Now sir , how wrought that same soueraigne fatherly authority , I meane that which issued from the prouision of man , and not from the sacred constitution of God ? why it wrought thus much , that this priuate discipline , did sometimes farre exceede the publick , insomuch , that wherein the Magistrates immediate authority seemed feeble and in a manner maymed , there the domestique discipline ( being appealed vnto as to an higher iurisdiction ) gaue present help and assistance ; that is to say , parents were able to doe more with their children , then law or legion , or Dictator himselfe . Cn. Martius Coriolanus marched forth with a dangerous army , against his country , breathing forth nothing but ruine and vastation , whomade him to disarme himself , forsake his ensignes , & leaue the commaund of the field but Veturia only ? He that neither yeelded to Senators sent vnto him , nor Magistrates , nor priests , yeelded to his mother . He that neither the Maiesty of the Empire , nor any touch of religion could cause once to retire , did soone relent at the name of his mother .

Cn. Seruilius , L. Sergius , M. Papirius , being Tribunes together , and in like authority , which was also Consular , were vehement competitors , which of them should be generall in the war against the Lucani : euery one was for himselfe : and thereupon despised the charge of the City as an office altogether thanklesse and base : the Senators beheld the contention with astonishment , Dictator was there none , that by strong hand might order these factious Tribunes , saith Q. Seruilius , nay sith there is no respect hereby carried to your owne ranke and quality , nor duty to the estate of this common wealth , my fathlery authority shal soone dispatch this controuersie . I tell you , my sonne without drawing of any lots for the matter , shal bide at home , and gouerne the City . And what did the Father of C. Flaminius tribune of the common people , which enacted the law about the partage of some french grounds , by the poll , the Senate was against it , his colleagues mainly opposed him , which he set light by , an army was mustred against him ( in case he should persist in that opinion ( but that danted him nothing , his father , euen as he was in the place to haue proclaimed his new made Law , seizes vpon him : how was it now with my yong master ? downe comes he from his chaire of estate , and this braue gallant that before set at nought all the maiesty , authority and prerogatiue of his country , is now subdued at a poore priuate mans check , and as M. Valerius storieth it in his fift booke , was not so much as once blamed for it , by the least muttering of the sessions so disappointed and broken vp . How then is it possible , but that in the point of parents authority , there should be more force in mans law than in the bare and simple precept as it was deliuered from God by Moses , especially if that be true which Halicarnassus reporteth that contempt , impiety , murdering of parents , were therefore ordinary monsters among the Greekes , but exceeding scarce and seldome to be found in Rome , because the authority which those ancient Law makers Charondas Pittacus and Solon , assigned to parents , was a mild and feeble regiment contrariwise that which Romulus gaue , was absolute , full , and without limitation , whence it came to passe that in all the large territory of the Romane Empire , hardly will you meete with one Malleolus that is , such a desperate ruffian as butchered his own mother ?

What then may we say of this diuine commandement established ( as we see ) neither by threat of abdication , nor losse of life ? here is only commanded that which honesty and good conscience perswades vnto . Nor let any man thinke that it is a good answer to the obiection to say that Moses Law , aswell as any other law , did not only sharply censure parricide , but euen euery dishonest and idle speech vttered by a sonne , for we intreat not , what authority a publique magistrate hath , neither of a iudiciall proceeding held in consistories , and common Assises , we talke of that which may be exercised at our home dwellings , in our owne priuate housholds , which fathers , not officers , by vertue of their office , challenge ouer their children , that is to say without appeale to any higher bench , without assistance of any other Iudges office ? For so it is , he that punisheth by the helpe of another , doth in deed not punish but complaine . But yet ouer and aboue al that which we haue already obiected against S. Gregory , it falls so short that parents by this heauenly oracle haue any more dominion ouer their children , than either by these , or other humane lawes , that in truth they cannot be said , to haue receiued thence any one iot of power or authority . For let a sonne be negligent in performing of that one command , honour thy father , what may the father doe in such a case ? It is true , it allures him with reward , that is , with a prosperous and a long life , but it puts ouer no punishment into the fathers hands , no none at all . As though in so doing , somewhat would be found , which nature of her self could not well abide . Did Moses then mistake , and when he deliuered Gods lawes was he somewhat more carelesse in this point which concernes Fathers ? A sinne it is so to say ; for this authority of parents , which wee seeke after , was for precedency of time farre more ancient than the commandement it selfe , which is demonstratiuely , proued by this very instance that God almighty , would neuer haue commanded Abraham to haue sacrificed his sonne Isaacke , if hee had had no commission of life and death ouer him . Would God haue enioyned it , would the father haue executed it , would neighbours and strangers haue endured it , which in no case at no time , by no law a father might bee able to iustifie ? besides they that liued long before Moses , would neuer haue busied themselus so much in matching of their children in wedlock : for that was a matter resting in their choyce , not in the choice of the parties contracting mariage , which sinne of theirs was cause of the vniuersal deluge ) nor wold the children bin so eager in pursuit of their parents blessing : and what shall we say more ? surely the bare enditement brought in by the father to the Magistrate , would neuer haue serued for a sufficient euidence against an vndutiful child , if euen in those dayes , the power of a father and his domestique discipline had not beene very transcendent . What shall wee say then ? Did God by his latter law repeale the former and confine this duety to an inhibition of wordes alone ? If the case were so , what then might wee say for Nazianzene ? Without doubt something might bee spoken for him , and very much , were it not , that the very selfe same Christian Religion , which in a manner we receiued from him , did in some sort now crosse the good Christian Bishops assertion . For this authority of parents ( if there be any such thing extant ) is so far reuolted from that which was ordained and established by God , by nature , by the Law of nations , and Law positiue , and that forsooth vpon no other occasion ( but that wee ( I cannot tell how ) seuer this filiall duetie from religion ) that among Christians now a dayes to be a Father , is nothing else but so to bee tearmed , the dutie is gone though the name continue . Can Christian religion then , and Gods heauenlie commandement , wich Saint Gregory so highly commendeth , maintaine the home discipline , if Christians bee the men which especially ouerthrow it ? But before we passe any further in the discourse , let vs satisfie this great Diuine , and then consider , whether it be true , that now a daies there is any authority left vs ouer our children or no , and if it bee any , and yet but of verie small esteeme , whether notwithstanding it bee such , or so much , as should be exposed to all contempt and wrong . Certaine it is , that the outragious cruelty which the ancient Lawmakers deuised to improue the power of parents withall , was but a cast of policy , that so in regard therof , either out of pure constraint , or of a ready mind , children might conforme themselues to better behauiour , and at no hand bee withdrawne from that reuerent obeysance , which naturall affection ( and no law nor ordinance of man ) taught them , as they were sucking of their mothers breasts . They in their wisedom knew right well , that youth was so prone to riot and lust , so arrogant and lasciuious in behauiour , so hard to bee tamed and menaged , that they concluded it to bee a case of meere necessity by way of enacting such terrible punishments , to renue and repaire that , which was so far corrupted and depraued from natures primitiue institution ; that as in old time they kept debters to their word by tearing their lims in sunder , & drawing bloud from them , & the like , so the very shew and representation of such horrible tortures and martyrdomes which parents might inflict vpon their children , might lesson them obedience and beare them downe , if they should euer attempt or vndertake any thing that past not first by their allowance and leaue , by whom they liued , & had their education : but yet thereby no checke was giuen to naturall affection , for it was to be intended that although parents might be so tender of their childrens good as to enter into such seuere termes of consultation for them , yet the law-makers neuer dreamed it would once so happen , which they permitted : that is , that a son might be sold by the father for a bond-slaue , disinherited , and then kild . Or if perchance it might so fall out , that it should be vpon such as had worthily deserued it , and with such circumstantiall considerations , that iustice her selfe , should sne haue giuen iudgement could neither haue said better , or done more vprightly . But God almighty handles matters otherwise , that which he commands is plainly set down , not with fetches and deuices . For hee needs no compassing or prefacing to perswade that to be iust and good which he once requires , he is so essentially good of himselfe , and hath such a prerogatiue of iustice and equity consubstantiall to him as his bare command necessarily enforceth our precise obedience . Religion keeps men more in aw , than feare : for were the son loose or dishonest , of conuersation , and for that cause oftentimes turnd out of doores , nay lastly refused of the parents for their child , because no gentle meanes preuailed ought with him ? Why if once he were conuerted to christianity presently ( saith Septimius ) he became to liue in good order , and good counsell regaind him to duty and obedience . Doubtlesse though God vnto these lawes of men and nature inserted also his heauenly behest , yet did he nothing thereby preiudice those former lawes ; he commanded obedience , but neuer abrogated any part of their authority . Nay long time after Christs passion , the commission of life and death which parents might exercise vpon their children , was still currant amongst Christians , and though the more ancient of them reproued some things amongst the Pagans , as the murdering of yong infants , the bloudy fencing of sword players , yet against that terrible authority of parents they spake not a word . And howsoeuer God in bare termes pronounced this Commandement , honour thy father and thy mother , yet notwithstanding for two reasons especiallie it farre exceeds the lawes of men . The one is , because what he commands is constant and perpetuall , but our lawes bee mutable and repealeable : if anything please vs to day , to morrow we are out of loue with it : a patterne whereof wee may see in that verie lawe which Romulus ordained . For at first without all exception or bar , it was free for a father to put his child to death . Afterwards it might not bee done but vpon the assistance and aduice of others , then the cause must bee heard iudiciallie : lastlie the magistrate might decide it , but no priuate iurisdiction , nay in conclusion that rigorous lawe , vtterlie vanished and became voide : the other is , because if the iniunction of a Consull bee greater , than the Pretors and the Pretors greater than an order of the Edilis , it will necessarilie follow , in good proportion , that the lawe of God is to bee preferred before any ordinance of man whatsoeuer . And why so ? because men in their wisedomes may erre , and therupon be of meane reputation by reason of such escapes & ouer sights , as saith the same Tertullian . In God there is no such matter ; so then S. Gregory who vnderstood this well enough , and was of opinion that this precept of our Lord God should be left at large , and neuer concluded by any limitation , ( when he had forsaken the world , against the will and expresse commandement of his father , and had betaken himselfe to a monastery , and had refused a Bishopricke which before was his fathers , yet at length he began to be toucht with a sence of inward regreeting : and can I ( saith he ) be vndutifull and disobedient vnto so good a father , and be blameles ; can I endure to be accused for a stubborne and contemptuous sonne , to be guilty of violating and distaining my natural obedience vnto my father ? and thereupon leauing the solitary life , he gets him home , accepts the sea and Bishopricke which had been before his fathers : and all this doe I ( saith he ) more for God almighties commandement sake , than for any feare of mortall men : therefore now good father , I pray giue me your blessing . And in this sence ( you see ) may S. Gregory be well vnderstood . For euen S. Chrysostome in his eleuenth booke against such as discommend the monasticall life , writes in this manner : Thy son loues and obserues , and honors thee , not because the law of nature enioynes him so to doe , but much more for that in so doing hee may testifie his duetie to the commandements of almighty God , for whose loue he hath perfitly despised and relinquisht all the world . But if notwithstanding all this , it be true , that now a dayes there be no trace left of this fatherly power which we so much hunt after , and if this home bred authority be scarce remaining in shadow or shew among vs , how may S. Gregory be then defended ? the power of life and death long since hath bin discontinued by an immemoriall custome to the contrary ( as before we mentioned ) you cannot pawne or sell your sonne , much adoe you will haue to disinherit him . If he get any thing it is for himselfe , his father hath no part nor property in it , hee will serue his father with processe , he will endite him at the common Assize without asking him any leaue . And in a word such is the religion now adaies , such is the Churches tradition ( as men say ) that let the sonne entet into any kind of life , bee married , bee a monke , or so forth , all this may he doe in spight of his fathers teeth , and absolutely against his will . How then ( good father Nazianzene ) or wherein stands that sanction so much inforced by God and nature , honor thy father . What didst thou see in that authority royall , and preheminence of parents when thou vpon a timorous scrupulositie of conscience durst not once so much as to trespasse against it . If in the cases before mentioned our children may disobey their parents , and yet not be punshed by them , put mee some cases out of the old law , why they shold not now enioy the like libertie ? or what be the principall points of this domestique monarchie , which the christian religion , doth yet retaine and defend for lawfull ? can it bee possible , that heathen parents haue punished euen to the pit of hell a shamelesse and vngratious sonne ( so far were they in loue with the childrens obedience ) it is a matter spoken of that father which ( as Pausanius relateth it in his tenth booke ) Polignotus drew in a picture of hell taking paines to bee his owne sonnes hangman for a speciall prancke of vndutifulnesse , that he had plaid him in his life time : And haue christians on the contrary inuented cases , to authorise vnnaturall impietie and breach of duty