A declaracion of the state, wherin all heretikes dooe leade their liues and also of their continuall indeuer, and propre fruictes, which beginneth in the. 38. chapiter, and so to thende of the woorke. By Iohn Gwynnethe clerke.

¶ An introduction of the matter . Cap. 1. CCATHOLICVS ,

Hearke I saie cuntreman , a worde with the.

HERETICVS .

Speake ye to me sir ?

CATH.

What question is that , where there is none , but thou and I ?

HERE .

What woulde ye with me ?

CATH.

Shall I tell the ?

HERE .

At your pleasure .

CATH.

Trewly , When I sawe the cumminge this wai alone , thou madest me therwith verie gladde .

HERE .

Why so ?

CATH.

Doutles because I haue bene a greate while verie desirous to talke with the.

HERE .

With me sir ?

CATH.

Ye with the. And yet coulde I neuer finde the tyme and place , but by reason of companie , or one thinge or other , there was alwaie some occasion to interrupt and let my purpose ? Therfore now , while it hath chaunced vs , thus luckily ( as I hope ) here to meete in this quiete place , where there be no suche impedimentes , but that we maie saie , thou to me , and I to the , what so euer shall like vs best : I shall for my part ( if thou wilt abide and harken well to me ) showe the some thinges , perchaunce not a litle beyonde thine expectacion .

HERE .

Sir of such thinges , wolde I be gladde to here . But yet I meruaile greatly , that ye shoulde be so desirous to talke with me . For I suppose ye knowe me not .

CATH.

Yes well enoughe , by sight and here saie .

HERE .

why , what haue ye herde of me ?

CATH.

In verie dede , I will not longe hide it from the. How be it thou knowest , that deliberacion geueth somtime , a great occasion of wisdome : where as haste doeth oft times the contrarie . For that thinge , whiche a man doothe some tyme iudge , well and mete to be doone or saide at the firste , by furder leisure and deliberacion taken therin , he perceiueth at length to be farre otherwise , whiche I do now finde by experience .

HERE .

How so ?

CATH.

I shall tell the. When I was first moued and be came desirous to commune & talke with the ( letted hitherto as I haue showed the ) I did then intend to haue asked of the a certaine question , which I perceue now ( by reason of a more deliberate consideration conceiued since in the meane space ) had ben but very superfluous and to no purpose .

HERE .

Why so ?

CAHT.

what auaileth it , to aske a question of him , which can not tell the trewthe therof ?

HERE .

Thinke ye that in me ?

CATH.

Ye trewly .

HERE .

Why , what is the question ?

CATH.

I haue tolde the a cause why , it were but in vayne to show the.

HERE .

yet I pray you , since ye haue gone so farre with all , let me here it , and it were but for my fantasie .

CATH.

So maist thou dooe and neuer the nere . How be it I will not sticke with the , for more then that . And therfore the question is this , I had thought than , to haue asked the , whether thou be an heretike or not .

HERE .

That is a straunge question to me , but yet neuerthelesse , doo you thinke that I can not tell the trewth therof ?

CATH.

I thinke so in dede .

HERE .

Then who can dooe it , if I can not , specially when it towcheth me onely , and no man els ?

CATH.

yet who so euer can , sure it is that thou cannest not .

HERE .

why so ?

CATH.

Because ther is no heretike , that can tell whether he be an heretike or not .

Cap. 2. HERE .

A sir , well concluded . For now I perceue ye take me for an heretike .

CATH.

I saie not so . But yet for so muche as I haue herde the often reported , to be an excedyng great fauourer and defender of Frith , and fayne wolde knowe the crewthe therof , thinkyng ( at the firste ) that no man coulde tell me better then thou thy selfe : I thought therfore then , to haue asked the question of the , and of no man els . But vpon farder consideracion therof had , because I nowe finde no man more , nor yet so muche vnable , to answere the question as thou art in dede : I therfore thought to passe it ouer , and not to trouble the with all , at this tyme .

HERE .

Ye but coulde ye none other wise inquere of me , whether I were a fauourer of Frith or not , but to aske me , whether I be an heretike or not ?

CATH.

That is no matter , for all is one .

HER.

Then can I gather no lesse of your saiynge , but that ye take ( at the least ) Frith or me , For an heretike , or els bothe .

CATH.

In dede thou hast hit me therin , with suche a trewth , as I am not able to auoide .

HER.

Well syr , I will be plaine with you , how so euer ye take it , Frith was a man , whom I loued with all my herte , and shall doe while I liue .

CATH.

I loue the , for that , neuer the better .

HER.

And I loue my selfe neuer the worse .

CATH.

Thou cannest not tell that . For the scripture dooeth saie . Psal. 10. Qui diligit iniquitatem , odit animam suam . He that loueth iniquitee , hath his own soule . And yet many a one , that so doth , thinketh them selues to loue their own soules well enough . But neuerthelesse , credence is to be geuen to the scripture , what so euer thei saie or thinke .

HERE .

Thinke you , that I loue iniquitee , in that I loue Frith ?

CATH.

I thinke so in dede , if thou loue him ( as I beleue thou doest ) for his hereticall opinions .

HERE .

A ha , then it is playne enough , that ye take hym for an heretike . For what maketh an heretike but heriticall opinions ?

CATH.

Nothynge els , that I knowe .

HERE .

Therfore fayne wolde I here of you , what heriticall opinions ye can fynde in hym , to proue hym an heretike by .

CATH.

Before we come to that , let vs firste ( as I thynke it best ) serche , trie , and proue , what the state of an heretike is . That vpon the knowlage of what case or condicion he liueth in , we maie the better perceiue , what he is , and consequently whether Frith were any suche or no.

HERE .

With that I am content .

CATH.

Therfore , the firste notable thynge , that I fynde in the state of an heretike is this , that it is not possible for hym to knowe , that he is an heretike .

HER.

I meruaile greatly what shuld moue you to be of that opinion .

CATH.

Trewly I haue therein , none opinion at all .

HERE .

Why than do ye speake it ?

CATH.

Not because of any opinion therof , but because I do certainly know it , which passeth opinion . And therfore , because thou thinkest the matter so straynge , I wyll adde vnto it this much more , that there is none of them , that dooeth or can so muche as beleue or thinke , that him selfe is an heretike .

HERE .

What not so muche as beleue or thinke it ?

CATH.

No trewly .

HERE .

It is to farre against reason , for any man maie thinke , what so euer he luste , whether it be trewe or false .

CATH.

Thou art therin muche deceiued . For all though , to thinke and to beleue may be taken all one , yet to thinke & to imagine , are not both one . For thou maist imagine , all steples and towers to haue spronge out of the grounde as trees doe : and also euery thynge to be otherwise then thou knowest it is , if thou wilt . But yet thou canst not so thinke or beleue , although thou woldest neuer so fayne . For thou canst not ( if thou marke it well ) beleue or thinke any thyng , against thine owne knowlage . But yet for all that , Thou maiest so imagine alwaie at thy pleasure . Whereof it appereth playne , that imaginacion is one , and thinkynge or beleuyng is an other . Therfore although an heretike maie imagine hym selfe to be an heretike , ( as perchaunce he will not ) yet ( as I saide ) he can neuer ( for all that ) so beleue or thinke , although he wolde . Muche lesse then , is he able to knowe it . And who therfore wolde aske hym the question ?

Cap. 3. HERE .

Yet maie he as soone beleue and also knowe that , as I can beleue you , when ye saie that he can not , excepte ye shewe me some good reason why .

CATH.

Thou must nedes graunt me this , that there is no man an heretike , but because he beleueth amisse in some parte of the faithe .

HERE .

That is trewe .

CATH.

Therfore if he coulde beleue that he were an heretike , than might he beleue that thynge , whiche he doeth not beleue , and that bothe at once , whiche were impossible . For it is not possible for a man to beleue any thynge , to be euen than any other wise than he doeth beleue it is . As thus , suppose one so wicked , as to beleue our sauior Christ to be but onely a pure man , and not also very god : as in tyme paste , some heretikes did .

HERE .

What of that ?

CATH.

Euen this , if he that so beleueth , coulde beleue , that he were therin ( as he is in dede ) an heretike , he shulde than beleue and thinke , that he beleued therin amisse . Wherfore , if he did beleue and thinke , that he beleueth amisse , in that he beleueth our sauiour Christe to be but onely a man , plaine it is , that he shulde therin beleue hym to be both god and man , whan he doth thinke hym selfe to beleue amisse , beleuyng the contrarie : and so shuld he beleue & not beleue one thynge both at once , which ( as I saide ) is impossible . wherfore it must nedes folowe , that an heretike can neuer beleue or thinke , that hym selfe is an heretike .

HERE .

Syr I doe nowe somewhat perceiue the thynge my selfe . For if I be nat deceiued , it is lyke , as if you did beleue and verily thinke the great Turke to be now here in Englande in dede , it were not possible for you to beleue , that ye beleue therin amisse , whan your beleue is vtterly , that it is euen so . For whan ye beleue , that he is in Englande , if ye coulde beleue , that ye beleued therin amisse , than might ye beleue , that he were not in Englande , whan ye beleue hym to be in it , and so shulde ye beleue and not beleue one thynge ( as ye saide ) bothe at once , whiche I perceiue were agaynst all reason and trewthe .

CATH.

Doutles thou speakest herein veray well to the purpose , and that perchaunce wolde yet more playnly appere by this . Beleue is suche a thynge , as can neuer wittyngly be deceiued , for as soone as thou dooest thynke , that thou beleuest in any thynge amisse , furthe with in the same instant thy beleue therin is clene altered and chainged , and is not the same that it was before . And therfore because heresie is none other , but in some parte of the faithe , a missebeleue , and a misse beleue is not possible to be perceiued of hym , in whom it is : it must nedes folowe , that no heretike can beleue or thinke that hym selfe is an heretike , because he can not beleue or thinke , that he beleueth therin amisse .

Cap. 4. HERE .

Sir this is nowe farre from the nede of any more probacion .

CATH.

Ye but yet , thou seest not all .

HERE .

Why so ?

CATH.

If thou marke it well , this conclusion maie take awaie no small wonder from many men .

HERE .

what wonder is that ?

CATH.

Trewly what shuld be the cause of the rare and seldome amendment of heretikes : wherof partly hath spronge this comune opinion , that heresie , fransie , & ielosie be three diseases incurable : Not because thei be al vtterly so in dede , but because they be so sildome sene , to bee throughly cured & healed ageyne . And specially of heresy , what wonder is it , although it be seldome or neuer forsaken & amended ? whan it is ( as thou hast now herde ) to euery heretike ( as to one in a continuall traunce ) vtterly vnknowne & incredible , that him selfe is any thinge therwith infected . for he thinketh verily , that he is in the streight waie , not remembringe therof , what the holy scripture saieth , Est via que videtur homini recta , Prou. 16. & nouissima eius ducunt ad mortem , That is to saie , There is a waie whiche seemeth to a man streighte , and yet the endes therof leadeth hym to perdicion . And therfore who can expell and put that awaie from him , whiche he can not beleue that euer it came nere hym ? who can desyre to be healed of that infirmitee , wherwith he can not thynke that euer he was diseased ? or who can be willing for to amende , wherin he can not so muche as thinke , that euer he did offende , specially whan we may dayly see the amendemet of manifeste euils , very seldome or neuer brought to passe in some , whan they bothe beleue and knowe them selues to be infected with them . Yet muche easier it is ( be it neuer so harde ) to leaue and amende that is perceiued and knowne amisse , than it is ( be it neuer so easie ) to auoide and forsake that , which is cleane hid , vnknowne , and incredible . Who therfore , or what can purge , cure , or heale this most perelous and insensible sicknes , but only the great mercie of him , which of a blinde and crewell persecutour , made a moste pacient and excellent preacher ? Act. 9. but how shuld his most mercifull medicine be opteined , where it is neuer desired ? and howe can it be desired , where the cause why , nother is , nor can be perceiued ? By this therfore thou maiste haue some vnderstanding of the lamentable state of an heretike , who of all men is in moste daunger : and yet fardest of , from all good remedie , helpe , or succour .

HERE .

Haue you any worse to saie of him than that .

CATH.

In dede I haue more , whether it be worse or no , I will referre that to thy iudgement , if thou wilt tarry the hearing therof .

HERE .

Yes sir that will I doe , if this daie will serue the turne .

Cap. 5. CATH.

Then what wilt thou saie , if this felowe be he , whom the prophet doeth meane , where he saith : Psal. 13. Dixit insipiens in cordo suo , non est deus , The foolishe man saide in his herte , there is no god ?

HERE .

What heretike can we finde or reade of , that euer saide in his herte there is no god .

CATH.

Recken whiche of them thou wilt , thou canste not choose amisse .

HERE .

By that , ye will make it euery one of theim .

CATH.

I will not make it , but so it is for all that .

HERE .

It were harde to make me beleue it .

CATH.

The due order of inuincible reason , shall bringe the to it , if thou wilt stande to that : For the probacion of the thinge , is easie to be made , ye and ( soberly herde ) more easie to be vnderstande .

HERE .

When I here it , I will tell you more of my minde .

CATH.

Of this thou art assured by the scripture before alleged , that some there be , which saie in the he●te , there is no god .

HERE .

That I dooe now take to be trew , For els the scripture wolde not speake therof , as it dooeth .

CATH.

Therfore what other thinge is it , to saie in the herte , there is no god , then euen secretly in the herte , to denie god ?

HERE .

I take that to be all one .

CATH.

If thou so doo , thou takest it right . And therfore because it is sure , that Christ is very god him selfe , it muste nedes folow , that he , whiche denieth god in his herte , denieth Christe .

HERE .

Of that conclusion , faine wolde I here some better prose .

CATH.

An other thou maiest , but no better .

HERE .

Then an other .

CATH.

That shal be this . Thou knowest ( I suppose ) that Christ in diuerse places of scripture , 1. Pet. 1. is declared to be ( as he is in dede ) the very sonne , of god the father ? 1. Ioan. 1.

HERE .

That is trew .

CATH.

And euen so is this , that he , which denieth god , denieth any suche father , for that which is not , can be no father . And he that denieth any suche father , denieth also therin any suche sonne . For no suche sonne can be , of no suche father , nor no suche father can be , of no god . And therfore of no suche father and no suche son , must nedes folowe no Christe , for he were not Christe , if he were not the verie and onely sonne of god , whom in the hert , ( as the scripture saith ) the foolish felowe denieth . And therfore consequently euen Christe also .

HERE .

Now I perceue and graunt the same .

CATH.

Then furder saieth the dew order of reason this , that he , whiche denieth Christ , denieth the verie trewth of all his whole feith .

HERE .

Perchaunce that maie be trewe .

CATH.

There is no chaunce in that point , for it is more playne , then shall nede any farder probacion . And therfore he , which denieth the trewth of all the whole faithe , denieth therin some part therof , or els he could not deni the whole .

HERE .

That is out of all question .

CATH.

Then muste this folowe , that he whiche denieth the trewth of any parte of the faith , denieth therin the trewthe of all the whole .

Cap. 6. HERE .

That I must nedes denie , because it folowith not . for although this must nedes folowe , that he which denieth the trewth of all the whole , denieth therin some parte therof , yet ( of the other side ) it is not possible for this to folowe , that he whiche denieth some part therof , denieth therin the trewth of all together . for these two latter proposicions , can neuer be conuertible .

CATH.

what meanest thou , by proposicions conuertible ?

HER.

Two saienges , wherof eache muste nedes folowe other , put before or behinde , which of them ye will .

CATH.

And doest thou thinke , that these two , be none of them ?

HERE .

I thynke so .

CATH.

Thou arte therin deceiued : For they be conuertible in dede , and so are all the reste that went before , wherof these two , doo iustly folowe . And that shalt thou see streight , for I will go backward with them again , and begin with this , whiche thou shalt not denie : who so euer is an heretike , he denieth some parte of the faith at the leaste .

HER.

That is trewe . for els he were no heretike at all .

CATH.

And who so euer denieth any part of the faith , denieth therin the trewth therof .

HERE .

I muste nedes graunt that also .

CATH.

And who so euer denieth the trewth of any part of the faithe , denieth therin the trewthe of all the whole .

HERE .

That I muste and will ( as I saide ) vtterly denie .

CATH.

Then muste I proue it .

HERET.

Yea sir if ye can : but I thinke it will be a good while firste .

CATH.

Then it shall be longe of the. For if all the trewthe , of all the whole feith be conteined in euery parte therof , who can auoide this , but he that denieth any parte therof , denieth therin , the trewthe of all the whole .

HERE .

Ye syr if it be so , but firste proue , that it is so , And then afterwarde conclude as ye may .

CATH.

It shall nede no very great profe , after a certaine declaration made , of suche three thynges , as I shall shewe the.

Cap. 7. HERE .

Whiche be those ?

CATH.

The firste is , what is more then trewthe . The seconde is , what is lesse then trewthe . The thirde is , what is other then trewthe . These three , that is to witte , more then trewthe , lesse then trewthe , and other then trewthe , are all and eache of them , euen as farre from trewthe , as trewthe it selfe is from no trewthe : whiche be directe contraries .

HERE .

How shall this appere ?

CATH.

Uery well and plaine enough . For perticularly , to beginne with the first , of this we maie be well assured , that trewthe can be no more then trewthe .

HERE .

That I muste nedes graunte .

CATH.

Thou canst doe no lesse . And therfore when trewthe can be no more then trewthe , it muste nedes folowe , that more then trewthe can be no trewthe .

HERETIC .

To that I assente also .

CATHOLICVS .

Then secundarily , we bee likewise assured of this , that trewthe can be no lesse then trewthe .

HERE .

That is more playne , then can be denied .

CATH.

Therfore whan trewth can be no lesse then trewth : as plaine it is , that lesse then trewth , can be no trewthe nother .

HERE .

To that I muste nedes agree .

CATH.

Then thirdly we maie not doubte , that trewth can be any other then trewth .

HERE .

That is out of all question .

CATH.

Therfore when trewthe can be none other than trewth , doth it not therfore iustly folowe , that other then trewthe , can be no trewthe ?

HERE .

Well syr , all this hitherto , I wyll not denie .

CATH.

Then to the purpose , and as touchyng the first , if the trewthe of the whole feithe , were any more , then the trewthe of the least parte of it , then were it more then trewthe . For the trewthe of the leaste parte is trewthe , and trewe to be more then trewthe , is all ready proued impossible . Wherfore the trewthe of the whole feith , can be no more , then the trewth of the lest parte of it . Agein , for the seconde , by lyke reason , if the trewthe of the least parte of it , were any lesse , then the trewthe of the whole feithe , then were it lesse then trewthe . For the trewthe of the whole , is trewthe : but trewthe to bee lesse then trewthe , is well knowne can neuer bee . Therfore the trewthe of the least parte of the feithe , is no lesse , then the trewthe of all the whole . Now thirdly , if the trewthe of any one parte , were not the very same , but an other , then the trewthe of any other parte : then were it an other then trewth . For the trewth of any other parte is trewth , and trewth to be any other then trewth , is scant imaginable . Wherfore there can be none other trewthe , in any one parte of the feithe , than there is in any of the other , or in all the reste together . Therfore because the deniall of any one parte of the feithe , is none other but the deniall of the trewthe therof . And whan there is no more , no lesse , nor none other trewthe in all the whole feithe , then is in euery singular parte therof : it muste nedes folowe , that who so euer denieth any parte of the feithe , denieth therin the trewthe of all the whole . And ciere it is , that he whiche denieth the trewthe of all the whole feithe , denieth Christe : And he that denieth Christe , denieth god . And thus doth euery heretike with out faile . Wherfore of euery one of theim all , these woordes of the prophet , The foolishe felowe saide in his herte , there is no god , maie well and trewly be verified . Psal. 13.

Cap. 3. HERE .

Syr I beleue this matter wyll yet trouble vs bothe , ere we parte , for all this .

CATH.

Why so ?

HERE .

Because there cometh nowe to my remembrance , suche , and so many thynges to the contrarie , as maketh me thinke , that all this can not holde .

CATH.

