A manifeste detection of the notable falshed of that part of Iohn Frithes boke whiche he calleth his foundacion, and bosteth it to be inuincible: newly set foorthe by Iohn Gwinneth clerke.

Capitulo . 1. CATHOLICVS ,

Ah countrey man , thou art I perceiue , a good riser in a morning , for I thought little to finde thee here so soone .

HERETICVS ,

Sir , if you had slepte this night no more then I did , ye wolde haue bene here perchaunce as soone as I.

CATH.

why , thou seest I keepe myne houre , and somewhat afore .

HER.

No sir , that I dare saie ye dooe not . For eyght of the clocke was your houre . And nowe it is almoste nyne , or nyne all together , if it bee not more .

CATH.

Not of any clocke in London I am sure .

HERE .

Naie then are ye well , if ye truste to the clockes of London .

CATH.

Why not ?

HERE .

Ye knowe right well , thei neuer agree together . And therfore we may be sure , thei goe not trewe .

CATH.

Then bee they wonderfull like vnto heretikes : and nothyng so euill to bee trusted as thei bee : whiche dooe alwaie deceiue , as the clockes dooe not . for there is fewe or none of the clockꝭ , but are sometyme in trewth , and so are t heretikes neuer , as thou maiest well perceiue , by that I said yesterdaie , if thou beare it in mynde .

HERE .

Well syr , I praie you , let all that passe , and nowe to the purpose we come for .

CATH ;

Ye but firste tell me how it chaunsed , that thou sleptest no better to night .

HERE .

Shall I therin be playne ?

CATH.

What els ?

HERE .

In very deede it was euen longe of you .

CATH.

Of me ? how so ?

HERE .

Ye gaue me suche a banket to bedwarde yesternight , at our partynge , as hath not a litle troubled my head euer sence .

CATH.

What was that ?

HERE .

Euen the same that ye sayd of myne olde frende Iohn Frith .

CATH.

What saied I of hym ?

HERE .

Ye saide he was as subtill , foolishe , and false as euer was any man , that ye haue redde or herde of .

CATH.

And callest thou that , a banket to bedwarde ?

HERE .

I maie so call it well enoughe . for it was and yet is vnto me , a bitter banket in dede .

CATH.

Why so ?

HERE .

Ye will not thinke howe muche it greueth me , to here hym so reported ?

CATH.

Then consider therwith ageyn , howe little it will greeue thee , to here hym so proued .

HERE .

How little ? Naie how muche ye maie saie .

CATH.

How muche ? thou wotest nere what thou saiest . For wilt thou bee more greeued , with the dewe profe , then with th only reporte of his falshed , by whom thou art not a litle deceiued ? when , for all the reporte , thou maiest yet remayne , other in doubte , or cleane out of credence therof , and so be deceiued stille , where as by the dewe proffe , thou maiest bee certaine and sure , and no longer deceiued , excepte thou wilt thy selfe . And therfore with the reporte , thou canst not bee so muche greued , as with the dew proffe thou oughtest to be glad and well pleased .

HERE .

No syr not so . For although I do here my frende euill reported , yet because the reporte maie chaunce to be false , it can not greue so muche , as the dewe proffe therof , whiche dooeth assure me , that it is trewe . Wherfore the proffe must nedes be more greuous , then the reporte , if I take it right .

CATH.

That is in respect of hym , and not of thy selfe , that is to saie , for his sake , and not for thine owne . To bee sory for thy neighbours falshed , in that he shulde chaunce to bee one of that sorte , is very well doone , whether thou haue it by profe , or reporte other . But of the other side , as touchyng thin owne parte , to bee sory for that thou art by a dewe profe brought to the knowlage therof , were more then extreme foolishnesse : sith by that , thou canst take no maner of hurte , but rather the great commoditee of escapynge all suche displeasure as might chaunce to ensue of the contrarie . And therfore what other thynge is it , not to be gladde to knowe the falshede of a deceiuer , But euen to be wilfully and worthily deceiued , as many a one is ? And therfore if thou be one of that sorte , whiche are so greeued with the reporte of Frithes falshed , that thei can not bee pleased with the dewe profe therof , it will be as harde for the , as it is for them , to take any profite of the beste probacion that is therof possible to bee made : whiche vnto them is farre insufficient , and nothyng worthe .

HERE .

Why so ?

CATH.

Because of their owne obstinate wilfulnesse , Whiche is the directe enemie and greattest resister of all trewthe : and therfore moste incurable of all euils : Wherfore if I wiste , that thou were one of them in dede , I wold euen now bidde the farewell , and talke no more with thee . For if I did , my labour were therin but loste .

HERE .

Syr ye shall not finde me a refuser of reason .

CATH.

And thou shalt not fynde me an offerer of any other .

HERE .

Then I meruell howe ye wyll discharge your selfe of this that ye saie , Frith was so subtill , foolishe , and false ?

CA.

For that purpose I shall finde matter enough , and it were but in that parte of his worke , whiche he dooeth call the foundacion of his treatise , wherin he thinketh him selfe so strong and moste sure .

HERE .

What he saith therin , I remember very well . And therfore I wyll shewe you some parte therof .

CATH.

No not yet , for I will make the first recitall my selfe : And therin tell me , whether I dooe it trewly or no.

HERE .

And euen so will I , by your leue .

CATH.

I am well content with all .

HERE .

Whether ye be or not , I will be so bolde at this time .

CATH.

I know it to be a parte of thy profession , to lacke no boldnesse .

HERE .

I maie be bolde in my frendes cause .

Capitulo . 2. CATH.

Spare not , and therfore take hede , and harken well to it . For in the preface , and firste lefe of his booke , where he maketh mencion of a brother of his ( not a brother of consanguinitee , but a brother of his religious fraternitee ) his owne wordes be these .

This brother ( he seith ) after muche communicacion : desyred to know my mynde , as touchyng the sacrament of the bodie and bloud of our sauiour Christe , whiche thynge I opened vnto hym accordynge to the gifte that god had geuen me . First I proued vnto hym , that it was none article of our feith necessarie to bee beleued vnder peine of damnacion : Then I declared , that Christe had a naturall bodie . &c.

¶ Nowe for so muche , thou herest what he saith .

HERE ,

I will not denie , but those be his owne wordes in dede ?

CATH.

And in these wordes , thou seest playne , that he saith the sacrament of the bodie and bloude of our sauiour Christe , is none article of our feith necessary to be beleued vnder paine of damnacion .

HERE .

All that I graunte .

CATH.

Therfore if it bee not vnder the peine of damnacion , I aske of hym vnder what peine then ? he will not saie vnder any peines of purgatorie , whiche he dooth vtterly denie , saiyng ther is none suche ? And any other peines after this lyfe , beside any of those two , there is to our knowlage vtterly none . Therfore what so euer he saith , none other he meaneth , but that it is none article of our faithe necessarie to be beleued , vnder any peine at all ?

HER.

Naie sir not so , for he wolde not speake it as he doothe , excepte he mente vnder some peine .

CA.

Vnder what peine is that ?

HE :

Vnder the peine of suche lawes , as be made & ordeined for it here in this life .

CA.

And wel said , for if he ment not that , plaine it is , that he mente ( as I saide ) none at all . But how cowld he meane that , when he accompteth al those lawes nothyng els , but euen the very cruell tyrannie of men , whom he calleth prowde prelates and furious tyrannes of malicious mindes , and vengeable hertes , as it appereth in the .xiii. and .xv. leaf of his booke ? And therfore he wolde that men shulde in no wise folowe them , but rather die , then obeie them .

HERE .

How knowe you that ?

CATH.

By nothyng better , then his owne acte : For euen so did he hym selfe .

HERE .

Yet his death dooeth shew , that he was bownde vnder that peine . For els he had not died .

CATH.

Take hede what thou saiest , for although his death dooth shewe , that he was bounde at the least vnder that peine : yet it dooth not shewe , that he so tooke it for all that : But it dooth shew clerely the contrarie : For if he had thought hym selfe bounde to beleue it , he wold neuer haue chosen rather to die , then to graunt it , for he was not so madde ( although he were madde enough , and to madde in dede ) as to chose his owne death , rather then to stande to that , whiche he thought hym selfe he was bound to . Therfore that he chose rather to suffer death , then to graunt hym selfe , or any man els , bounde to beleue it : doth moste clerely proue and shewe , that he ment it no article of our feith to bet beleued , vnder any maner of peyne : But to be so free , & at so great libertee , that he thought it better to die ( as he did in dede ) then to graunt it , or to be in any wise bounde vnto it .

Capitulo . 4. HERE .

Marry sir this dooeth open all the matter ?

CATH.

How so ?

HE.

He saith it is an article of our feith , but yet it is none of our Creede in the xii . articles .

CATH.

A , very well , and therfore we are not bounde to beleeue it ? a blessed doctrine : It is likewise none article of our Creede in the .xii. articles nother ( as he dothe take them ) that euer Christe preached or taught a monges the Iewes . Therfore we are not bounde to beleue it : It is none article of our Creede in the .xii. articles nother , that Christe had .xii. Apostles , or that there was any suche Peter or Paule , as we speake of , or that our Lady liued after the death of Christe . And therfore we are not bounde to beleue it .

HERE .

Yes syr , for all those thynges apere playne in the gospell , and therfore we are bounde to beleue them .

CATH.

I tell thee , the gospell it selfe , is none article of our Creede , in the .xii. articles nother . And therfore , we are not bounde to beleue any more of that , then dooth apere in the .xii. articles of the Crede , if we beleue Frith , as to many dooe : wherfore , is not this a gaie teacher , that wold so shut & locke vp our feithe within the .xii. articles of our Crede , that we nede not beleue any of these thinges , nor many mo besyde , as great as these be ? And furder more , If this sacrament be an article of our feith , and we not bounde to beleue it , why is it a sacrament ?

HERE .

Because Christe hym selfe did so institute it .

CA.

Then by Frithes doctrine , we are not bounde to beleue Christis own institucion , when that , which , our sauiour Christ did institute , is left at our libertee to choose whether we wil beleue it or no , as Frith doth holde it is . And therfore is ther any man , but only Frith , & his adherentꝭ that wolde thinke our sauiour Christe to institute any article of our feith so , that we might chose ( without parill ) w●●●her we will alowe it or no ? we dooe not alowe it , if we dooe not beleue it : and we neede not beleue it , if we be not bound to it : and we are not bounde to it , if it be vnder no peine . it is vnder no peine saieth Frithe .

HERE .

Vnder no peine of damnacion he saith .

CATH.

Vnder no peine at all he meaneth . But neuerthelesse let it so be , as thou saiest in his most fauour , And yet that waie , because there is no bond ( as he saith ) vnder that peine : we may at that gappe , ( as close as thou kepest it ) without any parill of damnacion ( after his minde ) cleane thrust out the credence and alowance of this holy sacrament , notwithstandinge that it is of the very ordinaunce and institution of our sauiour Christe him selfe . Therfore how dooeth Frithe handle this mater , but euen as though our sauiour Christe , at his institucion hereof , had saide , Here I leaue it amonge you , those whether ye will beleue it or no ? if he had so said : what might Frithe dooe more , to the fortifiyng therof , then he dooeth ? wherfore sith it is plaine , that our sauiour Christe neuer saide so : Nor yet , as all trewe christen hertes dooe know , neuer ment so : what a thinge is this of Frithe , that he wolde yet make vs beleue so ?

Farther more , if it be a sacrament , then is it an article of our feith : as bothe the one and the other , Frithe him selfe dooeth confesse and graunte . Therfore if it be an article of our feith : Then the trewth that is in it , must needes be of Christe : for what so euer hath not in it a trewth of Christ , without faile can be no article or part of his feith . Now because a thing can not be beleued or not beleued , but that the trewth therof , muste needes therin go withall , Marke what foloweth : This article ( he saieth we are not bound to beleue : And the trewth of this article , is the trewth of Christe . Wherfore we are not bounde to beleue the trewth of Christe , if we beleue Frithe . For , to beleue , or not beleue this article , without the trewth therof , or the trewth therof , without the article , is not possible , because they be inseperable , and can not be beleued or not beleued , but bothe together : Beside this , if there bee any one of the sacramentes more excellent then other , doubtles this sacrament of the blessed bodie and bloud of our sauiour Christ must nedes be the cheefe . And therfore if we be not bound to beleue this sacrament : plaine it is , that we are not bound to beleue any : for bound to any and bounde to the chiefe : of the other side , not bounde to the cheife , and bounde to none . Therfore what muste folow , but , after this doctours mynde , we maie bee bolde , without any parill , to shake hands with them al , and bidde them cleane farre well . As they but late went very nere it , which reteined but euen bare two of them . And that was perchance , but euen for a while nother .

Wherfore , thus thou hast now a sufficiente profe of the firste stone , that this blynde builder hath layd in his foundacion : whiche is so euell fauordly , and vntrewly wrought , that it can not couch or well lie of any side , but so sotteringe and farre out of square , that it can neuer be able to beare any good piece of worke , as euen nowe it maie , and here after shall muche more largely apere . For if a stone well wrought and euill laide , can not make but a shrwed peece of worke : what doeth a stone euill lated and wors wrought , but marre all together ? Therfore how Frithe laied this stone ( beside his wronge working therof ) thou maiest perceiue , was after this sorte : It is a sacrament he saieth ) and an article of our feith , and yet we nede not beleue it : would any man thinke , that it coulde be laied any wors then so ? yet to see , whether it will lie any better an other waie , let vs turne it , vpset downe .

HERE .

As how ?

CATH.

Euen thus , If we nede not beleue it , it is none article of our feithe , nor yet no sacramente nother . And therfore , how likest thou the leiynge of it nowe ?

HERE .

It lieth wors this way , then it did before .

CATH.

That is long of the workemanshipppe . For Frithe wrought bothe , that is to saie , as well the one side as the other : and of the two euill he laide the worste vnderneth out of sight , wherby it might the more easly and sooner deceiue .

HERE .

How so euer Frithe laied it , yet am I sure , that he neuer so wrought it , as you haue nowe laied it .

CATH.

How knowest thou that ?

HERE .

Because he nother saieth , we nede not beleue it , nor that it is none article of our feith , nor no sacrament , as ye laie now all three to his charge , but he dooeth saie , the contrary , and that in plaine wordes directly . And therfore the laiyng of it , as ye laie it now is of your owne head , and not of his .

Capitulo . 3. HERE .

His profe is this ?

Firste we muste all acknowlage ( he saith ) that it is none article of our feith , whiche can saue vs , nor whiche we are bounde to beleue vnder the peine of eternall damnacion . For if I shulde beleue , that his very naturall bodie both flesh & blood , were naturally in the bread and wyne , that shuld not saue me : seing many beleue that , and receiue it to their damnacion . for it is not his presence in the breade , that can saue me , but his presence in my herte through feith in his bloode : whiche hath washed out my synnes , and pacified the fathers wrath towarde me .

And agayne , if I dooe not beleue his bodely presence in the bread and wyne : that shall not damne me : but the absence out of my herte thorough vnbelefe .

Nowe sir , here ye haue herde his profe , what saie ye to it ?

CATH.

In very dede , with some of his owne woordes , I saie to it this . First we must all acknowlage , that he is the moste subtill , craftie , and wilie solititour of his masters cause , that euer traueled in this matter , so farre as I haue redde . For if the diuell hym selfe were incarnate , and so shulde come amonge vs , to see what he coulde dooe againste the faithe of this holy sacramente , what might he inuent or imagine therin , more subtilly , more craftily , and with more wilynesse for the purpose , then this man of his , hath doone alredie ? For he dooth not directely denie it a sacrament , he dooth not directly denie it an article of our feith : he doothe not directly denie , that we are bounde to the belefe of it nother : But he goeth anere waie to worke then so . For all these waies , or any of them , he knewe right well , had ben of suche a sorte , to swade at the firste , that men wolde haue ben therin , more redy to spette at hym , then willyng to here hym . Wherfore he thought to begynne an other waie , that is to saie , with no more , but onely the deniall of the peine of damnacion , dewe for the not beleueinge therof . And that because he considered , how prone , reddie , and gladde all men are , to bee ridde of the perill and daunger of peines , specially the peines of damnacion . And therfore to creepe the more easely into their fauour , he thought to enter with that , whiche thei had moste luste to here : Beyng well assured , that if he preuailed therin ( as it semed to him moste like ) all the reste of his purpose , should easly folowe : as to playne it is , that it hath doone , in a great sorte . For if I shuld intende to allure thee from the belefe , that Christe was borne of a virgin , how coulde I so craftily , and so easely brynge it aboute by any meanes , as by this perswasion , that there is no perill of damnacion therin ? For let me once brynge the out of the feare of that perill , And then , who dooth not see , how easy a matter it were , to bryng the out of thee feare of all other perils , whiche are nothynge in respecte of that , sith thou mightest kepe the from them , with not bewraiyng thy selfe ? And when thou arte once therin , throghly ridde and paste the feare of all perils , what case art thou in then , with thy feithe of that article , but euen cleane careles ? for no man careth , but for feare of some displeasure that might ensue . Therfore when thou art careles , whether thou beleue it or no , what nede any farder perswasion to moue the from it ? specially when the propretee of the thyng is suche , as will neuer abide with him , that careth not for it : for he that careth not for it , setteth nothyng by it . And he that setteth nothyng by it , other hath lost it , or will not longe kepe it . And therfore , when it is once come to be nothyng set by , To what cometh it farder , but euen to contempte and extreme hatred ? wherof there can be no greatter profe , then the lamentable experience therof , to great and openly knowen ? For hath not this wilie Reinarde , by the meanes of this his diabolicall perswasion of no perill of damnacion in the lyke case , brought many a one to the same pointe , with this holy sacrament whiche we nowe speake of ? as it maie moste plainely apere , by the shamefull approbrious woordes and behauiour of his owne disciples . whiche sticke not , some in the pulpet , and moe in the ale howse , to call it iacke in the boxe : A god of .xxiiii. a penny : A god of the bakers makyng : A great idoll , a sacrament of the halter , in dirision of it , and of the holy alter : with such other moste shamefull , both saiyngꝭ and examples , so horrible and odible , as can not but abhorre all good Christen eares to here them . Therfore in this pointe to conclude ( as I began ) First me muste all acknowlage ( if we dooe well ) that he is ( as I saide ) the most wilie , subtill , and craftie solititour of his masters cause that euer medled in this matter .