against parents ? can it be possible ( as saith Theophilus in his third booke to Eutol . ) that Platoes law for the communitie of wiues , was principallie vpon that point disliked , because the danger might be , that the sonne might somtime honor him that was not his father , and vpon ignorance at another time might also doe him no reuerence , who was his father indeed , ( a reuerence neuerthelesse so due by the rules of the lawe of nations , and in such order marshalled by them , that ( as Pomponius testifieth ) it is to be ranged in the second place , first God , after him our parents , and then our country ) and should we vnder colour of religion in that one point principallie offend . First and foremost , therefore we will speake thus much in generall ( as men do vse to sell wares in grosse that the position and assertion is very sottish and impious , because the gouernment of parents , is weakned and rebated in some points , and circled within an order , that , Ergo there is no such matter at all remaining , because the preheminence of parents is abrogated , ( to speake in the Romane dialect ) ergo it must follow there is no duty no naturall reuerence at all left vnto them . Then descending to particular dueties , wee will take a view , whether euery one of them bee so important , as that of pure necessitie parents ought to bee obeied in speciall or no ? Which will be soone found if we take some farther view , and make a quire , what that was which the ancients did so exactly require of their children when they past ouer such a large iurisdiction and power vnto the parents ; the case is cleere , that they did it not therefore , that parents should bee as magistrates to their children , and so administer iustice at home to euery one that their children had offended , againe as the Praetor did in the Court of the common pleas , nor that there should be one authority publique , another priuate and domestique . For if the crime were publicke , and committed without the verge of the fathers house , the officer was to order it . Nor is it a good conclusion , the child hath offended , therefore he must haue no other iudge but his father . Indeed it is true that there were such fathers in times past at Rome , and likewise amongst other nations ( whereof we haue written in the sixt book of our reports , the seuenth Chapter ) that by vertue of such fatherly authoritie , wold take cognisance of such crimes as their children had offended in abroad ; as Cassius , Manlius Torquatus , C. Flaminius and some others besides , ) so then this was no occasion , that gaue such a prerogatiue to the power of parents , but that rather which Halicarnasseus in the life of Romulus alleadgeth , that when children did perceiue , how they were awed at home and that their subiection vnder their priuate parents , was much more strict than vnder the publique Magistrate , ( for they are commanded first to yeeld obedience to their parents , after that to their country ) that the Prince himselfe might scarce doe any thing without iudiciall proceeding . But the father might do euery thing at his own will & pleasure ( for so speaks Aristotle in his politiques ) they might learne to be more dutifull to doe nothing without line and leuell , that is , without expresse commandement and iniunction from their parents , might neither will , nor nil ought , saue that which proceeded first from their parents pleasure and by his allowance . In a word , that as the bit , spur , and switch , makes the horse obedient to his rider , so the feare of so great chastisements might enforce the sonnes conformity to his father , as to a demie God on earth , and sole founder of his being And surely , had our forefathers meant no other thing hereby then to put a snaffle into youthes mouth , to restraine them from such vices as nature is prone vnto , why then they would haue determined this their authoritie , at some certaine time or age of the sonne , vpon some certaine office or honour , that might haue befallen , or some condition and estate of life whereunto they might possiblie be aduanced . But the sonne , were he neuer so old , bare he neuer so great office , yea had it been the high Priesthood , was euer notwithstanding vnder his fathers checke . And what thinke you was the issue thereof ? marry sir , whatsoeuer the father had once determined concerning his children , to what kind of life soeuer he had bound them , yea and though it had been to the cart and plough , as L. Manlius did vse his sonne , why by reason of so eminent a power , against which there was no helpe , no remedie to be had , he must of necessity rest content . Hence it was that all the sonnes negotiations had such dependance on the fathers will , as you see counterpaines haue , that must accord with their originalls , or riuers haue , that must be fed from their fountaines head . And though ( put case ) the sonne swaruing some deale from this course of duty , as being stubborne and past all shame , found his penalty thereupon executed , sometime with more rigour , sometimes with more clemency , though the father by the ordinances of some countries might sentence his sonne to death , by others complaine of him to the magistrate , and only giue in euidence against him ●ay though by long prescription these domestique censures haue been altogether disused . For to small purpose is their instance , and ( God knowes it is a poore one ) that alleadge why but yong children be still yet vnder their parents correction : it will be no good inference to conclude that therefore it is not now any longer iust and reasonable because law had once determined it to be so ; it will be no good inference to conclude , that the law and edict of all nations , which decrees an absolute obedience to parents , is now clearely vanished and out of vse . Lawes be lawes still , though they be not penall , though there be no losse of life nor forfeiture of goods ensuing : as for example , adultery though there be smal adoe made about it , now adaies , yet in its owne nature , it is alwaies foule and dishonest . If either by negligence or coniuencie it be not sharply punished , the law notwithstanding is stil chast and honorable which forbids it . And so the law for childrens obedience , is euer right & conuenient , though many times no penaltie ensue This is euident specially out of Moses . it is true , he would not that a father should put his child to death with his owne hands , but rather seeke for it by petition from the magistrate , and so haue it executed , and that also without any other enquest , or euidence , than at the fathers suit : from whence it is more then probably collected , that in the common wealth of the Iewes the father had a soueraigne authority , in cases of life and death , for although by this order of Moses , it were somewhat staid from speedy execution , yet the matter is plaine , that it is easier for me to bee a petitioner that another man should be executed and die , than that I should be his executioner with mine owne hands . But howsoeuer , I would faine know and learn , why and for what offence a father might endite his sonne , by this Hebrew Law-makers decree , that vpon such conuiction he might be presently stoned to death . Was it because he was a murtherer a Church-robber , a traitor , a theef , a fornicator , or an vsual offendor against the peace of the King , his crown and dignity ? Let vs heare his owne words deliuered to this purpose :

If any man haue a sonne that is stubborne and disobedient , which will not harken to the voice of his father , nor the voice of his mother , and they haue chastised him and he would not obey them .

Then shall his father and his mother take him , and bring him out vnto the Elders of his Citie , and vnto the gate of the place where hee dwelleth :

And shall say vnto the Elders of his City , this our sonne is stubborne and disobedient , and he will not obey our admonition , he is a robber , and a drunkard .

Then all the men of the Citie shall stone him with stones vnto death .

