The Romish Fisher caught and held in his owne net. Or, A true relation of the Protestant conference and popish difference A iustification of the one, and refutation of the other. In matter of fact. faith. By Daniel Featly, Doctor in Diuinity.

THE ROMISH FISHER CAVGHT AND HELD IN HIS OWNE NET .

OR , A True Relation of the Protestant Conference and Popish Difference .

A Iustification of the one , and Refutation of the other .

In matter of FACT . FAITH .

By DANIEL FEATLY , Doctor in Diuinity .

Theodoret. Dial. 2. Cap. 24. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Orthodox . Thou art caught in thine owne Net .

LONDON , Printed by H. L. for Robert Milbourne , and are to bee sold at the great South-dore of Pauls . 1624.

TO THE MOST Reuerend Father in God , the L rd Arch-Bishop of Canterbury his Grace , Primate and Metrapolitane of all England , &c. my very good Lord . May it please your Grace :

I Haue euer , as much as lay in mee , declined , and earnestly contended against all contentions , and publick Conferences in poynt of Religion , with Romish Priests , and Iesuites . For , Poperie ( as I haue oft learned from your Grace ) is a doctrine of lyes ; and as it maintaineth lyes , so it can be maintained by no better support , then of lyes . In all conflicts with men of that faction , though their redoubted wrastlers , in grappling with our Diuines , are put to the worst , yet ( like Pericles in the Theatre ) bee they indeed neuer so much foyled , they will go about , by their eloquence , to perswade the Spectators , that they receiued not , but gaue the foyle . And as Lysimachus , when he receiued a sore wound from Alexander in his fore-head , had it presently bound vp , and couered with a glorious Diademe : so when any of their side are wounded sorely in any skirmish with vs , their fellowes presently binde it vp , and couer it with a Crowne of a surmised victorie . I well knew , and foretold the Pitcher of the field , that whatsoeuer the issue of the combate were , Master Deane of Carlile and my selfe , should be notwithstanding conquered in effigie , and led in triumph in many a Pageant at Doway , Bruxels , Rhemes , and Rome , as since we haue seene in Letters , and gazettaes from beyond the Seas . Omnia praecepi , atque animo mecum antè peregi . Yet knowing that truth is strong in her weakest , and falshood is weake in her strongest Champions ; and being vrgently desired by the friends , and personally challenged by the enemies of our most holy Faith , to appeare as a Second in her sacred & iust quarrel , malui in illo praesertim legum et iustitiae publicae iustitio Iesuitas fractos , quàm despectos dimittere : I chose in that high floate of the Iesuites pride and hopes , rather by an encounter to represse their insolencie , then by a refusall increase their arrogancie . Neither was the diuine Assistance and benediction wanting at the Conference , nor since : for by it the old Gentleman ( whose intended satisfaction drew on this meeting ) was settled ( as himselfe vnder his hand twice professed ) and resolued in that point , which before left a scruple in his conscience . And by occasion of this Dispute , the Chronicles of the Reformed Churches haue beene better searched into , and some most vsefull Relations and Treatises touching the Visibility of the Church , brought to light , and more publick view then before . And , albeit his Maiesty , vpon the first noise and mis-report of this disputation , seemed to distast it , yet when the whole truth of that which passed that day , together with the occasion and issue thereof , appeared to his Maiesty in its natiue hiew ; the former cloud , which threatned a bitter showre , was by your Graces fauourable breath , suddenly blowne ouer : and then the true Relation of that Conference , finding the skie cleere , stole wings to , and from the presse , and flew freely abroad , euery where checking and controuling the Iesuits false Relations , and plucking from their heads those Lawrell garlands , wherewith they had crowned their temples , for their owne noble exployts that day . It could not bee expected , that this printed Relation should haue beene otherwise entertained by Master Fisher and Master Sweet ( the Popish Combatants ) , then it was ; who , after a month or two , set vpon it in print , and dealt with it , as the wife of Anthony did with Tullies * * Because it truly wounded her husband . tongue , after his death : they thrust it thorow and thorow with needles , and stabbed it againe and againe with their poysoned pens ; the one writing an answer to it ; the other , a censure of it . To both these Pamphlets , this Reply is addressed . In the former part , Master Fishers Answer to the Fisher catched in his owne Net , is censured : in the latter , Master Sweet's Censure is answered . And because opposita iuxta se posita , magis elucescunt , I haue printed Master Fisher's Text with my Reply thereunto , vt dum haeretici hominis venena lector cognoscit , libentiùs orthodoxi bibat antidotum . If any thing be omitted , the occasion and reason of the omission is not omitted . Had I set down all the Iesuites battologies , Idem delicti fierem reprehensor et author .

Whatsoeuer I haue done heerein , I submit to your Graces censure and fauourable construction thereof . I acknowledge , it is not a worthy present for your Grace : yet because it is * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . my first fruits in this kinde , it of right belongeth to the high Priest ; the rather , because the growth of it was vpon your sacred gleabe . The Stork , which alwaies leaues one of her young ones in the house where shee breeds , for the Owner thereof , teacheth mee this poynt of gratitude , to offer that to your Grace , which was bred vnder your Graces roofe ; Siue legas , quo dabo siue tegas .

Did not these , and many other priuate respects , challenge this dedication to your Grace : yet the sweet influence which your Graces gouernment continually distilleth vpon Gods Inheritance , among vs , would cause from any heart and pen not barren , the returne of some sweet spiration of praises to God , and thanksgiuing to your Grace for your incessant trauels in Gods cause . The costly oyntment , which on Palme-Sunday last flowed abundantly from your lips , so cheered vp and reuiued that numberlesse Auditory , that your Graces Name is as a most fragrant oyntment , sending foorth a most sweet sauour through the whole Kingdome . What should I speake of the most happie and ioyfull newes of our thrice-noble Prince's returne out of Spaine : whereof your Grace was the first siluer Trumpet to the City ? And ( God bee blessed for it ) the Trumpet gaue not an vncertaine sound . Those glorious night-Tapours which were set so thick together in the streets , that they made a kinde of Galaxia in the City , were all kindled early in the morning at your Graces sacred Lamp . Sicut Marcelli praelio ad Nolam , saith the Orator , populus Romanus primò se erexit , posteà multaeres prosperae consequutae sunt . As the Roman State , after many disasters , first began to cheere vp againe at Marcellus his victory at Nola , and afterwards much good fortune followed : so , after much sorrow and more feare , the happy Returne of our Prince first cheered vp our drooping spirits ; and , after that , many happie things haue followed : whereof , vnder his Maiestie , your Grace haue been , and are , together with your noble Associates in this high Court of Parliament , the principall Instruments . Ride on , in the Lords march prosperously , with your honour , because of truth and righteousnesse , and your right hands shall teach your terrible things ; terrible things to the Whore of Babylon , but comfortable to Christs afflicted Spouse . The good will of him who dwelt in the bush , make your Aarons Rod to flourish more and more , to the glory of his Name , aduancement of the Truth , honour of the Priest-hood , and your owne endlesse ioy and comfort . This we all of the Tribe of Leui are bound to pray for in generall , and I my selfe more specially , as beeing

Your Graces most humbly-deuoted Chaplaine in house , and seruant , DANIEL FEATLY .

The Preface to the Protestants Relation of the Conference , IVNE 27. 1623.

BEing commanded by my Lord his Grace of Canterbury , from his Maiesty , to certifie the truth of that which passed in a late conference , in point of Religion , at Sir Humfrey Linde's house in Sheer-Lane , in London : we , who were present at the Conference , partly , out of the fresh memory of such passages as we then obserued ; but especially , by help of such Notes as were taken in the Conference it self , subscribed by both the Disputants , drew vp , within a week after , as perfect a Relation of the substance thereof , as we could : wherein as we added nothing to the aduantage or preiudice of either party ; so wee omitted nothing of moment , in the Current of the Arguments and Answers . As for some interlocutory speeches of the right honourable the Earl of Warwick , who diuers times seasonably interposed , and , when the Disputants or standers-by grew into any heat or distemper , discreetly tempered both sides , Ille regit dictis animos , & pectora mulcet . — those passages we inserted not into our narration , because , the Earle beeing not then in London , we held it incongruous , without his Honours knowledge , to vse his name to the King . For other omissions , the Iesuites are beholding vnto vs : for , they were in fauour of them ; wee beeing loth to bee vngues in vlcere , to bee thought to rub too hard vpon a gawle , but rather desirous to carry the whole Relation as fairly and passably as might be . 2. Cor. 12. 13. We had thought , the Iesuites would haue pardoned vs this wrong .

After this originall Draught was by vs tendered to his Grace of Canterbury , and by his Grace deliuered to the Kings Maiesty , some Copie ( as we vnderstand ) was taken , for the satisfaction of a Person of quality : which , passing from one to another , in the end fell into the hands of some Stationers ; who , without licence or knowledge of those whom it most concerned , committed it to the Presse , de questu magis , quàm quaestione soliciti . And the better to vent this new wine , they set a faire Garland before the dore , intituling it , The FISHER caught in his owne Net . Which Title was not deuised nor prefixed by any of vs : we willingly leaue the vanity of such affected inscriptions to our Aduersaries , who make themselues ridiculous in this kinde . One intituleth his Answer to D. White , WHITE dyed black . Another cals his woodden Pamphlet , The Gag of the new Religion , or of the reformed Gospell . Another , his Reply to M. BELL , Cecidit BELL , The dolefull knell of THOMAS BELL. This is not the sound of AARON'S golden Bell ; but rather of the tinkling Cymball mentioned by Saint PAVL , 1. Cor. 13. Fancies and Iigs make no good Church-musick . Nobis non licet esse tam disertis , Qui Musas colimus sacratiores .

For the Title therefore , wee approoue it not : but for the Conference it selfe , it containeth nothing but the truth , whatsoeuer the Aduersaries giue out to the contrary , who ( as it seemeth ) hold it a work of supererogation , to forge and coyne signall and transcendent Leasings for the Catholick Cause ; for , although the Iesuites , at this Conference , were often vncertaine , and alwaies very slow and tardy in their Answers , and ( in fine ) answered nothing , but that they would not answer Doctor FEATLY his instance in CHRIST and his Apostles ; yet haue they or their Schollers proclaimed in Gath , and published in Ascalon , such a victory as neuer was heard ; much like the wonderfull coniunction of the superior Planets , which was ne●er seene .

About a weeke after the Conference , the noble Earle of Warwick , who had bin present at it , hauing occasion to passe ouer the Seas , and comming to Saint Omers , had the Company of Doctor Weston at his Inne ; to whom this Doctor ( taking the Earle for a Romane Catholick ) told for fresh and most happy newes out of England , that at a Conference betweene Father FISHER and SWEET , Iesuites , and two Protestant Ministers , in London , the Iesuites had quitted themselues so well , and the Catholique faith preuailed so farre , that two Earles , and an hundred other of the Auditory were gayned to the Church of Rome by this Incounter : of these two Earles , the party to whom hee spake , was one , who could not but smile at this Relation . Risit Atlantiades ; et me mihi , perfide , prodis , Me mihi prodis , ait ?

A pretty Comick Scene , where the Spectator is made an Actor , and a false person put vpon him to his face : a renowned and constant Protestant , borne downe to be a Romish Proselyte . As for the reuolt of the other Earle , and pretended Centurie of Protestant Romane Conuerts , we beleeue it as firmely , as that a a Vitae Sanct. Brigittae . Vitae S. Aldelmi . S. BRIGET laid her Wimple , and Saint ALDELME his Chesible vpon a beame of the Sunne , which supported them . That Saint NICOLAS , b b Festivale de Sancto Nicolao . while hee lay in his cradle , fasted Wednesday and Fryday ; these daies hee would not suck , but once in the day . That c c Legend . de Sancto Patricio . Saint PATRICK caused a stolne sheep to bleate in the belly of him that had eaten it . That the corps of d d Legend . de Sancto Stephan . S. LAVRENCE , at the coming of Saint STEPHENS body , smiled for ioy , and turned it selfe to the other side of the Sepulcher , to make roome for him ; e e Ep. Clem. ad Iac. in Ep. Pontif. that CLEMENS wrote a Letter to Saint IAMES the brother of our Lord , seuen yeeres after hee was dead ; that f f Vide Breu. & picturas Dionys. vel interrog. Paris●enses . Saint DENNIS carried his head in his hand three miles , and rested at each place of the posts , that are set betweene Paris and Saint Dennis ; that g g Legend . de Dunst. & picturae pass●● . Saint DVNSTONE held the diuell fast by the nose with a paire of tongues ; that the h h Hist●ire de N●stre Dame de L●retto . chamber of our Lady was carried by Angels through the Ayre , from Palestine to Loretto , in Italy ; i i Annot. in Clemanges ex Caesario . that our Lady helped Saint THOMAS BECKET to mend or stitch his hayre-cloth ; k k Legend . de 〈◊〉 . Cant. that a Parrat crying out , Saint THOMAS help me , was deliuered from an Hawk ; l l Legend . de L●p● . that Saint LVPVS shut vp the diuell in a tankard all night ; that m m Legend . de 〈◊〉 . vid. M●l●h . 〈◊〉 . Theol. Saint DOMINICK made the Diuell hold the candle to him till hee burnt his fingers ; that n n Vitae Francisci . Saint FRANCIS swallowed a Spider in a Chalice which Spider came whole out of his thigh ; that the o o Cheney Martyr Carthus . Image of the Crucifix turnd tayle to GREGORY the Monke , when hee went from the Vespers , to walk in the Chapter - house ; that p p Sedul . Francisc . Fryer ANDREW , to correct his appetite of eating birds at the Table , by the signe of the Crosse , commanded them to fly away after they were rosted ; q q Author of the Relation of the Western Religion . that the Thunder of the Popes excommunications so blasted the Hugonotes , that their faces were growne as black and vgly as the diuell ; r r Vitae Iu●●j . that FRANCIS IVNIVS had a round clouen foot like an Oxe ; s s Beza rediuiuus . that BEZA recanted his religion before his death ; t t My Lord of Londons Legacie . that the reuerend Doctor KING , late Bishop of London , died a Papist ; or , u u Interroga vicin●● de re iam recenti . that the Protestants at Black-●ryers , by knocking certaine pins out of the timber , caused that late & lamentable fall of the floar : wherin about 200 Papists were assembled , and neere a 100 slaine . They who teach pious frauds , and write of holy hypocrisy , and doctrinally deliuer the lawfulnesse of equiuocation , may securely report , whatsoeuer maketh for the Catholique Cause . The more incredible and palpable the Lie is , the more merit in him that maketh it , and in them that beleeue it . Popery is a doctrine composed of Lies : and Philosophy teacheth , that all things are fed and maintained by such things of which they are bred and made . The aliments of Popery must bee correspondent to the elements of which it consisteth : and verily as hee said in the Poet , Si ius violandum est , Regni causa violandum , if a man must transgresse the Law of honesty and Iustice , he must doeit for a Kingdome : so it is like they are resolued , if a man must lye , certainely hee must lye for the good of the Catholick Religion ; and if lie in so good a cause , lye to some purpose .

The first report concerning the issue of this Conference , was of a silly woman , said to be present , and conuerted thereby to the Romish faith , who forsooth stamped vpon her English Bible , and solemnly renounced the Protestant Religion vpon it ; protesting , she would neuer trust hereticall Translation any more . But , alas ! this was but a silly lye , made by some p●isne ●ouice of the petty forme , to see how a lye in this kinde would take . The higher Schollers in the Iesuites Schoole , thought it behooued them to make a Catholick or vniuersall lye for the Catholick cause , by giuing out , that the whole company of Protestants present at that Conference , was gayned to the Romish faith , yea , and many more Protestants then were there also for 100 , some say , 400 ▪ is the summe of the supposed Conuerts ; whereas there were not neere a hundred persons in both parties in all at the Conference ; and ( as wee conceiue ) neere 20. were professed Papists , and knowne Recusants : and for the rest , which were Noble-men , Gentle-men , and Gentle-women of quality , with some few Diuines , there was not one of them any way staggered in Religion by this meeting ; but on the contrary , they haue openly profest , that they were much established and confirmed in the truth of the Protestant Religion by it : and Master BVGGES himselfe , ( whose satisfaction by this Conference was principally intended ) who before had doubted of our Church , after this Disputation , professeth himselfe fully resolued through the mercy of God : to whose grace we commend all that loue the Truth in sincerity .

As for those , who contrary to the euidence of truth , and so many testimonies beyond all exception , are yet resolued to beleeue what the Iesuites report for their owne aduantage in their owne cause ; the Iesuites , wee say , who maintaine , that a man may vtter an vntruth in words without the guilt of Veniall sinne , so hee be sure to make it vp by a mentall reseruation : vpon such as stand thus affected , wee bestow the blessing of q q August . Thuan. ad An. 1556. Caramalis Caraffa Lutetiam Regni Metropol●m ingreditur , solitâ pompâ , tanquam Pontificis Legatus ; vbi cùm signum Crucis , vt fit , ederet , verborum , quae proferri mos est , loco , ferunt eum vt erat securus de numme animo , & summus Religionum derisor occursante passim populo , in genua procumbente , saepiùs secretâ murmuratione haec verba ingeminâsse : Quandoquidem , &c. Cardinall CARAFFA : who , when the people flocked to him in great multitudes to be blest by him , ( beeing ariued at Paris , comming as Legate from the Pope ) , lifting vp his eyes deuoutly to heauen , and making ▪ according to the manner , crosses in stead of the accustomed forme of Episcopall benediction , blessed the honest vulgar French-men in these words : Quandoquidem iste populus vult decipi , decipiatur : If so be this people will bee gulled or deceiued ( with such shewes and fopperies ) , let them be gulled or deceiued .

THE PARTICVLAR CONTENTS OF THIS BOOKE . THe occasion , and issue , of the late Conference had ▪ Iune 27. 1623. betweene Doctor White , Deane of Carlile , and Doctor Featly , with Master Fisher , and Master Sweet Iesuites . Page 1. A Relation of what passed in the said Conference , touching the Visibility of the Church , page 6. Additions to the former Relation of the Conference , page 29. An Attestation , concerning some particulars , set downe in the said Relation , entituled , The Fisher catched in his owne Net , page 38. A Remonstrance sent in a Letter by Doctor Featly , to his worthy friend , Sir Humfrey Lynde , touching the former Conference held at his house : wherein is maintained , that , 1 Conferences in poynt of Religion are lawfull , and vsefull , and therfore to be iustified . 2 The Method also vsed in the former Conference , maintained and iustified . 3 The proofes alledged in the Conference , were direct , not diuersiue . H* A succinct or briefe discussion of the two Questions , which were propounded by the Iesuite ; by Distinctions . Assertions . 1 viz. Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible ? L1 . 2 Whether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages ? O2 . A Defence of Doctor Featlie's proceedings in the Conference , ( R3 . ) wherin Rules are prescribed for Disputations : and it is prooued and confirmed , that , 1 No conclusion of Faith may bee prooued out of meere humane testimonies . S1 . 2 The Protestants Church might be visible in all Ages , yet their Names not now extant . S3 . 3 The Romish Church was inuisible in the first and best Ages . T1 . A Prooeme to Master Fisher's Answer to the Conference : wherein is shewed , that absurd Paradoxes are miserably defended by Master Fisher. T3 . An Answer to the Title of Master Fisher's booke , masked vnder the Name of A. C. V3 . An Answer to the Preface thereof . V 4. A Table of the principall matters contained in the same , which are reduced vnto fiue heads , viz. 1 Vntruths . 2 Contradictions . 3 Idle obseruations , and exceptions . 4 Impertinences , or mal' à proposes . 5 Vaine repetitions . Y 3. A Reply to Master Fisher's Counter Relation , touching the occasion of the Conference , page 37. The Answer of Sir Humfrey Lynde , touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation , about the occasion and issue of the Conference , excepted against by the Iesuite , p. 39. A Reply to Master Fisher's Answer , or , the defence of the Protestant Relation , diuided into Paragraphs . Paragraph 1. touching the entry into the Conference , page 45. 2 Of the state of the Question , page 49. 3 The conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants , page 52. 4 Of the Inuisibility of the Romane Church , for more then 500 yeeres next after Christ , page 54. 5 Concerning the parts of the Question , page 59. 6 Of the pretended necessity of naming Protestants in all Ages , page 63. 7 Of the comparison betweene a proofe à Priori and à Posteriori , page 74. 8 Of the Demonstration of the Visibility of the Church , by the eternity and immutability of faith , page 88. 9 Touching a testimony alledged by M. Fisher out of D. Field page 113. 10 Of the Induction , & breaking vp of the Conference , p. 119. 11 Of the issue of the Conference , page 129. A Copie of M. Fisher's Letter to the Earle of Warwick . p. 139. An Answer vnto the same by D. Featly , page 142. A Copie of a Letter from the Earle of Warwick , to Sir Humfrey Lynde , page 146. Master Fisher's Reflection vpon the Conference , with the Answer of Doctor Featly , page 147. Wherein 1 A testimony out of Luther , alledged to proue the inuisibility of the Protestants Church , is answered , page 150. 2 Luther's testimony of Wesselus , page 152. 3 Of the Waldenses , page 154. 4 Of Hus , 157. 5 A testimony out of Conrad . Schlusenburg , is answer'd , p. 160. 6 A testimony out of Benedictus Morgenst , answered , p. 164. 7 A testimony out of Caluin , is answered , page 167. 8 Caluins testimony of the Waldenses , is produced , p. 168. 9 A testimony out of Bucer , is answered , page 169. 10 In what sense Luther may be termed the first Apostle of the Reformed Churches , is declared , page 170. 11 An allegation out of Beza , answered , page 171. 12 An Allegation out of Perkins , answered , page 173. 13 An Allegation out of Bishop Iewell , answered , page 174. 14 The Conclusion , page 178.

To the courteous Reader .

I Intreat thee , courteous Reader , to vnderstand , that the greater part of this book was printed in the time of the great Frost ; when , by reason that the Thames was shut vp , I could not conueniently procure the proofs to be brought vnto mee , before they were wrought off : whereupon it fell out , that very many grosse escapes passed the Presse , and ( which was the worst fault of all ) the third part of the book is left vnpaged . This defect I finde no other means to remedy for the present , than to referre thee to the letters of the Printers Alphabet , set vnder the Page . Thus therefore , I pray thee , correct the Errata following .

Faults escaped .

In the Conference , page 6. line 9. for demanded , r. and demanded . p. 7. l. 7. four , r. your . In the Additions , p. 27. l. 29. f. I should , r should I. p. 30. l. 29. f. author , r. aduersary . In the Attestation , p. 36. l. 8. f. prepetua , r. perpetua . In the Remonstrance , H 2 * for approbation , r. a good answer . H 4 * l. 4. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . b. l 23. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . K * l. 9 f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . line 14. f. of Church , r. of the Church . l. 15. f. thing , r. Chius . K 2 * In mar . f. quibus , r. quidam . f. falsa , r. falsum . l. penult. dele the. K 3 * b l. 7. f. Vovius , r. Voions . l. 9. Wolfius , r. Walfius . l. 10. f. Moustre a Vortley , r. Munster a Vortlegue . K * b l. penult . in marg. f. de praescrip. r. Tert. de praescrip. K 4 b l. 14. f. Partus , r. Paetus . Quest. 1. touching the visibility of the Church , L 3 * l. 5. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . L 3 l. 10. f. Becherites , r. Bezerites . l 12. f. Luiddamites , r. Quiddamites M * b l. 21. dele into . M 2 l. 28. f. eternally , r. externally . M 4 in marg. f. obsconditur & obsoluens , r. absconditur & absoluens . M 2 b l. 19. f sweet fish & rotten , r good & bad . N * a l. 17. f. Margaerites , r. pearles . N * b l 28. f. a firmer , r. the former . O * l. 17. f. Lyranensis , r. Lirmensis . O 2 b l. 5. f Barradus , r. Barradius . Quest. 2. touching the names of visible Protestants , P 3 a in marg. f. lenone , r. lenones . Q 1 b in marg. f. Caluini , r. calicis . Q 2 a l. 9. f sect . r. track . Q 3 l. 18. f. leaue , r. leuie . l. 23. f. Epistolae , r. Epistolis . Q 3 b adde in marg ad Occham & Platin ex Wolf . pröoem . Q 4 b adde in marg . The fixt assertien . R 1 l. 26. f. this , r. then . R 1 b l. 18 f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . R 1 in marg. f. excusseront , r. exusserunt . S 1 l. 28. f. forceth , r. forteth . S 2 b l. 23. dele of . T 1 b l. 22. f. voculae , r. voculas . T 2 b l. 9. f. quum . r. qum . T 3 in marg. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . T 3 b l. 3. f. Athanaeus , r. Athenaeus . T 4 l. 8. f. distinguish , r. to distinguish . V 1 l. 13. Corrige accentos ita , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . V 1 l. 20. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Pone in mar . Odys● . 3 In the reply , page 1. line 1. adde M. Fisher. p. 1. l 10. superpone D. Featly . p. 5. l. 25. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . l 26. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . l. 27. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . p. 7. l. 9. for conifictiou , r. confiction . p. 11. l. 2. f. you r. yours . p. 12. l. 2. f. m , r. on . p. 22. l. 13. f signal , r. signall . p. 32 l. 14 f. predicants , r. predicaments . p. 44. l. 6. f. be , r. but. p. 48. l. 21. f. of , r. Of. p. 51. l. 11. f. particula entirer , r. particular entire . p. 63. l. 8. f. Elohim , reade barah Elohim . p. 79. l. 10. f. metriculated , r matriculated . p. 83. l. 15. f. who keep , r. they who keep . p. 92. l. 8. f. namely fir , r. in Si● . In marg. adde Viues de causis corrupt . art. l. 3. l. 16. f. Ceres , r. Seres . l. 17. f. Riphean , r Rhiphean . l. 24. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . adde in marg. Arist. analit post . l. 1. c. 4. p. 101. l. 32. dele and. p. 103. l. 1. f. in error , r. obstinate in error . p. 104. l. 11. for 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . p. 108 l. 23. dele he can . p. 110 l. 11. f. Eleaetes , r. the Eleaetes . page 149. l. 4 f 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . p. 150 l 1. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . l. 2. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . l. 29. f. adeo , r. à Deo . et adde in mar . extat et al●● ad Argen ep. in tract . Histo de coen . dom. Casp. Peut . Ambergae . an. 1596. vbineque habentur haec ve ba. p. 152. l. 10. adde in marg. quia & lux mundi vulgò dictus , in script opuse . p. 154. l. 9. f. habent , r. habeant . p. l. 162. l. 12. f. exet . r. expetend . p. 163. l. 21. f. Bishop , r. Bishops . p. 172. l. 11. f. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , r. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

THE OCCASION and issue of the late Conference had betweene Dr. White , Deane of Carleil , and Dr. Featly , with Mr. Fisher and Mr. Sweet , Iesuites , was this as followeth .

EDward Bugges Esquire , ( about the age of 70 yeeres ) beeing lately sicke , was sollicited by some Papists then about him , to forsake the Protestant faith ; telling him , there was no hope of saluation without the Church ; there was no Catholique Church , but theirs ; and to beleeue the Catholique Church , was the Article of his Creed ; and by it there could no other Church bee meant , but the Church of Rome , because it could not bee prooued by all the Protestants in the Kingdome , that they had any Church before Luther .

This Gentleman beeing much troubled in his minde with these and the like suggestions , who all his life time had bin and professed himself a religious Protestant , becam now more sick in minde then body : and if by Gods mercifull goodnesse he had not recouered of this sicknesse , it is to be feared he had fallen both from his Mother Church , and his former faith , as some of the neerest of his owne bloud ( to his great griefe ) haue lately beene seduced by like inticements .

After his recouery , beeing still much troubled in minde with these former suggestions of the Popish Priests , he repaired to Sir Humfrey Lynde , Knight : who , by reason of his alliance and long acquaintance with him , gaue the best satisfaction he could to his said Cousin Master Bugges ; who seemed to take content in such his conferences , and to be well satisfied by him in all points .

But the Popish Priests and Iesuites not desisting to creepe-in further where they had once made a breach , perseuered still in questioning him , Where his Church was before Luther ? Whereupon hee repayred againe to Sir Humfrey Lynde , and required some further satisfaction of him concerning that demand . And thereupon Sir Humfrey Lynde told him , It was first in Christ and the Apostles ; consequently also conspicuous in the Primitiue Church for 600 yeeres after Christ : after which time some errors crept into the Church , as diseases into a mans body : so that the Church , which Luther and we acknowledge , was in generall the same Christian Church , as his body was the same substantiall body , beeing now well , and lately sick , though different in the qualities .

And for the better strengthening of his mind , the said Sir Humfrey Lynde inuited him to his house in the Countrey , thereby the better to preuent the daily sollicitation of those dangerous seducers . And after his returne to London , the said Sir Humfrey Lynde going to Master Bugges his house in Drury-lane to visit him , found Master Fisher the Iesuite there : where , after some debates about Religion , and the visibility of the Church , M. Fisher called for pen & inke , and set down this question in terminis , thereto adding vnder his hand , that he would answer vpon it negatiuely , as challenging and expecting opposers , deliuering also the paper into the hands of the said Sir Humfrey Lynde : who vpon view of it , answered that it was an historicall question , and not so proper for disputation . But Master Fisher vrging it , Sir Humfrey told him , if he would goe to Doctor Whites , ( where formerly he had beene ) the said Doctor would easily resolue those doubts . Which beeing refused by the Iesuite , the said Sir Humfrey did then returne him his paper againe , and so left him .

About two daies after , Master Bugges repaired to Sir Humfrey Lynde , and intreated him ( for his satisfaction ) to giue Master Fisher a meeting ; saying , that Master Fisher had againe told him , that he would maintaine what he had set down , and that our Diuines could not prooue our Church visible before Luthers time . Whereupon Sir Humfrey told him , that D. White and Doctor Featly were to dine with him vpon Fryday following : and if after dinner Master Fisher would come thither with foure or six at the most , they should bee admitted for his sake and his wises , who ( by reason of such sollicitation ) were troubled in their mindes , and satisfaction should be giuen as occasion required . And these were the true causes of the meeting , as is before declared . Vpon which Fryday , beeing the twenty seuenth of Iune , 1623. Master Fisher , Master Sweet , Iesuites , and some others with them , came to Sir Humfrey Lyndes house , into a little dining-roome ; where they found the aforesaid Master Bugges , his wife and children , and others of Sir Humfreys friends , that had then dined with him , together with some others also : whose comming in , as the said Sir Humfrey did not expect , so hee could not with ciuility put them forth his house , but did instantly cause his doores to bee locked vp , that no more might enter in : notwithstanding which his command , some others also came in scatteringly , after the conference began .

At the same time and place , Doctor White and Doctor Featly beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde , and staying a while after , had notice giuen them , that Master Fisher and Master Sweet , Iesuites , were in the next roome ready to conferre with them , touching a question set downe by Master Fisher , vnder his owne hand , in these words , viz.

Whether the Protestant Church was in all ages visible , and especially in the ages going before Luther . And whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors .

This question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named , and it beeing notified vnto them , that there were certaine persons , who had bin sollicited , and ( remaining doubtfull in Religion ) desired satisfaction especially in this point ; the said Doctors were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites , touching this point ; the rather , because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers , and disperse them in secret : in which they vaunt , that no Protestant Minister dareth encounter them in this point .

A Relation of what passed in a Conference touching the visibility of the Church , Iune xxvii . 1623.

AT the beginning of this meeting , when the disputants were set , D. Featly drew out the paper , in which the question aboue rehearsed was written , with these words in the margent , viz. I will answer that it was not ; demanded of M. Fisher , whether this were his own hand ? Which after he had acknowledged , D. Featly began as followeth .

D. Featly .

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . To this vniuersall demand , requiring rather an historicall large volume , then a Syllogisticall briefe dispute , we answer , that

1. Although diuine infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane history , but vpon diuine reuelation , as is confessed by your owne Schoolmen , and expresly by Cardinall Bellarmine : Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam , cui subesse potest falsum : Humane histories and records beget onely an humane faith , or rather credulity subiect to error , not a diuine and infallible beliefe , which must bee built vpon surer ground .

2. Although this question be grounded vpon vncertaine and false supposals : for , a Church may haue bin visible , yet not the names of all visible professors thereof now to be shewed and prooued out of good Authors : there might bee millions of professors , yet no particular and authenticall record of them by name : Records there might bee many in antient time , yet not now extant , at least for vs to come by ;

Yet wee will not refuse to deale with you in our owne question , if you in like manner will vndertake the like task in your own defence , and maintaine the affirmatiue in the like question , which we now propound vnto you heere in writing .

Whether the Romish Church ( that is a Church holding the particular entire doctrine of the now Romanists , as it is comprised in the Councell of Trent ) was in all ages visible , especially in the first 600 yeeres . And whether the names of such visible or legible Romanists in all ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors .

Heere D. Featly reading this question , through a mistake , in stead of out of good Authors , read , out of Gods Word . Whereunto M. Fisher replied , No : I will prooue it out of good Authors .

Then said one that sate at the Table * * M. Alesbury . , By no meanes can M. Fisher endure to demonstrate his Church out of Gods Word .

D. Featly .

God is a good Author , M. Fisher : but it is true , I did mistake . What say you to the condition ? Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages , out of good Authors ?

M. Fisher.

I will , so you prooue the Visibility of your Church .

Heere an order was set downe , that D. Featly should for an houre and a halfe oppose M. Fisher in this question ; and afterwards M. Fisher for the last houre and halfe should oppose D. White in the other question , for the Visibility of the Romane Church .

M. Sweet .

Before you proceed to dispute , I desire , these conditions may bee assented vnto on both sides : 1. That all bitter speeches be forborne . 2. That none speake but disputants .

Which conditions were well approoued by the whole company .

D. Featly .

I desire a third to bee added thereunto , viz. that both the Opponent and Respondent be tyed to Logick Forme .

M. Fisher.

I hold not that condition fit , because the company vnderstands not Logick Forme .

D. Featly .

There are of the company that vnderstand Logick as well as you or I , and the rest are men of vnderstanding and reason : therefore I am resolued to keepe Logick Forme , and expect from you direct answers .

M. Fisher.

You your selfe confesse , that this question is not to be handled syllogistically .

D. Featly .

I said indeed , that it required rather a large historicall volume , then a briefe syllogisticall Dispute : the more you too blame , to propound such a question ; and my taske the harder : yet , beeing propounded as a question , I will keep my self to Logicke Forme . But before I propound my argument , I craue leaue , in fewe words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse , wherewith you draw and delude many of the ignorant and vnlearned . You beare them in hand , that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant , before Luther ; and that all the world before his time , beleeued as you doe : That your Church hath not bin onely visible in all Ages , and all times , but eminently conspicuous and illustrious : which is such a notorious vntruth , that I heer offer before all this company , to yeeld you the better , and acknowledge my self ouercome , if you can produce out of good Authours , I will not say , any Empire or Kingdome , but any City , Parish or Hamlet , within 500. yeeres next after Christ , in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to bee named , maintaining and defending either your Trent Creed in generall , or these poynts of Popery in speciall ; to wit ,

1. That there is a treasury of Saints merits , and superaboundant satisfactions at the Popes disposing .

2. That the Laitie are not commanded by Christs institutions , to receiue the Sacrament of the Lords Supper in both kindes .

3. That the publicke seruice of God in the Church , ought , or may bee celebrated in an vnknowne Tongue .

4. That priuate Masses , wherein the Priest sayth , Edite et bibite ex hoc omnes , Eate and drinke yee all of this , and yet eateth and drinketh himselfe onely , are according to Christs institution .

5. That the Popes pardons are requisite or vsefull , to release soules out of Purgatory .

6. That the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister .

M. Sweet .

These are scholasticall points , not fundamentall .

D. White .

Those things which are defined in your Councell of Trent , are to you matters fundamentall .

Whatsoeuer article denied makes a man an hereticke , is fundamentall .

But the deniall of any of these , makes a man an hereticke :

Therefore to you , euery one of these articles is fundamentall .

To which argument nothing being answered , D. Featly proceeded .

7. That extreme vnction is a Sacrament , properly so called .

8. That wee may worship God by an Image .

9. That the sacred Hoast ought to bee eleuated , or carried in solemne procession .

10. That Infidels and impious persons , yea Rats and Mice , may eate the body of Christ .

11. That all ecclesiasticall power dependeth of the Pope .

12. That hee cannot erre in matter of faith .

13. That hee hath power to canonize Saints .

14. To institute religious orders .

15. To depose Kings , &c. which latter points and the like I leaue to D. White , to mayntaine against you , when ( according to your promise ) you doe vndertake to name visible and legible Romanists in all ages .

M. Fisher.

After you haue proued your Church visible in all ages , and named the professours thereof , I will satisfy you in your particulars .

D. Featly .

In the meane-while , name but one Father , but one Writer of note who held the particulars aboue-named , for 500. yeeres after Christ . To which instant demand of D. Featly , nothing was answered .

Sr. Humfrey Lynde . M. Sweet ,

proue mee but this one point out of Saint Augustine , namely , Transubstantiation , or satisfy such arguments as I shall bring you out of Saint Augustine to the contrary , and I will promise you to goe to Masse .

To which M. Sweet made no other answer then this : That is not now to the question .

M. Fisher.

I expect your argument , Doctor Featly .

D. Featly .

There are two meanes only , to proue any thing by necessary inference ; to wit , a Syllogisme and an Induction : other formes of argument haue no force , but as they are reducible to these . I proue the visibility of our Church by both ; and first , by a Syllogisme .

That Church , whose faith is eternall and perpetuall , was euer visible in the professours thereof .

But , the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall :

Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church was euer visible in the Professours thereof .

M. Fisher.

You conclude not the question .

D. Featly .

There are two Quaeres in your question : first , Whether the Protestant Church was in all ages visible ; and secondly , Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all ages , can bee shewed . I haue concluded in my Syllogisme , the first Quaere .

M. Fisher.

There are not two Quaeres , or parts in the question : it is but one question .

D. White .

Where there are two propositions with two distinct Vtrums , there are two questions : But heer are two propositions with two distinct vtrums ; to wit , whether the Protestant Church , &c. and whether the names , &c.

Therefore there are two Quaeres , or parts in the question .

M. Fisher.

Conclude any thing Syllogistically , D. Featly .

D. Featly .

You your self make the first part a question by it selfe : for , at the margent ouer against the first part , Whether the Protestant Church was euer visible ? you write , I will answer , It was not : which words can haue no Construction , if you referre them to both parts , or at all to the latter part ; to wit , Whether the names can be a shewed ?

M. Fisher.

Let vs heare a Syllogisme .

D. Featly .

In this copulatiue proposition which you offer for a question , and require mee to proue , either you deny both parts , or one onely ; if both , I am to proue both , one after the other ; if one onely , then you grant the other . A copulatiue is not true , vnlesse both parts bee true . Doe you deny both , or one onely ?

M. Fisher.

I say , they are but one ; for , the later part is to expound the former : for , I meane by visible , so visible , that the names of such visible Protestants may bee shewed .

D. Featly .

This is to confound two distinct questions in one : For , a Church may haue bin visible , and yet the names of such visible Professours not now to bee shewed .

M. Fisher.

They are my words , and I am best able to expound my owne meaning .

D. Featly .

An exposition , which the construction of the words will not beare , is not to be receiued . But the construction of the words will not beare this your exposition : Therfore it is not to be receiued . And is a coniunction copulatiue , & must adde some-what to that which goes before . It is all one , as if you should expound the words of the Apostle , Prouide honest things before God and men ; before God , that is , before men .

M. Sweet .

What need you stand so much vpon this : if there were visible men , certainly they may bee named . Name your visible Protestants , and it sufficeth . b b A Romanist standing by named M. Bolton . Name visible Protestants in all ages :

D. Featly .

It seemes you are * * Two sects of School-men and Logicians so called . Nominalls , rather then * * Two sects of School-men and Logicians so called . Realls , you stand so much vpon naming . Will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all ages ? The same Romanist standing by .

If neither you nor wee can name visible professours of our Religions in all ages , for ought I knowe , the best way for vs is to bee all naturall men .

D. Featly .

This is the right reason of a Naturall .

M. Sweet .

If there were visible Protestants in all ages , certainly they may bee named .

D. Featly .

That is a Non sequitur , for the reasons beforenamed by mee . What say you to a people of Africa , who ( if we may beleeue Plinie ) haue no names at all ?

M. Bolton .

Yet they haue descriptions , and may bee knowne by some Periphrasis .

D. Featly .

What say you then to the Heretikes called Acephali , who are so called , because their Head and Authour cannot bee named , nor particularly described ? Yet the Authour was a visible man . Are all visible mens names vpon Record ? Are all the Records that were in former times , now to bee produced ?

Heer diuers of Master Fishers company , called , Names , names , names .

D. Featly .

What ? Will nothing content you but a Buttery-booke ? You shall haue a Buttery-booke of names , if you will stay a while .

Heere , diuers of the Auditors wished D. Featly not to proceed any further in the disputation , vnlesse Master Fisher would suffer him , according to the lawes of all disputation , first , to conclude the first part of his copulatiue Que●stion ; and then , the second . Yet Doctor Featly ' desirous to bring the disputation to some better issue before he left it , was content to yeeld to M. Fishers vnreasonable demand , and conclude both parts of the copulatiue Question in one Syllogisme .

D. Featly .

That Church , whose faith is eternall and perpetuall , is so visible , that the Names of some Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages .

But , the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall :

Therefore the Protestants Church is so visible , that the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages .

M. Fisher.

Faith eternall ? Who euer heard of faith eternall ? Saint Paul saith , that faith ceaseth .

D. Featly .

You haue a purpose , M. Fisher , to cauill : you knowe my meaning well enough by the tearm perpetuall ; to wit , that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it , till this present , and shall continue vntill his second Coming .

The Church which houldeth this faith , you beleeue , shall bee so visible , that the Names of the Professors thereof may bee shewed in all ages .

But , the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith :

Therefore it hath been so visible , that the Names of the Professers thereof may be shewed in all Ages .

M. Fisher.

Your Argument is a fallacy , called Petitio principij .

D. Featly .

A demonstration à causâ or à priori , is not petitio principii .

But , such is my Argument :

Therefore my Argument is not petitio principii .

Is it not a sounder Argument , to prooue the Visibility of the Professers from the truth of their faith , than ( as you doo ) the truth of your faith from the Visibility of Professers ? Visible Professers argue not a right faith . Hereticks , Mahumetans , and Gentiles , haue visible professers of their impieties ; yet wil it not hence follow , that they haue a right beleef . On the contrary , wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture , that the Church which maintains the true faith , shall haue alwaies Professers more or less visible .

M. Sweet .

You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori ; for , that is to the question ; and not à priori .

D. Featly .

Shall you prescribe mee my weapons ? Is not an Argument à priori , better than an Argument à posteriori ? This is , as if in battell you should enioyne your enemy to stab you with a knife , and not with a sword or dagger . I will vse what weapons I list : take you what buckler you can .

M. Fisher.

A Proof à posteriori is more demonstratiue than à priori .

M. Alesbury .

Heer M. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning , in preferring a demonstration à posteriori , before that which proceeds à priori . Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause , more excellent , than of the cause by the effect ?

From this place , and so forward , it was agreed by the Disputants , that the Arguments and Answers should be taken by one common Writer ; and that the Opponent , Dr. Featly , should set his hand to each seuerall Syllogism ; and the Respondent , Mr. Fisher , to his seuerall Answers .

Dr. Featly .

That Church , which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be , and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee , is so visible , that the Names of the Professours thereof may be produced and shewed .

But , the Protestant Church is so visible , as the Catholique Church ought to be , and as the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee :

Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible , that their Names may be produced .

M. Fisher.

I deny the Minor .

D. Featly .

That Church , Minor probatur whose faith is eternal and perpetuall , and vnchanged , is so visible , as the Catholick Church ought to be , and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be .

But , the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall , perpetuall , and vnchanged :

Therefore the Protestant Church is so visible , as the Catholique Church ought to be , and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee .

M. Fisher.

I distinguish the Maior . That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged , so as the Names can bee shewed , is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be , and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be , I grant it .

That Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged , yet so , as the Names cannot be shewed in all Ages , is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee , and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be , I deny it . To the Minor I apply the like distinction , and consequently to the Conclusion in the same manner .

D. Featly .

What ? Answer you to the Conclusion also ? This is a Strain of new Logick .

M. Fisher.

Tolle distinctionem .

D. Featly .

A strange distinction of the etemity of faith by Professers to be named , All this was spoken , but not committed to writing . and not to bee named . What are Professers nominable or innominable , to the eternity of faith ?

M. Fisher.

Conclude that which I deny , that the Protestant Church is so eternall , as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may be shewed .

D. Featly .

That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith , once giuen to the Saints , without which no man can be saued , is so perpetuall & visible , as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages .

But , Tollitur distinctio . the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue and Catholique faith , once giuen to the Saints , without which none can be saued :

Therefore the faith of the Protestant Church is so perpetuall and visible , as the Names of some of that Church may be shewed in all Ages .

M. Fisher.

I answer the Minor . If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe , I absolutely deny it : but if this Proposition bee considered ( as it must bee ) as related to the first question , and the end thereof , I further adde , that it is not pertinent to that end for which the whole Dispute was intended , to weet , to shew to those , who are not able by their owne ability to finde out , the infallible faith necessary to saluation , without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ : and consequently , the Visibility of the Church is first to be shewed , before the truth of doctrine in particular shall be shewed .

D. Featly .

First , These words were also spoken but not set down by the Writer . what speak you of those who are not able by their owne abilities to finde out faith ? Is any man able by his owne ability , without the help of diuine grace ?

Secondly , what helpeth the Visibility , to confirm the truth of the Church ? Visibility indeed prooues a Church , but not the true Church .

Heer M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field of the Church , supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer . Whereunto D. Featly promised , Answer should be made when it came to their turn to answer : now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher.

D. Featly .

The Summe of your former Answer , was , that the Minor of my former Syllogisme was both false and impertinent . It is neither false nor impertinent . Therefore your Answer is false and impertinent . And first , my Minor is not false .

M. Fisher.

I answer to the Antecedent , that it is both false and impertinent : but I adde , that for the present it must first be prooued to be pertinent , or else it diuerteth vs from the chief end of our Dispute , which was ( as I said before ) , that infallible truth may bee learned of the true visible Church ; and not the true visible Church , by first finding euery particular infallible truth ; and by that to conclude which is the true visible Church .

D. Featly .

I proue , that the Minor is pertinent .

That Minor Proposition , which , together with the Maior , doth necessarily and directly inferre the Conclusion of the Minor last denied , is pertinent to the probation of that Minor denied .

But the Minor Proposition of the third Syllogisme , doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor last denied :

Therefore the Minor of that Syllogism is pertinent .

Note , that M. Fishers Answers to euery one of these Syllogismes , were penned by him verbatim with the aduice of M. Sweet , and one other , suggesting priuately , and amending what they thought fit . Which breeding much delay , irkesom to the hearers , and the Opponent then saying , You are very long , Register of the Court of Wards . M. Fisher : M. Chamberlane , standing by , said , Let him alone : for , he and his learned Councell are not yet agreed .

M Fisher.

I distinguish the Maior . That Minor proposition , which together with the Maior doth necessarily and directly inferre the conclusion of the Minor , in such manner as it may serue for the purpose to which the whole Dispute is ordained , I grant it to be pertinent . But if it doe inferre the conclusion , yet not in such manner as it may serue for that purpose for which the whole Dispute was ordained ▪ I deny the Maior .

Heere the Disputants iarred , and so the Writer ceased : yet that which followeth , was then deliuered by them .

D. Featly .

That Minor which together with the Maior inferres the proposition last denied , the whole processe hauing beene per direct a media , is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained .

But this Minor , together with the Maior , directly and necessarily inferres the proposition last denied , the whole processe hauing beene per directa media .

Therefore it is pertinent to that purpose to which the Dispute is ordained .

M. Fisher.

Your Media in your Syllogismes were directa , but they tended not ad directum finem .

D. Featly .

This is a Bull. M. Fisher. Media directa ? yet not addirectum finem ? that is , direct , and not direct ? for Media are said to be directa , only ratione finis , in regard of the end .

M. Sweet .

Is there not a fault in arguing , called transitio à genere in genus , When a man by arguing quite leaues the maine question and subiect ?

D. Featly .

I acknowledge , that transitio à genere in genus , is a fault in disputing : but I neuer heard , that the inference of the effect by the cause , was transitio a genere in genus : such was my argument . For , faith in a right beleeuer produceth profession and confession thereof , which makes a visible member ; and the like profession of many members , a visible Church . Where the cause is perpetuall , the effect must needs bee perpetuall . Therefore where the faith is perpetuall , the profession thereof must needs be ; and consequently the Visibility of the professors thereof . Is this transitio à genere in genus ?

D. Good .

M. Sweet , you once learned better Logick in Cambridge , then you shew now .

Heere againe those of M. Fishers side calling for names , Where are your names ? D. White sayd ,

D. White .

This is nothing but an apparant tergiuersation : you will not answer any argument directly , nor suffer vs to proceed in our argument , and therefore I require you M. Fisher , according to the order mentioned in the beginning , for each party to haue an houre and a half , that you now oppose , and suffer me to answer . Prooue by Christ and his Apostles , or by any of the Fathers , for the first 600 yeeres , these present Tenets of the Romane Church , viz.

1. That all power of order and Iurisdiction in respect of the Churches , is to be deriued from the Church of Rome .

2. That no Scripture , sense or translation thereof is authenticall , vnlesse the same were receiued from the Church of Rome .

3. That the Romane Church onely was and is the authenticall Custos of vnwritten traditions .

4. That all generall Councels were called by the sole authority of the Pope , and that hee might ratify and disannuall whatsoeuer pleased him in them .

5. That the Pope onely had power to canonize Saints .

6. That the Pope had or hath power to depose Princes .

Prooue all or any of these , and we will neither carp nor cauill about names , but answer directly , without all delayes , euasions or tergiuersations .

M. Fisher.

When you , Doctor White , or Doctor Featly , haue prooued your Church to bee visible in all Ages , and named visible Protestants , then I promise you to prooue the Visibility of the Catholique Romane Church : but that is not done by you yet .

D. Featly .

It had bin done , but for your delayes and tergiuersations . Answer briefly and directly to my former argument , and I will descend to my Induction , and produce the names of such eminent persons as in all Ages haue maintained the substantiall points of faith , in which wee differ from your Romane Church .

That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith , once giuen to the Saints , without which none can bee saued , is so visible , that the names of the professors thereof in all Ages may bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors .

But the Protestant Church is that Church , whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith , once giuen to the Saints , without which none can be saued :

Therfore the Protestants Church is so visible , that the names of the professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages , &c.

The Maior is , ex concessis . What say you to the Minor ?

M. Fisher.

I distinguish the Minor .

D. Featly .

Vpon what tearme doe you distinguish ?

M. Fisher.

I distinguish of the proposition , not of any tearme .

D. Featly .

Heere is againe another straine of new Logick , to distinguish of a proposition , and apply the distinction to no tearme : howsoeuer , I am glad to heare you distinguish , and not simply to deny , that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith . Mark , I beseech you , you that are present , that M. Fisher demurres vpon the proposition ; his conscience will not suffer him simply to deny , that the Protestant faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith : we simply and slatly , and in down-right tearmes deny , that your present Tridentine faith is the Catholique Primitiue faith .

M. Fisher.

I answered you before , that your Minor is false and impertinent .

