The co[n]futacyon of the fyrst parte of Frythes boke with a dysputacyon before whether it be possyble for any heretike to know that hym selfe is one or not. And also an other, whether it be wors to denye directely more or lesse of the fayth, put forth by Iohn Gwynneth clerke. Gwynneth, John. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A02422 of text S103590 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 12557). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 286 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 158 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A02422 STC 12557 ESTC S103590 99839340 99839340 3749 2248564110

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 Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A02422) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 3749) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1103:09) The co[n]futacyon of the fyrst parte of Frythes boke with a dysputacyon before whether it be possyble for any heretike to know that hym selfe is one or not. And also an other, whether it be wors to denye directely more or lesse of the fayth, put forth by Iohn Gwynneth clerke. Gwynneth, John. [312] p. Printed by J. Herford for R. Stevenage], [St. Albans : M.CCCCC.XXXVI. [1536] A dialogue. A reply to: Frith, John. A boke made by John Frith prisoner in the tower of London. Place of publication and printers' names from STC. Signatures: pi⁴ a-t. At end, "Here endeth the fyrste book"; no more published. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Frith, John, 1503-1533. -- Boke made by John Frith prisoner in the tower of London. Heretics, Christian -- Early works to 1800. eebo The co[n]futacyon of the fyrst parte of Frythes boke. with a dysputacyon before whether it be possyble for any heretike to know that hym selfe is one Gwynneth, John 1536 315 53583 39 0 0 0 0 0 7.28 B The rate of 7.28 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the B category of texts with fewer than 10 defects per 10,000 words. 2007-11 Assigned for keying and markup 2008-01 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2009-07 Sampled and proofread 2009-07 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2009-09 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

The confutacyon of the ●…st parte of Frythes boke , with ●…sputacyon before whether 〈◊〉 be possyble for any hereti●…●o know that hym selfe ●…ne or not . And als● 〈◊〉 other / whether it be wors to denye directely ●…re or lesse 〈◊〉 the faythe put forth by Ioh●●…p●…eth clerks ▪

M. CCCCC.XXXUI .

The prologe .

MOst gentyll and good cristen readers , where it is so , that it hath chaunced me not a few tymes , to be in companyes dyuers where I haue harde , amonge all other , that most notable and wylye heretyke Fryth , not a lytel praysed of some , for lernynge and myche gentylnesse / of some , for very syngulare and great pacyence / and of some not onely praysed and commended , but also pytied and lamented , howbeit ( as I perceyue ) not for his most infortunate chaunce spyrituall but for his dew and iust punishment corporall / and that in such maner , as though he had ben a man vtterly cast away without cause : I therfore by the reason of this , compelled at length , so myche to wonder , remembrynge withall , his iudges to be ( as I hard ) no meaner persons then pears of the reame , and that of bothe sortes / was streken with no small desyre , yf it were possyble to se his booke / wherin I myght perfytly perceyue , the very hole cause of hys worthy deth . Not for any thynge that I douted , ( as I perceyued sum dyd more then that ) whether his iudgement were iust or not / but vtterly bycause I wolde thorowly vnderstande the mater , for the which I though euer he was worthyly condempned . And that to the intent I myght be the more able to satysfye , such as I sholde chaunce to fynde , any thyng deceyued in hym . And to be short , his booke at length I dyd opteyne . The whiche when I dyd reade / questyonles yf the fastnesse of fayth , had ben no more , then the reddynesse of suffycyent iudgement I myght well haue sayde ( as to many may ) that I had met with it to sone ▪ & in an euyll houre : How be it the trauth to saye , after the fyrst tyme , without fayle the oftener I redde it , the falser I founde it . wherof at length I made so large report that here and there , now and then , I fayled not of some , whiche wolde not stycke to tell me , that I sayde therin myche more then I coude proue / bycause they thought I dyd other falsely reherse hym or ellys mysunderstonde hym . wherin I was dyuers tymes to this issuy dryuen , other to show forth the booke it selfe , which I thought not best / or to gyue place to an errour , or els to promyse the probacyon of that I sayd , in wrytyng / where frythes wordes and myne sholde bothe togyther apere : and therfore bycause I wold not show the book / nor any thynge geue way in suche a mater / I had none other answere to make but alwaye with this promyse / lyttell therin consyderyng then , what thynges I founde and perceyued in it afterward / whiche in especyall were twayne : one , that who so euer promyseth to proue suche a falshed and do it not in dede , without questyon doth but therin confyrme and vpholde it , and nothynge els . The other was / what viuacite of wyt , copy of lernynge and eloquence , is ( all most of necessyte ) requesyte , to conuynce the tortuouse and croked wylynesse of an heretyke . And when I perceyued a great inconueniens of the tone syde . And agayne vtterly no remedy , of the tother , That is to wyt , I saw what daunger myne owne promyse had bound me vnto yf I sholde not performe it . And of the tother parte / when I consydered , how farre I was from those thynges that I shulde aptly perfourme it withall / good crysten readers , it is not harde to perceyue whether my mynde were therwith asstonyed or not , beyng brought into suche a streyt , where apered out no passage / yet thyder conueyed ( I was sure ) without faute . But then my cogytacyon , as who saye , sore wered and beten herwith , ranne streygth to the very thynge it selfe , which fyrst set it this a worke : that is to wyt , the very bodyly presence of our most gloryous sauiour cryst in the holy sacrament . wherin doutles is very trauth . The whiche trauth , bycause it myght ( as full sure it was , to show the only strength of it selfe somtyme it wold ) be with out the excellency of wyt , the copye of lernynge , and the bewty of eloquence . Euen therfore dyd I set vppon the accomplyshment of my promyse , without any of them all thre / as ye shall well perceyue hereafter : wherin I moste hartely desyre you to haue me excused / not for my sake , but for the fortheraunce of the gloryous thynge it selfe , for the loue wherof I haue not shronke thus to show my rewdenesse & lytell lernyng to all men .

Finis .
The fautes escaped in the pryntynge .

Chapi. Lefe . Syde . Lynes . Fautes Amendent In the ix . i. i. xxi . is in is in In the .xi. ii . ii . i. There He. There In the .xiii. i. ii . v. denyed denyeth And in the xiii . fayled fayleth In the . xvi· i. ii . xiii . put away in . In the .xx. iii. i. ix . to note noted And in the xi . noted note And in the viii . so larg . thus larg . In the .xxi. vi . ii . ii . suspicions . suspicious In the xxiii . v. i. i none one And in the vi . i. ix . doth none . is none . In the .xxx. iii. ij . xiii . it is sayd . is it sayd

The fyrst chapiter . Catholicus .

HArke I saye cuntreyman , a worde with the.

Hereticus .

Speke ye to me syr ?

Catholicus .

what questyon is that , where there is no mo but thou & I ?

Here.

what wolde ye with me ?

Catho .

Come hyther & thou shalt here .

Hereti .

what is the mater ?

Ca.

Shall I tell the ?

He.

That is your promyse .

Ca.

Now trewly , when I fyrst se the comynge this waye alone / thou madest me therwith very gladde

He.

why so ?

Ca.

Dowtles bycause I haue ben a great whyle , very desyrous to talke with the. And yet cowde I neuer fynde the tyme & place : but ( by the reason of company / or one thyng or other ) there was alwaye some occasyon to interrupt or lette , that I dyd purpose . Therfore now , while it hath chaunced vs thus ( fortunately as I hope ) to mete here in this fayre & quiete place : where there be no maner of any present impedimentes / but that we maye saye / thou to me / & I to the / what so euer shall lyke vs best . I shall for my part therfore ( yf thou wilt harken well to me ) show the many thynges , perchaunce not a lytell beyonde thyne expectacyon .

He.

Syr , of such , wold I be glad to here : but yet I meruayle gretely , that ye shold be so desyrous , to talke with me . For I suppose ye knowe me not .

Ca.

yes well ynough , by syghte and here say .

He.

why , what haue ye herde of me ?

Ca.

In very dede I wyll not longe hyde it from the. Howbeit , fyrste thou knowest ryght well , that delyberation oft tymes , gyueth a great occasyon of wysdom : for that thyng , which a man doth somtyme iudge very well & mete to be done at the fyrst : by forther leysure and delyberatyon taken therin , he perceyueth at length to be clene contrary : the whiche I do now fynde by experyens .

He.

How so ?

Ca.

I shall tell yt. when I was fyrste moued to speke and commune with the ( letted hytherto as I haue shewed that ) I dyde then intende to haue asked the a certayne questyon / the which I perceyue now ( by the reason of a more deliberat consyderatyon , conceyued syns in the meane space ) had ben but very superfluous and vayne .

He.

why so ?

Ca.

what auayleth it to aske a questyon of hym that can not solue it ?

Here.

Am not I able to assoyle it ?

Ca.

No trewly .

Here.

yet ye can not tell .

Ca.

yes very wel .

He.

why , what was the questyon ?

Ca.

I haue tolde the a cause why , it were but voyde to tell the. And therfore it shulde but consume the tyme , & nothing els .

He.

yet I pray you / syns ye haue gone so farre withall , let me here it , & it were but for my fantasye .

Ca.

I wysse it is , as who say but a voyde draught . How be it , seyng thou wylt nedes haue it , I wyll not stycke with the for more then that . And therfore the questyon was in dede , none other but this . I had thougth then , to haue asked the / whether thou be an heretyke or not .

He.

I praye you say trouth .

Ca.

Then must I say the same agayne .

He.

I promyse you syr , it had ben a prety questyon . Neuertheles , was this it / whiche ye thynke , that I can not solue ?

Catho .

Euyn the very same .

He.

Then who can solue it , yf I can not ? specyally when it toucheth no man els , but me onely .

Ca.

yet who so euer can , sure it is , that thou canst not .

He.

why so ?

Ca.

Bycause there is no heretyke that can tell , whether he be one or not .

The seconde chapyter . Hereticus .

AHa , now I perceyue we haue somwhat to do , ere we part . But fyrst , what shuld moue you , to haue any suche opynyon / or to thynke that no heretyke can tell , whether he be one or not .

Ca.

I haue no suche opinion / nor I do not so thynke nother .

Here.

why then dyd ye saye so ?

Ca.

Not bycause of any opynyon that I haue therin / nor yet by the reason of so thynkynge / but bycause I do surely know it / & ouer that , by cause thou musest at it so mych / I wyll say to the thus myche more , that there is none of them , the doeth , or can so mych as byleue or thynke that hymselfe is one .

He.

what , can no heretike so mych as thynke that he is one ?

Ca.

No dowtles , for that is my sayenge .

He.

It is to farre agaynste reason .

Ca.

Not one whyt .

He.

yes with out fayle / for any man may thynke what so ever he wyll .

Ca.

Thou art therin mych deceyued . For all though it be all one , to thynke , & to byleue : yet is it two thynges ▪ to thynke , & to ymagion . Thou mayst ymagyon all steples to haue spronge out of the ground , as trees do : and also euery thyng to be otherwyse , then thou knowest it is , yf thou lyste . But yet thou canst not so thynke or byleue , all though thou woldest . For thou canst neuer ( if thou marke it wel ) beleue or thynke any thynge , agayne thyn owne knowlege . But for all that , thou mayest so ymagyen alway at thy pleasure . wher of it apperyth playne , that ymagynacyon is one / and thynkyng or byleuing is an other . Therfore though an heretyke maye ymagyen hym selfe to be one / yet ( as I sayd ) he can neuer for all that , so byleue or thynke : myche lesse then , is he able to knowe it : and who therfore wolde aske hym the questyon ?

The .iii. chapyter . Hereticus .

YEt may he as sone byleue , and also knowe that , as I can byleue you , that he can not / excepte ye showe me some good reason why .

Ca.

wylt thou admytte it , yf I do ?

Here.

Or els conuince me therby .

Ca.

what by reason , when thou wylt not alow it ?

Here.

ye , wherfore not .

Ca.

whiche waye ?

He.

Marry how shold one be better conuinced / by the reason whiche he wyll not admyt / then to be therfore shake of / and talked no more withall ? As I , for my part , wolde be loth to be so serued : specially in suche maters , as me thynke ye atempt for to treat of . wherof in dede , I haue no small desyre to here . Therfore as ye shall not fynde me satiable without reason : so ye shal not fynde me to refuse it , when it is purposed on to me .

Ca.

Bycause thou spekest so reasonably , thou shalt not haue me requyre any other wyse . Therfore to thou purpose / thou must nedes graunte this , that there is no man an herytyke / but bycause he byleueth in some parte of the fayth amysse .

He.

That is trouth .

Ca.

Therfore yf he could byleue , that he were an heretyke / than myght he byleue that thynge , whiche he doth not byleue : and that bothe at ones / which were impossyble : for it is not possyble for a man / to byleue any thyng to be euen then any other wyse , then he doth byleue it : As by the way of ensample . Suppose one so wicked , whiche doth byleue our sauyour chryste to be but a man onely , & not also very god to : as dyuers heretikes dyd in tyme past .

He.

what of the ?

Ca.

Then yf he that so byleueth , coulde byleue that he were therin an heretyke / he shold then byleue and thynke / that he dyd byleue therin amysse . wherfore yf he dyd thynke / that he byleueth amysse / in that he doth byleue our sauyour to be but a man onely / & not also god hym selfe : playne it is , that he doth byleue him to be not onely a man but also very god to when he doth thynke hymselfe to byleue amysse , when he byleueth the contrary : & so sholde he byleue and not byleue , all one thyng bothe togyther . which ( as I sayde ) is impossyble . wherfore it muste nedes folow , that an heretike can neuer byleue or thynke that hym selfe is one .

He.

Syr I do now , me thynke peceyue it very well . For yf I be not deceyued it is euen like , as yf ye dyd byleue and thynke the great turke to be now here in england . It were not possyble for you , to byleue , that ye byleue therin amysse / when your byleue is vtterly , that it is so : for when ye byleue that he is in england . yf ye could byleue , that ye byleued therin amysse / then myght ye byleue , that he were not in england , when ye byleue hym to be in it : & so shuld ye byleue , & not byleue one thing ( as ye sayd before ) both at ones , which I know , were agayne all reason & trouth .

Ca.

Doutles thou spekest very well to the purpose / and that per chaunce , wold yet more playnely appere by this . Beleue is a thing which can neuer be wyttyngly deceyued . For so sone as thou doest thynke , that thou byleuest in any thynge amysse : forthwith in the same instant , thy byleue is clene altered and chaunged , and is not the same , that it was before . Therfore bycause heresye , is no nother but in some parte of the fayth , a mysse byleue . when this questyon is asked , whether an heretike can byleue or thynke , that hymself is one / it is no more to say , but whether he can byleue or thynke that he byleueth amysse . But then , for so mych as no man is able , what so euer he doth byleue , to thynke hym self therin , to byleue amysse : it must nedes folowe , that no heretyke can byleue or thynke , that he byleueth amysse . And therfore he can neuer byleue or thynke , that he is an heretyke .

The .iiii. chapiter . Hereticus .

Syr farre is this now , from the nede of any more , probatyon .

Ca.

ye but yet thou seest not all .

He.

why so ?

Ca.

yf thou marke it well , this conclusyon doth take away no small wonder from many men .

He.

what is that I praye you .

Ca.

Trewly , what shulde be the cause of the rare & syldome amendement of heretykes : wherof partely hath sprong this commune opinyon , that heresye , frenesye , and ielosye , be thre dyseases incurable / not bycause they be all utterly so in ded but bycause , they be so syldome sene , to be thorowly cured & heled agayne . And as thou haste now harde , of heresye , what wonder is it all though it be syldome or neuer forsaken & amended : when it is , to euery heretyke ( as to one in a contynuall phrenesye ) vtterly vnknowen , and also inopinable , that hymselfe is any thynge therwith infected : for who can expell & put from hym , the whiche he can not byleue , that euer came nere hym / who can desyre , of any infyrmyte to be heled , wherwith he can not thynke , that euer he was dyseased ? or who can be wyllynge for to amende , wherin he can not , so myche as thynke , that euer he dyd offende ? specyally , when we may dayly se the amendemet of euyls , very seldome or neuer brought to passe in some , when they bothe byleue & knowe themselfe infected with them : yet mych more easyer it is ( be it neuer so hard ) to leue and amende that is knowen or thought amysse . Then it is ( be it neuer so lyght ) to ouercome and forsake , that is clene hyd & incredyble : who therfore or what , can purge cure and hele , this insensyble , imperceptyble incredyble ( and therfore the more parelous pestylent & odyble ) sykenesse , but onely the gentyll swet and myghty mercy of hym which iustifieth the keytyfe ? Pro. 27 But how sholde that moste gracyoust medycyne be opteyned , yf it be not desyred ? And how can it be desyred , when the cause why , ( as thou haste herde ) nother is , nor can be perceyued ? By this , thou mayst some parte see , of the lamentable state of an heretyke , whiche of all menne , is in moost daynger , & fardyst from all good helpe and socour .

The .v. chapyter . Hereticus .

Syr , ye say very trauth , & that I perceyue now ryght well .

Catholi .

yet thou seest not all the worst of hym .

He.

That were maruayle ,

Ca.

what wylt thou say , yf it be he , whome the prophete doeth mene . where he sayth , Psal 〈…〉 The folisshe man sayd in his harte , there is no god . That is to saye , the folysshe man , conceyued suche thynges in his hart , wherof it muste nedes folow , that there is no god .

He.

There is no heretyke , that so doeth .

Ca.

yes , that is there .

He.

why , what maner of heretyke is that ?

Ca.

Reken whiche thou wylt , thou canst not chose amysse .

He.

No ? then by that reason , it is euery one of them .

Ca.

Now in good fayth , thou hyttest euen the very marke .

Here.

what , doth euery heretike denye god hym selfe ?

Ca.

In very dede it is non other wyse but euen so .

He.

Syr neuer tell me that tale any more , for surely I wyll neuer byleue it .

Ca.

what softe and fayre , thou hast promysed , to folow reason / & now thou begynnest to flee from it , ere thou come at it .

He.

Syr there is no reason that can proue this .

Ca.

yes yes , in so mych , that the probacyon therof is sone made ( ye & soberly hard ) very easy also to be vnderstond .

He.

when I here it , I wyll tell you more .

Ca.

Fyrste , thou shalt not denye this / but all those denie god / whiche denieth chryste .

He.

In dede that I wyll graunte .

Ca.

And all heretykes denyeth chryste . wherfore it muste nedes folow that all heretikes denieth god : except thou wylt say , that chryst is not god .

He.

Mary syr we are mych the nere , for this probacyon .

Ca.

what eyleth it ?

Here.

why ? how proue you , that all heretikes denyeth chryst .

Ca.

All those denyeth chryst : which denieth all his hole fayth .

He.

That is a playne mater .

Ca.

And all heretikes denieth , all his hole fayth : wherfore all heretykes denieth chryst .

He.

I haue harde in my dayes many probacyons , but yet neuer h●rd I any such .

Ca.

wherfore ?

He.

wherfore ꝙ a ?

Ca.

ye wherfore ?

He ,

Marry we be now , euen as nye , as we were at the fyrste .

Ca.

And somewhat nere to , yf thou loke , well vpon it .

He.

Not one whyt , for who can proue , that all heretykes , denyeth all the hole fayth ?

Ca.

That can I , sone do .

He.

ye maye chaunce to be therin begyled .

Ca.

No no : for it is easy ynough .

He.

By assaye , we shall knowe .

Ca.

I wyll not assay , but I wyll do it in dede . And therfore marke it well : all those denieth all the hole fayth , which denieth any one part of it : but euery heretyke denieth at leste one part of it , or els he coude be no heretyke . wherfore euery heretyke , denieth all the hole fayth .

He.

Syr I praye you , go ye not about to mocke me ?

Ca.

I wold not haue the , take me , to be such a one .

He.

Then wyll I be playne with you . I neuer hearde man speke , so farre without reason . For when it is impossyble , to make any thynge certayne , by that whiche is incertayne / ye wold proue , that all heretykes denieth almyghty god , by the reason they denie chryst . when that is as incertayne , and as mych nedeth probacyon , as doth the other And then forthermore , to staye the mater withall , ye wolde proue agayne , that all heretikes denyeth chryst , by this / that ech of them denieth the hole fayth : when that is more vncertayne , and more nedeth probacyon ( yf more maye be ) then all that went before : fynally to knyt vp all togyther , ye wolde proue , that all heretykes denieth all the hole fayth , by the reason , that ech of them denieth some part of it . when that is not incertayne , but so sure , and playn false , that it can nede no maner of probacyon .

Ca.

And thynkest thou so ?

He.

Nay who can thynke otherwyse ? for who wyl beleue that he , whiche denieth but a part of the fayth , doth therfore denye all togyther ?

Ca.

Thou peraduenture shalt anone , byleue so thyself , for all this

He.

Neuer speke of that .

Ca.

well , fyrst when I sayd , that all those denieth almyghty god , which denieth chryst bycause he is very god hym selfe : sayd I amysse therin ?

He.

No mary syr , all that is trauth .

Ca.

And when I sayd , that all those denyeth chryst , whiche denieth all his fayth : sayde I any thynge amysse in that ?

He.

Nother .

Ca.

Also when I sayde that all those , denieth all the hole fayth , whiche denieth any part of it : sayde I amysse therin ?

He.

Therin ꝙ a ? what can be sayd amysse , yf that be not it ?

Ca.

yet , yf I can proue that so trewe , that it shall nede no forther probacyon : is not all well , or haue I sayde any maner of thyng herin amysse then ?

He.

Syr yf ye can surely proue , that who so euer denieth any part of the fayth , doth denye all togyther , ye shall then not onely make all well in dede , but ye shall also do therin , that I wyll neuer byleue , tyll I here it .

Ca.

yet thou wylt graunte me this I am sure , that who so euer denieth christ , denieth all the hole faith .

He.

All that I know very well .

Ca.

Therfore yf I can also proue , that who so euer denieth any part of the fayth , denieth chryst hym self , haue I not then clerely perfourmed , as mych as I haue promysed , when it must folowe therof , that who so euer doth , denieth all togyther ?

He.

Syr fayn wold I ons here it , yf it wold be , but it is longe me thynke a commynge forwarde .

Catho .

Thenne fyrste to begyn withall , thou shalt not denye , but euery parte of chrystes fayth is trewe .

He.

There is no dout of that , onelesse I sholde saye that some part of it were false . And than were it none of his fayth .

Ca.

Thou spekest very well : and therfore , yf euery article of his fayth be trewe ( as in dede it must nedes be ) of whome is the same trauth ?

Here.

Of whome shold it be , but of hym , whose fayth it is ?

Ca.

Then it is the trauth of chryst .

He.

what els ?

Ca.

Take good hede what thou sayest .

He.

wherfore ?

Ca.

Perchaūec yf thou graunte that , thou wotest full lytell what wyll folow .

Here.

what so euer folow , I wyll alwaye graunte this , that the trauth of the fayth , is the trauth of chryst . For yf there were any artycle , wherin the trauth of chryste were not . I am sure , it coude be no parte of his fayth .

Ca.

Doutles , it is very well taken : wherfore yf that trauth , which is in euery syngular artycle of the fayth , be the very trauth of chryst ( as there is no fayle , but it is in dede / or els were they vtterly no partes of his fayth , as thou doest full trewly confesse thy selfe ) thou shalt be therfore well answered , it must clerely folowe , that chryst is also , in euery article of his fayth . For chryst and his trauth , be not two thynges , as other men be , and theyr trauth , whiche are oft tymes without it : some men may , ( sometyme at leest ) be sayde to be trewe . But no man may ( at any tyme ) be sayde to be trauth : which is proper to chryst : for iustly may he , and no man ellys , be called trauth : for so doth he call hym selfe : Iob. 1 and doutles the cause why ? is this , that he and it , is all one : for as thou consyderst no chryste , when thou consyderst trauth without hym : euen so thou consyderst no chryst nother , when thou consyderste hym , withoute trauth : for wythout trauth , what were he but no chryste in dede . Therfore what so euer thynges cleue so togyther , that they can not be separate , nother in dede , nor yet in consyderacyon , without fayle agayne all reason it were to say , that they be dyuers . But surely euen suche is chryst , and his trauth . wherfore it were wyckednesse , to thynke , that they be not bothe one . This ineuitable conclusyon well marked , and borne in mynde , shall cause the clerly to perceyue those thynges , whiche must nedes folow therof . Now therfore whyle it is so , that the trauth of chryst , is in euery artycle of his fayth , & he & his trauth is both one : it can not be auoyded , but also he , which is his trouth , is in euery one of them : for yf he be not in them , them ( bycause his trauth & he is all one ) his trauth is not in them : if his truath be not in them , then they be not trew yf they be not trew / then , they be no artycles of his fayth . But bycause all this is fals : now agayne to the trewe parte : yf they be articles of his fayth / then doutles his trauth is in them : yf his trauth be in them then without questyon so is he : except thou wolt make hym , without his trauth , as it must nedes folow , yf he be not where it is , the whiche were impossyble . Now is it therfore , clerely come to lyght , that chryst is in euery artycle of his fayth . wherof ( as thou mayest perceyue thy selfe ) it can not be auoyded , but who so euer denyeth , any one of them ( as euery heretike doth , at the lest ) he doeth also denye hym in the same . And therfore what parte of the fayth leuyth he vndenyed , whiche denieth hym , in whome there is all conteyned ? A more larger declaracyon herof , thou shalt haue a none . Take this therfore in good worth ther whyles .

The .vi. chapiter . Hereticus .

NAy nay syr , I passe not vpon the greatly , for me thynke this all redy , were wonders well , yf it were not for one thyng .

Ca.

I pray the what is that ?

He.

yf there were nothyng to be sayd to the contrary .

Ca.

ye , countreyman , art thou such a one ? Now a good fellyshyp , saye what thou canst , all though it be , nothyng to the purpose .

He.

A syr there ye wolde haue it . Howbeit ye shall not so fynde it .

Ca.

Go to than let me se , whether I shal or not .

He.

Syr wher ye say ( as I now perceyue it is in dede ) that christ is in euery article of his faith , bicause that his trauth which is hymself , is in ech of them . where vpon ye conclude , that euery heretyke which denieth some part of it at leest , denieth therin chryste hym selfe , and all the hole fayth to , by the reason that it is all , conteyned in hym . How therfore I praye you , may this agree withall , ( whiche is not vnknowen ) that all heretikes , doth both holde and confesse , many articles of the fayth , as ernestly , & as fastly as any men can / sayenge , and also thynkynge , themselfe as verely to byleue them , as any men do ?

Ca.

Is this all the mater ?

He.

Syr take this tyll more come .

Ca.

I maruayle gretely , that thou wylt haue any maner of respect , to theyr sayeng or thynkyng other , agayne so manifest and inuincyble reason , as I haue shewed ye. Neuertheles , be iudge now thy selfe : do they , other saye or thynke , them selfe any surer of the trauthe , in any poynt , then they do in the very same , wher in they do directely erre in dede . How surely do they thynke that they be not therin deceyued ? shall we , thinke so to bycause of that ? Those which dyd murder and sley th apostles ( as our sauyour hym self doth testifye ) thought that they dyd ther in , ●oh. 16. great seruyce to god : but yet for all theyr thynkyng , was it as they thought ? or dyd theyr thynkynge excuse theyr faute , bycause they thought it was none ? The Iewes dyd also thynke , that they slew not the lorde of glory , when they slewe chryst , Cor. 2 as saynte Paule doth wytnesse / yf they had knowen hym ( he sayth ) the lorde of glory , they wold neuer haue crucyfyed . Therfore they dyd thynke , it was not he : but was theyr thynkynge deceyued or not ? or dyd they not put the sonne of god to deth , bycause they dyd , otherwyse thynke ? And euen so in lyke maner , what spekest thou to me , of an heretykes thynkynge ? when ( as I proued one to the before ) it is impossyble for hym , to thynke that thynge , which were of all thynges , most expedyent for hym to thynke / that is to saye , that hym selfe is an heretyke ? yet , is he none , by cause of that ? what thyng might he thynke , more trewly / and yet he is not able so to do ? Therfore lette neuer his thynkynge , what so euer it be , stande in the waye , bytwene the and ineuitable reason .