I pray what manner of offences be there herein mentioned ? be they not trespasses against parents , priuate misdemeanours and domesticall , hatcht within doores , not acted in publique view ? certainly as by order of military discipline contempt in a souldier is a crime very capitall , because there is nothing so far endangers the state of an army , as one mutinously disposed , so by the same correspondencie of reason , it is fit and requisite that all persons belonging to my charge , as my seruants , my children , my wife , my cattell , all should be at my becke , all should be vnder my conduct as the chiefe generall , all should be actuated by my motion , as hauing surrendred the interest of their liberty into my plenary disposition and authority . Aelianus tells vs a story of one Rhaco Mardus , who hauing brought his sonne Cartomes like a prisoner with his armes fast pinacled into the presence of King Artaxerxes to receiue iudgement of death , vpon suggestion that he was a gracelesse desperate castaway , and grew to be very earnest to that point , why ( saith the King of Persia ) canst thou endure to behold thy sonnes life taken from him ? his answer was , I haue in my garden a lettice rudely ouergrowne with leaues , and though they be lims of the bodie , yet doe I now and then crop off and prune some of the bitter stalkes , and such as may be spared : What doth my lettice thinke you die for griefe vpon the matter , or doth it mourne , because there is a limbe or two lopt off ? nay , it flourisheth the better and such a maim makes him eat a great deale the sweeter . In like manner may it please ( you O King ) to deeme of me , for albeit I shall see and behold the death of this wretched varlot that hurts and anoies my household , corrupts , by his stubborne and lewde example his poore yong brethren , I will neuerthelesse be still of the opinion to speed the better by it , yea and rather thriue by such a maim than any waies be endamaged by it , and this is sutable to that of M●s●s and Halicarnasseus . But that I may the better proue this point , how is it that this question , namelie whether a sonne , in some case may lawfullie disobey his father , first stepping aside out of priuate mens houses , entred into the publique schooles of the vniuersitie , to bee disputed and questioned there , and after to be decided finallie at the seat of iudgement , but that it was neuer in mans memorie heard of before , nay the contrarie was euer held for certaine and true , that such a question would neuer haue been propounded ? when Danaus much against his will , had matcht his fiftie daughters to Egisthus his grandchildren , and had charged the yong virgins that on the mariage day euerie one should murther hir husband with such a sword , as to that end he had giuen them , ( the iust like tale may you read in Chalcondilas , of a Physition of Florence that commanded his daughter to poison Lantislaus King of Naples the first night they should lie together ) euerie one did as their father had enioined them excepting only Hypermnestra which saued her husband Lynceus his life . But what followed hereupon ? these murderous paricides were so far from being brought , to answer the law and plead not guiltie for the matter , or that their obedience herein was deemed culpable , that contrariwise Hypermnestra , for that she had not performed hir fathers behest , was thereupon publiquelie arraigned , and much adoe to be freed at the common Assis●s , so that in point of obedience vnto parents no exception wold be taken , to haue denied them or to haue doubled with them had vtterlie been vnlawfull . The truth is , freed she was , but the verdict was brought in vpon euen voices , with such demurring , and so much hazard of life , ( the record is famously knowne by her owne letter in Ouid ) that as though she had escaped some dangerous shipwracke , she built a Temple vnto Venus and Diana , and hung vp a table in memoriall of her deliuerie . How then should that domestique dutie be blemisht or broken , when children though they had offended in obeying , their obedience notwithstanding , was vnto them their chiefest commendation , their refusall a crime vtterlie vnpardonable . That great Oracle of the Law Vlpian holds this opinion , that he may not properlie be said , to haue any will of his owne that liues vnder commaund of a father or master , and well worthie is he of pardon ( as he thinkes ) in this case , that pretends necessarie obedience for his excuse . L. 11. F. de his qui notantur infamia . And question lesse Tiberius was of the same mind , that a sonne might by no meanes refuse the command of his father . But howsoeuer , it hath been alwaies held ( saith Gellius ) be the thing honest which is commanded , or be it indifferent , the obedience thereunto ought to bee absolute . Be it dishonest and against good manners , yet the care must be neuerthelesse such so not to obey , as that it bee done with a modest and lowly behauiour , notwitha vaine of tart reprehension , or refusall , or the least shew of dislike . Respite the doing of it for a time or put it off handsomelie , rather than refuse to doe it , let there appeare a maidenlie bashfulnesse in a constant deniall , and let the sonne discouer some zeale that he would fain obey his father , when he obeieth him not . As Agesilaus did , who when his father charged him that he should giue a sentence against law , marry father saith he I well remember , that long since you willed me to be euer for the law , I will therefore at this time not doe that which you command me now , but that which was your pleasure I should haue done long agoe . And as Acrotatus did , of whom when his parents required some thing vniustlie hee denied it honestlie in this manner : I know you would haue me to doe that which is honest and iust , for so you bred me vp ( I thanke you ) I will therefore doe that which you once willed me to do , but that which you now command , I may not . He that should openlie gainesay and arrogantlie oppose himselfe against his father , should proue no better than a malepert wicked vngratious impe . Euen in a good cause , a sonnes speech towards his parents should be humble and reuerent , ( as Saluianus saith ) for how else should that be true , which our forefathers were wont prouerbiallie to speake , a man may wrong his dutie , by the cast of his countenance , if by any law in the world a sonnes disobedience were maintainable . Should the person of an Embassador be sacred , and inuiolable , among enemies , and must you spare to vse the least word of disgrace against him ? and would you haue the master of a familie entertaine , and harbour within his owne walls , vnder the roofe of his owne house , one authorized to be his comptroller , his checkmate , nay his profest mortall enemie ? but why bestow we so much time , and proofe about this position ? forsooth to this end , to make good the deuise and plot of this domestique authoritie , that in case children should obiect or pretend ought against it , all passages of contradicting or questioning might hereby be preuented : for it is an obligation wherein wee are bound to nature , and the condition is that we be euersubiect to our parents It is holie and acceptable , not only before God , but euen amongst men , that children should be obedient vnto their parents in singlenesse of heart and without all malice , as saith Theophilus to Eutolicus . And whereas almighty God added nothing besides the bare and simple commandement to threaten the offendor , he did it vpon this reason , that he thought it sufficient for him briefly to comprize that , which otherwise was naturall among all men and notoriously knowne in their conscience well enough to be a true , vnchangeable , & perpetuall notion . To the intent therefore , that we may shew that this authoritie of parents streams foorth from natures spring tell me , is there any reason to be giuen , that a woman should be more in subiection to a man than a child is to his parents ? why ; but a woman in respect of the sole infirmitie of her sex is subiect to a man , and there is no other reason but the sonne owes him double seruice , the one in respect of disparitie of yeers , between them , the other in respect of his fathers goodnes towards him . But grant there be no fee of duetie to bee acknowledged : for the first , which is ods of age , and when once they come to strength and full yeares , in Gods name cancell that