D. Featly .

I have prooued already , that it is pertinent : what say you to the truth of it ?

M. Fisher.

This is to diuert from the question , The question is not now , Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholique Primitiue faith : but the question now is of the effect , to wit , the Visibility of your Church , which you ought to prooue out of good Authors .

D. Featly .

May not a man prooue the effect by the cause ? Is there no other meanes to proue the effect , but by naming men , and producing Authors for it ?

M. Sweet .

An effect is posterius : the question is about an effect : therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori .

D. Featly .

What a reason is this ? May not an effect be proued by his cause ? Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect ? or à posteriori , because an effect is posterius ?

M. Sweet .

Leaue these Logick Disputes . Bring the names of your Protestants : that is it we expect .

D. Featly .

If I should relinquish my former argument , to which yet you haue giuen no manner of answer , you , M. Fisher , would report that I was non-plussed , as you slandered D. White in a former conference , who ( I tell you , M. Fisher ) is able to teach vs both . Whereto M. Fisher replied nothing .

To preuent all such mis-reports to the wrong of either , it was mooued by the hearers , that it should be written downe by the common Writer of the Conference , that both the Disputants beeing willing to proceed , D. Featly was desired by the company ( because it was late ) to produce the names of such Protestants as were extant before Luther in all Ages . This beeing written and subscribed by them both , D. Featly proceeded to his Induction .

D. Featly .

An induction is a forme of argument ; in which wee proceed from enumeration of particulars , to conclude a generall , after this manner :

It is so in this and this ; et sic de eaeteris , and so in the rest :

Therefore it is so in all .

According to this forme of arguing , thus I dispute :

The Protestant Church was so visible , that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof , may bee produced in the first hundred yeeres , and second , and third , and fourth ; et sic de caeteris , and so in the rest :

Therefore it was so in all Ages .

First , I name those of the first Age , and I begin with Him , who is the beginning of all , our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ , blessed for euer : at whose name all knees must bow both in heauen & earth , and vnder the earth ( at which words all the company on both sides expressed an holy reuerence ) . After Christ , I name the twelue Apostles , and Saint Paul : and because there were few Writers in the first Age ( at least , whose vndoubted works haue comne to our hands ) I name onely Ignatius after the twelue Apostles , and Saint Paul ; yet not denying , but that many others may be named .

M. Fisher.

These are enow for the first Age ; Christ , the twelue Apostles , Saint Paul and Ignatitius .

Heere , at the name of Ignatius , some of M. Fishers side seemed very glad and confident , saying , We are sure enough , Saint Ignatius is on our side .

D. Featly .

I meane not the new Ignatius Loyola , but Ignatius the Martyr : betweene whom there is more difference in quality , then distance in time .

M. Fisher.

Name of all the Ages , or else you do nothing .

D. Featly .

I cannot name all at once : will you haue mee name men of so many Ages with one breath ? Will you haue mee eat my whole dinner at a bit ? Can I name twelue seuerally , but I must name first one , then two , then three , and so forward ? I name ( as I said before ) in the first Age , for our Religion , our blessed Lord and Sauiour , the Founder of all Religion , the twelue Apostles , and after them Saint Paul , and Ignatius the Martyr . For the second Age , I name Iustin Martyr , Saint Cyprian was heere mentioned , but intended for the first of the third Age. Clemens Alexandrinus , and Saint Irenaeus , and I beginne first with Christ and his Apostles .

M. Fisher.

You shall not beginne with Christ and his Apostles .

D. Featly .

You are not to make my Induction : I will begin with Christ and his Apostles , where I should begin , but in the first Age , and with the first of it : shall I make a Catalogue of the Christian Church , according to the seuerall Ages , and leaue out Christ and his Apostles in the first Age ? Answer first to them , and I will proceed to others .

M. Fisher.

Name the rest in all Ages , and then I will answer you .

D. Featly .

First , answer to the first Age , and then I will proceed to the second . If you grant mee the first Age , then I will proceed presently to the second ; otherwise I must stay in the first .

M. Fisher.

Vnlesse you giue mee a Catalogue of names throughout all Ages , I will not answer .

D. Featly .

Will you not answer Christ and his Apostles in the first place ?

M. Fisher.

I will not , before you haue named the rest .

D. Featly .

Will you not bee tryed by Christ and his Apostles ?

That which Christ and his Apostles taught in the first Age , was taught by succeeding Christians in all Ages ▪ this is confessed on both sides .

But the doctrine of the Protestants was taught by Christ and his Apostles in the first Age ▪

Therefore the doctrine of the Protestants was taught in all Ages .

Answer this Syllogisme , if you will not answer my former induction .

M. Fisher.

I will not answer you any thing , till you haue made your Catalogue .

D. Featly .

M. Fisher , I charge you , as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of Iudgement , answer now , vpon your conscience , before all this Company , whether you beleeue , that Christ and his Apostles taught our faith or yours : this is the maine point of all : answer directly to my Induction .

Notwithstanding this deepe charge , M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles : whereupon diuers , expressing their distaste at such refusall , desired D. Featly to surcease ; telling him , that hee ought not to talk any longer with such a one , who refused to answer Christ and his Apostles . And so the conference brake vp , hauing lasted about foure houres .

Additions to the former Conference .

IF any man maruell , that in so many houres spent in the Conference , so few arguments were discust , or rather , not any one throughly vntwisted to the end , as the Opponent desired , the cause hereof was , the Iesuites diffusiue & discursiue answers , but especially his dilatory cautions and tergiuersations , who would not suffer the Opponent to proceed in his argument , without dictating it first to the common Writer of the conference ; and then , reading it , and setting his hand thereto : which after hee had done , the principall Respondent , M. Fisher , meditates by himself an Answer ; which hee first writeth in a priuate paper , then sheweth it to his Assistant , M. Sweet , and two other that stood by : according to whose aduice he addeth , blotteth out , and altereth what they thought fit . After this , he dictateth it out of his priuate paper to the common Writer of the conference ; then resumes this schedule from him , and , hauing compar'd it with his priuate paper , subscribes it as a Record , and then reads it openly . This long spinning , wreathing and winding , he vsed to euery Syllogisme : which was so tedious and irksome to the Auditory , that a Protestant Diuine standing by , vpbraided him in this manner : M. Fisher , what haue wee deserued of you , that you should thus torment vs , to make vs stay half an houre for an Answer to euery Syllogisme and Prosyllogisme ?

The Lord of Warwick also more than once called vpon M. Fisher to come to the point , to answer briefly and directly , without discourses or vn●●cessary distinctions . A short lesson may be long in playing ; where ther are more rests than notes , as it was heer . Yet all that passed in the conference , is not particularly & punctually set down . Some things were omitted : which omissions because the Author complaineth of , wee thought fit heer to supply .

1. About the entry into the conference , M. Fisher offred a paper to bee read : part whereof was read by D. Featly ; the rest he refused to read , saying , M. Fisher , lis contestata est , wee are already agreed vpon the Question : we haue receiued the Tenet vnder your owne hand , and are prepared to oppose it : it is no time now to tie your Opponent to new conditions .

2. About the propounding the first Argument , when M. Fisher carped at the word eternall ; D. White , to try & winde M. Fisher , did cast a Syllogisme 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to prooue the eternity of faith from the eternity of the cause , the diuine predestination . Whereunto when M. Fisher , or some standing by , answered , that in that sense all other things might be said to be eternall ; another Protestant standing by added , that faith might bee said to be eternall , in that sense in which eternall is taken , for e●iternall : so the soules of men are said to be eternal , because though they had a beginning , yet they shall haue no end . Neither so , said M. Fisher , may faith be said eternall , because the Apostle saith , Faith ceaseth . These Answers and Replies vpon the By , wee omitted , because D. Featly sufficiently expressed his minde by the Synonymie , which he added to eternall , to wit , perpetuall : and besides , the disputation was not of the habit or infused grace of faith , which , Saint Paul saith , ceaseth , but of the obiect or doctrine of faith , which is eternall in that sense , in which S. Iohn calleth the Gospell eternall , Reu. 14. 6. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . I saw an Angell fleeing in the midst of heauen , hauing the eternall Gospell .

3. About the middle of the conference , D. Featly took occasion , by the Iesuites often inculcating and ingeminating the same Answer , to tax their battologie or vain repetitions in their Iesus Psalter , and other Books of Praiers ; saying , M. Fisher , I think , you partly beleeue , that the often repeating the same Answer , addeth truth and strength to your Answer ; as you are perswaded , that the saying-ouer the same Praiers , and repeating the name Iesu so many times by tale , addeth merit to the Praiers .

M. Sweet .

What fault can you finde with the often repeating the name Iesu ? Doth not the holy Ghost in the Scripture diuers times reiterate the Attribute Holy , saying , Sanctus , sanctus , sanctus ?

D. Featly .

Is there no difference between the repeating the word Holy or Sanctus three times , and repeating the name Iesus thirty times at the least ? nay , saith a Protestant standing by , a hundred and thirty times ?

M. Fisher.

In one of Dauid's Psalms , these words , for his mercy endureth for euer , are repeated in euery verse .

D. Featly .

It is true : these words , for his mercie endureth for euer , are elegantly and sweetly repeated , as the burden of that heauenly Song : but note withall , M. Fisher , that something commeth betwixt , and that this Epiphonema or clause is applied in euery verse to a seuerall blessing of God there remembred : what is this to the saying continuately , Iesu , Iesu , Iesu , forty times in a breath . If this be not the vain repetition or babbling forbidden in praier by our Sauiour , Mat. 6. 7. I know not what it is .

M. Sweet .

It matters not . You are no lawfull Interpreter of Scripture .

To which words as D. Featly was making a reply , hee was recalled by the company , to prosecute his main Argument .

Heer you may obserue by the way , that M. Fisher saw well enough , that M. Sweets instance of the thrice repeating the name Sanctus , was very friuolous , and impertinently brought to maintain their vain repeating the name Iesu , so many score of times together in their Psalter : and therfore hee let M. Sweet shift for himself , and make good his instance , if he were able : for , M. Fisher could not be ignorant , that the Fathers generally obserue , against the Arrians , the mystery of the Trinity of Persons to be implied in the thrice repeating the word Sanctus . Isa. 6. If the Papists repeat the name Iesu to the like purpose ( as they must doo , Apoc. 4. if they take that for their pattern ) , will it not follow , that forty times repeating the name Iesus , implies , that there are forty Persons in Iesu ? So well did M. Sweet keep his owne pretended law , that none should speak any thing but to the purpose : but , because hee challenged to haue made such a law himself , peraduenture he thought , he might dispense with it .

4. In the prosecution of the mayne Argument , when Master Fisher , being required to giue a direct and punctuall answer to some proposition in the Syllogisme , digressed from the point , and discoursed , how an ignorant and vnlearned man might first come to the knowledge of the true Church , and was checked by Doctor Featly , saying , This is not now to the purpose : M. Chamberlane sitting by , added , The lesse to the purpose , the better . Would you haue Master Fisher speake to the purpose ?

5. In making way to the Induction , when D. Featly was recalled , by a new Answer of Master Fishers , to some former Argument which Doctor Featly went about to refell , the Earle of Warwick aduised him , notwithstanding this interruption , to proceed to his induction ; saying , Master Fisher , like a woman , will haue the last word , but it makes no matter ; let him answer what hee will ; wee presume , his answers will bee but like his former .

6. In propounding an Argument by an induction , after this manner : For the first age , I alledge for Teachers of the Protestants Doctrine , Christ , his twelue Apostles , Saint Paul , and Ignatius ; for the secondage , Iustine Martyr , &c.

M. Fisher ,

after hee had repeated the instance in the first age in these words : In the first age you alledge Christ , his twelue Apostles , Saint Paul , and Ignatius , hee added Transeat : name in the succeeding ages .

D. Featly .

You grant then , Christ and his Apostles were Protestants .

M. Fisher.

Will you slander me to my face ? What will you do● behinde my back ?

D. Featly .

I slander you not . The word transeat , implies , in my vnderstanding , a concession ; if not , then deny it , and I will presently proue it .

But as for this word transeat , though that wee made a transeat of it , and let it passe in our relation , yet his owne side haue taken speciall notice of it : and indeed Master Fisher Lupum auribus tenet . If by transeat , he meant a concession or grant of the proposition , wee desire no more of him : if wee haue Christ and his Apostles on our side , what neede wee more ? To auoyde this inconue●ience , if hee interpret this transeat , Let it passe , as not worthy of his Answere or notice ; thus to slighten an Argument drawne from His authority ( whose words shall not passe , though heauen and earth passe ) it cannot receiue a good construction . But wee spare Master Fisher , quia vapulat intus in poscenio , because hee hath bin schooled at home . Forsooth this Non bene crede mihi faciunt duo : Sufficit vnus .

Surely many , that hold Master Fisher to bee a great Gamaliel in the Romish Synagogue , very much maruell , that being so often prest and vrged , yea , and adiured also , hee should yet still decline to make any Answer at all to the Opponents instance in Christ and his Apostles . But , the truth is , he and his companions are of the b●ood of those , whom Tertullian fitly tearmeth Lucifugas Scripturarum , ●●unners of the light . Like Bats , they keep a fluttering in the twi-light of supposed humane authorities , and plausible glosses of reason , but the broad day-light of Scripture they cannot endure . Though in his Question he laid claime to all ages , in which any Scholler , according to common sense and naturall apprehension , would vnderstand , that hee meant Methodically to begin at the first age , and thence prepetua serie to descend to the later , as do the framers of their owne late extant Catalogues of Romane professors , beginning with Christ Iesus , Saint Peter , Saint Paul , Corinthians , Ephesians , Thessalonians , &c. ordine naturae et temporum , yet hee preposterously would haue the Opponents begin first with the last age , and so ascend vpwards . Omnia naturae contraria legibus ibunt ; that so hee might the better lurke in the darke and muddy age next before Luther . Which the Opponent iustly suspecting , resolued to hold to the high way and fayre tracke of naturall method , intending thereby to draw him into the cleare streame of Antiquity , beginning at the fountaine in the first age . But this , Master Fisher would by no meanes indure , hoping , that hee might lye hid ( tanquam Sepia in atramento suo , like the Scuttle-fish in her owne inke ) in those darke ages next or neere before Luther : whereas being beaten vp into the cleerer streame of the first ages , hee would easily bee discerned , and soone caught .

7. At the breaking vp of the Conference , when Master Fisher desired to haue in his owne custody the common Schedule ( in which the principall Arguments and Answers of the Disputants were written by the common Notarie , chosen by both parties , and subscribed by their owne hands ) Doctor Featly withstood this motion , saying , Master Fisher , you are not a fit man to bee trusted with this Authenticall writing : for , in a former conference betweene me and Master Musket ( whose Assistant you then were ) you tooke vpon you , ( without any commission from me , or consent ) the office of a Notarie , to take my Answeres : and being vpon occasion pressed by the company to read what you had written , after some tergiuersations you read it , and thereupon were checked by the whole company , for setting that downe for my Answeres , which was neuer spoken by mee , nor any thing like vnto it : and that I charge you truly with this vndue dealing , I appeale to some heer present , viz. Doctor Goad and Master Wats ▪ who were present at that conference . Heer Doctor Goad and Master Wats affirmed to Master Fishers face , that vpon their knowledge , Master Fisher was conuicted of vntrue setting downe Doctor Featlyes Answers in that conference ; and that vpon such conuiction , Master Fisher was forced to correct what hee had formerly set downe .

Heerto Master Fisher , much moued at such imputation , answered :

M. Fisher.

I call God to witnesse , that if I did set downe any thing otherwise then the truth wa● , I did it not wittingly nor willingly .

Whereunto Doctor Goad replied ,

D. Goad . Whether you did it wittingly or willingly , bee it betweene God and your conscience : sure wee are , that what you wrote down vntruly , was aduantageous to your owne side ; and therefore wee had iust cause to suspect , that you did it wittingly and willingly .

An Attestation concerning some particulars , set downe in a Relation entituled , The Fisher catched in his owne Net .

WHereas the Relation of that which passed in the Conference touching the Visibility of the Church , Iune 27. 1623. is in the whole course of it truely and indifferently deliuered , and rather moderately and fauourably carried , in regard of the Aduersary respondent , Master Fisher , whose part , in respect of his delayes and euasions , was not altogether so tolerably acted , as in the sayd briefe Relation it is represented : wee hold it needlesse to giue thereunto any other generall Attestation ; especially considering , that the principall Heads thereof are extant vnder the hands of both parties ; and the chief substance and current thereof , for ought wee finde , is not reiected by the Aduersarie . Yet because a Counter-relator , calling himselfe A. C. hath of late put forth in print an answer to the sayd Relation , and therin ( not content to slighten and doubt of some passages ) hath by expresse deniall excepted against diuers other particulars , so charging the Protestant Relator with crimen falsi : wee , who were present at the said Conference , and attentiue vnto it , could not in equity and conscience bee wanting to the support of truth , by our ioynt Testimony heere following .

1. The Counter-relator auoucheth , Pag. 15. that There , ( viz. in the beginning , ) and not in the end of the Disputation , Doctor Featly did say , I wish , I warne , I command , I coniure you , &c. Heerein wee finde a double falsification . The first , by deniall of that which , to our perfect remembrance , was by D. Featly spoken to Master Fisher in the end of the disputation ; when Master Fisher , hauing bin often vrged to answer the Instance in Christ and his Apostles in the first Age , yet peremptorily refused . Whereupon , Doctor Featly , with a lowd and earnest voice , said vnto him : I charge and adiure you , as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the day of Iudgement , answer now vpon your conscience , Whether you beleeue that Christ & his Apostles taught our faith or yours ? The second falshood is , by adding and peruerting that which was said in the beginning of the disputation by D. Featly , without any mention of the day of Iudgement , or coniuring , much lesse commanding ; which had bin vnciuill . All that hee then said to such purpose , was this : I desire you , Master Fisher , to answer in this disputation to my Arguments directly and sincerely , as in the sight of God . Which condition Master Fisher did then accept , and required the like dealing from Doctor Featly .

2. In the same page is added a second Lawe , Pag. 15. as enacted by Master Sweet , that Nothing should bee spoken or heard , but to the purpose . Which rule ( though requirable & seasonable in all Disputes or Tractates ) , yet was not mentioned by Master Sweet , nor prescribed by any other in this Conference . The second then-mentioned Rule was , as is set downe in the first Printed Relation , that None should speake but the Disputants . Vpon which , diuers of the Protestant side , both Diuines and others , did forbeare to interpose by way of Argument .

3. This Co●nter-relator is so bold , Pag. 16. as flatly to deny that which vpon our certaine knowledge wee testify ; Namely , that to the points of Popery instanced by Doctor Featly as nouelties , Master Sweet ( interrupting him , before hee had recited all of them ) answered , These are scholasticall points , not fundamentall ; And secondly , that heereupon Doctor White forthwith replyed with this Argument : These points are defined in your Councell of Trent ; therefore they are to you fundamentall ; adding also expresly this Syllogisme :

Whatsoeuer denied makes a man an Heretick , is fundamentall .

But the deniall of any of these , makes a man an Heretick with you :

Ergo euery one of these is to you fundamental .

To which Syllogisme , beeing aloud and distinctly vttered by D. White , nothing at all was answered .

4. With the same boldnes , Page 16. in the same page it is denied , that D. Featly vsed these words , Name but one Father , one Writer of note , who held the Particulars there named ( being points of Popery ) for fiue hundred yeers after Christ . Which words were vttered by him distinctly and audibly , and ( as it seemed to vs ) out of certaine Notes in a paper which he then had before him .

5. Item , Page 20. howsoeuer M. Fisher might ( as it seemeth he now interpreteth himselfe ) mean quoad nos , when he said , that A demonstration à posteriori is better than à priori , yet in the disputation he spake those words absolutely , and without limitation . For which words so absolutely deliuered , M. Fisher being then taxed by M. Ailesbury , Page 32. as defectiue in Academicall learning ; M. Boulton , a Romanist , with indignation replied vpon M. Ailesbury in this manner : Think you your self better learned , than M. Fisher ? Whereto the other presently made Answer , I thought you wiser , than to ask me such a Question .

6. Item , though they in generall tearms deny D. White to haue spoken in the manner set down , or to haue vsed any such long discourse , yet wee very well remember , that D. White did then vpbraid the said Iesuites with those their apparent tergiuersations , and hindring the Opponent from proceeding in his Arguments ; thereupon also requiring M. Fisher , according to the order set down and assented vnto by themselues , at length to oppose ; the prefixed time , for D. Featlie's opposing , beeing passed . And then D. White naming his owne propositions ( mentioned in the Relation ) , offered forthwith to Answer vpon the same directly , without any delayes or tergiuersations .

7. To M. Fishers protestation , Page 36. that he did not wittingly nor willingly write amisse ( in a former Conference betweene M. Musket and D. Featly ) , the Popish Relator saith , that nothing was replyed ; and thereupon inferreth , that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fishers sincerity , in his relation and writing of the former Disputation . But wee perfectly remember , that thereunto D. Goad presently replied in this manner : M. Fisher , Whether you did it wittingly and willingly , be it betweene God and your conscience : I am sure you erred on that part which was aduantageous for your owne side . Vpon which Reply ( no further Answer beeing giuen ) , we were and are so farre from beeing satisfied of this Iesuites sincerity , that wee rather suspect him the more .

In this sort when the Company was willing to depart , Page 37. D. Featly beeing called vpon ( as it seemed ) by some of his companions , to goe away , did arise , and offer to bee gone . Yet in his rising hee turned to M. Fisher ; saying , Will you dispute of Christ and his Apostles , or not ? To which M. Fisher sayd , I will , if you will stay ; and , stretching out his hand , took D. Featly by the arme , offering to stay him : yet he in this abrupt manner went away . Thus the Iesuites Relator .

This passage being of most moment , and ( as wee think ) the principall intent of setting foorth this Counter-relation , to abate the imputation , lying heauie vpon the Iesuite , for his finall refusing to answer to Christ and his Apostles , wee hold it fit , the more punctually to declare the manner and cause of the breach of that Conference .

True it is , that vpon the Iesuites often refusall to answer to Christ and his Apostles , the Protestant auditory took much distaste , and for a short time expressed the same , by a kind of obmurmuration , yet not by any shout of victory ( as is exaggerated by the Popish Relator ) . But after this noise ceased , D. Featly stil continued , vrging the Iesuite to answer his said instance : which the Iesuite peremptorily refused , persisting to the end , in his former denyall of answering Christ and his Apostles . And as for the Iesuites , by word & gesture offring to answer Christ and his Apostles , if D. Featly would stay ; we ( that were present , and diuers of vs next to the Opponent ) auow , that the Iesuite vsed no such word at all , nor gesture of that kinde : as in truth he could not , beeing not so neere in place to D. Featly , as that he could take him by the arme , they beeing placed distant one from the other , at the opposite ends and corners of the Table . Neither did M. Fisher arise out of his place , to take D. Featly by the arme : nor , if he had , could hee then come to reach D. Featly , there beeing many that sate , or stood , close crowding about the Table , and betwixt those two . Page 64.

The truth of his finall and resolute denyall is so euident , that the Popish Relator ( whom wee take to be M. Fisher himselfe , vnder the Mask of A. C ) . howsoeuer in this place he stoutly denyeth the said denyall ; yet , contrary to the rule of his owne Trade , Page 65. Mendacem oportet esse memorem , pag. 64. hee expresly acknowledgeth it : M. Fisher and M. Sweet did very well to stand as they did , constantly to it . They still kept the aduersary to the point , and would not permit him to diuert , eyther to dispute about Christ or his Apostles , or any other point , vntill names were giuen in all Ages . And pag. 65. hee bindeth it with a reason , taken from the principles of Hunting : The reason therefore why M. Fisher might well refuse to enter into such particular Disputes , before full Induction of names were ended was , for that this had bin to follow two Hares at once , and so to catch neither , &c.

Lastly , as for taking D. Featly by the arme ( pretended to be done by M. Fisher , for the staying him to proceed in his proposed instance ) true it is , that when he had againe and againe inculcated this challenge , and could receiue no answer of acceptation , hee was taken by the Arme , not to stay him , but to pull him away ; not by the Iesuite , but by two of his owne side ; the one wishing him to depart , for that the time was farre spent , and he could not come off vpon better tearmes ; the * * Namely , M. Chamberlain . other adding also , that himselfe could not endure to bee an hearer any longer of such a Dispute , where Christ and his Apostles are refused ; and that he ( D. Featly ) ought not to talk any longer with such an one , who refused to answer Christ and his Apostles . And so , the Opponent beeing called off , or rather pulled off , the Conference brake vp .

These aboue-testified particulars , beeing so vndoubtedly knowne , and perfectly remembred by vs , and many others ; wee cannot conceiue how the Iesuite can possibly salue those his grosse denyals of them , but by the new subtile deuice of refining a lye by Equiuocation , and calcining any speech of their own , though neuer so base and drossy a fiction , in the forging furnace of mentall reseruation .

T. Lincoln , Ro. Warwicke , Earles . Hen. Hastings , Humph. Lynde , Knights .

Tho. Goad , Doctor in Diuinity .

Richard Knightly , Edward Bugs , Esquires .

Richard Chamberlaine , Esquire , Clerke of the Court of Wards .

Tho. Draper , Tho. Gataker , Batchelors in Diuinity .

Tho. Ailesbury , Master in Arts ; the Writer of the Conference , chosen by both parties :

A REMONSTRANCE sent in a letter , by Doctor Featly , to his worthy Friend Sir Humfrey Lynde , touching the former conference held at his house , Iune 27. 1623.

PLiny writeth of one of the Roman Emperours , Natural . hist. l. 36. c. 5. that he vsed to behold the Fensers ( playing their prizes before him ) in the reflection of an Emerald : Gladiatorum pugnas spectabat Smaraegdo . which so refreshed his eye with the verdure thereof , that though the Obiect were not very acceptable alwaies , and pleasing to him ; yet the viewing it in that precious reflecting Gemme was very delightfull . Such a precious Emerald is the heart & affection on of a true friend , which represents , with delight and content , those things concerning our selues and others , which otherwise of themselues may bee irksome and grieuous vnto vs . I must confesse , your Letter touching our conference at your house , had many Pils wrapt vp in it : yet were they so sugred with your loue , and gilded with your eloquence , that I easily and pleasantly swallowed them down . It grieueth you much , that our pains in the conference ( which took the good effect you desired ) should bee no better accepted and interpreted , then they are by some , as is reported . The Romane Senate gaue publike thanks to Terentius Varro , for encountring Hannibal at Cannae , though with the losse of their 〈◊〉 Army . But it falleth out contrary , say you ; in this encounter . In which though the truth lost nothing , but gained him , whose satisfaction was by it intended , & strengthened also many others ; yet you adde , that you find some of our profession more ready to except against , then approve the proceedings in this combat . I maruell not at it . For , Saint Ierome , after hee had vndergon an encounter in poynt of faith , was taxed by some friends to the truth , for not managing that fight so well as they wished . * * Ierom. Apol. ad Pamachium . To whom that accomplished Doctor of the Church , returneth this smart Answer : Delicata doctrina est pugnanti ictus dictare de muro ; et cum ipse vnguentis delibutus sis , cruentum militem accusare formidinis : It is an easie and sweet kind of teaching , for a man that is safe himselfe , and free from danger of blowes , from a high wall to dictate strokes , & poynt out to a souldier in the Field , where he should smite his aduersarie . If those , who are so confident of their owne strength and skill , had been on the place , and engaged in the fight , peraduenture it may bee doubted , what great trophies they would haue erected of their victorie ouer these Combatants . Howsoeuer , for my part , I neuer held that Lacedaemonian King * * Eras. Apoph . ouerwise , who , hauing receiued good approbation from Iupiter , was not content therewith , but sendeth to Apollo , to knowe whether hee were of the same iudgement . I rest vpon the gracious interpretation of his Maiesty , & their approbaton , who vnder him are the chiefe Leaders in the Lords Battels . For others , I put them to their choyce , Aut * * Hieron . Apol. ad P●mach . cap. 8. proferant meliores epulas , et me conuiua vtantur , aut qualicunque caerula nostra contenti sint : Either let them prouide better cheere , and I will bee their guest , or if they will needs bee mine , let them take what they finde ; a short supper broke off , before the principall intended and prouided dishes were serued in . If this will not satisfie them , I pray them to thinke , that many times as some take a libertie to themselues , to censure other mens actions , and sleighten their indeuours : so it is not vnlikely , but that they may meete with others , who will take the like libertie to censure their censures , and contemne their contempts . But so much am I obliged to your loue , worthie Knight , that you haue not onely giuen me an inkling , that some except , but also acquainted mee what they except against that after-noones encounter . Their exceptions lie either against conferences in generall in point of Religion , of which belike they say , They neuer saw any good come ; or against the passages of this Conference in particular .

For Conferences in generall with the Aduersaries of our faith , either to conuert them to the Truth , or conuince them with the Truth , wee haue not onely frequent precepts & examples in Scripture , but also an expresse * * Can. 66. Ministers to conferre with Recusants . Canon of our Church , and an especial charge , euen with increpation from his Maiesty , in his Speech in the vpper House , at the first Session in the last Parliament . And if these were not , shall we suffer Wolues to enter into our Folds , and worry our dearest Lambs , bought at the high price of our Redeemer's Bloud , and that before our eyes , and not open our mouthes for their rescue ? Can wee heare our noble Champions disgraced ; our blessed Martyres bloud of England trampled vpon , as spilt in vain ; nay , our dearest Mother , which hath brought vs forth in Christ , to bee proclaimed an harlot , and all her children bastards , nay , damned miscreants , as hauing no visibility of Church , no possibility of saluation ; and none of vs vnsheath the sword of the Spirit in so good a quarrell ? O patientiam omni impatientiâ dignam ! Such patience would put a man out of all patience . Such silence deserues a long and lowd declamation against it . Is this to be ready to giue an account to euery man that demandeth a reason of * * 1. Pet. 3. 15 the hope that is in vs ? Is this to stop * * Tit. 1. 11 the mouth of those who subuert whole houses , by leading away captiue simple women loaden with iniquity , and by our Eue-tempting Adams to eat the forbidden fruit ? Is this to * * Tit. 1. 9. conuince the gainsayers ? I feare and tremble when I reade the words of our Sauiour ; * * Ioh. 10. 12 , 13 An hireling , seeing the Wolf , leaueth the sheep , and fleeth , and the Wolf catcheth them , and scattereth the sheep . I speak not of publick disputations ( within a State settled and resolued many yeers in point of Religion , as ours hath been , and is , God be thanked ) , but of priuate occasionall conferences , for the satisfaction especially of persons of quality : which , as * * Gaspar Laurent . de publicis disputationibus . Laurentius truely collects , without great offense to God , and scandall to his Truth , cannot sometimes bee anoided ; the Aduersaries growing confident vpon such seeming diffidence and refusall , and clamorous vpon our silence . Aristotle was wont to say , Plut. apoph . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : It is a shame for mee to hold my peace , when Zenocrates takes vpon him to teach . May not wee of the Ministery , that are Christs maeniall seruants , reflect in like manner on our selues , and say , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : It is a shame for me to be silent , when Priests and Iesuites are so clamorous ? It is a shame for the Ministers of Christ to be backward to defend , when the Agents of Antichrist are forward to oppugne our most holy faith ? nay , when the Supporters of heresie and idolatry haue taken so much brasse from the Images which they worship , to arme their own foreheads with , that they dare challenge and braue Truth and Religion to her face ? Yea , but say they in the words of Tertullian , * * Tert. de praescript cont. haeret . c. 17. Quid promouebis , disputator , & c. ? What shall we gain by confronting these men ? They wil not yeeld , nor cease to blaspheme the way of truth , though they bee neuer so plainly confuted . Non persuadebis , nec si persuaseris . Yet the Truth is honoured , in that shee hath Aduocates to plead her cause : and these pleadings erunt testimonio contra eos , shall bee an euidence against her Opposites at the Barre of Christ . The * * Quintil. Institut. orat . Gubernator vult salua naue in portu peruen●re : si tamen tempestate abreptus fuerit , non ideo minus erit gubernator . Pilot doth not alwaies bring the Ship safe to the Hauen ; nor the Chirurgion cure the wound ; nor the Physician recouer his Patient ; nor the Preacher gain his Auditory : yet , if hee do his part , hee loseth not his reward with God , nor approbation with men . To labor for fruit , is ours : the fruit of our labor is Gods ; who will render to euery man * * Rom. 2. 6 Apoc. 20. 13 according to his work , not according to the successe thereof . And therefore although the issue of Conferences should prooue no better sometimes , than of Synods in the daies of Gregorie Nazianzene , yet would not this excuse our neglect of so necessary a duty : for , God can gain by our losses , and he attaineth his end , euen in our failing ; at least , * * Rom. 1. 20 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to make the enemies of the truth vnexcusable . And what if wee doo not winne them , yet wee confirme both our selues and others , that loue the Truth in the Truth . And in this respect , Conferences , if they be aduisedly vndertaken , and discreetly managed , according to their Latine Etymologie , alwaies conferre and conduce to some good end ; to speake nothing of the Conference at Hampton-Court , or D. Rainolds conference with Hart : the fruit whereof we gather euen at this day . Whosoeuer readeth the life of Saint Austen , penned by Possidonius , and Caluins by Beza , shall finde , that as the Pelagians and Manichees of old , so the Libertines and Anabaptists of late , receiued their smartest blowe by disputation . Did not Cyril confound Nestorius ; Athanasius , Arius ; Saint Austen , Fortunatus , by disputation ? By what did Luther gain more , than by disputations ? Was not Felix , Possid . in vit. Saint Austens purchase , if I may so speak ? Synop. Cent. Was not Berillus , Saint Origens ? Fabius , Dionysius his Conuert by disputation ? What better issue of a Conference could bee desired , than was that of Caecilius with Octauius , related by * * Dial. Octa● . Minutius Felix ? which endeth thus : We are both , saith he , winners in this Game : you haue wonne mee , and I haue won the Truth Tu victor mei , & ego triumphator erroris : We are both Conquerors : you haue conquered me , and I triumph ouer my owne error .

Of writing many Books , especially of Controuersie , there is no end : in which , wee haue an Argument without an Answer , and an Answer without a Reply . But , in a Conference orderly carried , the force of euery Argument , and sufficiency of euery Answer , is brought to the Test ; and Truth and Error , by grappling together , try their vtmost strength . As , by smiting the Flint with the Steele , wee strike out fire : so , by the conflict and collision of contrary Arguments , the cleare light of Truth breaketh out . * * Rain . Thes. Vt aurum è terrae venis effossumab admistis terrae faecibus contundendo segregant Metallici ; ita veritatis aureus Thesaurus collisu rationum mundatur à faecibus , &c. As those that work vpon Mines , seuer the precious metall from earthly dregs , by beating the Ore in the stamping-mill : so the golden treasure of Truth is seuered from dregs of error , and cleared , by being beaten out by Argumentations to or against . * * de veritate religionis Christ . Ludouicus Viues long ago obserued , that the true faith and Religion is like gold , which is bettred by the hammer : but false religion , Heresie and superstition , are like Alchumy-stuffe , or glasse , which cannot endure the stroke , but are battered in pieces by it . The Christian Religion neuer refuseth touch of argument : but the Gentiles of old , and the Mahumetans at this day , refuse all triall by disputation ; nay , they prohibit it vnder paine of death .

The Hussites , as Cocleus relates in their storie , were readie to bid their Aduersaries battell by disputation , but their Aduersaries were not so readie to vndertake them . Nay , * * Cocleus , hist. l. 1. l. 21. Iohn Gerson , in his Epistle to the Arch-bishop of Prague , is so far from encouraging him to put the matter to a triall in disputation , that he aduiseth him to take a farre different course with them , whom he there falsly calls Pseudo-doctores , false teachers . Now , saith he , The onely readie way to cut downe Heresies , is by the temporall sword . Miracles are ceased ; neither is it lawfull now to tempt God , to confirme our faith , tanquam nouellam , by Miracles . Neque rursus in disputando apud tales pertinaci animositate contendentes , et innitentes propriae prudentiae , vllus vnquam erit finis ; quin potius nimis altercando , iuxta verbum Senecae , deperdetur veritas , scandalizabitur populus , laedetur quoque summa charitas . Denique talis obstinatorum proteruitas incidit in illud poetae , Aegrescitque medendo . Neither will there bee any end of disputing with such pertinacious contenders , who rely vpon their owne wisdome : nay rather , according to the words of Seneca , the truth will bee lost with much wrangling : the people will bee scandalized ; charity wounded ; in a word , the proteruitie of obstinate persons will make good that of the Poet , The wound is the worse for the cure . So little did the Papists gaine ( whatsoeuer faire glosse Gerson puts vpon it ) by disputation with those noble Fore-runners of our Protestant Faith : and far lesse haue there successours gained by their disputations in Germany , France and England . I need adde no more to our disputers against disputations in generall , because they fight but aloof off . I am now to buckle with those who take the matter & manner of this conference to task : against which , as I vnderstand by you , they obiect , that it was but a Flourish , no Fight ; a praeludium , and no true Encounter ; no Argument in it prosecuted to the full . This obiection might haue been spared , because in the Conference it self it is confessed , that it grew not to that maturity , nor attained that progresse or issue which was desired : and there also it is expressed , whose fault it was . If a heauy and dull Beast , in rich trappings and furniture , making great shew of metall by rising and curuetting , yet , beeing spurred and lashed by the Rider , and beaten by all the standers by , wil not mend his pase , what disparagement is this to the Rider ?

Howsoeuer , say they , the grapes being not ripe , were not fit for the presse ; yet as vnripe as they were , they quenched then his thirst for whom they were gathered : and they , who , without knowledge of the principal Owners , put them in a few weeks so often in the presse , affirme , that the wine * * Qui me vendit Bibliopola negat . Martial . Epigr. lyes not vpon their hand . Notwithstanding this and some other testimonies , of some kind of approbation of this rather assay , then performance , I had buried this Embryo as soone as it was borne : and as it came into the world without a Midwife ; so it should haue gone out of the world without a Bel-man , had not the slanderous tongues of enemies saued the life of it : who , both in England and beyond the seas , reported confidently , that it was such a mis-shapen and deformed monster , that the parents were ashamed it should see the Sunne . To checke these most false and iniurious reports , and preuent future scandall , it was in a manner necessarie , that this pamphlet should bee suffered to fly abroad . And now that it is abroad , what doe they libell against this little Impe , vnable to defend it self against such strife of tongues ? They say , In it the proofes are diuersiue , and that I decline the method required by Master Fisher , plainely to proue the visibilitie of our Church , by producing Catalogues of names in al ages , beginning from Luther ; and so , ascending vpwards to Christ and his Apostles . When I read this obiection in your letter , I could scarce forbeare laughing , because it brought to my remembrance the simple Answer of a fresh-water souldiour ; who , when his Antagonist remembred him with a smart blowe or two vpon his head and thighes , exclaimed , What , man ? Canst thou not see my buckler ? Is not my buckler broad enough ? I saw M. Fishers buckler , and withall I obserued his blind sides , at which I laid . Am I therefore to bee blamed ? should I aduise him , as Aiax doth Vlysses , * * Ouid. Metamorph . Post clypeumque late , et mecum contende sub illo . Lie behinde thy buckler , and contend with me vnder it ? The truth is , that in the ages immediately before Luther , and since the * * Apoc. 20. 2. 1000 yeer , in which Satan was let loose , the Papists haue much to say for the visibility , yea and pomp too of their degenerating Church : but in the Primitiue tymes , especially in the golden Age , in which Christ and his Apostles , and their immediate successors and Scholars liued and died , they haue no more to say for the visibilitie of their now new Romish Church , then Master Fisher and Master Sweet said in the conference . Whosoeuer should haue discoursed in those dayes , of Masses without Communicants , or Communion without the Cup , or the Lords Supper without Bread or Wine in substance , or prayers without vnderstanding , or adoring the Cross , or Dirges for the dead , or blessing Salt and Spettle , or censing Images , or baptizing bells , or hallowing grains and medals , or wearing Agnus Dei's , or praying by tale vpon Beads , or of the circumgestation of the Hoast , or Priest shauen crownes , or Monks Cowles , or Cardinals Hatts , or the Popes ●triple Crowne , or his pardons , and dispensations , and taxes for all manner of sinnes , or his canonizing Saints , o● deposing Kings , or the like ; would haue been thought besides himselfe .

This is the true cause why , the question being propounded , Of all ages before Luther , I chose rather to descend from Christ to Luther , then ascend from Luther to Christ and his Apostles . Demosthenes * * Orat. de Corona . will by no meanes endure , that his aduersarie Aeschines should prescribe him his method : he saith , It is against the golden rule , to be kept in all iudgements , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Yea , but they say , this is not all : for , you turned quite out of the way : You should haue proued one thing , and you proued another . The question was of the visibilitie of Church : but your arguments were of the eternity of faith . Is not this thiug ad * * Eras. Adag . Choum ; Ego respondeo de allijs : tu disputas de cepis : M. Fisher answered of Garlike , & you spake of Onions . For this vnsauory exception , M. Sweet was sauced in the conference : where it was proued against him , that to proue an effect by the cause , is a direct & naturall , and not a diuersiue proofe . My argument standeth thus :

The true Primitiue faith , once giuen to the Saints , hath had , must , and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof .

But the faith of the Protestant Church is the true Primitiue faith , once giuen to the Saints :

Therefore the Protestant faith hath had , and shall haue alwaies visible Professors thereof .

The Maior is euident in Scripture , and confessed on all hands . The Minor I offered to proue : but the Iesuites durst not stand to their deniall . The Maior and Minor passing without controll , none but Master Fisher would haue denied or distinguished vpon the conclusion . This argument I affirme not onely direct , to proue the conclusion denied ; but also most pertinent to the maine scope of the question , which is , to finde out the true Church : whereof there can be no sound and infallible proofe , but out of Scripture . And for the visibility of the true Church , either it is a matter of faith , or not . If not , what need wee so much trouble our selues with it ? If it bee matter of faith , * * De praescr . contr. Haeret. c. 16. Aliunde scilicet possunt suadere de rebus fidei , nisi ex literis fidei ? can they otherwise perswade in matter of faith , then out of the Writ of faith , that is , the holy Scripture ? For humane Stories and Records in al ages , they are not easily found : and when we haue found them , we find them so defectiue , so corrupted and defaced , and oftentimes so contrary one to another , that they scarce beget humane faith subiect to errour . And were they neuer so perfect , as Bellar. confesseth , they could not beget * * Bellar. l. 2. de effect . Sacram. c. 25. quod Histories quibus meminerint eorum Conciliorum , non potest parere fidem nisi humanam , cui potest subesse falsa . diuine and infallible faith . If no man can bee saued , without knowledge that he is in the true Church : and no man can knowe , that he is in the true Church , vnless hee can proue out of good Authours , the perpetuall succession and visibility of the Church to which hee adhereth , as Iesuites make their breake-neck climax or gradation ; what shall become of many millions of Christians in their owne Church , who neither haue time , nor meanes , nor learning , to search all Records of Antiquitie ? Could all Lay Papists produce Writers in all Ages , who maintained the present Tridentine faith ( which none yet of the their learned Clerks euer did , or could , ) yet they are little neerer : For Iewes and Paynims , and it may bee , diuers sorts of Hereticks can proue too many visible professors of their Heresies and impieties in all ages , since Christ and his Apostles times , and some before . From visibility of Professors no man can certainely conclude truth of sauing Doctrine conformable to Scriptures : but from conformity of Doctrine to the scriptures , a man may by infallible consequence , grounded vpon Gods promises to his Church , conclude perpetuall visibility of professors , more or lesse . And therefore the course I tooke , is not onely the streight , but the easiest and onely certaine way to bring vs to the true Church , which is the * * 1 Tim. 3. 15 house of the liuing God , the pillar and ground of truth . Thus much for proofe of my proofe by syllogism . I wil now giue you an account of my Catalogue , and shew my inducements to my induction . Against which , I heare by you , it is excepted , that in vndertaking it , I leaue the beaten way , and take a way by my self , where I shall surely lose my selfe , & neuer come to an end . To this obiection , the ciuil Law furnisheth me with an Answer : Nemo tenetur diuinare ; No man is bound to prophecie before-hand , especially of the successe of anothers labours . If leaue be procured for a second Meeting , the golden thread of succession , which I tooke hold of from Christs blessed hand , and his Apostles , shall be drawne downe ( God willing ) to later Ages , euen to Luthers time . But what they meane by holding the beaten way , I cannot easily diuine . If they mean , that I ought to proue the visibility of the Protestant Church , by hauing recourse meerely to the corrupt Popish Church , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ; I say , that way , perhaps beaten by some , yet seems to me a slipperie & dirty way : and I hope I shall bee able to shew , that we need not * * Eras. Adag . aurum in stercore quaerere , to seek the golden purity of faith , amids the dung and drosse of Romish superstitions , and deprauations in later ages . Many of our Worthies haue shewne mee a more excellent way ; quos sequor à longe , et vestigia pronus adoro . These are , Doctor Abbot , now my Lord of Canterbury , in his Answer to Hill ; Humfrey to Campion his third reason ; Doctor Vsher , now Lord of Meth , de successione Ecclesiae ; The History of the Waldenses ; Fox , Acts and Monuments ; Crispin , of the state of the church ; Morneys mystery of iniquity , with Riuets defense thereof ; Simon Voious Catalogue of doctors ; Illiricus witnesses of the truth ; Wolsius his select readings ; Lydius his Waldensia , and Mouster à Vortleys noble discourse . As those that trauell by night through the * * Be. Orat. Hercynian Forest , when they are at a stand , obserue certaine birds fleeing before them ; and , by the brightnes of their white feathers shining in the dark , guide their steppes , and finde out a way : so , in vshering the Witnesses of Truth throughout all Ages , when in the darker times mine owne obseruations shall faile mee , I doubt not , but , by the bright wings of those auspicate birds that haue flowne before me , I mean the light ▪ of their siluer quils who haue wrote of this Subject , to finde out my way .

I haue omitted nothing that hath been materially excepted against the Conference , except an omission of the s●ate of the question ; which they say is not so perspicuously and dilucidly deliuered , as they could wish . That which is set down to this purpose in the entry into the Conference , they say is so brief , that , * * Sen. de Ben. instar fulguris terret magis quàm illustrat , it is like lightning , which rather scares , than lights the Passenger in his way . If this were a iust exception , yet it lyeth not against me , who had the Opponents part put vpon me , but against M. Fisher , who be-spoke himselfe to be Respondent . For , by the orders of all Schools , it is the Answerers , and not the Opponents task , to state the Question . He that keeps a Fort in battel , is to make his ramparts , and guard the walls with redouts and out-works : the assailants part is to lay well his batteries , and make breaches where he can .

At the next desired meeting , when D. White or my selfe should haue supplyed the Respondents place , the Question should haue been explicated to the full ( by the distinctions & conclusions heerin inclosed ) . But , as that Meeting , by iniurious suggestions , was then , so I feare , all future Meetings in this kinde will bee stopped by the same Engine . The Informers , whether they were Popishly or indifferently affected in points of Religion , I knowe not : sure I am , they doo the diuel a great deal of wrong , by incroaching vpon his office , which is , To bee * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : the Accuser of the brethren . Accusator fratrum . As for mine owne part , it grieues not m● to receiue a wound from them , who , in due respect to Religion and Calling , should haue rather applied a salue . But I may truely say , in the words of Aria to her dearest Partus ,

— * * Mart. Epigr. Vulnus quod cepi non dolet , in quam : Sed quòd tu caperes , hoc mihi , Linde , dolet .

It grieues me , that you should suffer any thing for your religious and pious intention , to regain your kinsman to our Church , and establish your friends in the Truth . Yet let not this discourage you in your holy purposes for the good of God's Church . Macte virtute . As you haue raised Bertram : so raise other witnesses of the Truth from the dust , and heale those Authors who haue lost peeces of their tongues ( which the Indices Expurgatorij haue cut off , for being too long-tongued against the Church of Rome ) . And though peraduenture you receiue no better reward , at least by some , than affronts for acknowledgements ; and rebukes for thanks ; yet doubt not ▪ one day , for a full recompence of your paines and charges . Trust him for your Aur●ola , whom you trust for your Crown : take his word for the Interest , vpon whom wee all rely for the Principal ; who as he fearfully threatneth , that he wil be ashamed of them who deny * * Mat. 10. 33 him before men , so he graciously promiseth to all those who * * Luke 12. 8 confesse him before men , that he will confesse them before his Father in Heauen .

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 DANIEL FEATLY .

Touching the Visibility of the CHVRCH .

The Questions propounded by the Iesuite , were ,

1 WHether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible ?

2 Whether visible Protestants are to be named in all Ages , & c ?

To the first question , I answer : This question , as all other , will be best explicated

by Distinctions of the tearmes . Conclusions or Assertions vpon the distinctions .

The tearms to be distinguished of , are three . The subiect , A Church . The denomination , Protestant . The attribute , Visible .

Of the tearm , Church .

The first distinction .

The Church may be considered Either in respect of election & inward sanctification ; Or in respect of outward vocation , and profession of the truth .

In this question , wee consider the Church in the latter respect , in which alone it is visible : for although the elect , as they are men , and professe the true faith , are visible ; yet men professing the true faith , as they are elect , and inwardly sanctified and regenerated in their minds , are not visible .

The second distinction .

A Church professing the Christian faith , may be taken , either

More largely for a company of Professors of the true faith , whether they be vnited vnder one gouernment in one Countrey , Kingdome or Empire , or scattered through the whole world .

Or more strictly , for a company of professors of the true faith , hauing actuall communion one with the other , vnited vnder one gouernment , within certain limits , secluded and seuered from other societies and congregations . As for example : The Reformed Church in France , at this day is vnited within it selfe , and seuered from the Popish Church , and the members thereof : among whom yet they liue , and ciuilly conuerse .

In this question , wee tie not our selues to prooue a Protestant Church in all Ages , in the latter sense . It sufficeth , that we shew it in the former , and prooue , that there were alwaies those who ▪ maintained the doctrine which wee now teach , whether they were vnited , or seuered , had actuall communion one with another , or not ; kept publique assemblies by themselues apart , from the Romane , and other Churches , or not : For as Saint Austen sheweth * * Aug. Contra Donatist . lib. 6. cap. 4. Idem Spiritus sanctus ea dimittit , qui datus est omnibus sanctis sibi charitate cohaerentibus , siue se nouerint corporaliter , siue non . against the Donatists , The same Spirit of God is giuen to all Saints , who are knit one to another in charity , whether they know one another corporally or not .

Of the denomination Protestant .

Distinction the first .

Protestants may be considered , Either according to their name , taken from at legall act of protesting either against the Councell of Trent , or against the * * D. Andrew , now Bishop of Winton , Resp. ad Apolog. Bellar . pag. 20. Protestantium nostris nomen ab euentu fuit : errores enim tum quosdam & abusus non diutius tolerare velle se , sed ●am tollere protestati sunt ; caetera vero quae sa●a vobiscum retinere . errors and abuses of Poperie , when they grewe to their ful measure , & were most vnsufferable , about the time that Luther beganne to oppose the Church of Rome , or a little after ; or from the Protestation of the Bohemians , in the yeere of our Lord 1421. set downe by * * Cocl . lib. 5. Coclaeus , in his L. 5. histor . of the Hussits :

Or according to their faith and doctrine , positiuely comprised in , & confined to scripture ; and oppositely , as it is repugnant to all errors in faith , and manners , against the holy Scriptures , especially against the present errors of the Church of Rome .