Then thou haste but a sclender wit , or a fickell mynde , that will so quickly be moued , or with any thyng allured , from so well approued trewthe , as this is . Thou mightest rather haue saide , that there cometh many thingꝭ to thy remembrance , whiche causeth the to maruell , howe thei with this can agree together : because there is no trewth in any one thynge , that can be against the trewth of any other . For trewth against trewth , is no more to saie , but trewthe ageinst it selfe , whiche is not possible . Therfore if these thynges , whiche nowe so cometh ( as thou saiest ) to thy remembrance be trewe , doubtles they with this , maie ioigne and agree together well enough , although thy knowlage can not see how . Of thother side , if thei be not trewe , thei must be reiected and refused : because this , by them or any other like , can not be auoided . Wherfore to exclude all maner of tergiuersacion herein to come , let this , whiche is ( as thou hast herde ) so dewly proued all redie , be fully agreed and stablished betwene vs in the meane tyme , as a most sure truthe and grounde to reste vpon : or at the leaste , till thou hast founde some good cause why , it ought not so to be taken . which I am sure thou canst not dooe . And therfore , let me now here what thynges those be , whiche moueth me to the contrarie .

HERE .

Syr I will tell you . And firste for example , the resurrection of Christe , ye knowe is one parte of the feithe , and th ascension is an other .

CATH.

All that is playne .

HERET.

Then , if the veray same trewth , no more , no lesse , nor none other , were in the one article that is in the other , it muste nedes folowe , that the resurrection and the ascencion shulde bee bothe one .

CATH.

Howe so ?

HERET.

Ye wyll not denie , but when I saie Christe rose from death to lyfe , I saie trewthe .

CATH.

What els ?

HERE .

And when you saie , that he ascended , you saie truthe likewise .

CATH.

Agreed .

HERE .

Then if these bee not two distincte truthes , but are bothe one , so that the one is none other , but euen the very same that the other is , then saie you the very same that I doe . And I the verie same that you dooe .

CATH.

Ye but what same is that ? I graunte , I saie the same trewthe , that thou doest : but yet not the same thyng , wherin the same truth is . But thou takest the trewthe ( I perceiue ) & the thynges , wherin it is , to be all one . And therfore because the thinges differ , thou thinkest the trewthe in them to differ likewise , which is not so : for if the trewthe of the resurrection were not the same , but an other then the trewthe of the ascension , it shulde be an other then trewthe : And trewth to be an other then trewthe , I tolde the before can neuer be . For an other then trewth , is no trewth . Wherfore , sith it can not be an other , it muste nedes be the same . And therfore who so euer denieth the trewthe of the one article , denieth therin the trewth of the other . And so ( as I saide ) of all together .

HERE .

Yet is it straunge to me , that one trewthe , whiche hath in it ( as ye saie ) no difference at all , shulde be in bothe th articles , whiche haue a difference .

CATH.

And well spoken , for euen so straunge it is , as the onely truthe of the resurrection , whiche hath no difference , is in all trewe Christen hertis at once , whiche haue a difference , and that of many thousandes mo then we can tell . Therfore wilt thou saie , that the trewth therof , whiche is in one herte , is not the same in eache of the reste , because thei are so many and diuerse ? Dooest thou not knowe , that one thinge maie be comunely knowne of thousandes at once ?

HERE .

Yes that is plaine .

CATH.

And nothynge can bee knowne , but by the trewth therof .

HERE .

I graunte the same .

CAHT.

Then it must nedes folowe , that the same one trewth , maie be in a thousande heades at once . And therfore why not one trewthe , in many articles at once likewise ?

HERE .

Ye but sir , ye muste consider , that althoughe this one trewthe of the resurrection , bee in your heade and mine bothe : yet it is not the trewthe of your head , nor of mine nother , but of an other thynge . And therfore because ( of and in ) are two thinges , whiche maketh no litle difference , I saie , the trewthe of the resurrection , allthoughe it bee in your heade and myne , as it is in many thousandes mo , yet it is not the trewthe of your head or mine , or of anie other beside , but of that same one article only , and of none other . for although the trewth of one thing maie be in an other , yet it can not be the trewth of an other .

Cap. 9. CATH.

In dede thy talke renneth from one thinge to an other , for when our purpose in this case , is no more but to proue the same trewth to be in one arcicle , that is in an other , and so in the rest of them all together , streight thou leapest from the onely being of the trewth , vnto the perteinyng or belonging therof : as thoughe we sought , wherof the trewth shulde be , and not , whether the being therof in diuerse thinges at once , maketh in , or of it selfe , any diuersitee or difference , or no : when that is herein our purpose , and nothing els : vnto the whiche , I adde also this , that trewth , wherin or wherof , so euer it be , is yet no more nor lesse , nor none other , then trewth , without any maner of diuersitee : for it is not but one pure single , simple , & indiuisible thing , of this nature & propertee , that although there be nothing , whiche dooeth not perticipate the same , yet the numerositee or bignesse of thinges , wherin it is , ( be they neuer so many or greate ) can not make it any mo , or more : Nor the paucitee or littelnes of thinges , any fewer , or lesse . Nor yet the diuersitee or alteracion of thinges , any other or otherwise , but euen one and the same trewth stille , as euery where it is , and alway hath bene , and euer shall . Therfore , who so euer denieth a part of that , which hath no partes ( as the trewth it selfe hath not in dede ) other he denieth all the whole , because the very same , which semeth a part , is no lesse but all the whole , or els he denieth therof nothing at all , because that , whiche semeth a parte , is therof no part at all . And suche ( as I saide ) is the trewth of the faith : which althoughe it haue no partes in dede , yet I will not saie , but partes it semeth to haue , & that is onely by reason of the diuersitee of th articles , wherin it is . And not in respect of it selfe , whiche is whole ( as I saide ) in the whole feith , And yet neuer the lesse whole also in euery singular parte therof . And therfore because it is in euery singular article , whiche are diuerse and many , it is thought ( of suche as vnderstande it not ) that it selfe also is diuerse and many likewise : which ( as it dothe by reason apere ) is nothing so . wherfore when that , which an heretike denieth in any parte of the faith , is not nothing , but with out question some what in dede . And when that same some what , can be no part of that , whith hath no partes , it muste nedes folow , that the same , which he denieth , is no lesse then al the whole : And that is none other but only trewth , wherof the whole feith can haue no more , then the least part of it hath : And therfore in that part , which he denieth ; he denieth the whole trewth of all the whole faith : wherof this muste also folow , that all heretikis are deceued , not only in those articles , whiche they directly denie , but also in those , whiche they seme and thinke them selues to graunte , as here after it shall more plainly appere .

Cap. 10. HERE .

Yet I shall saie to the contrary , more then perchance wil like you to here .

CATH.

I care not for that : And therfore spare not , saie what thou wilte .

HERE .

I tolde you before , that the trewthe of one thinge , can not be the trewthe of an other : what saie you to that ?

CATH.

I saie to it this : if thou haddest said as much of the propre being of any thing , wherby it is made not the same that an other thinge is , I wold haue holden well with all . For in dede the propre beeing of one thing , can not be the propre beeing of an other . But to saie , that the trewth of one thing , can not be the trewth of an other , is euen as trewe , as it is to saie , that the name of one thing , can not be the name of an other : when moste manifest and commune experience doeth declare the contrarie .

HER.

I will not denie , but that the name of one thing , maie be the name of an other . As Iohn maie be & is the name of two men , and of many mo : yet in whom it chaunceth so to bee , there is Iohn and Iohn at the least . But Iohn and Iohn can be no lesse than two , & two can be no lesse then one & another : And betwene one & on other , there must nedis be some difference : wherfore , there is a difference , betwene Iohn and Iohn . And euen so likewise there is , betwene the trewth of one thinge , and the treuth of an other . for betwene two articles , if thei be both trew , ther can be no lesse , then trewth and truth : also truth and truth can be no lesse then two : And two ( as I saide ) can be no lesse then one and an other : & betwene one and an other , ther must nedis be a difference . Wherfore ther is a difference betwene the trewthe of one article , and the trewthe of an other : and this is directly ageinst all that ye haue said .

CATH.

yea but yet because all that I haue said , is well proued and fortified by inuincible reason , it is meete to trie , whether all that thou haste saide herein , maie be so proued likewise or not , as I wot it can not : for where thou saiest , that Iohn and Iohn can be no lesse then two : what two meaneste thou ( two men , or two names ? If thou meane two men , it is nothing to the purpose . If thou meane two names , whiche be they ?

HERE .

Iohn and Iohn .

CATH.

and is Iohn and Iohn two names ?

HERE .

it is one and an other .

CATH.

That is false : for Iohn and Thomas , is one and an other , where as Iohn and Iohn , is but one and the same , which differeth muche , from one and an other . For one and an other maketh diuersitee : but one and the same , can neuer passe vnitee . Wherfore as it is betwene Iohn , the name of one man , & Iohn the name of an other : euen so it is likewise , betwene the trewth of one article and the trewth of an other : wherin I graunt there is trewth and trewth , and yet not one and an other ( whiche as I saide maketh diuersitee ) but one and the same , which passeth not vnitee .

HER.

Yet sith ye graunt that there is trewthe and trewth , if there were therin no difference nor diuersitee , what doeth this worde ( and ) betwene them , whiche is a copulatiue and ioigneth two together ?

CATH.

Therin thou muste consider , that this worde ( and ) doth not so couple trewthe and trewthe together , in suche sorte as thou takest it . Forhere , trewth in the seconde place , is but the only repeticion of the same in the first place : and the repeticion of a thynge , in respect that it is a repeticion , doeth alwaie somewhat differ from the thyng it selfe , which is repeted , as it doeth clerely appere by this , that the one maie be without the other : wherfore , this copulatiue ( and ) doth ioigne together truth , and the repeticion of the same , and not trewthe and trewthe , as two sundrie thinges , whiche in dede is but one repeted agein .

HE.

Syr although this be pretily excused , yet when it is saide , ther is trewth in the resurrection and trewth in th ascencion , truth in the seconde place ther , can be no repeticion of the same in the first place : because there is nother relacion , nor yet repeticion of any of them both , but only a demonstracion and a shewyng wherin it is . And yet there , the copulatiue doeth ioigne them together neuer the lesse . Wherfore thei are , and must nedes be of some difference .

CATH.

Thou art yet deceiued . For there , the copulatiue hath respect to th articles , ioignyng them together , in the posession of trewthe , and in the rehersall of the same : And not to the trewthe , whiche in them both is but one in respecte of it selfe . For where it is saide , there is trewthe in the resurrection , and trewthe in th ascencion , doubtles the very same sentence maie as well be saide in these woordes : The resurrection , and th ascencion , haue the trewth in eache of them : wherin it doth well appere , what the copulatiue ioigneth together : And that is not trewthe and trewthe , whiche is all one : But one article and an other , whiche are no lesse then twaine .

HER.

Yet all this doth not satisfie me .

CATH.

That is because thou art perchaunce one of those , that will not bee satisfied .

HERE .

Naie sir I am none of theim .

Cap. 11. CATH.

Then because thou doest wade so farre in the matter , tell me what is the trewthe of a thyng ?

HERE .

I myght therin tell you my fantasie , whiche perchaunce ye wolde not lyke . And therfore I had rather lerne it of you .

CATH.

I thinke thou wilt not denie , but that the trewthe of any thynge , is what so euer maie trewly be saide therof .

HERE .

Then wyll I saie this , that of any thynge it maie trewly be saide , that it is .

CATH.

Thou saiest well therin : And therfore the same at the least , is the trewthe therof . For if the thynge wer not , this coulde neuer be trewe , to saie it is . Wherfore , name thou some certaine thyng , wherin this trewth maie appere .

HERE .

Ye maie name what ye will , although it were but a sticke or a stone , it is enough ( as I thinke ) for the purpose .

CATH.

Then a stone be it , if thou wilt . For of a stone , as of any other thynge , it must nedes be trewe , that it is .

HER.

That is out of question .

CATH.

Therfore if this trewthe of beyng , were not in the stone , wilt thou saie , that the stone coulde bee ?

HERET.

No not so .

CATH.

And is not euen that same trewthe , in , and of an other stone , as well as in , or of , this or that stone , yea and of euery stone beside likewise ?

HER.

In that I will no farder contende .

CATH.

Therfore , why saiest thou , that the trewth of one thynge can not be the trewthe of an other , when this is plaine , that a flint stone is one thynge , and a marbell stone is an other . And yet maiest thou here clerely perceiue and see one trewth , in and of them both : and verifieth the beyng , not onely as well of the one as of the other : but also of all other thynges beside , of what sorte or kynde so euer thei bee .

HER.

Naie then , if it be so , that one trewthe doe ( as who saie ) inhabite all maner of thynges ( as you saie now it doth in dede ) I praie you tell me , how cometh this to passe , that so great peigne , labor , and trauell , hath euer bene , & daily is taken , in counsailes , courtis , scholes , vniuersities , and diuers other waies , for the serche and triall of the trewth ? when ( if your saiyng be trewe ) there is no sorte of men , hauing the vse of reason , but hath it in some kynde of thynges all redy . And therfore what wold thei haue more , or what nede any farder labour for it ?

CATH.

although thei haue it alredie in many thynges . Yet they haue it not therfore in all thynges . Amonge the whiche , it is sone had in some of theim , by experience : And in some of theim , not without some labour , but in some of them , not without a longe and studious diligence , and that specially in diuers cases of lernyng : by reason wherof , ther is oft times had in schooles many great & graue disputacions : and for the fortifiyng of the dewe order of reason therin ( by the whiche the trewthe so trauailed for , must nedes be gotten , or els it wyll not be had ) there are brought in many sundrie and stronge principles and rules , whiche beare in them selfes , suche an ineuitable and manifest trewthe , as no man with reason , can or will denie .

HERE .

Sir I praie you staie there a while . For this will I saie , that if there be amonge all those principles and rules , whiche ye speake of , any diuersitee of trewth , that is to saie , any other trewth in any one of them , then there is in any of the other , or in all to gether : then haue I my purpose . Of the other side , if ther be no diuersitee of trewth among them , but that the same trewth , whiche is in any one of them , is also in eache of the other and in all to gether , then are thei all , ( one except at the most ) but euen vaine and very superfluous : when that same one , hath none other , but the very same and as muche trewthe in it , as hath all the reste beside . And therfore that one were enough and sufficient of it selfe without nede of any moe , but euen of that alone : and yet not of that nother , if it be well weighted . For when that serueth but only to the findyng & obteinyng of the trewth , which is ( as you say , had in the same & some other thyngꝭ all redy , what is it els but as though I might goe seke that thyng in the felde , whiche I am sure of before in my chambre ? And therfore if ther be but one truth , in all and euery thynge that is : & euery man hath the same all redie in one thynge or other : vaine & superfluous are all counsels , courtis , scoles , disputacions , inquisicions , serches & such other industrious indeuers , made for th obteining therof .

Cap. 12. CATH.

Depely reasoned and well fro the purpose : for I haue tolde the already , that although they haue it in some thinges , yet thei haue it not in all thinges .

HERE .

What is that to the purpose ? for when thei haue it all redie , what nede they seeke ( as I saied ) any farder for it ?

CATH.

Now I perceiue it plaine , that litle doest thou consider , how diuersly trewth ( which is not diuerse ) in diuerse thinges behaueth it selfe : for returne thy consideracion but euen to stones ageine , and of the which , thou shalt perceiue in some , the trewth to show it selfe so manifestly , that no man douteth of what sorte or kinde they be . And in some , it kepeth it selfe so priuely , that few men knoweth the verie trewe stone from a counterfeit , except he be a good lapidarie : Also in some other kynde of thinges , it behaueth it selfe , yet so muche more darkely : that it chaunceth to the cource but of fewe men therin to come to it , and yet that not without muche difficultee . And farder , it lieth in diuerse and many cases so secretly , that all the wittes of men , can not atteine to the knowlage therof , excepte it be coniecturally . And yet is it in some of them , for vs , and of vs to be had , most expedient and necessary : And therfore amonge them , where the capacitee of mannes witte dooeth faile , it pleaseth the goodnes of god , that trewe faith , with good zele , shall yet catche holde , and therin much preuaile : And therfore , when this is most plaine , that man hath much more gretter nede of trewth , in some thinges then in some : & ageine , when those thingꝭ wherin he hath most nede therof , are of that sorte , whiche ( as who saie ) kepeth it moste secretly , and fardest from his knowlage and vnderstandinge , howe shulde he therin come by it , but by suche wais & meanes , as are moste mete and conuenient for it ? and what wais and meanes ar those , if wit & trewth be not two of them ? for who , without sufficient capacitee of wit , can therin preuaile or atteine vnto it ? Of the other side , who , without trewth , is able to seeke , and come by trewth ? except thou wilte saie , it may be sought and gotten by falshed , which is not possible : Therfore no man without trewth , is able to seeke and come by trewth , Iohn . 14. specially when these be the wordes of trewth , I am the way , trewth , and life .

Cap. 13. HERE .

The way , trewth , and life , what are those three , to this purpose ?

CATH.

Uery much , if thou marke this well , that the speaker therof , muste nedes bee one of those three at the leaste : for when the speaker doth say ( I am ) and declareth what , that is to say , the waie , trewth , and life , it can not be auoided , but of the three , trewth at the least ( whiche is one of them ) muste nedes be the speaker of it , because it is not possible , for this to be trewly saide of any speaker ( I am the trewth ) but euen onely of trewth it selfe : And therfore , because trewthe saieth also here of it selfe , that it is the way : it muste nedes folowe , that the wey , is the trewth to : for the trewth , could not trewly saie , that it selfe were the way , excepte the waie were the trewth : And yet more ouer , because it saith farder of it selfe , that it is the life , the life also muste nedes be the trewth likewise , although it beareth here ( as the waie doth ) an other name : for the trewthe could not trewly saie , that it selfe were the life , except the life were the trewth . And for so much as there is no way , that tendeth not to an ende , clere it is therfore , that this way , must nedes haue an ende : wherfore , as this way , which is the way of truth , far passeth al maner of waies , euen so it must nedes haue an ende , farre passinge all maner of endes : And because there is no ende comparable to perfitte life without ende . Therfore that same life , must nedis be the ende of this way , and yet not so , as though the same were not also the truth it selfe . for when it is playne , that farder then trewth , trewth can not go . Trewth must nedes be the ende of trewth also , which ( as I said ) is perfit life without ende . wherfore , this I may well conclude and say , that trewth is the way wherin , and trewth is the beginnyng from whence , and treuth is the ende wherunto , for the which cause ( as I suppose ) the propre name of trewthe is there placed in the middes betwene the other two , as who saith indifferente or the same , to and with them bothe . wherfore by this thou maist perceue and see , that these three , ar much to the purpose , which is to show , that the treuth of one thing , is the the very waie , to come by the trewth of an other .

HER.

ye but what nede a man to seke it in one thinge , when he hath it all redie in an other ?

CATH.

Because he hath ( as I saied , and as it is plaine ) not only much more nede of it in one thing , then he hath in an other , but also because , for the straieng , and diuerse behauiour therof , it is therin , more harde to come by , then it is in an other .

HE.

Then sir all this notwithstandinge , if the waie , trewth , Ioan. 14. & life , which are three , be all but euen one trewth , why is it put so diuersly , as though it were otherwise ?

Cap. 14. CATH.

That question will make but a digression nothing to my purpose .

HERE .

yet it shall be somwhat to my purpose for all that , if ye answere it .

CATH.

Then for aunswere take this , thou shalt vnderstand , that trewth , in respect of the propre essenciall and verie being of it selfe , can neither receue either more or lesse , that is to saie , it can neither increase , nor decrease , augment , or diminishe : But yet in respect of the beeing therof in mannes vnderstanding , it maie dooe bothe , as of the one side we maie well and easily perceue it , by the fruictes and profite of that industrie and diligent labour , whiche many bestoweth about the same . For to what intente are children sette to schole ? or to what purpose doeth all studentes labour and traueil in any science ? More ouer , wherfore are all inquisitions and serches made ? but onely to come by the more trewth ?

HERE .

For to come by the more knowlage ye maie saie .

CAT.

