An ansvvere for the tyme, to the examination put in print, vvith out the authours name, pretending to mayntayne the apparrell prescribed against the declaration of the mynisters of London Answere for the tyme, to the examination put in print, with out the authours name, pretending to mayntayne the apparrell prescribed against the declaration of the mynisters of London. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A00274 of text S101663 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 10388). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 252 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 78 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A00274 STC 10388 ESTC S101663 99837471 99837471 1794 2240895463

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 Early English books online text creation partnership. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A00274) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 1794) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 222:30) An ansvvere for the tyme, to the examination put in print, vvith out the authours name, pretending to mayntayne the apparrell prescribed against the declaration of the mynisters of London Answere for the tyme, to the examination put in print, with out the authours name, pretending to mayntayne the apparrell prescribed against the declaration of the mynisters of London. 153, [1] p., folding table Printed by Abel Clémence], [Rouen? : M.D.LXVI. [1566] A reply to: A briefe examination for the tyme, of a certaine declaration, lately put in print in the name and defence of certaine ministers in London, refusyng to weare the apparell prescribed by the lawes and orders of the realme. Place of publication and printer's name from STC. Leaves K6 and K8 are blank; K7v contains an addendum, often lacking. Reproduction of the original in the Yale University. Library. eng Briefe examination for the tyme, of a certaine declaration, lately put in print in the name and defence of certaine ministers in London, refusyng to weare the apparell prescribed by the lawes and orders of the realme. Church vestments -- Great Britain -- Controversial literature. eebo An ansvvere for the tyme, to the examination put in print, vvith out the authours name, pretending to mayntayne the apparrell prescribed against the d [no entry] 1566 156 45028 100 0 0 0 0 0 22.21 C The rate of 22.21 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the C category of texts with between 10 and 35 defects per 10,000 words. 2012-05 Assigned for keying and markup 2012-05 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2014-01 Sampled and proofread 2014-01 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2014-03 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

An answere FOR THE TYME , TO THE EXamination put in print , with out the authours name , pretending to mayntayne the apparrell prescribed against the declaration of the mynisters of London .

Phillip . III.

As many as be perfect , let vs be thus mynded but if you be otherwise mynded , god shall reuele euen the same to you .

M.D.LXVI .

TO THE PLACE ROMANES xvi . wich the examinar addith to the title of his boke and alledgith it vntreuly , for it is Romans xiiii .

1 Ibesech you brethren marlze them which cause diuision :

I besech yow brethrene marke whether part causith diuision , they that in the lest matters shew them selues to be faithful , yet not cōdem ninge other , or they that for so smalle matters cut of so manye lerned , auncient , & godlie Ministers , whome they are not able to charge wth anye fault in doctrine , or conuersation .

And geue occasions ofeuyll :

ANd whether they giue offense , wich to auoid offense are content to susteyne so great lose and troble .

Contrary to the doctrine which ye haue learned , and auoyde them .

And whether it be contrary to the doctrine which you haue lerned , to abstaine frome all shewe of euill , when you haue lerned that all the leuen of Antichrist is euill .

For they that are such serue not the Lorde Iesus Christ , but their owne bellyes .

Consider whether they serue there owne bellies , and not the Lord wich to serue the Lord purely and sincerly are content to depart with all there worldlie lyuings and preferments to such as nowe do vse them .

And with sweete and flattering wordes deceyue the hartes of the Innocentes .

And whether they deceaue with swete and flattering words : wich if they wold flatter and dissemble , in these smalle matters , might retaine their promotions and lyuings .

Thus hath the examinar vncharitably alledged this text of holie scripture , to haue it applyed ( but vntruly ) vnto vs , for this place bothe touchith doctrine , whetin , he knowith that wee do agree with the church of England , and also by it are notid such false apostles as cople corruptelie the Gospel and ceremonis together . Who are gilty herin let the church iudge .

To the place of S. Augustin cited by the Examinar .

IT is manifest that S. Augustin spekith of things mearlie indifferent , as apperith by his examples of communicating on Sonday or Saterdaye , &c. or orders wich euerie church had diuers , beyng grounded vpon the scriptures , and differing in maner of vsing : and not of admittyng Ceremonies , and orders of the gentills , Iewis , or heritikes : and therfore nothing pertayning to this cause .

Augustin consernig Iewish ceremonies , Episto . 19.

THerfore as yow on the contrarie part saye and although all the would ( as you say ) be against vs , you do frelie pronounce that the ceremonies of the Iewis , are petnicius and deadlie to Christians and whosoeuer shall obserue them ayther Iewor Gentill , that he is thrown down into the diuils dungeon : so doe I confirme this saynig of yours , and add , that whosoeuar Iewe or Gentill shall obserue them eyther in dede , or ells but in shew , that he ys throun doune into the diuills pit .

Augustin conserninge gentil orders , Episto . 73.

THe supersticion of things wich the Gentills tied about them among the wich , earings of men , hanging on the tips of their ears , of one sid , is accounted worthy to be detested , it is vsed not to please men but to serue diuils . But who can fynd out in scriptures the particular forbidding of wicked supersticions wheras the apostole doth generallye saye . I will not haue you partakers of diuils : and againe what concord is betwixt Christ and Belyal ? vnlese parauenture because he named Belial , and forbad generally the societie of diuills . Is it laufull for a Christian to sacrifise to Neptune , because wee find nothuig perticularlie forbidden as conserning Neptune ? In the meane space let the wrettchis be warned , that if they will not obey whol som doctrin , yet at the lest wise that they defend not sacrilege . But what must wee doe with them yf they be afraide to lose their eaerings , and are not afraid to receiue the bodie of Christ , with the badge of the diuil .

Augustin consernig the Ceremonies of heritikes , Epist. 86.

TO fast on sondaie is a greate offence , especialy since that detestable heresie of the Manichies , wich is directlie against the catholick faith : and holie scriptures , was openlie knowen : wich Manichies did apoint that daye to thier auditors , as laufull to fast in . by the wich that fasting on the sonday is accompted more horrible .

Here might wee also add Chrysostoms sentens : but to auoide prolixitie wee referre the reder to the first homelie against the fast of the Iews .

TO THE PREFACE .

IT is an easie matter for a Rhetorician or sophister hauing auto ritie on his side to florrish and flaunt , as though he hadd gotten the victorie , when in deed he darenot on s Ioine the battell : wherfore passing ouer his exordium commune , wee desire the redar to waye this mans writing with the epistels of Bucer and Martir , annexid to the end . And to indg wether the same spirit be in them both . They bear with the things tollerable for à tyme , wishing the vtter abolishing of them . This man defendith them as good orders , profitable to edifie , and therfore mete to be retayned still . They esteme the resisters as godlie bretherne , he condemnith them as scismatikes , bellie gods , deceuers , flatterers , fooles , such as haue bene vnlernedlie brought vp in prophan occupations : Puffed vp in arrogancie of them selues , chargeable to vanities of assertions of whom it is feared that they make post hast to be Anabaptists , and Libertines : gone out frome vs , but belike neuer of vs : differing not much frome , Donatists shrinking and refusing Ministers of London . disturbars factious willfull , entanglers , and encomberers of the consciē●es , of their herers , girders , nippers , scoffers , biters , snappers at Superiors , hauing the spirit of Irony , like to Audiani , smelling of Donatistrie , or of Papistrie , Rogatianes , Circumcellians , and Pelagians . But conserning Salomons counsell wee might perchaunce , turne it against the examinar , if wee knew him wich although wee do not , yet wee maye be bold to put him in mynd of the counsell of Christ , Matth. 7. Nolite iudicare , &c. and he that saith thow foole &c. and yet he callith his brothere foole .

And the counsell of S. Paull , 1. Cor. 3. let no man deceaue him selfe , if anye of yow seme to be wise in this world : 1. Cor. 1. let him become a foole that he may be wise : desiring him also to remember , that God hath chosen the foolish of this world to confound the wise .

To the Christian reader .

If for any occasion the counsayle of Salomon , contrarious to it self at the first sight , maye haue place to be alleaged out of the xxvi . Chapter of his Prouerbes , that is . Ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam , ne efficiaris ei similis , ( And againe ) Responde stulto iuxta stultitiam suam , ne sibi sapiens esse videatur , Aunswere not a foole according to his foolyshnes , lest thou be made lylze to hym . And agayne : Aunswer a foole accordyng to his foolyshnes , lest he may seme to himself to be wise : It may now of good congruence be uerified in the cause vttered in question for order of ministers appareill . It is not vnlznowen what argumentes and conclusions , what letters and wrytynges haue ben vsed and tossed from man to man in secrete sort , for these two or three yeres , to disprouue the libertie of the chyldren of God in the vse of externe thynges , to conuel the obedience that true Subiectes shoulde perfourme to the auctoritie of theyr Prince , & to the lawes of the Realme established , to the discredityng and condemnation of such which in a whole conscience thynlze it lawefull for them to weare , and yet charitably beeryng with the wealznes of such whose consciences are entangled with fearefull scrupulositie towarde the same .

IT is well knowen , that the matter was not handled so secretlie these ii . or iii. yeres but openly setforth in the pulpit these seuen yeres : without any grete contradiction : but it may be said , this is your houre . Wee may loke for great truth in the body of your discourse , when your begnnyng is so farced with lyes . This cause was not taken in hand , to disproue your libertie , but rather to prouue that your libertie shold not be made necessity : as the lettar of a certaine bishop written to à noble man witnessith . And to teach you to use your libertie to profit , and edification , according to those sayings : all things are laufull for me , but all things do not edifie . Let no man seke his owne profit but an other mans : neyther to conuell ( for so yow terme it ) the obediens to the Prince , and her lawes : but to teach cheife obedience , to god and his word : nor to discredit and condemne them , that can away with them for wee allwais iudged of them as S. Paull willith , they stand or fall to their Lord for if wee had condemnid them , wee wold neuer haue communicated with them but to discharg our own consciences and to labor for the synceritie , as well , in rites , as in doctrin . As for the charitable bearing wich yow speake of , doth litill appere in these sayings , subscribe , or be depriued , wear or preach not . This is but small bearing .

The small weight of theyr reasons and argumentes so set out , theyr cause so harde to defende withlearnyng ( so many graue wryters of iudgement agaynste them ) the matter sullye debated by the best learned men of the Realme of late , with th order of the counsayle talzen in the tyme of blessed memorie Kyng Edwarde , and fully concluded : caused diuers men ( beyng yet offended with suche vnaduised wrytynges ) to holde theyr pennes , without more confuting or disprouyng the same , as was easye for them to do : partly stayed by the fyrst part of Salomont counsayle : Ne respondeas stulto iuxta stultitiam suam , ne efficiaris ei similis . Yea moreouer , charitie borne to the aucthours of such wrytynges , moued some men to lzepe pacience , and the counsell of S. Paule helde others in silence , wheras he chargeth his scholer Timothe thus : Stultas & ineruditas questiones respue , setens eas parere pugnas : porro seruum Domini non oportet pugnare , sed placidum esse erga omnes propensum ad docendum , tolerantem malos cum mansuètudine erudientem eos qui obsistunt , si quando det illis Deus ●oenitentiam ad a gnoscendū veritatem , & resipiscant a diaboli laqueo , captiab eo ad ipsius voluntatem . Foolyshe and vnlearned questions put from thee , remembryng that thei do but gender stryse for the seruaunt of the Lorde must not striue , but must be peaceable vnto all men , and apt to teache , and one that can suffer the euill in melzenes , and can infourme them that resist , yf that God at any tyme wyll geue them repentaunce for to knowe the trueth , that they may comme to them selues agayne out of the snare of the deuyll , whch are nowe taken of hym at hys wyll .

These be wordes of course , common to all them , that go about to ouertrhow any cause , wich because they are brought in without prose , wee may stand to the deniall . The arguments wear more weightie than yow cold auoid : and whan yow haue by Gods word confuted them than yow may more iustlie call them weake . The cause so easye , to defend with lerning and scripture , that yow neuar durst assaile it , so many graue writers against yow : the matter neuar fully debated by the best lerned in this Realme but of necessitie enioyned them caused yow to staye your pen vntill now : their necessarie defence , caused yow to write somthing least yow should be thought to haue nothinge .

Yf the rule of S. Paull had bene kept , this question of popish Ceremonies had not bene thus ernestlie moued , nor so sharplie folowd . But Paulls place is wronglie alleged by yow , for that he meanith questions of genelogyes , &c. wich pertayne nothing to doctrin , nor disceplyne in churchs of Christ . The question of rites and ceremonies yow knowe Paull him self , and the writers both olde , and newe haue diligentlie handled , and therfore may not be thought a foolish and vnlerned question .

To enforce this text at this tyme in the particuler appliyng therof , shal be spared yet , for hope of their amendement uuho hauer disorderlye behaued them selues . To exagerat the matter agaynste them , with muche alleaging learned mens iudgementes , many dead , some yet alyue , otherwise then to in struct them by a few reported , shal also be spared , as it would haue ben wyshed , the matter whooly myght rather with scilence haue ben styll buryed . But now the prouocation of a treatise so solemlye aduouched , so confidentlye affirmed , of very late so publiquely by print diuulged and dispearsed , hath made this wryter nowe to thynlze it hygh tymn , tocall to remenbraunce the latter part of Salomons fentence : Responde stulto iuxta stultitiam suam , ne videatur sibi sapiens , Not yet profossyng by this examination to say halfe so much as myght he spolzen in the comprehension af the cause , nor talzyng so much aduauntage agaynst that inconsiderat wrytyng , as it myght deserue to be charged : but briefely to put to the aucthours consideration the vuealznes of the reasons , the sophistication of the arguments of that discourse , unuuorthy of it selfe , to saye ( ihe truetht ) to be once aunsuuered , as beyng so uuritten , as euery man , but such as be eyther to parcially bent to the cause , or for lalze of learnyng can not expende the substaunce of the Vurityng , maye perceyue that it muste nedes fall to ruyne & decaye of credite of it selfe , though no man should bende any force at it , & houu soeuer ( in the heate uuich is nouu talzen ) thought to be nuittyly , grauely , inuincibly uurytten , but uuorthy in deede to be put out in the name of such , uuhom it uuould speciali defende .

A good deuine shold spare at all tymes , to inforce textes of scriptures , wich he ought rather rightlie to applie , according to the meaning of the holie gost . As yow deligiht in ynkehorne terms , and borrwed spechis , as exagerat , diuulged , dispensed , comprehension , expend , concor de , infarce , expect , intimate , &c. so somtime yow vse them as one not well acquainted with them . Whan yow say publickly diuulged , Non loqueris vulgo . yow speke not to the common people . yow can speke twise as much , as yow doe : O noble rhetorician : yow willnot take so muche aduantage against the inconsiderat writing it is not worthie anye answrere : it will faull to ruine of it selfe . Nowe wold to god yow wold haue writ as muchas yow could and are hable .

Yf ye aslize me uuhom I coulde thinlze to be under the protection thereof : Surely I can not see , that diuers suche as be learned , and commonly iudged to be amongest this number , can muche ioy to fight under that banner , or o runne uuith them to that marlze they shoote at . For it is certaine , that many uuhom this smale route , named London Ministers , uuoulde haue ioyned uuith them for their more honestie , be farre from their determonations in this question , neither so handling it , nor so uuolde conclude in this cause as they do : Who houusoeuer , some of them , do yet a litle stay at the using of this apparel in themselues , yet be not of their iudgement to condemne the thyngs of uuyclzednes , nether in them selues , nor in the use of them , as the Ministers in this Church of Englande be caled no uue to uueare them . And therefore houusoeuer they uuoulde uuyshe a libertie to theyr ouune consciences reserued , tyll they may see more in the cause , yet be they farre of to condemne theyr brothers , uuhose consciences can serue , them for obedience salze to use them .

Yow wold fayne perswade men that no lerned men , are of oure iudgment , but wee kowe that the gretist part of the best lernid , yea of them that weare them , were of this opinion . No man to our knowleg condemnith the things nor the vsers of them of wickednes . And yow your selfe in your examination often affirm that wee graunt them to be indifferent .

And therfore I must nedes uuype a great many out of their brotherohed , in their singularities enteyned in this last uuriting , and say : Thei be but a ueri feuue in them selues , other then such as haue ben eyther unlearnedly brought up , most in prophane occupations , or suche as be puffed up in an arroganere of them selues , peraduenture chargeable , to suche vanities of assertions , as at this tyme I uuyll spare to charge them . God graunt they do not by this degree , fall to the sectes of Anabaptistes , or Libertines , uuhere unto some uuyse and zelous men of their ouune frendes & Patrones , feare they do malze poste haste , one day , openly to professe .

Yf yow with all the lerned of your side wold procure us a free and a generall disputacion to haue the matter quietly debated , and indifferentlie iudged , yow shoulde se a great nomber redie to defended our cause , with their tongs whom yow now blot out with your penn : for it is well known that not onelie a few vnlerned brought vp in prophane occupations , as yow vncharitable and slaūderuslie report : but a gret nomber of wise , godlie , and lernid men , such as haue bene and are the eldest prearchers in England neuar stayned with any recantacion , or subscription , brought upp in all kind of lerning , both of artes and toungs , such as haue the name not onelie at home but also in forraine nations , to be in the nomber of the best lerned in the realm , agree with us , in this cause , and of them partly haue wee lernid this iudgment . Wherfore yow haue lost more credit with all indifferent men , by this your slanderus defacing of vs , then all your examination is able to pourchase to your cause . Of the same spirit it procedith that yow charg us , with post hast towards the sectes of Anabaptists , and Libertins , wich ar so farr frome such detestable heresies as yow are , frome christian charitie , so to iudge of vs . As ar the arguments of multitude customes orders , and lerning , are fet from the schole of papists whom by this kind of reasoning , yow more confirme in their errour , than strenghthen your cause , or weaken ours . To be called from an occupation to the mynisterie of the church , is no more reproch nowe , to men mete for that function , then it was to Petar , Paull , and the rest of the apostoles . Yf they were vnmete than the Bishopes are to be blamed for admitting them and most of all for retayning , and daylie multiplyng others , whom nothing ells but a capp and a Surples do make commendable .

Whereupon the aduersaires af true religion can uuinne no great reioyce at these mens ouersightes , as being but a uery feuue , and counted in deede none of the sincere and learned protestauntes , houusoeuer for a tyme thei seemed to be amongest us . For though they be gone out from us yet they uuere belylze neuer of us . So that the aduersaries shall haue the uuhole state of the Clergie in place and reputation , for learnyng , uuy sdome , and grauitie , concordely ioyned to be uuholy against them , to defend the sinceritie of the Gospel , though a feuue of these malze suche adoo in our Churche , as stories malze mention , uuas euer uuont some to ryse in sundry tymes to trouble the state of their Churches , uuhere they duuelt . And good it uuere that these Englis he Louanistes , dyd no to muche delight them selues uuith any hye reioysinges , as though the Prince uuoulde for disprouyng of a feuue counterfaites , dislylze the uuhole state of the rest of the Cleargie , uuho shall by Gods grace be able ynough to defende the true religion of the Gospell , uuhiehe they maye heare houue the Prince doth professe dayly and openly , to maintaine and defende to the uttermost iote of the uuorde of God , uuith renoncing asuuell all forrayne aucthoritie , as all forrayne doctrine , not surely grounded upon this stable roclze of Goods uuorde . Their faunuing flatterie prefaces , their greatly conceyued hopes , their busie dispraisyng of better learned then them selues be , can not so be uuitche uuise mens heades , or hartes , but they can discerne trueth from falsehood , deuotion from superstitiōpapistrye from the Gospell , tirany from discipline , Christ from Antichrist . And therefore sirs , if ye lzneuue houne feuue these are , by uuhom ye delyght to slaunder the learned , honue lytle uue thinlze the rest of the Apostles discrepited , though Iudas fell out from them , and houue these be regarded and accompted of , so longe as they thus continue , and finally , houue lytle uue shall ioy of them , and use them , to take the Gospell in defence agaynst you : Ye uuoulde not be so busie to infarce in your boolzes the reproche of these men to lade other uuith enuye , the breath of uuhose penues , ye shall neuer be able to aunsuuere , say and uuryte uuhat ye can . yourboolzes so fast and hastyly sent oner in great numbers , beyng not muche feared for any substaunce that is in them , may for a time relieue you to your sustentation , may be gaineful to your Printers & Pedlours , may peraduenture ieoparde your frendes uuithin this your naturall Countrey , for reading and cherishing matter agaynst their ouune suretie , and against the state of Realme . But trueth is to hye set , for you to plulze her out of heauen , to manyfestlye lznouuen eo be by your papers obscured , and to surely stablished to drouune her in the myrie lalzes of your Sophisticall licorous uuritinges . Houusoeuer ye embosse out your glorious stiles , they be but , Superuacaneae conflictationes hominum mente corruptorá , 1. Tim. 6. quibus adempta est veritas , qui existimant quaestum esse piet . uuith the fore part of the text there expressed , that is , but superfluous brauulings of men peruerse in hart , Psaal . 2. 1. Tim. 3. from uuhom the truth is uuithdrauuen , uuhich thinlz that lucre is godlynes , &c. Ye uuere best to understand , Quod qui habitat in coelis . &c. irridebit omnes Ianes & Mambres , qui resistunt veritati . homines mente corrupti , reprobi circa fidem , sed non proficient amplius : siquidem ament ia istorum euidens erit omni bus quemadmodum & il . He uuiche is in heauen , shal deride all Lannes & Mambres , uuhich resist the trueth , men of corrupt mindes , reprobate in the fayth , but they shal preualye no longer , for their madnes shal be utterly lznouuen to all men as theyrs uuas . Ye shoulde do uuell to remember , Quod Dominus est qui custodit veritatem , Psal. 145. 3. Ese . 4. & quod veritas magua est & fortior prae omnibus veritas enim manet , & inualescit in aeternum . & viuit & obt . &c. hat it is the Lorde uuhiche preserueth the trueth , for the trueth is of great force , and is stronger then all other thynges , for ueritie uuill remayne , uuill preualie for euer , and uuyll lyue and hauo the uictory , uuorlde uuithout ende .

Yt weare to be wished that the aduersares of trew religion , had not causeto reioyse at these your ouersightes : who being not many , if men many bee measured , by there iudgements , do so boldye pronounce of the rest of your brethern : that they are not of the syncere and lerned protestantes : that thei trobell the church that they be contrefaits : that yow shall litill ioye , and vse us in the defence of the gospel against them : that wee are like Iudas , who yet god be praysed , neuar fell from Christ , with that traytor , but iustlie depart frome yow , yet but in a Ceremony : and that wee are gone frome yow , for that belike wee weare neuar of yow , &c. who are yow that we were neuar of yow ? By the exemple of S. Paull wee may say thus much for our selues : yow ar Christians ? so are wee . yow are ministrs of Christ ? so are wee . yow haue suffered for the Gospell of Christ ? so haue wee . That wich yow contend so much for , when yow haue defendid it to the vnttermost : is but the ordynaunce of man .

And will yow saye that wee are gone out of the church of god as heretikes & Antichristians , because wee dissent from yow in a tradition . Thus in your heat , to deface us , yow wring and and racke S. Ihon. And as for the defence of religion , God chosith his ovne champions as plesith him . Other wise it is neyther lerning , nor wisdom , nor grauity , but the lord Iesus with the breth of his mouth , that ouerhro with Antichrist . And yet if yow had the spirit of meake Moses , yow would reioice in the nomber of Prophets : and if yow weare obedyent to christ , or had pitefull , bowells , toward the nedie people , yow would pray the lord of the haruest , to thrust out moe workmen into his haruest : and not thrust anye out of yt for such tradicions .

But to drauue to and onde , and to say some thing to these vpon uuhom this labour is bestouued , uuho moste glori of this gaye boolze of theyrs . I shall wish them to haue a respect● to their former callyng and profession of the Gospell . And as loue of grace and trueth ( I trust ) dyd fyrst induce them : so God graunt that they do not finally fight agaynst this grace receyued , and uuylsullye peruerte the true sinceritie of the Gospell , by treading not aright , ouercome by humaine cogitations , as uuas Peter for a tyme , tyll Paulle dyd reprehende him

Yf your dissimulation wear not to manifestest , yow might easelie disceaue vs , with your faire wordes and sugered speach . Euennow wee wear Anabaptistes , Libertines , Iudasses , and contēnid in the chirches : yea such as were neuar belike of the Church , now yow trust the loue of grace and truth did induce vs . Call yow this playne dealinge . wee thanke god , that he hath gyuen vs grace , rather to sustayne such reproche at your handes , and what so euar else lawes and magistrates shall lay vpon vs , then to peruert the synceritie of the gospel , by mynglyng of it with the leuen of Antichrist : so may wee call them , though the name be changed for it is wel known that changing , of names changith not the thing . As for example of Peters reprehension , makith alltogether against yow : for Petar offendid by dissimulacion , and myngling the gospell with the leuen of the Iewes lawes : wich thing either ignorantly yow omyt , or else , maliciuslie dissemble .

Trustyng that they uuyll so aduisedly expende the earnest counsell of these two notable Fathers , Maister Bucer , and maister Martir , in this their purposed discussyng of the caase , that they uuyll finally rest in quiet , praysyng God in trueth and ueritie : forsalzng errour couered uuith zelous persuuasion to the sauyng of theyr ouune soules to the reioyce of such Christians to uuhom they haue ben teachers : as good subiectes ought to do : to the glory of God . To uuhom be all honour and donanion for euer . Amen .