Secundarily , we must all acknowlage likewise , that he is not so wilie , subtill , and craftie one waie , but that he shewth hym selfe as fonde , and foolishe an other waie , as it dooth partely apere euen nowe , and muche more shall here after . For here thou seest , he taketh vpon him ( as a matter of great weight ) to proue that , whiche no man learned will denie .

HERE .

What is that ?

CATH.

That the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe . For who knowth any thynge , and knoweth not that ? although it bee commonly called the bodie of Christe , as right well it maie for diuers causes , whiche here after shall well apere .

HE.

Sir of this folie , I dare well excuse hym . For although it be knowen to them that be lerned , that the sacrament it selfe , is not the very naturall bodie of Christ , as it is communely called , yet he doth well to make a profe of the trewthe therof , for the vnlerned sake , to whom it is otherwise , or not so well knowne .

Capitulo . 8. CATH.

Then yet thirdly , we must all acknowlage once againe , that it is harde to saie , whether he be herein more foolishe , or false . For plaine it is , that here he doothe promise one thynge , and clene omittyng the same , gothe aboute to performe an other .

HERE .

How so ?

CATH.

Dooest thou not see it plaine , that he dooeth here promise to proue , that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe ? And for the performance therof , doost thou not see againe that he goeth a bowte to proue , that the naturall bodie of Christe , is not in the sacrament ? As though it were all one to saie , that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe , and to saie , that the naturall bodie of Christe , is not in the sacrament : Euen as I might saie , thy sowle is not thy bodie , and for to make the beleue the same , goe aboute to proue , that thy sowle is not in thy bodie : as though to be , and to be in , were all one , that is to saie , as though to be the howse , and to be in the howse , were without any difference . Therfore because Frith , in diuers places of his booke , doubtyng of mens sightes , dooth saie in the fourthe leaf ( this might expounde our matter , if men had eies to see , ) other he him selfe , had eies to see this muche as I saie , or els he had not : If he had not , but spake blyndly he wiste nere what , how foolishe dooth he apere ? If he had , and saw what he did , how plaine false dooth he shewe hym selfe , whiche is farre wors ? wherfore sith his posicion and his probacion , are here of such a degeneracion , that thei are without all possibilitee , of any agrement to gether , let vs therfore helpe hym to change his posicion , and frame it somewhat acordyng to the pretence of his probacion , to see what it will proue then , because it is nothyng to the purpose now .

HERE .

How shall we dooe that ?

CATH.

Thou seest his posicion in effect is this , that the sacrament is not the naturall bodie of Christe : And his pretended probacion renneth , not vpon that but vpon this , that Christes naturall bodie is not in the sacrament . Therfore let his posicion be euen so , to see whether his pretended probacion will reache vnto that or no.

HE.

Yes I doubt not therof ?

CA.

Whether thou do , or not , yet we must all acknowlage once againe ( as it dooth plainly apere ) that he hath in this pretended probacion , brought for him , none authoritee of holy scripture , none of olde holy doctors , nor yet so muche as any one sparke of reson or truth other . For all his great pretence of defendyng him selfe by those three authoritees , as it apereth in the thirde and fourtenth lefe of his booke , if thou markeit well .

HERE .

Yes syr , very good reason he bringeth here , for he saith , If I shoulde beleue that his very naturall bodie , bothe fleshe and blude : were naturally in the bread and wyne , that shuld not saue me , seeynge many beleue that , and receiue it to ther damnacion .

How saie ye nowe ?

CATH.

If thou call this good reason , thou haste but a little witte . For beside , that he doothe here call it breade and wyne , of a spite against the contrarie : as though it were breade and wyne in dede , whiche is most false , as hereafter it shall well apere . And beside his foolishe speakynge in this that he saithe , If I shulde beleue that his very naturall bodie were naturally therin , as who saie , because we doe beleue that Christes very lyuely bodie , is presently and verely in the sacrament , we beleue it to bee therin naturally : when we dooe not beleue it to be so in heauen . And yet we beleue it to bee verely there in dede , for all that . But this man dooeth speake , as though it were alwaie a generall rule , that where so euer any thynge is presently , it wer there also naturally . As who saie , when an arowe is shotte vp in to the aire , it were there naturally , or a bladder blowen full of aire : and conueied by violence downe to the botome of the water , it were there naturally . Or as who saie , when god toke Helias from the societee , and companie of mortall men , and did lifte hym vp into heauen , he passyng through the aire , was there aboue naturally : Besyde ( I saie ) all this , very false , foolishe , and nothyng to the purpose , what is there in it els , whiche doothe proue it none article of our feith , that we are bownde to beleue ? For there aboute he goeth .

HERE .

That many beleue it ( he saith ) and receiue it to their damnacion .

CATH.

What meaneth he by that ? are we not bounde to beleue it , because thei beleue it .

HERE .

Naie not therfore ▪

CATH.

What then ? Because thei receiue it ?

HERE .

No nother .

CATH.

Then , is it because thei beleue it , and receiue it to ?

HERE .

He meaneth not so nother .

CATH.

How then ?

HERE .

As Paule saieth , 1. Co. 11 He that eateth and drynketh it vnworthily , doothe eate and drynke his owne damnacion .

CATH.

A then he groundeth hym selfe herein vpon saynt Paule .

HERE .

What els ?

CATH.

In dede it were els but euen his own dreame , as I wene we shall fynde it neuertheles . Therfore if the cause why , that we are not bounde to beleue it , be nother because thei beleue it : Nor because thei receiue it : nor yet because thei beleue it and receiue it bothe , but because of that , whiche foloweth , that is to saie , to their damnacion . Then , why is it to their damnacion ?

HERE .

For their vnworthinesse .

CATH.

Therfore when Frithes reason is either nothyng , or els this that we are not bounde to beleue it because many receiue it to their damnacion . And thei receiue it not to their damnacion , but because of their vnworthinesse , how clerely doothe it folowe , that their vnworthines is the cause why , ( by his reason ) that we are not bound to beleue it ? And how madde a witte hath he , whiche will thynke , that any other mennes vnworthines can set vs , of or on , with the bonde of our belefe , in any poynte of our feithe ?

Capitulo . 9. HERE .

Sir yet ye take him wronge still . For he doth not mene that their beleuing , or vnworthy receiuing of it to their damnacion , is the cause why , that we are not bounde to beleue it .

CA.

How then ?

HERE .

He dooth mene no more , but that it dooeth shewe , that we are not bound to beleue it .

CATH.

Aha , then it is come from a prouing , to a shewing , and that full wise : for that they dooe beleue it , doeth rather shewe , that we be bounde , to dooe so to , rather then the contrarie .

HERE .

What , when they receiue it to their damnacion ?

CATH.

Yea for all that : for why dooe they receyue it to their damnacion : because they beleue it ?

HERE .

Nay that is not his minde nother , for then he wolde not haue saied , we are not bounde to beleue it .

But he woulde haue saied , we be bound not to beleue it .

CATH.

Therfore what is this to the purpose of our bond of beliefe ? If he counde haue proued , that suche as dooe not beleue it , were in no dainger therfore , it had bene then an other matter . But to say , seeing many beleue it : and as who say , therfore we maie laufully chose : what noddy wolde so saie or suppose , but he ?

HERE .

Sir it is not that nother , which Frith intendeth to shew it by .

CATH.

What then ?

HERE .

That they receiue it to their damnacion .

CATH.

Doth that shew , that we be not bounde to beleue it ?

HERE .

Cleerly me thinke .

CATH.

Euen as though the bonde of beleuing , were enough to put away , the danger of vnworthy receiuing : but yet I pray thee looke better vpon it . And tell me in good ernest , whether it dooeth not seeme rather to shew , that we be not bound to receiue it , then not bounde to beleue it ?

HERE .

Receiue it ? what we be bounde therto , by the plaine wordes of the gospel .

CATH.

That I graunt to be trew : And therfore tell me whether of them both , dooe Frithes wordes seeme rather to shew , for although bare wordes of shewing bee farre from the strength of dew prouing , yet if there bee any thing in his shewing , that might sound herein ageinst our dewtie of beleuing , dowtles it dooeth sound ten times more ageinst our dewtie of receiuing , then ageinst that . And yet betwene the dutie of receiuing , and the deutie of beleuing herein , the difference is such , that vnworthinesse of maners , may and ought for the time , exclude the dewtie of receiuinge : But so it can neuer doe the deutie of beleuinge at any time . Wherfore in this much , hitherto , we haue found , vnder the onely pretence of a great worthy prouinge , nothinge els in deede , but his onely bare , leane , and naked saiyng , without reason , trewth , wit , or learning .

Cap. 10. HERE .

Ye but yet ye muste take that foloweth with all , and then iudge as ye see cause . For ye know he addeth vnto it this , It is not his presence ( he saieth ) in the bread , that can saue me , but his presence in my hert through feithe in his bloud , which hath washed out my sinnes , and pacified the fathers wrath towarde me .

Now sir weigh this and the other together .

CATH.

Nay the other we haue weighed well enough alredie And therfore what shall we weigh in this , but that it is none article of our feith , which we are bounde to beleue vnder paine of damnacion , that the very bodie of our sauiour Christ is presently in heauen ?

HERE .

I meruaile that ye will so say . For Frith hath here no such wordes .

CATH.

No , it is enough for him so to teach , although it bee in other wordes . For when he doth saie it is not his presence in the bread , that can saue hym , what dooeth he els intende , but therby to proue that we are not bound to beleue it ?

HERE .

That I graunt .

CATH.

And dooeth it not euen as muche against our beliefe of his very bodily presence in heauen ?

HERE .

I thinke not .

CATH.

Then harken well what I shall say , for the selfe same wordes , that he speaketh here , of Christes bodely presence in the sacrament , I will speake of his bodily presence in heauen , and then tell me thy selfe , whether it be as I say or not .

HERE .

With a good will .

CATH.

Then this . It is not his presence in heauen , that can saue me : But his presence in my herte , through feith in his bloude , whiche hath wasshed out my sinnes , and pacified the fathers wrath toward me . Wherfore it is none article of our feith , which we are bound to beleue vnder peine of damnacion . How saiest thou to it now ?

HERE .

I saie the plaine wordis of the scripture dooe binde vs therin to the contrary .

CATH.

And therfore I saie , the plaine wordes of the scripture is ageinst this , which Frith dooeth teache . And for a more clere vnderstandinge therof , when he saieth , it is not his presence in the breade , that can saue me , but his presence in my heart thorow feyth in his bloud , and therof wold haue it folow , that it is none article of our feith , which we are bounde to beleue vnder peine of damnacion , I aske no more of him , but what of his preseece vpon the Crosse ? what of his presence in the Sepulcre ? what of his presence among his disciples ? what of his presence now in heauen ? with his presence in many cases moe ? doest thou not clerely see , that this lesson of his doth renne directly euen as wel ageinst the beliefe of al these , as ageinst the belife of his presens in this holie sacrament ? Therfore if his seiyng make any thing against this , it maketh as much ageinst al the rest : If it make nothing against al the rest , then it maketh nothing against this :

HERE .

Sir the presence of these thingꝭ , that ye speake of , are all gone and paste , sauyng his presence in heauen .

CATH.

Ye but the feithe and belefe of them all amonge vs , is nother gone nor paste , for we stande bownde to that neuerthelesse . And that is it , whiche Frithe attempteth to oppugne and ouerthrowe . And therfore what so euer he doothe ( as I saide ) against the belefe of one of theim : without faile he dooth against the belefe of them all .

HERE .

Sir ye maie make of euery mans tale what he luste , if ye bee so disposed .

CATH.

Why saiest thou so . Thou maiest easely perceiue , that I make none other of his tale , then therof must I nedes folowe . And therfore where he goeth farder and saieth of the contrarie parte .

If I dooe not beleue his bodily presence in the breade and wyne : that shall not damne me , but the abcence out of my herte through vnbelefe .

Looke nowe thy selfe , if he might not as well haue said , If I dooe not beleue his bodily presence in heauen , that shall not damne me , but the absence out of my herte through vnbelefe ? How saiest thou ? Is it not well proued of hym , that Christes bodily presence in the sacrament , is none article of our feith , whiche we are bounde to beleue vnder peine of damnacion , when he proueth vtterly by the same reason ( as he did before ) euen as muche and no lesse of his bodily presence in heauen ? But where he saithe , If he dooe not beleue it , that shall not damne hym , how will he proue that ? or why dooth he not so muche as pretende or seme to goe aboute it ? But without faile , because his heretical lie therin , is so great , that it will with no maner of thyng be couered , but onely with his fals feith , whiche hideth it from hym , and suche other as he is , and from no man els . And therfore I praie thee , marke well what he saith immediately folowyng in the same lefe for his woordes be these , Now if they wold here obiecte ( he saith ) that though it be trewth , that the abcence out of the bread could not damne vs : yet are we bound to beleue it : because of gods worde , which who beleueth not : as muche as in hym lieth , maketh god a lier . And therfore of an obstinate minde not to beleue his woorde , maie bee an occasion of damnacion .

How saiest thou ? dost thou not see what a foolishe phantasticall obiection he hath here feigned of our behalfe ? as though we wold hold and obiecte , that the absence out of the bread ( as he calleth it ) were a trewth , when that is his parte , & not ours . For he plaieth that parte him selfe , & so do not we , but the contrarie . And againe , as though we wold obiect , that we are bounde so to beleue it , & that by gods worde : but where or which of gods wordes that is , he telleth vs not . Wherfore this propre obiection , of his madde phantasticall feignyng , I will passe ouer , leste I shuld with more talke , rather hied , then disclose the foolishnes of it . And therfore beholde it well thy selfe , for I leue it vnto thee , euen as it is , because it appereth more foolish of it selfe , then I can declare with all I can saie . And yet because his solucion therof , dooth answere it so well , as though th obiection it selfe had neuer bene imagined , thou shalt here it , to th intent thou maiest perceiue , what a colour he dooth caste vpon the matter , vnder the onely pretence of an answere , and nothyng els .

To this we maie answere ( he saith ) that we beleue gods woorde , and knowlage that it is trewe : but in this we dissent , whether it be trewe in the sense that we take it in , or in the sence , that ye take it in : and we saie agayne that though ye haue ( as it appereth vnto you ) the euident woordes of Christe , And therfore consiste in the barke of the letter : yet are we compelled by the conferryng of the scriptures to gether within the letter , to serche out the minde of our sauiour . which spake the woordes . And we saie thirdly , that we doe it not of an obstinate minde . For he that defendeth a cause obstinately ( whether it be trew or false ) is euer to be reprehended . But we doe it to satisfie our consciences , whiche are compelled by other places of scripture , reasons , and doctours so to iudge of it . And euen so ought you to iudge of your partie , and to defende your sentence not of obstinacie , but by the reason of scriptures , whiche cause you so to take it , and so oughte neither partie to dispise other . For eche seketh the glorie of god : and trewe vnderstandynge of the scripture .

I doubt not , but here thou seest a wonderfull charitee in this man , whiche swadeth so sore , to suche a concorde to be had betwene trewth and falshed , that he wolde haue neither partie despise other : for eche ( he saith ) seketh the glorie of god , & the trew vnderstandyng of the scripture . And therfore I woulde yet knowe of hym , when , or where , that partie should finde the glorie of god , and the trewe vnderstandyng of the scripture , whiche seeketh it in falshed ?

HERE .

what speake you of that , when Frith meaneth no suche partie ?

CATH.

Wilt thou saie so ? is not that one of the parties , that Frith speaketh of , which holdeth with Christis bodily presence in the sacrament , and that to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion , and the other , which holdeth directly the contrarie ? And therfore if the one be trew , the other must nedes be false : yet eache ( he saieth ) seketh the glorie of god , and the trew vnderstandynge of the scripture : And I saie then , the one in trewthe , and the other in falshed , speede as they can , for so it is , when they be in two directe contraries . But where our sauiour Christ saieth vnto vs , Math. 7. Querite , & inuenietis , that is to saie , seeke and ye shall find , although he ment therin none other thing , then apperteigneth to the glorie of god , and the trew vnderstandynge of the scripture , yet because he did not there apoynt vs dir●●●… with apert and speciall wordes , wherin we shulde seeke it , Frith perchaunte toke hym to meane it indifferently , as well in falshead as in trewth . And that maie well bee the cause why , that he for his part , sought the glory of god , & the trew vnderstandinge of the scripture , in falshed : And lefte vs to seeke it in trewth , where withall he would not meddle : how be it litle nede he had so to dooe , for therin found we it , longe before . And that is the cause , he liked vs so muche the wors . And therfore yet marke the wilie Raynard , wher about he goeth .

HERE .

where about ?

CATH.

Euen to bring both the parties to suche an indifferencie , that neither shuld despise other , while his parte might haue a quiet leisure to creepe in , and cleane thrust out the tother : for well he wost , ( for all his false dissimulation ) that thei coude not continew together . Therfore as touthing all the rest of his answere beside , weigh his obiection and that well together : And as in folly and falshed thou shalt not fynd them a sonder . Euen so in any point els , thou shalt not bring them together . wherfore now because we haue hitherto spent some more tyme then neded , in an errour so plaine , and yet not halfe so much , as the foolishe falshed therof wold require , if it shuld be fully declared , looke if he haue ought els , that semeth to the any thing more to mainteine or make for his euill purpose then this , bringe it forth , and thou shalt here what I will say to it .

Cap. 11. HERE .

Me thinke sir , he hath , for all this , in a certeyne place , such a strong reason for his purpose herein , as all the world can not auoyde .

CATH.

what so euer it be , thou maiest yet , by this that is passe , bee sure of one of these two , that either it is not trew in dede , or els although it be , yet it maketh nothing for hym .

HE.

By that reason , it can make nothinge for him , whether it by trew or false .

CATH.

That can be no lie , for there is no trewth , that can trewly make with falshed .

HERE .

