Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A01042 of text S102413 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 11147). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 336 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 81 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A01042 STC 11147 ESTC S102413 99838198 99838198 2564 2240914530

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A01042) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 2564) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 887:08) Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions there-of answered. By P.A. Forbes, Patrick, 1564-1635. 166, [2] p. Printed by Edward Raban, dwelling vpon the Market-place, at the towns arms, Aberdene : 1627. P.A. = Patricius Aberdonensis? i.e. Patrick Forbes. Prints and replies to a version of the verses appended to the anonymous "The love of the soule" (STC 17505). With a final errata leaf. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Catholic Church -- Controversial literature. Love of the soule. eebo Eubulus, or A dialogue, where-in a rugged Romish rhyme, (inscrybed, Catholicke questions, to the Protestaut [sic]) is confuted, and the questions ther Forbes, Patrick 1627 162 64887 432 0 0 0 2 8 439.53 F The rate of 439.53 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the F category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2003-06 Assigned for keying and markup 2003-06 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2003-07 Sampled and proofread 2003-07 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2003-08 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

EUBULUS , OR A DIALOGVE ,

Where-in a rugged Romish Ryme , ( inscrybed , Catholicke Questions , to the Protestant ) is confuted , and the Questions there-of answered .

BY P. A.

Answere a Foole to his foolishnesse , lest hee bee wyse in his owne conceit . Proverbs , 26. 5.

ABERDENE , PRINTED BY EDWARD RABAN , Dwelling vpon the Market-place , At the Towns Arms , 1627.

WITH PRIVILEDGE .

TO THE MOST HONOVRABLE , VERTVOVS , and Christian Ladie , ANNA , LADIE GORDON , &c.

OF this DIALOGVE , ( MADAME ) written , now , thirteene Yeares a-goe , no more was , at that tyme , intended , but a few Manuscripts , for satisfying some Godlie Myndes , and obviating the insolencie of some ignorant , and ydle Humours ; foolishlie glorying of nothing : Yet , even so , was it bolde , then , to betake it selfe to the shadow of Your most Honourable NAME , though it never had yet the Cowrage , to present it selfe , to a Kisse of Your Hands : and , perhaps , had lyen buried in this its Shamefastnesse , for ever , if , vpon the renewed impudent Importunitie , of the same sort of Men , at the instant desyre of some well-affected Christians , it did not now come out , to a more publicke view of the World .

In which case , if it should eyther neglect , or disclayme , so Noble ( an Ones acclaymed ) Patrocinie ; al-be-it there-by could bee no imparement to Your Honour , ( to whose great worth manie such Dedications can adde no lustre : ) yet , were it some Disgrace , to the Treatise it selfe , and , discredite , al-so , to the Author thereof ; who yet liveth no lesse affected , than ever , to serue Your Ladiship in the LORD .

Receiue , then , that which is Your owne ; as a poore , but an vpright Token , how farre the Author , and all of his Calling , account them-selues obliedged , to giue Your Honour , all Heartening , and Encowragement , for cleaving , so constantlie , ( agaynst manyfolde assaultes and temptations ) to that Trueth , which , heerein , is defended .

The GOD of all Trueth , still more and more , stablish , strengthen , and confirme You there-in : blesse Your most Honourable Lord , and You , with all Happinesse , heere ; and , bring You both , in ende , to Eternall Blessednesse , with HIM-SELFE , in the Heavens .

YOVR LADISHIPS Humble Servant , P. A.
TO THE READER .

IT may , perhaps , ( Christian Reader ) appeare strange to thee , and little beseeming my Place and Age , that I deigne , so ridiculous a Ryme , with so large an Answere , yea , with anie Answere at all . But , so it fell out , that , now , aboue thirteene years a-goe , the perverse Sedulitie , of seducing Priests , and the foolish Insolencie , of ignoran●… Souls , seduced by them , and vaynlie glorying of this their Ballad , which numbers of them had continuallie in their mouthes , who never had eyther read , or gotten by heart , anie one Psalme of David , did worke , in a certayne verie honourable , and worthie Noble Man , such holie Indignation agaynst the one , and pittifull Compassion of the other , as made him seriouslie solicite me , to make some Answere there-to . Which to doe , I was induced by his Intreatie , though much agaynst myne owne Disposition . Who , as I loue , and commend the accurate Inquisition , and clearing of Trueth , by calme , and Christian Conference , and sober , and sedulous Indagation : So , from myne Heart , I ever abborred all litigious Contestation , in what-so-ever Argument ; but , most of all , in matters of Religion , And yet , such is the miserable mishap of our tyme , or rather , of mad Humours in our-time , that nothing is so bitterly , and with so great Heat , Passion , and damnable spyte , debated , as are poyntes of Divinitie . And , this intemperie , hath so farre , in common , taken all myndes , as that all Christianitie , is now turned in odious , and humourous Disputation : and all , both Men and Women , will be , for-sooth , of a partie ; all-be-it most part of them so ignorant , as they know neyther what they holde , or what they impugne : no more understanding what they speake of , than doe Pyo●…s , or Parockets , those wordes which they are taught to prattle . And , withall , so carrying in all their other Conversation , as it is both shame , & sinne , that they should be so and acious , as to take anie such . Argument in their mouthes , who hate to be reformed ; and , in all their wayes make not Conscience of anie Sinne. Yet , they are incessantlie holde , to mooue Questions of Religion : who , beeing posed agayne , can not answere to the simple questions of the Childrens Catechisme . Thus , be at of Disputation , hath not onlie cooled , but even , all-most , extinguished all Devotion : and , not only breedeth Stryfe ; but even , all-where , breaketh out to more vngodlinesse . You shall hardlie fall now in anie fellowship , where you shall not heare some one , or other , question of Religion , egarlie , prophanelie , & miserablie torne , and tossed , amongst such and acious , and impure mouthes , as neyther inwardly in their Souls , 〈◊〉 ●…ny sense , or outwardlie in their carriage , anie practise of true Religion . Will you talke with these Questioners , of true Pietie , of Fayth , of Regeneration , of Christian lyfe , of Mortification , & subduing our affections , of Christian patience , of the worke of GOD'S Spirit in our Soules , for those effectes , of the joyes of the holie Ghost ; or , finallie , of anie case of Conscience : they shall stand as dumbe , as Fishes : you shal be to them a Barbarian , & a●… strange , as one speaking Aethiopian , to an Yrish . With whom , though I ▪ haue no delight to deale in this sort , yet the mouthers of perverse men , must bee stopped : Baal's Priests must bee checked , with holie scorne ; and Fools must be some-tymes answered to their follie , lest they should appeare wyse in their owne conceits . Now , as for these Reasons , I ( having my service then assigned me in those Quarters , where this Folli●… brake foorth ) was at that tyme stirred to wryte this Treatise , and , even then , to giue out some one , or two , Manuscripts there-of ; where-by to calme , some-what , those insolent Insulters ; and , to confirme godlie , though weake , Mynds : and , it having , accordinglie , in some measure , wrought that effect then : I , there-vpon , did cast it by hand , as , in myne owne Estimation , no more vsefull , or to be regarded . But , whyle now agayne , our Adversaries , of late , ( through too great indulgence , and connivence granted them ) haue risen to greater insolencie than before , and , impudentlie , repone to vs , not onlie the same Matter , but , al-so , in the same manner , shameleslie , and senseleslie , still blazing , al-where abroad , this their Proper Ballad , a●… if never anie thing had beene sayd there-vnto : divers well affected Brethren , ( knowing that I had a Copie there-of by me ) dealt instantlie with me , that this Treatise might be put to the PRESSE . For whose satisfaction , I haue given way to the Printing of it : wishing , heartilie , it may both please thee , and be profitable vnto thee , and all honest Hearts , seeking , in singlenesse , for Confirmation , and stablishment in Trueth : and praying GOD , that all of vs may seriouslie studie , not so much to Ydle , and vnprofitable Wranglings , as both to learne ourselues , and to teach others , that Doctrine , which is according to godlinesse ▪ Fare-well .

THYNE , IN CHRIST , P. A.
TO PHILADELPHUS . LOE , PHILADELPHVS , how Thy loue hath led mee , To penning of this PAMPHLET , for Thy pleasure : Where-of , with Reason , well I could haue fred mee , If this I durst , with Thy Contentment measure . It may seeme strange , that of my little leasure , I anie part waste on such Wares , so vaynlie : Where-in , all-bee-it weake Women place a Treasure ; Yet hath their Poët playde the Foole so playnlie , As , if my Motiues bee not well esteemed , For answering , I shall a Foole bee deemeed . Thyne Owne , EUBULUS .
The Interlocutors . PROTESTANTES . PHILADELPHVS , EUBULUS , THERIOMACHVS , PAPISTES . PHILOMATHES , ERIPHILVS ,
EVBVLVS , OR , A DIALOGVE , Where-in a rugged Romish Ryme ( inscribed , A proper Ballad , contayning Catholicke Questions to the Protestant ) is confuted , and the Questions there-of answered .
CHAPTER I.

SOme personages of good qualitie , not long agoe , were in a Progresse , partly for recreation , and partlie for some necessarie Dueties , both towards GOD and Men : Amongst whom PHILADELPHUS and EUBULUS ( refreshed each greatlie with others fellowship ) did , ordinarilie , dryue over the tediousnesse of the way , with diverse , not vnprofitable , Discourses . A midst which , one day , at a certayne part of the Countrey , Philadelphus thus spake to Eubulus .

Al-be-it it bee much against my mynde , to part from yo●… anie minute of tyme , yet heere I must controll myne owne affection , and craue you pardon , to divert a little , a side of our way , for saluting a tender Kins-woman ; where-in I shall vse such haste , as , GOD willing , in short space I shall bee with you .

Eubulus .

Sir , you haue reason , not to over-see her : and I I. will heere attende your returne vpon the way .

Now , in little more than an houres space , Philadelphus , returning , had this Speach : How-so-ever I haue taken short tyme , yet in it , haue I learned some-what , which I can not but regrate vnto you . I haue beene visiting a Gentle-woman ( I may say ) of good parts other-wayes , but that , by the deceit of Seducers , her Heart is alienated from the Veritie of GOD HIS true Worship : Which , through the loue I beare her , so pierceth mee , as I could not choose , but , in the little Conference wee had , to aske her , why shee did so obstinatelie obfirme her mynde agaynst Trueth ? Shee answered mee , That shee could obtayne no Resolution to her Soule , of such Scruples , as chiefelie mooved her to abhorre our Communion ; al-be-it shee had so farre sought for it , that shee had delivered her Doubts , in writ , to their Minister , Theriomachus : who receiving them of her hand , with covenant of an Answere , yet had done nothing for his acquytall there-in . And , verilie , if you were acquaynted with her , you would thinke , that all paynes were carefullie to bee employed , where-by shee might bee reclaymed from Errour .

Eubulus .

I can not , but greatlie wonder at this you tell II. mee : for I know Theriomachus to be learned , in such measure , as hee might well anough haue acquyted him-selfe in ought shee had , in that matter , eyther requyred of him , or he promised vnto her . But it is well , that you haue made mee foreseene heere-with ; for I looke , that even heere Theriomachus shall set him-selfe to meete vs ; and so wee may there-by know of him the whole Case . Loe where hee commeth , exceeding opportunitie . GOD saue you , Brother Theriomachus .

Theriomachus .

The LORD blesse you both : and I am glad ●…o see you in these Quarters .

Philadelphus .

How doe you lyke ( Theriomachus ) of your Station heere ?

Theriomachus .

A Souldiour must obey his Captayne , and acquiesce in what-so-ever Station hee pleaseth to assigne him : for Hee is wysest , and well knoweth , what best fitteth everie one of vs . My Station hath taught mee , so experimentallie , what the Apostle meaned , by his fighting with 1. Cor. 15. 32 Beasts at Ephesus , and I haue acquyred such both an actiue , and a passiue vnderstanding there-of , as I may bee bolde to say , I could wryte a large Commentarie vpon that place .

Philadelphus .

I take you well ( Theriomachus : ) you must haue patience : For , how-so-ever no part is so barren , but that it produceth some fine Spirits ; yet , in such a nature of Climate and Soyle as this is , it is no marvell , though the people , in common , haue some in-bred feritie , which , yet , Tyme and Travell may reduce to some more mansuetude .

Theriomachus .

You haue , Sir , in a part , but not thorowlie , taken vp my Case : For besides anie in-bred feritie , they are , most parte of them , inchaunted .

Philadelphus .

What! hath the Rodde of Cyrce touched them ? or hath anie Thessalonian cunning converted their shapes , and made them Asses of Men , as was Lucius Apuleius ? that it may seeme the fore-sight of this Fatalitie , hath made this your Parochin to bee named 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : and you , accordinglie , doe finde , that , in effect , they are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Yet , Theriomachus , you know , that Asses are peaceable and obsequious Beasts , readie to receiue Burdens , wherethrough your fight may bee the more easie .

Theriomachus .

But they are wilde Asses , and heare not the voyce of the Dryver : and are lyke to those Horses and Mules , whose Mouthes must bee bound vp with Bit and Brydle , lest they come neare vs . Yea , their Inchaunters haue so ' bewitched them , as they are maniable onlie to them , and wayward towardes all others . And they are even so contentedlie miserable , as they haue no desire to bee disinchaunted .

Philadelphus ,

You tell vs wonders : For , thus , these Inchaunters should farre exceede all Cyrcees cunning , who , though shee turned the bodilie shape , yet could not bereaue the Inchaunted of their Myndes and Memories , but that they remembered still their proper state , and regrated , inwardlie , their present condition . And the Thessalonian Magicians , could worke no more on Lucius Apuleius .

Theriomachus .

You , yet , in a part , missconceiue mee . I meane not of anie turning of their bodilie shapes , which they retayne still , of Men , whyles yet their Mynds are miserablie metamorphosed .

Haec venena potentius Detrahunt hominem sibi , Quae arcem penitus petunt , Nec nocentia corpori Mentis vulnere seviunt . Eubulus .

Brother Theriomachus , you know , that , for making III. anie , who haue drunken Poyson , to vomit it agayne , sweete Milke , especiallie , must bee given them to drinke : and , for a Chylde , which hath beene misfostered , by sucking in corrupted Milke , you know , that healthsome greene Milke is the best Restoratiue . And thus onlie , in my judgement , you must labour , first , to disinchaunt this people , till , by consuetude , their feritie bee mittigated , and their Stomackes brought to beare more solide Nowrishment . And , as Philadelphus , even now , alluded , verie prettilie , to the name of 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; so may the name of one most speciall place , here , warne vs , by Notation , what , both for it selfe , and for the rest , is requisite : even 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . It is our Lot , Brother , to bee amongst Briers and Thorns , and to dwell in the middes of Scorpions : and our LORD warned vs of our Condition , when Hee sent His Apostles , as Sheepe , in the ●…atth . 1●… . 16. middes of Wolues . There is none of our Calling , and truelie called , but , in some measure , hath this Battell with Beasts : For , as the feare of the LORD , and the keeping ●…lesiast . 1●… . 13 ▪ of His Commandements , is all the Man ; so a Man , even in honour , if hee vnderstand not , is but l●…ke the Beastes that ●…sal . 49. 〈◊〉 . perish . I must , indeede , confesse , that you ( Brother ) are more exercised than manie others : where-through we are holden in a singular care , to comfort you , and in-call GOD , for your vp-holding ; who is sufficientlie able to beare you out in that Service Hee hath put you in , and to furnish you Strength , according to the Burden Hee hath layde on you . But this our Digression vpon your Theriomachie , hath set vs a-side of that which principallie wee had to impart vnto you , and for which wee are speciallie glad , that we are so convenientlie conveaned . Then , turning Eye to Philadelphus ; Sir , you can best make relation , of that which you did latelie heare , and where-with , there-vpon , you did immediatelie acquaynt mee .

Philadelphus .

You know , Theriomachus , that the Ladie of yonder Place , is my tender Kins-woman , and is commended , for both Naturall and Civill Gifts ; for zeale also in Religion , but without knowledge . I asking her , this same day , why shee did remayne so refractarie agaynst the Trueth ? Shee answered , That shee could finde no Resolution to her Soule , of such Doubts , as chiefelie moved her to abhorre our Communion ; al-be-it shee had so farre sought for it , that shee had delivered them to you , in writ : and that you , receiving them of her hand , vpon covenant of an Answere , yet had done nothing for your acquytall there-in ▪ So as this is not onelie an imputation to you , of fayling promise ; but it strengtheneth her also the more in Errour , while your ceasing maketh her think her Questions so strong , that you can finde nothing to answere to them .

Theriomachus .

The Commendation which that Ladie carrieth , for those partes you mention of her , I acknowledge to bee most just . It is true , shee delivered to mee some Questions , in writ ; to all which , in conference with her selfe , I answered , as farre , as in my judgement , might haue satisfied anie Soule , set singlie for Resolution . As for anie answere in writ , I neyther promised , and asking advise of my Brethren , of our Presbyterie , if it were expedient , and , in that case , offering there-to my paynes , they thought it no wayes convenient , to write anie thing against so ridiculous , and oft-times confuted , Cavillations .

Eubulus .

Haue you those Questions by you , that wee IV. may see them ?

Theriomachus .

Heere they are . So taking out a sheete of paper , hee gaue it in Eubulus hands : who , vnfolding it , What , Brother , this is a Ryme ?

Theriomachus .

So it is .

Philadelphus .

I pray you , Eubulus , let vs heare it .

Then Eubulus , having read it over , with a sober Smyle , looked to Philadelphus , and sayde , What doe you thinke , Sir , of these Wares ? Is there in them anie such matter of high boasting to our Adversaries , as that wee should be stirred , to make them answere ? Then , turning to Theriomachus , Truelie , Brother , I both reverence the wise judgement of the Presbyterie , and approue your acquiescing there-to . And , verilie , I both marvell , and greatlie pittie , that a person , other-wayes so well endewed , should bee misscarried with such foolish thinges : which , al-be-it they haue beene manie times answered , by diverse , and that I haue latelie answered each of them particularlie , in my Defence of our Callinges , and Discoverie of the Adversaries Dotage , in the verie selfe Demands , in substance , sent to my selfe ; yet simple Soules are still borne in hand , That these , forsooth , are insoluble Knots . And it is , indeede , no marvell , that they delude so securelie , when , first , they haue brought their Disciples heere-to , That they neyther will reade what wee write , nor heare what wee teach . And if , perhaps , vpon anie such motion , as this is , from anie of them , wee fall to write ought , it is , immediatelie ( without anie eyther reading or pondering what we speake ) put in their Ghostlie Fathers handes : whose word syne , they take for the estimation it is to bee had in ; as I haue latelie learned , even by mine owne experience .

Philadelphus .

I can not denye , Eubulus , but you haue great reason to speake so : yet , in anie Case , I would , that one of you should say some-what to these Questions ; where-by , if the misscarried partie may not bee converted , ( as mine heartes desire were ) yet at least the Questioner his bragging may bee calmed some-what .

Eubulus .

For my pa●…t , I mynde not to answere ought , V. both because in mine other Treatises , I haue alreadie saide , what I esteemed needfull , ( whence anie , who in singlenesse seeketh Resolution , will not wearie to search it ) and because I ever abhorred such kinde of contestation : for that , what , or how oft so-ever wee answere , yet still the same thinges shall bee of new , and impudentlie , obtruded . If you , Brother Theriomachus , thinke it good , you may satisfie Philadelphus here-in : and the Adversarie's insolencie shall so answere for you , to your Brethren , as you neede not feare to finde them such severe Iudges , as was Manlius to his valiant Sonne .

Theriomachus .

What you judge , were ydle labour for you : how can I bee there-in laudablie occupyed ? if anie expediencie were of an Answere , it lyeth now most on you ; for mine imputation is past , and the next , vndoubtedlie , will bee yours . And as it can not escape their knowledge , that you haue both craved , and gotten , a sight of their Questions ; so this will bee their glorying , That from man to man , wee haue all spitted at them , and given them over .

Eubulus .

I am glad , Brother , that in this your daylie Combate VI. with Beastes , you are not yet so mated , but that you are chearfullie disposed to jest with your Friendes . If such motiues as these did alwayes stirre vs , as our Adversaries are disposed , there should never bee anie ende of jangling . Alwayes , if it please you , I will retaine this Rime some dayes , and there-after sende it vnto you .

Theriomachus .

So that you send it backe , with what-so-ever children you shall beget vpon it , that I may haue mine own , with increase : and now , with this condition , I must take my leaue of you both , for such instant necessities as force mee , against my will , to breake you companie : and I perceiue some others casting them-selues in the way to meete you . The Blessing of the LORD bee with you .

Philadelphus , and Eubulus , The Grace of GOD accompanie , comfort , and strengthen you .

Eubulus .

You see ( Philadelphus ) vpon how light and small VII . grounds , our Adversaries builde vp to them-selues , matter of glorying against vs : but , I pray you , what two Gentlemen are these , who , as seemeth , are drawing towards vs ?

Philadelphus .

If I take them rightlie vp , the one is Eriphilus , and the other is Philomathes ; both two Papists , but of a much-different disposition : for this Eriphilus , is of a bitter , and contentious humour ; the other , Philomathes , of a sweet , modest , naturall , and , other-wayes , as towardlie a Gentleman , as I know anie ; but that hee is not , yet , well lightened in the true way of GOD His feare : and , I thinke , they bee comming to salute mee . These same are the Men.

Philomathes .

Doe you know ( Eriphilus ) what Gentle-man this is , which accompanieth Philadelphus ?

Eriphilus .

What ? ( Philomathes ) haue you not , as yet , knowne Eubulus ? whome , I can not tell , what phreneticke Fansies , or melancholious Mi●…contentmentes , haue , of late yeares , driven of a private Gentle-man , to become a Preacher : and , hee hath so bewitched the miscarried fansie of Philadelphus , that hee maketh no small account of his fellowship : yea , even my Lord , his Father , and my Ladie , his Mother , carrie him no lesse reverence , and loue , than if he were , forsooth , a person of some worth .

Philomathes .

And is this , indeede , Eubulus ? verilie , I am glad I haue the occasion to see him ; for hee hath the report of a discreet Gentle-man , and that hee hath some good Gift in teaching ; and I haue much longed to heare him .

Eriphilus .

What! Philomathes , doe you account it a lawfull thing to heare anie of these Heretickes ? This Eubulus , I tell you , is an Oratour , and can perswade foolish people , to wiene much of him . And I will not denie , but he hath some piece of prudent and faire Carriage : but Catholickes ought so much the more to shunne his fellowship , lest they bee deceived with Showes .

Philomathes .

Verelie , ( Eriphilus ) I can not altogether allow of your judgement in this : for al-be-it I mislike their Church , yet I haue heard some of their Preachers speake , both powerfullie , and holilie ; so as I can not denie , but I haue beene some-times both instructed , and edified by them . And , if wee will lay aside Passion and Praejudice , wee must acknowledge , that there bee some of them , who are both excellentlie learned , and exemplarlie holie men . And thus much haue I gained by hearing of them , that certainlie , I perceiue our Writers to lay against them , manie vnjust imputations , so to make their doctrine odious : as if they did maintaine things , where-of I haue often heard them teach the contrarie . And , for mee , I never can approoue , that a good Cause be defended with Calumnies .

Eriphilus .

To speake plainlie to you , ( Philomathes ) I thinke you are little from halting betwixt two : and I can not account him a true Catholicke , who will either heare , or in anie thing approoue such Heretickes ; or will so much as once call in question , what-so-ever the Church enjoyneth .

Philomathes .

I will beare with you , to judge of mee as you please : but I both am a true Catholicke , and doe reverence the Church ; yet without light , indifferentlie , to embrace all things , I thinke it not onelie brutish , but also vnlawfull for Christians , who haue to try what they holde . And verilie , ( saving the judgement of holie Church ) that opinion of implicite Faith , hath both much disgraced the Catholicke Cause , and hath made our Doctrine to bee suspected of mani●… . But it is high time for vs , to salute these Gentle-men .

CHAPTER II. Philomathes .

GOD saue you , Masters .

Philadelphus .

GOD saue you , Philomathes , and you Eriphilus . Doe your Effaires lye this way ?

Eriphilus .

This same is our way : and though it were not , yet wee had reason to offer you the duetie of Convoy ; so , as if it bee not displeasant vnto you , wee will , for a space , keepe you companie .

Philadelphus .

Your companie is to vs verie acceptable .

Eriphilus .

But , I pray you , good Sir , was it not the Minister , Theriomachus , who , a little hence , did part from you ?

Philadelphus .

You haue judged rightlie .

Eriphilus .

And how falleth it , for all his Clergie , that , now in almost halfe a yeare , hee cannot finde an Answere to one Sheete of Paper ? which yet hee received , with no small presumption , that , how-so-ever Pitch was defiling , yet hee re●…mbled an hote Tongs , which could contract no Contagion there-by .

Philadelphus .

By what Logicke will you inferre , ( Eriphilus ) because hee hath made no Answere there-to , that , therefore , hee could finde none to giue it ? Know you not , that by the holie Ghost His owne Testimonie , it is some-times foolishnesse to make answere ? And yet how are you bolde to affirme , hee hath not answered it ? Haue you heard all the Conference hee ever had , with the partie-presenter of that Sheete of Paper , since the time hee received it ? Hee hath written nothing there-to ( you will say . ) But from the defect of a written Answere , to conclude of no answere at all , it is an halting argumentation . And ha●… honest men , thinke you , who are busied in their publicke Callings , nothing else a-doe , but to waste time and travell , in intertaining Plea with Contentions , and ydle humours , vpon everie pievish Pamphlet , put out by them , of thinges a thousand times refuted ?

To answere ought , is but a labour bootlesse . When curious Questions are in pryde proposed . On Soules fore-stall'd , all travell tane is fruitlesse : For Light is but to lowlie myndes exposed . Manie protest , them vprightlie disposed , Singlie to search , and receiue Institution : Who , yet , keepe that with-in their Breastes inclosed , Which barreth out all better Resolution . Who with him-selfe concludes , sine counsell craveth , According to his Idoles hee receiveth . Philomathes .

You haue set downe , in your Sonnet , a most certaine trueth . For my selfe , I protest , I ever abhorred all contention , and bitternesse in disputing . And , who for anie other ende maintaine Argument , but in an vpright and calme care , to finde out Trueth , they are both displeasant to others , and vnprofitable to themselues . But seeing that Eriphilus hath casten in this matter , and wee haue so convenient occasion of Eubulus companie , and the time shall bee , so well spent ; I would intreat Eubulus , that , if hee hath ought to answere to these Questions , hee will vouchsafe to speake it : and this , I protest , I require , in vprightnesse ; because I doe thinke , there bee diverse of them , to which , hardlie , shall hee finde anie good answere .

Eubulus .

I never refused to conferre calmlie with anie , but I. I hate contention : and if you ( Philomathes ) jumpe with mee in this humour , I will obey your request the more gladlie ; and , I hope , our Conference shall not bee altogether fruitlesse . Haue you , then , these Questions by you ? and , if not , I can , perhaps , supplie your want .

Philomathes .

I haue them heere , and will reade them to yo●… in order : yet I am glad , that you haue alreadie seene them , for you may answere the more resolutelie to each . This , then , is the Inscription :

A proper new Ballad , where-in is contained Catholicke Questions , to the Protestant .

Eriphilus .

I perceiue that you are alreadie acquainted with it . How say you then , ( Philadelphus ) is it not , indeede , a proper Ballad ?

Philadelhpus .

How proper his Ballad is , let poëts judge . Out of my little skill , I may boldlie affirme , that , for anie , either grace it bringeth to his Arte , or credite to his Cause , hee might right well haue contented him-selfe to speake in Prose : but his forme is good aneugh for his matter ; and hee is , I warrand you , no worse Poët than hee prooveth , evidentlie , a weake Divine .

Reason and Ryme , if sweetlie they bee sembled , Implant in Men the pleasanter Impression : Quicke Arguments , with Eloquence enaembled , Draw contrare Myndes , more quicklie to Confession . But , of true Fayth , if vnder false Profession , Songs bee made Syropes , but to sweeten Errours , Prudence will spye , and keepe of Trueth possession , Vnsnar'd with Syrens , or yet tost with Terrours . But that 's soone seene , which wants both Sause & Season : Your raving Man hath neither Ryme nor Reason . Eriphilus .

It is by evincing Syllogismes , I trow , and not by invectiue Sonnets , ( Philadelphus ) that you must answere to these Questions .

Eubulus .

By a Sonnet one may verie convenientlie giue II. sentence of a Song : and Philadelpbus will but let you see , ( Eriphilus ) that wee are not so farre borne in despite of all the Muses , but that wee could render you as compact Verses , as anie your proper Ballad hath in it . Yet , let it bee as you desire : wee will leaue Sonnets a little , and come to Syllogismes . Philomathes , reade on .

Philomathes .

Gladlie . Thus then hee beginneth .

I pray thee , Protestant , beare with mee , To aske thee Questions , two or three : And if an answere thou canst make , More of thy counsell I will take . Manie and sundrie Sects appeare , Now in the Worlde , farre and neare : The Protestant , the Puritane , The Calvinist , the Zwingliane , The Brownists , and the Fam'lie of Loue , And manie moe , which I can prooue : And the Romane Fayth , truelie , Which you doe call Papistrie . All these , in verie deede , Rehearse all Articles in the Creede : And ev'rie one of them sayth , That their's is the Catholicke Fayth . How should I , amongst all these , Know the Trueth , from feigned Lies ? For ev'rie one confesse IESU ; Saying , that their Faith is true . But this is it that I doe seeke , To know the Church Catholicke ; The Communion , or the companie , Of bolie Men , in vnitie . Eubulus .

This hath beene the Question , which in all III. times perverse and ignorant men , haue pretended for them , as is cleare by these wordes of Chrysostome , Homil. 33. in Act. Tom. 3. The Heathen man sayeth ▪ I would bee a Christian , but I know not to whom I should cleane : Manie Debates are amongst you ▪ I know not what Doctrine to choose ; seeing on both sides they pretende Scripture . Answere him , This maketh much for vs : For if wee did say , that our Fayth were grounded vpon naturall reasons , thou hadst reason to bee troubled : but when wee betake vs to the Scriptures , which are playne and true , thou mayest easilie discerne . If anie man agree with Them , hee is a Christian : and who so oppugneth Them , hee is farre from this Rule .

This same Chrysostome , in 2. ad Thessal . 2. All things are cleare and playne in divine Scriptures : what-so-ever thinges are necessarie , are manifest in them .

Agayne , the same Chrysostome , in Ioann . cap. 10. Homil. 58. The Scriptures leade vs to GOD , and open to vs the knowledge of Him : they both make , and keepe the Sheepe : neyther suffer they Wol●…es to breake in : For , as a most strong Doore , they debarre Heretickes , and place the Godlie in suretie . Neyther ( so beeing wee bee willing ) shall they ever suffer vs to fall away in Errour .

Now , al-be-it I well might , for all answere , oppose to your Poet , these Passages ; yet , lest you complayne , ( Philomathes ) that I passe him too slenderlie , I take vp the summe of your Man his mayne Question , to bee this : Amongst so manie diverse Sects , all rehearsing the common Creed , and each acclayming the Title of the Church , howe , and by what Marks , we may discerne the true Church of CHRIST , from such as falselie doe vsurpe that Title ?

Philomathes .

You haue exceeding well taken vp the state of the Question . And , I pray you , is it not a necessarie Question , and worthie of a carefull consideration ?

Eubulus .

Yea , verilie : but in proponing where-of , and IV. in answering there-to , your Questione●… bewrayeth , either want of Care , or want of Skill , or ( which is worse ) want of Conscience . For , if hee could prooue moe Sectes than hee proponeth , ( as both hee professeth , and I confesse hee might ) why would hee not rather produce them , than , for malicious vp-making of a number , where no number is , make them diverse , who are but one ? For everie difference of Opinion , maketh not a diverse Sect : much lesse doe diverse names of men , who disagree in no materiall point .

Philadelphus .

You miss-take the matter , ( Eubulus ) it is not maliciouslie done of him , but for Metres sake , to make vp his Verses , which , other-wayes , would not haue runne well .

Eubulus .

Well : this is his least , al-be-it even a lourd-Errour . V. But next , ( Philomathes ) for resolution of his Question , if hee had not willinglie set him-selfe to wander out of a right and plaine way , so to draw others after him , in the darke Mist of drumblie Disputations , hee might haue taken the onlie sure , and infallible Marke , from CHRIST His owne Mouth : Who , as hee is the onelie LORD of the House , great Shepheard of the Sheepe , and Bridegroome of the Bryde ; so can Hee , best of anie , leade vs to know them rightlie .

Philomathes .

That must bee of all other the most certaine Note : and I long to heare it .

Eubulus .

CHRIST giveth His Sheepe this Marke , That VI. they know the voyce of the great Shepheard , and follow it ; and Iohn 1●… . that they will not follow the voyce of a Stranger , for they know it not . Where-by that is vndoubtedlie the true Church , where the voyce of CHRIST , and His voyce onelie , is purelie preached , and religiouslie received . If anie man loue Iohn 14. 2●… . Mee , bee will keepe My Word ; and My Father will loue him ; and Wee will come to him , and will dwell with him . Hee that loveth Mee not , keepeth not My Wordes , &c.

Philomathes .

This is most true : but the Question remaineth still , as doubtfull as before : for , what-so-ever Companie doeth acclaime to it selfe , the Title of the Church , they no lesse boldlie affirme , that they doe heare the voyce of CHRIST ; so , as you haue , but cast vs in a new dispute , what i●… CHRIST His voyce , which his true Sheepe doe heare ; and by hearing where-of , they may bee discerned to bee of His Sheepe-folde .

Eubulus .

Neyther CHRIST , nor His Apostles , nor the VII : succeeding Orthodox Fathers , haue left place , to make question heere-of , to anie , who wilfullie winketh not : for Hee Iohn . 5. ●…9 . & ●…7 . 〈◊〉 . hath left vs His holie Scriptures , and commandeth to search them , for a Witnesse of Him . Now , the way to know Him , and , to know His true Church , ( which is his fulnesse ) must of necessitie bee one . More-over , that which maketh the man of GOD wise , absolute , and perfect to everie good 2. Tim. 3. 17. worke , must make him wise , to discerne the true Church also . But the Scriptures make the man of GOD wise , absolute , and perfect to everie good worke ; therefore , they make him wise , to discerne the true Church also . So then , the Scriptures are CHRIST His voyce , and they onlie are now to bee helde for His voyce : for , In vaine doe men worship , ( sayeth the LORD ) teaching for Doctrines , the Traditions of men . Matth. 15. 9. And , when-so-ever anie Church falleth to heare anie other Voyce , or follow anie other Speaker , then Shee looketh aside , Cant. 1. 6. to the Flockes of his Companions , and of a faithfull Citie , beginneth to become an Harlor . And , as Ierome pertinentlie speaketh , Egredietur è finibus suis ; Shee transgresseth her owne Limits . In Mich. Your men , Philomathes , darken all disputation , by deceit of Aequivocations , and confounding of distinct Considerations , and Cases . It is a much different thing , to discerne the Church of CHRIST , in common , from Infidels & Forraigners . And , againe , in that communitie of the Church , to discerne betwixt the true worshippers , and the false ; betwixt the true Church , and the Synagogue of Satan , calling themselues Iewes , and yet are not . And , who , for concluding of this , would bring the common notes of that , hee were a doting Divine , and a no lesse ridiculous Logician , than hee , who for discerning a man from a beast , would bring the common properties of a living creature : for , how-so-ever the common notes of Christians , good , or bad , of Orthodox , or Heretickes , of CHRIST , or Antichrist , will distinguish the common bodie ( in which all these are ) from Forraigners : yet , to discerne betwixt the true bodie , and the inherent evill ; betwixt lawfull , and adulterous worship ; betwixt the Bryde , and the pretending Whoore ; ( both of them in , though not both of the bodie ) there is none other sure note , or marke of discretion , but the Scriptures onlie . When you shall see ( sayeth Chrysostome ) vngodlie Heresie , In Matth. H●…mil . 49. which i●… the Armie of Antichrist , standing in the holie places of the Church , then let them who are in Iudea , flee to the Mountainest that is , they who are of Christianitie , dresse them-selues to the Scriptures : because , from that Heresie hath once obtayned place in the Churches , there can bee no tryall of true Christianitie ; neyther anie other refuge for Christians , willing to know the veritie of the Fayth , but the divine Scriptures . And in that same place : Before , manie wayes were shewed , which was the Church of CHRIST ; but now , no manner of way , hut by the Scriptures . For , ( sayeth the same In Matth. H●…mil . ●…49 . Chrysostome , or who-so-ever was the Author of that imperfect worke vpon Matthew ) if men looke to ought else , they shall stumble , and perish , not vnderstanding which is the true Church : and shall fall , there-by , in the abhomination of desolation , which standeth in the holie places of the Church . Wee thinke it not equitable , ( sayth Ep. 80. ad E●… sta. Medic. Basilius ) that such custome of speach , as hath taken place with them , should bee helde for a Law , and Canon of right Doctrine : for , if custome were of force anough to prooue right Doctrine , wee might also imitate them heere-in . Let vs stand , therefore , to the decision of Scripture , inspyred from GOD , and with whome are found heades of Doctrine , consonant to the divine Oracles ; let Veritie bee al-to-gether adjudged vnto them . Non oportet ( sayeth Ireneus ) quaerere apud Lib. 3. cap. 4. alios veritatem , cum Apostoli quasi in dives promptuarium plenissime contulerint omnia quae sunt veritatis : that is , Wee must not seeke Trueth else-where , seeing the Apostles haue most plentifullie , as in a rich Store-house , put together all thinges that belong to Trueth . Non haec autilla . ( sayeth Augustine ) alteri parti suspecta objiciantur , Ad Maximin . lib. 3. cap. 13. sed communia arma sumantur Scripturae : that is , Let not such things bee objected , as are suspected of eyther partie ; but let the common Armour , the Scriptures bee taken . I might bring manie moe such Testimonies of the Fathers , where-by your man his vnnecessarie nycenesse , ( Philomathes ) in making so great a Question , how Trueth , and the true Church , may bee discerned , from Lies , and hereticall companies , bewrayeth evidentlie , what vpright affection hee hath , eyther to fynde the true way him-selfe , or to leade others there-in .