obligation ; ( and yet Aristotle will tell you , that such prerogatiues of aduantage can neuer be determined ) I would faine know of what sort you take this last to bee . I meane a parents bounty , and whether that may expire by any age or time : t is a doctrine of naturall reason , that wee are bound to requite them which haue beene good vnto vs : for in this point none can be of a contrarie opinion to Vlpian , ( and as it is fairely deliuered by Philo , ) the vnthankefull man sinnes against humanity , if according to the meanes of his abilitie , he require not kindlie a benefite receiued ; nay , not to returne one good turne for another , in the sense of Saint Ambrose , is little better than wilfull murther . Well then , but there is no greater obligation , than that which is due from children to their parents , after God they be our Gods ; that wee are , that wee liue , and moue , t is the bounteous gift of our deare parents , and such a gift as may admit no manner of recompence , for it can neuer bee possible , that the sonne should beget his Father : now concerning the mothers tender care and diligence , what thinke you of the sweet food wherewith shee nurses her poore infant ? what thinke you of those pretty louelie iniuries which the innocent Babe manie times doth to his mother ? as soone as hee is thirstie , the mothers dugge is ready to giue him drinke ; and before they breede teeth , they meete that with their lippes , which needes no chewing ; as he speakes , that is the supposed author of Saint Ieromes epistle , De honor and is parentibus , for the honouring of parents ; and he addes moreouer , that for this cause parents ought to bee dearely esteemed of their children , because they can neuer bee repaired by any other ; for when once the law of all flesh hath taken them out of this world , a man shall neuer bee able to finde another father or mother ; then what a diuelish ingratitude were it ( as that other Plato saith right well ; ) If we for great matters cannot finde in our hearts to bestow small trifles ? for manie benefites a few poore retributions ? whatsoeuer to the vttermost of our power wee should render to them of what value were it ; what scale would it beare being compared with this light which wee see , this education which we haue , this Country which we enioy , this natiue Country wherein wee liue , those large possessions from Fathers and Grandfathers , lineally discended vpon vs , which must maintaine vs & ours : for al these we are tenants in fee , and holde them from our parents donation . ( Let Seneca speake his pleasure to the contrarie , he speakes but like a disputer ; ) but what saith the great Doctor Origen , who when hee speakes well , no man speakes better : hee in his eleuenth Homily vpon Leuiticus , writes in this wise : The name of a father is a great misterie , the name of a mother is a concealed reuerence , God is thy spirituall father , and heauenly Ierusalem is thy mother . First , God thy father that created thy soule , and therehence it is said , I haue begotten sonnes and exalted them ; secondly , thy bodilie father , is thy father , by whose meanes thou wast borne and begotten in the flesh , and camest into this world , that bare thee in his loines . Now then , because the name of a father is so sacred and venerable , therefore whosoeuer shall curse his father , shall die the death . In like sort must wee imagine of our mothers also , by whose labour & care we were borne , and bred vp , wherefore as the Apostle saith , thou oughtest to be reciprocally thankefull to thy parents , for if thou dishonour thy carnall father , his contempt reflecteth vpon thy spirituall father , and if thou iniurie thy mother , that iniury redoundeth to the heauenly Ierusalem , therfore at no hand must wee be at variance , or contestation with our parents , no not so much as in word . He is thy father , she is thy mother , let them in Gods name doe and saie as they please , they know well enough what is fitting to be done . As for vs be we neuer so obsequious and dutifull to them , yet shall we come short , of that full measure of thankfulnesse , which we owe them , for our birth , for our bearing , for the fruition of this glorious sweet light which we behold , for our food , and lastly for the course of institution ( perhaps as it may so fall out ) in some of those learned and liberall sciences , nay oftentimes they be the cause , that wee come to the knowledge of God , that we frequent his Church and heare the word of his heauenly law . Now if this instinct which proceeds from God and nature , and this kind retaliation of benefits be found euen in sencelesse and bruit beasts , then should man , whom the graces haue fostered , to whom curtelie and good manners is hereditarie , be worse than a lion , a Storke , a parde ? for of the piety of Storkes and Swallowes , S. Ambrose speakes excellentlie in his fift booke of the Exam●ron the sixteenth and seuenteenth Chapters , and if so be ( as Epictetus will haue it ) that nature is not ouer curious , of what qualitie or condition thy father be , be he good or bad , base or honorable , he is still thy father , the obligation which thou enterest into by being his sonne can neuer become voide Can then any doubt be made , whether his will and commandement be in all cases to be fulfilled ? the verie person of parents and patrons should be alwaies religiously honored , and obserued of the sonne and the freed man , as Vlpian the father of the Law hath adiudged it . But put case that the sonne should obiect that , which Diogenes sometimes did obiect to Zeno. That children were nothing beholding to their parents for their begetting , because that proceeded rather from a passion of pleasure and sence than from any sound loue or good affection . He that imploies himselfe about the begetting of children lest of all intends that which he goes about , he heeds not procreation , but the satisfying of his owne appetite and voluptuous desire . Indeed this were well spoken for a Cynicke , and well said to turne away the imputation from bruite beasts and put it vpon men ; yet euen verie beasts when by course of nature and season of the yeere , they couple together for breed , do it more to reare their yong than for any rage of sensuall appetite , ( as Athenagoras thinks ) t were Well , if there were no ods between their copulation and our mariages , if matrimonie proceeded whollie from the law of nature , taught in generall to all liuing creatures , not from the law of nations peculiar onlie to men of reason : or that now it were no longer held for a matter of high misterie amongst vs christians , but of shame and dishonor : not a league of loue to liue together in the estate of holy wedlocke , but some partnership , or conspiracie rather to the satisfying of brutish lust , and carnalitie . But such mens iudgements concerning mariage , comes either from ignorance , as not knowing what it meanes , or from some tedious discontent , which they find in liuing single . But Socrates in Zenophon hath giuen Diogenes his answer in this point to the full . For ( saith he ) why should men marrie , if children were begotten to satisfie sensuality : cannot the fire of lust be quenched except ye first must needs marrie ? but now , in that we are content to vndertake the yoke of mariage , ( which I must needs say lies heauy vpon some of vs ) we do it to multiplie the world by propagation of children . For were it otherwise , we would neuer be so curious about the matter , I warrant you , to enquire of what age she was whom we meant to marrie , of what house she came , what good conditions she had , we would neuer bee so carefull , for the education of our children borne vnder that mariage , giue them such meanes for their institution , take so much deliberation for their matching afterwards , if lust and pleasure had been our onelie ends and respects . Far more diuine was that conceit of Philo in a dialogue of his concerning mariage , who expresseth himselfe thus , Parents when they beget children , be deputie officers , and vicegerents vnder God , both serue and be subordinate for procreation , the one frames the body , the other workes the soule : and therefore Ignatius writing to the Philadelphians tearmeth parents fellow labourers with God , in which sense man is the liuelie image , and counterfeit of God , as Clemens Alexandrinus reporteth in his eleuenth booke of Institutions . Therefore