Why , what is knowlage without trewth ? specially when this is moste trewe , that nothinge can be knowne , but onely by the trewth therof . for as the power of sight with out light , nothinge can dooe , And therfore , no light , no sight : Euen so the power of knowlage without trewthe likewise can nothing do nother . And therfore no trewth , no knowlage , except thou wilt cal this knowlage , to take one thinge for an other , or any thing to be otherwise then it is , which is in dede but very blinde ignorance , and nothing els : wherfore , who so euer seketh after the knowlage of any thinge , seketh in dede nothinge els , but the trewthe therof , whiche obteined , the thinge is knowne , and otherwise not . Ageine , who so euer seeketh the trewthe of any thinge , hath all readie the trewthe , of some other thinges , or els it were not possible for him to go aboute it , as it maie well appere , by the cause why , that yong infantes are not compelled to schole , or other feates of knowlage , vnto the tyme , their potencial capacite of trewthe , become to some actuall possession therof . Therfore because the deligent industrie and labour of all studentes , of the one side , and also th intencion of all inquisicions and serches , of the other side , dothe plainly proue and declare , that some men alwaie dooe seke after trewth , and that not in vaine , as it doth appere , by that thei do therin more and more increase , and daylie obteine . And agein , because they nother wolde , nor coulde so dooe , if they had not alredie , the trewth of many thinges before , to sette them a worke therin : it must nedes folowe , that trewth in mans vnderstandinge doth , and may dayly grow and increase more and more .

HERE .

And what of all this .

CATH.

I shall tell the what , because this is plaine , that increase can neuer bee , but from the lesse to the more . And agein , for so much , as from the lesse to the more , can be no passage , but by a right conuenient meane and waie betwene them . Therfore is man herin so taught the waie , that there can be no mistrust or any dout therof , when trewth , which can not lie , doeth saie of it selfe , I am the waie . And yet because , ther is lightly no waie , but maie other by the ignorance , or some other imperfection of the straieng trauelar therin , be soone missed and loste , with out a suer guide . Therfore is he taught also , to take none other , but euen the same to be his guide , which hath trewly told him the waie , because there is none , nor none can be to a man , so good and sure a guide in his iourneie , as the trew teacher therof , whiche is also the verie trewthe , as it selfe doeth saie , when it saieth , I am the way . And yet farder more , for so much as ther groweth in a iourneie of long and tedious labour , such a werinesse , as might chaunce to cause the trauelar to feint , slake , and ceasse to continue therin , and so to geue ouer his purpose , excepte ther be some such notable thynge , to be loked for in the ende , as maie well and iustly , so kindle his desyre therof , that for the whiche he setteth all his labour at nothynge : the trauelar therfore in the iourney and labour of this waie , is most trewly instructed , and throughly assured of suche a benefite and commoditee to folowe therof , as is of all thynges moste excellent and in comparable : for what is comparable to perfecte life without ende , whiche aboue all thynges is most desiderable ? And therfore that is the veraie ende , where vnto this waie doothe euer more leade and directely tende : wherof the trauellar ( if he holde on his iourneie and goe thorowe with all ) is moste assured by the promesse of no lesse than the very mouth of trewth it selfe , whiche doothe saie : I am the life . And therfore by this it maie well appere , that in what so euer is rightly doone and well brought to passe , Trewthe is the beginnyng , The ende , and also the weie betwene them : that is to saie , the waie wherin the purpose is folowed : The trewth , wherby it is first set a worke . And the ende , wherunto it is finally brought . And yet all three , no more , no lesse , nor none other , but euen one trewthe : without the whiche , what is the waie ? what is the beginnyng ? or what is the ende of any thynge but all vaine and nothing worthe ? And therfore to shewe , that trewthe is the only perfection of all and eache of them three , it dothe here set furthe and daclare it selfe accordyngly with this triplicite of wordes , Iohn . 14. sayng I am the weie , trewth , and life : as muche to seie , as without me , There is no weie streight , no beginnyng good : nor no ende profitable . Wherfore nowe thou hast herde for answere to thy question ( as I suppose ) a good cause why , that trewth , which is but one , is here so diuersely put , as though it were other wise : Muche more herof there might be seide , but this is enough for the purpose .

Cap. 15. HERE .

Sir I am glad I haue herde yow saie so muche : for ye concluded before , that what so euer is more or lesse then trewthe , can be no trewthe at all . And yet here nowe ye saie , it maie be more and more : as your saiynges therof dooeth plainly declare .

CATH.

Saied I , more and more ?

HERE .

Yea more and more .

CATH.

Wherof ?

HERE .

Of trewthe .

CATH.

That is well saied : And puttest thou no difference betwene more or lesse of trewthe , And more or lesse then trewthe ?

HERE .

What difference shulde I put therin ?

CATH.

Aske thine owne eie , wherby thou maiest lerne it . For by more of light , thou maiest see the better . But by more then light , thou canst see nothynge at all . For what is more then light , but vtterly no light ? and what is no light , but the contrarie , whiche is veraie darkenesse ? And agayne , what is lesse then light , but also euen the same likewise ? therfore more or lesse of light , and more or lesse then light , are two thyngꝭ . For by more then light , light is excluded : but by more of lighte , lighte is but increased . And euen so likewise of trewthe . For by more then trewthe , trewthe is cleane excluded : but by more of trewth , trewth , ( where it maie ) is but increased . For he that telleth the but parte of a trewe tale , dothe tell the lesse of the trewthe , then doothe he , that trewly telleth the , the whole tale : And he that telleth the , the whole tale , doth tell the more of the trewthe , then doth he , that telleth the , but parte of it : and yet both trewe . But if thou perceiue , that he dothe tell the more then the trewthe of the whole : or lesse then the trewthe of any parte : woldest thou not take hym for a lier or a misreporter of the matter ? Yea and that iustely : Because he is no lesse in dede .

HERE .

Then by this , it dothe yet appere , that one article of the feithe maie haue more or lesse of trewthe , then an other hath .

CATH.

No not so nother , for the trewthe is not seied ( as I tolde the before ) to be other more or lesse , for any thynge that is in it selfe , but onely in respecte of and for the numbre of thynges wherin it is , and wherof it is had : Because that same numbre of thynges , wherin it is , and wherof it is had , is in owre knowlage , somtime more , and somtime lesse . And for that cause it is seide to bee more or lesse : and for nothynge els . For when it is seide that a man knoweth more of the trewthe to daie , then be did yesterdaie , it is not properly to be vnderstande and taken , that he knoweth more trewthe , but the truthe of more matter , or of mo thynges to daie then he knewe yesterdaie , and not more of the trewth it selfe , whiche can not be , other more or lesse . And beside this , although more or lesse of trewth maie be seide in respecte of the beyng therof in mannes knowlage , by reason of the comyng and goyng of thingꝭ to and fro , as th experience therof doth declare : yet it can not be so seide in any other kynde of thynges , which haue no suche actiuite or capacite of vnderstandynge or discernynge one thynge from an other , as the priuilege of mannes nature hath . And therfore all this , maketh nothynge for thy purpose .

HERE .

it is no maruell as ye do handell it .

Cap. 16. CATH.

So longe as I handill it acording to truth , there is no faute to be founde therin . And therfore although thou hast driuen it of , very longe : yet it maie this very well appere , that it is nother vaine nor superfluous , that learned men take with theim in their disputacions many rules and principles of trewthe , to conducte eyde and kepe the dewe order of reason , from all deuiacion and errour , vntill it come as it were to the porte and finall conclusion of that , whiche therby is intended : for as a man hauynge a farre longe , and a strange iourney to trauaile , had nede some tyme of sondrie guides , because it maie chaunce one , whiche can conducte hym twentie myles , can not yet guide hym three score , by reason his knowlage of that waie extendeth not so farre , and therfore must nedes be had an other , and perchaunce diuerse moe , after as the case requireth : euen so mans witte and reason , hauynge vrgente occasion , to serche and seeke trewthe , in suche necessary thynges , as kepeth it veraie secret , and farre from his knowlage : hath much nede of certain and sondrie suche guides , as are for that purpose moste conuenient and necessarie , that is to wit , diffinicions , distinctions , respectes , and diuerse other lyke rules of in fallible trewthe , to leade and conueie it directely from one thynge to an other , vntill it come there , where it obteineth , the same it desyreth . And though there bee therin , none other sought nor yet founde , but euen the veraie same trewthe , whiche was had before in many thynges : yet is it not laboured in vayne , nor without neede nother , because it was hidde , and not hadde before in that one thynge , wherein it was perchaunce , more expediente to bee had , then in diuerse and many other thinges beside : Wherfore , when no man can come to trewthe , but by the wey and meane of trewth ( for trewth will in no wise be obteyned or towched , but by the way and meane of it selfe ) why doest thou thinke it so straunge a matter , that men labour therin , so sore for the same which they haue alredy ? that is to saie , for the same trewth in one thinge , whiche they haue alredy in an other , when the trewth of one thing , is the way and meane , to come ( as I sayde ) by the trewth of an other . for otherwise it will not be had . Wherfore now I suppose , thou art in this cace , sufficiently answered .

Cap. 17 HERE .

Sir let that waie as it maie here after , for I dout not but ye will yet graunte me this , that blacke and white , as in ynke and paper are two distincte and contrarie colours .

CATH.

Agreed .

HERE .

Then if there be no more , no lesse , nor none other , but euen the very same trewth in the blacke , that is in the white , and the same in the white , that is in the blacke , why shulde it not be as trewe to saie , the blacke is white , and the white blacke , as it is to say , the blacke is blacke , and the white is white , if there be ( as you say ) but one indifferente trewth of them bothe ?

CATH.

There is no more in dede , but yet because the selfe same one trewth whiche doth verifie the blacke to be blacke , and the white to be white , is also as well in the difference of both those colours , and so doth verifie the same likewise , as it is in eache and both the colours them selues , it doeth therfore vtterle forbid it so to be saide , as thou speakest it . because if thou say the blacke is white , or the white blacke . The trewth of the difference betweue them , is clerely ageinst the , which trewthe is al one , in al three , as it is and must nedes be in all other thinges likewise beside .

HERE .

Then will I leue all these kindes of thingꝭ , and go to the very scripture , which in this cace , is directly ageinst you .

CATH.

How so ?

Cap. 18. HERE :

haue you not redde in the psalter , Psal. 〈◊〉 . wher this is written , Quoniam diminute sunt veritates á filiis hominum ? that is to saie , trewthes , ar minished from the children of men , or trewthes are falen awey from the children of men . Here ye se , it speaketh not of trewth singularly , but of trewthes in the pluraln umber , wherin is conteined many , which can not be without diuersitee , & this is therfore clene ageinst your saieng .

CA.

To this I will first answere the , with the wordis of Saint Austen , and afterward as I can beside . For saint Austen vpon the same text , doth say this , trewth is one , with the which , holy soules are illustrate , but because there be ( he saith ) many soules , in them ther may be said many truthes , as in glasses appereth many images of one face . Here thou maist well perceue , by saint austen , that although ther may be said many truthes , and that by reason , of the diuersite of thingꝭ wherin it is , yet ther is but one trewth for all that . For doest thou not knowe , that as one thinge maie haue diuerse and sondry names , so maie diuerse and sondry thinges haue one name ?

HERE .

As how ?

CATH.

Breade , drinke , fire , water , &c. are eache but one thing , and yet hath eyther of them , almost so manny sondry names , as ther be sondry languages , wherin thei are vsed to be spoken of neuerthelesse the diuersitee of the names , doth not chaunge the vnitee or simplicitee of the thing , nor the vnitee or simplicitee of the thing , the diuersitee of the names . And againe of the other side , thou maist easly finde some wher ( as in some towne or parishe ) twentie men of one name , yet the vnitee of the name , doeth not chaunge the diuersitee of the persons , nor the diuersitee of the persons , the vnitee the name . And euen so is it likewise ( as I tolde the before ) betwene the vnitee or simplicite of trewth , and the diuersite of thinges wherin it is . For as the simplicite of trewth , doth not alter or change , the diuersite of thinges , wherin it is . So the diuersite of thingꝭ , doth not alter or chaunge , the simplisite of the truth which is in them . Therfore truth in how many thingꝭ so euer it be , is yet ( as saint Austen saith ) but one , al though of the commune sort ( for the causes afore said ) it be otherwise taken .

HE.

yea but yet , that commune sort , doth so take it , as the scripture speaketh it .

CATH.

Nay , thou maist say this , that the scripture speaketh it , euen as they do take it . for that the scripture doth so speake it , is not the cause why , they so take it , but that they so take it , is the cause why the scripture doth so speake it . for to whom ( saiest thou ) dothe the scripture speake it ?

HERE .

To whom but to men ?

CATH.

Therfore euen after the commune maner , and capacite of menne it speaketh it , And none other wise . wherin it doth not there teache any pluralitee , nor yet singularite , for it dothe but showe after the maner of mens speaking , what state the children of men are in . And proueth nothinge els . wherfore this text , maketh nothing for thy purpose .

Cap. 19. HERE .

Sir will ye geue me leue to talke my minde a while ?

CATH.

Spare not .

HERE .

Then , if there be ( as you say ) no more , no lesse , nor none other , but euen the very same one single and simple trewth , not onely in all and euery singular article of the faith , but also in all and euery other thing and thinges , what so euer they bee beside , this muste iustly folowe , that who so euer denieth the trewth of any one thing , whether it be of the fayth , or not of the faith , denieth therin no lesse then the trewth of all and euery thing that is . For when you wil haue it nedes followe , that he whiche denieth the trewth of any one article of the fayth , denieth therin the trewth of all the whole , because there is ( ye saie ) no more , no lesse , nor none other trewth in all the whole , then there is in eache and euery parte thereof . It muste nedes folow likewise , that he whiche denieth the trewth of any other maner of thinge , denyeth therin the trewthe , bothe of all the fayth , and also of all other thinges what so euer they be beside . Wherfore sithe there is no man an heretike , but be cause he denieth the trewth of some part of the faith . And ageyne because the very same trewthe whiche he denieth ( if it be as you say ) is in all and euery other thing beside : it muste also neds folowe , that who so euer denyeth the trewthe of any other thing , is also an heretike euen lykewise , as well as he , because he denyeth no more , no lesse , nor none other , but euen the verie same trewth , whiche the heretike dooeth denie . And yet farder , because there is all moste no man , but some tyme he denieth the trewthe of one thynge or an other . Wherin , because they dooe all denie ( by your sayenge ) none other but euen also the same trewth , which an heretike doth denie , howe can this be auoided , but that all other men bee heretikes lykewise , euen as well as he ?

CATH.

And doest thou beleue that to be trewe ?

HERE .

Nay syr , nor no man els I thinke .

CATH.

Howe then ?

HERE .

Marie this , by the manifeste falsitee of this conclusion , I doe perceiue the falsitee of the posicion , wherof it foloweth .

CATH.

Whiche is that ?

HERE .

Euen this that ye sey , trewthe is no more , no lesse , nor none other , in euery singular thynge by it selfe , then it is in theim all , euen hole to gether : whiche ( as ye maie nowe see ) can not be trewe :

CATH.

Arte thou at that poynte ageyn nowe ?

HERE .

who can be otherwise , when it dooeth here so plainly appere ?

Cap. 20. CATH.

Howe so euer thou makest it appere to thy selfe , yet it appereth not so , to any man els , that foloweth reason : for did not I tell the before , that trewth , whiche is but one , and not diuerse , doothe yet diuersely behahaue it selfe in diuerse thynges ? As I declared vnto the , so farre as the case did then require ?

HERE .

What of that ?

CATH.

I shall tell the what : because I see the herein , so curious and insaciable , that thou leuest nothynge vnsought ( so farre as thy wit will serue the ) which maie seme to make for thy purpos , thou shalte yet vnderstande this muche farder , that all maner of thynges ( Wherin the trewthe is ( as aforesaide ) maie be deuided , in to these three sundrie sortes , that is to wit , one contingent and casuall : an other more certayne and naturall : And the thirde diuine and spirituall . And therfore in these three sortes , the trewthe behaueth it selfe so diuersely , that in thynges contingent and casuall , it maie be denied , without any danger or perill at all : as if thou and I shulde nowe contende , whether the turke be at Constantinople or no : if thou sey ye , and I naie , or I ye , and thou naie , the one of vs bothe , denieth the trewthe playne . Also if thou seie the price of graine will not fall , but rise before the yere come aboute : And I seie of the other side , that it will not rise but fall : if it doe either the one or the other , the one of vs bothe denieth the trewthe lykewise : And so in all other thynges of that sorte , what so euer thei be : yet what parell , hurte or daungier canst thou fynde herin ? when trewthe in this kynde of thyngꝭ , behaueth it selfe to all men ( for diuers causes ) so indifferently , that thei maie therin graunte or denie , accordyng to their opinions , and yet not offende therin . Ageine , in thynges whiche are more certeine & naturall , the trewth of as many as are vnknowne , leueth it selfe to the same libertee of iudgement , as it dothe in thynges contingent and casuall : but of the reste , whiche be manifeste and well knowne , the trewthe can not be denied , of suche as dothe knowe them : as by exaumple , who can denie the fyre to be hote ? no man I thinke , excepte he were out of his wit .

HERE .

Yes syr , for a man maie denie the fyre to be hote , if he will , although he knowe the trewthe of it neuer so well .

CATH.

If he wolde so doe : what faute were that seiest thou ?

HERE .

Suche and the same faute , as is the deniall of trewthe ?

CATH.

yea in that thynge thou maiste saie , and in suche other lyke : but not as it is in euery thynge besyde . For the deniall of trewthe in some thynges , is ( as I doubte not , but thou wilt confesse ) no lesse then a damnable faute .

HERE .

That is trewe .

CATH.

And dooest thou thinke it a damnable faute , to denie the fyre to be hote ?

HERE .

No not so .

CATH.

Yet thou thinkest it a more faute , then to denie the trewthe of what price , corne shall be the nexte yere .

HERE .

I muste nedes thinke so .

CATH.

And whie ?

HERE .

Because this deniall is of a thyng certaine , manifest , and directely ageyn the perfite knowlage of the deniar : where as the other is but of a thynge incertaine , contingent , casuall , and to the deniar but coniecturall : wherfore it can not be suche a faute , to denie that I knowe but coniecturally , as it is to denie that I knowe moste perfectely , as I knowe the fire to be hotte .

CATH.

Then , to denie the fyre to be hotte , is worthy more blame , then the other is .

HERE .

It must nedes .

CATH.

And yet thou seist it is not damnable .

HERE .

No.

CATH.

Therfore sith it maie this apere , that trewthe bindeth not lyke nor so , in all thynges , but that ( as thou doest graunt thy selfe ) the deniall therof , in some thynge is damnable , and in some thynges not . And clere it is , that the damnable daunger and dammage therof , consisteth not in thynges contigent and casuall : nor yet in thynges more certain and natural , but only in thinges concernyng our feithe , whiche are diuine and spirituall , how clerely maketh it ageinst this that thou seiest , who so euer denieth the trewthe of any maner of thynge , is as well an heretike as he is , whiche denieth the trewthe of any article of the feithe , because the one denieth no more , no lesse , nor none other , but euen the same trewth , whiche the other dothe ? This ( thou maiest perceiue ) can not folowe . For it is not the deniall of trewthe onely , that maketh an heretike : but it is the deniall therof , in suche or suche a thynge , and that of our feithe onely , and not in euery or any other thynge beside our feithe .

Cap. 21. HERE .

Syr I seid not as ye take it , but I seid this , that so it muste nedes folowe of this your seyng , that there is no more , no lesse , nor none other trewth in any one thyng , then there is in any other , or in the whole multitude of thynges all together .

CATH.