Philomathes .

When all that you haue sayde is granted , ( so as not onlie those be the true Sheepe , which heare CHRIST His voyce , but that His voyce also bee determined to bee the holie Scriptures ) yet the Question remaineth vnsolved . For as all Sects acclaime the Title of the Church , and professe the hearing of CHRIST His voyce ; so doe they all alleadge Scripture for them . And this was , not obscurelie , implyed in the Question , in that all rehearse the common Creede : so as nothing appeareth to bee yet brought of you , which will rid the Debate .

Eubulus .

To this I answere : First , al-be-it all pretende VIII . Scripture , yet all pretende not Scripture onlie , ( which , both by Scripture , and by cleare Testimonie of Orthodox Antiquitie , I haue prooved , in the Case heere questioned , to bee the onelie Rule : ) for your Church of Rome joyneth , and equalleth with Scripture , her owne Canons , and Traditions ; and there-by declareth evidentlie , all her worship to bee vaine . Hoc nimis doleo ( sayeth Augustine ) quia multa quae in divinis libris saluberrime scripta sunt , minus curantur & tam multis Ep. 119. ad lanuar . praesumptionibus plena sunt omnia , ut gravius corripiatur qui humanas illas traditiones negligit , quam qui mentem vinolentia sepeliverit : that is , I much lament , for that manie thinges , which in the holie Scriptures are most healthsomlie written , are little regarded ; and all things are so full of manifolde presumptions , as he is more grievouslie punished , who neglecteth those humane Traditions , than who hath buried his mynde in Drunkennesse . If that holie Father did finde such matter of lamentation , for those small beginnings , ( in comparison ) which the mysterie of your Antichristian Iniquitie , at that time not so farre as yet advanced , had come to ; what had beene the measure of his griefe , if hee had seene it in the toppe of Presumptuous Impietie ?

Eriphilus .

What , Eubulus , will you make vs , therefore , to heare another voyce than CHRIST'S , because wee heare the voyce of the Church ? Is not the voyce of the Church , CHRIST'S owne voyce ? sayeth Hee not in Scripture . Hee who heareth you ; heareth Mee ; and bee who despyseth you , despyseth Mee ?

Eubulus .

Too great heate ( Eriphilus ) maketh you to over-reach IX . your selfe , and so to stumble , both in Logicke , and in Divinitie . Your Errour in Logicke , is , that you take that for an Argument , which is the verie Poynt in Question . All our Dispute , is , what Companie , of so manie Acclaimers , is the true Church of CHRIST . In this Question , proponed to vs by your Poët , wee are come thus farre , That who heare CHRIST'S voyce , and His voyce onlie . Wee haue layde also this ground , That the Scriptures are onelie to bee helde for His voyce . Vpon which ground , I challenged your Church , as adding to her owne . Now here for your defence , that your Decrees must bee counted CHRIST'S voyce ; and that even by Scripture , you assume , that you are the Church ; and , where the Sheepe are to bee tryed , by the voyce which they doe heare , you will , therefore , justifie the voyce , because you , forsooth , doe heare it . And by such Logicke as this , what may you not conclude ? You might , with more credite , tell vs in plaine Tearmes , That you will not haue it put in question , but that you are the Church : than appeare to put that poynt in tryall , and incontinent , to take it for a Principle , which is the verie Poynt controverted . Now , as this is your fault in Logicke , and that exceeding chyldish ; so , in Divinitie , you misse , and more dangerouslie . Because the LORD affirmeth , That who heareth the Church , heareth Him ; and who despyseth them , despyseth Him ; if Pastours , vnder the pretext of this Power , should presume , absolutelie , to impose on Consciences , what they please ; binding Christians , indifferentlie , without proving , to admit all ; it were an impudent , yea , an impious vsurpation : For these speaches of CHRIST haue alwayes this implyed Condition , That Pastours speake nothing , but the wordes of the Great Shepheard : For , the words of the Wyse , Eccles. 12. 11. are lyke Goades , and lyke Nayles , &c. which are given by one Pastour . Were they not , I pray you , the ordinarie Church-men , whom the LORD rebuked , for burdening Consciences , with Traditions , even of Fathers ? And were not those Traditions , where-of Augustine so much lamented the imposition , the Traditions of the Church ? Doeth not the same Father affirme , That Ne Catholicis Episcopis ascentiendum , sicubi De Unitat. Eccl. cont. ●…il . Ep. 166. cap. ●… . falluntur ut contra canonic as Scripturas aliquid sentiant : that is , Wee ought not consent , no , not with Catholicke Bishops , if they holde a●…e opinion contrarie to the canonicke Scriptures . For ( as Cyprian Ad 〈◊〉 , cont. Ep. 〈◊〉 . sayth ) Consuetudo sine veritate , vetustas est erroris : Custome without Trueth , is but Antiquitie of Errour . And the Saying of Ruffinus , on the Creed , is notable : Non dicimus , Credo in Ecclesiam , sed , Credo Ecclesiam : ne eadem vis & authoritas videatur Creatoris , & creaturae ; Domini & Ministrorum ▪ that is , Wee say not , I belieue in the Church , but , I belieue the Church : lest one and the same , might appeare to bee the power and auth●…ritie of the Creator , and the creature , of the LORD , and of His Servantes . Augustine affirmeth , ●…ib . 2. d●… Bapt. cont. Do●…t cap. ●… . Licere quaslibet liter as Episcoporum , & ipsa consilia reprehendere , si qua in ●…e a veritate devient : That it is lawfull to repr●…oue what-so-ever Letters of bishops , yea , and the Councels them-selues , if in anie thing they decly●…e from the ●…rueth . Because hee who heareth the King his Ambassadour , or Herauld , heareth the King ; and who despyseth them , despyseth the King ; haue eyther Ambassadours or Heraulds an●… libe●…tle , heere-vpon , to exceede the boundes of then Commissions and Warrandes ? Or , haue not the parties , who other-wayes , are holden to heare eyther of th●…m ; yet place le●…t them ( without anie diminution of the Soveraigne Majestie , and Royall Authoritie ) both to aske for , and to examine their Warrandes ? Wee haue but one LORD , and one Law-giver : and so only doeth the contempt of our voyce touch Him , if our voyce bee the Eccho of His voyce , and wee speake not out of our owne imaginations . Other-wayes , the manie sad , and serious Warninges , given vs to trye spirits , were vayne .

Then , turning speach to Philomathes . Eriphilus heate for your Church , ( Philomathes ) hath al-most haled mee quyte from our Question . You objected , That all Sects pretende Scripture . I answered , That all pretended not Scripture onlie ; for that your Church joyneth , and aequalleth with Scripture , her owne Devyses . Nowe , to divert heere farder to the Question of the Churches power in this poynt , and whether shee may erre , or not , it were to slyde away from our present poynt : and I haue disputed that matter at length , in my Defence of our Callinges . I giue the Case , then , that your Church , and all others , acclayming the Title , did pretende Scripture onelie : yet , it is one thing to pretende Scripture , and another to haue Scripture truelie for them : It is one thing to rehearse the common Creede , and another thing to holde the poyntes there-of : Yea , and one thing to holde them falselie , and but in show , and another to holde them truelie . One may in worde and profession , holde IESVS to haue come in the flesh ; and yet , in effect , denye it , and so bee an Antichrist . None can call IESVS LORD , but 1. Iohn , 4. 3. by the Spirit of GOD , ( sayeth the Scripture : ) and yet the 1. Cor. 12. 3. same Scripture witnesseth , That not al who call Him LORD , Matth. 7. 21. shall enter into the Kingdome of Heaven . If Heretickes did not pretende Scripture , they could not greatlie deceiue ; no more than the Philistims had declared Samsons Riddle , if Iudg. 14. 18. they had not plowed with his Heyfer . And this , indeede , were to yeelde Satan an easie victorie : if , because ( for more effectuall deceit ) hee maketh to cloathe him-selfe with our Weapons , wee should , therefore , fayntlie forsake them , and for-g●…e that which by our LORD is left vs , for our onelie Armour , Rule of our Wayes , and Sole Ground , and Pillar of our Fayth , ( as sayeth Ireneus ) so to wander , and perish , Lib. 31 cap. 3. in the Wildernesse of Mens Inventions .

Philadelphus .

Verilie , ( Philomathes ) it is exceeding strange , that your Teachers haue so farre perswaded their Disciples ; that reading of Scripture , to Laike persons , ( as they call them ) is not onelie vnprofitable for resolution , but also dangerous for breeding Errours : Thus verifying of themselues , that saying of Ireneus , speaking of Heretickes , Cum Lib. 3. cap. 2. ex Scripturis arguuntur , in accusationem convertuntur ipsarum Scripturarum : that is , When they are argued by Scriptures , they turne then to the accusation of the Scriptures them-selues : Al-be-it , wee see the Bereans are highlie praysed , for searching Scripture , Acts , 17. 11. and examining there-by , what was offered vnto them ; and their example is registrated by the holie Ghost , for a permanent instruction , in such case , to all succeeding Ages . And it is even monstrous to consider , how farre your guydes haue brought their followers , not onlie to neglect , but even to contemne ; yea , and condemne , in Laike men , the reading of holie Scripture . So , as I can not tell , whether with greater horrour , I haue often heard their disdainful speaches , against Scripture : or , with dolour , and compassion , I haue perceived , how some of them , presuming much of Knowledge ; and , other-wayes , prowdlie , peart to prattle , in Controversies of Religion , and to talke at Tables , of some cunned , and dismembred Testimonies of the Fathers ; yet , in the Sacred BIBLE , were as great strangers , as in the Alcoran .

Philomathes .

If anie man , eyther speake vnreverentlie of Scripture , or condemne the reading there-of , by Laike persons , I am not to make good for that ; for my selfe , I both reverence them , and esteeme the reading of them , in Sobernesse , and Humilitie , to all sorts of men , not onlie lawfull , but also profitable , and necessarie . Neyther did that , which I objected to Eubulus , tende to draw men al-to-gether from Scripture : but , seeing that not onlie all Heretickes pretende Scripture , each drawing out there-of , a Sense , for corroboration of their owne Opinions : but that there is also a manifolde , and great diversitie of interpretation amongst all men , ( where-through it is cleare , howe doubtfull and obscure the meaning of Scripture is . ) It would appeare , that al-be-it wee haue not to forsake , or despyse Scripture ; yet , for Resolution , which is the true Sense , that wee must seeke some other Rule . And what can that bee else , but that , leaving all other Interpretations , wee holde that which the Catholicke Church avoucheth .

Eubulus .

Doe you not perceiue , ( Philomathes ) howe , X. agaynst all Logicke Lawes , you reduce our Disputation , to a Circle : and , so , not onelie you take that for a graunted ground , which is the verie poynt in question ; but also fall , sensiblie , in that same imputation , which you would appeare so much to shunne . Wee are disputing , Which is the true Church : and haue evinced , That the onelie sure way to know Her , is by Scripture . So as of necessitie , first Scripture must leade vs to know ( amongst common Acclaymers ) which is Shee , before wee can resolue to follow Her interpretation . I heartilie yeelde , that Her interpretation be taken : but , in such Dispute , Who Shee is , wee must first bee assured , that it is the Bryde which speaketh , and not a masked Harlot , vnder that name . As for your Objection , of Scriptures obscuritie , where-vpon , by accusing Scripture , you would build an excuse , of seeking some other Rule , it both contumeliouslie taxeth GOD , and is also , in it selfe , sophisticall . It is clearlie contumelious agaynst GOD , in that CHRIST , commanding to search Scripture , for a cleare Iohn , 5. ●…9 . 2. Pet. 1. 19. witnessing of Him ; the holie Ghost affirming by Peter , that the word of Scripture , is a sure and shyning word ; by Paul , 2. Tim. 3. 16. that it is able to make the man of GOD wyse , to everie good worke ; and exhorting all men , & praysing in all men , the diligent reading , and meditation there-of , there-by to discerne spirites , and to prooue what is propounded vnto them : that David , al-most all-where , speaking so divinelie Psal. 119. ●… . of the playnnesse , and power there-of , as where-by even a Chylde may learne to addresse his wayes : Yet some of your men ( Philomathes ) are not ashamed , disdaynfullie to call it a Leaden Rule , and a Nose of Waxe : as if the Almightie , and only wyse GOD , had not eyther wysely anough , or lovinglie , provyded for the direction of His House : and that men , forsooth , will , or can , finde out a more cleare and certayne way . But , what-so-ever obscuritie had appeared to bee in Scripture ; or , howe vncertayne so-ever the vayne and running Humours of men , might appeare to make it , by their diversitie of Interpretations ; yet this should ever haue religiouslietyed vs there-to , that our LORD hath left it vs , for a Lanterne to our Feete , and sole and perpetuall Ground of our Fayth : studying , therefore , with all humilitie , cleannesse of heart , and earnest prayer , to attayne the knowledge there-of : and not proudlie , and rebelliouslie , to take such counsell , as did Israell in the Wildernesse : Wee know not what Exod. 32. ●… . is become of this Moses ; make vs , therefore , gods to goe before vs . The advyse of Augustine , is much more both sound and sober , De Doctrin . Christian . Lib. 1. Cap. 37. than is that of your Church-men : That in reading of Scripture , if wee can not take vp the verie genuine sense , and meaning of the place , at least , let vs not expound that place of Scripture , in a sense repugning to the Analogie of Fayth : So shall wee bee lyke to a man , who how-so-ever hee hath aberred from the direct way , yet hee wandreth in the Fields , leading to the Towne where-at hee would bee . I affirmed , ( Philomathes ) that your Objection , of Scriptures obscuritie , was also Sophisticall ; and thus I cleare it : All reason of obscuritie , must bee eyther in the matter it selfe , or in the manner of delyverie , or in the weaknesse of their perception , to whome it is delyvered . Of divine thinges , wee acknowledge , that , how-so-ever , for most reall and constant existence , they bee , of all thinges , the most certayne : yet , that , for their retyred eminencie , to all creatures , of all thinges , the most obscure . But , for the manner of deliverie , as GOD , in holie Scripture , hath revealed them , we affirme , that all the wisdome , and eloquence of all creatures , ( even in a conceived matter ) could never haue found out so playne a manner ; or , so farre , and lovinglie , haue attempered it , to the capacitie of man , ( as in so high mysteries , and a constant remayning Rule of Fayth , was possible . ) And yet , how-so-ever they bee thus delivered , wee acknowledge , that no naturall man , ( and naturall onlie ) is capable of them : For they are spirituallie discerned : But the spirituall man , by the 1. Cor. 2. 14. Spirit of GOD in him , will discerne the things of GOD.

To reason , then , from the naturall obscuritie , or retyred eminencie of the matter , to the manner of deliverie : or , from the weaknesse of man's perception , to conclude of the manner of deliverie : or , from the perception of the naturall man , to conclude of the perception of the spirituall man , it were al-wayes absurd Sophistication . We are bolde to say , with the holie Ghost , That how-so-ever to most part Matth. 13. 11. of men , the Mysteries of the Kingdome bee spoken in parables ; that hearing , they may heare , and not vnderstand ; and seeing , they may see , and not perceiue : Yet , That Who-so-ever Iohn , ●… . 17. doeth the will of the FATHER , they will knowe the Doctrine , whether it bee of GOD , or whether men speake of them-selues : That CHRIST HIS true Sheepe , knowe Iohn , 10. His Voyce , and knowe the voyce of a Stranger : Wee avouch , That the wordes of Wisdome , are all playne to him that will vnderstand ▪ Proverb . ●… . ●… . and straight , to him that will finde Knowledge : That Scorner , seeketh Wisdome , and findeth it not ; but Knowledge is easie Prov. 13. 6. to him , that will vnderstand . So , as if the Trueth bee hid , it is 2. Cor. 4. 4. hid to them , whose eyes the Prince of this World hath picked out : and whom GOD , justlie , eyther for misregard , or pryde of mynde , hath given over to the efficacie of Errour , to groape even at noone day . Neyther maketh your Sophisticall Objection , of diversitie of Interpretation , against this : for , how-so-ever , manie particular places in Scripture , appeare still difficill , and doubtfull to vs , which but know in part , and prophesie in part : yet wee affirme , ( with Augustine ) De doct. Chr●… lib. 2. cap. 6. & ●… . That even in those things which are playnlie set downe in Scripture , are all things to bee found , which contayne Fayth , and Rules of living ; and that nothing , almost , is ripped out of the most obscure parts , which will not bee found in some other place most playnlie spoken .

Philomathes .

To grant you even all that you haue sayde , either of the plainnesse , or plentiful●…esse of holie Scripture ; yet what shall you gaine there-by , against our Questioner ? or , how shall you justifie the imputations , of want of Care . Skill , or Conscience , layde on him by you ? seeing both our Church confesseth , that the Scripture showeth which bee the true Markes of the Church ; and such Notes as are heere brought by our man , hee prooveth them all from Scripture .

Eubulus .

How eyther proper , or pertinent , your Poet's XI . Markes are , which hee bringeth , and how well hee prooveth them from Scripture , or other-wayes , wee shall see , GOD willing , in the particular examination of each ; where-by all his Corne shall bee found but Chaffe ; and that carelessie , skillessie , or fraudfullie , hee hath fled the onelie demonstratiue Marke , to seduce the simple , with Topicall showes . You say , your Church acknowledgeth , that by Scripture , the true Marks of the Church are knowne . But ( Philomathes ) they fall never to say so , but when they are reduced to such straits , as eyther they must say it , or bee snared , For their common Doctrine is well anough knowne , which can so little consist with this , which you haue now granted , as the one , evidentlie , over-throweth the other . For , doe not your men make all the authoritie of Scripture to depende so farre on the Church her suffrage , as that therefore onlie you are sure , such & such to be canonicke Scriptures , because the Church hath so determined ? Thus , monstrouslie , you make one , and the same , to bee both the Mother and the Daughter , and of one .

Philomathes .

But , thus , you taxe Augustine no lesse than vs , Cont. Epist. Fundam●… . who affirmeth , that hee would not belieue Scripture , if the authoritie of the Churh did not mooue him .

Eubulus .

You deceiue , ( Philomathes ) by concluding Theticallie , XII . and absolutelie , vpon that which Augustine Hypotheticallie propoundeth : and , so , you , vnskilfullie , confound diverse Cases . For , first , inducing of an Infidell , to belieue Scripture , the Authoritie of the Church , is a great Motiue ; or rather , ( as Augustine calleth it ) a Commotiue , and Opportanum inquirendi exordium : that is , A commodious entrie , to Lib. de vtilit●… . inquire by . Now , from this speciall Case , and qualitie of Case , to inferre , That the man by this Commotiue , first induced , had still there-after no other , or greater Warrand , for his Beliefe of Scripture , but the Authoritie of the Church , which first induced him : it were no better Logicke , than to conclude of the Samaritanes , That they never had anie better Foundation of their Fayth , than the Report of their Woman from the Well .

The Authoritie of the Church , may , and will often , induce an Infidell , to reverence , and belieue Scripture : but so , as having come thus farre , then , in the communitie of that Church , to discerne lawfull , from vnlawfull worship ; and , orthodox , from hereticall professours , the Scriptures onlie must haue place : as in a case , where-in to alleadge the Churches authoritie , were extreamlie ridiculous , it beeing the verie point in question , what companie is the Church . And I shewed you before , how your men are alwayes deceived , or at least , labour to deceiue others , by confounding the case of the Church considered , absolutelie , and in relation to Forraigners , and Infidels , and reasoning from it , ( so considered ) to the decyding of debate , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in the Church . In the first , the common notes are discretiue , and the common authoritie , a commotiue to induce ; but in the other , there is no manner of way , but the Scriptures , as out of the Fathers I haue cleared . And , now , ( ●…lomathes ) to returne to our poyn●… whence this your ●…hreedbare Objection , from Augustine , hath driven ●…ee . I pray you , if your men are forced to confesse , That the Markes of the Church , are knowne by Scripture ; why flee they from having all , both their Doctrine and Dealing , examined by that same Rule ? What a shamelesse Sophistrie is this , to ●…ject Scripture , in the particular tryall of everie : Article of Fayth ; and yet , for a few wrested , and perv●…ed Sentences , where-by to proue some bastard ▪ and beg●…yling Notes , therefore , impudentlie , to all eadge , That they , for sooth , doe cleare their Church , by Scripture ? As if in all Scripture , the holie Ghost had but given some Notes , of a Companie , where to seeke our Fayth ; and no●… clearlie set downe the Fayth , which wee haue to holde , and where-by to discerne the Companie which wee haue to cleaue vnto .

Your Cardinall Bellarmine , in aunswering to some cleare Places of the Fathers , nearlie pintching him , ( namelie , of Augustine ) is forced to flee to this , which you , also , 〈◊〉 taken De 〈◊〉 ●…el . cap. 1. for your last Refuge : That the Scripture , indeede , teacheth what are the Notes of the Church . And I haue , verilie , reason , to thanke both you , and him for it : If ( as I presume of you ) so hee , also , had eyther willinglie , or ingenuouslie yeelded it . And , though you had forgotten this piece of your Armour , yet I was presentlie to haue put you in mynde there-of ; for the cleare advantage I haue in it , to conclude , aga●…nst your 〈◊〉 all this poynt of our Dispueation . I am sure , that 〈◊〉 ●…o is so 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ●… Scho●…Man , will not ( agaynst Na●…re , ●…nd all Schooles ) affirme of GOD , the most perfect Doctour ▪ Th●… Hee 〈◊〉 , ( Obseuru●… p●…r obscurius ) that which is obscure , by anie thing which is more obscure . For all knowledge proceedeth Ex natura noturibus : that is , of thinges which are , by nature , more notore ▪ than are those things , which they are brought to notifie . Thus , then , I conclude , vpon your owne Position : That which cleareth anie thing , must it selfe be more cleare ▪ But the Scripture cleareth , which are the Notes of the Church . There-fore , as the Notes , where-by the Church is knowne , must bee more cleare , than the Church , which is knowne by them : So , the Scripture , which teacheth those Notes , must bee more cleare than both . The Scripture , which is the Voyce of the LORD of the House , and Great Shepheard of the Sheepe , truelie taught , and reverentlie received , is the onlie , sure , and evident Ensigne of the House , and Flocke . And , who is it that knoweth not this ▪ That the Companie is al-wayes discerned by the Colours , and not the Colours by the Companie ? Now , consider , ( Philomathes ) whether your mens Objections , Of Scriptures obscuritie , doe fall , and in what vprightnesse they are propounded : And , whether your Questioner bee sincerelie set , to finde that which hee seemeth to seeke for : or , rather , fraudfullie , to divert the Simple , from the onelie Light , which leadeth to it ?

And , some of your owne Wryters , convinced by cleare Trueth , are forced to confesse , what the more impudent sort so much oppugne .

Andreas Fricius , thus speaketh :

DEVS Author est Verbi Sui , quod tanti facit , ut Coelum & Terra facilius transitura sint , quam Verba Ipsius pessum itura . Ille est qui tuetur Verbum Suum , qui authoritatem tribuit , qui illud in dignitatem vindicat : qui per Spiritum S. obsignat in cordibus hominum . Testimonium quidem Ecclesia , Spiritu DEI aff●…ata dare potest Verbo & Doctrinae : hanc scilicet quam ●…am inde ab Apostolis quafi per manus ac●…pisset , & non ali●…m esse à DEO prolitam : Authoritatem ver●… Illi ●…ribuere nemo potest praeter DEVM ipsum , qui est Author illius , Illustrator , Defensor , Propug●…ator .

Agayne , the same Author , Lib. 4. de Ecclesia , Cap. 7.

Ecclesiam necesse est accommodari ad Verbum non Verbum ad Ecclesiam ; Verbum Fundamentum est , Ecclesia aedificium in illo collocatum .

Gabriel Biel , Lib. 3. Sentent . Distinct. 26.

Scripturae canonicae , absque omni approbatione Ecclesiae , ex natura ●…ei sunt immutabiles , & immutabiliter verae .

Hosius , in Confess . Cap. 16.

Non aliter nos credimus Evangelio , nisi propter Vocem DEI intus loquentis , et nos docentis .

So as ( Philomathes ) if you will not belieue vs , yet your owne men may tell you , Whether your Poet hath wandered him-selfe , and would draw others , with him , in Darknesse .

Philadelphus .

Hee will haue vs , to seeke after the Church , as Children , at Chacke-blynd-man , groape after their Fellowes . For , first , hee would picke out our Eyes , or syle vs from seeing : and , then , forsooth , set vs a-searching . But they who doe evill , hate the Light : and the Church of Rome , had rather choose , That this Debate were never decided , than that the cleare convincing Marke were brought , where-by they might bee found out , who they are .

Through open Streete , with lighted Lampe in hand , A vayne surveyning Sophist walkt at Noone : Where-of , when one the Motiue did demand , His rugged Reason thus hee rendred soone : 'Mongst Men , more mad than Mamacks , by the Moone , I search ( sayde hee ) if I can finde one wyse . Asse ( th' other sayde ) thyne Head is out of tune : Canst thou discerne one , though thou sawst him thryse ? But ( more ) your man is jumpe set in his matter , As hee who sought his drown'd Wyfe vp the Water . Eriphilus .

Your Sonnets ( Philadelphus ) are verie sarcasticke : but where-by ( if our man's Questions bee not better answered , than by such cutting Checks ) the Scorne , in ende , will turne to bee your owne .

Eubulus .

Doe you well ( Eriphilus ) to bee angrie ? is onlie XIII . your man priviledged to bee a Poët ? and is hee so ( haeres ex asse ) vniversall Heyre to all the Muses , as that wee haue no part , nor portion , in them ? Et nos quoque la●…rum momordimus . But , let vs see which of vs shall fall to packe vp the Scorne : and having alreadie cleared , what is the onelie sure Note of the Church , let vs now more nearlie treade your man's traces , in these his metricke Marks , and try what weight they carrie . First , ( Philomathes ) reade the Inscriptions of his Sections , for vp-taking his whole Drift . Then will wee ( God willing ) examine each of them severallie , and shortlie .

Philomathes .

These are the capitall wordes of all his Sections , 1. Catholicke , 2. Continuance , 3. Visible , 4. Vnitie , 5. Holie , 6. Heretickes .

Eubulus .

His whole Ryme ( as I remember ) ●…unneth on XIV . two maine poynts : the one , to prooue , that the Church of Rome , is the true Church of CHRIST : the other , to shew , that our Churches are hereticall . The first , hee would conclude thus :

To what-so-ever companie , the notes of Catholicke , ( or Vniversalitie ) Continuance , Visibilitie , Vnitie , and Holinesse , doe properlie conveane , that is the onelie true Church of CHRIST .

But , to the Church of Rome , all these doe properlie conveane . Therefore , the Church of Rome , is the onlie true Church of CHRIST .

Eriphilus .

If you can clearlie loose mee that K●…ot , ( Eubulus ) you may , perhaps , induce mee ▪ to take more of your counsell . But , I suspect , you are once snared : for , of the proposition , none can make question : the assumption will beare out it selfe ; and so , I hope , the Conclusion shall stand stedfast .

Eubulus .

And , if I shall cleare the proposition , to bee so XV. vayne , and Sophisticall , as , though the propounder were heere present , to pleade for it , yet I would , GOD willing , breed him such Businesse , to mayntayn it , as should run him quyte out of all his ryming humour . And , if I show his Assumption also to be evidentlie false , what wil you make ( Eriphilus ) of your man's miserable Conclusion ? The vanitie , & sophisticall deceit of his Proposition , I will best discover , as I shall answere to each of these his Markes severallie ; according as hee bringeth them in order , so by an Induction , to strengthen his false Assumption . And yet , even thus I feare , ( Eriphilus ) that you shall recall your liberall Offer , and be never a whit the more subject to my counsell . But Wisedome will bee justified of her owne Children . Philomathes , reade on .

Philomathes .

Then hearken what hee sayeth of the first Marke , Catholicke .

CHAPTER III. CATHOLICKE . INTO your Byble I haue read , The Church must throgh the World be spred : Boni Cath●…ci sunt , qui fidem integram & bor●… mores servant . August to●… . 4. in Qu●…stion . super Ma●…th . Idem Augustin Tom. 1. lib. d●… v●…ra religion . cap. 7. Co●…endar Ecclesia cath●…lica soci●…tatem , qua lumen Christia●… Religionis & Scripturar●… , Regul●…que Veritatis 〈◊〉 . For CHRIST His Apostles sent , With Power , and Commandement , That to all Nations they should goe , To preach , and to baptize also . Who hath done this , to know I wisht ? For that is , sure , the Church of CHRIST . And , for Exemple , let m●…e know : And , if thou canst , I pray thee show , What Compànie did take in hand , The first Conversion of our Land ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 non abol●…tur , seips●… & postcritat●… cogi , Papa●… pr●… Antichristo , & Roma●… pro vera Babylonia agnoscere . Bernardus , super Psal. 91. lib. 4. ad Euge●…m . And of our Countreyes everie-where , Throughout the Worlde , farre and neare ? If this was not the Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Saynct Paul , in his Epistle sayeth , The Romanes had the Catholicke Fayth : Saying , It was renowned , Spoken of , and published , Through-out the Worlde , over all , Catholicke , Universall . If yours were ever so , Then to your Churches will I goe . So sayeth the Prophet Malachie , There shall bee offered , farre and nie , A cleane Oblation , and Sacrifice , From the place the Sunne doeth ryse , To the going downe of the same . And what is that ? I pray thee name . If it bee not the Holie Masse , I 'll bee a Protestant , as I was . In the eighteenth Psalme I finde , The whole Worlde should heare their sound . If these Markes you doe not want , Then , presentlie , I shall recant . Eubulus .

For myne acquytall , in that where-of I gaue to ●… Eriphilus , some more hope , than , I thinke , hee eyther did conceiue , or would bee willing , I should make good : and to show the vaine sophistrie of the Proposition of your man's mayne Argument , so farre as concerneth this his first Marke , of Vniversalitie , till I come lyke-wayes vpon the rest . I say , ( Philomathes ) that Vniversalitie can bee no proper Marke of the Church : yea , that it can not bee anie Marke at all . And , that , therefore , your man's mayne Proposition is , in this poynt , vayne , and sophisticall .

Eriphilus .

Indeede , Sir , b●… this your Assertion , you make mee hope so little , that you shall make your word good , as I am assuredlie perswaded , that you are worthie to be burned , for a most detestable Hereticke : who dare , so peartlie , deny , that which , I thinke , never one of your Sect durst ever openlie gayne-say , to this houre . Will you draw mee , thinke you , to follow your counsell , in ought , who thus denyeth a speciall Article of our Creede ; and is so audacious , as to affirme , that the Church is not Catholicke ?

Eubulus .

I did suspect , ( Eriphilus ) that you would kindle at my Position : and , therefore , ( for a more gentle Recept ) II. I , even of purpose , turned my talke to Philomathes . But , I will calmlie coole your heate , if I can . I deny no Article of the Creede . I both confesse , and belieue , the Catholicke Church . But , ( that I may , yet once , make you more agast ) in that , I doe belieue it , I , even therefore , deny Catholicke , or Vniversalitie , to bee a proper Marke of the Church ; yea , or anie Marke at all : For , Fayth is the evidence of thinges , which are seene : but , the vniversalitie of the Church , is apprehended Heb. ●…1 . 1 ▪ by Fayth : therefore , the vniversalitie of the Church , is not seene . Now , if it bee of things , which are not seene , but are believed , it can not bee a marke , where-by , heere to discerne the true Church . And , because , ( Eriphilus ) you sought for Syllogismes , I thus reason : All Marks are seene , or fall , vnder some Sense ▪ but Vniversalitie is not seene , neyther falleth vnder anie Sense : There-fore , Vniversalitie can bee no Marke . The Proposition of this Argument , as it is moste certayne , so is it confessed by your Cardinall Bellarmine , in his second chapter , De notis Eccles. The Assumption , none will denye , who haue anie Sense : For all Schooles holde this for an vndoubted Principle , That no Vniversall , as it is Vniversall , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or falleth vnder Sense ; because it is properlie the Object of Reason . Much lesse , then , doeth the Object of Fayth , ( which transcendeth both Sense and Reason ) fall vnder Sense ▪ And , so , can never be any discerning Marke , betwixt Acclaymers .

Thus , ( Eriphilus ) except you haue ought , where-by to infrindge mine Argument , your Man his mayne Proposition , in so farre , as concerneth this his Marke of Vniversalitie , is both vayne , and sophisticall . Vayne , because he bringeth that for a discerning Marke , which falleth not vnder Sense ; and , so , can bee no Marke at all . Sophisticall , for that , of that which we confesse , to be a true Attribute of the Church , hee would conclude , a discerning Marke . But all Attributes , are not Markes . Now ( Eriphilus ) refell mine Argument , or graunt mee , I pray you , some respite from burning : for , without merite , you haue al-readie burned too manie , vpon humour .

Philadelphus .

You could not away ( Eriphilus ) with my Sonnets : but , as I thinke , Eubulus Syllogismes are no lesse pricking .

Philomathes .

But , I pray you , Eubulus , how-so-ever your Reasons are subtill , and , I can not denye , but builded vpon confessed Grounds : and , how-so-ever that Catholicke is an Attribute ( as you call it ) of the Church , & is apprehended by Fayth : yet , seeing that the moste approoved Fathers , in their Disputations , agaynst the Heretickes of their tymes , doe presse them sore , with the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church , which they ordinarilie oppose vnto them ; it would appeare , that they had some reason to doe so : and , that even Vniversalitie is , in some respect , a Marke of the true Church . Neyther see I , howe you can disapprooue our Mens Argument , agaynst you , brought from this Note , except you will condemne those Famous , and Auncient Fathers also , as having vaynlie , and sophisticallie , reasoned for the Trueth .

Eubulus .