In this question , wee consider Protestants in the later sense , not in the former . The name , we confesse , of Protestants is not very antient , as neither is the name of Papists , much lesse of Iesuites : but the Doctrine of the Protestants wee maintaine to be as antient as Christ and his Apostles : Ignat. Epist. ad Philad . and we may truly say with Ignatius the Martyr , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : Iesus Christ is my antiquity . As the same piece of gold successiuely passeth thorow diuers stampes and inscriptions : so the self-same faith of Protestants , in substance , hath passed thorow all Ages , yet with diuers names ; as of Becherits , Berengarians , Petrobrusians , Henricians , Albingenses , Waldenses , Dulcinists , Lolards , Luiddamites , Wickleuists , Hussites , Thaborits , Lutherans , Hugonots , Gospellers and Reformers . The faithfull , as wee read in the Acts , * * Acts 11. 26. were first called Christians at Antioch : yet were they indeed Christians , euen from Adam , after the promise was giuen , that the * * Gen. 3. It shall break thy head . seed of the woman should break the Serpents head . So , that although we should grant to * * Apolog. ad Reg. Ang. Bellarmine , that the name of Protestants was not heard of , for 1500. yeeres after Christ , yet would it not hence follow , but that the Protestants faith might bee as antient as Christ and his Apostles , yea , in a true sense , as Adam himselfe ; sith the Protestant faith is no other then the pure Primitiue Christian faith .

Distinction the second .

Protestants in faith and doctrine are of two sorts ; either

Implicitely , and vertually : and such are all those , who holding the Scripture for the sole and entire rule of faith , condemn consequently all doctrines of faith , against or besides the holy Scriptures , especially if they deliuer such positions and doctrines , from whence by necessary and infallible consequence , some particular error or other of the Romish Church ( although not perhaps sprung vp in their time ) may bee refelled .

Or explicitly , and actually : and such are they , who directly & professedly opposed Romish errors as they crept in , or not long after ; especially those who opposed the whole masse of Popish errors and superstitions , after they grew to a ripe sore , fit to bee lanced , about the time of Luther .

In this question , wee restraine not the name Protestants , to those who renounce all the particular errors of the present Romish church at this day : for such Protestants could not bee much before Luther . The particular diseases must in nature bee presupposed , before a particular remedy can bee applyed vnto them . Reformation necessarily presupposeth a disorder , and deformation . Neither doe wee restraine the name Protestants , to such only as in particular set themselues directly and professedly against some speciall error of Popery , as of Transubstantiation , Purgatory , Indulgences , &c. for such professed opposing , could not bee imagined , before such errors were in beeing . But as the Fathers , before the Councell of Nice , did not in words define 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or that the Son was of the same substance with the Father , and not 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 onely , that is , of a like substance ; nor professedly wrote against the Heresie of Arius by name : Homoousiani . yet are they rightly esteemed 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 indeed , or maintainers of the right beliefe , touching the consubstantiality of the Sonne to the Father ; because out of their Sentences and Writings this truth may be deduced , howsoeuer it be not formally expressed in the tearme of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : So all those are to bee esteemed Protestants , who , holding nothing against the protestant faith , deliuer some doctrines , and positions , from which some error of Popery or other may bee cleerly refuted , whether such error were then maintained by any in the Church of God , or no.

Of the tearme Visible .

A Church may be said to be visible , two manner of waies : either

Visible to the whole world , and that eminently , and in some sort pompously , as the Roman Empire , & kingdom of Naples , or respublica Venetorum : Bellar. l. 3. de Eccles. militante . c. 12. in which sense , the Papists affirm , that the true Church ought alwaies to bee visible : but wee denie it .

Or visible to all the members of that Church , either such as God hath already called , or such as he will call in time , who by searching and due inquirie , may and shall finde out the true Church their mother .

In this question , we vndertake not to prooue a Protestant Church visible in all Ages , in the first acception , but in the later onely , wee maintaine a visible ; but not a conspicuous , eminent , and glorious face of a Church in all Ages , consisting of an apparant Hierarchy , as the Papists teach .

I shall not need to adde more distinctions for the explication of this first question . I come therefore briefly to the particular assertions , seruing for the confirmation and illustration of the generall and mayne conclusion , touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church .

The first assertion .

The Church , in the most strict and proper acception thereof , is the whole company of Gods elect . Thus S. Paul in the Epistle to the Hebrewes , describeth her : The * * Heb. 12. 23. generall assembly and Church of the first borne , which are written in heauen . And Saint Gregory vpon Ezechiel : There is one Church of the elect , both going before , and following after . And againe vpon the Canticles : Christ , according to the grace of his foreknowledge , hath built a holy Church of Saints , which shall eternally perseuer in grace . And Saint Bernard : * * Greg. in Ezek. This is the Church of the Elect. Hom. 15. l. 2. Vna Ecclesia est electorum praecedentium atque sequentium . Of this Church , Greg. in Cant. Sanctam Ecclesiam , de sanctis in aeternum permansuris exstruxit . Saint Austen * * Ber. ser. 68. in Cant. Haec est Ecclesia electorum . speaketh most expresly : He shall neuer be withdrawne from that Church , Aug. l. 20. de ciuit . Dei . c. 8. which is predestinated and chosen before the foundations of the world : Nunquam ab illa Ecclesia seduceturpraedestinatae , et electa ante constitutionem mundi . yet poore Iohn Hus , as * * In his Catholick moderator . H. C. a zealous Papist , rightly obserueth , was burnt , by the decree of the Councell of Constance , for saying no more in this point , then Saint Paul and Saint Gregory said before him , viz. * * Cocleus Hist. Bohem. l. 3. Catholica Ecclesia est omnium praedestinatorum duntaxat : The Catholique Church consists of all those that are predestinate , and of them onely . But the best is , as our * * Resp. ad Camp . Humfrey speaketh pertinently : Combustus est , non confutatus Hussius : Iohn Hus was indeed burned , but hee was neuer confuted . His doctrine is written with a poynt of a Diamond , neuer to bee razed out : for , it is Gods truth : The foundation of God standeth sure , hauing this seale , The Lord knoweth them that are his . And so I fall into my second assertion .

The second assertion .

The Church in this acception , as it consisteth of the elect onely , is knowne to God onely , and consequently is inuisible . This the Apostle * * 2. Tim. 2. 29. teacheth : The Lord knoweth them that are his : And the Spirit intimateth as much in these words , * * Reu. 2. 17. I will giue him a white stone , and in it a new name written , which no man knoweth , sauing hee that receiueth it . For , what man * * 1. Cor. 2. 11. knoweth the things of a man , saue the spirit of man which is in him ? The * * Ier. 17. 9 , 10. heart of man is deceitfull aboue all things , who can knowe it ? I the Lord search the heart , I try the reines . This soueraigne priuiledge of Almighty God , to sound the bottome of mans heart , the faithfull acknowledge in their deu●utest prayers ; as Salomon : * * 1. King . 8. 39. Thou euen thou onely , knowest the hearts of all the children of men . And Ieremie , * * Ier. 20. 12. Thou that triest the Righteous , and seest the reines , and the heart . And the eleuen Apostles : * * Acts 1. 24. Thou Lord , which knowest the harts of all men Now , if God onely knowe the heart , he onely knowes who beleeue in him , and loue him in sincerity of heart . Therefore let none , saith Saint * * Cyp. l. 3. Ep. 3. Cyprian , Nec quisquam sibi , quod soli filio tribuit Pater , vindicare se puter , vt ad aream ventilandam et purgandam paleam iam ferre se posse , &c. arrogate that which the Father hath giuen to the Sonne onely ( to weet ) in the floore of the Church , to take the fanne , and seuer the chaffe from the wheat . The elect are the first borne , whose names are written in heauen , Heb. 12. 23. Now , what earthly man will take vpon him to reade that which is written in heauen ? Saint * * Prosp. l. de Grat. & libero arbitrio , ad Ruffin : Certum apud Deuin , definitumque esse numerum electorum ad vitam aeternam Prosper forbeares it ; defining , that God is hee who defineth the certaine number of those , who are predestinated to eternall life . Whence we may rightly conclude , that the Pope , in canonizing Saints , and entering them into the heauenly Hierusalem , incurres into a pra●unire , by encroching on the prerogatiue of Almighty God , who reserueth to himselfe alone the discerning of vessels of honour , from vessels of dishonour , that is , the elect from the reprobate . But our aduersaries obiect , If wee restraine the Church to the elect , and pronounce them inuisible , we make a * * Camp . rat. 3. Platonicall Idea , or an aer●all body , or mathematicall abstract of the Church . Heereunto we answer , first ▪ out of Saint * * Prosp. loc. sup●● citat . Prosper : Certum apud Deum esse numerum electorum , tam impium est negare , quàam ipsi gratiae contraire : It is as impious to deny , that the number of the elect is certaine with God , as to deny grace it selfe . And will any dare to call that a fansie or an imaginary Idea , which is most certaine in the knowledge of God ? Secondly , we teach not , that the Church in this notion is an Idea , extra rem , or singularia , or a body houering in the aire , or floting in the fansie : we teach , that it truly subsisteth , partly in heauen in the triumphant ; and partly on earth , in the militant part therof . This militant part , though in respect of the whol number & inward calling , it bee inuisible , yet in respect of the outward calling to , and profession of sauing faith , it is alwaies more or lesse visible . The elect are visible men , and exist in the visible congregations of Christians , as the apple in the ey , or a Diamond in a Ring , or the soule in the body . As Athens is called the * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Greece of Greece : so may wee tearme them the Church of the Church : for , in respect of them principally , are those glorious titles giuen , and gracious promises made to the Church , which are registred in holy Scripture .

The third assertion ( which trencheth neer vpon our question ) .

The Church , in a larger notion , comprehendeth all those who eternally professe the true worship of God in Christ . Thus Lactantius * * Lactan. l. 4. Instit. dium . c. vlt. defineth the Church : Catholica Ecclesia est , quae verum Dei cultum retinet : hic est fons veritatis , hoc est domicilium fidei , hoc Templum Dei : quo si quis non intrarit , vel a quo si quit exiuerit , àspe vitae ac salutis aeternae alienus est &c. That is the Catholique Church , which retaines the true worship of God . This is the Fountaine of truth : this the House of faith : this is the Temple of God : he that shall not enter heerein , or shall depart hence , is farre from the hope of life and eternall saluation . Of the Church in this acception , our * * Mat. 18. 17. Sauiours words are to bee vnderstood , If hee refuse to heare the Church , let him be to thee as an Heathen or Publican . And Saint Lukes , * * Acts 15. 22. Then pleased it the Apostles and Elders with the whole Church , &c. And * * 1. Cor. 11. 22. Saint Paul 's , Despiseyee the Church of God , & c ? And in his Epistle to the * * Ephes. 3. 2. Ephesians : Vnto him bee glory in the Church , &c. And to * * 1. Tim. 3. 5. Timothy : How shall hee take care of the Church of God ? The Church in this notion is in Scripture compared to a field , wherein are tares with the wheat ; a floore , wherein is chaffe with graine ; a net , wherein are sweet fish , and rotten ; an house , in which are precious vessels and vile ; to the Ark , in which were cleane and vncleane beasts . To the Church taken in this sense , a a Mat. 16. 18. Christ directeth vs : Tell the Church . And Saint Paul , That b b 1. Tim. 3. 15. thou maist knowe how thou oughtest to behaue thy self in the House of God , which is the Church of the liuing God . And Saint * * Cypr. de simplic . praelat . Non pertinet ad Christi praemia , qui relinquit Ecclesiam Christi . alienus est : profanus est : habere ●am non potest Deum patrem , qui Ecclesiam non habet matrem . Cyprian : Hee hath no right to the rewards of Christ , who leaueth the Church of Christ : hee is a stranger : hee is a profane person : for hee cannot haue God to his Father , who hath not the Church for his Mother . And Saint * * Aug. confess . l. 8. Augustine , Non deputabo te inter Chr●stianos , nisi in Ecclesia Christi ●e videro . I will not account thee a Christian , vnlesse , I see thee in the Church .

The fourth assertion .

The Church in this notion , as it extends to all that professe the true Religion , and participate in the pledges of saluation , was euer , is , and shall be in some degree visible to the end of the world . That it hath euer beene hitherto visible , all Histories accord : and that it shall so continue to the worlds end , our Sauiours words are our warrant , * * Mat. 28. 20. Goe yee , and teach all nations , &c. andle , I am with you alwaies , euen vnto the end of the world . For the continuance of Gods Word , the Prophet Esay is most peremptory : This * * Esay 59. 21. is my couenant with thee , saith the Lord , &c. My words which I haue put into thy mouth , shall not depart out of thy mouth , nor out of the mouth of thy seed , nor out of the mouth of thy seeds seed , from hence-foorth for euer . And Christs words are as direct for the Sacraments , that they shall bee administred , till his second comming : * * 1. Cor. 11. 26. As oft as yee eat of this Bread , and drink of this Cup , yee shew foorth the Lords death till hee come . And lastly , S. Paul 's words are as expresse for the Ministery : * * Ephes. 4. 11. 12. 13. He gaue some Apostles , some Prophets , &c. till wee all come in the vnity of the faith , &c. It is true , Antichrist shall make great hauocke of the Church , and there shall be such a falling away , that Christ at his second comming shall scarce finde faith on the earth : false prophets , and false Christs shall arise , and seduce , if it were possible , the elect ; but that is not possible : hell-gates shall neuer so farre preuaile against the Church . Whatsoeuer becommeth of hypocrites and temporizers , it is certaine that the elect shall remaine in it , and retaine the 〈◊〉 faith ; and if they retaine it , they will also p●ofessed it 〈◊〉 * * Rom. 10. 10. for with the heart , man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse 〈◊〉 with the tongue , confession is made vnto saluation . Sain● * * Aug. in Ps. 110. conc . 2. Quid est quod dicis , Iam perijsse Ecclesiam de omnibus gentibus ? Quando ad hoc praedicatur euangelium , vt possit esse in omnibus gentibus , ergo ad finem seculi Ecclesia erit in omnibus gentibus . Austen thus stoppeth the mouthes of the ●onatists : What is that that thou sayest , The Church 〈◊〉 already perished , and gone out of all Nations ? 〈◊〉 therefore the Gospell is preached , that it may bee in all Nations , therefore euen vnto the end of the world , 〈◊〉 Church shall bee in all Nations . I may saue the labour of heaping more testimonies to confirme this point , because * * Page 52. & 53. M. Fisher , in his reflection on the Conference , spendeth many lines and much labour in fortifying it , as a strong bulwark ( as hee imagineth ) against vs . I conclude therefore with Saint Ambrose , * * Hexam . l. 4. c. 2. Ecclesia 〈◊〉 potest , effluere non potest : The Church may bee euershadowed , it cannot quite faile or bee 〈◊〉

The fift assertion .

The militant visible Church is not alwaies equally visible , but sometimes it is more visible , sometimes it is lesse . It was more visible in the Prophet Dauid 's dayes , * * Psal. 79. 1. 2. when he sung , In Iurie is God knowne , his name is great in Israel , then it was in the time that * * Hos. 3. 4. Hosea prophecies of , Israel shall remain many daies without a King , and without a sacrifice . It was more visible in the daies * * Mal. 1. 11. Malachie foreshews of , From the rising of the Sunne , euen to the going downe there of , my name shall be great among the Gentiles , then in the daies * * 1. King . 19. 18. Eliah complaineth of : I , euen I , am left alone . The Church was more visible in the daies of Salomon , when she is compared to a * * Psal. 45. 10. Queene honourably attended , then in the daies Saint Iohn foretelleth of , when shee is compared to a * * Reu. 12. 7. Woman flying into the wildernesse . Shee was more visible in the daies * * Esay 49. 23. Esay fortelleth of , Kings shall bee thy nursing Fathers , and Queenes thy nursing mothers , then in the daies of Antichrists tyrannie , when Kings * * Apoc. 17. 17. shall giue their Kingdome to the beast . In regard of this mutable estate of the militant Church , * * Mica . 7. 8. Micah giueth her this Motto : Reioyce not ouer mee , O my enemy : though I fall , I shall rise againe . And Salomon likeneth her to the Moone : * * Cant. 6. 10. My Loue is faire as the Moone . To which ground Saint Austen alluding , interpreteth , * * Aug. in Psal. 10. Obscuram Lunam Ecclesiam , the Moone in the Eclipse or darkned , the Church in trouble and persecution . And Saint * * Ambrose . Hexam . l. 4. c. 8. Ambrose , Ecclesia , vt Luna , defectus habet et or●us frequentes : The Church , as the Moone , hath her often waxings and wainings . And in his * * Ambrose l. 5. ep. 31. Luna ipsa ( qua propheticis oraculis species Ecclesiae figuratur ) cum primum resurgens in menstruas reparatur aetates , tenebris noctis obsconditur , paulatimque cornua sua complens , vel e● regione Solis obsoluens , clari splendore sulgoris rutilat . Epistle : The Moone it selfe ( whereby , in the Oracles of the Prophets , the countenance of the Church is figured ) when at the first rising againe , shee is renued into the ages of the moneth , shee is hidden by the darknesse of the night ; and by little and little filling her hornes , or right ouer against the Sunne , rounding them , doth shine with the light of cleere brightnesse .

The sixt assertion

The false and malignant Church is oft time 〈◊〉 visible , conspicuous and ample , then the true Church : and consequently , eminent Visibility , amplitude , and splendor is no certaine note of the true Church . The glorious face and outside of a Church , which dazleth our aduersaries eyes , was rather against * * 1. Kings 22. 22. Michea , then for him : all the Prophets prophecied , &c. It was rather against * * 1. Kings 19. 10. Eliah , then for him : for there were 450 Priests of Baal , besides C●●marims ; and hee took no notice in a manner of any seruant of God but himselfe . It was rather against * * Ier. 18. 18. Ieremy , then for him , when all the Priests took counsell against him , saying , The law shall not depart from the Priest , &c. Nay , the glorious outside and face of a Church , was rather against * * Mat. 27. 1. Christ himselfe , then for him . All the chiefe Priests and Elders took counsell against Iesus . Since Christs death , to instance onely in one sort of Hereticks , the Arrians ( vndoubtedly ) would haue carried the truth away by voyces and outward pomp , for some hundreds of yeres , if that were a safe triall : for Saint * * Ier●m ad Lucif . c. 7. Ierome complaineth , Tunc * * 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . vsiae nomen abolitum est : tunc 〈◊〉 fidei damnatio conclamata est 〈…〉 Arrianum se esse miratus est : Then the name of substance was abolished : then the condemnation of the ●●cene Creed was proclaimed , the whole world sighed and maruelled , that it became Arrian , Vincentius * * Vincent . aduers. haeres . p. 6● . put● the● case what was to be done , Quando , saith he , Arrianorum venenum non iàm portiunculam quandam , sed pene orbem totum contaminauerat , adeo vt prope cunctis Latini Sermonis Episcopis , partim vi , partim fraude deceptis , caligo quaedam mentibus offunderetur : When as the poyson of the Arrians did not infect a little portion , but in a manner the whole world , insomuch that almost all the Latine Bishops , partly by force , and partly by cunning , were intrapped , and had a kinde of mist cast before their eyes . These things beeing so , may we not iustly vpbraid the Papists , as Gregory Nazianzen doth the Arrians , * * Nazian. ad Arrian . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 & c ? Where are they now , who vpbraid pouerty vnto vs , and boast of their wealth ; who define the Church by multitude , and despise the little flock of Christ ; who honour the sand , and reproach the greater lights of heauen ; who treasure vp Check-stones , and passe by Margarites ?

The seauenth Assertion .

When there is a difference betweene the visible professors of Christianity , and each party pretendeth it selfe to bee the true Church , in opposition to the other , the onely sure and infallible meanes to know which of the dissident parties are of the true Church , is , by trying their doctrine by Scripture . To this touch-stone of truth , the Prophet * * Esay 8. 20. Esay directeth vs , To the Law , and to the Testimony , if they speak not according to this Word , it is because there is no light in them . And our blessed Sauiour ; * * Iohn 5. 3. 9. Search the Scriptures : for in them you think yee haue eternall life . And S. Peter , * * 2. Pet. 1. 19. We haue also a more sure word of Prophesie ; vnto which , you doe well , if yee giue heed as to a light that shineth in a darke place . By this rule , the * * Acts ●7 . 11. Bereans examined the doctrine of the Apostle , searching the Scriptures daily , whether those things were so . Saint Austen * * Aug. de vnit . Ecclesiae . c. 3. best approoueth of this course , to come to the knowledge of the true Church , In Scripturis Canonicis requiramus Ecclesiam : in the Canonicall Scriptures let vs search the Church : And , Non audiamus , Haec dico , Haec dicis : sed audiamus , 〈◊〉 dicit Dominus . Sunt certi libri Dominici , quorum authoritati vtrique consentimus ; ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam : Let vs not heare , I say this , or Thou saist this : but let vs heare , This saith the Lord . There are certaine bookes of God , to whose authority wee both consent ; there let vs seeke the Church . And , after much debating the matter , hee concludeth the Chapter with these words , Ergo in Scriptur is Canonic is eam requiramus : therefore let vs seeke her ( the Church ) in the Canonicall Scriptures . And , Quisque nostrum non in iustitia sua , sed in Scripturis quaerat Ecclesiam . Aug. ep. 48. Saint * * Basil. ep. 82. Basil directeth vs to the same course , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : With whomsoeuer , doctrine agreeable to Scripture shall bee found , the truth is alwaies to be adiudged to bee on their side . To forbeare more allegations , the learned Author of the imperfect work on Mathew , hearing the name of S. * * In Mat. 24. Chrysostome , deliuereth a firmer conclusion , in formall and expresse tearmes , and that seuerall times ; shewing , that his iudgement was settled and resolued vpon it . 〈…〉 modis ●stendebatur quae esset Ecclesia Christi , et quae Gentilitas : nunc autem nullo modo cognoscitur , quae vera Ecclesia Christi , nisi tantummodò per Scripturas : quare quia omnia haec , quae sunt proprie Christi in veritate , habent et haereses illae in schemate , similiter Ecclesiam , similiter , scripturas , similiter baptismum , similiter eucharistiam , et caetera omnia , dem●m ipsum Christum : Volens ergo quis cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia , vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione multitudinis , nisi tantummodo per Scripturas ? Et pòst , Qui ergò vult cognoscere quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia , vnde cognoscat nisi tantummodò per Scriptura● ? Formerly it was shewed many waies , what was the true Church of Christ , and what was Gentilism : but now it is knowne no other way , which is the true Church of Christ , but onely by the Scriptures . Wherefore , because all these things which properly belong vnto Christ in truth , euen those heresies haue in shadow ; in like manner the Church , in like manner the Scriptures , in like manner Baptisme , in like manner the Lords Supper , and all other things ; finally , Christ himselfe : Hee therfore , who is desirous to know which is the true Church of Christ , whence should hee know it , in such a great confusion of multitude , but onely by the Scriptures ? And a little after , Hee that will therefore know which is the true Church of Christ , whence should hee know it , but onely by the Scriptures ? It is obserued by those who follow the Law , that when a Defendant excepts against the iudgement & iurisdiction of the Court , he certainely despaires of his cause in that Court. And what can wee interpret it in our aduersaries , but distrust and despaire of their cause , to detract as they doe from the perfection , and except against the authority and sufficiency of Scripture , for deciding all controuersies ?

And heer I will be bold to turne the Iesuite Campions roring Canon against him and his fellowes : * * Edmund . Camp . rat. 1. Cùm multa sint quae aduersariorum in ca●sa diffidentiam loquuntur , tum nihil aqué atque sauctorum maiest as bibliorum foedissimè violata , 〈…〉 quid causa a fuit , vt Euangelium Mathaei & Acta resigerent Apostolica ? Desperatio , &c. Quid 〈◊〉 vt omnes Pauli repudiarent Epistolas ? Desperati● , I may adde , following his tune , Quid Piggi● , Hosio , Lyndano ; quid Stapletono , Bellarmino , & c ? Whereas there are many things which proclaime our Aduersaries distrust of their cause , so nothing so much as their profane violating of the Maiesty of holy Scripture . What was the cause , that the Manichees repeale the Gospell of Saint Mathew , and the Acts of the Apostles ? Desperation . What was the cause that the Ebionites reiected all the Epistles of Saint Paul ? Desperation . I may goe on , following the same note and tune , and say , What is the cause that Ludouicus cals the Scriptures , Dead inke ? Desperation . What is the cause that the Bishop of Poictiers stiles it in like maner , rem inanimem et ●●tam , a thing without life , and dumb ? Desperation . What is the cause , that Piggius , Ecehius , 〈◊〉 , Pereonius , Norris , & diuers others so much detract from the authority and sufficiency , and obscure the excellencie of Scripture , by terming it , Nasum cereum , Euangelium nigrum , Theologiam atramentariam , Lesbiam regulam ? a Nose of waxe , a black Gospell , inkie Diuinity , a Lesbian rule ? Desperation . They appeale from Scripture , vnder pretence , that it is an imperfect rule , and dumbe Iudge , and therefore refuse to be tryed by it in the points of difference betweene vs : why ? because that if they should referre the ending of all Controuersies to Scripture , and put themselues on Christ and his Apostles , they soon knowe what would become of them and their cause .

The eightth Assertion .

The paucitie of right Beleeuers , and obscurity and latencie of the true Church , protesting against the corruption and idolatry in the later ages therof , is most clearely foretold in Scripture . First , by our * * Luke 18. 8. Sauiour : When the Sonne of man commeth , shall he finde faith on the earth ? & & In hunc locum . Maldonat the Iesuite answereth , Vix fideminueniet : He shall scarce finde faith . False * * Mat. 24. 11 , et 24. Christs and false prophets shall arise , and shall seduce many , yea , they shall do signes and wonders , and seduce , if it were possible , the Elect. Secondly , by Saint * * 1. Tim. 4. 1. Paul , the Spirit speaketh 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , exertè , expresly , that in the latter dayes some shall fall from the faith . And in the second , to the * * 2. Thes. 1. Thes. 1. There shall be a falling away first . Thirdly , by Saint * * Reu. 10. 3 , 12. Iohn , After a thousand yeers , Satan must bee loosed a little season . And , * * Reu. 12. 4. The taile of the Dragon drew the third part of the Starres of Heauen . And , * * Reu. 13. 3 , 4. All the world wondred after the Beast , and they worshipped the Beast , et . v. 8. saying , Who is like vnto the Beast , & c. ? All that dwell vpon the earth shall worship him , whose names are not written in the Booke of Life , &c. * * Reu. 18. 3. All nations haue drunke of the wine of the wrath of her fornications , &c. And no maruell , that the true seruants of God were reduced to such a paucity , when the diuell and Antichrist set all their forces against them . * * Apoc. 12. 15. The Serpent casts out of his mouth water , as a flood , after the woman , that hee might cause h●r to be caried away of the flood . I might alledge many pregnant testimonies , both out of the antient Fathers , & the learned Papists also of later time , for the blacke and gloomie , darke and dismall dayes of the Church vnder the last and greatest persecution by Antichrist . But Saint * * Aug ep. 80. Austens testimony is so cleere for the obscurity and latency of the Church , that I need adde no more . Ecclesia est Sol , Luna , et Stellae : quando Sol obscurabitur , et Luna non dabit lucem suam , et Stellae cadent de coelo , Ecclesia non apparebit , impijs vltra modum saeuientibus : The Church is Sunne , Moone , and Starres : when the Sunne shall be darkned , and the Moone shall not giue her light , and the Starres shall fall from heauen , the Church shall not appeare , the wicked raging against her without all measure . Mee thinks I heare our aduersaries say , What makes this obseruation for the Protestant Church or faith ? I answer , Much euery way . It furnisheth vs both with a strong defensiue weapon , and offensiue also . The defensiue may be thus framed :

That Church which hath beene persecuted , massacred , wasted , and driuen to great extremity , and reduced to a small number , resembleth the true Church , as the state thereof is described in her later Ages .

But the Protestant Church , especially since the 1000 yeere after Christ , hath beene persecuted , massacred , wasted , and driuen to great extremity , and reduced to a small number :

Therefore the Protestant Church in this respect resembleth the true Church ; and consequently her obscurity maketh rather for her , then against her .

We may also on this Anuil shape an offensiue weapon in this manner :

The true Church , in the later Ages thereof , must be in great distresse , and driuen to a narrow compasse .

The Popish Church hath not beene so :

Therefore the Popish Church is not the true Church .

For they make eminent Visibility and splendour , a note of their Church . If they answer , that their Church , vnder heathen and Arrian Emperors , hath beene grieuously persecuted , I reply :

First , that those who suffered Martyrdome in those daies , were rather our Martyrs then , theirs , because they sealed with their bloud , the truth of Scripture-Doctrine , and not of Popish traditions , or additions .

Secondly , those blessed Martyrs suffered in the first Ages of the Church , long before the 1000 yeere , in which Satan was let loose : but wee speake of the persecutions of the true Church in her latter Ages . Therefore when the Papists insultingly demand of vs , Where appeared your Church in the Ages before Luther ? the best way to represse their insolency , is , to put a crosse interrogatorie to them , Where did your Church lie hid ? When did it fly into the Wildernesse , for the space of 1260 dayes ? When did the Beast with seuuen heads , and tenne hornes , push at it ? In the raigne of what Popes did the red Dragon cast a flood of waters to drowne her ? As for the predecessors of our faith , and Standard-bearers of our Religion , it appeareth vpon their owne records , how the Whore of Babylon embrued her hands , and died her garments scarlet-red in the blood of them , persecuting and executing them vnder the names of Berengarians , Lyonists , Henricians , Petrobrusians , Albingenses , Waldenses , Wickleuists , Thaborites , Hussites , Lutherans , Caluinists , and Hugonots , and the like . Heere see the craft of Satan , and malice of Antichrist and his Ministers : they was●e the flock of Christ with bloudy slaughters , and require of vs , Where are those of our brethren whom they haue slaine ? They traduce vs for paucity , whom they by their massacres haue brought to so small a number . They vpbraid vs with those maymes , and skarres which themselues haue giuen vs , and put vs to produce those euidences which themselues haue burned and made away , as shall appeare more at large hereafter .

The ninth Assertion .

Errors in doctrine , and abuses in practice , for the most part steale in secretly , and by degrees , sensim sine sensu , and are therefore seldome discerned , and openly opposed , before they get head and strength . This * * Vincent . Lyran. de 〈◊〉 . c. 15. obseruation I owe to Vincentius Lyranensis . L●tenter superinducunt errores , quos nec cito deprehendere valeas , nec facilè damnare : they bring in errors secretly , which a man cannot soone finde out , nor easily condemne . And Vincentius seemeth to haue borrowed it of * * Tertul. aduersus Vale●tin . c. 1. Tertullian , Nihil magis curant , qu●m vt occultent quod praedicant , sitamen praedicant quod occultant : they seeke nothing more , then to hide that which they preach , if yet they may bee said to preach that they hide . And againe , * * c. 3. Obscondit se Serpens quantum potest totamque prudentiam in laqueorum ambagibus torquet : alte habitat , in 〈◊〉 detruditur , per a●fractus seriem suam 〈…〉 procedit , nec semel totus 〈◊〉 bestia . The Serpent hides himselfe as much as hee can , and sheweth his chiefe skill in wreathing himselfe into foulds , hee thrusts himselfe into darke and blind holes , &c. This * * 2. Pet. 2. 1. note Tertullian took from Saint Peter : There shall bee false teachers among you ▪ who shall priuily bring in damnable heresies . And Saint Peter himselfe might gather it from our Sauiours words , * * Mat. 13. 25. Whil'st men slept , the enemy came , and so●ed tares . And therefore Bellarmine , and Ca●pi●n , and M. Fisher , doe but dreame , when they conceiue that the enemy hath not sowne the tares of heresies , and superstitions , in the Church of Rome , because ( as they suppose ) that we cannot shew the precise time when all these tares were sowne . For , our Sauiour makes answer to this question ( Vnde zizania ? Whence were these 〈◊〉 ? ) for vs , They were sowne whilst men slept . Changes and alterations are of two sorts : some are violent , and sudden , and with a great noise ; others are made by degrees , and come in piece-meale , and without any sound at all . In the former kinde it is no matter of difficulty , out of stories to shew the precise time , when such great and sudden alterations befell in Church or Common-wealth : but in the latter kinde it is very difficult , and for the most part impossible . When a great tree beeing torne by a tempest , ingentem traxit 〈◊〉 ruinam , euery man obserueth it : but who can tell when a great and thick timber-tree beginneth first to rotte ? The Historians precisely set down the yeer and day , wherein the Temple of Diana was burned by Herasastratus , and Saint Paul's Steeple in London by lightning : but who can out of any Story , or otherwise , designe the day , or yeere , when Paul's Church beganne to decay ? yet no man that now seeth it , maketh question , but that it is very much ruined : the beame out of the timber , and stone out of the wall , cry for speedy reparations . By the Iesuites argument , an aged decrepid man , all gray-headed , might forsweare and out-face his Age , because no man , nor perhaps himselfe obserued when hee beganne to grow old first , or had his first gray haire on his head or beard . Our Sauiour very fitly compares heresies to tares , which wee see when they are growne , though wee see them not in their first growth , or as they grow . No man can perceiue the index in a Watch , or finger in a Diall to wagge or stirre : yet hee that going abroad , when it points to one a clock , and returning home , findeth it points to six , or twelue a clock , knoweth infallibly , that it hath mooued , and that no small space . In like maner , though wee cannot , in all particular points of difference betweene vs and the Church of Rome , designe the moment of time , when corruptions and innouations stole in : yet finding the doctrine and manners of the Church at one point ( as it were ) in the Primitiue times , and in latter Ages at a farre distant point , nay quite opposite ; wee know , that the finger hath mooued , that is , that great changes , and alterations , and innouations haue beene . Shall wee deny , that there is idolatry in the world , because wee know not who was the first Idolater ; nor precisely , when men first fell from true Religion ? Bellarmine and some others fetch it from some of Noah's posterity after the flood : but * * Haerm●n Luangel . Barradus endeuoreth to prooue , that the tares of idolatry were sowne in the world before the flood , yet it appeares on no record , who was the first Idolater in the world . Some of Noah's posterity degenerated from the true worship & seruice of God , to Gentilism and superstition ; yet who can demonstrate the time when , or the place where they first began to adulterate the true seruice of God , with infinite abuses and abominations ? How did the Scribes and Pharises , at the comming of Christ , corrupt the doctrine of the Law with false glosses , and abrogate it with their owne traditions ? Yet no man can shew the originall or first deuiser of all their false glosses and vaine traditions . To come neerer to our aduersaries : The Fathers in the * * Sess. vigess . 2. caenone 9. decretum de obseru●ndis et euitandis in celebratione Missa . Councell of Trent acknowledge , that many corruptions & abuses haue crept into the Masse it self , eyther by the fault of times , or negligence and wickednesse of men . Cùm multaiam , siue temporum vitio , siue hominum incuria et improbitat● , irrepsisse videantur , quae à tanti Sacrificij dignitate abhorreant , &c. Sith many things , through the fault of times , or the negligence and wickednesse of men , haue seemed to haue crept in ( to the Masse ) which are repugnant to the dignity of so great a Sacrifice , wee appoint , &c. Yet when these abuses crept in , and by whose fault , neither doe they there , neither can any Papist punctually demonstrate . The Physicians iudge of their patients two manner of waies ; eyther à decubitu , that is , from the time of their lying downe , and yeelding themselues to their bed ; or ab actionibus lasis , that is , from the time that their appetites , and disgestion , and other faculties , sensibly faile in dooing their functions . In like manner are we to iudge of the diseases of the Church : some wee may àdecubitu , from her apparant declining in iudgement to error : but other , which we cannot so iudge certainely of , yet wee may most infallibly by the other meanes , ab actionibus lasis , from her sensible failings in her vitall faculties and functions , viz. Preaching of the Word , Administration of the Sacraments , and exercise of Ecclesiasticall discipline . To cloze vp this note ; Though many learned Protestant Diuines haue wrote to good purpose touching the first leake in Peters ship , yet none seemeth to mee to hit the point more fully , then our excellently learned Rainolds . * * Rainol . praelect. 1. de libris Apo●ryp●●is . Primò ait , Gentilitios , deinde Iudaicos ritus , opiniones , concupiscentias ingruisse , ea quasi semina● exemplorum et placitorum fuisse , haec primùm per exig●a non internosci , inter dum conspici , et coerceri , p●st sensim augescere magis magisque , tum confirmari et grassari latiùs ; donec ad extremum , Religionis facies tota , quasi cancro exaesae , immutata & Ecclesia Romana ex sancta et fideli profana et perfid● facta est . Ita quae Apostolis Ecclesiam docentibus erant inandita , ea pòst à patribus caepere queri , ambigi . Quae priscis 〈◊〉 scrupulum m●heba●● , ea probabilia visa sunt 〈◊〉 à rece●ioribus Scholasticis et Canonistis habebantur●●ra . Quae illi opinati sunt et tennerunt , ●odie 〈◊〉 defendunt pertinaciter , et dissentientes 〈◊〉 First , Heathenish , and then Iewish rites and opinions stole in : these were the seedes of ill examples and orders , or customes : these , at the first beeing small , were not obserued ; sometimes they were spied , and checked . Afterwards , by degrees , they more and more increased , then were they confirmed and spred further ; till in the end the whole face of Religion was eaten out , as it were with a Canker ; and the Church of Rome , 〈◊〉 and faithfull spouse , became a profane and disloyall strumpet . So those things , which in the Apostles time were vnheard of , after beganne to bee questioned and doubted by the Fathers ▪ Those things which the an●ient Doctors made scruple of , seemed probable to some , and were held true by the later School-men & Canonists . Those things which they held but as opinions , the Papists at this day defend obstinately , and condemne all that dissent from them . Iust as Velleius * * Velleius Pater . histor. Rom. l. 2. Paterculus reports of the Romane State ; that , degenerating from the antient vertue and glory , it fell maturè à rectis in vitia , à vitijs in prana , pr●uis in praecipitia ; from good to bad , from bad to worse , from worse to worst of all : so the Roman Church , in tract of time , fell from certain truths , to doubtfull Tenets ; from doubtfull Tenets , 〈◊〉 manifest errors ; from manifest errors , at last to heresies : where we now finde them , and there leaue them , because they are resolued there to stick .

The generall Conclusion .

The Protestant Church , according to the distinctions and Assertions premised , hath beene in all Ages in some degree visible .

Thus much of the first Question propounded by the Iesuite , touching the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages .

The second Question touching the Catalogue of names , follows .

Touching the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages . The second Question .

WHether visible Protestants are to bee named in all Ages out of good Authors ?

To this Question I answer , as to the former , by Distinctions . Assertions .

The first Distinction .

Visible Protestants are either ,

Such as subscribe to the harmony of Protestant Confessions , in each point of faith and Theologicall Conclusion ;

Or such as haue deliuered , either implicitly , or explicitly , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , positiuely , or 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , by way of opposition , some point or points of Protestant Doctrine ; especially , if it cannot be proued , that they held any doctrine de fide , repugnant to the Protestants faith , or different from them in any point of moment , or very materiall , much lesse fundamentall .

In this Question , neither is it reasonable , neither indeed doth the Iesuite demand , that wee should prooue visible Protestants in all Ages in the first sense , but in the later onely . His words are , * * c. 1. p. 11. For auoiding of all mis-taking , and consequently , needlesse and fruitlesse Disputes , M. Fisher in his Question requireth , first , that names of men in all Ages be set down : whom Sir Humphrey Linde and his friends conceiue to haue been Protestants . Secondly , that those men , whose names they set downe , bee shewed out of good Authors , to agree in houlding some points of faith , in which Protestants differ from Roman Catholiques . Thirdly , that Sir Humphrey Linde or his friends will defend against M. Fisher , that the same men held no other points of faith different one from another , and from the present Protestant Doctrine .

The second Distinction .

The Names of Protestants are of two sorts ;

Proper ; as , Bertram , Lollard , Dulcinus , Caluin , Beza , Iewell , &c.

Appellatiue ; as , Protestants , Gospellers , Reformers , Albingenses , Waldenses , Lionists , Piccards , Turlepins ; and generally , all such names as haue either been assumed by any society of Protestants , to distinguish themselues from others ; or cast vpon them by way of reproach , by their Aduersaries whose reproaches they ( and wee ) accounted their glory .

In this Question , although the Iesuite seemeth to take Names in the first sense , yet he cannot be so grossely ignorant , as not to knowe , that it is aboundantly sufficient for the proof of a visible Church ( euen à posteriori ) to proue out of good Authors the appellatiue Names of Protestants in all Ages . No man doubteth , that it is a sufficient Argument to prooue the Visibility of the true Church in Israel in Elias time , to produce that sacred Record of seuen thousand that neuer bowed their knees to Baal ; albeit neither doth the Spirit of God there set down , neither can any man liuing now tell what was the proper name of any one of them . No Geographer will euer make question , but that there are now many visible Churches of Christians in Africa , and diuerse parts of Asia , vnder the Turk and Tartar , knowne by the names of Abyssens , Maronits , Cophti , Armenians , Georgians , or the like : and yet neither can the Geographers themselues peraduenture , nor you nor I presently giue the proper name of any one of them . For my part , I know but one Greek Christian , sometime Student in Oxford ; Metrophanes Critopulus .

The third Distinction .

These words , Protestants are to be named , may admit of a double construction ;

Either that names ought to be produced , and that we are bound to produce them , to proue the Visibility of our Church ; as if , without such producing , the protestant cause shold any way suffer or receiue any prejudice Or that such names may bee produced , and that there are such Records yet extant , out of which wee are able to makes a Catalogue of Protestant professors .

In this question , the Iesuite holdeth , that the names of Protestants in the first sense are to bee produced , that is , ought to bee produced , and must of necessitie , to proue the visibility of our Church : but hee denieth it in the second sense , that is , that such names can bee produced . On the contrary , my Tenets are , that Visible Protestants are to bee named in the second sense , that is , are ●minable ; but not in the first sense . Though wee need not make any such Catalogue , yet ex superabundanti , I refuse not to doe it : our cause is so richly furnished , that wee can do it though wee are not bound to do it , for the reasons partly alledged in the conference , partly confirmed and enlarged in the defence thereof .

The fourth Distnction .

Good Authors are of two sorts ;

Of the first rank : and such are Classicke , Theological or Historical Authors ; against which neither Papists nor Protestants much except , but both account them of great worth and credit .

Of the second ranke : and such are those Authors , who though they are not of any singular or eminent note , yet they may bee tearmed good , according to the ages in which they liued , which afforded no better .

In this question , I restrain not good Authors to those of the first rank only , but admit also of those of the second . For , as when the people at * * Bodin . de rep. ex Liuio . Capua were so incensed against the Senatours , that they had a purpose presently to doffe them out of their places and liues too ; a wise man among them aduised them , before they put the ould Senatours to the sword , to thinke of fitter men to put in their places : which when they could not agree vpon , in the end it was resolued , that the ould should continue : In like manner , if the Iesuites except against any of the Authors which I shall alledge in the later blinde ages , as being not of sufficient credit for vs to relie vpon in so weightie a controuersie , as the Iesuites make this to bee ; I require of the Iesuites , to produce fitter men , & better Authors , who liued in those times ; & in case they cannot , then to let those stand for good whom wee alledge for our selues : for wee are to take Authors and Records such as we can finde , not to make such as wee wish . And therefore Scaliger , as truly as tartly , reproueth Baronius , quod Annales faceret , non scriberet , that he wrote not Annales , but made them out of his owne braine . A true Record , though neuer so foule-written and torne , is better then a forged Deed , though neuer so faire and legible . Some later Papists , excepting against diuers Authors alledged by vs , shall not disable those Authors , vnlesse they can make good their exceptions against them . For example : though Genebrard , or Coccius , or 〈…〉 disgracefully of Abbas V●spergensis , or 〈…〉 C●rdinalis , or Platina , or Auentinus , yet vnless they can or could iustly tax or charge them , they must and shall stand for good witnesses against Papists . These cautions and distinctions premised , I will now set downe the state of this second question , in the Assertions following .

The first Assertion .

AMong the Professors of the Truth , there may be differences of iudgement ; not onely touching rites , and ceremonies , and matters of discipline , but also touching points of doctrine , so the points be not main and fundamentall , or such as are cleerly ●nd expressely defined by the Church out of manifest Te●ts of Scripture . This conclusion I ground on those words of Saint Paul : c c 1. Cor. 3. 12. 15 , &c. If any man build on this Foundation , gold , &c. or hay and stubble , &c. if any mans work shall be burnt , he shall suffer losse , but hee himself shall be saued , &c. To this distinction of Foundations-doctrine , without which a man cannot be saued ; and doctrines built vpon the Foundation , which may be held , or not held , without danger of saluation , Saint Ambrose alludes : d d Comment. in Luc. lib. 5. c. 9. Si quae est Ecclesiae , quae fidem respuat , nec Apostolicae praedicationis fundamenta retine at , ne quam labem possit aspergere , deserenda est . If there be any Church which refuseth faith , and ●eepeth not the foundation of Apostolicall doctrine , lest it should cast any spot on vs , it must bee forsaken . And Saint e e Prosp. de grat . et lib. arbitri . ad Ruffinum . Pelagiana haeresis quibus impietatum veneris viscera Ecclesiae atque ipsa vitalia Corpris Christi voluerit occupare , &c. Prosper ; where hee insinuates a distinction of heresies . Some like the Pelagian , poisoning the bowels , and surprising the very vitals of Christs ( mysticall ) Body ; others affecting and infecting other parts further from the heart , and therefore not so dangerous . * * Aduers . haer . Vincentius Lyrinensis glanceth at the former distinction of doctrines fundamentall , and not fundamentall . The former he calleth , Fidei regula●● , the rule of faith ; the later , Diuinae Legis quaestiunculas , subtill questions concerning the Law of God : in which , he saith , we need not much seek the Fathers consent . Saint * * Lib. 1. contra Iul. Pelag. c. 6. Austen also , when he was pressed by Iulian the Pelagian with a testimony out of Saint Chrysostome , laieth hold on the buckler of a like distinction : Sanctus , inquit , Iohannes Constantinopolitanus negat , esse in paruulis originale peccatum : Holy , saith he , Iohn of Constantinople denieth , that originall sinne is in little children . Absit , vt Constantinopolitanus Iohannes de baptismate parvulorum , eorumque à chirographo liberatione per Christum , tot ac tantis co-Episcopis suis , maximeque Romano Innocentio , Carthaginensi Cypriano , Cappadoci Basilio , Gregorio Nazianzeno , Gallo Hilario , Mediolanensi resistat Ambrosio . Alia sunt in quibus inter se aliquando etiam doctissimi atque optimi regulae catholicae defensores ( salua fidei compage ) non consonant : & alius aliò , vna de re , meliùs aliquid dicit & veriùs . Hoc autem , de quo nunc agimus , ad ipsa fidei pertinet fundamenta : GOD forbid , that Iohn of Constantinople concerning the baptism of little or yong children , and their freedom by Christ from the hand-writing , should gain-stand so many and so worthy of his fellow-Bishops ; especially , Innocent , Bishop of Rome , Cyprian of Carthage , Basil of Cappadocia , Gregorie of Nazianzen Hilarie of France , and Ambrose of Millain . Some things there are , in which the most learned , and best defenders of the catholique rule ( the bond of faith preserued ) do somtimes not agree among themselues : and one , in some one thing , saith somewhat better and righter than another . But this , wherein now we deal , belongeth to the very grounds of faith .

Vnlesse we admit of such a distinction , neither we , nor the Romane Church , nor the Greek , nor any Church now in Christendome , is able to produce a Catalogue of visible Professors of their faith in any antient Age , much lesse in all Ages . And therefore , if M. Fisher and his fellow-Iesuites require of a true Church , a Catalogue of such Professors as in all Ages held , not onely the same fundamentall and principall points of faith , but also all the same doctrinall conclusions and particular deductions , I must aduise him , in the words of Constantine the Great , spoken to Nouatus , to make a ladder , and go vp to heauen alone . As the Fathers differ from vs in some things , so also they differ among themselues : yet , as they esteemed themselues ( notwithstanding these differences ) to be members of the same Catholick Church ; so doo we esteem the said Fathers , professors of our Protestant Doctrine . Our Aduersaries lay claim to them also ; and yet they cannot deny , but that the Fathers dissent from them in some points of no small moment . Papias , the scholar of Saint Iohn the Euangelist , did eat the sowre grape of the Millenarie Error : and Iustin Martyr , Iraeneus , Lactantius , and the Fathers generally ( before Saint Ierome's time ) , had their teeth set on edge therewith . * * Ioseph . Scal. Notae in nouum Testamentum . Scaliger , well seen in Antiquity , obserues , Omnes veteres Christianos , etiam infra aetatem Augustini , putâsse , animas tam piorum quàm impiorum in centro terrae , tanquam quodam conceptaculo , expectare diem iudicij : quod Tertullianus eleganer dixit , In candidâ expectare diem iudicij . Praerogatiuam tamen dant Martyribus , quos vno saltu recta in Paradisum deferri volunt : All the antient Christians , yea , euen * * or within . before the time of Saint Augustine , thought , the soules aswell of the godly as vngodly , in the centre of the earth , as it were in some receptacle , to expect the day of iudgement : which Tertullian elegantly calls , * * Allud . ad Ro. Magistr. qui candidati , &c. In candidâ to look for the day of iudgement . Yet they yeeld a prerogatiue to the Martyrs , whom they will haue to bee carried directly into Paradise at one leap or jump . Dooth your Church approoue of this opinion ? Saint * * Lib. 2. Ep. 3. Siquis de Antecessoribus nostris vel ignor anter , vel simpliciter , non hoc obseruauit & tenuit , quod nos dominus docuit , &c. potest simpliciter eius per indulgentiam domini venia concedi , &c. Cyprian findeth great fault with those , who before his time administred the Sacrament without wine , vsing water in stead of it : If any of our Ancestors , either ignorantly , or simply , hath not obserued and kept that which our Lord hath taught vs , &c. through our Lords indulgency , pardon may bee granted to his simplicity . This he proueth to be a grosse error , and a foule abuse ; yet he excludeth not them who are tainted with this spot , from hope of saluation . And Saint Cyprian himself had reason to censure charitably an errour in others , because himself needed at least a pardon of course for his opinion touching re-baptizing : for , his zeal against Hereticks transported him so farre , that he rejected and disannulled Baptisme administred by them : whereby he may seem to touch dangerously vpon the rock of the Donatists heresie : yet Saint * * Lib. 1. contra Donatistas . c. 18 Quid ergo ? ille vir sanctus de Baptismo aliter sentiens quam se res habebas , quae posteae pertractata & diligentissima consideratione firmatae est , in catholicae vnitate permansit , & charitatis vbertate compensatum est , & pas●ionis fasce purgatum . Austen doubteth not to affirm , that he made a recompence for this his errour , by the aboundance of his charity in his life , and plentifull effusion of his bloud for the testimony of Christ at his death . As it was said of Augustus ; b b Tacit. annal. Pompeij statuas erigendo , suas confirmauit ; that by erecting Pompey's statues , hee made his owne stand the longer : so we may truely say , that Saint Austen , by framing the former Apology for Cyprian , made the easier way in the mindes of all indifferently-affected , for his owne defence . I would , that this most judicious Doctor of the Church ( for whom all the Christian Churches striue ; as the Greek Cities , for Homer ) nihil quicquam humani pateretur . But I haue learned from * * Lyrinen . aduersus h●res . Vincentius , Nuditatem reuerendi patris nèque meis temerare oculis , neque alienis patere velle , sed auersum tegere ; quod est erratum sancti viri , nec approbâsse , nec prodidisse . All that I haue already intimated , rather than expressed in this kinde , is to shew , that euery prick is not a wound ; euery spot , not a s●ain in an ancient Writer ; that euery difference in judgement , makes not a rent in the Church ; and consequently , that although Waldo , or Wicklef , or Husse , or any other fore-runner of Luther's reformation in our daies , might haue some priuate differences between themselues , and from vs , as the ancient Doctors had , yet that these discords hinder not , but that they and wee may beare a part in some concent and harmony of belief on earth , and sing the same Halleluiah in heauen . As for those foule aspersions of Sorcery , Manichisme , maintenance of impurity , and subiecting God to the diuell , and the like , laid vpon the Waldenses and Albingenses , Wicklef and the Hussi●es , or any of them , we shall easily blowe them away , euen by the breath of our Aduersaries , in the declaration of the next conclusion .