To the epistlles of Bucer and Martir , wee aunsweare , that what so euar semed to them tollerable for a tyme , is not to be inforced as a perpetuall lawe . Their epistls and censures to the contrary are to be shewd . And euen in these epistlls wich vow bring they grant all the minors , wich yow deny : as in the table following doth apere . Yow go far in iudgement . Can yow make this controuersie a damnable errore ? and a matter of sauing and loosnig soul les ? so yow do pronouncing seuerlye against vs . God be to yow a more mercifull iudge .

The examiner .

AS you pretend in your preface that feare lest the Ministers of Gods worde shoulde be brougth into contempt , was the cause of the vnoderly pubblishing of these your smalreasons : So it is well knowen , that the great care whiche the chiefe gouernours of this Churche of Englande taketh , to preserue true and faythfull Ministers from dispite and reproche , moued them to retayne and set forth these orders , as whereby ( theyr hope is ) Gods diligent seruauntes , accomplishing also other partes of their vocation , myght recouer agayne the auncient dignitie of their forefathers , and that Gods holy Worde & Sacramentes nowe ( by the craft of Sathan ) somethyng basely esteemed , myght also haue there due reuerence and honor , herein they folowed the steppes of wyse Princes rnd good Fathers , who thought it theyr seruice not only to estably she sounde doctrine in matters of fayth : but also to redresse and ordayne rytes for discipline and publike quiet , as in the godly counsells appeareth , Nicoene , Calcidon , and others .

The aunsuuersr .

It is well that wee agree in this poyncte that the ministers of godes worde ought not to be condēnid wee diffar only in this , which way they may be brought into good estimacion : wee say that they ar worthy of dobell honor that rule well , as the scripture teacheth : this though you denie not yet , yow appoincte the the retainynge of the prescribed apparell as a garment wherbye the ministers may recouer the dignitie of their forfathers . The true honor shoulde be geuen to good gouerment and gotten by it . But now experienc teacheth , that an asse , a dissembling papiste , a dronkard , a Swerer , a Gamester , so he receaue your apparell , may haue the honor of retaining his lyuing : but qui optime pr●sunt they that rule neuer so well , and are comendable in all poinctes , that S. Paule requirith in a perfecte good minister , for onlye refusinge the apparell are thruste out , as men vnworhy of any honor dewe to a minister of Christe . Of forfathers wee saye that the Apostolls , not Pharises the Apostells , not Prelates : The Apostells ( I saye ) which did not seke dignitie by apparell , as these did , a● our forfathers . God his worde bideth vs take hede of the Scribes and Pharises that loue to goe in long robes , and to haue salutacions in the maiket , and highest seates in the sinagoges , and chefest romes in feastes . And those thinges which they do , doe you not , sayth Christ , they do all thinges that they may seme to haue reuerence of men . And yf it be not lawfull for the disciples , to get reuerence by Pharisaicall apparell , much less lawfull is it for to get reuerence by papisticall apparell . Moreouer yf it be true that you say , that the retainyng of these orders , was to preserue the trew and faithfull ministers from despighte , it is much to be marueled , that now when all men do see the contrarie effect followe , they are not vtterlie abolished , for these ministers that are m● made instrumentes to ēforce these thinges , are coumpted Tirauntes and Persecuters , those that refuse to receaue them , ar iudged to be rebells , and those that receaue them are rekened tourncotes , flatteres , and waueringe weather Cockes . Yf therfore none other thing wear sought but that which yow pretende : these thinges ought spedilie to be taken away . Touchinge the Sacramentes wee thinke thee institution of them to be perfecte that no honor is to be sought vnto them by mans inuentiones , much less by such apparell , as they haue bene most dishonored and defaced withall , by the Papistes . God his worde and Sacramentes in in the Apostells time , when all thinges werpuer and nothing corrupt with mans tradicions : when simple apparell was vsed in the ministerie , were better estemed than now . If anie reuerence be gotten , it is this , that the ignorant people is made beleue that the old Masse and the Communion are all one : and so it maintaineth the error of the dignitie of the popish sacrifising prist hode . And wher yow saye yow follow the examples of the fathers in Niceane & Calcedon counsels , you ar not able to proue , that they busied them selues about suich trifing matters , but raither about the electiones of good bishopes and Ministers , excommunications of backesliders and correction , of other vices .

The Examiner .

But in your considerations howe smally you haue regarded your duetie in this common we alth , on this maner to make the worlde wonder at your factious wylfulnes , before your superiours ( yf you thynke herin you haue any ) reade ouer your reasons , it is rather to be lamented , and prosecuted with teares , then to be blased abrode in wordes , and vttered by penne . Surely it maye be true here : Nostalem consuetudinem non habemus nec ecclesiae dei : 1 Cor 11. we haue no such custome , nor the Churches of god . Leauing then to the iudgement of others , whether your run not headlong the ready waye to make your selues iustly , and the ministerie also euyll spoken of , by not seekyng the peace of the Countrey where you dwell , and by not obeyng and folowyng , Hier: 29 , but breakyng and forsakyng those variable orders and maners , whereby worldly quietnes at the leastis gotten and mayntayned , iuit : Dei C : 19 c. 17. which ( as S. Augustine sayeth ) is not the vsage of the Citie of God , touchyng maners , lawes , and ordinaunces , whereby the religion of the liuing God is not hurt : Leauing ( I say ) this , and your consideration to the iudgement of others , it shall be sufficient at this tyme to weygh the groundes and reasons , whiche you vse in refusyng to weare apparell and garmentes , not nowe of the Popes Church , but of Christes Churche in Englande .

The Aunsvuerer .

The name of peace is verie beweifull , but then it is trulie beneficiall , when the agrement with god and his word , is the fundation of our peace . Yf the thinges in controuersie were nothing els but variable orders , and manuers , ( wich petition of principall none of vs will graunte you ) we might ealselie and wolde gladlye admit your peace and worldlie quyetnesse : not whith standing beyng such as they are : yf yow wolde suffar vs quietlye to dischar ●ge our duties according to our callinge , there should be small contention on our parte , and therfor you do vniustlie charge vs whith factions , wilfulnes and contempt of superiors , whome we know and acknowledg as our Superiors in the lord vnto whom wee haue alwayes bene redie to render our reasones .

The examiner .

It shall not be vnnecessary to aduertise the Christian reader , that in the declaration there are much paynes bestowed of these discoursours ( were as very litle needeth ) to the intent ( peraduenture ) other to aduaunce them selues in theyr knowledge of Gods worde , or to nip and taunte theyr felowes and betters as vnlearned and fooles . For where as fewe or none are ignorant , that all thynges should be done to edifie , no offences shoulde iustly be geuen , and Christian libettie should alwayes be defended & such lyke : Yet in confirming of these vndoubted truthes many wordes are spent , when as lytle or nothyng is sayd of that which in this cause and many others contayneth the controuersie , that is of the Minor or next proposition . As whether these orders do edifie , do offende , or hurt Christian libertie ?

Wherfore thinke not much , if diuers sentences of scripture tendyng to stablishe one trueth not denyed at this time be briefely collected and aunswered together . For those thinges ought and shal be expended , whiche make any thyng at all to the pithe of these matter .

The aunswerer .

Let the Christiane Reader be aduertised , how so euar this Examiner now grauntith the Maiors to be vndoubted truthes , that before this time , he or they of his side wolde not so receue them , As this that all order ought to serue to edification , they wolde bringe in instans , of the stoles , and pewes , in the Churchis , expounding the sayng of S. Paull , let all be donne to edefinge , not to be ment of domme thinges , but thinges that wearred spoken or songe : therfore was it necessarie to proue them out of godes worde Substancialīe . Wher you saye our Minor is not proued . although , we are men of occupation , yet wee vnderstande that a vniuersall minor negatiue can not be well confirmed . Yet our particular minors they ar al redie touched in the Table and herafler , as you giue coccasion , shal be particularlie proued .

The examiner .

The fyrst discorse here , is of edifiyng or buyldyng the Churche of Christ , which all faythfull Ministers do acknowledge to be theyr bounden duetie and seruice , accordyng to the graces of God bestowed vpon them , and neuer to hinder and plucke downe a whit : wherof much more myght be said then is here rehearsed , if it were nedefull to wade further in so worthy a matter .

Herewithall in textes and expositions , you woulde not greatly haue enlarged your booke , Ephes. 2. if it had not ben to make al gods workemen sauing your selues suspected to the world , as pluckers downe and destroyers of Gods most holy Temple , Fphes . 4. buylded vppon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophetes : when as through the grace of God workyng in them by true and sounde doctrine in this apparell and orders , manye earnest labourers of the lordes , do trauayle to bryng his people to the full knowledge of Christ , houesoeuer you haue entangled and accombred the consciences of your hearers .

So then to the two fyrst places , that be out of the second and fourth Chapter to the Ephesians , no more needeth to be spoken , but that all the carefull buylders in this Churche of Christ , whiche haue other commaunded or receyued these lawfull orders , fyrst ( as they haue before time , so do still take paynes to amplifie and beautifie the spouse of Christ , with the precious iewels of spirituall wysedome : And secondly do vtterly forsake vayne , vngodly , and vnprofitable inuentions of man , whiche two thynges you seeme to require by your note in a true preacher , and can not denye them ( yf you be not wylfull ) to be in very many vsyng this apparell .

The Aunswerer .

You confesse it is the dutie of ministers allwaies to builde and neuar to hinder or pluke downe , but hear of oure texte and expositiones you wolde not haue iudged so rashlie yf you had remembred what our Sauioursayth Nolite iudicare , Mat. 7. &c. Iudge not . Wee do not affirme that they are all destroiers , and pullers down of the Temple , that weare the paparell , but wee may well say that all the destrioyers and pullers downe , are glad to be couerid in this Apparell . And that the Ceremonies and apparell tend not to edification , but destruction , for that no man by them is directed to Christ , and the sinceritie of the Gospell , neyther yet , prouoked to amendment of lyfe , but to Antichrist , and the remenbraunce of poperie . Caluin sayth that al Ceremonies are corrupte and hurfull , except men be directed by them vnto Christ . And for these Cerimonies that are vsed in papacie , they are seperated from doctrine , so that they kepe men in signes lacking all fignifications , thus fare Cal. Inst. li. 4 , cap. 10. sect. 15. Secondly whether they refuse all vaine vngodly and vnprofitable inuentions , which receue this apparell , must be tried by the conclusion of the matter . Yet wee are not more to be accused ffor condemning the receuers , then you for condemninge vs the refusers , agreing with the most excelent reformed Chirchis , of Fraunce , Germanie and ●cotland : and will yow , see , how yow haue setforwardes godes building in the Cytie of London ? Did you not in one day vnfurnish and quite dispatch of work men all the placis in the Cytie whereas any greate bildinge was ? and haue you not heitherto kept backe those workmen ffrom ther worke ? And haue you furnished these places with such diligent laborers againe ? and what can this be els but to stay hinder , and plucke downe godes building ?

The examiner .

Vpon this vniuersall sentenc : That Christes Ministers must huilde vp and not pull downe , you determine that Vicars , Curates and parishe Priestes ought to admit no orders whiche may not manifestly appeare vnto them that they do edifie : Geuing eueri man in his paryshe an absolute authoritie , muche more then they had before the prophecie was fulfilled : Kynges shal be thy Nursefathers , Esa. 4● . and Queenes thy Nurses .

The Aunsvuerer .

Wee suppose that euerie pastor ought to be so far lernid , that he may iudg of such matters , or else wee thinke him not worthie to be a minister : and what inconueniens commith of this affirmation , wee do not yet see : forasmuch as S. Paull willith euerie man to be certenlye perswaded , in his own mynd , whether it be lawfull or no , though the matter be neuar so indifferent . For he that doubtith is condemnid , because he wantith faith : Esa. 49. and that wich is not of faith is sy●ne . Werfore when the scripture biddith all things to be done to edesie . A good pastor should admit nothing , but that wich he is perswaded will edifi● . 1. Sam. 14. And of this iudgement is that reuerend ●father Peter Martir in plaine Words , who putting a difference betwen Ecclesticall and polliticall lawes saith Spectanda est in in Ecclesiasticis ▪ Eutaxia , in politicis autem parendum est , quamuis tu eam euxtaxiam non videas : In ecclesiasticall lawes good order must be considered , but in polliticall lawes thow must obey , allthough thow see not that good order , But where yow name vicars , curats , and parrish prests , wherof wee made no mention in our declaration , leuing out Archibishopes , Bishopes , Deanes , Archedecons , Prebendaries , Cannons , and Parsons : wee marnell what yow meane , vnles yow thinke none of them so mad as to ioyne with vs , in this cause . Isa. 49. Yet shall she porest mynisters , euen euerie vicar , curat , and parrish priest , ( as yow call them ) haue as great authoritie , in the ministration of the word , and Sacraments , in his Church , as any of these prelates : whom yow spare to name . Wee confesse that kings and Quees , shold be Nurcies of the Church but not Lordes of it , not of our consciens , wich the wordes immediatelie following in Isaye doth playnlie declare : bownig down ther face to the erth , they shall worship the and licke the dust of thy fet . The authoritie that princis haue ouer the churchis , is a seruice to defend it , and to seke the profit therof , raither then a prerogatiue to burthen it with superfluus , and hurtfull Ceremonies , at there pleasure .

The Examiner .

Yet you fearyng the inconueniences that must nedes folowe so an absurde an opinion , remember your selues in the next lynes and saye : That if you myght but conceyue an hope , that the vse of these thynges myght helpe forwarde the Lordes buyidyng , you woulde not refuse them . So one tyme , all orders not manifestly edifyng , must be condempned , another tyme yf you may hope that they wyll do well , you will admit them . This your chaungeable opinion well weyed , differeth not much from that straunge saying of the Donatistes , August . Epist. 119. of whose number one Ticonius sayde : Quod volumus sanctum est . What we wyll is holy .

The Aunsunerer .

Wee fear no such inconueniens , and therfore your racke our wordes as plesith yow . Thear is no chaungeable opinion to be gathe red of our Wordes : vnlese yow are more like the Donaristes , wich for so small a fault , cut of your bretherne , from yow , if it weare anye falt at all . And the sayning of Ticonius may be more iustlie applyed to yow , for what popish Ceremonies yow reiect , they are vnhollye and what yow will receue , that is good and orderlye . yow reiect the vestement , and rerayne the Cope , yow reiect the Albe , and retaine the Surplese , yow reiect the stole , and retaine the typpet , yow reiect the shauen crown and retayne the square Capp . And yeat these , and such like , are in one predicament . Why yow should kepe the one , and refuse the other wee knon not , but by this rule , Quod volumus sanctum est .

The Examiner .

If you had benī S. Epla . 119 , Augustines time , when the Church was burthened with humaine presumptions , so that the condition of the lewes was more tollerable ( as he wytnesseth ) then the state of Christes Church in those dayes : belike you would not haue continued preachyng and ministring as he and other did , because those burthen● . Were not at the syrst dashe cleane taken from your shoulders . But he learned and taught other that : Multa toleranda vbi facultas non datur resecandi : Many thynges muste be borne , when orderly meenes do not serue to cut them of . Yea , he tried by experience , than some tymes profitable alteryng of such thynges as were long accoustomed , bread trouble in the Churche by newnes of chaunge , as these his wordes testifie . Ipsa quippe mutatio consuetudinis etiam que adiuuat vtilitate , Epla , 18. nouitate perturbat : For the very chaunge of custome , as it may do good for the profite thereof so it may make much troble for thee w●es therof . Th● this learned father would haue men to expect in alteration , done by publike authoritie , conuenient tyme and season , in matters that myght he tollerated without Gods heauy displeasure .

The Aunswerer .

Sainct Augustin him felse was not burthened with those humaine presumptions , that he writith of , neyther dothe he counsell his frend Ianuary , to beare with them at all . Yf wee ad bene in his tyme wee wold not onelie haue lamentid with him : the vntolerable burden of Ceremonies , but also haue labored to haue them vtterlie abolished , as he him felse giuith counsell wich arguith that wee would continew preaching , and ministring , wich is the chefest way to deface them . yt is a pleasant iest for yow to saye , wee refuse preaching , whem you forbid vs your felse wich wold be content to be with owt the lyuing , so you wold giue vs lyberte that waye to discharge our consciens . yf wee had bene in S. August . tyme , wee are verylie perswaded that he wold not haue put vs from the ministe rie , fynding none other fault with vs , but that wee refuse vpon good Consciens , that wich he vpon good consideration , thought mete , to be taken awaye . His iudgmentwas , that such things , as haue not authority in scripture , nor are concluded in counsells , nor confirmed by custome of the vniuersall Churchs : but are variable and of a doubtfull begining : Vbi facultas tribuitur , sine vlla dubitatione resecanda . Epistola 119. 1. Sam. 14. Martir also saith , that Ceremonies are so long to be suffered , as they make to order , and to some profet of the Church : but when they are no logger profitable , then with out all stick●g and dout , ● . Sam. 14. they are to be taken awaye .

The Examiner .

Here before you shewe what ruine and destruction of gods building these fewe orders law fully enioyned do make : frankely you graunt , all these thynges refused nowe of you , to be of theyr ownn nature indifferent , and that they may be vsed , or not vsed as occasion shall serue

It is harde to say whether this be the mynde of all the shrinking & refusing Ministers of London , who are knowen herein not to be of one iudgement : yea it is affirmed of you a litle after in your declaration , that they be monumentes of idolatry and so to be vtterly destroied : Heb. 10. that they be contrarye to Scripture , and so also not be receyued , though Prynces commaunde them .

The Aunswerer .

Wee are not so franke in graunting , but yow are more franke in receyuing , of that wich no man grantith . When wee graunt them to be indifferent , wee speke of the substans , matter and creature , wee graunt not , that they are indifferent , in euerie kind of vse . And whan wee affirme them to be monumentes of idolatrie : wee affirme that , wich yow cannot denye : therfore are they to be banishedowt from trew religion . And as they are monumentes of idolattie , and slombling blockes to the weke , they are no to be receiued , though all the Princis in the world command them .

The exammer .

A man myght aske of you what vse that is whiche causeth these thinges noune not to be indifferent ? the vse that hath ben , or the vse that they are nowe appointed vnto ? If the indifferencie of these orders hange vpon the vse : then we must loke wherevnto they are ordeyned , and not wherein they were before abused

The aunsuurer .

Aman might aunswere yow , that bothe the vse that hath bene , and the vse that nowe is , causith them now not to be indifferent for that wich hath bene abused , and is not necessarie , nor profitable , to be retayned , is cleane to be abolis hed and changed onelie in things profitable , and necessarie , the abuse is to be cleane taken away : and the thing it selfe to be retainid .

Neither must wee loke onelie to what end they are retayned but what end folowith the retayning of them . Wee deni not but that they are reteynid of a good intent , but wee see that an euill end doth followe of the restoring of them . Namelie the popish preistes which are the greter nomber of the clergie vse them for the same end , they did in poperie . And that the ignorant people can conceue no other thing of them , but that the seruis of god hathe grete nede of them . Therfore for bothe the vses these are not now indifferent : giuing manifest offence to the weake , open incorragment to the Enymie and ignorant . Conserning the former vse Musculus saith afler this maner ( afler he that shewid potestaem liciti ) But theare nedith diligent discretion in this cause , that a Minister accopt not those thinges indifferent , which ayther because thei are against gods word or else for superstition , and wicked seruis : do deserue iust abomination . Cap. 5. ●radi . Conserning the latter vse Musculus also saith to conclud , I thinke that altradicions , are to be refused , wich are against the word of god , wich are idle , vaine , and vnprofitable , which are vnhonest , and vncomelie , which haue but a shew of supersticion , which are greuus and burdenus , &c , But Martir grauntith in his epistle , that these as they are now comaunded , in that it is not lawfull , to doe otherwise , are greuus , and burthenus : and that therewith Papistes goe about to mayntay ne , a litill spice of thier Masse : therfore are they by Musenlus iudgment to be refused . As for the other properties in their place , they are or shal be shewed to ly in theis things . Yf any such new vse of old superstitius garments , had bene necessarie , or comendable , the Earings , Baalls vessells and the brasen Serpent , might so haue bene conserued and conuertid , wich Iacob , Iosias , and Ezechias , destroyed whose godly zeale wee thinke our selues bound to followe , raither , then your new application .

The Examiner .

Nowe are you come to thee hiefe poynt of ●he first argument , which is as you say , that Christes Church is not edisied by these garmentes : Which assertion you go about to per swade two wayes . First , because the simple Christans are greeued , and are redy thereby to fall from Christ .

These whom you tearme simple Christians , are those , who ( as may well appeare ) perswade themselues to haue deepe knowledge in Gods worde , to haue growen to so certayne a perfection , that thay can and wyll sodeynlye iudge of all men , and of all doctrine , and they thynke them selues to be setteled and quieted in greater matters then these . They see weyghtyer thynges in the Church ( yf they see any thyng at all ) whereat they may be greeued , as other good men are , and yet must be contented , tyll God graunt fitte and orderly meanes to remoue them , with charitie to beare , lest the vnitie of Christes Church shoulde be rent vpon euery lyght offence , and horrible scisme for trifles be brought in

The Aunsvuerer .

The asscrtione is well proued . That doth not edifi● , which doth destroye , that which greuith the simple Christians , doth destroye therfore , it doth not edifie . This reason yow graunt , but yow will nedes perswade them , that it dothe not greue them . Because they are perswaded in greter matters . So might the vncharitable abusers of there libertie among the Romanes and Corinthians , haue aunswered Sainct Paull , for they that were greued with meates and drinkes , had receyued the faith of CHRIST : but all men haue not knowledge , though , yow will beare them in hand that they haue : for allthough they see : and are greued , to behold greater matters vnreformed : yet that is no cause why these thinges should be with charity borne withall . Lib. 3. ca. 19. s . 13. Ler ne that of Caluin , as our libertie saithe he , must be in fesus Christ , to charitie , so charity , must be subiect to the puritie of faith . Bucer not oneli in priuat lettres but also in publike comētaris , in Math. 18. agreith to the same . Vnde nihil dicunt . qui perpetuo iactant maiora esse quae vrgeri oporteat , quam reformationem ceremoniarum , in Antichristi reliquii ; patrocinantes , ceremoniae en●m testes religionis sunt , &c. wherfore they say nothing that continualli bost , that there are greter matters to be vrged then the reformacion of ceremonies : herebi defending the relikes of Antichrist : for Ceremonies are witnessis of religion , &c. But by the way wee pray yow remember tw things first that yow confesse these to be waightie : Secondlie , that among so mani waightier things you reforme none which causeth vs to be lesse willing to ioync with yow in this .

The Examiner .

But the simple in deede , Heb. 5 : who are yet to be fedde with mylke , who haue not through custome theyr wittes exercised , are sore greued , and that iustlye , seeyng you not receyue indifferent and comely orders : Of whiche sort , thousandes are dryuen backe , by suche kynde of disobedience as yours is , whyles you wylfully withdrawe your selues from your dueties and charge of Gods beloued children and the deare flocke of Christ : wherin if you haue taught your Nouices that shese ordinaunces , & such other , are superfluous , idolatrious , and superstitious , when they are for decencie and order sake by lawfull auchoritie thus left ( vpon whiche teachyng their offence may arise : ) you ought nowe on gods behalfe otherwayes to infourme them . But yf they be taught to ●ake these thynges as Gods worde doth prefuribe , then your wearyng shall not be the woundyng of theyr consciences , neyther by Gods grace shal you neede to feare the heauy curse of God , whereof you write .

I pray God it be not ( as at S. Augustines tyme ) that this troublyng of the weake , Epi. 1.8 . come not by the contentious obstinacie of some brethren , as is before saide .

The aunsuuerer .

11 The simple hauenede to be fede with the pure milke of the gospell , not myngled with the poison of Antichrist , lest it brede such a disease in them , as when thei are olde , they shal be scarse albe to shake of Christ blys his his babes , frome such milke : wich S. Paull ne uar dreamid of . Yf Irenae were aliue he would saye as he thought of victor , that you make the horrible schisme wich for trifills , as yow terme them , do thrust your brotherne frome yow who before liued and labored in louing consent with yow . Yf thowsands be greued whan wee do our duties , sincerlie , wee wil aunswere be fore the iudgement seat of Christ of a good conscience grounded vpon gods worde . Our sauior Christ biddith vs let them alone with thier blind guids . For they thay pretend most greif are papistes , and no Weake gospellars . And conserning offense , wich is one of the thechefest causes whi wee refuse this apparel , they are most offended that are best pleasid with it , for thei are confirmid inther supersticius opinion , of these things , are boldned by example , to do that , wherof there consciencis doubtith : and is not enstructed by gods word . And this is also the sentence of Bucer , in the place before alleged . Infirmorum rationem ita habebunt vt ni hil temere , nihil importune saciant , sed cum summa mansuetu dine , docebunt infirmos , sapere fortius , tamen & exemplis pro uchere illos dabunt operam neque paucorum qui antichristi ceremoniis aequo adictiores sunt & fortasse non ueri fratres morabuntur cecitatem ut plurimos interim infirmes alios offendant quibus nunquam ista cogitatio non in animo uersatur : si ista tâ mala essent , abolerentur si tam bona opere ea cuncti presertim qui christi uolunt haberi amplecterentur :

They shall haue such respecte vnto the weake that they do nothing rashlie , nothing out of season but with greate gentillnes they shall teach the weake to waxe strong in understanding , and yet by examples shall labor to set them forward , neyther shal they regard the blindnes of a few , that are to much addicte to the Ceremonies of Antichrist which peraduenture are no trew brethern , in the meane while to ofend many other which , haue allwais , this cogitation in their hart , if these things were so euill , they should be abolished : if these things wer so good , all men specialli , they that be accompted of Christ wold embrace them in worke . But because your fay rest colour is order , and decencye : may it plese yow also to here the censors of diuerse lerned fathers , plainelie declaring that this your apparel , is neyther orderlie , nor comelie . first Peter Martir 1. Sam. 14. hath these wordes handling the comon place of the ecclesiasticall lawes .