To cleare you ( Philomathes ) of all doubt heerein , III. and , to free our selues , from anie , eyther conscience of our owne guiltinesse , where-fore we would reject this Reason ; or , of anie vnreverend Opinion , of those Fathers , who , as you truelie affirme , in some Cases , and Respectes , did vse it ; the aequivocation of this word [ Catholicke ] must be opened vp , where-by your Doctours , willinglie , illude , and where-by your simple ones are , vnwittinglie , deceived . For the Catholicke Church , is of the Fathers so called , eyther properlie , and absolutelie , or improperlie , and but in some speciall Respect , and Relation . Absolutelie , and most properlie , the Catholicke Church , is the whole number , of what-so-ever tyme or place , who haue beene , are , or shall bee vnited vnto CHRIST , their Head , and liue in Him , by His Spirit ; whether heere , on Earth , fighting ; or hence , in Heaven , triumphing . Absolutelie , and lesse properlie , the Catholicke Church , is the whole militant companie heere on Earth , of what-so-ever Kinred , Tongue , or Nation , vnder one , and the same common Ensigne , of Christian Profession ; whether Hypocrites , or true Professours ; whether pure , or corrupt , Worshippers ; whether Orthodox , or Hereticall ; as even Bellarmine argueth , Cap. 7. De Notis Eccles. In anie of which Cases , shee is believed , and ( in her Vniversalitie ) falleth not vnder Sense . Improperlie , agayne , and in opposite Relation , the Church is called CATHOLICKE , for two Respects : The one , In opposite Relation to the Church of the Iewes , which was limited within the compasse of one People , and of one Region : the Christian Church , no more so confined , but spread , indifferentlie , over all , is called the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH . Neyther thus , because that eyther al-wayes all Peoples Vniversallie , or moste parte of Men , embrace the Gospell : but , because the Entrie is opened , and offered , indifferentlie , vnto all . The other Respect , was the opposite Relation , to hereticall Companies , separating them-selues , by Errour , from the common Bodie of the Church , & Trueth mayntayned there-in . And in this last Respect , it is , that al-most the Fathers commonlie speak of it ; calling the Communitie of the Visible Church , retayning Trueth , ( in relation to particular hereticall Companies ) the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH . And , in this Sense , opposing , ordinarilie , to arrogant men , the Authoritie , Multitude , Consent , Succession , &c. of the Catholicke Church , as you haue alleadged , Philomathes . But in this manner of the Fathers reasoning , two things are carefullie to bee marked , whereby the Fathers shall bee found both pertinentlie , and prudentlie , to haue vsed this Argument ; & where by , your men now , shall bee seene evidentlie , and impudentlie , to abuse it . The first , is that state and condition of the Church , wherein this Argument hath place , according as it was when the Fathers vsed it . The second , is , what weight , or moment , the Fathers placed in it . The state of the Church , then , was in common , pure , holding Trueth , and by the force thereof , purging , or expelling all in-bred , or accressing evils , or Heresies . So , as then , though by an improper Speach , yet the Communalitie of the Church , keeping Trueth , in relation to a few Declyners , might not impertinentlie bee called the Catholicke Church , and her authoritie , might well haue beene opposed vnto them . But , who , in a plaine contrarie state , and condition of the Church , when Errour obtaineth in common , and Trueth is afflicted , and borne downe ; yet , without consideration of the altered State and Condition , would still vse the same reason , from Multitude , and what-so-ever , or how-so-ever an obtaining State ; hee were a ridiculous Sophister , confounding diverse , and distinct times , and cases . To reason from the state of the Church in Ephesus , ( where-in evill was not tollerated ) to Revel. 2. the state of the Church in Smirna , ( where-in Heretickes waxed prowde , and despysed the abject state of true Professours ) it were sophisticall : but much more sophisticall , to reason from the state in Ephesus , to the state in Pergamus ; when Rev. 12. the true Church dwelt , even where Satan's Throne was ; knowne to GOD , though hid from the worldlie sort . To reason from the Woman cloathed with the Sunne , treading the Moone , and crowned with twelue Starres ; to the same Woman , lurking in the Wildernesse , it concludeth not : for , as , in the first Case , the Fathers had reason , and did wyselie , to convince by all Advantages ; so , whyle the Case is clearlie altered , ( according as by Scripture was fore-tolde ) ●… . Thess. 2. and Antichrist hath obtayned a Throne , even in the Temple ; when the Evill , or Gangrene , in the bodie , and having even over-gone the Bodie , in common , will contende agaynst the healthsome remnant ; then are wee both to leaue improper Speaches , and , wyselie , to distinguish , deceitfullie-confounded Tymes , and Cases : and properlie to pleade , That the Gangrene in the Bodie , and even affecting , and over-going the Bodie , in common , yet is but an Adherent , or accressing Evill , in , but not of , the Bodie : and , That the healthsome remnant , retayning the Lyfe of the Head , and , by vertue there-of , resisting the over-going Gangrene , is the true Catholicke Church .

And , this altered Condition , of Tyme , and of the Church , in tyme , which maketh the Argument , some-tyme , pertinentlie , vsed , to bee nowe ridiculous : besides , that both SCRIPTVRE hath fore-tolde it , the FATHERS did see the working on of it , and , wee haue , aboundantlie often , prooved , and still offer , to prooue it . It is cleare , also , by that other Poynt , which I propounded , to bee observed , in this reasoning of the FATHERS : namelie , What Weyght , or Moment , they placed in that same Argument . Where-in , they even professe , That they vsed it not , as an infallible demonstratiue Marke , but as a Motiue : which , beeing joyned with cleare TRVETH , was worthie to bee regarded : but , which , eyther without TRVETH , or agaynst TRVETH , should carrie no Credite .

This is evident , by Augustine , vsing this same Argument , Contr. Ep ▪ fund . agaynst Faustus Manichaeus , and opposing the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church , Multitude , Antiquitie , Succession , &c. to his bare bragging of the TRVETH . Which TRVETH , not-with-standing , ( sayeth that Father ) if you can show , so clearlie , as it can not bee gayne-sayde , it is to bee praeferred to all these thinges , where-by I am holden within the Catholicke Church . If the name of the Catholicke Church , were , in this place , properlie to bee taken ; then should Augustine's supposed Case , be ridiculous . For Trueth can never be found any-where els , but within the Catholicke Church , taken properlie . Where-by it is cleare , that the Catholicke Church , in this , and such other places , is taken for the Communalitie of the visible Church : which , having Trueth , should bee regarded . But to whose Authoritie , not the lesse , the cleare Trueth , found with never so few Holders , is to bee preferred . For , Wee ought not to consent , no , not to Catholicke Bishops , ( sayeth the same Father ) if they holde anie De Vnitat . Eccl. contr. Pa●…l . Opinion contrarie to Canonicke Scriptures . Where-by is manifest , both in what Sense the Fathers reasoned , from the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church , and what force they placed in that Argument : and that , how-so-ever by them , and in that tyme , and case of a Church , it was not inconvenientlie vsed ; yet that now , in so farre different a state , still to vsurpe it in a lyke manner , were extreame impudencie . This Chrysostome did both fore-see , and gaue warning of it : that the altered In Math. homil. 49. state of the Church , behooved to bring men to a more neare and proper Rule of Examination , ( as in his Testimonies , aboue cited , is cleare . ) In that , how-so-ever , before that Heresie obtayned place in the Church , and the abhomination of desolation stood also ( in sanctis Ecclesiae locis ) in the holie places of the Church , manie wayes were to discerne the Church : ( as , while Trueth helde place in common , was Vniversalitie improperlie taken , Multitude , Consent , Succession , &c ) yet now , after that hereticall contagion hath infected the Bodie in common , no manner of way is to discerne the true Church , ( amidst the corrupted communitie of the Church ) but onlie the Scriptures . You are greatlie deceived , ( Philomathes ) if you esteeme the Church , therefore , to bee called CATHOLICKE ; eyther because al-wayes the moste parte of men shall come in to her , and embrace the Profession : or yet , That of such as come in to her , the moste parte shall al-wayes holde the Trueth . But , Shee is CATHOLICKE , because her Gates that are nowe casten open , to all Kinreds , Tongues , and Nations ; that the righteous Nation may enter in . And , how-so-ever , that neyther most part come in , neyther of such as are in her , is the most part of her , or saved : yet all , vniversallie , who are saved , must both bee in her , and of her . And , how-so-ever , in her , most part keepe not Trueth , yet no Trueth is , but in her . If ( as your Men are al-readie perceiving , and , there-vpon , are gnawing their Tongues , for sorrowe ) the Trueth preached by vs , take ▪ in short tyme , such successe , as the Waters of your Euphrates shall be dryed vp : and if Multitude , and Consent of Nations , shall bee with Revel. 16. 12. vs ; will you , there-fore , yeelde vs the Title of the Catholicke Church ? If multitude of Holders , bee al-wayes a sure Marke of the true Church , how sayeth the Scripture , That All shall follow the Beast ? And you confesse , That Antichrist , when hee commeth , shall obtayne Vniversallie . Now , if in Antichrist his vsurpation , Vniversalitie shall bee no Note of the Church , how see you not , That verie vnjustlie you lay it al-wayes agaynst vs ? and , That what-so-ever Vniversalitie you can alleadge for your Pope , it exeemeth him not from beeing that Antichrist , except hee cleare him-selfe , by better Defences ? Thus , I hope , I haue cleared , That wee neyther disprooue the Fathers , reasoning agaynst Heretickes , in opposing to them , the Authoritie of the Catholicke Church : and yet , that you haue not , there-fore , anie , eyther Right in their Argument , or Ground there-vpon , to make CATHOLICKE a discerning Marke of the Church . So , as your man's mayne Proposition , ( so farre as concerneth this Note of Vniversalitie ) is still sophisticall , and vayne . But , nowe , if it were even a discerning Marke , as your Men would make it , yet let vs trye , howe justlie your Church doeth vindicate it , to her selfe : and let vs examine your Man's mayne Assumption in that part .

Philadelphus .

As you haue dressed his Proposition , in that part , I thinke all labour agaynst his Assumption were ydle : IV. For , if CATHOLICKE can bee no discerning Marke of the Church , no , not anie Marke at all , ( as you haue , at length , and evidentlie , evinced ) how can it bee Romes Marke ?

Eubulus .

Yet ( Philadelphus ) I will omit no-thing , where-by I may possiblie induce Eriphilus , to take more of my counsell . But , in refelling this your Man's Assumption of his mayne Argument , where-by hee appropriateth to Rome , the Title of the Catholicke Church , I must protest , ( Eriphilus ) that it bee no praejudice to my matter , that you doe so confidentlie call your selues Catholickes , and your Companie , the Catholicke Church : else , if you will haue this your vsurping of that name , to carrie anie weight ; and , that , therefore , you will haue vs to account so of you ; I desire of you the same aequitablenesse , in our Case . That , because wee both esteeme , and call our selues , The Catholicke Church , and Catholicke Men ; that , therefore , you will holde vs for such . Or , if you consider , that an Argument , à dici ad esse , concludeth not ; and that , there-fore , pertinentlie , the Logicians place , before their Categories , the Distinction ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) of thinges that are sayde , and of thinges that are . Then , let vs lay aside , what eyther you , of your selues , or wee , of our selues , doe partiallie speake , or arrogantlie arrogate ; and let vs trye , what is true of vs both .

Philomathes .

Your Protestation is most aequitable : For , a bare Clayme , except it bee instructed , can make no Title .

Eubulus .

Then , ( Philomathes ) in that part of your Poet's V. Ryme , which is inscrybed , CATHOLICKE , and which you did lastlie reade ; besides the Proposition , which I haue refelled , hee assumeth , That the Note of Catholicke , or Vniversalitie , conveaneth properlie , to the Church of Rome . Which false Assumption , hee seeketh to sustayne , by foure Reasons ; the first of which , hee concludeth thus :

What Companie did take in hand , and , accordinglie , first performed , the publishing of the Gospell , thorow the Worlde , and converted all Nations , to the Fayth ; that must bee the Companie , to which the Title of CATHOLICKE , or VNIVERSALITIE , properlie , belongeth : and that Companie , is the Catholicke Church .

But , the Church of Rome , onlie , did both vnder-take , and performe this . There-fore , the Church of Rome is the Catholicke Church ; and , to her , properlie , that Note belongeth .

Now , heere , some Poëticall inspiration hath transported your man , to giue vs such , whether a definition , or description , of Catholicke , as till now , none ever heard of . Wee esteemed , ( as I haue shewed ) that the Catholicke Church had beene that companie of what-so-ever Tyme , Place , or Nation , which , in the communion of one , and the same Spirit , joyned to their Head CHRIST , doe make vp the fulnesse of His mysticall Bodie ; whether in the Heavens , triumphing , or , as yet , heere , in their course , fighting ; or , in another consideration , wee call the Catholicke Church , all of all Kinreds , Tongues , and Nations , who vnder one , and the same common Ensigne , of Christian Profession , giue their names to CHRIST , and are in the count of His House heere ; whether they bee onlie in it , or also of it : or , to speake improperlie , as , in some Cases , the Fathers doe , the Catholicke Church is the communitie of the Church , holding Trueth in relation , to Declyners there-from . But your Poet , appropriating this Title , to the first Converters , hath forfaulted from this Dignitie , all the Converted by them : And , thus , his Proposition , is not onlie false , but even ridiculous . For , how-so-ever the Converters of others , by an improper Speach , may be called Catholicks ; as anie particular Church , holding Trueth , is called a Catholicke Church ; or anie faithfull Man , a Catholicke man , because they are true partes of the Catholicke Church , in which onlie is Trueth , Lyfe , and Salvation : yet , to call anie particular , eyther person , order of persons , or companie , the Catholicke man , persons , or Church , it is an insolentlie arrogant Speach . His Assumption I distinguish . If hee affirme , That Rome first converted all Nations to the Fayth , and was the first publisher of the Gospell , it is so shameleslie false , as , I thinke , Satan might blush , to broach out such a Lie . How did Paul glorie in the Rom. 15. 1●… . LORD , ( and that before hee did see Rome ) that from Arabia , to Illyricum , he had filled all with the Gospell of CHRIST ; and that , most part , where CHRIST had not beene named , not building on anie other man's foundation ? Haue all the other eleven Apostles , besides Peter , forgotten , thinke you , their LORD's Commission ; of whom , wee haue no certayne record , that ever anie did see Rome ? If , converting Nations to the Fayth , might appropriate to anie Church ,

downe of the same .

But , no Companie offereth to GOD , a cleane Sacrifice , from the rysing of the Sunne , to the setting of the same , but the Church of Rome .

There-fore , the Church of Rome , is onlie , and properlie , the Catholicke Church .

The Proposition , of this his Syllogisme , hee taketh from the Prophet Malachie . His Assumption , hee prooveth , stronglie , for-sooth , by an vndenyable Trueth ; That , Onelie , the Church of Rome , offereth all-where , the holie Sacrifice of the Messe . Which , hee maketh no question , but that is the onlie cleane Sacrifice , offered to GOD , all-where , from the rysing , to the setting , of the Sunne . And , thus , hee thinketh , his Conclusion can not fayle him .

Eriphilus .

And so I thinke , also , ( Eubulus ) and , I hope , shall thinke so still , for anie Aunswere you are able to make there-vnto : how-so-ever you would seeme , for-sooth , to make a verie light account of it ; and would , according to your manner , laugh-over those Argumentes , which most pintch you .

Eubulus .

Then , advert what I haue to say , and thinke , XII . syne , what you please . The Condition of CHRIST His Church , set downe by Malachie , ( whence the Poet bringeth his Proposition ) I acknowledge , according to the Prophet his sense , and wordes ; which your man ( Eriphilus ) resumeth deceitfullie . The wordes are these ; From the ●…sing of the Sunne , to the going downe there-of , My Name Malach. 1. 11. shall bee great amongst the Gentiles , and , in all places , Incense shall bee brought to My Name , and a cleane Gift . These cleare , and distinct wordes , eyther ignorantlie , or fraudfullie , your man obscureth , perverteth , and involveth , to darken the difference betwixt expiatorie Sacrifices , or , Sacrifices for sinne , and other Oblations , of Prayse , or due Worship : which , both , in their diverse Types , are most distinctlie put ; and , in the Anagogicke Veritie , must bee diverselie considered . And , this , your man doeth , to bring some Colour to his Assumption , which is impudentlie false . Neyther will the Offering of your Messe , ( which is neyther cleane , holie , nor a Sacrifice , but a most sacrilegious prophanation , of an holie Sacrament , and the moste detestable Idolatrie , that ever was defended for good Worship ) appropriate to Rome , the Offring , all-where , of Incense , and a cleane Gift , to the LORD . Rev. 1. 6.

Are you so shallow a Man , in Scripture , ( Eriphilus ) that you know not , how all true Christians , anie-where , beeing made Kinges , and Priestes , to GOD , in CHRIST , doe offer Hosca . 14. 3. Rom. 1●… . 1. vp to Him , the Sacrifices of Prayse ; even the Calues of the Lippes ? Doe wee not offer vp our selues , an holie , living , acceptable Sacrifice ; even our reasonable Service ? What-so-ever workes of Charitie wee , in the feare and loue of GOD , performe ; are they not Sacrifices ? and , accepted in CHRIST ? To doe good , and to distribute , forget Heb. 13. 16. not ; for with such Sacrifices , GOD is well pleased , sayeth the Apostle . Is not the Liberalitie of the Philippians , Philip. 4. 18. by the same Apostle , called , A Sacrifice of sweet Savour , and acceptable to GOD ? Your Man his whole Senses haue beene drowned in his Challice , when , so doltishlie , hee forgot him-selfe , as , to leaue no cleane Offering in the Church , but his monstrous Messe . As for anie other Sacrifice for Heb. 7. 27. sinne , but that one , and once for all , offered , wee acknowledge not : So , as your Messe may be well relegated , to sicke Swyne , for whom ( vpon conveaned pryce ) your Men haue mumbled out a million .

Now , as your Questioner playeth the Cavillatour , both in that hee confoundeth diverse kyndes of Sacrifices , and , also , that hee acknowledgeth not , ( with cleare Scripture ) anie other cleane Oblation , in the Christian Church , but the Mischiefe of the Messe : So , hee illudeth , more-over , by reasoning from Sacrifice , and Oblation , figuratiuelie , and allegoricallie , spoken of ▪ to Sacrifice , and Oblation , in proprietie of signification : from typicall speaches , concluding not allegoricallie , but properlie ; and , that , most ignorantlie ▪ & foolishlie . The Prophets , fore-speaking of CHRIST His Kingdome , doe , ordinarilie , expresse the Condition thereof , vnder Legall Types , where-by it was fore-shadowed . Which is so evident , in all their manner of Dispensation , as it is marvell , if anie dare pretende , to misknow it . Speaking of the Conversion of Nations , a●…d , of their Association to the Church , they prophecie , That all Nations shall come yearlie , and worship at HIERUSALEM . Which , to vnderstand properlie , it were to bee a proper Asse in Divinitie . For , expressing of the great measure , of Light , and Knowledge , vnder the Gospell , they prophecie , That all men shall see Visions , and dreame Dreames : to declare , that ●…el , 2. 28. the Worship of GOD , shall bee no more tyed to anie one place ; but that all-where , who worship Him , in Spirit , and Trueth , shall bee accepted . Isaia telleth of three Altars , to ●… , 19. 19. bee erected ; one in Iudea , one in Assyria , and one in Aegypt . And thus , to show how the worship of GOD , should bee no more confined within the Iewish nation , or precinct of Canaan , Malacbie fore-telleth , That Incense , and a cleane Gift , shall bee offered in all places , and , that the Name of the LORD shall bee great , from the rysing of the Sunne , to the going-downe there-of . And , howe will you , out of this , make your monstrous Messe ? or , out of your Messe , make the miserable Mongers there-of , to bee the Catholicke Church , except , first , you make Mules of Men ? Or , is there anie , eyther Shame , or Sinceritie in disputing , when , vpon typicall Praedictions , Conclusions are inferred , in proprietie of Signification ?

Philadelphus .

You haue ( Eubulus ) made this their Sacrifice so vnsavourie , that I long to bee from it . I pray you , what is his fourth Reason ?

Eubulus .

Because ( Philadelphus ) the smell of the Romish Incense , XIII . I perceiue , is to you some-what loathsome ; for your Refreshment , you shall now haue an Argument , to laugh at ; if this may not mooue Eripbilus , to count it in vincible . Advert , then , a deadlie Demonstration . David sayeth , in the eyghteenth Psalme , And their sound went thorow all the Earth : There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the Catholicke Church . If one were set , in scorne , to play a part , to the Partie's disgrace , whom he representeth ; could he haue fished out , thinke you , a fyner Argument , than this is ? David , in the nynteenth Psalme , ( which some make the eyghteenth ) showeth , how GOD hath , in His works , so playnlie manifested Him-selfe , as no Nation in the world , can pretend any excuse of ignorance . Paul , in his Epistle to the Romanes , for taking from obstinate Iewes , all excuse , of their induration agaynst Rom. 10. 1●… . the Gospell , because the same was so playnlie , largelie , and powerfullie preached ; he , to this ende , citeth , and verie pertinentlie , the wordes of David . But , I pray you , by what Logicke will it follow here-vpon , that the Church of Rome , is the Catholicke Church ; more than the Devill , and his angels , who Iob. 1. 7. and 1. Pet. 5. 8. compasse the Earth , continuallie , roaring , & seeking whom they may devour ? or , then , the busie Emissaries of Satan , who compasse Sea and Land , to make a Proselyte , and make Matth. 23. 1●… ▪ him doublie the chyld of the Devill ? We affirme , That the Gospell , at first , was so playnlie , and plentifullie , offered to the World , as , that , most justlie , for the contempt there-of , and because men loved Lies , better than the Trueth ; therefore GOD gaue men over , to strong delusion , & effectualnes of error : whereby Satan obtained a throne in the Temple , all the Earth folowing the Beast . And , that now again , that man of Sinne , by the revived light of the Gospell , is so clearlie revealed , as , who will not come out of Babylon , are willinglie blynded , and worthilie part-takers of her judgements . And now , ( Philomathes ) as I thinke , I haue aunswered to all your Rymer's foure Reasons , where-by hee would conclude CATHOLICKE , to bee a Marke of the Church , and proper to Rome . If you haue ought to reply , speake it : other-wayes , let vs heare more of your Man his Musicke .

Philadelphus .

No : but , by your leaue ( Eubulus ) my Song was first tabled . And you shall haue it short : For it is in honour of the Church of Rome , which is daylie shortening .

If Catholicke , can not a Marke bee counted , And shamleslie , as if it bee assumed : If vaynlie Rome , vaunts now of Vertues wonted , When shee is but a Carion consumed : If ov'r the Sayncts shee proudlie hath presumed : Her Sacrifices , if they bee but sinne : That Mother-Whoore , if duelie Shee bee doom'd : If all Her Silver , turned bee in Tinne : If Apostaticke , more than Apostolicke : Shee claymes , vnkyndlie , to bee call'd Catholicke . Philomathes .

What-so-ever might bee replyed to you , ( Eubulus ) yet I will not insist farder , at this tyme . But , seeing that Philadelphus is so poeticallie disposed , as hee must vent his Verses ; I will sharpen him , with a new Subject , where-on to meditate his next Sonnet . Thus , then , our Man speaketh , of CONTINVANCE .

CHAPTER IV. CONTINUANCE . THis is another Marke , most sure , ●…ut yet , in it ●…l be●… a tenth , it shall re●…e , and shall eaten , as a ●…-tree , and as Oake , whose stance is in ●… , when they ●… their leaues : ●…he holie seed , ●…ll be the sub●…ce there-of . ●…sai . 6. 13. ●…onsuetudo ●…tre non debet , ●… minus veritas consuet●… 〈◊〉 veritate vetu●… est error●… , 〈◊〉 propter 〈◊〉 errore sequ●… veritatem . Cyprian , ad Pompe●… . Nova et p●…grina censenda sunt qu●… Christ●… non doc●…it ▪ nec omnia qua vetera sunt admit●…s debent . Ibid●… . The Church of CHRIST must still endure ; According as our Saviour sayd , When for Saynct Peter Hee had prayd : Simon , thy Fayth shall never fayle : The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle . The holie Ghost , your Comforter , Shall remayne with you ever-more : And I , My Selfe , your surest Friend , Will bee with you , vnto the ende . Saynct Paul sayeth the same Speach ; There shall bee al-wayes Men to preach : Apostles , Doctors , and the lyke , Into the Church Catholicke . If these bee not the Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Eubulus .

You must not expect of mee , ( Philomathes ) that I will , so ▪ vnprofitablie , spende tyme , as to sift out , narrowlie , I. all your Man 's grosse Over-sightes ; because I eye but the mayne poynt : and , there-fore , you haue not to thinke , that eyther I spye no●… , or doe approoue , what in him I passe over , vntaxed . For , as , heere , hee vaynlie , and ydlie , payneth him-selfe , to prooue a poynt , which no man will denye , ( That the Church continueth al-wayes : ) So , for prooving heere-of , to alleadge , the particular Promise , made to Peter , That his Fayth should not fayle , hee is ridiculous , and sophisticall . For , in that place , the LORD speaketh of Peter's particular Fayth , that Spirituall Vertue , begotten in him , by the holie Ghost , which was his Victorie , where-by hee over-came , in that his temptation : and not the Doctrine of Fayth , as your Man hath , now , twyse , dotingly , expounded . As if the Falling , or Standing , of the Church , did hang on anie one particular Man his Apostasie , or Stabilitie . Hee , no lesse audaciouslie , fathereth a Lie , on the Apostle Paul , ( That , al-wayes , there shall remayne Apostles in the Church : ) For , except hee escape , by aequivocation , it is most certayne , that , in the most proper , and strict Signification of Apostleship , as it was an extraordinarie Function , but for a tyme , till the Foundation of the Church should bee layde , and the Canon closed : So , how-so-ever others , succeeding in Pastorall , and ordinarie Offices of the Church , and teaching the same Doctrine , and so keeping the Foundation layde by them , are , truelie , the Successours of the Apostles : Yet , that anie did succeede to the Apostleship , it is extreamlie false . For , the Church being constituted , extraordinarie Offices ceased ; as did the extraordinarie Gift , and manner of Calling , which maketh the Office . And , I even muze , if your owne Men , will not judge , this your Poet , worthie of punishment , that will haue Apostles continuing , al-wayes , plurallie , in the Church : seeing you all doe account this Dignitie singular to the Pope ; who onlie , now , in all the World , takes to him-selfe , the Monopolie of Apostolicall Benediction .

Philomathes .

It is the mayne poynt , where-in wee would bee resolved . For these other things , I am not to make Argument . Can you , al-wayes , denye , but that CONTINVANCE , is a proper Marke of the Church ?

Eubulus .

It is no more a proper Note of the Church , than II. Colour and Stature , are proper Notes of a Man . And , ( that I forget not my promise , as I come on them , one by one , to shew , the vayne sophistrie of your man's mayne Proposition , in all ) I affirme , That , as Vniversalitie was foolishlie brought by him , for a discerning Marke , betwixt Acclaimers ; so , also , is this , of Continuance : not , that I deny it , to bee an attribute , and common accident : for , certaynlie , since her first beginning , the Church both hath continued , and shall continue al-wayes . But , doe you holde this good Logicke , in your man , ( Philomathes ) of common accidents , to conclude , that they are proper Notes , and discerning Marks ? you know , that Proprium , is but one of diverse kynds of Predication : and , that what-so-ever , is proper to any thing , it conveaneth ( as Schooles speake ) Omni soli , & semper : that is , To all , to onlie , and al-wayes . But , Continuance , could not bee sayde of the Church , Semper : that is , at all tymes . For , at the first moment of Adam and Evaes Creation , ( who were the Church ) Continuance , of them then , had bene no true Predication , when as yet , no tyme had run . Besides , what-so-ever is a proper Note , it is so converted with the subject , where-of it is the propertie ; as that , if Continuance were a proper Note of the Church ; then , as none could be the Church , but which had continued , and did still continue : so , what-so-ever did continue , behooved to bee the Church , which you see , were extreamlie absurd . For , Heaven , and Earth , continue to this day : Satan , continueth a Liar , and a Murtherer , from the beginning ; and his Children continue Liars , and Murtherers , lyke their Father : and , the evill Seed continueth , even amidst the good Seede , in the Lord 's owne Fielde , till the last day of separation . So , as if with anie probable shew , your man would had CONTINVANCE , counted a concluding Marke of the Church , hee should haue added there-to , this Modification , That , what companie hath continued in the true Fayth , and Worship of CHRIST , that is His true Church . But , then , if hee should assume , that the Church of Rome , hath onlie continued in the true Fayth , and lawfull Worship of CHRIST , wee will denye it , as extreamlie false : and , tell him , that hee continueth impudent , to assume the Question . And , thus , you may perceiue , ( Philomathes ) that your man's most lykelie Marks , yet are no proper Markes , till they bee modified , by that one , and onelie demonstratiue , and truelie discretiue Marke , which at first I layde downe vnto you .

Philomathes .

But , ( Eubulus ) you must not escape vs at so cheape a rate . For , even vpon CONTINVANCE , a common accident , as you call it , I will establish our man's conclusion , for the Church of Rome . You will confesse , that the Church of CHRIST , hath continued al-wayes , since her first beginning , and must al-wayes continue , till her LORD'S returne : so , as shee can never fall away , absolutelie , from His Light , and Lyfe . III.

Eubulus .

This , I heartilie yeelde you .

Philomathes .

You will yeelde mee this also , That no companie can be sayd , to continue in the Trueth , Light , and Lyfe of CHRIST , which continueth not , in anie profession of His Name , or worship there-of , at all . For , to vse your owne comparison , al-be-it Colour , and Stature will not conclude , of the thing coloured , and quantified , that it is a man : yet this will bee a sure Position , That what hath neyther Colour , nor Stature at all , it can bee no man . IV.

Eubulus .

This , I yeelde you also : but where-vpon , you may see , that your conclusion , shall bee but negatiue , to exclude vpon defects , & not affirmatiue , to argue vpon demonstratiue Markes .

Philomathes .

Then , advert , how I will , even affirmatiuelie , conclude , for the Church of Rome :

That Companie hath onlie continued , in the true Light , and Lyfe of CHRIST , ( and so is His Church ) which , onelie , of all others , hath retayned HIS Name , or anie Worship there-of .

But , for manie Ages , the Church of Rome hath onlie , of all Companies in the Worlde , retayned the Name of CHRIST , or anie Worship there-of .

There-fore , the Church of Rome , hath onlie continued in the true Light , and Lyfe of CHRIST : and so , onlie , is His true Church .

Eriphilus .

You finde , perhaps , Eubulus , that our Syllogismes , are poynted also .

Eubulus .

I will presentlie prooue , what eyther Poynt , or V. Edge , it hath ; and , how piercing so-ever you presume it to bee , ( Eriphilus ) yet make it to bee found as phlegmaticke , as you are cholericke . Of your Syllogisme then , Philomathes , ( where-by you conclude no thing to Romes advantage , if any other Churches may bee shewed , to haue continued in anie Profession , or Worship of the Name of CHRIST ) I grant the Proposition to bee true : for , no question , but that onlie with-in the compasse of the visible Church , and vnder the common Ensigne of Profession , the true Church , and all true Christians , are , and haue continued , al-wayes . And , as where-ever the Ensigne is , and the Name of CHRIST professed , how corruptedlie so-ever it bee in common , yet , there , possiblie , yea , probablie , ( I durst say assuredlie ) are some true , though weake , Christians : So , where that Name is not at all named , nor anie worship there-of , there no Church can bee sayde to bee at all . Your Assumption is both false , and deceitfull . And , to shew it evidentlie to bee such , if I should but oppose to you , the Aethiopian , and Indian Churches , which haue continued , and not onelie without anie Communion , but al-most without anie knowledge of the Church of Rome ; what could you finde , to say , against these Instances ? but , I will bee so indulgent , vnto you , as not to vrge them on you : I will , other-wayes , sufficientlie , so discover the deceit of your Assumption , as the falsehood of it may bee clearlie seene : for it contayneth a double fallacie ; one in the name of the Church of Rome ; the other , in that which is affirmed of it . For , if by the Church of Rome , bee vnderstood , the whole bodie of the visible Church , on which , for some Ages , by craft and ambitious vsurpation of Antichrist , in-throned in the Temple , the Character , Name , or Number of Revel. 13. the Beast , were imposed in common : how-so-ever thousands , ever were in that communitie , who , rejecting , and detesting them , retained the Name of the Lambe His Father , and Character there-of ; and were of the 144000 sealed Revel. 1●… and ●… ones : and , manie , who , in simplicitie , received the Name , or Number of the Beast , yet never received his Character . Then , sophisticallie , and deceitfullie , you reason from the accressing Sore , and Gangrene in the bodie , ( and of which Sore , the name is but improperlie and tyrannicallie imposed on the bodie ) to the bodie affected there-with . When wee pleade agaynst the Church of Rome , wee pleade not against that bodie absolutelie , where-in that evill was , and that so farre obtaining , as it named the bodie after it selfe , ( while Revel. 2. 13. the Church of GOD dwelt , even where Satan's Throne was ) but wee pleade agaynst the evill , in , but not of , the bodie : not agaynst all , who were called the Romane Church , or Papists , or were counted of that number : But agaynst Papalitie , or Antichristianisme . Not agaynst all , who were , thorow common Contagion , perhaps , lightlie touched , or taynted with the Evill : But agaynst the Characterized companie , Antichrist his mancipated Slaues , and in whom the pestilent Evill , had eaten vp all true lyfe , and sense . So , as in this Case , for arrogating anie poynt , to the Mischiefe which wee oppugne , to oppose vnto vs , the common bodie , even heavilie affected , and , in common , over-gone with it ; it is no lesse absurd sophistication , than if one should confound the Dropsie , Iaundies , or Gangrene in the Bodie , with the Bodie in which they are , and drawe Conclusions from the one , to the other . If all the Bodie , were the Evill , then were there no Bodie . But , even a sicke Bodie , is yet a Bodie : and , how-so-ever so affected , in common , and , no part appeareth to be fullie free , but , that the Sore possesseth all : yet , so long as the Bodie liveth , and mooveth , performing naturall Functions ; it evinceth , that some Noble partes yet resist the Disease ; so as the Bodie , al-be-it heavilie affected , yet dieth not : yea , getting the true Medicine , and Divine Purgation of the Word and Spirit , will expell the Evill , and notiue Humour , and recover Health ; as Experience hath prooved clearlie , in manie Reformed , both Churches and Persons .

Thus , ( Philomathes ) if in your Assumption , you meane , by the Church , that whole Bodie , absolutelie , on which that Name was fraudfullie , and tyrannicallie , imposed : then you conclude not your Poynt , but deceiue , by Aequivocation , ( A dici , ad esse ) from So called , and , wronglie called , to So is ; confounding that knowne Distinction of Logicke , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , where-of I spake before . And if , by the Church of Rome , you signifie the Papalitie , and Evill in the Bodie , which wee impugne , ( as you must , if you evince ought agaynst vs ) then is your Assumption clearlie false . For , both before that Evill invaded the Bodie , the Bodie was : and , even at the tyme of the waxing Sore , yet still continued , brooking some healthsome remnant of Spirituall Sense , and Lyfe : and , now , at last , by the Medicinall Vertue of the Word , and Spirit , is recovering Health , and destroying the , formerlie , destroying Disease .

This will bee yet more cleare , by the discoverie of that other Fallacie , where-by , in this Case , of the Churches continuance , your Men partlie illude , and partlie are illuded . For , because the Church continueth al-wayes , they esteeme , and conclude falselie , That , there-fore , shee continueth still in one , and the same Condition of Light , and Lyfe : that is , That Trueth , and lawfull Worship , hath al-wayes helde place , and borne swey there-in , in common : so as what-so-ever Companie , or Doctrine , most , in common , obtayned , and carried Vogue , that was the true Church of CHRIST , and the true and Orthodox Fayth . And this is most absurdly false , and evinced to be so , not onlie by evident Experience , but also by cleare Scripture . For , all 〈◊〉 Church , & Trueth in her , hath continued alwayes ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 she bene subject to manie Wrestlings , Victories , Kything 〈◊〉 Eclypses : Shee is some-tyme darkened , ( sayth Augustine ) and is , as it were , over-clowded , ad vinc●… . 〈◊〉 . 48. with multitude of Offences : some-tyme , by tranquillitie of tyme , quyet & free she showeth her selfe : some-tyme is covered , and troubled with the waues of tribulations , and tentations . We confesse , that the Church hath continued always : but not as the presuming Whoore boasteth , I sit , being a Queene , & shall see no mourning : but , oft-tymes , Revel. 18. 7. Isai. 54. 1●… . afflicted , & tossed with tempest , & having no comforter . She hath still continued , but , as a Woman , ( even at first , while shee was yet cloathed with the Sunne ) traveling , and crying out , with payne : Revel. 12. next , persecuted cruellie : thirdly , fleeing to the Wildernesse : fourthly , Revel. 13. lurking , and fed there , while the beast of Satan's power maketh the Earth to follow him , by false pretence of the Lambe's Revel. 8. and horns . She hath continued alwayes : yet so , as sometime ( while the Earth , Sea , Fountayns & Rivers , Starres , Sun & Moone , Revel. 14. and are eyther , first , in a great part , burnt , corrupted , made bitter , eclypsed , or totally , at last , darkened ) she consisted of a few secret sealed ones , exempted , in GOD'S merciful care , from a common evill . Sometime , againe , she is of a number innumerable , Revel. 7. 9. Revel. 11. with Palms in hand . Her state hath bene , sometime , as the temple closed , in relation to al the holy citie , & court of the temple , trodden vnder foot of the Heathen : her Pastours , some-time , few , secret , ministring within the Temple , in sorrow , for prevayling Evils ; yet long without blood-shed , as being vnperceived . Sometime , again , vpon application of the true measuring Reede , ( for discerning the true Church , within the compas of so importable an impietie ) cruelly murdered , & barbarouslie intreated , even with applause of the World . Sometime , agayn , in greater vigour , terrifying their enemies ; & , in open view , Revel. 14. Revel. 1●… . 12. Revel. 18. ●… . flying thorow the midst of Heaven , with the ever-lasting Gospell ; & separated from incurable Contagion , to come vp hither . Sometime , as now at last , comming so down on the earth , as it is all lightened , with the glorious shyning of the Gospell . Wee know , that the true Church hath continued al-wayes : Yet so , as , in a common Apostasie , where-by Antichrist obtayned a Throne , even in the Temple of GOD ; and all the ●…es . 2. Earth followed the Beast , receiving his Character , Name , or Number , ( while to the Beast his wondering Sectators , and ●…l . 13. charactized Slaues , it appeared impossible , that anie such Companie could bee ) shee consisted of 144000 secret , sealed , ●…l. 14. and chaste ones , following the Lambe ; and having a powerfull , and plentifull Dispensation of Grace , and a sweet sound of well-tuned Harps ; al-be-it none could eyther heare , or learne , their Song , but them-selues .