The second Assertion .

The Professors of the truth haue had alwaies false scandals laid vpon their faith and life . Our blessed Redeemers most holy Doctrine and sanctified life , escaped not the slanders of malicious tongues set on fire of hell . Saint Stephen was traduced for a a Acts 6. 11 blasphemie against God and Moses ; Saint Paul , for b b Acts 24. 14 Heresie . I tremble to rehearse what malice hath broached against the Saints and Martyrs in the Primitiue Church ; as that c c Minutius Felix in Octauio . Audi● eos turpiss●i pecudis caput asini consecratum , ineptae nescio qua persuasione venerari , &c. they worshipped an Asse head , et antistitum suorum genitalia , that they murthered d d Tert. apolog. c. 7. Dicimur sceleratissimi de sacramento infanticidij , & pabulo inde , & post conuiuium incesto , quod euersores luminum canes , lenone se tenebrarum , & l bidinum impiarum inuerecundia procuren● . Infants , and sed vpon their flesh , and licked their bloud ; that , putting out the lights , they committed incest , and all manner of filthinesse , one with another . Let Rubius , and Parsons , and Sander●● , and Coccius , and Cocleus , and B●lsack , rid the bottom of their rancorous stomack against Walde , & Wiclef , and Hus , and Luther , and Caluin : they cannot voyd worse matter of fiction , then such as the Heathen vented against the Primitiue Christians . But as God , in former times , vsed the tongue of Pliny , and diuers other Gentiles , to licke out those blots which were cast on the Christians by Gentiles : so , in these later times also , hath God made the tongues of Papists themselues to serue as spunges , to wipe away Popish aspersions vpon the aboue-named Professors of truth , For the 9. Articles obiected in particular to the Waldenses by Antoninus , Prateolus , Lutzenburgius , & Parson ; Doctor * * Lib. de success . et statu eccles. c. 6. à paragraph vicess . ad sinem . Vsher , now Lord Bishop of Methe , hath so cleared them , euen by the testimonies of Papists , from those erronious assertions and scandalous aspersions , that the Papists themselues seeme to be ashamed of their shameless slander● . It shall suffice , for the strengthning of my former conclusion , to call in three or foure Papists of note , for their purgation : they are Du Hallyan , Rainerius , Thuanus , and Cocleus . Hallyan speakes but lispingly , because he durst not speake plaine , yet hee saith enough to conuince the enemies of the truth , of shamefull calumniation . * * Hist. Gal. l. 10. The principall point , saith he , which brought the Waldenses into vniuersall hatred , and which charged them with more euill opinions then they had , was the libertie they tooke to blame the diss●lutenes of Princes and of the Clergie , yea to tax the Popes themselues : this was the Helena that wrought all their troubles , as * * Contra Wald. c : 4. Magnam habet spec●m pietatis , eo quod coram homi ibus iuste vt 〈◊〉 , & b●ne omnia de Deo credunt , & omnes articulos qui in Symbolo con●ine●tur . Rainerius the Inquisitor ingenuously confesseth : This sect hath a great shew of godlinesse , because they liue iustly before men , and beleeue all things well concerning God , and all the articles contained in the Creed : solummodò Romanam Ecclesiam blasphemant et Clerum ; onely they speake euill of the Church of Rome and of the clergie . a a Lib. 6. Thuanus , after hee had set downe truly the opinions of the Waldenses , wherein they concurre with the Reformed Churches at this day , addeth , His praecipuis et certis eorum doctrinae capitibus , alia afflict a sunt de coniugio , resurectione , animarum statu post mortem , &c. To these especiall and certaine heads of their doctrine , there are other added concerning wedlock , the resurrection , the state of soules after death , &c. Neuer did any mans stomacke more boyle with rancor and malice against any , then Cocleus his against Wiclef ; whom b b Hist. Hussit . l. 2. Multo grau●orae esse credider●m Wiclefi tormenta , quam sunt apud inferos Iudae proditoris , vel Neronis , &c. hee condemneth to greater torments in hell , then Iudas or Nero : yet the truth extorted from Cocleus himselfe so much , as ( in the iudgement of any indifferent man ) may cleare him and his scholer Hus from those erroneous Articles that were laid to Hus his charge . c c Cocl . ibid. En isti Episcopi hortantur me ad reuocandum & abiurandum quod ego facere horresco , m●tuens ne in conspectu Dei ●●am mendax , & laedam conse●en●iam meam . Et post , page 111. Protestabatur , se ad mortem du●i propter errores ●●bi falso imputatos a falfis testibus . When hee was required by the Bishops , to abiure the doctrine hee had taught , he refused so to do , lest he should wound his conscience and the truth of God ; but withall protesteth , and that solemnly , and that three seuerall times , and that at the instant of his death , that hee neuer held any of those Articles which the false witnesses deposed against him , but held , and taught , and wr●te alwaies the contrary . In a word , hee breathed out his last gaspe , with a complaint against his false accusers , for laying to his charge doctrines hee neuer held ; taking it vpon his death , that hee taught nothing but the truth of the Gospel , which he would now seale with his bloud . Hee had no sooner thus cleared his innocencie , but his enemies set fire on the ●agot , and burnt the Saint of God to ashes . And shall wee imagine , that Wiclef , with whom Iohn Hus praied , that his soule might bee after death , whose picture Ierome of Prague had in his studie , painted with a garland about it ; and the Vniuersitie of Oxford crowned his person and doctrine with a more fragrant Garland of praises ; whose doctrine was not onely fauoured by diuers Nobles , but also the * * Vid. M. S. Wiclef . in Biblio them , Bodl●i , &c third part of the Clergie of England : I say , shall wee so much wrong our iudgements , to imagine , that a man of so rare learning both diuine and humane , so excellently read in Scriptures , should bee the Father of such monstrous bastardly opinions , as are fathered vpon him by some of the Fathers in the Councell of Constance , viz. * * God is bound to obey the diuell . Deus tenetur obedire diab●lo , and the like ? No , no. That diuel was a lying spirit in the mouth of his accusers , which afterwards possessed the Romish Priests and Iesuits , and by them vented these prodigious slanders vpon our doctrine ; affirming , that wee teach , b b Cam. rat. 8 Deus est author & causa peccati , omnia peccatae paria , Christus desperationis vocem emisit . that God is the author of sin ; and that all sinnes are equall in Gods sight ; that a man may lie for Gods honour ; * * Bristow mot . that Protestants are bound to auoid all good workes , and many the like Assertions , much more condemned , and substantially refuted by Protestants , then any Papists whatsoeuer .

The * * Lact. diuin. institut. l. 1. c. 21 Apud Lindum Herculis s●cra sunt , quorum a ca●ter is longe diuersus est ritus , siquidem non euphemia s●d maledictione & execration . ●us celebrantur . Lyndians , as Lactantius reporteth , worshipped God by execrations and maledictions . Lyndanus and other of our Papists , as it seemeth , are akin to them : they think , they doo God good seruice , in blaspheming and scandalizing the truth of God , and the professors thereof . The best is , illi linguarum , nos ●urium Domini sumus : their tongues are their owne ; so our eares are our owne : they are masters of their speech ; we , of our beliefe : they may speake what they list ; but wee are not bound to beleeue , but what wee see proofe and reason for .

The third Assertion .

God hath , and alwaies had , many true seruants and worshippers of him in secret ; whose names cannot bee produced nor rehearsed by an exact Catalogue . I suppose , no Papist wil deny this conclusion , because it is grounded on the Oracle of God . When * * 1 Kings 19 14. & 18 Eliah complained , The children of Israel haue forsaken thy Couenant , throwne down thine Altars , and slain thy Prophets with the sword ; and I , euen lonely , am left , &c. the Oracle answereth , Yet I haue reserued to my self seuen thousand in Israel , &c. Such were they that sighed for all the abominations that were in Ierusalem : vpon whose fore-head , God commanded a * * Ezek. 9. 4 marke to bee set . Such were those , who though they remained most of them in the outward communion with the Church of Rome , yet groned vnder that Babylonish yoke , and in heart abhorred the idolatrie and superstition raigning in that Church ; and they desired , with sighes and teares , a reformation before Luther . Of whom , * * De refor . eccl. Petrus de Aliaco the Cardinall thus writeth : As there were seuen thousand that had not bowed to Baal : so it is to bee hoped , that there are some that desire the Churches reformation . Though * * Rain . contrae Wald. c. 3. Inquisitioni haereticorum frequ●nter interful , & computatae sunt scholae in diocaesi Paetauiensi 41. Rainerius speak but of one and fortie schools , and somewhat a lesser number of Churches of the Waldenses , yet no man will make question , but that there might bee in all the world very many more ; especially , ●ith all those Churches and Schools hee speaketh of , were in one Diocesse . When * * L. 4. Petierunt castellum cui Bechnigne nom●e est , vt a●t Arneus , ●ctauo f●re milliario ab oppido quo● nunc Tabor , &c. C●rciter trigmta ●illia hom●num conue●e●unt , atque ibi trecentas mensas in pat●ntibus camp●s erexerunt , ex quibus Sacramentum Caluini administrarunt . Cocleus mentioneth thirtie thousand who , at the Castle of Bechnigne , eight miles from Tabor , receiued the Communion vnder both kindes , maugre the decree of the Councel of Constance : will any man doubt , but there were many thousands more , who receiued the Sacrament in like manner at other places ? When * * ● . 10. D● Hallyan reports , that the armie of the Albingenses consisted of about the number of 100 thousand fighting men ; euerie mans discretion will adde , that there must needs bee among them a greater number of all sorts , old men , women , and children , which were not able to beare Arms. And therefore d d Rerum Angl. l. 2. c. 13. In latissim●s Gaelliae , Hispaniae , Italiae , Germaniae prouincijs tam multi infecti hac pes●e esse dicuntur , vt multiplicati esse supra numerum maeris videantur . Gulielmus Neubrigensis speaking of them , saith , that their number in France , Sapin , Italy , and Germany , was multiplied aboue the sand of the sea : Rainerius the Popish Inquisitors own words amount to neere as much , e e Contra Wald. c. 4. Haec secta generalior est omnibus alijs quae adhuc sunt vel fuerunt : This sect is the most generall or farthest spred of all sects that euer were : fere enim nulla est terra in qua haec secta non sit : for there is almost no sect in all the world , in which this sect hath not a part . I conclude therfore this Assertion with the words of f f Epist. 78. Synesius , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : What need we Catalogues ? we are to fight with hands , not with names .

The fourth Assertion .

Some Ages of the Church afford very few Authors of note , whose Writings haue come to posterity . Whosoeuer peruseth the Church story , digested into Centuries or Annales , or cast but a glance of his eye vpon the Catalogues of Writers made by Saint Ierom , Suidas , Photius , Gennadius , Abbas , Tritemius , Illyricus , and Bale , shall finde the Ages of the Church , to resemble the Starres of the skie . In some parts wee see many glorious and eminent Stars ; in others , few of any remarkable greatnesse ; and in some , none but blinkards and obscure ones : In like manner , in some Ages of the Church , we may behold many worthy and glorious Lights , like Starres of the first or second magnitude ; in others , few of any note or bright luster ; and in some , none but obscure and vnknowne Authors ; resembling the least and obscurest Starres in the skie . After we haue passed the eightth Age of the Church , wee fall into Cimaerian darknesse . * * Lib. 4. de Rom. pontif . c. 12. Bellarmine cannot speake of the ninth Age with patience , Saeculo hoc nullum extitit indoctius aut infelicius , quo qui Mathematica aut Philosophiae operam dabat , vulgò Magus putabatur . Then this Age , there was none more vnlearned or vnhappie ; in which , whosoeuer studied the Mathematicks or Philosophy , hee was commonly accounted a Magician . * * ●unead 9. Mirum est , quanta omnium bonarum artium obliuio per id tempus mortaelium aenimos obrepserit , vt ne in pontificibus quidem v●●isue principibus quicquid illu●eret quod vitam i●uare possit . Sabellieus is at a stand in admiring at the palpable Egyptian darknesse of this Age. It is wonderfull to consider how great forgetfulnesse of all good Arts , during this time , did steale vpon mens mindes . So that there was no light of knowledge found , either in the Popes or Bishops , or any other Princes , which might further life . * * Genebrard . Chronol. lib. 4. Genebrard , after a sort , blesseth himselfe from this Age ▪ Infelix dicitur hoc saeculum exhaustumb●minibus doctrina & ingenio claris , sine etiam claris principibus & pontificibus . This is called an vnhappy Age , empty of men , famous in learning and wit , yea , without famous Princes or Popes . Nay , what the Physicians speak of slegme , It is an humor , ne ad ma●la quidem bonus , not good for any thing , no ; not to nourish and prouoke to vice ; so it may bee said of this Age , that it yeelded no eminent men , Catholiques or Hereticks . And therefore you shall finde in Prae●●olus his Catalogue of Sectaries , a great baulk in this Age. And * * S. N. Appendix to the Antidote . Norice a Iesuiticall Quack saluer professeth , That in this Age no new heresie beganne , and consequently , that he wanteth drugges for his Antidote . But both Prateolus , and his bold borrower Norice , are much beholding to the Magdeburgenses , who handsomly and trimly excuse the matter , saying , F●gisse Haereticos , atque in praelatos ac monachos se abdidisse ; that the Hereticks which seemed to bee flowne away ( in this Age ) , were not indeed vanished out of the world , but lay close , and hid themselues vnder Bishops Rochets , and Monkes Coules ; where neither Prateolus nor Norice durst to search for them . As this ninth Age , so the tenth , and some others after were very barren of learned Writers . And therefore no maruaile , if the haruest wee gather in these Ages , of the professors of the truth , and defenders thereof by writing , bee very thinne : for , to leaue an Armie of bastard apocryphall Authors ( as the Papists do , to maintain the Popes title ) , or in so weighty a cause to rely on the ragged regiment of Authors mustred vp , in Orthodoxographia & bibliotheca veterum , et Epistolae obscurorum virorum , &c. I hold it rather a dishonor , and disaduantage , then any credit or aduantage to the truth .

The fift Assertion .

Since Boniface the Third's time , in the seauenth Age , and much more since Hildebrand in the tenth , such was the greatnesse of the Pope , and transcendent power of the See of Rome , that few durst or might write freely against the errors and vsurpations thereof . And therefore it is not to be maruailed , that we haue not many ; but it is rather to bee maruailed , that wee haue any who haue displayed the abominations of the Whore of Babylon . The Answer of a Poet in Augustus time , is very famous ; who beeing demanded why he replied not vpon Augustus , who had writ against him a bitter Satyr , cleanly wiped his lips , and said , Periculosum est 〈◊〉 ●um scribere , qui potest proscribere : It is a dangerous thing to giue him a dash with a pen , who is like to requite it with a slash of a sword ; to obiect against him in inke , who can returne an answer in blood . * * Iuuenal Satyr . Tacit. Eorum corporae in vsum noctur●i luminis comburebantur . Pone Tigelinum , teda lucebis in illa : Qua stantes ardent , & fixo gutture fumant .

Set the Pope or Church of Rome out in her colours , and shee will make you a light of the Church , by burning you at a stake . Platina and Occham long ago , vpon iust cause and lamentable experience , cast this bloodie aspersion on the Pope and his Adherents . Occham frameth his inditement in these words : Vt intentum 〈◊〉 horrendum ad finem possint perducere , defendentes v●ritatem prosequuntur , interimunt , innoxium sang●●nem fundunt : That they may bring their horrible purpose to passe , they prosecute such as maintaine the truth , murther them , and shead their innocent bloud . Platina● in these words : 〈◊〉 mandata● Christi , quise Vicarium eius dicit , & cred●●● in verba Dei exurit : Hee condemneth the commands of Christ , who professeth and calleth himselfe his Vicar , and burneth such as beleeue in the words of God . Laurentius Valla , for writing freely against the forged donation of Constantine , lost his libertie and Countrie too . Occham was so bold to strike at the Popes triple Crowne , and to oppose some doctrines of the Church of Rome , that hee was therefore excommunicated by the Pope , and so grieuously persecuted , that he was constrained to flie to the Emperor for succour : to whom hee made this reasonable motion ; Tu defende me gladio ego defendam te calamo : Defend thou mee by thy sword or power , I will defend thee by my word or pen . Were the Waldenses and Albingenses murthered by thousands , for Heresie ? No : * * Contra Waldens . c. 4. Rainerius cleareth them of that ; Omnia rectè de Deo credunt : They beleeue all things rightly concerning God . Why then ? Solummodo Romanam Ecclesians blasphemant & Clerum . They speake euill of the Church of Rome and the Clergie . The opinions of the Albingenses , * * Histor. lib. 10. saith Hallian , did not so much stir vp the hate of the Pope and great Princes against them , as the libertie of speech did , wherewith they vsed to blame the vices and disolutenes of the said Princes and Clergie , yea to tax the vices and actions of the Popes themselues . This was the principall point that brought them into vniuersall hatred . What was it so inflamed the Pope against the Hussites , that hee proclaimed two Croisadoes , and imploied great armies against them ? Their administring the Sacrament in both kindes , maugre the sacrilegious decree of the Councell of Constance ? No. That * * Cocle. l. 7. Hist. Hussit . he could and did dispence with all . It was that article of the Hussites , gathered out of their writings by Alanus . Papaest ●estia de qua habetur in Apocalypsi , 12. Datum est ei , bellum facere cum sanctis . The Pope is the beast , whereof it is said in the 12. of the Reuelation ; It is granted to him ( the beast ) to warre with the Saints . Hincillae lachrymae . Nay rather , Hinc ille cr●or . This kindled such a fire against the deare seruants of Christ , that nothing could or did quench it , but their bloud shed in great abundance .

For some hundreds of yeeres , Assert . the chiefe Records and Monuments of the Westerne Church haue been in the hands of our Romish aduersaries , who haue partly burned them , partly corrupted them , and partly kept them from vs . And herein they deale with vs , as Theramenes * * Bodin . de repub. his Colleagues dealt with him : who hauing a purpose to question him for his life , first strooke his name out of the Catalogue of the gouernours of the Citty , and then articled against him . And when he pleaded the priuiledge of all those whose names were written in the Catalogue , they barred him from this defence , saying , That he could not plead that priuiledge , because his name was not in the Catalogue . In like manner our aduersaries take away from vs , or make away from vs our records ; and then they non-sute vs , for want of euidence . Gregorie the great wrote manie things preiudiciall to the Popes pretensions and vsurpations , and therefore Sabinianus his successor burnt diuers of his bookes , as a a Platina in Sabin . Platina intimates : and Sixtus Senens●s b b Lib. 4. Maiorem partem operum Gregori● statim post mortem eius amul● flagitiosissimi excusserunt . expresly affirmeth , That his most wicked emulators did burne the greater part of Gregories works , presently after his death . c c Auentin . annal. Boior , lib. 5. Hildebrand . in Templo Dei , sedet supra omne quod colitur , extollitur . Non solum , ad ambitionem suam occulendaem , fabulas comminiscittur , annales corrumpit , res gestas inuertit , sed etiam coelestia Oracula adulterat . Auentine brandeth Pope Hildebrand with the marke of a corrupter of Chronicles , and a razer out of them the things that were done . Cocleus d d Coc. hist. Hussit . l. 2. writeth of Hus , Dum duceretur ad locum poenae , videns in coemiterio libros suos comburi , subrisit proper eam stultitiam : While hee was led to the place of execution , seeing in the Church-yard his bookes to bee burned , hee smiled at that follie . And his smiling may seeme propheticall : for , notwithstanding all the meanes that they could possibly vse , to root him and his writings out of the memory of men ; yet both ( through Gods mercy ) are preserued ; and some few works also of Wicklef . But the great bulk of them , not much e e Cocleus lib. 1. Scripsit quidam Episcopus ex Anglia esse ●ibi adhuc bodie duo maximae Volumma , quae inde Sancti vndeantur aquare opera Augustini . inferior to the quantity of Saint Austens works , could not escape the fire , beeing so narrowly searched after by the command of diuers Popes , yea and f f Hen. 4. and Edw. 4. Kings too . If we might haue accesse to the Popes Library , we doubt not , but that wee should finde many more bookes written , both in Latine and Greek , against the Pope . This , Cope acknowledgeth in his Dialogues . As for corrupting antient Authors , and circumcising later , I referre all that desire to be satisfied in this point , to T. I. his Treatise of the corruptions , &c. as also to the Indices expurgatorij , Quiroga and Sanctouall .

The flourishing Fencer , Campian , in his first reason , termeth Protestants , difficiles Aristarch●s , 〈◊〉 arrepta virgula censoria , si quae ad stomachum 〈◊〉 faciunt obliterant . But doe not Papists more truly deserue to bee censured censorious Aristarchi ? For as Aristarchus vsed to raze out the verses of Homer , which hee liked not : so hee that hath but halfe an eie , may see , that the Romanists , in their Indices expurgatorij , blot out of all sorts of Authors , whatsoeuer liketh them no● , or any way makes against them . But wee hope , wee shall shortly haue a Vindex for their Index . And therefore , leauing the further prosecution of this point , I will now set downe my last Assertion and generall conclusion .

Notwithstanding all the difficulties aboue-mentioned , The generall Conclusion . yet God hath not left his truth , though too much opposed , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , to bee without witness in all Ages , as may appeare by the learned labors of diuers Protestants aboue * * Remonstrance , about the end . mentioned : out of whose large fields , as also mine owne particular obseruations , I haue gleaned a brief Catalogue , which may suffice to poynt out a Protestant successiue Church , from Age to Age.

The beginning of the Catalogue . For witnesses to the truth of the Doctrine wee now professe , and maintaine in the Church of England , I alledge ,

IN the first Age from Christs birth , to 100 yeeeres , CHRIST IESVS . The twelue Apostles . Saint Iohn Baptist. Saint Mark . Saint Luke . Saint Paul , with his schollers , Titus , Timothy , and the Churches planted or watered by them . Romanes , Corinthians , &c. Clemens , about the yeere 90. Ignatius , about the yeere 100. with the Churches to whom he wrote . The Tralians , Magnesians , Tarsians , Philadelphians , &c. In the second Age , from 100. to 200. Polycarpus , 140. Iustin Martyr , 150. Methodius , 155. Dionysius Corinthiacus , 158. Hegesippus , 160. Melito Sardensis , 170. Polycrates , cum Synodo Asia●●ca , 180 Saint Irenaeus , 190. Clemens Alexandrinus , 200.

These Professors of the truth ( 〈◊〉 denying others ) I alledge for the two 〈◊〉 centuries : further we proceeded not in 〈◊〉 Conference : and therefore , heere I 〈◊〉 a stop for a time , and withall a challen●● to M. Fisher , to set downe the names 〈◊〉 his supposed Papists for these two 〈◊〉 Ages , together with such poynts of 〈◊〉 Romish Religion , as he will prooue 〈◊〉 they maintained : which after hee ha●● done , I will make good my witnesses , an● disprooue his , and then proceed to 〈◊〉 succeeding Ages , euen vnto Luther , if 〈◊〉 permit . Hic rhodus , hic saltus .

Hic modus , haec nostro signabitur area curr● ▪

A defence of Doctor FEATLY his proceedings in the Conference , together with a refutation of Master FISHERS Answer ( vnder the name of A. C. ) to a Treatise intituled , The Fisher caught in his owne Net .

AS Velleius Paterculus obserues , that In the battell at Philippi , in which Brutus should haue taken Anthony to task ; and Cassius Augustus ; it fell out cleane contrary , so that Brutus met with Augustus , and Anthony marched against Cassius : So it came to passe in this present combate . D. White prepared and prouided to encounter M. Fisher , his former Antagonist ; and D. Featly was intreated as in Assistant , to deale in a second place with M. Sweet , if occasion were offered . Yet vpon a cunning trick of the Iesuite , discouered immediately before the Conference , it was then on the place of the meeting , resolued otherwise by some that were principally interessed in the businesse , that D. Featly should beginne with M. Fisher , and oppose him in the Iesuites question touching the visibility of the Protestants Church ; and D. White ( as there should bee cause ) should take off M. Sweet , if he interposed , as also answer in the contrary question propounded to the Iesuites , touching the Visibility of the Romish Church in all Ages . Thus D. Featly , who intended to be but an Assistant , contrary to his expectation , was made the principall Opponent in this Disputation . Wherin , that hee might the better manage the truthes quarrell , and satisfie his Auditory , hee set before his eies certaine rules , partly taken out of Scripture , partly out of the antient Fathers , to direct his proceedings by them .

The first rule is * * Phil. 2. 3. Saint Paul's : Let nothing bee done through strife or vaine-glory . God is not in the fire of contention , nor in the whirle-winde of passion , but in the still voice of them , who in meeknesse of spirit seeke the truth out of loue of truth it selfe , not of desire of victory . Nolunt Scriptur● ae docere nisi eos qui doceri quaerunt : The Scriptures will not instruct those , who seek not to bee instructed by them in this manner . Democritus fitly compared truth to a iewell in the bottome of a Well : Veritas in profundo dimersa . if the water bee cleere , we may easily discerne it ; but if troubled , it is impossible to see the bottome of the Well , much lesse discerne the most precious Iewel of truth lying in it . For this cause , D. Featly , in the beginning of the disputation , as is confessed by A. C. * * Page 15. earnestly besought M. Fisher to deale sincerely , as in the sight of God , setting aside all passion , and by-respects : and when M. Sweet propounded that condition , that all bitter speeches should be auoided , D. Featly with the rest , most willingly accepted of it , and commended M. Sweet for proposing of it .

The second rule is * * Naz. Apolog. 1. Nazianzens : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : It is the best order in all speech and actions , to begin and end with God . According to which prescription , D. Featly beganne with a short Prayer , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and ended partly with a * * Thanksgiuing . doxologie , adding to his instance in Christ our Lord and Sauiour , blessed for euer , at whose Name all knees must bow , both in heauen , and earth , and vnder the earth ; partly , by an holy adjuration : M. Fisher , I charge you , as you will answer before Christ at the day of Iudgement .

The third rule is * * Ha●res . 76. Epiphanius his ; who obserueth in a Disputation against the Photinians , quòd adhibiti sunt , qui vtrinque exciperent ea quae dicebantur , quae postea ab vtraque parte obsignabantur : there were appointed Notaries , who did take that which was said on both sides , and their notes afterward were signed by both parties . According to which obseruation , M. Ailsbury was chosen and accepted of as Notary on both sides , and D. Featly did set his hand to each Syllogisme , as likewise did M. Fisher to his Answers : and this schedule , containing the substance of the arguments and Answers in the end of the Conference , was sealed with three seales ; the Earle of Warwicks , Master Boultons , and Master Bugges .

The fourth rule is * * Tertul. aduersus Iudaeos . T●rt●llians , first , to 〈◊〉 the ground , and set vp as it were the goales , by determining the state of the question . Summam quaestionis , saith he , certis line is determinemus , & aduersus Marcionem , L. 17. His lineis materiam clausimus , inter quas congredimur . According to which prescription , D. Featly , as soone as he receiued the Question from M. Fisher , returned it in another paper , in which he briefly stated it .

The fift rule is * * Aug. contra Cresc . l. 1. Saint Austens , to obserue Logick Forme in Disputation . Quid tu disputas , si disputare non noueris ? Quid est aliud dialectica , quam peritia disputandi ? Nonne etiam dialectice Christ us cum Iudaeis egit ? Why dost thou offer to dispute , if thou knowest not how to dispute ? What is Logick , but the Art of disputing ? Did not Christ dispute Logically with the Iewes ? And a little after , Dialecticam nunquam doctrina Christiana for●●dat : The Christian doctrine neuer feareth Logick . According to which prescription , D. Featly desired , that both the opponent & respondent should bee tied to Logick Forme : for , nimble wits , like Proteus , will turne themselues into all Formes ; and , vnlesse they bee held fast , and in a sort forced and wrung with the * * Nex● Syllogistico . knots of Logicall Arguments , they wil neuer be brought to agnize the Truth . Aristotle speaks of certain * * Wouerus de Polymathia . Organa mechanica , artificiall Frames vsed in Greece , quae teneros infantium artus coercerent , ne in praua deflecterentur , sed concinna illorum forma nihil foedum aspectu aut distortum praeferret : which frames serued to keep straight the limbs and joynts of the infants , that they should not goe away , but keep due proportion , and a comely shape . Such artificiall instruments are Logick Formes : they serue to make vs to walk straight , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , neither treading inward nor outward in our discourses . To dispute without Logick , is to rule without a Ruler , or draw a Circle without a Compasse , or steer without a Card. In which respect , although M. Fisher were very vnwilling to be bound to his Logicall behauiour , yet D. Featly had great reason to require it of him , because he bound himself to it , proposing all his Arguments in Logick Form , and disposing them in Logick Method ; premising Arguments à priori , before his Argument à posteriori ; and Syllogismes , before his Induction ; beginning at the top in the first Age , and descending to the later , according to the order of time , nature & dignity .

The most cunning Work-man that euer ▪ wrought with the tools of naturall wit , forceth all Arguments into two kindes ; 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or reprehensorie . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or demonstratiue .

Elencticall or reprehensiue driue at an Aduersary .

Dicticall or demonstratiue aime at a Thesis or Position of our owne . The former sort serue to beat downe an enemies weapons on his owne head ; the later , to make good our owne ground . The former may not vnfitly be called , 〈◊〉 Arguments ; the later , Simply and directly proouing . D. Featly , in this Disputation , made vse of both : first , of Elencticall Arguments , to discouer the weaknes of his Aduersaries ; and then of Dicticall , to shew the strength of the Protestants cause , and the Visibility of their Church in all Ages .

The first Argument of the former sort was couched in these words : Although divine and infallible faith is not built vpon deduction out of humane History . Which may be thus propounded at large :

Whosoeuer propoundeth such a Question , in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Testimonies and Records , betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity .

But M. Fisher propoundeth a Question , in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records :

Therefore M. Fisher betraieth his grosse ignorance in Diuinity .

The Maior , or first Proposition , was prooued by * * Bel. l. 2. de Sacr. effec . c. 25 Bellarmine's confession ; Historiae humanae faciunt tantùm fidem humanam , cui subesse potest falsum : Humane Stories and Records beget onely an humane faith , or rather credulity subject to error . And it may bee more strongly confirmed by the testimony of Tertullian : * * De praescript . c. 16. Aliunde suadere possunt de rebus fidei , nisi ex Literis fidei ? Can they otherwise perswade in matters of faith , than out of the Writ of faith ? And Saint Augustine : * * De nat. et grat . c. 61. And Epist. 112. Si quid diuinarum Scripturarum perspicua firmatur authoritate , sine vlla dubitatione credendum est : alijs vero testibus & credere vel non credere licet , &c Solis Canonicis debeo absolutum , sine vlla recusatione , consensum : I owe absolute consent , without any refusall , onely to the Canonicall Scriptures . The effect cannot exceed the cause ; nor the conclusion , both the premises : and therefore wee cannot build a diuine and infallible conclusion ( such are all conclusions de fide ) vpon meer humane testimonies , which are not of infallible truth . All other humane Histories come short of the Apocryphall Books of Scripture : for , you rank them with the Canonicall Scriptures ; and we giue them the * * Zanch. de Relig. christ . & alij . next place to them : yet the testimonies out of the Apocryphal of Scripture , may not be alleaged to ground any conclusion of faith vpon them , as * * Ruf. in Symb. Ruffinus affirms in expresse words : Quae omniae legi quidem in Ecclesiis volucrunt , non tamen proferri ad authoritatem ex his fidei confirmandam : All which Books they would haue read in the Churches , but not be produced to establish faith out of them .

The Minor or Assumption is thus prooued :

The perpetuall Visibility of the Church is a conclusion of faith , euidently grounded ( as is confessed ) on Christ's promise in Scripture .

But M. Fisher requireth in his Question , the perpetuall Visibility of the Church to be proued out of meer humane Authors and Stories , expresly excluding Scripture :

Therefore M. Fisher propoundeth a Question , in which he requireth a conclusion of faith to be prooued out of meer humane Histories and Records .

The second Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was couched in these words : Although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false s●pposals , &c. Which may be thus propounded at large .

That Question which is grounded vpon an euident false supposall , needeth not to bee discussed , but ought rather to be exploded .

But M. Fishers Question is grounded vpon an euident false supposall :

Therefore M. Fishers Question needeth not to be discussed , but ought rather to bee exploded .

The Maior , or first Proposition , is euident in it self : for , to such a Question there needeth no other Answer to be giuen , but simply to deny the supposall .

The Minor , or second Proposition , was thus proued :

First , if the names of all Professors are not , nor euer were , vpon Record , then M. Fishers supposall is false , viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages , vnlesse the names of all visible professors can now bee shewed .

But all visible professors names are not , nor euer were on record , as it is certaine , and confessed by A. C. p. 33.

Therefore Master Fishers supposall is false ; viz. that A Protestant Church could not haue been visible in former ages vnlesse the names of those visible Professors could be shewed .

Secondly , if all ancient Records are not now extant , then it is no good Argument , to say , The names of visible Protestants in all ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record ; therefore they were neuer vpon Record .

But all ancient Records are not now extant :

Therefore it is no good Argument , to say , that because the names of visible Protestants in all Ages cannot now bee shewed vpon Record ; therefore they were neuer vpon Record .

These Arguments Master Fisher passed by with a drie foot , and by his silence granteth it .

Thirdly , the people of Africa mentioned by Pliny , were visible men , yet cannot their proper names be shewed & proued out of good Authors : for , good Authors report , they had no proper names at all . With this rather tentatiue then serious instance , M. Fisher and Master Sweet were blankt : but Master Boulton , though he confessed in effect , that they were gon at the common Law : yet he sought to relieue them by the Chan●●●● , by saying , that Though those people had no proper names , yet they had some descriptions , and might bee knowne by some periphrasis . But it may bee replied ,

1. A description or periphrasis is no proper name .

2. They cannot produce out of any good Authors , any particular description of these men , whereby they may bee personally and indiuidually distinguished one from another ; but onely a generall description , that They are a people in Africa , neere the hill Atlas , which haue no proper names ; and thus it will bee easie to produce Protestants in all ages , in a generall description of certaine men , who opposed certaine errors against , and besides the Doctrine of Scripture , and especially the errors of the Church of Rome .

Fourthly , the Author and Head of the Heretikes called Acephali , was a visible man , but his name cannot bee shewed and prooued out of good Authors : for those Hereticks were therefore called Acephali , or headless , because the certain Author and Head of that Heresie could neuer bee knowne . And heer , if it be lawfull to pay Master Fisher with his owne coyne , a man might truly say , that both himselfe , and his as●istant Master Sweet , and their good friend at a dead 〈◊〉 , Master Boulton , were all nonplussed with this argument , for they replied nothing to it .

Fiftly , the falshood of Master Fishers supposall ( the defence whereof Master Sweet rashly vndertooke in the conference ) may bee farther manifested by diuers other instances ; as

First , there were 7000. in Elias time , who neuer bowed their knee to Baal : yet their names cannot be shewed nor prooued out of good Authors .

Secondly , there were who opposed corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises , and their false doctrine , or at least assented not vnto it , in the age immediatly before Christs Incarnation : yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors .

Thirdly , the first brocher of the errors touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost , and Authors of the schism and rent between the Greek and Latine Churches , were visible men , yet their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors .

Fourthly , they who first brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kinde onely , were visible men : yet the names of * * Greg de Valent . de legit . vs . Eucharist . them cannot bee shewed nor proued out of good Authors .

Fiftly , there were Bishops in almost euerie Diocess of England & Ireland , and other Countries , as also Parsons of Parishes , succeeding one the other for aboue 1000. yeers : yet the names of such Bishops and Parsons cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors .

Sixtly , Master Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors from Noah , according to the flesh , were visible men : yet all their names cannot bee shewed and proued out of good Authors .

And here the Protestants might iustly call for names , as the Papists did in the conference when their Champions were at a fault .

First , there were a people of Africa , neuer christned by any proper names . Names , Names , where are their Names ?

Secondly , there was an Author of the Heresie of the Acephali . Names , Names , where is his Name ?

Thirdly , there were 7000. in Elias time , who neuer bowed their knees to Baal . Names , Names , where are their Names ?

Fourthly , there were those who opposed the corrupt glosses of the Scribes and Pharises in the age before Christs Incarnation . Names , Names , where are their Names ?

Fiftly , there were those that first broached the error touching the proceeding of the holy Ghost . Names , Names , where are their Names ?

Sixtly , there were those that brought into the Church the administration of the Sacrament vnder one kind onely . Names , Names , where are their Names ?

Seuenthly , there were Bishops almost in each particular Diocesse of England , and Ireland , and other Countries , as also Parsons of Parishes for aboue 1000. yeeres . Names , Names , where are their Names ?

Eightthly , M. Fishers and Master Sweets Ancestors , descended from Noah , were visible men . Names , Names : where are their Names ?

The third Elencticall or reprehensiue Argument was implied in D. Featly's challenge to M. Fisher , to name any City , Town , Village or Hamlet , where the present Romish faith was taught for fiue hundred yeers & more next after Christ . And indeed heer the Title of the Conference was verified , M. Fisher was caught in his owne Net : for , in propounding the Question of the Visibility of the Church in all Ages , he spred a strong Net ( as hee thought ) to catch D. White and D. Featly , in supposing it to be impossible for them to proue the Visibility of the Protestant Church in all Ages , especially in the Ages immediatly going before Luther ; but hee was caught in his owne Net , by being put to proue the Visibility of the Romish Church for fiue hundred yeers immediately after Christ . And therefore we turne his owne Ordnance vpon him , wherewith hee intended to batter down the walls of our Sion .

The true Church must haue been visible in all Ages before Luther ; yea , so visible , as M. Fisher pretendeth , that The Names of the Professors of the faith thereof may be shewed and proued out of good Authors .

The Romish Church hath not been so visible :

Therefore the Romish Church is not the true Church .

The Maior or first Proposition is the Iesuites owne .

The Assumption is thus prooued :

No Church , holding the entire doctrine of the Councell of Tre●t in generall , or the fifteen Tenets set down in the Conference in particular , can be shewed for fiue hundred yeers and more after Christ .

But the Romish Church holdeth the doctrine of the Councell of Trent in generall , and those fifteen Articles in speciall :

Therefore the Romish Church cannot bee shewed to haue been visible for fiue hundred yeers after Christ .

And first , that no Church within the space aboue-named , can bee prooued to haue held the foresaid Tenets of the present Romish Church , was proued in the Conference by M. Fisher's silence , and much more by A. C. his silence in his Answer to the former Conference . Heer M. Fisher was as mute as a Fish . Campi●● in his tenth reason boldly affirmeth , that 〈…〉 prooue the Romish faith : but we could not hear so much as any v●ces or 〈◊〉 from M. Fisher , to testifie , much lesse to justifie the Romish faith in the first and best Ages . Pour contrel . Pli●●● writes of the * * Plin. l. 9. nat. hist. Poly●um in tantum Locusta pauet , vt si iuxta viderit , omni●● moriatur . ●●custa or Lobster , that he is so afraid of the 〈◊〉 , that it is death for him to see him : so wee may truely say , that M. Fisher was so afraid of the fifteen Articles mentioned in the Conference , to bee justified by Antiquity , that it was death to him to name them . And therefore when hee comes to that part of the Conference , he passeth away in an Homericall Cloud , saying , Heer D. Featly made an insolent Challenge . But A. C. durst not set down so much as the words of the Challenge in particular , lest his Catholique Disciples should be scandalized at it .

Secondly , the Inuisibility of the Romish Church , for many hundreds of yeeres after Christ , may be inferred from the confessions of our learned Aduersaries . Alfonsus confesseth for Indulgences ; Roffensis , for Purgatory ; and Gregory de Valentia , for Communion vnder one kinde , that they were no part of the beleefe or practice of the ancient Church . Verily I beleeue , Alfonsus à Castro and Roffensis needed a pardon for so expresly professing the nouelty of Pardons and Indulgences . * * L. 8. contr● haeres . verbo . indulg . Alfonsus his words are , Multa sunt Posterioribus nota , quae Vetustissimi Scriptores prorsus ignorârunt . De Transubst antiatione , rara in Antiquis mentio ; de Purgatorio ferè nulla . Quid ergo mi●um , si ad h●nc modum contigerit de Indulgentijs , vt apud Priscos nulla sit menti● ? There are many things knowne to later Writers , which the Ancients were altogether ignorant of . There is seldome any mention of Transubstantiation among the Ancients ; almost none of Purgatory . What maruell then , if it so fall out with Indulgences , that there should be no mention of them by the Ancients ? * * Contrae Lutherum , c. 18. Roffensis strikes in Vnisons with him : Cùm Purgatorium tam serò cognitum 〈◊〉 receptum vniuersae Ecclesiae fueri● , quis iam de I●●●lgentijs mirari possit ? Sith Purgatory hath been so lately knowne and receiued of the whole Church , who can now wonder concerning Indulgences ? As for communion vnder one kind , and depriuing the Laity of the Cup ( which Gelasius calleth , Grande sacrilegium , a great sacrilege ) that it was an abuse lately crept into the church , we need no more pregnant testimony , than Gregory de * * Lib. de legit . vsu Eucha● . c ▪ 8. Valentia voluntarily affordeth vs : 〈◊〉 negamus , qu●m vtraque species olim administr●●● sit , vt apparet ex Paulo , 1. Cor. 10. Cypriano , Athanasio , H●eronymo , &c. We deny not , that the Communion in ancient times was administred vnder both kindes , as appeares out of Saint Paul , Cyprian , Athanasius , Hierom , &c. and in his tenth Chapter . Et quidem quando primùm vigere c●pis consuetudo communicandi sub alterâ tantùm specie in aliquibus Ecclesiis , minimè constat : coepit autem 〈◊〉 c●nsuetudo in Ecclesiâ Latinâ esse generalis non 〈◊〉 ante tempor● Concilij Constantiensis : And truely it appeares not when this custome of communicating vnder one kinde onely , began in some Churches : but it began not to be a generall custome in the Latine Church , much before the Councell of Constance . I will heere instance in one Particular more : and That is the publique Seruice in an vnknown tongue , which was brought into the Church by Pope Vitalian ; who , as * * 〈◊〉 ▪ Lect. Wolphius sheweth , brought-in the Latine Seruice , and obtruded it to the whole Church precisely , in the yeer 666 , which is the number of the Name of the Beast in the Apocalypse . I intreat the Reader to take speciall notice of it , that * * Iren. l ▪ 5. aduers . haeres . c. 3● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , nomen hab●t 666. et valde verisi●ile est , & 〈◊〉 regnum hoc habet voc●●ulum : Latine e●im sunt qui nunc regnant . Irenaeus findeth the numerall Letters , 666 , in the word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : and Wolphius prooueth out of Popish Writers , that this very yeer , 666 , the Latine Bishop Vitalianus commanded Latine Seruice in the whole Christian world .

And this may serue for the confirmation and illustration of the former sort of Arguments vsed by D. Featly in the Conference .

For the later , which were Dicticall or demonstratiue , partly drawne à priori , from the cause , and propounded in Syllogisticall Forme ; partly à posteriori , from the effect ; and propounded in an Induction ; they march on in their owne strength , and need no conuoy . Some weak resistance hath been made by some stray Troops , who are met withall in the precedent Remonstrance . But now , after fiue Moneths , M. Fisher , leuying all his forces , biddeth them battell , and proclaimeth it by his Herauld , A. C.

A Prooem to the Answer to the Conference .

WEE read a pleasant Story in 〈◊〉 , of a fellow , that , beeing somewhat heauie , took a brasse pot which hee had in his hand , and put it vnder his head for a pillow , and so laid him downe to sleepe : but finding That his pillow some-what vneasie , with all the wit he had , he rose vp , and filled it full of feathers and straw within , and thereby thought he had made it much softer , and took a nap vpon it . If I should not apply this Story , the intelligent Reader soon would : You , M. Fisher , are the man , who finding your former Answers , vpon which you relyed in the Conference , to bee very hard , vncouth , and not to be endured ; now , in this your defense of them , you as it were fill the brasse pot within , with feathers and straw , that is , stuffe out and bumbaste your former Answers with verball distinctions , impertinencies , tautologies , cauils , and vntruthes : for all the feathers and straw , the pot is brasse still , as hard as euer it was ; and , for all your new qualifications and falsifications , your former Answers are as harsh and vnsufferable , as euer before : so that hee needeth a brow of brasse , that will rest or rely vpon them . For example :

1. About the beginning of the Conference , you were driuen to these Soloecismes in Grammar , to affirm , that Two vtrums imply not two quaeres ; that whether the Church , &c. and whether the names , &c. make but one whether ; that the Copulatiue ( and ) coupleth nothing ; that these words ( It is not ) in the singular , are to bee referred to that part of the question , Whether names , &c. in the plurall . To these absurd paradoxes in Grammar , Page . 17. against all common sense , you answer , To cut off all needlesse wrangling about the Aduerb vtrum , whether , and the Copulati●e et , and , as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing , rather then graue Diuines , who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar , &c. Belike , graue Diuines are priuiledged to bee 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , vnlettered , vnchristcrost , to vtter non-sense , to speake false English at their pleasure , as the Pope did false Latine , when he said , Fiatur , for fiat , in contemptum omnium Grammaticorum . But , as the Romane Grammarian told the Emperour , who vsed an vncouth word , * * Bentius orat . Ciuitatem ab Imperatore hominibus d●ri posse , verbis non posse , that it was in the power of the Emperour , to make men free of the City of Rome , but not words : so let mee tell you , that the Pope may dispense with you for breaking the rules of your order , in so much intermeddling ( as you doe ) in ciuil affaires ; but hee cannot dispense with you , for breaking of Grammar Rules ▪ Priscian may lay his action against you in all 〈◊〉 , & there lies no prohibition in a case of this nature .

2. You were driuen to these Soloecis●es in Logick . First , In a true Syllogisme to answer to the conclusion : For which you would haue beene ●issed out of the Schooles in our Vniuersities . Secondly , distinguish vpon a proposition , and apply the distinction to no tearm . To the former you answer , Th● idle exception , Page 24. M. Fisher , attending to the 〈◊〉 , did not regard ; but might haue told him , that it is not vnusuall , after a distinction made both to Maior and Minor , to apply the like to the conclusion . It is true , he might haue said so ( as you doe now ) : but is that sufficient without farther proofe ? Name the place where it is vsuall . I am sure it is alwaies improper and needlesse : for the conclusion in disputation , is alwaies a proposition giuen by the answerer , to the opponent , to inferre & conclude it in his argument : and therefore it is alwaies supposed to bee agreed vpon for the meaning of it , before it comes to be concluded in a Syllogisme . The Answerer may alwaies distinguish of premises , because they are new propositions not before debated vpon : but the conclusion is either the originall Thesis it selfe , propounded by the answerer , ( which if it be ambiguous , he ought to haue explicated it , in setting downe the sta●e of the Question ) or it is one of the premises in the Opponents Syllogisme : in which , if there lay any ambiguity , the Respondent ought to haue distinguished vpon it before , when it was the Maior or Minor proposition ; and not , when being distinguished or denied before by the Respondent , it is now by the Opponent in a true Syllogisme made the Conclusion . To the second you answer : Page . 26. That which D. Featly thinketh to bee a straine of new Logick , to distinguish vpon a proposition , without applying the distinction to any particular tearm , is not so strange as he maketh it . As for example : When one saith , An Aethiopian is white , neither the tearm Aethiopian alone , nor the tearme white alone , in it selfe , needeth distinction , because it is not equiuocall . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : What a strange speech is this ? Is not the tearme albus , white , equiuocall ? Doe not almost all later Logicians giue it , as a most knowne instance of an equiuocall tearme ? Which may bee taken two waies , either absolutely , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and in whole , as when wee say , Nireus is albus , Nireus is a white man , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ; or 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , secundum quid , in some respect or part , as when wee say , Ethiops est albus , a black Moore is white , to weet , in his teeth . It is true , that as Poyson infecteth the whole bloud , yet the substance of it lies but in one principall part : so an equiuocation in any part of a proposition , in some sort , affecteth the whole : yet this equiuocation lieth alwaies in one tearme , to weet , in the subiectum , or praedicatum , if the proposition bee properly equiuocall ; and in the copula and construction , if it bee properly amphibologicall : as , A●o te , Aeacida , Romanos vincere posse : te Roman●s , or Romanos te . But note M. Fisher ( if you knew it not ) , that one of the three termini in a Syllogisme , may containe , many words : neither can you name any ambiguous Proposition , in which it may not bee shewed , in which Logick tearme the ambiguity lyeth .

3. You were driuen in the Conference to this Soloecisme in Philosophy , to affirme , That Media may be said directa , yet not to tend ad directum finem . Hereto he answers , * * Page 30. If M. Fisher did say these words , his meaning may bee gathered out of his former explication ; in which he shewed , how the direct end of the Disputation was not , to treat of particular controuersies , but to finde out , first by other meanes , the true visible Church , whose professors names may be shewed in all Ages out of good Authors : those Media therefore Directa , as D. Featly termed them , might in some sort be so tearmed , as beeing directed by D. Featly , to his owne end , of transferring the question to particular Conferences , but not ad directum finem , that is , not ordained to the direct end of the Disputation , viz. to she● a visible Church of Protestants in all Ages , whose names may be shewed out of good Authors . Of the end of the Dispute , & how my arguments tended directly to that end , enough hath been said before in the Remonstrance . But admitting that they tended not to the direct end , M Fisher should haue said , Your Media were not Directa , because they tended not ad directum finem : but he saith , Your Media were Directa , but not tending ad direct ●●finem ; thereby flatly contradicting himselfe in the same proposition : for , Media , or meanes , are said in relation to an end ; therefore , if they are direct , they must needs tend to the direct end . To say , Media are Directa , and not tending ad directum finem , to the direct end , is all one , as if he should say , This shoo indeed is fit , but not for the foot : This is the streight way , but not to the place you would goe to : The aime is right , but not to the marke : The saddle serueth fit , but not to the beasts back : The knife is keen , and sharp , but not to cut . For , as a shoo is said to be fit onely in respect of the foote : and the way straight , in respect of a mans intended iourney : and the ●ime right , in respect of the marke : and the saddle to serue fit , in respect of the beasts back , for which it is made ; & the knife keen , in respect of cutting : so are Media said to be Directa , onely 〈…〉 . And therefore I had iust cause then to vse the English Prouerbe , This is a Bull ; and now the Greeke , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

4. You were driuen to the worst soloecisme of all in Diuinity , to refuse to answer to Christ and his Apostles , yea though you were solemnely adiured thereunto . To this ( to 〈◊〉 impudent denials & apparant contradiction obserued by the witnesses in the Attestation ) you answer , Pag. 64. & 65. that You would not permit me to diuert either to dispute about Christ , or his Apostles , or any other point , till Names were giuen in all ages : Pag. 65. for , this had been , say you , to follow two Hares at once , and so to catch neither . A light Answer , Master Fisher , to so weightie a Charge . Christ and his Apostles should not haue been so slightned . But you say , To instance in Christ and his Apostles in the first Age , was , To follow two Hares . Do you remember which was the Hare we were to hunt ? Was it not the Visibility of the Church in all Ages before Luther ? And could a man possibly take a more direct and orderly way , then to begin with the first Age , and the first of the first Age ? If this were not the way to catch the Hare , your owne Hunts-men , that prating 〈◊〉 , and his honest transcriber S. N. were at a great fault : for , they begin their Catalogue where I do . Will you not bee angry , Master Fisher , if I tell you the truth ? I hunted not two Hares at once : but when you were deuising and printing your Answer in the * * By Islington . Cellar or Cell●eer the Wind-mill , your head swomm● , and your brains ran round , and you knew not well your selfe what you did , as will appeare to any , who will compare my Reply with your Answer , which I here transcribe verbati● ( ●hongh not alwaies following you 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , because you often double , and more often start aside ) ; requiring of you the like . And I begin with your Title .

