BEe it so , sithence you will needs haue it so , prouided that you be not ouerhastie to communicate it , for that may breed danger to me , and no great good to your selfe . If it be the same M. Some , that read somtime a Lecture in my L. of Leicesters house , then is he quite new founded since I saw him , and his spirit it should seeme , strangely vapored vpward into some loftier climate them was vsual with him in those daies , you can remember I am sure , when he was taken for an other manner of man of a soft constitution , and a simple harted man , as most of his coate within the land . Albeit that euen then when he gaue this glamse of sinceritie and mildnes , there were some you knowe that stood in contention with vs about him , in that he made no bones ( as they then saide ) to be adaylie nonresident from his charge , and withal closely and slily to glut downe a pretty prebend or 2. to help his disgestion , which as you and I were then hardly drawen to beleeue , thinking all this to be but injuriously fathered vppon him , so yet if that should be true as the knight giueth out , that my L. of Leycester shold vse any such speeches of him , That he feared be would prooue but an ambitious foole when al was don . Remembring what hath fallen out since , I promise you it was shrewdly aymed of my Lord , and we must needs yeld he had a notable eie , that could in so smoth a countenance , and so close a carriage of a man , spie out neuerthelesse the cloude of ambition afar of : it was not for nought it should seem , that he was so long emplojed by her maiestie in affaires of State .

But it is no reason you would say , that euery thing should be measured after the partiall and passionate judgment of men howe greate soeuer they be : very true , and therefore to cleare the suspition , and to wipe away al that might seeme through prejudice in any sort to bleamish the man , let your D. hardly speake for himselfe , for index animi sermo , or as he him selfe saith , ex vnguibus leonem , of th' abundance of the hart the mouth speaketh , and these ( if I be not deceiued , ) you shal finde to be his owne words , which som think had bin fitter forfytie works against the landing of the Spanyards , then for grounded reasons and arguments to decide a controuersie by . But I wil not brand them with any cole of mine , let them weigh as they wil in the judgment of the wise , I will neither peize downe the ballance at th' one end , nor lighten it at th' other : only because you presse me to tel you what I thinke , I will first take some paines to drawe you a callender of his owne speeches as I finde them scattered in his book , and so leaue the judgment to your selfe : nay as master Doct. telleth the ignorant welchman , I wil not in this case refuse the judgment of his owne disciples , if they haue any dram of equitie in them , so that they remember to follow their masters rule , and bring with them iudicium non preiudicium , harken then I pray you a while , to the sound of this learned trumpet , and tel me your opinion when wee meete .

First in the very title of his booke , he beginneth thus . If the bare outside be so glittered , what may we thinke of the pearles within ? A refutation of many anabaptisticall , blasphemous , and popish absurdities touching Magistracie , Ministery , Church , Scripture , and Baptisme : And then he goeth on very sweetly thus .

M. Penri ( saith he ) is very ignoraunt , and his treatise very sillie & corrupt stuffe : His booke is a fardle of grose errors : none account of it but such as are of the fantasticall crue , men extremely both proud and ignorant : his inconstancie proceedes of a vaine humor , which as a whirlwinde doth strangely carye and ouercarie him : his grosse errors : his absurd , anabaptisticall and blasphemous fansies . I dare be bold to say , that is the spiders webb be good cloath , and the cockatrice eggs holsome meate , then such points as I resute in this treatise , are very excelent diuinitie . His speach is very grosse : his reasons are most absurd and childish . This is intollerable sawcines : Inscitia audax : None so bold as blind bayard . This is a grosse and popish error , a popish collection , a most absurde heresie : your arreast is like Goliabs curse . M. PENRI hath troubled heuen , church , commonwelth & himself . Heauen , for he is sawcie with God himselfe : Churche , for in steade of treasure , he hath offered it very dangerous poyson . Common wealth , for he hath vndermined the chaire of the Magistrate , I hope such conies will be looked vnto . Himselfe , for he hath broached many proud , blasphemous , and anabaptisticall fansies . The marke that M. PENRI leuels at , is I feare me , to shake handes with the anabaptisticall recusants , some part of his writings looke shrewdly that way . I make very mean account as yet of your judgment : you haue broached grosse errors : thanke yourself for sowing such giddie fansies : you are too imperiall . If my reasons were sutable to your answers , they were verie wofull : your tongue cannot disgrace me , your tongue is no sclander . Sus Mineruam : your dealing with me , is neither honest nor schoolelike : if you see not this , you are starke blind . The wrangling spirits are the more for your absurd writings : They which are so forward in iangling of these points , are either of your humor , which is very bad , or Anabaptisticall recusants which is somewhat worse .