Finallie , wee acknowledge , That the Gates of Hell never prevayled , or shall prevayle , agaynst the Church : but yet , they haue often assayled her , strangelie . And thus , in what-so-ever sense , your Assumption , Philomathes , ( That the Church of Rome , hath onelie , of all Companies in the Worlde , for manie Ages , retayned the name of CHRIST , and anie Worship there-of ) is eyther deceitfullie sophisticall , or evidentlie false . And so your Conclusion commeth to nought .

Philadelphus .

This poynted Syllogisme of yours , ( Eriphilus ) E●…bulus hath so blunted , as it will scarse serue to pricke a Pudding . And if neyther CONTINVANCE can bee a proper Marke of the Church ; and beeing modified , so as it may best seeme to bee one , yet is falselie assumed of Rome ; I see no better Conclusion , but that wee let her continue the Mother of Whoordomes , and that wee seeke the BRYDE , where Shee may bee better found out .

Of Propers , it 's a Propertie , that ever Of their owne Subjectes , they are surelie sayde : Satan shall nev'r CHRIST from His Church dissever . Continuance yet can not , tho , bee made Her proper Marke : let see how shee it had The verie moment of her first Creation . Some tract of Tyme must bee , of force , fore-layde , Where it is made a proper Praedication . This Poynt is als accorded amongst Clerks , No Common Cases can bee Proper Marks . Philomathes .

Well , ( Eubulus ) giving you , that the Church continued not al-wayes in one , and the same Condition , of obtayning Trueth ; and , that , possiblie , Errour might haue prevayled in the whole Church , in common , but not vniversallie , in each within it : yet , except some visible , and seene Companie , ( how small so-ever ) may bee produced by you , who haue professed your Fayth , & Doctrine ; to whom you may , with anie show of Reason , acclayme the Title of the true Bodie ; & so , lay over , on vs , the name , and blame , of the Sore : what is all your reasoning , but a poore , and verie improbable Paralogisme , A posse , ad esse , as Schooles speake ? And the poynt of our Syllogisme , is not yet so farre blunted , as Philadelphus would make it .

Eubulus .

To evince the possibilitie , it sufficiently meeteth VI. all your Men : who , agaynst our Demonstrations , of GOD His Trueth with vs , and the Apostasie of the Church of Rome , oppose , al-wayes , and onlie , to vs , the impossibilitie , that anie such Case should befall the Church . So as mine Argument is not , as you speake , A posse , ad esse : but , of that where-of wee evidentlie evince the Esse , and you denye the Posse , to cleare the certayntie of both . But I see whither you tende : for you come , now , to vnder-proppe your declyning CONTINVANCE , with as weake a Warrand , of VISIBILITIE ; which is your Man's next Marke , & which I haue , all-readie , so marred , with that which hath bene sayd to CONTINVANCE , as I shall haue but small a doe to hogh the Proppe ; that , so , both may tumble downe , in the Dust , to-gether .

Eriphilus .

I pray you , ( Philomathes ) goe forward , to the Marke of VISIBILITIE : which , in the Continuance of the Church , commeth most fitlie to bee considered . And , this Marke shall best cleare our Church , and make Eubulus to bee seene , in all his Subtilties : For , so shall a Church bee found to haue continued , if shee hath continued visible : And you will perceiue Eubulus so pintched , with this Note , as he will vanish away , in his Invisibilitie ; and will giue vs a Church . continuing , for-sooth , a thousand yeares , by miere imagination .

Eubulus .

If I did so farre distrust our Cause , ( Eriphilus ) VII . as that I would , there-fore , seeke to escape by Subtilties , why would I haue suffered my selfe , ( and that vnnecessarilie ) to bee drawne a-side , by you , to so ydle a Disputation , about that , where-of it is shame , for anie resolved Christian , once to make question ? For , how-so-ever , that , for Philomathes better satisfaction , I was , and am , contented to deale thus ; yet , what a senselesse thing , in effect , is this , That the Trueth of GOD , ( so clearlie revealed , and , which , by anie , having Spirituall Eyes , is as easilie discerned from Errour , as Light is from Darknesse ) for Man's vayne humour , should bee put to this forme , and Rule of Tryall ; That , except it may bee cleared , where , and with whome , it hath visiblie continued , wee will prowdlie , and rebelliouslie , reject it ? Which is no lesse , yea , much more , both ridiculous , and vnjust ; than , if the Sunne , long lapped vp , vnder Clowdes , and , there-after , breaking foorth , brightlie , should , therefore , by Dolts , bee denyed , to bee the true Sunne ; and , that it were but some Counterfey●… , and never-before-seene Comet : Because , for-sooth , their weake Eyes had not continuallie perceived , all the particular progresse of it . Whereas , in anie true Sparkle of a Godlie , and Christian Disposition , and right Spirituall Wisdome , wee should thus reason : This is , evidentlie , the Trueth of GOD ; and , there-fore , how-so-ever it hath not appeared , to continue , or keepe place ; yet , I am certayne , that it hath never , all-to-gether , fayled , from amongst GOD His Children . An dt , his is Haeresie . There-fore , howe great place so-ever it hath had , or , how long so-ever it hath borne swey , even in the Holie ●…vel . 11. ●… . Citie , and Court of the Temple , yet it is clearlie to bee casten out .

And , in the beginning of our Dispute , I layde such Groundes , of the Evidencie , and Sufficiencie of Holie Scripture , for full Resolution , in these Poyntes ; as I might , well anough , haue excused my selfe , from diverting , thus vaynlie , with you , to these Questions , eyther of Continuance , or Visibilitie ; if I were in anie such perill , by your Praerogatiues in them , as you praesume . But , this cleareth you , ( Eriphilus ) that you are , now , come to your strongest piece : for anie feare where-of , I will not yet so farre vanish , as you wiene : But , even dismasking your Man , of this vayne , and so-much-vaunted-of Visard , of Visibilitie , I will , GOD willing , show him , in discerning of GOD His Church , to bee visiblie blynde : and , will not giue you a Church , by imagination , but , continuing , all-wayes , reallie , and visible , though not to Mules .

Philomathes .

Verilie , you make mee though not to vanish , yet to wonder at a little ; That you confesse , the true Church , to haue beene all-wayes visible : and , will make me wonder , yet more , if you performe what you promise . For , I ever imagined , that all your Defence , in this Poynt , had beene , to clayme vnto the Invisibilitie of the Church . But , you haue sharpened mine Appetite , to heare you of this Matter . Thus , then , our Poet speaketh of this Marke .

CHAPTER V. VISIBLE . THis is another Marke most cleare , Neque 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 res●…e 〈◊〉 non potest 〈◊〉 Christian●… : ●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 v●…ra , si 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 p●… times , & 〈◊〉 tati●… ab 〈◊〉 bus s●…pscrit . 〈◊〉 ill●… 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Arn●…ius , 3. adversus ●…tes . ●…reger . Na●…n . orat . 21. d●…●…d . Ath●…nasii . ●…ee who pro●…eth one , and ●… same Do●…ne of Fayth , ●… fellow-part●…er of the same ●…ayre : but who maintaineth a ●…trarie ●…eth , is to bee ●…ounted an ●…versarie , al●…it even sitting the Chayre . ●…d this , in●…de , hath the ●…ne , but that ●…er hath the ●…e matter , and ●…eth of Succes●…n . The Church of God must still appeare , As a Citie vpon an Hill , Shyne , and continue still , As a light , on a Candle-sticke , Such is the Church Catholicke . Our Saviour sayeth , If one offend , And will not bee ruled by his Friend , Tell the Church , without delay . And if hee will not then obey , Doe thou esteeme such a man , An Heathen , or a Publicane . Is not this the Church , where-in wee see , Two hundreth Bishops , thirtie three , To haue succeeded each other , Since the tyme of Saynct Peter ? Shew mee this Marke in you , And I will say , your Fayth is true . If it bee not the Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Eubulus .

This is your Man's third Marke , and which you haue brought , to beare vp your decaying CONTINVANCE . I. But , I say , ( Philomathes ) that no more can VISIBILITIE bee a proper Marke of the Church , than could CONTINVANCE ; for , it is a common accident , of all visible creatures : So as , al-be-it I should yeelde as much of Visibilitie , as I confessed of Continuance , yet would it but serue for a Negatiue Conclusion , agaynst others ; but for no Affirmatiue Demonstration of your owne Church : And , thus , still , thorow all , your Man's mayne Proposition prooveth vayne .

Philomathes .

I must confesse , that Visibilitie , no more than Continuance , is a proper Note of the Church : For you haue clearlie evinced it . Yet , as , out of our Man , I framed an Argument , before , vpon Continuance ; so , nowe , I will , from Visibilitie , ( even a common Accident , as you call it ) conclude , not onlie negatiuelie , agaynst your Church ; but ; affirmatiuelie , of the Church of Rome . And , I reason thus :

The Church of CHRIST is al-wayes visible . But , for manie Ages , no Church was visible , but the Church of Rome . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the onlie Church of CHRIST .

Eubulus .

Such an affirmatiue Conclusion , jumpe , as was II. your former , vpon CONTINVANCE ; by a deceiving consequence , vpon the presumed Defectes of others . Which , as it beguiled you , in your CONTINVANCE , so will it fayle you here also , for it is the verie same . And , as I so over-threw your Argument , from CONTINVANCE , that you were fayne to flee to Visibilitie , for succour : so will I make , now , the weaknesse of this your Reason , from Visibilitie , not only visible , but even palpable also . Where-in , yet , I will not waste tyme , to show , how ridiculouslie , vainlie , and impertinentlie , hee laboureth , to prooue the Proposition , of this his Syllogisme . That hath beene oftener showed , than hee hath syllables in his Proper Ballad : neyther will I insist , to expose his follie , in bringing bare personall Succession , ( and not that which all orthodox Fathers call the principall , and proper succession ) and but of one particular Church , ( as if it had fayled in all other Churches ) for stablishing of his Assumption . What is true Succession , and who are true Successours , and how vnjustlie eyther are appropriated , or attributed to Rome , I haue cleared else-where . I come to the point it Defe●…e of Sect. 4. Defence of Sect. ●…3 . & selfe : whereof , al-be-it I haue alreadie written at such length , as I might bee well excused , to referre you whollie there-to , ( my Bookes passing so commonlie in the Countrey ) yet , because in this Marke , as in the toppe of your strength , you glorie most , I will , GOD willing , in few words , vnfolde your Errour . This then , ( Philomathes ) is the Major , or Proposition of your Argument : The Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible .

Philomathes .

And you haue , al-readie , as I thinke , granted it : neyther see I , ( though you would recall your word ) what , goodly , you can say against it .

Eubulus .

I am to recall nothing of that I haue sayde : but III. yet I must cleare , in what sense this your Position is to bee admitted , for pulling your men from their ordinarie Starting-Hole of Aequivocation . For , how-so-ever , I will still grant , that , in some respects , the Church of CHRIST is alwayes visible : yet , I will denye your Proposition , if , from a restrict Case , you draw it to an absolute Assertion , because , in some consideration , the Church is invisible . And , to cleare this : In respect of the matter of the Church , ( which is Men ) and , in respect of the common outward forme , ( in the publicke & common Ensigne of Profession , & worship ) we confesse , the Church to bee , and , al-wayes to haue beene , visible . But , in respect of her inward forme , & the purpose of Grace , ( where-on chiefelie the Trueth of the Church hangeth ) she is invisible . And , the LORD knoweth , who are His. Schooles doe call the one , Rationem Signi ; & , the other , Rationem Beneplaciti . And , seeing it is an Article of our Faith , to belieue the Church ; and , that Fayth , is of things , which are not seene ; it followeth , of necessitie , that in some ( and that a most principall ) respect , the Church is invisible . For , to be believed , & to be seene , can not consist . Yea , this is so evident a trueth , as Bellarmine is forced to confesse it : these are his words , Melius dico in Ecclesia aliquid videri , Eccles. lib. 3. cap. 15. & aliquid credi ; videmus enim eum coetum qui est Ecclesia ; sed quod ille coetus sit ipsa vera CHRISTI Ecclesia non videmus , sed credimus : that is , I say , better that in the Church some thing is seene , and some thing is believed ; for wee see that Companie which is the Church ; but , that that Companie is the selfe true Church of CHRIST , we see not , but belieue it . The one consideration , discerneth Christians , true or false , from open Idolaters , and Heathen men : the other , distinguisheth true Christians , from outward professours onlie , & common worshippers . Now , as these distinct Considerations should be sophisticallie confounded ; so you see , ( Philomathes ) that your Proposition , taken absolutelie , were deceitfullie false .

Philomathes .

Even so much as you grant , will serue me for concluding of mine Argument ; so , as I neede not impugne your Distinction , or disadvow ought that Bellarmine sayeth ▪ I pleade , but that the Church is ever visible , Ratione Signi , ( as you speake ) that is , that the true , & Orthodox externall worship , and worshippers , haue beene al-wayes visible . For , it must bee some externall Signe , falling vnder Sense , and outward perception , which must bee a Marke of the Church , as you haue evinced agaynst vs , eve●… by our Bellarmine's suffrage : and , there-vpon , did bereaue vs of our first Marke of CATHOLICKE , or VNIVERSALITIE .

Eubulus .

As you even modifie your Proposition , ( Philomathes ) IV. yet it implyeth a deceit , which you bewray , by your owne Glosse : That is , ( say you ) that the true , and Orthodox Worship , and Worshippers , haue al-wayes beene visible . Which , if you doe meane in this Sense , that , al-wayes , by the common Ensigne of publicke Profession , ( Ratione Signi ) it might ever haue bene discerned , where the true Worship , and true Worshippers were , and might haue beene seene ; I will heartilie yeelde you it . But , if he●…e-by , ( as your Men pleade ) you would signifie , that , all-wayes , and in common , lawfull , and true Worship , and , lawfull , and true Worshippers , haue so farre obtayned , & borne swey , as what-so-ever , in common , helde place in the Church , that was to bee esteemed Trueth : then , I still deny , even your modified Proposition . And , it is still one , and the same Fallacie , wherein , before , in the Mark of Continuance , you did fall ; and which , at length , I elided there . In my Distinction , Signi , & Beneplaciti , I tolde you , even now , That by the visible Ensigne , Christians , in common , good , or bad ; or Orthodox , or otherwayes , were discerned from Forraigners , and Heathen men . Now , heere-vpon , to inferre , That , by the common , visible Ensigne , ( in the communitie of Christians ) true , & Orthodox Worshippers ; or , true , & Orthodox Worship , are discerned , from false , and adulterous , both vnder the same common Ensigne ; you may see , how chyldish Sophistrie it were . If Satan had but one way , of assayling the Church , namelie , by open , and avowed Hostilitie : and , if none , but lawfull , and Orthodox Worshippers , were vnder it ; then , had you reason , to make the common Ensigne , of Visible Profession , a sure Marke , not onlie of Christians , in common , but even of true Christians al-so ; at least , of lawfull outward worship . But , seeing , that , both , by Scripture , and many folde Experience , we know , that , by no meane , he hath , so effectually prevayled , as , by transforming him-selfe , in an Angel of Light ; & , vnder pretence of the common Ensigne , to adulterate all lawfull worship ; of necessitie , for discerning the true Church , or approoved lawfull Worship , from the Abhomination of Desolation , ( both of them ( in sanctis Ecclesiae locis ) vnder one , and the same Ensigne , of Christian Profession ) wee must advert , ●…l. 13. 11. not onlie whose Hornes are pretended ; but also , whose Mouth speaketh . So as , still , you may see , that even Visibilitie must bee reduced vnto , and examined , by our onelie demonstratiue Marke , which , in the beginning of our Disputation , I layde downe .

Philomathes .

I loue so greatlie to bee resolved , especiallie in this so mayne , and maynlie controverted a Poynt , as I will come farder with you , than , I know , our Church will allow mee : and , giue you this , That even Errour , might possiblie haue taken place , in the whole Church , in common : ( which Case I did , not obscurelie , put , at the beginning of our Conference , about this Marke ) yet , seeing wee accord in this , That CHRIST hath ever had a true Church : and , seeing that you yeelde mee this , al-so , That the same is al-wayes visible , in respect of the matter there-of , [ MEN ] and externall forme of Profession : ( which is , of necessitie , a certayne trueth ; in so farre , as not onlie with the Heart wee belieue to Righteousnesse , but also , with the Mouth , wee confesse vnto Salvation . ) How-so-ever , it eyther hath , or might haue fallen , that most part were misscarried , and that Adulterous worship , and Worshippers , haue had chiefe Rowme , and beene most conspicuous , and visible : Yet , how can you denye , but some number , at least , behooved to be , al-wayes , of lawfull Worshippers , and holding the Orthodox Fayth : who , both in their persons , and in their Worship , were visible , even in tyme of greatest Corruption ?

Eubulus .

Your vpright Dealing , and desire of Resolution , V. ( Philomathes ) maketh mee to let that freelie with you , which , with others , I would , perhaps , haue longer stucke vnto . For bringing you , then , to your Wishes , I graunt your Proposition , in your last declared Sense , to be true . But then , I say , of your Assumption , ( No Church hath remayned visible , but the Church of Rome ) that it hath the same fallacie in it , which I opened , and refelled at length , in the same Assumption of Continuance . For , if by the Church of Rome , you meane the common bodie , of the whole visible Church , albeit even affected , with the over-going Evill ; & on which , for more effectual deceit , tyrannicallie the name of the beast sitting there-in , was by him imposed : then is your Assumption sophisticallie deceitfull , in reasoning , A dici , ( from , So called ) ad esse , ( to , So is ) and , concluding , from the Bodie absolutelie , to the Gangrene , or Sore in it , or , contrary-wayes , from the Evill in the Bodie , to the Bodie affected there-with , in common , but not vniversallie ; as before I showed . And , vpon your Assumption , thus vnderstood , your Conclusion will not follow . But , if by the Church of Rome , your Assumption meaneth the Evill , and Sore , agaynst which onlie it is that wee pleade , and not agaynst the common Bodie , where-of wee are ; then , is it manifestlie false : and , so , your Conclusion fayleth .

Philomathes .

But , except you cleare to mee , how , in that Bodie , besides that which you doe call the over-going Sore , there were some visible partes , brooking Health , and that visiblie ; I must still thinke , that your subtill Distinction , of the Bodie , from the Sore , is but vayne . For , I pray you , for manie Ages , who were seene , or knowne , to haue anie differing Profession ? or , to haue resisted , and condemned , the Church of Rome ?

Eubulus .

Now , consider , ( Philomathes ) how aequitablie VI. you requyre that of mee . For , first , How-so-ever it may be easilie seene , and showne , in a Bodie , but contracting a Disease , whyle , as yet , all Members are not much infected , or affected there-with : or , agayne , in a Bodie , convalescing , whyle eyther all the Bodie is al-most freed from the Sicknesse , or , at least , the strongest , and noblest partes , haue expelled the Disease ; al-be-it , perhaps , the D●…egges there-of rest , a space , in the extremities of Handes , or Feete , and keepe them swollen . Yet , ( Philomathes ) it shall bee hardlie showne in a Bodie , in the prevayling height , and mayne Fit of the Sicknesse , when it hath so farre obtayned , as all parts of that Bodie , in common , are , eyther infected , or , at least , heavilie affected , yea , and even much afflicted there-by ; so , as no part can bee separablie showne , brooking , a-part , perfect health , without eyther Infection , or Affection . And , yet , even in such a Case , a Skilfull man , beholding , and considering , will perceiue , evidentlie , that it is a living , al-be-it a sick Bodie : yea , that such Strength , of naturall Vigour , yet remayneth there-in , al-be-it no-where vnaffected , which , both , resisteth the wasting Disease , even in the verie Paroxisme , and , in ende , by prevailing vitall power , & helpe of right Medicine , expelleth it . For , as in such a Bodie , if no remnant were of vitall Vigour , all Sense , and Motion , should be quyte extinguished : So , in a Bodie , totallie affected , & afflicted , al-be-it not vniversallie infected , it were a monstrous , & vnnatural thing , in such a Case , to see anie part of the Bodie , a-part , no-thing affected ; al-be-it there will , even in that Bodie , be parts , not infected : where-in , as in a citadle lyfe , & health residing , they from thence , both fight against the over-going Evill , & , at last , become victorious over it . Of the Church of Sardis , it it said , ●…vel . 3. 1. That , having a name , that she lived , yet she was dead ; & , not-with-standing , is exhorted , to strengthen the parts which remayned , and were readie to die . And , even in this miserable Case , the LORD witnesseth , That even there , Hee had a few names , which had not defiled their garments : & , these yet stil lived , in the communion of that same Church , & were not known by any visible separation , from the rest of that Bodie . For , separation is neither requisite , nor lawfull , till all hope of Cure be past . And , thus , neither were the faithfull ones vnder Antichristian tyrannie , till , after long tolleration , & much heavinesse , for the waxing Evill , at last , labouring to haue cured it , they were cruelly murdered , & , lay , barbarously , vnburied , & , insolentlie mocked , in the streetes of Babell , which neither would , nor could be cured . And , then , leaving her , as a burnt Mountayne , being , by divine warrand , commanded , to Come vp hither , they did separate themselues , not from the Church , but from the Contagions , and incurable Evill , in the Church , but not of it . For , wee would faine haue cured Babell , but shee would not . Next , ( Philomathes ) how-so-ever lightened men , each in their owne times , even in most desperate state , & condition , both might , and did see , some pure remnant , which were well knowne to the godly , then ; yet , how absurdlie is anie account of them required of succeeding Ages , to whose knowledge ( through repressing and suppressing tyrannie , of such as disposed of all Records at their pleasure ) nothing did come , but what obtained commonlie in that tyme ? In despite of all which , not-with-standing , so much testimonie hath remained , as may satisfie , and certifie , anie vpright mynde , That still Trueth was in the Church , & in all Ages had its owne Assertours ; al-be-it not all , in a lyke degree of contestation , even in most corrupt tymes ; as the Gatalogues of them , drawne vp by our Men , for meeting this your Objection , make manifest , if you please with an vnpartiall Heart to reade them .

More-over , heere , agayne , ( Philomathes ) you stumble , at a double Deceit , in the word VISIBLE : in that , not onlie , you conclude , That , what-so-ever is visible , is , al-so , seene : but , there-with , al-so , vpon no open resisting , you inferre no being , most absurdlie . All men know , that from Tolleration , to Approbation , you can never stablish a Conclusion . Manie will , and , for manie Respects , tollerate that , which they are so farre from approoving , as they will vtterlie abhorre it . And , ( to keepe our former similitude ) how manie haue you seene , subject to great , and dangerous Diseases , and having their Bodies repleat with vicious Humours ; who , yet , whyle they could retayne anie reasonable condition of Health , would not adventure , to mooue the Bodie ; by expelling , with perilous Medicaments , the nociue Humours ? The Church of Pergamus , tollerated what shee neyther approoved , Reve●…●… nor communicated there-with : but lurked , even where Satan's Throne was ; keeping the Name of GOD , who knew her Dwelling , and Case . Physicians come not to Burning , and Cutting , till the Evill bee , not onelie desperate , but , al-so , that the Lyfe of the Bodie is in danger there-by . Your Romish Evill , ( Philomathes ) did growe on slowlie , and by Degrees ; and came not to the toppe of Impietie at once : so , as the Degrees of Contestation , in difference of tyme , and diverse degrees of a waxing Evill , behooved to bee much diverse . And , neyther could the Case admit , or was it the LORD His will , that Contestation should bee , in the highest degree , till the Impietie came to the highest : though , even in the Growth , and subtill Successe , of that Mysterie of Iniquitie , manie , both mislyked it , and mourned for it : keeping , them-selues , the Name of GOD , and vttering , in their owne tymes , not obscure Signes of their Miscontentment .

The other Poynt , where-in you are deceived , and which , in the first rowme , I propounded , is ; That vpon Visibilitie , you conclude Sight . But , manie thinges , and manie tymes , will bee visible , which yet are not al-wayes seene . Doeth not Experience teach vs , howe hardlie one Man will bee found out amongst a thousand , even by such as do both know him , and search after him ? how long , then , may hee lurke vnseene , of such as neyther know him , nor thinke of him ? And , in the midst of so great Repressing and Suppressing Tyrannie , what marvell , though they were , in common , vnseene , as not onelie beeing few , but forced also to lurke , and by GOD His Gracious Providence , covered from their Enemies furie ? This beguyleth you , ( Philomathes ) that you account , no worship eyther to bee at all , or to bee visible , but which is separatelie openlie , and avowedlie practized , in the common view of all men . Which , manifolde Experience , and cleare Scripture , teacheth vs , to bee an absurd Conception : and , which Case , neyther that course of tyme , and of the Evill , by GOD His permission , waxing , and obtayning in it , could suffer : and , which , in the wyse purpose of GOD His admirable Dispensation , was neyther needfull , nor expedient .

Eriphilus .

Did I not devine , rightlie , ( Eubulus ) to what pintches this Poynt would dryue you ? When all is done , what doe you , but vanish away , in your Invisibilitie ; giving vs a Church , by miere imagination ? A Church , invisiblie visible , and , visiblie invisible . Are you not ashamed , so to dallie ? Our Church was al-wayes visible , ( say you ) but it was not seene : and , I pray you , what a visible Church , is that , which none doeth see ?

Eubulus .

Ajax , transported with furie , ( Eriphilus ) did VII . slay manie sakelesse Sow , in stead of Vlysses . And , you are , now , in great chafe , with your owne Shadow . I did not say , neyther ever mynded I to say , That none did see our Church : but , I , justlie , taxed a false Conclusion , led from VISIBILITIE , to common , and continuall seeing . For , manie thinges are visible , which yet neyther are , in common , nor al-wayes seene . And , this maketh not our Church invisiblie visible ; but it sheweth him , who will deny it , to bee visiblie blynde . I acknowledge , That , how-so-ever Antichristian Darknesse , hath over-gone the whole Church , in common , yet that ever still , with-in the compasse of that Vsurpation , vnder the common Ensigne , were numbers of true , and lawfull Worshippers , and , a true , and lawfull Worship : which were , al-wayes , visible , by the Ensigne , and common Bodie : as whyte is visible , in the rucke and heape , how-so-ever covered with the over-going Chaffe , or Strae , till the Fanner come , and purge the Floore . And , to come yet more neare , ( Eriphilus ) I say , That they were not onlie visible in this sort , but , al-so , in their persons , and practise of pure Worship : and , that they were seene , al-so , al-be-it not , in common , perceived . For , manie thinges , will bee both visible , and seene , al-so , which yet will escape perception , even of the Seers . Yea , which you will yet , perhaps , more admire , I affirme , That they were not onlie visible , and seene , but perceived , al-so ; though not in common , nor of the blynded worldlie sort , ( which was the LORD His Providence , for their preservation ; ) but only of their Rev. 14 sealed Brethren , who were brought from the Earth ; and , being spirituall Virgines , onlie got Eyes , to see , and perceiue ; and , Eares , to heare , and vnderstand , that sweet , and high-tuned Song , which the Beast's stupified Sectators could neyther heare , nor learne . Now , then , though I affirme , and that justlie , That from Visibilitie , one may not conclude of seeing : neither , from seeing , may one conclude of perceiving : neyther , from both seeing , and perceiving , of seeing , and perceiving , in common : yet I deny not , but freelie , and truelie affirme , That our Church was all-wayes visible , seene , and perceived , but not of such as had no Eyes . Doe you not know , that manie thinges may bee visible ; which yet , through the blyndnesse of beholders , are not seene ? yea , and manie things are seene , which even the seers , ( through mis-regard , or over-vayling mist , or GOD , in justice , benumming their Senses ) yet , will not take vp , nor perceiue : which , yet , the illuminated , will both see , and perceiue clearlie .

To reason , then , from Visibilitie , to common sight ; or , from Visibilitie , and common sight , to conclude common Perception ; or , to conclude of what is not seene , or perceived , in common , That it is not seene , or perceived , at all ; yea , is not visible ; yea , is not at all ; it is such a dead kynde of Argumentation , ( Eriphilus ) as , where-in all your choler will never kindle the lyfe of good Logicke . Howe manie Papistes , and howe much Popish worship , is , and that visible , within this YLAND , which , yet , is not seene , in common , or perceived ? Yea , ( Eriphilus ) though I bee visible , and you doe , al-so , both see , and heare mee ; yet , you neyther perceiue , nor vnderstand mee . How manie things will be lying , even hard by vs ; yea , before our Eyes ; which , yet , will wee not , a long tyme , perceiue , though , sedulouslie , seeking after them ? I aske you , ( Eriphilus ) was not Lot ; were not his Guestes , the Angels , ( in their condition , at that tyme ; ) were not his Wyfe , and Daughters ; was not his House , and the Gates there-of , visible ?

Eriphilus .

Doeth it agree with your pretended Gravitie , to aske of mee , such scornfull Questions ?

Eubulus .

That you may see , howe I doe , verie pertinentlie , I. and seriouslie , aske this of you ; I tell you , That , howe visible so-ever they were , yet they escaped the perception , ●… 11. of all SODOME , even greedilie groaping after them . The Sunne was visible , yea , & clearlie , both seene , ●… . 21. and shyning , in GOSHEN , when , not-with-standing , in all AEGYPT , was palpable Darknesse . And , what wonder , then , though that great Citie , which , spirituallie , Rev. 11. ●… . is called Sodome , and Aegypt , did not see , or perceiue , what , yet , was visible , seene , and shyning , in the midst of her ? And , what marvell , that they are still so blynde ; as , not to perceiue , howe these former thinges , in GOD His purpose , were Stampes of the lyke ; but , greater Cases to fall out there-after ? Was eyther ELISHA , or SAMARIA , 2. King . 6. or the Region , thorow which the ARAMITES were led , there-fore , eyther invisible , or not seene of them ; because GOD syled their Eyes ; that seeing , yet they should not perceiue ? But , ( Eriphilus ) to be yet more playne , and to come even close to your hand . As , before , I cleared , how the Church continued al-wayes , al-be-it not al-wayes in one , and the same Condition : so , I tell you , now , That the Church was ever , and in all Ages , visible ; how-so-ever not al-wayes in a-lyke measure of Health , and Spirituall Vigour : which is your Mens grosse Fallacie . A Man , even brought to bed with sicknesse , is no les visible , than when he walked abroad , in perfect health , albeit neither seen of so many , nor so healthfull as before . Your men are ridiculous , in asking incessantlie , where our Church was , before Luther : wheras the Church now , the Church in Luther's dayes , & the Church before his days , even vpward , to the infancie therof , is , & was , still one , & the same Church , & always visible : but , first , in health , & healthsom vigour : next , by degrees , contracting sicknes : at length , heavilie infected , affected , & afflicted , with that disease , whereof you , Eriphilus , are dangerously sick , & Philomathes hath somwhat tasted also : & now is convalescing , through the Medicine of the Word & Spirit : and alyke in all these cases , was ever , & is , visible , & seen also , according to her distinct conditions , in diverse tymes . Neyther haue wee another Church , or a new Church , as your Doctors would perswade the Simple : but the same Church ; & a renewed Church . Neither haue we forsaken the Vnitie , & Communion of the Church , within which , & wherof we stil are : but we haue forsaken Babel , in the Church which hath ●…firmed her selfe agaynst al Cure . For , howsoever the sicke Bodie , was the Church , yet the Sicknesse oppugning , and wasting the lyfe there-of , was never the Church : and , al-be-it in it , yet never of it . Now , ( Eriphilus ) you see , I am farre from dallying , and , am come to more playne Dealing , than , perhaps , well pleaseth you .

Philomathes .

Verilie ( Eubulus ) I can not denye , but your Reasons are sound , and solide ; and , your Distinctions are subtill . But , it seemeth exceeding strange , that anie such Case , and so long a tyme , should haue befallen the Church of GOD : which maketh mee yet to suspect , that your Argumentes , are more out of subtiltie of Logicke , than according to the Veritie of the Matter : and , that , how-so-ever they evince , indeede , clearlie , a Possibilitie of such a Case : yet , that anie such Case , in trueth , was , they will not conclude : And , it were a rash Conception , so to thinke of holie Church . So that , according as ▪ I sayde before , you seeme still to reason , but A posse , ad esse , from Possibilitie , to Reall existence , which will not necessarilie follow .

Eubulus .

I confesse , ( Philomathes ) that the Case is , and will seeme , strange , to anie not acquaynted with the cleare course of Scripture , and the LORD His wyse , and wonderfull Dispensation , clearlie fore-tolde there-in , and fallen out accordinglie . For , the workes of GOD are wonderfull , and , Hee is marvelous , in the Case of His Saynctes . As , great is the Mysterie of Godlinesse ; so , al-so , is that of Iniquitie . And , without true illumination , to know the Scriptures of GOD , none ever shall attayne , eyther to the healthsome Knowledge of the one , or happie Discoverie of the other . But , ( Philomathes ) seeing you confesse , That I haue clearlie evinced the Possibilitie of such Apostasie in the Church , as where-by Errour may take place , in common ; and , that , yet , not-with-standing , GOD may , verie well , preserue Trueth , and true , and lawfull Worship , and Worshippers , al-be-it , in common , vnperceived : and , considering the manie , and capitall Poyntes , where-with so manie famous Churches , now , so long tyme , charge your Church of Rome : I aske you , If in this Case , you thinke her well defended , with the pretended Impossibilitie of Erring ? Or , if shee hath not great reason , both to suspect , what possiblie might befall her ; and , carefullie , to descende , to an exact Tryall , whether it hath so befallen her , or not ?

Philomathes .

Certaynlie , I thinke the weyght of so great Poyntes , as are in Controversie , to-gether with the Challenge of so manie Churches , requyre no lesse , than that ▪ IX Matters bee condignlie tryed , and examined : and , that a prowde Denyall , will not justifie anie , in such a Case .

Eubulus .

Well , ( Philomathes ) and , in so clearlie evinced X. a Possibilitie of Apostasie , as requyreth a condigne Tryall ; whether , thinke you , is it the surest way , to put the stable Trueth of GOD , revealed in His Worde , to this inaequitable , and vnsure Condition ; as eyther to approoue it selfe , by the Multitude , and Continuance of Holders , who , yet , may erre , or , then , to bee rejected ? Or , rather , to laye , for a sure Ground ; That , seeing it is Trueth , there-fore , it ought to subdue all Myndes , and take place agaynst all Praejudices , of Praescription , Praerogatiue of Holders , Tymes , Places , or Persons ? Because it dependeth , not on the vnstable Humours of Men , who are but , naturallie , Liars , and , may bee deceived . But , is , in it selfe , so cleare ; as , beeing admitted , purelie , to pleade for it selfe , it will , sufficientlie , approoue , and , justifie , it selfe , agaynst all , howe stronglie so-ever grounded Errour ; and all , eyther Qualitie , or Multitude of Mayntayners , or Praescription of Tyme . In short , ( Philomathes ) whether ought the Trueth of GOD , to bee subject to Men ? or , ought all Men , to bee subject vnto it ? And , which of these two Reasons , conclude strongest ? and , on which , may a Christian Soule , best rest ? This hath long had place , and Approbation , with most Men : and , there-fore , is the Trueth . Or , this is GOD His Trueth ▪ there-fore , it ought to haue place , even agaynst all praejudice what-so-ever . And , how-so-ever it hath appeared , to haue beene perished , from amongst Men ; yet , certaynlie , it hath remayned all-wayes .