The .vii. chap. Hereti .

Syr , I wyll now , tell you another thyng .

Ca.

Let vs haue it , yf it be worth the herynge .

He.

without fayle , there be many taken for heretikes / and yet , be they none for all that .

Ca.

what is this to the purpose when I speke of none suche for I speke of them that be heretykes in dede . And loke therfore how theyr thynkyng , doth fayle them in those articles , which they denye / so doth it fayle them to in those , which they seme to graunte .

He.

Nay syr none of that , for in those articles , which they denye / they thynke they haue the trauth , and yet they be deceyued . But in those articles , whiche they holde and graunte ( as the articles of the crede ) they thynke they haue the trauth , & euen so they haue in dede , and be not deceyued : therfore they be not deceyued , both the wayes .

Ca.

Thou art thereni deceyued , at leest one way . For how can they haue the trouth of those artycles , whiche they thynke them selfe to confesse and byleue / when they do vtterly refuse , and denye the very same trauth , in those other articles , whiche they byleue not . In those artycles which they graunte , thou sayest they haue the trauth , bycause they thynke so ( whiche doth not folow ) And in those articles , whiche they denye / thou art sure they haue it not , bicause they do not byleue them . Therfore by this reason , they haue the trauth , and haue it not , whiche can not be : for yf they haue it , they haue it / yf they haue it not , they haue it not . But to haue it & not haue it , both togyther , is impossyble : wherfore as I sayd , thou art herein deceyued .

He.

No no syr , for a man maye haue the trauth in one thynge , all though he lacke it in an other , well ynough : as it is dayly seen .

Ca.

A now I perceyue thou art farre from the thynge in dede . For thou thynkest , that the trauth of those artycles , which they denye , is an other and not the very same trauth , that is in them , whiche they graunte .

He.

why how els ?

Cat.

Laughe , therfore I saye : yf thou knewest , what properte , the trauth of the fayth were of : thou woldest not aske the question .

He.

why , what proprete is that ?

Ca.

In very dede to be no more in the hole fayth , then in the leest part of it . Nor no lesse in the leest parte , then in all togyther : nor none other in any part , then in euery other . And that is surely well proued after this maner : what so euer is more then trauth , is vtterly no trauth : and what so euer is lesse then trauth / doutlesse is no trauth . Also what so euer is a nother then trauth , without fayle is no trauth nother . Therfore as touchynge the fyrst . yf the trauth of the hole fayth , were any more , then the trauth of the lest part of it : them were it more then trauth ( for the trauth of the leest part is trauth ) But trauth to be more then trauth / euery man knoweth , is impossyble . wherfore the trauth of the hole fayth , can be no more , then the trauth of the leest part of it . Agayne for the seconde by the same reason / yf the trauth of the leest parte , were any lesse , then the trauth of the hole fayth , then were it lesse then trauth ( for the trauth of the hole is trauth ) but trauth to be lesse then trauth , playne it is , can neuer be . Therfore the trauth of the leste parte of the fayth , can be no lesse , then the trauth of all the hole . Thyrdely , yf the trauth of any one parte , were not the very same , but a nother , then the trauthe of any other part of it : then were it a nother than trauth ( for the trauth of ech part is trauth ) but trauth to be any other then trauth , can neuer be possyble . wherfore there is no nother trauth , in any one parte of the fayth , then there is in eche other .

The .viii. chap. Hereti .

Syr your reasons me thynke can not hold .

Ca.

The cause why , wold I fayne heare .

He.

That shall ye sone do , & for example : the resurrection of chryst , is one parte of the fayth : and the ascention is an other .

Ca.

All that is trew .

He.

Then yf the very same trauth , no more nor lesse , nor none other : were in the tone , that is in thou tother / it must nedes folow , that the resurrection and the ascention were bothe one : as it may this way , more playnely appere : ye wyll not denie , but when I saye , that chryst rose from dethe to lyfe , I say trauth ?

Ca.

what els ?

He.

And when ye saye , that he ascended , you say also the trauth lyke wyse .

Ca.

There is no dout of that .

He.

Then yf these be not to distinct trauthes , but are all one , so that the one is none other , but euen the very same that is the tother : then saye you the very same that I do .

Ca.

what of that ?

He.

Therfore yf you , when ye saye that chryst ascended , say the very same that I do , when I say , that he rose from deth to life : it can not be auoyded , but that hys resurrection and his ascention is all one .

Ca.

Hast thow sayed ?

He.

ye syr for this tyme .

Ca.

Then very well concluded . As who saye , bycause the trauth of them , must nedes be all one , the thynges also where in the same trauth is , muste nedes be so to : when it is euer the contrary : for yf thou wylt haue the trauth of eche article to dyffer , as the articles doth themself , in whom it is . Thou shalt make neuer a one of them trew .

He.

yet that wolde I heare .

Ca.

with a good wyll . If the trauth of the resurrection , and the trauth of the ascention , were not all one : it coude not be anoyded / but the one trauth must nedes dyffer from the other . And then , yf the one dyffer from the other / bycause that same other is trauth , the one must nedes dyffer from trauth . And ( as I tolde the before ) what so euer differth from trauth / all men knoweth is impossyble to be trauth . Therfore by this reason , the one article is without trauth . And also by the same reason , lykewyse the tother , of the contrary part / and so altogyther . Moreouer agayne this waye , yf they were two trauthes / there is no dout , but the one , were not the same , that the other is . Then yf the one , were not the same that the other is / bycause the other is trauth : the one were not the same that is trauth . And what so euer is not the same , that is trauth , without fayle , can be no trauthe . Therfore if they be twayne , the one is no trauth nor the other nother . Besyde all this : the trauth of euery artycle , is ( as I sayd ) the trauth of chryst / and byeause chryste and his trauth is all one , yf there be not the very same trauth , in one article , that is in a nother , it must nedes folow , that there is not the same chryst in one article , that is in a nother / but in euery article a dyuerse chryst , so that there be so many chrystes , as there be artycles : wherfore , bycause the falshed of these conclusyons , is not onely to odyble to be heard , but also to playne to be douted in . The trauth therfore , of the resurrection , must nedes be ( as it is in dede ) the very same , all one , and none other , but euen the very trauth of the ascention . And so it is lykewyse to be sayd , and vnderstande , of ech article from one to a nother , thorough all the hole fayth . Therfore when the trauthe ( as I haue playnely showed the ) is no more in the hole fayth , then in the lest part of it / nor no lesse , in the leest part , then in all the hole to gyther : nor none other , in one part , then in any of the other . To this it muste nedes come , that the hole trauth , of the hole fayth , is in eche and euery syngulare parte of it / no more , no lesse , none other , but without any dyfference , euen the very same . wherfore bycause it is so , and can in dede , none other wyse be : this is therof a conclusyon ineuitable / that who so euer denieth any article of the fayth ( as euery heretyke doeth one or other at leest ) he denieth vtterly the hole trauth of all togyther : for who so euer denieth a part of that , whych hath no partes , denieth in dede all the hole , bycause the very same , which semeth a part , is all the hole And such is the trauth of the fayth which ( all though it be nothyng so ) yet semeth to haue partes , & all by the reason of the dyuersyte of thynges , wherin it is : that is to say , by the reason that the fayth is deuyded into dyuers distyncte artycles , wherin the trauth of it is . And that is therfore the cause why it is thought , ( of such as vnderstond it not ) that the trauth it selfe ( which is indiuisyble ) is also dyuyded and in partes dystributed amonge them lyke wyse , the whiche is vtterly fals . Therfore fyrmely styll abydeth my sayenge , that all heretykes are deceyued , not onely in those articles which they denie , but also in those which they graunte and confesse , when it is surely so / that they denie clene contrary and agaynste theyr owne thynkyng , the very trauth of all togyther .

The .ix. chap Hereti .

Syr here haue ye now declared a fayre playne distynction , betwene th artycles of the fayth , & the trauth that is in them . wherfore all though an heretyke denye all the hole trauth of the faith , which ye say , is is euery artycle of it : yet he doth not denye ( as euery man knoweth ) all those artycles , wherin it is .

Ca.

I praye the what skyll that ? when he doth ones denie and take away , the trauth of them all , without the whiche , what are they ? And yet yf thou loke , somwhat more narowly vpon it / thou shalt fynd , that he denieth all them to , like as he denieth all theyr trauth .

He.

who can thinke that ?

Ca.

The same questyon thou myghtest aske , of many trew thynges mo , as well as of this .

He.

why , how is it possyble , for any man to beleue , that when an heretyke , doth bothe saye and thynke , that chryste rose from deth to lyfe : he doth denye that artycle , & so of other lyke wyse ?

Ca.

Thou doest all waye swymme aboue , and neuer dyue to the bottum . wherfore thou seest not what there is . For I praye the , what other thynge is it , for to say of any article , that it is not trewe , then to say , there is no suche thyng ? Therfore when all the articles of the fayth doth so cleue to theyr trauth , that the one can not be , without the other : and also when the hole trauth of them all , is in euery one of them syngularly / it must nedes folowe , that when he denieth any one of them , he denieth them all / bycause in that one he denieth al theyr trauth . with out the whiche ▪ it is not possyble , that any one of them shulde be .

He.

yet all men knoweth , he wyll saye , and vtterly so thynke , that they be all trewe : that part onely except wherin he doth not byleue .

Ca.

I maruayle greately , that thou wylt yet ( as I told that before ) any thyng stycke , vpon his sayenge , or thynkynge other ? when he wyll alwaye saye , that he is as trewly in the fayth as any other man is , & vtterly no heretyke at all / nor no man can make hym , so mych as thynke the contrary : yet euery man knoweth , he is deceyued clerely . Therfore neuer passe vpon the sayeng , or thynkynge other , of such a one .

He.

In dede syr no more I do not , so mych as I do , vpon other mens , whiche be no heretykes . For also they , do vtterly thynke , that no heretyke doth denie the hole fayth / nor yet any more of it , but euen those poyntes , wherin he doth dyrectely erre , & dyffer from other faythfull people : that is to saye , they thynke , he erreth in no more , but in those partes onely , wherin he ought to be condempned , for an heretyke .

Ca.

who be they that so thynke ? any other but such , as are not able to dyscerne the thyng ? or any other but such as iudgeth more , as who saye , by gesse , then by any order of reason , wherof lytell skyll they can ? farre it is a sonder , to iudge thynges , as they seme . And to iudge them , as they be in dede , whiche fewe in respect can do / specyally when they be somewhat darke as this is . Therfore what is the iudgement or opyniyn of suche , to be pondered in this cace ?

The .x. chap. Hereticus .

Syr wyll ye byleue me ?

Ca.

what is the mater ?

He.

Now in good fayth , it wyll not synke in my hede , for all this / that an heretyke doth denie those articles , whiche he doth openly graunte and confesse , and more ouer , vtterly beleue and thynke therin as he sayeth to ,

Ca.

what not yet ?

He.

No trewly .

Ca.

Then I suppose thy wytte be not so good , as I toke it for .

He.

yf it be not , I muste take it in good worth . I wyll make it no better than it is .

Ca.

well , I coniecture what standeth in thy lyght , all this whyle .

He.

Syr then I wolde it were taken awaye .

Ca.

Thou shalt se me go nere it by & by . Thou doest not knowe ( I perceyue ) that a thynge is denyed , two maner of wayes , dyrectely , and indyrectely : that is to saye by meane , and imedyately / by the reason wherof , a thyng may seme sometyme , to be graunted , when it is denyed / as it doth now in this case . For by the waye of ensample . One Fotyne an heretike in tyme past , semyd to confesse chryst dyrectely , when he dyd so saye and none other wyse thynke . But yet he dyd vtterly denye the same indyrectely , when he dyde bothe saye and thynke that he was not very gode for none other is chryste , but one person , god and man ioyned togyther . Therfore yf he were not god , in very dede he were not chryste . wherfore when he denyed hym dyrectely to be god / he dyde vtterly denye hym indyrectely , to be chryst : that is to saye , he dyde therin denye hym to be chryst , by meane / the whiche is none other , but so to saye , or speke such thynges of hym . wherof it must nedes folow , that he can not be chryste . wherfore , yf chryste be denied , whether it be dyrectely , or indyrectely , it is no mater , when all cometh to one , before hym , that can playnely perceyue , and se it / & that is alwaye god at leste , all though there were no man els , that coulde , as the moste parte in dede can not . Therfore as the Fotyns denyed chryst to be very god . So the Maniches denied hym to be very man . wherin they both , denied hym to be very chryst , all though not directely : that is to saye , all though they bothe sayde and thought the contrary . But what for that / when of eche , of theyr sayenges , no chryste must nedes folowe ? For lyke as he is not chryst , yf he be not very god / so he is not chryste nother , yf he be not very man . when chryst is ( as I sayde ) none other , but one syngular parson , of bothe god and man ioyned togyther . wherfore , they denied in dede , the very same thynge , which they semed bothe to graunte . And dyd not those , whiche denied chryst to be a very man , denie therin , his very natiuite , denie therin , his very resurrection , denie therin , his very ascention ? what yf they dyd not thynke it ? what is all that , to the purpose : which of those artycles , coude be trewe , yf chryst were not a very man ? for he that denieth one artycle , all though with his word , and also thought , he graunte an other / yet in very dede for all that , he doth denie them bothe togyther , the tone directely , and the tother indyrectely , whiche maketh no dyfference in the conclusyon . For as sure is the tone as the tother ▪ for all though he saye , and more ouer so thynke , the tone to be trew ( as it is in dede ) yet when the trauth of the same , is also in the tother , which he directely denieth . Clere it is , that he denyeth the same to , whiche he semeth and also weneth hym selfe to graunte : when he denyeth the very trauth of it in the tother . For the thynge can neuer abyde , where the trauth of it is denied . Therfore ( as thou mayst now , with halfe an eye perceyue ( it can not folow / that an heretyke hath in dede , any part of the fayth : other bycause he doth directely confesse and thynke , very many artycles therof to be trewe , ( for he doth no lesse bothe say and thynke of that poynt , wherin he doth erre ) nor yet bycause the most part of trewe chrysten people , doth not thynk hym to erre , in any more then he doth dyrectely denye . For farther then that , lyttell do they perceyue , or consyder . what muste nedes folow , they syldome loke after / and specyally in suche thynges . beyonde the sences , few of them doth reche : any secretes of nature , they are skant able to touche . what place therfore , can theyr iudgement haue , in thynges that be supernaturall ? wherfore , what so euer he , or they , do saye or herein thynk / or how so euer to any of them both , it doth seme and appere / take this neuerthelesse , for a sure conclusyon / that euery heretyke ( all though it be a thynge to hym selfe incredyble ) is , for all that , no lesse then out of the hole fayth of chryst : that is to say , out of it , at leste in part , before all men / and out of it altogyther , at lest , before almyghty god : before whome , euery thynge doth appere , not as it semeth , but as it is vtterly in dede .

The .xi. chap. Hereti .

Syr wyll ye now se , what of all this must nedes folow ?

Ca.

Very gladly .

He.

There canne no more of the fayth be denyed , but all together .

Ca.

Surely that is a trewe tale .

He.

And ye saye that he , which denyeth directely , but one artycle , doth therin denie all the rest .

Ca.

That is my sayenge in dede .

He.

How manyfestely therof doth it folowe , that he whiche denyeth directly but one article / and he which denieth them directely altogyther , be bothe lyke euyll .

Ca.

Fyrste my frende what inconueniens fyndest thou therin , all though it sholde so folow ? or what impedement shold it be , to any thyng that I haue sayde / yf they were bothe , as thou sayest , lyke euyll in dede ?

He.

Then your conclusyon coude not be trew .

Ca.

why so ?

He.

Bycause , suche a falsyte , can neuer folowe , of any trew sayenge ,

Ca.

what falsyte ?

He.

I tolde ye before , that he whiche denyeth but one article / and he , which dyrectely denieth them all , shulde be bothe lyke euyll .

Ca.

And is that false ? There is no questyon therof .

Ca.

Then the tone of them is wors then the tother .

He.

who knoweth not that ?

Ca.

And which of them therfore , is the worste , sayest thou ?

He.

ye nede not aske me / for doutles ye can tell as well as I.

Ca.

yet wold I sayne here it of the.

He.

Marry syr yf ye wyll nedes , he that dyrectely denyeth all th artycles , must nedes be mych wors then he , which denyeth dyrectely but one of them .

Ca.

I thought euen as mych before . Thou fyndest many fautes with my conclusyons ( which though I saye it , be inuyncible ) but a man maye sone se , what thyne be . For where as it were not agayne any thynge , that I haue sayd ▪ all though they were bothe , of an equall euyll , yet so myche thou arte wyde of the marke , that he is farre , the worst of them bothe , whiche thou thynkest vtterly , to be leste euyll .

He.

what he that denieth dyrectely but one artycle , wors then he , that denieth them all ?

Ca.

ye , neuer dout therin .

He.

Nay syr no more I wyll not ye maye be sure , nor yet beleue it nother : for therto wyll I neuer agre .

Ca.

Thou canst not tell , what thou shall knowe hereafter .

He.

what so euer it be .

Ca.

yet heare my mynde ther in , and thenne take it , as thou seest cause .

He.

Syr I maye so do for your pleasure , wherwith I am content .

Ca.

Then take hede what I shall say . The euylnesse of euery heretyke , is other to hym selfe only or els to hym selfe and other also .

He.

That is playn .

Ca.

Then fyrst as touching other / there is no dout but he that denieth but one article , is a thousand folde wors , then the tother , which denieth them all : for how coude his euyll , that denyeth them all , hurt any mo but hym self ? yf he wolde , how shold he be hard ? I wyll not saye , what good man , but what other heretyke is there be syde hymselfe , that wold abeyd the heryng of hym ? ye also what good chrysten man , wolde not be moued with the better respect , to the good kepynge of his owne fayth , & with a more laude to god , for the conseruacyon therof , when he seeth such a one , that hath lost his , altogyther in euery poynt ? so that other folke sholde by hym , take rather good , then hurt . But the tother , loke how mych it is lesse , that he denyeth : so many mo there be , that doth not perceyue it : and the mo there be , that doth not perceyue it / the mo be ther with , the soner deceyued / and the soner deceyued , the mo be infected : The mo that be infected , the more euyll , al men knoweth it is . Besyde this / how hath anyheresie been sowed multyplied , & increaced , so greatly amonge the people , as to many hath ben , but by hym , whiche semed to haue , so mych of the fayth , that he was longe thought , to lack no whit of it / but yet he dyd for all that / as the inenarrable euyll , that folowed therof , more & more , dyd playnely declare at length . But by hym that denieth directely all together / there coude neuer any suche thynge , be brought about . For such a one ( as I sayd ) no man wolde heare / byleued therfore , how coude he be ? yf he coude not be byleued / no man by hym , coude be deceyued / yf no man coude be , by hym deceyued : clere it is , that his euyll , coude hurte no mo but hym selfe . which therfore of them bothe , is worst , to other men . I thynke it nedeth no forther declaracyon .

The .xii. chap. Here.

Syr therof , no man douteth . For ther is no questyon herin , whiche of them bothe , is worst to other men . But all the mater lyeth in this poynt , which of them bothe is worst to hym selfe / & that I hold vtterly ( as all men doth ) to be he , which denieth directly all together .

Ca.

And I the contrary .

He.

Surely there at I maruayle mych .

Ca.

ye thou shalt maruayle at it , perchaunce neuer a whit anone , & therfore take hede what I say : yf euery euyll be ( as it is in dede ) so mych wors to the hauer , as it is of longar cont : then wors is the faut of hym , that directely denieth but one secret article , then is his , which denieth them all . For how lytell whyle , sholde he contynue , the denieth them all , ouer the other shold ? all though the people dyd not tere hym to pecys , as in ded they wolde , yf he were not shortly ryde , by some other meane . Forther more yf euery euyll , be so mych lesse daynger , to the hauer , as it hath in it , a greater occasyon of amendment . Then wors is the euyll of hym , euen to hym selfe , that denyeth dyrectely but one artycle , then is his , whiche denieth them all : for he that denieth them all / hath by the reason therof , when he perceyueth hym selfe therin , clene to varye & dyssent in euery poynt / from all the hole multitude , of christen people , a wonders great accasyon , to reuolue well the mater in hys mynde , and hyely to consyder , that very wysdome , wolde hym therin , rather in any wyse , to mystrute hymselfe , then all them / and so to retorne agayne : where the tother by the reason , not onely , that he semyth ( at lest to hym selfe ) to agree with the multytude , in so many poyntes , as causeth hym therfore to thynke , that he lacketh none . But also by the reason that he fyndeth oft tymes , dyuerse , of his owne opinion , who almost compellyth hym , more styfly to persyste , & put therin no maner of dout / hath for these causes , not onely no suche , but , as who saye , none occasyon at all , of his amendement / but rather the contrary . Besyde all this : no mans euylnesse can hurte another , but that it doth forther hurte hymselfe also in the same / but the euylnes of hym that dyrectely denieth but one article or two , hurteth somtyme many thousandes mo / it muste therfore nedes folow , that his euyll , is euyn to hym selfe , so mych wors then is his , which directely denyeth them all ( wherby he hurted no man els ) except thou wylt saye , that it is lest euyll to the workers , which doeth moste myscheyfe .

The .xiii. chap. Hereticus

Syr I pray you this , he that directely denieth all th artycles , perchaunce is euen as wyllyng to infect as many mo , as the tother doth in dede / all though he can not so brynge it to passe , bycause , as ye sayd , there is no man , that wyll byleue him , nor so mych as heare him This therfore supposed , what dyfference , yf it were so , is there bytwene them than .

Ca.

Euyn as mych as is bytwene the wyllynge of an euyll , and the perfourmans of the same . The whiche thou mayst perceyue thy selfe to be sumwhat , or elles were it no profyte , to withdrawe an euyll wyll , before it commeth to th effect . Therfore also this way , is he that directely denied but part , wors then he , that denieth all . when he hath his euyll , with the defyred effect of the same / & the tother hath it not : for wors alwaye is he , which hath an euyll wyll , and also a power besyde , to perfourme the same ( by the reason wherof th effect neuer fayled ) Then is he that hath but an euyll wyll onely lackynge a power to perfourme it withall / for the which th effecte can neuer come to passe .

He.

well syr , let it so be for that poynt , yet what yf he , that denyeth directely but one article hurt ( as the tother doth ) no mo therwith but hym selfe ? Then must he that directely denieth all togyther , nedes be wors then he .

Ca.

Nay not so nother .

He.

what speke ye of it / it is not possyble to be otherwyse . For when they be both , lyke in wyll and also in dede toward other men vtterly towarde them selfe , he that directly denyeth all , must nedes differ in euyll , from the tother whiche directly denyeth but parte , and be farre wors then he .

Ca.

yet thou art ones agayne deceyued . For the vttermost , that thou canst make of it that way , can be no more but this , that they shold be bothe equall and lyke euyll . And thou shalt not brynge all that about nother , by that tyme thou hast folowed & tryed thy cace , thorouly to th ende .

He.

That were a straunge thyng to me .

Ca.

Neuer the lesse so straunge it is . For what forsyth it , all though they dyscorde sumewhat in wordes , when they do vtterly agre in dede / that is to say : in the very conclusyon it self ? what dyfferth it , to denye , directely and distynctely , chrystes natiuyte , his deth , his resurrection , his ascention , and so forth / and to denye directly no more but this , that he was very man ( as the Manychees dyd ) wherof it muste nedes folowe , that none of those artycles coude be trewe : commeth it not therfore all to one ? or is not the tone as euyll as the tother ? for all though he that directely denyeth euery artycle , denieth chryst , hymselfe , and can therin denie no more . yet he that denieth directely but one of them ( as I tolde the before ) denieth hym also , & can therin denye no lesse . And what canst thou make of it , when chryste is denied , but that he is denied ? whether it be therfore , in this artycle or in that , in one , or in two , in two or in thre / in mo or in lesse / in all or in part / it is no mater , when there is no dyfference , in the finall conclusyon but all one . For yf one kyll a man with one strype . An other lykewyse an other , with such ten strypes , what dyfference doth it make in the ende when it is deth at the fyrst , as well as at last ? And euen so , yf one denie chryste , in one article , an other in two , the thyrde in thre , and so forth what mater is it ? or what doeth it dyffer as touchyng the ende , when there is as mych denyed in the fyrst as there is in the last , or in all the rest ? Therfore all though they be bothe , lyke in mynde / and also in dede , towarde other men . yet wyll it not folow , that he , which directly denieth all th artycles , is any wors then the tother : but in very dede the tother is yet euen to hymself , mych wors then he . when his euyll ( as I declared on to the before ) is of a more quiet & longar contynuaunce . And hath mych lesse , ye all moste none occasion at all , of amendement , but wonders mych euery way to the contrary ouer the tother hath .

The .xiiii. chap. Hereti .

YEt wyll I not so geue it ouer , for all this . For the oftener that chryst is denied the more wyckednes I am sure it is . And he that denyeth hym in many artycles , denieth hym so many tymes mo , then doth he , whiche denieth hym but in one . wherefore , he that denieth hym in moost artycles , must nedes be wors then tother .

Ca.