Yet ye shall here what it is .

CATH.

With a good will .

HERE .

In the .iii. leafe of his boke euen these be his wordes ,

And first that it is ( he saieth ) none article of our feith necessary to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion , maie thus be farther confirmed . The same feith shall saue vs , which saued the olde fathers before Christes incarnacion : But they were not bound vnder peine of damnacion to beleue this poynt . Therfore it shall folow , that we are not bound therto vnder peine of damnacion . The first part of mine argument , is proued by saint Austen ad Dardanum : And I dare boldly say almost in an hundreth places . For there is I thinke no proposicion , whiche he dothmore often inculcat then this , that the same feith shall saue vs , which saued our fathers . The second part is so manifest , that it nedeth no probacion : for how could they beleue that thing , which was neuer said nor done ? and without the worde they could haue no feith , vpon the treuth of these two partis must the conclusion nedis folow . Now sir , how say ye to this gere ?

CATH.

Countreiman , as thou saiest , it is perchaunce after the iudgement of some , a great and sore reason . But yet I promise the one thing , it semeth to the no more trew , then it is well known to me , to be very false , specially as he dooth vnderstand it , and as thou shalt find it , if thou herken well to me . And for the sure and perfect triall therof , Thou must first consider this , that Logike is a certaine .

HERE .

Nay then we haue it , and ye come in with Logike ▪

CATH.

What softe , thou doest interrupt my tale , as though thou mightest not abide the hering of it .

HERE .

Tushe sir Logyke , what shuld Lohike dooe here ▪

CATH.

A , I know what thou meanest well enough . And therfore hold thy peace a while , tyll I haue tolde the , Logike . what I meane . For Logike ( I say ) is a certaine arte , which doeth teache a compendious waie to discerne the veritee of a thing , from the falsitee , and that can not bee doone , excepte both bee knowen . Therfore among all other thingꝭ , there is for the purpose inuented a certaine argument , which is made and formed of three partis . And of the which three , the firste and the seconde are called in schooles , two proposicions , the more and the lesse . And when those two , in their conuenient kinde be both trew , and trewly knitte together , then the third part , which of them bothe , must needes folow , and is called the conclusion , can neuer be false . And againe , when any of those two proposicions be false , or not trewly knit together , the conclusion , which shuld folow , can by them , neuer be trew . This argument also , when the first part , and the second is trew , wherof their necessarie conclusion must nedes bee trew also , it is called them a Syllogismus . Sillogismus . Sophisticacion . And when any of them both be false , for the which their intended conclusion , can by them neuer be trew , it is then called a Sophisticacion . So that betwene Logike and Sophistrie , there is in this case no difference , but vnder one aparent maner and forme , the one holdeth the veritee , and the other the falsitee . Therfore this facultee , art , or cunning of Logike , I dare wel saie , there is no iust louer of trewth , but wil iudge it very necessary to be had , when it is but the iust trial of trewth it selfe . And yet is it a thing , which in special , some teachers doe vtterly forbid , and cry out vpon . But that wold they neuer doe , if their teaching were good & trew . For who be thei , that teache a doctrine , and forbiddeth their disciples the iudgement of such , as can best skill to discerne what it is , but onely fals harlotes , which goe about to deceiue .

HERE .

Sir wherfore speake you all this ?

CATH.

Trewly euen for the schoole , that thou art of . For haue you not brought the name of Logike and philophie so farre in sclander of subtile and craftie deceite , among no small sorte of suche as knoweth it not , that they doe now suspecte , and refuse the iudgement of a man so much the more , as they thinke or heare tell , that he is learned therin . But 〈◊〉 this your 〈◊〉 doiyng , how great is your shame , in the iudgement of such , as dooe well perceiue it ? And yet how like is all that shame , in respect of this , that the very same maie well be founde and proued in you , which ye trie so sore vpon all your disciples , most cheiflie to shunne and beware of in other ? that is to saie , sophisticall subtiltee , as though ye medled nothing withal your selfes , when ye practise & vse almost nothing els ? And that is the cause why , that ye forbede your scholers the hering of such as know it , lest by them they shuld learne to espie and perceiue your falshed , whiche ye wold haue renne and ●…eepe still in the darke , vnto the time it might put out all the light .

Cap. 12. HERETICVS .

Sir I pray you geue me leue , we goe about the 〈◊〉 of Frithes matter , therfore , what is all this to that purpose ?

CATH.

Doest thou not perceiue ?

HERE .

No trewly . For he neuer vsed any suche thynge as ye speake of .

CATH.

No did ? Shall I nede to reherse vnto thee ( whiche doest knowe it so well ) how he doothe exclame and crie against sophisters and sophistrie almoste in euery corner of his booke , and yet plaieth none other , but the same parte hym selfe ? For inquire thou of any ●●n , that can shall therof , and if he dooe not saie , that this , whiche thou hast now rehersed of Frithes owne woordes , is the selfe same scholasticall and sophisticall argument , which I haue here discribed vnto thee , and is daily vsed in the scholes , take me for no better then , ( I saie ) he is . How be it , I dooe not meane , that it is the same argument , whiche is daily vsed in schooles , when it holdeth the verite● : but vtterly the same , when it holdeth the falsitee , onely with these two differences , that in the schooles it is put in latine where he putteth it here in english and againe them it is but a feigned falshed , to teache me● to be were of it : And here it is an ernest falshed , to teache men to be deceiued with it . And to proue this that I saie to be trewe , First I shall not nede to bid thee , beare his argument wel in minde , which hast here rehersed it vnto me thy selfe . Therfore if thou marke it wel the whole pith of it , doth rest vpon the saiing of saint Austen , whiche as 〈◊〉 doeth allege him , is this , ( The same feith shall saue vs whiche ●aned the olde fathers before Christes incarnation Now if saint Austen had not said , the same feith , but an other feith shall saue vs . &c. it had bene vtterly nothyng for Frithes purpose . Therfore thou maiest playnly see thy selfe , that all the weight of the matter , dooth lie in this woorde . The same . Wherfore let vs now ●●…e ●●…rder , what maner of worde this is , and whether it bee apte to builde a good argument vpon , or not .

HERE .

That is but reason .

CATH.

then tell me trewly , what thynge thou arte .

HERE .

What thynge am I ? what shoulde I bee but a man ?

CATH.

And am I any other thynge then that ?

HERE .

No that is plaine .

CATH.

Then am I the same that thou art , and thou the same that I am . But what so euer the same that I am , dooth , I dooe : And what so euer the same that thou art , doeth , thou doest . Therfore it muste nedes folowe , that what so euer thou doste , I dooe , and what so euer I dooe , thou dooste , because thou art the same that I am , and I the same that thou arte .

HERE .

Naie sir , that will not folowe .

CATH.

Why so ?

HERE .

Because you take this woorde ( the same ) other wise then I ment . For although we be eche the same that other is in nature , we doe yet differ in person : for ye bee one persone , and I an other : And not the same that you be , nor you the same that I am . Therfore your artes bee not mine : nor mine yours .

CATH.

Yet thou thy selfe , when thou were first borne , were the same in nature , and the same in person then , that thou art nowe , and the same nowe that thou were then .

HE.

That I graunt .

CATH.

But thou were then , not one yarde longe . Therfore no more thou arte nowe , when thou art now the same that thou were then .

HERE .

What sir yet againe ? It is two thynges to be the same in nature and person : and to bee the same in quantitee . Therfore ye maie be sure , that I ment not so nother .

CATH.

Then thou or I , were deceiued ageine in this woorde ( the same ) .

HERE .

That is trew .

CATH.

Yet that quantitee of thyne excepte , thou wilte graunt thy selfe to be now , the same that thou were then .

HERE .

Yea that excepte .

CATH.

And then thou coudest nother speake nor goe . wherof it foloweth , no more thou canst do nowe , while thou art nowe the same that thou were then .

HERE .

Tushe , syr after this maner , ye might reason also of myne age , and my knowlage , with all other powers and qualitees besyde , when ye maie be sure , I dooe not so meane .

CATH.

Then tell me this , were not all englishe people an hundreth yeres paste , bounde to the lawe of this lande , and we nowe liuynge ? also to the same .

HERE .

That is no doubte .

CATH.

Go to nowe , and take hede what I saie : we be bownd to the same law now , that thei were , whiche liued an hundreth yeres paste . But thei that were liuyng an hundreth yeres paste , were not bounde to the statutes and artes of the laste parliament . Therfore it foloweth , no more be we nowe : excepte thou wilt saie , thei be no partes of the lawe : and then we bee not bounde to them nother .

HE.

Sir we be bounde to the law that our elders were , & thei to the same that we be . But this is vnderstande the same in generall , that is to saie , the lawe of Englande , without any respecte of partes . For it was none other , nor no lesse , then the law of Englande , whiche thei were bounde to : nor it is no other , nor no more then the lawe of Englande nother , whiche we are bounde to . Therfore when it is no more , nor lesse , nor yet none other , it muste nedes be the same ( as I saide ) in respecte of the whole generally , and not the same in respecte of the partes specially , by as many actes and statutes as hath bene sens , for considerations added vnto it mo then was than . Therfore your argument is false , and can not holde .

Cap. 13. CATH.

Countrey man , I can thee thanke , for without question thou speakest herein very well : and therfore marke what I shall saie vnto thee , when it is so , that this woorde ( the same ) is of a significacion so ambiguous & incertaine , that a thyng maie be saide the same in nature , and not the same in person , or the same in them both , and not the same in quantitee , or the same in al three , and not the same in power , or the same in one qualitee , and not the same in an other : or the same in generall , and not the same inspeciall : or the same in all these , & yet not the same in many cases mo beside : when a thyng ( I saie ) maie be called the same , and yet not the same , in so many respectis , why did not Frith with al his sophistrie ( ageine the which he barked so sore , & yet vsed nothyng more ) why did he not consider all this in the woorde , and put awaie the doubtful vnderstandyng , and ambiguite therof , before he made therupon his argument ? Seing it might chaunce to be ( as of him it is ) taken otherwise , then the author of the worde , did meane or intende ? for either he knew , or he knew not , that he shuld so dooe , or els take it for no ground or principle to dispute vpon : if he did not know it , that is to sai , if he did not know , that a conclusion can not be proued by any principle , whiche is incertaine : doubtles he was them to blinde a teacher , to be beleued of any man , specially in so great and weightie a mater as this is . For all men knowe , it is against both nature & reason , to come to suerte , by incertitude . Agein of the other parte , if he did know it , & yet wold ( as he did ) tumble forth his argument neuertheles : what other thing could moue him so to do , but only wilful malice & falshed . For be it in case , that I perceiued a woorde or a sentence , the sence wherof : were doubtfull and incertaine ( for the which no treuth therupon were probable ) and yet before the ambiguitee therof were put awaie , wold grounde mine argument vpon the same : what could cause me so to do , but onely to make men thinke , I proue that I proue not , And so make them beleue , that thei ought not . For the intent of eueri ernest argument , is alwai to cause the conclusion to be graunted , whether it be trew or fals . Therfore what motiue therof canst thou finde , in who so euer so doth , but euen a malicious intencion to deceiue other ? Wherfore , whether blind ignorance , or els this wilful malice , were the cause why , that Frith did builde his argument vpon this flitting foundacion , I leaue it partly for this time , to thine owne iudgement . For of the one , or the other , I am sure thou canst not excuse him

HE.

Yes sir , he might chaunce ( as many men do ) purposly put foorth an argument , taken of an incerteine principle , to here what wold be said vnto it .

CATH.

Nay nay my frende , that is not it , that can excuse him . For although that , be somtime vsed in schooles , to the intent it might by that , be lerned , where the falsitee of such argumentes doth rest : yet questionles Frith had here no such purpose . For he did not put it forth , to see what wold be said to the contrarie , or that it shuld be lerned , where the deceite of it laie . But his intent was onely by the craftines therof , to draw men into his false and wicked opinion . The which he held so vehemently to be trew , that he laied thervpon , no les wager , them his owne selfe , both body & soule : the losse of the which , without faile , is no les like in both , then it is wel known , to be sure in the one : how be it that shall passe , to come to our purpose againe , whiche is to shew , the great falshed of him in his argumente .

For who but he , wolde as who saie , so hedlyng at a venture iudge sainte Austen ( when he saith , the same feithe shall saue vs , whiche saued the olde fathers ) to mene the same feith in respect of euery particular point distinctly , and not the same onely in respect of the whole together confusely . For these two consideracions dooe much differ in euery thyng . And that wonderous plainly in the law , as thou didst euen nowe declare thy selfe . For in the consideracion and respect of the whole , confusely to gether , it is euen the same now , that it was an hundreth yeres past , & was euen then the same that it is now : that is to say , the lawe of England now , and none other then : the lawe of Englande then , and none other nowe . whiche worde dooeth signifie , all the whole thinge to gether more or lesse without any difference or respecte of any speciall partes at all . For when thou hearest it spoken , it dooeth put the no more in mynde of any one parte , then of any other . but of the vnitee of them all together , which , the name dooeth onely signifie . But the consideracion of the same in partes distinctly , dooeth differ farre from that . For in respect therof , it is not euen the same now , that it was an hundreth yeres paste , nor the same then , that it is now , by all the actes and statutes , which hath bene added vnto it since , and yet can it not folowe but that it is the same lawe in general stil , for al the new partis , which it had not before . Also a tree , being full of new leaues , twigges , braunches , & bowes , is yet the same tree , that it was , yeres past before thei spronge out of it : but how the same ? the same in respect of the whole , which is but one . And not the same in respect of the partis which are many . For some partes be new , but so are not al. yet before the new partis were sprong out of it , it was none other , nor yet no lesse then the same tree , that it is afterwarde : & afterward none other nor yet no more , then the same tree , that it was before . Therfore as the tree , full of new partis , is euen the same tree , that it was before : and yet not the same in euery pointe . And as the lawe of this lande , is euen the same law now , that it was an hundreth yeres paste , and yet not the same in euery point . Euen so is the feith of Christe now , the same that it was before his incarnacion , that is to saie , the feith of Christe then , and the feithe of Christe now , all one and the same , in respect of the whole ( wherof it beareth the name , without respect of any numbre of partes more or lesse ) but yet not the same in respect of euery point , without any maner of difference perticularly . Wherfore suppose thou in it , but euen one perticular difference , and tell me then , where is all Frithes argument become : When , for any thynge that is in it els , euen the feith of this blessed sacrament , might well be the same , which he laboureth so sore to ouerthrowe .

Cap. 10 HERE .

An argument sir ye know right well , is not to bee auoided by supposicions or coniectures , but by probable and manifest reasons . And therfore if ye can proue any such particular difference betwene the olde fathers feith before Christes incarnacion and ours nowe , wherof it must nedes folow , that saint Austens wordes can not be so vnderstande , as you saie Frith doth take them , I wot then what I haue to do .

CA.

Without faile there be diuers differences , not onely to sure to be doubted in , but also to manifeste & open to be inquired of . For had the olde fathers before Christes incarnacion beleued in euery particular pointe of the feithe as we dooe : that is to saie , beleued his blessed birth , passion , resurrection , and ascencion to be doone and paste , as we dooe : and we to come as thei did : Euen so farre differ we eche from other , that it had els ben damnable , bothe of their parte , and ours to . Also there was conteined in their feithe diuers sacramentes , whiche we haue not in ours . And lykewise in ours , whiche thei had not in theirs , and that the chiefe of eche parte . Ageyne , their feithe , beyng much hid , and couered with so many figures , darke shadowes , and misticall prophecies , as in maner the whole course of scripture dooth testifie that it was : who therfore wolde not see it to be then , but obscure , grosse and confuse , in respecte of the pure distincte clerenesse , whiche ours tooke , by the very commynge of our sauiour Christe hym selfe , and the predicacion of his gospell ? And what was that same obscuritee , but as who saie , a coueryng of many poyntes together confusely , whiche the new bright splendour of Christe , did open and shewe distinctly ? wherby it maie well appere , that their feithe and ours , coulde not bee throughly lyke and bothe one , in euery pointe perticularly . More ouer there is no doubte , but that there were many good and faithfull folke , of the commune people of the Iewes , beside the prophets . Neuertheles , we maie not thinke , that thei had the feith in suche maner as the prophettes had them selfes ( whiche were therwith immediately inspired of god ) that is to saie , not so clerely , so specially , and so distinctly as thei had , but much more obscurely , grosly , & confusely : By reason wherof it is plain , that their feith conteined many thynges moe then thei were ware of them selfes , the which thinges were yet not so hid & vnknowne to the prophettes that taught them . Furthermore it is not to be thought , that eche of the prophets had it lyke distinctly nother . When some of them be called more , and some lesse , as the cause wherof , doeth well apere by their woorkes , of the whiche , some one is farre more large then diuers of the reste together : God shewed not distinctly & apertly , all to eche of them , but some to one , and some to an other . Yet we may not saie , that he , or any of the commune people , which were feithfull , had for all that , any lesse then altogether confusely . For who so euer , at the least waie , hath it not so , doubtles hath rightlie therof , nothyng at all : because the trewthe of the whole feithe ( as I shewed the yester daie ) is priuely hid and conteined in euery parte of it . Finally , as the maner of hauynge the feithe , differd betwene the prophets and the common people of the Iewes then : so dooth it not onely betwene their tyme and ours , but also betwene some one sorte , and an other , of vs euen nowe . For there is no doubte , but the plowman hath now the same feithe , whiche hath the doctour of diuinitee , and the doctour , the same that he hath , that is to saie , the feithe of Christe : but yet farre vnlike . For where the plowman hath it in maner but grosly and confusely : the doctour hath it more specially and distinctly . And therfore in the plowmans confuse feith : doubtles there bee many mo speciall articles and misteries conteined , then he is ware of him selfe , whiche be not vnknowne to the doctour : Yet neuerthelesse , vnto the belefe , as well of them , as of the residewe , the plowman is no lesse bownde , ( for all that he is not ware of them ) then is the doctour of diuinitee with his presise knowlage . For the same feithe shall saue the one , which saueth the other : Although thei haue it not bothe lyke , but with great difference . Therfore when the feith betwene the fathers and vs , hath by reason of tyme , taken one difference , and that suche as thei could not haue bene saued , beleuyng in euery poynt as we doe , nor we beleuyng as thei did . And when it hath also taken an other difference in thynges , no lesse then very sacramentes , and that of the chiefe of bothe partes . And besyde all that , when there is betwene their feith and ours suche a difference in the maner of hauyng of it , that it maie bee saied , thei had the same and not the same that we haue : and we the same and not the same that thei had , because that , whiche thei had more grosly confusely , and obscurely , we haue it more particularly , distinctly and manifestly . Saint Austen ( thou maiest well knowe ) when he saieth , ( as Frith dooth allege hym ) the same feithe shall saue vs , whiche saued the fathers , neuer ment ( as Frith dooth falsely vnderstande hym ) the same feithe in euery condicion perticularly , but the same , in respecte of the whole confusely , that is to saie , the feith of Christe generally , without any distincte consideracion of partes . As a man doth ofte tymes speake or thinke of money , without any consideracion of this coine or that , or how many diuers coynes bee conteined vnder the generall name of moneie . As there hath bene sometyme fewer , and sometyme mo , and yet the generall name therof , no more , no lesse , nor none other , but alwaies one and the same .