Philomathes .

Verilie , I can not denye , but that it were a sacrilegious remeritie , to subject the Trueth of GOD , to Man : al-be-it , agayne , in the Question , what is that Trueth , I thinke , the judgement of the Church , and what hath long bene held of Her , should be much regarded ; and not rejected , without great , and verie cleare Reasons .

Eubulus .

That I yeeld you , ( Philomathes : ) and truelie , if , in ●…I . the present Poynt of our Disputation , we had or could bring no more , but , ( as you alleadged ) the Possibilitie of the case : where-of no Evidence might bee produced , that accordinglie it had fallen out . And , if my Reasons , and Distinctions , in this Matter , were but from quirkes of Logicke , and not according to clearelie-fore-tolde , and , accordinglie , fallen-out Events , you had the lesse reason to regard them . But , besides the Possibilitie , which I haue evinced ; & besides the vndoubted Trueth it selfe , so clearlie delivered in Scripture , as may sufficientlie certifie a Soule , that , accordinglie , the Case hath fallen . The holie Ghost ( for our farder Resolution ) hath also , ( according to both the Possibilitie , and the event , in effect , agreeable ) so clearlie fore-tolde the whole particular Case , and Course , as , I may boldlie say , to whom it appeareth strange , They are yet great Strangers , in the written Word of GOD : and , in such great measure of Light , as now , in GOD'S singular Mercie , is revealed , who disdayne to learne , what even Artificers ( in such open and large offer of Grace ) are holden to know , they are worthilie blynded , in GOD'S just indignation . Wee are not onlie fore-warned , by the LORD Him-selfe , in the dayes of His flesh ; and , agreeablie , w , 24. there-after , by the Apostle Paul , of such a common Apostasie in the Church , as where-by Antichrist should obtayne a Throne , even in the Temple of GOD : but , also , most amplie , ●…l. 2. particularlie , and delightfullie , vnder most goodlie , and significant Types , in the Booke of the Revelation , the whole course of Storie , is plainlie , and at length expressed . So , as ( Philomathes ) I haue not alleadged what probablie might be ▪ but what the holie GHOST hath playnlie , and particulie , fore-tolde , and , fore-warned vs , should come to passe : and , which , accordinglie , wee see clearlie performed . Yo●… Men are deceived , because they knowe neyther the ●…criptures , nor the Power of GOD. And , I am so farre from seeking subtill Evasions , in this Argument , as , I , vprightlie , protest , in the Presence of HIM , Whome I serue , in the GOSPELL of HIS Sonne ; That , ( laying aside the verie selfe cleare , and infallible Groundes of Trueth , delivered in Scripture , where-vpon agaynst all , eyther Probabilities ▪ or Praesumptions , our Fayth may , and must , solidlie relye ) there is no Reason , in the Worlde , so effectuall , to assure my Soule , of the Veritie of our Religion , and , that wee are of CHRIST His true Church ; as are the verie chiefe thinges , which our Adversaries doe object agaynst vs . Neyther anie so pregnant a Motiue , to perswade mee , ( laying aside the consideration of their playne haereticall Opinions ) that they are the Antichristian Bodie ; as even those things , where-in they doe , chiefelie , and , most insolentlie , glorie . Which , to cleare vnto you , at such length , and in such evidence , as I well could , and , the Matter , al-so , requyreth ; it were a longer Speach , than this short Occasion of Conference affordeth vs . But , if you list to take paynes , you may reade , what I haue , at more length , written heereof , in my DISPVTATIONS , FOR OVR CALLINGES , and , in my COMMENTARIE , on Revel. 11. and 14 the REVELATION . Which , with the little that I haue nowe sayde , when you haue more deeplie considered ; then , if you remayne yet vnsatisfyed , how-so-ever I neyther loue , to contende with the Humourous , nor to multiplye Babling , vpon Blockes ; yet , I will , at your Desyre , not sticke , to take more paynes , vpon your Ingenuitie .

Philomathes .

I will , GOD willing , reade those Bookes , where-vnto you haue sharpened mine Appetite , by that which you haue nowe spoken : having , there-by , so filled mine Heart , with great Doubts , of such things , as I accounted inexpugnable poynts : that , I can not choose , but to insist , till I bee setled , as it shall please GOD to informe me , in that which is the right Way of His Feare .

Philadelphus .

How invisible so-ever wee bee , ( Eriphilus ) and how short so-ever you bee of sight , yet , I hope , you may , now , perceiue your owne foyle , in the chiefe Flowre of your Forces : so , as Eubulus hath not ( as you presumed ) evanished , in Invisibilitie , but , hath made all your , long , and vaynlie vaunted of , Visibilitie , to vanish , in a vayne Smoake .

What 's visible ; but , there-to Visibilitie , In common , doth , though not a-lyke , conveane ? Why should the Bryde , without all Probabilitie , Visible hers , then singularlie , wiene ? Thinges visible , attour , are not aye seene : And thinges ev'n seene , yet will escape Perception , Of lightned Men : and what perceived beene , Mules agaynst that , will madlie make Exception . The Church was aye seene , visible , perceived : Of cleare , but no of rakie Eyes , that raved . Philomathes .

Whether wee haue anie such Foyle , as you alleadge ; or , you such Victorie , as you presume , ( Philadelphus ) you are al-wayes readie to sing your owne Triumph . But , now , al-be-it wee haue , indeede , al-readie passed thorow these Markes , where-in wee esteeme our selues strongest ; and , that Eubulus hath ( I must confesse ) answered , more than I exspected : yet , I pray you , let vs heare what he hath to say agaynst the rest . The next Marke , is VNITIE : and thus our Poet speaketh of it .

CHAPTER VI. UNITIE . Chrysost. Homil. 46 , in Matth. Hee goeth not out of the Church , who goeth out bodilie ; but he who spirituallie leaveth the Fundaments of Ecclesiasticall Trueth ▪ Wee went out from them , in regard of place ; but , they , from vs , in regard o●… Fayth . Wee haue left , with them , th●… Fundamentes o●… Walles : but , they haue left , with vs , the Fundaments of Scriptures . Speciosum qu●…dem nomen est pacis , & pulchra est opi●… vnitatis : sed q●… ambigat 〈◊〉 s●… Ecclesia atque Evangelior●… v●…tam p●…cem esse qu●… Christi est ▪ Hilar ▪ lib. contr. 〈◊〉 ▪ & alios Arri●…s ▪ Hand ill●…●… Ecclesia pac●… disc●… , imò 〈◊〉 conseq●… fidei loade●… qui a 〈◊〉 perfidia sa segrega●… , & 〈◊〉 tagio crimi●… discod●… . Cypr. 〈◊〉 de U●…tat . Eccl●… THis is another Marke , truelie , The Church must haue VNITIE : As our Saviour hath fore-tolde , One Shepheard , and one Sheep-folde : One is my Spouse , one is my Loue ; One is my Darling , and my Doue . This is His House , and , at some-tyme , Hee doth resemble it to a Vine : HIS Father is the Husband-man ; A Branch is everie Christian. This is HIS Bodie mysticall , The which HEE doth HIS Kingdome call , Where-of Saynct Peter had the Keyes , And his Successours haue all-wayes . This is the Pillar , and the Ground , Where-in all Trueth is to bee found . So , lyke-wyse , Saynct Paul sayeth , One Baptisme , and one Fayth , And , one LORD IESU ; Haue no Dissention amongst you . Shew mee anie Companie , That in all Poyntes doe agree : Except the Holie Church of Rome , Then will I bee converted soone . Eubulus .

That which , as I thinke , I haue evinced , of all your Man 's former Marks , I affirme , of this also ; That , it is , impertinentlie , yea , falselie , produced , for a proper Marke of the Church : in so farre , as it is a common condition of manie thinges , yea , all thinges that are , ( hoc ipso quod sunt , anum sunt ) even in that they are , they are , in that same , one ; as all Schooles acknowledge . The Devils are vnited ; for , Satan's Kingdome is not divided against it selfe : And , Briggands , ●… . 25. ●… . 14. banded to robbe , and sheede Blood , are one . So , as still , you see , that your Man's mayne Proposition , of his mayne Argument , is vayne , and sophisticall . Neyther will VNITIE , in all poynts , ever conclude more of the Church of CHRIST , than of the Antichristian bodie , except VNITIE , in all poynts , be modified : and , of an indefinite VNITIE , it be defined , an VNITIE , in all poynts , of Trueth . To which , only demonstratiue Marke , ( as I haue shewed of all the former ; ) so , this of VNITIE , must bee reduced also , if there-on , you would builde anie sure Conclusion . For , of the Antichristian Companie , the holie Ghost , hath in playne Tearmes , fore-tolde , These haue one mynde , and shall giue their power , and authoritie , to the verse . ●… . Beast : and a little after , For GOD hath put in their Hearts , to fulfill his will ; and to doe , with one consent , for to giue their Kingdomes to the Beast , vntill the wordes of GOD bee fulfilled . And , this is , indeede , that VNITIE , where-of your Men , so much glorie , even a Conspiracie in Errour , and no true VNITIE in Trueth ; as their manifolde , and shamelesse Shiftings , ( in a cleare evidence , of a selfe-accusing-guiltinesse ) from subduing their doctrine , to just examination , by Scripture , the sole Rule of Veritie , make more than manifest . Now , Satan never yet envyed VNITIE , in Errour : or , ZEALE , in Superstition .

Philomathes .

Well : to let this goe with you , of VNITIE , which you haue , indeede , evinced , of the former : that it is no proper Marke : yet , as I sayde , and you also admitted of the others : so , you can not denye , of VNITIE , but that it is a true Attribute of the Church : and , that , therefore , our Man's Argument , for the Church of Rome , concludeth verie clearlie , thus :

The Church of CHRIST , must bee a Companie , keeping Vnitie , in all Poynts .

But , onlie , of all Companies , the Church of Rome , keepeth Vnitie , in all Poynts .

There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the onelie true Church of CHRIST .

Eubulus .

I will not quarrell the forme of your Syllogisme , II. for that your Assumption , hath the nature of a negatiue Position . I say , your Proposition is sophisticall ; and , your Assumption , shameleslie , false : where-by , your Conclusion commeth to nought . As for the Proposition , though you shold modifie your indefinite , all Poynts , to definitlie , all Poynts , of Trueth : yet hath it in-folded a deepe Deceit . For , if it bee vnderstood , of All Poyntes of Trueth , so absolutelie , as , who keepe not Vnitie , in all , and everie poynt there-of , bee excluded from the Title of CHRIST HIS Church : then is your Proposition perniciouslie false . And , your Man would but , fraudule●…tlie , put foorth a bloodie Table of Proscription , where-by , cruellie , to forfault manie good Christian , and Church , from the Communion of the Bodie , even by a deceitfull confounding , of what-so-ever poyntes of Trueth , and , what-so-ever degrees of Division , or Dissention : which must bee wyselie , and carefullie , distinguished . For , there bee manie poynts of Trueth , wherein diversitie of judgement , breaketh not the Vnitie of the Church : Yea , and manie Divisions , and Dissentions , which , yet , divyde not the dissenting Members , one from another : or , if one from another , yet , neyther of them from the Head , or common Bodie ; from which those , onlie , may bee sayde , absolutelie , to fall , which holde not the Head , or , subvert , directlie , and with pertinacie , the Foundation . For , manie , in weaknesse , will holde Opinions , which , in-deede , doe even choppe agaynst the Foundation , by cleare , and necessarie Consequence ; but not immediatelie , or directlie . So , as , if you should challenge the Holders , of that which their opinion doth import , they wil not only deny it , but even abhorre the sequele of that which they mayntayne , but not with that mynde . And , it were great want of Charitie , to judge a-lyke of these , and of the others . Wee are all , heere , still , compassed with Infirmitie ; knowing , but in part , and , prophecying , but in part . In which Case , the Apostle , charitablie , advyseth , That , Who are perfect , they bee so mynded : and , if anie bee other-wayes mynded , that the LORD 5. will reveale it vnto them : but that , in the tyme , in that where-to wee are come , wee ought to proceede , by one Rule , mynding the same thinges . I confesse , & manie hundreths doe regrate it , with Teares , That the Infirmitie of Mens myndes , too farre in selfe-wiening , wedded to their owne Sense , and , not humblie receiving Information , or , charitablie comporting , with weake Brethren , ( according to the Apostle's Rule ) both hath bred , and still breedeth , too manie bitter , and vnnecessarie Distractions , and scandalous Schismes ; about such thinges , as , if Humilitie , and Loue , had over-ruled Mens Affections , neyther were , nor are , of such Moment , where-fore the Vnitie of Men , holding still one , and the same Head , and , keeping one , and the same Foundation , should bee so lightlie broken , or , the Peace of GOD His House troubled : But , the weaknesse , and , not duelie-mortified Humours of Men , maketh not the Trueth of GOD to fayle . That Dissentions , and Divisions are , it declareth Men , to bee , yet , in that part , carnall : but , it doeth not separate them , from the common Bodie , so long as they holde one , and the same LORD , one Fayth , one Hope , one Baptisme , and are vnited in one , and the same Spirit : no more , than did this Defect , in the Church of Corinth ; which , al-be-it , that , heere-fore , the Apostle did rebuke , as carnall , ●…h. 3. 1. in that ; yet , hee still did intitle , with the Name of CHRIST His Church . And , though , by anie such Schisme , eyther a Person , or Companie , should bee divided , from particular , eyther Church or Churches ; it will not , therefore , follow , ( & I thinke , none dare avouch it ) that , there-fore , they are separated from the Head , or common Bodie : so , to make them in a-lyke Case , with haereticall Subverters of the Foundation , and , Deserters of the Head . Wee see , by Experience , in naturall Bodies , That , by inflicted Woundes , such Gaps will bee made , as the sides of the Wound , eyther from other , will start a-sunder : and , so , one part of the Bodie , by a separating Wound , will be severed from another part : which , both , will yet remayne still vnited in the common Bodie , and , bee part-takers of one , and the same common Sense , Motion , and Lyfe , from one , and the same Head , and Heart . Thus ( Philomathes ) your Poet's Proposition , absolutelie affirmed , is false ; even when hee hath modified his indefinite , All Poynts , to all Poynts , of Trueth .

Philomathes .

That no Vnitie argueth anie Companie , to bee CHRIST'S Church , but Vnitie in Trueth , I must needs confesse it : and , that everie diversitie of opinion , or everie degree of Distraction , doth not separate the dissenters , or distracted , mutuallie from other ; or , at least , eyther of them from the common Bodie , and Head , I cannot denye , but that you haue evinced it clearlie . Yet , so manie , and so materiall , are the Divisions amongst your Churches , and your Quarrels are debated so bitterlie : and , againe , so great is the Harmonie , and Concord , of the Romish Church , as , I thinke , giveth just Reason , to suspect of you , that you are not , nor can not , bee vnited , as you spake , in one , and the same LORD , Fayth , Hope , Baptisme , and Spirit : and , that the Church of Rome , hath onlie , and evidentlie , this Honour .

Eubulus .

Now , ( Philomathes ) you put the Lyfe of your III. Syllogisme , in the Hands of your Assumption , to stand , or fall , there-with . And , denying vs anie such Vnitie , as may argue a Church of CHRIST , you haue appropriated all to Rome , how justlie , we will , even now , examine : and , first , your Objection against vs , is , manie wayes sophisticall . First , if such bee accounted ours , who are none of vs , the imputation is vnjust . Wee acknowledge , and doe lament it , that there is too great Division , and varietie of Sects , calling themselues Christians , in the worlde : but , what doe most part of them , more , or so much concerne vs , as they concerne your Church of Rome ? out of whose dongue , as noysome Flees , they are bred : and by Satan's craft , comming to fly on , vpon our Churches , ( that by the mixture of their Poyson , they may bring the Trueth in disgrace ) are onlie , by vs diligentlie resisted , and their Errours clearlie convinced : while , in the meane tyme , your Romish Church , ( whose brood they are ) is carelesse of anie thing , but to suppresse the Trueth ; and , calumniouslie , to lay over , on vs , the Stinke of their owne Excrements . As for such , whom we will not disadvow , in common , ( how-so-ever wee will not justifie the Ambition , Giddinesse , and bitternesse of some particular Men , who , as fyre-brands , disturbe , humurouslie , and vnnecessarilie , the Peace of the Church ) I affirme , that no such materiall Poynts are in differ betwixt vs , in common , wherefore , wee , both , may not , and ought not , embrace others , mutuallie , as Brethren . Which , that wee doe not , it is our weaknesse , and the malicious worke , of but a few evil-inspired Instruments ; seeking more their owne Estimation , than GOD his Glorie , and good of His Church . And , that no such Separation is betwixt vs , but that , how-so-ever , by a cruell Wound , of mercilesse Hands , wee are separated , one of vs , from another ; yet wee are still joyned in the common Head , and in the common Bodie , each of vs to other . So , as your Man 's odious enumeration of Protestants , Puritanes , Calvinists , Zwinglians , and , if you list , to adde to them , Lutheranes , also , is but a calumnious traducing , of such , as , most part , are not separated eyther from other : or at least , how-so-ever , by some weaknesse , they bee in that sort distracted , yet , are but one Bodie , joyned in one , and the same LORD , Fayth , Hope , Baptisme ; and informed , all of them , by one and the same Spirit , al-be-it not all , in a-lyke measure . Amongst whom , there is no just breach of Communion : how-so-ever , that , by a Wound , of some cruell and dispitefull Men , those you doe call Lutherians , are , vnnecessarilie , separated from the rest : but , none of vs , from the common Head , and Bodie , in which we are still vnited , and will be yet more & more nearlie : our Concord , in GOD , and His Trueth , growing , as your Vnitie , in Evill , shall be broken off : the will of GOD being fulfilled , in all the worke of Antichrist's deceit , justlie vpon the Worlde , for contempt of His Trueth . And , thus ( Philomathes ) your Assumption , where-by you denye vs anie such Vnitie , as , of necessitie , is requyred in the Church of CHRIST , for keeping , justlie , that Account , is false . And , no lesse false is it , al-so , in that , what you would robbe vs of , you doe appropriate to Rome : which can not bee , truelie , praysed for anie Vnitie , except that which before I mentioned , out of the seaventeenth Chapter of the REVELATION , which is the onlie Vnitie proper vnto her , and , accordinglie , there fore-tolde of her . For , other-wayes , shee hath fallen away , foulie , both from the Head , and the Foundation : and , can never bee sayde , to haue keeped Vnitie with the true Bodie ; other-wayes , than the accressing Sore , or Apostume in the Bodie , but not of it , may bee sayde , to bee one with the Bodie . And , your Man bewrayeth , verie well , howe poorelie provyded hee is , of anie sure probation of his Vnitie : when , for all Argument , where-by to evince an Vnion , in one LORD , one Fayth , one Hope , one Baptisme , and one true , and sanctifying Spirit , hee is not ashamed , impudentlie , to take that , which is the verie mayne poynt in question . Whither , I pray you , did his Poëticke Furie transport him ; when , without blushing , to sustayne his Assumption , on which all the lyfe of his Cause depended , hee brought this onlie , and goodlie , Argument ?

That Church , onlie , keepeth Vnitie , in all poynts , which cleaveth to the Pope .

But , the Church of Rome , onelie , cleaveth to the Pope .

There-fore , the Church of Rome , onlie , keepeth Vnitie , in all poynts .

The Proposition of this his Demonstration , he prooveth , by this ; That the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heaven , were given to Peter . But the Pope is Peter's Successour . Ergo , doe you requyre mee , ( Philomathes ) to make anie aunswere to these your Man his Raveries ? Or , if hee had beene set , of verie purpose , to play the Praevaricator in the Cause , which hee pleadeth ; could hee more ridiculouslie , I will not say , haue reasoned , but raved : Wee neyther deny , nor envy your Church , her Vnitie with the Pope ; al-be-it , in christian Compassion , wee pittie it . But , wee deny , your Mischiefe to haue anie Vnion , eyther with the Head , Foundation , or Bodie , except as a Sore in it , but not of it . And , to cleare yet farder , the falsehood of your Man's mayne Assumption , of Vnitie , ( That the Church of Rome , keepeth Vnitie in all poynts ) and how vayne hee is , in vaunting there-of : if your Poet had as carefullie picked out the Partialities of his Romish Church , ( even in this their damnable and cursed conspiracie ) as hee hath , with a perverse mynde , and poysonable Eye , pryed in our Distractions : What great matter , of Insulting , hath hee , or anie of his profession , against our Churches , for any Division , betwixt vs , and these whom they doe call LVTHERIANS ? If he were as powerfull a Peace-maker , as he prooveth an impertinent Pratler , he might haue found , at Home , to worke vpon , not only great Dissentions , but even as bitter , and materiall , Digladiations , as anie is amongst vs . When al our Controversie , amongst our selues , about the manner of Presence , and participation of CHRIST , in the sacred Supper , is duelie weighed ; what shall bee found , there-in , comparable to the manyfolde Debates , amongst your Schoolemen , about the manner of their prodigious TRANSSVBSTANTIATION ? whence , as from an horrible Hydra , so manie monstruouslie diverse Heads haue sprung vp , in their Schooles , as never will bee reconciled , till Fyre , from Heaven , burne vp all that intoxicated Bodie . When your Poët shall put at one , the Scotists , and Thomists ; the Franciscanes , and Domicians ; the Schoole-men , and the Canonists ; their other Clergie , and the Iesuists ; when Blacke-well , and Bellarmine , shall accord , vpon that mayne Poynt , of the Pope's Supremacie : ( which , to belieue , and that both , In temporalibus , & spiritualibus is , de necessitate salutis : that is , Necessarie to Salvation , sayeth the one partie ) then might hee , with the more credite , praesume , to taxe our Distractions : Loripedem rectus derideat , Aethiopem albus . Now , then , your Man's Proposition , of his mayne Syllogisme , of VNITIE , beeing sophisticall , and , his Assumption , clearlie false ; he will hardlie , I trow , vpon such Antecedents , conclude well , that the Church of Rome , is the onlie true Church of CHRIST .

Philadelphus .

You haue admitted the Church of Rome an VNITIE ; but , such , as where-in they haue neyther anie matter of Glorying ; and are , but even scarse , well vnited in that same sacrilegious Societie .

Who are vnited , onlie , but in Evill , And , scarselie well are in that same compacted ; Lesse may they glorie , than their Guyde the Devill , Whose Kingdome is not , in it selfe , distracted . Killers , and Rogues , are , in a Course , contracted . That Concord , onlie , comes to bee commended , When vncorrupt Companions , vncoacted , For Trueth , and truelie , are to-gether bended , In Unitie , which is not thus defyned , Fiends , Robbers , Killers , may bee close combyned . Philomathes .

As Eubulus in doing his best , to take from our Poët , the prayse of a deepe Divine ; so , I perceiue , ( Philadelphus ) that you mynde not to permit him the Monopolie of the MVSES . But , now , it resteth , to speake of the Note of HOLINESSE : and , I much muze , ( Eubulus ) if , as of all the former , so you will affirme of this al-so , That it is no proper Marke . For , I am sure , that to nothing vnder Heaven , doeth the propertie of HOLINESSE conveane , but to the Church of CHRIST onlie . And , agayne , ( according to the Law you alleadged of Propers ) that what-so-ever Men are holie , they must bee of the Church of CHRIST : for , Holinesse becommeth His House .

Philadelphus .

The Prophet ELISHA , beeing consulted by 2. Kings . 3. 1●… great Personages , and vpon great Poynts , called for a Minstrell . And , mine Advyse were , ( Eubulus ) before you aunswere to this Marke of HOLINESSE , that , even for refreshing of our Spirites , a little , 〈◊〉 heare their Man's Melodie , vpon that poynt .

Eriphilus .

As your Myndes are mistuned , you may , perhaps , finde your selues , nor greatlie cheared there-with . For , how-so-ever , Eubulus , lyke a slipperie Eele , by subtilties of Distinctions , hath slidden thorow all our preceeding Marks ; yet , as Philomathes , hath rightlie sayde , I hope , HOLYNESSE , is such a sure one , as you can not deny ; except , you would once , and in this one Poynt , prooue true Men , even to professe your selues , a prophane Companie .

Eubulus .

What-so-ever a propertie wee shall finde HOLINESSE to bee , yet , ( Eriphilus ) I take bitter Passion , to bee no proper Poynt of it . And , therefore , what-so-ever your Man's Musicke , might worke in vs ; yet , shall it not , incontinentlie , come praesentlie in place , for mitigating , of your owne Cholericke Motions , by some greater Sympathie : which , perhaps , it shall finde in you , than it can waken , vp , in our ( as you call them ) mistuned Myndes . Therefore , Philomathes , bring out your Cure quicklie , for succouring of your Companion .

Philomathes .

In-deede , the consideration of HOLINESSE , would requyre , a calme Constitution . And these are our Man's Verses there-of .

CHAPTER VII . HOLYNESSE . THIS you say , in verie deede , ltiwne who ●…nge ●… . ●… a 〈◊〉 de ●… When you rehearse the Nicene Creede ; One Church Catholicke , Holie , and Apostolicke . This is another Marke , truelie ; The Church must bee holie : Holie Men , holie Service , Ceremonies , and Sacrifice , Sacramentes , and holie Dayes , Are observed in her al-wayes . As for the Sayncts , and Martyres all ; And Virgines , which you Saynctes doe call : Whose Names are in your Kalendar , When lived they , and where ? In what Religion was it they died ? By whom were they Canonized ? If it were not the Church of Rome , Then shall I bee converted soone . If they were not your Companie , Then is your Fayth , an Haeresie . Philadelphus .

I am , against both your Wish , and Expectation , ( Eriphilus ) so farre cheared with your man's Poësie ; as , if it may not trouble your cheare , I would aske , even chearfullie , of you ; why hee hath passed by the Apostolicke Creede , ( which , with some more credite , hee might haue cited ; and , where-in , hee might haue found , al-so , the propertie of HOLYNESSE ) to alleadge the Nicene ? for , if hee thought , that this word [ Apostolicke ] would haue marred his Metre , by making his Lyne a foot longer : yet , the shortnesse of his immediatelie , subsequent verses , might haue recompensed that slippe : neyther hath hee beene , in the rest of this Ryme , so squimmish , as to stand too praeciselie , on footes ; or , halfe footes .

Eubulus .

Wee will let this passe , ( Philadelphus : ) for as I I●… protested before , I am not to insist , in taxing all his absurdities , no , not in the Matter , much lesse in his Metre , which is lesse materiall , I come to speake of this Marke of Holinesse : and , before I enter to examine the Man's Logicke , I will yeelde this much , That , this once , hee hath fallen on a true Propertie of the Church of CHRIST : yea , and I will grant thus much more , That al-be-it all properties be not Marks , ( because more is requyred for being a proper Marke , than onlie to bee a proper Attribute ) yet , that Holinesse is even a proper Marke of CHRIST His Church ; but , where-in the Church of Rome , hath as litle , and lesse advantage , than in anie of the former . And , for clearing of this , ( Philomathes ) I must , first , put out your Man , from the Lurking-denne of Aequivocation , where-in your Doctours delight to lye ; and , thence , to shoote at the Innocent , in secret . For , if , by Holinesse , bee meaned , that sanctified Disposition of the Soule , and Affections , by the Spirit of Regeneration , wrought in all true Christians ; in that Sense , it can bee no Marke , because GOD , onlie , knoweth the Hearts of Men. And , wee concluded , before , with consent of Bellarmine , That all Markes must , of necessitie , fall vnder Sense . And , agayne , if by Holynesse , bee meaned , that which is seene , and exposed to perception , in Mens outward carriage , according to the Law of Righteousnesse , in Manners , and common conversation ; neyther , thus , can it be a proper Marke of CHRIST HIS true Church . For , that , by the restrayning Vertue of GOD HIS Spirite of Administration , even Heathen men , and Infideles , will appeare , in all morall Vertues , matcheable to Christians ; except , that wee know , that what-so-ever is not of Fayth , is sinne . Was not Paul vnrebukeable , as concerning the Law ; while , yet , hee was not onlie no Believer , but even a cruell Persecuter al-so ?

Philomathes .

How-so-ever outward Righteousnesse may not bee a sure Marke of Men , considered absolutelie ; for that fayre carriage , which by the restrayning Vertue of the Spirit of Administration , will bee even in Heathen men : yet , ( as you did , in short wordes , make answere to your selfe ) that what is not of Fayth , is sinne ; and , that , there-fore , no Heathen conversation , how approoved so-ever , can be counted for true Holynesse : So , amongst Professours of Christianitie , I thinke , that Holynesse in lyfe and manners , must bee a most sure discerning Mark , wherby to know the true Church , as which must , in them , bee praesumed , to proceede of Fayth . And wee are a-searching of such Notes , as in the communitie of Christians , all acclayming the Title of the Church , may discerne the Vpright , from the Bastard , in that same kynde . So , as your Objection , of Heathen carriage , in this case , is clearlie the same Sophisme , which , you may remember , that , before , you taxed in our Men.

Eubulus .

Doe you not knowe , ( Philomathes ) that , II. even amongst Professoures , not only will Hypocrites , in all these Outwardes , appeare to goe farre beyonde , even the moste sincere , and single-hearted Christians ; but , even superstitious , and corrupt worshippers , yet in a blynde zeale , will seeme to keepe more preciselie , the waye of HOLINESSE , and RIGHTEOVSNESSE , than who haue more , and truer Light ?

And if no more were to leade you , to knowe , that HOLINESSE , in this kynde , can bee no Marke , this , alone , might tell it you ; That your owne Men , all-wayes , in their Disputes with vs , about the true Church , Doctrine , and Worship , doe reject , ( and that justlie ) all Argumentes brought by vs , agaynst anie persons , or personall actions of Men. How-so-ever , agayne , in charging vs , they doe forget them-selues , so farre , as , all-wayes , to fall to personall , and , those , impudentlie false , and vnjust Criminations . So , as you may see , that , of necessitie , this Marke of HOLINESSE , must bee vnderstoode of an holie , and lawfull Worship , and holie , and pure Doctrine . And , al-be-it I confesse , that this can never bee anie-where , but , that , there-with , al-so , shall bee some number of Names , both inwardlie sanctified , by the Worde , and Spirite , and , al-so , showing foorth their Fayth , by their workes : yet , it is the HOLINESSE of Doctrine , and lawfull , and pure Worship , which is the proper Marke of the true Church : and , not eyther the inward Sanctification of the Soule , which we see not : or , the onlie outward Manners , where-in wee may bee deceived .

of your Man's Argument , I will nowe set it before you , that you may see the Force there-of :

That Companie , which , onlie , hath in it holie Men , holie Service , Ceremonies , Sacrifice , Sacraments , Dayes , &c. must bee the Church of GOD. But , in the Church of Rome , onelie , these are to bee found . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is the onelie Church of GOD.

Now , to grant his Proposition , or Major , in such Sense , as where-in I haue , all-readie , cleared , and you , all-so , ( Philomathes ) haue confessed , That , onlie , it can consist . I denye his Assumption , or Minor , as which is shameleslie false : except , by the onelie , sure , and layde-downe Rule , hee prooue it .

Philadelphus .

You must attende ( Eubulus ) the Probation of his Assumption , in the next Proper Ballad , that happeneth to breake out of the Super-aboundance of his Poēticall Veyne : and , suspende his Conclusion , till then . And , that , in the tyme , hee may , the more seriouslie , set himselfe for it ; what , if from his owne Groundes , where-of hee glorieth , one should drawe this contrarie Conclusion ?

That Companie , which hath turned all the Worship of GOD , ( Who will bee worshipped , in Spirit , and Trueth ) in a prophane Histrionicke Farce : which teacheth , for Doctrines , the Traditions of Men' : which burdeneth the Consciences of Christians , ( whom their Lord will haue to be free , saith Augustine ) with innumerable ydle , & superstitious Ceremonies , of Mans invention ; in the multitude whereof , all true Religion , is not onlie buried , but , al-so , lost : Which , after that perfect Sacrifice , which CHRIST offered , once for all , offereth still Expiatorie Sacrifices , for Sinne : Which devyseth Sacramentes of their owne , which they haue not received from the LORD : Which , superstitiouslie , keepe Dayes , and Tymes : Which set vp Saynctes departed , and erect Images , to bee worshipped , with Religious Adoration : Who , glorying of Fathers , and Martyres , are , them-selues , Persecuters , and Murderers of the Sayncts : That Companie can not bee the Church of CHRIST ; but is , vndoubtedlie , The Antichristian Synagogue . But , such is the Church of Rome . There-fore , the Church of Rome , is not the true Church of CHRIST , but is , The Antichristian Synagogue .

Now , as your Man 's stout Asseveration , of holie Service , Ceremonies , Sacrifice , Sacraments , Dayes , &c. will not exeeme your Church from the Stayne of this Conclusion ; except you try , & verifie them to be such , by that onlie Touch-stone , which , in anie case , you desyre never to bee touched : so will his vayne Acclaiming of all the Sayncts , Martyres , and Virgines , contayned in our Kalendar , and the pretended canonizing of them , much lesse helpe him . What they haue beene , who are contayned in our Kalendar , wee are not much curious to inquyre ; because wee holde it not for a Register of Sayncts , but for a civill Rule , where-by to calculate Tymes . And I praesume , that Ianus , Iulius , and Augustus , are none of the number written in Heaven , as , perhaps , no more are some others , who are written in the Kalendar ; whose Names , yet , in civill vse , may serue fitlie for Notes of Tymes . And I thinke , verilie , your Poet hath lost , both the Yeare of GOD , and Dominicall Letter , al-so , when hee is prooving Religion , from the Kalendar : which , wee esteemed , ever should bee cleared from Scripture . And , hee hath dipped his Mynde so deepelie in this Studie , as hee asketh , when , and where , they lived . But , foolish Man , it is neyther the ryme , when , nor the place where , anie Man , eyther liveth , or dieth , that maketh him a Christian. But , that third thing in his Question , which , onlie , for all ; except to multiplie Babling , hee should haue asked , namelie , in what Fayth they lived , and died ? And , then , wee answere , That , if they were Saynctes , indeede , they both lived , and died , in the same Fayth which wee holde ; and were even of our Companie : which Companie , is not defined by Tyme , when , or place where , but by the vnion of what-so-ever persones , in what-so-ever place , and of what-so-ever tyme , in one LORD , one Fayth , one Spirit , on Baptisme , &c. for all Sayncts are sanctified by the Trueth : and , Thy Word is Trueth , sayeth our Saviour . And , giving this , that all these Sayncts had beene , not onlie in the Companie of the Church of Rome , then , but , also , that they had beene of her Companie , ( for manie , even now , are in her Companie , which are not of it : Come out of her , my People , sayeth the Spirit ) and holding one , and the same Fayth , which Rome , at that tyme , helde : yet , as Eubulus hath now more than once tolde you , What will anie Prayse , or Praerogatiue of Rome , then , make for Rome , now , which is not now of the Companie of Rome , then ; but is the Synagogue of Satan ; where-as , Rome , of olde , was of our Companie ?

Eriphilus .

What ? ( Philadelphus ) will you make those , whom the Church of Rome hath Canonized , to bee of your Companie ? they were Canonized , I tell you , may Ages before Luther was borne .

Philadelphus .

Of their Canonizing , ( Eriphilus ) I will not , now , much dispute , whether it was farther , eyther to their honour , who were so Canonized ; or to theirs , who sacrilegiouslie praesume to rob GOD of His proper Honour , in making Sayncts : or to the reproach , and disgrace , of both . I am certaine , that whom GOD hath sanctified , hee is , and will bee , a Saynct , though the Pope , and all the Conclaue , had concluded the contrarie : and , whom GOD hath not sanctified , no power in the Worlde , can make holie . I say , that in this your glorying , of Canonizing Saynctes , you haue as valide an Argument , for the Church of Rome , as the building of the Prophets Tombes , and garnishing of their Sepulchres , was for the Iewes , ●…th , 23. 29. whose Fathers were Murderers of the Prophets , and them-selues , crucifiers of the LORD of Glorie . And our Fayth , ( Eriphilus ) was not borne , with Luther , no more , than your Heresie , was borne with you : but , our Fayth , is the same Fayth , where-by all Faythfull , in all Ages , and Places , ever lived : as yours is that same deceitfull Illusion , which , even in the Apostolicke tymes , Satan was a-hatching : and , which , having by slow degrees , mounted to so monstrous an height , is now , agayne , neare the dead-trach , to the Devil 's great displeasure .