I wolde graunt as muche , and the same my selfe , if trewth behaued it selfe in euery thynge a lyke , as thou diddest thinke , and take it at the firste : but nowe because thou maiest right well perceiue , howe muche thou wer therin deceiued : the trewth therfore beyng ( as I saide ) but euen one in all thynges , dooeth yet behaue it selfe so in th articles of the feithe , that the deniyng therof in any one of them , maketh no lesse than an heretike in dede . And further ageyne , after an other sorte , it behaueth it selfe so , in such certaine and naturall thynges , as be apparent and sensible , that the deniynge therof in some of them , maketh a wilfull and a we●warde foole , but yet no heretike for all that : because there is in it no perell of damnacion . And finally , it behaueth it selfe so , in thinges contingent and casuall , that the deniyng therof in them , maketh little , or no faute at all : and this diuerse behauiour of truth in diuers thynges , is not without reason , and good cause whie . For in the firste case , it committeth it selfe , onely to the perpetuall helthe and welthe of mannes sowle . In the seconde case , to the temporall necessite of this lyfe , and exercise of mannes witte and reason . And in the thirde and laste case , onely to the libertee of mannes opinion : In whiche three , the deniall therof , can not be of one degre but of diuers . And therfore , of so farre vnlyke parell and ieoperdie , as there is difference betwene eternall damnacion , & in some case no penaltee , wherfore it is plaine , that the deniall of trewth , is not hereticall , but wherin it behaueth it selfe , only to the helth and welth of mans soule , and that is not in thinges ( as I sayd ) contingent and casuall . Nor yet in thinges of any cource naturall , but onely in thinges theologicall , that is to saie , in thinges diuine and spirituall . Now therfore , tell me where are all thy sore obiections be cum , which thou hast hitherto made , ageinst the pure inuinsible vnite and simplisitee of trewth ? wherin thou hast caused , a much more wast of time thou neded by a great deale . And al to excuse colour , and hide the most miserable stat of an heretike , which , when thou hast all done , will yet appere , and aske the no leue . For when the articles of the feith , are diuerse and many , And the trewth of them all but one ( as thou maist now perceue thy selfe ) how can this be auoided , but he that denieth the same one , denieth the trewth of them all together ? when they , both eache and all together , haue no more , no lesse , nor none other , but euen the same one , as it is declared and proued vnto the before . For els , how commeth it thus to passe , that the deniall of one article , shuld purchase damnacion , rather then the graunt and confession of all the reste , shulde purchase saluacton ? It semeth much more reason , that the graunte and confession of many , shulde be more able to helpe and succoure , then the deniall of one , shuld hurte and hinder , being ( as they are ) of like and equall power . yet because in this cace , it is farre otherwise then so , tel me why doth one denied , lese more , then all the other graunted , can get or saue ?

HERE .

I wolde knowe that of you .

CATH.

Trewly there is none other whie , but onely because the trewth of them all , is perfite and whole in the same one , which is denied . And therfore the rest can not helpe , in whom , there whole and onely trewth is so refused . and to this it maie well be applied , 1 Corin. 5. whiche t holy apostle Saint Paule doth say , Modicum fermentum to tam massam corrumpit , that is to saie , a litle leuen chaungeth the tast of the whole lumpe of dow . wherof hath risen ( as I suppose ) this olde , and very trewe prouerbe , one vice destroieth many vertues . And why so few as one ? but onely because , the perfection and vnitee of trewth , ( which is not onely , in all vertues whole together , but also in each and euery one vertue by it selfe alone ) is refused and contemned in the committing of any one mortall vice , that chaunceth to fall in man . And therfore because in vices , there is multiplicitee of errour , and contrariwise in vertues , very simplicitee of trewth , when so euer any one vertue is contemned , all the rest can not helpe , because in that one , ther whole perfection and indiuisible trewth , is cleane despised . This the holy scripture dothe well confirme , which doth saie , Iaco. 2. Quicumque totam legem seruauerit , offendat autem in vno factus est omnium reus , that is to say , who so euer doth kepe the whole lawe , and offendeth but in one parte , he is yet made giltie of all together . Now therfore content thy selfe with enough , and take this for an infallible trewth ( as I tolde the before , and now is sufficiently proued ) that who so euer denieth any parte of the faith , denieth therin the trewth of all the whole . And who so euer denieth the trewth of all the whole feith , denieth the trewth of Christ . And who so euer denieth the trewth of Christ , denieth him . And who so euer denieth him , denieth God him selfe . And this ( as I said ) doth euery heretike without faile . Wherfore now , iudge thou thy selfe , in what cace they leade their liues .

Cap. 22. HERE .

Sir herin I must nedes make with you a greate staie before we passe any farder .

CATH.

What yet ageyn ?

HERE .

yea trewly .

CATH.

why so ?

HERE .

Because the Turkes and diuerse other nations , deny Christ , and yet they deny not god .

CATH.

Thinkest thou so ?

HERE .

Ye and so doth euery man .

CAT.

That is not trewe , for so do not I.

HER.

why ?

CATH.

Because I know the contrary , for this can not be auoyded , but who so euer denieth Christ to be the same that he is , denieth him vtterly . And moste trewe it is , that he is very god , wherfore who so euer denieth him denieth god . And euen so doth the turkes .

HERE .

Then how commeth it to passe , that they do otherwise thinke ?

CATH.

What speakest thou here , of a turkish thinking , while we be in matters of our faith whiche they refuse ?

HERE .

Sir I speake it not but because it semeth very repugnant to this your saying , that who so euer denieth Christ denieth God , when the Turkes doeth the one , but not the other , so farre as I perceue .

CATH.

ye there thou saiest well , so farre as thou perceuest . But I and many other , perceue more .

HERE .

That more , wolde I faine here .

CATH.

Then thou muste well marke and consider this , that this worde Christ , doth not properly singnifie , his onely humanite , nor yet his onely diuinitee seuerally or perticularly . But it signifieth indiuidually and indistinctly one proper and singular person made of them both , like as this word , Iohn or Thomas , signifieth properly , nother the flesh , nor yet the soule perticularly . But the very vnitee and singularitee of the person made of them both together , although it be some tyme otherwise vsed , or rather abused , by reason of a certayne maner of speache , which signifieth somtyme the whole by the name of a parte , and contrariwise , some tyme a parte by the name of the whole , but yet neuer so taken properly . And therefore as he , whiche denieth that same person , whiche is properly signified by this worde Iohn or Thomas , denieth not onely the fleshe , but also the soule , nor only the soule , but also the fleshe , and that for the very vnitee of person , wherin they ar knitte , made , and be come both one ( bothe one I sey ) not in , or for any confusion , mutation , or alteration of ther propre natures or substance , but in and for , the very singularite and pure vnite of person . Euen so he whiche denieth that same person , which is properly signified by this worde Christ , denieth not onely his very humanitee , but also his verie diuinitee , nor onely his very diuinitee , but also his very humanitee . And that for the propre vnitee of person , wherin they are knitte , made , and bee come both one , ( bothe one I saie ) not in , or for any confusion , mutacion , or alteration of their propre natures , or substance , but in , and for the very propertee and vnitee of person . Wherfore , when the Turkes denie Christ , they deny both god and also the man . for Christ is none other but euen both together , and for that cause , the one can not be denied , with out the other .

HERE .

Yes sir , for they graunte Christ to be a very manne , but not very God .

Cap. 23. CAT.

Now I perceue , thou dost not euen very wel , vnderstand the matter . for it semeth by thy talke , that thou puttest no difference , betwen the signification of this name ( Iesus ) & the signification of this name Christ when the one ( beside the high and misticall interpretacion therof ) signifieth nothyng els but only the man . And the other , nothyng els , but onely that persone , whiche was made bothe of god and man . For of the name of Iesus , there hath ben diuers : but of the name of Christe , properly neuer but one acordyng to th example therof taught & geuen vnto vs , by th auctoritee of our holy mother the catholike churche : whiche exaumple she daily singeth and seithe , as the reasonable soule and the flesh is one man : so god & man is one Christe : wherfore , as he that graunteth me to be a bodie , and denieth my soule , or graunteth me to be a soule , and denieth my bodie , doth yet bothe waies denie me vtterly to be a veraie man , whiche consisteth onely in the composicion or copulacion of theim bothe to gether . Euen so he , that graunteth Iesus of Nazareth to be a very man , & denieth hym to be very god , or graunteth him to be very god , and denieth him to be very man , dooeth yet bothe the waies denie hym vtterly to be very Christe : whiche consisteth onely , in the composicion or copulacion ( if I maie so call it ) of them bothe together . And therfore , if thou haddest saide this , that the turkes graunteth Iesus of Nazareth to be a very man , but not very god , thou hadst semed to haue said somwhat like to the purpos : but when thou seist thei graunt Christe to be a very man , but not very god , thou reportest them to doe , that is impossible . For it is no more possible , in this woorde Christe , to dooe the one without the other , then it is possible in this woorde man , to denie the soule without the fieshe , or the fleshe without the soule , whiche can neuer be done . For in this woorde man , the deniall of the one , doth alwaie included , the deniall of the other . For no flesshe no man , no soule no man , and lykwise in Christe , no god , no Christe , no man , no Christe . And therfore I saie , as I saide , that all those , whiche denie Christe , denieth god hym selfe .

Cap. 24. HERE .

Yet me thinketh for all this , it dooeth not euen so fully folowe as ye make it for .

CATH.

I praie the tell me why .

HERE .

Because , although the Turkes denie god to bee in Christe , or in Iesus of Nazareth , choose you whether . Yet for all that , it foloweth not , that thei denie god . For it is two thynges to denie god , and to denie hym to be in this , or in that . And therfore when he is not denied to be the same that he is , clere it is , that he is not denied in dede . For a thynge can not be denied , excepte it be denied to be the same that it is .

CATH.

Yea but I sey this , that they denie god to be the same that he is . For when thei denie hym to be ioyned in the vnitee of persone with Iesus of Nazareth , what do thei els , but euen denie Christ at the least , whan they will none of that , whiche is Christe in dede ? & when they ( as they doe ) vtterlie denie Christe , what doe they els , but clerelie denie hym to bee the veraie same that he is ? Therfore what is the same that he is ? wilt thou , or any trewe christen man answere and sey any other , but very god and man ? wherfore , when he is bothe the one and the other , what thynge is it , that ioigneth them both so to gether , but euen the veray vnitee of person , whiche is proprely signified by this worde Christe ? And therfore when thei denie Christe , what doe thei els , but clerely denie both ? & when thei denie both , may we not iustly ley to their charges , the very deniall of which we list ? wherfore trew it is ( as I said before ) that thei denie god for al this .

Cap. 25. HHERE.

I will not saie so , for any thynge that I haue yet herde hitherto .

CATH.

what wilt thou saie then ?

HERE .

I will sey this , that they denie nether of them bothe , that is to saie nother god nor the man nother , but onely any suche vnitee of person , as is made of them both .

CATH.

Euen as I might say , I nother denie thy sowle nor yet thy bodie , but euen onely , any suche vnitee of person , as is made of them bothe . Wherin , what doe I denie , when I denie that but vtterly this , that thou art a man ? For what is a man , but euen one whole complet person aduned and made of a bodie and a reasonable sowle ? therfore , when I denie the vnitee therof , I denie the whole complete person . And when I denie the whole complet person , whiche thou art what is by nature in the , that I denie not ? for whan I denie in the , no lesse then the whole : is there any parte of it lefte , that is vndenied ? for the deniall of the whole , dooeth euer more clerely exclude th excepcion of any parte or partes therof : wherfore when the deniall of the whole , doth alwaie include the deniall of all the partes . Clere it is , that the deniall of all the partes , must nedes folowe and be agreable to the deniall of the whole , wherupon it dependeth . Therfore when the deniall of the whole , tendeth vtterly to the not beyng therof : the deniall of the partes which are included therin , must of necessitee tende to the same , that is to saie to the not beynge of them all lykewise : excepte thou wilt saie , that a man maie denie the whole tree : and denie not the barke or the bowes therof , or denie the whole apple , and denie not the coore or the kernell therof : wherfore herein thou makest but a mere cauilacion , nothyng to the purpose .

Cap. 26. HERE .

Yet I will not so geue it ouer : for suppose , that yesterdaie , there died a man , whose bodie is yet vnburied : may not I therfore nowe , denie the vnitee of his person , who is clerely dissolued and clene gone , and yet not therin denie his bodie nor his soule nother , which were the partes therof , & now remaine a sonder .

CATH.

Yes well enough .

HERE .

Why than say you the contrary of the Turkes , whiche denie but onely the vnite of Christes person , wherin ye saie they also denie both god and the man , whiche are the partes therof .

CATH.

So I sey still , and not without cause .

HERE .

That cause wolde I faine here ?

CATH.

Then marke this , their deniall and thine in this case , doth include two contraries . For thy deniall runneth no farder then vpon the vnite of a person , whiche is dissoliued dede & gone . And therfore it must nedes be trewe : But their deniall runneth vpon the vnite of a person , which both is , & euer shall be . And therfore it muste nedes be false . Also the partes of that which thou deniest , are clene vntouched and not denied , by reason that thy deniall extendeth no farder , then to the not beyng of the vnite . wherof , although thei wer the partes , yet so they are not nowe . For they can not be the partes of that , whiche hath no beyng , and therefore in that they can not be denied . But the partes of that , whiche they denie , are denied in dede . Because their deniall extendeth , nor to the not beynge , but to the very beyng of the vnitee , wherein and whereof they are nowe the partes and euer shall bee . And therfore thou muste consider , that it is two thynges to denie the beyng of that whiche is : and to denie the beynge of that whiche is not . Thou deniest no more but the vnitee whiche is not . And they denie the vnitee , whiche bothe is and euer shall be , which can not be denied ( as I toulde the before ) without the de-deniall of what so euer is conteined therin , And that is both god and man . And therfore thine example in this case will not serue , because it is nothing lyke .

HERE .

Yet if all this , be as ye saie , I maruell why the turkes do not perceue it . for I thinke they be men of as great wittis as we be , and haue amonge them learnyng also .

CAT :

Thou shuldest nothing maruell therat , if thou didest wel consider , these wordis , ( after some translacion ) of the holy prophet Isai , Isai. 7. Nisi credideritis , non intelligetis , that is to say , Except ye beleue , ye shall not vnderstand . Wherfore , their infidelitee is the cause of their blindnes , which is suche and so great , as driueth them , to graunt the same , that they deny , & to deny the same that they graunt . And yet see it not nother , as the same holy prophet doeth say , Isai. 6. they see and see not , they here and vnderstande not .

HERE .

Ye but how dooe they graunte the same they denie . And denie the same they graunte ?

CATH.

I haue tolde the so much alredy , if thou be remembred : For when they graunte Iesus of Nazareth to be but a very man and no more , they denie the same ageine , when they denie Christ , because Christ is not only the same but also imcomparable more . Ageyn when they graunt god to be very god , and no lesse , they denie the same agein , when they denie Christ , because Christ is the very same , and also muche lesse , Isai. 8. as of him the prophet to god doth say , Minuisti eum paulominus ab angelis , That is to saie : thou hast made him some what lesse then angels . And therefore when in him they denie , both the more , whiche is god , and also the lesse which is man , what dooe they els , but of both sides , denie in dede , the verie same , which they wene and seme to graunt , that is to say , euen all to gether . Wherfore let this be sufficient ( as it is in dede ) to repell thy great stay , made agein this that I sayd before , whosoeuer denieth Christ , denieth god , which saieng is most trew , as it is now sufficiently proued . And therfore who so euer denieth god , although he do it not with his tong , yet at the least he doth it in his hart . And so with out faile doth euery heretike , in whom , ( as I sayd before ) these wordes of the prophet , the folyshe man sayd in his hart , there is no god , are well and iustly verified . Psal. 13. Wherfore thou hast now , by this much , a farder occasion , wherby thou maist the better perceue and see , what maner of state it is , wherin euery heretike leadeth his life .

Cap. 27. HERE .

Yet sir when ye haue all doone , because the effect of your conclusion is this , that there is no heretyke , but he denieth the trewth of all the whole faith , and therfore of Christ and god hym selfe also . How therfore ( I pray you ) maie this agree with all , ( which is not vnknowne ) that all heretikes doth both holde and confesse , diuerse and many articles of the faith , as ernestly , and as vehemently as any other man can , seyng and also thinking them selues , as verely to beleue them , as any men dooe , yea and wolde suffre death therin , rather then denie them .

CATH.

Suffer death ? nay softe , therin thou goest to farre , for thou art not able to defende that seying , by any authenticall writing , reason , or example .

HERE .

Yes sir by example , for ye can not denie your selfe , but many haue willingly suffered death , for the trewth of diuerse poyntes of the feyth .

CATH.

Yea but what many were those I pray the ? any heretikes trowest thou ?

HERE .

why not ?

CA.

No trewly , for is there any deth so pretious and profitable , that maie come to man , as to die for the trewth of any parte of the faith ?

HER.

I thinke not .

CATH.

Therfore when it chaunseth any man to suffer deth for that cause , is it to be thought to cum of the man him selfe , or els of the great grace and gift of god ?

HERE .

when all that is good , cummeth of god , that must nedes be ascribed vnto him also .

CATH.

Thou sayest wel therin , Psal. 115. And therfore : when this is written , Presiosa in conspectu domini , mors sanctorum eius , that is to saie , in the sight of god precious is the death of his sainctes . And when no deth amonge them is so precious , as to dy for the trewth of the faith ( in so much , that the gifte therof , is not geuen to all those , whiche holdeth the trewth of the whole faith , nor yet , but to fewe of them nother in comparison ) wilt thou thinke , that euer any heretike , which hath directly forsaken ( at the leaste ) some parte of the faithe , other dyd or shall obteyne that gifte ? sithe so many of them goeth with out it , whiche cleueth to the whole fayth all together . Beside this , wh eneuery heretyke , whiche forsaketh directly ( as I saied ) some parte of the saythe , doth it freely , of his owne wilfull mynde , with out any coaction or compulsion at all . will any man thinke , that he wolde sticke at the deniall of any other parte therof , if he were constrayned vnto it , with no lesse then the feare and payne of death ? Specially when t holy gospell doth saie Qui in modico iniquus est , Luc. 13. et in maiori iniquus est , he that is ( he seyeth ) vniust in litle , is also vniuste in more ? for he that wolde denie the , of one grote of thy duetie , with out any prouocation of nede , I thynke wolde not stycke , soone to denie the of twentie , yf he felt any neede pricke hym ther unto . Therfore , neuer sai or thinke that an heretik , which hath with out compultion , forsaken and directly denied , some parte of the fayth all redy , wold suffre deth , for any other parte therof , when the most part of those ( as I seid ) which hath & holdeth the whole faith altogether , shall not reach or attene to that gift of most precious deth , which is not geuen ( as I said ) but to few in comparison . And yet those , in whom ther is the confession of the whole fayth , ( thou maist wel know ) must nedes be nere it , then those , in whom there is the deniall of parte . extepte thou wilte make betwene them this difference , that in the one there is some possibilite thereof , and in the other none at all .

HERE .

why sir , yet I haue harde say , that there haue bene diuerse heretikes , whiche hath suffered death for some parte of the fayth .

CATH.

Yea but how ?

HE.

How say you ?

CATH.

In very dede as a thefe , when he is hanged , doeth suffre deathe , for some parte of the commune welth .

HERE .

That is a proper similitude .

CATH.

Most meete for the purpose that I can finde .

HERE .

Why sir , a theefe is not hanged , but for that he doeth steale

CATHO .

Thou arte therein deceued . for if he steale , money , horse , kyne , sheepe , or suche other lyke , because his lyfe is muche better then any of those thinges , it were therfore no Iustice nor equitee , but rather very crudelitee to take his lyfe a way for any of them , when that punishmente so farre excedeth the value of that he stole . And therefore he is not hanged for any suche thinges .

HERE .

Wherfore then ?

CATH.

Because he and all suche , are so iniurious and hurtfull to the commune welthe , that if they shulde lyue and continewe , it shulde by them , so decaie , and be trodden vnder the foote , that no manne shulde be able to kepe that he hathe , and to liue one by an other , excepte it were such as coulde and wolde , plaie ( as they saie ) catche that catche maie . And therfore thei be not hanged , but for the commune welthe . And yet not because thei make with it , but because thei make so sore , and all that thei can directly ageinst it . And euen so likewise , I will not seie naie , but many heretikes haue suffered deathe for some parte of the feithe . Not because thei helde with it , but because they went from it , and held extremely ageinst it . And muche more mischiefe therin wolde haue done to it , if thei had not bene therin , by such worthy dethe , preuented : And therfore any other dethe of an heretike , for the trewthe of the feyth then this , thou shalt neuer be able to proue .

