A vvork vvorth the reading VVherein is contayned, fiue profitable and pithy questions, very expedient, aswell for parents to perceiue howe to bestowe their children in marriage, and to dispose their goods at their death: as for all other persons to receiue great profit by the rest of the matters herein expressed. Newly published by Charles Gibbon.

A Work worth the Reading .

Wherein is contayned , fiue profitable and pithy Questions , very expedient , aswell for Parents to perceiue howe to bestowe their Children in marriage , and to dispose their goods at their death : as for all other Persons to receiue great profit by the rest of the matters herein expressed .

Newly published by Charles Gibbon .

The wisdome of a man commeth by vsing well his vacant time , and he that ceaseth from his owne matters and labour , may come by wisdome . Eccles. 38. 24.

LONDON Imprinted by Thomas Orwin : and are to be solde by Henry Kyrkham , dwelling at the little North doore of S. Pauls Church , at the signe of the Blacke Boy . 1591.

To the Right Worshipfull , Sir Nicholas Bacon Knight : long life in prosperitie , with endles ioye by Mortalitie .

IAakob could not beare the vnkindenes of Laban , but departed from him : Dauid could not suffer the discurtesie of Hanun , but attempted warre . The Heathen Man made a Lawe to punish vnthankful persons with death : And Salomon saith , Hee that rewardeth euill for good , euill shall neuer depart from his house . These examples and sayings ( right Worshipfull ) although they be manifest in many to practise , they be impertinent in this place to repeate ; for I feare no ingratitude for my goodwill , though I merit displeasure for my presumption . But where the Vnicorne drinketh all infection is driuen away , where the Beare breatheth no other beastes will feede , where lenitie harboreth no misliking can happen . It was boldlie done of Sinaetaes to offer Cyrus a handfull of water , or of the Persian to giue Artaxerxes the like ; they being beggers by abilitie , those being Kinges by calling , and the presents farre vnfit for Princes . Yet their willingnes in accepting , did bewray the worthines of their calling : for as the tree is known by the frute , the golde by the touch , the bell by the sound : euen so is a mans birth by his beneuolence , his honour by his humilitie , his calling by his curtesie , and indeede true Gentillitie should obserue one thing by the Lark , which although he mounts neuer so high in the ayre , yet hee buildeth his nest very lowe on the earth . I presume with these poore men to offer a booke no better worth than their water , and I hope by the curtesie of these kings your worship will accept of it as it is , measuring the matter by the mulberie , which will euer bee red though it bee not ripe , but if the tree be full of blossomes and beare not , we commonly impute the fault to the rygorous weather , and not to the roote , and if my booke carry a great shew without substance , I trust your Worship wil attribute the defect to my ignorance and not to my beneuolence : for hee that diggeth in the coale-pit woulde worke in minerall if he might , and he that bloweth the fire would fashion the iuell if he could , the twigg must haue much time to grow ere it be great , and I more libertie to practise , ere I be perfect : All men write not according to their learning , but their leasure , Apelles drew the picture of Venus in the beginning very rude , by continuance very rare , so he that at the first by his attempts appeares simple , at length may proue singular , Demosthenes did mend his stammering with much striuing against the hil , and so shall I my learning with more labour in study , yet he that carrieth morter though he be no mason , is not to be blamed because he furthereth the building ; neither is he that shewes his diligence , though he cannot doe well , to be reprehended , because of his good disposition : we mislike not the Taylor , so he can mend where he maketh a fault in the garment , neither ought any to discourage that Author , so he may correct , where he comitteth an escape in his writing , considering what difference there is betweene cutting with the hand , and conceiuing with the head : But I hope your Worship ( in whome the pure word of GOD is planted ) will carrie Moecenas minde , to further and fauour aswell the forward as the famous writers , and then shall my Treatise , though it bee simple haue good successe : it sufficeth me although it be but barbarous , that it hath beene allowed by my betters , or whatsoeuer it be , so it be well accepted of your Worship , I craue no other rewarde , than your patronage of this enterprise though it be simple , and your pardon for my good will if I offend . Thus being loth to trouble your worship with many words , referring the ouersight hereof to your graue censure , humbly submitting my selfe to your curtesie , I commit the tuition of your W. to the Almighty .

Your Worships to commaund , CHARLES GIBBON .

To the indifferent Reader .

I Was in a doubt after I had finished this treatise , whether I should publish it , or pull it a peeces , I thought it too base to bee read , and better worth than to rende , but seeing I haue bestowed some paines in the penning , I meane to hazard my hap in the printing , hee shall write well that can satisfie all , and he as bad that can please none , if Christ could not content al , being a God , it is no maruaile wee mislike many , being but men ; In times past they did not care how plaine a thing were , so it were profitable , and now we force not how bad it be , so it be pleasant , it is this that maketh so many writers imploy their time more wantonly than wiselie , because they see a vaine trifle is more accepted than a diuine treatise . If it bee so , that those bookes which are most light are best liked , and those men that employ their learning to leuitie , are most laudable , then the tenor will but impaire the title of my booke : for it will not be worth the reading : but ( good Reader ) thou must obserue in writing , the manner of it according to the matter , wee must not paynt the Scriptures with superfluous speaches , as men doo their owne fictions after their fancies : for the maiestie of the word requireth modesty in the wrter , this is not vnlike that gem Chalazias , which will be cold though it be cast in the fire or the Chorall , which is best without colouring , those be like water which is apt to any coulour as it hath course , or the Camelion which wil change it self into any hewe it beholds , but this I am sure , there is none can afford so fruitefull a phrase as the Bible , though they practise neuer so fine tearmes in their bookes ; I speak this not to that end I would glose to get credit by my words , or to disgrace those that deserue it by their workes , but to shew what difference there is betweene a pleasant story ( which wee may handle according to our humors ) and a graue discourse ( which must be penned according to the platforme . ) Well seeing my former attempts haue found such fauour , my care shall bee the lesse for the latter , for this I knowe , that the enuious will spite , bee a thing neuer so speciall , the flatterer will sooth , be it neuer so simple , the idle will inuay , be they neuer so ignorant , and there are some will finde fault , be they neuer so foolish ; ( were not he a wise man could stop al their mouthes ? ) but my meaning is not to satisfie such readers which bee rude , but reasonable , not the curious but the curteous , the one will excuse and couer a fault with discretion , the other will but carpe and cauill without cause : so farwell . Bury S. Edmond in Suffolke .

Yours Charles Gibbon .

Whether the Election of the Parents is to be preferred before the affection of their Children in Marriage . The Speakers are Philogus . Tychicus . Two louers of Learning . Philogus

THere is an olde verse which retaines his olde vertue being as credible for antiquitie as trueth ,

It is this ; When Adam dig'd and Eue span who was then a Gentleman ? Then came a rich churle and gathered good , and so came in the gentle bloud . Wherein appeares that the ground of gentillity began with goods : for ( as the wiseman saith ) haue not all men one entrance into life and a like going out . Sap. 7. 6. are we not equall by creation , heires by adoption , brothers by profession , and yet it is a strange thing to see what precisenes of Petigrees , and difference of blouds there is amongst vs , the dayes haue been , that Kings would bestowe their daughters vppon plaine men , and yet thought it no disparagement of bloud , as Saul , who bestowed his daughter Michol 1. Sam. 18. 27. vpon Dauid being but a simple shepheard ; that Lords would haue matched their sonnes with meane mens daughters , and yet account it no blemish to their birth , as Sechem the sonne of Hemor , who ioyned with Dinah , the daughter of Iaakob , he was a Lords sonne that ruled a whole Countrie , Gen. 34. 1 , 2. she , a plaine mans daughter that dwelt in tents , Gen. 25. 27. The time was when rich men would haue taken poore women to their wiues , and yet neuer made any respect of their portions , as Boaz did Ruth , he was a man of great authoritie and riches . Ruth 2. 1. as some thinke iudge of Israel Iudg. 12. 8. she , a poore woman , that glened vpon his land for her liuing . But now it is no match amongst vs , where the parties be not answerable in birth , and agreeable in abilities , where indeede the best gentilitie consist in pietie , and the most wealth in contentment .

I thought good to vse this preamble for this purpose . There is olde Cleanthes an auncient Gentleman , who is adorned aswell with the affluencie of fortune , for great possessions , as with the excellencie of Nature , for good properties ; he hath amongst many children but one daughter ( yet a sister to euery sonne , ) this mayde is very desirous to marrie , and hath made her choyce of such a one , as is both of a goodly composition of bodie , and of a godly disposition of minde . Yet as hee is proper and well disposed , so he is very poore , insomuch as her father by reason of the basenes of his linage , and barenes of his liuing , will not allow of her liking , but hath appoynted her another , which both by parentage and portion may counteruaile her calling and his contentment , yet nothing answerable to his daughters desire , because for his yeares hee may rather bee her father than her husband , which as he cannot be the first , so he is so farre from the latter that she will rather be martyred than married to him , now in this case whether is the affection of the childe to be preferred before the election of the father .

Tichi .

You produce your preamble ( as it seemeth ) to impugne and reprooue such as ( vpon circumstances of parentage and possessions ) will permit or prohibit marriage , and therefore before I answere your proposition , I will say somewhat to your protestation . You bring an olde verse to proue that gentilitie began with goods . Indeede goods in these dayes adde a grace to many , yet gentry hath not his beginning all of one ground . Some haue been base borne , yet came to great estimation , not by their possessions , but by their valiant exploytes , as Iphtah , being sonne of a harlot : Iudg. 11. 1. became Iudge of Israel . Iudg. 12. 7. Others haue been poore , and yet came to great promotion , not for their wealth , but their wisdome ; as Ioseph who being an abiect of his brethren , Gen. 37. 4. became fellow to king Pharaoh , and was made gouernour ouer all Aegipt Gen. 41. 40. and in these dayes amongst vs , many come to preferment , not for their liuing , but learning , not by progeny but prowes , not by desert , but discent : notwithstanding I affirme your sayings that as touching the bare birth , a king hath no better beginning than a beggar , or in respect of the ordinary ende , the Prince hath no priueledge aboue the poore ; for as both proceede from a woman , so both shall feede the wormes ; yet that followeth not although all be made of one mettall , none should bee more excellent in maiestie , or albeit none be noble by nature , any should not be renowmed by calling : for as many differ in degrees of dignity , so according to their title and authoritie they are to be preferred , and what renowne the predecessor dooth purchase by his life , it discendeth by succession to his posteritie after him . You proceed further & say , that kings would bestow their children vpon plaine men , and for proofe you bring in Sauls daughter and Dauid ? this example nothing auaileth : for Dauid had her , not by intercession , but vpon condition , if hee had not slaine Goliah he had gone without her , 1. Sam. 17. 25. Yet are you aduised of Dauids answer after hee should haue her , What am I ( saith he ) and what is my life , or the familie of my father in Israel , that I should be sonne in Lawe to the King . 1. Sam. 18. 18. Herein hee doth shewe his vnworthines to match with such a mans daughter ( I meane for petigree , not for piety ) & this argueth that in those daies they had a speciall respect of parentage ? And Lords ( say you ) would match with meane mens children , & for this you infer Shechem and Dinah ; you must note , although he were a Lords sonne he plaid a leaud part to deflower her , & therefore no doubt it was the filthines of the fact that forced him to marrie her . Yea & rich men ( say you ) would take poore women to their wiues , as Boaz did Ruth , still you striue against the streame , for Boaz was hir kinseman , & therefore was to take her by the title of affynity according to Gods law as it was commanded . If bretheren dwel together , & one of them die & haue no sonne , ( as she had not ) the wife of the dead shall not marrie to a stranger , but his kinseman shall goe in to her and take her to wife , and doe the kinsmans office to her . Deut. 25. 5 , 6 , 7. So that your preamble is impertinent : for where parties be matched equally according to their birth and abilities there is euer best agreement . Nowe to your question : Whether the election of the father is to bee preferred before the affection of the childe . This is as easie to answere as to aske : The ten commandements teach children to honour and submit themselues to their parents , therfore if they contract & couple contrary to their contentation , they rather rebell than obay them .