Philomathes .

If EUBULUS , and I , shall giue over to you , PHILADELPHUS , and , to ERIPHILUS , the reasoning of this Matter , I feare , wee must provyde vs , some-where , of long Weapons , to goe betwixt you , so Satyricke are you , and so Cholericke is ERIPHILUS .

Philadelphus .

Verilie , ( Philomathes ) I mynde not to free Eubulus of that Taske , where-of hee can much better acquyte him-selfe , than I am able : and , if Eriphilus take my Counsell , hee shall beholde you all-so , to pleade your part . And , it is not so much anie Satyricke Speaches of myne , ( as it pleaseth you to call them ) which haue marred Eriphilus Mirth , as Eubulus sad Syllogismes ; whereby , hee hath so sacked all your Poët his proper Markes , as , how-so-ever , at first , rejecting my Sonnets , hee summoned vs to Syllogismes ; yet , I perceiue him , now , so surfeyted with them , that , in a compassion of his Cholericke Passion , I will yet , vouchsafe him one Sonnet , to swadge it ; where-in , hee shall not challenge one Satyricke Syllable .

Catholicke can not bee to Sense subdued : Continuance is but a common Case . Things Visible , are often-times vnviewed . What 's Unitie ; if it bee not in Grace ? Hypocrisie , some-tyme , ●…surpes the place Of Holynesse , if true Light bee not Leader . Who Flesh , for Spirit , who Shades , for Sooth , embrace : The more devote , more doting they 'r , and deader . Would'st thou stand stay'd , ' gaynst all , both Doubts & Dangers , Follow CHRIST'S Voyce , and flee the voyce of Strangers . Philomathes .

I knowe not , howe your Sonnet hath wrought on Eriphilus mynde : but , verilie , you haue made your worde good , in this , That in all your Sonnet , there is not one Sarcasticke Syllable : all-be-it it bee so full of Sentence , as you haue compryzed , in a short Summe , the Drift of all Eubulus Discourse , agaynst our Man's Markes . But , nowe , both the Day , and the Way , are shortening : and , wee haue , yet , one Poynt , to passe thorowe : namelie , of HAERETICKES . You haue beene so difficill , ( Eubulus ) to graunt vs the Title of the true Church , and haue so farre set at naught all our Notes : as , I would gladlie heare , how you will cleare your owne Churches , from this imputation of HAERESIE , which our Man , heere , at great length , layeth agaynst you .

Eubulus .

If hee could haue prooved his power in anie V. thing , hee would , chiefelie , haue imployed it , for the credite of his owne Church , and Cause . Where-in , if hee had prevayled , hee should , with one , and the same travell , haue over-throwne vs , all-so . As , accordinglie , you see , howe , in all his alleadged Markes , hee laboureth , to appropriate them so to Rome , ( and , there-vpon , to conclude of her , That shee is the true Church ) that , there-with , all-so , by a Consequence , in his Conceit , cleare anough , our Churches , as defectiue , were condemned by him . And , in-deede , if hee could possiblie haue well instructed the one , wee had the lesse place to pleade agaynst the other . For Romes Iustification , should , sufficientlie , convince vs ; lyke as the justifying of our Churches , showeth her to bee Satan's Synagogue . But , if I haue made him to bee seene a weake Souldiour , for him-selfe , it may well bee praesumed , that hee will prooue no great Masteries agaynst vs ; how-so-ever hee assayleth vs , with an Armie of Interrogatours ; if so bee , that by the hudgenesse of the number , in common , the particular imbecillitie , of each severallie , might bee supplyed . And , to manifest this vnto you , ( Philomathes ) in all his Ryme , ( inscrybed HAERETICKS ) hee racketh his Ingyne , to prooue our Churches , to bee haereticall , even by this mayne Argument :

To whome the Notes of Haeretickes , doe , properlie , conveane : and , in whome manyfolde Defectes are found , which can not befall the true Church : they must , of necessitie , bee haereticall .

But , to the Protestant Churches , the Notes of Haereticks doe , properlie , conveane : and , manyfold Defects , which can not befall the true Church .

There-fore , the Protestant Churches , are haereticall .

The Major of this Syllogisme , is so clearlie true , as it can not bee gayne-sayde . Howe hee prooveth his Minor , wee will trye , GOD willing , when you haue read vnto vs his Verses there-on . And , first , concerning the first poynt of haereticall properties , to which I will , first , make aunswere : and , there-after , with no great a-doe , wee will over-turne all his Interrogatours , of those Defectes , which hee would father vpon our Churches .

Philomathes .

Then , take heede , howe hee descrybeth you .

CHAPTER VIII . HAERETICKES . OVR Saviour warnes vs , to haue care , Of false Prophets to beware , That in His Name should come : Not sent , yet they would runne : Thieues , not entring by the Doore , That kill , and steale , and keepe a-store : Wolues , in Sheepes cloathing , To kill Soules , and steale the Teaching : Thistles , Thornes , corrupted Ground , On whom no good Fruit is found : Living after their Lusts , truelie ; Whose god is their owne Bellie : Dogges , Foxes , and Masters of Lies , That new Sects will devyse ; Bringing in Dissention , And heape to them-selues Perdition . These Markes agree with you , More than the Pagane , Turke , or Iew : For they denye the Name of CHRIST , And counterfeyt no Christian Priest . Eubulus .

Stay there , Philomathes : for in these Verses , is ●… the probation of that first poynt of his Assumption , whereby the Notes of Haeretickes are affirmed of vs : and , now , I pray you , advert a deadlie Demonstration , where-by you sayde , jestinglie , that hee descrybeth vs :

Those Marks , given vs , to discerne Haeretickes , conveane but to such as professe the Name , and Worship , of CHRIST .

But , you Protestants , professe the Name , and Worship ▪ of CHRIST .

Therefore , these Markes conveane to you : and , consequentlie , you are Haeretickes .

Now , how Cholericke so-ever you take Eriphilus to bee in this Cause ; yet , I will even admit him Iudge , of this sad Syllogisme , where-by your Poet will prooue vs Haeretickes . Would you allow mee , ( Eriphilus ) to conclude your Ballader , a barking Dog , thus ? Barking can conveane , but to living , and sensitiue Creatures : but , your Ballader , is a living , and sensitiue Creature : therefore , barking conveaneth to him ; and , consequentlie , hee is a Dog .

Eriphilus .

Hee is verie skillesse in Logicke , who knoweth not , that of miere Affirmatiues , in the second figure , no thing can conclude . And , you but skornfullie afforge to our Man , so senselesse a manner of Argumentation .

Eubulus .

I am content ( Eriphilus ) it be esteemed so of me ; I if , bending there-to all your Skill in Logicke , you shall bee able , out of your Man's Verses , to frame anie other forme of Conclusion , than that , which you say , I haue afforged vnto him . This is the summe of his last read Verses ; Such , and such , are the Notes of Haeretickes : which Notes , conveane , onlie , to Men professing CHRIST ; for , to Iewes , Turkes , and Paganes , who denye His Name , they can not bee competent . But , you , Protestantes , professe the Name of CHRIST : and , there-fore , &c.

Philomathes .

Verilie , ( Eriphilus ) I feare , that both our Skills , in Logicke , shall , hardlie , finde out a better forme of our Man's wordes : where-in Eubulus hath so opened a chyldish over-sight , as I can not find , wel , a Vayle to cover it .

Eriphilus .

At worst , it is but a fault in forme ; which , in a well-consisting matter , may bee soone mended . II

Eubulus .

But , I pray you , ( good Eriphilus ) though you had a Syllogisme , at your owne shaping , will you ever finde matter , where-of to make it , or , vs Haeretickes , by it ; in this , that we professe CHRISTIANITIE ? or , putting it even to the Racke , will it afforde anie reason , where-fore to bynde on vs , the Notes of Haeretickes , more than on the Church of Rome , which professeth the Name , & Worship , of CHRIST , all-so ? Except you will bee allowed , to reply , as one of your Profession , one day , disputing with mee , of Antichrist , ( when I propounded an Argument , where-by I concluded , that of the Pope ; in place of resuming the partes of my Reason ) aunswered mee confusedlie , and confidentlie , That , finde him out , as wee could , otherwayes , the Pope could not , possiblie , bee once suspected to bee Antichrist , for hee is CHRIST HIS Vicar . Shall wee bee counted Haeretickes , ( Eriphilus ) onelie , because it pleaseth your Poet , so to call vs ? To whome these Notes doe most fitlie agree , let the rightlie-illuminated , judge : and , Hee will judge one day , who judgeth righteouslie , and , whose is all judgement . Wee passe verie little , to bee judged by your Man : yea , wee judge not our selues .

Philadelphus .

You are too sharpe sighted , ( Eubulus : ) hee hath thought , that vnder the sweetnesse of Poesie , such a slippe in Logicke , might haue easilie beene concealed .

Eubulus .

That might haue beene praesumed of Syrens , singing IV. vnto Swyne . But , to leaue the Man , with his owne Logicke ; I would demaund of you , ( Philomathes ) why , in so long an Enumeration of haereticall Notes , hee hath passed over those , where-by the holie Ghost witnesseth , that Haeretickes , and of this tyme , may bee moste clearlie knowne ? And , what a Conscience doeth it argue , to amasse a number , where-of the application may breede but jangling ; and , to keepe silence , of the moste notifying Notes of all ?

Philadelphus .

You still mistake the Man , ( Eubulus : ) Charitie beginneth at ones selfe : and , accordinglie , their Poet is so full of Selfe-loue , as hee never mynded to produce ought , where-by to praejudge his owne cause .

Philomathes .

But , what are those Notes , ( Eubulus ) with the fraudulent omission , where-of you doe charge our Man ?

Eubulus .

I will essay , by a more formall Syllogisme , than V. hee framed agaynst vs , to leade you both to know them , and to acknowledge of them , that they so nearlie touch your Romish Church , as might make your Man thinke , they were no Wares , for him to exhibite :

What Companie teacheth Doctrines of Devils , and , by Devilish Dealing , doe verifie them-selues , to bee Satan's Children ; that Companie must bee Haereticall .

But , the Church of Rome , teacheth Doctrines of Devils , and , by Devilish Dealing , doe verifie them-selues to bee Satan's Children .

There-fore , the Church of Rome , is an Haereticall Companie .

Philomathes .

In-deede , ( Eubulus ) your Syllogisme hath a better forme , but a much badder matter .

Eubulus .

And if I make the matter , as good as the forme , ●… then all shall holde good ; where-in , yet , ( that I may bee charitablie conceived ) I meane by the Church of Rome , ( as I haue , now more than once signified ) the Evill in the Bodie , not , absolutelie , the Bodie affected there-with : the Papalitie , not all , who are named Papists : not all , who haue the Name , or Number of the Beast , but who haue his Character .

Philomathes .

If , even thus , you make your matter good , wee haue lost a Gayne .

Eubulus .

Then , let vs examine the partes of mine Argument . V●… I hope you will admit my Major .

Philomathes .

It can not bee denyed . It resteth you , to prooue your Minor .

Eubulus .

My Minor , or Assumption , chargeth Papalitie , VI●… or charactarized Papistes , with two maligning Markes ; Doctrines of Devils , and Devilish Dealing . I will , first , prooue the one , and then the other , also . That the Church of Rome , teacheth Devilish Doctrine , I prooue it thus :

Who forbid Marriage , and command to abstayne from Meates , which GOD hath ordayned to bee received with Thankes-giving , they teach Doctrines of Devils . But , the Church of Rome , forbiddeth Marriage , and commandeth , to abstayne from Meates , which GOD hath ordayned , to be received with Thanksgiving .

There-fore , the Church of Rome , teacheth Doctrines of Devils .

Philomathes .

The Major of your Argument , is from Paul , 1. Tim. 4. 3. and can not bee denyed . I distinguish your Minor : for , if you say , that the Church of Rome , eyther forbiddeth Marriage , absolutelie , and , as a thing , absolutelie , and in it selfe , damnable : or , commandeth , to abstayne from Meates , absolutelie , as from thinges , absolutelie , and in them-selues , vncleane ; ( which is the forbidding , and commanding meaned of the Apostle ) then is your Assumption false . But , that the Church of Rome , in some respects , and to some persons , forbiddeth Marriage ; and , in some respects , commandeth , to abstayne from some Meates , I doe not deny . But , this is not agaynst the Apostle his mynde ; who prophecied , in that place , of some ancient Haeretickes , in the Primitiue Church , who , absolutelie , damned Marriage , and diverse sorts of Meats , as , in them-selues , polluted .

Eubulus .

If so serious , and hazardous poynts , bee well , or IX . wyselie , put vpon the danger of so cavillatorie a Distinction , devysed by Men , I report mee to your owne Conscience : that , others , before , haue beene in the same sinne , and , perhaps , in some farder degree there-of ; what doeth that excuse the Romish Church ; which , in anie degree , praesumeth to forbid , and command that , the forbidding , and commanding where-of , the holie Ghost affirmeth , to bee Devilish ? Is not this to play , and that even perilouslie , in a serious matter ? The Church ( you say ) doeth not condemne Marriage : but , the Apostle maketh even the forbidders there-of , to bee Devilish Doctors . And , yet , if who are in the flesh , are , in that , to bee condemned , ( by the Apostle's Doctrine : ) how can you absolue your Romish Church , of condemning 〈◊〉 , ad Hime●… , cap. 7. Marriage ; when shee affirmeth , of married persones , That they are in the flesh ? Now , where you affirme , the Apostle , in that Prophesie , to haue eyed onlie the ancient Haeretickes , absolute condemners of Marriage , and Meates ; all circumstances of the place , evince , manyfestlie , that hee neyther eyed them onlie , nor principallie : but , that also , and principallie , the holie Ghost eyed your Church of Rome . I let this goe , that hee speaketh of the latter tymes , which yet ( I am perswaded ) hath a narrower relation , than that , where-by , I know , you will seeke to shift this poynt . Hee speaketh , there-with , of such , as , by great and cunning Hypocrisie , should haue so great place , as , by Authoritie , to forbid , and command . But , it is well knowne , that the ancient Haeretickes , mayntayners of these Doctrines , were , in their verie first out-setting , exsibilated , and abhorred , commonlie , of all : and , that , both they , and their Doctrine , soone evanished . So , as , it is playne , that so serious a warning of the Apostle , is chiefelie , in regard of more dangerous Doctours , and so farre , by Hypocrisie , obtayning place , and authoritie in the Church , as to come prowdlie to 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , ( interdicting , and commanding . ) And , thus , ( Philomathes ) all your distinction , of myne Assumption , is vayne , and cavillatorie : and , so , will never vindicate your Romish Church , from the guilt of my Conclusion .

Philomathes .

Verilie , all-bee-it I dare not condemne the Church , or suspect rashlie of her , in these , or anie such poyntes : yet , I will not deny , but that I could haue wished her , to haue beene lesse audacious , in so perilous a Case , and to haue given you lesse advantage agaynst her heere-in . But , goe forwardes . You tooke , all-so , for to prooue , agaynst our Church , That , by Devilish Dealing , they verified them-selues , to bee Satan's Children ; which was the seconde poynt , of your mayne Assumption , agaynst vs .

Eubulus .

I prooue it , thus : X.

Who are Liars , and Murderers , like their father , the devill , their Dealing is Devilish ; and , they verifie themselues , there-by , to be the Devils Children .

But , the Church of Rome , are Liars , and Murderers , lyke their Father , the Devill .

There-fore , their Dealing is Devilish ; and , they verifie of them-selues , that they are Sathan his Children .

Eriphilus ,

Is this , for-sooth , the calme Conference you protested for ? And , are you the Man , that so farre abhorreth bitter Contention ; who falleth , thus , not onelie to Bitternesse , but even to open Reproaches , and impudent Rayling ? Did not you , in Disputation , about Poyntes of Doctrine , disallow all personall Criminations ? Where-in , to all , and anie Instances , which you can bring agaynst vs , when we haue opposed as manie , and as odious , on your side ; shall not all our Dispute , but finish in a foule Flyting ?

Eubulus .

I haue neyther , as yet , touched anie man his XI . person , or spoken of anie personall Action , of Lying , and Murdering ; neyther mynde I , by anie such Instances , to strengthen mine Assumption , howe manie , and howe tragicall so-ever , I might easilie produce , and those of recent Practise . So as , thus once agayne ( Eriphilus ) heate , hath made you too hastie . What-so-ever Instances you might oppose to mee , of our Men , in personall Recriminations ; yet , I am sure , that you shall never verifie of anie , on our side , that they teach , and , by publicke Bookes , mayntayne , That it is lawfull to lie , and to commit Murder . So , as , if I prooue , that your ROMANISTES , not onelie practize privilie , but , all-so , teach , yea , and mayntayne , openlie , That it is lawfull to lie , and murder , I hope , I shall make mine Assumption good ; and , yet , never a whit , there-fore , declyne from the course of a calme Conference , and Rules of a lawfull Disputation .

Eriphilus .

When you cleare so great a Calumnie , then shall I confesse my too great heat in an evill Cause .

Eubulus .

Will you not graunt mee , ( Eriphilus ) that , XII . who prayse the Arte of Simulation , and Dissimulation , to bee both good , and profitable , and , call it Prudence , and Vertue , yea , and a good Prudence : and affirme , That who vse it , are to bee praysed , those are Teachers , of Men , to become Liars ?

Eriphilus .

You will not , so easilie as you trow , get mee in-trapped , with your Interrogatours : for , there is some even Godlie and prudent Simulation .

Eubulus .

I mynde no such Circumvention , as you XIII feare , but moste playne Dealing , for gayning of you , more than my Poynt . And , to showe you howe farre I am , from entertayning impertinent Plea , I will not , now , question with you , about this , howe well anie Simulation may bee made to accord with Prudence , and Pietie . But , let the Instances , which I shall produce , beare witnesse , whether they bee such , as may escape vnder this your Sconse . As for the Position , which I haue brought , in all the Poyntes there-of , your owne Man , Martinus Navarrus Aspilcueta , ( who hath written a whole Treatise , of Aequivocations , in Favoures , as hee professeth , of the Iesuites , In Cap. humanae aures , 12. Quaest. 5. ) affirmeth playnleie , In d. Cap. humanae , Pag. 352. & Pag. 349. Et pag. 351.

Eriphilus .

You may , perhaps , wrong him , in this Imputation : But , and though anie one such Man hath written so , yet ought it not bee counted a common Fault of our CHVRCH . Howe manie of your Men , mayntayne Poyntes , which your CHVRCH , yet , disadvoweth in common ?

Eubulus .

If I doe wrong him , his Booke , and places XIV there-of , alleadged by mee , will witnesse . And , that his Doctrine , is a just Imputation , agaynst your Church , is cleare , by this ; That Pope Gregorie the thirteenth , approoved , and ratified his Doctrine , as ( Sanctam , & inconcussam ) holie , and stable . And , besides him , Gregorius de Valentia , a lesuit , Tom. 3. Disput. 5. Quaest. 13. de reo . punct. 2. calleth AEQVIVOCATION , ( Prudentem Defensionem ) a wyse Defence . The fore-named Navarrus , in d cap. humanae aures 22. Quaest. 5. Pag. 348. recordeth , and highlie prayseth an Aequivocation vsed by Saynct FRANCIS : who , beeing asked , by the Sergeantes , persuing after a Murder , If such a Murderer had passed that way ? did put his Handes , in his Gowne Slieues , and aunswered , That hee had not passed that way . Vnderstanding , with himselfe , contrarie to common perception , that hee had not passed thorowe his Slieues . And , the sayde Navarrus , addeth , even there , ( Hanc Doctrinam de Aequivocationibus , fundari in illo insigni facto magni illius Patriarchae FRANCISCI : ) that this Doctrine of Aequivocations , is founded , vpon that noble Fact , of that Great PATRIARCH , Saynct FRANCIS .

Philadelphus .

Besides that common dislyke , which al-most all the other Romane Clergie haue of Iesuites , I thinke , that the Cordeliers haue heere a proper Quarrell , and a most competent Plea , and Action , agaynst them : who thus take vnto them-selues , wrongfullie , the Craft of AEQVIVOCATION ; which , beeing founded on the noble Act of Saynct FRANCIS , should , with all reason , haue remayned the Propertie of his Familie : as , accordinglie , they were called , once , commonlie , LYING FRIERS : till , now , the Iesuites haue so farre encroached vpon this their Right , as that , how farre so-ever the Friers bee still set to mayntayne their Title , yet the Iesuites doe farre exceede them , in all the cunning kyndes of Aequivocation .

Eubulus .

It is an vnlucklie Debate , where-in the Victors XV. greatest Honour is , that , there-by , hee prooveth to bee the more neare sib vnto Satan . But , to prosecute my Matter ; The same Navarrus teacheth , that a person accused before a Iudge , who proceedeth not ( juridice ) lawfullie , is not holden to confesse the Trueth : but , may vse AEQVIVOCATION , mentallie reserving within him-selfe , some other thing , than his wordes doe sound : yea , eyther in Answere , or Oath , to his Iudge , or Superiour , that hee may vse a Bout-gate of Speach , ( Amphibologia ) whether through a diverse signification of the word , or through the diverse intention of the asker , and of him that maketh answere , and although it bee false , according to the meaning of the asker : in cap. Ne quis . can . 22. quaest. 2. The same Navarrus , instructeth a Witnesse , to depone , that hee knoweth nothing ; reserving this within him-selfe , no thing that hee is holden to tell . And , hee giveth the same instruction , to Pleaders , who are requyred to giue their Oathes , de calumnia , or , of Veritie , Pag. 151. Toletus , a Iesuit , and a Cardinall , teacheth these same healthsome Lessons , Instruct. sacerd. lib. 4. cap. 21. Iacobus Sylvanus , aliâs , Keller , Iesuit , teacheth the same , Philipp . contr. Anonymum , &c. pag. 5. Besides all these , ( Eriphilus ) doe they not teach men to bee Liars , who affirme , that no Oath given to an Haereticke , or Infidell , is to bee keeped ? And , yet , this was both inacted , and practized , in the Councell of Constance . Iacobus Simancha , Episcopus Pacensis , de Catholic ▪ institut ▪ cap. 46 , al-so avoucheth it . Conradus Brunus , de Haereticis , lib. 3. cap. 15 , determineth , that no Pactions , Conventions , Lawes , Confirmations , ( rescripta ) where-by Haeretickes obtayne Peace , and Securitie , ought to bee keeped , or counted of anie force , or effect . Now , if wilfull , and even purposed Perjurie , may bee counted Pietie ; and if such impudent instructions of disguysing Trueth , you esteeme a prudent Simulation , ( Eriphilus ) I thinke him pittifullie imprudent , who hath anie dealing with you .

Philomathes .

I beseech you , ( Eubulus ) no more of this . For my part , I never lyked of that Doctrine of Aequivocation : And , I thinke , verilie , that the Church hath beene evill beholden to those Men , what-so-ever they were , who haue brought that Blot vpon the Catholicke Fayth .

Eubulus .

Then , ( Philomathes ) of all others , the Church is XVI . worst beholden to the Pope , who hath approved , and confirmed , and yet still ●…hamelessie mayntayneth , that disgracefull Doctrine . And you , who see the Evill , are yet worse , than wo●…st of all , beholden to your-selues ; who , in so playnlie , a perceived Praevarication , yet suffer your selues to bee so sensleslie , and miserablie , miscarried . But , how-so-ever I bee , in this purpose , more playne than pleasant vnto you : and that , even there-fore , I could bee content to speake no more of it , who am loath to grieue you in anie thing ; yet , because I promised it to Eriphilus , and hee conceived , that I could not possiblie cleare such ( as hee called it ) a Calumnie , I must essay , to acquyte my selfe , in prooving all-so of your Romanistes , the other Poynt , and Note of their spirituall K●…nred , propounded by mee , of Devilish Dealing : namelie , that they are Murderers , and teach men so , as well as Liars , and , thus , are Satan's vpright Children . Cardinall Baronius , in his Epistle agaynst the Venetians , speaketh thus ; The Ministrie of Peter , ( blessed Father ) is two-folde , To feede , and to kill ; according to that , [ Feede my Sheepe ] and according to that [ Kill , and eate . ] For , when the Pope hath to deale with refractarie , and averse parties , ( as are the Venetians ) then Peter is bidden , Kill , and slay , and packe them vp in his Bellie . Is not this , I pray you , reverentlie , and rightlie vsed Scripture ? The same Baronius , in his Paraenesis to the Venetians , Pag. 9. It resteth , O Father , ( the Pope ) that you draw agaynst Malefactours the Sword of Peter ; whom to this ende , CHRIST appoynted over Kingdomes , and Nations . Their King-killing Doctrine is too well knowne , and too tragicallie , what attempted , what archieved by them . Iohan. Mariana , Iesuit , de Rege , lib. 1. cap. 6. affirmeth , That Subjects , willing to doe so , may depose the King from his Princelie state : and , that from all memorie , it hath beene esteemed a prayse-worthie thing , who-so-ever attempted to oppresse Tyrants . And , Pag. 60. If no meanes bee of obtayning a publicke Convention , then who ( favouring the common Wishes ) shall attempt to kill a King , or Prince , I will not esteeme that hee hath done wrong . For , their advowed Impudencie , in this pernicious Opinion , let anie Man reade the Iesuit's Booke , De Henrici tertii abdicatione , which was put foorth at Lions , Anno , 1591 : in the Praeface where-of , are these wordes ; That seeing this is one , and the same common Cause , of that other Henrie , a wicked Tyrant , al-so , &c. therefore , it is , that since wee haue spoken of the just abdication of the first , wee desire , that wee may appeare so to haue spoken ( de hoc quoque excludendo , immo conterendo & perdendo ) of excluding ; yea , downe-beating , and destroying of this other , al-so . Mariana , de Rege , pag. 59. for King-killing , alleadgeth the Exemple of E●…ud : as if common and ordinarie actions , could bee warranded by extraordinarie , which ought not to bee drawne in exemple . And the same is brought , al-so , in defence of the Iesuits , Tom. 6. memor . lig. pag. 281 : and , together with it , diverse Romane Doctors , are alleadged , al-so , to this same purpose , as Cajetan . Dominicus Soto . Thomas Aquin. Sylvester Fumus . But , that you may yet see portentuous , both Impudencie , and Impietie , Iohannes Mariana , Iesuit , De Rege , lib. 1. cap. 7. pag 65. & 67. hath these words ; Quid interest ferro an vene●…o per●…as ? &c. that is , What mattereth it , whether thou kill with Knyfe , or with Poyson ? That which is done by Poyson , is done with lesse danger , and more hope of impunitie . Vpon my Warrand , thou mayest vse Poyson : but , with this provision , that bee who is killed there-by , bee not compelled , him-selfe to drinke the Poyson , where-by hee may perish : but that it bee outwardlie applyed , by some other , without vsing anie ayde of him , who is killed there-by . Seeing , especiallie , that so great is the strength of Poyson , that eyther the Chayre , or Apparell , stroaked there-with , may haue force to kill . And , in the ende of that same Chapter , pag. 68. hee concludeth , That it is lawfull , by all meanes , to compasse ones death ; so beeing , that neyther wittinglie , nor vnwittinglie , hee bee made his owne Executioner .

And , if it may neyther offende Philadelphus , ( for some farre carnall conjunction hee had with him ) nor you , ( Eriphilus ) who accounteth him an holie Martyr , I might adde to the former , a familiar , and late Proofe , of what Spirite those Men are , in that brayne-sicke Traytor , who beeing executed this other yeare , for peartlie practized , and phreneticallie professed Treason : yet , soone after , for-sooth , was canonized , and , by you , ( Eriphilus ) esteemed a Martyre . But it falleth you foule , that you can never finde one to fill vp that Roll , but Men , both accused , and clearlie convinced , of Theft , or Treason .

Philadelphus .

For anie Interest I had in that Man , I may , warrandablie , say , that , what-so-ever hee bee , of HIS MAIESTIE'S Liedges , who eyther thinketh so of him , or speaketh of him , as a Martyre , hee meriteth , most justlie , to bee canonized , in the Catalogue of arrand Traytors ; and , to receiue the Recompence of such . But , nowe , ( Eriphilus ) hath not Eubulus , thinke you , sufficientlie , cleared the Trueth , of that which you called a Calumnie ? And , are these , for-sooth , the abstruse Mysteries , of your Iesuits Divinitie ? And , howe jumplie , are they the Followers of IESVS ; who , not onelie , are open , and audacious Encowragers to Murder ; but , all-so , so cunning Informers , of all the diverse Manners , of mischievous working ; and , are so well practized , in all the operatiue Powers , and application of Poyson ; that , they may bee moste apt APOTHECARIES , for Pluto ? And , it is goodlie to see , howe , in the open practise , of monstrous Impietie , yet they would make Asses belieue , that , at least , they kill conscientiouslie . For , they are so squimmish , for-sooth , as , in anie Case , they will not haue a Man made his owne Executioner . And , this is just such an Holinesse , as had the Priestes , and Pharisees ; who , whyles they were , with all Falsehood , Crueltie , and bloodie , and vnbrydeled Rage , murdering the LORD IESVS , yet they would neyther pollute their Sanctitie , Iohn . 1●… . 2●… . Matth. 27. 6. by entering into the Common HALL , nor receiue the pryce of Blood into their TREASVRIE . Thus , Hypocrites , even in the open Practise , of moste grosse , and detestable sinnes , yet beare the , justlie benummed , worlde in hand ; that , because they strayne Gnattes , they can not , but , in a good Conscience , swallowe Camels .

But , what a monstrous excecation , of Men , is this ; that so prodigious Impietie findeth , amongst Professours of CHRISTIANITIE ; not onelie Patrocinie , but , all-so , Admiration ? Where-as , anie Heathen Man , of setled Senses , would skunner , at the verie mention , of such monstrous dealing : where-by , all Bandes of Commerce , amongst Men , which eyther DIVINITIE , HVMANITIE , or NATVRE , by anie kynde of Lawe , haue established ; are , impiouslie , vnhumanlie , and vnnaturallie , broken .

When GOD will not bee defended , with a Lie ; neyther , will haue vs to doe anie evill , that good may ensue Iob , 1 ●… Rom. 3. there-of ; shall a bare pretence of Zeale , and intention of a good ende , make more than Cyclopicke feritie , and devilish Deceit , to become good Religion ? What if those honest-hearted Heathen , whome the Record of Storie , extolleth so much for TRVETH , IVSTICE , TEMPERANCE , FORTITVDE , and others , MORALL VERTVES , ( who yet knewe not the true GOD , nor the sole Way of LYFE ) were raysed from the Death , and did see , and heare , what Men , called CHRISTIANS , and acclayming the Title of KNOWLEDGE , and HOLINESSE , from all others , doe not onelie practize , but professe , all-so ; would they not bee perswaded , that all the Devils of Hell , had come foorth , vnder Ecclesiasticke Names , and Habites , to destroy the World ?

Philomathes .

Let mee entreat you , ( good Philadelphus ) to insist no more in this Subject : other-wayes , you will turne Eriphilus Choler , into a burning Ague .

Philadelphus .

I will , at your request , forbeare it : yet so , as I must tell you this one word ; That , I will rather choose , to bee mine owne Varlot , than eyther to haue the Chayre set vnto mee , or mine Apparell reached mee , by anie Page , which hath passed his Prentiship , and , hath beene initiated , in the Secrets of the Chamber of Meditations . And , for Eriphilus , I will presentlie refresh his Mynde , with one Sonnet more ; where-by to prevent his Ague , or , at least , to giue him a mature Cooling , in the verie beginning of his Fitte .

Doctrines of Devils , with their Dealing joyned , Are Signes of Satan's Synagogue most sure . Wedlocke forbidden , Abstinence enjoyned , From what the LORD proclaymeth to bee pure , His Doctrines are : So is it not obscure , Whom GOD designeth , to bee Devilish Doctors . His workes are Lies , and Killing to procure : And , such men are his proper Sonnes , and Proctors . Your works , then , well be wray your Generation : Knyues , Powder , Poyson , and Aequivocation . Philomathes .

Your Syrope ( Philadelphus ) is little lesse vnpleasant , than your Potion : so , as Eriphilus hath to provide him-selfe , other-wayes , of Patience . But , leaving this , I will turne mee agayne , to Eubulus , who gaue the Wound , which you , well satyricklie haue rankled . You remember , ( Eubulus ) that you compryzed our Man's whole Discourse , of HAERETICKES , in this mayne Syllogisme : To whom the Notes of HAERETICKES , doe properlie conveane ; and , in whom are found manyfolde Defectes , which can not befall the true Church ; they must , of necessitie , bee baereticall . But , to the Protestant Churches , the Notes of HAERETICKES , doe properlie conveane ; and , in them are found manyfolde Defectes , which can not befall the true Church . There-fore , the Protestant Churches , are haereticall . The Proposition , of this Argument , you admitted . To the first part , of the Assumption , ( as touching the Notes of Haeretickes ) you haue so answered ; that , labouring to cleare your selues , you haue layde over , well sadlie , that Imputation vpon our Church . Nowe , then , all-be-it wee haue , the longer , but the lesse Esperance of prevayling ; yet , seeing this other poynt ( concerning the Defectes found in you , or affirmed of you ) resteth nowe , onelie , of all our Man's Poēsie , to bee spoken of ; I would heare your Aunsweres , all-so , vnto his Interrogatours there-vpon .

Eubulus .

Of this , ( Philomathes ) I will acquyte my selfe , XVII . with small a-doe ; for , that , all-most , all the Defectes objected vnto vs , are , vpon your Poet 's praesumed Opinion , That wee want those Markes , where-of hath beene spoken : So , as , anie sensible Man , in that which wee haue all-readie sayde , shall finde all his subsequent Questions , sufficientlie aunswered . Besides that , else-where , I haue aunswered them , at such length , as my Discourse , heere , may bee the shorter , and you yet , aboundantlie , satisfied ; if not with that which I now say , yet , with easie paynes , to reade mine other TREATISES . Nowe , then , reade foorth , in order , your Man's Questions .

Philomathes .

I will both gladlie heare , what you shall now say , and will not wearie , al-so , to reade what else-where you haue written . These , now , are the Questions .

You say , your Fayth did appeare , For the space of sixe hundreth Yeare : When th●… wicked ryse , hyde themsel but when th●… perish , the Ri●… teous increas●… Prov. ●… . ●… But tell mee , if thou can , When Papistrie first began ? Where were the Servants of the LORD , That none of them durst speake a word , To defend the knowne Trueth ? ************** Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle ? Did the Gates of Hell prevayle ? Did the Salt lose its savour ? Was the Bryde out of favour ? Was the Pillar over-throwne , By which all Trueth was to bee knowne ? By this thou wouldst prooue playne , All CHRIST'S Promise to bee vayne . Sea , Heavens , and Earth , shall passe in-deede , But of this Word no jot , wee reade . Where haue you beene so long a tyme ? To whom did your Light shyne ? † † Caput nostrum est in coelo : sed n●… putes quod sit separatum caput a corpore . Discretum est enim loci●… . sed junctum ●…ffectious . Angnstm. in Psal. 91. Chrysost. homil. 35. in Matth. cap. 20. Who-so-ever hee bee , that affecteth Primacie in Earth , shall finde confusion in Heaven : neyther shall hee , come in the count of CHRIST'S Servantes , who maketh businesse about Primacie . Where did your principall Pastor sit ? Who kept your Keyes ? who fed your Sheepe ? Show mee some Church , that you haue built . I can shew manie , that you haue spilt . Were all damned eternallie , Who were not of your Companie ? How might a Man haue found you out , To haue tryall in matters of doubt ; When no such Companie did appeare , For so manie hundreth Yeare ? Till LUTHER , a lying Frier , On whom the Devill ●…ad desire , Brake his Vow , and married a Nun : And then your Haeresie first begun . And favoured , in SAXONIE , By a Duke , that loved Libertie . And in King EDWARD'S tyme , truelie , It first infected our Countrey . For , a thousand yeares , you say , That Papistrie did beare the sway : And during all that space , No Protestant did show his Face . Who kept the holie Scripture then , From the hands of wicked men ? Who had Authoritie , to ordayne , Or make Priests , or Bishops , agayne ? For hee that entereth without order , As a Thiefe , doth kill , and murder . Hee is a Wolfe , and not a Priest , And Enemie to our Saviour CHRIST . And , one thing doth make mee muze , That no Priest you did refuse , Ordayned by the Church of Rome , But hee was excepted soone : If hee would say your Service , Hee should haue a Benefice : Without anie farder Order , And accounted for the Better . How may shee make a lawfull Priest , If shee bee not the Church of CHRIST ? Answere this , if that thou can , And I will bee a Protestan . But , while your Answere you devyse , I counsell all Men , that bee wyse , To holde the Fayth mayntayned heere , The space of a thousand Yeare : Brought to vs English-men , By our Apostle , Sainct Austine : Who from Rome was hither sent , When EDWARD was King of KENT : Who learn'd his Fayth of Gregorie ●… Which Fayth was kept successiuelie , By three-score Bishops , and three , From Saynct Peter's tyme , wee see : Who learn'd his Fayth of CHRIST IESU , Who is the Sonne of GOD most true . To HIM bee all Honour , and Prayse , Who doeth defende HIS Church al-wayes . Eubulus .