That foloweth not nother . For he that kylleth a man with xx . deth strokes . yet he kylleth hym not lykwyse .xx. tymes / but in very dede , no more but euen ons . And as myche doth he that kylleth hym , at one stroke : so he that denyeth chryst in .xx. articles , denyeth hym not .xx. tymes bycause of that / but vtterly euyn very ons in dede . And no lesse doeth he , that denieth hym as I tolde the before / but in one artycle : for a thynge is not alway , so many dyuers tymes denyed , as the negation of it , is vocally spoken & expressed . The voyce wherby the negacyon is showed forth , is not the very negacyon it selfe / but onely a meane to show it by . For the negacyon it selfe , when the voyce is cessed and done , abydeth styll within , all one and the very same , that it was euen then and also before . Therfore the denieng of chryst in .xx. artycles , can no more make hym .xx. tymes denyed , then euen one thyng xx . tymes rehersed / or .xx. dyuers wayes expressed , doth make it .xx. thynges , nor no more then .xx. deth strokes in one man , doth make it xx . murders . For when chryst is ons denyed in one artycle / how many so euer be denied of them , afterwarde besyde , they be but so many showynges or so many rehersals of the same , & not so many syngular denyenges of chryste : as when one worde is expressed and rehersed , agayne & agayne / the same agayne and agayne , doth not sygnyfye an other worde and an other , but all waye the same and the same , and none other . Therfore the worde is not diuers , but within it styll remayneth one , nother more nor lesse nor none other , all though it be diuers tymes or neuer so often rehersed . There is in dede diuersyte in the rehersall , but yet so is there not in the worde , whiche is rehersyd . And euen lykewyse , the negacyon and denyenge of chryste , is not diuerse in it selfe , all thoughe it be showed or as who say often expressed in diuers and many articles . For neuerthelesse it remayneth styl in the very same symplicyte , as when it is showed but in one alone : for when the negacion of a thyng , doth consyst in the mynd / and the voyce but an instrument to showe it with all , and is not in dede the negacyon it selfe : clere it is , that then the thynge can neuer be twyse denyed , excepte it be ons at leest graunted betwene : as thus / yf one sholde denye the to be a trew man , so myght he do , and speke neuer a worde / for euen so he doth , when he doth ons , but so thynke . Therfore whether he do expresse it .xx. tymes , or neuer a on s . This negacion of thy trauth is yet neuerthelesse all one in hym / and can not be trewly sayd , that he denieth thy trauth any more or les , but euen ons , whether he do neuer so often , or neuer a whyt expresse it . For when he hath ons denied it , that is to say , when he hath on s thought the no trew man , doutles that negacyon ( lyke as a dedly synne on repented ) whether he slepe or wake whether he thynke or thynke not of it / whether he showe it or showe it not , is yet all the whyle in hym no mo , no lesse , nor none other , but euen the very same one styll , as it was at the fyrst / and can neuer be iustly sayd , to be twayne , or twyse made tyll he hym selfe ▪ as who say , cut it in twayne , by grauntyng thy trauth , that is to say , by thynkyng the a trewe man on s agayne , and then after that , denie it as he dyde before . But then , in very ded it may be trewly sayd , that he hath twyse denied thy trauth , or els not : for so many tymes doth he thynke the no trewe man , as he doth bytwene eche tyme , thynke the contrary : but yf he neuer thynke the contrarye , then is all that , how longe so euer it endureth , but euen one thought , and one negacyon of thy trauth . Therfore all that whyle , how often so euer he do expresse it , or how dyuersly so euer he doth reherse it , all is but the showynge , of a thynge so longe denyed / and not of a thynge so often , or many tymes denyed . For yf I sholde say this day / thou art no trewe man , and the same agayne to morow , and also the next daye after / neuer thynkyng the contrary bytwene : I sholde not therin thre tymes denye thy trauth / but I sholde therin thre tymes show , that I denye it : that is to say , I sholde showe thryes , that I denye it . As one sentence may be showed or rehersed thryes , yet the same thryes showyng or thryes rehersyng , doth not make it thre sentences . For it is two thynges to show the .xx. tymes what I denye : and to denye xx . tymes , that I showe the , bycause in the tone , there is .xx. negacyons , and in the tother , there is but one . It shall not be therfore agayn this , that moste men do thynke , euery thynge , to be so often denyed , as they heare the negacyon therof , expressed and represented to theyr ears : for therin consyder not they , whether it doth styll contynue and abyde all one , as wel when it is not expressed and showed , but kept before and after within / as when it is moost manyfestely and openly disclosed . It is not also agayne this nother , Luc. 22 that saynt Peter thryes denyed chryst : bycause that negacyon was of an other kynd , then this is / for of that coude neuer folowe no chryst , as it must nedes do of this . That was in dede but fayned , restynge in wordes onely , and not in the mynde . For all though it semed and so be sayed , ( as ryght well it may ) that he denied chryst : yet maye it be trewely sumway sayd the contrary : for he denied but that he knew hym . It is two thynges , for me to denye the , that is to saye , to denye what thou art , and to denye , that I know the. No heretyke doth denie that he knoweth chryst ( for all the maynye of them semeth to confesse hym & no men in maner so myche ) but for all that , they do in dede denye what he is , whiche is ten tymes wors . Howbeit saynt Peter denied but that he knew hym , the whiche was but a fayned negacyon / & dyd onely consyst in wordes : for it was otherwyse in his mynde / bycause he dyd bothe thynke & know , that he knewe hym / and dyd for fere but fayne the contrarye . wherfore all such fayned negacyons which hath theyr beynges not in mynde / but onely in wordes , maye trewely be sayd all way , to be so many , as they be sondry tymes rehersed & spoken , But so maye not this hereticall negacyon that we now speke of / whiche doth rest in the mynde onely , mych more subtylly , mych more secretly , and therfore a thousandfolde more dayngerously , then is possyble , for the ineloquyble infyrmyte of the possessours & hauers therof to perceyue , or so mych as think for theyr owne partes . Now therfore , all this well consydered , it is not hard to perceyue , that the denyenge of chryste in one article , is ( without any maner of intermyssyon ) as contynewall therin : as it is in .xx. articles mo , or in them all / and what so euer is contynewall , is nother mo nor fewer / nother oftener , nor syldomer , but vtterly all one . wherefore clene agayne thyn opinion , no oftener doth he denie chryst , whych dyrectely denieth hym in all th articles , then doth he , whiche directely denied hym but in one alone . what dyfference therfore ( bycause this wyll not serue ) canst thou make els betwene them , but that the tone is euen yet this waye as euyll , as is the tother , whom thou thynkest to be mych wors .

The .xv. chap. Hereti .

Syr , be you not yet at a poynt ?

Ca.

why doest thou aske .

He.

I wolde fayne haue some wordes with you .

Ca.

I praye the a good felowshyppe , spare not , saye what thou lyste .

He.

Surely then wyll I saye , that ye shall neuer auoyde .

Ca.

In dede ?

He.

ye shall se .

Ca.

Go to than .

He.

He that denieth all th artycles , doth denie chryst dyrectely , that is to saye , with aperte wordes expressely . But mych wors is it , so to do , then to denie hym but indyrectely , as he doth , whiche denyeth but one article . wherfore it must of necessyte folow , that he which denyeth all the articles , is myche wors , then tother whiche denieth but one .

Ca.

Is it this , which can not be auoyded ?

He.

I thynke ye shall so fynde it .

Ca.

Fyrste yf I wyll not admytte this , that it is wors to denie chryst directely , then indyrectely . How wylt thou proue it ?

He.

That is sone done , by this reason . The comune iudgement of all men , doth take the denyenge of chryst dyrectely , to be myche wors then the tother . And sure it is , that the comune iudgement of all men , can neuer be false . wherfore the denyenge of chryst dyrectely , must nedes be wors then tother . Agayne yf nede be this waye . The more euyll , doth euer moue the comune dysposytion of all men , the more greuously to punysshe it . But the denieng of chryste directely moueth all men , more greuously to punyshe it , then the tother . wherfore the tother is not so euyll as it is .

Ca.

Hast thou sayd .

He.

ye syr , and that well I suppose .

Ca.

That is ynough to the. All though it be nothynge so / as it shall sone appere . For it is , all moste with one worde , clene ouerthrowen all to gyther .

Hereti .

Trowe ye so syr ?

Ca.

why doeth not the hoole pyth of all thy sayeng onely rest in this , that the comune iudgement of all men , do take the denyenge of chryst directely , to be mych wors then tother ? But how fals is that , when the moste parte , of all men pondereth it no faute at all ? For who doeth any thynge regarde this mater , but chrysten men onely , whiche be not all men , nor yet ( as it is sayde ) the moste parte nother . The comune iudgement of all men , were in dede a good princyple to reason by , where it is trewely taken and may haue place Then is all chrysten people not only in a fals iudgement ( bycause they take hym so ) but also in a synfull purpose euermore , bycause they be alwaye , wyllyng to punyshe hym , more then the tother . But so euyll to iudge of al chrysten people , were a great wyckednes . wherfore there is no dout , but that he is in dede , mych wors than tother .

Ca.

A syrre , thou styckest well to it , what so euer the trauth be .

He.

Thynk you syr , that the trauth is in any other wyse then I say ?

Ca.

ye thou mayst be sure therof : for thou goest about to proue by theyr punyshmentes , what the degrees of theyr euyls be . when thou sholdest rather clene contrary , by the degrees of theyr euyls proue , what the dyfference of theyr punysshementes ought to be . But neuerthelesse , what more punyshement seest thou prepared , for the tone then the tother ?

He.

Syr all though that peraduenture , be but bycause the case hath not be sene , that any suche as the tone of them is , hath be founde or harde of : yet yf it sholde fortune so to come to passe . I thynke men wold then prepare and ordayne a more greuous payne for hym , then for the tother . And that wolde they neuer do , yf they thought hym no wors , then the tother is .

Ca.

well , suppose the same . yet is there ( I praye the ) any other cause why ? but that they do apertely perceyue , his hole euyl all togyther , from the fyrst , as who say , to the last . And incomparyson therof , almoste nothynge at all of the tother ? for without fayle , yf they saw the hole euyll of the tone , so open and manyfest , as they do of the tother : there is no dout but that they wolde then , punysshe moost , whom thou thynkest vtterly leste : for in the tone , they wolde surely venge the quarell of chryste / and lekewyse in the tother not onely that , but also the quarell of theyr neyghbours to / of whome sometyme he sendeth so many to hell . But all that not withstandyng whyle men doth iudge , for the moste part , rather by gesse ( as I sayde ) thenne by very knowlege , and more after as thynges doth apere , then as they be in dede . Thou mayst not consyder & esteme , the qualytees and degrees of euyls , after the punyshementes , receyued at theyr handes . Specyally , when thou seest many tymes , as mych mynistred for the stealyng of an hors , as for kylling of a man . Howbeit yf thou wylt nedes perpende and waye the degrees of euyls after ther punyshmentes prepared for them , it must then be after those whiche are prepared of god ( who shall geue to euery man after his workes ) and not after those , Mat. 1 which are mynystred or ordeyned of men .

He.

Syr it is now by your owne sayeng come euen to the poynt ( as I sayd ryght now ) that yf he which directely denyeth euery artycle , be no wors then is the tother , whiche denyeth but one . Playne it is then that all chrysten people be in a contynewall iniquite , bycause they be allwaye wyllynge and redy , to punyshe hym more then the tother .

Ca.

That wyll not folow , for they may iustly punyshe the tone , more greuously , then the tother . All though nother of them bothe be any wors then other .

He.

How so ?

Ca.

Is there any thyng more worthy hell , then the denyeng of chryst .

He.

No , that is clere .

Ca.

Then doth hell playnely testyfye that there can be no punyshement in this world , suffycyent for any of them both , when they be bothe denyers of chryste . And therfore of all men most worthy of hell , which farre excedyth all other paynee . wherfore what iniquyte or iniustyce can it be , that men wold alwaye more bytterly punysh the tone then the tother , when they are neuer able to mynyster so mych to hym , whom in offendyng , thou thynkest moste : as is very dewe to the tother , whom in lyke maner thou thynkest lest . Therfore so longe as the punyshment , dothe not excede the quantyte of the faute , all men knoweth that vtterly wronge , can it be none . But full well I wote , what trowblethe thy cogytacyon herein . Thou doest thynke , that yf they be bothe lyke euyll , the tone hath wrong , yf he be punyshed any more then the tother when clene contrary , better thou myghtest reken that the tother hath rather wrong , yf he be not punyshed , as mych as he / bycause none of them bothe , can haue in dede , so mych as his euyll , dothe dewly require . Therfore whyle thou fyndest no faute , in the lesser punyshment of the tone . And whyle I haue proued no wrong , in the more punishment of the tother / yet styll it standeth for all that thou hast hytherto sayde , that they be bothe , euen to them selfe one at lest , as euyll as an other .

The .xvii. chap. He.

NAy syr not so . For yet that must I nedes denie .

Ca.

wherfore

He.

I suppose ye haue not so sone forgotten , what I sayd vnto you , euen almost , but right now .

Ca.

what was that ?

He.

Suche as maye not be slypt ouer after this maner .

Ca.

Let me ones then here it agayne .

He.

with a good wyl . For yf ye be remembred , it was euen this . He that denieth al th articles , denieth christ directely , that is to saye , with apert wordes expressely . But mych wors is it , so to do then to denie him indirectely or consequentely , as he doth , which denieth directely but one artycle . wherfore it must of necessite folowe , that he whiche denieth all th artycles , is myche wors , then the tother , which denieth directely but one .

Ca.

Is this all the mater ?

He.

Is it not ynough ?

Ca.

why let me heare , how thou canst fyrst proue , ( as I sayd ) that it is wors , to denie christ directely then indirectely .

He.

Marry syr it is more playne then can nede any probacyon : for you sayd euen now your selfe , that no man wolde abyde the herynge of hym , that wold so do . And therfore when it aperyth of your owne wordes , that he is farre more odible to euery man , then the tother is / and that coude neuer be , but by the reason that his euyll doth mych more astonyshe vex and offende theyr cogitacyon , then the tothers doth : it muste therof clerely folow , that he is mych wors then the tother is .

Ca.

All ( as I perceyue ) that moueth that this to thynke , is no more but bycause mens consyderacyon dothe abhorre , more hym then the tother . as good reason it is , that it sholde so be , and yet in dede , is the tother , as euyll as he . For mans mynde is greued and troubled two maner of wayes , one with the thynge it selfe : and an other with the manner or cyrcumstaunce of the same . The maner also , or the cyrcumstaunce of it , doth somtyme make the thynge to be wors in dede , then it is of it self , and therfore the more odyble to / & somtyme it maketh it more odyble , and yet neuer the wors in dede , for all that : as after this ensample , it shal more playnly appere . Murder thou knowest , is of it selfe a thyng , which gretely doth offende and abhorre the mynde of men / but yet yf one kyll a manne sodenly , ere he beware of hym , comyng vppon hym preuelye by stelth , or ellys trayne hym with some fals flateryng promyses , and therby conuaye hym , to some dayngerous place or companye , where he is sure he shall not schape hym , or by any suche other meanes , as he can make no maner of shyfte , to soccur , helpe , or defend hym selfe . This maner or circumstaunce , doth make the murder mych wors in dede , and therfore myche the more odyble to / then yf he had gyuen hym some warnynge or lybertye to shyfte for hym selfe : that is to saye , that yf he had kylde hym ( as they call it ) manfully / and not so lyke a coward and traytorously . Agayne also for the tother part / yf thou sawest one kyll a man before thy face / and then hearde tell of an other , which also dyd the same lyke wyse in an other place / thy mynde sholde mych more abhore the tone then the tother / & yet is there none of them both any wors then other : therfore all that , ryseth by the reason of th onely presence of the tone done in thy syghte , whyche maketh a dyfference bytwen them , in thyne estymacyon / and yet is there none bytwene them in dede . Also yf thou sawest one stryke and hurte a man / and euen then , an other lykewyse an other / wherof the tone dyeth by and by / and the tother halfe a yere after : The deth of the fyrst , sholde mych more greuously touche , and trouble thy mynde , then sholde the tother , & therfore moue the to take it wors , all though there be in the thyng no such difference , nor cause why , of it selfe . But so cometh it to passe , by the present suddennesse , of the tone , whiche is not in the tother , whose propertye is alwaye to put men ( specyally in odyble thynges ) rather in a passyon then in a iuste iudgement : by the reason wherof they do take , that euyll effecte whiche foloweth his cause immedyately , and so toucheth theyr cogytacyons at the fyrst , to be mych wors then the tother of the same degre , which foloweth , as who say , by leysour , crepyng lytell and lytell in to theyr knowlege at laste : for the presence , and also the suddennesse , of euery greuous euyll , is of suche properte , as doeth alwaye cause it to seme , and so therfore to be iudged and taken , wors then when it is absent and farder of , or when it cometh to knowlege leysourly ( as I sayd ) by meane at length . And yet is the thynge it selfe all one : for yf the deth of hym , which dyeth halfe a yere after , myght come with the cause therof , so presentely and so suddenly to thy knowlege , as the deth of hym doth , which dyeth by & by , doutles thou sholdest then take the last as greuously as the fyrste , & none other wyse be mouyd with the tone then the tother , but indyfferently with them bothe / as thou art now , whyle I , as it were therof in dede , tell the the tale : for thou art I am sure , no more moued now with the tone then the tother / and all bycause , they be bothe from , or to thy cogitacyon , of lyke dystaunce . All this therfore , well perpended & consydered . Euen myche after the same maner , is the denyenge of chryste dyrectely , and the denyeng of hym indirectly or consequently : whiche be taken ( in dede as thou sayst ) the tone farre wors then the tother , not bycause it is so , but bycause of a certeyne maner of cyrcumstaunce , which causeth it but onely to seme so : for when I here any one artycle denyed ( wherof it doth ( as I sayd ) of necessyte alwaye folow , that chryst is denyed in the same ) yf my cogytacyon coulde then , arreche and touche therin , the very same occult and secrete denyenge of chryst , so clerly & so manyfestly , so quyckely and so presently , as it can the tother , when he is at that fyrst directely and expressely denyed . Doutles I sholde then , take it as greuously , as odybely , and iudge it iustly euen as euyl , as I do , when I heare hym denyed dyrectly with expressed wordes . But now by the reason that my consyderacyon , before it can this waye , come fynally to the very thyng in dede , must fyrste make therin a large progressyon , & ( as it were ) a longe yourney to go . Fyrst to consyder th article denyed / and then that the trauth of chryste is denyed in the same . Tyrdely , that chryst and his trauth , are both our . Fynally that it muste therof nedes folow , that he therin is denied hym selfe / by the reason ( I say ) that my consyderacyon , with this maner of mocyon and labor , halfe ( as who saye ) weryed and fatygate is ( as it were ) not so actyue and lustye , but more week , dull , and vnapt , to receyue vew and iudge , the thynge at length in th ende , then it wolde haue ben , yf it had met , in maner , freshly withall , at the fyrst begynnyng . It doth therfore mych take the mater there after / & all bycause it is not this waye , so easy & reddy to come by , as it is the tother : for as men iudge alwaye , those paynes whiche be present , to be mych wors , then those in euery degre , of as mych grefe , or the very same in dede , when they be absent and farder of . Euen so do they iudge that euyll , whiche is directely expressed , to be wors , then an other in euery condicyon of the same degre , or the very same it self , when it occupyeth the place of a consequent , that is to say , when it is not directely expressed , but left to folow , and geuen of necessyte to be vnderstand : for then it is fro mans cogitacyon , as it were a great waye , and farre of , bycause it soundeth not in the earys so presently and apertly , as when it is directely expressed at the fyrste . And therfore the mynde can not so take or touche it , vntyll it may , by a dew cource of thynges , from one to an other ordinatly , come to it at length . By the reason wherof it beginneth so leysourly to appere to the mynd a farre of at the fyrste , and then after nere and nere / that when it cometh , it bryngeth theyrwith , no maner of suddennesse , whiche can cause therin any great perturbans or astonyshement , whose propertye is alway to gender diuersyte of iudgement . Therfore this indyrect and consequent denyenge of chryst ( which is in euery syngular article ) doth also lye , or behaue it selfe to a mans consyderacion , mych as doth a visyble thynge to his eye , sumwhat farder of , then is the commune dew distaunce of discernynge therof / or els , beyng in a lyght , sumwhat more scant & obscure , then is apte for most men to perceyue it by . For the whiche , it is sene , of some more , some lesse , & of some neuer a dele . And therfore it doth not draw mens iudgement therof , so perfytly vnto it , nor show it selfe vnto them so clerely / as yf it stode nere , or in a more pure lyght . And euen very such lyke is a consequens , wherof euery mans cogytacyon is not lyke capax / but some more , some lesse , and some nothyng at all , or very lyttell : and all , by the reason it lyeth somwhat beyonde , the comune iorney of moste mens consyderacyon / bycause it cometh not before in the face of the mater / but as who saye , in the backe syde of it , farre , as it were behynde , & longe after . For the whiche , it doth not so vehemently moue the mynde that waye , as it doth the tother . And therfore men take it not so euyll ; nor are so mych offended withall . But yf a mans cogitacyon were of suche abylyte , that it coulde as clerely , as perfytely , and as swetly , ye rather as presently touch and take a consequent , that is to saye , that thynge , which of an other must nedes folow , ( & that perchaunce longe after ) as yf it were dyrectely expressed with apert wordes at the fyrste . There is no dout , but then he that denyeth chryst ( as euery heretyke doth ) but consequently , shold sone appere euyn as euyll , as he , whiche denieth hym with apert wordes directely : for dyfference bytwen them is there none , but onely this yf any be . That the very same , which is at the fyrst , with the tone , is euen also at the last with the tother : for where as the wordes of the tone , showeth the denyeng of chryst at the fyrste / euen so doth the wordes of the tother , showe the very same , at that last . And that thou myghtest clerely know that there is none other dyfference bytwene them , but onely thynsuffycyence of mans capacyte , whiche is not able to arreche them bothe lyke . Thou shalt not denye me this but euery thynge is vtterly none , otherwyse than god doth know if : & this is also sure , that there can be no consequence or folowyng of any thynge , in his knowlege : for what so euer is consequent & folowynge to vs , is without fayle before hym no lesse apparent but also as present , not onely as that is , wherof it doth folow / but also as yf it selfe were directely expressed at the fyrst , or as any thyng els , is or may be , moste present & manyfest vnto vs . wherin the powre and concept of our myndes , doth ( as I haue largely declared ) very gretely fayle , and is farre of . Therfore whether chryst be denyed directely or consequently , when there is , euen here among vs , none other dyfference bytwene them , but onely this / that the tone , is so apers open and manyfest , that it is , at the fyrst perceyued of any man . And that tother so close , secrete , and darke , that it can not be perceyued , euen at length , but of few men . How clere is it , that there is vtterly in dede no difference bytwene them at all , before god ? where there is nothyng obscure , nothyng occult , nothyng hyd , nothynge consequent / but all bryght , all open , all manyfest , and all euen very present : wherfore to plane it is to be denyed yet styll ( for any thynge that thou hast obiected to the contrary ) that he which denyeth chryst consequently , that is to saye he whiche denieth directely but the leste part of the fayth , is no lesse euyll then he , whiche with expressed wordes , directely denyeth chryst hym selfe and all togyther . when he doth the same thynge as manyfestly before god , as that tother doeth it before men / excepte thou say , thynges be otherwyse in dede , then god doth se them before hym , which euermore iudgeth ( as seynt Poule sayth ) accordyng to trauth .

The .xviii. chap. Hereticus

NO no syr I wyll not say so / but I wyll saye this , that it is a gay thynge to dyspute alone . For then a man maye all waye at his pleasure conclude , what so euer he lyst .

Ca.

Thou shalt not nede so to saye , for I haue none otherwyse concluded , but that thou shalt haue audyence with leasoure ynough , to say what thou canst , yf thou haue any thynge left therto .

He.

yes I trowe I haue / and that ynough to dyspache all this mater withall .

Ca.

Naye I pray the none of that , for thou begylest me then in dede .

He.

yet suche am I sure it is .

Ca.

what so euer it be , I wolde ones heare it .

He.

Heare it ? why syr think you ( what so euer ye saye ) to make me yet beleue , that he which dyrectly denieth but one article , is in euery respect , as euyll as he , which directly denieth , with open mouth as they saye , chryst hym selfe , and all togyther ? Nay , nay , yet am I none of that sort , whiche can be ledde by the eare , in a thynge so manyfest .

Ca.

Now do I well perceyue , thou begylest me in dede : for I hadde went ( accordyng to thy fyrste promyse ) that thou woldest haue folowed reason .

He.

what syr thynke you , that I wyll not so do ?

Ca.

So it semyth when thou wylt nedes , dissent from the thynges which I haue sayde , & show me no reason why .

He.

yes I wyll show you good reason why , and that suche as ye haue not yet harde hytherto .

Ca.

Go to then let vs haue it / & make no more a do .

He.

Syr this is well knowen to all men , that when one doeth a faute agaynst his wyll , it can neuer be so euyll , as when it is wylfully done .

Ca.

So it semeth .

He.

Nay it is so in dede .

Ca.

Procede then , tey not therwith the mater any longer .

He.

He therfore , which denieth chryst in dyrectly or consequently / denieth hym agayne his wyll ( for as it appereth many wayes , there is no man more loth to denie hym then he is ) but the tother whiche denieth hym with apert wordes directly , denieth hym euen very wylfully . wherfore it is not possyble , but that he muste be wors then the tother , which denieth hym but consequently .

Ca.

ye but I saye countrey man , I do not perceyue , that the tone denyeth hym any more wylfully , then the tother doth .

He.

what it is to playn .

Ca.

Not to me , for I se not the contrary , but that he whiche denieth hym consequently , doth that hym selfe doth / euen as wylfully , as the tother , doth that he doth : for he that denieth hym directely / denieth hym no more wylfully , then the tother doth that same article , wherin he denyeth hym consequently .

He.

No marry syr I graunte ye that / but yet , he is not ware , as the tother is what is included , in his negacyon .

Ca.

Aha , he is not ware . I wote now ryght well , what thou menest all this whyle . Thou woldest I perceyue say this , that a faute can neuer be so euyll , when it is done vnwars and ignorantly / as when it is done euen ware and wyttyngly .

He.

Syr the same is euen it , that I mene in dede .

Ca.

Some thought , and therfore show me thy mynde agayne , with the same termes , and perchaunce I wyll satysfye that mych more playnly by the reason therof .

He.

That can not I beleue .

Ca.

Assaye .

He.

That wyll I do : he that denieth chryste but consequently , doutles denieth hym vnwars and ignorantly : but he that denyeth hym with apert wordes directely , denieth hym full ware and wyttyngly / wherfore how is it possyble , but that he , of necessyte must nedes be mych wors , then the tother , whiche denieth hym but consequently ?

Ca.

The second part of thy reason , is clene fals .

He.

what is it ?

Ca.

Euen as I tell the.

He.

Then we haue it , yf he that doth a faute wyttyngly , be no wors therin , then he , which doth it ignorantly .

Ca.

what my frende I saye not so . For that is playne ynough to all men . But I can not fynde any such thyng in this matter , that we speke of .

He.

why doth not he which denieth chryst directly and expressely with apert wordes , denye hym euen ware & wyttyngly ?

Ca.

No no , I wyste full well , all this whyle , wherin thou woldest be clene deceyued . For be thou ryght well assured , that there is no man in all this worlde , that wolde denie chryst , yf he were ware what he is . For so ware is he what chryste is whiche denyeth hym directely : as he is ware , what his hole fayth is , whiche denieth all that directely . And so ware is he what his hole fayth is , which denieth all that dyrectely , as he is ware what one article of it is , whiche denieth but that alone directly : and that alone doth he vtterly not knowe , nor so mych as beleue nother . For sure it is that yf he dyd , he wolde not denye it / no more therfore doth he the hole faith nor yet chryst hym selfe , whiche denyeth hym and it , directly all togyther : what warenesse or wyttyngnesse therfore , is there here , more in the tone then the tother ? Also there can no man be an heretyke , but bycause he denieth at leste some one artycle of the fayth . And that wold he neuer do , but bycause he byleueth vtterly that it is none , wherof it foloweth clerely , that he wold neuer denye it , yf he dyd know that it were one . For very mych more able , is the knowlege then the byleue of any thynge , to let and withstande the denyenge of it . Therfore loke what lacke , bothe of fayth and knowlege , he hath in one artycle , which diectly denieth but it alone . Euyn that very same hath he in both , which denyeth twayne . And also in eche of them lykewyse hath he , whiche doth denye thre / & so forth after the same maner , from one to an other , tyll it come to hym , which directely denieth chryst and them all . Therfore when he that directly denyeth chryste and all his hole fayth , hath no more fayth nor knowledge of hym or it , then hath he , of that one article , which directly denyeth but the same one alone . what more warely or wyttyngly doth the tone then the tother , but euen lyke ignorauntly bothe ? And besyde this , clerely to knyt vp the mater withall . The knowledge of any thynge , is ( as I sayde ) myche more able to let and restrayne the denienge therof , then is the fayth or byleue of it . But thou faith of chryst ( as it is well knowen ) maye be so great , that it wyll surely cause euen this lyfe it selfe , with all the comodytees therof , to be clene lost & forsaken , rather then to denye hym in any case . what wolde therfore the very knowlege of hym do , yf a man had that ? when that draweth , a thousandfolde more loue towarde hym , then all his fayth , in the most perfyt degre , is able to do . Moreouer when the greatnesse of fayth , is of it selfe suffycyent & able , to houlde and kepe , who so euer hath it , from the denyeng of chryst in euere condycyon . And when it is sure also , that the very knowlege of hym , is therto mych more able then it is . How clerely doth it folow therof , that who so euer denieth hym directely neuer doth it ware or wyttyngly ? why therfore doest thou saye , that he , which dyrectely denyeth but the leste part of the fayth , is not so euyl as he , which dyrectly denieth chyrst hymselfe and all together , bycause although he denyeth consequently as mych as the tother doth , yet he doth it vnwars and ignorantly / & the tother ware & wyttyngly , when there is no such mater or difference bytwene them , as thou thy selfe canst now , I suppose , not chose but perceyue ? Therfore not withstandynge this , or any other thyng els , which thou hast hytherto sayd to the contrary . I wyll yet say , as I sayd at the fyrst / that as great is his euyll , which directely denyeth but the lest parte of the fayth / as his euyll is , which directely denyeth chryst hym selfe and all togyther . As great I say , not in this or that respecte , but vtterly in euery condycyon / and in dyuers cases ( as I haue shewed the before ) also mych wors , not onely towarde other , but also towarde hymselfe . This dyfference bytwen them onely except , that the contrary , fastly remayneth in the grosse & ignorant iudgement of the multytude / the cause wherof I tolde the before ( as it is in dede ) euen to be this , that they do see openly , the hole euyll of the tone . And in comparyson therof , obscurely , so small a parte of the tother / that some taketh it more , some lesse , some very lytell , & some no euyll at all . what wonder therfore is it , all though the hole clere trauth therof , be farre awaye , from so great a dyuersyte of such a darke ignoraunce .

