The truth is ( O Hedoni ) I seke too haue knowledge of a thing , but as yet I cannot fynde that whych maketh for my purpose .

What booke haue you there in your bosome ?

Ciceros dialoge of the endes of goodnes .

It had bene farre more better for you , too haue sought for the begynnynges of godly thynges , then the endes .

Yea , but Marcus Tullius nameth the the ende of godlines which is an exquisite , a far passing , and a very absolute goodnes in euerye puincte , wherein there is contained all kynde of vertu : vnto the knowledge ther of whosoeuer can attaine , shuld desire none other thing , but hold himselfe hauyng onely that , as one most fully content and satisfied .

That is a worke of very great learning and eloquence . But doo you thynke , that you haue preuailed in any thing there , whereby you haue the rather come too the knowledge of the truth ?

I have had such fruite and commoditie by it , that now verelye hereafter I shall doubt more of the effect and endes of good thinges , then I did before .

It is for husband menne too stande in doubt how farre the limittes and merebākes extend .

And I cannot but muse styll , yea , and wonder very muche , why ther hath been so great controuersie in iudgementes vpon so weightie a matter ( as this is ) emongist so well learned menne : especially suche as bee most famous and auncient writers .

This was euen the cause , where the verite of a thyng is playne and manifest , contrarily , the errour through ignoraunce againe in the same , is soone great & by diuers meanes encreaseth , for that thei knewe not the foundation and first beginnyng of the whole matter , they doo iudge at all auentures and are very fondly disceaued , but whose sentence thynke you too bee truest ?

Whan I heare MARCVS Tullius reproue the thyng , I then fantasie none of all their iudgementes , and whan I heare hym agayne defende the cause : it maketh me more doubtfull than euer I was and am in suche a studie , that I can say nothyng . But as I suppose the Stoickes haue erred the lest , and nexte vnto them I commend the Peripatetickes .

Yet I lyke none of their opinions so well as I doo the Epicures .

And emongist all the sectes : the Epicures iudgement is most reproued and condemned with the whole consent and arbitreinent of all menne .

Let vs laye a side all disdayne and spite of names , and admitte the Epicure too bee suche one , as euery man maketh of hym . Let vs ponder and weighe the thyng as it is in very deed . He setteth the high and principall felicitie of man in pleasure , and thiketh that lyfe most pure and godly , whiche may haue greate delectation and pleasure , and lytle pensiuenes .

It is euen so .

What more vertuouser thyng , I praye you , is possible too bee spoken then this saiyng .

I knowe thei doo so , but the● erre in the vocables of theise thinges , and are very ignoraunt of the true and natiue significations of the woordes , for if wee speake of perfecte thynges , no kinde of menne bee more righter Epicures , then Christen men liuing reuerently towardes God and man , and in the right seruice and worshiping of Christ .

But I thinke the Epicures bee more nerer and agree rather with the Cynickes , then with the Christien sorte : forsoth the Christiens make them selues leane with fastynge , bewayle and lament their offences , and eyther they bee nowe poore , or elles theyr charitie and liberalitie on the nedye maketh theim poore , thei suffer paciently too bee oppressed of menne that haue great power and take many wronges at their handes , and many men also laughe theim too skorne . Nowe , if pleasure brynge felicitie wyth it , or helpe in anye wyse vnto the furderaunce of vertue : we see playnly that this kynde of lyfe is fardest from al pleasures .

But doo you not admitte Plautus too bee of authoritie ?

Yea , yf he speake vprightely .

Heare nowe them , and beare awaye wyth you the saiynge of an vnthriftie seruaunt , whyche is more wyttier then all the paradoxes of the Stoickes .

I tarie to heare what ye wil say

Ther is nothyng more miserable then a mynd vnquiet & agreued with it selfe .

I like this saiyng well , but what doo you gather of it ?

If nothing bee more miserable than an vnquiet mynde , it foloweth also , that there is nothing happiar , then a mynde voyde of all feare , grudge , and vnquietnes

Surely you gather the thing together with good reason but that notwithstandyng , in what countrie shall you fynde any such mynde , that knoweth not it selfe gyltie and culpable in some kynde of euell ▪

And I suppose there bee verye fewe , but that thei bee offenders in this thynge .