You may perceiue ( Philomathes ) the trueth of that XVIII . which I sayde vnto you ; that all these yourman's questions , are coincident , with the cases of Continuance , & Visibilitie , wherof we haue spoken : except , that , in end , for giving vs a deadly blow , in his conceit , he close all vp , with the question of our Callings . And , to make cleare to you , how your man multiplieth words , in vayne , without knowledge , I reduce all his impertinent pratling , to this mayne Argument :

If things , affirmed by you , of your Churches , can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST , made to His Church , and Her certaine condition thereby : and , if you are forced , to acknowledge of the Church of Rome , that which can not bee competent to anie Companie , but to CHRIST'S Church ; then are your Churches Haereticall , and the Church of Rome , is the Church of CHRIST . But , the thinges affirmed by you , of your Churches , can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST , made to His Church , and Her certayne Condition there-by : and that which you grant of the Church of Rome , is onlie competent to CHRIST HIS Church . There-fore , your Churches , are Haereticall , and the Church of Rome , is the Church of CHRIST .

Philomathes .

Verilie , our Poet , if hee were even heere present , could alleadge no Prevarication on you , in the vpright compryzing of the summe of his Discourse . And , if you shall answere to it , as clearlie , and ingeniouslie , as you haue ingeniouslie propounded it , vndoubtedlie the best of this Game will bee yours .

Eubulus .

The Proposition of his Argument , is true : but XIX . his Assumption , is extreamlie false : where-of hee laboureth , to fortifie the first part , touching the Defects alleadged on our Churches , thus :

The Promise of CHRIST , to His Church , is , That Peter's fayth shall never fayle : that , The Gates of Hell shall not prevayle against her : that , The Salt shall not lose its savour : that , The Bryde shall not bee out of favour : that , The Church shall remaine the stable Pillar of Trueth , &c. and , According to this Promise , the certayne Condition of the Church , is , That Shee al-wayes continueth , and is , visible . But , by these things , which you affirme , of your Churches , Peter's Fayth should haue fayled : The Gates of Hell should haue prevayled : the Salt should haue lost its savour : the Spouse should haue beene out of favour : the Pillar should haue beene over-throwne : and , the Church of CHRIST , should not haue continued , and continued visible . There-fore , thinges affirmed by you , can not consist with the promise of CHRIST , made to His Church , and her Condition , accordinglie : and , consequentlie , you are Haeretickes .

Thus , having , as hee thinketh , set vs aside , from anie Interest in the Title of CHRIST'S Church : next , vpon a ground , confessed by vs , but miserable mistaken by him , hee buildeth a Conclusion , for the second part of his mayne Assumption , which concerneth the Church of Rome , thus :

To giue lawfull Ordination to Pastors , is competent onlie to the Church of CHRIST . But , you , Protestantes , acknowledge , That the Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was lawfull Ordination . There-fore , the Church of Rome , must bee the Church of CHRIST .

Doe you not , now , perceiue ( Philomathes ) whither your Man's meaning tendeth , by all this his great Squadron of Interrogatours : with the multitude where-of , hee would , in a Musicall Moode , over-whelme vs ?

Philomathes .

I now perceiue it well anough : you haue reduced all , to so cleare and compendious a forme . And , graunting the Major of his mayne Argument , you denyed his Minor . And , first , that part there-of , which , vpon the Defectes , layde agaynst you , hee assumed of your Churches . For Probation where-of , I must confesse , that no-thing is brought , by him , in his second Syllogisme , but the all-readie disputed poyntes , of Continuance , and Visibilitie . Where-of you haue sayde ●…o much , as wee can not , goodlie , requyre anie more of you . So , that , except it please you to aunswere vnto his last , and , appearinglie , insoluble Objection , agaynst you , grounded on your owne Graunt , of lawfull Ordination by the Church of Rome , I thinke , for mee , there resteth no other poynt vndiscussed of all our matter .

Eubulus .

Of his Objection , of lawfull Calling , by the XX. Church of Rome , and all that hee can possiblie build thereon , I shall , GOD , willing , eyther pay him , or prooue him al-readie payed , more than aboundantlie . And , al-be-it I haue before , al-so , spoken of the other poynts ; yet , for more clearing , whether hee better prooveth , or I deny his mayne Assumption , let vs take a short view of his Interrogatours .

Philomathes .

Then , saye to them , and wee will heare gladlie . Thus they are .

You say , your Fayth did appeare , For the first sixe hundreth yeare : But tell mee , if thou can When Papistrie first began ? Eubulus .

Wee affirme , that our Fayth , which is the onlie XXI . true Fayth , hath appeared , not sixe hundreth , onlie , but , now , all-most , sixeteene hundreth yeares ; though not in alyke evidence , at all tymes , or to all persones : and , though not al-wayes , perceived , even of them , to whome it appeared . For , as the Smoake of the bottomlesse Pitte , by degrees prevayled ; so , was true Light , the lesse , and of the Revel. 9. lesser number , perceived , And , yet , even in the height of that Evill , ( when a Throne was erected to Satan , in the Thess. 2. and Revel. 11. Temple of GOD , and Antichrist obtayned , not onlie the Court of the Temple , but , al-so , all the holie Citie ) there were Candle-stickes , still , in the Temple , and good numbers of Sealed Ones , following the Lambe , on Mount ●…evel . 14. and 7. and 9. 4. Syon , while all the miscarried Earth , followed the Beast : although none could heare , or learne , their Song , but themselues ; who , in that common Apostasie , were bought from the Earth , to be the true Citizens of Heaven , al-be-it in the Earth , yet not of it .

Now , what tyme Poperie did first begin , what Man is hee , that needeth to make anie question , who readeth Paul , Thess. 2. 7. affirming plainly , that the Mysterie of Iniquitie , was even then begun to worke : or , who readeth Iohn , avouching that Antichrist 1. Iohn , 4. 3. was even then in the World ? That the first beginninges , and subtill Insinuation , were not , commonlie , marked , it was the LORD His wyse Dispensation , and Satan's deepe Deceit : for , other-wayes , it had beene no Mysterie . Doeth not the LORD Him-selfe , teach vs , in Parable , That Matth. 13. 2●… the envyous one , did sowe his Tares , even with the good Seede , in the LORD His owne Fielde ; and , that , so covertlie , and subtillie , whyle the Servauntes were sleeping ; that , all-bee-it mixed with the good Seede , and waxing in the midst there-of ; yet , it is not espyed , vntill , by different Stalke , Flowre , and Eare , it bewray whose Hand did scatter it : so , as the verie Servants , al-be-it , by tyme , they see it growing , and waxing , and discerne it to bee adulterous ; yet , they can not tell howe , by whome , nor what tyme , it was sowne ? And , shall Tares , I pray you , bee counted good Wheat , except the moment , and first Sower there-of , bee showne ? Your Man doteth , and deceiveth , in reasoning , Sophisticallie , from Poperie , in the first Seede , to Poperie begotten : and , even from Poperie begotten , in the first subtill Insinuation , and cunninglie-covered beginninges , to Poperie borne , and brought foorth : and , from Poperie , even brought foorth , but yet still masked , vnder fayre and plausible Pretences , and swedled vp , in the Clouts of GOD His Children ; to Poperie , at length , kything , openlie , Teeth , Hornes , and Clawes : so , bewraying , evidentlie , whose Broode it was ; all-bee-it long , and fraudfullie fostered , in the midst of GOD His owne House . Satan was , long , in all Subtiltie , and deepe Deceit , a-bringing out of that Monster , as the last , and greatest Master-stich , of all his Policie , and Power : and , much , and darke tyme , behooved to bee allotted , to the begetting of that great Hercules , of the infernall Iupiter . First , in the Seede : Next , in the Egge : whence Satan , long , and sedulouslie , sitting there-on , at length , hatched out a Serpent : which became , by tyme , a fyrie flying Dragon . For , the Beast arose out of the Earth , Revel. 13. slowlie , and insensiblie : not as that Tages , repente doctus in ipso nascendi Articulo . You may reade , if you list , ( Philomathes ) a more large Answere , to this same vayne Question , sent to my selfe , by one of your side , in my Discoverie of his Dotage there-in .

Philomathes .

I will , GOD willing , reade it . But , what say you to this ?

Where were the Servantes of the LORD , That none of them durst speake a word , To defende the knowne Trueth ? &c. Eubulus .

They were even where Satan's Throne was : XXII . and , all-bee-it tollerating spirituall Fornication , ( for which Revel. 2. 13. the LORD had some-thing agaynst them ) yet , keeping the NAME of GOD , them-selues , and , informing others , in the true knowledge there-of ; they were in the Temple , whyle Antichrist trode downe the Court there-of , ●…evel . 11. 3. and the holie Citie : and , powerfullie , dispensing , there-in , both Light , and Grace , to true Christians ; and , having Vengeance in readinesse , agaynst their Enemies ; they were in the Wildernesse , both fedde , and feeding others . They Revel. 12. 6. 14. ●…evel . 14. 1. were on Mount Syon , with the Lambe , both worshipping , purelie , them-selues , and leading others there-in ; though none eyther heard , or learned , their Song , but the sealed Virgines , whyle the Beast miscarried all the Earth , to commit spirituall Fornication .

Thus , they were , all-wayes , and , both spake the Trueth , and , for the Trueth . But , the blynde , and stupified Sectatours of the Beast , neyther saw , nor heard them . For , howe soone the Beast of the bottomlesse Pitte perceived them : then was The Patience of the Saynctes : and , then , Blessed were ●…evel . 13. 10. ●…nd 14. 12. ●…evel . 11. 8. the Dead , which died in the LORD : then lay they vnburied , in the Streetes of that great Citie , which , spirituallie , is called Sodome , and Aegypt : and , then the Whoore was drunken , ●…evel . 17. 6. ●…evel . 17. 3. with the Blood of Saynctes ; and , the Beast became , whollie , of the Dragon's Colour .

Nowe , where , vpon this , That no opposition was made by them , your Man concludeth , That , there-fore , none at all were ; I pray you , ( Philomathes ) what kynde of Logicke doe you account it ? Because , in Spayne , and Italie , no open opposition is made to Poperie ; are there , there-fore , no Protestant , eyther Pastours , or Professours , in those partes ? The future Ages , might , perhaps , bee induced to thinke so ; because that so the Storie of the Tyme may carrie ; no-thing beeing recorded , but what , in common , obtayneth in the Tyme . But , wee , who nowe liue , would laugh him to heading , as an impudent , or senselesse Liar , who would but denye , that , even in Rome , are hundreths , who holde the Pope , to bee Antichrist . And , howe great encowragement so-ever , our too great Lenitie , giveth them of kything ; yet , would they bee contented , that their numbers , amongst vs , were esteemed , but according to their open and advowed opposition ? When the golden Calfe , was set vp , Exod. 3●… . in the Wildernesse , and that , by so common an Apostasie , as that Aaron was carryed away with the violent Streame of that Evill , it might appeare , that none had beene , there , for the LORD , or free of that common Guiltinesse : and , Exod. 32. 26. yet thousands did kythe in the convenient tyme of challenge . Were there none true , eyther Prophets , or Professours , 1 Kings , 19. 24. 1 Kings , 18. 13. 1 Kings . 1●… . 1●… . in Israel , the yeares of Elias , lurking ? And , yet , who spake publicklie for the Trueth ? Did not even Elias thinke , that all were gone , when yet there were an hundreth Prophets , in one Caue , and seaven thousand true Professours , in one , and the same Kingdome ? Shall Tolleration , speciallie in perilous tymes , conclude approbation , of what is tollerated , in all the Tolleraters there-of ? Doeth not Augustine acknowledge , in his tyme , ( where-in the Mysterie of Iniquitie , was not so farre advanced , but that Trueth still obtayned some place , in common ) that , for regarde of the CHVRCHES peace , they were compelled to tollerate manie thinges , which , other-wayes , they vtterlie mislyked ? Attour , in your Man's Objection , is another ridiculous Fallacie ; by confounding the diverse and distinct tymes , and , accordinglie , the diverse and distinct degrees of growth , of that Apostasie , in the course of tyme : and , not distinguishing , accordinglie , the diverse sortes and degrees of Opponers , and of opposition therevnto . No Age , since the Apostolicke tymes , wanted its owne opposition , and Opponers , according to the degree of Evill , all-though they came not to that last , and highest degree , to which the open discoverie of the Evill , in the toppe of all importable , and vncurable Impietie , did force Men.

Loue , is ever loath to cast off , till all hope bee past . And , sober Men , some-tymes , in a laudable judgement ; some-tymes , agayne , in weaknesse , will even choose , often , in a prevayling Iniquitie , rather to lurke , and keepe themselues cleane ; than , with perilous Contestation , eyther to disturbe the CHVRCHES Peace , or object them-selues , to desperate Daungers . Which , not-with-standing , when they perceiue , that ( without playne perill of all Christianitie , and imputation to them-selues , of betraying the Gospell ) Peace can no more bee keeped ; will then , rather contest , with all hazard , than tollerate a clearlie-discovered , and a desperatelie-pernicious Mischiefe . Shall a Thiefe , bee counted no Thiefe , but from the tyme of his open Endytement ? Or , shall the first beginninges , of injurious Vsurpation , on the one part ; and , an vndoubted , and cleare Right , on the other ; be reckoned onlie from the first publick poynts of Litiscontestation ? A Man , disposed to Peace , will long beare , and , patientlie , expect Reparation of Wronges ; and , even comport , with manie injurious Encroachmentes : vpon hope , that Reason , and gentle Admonition , will bring the Partie to doe him measure . Who , not-with-standing , at last , perceiving his Adversaries waywardnesse , and daylie progresse in wrong doing ; will , then , intende playne Action agaynst him , for his Right . Nowe , shall the vsurping , and injurious Partie , haue , in this , anie reason , where-by eyther to justifie him-selfe , or eschew Reparation of all his by-gone Wronges , and vsurpation ; because they were never , till then , challenged , in that manner , and degree ? You may see more , heere-of , in my TREATISE , Defence of Ca●… . Sect. 19. Rev. 1●… . and 2●… . of our CALLINGES , and COMMENTARIE on the REVELATION .

Philomathes .

Well : let vs goe on .

Did Saynct Peter's Fayth fayle ?

Eubulus .

No : but , if it had , what should haue followed XXIII . there-vpon vnto the Church , more than vpon the fall of Iudas ? What a ridiculous Question is this ? as , if , on the standing , or falling , of anie one Man , or , what-so-ever number of Men , did hang the fall , or stabilitie , of the Church : which is builded , neyther on Man , nor Men ; but , on that immooueable Rocke , which can not fall .

Yet , your Bellarmine confesseth , That , though the Pope should fall away from Trueth , yet , the Church should not , there-fore , fayle .

Philomathes .

You , who are so quicke a Carper of Aequivocations , fall , now , to the same Play , which you reprooue so often in our Poet. For , by Peter's Fayth , hee doeth not meane that Spirituall Vertue , where-with Peter was endewed , there-by apprehending CHRIST to Salvation , ( as you would , perhaps , descrybe it : ) but that Doctrine of Fayth , which Peter professed , and taught .

Eubulus .

Then , ( Philomathes ) the playing with Aequivocations , XXIV . shal be still your Poet's part : for the Lord prayed , for the stabilitie of Peter's particular fayth , where-of Satan sought to sift him ; & , which , remayning steadfast , was his Victorie , in that his Temptation , as I haue before signified . And if your Man , will haue it permitted vnto him , by Poeticall Licence , agaynst the LORD'S mynde , to wrest Scripture , and to intitle , thus , the Doctrine of Fayth : yet , why is it called Peter's faith , more than am 's , or Iohn's ? And , why would not your Poet rather ( according to Scripture speach ) cal it the Faith of our LORD IESVS CHRIST ? But , in what-so-ever sense , giving him , that the Fall , or Standing of the Church , had depended , whollie , on the fayling , or stabilitie , of Peter's Fayth ; could that Fayth , bee no other-wayes preserved , but in the Church of Rome ? And , shall the fall of Rome , conclude , that Peter's Fayth , and , consequentlie , CHRIST'S Church , is fallen ? To make this Conclusion infallible ; your Man must bring a better Argument , than a vayne vaunt , of a bare personall Succession : while , in the tyme , they are fallen away from Peter's Fayth , to the fayth of Simon Magus .

Philomathes .

Did the Gates of Hell prevayle ?

Eubulus .

No : but they did so farre assayle , and with such XXV . successe ( in GOD His just judgement , and wyse permisssion ) as Satan obtayned a Throne , even in the Temple of GOD.

Philomathes .

Did the Salt lose its Savour ?

Eubulus .

It did so farre lose its Savour , in common ; and , XXVI . such as should haue beene the Salt of the Earth , became so vnsavourie , that they could serue for nothing , but to bee Revel. 11. 2. cast out , and trodden vnder foot : ( Cast out the Court , which is with-out the Temple , and mete it not , &c. ) yet ever still the LORD had Ministers , so seasoned , with the Spirit of Light , and Grace , as they were , al-wayes , Candle-stickes , and Oliues , to the Temple : al-be-it , long , few , and labouring in manie Teares ; and , at length , cruellie , murdered , by that vnsavourie , and vnsanctified Fellowship .

Philomathes .

Was the Bryde out of favour ?

Eubulus .

Never : al-be-it , often-tymes , the Brydegrome XXVII . hath had some-what agaynst her : while , dwelling where Revel. 2. 4. 14. 20. and 3. 1. 15. Satan's Throne was , and keeping even there , the Name of Her LORD ; yet , in weaknesse , shee tollerated spirituall Fornication . Shee was never out of favour : yet shee hath beene often afflicted , and tossed with tempest , having no 〈◊〉 . 54. 11. 〈◊〉 : but , beaten , even of the Watch-men : and glad to Cant. 5. ●… . lurke , and to bee fed in the Wildernesse : while the masked Revel. 12. 1●… Whoore , with subtill deceit , made all the Earth to drinke Revel. 27. the Cup of her Abhominations .

Philomathes .

Was the Pillar over-throwne ?

Eubulus .

No : but stood still stable , vpon Mount SYON , XXVIII . with the Lambe ; whyle all the Earth was , in GOD HIS Revel. 14. 1. Revel. 13. 3. 8. 1●… . justice , miscarried , after the Beast ; receiving his Name , Number , or Character . And , so , ( Philomathes )

CHRIST'S Promise prooveth true and playne , And your Man's Ballad is but vayne .

Philomathes .

Where haue you beene so long a tyme ?

Eubulus .

Even where Satan's Throne was : and , even XXIX . there , keeping the Name of IESVS , agaynst the terrour Revel. 2. 13. of Blood-shed .

Philomathes .

To whom did your Light shyne ?

Eubulus .

To the hundreth , fourtie , and foure thousand XXX . sealed Virgines , Followers of the Lambe , by the Light shyning Revel. 14. 1. before them , and seene of them , ( whyle all the Earth , depryved of Eyes , to see , wondered , blyndlinges , after the Revel. 11. Beast : ) who , there-fore , rested not in the common pollution of the holie Citie , and Court of the Temple : but , stepped inwardes , to the Temple , where were , all-wayes , Candle-stickes , and Oliues .

Philomathes .

Where did your principall Pastor sit ?

Eubulus .

At the Right Hand of the FATHER , yet filling XXXI . all . For , in anie other , this Title were a sacrilegious Vsurpation of CHRIST His Honour .

Philomathes .

Who kept your Keyes ? who fed your Sheepe ?

Eubulus .

Even those , who ( when all , in common , had lost XXXII . the Key of Knowledge ; and , neyther entered them-selues , Lake . 11. 5●… . Matth. 23. ●…3 . nor suffered others , to enter into the Kingdome of Heaven ) were still the true Lightes , and Oliues , of the Temple : and , who , at length , by the true Key , haue so opened vp , and discovered Antichrist his Deceit , vnto the long-blynded Worlde , as , the Beast is going , sensiblie , to Destruction ; though the characterized Companie , should never so much gnaw their Tongues , for Sorrow .

If the Scrybes , and Pharisees , to whom CHRIST objected , the losse of the Key of Knowledge , and , shutting of the Kingdome of Heaven , had layde over , agaynst Him , this your Man's Objection ; and argued , there-vpon , the fayling of GOD His Church ; and , consequentlie , of His manie and great Promises : would Hee nor , soone , and easilie , haue aunswered , That , how-so-ever they had so fallen away , in common ; yet GOD still had true , both Scrybes , and Israelites , even in the Bowels of that , commonlie , corrupted Bodie ?

Philomathes .

Show some Church that you haue built , &c.

Eubulus .

A great manie , that you haue spilt . To your XXXIII . Man , ( Philomathes ) Destroying is Building , and Building is Destroying . Vpon , and by that Doctrine , where-vpon wee build , and which wee teach , hath the true Church beene builded , and instructed all-wayes : as , by the right Rule of Examination , wee haue , a thousand tymes , evinced : and , hee , who gathereth not with vs , but scattereth .

Philomathes . Were all damned eternallie , Who were not of your Companie ? Eriphilus .

Seeing , that without the Church of CHRIST , there can bee no Salvation : and , that you doe take to your selues , the Title of the CHVRCH , and denye the same vnto the Church of Rome : I would gladlie heare , ( Eubulus ) what you can aunswere , to this Question : and , how you can , so vnwynde your selfe there-of , as not to fall , in some one of these Absurdities : namelie , That eyther all our Fathers , manie hundreth yeares a-goe , were damned eternallie ; and , that , nowe , all-so , all Men , professing Poperie , doe perish : or , you must acknowledge , the Church of Rome , to haue beene , and , yet , still to bee , the Church of CHRIST : in which case , your Churches must bee haereticall .

Eubulus .

I will aunswere directlie , and , even , categoricallie , XXXIV . to your Man's Question : and , even , so , clearlie , free our selues , of all your Absurdities . But , I must , first , protest , for your patience , ( Eriphilus ) that you will not start at my first wordes ; which , may , perhaps , appeare strange , vnto you : vntill I haue cleared them ; and , there-with , haue vnfolded the Deceit of your Man's Question .

I aunswere , then , and affirme , playnlie , That all were damned eternallie , who were not of our Companie . For , there is but one Way , one Veritie , and one Lyfe . And , yet , it shall neyther followe , heere-vpon , that , all , our Fathers , in Ages past , were damned : or , that , all , presentlie called Papistes , and professing so , doe perish . For , wee are not so praesumptuouslie audacious Determiners ; or , so vncharitable judgers of other Men , as your Men are of vs ; secluding , absolutelie , all who die in our Communion , from Everlasting Lyfe . But , it is well , that , to them , all judgement is not committed . Neyther , yet , heere-vpon , shall eyther the Church of Rome , bee made the Church of CHRIST ; or , our Churches , to bee haereticall Companies .

Eriphilus .

I will take to mee patience , according to your Protestation , to attende the clearing of these so evill-consisting Assertions : all-bee-it , I feare , that my patience , in this poynt , shall neyther beget mee EXPERIENCE , nor HOPE .

Eubulus .

Who hardlie conceiue HOPE , may , haplie , fall to XXXV . ●…e ashamed : but , the aequivocation of this word [ COMPANY ] where-in lyeth your Man's Cavl●…lation ; and , according vhere-vnto , you are also misc●…led in the word [ CHVRCH ] ●…eeing cleared : that , where-of you despare , to finde the Experience , or , con●…ine the Hope , shall bee manifest , and certayne , to anie , who will perceiue , and bee perswaded .

First , then , I say , That all Christian Churches , are one Church ; and , all Christian Companies , are one Companie : vnited , at least , in one common Profession , of the NAME of CHRIST , and in one Baptisme , beeing all vnder one , and the same generall Ensigne : and , so , within one and the same Catholicke Church , ( as the same is absolutelie , all-be-it not most properlie , taken : ) but , not all , truelie , and properlie , of it . For , within the Catholicke CHVRCH , are CHRIST , and Antichrist ; PROTESTANTS , and Papists ; Orthodox ; and haereticall Christians . Now , agayne , in this one , and generall Church , and Companie , there bee manie diverse Companies , ( as in a great Armie , are severall and distinct Bandes , discerned by their proper , and particular Colours , and Cognizanses ) according as they are divyded , each from other : and , that , eyther vnnecessarilie , by prydefull , and vncharitable Renting , of turbulent Men : or , necessarilie , for keeping the cleane , and health some partes of the Bodie , from the dangerous Contagion of affected parts , in that same common Bodie .

In a diseased naturall Bodie , ( Eriphilus ) three distinct Considerations , offer them-selues to bee observed : First , the Bodie in it selfe . Secondlie , the Evill , or Disease in the Bodie . And , thirdlie , the Bodie affected with the Evill , or Disease . The health some Bodie , or considered in its owne naturall state , is one thing . The Bodie affected , or diseased , is ( in that consideration ) another . And , yet , the Disease is the third . The Evill , or Disease , all-bee-it it bee in the Bodie , yet is it not of the Bodie : but , the affected , or diseased part , is of the Bodie : not , in that it is affected , or diseased ; but , in that it communicateth , yet ( all-bee-it weaklie ) with the Lyfe , Sense , and Motion of the common Bodie . Agayne , wee must put a difference , betwixt partes diseased , which , ●…vel . ●… . 2. all-bee-it heavilie affected , and having partes readie to die , yet are not past Physicke , but may bee cured , and quickened , by the Purgation of the Worde , and Spirit ; and , such as are quyte dead , in the Evill , and are incurable , as now , no more part-taking of the common Lyfe , and Sense of the Bodie : as in an Hydropicke Bodie , some partes will bee free , by liuelie Vigour repelling the vicious Humour ; some , not all-to-gether free , but yet lesse affected : some , much affected , and readie to die ; but , yet , in some measure , communicating with the common Lyfe , Sense , and Motion of the Bodie : some , lastlie , in which the vicious Humour hath quyte drowned , out of all Sense , and Motion .

Nowe , to cleare this , by Accommodation : I say , That the BODIE , is the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH , in which are all sorts of Christians : the Evill in this Bodie , but not of it , is Haeresie , Antichristi anisme , or Papalitie . Now , as a much different , and distinct consideration , was put betwixt the Evill , considered in it selfe , and the partes of the Bodie , affected there-with : and , agayne , amongst affected parts , a great difference betwixt those , who yet retayne lyfe , and Motion , and are cureable ; and others , who are dead , or consumed by the Disease : So , ( Eriphilus ) you must not confound PAPISTES , and PAPALITIE ; ANABAPTISTES , and ANABAPTISME ; BROWNISTES , and BROWNISME . GOD forbid , that wee judge so hardlie , as , because PAPALITIE , ANABAPTISME , BROWNISME , &c. are damnable , that , there-fore , all who are called , or professe them-selues PAPISTES , ANABAPTISTES , BROWNISTES , are damned . Because , all-bee-it affected , in some degrees , and even dangerouselie sicke , of those Evils , yet they may haue the lyfe of the common Bodie ; part-taking , thus , with the common Head , and bee curable , by the Purgation of GOD. How manie PAPISTES , ANABAPTISTES , BROWNISTES , are there , who , not knowing the deepnesse of Satan's deceit , ( where-with some of their Seducers , and manie al-so of their Companies , are infected deadlie , and diverted from all true lyfe ) are , in simplicitie of Heart , miscarried , with glistering and plausible pretences , of the Church of Zeale , of Puritie , singular Holynesse , and such lyke ; having yet , and , all-bee-it some-what affected , holding the lyfe of GOD , and true Foundation ? And , so , in distinct considerations , are of one , and the same Companie , with all good Christians , and true Professours : and , yet , are not of one , and the same Companie . Because , al-bee-it one , in the common Bodie , and some measure of the common Lyfe , yet separated each from other : for keeping the cleane partes free , not from the others partes , but from the Evill , where-with they are affected ; till GOD , by the Purgation of His Word , and Spirit cure them .

When wee dispute agaynst the Church of Rome , and deny her the Name , or Title of CHRIST's Church ; wee meane the Papalitie , not all Papistes ; Antichristianisme , not all , who , in simplicitie of Heart , are miscarried after it , ( which no more justlie may be excluded , from the account of Christians , than those two hundreth Men , accounted Traytors , 2. Sam. 15. 11. who went with Absolom , from Hierusalem ) those who haue received the Character of the Beast , ( agaynst whom , onlie , in all the Revelation , is wrath , ever denounced ) not all such , as haue received , but his Name , or his Number : as , handling this Chapter 13. same Question , in my COMMENTARIE on that Booke , I haue , at more length , cleared . And , thus I hope , that , if you will , you may see , how it standeth true , that all were damned eternallie , who were not of our Companie : and ; yet , not all who were , or are , called Papistes , are damned . Neyther maketh this the Church of Rome , to bee the Church of CHRIST : because such Papistes , as are saved , are not saved by the destroying , and consuming Gangrene , where-with they are affected , and which fighteth agaynst the lyfe of GOD : but by the remnant of the lyfe of the Bodie , so farre , as yet , prevayling in them , that the evill hath not gotten force , to suffocate , or extinguish it . In which respect , they were , and are , of our Companie : as , in some measure , joyned to , and holding still , the same Head : al-be-it each from other separated , eyther by an vnnecessarie wound , of turbulent Men , or , by a needefull disjunction : and ( al-be-it not all in a-lyke measure of strength , and health ) enjoying the Common Lyfe . For it is not divers Nominations , whether foolishlie taken , or , at apperite imposed , that disjoyne the , so diverslie named ; eyther from CHRIST , or from the Communion of His Bodie , and Lyfe . It is a grosse Sophistication , in your Men , what is true of the Catholicke Church , to conclude , that , properlie , of anie one part thereof : but , it is both grosse and impudent , to conclude the Properties , and Priviledges , of the Bodie , of the inherent and consuming Gangrene in the Bodie , but not of it .

Eriphilus .

By this your Discourse , ( Eubulus ) you make it an indifferent thing , what eyther Companie , or Religion a Man bee of . And , if one may attayne Salvation , being Papist , Protestant , Anabaptist , Brownist , or what you will , so hee professe CHRIST ; to what ende make you so great a stirre ? And , why goe you about , by all meanes , to haue vs converted vnto you ? Doe you not see , that , whyle you would fayne appeare , to haue Charitie , you over-throw all Pietie ?

Eubulus .

Because , ( Eriphilus ) in Cities , and Houses , infected XXXVI . with Plague , or Leprosie , Men may liue , as who eyther may escape the Contagion , or bee cleansed , or coole out of it : is there , there-fore , no regarde to bee had , what Citie , or House , a Man come into ? Or , is all care , to keepe the Cleane , from the Foule , superfluous ? Or , is there no care to bee had , of curing the Diseased , and cleansing away the Contagion ? In such Companies , some , possiblie , may liue , and escape the Evill : but , the abode , is extreame dangerous , and Death more readie , than Lyfe .

Without the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH , it is moste true , that there can bee no Salvation , But , it were high praesumption , for the most pure worshipping Companie , in all that common Bodie , to confine , absolutelie , all Salvation , within their particular Societie : how-so-ever , Salvation , there , must bee moste assured , and lesse danger of Damnation . So , as , ( Eriphilus ) in this your Objection , is little , eyther Pietie , or Charitie , or common Sense .

Philomathes .

Whether the Disease of the Bodie , bee with vs , or with you : whether it bee Papalitie , or Lutheranisme ; I will not , now , more dispute , much lesse , determine . But , verilie , ( Eubulus ) I can not , but much allow your Discourse , which is no lesse solide , and true , than it is quicke , and subtile . And I commend , much more , your charitable judgement in this case , than our Men's hard determinations of you . And , you haue , exceeding well cleared , that this charitable Opinion , can , nor should , diminish nothing , of that Care , which lyeth on all Men , to search , and embrace Trueth . But , let vs come to the rest of our Interrogatours .

How might a Man haue found you out , To haue tryall in matters of doubt ; When no such Companie did appeare , For so manie hundreth Yeare ? Eubulus .

To this Question , I haue , al-readie , answered , XXXVII . more than once : and , it is the same , which , more than thrise , your Man hath not beene ashamed to demaund . For , from that Question , [ where were the servants of the LORD ; that none of them durst speake a word ▪ ] what haue all his Interrogatours beene , but a pievish repetition of one , and the same thing , in substance ? Anie truelie-lightened , and humblie , and sincerelie seeking , might al-wayes haue found vs out , vnder the common Ensigne . And , if , perhaps , Errour had so farre prevayled , in common , as hee could finde , or heare , nothing , in all the holie Citie , and Court of the Temple , but the Dragon's mouth ; yet Candle-stickes , and ●…evel . ●…1 . Oliues , were never wanting in the Temple . And , even when all the Earth , committed Fornication , following the Revel. 14. Beast , yet Virgines would haue found , on Mount Syon a Song , which chaste Hearts might heare , and learne . To your Man's Rhetoricke , ( where-by , heere , in a Poëticall licence , hee looseth his Tongue so liberallie , vpon , LVTHER ) I disdayne to answere : but , referre him to the Fish-Market , where-of his Aeloquence most smelleth . I come to examine his Logicke . Because before LVTHER , and such others , as were in the same Age , and cause , with him : none did contest , so openlie , or in so high a degree , agaynst Antichrist ; doeth it follow , there-vpon , that none , at all , were before him ? Why , then , were IOHN HVSSE , and HIEROME of PRAGVE , an hundreth yeares , ere then , cruellie , and barbarouslie , burnt ; agaynst publicke Fayth , and assurance , given them ? Why were all the Bo●…emian Churches , so sore vexed ? Because the two Witnesses , Revel. xi . after the Spirit of Lyfe , had entered in them , stoode more vigorouslie , and advowedlie , than before : and , because , by Divine Warrand , at that poynt of tyme , they were first bidden , Come vp hither ; their Enemies saw them , and were afrayde . And , so , then , first , they were , publicklie , separated , from Antichrist his Contagion ; and his Kingdome beginneth to take an open fall , ( where-by the Holie Ghost , paynteth out , playnlie , the tyme , and dealing , of LVTHER , and his Fellowes , in their State , Course , and Condition : ) will it conclude , there-fore , that those Witnesses , were not till then ? or , that they did not contest agaynst Evils , before that tyme , all-be-it not in that degree , eyther of Strength , or Successe ? Had not the Beast , ere then , murdered them , even with applause of the Worlde ? Yea , and before anie advowed Contestation with him , or Violence from him , were they not long prophecying , in the Temple ; all-bee-it lurking , and in Sacke-cloath ?

Because , in KING EDWARD'S dayes , the abolishing of Poperie , and reparation of true Worship , were , first , by publicke Lawes , established ; will anie Logicke conclude , heerevpon , That no Protestantes were , before that ? Where-fore , then , were so manie martyred , before the dayes of KING EDWARD ? What did your Men meane , by the barbarous raysing of IOHN WICKLEFE , and his Disciples Bones , some Ages before that ?