Capitulo . 15. HERE .

Sir yet still , I dooe somewhat maruaile , how ye knowe , that Frith ( as ye saie ) dooth vnderstande sainte Austen to meane the same feithe in euery condicion perticularly .

CATH.

And I doe meruaile also , how thou cowdest els fynde whiche waie saint Austens woordes might so much as seme , any thynge to sounde to his purpose . For if he had vnderstande saint Austen to meane , the same feithe , with any difference , Then the same difference might haue bene in this holy sacrament , as well as in any thynge els . And where had Frithes purpose ben then ? Therefore thou maiest easely perceiue , that he vnderstandeth hym to meane , without any difference at all . For if he had vnderstand so muche , and no more difference , betweene the fathers feithe and ours , but euen onely as is in the diuers maner of hauynge therof : that is to saie , of our parte , the particular , distinct , and pure clerenesse of it ( whiche it tooke through the blessed comyng of Christe , and of their parte , the grosse and confuse obscuritee of it ( wherin it was before that same light of the worlde came forthe & shewed his beames abrode ) there were no doubte , but it wolde thereof well folowe ( as the trewthe is in deede ) that this holy sacrament , as well as the sacrament of baptisme , with many other thingꝭ moe , was then in their feith , although not manifeste , as nowe in ours , but obumbrat , couered and hid , with the shadow of that clowdie season . Accordyng to the woordes of the apostle , saiyng : ● . Co. 1● Our fathers were al vnder a clowde : which clowd had ben to them no clowde at all , if euery particular parte of our feith , whiche was conteined in theirs , had ben so distinctly had and knowne of them , as it is of vs : yet thei had the same feith that we haue : how be it ( as I saide ) after an other maner . For if we should be bownde to the belefe of no mo thynges perticularly , then were open and manifeste to them before Christes most glorious incarnacion , because the same feithe shall saue vs , whiche saued them then : it must therof clerely folow , that either our sauiour Christe him selfe brought with him no more light of the feithe , that is to saie , he reueled no mo secretis therof , necessarie for our saluacion , then were open and knowne before . Or els if he did ( by Frithes no reason ) we are not bownde to beleue them : what wicked person wold beleue or thinke any of them both , beside Frith ? I must nedes excepte hym , because it so foloweth of his owne doctrine . Therfore where the maner of scholes is this , that he whiche maketh an argument , must to confirme the same , proue the partes therof particularly by them selfes , whiche forme and maner Frith doth here sophistically pretend to imitate : And for the profe of his first parte , he hath no more but his allegacion of saint Austen falsly vnderstande , which maketh for him euen therafter , as thou hast herde , I will now to the second parte of his argument , to see what profe he maketh of that : except thou hast yet any thyng els to saie more in this .

HE.

Nothing syr , that I wil yet declare , till I here what ye wil saie to the reste .

Cap. 16. CATH.

Then the second parte of his argument ( thou knowest ) is this , that the fathers before Christis incarnacion , were not bound vnder pein of damnacion to beleue this point of the holy sacrament . Which parte ( he saith ) is so manifest , that it nedeth no probacion , and two causes why , he dooth allege , wherof the one is , that in their time it was neuer said . And the other is , that it was neuer done . For without the woorde ( he saith ) thei coulde haue no feith . Therfore quickely to dispatche the one of them , if he will haue it folowe , that the fathers before Christes incarnacion were not bownde to beleue it , because it was neuer doone in their time : by the same reason it muste nedes folowe , that their were not bownde to beleue , the birthe of Christe , his death , his resurrection , nor his ascencion . For those thynges were neuer done in their tyme nother . Wherfore if thei were not bounde to beleue those articles , it muste also nedes folowe therof , that we are not bounde to beleue them neither , because the same feithe shall saue vs whiche saued them .

HERE .

Sir although these thynges were not doone in their time , yet thei were doone sence .

CATH.

So was the holy sacrament to . Therfore what is that to Frithes purpose ? he speaketh of their tyme , and not of any tyme sence . For he goeth aboute to take awaie , our bonde of belefe in the holy sacrament , because ( as he saith ) the fathers before Christes incarnacion were not bounde to beleue it . And thei were not bownde to beleue it ( he saith ) because it was neuer done in their time . And I saie , no more was Christes birth , his passion , his resurrection , nor his ascencion nother . Wherfore ( by his doctrine ) the fathers were not bownde to beleue them . And by the same rule no more are we , because the same feith shall saue vs , whiche saued them . Therfore is not this , that it was neuer doone in their tyme , one good cause why , that this seconde parte of his argument nedeth no probacion ? as it nedeth not in deede .

For without fayle it is plaine euil enough , without any probacion at all . And nowe therfore to his other cause , whiche is this , that it was neuer saide in their time : what muste folowe therof ?

HERE .

As Frithe dooth saie , that thei were not bownde to beleue it . For without the woorde ( he saith ) thei coulde haue no feithe .

CATH.

Then if he will haue it folow , that the fathers were not bownde to beleue it , because it was neuer saide in their tyme , will it folowe therof , that we are not bownde to beleue it , when we haue not onely herde it saide in our tyme , but also haue it in dede ?

HERE .

Ye syr , for the same feithe shall saue vs whiche saued them .

CATH.

Then if we bee not bownde to beleue it , because the same feithe shall saue vs , whiche saued theim , and thei were not bownde to beleue it , because thei neuer herde of it : it muste also by the same reason folowe , that thei were not bownd to beleue any of those thynges , whiche our sauiour Christe , and all his disciples did preache and teache , more then was saide before their commynge in those fathers daies : so that in all the gospels and the epistles , that is to saie , in all the newe testament , there is nothyng saide , necessarie for our saluacion , more then was saide , herde , and vnderstande , before the incarnacion of Christe in the fathers tyme : or els if there be : seeynge ( after this doctours mynde ) the fathers were neuer bownde to beleue it , because it was neuer saide in their tyme , and without the woorde ( he saith ) thei coulde haue no feithe , we nede not beleue it nother , because the same feithe shall saue vs whiche saued theim . is not this a goodly reason ? Farder more , how dooth this doctrine agree with the woordes of our sauiour Christe him selfe , where , to his disciples he saith : Blessed are your eares , Mat. 13. because thei dooe heare those thynges , whiche many prophettes and iuste men , greatly desyred to heare , and yet herde them not . Therfore what were those thynges , that made the eares of the apostles so happie and blessed in the hearyng of them , but the saiynges of Christe ? And why were those prophettes and iuste men desyrous to here them , and herde them not : but because thei were neuer saide in their tyme ? Therfore thei were not bownde to beleue them , and consequently no more are we nother , because the same feithe shall saue vs , whiche saued them . Take good hede , for this doctour will make thee a good christen man , if thou marke and herken well to him . For if our sauiour Christe spake any thynges , of more worthinesse and profite then other , doubtles those prophettes and iuste men , were moste desyrous to here them , and yet herde them not . But the cause why was this , that thei were neuer saide , in their time . Wherfore thei were not bounde to beleue the moste worthie and profitable thynges , that euer Christe spake : and no more are we nother , because the same feithe shall saue vs whiche saued them . Also the chiefe thynges that euer Christe taught , are the chiefe thynges that apperteine to the helth of mans sowle . But those thynges were thei , that made the eares of his apostles blessed in their herynge of them . And those thynges were thei , that many prophets and iuste men desyred to here , and herde them not . Wherfore those prophets and iuste men were not bownde to beleue , the chiefe thynges that euer Christe taught for the helthe of mans sowle : Because thei were neuer said in their time . And therfore no more are we bownde to beleue them nother , because the same feith shall saue vs , whiche saued them .

Cap. 17. HERE .

Syr ye make ( me thinke ) more adoe of the matter then nedeth :

CA.

Naie then tell me how much tyme shuld I spende , if I shuld not refrain til I had shewed thee , all suche abhominable inconueniences , as muste nedes folowe , of these firste two partes , of his sophisticall argumente ? Wherfore , of the thirde parte , whiche is the conclusion , thou nedest not doubte what it is : And therfore because thou hast sufficiently herde , how well he hath proued the partes therof : Beholde nowe the whole together , after the same forme and maner as he doth put it : And see how it will appere in an other article or two . ¶ The same feithe ( he saith ) shall saue vs , whiche saued the olde fathers before Christes incarnacion . But thei were not bownde vnder peine of damnacion , to beleue , that the sacrament of baptisme is a sacrament . Therfore it shall folowe , that we are not bownde therto , vnder the peine of damnacion . The first parte of myne argument is proued , by saint Austen ( after Frithes vnderstandyng ) Ad dardanum . &c. The seconde parte is so manifeste , that it nedeth no probacion . For how coulde thei beleue that thyng , whiche was neuer saide nor doone : And without the woorde thei could haue no feithe . Vpon the trewth of these two partis , muste the conclusion needes folow : whiche is this : That we are not bounde to beleue that the sacramente of baptisme is a sacrament . And euen by the same argument , that the blessed sacrament of the aulter , is not so much as a sacrament nother , as of his own wordis I proued vnto thee before : so that , although we are ( as euery man knoweth ) bownde all , vnder peine of damnacion , to receiue the sacrament of baptism , yet we be not bounde to beleue it : that is to saie , we are not bounde to beleue the same thynge , whiche we are bounde to receiue , when the iuste rule is this , that loke of what necessitee the thing is to be had , of the same necessitee , it is to be beleued . But thou maist see , what a feith this mans argument techeth vs , so new and strange , as I dare wel saie , neuer trew christen man was aqueinted withal , or the lyke . And yet let vs beholde , the patterne therof once againe in an other case : and so blisse vs cleane from it for euer . The same feith shall saue vs , whiche saued the olde fathers before Christis incarnation : But the Iewes dispersed now in Christendom ( as in Roome , Venice , and in other places ) haue the same feithe , whiche the olde fathers had before Christes incarnacion . Therfore it shall folowe , that the same feithe shall saue vs , whiche the Iewes hath nowe . The firste parte of myne argument , ( after Frithes vnderstandynge ) is proued by saint Austen ad dardanum . &c. The seconde parte is so manifeste , that it nedeth no probacion : for the credence of so many , no light persons , but of sobre wittes and good lernyng bothe , as hath come from Roome , Venice , and other places ( where many of the Iewes be nowe abidyng ) and hath made reporte here amonge vs , not onely of their feith to be of the olde testament , whiche was the olde fathers feith , but also of their excedyng diligence wherwith thei cesse not to kepe and obserue the same , and the ceremonies therof , so muche as thei maie , instructyng , teachyng , and bringynge vp their children in such maner therin , that thei be thought more prompte , readie , and perfecte in the letter of the olde testament , at .xvi. or .xviii. yeres of age , then the moste parte of our studentes be at thirtie . The credence ( I saie ) of those so many graue and sad persons commyng from where those Iewes bee , and reportyng these thynges of them , with muche and many other moe concernyng the same , dooth shew an argument ineuitable , that thei haue nowe the same feithe , whiche the olde fathers had before Christes incarnation , specially when in their faste holdynge and kepynge therof , dooth consiste all their great hope , and whole truste of pleasynge god to their saluacion . Wherfore vpon the trewthe of these two partes , muste the conclusion nedes folowe . whiche is euen this , that the same feith , which the Iewes hath now , shall saue vs : that is to say , without batisme , without the beliefe that our sauiour Christ is come , or hath suffered death , or hath risen againe , or hath ascended to heauen , of the which , they beleue not so much as any one . Iudge now thy selfe , whether this bee of trew Logike , or of deceiueable Sophistrie : yea rather of very trew feith , or abhominable heresie : Is it not a proper argument , which can so trie our dewtie in euery article , from one to an other , that without parill of damnation we maie leue our beliefe of them altogether ? For surely , and without any doubt , loke how much it maketh ageinst this article , which he wold ouerthrow , if he might : Euen so much it maketh not onely ageinst many moe directly , but also against them altogether consequently . If it make nothing against all ( as I saide before ) without faile no more doth it against this one : For any thing against this one , and so much against all : Nothing against all , and as litle against this .

Cap. 18. HERE .

Well sir , we haue enough of this . And therfore I pray you , let vs here what he bringeth more of saint Austen in other places .

CATH.

Some reason thou semest to require . But yet I wolde first wit of thee , where he had these wordes of saint Austen , which he hath herein thus alleged alredy , and bosteth so much to make for his purpose ?

HERE .

He him selfe dooth tell you where , in that he saith ad dardanum , that is to say , in that epistle , which saint austen wrote to one Dardanus .

CATH.

Ye but when Frith dooth allege saint Austen in other places , he dooth allege him in his owne wordes as he wrote them at the first in latine , and after dooeth translate the same in to Englishe . And therfore why dooth he not here now , euen so likewise ?

HERE .

He doth allege him in Englishe .

CATH.

And why not also first in latine ?

HERE .

What nede that here , when th englishe is enough ?

CATH.

Why nedeth it not here , as well as in other places , where he dooeth both ?

HERE .

It nedeth not in any place , when th engleshe is as good , and dooeth serue the turne as well as the latine . Wherfore there is no matter in this . For it was but as it chaunsed him to dooe .

CATH.

Chaunsed him ? Nay my frende thou shalt not excuse hym so . For I will recite vnto the , saint Austens owne wordes of the same place my selfe , both in latine and also in Englishe . And then tell me how this Reynards allegacion therof , dooth agree withall . For the very wordes of saint Austen speking there , of the sacrament of babtisme , are in latine euen these .

Sacramentum porro regenerationis nostre , manifestum esse voluit manifestatus mediator : Erat autem antiquis iustis aliquid occultnm . Cum tamen & illi eadem fide salui fierint , quae fuerat suo tempore reuelanda . That is to saie , certeinly , the mediator made manifest , wolde the sacrament of our regeneracion to be manifest For there was something hidde from the old iust men : when for all that , they were saued by the same feith which was to bee reueled , when the tyme therof came . Now marke how Frithes allegacion agreeth with this . For he maketh it in these wordes : The same feith ( he saieth ) shall saue vs , which saued the olde fathers before Christes incarnacion : how dooeth this and the other , sound and agree ? dooeth saint Austen make here any mencion of Christes incarnacion ? any mencion of fathers any mencion of vs ? as this wilie pie dooth chatter and clatter vnto vs ?

HERE .

Sir although he doth it not directly in proper wordis , yet is it so implied in his saiyng , that it maie well bee gathered therof . For by those olde iust men , he ment the olde fathers . And by the same feith , he ment the feith that saueth vs sence Christis incarnacion . So that all this ( I saie ) maie well be gathered of his saiyng . And according to the same , Frithe dooeth here allege him :

CATH.

Although thou saiest in Frithes behalfe , as much as can be said for him , yet thou must nedes graunt , that the same , that Frith doth here allege , is not the very wordes of saint Austen , but Frithes owne gathering therof , as he him selfe doth take them .

HERE .

What of that ?

CATH.

I shall tell the what , thou hast herde enough to perceiue , that his gathering is not of saint austens meaning . wherfore it can not be auoided , but he doth here allege saint Austen in that , which saint Austen neuer said , nor ment , when he doth allege him nother in his wordes , as he spake them , nor yet in the sence , that he ment them , but vnder pretence therof , in his owne proper meaning , according to his false dreamyng and nothing els .

HERE .

Nay sir and ye go so to worke , I must nedes looke better vpon the matter . For where ye saie he doth not allege saint Austens wordes , that is not so . For although he dooth not allege them all , yet he dooth allege some of them .

CATH.

Thou saiest well therin ▪ For in dede some of a mans wordes , maie so be handled without the rest , that they are enough to inuert and ouerthrow the very right sence of al the whole tale . And therfore what wordis of saint Austens be those that he dooth here allege ?

HE.

That are these : thei wer saued ( saith S. Aus . ) by the same feith and the same feith ( saith Frith ) shal saue vs .

CA.

Callest thou this an allegation of a mans words , which shuld alway bee , but a iust rehersall or a veritall therof , is witnesse , proue , or confirme an other thinge by ? For to that purpose , all trew men dooe euermore vse it , and none otherwise . But here thou seest no rehersall at all , but onely an other distinct saiyng : and so distinct , that it differeth in words , it differeth in order , it differeth in sence , it differeth in tyme , it differeth in person , and almost in euery condicion : so that it may well be denied to be any of saint Austens minde . In so much , that if Frith had le●●e out , p●● in , or chaunged , but a worde of sainte Austens saiying , he had yet made therin , but a false allegacion . Wherfore now , 〈◊〉 he changeth in maner no lesse then all together , what shall we saie , but that , vnder the onely colour and pretence of an allegacion , he dooeth falsly belie saint Austen , and nothing els ?

HERE .

Sir that foundeth but shrewdly , and therfore I pray you say not so .

CATH.