Phi.

It is true indede but you know the common by word , It is the eye of the maister , that fatteth the horse , and the loue of the mayd that maketh the liking , shee that matcheth her selfe after anothers mind , is like him that fitteth his foote by anothers last : one is often wroong with his shooes in the wearing , the other often vexed with her husband after wedding , either let vs linck to our owne liking or else better vnborne , than liuing .

Tich.

Your talke tendeth only to sensuall circumstances altogether preposterous from the proposition : for the word of God hath giuen parents great prerogatiue ouer their children , euen in this matter concerning Marriage ; insomuch as no contract ( much lesse any coniunction ) can bee lawful vnlesse the parents allow it , according as it is written . If a woman vowe a vowe vnto the Lorde and binde her selfe by a bonde being in her Fathers house in the time of her youth , and her Father heare her vow & bond wherwith she hath bound her selfe , and her Father holde his peace concerning her , then all her vowes shall stand , and euerie bond wherewith she hath bound hir selfe shall stand . But if her father disallowe her the same daye that he heareth all her vowes and bonds wherewith she hath bound her selfe , they shall not be of value , and the Lord will forgiue her : because her father dissalowed her . Nomb. 30. 4 ▪ 5 , 6. Hereof it is that where the maide was taken away and abused , albeit shee was afterward married to the man that did it , yet hee was to pay a peece of money to her father , because he had not his preconsent , as it is written , If a man intice a maide that is not betroathed and lie with her , he shall endowe her and take her to his wife , If her father refuse to giue her to him , hee shall pay mony according to the Dowry of Virgins . Exod. 22. 16 , 17. It is more fullie confirmed in Deuter. 22. 28 , 29. If a man finde a maide that is not betroathed , and take her and lye with her and they bee found , Then the man that lay with her , shall giue vnto the maides father fiftie Shekels of siluer , and she shall be his wife , because hee hath humbled her , he cannot put her away all his life , yea Saint Paul himselfe dooth approoue the superioritie of Parents in this respect , for ( saith he ) If any man thinke that it is vncomely for his Virgine , if she passe the flower of her age , and neede so require let him doo what he will , he sinneth not : let them be married , 1. Cor. 7. 36. And hereto agreeth the same saying of the wise man , Marrie thy daughter , and so thou shalt performe a waightie worke . Eccles. 30. I coulde amplifie the matter very much , but these are sufficient to resolue you , that children cannot match without their Parents consent .

Phi.

Alas , you doo not consider the innumerable inconueniences that bee incident to those parties which bee brought together more for lucre than loue , more for goods than good will , more by constraint than consent , nay more than that , you doe little way the inequalitie of yeares , the contrarietie of natures betweene age and youth , is there no difference betweene the withered Beech and the florishing Bay tree , no opposition betweene frost and flowers , or is it possible that oxen vnequally yoked should draw well together ? if you would conferr al these circumstances together with the accidents you shal find that such an husband , is an hell to a tender Virgine , and that such a marriage , is the beginning of al miserie , and no doubt he that bestows his daughter no better , shall abridge her griefe , by following her to the graue . So that I conclude , seeing marriage is of great moment , not for a moneth but a whole life time , there is no reason , but hee or shee that entreth into that bond , should make their owne bargaine : because it is they that must abide by it .

Tich.

You still continue your carnall positions , to confirme your crased opinion , as though the prescript rule of Gods book , where to be impugned by the naturall reason of mans brayne . If a man may giue his goods to whome hee will , hee may as well bestow his Children where hee thinketh best , for Children are the goods of the Parents ? So it seemeth by that which God himselfe saide to Sathan , when he earnestly desired to deale with Iob , All that hee hath ( saith the Lord ) be in thy handes . Iob. 1. 12. If you looke into the olde law , you shall finde that Parents might sell their Children to supplie their necessity , as appeare in Exod. 21. 7. If a man sell his daughter to be a seruant &c. Laban did little better than make a benefit of his daughters before he bestowed them : For by Iaacobs seruitude it appeareth he made a sale of them , and so they could say themselues afterward . Gen. 31. 15. Therefore if Parents had this great priuiledge then ( which is almost importable ) why should they bee barred of this benefite now , not in selling but in bestowing them ( which is so reasonable ) you alleadge it is good reason they should make their own bargaine , because they must abide it ; as though parents would seeke the preiudice of their owne children , but what libertie of liking had Leah to Iaakob , who instead of her sister Rahel was brought to his bed , Gen. 29. 23. This argueth that parents would dispose their children at their pleasure .

Phi.

I perceiue by your speech you so much preferre the parents , that you altogether enioyne their children to an inconuenience ; that is , not to match to their own liking but as their parents list , as thogh they ought not to shew aswell a fatherly affection , as they looke for filiall obedience .

Tich.

You mistake both the matter and my meaning , for albeit parents ought to yeeld their consent to their childrens choyce , yet they haue no power to prouoke them to marry , if necessitie vrgeth not , hereof sayth Paul . He that standeth firme in his heart that he hath no neede , but hath power ouer his owne will , and hath so decreed in his heart that hee will keepe his Virgin he doth well . 1. Cor. 7. 37. neither may they depriue them of that remedie if they cannot liue continent , for it is better to marry than burne . ibid. vers 9 nay more then that , the parents must presently prouide for them as a duetie enioyned to them , which the same Apostle prooueth in these wordes , Let them be married 1. Cor. 7. 36. neither may they inforce them to any match , if their children mislike ; we haue example thereof in Rebecca , for when the seruant ( who should haue her ) whome Abraham sent was requested that she might remaine ten dayes before their departure , his expedition was such that he had rather goe away without her , than tarry to take her : whervpon her parents called her , to aske her consent , and to know whether shee would goe with that man or no , her answer was , shee would : Gen. 24. 27. &c. this argueth that parents must not vse any coaction , where their children haue no disposition to the partie .

Phi.

Yet all this is to no purpose to the question I propose , for the maid neither meaneth to liue single as a Virgin , yet she cannot bee suffered to match to her minde , as she would doe : nowe in this case whether may the peruersitie of the parents hinder the choyce of the childe ?

Tich.

It is needelesse to adde a double answere to a single question , or to demaund a reason where there is no doubt , your word peruersitie , is so termed of the wilfull , but it is taken for prudencie amongst the wise ; for they know that it is the propertie of parents , not to deale frowardly but fatherly with their children , and to bestow them not as they desire , without discresion ; but as is most expedient ; with circumspection : but admit , that Parents be sometime peruerse , shall children bee pernicious , or ( as wee commonly say ) driue out one nayle with another ? God forbid , they must win them by peticion , not prouocation ; by obedience , not obstinacie . The parents ioy depend vpon their children , and therefore their euill placing , turne to their displeasure , did not Esau by taking wiues , contrary to his fathers will , procure his sorrowe , insomuch as his mother sayd , It should not auaile her to liue if his Brother Iaacob did bestow himselfe so , Gen. 27. 46. let then the example of Esau dehort the disobedient which care more to please their fancies , than their fathers , and let Iaacob be an imitation to the dutifull , which preferre their fathers precept , before their own pleasure : and to resolue you more fully I will shew some apparrant examples that shall approoue the submission of children to their parents in this respect ; Sechem , the sonne of a Lorde hauing deflowred Dinah , although ( by reason of the filthynes of the fact ) it was more time for him to marry the mayde , than to motion the matter , yet before hee woulde marry hee craued his fathers good will , as appeareth in the text for it is there said , He said to his father Hamer , get me this mayde to wife , Gen. 34. 1 , &c. If the consent of Parents was obserued as a principle amongst the very Infidels , how much more ought wee to bee carefull of it that be Christians ▪ Sampson was Iudge of Israel , and a strong and valiant man , yet falling in loue with Dalilah hee did not satisfie his lust without his fathers liking : for he sayde to his Father , Giue mee her to wife . Iudg. 14. 2. Ruth was content to bee ruled by Naomi her mother in lawe , yea euen in this matter concerning her marriage . Ruth . 3. 5. then how much more ought we to submit our consents to our naturall parents ? Many such examples I could insert , but these may satisfie a sensible man in a reasonable matter .

Phi.

I haue permitted your sperch hitherto , not because I could not preuent your Apologie , but that I was desirous to learne what you could alleadge ; and now I plainely see , that a fearce streame hath no stay , if it be not stopped in time , nor your arguments an ende , if they be not intercepted ; to the matter , I confesse that children are commaunded to obey their Parents , yet I affirme they must not in many things approoue their proceedings , for their limites are prescribed , They must obey them in the Lord : for this is right , ( saith Paul ) Ephes. 6. 1. if parents wil prouoke their children to marry with Infidels they may not : for they haue no warrant by the word of God . 2. Cor. 6. 14.

Tich.

Yet the same Apostle saith , The vnbeleeuing husband is sanctified by the beleeuing wife , and the vnbeleeuing wife is sanctified by the husband . 1. Cor. 7. 14. What say you to this ?

Philog .

I thought by taking your rise so rashly you woulde leape shorte : for there are three things to bee obserned which you ouerslipped in those words , the cause that prouoked him : 1. the persons he respected ; 2. the end he aymed at ; 3. the cause that prouoked him was to answere an obiection against such as thought that the godly shoulde bee defiled by the societie of the wicked , which he contrarieth in the same chapt . vers. 14. the persons he respected , were such as were so already contracted , to preuent those that vnder that pretence might take occasion purposely to seperate themselues , which we may gather by the 15. verse . the ende he chiefly aymeth at , was to premonish the vnmarried not to match in that manner as apeareth in the 2. Cor. 6. 14. 15. Bee not ( saith he ) vnequally yoaked with Infidels : then hee sheweth a reason , for what fellowship hath righteousnesse with vnrighteousnes , & what communion hath light with darknesse , and what concord hath Christ with Belial , or what parte hath the beleeuer with the Infidel ? So hauing aunswered your obiection , I will iterate where you interrupted me : As children may not intercommon with Infidels , so their parents may not vrge them to match with Idolators , or such like because it is prohibyted .

Tich.