The .xix. chap. Here.

HAd I ben at the fyrste so wyse to haue folowed this comune prouerbe : Principus obsta .

Ca.

what vnderstandest thou latin ?

He.

ye syr somwhat so so .

Ca.

Ah I am wel apayed for a thyng that I know .

He.

I pray you what is that ?

Ca.

Go forth make an ende of thy tale thou art about / & thou shalt knowe here after .

He.

Marry syr , hadde I ben , I saye , so wyse at the fyrst begynnynge herof , to haue folowed this comune prouerbe , which byddeth a man alway to resyste & withstande the origynall causes of euery inconuenyence , this thynge had neuer come to that poynte , it is ●ow at . For where as I was than , in dede not all thyng so cyrcumspect to consyder , what therof at length wolde folow / as very auydyous to heare , how you wolde handle ( as me thought ) so straunge a mater . I dyd mych more slenderly then I neded , let slyppe and passe ouer , the very ground of all togyther : by the reason wherof , it is now , to say the trauth , thorow myne owne neglygens , so farre gone , that in good fayth , I wote nere what I maye more saye to it , in the case it is in , then I haue done alredy / where at the fyrst , I coude well haue stayed and stopt it all togyther with ease .

Ca.

Countreyman thou doest not very well please me , with this maner of communycacyon : for more doest thou now seme , to confute & refell , all that I haue hytherto said with ( as who saye ) this arrogant confessyon of thyne owne symple & fayned neglygens . Then with all the obiections , whiche thou hast , or art able , to make to the contrarye : for thou , by this meanes in maner as who saye sklaunderst it , to be grounded vpon a false pryncyple . wherof it muste nedes folowe , yf it were so in dede , that it were but all voyde and nothynge worth : vse therfore I praye the no more such maner : but yf thou thynke the princyple , wherof it doth ryse & iustely folowe , to be insuffycyent in any poynt / showe where the faute is , & make no more a do .

He.

ye knowe syr it maye not well stande with a mans honesty , clene to ouerthrow , or greatly to disprayse , that he hath semed longe to vpholde , and borne withall .

Ca.

why , what menest thou by that ?

He.

Syr well ye wote , that I haue hytherto made obiections agayne all those thynges , whiche ye haue sayd for the most parte / your pryncyple except : but that haue I yet in maner sayd nothyng agayne tyll euen very now , that I tell you what I coulde do : yf it were not partly agayne myne honestye / bycause I haue semed to bere withall so longe .

Ca.

what my frend , wylt thou be there styll ? hast thou suche a prety cast with the , that when thou art dreuen to suche a streyght , as where thou canste no farther , yet thou wylt leue the mater in so great a suspycyon of errour , that it shall seme to be all fals / be it neuer so trewe . Nay nay , this euasyon is to manyfest and playne , to do the any seruyce at this tyme . For thou hast ben to full of obiections in euery thynge , that I haue hytherto sayd , to make me now byleue , that thou were neglygent , in lettynge slyppe the pryncyple and ground of all the hole mater , takyng as who say no very good hede to that : when thou oughtest of all thynges in especyall therof , to be most vigilant ware & cyrcumspect , as it dyd ryght well , euyn then appere , that ( what so euer thou now sayst ) thou were in very ded : for more therin thou dydest not graunte , then the very inuyncyble strength of trauth , dyd euen compell and dreue the to . Therfore this beyng but a fayned excuse , whyle it is so , that thou hast els ( as I perceyue by thyne owne wordes ) no more in dede herein to saye / my counsell vtterly shall be this ( accordynge to thy fyrste promyse ) well to content thy self with reason , wherof ( I dare well saye ) thou hast herde herein so myche , that thou mayste rather blame me , for the superfluyte of many thynges mo then neded . Then for the lack of any one , which of necessite might be requyred . wherfore , somewhat from this mater , wyll I now to another / for the which I haue desyred most chyefly to talke with the.

The .xx. chap. Hereti .

WHat so euer ye saye , I suppose ye wyll not leue this matter thus .

Ca.

wherfore not ?

He.

is not the cause , why any thynge is done , more of estymacion , then the thyng it selfe , whiche is done for it ?

Ca.

That I graunte .

He.

I maruayle therfore greatly , that ye haue declared vnto me this mater so largely / and wolde now thus leue it , showynge me no word why , or for what purpose ye haue hytherto brought it . when without that , it were but in maner , as who say , halfe naked and lytell worth .

Ca.

Now countreyman , I can the very good thank it is surely well spoken . But thou mayst se what it is , for the mynde to be besyed , with many thynges at ones / by the reason wherof , it chaunceth somtyme , that memory leseth nothynge more soner / then the very whiche , it sholde kepe nothynge reddyer . Therfore syns thou doste requyre ( as reason doth bynde me to declare ) why & wherfore , I haue showed the thus myche hytherto . Doutles there be causes twayne / of the whiche , one , in very dede is trauth . And the other without fayll is falshed . For as touchynge the fyrste / yf I had founde , any other then trauth , in any thynge that I haue sayd / be thou well assured , I wolde neuer haue spoken it : yet that not withstandynge so myche had I not done for all that nother / yf I had not therto , ben greatly moued , by an excedynge and a wonders falshed . The which in very dede is euen this . The time is not yet farre out of mynde , when of all euyls , that worketh mannes destruction , there was none taken so greuous & odyble , as in especyall heresye and treason / and of the twayne , yet heresye the worst . But now , treason abydyng in his olde odibylyte styll ( as god forbede but it shold in dede ) Heresye hath founde the meanes ( how so euer it cometh to passe ) so to haue crept out of that euyll fauorde garment of his dew hatred ( wherein it was ryghte worthyly wrapped ) & hath ryde it selfe therof so clene / that it is now taken , of some , to be in maner but a commune offence : agayne of some , to be very small . And also of some to be none at all : ye and of some ( whiche is worst of all ) to be very relygyon & holynesse / in so mych that when diuerse of such as be infected withal , are spoken of , rehersed and noted in copanyes and of one sort lamented and pytyed for such poyntes as therof they haue , so playne open & manyfest , as in no case can be defended . yet tushe , sayeth an other sort , a tryfle , a small mater , well is he that hath no faute : the man is very sadde sober & wyse , for all that there can be no honester man then he is . And so forth , in suche maner , that where as they haue not for it , so myche as any glose or colour of defence / whiche for feate or shame , they dare attempt to brynge forth / yet so mych , as to them is possyble / they wolde by this meanes , attenuate and qualyfye the mater so , that they myght swade men to take it , at the lest very lytell , or nothynge blame worthy atal . wherfore seyng this worde heresye , hath / to say the trauth / among very many , agaynst all ryght and reason , lost his olde proper , and worthylye , most hatefull signyficacyon . And now in the place therof , hath as falsely purchaysed an other , whiche is of all thynges most desyderable , that is to saye , the folowynge of chryst / for doutles now a dayes , one is no soner to note an heretike but streight wey , theyr fayleth not of ynow , euen therin noted hym a folower of chryste / seynge therfore / I saye / that this worde heresye , hath lost with many , his olde sygnificacyon , so farre vniustly . And hath opteyned an other as excedynge falsely / ye & bothe , to the great perdicion of very many . I wolde to god therfore , some other worde were now put in the stede therof . whiche myght dyrectely sygnifie and show men , the selfe same thyng at the fyrst . which it wyll surely lede and drawe , the dew and iuste order of reason , to espye and fynde in it at the last / that is to saye . I wolde to god suche a worde were now put in the place of it / as myght playnely sygnyfy , the very denyeng of chryst at the fyrst . The whiche is not in it so obscure and darke / but that without fayle , an apt and a hole mynde , maye yet easely se and perceyue it at laste . Therfore yf this were so / there is no man . I thynke verely , so crokedly cumberde with that clowde of dayngerous darkenesse , but that it wold , yet one waye or other , some what fraye hym , so rashely therin to vse hymselfe , as many one doth god knoweth to the great hurt ▪ not onely of them selfe , but also of dyuers other mo . wherfore that this blynde falshed ( to make the thynge wonders lyght , beynge among all other , of moste greatest weyght ) shold not be alway to the vnknowen ( as I perceyue it hath ben hytherto ) so mych therof I haue disclosed as may ( me thynke ) be for the suffycyent . And to that intent haue I treated hereof so largely , and ben therin ( I feere ) somwhat tedyous vnto the. But euen now therfore , wyll I to my pryncypall purpose dyrectely .

The .xxi. chap. Hereti .

ALthough ye make me very desyrous , ye and euen thynke longe to heare it . yet is there one thynge , whiche doth not a lytell disquiete my mynde . wherof fayne wolde I fyrst , be somwhat eased yf it myght be .

Ca.

what is the mater ?

He.

Syr now to be playn with you , without fayle I haue hytherto borne half a grudge in my stomak agaynst a certayne thynge , whyche ye spake at our fyrst metynge .

Ca.

I praye the what was that ?

Here.

Doutles a thynge I maye saye to you , that toucheth the quycke .

Ca.

Thou makest me greately muse therat .

He.

Not so mych as ye make me , what sholde moue you to speake it .

Ca.

I praye the what is it ?

He.

Marry syr ye sayed that I am an heretyke .

Ca.

I had no such wordes , to my knowledge .

Here.

That is no mater , when ye sayde that ye wolde haue asked me the questyon , whether I were one or not , yf it had not ben for this , that ye were sure ye sayd , that I coude not tell , bycause there is no heretyke that can tell , or so myche as thynke , that hym selfe is one .

Ca.

And what of this ?

He.

what of this ? doeth it not therof playnely folowe that I am one ?

Ca.

why then thou art one .

He.

A wyll ye so syr ? I say it must nedes folowe of your wordes , that I am one .

Ca.

And I say then thou art one in dede / for whyther it must nedes folow of my wordes , or wherof so euer besyde / this is sure , yf it must nedes folow , it must nedes be so . And therfore by this , one thou art , make of it what thou wylt .

He.

Tushe ye be dysposed to tryppe me now , in the maner of my spekynge , when ye knowe ryght well , my menynge is this , that it must nedes folow of your wordes , that you do take me for one .

Ca.

O that I do take the for one ? what of that I praye the ? a great mater and a greuous , as the worlde now goeth . when there be many euen proude and gladde of the name , rather then a shamed or dyscontented withall .

He.

Syr I am none of that sorte / and therfore it is to me , no small wonder , that ye wyll thus take me , neuer herynge me speke before this tyme , nor yet now nothynge nother syns we came fyrste togyther , wherof ye myghte take any reasonable occasion so to thinke in me . wherfore , yf it be not to farre out of your waye , from your purpose whiche ye haue chyefly intended / I wolde gladly knowe , what sholde moue you , to be of this opynion .

Ca.

It is no farder from my purpose , but euen , I may say to the the very hye way on to it : ye & more ouer it is , as who saye , but euen at the next dore by it . Therfore if thou wylt nedes knowe why , that I do thynke the infected with heresye . Dowtles it is ( as I promysed at the fyrst , playnely to tell the at the last ) euen the report , which I haue herd of the.

He.

The report ? is not here a straunge mater ?

Ca.

why so ?

He.

I praye you syr , dyd ye neuer heare any fals reportes in al your life ?

Ca.

yes y wys haue I , & that mo then I was , at the fyrste ware of my selfe .

He.

why therfore maye not this , that you heare of me , be one of them ?

Ca.

Show me fyrst an other thyng that I wyll aske , and I wyll then quyckly tell the.

He.

what is that ?

Ca.

Dydest thou neuer heare of any trewe reportes in all thy lyfe ?

He.

yes and that many , or els it were not happy .

Ca.

And why therfore may not this , which I do heare of the , be one of them ?

He.

Now I perceyue what ye meane well ynough . But I pray you syr , yet indifferently iudge your selfe , how great a madnesse it is , to thynke that all reportes be trewe ?

Ca.

Doutles euen no more then it is , to thynke that all be false .

He.

wyll ye be there styll ?

Ca.

ye where els ?

He.

yet I promyse you that this of me is fals , saye what ye wyll .

Ca.

And I promyse the agayne ( no more but as thou knowest thy selfe ) the veryest heretyke in all this world , nother coude nor yet wolde saye any lesse , for his part then ye. . And therfore bycause all these , be but wordes in waste , & to the purpose nothynge ellys in dede . My counsell shal be this , to let vs go forth , and stycke no longer vpon this poynt , but let it passe and make no more a do .

He.

Nay syr ye shall pardon me therof / for doutles it shal not scape me so , but I wyll surely trye myselfe therin a lytell better , ere I go any forther .

Ca.

I suppose it not best . For thou mayest fortune to fayle of thy tryal wherby the mater must then , nedes appere more playnely to be trewe , by the reason wherof , perchaunce thou shalt fall into fumes and multyplycacyon of wordes : & so shall all our purpose be defaced and in maner but lost , yf it come ones to that poynt .

He.

Syr ye haue many prety opinions in me be lyke . For fyrste ye thynke me an heretyke ▪ & now ye thynke me so impacyent , that I can not quietely abyde any communycacyon therof . As who saye , my pacyence ley in your or other mennes handes , and not in myne own lybertye ye thynke that the tart wordes or sayenges of other men shold plucke it fro me , and aske me no leue , when it shal please them to mynyster any suche occasyon . But neuertheles how so euer the mater shal be handeled of your syde ( saye or thynke of me what ye wyll ) I know the part of an honest man , in tractyng therof or any other / from the which , ye shall not se me , mych declyne I suppose .

Ca.

Thou spekest very well . And therfore where as thou sayest , thou wylt trye thy selfe in this mater , ere we go any forder : trewly to me it semeth plain that thou canst neuer brynge it to passe , by any meanes that thou canst fynde .

He.

yes yes that I trowe I can .

Ca.

which waye ?

He.

Marry syr diuers wayes , but specyally by the scrypture .

Ca.

By the scrypture ?

He.

ye syr by the scrypture . For I am sure the trauth of a mans fayth can be tryed no waye so well as by that .

Ca.

As for that is an other mater / whiche requyreth a forther disputacyon . But how by the scrypture I praye the , wylt thou trye the trauth of thy fayth ?

Here.

Syr ye know what the scrypture doth teach .

Ca.

what of that ?

He.

Euen so do I byleue .

Ca.

what maner of tryal doest thou call this ? knowest thou not , that one thynge can neuer be tryed by an other , excepte they be bothe knowne . Therfore yf thou wylt haue thy fayth tryed by the scripture , thou most fyrste playnely declare , and show what thy fayth is , and then the scrypture and it ones consydered togyther , it maye sone be sene , whether they do agre or not / but otherwyse it is not possyble .

He.

This haue I done all redy .

Ca.

what haste thou done ?

Here.

Marry syr playnely declared and showed my hole fayth .

Ca.

Not one worde to me , that I wote of .

Here.

No but yet haue I done it to dyuers other .

Ca.

what is all that , to this purpose ? thou knowest , it is I whiche do thynke the an heretyke . And how therfore wylt thou ( as thou hast pretendyd ) trye thyselfe clere vnto me ? that is to saye , how shall I knowe that thou art none .

Here.

Syr I wyll brynge you those men whom I haue showed it vnto , and they shall declare vnto you , what it is .

Ca.

Shall I beleue them , when perchaunce they wyll not tell me the trauth of it .

He.

yes that I dare saye they wyll / for they be men of hygh lernyng and of clere iudgement in thynges of the fayth .

Ca.

They be the more able to deceyue me . And whether they wyll or not , yet they may do , & to be sure that they shall not I can neuer be , vnlest I myself do heare the , declare it vnto them before my face .

Here.

I wyll not greately stycke at that .

Ca.

what shall we nede therfore of them ? for that mayst thou do now , as well to me alone .

He.

yet it is in the same case , it was before / for when I haue so done , it is for all that , at your pleasure , whether ye wyll therin beleue me or not .

Ca.

ye and perauenture I wyll not in dede .

He.

why then what maye I do more to it ?

Ca.

Tell me therfore , where is now all thy tryall become , wherwith thou woldest so fayne clere thy selfe in this mater ? is it not as I sayd ?

He.

In dede syr , to saye the trauth , I was ( as I now perceyue ) therin a lytell to rashe , to take vppon me , not onely somewhat more then I was ware of , but also mych more then I neded , for had I ben so wise to consyder so myche before , what shold I go about to take away the suspycyons myndes of other men whiche is there owne faute and not myne ? And a thynge farre beyonde my reache , when I haue done the best therin that I can . Therfore so longe as there is nothynge layed directli to my charge , it is no mater to me , what so euer men thynke , as they may do at theyr pleasure and aske me no leue .

Ca.

Then I perceyue thou art not able to proue thy self to be no heretyke , as thou dydest in tende and attempte for to do .

He.

There is nother lawe nor reason that can bynde me to it .

The .xxii. chap. Catho .

WHat yf I wyll therfore , take vppon me now , to proue that thou art one .

He.

That is another mater . I wote then ryght wel what I haue to do .

Ca.

Thou shalt surely se me , go somwhat more then nere it .

He.

Nay syr , nor so mych nother I trowe .

Ca.

yet marke it wel and tell me anone . And fyrst to begynne withall / let me treuly heare how thou doest byleue / yf thou darest be so bolde for feare or shame , to telll me .

He.

For feare or shame ? what nede that ?

Ca.

Bycause I do not perfytly knowe , whether thou be one of them ( whiche are not a few ) that haue such a fayth , as may not be dysclosed to euery man , but onely to trustye frendes , and suche as be of the same beleue or at leest mych lyke . They lytell thynke or consyder that all though it were neuer so trewe . yet after that maner , it shold neuer do them seruys . Ro. 10. For fayth ( sayth saynt Poule ) is taken with the harte vnto a mans iustyficacyon , but the confession therof with the mouth is made , vnto his helth . As mych to saye , that fayth in thy hart , shall neuer iustyfye the so , that euer it shall saue the , except thou be alwayes wyllynge , so to confesse it with thy mouth , that thou care not who know it . Our sauyoure hym selfe doth saye : ●at . 10 He that wyll denye me before men / I wyll denye hym before my father , which is in heuen . Agayne in another place : ● . 9. He that is ( he sayth ) ashamed of me and of my sayenges / I wyl be ashamed of hym , when I come in the glory of my father . 〈◊〉 . 14 Also : He that loueth his lyfe before me , is not my dyscyple . All this well consydered , thou mayest sone perceyue that he shal be forsaken of chryste , and is none of his flocke , whiche is not alwaye wyllynge and redy to confesse , and be ●knowen of him , not withstanding any maner of shame or fere .

Here.

Syr your exposycyon doth not wel me thynke agre with the text . For by these authoritees we are bound , that we shall not denye chryst , nor be ashamed of hym , and no farder . But yet a man maye for all that , kepe his fayth , or some parte of it , close and secrete to hym selfe , yf he se cause .

Ca.

There can be no such cause that can moue hym so to do , but other feare or shame . which by these authoritees be both prohybyt in this case & clene forbede to haue any place . And besyde that , it is none other thynge to confesse chryst / but to confesse his fayth and euery part therof . And contrary wyse , it is none other thynge , to confesse his fayth and euery part therof , but euen to confesse hym . Therfore it must nedes folow , that he which doth hyde his fayth or any part therof , doth vtterly subtract & clene withdrawe hym selfe , from the confessynge of chryst . wherin he is apertly condemned , of our sauyour hym selfe , by these wordes : Luc. 12. who so euer ( he saith ) wyll confesse me before men / the sonne of man shall also confesse hym before the aungels of god : But he that wyll denye me before men , he shall be denyed , before the aungels of god .

He.

Syr here is saluacyon promysed to hym that wyll be aknowen of chryst or his fayth . And perdicyon to hym that wyll denye it : but here is nothynge spoken of hym , that wyll do none of them bothe .

Ca.

why , there is no suche . For who so euer wyll not confesse christes fayth and euery part therof , doth vtterly deny both hym & it .

He.

Nay syr not so / for there is a mene bytwene confessyng and denyeng of a thyng , the which is , when a man houldeth his peace & doth none of them both .

Ca.

ye but that is neuer , as touchynge chryst & his fayth . For who so euer wyll not confesse hym , doth vtterly therin denye hym / although he holde his peace & saye nothynge . For doutles there is no suche mene betwene chryst and vs / as there is betwene vs & diuers other thynges . which we may , be nother with them nor yet agayne than yf we wyll . But chryst is vtterly none such : As hym selfe doth clerely testifye , where he sayth : He that is not with me , Mat. 1 is agayne me . He doth not say , He that is not with me , & he that is agayn me . As who say they were twayne : by the reason wherof there myght be another vnderstand bytwene hym that is with hym , & hym that is agayne hym . But he sayth , he that is not with me is agayn me , that is to say / he the selfe same that is not with me , is agayne me sygnyfyenge therby playnely , that there is no mene , betwene hym that is with hym , and hym that is agayne hym : that is to say / there is no dyfference bytwene hym , that is not with hym , and hym that is agayne hym , but bothe one . Therfore as he is agayne chryst , which is not with hym / so doth he denye chryst , which doth not confesse hym . And as he doth denye chryst , whiche doth not confesse hym : so doth he denye his fayth , whiche doth not confesse it & euery part of it ( for it is ( as I sayd ) none other to denye chryst then to denie his fayth / nor none other to deny his fayth , then to denye hym ) And as he that wyll not confesse chryste , is not with hym , & therfore agayne hym : so he that wyll not confesse his fayth and euery parte of it , is not with it , and therfore agayne it . And who so euer so doth , I shall not nede ( I suppose ) to tell the , that his fayth shall neuer saue hym . All though it were neuer so trewe . But then , what yf it be fals ? Therfore bycause I coude not reddely tell , whether thou be one of the sort or not . I dyd bede the show me thy faythe , yf thou dorste for feare or shame / knowenge very , well that the tone ( at leste ) of them two , is lyghtely alwaye the cause , for the moste parte , why that any of them all , doth so craftely cloke and hyde it .

He.

Syr I maruayle greately , what sholde moue you to put any suche doutes in me , when I mynystre no cause why .

Ca.

It is not vnprofytable to dout now & then .

He.

Syr it is yet lytell wysdome , where it nedeth not .

Ca.

Very well , go to then , tell me how thou doest byleue .

He.

In chryst , in whom els ?

Ca.

I aske the one thyng , and thou tellest me an other . I do not aske the in whom nor in what or wherin / but I aske the , how thou doest beleue . That is to saye / I wold haue the render thy fayth vnto me , from one article to an other perticulerly , and therby shall I perceyue anone whether it be trewe or not / for tell not me that thou beleuest , as the scrypture doth teache / nor after the iudgement or counsell of lerned men / nor yet in chryst nother . For theyr be few heretykes that wyll not make any of these answers alwaye . Make me therfore such an answer as is onely proper and doth apperteyne to a trewe chrysten man and to none other .

He.

Syr deuyse your selfe how I shall answere you , and ye shal fynd me reddy therto in this mater .

Ca.

I haue tolde the , perticulerly and dystynctely .

He.

with a good wyll : I beleue in god the rather , & in his onely begotten sonne Iesu chryst , whiche was borne of a virgyn , and suffered deth for our redempcyon , & rose agayne from deth to lyfe , and ascended to heuen , and so forth .

Ca.

So forth ? why then goest thou not forthe ?

He.

It were to tedious ye know to reherse them all distynctely .

Ca.

Not one whyt , thou shalt haue leysour ynough .

He.

Syr it wolde in maner yet make me wery , and besyde that , perchaunce they sholde not come all to my remembraunce . Therfore yf theyr be any artycle , wherin ye suspecte my faythe to fayle , it is a nere waye to tell me whyche they be , and I shall breuely make you an answere .

Ca.

with that am I very well pleased . And therfore among all other how doest thou byleue , as touchynge the blessed sacrament of the aulter ?

He.

I beleue it is the sacrament of chrystes very body and blode and therfore moste excellent and chyefe of all other .

Ca.

ye but I wold know , whether thou thynke , the very substaunce of the brede and wyne , to be torned in to the very blessed fleshe and blode of our sauyour chryst , so that he hym selfe be presently in the sacrament or no ?

He.

Syr god is the iudge , & knower of my thought , & no man els . And therfore I maruell , that ye wyll requyre of me , any suche thynge as apperteyneth properly vnto hym .

Ca.

Doth the knowlege of thy thought , so apperteyne vnto god , that thou sholdes showe no man , what thou thynkest ?

He.

Not without I lyst my selfe

Ca.

No not in some thynges .

He.

Naye in nothynge ?

Ca.

why , hast thou forgot ten thy selfe so sone ?

He.

wherin ?

Ca.

Art thou not bounde to show , who so euer wyll aske the , what thou thynkest in any article of the fayth ? O ye say trauth , I had forgotten that in dede .

Ca.

why therfore doest thou stycke in the mater with me , all this whyle ?

He.

It is no article of the fayth whiche ye speke of .

Ca.

Hah ? what is that ?

He.

Euen as I tell you .

Ca.

Thou spekest so strayngely , that I wote nere well what thou meanest . Tell me therfore thy mynde agayne I pray the.

He.

I saye it is no article of the fayth .

Ca.

what , not that the very blessed lyuely body of our sauyour chryst , is presently in the sacrament ? is that no artycle of the fayth .

He.

None that is necessary to be byleued vnder payne of dampnacyon .

Ca.

Aa countreman , I thoughte euen as mych , all this whyle . For full well I wyste , it wolde out at last , yf it were trewe that I haue harde , as I do now fynd it in dede . For doutles now I knowe , that thou haste taken this cursed false doctrine of Iohn Fryth , which hath in the begynnynge of his boke not onely the wycked sentence , but also the selfe same wordes , whiche thou hast here expressed . Therfore bycause that I haue longe and often hard , that thou art wondersly blynded , in especyall with hym among all other lyke , in so myche ( as I heare ) his boke is seldome out of thy bosum : I haue by the reason euen therof , ben greately desyrous ( as I tolde the at the fyrst ) to talke with the , to th entent I myghte se , whether thou hast or canst inuente and ymagyon for his defence or excuse , so mych as any colour of reason , that I can not manyfestly proue to be vtterly playne fals . wherfore let me knowe , what thou wylt say to the mater .

The .xxiii. chap. Here.

FOr so myche as it apertely doth now appere , that ye bere not so lytell grudge , agayne gentyll Fryth , but that ye stycke not thus to exclame hym such an excedynge heretyke . And also me an other to , by the reason I folowe the trauth as he dyd . How tartly therfore wolde ye haue torne , and ( as they say ) vnder the fote clene doune troden , his good name , & the good opinyon whiche many hath in hym yf god hadde not prouyded hym to leue behynde hym , such a boke ( for all your sayenge ) as doth not onely defende hym clerely for his owne parte / but also myche comfort and quiet all suche louers of the trauth as he was hym selfe ?

Ca.

In dede thou speakest properly . How be it I wyll agre well with the in this , that god prouyded hym to leue a boke behynde hym / but without fayle none suche as thou speakest of , nor yet to that purpose nother / but vtterly to declare his odyble falshed , and to stoppe the mouthes of all his fauorers .