Esse tamen opertere aliqua quae faciant ad ordinem , & decorī● docet Paulus ad Corint hic tamen ordo non est situs , in magna pompa , in vestibus , in cantibus , in campanarum & organorum strepitu , sed quae ad modèstiam & grauitatem faciant , qui remoueat lasciuiam , confusionem , & barbariem .

Yet Paulto the Corinthians teachiht , that sōtīhgs must be had which serue for order , and cōlynes but yet that order is not placid in great pompe , in garments , in singing , in the no is of Bells , & Organes , but such as makit to modestie , and grauity , which remouith wantonnes , confusion , and barbarusnes . Caluin in the 4. boke , Cap. 10. & 29. diuision of his Inst. writith thus .

Similiter ordinem non constituemus , in nugatoriis it●is pompis quae nihil habent prater auandiem splendorem , sed in ea compositione , quaeomnem confusionem , barbariem , contumaciam , turbas omnes & disci●iam tollat .

Likewise wee will not place order in these triflinge pompes , wich haue nothing but a vanishing shewe , but in the composition wich takith away all confusion , barbarusnes , stubburnes , all troble and dissention . Thus much for order now for comlynes . Docter Rydlie callith them fowlish and to fond for a vice in a playe . His felowe , docter Tayler , callith them apish toyes . Docter Poynet late bishop of winchest. in his admonition to England liknith them to a porters weede of bill in sgate . Lib , 4 : cap : 18 〈…〉 29 Calum in his institutions

Decorum ergo non u●cabimus in quo nihil praeter inane , oblectamentum inerit , quale exemplum uidemus in illo theatrico apparatu , quo utuntur papistae in sacris : ubi nihil quam inutilis elegantiae , larua & luxus sine fructu apparet .

Therfore wee shall not saye , that comlines is wherin shal be nothing but vain delectaciōne such as wee see in the playerlye like apparell , which the papistes vse in their seruice , where apperith nothing else , but an vnprofitable visar of gaines . And excesse with out fruit . Peter Martyr vpon this texte ,

Omnia ordine &c. sed recte intelligenda est ea particula , Decenter , ne hoc decorum situm putemus , in scricis uestimentis aureis & argenteis vasis , gemmatisque poculis , nolarumstrepitu & luminarium fulgore , haec qui iactitant vt decentia , in paralogismum incidunt , quem Aristateles secundum quid ad simpliciter vocat . decentia haec esse fatemur : sed oculis corporis sen sui , carnis mund & iudicio , que not poti' : abnegare debemus quam sequi : decorum quod in his requiritur , constat mortificatione sanctitate , modestia contemptu mundi & potissimum edificatione .

But this worde decently muste be ryghtlie vnderstanded , leste wee shoulde thinke that this comlines is placed in silke garmentes , godlen , and siluar , vesseles , cuppes , sett wyth stones , noyes of Bells and bryghtnes of Candelles . These that bragg of these thinges , as decent , fall into A paralogisme , which Arist. calleth from that which is after a sort , to that which is simplie . wee graunt , that these thinges are decent , but to the eies of the bodye , to the sens of the flesh and iudgment of the worlde , which wee ought raither to denie , than to followe . the comlines that is in these wordes required , standith in mortification , hollines , modestie , contempt , of the world , and moste cheslie in aedification . Petir Martir also vpon the 1. of the Iudges , fol. 33. speking of popish apparell saith procedit sacrificulus ornatus prodigiosis uestibus .

The prest comith forth deked with monstrous apparell , and in the same place and leaffe . Interponuntur etiam quidam imo permulti ritus peregrinisigna ridicula gestus quodammodo flulti & uestes inusitatae Ther are added also , Certayne yea many strang Ceremonies sygnes , to be laughed at certayne gestures in a maner foolish and disguised garments .

Yf therfore fooles bables apish toyes , porters wedes , disguised garmentes , playerlike apparell , monstrous apparell be indifferent , orderly , and comlie , or els if in Church matters , wee must seke to our bodilie eyes , the sensis of the flesh and the iudgment of the world , then may you goe forward with your conclusion , but if not , our disobeydiens , ( as it pleaseth yow to terme yt ) shall not be the ouerthrowe , of thousandes , but the confirmacion , and strenghning of multitudes , in godes trueth . As for enforming the people otherwise , then wee , haue taught them , vnles , yow be albe to shew vs , that wee haue informed them with vntruthes , your request cannot be eselye ybtained , nor counsaell redylie followed . to your prayer we say nothing but Amen sobeit .

The examiner .

Secondly : You woulde haue vs thynke that the receyuyng of these orders doth not edisie , because ( as you imagine ) the obstinate papiste shal be confirmed in his opinion . This thyng is easyer and oftener saide of you , then proued as yet . For truelly this may be a meanes rather to wynne the aduersaries from theyr errours , when they see vs without superstition or any necessitie , turne those thinges to good vses , which they fowly abused , and heare vs condemne in open preachyng , that which they set so much by . And vppon this cause it seemeth , the Apostles vsed long after Christes ascention the Ceremonies of Moises , 1. Cor. 9. and that in the Temple , to wynne to Christ the obstinate Iewes . Note this place of ●ed . eccl. hist. lib. 1 : cap. 30. and expendle his reasons : The histories Ecclesiasticall also haue diuers experiences , howe much our auncient fathers increased Christes Churche by such godly pollicie . Hence it was , that they plucked not downe all the Iewyshe Sinagoges and Heathnyshe Temples , but turned them to the seruice of God : that they altered theyr feast dayes : Epi : 154 : that they chaunged their rites to Godlye purposes . And that this myght be done , it appeareth by S. Augustine to Publicola , saying : Cum uero ista uel in honorem ueri dei conuertuntur , hoe de illis fit , quod de ipsis hominibus , cum ex sacrilegis et impiis in ueram religionem mutantur : when these thinges be conuerted vnto the honour of the true God , it is of them as it is of the parties them selues , whan they were before committyng sacrilege and impietie , nowe they be conuerted into true religious persons . These fathers thought not them selues in suche thynges vnder the commaundement which God gaue his people to practise in the land of Canaan , & therfore durst not with an heroical spirite destroy all that the Heathen had inuented before : Dedoctr : Christ lib , 2 cap. 40. But dyd , Vindicare tanquam ab iniustis possessoribus in usunt suum , clarme to theyr owne ryght vse ( as it were ) from the iniust ●ossessours , such like thinges as you talke of ●n this declaration .

The Aunswerer .

This reason is also effectuall that which ●onfirmith the destroyenge Papistes , is not profitable for the building , this apparell confirmith the Papistes , ergo &c. The minor you saye wantythe profe , what better profe , can you haue then experiens . Remembre what Harding writith in this matter , in his preface before the answear to the Apologie , enquire what the Papistes say abrod , ●f these thinges be good , all poperie , is not euill , wee trust that other thinges will follow shortly &c. this argueth therfore the minor to be trew , that obstinat Papistes are confirmed , in ertos , by retianinge this apparell . But you will haue it a meane to winne the adversaries , godes word teachith vs no such waye . the comparaison of the Ceremonis of Moyses and Antichristes , are not alyke for the one , were the ordinances of god , and for a tyme , myght be vsed , to wynne the weake as Augustine , Epi. 19 : confessethe that the Iewis Ceremonis when Paule vsed them wer tollerable , but now detestable and againe that the olde mother Sinagog must be buried with honor but no such honor is dew to the whore of Rome : ffurthermore , they were borne with all but for a time , and then utterlie abolished , but now the gospell hath bene long preached and therfore these thinges ought no longer to be borne wit hall .

In Augustines time , there were , that for the lyke pollicie , wolde haue had some of the Paganes Ceremonyes retaynid : that it myght be a meanes , wherbye to winne then euen aaster the same sorte , as yow wolde winne the Papistes . Aug. tom . 10. Hom. 6. But he vtterly , misliked the pollicie , answering : quaeritis , &c. do yow aske me houe the pagans may be wonne ? how they may be called to saluacion : forsake thier solemnites let goe their toies , and then yf they agree not to our truhe . let them be ashamed , of their feuunes . Yf wee could agree : with Augustine and forsake the popishe toyes , and trinketes , with in shorte space no doubt the Papistes which now swarue , wold shrinke in the wetting and wax so few , that they wolde be ashamed of their litle nomber . The place of Beda that you refere vs vnto , and will vs so diligently to way , is an Epistell of Pope Gregorie , to Nellitus . wher we learne this pollicie ( how godlye , wee leue to other to iudg ) Not to pul downe the Temples of Idolls , Id● . 9 ● 〈◊〉 dust . 4. E●● . 71. but to sanctifie theim with hollie water , Alters and relicks of Sainctes for he sayth , Aqua benedicta fiat , in eiusdem phanis aspergatur : altaria construantur : reliquia penantur .

Let holie water be made and sprinkled in the the same temples , let Altars be builded , and relickes be there placed . O godly pollicie : And teachinge solemnities , wher they were wonte to kill many oxen , in the honor of Diuells . Yt must be changed to som other solemnitie , therfore in the feast of Dedication , or birth daye of the martirs , whose relictes are theare laid let them make bowers . of grene bowes , aboute the same Chirchis , and so kepe a solemnitie 〈◊〉 holie banketes As for his reasones that you ●ill vs to expende , they are like to the cause ●ich he had in hand , As for Churchis , we reta●● not , to allure Papistes , to our religion , but ●ecause they are profitable for godes congrega●●ion , to gather together in . And touching other ●lemnities Gregorie him self doeth but tolle●ate them , because he thought , it vnpossible ●o take away all at ons . The last reason of changinge sacrifices of the Aegiptians , leanith vppon 〈◊〉 false ground , for sacrifices were first by go●es commaundement , before all Idolatrie , and ●herfore not taken from the Aegiptianes , but ●he old seruice reduced , and the new law of ●hem instituted ●ffinalie your pollicie standith ●n great neade of a god Patrone , when yow bring in Gregorie who first corrupted religion ●n England , thorow tirannie of whose legat Augustine the monke 14. hundred religious ●nd learned Christianes , were cruellie murde●ed , and slayne , for withstandinge his deuelish ●ollicie , But if he will not serue , Augustine ●hall helpe . wee auswer that Augustine speaketh of those thinges , wich ar expreslie commaunded by god to be reserued , and such thinges as serue to necessarie vses as woodde for the fyer , and vessells , for the sacrifice , And yf commaundement of god or necessarie vse , can be proued to be in or of , anie of these thinges now in controuersie , then you may aplie it . But how far he is from graunting of anie vse of wncessarie thinges , once abused , it may appere , in the last sentence of the same epistell , wherin he will not graunt for the necessarie preseruation of mans ly fe leue , no bodye standing bye no bodie seing , that a man maye eate a pece of meate , that he knoweth hath bene offered to Turrian Idol . As for the other place of Augustine de doctrina Christiana , serueth not to this purpose . Augustine tellith vs what sciences we may vse , and yf anieh ethen wryters haue wrytten anie thing well , that we shoulde take it from them , as from vniust possessors to our owne vse . This is to far fet to be applied to Ceremonies . Yow to mainteine the patches of poperie recite onelie pecis of places . For it foloweth in the same place , simulata & superstitiosa figmenta , the fained and superstious inuentiones of the heathen are not to be immitated of Christians . finalie conserning the pollicie of our forefathers , so far as it was agreable to the scriptures , we embrace it , Yf they retained anie thing that was necessarie , or profitable , so to be iudged by godes worde , we commend them Yf they presumed vpon humane reason , with out godes word , wee neyther defende them , nor alow them , To the which ende Theodore Besza speketh against Baldwin saing : I will onelie speake of that , which is out of controuerfsie , that the moste parte of the bishopes of those dayes wear more carefull then they ought to be aboute inuenting of Ceremonies wether they thought the Paganes myght more easelie by thes meanes , be gained to Christ , or whether they had other causes . But how vnhappie this Counsaill was , this one thing doeth declare , that seing the nature of man is suche , that it delitith nothing more then in externall worshipping , sodenlie it came to passe , that euen while manie perceyued it not , that those Cerimonies which they desired to garnis Christian religion , with grew in to Superstition oppressed the doctrin it selffe . And that this is so whosoeuer wold diligentlie rede the wrytinges of the old ffathers and the histories of those times , and consider the beginning of those controuersies , where with at this daye , all Christendome is troubled , shald pleinelie confesse . Thus far Beza , to aunswar your Beda as for these that are nowe in controuersie , they haue only a pretence , of profit for order and decencye : being in dede confusion and vncomlynes , for what order is that , wich confundith light and darkenes : and makith no difference betwene a Protestant and a Papist .

The examiner .

Neyther dyd almyghtie God wyll his people to ouerthrowe the Cananites images and aulters , Deut. 7. leste those Gentyles shoulde be made more obstinate in their false religion ( as you alleage the cause : ) but rather ( as the text declareth ) leste Gods seruauntes shoulde there by fal vnto their idolatrie . For they were charged not to bryng that heathynyshe people to Gods true seruice : but to rote them cleane out of the land which they had so wickedly polluted . wherfore , you do wrye this place from his natural sense .

The Aunswerer .

Yow would fayne proue that wee wry the text from his sence , as yow do your selffe to often . Yea and in this place misreport vs out cause is vttered in these wordes : lest they in vsing anye of these things , should geue occasion to the heathen , to thinke that the god of heuen and Earthe , had anie pleasur in these things : or nede of the vse of them in his true seruis . and this is our onely reason wich well followith of yours : God willed say yow , that all the Cananites Ceremonies shold be destroyed : lest his people by vsing such Ceremonies , shold be snared ergo , as wee saye , god by so doing shewed he had no nede of such Ceremonies . Neyther any pleasure in them . Thus whilist yow haue sought a knot in a rush your cauil is not worth a rush , Notwith standing though we graunt your collection to be trewe : yet of one thing ther might be dyuerse ends , one was lest gods people hould fall into idolatrye . And wee might hold also , that this was an other ende , lest the Cananites should be more obstynat . Wich wee gather of that , that god forbad them to make couenant with them , but to destroy thier Imagis , &c. they were not for bidden to bring them to gods seruise for Rahab , was receyued with all her house : but the obstynate were commaunded to be roted out : wich thing the Israelites did not performe : and therfore it may be iustlie gathered , that God in prouidence , seing they would not doe it : gaue commaundement to destroy thei idolls , with all thier furniture , lest they which remayned should thinke their religion was in part allowed , wich was not vterlie ouerthrowne .

The examiner .

Vpon this text you adde a note in the margent : That al monumentes of Idolatrie must be destroyed , signifieng what your auditours and readers shoulde iudge of these orders ; which yet you your selues sometimes acknowledge to be indifferent , and maye be vsed when occasion shall serue . If these thynges required at your handes , be preciselye vnder that commandement of God to his people enteryng the lande of Canaan : then is all this controuersie is at an ende . Proue that , and al is done .

It woulde helpe you very much in this matter , to consider that there is great difference betwixte those thynges that were meerly inuented of the Heathen , to the worshyp of Idols , and to maynteyne idolatrie : and those that haue ben abused of papistes , specially these fewe thynges , beyng first institute for no such intent .

The aunsuurrrer .

The maior you graunt , that all monumentes of Idolatrie must be destroyed vpon the profe of your minor , you dare aduenture your cause . A monument , is a remnant of a thing that is left or set vp for a remembrans : these be such remnantes and call popery into remembraunce , wich is Idolatry , and not onely remenbraunce , but some aestimacion : therfore they are monumentes of idolatry . But yow will haue them proued preciselie vnder the Commaundement that shalbie done two waies : first , because not onlye the image it selfe , but all that belong vnto yt , euen the golde and siluer of them is accursed . Deut. 7. also wee must abolish the verie names of them Deut. 12. Dauid also agreith that he willnot onelye abstaine frome sacrificing with Idolaters , but also denieth to take thier names in his lipps . Psal. 16. The prophet Esay speking of them which are trulie conuertid from Idolatrie : commaundith them saynig : yow shall pollute the couering of the image of siluer and cast them awaye as a menstruus clothe , and thow shalt say vnto it auant , or get the kence . Esay 30. according to this meaning did Iehu ( whose zeale in this fact the holie gost praisith ) Not onely destroy the imagis of Baall and his preistes , but also thier vestments , which he comaunded to be brought out of the vestrie for them . And if Ieroboames calues , Balls Imagis , alters & vestements . be vnder this comaundement , then by Peter Martyrs iudgement these things are preciselie , vnder the same commaundement : who comparith them togither as all of one sort . in these wordes , Cauere ita debent Lutherani , ne dum exciderint multos papisticos errores mitentur Iehum , retinendo adhuc permulta papis●ica , defendunt enim adhuc presentiam corporis Christi , realem corporalem & substantialem , ut loquntur , in pane coenae Domini tuentur imagines , tuentur vestes : & alia permulta huius generis . Sicut Iehu cum ueri Dei cultu idololatriam uitulorum obseruat , non est in religione ad hunc modum agendum tota quippe repur ganda est & ad uiuum emendanda .

Also the Lutherans must take hede , lest after thei haue cut of manie popish errors , they follow Iehu , by retaninge still manie popish thinges , for they defend still the reall , corporall and substancial presens ( as they call it ) of the bodie of Christe , in the bread of the Lordes supper , they maintaine Images , they maintaine garmentes , and many other thinges of this sort , As Iehu with the worship of the trew god obserued the idolatrie of the Calues , wee must not do som religion , for it must be altogether purged , and wholie reformed to the quicke . And speking of Elias which repaired the Lordes altar , he saithei : fait etiam hoc quod indignumputet vt Iehouae sacrificium offeretur super altare Baalis : cum tamen h● die nonnulli sunt qui in administranda vera Coena Domini , uti uelint papisticis uestibus & instrumentis .

This also he doeth because he thinkith it an vnworthie thinge that he Sacrifice of the Lorde should be offered vpon Balles Altar . Wheras there be some now a dais which in ministring the trew supper of the Lord , will vse the popish garments & instruments : and these sentencies are in the last workes that euer Peter martyr wrot . Yf yow list to cauill of the creatures of god : wee haue made aunswrere before , that all things of gods creation are good : but here al godlie men maye see , how hatefull all idolaters vsage are , when for their sakes , the creatures of god are accursed . Yf you say that commaundement perteynith onely to that time , of thier furst entrie : the saing of Dauid and Esay , which the exemple of Iehu will confute yow . But before wee take further paynes in this matter . Wee thinke best to demaunde of yow two questions . on whether yow willstād to your promesse . Proue this and al is don . The other whether you allue the authoritie of P. Martir and S. Aug. for profe . of your honestie wee haue good hope : and therfore lese of your fidelitie . Of your iudgement wee presume , because yow alledḡ bothe the autors as proffes against vs . Now therfore heare Petir Martir and S. Augustin both at oncs affirming these and such like things to be precisely vnder that comaundement , vpon the 2. Chapiter of the Iudgis fol. 40.

Dubīum adhuc est an idem a Christianis Deus exigat quod ab Haebreis fieri uoluit : ut uidelicet idola & superstitiones cum infidelium , tum haereticorum ui auferant atque comminuant : Si de Principibus ac magistratibus , hoc rogetur exploratum est illos debere suas ditiones ab iis malis repurgare , atque ad id gladium & potestatem â Deo acceperunt . Qui uero priuati sunt à ui abstinere debent cum eis gladius & potestas coercendi non fuerit commissa : Hac de re Augustinus to : Tomo sermone 6 : ad hunc modum respondit Ita saciendum esse à Christianis quem admodum Hebraeis deus iusserat : Deut: sep: Vbi diserte praecepit haec tum a Iudeis fieri debere cum terra fuisset in eorum potestate : Itaque oportet & Christianos idem agere sed in is agris uillis & domibus quae possident &c.

Yet it is doubtfull whether god requirith the same things of the Christians , which he willed to be donne of the Hebrews , namelie , that with force they shold remoue , and breke the Idolls , and superstitions both of infidells , and heretikes . If this be demaunded conserning Princis and Magistrates , it is clere , that they ought to purge their dominions , from such euils , and therfore they haue receyued the sword and power of god but they that are priuat men ought to refrayne frome force , seing the sword and power of constrayning is not committed to them , Conserning this matter S. Augustin in the 10. Tome and 6. sermon answerith after this sort , that Christians must doe euen so as god commaunded the Hebrews Deuter. 7. were he preciseli comaunded that these things shold then be of the Iewes , when the land was once in there power . Therfore Christians also must doe euen the same . but in those feildes towns and howses which they possesse , &c. Now stand to your promise , this is proued , all s is donne . Secondly if that wich yow saye to the contrarie , doe nothing disprouue , but that they are vnder the commandement , then may wee saye that they are precisely vnder the comaundement . For your difference makith them to differ nothing from these . For sacrifice and diuers others customes , were not merely inuentid of the hee then , to the worship of Idolls but taken out of the trew worshipping of God , and abused to idolatry , yet were the sacrifices and customes forbiden , wheras these thinges if they had not bene inuentid of the Papists : yet was their institution superfluus and supersticious : not gronded vppon the word of god . Herto agreith Petir Martir Iud 1. fol. 32. Non est spectanda origo ceremoniarum sed an sentient cum verbo Dei . Not the institution of Ceremonies is to be considered , but the vse whether they agre with the word of god as the brasen serpent had a good institution , but forthe abuse was destroyed . Moreouer if alters superalters , Pixes , Shrins , Censers , rolls of Wax , Tabernaclls , &c. be nonuments of idolatry , as the Queens Ma Iniunctions say they be and therfore precisely vnder this comaundement : why are not Copes Surplessis starchbred Cross . cappes , tippets , &c. precisely vnder the same commaundement . Yf the former be not vnder the commaundement by what commaundement are they abolished ? Yf they be vnder it , by what authoritie are thes retaynid ? But the fewnes ●ow thinke doth excuse them . The lest of them we● to many , yf Bucer and Musculus might be hard , for Bucer saithe , qui sincere christiani sint : nihil penitus ferre possint antichisti , Those that are sincerly Christians can abide notihng at all that wich is Antichrists . And Musculus in his comon placis of traditions 6. chapiter . Voco autem papisticas traditiones , quae ut natura sua , nel abusu impietati superstitioni , ac cacitati , papisticae seruiunt , quas omnes , sūmopere auersādas esse censeo . nec est ut fingat sibi ipsi , quisquam commodas in speciem interprctaciones , ob quas illas absque conscientiae suae laesione , seruare se posse putet . I call popishe traditions those , which aither by thier owne nature orelse by abuse , do serue vngodlines ; supersticion : and popish blindnes all , which I thinke wee ought most ernestlye to abhore . Neither can any man feine vnto him seiffe , ani gentill interpretacion : in outward shew , which he can thinke , he maie kepe them with out hurt of his conscience . Thus one of these fathers , wold haue none of these abidden : the other wold haue all , to be abhord . And yow thinke that the small nomber can excuse them : as who saye thei were so few as yow , wolde haue them seme to bee . Cope , Surplese , starch btead , gospelers , pistlers , kneling at Communion : crossing at Baptisme Baptisme of women , Cap , tippet , and gowne . Item by authoriti of parliament , Albes , alters , vestments &c. These few things are more then may be well borne with .

The examiner .

From this argument of not edifiyng ( wherein you would haue vs rather yelde to your saying then be perswaded by your reasons ) you fall to speake against pollicie without the compasse of Gods word , vnder the which you would comprise these orders not impius & wicked . And for want of matter , thorow your spitite of ironie , you must ( as you do to the Prince , the Counsayle , the Byshops , the learned men & wyse ) geue also to the aduertisementes theyr gyrde and nip : whiche ( very prudently ) thinketh it well , yf Ministers receyuyng these orders , teache and protest , for what ende and purpose they take and vse the same , wherby others may learne , what difference there is nowe when these thynges are set forth for decencie and order , and the tyme when suche lyke were inforced as the seruyce of God .

What fault you fynde with this rule , you declare not . Peraduenture you thinke those garmentes yet stayned with Idolatry , and therefore not to be receyued by any protestation : wherein you are contrary to your selues , to all learned men , and to the scriptures : Or els you thynke not this declaration suffient in these thinges indifferent , that they be not vrged of necessite , that they be onlye appoynted for decencie and order : wherevnto you maye adde more circumstaunces ( yf you wyll ) but they are contayned vnder those two : whiche yf the Minister both holde hym selfe , and diligently declare to other , he may with discharge of conscience obey his Prince , knowyng that comelynes and order , edifie the Churche of Christ .

Well , the aduertisements must be defaced with the infamous title of the inuention of man and such like . And vpon what reason shall this be done ? Forsoth it is like the wysdome of them , that woulde haue images ( you say ) in Churches , to exercise their strength in refrayning from the worship of them , whiche thing is against the wisdome of God . Deut. 7.

Yow condemne vs of the spirit of Irony : But yow through your spirit of malice and vncharitablenes , interpret all things as yow thinke best : yow say wee declare not , what fault wee fynd , with the rulle of aduertissements : and yet the 14. lyne after , you confesse , that wee call it the inuention , of man : like to their wisdom that will haue imagis to exercise our strenghe . The prudence that you teach the Ministers in making protestacion , wherby others may lerne the difference yow speke of . Deceyued wise Origen , Venite , saith , he , accipite , non frondes simulachrorum , sed frondes domini So , our paractysers of pollycie say : come weer this , not for anye religion , but for auncient order , and decencye . Yf you obiect , the place and seruice are not alike : wee aunswer that the Collers , and pretencis are like .