And yet it is nothing respected in these dayes , for in mariages amongst vs , we make no regarde of godlines , but goods , of righteousnes , but riches , how well , but how welthy , they be made : be he Atheist , be he Papist , be he Newter , we respect not the man , but his money , not his life , but his liuing , not his profession , but his promotion ; and therefore I see no reason , but that they may deale with Idolators . The Israelites a chosen people of God did intercouenant with the Gentiles which were great Idolators . Iudg. 3. 6. Salomon that prudent king tooke the daughter of king Pharaoh . 1. King . 3. 1. & Dauid that holy man , matched with the daughter of king Saul , yet Pharaoh and Saul were grosse Idolaters .

Phi.

I see you striue to wring water out of the pomice , or else you would neuer waste the time with such wordes , doth it follow because most in marriage haue regarde of goods , that I by their example should impaire Gods glory , why wee are taught , not to follow a multitude in euill . Did the Israelites intercouenant with the Gentiles ? why they did contrary to the commaundement of God : Deut. 7. 3. Yet the Lord did not let them passe vnpunished . Iudg. 3. 8. Did Salomon marrie an Idolatrous wife ? why he was drawen to Idolatrie by them , & what followed ; he incurred the wrath of God for his wickednesse . 1. King . 11. 14. As for that act of Dauid it cannot animate vs , seeing the example of diuers may deterre vs , neither is it expedient for any to presume of Gods power , without his will . Now hauing answered your digression , I will proceede where I left , I say still , that the glory of God not the motions of men , his praise not their practises are to be preferred in euerie thing , as in this matter concerning marriage ; we ought indeede to obay our earthly parents , yet we must not dishonour one eternall father , for we are taught by the Apostle Peter to obay God more than man . Act. 5. 29. Wee ought to loue our worldly parents , yet we must not offend our heauenvly father : for , He that loueth father & mother more than me is not worthy of me , ( saith Christ ) Mat. 10. 37. we ought to feare our natural parents , that haue gouernment of our bodies , yet wee must be more afraide of our celestiall Father , which preserues both bodie and soule , and is able to cast them into hell fire Mat. 10. 28. whereupon I ground my argument , that if Parents will profer and impose vpon their children such a match as tendeth more to profite , than pietie , more to content their greedy desire for lucre , than their childrens godly choice for loue , as this man hath doon to his daughter , neyther they nor this mayde ought to depend on their Parents in this poynt : what greater occasion of incontinencie can be giuen , than to match a young and lusty maid against her owne minde , with an infirme and decrepite person to satisfie an others pleasure ? what a crosse contract would this be ? and shall not the maide ( who hath made a fit choyce to her owne minde ) marry , vnlesse she take such an old man , against her minde ? what say you , shal the seuerity of of her Father abridge her liberty , or depriue her of the lawfull remedy ? Nay more than that , shall the maide increase in sin for want of her desire , because her father wil not yeeld his consent , vnlesse it bee to her disliking ? I say no. The Apostle telleth vs , It is better to marrie than burne , and yet she shall keepe her within the bounds of obedience , because she doth it not of purpose in contempt of her parents , but in regarde of Gods glory to auoyd the occasion of euill .

Tich.

Indeede I must needes confesse that to match a young maide with an olde man , it is miserable : nay then that which is more admirable , some man that hath liued single aboue sixtie yeares , will ( vpon a little fleshly fancie ) needes to the world ; yet he wil sooner angle for a frogge than a fish ; I meane , he wil sooner catch a light minion , than couple with a graue matron , and as the worlde doth wonder at him for his wantonnes , in making such a match , so his kindred which did hope to haue good of him , are deceiued by this meanes : for he will so much respect the trifling tricks of his Cosset , that he wil not care to cast off the tried loue of his kindred , whom of a long time he hath put in hope of some great promotion by his death ( which no doubt by their duety & diligence they haue deserued ) and at last doth recompence them with this delusion , by his life to giue all to his young wife , fie vpon flesh that rageth so furiously , & of men that haue no more modesty , & of age that yeelds no better grauitie ( for the grace of man consists not in proportion , but properties ; nor the glory of age in gray haires , but in grauitie . The dayes haue bin that men would not haue their possessions go out of the name , Ruth 4. 5. but these accompt more of their filthy pleasure , than their posteritie ; Moses made a law in Israel , that he that had no issue , should giue his inheritance to such as were of his consanguinitie , for faile of such , to some of his affinitie : Nombr . 27. 8. &c. but these doe more regarde their greedy lust , than a godly law . Wee shall reade in the olde Testament that they might not sell any parcell of their possessions from their Kindred : Ruth ▪ 4. Then with what conscience may these giue all away from them ? Good GOD what a straunge thing is this , that those which goe holding downe their heads as though they woulde droppe into their graues , shoulde bee casting vp their eyes a doting after girles , when it were more meeter for them to make a couenant with death , than a contract with a damsel : but it seemeth such haue liued longer for their yeares , than their vertues , that neither the decrepitie of their age , nor the imbecilitie of their bodies , can bridle their concupisence , but they must further their infirmities by their owne follies ; the young flesh of Abishah ( say they ) did foster Dauid in his age , this giueth a great light to their leuitie , as though Dauid would make his deathbed , a place of beastlynes , when the text saith He knew her not . 1. King . 1. 4. and to couer their dotage , they will carry this cloake for an excuse , It is better to marry than burne ( as though rotten wood could take fire so fast ) , It is lawfull for them to marry I confesse , yet not expedient to match with moathers , the original of such a marriage is grounded vpon no goodnes ; for he taketh her vpon a burning vnbridled lust , she him vpon a leaud desire of liuing , the sight of such nuptials are ridiculous , for who sees them that in derision will not say , the old horse hath got him a young fillie , the succes of such a contract is sorrowfull : for there is no greater rage than the ielousie of man ( saith Salomon ) Pro. 6. 34. it is as cruel as death Cant. 8. 6. and who can bee more ielous than an olde man ouer his young wife : the end of such a vniting is but euill , for imbecilitie and debilitie is a meane to cause his wiues inconstancie . Then what reason should moue the olde man to make such a match , or what maid well disposed will match with such a man , my reason is : It is not sufficient for vs to doe well , but therwith to auoyd the occasion of euill , although shee bee of an honest conuersation , yet the taking of such an olde huddle , will giue occasion to the worlde to iudge the worst .

Whether the Father may lawfully disinherit his first borne . PHilogus .

Children ( no doubt ) are a great blissing of God , & happy are those that haue them to increase his kingdome . What ioye conceiued Elizabeth when she found herself to be conceaued with childe , Luk. 1. 15 ? for barrennes was a great reproach among the Iewes . How ioyful was Hannah when she had a childe ? for she was but vpbraided afore for her barrennes . 1. Sam. 1. 5. What made the daughter of Iphtah desire two moneths to goe to the mountaines to bewaile her virginitie before she died ? was it not her barrennes ? for it was counted as a shame in Israel to die without children . Iudg. 11. 38. The Grecian women accompted their age , from that day they were Brides , and not from the day of their birth ; for then ( say they ) we enter the world , when wee haue children to take charge of . When Rahel had for a time left child-bearing , she was content to suffer her maide Bilhah to beare vpon her knees , to couer her vnfruitfulnes as though it came from her , Gen. 30. 3. for barrennes was counted as a curse , because fruitfulnes came of Gods blessing , who said , Increase and multiplie : barrennes is a signe of disobedience , for the Lord hath promised to those that feare him , There shall none cast their frute , or be barren . Exod. 23. 26. It is said , the Lord shut vp euery wombe of the house of Abimelech , and why ? for a punishment of sinne , because of Sarah , Gen 20. 18. The barren woman enioyes not the promise , which God made to them that were maried , to haue issue , but principally shee is depriued of that promise that God made to Abraham , that he would increase his seede . Therfore let no man lightly esteeme of children , as many do , which accompt them rather a charge , than a blissing , a trouble , than a benefit : for , as they bee arguments of the loue of God , as may appeare in Hannah , whose praier the Lord remembred , 1. Sam. 1. 19. so they be meanes to increase mutuall loue betweene man and wife ; for after Leah had borne a sonne , she was perswaded her husband would loue her and keepe her companie , Gen. 29. 32. 34. Notwithstanding , as godly children are a great gift of God , so the wicked are a great griefe to the parents ; one a renowne , the other a reproach to them . Now manie will say , A good tree bringeth foorth good frute , & so condemne the parents , by their childrens impietie : but let no man iudge rashly , for it falleth out sometime by men , as in other matters : there are few trees that beare frute , but haue some windfalls ; few gardens that bring forth flowrs , but haue some weeds ; few men that haue issue , but some proue euill . Noah had Cham aswell as Sem , Abraham , Ismael aswell as Isaac , Dauid Absolom aswell as Salomon : yet Noah , Abraham , & Dauid were the children of God . But I will omit this matter , and manifest my meaning by an example .

There is one that dwelleth by me , that is verie wealthie , who hath but three sonnes to impart his liuing to , he hath bestowed great cost vpon the eldest to preferre him by learning , yet ( presuming of his patrimonie , as manie rich heires doo in these daies ) he is either foolish , or vnfortunate , for hee yeelds in steed of wisedome , wantonnes , for learning lewdnes , and for obediencie obstinacie ; yea , he had better haue bin put to Cart than to Cambridge , so he might haue reaped more profite , and haue eased his fathers purse : but his other two sonnes hee hath brought vp with litle cost , & yet they increase his possessions by their paines ; now this man at his death doth disinherite his eldest sonne , that procured his griefe , and bequeath it to the two yonger that augmented his gaine . Now in this case I demaund whether he may lawfully disinherite his eldest sonne , yea or no.

Tych.

I doo not thinke that the prauitie of his demeanor , can barre him of the priuiledge of his dignitie : for the first borne were euer most to bee preferred , according as it is written ; If a man haue two wiues , one loued & another hated , & they haue borne him children , both the loued & also the hated : if the first borne be the son of the hated , then when the time commeth that he appointeth his sons to be heires of that which he hath , he may not make the son of the beloued first born , before the son of the hated , which is the first borne , but he shall acknowledge the son of the hated for the first borne , & giue him double portion of al that he hath , for he is the first of his strength , & to him belongeth , &c. Deu 21. 15 , 16 , 17

Phil.

What dignitie hath the first borne aboue the rest of his brethren , seeing they are al ingendred in one womb , & proceed al from one woman , beside that law you repeate was litle respected : for Abraham had children of the hated , before the loued , Gen. 18. 4. of his concubines , before his wiues , Gen. 22. 24. and yet it is said of him , he gaue all his goods to Isaac , whom he had by Sarah his wife . Gen. 25. 5.

Tych.

If the elder were not to be dignified aboue his brethren , what mooued the Lord to say to Cayne , that his brother Abels desire shuld be subiect to him , and that he should rule ouer him . Gen. 4. 7 ? Yea , what caused Iaacob to say to Reuben his eldest sonne , thou art my might and the beginning of my strength , the excellencie of dignitie , and the excellencie of power . Gen. 49. 3 ?

Phil.

But is it not lawfull for a man to giue his possessions to whom he please ?

Tych.