Will you any more of this ? It is you see but a myrie tracke that I tread in , and yet the farther one wades , the more quicke sandes and quauemires he is like to finde : for thus your doctor goeth on .

I am sorie for your heauinesse : I detest your anabaptisticall fancies : your gift in answering is very rare : you make wash way of the weightiest arguments : you bewray intollerable both pride and ignorance : you are one of the strangest diuines that euer I heard of , very ignorant , very bold , very absurd : your iudgment is not worth a rush : your dealing with me is most absurd : you haue grossely abused me : you are neere driuen when you vse such beggerly shifts to bumbaste your treatise : Honest matrons vse no paintings , but harlots doe : grosse errors haue neede of suche vermiliom : the vaile of mallice did hinder your sight : This odious instance doth best become your spirit : It is sutable to the rest of your writings , most absurde and childish : your absurdities are many and grosse : if you recant not your anabaptisticall errors , I will account very basely of you . The name of Maiestie is to costly a garment for so lepprous a bodie as your treatise is : It is the maner of all sectaries to vse lofly & maiestical words , that their ignorant followers may commend them aboue the skies . My answere is , that you are a wicked slanderer : such dealing is an argument of a vile nature , and a wrangling spiryt : if I were of your humor , I could chase and pursue you hotely for your inconstancie and error . In your treatise you haue sowne grosse errors thicke & threfold . Are not your disciples most vnhappy that depend one you as one an other Pope ? This bewraieth your grosse ignorance : if my reasons were as weake as your sensles answers , they were strange stuffe : what meane Scholler , what russet coat in the country would shape such an answere ? your wittes I thinke were a woolgathering : this answeere I thinke came out of Barbarie , I hope you are ashamed of it by this time : did euer any student deale so childishly ? I see by his answeres what a deepe clark he is , your weightie obiections haue neither succum nor sanguinem : they haue no pith in them , they are lighter then any feather , and bewray your ignorance : your lusty speches cannot daunt me : it is but a visor . I haue bin long acquainted with the boisterous speches of such ignorant and bold companions as you are . salis pro imperio , you are by your leaue a litle to Lordly : had I nothing to thinke of but your absurd fansies : you imagin very basely of me : I doe but touch this grosse and blasphemous paradox of yours : what base ware you commend vnto vs for excellent diuinitie ?

Howe think you ? Wil you any more yet ? Or are you not halfe weary of reading ? Well I hope nowe if my hands doe happen to smell any thing vnsauorly , you wil of curtesie beare with me , because you see I haue bin al this while gathering of weedes . But alasse is this all thinke you ? No assure your selfe , there is yet a vile deale of such behinde , for these ( I take it ) are of the same forge :