He.

Syr to speake of hym as ye do & show no cause why , it were a straunge thyng . Therfore tell me , what faute ye fynde with hym .

Ca.

Doutles it passeth one dayes worke . But neuerthelesse , fyrste I marueyl , that thou canst not espye his excedyng presumpcion in this that euer he wolde desyre , loke after or hope , to be folowed beleued or harde , of the great multytude of chrysten people , & that in so great a mater vppon his owne onely bare worde & nothynge els .

He.

Syr I merueyl myche more , that euer ye wold ley it to his charge , when there is nothyng in his boke more playn then the contrary . For there ( yf it be well marked , full clerely doeth he sygnifye , that he desyreth in nothyng to be byleued , but onely wherin the authoryte of scrypture , or the myndes of olde holy doctours , or els naturall reason , doth well and surely make for hym , vnto any of the which he that wyll not inclyne cleue and consent , is vtterly no good christen man . And therfore in this poynte , ye reprehende hym without cause .

Ca.

Not one whyt . For yf all these authoritees which he bryngeth for hym , make vtterly nothynge with hym in dede . Thou shalt not then deny , but that there doth no maner of thing remayn , wherfore he shold be beleued / but onely ( as I sayde ) his owne very naked & bare word . Therfore when he deuydeth his boke in two partes / one wherin he wold proue it no article of our fayth which we are bound to byleue , that the very lyuely body of our sauyour chryst is presently in the sacrament . An other , wherin he wold also proue , that he is not therin in dede . Let vs omytte the great & manyfest folyshnesse of this diuision , vntyl we haue somwhat tryed how he proueth the fyrst part of it . which he calleth the foundacion of his mater & doth not a lytell boste it , to be of no small streyngth . Therfore what so euer thou hast found in his boke , to make ( as thou thynkest ) any more for his purpose than other / let me heare it / & thou shalt sone se what I wyll saye to it .

He.

Then wyll I tell you euen what he sayth at the fyrst .

Ca.

Go to then quyckly .

He.

Syr his very wordes doutles be euen these . Fyrst we must all aknowlege / he sayth / that it is none article of our fayth / which can saue vs / nor which we are bounde to byleue vnder the payne of eternall dampnacyon . For yf I sholde byleue that his very naturall body both fleshe and blod were naturally in the brede & wyne / that sholde not saue me / seyng many byleue that / and receyue it to theyr dampnacyon . For it is not his presens in the brede / that can saue me / but his presens in my harte thorough fayth in his blode / whiche hath washed out my synnes / and pacyfyed the fathers wrath towarde me . And agayne yf I do not byleue his bodyly presens in the brede and wyne / that shall not dampne me / but the absens out of my harte thorough vnbelefe .

Now syr what say you to this ?

Ca.

In very ded , I say this to it / that fyrst we muste all a knowlege ( as it doth playnely appere ) that he hath here brought for hym , none authoryte of scrypture , none of olde holy doctours , nor yet so myche as any one spark of reason or trauth other yf thou pounder & marke it well : for when he sayth we must all a knowledge that it is none article of our fayth , why doth he adde this clause vnto it , which we are bounde to byleue ? as who saye , there be articles of our fayth , & this is one of them , which we are not bounde to beleue .

He.

Nay not so , but vnder the payne ( he sayth ) of dampnacyon .

Ca.

O , as who saye , yet vnder some other payne . when euen after his owne doctrine there is in this case bytwen god & vs , none other payne in dede , but onely that : for he doth styffely holde , that there be no paynes of purgatory after this lyfe : & for all the paynes that here be , concernynge such thinges , he doth vtterli account & reken , to be but the very cruell tyrannye of men , and doth nothynge bynde vs in consciens . Therfore when there doth hang bytwen god & vs , no maner of payne vpon the defeccyon and faylynge of fayth in this article , but dampnacyon only say we , nor yet that nother sayth he ( as his owne apert wordes doth clerely testyfye ) Iustly to this it must nedes come / that , when he sayth it is none article of our fayth , whiche we are bounde to byleue vnder the payne of dampnacyon . It is no more nor none other to say but euen that it is none artycle of our fayth , which we are bounde to byleue vnder any maner of payne , bytwene god & vs . And what so euer is to vs vnder no payne / it is without fayle vnder no bound at all . For yf there be no payn vpon it / we may chose whether we wyl , or not byleue it : yf we may chose , playne it is we are not bound : yf we be not bound to bileue it / doutles then are we not bound to byleue the trauth of chryst : for surely the trauth of chryst is in it / or els it is in dede none article of our fayth . Therfore yf that be it which Fryth doth meane , that is to say , that it is none article of our fayth in dede . why then dyd he so pretely put vnto it this clause which we are bound to byleue ? as who say , yet it is one for all ye. And agayne why dyd he adde vnto that also this , vnder the payne of dampnacyon ? as who say , yet vnder som other payne . But let all that passe , and marke me this . Other he doth thynke it an article / or els he doth thynke it none : yf he thynk it none , how fals a teacher is he in this that he sayth , we are not bounde to byleue it , vnder the payne of dampnacion . when it must nedes folow therof , that it is no dampnable thynge , to not byleue the trauth of chryst whiche is hym selfe ? For yf it be not the trauth of chryst / thou knowest ( as I sayd ) it can be none article of his fayth . Agayne yf he thynke it no artycle : how fals a lyer is he then , in this that he sayth playnly , it is on●● as in the .xxvi. leaf of his boke , it doeth apere by his owne wordes , whiche be these .

Though it be / he sayth / an article of our fayth / it is none of our crede in the .xii. articles which are sufficient for our saluacyon .

He.

Marry syr this doeth open all the mater .

Ca.

How so ?

He.

He sayth it is an artycle of our fayth / but yet it is none of our crede .

Ca.

A so , & therfore we are not bound to byleue it : an holsom doctrine : it is no article of our crede nother , that the gospels be trewe / therfore we are not bounde to byleue it : it is none artycle of our crede nother , that there was any such Peter & Paule as we speke of , therfore we be not bounde to byleue it : it is none article of our crede nother , that any of theyr epystles be trewe / therfore we are not bound to byleue it : here is gay gere as they saye . Howbeit I can fynde one artycle of our fayth whiche is none of our crede in the .xii. articles and yet we are bound to byleue it , and that vnder payne of dampnacion .

He.

which is that ?

Ca.

without fayl that Fryth doth teach an excedyng folysh fals & a deuylyshe doctrine .

He.

Tushe not so syr for all this : for although these thynges , whiche ye speke of , be not directely expressed among the .xii. artycles of our crede / yet perchaunce they may be found as surely to folow of some of them , as though they were expressed in dede / therfore are we as mych bound to byleue them .

Ca.

yf that be so , there is no dout but that it is euen lykewise of this article , which he laboreth so fast to ouerthrowe . Therfore what a thyng is this , that he doth confesse it an article of our fayth / & yet doth say that we are not bound to byleue it ? wherof it muste nedes folow that we may without peryll leue the byleue of it / & come to heuen with a pece of a fayth , with a faith as who say radged rente and all to torne / wonders euyll fauourde in ymaginacion & a thousand fould wors to haue in possessyon . Also what a thynge is it , that he doth confesse it an article of our fayth / and yet labour so faste to proue it none ?

He.

Nay not so , for he laboreth no more but to proue , that we are not bounde to byleue it .

Ca.

Then besyde that folysh wyckednesse , & wycked folyshnesse . what a thyng is this ( to conclude withall ) that he doth confesse it an article / and yet as all his hole boke doth declare , his purpose doth none other , but onely to proue that there is no suche thynge : so that he wold haue an article of our faith to be fals . For when he doth holde ( as his hole purpose is to proue ) that the very blessed body of our sauyour chryst is not presently in the sacrament / and yet doth holde also that it is an article of our fayth , who can more clerely ouerthrowe hym , then he doth hym self . For the very pyth of the mater is euen this , that it is an article and yet it is false , that is to saye , an article and yet no article / the which cometh euen to this that it is the trauth of chryst , & not the trauth of chryst / that is as myche to say , as the trauth of chryst , is no trauth / and that is none other , but that chryst is no chryste . Therfore whyle this is ynough , to se what maner a thyng it is , which he doth here take vpon hym to proue . Let vs now trye what maner of probacyon he doth make therof .

The. xx.iiii . chap. Here.

THat syr me thynke ye myght better haue done before . For what the thynge is , it is not harde to perceyue by the probacyon therof . whose properte is but euen to showe ( yf it be trewly made ) what the very thynge is in dede .

Catho .

There is yet for all that no labour loste / for oft tymes , there maye be made a fals probacyon of a trewe thynge / the whiche although be no probacyon in dede . yet vnto some it maye seme to be one . And euen contraryewyse / a fals thyng may seme to be trewly proued / but yet in dede it can neuer be . The thynge therfore wel and perfytly knowen doth euer gyue a clere lyght , what the probacyon of it is . But the probacion is not of that effycacyte alway to show what the thynge is . Therfore bycause a man may be somtyme deceiued of the thyng , by the probacyon / and neuer of the probacyon , by the very thynge . I haue showde the partly , what the thynge is it selfe , wherby thou mayste somewhat coniecture what his probacyon therof wyll be . And to putte the clene out of dout what it is in dede when ( as thou dydest reherse ) he doth saye .

If I sholde byleue that his very naturall body bothe fleshe and blode / were naturally in the brede and wyne / that sholde not saue me / seynge many beleue that & receyue it to theyr damnacion .

Beside that he doth here cal it bred and wyne , as though it were so in dede , the which is false ( as here after it shall well apere ) And besyde his folyshe spekynge in this that he sayth , yf I sholde byleue that his very naturall body were naturally therin . As who saye bycause we do byleue that chrystes very lyuely body , is presently and verely in the sacrament , we byleue it to be therin naturally . when we do not byleue it to be so in heuen . And yet we beleue it to be verely there in dede for all that . But this man doth speke as though it were alwaye a generall rule , that where so euer any thynge is presently in dede , it were there also naturally . As who say , yf a bladder were bloen full of ayre / & conueyed by violence down to the botome of the water , it were there naturally . Or as who saye , when god toke helyas from the socyete , 〈◊〉 . Re. 2 and company of mortall men , and dyd lyfte hym vp into heuen , he passynge thorough the ayre , was there aboue naturally . Besyde ( I saye ) all this nothynge to the purpose , what is there , in it ellys , whiche doth proue it none artycle of our fayth , which we are bounde to byleue ?

He.

That many beleue it ( he sayth ) and receyue it to theyr dampnacyon .

Ca.

what meaneth he by that ? Are we not bounde to byleue it , bycause they bileue it ?

He.

Nay not therfore .

Ca.

what then ? bycause they receyue it ?

He.

No nother .

Ca.

Then is it bycause they byleue it & receyue it to ?

He.

He meneth not so nother .

Ca.

How then ?

He.

As Poule sayth , he that eateth and drynketh it vnworthely , doth eate and drynke his owne dampnacyon .

Ca.

A then he groundeth hymselfe herin vpon s . Poule .

He.

ye what els ?

Ca.

In dede it were els but his owne dreme , as I wene we shall fynde it neuertheles . Therfore yf we be not bounde to byleue it , nother bycause they byleue it / nor yet bycause they receyue it / nor bycause they byleue it and receyue it bothe , but bycause of that , that foloweth , that is to saye to theyr dampnacyon . Then , why is it to theyr dampnacyon ?

He.

For theyr vnworthynesse .

Ca.

Therfore when his reason is this , that we are not bounde to byleue it / bycause many receyue it to theyr dampnacyon / and they receiue it to theyr dampnacion bycause of theyr vnworthynesse . How clerely doth it folow that theyr vnworthynesse is the cause why , that we are not bound to byleue it ? And how mad a wyt hath he , which wyll thynke , that any mans vnworthynesse , can set vs , of or on as they saye , with the bonde of our byleue , in any poynt of our fayth ?

He.

Syr yet ye take hym wronge styll . For he doth not meane , that the byleuyng or vnworthy receyuynge of it to theyr damnacyon , is the cause why that we are not bound to byleue it . But he doth mene , that it doth suerly show , that we are not bound to byleue it .

Ca.

that they do byleue it , doeth rather showe , that we be bounde , to do so to , then the contrarye .

He.

what when they receyue it to theyr damnacyon .

Ca.

why do they receyue it to theyr dampnacion ? bycause they byleue it ?

He.

Nay that is not his mynde ye may sone perceyue . For then he wolde not haue sayd , we are not bounde to byleue it / but , we are bounde not to byleue it .

Ca.

Therfore what is this to the purpose of our bond : yf he coude haue proued , that suche as do not byleue it / were in no daynger therfore / it had ben then an other mater . But to say , seynge many byleue it , therfore we may laufully chose : a wyse reason .

He.

Syr it is not that nother whiche Fryth intendeth to show it by .

Ca.

why then dothe he speke it .

He.

That shal not skyl / but this is it : that they receyue it to theyr damnacyon .

Ca.

Doth that show that we be not bounde to byleue it .

He.

Clerely me thynke .

Ca.

I pray the loke yet better vppon it / & tell me in good ernest , whether it doth seme rather to show , that we be not bounde to byleue it , or els that we be not bounde to receyue it .

He.

Receyue it ? what we be bounde therto by the playne wordes of the gospell . Luc. 22.

Ca.

That I graunte to be trauth in dede . But whether of them both doth Frythes wordes seme rather to showe ? yf he hadde sayde , many beleue it , to theyr damnacyon : had not that somwhat semed to show it ?

He.

It had ben playne then .

Ca.

Therfore it is as playne now , that his wordes doth showe , that we be not bounde to receyue it , directely agayn the commaundement of chryst . For where he sayth that many receyue it to theyr dampnacyon . yf he had sayd ( as he dorste not in dede ) that many byleue it to theyr dampnacyon : it wolde yet that waye no more haue folowed , that we be not bound to byleue it . Then this doth folow now of the tother , that we be not bounde to receyue it . But whyle it is clene out of dout , that this dothe nothynge folowe , that we are not bounde to receyue it , For all that his sentence myghte sumwhat seme , to sounde as it were towarde suche a thynge . How myche lesse therfore doth this folow therof , that we are not bounde to byleue it , when there is not in it , so myche as one worde which can signyfye any thynge towarde it ? Therfore when these wordes ( which he gathereth out of saint Poule ) doth in dede show nothyng els but this , 1. Cor. ● that suche as receyue it vnworthyly do therin commytte a dampnable offence / and doeth not showe ( as I sayde ) that we be not bound to receyue it : wherof it myght seme to bere in the respecte of nothynge , as who saye some colour . yet wolde he haue vs take that therof whiche hath nother trauth , nor so mych as any lykelyhod of it other : for yf this , that many receyue it to theyr dampnacyon , do proue or sound any thyng lyke , that we be not bounde to byleue this article of the blessed sacrament . Doutles it doth an hunderde tymes more proue & sounde to this , that we are not bounde to receyue it . which is dyrectly agayn the scrypture . ●uc . 22 Therfore where he doth consequently say to maynteyne this purpose withall , these wordes . It is not his presence in the brede that can saue me / but his presens in my harte thorough fayth in his blood / which hath washed out my synn●s and pacyfyed the fathers wrath towarde me . what is there herin , but that it is none article of our fayth , which we are bounde to byleue ( as he sayth ) vnder the payne of dampnacyon , that the very body of our sauyour chryst is presently in heuen .

He.

what I maruayle that ye wyll so say / for Fryth hath no such wordes

Ca.

No it is ynough for hym so to teache , although it be in other wordes . For when he doth saye , that it is not his presence in the brede that can saue hym . what doth he els intende , but therby to proue , that we are not bounde to byleue it .

Here.

That I graunte .

Ca.

Harken well to me therfore , and the selfe same wordes that he speketh of chrystes bodyly presens in the sacrament . Thou shalt heare me speake them , of his bodyly presence in heuen , & then tell me thyselfe , whether it be as I say or not .

He.

Syr euen forth with , I pray you go to .

Ca.

It is not his presens in heuen that can saue me / but his presence in my harte thorough fayth &c ( now thou knowest his conclusyon is ) wherfore it is none artycle of our fayth whiche we are bounde to byleue : how sayest thou therfore to it now ?

He.

Syr it is a chaunce / the wysest man that is maye ouershot hymselfe somtyme .

Ca.

A playest me that countreman ? I tolde the somwhat of suche gloses before , how be it that shalt heare hym therfore a lytel better : it is not his presence ( he sayth ) in the brede that can saue me , but his presence in my harte thorough fayth . And therfore it is no artycle of my fayth which I am bounde to byleue . For ( as who say ) yf it were / it sholde saue me all though his presence were not in my harte thorough fayth / that is to say / although I beleued not in hym . ( And euen agayne lyke wyse ) it is not his presens in heuen that can saue me , but his presence in my hart thorough fayth . And therfore all though it be an artycle of my crede , it is yet none of my fayth , whiche I am bounde to byleue . For ( as who say ) if it were , that shuld saue me / although his presens were not in my harte thorough fayth / that is to say / all though I byleue not in hym . Here is a blessed doctryne and a gracyous , is it not trowest thou ?

He.

Syr and ye be so dysposed , ye maye make of euery mans tale , what ye lyste after this maner .

Ca.

I marueyll that thou wylt say so . For surely I do make none other , then therof must nedes folow : for thou seest thy selfe , that euen the same wordes whiche he speketh here of chrystes bodyly presence in the sacrament . He myghte euen as well haue spoken them of his bodyly presence in heuen . And euen as myche make they agaynste the fayth of the tone as the tother . For when he sayth / it is not his presens in the brede that can saue me . wherfore putteth he this to it , but his presence in my harte thorough fayth ? but as who saye , yf it were an article of his fayth which he were bound to byleue , it coude saue hym , without his presence in his harte thorough fayth . Euen as I myghte saye : it is not chrystes presence in heuen that can saue me , but his presence in my harte thorough fayth / & therfore it is none article which I am bounde to byleue . For yf it were , it coude saue me well ynough without his presence in my harte thorough fayth . Thou sayest , I make herof as I lyste . I wold fayn here of the , how any better myghte be made of it . Howbeit it were pitte to spyll any more tyme about it . And therfore where he goth forder and sayth of the contrary part . If I do not byleue his bodyly presence in the brede and wine / that shall not dampne me but the absence out of my harte thorough vnbyleue . Loke now thy self yf he myght not as well haue sayd : yf I do not byleue his bodyly presence in heuen , that shall not dampne me , but the absence out of my harte thorough vnbyleue . How sayst thou ? is it not well proued of hym , that chrystes bodyly presence in the sacrament , is none article of our fayth , whiche we are bounde to byleue . when he proueth vtterly by the same reason ( as he dyd before ) euen as mych , of his bodyly presence in heuen ? But where he sayth yf he do not byleue it , that shal not dampne hym . How wyll he proue that ? or why doeth he not so mych as pretende or seme to go about it ? but without fayle bycause his lye therin , is so great , that it wyl with no maner of thyng be couerd , but onely with the , whiche hydeth it from hym selfe and such other / that is to say / with his false fayth . whiche in dede doth so infatuate his wytte , and make hym so blynde , that yf thou marke it well , thou shalt finde , that he doth make all his dysputacyon , as though any one artycle by it selfe , were suffycyent to saue , who so euer byleue it , without the reste . For when he sayth yf he sholde byleue his bodyly presence in the sacrament , that sholde not saue hym : yf he hadde put this word ( only ) to it , and sayd / that onely shold not saue hym . we must nedes then haue graunte hym ye. For it were so the trauth in dede . But than had it ben dyrectly agayne his purpose . For it muste haue folowed therof , that he were bounde to byleue it . Therfore he lefte out this worde ( only ) which sholde sygnifye that the byleue of one artycle by it selfe , can not saue vs without the other , & so remayneth his sentence plane to the contrary , bycause it were ellys dyrectely , ( as I sayd ) Agayne his owne purpose : also when he wolde proue , that he is not bounde to beleue it , by this , that yf he dyd , it shold not saue hym : it must nedes folow of the contrary / that yf he were bound to byleue it & so dyd , then it sholde saue hym . wherof it appereth ( as I sayd that all his dysputacyon runeth styll vpon the suffycyence of one artycle alone / when the trauth is this , that all the articles , one lackynge , are not able to saue a man / but clene contrary , one faylynge is onely able to dampne hym . As sayth saynt Poule . 1. Cor. 5. A lytell leuen doeth torne the taste of all the hole globe of dowe . Therfore now , for a conclusyon of all , that thou hast yet recyted of his sayenge , when he doth graunte , that it is an article of our fayth , and then doth so saye , that we are not bounde to byleue it , that he laboreth all that he can to proue it : there thou mayest perceyue thy selfe that he lyeth bothe in worde and dede . And when he sayth we are not bounde to byleue it / and yet doth confesse it to be an artycle of our fayth . wherof it foloweth , that he wolde not haue vs bounde to byleue all the fayth of chryst . Therin thou seest he lyeth agayne . Also when he laboreth in all his boke to proue that the very blessed body of our sauyour chryst is not in the sacrament . And yet doth say , that it is , an article of our fayth , wherof it muste folow , that chryst hath one artycle of his faythe stacke false , Therin , I wyll not tell the , that he lyeth , bycause his falshed is to manyfest . For when he doth say , that it is an article of our fayth , and then goeth about , not onely to proue , that we are not bounde to byleue it / but also that there is no such thynge in dede nother , who wolde not so consyder therin his double deceyt , that he myght betyme , beware not only of hym , but also of any suche other lyke ? But now therfore , bycause we haue herin spent somwhat more tyme then neded in an errour so playne . And yet not halfe so mych as the folyshe falshed therof wolde requyre , yf it sholde be fully declared . yf he haue ought els , that semeth to the , any thynge more , to mayntene or make for his euyl purpose then this / brynge it forth and thou shalt heare what I wyll saye to it .

The .xxv. chap. Here.

MEthynke syr , he hath , for all this , in a certayne place , such a stronge reason for his purpose , as all the worlde can not auoyde .

Ca.

what so euer it be , thou mayest yet , by this that is past , of one of these to , be sure / that other it is not trewe in dede , or ellys it maketh nothynge for hym .

He.

By that reason , it can make nothynge for hym whether it be trewe or false .

Ca.

That can be no lye / for there is nothynge , that can treuly , make with falsed .

He.

yet ye shall heare it .

Ca.

Therto I graunte .

He.

In the .iii. leaf of his booke euen these be his wordes .

And fyrste that it is / he sayth / none artycle of our fayth necessary to be byleued vnder payne of dampnacyon / may thus be forther proued . The same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued the olde fathers before chrystes incarnacyon . But they were not bounde vnder payne of dampnacion to beleue this poynt . Therfore it shall folow that we are not bounde therto / vnder payne of damnacyon . The fyrst part of myn argument / is proued by saynt Austen ad Dardanum . And I dare boldly say / almost in an . L. places . For there is I thynke no proposicion whiche he doth more often inculcat then this / that the same fayth shal saue vs which saued our fathers . The seconde part is so manyfest that it nedeth no probacyon For how coude they byleue that thynge which was neuer sayde nor done . And without the word they coude haue no fayth / vpon the trouth of these two partes must the conclusyon nedes folow .

Now syr how saye ye to this gere ?

Ca.

Countreman as thou sayest , it is perchaunce after the iudgement of some , a great and a sore reason . But yet I promyse the one thynge it semeth to the no more trew / then thou shalt fynde it clene false . And for the more surer tryall therof . Thou muste fyrst consyder this / the logyke is a certayne .

He.

Nay then we haue it , and we come in with logyke .

Ca.

what softe mayest thou not abyde the hearynge of it .

He.

Marry yes , I canne heare it well ynough / but what .

Ca.

A then hold thy peace a whyle I pray the , thou knowest not what I wyll tell the , logyke ( I say ) is a certayne arte , whiche doth teache a compendyous way to dyscerne the veryte , from the falsyte . And that can not be done except bothe be knowen . Therfore among all other , there is for the purpose inuented a certayne argument , whiche is made and formed , of thre partes , of the whiche thre , the fyrst and the seconde , are called in scooles , two proposycyons , the more & the lesse . And when these two , in theyr conuenyent kynde be bothe trewe / then the thyrde part , whiche of them must nedes folowe , and is called the conclusyon , can neuer be false . And agayne , when any of these two proposycyons be false , the conclusyon whiche sholde folowe , can by them neuer be trewe . This argument also , when the fyrst part and the seconde is trew , wherfore theyr necessary conclusyon must be trewe to , it is called then a syllogismus . And when any of them both be false , for the which theyr intended conclusyon , can by them neuer be trew , it is then called a sophystycacyon / so that bytwene logyke & sophystrye , there is in this cace no dyfference , but vnder one maner & one forme , the tone holdeth the veryte , & the tother the falsyte . This faculte therfore , I dare well saye , there is no iust louer of trauth , but he wyll iudge it very necessary to be had / when it is but the tryall of the same : yet is it a thyng , whiche in especyall your scoole doth vtterly forbede and crye out vpon . But that wolde ye neuer do yf your teachyng were trewe . For who be they that teacheth a doctryne , and forbede theyr dyscyples the iudgement of suche as can best dyscerne what it is , but onely fals harlottes , whiche goth about to deceyue men ?

He.

Syr why speke you this ?

Catho .

Trewly for this cause , haue ye not brought the name of logyke & phylosophy in suche a slaunder of subtyle and false craftynes , among no small sorte of suche as knoweth it not , that they do now suspecte , ye & abhorre the iudgement of any man , so mych the more , as they thynke or heare tel that he is lerned therin ? But for your this doyng , how gret and excedyng is your shame in the syghte of them whiche do perceyue your dealynge ? And yet how lytell is all that , in respect of this , that ye may well be proued to vse the same your selfe , that is to saye / to vse very sophysticacyons , and playe the onely sophysters your selfes ? to the great illusyon and deceyt of the people , for all your craftye byddynge them so fast to beware of it in other men , lest by them perchaunce they myght lerne to espye and perceyue therin your crafty falshed , which ye wolde haue crepe styll in the darke , vnto the tyme it myghte put out & extyncte all the lyght ?

He.

Syr I praye you gyue me leue / we go about the tryall of Frythes mater , what is all this to the purpose ?

Ca.

why doest thou not perceyue it .

He.

No trewly / for he neuer vsed any suche thyng as ye speke of .

Ca.

No dyd ? shall I nede to reherse to the ( whiche doest know it so well ) how he doeth exclame and crye agayne sophysters and sophystrye / almoste in euery corner of his boke ?

He.

why what then ?

Ca.

In dede I shall tel the what then / bycause thou knowest it not thy selfe , inquyre of any man that can skyl of it / if he do not saye , that this , whiche thou haste now rehersed of Frythes wordes , is the selfe same scolasticall argument , whiche I haue here dyscrybed vnto the , and is dayly vsed in the scolys , take me for suche a one as I say to the that he is . Howbeit I do not mene , that it is the same argument , which is dayly vsed in scolys when it holdeth the veryte , but vtterly the same , when it holdeth the falsyte , onely with these two dyfferences , that in the scolys , it is put in latine , and here in englyshe : and agayn there it is but a fayned falshed , to teache men to beware of it : and here it is an ernest falshed to teache them to be dysceyued with it : and to proue thys that I saye to be trewe , fyrste I shall not nede to byd the , to bere wel his argument in mynde , which hast rehersed it vnto me thy selfe . Therfore yf thou marke it well , the hole pyth of it , doth rest vpon the sayenge of saynt Austen , which is this , that the same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued the olde fathers before chrystes incarnacyon . Now yf saynt Austen had not sayd the same fayth , but another fayth shall saue vs &c. it hadde ben vtterly nothynge for frythes purpose . Therfore thou mayst playnly se thy selfe , that all the weyghte of the mater doth lye in this word / the same / wherfore lette vs now trye forther , what maner of worde this is / whether it be apte to buylde a good argument vppon or not . And therfore tell me trewly what thyng thou art .