Not in all cases : for it is neither naturall nor agreeable to Gods word , for a man to giue his inheritance to a meere stranger , hauing both children and kindred , as it appeareth in the olde Lawe , where it is written , If a man die & haue no sonne , then ye shall turne his inheritance to his daughter , and if he haue no daughter , ye shall giue his inheritance vnto his brethren , & if he haue no brethren , ye shal giue his inheritance vnto his fathers brethren , & if his father haue no brethren , ye shal giue his inheritaunce vnto his next kinseman of his familie , and hee shall possesse it . Nombers . 27. 8. &c. What was Naboths answere to King Ahab when he demaunded to buy his vineyard , The Lord keepe me ( saith he ) from giuing the inheritance of my father vnto thee . 1. King . 21. 3. it was this that made the King not onely to kill him , but ( to extinguish all issue of inheritance ) his sonnes likewise 2. King . 9. 26. Naomi came out of her Countrie of Moab , to sell a little parcell of ground at Bethlehem , not because there was not anie would buy it , but because she was first to profer it to her kindred . Ruth . 4. 3. If Naomi might not sell her owne to none but such as were of her alliance , much more wee ought not to giue away our owne , from our children and kinsmen .

Phil.

Indeed , as touching inheritance I hold with you , yet all be not inheritors by discent , but manie doo purchase by the pennie , and gather their goods by their paines , & therefore what reason is there , a man should not dispose of that at his owne pleasure ?

Tych.

You say verie wel , but as there is no cause to constraine anie , to giue against his will , so there is no conscience to abridge one of that benefite , he should enioy by right , A man shall doo verie wel to giue seueral portions as he seeth cause , yet he ought to respect the superioritie of his eldest son , that he make him not equall with his brethren , but as he is better by prioritie of birth , so to prefer him by sufficiencie of liuing , which as it is most charitable by the course of nature , so it is best tollerable with the course of scripture : for it is written in the behalfe of the first borne , Thou shalt giue him double portion of all that thou hast . Deu 21. 17. meaning as much as to two of the others , Iehoshaphat King of Iuda had manie children , to whome ( the text saith ) hee gaue great giftes of siluer and of golde , and of precious things with strong Cities in Iuda , but the greatest thing of all which was his kingdome , he gaue to Iehoram : and why ? it is there said , because he was the eldest . 2. Chro. 21. 3. so that the prerogatiue of the elder , is to be preferred aboue his brethren .

Phil.

Is a man so bound to exalt his his eldēst son of dutie , that he may not prefer others before him , of desert ? May not the yonger haue preferment by beneuolence , though the elder hath preheminence by birth ? I see no cause to the contrarie , because I haue examples to confirme it . Iehoiakim was the eldest son of Iosiah that good king . 1. Chron. 3. 15. yet Iehoahaz his yonger brother was preferred to the dignitie royal before him , 2. Kin. 23. 30. Esau was the eldest son of Isaac , yet Iaacob his yonger brother got the blessing before him : so that it is a matter , not of coaction but election to prefer the eldest .

Tych.

I know not what you may vrge by argument , but I am sure your proofes are altogether repugnant , which vpon examination of your examples will appeare . For Iehoahaz although he were preferred to the regall regiment a time before his brother , it was by the choyce of the people , and not by consent of his father , yet he was deposed from the place within 3. moneths , and Iehoiakim his eldest brother installed in his steade , according to right . 2. Kin. 23. 30. 34. As for Esau , there wer three causes , that might lawfully depriue him of his dignitie ; one was his owne greedines in selling of his birthright to his brother Iaacob . Gen. 25. 33. Another was , his brothers dissimulation which he practised with his father to get the blissing from him . Gen 27. 19. The third was , the necessitie of Gods prophecie to come to passe , that the elder might serue the yonger . Gen. 25. 23. So that all these examples do rather prolong the time to no ende , than approue your proposition to be true .

Phil.

Because you both conuince me of the time for tediousnes , and of my speeches for prolixitie , I will cut off manie curious termes , and come briefly to the matter , and according to my first motion let me common with you in this manner ; Is the eldest most dissolute and inclined to euill , and are the yonger more diligent and forward to thriue ? hath the father bestowed a great portion of the other to prefer him by learning , and brought vp these hardlie to take paines for his liuing ? is all his cost cast away vpon the other , and haue these yet receiued no profit for their paines ? then what reason is there , to tie golde to the girdle of him that is graceles , and leaue a browne crust for them to chew that are wel giuen ? What wisedome to bestow abundance on him that will wast it , and to leaue such to thriue with a penie , that will prosper ? Are men so bound to prefer the elder of custome , that they will iniure the yonger without conscience ? No , no , A wiseman will alter custome after discretion , and dispose his wealth according to wisedome , hee will not leaue his riches to him that is riotous , for hee knowes full well , that a broken vessell will holde no water , that wealth in his fingers , is like waxe aganst the fire , one will consume with much heating , the other with much handling : hee consequently considereth , that the leaud lauishing of his liuing after his death , will bee an argument to others , they were euill gotten by him selfe in his life , hee will therefore make him his heyre , not which is first borne , but best inclined , not the eldest , but the excellentest , he will ( I say ) giue most of his goods to such a one , as by his owne life , he shall haue foresight of his forwardnes to liue , and not to such a one , as hath no regard to be reformed in his life ; yea , hee will make him the better that is most obedient and dutifull to doo him good , this is the course Christians ought to take , and for this they haue warrant by the word of God , and thus it may be prooued ; Goods are the gift of God , and he hath appointed vs , not to doo as we list with them , like Lords , but to dispose them well , as his Stewards , & therefore wee ought to haue a great regard of this , to bestowe them on such , where he that gaue them may be glorified , according to the Apostles teaching , Whatsouer ye doe ( saith he ) do all to the praise and glorie of God . 1. Cor. 10. 31. If one should giue his goods to his eldest Sonne , that taketh his felicitie in venurie , voluptuousnes , or such like , I would suppose the gift would be so far from Gods glorie , that it would rather be a meane to maintaine than reclaime him from sin : and shall he not make another his heire , which is more worthie , because he is elder and most wayward ? Why ? Iaacob was a verie godly man , and had two sonnes Reuben & Iudah , Reuben was his eldest sonne , yet he gaue his kingdome to Iudah , Gene. 49. 4. What made him dispossesse his first borne of his priuiledge and Kingly honour ? Nothing but his improbitie ; for he was giuen so much to beastlines , that he did not let to defile his fathers bed ; and therefore it is lawfull for anie man , vppon such leaude occasions , to take the like course .

Tich.

If parents should alter their disposition vpon euery smal displeasure , then they may make a Wil euery weeke , and yet neuer a wise one in the ende . A wise man , hath reason , to whome he giueth , and therefore is resolute when he giueth , he will be angry , and yet sinne not , that is he will not ready in his rage , to diminish his gift for euery grudge , but mitigate his wrath with wisedome , hee may well put vp some displeasures , that hath receiued manie pleasures , if one offence shall make a man froward , the remembrance of many forepassed benefits , may purchase his beneuolence . I speake this to this end , there is many a good man that hath vngodly children , yea and sometimes they are most euill , that are eldest ▪ but yet it were pittie they should be depriued of their dignity . Iosiah did not so much beate down Idolatrie , as his eldest sonne after him did set it vp , yet he possessed his fathers kingdome . 2. King . 23. 32 Iehoshaphat abolished al superstition as his father did afore , but his eldest sonne after him did erect it , yet he came to his fathers kingdome , 1. Chro. 21. 6. and therefore God forbid the elder son should haue iniurie for euery light occasion : for he runneth far that neuer turneth , and though it be long , it is better late than neuer .

Phi.

I perceiue a great sound may come from an emptie Caske , much pith from a peece of weake elder , and a great flame of a little bundle of bryers , but I will leaue the censuring of it to your selfe : if I shoulde reason with a scholler , I could forbeare him , because he is my better , or with one that is ignorant I would suffer him , because he is simple , but the wilfull I cannot permit , because they are peeuish : your examples ( I denie not ) are singular , but your application is so single that it woulde make a man stretch his lipps like a peece of leather , to heare such a reason proceede from one that professeth learning . I speake of such as haue present experience of their childrens impietie , by their life , and you of those that haue come to future filthines after their parents departure . Iaacob in his time saw his sonnes vntowardnes , but neither Iosiah or Iehoshaphat did theirs , in their dayes : then how can these arguments agree , yet to mend the matter you say they runne farre that neuer turne , as though that were a reason worthy of recorde ? why is not hee that giueth them grace to repent , as able to giue them goods to inrich them , either inferre that which is effectuall to the purpose , or else referre your selfe to common sense in iudgement , if neither , then let vs desist .

Whether a reasonable allowance may be taken for lending of monie . PHilogus

Because I will not prolong the time with any impertinent protestation , I will begin briefly with another question : So it is , there is a neighbor of mine that is of great reporte for riches , who hath conuerted his possessions into a peece of monie , and by reason of his age being not able to labour , he letteth his monie to get his liuing , there resorts of al sortes to borrow of him , to the poore he lendeth only for loue , to the rich for loane , now my desire is to knowe whether hee may lawfully take Vsury of the rich yea or no ?

Tich.

If wee dispise the droane that liueth by the honie , & the caterpiller that consume the fruit , shall we supporte him that sucketh the lucre of our labours ? neither doe I thinke that Vsury may bee admitted or excused in regarde of our external estates , or any such sinister circumstances , for it is both generally and flattly forbidden , Thou shalt not giue to Vsurie to thy brother , as Vsurie of monie , Vsurie of meat , Vsurie of any thing that is put to Vsurie . Deut. 23. 19.

Phi.

Yet you omit that you shuld remember , for it followeth further in that place you produce , Vnto a stranger thou maist lend vpon Vsurie , Vers . 20. wherby it appeareth Vsury was then permitted , & yet there was some difference to whome it was done .

Tich.

It was not restrained from strangers , rather for the hardnes of their harts at that time , than because the thing it selfe was tollerable , but God forbid we should by that liberty practise it as lawfull , for you must note , it might be offered to none but strangers ( such as were addicted to Idolatrie & enemies to religion ) but to their brethren ( which were inclined to the true seruice of God ) it might not , therfore amongst vs which be Christians ( being all brethren by profession ) it may not .

Ph.