The Name of PROTESTANTS , ( your Man would say ) was never heard of , before LVTHER . But , I pray you , ( Philomathes ) were it good Logicke , to conclude , That never a Christian was in the Worlde , before a Church was raysed in Antiochia ; because , till then , that name was not Acts ▪ 11. 26. heard of ? Will your Poet admit , that where Poperie is not , by lawes , established , there no Papistes are at all ? Poperie , in-deede , did beare sway , for the space of a thousand yeares ; for , so long tyme , the holie Ghost putteth betwixt the Dragon's imprisonment , at which poynt of tyme , Antichrist Revel●…ion , 20. had his first open degrees of vsurpation , to his loosing agayne : at which poynt , that Mischiefe was come to the toppe of all sacrilegious Impietie . But , it did not beare , all that tyme , a-lyke sway ; neyther , at anie tyme , vniversallie , with everie one , how-soever it did commonlie , with all : but had much different , and slowlie , and slielie comming-on , degrees , which your Poet confoundeth , most vnskilfullie : and , there-vpon , no lesse chyldishlie , in different tymes , and cases , yet requyreth one , and the same Manner ; and , one , and the same Measure of Contestation . Which , in GOD'S wyse Providence , was reserved to the challenging of the Beast , in the height of his impietie , for working of his fall . Hee was , first , a fraudulent spotted Pard ; but , by Revel. 13. 2. Revel. 1●… . 3. Revel. 13. 1. Revel. 17. 3. Revel. 2. 14. Revel. 2. 20. tyme , became of the Dragon's Colour . Hee , first , had on his head , the name of Blasphemie ; but , by tyme , all his bodie was full of the names of Blasphemie . Hee , first , craftilie , layde stumbling Blockes , as Balaam ; but , by tyme , the Whoore ; horne vp by him , lyke furious and bloodie Iezabel , did , openlie , over-throw all true Worship , erect Baal , and drinke the blood of Sayncts . Finallie , ( Philomathes ) this your Mens Question , ( where-by they so much stupifie the Simple ) Where was the Church , so manie hundreth yeares , & c ? is , even , just , such a Question , as , if one , who had lyen long diseased , convalescing , at length , should be asked , by one , who had never seene him , walking in perfect health ; Where were you , before this tyme ? To which foolish Demaund , as hee might , verie well , answere , That hee , both had beene , before , and , were the same selfe Man , which the Demaunder had seene before : al-though not in the same state , and condition .

So , wee affirme , That the CHVRCH , is still , the same CHVRCH , which was , all those hundrethes of yeares , where-in they woulde appeare , to make Her a-missing : but , that Shee was long sicke , by a long , slowlie , and , at first , insensiblie comming-on , Disease : which , at length , had become extreame daungerous , and deadlie ; but that , by the Cure of Her LORDE , Shee hath convalesced of it .

And , it were an extreamlie ridiculous Clayme , If , in a Bodie , which had beene over-gone , with a great Disease ; and , yet , by the power of the Noble partes , retayning Integritie , had so farre recovered , that even the Dregges , and force of the Sicknesse , were fallen into the Legges , and Feete : If , there-fore , ( I saye ) the swollen Legges , and Feete , shoulde denye the rest of the Bodie , and take all Priviledge there-of , to them-selues ; because , they , for-sooth , kept still the Dregges of a long Disease .

As the CHVRCH , at first , even in the Apostolicke tymes , and , some whyle after , retayning PVRITIE , and Spirituall Health , was the CHVRCH : So , afterwardes , contracting Sicknesse , in all the growing Degrees thereof ; yet was still the same CHVRCH ; all-bee-it ▪ not in the same good condition , of Health , and integritie , of all her Members : and , nowe , agayne , by the Purgation of of the WORD , and SPIRIT , convalescing , is yet , still the same CHVRCH ; all-bee-it in a greater Degree of Health , than before .

And , still the CHVRCH lived the same Lyfe of GOD , all-though not , all-wayes , in a-lyke measure , and force . And , the Evill , or Disease , was still one , and the same , wasting the Lyfe of the CHVRCH ; all-be-it , not , at all tymes , in a-lyke force , or seene working ; neyther , yet , ever , over-going , vniversallie , everie Member : howeso-ever , it , in common , over-went , and affected , all . For , it never , vtterlie , extinguished the Lyfe of GOD , in the CHVRCH . If your Doctours would ; or , if your seduced ones , could , vnderstand this ; all your Mens vayne Objections , of the Church , should goe in Smoake . But , of this matter , I haue written so largelie , in my Defence of our Callinges , and , Discoverie of the Adversarie's Dotage ; as , I wearie , heere , to multiplie so manie words vnto you . And , this , which I haue , now , more than once sayd , sufficientlie answereth your Man's next Question .

Philomathes .

The next Question , is :

Who kept the holie Scriptures then , From the hands of wicked men ? Eubulus .

In this Interrogatour , I can not tell , whether XXXVIII . hee showeth him-selfe , more ignorant , or impudent : for , first , it is asked , as if nothing had beene in the Bodie , but the Sore . If , besydes the consuming Gangrene , there was ever a Bodie , where-in it was , and , though affected therewith , in common ; yet , having Members , some lightlie affected , some whollie free of that Evill ; how shamelesse is your Man , in this his question ? Next , what if the keeping of Scripture , had beene even by the contagious Companie ? Is this eyther impossible , or a new thing , to the LORD ? And , hath it not fore-going Examples , of the lyke marvelous dispensation , to the high commendation , of His Wisdome , and Providence ; but , where-in the Keepers haue nothing to glorie of ? Did not the Iewes , who neyther pleased ●… . Th●…ss . ●… . 15. GOD , & were Enemies to all Men ; who crucified the LORD of Glorie , and rejected Salvation ; and , on whom the wrath of GOD was come , to the out-most ; yet , by His wyse disponing Providence , keepe , so carefullie , the Canon of holie Scripture ; as , there-fore , they obtayne the name of ( Christianorum Librarii ) The Libraries of Christians ? Made not GOD , the holie Vessels of the Temple , to bee , carefullie , E●…ra , 1. 7. kept , even in Babylon , till the tyme of Restitution ? And , what wonder , then , if , in mysticall Babylon , the Vessels , and Instruments , of the true Sanctuarie , were long , both kept , and captived ? And , may not the Conformitie of Case , so jumplie aunswering , make vs , to advert , in a deepe Heavenlie Wisedome ; howe those former thinges , were , also , in GOD HIS Purpose , Stampe●… of thinges to come ? Was not the Arke of GOD , kept , carefullie , amongst the Philistimes ? Of what Moode hath your Man beene , ( Philomathes ) 1. Sa●… . 6. ●… . when hee mooved , so ridiculous a Question ?

Philadelphus .

Why should you so much marvell heereat , Eubulus ? You did tell vs , before , That their Poët , in this his Armie of Interrogatoures , did more trust in the M●…ltitude of all , than in the particular Strength of anie one . And , in such common Convocations , it is no wonder , though manie bee founde , not well appoynted , in their Geare . And , nowe , verilie , I count it straunge , that Men , professing great thinges , yet should not onelie , bewray a shamefull Want , both of Light , and Sense , in laying , for the onelie Rules of Examining , and discerning GOD HIS Trueth ; What , or where , or what tyme , or by what Men , ought hath beene mayntayned , and , moste commonlie , holden : But , even not obscurelie taxe the ALL-MIGHTIE , as leaving His Church , so weaklie warranded , of the Way of Trueth .

Not when , nor where ; not who , nor what a number , Moste carried Vogue , is moste to bee inquyred . Satan ( seducing ) with the Spirit of Slumber , Soone , wydelie , Starres , and multitudes inspyred , GOD gaue vp Men , to what their Hearts desyred . Thus Satan's Throne was set , ev'n in the Temple . Trye Trueth , for Errour earlie was ing yred ; Wee liue by Lawes , and not by loose Exemple . In darkest tymes , some true light aye remayned , Though secretlie , and , but of some , retayned . Philomathes .

Wee are , nowe , come to our last poynt , and , as wee account , the moste choyse Shaft , in all our Quyver . Our Man's last part , of his Discourse , vpon this poynt of HAERETICKES , you reduced , ( Eubulus ) vnto this Syllogisme :

If thinges , affirmed by you , of your Churches , can not consist with the Promise of CHRIST , made to His CHVRCH , and her certayne Condition there-by : and , if you are forced , to acknowledge , of the Church of Rome , that which is competent , onlie , to CHRIST His Church : then are your Churches Haereticall ; and , the Church of Rome , is the Church of CHRIST .

But , the first is true .

There-fore , the second , all-so .

Eubulus .

That was , in-deede , the Syllogisme , where-in I XXXIX . compryzed this last part of your Man 's poeticall Discourse , vpon HAERETICKES .

Philomathes .

There-of , graunting the Proposition , you denyed the Assumption ; and , haue , accordinglie , done your best , to show it false , in this part , that anie thing is affirmed by you , of your Churches , where-with the Promise of CHRIST , can not consist . The other part of the Assumption , seemeth , yet , to stand strong : namelie , that you are forced , to confesse , that of the Church of Rome , which can not bee competent , but to the Church of CHRIST : and , there-fore , that the Conclusion , at least , for that part , is true : namelie , That The Church of ROME , is the Church of CHRIST . This poynt , confessed , by you , of Rome ; and , which can bee competent , to none other Companie , but to CHRIST His Church , is the lawfull Ordination of Pastours ; as you , your selfe , did , before , verie formallie , take vp , in this Syllogisme :

To giue lawfull Ordination , to Pastours , is competent , onlie , to the Church of CHRIST .

But , Protestants acknowledge , That Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was lawfull Ordination .

There-fore , the Church of Rome , was the Church of CHRIST . And , consequentlie , Protestantes are Haeretickes , who haue forsaken her communion .

Eubulus .

If I haue well , and clearlie , over-throwne the XL. first parte of his Assumption , as you confesse , ( Philomathes ) that I haue done my best , to that effect : consider , with your selfe , what Feete , the other parte there-of , can possiblie finde , for to stand vpon . But , to try this : You acknowledged ▪ That I prooved no Praevaricatour , in taking vp the summe of your Man his Argument : but , that , vprightlie , I haue brought it foorth , in all the strength his wordes can giue it .

Philomathes .

I acknowledge it , in-deede ; and , approoue your Ingenuitie , in such poyntes .

Eubulus .

Then , will I , as clearlie , vnfolde to you , the XLI . manyfolde Deceit there-of . For , first , his whole Argument , is a beguiling Sophisme ; à communi indiviso , as the Schooles speake ; to bee a separate parte in the Communitie . And , to cleare this , I will , orderlie , goe thorowe the partes of his Syllogisme . You haue to advert , the deceit of his Proposition : For , that lawfull Ordination of Pastoures , is competent , to no Companie , or Bodie , but to the Church of CHRIST ; it is moste certayne . For , the Ordayners of Pastoures , must , of necessitie , haue outward lawfull Place , and power , in the visible CHVRCH : in which , except they , both were , 〈◊〉 did , all-so , obtayne , Place , and Power there-in , they ●…uld bee no lawfull Ordayners at all . Nowe , because that Bodie , in common , in which all lawfull Ordayners are , and must bee , is , vndoubtedlie , the Church of CHRIST : there-vpon , to insinuate , that all , or moste parte , of Ordayners , in this Bodie , are of it : and , though lawfull Pastoures , yet , eyther true Pastoures , or Christians , it is a Sophisticall Deceit , à communi indiviso , as I haue sayde . And , vpon your Man's Proposition , thus , rightlie vnderstood , and , as it can onlie bee admitted , to bee true ; when you haue assumed , that , Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was lawfull Ordination : yet , shall you never bee able to conclude more , heere-vpon , than , That the Church of Rome , is in the CHVRCH , and common Bodie . Where-by it was , ( before visible Separation was made , from that Contagion , in , but not of the Bodie , by divine Commandement , to the Witnesses , to Come vp , hither ) that Ordination given by the Church of ROME , 〈◊〉 . 11. and 14. was lawfull Ordination . And , that , which , a little before , I aunswered to your Man's Question , ( Were all damned , aeternallie , Who were not of your Companie ? ) may cleare to you the infolded Fallacie of this your Man's Proposition also . For , within the CATHOLICKE CHVRCH , are CHRIST , and Antichrist ; TRVETH , and Lies ; WHEAT , and Chaffe ; PASTOVRS , and Wolues ; the true TEMPLE , and the Abhomination of Desolation , standing , all-so , ( in sanctis Ecclesiae loc●… ) in the holie places of the Church ; the Bodie , and the consuming Gangrene .

Nowe , vpon that , which is proper , and competent , to the whole Bodie ; and , there-fore , rightlie propounded of the Bodie , in common : and , which , all-so , is rightlie assumed , not onlie of partes of the Bodie , ( because , of that Bodie : ) but , even , of the Apost●…me , or Gangrene , ( because , in the Bodie , ) to conclude , That the Gangrene were in the Bodie , it will holde : but , to conclude , there-of , That i●… is of the Bodie , it will not : much lesse , That it is the onelie , and selfe Bodie . Shall the Sore , in the Bodie , appropriate , there-fore , to it selfe ; or , glorie of the naturall , and liuelie Actions of the Bodie , because it is in the Bodie ; yea , and hath even over-gone the Bodie , in common ? A man hath the Goare , in his Legge : which Legge , all-bee-it , in an hudge degree , festered ; yet , walketh , and mooveth , through the remnant of living , and mooving power , which it yet retayneth . Nowe , shall the Goare , heere , glorie , that , by it , the Legge walketh , and mooveth ; where-as , it is , by it , that the Legge creapeleth , and halteth ?

Lawfull Ordination , is a good , yea , and proper Action , of the Church of CHRIST : not of the Goare , or for the Goare , which is in the Church , and stayneth it : but , through the Lyfe , and Power of the Head , yet remayning in the Bodie , al-be-it affected , and having divers Members , even corrupted , with the Sore . Papalitie , is the Goare in the Church , but not of it : of which , to conclude , the proper Actions of the Church , because it hath place there-in ; and there-vpon , farther , to conclude , of it , the Title of the Church , and Bodie , whose , properlie , the Actions are ; it is but a fraudulent Illuding . Neyther , because lawfull Ordination , is a proper Action of the Church of CHRIST , will it , there-fore follow , That who ever giue lawfull Ordination , are of the Church , how-so-ever they must bee in it . For , as I haue , else-where , evinced , clearlie , lawfull Ordination , may bee taken from a Wolfe , and Thiefe , who , as yet , still retayneth outward Place , and Power of ordayning .

Thus , then , ( Philomathe●… ) if your Man's Proposition , bee vnderstood so , as , that , where ever lawfull Ordination of Pastours were , that Bodie , ( considered whollie ) behooved to bee the Church of CHRIST , I yeeld it to be●… true : but , if hee , fraudfullie , would insinuate , That all with-in that Bodie , who gaue Ordination , were the Church , or of the Church of CHRIST , then is his Proposition deceitfullie false ; and hee concludeth nothing .

Now , let vs see his Assumption . ( But , the Protestants acknowledge , That Ordination , given by the Church of Rome , was Lawfull Ordination ) This Assumption , as it may bee vnderstood , in an●…e of two diverse Senses ; so , I must , accordinglie , answere it . For , first : if by the name of the Church of Rome , bee vnderstood , the common Bodie of the visible Church , al-be-it , at that tyme , affected , so farre , even in common , with that Antichristian Sore , as by Fraude , and tyrannicall Vsurpation , the Name or Number of the Beast , sitting there-in , were imposed : al-be-it numbers , there-in , never received his character ; I grant his assumption 〈◊〉 bee true : but , where-on , hee shall conclude nothing , eyther agaynst vs : or for the Church of Rome , as wee oppugne her . For , wee never pleaded agaynst the Bodie ; neyther haue wee ever separated our selues from the Bodie , as your Men would fayne bynde vpon vs : but , wee pleade agaynst Papalitie , in the Bodie ; and , haue separated our selues , from the Sore , and such deadlie contagious parts , as are infectiue , and incurable : offering , still , the purging Medicine of GOD HIS Word , for the cure , and Health , of all affected Members , who will admit Physicke ; and , for destroying of the annoying , and eating Evill : praying GOD , heartilie , for the perfect convalescing of the whole Bodie . And , the Sore , is still more than ridiculous to oppone , for defence of it selfe , the actions , or properties , of the Bodie , where-in it is : for , with-in that Bodie , even affected , in common , and bearing the name or number of the Beast , were , alwayes , numbers , of not onlie lawfull , but , also , true Pastours , to giue Ordination . For , a sicke Bodie , is still a true , and living Bodie : but , the Sicknesse , in it , is no part of it , and is Enemie to the Lyfe there-of . Next , agayne , if , by the name of the Church of ROME , your Poet vnderstand , even the Papalitie , or characterized Papistes : that is , the incurable parts , deadlie festered with the Sore , ( which onlie wee impugne : ) then , al-be-it not absolutelie , yet , in some respect , wee grant , the Ordination , even so given , to haue beene lawfull : namelie , so long as they retayned outward Place , and Power of Ordination ; before Antichrist's full detection , and separation of the revived Witnesses , from the contagious Companie . Because , al-be-it the Ordayners were Wolues , and Thieues , yet they were not , in common , knowne to bee so : but , retayned still , with all , in common , the reputation , if not of true , yet , of lawfull Pastours . In which case , the receiving of Ordination , from them , was nothing praejudiciall to the sincere Receiver of the same , who had not , as yet , espyed them to be Traytors . And , this Lawfulnesse was not , because it was ministred by the Sore , or deadlie festered parts in the Bodie : but , because those festered parts were still in the Bodie of the Church , and , in common , all-so , esteemed to bee of it : and , al-be-it dead , incurable , and contagious , yet were not cut off , outwardlie , from the Bodie : thus , retayning , still , the account of Members ; al-be-it , in effect , they were none , but a deadlie consuming Evill .

If your Poet , poore Man , had eyther vnderstoode , or considered , what , I thinke , I haue , playnlie , layde before you : if hee had not beene , first , a verie shallowe Ignorant , and vnstable PROTESTANT ; and , now , ( I warrand you ) no profound PAPIST : howe could this haue , so much , stupified him , and casten him into such a Musing ; that , in the REFORMATION of the CHVRCH , wee made no question , to receiue , and vse , the MINISTRIE , of PRIESTES , ordayned by the CHVRCH , which hee calleth ROMANE ?

For , as the Bodie , all-bee-it affected , yet was the Bodie : So , the Calling of the MINISTERS therein , all-bee-it taynted , and corrupted , in common , yet , was a CALLING ; and , that , according vnto the state , and tyme , lawfull .

And , your Poet his Muzing , hath , heere-in , so marred his Memorie ; that , forgetting what they moste object agaynst vs ; hee yeeldeth vs , heere-by , that our PASTOVRES , and REFORMERS , had an ordinarie Vocation .

Nowe , as I haue opened , the implyed Deceit , of your Poet his Proposition , and Assumption , you may see , ( Philomathes ) what Conclusion hee can bee able to builde therevpon ; eyther for the Church of ROME , not-with-standing anie Confession of ours ; or , yet , agaynst vs .

And , this , for-sooth , is the Argument , where-of all your Men , so much glorie , as , they doe entitle it , their INVINCIBLE ARGVMENT : and , where-in your Poet hath so much pleased him-selfe , that hee hath reserved it , for his last Blowe : and , falleth , even for to muze , what wee can bee able to answere there-vnto : and , is so secure , of getting none Answere from vs , as , hee is content , to set this , to all his Disciples , for a terme of adhering to the Romish Faith : till wee , for-sooth , finde out an Aunswere there-vnto . But , besides that little , which I haue , heere , sayde , as I thinke , I haue aunswered there-vnto , so at length , and playnlie , in my Defence of our Callinges , and Epistle , to a Recusant , ( where , of purpose , this poynt is handeled ) as , I neede not , heere , at this tyme , insist farder there-in . I referre you , to those TREATISES , for a more distinct Light , and fuller Resolution heere-in . Which , if you shall reade , with care , and that Ingenuitie , which I conceiue to bee in you ; it may fall , that your Poet repent him , of praefixing you so short a tyme , to remayne a Romanist .

Philomathes .

I will , GOD willing , reade them , both carefullie , and vprightlie . And , seeing that in them , as you say , this poynt of matter , is purposelie handeled ; I will not vrge you to speake more there-of , at this tyme . For , even in the little , which you haue sayde , you haue given mee some-what more , to muze vpon , than I expected : and , which will stirre mee , to search what , more accuratelie , heere-of , you haue , else-where , written .

Philadelphus .

I hope , ( Philomathes ) you shall finde your selfe so satisfied , in this , which your Men esteeme , and call , their Invincible Argument , by reading those TREATISES ; and , shall finde it , in them , so solidlie aunswered , as though your Poet should not onlie fall from his Muses , to muzing : but , even , from Muzing , should fall to Madnesse ; yet shall hee never bee able , to make there-vnto anie sound Replye . As for his Counsell , which , vpon vayne Confidence of this his Argument , hee giveth , of cleaving to the Romish Fayth ; let them follow it , whom GOD hath not , and vpon more ●…ure Groundes , advysed better .

If hee were able to prooue , eyther , That the Doctrine , preached by his Apostle , AVGVSTINE , was the true , and vncorrupted FAYTH of CHRIST ; or , that , since AVGVSTINE'S tyme , it had not received great Increase of Corruption ; hee might the better bynde vs to his Counsell . But , bare Personall Succession , without Evidence of the principall , and moste proper Succession , will never conclude that . And , your Poet prooveth , but still lyke him-selfe , and closeth vp his Ryme , ridiculouslie , in bringing it .

Our Callings , still , you , impudentlie , quarrell , Though Answeres you haue gotten manie one . Your Poet 's prickt , with playne approaching Perill , Of your Empyre , and Romes now tottring Throne . Not daring more our Doctrine then oppone , Hee fettleth , faultie to finde our Vocation . Forgetting strayght , and what hee sayeth , anone , Muzing , hee mooues to vs this Exprobuation ; That Popish Priests , with vs , kept Place , and Title . Your Poet , poore Man , muzeth much on little .
CHAPTER IX . PHILADELPHVS .

NOW , ( Philomathes ) I thinke , you see , howe , at your Intreatie , Eubulus hath , clearlie , aunswered , vnto all your Man's Questions : where-of , at the beginning , you praesumed so much , as , that there were some of them , to which , verie hardlie , hee would finde an Aunswere .

Philomathes .

Verilie , ( Philadelphus ) I can not denye , but that I rest greatlie Debter , both to you , and to Eubulus , for this Dayes Communication : and , that , so cowardlie , at myne Intreatie , you were induced there-vnto : where-in , I thinke , the tyme hath beene so well spent , as ( if it may not bee vnpleasant vnto him ) it may make mee to bee , often , heere-after , a more than troublesome , Interrupter of Eubulus better Thoughtes .

As for your Aunsweres , I will not , so rashlie , determine , what to thinke : but , truelie , I must , vprightlie , confesse , that I haue heard more , than I expected : which , stirreth mee , to covet yet more ; and , will make mee , carefullie , to catch all Occasions , to breede Eubulus farder Molestation .

Eubulus .

Your honest Heart , ( Philomathes ) will make I. mee , all-wayes , glad , and readie to giue you Contentment , in ought I can : For , other-wayes , truelie , I , vtterlie , abhorre all contentious Disputation ; and , I account , all , both Speach , and Paper , but badlie employed , which is spent , vpon anie of such a Disposition .

My Counsell , vnto you , and , out of vpright Loue , is ; As GOD hath given you this , that you , both heare , and reade , calmlie , and carefullie : So , that you bee , both earnest , and instant , in all humble , and fervent Prayer , vnto GOD , for the Direction of HIS Holie Spirit , in the right way of HIS Feare ; which is the onelie Way , to true Illumination : and , not heate of Contention , Bitternesse , Pryde , Selfe-loue , and Singularitie ; which : ( in GOD His justice , Who resisteth the Prowde , and giveth Grace vnto the Humble ) but involue Men , still , more and more , in Blyndnesse , and induration of Heart .

Philomathes .

I giue you heartie Thankes , all-so , for this your good , and loving Counsell : which , by GOD His Grace , I shall bee myndfull of , and labour to followe . And , nowe , vnto that Grace of GOD , wee must , even heartilie , commende you : For , both the declyning tyme of the Day , and our Effayres , doe call vs another way .

PHILADELPHVS , and EVBVLVS .

The BLESSING of GOD , accompanie you , in all your wayes : and , direct you , in the right Path of SALVATION .

PHILOMATHES , and ERIPHILVS , a-part . PHILOMATHES .

AND , haue wee not , thinke you , ( Eriphilus ) spent , both pleasantlie , and profitablie , a piece of tyme ? Trust mee , I can not , but lyke well of this Eubulus , his discreet Disposition : though but even now first acquaynted with him . And , hath hee not , thinke you , sayd much more , in the poynts , which wee haue passed , both agaynst vs , and for them-selues , than wee could haue imagined , that , possiblie , they might haue brought ? So , as , verilie , the longer , the more , I am induced , to thinke , and see , that it is a good , yea , a necessarie thing , for Christians , to bee humblie , and prudentlie carefull ; in prooving , and trying , what they doe holde , in Matters of Fayth ; where-in Men stand , in no lesse hazard , than of missing of , or hitting on , the right Way of Salvation .

Eriphilus .

I am so farre from your Temper , in this matter , ( Philomathes ) as , by the playne contrarie , I thinke , wee haue badlie bestowed this Day : where-in , with great indignation of Heart , I haue beene forced , to heare the Holie Church , disdaynfullie mocked , and bitterlie rayled vpon . So , as I , both blame my selfe greatlie , for casting in anie such purpose , and you , al-so , for so curiouslie insisting there-in . And , by this Dayes experience , I perceiue , well , how just reason our Holie Fathers haue , to interdict Catholickes , absolutelie , of all ; eyther hearing of these Heretickes , or conference with them , or reading of their Bookes : and , that how-so-ever , some coole-mynded Men , can not brooke it , thereis great reason , of ridding away , and dispatching , out of the Worlde , even by all meanes , of such pestilent and pernicious Men : who , except they bee quyte razed out , will not fayle , to subvert the whole state of the World . For , I see , ( Philomathes ) that , by your giving Eare , to their charming Speaches , you are , all-readie , put in the Stayes ; yea , halfe over-turned . For me , when-so-ever I heare ought of them , to which I can not make Aunswere ; I , then , make the Signe of the Crosse , over my Person ; and , I turne myne Heart , and Eares , another way . So , as , let them speake , wryte , or preach , what they please , ( how true , playne , and infallible , so-ever , it appeare ; ) yet , I determine , with my selfe , That it is false : and , I rest , vpon the Authoritie of holie Church ; whose Doctrine , I count it sinne , once to put in question .

Philomathes .

Agaynst an vndoubted Light , and clearlie convincing Trueth , it were , in-deede , high sinne , once to deliberate : much more , curiouslie , or carnallie , to make question . But , for attayning to Knowledge , and Resolution , in doubtfull Matters ; to enquire humblie , soberlie , and sincerelie ; wee not onelie well may , but , all-so , are , of duetie , holden . And , who , without Light , are carried , vpon anie Man's Credite , in Matters of Salvation ; I thinke , they more resemble senselesse Blockes , than wyse Christians .

As for your other Opinion , ( of ridding away , out of the Worlde , by what-so-ever meanes , those you call Haeretickes ) I am sorie to heare it of you : and , so much the more , if you haue vttered it , not onelie out of Passion ; but , all-so , out of a setled judgement . And , to speake freelie to you , in this ; I thinke , this Doctrine , in manie of our Men , bewrayeth , evidentlie , what Spirit they are of . And , for mee , I not onelie , can account them , no Christians ; but , even , no Men at all ; or , worthie of humane Societie : who , vnder anie Praetext of Zeale , doe shake all Bandes of Pietie , and Civilitie .

And , it will bee , assuredlie , seene , ( Eriphilus ) that this Tragicall , and bloodie Wisedome , ( where-by Men , nowe , are begun to thinke , that the Catholicke Fayth , must bee mayntayned ) shall bee the Meane , to hasten the Ruine of the Romish Church : whyle all the Worlde shall bee wakened , by their owne Perill , and cleare Sight , of such monstrous Inhumanitie , to destroy the Destroyers of the Earth .

EVBVLVS , and PHILADELPHVS , a-part . EVBVLVS .

YOU did tell mee , verie rightlie , at our first II. Discoverie of these two Gentle-men , that , all-bee-it , both of them Papistes ; yet , they were , of a much contrarie Disposition : for , so wee haue , in-deede , tryed them . I loue this Philomathes his Towardnesse ; and , I hope well of him . The other's Waywardnesse , and bitter Disposition , I dislyke as farre .

Philadelphus .

You remember , how , even before our encountring of them , I was wishing you , to make some Answere to these Questions , of this Ballader : and , Theriomachus was , all-so , of my judgement . Now , though you refused to doe so ; yet , let mee intreat you , thus farre , as to wryte , but a short Record , of this our Dayes Conference .

Eubulus .

Though , even that piece of Paynes , were , in my III. Opinion , but ydle , and vnprofitable ; yet , it is too small a matter , where-of to refuse you : whom , for manie respects , I am holden , both to loue , and honour . For , other-wayes , to wryte , eyther at length , or of purpose , anie Answere , to such things , ( so often , and , so learnedl●…e , confuted ) I neyther thinke it expedient , for anie , so ●…o bus●…e him-selfe ; and , for me , in so manifolde Distractions , which , you know , I haue , and , a daylie Employment , in the matters of my Calling ; together , with such imbecillitie of Bodie , as can not endure great Paynes ; I were even greatlie blame-worthie , so to waste , eyther Tyme , or Travell . There-fore , hence-foorth , let no Man put mee to businesse . GOD grant , wee may earnestlie studie , to our owne Sanctification ; and , according to that great Dispensation committed vnto vs , wee may labour to worke the same , carefullie , in the Heartes of others : and , not to delight in contention of Disputations ; about Questions , which but ingender Stryfe ; and , doe more feast ydle Humours , than they edifie Godlie Soules .

Illuminate , O Blessed LORD of Lights , The syled Eyes , of simple ones , to see : Disclose the Deepnesse so of Satan's Slights , That straying Sheepe , may turne agayne to THEE . Sling Babell , as a Mill-stone , in the Sea ; And let the NEW IERUSALEM , All-Glorious , Twelue Ports of Pearle cast vp , for Entrie free , To All , who in the Lambs Blood are victorious . Bring downe that Beast , of all this Evill th' Enacter ; His Name , his Number , and his curst Character .
FINIS .
A PASTORALL ADMONITION , TO REPENTANCE . WHat wonder , though they haue so small successe , All Enterpryzes by vs vndertaken ? Wee , meschantlie , haue re-admitted Messe , Which , happilie , was from our sholders shaken . Thus , having foulie , then , our Faith forsaken , All our Endevours , duelie , GOD deludeth . HIS Choler kindleth still , and can not slaken : HEE , justlie , still , our sinfull Sutes secludeth . Nor , shall our Foes , but daylie vexe , and wrong vs , Till once wee put all strange Gods from among vs . No loue of Messe , had ever ledde vs to it : This Groundes was , on Politicke Praetences : But , no Fraetence , had driven vs to doe it , If , in our GOD , wee had plac'd all Defences . But , from HIS Word , so strayed haue our Senses , In Humane Helpe , wee our Repose haue placed . And , there-fore , GOD vs rightlie recompenses . Our Designes fayle , our Doinges are disgraced . To Asa , King , what GOD spake , by Hanani , Concerneth vs , much more than him , or anie . From Syrian's King , Asa succour sought , And , hyred them , with State , and Temples Treasure . Wee vayner helpe , at dearer ●…ate haue bought : Of Asa's Sinne , exceeding much the measure : And , doubled thus , haue on vs GOD'S displeasure ; On-drawing , vndeclynable Destruction , Repent wee not , whyle wee haue anie leasure . It 's cleare , by vndenyable Induction , Some Wages , Asa war'd out on that Nation : Of Babell , wee bring in th' Abhomination . Prowde Ammons King , with Iabesh , was contented , For to conclude , a Covenant , of Peace ; So being , beastlie , that they had consented , To vnder-goe a singular Disgrace : That , pulling out their right Eyes , from their Face , All Israel hee might , so make ashamed . But , much more ignominious is our Case , Our Beastlinesse , and much more to bee blamed . Our Parties Pryde , surpasse●…h that Exemple : To Molech , wee must re-erect a Temple . Then , let vs turne agayne to GOD , who smytes vs : And , doubtlesse , Hee will vnto vs returne . Slyding abacke , so long as it delytes vs , Wee never shall misse Matter for to mourne . It 's senselesse Pryde , agaynst the Pricks to spurne . Take counsell , then , while CHRIST vpon vs calleth : His kindled wrath , begin it once to burne , Woe to the Wicked , in His Fangues that falleth . Will wee but put all strange Gods from among vs , And all the World will bee too weake to wrong vs . With Pittie , LORD , respect Thy People poore , In IESVS CHRIST ; who , gracious and good , Salvation to Sinners , did procure , By sheeding , on the Crosse , his Sacred Blood . HEE is our Solace , and Coelestiall Food ; Vs nursing vp , in hope of endlesse Glorie : HEE hath remooved all that vs with-stood : HEE comforts vs , gainst all may make vs sorie . Since , here-to , nought , but Mercie miere , did moue THEE , Should wee not , LORD , with all our Soules , then , loue THEE ? FINIS .
The Author his Meditation , on the 63 Yeare of his Age , now 〈◊〉 - 〈◊〉 . THis is ( I know ) my Climactericke yeare , And , where-in , if it shall please GOD to take mee , What profit , or what pleasure , haue I here , So louelie , as the loue there-of may make mee , Affect frayle Lyfe , which must , at length , forsake mee ? Which is of Illes , but a Succession Sphericke : Where-of each houre , I count my Climactericke . On ●…irier Hopes , my Soule it selfe heere stayeth : I neyther loathe , nor loue , long heere to liue . Long byding , heere , my Blessednesse delayeth . Heere , vnder Sinne , I doe but groane , and grieue : Heart-broken , but that , firmlie , I belieue , My Death , an Ende shall set to Sinne and Sorrow . Gladlie , come on , then , gratefull Guest , to morrow . Meane whyle , my GOD , with Thy good Sprite direct mee , So as I never wander from THY Wayes : And , by THY Potent Power , so protect mee , As , stable I may stand , gaynst all Essayes . Discowrage not THY Servaunt , with Delayes : But , how-so-ev'r it shall please THEE to proue mee , Still let me feele , my LORD , that THOV dost loue me . Each moment teach m●…e , of my Day●…s , to number : To Wisedome , whollie , that myne Heart applying , I never sinke downe , in a senselesse slumber : But , ( Lusts , and all vngodlinesse denying ; And on THY loving Promises relying ) In all Assaultes , I may haue Hope , and Hearting : And , last , to THEE , a peaceable Departing . I seeke not Peace , with Sinners , or with Sinne : But Peace , which passeth vnderstanding all . Which New-birth , heere , doth in our breasts begin : In that mee keepe , till hence , LORD , Thou mee call . From Fayth , Hope , Loue , LORD , let mee never fall : But , fighting out this good Fight , by THY Grace , Aeternallie , syne , let mee see THY Face . There shall I fynde , that inexhausted Fountayne , Of endlesse Blisse : there shall my Soule bee filled , With sight of Thee : there , setled on my Mountayne , I shall haue more , than Heart ev'r wisht or willed . In Booke of Lyfe , there shall I see mee Billed . Sacietie of Ioyes lyes there-in Store , And vnperturbed Pleasures , ever-more . Passe vp , then , Soule ; possesse that pleasant Place . Onlie for GOD'S peculiar Ones prepared . Goe in to Glorie , by the Gate of Grace ; Where never more in Sinne thou shalt bee snared . What wee shall bee , there shall it bee declared . I long to know the Case , which never Eye , Here saw , Eare heard , Heart thought , what that may bee . FINIS .
ESCAPES , IN PRINTING .

Pag. lin. for reade 10 35 exceding opportunitie , exceeding opportun●…lie . 11 22 Thessalonian , Thessalian . 12 5 Thessalonian , Thessalian . 27 8 to her owne , of her owne . 37 26 Mamackes , Maniackes . 41 22 are seene , are not seene . 46 30 Gates that are , Gates are . 66 3 and no part , as no part . Ibid. 9 notiue , nociue . 70 31 his is , this is . 71 5 cleareth you , cheareth you . Ibid. 13 Mules , Moles . Ibid. 15 at a lite , not a little . 78 3 separablie , separatelie . 88 16 Mules , Moles . 97 19 in doing , is doing . 113 24 a gayne , a Game . 127 31 cloze all , clozeth all . 128 21 ingeniouslie , ingenuouslie . ●…51 18 to bee a separate , to a separate .

Notes, typically marginal, from the original text
Notes for div A01042-e1070