The examiner .

You shoulde haue done the dueties of discrete preachers , yf you had vttered this your vnlikely likelihood , to them that stande in so fonde defence of images , whereof , what the doctrine of this Realme is , it is publikely declared . And as for these orders , all obedient men well vnderstande , that they are not geuen to trye any mans perfection : ● . Cor. 14 ● . Petr. 2. Mat. 16. ● Actes 15. Neither do they passe the wisdome of God , whiche in the Scriptures willeth all thinges to be done decently and orderly , whiche graunteth the godly magistrate aucthoritie of making ecclesiasticall lawcs , whiche hath geuen also power to the Churche , whiche promiseth his spirite to Sinodes , yea for ordeyning rites and maners .

The Aunswerer .

Yf your count this a fond defense of imagis , why doe you not shew how the comparison is vnlike , yow saye they are not geuin to trie mens perfections , yf there be no feare of offens , what nedith protestation : yf there be feare of offens , whie are they comanded , yow saye they passe not the compase of gods wisdom , because the Scripture willith all thinges be done decentlie & orderlie . But this is not proued , yf these thinges are decentlie & orderlie not whot soever is said to be decent , is comelie , nor whatsoeuer , is commaunded , as good order is good order . In dede whe confesse the magistrat ought to set forth Ecclesiasticall lawes , but vnelie out of gods word , ffor neyther the magistrat nor the church , hath any poure but to edifie . Wher yow promise the spirit of god to Sindoes for ordeyniuge rites and manners wee trust yow meane not soe but that Sinodes may ere in ordeyning rites and manners . yf they trust to their owne wisdone and not to the worde of god .

The Examiner .

But to beate downe this pollicie of mans braine , you say ( very litle , nay nothing at all to the purpose ) that in thinges neither commaunded , nor forbidden , we must not folowe our owne phantasies , lest we heare : Mat. 15. In vaine do they worship me , teaching doctrines the preceptes of men . Hom. 52 : in Mat.

These preceptes of men , wherewith the Prophete and the Apostle saye , God is not worshipped , were such ( as Chrysostome wryteth which the seniours had made newe other wayes then Moises commaunded , and preferved them in Gods seruice before the lawe of the Lord , and added them to Gods worde ( as iudgeing ir otherwayes vnpersect ) for the fa●uation of Gods people . On this maner no man at this time vrgeth these orders .

The Aunsuurerer .

How can yow avoid the saing of our fauiour Christ , ( whome it pleasith you to call the Apostel ) and of the prophet Esay , In vayne do they worshp me , teaching for doctrine the preceptes of men : because the seniors had preferred them in gods seruice , before gods lawe ? yt maye be doubted whether they were so impudent to saye so . But this is owt of doubt that they were , as your are more zelus in observing them , then in keping gods lawe & more severe in punishing the trangression of them , then the breking of gods lawe . Remember that before you graunted that the Ceremonies now reteymid haue sontimes bene obserued as the seruice of god and thefore in such realmes wher poperie doth still florish as much as euer it did in england , thes be yet inforced as god his feruis , In vaine therfore do yow vrge thes doctrines of the preceptes of men vsed & vrged of others as gods seruice , euen such as Chrysost. mentionith . what pharisaicall opinion the papists haue had , and haue yet of this attire , apperith in the constitutions giuen to england , the pontifical Hugo Cardinalis , Albert Magnus , Durand , Synod Seronensis , &c. Wich opinions yet are not bloted , out of the harts of papists .

The examiner .

Contra Crescen . lib. 3. cap. 51. Ser 24. dewer . A post . Epi. 48. That holsome lawes of godly magistrates , whiche seruing God ( as S. Augustine affirmeth ) they make not onlie for humaine societie , but also for Gods religion , which further more he truely tearmeth : Clensing instrumentes of the Lordes barren floure , profitable terrours , commodious admonitions , healthsom boundes medicine rigt phisical : That these ( I say ) are not to be thought the preceptes of man , it needeth not to call together here all the auncient felowship of fathers . Doctror Bucer vpon this place may teache you the same , who most godly pronounceth thus : Quiequid homo statuerit , quod quomodoeunque ad vsum proximorum faciat . &c. whatsoeuer man shall decree , whiche by any meanes may make to the vse of his neighboures , for that the same is deriued from the rule of charitie , as be lawes ciuill , domestical statutes , ceremonies and rites whiche Christian : men vse , thereby to reache or heare Goddes , worde more commodiouslie , or to praye , and about the Lordes Supper and Baptisme , yea , & what soeuer shal be a furtheraunce to passe our life here more profitablie and decently : That thing ought not to be esteemed as a tradition or precept of man , though by men it be commaunded , but as the tradition or precept of god . Thus farre Doctour Bucer . Instit lib. 4 cap. 10 par 30. with whom Maister Caluine very wel agreeth , saying : That which is part of decencie commended vnto vs by the Apostle , though it be prescribed by man is Gods tradition , and not mans , as kneclyng at solemne prayers and suche lyke .

So then if you woulde haue rested vppon the censures of these godly learned men , you shoulde not haue needed thus vnwisely to haue skoffed at this wisdome of man , containing her selfe within the limittes of the wisdome of God , as is before proued , and might be iustified by infinite playes of Germane wryters , and by their letters of late sent into the Realme to diuers godly , butfor prolixie .

The aunsuurerer .

That good lawes ordeynid by men accordig to gods worde , ether to set forth the glorie of god or the profit of our neybour were mans tradicions , no man affirmeth , but that these lawes of apparel serue to the woeship of god & profit of men , as yet restith to be proued . for Caluine whose authoritie yow alledge , in the deuision next before , vtterlie denieth , this popish apparell to be decent & therfore it ser tuith neither for the glorie of god nor profit of our neighor . And in the same place wich you alleg he protestithe in these wordes , I allow onelie those ordinauncis of men which be bothe grounded vpon the authoritie of god and taken out of Scripture yea and are alogether gods owne , And Muasculus in his comon placis .

Quod noxiae & pernitiosae sunt traditiones quae ex diabolico instituaetur ex humana praesuptione natae Ecclesiis obtruduntur , De tra. thap. 7. non est ut admoneamus . Nemo enim Christianus talibus patrocinari uult .

Houe hurtfull & pernicious those tradicions are which springing ayther of diwelish instinct or humaine presumption are thrust vpon the churchis , wee need not to put yow in mynd for no Christian man will defend anye such .

The Examiner

The thirde maine reason you vse , is : That none of Christes litleones must be offended : whiche thyng according to your vsage , you augment with sundrye textes of Scripture , as yf all the men of vnderstandyng in this Realme we●●e yet aslepe , and neither saw nor harde the voy ●●ce of their maister CHRIST and his ●holy Apostle : But you passe ouer with silence , that whiche you shoulde haue sustauncially waded through . Vz : That these orders nowe taken , do iustly offende the weake lambes of Christes folde . Wherfore to aunswere to the generall proposition , it is not expedient , seeing at is holden as most true of all men .

But concerning the offendyng of the weake , briefely : In idifferent thynges , if lawe , for common tranquilitie haue prescribed no order what ought to be done , a Christian man ought to haue a great regarde of his neyghbours conscience , accordyng to S. Paules doctrine . Rom. 14 : But yf lawe foreseeyng harmes and prouiding quietnes , haue taken lawefull order therin , offence is taken , and not geuen , when the subiect doth his duetie in obedience , so seuerely enioyned hym by Gods wotde .

The Aunsuurerer :

Y●t semith to you a small matter to offend the litle ones and therfore your iest of yt at your pleasur wee beleve it were better a milston were hanged about our necks and wee throne into the sea then wee shold offend one of thesse litill ones . Your answer is yf that lauues in things indifferent , abridge . S. Pauls doctrin . First remember wee neuer graunt these things in respect of all circumstances , to be indifferent . Secondlie consider how ●ham fully you do erre , as though S. Pauls doctrine weare subiect to politike lawes . The holie gost commaundeth to absteine from meate lawfull , for feat of offence , the pollitycke lawe commaundeth to eate the same for obediens sake , A godlie man in this case will litill doubt to saye it is beter to obey god than man , but you determine that lawes pretending common tranquillitie maye prescribe an order contrarie to the ordar of charite commaunded of the holie goste , by his instrument S. Paull : binding all ages places , and personnes . where doth S. Paull , or anie part of holie writt teache such doctrine ?

The examiner .

Notwithstandyng ( you say ) that a wyse shipper in sayling , wyll not come nygh rockes and flattes yf he may , but take sea rowme ynough . In deede the wise shipmen of our Churche haue spyed the rockes of false doctrine , fuperstition and errour , wherevpon mani haue ben cast away , and to auoyde them haue taken row me ynough in the scriptures of God . For outwarde apparell of them selues , are not such rockes and flattes ( as you do phārafie ) ineyther euer harde you any of Christes seruauntes to be in daunger of perishing iustly by them , as they be now appointed . Yea , you may beholde many a godly passenger vnder these orders saylyng with a straight course towarde that heauenly Hauen , whervnto he trusteh safeli to arriue . Al these men in this ship of Christ , takyng example by the politike gouernour S. Paul o●e out aloude and say : Non omnia papistica aedificant : All popery doth doth not edifie , and are marueylous circumspect and carefull , lest any of Christes deare flocke should be offended .

The Aunsvuerer .

Yow saye the outward apparell of them selues are not such rockes and flattes , that anie of Christ seruantes should be in danger of perishig iustlie by them . yet S. Paull thinkith meates to be such rockes and flattes , that manie weake brehern be in daunger to perrish by them , Ro. 14.1 , Cor. 8. but yow thinke yow escape the flat tes & rockes , if yow crie out of the Ship , non om nia papistica aedificant , all poperie dothe not edifie . And wee crie as lowde , Omnia papistion destruunt , al poperie doth destroy , now whether haue more care of offending , against rockes & flattes , let it be tried , by the chiese gouernour and shipimaister Christ , by the trew compase of his worde .

The examiner .

As for the place alleged by you , where S. Paulle forbyddeth Communion with the gentiles in their idollatricall worsh●ppyng : yf you had applied it , you shoulde haue perceyued no sequele therof . For ( thankes be to God ) wee dwell not ●mong the Babilonians and Chaldies we haue in our Church no publique worshipping of idolles , 2. Cor. 6 no Heathems he or idolattical lacrifice as were in some place of the citie of Corinth , whose societie & contagion we ought to auoyde . And if there be in a Church where Christes Gosp , is pureli preached and his sacram . rightly ministred , some euil among the good , as in one net diuers sortes of fis●hes , in one fielde Wheate and tares , in one barne corne and chaffe : yet the good are not saide to communicate or be defiled of the badde , as long as they consent not to theyr wickednes , but depart from among them , not by corporall seperation . but by dissimilitude of life and diuersitie of maners , though they both yse the same temple , the same table , Con●don : post collaet cap : 5 : &c the same sacramentes , as S. Augustine setteth out at large . It is one thing to flee from communicating with open professed idolatrie , their prophane rites and deuilis orders , though in hart we worship God : and another , rightly to vse rites and fasions abused , all the abuses being clearely condempned . Of the one we haue an expresse commaundement in Scripture : the other our auncient fathers haue practised before you , and Gods holy worde hath not forbidden it .

The Aunsurerer .

Your cannot deni vnlese yow wil be impudent , that wee dwell among manie hundred of papistes , though by publike authoritie poperie be not maynteynid . Therfore though wee haue manie things of necessitie comon with them , as the creatures of the world one table , one temple . Your rites & ceremonies , wich ar not of necessitie , we ought not to haue comon with them . wee must be saith , Tertulian compossessores mundi , non erroris , wee must bee comparters in the world , not in errour . ffor if wee haue then is there some societie betwene Christ & Belial , wich S. Paull vtterlie denieth that it ought to be . which auncient fathers not onlie haue practised , but taught before vs . For Belial is Belial whether he be openlie or priuatlie professed , & so Ceremonies are prophane and vnhollie , though they haue neuer so faire & holie a visard . Bucer in Mattheum for Bucer speking of Ceremonies retaynid in a reformed Church saith : Certe vt nulla est prorsus Christi , & Belial conuentio , ita syncere Christiani nihil penitus ferre poterunt Antichristi . Certaynlie as the are is vtterlie no agrement of Christ & Belial , so syncere Christians can abide nothing at all of Antichrist .

The examiner :

The fourth foundation or grounde that you lay , is That you must needes cast away and forsake all those thinges as haue ben brought into the Church besides or contrary to the Scripture . This platte you enlarge with a dosen seuerall sentences , all which paynes you myght well haue saued , yf you had not mynded to hane ben bytyng and snappyng ( by the way ) at your superiours .

This trueth all faithfull Christians confirme with you : That concerning faith and doctrine , concerning remission of sinnes , and eternal saluation , nothing ought to be taught or receyued , which is contrary or not grounded in the Canonicall Scriptures . 2. Tim. 3 , For holy writ geuen by the inspiration of God , is not only a lyght to our feete , as Dauid saith : Psal. 119. but also so profitable , that thereby the man of God maye be absolute , being made perfecte vnto all good workes , as Sainct Paule testifieth .

And though hit be most true , touchyng the substance of Christian religion : yet the maner and order of setting of it foorth , is not particulary expressed , 1. Cor. 14 but generally left to the disposition of Christes Churche from time to time , accordīng to those wordes of Saint Paule : Let all thinges be donne comely and orderly . wherein whatsoeuer shal be lawfully done to those purposes , is not to be iudged beside the Scriptures .

The Aunsuuerer .

It wear follie to striue whith you in vaine wordes and malicious construing , yow will nedes haue the victorie . The scripture yow wil haue perfect , onelie thouching substans of Christian religion . The maner & order of setting it forth , is not particularie expressed . But left generallie to the disposition of the church , wee graunt . but so that this disposition is barred in , whith manye condicions , that nothing superfluus , or superstitious be brought in , nothing offensiue be decreed , all thinges be order lie , and directlie apoyncted , and that for edifing : which condicions seing they want in your pretensed orders , wee must nedes saye ar they beside the scripture .

The examiner .

As fro example . Fasting is commaunded in Gods worde : But what dayes we shoulde fast , Aug. Epist : 86 or what da●es we shoulde not , being not there determined , yf the Christian Churche decree , it is not besydes the Scripture . The ministring of Baptisme , & the Lordes super is commaunded in Gods worde : But what dayes , what tymes , what places , in what companye , with what prayers before and after . yf the Christian Churche decree , it is not besides the Scriptures And accordyng to this Sainct Augustine , wryteth , touching the receuyng of the Sacrament of the body & bloud of Christ fasting in the mornyng : Epist: 118. Saluator ideo non praecepit quo dein ceps ordine sumeretur , vt Apostolis per quos Ecclesias dispositurus erat , seruaret hunc locum : Our Sauiour therfore hath not commaunded in what order ( the Sacrament ) shoulde be afterwarde receyued , because he myght reserue this place to his Apostoles , by whom he woulde order the Churches . Thus also the preachyng of the Go spell is commaunded in Gods worde but howe to do this office in Pulpit or otherwayes , in morninglor after noone , and so forth yf the Christian Churche decree , it is not besides the scripture . The lyke may be sayde concerning lawes politike of Princes , affayres and traffike betwixt man & man , whose groundes and rules are in Gods worde : and yet the particular circumstaunces in practising them beyng diuers in sundry Countreys , according to the iudgement of magistrates , are not besides scriptures when al those diuersities haue Gods worde for theyr generall rule and ende .

The aunsuerer .

So supersticion be awaye , & other condicions obserued , a lawe may be made off fasting , prouided all wais that by no humaine constitution whichis besidethe word off god , mens consciencis be entangled , which werecōtrarie to the word of god . Remember what August . writith of the fast of the Maniches , which you maye se in the begining of this boke , wherbie wee gather this general rule alwais in this controuersie to bemarkid : that no Ceremonie is to be borowed of the aduersarie . Homel . pri: ieun . Iud And also considere the sayning of Chrysostome , conserninge the fast of the Iewes . Tel not me ( saith he ) they fast , but shew me that they fast according to the will of god , which if they do not , then is their fast , more wicked , then anye dronkennes - Likewise for ministring the Sacraments , order may be taken by the curch , so it be most to edification , according to the time place and compagnie . Touching the tradicion of the Apostles that it is necessarie to receue the Communion ffasting , if yow dare defend it by sainct Augustins authoritye yow maie . wee suppose yow will not defend all the doctrine that was commonlie receiued in his time , & by him thaught much lesse , all rites & ceremonies . To be short the scripture hath lefl nothing so free or in different to mans lawes , but it must agree with those generalle condicions before rehersed , & such like .

The Examiner .

And blessed be God , our times are here suche , Deut. 24 : that no man in our Churches presumeth to adde to Gods word , as acknowledging the perfitnes therof to our saluation : And that our gouernours in the feare of God , Rom. 15 : eschewe Saules disobedience : and by righteous clemencie flee the tirannie of Reboam : and through the direction of Gods spirite , walke zelously in the pathes of Godly Ezechias , in all those thinges whiche they finde wrytten in the boke of godes lawe , to appertayne to his true seruice and worship , not so much weyghing the displeasures of worldly potentates , as the curses that the most mightie God powreth vpon all suche as truely and sincerely regarde not his religion and glory .

The Aunsuuerer .

Wee giue thankes to god for our good gouerners , desiering him to encresse in them , those god qualities which yow commend , the perfect obediens of Dauid , to hate the verie name of Idolls , the righteous clemencie of Salamon , to maintaine the godlie , and punish the wicked , the godlie zeale of Ezechias , to breake the brasen serpent and doe all thing according to the precise rulees of godes word .

The examiner .

And blessed be the name of the Lorde for euer that hath stirred vp such Bishops and preachers among vs , whiche neyther haue , nor do flatter Princes , to set vp their pleasures aboue the will and commaundement of God , though some surmise the contrary : As Audiani , Epi. lib. 3 : Tom prim . certaine sectaries layde to the Fathers charge of Nicaene coum sell , that they tooke an order in the troublesome dissention for keping Easter day , to please and flatter Constantine the Emperour , whereas they did it vpon iust consideration , and to auoyde scisme .

The aunsuuerer .

God be praysed for allgood Bishoppes and preachers which seke not to plese men , but to shew them selues the seruants of Christ which for the more detestation of Antichrist , and clerer attestation of Christian liberty , and for auoiding of strife and dissention wish and labor to abolish all remembrancis of Idolatri . As for the sectaries called Audiani , they misliked the fathers of Nicean counsel , for that they wold not kepe Estar at such tyme as the Iewis kept their passouer , and therfore they are more like vnto them then wee , that carenot how like thei seme in outeward rites unto the papists .

The examiner .

Surely the examples whiche you bring in , of wicked Kinges and false Prophetes , might haue well at this time , in this cause ben pretermitted , as whiche concerne matters expressely forbidden or commaunded by God , but that you woulde intimate to some not well stayed , that the Prince in these thinges suffereth them contrary to Gods word and her lawfull aucthoritie : whiche ( thankes be to our heauenly father for his abonndaunt blisinges most richly powred vppon her ) is altogether otherwayes , or that all preachers and subiectes obeying so orderly demaundes , are but false Prophetes and flatterers . This is very sore iudgement , to condemne all your brethren for man-pleasers , that obey their supreme gouernour vnder god in matters indifferent : of whom ( as you knowe ) a great number , when flaterie was muche more gaynefull , refused to do it , with no small daunger

The aunsuuerer ,

Yf nothing be expreselie forbidden by gods word , but that which is expreselie named in gods word , the Masse , the Pope , Purgatoire , with a thowsand monsters be not expressely forbidden : and thefore maye be named things indifferent : but yf all that , be contrarie to gods worde , which is contrary to any generall rule of holy Srripture , wee haue showed before that these thinges are not indifferent : because they are the glorius badges of the enimy , with whome wee maye not in any such thing communicate : they offend the weake , greue the godly , confirme the obstinat , aedifie not , maintaine supersticion , make contention are vncomely &c. To aunswer your vncharitable surmise of our indgment , were nedles , because it bewrayith it selffe . yet to vncouer your Sophistrie , because of the simpell it shall not be amisse . All though wee affirme , that these things suffred , or set forth by the Prince are be sides gods worde , but being perswaded by you and such as you are , that they may stand with gods word . your Sophistry is ab ignoratione elenchi , or , a non causa procausa .

The examiner .

Epi. gene And if you marke your note well : Flatterie hath not ben alwayes the sure marke of false teachers . For your shall reade S. Iude foretell of some that should despise them that were in aucthoritie : Aug. Epi. 48. You shall reade of the Donatistes , Rogations , Circumcellions , and Papistes , that are rather disobedient to iust and good lawes of Princes , for that ( as they sey ) they see not in the writinges of the Euangelistes and Apostles any suche example .

The aunsuuerer .

None despise them that be in authorite , more then flatterers which speke fayer to their faces , and condemne them in their harts The Donatists , Epi. gene. Aug. Epla 48. Rogatians , Circumcellians , and Papists , haue all wais bene flaterers , wher they haue hope to be entertained . To such disobedient parasites you do vniustly and vngentlie compare your Brethern .

The examiner .

Nowe for the maner and condition of true Prophetes , Eze. 13. whiche ( you assure vs ) is , to aduouche alwayes : Haec dicit dominus , Thus sayeth the Lorde : It is maruaile you remembred not , in what thinges that was then necessary , and wherein it is requiered nowe . Trueli you are not so vnskilfull , but that you knowe sundry seuerall thinges to be left to their iudgement , who may for the more handsome feeding of Christessheepe , 1. Cor 11. and not for their owne purse , belly , or kitchin , say with S. Paule : Other thinges when I come , I will set in an order . Al rites and fashions which euery nation beleuing mai stablishe and vse , are not distinctly rehearsed in Scripture , that the minister may say of euery one of them : Thus sayeth the Lorde . It is sufficient in suche thinges , yf they truely serue to EVTAXIA , that is , seemly order , to retaine the which , the Church hath power to abrogate olde , and make newe lawes . wherein ( sayeth Doctour Peter Martir ) these conditions must be obserued : First that they be not contrari to Gods word : Then , that iustification and remission of sinnes be not sought for in them : Thirdly , that the multitude ouerwhelme not the Churche : Fourthly that they be not decreed as necessari and not to be changed : Last of all , that they be not so vrged , as yf he sinned dampnablie that sometime omitteth them without offence or contempt . Suche lawes then albeit they be not in plaine termes and wordes mentioned in the scripture , yet hauing these properties , they are not to be reiected , as yf they were by no maner of meanes in the worde of God .

The aunsuurere .

It is nedles you thinke , in orders and Ceremonies to say hoc dicit Dominus . Thus saith the lorde , because sainct Paull saith other things whan I come I will set in order . This is neither good logicke , nor witty Sophistrie : what a consequent is this . S. Paull will set things in order whan he comith . Ergo he will not , or nede not set them in order according to the word of god . S. Paull is wont to giue warning , whan he spekith of things wherof he hath no commaundement of the Lord . Thus saye I and not the Lord . 1. Cor. 7. That I speke I speke it not afler the lord . 2. Cor. 11. But when he prescribed orders to the Church of Corinth . conserning the reuerent vse of the Sacrament : he saith , that which he deliuered he receyuid of the Lord : condemning all for disorder that was not receyued of the Lord . The same night he was betrayed . Yow will cauil of the tyme place and companie . Wee are not so ignorant , how foeuar wee haue bene brought vpp in prophane occupacions , but wee can distinguiss he and make a difference of things done at the institution of the Sacrament that some pertaine to the Sacrament as the bread , the wyne , the sitting at the table , the blissing , the breaking the deliuering , the receyuing , the preching of the Lordes deth . In the which action wee thinke nothing was omitted that serued ayther for reuerence of the Sacrament , or for decent and orderly mynistring of the same . Therfore what so euer is addedor changid for these causis at the lest , wee thinke it superfluus , if it be not presumptius , to seme more wise in these poyncts then Christ . And his Apostells that were contented with this pure and innmingled institution . Other thinges there were in the institution that were no part of it , nor pertaynid to it , as the tyme : at night , after supper , the place , a parler , the certayne nomber 12 , and , suche like . These are indifferent : for wee reede in the scripture that all these circumstancis , were changed . And of such are the rules of D. Peter martyr , to be vnderstode : which if they were obserued wee shold not long be trobled whith these matters .

The examiner .

It is a pitifull case to see howe you trouble your selues in comparing Christ preachyng the will of his father , and the Phariseis teaching their owne traditions : as if any man inforceth nowe mans lawe , as part of Gods diuine seruice : or as if these orders vppon necessitie of saluacion must be receyued , ●d Cassul . and Gods blessed worde troden vnder foote . Yet sainct Augustine is thus bolde , touching the obseruation of profitable rites in Christes Churche , that he thynketh the contempteus breaker of Ecclesiasticall orders , to be corrected as transgressours of Gods lawes .

The Aunsuuerer .

It is a pittefull case to see yow so stoutlie maintaine precepts of men , against the word of god , as though all precepts and tradicions ( vnlesse they be inforced , as a part of gods dyuine seruice , or vpon necessitie of saluacion ) are to be receyued . What can the Papist say more in defense , of mens traditions . The Pharisies as is touched before , made not much more of their tradicions then the tradicions of their elders . though they were as yow are ( more ) zealus for them , then for gods lawe . And as for S. Augustin his rule , first proue these to be profitable , and then vse then & spare not .