Why ●a●e not I saie so , as well as he dooeth is ? For dooeth he not here●… father and forge the great profe of his purpose vpon saint Austen ? And yet what one word hath he here of saint Austens saiyng but onely this , that he saieth , the same feith ? whiche he taketh nother in the same sence , nor order ●●ther , that saint Austen speaketh it in . And therfore dooeth he not lie vpon him , when he saith his purpose maie be proued by him ▪ for what can a worde or wordes proue , when they make no perfit sentence ? and what perfit sentence maketh these wordis , They were saued by the same feith ? But wottest thou why , he handleth the matter after this sort ?

HERE .

Why say you ?

CATH.

I shall tell the. Frith toke this place of S. Austen , as though it had bene like vnto a snaake : whose venim ( men saie ) is but in the head and the tayle : whiche beyng cutte away , the reste of the bodie maie well be eaten , as it is said , to be vsed in some countreis . And therfore according to the same , Frith perceiuing the head and taile of this place of saint Austen to be suche , as were enough and able to kyll and destroy the whole pith of his purpose altogether , did in his allegacion cutte them both cleane away : and yet he suspectinge that they wold , at the least , bee missed and asked for , if he shuld haue brought forth all the rest of his bodie , as it is , did also therfore cutte out therof , but this preatie peece ( the same feyth ) so litle , as wherby it shulde not bee knowen , of what kinde of bodie it was : And so , neither the head , nor the taile be looked for , nor missed nother . For if he had brought forth the whole rest of the bodie together , that is to say , the middle part as it is , and said thus as saint Austen doth ( they were saued by the same feith ) we muste nedes haue required the head of that bodie , and asked of him , which they ? For thou maist well perceiue , that saint Austen wold not haue said , they , ( which hath relacion to some other worde ) except he had put somewhat before , vnto the which he dooth referre it . And that was nothinge els , but ( as it apereth in his owne plaine wordes ) the old iust men , from whom ( he saith ) there was some thinge hidde . Ageyne likewise , we must haue required also the ta●●e of that bodie to , and haue asked of him , whiche same feith is that ? for this worde , the same , muste nedes bee referred to somewhat , before or after , or els it can haue no sence : And there is nothing before , that it can be referred vnto . wherfore it is declared by that , which commeth after , and that is the same feith , which ( as saint Austen saith ) was to be reueled , when the time therof came . Now for al that this is the principal place of saint Austen , wherin Frith hath his great and most singular trust , for the special defence and chefe profe of his foundacion , yet if there be any sparke of good will and wit in the at all , thou maiest clerely perceiue and see , not only how nothing it maketh for him , but also how cleane it maketh directly ageinst him , and ouerthrowth his purpose quite : ye and farder , how inuincibly it doth declare and proue that to be trew , which I haue said vnto the all reddy concerninge the same . For doubtlesse this is the place ( as he saith him selfe ) wherof he doth ( after his facion ) gather and saie , The same feith shall saue vs , which saued the old fathers before Christes incarnacion .

Where as saint Austen saith , ( if thou marke him well ) that they were saued , by the same feith , wherin was some thing hidde from them . And againe , by the same feith , which was to bee reueled , when the time therof came : whiche was not in their daies : but ( as he saieth ) when the mediator was made manifeste , and wolde the sacrament of our regeneracion to be manifest : And that was not before Christes incarnacion . Wherfore thou maiest now euen here perceiue , by the plaine wordes of saint Austen him selfe , directly against Frithes purpose how the old fathers feith and ours , dooth both differ , and not differ , not differ in respect of the whole , considered in generall : And yet much differre , in respect of the partis considered in speciall . For by the plaine wordes of saint Austen , there was some thinge hidde from them , that is not hidde from vs : And some thing reueled to vs , that was not reueled to them . And yet one and the same feith in respect of the whole confusely together : and not one , nor the same nother , in respect of the partes considered a sonder . Wherfore , of that which was hidde from them , and now reueled vnto vs , why may not this holy sacrament , with the beliefe therof be a part , as well as the sacrament of baptisme is : if there be no reason nor trewth to the contrary , as there is not in dede , where is Frithes foundacion become ? Therfore shall I nede now to aske the any more , why Frith doth not here allege saint Austens owne wordis , first in latine , and then in English , as he doth in other places , but leaueth them both cleane out as he doth ? I thinke thou seest the cause why well enough now thy selfe : If not , how saiest thou to such a felow as bringeth in a witnesse , and when the witnesse shuld speake , he will not suffre him to tell his tale ?

HE.

I saie he semeth not al the best .

CATH.

Nay , if he seme not to the , a very false harlot , yet will I saie plaine , that he is no lesse , when he trusteth more in the name of his witnesse , then in his tale .

HER.

As ye saie , there is somewhat in that .

CATH.

Then farder , how saiest thou to that felow , which in his cause , wolde pike out such a witnesse for him , as when he commeth to the hering , wolde and must nedes tell the tale cleane against him ?

HERE .

Mary sir , I say , he were a very foole to those his witnesse so .

CATH.

Yet may his witnesse be wise for all that . And therfore when the one of these felowes plaieth ( as thou saiest ) the false harlot , and the other the very foole , is it not here properly handled of Frith alone , to play no lesse , than both those partis in one ? And to haue S. Austen his witnesse in each of them to ?

HERE .

How so ?

CA:

First it apereth plaine , that S. Austen for his witnesse he bringeth in , and leueth his tale behinde him cleane , because he wold not haue that come to hering in no condicion : For els , he might haue brought them , both together , euen as well the one as the other . But that he wold in no wise dooe , because he knew the name of his witnesse , might in his cause seme to dooe somewhat , where as his very tale withall , could in dede dooe nothing , but mar altogether . And therfore to brag out the matter , forth he commeth with his bare witnesse whom he kepeth cleane in silence , as vntrustie to talke in his cause , while he telleth of his owne head , all the whole tale , and maketh vp the euidence him selfe . Wherfore because he faceth vs after this sorte , saiyng , The firste parte of mine argumente is proued by sainte Austen ad Dardanum . And I dare boldly saie almoste in an hundreth places . For I thinke there bee no proposicion , whiche he dooeth more often inculcate then this , that the same feith saueth vs , whiche saued our fathers .

I say , because he faceth vs after this sorte , with such a worthy credible witnesse , and yet , when all commeth to all , wolde not suffre vs , ( by his will ) to here him speake , nor him , as who saie , to tell his owne tale , nother in this named , nor yet in any other of those hundreth incertaine places beside , what shall we , or can we make of hym els , but euen as he maketh of him selfe , a very false harlot in deede ? And therfore as towchinge the other parte of his plaie ; what a foole was he , to chose saint Austen among all other , to bee his witnesse herein ? when there was none more vnmete for his purpose then he , as belike he did suspect , and yet wold haue him neuerthelesse , for his foolishe phansie : trusting that with the sound of his name to do somewhat : whereas with his whole saiyng he coulde doe nothynge : But yet not withstande all his great shifte made , to kepe hym from herynge , ( wherein he sheweth hym selfe as he is ) yet was he brought by meane vnto it at laste , and then tolde his tale so directly , against the peruers purpose of Frithes wicked folie , that nothyng could be saide more plaine to the contrarie , as thou hast nowe herde thy selfe alredie . Wherfore consider , that thou haste here nowe , for one pece of thy frendis falshed , suche a manifeste profe , as I dare saie nother thou , nor any frende that he hath beside , is able to caste any colour of excuse therupon : excepte it be , with tushe tushe , no no , or some other wriglynge and startlynge talke , from one thynge to an other , till vndiscussed the matter be wrapte vp euen all confusely together , as your common practise is alwaie to dooe : Therfore let this be sufficient , as it is in dede , to knowe what he is .

Cap. 19. HERE .

Naie sir not so . For he wolde not call it the very foundacion of all his matter , if he had not somewhat els , to make for hym then all this .

CA.

I praie thee what is that ?

HE.

No lesse then an other saiynge of saint Austen , whiche maketh as well for hym as any thyng that ye herde yet .

CA.

I thinke thou saidest not a trewer worde to daie .

HE.

Naie sir , I wot what you meane by that wel enough : but I meane this , that it maketh for him very wel .

CA.

Who wold beleue that , knowyng so much as thou hast herde ?

HE.

That is no matter saint Austens woordes ( he saith ) be these . As many as in that manna , did vnderstande Christe , did eate the same spirituall meate that we dooe . But as many as sought onely to fill and satisfie their hunger with that manna , did eate and are deade . And likewise the same drinke . For the stone was Christe .

CATH.

What I praie thee , will Frith make of this ?

HERE .

Mary sir ye shall here his owne woordes .

Here you maie gather ( he saith ) of saint Austen , that the manna was vnto them , as the breade is vnto vs . And likewise that the water was to them , as the wyne is to vs : whiche anone shall appere more plainly .

CA.

So it had nede . For he sendeth vs here to a gatherynge , wherin I see not what we can gather more trewly , then euen the same of him , that we haue gathered before .

HERE .

No sir , for he dooth alege , that saint Austen saith furder these woordes : Moyses also did eate manna , Aron , and Phinees did eate of it : and many other did there eate of it , whiche pleased god , and are not deade . Why so ? Because thei vnderstode the visible meate spiritually . Thei were spiritually an hungered , thei tasted it spiritually , that thei might spiritually be replenished : thei did all eate the same spirituall meate , and all did drinke the same spiritual drinke , Euen the same spirituall meate , albeit an other bodely meate . For thei did eate manna : and we eate an other thynge : but thei did eate the same spiritual , whiche we dooe . And thei all dranke the same spiritual drinke . Thei dranke one thynge , and we an other , but that was in the outwarde apparence : whiche for all that did signifie the same thing spiritually , how dranke thei the same drinke ? Thei ( saith the apostle ) dranke of the spirituall stone folowyng them , and that stone was Christe .

Now sir al this doth he allege of saint Austen .

CA.

Yea , but doest thou recite it trewly , as he doth allege it ?

HE.

Euen as he doth translate it out of latine into englishe , looke in his booke when ye will . And therfore what saie ye to it ?

CA.

This same I sai to it , that al this same difficultee of this same point , after this same maner , is put this same waie , clene out of doubte , if men take this same trewth , as it is in dede , that this same errour , of this same felow , made hym of this same blindnesse , that he was of this same iugement , that this same worde , the same : could none otherwise be vnderstande , but euen the same waie , that he thought the same shuld draw men , from the same feith , which al trew christen people doth holde , & bringe them into the same heresie , whiche the same Frith hym selfe doth teache . And all this same ( I saie ) did he , by reason of this same worde the same . For is he not as one in a maze , now in the same path , where he began ? And therfore euen iuste in the same case , that he was than ? For is there any other cause , why he doth allege these wordes of saint Austen , but that he saith thei did eate and drinke the same spiritual meate & drynke , that we dooe ? For what if saint Austen had put this worde : an other : in the place of this woorde the same ? or els had left them both cleane out ?

HE.

Sir that had ben an other matter : it had bene then , nothyng for Frithes purpose . And therfore he wolde not alleged it , if it had ben so .

CA.

Thou saist very trew . And therfore all that semeth herein , any thyng to make for him , thou maiest well perceiue , doth only reste ( as I saide ) in this same woorde , the same . And haste thou not herde enough , what a proper principle it is , beyng vndefined , to proue or conclude any thyng by ? Neuerthelesse , When Frith him selfe doth take this same spiritual meate and drynke , to be the bodie & bloode of Christe , as in the iiii . leafe of his booke , his owne wordes therof are these , This Abraham ( he saith ) did both eate his bodie and ' drynke his bloode , through feith . '

I wolde therfore wit of hym , whether he take the same meate , & drinke , to be only spiritual & not corporal : or els both spiritual & also corporal ?

HE.

He doth take it to be both , & so do I.

CA.

As how ?

HE.

Euen as he doth here allege of . S. Aust . that thei did eate manna , and we an other thing ? which thingꝭ are both corporal , wherein , that same , which thei did , and we dooe eate , is one spirituall meate : And therfore that , whiche thei did , and we dooe eate , is both spirituall and corporall .

CATH.

Thou plaiest Frith with me now in dede . For my question is one , and thou answerest me to an other . I aske not of their corporall meate , nor of ours nother , whiche to them was , and to vs is , subiecte to the eie , and other outwarde sences : but I aske onely of the spirituall meate , whiche was to them and is to vs ( as saint Austen saith ) all one and the same . Therfore whether that be onely spirituall , and not corporall , or els bothe corporall and spirituall , is my question .

HERE .

What if he saie it bee onely corporall , and not spirituall ?

CATH.

Then is he directly againste saint Paule in his firste epistle , and xv . chapiter to the corinthians .

HERE .

What if he saie it be onely spirituall , and not corporall ?

CATH.

Then he is directly against the veritee of Christes bodie . And therfore I wolde wit what he wolde saie to my question ?

HERE .

He wolde saie , it was spirituall in the olde fathers daies before th incarnacion : And now corporall .

CATH.

What , onely spirituall then , and onely corporall nowe ?

HERE .

Naie , onely spiritual then , and both spirituall and corporall nowe ? 1. Co. 15

CATH.

Then he can not denie , but that same meate , is both so , and otherwise nowe , then it was then , when it was then but onely spirituall , and now both spirituall and corporall .

HERE .

That I graunte .

CATH.

Therfore sith it is both so , and also otherwise nowe , than it was then : why shulde it not be so , and otherwise eaten now , than it was eaten then ? For it was not then , the same it is nowe , really in dede . And yet is it nowe , the same it was then , virtually in effecte . Wherfore there muste be a corespondence betwene the very present state of the meate , and the very eatyng therof euen nowe , as there was then . And therfore when saint Austen ( after the minde of the apostle ) speaketh here only of that eatyng , whiche is accordynge to the meate , as it was then virtually in effecte , and not of that eatynge , whiche is accordynge to the meate , as it is nowe really in dede : what maketh he for Frithes purpose ?

HERE .

It maketh for hym this : That as thei did eate the same spirituall meate , whiche we dooe nowe , and were saued by the belefe and feithe therof , as well as we are : so , Frith wolde haue it folow , that we are not bounde to beleue any other maner of eatyng of the same meate , beside the outwarde apparence , than thei were then , because the same feithe ( he saith ) saueth vs , whiche saued them .

CATH.

As touchynge the same feithe , thou haste herde enough alredie , of his foolishe and false vnderstandynge therof . And therfore to the reste . Trewe thou saiest , that he wolde haue it so folowe in dede , but by what rule ? by what congreuence ? by what reason ? is there any rule or reason other , to leade vs to this consequence , that because thei did eate the same spirituall meate that we dooe , we shulde not therfore bee bownde to the belefe of any other vsage , maner , or difference of eatynge that holy meate now , then thei were then , before Christes incarnacion , when the blessed meate in it selfe , is farre otherwise nowe , than it was then ? and when we haue also nowe , an other maner of doctrine taught vs , of Christe him selfe , concernyng the same , than euer thei had then ? how farre were this against reason ?

HERE .

Yet was it the same meate then , that it is nowe . And therfore the same nowe , that it was then .

CATH.

Trewe it is . And yet saie I , it was not then , as it is nowe , nor is not now , as it was then .

HERE .

How can that be ?

CA.

Very well . For as I tolde thee before , it was then onely spirituall and not corporall , but so it is not now . For now it is both spirituall and corporall , and so was it not then : wherfore as it maie bee saide , and was then , the same and not the same , that it is now : So it may be saide and is now , the same and not the same , that it was then : whiche is to bee vnderstande in the diuersitee of the respectes , that is to saie , of the spiritualitee , and the corporalitee . wherof saint Austen touchyng here but the one , Frith with the same , wolde deceiue vs in bothe . For els he wold or shulde haue made it first certaine , whether saint Austen did here meane the same spirituall meate , really in dede , or els the same but virtually in effecte , before he had attempted any conclusion therupon . And therfore because he doth now here againe , leue the certaintee of the meanyng of this fame woorde , the same , so doubtfull and indefined , as he did before , ( the whole pith of his purpose consistyng therin ) clere it is , that nothyng therof can iustly folowe , nor be certainly proued therby , as thou thy selfe haste sufficiently seene and herde alredy . How be it , the certaintee of a grownde , to reason vpon , is no matter with Frith .

For he will first conclude , what so euer he doth intende , And with an incertaine principle so make vp the ende , As though euen where in very dede , doth lie no lesse then all There were euen vtterly to be founde no matter at all . And while there be fewe , of whom this falshed is perceiued , Small wonder it is , though many be therwith deceiued . He asketh no more of al his diligent readers , But that thei shoulde be well waie of all those same sophisters : wdich will make them perceiue him , one of those same warrears , That are of all other , the chiefe spirituall murderars . Be ware of sophistrie , and sophisters , beware crieth he : Yet any one man that vseth it more , didst thou neuer see . And therfore euen now of hym , what a sophister finde we , But one of the very worste , that is possible to be ?

Cap. 21. HERE .

Sir that shall ye dooe . For consequently in the same . v. leafe of his boke , these be his wordes . Of those places ( he saieth ) you may plainly perceiue , not onely that it is none article necessarie to be beleued vnder peine of damnacion , seyng the olde fathers neuer beleued it , and yet did eate Christ in feith , both before thei had the manna , and more expresly through the manna : And with no lesse fruite after the manna was ceased . And albe it the manna was to them as the sacrament is to vs , and they eate euen the same spirituall meate that we dooe yet were they neuer so madde , as to beleue , that the manna was chaunged into Christes owne natural bodie : but vnderstode it spiritually , that as the outward man did eate the material manna , which comforted the bodie : so did the inwarde man through feith eate the bodie of Christ , beleuynge that as manna came downe from heauen and comforted their bodies : so shulde their sauiour Christ , which was promised them of god the father , come downe from heauen , and strength their soules in euerlasting life , redemynge them from their synne by his death and resurrection . And likewise dooe we eate Christe in feith , both before we come to the sacrament , and more expresly through the sacrament . And with no lesse fruite after we haue receiued the sacramente , and neede no more to make it his naturall body , then the manna was , but might muche better vnderstande it spiritually : that as the outwarde man dooeth eate the natural breade , whiche comforteth the bodie : so dooeth the inwarde man through feith eate the bodie of Christ , beleuing , that as the bread is broken , so was Christes bodie broken on the crosse for our synnes , whiche comforteth our soules vnto life euerlastinge . And as that feith did saue them , without beleueing that manna was altered into his body : euen so dooeth this feith saue vs : although we beleue not , that the substance of breadde is turned into his naturall bodie . For the same feith shall saue vs whiche saued them . And we are bound to beleue no more vnder peine of damnacion , then they were bounde to beleue .