An Answer to a Pamphlet , intituled , The Fisher catched in his owne net . In which , by the way , is shewed , that The Protestant Church was not so visible in all Ages , as the true Church ought to bee ; and consequently , is not the true Church , of which men may learne infallible faith necessarie to saluation , by A. C.

Dignum patellâ operculum ; such a cup , such a Couer ; such ware , such inscription on the outside of the box : such as the Inne is , such is the signe : such as the Clocke is , such is the Index or Finger of the Diall . A crackt Cup , and a false Couer ; naughtie ware , and as bad an inscription ; a cheating Inne , and a lewd Signe ; an vncertain Clock , & a lying Index ; a book full of falshood & fraud , & neuer a true word in the title : for , neither is it an answer to the Phamphlet so intituled , but a Cauill at some passages therein ; neither in this Answer ( as hee tearmeth it ) is shewed , that The Protestant Church is not the true visible Church , but rather the contrarie , as shall appeare by discussing it ; neither was it penned by A. C. but by Master Fisher , who before was caught in his owne net , and now d●nceth in a net , vnder the name of A. C. thinking , that no man seeth him : yet your Net is not so close , but that I plainly see you thorow it ; and I gesse at the reason why you shrowd your selfe vnder the Characters of A. C. There are many passages in this Answer ; in which , Master Fishers ingenuity , and sincerity , and modestie , are set vpon the Last . These commendations of Master Fisher would haue lost all their grace in his own mouth , as a Turkeys doth the luster on the finger of a dead man : but it becomes A. C. well enough , to blazon the Armes of Master Fisher. Moreouer , by thus borrowing the letters of your friends name , you play fast and loose . If any man like your Answer , then it is yours ; but if hee dislike it , then it is A. C ▪ as * * Orat. pro Cu● Plantio . Tully being girded at by Laterensis for a common Iester , answereth , Quod quisque dicit , id ●e dixisse dicunt : ego autem si quid est quod mihi 〈◊〉 esse videatur , et homine ingenu● dignum atqu● doct● , non aspernor ▪ stomachor verò , cùm a●●rum non me digna in me conseruntur : Other mens jests are fathered vpon mee : and if they bee wittie jests , and haue salt in them , I am content to father them ; but if dry and vnsauorie , I will not owne them . In like manner in your booke : — Si quid tamen aptius exit : Quanquam haec rara auis est : siquid t●men aptius exit ,

If there be any thing sharply spoken , & to good purpose , M. Fisher will challenge that to himself : but if any thing bee spoken impertinently and flatly ( as indeed the greater part of your Musick goes vpon flats ) then A. C. must beare it out . Howsoeuer , in my judgement , M. Fisher , you had better haue taken off your mask , and dealt open●y : for , by this concealing your true name , you giue your selfe a blow , and your cause a wound . Were not you a Nominall in the Conference ? Did not you stand wholly , in a manner , vpon Names ? and will not you now set your owne name to your owne Work ? A man would think , that you , who are stored with so many * * Per●y ; alias Stebden ; alias , Fisher. Names , might haue bestowed , at least , one of your old cast Names at full length on your Title-page , and not put your Reader to spell A. C. who , I can assure you , spells them vnhappily . One spelleth thus : An Answer written by A. C. that is , A Counterfeit ; another , A. C. A Cauiller ; a third , An Answer written by A. C. that is , by A Cox-&c . quod dicere nolo : but I spare you , and leaue your Title , and come to your Preface .

Master FISHER'S Preface .

GEntle Reader , although I doubt not , but all that bee wise and iudicious , especially if they duely consider the occasion & state of the question lately treated ( in a Conference betwixt Doctor White , and Doctor Featly Ministers , and Master Fisher and Master Sweet Iesuites ) will easily discerne ( euen by that false relation which is set out in print by a Protestant ) that the Protestants cause hath not gained any thing .

Doctor FEATLY'S Answer .

AS our Blessed Sauiour spake to the High-priests seruant , Iohn 18. 23 saying , If I haue done euill , beare witnesse of the euill ; if well , why smitest thou me ? In like manner , the Protestant Relator may checke you : If hee haue done you any wrong in the relation , or set downe any thing vntruely , conuince him of it ; if not , why doe you smite him with your tongue and pen ? It is your owne Maxime , that No man will lie for the aduantage of his Aduersarie ; or for his owne disaduantage : but you here say , that The Protestant cause hath gained nothing by the relation . Therefore it should seeme , by your owne argument , to bee a sincere , and not malicious relation . Howsoeuer , if the Protestant cause hath gained nothing by it , your cause hath lost nothing by it ; and if so , why do you so maligne and persecute , euen vnto banishment , an innocent Relation ? Why do you forbid your Romish Catholiques to reade it ? Why apply you so many salues , both in writing and in print , if there be no sore ? What the Protestant cause gained by the Conference it selfe , or the relation thereof , malo in aliorum opinione relinquere , quàm in oratione mea ponere : it is fitter for me to heare , then speak . I am sure , Doctor White and my selfe haue gained much ease by it : for , before the Conference , wee could neuer bee quiet for your challenges ; but since , wee haue neuer been troubled with you . It seemes , you had enough of that short Encounter . But you will say , No blowe was struck home : no arrow was drawne vp to the head ; no argument prosecuted to the full , at that Meeting . How then could the Protestant Cause gaine any thing by it ? By your miserable euasions , and manifest flight and tergiuersation , you , who were ante pugnam auidus & tumidus , were in pugnâ pauidus & timidus : like Captaine Iohn , mentioned by Sinesius , Epist. 104. who in the maine fight , fled amaine , digging his horse-sides , letting loose the Reanes , laying on amaine with a switch , &c. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . &c. It will be said , If you fled in such manner , why did not I follow after you ? Because in your flight you brake the bridge , by refusing to answer Christ and his Apostles . Scripturis non loquentibus , quis loquetur ? Where Christ and his Apostles cannot be heard , the holy Father was resolued neuer to speake . I account it no foile to my cause , to bee non-futed in that Court , where Christ and his Apostles are excepted against . Where the Charters of our saluation are not pleadable , giue mee leaue , M. Fisher , to speake to you Iesuites in the words of * * Athanasius de Incar . Christ . Si ▪ discipuli est is Scripturarum , per eas nobiscum incedite ; si diuersa a Scripturis vultis fabulari , cur nobiscum decortaetis , qui neque loqui neque audire sustinemus , quod extraneum sit ab istis , dicente Domino , Si manseritis in sermone meo , eritis mei Discipuli ? Athanasius : If you are the Disciples of the Scriptures , and Christs scholars , walke with vs by them : if you wil talk extrauagantly and diuersly from the Scriptures , why do you contend with vs , who dare not to speak or heare any thing without them , or different from them ; our Lord saying ▪ If you abide in my sayings , you shall bee my Disciples ?

Master FISHER'S Preface .

Neuerthelesse , because those who bee partially affected , or of meane capacity , may ( as it is to be doubted diuers doe ) conceiue & speak amisse of this matter , to the disgrace of the Catholique cause , and the preiudice of their owne and other mens soules ; I have thought is meet to set out a true relation of the occasion , progresse , and issue of this Conference ; and this in such sort , as diuers falshoods of the Protestant Relator may be easily perceiued , and the weaknesse of the Protestant cause may be euidently discouered : which is also so bad , as it seemeth it cannot bee supported , but by setting out such lying relations .

The Answer .

Nescio quo pacto vox tua facta mea est . You haue said that which I should haue said . When Saint Hierom iustly taxed Sabinian a Deacon , for deflouring a Nun , Sabinian reflects vpon Saint Hierom , and laies foule aspersions of lewdnes vpon him : but the difference was that which S. Hierom charged Sabinian with , which was per veram convictionem , by true conuiction : but that which Sabinian charged Saint Hierom with , was per falsam confictionem , by false conifiction , or forged calumniation . Thus the case stands betweene the Protestant Relatour and you , Master Fisher. Hee laies crimen falsi to your charge , per veram conuictionem , by true conuiction : hee proues falshood by you , by vnanswerable arguments drawne from euident circumstances , and your owne confession , and multitude of witnesses beyond all exception : see the Attestation . Whereas you obiect falshood to him , it is per falsam confictionem : you falsly impose falshood vpon him : you say , that there is falsehood in his relation , but you proue no such thing . Your 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , heere cannot carry it ; first , because the particulars you deny , neerly touch your credit and reputation : therefore it stands you vpon , Cic. in Ver. to deny them . Negas haec facta : turpis enim et periculosa est confessio : you deny matters of fact alleadged against you in the Conference , because you cannot with safety or credit confesse them . Besides this legall exception against your witnesse in your owne case , you are a Frier , and therefore ( according to the ancient English Prouerb ) a L. with a rime to it . Thirdly , you are a Iesuite : and therefore ( vnlesse you will swarue from the rule of the prime men & Ring-leaders of your society ) you maintain the wholsome and profitable vse of an equiuocating Lie . What doo I or any man knowe , whether , when you speak of diuerse false-hoods of the Protestant Relator , you reserue not in your minde , Fained by me , or deuised by me , to saue my credit , and promote the Catholique Cause ? But let vs see how you turn the Lie vpon vs .

Master FISHER'S Preface .

The sight and consideration whereof maketh wee more easily beleeue that to bee true which I haue read , viz. that A Decree was made by Diuines in Geneua , defining it lawfull to lie for the honour or credit of the Gospell ; and that , conformably to this Decree , an English Minister being told , that one of his Pu●-fellows had made Lies , in stead of Proofs of his Protestant Religion , did answer , saying , Hee cannot lie too much in this cause : it must needs be a weak and bad cause , that needeth to be supported by such weak and bad shifts .

Answer .

I assent to your conclusion : It must needs bee a false religion , that is supported with such lies as you haue now heer giuen vs a brace . True Religion neither is supported by lies , nor any way supports lies . Let vs see then whether your faith or ours leanes on these base and beggerly crooches . Certainely , neither Iacobus de Voragine , nor Surius , nor Copgraue , nor Turseline , nor any other Author of your golden Legends , seruing to support your doctrines of Transubstantiation , Inuocation of Saints , Worship of Images and Reliques , Purgatory , and Pilgrimages , &c. can be proued to be a Protestant . He that wrote Beza's Recantation ; and another , who since set forth the late Lord Bishop of Londons Legacie , was farre from a Protestant . Name me any Protestant who euer defended pias fraudes , or euer propugned this Tenet , Fides non est seruanda Haereticis , Faith is not to be kept with Hereticks . The Fathers of the Councell of Constance , who , contrary to the faith and safe conduct giuen by the Emperour Sigismund , burnt Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague , neuer learned from the Schoole of Geneua , or the English Pue you speak of , to break faith for the maintenance of the Romish-Catholique faith , and the destruction of the opposers thereof . The first that brake the Oath of Alleageance in heauen , was the Diuell ; and by it , becam a Diuell : and the first that brake promise on the earth , was likewise the Diuell , Gen. 3. whose scholars they shew themselues , who teach , that Promises euen confirmed by oathes , the strongest sinewes which hold all humane society together , may be either cut asunder by Papall Dispensation , or cunningly vntied by Iesuiticall Equiuocation . Pray tell me in good earnest : Sprang the doctrine of Equiuocation ( whereby you defend , that a man may affirm , nay sweare an vntruth in words , and make it vp by a mentall reseruation ) from vs , or from you ? Heer you haue Names , names of your owne trade , and some of them Wardens of your owne equiuocating Company . I cannot finde either Nanarrus , or Gregory de Valentia , or Southwell , or Tolet , or Parsons , among the Catalogue of Protestant Writers . These vpholders of Equiuocation , and many other , whose names deserue to be buried in euerlasting obliuion with the ancient P●iscilianists ( whose old , damnable doctrine touching the lawfull vse of lying , they refine with a new Burnish , to make it more saleable ) , neuer took a Copie of the supposed Decree of Geneua , nor gathered Notes from the English Reader you speak of . No Protestants are so ambitious , as to steale from your Garlands the fairest Flowres wherewith you adorne your heads and pens . If any such Flowres growe in our Gardens , either they die of themselues , or are carefully weeded out . I appeal to all the Confessions , Catechisms , Expositions on the Commandements , Systems of Diuinity , Common-places , seuerall Tractates , wherein , either directly and professedly , or occasionally , they fall on the Subject wee are now about , whether they condemn not all lying and false-hood , open or couered , with mentall reseruation , or without , to the deep pit of hell from whence they came . From which pit , Iacobus de Voragine may very well be thought to take his name , for raking hell for so many lying miracles and fables , wherewith hee hath stuffed the liues of Saints . And now hauing laid the Dog at your doore , let vs see how you beat him from you , to ours . Your wisdome and graue fatherhood heer tels vs of a Decree made at Geneua , you knowe not when ; and a tale of a Minister , you knowe not who ; and for proof , are alleaged Iohannes Cretensis , and Gulielmus Nullatenensis , or ( if you will ) Episcopus Chalcedonensis : both these , if I may take your word ( for , I hold neither of them worth looking into ) relate the Stories aboue-mentioned , and that agreeable to their names and titles , fide Graeca . A pretty Pageant : A Iesuite cites a Iesuite against Geneua ; and a Romish Priest , a new no-Bishop of Chalcedon , against an English Minister . Aruspex Aruspicem : one * * Fortune-tellor . Gypsie quotes another for the truth of his Art . Simia giues his word for Pseudolus . Belial cites Belzebub the god of Flies , for a Flie-blown scoffing Iergon at Geneua : There was a decree made , defining it to be lawfull to lie for the credit and honor of the Gospell . Where was this Decree or Canon made ? In the Senate , or in the Consistory ? By the Syndicks , or by the Presbyterie ? When was it made ? What date beares it ? Who drew it ? Who engrossed it ? Vpon what occasion was it made ? Who subscribed to it ? I cry you mercy : now I remember when it was made : it was made the very yeer in which Beza recanted his Religion : and immediately thereupon , all Geneua reconciled it selfe to the Pope . And at that time , the Pope's Holiness , to assure the Geneuians of his vnfained loue and friendship to their city , sent them a Copie of the great Charter of Constantines donation , and in the back-side of it , this decree was written , at the beginning of the Iulian period , an. 764. ante orbem conditum . Yea , but some Papists will say , If this Decree were so ridiculous a forgery , Father Eudaemon Iohannes would neuer haue reported it , as he doth , in sober sadnes . Titus 1. 12 Heerunto I answer , first , out of Saint Paul , that the Cretians are not alwaies the honestest men : and Father Eudaemon doth not deny nor belie his Country . Secondly , I answer out of the Acts of our Courts , and the Proceedings against Garnet , that this Eudaemon , who takes vpon him to justifie that Powder-traitor , against most vncontrouleable Euidence , and the publick justice of a whole Kingdome , is none of the honestest among the Cretians . This is that monstrum hominis , monstrum nominis , Andraeas Iohannes sid●nius Cretensis . This is the Canonizer of Garnet and his straw . Father Garnet , forsooth , at his execution ( si credere fas est ) let fall some drops of bloud vpon a straw , which miraculously fashioned themselues into the shape and Visage of that Powder-martyr : which is as true , and altogether as likely , as that the Atomi or motes , such as wee now see in the Sun , by a casuall concourse , made the whole world , according to the faith of the antient Epicures . But the best jest was , that as Garnets tongue doubled and equiuocated whil'st he was aliue , so his face equiuocated and doubled after his death . As in Plautus his Amphitrio , Socis begat another Socia ; and Blepharo , another Blepharo ; and the Goblet , another Goblet ; so like , that they could not be distinguished : in like manner , face begets face , and miracle begets miracle , and straw begets straw ; representing Garnet's feature ; so like , that without miracle they could not bee distinguished . Thoughts are free . My conceit is , that Father Eudaemon , reading Saint Gregorie's Exposition on those words of Iob , Boues arabant , & asini pascebant iuxta ; the oxen plowed , and the asses fed by them ; and learning , that by oxen were allegorically meant the Clergie , and by asses , the Laity , thought he might well defend this strawn miracle , because straw is fit fodder for asses . For which his Apologie of Garnet and his straw , as also his witty inuention of a Decree published at Geneua , for the lawfulnes of a Lie tending to the honour and credit of the Gospell , hee meriteth to haue the first syllable of his name to bee cut off . As Ieconias is called by the Prophet , Conias : so Eudaemon should bee called from henceforth , * * Diuell Iohn . Daemon Iohannes . And for the Bishop of Chalcedon , I wish him no other punishment , for his slander of the English Minister , but to be sent to reside on his Diocesse . And so I leaue them , and come to you , M. Fisher.

Master FISHER'S Preface .

I for my part will not promise to haue perfectly remembred and set downe euery word that passed in this Conference , especially spoke by by-standers , nor to haue strictly obserued the precise order of euerie passage : but for the substance and truth of the matter that I doe relate , I assure , that there shall not bee found any falsehood , vnlesse it be in some of those parcels which I doe not relate of my selfe , but out of the Protestant Relator whose relation ordinarily as I doe not contradict , vnlesse it bee vpon necessarie occasions , so I doe not intend to approue . But , simply relating what it saith , I will leaue is to others to iudge what they thinke fit of it . Onely this I will say , that euerie one may beleeue it , so farre as it relateth any thing which may aduantage the Catholique Defendants and their cause , or disaduanlage the Protestant Disputants and their cause : for it is certaine , that no man wil lie for the aduantage of his aduersary , or his cause , nor his owne disaduantage . But in such things as it hath set downe aduantageously for the Protestant Disputant , or his cause , there is iust reason to suspect it , inregard that I am told , that Doctor Featly himselfe ( who is said to bee the Author ) hath confessed , that more is said in the relation , then was said in the conference it selfe : and I am sure , something is left out which was said , and something mis-reported . This being premised by way of preface , I will begin to discourse of the matter it selfe .

Answer .

In this part of your Preface , you arrogate truth to your owne relation , and derogate from the Protestants : to driue forward your owne Barke fraught with vntruthes , you fill your sailes with the breath of your owne praises ; assuring vs , that , for the substance and truth of the matter that you relate , there shall not bee found any falsehood . How will you assure this , when so many persons of qualitie , present at the conference , and attentiue to it , in diuers particulars testifie the contrarie vnder their hands ? You are one of the principall Gamesters , Master Fisher ; and your credit , if not your Religion , lies at stake . Bee not your owne iudge , but let the standers by determine , whether you or the Protestant Relator hath plaied faire , and aboue boord . For omissions , in regard whereof , you taxe the Protestant relation , they were in your fauour , and not to your preiudice . But because you could not see when you were well , and complaine without a cause , they are now supplied : make your best of them . For additions or mis-reports to the preiudice of any , the witnesses expresly cleere the Protestant Relatour from any such imputation : and if I should fasten any such vpon him , as you couertly would insinuate , essem similis vestri , id est , mendax . If I were the author of that relation , is it likely , that I would discredit it my selfe ? This were , messes meas vrere , to blur with my pencill a true Picture drawne by my selfe . Itaque hîc non modò crimen non haeret , sed nec Iesuitae cohaeret oratió : as you contradict the truth , so you contradict your selfe .

To conclude therefore my Answer to your Preface , and giue the Reader some light to cleer his iudgement in censuring both relations , the ciuill Law teacheth to suppose euerie man honest , vnlesse the contrary bee proued : and therefore the Protestant Relator may iustly challenge thy good opinion , vnlesse thou find some proofe to the contrary . On the contrary , Qui semel probatur esse malus , semper supponitur esse malus in eodem genere mali : whosoeuer hath been once conuinced of a crime , wheresoeuer afterward hee comes in question , is presumed alwaies to bee faulty in the same kind . But you , Master Fisher , were conuinced to your face by two witnesses , to be a false Relator and setter downe of some of my answers in a former conference : neither did you , or could you deny it : onely you blanched it ouer with protesting , that you did it not wittingly or willingly : from which starting hole you were driuen by Doctor Goad , and you haue here giuen mee a staffe to beat you out of it : for , you say , It is certaine , that No man will lye , but for his owne aduantage : but you lied , as is confessed , in setting downe and relating some of my answers , and therefore , by your owne argument , you must needs doe it for your owne aduantage ; and consequently , both wittingly and willingly .

A Table of the principall matters contained in M. FISHER'S ANSWER .

MAster Fisher , before you embarked your selfe into the maine businesse , to answer the three Chapters of the Protestant Relation , I expected , that , for the better direction of the Reader , you would haue some way analyzed your prolix Answer , and set before him a Synopsis , or Table of the specialties comprised is this your Treatise : which thing , because you haue omitted , I will doe you the courtesie to performe it for you .

The principall matters conteyned in the Answer , may be reduced to fiue heads :

1. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Vntruths . 2. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Contradictions . 3. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Idle obseruations and exceptions . 4. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Impertinences , or mal'd proposes . 5. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Vain repetitions .

Of the first Head , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or Vntruths , reade Title-page ; An Answer written by A. C. VNTRVTH : for , M. Fisher is knowne to bee the Author of it .

Preface , Page 2. D. Featly , who is said to bee the Author , hath confessed , that more is said in the Relation , then was said in the Conference it self . Vntruth : for , D. Featly was neuer questioned about that Relation , nor said hee any such thing .

Page 15. Then D. Featly , beginning to argue in this place , and not in the end of the Disputation , where the Protestant Relator placeth it , did say , I wish 〈◊〉 I warne , I command , I coniure you to answer truely ●d sincerely in the sight of God , and as you will answer it at the day of Iudgement . A double Vntruth . First , the words , I warne , I command , were neuer spoken by me . Secondly , those words , As you will answer it at the day of Iudgement , were spoken in the end of the Disputation , and not in the beginning , where you place it . See the Attestation to the Conference . In the same page , M. Sweet propounded these conditions to bee obserued ; First , that all bitter speeches should be forborne . Secondly , that ●●thing should bee spoken or heard , but to the purpose . Vntruth . The second condition was neuer propounded by M. Sweet ; which I thus prooue . Both Relations agree , that M. Sweet propounded but two conditions in all ; likewise both agree , that the first condition was , That all bitter speeches should bee auoyded . There remaines then but one condition . But all the witnesses , who haue subscribed to the Conference , doe , vpon their certaine knowledge , remember , that M. Sweet propounded such a condition ; that None but Disputants should speak . And therefore this second condition added by M. Fisher , that nothing should be spoken or heard , but to the purpose , is feigned and supposititious .

Page 16. M. Sweet did not say , as the Relator reporteth ; They are Scholasticall points , not fundamentall : neither was there any such Syllogisme then made , as the Relator annexeth . Double Vntruth . Wee haue as many witnesses , both of that Answer of M. Sweet , and D. Whites Syllogisme , made by way of Reply , as there are words in both . In the same page : In the meane while , name but one Father , one writter of note , who held the particulars aboue-named , for 500 yeeres after Christ . To which instant demand of D. Featly ( saith the Relator ) nothing was answered : but neither was this said , neither was it needfull to answer . Vntruth : for , the witnesses to the Conference , perfectly remember , & directly affirme , that it was said . Besides , this I spake out of my paper , which I haue yet to shew : and no one thing more mooued M. Bugges , and some other in the Conference , then this , that for all the Iesuites laying claime to all Ages , & boasting , that all the world was of the Popish Religion before Luther , yet M. Fisher could not name so much as one man in the world , who for 500 yeers after Christ , held the Tridentine faith ingenerall , or those points of Popery , mentioned in the Conference , in speciall ; neither doth hee yet name one in his printed Answer . Nay , hee dares not so much as name the points , for feare of giuing scandall to his owne side .

Page 20. These formall words which he reporteth M. Fisher to haue said , viz. A proofe à postetiori , is more demonstratiue , then à priori , M. Fishér did not speake . Vntruth : For , first the witnesses to the Conference remember perfectly , that he said so . Secondly , M. Alesburie , the Writer of the Conference , set downe these formall words , which are yet to be seene in the sealed Schedule . Thirdly , M. Alesburie immediately replyed vpon M. Fishers words , Heere M. Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning , in preferring a demonstration à posteriori , before that which proceedeth à priori . These words of M. Alesburie are set downe in the Protestants Relation of the Conference , and M. Fisher doth not deny them : and therefore he cannot deny those words which were the immediate occasion of that Reply .

Page 31. But D. Featly did not say all this . Vntruth : for , immediately vpon those words of mine , that the Inference of the effect by the cause , was not transitio à genere in genus , &c. D. Goad interposed , saying ; M. Sweet , You ones learned better Logick in Cambridge , then you shew now . These words of D. Goad , set downe in the Protestants Relation , M. Fisher heere denieth not : and therefore hee cannot reasonably deny the former words of mine which occasioned them . Remember , M. Fisher , better your lesson ; Mandecem oportet , &c.

Page 32. But D. White did not speak thus ; neither did he , in all the conference , make any such long discourse . Vntruth : for , first , D. White was appointed , in the beginning of the Conference , for the last houre and half to answer M. Fisher in the contrary Question , for the Visibility of the Roman Church . The first houre and half was already spent : and therefore D. White had iust occasion and reason to call vpon M. Fisher as hee did , to prooue the Visibility of the Romane Church : And as for the six points mentioned in the Conference , they were the same which D. White shewed Sir Humfrey Linde and mee before the Conference , and told vs , that he would put M. Fisher vpon the proofe of them . Secondly , those of the Auditors which sate and stood next about D. White , testifie vpon their perfect remembrance , that he called vpon M. Fisher to oppose , and propounded those six points vnto him , set downe in the Conference . In which , because M. Fisher found himself vnable to deal with Doctor White , therefore he makes bold to borrow a point of Iesuiticall honesty ; Fairly to deny , that any such points were proposed .

Page 35. M. Fisher solemnly protested vpon his conscience , that wittingly and willingly hee did neuer wrong either D. White , or D. Featly , in report of any conference . To this , nothing was replied : and therefore I suppose , that the Audience was well satisfied of M. Fisher's sincerity in his relation . Vntruth : for , D. Goad immediately replied , that what M. Fisher wrote , was for his owne aduantage : and therefore he could not but suspect , that he did it wittingly and willingly . See the Attestation to the Conference .

Page 37. D. Featly , turning to M. Fisher , said , Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles , or not ? To which M. Fisher said , I will , if you will stay : and , stretching out his hand , he took D. Featly by his arme offering to stay him ; yet he ( D. Featly ) in that abrupt manner went away . Vntruth . So many words , almost so many vntruthes ; and , God be thanked , there are witnesses enow to conuince the Counter-relator of a fignall and transcendent leasing in this last passage . See the Attestation .

I might furnish this Head and common place of M. Fisher , with many more instances ; but these may suffice , to prooue , that M. Fisher deemeth himself one of those that haue past Thyle ; who , if we may beleeue * * Ep. 148. Conceditur ijs qui Thylem transierunt , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Synesius , may lie by authority , and without controule .

Of the second Head , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Contradiction , reade

Page 14. Hee alleageth my words thus : Although this Question be grounded vpon vncertain and false Supposals : For , a Church may haue been visible , yet not the Names of all visible Professors thereof now to be shewed , &c. And again , page 32. Are all visible Names vpon Record ? Are all Records in former times now to bee produced ? And again in the same page , M. Sweet , calling for Names of Protestants , well might say , If Protestants had been in all Ages , their Names in euery Age might bee produced : vnto which , as the Protestant Relator saith ( and the Counter-Relator denieth not ) , D. Featly replied , saying , This is a non sequitur . And page 19. he propoundeth my Argument thus : That Church which holdeth this faith you beleeue ( not we ) , shall be so visible , that the Names thereof may be shewed in all Ages . But the Protestant Church holdeth this faith : * * See the Protestant Relation of the Conference , page 21. line 23. Ergo. And again in repeating the like argument , That Church whose faith is the Catholique and Primitiue faith , once giuen to the Saints , is so visible , that the Names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages . To this Maior Proposition I added , page 21. The Maior is ex concessis : neither doth the Counter-Relator deny , that these words were added . Yet page 49. M. Fisher , in his Letter to the Earle of Warwick , saith , They are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook , as they stand more engaged than before ; hauing now professed and acknowledged , that the true Church , or ( to vse their owne words ) the Church which is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee , is able to name Professors in all Ages .

CONTRADICTION .

Doctor Featly professeth & acknowledgeth , Contradiction the first . that The true Church ought to be so visible , as that it is able to name professors in all ages .

Doctor Featly holdeth not , that The true Church ought to be so visible , &c. but disputed ad hominem , and ex concessis aduersarij , not according to his owne iudgement .

Page 32. M. Fisher had no reason to diuert to particular matters , in regard it was his Aduersaries fault , to spend so long time in impertinent Syllogismes . And page 48. Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proof to haue consisted in this , that The true Church ought alwaies to be so visible , as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named . But the Protestants was the true Church . We refused to dispute of the Minor , because it transferred the Question . And in many other places , he cals my Argument , from the truth of faith to the Visibility of the Church , A diuersiue Proof . And page 34. Dilatory and i●pertinent Syllogisms . Yet Page 23. he saith , In asking which is the true visible Church , wee ask , at least vertually , which is the true faith , in regard the true visible Church cannot bee without the true faith : yes therefore doo we ask which is the true Church , that of it we may learn what is the true faith . And page 69. line 14. That the right order of things requireth , th●● first it onely be disputed , to whom the faith belongeth : which is all one ( say you ) as if he should say , Which is the true visible Church ?

CONTRADICTION .

In the Question touching the Visibility of the true Church , it is impertinent , and a diuersion , to dispute of the true faith .

In the Question of the visibility of the true Church , Contradiction the sec● it is not impertinent nor a diuersion , to dispute of the true faith ; because the Question of the true faith is , vertually at least , included in the Question of the true Church .

Page 37. Doctor Featly in his rising , turned to Master Fisher , saying , Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles , or no ? To which Master Fisher said , I will , if you will stay ; And in the same page , Master Fisher did not prohibit him ( Doctor Featly ) to begin with the names of Christ and his Apostles . And againe : M. Fisher expressed his yeelding to dispute about Christ and his Apostles two seuerall times ; once thus : I will dispute of them in due place . Another time thus : I wil , if you wil stay . Yet Pag. 64. he writeth thus , M. Fisher and M. Sweet still kept the Aduersary to the point , and would not permit him to diuert , either to dispute about Christ and his Apostles , or any other point , vntill names were giuen in all ages ; The which course they tooke vpon iust and good reason . And Pag 65. hee alleadgeth two reasons for it . See them there . And Page 71. M. Fisher had good reason and right to deferre disputing with him ( D. Featly ) out of Scripture , of Christ and his Apostles , vntill he had made his full induction of names .

CONTRADICTION .

Master Fisher permitted Doctor Featly to dispute about Christ and his Apostles . 〈…〉

Master Fisher permitted not Doctor Featly to dispute about Christ and his Apostles .

Master Fisher expresly yeelded , that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles .

Master Fisher yeelded not that D. Featly should begin with Christ and his Apostles , Contradiction the fourth . nor dispute about them , nor any other point , vntill names were giuen in all ages .

A curious eye might easily discerne many more contradictions in this Answer of Master Fisher : but these may suffice to veri●ie the truth of that obseruation , or , to speake more properly , that obseruation of the truth , to wit , that she vsually taketh this reuenge of her aduersaries , that they who contradict her in the beginning , contradict themselues before the end : for truthes are alwaies concords , but false-hoods are very often discords , euen among themselues .

Of the third Head 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or idle obseruations , and friuolous exceptions .

Page 13. Any man reading this parcell of the Conference , would bee induced to thinke , that Doctor White & Doctor Featly were summoned on the 〈◊〉 to this Conference . And what if he should think so ? In the same Page : The Relator would make 〈◊〉 Reader beleeue , that Master Fisher had set the figure of 2. in the middle of the question . Grande 〈◊〉 A most horrible falsification , to set the figure 2. before the second part of the question . You you● self at that place set two points there , thus ( ● ) and added a second whether : therfore it could bee no irremissible sinne in the Scribe , or rather the Printer , to distinguish the parts of the question really and verbally diuers , by prefixing the figure 2. to the latter part of it . Is not this to fish for Banstikles ? If you catch no better stuffe in your net , by my consent , you shall be called no more Master Fisher , but Master Minnow-catcher .

Page 14. The Relator would make men beleeue , that Doctor Featly had deliuered the state of the question , memoriter . And Page 16. Diuers particular points rehearsed by the Protestant Relator , which hee ( Doctor Featly ) read out of a paper . A capitall accusation . Is any proposition the truer , or Argument the stronger , because 't is said by hart , or memoriter ? Piere Daubignie , the French Iesuite of your Order , thanked God , that hee had a singular gift of forgetfulnesse ; that , what hee heard in confession , it presently ran out of his memory . This gift of forgetfulnes is not now so rare ; therefore you might haue spared this obseruation : howbeit , if my memory had been so short and sandy , that I was not able to commit a doozen lines , or thereabouts , to memory ( if I had intended it ) , they were very much too blame , that made choise of mee , first at Oxford , and afterwards at London , to preach the rehearsall Sermons . A very vnfit taske for a Piere Daubignie to haue vndertaken .

Page 35. Master Fisher , hearing this slander , did rise vp , and solemnly protest . And Page 36. Master Fisher , rising vp , with his hand and 〈◊〉 , &c. And what if hee had protested , sitting 〈◊〉 Vnlesse the Relator , Master Fisher , would intimate , that hee is alius stans , alius sedens ; or that the speech hee vttered standing , were not so discreet as his other , because the Parasite in the Poet saith , Plus sapio sedens : I haue more wit when I sit .

Page 63. It no way sorted with the gray 〈◊〉 and grauity of a Doctor , and a Deane , to haue laughed and fleered so much , as Doctor White did , &c. 〈◊〉 for Doctor Featly , both his lookes , speeches , 〈◊〉 and gestures were such , as did not become him ; 〈◊〉 might better haue beseemed a Stage-player , then a Doctor , and an Archbishops Chaplaine . As if ( f●rsooth ) none were fit to bee a Deane of a Church ▪ or an Arch-bishops Chaplaine , but such a one as Crassus , sirnamed Agelastus , was , who neuer laughed but once in all his life ; and that was , at sight of an Asse eating thistles : whereupon the prouerbe grew , Similes habent labra Lactucas : such Lettice , such lips . Had you set downe in you● Relation the true cause of Doctor Whites laughter , the Reader , though a Crassus , would as heartily haue laughed , as hee or I did : for , such oc●casions were diuers times offered in the confe●rence by you and your Companion , that 〈◊〉 of your Romish spleen-bound Catholicks 〈◊〉 now and then a smile at your absurdities . If 〈◊〉 had meant to barre all manner of harmlesse 〈…〉 and innocent laughters vpon a sudden occasion giuen , you did ill to choose Master Sweet ; you should haue chosen Master Sowre to haue been your Assistant . You your selfe , Master Fisher , as graue a child as you are , Page 34. make the Reader and your selfe very merry with my Buttery book ; for which you deserue to be sconsed . Yet all the punishment I wish you for it , and the rest of your friuolous , ( if not ridiculous ) obseruations and exceptions in your booke , is that wherein Domitian is said to haue taken much pleasure , to weet , to dart a whole after-noone at Flies with a neat and slender iron bodkin .

Of the fourth Head , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or Impertinences , reade

Page 18. & 19. To that answer of mine , you haue a purpose , M. Fisher , to cauill : you know my meaning well enough , by the tearm perpetuall ; to weet , That Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it , and shall still continue vntill his second comming . You reply : If this were said by D. Featly , hee should haue considered , how hee and D. White cauilled vpon the word , Whether and And , when they knew M. Fisher 's meaning well enough ; yea , after they had heard him plainely explicate his meaning : whereas M. Fisher onely put them in minde to speake properly like Schollers , and did not cauill or reply , after that D. Featly did explicate his meaning . Chius ad Choum . Is it all one to expound a tearm , & to confound two distinct Questions ? to explicate in what sense a man taketh an ambiguous word , and to speake perfect * * See the introduction to the defence . non-sense ? to speak as ordinary men speak , and to speak as no man speakes ? I called faith eternall in that sense , as the Apostle calleth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , the eternall-couenant , Heb. 13. and as Saint 〈◊〉 calleth the eternall Gospell , Apocal. 14. and as Tully prooueth the soules to be eternall , in his Tusc. Quest. And will you say , that none of these spake properly or like Schollers ? Yet lest you should happely mistake aeternum , for , ab aeterno , I added to the word eternall , perpetuall ; most plainely to explicate my meaning . And therefore your exception at the word eternall , thus expounded , could be nothing but a meere Cauill ; which you your selfe perceiuing , in your later thoughts you help the matter , after your manner , with a mentall reseruation , otherwise called , a lie ; saying , page 18 : To this M. Fisher answered , first , excepting against the word eternall , saying ; Faith is not eternall , or ab aeterno . Which words , ab aeterno , were indeed ab externe ; strangers , new thrust into the Conference . Neither did I in my Argument ▪ nor you in your Answer , vse those words 〈◊〉 aeterno .

Page 22. To that Syllogisme in the Conference , viz.

That Church , whose faith is eternall , and p●●petuall , and vnchanged , is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be , and as the Popi●● Church , by M. Fisher , is pretended to be .

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall , perpetuall , and vnchanged :

Ergo , The Protestant Church is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to bee , and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to bee :

You answer , That the Maior is not vniuersally true , for that there may be a Church or company , who may haue inward faith , eternall and vnchanged : As for example , A Church of Angels , who , for want of visible professors , are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be . Quid ad Rombum ? What is this instance to the purpose ? I dispute of the Church on earth : you answer of the Church in heauen . I dispute of faith : you answer of vision . I dispute of a Church succeeding in all Ages : you answer of a Church , in which there is no succeeding , nor Ages . I dispute of a Church visible in all Ages : you answer of a Church visible in no Age. I dispute of noble Confessors & Martyrs , who haue sealed the profession of the Christian faith with their bloud : you answer of immortall Spirits . In a word , I dispute of men , named in good Authors , and Histories : you answer of Angels , whose names are written in heauen , and were neuer vpon visible Record , except two or three named in the Scriptures .

Page 31. To those words of mine , I neuer heard that the inference of the effect by the cause , was transitio à genere in genus : such was my Argument ; for faith in a beleeuer , produceth profession and confession thereof ; You reply , That M. Sweet 's Logick is not lesse to bee esteemed , if hee had tearmed that 〈◊〉 ( to weet , proouing the effect by the cause ) transitio à genere in genus : for , a cause as a cause , an effect as an effect , doe not onely differ specie , but also genere : and besides , a proofe à priori and à posteriori , are diuers kindes of proofes .

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : I dispute of a transition à genere in genus , in rebus : you answer of a transition in notionibus . I speake of a straying from the subject of the Question : you answer of passing through diuers heads of Logick in proouing . I speake of genus in Scientijs : you answer of 〈◊〉 in the predicables , or predicants : so well , in defence of M. Sweet , you obserue M Sweets pretended Law , of speaking nothing but to the purpose . But certainely you saw not the But , and somissed the mark , reading M. Sweets Law without it , thus : Item 2. That nothing should be spoken to the purpose . Euery Puney in Logick can tell you , that the meaning of transitio à genere in genus , is the proouing of a conclusion in one science , by the principles of another distinct from it ; and no way subalternall to it : As for example , To demonstrate a conclusion in Physick , by principles in Geometrie ; or to demonstrate a conclusion in naturall Philosophy , out of a principle or principles in Morall Philosophy . But if your interpretation of transitio à genere in genus , should stand , euery demonstration of the effect by the cause , à priori , or of the cause by the effect , 〈◊〉 posteriori , in the same Science ; should bee a transitio à genere in genus , because , as you say , the cause as a cause , and the effect as an effect , differ genere : for which ignorant Arguing , as M. Sweet was prickt by D. Goad in the Conference , so you , M. Fisher , for your more ignorant and grosse defence of it , deserue to be sent to fustitudinas ferricrepinas Insulas , vbi viuos homines mortui incursant boues .

Page 65. You alledge this for a reason , why you refused to answer Christ & his Apostles , for that ( say you ) All disputation about particulars , before the true Church were , by her perpetuall Visibility , or some such euident marke found out and knowne , would haue beene fruitlesse and endlesse which was the reason why M. Fisher in another former conference , had with a certaine Minister , would not enter into any particulars , vntill he had asked these generall Questions : First , what ground the Minister would stand vpon , & c ? 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ? Heer you bring-in , by the head and eares , a Conference of yours with a worthy Minister , and an acute Disputant , touching the merit of works . What is this to the Visibility of the Protestant Church , or a Catalogue of Names ? If this bee not transitio à genere in genus , I am sure it is transitio à Quaestione in Quaestionem , a vagring from one Question to another sufficiently distant ; neither was there any cause at all giuen you of this digression : for , I drew you not to dispute about any particulars , but proceeded to prooue the generall Question proposed by your self , to weet , that The Protestant Church was so visible in the first Age , that the Names of those that taught the Protestant faith , might be produced ; viz. Christ , his twelue Apostles , Saint Paul and Ignatius : to whom after you had giuen your Answer , Whether they taught our faith or yours , I would haue gone on , in like manner , in naming the Professors of the Protestant faith in all Ages . Now then , let the Reader iudge , whether this your digression into a long tale of a conference of yours with a Minister touching merits , were any way necessary or pertinent .

Page 68. 69 , 70. You alleage many Sayings out of Tertullian's golden Book of Prescriptions , to prooue , that Hereticks , who reiected the authority of the Apostolicall and Mother Churches , and refused also some Scriptures , or peruerted the Text by additions and detractions , should not be admitted to dispute with Orthodoxall Christians out of Scriptures : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . The sentences indeed you cite , are golden , but you apply them most leadenly : for , what Protestant ( whom , by a ridiculous 〈◊〉 principij , or begging the Question , you stile Hereticks ) , what Protestant ( I say ) euer reiected the authority of the Apostolicall or Mother Churches , as they were in the Primitiue Times ; much lesse , either refused or peruerted any part of parcell of the Canonicall Scriptures , by addition or detraction ? Wee attribute much more to the holy Scriptures , and the ancient Mother-church ( of which , Tertullian speaks ) , who receiued the Originall of Scriptures from the Authors themselues , then you do : we willingly put our whole cause in their hands : wee renounce any Article of faith which cannot be prooued to haue been held by the Apostles and their heires , Tertullian speaks of . Prooue , that the Apostles , or the Primitiue Churches immediatly founded by them , held your Trent-faith , or those twelue new Articles added by Pope Piu● in the end of that Councell , and imposed vpon all Professors to sweare vnto ; and then I will acknowledge , that the Romane Church hath a good title to the Scriptures . And if we prooue not ; that we hold the ancient Primitiue faith , wee will acknowledge , that we haue no right vnto them , nor will we desire to be admitted to dispute out of them . Therefore vntill M. Fisher or some other , shall prooue by some other marks , than bare alleaging of the Popes names locally succeeding one another in the Sea of Rome , that they are the heires of the Apostles , we haue a most iust cause to try the title of the true Church with them , and bring the last Will and Testament of our Lord and Master , for our prime Euidence and surest Deed , to make good our plea.

Of the fift Head , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , or vain repetitions .

For the exemplification of this rare point of eloquence , bequeathed to you as a Legacy in euery line and sentence of Battus his Will and Testament , I need not alleage , as I haue done before , particular leaues and pages : for , you might far better haue intituled your whole book , A Battologie , than an Apologie , or , An 〈◊〉 pamphlet intituled , The Fisher catched in his own Net .

A judicious friend of mine , to whom I sent your Book at the first comming out in Print , and demanded of him his iudgement of it , returned it back again in the words of the Poet ; I lle referre aliter saepe solebatidem .

Another said , M. Fisher's legible Tautologies in this printed Defense , were as irksome and tedious , as his audible , dilatory Answers and Te●giuersations in the Conference . A third said , He was sure , that M. Fisher aduised with the Poet Martial ; who professeth , that rather than his Book should perish , by reason of the finall 〈◊〉 of it , hee would fill vp as many pages , as 〈◊〉 cobbles verses , with that Catholique Pateh , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Ergo ne pereat bre●ibus mihi charta li●ellis ▪ Dicatur potiùs , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

To repeat particularly your vain repetitions , would bee to commit the fault I reprehend in you , euen in the reprehension thereof : and I might feare to heare an allusion to that of Plat● against Diogenes ; Fastum caleas , sed 〈…〉 : so I might be thought to cry down a Cuckoo , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . And therefore , passing them in 〈◊〉 , from the contents of your Book , I hasten to 〈◊〉 Text.

Touching the occasion and issue of the Conference .

Protestant Relation .

EDWARD BVGS , Esquire , about the age of 70. yeers , being lately sick , was sollicited by some Papists then about him , to forsake the protestant faith , telling him , There was no hope of saluation without the Church ; There was no Catholike Church , but theirs .

Master FIHSER's Answer .

How farre this parcell of the relation is true or false ; I will not stand to discusse , as not yet knowing how , or by whom the afore-said Gentle-man came first to doubt of his Church , and consequently of his religion , &c.

Doctor FEATLYE's Reply .

Although I might take occasion by the counter-relation of the occasion of this conference , to reueale diuers mysteries of the reserued Art of Iesuitical frauds & falsehoods ( for as they say in a Lamprey , so in this whole treatise from the beginning to the ending there is a string of poyson ; throughout ) yet because the occasion of the conference but little concernes the cause , & less me , in sparing the Iesuites blame , and penance , I will spare mine owne paines , and the Readers 〈◊〉 ; who ( I perswade my selfe ) will not much regard how wee came into the field : but how wee acquitted our selues vpon the place , for the papers sent to the old Gentle-man ( which impudently thrust themselues vpon vs at euerie turne ) in the occasion , Page 7. and 〈…〉 Conference , and afterwards in the 〈◊〉 Page 48. and 49. and 60. Although they 〈◊〉 been met withall by Master Rogers , Master Walker and diuers other , and stabbed thorow and thorow againe with their 〈…〉 shall haue ouer and aboue , my 〈…〉 Asteriskes , when my tractate of the visibiliti●●● the Church ( which hath laine by mee in darknes for the space of a yeere ) shall vpon some good occasion become visible and see the light . As for the relation of matter of fact , so farre as concerneth the occasion of this Conference where the Protestants Relation and the Iesuites walke fairely together , there needs no conte●ting Answer , where they clash or 〈◊〉 one another . I can answer no otherwise than the O●ator doth in the like kinde , Accusatar dicit , Marcus S●●●rus negat : Vtri ●redemus ? A Iesuit disparageth som passages in the Relation ; a worthie Knight of knowne integrity , who procured the meeting for the satisfaction of his kinsman ▪ Master 〈◊〉 auoweth them , as followeth . 〈…〉

The answer of S. Humfrey Lynde , touching diuers passages in the Protestant Relation , about the occasion and issue of the Conference , excepted against by the Iesuite .

COncerning the occasion of the Conference , I a●ow , that ( according to his Maiesties command ) I did set downe the truth of the occasion briefely and faithfully , to my best remembrance , as is alreadie extant in print . And whereas ( fol. 4. ) Master Fisher saith , hee set downe two questions with my consent , and the old Gentlemans ; the first whereof being allowed by both of vs , Master Fisher wrote , It is granted ; I affirme , that in processe of discourse , I then allowed , that the Church is more or lesse visible at all times : but , that I did grant a necessity of such visibilitie as hee intendeth , or that I obserued what M. Fishers marginall note was , I vtterly denie . And wheras ( page 12. ) Master Fisher complaineth of the inequalitie of the Auditorie , compared with the few which Master Fisher brought : To this I say , that , vpon my credit , I did not acquaint four persons with the meeting , more then those that I inuited to dinner . Howsoeuer , I doubt not , but that hee is rather glad he had no more Auditours of his owne side ; and by this time , is more asham'd of his cause , then of the paucitie of his parties th●re present . And yet I will let him know ( for the small acquaintance I haue among the Papists ) I was able to number full twentie of that side present . And verily , had I purposedly drawn thither so much company , the Iesuites ought me thanks for it , as therein deseruing well of the Catholique cause , by bringing a troup of spectators , to view the foyle of our own side , in a question reputed by the Iesuites so disaduantageous to vs : wherin , forsooth , the Protestants ( as is triumphed , page 33. ) are so farre from being able to produce three professors in euerie age , t●at they are not able to name one ; to say nothing of Christ and his Apostles ( for , they were not worthy to bee answered ) not one Author ; no not one Actor that dares oppose two such learned Iesuites in such a triall . Again ( page 16. ) whereas it is said , there was an vnseasonable motion made by Sir Humfrey Linde to Master Sweet ; I answer , that I was induced for certaine reasons , then to mooue Master Sweet to dispute vpon Transubstantiation . First , the standers by did well perceyue , that the old man Master Fisher was much woorried , and the Auditory much wearied with his saying nothing , and writing little to the purpose . Secondly , a Romified Lady being present , and being troubled with those dull and weake answers , did then intreat me to interpose , and dispute of Transubstantiation for her instruction . And lastly , I adde , that I had proposed this question to Master Sweet at my house , 8. weekes before , where his leasure then would not giue him leaue to dispute of it : and now I conceiued , he was wel armed for a second encounter . Againe , where it is related in the Conference , that I told M. Buggs , that the Church was in Christ and his Apostles , &c. The Iesuite saith in the margent there , A weaker Refutation , as is shewed in the insuing Discourse . A very weake and insufficient answer , as is shewed hereafter . Surely the Iesuite had a weake memorie , and forgot a farther Reply ; or else other answer hee could not make to disproue it . Neither , by Master Fishers leaue , was it so weake and insufficient an answer as hee gaue me , when , vpon his first meeting , falling into conference about the Reall presence , which Master Fisher would prooue out of these words , Hot est corpus meum ; I answerd , that Scotus , & Cameracensis , and Bellarmine , were of opinion , that that Text was not strong enough to enforce Transubstantiation . To which obiection , hee gaue this Answer as a full satisfaction to the standers-by : What care I for Bellarmine , or Scotus , or Cameracensis ? Againe , by Master Sweets leaue , it was not so weake and insufficient an answer , as when I propounded to him foure questions , viz. The worship of Images , Praier in an vnknowne tongue , Communion in one kinde , and Transubstantiation ; with this assurance , in the presence of Recusants , that if he could proue either all , or but any one of those , held by the ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church , according to that forme of doctrine prescribed in the Councel of Trent ; I would then subscribe to Popery . All his answer was , that hee brought a booke that would proue them all . So for that time I was content , hee should bee saued by his booke . But Doctor Featly ( in whose hands hee is now ) will not let him escape so easily ; but , calling him into the inner barre , will finde , that non legit vt Clericus . At that time Master Sweet farther added , that hee for his part had other businesse , and could not intend to argue with mee about those questions . If his superior had heard him , certainly hee would haue enioyned him penance , for neglecting so fai●e an opportunitie of conuerting such an Hereticke as hee takes mee to bee : hee knowes , there ought to bee no businesse pretended , where there had been a possibility to make a proselyte .