And in good soth I take it , that al those that bee purdged , are clere : whych wiped out their fautes with lee of teares , and saltpeter of sorowfull repentaunce , or els with the fire of charitie , their offences nowe bee not only smalle grefe and vnquietnes too them , but also chaunce often for some more godlier purpose , as causing than too lyue afterward more accordyngly vnto Gods commaundementes .

In deede I knowe saltpeter and lee , but yet I neuer hearde before , that faultes haue been purdged with fire .

Surely , if you go to the minte you shall see gould fyned wyth fyre , notwithstandyng that ther is also , a certaine kynde of linen that brenneth not if it bee cast in the fyre , but loketh more whiter then any water coulde haue made it , & therefore it is called Linum asbestinum , a kynde of lynen , whyche canne neither bee quenched with water nor brent with fyre .

Nowe in good faith you bring a paradox more wonderful then all the maruailous and profound thynges of the Stoickes : lyue thei pleasasauntly whom Chryst calleth blessed for that they mourne & lament ?

Thei seme too the worlde too mourne , but verely they lyue in greate pleasure , and as the commune saiynge is , thei lyue all together in pleasure , in somuche that SARDANAPALVS , Philoxenus , or Apitius compared vnto them : or anye other spoken of , for the greate desyre and study of pleasures , did leade but a sorowefull and a myserable lyfe .

These thinges that youdeclare bee so straunge and newe , that I can scarcelye yeoue any credite vnto them .

Proue and assaye them ones , and you shall fynde all my saiynges so true as the Gospell , and immediatly I shal bryng the thynge too suche a conclusion ( as I suppose ) that it shall appeare too differ very lytle from the truth

It shal be doone if you wyll graunt me certayne thynges or I begynne .

If in case you demaunde suche as bee resonable .

I wyl take myne aduauntage , if you confesse the thyng that maketh for mine intent .

go too .

I thynke ye wyll fyrste graunt me , that ther is great diuersitie betwxt the solle and the bodye

Euen as much as there is betwene heauen and yearth , or a thyng earthly and brute , & that whiche dieth neuer , but alwayes containeth in it the godly nature .

And also , that false deceiueable & counterfeited holy thynges , are not too bee taken for those , which in very dede be godly .

No more then the shaddowes are too bee estemed for the bodies , or the illusions and wonders of wytchcraftes or the fantasies of dreames , are too bee taken as true thynges .

Hitherto you answer aptly too my purpose , and I thynke you wyl graunt me this thyng also , that true and godly pleasure can reste and take place no where but only on such a mynd that is sobree and honest .

What elles ? for no man reioyseth too beholde the Sunne , if his eyes bee bleared or elles delecteth in wyne , if the agew haue infected hys tast .

And the Epicure hymselfe , or elles I am disceiued , would not clippe & enbrace that pleasure , whiche would bring with it farre greater payne and suche as would bee of long continuaunce .

I thynke he woulde not , if he had any wytte at all .

Nor you wyll not denye this , that God is the chiefe and especiall goodnes , then whom there is nothyng fayrer , there is nothyng ameabler , ther is nothing more delicious and swetter .

No man wyll deny thys except he bee very harde hearted and of an vngentlernature then the Ciclopes .

Nowe you haue graunted vnto me , that none lyue in more pleasure , then thei whyche lyue vertuouslye , and agayne , none in more sorowe and calamytie then those that lyue vngratiously .

Then I haue graunted more than I thought I had .

But what thing you haue ones confessed too bee true ( as Plato sayth ) you should not deny it afterward .

Go furth with your matter .

The litle whelpe that is set store and greate price by , is fed most daintely , lieth soft , plaieth and maketh pastime continually , doo you thinke that it lyueth plesauntly ?

It dooeth truely .

Woulde you wyshe to haue suche a lyfe ?

God forbyd that , excepte I woulde rather bee a dogge then a man ,

Then you confesse that all the chief pleasures arise and spring from the mynd , as though it were from a welspryng .