Now sir this is part of his minde .

CA.

Thou saiest euen trewth . And therfore if thou marke it well ( somewhat after his owne wordes : thou maiest of this place plainly perceiue , not onely by the presence of this worde , not onely , but also by the absence of this worde , but also , that he at the first , intended to shewe vs two thinges . The one of the whiche , noted with this worde not onely , he hath here ( as thou seest ) declared all redy , But the other depending therupon , and ought to be noted with this worde , but also , he dooth vtterly passe ouer and let it cleane goe . For he renneth so wonderous faste , and can not tell whither , that he forgetteth the one ende of his tale , while he telleth vs the other : or els he doth purposely reserue and kepe it in store , till he speake with vs hym selfe , to shew vs that and more .

HERE .

Tushe sir ye doe but mocke him now .

CATH.

Why countreiman what woldest thou haue me do ? For to pitee him , thou knowest wel , it is to late : To praise him there is in dede no cause : To holde my peace in this matter were to farre ageinst conscience . And what remayneth , but alwaie to speake as he dooeth minister occasion ? Therfore where he saieth , that the old fathers were neuer so madde , as to beleue that the manna was changed into Christes owne naturall body : for what purpose doth he tel vs that , when euery man koweth it as wel as he ?

CA.

I shal tel you for what purpose : he wold haue vs take the bread as the fathers tooke the manna . And as they were neuer so madde , as to beleue that the manna was changed in to Christes owne naturall bodie : so he wold not haue vs so madde , as to beleue , that the substance of bread is changed into Christes naturall body nother . For the same feith ( he saith ) shal saue vs which saued them .

Cap. 22. CATH.

Thou saiest well , for that is his purpose in dede . And therfore as touching his principle of the same feith , I haue told the enough before . And as concerning this changeing he speaketh of , thou and I will talke therof at large , when we come to the place conuenient . Therfore now to this that he doth here accompte all those , which beleue , that the substance of the bread , by the operacion of the holy ghost , in the holy consecracion is changed into the very body of Christ , to be mad in so doing , who be thei ? but al Englishmen , Welshmen , Irishmen , Frenchmen , Scottes , Danes , Douchmen , Spaniardes , Portingales , Italians , with al other trew Christen nacions ? for doubtles al those dooe so beleue .

HERE .

Nay sir not all . For all can not be said , of Englishmen only : nor yet of diuers other perticular nacions beside . For some among them beleue otherwise .

CA.

And pretely spoken . For is it said amisse , that such and such feldes are all corne , because they are not eache of them without some and to much darnell in and amonge them ? what if there be founde such to many , as Frith was , among Englishmen ? and other trew Christen nacions beside ? doth that let the trewth of this , that all those nacions beleue otherwise then he did : that is to say , that the very substance of the breade ( through the operacion of the holy ghoste , in the holy consecracion ) is turned into the very blessed body of Christ ? al those multitudes , Frith ( thou seest ) doth recken therin to be madde . He dooeth not except al , or any , trew christen princes : about whom there lacketh not men , in wit , grauitee , and lernyng , of the beste sorte that maie be had : which seme not of al men to be lightly deceiued : wherof in this matter specially , thei are vtterly most lothe . Therfore dooth the sadnes of Frithe , shewe vs madnesse in all christen princes , in all their prudent and wise councellours : and in all their multitudes of peoples innumerable vnder them ? or els doth not the sadnesse of all those , shewe vs the wonderfull madnesse of hym ? I require no answere of this , but consider it well with thy selfe . And therfore what is there more in all his woordes , whiche thou hast here rehersed , but onely his owne swasions : and foolish continuall daunsing about this same woorde the same ? wherwith thou seest he wolde conclude & confirme what so euer he babled before . Neuerthelesse , yet forthe he goeth , shewing vs in the syxt lefe of his booke after his fantasie , how the olde fathers did beleue , saiyng : There is no poynte in our Creede , but thei beleued it , as well as we dooe : and those articles onely , are necessarie vnto saluacion .

Who hath herde suche an other teacher ? For of this , it must nedes folowe , that it is not necessary vnto saluacion , to beleue that Christe is equall with the father . For whiche of the .xii. articles is that ? Those .xii. onely ( he saith ) are necessary vnto saluacion . And this , that Christe is equall with the father , is none of the .xii.

Wherfore the belefe therof is not necessarie vnto saluacion . Also it is not necessarie vnto saluacion , to beleue it a damnable thynge , to peruerte and deprauate the harde saiynges of saint Paule and other scriptures ( although saint Peter doth saie the contrarie ) because it is none of those .xii. articles , 2. Pe●… whiche he saith are onely necessarie vnto saluacion . And to bee shorte , we maie denie by his doctrine all the whole scripture , those .xii. articles of our Crede excepted , if thei onely ( as he saith ) be necessarie vnto saluacion . For what so euer is not necessarie to saluacion , maie be vnbeleued without any danger of damnacion . This doth he somwhat more plainly declare immediately hym selfe saiynge these woordes : But the other pointes conteined in scripture , although thei be vndoubted veritees , yet maie I be saued without them .

What is , this same , saued without them , but saued without the belefe of them ? That is to saie , although thei be neuer so trewe , and that of moste worthie thynges .

Yet I nede not beleue them . Therfore when he noteth , all Christen princes , and all Christen people , to bee madde , for their belefe , whiche thei haue in the blessed sacrament : how muche maie we note him , more then madde , that will beleue and so saie , that he maie be saued without the belefe of all or any veritees conteined in scripture , beside those same .xii. expressed in the Crede ?

HERE .

Sir I suppose that Frithe wolde soone auoide all these absurdites , whiche ye dooe gather to folowe of his woordes : and saie that the veritee of Christes equalitee with the father , and suche other veritees , as ye speake of , are priuelie conteined in the .xii. articles of our Crede , & beleued in them , although thei do not therin , expressely and distinctly apere .

CATH.

Naie naie countreie man , neuer suppose , that he wolde saie so . For then wolde I quickely aunswere hym and saie , as the trewthe is in dede , that the veritee of this holie sacrament , which he denieth , is one of them , and that it was conteined and hidde in the olde fathers feith , as many other veritees were confusely , to be reueled and brought to light distinctly , when their time therof should come , which was by the comyng of our sauiour Christe . Therfore with this , Frithes mowthe were soone stopte , if he wolde saie so . But he was ware of this well enoughe : And prouided for it therafter , that men shoulde not take hym so to meane . For els when he saith those articles onely , are necessarie to saluacion , he wolde not haue added this vnto it , saiyng : The other pointes conteined in scripture , although thei be vndoubted veritees , yet maie I bee saued without them .

Therfore who hath hearde of suche a doctour , that will not denie , but all the pointes of scripture , are vndoubted veritees : And yet will holde , that we are not bownde to the belefe of any moe of them but onely twelue ? I coulde neuer here of any veritee of the scripture ( as there be in it none other ) but who so euer wolde not beleue it , he was vtterly therin no lesse then an heritike : But this man is , and so teacheth other to be , at libertee with them all , onely twelue excepte .

HERE .

It maie so bee , well enough , in certaine cases .

CATH.

What cases , I praie thee be thei ?

HERE .

He dooth forthwith declare .ii. or .iii. him selfe .

CATH.

Then let me here them .

HERE .

Thei be euen these .

As be it in case ( he saith ) that I neuer herde of them . '

There is one .

Or when I here of them , I can not vnderstande them , ' nor comprehende them . '

There is an other

Or that I here them , and vndestande them , and yet ' by reason of an other texte misconstrew them . '

There is the thirde .

CATH.

A , bee these the cases , wherin men be not bounde to beleue any veritees of scripture mo then those xii . expressed in the Crede ?

HERE .

So saith he .

CATH.

Then saie I , that if thou marke it well in his firste and seconde case ioigned together , he dooeth put , whether he dooe heare them , or not here them . And in the seconde , and thirde case , whether he vnderstande them or not vnderstande them : So that he dooth not put these cases , but onely to th intente that in euery case , he might auoide and cleane exclude , the nede of all the veritees of scripture , saue onely twelue . For when he saieth he maie be saued without them , whether he here them or here them not : and whether he vnderstande them , or vnderstande them not . And therfore after his owne doctrine , whether he beleue them , or beleue them not ? What nede maketh he of any of them all , but meneth awaie with them clene in euery condicion . For if he maie be saued without them ( as he saith he maie ) then it is clere , that he hath no nede of them . If he haue no nede of them : doubtles he hath no nede to beleue them . Therfore if he haue no nede to beleue them : in very dede , he hath lesse nede to vnderstande them ( for more necessarie is belefe , then is vnderstandynge in thynges of our feith ) and therfore if he nede not beleue them , nor vnderstande them , plaine it is , that he nedeth not so much as here them ( for what shuld he here , that he nedeth not beleue ) Therfore if he nede not so muche as here them , he hath vtterly no nede of them at all : if he haue no nede of them at all : then be thei ( as he wolde make them in dede ) no partes of the feithe at all : excepte he will saie ( as he dooth so muche as it cometh to ) that all the most parte of the feith nede not to be herde : And consequently , nor beleued nother . Thus are we clerely discharged of all the veritees of scripture , saue onely twelue in euery condicion wherof he might be asked this prety question , why thei were writen ? But how so euer this diuelishe doctrine behaueth it selfe : what other thing is the feithe of Christ , but all the veritees of scripture ? And contrary wise , what other thyng are all the veritees of scripture , but the feith of Christe ? Therfore when all the veritees of scripture , are conteined in the feith of Christe ( as it is one of them so to beleue ) And the feith of Christe ( as I shewed thee yesterdaie ) can not bee trewly had , but all whole together : It muste nedes folowe , that who so euer hath trewly the feith of Christe , hath also therin no lesse then all the veritees of scripture . Fals therfore is the doctrine of Frith , that saieth , we maie be saued without them all , saue only twelue : when the feith cannot be trewly had , without them all . More ouer , how saiest thou to this : is it not a necessarie veritee vnto saluacion , to beleue that the commaundementes of god are good , and ought to be kepte ?

HERE .

Sir what question is that : there is no man dooeth doubte therin .

CATH.

And is there any perell in it , if a man dooe not so beleue it ?

HERE .

In very dede no lesse then damnable .

CATH.

Take hede , perchaunce thou wotest nere what thou saiest .

HERE .

Why what ?

CATH.

Vtterly that Frith is a fals lier : when he saith , those articles of our Crede , are onely necessarie vnto saluacion . For which is it of those .xii. to beleue , that the commaundementes of god be good , and ought to be obserued and kepte , or that there is any perill in it : if we do not so beleue ? Those .xii. onely be necessarie , saith he . This veritee thou seest is none of them ( although as all other , it maie bee reduced vnto them ) whiche he will none of in any case , lest that , whiche he laboureth to ouerthrowe , shoulde so by that meanes , bee brought in likewise : after his minde therfore without this , we maie be saued . That is to wit , without the belefe , that the commaundementis of god be good , or ought to be obserued & kepte : who will not see , that this were enough , to declare what a teacher he is ? or who hath so dull a wit , that he can not perceiue how diuelish his purpose is ? and it were but only by this , that he can finde no waie to come to it , but only by such damnable pathes as this is ? Beholde how faine he wold proue it no nede , so to beleue in the blessed sacrament of the alter , as all trew Christen people beleueth : In very dede so faine , that , to bryng it to passe with al , he sticketh not here ( as thou seest thy selfe ) to leue vs clene without the nede of any , and of all the veritees of holy scripture , mo then bare .xii. for in those .xii. veritees of our Crede , he thought surely , that this veritee of the blessed sacrament could not be founde . And therfore he dooth saie : that thei onely are necessarie vnto saluacion , to th intent he might vtterly therby exclude the nede of this , whiche he wolde so cleane put awaie , that euen for that cause , he excludeth no lesse , then all the reste , saiynge : The other pointes conteined in scripture , although thei be vndoubted veritees : yet maie I bee saued without them .

And this he declareth in euery condicion , that is to saie , whether he beleue them or not : whether he vnderstande them or not , and whether he misconstrew them or not : All these I saie ( saith he ) maie be doone without any ieoperdie of damnacion .

Cap. 23. HERE .

Ye but sir , ye must take his conclusion with all .

CATH.

What is that ?

HERE .

Marie this : Therfore we beleue ( he saith ) these articles of our Crede : in the other is no perill , so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them .

CATH.

Doubtles a conclusion euen like hym selfe . How be it I muse not so muche therat , nor yet at hym nother , as I dooe euen at thee .

HERE .

At me , why so ?

CATH.

Without faile , because thou dooest no more wonder at his blynde madnesse , or madde blyndenesse , choose thee whether . How bee it I dooe partely consider the cause . For surely if thou thy selfe were not by hym , somewhat combred with the same clowde of darkenesse , wherin he was inuolued and wrapped hym selfe , thou shouldest easely , besyde his wily wickednesse , perceiue hym tumbled into the greattest foolishnesse that euer thou sawest any man . For when he saith , in the other is no perill , so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them , maie not I sai : O folish Frith , what if we haue none , nor none can haue ? how then ? how is it possible to haue any probable reson to dissent from any veritees most special & aboue al , from any veritees of holy scripture ? For what reason is there probable in dede , but onely that , whiche is trewe in dede ? and can any one trewth be against an other ? Therfore if thou marke this matter well , thou shalt finde , that by these wordes , he setteth vs euen at as muche libertee , with our feith in all the .xii. veritees of our Crede , as he doth in all the other . For in them is no perill nother , so that we haue a probable reason to dissent from them .

HERE .

Why sir , we maie not dissent from them in no wise .

CATH.

What not with a probable reason ? what thynge is there , that a probable reason dooth not bynde me to dooe ? For what is a probable reason , but that , whiche maie iustly be proued to be trewe . And shall not trewth leade me trewly to and fro in euery condi●ion ?

HERE .

Ye but there can be no suche probable reason , to leade as from those veritees of our Crede .

CATH.

Why not from them , as well as from the other veritees of scripture beside ? bee thei more trewe , then any of the other are ? How be it , thow speakest this of thine own head . For Frith saith no more , but that we maie dissent from all the veritees of scripture , saue .xii. so that we haue a probable reason therto . And I saie the same , by that reason , of those xii . also , if we haue a probable reason therto : For what ought I to refraine , whiche a probable reason will leade me vnto ? am I not alwaie bownde vnto trewth ? and what other thing is a probable reason ? Therfore it must nedes folow by his reason , that in these veritees of our Crede , is no perill , so that we haue a probable reason , to dissent from them . Thus taketh he from vs , the nede of all the veritees of scripture , saue .xii. so that by the same reason he taketh awaie the nede of them to . And therfore he semeth to except them in woordes , but not in dede .

HERE .

Yes sir , for els he wold not saie this . Those articles are onely necessarie vnto saluacion . For them am I bound to beleue , and am damned without excuse , if I beleue them not .

CATH.

What of this ? thou thinkest by reason of these wordes , that he goth about to make vs beleue , that we be bounde to the veritees of our Creede .

HERE .

what els ? For what purpose shoulde he speake it , but for that ? or to shew vs , how he doth beleue them him selfe .

CA.

I thought euen as much , when he intendeth none of them both . For his purpose is not to make vs beleue them , but onely to make vs to beleue no moe . For , to go about to make vs beleue so much , is one thinge , and to go about to make vs beleue no more , is an other thing . Therfore his intent is ( as who saie ) there to stoppe in our feith , that it shulde goe no farther , and not to bringe it thether , nor there to vpholde it . For although his blindnesse be so great and manifest , that euen the very same , which he laboureth to improue and ouerthrow , he confesseth to be a veritee of scripture ( or els wolde he neuer cal it an article of our feith , as in the .xvi. leaf of his booke he dooth in deede ) saiyng these wordes .

For though it be an article of our feith , yet it is not an article of our Creede , in the .xii. articles , whiche are sufficient for our saluacion .

Although his blindnesse ( I say ) be so great , that he him selfe dooeth confesse this a veritee of scripture , which he laboreth so sore to improue : yet because he thought it coulde not be found among the .xii. veritees of our Crede euen therfore wolde the catchpoule , as it were in a pinfolde , pyn vp therin our feith , from all the veritees of scripture beside : and all to th intent it shulde not come at this veritee of the holy sacrament , and that for the speciall hatred he beareth vnto it . Howe bee it in so saiyng I confesse my selfe somewhat to large . For why shoulde I saie , that he beareth a speciall hatred againste this blessed veritee , when he serueth them all a lyke ? yet am I therin somewhat to rasshe to . For why shoulde I saie , that he serueth them al a lyke , when he wold sleie al those for this , and not this for them , but this for it selfe . not muche vnlyke vnto hym , whiche for the malice he bare against one innocent , slew an whole multitude . Mat. ●

But as that Herode missed his purpose of that one , whom he principally intented , and ( to his owne perdicion ) was but a meane of bringing al the residew to a farre more clerer light then they had before . Euen so I doubt not of this Herode likewise , but that he shall misse his purpose of this one veritee , which to destroy he doth chefly intend . And also in the multitude of other beside ( although to his own perdition ) be but a meane of bringing them to a more clere light of knowlage in many one than euer they had before . That Herode & this , although persecutors both , and both of Christ , wherin they gree . Yet in the maner of their persecution , somwhat they differ . For that Herode did persecute him directly , and apertly : but this Herode , consequently & occultly , vnder & with the pretence , of the contrary . That Herode , sent men to find him where he was not , but this Herod sendeth men to lese him where he is . Also that Herod laboured to make him be taken , but this Herode , laboured to make him forsaken . He with manifest cursednesse : & this with false feigned holinesse , He with cruel tyrannie : & this with wicked heresie . Therfore what so euer this yong Herode doth saie , as towching the veritees of our Crede , neuer thinke , that he speaketh it to make vs beleue it , nor yet to shew , that he beleueth it him selfe . For that he saieth , is onely to make vs beleue no more , for lesse he thought he coulde not . And therfore he supposing , that if he might stoppe our feith therin , from goyng any farther , he might then bring his wicked purpose to passe well enough . And to be suer therof , he wolde by suche a rule , discharge vs of our feith in all the veritees of scripture , saue onely these .xii. of our Crede , as wolde leade vs euen likewise , from the feith of them to : when he saieth ,

In the other is no perill , so that we haue a probable reason' to dissent from them . '

This probable reason ( as I haue tolde thee ) is able to discharge vs of all maner of thinges none except , wherin so euer it maie be had . And therfore as well of all the veritees of our Crede , as of any other veritees of scripture beside .