You are greatly deceiued herein for it appeareth by the yeare of freedom , that not only one neighbor but one brother , haue taken Vsury of an other , these are the words : At the terme of seuen years thou shalt make a freedome , & this is the maner of the freedom , euery creditor shall quite the loane of his hand which he hath lent to his neighbour , he shal not aske it againe of his neighbor nor of his brother , for the yeare of the Lords freedome is proclaymed , Deut. 15. 1. 2. So that I can see no cause but that the rich may lawfully paye vsury , and so much the rather because that yeare of priuiledge was in respect of the poore , but as for the rich creditor he had no ease by that order but might be constrayned to pay , for so it appeareth by the wordes , that which thou hast of thy brother thy hand shall remit , Saue when there shall be no poore with thee . Deut. 15. 3. 4. yea , and there bee diuers places of proofe in the scripture whereby one may gather that Vsury is prohibited in respect of the poore and not of the rich as apeares in Exod. 22. 25. where it is written , If thou lend monie to my people , that is to the poore with thee ( he saith not to the rich with thee ) thou shalt not bee as an Vsurer vnto him , ye shall not oppresse him with Vsury : and for further confirmation , I referre you to Leuit. 25 37. 38. where the matter in effect dissents not from this . These be the wordes , If thy brother bee impouerished and fallen in deacay with thee , thou shalt relieue him &c. thou shalt take no Vsury of him nor vantage , &c. what can be more properly and emphatically spoken in respect of the poore than this without any regard of the rich : for indeed you pretermit two things you ought to expend : the first is the abilitie of the borrower , the next is , the cause that induceth him to borrow , his abilitie is sufficient , the cause is superfluous : sufficient , because it rather exceedeth than is equall with the liuing of the lender : superfluous , because it rather proceedeth of some couetous forecast , for commoditie than vpon any vrgent vse of necessitie , and therefore what deede of charitte is it to lend such a one as needes not , Luk. 14. 12. or if hee borrow , what reason is it the lender should not be partaker of his profite .

Tich.

Your sayings are very sensuall , and be rather meanes to animate many , than restraine any from euill , wherein you take a confused course to maintaine such a monstrous sinne as Vsurie is , for the next way to quench fire is not to powre on oyle , or to driue away the dropsie to followe drinking , neither is it the best course to abandon Vsurie by excusing it : if the Apostle would haue vs to abstaine from al appearance of euil , 1. Thes. 5. 22. how horrible is it to become approouers of euill ? I perceiue that the drift of your long discourse is to no other ende but to proue that Vsurie may be taken of the rich ; yet I cannot finde it lawfull for them to giue it , the Prophet Iheremie confessing his integritie amongst the wicked ( which did curse him without cause ) to cleare himselfe altogether of the blotte of Vsurie saith in these wordes : I haue neither lent on Vsurie , nor men haue lent mee on Vsurie . Iherem . 15. 10. shewing thereby that it is a sinne aswell to giue , as to take interest .

Phi.

I perceiue he that deales with knottie wood must not want an yron wedge , and yet I see no reason why that single protestation of Iheremie which you obiect , should confound the double confirmation of Moses which I alleadge : Notwithstanding I confesse that same saying of Iheremie is singular , as hee placed it , although it be but simple as you apply it ; for if you vnderstand it simplie by the verball sense , then you shew your selfe so simple that you bee voyde of all sense ; for I neuer read of any godly Prophet that did euer let or take monie to Vsury , neither was it like that he whose calling was so excellent by inspiration , would haue his life to sauour of such corruption : & what though the Prophet doth by a Simile make a mention of Vsury to some intricrate end , doth it follow that the naming of it shal make the thing to be nocent , without exception ? Therfore no doubt you are greatly deceiued herein , for those wordes ( I haue neither lent , or men lent me to Vsury ) are vsed of the prophet for two principall endes : The first is by Synecdoche pars pro toto ( to set forth the simplicitie of his calling ) shewing that he was as well cleare of that , as of all other worldly matters and meanes which might either bee impediments to his profession , or giue any occasion of cursing : the next is by a Metaphore drawn from an act of the accidents ( to note the peruersitie of the people ) who exclaymed against him as bitterly ( and yet without cause ) euen as the poore doo when they are grieuously oppressed by the Vsurer , which outcries are sometime saide to be so pitiful that they pierce the skies . Esa. 5. 9. now because here may rise some ambiguity in this latter assertion , I will proue it sufficiently by reason , for your better resolution , It seemeth by all sense and reason that the original of these outcries shuld proceede from the poore , first because they of all others haue most occasion to borrow , and whether should they repayre but to the rich ? next , because when they are oppressed ( by reason of want ) they can not vse those remedies the rich may , and it is this that makes them to exclaime against them . Yea to conclude these exclamations can neuer be construed to come from the rich : for they will sooner crucifie than curse the poore , because ( as Salomon saith ) he maketh his goods his strong Citie Pro. 10. 15. besides that the same wise man saith in another place , his friends are many . Pro. 14. 20. so what by the helpe of his riches one way , and the furtherance of his friends another way , he will vse his remedie by reuengement not by exclamation .

Tich.

Your discourse is so long that I may iustly cut short your logitian cauils , with a laconian quib & yet your matter is more tedious to remember , than troublesome to answere , but because I haue other proofes apliable for this purpose , I will ouerpasse the I could impugne , & infer that you cannot refel . That famous Citie of Ierusalem being destroyed , the Lord by the mouth of his Prophet shewing the cause that prouoked him therto ( amongst many other iniquities ) noteth this for oee , Thou hast taken vsury & increase , & hast defrauded thy neighbour . Ezek. 22. 12. no doubt this saying was set downe for 3. causes , 1. to shew vs that it was a horrible sin , and that in measure amongst the rest it procured parte of the punishment ; secondly that we might by this example shun it ; thirdly that it was not one but many sinnes that caused the destruction of that Citie .

Phi.

I cannot denie but that Vsurie was much vsed in that citie , yet I can see no cause therby that should make me to yeeld to your argument : for the Lord in that place meaneth not the interest that one richman taketh of an other , but the vsurie that the rich tooke of the poore by oppression , & that we may perceiue apparantly in the 5. of Nehemiah , where the rich , had gotten from the poore all their landes , houses vinyardes , corne , & what they had into their hands verse 11. Insomuch , as the exclamation of the poore of that Cittie , was very pitifull against the rich , vntill such time as the same Prophet did make a mitigation thereof : So that the intrusion of your last position is nothing to the purpose ; because our talke tendeth onely for the taking of interest of the rich .

Tich.

You still inuert my proofes at your owne pleasure , but yet I ground not my opinion , vpon your perswasion , for I cannot see but that Vsury is very contemptible . The Prophet Dauid declaring who should dwell in the Tabernacle of God , he nameth him to be one in the number that hath not giuen forth vpon Vsury . Psal. 15. ( this is spoken generally without exception of persons and that is cleane opposite to your opinion ) so consequently wee may gather , that he that doth contrary shall be excluded according to the allusion of the Prophet Ezekiel , He that hath giuen foorth vpon Vsury or taken interest shall not liue . Ezek. 18. 13.

Phi.

I perceiue your principal proofes consist in your last positions , which I haue no doubt to refute as well as the rest . The Euangelist Luke recordeth a saying that should be vsed by our Sauiour Christ , which is this : It is a blessed thing to giue rather than to receiue . Act. 20. 25. Now if you should demand how I could proue these wordes by any other part of the Scripture , my answere should bee , I knowe not ( for the like literall forme , is not to bee found ) but if you should aske , why I beleeue those bare words to be true ? then I would answere , the effect of them may be gathered ( though not orderly , yet sufficiently ) by the words of our Sauior Christ in manie other places in the scriptures . Euen so , touching your authorities & places you produce , I perswade my selfe they are altogether pronounced agaynst such as oppresse the poore : if you should aske mee how I could proue it ? I might answere , I knowe not : for there is no one speciall place of proofe for it . But if you should demaund , what reason should inforce me to say so ? then I would make this aunswere , If you confer all places of the Scripture together , tending or pertaining to this purpose concerning Vsurie , it will appeare that euerie part hath a speciall respect to this ende , to support and profite the poore , and to represse the rich from oppressing them : whereof as I haue shewen you some examples of it before , so for your further confirmation , I referre you to Esa. 5. 8. Amos. 8. 4. others at your owne leasure you may looke out .

Tych.

As no man doubteth , but that the word of God is of sufficiencie of it self without circumstance , yet there is reason to make a doubt of your bare surmise without authoritie , seeing we all knowe it is a course wooll will take no colour , & a bare matter that will beare no argument . Salomon that wise man , doth note the sinne of Vsurie by this sentence , He that increaseth his riches by vsurie and interest , gathereth them for him that will be mercifull to the poore . Prou. 28. 8. the Lorde will not onely abridge his daies ( for the wicked shal be soone cut off ) but also those goods he hath gathered so vngodly together ( how hardly soeuer he had them ) shall bee taken from him , and left to such a one as shall better bestowe them . I pray you , doo but consider into what an intollerable extremitie the people were brought in the time of Nehemiah by burdens of vsurie and exactions , insomuch , as if the same Prophet had not speedely sought a remedie , there had followed great confusion vpon it . Nehem. 5. And no doubt , if good lawes had not been prouided to represse it amongst vs , it would haue caused ere this day , as great calamitie in England , as it did then in Iherusalem . So that you may plead what you please euerie way to excuse Vsurie , but I see no reason anie way to admit it .

Phil.

Hee that wants wood , will rather burne turfe , than be without a fire ; & he that lacks matter , wil rather multiplie words , than cease from reasoning : who would thinke you shoulde giue ouer so many good arguments , to relie vpon this last allegation of Salomon , when indeed his intent is cleane contrary to your interpretation ; for hee meaneth those that gather their goods by interest of the poore , and not of the rich , yea , and ( that which is more malignant ) those that spare the rich , & pinch the poore : which may be gathered in another place in his Prouerbes , Hee that oppresseth the poore to increase himselfe , and giueth vnto the rich , shall surelie come to pouertie . Prouer. 22. 16. As for that matter of Nehemiah , I meruaile you implie it so impertinentlie , hauing prooued before that it pertaineth to the oppression of the poore : and that may more euidently appeare vnto you by the Prophets owne protestation , who ( the better to beate downe Vsurie , and to mooue the rich to remorse ) perswadeth them by his example to be good to the poore : For ( saith he ) euen I and my brethren and my seruants doo lend them money and corne : I pray you let vs leaue of this burden . Nehe. 5. 10. As for your last assertion , touching our Lawes against Vsurie , certes they are verie well prouided : for albeit they restraine the vnreasonable loane for lettage , yet they admit some competent allowaunce for lending : ( I mean not of the poore but the rich ) otherwise , men may want sometime of a sodaine , but they may be bolde to borrowe at leasure . So that all your obiections , be rather needlesse for prolixity , than necessarie for probabilitie .

Tych.

I remember there is a common saying , that hee that is once wet , cares not how deepe hee wade ; so it seemeth , that you hauing ouershot your selfe in your sayings , care not how you maintayne them by shiftes , our S. Christ hath giuen vs a newe commandement ( not to lend for lone as the Iewes did in their daies ) but ( saith he ) Lend looking for nothing againe . Luk. 6. 35. what say you to this ?

Phil.