Cap. 28. HERE .

Syr herein ye haue saide your conceite : but how sey you to my question ?

CATH.

What is that ?

HERE .

Haue ye so soone forgotten , that vpon yur conclusion , that all heretikes dooeth denie the trewth of the whole feithe , I asked you , how might that agree with this , that all they holde and manifestly confesse so many articles therof as thei doe ? seiyng and also thinkyng them selfes therin as verely to beleue them , as any men can do ?

CATH.

I maruell greatly that thou wilt haue ( in this case ) any maner of respecte to their seyng or thinkyng other , ageinste so manifeste & inuincible reason as I haue therin shewed the. For in this , be thou nowe iudge thy selfe : doe they , other saie or thinke them selfes any more suer of the trewthe in any pointe , then thei saie and thinke thei bee suer in the very same , wherin thei doe directly erre in dede ? howe ernestly doe they thynke , that thei be not therin deceiued ? shall we thinke so to , because of that ? Those whiche did murder and sleie th appostles ( as our sauiour hym selfe did prophecie ) thought thei did therin great seruice to god . Iohn . 16. But yet for all their thinkyng , was it as thei thought ? or did their thinkyng excuse their faute , because thei thought it was none ? Therfore why speakest thou to me of an heretikes thinkyng ? when it is not possible for hym to thinke that , which were of all thingꝭ most expedient for him to thinke . That is to saie , that hym selfe is an heretike : what thyng might he thinke more trewly : and yet he is not able so to do . Therfore neuer let his seiyng or thinkyng , what so euer it be , stande in thy weie , betwene the and ineuitable reason : wherof in this case thou haste harde enough .

HERE .

In dede I wolde not so muche passe vpon that , as I dooe : if it were not more for other mens thinkyng , then for theirs , whiche are no heretikes in dede . For many of them , yea and that the moste parte , dooeth vtterly beleue and thinke , that no heretike doth denie the trewthe of the whole feithe , nor yet any more of it nother , but euen onely of thos poyntes , wherin he doth directly erre , and differ from other faithfull people .

CATH.

I pray the who be they that so thinke ? any other but suche as are not able to discerne and vnderstande the thynge ? or any other but suche , as iudgeth more by coniecture , then by any dewe order of reason , wherof little skyll they can ? farre a sonder it is , to iudge thynges as they seme , and to iudge them , as thei bee in dede : whiche very fewe in respecte can doe : specially when the matters be somwhat darke , as they be in this case . And therfore , what is the iudgement or opinion of suche , to be pondered herein ?

Cap. 29. HERE .

Syr wyll ye beleue me ?

CATH.

What is the matter ?

HERE .

In very dede , I my selfe can not yet thinke , that an heretike doth denie the trewth of those articles , whiche he doth so manifestly graunt and confesse . And more ouer vtterly beleue and thinke therin as he saithe .

CATH.

What not yet ?

HERE .

No trewly .

CATH.

Than we must haue a farder talke , then I thought we shulde nede . For nowe I wot what thou doest lacke herein well enough .

HERE .

What ?

CATH.

Thou doest not consider ( I perceiue ) any diversitee of denials : but as though there were no mo but euen bare one , when there is one directe , whiche is so comune and also playne , as can gender do doubte therof : And an other , indirecte or consequent , which is more obscure darke and secrete . and therfore not so easie to be perceiued . By reason wherof , a thynge maie sometyme seme to be graunted , when it is neuer the lesse denied : as it is nowe in this case . And more plainly doth apere , in that I said vnto the before of the Turkes : who ( as thou saiest ) doth graunt god , but how ? none otherwise but directly , deniyng the same ageyn consequently : as thei do , when thei denie Christ , whiche maketh their graunt nothyng worth . For a directe graunt , can neuer stande with a consequent denial , which plucketh awai the trewth and perfection , of what so euer is graunted before .

HERE .

I thought all this while , that there was some subtiltee in this deniall , whiche ye haue so longe spoken of , or els it were not possible , for that ye haue said to be trew .

CATH.

If thou call that , which is very consequent , but a subtilte , thou shalt yet finde it a subtiltee of such a sorte , as wherin , all heretikes deceiue not onely them selfes , but also as many as folow them .

HERE .

That deceite maketh but a small faute , so longe as their deniall renneth not agayne the thynge directely .

CATH.

So thou woldest haue it taken : but thou shalte finde it farre otherwise for all that : wherfore , although it will make some digression before we come to the very solucion of thy question , yet to see the trewthe hereof , wilt thou call that but a small faute , whiche the holy prophet dooeth note in hym , that seith in his herte , there is no god ?

HERE .

No mary syr , Psal 13. for I thynke there can be no greatter faute then that , because he that so dooeth denieth hym directly , and not consequentely .

CATHOLI .

howe knowest thou that ?

HERE .

Uery well . for he that seithe in his herte there is no god , can neuer denie a thynge more directly , then he denieth that .

CATH.

If thou say so , tell me howe doth he , saie that in his herte ?

HER.

He saith it , with the worde of his thought , which is conceued within , although it come not out with the voice .

CATH.

What is that worde of his thought .

HERE .

What so euer he thinketh to be so or not so .

CATH.

How many shall we finde , that doth with that woorde , euen sey in the herte , there is no god ?

HER.

First how many so euer there be , that so seith in the herte , I thinke there be none of them , that dare & will so saie with his mowth , or yet so writ with his pen . And therfore when the worde of thought alone , is not open , but only to him , in whom it is : how shuld we finde any such , although there were many , as I thinke there be not ?

CATH.

Dooest thou not thinke there be many of them .

HERE .

No trewly .

CATH.

Why so .

HERE .

Because the prophet speaketh it , but of one person singularly . For he doth not sey , ( the folishe men ) but the folishe man saide in his herte , there is no god .

CATH.

Thou maiest not take it so , for the prophet perceuing a multitude wrapped in this horrible and abhominable blindnesse , doth here touch and open the venemous cursidnes of all the whole sort , in the person of one of them , as it may well appere by his owne wordis immediately folowing , whiche are these . Corrupti sunt et abhominabiles facti sunt in studiis suis . Psal 13. They are ( he saith ) corrupted , and become abhominable in ther fancis . This he saieth ( as thou hierest ) not of one , but of many , That is to wit , of the whole sort , whose most pestilent wickednes , he towcheth before , ( as I sayd ) in the person of one of them . Wherfore thou maist not take it , that he meaneth it of one person alone , or of few mo , but in dede of very many . And now therfore to the purpose ageine , whether this folish fellow , which denieth god in his hart , denieth him directly or no.

HERE .

There is no doubt of that , as I showed you before .

CATH.

Ye but yet thou muste make me a better proffe therof then so .

HERE .

Then my proffe shal be this , when he saieth in his hert , there is no god , and the same sayeng in his hert , is none other , but in his hert so to thinke , And because no man can thinke any thinge in his hert to be so , or not so , but euen directly , it muste nedes followe , that this folish felowe in his hert denieth god directly .

CATH.

That foloweth not , for where thou sayest , that no man can thinke in his herte , any thing to be so , or not so , but euen directly , that I deny . For it is not trewe , except thou adde vnto it this condicion , if he be ware of it .

HERE .

Why , is it possible for any man to thinke , that he him selfe is not ware of ?

CATH.

why not , as well as to speake , that he hym selfe is not ware of ? for hast thou not some tyme harde this report of a man , that he spake he wist nere what ? and yet neither madde , dronke , nor an Ideot nother , And why therfore , maie not a man thinke , he wot nere what as wel as so to speake ? when so speaking can not procede but of so thinking ?

HERE .

yea but yet , when a man doeth so speake , it is not saide he speaketh he wot nere what , because he is not ware what he sayth , but because he is not ware what of necessitee foloweth of his seying . For of his saying it selfe , he is ware what it is well enough , or els he coulde not repete the same againe , which ye knowe he can do , although he be not ware what must folowe therof : for that is it , for the whiche it is saide , he speaketh he wotteth nere what , and for nothinge els .

CATH.

Let it so be . And yet , what so euer doth so folowe , that same both is , and must nedes be , conteyned in his saying , or els it coulde by no meanes folow therof .

HERE .

That I graunt .

CATH.

Then take euen the same of his thinking , because the reason and trewth therof is all one , for as he is ware of his saying directly , and yet is ignorant and vnware therof consequently , That is to wit , as he woteth what he sayth , and woteth not what dothe folow therof , which is conteyned therin , Euen so it is of his thinking likewise . for both saying and thinkinge haue in them commonly , a duble vnderstanding , one direct , and on other consequent . And therfore when the name or reporte of saying or thinking , procedeth and is taken very ofte , as well of that vnderstanding which is but consequent , as of that whiche is direct , what hast thou more to proue , that this folishe fellowe which saieth in his hart ther is no god , denieth him in his hart directly , rather then consequently ? for all this that thou haste hitherto seyde will not serue .

Cap. 30. HER.

I haue this of the prophet to proue it by , that he seyth in his hart , ther is no god .

CATH.

ye but yet , when this same saying in his hart , is ( as afore sayd ) the very thynking in his mynd , and the same thinking hauinge in it as it hathe , not onley a directe sence , but also a consequente , whether dothe the prophette meane it of the directe sence , or els of the sence consequete ? for therin dothe lie all the doubt : because the saying of the prophette behaueth it selfe indifferentlie vnto them both .

HERE .

Syr the prophet muste nedes meane it of the direct sence of his thinkynge onely , as it may well appere by these wordes , which he speaketh also of hym , so playnly in an other place , seying , Non est deus inconspectu eius , Psal. 9. There is ( he sayth no god in his sight . And because the prophet doth here not meane the sight of the outward eye of the bodie , but the sight of the inwarde eye of the mynde , wherby , a man dothe directly thinke , what so euer he taketh to be so , or not so , it must nedes followe that the prophet meaneth it of that sence of his thinking , wherin he thinketh directly , what so euer he dothe thinke . For if he hadde in that sence of his thinkinge , that there were a god : doubtlesse the prophette wolde not haue sayde of hym this , that there is no god in his sight , whiche is as much to say , as there is no god in his meaning , or so farre as he doth directly thinke , wherfore clere it is , that he denieth god in his hart directly .

CATHO .

That foloweth not , for thou muste consider , what the prophette saythe also of hym , but a litle after in the same psalme , Psal. 9. which thou doest allege , wherin his wordes be these , Dixit in corde suo oblitus est deus , auertit fuciam suam ne videat in finem , that is to say , he sayde in his hart , god hath for gotten , he turneth away his face , and will neuer see it . Also a litle after that , the prophet inueieth farder against him , with this question , Propter quid irritauit impius deum ? dixit enim in corde suo non requiret , whiche is this muche to say , why dothe the taityfe attempt or prouoke god ? for he sayth in his hart , he will not looke vpon it . Now by these wordes of the prophet , thou maiste perceue ageyne , that he meaneth it not of this felowes deniall in his herte directly , but of his deniall consequentlie . for if the foolishe fellowe hadde thoughte in his herte there hadde bene no god directly in deede , hee wolde not haue saide in his hart , that god hath forgotten , and that he turneth awaie his face and will neuer looke vpon it . For that which is not , can do none of all those thinges or any other lyke . Therfore he did not saie in his hart directly , ther is no god , but yet he saide it consequently , that is to saie , he conceiued ( as euery heretyke doeth ) suche thingꝭ in his hart directlie , wherof it muste nedes folowe , that there is no god consequentlie . Wherfore , so doth the prophet meane , and none otherwise .

HER.

Syr herein ye be deceued , for this is not that foolishe fellow , which the prophette spake of before . But in very deede , it is an other , as it appereth plaine by the prophetis wordis , whiche doth clerely show , that the one doth say in his hart , there is no god , and the other the contrary .

CATH.

That is not trew , for the contrary is to say in his harte , there is a god , but he sayth not so , for in his harte he sayeth no more but that god hath forgotten , and will neuer looke vpon it , which is as muthe to saie as this , that god is not iust . As he were not , if he wold other forget , or neuer looke vpon the punishemente of iniquitee . And therfore the prophet doth say , there is no god in his sight , because he seeth no iustice in god : whereof ( if there were none , as he iudgeth in his herte ) it must nedes folowe , that there were no god in dede : as there is not in the consequence of that he saithe in his herte . Wherfore this place of the prophet doth but expounde and declare the other .

HERE .

No syr not so , for the consequent deniall of god , is discribed in this place , whiche you do here nowe allege . And the directe deniall of god , in the other two places alleged before .

CATH.

Let it so be : I wyll not greatly sticke with the therein , sith the descripcions of them bothe be suche , as declareth the consequent deniall , to be at the least , as euill as the other is .

HERE .

That I denie againe . For the scripture : of as many as be of his sorte , whiche saithe in his herte , there is no god , dooeth plainly saie , they are corrupte , and become abhominable in their fantasies .

CATH.

Then take this with all , Psal. 13. that of as many as be of his sorte , in whose sight ( as the scripture doe saie ) there is no god , it saith also , their waies are euer more , Psal. 9. filthy , polluted , or corrupted : and what maketh any sorte abhominable , but onely suche waies ?

HERE .

Yea but the scripture in bothe those places , dooeth speake onely of them , whiche denieth god directely , and not of them , whiche bee of his sorte , that saith in his herte , Psal. 9. god hath forgotten . &c. And therin denieth hym not , but consequently .

CATH.

What if I graunte the same ? yet thou must marke as well what it saith also of that sorte , as of the other before , although they denie hym not ( as thou saiest ) but consequently .

HERE .

What is that ?

CATH.

These be the wordes , Epurge domine deus , Psal. 9. & exaltetur manus tua , ne obliuiscaris pauperum . O lorde god ( he crieth ) arise , and lyfte vp thy hande , and forget not the poore .

HERE .

What is this to them ?

CATH.

More ( I maie tell the ) then all that is alleged before , is to the other . For the prophet knowyng the cursed iniquitee of these that denieth god but consequently to be suche , and so muche more gretter then could be expressed with any direct , proper or speciall wordes , was compelled to declare it , with onely exclamacion ageine them to god , for lacke of any other sufficient waie or meane to expresse it by .

HERE .

Then , if the prophet so ment it agein them as ye saie , why doth he adde vnto it this , forget not the poore ?

CATH.

Because these are , to the poore , the greattest perill and pestilent plage , that euer was or is possible to come amonge them . In so muche , that if god wolde permitte and suffre them to continewe , thei wolde not faile , if it were possible to de●●roy and deuoure them all : Math. 24. And therfore the prophet doth exclame and crie vnto god , to lifte vp his hande to ouerthrowe theim , that the poore might escape their mischeuous indeuor , and wicked purpose .

HER.

whiche poore are thei ?

CATH.

The poore in lernyng , the poore in knowlage , vnderstandyng , & iudgement , specially of diuine misteries . The poore also in their owne conceite : the poore in spirite , of whom it is written , beati pauperes spiritu , Math. ● . blessed are the poore in spirite : so poore , as knowth nothyng of their own , remembryng alwaie these woordes of th apostle , 1. Cor. 4. quid habes ꝙ non accepisti ? what hast thou ( he seith ) that thou hast not receiued ? & therfore so poore , as causeth them , neuer to cesse beggyng & crauyng of god , in whom ( thei know ) consisteth all the whole helpe & succour of their pouerte : wherin , dwelleth such a number , and so many , as moueth the holy prophet of veri pitee , to exclame ( as I said ) and crie vnto god , for their defence and deliuerance , ( among all other ) from these , most specially , which denieth not god , but consequently . For of the other , this poore , can muche better beware then thei can of these , for the secret behauour of their mischiefe , whiche is muche more open in the other , and therfore lesse perelous . wherfore , thus it maie well apere , that to denie god but consequently , is at the least no lesse euill then it is to denie him directly .

HERE .

Syr I wyll omit , for a while , what so euer I haue more to saie herein to the contrary . And in the meane tyme I wold yet be answered to this my question , how it may be ( as you saie it is ) that an heretike doth denie the trewth of those articles , whiche he doth so directly graunt & confesse , ye and more ouer , vtterly beleue and thinke therin as he saith .

CATH.

hast thou not forgotten that yet .

HERE .

No mary syr , for there hath ben nothynge hitherto that maketh more ageinst the pith of your purpos , them that doth .

Cap. 31. CATH.

Then for the solucion therof , thou canst not saie naie , but nowe thou seest a manifeste difference of these two denials , wherof the one is directe , and the other consequent .

HERE .

All that I perceiue well enough .

CATH.

Therfore if thou beare that well in minde , thou shalt se thy doubte therby , clene put awaie . For whan an heretike denieth the trewth of some parte of the faithe directely , and the same trewthe ( as it is proued before ) is no more , no lesse , or none other in any parte therof or in all together , then it is in the same parte whiche he doth directely denie , this muste nedes folowe , that he denieth the trewthe of all the reste consequently .

HERE .

Syr then for example , take th ascencion , for one of the articles , whiche an heretike dothe directly graunte and confesse .

CATH.

Contente .

HERE .

Therfore when he doth graunt and confesse the assencion directely , ye wyll not denie but that he doth graunt and confesse the trewth therof .

CATH.

Yea but how ?

HERE .

Mary directly .

CATH.

yea and yet the same trewth I say , he denieth consequently for all that : because he denieth it , in some other article directly , for els he were no heretike at all .

HERE .

Then he dooeth graunte and denie one thynge bothe at once .

CATH.

Yea , directly and consequently ?

HERE .

Howe can that be ?

CATH.

In dede very sildom in a iust man , I maie saie to the.

HER.

In whom then ?

CATH.

In an heretyke veray communely .

HERE .

How so ?

CATH.

Because the articles of the faithe be diuerse and many : And the trewthe of them all , but one .

HERE .

What is that to this purpose ?

CATH.

not nothyng , if thou consider a difference betwene them , and the trewthe that is in them .

HERE .

Wherby shuld I consider a difference betwene them , and the trewthe that is in them , when there is no article , that can be without trewth ?

CATH.

Yet thou maiest well consider it by this , that if there were not a difference , betwene euery article of the faithe , and the trewthe whiche is in eache of them , there shuld be other so many diuerse trewthes , as there be articles , ( which are many in dede ) or els so fewe articles , as there be trewthes , which is but one . wherfore this well considered , it maie sone appere how an heretike doth graunt and deny one thynge both at once . That is to saie , graunt it directly , and denie it consequently , as he doth in what so euer article he doth graunt : & that thou maist the better perceiue it , suppose an heretike , which graunteth the passion of Christe , & denieth his resurreccion , as some of them did in time paste .

HERE .

Agreede .

CATH.

Then when he graunteth the trewth of the passion directly , doth he not denie the very same trewth consequently , in that he denieth it in the resurrection directly ? for when both those articles ( as al the rest ) haue but one very simple and single trewthe , which is in each of them , how can the same trewthe bee denied in the one article directly , but that it muste therfore be also denied , as well in the other consequently ? as in cace , if thou were now in diuerse places at once , as the trewth is in diuerse articles , how coulde I denie the , in this place to be a man , but that I must therin , denie the to be the same , as well in all other places , where so euer thou arte beside ? how be it , in this place directly , and by reason of that , in all other places , consequently . For the direct deniall of a thing to be the same that it is , muste nedes folowe the thing , whersoeuer it be . For one thing denied and not denied both at once , in respect of it selfe , can neuer be . And therfore no more can trewth , whiche is but one .

HE.

Sir yet as I do now perceue , in respect of the two sondry articles wherin it is , it may bee .

CA.