He.

what thynge am I / but a man ?

Ca.

Am I any other thynge then that ?

He.

No that is playne .

Ca.

Then am I the same that thou art and thou the same that I am . But what so euer the same that I am doth . I do / and what so euer the same that thou art doeth , thou doste . Therfore it must nedes folow that what so euer thou doste I do , & what so euer I do thou dost bycause thou art the same that I am / and I the same that thou arte .

He.

Nay syr that wyll not folowe . For although we be eche the same that other is in nature / we do yet dyfferre in person : for ye be one person and I an other : and not the same that you be / nor you the same that I am . Therfore your actes be not myne / nor myne yours .

Ca.

yet thou thy self , when thou were fyrst borne were the same in nature , and the same person then , that thou art now & the same now that thou were then .

He.

That I graunte .

Ca.

But thou were thenne , not one yerde longe . Therfore it foloweth no more thou art now .

He.

ye syr ? wyll ye make me byleue that ? when it is two thynges to be the same in nature and person / and to be the same in quantyte / therfore ye may be sure that I ment not so .

Ca.

yet that excepte , thou wylt graunte thy selfe to be now , the same that thou were then .

He.

ye that excepte .

Ca.

And then thou coudest nother speke nor go . wherof it foloweth no more thou canst now , whyle thou art now the same that thou were then .

He.

Syr after this maner ye myght reason also of myn age and my knowlege with all other powers and qualytees besyde , when ye maye be sure I do not so mene .

Ca.

Then tell me this , were not all englyshe people an . C. yeres past , bounde to the commune lawe of this lande , and we now lyuynge , also to the same ?

He.

That is no doute .

Ca.

Go to now , and take hede what I say : we be bound to the same law that they were , which lyued an . C. yeres past . But they that were lyuynge an . C. yeres past , were not bounde to the statutes and actes of the laste perlyament . Therfore it foloweth no more be we now : except thou wylt say , they be no part of the law / and then we be not bounde to them nother .

He.

Syr we be bounde to the same lawe that our elders were , & they to the same that we be . But this is vnderstande the same in generall , that is to saye , the lawe of englande , without any respecte of partes . For it was none other , nor no lesse , then the lawe of englande , whiche they were bounde to / nor it is no other , nor no more then the law of england nother , whiche we are bounde to . Therfore when it is no more nor lesse nor yet none other , it muste nedes be the same / but it is the same ( as I sayd ) in respecte of the hole generally / and not the same in respect of the partes specyally , by as many actes & statutes as hath ben syns for consyderacyons added on to it mo then was than . Therfore your argument is fals and can not holde .

The .xxvi. chap. Catho .

COuntreman thou spekek herin very well : & therfore marke what I shall say vnto the. when it is so , that this worde ( the same ( is of a sygnifycacyon so ambyguous and incertayne / that a thyng maye be sayd the same in nature , & not the same in the properte of a person / or the same in them bothe , and not the same in quantite / or the same in all thre , and not the same in powre , or the same in one qualite , & not the same in an other : or the same in generall and not the same in specyall : or the same in all these , and yet not the same in many moo besyde : when a thynge ( I saye ) maye be called the same , & yet not the same , in so many respectes . why dyd not Fryth with all his sophistery ( agayne that which he speketh so sore , and yet vsed nothynge more ) why dyd he not consyder all this in the worde , and put away the doutfull vnderstandyng therof / before he made ther vppon his argument ? Seynge it myghte chaunce to be ( as of hym it is ) taken otherwyse , then the author dyd intende ? other he knew or he knew not , that he sholde so do , or ellys to take it for no ground or pryncyple to dyspute vppon : yf he dyd not knowe it , that is to saye , that yf he dyd not knowe that a conclusyon can not be proued by any pryncyple whiche is incertayne . Doutles he was then to blynde a teacher to be byleued / specyally in so great a mater as this is . For all men knoweth it is agayne both nature & reason to come by suerte , by incertitude : agayne of the tother part , yf he dyd know it , and yet wolde , as he dyd , tumble forth his argument neuerthelesse : what other thyng coud moue hym so to do , but onely wylfull malyce . For be it in cace , that I perceyued a worde or a sentence the sence wherof , were doutfull & incerteyne ( for the which no trauth ther vppon were probable ) and yet before the ambiguyte therof were put awaye , wolde grounde myn argument vpon the same . what coud cause me so to do , but onely to make men thynke , I proue that I proue not / and so make them byleue , that thynge whiche is not . For the entent of euery ernest argument , is all waye to cause the conclusyon to be graunted , whether it be trew or fals . Therfore what motiue therof canst thou fynde , in who so euer so doth , but euen a malicyous intencyon to deceyue other ? wherfore , whether blynde ignorance , or els this wylfull malyce , were the cause why , the Fryth dyd bylde his argument vppon this flettynge foundacyon , I leue it partly for this tyme , to thyne owne iudgement . For of the tone , I am sure thou canste not excuse hym .

He.

yes he myghte chaunce ( as many men doth ) purposely put forth an argument taken of an incertayne pryncyple , to heare what wolde be sayd vnto it .

Ca.

Nay nay my frend , that is not it , that can excuse hym . For all though that be somtyme vsed in scolys , to the entent it myght therby be lerned , where the falsyte of suche argumentes doth reste . yet questyonles Fryth had here no suche purpose . For he dyd not put it forth , to se what wolde be sayd to the contrary or that it sholde be lerned , where the deceyt of it lay . But his intent was onely by the craftynesse therof , to draw men into his false and wycked opinyon . The whice he helde so vehemently to be trewe , that he layde therevpon no lesse wayger , then his owne selfe , both body and soule , the losse of the whiche , without fayle is no lesse lyke in bothe , then it is well knowne , to be sure in the tone . Howbeit that shall passe , to come to our purpose agayne , the whiche is to show , the great ignorant or wylfull fasshed of hym in his argument : for who , but he , wolde as who saye , so hedlynge at auenture , iudge s . Austeyn ( when he sayth , the same fayth shall saue vs which saued the olde fathers ) to mene the same fayth in respecte of euery poynt partycularly and dystynctly , & not the same in respecte of the hoole togyther confusely ? For these two consyderacions do mych dyffer in euery thynge . And that wonders playnly in the commune law as thou didest euen now declare thy selfe . For in the consyderacyon and respecte of the hole confusely togyther , it is euen the same now that it was an hunderd yeres paste , and was euen than the same that it is now , that is to saye , the law of england now , and none other then : the lawe of englande then & none other now / the whiche word dothe sygnyfaye all the hole thynge togyther , as it is at the tyme of the spekynge of it , without any dyfference or any respecte of partes . For when thou hearest it spoken it doeth put the no more in mynde of any one part , then of any other / but of the vnite of them all togyther , whiche the word doth only sygnyfye . But the consyderacyon of the same in partes dystynctely , doth farre dyffer from that . For in the respecte therof , it is not euen the same now , that it was an . C. yeres paste / nor the same then that it is now , by all th actes and statutes which hath ben added vnto it syns yet can it not folow , but that it is the same law in generall styll / for all the new partes which it had not before : also a tre beyng full of new leuys , twygges , braunches & bowes , is yet the same tre , that it was , yeres past before they spronge out of it / but how the same ? the same in respecte of the hole , but not the same in respecte of euery parte / for some partes be new , but so are not all . yet before the new partes were sprong out of it , it was none other nor yet no lesse then the same tre , that it is afterwarde / and afterwarde none other nor yet no more , then the same tre that it was before . Therfore as the tre , full of new partes , is euen the same tre that it was before / and yet not the same in euery poynt . And as the comune law of this land , is euen the same now that it was fourty or an . C. yeres past / and yet not the same in euery poynt . Euen so is the fayth of chryst now , the same that it was before his incarnacion / that is to say , the fayth of chryst then & the fayth of chryst now , all one and the same , in respecte of the hole but yet not the same in respecte of euery poynt , without any maner of dyfference . wherfore suppose thou in it but euen one dyfference , and tell me where is all Frythes argument become , when for any thynge that is in it elles , euen the fayth of this blessed sacrament myght well be the same , which he laboreth so sore to ouerthrow .

The .xxvii. chapi. Here.

AN argument syr ye knowe ryght well is not to be auoyded by supposycions or coniecturs but by probable and manyfest reasons . And therfore yf ye can proue any suche dyfference bytwene the olde fathers fayth before chrystes incarnacyon & ours now , wherof it must nedes folow , that saynt Austens wordes can not be so vnderstande , as you say Fryth doth take them . I wote then what I haue to do .

Ca.

without fayle , there be dyuers dyfferences , not onely to sure to be dowted in / but also to manyfest and open to be inquyred of . For had the oulde fathers before chrystes incarnacyon , beleued his blessed byrth passyon resurreccyon , and ascencyon to be done and past , as we do : and we to come , as they dyd . Euen so farre therin dyffer we eche from other , that it had els ben damnable , bothe of theyr parte , & ours to . Also ther was conteyned in theyr fayth dyuers sacramentes whiche we haue not in ours / and lykewyse in ours , which they had not in thers . and that the chyefe of eche parte . Agayne theyr fayth , beynge myche hyd and couerd with so many fygures , darke shaddowes , and mystycall prophesyes , as in maner the hole course of scrypture doth testyfye that it was . who therfore wolde not see it to be thenne , but obscure , grosse and confuse , in respecte of the pure dystyncte clerenesse , whiche ours toke , by the very comynge of our sauyour chryste hymselfe , and the predycacyon of his gospell ? And what was that same olde obscurite , but as who say , a coueryng of many poyntes togyther confusely , whiche the new bryght splendour of chryste dyd open and show dystynctely ? More ouer there is no dowt , but that there were then many good and faythfull folke , of the comune people of the iewes , besyde the ꝓphetes . Neuertheles , we may not thynke , that they had the fayth in suche maner as the prophetes had themself ( which were therwith immedyatly inspyred of god ) that is to say , so clerely so specyally and so dystynctely , but myche more obscurely , grosly , & confusely / by the reason wherof it is playn that theyr faith conteyned many thynges mo , then they were ware of them selfe , the which thynges were yet not so hyd and vnknowne to the prophetes the taught them . Forthermore it is not to be thought , that eche of the prophetes hadde it lyke dystynctly nother . when some of them be called more and some lesse : as the cause wherof doth well appere by theyr workes , of the whiche , some one is farre more large then dyuers of the rest togyther / god showed not dystynctely all to eche of them / but some to one , and some to an other . yet we may not say , that he , or any of the comune people , whiche had leest , had for all that , any lesse then all togyther confusely : for who so euer , at the leste waye , hath it not so doutles hath vtterly thereof nothynge at all : bycause the hole fayth ( as I showed the before ) is preuely hyd and conteyned in euery parte of it : finally , as the maner of hauynge the fayth , dyfferd bytwene the prophetes and the comon people , of the iewes then / so doth it not onely betwene theyr tyme and ours / but also betwene some one sort and an other of vs euen now . For there is no dout , but the plouman hath now the same fayth , which hath the doctour of diuynete , & the doctour the same that he hath , that is to saye , the fayth of chryst , but yet farre vnlyke . For where the plouman hath it in maner but grosly and confusely : the doctour hath it specyally and dystynctely . And therfore in the ploumans confuse fayth / doutles there be many mo specyall artycles & mysteryes conteyned , then he is ware of hymselfe , whiche be not vnknowne to the doctour : yet neuerthelesse , vnto the byleue , as well of them , as of the resydew , the plouman is not vnbownde , for all that he is not ware of them : nor yet the doctour lykewyse nother , for all that the same fayth shall saue hym , whiche saueth the plouman . Therfore when the fayth bytwene the fathers and vs , hath by the reason of tyme , taken one dyfference , and that such as they coude not haue ben saued , beleuynge in euery poynt as we do nor we beleuynge as they dyd . And when it hath also taken an other dyfference in thynges , no lesse then very sacramentes , & that the chyefe of both partes . And besyde all that when there is betwene them & vs , suche a dyfference in the maner of hauynge of it , that it may be sayde they had the same & not the same that we haue / and we the same and not the same that they had / bycause that , whiche they had more grosly , confusely , and obscurely , we haue it , more partyculerly dystynctely and manyfestely . Saynt austeyne ( thou mayst well knowe ) when he sayth , the same fayth shall saue vs which saued the fathers before the incarnacyon , neuer ment ( as Fryth doth falsely vnderstande hym ) the same fayth in euery condycyon dystynctly , but the same , in respect of the hole confusely , that is to saye , the fayth of chryst generally , without any dystynct consyderacyon of the partes . As a man doeth oft tymes speke or thynke of money , without any dystynct consyderacyon of this coyne or that , or how many dyuers coynes be conteyned vnder the generall name of money .

He.

Syr yet styll I do somewhat marueyll how ye know , that Fryth ( as ye saye ) doth vnderstand saynt Austeyn to mene the same fayth in euery condycyon dystynctly .

Ca.

And I do marueyl also , how thou coudest elles fynde which waye saynt Austens wordes myght so mych as seme , any thyng to sounde for his purpose : for yf there were no more dyfference , bytwene the fathers fayth and ours , but euen only so myche , as is in the dyuerse maner of hauynge therof / that is to saye , of our part , the partyculer and dystynct clerenesse of it which it toke thorow the very commynge of chryst . And of theyr part the grosse and confuse obscuryte of it , wherin it was , before that same lyght of the worlde came forth , and shewed his beames abrode . 〈◊〉 . 8. There is yet no dout , but this artycle of the blessed sacrament of the auter , may be one of them ( as it shall hereafter well appere that it was in dede ) as well as it is playne of the sacrament of baptyme and many other thynges mo besyde , which then as who saye , inuolued and togyther wrapped , were obumbrat and couerde with the shaddow of that clowdye season , accordynge to the wordes of the apostle , Cor. 10 sayenge our fathers were all vnder a clowde . wherfore yf we shulde be bounde to the byloue of no mo thynges , then were open and manyfest before chrystes most glorious incarnacyon , bycause the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them than / it must therof clerely folow , that other our sauyour chryst hymselfe brought with hym no more lyght of the fayth , that is to say , he reueled no mo secretes & mysteryes therof necessary for our saluacion , then were knowen before , or els yf he dyd , we are not bounde to byleue them . what wycked person wold byleue or thynke any of them bothe , besyde Fryth ? I must nedes except hym , bycause it foloweth of his owne doctrine . Therfore where the maner of scoles is this , that he which maketh an argument , must to confyrme the same , proue afterward , euery part of it particularly by them selfe / the whiche forme & maner he doth not here mysse sophistically to imitate , I wyll now to the seconde part of his argument , bycause I haue showed the suffycyently , what his probacyon is of the fyrst , except thou hast yet any thynge els to say herin to the contrary .

He.

Syr lytell or nothyng that I wyll declare tyll I heare what ye wyll saye to the reste .

The .xxviii. chap. Catho .

TRewly the rest , that is to say , the seconde part of his argument thou knowest is this , that the fathers before chrystes incarnacyon neuer beleued this point of the blessed sacrament . The which he sayth is so playne , that it nedeth no probacyon / & two causes why , he doth alledge , which be these , that it was neuer done , nor neuer sayd . Therfore quyckly te dyspatche the tone of them , yf he wyll haue it folowe , that the fathers before chrystes incarnacion neuer beleued it , bycause it was neuer done , in theyr tyme / by the same reason it must nedes folow , that they neuer byleued , the blessed byrth of chryst , his deth , his resurreccyon , nor his ascention : for those thynges were neuer done in theyr dayes nother .

He.

No syr , but yet they were done syns .

Ca.

what of that ? Fryth speketh onely of theyr tyme , & not syns . And that mayest thou know by this , when he sayth , ( it was neuer sayd nor done ) yf he had ment syns the fathers tyme , it had ben no whyt soundynge toward his purpose , & besyde that , to playne false to : for he wyll , & muste nedes graunte hym selfe / that it was and alwaye is at the leest , sayde syns / wherfore it is playne that he men in theyr tyme , as his owne wordes folowynge doth clerely show wher he sayth

without the word they coude haue no fayth .

Therfore this conclusyon which I haue now shewed the , muste by his reason ( as I sayde ) nedes folowe / that is to say , that the olde fathers beleued none of those sayd articles bycause they were neuer done in theyr tyme . And so consequencly , bycause they same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued them , and they after his doctryne beleued them not . we therfore are not bounde to byleue them nother . A fayre conclusyon . Now to the tother cause , yf it folow that the fathers neuer beleued this poynt , bycause they neuer harde of it ( as in dede they coude not , yf it were neuer sayde in theyr tyme . For as fayth cometh by hearynge / so hearynge cometh by sayenge ) it must also by the same reason folow , that they neuer beleued any of those thynges , which our sauyour chryst and all his dyscyples dyd preache and teache , more then was sayd before theyr comynge / so that in all the gospels and the epystels , that is to saye , in all the new testament , there is nothynge necessary for the helth of our soules , more then was sayd , harde , and vnderstande , before the incarnacyon of chryst in the fathers tyme : or ellys yf there be / seynge after this doctours mynde the fathers neuer beleued it , bycause it was neuer sayd in theyr tyme , and without the word ( he sayth ) they coude haue no fayth we nede not byleue it nother , bycause the same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued them . How doth this doctryne agre with the wordes of our sauyour chryst , where to his dyscyples he saith : Blessed are your ears bycause they do heare those thynges which many prophetes & iuste men greately desyred to heare , and yet heard them not : what were those thynges that made the eares of the apostles so happy and blessed in the hearyng of them , but the sayenges of chryst ? And why were those prophetes and iuste men desyrous to heare them , and hearde them not , but bycause they were neuer sayde in theyr tyme ? Therfore they were not bounde to byleue them / and consequently no more are we , bycause the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them . Take good hede , for this doctour wyll make the a good chrysten man anone , yf thou marke hym well . Therfore yf our sauyour spake any thynges , of more worthynesse and profyte then other / doutles those ꝓphetes & iust men , were most desyrous to heare them , and yet hearde them not . But the cause why was this , that they were neuer sayd , in theyr dayes . wherfore they were not bound to byleue the most worthy and profytable thynges , that euer chryst spake : and no more are we nother , bycause the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them : also the chyefe thynges that euer chryst taught , are the chyefe thinges that apperteyneth to the helth of mans soule . But those thynges were they that made the eares of his apostles blessed in theyr hearynge of them . And those thynges were they that many prophetes and iust men desyred to heare and hearde them not . bycause they were neuer sayde in theyr tyme . wherfore those prophetes and iust men were not bounde to beleue , the chyefe thynges that euer chryst taught , whiche are the chyefe thynges that apperteyneth to the helthe of mannes soule , and therfore no more be we nother , bycause the same fayth shall saue vs , which saued them . How mych tyme sholde I spende , yf I sholde not refrayne , tyll I hadde shewde the , all suche abhomynable inconueniences , as must nedes folow of his sophysticall argument ? Therfore bycause thou hast suffycyently heard , how wel he hath proued the partes therof : beholde now the hole togyther after the same forme and maner as he doth put it / and se how it wyll appere in an other artycle or two : The same fayth shall saue vs whiche saued the olde fathers before chrystes incarnacyon . But they were not bounde vnder payne of dampnacyon to byleue , that the sacrament of baptyme is a sacrament . Therfore it shall not folow that we are bound therto vnder the payne of dampnacyon . The fyrst part of myne argument is proued , by saynt austen ( after Frythes vnderstandyng ) ad Dardanum &c. The seconde part is so manyfest that it nedeth no probacyon . For how coude they beleue that thynge , which was neuer sayd nor done : and without the worde they coude haue no fayth . Uppon the trauth of these two partes , muste the conclusyon nedes folow : that which is this / that we are not bounde to byleue , that the sacrament of baptym is a sacrament . And euen by the same argument , that the blessed sacrament of the aulter , is not so myche as a sacrament nother : and other dyuerse lyke wyse / so , we are ( as euery man knoweth ) bounde all vnder the payne of dampnacyon , to receyue the sacrament of baptyme , but yet we be not bounde to byleue it / that is to saye , we are not bound to byleue the same thynge , whiche we are bounde to receyue . when the iust rule is this , that looke of what necessyte the thynge is to be had / of the same necessyte , it is to be byleued . But thou mayste se , what a fayth this mans argument teacheth vs , so new and straunge as I dare well saye , neuer trew chrysten man was aqueynted withall : yet let vs beholde , the patturne of it in an other cace , ones agayne / and so ( as they say ) blesse vs clene from it foreuer . The same fayth shall saue vs which saued the olde fathers before chrystes incarnacyon . But the Iewes dyspersed now in chrystendome ( as in Rome and in other places ) haue the same fayth , whiche the olde fathers had before chrystes incarnacyon . Therfore it shall folowe , that the same fayth shall saue vs , which these Iewes hath now . The fyrste part of myn argument , ( after Frythes vnderstandynge of hym ) is proued by saynt Austeyn ad Dardanum &c. The second part is so manyfest , that it nedeth no probacyon . For the credence of so many , no lyght persons , but of sobre wyttes and good lernyng bothe , as hath come from Rome & other places ( where the Iewes be now abydynge ) and hath made report here amonge vs , not onely of theyr fayth to be the same , whiche was the olde fathers but also of theyr excedynge dylygens , wherewith they cesse not to kepe and obserue the olde law and the ceremonyes therof / instructyng teachyng and bryngynge vp theyr chylderne in suche maner therin , that they be thought , more prompt reddy and perfyt in the olde testament , at xvi . or .xviii. yeres of age , then be the most of our studentes at thirtie . The credence I say of those so many graue & sad persons coming from where those iewes be , and reportyng these thinges of them , with mych & many other mo concernynge the same / doth show an argument ineuytable , that they haue now the same fayth whiche the olde fathers had / specyally when in theyr fast holdynge & kepynge therof , doth consyste all theyr great hope , and hole truste of pleasynge god to theyr saluacyon . wherfore vppon the trauth of these two partes , muste the conclusyon nedes folow / that which is euen this , that the same fayth which the Iewes hath now , shall saue vs : that is to saye , without baptyme , without the byleue that our sauyour chryste is come , or hath sufferd deth , or hath rysen agayne , or hath ascendeth to heuen , of the which they byleue not so myche as any one . Iudge now thy selfe , whether this be false logyke , or trewe sophystrye : ye rather the very fayth or abhomynable heresye : is it not a proper argument whiche can so trye oure dewtye in euery artycle , from one to an other , that without parell we maye leue our byleue of them all togyther ? for surely and without any dout , loke how mych it maketh agayne this artycle , whiche he wold ouerthrow yf he myght . Euen so myche it maketh not onely agayne many mo directely , but also agayne them all together consequently . If it make no thynge agayne all , without fayle no more doth it agayne this one . for any thynge agayne this / and so mych agayne all : nothnng agayne all / and as lytell agayne this . Therfore where he bosteth hym selfe to proue his purpose , other by the authoryte of scrypture , or by the authoryte of olde holy doctours , or els by naturall reason , so good plenty he hadde prouyded therof , that for to maynteyne withall , this part of his intent / trust me trewly , he hath no whyt more of any of them thre , than thou haste hytherto rehersed vnto me thy selfe . The which what it is , I thynke it now , farre from nede to declare any forder . All the reste of his babblynge besyde , be thou well assured , is none other , but of his owne dremynge swasyons and symylytudes . whose nature is neuer to proue any thynge , when they procede of reason & trauth / myche lesse therfore , when they sprynge out of blynd errour and falshed . wherfore to spende any tyme about them , it were but clene lost : seynge he hath in dede so lytel of these thynges , by the whiche he trusted moste to defende hym selfe / and yet also that found other false , or falshely taken and mysse vnderstande / and in no cace , can make for his purpose .

The .xix. chap. Here.

Syr me thynke ye do this intende to cesse and make an ende ?

Ca.

wherof ?

He.

Of this mater whiche ye haue ben about all this whyle ?

Ca.

why not ?

He.

Nay syr not so . For Fryth wold not call it the very foundacyon of all his matter , yf he had not somwhat ellys , to make for hym then all this that ye speake of , all though ye wolde not be aknowen of it .

Ca.

I praye the what is that .

He.

No lesse then an other sayenge of s . Austeyn , which maketh as well for hym , as any thyng that ye harde yet .

Ca.

I thynke the same and all one .

He.

Nay syr I mene that it maketh for hym very well .

Ca.

who wolde byleue that knowynge as thou hast harde before ?

He.

That is no mater / saynt Austeyns wordes he sayth be these . As many as in that manna , dyd vnderstonde chryst , dyd eate the same spiritual meate that we do . But as many as sought only to fyll and satysfye theyr hunger with that manna , dyd eate and are ded . And lyke wyse the same drynke / for the stone was chryst .

Ca.

what I pray the wyll Fryth make of this .

He.

Marry syr , Here you may gather / he fayth / or ●aynt austeyn / that the manna was vnto them / as the brede is to vs . And lyke wyse that the water was to them as the wyne is to vs . whiche anone shall appere more playnly .

Ca.

How so ?

He.

He doeth alledge that saynte Austeyn sayth forder these wordes .

Moyses also dyd eate manna / Aron and Phinees dyd eate of it / and many other there , dyde eate of it , and are not ded : why so ? Bycause they vnderstode the wysyble meate spyritually . They were spirytually an hungered / spyrytually they tasted , that they myght be spyrytually satysfyed . All they dyd eate the same spyrytuall meat , and all dyd drynke the same spyrytuall drynke vtterly the same mete spyrytually , but another corporally . Bycause they dyd eate manna / and we an other thynge / but they the same spyrituall meat that we do . And all they dranke the same spyrytuall drynke . They dranke one thynge , and we an other , but that was in respecte of the visyble thynge , the whiche for all that , dyd sygnifye all one and the same , in the spirytuall strength . How dranke they the same drynke ? of the spyrituall stone folowynge them , sayth the apostle . For the stone was chryste .

Now syr al this doth fryth alledge of saynt Austeyn . what saye you to it .

Ca.

This same I saye to it . All this same dyffyculte , of this same poynte , after this same maner , is well put this same waye , clere out of dout . This same errour , of this same felow , made hym of this same blyndnesse , that he was of this same iudgement , that this same word the same / coude none otherwyse be vnderstande , but euen the same way , that he thought the same , sholde drawe men , from the same fayth , whiche all trewe chrysten people doth holde / and brynge them into the same heresye , whiche the same Fryth hym selfe doth teache . And And all this same ( I saye ) dyd he , by the reason of this same worde / the same : For as one in a maze , is he not now in the same pathe . where he began ? And therfore euen iust , in the same cace that he was than ? is there any other cause , why he doth alledge these wordes of saynt Austeyn , but that he sayth they dyd eat and drinke the same spirituall meat and drynke that we do ? For what yf he had put in this worde / an other in the place of this word / the same ? or els had left them clene out bothe ▪

He.

Syr that had ben an other mater : the text had then , ben nothynge for Frithes purpose , and therfore he wolde not alledged it / yf it had ben so .

Ca.