He that would saile after your compasse for diuinitie matters , should proue as giddy as a goose ( saith your doctor : ) you haue euil lucke : you are an vnpleasant musition : you haue kept strange coiles : you lay on load , but it is fulmen non tonitru , black cloudes but no raine : I praye God to keepe the people of the land , from such blinde guides as the ignorant sorte are , & from such shamelesse & phantastical guides as you master Penry are : if you will deale plainly neuer piddle any longer , goe through stitch with al. Seing you are ouer shooes , aduenture ouer bootes to confute Caluin , giue th' onset , if you faile , you shall loose no credit of learning , for you neuer had any as yet . Qui semel vericundiae limites , &c. you knowe the rest &c. M. Peurye is in his ruffe . His pride and ignorance appeare in their coulers : if you be not void of grace be sory and ashamed of your blasphemous lewdnes : you haue vsed th' Apostle as Cacus did Hercules oxen . Did any student euer broth such sluffe as this ? Many Carrmen in London can make better arguments : your writing haue nether grace nor salt : your absurd collections are euidences of your spirit : vnskilful preachers are your bulwarks and blockhouses to support your fancies : you haue shotte but many scores wide : you are one of the strangest turners that euer I knewe : you haue turned out such a deale of grosse diuinitie vppon me and others , that we are weary & you may be ashamed of it : you would neuer I thinke haue vented such motley stuffe as this , if you had thought it would haue bene looked on . Manye learned condemne your treatise for a foolish and fantastical bable : you are so sawey with the principal of the religion , in this noble land . I make more accoumpt I tel you of one Caluin then of a thousand Penries : you haue a special guist in varying a phrase , for that you shal bear the bell and the claper to : it is a blinde and beggerly shist : your arguments are Scopae dissolutae , very loose ware & slenderly trussed together : more he tels master Penry , that there is no reason he should haue such libertie of printing as he , for saith he , you broach and Print grosse errors & anabaptisticall fansies : so doe not I : you refused to offer & submit your writings , to the view & alowance of the Magistrate : so doe not I : you woulde haue me procure your judicial hearing , &c. your request is not equal . Nec te noui nec vbi sis . Speake for your selfe in Gods name : so will I. If you will reuoke your error & heresies , otherwise I will not open my lippes for any such as you are . Likewise in the same place , Master Penty hauing shewed that he did reuerence him for his guifes , is thus cut short , and vncurteously rewarded for his paines . Be sory saith he for your selfe . Detest your fansies , your reuerence I make verie mean account of : Gods truth is as deare to me as to you . I hope it hath had & shall haue more defence by me then by you , there is som reson it should . And afterwards he commeth vppon him thus : you are not ( saith he ) Master of the sentences as Peter Lambarde was : if you were , the sound diuinitie that is taught in Cambridge & Oxforde should be cried downe : and your strange fansies should be ruled cases . The refutation of your blasphemus , Anabaptistical , popish , & proud errors by me , is I am sure a performance of a special duty to almighty God , my Prince , and this Church . Greate words shall not fraie me : if your ignorant disciples wil stil magnifie you , it shal not be strange to me , they doe but their kinde : you vse goodly words sometimes , but your proude malice wil appeare , it cannot be hidden : your heretical absurdities in your treatise , & your shamelesse dealing with our Magistrates doe crie aloud , &c. I praie God with all my hart , to keepe me & all such as loue religion from such as you and the fantastical sort are : you are strange cattell : you hope that I will graunt you the cause , a vain hope , for I think scorne to be one of ignorant Penries disciples , that is a proude and ignorant Anababtist . If you will haue anie thing at my hands you must get it by force of argument . If you thinke I wil come of otherwise , you are in a wrong box , for I entend not to be at your whystle : yea I require and charge you in the name of God , ( if you be not voide of grace ) that you consesse your ignorance and detest your errors , &c. Thus haue you my resolution , and yet you are no conqueror as Coesar was , nor I ouerthrowne as Pompei was : if your arguments were as tidie , as your speeches are consident , there were no dealing with you : I perceiue the greatest barkers are not the forest byters : Blinde Bartimeus could haue espied this : you may command and controlle , and deale with others as Strato did , that was king ouer beasts , &c.

How now if a man may aske you , are you not neere cloyed by this ? What thinke you nowe of my L. of Leycester his prophesie ? Was not the figure well sett that hit so right of the mans constitution ? Yet is this the man you see , that can for all this tel his aduersary and that ful solemly , that the best conqueast he can haue is , to ouercome his pride by humility , yea and more , tel him plainly that he liketh better Humile peccatum , quam superbam innocentiam : he that wil so often and so peremptorily lay haughtines and pride to an other man , had he not neede thinke you to be a litle clearer from that infection himselfe , then your doctor sheweth him selfe to be ? But it may be he will mend the matter in some other places of his booke , and it is odds he wil not alwaies be in this key : like enough , and therefore let him speake once againe for himselfe . About his . 77. page as I take it , where M. Penri doth seeme to say , that we can hardly haue any sealed assurance in our harts , that we receaue any sacrament at the dumbe ministers hands , because wee haue no such promise of the Lord , and our assurance must alwaies be grounded vpon the promises of God , marke I pray you howe M. Some refuteth this :