Lastly , concerning the issue of the Conference , I auow and protest , that old Master Bugs came then to me , and gaue mee thankes in the same roome before his departure , and told mee , that he well perceiued , it was be the great brags of the aduersaries for their Church ; that hee well perceiued , they could say but little for it : and withall , hee did acknowledge himselfe to bee so well satisfied at that time , that he professed vnto mee , that if his sonne would not leaue his religion , and the priests company , he would leaue him , &c.

HVMFREY LYNDE .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the first , touching the entry into the Conference .

DOctor White , and D. Featly , beeing inuited to dinner by Sir Humfrey Lynde , and staying awhile after , had notice giuen them , that M. Fisher and M. Sweet , Iesuites , were in the next room , ready to conferre with them touching a Question set downe by M. Fisher , vnder his owne hand , in these words , viz.

First , Whether the Protestant Church was in all Ages visible , and especially in the Ages going before Luther ; and secondly , Whether the names of such visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed and prooued out of good Authors .

This Question beeing deliuered to the parties aboue-named , and it beeing notified vnto them , that there were certaine persons who had beene sollicited , and ( remaining doubtfull in Religion ) desired satisfaction , especially in this point , they were perswaded to haue some speech with the Iesuites touching this point ; the rather ; because the Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers , and disperse them in secret : in which they vaunt , that no Protestant Minister dare encounter them in this point .

Master Fisher his Answer .

First , any man reading this parcel , would be induced to think , that D. White & D. Featly had neuer had notice before , for what end they were inuited to dinner , or for what end they were to meete with the Iesuites ; but that they were on the sudden summ●ned to this Conference , without any preparation , or knowledge of the Question : which not to be so , is euidently conuinced , partly , by that which is already said , partly ▪ by that which I am after to say .

Secondly , this Relator would make his Reader beleeue that M. Fisher , vnder his owne hand , had set downe the words of the Question , distinguished with the expresse figure of 2. which is not so : for M. Fisher did not write any such figure of 2. in the middle of the Question , nor did not meane to make any more then 〈◊〉 onely entire Question , as Sir Humfrey himselfe had desired .

Thirdly , he seemeth willing to perswade , that Priests and Iesuites doe daily cast out papers : which is not true .

Doctor Featly his Reply .

The Heathen accounted it an ominous thing , offendere in limine , to stumble as a man is going out a-doores , in lifting his legge ouer the threshold . You do so , M. Fisher : you stumble at the first setting your foote out a-doore , and ( which is farre worse ) you stumble at three strawes .

The first is , that ( forsooth ) any man reading this parcell , would beleeue , that D. White and my selfe were on the sudden summoned to this Conference . And what if he should beleeue so ? What doth this aduantage our cause , or preiudice yours ? It matters not much , how wee came to this encounter , but how we came off . Yet are there no words in the Relation , which imply any such thing , that wee came sudden or vnprouided ; nay , whosoeuer reades the first Chapter , touching the occasion of the Conference , cannot but perceiue that wee had notice of it before , and came prouided . The truth is , for mine owne part , I knew of it two daies , and no more , before the meeting ; and I excepted against the day appointed , as beeing too neere , and sudden , for a man to prepare , either to oppose or answer in so spacious and ●ast a Question , 〈◊〉 from Christ to L●ther : yet beeing ouer-intreated to be there as an Assistan● onely , in the 〈◊〉 yeelded .

The second straw you stumbled at , is , That the Relator would make the Reader beleeue , that M. Fisher put a figure of 2. at the second part of his Question . And what if the Reader did so beleeue ? It is certaine , that there is a second 〈◊〉 in your Question . And what 〈◊〉 then had it beene , to set before the second Vtrum , the figure 2 ? Howsoeuer , there was no fault in the Protestant Rela●our , but in the Printer , who mistooke the interrogatiue point in the copy ( ? ) for the figure 2. In the originall written Relation , there was no such figure infarced . The Printers tripping is not to be taken for a stumble of the Relators : nay , it is rather maruelled , that he tripped no more , beeing so hastie to 〈◊〉 without his err●nd . And to thrust out a Relation without direction & authority of the like stamp , is that error of the Printer , Page 20. line 6. where the originall copie went thus , 〈◊〉 againe , those of M. Fisher 's side calling for 〈◊〉 , Where are your names ? D. White said , This is nothing but apparant tergiuersation , &c. The shallow Printer , not vnderstanding this passage , inuerted the sentence thus : D. White said , Where are your names ? and thereby wholly peruerted the sence , D. White called not for names , but 〈◊〉 the Popish Auditors for vnseasonably and vnciuilly calling for names , when M. Fisher was at a stand .

The third straw you stumble at , is , That the Protestant Relator seemeth to say , that the Priests and Iesuites cast out papers , &c. You say this is not true , and yet you your selfe here mention three such papers scattered by you ; and I haue receiued a fourth , written by your man ; and Sir Hamfrey Lynde hath seene a fift ; and M. Walker & M. Rogers , a sixt and seuenth . Whereunto also they haue returned Answers ; the one in print , the other in written hand . Let the Reader then iudge , whether the Protestant Relator any way ouerlashed , in charging you with the dis-spreading of such papers .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the second , touching the state of the Question to bee disputed of .

At the beginning of this Meeting , when the Disputants were set ; D. Featly drew out the paper , in which the Question aboue-rehearsed was written , with the words in the Margent , viz. I will answer , that it was not ; and demanded of M. Fisher , whether this were his owne hand : which

Doctor Featlie's Reply .

You talke of prescribing methods and proportions to be obserued on both sides , as if wee fought vnder your banner , or were to receiue the law from you . Who made you dictator ; and M. Sweet your Magister equitum , that you take vpon you to enact Martiall Law , for sacred 〈◊〉 in the truthes quarrell ? Verily , if you prescribe no better lawes in this kind then those that are set downe in the Conference , and auowed in your defence , viz.

In a good Syllogisme , to answer to the conclusion ; To distinguish on a proposition , and apply it to no learn ; To prooue an effect alwaies by an effect , because a● effect is posterius , &c. you are fitter to bee a Law-giuer among the * * Alogi , a sort of Hereticks . Alogi , then the Logicians ; inter Alogos , then Logicos .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the third , touching the conditions to bee obserued by the Disputants .

M. Sweet . Before you proceed to dispute , desire , these conditions may be assented 〈◊〉 on both sides ;

First , that All bitter speeches bee forborn ; Secondly , that None speak , but Disputants .

Master FISHER .

About this time , M. Sweet propounded these conditions to be obserued .

First , That all bitter speeches should be for borne .

Secondly , That nothing should be spoken or heard , ●ut to the purpose . Which second he did propound , to preuent impertinent digressions .

Doctor FEATLY .

This second condition was not propounded by M. Sweet at the Conference , as is prooued in the Attestation , page 40. but is since deuised by M. Fisher , to set a faire Glosse , and colour on his and M. Sweet's miserable shifts and euasions : responsum nullum dant praeter vnicum , quod semper dant nihil ad propositum : whatsoeuer they are not able to answer to , that is with them nothing to the purpose . To the instance in fifteene nouelties of the Romish faith , M. Sweet answered , as you report , page 16. that Those things were then impertinent , and nothing to the purpose . To Sir Humfrey Lynde's motion to M. Sweet , to dispute of Transubstantiation out of Saint Austen , M. Sweet answered , That is not now to the Question . To my proofe a priori , of the Visibility of the Protestant Church . M. Sweet answereth , page 19. That is not to the Question : you ought to prooue the truth of your Church , à posteriori . That is to the Question . To giue some relish and taste to these vnsauory Answers of M. Sweet's , You faine a Prouiso of his , which indeede is a Procudo of your owne ; That M. Sweet answered this according to law , for there was a Law ( forsooth ) made , That nothing should be spoken or heard , but to the purpose How those things aboue-al-leadged , were to the purpose , and touched the very ▪ Apple of the eye of the Question , shall bee shewed in due place . In the meane time , let the Reader note , that M. Fisher taketh more liberty , then the fained supposititious decree of Geneu● , giueth him : for , that alloweth a man , onely to lie for Gods honour ; but heere M. Fisher coyneth a lie , onely for M. Sweet's credit .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the fourth , touching the Inuisibility of the Romish Church for more than 500 yeeres after Christ .

Before I propound my Argument , I craue leaue in few words to lay open the vanity of the vsuall discourse , wherewith you draw and delude many of the Ignorant and Vnlearned . You beare them in hand , that there was no such thing in the world as a Protestant , before Luther ; and that all the world beleeued as you doo ;

That your Church hath not been onely visible in all Ages , and all times , but eminently conspicuous and illustrious . Which is such a notorious vntruth , that I heer offer , before all this Company , to yeeld you the better , and acknowledge my selfe ouercomne , if you can produce out of good Authors ( I will not say , any Empire or Kingdome , but ) any City , Parish or Hamlet , within fiue hundred yeers next after Christ , in which there was any visible assembly of Christians to be named , maintaining and defending either your Trent-Creed in generall , or these points of Popery in speciall ;

That there is a Treasury of Saints merits , and superaboundant satisfactions at the Pope's disposing ;

That the Laity are not commanded by Christ's Institution , to receiue the Sacrament of the Lord's Supper in both kinds , &c. then to answer them , yet certainly it is now most needfull . If you mean not to answer them , at least repeat them . This you dare not doo , for feare your disciples should take offence . You dare not pull away the curtain , lest your nakednes should be seen . You are wise in your owne generation : you knowe how to keep those in the dungeon , whom you hould in captiuity . They must not see a glimpse of light , lest they should look after more . You forbid your Captiues to reade our Relations ; and in your owne , you slubber-ouer whatsoeuer toucheth you neer . You well knew , M. Fisher , that Antiquity neuer knew your drossie treasure of superaboundant satisfactions , nor your dry suppers without the Lords Cup , nor your solitary Communions without Communicants , nor your vnintelligible praiers , nor your ignorant de●otion , nor your irregular canonizing of Traitors , nor your painted flames o● Purgatory , nor your cony-catching Indulgences , nor any of the like new trash . And therefore you doo well and wisely heer not to lay these blocks for your blinde children to stumble at , which neither you , nor all the Iesuits in Christendome are able to remoue .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the fift , concerning the parts of the Question . D. Featly .

There are two Quaeres in your Question : First , Whether the Protestant Church were in all Ages visible ; and secondly , Whether the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages can be shewed , &c.

M. Fisher.

There are not two Quaeres or parts in the Question : it is but one Question .

D. White .

Where there are two Propositions , with two distinct Vtrums , there are two Questions , &c.

M. Fisher.

Conclude any thing syllogistically , D. Featly .

D. Featly .

And is a Coniunction copulatiue , and must adde somewhat to That that goes before . It is all one , as if you should expound the words of the Apostle , Prouide honest things before God and men ; before God , that is , before men .

Master FISHER'S Answer .

My Question is meant to be but one entire Question . And so , to cut off all needlesse wrangling ( made by D. White and D. Featly about the Aduerb Vtrùm , whether , and the Copulatiue et , and ; as if Grammar-scholars had been disputing , rather than graue Diuines , who were not to stand on rigour of Grammar , especially in this case , where the sense of the speaker is plaine , and may well stand with Grammar ) Master Fisher said , The question being mine , it pertaineth to mee to tell the meaning : and my meaning was onely to make is one question , viz.

Whether the Protestant , Church were so visible , as the Names of visible Protestants in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors ?

Wherefore if you will dispute , you must dispute in my sense , and must conclude the affirmatiue , viz. The Protestant Church was so visible , as the Names of the professors in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors .

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply .

First , the parts of your question are distinguished really : for a Protestant Church may haue beene visible in many Ages , and yet not the names of visible Protestants liuing in those Ages now to bee produced , as your selfe confesseth in effect , page 33. line 23. Wee doe not require , that all visible mens names should bee vpon record , nor all records produced .

Secondly , they are distinguished formally in words , whether the protestant Church , &c. And whether the Names , &c.

Thirdly , they are distinguished by points : for in the middle of your question , before the second part of it , you your selfe put a colon thus ( : ) .

Fourthly , you distinguish them your selfe in your answer , in the written copie which I haue : for to the first part you answer in the margent , It was not : which answer was not , nor can bee applied to the latter part .

Either the parts of your question are distinct in sense , or out of question you propound them senslesly , whether and whether , two whethers , meaning but one . Admit the construction you giue of the first part , viz. Whether a Protestant Church were visible in all Ages , that is , so visible , as the Names of visible Protestants may bee shewed : what construction then will you make of the latter clause , & whether the Names may be shewed ?

Is not this iust like Battus his spell in the Latin Poet ; — Subillis Montibus , inquit , erant , et erant sub montibus illis :

Or the like of the French : Car com● ' vn' Aigle mountant an clair soleil . Car c'estoite vn' Aigle mountant an clair soleil .

It is as if I should propound such a question : Whether Iesuites be so honest men , that they will not equiuocate , and whether they will not equiuocate ?

Or whether the letters in a small print are so visible that they may bee read , and whether they may bee read ?

Or whether the parts of this question are so distinguished that they are not altogether confounded , and whether they are not altogether confounded ?

But you say , I am bound to dispute in your sense . What sense mean you ? The sense that is to be made of your words , or the sense which you make by your mental reseruation ? It seemeth you are so vsed to your Iesuitical Cabala , that you cannot in your disputing but smacke of it . I am bound to dispute with you , you say , in your sense . I grant you : am I therfore to dispute with you in your non-sence ? But you say , that it is for Grammar Scholars to argue about the Aduerb Vtrum , and the copulatiue et and. Tell your great Clark , Cardinall Bellarmine , so , who wier-drawes your Sacrifice of the Masse out of the Copulatiue ( et ) and : And he was a Priest of the most high God , &c. and your Transubstantiation , out of the Pronoune , hoc : Hoc est Corpus , &c. & your Popes supremacie , out of the Pronoune , tibi : Dico tibi Petre , &c. Doth not Saint Austen presse Grammaticall Arguments against Cresconius the Grammarian ? Nay , doth not Saint Paul himselfe presse a Grammaticall argument Against the Iewes ? Gal. 3. 16. &c. Non ex seminibus , sed ex semine ; Not of seedes , as of many , but of thy seed , as of one .

How many ancient and later Diuines ( whose bookes you are not worthy to carry after them ) haue substantially proued the Trinity , by a Grammatical Argument drawne from the Plural Number , Faciamus , Let vs make man ; yea & the Trinitie in vnity , by an Argument founded vpon the construction of a Verbe Singular with a Nowne Plurall , Elohim , that is , Dij crea●it . It is no disparagement , Master Fisher , for the greatest Clarke to remember his Grammar : But he , who so farre forgets his Grammar as you doe , deserueth to be turned back to the Grammar Schoole , and to haue his Garmmar-Rules better imprinted into him with a Schoole-Masters Ferula , or somewhat else . Yea , but Aquila non capit Muse a● : you are a high flyer , and therefore scorne to strike at a Flie : Yet take heed of such Flies , lest you bee choked with one of them , as your Pope Adrian was . Such dead Flies as you heere swallow , are able to corrupt and spill a whole boxe of the sweetest Oyntment .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the sixt , touching the pretended necessitie of naming Protestants in all Ages . Master Sweet .

What need you stand so much vpon this ? If there were visible men , certainely they may be named : name your visible Protestants , and it sufficeth .

Name visible Protestants in all Ages . A Romanist standing by .

D. Featly .

It seemes you are nominals , rather then reals , you stand so much vpon naming : will you vndertake to name visible Papists in all Ages ?

If neither you , The same Romanist standing by . nor wee can name visible professors of our Religions in all Ages , for ought I know , the best way for vs is , to be all naturall men .

D. Featly .

This is the right reason of a Naturall .

M. Sweet .

If there were visible Protestants in all Ages , certainely they may bee named .

D. Featly .

That is a non sequitur , for the reasons before named by me . What say you to a people of Africa , who , if we may beleeue Pliny , haue no names at all ?

M. Boulton .

Yet they haue descriptions , and may be knowne by some periphrasis .

D. Featly .

What say you then to the Hereticks called Acephali , who are so called , because their Head & Author cannot be named , nor particularly described , yet the Author was a visible man ? Are all visible mens names vpon Record ? are al the Records that were in former times , now to be produced ?

Heere diuers of M. Fishers company called , Names , Names , Names .

D. Featly .

What ? will nothing content you but a Buttery-book ? You shall haue a Buttery book of names , if you will stay a while .

Master FISHER'S Answer .

To this obiection ( touching the Acephali ) M. Boulton answered , that those Acephali held some particular Doctrine , which did amount to the nature of a name , sufficient to distinguish them from others , insinuating heereby , that these Acephali were not Anonymi .

Further it may be answered , that it is not certaine , whether they had any particular Author : for some say , that they were a company , who in the controuersie betwixt Iohn the Bishop of Antioch , & Cyril of Alexandria , behaued themselues like Neutrals , submitting themselues to neither as to their Head . Others think , that they were certaine men , who , beeing the Fauourers of Petrus Mogus Moggus . the Heretick , did afterwards renounce him from beeing their Head , because he would not accurse the Councell of Chalcedon . Others say , that one Seueius , Bishop of Antioch , was their Author .

But howsoeuer this particular were , it doth not conclude , that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestants faith ; whereof no story , nor other antient Monument maketh mention of names , or opinions , or places of aboad of any of them , or of those who opposed them , as Stories make mention of some of these circumstances both of the Acephali , and whatsoeuer other eminent professors of euery true or false Religion . Wee doe not require , that all visible mens names should bee vpon Record , nor all Records produced . For , although to prooue such a visible Church as that of our Sauiour Christ , described in Scripture , to bee spred ouer the world , a small number of visible Professors bee not sufficient , Lib. de vnitate Ecclesiae . as Saint Austen prooueth against the Donatists ; yet to shew how confident wee are of our cause , wee for the present onely require , that Three eminent Protestants names in all Ages , be produced out of good Authors . But they are so farre from beeing able to produce three , as they cannot name one in euery Age ( as is cleerely proued in the Protestants Apology ) neither indeed can they abide with any patience , when they bee much pressed in this point , as appeareth by diuers who haue beene vrged , and in particular by D. Featly in this Conference ; who hauing beene called vpon seuerall times to produce Names , as hee had vndertaken at one time , he burst foorth into these words , set down by the Protestant Relator : What ? will nothing content you but a buttery-book ? you shall haue a buttery-book , if you will stay a while . Note ( Reader ) this Doctors want of grauity and patience , and what a fit title he giues to a Catalogue of names of Protestants , who indeed are more like to be● found in a Buttery-book , then in any good Record of antiquity , as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther , who , after his Apostasie , more respected the Buttery , then any Ecclesiasticall Story .

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply .

In the Answer to this Paragraph , first , you shake hands with the Acephali : afterwards , you salute the Donatists : in the end , you take vp your lodging with the Spright of the buttery ; in whose company , it seemes , you take most delight . About the yeere 480. To beginne with your Acephali . These Acephali were a shole of Hereticks , bred ( as it should seeme ) of the spawne of Eutyches & Dioscorus : for they held , that there was but one nature in Christ , viz. the diuine , which they affirmed to haue beene crucified . These differed from other Hereticks , in this especially ; That whereas other Hereticks for the most part took their names from the Author and Head of their Sect , ( as the Arians from Arius , the Nestorians from Nestorius , &c ) ; these Hereticks , because their first Author could not bee certainly knowne , were termed Acephali from 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 priuatiuo , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , signifying a Head ; as if you would say , Head-lesse Hereticks . So that , as Pliny writes of the herb Anonymos , nomen non inueniendo inuenit , that it took it's name Anonymos , from the want of a name ; so it may be truly said of these Hereticks , that they took their name from the want , or at least , ignorance of the name of their parent and first Author . Thus your Alfonso deduceth , and expoundeth their name : Haeretici Acephali dicti , Alfonsus a Castro aduersus Haereses . l. 4. sic nominati sunt , 〈◊〉 simul insurgentes , nullus repertus est , quiillarum esse● princeps atque magister . The Hereticks tearmed Acephali , were so named , because multitudes of them rising together , there was found none , who might be their Head and Master . Neither doe you in your Answer contradict , but rather confirme this Etymology , by rehearsing diuers and sundry opinions touching their Head and Author . Which variety of opinions , and difference of Authors about him , plainely argueth , that no certainty was , or can be had of him , who he was , and much lesse what was his proper name . Wherefore , distrusting your former Answer , you adde a second , saying , Howsoeuer this particular were , it doth not conclude , that there could be in all Ages visible professors of the Protestant faith , whereof no Story nor other antient Monument maketh 〈◊〉 of names , or opinions , or places of aboad of any of them , 〈◊〉 of those who opposed them . I grant , it doth not conclude so much , neither was it brought to conclude so much : it prooueth sufficiently what intended , viz. That your Question is grounded vpon a false Supposal : it cutteth M. Sweet's reason in the hams , If there were visible Protestants in 〈◊〉 Ages ; then certainly they may bee now named . The Head and Author of the Heresie of the Acephali was , I suppose , a visible man : yet can he not now , nor , for ought appeares , could he then , when hee broched his Heresie , be named . In like manner , the 7000. that neuer bowed their knees to Baal , and all your Ancestors descending from Noah , were certainly visible men : yet can they not now be all named ; and therefore M. Sweet's Argument , ab authoritate negatiue , and à negatione vocis ad negationem rei , is a poore fallacie , fit to bee ranked with that which they wrongfully fasten on my Argument à priori , viz. petitio principij , or the begging the Question .

I wil not say , that in disputing about the Acephali , you shew your selfe 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : but certainly in that which followeth , you shew your self 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , else you would not so ignorantly apply Saint Austens proofes in his Book against Donatists , to disprooue our Church . For it is well knowne , that we teach with Saint Austen , that Christs visible Catholique Church is dispersed farre and wide ouer the face of the whole earth . But you are the Donatists of our Age : for , as the Donatists confined the Catholique Church of Christ , to Africa , and therein , to the Sect of Donatus : so you also restraine the Church of Christ to Rome , and the Popes adherents . Aug. Epist. 80. ad Hesychium . We teach with Saint Austen , Non Romanos , sed omnes gentes Dominus semini Abrahae media quoque iuratione promisit : That God promised with an oath to Abraham , not the Romans , but all Nations for his seed . We beleeue , that wheresoeuer the Scriptures are receiued , and Christs Sacraments administred , God calles some by ordinary meanes ; and consequently there is a Christian Church ( though neuer hearing of Rome , or Papall Iurisdiction ) who are ordained to saluation . Wee account all that professe the name of Christ , & Doctrine of the Gospell , to be members of the visible Catholick Church ; yet with this difference , some are sound members and parts , others vnsound , and these more or lesse . Wee doubt not , but Christ hath his flock vnder the Turk and Tartarian , and Mogol , in Asia , Africa , Europe , yea Italy , and Rome it selfe , euen in the denne of Antichrist . And therefore we are the true Catholicks , who maintaine verè Catholicam Ecclesiam , a Church truly Catholicke : and you are the Donatists and Masters of the separation of these times , who damne all sorts of Christians , saue those who are content to receiue the mark of the Romish Beast in their fore-heads . What then speake you of three Protestants to be named in euery Age ? Although our Sauiours words are most true , Mat. 18. Where there are two or three gathered in my name , there am I. And although Tertullians inferences from those words , Exhort . ad virg. are most true , Vbi tres sunt , Ecclesia est , licèt Laici sint : Where there are three , de poe●it . there is the Church , yea though those three bee Lay-men : and , In 〈…〉 Ecclesia est , the Church is in one or two men : yea Alensis , and diuers among you , remembred by Tostatus , Prolog . in Euangel. affirme , that from the time of Christs suffering , vntil his resurrection , sides in sol● remansit beata Virgine , that onely the blessed Virgin perseuered in the faith ; and consequently , that the Church subsisted for that time onely in her . Yet God be blessed for it , wee need not to fly to any such defence . We shall bring into the field , pares aquilas , nay , plures aquilas , more ensignes and banners then you , yea incomparably more , for the first and best Ages : and if you exceed vs in the latter , I wish you to remember , that in time , in liquors , the lees and mother gathers towards the bottome : and a spoonefull of pure wine is better then a Hogs-head of dregs .

Yea , but we are so farre from beeing able to produce three Protestants in all Ages , as we cannot name one in euery age . How proue you this ? Forsooth M. Brierly hath prooued it to your hand . A beggerly Rapsodist , whose patched cloak is already all to-be-tome by one of our noble Mastiues , and the ragges that remaine , as I am informed , will be shortly by another puld away . Were M. Brierly a man of better iudgement , and more integrity then our worthy Morton , now Lord Bishop of Couentry and Litchfield , hath prooued him to be : yet beeing a knowne Papist , to alleage meerely his work and words , to mee is but a dry kinde of proofe ; and therefore you did well in this place , to knock at the Buttery-dore .

And heere I intreat the Reader to note , how the very name of the Buttery reuiues the Iesuite . In all the other passages of his Book , there is nothing that pretends to wit or mirth : but heer he is very pleasant , now his dull wit is whetted : he was not able in all the Conference , nor since in his Answer , to send out such a flash . Will you know the reason ? The Spright of the Butterie possesseth him , and thus he diuines ; The Protestants cannot abide with any patience , when they bee much pressed in this poynt , as appeareth by diuers that haue been vrged , and in particular by Doctor Featly in this Conference , who hauing been called vpon to produce Names , burst forth , &c.

It is true , I burst forth , not into a passion , as you would make the Reader beleeue , but into a laughter , as did the rest of the company : neither did I by any gesture or speech , discouer my impatience , but your folly , who , when I alledged you reasons and testimonies , were not content with them , but called for emptie names , &c. And what was this , but to call for a Colledge Buttery-book ; which is nothing but a Register of the names of such as are in that societie ? If the sprite of the Butterie had not obfuscated your braine , & surprized your iudgement , you might haue vnderstood , & plainly perceiued , that I compared not a Catalogue of noble Confessors and Martyrs of the Catholique Protestant faith , to a Buttery-book ; but such a Catalogue as you then required , and you vsually bring , to proue the visiblity of your church , viz. a companie of names , and nothing else ; testes sine testimonijs , witnesses deposing nothing for you . And , may not such emptie Catalogues be fitly compared to Butterie-books ? Note , Reader , say you , what a fit Title hee giueth to a Catalogue of Names of Protestants ; who , indeed , are more like to bee found in a Butterie-booke , then any good Record of Antiquitie , as hauing had their beginning of late in one Martin Luther ; who , after his apostasie , more respected the Butterie , then any ecclesiasticall storie .

I maruell not , that you , Yeomen of the Popes Butterie and Pantry , and the Blacke-gard of Rome , haue a sharpe tooth against Luther ; who , by burning the Popes haruest of Indulgences , hath made the Catalogue farre lesse of those that brued for the Friers Buttery , and baked for the Popes Kitchin . Certainly , if Martin Luther had so fat a belly as you paint him with , hee did but hold that which hee got among you : for , after hee for sooke Sodom ( which you Apostataes call apostasie ) hee so hated and detested the gluttony and drunkennesse of Monks and Friers , and so sharpely inueighed against them , that Erasmus sometimes spake as truly as wittily of him ; That though hee otherwise highly esteemed of him , yet hee could not but confesse , that hee was much too blame in two things ; that hee presumed to touch the * * Both being No●me ta●gere . Popes Crowne , and the Monkes bellie . Wherefore seeing Luther deserueth no better of your fraternities , strike him out of your Butterie-booke , and put Father Parsons in his place , the grand Master of your new equiuocating Religion , or religious equiuocation , because , good man , his name was strucke out of the Buttery-booke of Bailliol-Colledge in Oxford ; and hee expeld , for falsifying the Butterie-booke , and thereby cozening , and purloining the Students of that Colledge .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the seauenth , touching the comparison betweene a proofe à priori , and à posteriori . Doctor Featly .

That Church , whose faith is eternall , is so visible , that the Names of some professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages .

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall and perpetuall : Ergo.

Master Fisher.

Faith eternall ? Who euer heard of faith eternall ? Saint Paul saith , that faith ceaseth .

Doctor Featly .

You haue a purpose , Master Fisher , to cauill : you know my meaning well enough by the terme perpetuall , to wit , that Christian faith which hath continued from Christs first publishing it , till this present , and shall continue till his second Comming . The Church which houldeth this faith , you beleeue , shal be so visible , that the Names of the professors thereof may bee shewed in all Ages .

But the Protestant Church holdeth this perpetuall faith : Ergo.

Master Fisher.

Your Argument is a fallacie , called , Petitio principii .

Doctor Featly .

A demonstration à causa , or à priori , is not Petitio principij .

But such is my Argument : Ergo.

Is it not a sounder Argument , to proue the visibility of the professors from the truth of their faith , then ( as you do ) the truth of your faith from the visibilitie of professors ? Visible professors argue not a right faith . Heretikes , Mahumetanes , and Gentiles , haue visible professors of their impieties : yet will it not hence follow , that they haue a right beliefe . On the contrary , we knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture , that the Church which maintaineth the true faith , shall haue alwaies professors , more or lesse visible .

Master Sweet .

You ought to proue the truth of your Church à posteriori , for that is to the question , and not à priori .

Doctor Featly .

Shall you prescribe me my weapons ? Is not an Argument à priori , better then an Argument à posteriori ? This is , as if in battell you should enioyne your enemie to stab you with a knife , and not with a sword or dagger . I will vse what weapous I list : take you what buckler you can .

Master Fisher.

A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue , than à priori .

Heere Master Fisher sheweth his Academicall learning , in preferring a demonstration à posteriori , A Protestant standing by . before that which proceedeth à priori . Is not a demonstration of the effect from the cause , better then of the cause by the effect ?

In this place , or vpon the like occasion againe offered , neerer the end of the disputation , Master Sweet replied .

M. Sweet .

This is to diuert the question . The question is not now , Whether our faith or yours bee the Catholicke primitiue faith , but the question now is of the effect , to wit , the visibilitie of your Church , which you ought to proue out of good Authors .

Doctor Featly .

May not a man proue the effect by the cause ? Is there no other meanes to proue the effect , but by naming men , and producing authors for it ?

Master Sweet .

An effect is posterius ; the question is about an effect : therefore you ought to proue it à posteriori .

Doctor Featly .

What a reason is this ? May not an effect bee prooued by his cause ? Must an effect bee needs proued by an effect ? or à posteriori , because an effect is posterius ?

Master FISHER'S Answer .

Thus farre the Relator , who hath heere added much more then was said : and in particular , those formall words which he reporteth Master Fisher to haue said , viz. A proofe à posteriori is more demonstratiue , then à priori , Master Fisher did not speake : perhaps hee might say , That a proofe à posteriori doth better demonstrate to vs , then à priori ; not meaning in generall to preferre a Logicall demonstration à posteriori , before that which is à priori ; but that such a proofe à posteriori , as hee in this present question required , and as the question it selfe exacted , would better demonstrate or shew to all sorts of men , which is the true Church , then any proofe which Doctor Featly or D. White can make à priori , to proue the Protestant Church to bee the true Church , as shall be shewed when need is , heereafter . At this present , it may suffie●●● say , to that which Doctor Featly now obiecteth against the proofe taken from visibility , that Although all kind of visible professors doe not argue right faith , yet want of visibile professors argueth want of Christs true Church . For , supposing it to bee true which euen D. Featly himselfe heere saith ( according to the Protestants Relator ) viz. wee knowe by the promises of God in the Scripture , that the Church which maintaineth the true faith , shall haue alwaies professors more or lesse visible , and ( as Master Fisher further proued in one of the foresaid papers , giuen to the old gentleman before this meeting ) so visible , as their Names in all Ages may bee shewed out of good Authors ; supposing also out of Doctor Whitaker , contr. Dur. l. 7. p. 472. that Whatsoeuer is foretold by the antient Prophets , of the propagation , amplitude , and glorie of the Church ; is most cleerly witnessed by Histories ; and supposing lastly , out of Doctor Iohn White , in his way , p. 338. That things past cannot bee shewed to vs , but by Histories . Supposing all this ( I say ) , it is most apparant , that if there cannot bee produced ( as there cannot ) Names of Protestants , or of any other professors of Christian faith in all Ages , out of Histories , to whom Gods promises agree , besides those which are knowne Roman Catholiques : not Protestants , nor any other but onely the Roman Catholiques are the true church of Christ which teacheth the true faith ; and of which , al sorts are to learn infallible faith necessary to saluation .

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply .

I maruel not , M. Fisher , that you leaue M. Sweet in the suds : for , you haue much adoo , with all your strength and skil , to get yourself out of the mire . M. Sweet , since he left our Vniuersities , and was metriculated into your Society , seemes ( to speak in our Academicall Phrase ) to haue resumed gradum Simeonis , and to haue proceeded backward : for , whatsoeuer truth , in Logick or Philosophy , hee had learned in our Schools , he hath learned to vnlearn in yours . It seemeth , he hath met with some such Master as Timotheus the Musician was ; who took double pay of his scholars , for vnteaching them what they had learnd of others . Hee was taught in our Schools , that an effect cannot be scientifically proued or demonstrated , Arist. analy● . poster . l. 1. c. 2 but by the cause : for , Scire , est causam scire propter quam , &c. and Demonstratio is Syllogismus scientificus , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a scientificall Syllogism , proceeding of those things that are former in nature , and more knowne , and causes of the conclusion . All this he hath vnlearned , and will needs go about to perswade vs , that An effect , because it is posterius , must needs be proued by an effect ; and by the same reason , that effect , by another effect ; and Thirdly , the Romane or Westerne Church ought to bee distinguished from the Papacie , or mystery of iniquity in it ; which is not the Church , but a preualent and predominant faction in it . The Romane Church we acknowledge to bee a member ( though a sick and weak one ) of the Catholique visible Church ; and consequently , to haue some part in the gracious promises made to the Church , in the Gospell : but the Papacy , or that predominant faction , is no member , but a botch or an aposteme in the Church ; to which none of those promises belong , yet many prophesies are cleerly fulfilled in it .

First , 1. Tim. 1. 4. Now , the Spirit speaketh expresly , that In the later times some shall depart from the faith , giuing heed to seducing spirits , and doctrines of diuels , forbidding to marry , and commanding to abstain from meats , which God hath appointed to be receiued with thanksgiuing . This Prophesie hath been fulfild in the Papacy euer since Pope Hildebrand's time ; Auent . annal. Boior . l. 5. edit Basil. ad Pern . p 448. in which , as Auentin●● reports , the people in some places trod vnder foot the Hoasts that were consecrated by married Priests : Tales enim non esse sacerdotes , neque sacrificare , Hildebrandus docebat : for , Hildebrand taught , that such were no Priests . And again , Maritos ab vxoribus separat , scorta , pudicis coniugibus : stuprà , incestus , adulteri● , casto praefert matrimonio : Hee seuered men from their wiues : he preferred harlots before married wiues ; fornication , adultery , and incest , before chaste marriage . And likewise in the Papacy that part of the Prophesie is fulfilled , touching the forbidding of certain meats ; as for example , flesh , and egges , and white meats , and the like , and that for conscience sake , and vnder paine of deadly sin , and accounting such abstinence meritorious .

Secondly , that Prophesie in 2. Thes. 2. 9. Comming , after the power of Satan , in all power of signes and lying wonders , is daily fulfilled in the Papacy , and no where else . See their Legends , old and new .

Thirdly , that Prophesie , 2. Pet. 2. 18. They allure by the lusts of the flesh , through much wantonnesse , &c. is fulfilled in the Papacy , which permitteth publick Stews , I might say , alloweth , because who keep those houses , do therefore pay a pension to the Pope .

Fourthly , that Prophesie , Iude 16. speaking great swelling words of vanity , is fulfilled in the Papacy ; which teacheth , that the Church of Rome is the Mother and Queen of all Churches ; that the Pope cannot erre ; that hee is aboue the Law of God ; that those who adhere to him , can more than merit heauen : they can supererrogate .

Fiftly , that Prophesie , 2 Pet. 2. 3. and Apoc. 18. 3. The Merchants of the earth are waxed rich , through the abundance of her delicacies . Through couetousnesse , shall they with feigned words make Merchandize of you , and the like in the Apoc. is fulfilled in the Papacie , which draweth an infinite treasure , by the Merchandize of pardons and indulgences for releasing soules out of Purgatory .

Sixtly , that Prophesie , 2. Thes. 2. 4. Hee as God sitteth in the Temple of God , shewing himselfe that hee is God , is verified in the Papacie , which giueth the Pope the stile of Lord God , Head of the Church , Lyon of the Tribe of Iuda , &c. and power to dispence with breach of oathes , and incestuous marriages , &c.

Seuenthly , that Prophesie , 2. Thes. 2. 7. The mystery of iniquity doth already worke : onely hee who 〈◊〉 letteth , will let , vntill he be taken out of the way , and 〈◊〉 shall that wicked man be reuealed . This I say , according to the interpretation of the Fathers , Ter●●l and Chrysostome , De Resurrectione . is fulfilled in the Papacie . Tertullian saith Romani imperij absessi● , in decem Reges diuisa , Antichristum superinducit : The decay of the Romane Empire , diuided into 〈◊〉 Kings , Homil. in 2. Thes. shall bee the bringing in of Antichrist . Chrysostome giueth some more light , saying , When the Romane Empire shall be taken away , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . then hee shall come . Now all the world seeth , that the Papacie is built vpon the ruines of the Romane Empire , and at this day possesseth the seat thereof .

Eightthly , that Prophesie , Reuel. 9. 3. & 7 ▪ There came out of the smoke Locusts vpon the earth , &c. and on their heads , were ( as it were ) Crownes , &c. agreeth to your swarmes of Monks and Friers : and one of your own Expositors interpreteth their Crownes , the round circle vpon your shauelings head , like vnto a Crowne .

Ninthly , That Prophesie , Reuel. 13. 11. And I beheld another Beast comming vp out of the earth , and he had two hornes like a Lamb , and he spake as a Dragon , and hee exerciseth all the power of the first Beast , &c. agreeth to the Papacie and Pope , who resembleth Christ , whose Vicar hee calleth himselfe , and yet carrieth himselfe like a Dragon in the Church , and he exerciseth also the power of the first Beast , to weet , the Romane Empire , described in the first verse , by seuen heads and ten hornes , because , as the first Beast , the Romane Empire , by power and temporal authority , so the Pope , by policie and spirituall iurisdiction , ruleth ouer a great part of the world .

Tenthly , that Prophesie , Reuel. 13. 18. Let him that hath vnderstanding , count the number of the Beast , for it is the number of a man , and his number is 666. agreeth to the Pope , as I shewed before out of Irenaeus . L. 5. aduersu● Haeres . c. 30. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 nomen habet 666. et valdè verisimile est , et nouissimum regnum hoc habet vocabulum : Latini enim sunt qui nunc regnant : that is , that name Latinus hath in it these numerall letters , which make vp 666. and this is very like to be the name of the Beast : the last Kingdome hath this name , for they are Latines who now rule . Arethas agreeth with Irenaeus in iudgement , as Feuer dentius himselfe noteth .

Eleuenthly , that Prophesie , Reuel. 17. 3. I saw a woman sit vpon a scarlet-coloured Beast , full of names of blasphemie , hauing seuen heads and ten horns , and verse 9 , The seuen heads are seuen hils , on which the woman sitteth . and verse 18 , The woman is the City which reig●eth ouer the Kings of the earth , agreeth with the Papacy , as Saint Ierom teacheth vs .

Twelfthly , Epist. 17. ad Eustochium , c. 7. et l. 2. aduer. Iouinianum . that Prophesie , Reuel. 17. 4. The woman was araied in purple and scarlet color , and decked with gold , and precious stones , and pearles , hauing a golden cup in her hand , full of abominations and silthinesse of her fornication : & supra , verse 2. With whom the Kings of the earth haue committed fornication , and the inhabiters of the earth haue been made drunk with the wine of her fornication , agreeth to the Papacy , which is set forth in most pompous manner , and enticeth the Kings and people of the earth to idolatry , which is spirituall fornication .

Thirteenthly , that Prophesie , Reuel. 17. 6. And I saw the woman drunken with the bloud of the Saints ; and with the bloud of the Martyrs of Iesus , agreeth to the Papacy or Romish Synagogue , which hath spilt the bloud of many thousand protestant Martyrs , since the 1000 yeer ; in with , Satan was let loose , vnder the name of Waldensian and Albigensian hereticks , & the like names of reproach .

Fourteenthly , that Prophesie , Reuel. 17. 16. 17. And the tenne horns shall hate the Whore , &c. for , God put in their hearts , to giue their Kingdome to the Beast , till the Word of God be fulfilled , agreeth to the Pope and Papacy ; to which , the greater part of the Kings of the earth , after a sort , gaue their Kingdomes , by submitting themselues , and subiecting their Kingdomes to the Antichristian Yoke . But now ( God bee blessed ) diuers Kings and States , whose eies God hath anointed with the eye-salue of the Spirit , haue discouered the abomination and filthinesse of the Whore of Babylon , and begin to hate her , and make her desolate : and wee doubt not , but in time other Princes and States will ioyne with them , and perfectly accomplish this Prophesie , by stripping her naked , and eating her flesh , and burning her with fire .

Now to sharpen my weapons a little vpon M. Fisher's Whetstone , Confingant tale quid Haeretici : confingant tale quid Papistae : Let the Papists feine some such like thing : let them deuise , if they can , any Protestant Church , or any other society or person in the world , in which the marks of Antichrist aboue-described , are so conspicuously to bee seen , as in the Romish Synagogue , and the Head thereof , and then I will confesse , I haue spilt all my paines in deciphering these characters : but , till they haue brought some man , State , Society or Church in the world , in whom the former marks are more visible , than they are at this day in the Romish Church and her Head , I shall bee euer of the opinion of that learned Iudge and States-man , who said pleasantly , that , If the Pope of Rome were not Antichrist , he had very ill luck : for , if there should be a proclamation or warrant , to send for a man described by such marks as Antichrist is in the Apocalypse , without all question , the Pursuiuant would attache and bring the Pope of Rome .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the eightth , touching the demonstration of the Visibility of the Church , by the eternity and immutability of faith . Doctor Featly .

That Church , whose faith is eternall , perpetuall , and vnchanged , is so visible as the catholick Church ought to be , and the Popish Church by M. Fisher is pretended to be .

But the faith of the Protestant Church is eternall , perpetuall , and vnchanged :

Ergo the Protestant Church is so visible , as the Catholick Church ought to be , and the Popish Church is pretended by M. Fisher to be .

M. Fisher.

I distinguish the Maior . That Church , whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged , so as the names can be shewed , is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be , and as M. Fisher pretends the Roman Church to be , I grant it .

That Church , whose faith is perpetuall , and vnchanged , yet so , as the names cannot bee shewed in all Ages , is so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be , and as M. Fisher pretends the Romane Church ought to bee , I deny it . To the Minor I apply the like distinction , and consequently to the conclusion in the same manner .

Doctor Featly .

What ? Answer you to the conclusion also ? This is a straine of new Logicke .

Master FISHER'S Answer .

This Argument , as it is set downe , is so far from being a demonstration ( whose propertie is , To conuince the vnderstanding ) as it is not a probable or morall perswasion : for , I am verily perswaded , that no wise man ( not alreadie possessed with Protestant opinions ) will or can bee so much as morally conuinced , or in any sort probably perswaded by it , that Protestants bee the true visible Church , more then a man ( in case of doubt ) can be by the like Argument , which a man may make , to proue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of , as any in all the parish , thus :

Those who are in heart true honest men , are as well spoken of , as any in all the parish .

But I and my brethren are in heart true honest men : Ergo.

As this proofe is not able to make any man , not partially affected , to beleeue these men to be well spoken of , or to bee honest-men : so neither can Doctor Featlies proofe make any wise man beleeue Protestants to bee the true visible Church , or to haue the true faith .

Secondly , if the terme , That Church , bee vnderstood onely of a particular Church ( as for example , the Church of England ) it is so farre from a Logicall demonstration , as it hath not in it any Logicall Forme , according to any of the vsual moods , Barbara Caelarent , &c. But if it bee vnderstood vniuersally of euerie Church that is or may bee , then both Maior and Minor are false : and so it cannot bee a demonstration , whose propertie is , To consist of most certainly true propositions . The Maior in this latter sense is false , for that there may be a Church or companie , who may haue inward faith , eternall , and vnchanged ( as for example , a Church of Angels ) who , for want of visible profession , are not so visible as the Catholique Church ought to be . The Minor is false also : for , the Protestant Church hath not the true primitiue faith , neither is that faith they haue , vnchanged ; but so often changed , and so much subiect to change , as one may say ( as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants ) What they hould this yeere , I doe in some sort know : but what they will hould next yeere , I doe not knowe . Which is true , in regard they haue no certaine and infallible rule , sufficient to preserue them from change . But if Doctor Featly shall say , that hee neither meant the tearme , That Church , in either of the aforesaid senses , but meant to signifie by it , That one , holy , Catholique , and Apostolique Church , which the holy Scriptures doe shew both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith , and also to bee perpetually visible , then indeed the Maior is true ; but the Minor is most false : and so the argument is farre from being a demonstration ; especially , when it endeuoureth to proue magis notum per ignotius , viz. the visibilitie ( which is easily knowne ) by the truth of Doctrine ( which is more hard to be knowne ) especially by onely Scripture . Of the sense whereof ( according to Protestants , who say , The whole Church may erre ) no particular man can bee infallibly sure : for if the whole Church or companie ( to whom Christ promised the Spirit of truth to teach them all truth , may erre , then much more may euerie particular man erre : and consequently , no particular man can bee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture .

Thirdly , this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question ; for in asking which is the true visible Church , or congregation of the true faithfull , wee aske , at least vertually , which is the true faith : in regard the true Church cannot be without this true faith : yea therefore doe wee ask which is the true Church , that of it , being first knowne by other marks , wee may learne what is the true faith in all points , in which wee yet knowe not what is to bee held for true diuine faith .

Fourthly , although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church , yet inward faith alone , without some outward profession , by which it is made visible or sensible , doth not sufficiently make a man to bee a member of the visible Church .

Let D. Featly looke back vpon his Argument , and tell vs what Academicall learning taught him to call it , A demonstration à priori .

Doctor FEATLY's Reply .

I know , diuers learned men haue beene of the opinion , that Aristotles Demonstrator doth dwell vnder the same roofe , with Tullies Orator , and Xenophons Prince , & Castilians Courtier , namely , Sir Thomas Moores Vtopia , extra anni solisque vias . To vndertake to make a demonstration , consisting ex veris , primis , immediatis , prioribus , notioribus causis conclusionis , is all one , saith Ludouicus Viues , as if to cure a most dangerous disease , a Quacksaluer should promise a strange receipt made of foure simples ; the first whereof is found in India ; the second , amongst the Ceres ; the third , in the Riphean Hilles ; and the fourth , in the nest of a Phenix . If that demonstration which they call potissima , the soueraigne demonstration , and non par●iell , containing the quintessence of al necessarie proofe ( consisting of all tearmes reciprocall , and all propositions inabled , and qualified with those three degrees of necessitie , so called , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , & 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , de omni , per se , et quatenus ipsum ) were any where in vse , it should seeme to bee in the Mathematicks , the most certaine Science , and fullest of euident demonstrations : but Pererius the Iesuite , and others with him , vndertake to prooue , that the Mathematicians vse no such demonstrations : and therfore many Logicians and Philosophers conclude , that such absolute demonstrations , exalted to the highest degree of necessity , presently conuincing and captiuating the vnderstanding , are meere imaginary speculations . Let the Philosophers and Logicians , among themselues , end this controuersie . I will pronounce sentence peremptorily on neither side . But setting aside that Idea of demonstration , and speaking of such demonstrations à priori , or à causâ , as are vsually found in Scholastick Diuinity , I will maintaine this Syllogisme to be a good demonstration ( as demonstrations go ) , current against all M. Fisher's and M. Sweet's Logick .

The Church holding the perpetuall faith , grounded on the eternall Gospell , hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith .

The true Church of Christ holdeth the perpetuall faith , grounded on the eternall Gospell :

Therefore the true Church hath perpetuall visible Professors of that faith , &c.

For the Maior or first proposition , it is partly grounded vpon Christs promises rehearsed before , in the setting downe of the state of the Question , touching the Visibility of the Church , assertion the fourth ; and partly vpon that Text of the * * Rom. 10. 10. Apostle , With the hart man beleeueth vnto righteousnesse : and with the tongue , confession is made vnto saluation .

The Minor or assumption is most necessarily true , because this eternall faith is the formall cause , constituting and making the true Church ; for , Gasp. Lauren. De public , disputat . as Laurentius rightly argueth , Homines non constituunt Ecclesiam , quat●nus simpliciter sunt homines Europei , Romani &c. sedquatenus sunt fideles : ergo fides & doctrina fidei , est causa formalis & interna Ecclesiae , et per eam Ecclesia constituitur , et per eandem dignoscitur : Men make not the Church , simply as they are Europeans , or Romanes , or Africans , or Britans , or the like , but as they are of the faithfull , or holding the faith : therefore , faith and the Doctrine thereof , is the formall and internall cause of the Church , and by it the Church is made a Church , and distinguished from all other societies . Heere then you haue the confession of visible men to saluation , or the Visibility of professors of the sauing faith : a proper attribute , or 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , demonstrated of the proper subiect , the true Church , by the proper and neerest cause , the eternity of faith : and what more is to be required in a true demonstration , à priori ? You will say , this demonstrateth , that the true Church shall bee alwaies visible , but not that the Protestant Church . I reply , either the Protestant Church is to be supposed to be the true church , or not : if it be supposed to bee the true Church , then , hauing demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the true Church , I haue consequently demonstrated the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church ; if this bee not to bee supposed nor granted , then you should haue primarily denied this , and put vs to the proofe of it ; which beeing prooued , would inferre the Visibility : but this you did not , and ( I think ) durst not in the Conference , for feare you should haue beene presently conuinced ; yet now , since the Conference , you are growne so hardy as to deny it , and therefore thus I proue it .

A Church , holding & professing entirely the perpetuall faith , needfull to saluation , is a true Church .

The Protestant Church holdeth and professeth entirely the perpetuall faith , &c.

Therfore the Protestant Church is a true Chur.

The Maior is confessed of all sides , and must be so , because there is no saluation without the Church : where therfore the sauing faith is held and professed , there must needs bee the Church .

The Minor or second proposition is thus confirmed :

The Primitiue Catholique faith , Iud. 3. Reu. 14. 6. once giuen to the Saints , is the perpetuall faith grounded on the euerlasting Gospel .

But the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth , is the Primitiue Catholick faith , once giuen to the Saints :

Therefore , the faith which the Protestant Church holdeth , is the perpetuall faith , &c.

The Maior in this last Syllogisme is of vndoubted truth .

The Assumption is thus confirmed :

The faith deriued from the holy Scriptures , contained in the three Creeds ; The Apostles Creed , the Nicen Creed , and the Creed of Athanasius and the foure first generall Councels , is the Primitiue and Catholique faith once giuen to the Saints .