I say , it were best to intercept you with some other sentence , that might barre the borrower from all the benefit ; could you be content to lend a summe of money to your friend at his instance , and take this peece of scripture for paiment at your day ? I thinke not . Our S. Christ doth not onely wil vs to lend looking for nothing againe , but also in the same chapter , of him that taketh away thy goods , ask them not againe , Luk. 6. 30. yet his meaning is not by these words to maintaine wrong ; for if wee bee forbidden to couet our neighbours goods , much more we may not violently take them awaye : neyther doth he meane by lending looking for nothing againe , that a man should loose al when he lendeth ; for he willeth vs to do , euen as we wold be done to ; then what is he will lend to loose all , albeit he could be content to borrowe and brooke all ? Besides , to detaine a mans dutie , it is a great argument of impietie , and that may appeare by the Prophet Dauids saying ; For ( saith he ) the wicked borroweth , & paieth not againe , Psal. 37. 21. Therefore you must not conster the Scriptures by the literall but the mysticall sense , as hauing regard to the time when , & to the end wherefore it is spoken : and consequentlie you may perceiue that all your positions , are discrepant from your opinion . Now hauing attended & answered all your obiections with patience : you haue reason to heare a little what I can alleadge for proofe : for indeede , it is the part of a cunning Chirurgian , not onelie to purge the wound from corruption , but to applie a plaister to cure it . But to the matter ; The new Testament may be a testimonie with me : for all other particular sinnes ( as couetousnes , extortion , and such like ) are expressed & set downe , but as for vsurie there is no mention made of it , sauing in one place , where it appeareth by the words of our Sauiour Christ , that vsurie is rather admitted than adempted , ( when he reproued the sloathfull seruant , that vnder idle excuses made no profite of his talent ) Thou oughtst ( saith he ) to haue put my money to the exchangers , and then at my comming should I haue receiued mine own with vauntage . Mat. 25. 27.

Tych.

If the Surgeon you speake of coulde no better cure by his arte , than you conuert me by these arguments , he should rather procure a putrifaction than a purgation ; for there is neither sense nor sequele in your assertion : because vsurie is not expressely named in the newe Testament , you will conclude ex consequenti that Vsurie is no sinne . What a paradoxe is this ? is not the affection the cause of the action , the intent , the procurer of the attempt : why then , it is impossible but that vsurie should be comprehended & condemned with couetousnes ; for where there is no auaricious desire , men will lend for loue without lucre : and seeing couetousnes is the roote of all euill , it is no maruell , though Vsurie be a branch of it . Thou oughtest to haue put my mony to the Exchangers saith our Sauiour Christ ) ergo ( say you ) Vsurie is tollerated . What a parabolicall proofe is this ? are we now to learne the purport of a parable , when indeede it is not to be beleeued simplie but significantlie , not according to the circumstance of the matter , but the substance of the sense , and the doctrine , that may be deduced from it , thus your simple handling of your two last propositions , may be wray the loosenes of all the rest of your allegations .

Phil.

I haue read that the Tigresse milke the more it is salted , the lesse it is seasoned , that the Cipresse tree the more it is watred , the more it withereth , so it fareth with you : for my reasons the more forcible the les effectuall they be to perswade you , whether I should impute it to your ignoraunce , or obstinacie , I knowe not : but no doubt to erre , and excuse it is a greater argument of wilfulnesse than wisedome ; you say Vsurie is included within couetousnes , for where there is no greedie desire , men will lend for loue onely , by this reason , hee that letteth his land shal be restrained of his rent , for if his desire were not couetous , he might aswel take God amercie as money , what a conclusion were this , you would haue men , liue by the aire like the Elephant , when you abridge them of their lawfull course to increase . You proceede further and say my proofe is parabolicall ? I confesse it , yet it followeth not it should be improbable ? The husbandman that soweth the seeede ( albeit he referreth the blissing to God ) yet he hath great regard of the ground ; and shall wee that read a parable ( although wee respect chieflie the ende and effect of it ) neglect the matter that doth manifest the same ? Is it possible that the mysterie beeing serious and singular , that the matter should be light and sinister ? Would GOD bewraye his heauenly Wisedome , by similitudes without sense , or not worth our obseruation ? I denie it : for his diuine prouidence disposeth althings to a good purpose . The end of the parable of Diues and Lazarus , is to terrifie vs from hardning our harts against the poore , yet there is somewhat else to bee obserued in the matter of that parable : for I beleeue that after death euerie one shall goe immediately either to heauen or hell , as there be manifolde proues in the scripture , so I haue a manifest example of this euen of Diues and Lazarus . The like I may say by the other parable , although the efficient end therein was to reproue the slothful seruant , because he made no vse of Gods benefits ; yet we may perceiue that the matter besides doth not only import but aproue that it is better to imploy our treasure to some profit by exchaunge , than to hide it in the earth to no ende by excuse ; for Gods gifts are abused if they be not vsed . Therefore let vs not so lightlie esteeme of parables , knowing to what ende our S. Christ vsed them , that the people by seeing might see & not perceiue , and by hearing might heare & not vnderstand them . Mat. 13. 13. Now , if we shall both hear & see them & yet ( by reason of our curious constructions ) neither vnderstand or perceiue them , shal not those parables , nay that people procure our greter condemnation ?

Tych.

Although in worldly matters ( for lucre sake ) wee deale rather subtilly than simplie , yet in matters of Religion , wee must not wrest the word of God to our wills , by cunning without conscience ; for that is the diuine rule of all humane reason . It is an easie matter by follie to make a peece of good timber to serue for burning as for building ; as many places of the scripture by cauilling , assoon to bolster as to bridle sin . But what of that ? If men ( euen in matters of no moment ) are so circumspect that they wil not put that to burn that is meete to build with , how much more ought wee ( in a cause of conscience ) to be carefull , wee applie not that to support which is meete to suppres sin ? If all I haue said will not serue to satisfie you , yet in this respect Vsurie is not to bee permitted , because the Apostle Paule teacheth vs to shun things of euill report . Therfore , seeing there is nothing more odious and opprobrious amongest vs than Vsurie ( to auoide the verie occasion of euill ) it must not bee practised but expelled .

Phil.

Either you delight to vrge argument to no ende , or els you are ouerweened with the sufficiencie of your owne wit ; then I shall sooner beat the truth into your head with a hammer , than remooue your determination with reason , for There is more hope of a foole ( saith Salomon ) than of him that standeth in his owne conceipt , and yet of both the foole is more to be borne with : for he erreth of ignorance , the other of malice . It seemeth you are put to great penury , by your last position , for therby we may aswel shun that which of it self is absolutely good , as that which commonly by occasion is euil , and this was the iniquitie of Ionah , who being willed by the Lord to goe preach at Niniue , hee went another way , ( yet the word of God is excellent and worthy to be preached , & the commandement giuen him expedient to be performed ) what was the cause of his contempt ? nothing els but for feare he shuld be euill spoken of . Ionah . 4. 1 , 2. &c. Thus he did omit that which was good and meete to be done , for feare of the euill might follow of it . But admit the Apostle perswadeth vs to shunne such things as be sinister and of euill report : yet those wordes condemne not vsurie , as it may be vsed ; for if you note the originall of that report , it will appeare that it is the extremitie of the rich that vrge the poore to cry out vpon them , and hereof consequently riseth this euill reporte . Nehe. 5. vers . 6. 9. so that this position is preposterous , for our conference concerneth the rich , and not the poore .

Tich.

Yet there remayneth one thing that commeth fitly to my remembrance for this purpose , our first father Adam after his creation was put into the garden , to dresse and keepe it , and after his fall , hee was enioyned to get his liuing , In the sweat of his face : whereby I gather that all Christians ought to liue in some good vocation ; nowe the Vsurer hath none , therefore for want of a calling he must needs be condemned .

Phi.

What a simple Silogisme is this ? the Gentleman that letteth his lande , will haue a reasonable rent to liue by , the marchant that selleth his ware wil take a reasonable gain to saue by , yea al men that haue any dealings will haue some deuise to get by : and shall he that hath monie be only barred of that benefite , as though it were not as tollerable to vse the lawfull meanes to profite by monie , as in any other matter ?

Tich.

I grant so too , but in Vsury nothing is to be taken of couenant but of curtesie .

Phi.

What a ridiculous reason is this ? You will allow al other men to be circumspect in bargaining for their owne benefite , but binde him that letteth his monie to the beneuolence of others ; those may worke surely for their owne profite , this simply at other mens pleasures ; when indeede it is no wisedome for a man that lends to tie his libertie at anothers election , nor conscience in him that borroweth , to receiue a benefit without amends ? But I pray let me demaund one question of you ? We haue hitherto contended about Vsury , but what call you Vsurie ?

Tich.

We terme that Vsury which is taken ouer and besides the principall that is lent .

Phi.

If it be Vsurie to take any thing more than the principall , who is not a Vsurer ? The Gentlemen will require , the husbandmen will rayse , the tradesmen will rate , in selling of their land , corne , & ware a proportionall price according to the time of payment : now if Vsurie be after your definition , these aswell as the Vsurer doe sin , though they deale not in like sorte : for Vsurie extendeth not onely to monie , but also to meat , or any thing that is put forth . Deut. 23. 19. What a proper exposition is this , that men may take no allowance to liue by without offence . It seemeth you would haue them spend all they haue first , and then to see what they can gather without a beginning he that doth in this forte prouide for his family , is no better than an Infidell by his folly . And therefore it is no maruaile , you haue vsed so long a circumstance without sense , seing you are ignorant of the foundation you defend : for Vsury is not the reasonable , but the vnreasonable , taking of any ouerplus aboue the principal ; which the Prophet in respect of the poore calleth a burthen , Neh. 5. 7. 10. So according to my former conference I fully conclude , that although Vsury is prohibited to be taken of the poore , I see no reason it should be remitted of the rich .

Whether the Rich or the Poore are to be accompted most blessed . PHilogus

I might moue a question concerning the state of men , whether the rich or the poore are to be counted most blessed ? for riches are the gift of God and therefore I would think him most happie , vpon whome , God most aboundantly bestoweth his benefites .

Tich.

If wee consider of men by their externall estates then it is hard to iudge who is most blessed : for in that respect as Salomon saith all things come alike to all , and the same condition is to the iust and the wicked . Eccles. 9. 1. Lot had aboundance of wealth , so had Diues , one was iust and saued , the other wicked and damned , Lazarus had lesse than both , yet his ioye was equall with the best : so that your antecedent is doubtfull , and your conclusion indirect ▪ because pouertie aswell as prosperitie is Gods gift , Pro. 14. 31. and therfore seeing the greatest gift is not goods but grace , the poore being partaker thereof , may be more blessed than the rich .

Phi.

Yet this is no reason to disanul my argument , for as God giueth goods , so hee can giue grace , and both those blessings meeting , must needs make that man more blessed than him that hath but the benfite of one , for though golde be good , yet being beautified with pearle it is more precious according as a learned diuine sayd . Iuncta wirtus fortior .

Tic.

There is no man will denie but that goods of themselues are singular good , yet most will saye , that such are seldome seene that can well vse them , besides ther be some speciall reasons , why the poore by all presumptions should be preferred before the rich into heauen ; riches make men high minded . Nabucadnez-zers heart was lifted vp , and why ? ( the text sayth ) because of his riches . Ezeki . 28. 5. Riches makes vs forget God : Dauid said he should not be mooued , when saide hee so ? it appeareth by his owne speech , in his prosperitie . Psalm. 30 ▪ 6. Riches withdrawe vs from well doing : The ruler was very heauy when he heard he could not possesse eternall life , vnlesse hee parted from his liuing : and why ? for the Euangelist saith , hee was merueilous rich . Luke . 18. 23. Riches makes men bolde to doe euill , whereas pouertie bridleth the poore from many euills . Prouerbs 10. 15. To be briefe richmen haue so many temporall consolations , that they little regarde any spirituall considerations : Therefore as he that is emptie shall with more ease enter in at a straight gate , than he which beareth a great burden ; so the poore ( who haue none of these impediments ) shall with more facilitie obtaine eternall felicitie , than the rich ( who by reason of their aboundance ) shall goe to heauen as a Camell through a needles eye .