You are at warre ( saith he ) with your selfe : you wordes agree like harpe and harrow : your disciples are sit vessels to receiue anie liquor of you , but men of learning and wisdome are otherwise affected : your dealing is absurde and dangerous , absurd for it is void of truth , dangerous for it would breed confusion . The Magistrates thanks be to god , neither do nor will suffer this bad course of yours : if they should , sancies would as weedes grow too fast , and this noble land should receiue more hurt than your head is worth : I doubt not of their godlie wisedome : The miserable estate of Germanie heretofore by reason of sectaries , may and will awaken them : If you be restrained from your grosse errors , as some are verie iustlye , you must not crie , persecution persecution , your note must be , Poena persidiae , that is , that you are iustly met with , otherwise you sing out of tune . And not long after this , he payeth him againe with a syllogisme or two in the same figure . I am perswaded , that if you be not well conjured by the magistrate , you will prooue a strange bodie : you are far gone alreadie , strange fansies haue almost consumed you : The Magistrates discipline is the fittest medicine for you : if that will not recouer you , your disease is desperate . Yea & now he hath said it , he will stand to it , he meanes not you shall see him blush at the matter : For page 155. he addeth : If either M. Penrie , or anie of his fantasticall crue , shall thinke much of my speach , I do not passe : I confesse freelie , that sharpe words are not sufficient plaisters for such proud sores : I hope the magistrate will consider further of him and such as he is . Duro nodo , durus cuneus , &c. that is , a wedge of iron is fittest for knottie wood . Besides al this , he is vp with blasphemous against him , I thinke aboue a dozen times , and in that good Christian moode of his , it pleaseth him full sweetly , to call M. Penri , an hereticall Catabaptist : and of his charitie , to liken and compare him to Demetrius the siluer Smith : to Alexander the Copper smith : to the wicked women in the 13. of Ezekiel : to the gracelesse people in the time of Esai , Ieremie and Micheas : To wicked Amaziah in Ieroboams court : To Athalia that wicked trayteresse : To harlots that paint themselues : To Neuius the clamorous companion : To Thrasilaus the frantike man : To the monstrous sonne , that cudgelled his father : To Nestorias the heretik : To Photinus a grosse heretike : To Aetius a pestilent heretik : To the Donatists , the Papists , the Pelagians , and the Anabaptists : To Campion : To Goliab : To Simon Magus : To Iulian the Apostata : To murdering Ioab : To that bloody beast Ismael , that shedd teares , but they were Crocodiles teares : and last of all , to make vp the mouth of all , to that honest man Iudas that betrayed Christ . And like inough , if he could haue founde out any viler image , to haue drawne vs his portraiture by , it should not haue bene left out of this wor●hy rolle : The best is , himselfe tels vs , that the greatest barkers , are not the sorest byters . Therfore our hope is , M. Some will do little hurt with his teeth , he is so vnreasonable a barker .