The examiner .

The Apostles ( you say ) preached not the dreames of their owne heades : Ast. 15 and yet for all that , they made orders for the Churche whiche continued their times and season , whereof we reade not their particuler commission . 1. Cor. ●● . 14 . True it is ( as you report ) that S. Paule willed not men to followe his deuises , neither preached he him selfe at any tyme . What then ? Did he not appoint temporall rites in the Churche , which he had not Verbatim expressely at his masters hands and whiche nowe ceasse and are not in vse ? Ephi : lib : 3 : Tom: 1● the lyke is said of suche doynges of the other Apostoles , whose constitutions were altered after their death .

The Aunsuuerer :

You shall neuer be able to proue , the Apostoles made any orders or constitutions , but they were agreable to the generall rules of Scripture : before often rehersed .

The Examiner .

You conclude thus : because these thinges haue no commaundement nor grounde in Gods worde , therefore you refuse them .

Fyrst special commaundement needeth not in this part of Ecclesiasticall discipline . The edification , order decencie , authoritie of supreme magistrates haue grounde sufficient in the newe Testament and olde . Last of all , you should haue proued that they had no grounde in Scriptures : But that thing youe neuer once touched , but rannea rouyng vpon the Maior , to bleare the simple Christians eyes , as if you had sayd much of the matter , when you neuer come towarde it .

The Aunswerer .

It is trew all edisication , order , and decencie and authoritie of magistrates haue groundes in the Scripture : but your apparrell hath not anie aedification , decencie or order , nor lawfull authoritie , for wee haue no power but to edifie . Thefore it hath no grownd in the Scripture : and all this hath bene spoken of before .

The Examiner

Passyng from this fourth reason , you frame an obiection vnto your selues , as it liketh your selues , and aunswere vnto it as you liste . Your obiection is : That the Prince commaunding a thing indifferent ( and profitable for the of the Churche may be added ) must be obayed . whereupon ( you say ) it must folowe , you disobeyng therein , must both your selues offende , and be a stumblyng blocke for others .

In aunswrere herevnto , howe sclenderly you excuse yore selues and auoide blame , howe daungerously you passe ouer other matters , it had not ben greatly amisse to haue quietly left : but that this place as well as others , would haue something spoken of it .

The authoritie ( you affirme ) of a Prince in these thinges indifferent , is to commaunde their good vse , and forbyd the contrary . Vpon which your resolution , a man may reason with you thus . The good vse of indifferent thinges is gods commaundement , whiche a Prince must execute : But this may be a good vse of these orders now taken , as the contrary is not proued by you , & so consequently the magistrate may call vpon the execution of the same . Touching the Minor , this much we haue of your graunt , that a tyme may be , when these thinges in Christes Churche may haue their good vse : But whether that tyme be nowe or nay , there are preiudices against you of the like tyme heretofore , of the wholle parliament , of the Clergie , of the most part of protestants & papistes .

The aunsuuerer .

The aunswere to the obiection is better , than you can take awaye for all your glorious wordes , remembring the former protestation , that wee neuer graunted these things to be indifferent , in their vse : then admitting they were neuer so idifferent yet aedification must be sought in them . Christian liberty must not be infringed for them . &c. This is oure aunswere to the obyectiō . But your fine reason maye not be omitted . The good vse of indifferent things is gods commandement . Which the Prince must execute , but this may be a god vse of these orders now taken , therfore the magistrat may call vpon the execution of them . First you craue no lesse then two principalls , to helpe your weake cause , th one that these things are indifferent : the other that there may be a good vse of them . Your Minor semith to bring a fallaci whith yt there maye be a good vse of things : ergo there is a good vse . And this is called a posse ad esse , from that which may be to that which is . But yow saye wee graunt your Minor , that there may be a tyme whan these things in Christes church maye haue ther good vse . If this had bene graunted yow yet yow rune into a nother fallacye , by abusing , and stretching the graunt , à dicto simpliciter ad secundum quid . These orders may be vsed of some whose consciences are not entangled , ergo of all contrarie to their iudgement and science : or these orders may be vsed at some tyme , and for a tyme : ergo . at all times and al wayes . you are not ignorant , that the circunstances of persones and times varie the case , But yow saye there are preiudicis against vs , of what ? of the lyke time before ? Kynge Eduardes tyme is not lyke , for the gospel hath bene longar preached . of the whole perliament . yow know what the Papistes aunswer to this . of the learned and godly ? They wish theyre abolishing with vs . of the moste part of Protestantes and Papistes ? we are ashamed to heare a Protestant alleadge such popish praeiudices , prescription of time , of councell , of clergie , of multitude , of Protestantes and Papistes .

The examiner .

As for that power whiche ( you expounde ) God hath geuen to Princes , whether it containe all their aucthoritie and iurisdiction , as you rehearse it , it shall not be narrowly scanned at this time . Neither ( thankes be geuen to God ) doth the Prince of pleasure , but for furthercommoditie of her subiectes , require this subiection of yours , which howe lawfully you withdrawe , God knoweth and will iudge . verily this your declaration in that day , 1. Cor. 4 will not be your defence , when the Lorde shall lyghten thinges that are hid in darkenes , and make the counsell of the hartes manifest . Also we all nkowe , or ought to knowe , in what cases we shoulde put in vse that saying of S. Peter : we ought more to obey God then man . And therefore we stike not in these thinges to shewe gratefull hartes , as of those men , who acknowledge them selues by the meanes of suche a Prince , deliuered out of those miserable cases . We are affraide to striue contentiouslie about the varietie of kinge Salomons wyues garment ( thinges outwarde ) lest we should hurt her inward beautie as S. Ad cass: : Augustine thinketh to become seruauntes of the Churche , a Queene so pearelesse .

The Aunsuuerer .

We must all apere , before the iudgement seat of Christ were the thoughtes of our hattes shall eyther accuse or excuse vs , wher howsoeuer our Declaration defend vs . Your examination shall not rondenne vs . Whether the Prince of pleasure cequire these thinges or no , yow confesse that yee receiue them to pleasure the Prince : ffor your wordes are , that yow sticke not in these thynges to shew gratefull hattes to the Prince . And also wee a● at the Princes commaundement bodye and godes , whith thankefulnes , our obedience to god and his worde all wayes reserued . As for sainct Augustines allegorie wee haue litle to do whith it , but if yow like it , then must yow lyke ii thinges in that place , fyrst that it maye please you to suffer the Queens garment to be changeable and not to rent the cote of Christ whith contention , for lacke of conformitie : secondlye that you will consider that there is no comelines of the Chirch in outward shewes , for as he saythe Omnis pulchritudo filiae regis intrinsecus , all the bewtie of the Kinges Dawghter is inward

The examiner .

The bondes and limittes whiche you appoint for true obedrence of subiectes to their princes , are very narrowe & daungerous . For oftentimes the Subiect ought to obey in thinges not forbidden by God , and commanded by lawe , though he do not plainly perceiue either for what good end they are required , of to what ende they will come : as daily experience in common wealthes do shewe . But ( belike ) you will haue euery man to vnderstande as much as the Prince and councell knoweth and intendeth : or els you will set the subiect at his choyse .

Moreouer , here is perilous auctoritie graunted to euery subiect , to determine vpon the Princes lawes , proclamations and ordinaunces that when they shall see them ( many tymes otheruayes then they are in deede ) vnprofitable then shall they , nay they must not do and accomplishe the same . If you restrayne this to matters Ecclefiasticall , you helpe your selues neuer awhyt : For euery Minister there hath not full power to make and abrogate Ecclesiasticall lawes , nor yet knowledge well to iudge of them .

This is therfore scarse to geue example of true obedience to God and man . For in not obeing man in such thinges indifferent , whose vse you can not shew nowe to be wicked , you obey not God , whose minister man is . But I omit here longer to recite your wrytyng in this point for good , considerations : Which I thinke , your selfe better aduised hereafter , wyll expende .

The aunsuuerer .

We wyll giue as large lymites of obeydience , as the scripture giuith . And so far there is no daunger . wee graunt that often times the subiect ought to obey when the Prince do the euill to commaund : but this stretchith no farther then temporall matters . As yf the Prince exact an vnresōnable tribute , the subiect is bound to paye it . As for matters ecclesiasticall euerie minister though he make no lawes , yet oug to haue knowledge , that he may iudge of lawes made , wheather they stand wyth gods word or no. And thus thynketh Peter Martyr ( as is before alleadged ) making a distinction betwixt Ecclesiasticall and polliticall lawes . Yow thynke it daungerous for subiectes to restraine the Princes authorities , to boundes and lymites . we thinke it as dangerous , toin large the Princes authoritie beyond the bondes and lymites of holy scripture , but yow omit vpon considerations , to reherse more of our writing . You neuer omit vpon anie good consideration , to charge vs wyth false and vncharitable suspicions , which we wold wysh , yow had vttered playnelie .

The examiner .

The fifth and last reason generall , that moueth you vtterly to refuse the receyuing of apparell yet continued and declared , is the consideration of Christian libertie , whiche thereby ( you thinke ) shoulde be manifestly infringed , and so forth . And here you triumphe in your textes : how Christ hath deliuered vs from the bondages of ceremonies and law .

As touching Christian libertie , the faythfull man must knowe , that it is altogether spirituall , and parteyneth only to the conscience , whiche must be pacified concerning the lawe of God , and nerte well stayed in thinges indifferent . This libertie consisteth herein , not to be holden & tyed with any religion in externall things : but that yt may be lawfull before God to vse them or omit them , as occasion shall serue . This perswasion a godly man must alwayes retaine & kepe safe in his minde : but when he commeth to thee vse & action of them , then must he moderate and qualifie his libertie , according to charitie towarde his neighbour , and obedience to his Prince . So though by this knowledge his minde and conscience is alwayes free : Caluin yee his doing is as it were tied or limitted by lawe or loue . Hereupon a wel learned man saith : It is sufficient in Christian libertie to vnderstand , that before God it is no matter , what meates , or what clothes thou vse , Pet: Mar● : though in thy whole life thou neuer eat flesh , and though alwayes after thou vse in apparell one colour , and fassion . So hath another : Quod ad sensum et doctrinam , semper profiten dum , adiaphora esse libera , non quo ad vsurpationem : A Christian man must alwayes professe , that indifferent thinges , as muche as appertaineth to vnderstanding and doctrine , are free , and not touching their vse . Nowe then forasmuch as these garmentes are among thinges indifferent , we may easilye knowe how they are free as parteining to our conscience , and yet notwithstandyug we may be obedient to lawes without impairing of Christes libertie . But to the weighing of your reasons .

The aunsuuerer .

Sauing our former protestation , concerning the indifferentie of these matters , wee allowe well the sentencis of Caluin and Martir but your applying of them neuer a dealle . You misconster D. Martir , and cleane wrest a wrie his distinction he meanith that such thinges are free in opinion , though thouching the action and vse they ought to serue to charitable aedification you contrarie wise , not onelye vse them frelye and franckelie your selues , but constraine others to do the like , wyth out , respecte of charitie , or aedification . Charitie is the rule in scripture , for the vse of indifferent thinges . Against charitie , no Prince hath auctoritie to make lawes . The ceremoniall law of god , gyuith place to the lawe of charitie . Christ touchith the lepor , which the lawe forbad . It is a godly harmonie when the Princes lawe and charitie agree and a great disordre whan they Iarr . Therfore in thinges indifferent wee muste not onelie haue oure owne consciences free , but also take heed , that we giue none example , wherbye they that haue not knowledg , haue theire consciences entangled .

The examiner .

Fyrst , the Lorde God be praised , the religion of Christ standeth in no such daunger as you beare men in hande it doth , by putting men in minde to trye those constitutions , that the wise men of the whole Realme haue well hoped , will serue to some good purpose in this congregation of Christ .

The aunsuuerer .

what daunger the religion of Christ standeth in , let the reioysinge and triumphe of the Papistes , for the executing of these constitutions testifie . what daunger also hangith ouer the Church for receauinge these Romishe rites manie wyse men lament to see . Yf a surplefe may be worne whye not an albe ? yf a Coape , why not a vestiment ? stole funell and chesseble ? yf Cappe , tippit , and gowne , whye not a shauen crowne , affriers , a monkes , a Chanons weede , why maye not all the Ceremonies of poperie be receyued there ende being changed for order and decensie , &c. Yf wee receue one , wee see not , how to staye our consciencis from the rest . Therfore it is a manifest daunger that hangithe ouer the Church , by receyuing anie of these . It is an olde verse and trew : Princ cipiis obsta . Yf yow obiect that the Prince wil vrge no more . yet the inconueniens is neuer the lesse , which wee may not admit , to geue so euill a president to our posteritie .

The examiner .

Then , no wittye or Godly man can iustly iudge our religion to be but Princes pleasures , yf Princes through great deliberation make lawes for the Church , & call vppon the practize of the same . You are not ignoraunt what this smelleth of , that is either of Donatistrie or Papistrie : which sectes thinke alwayes the true catholiques to geue to much to Princes and Magistrates , when as by Gods worde they acknowledge them to be supreme gouernours not onlye to see lawes , framed by the Cleargie , put in vse . but to disanul the naughtie , and to decree good and godly .

The Aunsuuerer .

If anie thing be admitted for Princes pleasures , which is not permitted by godes worde , manie muste thinke that some parte of our religion , were nothinge but Princes pleasure . wee neythet take from Princes authorities wythe Donatistes , and Papistes , nor adde vnto it wythe Clawbackes and fflatterers . But geue vnto it asmuch as godes lawe alloweth it , yow are not ignoraunt it smellith raither , of Donatistrie , to reiecte your bretherne for a trifling and pre●ended matter as you calle hit : and of papistrie , to defend popishe tradiciones , against the simplitie and sinceritie of godes worde .

The examiner .

Thirdlie , he hath traueiled but simply in Scripture , who reasoneth from the abolishing of Moyses ceremonies , to the plucking of all good orders out of the Churche . For though Christ , being the body of all those shadowes , hath fulfilled them , so that we neede not to feare the curse pronounced vpon all them that do not abide in all thinges that were written in the lawe : yet we are not forbidden to vse some one of them yf it might edifie the Churche of Christ . And yf they be by all waye : forbidden : yet no learned man will gather tha : no decent fassions are needfull in the Churche .

Last of all , who seeth not that these few orders , now to be obserued , are not ioyned as figures or shadowes of any thing to come : but as some meanes ( yf it myght be for a tyme ) to set forwarde the building of God .

The aunsuerer .

He hath well traueled in the Scriptures , that reasoneth frome the abolishing of Moyses Ceremonies , to the abolishing of all Popish Ceremonies . For those ye meane by your god orders . ) And so Caluin A man , no simple scollar in Scripture , hathe traueled , to reasone as aperithe , cap : 13 , u : 3 in his exposition vpon the Actes of the Apostles . Nunquam satis constat tales ceremonias nec vela esse , nec sepulchra , quibus tegitur Christus . sed foetida potius stercora qui bus obruta est syncera fides & religio . Qui promiscue faciunt liberum earum vsum longe plus Papae arrogant , quam Deus legi suae concedat . De Missa & similibus spurcitiis quae manifestam in se idololatriam continent , dicere nihil attinet . That is . now seing it is sufficientlie knowen that suche Ceremonies are neyther vayles nor sepulchers , by which Christ is couered , but raither smelling doung by which the sincere faythe ādreligiō hath bene ouerwhelīed . They which make the vse of them indifferend to be ffree , arrogat much more to the Pope . than God graunteth to his owne lawe . Conserning Masse , and suche lyke filthines , which conteynith in them manifestest idolatrie , it is no nede to speake . This is Caluines mynde . And the Churches which were reformed by his aduise , wer neuer so wyse to make good ptositable orders , of the stinking Doung Hilles of Popish Ceremonies . And Peter Martyr one that hath somthinge traueled in Scripture , is of the same Iudgement . Answeringe the obiection of the Nicodemians Concerning Ieuish Ceremonies saing they are not to be compared whith inuentiones of man as are popishe Ceremonies and therfore not for anie tyme to be retayned Iud. 1. f. 34.

The examiner .

The ende of these groundes is this : That you fearing these garmentes shoulde be thought ●ecessary , you vtterlie refuse to admit them . This opinion of necessitie ( which you phantasie ) neyther was annexed to these at the begynnyng , neyther any wyse or learned man in this Church maynteineth it , neyther is it nowe by any meanes confirmed : but plainely the contrary is protested , taught , and done .

The aunsuuerer .

Our ffeare is not for Wyse and learnid men but for our posteritie , which shal be confirmed by our example , in the opinion , of necessitie that they haue before , or may herafter conceiue of them .

The examiner .

Howe vnnecessarie soeuer you woulde make men beleue that vniformitie in outwarde apparell among Ecclesiasticall ministers were , Of out vuard apparell . as by the whiche you woulde proue they can not be knowen yet you can not be ignoraunt , but that suche thinges were vnder Ecclesiasticall discipline : wherof ( euen touching apparell and ornamentes ) Ciprian folowing his maister Tertullian saith , after great commendation therof : Hanc sectari salubre est , & auersari ac negligere laethale . Ter : de vir vela : To folowe this discipline , it is a healthsome thing : but to turne from it and neglect it , is as daungerous as death . In this time Tertullian sharpely reprehended a Bishop that suffered a widowe to sit without a vayle in the Church among other widowes . Niceph: lib. 9. cap. 45. To. pr. con Sin . Gang. Eulalius also a Bishop did cast Eustachius a Priest out of the Churche , because he vsed an apparell : Qui sacerdotem non deceret . whiche was not comely for a Priest to weare : The whiche Eustachius after warde was condempned of the councell in Gangra , fordoyng manye thynges otherwayes the the order of the Church was , and for alteryng his apparell . I leaue here to reharse the seuenth generall councell , with the decrees of sundry good Byshoppes , that haue taken order for their Cleargies apparell , because this thing only is intended at this tyme , to shewe howe litle the examples brought by you , conclude that thing which you woulde .

The aunsuuerer .

Allthough vniformitie in outward appaparell weare necessarie , yet it foloweth not , that it is vnder the Church discipline , to appoint vs the apparell of heretickes as though there wer , no vniformitie but in poperie and no honest tayler to shape the Church a Coate but Antechrist . we wysh for that discipline which was in Cyprianes tyme , and which he doeth comend , As touching that women should wear vaills or couerings , on theire head , it is the doctrine of S. Paull , and not of Tertulian onlye . But herof shal be better occasion to speake afterwarde : As for Eustachius whiche was cast out because he wote apparell , that became not a Prest . it makith not against vs . for we wolde not haue a minister , goe like a seruing man , or a mariner , but in honest and sober apparell , mete for a man of grauitie . And wheras he was condemnid in the counsell of Grangra , you cannot proue : In prohem . c●n : gang : that it was for leauinge the distinct apparell , of Prestes , but raither the commune apparell , and inuenting a strang and a new apparell , for he was accused , Adhuc etiam vestibus communibus spretis , nouas & in solitos habitus , assumpsisse . Moreouer despicinge commune garmentes , to haue put on new and vnwonted attires . The apparell he left is called comune apparell , not proper to preistes , that which he toke on new and vnwonted habites , which is not lyke to be the commune apparell of graue honest and lernid men . you thinke yow haue to doe wyth Tinkers and Coblears , and men brought vpin prophane occupationes , that neuar red the general counsells , when you speak of the seuent generall councel , which wee are not ignorant was the 2. of Nice , the synagoge of Satan , wherin , the vse and worshipping of imagis , was confirmed no meruail yf such a counsell made lawes for the apparell of Priests .

The examiner .

Saul ( you say ) did aske Samuel where was the Seers house , ● . Reg: 9 : vhen as Samuel himselfe was the Seer or Prophet . As yf Samuell myght not haue on hym the apparell of a Leuite , though Saule thereby did not knowe hym to be a Prophete . If God stirred vp a Prophete among the Leuites , as Samuel was : we reade not therfore that he altered his apparell . This seemeth rather against you thus : That Samuel though a singulier Leuite , yet in the number of them that went alyke , was not knowen to haue that gyft he had .

The aunsuuerer .

Wee saye trulie that Saule knew not Samuel by his apparell to be a Prophete , and you saye vntrulie that Samuell was appateled lyke a Leuit. As though the Leuites did weare other then commen apparrell , except onelie when they did their ofice about the Sacrifice , and in the tabernacle where learned yow that els they wore their lynnen Ephodes ? for where it is sayd that Doeg slew 85. Priestes that wore a lynnen Ephod , it is not ment that they wore it as a garmente to be knowen by , but onlie in seruice of the Tabernacle . and Though Samuell ministred before the Lord in a Ephod : yet when he departed from Saul , he toke hold of the lap of his Coat , not of his Ephod , and when the witch . Raised him vp ( as she thought ) Saul knew by his manttell that he was wonte to were , that it was Samuel . 1. Sam. 28. where you saye yf that Samuel a singuler Leuit , in the nomber of theim that went a like , was not knowen to haue the giste he had : Maketh not againste vs , for wee wold not haue mens , gistes knowen by their apparell , but by well vsinge of them .

The examiner .

Touhing Elias , whom Ochosias seruauntes meetyng knewe not to be Elias the prophete : It maketh nothing against this , 4. Reg. 1● but that the Leuites myght haue and vse a distinct apparell : Yeat it appereth rather that Ochosias the kyng dyd knowe him , hearyng the description of his apparell by his seruauntes . And what a kynde of reasonyng is this : Straunge seruingmen dyd not knowe Elias to be Elias when they met him : Ergo he was not apparelled as othets Ministers : Or Ergo his apparell helped not to make hym knowen ? Garmentes make not the person knowen by name , but his common function , not his particuler and special gift .

The aunsuuerer .

Is it all one to saye they did not know him to be Elyas the Prophete , and to say they knew not Elias to be a Prophet , by his apparell . what child doth not see your cauilling in this point . wee say , his commune function was not knowen by his garments . you saye his person was not knowne by his apparell the seruantes of Ahaziah knew him not to be a Prophet .

The Examiner .

What nede you to bring in S. Iohn Baptist , Matth. 3. who as he was singulerly called to prepare the way of the Lorde , so had he his meate , diet , and garmentes singuler ? This is wonderfull shift , to seke out extraordinary persons , & leaue the ordinarie state of Gods ministers : to searche what was done in troublesome tymes of the Churche , and leaue the peaceable gouernement of the same : to alleage what a prophete being persecuted did weare , and so necessarily inferre what we may do in quietnes and peace . But from S. Iohn Baptist doinges , one might , as your common kinde of reasoning is , reason against that you defend , thus . S. Iohn willing the Phariseis to repent , neuer mentioned the casting away of their supersticious apparell , Ergo abused apparell may be reteyned styll .

The aunsuuerer .

In Ihon Baptistes apparell ther is no more but your yee , and our Naye you saye his garmentes wear singular , wee say thy were commune mune such as wer communlie worne , in the fforrest or wildernes wher he dwelled , and witnesses with vs ar Caluin Musculus . yf you and haue better authoritie and reasones then they , we wold be glad to heare them . But of Ihon Baptistes doinges , wee haue heard say , that one did reason : he forbad not the Pharises apparell : Ergo , abused apparel may be retayned . we reason not ab authoritate negatiuae , which being the authoritie of man and not of god , is againste the rule of reason and logike . As though a man wolde thus dispute : S. Ihon did not commaunde the people to take hede of the leuen of Pharisies : Ergo , they nede not take hede .

The Examiner .

But Peters example ( you suppose ) helpeth your matter muche , Matth. 26. who was knowen in the high Priestes hall by his tongue , and not by his coate . Neither did Peter preache after the ringing of a bell : naither saide any seruice appointed : neither made sermon in Churche or pulpit and yet for all that , you and godly men will thus do . Truelye there was then no lawe of any godlye Magistrate to induce Peter thervnto . If it had ben so waightie a point of religion to differ from false Christians in outwarde apparell ( to the which ende all your force is bent ) it is marueilous that we haue no such example in the Apostolike Churche .

The Aunswerer .

Peters example prouith that it is not necessarie for ministers to be knowen by theire apparell , ffor if it had bene , Christ wolde haue prescribed apparell to his Apostoles , or the Apostells to others . Tertulian doeth so frame his argumente in his boke de oratione . Quod vtique &c. which trule yf it ought to haue bene done , the Aposteles which do theach of the habit of praing , wolde haue comprehendid it . Christ onelie and not godlie Magistrates must apoincte what is necessarie for his ministers , yf it had bene necessarie to diffar from false Christianes in apparel , you maruel why there is no example in the apostolike Church , nay rather yf it had bene necessarie that ministers should haue distincte apparrell frome other men ( whereof onelie wee speak now ) wee maruel that ther was neither Commaundement nor example of it in the apostolike Churche As for youre marueiling maye be staide , yf yow , will remembre what Christe saide to his disciples . Take hede of the Scribes and Phariseis that come to you in longe gownes , &c.

The examiner .

Here next are brought in of you two women , Hie. Epi. liuing solitarily in a kynde of banishement , to confirme what the publique state of the Cleargie eyther might or did weare . Hierome ( you say ) did councell Eustochium a virgin to weare apparell , Nulla diuersitate notabilis , notable by no diuersitie . Might not this virgin notwithstanding weare the attire proper for virgins , though she did not differ notably from all other virgins ? Tert. de vel . virg. Amb. de virg. If this Eustochium were a maided that publiquely in the presence of the Church toke vpon her to kepe her vitginitie ( as diuers then were perswaded to do ) then had she the vayle : But yf she for to auoyde the continuall troubles of those times , minded to liue sole , and in a solitare place , she might weare as best liked herselfe .