neglect one , neglect both : condemne the vnderworkman , and set at nought the master workman himselfe . Nay saith Philo , they be not workmen , they be euen Gods amongst vs , and when they beget their children , they represent one God , that is from all eternitie not begotten . The difference is , God is the creator vniuersall , man the indiuiduall , God of all creatures , man of his children only : whereupon it followeth , in his opinion necessarilie , that he must needs be implous , against the inuisible , and incomprehensible God , that is carelesse in performing all good offices , and duties to these inferior Gods our parents , that liue amongst vs , be euer in our eie , and in our familiar acquaintance . The very same witnesseth S. Iohn in his first epistle and fourth Chapter , If any man say , I loue God , and hate his brother , hee is a lier , for how can hee that loueth not his brother , whom he hath seene , loue God whom hee hath not seene ? for loue God and the sparkes of loue will be kindled towards your neighbour : loue your neighbour and then your loue to God ward will be in a burning fire , as Gregory the great speaketh in the seuenth of his Moralls , the tenth Chapter Nay besides all this , Moses that gaue lawes to the Iewes , in deliuering his holy ordinances , marshalleth the honour due vnto God in the first table , but repeating afterwards in Leuiticus the verie same precepts , he begins with the honor due vnto parents , requiring vs to yeeld them honor and obedience : afterwards in a second place he commands the same for God , as who should say , they be both Gods alike and the definitions are but one in sence and signification , he that honors his father and mother , honours God , and he that honours God , by an infallible consequence , honoreth his parents also . Most certaine it is , that when Zenocrates the Philosopher , wrote ; that the Athenians kept most religiously in their Temple of Eleusis , three fundamentall precepts , whereunto their vse was to reduce all such lawes as euer Treptolemus had made for them : the first begins with parents , ( as S. Ierome testifieth writing against Iouinian ) saying honour thy parents , worship thy God , abstain from flesh meat . And that most diuine Plato , who may truly be stiled another Moses , after that he had written many things concerning God , why saith he , these be no lawes , but the preambles and prefaces to such lawes , as we intend to make for the honor of parents . Marke , how he that sayes the father must be worshipped deduceth his premisses from God himselfe . What an holy speech was this in comparison of that of Telencer , who though he knew the nature of this dutie well enough , being on a time demanded why the yong men of Lacedemon rose vp , and gaue place to their ancients , made this answer , that being trained vp so in ciuilitie towards strangers , they might be more apt to honour their parents also ? Tertullian in his booke of praier , is verily of the opinion that the name of a father is a name of reuerence and authority , and he which should attempt to take away dutie from children , or gouernment from parents , or vpon partialitie leane more to the one than the other , he in so doing , should take away both , and rob parents of that preheminence which the Lawes of God , nature , and men haue euer inuested them with . So then if we must still continue this dutie towards our parents , euer be heedful to obserue and keep it , why may wee not conclude the same for parents auhoritie ouer vs , in this manner . Children must alwaies honor their parents , ergo parents must euer command their children . These sweete louing affections were both iointlie worshipt in one oratorie by the old Romans , and in my fancie should not now bee sequestred from being mutuallie dependant one to the other . For my better proofe herein , I would pray leaue a little to examine an argument of Tertullians , and to consider the necessity of his illation wherby he will demonstrate Christ to be God , yet not God the father , but God the sonne . I am not come saith Christ to do mine owne will , but the fathers that sent me , this did he euer fulfill euen to his death . Hereupon he infers the conclusion ergo he was not the father but the sonne . Now sir , how could this argument follow if the sonnes will should be distinct or any other , than the fathers wil ? what maiestie or honor were there added vnto God , in calling him a father ( wee haue no name else whereby to know or expresse him ) if there were no proper or naturall signification for the name to this purpose ? if there were no more difference betwixt parents & children , but a nominall distinction , and the diuersitie to rest onlie in name , but no title of authoritie or iurisdiction ? but now a daies where can you find anie other difference for fathers at this time to emancipate or enfranchize their children , is held not necessarie If my sonne could speake as soone as he were borne , I thinke this would be his language , Sir I acknowledge you thus far foorth for my father , as to giue me maintenance and bring me vp . I came a free man into the world and if I liue but one welue or fourteene yeers to an end , I hope to sue out my liuerie for my wardship . If I can but keepe my hands from doing violence to your person , I am sure though in other matters I proue respectiue or vndutifull , no man will much complaine of me . The power and authoritie of you parents is cleane reuersed , and abrogated . Now should you threaten him with some curse or reuenge that would follow vpon this contempt , this answer would be , t is a long while ere that comes Sir , and I shall loose nothing by the forbearance . But if so be this thorow perswasion did sinke into mens hearts , that he that offended his father offended God , that to be excluded from the fathers presence , were aboue all other punishments the chiefest , in briefe , if the sonne could be made to to vnderstand how dreadfull the bitter curse of a father were ( whereof we may chance to speake somewhat more at large hereafter , ) why these might be sufficient props to defend and keepe vp , this excellent fabrique of rule and authoritie which in these daies is so much ruinated and decaied . But now ( such is our corruption ) all this will not serue the turne , that ancient seueritie of the Romanes would better preuaile with them , that is , they should neuer be brought to anieiudiciall trial for the matter , but be condemned and neuer heard speake , which is a course of proceeding that Halicarnesseus and Quintilian oftentimes mention . And why ? because a common-wealth is nothing else but a bodie incorporate of so many priuate families , and so founded & begun by parents , that as ( me thinks the resemblance were not much vnfit ) to terme a family the nurse , the wombe , and the roote of a common wealth : contrariwise a common wealth , a swarme , or colonie deduced from a priuate familie . He therefore that will gouerne a common wealth in good fashion , and banish al loose & dissolute behauiour thence and all crimes and exorbitant offences , let him looke first to good order at home . If he can make them lowlie , sober , and dutifull within doores , they will come into the world , so nurtered , so taught , so affected , well may they change their homes , they will be sure neuer to leaue their old manners . Contrariwise , let him looke careleslie to it , let him but once suffer the reines to be at libertie , presentlie shall you see treasons , murders , rapes , adulteries , gush out in large swelling streames , and surround the countrrie . And this is the cause ( if I be not mistaken ) why in ancient time they appropriated to priuate families peculiar gods , taking it for good policie , to countenance the infirmitie of domesticall iurisdiction , with the authoritie of diuine religion , that both these two like mighty cable ankors , might hold them in all tempest fast to their obedience . That euen as the tender infant , ledde and guided by the little finger , is able afterwards of himselfe to walke without a guide ; so comming to mans estate , the meanes of this priuate education , might awe and order him in the Common wealth , to carrie a due respect to the Magistrate , but not to dread his person , as hauing the sword borne before him to grace his office withall , not to terrifie well-doers . But verily in mine opinion there can bee nothing more absurd or incongruous , than once to