Of al which , what other confutation should a wise man make than vah quam sordide : quis suror que rabia ? Sure if your doctor had conceiled his name , and sett only these 3. letters R. S. D. in the forehead of his booke , his frends would rather haue taken it for Roger Salter Drouer : then for Robert Some Doctor : for they would neuer haue suspected that any such raggs as these should haue fallen from a man of that grauitie , so rich in guifts and graces as they take M. Some to bee : why , is this your manner of canuasing of Controuersies in CAMBRIDGE ? or is it your custome nowe a daies , to drawe the most of your arguments à sustibus & sascibus , à vinculis & carceribus Doe you remember howe you were woont to be girding at me for our Oxforde Doctors , as D. Kennall , D. Barnard &c. and to tell me that Barnardus non videt omnia , with many such like glicks ? In requitall whereof , if I should nowe lay D. Bridges , and D. Some in your dish , I thinke your aduantage woulde not be great , Wel howsoeuer you may out go vs in other respects , I hope in one regard , you will not bee ouerhasty to compare with vs : that is , in Modesty and Mildenesse of spirit . For to goe no farther , shewe me if you can , a Cambridge man that is a match to M. Reynolds , I meane not in learning but in mildenesse : or shewe me an Oxforde man that is a match to M. Some , I meane not in learning but in bitternesse . Surely I am perswaded ( I speake it not I protest of any partial affection ) that that one worke alone of D. Reinolds against Harte , that wretched Iesuite , may therein be as a patterne and glasse to your whole vniuersitie while the world standeth . I doubt not but you haue reade it , and then you cannot but knowe , against what kinde of person he dealeth in that conference , namely against one alredy atteinted and conuicted of treason , in him against al such as were sworne en●mies to our religion and state , such as had long thirsted for the destruction of her maiestie , and th' ouerthrowe of God his church , and viler men you knowe , there could not lightly be vnder the sunne . If any people in the world shoulde mooue a man to glaunce out into passion , or his pen to impacience , it were like enough to these . And yet I beleeue ( prie as narrowly as you can , ) you shal hardly pike out any one bitter , evenimed or dispiteful sentence brought in of purpose , only to wound and disgrace his aduetsarie in the whole booke . See then the difference of spirits : your doctor dealeth not with any such manner of man I trowe : for M. Penri , howe vnlearned soeuer he be , ( as M. Some maketh him worse then a drudge and a turnespit in al maner of knowledg ) or howsoeuer he may vary from others in judgment , is thought yet of those that knowe him to be very honest and godly of life , and I haue heard that he is one that vsually haunteth the holy excersises of religion , walking in al peaceable obedience to God and her maiestie , and that he hath bin a meanes to reclaime and cal back some that for want of a preaching minnistery , were euen at the brinke to decline to Brownisme : this I haue heard , howsoeuer it be , if you haue reade his writings , I appeale to your owne hart , whether you thinke him the childe of God or no , being in the judgment of some , a thing vnpossible that any man should write as he writeth , vnlesse hee were endewed with some good measure of Gods spirit , if it be so , then that he be the childe of God , and that he be wide in this point , ( as for mine owne parte I wil not trust him that neuer held error , ) how happy had it bene for him , if he had had M. Reinolds his aduersarie in liew of M , Some , of whome he might happen haue learned more and bene disgraced lesse . For he that dealeth so mildely with an ennemie , howe christianly thinke you would he haue intreated a brother : whie alasse , the question being , Whether we may be assured to receiue a sacrament at the dumbe ministers hands , is it not possible for a christian in humblenesse to handle this question , vnlesse he runne to Vulcan the blacksmith for weapons , or bring Hercules furens vpon the stage , as M. Some doth , setting out his aduersarie in the vilest and most deformed features that he can deuise ? and yet he knowes him not neither . Nowe where it pleaseth him to saye , that M. PENRI hath just as many learned of his side , as H. N. the prince of the Familie of Loue : as I woulde not wish M. D. to be therein ouer hastie to sweare , so yet if it were so , he knows that that ouer-worne argument drawne onely from the multitude , can be no stronger for him , then it hath bene heretofore for the papists . But it shoulde fall out nowe ( this being a point that hath not beene heretofore greatly looked into ) that there should be any more of M. PENRIES minde hereafter , I doe not see but that M. Some may in a sort thanke himselfe for it , and that among many other reasons , this may very well be one , that your Doctor hath caried himselfe so loosely and distemperedly in the cause , seeking rather to plague the man , then to cleare the matter . For when men ( desirous euen in simplicitie of heart to learne the trueth ) shall sensiblye perceaue that so famous and learned aman as M. Some reputeth him selfe to bee , litle inferiour in aunciencie , ( as some thinke ) M. Whitguist , can none otherwise assaile or defend the cause , then by houlding ( as it were ) a naked dagger in hand , striuing by all meanes to drawe bloude of his aduersarie , and crying out aloude on the Magestrate , the Magestrate , as if he had solde his logicke to become a jorney man in the shambles : will not this thinke you bring many into a mammering , and make them doubt of that they neuer doubted of ? And yet what wil you say if after al this rage & choller , he be so kind harted to grant M. Penri the cause ? Surely I am deceaued else , and therefore I pray you tel me your judgment . This among others is one of of M. Penries arguments .

To the maior or first proposition M. D. saith thus : If you meane ( as I thinke you doe , ) every ministery of the word in the newe Testament I dissent not from you : So that he graunts the maior you see . To the minor or second proposition he saith flatly thus . No man doubteth 185 of this vnlesse he be voide of common sense : And yet there are as learned as M. Some , that dissenting from M. Penri in the point haue denied the minor , aleaging that though the persons them selues could not preach , yet their ministery & Function wherevnto they were called , might iustlie he saide to be a preaching ministerie . But I hope these men ( howe lerned soeuer ) wil henceforth reuerse their judgment , in that M. Some hath branded them al with this marke , that they are void of common sence . Thus you see howe easilie a wise man may overshut him selfe when he is in his ruffe , and therefore it is most rrue as one saide once . That a pacient minde discerneth aright , but a passionate hart seldome seeth the trueth : here you see your learned doctor hath granted the poore ignorant Welchman , both the maior and the minor , so that I see no shift in the worlde , but only M. Bridgis his shift , that is to deny the conclusion .