The Aunsuuerer .

Here your thinke scorne , that two women should be brought in to shew , what the publiq̄ state of the clergie should weare , and yet you youre selffe , a little before bring in one widowe that was reprehended of the Bishop , to proue how necessarie vniformitie in apparell is for ecclesiasticall ministers S. Ieromes counsell is that she shoulde haue no notable diuersitie of apparell , lest men that passe bye should poinct at her with their singers , wherin he semith not to allow the coustome of the Church , in veiling of virgins of a singular facion onlesse you thinke Eustochium , was so fond to , deuise an apparell that none other women vsed .

The examiner .

The like may be aunswered of Marcella and those worthy queers of Munkes singing in their owne language at Hierusalem in those wretched dayes : Aug. Epi : 76. Can: 4 : h 2. Tom: pri. Ha : 63 of whom there was none a minister in the Church of Christe , as farre as can be gathered . For Munkes in those dayes were none of the Cleargie : And yet in some places Collegiate Munkes had their habite , as appeareth in the councell of Chaldedon , and in Epiphanius .

The aunsuuerer .

The wordes of Marcella , conserning the Quiers of singing monkes at Ierusalem ( as your call them ) proue , that it is not necessarie , for Ecclesiasticall men to weare distinct apparell , Epist. ad August. 11 , 17 , 18. And where as you deny that any of those Monkes was a Minister in the Church of Christ , you seme to forget that S. Iherom was one of them there and yet he was a Minister in the Church of Christe .

The Examiner .

Nowe foloweth somewhat that seemeth to touche the Cleargie , that is : That the Cleargie of Rauenna ( as you report ) writte to Carolus Caluus , that they shoulde not differ from the people in apparell , but doctrine . &c.

Fyrst ( yfyou wyll ) let these wordes be referred to the first auctour therof , that is , to Celestinus Bishop of Rome , as you partly graunt , and then consider nowe they furthet your purpose .

Celestinus , about the yere of our Lorde 430. writte to the Bishops of Fraunce , against certaine that brought in vpon superstition , Nouitatem vestium contra morem Ecclesiasticum , Newe kinde of apparell , contrary to the Ecclesiasticall maner , folowing the outwarde letter of the Scripture , that is , they woulde be : Amicti pallio , & lumbos praecincti : Couered with a cloke , and girte about their loines . which thinges because you spied there , you lefte out these wordes betwixte your two sentences alleaged : Nam si studere incipiamus nouitati , traditum nobis a patribus ordinem calcabimus , vt locum superuacuis superstitionibus faciamus : For yf we begin to studie vppon noueltie , we shall treade vnder foote the order deliuered vnto vs from our fathers , and so make rowme for superfluous superstitions . Nowe yf you will set together all these circumstaunces , you shall perceiue all to make against you .

First . Celestinus meaning is of them that would serue God rather in garmentes then with puritie of hart . Then he speaketh against those that comming out of the Laitie , will vse still lay apparell . Last of all , against those that seke innouations in suche matters , contrarie to loug prescribed vsage and order . Reade his wordes in his Epistle , and you shall not denie this .

If it please you to vrge the wordes , that we are to be discerned from the people nor by apparell , but by doctaine , you will remember that here is such a comparison as this : Non misit me Christus baptizare , sed Euangelizare : Christ hath not sent me to baptise , but to preache the Gospell : and yet Paule baptised . So they might be seperate from the people by apparell : 1. Cor 11 : but chiefely it woulde be donne by doctrine and puritie of life .

Why you fled to father these wordes vpon Celestinus , but rather to haue them appeare to be the Cleargies of Rauenna , which was 400. yeres after Celestinus was dead : some may thinke that you feared to put men in minde , that order in outwarde apparell was so auncient : or that you woulde haue no helpe at the Popes hande : or that you well knewe that the place made altogether against you .

The Aunsuuerer .

We are neither ignorant nor vnwilling to confesse that these wordes of the Church of of Rauenna were taken out of the epistle of Celestinus , but because the Chirch of Rauenna did alleadg them wee raither bring them out of their epistell that was later , to shew that this opinion of the necessitie of distinct apparell , is not so auncient as is pretendid . As for the circumstances make nothing against vs but , raither for vs . first Celestinus meanith those that wold raither serue god in garmente than with puritie of harte , And we see now that garmentes are made greater matters then puritie of hart , or bodye either . For Papistes and Drokerds are not depriued yf they receyue the gatmentes . Secondlie he speaketh of them that came out of the layetie , and will vse still lay apparell . How proue you that , it semeth other wise by his wordes . Dicimus quosdam Domini sacerdotes superstitioso potius cultu inseruire quam mentis vel fidei puritati . We haue learned that certaine of the Lordes Priests , gaue hede raither to superstitious apparell , then to puritie of the mynde or faith . Myght he not thinke you , say so to manye english Priests ? He speakith of Priests that are alredie , not of lay men coming to be Priestes . The text is plaine a gainst yow : Non discernendi sumus a plebe . These superstitious preistes wold not haue lay apparell as yow say : But be discerned from the laye sort , but Celestinus forbiddith . This therfore might be wel one of M. hardingsgessis : Last of all he spekith of them which seke innouacions , contrarie , to th old order , but this prouith not that they had an old orders for distinct apparell of priests from lay men : else he wold haue said , wee are sufficientlie distinct allredy in apparell from the Layitie : let vs nowe bee deserned by doctrine : but he saith wee must be discernid by doctrin and not by garments , by conuersation , not by apparell , by purety of mynd , not by attire :

But these wordes yow at loth : to haue vrged saying , they are spoken in a comparaison lyke the wordes of sainct Paul : Christ sent me , not to baptise but to preach , that is raither to preach then to baptise : A proper shifte at a pynche , you checke vs after your maner for leauing out these wordes : Nam si studere &c: but yf you wolde haue put in these words that follow next after , all men sholde haue perceyued that your slender shifte can not stand , Rudeser go fidelium mentes , ad talia non debemus inducere , docendi enim potius sunt quam illudendi , nec imponendum est eorum oculis , sed mentibus infundenda praecepta : that is . therfore :

We ought not to induce the vnskilfull myndes of the faithfull to such thinges , for they must raither be taught then mocked , neyther must we deceiue their eyes , but pour preceptes into their myndes .

Celestinus plainlie denieth that the vnlearned myndes of the faithfull shold be moued wyth suche thinges , counting it but a mocking and deceauing of theire ieis .

Then if the former wordes were spoken onely in comparaison , the also are in the same phrase , so by your exposition , though we must chiefly theache them , yet we may laufully mokthē though we must raither fyll theire myndes whith holsome preceptes yet we may also deceiue theire eies , this were in dede a toy to mocke an Ape . Yet the inuention to yow semeth verie Wittie and leaned .

The examiner .

After this you bring in a patch of Gratians decrees . Cau. 21 , 94 Caus. 21. quest. 4. that godlye men in olde time went in base and vile apparell . This is a Non sequitur . But see what smal helpe you haue at Gratians handes .

Firste , all that tract is against the gorgeous , costlie & light apparell of the Cleargie , which all godly men deteste in all kinde of appares . Can. 27. Then , the place you recite , is referred to the Propheres times , and thereabout , as appeareth in Basill .

Thirdly , there is this decree of the. 7. counc . Nullus corum qui. &c. Let none of them that are numbred among the Cleargie haue any vnseemly apparell , whether he liue in the citie , or walke on his iourney : But let him vse the stoles or side garmentes whiche are graunted to Clarkes . You may reade there also the decrees of Zacharias and Leo , very auncient Bishopes of Rome , that none of the Cleatgie shoulde weare the apparell of laye men .

The aunsuuerer .

Yt is like we were afraid to seake helpe at Celestinus the Pope when we are not afraid of Gratians decrees , which proue sufficientlie , that it was not thought necessarie , that ministers had there distinct apparell , but commune and base garmentes . To saye the truth the auctoritie is not worth the contention . But to your fyrste answere yf it were , spoken against gorgius costlie and light apparell , how can you defend sarcenet typpets ? Secondlie that Gratian refered it vnto the tyme of the Prophets , is not proued by Basil . for yf yow haue studied Gratiane he pachith manye auctorities together hauing regard neyther to tyme , place , person , nor matter . Thirdlie for the decre of the seuenth councell our answer is before for the decses of Zacharie , and Leo ( yf they were not countrefaile as you and we iustlie thinke they are ) proue not that , it is necessarie to haue a distinction in outwarde apparell .

The examiner .

Last of all , Bah , tom , 2 howe farre Basilius Magnus was from your minde in this matter , though you alleage his name here , it appeareth in many places of his workes , but specially in the aunswere to the 22 , Interrogatorie of the longer rules , where after discourse he hath these wordes : Ex quo quidem illud continget . &c. when vpon this shall come to passe , that we shall haue a common fashion among vs all in our apparell , and that therby the Chrestian may haue a singuler and peculier lesson Yea a litle after he saith , that it shal be to them , Velutipedagogi disciplina , as the discipline of a scoolmaster , to withdraw men from some of their wicked dedes .

Thus then , neither Samuel , nor Elias , neither Iohn , nor Peter , neither Hierome , Celestine , nor Basil , make anie whit at all against vniformitie of outward apparell in Ecclesiasticall persons , howesoeuer you do abuse their auctorities : but raither stablis he and confirme the same .

The aunsuuerer .

This place of Basil is directlye against yow Ex eo autem sequitur vt ex habitu inter nos communicemus , & velut proprium quendam characterem ex vestitu habeat Christianus : Hereof it shall follow that we shall all goe appareled a like , and that the Christian shall haue as it were a proper marke by his garment . Yow denied before that a Christian shold be discerned from a Papist by apparell .

Saincte Basile speketh not here of Priestes , but of parfecte Christians , that in all poinctes wold frame them selues , accordinge to the moste perfecte rule of the Gospell , whether they were Priestes or maried men , neither doth he speke of the fashion of there garment , but of the basenes , and vse , which was for grauiuitie , and necessitie , and not for vanitie and curiositie , such as shold serue them , both day and night : But hit is a sporte to see youre inconstancie : when we bringe in the quier of monkes at Ierusalem , they are none of the cleargie : Neither dothe the example of solitarie men , confirme the publique state of the Cleargie :

When you bringe in saincte Basiles : Monkes , in the desert of Pontus , or elswhere , they ar of the cleargie , and this example seruith to proue , the apparell of the publique , clergie : but howe well , let the readers iudge . Thus the examples of Samuel , Elias , Peter and , Iohn , with the auctorities of Hierom , Celestine , and Basil , declare sufficiently , that it is not necessary for Ministers of the Churche , to haue a distincte apparell to be knowne from other .

The examiner .

Before aunswere be made to the foure thinges that moue you against the ministring apparell , the reader may be admonished to beholde what rehearsall you make of superfluous apparel , and other superstitious thinges , whiche ought not at this time to be in any question , for that vppon iuste groundes , god by his magistrate hath deliuered vs from them .

First of all then you iudge , that because these two thinges that remaine , come from the Iewes & Gentiles ( which yet you do not fully proue ) they ought vtterly to be refused .

The aunsuuerer .

It greueth yow to heare the rest , of the popish apparell that is abolished , rehersed with that which is retained : because no man can se a Iust cause why the one shold be receaued and thother refused . But as God by his Magistrates , had deliuered vs from those : so we truste he will deliuer his Church from these .

The Examiner .

And yet for all that S. De vnico bapt. contra Pet●l . cap. 9 : Augustines saying is in these thinges true : Regula verissima & inuiolabilis veritatis ostendit &c. The most true and inuiolable rule of trueth , doth shewe , that in all men ) meaning of heretikes ) that thing is to be improued and amended , which is false and vitious , that is to be acknowledged & receiued , whiche is true and right .

But let vs weye this reason futher , that woulde perswade vs to vse nothing , that was inuented by wicked and vnbeleuing authours . You yourselues say out of Polidor ( we knowe ) that God toke from the Egiptians linnen vestures , abused of them , and appointed the same for his owne seruice : and we vnderstande , that the Church of Christ before the tirannie of the Bishop of Rome , did chose certaine rites and orders from the Iewes , whervpon it may be truly thought , that it is no great matter from whom that thing first commeth , that serueth to godly vse . Moyses appointed tenthes , though Hercules had his tithes . Christ appointed it memoriall to be kept in bread & wine , though bread was offered before to Mithra . Who brought in mariages to be celebrate in Churthes ? a Bishop of Rome . who vsed the ring ging first in wedding ? Ter : de pre : aduer: Her: Ter ; de Ido ; Aug: epi : 118 : the Heathen . Whence are tihes taken vp till this day ? from the Iewes , whence were Seniours in the premitiue Churche and yet still ? from the Iewes . Easter day and whitsuntide , generall counselles toke from the Iewes . Besides Sundayes , Hie. in Gal , cap. 4 Eus. lib. 5. cap : 18 , hist. eccle , 1. Cor. 10. our fathers feared not to decree certaine Holidayes , though the Gentiles had their solemnities . Times of fastinges are appointed , though Martian the Heritike made lawes therof . But what neede long searching in this matter , when Saint Paule institute a feast in Christian Churches about the Communion time , though the Gétiles there away had their SYSSYTIA common banketes in their ydoles temples . And the Gowne that you your selues would so gladly minister in , seemeth to come either from Turkes or Papistes . It is like the age was neuer before this , that men made them selues scrupulous , whence that thing was taken , whiche might serue in common wealth or Churche , to some profitable ende .

The aunsuuerer .

Saincte Augustines rules make nothing ffor yow , except yow proue youre garmentes to be true and right . But where you do slander vs , to haue sayed , that God did take from the Egyptians linnen vestures . We wolde youe kne we that we are farre from that blasphemie , either to tinke or saye , that God learned of idolaters to set forth his religion . He toke lynnen vestures that were his owne creatures : he borrowed then not of the superstition of the Egyptians . Then what reasoninge call yow this . God instituted his seruice of suche thinges as had been abused : Ergo man may applie to Godes seruice what soeuer hathe ben abused , hauinge a plaine commaundement to the contrarie : accordinge to the customes of the Gentiles ye shal not do , yow shal not do so to the Lorde youre God what the Church hathe decreed withowe the warrante of Godes worde , is no preiudice to vs . The misterie of iniquitie wrought before the full age of the beaste . Loke ouer youre Chronicles , whether of Moses or Hercules was th elder , and see whether toke of others . Abraham is the first that payed tythes , that we reade of Christe toke no example of Mithra , ffor youre selfe confesse that breade onelie was offered to Mithra : And why not rather from Melchisedech ? yf yow had fette hit from the commune vsage of the Iewes , yow had gone nerar the marke . Mariages were celebrated openly before the Congregation , before the Bishop of Romes tyme . As for the wedinge ringe , if it came from the heathen ( as yow saye ) let it go to the heathen againe : it is not muche matter from whence hit came , sith hit came not from Christe . And for tithes at this daye , Caluine thincketh that they at taken of a politicque lawe , of Princes and not of the Iewes : for the Romane Emperours had them before they gaue them to the Chirche . Although in that they serued for the necessarie sustenance of the Ministers of the Iewes Chirch , they were politique ; not ceremonial . We knowe not what Seniors youe speake of , if youe meane th elders or Ministers , the Iewes had none suche : but if they had any thinge that was neither Ceremoniall nor superstitious . We mai well learne hit of them . As for Sondaye the Apostolicque Chirche chaunged hit , from the Iewes Sabaothe what a btoyle was in the Chirche , abowte the celebration of Easter , all learned men do knowe . At the last that tyme was appointed so that it shold not be like the Iewish passouer : as for other hollidays besid the Lordes daye wee haue littill occasion to commend the inflitution of most of them . Lykewise of fasting dayes of the which Montane and not Martian , first made lawes . But if yow be able owt of the first of the : Corr , and the 11 : cap : to proue a feast in the Church , to be instituted of Sainct Paull we haue great maruell : we find there a feast of belly chere condemnid , and men willid to eate there meate at home and not in the Churchis : But of the institution of any such feast , no likelyhod in the worlde : As for the Gowne we wold minister in , wether it came frome the Iewis Turkes or Papistes it skillith not for none of them abusith it supersticiously in their ministratione :

The examiner .

Well , be it as Polidore , Glossa ord. Hierome saieth , that the Egiptians vsed linnen clothes : yet Hierome findeth no fault with all the Cleargie of his time , who al vsed such white apparell , as appeareth in the confuration of the Pelagians , who laide to his charge , and other their apparel & ornamentes , as contrary to God . Quae sunt rogo inimicitia contra deum , si tunicam habuero mundiorem : Si espiscopus . presbiter , & diaconus , Aduer . Pel Lib : 1 & reliquus ordo ecclesiasticus in administratione sacrificiorum candida veste processerint . &c.

What enmitie ( I pray you ) is this against God : yf I haue a more cleane coate : yf the Bishop , Priest , and Deacon , and the rest of the Ecclesiasticall order , at the administration of sacrifice , go in white apparell ? It appeareth Saint Hierome chargeth them as Pelagians , who speake against white garmentes in the Churche . Neither were these vestures in price only in the occidental Church : but also in the orientall Churche , Hom. 60. as Chrysostome sheweth plainely in a Sermon to the people of Antioche , willing the Priestes to take diligent care to whom they did minister the Sacrament of Christes body and bloud , An. do , 400. saying : Hoc vestra dignitas est . &c. This is your worship , this is your safetie , this is your crowne : and not because ye go rounde about in the Church , in a white and a shining garment . So then in those fathers dayes men did not cauill against their white vestures in the Churche , because they were fetched from the Heathens or Iewes .

The aunsuuerer .

Yow thinke yow haue wone your spures to proue your whit lynnen surples , by your two placis of Ierom and Chrysostome : which aree all yow can say for them . And yetmake no thing in the worlde for allowing of them . For Ierom askith what harme it were , if they shold vse whit garments : he doth not simply affirme that they did were them . yow knowe the figure vsed in such putting of cases , fictio . Chrysostome saith hit is no part of theire worship to walke about with whith garnments , he doth not commende the vse of such apparell .

But to examine t●e placis seueralye , yow saye all the cleargy in Icomes tyme vsed such white apparel . Yow say : a great dele more than yow are able to stand by . For vow are neuer able to proue with all the lerning yow haue out of this place : ayther that all the clergi vsed them : or that the clergi vsed them onely in deuine setuis or that the cle●gie did vse them and not laye men also , or that they were of whit lynnen : or finally with out all controuersie that they were white , for the wordcādidus doth not ●pperlie signefie whit , but lightefhinīg , orlighte colored , as may apeare owt of Plynny lib. 35. cap. 6. where after he hath compted Cerusca to be of coler candida , he saith the best kynd of it is of Asia , which is purple . The poet Horace hath this verse , Rubro vbi cocco , tincta super lectos vestis canderet eburnos , where clothing dyed whith red scarlet , shined vpon Iuery beds here it is aplyed to red . Agayne who knowith not theses phrases candidus dies , a fayer daye , candidus sol , the bright sonne , &c. And in the place alledged it is manifest that candida vestis , doth signefi a clenely & somwhat gor geous or costly apparell , and that maye euident lye appere , both by the wordes going before and coming after . Which if yow wold haue added all men might haue sene how litil this place makith for Surplessis . The wordes before are these , Vnde adiungis gloriam vestium & ornamentorum deo esse contrariam . Quae sunt rogo inimicitiae &c. wheropon yow saye next that the glory of the apparell & ornaments , is contrary to god . I pray yow what cumytie is it against god , yf I haue a more clenely cote , yf the Bishop prest & Deacon , & the rest of the Ecclesiasticall order in ●e ministration of the Sacrifices shall come forth in a bright colored garment . Cauete clericicaueté monachi , viduae & virgines , periclitanmi nisi sordidas vos , atque pannosas vulgus aspexerit . Take hede yow clergie men , take hedt yow monkes widowes & virgins , you are in daunger except the comon people see you in filthy & ragged appatell . Taceo de hominibus saeculi , quibus aperte bellum indicitur & inimicitiae contra deum , si pretiosis atque nitentibus vtantur exuuiis . I speke not of lay men to whome open warre is proclaimed , & emnitie against god , yf they were costly & gorgeus apparell . bi these wordes it is out of doubt Ihetom spekith of gorgeous or clenely apparrell , what coler soeuer it was . not onely white apparrell comon to laye men , nor proper to prests vsed abrod , not onely in the Church , raither of any matter then linnen : for in his time linnen was vsed but of few : and of effeminat persons , such as were curtiers , as maie appere in diucrse placis , in this first Epist. ad Heliodorum , ad Nepotianum , in epitaphio Neopotiani , ad Gaudentium , & Erasmus as often hath notid , that is was scarse thought met for a man to were linnen next his skinne much lese aboue his gowne , & iestith after his manner that that sholdnowe become ecclesiasticall , that in old time was courtlike . But let us here what Ierom saith in other placis to the same purpose in his epi. to Marcella , of the sickenes of Blesilla , he saith : nos quia serica veste non vtimur , monachi iudicamur , quia ebrij non sumus , nec cachinmo ora dissoluimus , continentes vocamur & tristes , Si tunica non canduerit , statim illud & triuio , impostor & Graecus est , wee because , wee were not a silken garment , are iudged to be monkes , because wee are not drunke nor gape wide in laughter , are called continent & sad . yf our cote be not light collered or whith straight waye , wee here the common prouerb , a grecian and deceiuer , here againe , it is plaine that this Candor vestis , is referred not so much to the coler as to the costlines . Secondlie that hit was vsuuall apparrell , & thirdlie that it was not vsed of all the Clergy finally yf Candida vestes must nedes signefy a white surplese , here what Ierom saith speknig purposelie of the apparrell of prests , ad Neapolianum . vestes pull as aeque deuita●vt candidas . fly blacke garments euen as as well as whit garments . gallantnes & slauery must alike be auoided , for the one sauerith of dirtenes , the other of vaine glorie . But these garmentes were in price , in the Oriental Church . No doubt in great price , when Chrysostome saith plainely that all there worhpp was to discharg there duty : not that they shold go about in a white shining garmente . But where you ad in the Church , yow ad morethen is in the text & bewray your vniust dealing in the cause . yow had bene better to haue alledged the same place out of the 83. homily vpon Math. where these wordes are ( in the Church ) but what haue yow wone by this ? haue yow approued them to be whithe silke . Haue yow shewid that they were proper to the Church seruis ? And not common garments , such as both for lightnes in those hort countris , and also for estimacion , as is declared before , they vsed in those days to were . That which Chrysostom notith and discomendith as vnmete yow alleg and Command as mete : And though both out of Ierom and Chrysostom yow could proue all your desire , what preiudicie is that to ower cause .

The Examiner .

Here one thing must not be omitted that S. Ezec , 44 Hierome in the same place where he speaketh of the Egiptians linnen clothes , hath also these wordes : Porro religio diuina alterum habitum habet in ministerio , alterum in vsu vitaque communi : The religion of god hath one habite in the ministration , and another in common vse and life .

The aunsuuerer .

God forbid that your shold alledg the docters against the papistes , so frowardlie , as yow doe against vs , yow wold then discredit our comman cause , for that which makith altogether against yow , yow leue out , & wrest to your porpose that which makith nothing for yow : Sainct Ierom expounding the place of Ezechiel , where god commaundeth the preists of the old lawe , to put ou their lynnen garmentes , & other attire , when they enter into the holie place , & put them of whan they come out : declarith that god will haue nothing obserued , in his ceremonies , that agreth with the superstition of the gentils , & then notith what : spirituall doctrin may be gathered therby , for our lerning . His wordes are these . First concerning the putting of , of theire ministring garments . Per quae discimus non quotidianis & quibuslibet pro vsu vitae communis , pollutis vestibus , nos ingredi debere in sancta sanctorum , sed munda conscientia & mundis vestibus , tenere Domini Sacramenta , &c. wherbie wee lerne that wee must not enter in to the holi of holies , whith Dailie & Euerie kind of defiled garments , vsed in the comon life , but with a cleane consciens & cleane garments , to kepe or hold the Lords Sacraments . As for that which followith , they shall not shaue their hed nor let their haere grow long but shall round or poulle ther headd , it is plaineli shewed that wee must not haue our heds shorne , like the priest , & worshippers of Isys and Serapis , neither againe haue long heare , that is the maner of riotous persones , of a Barbarouse people , & of Soldiors . But that the honest habit of priests may be shewed by thier face . And after a few words , at it were aunswering a secret obiection , because the Egyptians ptiests did were linnen garments , also he saith . vestibus linaeis vtuntur Egyptii Sacerdotes , non solum intrinsecus sed extrinsecus , porro religio diuina alterum habitum habet in ministerio , alterum in vsu , vitaque communi . Feminalia recte assumuntur vt honestas decorq̄ seruetur , ne scilicet ascendentes altaris gradus , & in ministerio discurrentes , reuelent turpitudinem .