Ye but not in both directly , for thou must yet farder consider that this direct denial , runneth not onely , to wher or wherin , but also to what the thing is , which is in , for it is two thingꝭ to denie wherin a thinge is , and to deny , what the thinge is , as if I denie thy soule to be in thy hand , yet it foloweth not , that I denie it to be in thy foote , or in any other member of thy body beside , because that deniall runneth not , but onely to where or wherin it is , but if I take occasion of thy hand to denie thy soule whiche is in it . And therin deny it directly to be the same that it is ( as euery heretike taketh occasion of one article or other to deny the trewth that is in it , and therin denieth it to bee the same that it is ) it must therfore nedes folowe , that I denie thy soule , where , or wherin so euer it be , that is to say , as well in thy foote as in thy hande , and in euery other parte of thy body also , because that deniall renneth not only ( as I sayd ) to where or wherin , but also directly to what thy soul is , whiche is as well in euery sensible parte of thy body , as in thy hand , and all one . And therfore , although it be not directly denied , but in that parte onely , wherin the occasion therof is taken , yet is it also consequetly denied , wher so euer it is beside . Wherfore euen suche is an heretikes deniall of the trewth , in what parte of the fayth so euer he denieth it , for his deniall renneth not onely to where or wherin the trewth is , but also directly , to the trewth it felfe . For that same trewthe he houldeth directly to be no trewth at all , which onely maketh hym an heretike . And therfore that same only trewth , once directly denied , can not be but denied ( as I sayd ) where , or wherin so euer it be . How be it , directly in that parte , wherin the occasion therof is taken , and consequently in all and euery other parte wherin so euer it is beside . Wherfore denied ( as I saide ) and not denied , in respect of it selfe , can not be defended or borne , by any diuersitee of thinges , in how many so euer it be . For it is not possible that one very simple thing , beinge in deede directly denied , shoulde or might , by any meanes , all that while , be of the same denier verified or vndenied . And therfore this it may apere , how an heretike dothe denie the trewth of those articles , whiche he doth graunt , that is ( as I sayd ) graunt them directly and denie them consequently .

Cap. 32. HERE .

Then can I say ( I may tell you ) euen as much of the other syde , for when ye say , that he denieth the trewth of the passion consequently , in that he deniethe the trewthe of the resurrection directlie . By the same reason , I say that he graunteth the trewth of the resurrection consequently , in that he graunteth the trewth of the passion directly .

CA.

That wil not follow , in hym specially .

HE.

why not in him ?

CA.

Because he is an heretike .

HERE .

why wil it not followe in an heretike , as well as in an other man ?

CATH.

Because , when an other man graunteth the trewth of the passion , or of any other parte of the faith directly , he graunteth therin the trewth of the resurrection and also of all the other articles consequently , & that not onely because there is none other but the same trewth in the passion , that is in the resurrection and in all the whole faithe thorowly , but also specially , because he denieth no parte of the faith directly : But when t heretyke graunteth the trewth of the passion directlie , it can not so followe in hym , that he graunteth the trewth of the resurrection consequentlie , because therin he denieth the same trewth directly , whiche doth resiste and exclude his consequent graunte vtterly : and therfore thou maist not take the graunt of an heretike to be such , as is the graunt of an other man , for they bee farre vnlyke .

HERE .

Yet then by your saying , sith the trewth of the passion , and the trewth of the resurrection is but al one , that same one , doth he directlie graunt and denie both at once , which is playne contradiction .

CATH.

In dede it were no lesse , if that same directe graunt , and direct deniall of the trewth , mette both together in one article , as they do not . But now because the direct graunte of the trewth is in one article . and the direct denial of the same in an other , therfore by that , the contradiction is cleane put a way . And all by reason of the diuersite of the thingꝭ , wherin the trewth is so graunted and denied . Neuerthelesse , although the same direct deniall of the trewth , can not mete and ioyne together , with the direct graunte thereof , in one article , yet in the same one truth of both th articles , the direct deniall , crepeth so nere the direct graunt secretly , that it doth infect and poison it with the propre venem of it selfe consequently for all that , and maketh the graunt of no efficacie , much like , as wher a wicked mother can not come hir selfe , she sendethe a doughter of hir owne , as euil or wors then she : for a direct denial , is as a verie mother , of a deniall consequent .

HE.

And euen so , is a direct graunte , of a graunte consequent .

Cap. 33. CATH.

That is to be taken , where a direct denial , maketh no impediment : for therof riseth to an heretike , the same special priuilege to him only dew and conuenient , that what so euer he graunteth of the faith , as an other man doth directly , ther shall neuer growe and come vnto hym any profit therof finally . For the iuste graunte of a thing directlie , doth neuer so much prfitte and set forwarde , as the deniall therof consequentlie , doeth hurt hinder and plucke backeward : for if I graunt the to be an honest man directly . And after many wordis thereof rehersed accordingly , yet if I saie thou vseste thy nighbours maliciously , & cleane ageinst charite : do I not therin deny thine honestee consequently ? what profit therfore doth my graunt therin directly ?

HE.

But little .

CA.

Nay none at all , if thou marke it well , for howe can the profyte or perfection of a thynge abide , where the trewth of it is in dede denied ? and therfore although there be neuer so many articles graunted directely , yet it is not enough , excepte it be so prouided that none be denied consequently : And that can neuer bee done iustly , so longe as any one of them is denied directly . For that is able to infecte them all ( as I sayde ) with a deniall consequently . Accordyng to the saiyng of saint Paule ( before alleged ) modicum fermentum totam massam corrumpit : ●1 Cor. 5. a little leuen soureth the whole lumpe of dowe . Therfore ( as thou maiest nowe perceiue thy selfe ) it can not folowe , that an heretike hath trewely in dede , any parte of the faithe , other because he dothe directly confesse and thinke many articles therof to be trewe ( for he doth no lesse both saie and thinke of his owne faithe , wherin he is deceiued ) Nor yet because the more parte of trewe christen people , doth not thinke hym to erre in any more , then he doth directely denie . For farder then that ( as I sayde ) littell do thei perceiue or consider , because of suche thyngꝭ , what must folowe , thei seldome loke after : For beyonde their senses , fewe of them doth reache . And as for any secretes of nature , they are scant able to touche : What place therfore can their iudgement haue , in thynges supernaturall ? Wherfore what so euer he or they dooe saie or thinke , or how so euer to any of them both , it dooeth seme and appere , take this neuer the lesse for a suer conclusion , that euery heretike ( although it be a thyng to him selfe incredible ) is yet for all that , no lesse then out of the trewthe , of all the whole faithe throughly . That is to saie out of it in parte before men : and out of it all together before god : with whom euery thynge doth appere , not as it se = meth , but as it is in dede .

Cap. 34. HERE .

Yet syr , if it appere before god , as it is in dede : then it appereth before hym , with this differens , that where as he denieth some parte directely , he denieth all the reste but consequently .

CATH.

And makest thou no more but a but of that .

HERE .

What shuld I make of it els ?

CATH.

Thou shuldest make of it this , that there is no difference betwene them at all , before god .

HERE .

What not betwene a directe deniall , and a deniall consequent ?

CATH.

No trewly .

HERE .

Then are they both one .

CATH.

I graunt the same before hym .

HERE .

And not before men ?

CATH.

No.

HERE .

Why so ?

CATH.

Because men can not so come by them bothe , as god hath them before him .

HERE .

Then if they be but one before god , and two distincte before men , other god , or men , doth take them otherwise then thei be in dede .

CATH.

No not so .

HER.

Yes syr , for if thei be but one , they can not bee two : if they bee two , they can not bee so litle or fewe as one .

CATH.

Therin thou art deceiued . For that whiche is but one in some respecte , may be two in an other respecte well enough : as thy bodie and thy soule are but one , in respecte of thy person . And yet they are two in respecte , of their distinct and proper natures . And therfore lykewyse , although a directe deniall , & a deniall consequent be two distinct before men , in respect of their knowlage . Yet thei come both to one before god in respecte of his knowlage , wherin there is nothyng consequent , but all present ,

HERE .

Then by that , he knoweth not all , that men doth knowe .

CATH.

Wilt thou saie so ?

HERE .

It semeth no lesse by your saiyng .

CATH.

Wherefore ?

HERE .

If all thynges be present to hym , and nothynge consequent : howe can he knowe a consequent , whan ( if it be as you saie ) there is no suche before hym , that is to wit in his knowlage . and yet in mens knowlage there is .

CATH.

Men doth knowe the succession of daies , howe one foloweth an other . And how they can not , but passe ouer the firste , before they come to the next , as the sondaie before mundaie , and mundaie before twesdaie , and so forthe . Yet the daies do not so passe and succede one after an other before god in his knowlage , as they do before men , and in their knowlage . For he doth not ( as who saie ) tary and looke after suche or suche a daie or tyme as men doe : but hath mundaie as soone as sundaie , and twesdaie as soone as mundaie , and so euen the laste as sone as the firste , and all at once : And therfore what succession can bee of them before hym ?

HERE .

Then euen as I sayde before of a consequent : if there be no succession of theim before hym , he dooeth not knowe , that they seccede and folowe one an other , whiche men doothe knowe , and so by this , he knoweth not all that men knoweth .

CATH.

That foloweth not , for he doth most perfectly knowe : that they succede one an other in respecte of their naturall cowrce , and of mens knowlage and vnderstandyng therof : but not in respecte of his owne proper and infinite knowlage , wherin the laste ( as I sayde ) cometh not after the firste , nor yet the firste before the laste : wherfore in respecte of that knowlage , the daies haue no succession at all : And euen so in lyke maner , he knoweth a consequent , to be in respecte of it selfe , as it is in the order of nature , and of mans vnderstandyng and knowlage therof . but not in euery condicion so , in respecte of his owne proper & infinite knowlage , which passeth all : wherin ( as I saide ) there is nothyng before nor after , preceding nor folowyng , first nor last , but all thingꝭ together at once , euen very present and premanent : and therfore how is it possible for a directe denial , & a deniall consequent , to haue any difference betwene them there ? sith there is no difference betwene them here but onely , that the one foloweth the other ? as when thou seest a seruant folowyng his maister . Although there be a difference betwene their two motions in this respecte , that the one , which cometh after , foloweth the other , that goeth before in their owne proper being , Yet ther is no such difference of before and after betwene them , in respecte of their beyng in thy sight , whiche doth receiue , complet , and comprehende them both to gether at once . For therin , they haue nether before nor after , as thei haue in their owne proper beyng . For if thei had , thou shuldest not see them both at once , as thou dost , but one after an other as they are .

HER.

If I doe not see them as thei are , then my sight in them is deceiued .

CATH.

No not so , for thou seest them , not only as thei are , in respecte of theyr being in them selfes , but also far otherwise then so , in respect of their beyng in thy sight , for the behauor of their being in them selfes is one thyng . And the behauor of their being in thy sight , is an other . And that not onely because the one is as who saie naturall & the other accidentall , but also because that , whiche is successiue and consequent in the one beyng , is all together very present in the other . For els , thou shuldest not ( as I sayde ) see them both at once and euen to gether : wherfore sith it may by this apere that the sight of man is able in some kind of thingꝭ , as sone to reche that , whiche foloweth & cometh after , as that which doth precede & goe before , & to see that , euen present , which in it selfe is but consequent : how muche more is the sight of all mighty gods moste prouident and infinite knowlage , able so to do in any kynde of thing , what so euer it be ? Therfore before hym ( as I sayd ) there is no difference betwene the direct deniall goyng before , and the consequente deniall whith commeth after . But as well the consequente as the antecedent , are ther become , euen both lyke present , and therfore what difference betwene them in that respect ? wherin resteth the s●ertee , of moste perfit iudgement .

Cap. 35. HERE .

Then if ther be no difference betwene them , but bothe one before God , it must nedes followe , that it shulde be as great a faut to denie any parte of the fayth consequentlie , as it is to denie it directly .

CATH.

Hast thou spied that now ?

HERE .

I haue spied this , that it foloweth of your saying .

CATH.

I tolde the as much before , if thou hadest marked it well .

HERE .

yet I can not beleue it , for all that .

CATH.

No can ?

HERE .

No trewly .

CATH.

Wherfore ?

HERE .

Because then it were as good for an heretike , to denie all the whole faith directly , as to deny directly but the leaste parte of it , when therin is denied ( by your saying ) all the rest consequentlie .

CATH.

I will not say , it were as good , but I will say , it were not so euill .

HERE .

what not so euill to denie all the partis of the whole fayth directly as it is to deny directly but some of them ?

CATH.

So I say , although the same some , were but one of them .

HE.

I thinke ther be very smal reason therin .

CATH.

How smal so euer thou take it , yet so great thou shalt find it .

HERE .

That wold I fayne see .

CATH.

Then suppose two heretikis , of the which , one denieth all and euery part of the faith directly and the other derectly but some , or one parte therof .

HERE .

Contente .

CATH.

Then thou must graunt me three thinges , which no man will denie .

HERE .

what are they ?

CATH.

The first is , that the more euill any man doth , the wors he is . The seconde is , that euery mans euel , is other to the hurt of hym selfe only , or els to the hurt of hym selfe , and of other also : And the thirde is , that his euell , whiche extendeth to the hurt of other , is wors to him self , than is his euel which extendeth no farder then to the hurt of him selfe alone .

HERE .

To al these , I muste nedes agree .

CAT.

Then there is no doubt , but that heretike , whiche denieth but one parte of the faith directly , is a thousand folde worse , then the other is , whiche directlie denieth them all together . For howe coulde his euill that denieth them all together directly , hurt any mo but hym selfe ? In so muche that if he woulde , how shulde he be hard ? I will not say or aske what good man , but what other heretike is there , beside any one of the same sorte , that wold abide the heryng of hym ? yea what good christen man , wolde not be moued with a more thankfull mynde towarde god , for the gyfte and preseruacion of his owne fayth , and with a more diligente respecte to the conseruacion and keping therof , for that he seeth one so farre gone , as hath loste his altogether in euery poynt ? so that other folke shulde by hym , take rather good then hurt . But as touching the other heretike , which denieth directly but parte , looke how muche it is lesse , that he directly denieth , so many mo ther be , that doth not perceue it . And the moe there bee , that doth not perceue it , the moe therewith bee the soner deceued . And the moe ther bee , that be therwith the sooner deceued , tho moe catche hurte & be therwith infected And the mo ther be , that be therwith infected , the more his euill must nedes bee , which is the cause of it . And beside this , how hath any heresies ben sowed , multiplied , and increaced , so greatly among the people ( as to many hath bene ) but by hym , which semed to haue so muche of the fayth , that he was long thought , to lacke therof nothing at al ? But yet he did for all that , As the lamentable euill , that folowed therof , did at length more and more , playnly declare : But by hym which denieth altogether , there coulde neuer any suche thing be brought about : for he ( as I sayd ) is one , that no man wold here . Beleued therfore how coulde he be ? if he coulde not be beleued , no man by him coulde be deceued , if no man by him could be deceued , clere it is that his euill , could hurt no moe but him self , if his euell could hurt no moe but him selfe , farre wors is his euill , which hurteth not onely hym selfe but also many other beside . And that doeth he , which directly denieth but parte .

HERE .

Yet he that directly denieth all , and can hurt therfore , no man els , but him selfe alone , is yet as willing as the other is , to hurt as many as the other doth . Wherfore he must be as euill as the other is , because his wilfull intencion therein is no lesse .

CATH.

That folowith not , for when that euill intencion , which can not extende to the purpose thereof , for lacke of power or libertee to perfourme it with all , Can not bee so euill as that , which hath no restraint or lette of comminge vnto it , by reason wherof , it neuer fayleth to take effect : his euill must nedes bee worse , which is able to extende , bothe to the hurte of him self , and also of many other moe , then is his euill , which can extende no fardir , but onely to the hurt of him selfe , and of no man els : And therfore because no man wich his owne euill can hurte an other , but that he doth farder hurt hym selfe also in the same . And the euill of him , that denieth but one article or two , hurteth some tyme many thousandes mo : It muste therefore nedes folowe , that his euill , is euen to hym selfe , so muche worse then is his , whiche directly denieth them all , whereby he hurteth no man els but hym self alone : excepte thou wilte saie of euill workers , the more mischife they do , the lesse euill it is to them selfes .

HERET.

Ye maie bee sure I will not saie so .

CATHO .

Then euidently by this it maie well appere , that farre wors is he ( as I sayde ) both to him selfe and also to other , whiche denieth but one perte of the faythe directly , then is he that directly denieth Christe him selfe , and altogether .

Cap. 36. HERE .

Then how may that agree with this , that the oftener Christ be denied , the more wickednesse ( ye know ) it is .

CATH.

That I graunt : But herein is no such case .

HERE .

yes , and that will I proue , for he that denieth any one article of the feith , denieth the trewth therof . And he that denieth the trewthe thereof , denieth the trewth of Christ . And he that deniethe the trewth of Christ , denieth him . Therfore it muste nedis folow , that he which direttly denieth the trewth of Christ in many articles , denieth Christe therein more oftener then doeth he , whiche directly denieth it , but in one article or in two . Wherfore he that denieth directly most articles , muste nedes be so much worse , then the other is .

CATH.

That foloweth not , for the one denieth not the trewth of Christ in so many articles directly , but the other denieth it in as many , conseqently : And as euill it is to denie it consequently , as it is to denie it directly , and so proued before . Therfore , as euill is he that denieth it directly but in one article alone , as is he , whiche denieth it directly in mo , or in all together . And beside this , I sai that none of them both , denieth the trewth any more but once . For as he that killeth a man with twenstrokes , killeth hym not lykewise twentie tymes : but in very dede no more but once : And as muche doth he , that killeth hym at one stroke : so he that directly denieth the trewthe of christe in twentie articles , denieth it not twenty tymes because of that : but euen very once in dede . And no lesse doth he , that denieth it directly but in one article alone . For a thyng is not alwaie so many diuerse times denied , as the deniall therof is vocally spoken , and outwardly expressed : for the voice wherby the deniall is showed forthe , is not the very deniall it selfe , but onely a meane to shewe it by . For the deniall it selfe , whan the voice is gone and paste , abideth still within , all one and the very same , that it was euen then and also before , at the firste . Therfore when there is none other denied in this article or in that , then there is in any other or in all the reste , the deniyng of the trewthe in twentie articles , can no more make it twentie times denied , then the wrytynge of one sentence in twentie places , doth make it twentie sentences . For when the trewthe beynge but one in all articles , is once denied in one article alone , how many so euer of them beside , be denied afterwarde , they make not so many denials of the trewthe that is in them , but they make ( as it were ) so many shewynges , rehersals , or repetitions of the same , and nothyng els . For when the very deniall of a thinge , doth consiste in the mynde , & not in the voice , whiche is but an instrument to expresse it with all , & is not in dede ( as I saide ) the deniall it felfe . Clere it is , that the thyng being but one , can neuer be twise denied , excepte it be once graunted betwene . For otherwise , it is but one continuall , & not diuerse & seuerall , although it be neuer so ofte expressed , or in so many thingꝭ or sondry waies rehersed . For it is two thynges to shew the twentie times or in twenty thyngꝭ , what I denie , & to denie that twentie times , which I shew the. Because in the one , ther is twentie denials , & in the other but one .

HER.

Yea but what saie you to this , that most men do thinke , euery thyng that is denied , to be so often denied , as they hyer the deniall therof expressed , & represented vnto their eares .

CATH.

That is no mattier , for therin consider not they , whether it do still continew and abide all one , as well whan it is not expressed and shewed forthe , but kepte before & after within , as whan it is most manifestly and openly disclosed .

HERE .

Let it so be . But yet , what saith the gospell ?

CATH.

What saiest thou ?

HERE . Math. 16.

Mary that Peter denied Christe thrise , whiche is also cleane against this your saiyng .

CATH.