Well ( howsoeuer in discretion or otherwise , in a kind of conceitednesse , he may happely overshut him selfe ) you tel me that questionlesse he is learned : It may be so , neither wil I say against it : I knowe there may be wine enough in the seller , when there is non in the cuppe , and it may bee that M. Some in this encoumpter against M. Penri , did chuse rather to look vp his learning against the rising of some billowe or tempest , then to stand powring it out against so weak an aduersarie , whom his conceite might casely ennough be ouerthrowne with a blast of words : But the thing we stand vpon is this , that howe learned soeuer he be , he hath shewed litle of it in this treatise . And that if those worthy men ( whome in hart I reuerence , and whose guises I admire ) M. Fulke and M. Whitaker I meane , had acquited them selues noe better against their seueral aduersaries , then M. Some hath done against his , your famous vniuersitie that you boast of , had bene like enough to haue receiued a scarre in the face long ere this , and therefore let your D. ruffle it neuer so much in bigge words and countenances , yet I can tel you , if he releeue vs not better in his next supply then he hath done hithertoe , ( be he as lerned as he wil ) we Oxforde men shal thinke that M. Penri hath a greate dealo more cause to feare th' Archb. his purseuant , then your D. penne . For what call you lerning in this age ? I would you would your selfe take some paines to draw an Analisis of your Doct. booke and then tel me whether we judge amisse . For mine owne parte I confesse to you I haue viewed it and reuiewed it , and I finde very litle in it , but that which may easily be drawen to one of these 4 : heads .

The 4. principall heades or common places of M. Somes book 1 Bitter and spightful speaches , to bring his aduersarie into danger . 2 Bare and naked assertions , as if it were sufficient that himselfe doth say so . 3 Needlesse positions that few or none euer doubted of . 4 The bare authoritie and Judgement of men without ground .

In these , with the begging of the question , and the praising of himselfe , lieth the sum of his whole booke , I beleeue , I say , you cannot bringe me many thinges out of his treatise , but it may easily be referred to on of these . And these you knowe be noe such fortresses but that they may easily be battered and laide flatt to th' earth by a weker Cannon then euer M. Penri shote in his life . By the way I pray you remember , that I doe not in any sorte take exceptions to M. Somes learning in general , that is , to that knowledge which he fansieth to be in him selfe , I meddle not with that : onely to the learning which it hath pleased him to giue vs a tast of in this booke , this is the thing that I thinke a very meane Scholler may justly complaine of without danger . And I am verely perswaded , ( I beare soe much reuerence to the man ) that if it were his doing , he wrote it altogether without studie , as it were vpon a spleene , or in hast as he was riding to Lambeth . Nowe for the first point which is his bitter & over-passionate speaches , I thinke you haue heard inough already , for no longer a treatise then that is , I dare say you thinke it was enough euea of conscience . For the second , vz. his autos ephe , that is his bare and peremptory assertions , if you finde that in any eight penny booke of some 40. leaues or there abouts , ( for I think of it selfe it be not much bigger ) your D. hath cloyed our eares with aboue 400. of those speches , without Master Some hath in his book , aboue 400. naked assertions . either sappe or salt in them , will you not thinke it strange ? To tel you the very truth , I haue taken some paines to reckon them lease by leafe , and I finde them as I tel you aboue 400. much after the nature & complection of these : you are not ready : you are to seeke in the principles of diuinity : you knowe not your ignorance : your speaches are very idle : it is noe greate matter what you say : your bolt is soone shotte , your water is very shallowe : your eies are not matches , such trisles are toe base for your greate spirits : your conclusion is nothing else but an . Anabaptistical florish : your argument is very nought & fancie : your argument is as weake as a staffe of reede : your argument is as strong as a roppe of sand , euery childe may see the weakenesse of it , but I must be content to put it vp , it is such ware as you haue . He that wanteth woode must burne turse : your writings are like the winde . This beate of yours is like a blaze of thornes , it will last but a while : your cause is nought : your armor is not of proofe : your diuinitie is as a lowe ebbe : your arguments are pitiful : your answeres are sily , &c. And if I should goe one I thinke I shoulde tyre you : I hope you will witnesse with me , though there may be some little eloquence , yet there is noe greate learninge , Logicke , or diuinitie in this . It is sure , but the good luck that some men haue ouer others , for if poore M. Penri had written thus , he should haue bene chronicled I warrant you , for a cobling welchman while he had liued .

For the thirde Piller of M. Doctors booke , that is needelesse positions whereof there is smale controuersie , I thinke I shal not neede to wander farr to finde your presidents , for M. Some himselfe in the beginning of both his bookes , doth lay them downe to vs in a role : it were to no vse and a mere spending of time to runn through them all , and therefore I will onely recorde some fewe of them for a tast of the rest .