Rasa capita habet supersticio gentilis , vinum autem quantum ad me pertinet , non reor aliquem se abstinere gentilium . The Aegyptian priests wweare lynnen garments , not one●e with in , but also withoute , but the religion of god hathe one habit in the ministerire , and a nother in the vse and common liffe . The briches arwel taken , that honestie & comlynes may be kept least when they go vp to the alter steps , and rwne about their ministery , they reuele their fil thynes , the superstition of the gentills haue shauen heds . But wine for my part , I thinke none of the Gentils doth refuse . Here Ierome doth affirme that god wold not haue the priests of the olde lawe to shaue thier heades , because it was the marke of idolaters , nor to were theer holie lynnen garments abrode because the Egyptian priests did so : but he will haue them to wear breachis & to abstaine forme winne . which none of the Gentils obserue for religion . Whether this place be well alleged against vs that makith altogether for vs , let all men both lernid and vnlernid iudg . Yf yow wold take pains to rede ouer the place againe , yow shall see that hee spekith of the religion of the Iewis he priestes , and not of the apparrell of Christian ministers . Wher also yow shal , find , that abrode your priests did weare comon apparrell , contrarie to your former assertion ,

The same Hierome , lib. 42. cap. 53. in Esaiam vppon these wordrs . Non me inuocasti Iacob , &c. sayeth in the personne of God : Quod autem arbitraris obtulisse te mihi victimas , & arietes immolasse , scias cos à me non esse suspectos : quia mihi & idolis communes erant . And where as thow thinckest , thou hast offered to me oblations , and sacrificed rammes , knowe thowe that they were not receaued of me , becaucause they were commune to Idols with me . Thus Hierome in plaine wordes maketh for vs : though some crie with open mouthe againste vs that we haue neither scriptures nor doctores .

The examiner .

As for Platinas Albe , it is not here to be spoken of : neyther do men take for lawes , whatsoeuer Durandus wryteth . though yet out of his wordes no such necessitie nede to be gathered , as you would haue to folowe .

The aunsuuerer .

Platina his albe is heareto be spoken of , because by the formar boke of kinge Edward ( whereto the act of parliament referrith vs ) an albe is appoincted with a vestement , for a cope , for the administration of the Sacrament . and in some placis the preist at this dayewerith an albe . Durande though he be no lawe maker to vs , yet he his a great patron of yours in this cause , who with Manipulus curatorum & his felowes make this necessitie , loke the placeit is to plaine .

The examiner

Besides this , it is not though reason sufficient to detest the Surplesse or other apparel , be cause they may serue also for some signification . For the apparell , of Christian men woulde be suche , as it might speake , or as it were preache some part of godlines to them selues and others . 1. Pet. 3. So it seemeth S. Peter woulde haue women to order their attire . So Tertullian saieth : De pallio . De cultu foem . Ad fab. Ipse habitus sonat : The habite it selfe geueth a lesson . So in another place : Cur mores meos habitus non pronuntiat ? why doth not the apparel shew forth my maners : So S. Hierome sayeth : Tanta debet esse . &c. Such knowledge & learning should be in the Priest of God , that his going , mouing and all thinges , should by some signification , speake . He ought to conceiue the trueth in his minde , and to sounde out the same in his habite and apparell , that whatsoeuer he sepeaketh it might be doctrine to the people , Lib. 2. paed . cap. 10. mart Iulit . To his purpose hath Clemens Alexand. and Basill spoken : but it shall not be nedefull nowe to rehearse their testimonies , when as by these we may perceiue that vestures may haue their good significations : and yet are we not bounde to beleue euery fonde meaning , as suche ydle brained . Durandes do bring or collect .

The aunsuuerer .

Wee do not detest the apparell so muche for the signification sake , but for the supersticion . & if it plese yow , that the apparell must sound and pronounce : what can the apparrell of idolatrie sound of yow , but that yow are of the sect whose liuerie yow wear ? These placis all make against yow . As your profession is not popishe so bi these ffathers , your apparell shold be confotmable .

The examiner .

Wherfore yf you would haue waighed what god , Christ , S. Paule , and many godly men haue done in thinges inuented by Panims and mis beleuers : you woulde not for the first aucthours refuse a commoditie , but vse to Gods glory that , which others abused to his dishonour saying to them as Tertulian said to Pallium , a vesture of ydolatouts : Gaude palium , quia meliot de philosophia dignata est , ex quo Christianum vestire caepisti . Reioyce O Pallium , that a better kynde of philosophie hath vouchasafed to receyne the , since thou hast be gon to clothe a Christian .

The Aunsuuerer .

Wee vtterly deny that euer God or Christ , or S. Paull , conuertid any supersticions vse , or ceremonies , to the religion of Christ , that was inuentid by paynims , & miscreants to dishonor god with all . Yf anie godlie men haue done it , they did it not in that they wear godlie men , but in that they wer men . As for Tertulians cloke , it makith no more against vs , than his Shoes . You might haue made it more auncient then Tertulians time . for Typlion the Iewe knew In sinus , to be a philosopher by his cloke . The cloke was a garment of idolaters , but not an idolatrus garment , an habit that was the marke of a philosopher & not of a idolater such as be the habits that graduats wear in the vniuersities . and so wee rede in the monodie of Gregorie . Nazia zene , that S. Basils contrie men , receued the same philosophers cloke , in the vniuersitie of Athens , as a signe of thea● degre also the greke prouerbe , of them that were philosophers , so far as theis berde & cloke could make them : sufficientlie declarithe that though idolatours philosophers wore this weed , yet they did not wear it as idolaters , but as philosophers . The words that the cloke spekith , do manifestlie declare , that it was the comon habit of all conuertid Christians generallie , & not the proper weed of priests singulerlie . Therfore if Tertulian & other Christians , casting of the Romane gown , which all proud & wicked men vsed to weare , did put on the greke philosophers cloke , which was an habit of grauitie simplicie , & frugalitie . What makith this for wearing the badges of idolaters ? Tertulian & other Christianes in his time , changing thier religion changed their garments , you changing your religion kepe your old garments , stil euen a mark of popish religion , the caracter in the beaste . Tertulian affirmith that he castof the gowne , and put on the cloke , that he might reproue the vices that were vsed in the gowne : Taceo Nerones , Apicios & Ruffos &c. I say nothing of Neros , Apitius & Rufus , I wil giue a purgation for the filthimes of Scaurus , the dising of Curius & the Dron kennes of Anthonius , and remember that these among a great manie other were gown men such as cannot easelie be fownd in the clokenen . These filthie corruptions of the Citie , what speach can drawe forth & brethe away but his that wearith a cloke . the trayterusnes of of Gardner , the creweltie of Bonner , the baudrie of weston . which all did wear forkid capes , what spech can breth awaye , & driue on t of the real me , but his , that wearith a round capp . now see what Tertulians cloke makith for yow .

The examiner .

The next let that stoppeth you from wearyug these garmentes , is , that they haue ben abused to Sorcerie , Con●uring , and Idolatry : and yet when a man hath perused that whiche you haue vttered in many wordes , there is no more sayde against any apparell nowe remayning , then that the Surplesse serued to make holywater , without the whiche ( you say ) no cyrcle coulde be kept . These be but silly sleightes to dasel the eyes of the weake , on this maner , to make so huge a crie in so small a matter , yf a papist had you in handelyng ( whose wyckednes is shamefull , and religion most vnpure ) he would byd you loke ouer your booke better , when you say holywater cannot be made without a Surplesse .

The Aunsuuere .

Durand saith that the surples must be worne , in all seruice of the altar , & holy things , but all the seruis of the altar & hollie things , wear Idolatry and filthie Superstition , & therfore the surples was abused further than the making of hollie water . And where he saith it must be worne in seruis of all holie things wee thought he had ment holie watter also , but herin perchaunce wee might be deceaued for by all liklihod , wee haue not made hollie water , nor said masse , nor practised all popeholie seruice , so often as yow .

The Examiner .

Well , admit the Surplesse was vsed not only to make holiwater , but also some time to coniuring : must it therfore neuer serue to good vse againe ? Shall we make this lawe vpon your head , that such thinges as haue once serued to wicked purposes , can neuer be set vp in good place againe ? What and yf men coniure in their vsuall apparell ? What if men coniure with the robes , scepter , and crowne of Princes ? What yf men coniure in the name of the Lorde , or other Princes names ? Shall we of neceseitie throwe away all these thinges , as polluted with seruice of the deuill ? Howsoeuer you woulde make a purgation of these thinges , surely wise men both hath and can turne that to serue the glory of God , whiche once serued to bad vses .

The aunsuuerer .

Wee haue often times declared before , that those things which are necessarie & good must be retayned , though they haue neuer so much bene abused . And wee allowe according to Tertulians rule , in his boke De corona militis , whatsoeuer seruith the necessitie , profit , or honest confort of mans liffe : whosoeuer were the inuentor therof . But of other things not necessarie being in religion abused , we say whith him , oderis , ô Christiane , quorum authores non odise non poteris . Thow must hate , o Christian those things the authors wherof thow canst not chuse but hate . Marke I pray yow this distinction , it is not oures but Tertulians , & ansuerith to all yow can alledge in this matter . yf then vnnecessarie things must be cast awave , forth abuse , lest they confirme the abuse , how much more the Surplesse & other things that neuer had anie vse in the Church of Christ . Then gods name , his word , vsual apparel , robe septers & crouns of princis , are no more like A Surples , in this respect . then an apple like an oyster .

The examiner .

It is a notable saying of S. Augustine , touching the maner of the Citie of God in the apparell and diet of them that are made citizens thereof , that it chaungeth nothing : De ciui . dei . lib. 19 cap. 19. Si non est contra diuina praecepta : yf it be not contrary to Gods commaundementes : Vnde ipsos quoque philosophos , quando Christiani fiunt , non habitum vel consuetudinem victus , quae nihil impedit religionem , sed falsa dogmata mutare compellit : wherevpon it compelleth not the Philosophers when they are made Christians , to chaunge their apparel and diet , which hynder not religion : but their false opinions . This was the practise of the Churche of God , which nowe ( belike ) you woulde turne vpside downe : and yet a halowed and christened bell you can well beare to ring to a Sermon : you can be content Dirige money be conuerted to preachynges : solemasse priestes be made good preachers : you woulde not be displeased yf Monasteries to be plucked downe , were conuerted to good vses . If you loke on your Churches and Pulpyttes , you shall fynde that they were horribly abused . Be not therfore herein to rashe , in vtterly condemning those thinges , which wicked men framed for a tyme to their phantasie .

The aunsuuerer .

Sainct Augustine spekith of philosophers habits , wherof mention is made before , not of Idolaters garments , such as they put on , to doseruis to diuills : of comon apparell not preistlie vestiments , as for the moni the man the pulpit , or any thing else that may haue a good vse , in the religion & Churches of Christ , is owres , & not the Papists . But the surplesse the albe the cope , the capp , the tippet , the wide sleaue gown , &c. wherof ther is no good vse , but to make dissention , to offend the weake to confirm the obstinate , to greue the godlie , to retayne superstition , they are the Papists & none of owres . Yow shuld remember the generall rule of Tertulian , befor mentioned .

The examiner .

But sorcerers and coniurers ( you say ) for their instrumentes must needes haue helpe of thinges . 1. Re. 28. You make men marueile howe they coniured before Christe came : whence the woman that raised vp Samuell had her instrumenres consecrare : Act. 8. Act. 19. howe Simon Magus in the Apostles times wrought all his wonders : and what Priest made holiwater for the sonne of Sceua the Iewe : and howe nowe among the Painims and Turkes men are able to worke their feates , though none be there in Surplesses to helpe forwarde their worke . You shall finde it therefore otherwise then you say , that coniuring and sorcerie will continue but to well without these garmentes .

The aunsuuerer

Wee speke of Coniurers of our time & our countrie , and therfore wismen nede not maruel , how Iewes & painims did coniure before Christ , & turkes after Christ . But they may raither maruel to see yow wrangle so childishlie , about the moune shine in the water and that yow reproue in vs , yow comitt your selfe namelie to heape vp so many sentencis of scripture , to proue that which no man denieth , as though wee knew not that there was coniuring before Christ . And therfore must meruelle that yow maruelle at this .

The examiner .

There is a thirde thing that stirreth you to refuse this apparell and that is , the opinion whiche men had and haue still ( as you do thinke with your selues ) of these garmentes .

Whether the blinde papiste , the weake papiste , and simple Ghospeller ( as you tearme them ) haue these opinions nowe aduouched , it is rather phantasied of some , then beleued of the best part . Peraduenture you shewe what you haue taught them to suppose of these matters , and thefore trusting that they haue learned their lesson , you conclude thus of euery one of their mindes . And if it were so , that they had such estimation of these garmentes , you hearde out of S. Augustine the maner of Christes Church to be , to refourme their false opinion by holsome and sounde doctrine . D. Bucer . for there is no maner of order that men can take , wherein some may not haue a fonde opinion : As the Phariseys had in washing their handes , in their apparell , and yet the thinges are not taken away by the Gospell :

As also nowe some haue in fasting dayes , the Sundayes , fisshe dayes , almes gathered for the poore , in Sermons at burials , and such others : and yet it is not thought expedient , that such thinges out of hande shoulde be altered .

The aunsuuerer .

Experiens doth to much trie , that all these opinions are conceyued , of these garments , which wee must not maintaine by oure example which were nothing else but to geue offence . But you that are the best part beleue it not . Yf yow were abrod yow might heare the outcries of the people against yow for these things , yow might see decking of Crossis & Churchis with bowes , & flowrs , for gāgweke procession : if yow walked in the countrie , yow shold heare the comon voice saye . Poperie is not so euil as they make it for then they wold neuer commaund these things so streigthlie to be obserued . Yow shold heare : neyghbore played wee not a wise part , whan wee kept our Masse clothes & bookes , for by the masse neyghboure wee shall haue all again , one daye . Wee are bolde to tel yow that are aboue the talke of the rude people , euen there rusticall termes , because your eares are not so acquainted with them . Nor your eyes see so fare abrode : you might heare the questions of the simple gosplelers propounded : whether with safe conscience , they maye come to the seruis with ther presens , to allow this gere , yea some openlie confese they will not come : & yet yow cannot beleue it , yee pretend great knowleg in the state of the comon welth abrod , & yet haue litil vnderstanding of the peopls affection , if yow know not this . Secondlie , wee speke of such things as are neither necessarie nor profitable , for Christes Church , but rathere superfluus & hurtfull . As for fasting dais wee know none that are retayned , & wee wold wish that some fish dais were aither taken awaye or changed , to other times . Fasting is good , but prescribed dais of fasting , vnlese it bee in time of some common calamitie , sauerith of poperie . fish days for police are indifferent , so all other circumstances conserning indifferent things be obserued . And fish dais are not ffasting dais .

The examiner .

Concerning Doctour Bucers iudgement in this matter of garments , you first alleage a saying of his : but when , to whom , where , and of what particuler apparell , you declare not . In deede this good father , in the beginning of his letter to Bishop Hoopet hath , that he woulde haue ben at some great coste , so that this controuersie either had neuer ben moued , or very speedily reptessed and extinct , And in fewe lines after , he wisheth to beare some hard penaunce in his body , so that they were order lyput away ( not by priuate auctoritie ) in respect of the abuse ( I saye ) which he sawe had sogreat strength then in many places of Englande .

But you ( peraduenture ) fearing leste this his saying were not so strong vpon your part as you wished , yow farther say , that he willeth in suche case as ye are nowe , in no wise to receiue them . wherevnto you cite his exposition vpon the 18. Chapter of sainct Mathew .

This place yf you would haue indifferently rehearsed , you should haue opened to the worlde , that his minde was , that some ceremonies abused , might be stil retained . His wordes are these , in the beginning almost of that his exposition .

Fateor equidem , In cap. 18 Math. licet ab Antichristis inuectum sit . &c. Though whatsoeuer thing is decreed , contrary to the libertie of externe matters , it hath ben brought in by Antichistes , as the difference of persons , meates , dayes , places , and very many moe : yet because commonly men were perswaded that all those thinges were the commandementes of the Churche directed by the spirite of God , so receiued all those thinges as comming from the will of God : I ackowledge in deede , that reason it is , we vse circumspectly euen . now the libertie obtained by Christ , and with Paule sometime circumcise Timothy , that is , that we vse well some ceremonies , whiche others abused , taking occasion thereby to teach Christ purely , although by no meanes these inuentions of man can be compated with circumcision , or the like ordinaunces of God . Thus farre Doctour Bucer .

In this sentence though many thinges may be noted : as that the false opinion of men did not perswade him to caste all these thinges away : as that these thinges were not to be refused because they were the deuises of man ; as that occasion might hereby be taken to preache Christ purely , and suche other : yet it shall suffise to put you in minde , that he thinketh godly men may well vse some rites whiche were abused before time . So that if you take one peece of his exposition with another , you shall not neede to terme your betters and felowe seruauntes in Christ that receiue this apparell , to be enemies or shtinkers .

This wel learned fathers wordes , to his frend beyond the sea well wayed , maketh nothing against the orders nowe practised . For we may and do ( praise be to God ) holde faste Puritatem rituum et doctrine , the puritie of rites and doctrine , and also flee and derest the leuen of Antichrist , with all erroures and superstition , though we kepe these fewe ordinaunces , according to the rules of Gods booke . Wherin men had superstition before vs . There is a difference ( you knowe ) betwixt the puritie of rites , and the cleane taking away of all . But peruse this godly mans Epistle .

The aunsuuerer .

What can be more plainly declared , then that he wrot at Cambridg to a frend of his beyond the sea the iz of Ianuarii an 1550. as is alledged by Theodore Beza , a litill before his dethe ( and as it is like ) sence the epistlls which yow now haue translated in to English : by which words of the epistlle , Beza chargith Baldwin , for slandering Bucer , that he did allowe the reformacion of England in Rits & Ceremonies , and futher shewith that Bucers Iudgment might apere , in the reformation of Argentine , all though it was not altogether according to his mind . More ouer he saith all the best learnid men , & most religious bishopes of England , declare what they iudg of the retayning of these things & what they defier conserniug them , in theire late Apollogy : but your exposition of the putitie of rites , maynteynith the slander of Balduin , for the wold haue all superstition taken awaye & the things retained , so will the rankest papist in all Louayn saye :

But Peter Martyr Iudic 18. fol. 166. reiecteth the same chift , both off the Papistes and yo ue at this time . Danitae superstitionem & cultum Michae receperunt . &c. The Damites receaued the superstition and worshippinges off Micha . Euen so the Papistes haue translated strange Ceremonies , and almost infinite , from the Iewes and Gentiles into there masse . They saye they haue remoued the superstition from them , nay rather they haue in many partes increased hit . They haue off the Iewes , water , oile , incense , salt-garmentes , lightes , and many other such thinges , which in time off the Lawe , were not Idolatrous , when they leaned vppon the word off God . But no we they at vnpure , and supersticious , when they haue not the word off God . Heare this father . Who plainli affirmeth your garmentes to be vnpure , and supersticious because they haue not the word off God .

Therfore once againe wee must tell yow that the superstitious ceremonies not necessary , the surest waye to purifie them , is to take them cleane awaye .

Yow lightlie passe ouer that he callithe them the leuen of Antichrist wherbie some with most wordlie wisdom & vaine deuises wold Ioyne together God & Bellial thouching your cauillation vpon his words in the 18. of mathew fateor &c. wee neuer denied but Ceremonies well instituued , though they were abused might be retainid . yet Bucer spekithe but of tolleration for a time . Thefore yf there were once a time to circumsice Timothie , now it is a time if ever ther was anie , not to circumsice Titus , which if yow wold haue taken the paines to haue translated but 3. lines further , shold haue evidentlie aperid by the sentence of Bucer , it selffe . But that yow wold faine haue cloked . for he saith what is wont to be donne , not a few searing the trobell of the crosse , & goinge about in vaine to plese both God & man , euen there wher the gospell hath bene long time preached , where the word now requierith examples of dedes , pretendinge allwais the infirmitis of others , where in dede their own weakenes doth in this thing with hold them : doe bothe them selues serue mans traditions , & compell others thereunto . Also let the reder heare note , that by Bucers iudgment , distinction of persons , meats &c. was brought in by Antichrist . Secondlie that thay cannot be compared with circumcision , and thirdlye that they ought not to be retainid : for the gospell hath bene long preached . As for Iudging of our betters , charge Bucer and not vs . you deale with vs , as fathers & masters Iesting & somtime frowardlie quarrelling with theire children , lay a fault to there charg , & when the boy denyethe it & excusith him self : why then I ly saith he . the pore child cannot make his iust purgation , and defense but he accusith his father or master to be a lyar . So whan wee purg our selfes of rebellion & disobediens that is laid to our charge , wee iudg yow , wee condemne our Superiours &c.

The examiner .

Here you rehearse doctour Peter Martir by precemeale , when as there is no writer of these dayes more euidently against you . But be cause you woulde haue men to suppose that all the learned ranne vppon your side youe , are content also that this man should speake two wordes , rather then be thought to kepesilence . And touching this great Clarkes minde , peruse ouer his Epistle that foloweth , and loke on his Commentaries vpon the first to the Corinthians .

The Aunsuuerer .

Here yow wrangle as yow are wont to do , but Peter Martyr whose authoritie yow brag so much of callith them relikes of the Ammorites & that bothe in his epistelle before the commentarie to the Iudges , writen sence that which yow translate , & in his epistelle to the Bishopp of Elye , before his answer to Smithe which wo words although they do sufficientlye proue , that he wold haue such stuffe vtterlie to be abolished , yet beside them also yow haue before in this auswer in xii seueral placis sentencis of his , to the same purpose wherof all saue one , were written , sence the epistels that yow make so much of , which being well weyid , make littill for your purpose . And yet that it may apere how often & how ernest Peter Martyr is , in invehying against this stuffe , where & whan soeuer occasion seruith , wee haue added affewe mo sentencis of his . Cutauit vero Iehu templa Balis &c , 2. Re. 01. Iehu also caussed the Templs of Ball , to be destroyed , lest they shuld retorne to there formar vse : wherfore I thinke that manie do not well , which although they haue imbraced the gospel of the sonne of god , yet they haue kept still the instruments of poperie , after anye sort . And they haue prouided much better for godlines , which haue caused Images , Idolls & also the ornaments of poperie to be cleane cut awaye . Also whan he hathe spoken of the consecration of leuiticalll priests , he hathe these words ( Sublatis autem istis vmbris , 1. Sam. 7 nobis nihil relinquitur nisi impositio manuum , &c. ) But all these shadowes being taken awaye , ther is nothing left for vs , but laying on of hands . But the papists ( I wene ( that they might be more reuerencid haue translated to them selues all those Ceremonies and rites of Moses : they are clipped , shauen , washed , oynted and clothed . and I marvel somewhat why they are not circumcised . Hee Peter Martyr denieth that clothing to Christian ministers . & makith it proper to papists , as īmediatlie after he affirmith it to be a pece of ther Character , & a marke , of theirs . also writing apon Gedeons ephod , which he made for a pollitike end .

He affirmith that if God will not allowe rites and Ceremonies , of his own Institution , when they were done with outfaithe , 2. Reg. 2. how much lesse will he allowe those inuentions off men , which because they haue no ground of his word are altoger voide of faithe . And againe ( obiiciunt item nobis quod in sacris vtamur vestibus prophanis &c. speking of the papistes ) he saith they abiect also against vs , that in our holie seruice , wee vse comon garments : & in our common vse , wear no grauer apparell . In dead we confesse that wee follow Christ & his Apostells , which did not wear an apparell diuerse or differing from other men . Also in Iud. 10 fo. 117. repetith the like obiection of the papistes . ( Et denique quod nostrae ceremoniae , &c. ) And finally that our Ceremonies to sences of the fleshe are dry , and withowt plesantnes , they haue no garments , no pricke song , no Organes , no playerlike Masses . In the same commentarie , fo. 87. be aunswerith a great obiection of yours : concerning the sacrifice and woode that was dedicated to Baal , which God commaunded to be offered to him saying that therfore it is not lawful for vs to eate Idol offrings : and apply at our pleasure idolatrus Ceremonies to gods seruis , because god bi singuler priuiledg once comaunded yt , for he made lawes for men , and not for him selfe .

And vpon the 19. ch. fo. 174. he declarith how fare the authoritie of the ciuil Magistrat which yow vrge so vehemently against vs doth extend ( Subiicitur Ecclesiastica potestas magistratui , &c. ) The Ecclesiasticall power is subiect to the Magistrat , non in subiection spirituall but politicall . For concerning the Sacraments , and preachings , it is not subiect vnto him . For the word of god and the Sacraments , which the minister vsith , the Magistrat cannot bend , or bowe neither compell the pastors or teachers of the Chith to teach other wise . Or mynister the Sacraments otherwise then is prescribed by the word of God .

Conserning his comment , on the first of the Corrinth . wee haue vewid it , & somwhat wee haue found against yow , but nothing that makith for yow . Here wee bring to yow in dede Peter Martyr speking to yow in print & not out of broken papers .

The examiner .

Doct. Rid That glorious Martir of Ghrist doctour Ridley , you report , howe he being required of papisticall persecutours to do on all their massing apparell , that thereby the papistes might reioyce and worke their spite , he ( you say ) refused them , and spoke then vehemently against them . Surely herein he did like a constant professour of Christes religion , perceiuing the ende and purpose nought and wicked , whefore those thinges were then inforced vppon him . It was meete that he shoulde not then yelde one iote to them , that sought to bring him into spirituall bondage againe . Galat. 3. But euery man that will , may see a great vnlikelihood betwixt those times and ours , betwixt their vse then , and nowe-betwixt their ende and commaundeementes , & those that be now .

The aunsuuerer .

Yf the onelie end and purpose of the commaunders made Rydlie Inueygh so vehementlie & bitterlie against the popish garments he was much to blame to giue them so odius names , as to call them , abominable , folish , yea to fond for a vice in a playe , which in . v. yeares after shold be so profitable , so full of aedifing , so oderlie , so decent , for the best gospellers in England . But it is well known that this holie Martyr , repentid at his deth that he had manteynid them so much in his liffe . Lerne yow that liue , this good lesson of a worthy Martyr preparing him selfe to die . This was Cygnea cantio . the last swete song of that good Swanne .