Cap 24. HERE .

Sir , I do now perceiue , that al this while , ye take one probable reason for an other , and not that probable reason , which Frith speaketh of .

CATH.

Hah , what saist thou ? I pray the tel me that agein .

HE.

Mary sir I say , the probable reason that Frith speaketh of , is not the same , that ye take it for .

CATH.

Trowest thou so ?

HERE .

No trewly .

CA.

What is it then

HE.

Ye know well enough , that there be two maner of probable reasons : of the which , the one hath in it a trewth ineuitable . And therfore it is or maie be called a probable reason existent . The other hath in it no trewth in dede , yet is it so like to be trew , that it is very hard to auoid , or to be otherwise perceiued or taked but for trew in dede . And therfore it is , or maie bee called a probable reason , apparent : but not existent .

CATH.

I can thee thanke countreyman , it is euen very well saide . And therfore doest thou thinke , that it is this probable reason , which is but aparent , that Frith speaketh of ?

HERE .

Yea trewly that I dooe .

CATH.

Why so ?

HERE .

For it can not stande with any reason , that it shuld be the other probable reason , whiche is trew , because ( as I now perceiue my selfe ) one trewth can neuer leade vs to dissent from an other , but rather binde vs vnto it .

CATH.

Doubtles therin thou hittest the nayle euen vpon the head : And therfore by that iust and good reason , it dooeth well apere , that when frith ( speaking of charticles of our Creede ) doth saie .

In the other is no perill , so we haue a probable reason to dissent from them .

It is not that probable reason , which hath in it the very trewthe in deede . But it is that probable reason , which is but only apparent , and doth but onely seeme to be trew & nothing els ▪ therfore what so euer doth but only seme to be trew , without fayle is not trew in dede . And what so euer is not trew in dede , and yet semeth to be trew , is vtterly nothing els , but euen a meane to deceiue . And therfore the very conclusion is this , That wher he saith , In the other veritees of scripture is no perill , so we haue a probable reason to dissent from them .

It is no more to say , but in the other veritees of scripture is no perill , so we haue a deceitfull meane to dissent from them , when a probable reason without trewth is none other , but ( as I said ) a meane to deceiue in dede .

HERE .

Nay sir I can not yet for all this , beleue that he ment so .

CATH.

No ? not when his owne wordis compelleth vs to take it so ? For he can not speake of a probable reason , and meane it to bee nother trew nor false : except thou wilt saie ( as of many a one it is , when he speaketh he wotteh nere what ) that his wit is not his owne . Therfore he ment it to be either trew or false . If he ment it to be trew : then is it as much to saie , as in the other veritees of scripture is no perill , so we haue suche a probable reason to dissent from them , as is not possible to be had . For it is not possible to haue trewth , against trewth . Wherfore how foolishe at the leaste is he , to suggest vnto vs , any such case ? Therfore of the other side , if he ment a probable reason but aparent , and not trew in dede : Then is it no more to saie but this , In the other veritees of scripture is no perill , so we haue that probable reason to dissent from them , which is so redie and easie to be had , that al we ought , to blisse vs from it .

HERE .

Blisse vs from it , what nede that ?

CATH.

Nedeth it not , to blisse vs from that probable reason , which might leade vs to dissent from ani veritee of scripture ? For what is the scripture but godis worde ? therfore what is any verite of scripture , but the verite of godes word ? And what probable reason is that , which ledeth one to dissent from any veritee of godis word , but only the falsitee of the diuels worde ? Yet herein , saith Frith , there is no peril . This thou seest , he moueth vs vnto . For with a probable reason ( he saith ) we may without any peril , dissent from all the veritees of scripture , saue .xii. and I saie , by that rule , from them to . Therfore , while Frith doth here in plaine wordes , shew vs a way , to dissent from the veritees of holy scripture , whiche is the worde of god , what other thing therin doth he els , but vtterly shew vs the waie of the diuell ? How be it herein , he teacheth vs but a poynt of his owne facultee . For by this probable reason , founde he the meanes , to dissent and come awaie from the veritees of holy scripture him selfe . For els , without fayle , he had bid in them still . By this probable reason also , riseth the first heretike of euery secte . And by this probable reason , deceiueth he an other . By this probable reason gender they mo and mo . By this probable reason grow they , sometyme to a multitude . And by this probable reason they continew , to the disquietnesse of the faithfull flocke of Christ . Also by this probable reason which is but apparent , which semeth iuste , and is not , which promiseth trewth , and paieth not , which beareth in hand to dooe , that it can not . By this probable reason ( I say ) heretikes are enticed , perswaded , and led , from the veritees of scripture , from the veritees of godis woorde , and from the veritees of euerlasting life . And by this probable reason , they are prouoked and set a woorke , to crie to the people , and say beware of deceiuers , beware of false teachers , beware of subtill Sophisters . And what other thing therin do they els , but ignorantly and euen directly against their owne purpose , moue the audience to be ware of them , & of no men els ? For such and the same are thei , & in dede none other . Therfore let vs now returne to his third case againe , brefly to see what we left therin behind ( he saith ) Or be it in case , that I here them , and vnderstand them and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them Here he driueth me to such a streit , that I can not tel whether I maie more wonder at him , or at his case . For tell me , if euer thou herdst of any such braine . How is it possible for any man to misconstrew the same , which he doth vnderstand ? Is it one thing to vnderstand , and an other to know ? Is any man therfore able to take a thing otherwise , then he knoweth it is ? Doth not the knowlage or vnderstanding of a thinge , cleane put away the misconstruing therof ? For whereof , commeth misconstruing , but of misunderstanding ? neuerthelesse , Be it in case ( he saith ) that I vnderstande them , and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them .

Here thou seest plaine , that he putteth vnderstanding , and misconstruing , both together in one respect , and one case , and that by the reason ( he saieth ) of an other text . Therfore whether he meaneth the veritee of that other text , to be vnderstanded , or not vnderstanded , let vs trie what foloweth of each of them , and then we shal be sure , to come to his meaning , at the least in one of them . Therfore if he meane it vnderstanded , then this must folowe , that the vnderstanding of the veritee of that same one other text , maie put away the vnderstanding of all the veritees of scripture .xii. except : when it may , bring the vnderstander to the misconstruction of them , as by his words it may , when of them al ( he saith )

Or be it in case that I here them , and vnderstand them , ' and yet by the reason of an other text misconstrew them . ' So that the trew vnderstanding of that same other text , is but a meane , to make the veritees of all the rest to be misconstrued , and that of him that vnderstandeth them . And what is that to say but this , that the trewe vnderstanding of one text , maie bringe a man from the trewe vnderstanding of of an other , when it bringeth him to the misconstrewyng therof ? And therfore doest thou not see , what good reason and trewth , he teacheth in this case ? hast thou heard of this same lesson before that the trew vnderstanding of one text , shuld plucke away the trew vnderstanding of an other , from him that hath it ? I haue herde that the trew vnderstanding of one text , might induce and bring to light , the trew vnderstanding of an other : But I neuer herd afore now , that the trew vnderstanding of one , might misconstrew , & so put away , the trew understanding of an other , when trewth ( as I tolde the before ) is a meane to come by trewth , & not a meane to misconstrew & put awai trewth . for so , were trewth against trewth , and vnderstanding against vnderstanding : And therfore Frith doth here to saue al vpright , make misconstruction , which is the great enemy of them both , to be as a stickeler betwene them : wherfore of the other side , if he meane that the verite of this other text which may make this misconstruction , is not vnderstanded , then must this folow , that the ignorance , and not vnderstanding of the trewth of one text , may put away the knowlage and vnderstanding of the trewth of an other text , as it must nedes dooe , if it maie make it misconstrued , as Frith dooeth hold it maie . And so shall blinde ignorance be more mighty and able to expell and put away clere and perfite knowlage , from him that hath it , then perfite knowlage is able to expell and put away it : as though the ignorance of one thing , were the driuer away of the knowlage of an other , whiche is an ouerthwart rule , contrary to all reason and trewth . For it is the naturall propertee and strengthe of knowlage , where so euer it commeth , to subdew and expell ignorance , and not of ignorance , to ouerthrow and expell knowlage . How be it I will not say . but ignorance maie and commonly doth in many cases , kepe trewth from knowlage and vnderstandinge : but yet when and wherin so euer knowlage and vnderstanding doth once get the victorie , and obteineth it in dede , ignorance then goeth streight to wrake , and is vtterly put to flight , for any thing therin it can dooe more . Wherfore , the trewth of one text , vnderstanded or not vnderstanded , can neuer driue the trewth of an other , out of vnderstanding , as it might doe , if it might driue it to misconstruction , as it can not , because there shulde be then ( as I said ) trewth against trewth , and vnderstanding against understanding , which can not be . Therfore whether the trewth of this other text , that Frith speaketh of , be vnderstand or not vnderstand , yet false is this his saiyng therof , that it may cause the trew vnderstanding of an other text or veritee of scripture , to be misconstrued of him that hath it , and so put awaie : when it is not possible for the trew vnderstandynge of a thynge , and the misconstruynge of the same , to stande to gether , excepte Frith wyll saie , that he can ioigne them together this waie , as when he vnderstandeth a veritee neuer so wel , yet he can purposely misconstrewe the same neuerthelesse , to beguilde and deceiue his neghbour withall , and beare him in hande , it is otherwise ment , then he hym selfe , dooeth knowe it is .

HERE .

What sir , ye dooe but taunte hym nowe .

Cap. 25. CATH.

Tawnte or tawnte not , thou shalt neuer fynde , how he can otherwise ioigne them together when thou haste all doone . And therfore , as a man so trowbled and tyred with this case of his owne , that he woteth nere whiche waie to turne hym , he geueth it ouer quite , and falleth to an other matter , euen with these woordes : But nowe to returne ( he saith ) to our purpose , if we will examine the authoritees of saint Austen , & Beda before alleged , we shall espie , that beside the probacion of this foresaide proposicion : thei open the misterie of all our matter , to them that haue eien to see :

( Those he meaneth , whiche are as blynde as he . )

For saint Austen saith ( saith he ) that we and the olde fathers dooe differ , as touchynge the bodily meate . For thei eate manna , and we breadde .

Now countreiman , because thou didst after his allegacion recite the woordes of saint Austen vnto me thy selfe . I praie thee hertily therfore remembre them well , and tell me trewly , whether saint Austen spake there , so muche as any woorde of bread , as this felow dooth now reporte hym .

HERE .

Sir therin to confesse the trewth , saint Austen saith , that the fathers did eate manna , and we an other thynge . But in dede he hath not there this same woorde bread .

CATH.

Thou maiest see therfore what a iuste parte gentle Frieth plaith herein with saint Austen . He thought this woorde bread , wolde sownde somewhat more for his purpose , then this woorde an other thyng : whiche in dede soundeth towarde it nothyng at all . And therfore in the stede therof , in with breade he cometh , but not by and by immediatly after he reherseth the woordes of saint Austen : but longe after . For had he brought it in streight waie , while the woordes of saint Austen were in the minde of the reader : he wist wel enough , it wolde then be soone perceiued and taken , not like a pointe of falshed , but euen as it is , for very one and the selfe same in dede . and therfore he falleth first in to a longe bablyng of his owne phantasticall inuencion . And afterwarde , when he supposeth the wordes of saint Austen somewhat growne out of remembraunce with the reader : Then , in cometh the baker with his mustie bread , And that he dooth only , euen of his owne head without cause or requeste , made of any man , But onely in liyng , to shew what he can . wherfore in fewe woordes , by my very assent , He shall for his great labour , be this content : what so euer other men saie , or will thinke , To take his bread with hym , and goe ere he drinke .

HERE .

What sir me thinke ye fall to rymyng againe .

CATH.

In very dede , if thou were , so able to weigh and consider how wylie and foolishe his falshed is , as some men are and doth in dede , I doubte not , but thou woldest saie thy selfe , that rimynge onely , were good enough for hym , although it were ( as it is not here ) without bothe reason and trewthe . For he that vseth , ( where alwaie two of them ought to be ) nothyng els but falshed in dede , Is not euen the least of them three , more then enough , and to good for hym ? How false dooth he apere once againe , in this reporte that he maketh here nowe of saint Austen ? For coulde not saint Austen hym selfe haue put in this woorde bread : as well as this woorde , an other thynge ? if he had so ment , or had not seene some good cause to the contrarie ? was his minde so occupied in treatynge only of this matter , that he had forgotten the proper name of bread , whiche was moste present redie and apte to be thought vpon in this case ? or coulde he not call that woorde to remembrance : because it was so strange and farre out of vse ? He sticketh not at manna , but directly expresseth it with the proper name therof : why staieth he at this woorde bread , more then at that ? was it more strange and farder out of vse , then the manna was ? why dooeth he touche this , with no proper name : but with a woorde commune , and indifferent , in maner to all thynges ? wolde he refraine so redy a thynge , and see no cause why ? if he sawe any , what was that ? Frith will not put that in question vnto vs : he wolde not here of it : he had leuer haue vs forget it : it maketh not for his purpose , as hereafter it shal well apere .

HERE .

Yet sir in some other places , seint Austen hym selfe dooth call it bread plainly .

CA.

Why therfore , dooth Frith allege him so here , where he dooth not so cal it : & will not allege hym there , where he doth call it so ? what meneth he by that ? doth it signifie nothyng ? I wil wel , that saint Austen so doth call it : & that diuers times : but yet neuer without suche a certaine conuenient circumstance with all , as declareth what he meaneth by it : whiche circumstance , Frith perceiueth to make no lesse agaynst hym , then this woorde breade , semeth to sownde with hym . And therfore because the woorde and that circumstance , he can not fynde in saint Austen asonder , he therfore hym selfe , wolde plante the one , in some other corner alone : as thou seest hym here , this craftily assaie , where he dooeth knowe , that circumstance to bee awaie : And therfore this hast thou herde a great parte of the very thynge I maie saie vnto thee , whiche ( as he saith ) dooeth open the misterie of all his matter , to them that haue eien to see : Although he meaneth but those ( as I tolde thee before ) whiche are as blinde as he : wherfore , hast thou not nowe , euen more then enough , to perceiue what a goodly foundacion of his this is , to builde any good woorke vpon ?

Cap. 26. HERE .

To saie the trewthe , if it be no better then ye make it , he hath not leide it so depely as I thought he had done :

CATH.

Naie saie not so , for he hath leide it no lesse depe , I maie saie to thee , then euen downe to the diuell hym selfe : And therfore fynde thou no lacke in the depenesse therof : for deper could no man laie it in dede , then he hath done : And yet not withstandynge that , and all that I haue declared therof beside : Beholde how he glorieth therin , and what a face he setteth vpon it , as though there were no suche matter at all : for in his preface and firste lefe of his booke , where he speaketh of his first treatise , whiche he wrote in hucker-mucker , and not ( as he confesseth hym selfe ) to be published abrode , he hath these woordes : But nowe it is commune ( he saith ) abrode in many mens mowthes , in so muche that maister Moore whiche of late hath busied him selfe , to meddle in al such matters ( of what zeale I will not difine ) hath sore laboured to confute it , but some men thinke that he is ashamed of his parte .

And a little after , he addeth vnto it these woordes .

But this I am right sure of , that he neuer towched the foundacion that my treatise was builded vpon . And therfore sith my foundacion standeth so sure , and inuinsible ( for els I thinke verely he wolde sore haue laboured to haue vndermined it ) I will therupon , builde a little more : and also declare that his ordinance is to sclender to breake it downe although it were set vpon a wors foundacion .