A godly prince ( saith he ) may and ought to compell his subiects ( if any refuse ) to th' externall seruice of God .

This being a matter so notably & throughlie handeled alreadie by M. Fulke , and M. Wyborne against Howlet , that almost there cannot any thing be added to that which they haue sett downe , I muse your D. would be at cost to print vs a newe Almanacke of the last yeare , I doe not knowe of any that professe the holy religion of God in soundenesse , and sinceritie , that will denie this . And therefore I dare say for M. Penri , that he wil willingly with hart and hande subscribe to it , yea and I thinke he will if neede be , adde one clauze more to it for the farther strengthening , and confirmation of the princes authoritie , vz. That the same Prince that hath power de jure to doe this , ought also to compel every preaching minister to be ordinarily resident on his charge : And if that were put in execution , I thinke M. Some and some others , should not be suffered to roue and range vp and downe as they doe , neglecting theire charges , and breathinge after chaplainship , promotions , and I knowe not what wel , after this he telleth vs forsooth : That able teachers ought to be prouided for the Churches , soe much as can be : for the furtherance whereof ( if we may beleue his worde ) him selfe hath bene a very earnest & humble suppliant both by writinge and speach , yea and he hath receiued very comfortable answere of very greate 54. & honorable personages , &c. and is not that wel ? Therfore ye hotspirited men wheresoeuer you be , ye may nowe sit downe and surcease your suites and supplications to her maiestie , and the parliament , for you see M. Some hath dealt in it , and hath receued a comfortable and honorable answere . Nay farther he is not afraide to tel vs . That the teachers of religion must haue maintenance . That God blesseth those kingdomes with peace which promote the Gospel . That the church of England is the visible Church of Christ . That magistracie is M. Somes Booke cases Gods ordinance . That the reading of the holy Scriptures doeth edifie . That the scripture is of credit it selfe . That a sermon is not of th' essence of a sacrament . That they whiche are once baptized , must not be rebaptized , &c. Theseyou see be good sure pointes all , but I dare say you think there be non of them very waighty Schole points for all that . For mine owne parte I would bee loath I tel you , to be opponent in any one of them , for I feare my braine could scarse deuise any probable Sylogisme to shake or batter them with . Nay though I confesse my selfe to be one of the porest haglers that euer our vniuersitie breade , yet I durst by Gods assistance defend any on of these against a 100. D. Somes , if it were possible to haue so many in a land . And I tel you true , when I first ranne ouer these your D. deepe misteries , I thought certainly I had bene at one of M. Deane of Westminster his sermons , because he good soule , seldome handeleth any controuersies , but tels the people in good sound english : That vertue is good , and vice is euil . And that me thinks I durst defend my selfe ( if neede were , ) aswel as any of the rest of M. Somes authenticall principles .