The examiner .

What iniurie you do to that worthy Bishop Master Iewel , in framing his sentence to serue your humour , al men that knowe him , see , and futher vnderstand that he is not of your minde . You would faine [ belike ] make a number , yf you might , wherfore you will haue one way , that you want another . They that require your conformitie in these thinges , hauing by Gods lawe and mans , the ouersight also of Gods people in this lande , haue good hope that these thinges [ wherein they wishe that you go forwarde with them to the worke of Gods building ] wil do good , and not hurt , in this Churche at this season , according to those wordes whiche you bring out of that excellent worke of so learned a Bishop . Thei wel weyghe the nature of their people , the manifolde occasion they may obtaine hereby , to spreade abrode the sweete smelling sauour of the Gospell of Christ with diuers other the like considerations . You had done wel , if you woulde haue made some profe in these matters , before you so confidently bare the matter downe with your vndoubted asseueration that they do hurt , and want al good properties : as yf you saw in one of your paroeces , what is conuenient for the whole Realme . And here with this stoute deniall , wanting his profes , you conclude the opinions of men , which all both aliue and dead . are [ as doth fully appeare ] cleane contrary to your iudgement in these matters of garmentes .

The aunsuuerer .

Wee do that lernid Bishopp no Iniurie to apli a trew minor to his trew & lernid maior . In the howse of god that is hurtfull that doth no good . these rittes doe no good , Ergo they be hurtfull . Yow say theare is hope they shall doe verie much good . But he further affirmith that all Ceremonies ought to be clear lyuelie & and albe to edifie : but these rits , are nether clere liuelie nor albe to edifie . ergo , they ought not to be in the Church . But it is yow that do his worthie bishope Iniury , to helpe Harding his aduersarie with an aunswere , who for breking the bred in 3. peecis , may aunswere whatsoeuer yow aunswer or can aunswer for surplesis , the one being as indifferent as the other . But what this lernid Bishops iudgement is of all relickes of Papistrie maye apere in his aunswer to the fourth diuision in 4. page of the same Boke wher he yeldith fower resons why he refused to call it passione Sondaye , not because he was ashamed of the passion but because it was taken of the papists , to be called soe . His wordes are these . neither do wee refuse your fantasies because they be cat holike as yow surmise , but because they be your own , deuised by your selfe of late dais , many of them contrary to gods holie worde & are not catholike . Now let all men iudge whether it be a greater matter to call passion Sondaye then to weare the apparell that is vrged . We are suar so to call it , is of it selfe but a thing indifferent , & of small importaunce . Thus ye se still how our rule out of Tertulian holdeth .

The examiner

In the fourth and last place , yow consider what shall happen to your selues , yf you receiue these rites , as you maye wel do with the rest of your brethren , who fight in the lordes warfare , a good fight , hauing faith and a good conscience : You shal be thought ( you saye ) to bring the people into Egipt againe .

The wearing of this apparell , which ( as you often testifie ) is in his owne nature indifferent , can not be likened to the bondage of Egipt , whiche is slauerie to sinne , errour and superstition . The substaunce of popishe religion may well be compared to those cheynes , for that many are sure tyed there , with ignoraunce and blyndnes , from the which you may still go forwarde ( to Gods prayse and your owne discharge ) by discrete and diligent teachyng , to loose Gods people sitting in darkenes , and in the shadowe of death , as mani a godly man doth yet still , folowyng the worthy examples of wyse preachers aforetime , who in such like thinges contented them selues with the maner of the region , where they preached , Aug. Epi. 117. and neuer willed them to lay aside their Heathenis he apparell , De ciui . dei . lib. 19 cap. 19. no more then almightie God commaunded his people to caste away from them the Aegiptians clothes , when he deliuered them thence , and preached vnto them newe lawes and ordinaunces . Exo. 12. Though Moyses suffered the people so redemed from captiuitie , to vse the Aeigptians apparell : yet no man thought that he woulde euer bring them into Egipt againe . Thus then by doctrine yf you labour still to pull some out of captiuitie and darknes , 1. Tim. 4 and go before your flocke on that maner , as S. Paul speaketh , you should be a paterne , in worde in conuersation , in loue , in spirite , in faith , and purenes , you nede not to deeme of your selues worse then all godly men will iudge of you , that is , that you be workemen that nede not to be ashamed , rightly diuiding the worde of God , 2. Tim. 2 Mat. 24. and geuyng Gods houshold meate in due season . You know howe you must instruct in meekenes an obedience all men , 2. Tim. 2 prouing yf God at any tyme will geue them repentaunce , Rom. 2. that they may vnderstande the trueth , and that they may come to amendement out of the snares of the deuill : And also you knowe , 2. Pet. 2. that wherein you teache other men , you must specially teache your selues , so doyng , you shall not leade your flocke to Egipt gaiane . For they turne to Egypt , Hebr. 6. who wallowe againe in the myre of their sinnes and errours , who after they were once lightened , and had tasted of the heauenvly gift , and were made partakers of the holy ghost , make a mocke of the sonne of God ( as it is wrytten to the Hebreues ) whose case is ve●ie lamentable .

The aunsuuerer .

The bondag of Egypt is slauerie to superstition . the substans of popish religion is the verie bondag . superstitius ceremonies are the Cheins wherbie wee wer tyede to it . Yow cauill vaynelie of the Egyptian garments , none of the Israelites wer Egyptians priests , that wore Idolatrus garments , yow say well that wherein wee teach other men wee must teach our selues . Wee teach other men to abhorre all popishe Ceremonies , therfore wee must not Imbrace these onre selues . Matth. Illirycus a lernid man , writing against Adiap horistas or indifferent men , altogether agreing with vs and ouerthrowing yow . callith the ceremonies garlike , & onnians of Egypt .

The examiner .

You haue taught ( you say ) as Tertullian did : That nothing must be taken from the Idoll-Tertullian in that place speaketh of that thing , De corona milit. whiche was first inuented , A canditatis diaboli of the Deuils professours , or of them that were meer Idolatours , then he speaketh of that thing which was , Dicatum ipsis a primordio , dedicated to set foorth the worship done to idols from the beginning , which two conditions you finde not in these matters nowe talked of . For they were brought into the Churche by them that professed the same God and Christe that we do : neither were they appointed to serue any , sauing the true God , synce the comming of the sonne of God : And therfore you misreport this authoritie , and such like .

Tertulian dissenteth very muche from your opinion in the wearyng of abused apparell as it appeareth where he handeleth somewhat this matter , saying : De idolol . Fyrst the causes must be considered , for the which a man doth any seruice or duetie : Then he graunteth that the purple robe whiche was vsed of idolatrous priestes , myght be worne , De cor. mil. if it where a token of byrth , of kynne , or of order . Moreouer , in that place whence you fetche your auctoritie , he thynketh that somethynges inuented and abused of Idolatours , may serue both to our vse , and the seruice of God , yf they haue any profite , helpe , or comfort for the lyfe of man , as at large is there set out , where he inueyeth sharpely against the Garlande , being then worne both of idolatours among Christian men without all kynde of commoditie , & also of the Idoll it selfe , which was decked therwith . Wherefore ( yf you had meant plainely ) you myght haue translated these wordes , In habitu idoli , in the habite of the idoll : and not in the habite of an idolatour , as you haue done .

The aunsuuerer

Wee must thinke you handle the controuersie with litle consciens when yow wold wrest Tertulian out of our hands , who most planielie & directllie handlith oure verie case● , as Petir Martir in a maner confessith , & yow do not gretlie denie . Wee saye that papists are the diuills professours , & that they first dedicated them to the seruice of theire Idolls , for they neuer did good seruis in the Church of Christ . Wee agree with Tertullian , that manie thinges abused may be retainid , even garments , but not such as were abused to Idolatrie , for he saith Tantum enim honoris nomine , conferebantur h●is qui familiaritatem Regum , merebantur &c. They were geuin onelie to honor such , as deserued the familiarity of kings , for if they had bene bound to the prishod or to any seruice of Idolls , doutles such men of holines & constancie , ( he meanith Ioseph & Daniel ) wold streight waye haue refused such defiled apparrell . Note heare that Nabuchodonoser & Darius , by whom Daniel was preferred to honer did confesse the trew god . And commaunded all men to do the like Dan. 4. & 6. and Tertulianus affirmith that if the apparell had bene such as was vsed to Idolatri Daniel wold not haue worne it , for he saith that purple & other signes of dignities & poweres that in the begning haue benne dedicated to the dignities & powres of idolatrie ( habent prophanationis suae maculam ) . They haue their spot of prophaning with the idolls them selues . Againe ( tunicam si induas inquinatam per fe poteris forsitan illam non inquinari perte , sed tu per illam mundus esse non poteris ) . Yf thow put on a garment that is defiled by it selfe , thow maist perchaunce no defile it by the , but thow by it canst not be cleane . Nulbitus licitus est apud nos , illicito actui ascriptus . No apparell is lafwll for vs that hath bene appoincted for an vnlaufull act . speking of apparell appoincted for idolatrie . To be short in his boke of prayer he condemnith all Ceremonies vsed in prayer ( that haue not authoritio of the scripture ) for superstition , & for this ca●se at the lest not to be vsed , because they make vs like the gentils ( vt est quorumdam positis paenulis orationem facere , sic enim adeunt ad idola nationes ) as the manor of some men is to put of their clokes when they praye , for so the Gentils go to worshipp thier Idoles . To put of a cloke & put on a surplesse are they not indifferent ? they are bothe in nature & substans good , in vse & ceremonie forbiden . & why shold this be enioyned ▪ Let these places be wel considered & then iudg whether Tertulian make against vs , and whether wee haue miscontrued his wordes or no.

The examiner .

What you haue taught also ( as you write ) of the Masse and the Popes holy creatures , you may in that stil continue as occasion shall serue . Yet it is a great marueile that you see not , that it is farre worse to communicate in false religion and idolatrous Sacramentes , then to weare the apparell of the Heathens and suche like , specially when all false and erronious opinion is quite remoued from them .

The aunsuuerer .

Wee cannot but teach that all his holie creatures , are vnholie & superstitius though the creation from god be good . Yow maruaile that wee see not that it is far worse to communicat in false religion & Idolatrus sacraments , then to weare the apparell . Wee maruele gretlie , what you should mean to saye soe . S. Paule prouithe to the Cort. that to eate meat offered to Idolls , was to communicat with diuells . 1. Cor. 10. Euen as to eat the Sacrament is to communicat with Christ . And to eate of the sacrifices is to be pertakers of the alter . What difference there is betwene papists & gentils in this respect , Wee confesse that wee see not .

The examiner .

Tertullian saith , that many Christian men toke vp Pallium a Heathenishe vesture . De pall . Ad fab. Cle. recog. 7. 2. Tim. 4. Hierome saith , that many Godlie men wore the Greke Philosophers weede , so that thefore thei were pointed at as they went . Clemens ( if you like his auctoritie ) saith , S. Peter had vpon him that garment called Pallium . Chrysostome , saith , that Paule also sent for his Pallium , Ter. de pal Au gell . lib. cap. 15 a Romish garment , for his vse , and yet these were not thought , naye they woulde not communicate with the Gentiles in their seruing of deuils . Many an lionest man weareth a Hatte , which was the priuilege of Ceres priestes and Iupiters : and yet detesteth idolatrie . Many a godly Leuite preached Christ ( no doubt of it ) in his Iewish apparell : and yet he was well knowen to flee Iewishe religion . It is not then ( as you thinke ) as great an euill to weare garmentes abused , as to be partaker of idolatrous sacrifice , specially when as to the godly Christian all thinges are sanctified .

The aunsuuerer .

Colleworts twise sodden are poison , wee haue before answered off Tertulians cloke , that it was the mantel of a philosopher , not of an Idolatert , as for the hates of Ceres & Iupiters priests , wee haue not to do with them , no more then with Cardnalls hattes . yow shold proue that Ceres & Iupiters priests , if they were made ministers of the Church of Christ , might retaine ther hattes , by which they were knowen to be Ceres & Iupiters preists . Our hattes are not priuilegiati galeri , priuiliged hattes appointed to serue in religion , but comon & ciuil hattes , For the leuites wee answered before , that they had no such vsuall apparell distinct from other men as yow fantasy . Act. 4. As clear as yow make it , yow shall neuer proue that , such Christian leuits preached or ministred in their Ephods . Barnabas was a leuit . What Iewish apparell wore he ? wee rede that he had so litill regard to his apparell that he rent it with Paull whan he saue God dishonored . Paull was a Pharisie but he had giuen ouer pharisaical apparell , Act. 23 and wore as yow graunt ( pallium ) a romish garment , ergo not ●ewishe . And in the counsell he was fayne to declare , & that with a loud voyce , that he was a pharise , he was not known by his garment to be one .

The examiner

Now at length are you come to the Epiloge [ as it were ] or full conclusion of your worke , Epilog . and pretende great seare , where as litle needeth and alleage feeble causes for so stoutea refusall , and bragge of couragious constancie to much out of time . Yf you haue taught [ for your ] teaching you oftentimes tell vs of , as wherein ( belike ) you coulde not sometime vndiscretely behaue your selues ) that no holines is to be hanged vpon any kinde of apparell : that they be superfluous of them selues toward our saluation : that some haue ben abused to superstition : and yf you so declare still , and yet not without lawfull auctoritie , vpon some good considerations , and to an ende both politicall and also profitable : nowe vse these thinges whiche you knowe other godlie are contented to weare , not for holines , saluation , or superstition , but that they woulde ( as it were ) redeeme the time of preaching Christes Gospell to his people , by Gods grace , none of those sortes of men , for whom you ( and we also ) are carefull , shall by you iustlye be hurt : neyther shall your doctrine ryghtly be called into suspicion , as whiche was and is all one , though it be vttered in apparell , rather appointed by order , then deuised and chosen by priuate mens heades .

The Aunsuuerer .

Yf wee had as large consciencis as yow haue gowne sleaues , perchaunce wee nede not feare , but for anie thing that yow saye wee haue greate cause to feare , lest wee offend , and bring our doctrine , that wee haue taught into doubt and that wee shall teach into supicion .

The examiner .

This many men thynke very straunge in you , that you stande in greater feare that men will beleue rather your apparell then your wordes : your coate , then your preachyng : your owteward shewe then your inward minde , often opened by speache , and plainelie set before them to perceiue . What do you iudge of gods people , that they be so muche without sense & vnderstanding ? Yow feare the thing your selues imagine , and imagine euen what you list .

The Aunsuuerer .

Wee iudg gods people to be as by experiens wee find them , and it is raither like they will beleue our doings , then our sayings . yf wee saye all markes of Idolatrie are to be abhorred , manie seing vs vse them our selues , will thinke thear is no great daunger in vsing them , nor truth in our wordes , what so euar wee saye of them . yt is the best persuasion , if the tonge & the cote talke & theache one thing . Ar for offence gueing , our protestation will not excuse vs , no more then if a man wold willfullie dig a pitt breake a bridg , or lay a log , in the waye & then cry out & saye O. take hede you fall not . wee must stopp holles not make them take awaye stombling blockes , not laye them , & then bid men bewar of them .

The examiner .

Here next may be seene your seuere and sharpe sentence vpon all you brethren and felowe ministers , when yow in your selues pronounce but hell and dampnation to all them which vppon sincere ▪ loue towarde the flocke of Christ , 1. Cor. 16. hauing a wide doore opened vnto them by gods singuler grace , to spreade abrode the knowledge of Christ , haue not such regarde in whar apparell they shoulde enter and feede , as to be found faithful dispensours of the misteries of God . In which paynefull seruice yf they go forwarde to the ende , shall heare not that terrible voyce vpon the naughtie seruaunt , which you vtter : but the confortable saying to the good seruaunt , well god seruaunt . &c.

The aunsuuerer .

Nay here may be sene your false and vncharitable interpretation to say that we threaten to others , that wee fear to our selues . Of other we saye once againe , they stande or fall to their Lorde , who by his fyre shall bourne all the haye , strawe , and woode , and saue all them that holde fast vpon the onelye foundacion Iesus Christ .

The examiner .

In the iudgement of all wise men , you had done right well , Luk 19. yf you had either stayed your penne in this place , or spoken more plainly for the discharge of some , when as you notifie to the world , that the earnest solicitours of these matters were blouddy persecutours , and still beare backe in the religion of Christ .

Surely the sagest and sobrest in this common wealth & Church , conceiue a better opinion of them that first stablyshed these thinges by lawe , and of them also which of duetie nowe cal vpon the execution of the same , as they may rightlie of them , by whom chiefelie all Romishe religion , with superstition and errour , was through the spirite of God bannished this Relame .

Well , howesoeuer it hath pleased you for spite against some one , to bring a great number of very godly in obloqui and suspition , yf the thinges required be indifferent in them selues , and not so horrible & daungerous for this Churche at these dayes ( as the prudent and chare ouerseers iudge , euen as it were in the sight of Christ , to whom they must render an accompt for his deare flocke ) what matter is it who they be that call , vpon you to accomplishe your duetie ? Vnlesse you thinke that no man ought to make generall lawes in the like cases , but let euery Curate be supreme gouernour in his owne parishe . which loose imagination , what inconvenience it will drawe with it , you may well consider .

Howe innocent handes they haue from the bloud of all Gods Saintes , who vnder a most godly , vertuous , and pure regiment , deale with you all maner of wayes , that you slippe not from your loyall obedience , yea though they shoulde vse towarde some of you charitable seueritie , terrible lenitie , auengement medicinall ( as S. Augustine setteth out the true ecclesiasticall discipline ) not only the wise within this Realme vnderstande : but the enemies also without , contra . li Petil. li. 3. cap. 4. confesse .

The Aunsuuerer .

All wyse men be not of one iudgement , but they may easelie see if they wil that to be trew which wee haue sayde , that the earnest soliciters in these matters , seke not the aduancement of gods glorie , but the defacing of the Gospell . Yow allwayes burthen vs wythe enuye , as though we ment all them that by anie meanes , medle with the matter , to be blodie persecuters , nay all godlie men wish , and wee as gods Ministers , may speake , that those prudent and chairie ouerseers which tythe mint and anice wolde raither execute mercie and Iudgment , mercie in prouiding moe then ten thowsand Preachers , not hindering those few that are . Iudgment in disserning betwene halfe Papistes , Hietlinges , and faithfull and learned preachers . Iudgment in restoringe discipline to the Churche withoute the which it is no perfecte Church , therbie to punishe the euill and cherish the good . not to be so straight in exhortinge trifles as though nothinge wanted to the perfection of the Church but the apparell of ministers

The examiner

But because your enemies , as you surmize , put you in minde of your duetiful subiection , you will not be cowards ( you say ) yeelding your weapons to your aduersaries handes : As if by wearing this apparell , the sword of Gods worde were wrested out of your handeling , 1. Cor. 10 where as ( you knowe well enough ] in these orders : you may manfully caste downe strong holdes , ouerthrowe imaginations , and euery high thing that exalteth him selfe against the knowledge of God , and bring into captiuitie all vnderstanding , to the obedience of Christ , yea and take vengeaunce of all disobedience , as S. Paule describeth at large the faithful preachers weapons and fight .

The aunsuuerer .

We count Hipocrites and papistes , to be our Enimies , not such as you surmize , to who me we sholde yeld , the power of gods worde though wee kepte the bookes , yf wee did that which wee haue taught to be contrarie .

The examiner .

Nay God graunt this vndiscrete dealing of yours , be not a voluntarie throwing awaye of your weapons in dede , marueillous daungerous also to Christes people committed to your charge , whyles you open thus a gappe for hirelynges to crepe in , and defende not your flockes from the great peryls of heynous errours , and vngodlynesse of lyfe , because some hauyng interest , aswell as you , in your sheepe , shewe vnto you an orderly poy at or two .

The examiner .

This is vntimelie iestinge , to knowe we are violentlie thruste out , and saye wee willinglie leaue our flockes , wee trust that they which can defend the cause alone with out vs , will prouide for the Church with out vs which God graunt .

The examiner .

Last of all , you request two thynges . Tit. pri. Rom : 14. The one : That you may kepe your conscience vndefiled . This your petition in some thinges touching the worshyp of God , myght haue his place : But in these matters ( which you call indifferent ) what is it that shoulde defyle you ? The thing hit celf or your weake opinion of it ? The thyng it selfe doth not pollute you : For ( as sainct Paule sayth to the pure , 1. Cor. 8 all thinges are pure . And agrine : Nothing is common or vncleane of it selfe . Nowe as concernyng your weakenes ( thankes be to God ( that which the same S. 1. Cor. 8. Paule reporteth of the Corinthes , may be verified of you : we all haue knowledge . And : we are sure that an Idoll is nothing in the worlde , and that there is none other God but one . It were to be wished ( and would to God there were no examples now of it ) that none of them which pretende herin a straitnes of conscience , Math. 23 did straine a Gnat , and swallowe a Camell .

The aunsuuerer .

Last of all yow repete youre principalls so often craued , and yet neuer graunted that these thinges , are indifferent , then that there is no waye to spotte our consciencis , vnlesse they were weake , as though they may not be spotted by giuing offense to others , we maruell wyth what learninge and consciens yow alledge Saincte Paulls affirmation , that which was but his aduersaries obiection , wee haue all knowledg , when immediatlie after in plaine wordes he denieth it , to be trew , sayeng all men haue not knowledge . Yf anie of our iudgement in this matter straine at a gnatt , or swalloweth A Cāmell , we haue not nor will not take vpon vs to defend them .

The examiner .

Next you require , freedom to reach your flockes by doctrine . This thing your bounden obedience may easilie obtaine : where as by your owne wifulnes , you depriue your selues therof . Then you would go before your shepe in that which you haue thaught . If it be as farre as becommeth your owne persons and degree , you shall deserue thankes , whensoeuer you perfourme it . For though it chaunce so oftentimes , that many thinges are to be taught of them selues indifferent : yet in your example it shall not be lawefull for you to vse them before your paroeces as you list . Meete is it that Christian people heare diuers times of the freedome of conscience , in meates , places , times , and dayes : and yet neither yow nor they ought to disturbe politicall order lawfully taken .

The aunsuuerer .

Yet againe we depriue our selues , whan all the worlde knoweth we are depriued by others , and wolde gladlie parte from our liuing , vpon condicion we might preach Christ purelie . S. Paull was gladde that Christ was preached wheather it were of occasion or good will . God graunt the same mind to all our Bishops and magistrates . our requests were made in humble suet and were of the fathers of the Clergie them selues thought , resonable , we hope the Quenes Maiestie will giue a more mercifull answer then yow haue , who haue bene in all your treatise against vs your poore , bretherne a cruell Orator .

The examiner .

Whiche disturbaunce of publique quiet in rites and ordinaunces ( which may be for the varietie of places diuers , and yet to be straitly obserued ) what a great offence it is , not only the Scriptures may teache you , & the vsage of Ghristes true Church : but also the determination of this Church in Englande , both agreed vpon in kyng Edwarardes dayes , & also testified and subscribed by them selues , who nowe woulde gaynsay their owne doynges then . The wordes which the whole Sinode were well pleased withall . & wherunto all the Cleargies handes are set to be these :

It is not necessary that tradicions and ceremonies be in all places one or vtterly lyke , for at all tymes they haue ben dyuers , and maye be chaunged according to the diuersies of Countreys , tymes , and mens maners , so that nothing be ordered agaynst the worde of God . In the articles agreed in the last Sinode . Whosoeuer through his priuate iudgement , wyllyngly and purposely doth openly breake the traditions and ceremonies of the Church , which be not repugnaunt to the word of God , and be ordeyned and approuued by common auctoritie , ought to be rebuked openly ( that other may feare to do the like ) as one that offen deth against the common order of the Church , and hurteth the auctoritie of the Magistrate , and woundeth her consciences of the weake brethren .

After these Godly mens iudgementes , if you go before your flocke in this quiet maner , your example veryly shall edifie much .

Thus therfore , if we all shal be faithful & wise seruauntes , geuyng our maisters houshol de their duetie of meate in due season , and also be founde by our Lorde , when he commeth , so doing , happy shall we be and we shall haue our portion , not with the hypocrites , where is weeping and gnashing of teeth : but with the blessed in the kingdome of the most mightie God , which is kyng of kynges and Lorde of Lordes , to whom be honour and rule euerlastyng . Amen .

The aunsuuerer .

The articles of the Sinode haue such conditions annexed to them , that wee nede not feare to subscribe to them againe in the former , so that nohing be ordered against the word of god in the latter which be not repugnaunt to the word of god according to these conditiones we praye god that all men may decree and obey orders .

The examiner .

But let vs folowe the trueth in loue , Ephes. 4. and in all thynges growe vp into hym which is the head , that is Christ .

The aunsuuerer .

It is the thing that we wish to followe , the truthe in loue and in all thinges to growe vppe into Christ , which is the head and not to grow backeward to Antichrist .

The examiner .

Neuerthelesse , in that whereunto we are come , let vs proceade by one rule , Phil. 3. that we may be of one accorde .

The ausuuerer .

You shold haue added the wordes goinge before , let vs thefore as manie as be perfect be thus minded , and yf yow be otherwise minded , God shall reueale that same vnto yow yf yow wolde be content , that as manie as be perfect , continew in the same minde , we wolde be glad to proceade by one rule , that we may all be of one accorde to the which wee wish yow wolde with vs saye . Amen .

FINIS .