Thou sayest very trauth and therfore all that semeth any thynge herein to make for hym , thou mayst well perceyue , doth onely rest ( as I saye ) in this same worde / the same . And haste thou not haerd ynough , what a proper principle it is , beynge vndefyned , to proue or conclude any thinge by ? Neuerthelesse I wold yet wete of Fryth , whether saynt Austeyne dyd here mene , the same in dede , or the same in effecte , whiche hath betwene them no small difference , as thou shalt hereafter more clerely perceyue thy selfe . And therfore by cause he doth now here agayne , leue styll the menynge of this same worde / the same / so dowtfull and in certeyn as he dyd before ( the hole pythe of his purpose consystynge therin ) Clere it is that nothynge therof can folowe , nor certeynly be proued by it : as thou thy selfe hast suffycyently seen & haerde all redy . Besyde this / a questyon he myght al so be asked , of this worde spirituall whether saynt Austeyn ment it to be referred / onely to the meat whiche he doth so call / or also to the intent of them which dyd eat it : or more ouer to showe sume dyfference , betwene our eatynge and theyrs / or elles to show wherin , theyr eatyng agreed with ours . All this ( I saye ) he myght well be asked / bycause it ought of necessyte to be dyscussed , before any conclusyon theruppon were attempted : howbeit it is no mater with Fryth , so that he maye alwaye fyrst conclude , what so euer he doth intende / & afterwarde clene slyppe ouer the certitude of his princyple at latter ende . As though , where in dede , lyeth no lesse than all : there were vtterly no mater at all . Therfore whyle there be fewe , of whom this falshed can be perceyued : Small wonder it is , though many be quickly therwith deceiued He asketh nothyng more , of all his dilygent readers / then to beware of all those same sophisters / whyche wyll make them perceyue hym , to be one of those warrears / That are of all other , the chyefe spirituall murderars . Beware of sophistrye , beware cryeth he : yet one that vseth it more , dydest thou neuer set . And therfore of hym , what a sophyster fynde we . But one of the worste , that is possyble to be : for immedyatly after those wordes of saynt Austen he bryngeth in the wordes of saynt Beda , which in latyn are euen these . Uidete autem fide manente signa va●iata . This torned into englyshe : is , thou knowest , none other to say . But beholde the signes are chaunged , the fayth abydynge .

The which Fryth doth englyshe after this maner , sayenge . Beholde that the signes are altered : and yet the fayth abydeth one . So that where saynt Beda sayth no more , but the fayth abydeth : cometh he & addeth vnto it , this same worde , one / sayeynge the fayth abydeth one : to the intent he myght therby make it sounde , that saynt Bede had ment , the fayth abydynge so , that it is all one and the same in euery respect , without any dyfference , as it was before the incarnacyon . But how false that is , as Fryth doth take it / thou hast harde therof ynough at large all redy . Therfore what a raynardes point of him is this , so craftely ( as who say ) to drope in suche a worde , as myght soone cause the holy mans mynde to be otherwyse taken , then euer he dyd mene ? dyfferth it nothynge to say , it abydeth , and to saye it abydeth one ? A man of .iiii. score yeres , so longe abydeth but yet so longe he abideth not one , for he is one thynge before ten or xii . yeres of age , the which he is not after .xxiiii. and an other at .lxxx. which he was not at .xxx. for fyrste a yonge tender chyld increasynge , and after a lusty man at his full strength : but at last , a feble impotent person almost wytherd awaye / and therfore in these caces he abideth not one but rather another & another , & so furth in many other lyke . This same worde , one , Fryth doeth not here put it to sygnyfie , as doth , one which is the fyrste begynnynge of number / but he doth put it to signyfye , none other then doth this same worde / the same / And this same worde / the same / semeth all waye ( as I tolde the before that he both and wolde haue it taken ) to signyfye the same , without any maner of dyfference . As in very dede so doth it , in that respect onely , wherof it is ment . But that myssed and wrong taken ( as no maruel why that very oft tymes it is so in dede ) then doth it mych deceyue and nothynge els . Therfore where he doth put in this same worde , one , doutles he myght as well haue put in , this same word the same : But that he wold not do , lest by the reason therof , it shold be the soner spyed , that euen onely therin , doeth reste all his hole presumption , of brynging his purpose to passe , bycause he is alway so besye therwith , that euery man may soone see , that he nother doth , nor yet can , clayme any thynge for hym of saynt Austeyn , but onely the word And therfore in the stede therof , to colour the mater , as with some dyuersyte , he wolde stele in , this word one / to make another sound in mens cares , but yet none other signifycacyon in theyr myndes : for trust me trewly , he hath no maner of thyng , of faynt Austeyn , or any other ( whiche is none / but onely saynt Beda in the wordes before rehersed ) that can so mych as seme , to make any beke towarde this part of his purpose , but onely this same word the same / catche it where he can : And that is the very cause why , that he cleuyth euen so faste and ernestlye vnto it , where so euer he can fynde it . But where he can not , yet yf he may , spye any corner of a sentence where it may but scant seme , to be sufferd yf it were put to it . In with it he goth at auenture , trustyng therby , to wrynge all the rest , to his owne fonde folysshe and euyll purpose . Therfore all though thou hast seen and hard ynough , to knowe that this I do not feyne . yet that it myghte more largely apere , lette me heare sumwhat of his owne mynde , what he sayth to these foresayd authorytees hym selfe .

The .xxx. chap. Hereticus

Syr that shall ye do / for consequently in that same .v. leefe these be his wordes .

〈◊〉 these places / he sayth / you may playnly perceyue / not onely that it is none article necessary to be beleued vnder payne of damnacion / seynge the olde fathers neuer beleued it / and yet dyd eat cryst in fayth / both before they had the manna / & more expressely thorough the manna . And with no lesse fruyte after the manna was ceased . And albeit the manna was to them as the sacrament is to vs / and they eate euen the same spirituall meate that we do / yet were they neuer so madde / a● to byleue / that the manna was chaunged into cri●tes owne naturall body : but vnderstode it spiritually / that as the outwarde man dyd eate the materiall manna which conforted the body : so dyd the inwarde man thorongh fayth eate the body of crist / beleuynge that as the manna came downe from heuen and conforted theyr bodies : so sholde theyr sauiour crist / which was promised them of god the father / come downe from heuen and strengthe theyr soules in euerlastynge lyfe / redemynge them from theyr synne by his deth and resurreccion . And likwyse do we eat crist in faith bothe before we come to the sacrament / and more expressely thorough the sacrament . And with no lesse fruyte after we haue receyued the sacrament and nede no more to make it his naturall body then the manna was / but myght mych better vnderstande it spiritually / that as the outward man doth eate the naturall brede whiche comforteth the body / so doth the inward man thorough fayth eat the body of christ / beleuyng that as the brede is broken / so was cristes body broken on the crosse for our synnes / which comforteth our soules vnto lyfe euerlastynge . And as that fayth dyd saue them / without beleuynge that the manna wal altered into his body : euyn so doth the fayth saue vs . All though we beleue not / that the substaunce of brede is torned into his naturall body . For the same fayth shall saue vs which saued them . And we are bounde to byleue no more vnder payne of damnacion / then they were bounde to byleue .

Now syr this is parte of his mynd .

Ca.

Thow sayest euen trawth . And therfore yf thow marke it wel ( sum what after his owne wordys ) of these places thow mayest playnely perceyue , not onely by the presence of this worde / not onely / but also by the absence of this worde / but also / that he at the fyrste , intended to shewe vs two thinges . The tone of the whyche , notede with this word not onely / he hath here ( as thou seest ) declared all redy . But the tother dependynge theruppon / and ought to be noted with this word / but also He doth vtterly passe ouer & clene let it go . For he ronneth so wonders faste , and can not tell hother / that he forgetteth tone ende of his tale whyle he telleth vs the tother : or elles he doeth purposely resarue , & kepe it in store / tyll he speake with vs hym self , to show that and more

He.

Tushe syr ye do but mock hym now .

Ca.

why cuntreyman , what woldest thou haue me do ? for to pytte hym , thou knowest well , it is to late : To prayse hym there is vtterly no cause . To holde my peace in this mater , were to farre agayne conscyence . And what remayneth but alwaye so to speake as he doth mynister occasyon ? Therfore wher he sayth , that the olde fathers were neuer so madde , as to byleue that the manna was chaunged into cristes owne naturall body / for what purpose doth he tell vs that , when euery man knoweth it as well as he ( All though no good man wolde expresse it in such termes , consyderyng what persons they were ) for that they dyd not so beleue , there is no man dowteth therin , when it was neuer so sayd vnto them nor commaunded that they shold so do : And a very good cause why . when there was then , no such thynge in dede : for the blessed body of our sauyour chryste in those dayes was not . As Fryth I suppose wyll not denye / but that now in very dede it is . And also sayde of his owne moste holy mouth , to be in the sacrament to / wherfore herein , there is no more to saye / but ( as it apereth playne ) that all those which beleue , that the substaunce of the brede , by the vertue of the holy consecracyon , is torned into the very body of cryst . Fryth doth note and acounts to be madde in so doynge . That is to wyte . All Englyshmen / welshmen / e●yshmen Frenshmen , scotys , daines , ●●uch men , spayniardes , portyngals , Italians , with all other trewe crysten nacions . For doutles al those doth so byleue .

He.

Nay syr not all : for all , can not be sayd , of englyshmen onely : nor yet of dyuers other partycular nacyons besyde : for some among them , byleuethe other wyse .

Ca.

And well spoken : as who say , there is no horse , that maye be sayd all whyte , bycause he is not without sum black / vnder the tayle .

He.

Syr in good fayth that is but a scornefull example .

Ca.

yet it is to this purpose sumwhat agreable , & mete ynough , for thyne obieccyon . Howbeit sumwhat better to content the withall , it is sayd amysse , that such & such feldes be full of corne , by cause they are not eche of them without some and to mych 〈◊〉 among it ? what yf there be such heretykes sume & to many , as Fryth was , among englyshmen , & other trewe crysten nacyons besyde ? doth that let the trauth of this / that all those nations beleue the very substaunce of the brede ( thorough the holy consecracyon ) to be torned into the very blessed body of cryste ? All those multytudes ( thou seest ) he doth recken therin to be madde . He doth not except all , or any , trew crysten prynces . About whom there lacketh not men , in wyt grauite & lernynge , of the best sort that maye be had . which seme not of all men , to be lyghtly deceyued . wher of in this mater specyally , they are vtterly moost lothe : doeth the sadnesse therfore of Fryth , show vs madnes in all crysten prynces / in all theyr prudent and wyse counsellars / and in all theyr multitudes of peoples innumerable vnder them , or ellys doth the sadnes of all those , showe vs the madnesse of hym ? I requyre no answere of this , but consyder it well with thy selfe . Therfore what is there more in all his wordes , whiche thou hast now rehersed , but onely his owne swasyons : and ( as I tolde the before ) his dull daunsynge styll , about this same word / the same / wherwith thou seest / he wolde conclude , what so euer he bableth before ? Neuerthelesse forth he goeth shewynge vs , after his fantasye , how the olde fathers dyd beleue , sayenge at the last .

There is no poynt in our crede / but they byleued it as we do / and those articles onely are necessary vnto saluacyon .

wherof it muste nedes folowe , that without parell of damnacyon ( we maye deny all sacramentes / for in whiche of those artycles are they ) we maye denye that our sauyoure wesshed the fete of his dyscyples . ( And then make we the gospel not trew ) we may also deny that it is damnable to peruert the seyenges of seint Poule , and other scriptures ( all thowgh seynt Peter sayth the contrarie ) And to be short , 2. Pe●… we maye denie all the hole scripture , thos .xii. articles of our crede excepted , whiche he saith , are only necessari vnto saluation : for what so euer is not necessari to saluacyon , may be on beleuyd without any daynger of damnacyon . This doeth he somewhat more playnely declare , forth with hymself , sayeng these wordes .

But the other poyntes conteyned in scriptur allthowgh they be vndowted verites . yet may I be sauyd without them .

what is thys same , saued withoute them , but saued without the beleue of them . That is to say , all thowghe they be trewe . yet I nede not beleue them . Therfor when he noteth , all cristen prynces , & al cristen people to be mad , for theyr beleue , which they haue in the blessed sacrament . How mych may we note hym , more then mad , that wyll beleue and so saye , that he maye be saued , without the beleue of all or any verytees contayned in scripture besyde those same .xii. expressed in the crede ?

He.

Syr perchaunce in those same .xii. are conteyned all the rest .

Ca.

Rest thou countreman there vpon / and I aske no more . For then say I , as it is in dede / that this same veryte whiche he denieth , is one of them . and the olde fathers beleued it , by the reason it was contayned in theyr fayth confusely , as many other were to be reueled and brought to lyght dystinctely , by the very comynge of our sauyour cryste hym selfe . But Frith was ware of this wel inough And therfore to be sure , that men shulde not take hym so to mene , as thou supposest ( for then were his mouth soone stopped ) he doth apertely expresse the contrary ( as I tolde the ) in these wordes .

But the other poyntes / he sayth / conteyned in scripture all though they be vndouted veritees / yet may I be saued without them .

I haue not hard of such a doctour that wyll not denye , but all the partes of scrypture which be thousandes , are verytees . And yet wyll houlde that we are not bounde to the beleue of any mo then .xii. I coude neuer haere of any verite of the scripture ( as there be in it none other ) but who so euer wolde not beleue it , he was vtterly therin an heretyke . But this man is , and so teacheth other to be , at liberti with them all .xii. except .

He.

It may so be , well ynough in certayne cases .

Ca.

why ? what cases I praye the.

He.

He doth forth with declare .ii. or iii. hym selfe .

Ca.

whiche are they ? let me heare them .

He.

They be euen these .

As be it in case / he sayth / that I neuer harde of the● .

There is one .

Or when I heare of them / I can not vnderstand them / nor comprehende them .

There is another .

We that I haere them and vnderstande them / and yet by the reason of an other text myscōstrew them / as the bohumes do the wordes of cryst in the .vi. chapter of Achum .

There is the thyrde .

Ca.

A , be these the cases / wherin men be not bound to byleue any verytees of scrypture mo then those .xii. expressed in the crede ?

He.

So sayth he .

Ca.

Then there is no more to say , but yf thou marke it well / in his fyrst case and the seconde , he doth put , whether he heare them , or not heare them . And in the seconde case , and the thyrde , whether he vnderstande them , or not vnderstande them : So that he these cases doth not put , but in euery case to auoyde , & clene exclude the nede of all the verytees of scripture saue onely .xii. For when he sayth he maye be saued without them , where he heare them or heare them not , whether he vnderstande them , or vnderstande them not . And therfore , whether he beleue them , or beleue them not . what nede maketh he of them , but meneth away with it in euery condycion ? For yf he may be saued without them ( as he sayth he may ) then it is clere , that he hath no nede of them to that purpose . yf he haue no nede of them to the purpose Doutles he hath no nede to beleue them ( for the beleue of thynges , can neuer be of more necessyte then the thynges be of them selfe ) therfore yf he nede not byleue them : in very dede , he hath lesse nede to vnderstande them ( for more necessary is beleue , then is vnderstandyng in thinges of our fayth ) and therfore yf he nede not beleue them , nor vnderstande them / playne it is , that he nedeth not so mych as heare them ( for what sholde he heare that he nedeth not byleue ) yf he n●…th not so mych as heare them , he hath vtterly no nede of them at all : yf he haue of them no nede at all / then be they ( as he wolde make them in dede ) no partes of the fayth : excepte he wyll say ( as he doth so mich as it cometh to ) that all the moste part of the fayth nede not be hearde / and consequentely , nor beleued nother . Thus are we clerely dyscharged of all the veritees of scrypture saue .xii. in euery condycyon / whyle we haue no maner of nede of any of them / wherof spryngeth an other prety question why they were wryten ? But how so euer this deuelyshe doctrine behaueth it selfe . what other thynge is the fayth of cryst , but all the verytees of scrypture / saye he what he wyll ? And contrary wyse , what other thynge are all the verytees of scripture , but the fayth of chryst ? Therfore when all the verytees of scrypture , are contayned in the fayth of cryst / as it is one of them so to byleue . And the fayth of cryste ( as I showed that before ) can not be trewly had , but all hole togyther . It must nedes folow , that who so euer hath the fayth of cryst , hath also no lesse then all the veritees of scrypture . Fals therfore is the doctrine of fryth that sayth , we maye he saued without them all , saue .xii. when the fayth can not be trewly had , without them all . Moreouer how sayest thou to this ? is it not a necessary veryte vnto saluacyon , to byleue that the commaundementes of god are good & ought to be kepte ?

He.

Syr what question is that / there is no man doth dout therin .

Ca.

And is there any parell in it , yf a man do not so beleue it ?

He.

In very dede no lesse then damnable .

Ca.

Take hede ꝑchaunce thou wotest nere what thou sayst .

He.

why what ?

Ca.

Vtterly that fryth is a false lyare . when he sayth those artycls of our crede , are onely necessary vnto saluacyon : for whiche is it of those .xii. to beleue that the commaundementes of god be good , and ought to be obserued & kepte ? or that there is any parell in it , yf we do not so beleue ? Those .xii. only be necessary sayth he . This veryte thou seest is none of them ( although , as all other , it may be reduced vnto them / the whiche he wyll none of in any cace , lest that , which he laborth to ouerthrow , shuld so by the means be brought in lyke wyse ) after hys mynde therfore without this , we may be saued . That is to wyt , without the beleue , that the commaundementes of god , be good or ought to be obserued and kept . who wyll not see , that this were ynough , to declare what a teacher he is ? or who hath so dull a wyt , that he can not perceyue , what his purpose is / and it were but by this , that he can fynde no waye to come to it , but onely by such deuelyshe pathes as this is ? Beholde how fayne he wolde proue it no nede , so to beleue in the blessed sacrament of th autare , as doth all trewe crysten people . In very dede so fayne , that , to brynge it to passe withall / he stycketh not here ( as thou seest thy selfe ) to leue vs clene without the nede of any and all the verytees of holy scrypture , mo then bare .xii : for in those .xii. verytees of our crede , he thought surely , that this verite of the blessed sacrament coude not be founde And therfore he doth say , that they onely are necessary vnto saluacion , to th intent he myght vtterly therby exclude the nede of this : the which he wolde so clene put awaye , that euen for that cause , he excludeth no lesse , then all the rest , sayenge .

The other poyntes contayned in scripture / all though they be vndouted veritees / yet may I be saued without them .

And this he declareth in euery condycyon / that is to saye , whether he beleue them or not / wher he vnderstand them or not . And whether he mysconstrue them or not .

All those I say / sayth he / maye be done without any ieopardye of saluacyon .

The .xxxi. chap. Hereticus .

YE but syr ye muste take his conclusyon withall .

Ca.

what is that

He.

Marry this .

Therfore we byleue / he fayth / these articles of our crede / in the other is no parell / so that we haue a probable reason to dyssent from them .

Ca.

Doutles a conclusyon euen lyke hym selfe . How be it I muse not so mych thereat , nor yet at hym nother , as I do euen at the.

He.

At me why so ?

Ca.

without fayle bycause thou doest no more wonder at his blynde madnesse , or madde blyndnesse chose the whether . How be it I do partely consyder the cause , for surely yf thou thy selfe were not by hym , sumwhat cumbe●d with the same cloude of darkenesse , wherin he was thus inuolued and wrapped hym selfe , thou sholdest easely . beside his wyly wickednesse , perceyue hym tombled in to the greatest folyshnesse , that euer thou sawest any man : For when he saith , in the other is no pacell , so that we haue a probable reason to dyssent from them . O folysh fryth , what yf we haue none , how then ? for how is it possyble to haue any probable reason , to dyssent from any verytees , most specyally and aboue all , from any verytees of holy scrypture ? for what reason is there probable in dede , but onely that , which is trew in dede ? and can any one trauth be agayne an other ? Therfore yf thou marke this mater well / thou shalt fynde , that by these wordes , he setteth vs euen as myth at lybertye , with our fayth in all these .xii. verytees of our crede to , as he doth in all the other : For in them is no parell nother , so that we haue a probable reason to dyssent from them .

He.

why syr , we maye not dyssent from them in any wyse .

Ca.

what not with a probable reason ? what thynge is there , that a probable reason , doth not bynd me to do ? A probable reason is euer more trewe : and shall not trauth lede me to and fro in euery condycyon ?

He.

ye but there can be no suche probable reason , to lede vs from those veritees of our crede .

Ca.

whi not from them , as well as from the other ? be they more trewer , than any of the other ? Howbeit thou spekest this of thyne owne hed . Frith saith not so / he hath no suche thynge / I must folowe his wordes : he sayth we maye dyssent from all the verytees of scrypture saue .xii. so that we haue a probable reason therto . And I saye the same of those .xii. also / yf we haue a probable reason therto . what ought I to refrayne , whiche a probable reason wyll lede me to ? Am I not alway bounde vnto trauth ? what other thynge is a probable reason ? Therfore in these verytees of our crede , is no parell so that we haue a probable reason , to dyssent from them . Thus taketh he from vs , the nede of all the veritees of scrypture saue .xii. which he doth except in wordes / but vtterly not in dede .

He.

yes syr for ellys he wolde not saye

We beleue these articles of ouer crede , in the other is no parell &c.

And also a lytell before .

For them am I bound to beleue . and am dampned without excuse . if I beleue them not . but in the other poyntes conteyned in scripture . &c.

Ca.

what of all this ? thou thynkest by the reason of these wordes , that he goth abouth to make vs byleue , that we be bounde to the verytees of our crede .

He.

what els ? for what purpose shosde he speke it / but for that ? or to show vs , how he doth beleue them hym selfe ?

Ca.

I thought euen as mych , when he intendeth none of them both : for his purpose is not to make vs byleue them / but onely to make vs beleue no more , but them : for , to go about to make vs beleue so myche , is one thynge / and to go about , to make vs beleue no more / is an other thynge . Therfore his intent is ( as who say ) there to stoppe in our fayth , that it sholde no farder / and not to brynge it thether , or there to vpholde it : For all though his blyndnesse be so great , and manyfest , that euen the very same , whiche he laborth to improue , he confesseth hym self , to be a verite of scripture ( or els wolde he neuer call it an artycle of our fayth , as in the .xvi. leaf of his boke he doth in dede , sayenge these wordes .

For though it be an article of our feyth . yet it is not an article of oour crede in the .xii. articles / whiche are sufficient for our saluation :

All though his blyndnesse ( I saye ) be so great that hym selfe doth confesse this a veryte of scrypture , which he laborth to improue . yet bycause he thought it coude not be founde ( as I sayd ) among the .xii. verytees of our crede . Euyn therfore wolde the catchepoule , as it were in a pinfold pyn vp therin our fayth , from all the verytees of scrypture besyde / and all to th intent it sholde not come at this , for the specyall grudge he bereth vnto it : Oh , there I was a lytell to large : for why sholde I say , that he beryth a specyall grudge agayne this blessed veryte , when he serueth them all a lyke ? yet am I herin sumwhat to rashe to : for why sholde I saye that he serueth them all a lyke , when he wolde sley those for this / But this for it selfe . not mych vnlyke hym , which for the malyce he bore agayne one innocent , slewe an hole multitude . But as he myssed his purpose of the one , whom he pryncypally intended . And ( to his owne perdycyon ) was but a meane of bryngyng all the resydew to a clerar lyght . Euen so I doute not of this herode lyke wyse , but that he shall mysse his purpose of this one veryte , which to destroye he doth cheyfly intende / and also in the multytude besyde , although to his owne pa●dicyon / yet be but a meane of bryngyng them to a more clere lyght of knowlege in many one . That herode and this , persecutours both / & bothe of cryst , wherin they gree / but in the maner of theyr persecution sumwhat they dyffer : for that herode dyd persecute hym dyrectely and apertely / but this he rode , vnder and with the pretence , of the contrary . That herod , sent men to fynde hym where he was not / but this herode sendeth men to lese hym , where he is : Also he , to make hym be taken / but this , to make hym forsaken : he with very cursednesse / but this , with very fals holynes . Therfore , what so euer this newe herod doth saye , as touchynge our crede . Neuer thynke , that he speaketh it , to haue vs beleue so myche as that : nor yet to show , that he beleueth it hym selfe ( for though he say so , he speketh it not for the cause ) but ( as I sayd ) he intendeth onely to make vs beleue no more : for lesse he thought he coude not . And therfore he supposynge , that to be suffycyent ( yf he myght kepe vs therin ) to exclude this veryte of the blessed sacrament , attempteth vs no forder dyrectely . But yet by meane he teacheth vs away , to forgo that to : for when he dyschargeth vs of our fayth in all the verytees of scrypture , saue those .xii. of our crede / he doth it by suche a rule as ledeth vs euen lyke wyse from them to : when he sayth .

In the other is no parell / so that we haue a probable reason to dyssent from them .

This probable reason ( as I haue tolde the ) is able to dyscharge vs of al maner of thinges , none except wherin so euer we may haue it / and therfore of all the artycles of our crede , as well as of any other veritees of scrypture besyde .

The .xxxii. chapi. Here.

A Syr , I do now perceyue , that all this whyle , ye take a probable reason farre otherwyse then Frith doth meane it .

Ca.

Hah , what sayest thou ? I pray the tell me that tale agayne .

He.

Marry syr I saye fyrth doth not here , so mene a probable reason , as you do take it .

Ca.

Trowest thou so ?

He.

No trewly / and that a man may perceyue .

Ca.

How thanne ?

He.

ye knowe well ynough , that there be taken two maner of probable reasons : for all though there be but one , whiche is the very chyefe / and hath in it the very trauth in dede . yet is there an other , whiche is called a probable reason to / not bycause it hath in it , suche a trauth as the tother hath , but bycause it is so lyke and apparant , that it is very hard to auoyde .

Ca.

Now in good fayth countreman it is very well espyed : & doest thou thynke in dede , that this latter probacyon is it , which fryth doth mene ?

He.

ye trewly , that do I : for it can stand with no reason , that he shuld mene the tother / bycause ( as I now perceyue my selfe ) one very trauth can neuer lede vs to dyssent from any other / but rather bynde vs to it .

Ca.

Doutles therin thou hytest the nayle vppon the hede . And therfore it is vtterly no more to saye , but this .

In the other is no parell so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them .

Not that probable reason , whiche hath in it the very trauth in dede . but that , which is but onely apparent / and doth but onely so seme to haue : wherfore what so euer doth but onely seme to be trew : without fayle is not trew in dede : and what so euer is not trew in dede / is vtterly but a crafte or a wyell , whiche is euer deceyuable . And therfore the very conclusyon is this . In the other is no parell / so that we haue any wylye & craftye color , or any deceyuable conueyaunce , to dyssent from them .

He.

Tusshe he neuer ment so nother I am sure .

Catho .

what nother tone way nor tother ? wylt thou haue hym speake of a probable reason , and mene it nother trewe nor false ? that can not be / except it be sayd ( as of many one it is when he speketh he woth nere what ) his wyt is not his owne . Therfore yf he mene it trewe / then it is euen this . In the other is no parell , so that we haue that probable reason to dyssent from them / whiche is impossyble to be had . And at the lest , how folyshe is he , to suppose vnto vs any such case ? Therfore yf he mene it but apparent , and not trew in dede / then it is this . In the other is no parell , so that we haue that probable reason , to dyssent from them / whiche is suche , and so easy to be had , that all we ought , to blesse vs from it .

He.

Blesse vs from it ? what nede that ?

Ca.

Nedeth it not troest thou , to blesse vs from that reason , whiche myght lede vs to dissent from any verite of scriptur ? for what is the scripture but godes worde ? Therfore what is any verite of scrypture , but the veryte of godes worde ? And what reason is that , whiche ledeth one to dyssent from any veryte of godes worde / but onely the very falsite of the dyuels worde ? yet herin , sayth fryth , there is no parell . This thou seest playnely , he moueth vs vnto : with a probable reason / he saith / we may with out any parell , dyssent from all the verytees of godes worde , saue .xii. Doth he excepte those .xii. as he thynketh in dede / or els for feare that he dare none otherwyse do ? yf he do it , but for feare / thou knowest then , what he is well ynough . yf he do , as he thynketh , how blynde is he , that can not se , what so euer maye lede a man to dyssent from one verite of godes worde , may lykewyse lede hym from an other , and an other , and so from them all togyther Therfore whyle Fryth doeth here playnely show vs a way to dyssent from the veritees of holy scrypture whiche is the worde of god / what other thynge therin doth he , but vtterly show vs the word of the dyuell ? Howbeit herein doutles he teacheth vs no wors than a specyall poynt and an hye mysterye , of his owne faculte : for without questyon , by this probable reason , founde he the meanes to dyssent and come away from the verytees of holy scripture hym selfe / or els without fayle he had byd in them styll . By this also , ryseth euer the fyrst heretyke . By this , deceyueth he an other / by this genderth they mo & mo / by this of tymes grow they to a multytude / by this , they contynew to the dysquyetnesse of the faythfull floke of cryst : Also by this reason . which is but apparent probable / whiche semeth iust and is not , which promyseth the trauth and payeth falshed / whiche showeth it selfe one , & is an other . By this ( I say ) those heretykes enticed , perswaded and led , entyce perswade and lede , from the veritees of scrypture , from the veritees of godes wordes , from the verites of lyfe euerlastynge . By this , they crye to the people , beware of deceyuers , beware of false teachers beware of subtyll sophysters . And what other thynge do they therin in dede , but inuite the people to beware of them : the which I wolde to god the people coude so vnderstand / as thou mayest easely do here of fryth , yf any sparke of lyght remayne in the at all . Therfore let vs now retorne to his thyrde case agayne breuely to se what we lefte therin behynde / he sayth .