But you shal see he will goe deeper then thus . For as he hath taken paines ( wee thanke him , ) to sett vs downe a proper short Catechisine in the ende of his booke , to proue to M Penries face , That the regenerate cannot fulfill the law of god : so you shall perceiue that when occasion serues , he will not spare him no more then another man , were he better then he is , & therefore he feares not to tell him , and that roundly to : If you denie ( saith he ) that the scriptures read by vnpreaching ministers do edifie in any sort , you speake blasphemously : yea and to the same effect in another place , he boldly layeth before vs , certaine vncontrollable oracles , but yet such as we haue heard talke of before : He that disliketh ( saith he ) the reading of holy scriptures is a Swink fieldian heretike : He that mistiketh the administration of the sacraments is a Massalian heretike : He 184. Mast. Sines booke cases . that misliketh th' invocation of our gratious god , is a filthie Athiest . Cocksure , your Dan●y lay his life on it , and twentie to one , that th' ignorant Welshman , with all the fantasticall crue , will subscribe to this without racking or imprisonment . For these be called questions without controuersie . Alasse , that reading doth aedifie , considering what a great auncient M. Some is , might very well , for any thing we see , have bene left to one of his Iunior pupils to haue declaimed in , because it was neuer yet , our happs to meete with that man ( if he were a scholler ) that doubted of it . In deed if he had laid downe the question thus , Whether bare and simple reading be any part of the ministers office , this peraduenture might haue bred a demur euen among the learned : otherwise , that a minister may read , and by that his reading , some aedification may arise , as also that he may sing , or doe some other good thinges joyntly with the congregation , we make no question : But when he hath read or song , and done all this , then the question is : whether he haue done any thing that is peculiarly annexed , or appropriate to his office , more then to another man : For we suppose that the office of a minister , standeth onely in these 3 , Preaching , Prayer , Sacraments . I speake not here of discipline , but onely of doctrine . I knowe verye well , that there are many lawfull and commendable preparations or circumstances , before a man come to th' execution of his office , which cannot for all that , rightly be called anye part of the office it self . As for example , a Iudge may ride , may walk , may heare a sermon , may confer with the gentlemen & Iustices , may sit downe on the bench , yea & he ought in wisdom ( as occasion serues ) to doe al these , yet neuerthelesse the very knot & execution of his office consisteth in non of al these , but only in hearing and determining , for al the rest he might aswel haue done before he was a judge . Euen so we doubt not , but that a minister may walke , may sit , may conferre with his parishioners , may distribute to the poore , may sing , may reade the Scriptures , either priuately or publikely ( yea and al these in their time & place with a good conscience , but yet al this while ( say we ) he is not come to the very marowe and execution of his office , til he come , To deuide the woorde aright : &c. because all the rest , he might wel enough haue done before he was a minister . For if you should aske me now , by what thing a christian man is singled out from a meere natural man , I cannot well answere you by his speach , because that you know , is incident to al men by nature , therefore I must answere you , by the holy profession of his religion . Euen so , if you aske me what is the thing that singles out a minister in his o●●ce from other christians , if I should answere you , bare reading , you wold laugh at me , for it soundeth to harsshe in the eares of the learned : explosa est sentencia , it is hissed out of the Scholes , that vnlesse poore M. Deane of Satum take it vp againe , I beleeue it wil lie in the chanel these 20. yeares before any man be so madde to touch it . Therefore I answere you , it is not his reading but his sound preaching in a lawefull function that seuereth him from other men : Neither if you marke it , doth our Sauiour himselfe in that special charge of his to his Apostles , couple reading with Baptizing but preaching , bidding them goe preach and baptize : And put case her majestie , should commaund a meere lay man to reade the Scriptures publikely in the Church , should this man sinne in refusing or no ? I would gladly knowe . I take it he should , because there is no warraunt to the contrarie in the worde : on the other side , if she sholde enjoine a meere lay man to take vnto him the pastoral office , by deuiding the worde and dealing with the sacraments , this man I suppose should sinne grieuously in obeying , because he ought rather to die , then to vsurp that office without the lawful calling of the church , so that the bare and sole authoritie of the Magistrate , is sufficient for th' one but not for the other . But this by the way , is but my poore judgment , whereby it may appeare to you , that simple reading , in what account so euer it be amongst men , yet is it not as I conceiue , the thing that doth single out a minister from another christian . It must be only ( as I tolde you before , ) the sound preaching of the word in a laweful function . &c. Beare witnesse I pray you , that I speake heere of sound preaching , that is , of deuiding the worde aright which the Apostle calleth orthotomein , I speake not of babling or of handeling a text with a Curricombe , in that I joine with M. Some with al my hart , and therefore I wish he had bene with me the 10. of Nouember last , at a certaine Church by the exchange , I thinke they cal it Bartholmewe church , where it may be his ears would haue glowed , and ( if he durst haue bene so bolde , ) I doe not thinke but he would haue condemnned the preacher and that worthely for his babling . For there he might haue heard him fetch many vagaries , and spend the most of his time in invectiues against good men , telling th' audience to this effect . That for the papists thanks be to God , we need not so greatly feare them , for they were through the vigilans and wisedome of the magistrate reasonably hampered , god be blessed for it : but now the magistrate was onely to cast his eye on the phantasticall crue , such as troubled the peace of the Church , otherwise there might fall out many mischiefes : For so was it done to the Donatists in S. Augustines time , and so to other heretikes in other times . And naming another D. of the Church , either Basill or Chrisostome I take it , I knowe not well whether : he tolde them greatly to their comforts , That he would first tell them his wordes in greeke , & afterward in English , and so he did , belike because they should know that he was a grecian : what a sweet receipt was that trow ye , to such of the people as were either sicke , or troubled in mind ? I heare that This preacher ( as I vnderstoode since , was M. Some himselfe . M. Some vseth to come to that Church himselfe somtime : I pray you when you see him , be in hande with him to shake vp that snuffing preacher for his babling