No not a whit . for his deniall was of an other kynde than this is . For of that could neuer folow no Christe , as there doth & must nedes doe of this : for that was in dede but feigned , restyng in wordes onely , and not in mynde : for although it semed , & so be saide ( as right well it maie ) that he denied Christe . Yet maie it be trewly some waie saide the contrary . For he denied but his owne knowlage of hym , and nothynge els . for it is two thynges for me to denie the , that is to saie , to denie what thou art , and to denie that I knowe the. Whiche kynde of deniall , no heretikes doth vse , that is to wit , to denie that they knowe Christe : although they might well enough , sith they be of that sorte , or farre wors , Math. 25. then to whom christe sayth , I knowe not you . Neuerthelesse , they do not so . For all the mainy of them , semeth to graunt hym , and no men in maner more : but yet for all that , they do in dede , denie , not that thei knowe hym , but that & what he is , which is ten times wors : For seint peter denied not what he was , but only that he knew hym . Whiche was but a feigned deniall , and did onely consiste in woordes . For it was farre otherwise in his mynde , because he did both thinke & know that he knewe him well enough . And did for feare but feigne the contrary : wherfore all such feigned denials , whiche hath there beyng not in minde but onely in wordes , may trewly be said alwaie to be so many , as thei be sondry times rehersed . But so may not this hereticall deniall , that we now speake of . whiche is of an other sorte , and doth rest in the minde continually , muche more subtilly , muche more secretly , & therfore a thowsande folde more perilously , then is possible euen for the inuentours therof them selfes , to perceiue or thinke : And therfore all this considered , it is not harde for the to see , that the trewth beyng once denied in any one article alone , it is not the deniall in many or all the rest of the articles afterwarde , that can make it euer the oftner denied by reason of that : when in that one , it standeth so full in deniall before , that it can not be denied againe , excepte it be one ( as I sayde ) graunted betwene : wherfore cleane against thine opinion , no oftener doth he denie the trewthe of Christe , whiche directly denieth al the articles one after an other , then doth he which directly denieth but one alone . And what therfore canst thou fynde els betwene them , but that he is yet as euill as the other , whom thou takest to be muche wors .

Cap. 37. HERE .

Euen this I can finde , that a faute can neuer be so euill , whan it is done vnwares and ignorantly , as when it is done , both ware & willyngly . And therfore he that denieth Christe but consequently , doubtles denieth him vnwares and ignorantly against his wil. For with expressed wordis , he doth both graunt & confesse hym plainly : but he , whiche denieth all th articles directly ( wherin he denieth him also with apparte wordes manifestly ) denieth him euen very ware & willyngly , wherfore he muste nedes be muche wors , then the other is .

CATH.

Yea but how canst thou proue , that he whiche denieth all the articles of the faithe directly , doth therin denie Christe bothe ware and willyngly , as thou saiest he doth ?

HERE .

Howe saie ye that ?

CATH.

Thou hast harde .

HERE .

In dede your question therin maketh me nowe consider with my selfe , that if I shulde take Ipon me to proue it , by his deniall of this article or that , euen from the first to the laste , ye wold say perchaunce , that he denieth hym but consequently , and so vnware & ignorantly in any of them all . wherwith I wold holde my selfe , if it were not for this article of the Crede . I beleue in Iesus Christe his onely sonne . &c.

CATHH .

And thinkest thou , that any heretike doth directly denie that article ?

HER.

That heretike whiche directly denieth all , must nedes therin , directly denie that . & therfore he denieth christ both ware & willingly .

CATH.

Yea that heretike : But ther is none such . For he that so doth , is not properly an heretike , but other a Pagan or Apostata , which is farder of , & more strange vnto vs , then an heretike is .

HER.

Then haue you lost muche labor .

CATH.

why so ?

HER.

what haue you done al this while , but gone about to proue , that he , whiche denieth directlie hut one article of the faith , is wors then that heretike , which directly denieth them all together . And now ye sey there is none such ?

CATH.

So I sey , for suche an heretike , was and is , but in cace supposed , wherof , doest thou not see , what foloweth ?

HERE .

What.

CATH.

Euen this , that he which directly deuieth but one article of the faith , is farre wors then is a Pagan or Apostata . For when he is wors ( as it is proued ) then the other is , which directly denieth them all . And none directly denieth them all , but other a pagan or apostata , it muste nedes followe , that he is wors , then any of them both .

HERE .

I praie you what call ye apostata ?

CATH.

He that hath bene once a christen man , and yet hath vtterly forsaken the religion of christ ageyn , and is gone clene awaie to the pagans and foloweth them .

HERE .

Trow ye ther be any such ?

CATH.

Ther is no doubt of that .

HERE .

Then ye graunt that he , and suche as he is , denieth Christ with a part wordes directly .

CATH.

What els ?

HERE .

Then he denieth him euen ware and wittingly .

CATH.

No trewly , for be thou right well assured , ther is no man liuinge that wolde denie Christ directly , if he wist , and were euen ware therin , what he denieth : For so ware is he what Chryste is , which denieth hym directly , as he is ware , what the whole faith is , which denieth all that directlie . And so ware is he , what the whole faith is , which denieth all that directly , as he is ware , what one article of it is , which denieth directly but that alone : and that alone doth he not know , nor so muche as beleue nother . For suer it is , that if he dyd , he wolde neuer deny it : no more therfore doth he know or beleue the whole saith , nor Christ hym self nother , which denieth both him and it , directly altogether , what warnesse or wittingnes therfore is there here , more in the one , then in the other ? also there can no man be an heretike , but because he denieth at the least ( as I sayd ) some one article of the faith or other . And that wolde he neuer do , but because he beleueth vtterly that it is no parte of the fayth at all . wherof it folowith clerly , that if he knew it were , he wolde neuer denie it . Therfore looke what lacke , both of knowledge and also of beleue , he hath in one article , whiche directly denieth but that alone , & euen the very same hath he in both , which denieth twaine . And also in each of them likewise hath he , which denieth three . And so forth after the same sorte , from one to an other , vntil it come to him which directly denieth Christ and all together . Therfore when he that directly denieth Christ & al together , hath no more faith or knowlege of hym or it , then hath he , of that one article , which directlie denieth but that same one alone , what more warely or wittingly doth the one , then the other , but euen both ignorantly together ? And besyde this , when the greatnesse of fayth may be such , as is of it selfe sufficient and able to houlde and kepe , who so euer haue it , from the denying of Christ in euery condition . And when it is suer also , that the very knowlage of him is therto , much more able then that is . How clerly doth it follow therof , that who so euer denieth hym directly , neuer doth it ware and wittingly ? wherfore notwithstanding this , or any thing els , which thou haste hitherto sayd to the contrary , I will yet say as I saide ( because the trewth is so in dede ) that as euell is he , which directly denieth but one article of the faith alone , as is he which directly denieth Christ him self and all together , as euill I say , not in this or that respect , but vtterly in euery condicion . And in diuerse caces ( as I haue declared vnto the ) also much wors , both toward hym selfe and other also : This differens betwene them only except , that the contrary remaineth in the grosse & ignorant iudgement of the commune sorte . The cause wherof , I tolde the before ( as it is in dede ) euen to be this , that they are able to see and perceue ( as they do ) the whole euil of the one : and in comparison therof , obscurely so smal a parte of the other , that some taketh it more , some lesse , sum very little , & sum no euil at al.

Cap. 38. HERE .

Sir , the daie ( ye may see ) is farre spente , and I haue yet a mile or twaine to go .

CATH.

A , now I perceue thow lackest matter , or els thou art wery of so muche talke .

HERE .

Our talke hath lasted a great while .

CATH.

That is long of the , for if thou woldest haue bene content with enough , it had ben done , long eare this . But neuerthelesse , to make an ende with all , Thou shalt haue my frendly aduise and counsaill , not only wel to remember , what I haue said vnto the , concernyng the miserable state of this vnfeithfull and peruerse generation . But also farder to consider of what condicion and properte it is of . which ( so long as it may endure ) neuer seaseth , to study , striue , contend , & feight agenst that , which euer dyd , and euer shal , geue it the ouerthrow , and preuail ageinst it , Math. 16. according to this promise of christ , Porte inferi non preualebunt aduersis eam , that is to say , the gatis of hel , shal not preuaile ageinst it .

HERE .

Ageinst what .

CAT.

Ageinst the holy catholike church , the pillare and stabilite of trewth , 1. Timo. 3. as saint Paule doth cal it . of the which trewth , it is also written , Super omnia vincit veritas , Trewth preuaileth aboue al thingꝭ . yet not with standing al the ould experience herof , this peruerse generacion , according to ther accustomed properte , nothing fearing the losse and casting awey of them selues , hath sturred vp ( as all men knowith ) ther damnable warre ageinst this pyllare and stabilitee of trewth , euen nowe in our tyme ageine , as it hath done oft before , euen to ther own destruction . for such doctrine of late thei haue here brought in and taught , as thei neuer were , nor yet are , nor neuer shal be able to defend , by any kind of thing , only secular power except , as it hath apered manyfestly all redy : For , before they gate that of ther side , ther was nother holy scripture , nor ould auncient holy fathers , nor yet any scholasticall lerning , that is to saie , any dewe and perfit order of reason , that could help , or make any thing for them . But of the other side , when they came once to power , and might , as they dyd , vse that as they liste , they were then so safe , ( say al men what they wold ) that it was neither holy scripture , nor nothinge els , that coulde preuaile ageinst them : for what so euer argument came in ther handis , they wold be suer to make the conclusion therof them selues , & that shuld be , other the porters lodge , the fleete , the marcialcy , the kingis bench , the towre , or at the least , such attendance , as shuld make the respondent , spend all , and more then he had : ye and somtyme , two or three of those conclusions brought in , vpon one argument , and yet not so dispatched nother : And therfore , doth not these and such other conclusions , playnly declare the learning of such disputours , as can none otherwise finishe their argumentis , but after that sorte ? May it not be saide , that these men be of a monsterous generacion ? yes trewely although it were but for one thing ( among many ) that I do know .

HERE .

What one thing is that ?

Cap. 39. CATH.

It maie well be this , that there is no doute but good thei doe , or els the holy apostle wolde not haue saide , 1. Cor. 11. Oporte hereses esse , it is expedient ( he saith , for heresies so to be . And because heresies can not be , without heretikes . Therfore as expedient is the one as the other : and that were none of them both , excepte some profite rise therof : wherfore good ( I saie ) they doe , and yet they neuer the better , how saiest thou to that ? For in dede , the more good they doe , the lesse worthy of thanke they are : the lesse worthy of thanke ? Naie the more worthy of blame , whiche is more strange . And therfore is it not as it were a monstruous thinge in men to do good , and take no profite therof : ye to do good , and take moste worthily hurte therof , and be wors then thei were before : In such monstruous feates , consisteth all the policie and cunnyng of this generacion . For they neuer speake more trewly , then when they lie moste falsely .

HERE .

How proue you that ?

CATH.

It is sone proued , and we goe but to this , that when they allege the wordes of the holy scripture moste trewly , they doe yet denie the trewe meanyng therof vtterly . And what is a greatter liyng , then a false vnderstandyng , and misconstruyng of holy scripture ? Beside this , their procedynges renneth directly against the dew order of their owne nature . Whiche nature , alwaie beginneth with the fleshe , and endeth with the spirite . for the fleshe at the firste , is before the spirite . And the spirite at the laste , is after the fleshe , when they are once parted : But their procedynges contrarie wise , begynneth with the spirite , and endeth with the flesshe , as it doth now most plainly appere . For when they firste brought forth their newelties , which wer such & so strange , as of the moste parte , coulde not be knowen , where they founde them , or howe they came by them , And vpon requeste made vnto them therof , thei answered alwaie and saide , we haue theim of the spirite : The spirit is the doer . The spirite is with vs , we haue the spirite , for why may not we haue the spirite , as wel as Peter or Paule ? sith it is written , Spiritus vbi vult spirat , Iohn . 3. the spirite worketh where he will , & therfore well to conclude , thei had the spirite : by reason wherof , to such as obiected any thing to the contrary , and could not digest their doctrine . Thei alwaies answered in corners and saide , ye haue not the spirite . The spirite is not yet come vnto you : but haue a good hope , he will come well enough at lengthe , if ye bee willyng . &c. But nowe wold I faine know , where that spirite is become : for , although we harde of hym alwaie to much at the first , yet we here nothyng of hym nowe at the last : Therfore this must nedes be trew , that other clene gone he is in dede , or els so shamefully turmoyled & sowced in the flesh , that he can no longer be iustly knowen , or caled by the name of a spirite , except he be ( as there is no dowte but he is in dede ) the very same spirite , whiche the holy prophet Osee speketh of , in his forthe chapiter , Osee . 4. where he saith , Spiritus fornicacionum , decepit eos , That is to saie , the spirite of fornicacions hath deceiued them . wherfore , how there is this to be trew , that this is the spirit in dede , which thei spake of so much at the first , who hath so led them all this while , that now thei are ashamed to confesse him at the last , excepte it be where thei hied him with lacke of their wordes , & confesse him openly , with their manifest workis . Therfore if any man dout of this trewth , let him but iustly waie & consider the manifest voluptuous & fleshly conclusion of all their procedingꝭ hitherto , & he shal see it more plaine , then can be denied . For what hath all their practises finally tended vnto , but only to the lust of the flesh , & such other thyngꝭ as maketh for the same ? among the whiche , although I can fynde no miracles of their doingis , to defende their doctrine with all : yet I can finde some great meruails of their doingis , to declare it withal .

Cap. 40. HERE .

What be those ?

CATH.

Of diuers & many , I will shew the some , wherof this is one . Among their maried priestes , diuers there be , which haue lerned such a cunning of their spirite , that thei haue taught their yong maried wiues of .iiii. or .v. yeres olde , to brynge them furthe children , of .xvi. or .xvii. yere olde . Whiche is a meruaile , because it is worthy to be meruailed at , or wondered vpon , those the whether : And beside this : an other meruaile I take it to be , that thei haue brought many of their children to suche a knowlage & vnderstandyng , that through the helpe of their spirite , the doughter may trewly saie to her mother , I haue bene longer a maiden , then ye haue bene a wyfe , by a dosyne yeres : whiche is a meruailous thing also , as thou woldst not faile to say thy selfe , if thou mightest come to the heryng therof . Therfore is it not an other meruaile , to see what a lacke , that woman hath , of the spirite of trewthe in this cace ? for if she had hym , she might soone answere hir doughter , and saie , doughter thou art therin not a litle deceiued . For if all the trewth herof , were so well known vnto the , as it is to some other , thou shouldest fynde that I am yet hitherto , no very wyfe in dede , although I be thy mother . And therfore thy conparison herin can not holde : Nowe consider with thy selfe , whether these be strange maruels or no. Nuerthelesse , although these meruailes and many other lyke , do playnly declare vnto vs , what maner of generacion this is . Yet we haue a more speciall token and marke to knowe them by , then all this cometh to : And that apointed vnto vs for the same purpose , by our sauiour Christe hym selfe , where he saith , A fructibus eorum cognosceris eos , Math. 7. by theyr fruites ye shall knowe theim .

Cap. 41. HERE .

Nay then syr if ye go to that , I must nedes sai more then I thought to do . For ye haue here declared their frutes alredie , as in dede thei declared yours , from their beginnyng hetherto , alleged the same texte to be mente and spoken of you , and not of them : who , therwith , so peinted your petegrew in dede , that a man might be ashamed to here it .

CATH.

ye to here their shamefull peintyng of their lacke of charitee .

HERE .

Nay to here of your frutes , as they declared them .

CATH.

What frutes of ours , did thei declare .

HERE .

Your pompe , pride , ambicion , malice , enuie , cupiditee , glotony , lupurious liuyng , and so forth , with many other vices , mo then the time will serue mee now to reherse .

CATH.

Why all these be but the comune frutes of mans fraile pronitee . And neuer faileth to be found in some persons , amonge all sortes of men , in euery countrey , where so euer are any people at all . And therfore although they leied all these frutes to our charges , yet are they no more ours , then thei be theirs . But in dede the trewthe to say , when obstinate errour began to rise , & sought about euen for them , his own most apte & very proper instrumentes , he found them in dede , euen amonge vs . Where thei had digged farre more depelie , in the planting , graffing , and gatheryng , of all these fruictes , then euer did we . And therfore he caused them , as his owne , moste mete ond apte for his purpose , 1 Iohn . 2. to depart from vs , according to the wordis of saint Iohn , where he saieth , Ex nobis prodierunt , sed non erant ex nobis , nam si fuissent ex nobis , permansissent vtique nobiscum , That is to saie , they went out from vs , but they were not of vs , for if they had bene of vs , they shulde haue remained verily with vs : Wherfore trew it is , that they went out from vs , and not we from them , with whom we were neuer , for we are now , euen where we were alwaie , and so are not they . Therfore sith it is plaine and manifest , that their departure from vs , was not of charitee , it must nedes be as playne and manifeste againe , that it was of the contrary , which is none other but euen mere malice in dede . and that was it , that caused them , to taunte vs with those euill fructes which are commone , to th intent they might therby , hyde the reste of their owne , which are to them , euen propre and speciall : for they be not , the commone euill fruictes of men , which our sauiour Christ taught vs to know this speciall generation by : for then we hadde bene therof neuer the nere . because a commune signe or token , can geue no certaine or speciall knowlage of any singular thing . Wherfore , because this kinde of men , is so singular , as ther is no moe suche , ( although to many by that ) Christ gaue vs therfore , a speciall note and token to know them by , when he saieth , ye shall know them by their fruictes . Math. 7. That is to say , by those fruictes , which are there owne propre vnto them selues , and to no men els . For ( as who saieth ) otherwise , ye could not discerne them from any other fortꝭ of men , where as by those fruictes , which I meane , ye shal not misse to know them in dede .

Cap. 42. HER.

What propre fruictes of their owne haue thei , that no man hath els beside ?

CATH.

Canst thou not tell ?

HERE .

No not yet .

CATH.

Then will I tell the my selfe , although not all , because I can not : nor yet so many as I can , because it nedeth not . But neuerthelesse , some of them , because the purpose requireth it : And therfore dost thou not knowe , that thei went alwaie about , to bring vs in to th experience of this trew saying , Vbi nullus or do , ibi sempiternus horror ? Iob. 10. which may this be englished , Where is no order , there is continual feare , trembling , astonishment , aduersitee , or thraldome . And therfore what order lefte they ( I meane not in prophane places , but in no lesse then in the holy house of god , wherin order ought to be moste regarded and moste constantly houlden and kept ) what order ( I saie ) lefte they therin vnshaken , or vnouerthrowen al together ? And that not onely by them selues , of their owne dedis in some places , but also by their deceuable and false perswasions in all places . For was it not they only , that cried awaie with al the olde auncient cerimonies of the churche ? and that so longe , vntill they had therin preuailed and brought it to pas ? And sone after , went thei not about to play the same parte , with all the holy sacramentis likewise , only two except , saieng there was no mo of them sacramentis in dede , but only two ? & yet of those two , they could not abide so muche as the trewth , and very right vse of them ●other . Farthermore , who deuised the newe alteration of the diuine seruise , but they ? And when they had done it , I praie the what was it ? any other or better then suche , as coulde not content them selues two yeres together ? And therin to show how lothe they were , in any thing to agree with vs , where we had the Pater noster , before the Creede , they put the Creede before the Pater noster : A worthy occasion , of such an alteracion . Therfore how newfangled fanses reigneth amonge them , Their handling of their ( Communion table ) doth plainly declare : for how hath that ben tossed from poste to pillare , now east , now weast , nowe north , now south , now vp , now down , this way and that wai , & sildome in rest ? In so much that in many places , the chauncel could not holde it , but downe it went , into the body of the churche , to drawe somewhat nere the doore : where as men saie , it had gone out and cleane awaie , if thei had been suffered but a little while longer . Wherfore , if newfangled fassions , be contrary and ageynst the dew order of any honest mannes house , as thei be in dede : how much more then , are thei contrary and ageinst the dew & honorable order , of the holy house of god ? how be it , by them we maie see , what maner of headis these be , from whence they come : which spareth not in matter & place of so great weight , to set forth , these fruictes of their owne malitious and propre deceit : For to whom maie we trewly ascribe , the gret spoiling and defasing of our churches , but only to these newfangled ministers , of such fals doctrine , as we see plaine , hath brought it to passe ? for who had ani suche maner of conscience , as durst once to venture vpon it , but only these deniers of truth , & such other as thei deceued ? who could haue thought it to be wel done ( as I thinke some did , or els thei wold not haue done it ) but throw the falfe prechinges & other moste crafty allurementes , of tbis peruers generacion ? who be they , that bareth to Christ , such a secrete loue , and an inward zeale in their hartes , that thei can not suffre the picture or Image of his blessed body , to stande in their sightis ? Who be thei , that went downe with the armes of his holy passion , & in the place therof , vp with the armes of men ? who be thei , that put aweie , the holy signe of the crosse , as euill or vnprofitable to looke vpon : And to supply the place therof , brought in Lyons , dogges and dragons , as good and more mete for vs to beholde ? who be they ( I say ) that are and were , the doers and workers of all these thynges with many other lyke , but only these very satanisticall teachers through their subtill pernicious & most false perswasions ?