thinke that Religion is any way assistant to this good order ; for ( if it be true , which before I toucht ) certes Christian Religion as it is vsed , doth more suppresse and pul down , than either establish or set vp this authority of parents : and there is nothing so much withdrawes our children from duetie and obedience as those two precepts of the first and second Table , which now a daies men make meere contradictories , Honour God , and honour thy parents . It s a maruellous matter , that whereas euer heretofore these two commandements , held good correspondency with each other , and might both be fulfilled together , they should now bee tearmed opposite , and so repugnant one to the other , that hee which fulfilles the one , must of necessity breake the other . But whence come these strange & newfound problemes ? Marry Sir I will tell you , euen from the disputes of our ancient Philosophers that wrangled about this question , whether at all times , and in all matters , we ought to obey our Fathers commandements ? for as there haue been some that handled this question iust as Bias did the question of sacriledge ; there is no body , saith Bias , that is sacrilegious , for if some God or other be resiant in euery place of the world , then doth a thiefe conuey nothing out of one hallowed place , which hee carrieth not into some other hallowed place ; so haue some of our Philosophers vsed the like subtlety in treating the matter of this power of parents . There is no necessity ( say they ) why you shold obey your parents : for either they command that which is iust , and we must doe it , not because they commaund it , but because it is iust ; or els they commaund that which is vnlawfull , and we may not doe it , not because they commaund it , but because it is vnlawfull . Whereupon the conclusion followes , ergo there is no obedience due to them at all ; yea but Gellius replies , the Dilemme is not perfect , for that some things are of a newter and indifferent nature , wherein we must obey them absolutelie , and some things are in their own nature good , and honest which we are the more bound to do , because they commaund them . Some distinguish otherwise ; in some cases wee must obey , in others wee may not . For , what if my father should commaund mee to plot treason against my Country , to murther my mother , to kill my Prince , or facts of the like detestable and impious nature . Right so , whilest the Schoole Diuines began to argue , whether one might serue God and man , or whether God were to bee serued before father ( as though there were any question to be made of it , but God must , without all exception bee obeide , when the matter commaunded tends to impietie ) they fell fowle vppon the same tenents , with the Philosophers , which were verie vncertaine , idle , and blasphemous . In good south , I hate not the person of any man that makes difference betwixt honest and vnhonest , lawfull and vnlawfull , nor yet them neither , which make some things neuter and indifferent . The opinion in some sort is to bee excused : but without doubt , the safer way had been , neuer to haue stirred in the matter , that is , if they had not reuolted from those mens iudgements , which helde the question affirmatiuelie , and without distinction , that parents in all things were to be obeide . For say it be true , which by a cauilling distinction they haue put vpon vs , yet to my thinking they haue no sound footing to stand vpon for it : and to speake my opinion , the determination of such questions is exceeding dangerous . How much more cautelous and circumspect then was Philo , writing vpon the decalogue , when treating of the two first commandements of the two Tables , he saith ( as his manner is to doe all things ) most diuinelie : they that leauing all other affaires of the world , bestow themselues wholly vpon contemplation , or they that abandoning all deuotion , apply themselues to action wholie to obserue their parents disposition , conforming themselues respectiuelie to liue in the world , as though they would bee taken apart , either for Gods seruants in the one , or mens friends and followers in the other : I tell you these mens vertues are but perfect by the halfes : nay , he that offends against either partie offends against both . Doubtlesse some such matters there be which will neuer bee drawne to anie manner of mediocritie or indifferencie , but presentlie they doe some harme or other : for doe but shake them a little , & they stagger presentlie ; bring them to the touch , you will finde they cannot endure the triall . These diminitiue questions be like fine cates , for as the more dainetie and delicate they be , do sooner putrifie and corrupt in the stomacke , so these if they be too much minsed and refined , they mar the generall tenant which is defended of all men . Whether the Bishop of Rome be aboue or vnder a generall Councell , whether the Emperor be aboue the people , whether democracie be better then monarchie , whether in religion contrarietie of sects may be tollerated , at first sight , they be set forth with a maruellous faire show , but if you marke them well , there is poison serued in , when you come to the reckoning . For vpon these and such other like disputes , euerie day ensue , schismes , seditions , ciuill wars , & this question now in handling , is much after the same sort . For he that once made but a doubt whether the dutie and respect which we owe to our parents were to binde vs for terme of life , and not rather of Turuus his opinion maintained against Tarquinius ) that there was no such summary proceeding , as when father and son were parties , where the issue was soone tried , if he be vndutifull , fare him wel , and al ill luck go with him . Make but the least breach into the fort of naturall dutie , ye shall presentlie see how he falls to railing , and reuiling , to stabbing , nay to murthering of it . And so hauing begun with his father , he is like enough to finish it with insurrection against his Prince . This then was euer a maine determination , amongst the ancient philosophers , that obedience in all things was precisely to be yeelded vnto , when our parents required it . Or put case , any inconuenience should happen thereupon , better were it to admit the proposition , in termes of largest extent , than out of any priuate or particular case to argue against a common and receiued opinion , and to determine it accordinglie , either in schooles , consistories , or pulpits . And this doth Cicero wifely obserue in his booke of offices , yee shall not find anre such question in all his booke : he was euer resolute and confident vpon the point , that children must not be their parents master , nor subiects their Princes , nor schollers their teachers , nor seruants their Lords : not , but that sometimes they far surpasse them for wit and pregnant discourse , but that it cannot be auoided but that iniuries and contempts will be offered , when such comparison and opposition of persons is once endured . Let authoritie be once disgraced , and farewell authority . When in a great session of the Centumuiri holden at Rome , Accia Variola , went about to disproue the will of her father , which somtimes had borne the office of a Pretor there , for that he had bequeathed vnreasonable legacies to her stepmother , there came to the hearing of the cause so many fathers together with their children , vpon a feare and expectation of which side the fathers or the daugters , the sentence should passe , that the Iudges ( as Plinie reports ) like wise men left the matter as they found it . For no other occasion than this , least peraduenture if iudgement had been giuen for the daughter , other children by her example might in time presume to contest with their parents . But to come neerer to the matter , in these like questions , I would faine learne whom we should follow , prophane Philosophers , or the blessed Apostle Saint Paul who in his Epistle to the Colossians , aduiceth thus , Children obey your parents in all things , for this is pleasing with God , where when he expresly setteth downe in all things , hath he not vtterly excluded , those two parts of the distinction , In some things you must obey ; in some things you may chuse whether you will obey or no ? and the conclusion withall , we be not bound to obey ? nay but why did God the father of all parents , forbid Adam to eate of the fruit of the tree in the midst