Or / be it in case / that I heare them and vnderstand them / and yet by the reason of an other text myscōstrew them / as the bohemes do the wordes of cryst in the .vi. chapiter of Iohn .

Here he maketh his ensample of this , that the Bohemes ( as he sayth ) doth vnderstand the wordes of our sauyour cryst , in the .vi. chapiter of saynt Iohn , and yet mysconstrue them for all that , by the reason of an other text . This is accordynge and euen lyke vnto his case . And therfore yf euer thou hast hard such a brayne / be iudge thy selfe . For how is it possyble for any man , to misconstrue the same thyng , which he doth vnderstande ? it is one thyng to vnderstand , & an other to know ? is any man therfore able to take a thynge otherwyse , then he knoweth it is ? doth not the knowlege or vnderstandyng of a thynge , clene put away the mysconstruynge therof ? what is mysconstruynge , but mysunderstandynge ? for mysunderstandyng or mysconstruyng , doth , nor can neuer chaunce , but only for lack of knowlege and vnderstandynge : or els wyll he ioyne them togyther this waye / that when he vnderstandeth any veryte of scrypture / yet he can purposely , by the reason of an other text , mysconstrue it neuerthelesse , to deceyue other withall . But then myght he leue out this same / by the reason of an other text / without the which or any other occasyon besyde , he can do it euen as well of his owne mynde onely , as it shall hereafter appere playne , that in very dede , I neuer se hym do otherwyse . Therfore all though thou mayest this perceyue , the great profundyte of his wyt and lernyng bothe . Notwithstandyng I do not yet discommende the iust agrement , that is betwene his case & his example . For doutles impossyble is the tone and euen so is the tother . And therfore no lesse then a very lye , is the tone in cace / and euen full as mych is the tother in dede .

But now to retorne / he sayth / to our purpose / yf we will examen the authoritees of saynt Austen and Beda before alledged / we shall espie / that besyde the probacyon of this foresayd proposicyon they open the mysterie of all our mater / to them that haue even to se

( those he meaneth whiche are as blynde as he )

For saynt Austen sayth / that we and the olde fathers do dyffer as touchynge the bodylye meat / for they eate manna and we brede .

Now cuntreman , bycause thou dydest after hym recyt the wordes of saynt Austeyn vnto me thy selfe . I praye the hartely therfore remembre them well , and tell me trewly , whether saynt Austeyn spake so mych as any one word of brede , as this felow reporteth hym .

He.

Syr therin to confesse the trauth , saynt Austen sayth , that the fathers dyde eate manna , and we an other thyng . But in dede he hath not this same worde brede .

Ca.

Thou mayest se therfore , what a iust exposytor gentell fryth is : He thought this word bred / wolde sound sumwhat more for his purpose , then this word another thynge / which in dede soundeth towarde it nothynge at all . And therfore in the stede therof , in with brede he cometh , but not by & by immedyately after he / rehersyth the wordes of saynt Austeyn / but at length longe after : For had he brought it in streyght waye , whyle the wordes of saynt Austeyn were freshe in the mynde of the reader , he wyst well ynough , it wolde then be sone perceyued , and taken , not lyke a poynt of falshed , but for very one and the selfe same in dede . And therfore he falleth fyrst into a long bablynge of his owne inuencyon ( such as here I haue partely declared vnto the ) And then afterward when he supposeth the wordes of saynt Austeyn sumwhat groune out of remembraunce with the reader in comyth the baker with his brede , where no man loketh after it where no man wyll eate it , where no man speketh any worde of it . And therfore in few wordes by myn assent , he shal for his about be this content : what so euer men saye , or herin wyll thynke / to take his bred with hym , and go ere he drynke : for yet harde I neuer , nor no man els I suppose , that this worde / an other , or an other thynge / myght be expouned by this worde , bred / afore now : hauynge none other circumstance , to lede a man to it , then there is . Howbeit , by this meane , it is brought to passe / saynt Austeyn by this word / an other thyng / doth meane the holy sacrament . And the sacrament , fryth doth meane to be very bred / by the reason wherof , he doth expoune this worde / an other thynge / to sygnyfie bred . wherby thou mayst playnly perceyue , that he expowneth saynt Austeyns wordes , not after saynt Austeyns meanynge : but onely after his owne , as he hymself doth take it / & not as saynt Austeyn doth meane it : And what kynde of exposycion is this ? yf I expoune thy wordes after my mynde , and not after thyne / make I a trewe exposycyon or a false ?

He.

That is to playne , to be asked .

Ca.

Seest thou not therfore ( as I said ) what an exposytor fryth is ? yf thou say , that he doth not here expoude saynt Austeyn , but alledge hym , in this worde / brede / then doth he alledge hym falsely . For saynt Austeyn thou seest speketh here no suche worde . yf thou say , that he doth not alledge hym in this word bred , but therwith expoune hym / then fals is his exposycyon , bycause he foloweth not the mynde of his author . For coude not saynt Austeyn hym selfe haue put in this worde / bred / as wel as this word / an other thynge / yf he had so ment , or hadde not sene some cause to the contrary ? was his mynde so occupied , that he thought not vpon that , which was moste present reddy and apte to be thought on ? or coude he not call the worde to remebraunce ? bycause bothe it , and also the thynge that it sygnifyeth , was so straunge & farre out of vse ? he stycketh not at manna , but expresseth it with the proper name of it dyrectely : why stayeth he at this , more then at that ? why doth he touch this , with no proper name , but with a worde commune and indyfferent , in maner to all thynges ? wold he refrayne so reddy a thynge , and se no cause why ? yf he saw any , what was it ? Frith wyl not put this in dysputacyon vnto vs : he wold not heare of it / he had leuer haue vs forget it : it maketh not for his purpose as it shall well appere hereafter .

He.

yet syr in som other places saynt Austen hymselfe doth cal it brede dyrectely .

Ca.

why therfore doth Frith , alledge hym so here where he doth not so call it / & wyll not alledge hym there , where he doeth call it so ? what meneth he therby ? doth it sygnyfye nothyng ? I wyll well , that saynt Austeyn so doth call it / and that diuers tymes : but yet neuer without suche a certeyne conuenyent cyrumstaunce with all , as declareth what he meneth therin : the whiche cyrcumstaunce , Fryth perceyueth to make no lesse agayn hym / Then the word brede , semeth to sounde with hym . And therfore bycause the worde and the cyrcumstaunce , he can not fynde a sonder / he hymself wolde pryke in the tone , in some other corner : as thou seest hym here , this craftely assay / where he doth thynke , the cyrcumstaunce is away . And this is the very thing I maye trewly saye to the , whiche openeth the mysterye of all his mater , to them that haue eyen to se . wherfore take this for a generall rule , that when so euer thou thynkest hym to brynge in any authorite / yet yf he vnderstande it , after this fassyon . He bryngeth for hym in dede , euen none at all / but onely pretende that he doth , and vnder the color therof , bryngeth no more but his owne bare mynd alone , as I wyll now promyse the before , thou shalt euydently se hym , none other wyse do hereafter .

The .xxxiii. Chapi. Catho .

YE but yet syr your cōunycacyon doth ( me thynke ) myche to this dyrectely sound / that fryth , euen very purposely went about to deceiue Howbeit there is I suppose , no man lyuynge , of any conscyence at all , whiche can beleue that euer he , or any other , wolde be so vnhappy , to play the pranke , in a mater so great : for what other thynge were it so to do , but euen wylfully to dampne hym selfe ? To deceyue , and deceyue purposely is two thynges / for one may somtyme chaunce to deceyue & yet be not ware of it .

Ca.

Trauth it is : howbeit thou must yet consider this / that the falshed of his opinion , whiche he wolde men sholde byleue / is one thynge : but the waye that he taketh , to make it credyble / that is to wyt , his processe or treates , and all his handelynge therof / is an other thyng . Bycause the tone is for the tother / and therfore muste they nedes be dyuers : wherfore as touchynge the fyrst / that is the falshed of his opinion / he was perchaunce not ware of that , but toke it for trew . And although he went about to derceyue , yet peraduenture not wyttyngly therin . But as concernyng the tother parte , that is to wyt , his hole processe , all his dysputacyon & handelynge of the mater , to brynge it in credence withall . It is not possyble but he must nedes beware of that : for it was his owne studyouse acte , and voluntarye labour , purposed for the nonest ( or ellys , thou knowest thy selfe , it had neuer ben wryten . And than had he neuer left the book behynde hym ) Therfore bycause all this , was and is , none other but a certeyne conueyaunce of hym deuysed , to brynge his opynion into mens byleue . And bycause his opinion ( by this mene coueyd ) in dede is none other but vtterly fals . It must nedes folow , that all this mene is none other , but euen a conueyaunce of falshed . And is a conueyaunce of falshed , any other thyng but a fals conueyaunce ? And what other thynge , is a false conueyaunce but vtterly very falshed it self ?

He.

why syr , by this reason , al that euer he doeth is false .

Ca.

Neuer dout therin / for what so euer trauth , is ons brought to verifie falshed with all / doutles is euen therin falsified it self / bycause , yf it were not thereto brought , with a false sence / it wolde vtterly destroye falshed , & not vpholde it / it wolde make it open and manyfest , and neuer color , nor hyde it . Therfore whyle this falshed , that is to wyt / his fals conueyaunce ( which he purposely , wyttyngly , and warly , wrought & prouyded to verifye the falshed of his opinyon withall ) coude not be hyd from hym , beynge his owne proper and voluntarye acte , studyously labored ( as I said ) for thou nonest . Thou canst by no reason , excuse hym , but at lest in this , he went euen purposely about to deceyue men / excepte thou wylt say , that what so euer he wrote , he dyd it , as a man in a traunce vnwars , without any intent or purpose why . And then must thou nedes , ascrybe and impute the wylful purpose , cause and intent therof , ( without the whiche it coude neuer be done ) to some cursed occult and wycked spryt , by whom he was led therin , as an ignorant instrument .

He.

what ledde with some wycked spyrit ? nay syr not so .

Ca.

I wolde thou were able well to auoyde it .

He.

That can I sone do .

Ca.

which way .

He.

Euen this / suppose that his opinyon were fals , as ye saye that it is .

Ca.

why art thou but at the supposycyon therof yet , so mych as thou hast harde of it ?

He.

Tushe that is no mater .

Ca.

yes it is a mater , and that a lamentable / how so euer thou takest it . Howbeit I do not greattly merueyll therat , knowyng therin as I knowe .

He.

why what knowe ye therin ?

Ca.

Forth with that thou hast in hande . I wyll tell the herafter .

He.

Marry syr , suppose ( I say ) that his opinion were fals ( as ye say it is ) for the whiche it wolde folowe , that all his hole processe & conueyaunce therof , to make it credyble withall were false to , by the reason of the same . yet as he is well ware , what his opinyon is , but not that it is false . Euen so is he well ware to , what his processe and all his conueyaunce therof is : but not that it is the conueyaunce of any falshed / when , so farre as he is ware of , there is in dede none suche . For as he thynketh his opinion is trew . Euen so he thynketh is al that euer he doth to proue it by . And therfore he teacheth no falshed wyttyngly .

The .xxxiiii. chap. Catho .

TThou spekest well for hym . But yet therfore I pray the , how cometh this to passe ? that one hauynge not halfe the wytte or lernyng , that he was thought to haue before he fell to these folyshe fonde and erroneous opinions / can sone perceyue so mych folly and falshed in his boke , that there is in maner no lefe without , & yet he hym selfe , coude see therof none at all ? How ( I say ) cometh this to passe ? May we not thynke , that he met with the faculte , whiche causeth a man ( as they saye ) The lenger he lyueth the more fole he wereth ? That is to say the more he taketh of it the les wyt he hath : for yf he sawe any falshed therin , then went he wyttyngly about to deceyue : yf he saw none , where is so myche / what bytter smooke so trombled his eyes , that he coud not espye some part of it ? was he not taken troest thou in to the tuition , of some darke tutor , which ( for all thy sayenge ) caused hym therin to wander , he wyst nere where ? how myght we thynke otherwyse , yf we with dilygence perpende well the mater ? For the very trauth to say , yf the deuyll hym selfe , were at the lybertye , to be incarnate / and euen so to come amonge vs , onely to entyce and lede vs from any artycle of our fayth . Let me se , ymagyon thy selfe , how it were possyble , for that father & founten of all craftye falshed , to inuente for that purpose any maner of wyell , comparable to this , which we fynde in fryth . That is to wyt , to heare vs in hande , it is indyfferent , and at our owne lybertye , to byleue it or not , there is no parell in the mater , take whiche part we lyste : for how many trewe men is there in this world , touched with neuer so lytel a nede / that myght not sone , be brought to stelynge , yf they were borne in hande , and so persuaded to thynke in dede , that it were an act indyfferent , & without all maner of parell to them that wold vse it ? ye what maner of euyls are they , whiche men , now full honeste , wolde then forbere and refrayne , wherin yf they thought , were to them no daynger ? Or which way myght they so easely be led vnto them , as to be styffely so borne in hand ? ye make them but ones beleue that , & lede them no fardyr : for it shal then be no nede at all : a maruelous zele of iustyce hath he , that wolde not sone , pley the thyfe at a companions request / yf he were ons brought in opinyon , that therin coude be , to hym no maner of parell : thus lerned Fryth / of whom so euer he was taught / that he hadde a wonders faste fayth in this blessed sacrament , which wold not sone be content to leue it , yf he were ons brought in opinion , that therin coud come vnto hym no hurt : he saw it a matter of most difficulte to bryng cristen people from that fayth direcly : but he saw it agayn a mater as easy yf they myght ons be made beleue no parell therin , yf they so dyd : fulwell he wyst , brynge them ons to that opynion , and let them then alone them selfe , it shuld be ynowgh , with the helpe of his owne darke doctor whiche taught hym this lesson : for doutles , from whens it came , the propertees therof themselfe , doth apertely show / as mych as the most excedynge wylynesse , falshed and folishnesse that may be , is able to do : of the wylynesse , ( wherof we now speke ) what shuld I say ? but marke it well , with deliberation indyfferently , & be iudge thyselfe , whether it doth not in thy consyderacyon , so swel and incresse that it wexeth in maner incomprehensyble . Of the falshed ( about the openynge wherof we haue ben almost all this whyle ) all though no man be able suffycyently to expresse it . yet therof so mych hast the harde , as is farre from the nede , of any more : Of the folyshnesse , there is not els to be sayde / but I am sure thou neuer hardest nor sawe the lyke . For who ( but he that dwelleth in so depe a doungeon of darkenesse , that he can see no maner of lyght ) wolde make any maner of dyuysyon in a mater : and yet playnly houlde , that there is vtterly no such mater to deuide ? For the tone part of his work ( wherof now we haue well tryed ynough to se what it is ) is onely to proue , that no man is bounde to beleue the blessed bodyly presence of our sauyour chryst in the sacrament : but yet that euery man without any parell so maye byleue , yf he wyll . And the tother parte / as all his boke doth clerely testyfye / is to proue , that there is vtterly no suche thynge in dede for to byleue : wherof / besyde his hye connynge dyuisyon , of this indiuisible nothyng , after his own doctrine / playne it is , that he teacheth vs manyfestely ( god rewarde hym as he knoweth beste ) euen to haue a false byleue . when he sayth we may beleue , that hym selfe doth saye , is not : and yet hym selfe wyll not beleue , that he and we do saye there is . For we say it is an artycle of our fayth / and euen so sayth he . Howbeit he holdeth it indyfferent to beleue it or not / but yet so do not we . And for that cause he wyll not byleue it one whyt , tyll we do both agre . The which he hath brought so nye the poynt , that now it wyll neuer be . And therfore wyll I tell the one thynge more / which I had clene forgotten before .

Here.

what was that ?

Ca.

An other prety cause why , that he / as I showed the / so deuydeth all the other verytees of scripture , from those .xii in the cred

He.

what cause shuld that be ?

Ca.

In the laste lefe of his booke his owne wordes doeth well declare , whiche be these .

There are many veritees / he sayeth / whiche yet maye be no suche articles of oure feythe

He.

Is this all ?

Ca.

Nay not so , but fyrst , what articles meneth he , by these no such ?

He.

No such as be of our crede .

Ca.

well sayd . And what verytees doth he meane here , that may be no suche articles .

He.

All the other veritees of scrypture .

Ca.

Heare his wordes agayne , with those that foloweth , and therin let them be iudge

There are / feyth he / many veritees . which yet may be no suche articles of oure feythe . It is trwe that I laye in yrons when I wroote this . how beit I wolde not reseyue this truth for an article of oure feyth . for yow maye thynke the contrary without all ●●oberty of dampnation .

Consyder well now , this gere together . And thou mayst sone perceyue , that this same ensample of his imprisonment , doth clerely show that he meneth not here , by these same / many veritees / any veritees of scrypture , but the veritees indyfferently of other thynges : which verytees in generall , with the veryte of his imprysonment in specyall , he bryngeth for ensample , how he wolde haue vs take all the veritees of scrypture : For as the verite of his imprisonement , may be no such article of our fayth , as be those of our crede . Euen so after the same maner , wolde he haue all those other verytees of scrypture lykwyse ( whyche th ensample doeth playnly teache ) But the verite of his imprysonement , & al other lyke besyde / are not only none suche , but vtterly none artycles at all in dede . The very same therfore is it , which he goeth about in all the verytees of scrypture / scantly those excepte of the crede . Before , yet he left them as artycles indyfferent , but now wyll he haue them none at all : or els all other as mych as they : what wonder is it though he this deuide them , as of an other kynde , from the veritees of the crede ( seyeng we may be saued without them / & therfore that we nede not beleue them ) when they be with hym , of no more estymacyon than be al such other veritees beside as euen for ensample , The styple of Pouls is hygher then the crosse in cheep ? And bycause the veryte therof is none article of our fayth , for all it is a veryte in dede . Therfore no more be any or all the verytees of holy scrypture , saue onely those expressed in the crede : were not a man happye to mete with such a doctor to teache him his faith ? Doest thou not perceyue the myghty powre & strength of this verite , whyche he wolde so fayne ouerthrowe , when thou seest it geue hym so scornefull fauls , in euery wyell that he attempteth agayne it ? In all this , what doth he ellys , but make the verytees of diuyne thynges & humane thynges , heuenly thynges , & erthly thynges , euerlastynge thynges & temporall thynges / equall euen , & of no more worthynesse or dygnyte , one then an other , when he wyll haue vs no more bounde to byleue , the tone then the tother ? For more I suppose is no man bounde to the estymacyon of thynges , then he is bounde , to the byleue of them . It is trewe ( he sayth ) that he lay in yrons when he wrote this / but yet wolde he not receyue that trauth , for an artycle of our fayth . And doutles yet went he than , more nere about to make it one , then ( as I suppose ) he was ware of hym selfe : For surely he brought it almoste within one worde of it . For had he put in , as the trauth requyred , but this same worde , whorthely , more then he dyd . And sayd , it is trewe , that I lay in yrons worthyly , when I wrote this . without fayle it had ben then so nye an artycle of our fayth , that who so euer were suffycyently instructed of the mater , coude neuer thynke the contrary , without great ieoperdye of damnacyon . For dowtles suche as thynke hym on worthy lye prysoned , knowynge the cause , be of the same opinion that he was ( god of his mercy graunte them soone to amende it ) for how dampnable that opinion is , and it were but by these his reasons ( as to some they seme ) whiche we haue dyscussed hytherto all redy , it may ryght well and suffycyently appere : how be it god wyllynge , in the resydue yet to come , it shall be then no dout to the most effeccyonat frendes , that euer therin he had : those onely except , whiche gat it by the very same meane , that he came by it hym self . Therfore with this to pause & rest for the tyme , thou mayst playnely see , how his foundacyon ( whiche not a lytell he bosteth so stronge & inuincyble ) now lyeth all to shaak , toorne , and clene dyspersed euery stone from other / except thou wylt say , that he made it of no such mater , but onely of a dyrtye dunghyll heepe of cannell rakyng / the which few men coude fynde in theyr hartes so nye it to come for styncke , as ons to geue a sporne therat . & therfore it lay so long in rest . Now countreman fare well , tyll an othertyme

The. xxxv . chap. Here.

MArry syr a fayre partynge .

Ca.

why what eyleth it ?

He.

what shulde it profyte to tell you , yf we shall leue it this ?

Ca.

There is no remedy : for I can tary no longer now .

He.

Then syr when shall we mete togither agayn ?

Ca.

Euen when thou wylt thy selfe .

He.

That by my wyll , shall be no farder hens but euen to morow / whyle this that I haue harde to daye , is somwhat freshe in remembraunce .

Ca.

I am well content .

He.

But where shall I mete with you .

Ca.

In no place better then euen here .

He.

what tyme ? at after none ?

Ca.

Naye it is none after nones workes , I maye saye to the , for the hole daye longe , I fere wold be lyttell ynough . And therfore come by nyne a clocke at the fardyst . For thou neuer hardyst such a worke of an hetetyke , syns thou were borne , as thou shalte heare I promyse ye.

He.

what wors then I haue harde to daye ?

Ca.

Be iudge thy selfe when thou hearest it .

He.

well syr I wyll not fayle myn our / for I shall now thynke longe tyll it come .

Ca.

God be with the therfore tyll then .

He.

Naye syr I wyll brynge ye homewarde .

Ca.

No no it shall not nede .

He.

yes syr I maye not chose for halfe your way and myne is all one .

Ca.

why then come on let vs go togyther / for so farre .

He.

Then syr is it not yet as good we be talkynge in our way , for the whyle as aught els .

Ca.

yes & I am very well pleased therwithall , yf thou hast any thyng to say .

He.

yes marry syr , that haue I , & that is thys , I wold fayne know , by what reason you can proue , that this same article , whiche we haue ben about all this whyle , is one of them , which we be bound of necessite to beleue : ye haue hytherto labord to improue Fryth , for holdyng the contrary : but yet haue you done vtterly nothynge to the probacyon of it your selfs / for it is two thynges to proue Frythes opinion fals , and to proue your owne trewe .

Ca.

Trowest thou so ?

He.

I thynke so .

Ca.

well all though the probacyon of the trauth , can not haue his very apt and most conuenient place , tyll the falshed be clene ●efelled and thorouly put away , and that in the hole , as it is nowe , but in the fyrste part onely . yet all voyde of thy request / wyll I not leue the , bycause I see that somwhat desyrous to heare of the mater . And therfore whyle Frythes opinion is this , that it is an artycle but indyfferent , and of no necessite for to be beleued : and ours clene & dyrectely the contrary . For the which the tone parte or the tother , muste nedes be trew : it muste therfore clerely folow , bycause the falshed is found of his syde playn , that vtterly the trauth remayneth with vs .

He.

Nay syr that foloweth not . For the falshed that is founde with Fryth , is in his probacyon , & not in the thynge , whiche he goeth about to proue . For ye know ryght well , that a man maye mysse in the probacyon of a trewe thynge somtyme , yet is not the thyng fals , bycause the probacion is not trew .

Ca.

Thus mayst thou excuse euery falshed which any fals harlot goeth about to proue trew . For sone mayst thou saye , all though he fayle in his probacyon : yet is the thynge trewe ynough / bycause a man may be deceyued in the probacyon of a trewe thynge : when in dede the falshed of a thynge , is oft tymes more then halfe dysclosed / euen by the falshed of the probacyon therof , it beynge on s perceyued . Therfore although the manyfest falshed of frythes probacyons , do not euen very dyrectly proue , the falshed of his opinion . yet maketh it at the lest an ineuytable coniecture therof . And euen therfore as mych for the trauth , of oure syde . For what doeth this thynge show , that all the reasons that he doeth make , or is able to ymagyon for the purpose , doth not onely not proue his intent , but also draw with them such odible consequences besyde , as no good crysten eare , wyll not excedyngly abhorre to heare . what doth all this ( I say ) show , but that the myghty and inuincyble trauth of the contrary part , wyll in no case suffre it selfe to be improued ? Moreouer what wylt thou sey yf Fryth do suffycyently proue our parte hym selfe .

He.

what syr it can neuer be , for all his hole purpose is vtterly to the contrary .

Ca.

yet marke hym well / for he intendyng in dede to proue the contrary , maketh neuer a reason , but that ( as I haue playnly declared vnto the ) it ronneth euen vtterly , as mych agayne the necessyte of any & euery other artycle besyde , as it doth agayn this , for the which he dyd purpose it . And that were not possyble except this were one of of them , and of the self same nature that they be . For how shold any of his reasons purposed agayn the necessyte of this artycle onely , touche the necessyte of all or any other lykewyse / more then they touche the lyght of the sonne , the heate of the fyre , or the hardenes of dyamondes , and other lyke / beynge no more purposed agayne those artycles , then agayn these thynges / but vtterly bycause those articles , and this , agayne the whiche they were purposed by all one & of the selfe same nature . And these thynges , eche of them clene of an other ? For what so euer reason is purposed with or agayne any thyng , so farre doth it alwaye ronne , as the communite of the nature of the thyng doth extende , & no fardyr . As be it in case , that one wolde take vpon hym , to proue or improue , thy soule only to be immortall / what so euer reason he sholde make with or agayne it / without fayle must nedes ronne lykewyse to the soules of all men besyde : and that were not possyble , yf that immortalyte were not comune betwene theyr soules and thyne . And after the same maner / thou cause why that Frythes reasons doth ronne as well agayne the necessyte of all other artycles , as it doth agayne this , for the which they were purposed , is vtterly bycause the very same necessyte is commune bytwene them and this / for els , it were not possyble , for those reasons purposed but onely agayne this / to make any thyng agayne the necessyte of those / more then agayne ( as I sayde ) the lyght of the sonne , or any thyng els besyde : wherfore it must nedes folow that this artycle is of as great necessyte to be beleued as any other And therfore where Fryth wolde haue proued it indyfferent & coude not : he hath well proued it necessary and wolde not . Thou gettest no more now .

He.

yes syr I pray you tell me one thynge more and then wyll I bede you farewell .

Ca.

what is that ?

He.

Marry syr I haue red Frithes booke , I wene as oft as ye haue done yet coude I neuer perceyue in it this gere that ye haue declared . And I maruell what shulde be the cause therof .

Catho .

It is no maruayle at all / for dowtles yf Fryth had no more vertue wyt and lernynge in thyne opynion / then he hadde in his owne hed / thou shuldest sone haue perceyued myche more then I haue tolde the. And that shalt thou fynde by experyence yf thou withdrawe thyne opynyon from hym .

He.

Trowe ye so ?

Ca.

There is no dout of it ?

He.

well syr here is my waye now , and therfore wyll I trouble you no longer at this tyme .

Ca.

well then fare well countreman tyll to morow

He.

God be with you syr .

Ca.

And with the to .

He.

At nyne of the cloke ye saye .

Ca.

ye what els .

He.

I wyll not fayle you .

Finis . Here endeth the fyrste book .

printer's or publisher's device Dominus dedit dominus abstulit sicut domino placuit ita factum est .