HE.

Syr that thei did , thei did it by a lawe .

CATH.

wilt thou tell me that tale ? when these be neither the makers , nor yet the folowers , but alwaies the chiefe and manifest breakers of lawes , so farre as in them lieth ? For what lawes , statutes , or orders , hath ben made , so stronge , so good , and so profitable , for the spirituall comune welthe in especiall , as thei haue not broken , and caused to be broken , contemned and despised , so far as they might , for feare or shame ? Therfore tell not me of their obseruyng of lawes , againste the whiche , thei haue ben so many waies , open perswaders . In so much that I my selfe , haue herd some of them in the pulpit say , that thei wold go before the law , & bid the law , come after lyke a daw . And euen so thei did in dede : For tel me by what law , went thei down with the roode & the roode loftꝭ to the great defasyng of churches ? By what law , went thei downe with the holy alters of god , to the desperacion of many , in that thei had well beleued before ? By what lawe wente they downe , with twentie thynges moe , then the tyme wyll nowe serue to reherce ? Therfore these be not those , that wolde folowe the lawes . But they be those , that wolde haue the lawes folowe them . And then shulde they be no lawes at all , but only such , as thei wolde make them selues . For this by reason thou maiest well know , that those , whose religion consisteth in the deniall of trewthe , as the religion of heretikes doth , can neuer awaie with their lawes , whose religion consisteth in the profession and graunt of trewth , as ours doth . And therfore , what maner of lawes those wold be , which these deniers of trewthe , wolde other make or folowe , if they might haue their wyll , it is not harde to perceiue : But to be shorte in this cace , what is amisse in all this lande , other by reason of any innouacions , alteracions , confusions , or otherwise , wherwith the moste parte of the people are thiefly greued , but that hath risen & so come to passe , only by these extreme enemies of truth , & their crafty meanes ?

HER.

Crafty meanes ? what meanes are they .

CATH.

Their fals doctrine , false teachyng , false preachyng , dissimulacion , fraudulent flatteryng , crafty liyng , feigned holines , promise of trewthe and paiment of falshede , promise of peace , and payment of discorde , promise of truste and paiment of deceite , pretence of vertue & performans of vice , and suche other meanes , as are neuer to seke , nor out of vse , with these moste capitall enemies of trewthe : in so muche , that if thou were not a man so blinded withaffection toward them as thou arte , Thou shuldest clerely perceiue & see , all these meanes with many other lyke , in commune practise among them daily : And therfore , is it harde to consider & vnderstande , what kynde of fruites they are , whiche are alwai procured by these meanes , and many such other as these bee ? I passe ouer their handlyng of the wyls and testamentes of men , because I see them so strangely handle the most holy wyll & testament of christe : for how much of that will , wold thei haue trewly performed and kepte ? Thei saie them selfes , no lesse then all : And yet we maie perceiue , thei mene in effecte , nothynge at all . Neuerthelesse they wolde haue all thynges referred wholly and onely to that wyll , to th entent they might then , waie all thynges them selfes , euen after their owne wyll . Thinkyng therby , that their yea , and our nay , and our yea , and their nay , shuld stande together vpon an euen grounde : for although thei be in number far to many , & yet but few , in comparison of all other men : Neuerthelesse in matters of the churche , whiche be not small , but greattest of all , looke what all other men wolde , thei will not : what all other commende , they dispraise : what all other dispraise , thei commende : what al other do graunt , thei denie : what all other do loue , they do hate : what all other set forwarde , they wolde plucke backewarde : what meane thei by this ? May thei not be called a peruerse generacion ?

HERE .

It is a generacion that beareth some lies nowe and then .

CATH.

In dede as thou saiest . one I confesse my selfe . For where they bee sayde to leape from heresie into treason , although it were but a sory leape , yet the reporte therof is not trewe . For they haue not so leide hande vpon treason , that they haue therein lefte their heresie , as the reporte doth sownde : But in dede not leauynge the one for the other , they haue so wrought them both to gether , that those , whiche neuer tooke in hande , but one of them alone , can not yet bee compared vnto theym , in any of them bothe : wherfore , they bee vntrewly reported to leape out of heresie , into treason , when they wyll be suer to kepe them together , in a truste that the one shall helpe the other : Therfore what wonder is it , although they rebell against their gouernours here in earthe , when they be suche very rebellions against the trewthe of almighty god in heauen ? Iob. 10. Psall. 21. How haue thei handled the semeles garment of Christe ? not castynge lottes for the whole , ( as his persecutours did ) to saue the vnitee therof : But a thousande folde wors , snatchyng at the partes therof , to tere , rent , & distroy it all together . For what dissencion , diuision , discorde , strife , contencion & distraction of vnite● and concorde , they haue made in christes holy churche , all the worlde doth knowe .

HER.

I meruaile what is to be founde , amonge them , that ye wyll take in good parte .

CATH.

Trust me trewly , euen as much , as in them is worthy : whiche ( without question ) in respecte of th ende , they applie it vnto , is nothyng at all : For how bitter thei make ( or take ) the swete yoke of christe : And how heuy , they make ( or take ) his light burthen also , Math. 11. it doth well appere , not onely by this , that they haue so cleane , shake them both of , and caste them away for their owne partes : but also by this , that they haue caused , so many other , to doe the same lykewise : for are they not , the manifeste enemies of chastitee ? The perswaders of fleshly libertee ? The breakers of holy vowes ? The contemners of vertuous abstinence ? The crafty secret enticers from praier , when they call it but liplabour ? For what haue the done , vnder pretence of commune praier , but brought the most parte of the people , from their deuoute perticular , and speciall praiers ? Also what a malicious & spitefull parte haue they plaied , with no lesse than our blessed lady mother of our sauiour christe , and with his holy apostles , martyrs , confessors , & all the holy compenie of heuen ? Any other then done what they can , to bryng them all , euen out of regarde , out of estimacion , yea and cleane out of memorie ? as it is of the prophet sayde vnto god : Cogitauerunt aduersus sanctos tuos , dixerunt , Psal. 82. venite , et disperdamus eos de gente , & non memoretur nomen Israel vltra . Thei studied ( he saith ) against thy saintis . They saide , come , let vs ridde them awaie from the nacion , and let not the name of Israell , that is to saie , the name of the beholders of god , be had any longer in memory .

HER.

Syr , this was spoken of them in those daies , whiche were against all those saintes , that were then but here in earthe .

CATH.

Thou saiest well , and therfore howe much more was it spoken , prophetically of these in our daies , whiche are against all those saintes that are nowe in heauen ? amonge whom , they spare not so much , as the moste dere mother of Christe . For why haue they wyped so cleane awaie , all theyr names out of the letanie ? why haue they done the same likewise out of the kalender , as in other places beside , and that very many ? Why haue they made awaie , with all their images , out of the churches ? And that with more spite , then I can expresse ? And therfore what is the cause that these hippocriticall teachers hath done all this , but onely , vnder their falfe pretence of auoidynge idolatry , to put bothe them , and their names , euen cleane out of memory ? as though it were good and beste for vs , neuer to haue them in mynde : And so in a whyle not to beleue , that euer there were any suche . To this , their teachyng and doynge doth vtterly tende . But herein , what dooe they els , but shewe theim selfes so farre exiled out of the number of that holie companie , That , to come therto , they haue no token or lykelihode of any possibilitee ? Wherfore , so muche of their purpose , as they haue brought to passe all ready , maie put vs , euen cleane out of doubte , what they wolde dooe in the reste , if they had tyme and libertee . Any other thinkest thou , but ouerthrow all ? Therfore to what sorte of men , may this kinde of fruictes , with many other like , be iustly ascribed , but only to this vnfeithfull generacion alone ? According to these foresaid wordis of our sauiour Christ , Ex fructibus eorum cognoscetes eos , By their fruictes ( he saieth ) ye shall knowe them . Math. 7. For doubtlesse these fruictes , procedeth not of mans commune frailtee , but in very dede , of a diabolicall peruersitee : for without question these men be of that sorte , of whom saint Paule doth saie , Confitentur se nosse deum , factis autem negant , Titu . ● cum sint abominati et increduli , which maie this be englished , They saie , they know god , but in their doynges , they deny him , when they be abominable and vnfeithfull : Therfore sith it maie also now apere , by the testimonie of this holy apostle , that they be abominable in their workis , and false in their faith , what remaineth in them , wherby so many ( as we see ) hath bene trained in to their false fraternitee , ● Cori. 11. but onely their craftie , subtil , feyned , vnfruictfull , and bare fantasticall wordes , with out trewth or honestee ? For there can be no trewth in vnfeithfulnesse , nor yet honesty , in abominacion , by the which two termes , that is to saie , by vnfaithfulnes & abomination , the holy apostle ( as thou seest ) doth here describe them : Wherfore , consider with thy selfe , what a lamentable fortune , & miserable chaunce haue thei , which hath & yet doth commit the leading , of no lesse then their owne soules , vnto such a peruers generacion , such a peruers generacion I saie , as hath dissented and straied awaie , not onely from the commendable doynges , of all good christen people : but also from the pure veritee and trewth of Iesu Christ , And hath brought them selues , in to suche an vnfeithful , and abominable state , as thou maiste nowe perceue , not only by so much as I haue declared vnto the alredy , but also , by the manifest wordes of t holy apostle hym selfe , whiche doth saie , they are both abominable , and also vnfeithfull : And therfore , who be they , that yet doeth folow them ? any other but such , as therin , are moste infortunate ? and what hath brought them to that infortunitee ? any thing more , then that lacke of grace , Prou. 16. whiche causeth a certayne waie that leadeth to perdiction , to seme very streight ? More euer what do they finde in those leders whiche causeth them to be such folowers ? any truth of faith , when the apostle doth say they be vnfeithfull ? or any trewth of vertue or honestee , when he saieth , they be abhominable ? Therfore what is there in them , for the which they do so folowe them ? any thing els , but ( as I said ) deceuable wordes , a most vnworthy cause of folowing ? And yet they folowe them neuerthelesse . But why ? Trewly there is none other why , but euen their own ignorant & weiward wilfulnes : which doth alwai her ken & leane to a wrong spirite , directly ageinst the wordis of saint Iohn , where he saith , 1. Ioan. 4 Nolite omni spiritui credere , sed probate spiritus si ex deo sint , do not geue credence ( he saieth ) to euery spirite , but proue the spirites whether thei be of god , whiche were soone proued in those leaders , if these wordes of our sauiour Christe , wer well and trewly weid of their folowers , where he saieth , Math. 7. ye shal know them by their fruictes : Wherfore although this were enough to him that had but halfe an eye , to see what manner of spirite those leaders hath , yet because we maie see with our whole eyes , that it sinketh not , into such mindes as their folowers hath , I wishe therfore , that they wolde but well behould , and consider , this plaine and manifest monition and warninge of saint paule , whiche he doth geue in this cace , Hebre. 13. where he seyth , Doctrinis variis et peregrinis nolite abduci , Take hede ye be not led a wey ( he saieth ) with diuerse and straynge doctrines : Marke , what doctrines he speaketh of , diuerse and strainge he saith . And therfore the diuersitee and straingenes of their doctrines , conferred and considered with this lesson of saint paule , me thinke shuld cause them to beware , not only of the oneside what thei do , but also of the other side whom thei folow : for first so strainge ther doctrines are , that thei them selues can not tel , from whence thei cam , nor whither thei wil : as it mai wel apere by this , that thei haue so often fayled & deceued them selfes , in ther profe ther of : for where at the first , thei stifli said , that thei came from no les , them out of the holy scriptures , thei are therin founde most false & obstinat liers , for the holi scriptures maketh clene ageinst them and wher , for a farder shift , thei seid ( as somtime thei did ) that thei came from the olde holy doctors , therin thei lied as fast agein of the other side , for those holy fathers them selfes , do testify the contrari : and where thei had no farder to runne , but them to say , that thei came from the primatiue church , the verie bokis , of most godly writers in that holy time yet remaining , doth therin so conuince their falshed , that of ther lieng thei might be ashamed . wherfore yet vnto this day , so strange are ther doctrines euen to them selfes , that thei do not , only not know , from whence thei came , or whither thei will , but also that they are not so much as willing , to learne it nother : for when such as doth perfitly know it in deede , doth daily tell them the trewth therof , thei will nother beleue them , nor yet so much , as quietly here them : Agein of the other side , as towching the diuersitee of their doctrines , so diuerse we know thei be , that thei differ not only from the doctrine of the holy catholike church , ( without the which there is no saluation ) but also thei diffre , and not in a few thingꝭ , euen among them selues : as it may most plainly apere , by the sondry and manifolde opinions , that reigneth among them : For wher so euer , one saieth one thing an other an other , as thei do in dede ( the greate matter of the most holy sacrament of the alter to witnesse therof ) There must nedis be diuersite of opinions : and wher so euer there is diuersitee of opinions , ( if it be , as this is , in matters of the faith ) There must nedes be diuersite of doctrines : And wher so euer ther is diuersitee of doctrines , there muste nedes be lacke of trewthe , ( of one side , or other , or els of bothe together ) And wher so euer there is lake of trewth , there the matter must nedes be strainge , because without trewth it can not be knowen : Wherfore by this it cummeth clerly to light , that the lacke of trewth is the very cause , of the great diuersite and strangenesse of their doctrines : for the helpe wherof , this only monition of holy seint paule , seying . Take hede ye be not ledde awaie , with diuerse and strainge doctrines , wer of it self very sufficient , wher enough were no lesse then enough : But wher much more then enough , is nothing at al , what remedie , but pacience and pitee ? Therfore what shall I say of those their folowers , to whom all this will nothing serue ? any thinge els , but that thei are becum the worthy partakers , of all the propre fructꝭ , that procedeth of the leaders ? of the which fruictꝭ , let this very little of a great deale more and wors behinde , be now sufficiente for this tyme .

Cap. 43. HERE .

Syr wot ye what ?

CATH.

what .

HER.

It chaunceth well that ye haue here vttered all this talke only betwene you & me : for if it had ben in writyng and openly knowne abrode , I dare well saie , it wolde haue displeased a great sorte ?

CATH.

Why so .

HER.

For two causes .

CATH.

What are those ?

HERE .

One is the hardenesse of the matter .

CATH.

What , whan it is but all in englishe ?

HERE .

Although it be . Yet many wolde thynke it harde to vnderstande , for all that .

CATH.

That wolde none of our english biblers dee , whiche sticketh at nothynge in the holy scripture , wherin is most hardenesse of all .

HERE .

Yet I am suer they wolde sticke at this .

CATH.

Than shulde they haue but a good occasion therof , to lerne and see , how vninete they are , before they coulde well awaie with this , and other lyke , to goe to an other matter , of a thowsande folde more hardenes than this is of , as the holy scripture is in dede : wherfore the hardnes of this , coulde minister vnto them no cause of displeasure at all , but rather the contrary : And therfore what other cause is there els besyde ?

HERE .

Without faile an other , far passyng this , and that is not the hardnes , but in dede the very matter it selfe .

CATH.

What caulest thou that ?

HERE .

The descripcion of the state of an heretike .

CATH.

And wold that displease so great a sorte , as thou speakest of ?

HER.

Ye without doubte .

CA.

Thou art therin clene deceiued : and I wyll tell the why . There is no man , that wil be displeased or greued , with the trew descripcion of an heretik , if he hym selfe , be not one of them in dede : wherfore , if it displease not an heretike , it can displase no man : And an heretyke , it can not displease nother , as it maie well apere by this , that he can not beleue or thinke , that he is an heretike . And therfore he can not beleue or thinke , that this descripcion toucheth hym , any more than an other man : wherfore he can no more be greued with all , than an other man can .

HERE .

Ough syr , neuer thinke so , for all they wolde yet coniecture and shrewdly suspecte , that ye ment it of them , and of no men els .

CATH.

What , when thei can not so muche as thinke , that it doth any thynge touche them ? There were no reason in that .

HERE .

Syr , reason or reason not , so they wolde doe , for all that .

CATH.

As thou saiest , we haue to muche experience of them already , to loke for any reson , at their handes nowe : And yet because of thy saiynge , I wisshe that this matter were in their heryng , to see how they wolde take it .

HERE .

full greuously I may saie to you .

CATH.

Then , other they wolde kepe their grefe secretly , or els they wold declare & shew it openly : if they wold kepe it secretly , it were their owne , and no mens els : If they wold declare it openly , they shuld but therin bewrey them selfes , and playnly shewe what they be : for if thou shuldest make a trewe generall description of all felons or theues openly , and than , if any one of the audience , should take it greuously , woldest thou not thinke , that he shulde therin , shewe hym selfe to be other one of suche a companie , or els at the leaste a fauorer of that facultee , whiche in some respecte is wors then he ? And therfore euen so lykewise it is , in this case of heretikes . For if thei wolde nedes herein , with the vtterance of their grefe , shewe them selfes , what they be : they must be content of the other side , that men shuld take them as thei be . For so men must nedes doe , without any remedy , because no man can take a thyng otherwise , then he doth know it is . Wherfore nowe to conclude , because there is no disease of the body ( being neuer so lamentable ) that can be comparable to any mortall disease of the sowie . And no mortall disease of the sowle , can be comparable to this pernicious plage of heresie , I do therfore most hartely wish , that all men wold temper & qualifie , their consideracions and remembrance therof , with such earnest pitee , & daily praier , as the miserable state of this vnfeithfull generacion doth of necessitee alwaie require : And therin to desire , that it may please almighty god , not only so to stay th infection therof , that it sprede no farder : but also , with his great mercy & grace , so to viset the hartes of such as are infected and vexed with all , that they lese not the profite of the time and space , whiche to them he hath lent , therin to repent , & so to returne , to the swete pappes , of our most blessed mother , his holy catholike churche ageine . And therfore with this I bede the now farewell .

HER.

Syr , ye will not serue me so ?

CATH.

Why , what is the matter ?

HER.

Where is that , which ye did promise , to speake of frith ?

CA.

Thou saidst before , the daie was far spent . And now it appereth to be much more , for thou seest it is almost night : and therfore we haue now no tyme , to talke of so large a matter , as that wold be , if we shuld once enter in to it .

HERE .

Why sir , it can not be longe for any faute ye can fynde in him , he beyng so honest a man , as I beleue he was .

CATH.

What so euer he was , in thy beleue , he was & is , in my knowlage , as subtill , false , and folish , as euer was any of his moste wicked enterprice , that I haue other red or harde of .

HER.

Sir in your so saiyng , ye do kindell my stomake , more than ye are ware of .

CA.

What so euer I doe therin , I saie nothyng but trewth , which I am well able to proue .

HER.

That profe is it , that I wold here .

CA.

Thou knowest it can not be now .

HE.

when then ?

CA.

when thou wilt thy selfe .

HE.

Then , that shall be euen to morow mornyng by fowre a clocke .

CA.

What softe and feire , thou art very swifte .

HER.

I thinke it longe , I may tell to you .

CA.

So it semeth by thy hast . but eight of the clocke is a faire owr .

HE.

Shall I not faile , to finde you here then ?

CA.

If thou sai the worde , thou shalt not only finde me here then , but also , that to be trew , which I haue now said .

what , that frith was subtill , false , and folishe ?

CA.

Ye , as euer was any man .

HE.

Why , subtilte & folishnes , can not well ioyne together .

CA.

Yet , whether thei can or no , he brought them so nere together , that in his head , there was nothyng betwene them , but euen onely falshed , whiche did knit vp the knot , of all his conclusiions .

HE.

O sir I wold it wer mornyng as it is euenyng .

CA.

why so ?

HE.

It greueth me to breake of , and to leue this matter thus .

CA.

Thou knowest the mornyng is not longe hence .

HE.

Well , sith there is none other remedie , will ye remember your owre ye speake of ?

CA.

double not therof .

HER.

Then for my parte , I will not misse , I warrant you .

CA.

Therfore , god spede the well , for this time .

HER.

And you also syr .

FINIS .