of the garden , but that he would trie whether Adam would obey him in all things or no , as saith Theophilus to Eutol ? nor is the obiection worth the standing vpon : why but what if the father should command any treasonable practise or attempt against the estate ? because here is a case put which neuer happens at the hundreds end , or so seldome , that it would be past ouer in silence , and neuer more lookt after . Nay contrarie wise , ( as I should thinke ) the presumption is strong and holds for the father , what manner a man soeuer he be ; good or bad that he will neuer command his sonne , that which he in his conscience knowes to be fowle and dishonest . Yea let the mother be neuer so lasciuiouslie giuen , yet will she traine vp her daughter in chaste and vertuous demeanour . Moreouer , he that argues this act of a fathers command makes that a reason for his allegation , which is mainly against all reason , that is , he supposes old men doting fooles , and yong men graue counsellors : he makes the sonne iudge whether the fathers actions be lawfull or against law , good in their owne nature , or by his construction and surmise . And all this can neuer agree to discretion , and honesty . For so he sowes matter of question and debate , where indeed the only vertue should be ( the vertue so highly esteemed of the noble Lacedemonians ) to yeeld obedience and that readilie . But because error is growne potent , and hath giuen such a deepe wound as the scarre will hardlie be couered ouer , let vs a little by the way consider what were those neuter and indifferent things which Gellius speaketh of ? to my remembrance they be these , as if ( saith he ) thy father bid thee to be a souldier , to till his land , to be an officer , to be an aduocate , to marrie a wife , to goe vpon his errand , come when thou art sent for , and such like , which in themselues be neither good nor bad , but as the intent is and manner of doing them , so may they merit blame or commendation . For if the father should charge me to marry a wife that were infamous , past all shame , or disparagious for any enormious crime , if he would haue me plead Catiline or Bibulus , or Clodius his cause , then were his commandement herein not indifferent because here is a troupe of dishonesty one vpon the necke of another . So that if his pleasure were to enioin me such actions , the question were at an end , how far forth I should obey him : were it not that the thing which Gellius plainly pronounceth for indifferent , as to marrie a wife , to enter into this or that kind of life , now adaies are taught to be of such nature , that consent & authoritie of father is nothing thought of or respected in them : my sonne may marrie , may be a Church man , may be a monke , not onlie without my leaue , but spight of my teeth though I doe expresly forbid him , and that which all Vniuersities , all Consistories , all opinions , of learned men , without any interruption or impediment haue euer permitted in fauour of naturall dutie , that doe these men , vnder pretence of faith and religion , vtterlie reuerse and disanull . But our ensewing discourse shall speciallie in this place be confined within the compasse of religious vowes , wherin I must haue leaue to tell thee , that either thou art in falt that without any priuity or consent of mine betookest thy selfe thus to the Iesuits order ; or I am to be blamed that notwithstanding holy Church affoords thee such a libertie , grieue and take on for the same . For as concerning the argument of mariage & the freedom thereof , whether parents haue any voice in their childrens bestowing , our countriman Paquerius hath written so learnedlie thereof in his Epistles , as who should but offer to adde one line , to that which he hath written of that subiect , might rather preiudice his owne iudgement , than any way the picture drawne by the pencill of so curious a workman . I must needs confesse that the determination of the Bishops assembled in the Councell of Trent makes much for my contryman his purpose , that although clandestine contracts , made without the parents aduise and leaue ) stand for good mariage till the Church disalow them , yet neuerthelesse for many weighty and important considerations , the Church thought it best altogether to interdict and disauow them . It seems she would haue a reseruation in her selfe to determine the controuersie , and not permit it ouer to the arbitrement of parents , whether such mariages were good and according to lawe , or contrarily void and of none effect . I must likewise grant that sundry constitutions enacted heretofore by many of our christian Princes in their Diets and Parliaments , are pregnant for his purpose , namely that such matches are no better than a rape and no mariage at all , or if it be , they take order to vndoe the mariage knot with the point of an imperiall sword . Yet for all that which Paquerius hath written about the question , I would pray leaue to adde two notable precedents , not with that selfe conceipt or arrogancie , as though I meant to confirme or confute ought about the contract of maiarge , which either the Church or our most illustrious Princes haue beene pleased hitherto in their excellent wisedomes to determine , but that our children might hereby know and be well instructed , that all that is according to lawe , is not therefore by and by according to honestie , least perhaps that contempt and neglect which now they measure vnto vs , be afterwards by a iust sentence of reuenge written in heauen , measured by their children vnto them also . The one example is of Rebecca , and the woman of Timnath , both which although God had appointed the one for Sampson , and the other for Isaacke , yet it pleased him notwithstanding that these marriages should first be made by the aduise and liking of their parents , that Rebecca should be demanded of Bathuel , of the mother , and of the Vnckle , yet so , as Abraham the father must giue charge about the message , and not the sonne Isaacke , thou shalt be discharged from my oath , saith Abraham to his seruant , if thou goe vnto my country and to my kinsfolke , and they shal not giue her vnto thee . The Angell of the Lord made way to these mariages , but their parents contracted them ; The other example is of Tertullian in a treatise written to his wife : Oh how shall I be able ( saith he ) worthily to describe and set foorth the blessed estate of that couple , whom the Church hath ioined together , praier and thanksgiuing haue confirmed , angels in heauen proclaimed , and the father in earth approued , for euen here in the world children may not marrie without their parents consent and approbation , either in respect of due solemnitie or force of law . Doubtlesse his meaning hereby was , that mariage among Christians had better successe and prosperity when first it was approued by almighty God , as hauing in this world the consent of parents , and in that other the consent of our father which is in heauen . The same opinion was maintained by Soterus liuing vnder the raign of the Emperor Commodus , as also auerred by Euaristus and S. Ambrose . Proceed we then in Gods name and let vs now discourse of religious vowes , not questioning their validitie , nor the perfection of the religious or lay life , which of them both is better nor any such matters . But whether children be at their owne libertie and pleasure to conceiue and make solemne profession of a vow , if the father be not acquainted first with it , or else if he disclaime it ; as also whether without him a sonne may enter into the Ecclesiastical vocation , and the father must not present him before he be admitted to holy orders . Hereof I say we will presume to entreat so far foorth as a meane Ciuilian may haue good leaue , either to know or take in hand , such secret misteries of your profession . And if the whole faculty of Diuines , or those seducers of yours , haue any thing else in store , to giue me satisfaction in my question , let me vnderstand of it as soone as may be possible , that so for mine owne part I may set downe , and rest contented by their resolution . But for you sir , I would haue you to lurke no longer in corners , but make your personall appearance to the summons , and be not afraid boldly to chant that high sentence of S. Ierome , against them , which in a depraued sence they haue perhaps trumpt in thy way : Cruelty in such a case is your only piety .