Phi.

Your long protestation is more preposterous than pertinent , for as no man doubteth but that prosperity with godly gouernment is good ▪ so none can denie but that pouertie with the feare of God is commendable . Pro. 15. 16. Yet as you say , such are seldom seene , that can wel vse welth , so I may alleage such are rare to finde that can possesse pouerty patiently . Riches ( say you ) make men high minded ; and yet the deuill hath other deuises to drawe poore men to pride he hath many engines to work euill with , and can allure men to one sinne after many sortes , as wealth may inflate the rich man , so knowledge may puffe vp the poore man , and sometime hee that wants both , is prowde in his owne conceipt : riches makes vs forget God ( say you ) , so doth pouertie , for this cause the wiseman desired to be kept from it , leaste he fell to stealing and so forget the name of GOD . Pro. 30. 9. As the rich man hath many temporall consolations , and the lesse regardeth any spirituall meditations ; so the poore man hath so many temporall miseries , that it makes him often dispaire of Gods mercies . Therefore as there is no difference of danger to escape Scylla , and to rush vpon Caribdis , so there is no equalitie of euill to sinne either by excesse or by extremitie .

Tich.

It appeareth by many places of the Scripture that the poore are most preferred , and more to bee regarded than the rich , for although in this world , the mightie ouermaister them , yet in the world to come God hath chosen such to confound the mightie : 1. Cor. 3. 27. albeit here they are dispised and are of no reputation , yet the Apostle saith , God hath chosen them to bring to naught things that are : 1. Cor. 3. 28. Againe our Sauiour Christ saith Blessed be ye poore , for yours is the kingdom of God . Lu. 6. 20 now on the contrary he saith to the rich ▪ Woe be to you for you haue receiued your consolation . Lu. 6. 24. The Apostle Iames saith God hath chosen the poore in this life to be heires of eternall life Iacob . 2. 5. but hee willeth the richmen to weepe and howle for the miseries shall come vpon them . Iacob . 5. 1.

Phi.

I maruaile you prolong the time with such friuolus positions , as though God had so peculiarly chosen the poore , that hee hath vtterly excluded the rich , as for those exclamations that are threatned against the rich , it is not against such as vse their riches well , but wickedly ; and the like I may say , as for those blessings that are vsed to the poore , it is not ment by such as are poore in estate and haue little to liue on , but by such as are poore in spirite , and renounce their owne righteousnes . Esai . 6. 2. for if the poore man doth contemne his crosse , hee shall be punished aswell as the rich man that abuseth his benefite .

Tich.

I perceiue you and I shall varie in argument : for you drawe your speech , by imagination what a richman should be , and I decipher them by contemplation , what they commonly be , if it were possible to finde such a one as you set foorth , then your proposition could no way be imperfect .

Phi.

I haue read in the scriptures that Iob was a very rich man , and yet he vsed his goods verie godly as may appeare by his protestation made in his extremitie concerning his integritie . Iob. 31. 16. Zacheus was a rich man , yet he vsed his wealth verie well , he gaue one halfe to the poore , and proffered restitution foure folde to such as hee had offended : infinite are the examples I coulde recite , but two shall be as good as twenty to resolue you .

Tich.

What doth the view of the vertuous examples of others auaile vs ▪ seeing we haue no practise of their proceedings amongst vs , you should do well to shew where any of these benefactors are .

Phi.

It is not necessary to note any by name , yet this I can say , there bee some that are good to the poore at their doores , a few that will help their friendes in distresse , otherwise as I doo not loue to looke into the dealings of many , so I can say little of the dispositions of most .

Tich.

They say that one swallow is no argument of summer , nor the Aethiopians white teeth cannot make his face faire , neither may the forwardnes of a few , be a generall presumption for all that be rich , It were hard if amongst many blossomes all should proue blasts , or amongst many rich men , all shuld be misers , but yet if you marke the maner of such as doo good , you shall finde they either doo it grudgingly or glorionsly , and that was the fault of the Pharisies , one doth a pleasure and but seldome , and yet he must speake of it very often , hee cannot be content to doe good before God who can make restitution , but he must haue it known to the world , that laugh at his vaine ostentation to giue , it is good ; the deede is charitable to him that hath need , but not acceptable to God , because he sinneth if he doth it not simplie : and surely hee that braggeth or vpbraydeth where he hath done good , deserueth no better amendes than his owne mouth . Other there be that be wealthy , that wil hardly parte from a pennie by their life , but giue great promises of much after death , and yet I think if they could carie it with them , they would hardly leaue it behinde . It is a wonderfull thing that such men as almost haue no heires to inherite , no cause to be couetous , no reason to hold fast , should shewe themselues so wretched to the world , that they will crucifie theyr owne carkasse for want of cost , and sooner die than depart with ought to doo another pleasure . Alas , what possibilitie of preferment is to be expected of such a person , that will yeeld no likelihood of liberalitie by his life ? Besides , doo they thinke , one can feede vpon faire wordes , or prosper by bare promises ? Why , he may goe long barefoote that tarries for dead-mens shooes , and yet when he hath them , they wil not be worth the wearing : for I haue knowen such , as haue promised golden hils by their life , that haue performed but durtie daies at their death : It is but a fetch of fraudulencie , yea oftentimes the cause of farther inconvenience , to bring one in hope of hauing a thing , and then to delude him at the last with nothing . These should doo well to remember the Wisemans words , to doo good before they die . For it is far better they should send their workes afore them , than they should follow after them , & it is a greater worke of charitie for them to doo good by their life freely , than to doo it after their death forcibly . Wel , to be briefe , let this suffice , where there is one that doth good with his goods , there are a hundred that doo hurt with them .

Phil.

If I should make as long a description of the poore , as you haue made a vayne inuection against the rich , you might iustly say , I vse more words than wit , both because your circumstance of speech , is nothing to the substaunce of the matter , as also , because if both their cuills were weyed together in an equall ballance , although they differ in exterior estate in regard of liuing , I feare me they would not be inferior in interior deserts in respect of their liues : for as you say of the rich , so amongst the poore for the most part there be manie that bee leaudly addicted . But because it is a needlesse discourse to discouer them , I will omit that , and to the matter ; The good man ( saith Salomon ) shall giue inheritaunce vnto his Childrens Children . Prouerbs . 13. 22. then it seemeth , such as haue nothing to giue , are vngodly . But the Prophet Dauid doth make it more manifest : for ( saith he ) I neuer saw the righteous forsaken , nor his seed begging bread Psa. 37. 25. If we conster this by the contrarie , what should I say , is not pouertie an argument of impietie ?

Tych.

It is a perillous thing to giue any peremptorie iudgement of the poore , considering what the Psalmograph saith , Blessed are they that iudge wiselie of such . What though Salomon saith , The good man shall giue inheritance , & c ? Yet that is no consequent to condemne the poore , that haue nothing to part with ? For the Scripture saith , God hath chosen such . I am . 2. 5. Besides that , the Prophets , nay the Apostles , yea Christ himselfe was but poore , & had no worldly possessions to dispose ; yet we must not say they were impious : therefore that position was ill put in , and your latter to as little purpose . For though Dauid in his dayes neuer sawe the righteous beg their bread : yet since , we haue seene in the Scripture an example to the contrarie , for Lazarus lay begging at the rich mans gate , and yet his soule did rest in Abrahams bosome .

Phil.

You must consider there are diuersitie of pouerties : Dauid was a King , and yet in regard of a richer , he counted himselfe but poore ; for saith hee ( to his sonne Salomon ) According to my pouertie haue I prepared for the house of the Lord . 1. Chr. 22. 14. Now , I speake not in respect of a competent liuing , for it was that , the Wiseman most desired ; neither of him that hath but a little to liue on , for with the feare of God , it is better than great treasure and trouble with it . Prou. 15. 16. but of such as cannot support themselues , but by the beneuolence of others , as the beggar doth .

Tych.

Why , hath not God ordeined such as instruments to trie the hearts of the rich ? and shal we so badlie accompt of beggars ?

Phil.

Yet the workman is more woorthie than the instrument , if he can vse it well : and why ? because the Apostle saith , it is a blessed thing to giue , rather than receiue . Act. 20. 35.

Tych.

If the poore man bee content with his wallet , shall we condemne him for want , seeing we are taught that Godlines is great riches , if a man be content with that he hath . 1. Tim 6. 6.

Phil.

Yet our Sauiour Christ commaunded his Apostles , to vse neither staffe nor wallet . Matth. 10. nor to goe from doore to doore : for as the Wiseman saith , It were better to die than beg . Eccle. 40. 28. It was this that made Paul labor with his owne hands , rather than he would be chargeable to anie .

Tych.

The cause of the rich-mans happines consists party in the poore , as appears by Salomons saying , He that hath mercie on the poore is blessed . Pro. 14. 21. therefore the poore are most to be preferred : for if the cause be adempted , the effect must needes diminish .

Phil.

This argument is not worth any thing : for though I did admit your antecedent , it wold make against your self , if I shuld reason with you by waie of comparison , in this sort ; If he be blessed that bestoweth on the poore , what is he that hath nothing to giue them ? if the conclusion be made by the contrarie , what say you to this ? yet betweene your argument and this , there is neither barrell better herring ; as for your consequent , it is vainly intruded : for if the poore can effect the blessednes of the rich , the cause can neuer faile , considering that our Sauiour Christ saith , ye shal haue the poore alwaies with you . Mat. 26. 11. Therefore in this you doo but resemble the Spaniell , that forsakes the Partridge to baite after birds , when you defend the matter by casting such bolts ; it is better to lay the finger on the mouth , than to speak without modestie : but because it is a follie to striue to go ouer a stile when the gap lieth open , I will leaue off such tearmes as I might well returne , for the imperfection of your positions , and produce such matter as is meete to applie , for the proofe of my proposition . You knowe the question , I were loath to be much about it , lest you should thinke I would begge it . I affirme that the Rich man ( although it bee rare ) that disposeth of his goods like a good Steward , is more blessed than the poore that haue not any thing to giue . All men will graunt this , because it hath been proued euen by the Apostles speech in my former defence . Act 20. 35. Againe , this is another reason ; such kinde of pouertie is to be counted as a crosse , and for this cause , the Wiseman desired to be kept from it , Prouerb . 30. 9. And this was one of the punishments that fell vppon Iob. Salomon willeth vs not to loue sleepe ? and why ? least ( saith he ) thou come vnto pouertie . Therefore , if it were not a punishment , he would not premonish vs to preuent it Prouerb . 20. 13. Yea , and in the same Chapter by this hee dooth adde a double punishment to the sloathfull person : for hee telleth him , because hee will not worke in Winter , he shall begge in Summer , but haue nothing . verse . 4. So that I maye conclude , the rich man is more blessed than the poore in this respect , because God giueth him the benefite of a double blissing , one in this World with aboundance , another ( if he vse them well ) in the world to come more superabundant .