The Protestants faith is deriued from the Scriptures , and contained in the three Creeds , and foure Councels aboue-named :

Therefore the Protestant faith is the Primitiue Catholique faith , once giuen to the Saints .

In this last Syllogisme , the Maior cannot be denied by any who receyue these Creeds and Councels .

The Minor may bee confirmed three manner of waies .

First , by the publique profession , and practice of the Church of England , and other Protestant Churches .

Secondly , by deduction of each particular head of the Protestant faith , out of the principles aboue-named .

Thirdly , by the Confession of the Romish Church it selfe .

And first , it is well knowne to all who are conuersant in the harmonie of Protestant confessions , or haue obserued the practice of the Protestant Churches , that the Protestant Doctrine is , that No article of faith ought to bee beleeued , vnder paine of eternall damnation , which is not either expresly contained in Scriptures , or may be necessarily and euidently deduced from them . All the Protestant Churches reade or sing the Creeds aboue-named : and for the foure first generall Councels , there is no Protestant , who will not seale the true faith deliuered in them with his blood , if hee be cald thereunto .

Secondly , there is no particular positiue Article of the Protestant faith , which we will not vndertake to proue by Scriptures . Let Master Sweet or Master Fisher instance , where and when they will ; we will neuer refuse to meet them in this field . On the contrarie , besides those fifteen poynts set downe in the conference , there are many other Tenets of the Roman Church , which no Papist dare vndertake to proue by Scripture : & therefore , according to the maner of the ancient Heretiques , Irenaeus aduers . Haeres . l. 3 c. 2. Cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur , in accusationem conuertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum , quasi non rectè habeant , neque sint ex authoritate , & quia variè sunt dictae et quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciunt traditionem , non enim per literas traditam illam , sed per viuam vocem : When they are conuinced by Scripture , they fall on accusing the Scriptures themselues , as if they were not as they ought to be , or were not of authoritie , and that they are variously or ambiguously vttered , and that out of them the truth cannot be found , by those who are ignorant of tradition ; for that it ( viz. the truth ) was not deliuered by letters , but by word of mouth . Is not this in part your plea at this day , that the scriptures are ful of ambiguities ; that they receyue countenance & whole authority quoad nos , from the Church ; that the written Word , without vnwritten traditions , is not sufficient .

Thirdly , there is no positiue Article of our faith , which you your selues , or the learnedst among you doe not hold and beleeue as Catholique : therefore wee are on a sure ground , euen by your owne confession .

To instance in most of the principall Articles .

First , wee beleeue the Canonicall Scripture to be the Word of God : you beleeue them also to bee so , but adde vnto them the Apocrypha .

Secondly , wee beleeue the Originals of the two Testaments , in Hebrew and Greek , to bee authenticall , and of vndoubted authoritie : you ( I hope ) beleeue so too ; but you adde , that the vulgar Latin Translation is authenticall also .

Thirdly , wee beleeue the written Word of God to bee the ground of faith : you beleeue so , but adde thereunto the vnwritten word .

Fourthly , we beleeue , that Christ is the Head of his Church : you beleeue so likewise , but adde vnto him a visible Head , the Pope .

Fiftly , we beleeue , that there are two places ; Heauen for them that shall bee saued , and Hell for them that shall bee damned : you beleeue so too , but adde thereunto other places more , Purgatorie , Limbus patrum , and Limbus infantum .

Sixtly , wee beleeue , that the true God is to be worshipped in Spirit and truth : you beleeue so too ; but , you adde , that hee may bee analogically and relatiuely worshipped by Images .

Seuenthly , we beleeue ▪ that we ought to call vpon God : you beleeue so too ; but adde heereunto , that you may call vpon Saints .

Eightthly , we beleeue , that Christ is our Mediator , both of redemption and intercession : you beleeue so too , but you adde to him Angels and Saints , vpon whose intercession and merits you in part relie .

Ninthly , we beleeue ; that the Saints departed beare most ardent affection to the Saints liuing vpon earth , and pray in generall for the Church militant : you beleeue so too ; but adde , that they haue knowledge of our particular necessities , and pray to God in speciall for vs .

Tenthly , we beleeue , that Christ hath instituted two Sacraments in his Church ; Baptisme , and the Eucharist : you beleeue so too , but adde to them fiue other ; Matrimonie , Penance , Ordination , Confirmation , and Extreme Vnction .

Eleuenthly , we beleeue , that grace is annexed to the Sacraments in such sort , that all those who worthily receiue them , participate also of sanctifying grace : you beleeue so too ; but adde , that the Sacraments conferre this grace ex opere operato ( a worse Solecism in Diuinity , than in Grammar ) , and that God is tied vnto them ; so that all children , dying without Baptism , are necessarily damned .

Twelfthly , wee beleeue , that the intention of the Minister is requisite to the right administration of the Sacrament : you beleeue so too ; but you adde , that the effect of the Sacrament dependeth vpon the intention of the Minister .

Thirteenthly , we beleeue , that in the Eucharist the worthy Communicant really partaketh of Christ's Body : you beleeue so too ; but adde , that Christ is receiued orally and carnally vnder certain Accidents , the elements beeing transubstantiated .

Foureteenthly , we beleeue , that we are iustified and saued by the merits & Passion of Christ : you beleeue so too , but adde thereunto your owne merits and satisfaction .

Fifteenthly , we beleeue , that we ought to pray for all the members of Christs militant Church vpon earth : you beleeue so too ; but adde therunto , that wee may and ought to pray for the Dead also .

Sixteenthly , we beleeue and receiue the three Creeds ; the Apostles , the Nicene , and that of Athanasius , and the foure generall Councels : you beleeue them also , but adde a fourth Creed , viz. the twelue new Articles coined by the Pope , and annexed to the Councell of Trent .

Thus you see how the Articles of our beleefe are drawne out of your owne confessions . That which wee hold for matter of faith necessary to saluation , you ( and , in a manner , all the Christians in the world ) hold as we . And therefore our doctrine is Catholique , according to Vincentius Rule , quòd ab omnibus , quòd vbique , quòd semper : whereas your additions to the Catholique faith , were neuer maintained , neither by all Christians in any Age , nor by any Christians in all Ages . Neither you , nor all the Papists in the world , are able to proue any one point of your Trent-faith , wherein you differ from vs , to be Catholique .

And now let vs hear your Paralogisms against my demonstration .

Obiect . 1. First , you say , it conuinceth not the vnderstanding , and therefore is no demonstration .

Answer . This obiection of yours sheweth , that you need to be informed in your vnderstanding , how a demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding . It is not the property of a demonstration , actually to conuince the vnderstanding , but potentially or vertually . The meaning of this Proposition , A demonstration conuinceth the vnderstanding , is this ; that A demonstration hath in it power and strength to inforce the vnderstanding of any intelligent man , to assent to the conclusion , the premises beeing before apprehended by him : and euery demonstration is a Syllogisme : and euery Syllogisme proceedeth ex quibusdam positis . To illustrate this by that vsuall example of the eclipse of the Moon ; which the Astronomers demonstrate by the cause , to weet , the interposition of the earth between the Sun and the Moon . Before this demonstration will conuince the vnderstanding of any man , he must first haue the tearms expounded vnto him : afterwards he must be taught , that the Moon hath not light of her self , but receiueth it from the Sunne ; thirdly , that the Sunne casteth his light by right lines . Fourthly , it must be shewed how , in such points , called by Astronomers , Caput & cauda Draconis , the Sunne and Moone are diametrally opposed : whereby it comes to passe , that , by the interposition of the earth , the Moon is debarred from receiuing light by the Sunne-beames . And thus in the end , the vnderstanding is conuinced by this demonstration .

That which is hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne , by the interposition of the earth , is eclipsed .

But the Moon , in the points aboue-named , viz. the head and taile of the Dragon , is alwaies hindred from receiuing light from the Sunne , by the interposition of the earth :

Ergo the Moon alwaies in those points is eclipsed .

Aquinas sheweth , that the vnderstanding of a Ploughman is not conuinced by this demonstration , but onely the vnderstanding of him who is sufficiently fore-instructed in the tearms and suppositions heerunto belonging . Therefore as this demonstration conuinceth not the vnderstanding , by the bare proposall of the Syllogisme ; but , the assent hauing been before wrought to the premises , it enforceth and compelleth a rectified vnderstanding to assent to the conclusion : In like manner , I grant , that the bare proposall of my former Syllogisme will not presently conuince a man either vtterly ignorant , or in error , as I feare you are , to assent to the perpetuall Visibility of the Protestant Church . But if , as I enforced you to assent to the Maior , so you would haue but staied , and suffred mee to inforce the Minor , will you , nill you , you should haue beene compelled to yeeld to the conclusion .

But say you , in your worthy witty instance , This Argument doth no more perswade a man , that the Protestants are the true visible Church , then a man , in case of doubt , can bee perswaded by the like Argument which a man may make , to prooue himselfe and his brethren to bee as well spoken of as any in the parish thus :

Those who are in heart honest men , are as well spoken of as any in all the parish , &c.

Good Sir , let mee aduise you to obtaine a writ of remoue for the Windmill : for the whirling about of the sailes , wrought very much vpon your braine , as you were a-printing this Answer in the Cell . Had not you had a whimpsy in your head , you would neuer haue set this your Paralogisme , as a Parallel to my demonstration . In my demonstration , the Maior , rightly vnderstood , is vndoubtedly true , and de fide , as your selfe confesse , page 23. The Scripture doth shew , the holy , Catholique and Apostolique Church , both to haue perpetuall vnchanged faith , and also to bee perpe●tually visible . But in your Syllogisme , the Maior is apparantly false . If honest men were alwaies wel spoken of , how can the Apostles words stand , Sine per famam , 2. Cor. 6. 8. siue per infamiam , either by good report , or by euill report , & c ? Nay , how can the words of truth it selfe be verified , Mat. 5. 11. Blessed are yee when men speake all manner of euill against you for my sake ? Againe , perpetuity of faith is the adequate or selfe-sufficient cause of the perpetuall profession thereof : but honesty in heart is not the cause of fame , but honest and vertuous actions . It is not the inward burning , but the outward shining of our light before men , which maketh men to see our good works , and thereby glorifie God in vs for them . Yet by this your very instance and Syllogisme , wee haue the better : and therfore , this your Syllogisme may be fitly tearmed as you will haue it , A demonstration , but with this addition of Fishers folly . To be an honest man in heart , is both prius naturâ , and morally eligibilius , in nature before , and more desireable , then to be well spoken of . Mallem de me dicas , Vir bonus est , ergo bonae famae , quàmè contra . By this very argument , the Visibility of the Church is but secundarium quid , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , a secundary proofe , and a common accident to the truth of faith . And as wee therefore enquire of fame , that we may know a mans vertue : so wee therefore enquire of the true Church , as your selfe confesse , Page 23. that by it wee may learne the true faith . We seeke a guide , that we may finde the way ; and not the way , that wee may finde a guide . If I can otherwise infallibly know a mans vertue without fame , ( put case he liued in a Desart ) I will not then set it vpon the triall of fame : but in case I should faile of other proofe for a probable Argument , I would produce fame . In like manner , if wee had no other infallible proofe of the true faith , then by the perpetuall Visibility of the professors thereof , I would hold it as you doe , a point of principall moment , to enquire of the Visibility of professors : but sith we haue another more easie , direct , and infallible meanes to prooue it , viz. by comparing the doctrine with the Canonicall Scriptures ; you shall giue me leaue , M. Fisher , rather to follow this Method generally prescribed , and vsed by the Antient Fathers , as I haue shewed before , Assertion 7. then the other Method prescribed by you . Touching the Visibility of the Church . Assertion 7.

Obiect . 2. Secondly , you charge my demonstration with falshood in both the premises . The Maior you say is false , for that there may bee a Church or company , who may haue inward faith , eternall and vnchanged ; as for example , a Church of Angels , &c. An instance as wide from the mark , as the heauen is distant from the earth . Our question is of a visible Church of which all sorts of men may learne infallible faith necessary to saluation . Are Angels visible ? Are all ●orts of men to learne infallible faith of a Church of Angels ? Doe you hold it for a good interpretation , If thy brother offend thee , tell the Church ; that is , tell the Angels , or a Church of Angels ? Although Christ bee the Head of Angels , and they make a part of the triumphant Church in a large sense ; yet I neuer read of a Church of Angels . Bellarmine saith in expresse tearmes , Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 12. Ecclesia est Societas quaeda●m , non Angelorum , sed hominum . The Church is a Society or company , not of Angels , but of men . If I should haue brought such an Argument , to proue the militant Church vpon earth ( of which we disputed ) to bee inuisible , because the Angels are inuisible ; I should haue suspected my selfe , to haue beene as wise as hee that adored , for a Relique , one of the feathers of the Angell Gabriels wings .

Erubuit , salua res est , you seeme your selfe to be ashamed of this Answer : and therfore you insist not vpon it , but passe to the Minor , burdening it with falshood ; saying , The Protestants faith is not vnchanged , but so often changed , and so much subiect to change , as one may say , as a great person in Germany once said of some Protestants , What they hold this yeere , I doe in some sort know , but what they will hold next yeere ▪ I doe not know . I can requite you with a like Apophthegme :

The Popish faith is so subiect to change , that wee may say of it , as a learned person in France once said , That if a man would finde the Popish Tenets , he must looke into an Almanack for them . At one time , the murther of Kings is Catholique doctrine , viz. in the time of the League against the King of Nauarre . At another time , they pull in that horne : and then for a season , such murder is disauowed . That the Councell is aboue a Pope , was Catholique Doctrine with you in Martin the fifts time : it was not Catholique doctrine in Leo the tenths .

About the breaking vp of the Councell of Trent , the edition of the vulgar by * * Anno Dom. 1590. Sixtus Quintus , was authenticall , and not to bee reiected vpon any pretence . Not long after , it was not authenticall : For * * Anno. Dom. 1592. Clemens the eighth corrected it in many hundred places . Now goe and vpbrayd vs with our late reuised translation : but see withall , that you dispence with the Pope , that he may dispence with you . One yeere the immaculate conception of the blessed Virgin is maintained in bookes allowed by your Church ; another yeere it is impugned . Lastly , in one yeere it is determined in bookes set out by authoritie , among you , that the oath of alleageance may lawfully bee taken by Roman Catholiques : in the next yeere wee reade , that hee is no good Catholique that will take that oath . The title of vniuersall Bishop was held insolent , arrogant , profane , Antichristian , Luciferian , in Saint * * Greg. Epist. l. 4. Epist. 78. & 82. & alibi . Gregories time : but now you hold it to be the holy title of Christs Vicar . Yea , but say you , The Protestants haue no certaine and infallible rule , sufficient to preserue them from change . Belike then , the Scripture is no certaine and infallible rule ; but vnwritten traditions are : the Word of God is no sure ground , the Popes Decree is . The Apostle then hath much deceyued vs , who saith , Let God bee true , Rom. 3 4. and euerie man a lyer . If euerie man a lyer , euerie Pope too . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , homo , not vir onely , to exclude Pope Ioane from priuiledge of inerrability . You adde , to piece out your former argument , that in my demonstration I proue magis notum perignotius , viz. the visibilitie , which is easily knowne , by the truth of Doctrine , which is more hardly knowne , especially by onely Scripture ; of the sense whereof , according to the Protestants , who say , The whole Church may erre , no particular man can bee infallibly sure . The edge of this argument hath beene turned alreadie in the Remonstrance ; whereunto I adde : First , that visibilitie is more knowne to sense , then the truth of doctrine , but not to the vnderstanding of a Christian. Secondly , the visiblenesse of a particular present Church is the obiect of sense ; but not the perpetuall , former , and future visibility of any one Church , much lesse of the vniuersall . And therefore it is much easier , out of plaine and euident Texts of Scripture , together with the three Creeds , knowne to the simplest among vs ( where the Liturgie is in a knowne Tongue ) to deduce the truth of doctrine necessarie to saluation , then hee can produce a successiue Catalogue of visible professours out of good Authors in all Ages . Yea but no man , say you , can hee infallibly sure of the sense of Scripture , because Protestants hold , The whole Church may erre . In thus arguing , you bewray either ignorance , or an ill conscience . Ignorance , if you knowe not , that wee distinguish betweene the essentiall or formal Church , and the Church representatiue ; of poynts necessarie to saluation , and not necessarie ; of euident Texts of Scripture , & of obscure . But if you knew these distinctions , as indeed you cannot but knowe them ( hauing read D. Field and other Protestant Writers ) you dispute against your conscience . Because , in obscure and difficult Texts of Scripture , the Church may erre ; will it therefore follow , that no man can bee sure of the sense of plaine and euident Texts ? In which , if wee may beleeue * * Aug. de doct. Christ . l. 2. c. 9. In iis enim quae aperte in Scriptura posita sunt , inueniuntur illa omnia , quae fide continent moresque viuendi . Saint Austin , all those things are found , which concerne faith and manners . Will it follow , because wee hold , that your Church representatiue , that is , the Pope and his Consistorie , or the Pope and his Councell may erre , that therefore the essentiall and formal Church of Christ , consisting of all the visible Christians in the world , in propounding doctrine necessarie to saluation out of Scripture , may erre ? The Church following her guide , the Word of God , is sure not to erre , whether vniuersall or particular . For which preseruation from errour , we doubt not , but that there is a farre higher degree of spiritual assistance to the generall Councels , then nationall : yet in both it sometimes falleth out , that , as Austen obserueth , Priora à posterioribus emendentur : the former are corrected by the later .

Thirdly , you beg an Argument from your selfe , drawne from a beggerly fallacy , called Petitio principij , or begging your maine question . You say , that my former Syllogisme was a petitio principij , and therefore no demonstration : but I prooued it then , and since confirmed it , that it was a Demonstration , and therefore no petitio principij . Let the Reader heere obserue , how your Answers and Obiections interfere , and supplant one the other . Master Sweet will haue my Argument to bee a transitio à genere in genus ; but you , a petitio principij . Againe , elsewhere you call this Argument , A digression from the question , & a diuersiue proofe , and yet here you will haue it to bee identicall . Wherefore as Xenophanes ▪ opposed a motion made by Eleates , Arist. Rhet. l. 2. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . in behalfe of Leucothea , to celebrate her funerals with teares and lamentations , and withall to sacrifice to her as a Goddesse : this motion , sayth hee , ouerthroweth it selfe . If wee sacrifice to Leucothea as an immortall Goddesse , we must not bewaile her death : and if we bewaile her death , as being a mortal woman , wee must not sacrifice to her , as to a Goddesse priuiledged from death In like manner , whosoeuer readeth your said seuerall Answers , may obiect against them ; If the Argument aboue-named , was a petitio principij , it could not be a transitio à genere in genus : and if it were a transitio à genere in genus , it could not be a petitio principij . If it were a diuersiue proofe , it could not bee identicall : if it bee identicall , as you here affirme , it cannot be diuersiue : for , it implyes an apparant contradiction , to say , * * In prouing the same thing by the same thing , digresseth from the same thing . that a man , in proouing idem per idem , doth digredi ab eodem . But you yeeld a reason why this Argument beggeth or supposeth that which is in question : For ( say you ) in asking which is the true visible Church , or Congregation of the true faithfull , wee aske , at least vertually , which is the true faith . By the like reason , you might proue euery Demonstration à priori , to bee a petitio principij : For , in propounding any question touching the effect , wee enquire vertually and implicitly of the cause . And therefore Aristotle , in lib. 2. Poster . Analyt . acutely prooueth , omnem quaestionem esse quaestionem medij ; that euerie scientificall question is , in effect , a question of the medium or the cause . By the like Argument you might prooue , that all Arguments drawne à definitione ad definitum , are petitiones principij : because , in propounding any question touching the definitum , wee , at least vertually , inquire of the definition . If the tearmes in my Syllogisme were but formally distinct , the Syllogisme could bee no petitio principij : how much lesse then can it bee termed petitio principij : when , as it is certaine , they are distinct really , as your selfe confesse in your fourth Argument : to which now I addresse my selfe .

Fourthly , you impeach my Demonstration , by pushing againe at the Maior ; saying , Although faith be prerequired to be in some or other members of the true Church ; yet inward faith alone , without some outward profession , by which it is made visible , or sensible , doth not sufficiently make a man to be a member of the visible Church .

It is a true rule in Philosophy : Vehemens sensibile corrumpit sensum ; the bright light of a Demonstration so buzzardeth you , that you see not where you are , nor knowe what you are about . I am so farre from affirming , that inward faith , without outward profession , maketh a visible member of Christs Church ; that from inward faith , I inferre necessarily ex consequenti ; outward profession , which ( as I sayd in the Conference ) makes a member of the visible Church . Doo you grant the consequence , or deny it ? If you grant it , my Argument proceedeth : if you deny it , confirmabit pro me vester Aristoteles , your great Clerke , Lib. 3. de Eccles. Milit. cap. 13. Cardinall Bellarmine , makes good the consequence in this manner : Qui non confitentur fidem , sed , eâ in corde retentâ , exteriùs profitentur perfidiam et idololatriam , non sunt boni , nec saluantur ; cùm ad Roman. 10. dicat Apostolus , Corde creditur ad iustitiam , ore autem fit confessio ad salutem : et Mat. 10. Omnis qui negauerit me coram hominibus , &c. They are not good men , nor shall bee saued , who do not confesse the faith ; but , keeping it in their hearts , outwardly professe perfidiousnesse and idolatry : For , the Apostle , Rom. 10. saith , With the heart man beleeueth to righteousnes ; but with the tongue man confesseth to saluation : And Mathew 10. Whosoeuer denieth me before men , him wil I deny before my Father which is in heauen .

Let Master Fisher therefore looke back vpon my Argument , and demonstrate to me , though à posteriori , what Academicall learning taught him to deny it to bee a demonstration à priori .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the ninth , touching a testimony alleaged by Master Fisher , out of Doctor Field . Doctor Featly .

That Church whose faith , &c.

But the faith of the Protestant Church is the Primitiue Catholick faith , once giuen to the Saints : Ergo.

M. Fisher.

I answer the Minor . If this Proposition bee taken simply in it selfe , I absolutely deny it : but if this proposition bee considered ( as it must bee ) as related to the first Question , and the end thereof , I further adde , that it is not pertinent to that end , for which the whole Dispute was intended ; to weet , to shew to those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out the infallible faith , necessary to saluation , without learning it of the true visible Church of Christ : and , consequently , the Visibility of the Church is first to bee shewed , before the truth of Doctrine in particular shall be shewed .

D. Featly .

First , what speake you of those who are not able by their owne ability to finde out faith ? Is any man able by his owne ability , without the help of diuine grace ?

Secondly , what helpeth the Visibility , to confirme the truth of the Church ? Visibility indeed prooues a Church , but not the true Church .

Heere M. Fisher alleaged some words out of D. Field , of the Church ; supposing thereby to iustifie his former Answer . Whereunto D. Featly promised , Answer should bee made , when it came to their turne to answer ; now hee was by order to oppose M. Fisher.

Master FISHER his Answer .

These words either were not spoken , or M. Fisher did not regard them , beeing in the midst of his Answer : in which he went on , shewing the necessity of a visible Church , by a saying of D. Fields , viz. Seeing the controuersies of Religion at this day , are so many in number , and so intricate in nature , that few haue time and leasure ; fewer , strength of wit and vnderstanding ▪ to examine them : what remaineth for men , desirous of satisfaction in things of such consequence , but diligently to seeke out , which , among all the Societies of men in the world , is that Spouse of Christ , the Church of the liuing God , which is the pillar of the Truth ; that so they may embrace her Communion , follow her direction , and rest in her Iudgement ?

M. Fisher therefore ( I say ) beeing busily speaking this , did not regard what D. Featly did then say , but might easily haue answered first , that he neuer meant , that any were able of themselues , without help of Gods grace , to attaine the true faith ; which hindreth not , but that some may haue that ability of wit and learning , by which they can better examine controuersies of faith , then those that want these abilities . Secondly , although Visibility alone doe not prooue the true Church , yet it ( supposing Gods promises , that the true Church shall be alwaies visible ) much helpeth : and want of Visibility in any one Age , prooueth a company not to bee the true Church .

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply .

This parcell of your Answer containeth in it an allegation out of D. Field , and an alleuiation or mitigation of a speech of yours sauouring of Pelagianisme . To your allegation out of D. Field , I answer , Mitte quod scio , Die quod rogo . D. Fields speech I acknowledge , which is very pertinent to his end , but nothing to yours ; that it is requisite for all Christians , especially the weaker , to fly to the Church , and hide themselues vnder her wings , to preserue them from the danger of Romish Kites , as D. Field prudently obserueth : so no Protestant , to my knowledge , denieth . Our Nouices and Catechumeni are taught , as to honor God their Father , so also the Church their Mother . Now , because the Whore of Babylon beareth her selfe , as if shee were the Spouse of Christ , and true Mother of all Christians ; it is most behoouefull to all those that haue care of the health of their soules , to distinguish their true Mother from a false harlot ; the sincere milke , and wholsome brests of the one , from the poysoned dugs of the other : to which end , D. Fields Treatise of the Church , is a singular help : which when I reade , mee thinks I see that strong wrestler Iritarius , Plin. nat. histo. l. 1. cap. 20. so much innobled by Pliny , qui rectos ●t transuersos celatim toto còrpore habuit neruos , who had double sinnewes running acrosse ouer all his body : so able , so sinewie a Writer is D. Field ; who hauing well traced true antiquity , doth in that whole Treatise take vp your owne weapons , and conquereth you with them : hee takes away your strongest harnesse , in which you trust , I meane , the Catholique Church ; proouing it to bee ours , not yours . To the authority of Scriptures ( which I here beginne at ) hee addeth the consent of the Church of the liuing God , the pillar of truth , in whose determination and Communion , both wee and you are to rest . But doe you , M. Fisher , in earnest or with mentall reseruation , appeale to D. Fields iudgement ? Me thinks you draw the latch , as if you meant to enter into the penetralia & Clozet of that work of the Church . If you bee willing so to doe , I will leade you into the Entrie . Turne me but the page ouer , you shall finde , before the circuit of the sentence alleaged by you , be ended , a Writ of Error sued against that Church , which wil needs be the Mistresse and Mother of the rest , nay , the whole Church . There hath she her paterne from the Donatists , of appropriating to her self the title & priuiledges of the Church , excluding all other from the hope of saluation . So the Romanists cast into hel all the Christians of Greece , Russia , Armenia , Syria , Aethiopia , because they refuse to be subiect to the tyranny of the pope ; as also the States & kingdoms of Europe , which haue freed themselues from their Aegyptiacall bondage ; That the Romanists abuse vs with pretences of antiquity , vnitie , vniuersalitie , making the simple beleeue , that al is antient which they professe , and that the consent of all Ages is for them : whereas it is easie to prooue , that all the things wherein they differ from vs , are nothing but nouelties and vncertainties ; that the greatest part of the Christian world hath been diuided from them for certaine hundreds of yeeres ; and more to that purpose : which in that preface he promiseth , and in the tractate prooueth . To which booke , me thinkes , M. Fisher , or some other of his pew-fellowes , should vndertake in order , proutiacet , to make answer , or else neuer to haue beene so hardie , to cite that Author , whose lines vpbraid them with i●abilitie or negligence , so long as they suffer so learned and laborious a treatisely bent point blank against the walles of Rome to remain vnbattered .

Now to your alleuiation : you say in that speech of yours , concerning men not able , by their owne abilities , to finde out the infallible faith : you meant not to imply , that any were able of themselues , without helpe of Gods grace , to attaine the true faith : I hope , you meant not , because I trust that you are not sunke so deepe into Pelagianisme . Yet you should haue circumcised your lips and tongue , and kept better the Apostles rule , 1. Tim. 1. 13. to hold fast the for me of sound words : for , what Christian eare can endure to heare of men able , by their owne ability of wit or learning , to find out faith ? Wit and learning , I grant , are Gods good gifts , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , not to bee vnder-valued , much lesse contemned ; yet let me tell you , that wit and learning without grace ( such is the corruption of our nature ) rather hinder , then further our conuersion , as Saint Austen writes in his confessions , not with inke , but with teares : and on the contrary , grace without eminent wit or learning , outstrips naked wit & learning , in our race to heauen . Indocticoelum rapiunt , et nos cum doctrinis nostris , &c.

As for that which you adde , that Visibility though alone it prooue not the true Church , yet that it much helpeth to the proof thereof , I much desire you to help me heere , in shewing me how it much helpeth : for Visibility is but a common accident , and I finde no topick place in Aristotle , ab vno accidente communi ad subiectum . Suppose a meere naturall man were to choose his religion , and his Church , what will Visibility helpe him ? Besides , all sorts of Christian Churches , Iewish Synagogues , Mahumetane and Gentile Congregations are visible : will you say That is the truer Church which is more visible ? If you carrie it away from vs by that marke , the Greek Church will carrie it away from you ; the Mahumetanes , from the Greeke Christians ; and the Idolatrous Gentiles , from all . But this poynt hath bin handled before in my sixt & eight Assertion , touching the Visibility of the true Church : therfore omitting all farther prosecution of this point , and my proofe by Syllogisme , I come now to iustifie my induction .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the tenth , touching the induction and breaking vp of the Conference .

The Protestant Church was so visible , that the names of those who taught and beleeued the doctrine thereof , may be produced in the first hundred yerees , and second , and third , and fourth , et sic de caeteris , and so in the rest : therefore it was so in all Ages .

First , I name those of the first Age : and I begin with Him who is the beginning of all , our Lord and Sauiour Iesus Christ , blessed for euer , &c.

M. Fisher.

Name of all Ages , or else you do nothing .

D. Featly .

I cannot name all at once . Will you haue me name men of so many Ages , at one breath , & c ?

M. Fisher.

You shall not begin at Christ and his Apostles .

D. Featly .

You are not to make my Induction : I will begin with Christ and his Apostles , &c.

M. Fisher.

Name the rest in all Ages , and then I will answer .

D. Featly .

First , answer to the first Age : and then I wil proceed to the second , &c.

M. Fisher.

I will not answer you any thing , till you haue made your Catalogue .

D. Featly .

M. Fisher , I charge you , as you will answer it before Christ himselfe at the dreadfull day of iudgement , to answer directly , whether Christ and his Apostles taught our faith , or yours , &c.

Notwithstanding this deep Charge , M. Fisher still refused to answer to the argument of instance in Christ and his Apostles , &c.

Master FISHER'S Answer by a Counter-relation .

After this , D. Featly named , for the first Age , our Lord and Sauiour Christ , and his twelue Apostles , and Saint Paul , and Saint Ignatius . After which , he staied awhile , as if he had studied for more Names : but , not remembring any more whom he would set down for the first Age , he said , These ( not denying others ) may serue for the first Age.

Then turning to M. Fisher , he said , Let vs dispute of these . No , said M. Fisher : name , first , of all Ages . What , said D. Featly ? Will you not dispute of Christ and his Apostl●es ? Yes , said M. Fisher , in due place ; but first name the rest in all ages , and then I will answer you . What , said D. Featly ? Doo not Christ and his Apostles deserue the first place ? M. Fisher. I will not answer , before you haue named the rest .

Then said D. Featly in a heat , Well : you will not dispute of Christ and his Apostles : then you grant Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants . And so instantly , without expecting M. Fisher's Answer , he turned himselfe to the Audience , and said , Hee grants Christ and his Apostles to be Protestants . Whereupon , diuers of the Audience made such a shout , as if they had gotten a victory ; with such a noise , as M. Fisher , endeuouring to answer , for a time could not be heard . But he rising vp , and with his hand and voice crauing silence , made such as would heare him , vnderstand , how falsely D. Featly had slandered him to his face : and either then , or vpon some like occasion , he said , What may I expect behinde my back , when you thus mis-report mee to my face ?

And in this sort , when many of the company were willing to depart ; D. Featly , beeing called vpon ( as it seemed ) by some of his companions , to goe away , did arise , and offer to be gone : yet , in his rising , he turned to M. Fisher , saying , Will you dispute vpon Christ and his Apostles , or no ? To which M. Fisher said , I will , if you will stay ; and stretching out his hand , hee took D. Featly by his arme , offering to stay him : yet hee , in that abrupt manner , went away .

Doctor FEATLY's Reply .

This last passage hath been so duely pondered by those honourable , reuerend , and worshipfull Personages , who haue set their hands to the Attestation , that , to adde any more to that which is there most exactly discussed , were to offer post Protogenem lineam ducere , to draw a line after the most curious painter . The matter of fact then beeing cleered by witnesses beyond all exception , I owe nothing to M. Fisher for his Counter-relation , saue onely satisfaction to a similitude of debt , wherewith hee thinkes hee payes mee home , pag 61.

Master FISHER'S reflection , cap 3.

To do as Doctor Featly did , is no fit way to giue satisfaction to all sorts , expecting resolution of the aforesaid most important question : As it were a very insufficient way , to giue satisfaction in a debt of twentie pieces of gold to another his creditour , if in stead of actuall payment required , hee should say and offer to proue by a syllogisme , yea , by a demonstration à priori , that he can pay him the said twentie pieces , and being vrged to lay downe the particular peeces of gold , hee saith , that by an induction hee will lay downe those pieces of gold one after another ; and being farther pressed to doe so , hee , not hauing one piece of gold of his owne , taketh out of his creditors purse , one or two , or more pieces ; and laying downe one or two of them , saith , Lo , here is one or two towards the twentie : and being neuer so much vrged , he will not lay downe any more , vntill his creditour first dispute with him , whether these two or three pieces laid downe bee his owne or no : and being hereupon seriously told by his creditour , that vnlesse he laid downe all the pieces of gold , hee did not satisfie the debt , but lost his credit and forfeited his band ; he then falleth into passion , and saith , What ? will you haue mee eat my dinner at a bit ? I cannot lay downe all at once . Will you dispute with mee about these , or no ? Which his creditor refusing to doe , vntill all the twentie pieces bee actually laid downe ; hee lastly saith , Well , you will not dispute about these : you grant these to bee mine . And so , without expecting answer , hee turneth to the companie , saying , Hee granteth these to bee mine , and taketh vp his cloke , and runneth away , not regarding that his creditour , so soone as hee can open his mouth , biddeth him stay , and denieth anie such grant to haue been made by him ; yea , offereth to dispute with him of that poynt , if hee will stay . I suppose , no man will thinke this kinde of dealing , to bee an honest and good satisfaction in a debt of monie : and therefore much lesse should it bee accounted good in matters of for more importance and value , and specially in satisfying this ( by Doctor Featly vndertaken ) debt , of shewing names of visible Protestants in all ages out of good Authors .

Doctor FEATLY'S Reply .

Wee haue had triall before of your Grammar , Logicke , and Philosophie , and heer now you giue vs a cast of your Rhetoricke . The parts of a good similitude , called Protasis and Antapodosis , ought to be like two eyes looking one way , and not asquint : else they make not a similitude , but a dissimilitude . Let vs then view the aspect and cast of these your eyes . As a man , who being to pay a debt of twentie pieces or pounds to another his creditour , Protasis . in stead of actuall paying , offers to proue by a Syllogisme , that hee can pay him : and afterwards being pressed , not hauing one piece of gold of his owne , taketh out one or two pieces out of his creditours purse , and layeth them downe , and will lay no more downe , vntill his creditour first dispute with him whether the pieces laid downe be his owne or no. And the creditour refusing so to doe , till the whole summe were laid downe , hee the debtor taketh vp his cloke , and runneth away : Euen so Doctor Featly , Antapodosis . being to proue the visibilitie of the Protestant Church , first proued it by a demonstration à priori , and afterwards , at the importunitie of his aduersarie , vndertooke also to proue it à posteriori , by producing a catalogue of Names from Christ to Luther ; and hee began , recto et naturali ordine , with the first age , instancing in Christ and his Apostles , very earnestly pressing and vrging , yea and adiuring also Master Fisher to answer this instance : And vpon Master Fishers finall and peremptorie refusall thereof , he was pulled away by the companie , and not suffered to argue any longer with such a one , that refused to answer Christ and his Apostles . Hold hooke and line , and the Fisher shall catch a Gudgeon . I grant , a Similitude needeth not currere quatuor pedibus , runne vpon foure feet ; yet certainly it is a very bad Similitude that is lame of all foure , as this is ; and therefore cannot draw Dunne out of the mire . First , to produce a Catalogue of Names , was no debt , but rather a merit or worke of supererrogation : for the visibilitie of the Protestant Church may bee , and hath beene sufficiently defended , and demonstratiuely proued , without producing any catalogue of names : and therefore your similie limpeth on the first foot .

Secondly , to proue the visibilitie of the Church by a demonstration à priori , is not to pay a debt , by offering to proue , that a man can pay it ; but actually to pay it in the purest gold , whereas it had been sufficient to pay it in ordinarie siluer or coorser gold . For , a demonstration à priori , as farre exceeds a demonstration à posteriori , as gold doth siluer , or the finest Angel gold baser coine of the same metall ; and therefore your similie halteth on the second foot .

Thirdly , to instance in Christ and his Apostles , was not to lay downe two pieces for twentie , but to lay downe a Diamond worth manie millions , in stead of twentie peeces : for if the Poet could say , Cic. Orator . Plato mihi instar millium : Plato is to mee in stead of a thousand ; how much more may a Christian , especially a Protestant Christian say , Christ and his Apostles are to me in stead of millions of witness●s ? Neither is it an idle ma●ter , as in your ridiculous similie you would imply , but a matter of the greatest importance of all , to enquire whether Christ and his Apostles bee ours or yours : and therefore your similitude halts downe-right on this third foot .

Fourthly , it is not all one , after a man hath laid downe two pieces , to stay till they bee weighed , before hee lay downe any more , and simply to refuse to lay downe any more . It is one thing , voluntarily to goe away ; and another thing , to bee puld away by those of his friends whom hee hath cause most to respect ; and therefore your similie is lame also on the fourth foot : and how then can it stand vpright , much lesse goe for currant ? Nay , the most beggerly cripplenesse of this long-robed comparison , is in the begging as granted that which is the moment and ground of the whole question . Hee putteth the case , that the debter tooke the two pieces out of the creditours purse . Surely , a blind or verie credulous creditor , that would stand still till the debter picked his pocket . O patience ! Good Sir Creditor , if you can , vpon your credit , make good , that those whom you intend by the two tendered pieces of coyne , namely , Christ and his Apostles , are the proper legacy and riches of the Romane treasurie , take vs your bondmen in stead of payment of the rest . But if this field , wherein this precious pearle lyeth , bee by good title ours ( as I then would , and at any time hereafter can proue ) I think , vpon such conuiction , you will haue small courage to clamour for the rest of your twentie . Doe but looke on this coyne , though loth , and see whose image and superscription it carryeth : is it not the liuely indeleble Character of our Sauiours Charter , the Scriptures ? They are ours by Christ ; Christ ours by them .

The Roman pouch is so stuffed with Traditions , so choaked with counterfait ouergilt Copper of new-minted Articles , that Christ , and his Apostles , and Euangelists , cannot bee admitted ; nay , will not bee embased , to bee mingled with such drosse . But I wonder that you dwell so long vpon a money - Similie . I thought you had vowed pouerty , and might not touch siluer . I haue heard of some of your orders , that if they touch coyne , it blisters their hands : as it is reported of a certaine Lady , that if a Rose-leafe bee put vpon her hand as shee is asleep , it will make it blister . But it seemeth to mee , that you are Theocritus his Fisher ; you fish for gold ; and , if you are not wronged , haue caught no small number of golden gudgeons in your net , and transported them beyond the seas , carrying , Rem ad non res , no smal stock to English Nunneries , I had almost sayd Iesuitisses or Loyolasses . And if you will needes haue a Similie from paying monie , to illustrate this passage in the conference , thus you may frame it : Suppose a Catalogue for sixteene-hundred yeeres which haue runne since Christ , to bee sixteen-hundred pound : suppose the hundred yeeres to bee a hundred pound : I , by producing a Catalogue of visible Protestants in the first age , lay downe a hundred pound of the summe , and bid you tell it after me , and then demand of you , whether the summe bee right ? You answer , that you will tell mee , after you haue told the whole summe of 1600. pounds . I presse you again & againe , to answer concerning this first summe , whether it be right or no : if it be right , I promise to lay down al the rest in the like manner . You answer as before , Lay downe the rest , or you shall not begin with the first & next heap , but with the last in conclusion . I charge you , as you wil answer it at your peril to your Master , whose factor you pretend to bee , to giue-ouer all cauilling , & plainly & directly to answer me , whether this first sum be right or not : and when , notwithstanding this deep charge , you trifle & cauill , the witnesses , who were to set their hands to my acquittance , pul me away , saying , You shal deale no more with such a cauilling factor . This is a true & perfect embled of the breaking vp of the Conference : wherewith I will breake vp my defence thereof .

The Protestant Relation . Paragraph the eleuenth , touching the issue of the Conference .

This Conference , though it took not that progresse which was desired , by reason of the Iesuites tergiuersation , not permitting D. Featly to come to the ripenesse of any Argument ; yet it hath not beene fruitlesse : for since that time , the aforesaid M. Bugges came to Sir Humfrey Lynde , and gaue him many thankes for the said meeting , and assured him that hee was well resolued now of his Religion ; that hee saw plainely it was but the Iesuites bragging without proofes : and whereas formerly , by their sophisticall perswasions , hee was in some doubt of the Church , hee is now so fully satisfied of the truth of our Religion , that hee doth vtterly disclaime the Popish Priests company , and their doctrine also .

Master FISHER'S Answer .

I haue cause to doubt , that this which the Relator saith , is not true : for thereby hee maketh the old Gentleman to bee but of a weake capacity , or of a very mutable nature : for first , I am sure there was no cause giuen in the Conference , of any such effectuall resolution , to bee made by the old Gentleman . Secondly , I cannot see when this speech should bee made by the Gentleman to Sir Humfrey . If immediately after the Conference , it would argue too much want of capacitie : for if hee did but rightly conceiue the true state of the Question , in which himselfe had especially desired to bee satisfied ( as I verily hope hee did ) hee might easily haue marked the insufficiencie of D. Featly his diuerting proofes ; which also were so answered , as the audience , for want of satisfaction in them , vrged him to leaue off , and 〈◊〉 produce names of Protestants in all Ages ; the which producing of names beeing so oft and earnestly required to bee done in all Ages , and yet beeing onely pretended ( and that most falsely ) to be done for one Age , and the Conference beeing so abruptly left off by D. Featly , before he would goe forward to name men in other Ages , especially in Ages before Luther ; at the question required ; any meane capacitie might see , that the Question in which the old Gentleman desired to bee satisfied ; was not fully answered , nor consequently hee satisfied .

Moreouer , the same Gentleman beeing present ; when the Earle of Warwick told M. Fisher , that D. Featly should at another time come againe to giue names of Protestants in other Ages , hee might easily , and doubtlesse did vnderstand ; that as yet 〈◊〉 in all Ages were not giuen , nor consequently , the Question satisfied , in which hee expected Answer . Furthermore , presently after hee went away from the Conference , hee told M. Fisher himselfe , that hee was glad , that at the next meeting his Question should bee answered : which shewed , that as yet he did not conceiue it to be answered .

Lastly , diuers dates after all the trouble and stirre was past ( which was made about the Conference ) the old Gentleman was not ●ore solute a Protestant ( as the Relator pretendeth ) for meeting M. Fisher , and M , Sweet , hee desired them to giue him a Catalogue of names of Professors of the 〈…〉 that if after this the Doctors should not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants hee should dislike their cause : Which Catalogue , M. Fisher , and M. Sweet haue ready for him , but will not deliuer , till he get the Doctors to make theirs ready , that hee bring to them the Doctors Cat●logue with one hand , and receiue theirs with the others , to deliuer to the Doctors .

All that can bee suspected , is , that in the very time of the said stir , when the old Gentleman either was , or feared to bee called in question ; it may perhaps bee , that he might say those words , which the Relator mentioneth . But this ( if it were ) was onely vpon fra●ltie or humane feare of trouble , and not any firme and settled resolution grounded vpon the Conference , sith both before and after , he shewed a contrary minde , as hath beene said .

Doctor FEATLIE'S Reply .

What you repeat in this passage , touching my proceedings in the Conference , hath beene before vpon diuers occasions answered ; and I endeuour , as much as may bee , to auoyd your familiar figure of battologie or repetition . For , that which concerneth M. Bugges , that hee receiued satisfaction by the Conference , and gaue many thankes to Sir Humfrey Lynd for procuring it , and not as you imagine , when the trouble was about the Conference , but the selfesame night , in the very roome wherein we conferd , is not onely proued by Sir Humfrey Lynde his testimonie , but also by M. Bugges owne subscription , both to the Protestant Relation in generall , and to this passage in particular , and that of late , since all pretended trouble was blowne ouer . Now M. Fisher , you are a very merry man , that will goe about to face a man out of his beliefe , and dispute him out of that peace and comfort which hee feeleth in his consciecne . M. Bugges may well answer you in the words of Saint Austen , spoken to another purpose , Tu ratiocinare : ego credam , &c. Doe you syllogize : I will beleeue . Demand you a reason , if you list : I will giue thankes . Argue as long as you please , How I could bee resolued by the Conference ? I am sure , I was resolued , and so still continue . When the Philosopher in A. Gellius , sophistically disputed against motion in this manner :

Whatsoeuer is mooued locally , is either mooued in the place wherein it is , or wherein it is not . It cannot be mooued in the place wherein it is not , because that is not to mooue locally , or in place : where the body hath no existence , it can haue no motion . Neither can a body be said to mooue in the place wherein it is , because while a body remaines in its place , it cannot mooue from it : One of his Auditors there present , whose arme a little before had beene put out of ioynt ; though hee could not verbally answer that his sophisme , yet hee really refeld it thus , At ego sensi motum luxato brachio , I am sure I felt a motion when I hurt my arme , and put the bone out of ioynt . In like manner , when you argue , that M. Bugges could not be mooued by any thing that was spoken in the Conference , because his Question was not answered ; or the Catalog●e of names not produced ; or because D. Featlyes proofs were diuersiue ; or because the Popish . Audience still called for names ; or because you and M. Sweet are not yet satisfied : or because I know not what : M. Bugges , in a word refutes all your reasoning , At ego sensi motum , I am sure I felt my selfe mooued by it : and the doubt which sometimes shook my faith , remooued : So that I wa● thereby , not ( as the other ) put out of ioynt , but in ioynt ; and of lame , made whole . Neither will it hence follow , that M. Bugges must needs bee a man of meane capacity , if hee were satisfied by so short a Conference ; but rather that God oftentimes vseth weake meanes to ouerthrow Satans strong holds . Firmus the Maniche was reclaimed from that heresie , by a digression of Saint Austens , in a certaine Homily . Alipius was drawn from heathenish sports and pastimes , by an example , in a discourse of Saint Austens on the By. That noble Venetian Marquesse , who left both his Marquisate , and all that hee had , for the loue of the Gospell , and comfortably ended his daies at Geneuae , was at the first reformed , both in his faith and life , by an elegant Simile in a Sermon of Peter Martyrs . Sometimes an exquisite Sermon taketh not the Auditory ; and sometimes a farre meaner taketh : now and then a stronger Argument worketh not vpon the vnderstanding and will ; and yet a weaker proofe doth at the same time . You cannot bee ignorant of the Story in Ruffinus , of an Arrian Philosopher , of whom the learned Bishops in the Councell could get no ground at all : yet a simple vnlearned man , by two or three blunt Interrogatories , conquered and quite confounded him . Wil you from this , and the like instances , inferre , that the men so conuerted , were men of meane capacity ? The contrary euidently appeares in Story : you should rather from hence gather with religious Austen ( who may truly be said to 〈◊〉 written , rather ex gratia , then degratia , so gratiously doth hee write of grace ) totum Deo dare , qui voluntatem hominis bonam et praeparat adiuuandam , Enchirid. ad Laurent . et adiuuat praeparatam ; in our first conuersion , and euery good work after , to ascribe all to God , who both prepares the will to be aided by grace , and aideth it beeing prepared .

Yea , but say you , M. Bugges much desired a second meeting : therefore it seemes , he was not so resolute a Protestant as wee make him . If this were a good Argument , you might prooue all of our side to be vnsettled in our Religion ; yea , M. Deane of Carlile , and my selfe also , who much desired , and yet doe , a second meeting , to perfect the work then begun . Though a man be neuer so well resolued in poynt of Religion , yet hee may desire to heare Diuinity-Disputations , and make good vse of them . Yea , but M. Bugges desired M. Fisher and M. Sweet to giue him a Catalogue of names of professors in the Romane Church ; saying , that if after this , the Doctors would not giue him a Catalogue of Protestants , hee would dislike their cause . If M. Bugges spake so ( which I haue reason to doubt ) hee spake it , as hauing certaine knowledge , that we had a Catalogue , which hee did or might haue seene in the Conference . Nor indeed doth the desiring or requiring of a Catalogue , inferre any doubt of the conclusion . Though a plaine vnlearned Christian beleeue most firmely , that Christ was borne of the seed of Abraham and Dauid , yet may he desire more particular information , by hearing the beginning of Saint Mathews , or Saint Lukes Gospell read and expounded to him . Moreouer , when I vndertooke to name those who taught Protestant Doctrine in all Ages , if I should faile therein , he should haue had iust cause to dislike my proceedings . Yea but , say you , there was no cause giuen in the Conference at all , of any effectuall resolution to be made by the old Gentleman : therefore he could not bee so resolued by it , as is pretended . For answer heereunto , though I am loth , yet you constraine mee to recapitulate the chiefe points touched in the Conference . Before the Conference , M. Bugges was somewhat staggered in the poynt touching the Visibility of the Church , by your brauadoes , and Rhodomontadoes , that all the world were Papists before Luther ; That there was neither vola nor vestigium of a Protestant Church before that time ; A briefe recapitulation of the Conference . That no Protestant Minister durst encounter you in this point : if any should be so hardy , as to enter into these lists with you ; you would presently blank , silence , and nouplus them . Thus possessed , and in some sort perplexed by your bold and confident assertions and false suggestions ; hee with much adoe , by Sir Humfrey Lyndes meanes , procures a Conference : wherein hee findes all things otherwise then hee might expect . Hee and all the Auditory obserued D. White , and my selfe , to bee very ready and earnest to proceed in the Questions ; both to prooue the Visibility of our Church , and disprooue theirs . On the contrary , he could not but see you to cast all manner of Remoraes and rubs , to hinder speedie and direct proceedings : and for the Questions touching the Visibility of the Church ,

First , hee heard , that the perpetuall Visibility of the Church , beeing a point of faith , was not to bee built vpon deduction from humane Stories and good Authors , as the Iesuite required ; but vpon diuine reuelation in Gods Word , as is confessed by * * Bellarmine loc. sup. cit. Canus loc. l. 11. c. 4. praeter auctores sacros nullum historicum certum esse posse et ●doneum , ad faciendum certam in theologia fidem . learned Papists .

Secondly , that a Protestant Church might haue beene visible in all Ages , and yet not the names of visible Protestants now to bee produced , and prooued out of good Authors , because neither all mens names euer were vpon record , nor are all antient Records preserued to this day , neither can wee come by all those Records that are yet extant .

Thirdly , that notwithstanding the Popish brag , that All the Christian world were Papists before Luther ; yet you were not able to name any Countrey , City , Village or Hamlet , nay not any man , who for 500. yeeres and more after Christ , either professed your Trent-faith in generall , or those fifteene points recited in the Conference in particular .

Fourthly , that the surest and strongest meanes to prooue the perpetuall Visibility of a Church , was á priori , by the conformity of it's faith to the Scriptures : of which faith , God promiseth in his Word , that it shall haue visible Professors to the worlds end .