Forsoth the strength and efficacy of the minde is so great , that often it taketh away the felyng of al externe and outward pain & maketh that pleasaunt , which by it selfe is very peynful .

We se that dayly in louers , hauyng great delight to sytte vp long & too daunce attendaunce at their louers doores all the colde wynter nyghtes .

Now weigh this also , if the naturall loue of man , haue suche great vehemency in it , which is a commune thyng vnto vs , both with bulles and dogges , howe much more should all heauenly loue excell in vs , which commeth of the spirit of Christ , whose strengthe is of suche power , that it would make death a thing most terrible , too bee but a pleasure vnto vs .

What other men thinke inwardly I knownot , but certes thei want many pleasures which cleaue fast vnto true and perfect vertue .

What pleasures ?

Thei waxe not rich , thei optein no promotion , thei banket not , thei daunce not , thei sing not , thei smell not of swete oyntmentes , thei laugh not , thei play not .

We should haue made no mention in thys place of ryches and prefermente , for they bryng wyth them no pleasaunt lyfe , but rather a sadde and a pensiue . Let vs intreate of other thynges , suche as they chiefely seeke for , whose desyre is to liue deliciously , see ye not daily dronkerdes , fooles , and mad menne grinne and leape ?

I see it

Do you thynke that thei liue most pleasauntly ?

God send myne enemies such myrth & pleasure .

Why so ?

For ther lacketh emongist them sobrietie of mind .

Then you had leuer sit fastyng at your booke , then too make pastime after any suche sorte .

Of them both : truly I had rather chose to delue .

For this is plaine that be twixt the mad man & the drunkerd ther is no diuersitie , but that slepe wil helpe the one his madnes , & with much a doo the cure of Physicions helpeth the other , but the foole natural differeth nothing from a brute beast except by shape and portrature of body , yet thei be lesse miserable whom nature hathe made verye brutes , then those that walowe theim selues in foule and beastly lustes .

I confesse that .

But now tell me , whether you thynke them sobre and wyse , which for playn vanities and shadowes of plesure , booth dispice the true and godlye pleasures of the mynde and chose for them selues suche thynges as bee but vexacion & sorowe .

I take it , thei bee not .

In deedethei bee not drunke with wyne , but with loue with anger , with auarice , with ambicion , and other foule and filthie desires , whiche kynde of drunkenes is farre worse , than that is gotten with drinking of wine . Yet Sirus that leude cōspaniō of whom mention is made in the commedie , spake witty thynges after he had slepte hym self soobre , and called too memorie his greate and moost beastlye drunkenes : but the minde that is infected with vicious & noughty desire , hath muche a doo too call it selfe whom agein ?

How many yeares doeth loue , anger , spite , sensualitie , excesse , and ambition , trouble and prouoke the mynde ? How many doo wee see , whiche euen from their youth , too their latter dais neuer awake nor repent them of the drunkennes , of ambition , nigardnes , wanton lust , & riatte ?

I haue knowen ouermany of that sorte .

You haue graunted that false and fayned good thinges , are not too bee estemed for the pure and godly .

And I affirme that still .

Nor that there is no true and perfect pleasure , except it bee taken of honest and godly thynges .

I confesse that .

Then ( I pray you ) bee not those good that the commune sorte seeke for , they care not howe ?

I thinke they be not .

Surely if thei were good , they would not chaunce but onely too good men : and would make all those vertuous that they happen vntoo . What maner of pleasure make you that , doo you thinke it too bee godly , which is not of true & honest thynges , but of deceatfull : and coometh out of the shadowes of good thynges ?

For pleasure maketh vs to liue merely .

Yea , nothyng so muche .

Therfore no man truely liueth pleasauntly , but he that lyueth godly : that is , whiche vseth and delecteth onli in good thynges : for vertue of it selfe , maketh a man to habound in all thynges that bee good , perfete , & prayse worthy : yea , it onely prouoketh God the fountaine of all goodnes , too loue and fauour man .

I almost consent with you .