Whether there be degrees of glorie in heauen , or difference of paines in hell . PHilogus .

There is a Question much debated vpon , but not decided ? which although it bee not a principle in Religion to be obserued , yet it is an argument of ambiguitie , not to be ouerslipped . I haue heard , that in heauen all be not equall in excellencie , but ( as some say ) there be degrees of glorie euen amongst the Angels .

Tych.

If you can as readily approoue by reason as you doo shewe me by report such a matter , then I should be the rather induced to beleeue such a misterie .

Phil.

You knowe the Prophet Daniel saith , The godlie shall shine as starres in heauen , Daniel . 12. 3. Now the Apostle Paule saith , that one starre differeth from another in glorie 1. Cor. 15. 41. Hereof it is they say , the Saints shall doo so .

Tychichus

The Apostle hath such a saying , yet this is nothing pertinent to your proposition , because hee speaketh it in another sense . For in that place ( speaking of the resurrection ) he doth not only reproue the Epicure that preferreth the pleasures of this life , but he proueth by way of comparison , that although our bodies bee in some sort glorious vpon earth , yet they shall be much more glorious in heauen , and this he describeth by the difference of starres : but that there should be degrees of glorie , it can no way bee gathered thereby . For that appeareth plainly in the same chapter vers. 48. where the words extend rather to equalitie , As is the heauenly ( saith he ) such are they also that are heauenly . Againe it is said of our Sauiour Christ , that the iust shall shine as the Sunne , Mat. 13. 43. Now , the light of the Sunne exceedeth the light of the stars , yet that were no consequent that the iust should so farre exceede the godly in glorie , for both are but Saints , and neither could haue been saued , if theyr sinnes had not been couered in Christ Iesus : but these similitudes doo shewe vs , that although the puritie of the godlie be obscured in this world by the prauitie of the wicked , as the sunne and starres be often ouercast by reason of the clowdes ; yet in the world to come , when both are seperated by themselues , then the better shall haue his perfect appearance , and shine like starres , yea like the Sunne ( when they are not shadowed ) to the great glorie of themselues , and the vtter griefe of the vngodly .

Phil

My meaning is not to refell your reasons , but to recite such as I haue heard : and amongst others , this they alledge , that in the palace of an earthly Prince , there be manie seuerall roomes , & in the house of our heauenly King there be manie dwelling places , so saith our Sauiour Christ Iohn . 14. 2. Now as there is neuer a roome in an earthlie Pallace , but hath his seuerall Office , and euerie Office doth somewhat differ in dignitie from another , so say they , there be manie mansions in heauen , and euerie one according to the worthinesse of his placing , is preferred to the greater glorie .

Tych.

As though hee which is the omnipotent Creator would take a patterne by the proceedings of his Creatures , when wee reade that those things which are highly esteemed amongst men are but abhomination in his sight . Our Sauiour Christ vsed that speach to his disciples for their consolation because he perceiued they were much troubled to thinke of his departure , as though when hee were gone , he would either vtterlie forget them , or goe to such a place , that there should be no space for them to be where hee was : therefore our Sauiour Christ , to comfort them in these crosse cogitations , dooth nothing else but by these manie dwelling places , amplifie and set foorth the largenes of his heauenlye house to assure them they ( as the faithfull ) should be where he was : for although the gate bee verie straight to enter , heauen is wide enough for those that shall inherite it . This I take to be the true meaning of our Sauiour Christ : for albeit hee maketh mention of manie mansions , we must not think there bee anie distinct dwellings in heauen , ( much lesse any degrees of glorie ) for it is written , the godly shall all meete in one place in Gods presence , and minister a like seruice to his Maiestie . Apocalipse cap. 7. ver. 15.

Philogus

To prooue there is difference of glorie in Heauen , they proceede further and say ; The Apostles shall bee more glorious than the rest : because they shall sit vpon twelue Thrones , and iudge the twelue Tribes of Israel . Matthew . ca. 19. vers. 28.

Tychicus

I remember our Sauiour Christ saith in another place to his Disciples , that they shall eate and drinke at his Table in his Kingdome , Luke . 22. 30. yet I doo not thinke so . And in the selfe same place , hee saith , They shall all sit on seates , and iudge the twelue Tribes of Israel ; yet I doo not take it so . For those Similitudes and sayings , import nothing else but their assuraunce to bee partakers of his glorie . My reason for the first , is this , In heauen is neither eating nor drinking , because wee shall reade , that there wee shall neither hunger nor thirst anie more . Apocalips. 7. 16. Esay . 49. 10. My reason for the latter is this , The Apostles shall not iudge vs , because they , we , and all , shall bee iudged by Christ Iesus . Symbolum .

Phi.

They rest not so but referre themselues to a saying of saint Paul to approue some difference of dignitie in the Saints , because he saith that they shal iudge the world . 1. Cor. 6. 2.

Tich.

This assertion is answered by my former , yet for your better resolution I will explaine it by a temporall constitution : you knowe that when a prisoner ( being a hainous malefactor ) hath his accusation laid open apparantly to all that be present ( although the chiefe office of giuing sentence belongeth to the Iudge ) yet all the rest that bee there may easily iudge what punishment that prisoner deserues , euen so in this respect the Saints may be said to iudge the world when our sinnes and liues are laid open manifestly in the presence of so many millions of Angels and Saints ( albeit it appertaineth properly to Christ to iudge vs ) yet it is an easie matter for them to iudge what we are , and in this sense it may very well be said , we shall stand helples before so many Iudges as haue excelled vs in good workes ; for the sight of such as are innocent is sufficient to iudge those that haue iniuried them , yea , it will strike such a horror into their hearts that their very thoughts ( as the Apostle saith ) wil accuse or excuse them Rom. 2 15. 16. at that day .

Phi

Yet they leaue not here but aleadge this for a further probation of the matter , they say that as we haue on earth Bishops , so there are which differ from them in dignitie , which are intituled Archbishops , so in heauen there are Angels of great glory , and yet there are Archangels which are of greater glory .

Tych.

This conclusion is nothing forcible , because your comparison is fallible , for although manie be preferred more than others to higher dignitie in this world , yet their inferiors may bee equall to them in excellencie , ( considering how these earthly preferments come to men oftentimes asmuch for their reuenewes , as their vertues ) : now we knowe with God is no respect of persons , neither doth he regard the promotion of a man by his title , but the puritie of his life by his workes : and therfore , albeit it pleaseth God ( of his good pleasure ) to call vs by sundrie names , as Archangels , Angels , Saints , Citizens , Iust , Righteous , Children , Heires , Sonnes , and such like , it is no consequent anie shoulde differ in glorie from another ; for what greater glorie can anie haue more , than to be like him that is most glorious ? 1. Iohn . 3. 2. and to sit vpon the Throne with him that shall iudge vs ? Apoc. 3. 21. Yet this is spoken generally to all the faithfull .

Phil.

I haue read that some of the Prophets as Esay , was cut in peeces with a sawe of wood , Ieremie was stoaned to death , Amos thrust into the temples of the head with a great nayle : others , as the Apostle saith , were tried by mockings , scourgings , &c. Hebr. 11. 36 , 37. yea in our times , manie haue suffered as Martyrs for the testimonie of the truth . And shall not these which haue indured such extreame torments in this world farre aboue theyr brethren , possesse some greater glorie in heauen than they ?

Tych.

If you had said possesse some greater ioy in heauen , then it might haue bred a question : for , if in this world ( where all our pleasures are but purgatories ) when one that is poore doth attaine riches , which are but momentany , if he taketh more ioy by remembrance of his miserie past , than hee that was neuer pinched with penurie , then no doubt , in the world to come ( where the least pleasure is vnspeakable ) it cannot be , but that he , which hath bin most afflicted here , shall conceiue and receiue farre more exceeding ioy , than he which hath been touched with lesse tribulation , & yet the ioyes of heauen , are fitlie compared to vessells filled with licour of all quantities , for euerie man shall haue his full measure there . Againe , it pleaseth God to afflict all whom he loueth , & yet he doth it not in like manner and measure to all . For as his giftes and graces are not of like excellencie in euerie one , so his afflictions are not of like equalitie to all ; yet that argueth not anie should exceede others in glorie in heauen , so they indure that crosse with patience , which God doth lay vpon them on earth . There bee two speciall reasons , that make much against you in this matter : one is this . All the afflictions a man maye suffer cannot saue him , because when he hath done his best , he is but an vnprofitable seruant sayth our Sauiour Christ . Luk. 1● . 10. Another reason is this , no man maye hope to haue greater glorie than his brother : because they themselues ( for all their suffrings ) are not worthy the glory of the life to come . Rom. 8. 18. Therefore , let euerie one reioyce ( as Peter perswadeth vs ) inasmuch as he is counted worthie to be partaker of Christs sufferings : for , as by faith the thiefe was saued vpon the gallowes at the last gaspe , euen so all men are saued by that meanes when they haue perpetrated asmuch as is possible . The Similitude of our Sauiour Christ is sufficient to satisfie you in this behalfe ; it is concerning the housholder that hired laborers into his vineyard at all howres in the day : he that came early & wroght in the heate of the day , had no greater reward than those which were idle and wrought but an hower ▪ seeing the hyre is indifferent to all , none shall haue glorie greater than another .

Phil.

Yet to proue the matter more apparantly , they drawe a reason by the contrarie , and say , that seeing there is difference of paines in hell amongst the wicked , it must needes followe there must bee difference of degrees in heauen amongst the Angels ; for there is inequalitie aswell of good as of euill .

Tych.

Although your antecedent can neuer approoue your consequent , yet I would bee glad to knowe such places as may prooue those difference of paines in hell ?

Phil.

Our Sauiour Christ saith , he that knowes not his masters will , and yet doth it not , shal be beaten with some stripes ; but he that knoweth it and doth the contrary shal be beaten with many stripes , this they alleadge for one . The same our Sauiour speking of the hypocrits in another place , saith , that they shal receiue the greater damnation . This saying is inuiolable ( which they likewise produce . Also our Sauior Christ , ( speaking of Chorazin & Bethsaida , he telleth them that it shal be easier for Tyrus & Sydon than they at the day of iudgement , Luke . 10. 13 , 14. This is another notable obiection of theirs .

Tych.

I must needs confesse that it standeth with great reason , where God most abundantly bestoweth his benefites , there the abuse and ingratitude deserue to be most punished , yet ( that there should be degrees of glorie in heauen because there are difference of paines in hell ) it is against all reason : for the sinnes which drawe vs to hel are manie , and differ one from another , but the mean wherby we be drawen to heauen , is but one , and indifferent to all : if euerie sinne deserueth death , it shoulde appeare , the more grieuous sinne shuld haue the greater damnation , but seeing no merit can deserue heauen , the meanes are not manie can effect our saluation , but onely faith in Christ Iesus .

FINIS .