Fiftly , that a visible Church inferrs not necessarily a right faith . Iews , Mahumetanes , Gentiles , and diuers sorts of blasphemous Hereticks , haue visible professors of their impieties : yet are they all of a wrong beliefe ; if of any on the contrary , the right faith inferreth necessarily a visible Church , because the true faith cannot bee in a Church , which professeth it not openly , or priuately : therefore the prime and maine question of all is , of the right beliefe , of the primitiue and Catholique faith , whether wee or the Church of Rome haue it ; and not of a Catalogue of names .

Sixtly , that an offer was made , to name some eminent persons , which in al Ages taught Protestant Doctrine , and opposed the Romish errors , either when they came in , or not long after ; and that this Catalogue had beene a good way proceeded in , if you had not beene the cause by your delayes and tergiuersations .

Lastly , that when I instanced in Christ and his Apostles , and vrged you againe and againe , yea and adiured you also to answer directly , whether they taught our faith or yours ; yet you peremptorily and finally refused so to doe : which hee might well interpret , to proceed from your apparant distrust in your cause .

And now let the discreet Reader iudge , whether M. Bugges had not reason to alter his opinion concerning you and your cause , at least in that particular , of which only he seemed to doubt of .

Shortly after the Conference , M. Fisher sent this Letter ensuing , to the right honorable the Earl of WARWICK . The Copie of M. Fisher's Letter . RIGHT HONOVRABLE LORD :

I Esteeme it a speciall prouidence of God , that your Lordship was present at a late Conference , wherein D. White and D. Featly vndertook to shew against mee and my companion , that the Protestant Church had beene visible in all Ages , and that their Professors might be named , especially in the Ages before Luther . Your Lordship may remember the substance of all the proofe to haue consisted in this , that The true Church was alwaies so visible , as the Professors thereof in all Ages might be named : but the Protestants was the true Church . Wee refused to dispute of the Minor , because it transferd the Question , and auoyded that plaine proofe of the visible Church , which was then propounded and expected . If ▪ as they conclude , they are able to name their Professors in all Ages , why did they refuse to giue vs a Catalogue of theirs , as we were ready to haue giuen them another of ours ? Why went they about to prooue they were able to name them , when with lesse adoe they might haue named them ? Where deeds are iustly expected , words without deeds are worthily neglected .

Certainely , heereby they are so farre from hauing discharged themselues of the great enterprize they vndertook , as they stand more engaged then before , to the performance of it . For , hauing now professed and acknowledged , that the true Church , or ( to vse their owne words ) the Church that is so visible as the Catholick Church ought to bee ( and the Church , whose faith is eternall and vnchanged , must bee ) , is able to name her Professors in all Ages , either for their owne honour , and for the satisfaction of the world , they must set down the names of their Professors in all Ages ; or else they shamefully discouer themselues , not to be that true and visible vnchanged Church , which is able to name them . Againe , at the length yeelding ( as they did ) to shew the continual Visibility of their Church , by a full induction of their visible Protestants in all Ages , ( which they seemed to vndertake with great confidence ) , why did they stick in the first Age alone , refusing to name their professors in the Ages following , vntill the first were tried ? May not the Answerer choose to deny which part of the Argument hee pleaseth ? and was it euer heard , that hee should bee inforced to reply to one proposition alone , before the whole Argument , whether it were Syllogism or Induction , were fully propounded ? Very nobly therefore , and prudently your Lordship in the end desired anothe● meeting ; not doubting , that your owne partie , within three or foure daies would be content to giue vs the names of their Professors in all Ages , as wee were ready to giue them the names of ours , that thereby both sides might bee the better prepared for a second triall : which when they haue performed , wee shall not faile to encounter with them , either by way of speech or writing , as your Lordship ( all things considered ) shal think fairest , or safest , or most conuenient for the discouery of truth . But if your Lordship shall not bee able to obtaine at their hands this your most iust and import●nt request , the defect of proofe on their part must needs bee accounted a plaine flight , and no man heereafter can prudently rely his saluation vpon that Church , which ( for want of perpetuall Visibility prooued ) they themselues shall haue concluded to be false and feigned .

Thus expecting the issue heereof , and your Lordships further pleasure from the mouth of this bearer , I remaine , the first of Iuly 1623.

Your Lordships seruant in Christ , IOHN FISHER .

Doctor Featlie's Answer to M. Fisher's Letter .

IN perusing this Letter of yours , I could not but think of the old riddle , Hom● 〈…〉 , videns non videns , lapidem non lapidem , &c. A man , no man , ( that is , an Eunuch ) seeing , not seeing ( that is , seeing dimly , being ●urblind ) a stone , no stone ( that is , a pumice ) : for , heere is a priuate Letter , no Letter , relating , not relating , the substance of my Argument , not my Argument .

First , it may bee call'd a priuate Letter , because it was seald vp like a priuate Letter , and indorsed to an Honorable Personage ; yet it was no priuate Letter : for , diuers copies of it were dispersed and read , before the Earle receiued it , who heard of it , before hee read it . His Lord-ships name was set vpon it , onely to make it more passable , and to giue vent for such cheating wares , as Master Fisher thought , would passe more currant , by a Letter addressed to so Noble a Personage .

Secondly , it relateth , and not relateth , because it omitteth much more then it relateth : for the Introduction in the beginning , and the Induction in the end of the Conference , and all my Replies in the middle , they are all not circumcised only , as the Argument here relateth , but quite cut out .

Thirdly , it relateth my Argument , not my Argument ; my Argument , because propounded in most of my words : yet not my Argument , because not according to my meaning , when I disputed thus in the Conference : The Church whose faith is perpetuall and vnchanged , is so visible , or ought to bee so visible , that the names of the Professors thereof may be shewed in all Ages . I argued not so , according to my owne opinion , but as it is expresly set downe in the Conference , ex concessis , vpon your owne ground : vpon which to supplant you , I held it a great disparagement to your cause : and therefore , in repeating the Argument againe , I expresly added , as you your selfe confesse , That Church which holdeth this faith , you beleeue ( I said not , wee ) to bee so visible , Page 19. as that the names of the Professors may be shewed , &c. In the very entrance to the Conference , you acknowledge these to haue beene my words : although this Question be grounded on vncertain and false supposals : for , a Church may haue beene visible , yet not the names of all Professors thereof now to bee shewed . Page 32. And againe , Are all visible mens names vpon record ? are all Records in former times , now to bee produced ? And againe , in the same page , M. Sweet calling for names of Protestants , well might say , If Protestants had beene in all Ages , their names in euery Age might bee produced . Vnto which , as the Protestant Rel●tor ●aith , and the Counter-Relator denieth it not , D. Featly replyed , saying , This is a non sequitur . Out of all which passages it euidently appeares , that both you in this your Letter , and L. D. otherwise M. Sweet , in the defence of the Appendix , bely your owne consciences , in saying , that I professed ( out of mine owne iudgement & opinion ) that the true Church must be able to name Professors in all Ages . It is true , as Brasidas the Lacedemonian ran thorow his Aduersary with his owne Speare ; Erasm. Apophtheg . so I took that proposition , tanquam hastam amentatam , from you , to wound you with your owne weapon . And although I needed not at all to haue descended to an Induction , or produced any Catalogue of such as maintained Protestant Doctrine by name : yet the more to conuince you , and to satisfie some of the Auditory , I beganne a Catalogue , and had proceeded farther in it , if I had not beene called away by those , whose Authority and Loue might command mee ; who would not suffer mee to deale any longer with an aduersary so atheologicall , and alogicall , so irreligious and vnreasonable ; so irreligious to refuse , finally and peremptorily , to answer an instance in Christ and his Apostles ; beeing vehemently pressed , and not without adiuration : Secondly , so vnreasonable , to require an Opponent to prooue at once , eminent professors for 1500 yeeres , to haue taught Protestant Doctrine . Was there euer any that vndertook to make good a catalogue of Professors in all Ages , who did not first prooue , that there were such in the first Age , and then in the second , et sic de caeteris , and so in the rest ? Was there euer a Respondent , who vndertook to answer an Argument by Induction of particulars , consisting of 15 or rather 15 hundred particulars ( and al in his iudgement questionable ) who did not answer them piece-meale in order , first applying his Answer to the first particular , and secondly to the second , & c ? I cannot patterne you better , then by that malefactor , who hauing stolne my Oxen , and beeing indited for them seuerally , would not answer directly to the first enditement , Guilty or not guilty ; but said ; still that hee had that Oxe with his fellowes ; heereby hoping , vpon tryall of the whole in one lump , to escape by his book , or benefit of Clergie , as wee call it . In like manner , when you were put to it , to answer directly , Whether the Protestant Professors were not visible in the first Age , and so in the second , and so in the third , & c ? you answer , It was not visible in the first Age , with the rest , nor in the second with the rest , and further you will not goe . The difference betweene you , is onely this , He answered so shufflingly and confusedly , to saue his neck ; and you , to saue the rack of an Argument ; he , to slip out by his Clergy ; you , by your vnclerkly Sophistry . You may bee sure , such kinde of foggie and misty answering , could no way satisfie a man of so cleere a iudgement and apprehension in controuersies of this nature , as the Earle of Warwick is . Which that you may the better know from his own pen , I will acquaint you with a Letter wrote by occasion of this businesse , by his Lordship , and addressed to Sir Humfrey Lynde .

To my louing friend Sir Humfrey Lynde .

SIR , since my beeing at your house at the Disputation of M. Doctor Featly and Fisher , diuers haue come vnto mee , to know whether it was a Disputation appointed by me , or no ; and whether I was not satisfied with it . Whereby I perceiue , those that learne the doctrine of equiuocation , will not spare to tell a plaine lye , to doe any man wrong that is not of their opinion . And I am the more confirmed in this opinion : for , since last night , M. Plume came to mee , and deliuered this enclosed letter , which I much maruell at . I would not answer it , but thus : that I would speake with you , and that M. Fisher should not need feare , that D. Featly would flee from him , but meet him at any time , to make good his Tenet . I had thought to haue spoken with you my selfe , but my earnest occasions pressed mee to go this day into the countrey . Wherefore , if you meet , I pray let the company know , for the meeting , that I knew of it but halfe an howre before it was , and I came at the request of another Gentleman , and for no desire of mine to be satisfied : for I thank God , my conscience makes no doubt of the truth of our Religion . This I say , because I heare that some of that Religion giue it out , It was my request to haue a Disputation . I pray keepe M. Fishers Letter till I see you , and restore it me againe . You may perceiue the scope of it : but it is as vaine , as his Answers were . Thus with my loue to you , I rest ,

Your very louing friend , WARWICK .

Master FISHER his Reflection vpon the occasion and issue of the Conference .

NOW hauing made an end of this Relation , I am to intreat the gentle Reader to reuiew it , or reflect vpon it , and to call to minde , and mark , first , the occasion , and consequently , the end of the Disputation ; secondly , the Question , and true meaning of it ; thirdly , what method was most fit to be obserued , intreating of this Question ; fourthly , what course was taken by the Protestant Disputant , and what by the Catholique Respondent . All which beeing duly considered , thou wilt better see what is to bee iudged of the whole Conference and wilt make to thy selfe more benefit of the matter treated in it , then perhaps hitherto thou hast done about the occasion .

The occasion of the Disput● , was , &c.

Doctor FEATLY his Answer .

THere is a threefold sight .

First , per radium rectum , by a right beame or line betweene the eye and obiect ; as when I looke directly vpon a mans face , and behold the shape and proportion thereof as it is in it selfe .

Secondly , per radium reflexum , by a reflected line or beame ; as , when I behold a mans face and shape in a glasse .

Thirdly , per radium refractum , by a broken beame ; as , when I behold the same mans face , or any thing else through dispar medium , as water or glasse . Whosoeuer viewes your Reflection , as you call it , with a single eye , will iudge , that it ought rather to haue been tearmed a Refraction ; not for that it proceeds from a man of a broken brain : ( for your intellectuals are good enough ) but because you defend a broken cause ; and your proofes are broken scraps taken out of Brerelies alsme-box : and you represent no truth entirely , but brokenly . If it represent any thing entirely , as by reflection , it is the Fisher viewing himselfe vnhappily caught in his owne net , struggling and striuing to breake out of it , but all in vaine ; 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

As I haue before related your Relation : so I will now reflect a while vpon your Reflection : wherein I finde ,

First , matter of repetition touching the question , and meaning of it , and the occasion of the Conference and method vsed in it ; whereunto I haue answered before , and it is very tedious to mee , to seethe againe your poore Cole-woort . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉

Secondly , matter of additions , which are of two sorts ; either personall , and these concerning

My selfe : for answer whereunto , I refer you to the appendix ;

Master Salisburie , a diligent Preacher & smart Disputant , who either hath alreadie , or will shortly meete with you at Fishers folly .

Or real , to wit , certain allegations crudely taken out of Master Brerelyes Protestants Apologie , falsely so called , tractatu 2. c. 2. sect. 11. subdiuis . 3. to proue , that by the confession of Protestants , there were no Protestants before Luther .

Now , although I might iustly passe-ouer in silence those testimonies , partly , because I haue no particular quarrell with Master Brerely , but with your selfe ; partly , because none of those allegations come neere the Outworkes , much lesse the Castle of my defence : yet I hold it not altogether vnfit to examine them particularly , that the indifferent Reader may see with what sinceritie you cite testimonies out of Protestant Writers . Euripides long ago obserued , that things appeare otherwise to those who view them afar off , them to those that view them neere at hand : 〈…〉

Wee read of 〈…〉 Spaine , in which all the fish , Plin. nat. hist. l. 2. c. 105. Omnes aurei coloris ostendit pisces , nihil extra illam aquam caeteris differentes . whilst they swimme in the riuer , are of a golden colour ▪ but when they are taken 〈◊〉 , they change their 〈◊〉 , nothing like themselues 〈◊〉 like manner , these testimonies , which you truely alleadge ( some you false quote ) out of learned & renowned Protestants , in the Authors themselues haue a fa●re other appearance 〈◊〉 aspect , then in this your abstract .

To pro●e ▪ there were no Protestants before Luther , you alledge , in the first place , Luther himselfe .

Master FISHER'S reflection , sect. 2. p. 50.

First therefore ▪ Luther himselfe saith , Wee dare boast , that Christ was first published by vs . Luther . Epist. ad Argentin .

Doctor FEATLY'S Answer .

First , I answer , that Luthers words in his Epistle ad Argent . in all the editions which I could finde , are not so as Master Fisher cites them : that which I finde in that Epistle any way looking that way , is , Neque 〈◊〉 possum me indignum fuisse vas Dei , per quod 〈…〉 saccursum est : Neither can I deny ▪ that I ( though vnworthy ) haue been an instrument of God , by which innumerable soules haue been helped . A speech as modest as true , far different from that which you quote in stead thereof .

Secondly , if you can , in any Epistle ad Argentin . or elsewhere in Luthers workes , find those words , Wee dare boast , that Christ was first published by vs ; the meaning of them may bee gathered from many other places of Luther , to bee this , that in those parts of the Christian world , he was the first that publiquely made head against the Roman errors , and sent a Flag of defiance to the Antichrist of Rome , and vindicated the truth of Christs Gospel , so long with-held in vnrighteousnes .

Thirdly , Luther himselfe acknowledgeth , that hee had many fore-runners : he giueth the hands of fellowship to the Piccards , and Waldenses , and ( in a manner ) canonizeth I. H●s for a Saint . In his preface to Wesselus Groningensis , thus hee writeth : Helias This bites , Propheta olim , cùm Sermo Domini esset pretiosus , nec abundaret visio , occisis vniuersis pe●e Prophetis ab impissimâ Iezabele , arbitrabatur sese relictum esse solùm : ●b id vitae pertaesus , optabat animam suam tolli , quod vnus impar sibi videretur ferendo oneri intolerabili impijssimi populi , et pri●●cipū eius ; nescius , adhuc 7000. Domino relicta et Abdiam cum 100. Prophetis latitantibus seruatum . Quae parabola , si paruis liceat cōp●nere magna , huius mei saecul● esse videtur : ego enim nescio qua dei pro●identiâ in publicum raptus , cum monstris istis indulgentiarum et pontificiarum legum sic pugnauivt me solum esse putarem , etsi satis mihi semper f●it animi ; ita vt passim 〈◊〉 et immodesti●r accuser , praenimia qua ardeb●●●iduci● : semper tamen id optani , quò tollerer et ego de medio ●eorum Baaluarum , et eiuiliter m●rt●●s in angulo mihi vinerem ; prorsus desperans me posse quicq●● promo●ere apud aereas istas frontes , et cer●ices ferreas impietatis . Sed ecce , et mihi dicitur , esse 〈◊〉 reliquias suas saluas 〈◊〉 in hoc tempore , et Prophetas 〈◊〉 ●bscondito seruatos . Nec hoc solùm dicitur , sed et 〈◊〉 gaudi● ostenditur : prodij● enim Wesselus , quem ●●silium dicunt , Frisius Groningensis , ●ir 〈…〉 enij , rari et ra●gni spiritus , qu● et 〈…〉 verè Theodidacton , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . quales prophet●●it f●re Christianos Esayas . Neque enim ex hominibus 〈◊〉 i●dicari potest , sicut nec ego : hic si mihi a●●ea fuisset lectus , poterat hostibus meis videri , Lutherus 〈◊〉 ex Wesselo hausisse , adeo spiritus vtriusque 〈…〉 vnum , &c. To the Christian Reader , Martin Luther wisheth saluation in the Lord .

The Prophet Elias the Thisbite , when the Word of the Lord was precious , and vision failed ( all the Prophets ( in a manner ) being slaine by the most wicked Iezabel ) thought that himselfe had been left alone ; and therefore being wearie of his life , wished , that God would take it away from him , because being but one , he deemed himselfe vnable to beare the intolerable burden of a most wicked people & their Princes ; not knowing , that God had reserued to himselfe yet 7000. and that Abdias ; with a hundred other Prophets lurking in secret , were preserued aliue . Which Storie , if I may compare small things to great , seemeth to mee a perfect image or emblem of this age wherein I liue : for , I by diuine prouidence being drawne into the publique theater of the world , so fought with these monsters of Popish Indulgences and Decretals , that I thought my selfe to bee alone , although I neuer wanted courage in these combats ; insomuch , that I am rather accused of the contrarie , of an ouerpoignant stile and fierie zeale : yet I alwaies wished , that God would take mee from among my Baalites , and that , being ciuilly dead , I might enioy my selfe in some corner ; vtterly despairing of doing any good vpon the brazen foreheads and iron necks of the wicked . But behold , it is told mee also ( as it was told Elias ) that God hath reserued vnto himselfe a remainder ( of true beleeuers ) euen in this time , & that there are Prophets kept in secret : neither is this said onely vnto me , but demonstrated vnto me also , to my great comfort : for , Wesselus Frisius Groningensis ( whom they call Basil ) is lately set out in print , a man of a rare and great spirit , and admirable wit , who ( it appeares ) was truely taught of God , as those Christians were to bee , of which Esay prophesieth . For , it cannot bee thought , that hee receyued his learning from men ; as neither did I. If I had read this Author before , my enemies might haue thought , that I drew all out of Wesselus Store-house , his spirit & mine so perfectly agree .

And as Luther agnized Wesselus for his noble forerunner : so hee imbraced with truest affection the Waldenses ( tearmed , fratres Pigardi ) as appeares in his preface before the 〈◊〉 confession .

Quanqùam fratres hi , per Bohemiam et 〈◊〉 agentes , 〈…〉 annis odioso nomine Pigardi sen haretici e●schism a●ici sint traducti , visum est meo quaque testimonia , 〈◊〉 possum illis seruire● ( 〈◊〉 quid volet 〈◊〉 ●estimonium ) praesertim apud 〈◊〉 .

Cùm esse● papista , verè et 〈◊〉 animo istos Pigard●s fratres odiebam magno zelo Dei et religionis , nullo emnin● lucri aut gloriae studio . Denique , cùm aliquando in aliquot libros Io. Hus impru●●●s incidissem , et Scripturas tam potenter et purè tractatas vidissem , vt ●●●pere inciperem , cur talem ac tantum virum exususse●● Papa et Concilium ; mo●● territ●● , clausi codicem , suspicatus venenum sub melle l●cre , quo 〈…〉 infici posset : tam violentum regnabat in 〈…〉 papalis nominis et Concilij .

Sed post ●uam , &c. ibi caepit gaudium cordis mei : et circumspectis omnibus , quos Papa pro hareticis dam●anerat , et per●iderat , pro Sancti● et Marty●●b●● laudabam , praeser tim quorum pia scrip●●a vel confessiones potui reper●re .

Inter hos autem occurr●bant et isti fratres ( quos Pigardos vocabant ) iam mihi non ita inuisi , vt 〈◊〉 erant in papistate mea . Denique offendi in eis 〈◊〉 illud et magnum miracul●●m , in ●eclesiâ Pap● penè in●uditum ; scilicet quòd , omissis homi●●● d●ctri●is , quantùm poterant , meditarentur in lege Domini die ac nocte , esseque eos in Scripturis peritos et paratos , cùm in papatis ipsimagistri nostri prorsus negligerent Scripturas .

Et gratulari tum illis tum nobis , quòd qui inter nos ipsos quoque longe fuimus , destructo nunc interstitio suspitionis , quae nobis mut●ò haeretici videbamur , facti sumus propè , et reducti simul sumus in vnum ou●le . Commendo igitur in Domino omnibus piis et hanc confessionem fratrum , in qua videbunt clarè , quantâ iniuriâ hactenus à Papistis fuerint damnati et vexati .

Although these brethren dwelling in Bohemia and Morauia , haue set forth the confession of their faith & doctrine in their owne bookes , more dexterously and learnedly , then that they need my commendation or preface : yet in as much as for these many yeeres they haue been branded with the odious name of Pigards , Hereticks and Schismaticks , I thought fit to afford them my best testimonie among our owne , if yet it beare any weight at all .

When I was a Papist , I truely & from my heart hated these brethren tearmed Pigards , out of a great zeale of God and Religion , and not out of any desire of glory or gain● and when 〈◊〉 vnawares I lighted on some of the bookes of Iob● Hus , and therein obserued the Scriptures so powerfully and so purely handled , that I began to maruell why the Pope and his Councell should burne a man of such worth : presently I shut the booke ; suspecting , that vnder hony there might lye hid some poyson , where-with my simplicitie might haue been infected . So strongly was I bewitched with the name of a Pope and a Councell .

But after that , &c. there began the ioy of my heart : and viewing all those whom the Pope had condemned , and put to death for Heretiques , I esteemed them as Saints & Martyrs ; especially those whose godly writings and confessions I could finde , &c.

Among these , I met with those brethren whom they call Pigards , who were not now so hatefull to mee , as they had been formerly in the time of my Popery . To be briefe , I found in these men a miracle , and that a very great one , almost vnheard of in the Popish Church , to wit , that these men , leauing the doctrines of men , to the vtmost of their indeauour meditated in the Law of God day and night , and were very readie and skilfull in Scriptures ; whereas in the papacie , the greatest clarkes vtterly neglect the Scriptures .

And I could not but congratulate both them & vs , that we who before were far seuered one from another ( esteeming each other as Heretiques ) now by the breaking downe of the partition wall of suspition , became neere one to the other , and were together brought into one Sheepefold .

Wherefore I commend to all the seruants of God , this confession of the Brethren , whereby all men may cleerely perceiue how wrongfully they haue beene condemned and vexed by the Papists .

Now how worthily Martin Luther conceyued of Iohn Hus and Hierom of Prague , it appeares by those his words in Asser. articul . 32. Iohannem Hus et Hieronymum , viros catholic●s , combusserunt haeretici ipsi , & Apostatae , & Antichristi discipuli : they burnd Iohn Hus and Hierom , both Catholique men , they being themselues Heretiques and Apostataes , and the disciples of Antichrist . And in his first preface to some of the Epistles of Hus , prefixed to the works of Hus , In numero istorum operum sanctissimi Domini papae habetur et hoc , quòd in Constantiensi Concilio optimum et pijssimum virum Iohannem Hus damnauit : In the number of those workes of the holy Father the Pope , this is one , that in the Councell of Constance , hee condemned Iohn Hus , a man of singular worth and extraordinary piety : And in the second preface , Has Epistolas sancti Martyris , Iohannis Hus , &c. These Epistles of the holy Martyr Iohn Hus : And in his third Preface , A fide dignis hominibus percepi , Imperatorem Maximilianum , de Iohanne Hus dicere solitum , Hei ! hei ! secerunt bono illi viro iniuriam . Et Erasmus Roter . in primis libellis ( quos typis excusos adhuc mecum habeo ) manifestè scribit , Iohannem Hus exustum quidem sed non conuictum esse . Tale omni tempore bonorum virorum iudicium fuit quòd illata ei sit vis et iniuria . Et paulò pòst porrò , In confesso est attestantibus et aduersarijs ( quorum ipse nonn●ll●s , eosque magnos theologos , audiui ante annos 30 ) , fuisse 〈◊〉 excellenter doctum , et eruditione atque doctrinâ antecellüisse omnibus Doctoribus in toto Concili● . Ego olim Erphordiae studij Theologiae tyro , incidens in librum sermonum Iohannis Hus , prae euriositate quadam incendebar desiderio cognoscendi , quaenam dogmata haeresiarcha ille sparsisset , cùm hic liber in publica Bibliothecâ ab incendio sernatu● esset : ●itert● inter l●gendum obstupefactu● , admiratione afficiebar propè incre dibili , quam ob causam tandem ex●●●●s esset vir tantus , in explicandâ et tractandâ scripturâ tam dexter et grauis , &c. I haue heard from men of credit , that the Emperour Maximilian was wont to say of Iohn Hus : Alas ! alas ! they did that good man wrong : and Erasmus Roterodam in the first bookes which hee printed ( lying yet by me ) writeth , that indeed Iohn Hus was burned , but not conuicted . This was the iudgement of learned men alwaies , concerning Iohn Hus , that great wrong and violence was offered vnto him . For proofe whereof , hee alleageth Doctor Sta●pritius , and Andrew Praule ; and in the end , addeth moreouer , It is a thing confessed , euen by our Aduersaries themselues ( some of whom , beeing great Diuines , I heard 30 yeeres agoe ) , that Iohn Hus was excellently learned , and farre beyond all the Doctors in that Councell . I my selfe , when I was a young Student in Diuinity at Erford , meeting with a booke of Sermons , penn'd by Iohn Hus , was inflamed with a desire of reading it thorow , that I might know what were the heresies which this Arch-heretick broached . This book was happily kept from burning , lying hid among many other in the publique Library : in the reading whereof , I was amazed , and could not sufficiently admire what the cause might be , that so great a Clarke , so expert and dexterous in expounding and handling Scripture , should bee burned .

Thus you see , how farre Luther was from detracting from any of his fore-runners : to whom hee yeelded as ample a testimony for the Truth , as they had yelded to the Truth . And I desire the indifferent Reader to obserue , how Iohn Hus his prophesie before his death , was fulfilled in Luthers vindicating his doctrine and person . Iohn Hus his words were , which are yet to bee seene , stamped in antient coyne , currant among the Hussites , Centum reuolutis annis , &c. After a hundred yeeres , you shall answer God and mee : and some affirme , that hee added , Iam Hus , that is , in the Bohemian Language , Goose : but there shall follow mee a Swan , &c. And indeed , after a hundred yeeres , that Swan appeared in the world , which most sweetly beganne to record the pure notes of the Songs of Sion , whose strong quill hath eternized Iohn Hus his innocencie of life , and purity of Doctrine .

Master FISHER .

Wherefore the Lutheran Conradus , In theol . Calu. l. 2. fol. 130. versus finem . Schlusenburg saith , It is impudencie to say , that many learned men in Germany ( and the like is of other countries ) before Luther , did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell .

And another of them not onely saith in effect thus much , Geo. Mylli . in Augu tanae Confessionis explic . art. 70. de Eccles. but prooueth it by this Argument , If there had beene right beleeuers that went before Luther in his office , there had beene no need of a Lutheran reformation . page 137. Benedict . Morgenst . tract . de Eccl. page 145. Another saith , It is ridiculous to think , that in the time before Luther , any had the purity of doctrine , and that Luther should receiue if from them , and 〈◊〉 they from Luther ; considering , saith hee , it is manifest to the whole world that before Luthers time , all Churches were ouer-whelmed with more then C●merian darknesse , and that Luther was diuinely raised vp to discouer the same , and to restore the light of true doctrine .

Doctor FEATLY'S Answer .

First , I would haue you to know , M. Fisher , that I hold my self no way bound to giue an account of euery rayling or ouer-lashing Lutherans speech , no more then you will vndertake to make good euery inuectiue of the secular Priests against the Iesuites : such Writers of the pet●y forme , of little antiquity , and lesse learning , were not wont to be alledged in controuersies of moment in Diuinity . But I perceiue by you , M. Fisher , that ( according to the Prouerb ) all is fish that commeth to your net . If these three had ioyntly testified that for which you cite them , yet their testimonies might soone bee blowne away , by the conspiring breath of many Protestants of better rank then they . Apologet. Regius , alledged by your owne Brerely , testifyeth most expresly the contrary : Dico fuisse ante Lutherum , verae Religionis et qui cum Luthero per omnia consentires , coetum Ecclesiasticum etsi à pontificijs non fuerit agnitus , nec propter tyrannidem pontificium fortasse ostendi visibiliter potuerit . I say , that before Luther there was a companie professing the true Religion of the same beliefe with Luther , although this company was not agnized by the Papists , nor peraduenture could visibly be shewne or poynted at , by reason of the Popish tyrannie . * * Whitakerus de Eccles. cont. Bellar. controuers. secunda . Nostra Ecclesia tum fuit . At non fuit visibilis , inquit Bellarminus . Quid tum ? an ideo non fuit ? Nequaquam : latc●at enim tum in solitudine . Whitaker auowes Regius : Our Church was then ( viz. in the Ages before Luther ) . But it was not visible , saith Bellarmine ( to weet , in the Popish sense ) . What then ? Will it follow , that therefore it was not at all in the world ? By no meanes ; for it lay hid in the Desart . O●colampadius and Martin Bucers Letters to the Waldenses , are extant in their works . I might alledge the testimonies of Constance and a a In Apocalip . Bullinger , b b In orat de Wald. Vesembekius , c c De vera et falsa relig. l. 4. Viret , d d In his memorials of the Waldenses . Vignea●s , e e Epist. 250 et . 251 et 179. Caluin , f f De viris illustrib . Beza , g g In resp. ad Camp. ratio 3. Humfrey , h h His acts and Monuments . Fox , i i In catal test . veritatis . Illyri●us , and many other Protestants of higher rank , then such sneakers as Schlusenburg , or Myllius , or Morgenst . All the former acknowledge , that the Hussites and Waldenses walked with a right foot in that way of Truth , which since Luther ( blessed bee God ) hath beene much more cleerely discouered , and trodden , then in former times . If Protestant Writers sway little with you , who yet could better tell then you , or M. Sweet , and such other new vpstart Iesuites , who were Luthers forerunners ; learne of your owne k k Contra Waldens . Rainerius , and l l Contra Waldens . Claudius de Seissel , and m m Hist. Hussit . l. 1. Cocleus , and n n in tabulis & alit . Lyndanus , and o o Hist. ciuit . Iudg. l. 3. Claudius Rubis , and p p Hist. Bohem. Aeneas Syluius , and q q Hist. Bohem. Iohn Dubranius , and r r Contra haeres . Alfonsus à Castro , and the Author of the Fasciculus rerum exet : and many other , that the Waldenses bore a Torch before Luther , and shewed him his way . Yea but Schlusenburg saith , It is impudencie to say , that many learned men in Germany did hold the doctrine of the Lutheran Gospell . Schlusenburgs words are , Impudenter scribit Vtenboyus seex Conrado Pellicano audiuisse , multos viros eruditos in Germaniâ , priusquam prodiret Lutherus , euangelij doctrinam tenüisse ; adeoque , ipsum Pellicanum , priusquam auditum esset nomen Lutheri , Purgatorium Papisticum reiecisse . Vtenboius writes impudently , that he heard Conradus Pellicanus affirme , that many learned men in Germany held the doctrine of the Gospell , before Luther appeared ; and that Pellicanus himselfe impugned the Popish Purgatory , before the name of Luther was heard . For ought I know , Vtenboius is as honest a man , as Schlusenburgius : and if Schlusenburgius deny it , Vtenboius affirmeth it , yea , and ( for ought is prooued to the contrary ) Conradus Pellicanus also : yet that which Schlusenburg maintaineth for the honor of his Master , no way helpeth your cause : for , admit there were not in Germany , yet there might bee elsewhere many thousands , as in Bohemia , France , England , &c. who , before Luther , embraced the doctrine of the Gospell .

Secondly , in Germany it selfe , there were not multi eruditi viri , many learned men ; yet there might be some , for ought Schlusenburg saith to the contrary : therefore Schlusenburges testimony falls very short , neither doth George Myllius his come much neerer to the marke . His words are , Si antecessores Lutherus in officio habuisset Orthodoxos ; Si Apostasia commissa ab Episcopis Pontificijs non fuisset , Lutherana reformatione opus non fuisset . Non ergo possumus veros monstrare Episcopos , qui ante Lutherum sub Papatu fuerint praedecessores Lutheri . Si enim tales fuissent in Romana Ecclesia discedendi ab ista , causa non fuisset . If Luther had had orthodoxall Predecessors in his Office ; If the Popish Bishop had not made an Apostasie , there should haue beene no need of a Lutheran Reformation . Therefore , we cannot shew true Bishops vnder the Papacie , to whom Luther succeeded : for if there had beene such in the Romane Church , there had beene no cause to depart from it . What makes this testimony for you ? Is it for the honor of your Church , to bee truly branded with Apostasie ? to haue no orthodoxal Bishops bearing rule in it ? What though there were no right-beleeuing Bishops vnder or in the Papacy ; will it follow , that there were no right-beleeuing Christians elsewhere ? It is true , Reformation presupposeth a Deformation , as a remedy presupposeth a disease ; & a purgation precedent matter fit to bee purged . Though the Romane Church , or rather the predominant faction in the Romane Church , was vnsound in the faith , and very corrupt and rotten ; yet were there other sound members of Christs Church , in whose steps , it is well knowne , that Luther trod . What a paralyticall Paralogisme is this ? Myllius a Lutheran affirmeth , that There were 〈◊〉 orthodoxall or right-beleeuing Bishops in the Romane Sea , therfore there were no visible Protestants in all the world before Luther . Now for Benedictus Morgenst , Non est inuentus in Baliua nostra . Hee who found him for you , makes him runne the same way with * * Brerely Protest . Ap●l . Sect. 11. de Fraet . orthod. Eccles. Ioachimus Camerarius , but not whither you would haue him . They both stand for the honor of Luther , and maintaine , that he alone laid the first stone in the Fabrick of reformation , & that none ought to share with him in that dignity , in beeing the first Apostle of the reformed Churches . They will not endure , that Luther should be thought to draw water out of any other Cisterne , but out of the Fountaine of liuing water , the Scriptures . Wicklef indeed , saith Ioachimus , was instructed by the Waldenses , and Hus by Wicklef : but Luther receiued his doctrine neither from Hus nor Wicklef , but was 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , taught of himselfe out of Scriptures . This preeminency all Protestants doe not willingly grant to Luther . Zuinglius and Pellicanus , and Vtenboius , and your owne Alfonsus à Castro , seeme to make others as ready & forward at that time , as Luther . And indeed , whether Luther set Zuinglius , or Zuinglius Luther first a-work , or whether the Spirit of God stird vp both their spirits at the same instant , to set to that noble work of repairing and reforming Gods Temple , I hold it needlesse to define . Let Luther and Zuinglius , and many other their contemporaries and fellow-workmen in that great work , shine as so many precious stones in the foundation of the reformed Churches : Ne sit primus , nec vel imus quispiam . Will it follow , that because Luther was 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and did not tind his candle at another mans light , therefore there was no visible Protestant at that time , but hee ? It will follow , say you , because Morgenst addeth , that . It is manifest to the whole world , that before Luther's time , all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknesse . And you adde also to Morgenst , fiue other corroboratory testimonies , of Caluin , Bucer , Beza , Iewell and Perkins : whereunto after I haue giuen a direct and particular answer , I will dismisse you .

Master FISHER .

And lest this may bee thought to haue beene onely the conceit of Luther and Lutherans ( who yet could better tell , then D. Featly , D. White , and such other new Masters ) I will adde heereunto what is said , first , by (5) (5) Caluin in l. Epist. ep. 141. Caluin , who doth acknowledge , that in this Lutheran reformation , there was made a discession or departure from all the world . Secondly , by (6) (6) Bucer Ep. ad Epis. Hereford . Bucer , who calleth Luther the first Apostle of the reformed doctrine . Thirdly , by Beza (7) (7) Beza in Theol. Ep. Epist. 5. a principall Caluinist , who teacheth , that at this time , ordinary vocation of the Church-men was no where extant ; and consequently teacheth , that there was at that time no visible Church , and so if any Church at all , it was onely inuisible , as is affirmed euen by our owne English Protestant Diuines , namely (8) (8) Iewel , in his Apologie of the Church , cap. 4. diuis. 2. and in his defence 40. Master Iewel , who saith , The truth was vnknowne and vnheard of , when Martin Luther and Viderick Zuinglius first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell ; and M. Perkins , (9) (9) Perkins in his Expos. of the Creed , who saith , Wee say , that before the daies of Luther , for the space of many hundred yeeres , an vniuersall Apostasie ouer-spred the whole face of the earth , and that our ( Protestant ) Church was not visible to the world .

Doctor FEATLY .

When Caluin saith , There was a departure made from all the world ; and Morgenst , That all Churches were ouerwhelmed with more then Cymerian darknes ; and Perkins , that An vniuersall Apostasie ouerspred the whole face of the earth ; and Iewell ; that Luther & Zuinglius were most excellent men sent from God , to giue light to the whole world : their meaning is not , that there was no light in those times in Goshen , or that there were no Abdiases , with many other Prophets lying in secret ; or that there were not many thousands that neuer bowed the knee to the Romish Baal : for they all affirme the contrary in sundry places of their writings . But they take the word World , as it is vsually taken both in sacred & prophane Writers , for the greater part of the world , or at least , that part that beareth the greatest sway , and is in a manner onely in voage . Their words sound according to the Tenor of those in S. Iohn ; The whole world is set on wickednesse ; and the like in S. Ierome , Totus mundus ingemuit se factum Arrianum ; the whole world sighed , that it became Arrian . As Luther , so Caluin also acknowledgeth , that Christ hath alwaies had his floore on earth , sometimes more , sometimes lesse purged : And further , they deny not , but that before the publick and generall purging of the floore of the visible Church , from the chaffe of Romish superstitions in our daies , there were many that in sundry corners of the earth , seuered diuers heaps of wheat from the chaffe , and clensed it from darnell & tares . Among whom , were Fratres Pigardi , a remainder of the Waldenses ; betweene whom , and Caluin , many kinde offices passed , as their mutuall Letters testifie , extant in Caluins works . Inter Epist. Calu. Ep. 250. Quomam , vir venerande , ante annos circiter triginta , inter humanit atem tuam , tum Argentina agentem , & fratres qui falso Pigardi vel Waldenses dicuntur , charis●imos in Domino Patres nostros sancta intercessit no●itna & familiaritas , &c. Thus one of the Preachers of the Waldenses writes to Caluin :

Reuerend in the Lord : because aboue 30 yeeres agoe , when you remained at Argentine , there was an holy league of loue and entire friendship and familiarity betweene you and the brethren , who are falsely termed Pigards or Waldenses , our dearest Fathers in the Lord ; Wee , who now hold the place of those our Fathers , ( whom God hath called , almost all of them , out of this mortall life ) thought fit to renew that knowledge , or rather band of Christian loue , wherewith all the seruants of God , especially the Ministers of the Gospell , ought to be most strictly and firmely knit together .

To the former letter , Caluin returnes this courteous answer , Gratias agimus non vulgares , quòd Fratres qui vestrierga nos amoris fraternaque coniuncti●nis testes essent , et qu ●si Sponsores mittere grauati non estis : eóque libentiùs offici●●m hoc vest rum s●●nus amplexi , qu●a ex sinceran pietatis studio manabat . Cupimus idem vicissem v●bis de propenso nostro ad fouendam sanctam vnitatem affectu persu ●sum esse , &c. Epist. 251. Wee render you more then ordinary thankes , for sending the brethren vnto vs , who may remaine as witnesses and pledges of your loue towards vs , and brotherly coniunction ; which kind office of yours , wee the more willingly embrace , because it flowed from a sincere loue of true Religion . Wee desire that you will be likewise perswaded of the like affection in vs towards you , and the great desire we haue to cherish this holy vnity among vs . For , being so farre remooued one from another , and compassed round about with enemies , who take vp the greater part of the world , it is a great delight vnto vs to enioy yet this comfort of our dispersion , &c.

Againe , the same Caluin in his Epistles , Epist. 179. to Stanist . Carninsk , thus writeth of the Waldenses : * * De vestro cum Waldensibus consensu optima quaeque spero , non modò quia sanctam vnitatem , in quam coalescunt Christi membra , Deus semper benedicere solitus est , sed quòd inter haec rudimenta , fratrum Waldensium peritiam , quam longo vsu Dominus exercuit , non vulgari adiumento vobis fore spero . Quare vobis omnibus danda est opera , vt haec pia conspiratio magis ac magis sanciatur , &c. I hope the best of your agreement with the Waldenses ; not onely , because God alwaies vseth to blesse the holy vnity , in which the members of Christ grow vp together , but also , because in these your rudiments and beginnings , I conceiue , that the skill and long experience of the Waldenses , will bee an extraordinary help vnto you : wherefore all of you must doe the vttermost of your endeuours , that this holy agreement & consent betweene you , may more and more be established , &c.

Martin Bucer ( whom you alleage in the next place ) held the like correspondence with the Waldenses , as may be gathered from that Letter of his which hee wrote vnto them .

Blessed be the Lord God our louing Father , who hath preserued you to this present time , in so great knowledge of his truth , and who hath now inspired you in the search thereof , hauing made you capable and fit to doe it . Behold now , what the nature of true faith is , which is , that so soone as it knowes in part any spark of the diuine light , it preserueth carefully the things that are giuen vnto it of God . Saint Paul is an example to vs , who in all his epistles , shewes the great care that he hath had to procure the glory of God . And doubtlesse , if wee pray with a good heart , that the name of God be sanctified , and his Kingdome may come , we shall prosecute nothing with such diligence , as the establishment of the truth where it is not , and the aduancement thereof where it is already planted . One onely thing doth especially grieue mee , that our imployments at this time are such , about other affaires , that wee haue no leasure to answer you at large , as we desire , &c.

By the contents of this Letter , and many other passages in Bucers Works , which for breuities sake I omit , it appeares that Bucer , in calling Luther the first Apostle of the reformed Doctrine , did not thereby intend , that Luther was the first that euer preached the Doctrine of the reformed Churches ; for , hee could not bee ignorant , that after Christ and his Apostles , and the Fathers for 6 or 700 yeers , Bertram , & Elfrick , & Berengarius , and Petrus Brus , and Henry of Tolous , and Dulcinus , and Arnoldus , and Lollardus , and Wicklef , and Hus , and Ierome of Prague , and many other Starres , fought in their courses against the Romish Sisera . But Bucers meaning is , that Luther was the first , who in our Age and memory , publikely and success-fully set on foot a generall Reformation of the Church in these Westerne parts : when the corrupt matter of Popish errors and superstitions long in gathering , grew now to a ripe coare , Luther was the first who openly lanced it . Luther formed no new Church , but reformed the Church hee found ; and therefore cannot bee termed , The first Apostle of Protestant Doctrine ; although , in a tolerable sense , hee may be stiled , The first Apostle of the happie Reformation in our daies . Luther burnisht and refined the gold of the Sanctuary , obscured with rust : he made not new gold .

In your allegation out of Beza , by suppressing the Aduerb ( penè , almost ) , you shew your selfe , non penè , not almost , sed penitùs , altogether a falsificator . Beza's words , Epist. 5. are , Huic tum demum locum esse dicimus , cùm vel nulla , vel penè nulla est ordinaria vocatio , sicut nostris temporibus accidit in Papatu . We say , that then extraordinary calling takes place , when there is either no , or almost no ordinary vocation ( of Pastors ) , as in our time fell out in the Papacie . This ( almost ) you omit altogether . For Beza's opinion , touching extraordinary calling , as I doe not heere oppugne , so much lesse doe I vndertake to maintaine . We can , and haue prooued lawfull & ordinary calling in our Church of England , as you may see in M. Masons most accomplished Treatise of this Subject , lately reuised by him before his death , and translated into Latine , at this instant sweating vnder the Presse . Admit , there had beene no ordinary calling of right-beleeuing Church-men , Bishops , or Priests , when Luther did first sound his siluer Trumpet : what will you inferre thereupon ? that at that time there was no visible Church ? There Beza leaues you , who professeth both a visible Church in generall , consisting of members , sound and vnsound , and these more or lesse ; and in particular , In his booke of worthy men . hee calleth the Waldenses , The seed of the most pure , antient , Christian Church , which was miraculously preserued in the midst of the darknes and errors , which haue beene hatched by Satan in these latter times . And as Beza leaues you , in this your inference , so also doth the Truth : For , although the Ship of Christ is in great danger , when erronious Pastors , like false lights , are set vp in the Watch-Towers of Sion , yet , sith our chiefe Pilot hath forewarned vs heereof , and bid vs take heede of false prophets and teachers , and hath left vs a most certaine direction in his Word , which is the true Light , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 conduct vs to those pulchri portus , the faire Hauens in Heauen ; the people of God may keepe the right way , and through Gods grace escape the quick-sands of heresie . As God bestoweth diuers gifts of the Spirit ordinarily vpon the Clergie , so he bestoweth also where he pleaseth , Spiritum discretionis , in the Laytie , a Spirit whereby they may discerne spirits , whether they are of God or no ; a Spirit , by which , trying all things , they may hold fast that is good . And if their ghostly Fathers offer them a stone for bread , Mat. 7. 9 , 10. or a Serpent for fish , they will cast it away : Or if more cunningly they shall mingle error and heresie with truth , and offer them , as your Teachers did and doe , an apple with a worme in it , or a cup of wine with a dead Fly , they will take out the worm and Fly , and then eat of the one , and drink of the other . This is that which * * Baltasar Praefat. in Waldens . Lydius truly obserueth , Oft-times the eares of the Auditors are purer then the tongue of the Preacher . Hee deliuers vngarbled spices , they garble it ; vnsifted meale , they sift and boult it ; impure milke , they straine it . In the daies of Ieremy , and much more after the death of the Prophet Malachy , vntill the birth of Christ , there were few * * ( I would see a Catalogue of true Teachers of the infallible faith in those times . ) Doctors in Israel , that rightly expounded the Law , and taught Gods people as they ought : yet no man doubts that God had then a visible Church ; as also afterwards in the time of the Arrian & Eutychian persecution , in which there were very few Bishops or Pastors vntainted with those heresies : Therefore , although we should grant you your antecedent out of Beza , that there was no ordinary vocation at that time , of pure and sincere Teachers , yet wee will barre you of your conclusion , that at that time there was no visible Church . Our English Diuines , alledged by you , affirme no such thing . Perkins saith not , that our Church was simply inuisible , but that it was not visible to the world ; adding in the same place , that it lay hid vnder the chaffe of Popery . And the truth of this , saith hee , the Records of all Ages manifest . The same Perkins , in his Reformed Catholick , more fully explaineth his meaning , thus : Though Popery raigned and ouerspred the face of the earth , for many hundred yeeres : yet in the middest thereof , God reserued a people to himselfe , that truly worshipped him ; The woman fled into the wildernesse , &c. And she still retaines a remnant of her seed , which keepe the commandement of God , and haue the testimony of Iesus Christ . See here how farre hee is from denying a Protestant Church extant● that he affirmeth it to haue growne vp and thriued , euen in the Thicket of Popery , though much ouer-shadowed and ouer-topped . Neither can you finde any flaw or cloud in that orient Ge●●●● of our Church , Apolog. part. 4. cap. 4. Diuis. 2. Bishop Iewell , whose words are these : When in the middest of the darknesse of that Age , first beganne to spring and shine some glimmering beame of truth , vnknowne at that time , and 〈◊〉 of ; When also Martin Luther , and H●lderick Zuinglius , beeing most excellent men , euen seek from God , to giue light to the whole world , first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospell , &c. A Diamond cannot bee cut or polished but by a Diamond : Let therefore this Iewell brighten and cleere himselfe . In the same part of the Apologie , Chap. 5. Diuis. 1. hee calleth Martin Luther , the publisher and setter forward of this doctrine ( not the Author ) ; And Chap. 14. Diuis. 1. he fully cleeres the point in difference betweene vs , touching visible Protestants before Luther : Many 〈◊〉 many learned and godly men , haue often and carefully complained , how all these things haue cleered 〈◊〉 time : For , euen in the middest of that 〈◊〉 darknesse God would yet there should bee some , who though they gaue not a cleere & bright light ; yet should kindle , were it but some sparks , which men being in darknesse , might espie . And hee particularly 〈…〉 Hillary , Gregory , Bernard , Pauperes de Lugd●●● , 〈◊〉 Bishops of Greece and Asia as also 〈…〉 Petrach , Sauanarolla , and others . And Chapter 15. he preuenteth a c●uill , that might haue bin made against these witnesses of the truth , by some ignorant persons . Neither ( saith hee ) can any man alleage , that these Authors were Luthers or Zuinglius Schollers : for they liued not only certaine yeeres , but also certaine Ages , ●re euer Luther or Zuinglius names were heard of .

Now , I pray see , M. Fisher , what a goodly dish of fish you haue serued in , to furnish your Table , and let the indifferent : Reader iudge , whether you may safely trust M. Brer●ly , or wee you , in allegations , especially out of Protestant Writers ; whose words either you corrupt , or adulterate their meaning , or both , as euidently appeares in all the places aboue-cited .

And thus haue I now at length spung'd out all the spots , which your pen hath cast on the Conference . As for personall aspersions vpon mee , especialy , of want of grauity and patience , I hold it fittest to refell these and the like slanders by silent and patient enduring them . As you heerein take Petilian the Donatist , for your precedent of impudent railing , so I will take Saint Austen for my patterne of silent patience , and cloze vp all further Answer in his words : Lib 3. cont. ●iteras Petil. cap. 11. Quid mirum , si cùm grana de areâ Domini excussa , simul & paleam intror sum trabo , iniuriam resilientis pulueris suffero ? What maruell , if in sweeping the Lords floore , and seeking to gather-in graines that are flowne out , I endure a little dust ? Homo sum enim de areâ Christi ; palea ▪ si malus ; granum , si bonus ; non est h●ius area v●ni●labrum lingus Petiliani : I am a man , and I know I am of Christs floore , that is , in his true visible Church ; all the Papists in the world shall neuer disprooue it : If I am euill ; I am chaffe ; if good , I am wheat : and whether I bee the one or the other , this is my comfort , I am sure , the Iesuites tongue is not the fanne of this floore . What I haue written touching the visibility of Christs true Church , I ( in all humility ) submit to the iudgement of the true visible Church . I hope , the Truth shall suffer nothing , because of mee : and if I suffer any thing , by loose tongues or pens , because of the Truth , I will account it my Ioy & Crowne in the Day of our Lord Iesus Christ : To whose sauing grace , and boundlesse mercy , I commend all those who loue Truth in sincerity .

〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

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