But now marke howe far they bee from all pleasure , whiche seeme openly emongist all men too folowe nothyng , but an inordinate delectation in in thynges carnall . First their mynde is vile , and corrupted with the sauour and taste of noughtie desires , in so muche that if any pleasaunt thing chaunce them , forthwith it waxeth bitter , and is nought set by , in like maner as where the welle hed is corrupted and stynketh , there the water must nedes be vnsauery . Agein ther is no honest pleasure , but that whiche wee receaue with a sobre and a quiet mynde . For wee see , nothyng reioyseth the angry man more , than too bec reuenged on his offenders , but that pleasure is turned into pain after his rage bee past , and anger subdued .

I say not the contrary .

Finally , suche leude pleasures bee taken of fallible thinges , therefore it foloweth that they be but delusions and shadowes . What woulde you say furthermore , if you saw a man so deceaued with sorcerie & also other detestable witchecraftes , eat , drynke , leap , laugh , yea , and clappe handes for ioye , when ther wer no such thyng there in very dede , as he beleueth he seeth .

I wolde say he were both mad and miserable .

I my self haue been often in place , where the lyke thyng hath been doone . There was a priest whiche knewe perfectly by longe experience and practise , the arte to make thynges seme that they were not , otherwise called , deceptio visus ,

He did not lerne that arte of the holy scripture ?

Yea , rather of most popeholy charmes and witchecraftes : that is too saye , of thinges , cursed , dampnable , and wourthy too bee abhorred . Certayne ladies & gentlewomen of the courte , spake vnto hym oftentimes : saiyng , they woulde coom one day too his house and see what good chere he kept : reprouyng , greatly vile and homly fare , and moderate expenses in all thynges . He graunted they shulde bee welcome , and very instauntly desired them . And they came fastyng because they would haue better appetites . Whan they wer set to dyner ( as it was thought ) ther wanted noo kynde of delitious meat : they filled them selues haboundantly : after the feast was doone , they gaue moost hearty thanckes , for their galaunte cheare , and departed , euery one of them vnto their owne lodgynges : but anone their stomackes beganne too waxe an hungred , they maruayled what this shuld meane , so soone to be an hungred and a thirste , after so sumptuous a feast : at the last the matter was openly knowen and laught at .

Not without a cause , it had been muche better for than too haue satisfied their stomackes at their owne chambers with a messe of potage , them too be fed so delitiousli with vain illusions .

And as I think the commune sort of men ar muche more too bee laught at , whiche in steede of Godlye thynges , chose vaine and transitory shadowes , and reioyce excedyngly in suche folishe phansies that turne not afterwarde in too a a laughter , but into euerlasting lamentation and sorow .

The more nerelier I note your saiynges , the better I like them .

Go too , let vs graunt for a tyme these thynges too bee called pleasaunt , that in very dede ar not . Would you saye that meeth were swete : whiche had more Aloes myngled with it , then honye ?

I woulde not so say and if there were but the third part of an ounce of Aloes mixt with it .

Orels , would you wishe to bee scabbed because you haue some pleasure too scratch ?

Noo , if I wer in my right mynd .

Their weigh with your self how great peyne is intermyngled wyth these false and wrongly named pleasures , that vnshamefast loue filthie desire , much eatyng and drinking bring vs vnto : I doo omitte now that , which is principall grudge of conscience , enemitie betwixt God and man , and expectation of euerlastyng punishēment . What kynd of pleasure , I pray you is ther in these thinges , that dooeth not bryng with it a greate heape of outeward euilles ?

What bee thei ?

We ought to let passe and forbeare in this place auarice , ambition , wrath , pryde enuy ; whiche of their selues bee heuy and sorowful euylles and let vs conferre and compare all those thynges together , that haue the name of some chief and special pleasure : wher as the agew the hedache , the swelling of the belly , dulnes of witte , infamy , hurt of memory , vomyting , decaye of stomacke , tremblyng of the body succede of ouer muche drynking : thynke you , that the Epicure would haue estemed any suche lyke pleasure as thys , conuenient and wourthy desire ?