Whiche I saie is not possible to be had : and yet for all that in the thirde leaf . his woordes therof be these : This was ( he saith ) the foundacion of my firste treatise , that he hath lefte vnshaken : whiche is a great argument that it is very trew . For els his pregnant wit coulde not haue passed it so clene ouer . But wolde haue assailed it with some sophisticall cauellacion whiche by his painted poetree , he might so haue coloured : that at the leste he might make the ignorant some apparence of trewthe , as he hath done against the residew of my firste treatise , whiche neuertheles is trew , & shall so be proued . How it proueth , thou hast had a good saie therof alredie : And yet beholde ( as I saide ) how he glorieth therin , as though it were in very perfection , moste suer and inuinsible : in so muche , that with those termes he bosteth and setteth it out ( as here thou seest ) to the vttermoste : when it is in dede no lesse , but euen as farre behinde , as he wolde set it forwarde . And as for that he saith here , of maister Moore , euery man knoweth of his notable worthinesse , what a singular man he was , both of witte and learnynge , and yet marke how lewdly this felowe d●oth here vse hym with nothynge els , but very mockes tauntes , and checkes , thinkyng therby to deface him , and set out hym selfe : but whiche waie that turneth , I suppose it no nede to tell thee : Therfore I praie thee tell me , how cometh this to passe ? that one hauyng not halfe the witte or lernyng , that Frith was thought to haue , before he fell to these foolish , fonde , wicked , and erroneous opinions : can soone perceiue so muche folly and falshed in his booke , that there is in maner no lefe without it , and yet he hym selfe , coulde see therof nothynge at all ? how ( I saie ) cometh this to passe ? Maie we not thinke , that he met with that facultee , whiche causeth it to bee trewly saide of some man , that the lenger he liueth , the more foole he wexeth ? That is to saie the more he taketh of it , the les witte he hath ? for if he sawe any falshed therin , then went he wittyngly aboute to deceiue men : if he sawe none , wherin is so muche : what bitter smooke so troubled his eies , that he coulde not espie some parte therof ? was he not taken ( trowest thou ) into the weswarde tuicion , of that darke and inuisible tutour , whiche ( for all thy saing ) caused hym therin to wander , he wi●● nere whether ? howe maie we thinke otherwise , if we with diligence prepende well the matter ? For the very trewthe to saie ( as I tolde thee before , and nowe also againe , to th intent thou shuldest the better here it awaie , and kepe it in mynde ) if the diuell hym selfe , were at the libertee , to be incarnate : And euen so to come amonge vs , onely to entice and lede vs from the belefe of any article of our feithe , let me see , how it were possible , for that father and fountaine of all craftie falshed , to invente for that purpose any maner of deceiueable wyle , comparable to this , whiche we fynde in Frith ? That is to wit , to beare vs in hande , that it is indifferent , and at our owne libertee , to beleue it or not : there is no perill in the matter , take whiche parte we luste : for , by this perswasion , how many trewe men is there in a lande , towched with neuer so litell a nede , that might not soone , be brought to stealyng , if thei were borne in hande , & so perswaded to thinke in dede , that it were an acte indifferent and without al maner of perill to them that wolde vse it ? Ye what maner of euils are thei , whiche some men ( now full honeste ) wolde then forbeare and refraine , if thei thought , were therin to them no daunger ? or whiche waie might thei so easely be led vnto them , as to be stifly so borne in hande ? ye make them but once beleue that , and lede them no farder : for it shal then , be no nede at al. a meruailous zeale of iustice hath he , that wolde not sone plaie the thiefe at a companions requeste , if he were once brought in opinion , that therin could be , to him no maner of peril . Thus lerned Frith ( of whom so euer he was taught ) to perceiue , that he had a wonderous fast feith in this blessed sacrament , whiche wolde not sone be content to leue it , if he were once brought in opinion , that therin could come vnto him no maner of displeasure . he saw it a matter of most difficulte , to make Christen people leue any part of their feith directy : but he saw it agein , a matter as easy , if thei might once be made beleue to be no peril therin , if thei so did : full well he wist , bring them once to that opinion , and let them then alone them selfes . For it shulde be enough , with the helpe of his owne doctour of darkenesse , whiche taught hym this lesson : for doubtles from whence it came , the thyng it selfe , doth shew and declare : wherfore of this his moste perillous , crafty & wicked wilines in this cace , let this , with that I said therof before , be a sufficient occasion for the , wel to prepende , marke and consider , bothe what it is , and wherof it came : For the more thou thinke vpon it , the more thou shalt see in it : And the more thou shalt see in it , The more ( I dare well saie ) thou shalt mislyke it : ye and at lengthe , euen abhorre it :

HE.

Ye dooe what ye can , to make a man abhorre it in dede :

CATH.

If I dooe otherwise , I shoulde not dooe well : And therfore take thou good hede vnto it , for it standeth thee so in hande :

HERE .

Whether it dooe or not , I wyll not forget what ye saie .

Cap. 27. CATH.

Then of the other side , to growe to an ende for this tyme , what shall I saie , more then I haue done , of his moste fonde , foolishe , and blinde falshed ? whiche apereth so plaine , in euery thynge , that he medleth withall , that I can not well tell , what to saie more , but that I am sure thou neuer sawest nor herdest of the lyke , nor no man els . For who but he , in a matter of our feithe , wolde graunt vs a libertee to beleue that , whiche he hym selfe , doothe not onely , not beleue , but also stifly holde and saie , that it is false , and no suche thynge in dede ? And yet for all that , saie , that it is an article of our feithe to .

HERE .

What sir , ye ouercharge hym nowe to farre : for there is no man so madde , ( I thinke ) as to speake thynges , after suche a sorte :

CATH.

If thou haddest excepted hym , I wolde graunte the fame .

HERE .

Naie I wyll not excepte hym , nor no man els herein .

HERE .

Then againste hym , let vs take none other , but euen he hym selfe to witnesse . For in the laste lefe of his booke , where he calleth the changeyng of the substance of bread & wyne into the very flesh & blood of our sauiour Christe , at the time of the holy consecration therof , the opinion of the prelates , as though it were but their opinion , and nothing els , his owne wordes be these .

The cause why I can not ( he saieth ) beleue their opinion of transmutacion , is this , first because I thinke verily that it is false , and can not bee proued by scripture nor feithful doctours , if they be well pondered .

Here thou feest plain of his own wordes , that he taketh this article to be vtterly false , And yet he geueth vs libertee and leue to beleue it neuerthelesse : as it may and doth well apere , by this , that he ( saiyng , neither parte ought to dispise other ) will no more reprehende vs therin , then he wolde that we shuld reprehende hym in the contrary . For each ( he saith ) seketh the glory of god : And therfore by that ( as I towld the before ) the one in a trew feith & the other in a false , for both can not be trew . Wherfore beside this , the very same , which he doth here sai in plaine wordis , that he thinketh verely to bee false , he confesseth it as plaine , to be an article of our feith , saiyng , Though it be an article of our feith , it is none of our Creede .

Therfore by this it is clere , that although he denieth it an article of our crede . yet he confesseth it an article of our faith .

HERE .

Ye but not necessary to be beleued the saith ) vnder payne of damnation .

CATH.

Whether it be vnder that paine or no : yet an article of our feith ( as the trewth is in dede ) he saith it is : And therfore say I , necessary to , for els it were but vaine and superfluous , which to beleue , were shame vnto vs , and disshonour to our feith , that it shulde conteine any such thing .

HERE .

Sir now I perceiue that ye do not take this , that Frith dooth say ( not necessary ) as he dooth meane it .

CATH.

How is that ?

HERE .

He meaneth it for indifferent and nothing els : for in the laste leafe of his boke saue one , his woordes thereof be these .

I thinke many men wonder ( he saith ) how I can die in this article , seying that it is no necessarie article of our feith : I graunt that neither parte is an article necessary to bee beleued vnder paine of damnacion , but leue it as a thinge indifferent , to thinke therin as god shal instill in euery mans mynde , and that neither part condemne other for this matter , but each receiue other in brotherly loue .

Here you may perceiue that he meaneth by this worde , not necessary , nothing els but indifferencie .

CATH.

I can the thanke , it is a place well place out : wherin strife , consider vpon what to quest he maketh his graunte . And after that , when he saieth , I leue it as a thinge indifferente , tell me what meaneth he , by this same woorde , it ? saiyng I leue it .

HERE .

He meaneth the same that goeth before , when he saith , neither parte is an article necessary . &c.

CATH.

Then the sence of his words must nedes be this , that he leaueth it , that is to say , neither parte , as a thing indifferent : wherfore if he leaue neither part , as a thing indifferent , then he leaueth both partes as thinges necessary : if he leue them both as thinges necessary , Then ( to vnderstande the best therof ) he leaueth the one parte necessarie to bee taken , and the other as necessarie to be forsaken , because the one is trew and the other false . And therfore , where is nowe his indifferencie become , that thou speakest of ? or where is his principall purpose become , but by this cleane ouerthrowne ?

HERE .

I neuer herd one , turne a mans tale as ye do .

CATH.

why so ?

HERE .

Because ye haue brought it cleane out of his meaning , and directly against the purpose he speaketh it for , as it dooth well apere : for ye maie bee suer , he ment not so .

CA.

How then ?

HE.

His meanyng is this , that neither parte , that is to say , neither of both partes , is an article necessary to be beleued vnder paine of damnation , but each of them , is to bee lefte as a thing indifferent to thinke therin as god shall instill in euery mans mynde .

CATH.

And is this , his very meaning thinkest thou ?

HERE .

It can bee none otherwise ?

CATH.

Then this indifferencie he meaneth not to be of neither part : But to be of both partis

HERE .

What els ?

CATH.

which both are they ?

HE.

Both his part and yours .

HERE .

His and ours , are cleane contrary .

HERE .

That is plaine .

CATH.

And euen therfore so plaine is this , that the one is trew , and the other false .

HERE .

That can not be denied .

CATH.

Therfore this must nedes be graunted , that here he leaueth plaine , both trewth and falshed at libertee , to bee taken or forsaken , euen together indifferently : and in the ende knitteth vp the knot , with the request of a brotherly loue , to bee had betwene them . Wherfore hast thou herde of suche a stickler betwene trewth and falshed as this is ? who wolde venture so arduous a matter , but he alone ? how be it , his courage was suche , that when he sawe betwene trewth and falshed , that is to say betwene god and the diuell , so great a controuersie , as yet was neuer at reste , he thinking therin to winne his spurres , wold nedes as a man indifferent , take vp the matter betwene them , and make them shake handes , with a brotherly loue . But yet because his indifferencie was in this matter suche , as did put no difference betwene those parties which are of so great and 〈◊〉 difference that is possible to be , Go● wole therfore in no wife haue him of his side , but refused him so cleane , that he had ben yet , as a masterlesse vacab●nd , if he had not ben taken into seruice of the other side .

HERE .

What sir me thinke ye talke your pleasure now at large .

CATH.

In very deede no more at large , then th occasion therof doth iustly require : for without question he was farre to parciall of the wrong side , to supple trewth and falshed together , with the straite narowe yoke of indifferencie : he had forgotte the gospell , wherin trewth it selfe doth say , qui non est mecum , Mat. 12. contra me est : That is to say , he that is not with me , is against me : wherin we finde no meane alowed . Neuerthelesse although it be impossible for this same , with me , and against me , to ioygne together by any meane in bede , yet Frith not therwith content , wold nedes thrust in no lesse then euen indifferencie , as a meane betwene them for all that , and so , couple them together according to his fantasie . But how he sped withall , somewhat thou feest , and more thou shalte : for what if I lay to his charge , that he doth here impute vnto God , thynstilling as well of falshed , as of trewth into mens mindes ?

HERE .

It shall not skyll what ye lay to his charge , so ye proue it not in deede .

Cap. 28. CATH.

Let me see how thou canst herin defende him . For doth he not say , I leue it as a thing indifference , to thinke therin as God shall instill in euery mans mynde ?

HERE .

So he sayth , but what of that ?

CATH.

Soest thou not see it plaine in those wordes , that he imputeth to God the instilling of that into euery mans mynde , whiche he meaneth by this worde , therin ? And againe that he meaneth by this worde , therin , none other , but to gether each part , both his and ours wherof he speaketh ? and those partes of his and ours are so contrary , that the one must nedes be trew and the other false ? wherfore he doth ( I say ) impute vnto god , th instilling of these two partes in euery mans minde , as well the one as the other : so that he will haue God thinstillar as well of falshed , as of trewth .

HERE .

Tushe sir this is to farre wyde .

CATH.

Wherfore ?

HERE .

Because it nother doth , nor yet can folow so : for the sence of his wordes is this . I leue it ( he saieth ) as a thing indifferent to thinke therin , that is to say , in eache parte , as god shall instill in euery mans mynde , that is to say , as God shall reuele vnto them , which parte hath the trewth , and which hath not .

CATH.

Thou saiest much for hym , and as much as may be saide : But yet it will not holde : for with his indifferencie , he hath prouided to muche to the contrary : As it maie somewhat apere by these wordes that he saith ,

As god shall instill in euery mans minde . '

He saith not in some mens mindes . But he saieth ineuery mans minde . And the trewth of this matter ( as he holdeth him selfe ) God dooth not instill in euery mans minde : wherfore his meaning must nedes be of that instilling , which dooth reach and extende farder then trewth , or els it muste nedes come short of euery mans minde . wherfore he doth here impute vnto god , the instilling of more then trewth , whiche can be none other but falshed .

HERE .

Sir I dooe meruaile to here you speake , for Frith doth not here meane , euery man generally , as ye take him : but he meaneth euery man specially , as in whom , god shall instill the trewth of this matter , and no farther .

CATH.

He is much behoulding vnto the : for he could say no better for him selfe . But yet it will not helpe : for the very same , that he calleth here indifferent , is nother more nor lesse , but euen the same , that he leaueth to gods instilling in euery mans minde . And that is plaine to be both the partis of his beliefe and ours , in this article of the holy sacramente , wherof the one is trew , and the other false . And those two partis doth he so glew together with indifferencie , to the intent they shuld so go and be taken together inseperably , that he wold not say , I leue them as thinges indifferent , but saith , I leaue it as a thing indifferent , putting them both together in the singular numore as one . And so referreth , it to gods instilling in euery mans minde , not the one , or the other disiunctiuely , but euen ioyntly both together , according to his owne saiyng indifferently : Wherfore why may I not say , ( as I said ) that he doth referre vnto God th instillinge as well of falshed as of trewth in euery mans minde , when therin he doth so knit and wrappe ▪ them both together with his indifferencie , and that in the singular numbre , that we can not by his owne wordes , deuide or plucke them asonder ?

HERE .

I daresay , for all this , ye do not thinke your selfe , that euer he ment , god to be th instiller of any falshed in any mans mind .

CATH.

How shulde we know his meaning but by his saiyng ? his saiyng , doth shew and leade vs , to this meaninge . And therfore what woldest thou haue more ?

HERE .

Yet I will not beleue , that he ment to referre th instilling of trewth and falshed both vnto god , with any suche indifferencie as ye speake of .

CATH.

Then thou muste needes graunt , that he ment it rather of the one , then of the other : or els onely of the one , and not of the other .

HERE .

What els ?

CATH.

If we vnderstande him , to referre vnto god , th instilling rather of the one then of the other , or onely of the one , and not of the other . Then because the one parte is his , and the other is ours , We must therfore nedis vnderstand him , to referre vnto god , the instillinge rather of his parte , then of ours , or els onely of his parte and not of ours , because he leaning to his owne parte , and not to ours , wolde nedes preferre his owne before ours . Wherfore because his parte hath the falshed , and so hath not ours , whiche hath the trewth , and so hath not his , it must needes folowe , that he referreth vnto god th instilling rather of falshed then of trewth , or els only of the falshed and not of the trewth . Therfore he leaueth and referreth vnto god , th instilling other of both partes ( according to his owne saiyng ) indifferently , or els rather of the one parte , then of the other leaning not euen eaqually , or els only of his owne parte , and not of the other euen wholl percially , for one of the three , it must nedis be , & yet take of them which thou wilt , this hast thou sene , what foloweth therof .

HE.

Sir I see that , folowe therof , which is to badde , to be gathered of any mans meaning .

CATH.

Whether it be or no , yet it doth and must nedes procede of his saiyng . And therfore thou maiest well perceiue , that it is not so badde , but he was as madde , to take vpon him , to play the parte of suche an indifferent stickler , betwene trewth and falshed , as wolde nedes perswade suche a brotherly loue to be had betwene them , as neither of them shulde condemne other , but reserue ( he saith ) each others infirmitee to god : wherin also it appereth plaine , that he wold haue here the infirmitee of falshed , which is of th one side , reserued to god : Therfore what he meaneth by that , or how it soundeth in thine eare , I say no more , but this is he , which vnder pretence of his dewtie to beleue the .xii. veritees of the Crede , doth denie his dewty of belefe in al the veritees of the whole scripture beside . Also this is he , that pretendeth to beare with vs in the trewth of our belefe , to th intent he wolde haue vs beare as much with him , in the falshed of his belefe . moreouer this is he , which doth say we may beleue that , whiche he him selfe doth say is false , and yet he him selfe wil not beleue that , which both he & we do say is trew : for we say it is an article of our feith , and euen so saith he : how be it he holdeth it indifferent to beleue or not beleue , but so do not we . And therfore he wil not beleue it one whit , till we do both agree , which he hath brought so nere the point , that now it wil neuer be .

Cap. 29. HERE .

Well sir , ye do but dally with me now : how be it , if he were liuyng as he is not , and might answere for him selfe , he wold perchance answere ye otherwise and farre better then I can .

CA.

He wolde if he could , but yet wolde I appose him for al that , in one cause more , why he did thus diuide al the other veritees of scripture from those .xii. of the Crede ?

HE.

Is there an other cause therof yet ?

CA.

ye that there is .

HE.

I pray you what is that ?

CA.

In the last leafe of his boke , his owne wordis doth well declare , which are euen these .

There are many veritees ( he saieth ) which are no such articles of our feith .

HE.

Is this all ?

CA.

Nay not so But first what articles meaneth he , by these , no such ?

HE.

No such as be of our Crede .

CATH.

Well saide . And what vetitees dooth he meane here , that maie be no suche articles ?

HERE .

All the other veritees of scripture .

CATH.

Then here his woordes againe , with those that foloweth , and therin let them be iudge . for There are ( he saith ) many veritees whiche yet maie bee no suche articles of our feithe . It is trewe that I laie in yrons , when I wrote this . how be it I wolde not receiue this trewthe for an article of our feithe : for you maie thinke the contrarie without all ieoperdie of damnacion : Nowe consider all this well together , and thou maiest soone perceiue , that this same exaumple of his imprisonment , dooth clerely shewe , that he meaneth not here , by these same veritees that he speaketh of , any veritees of scripture , but the veritees of all other thynges , whiche veritees in general , with the veritee of his imprisonment inspeciall , he bryngeth for example , how he wolde haue vs take all the veritees of scripture saue twelue . For as the veritee of his imprisonment , maie be no suche article of our feithe , as those be of our Crede , Euen so after the same sorte , wolde he haue all those other veritees of scripture , to be no such articles of our feithe nother : But the veritee of his imprisonment , and all other of that sorte beside , are not onely no suche , but vtterly no articles of our feithe in dede , wherfore no more wolde he haue all the veritees of scripture , scantly those twelue excepte of the Crede : And yet before this , he lefte those other veritees of scripture as articles indifferent : But now he wil haue them , other none articles of our feithe at all , or els the veritees of all other thynges , to bee articles of our feithe euen as well as the : Therfore what wonder is it , though he thus diuide all the other veritees of scripture , as of an other kinde from the veritees of the Crede , when thei be with him of no more estimacion , then be all such other veritees , as ( for example ) the steple of Paules is higher then the crosse in chepe ? And because the veritee therof is none article of our feithe , for all it is a veritee in dede : Therfore by his plaine exaumple , no more wolde he haue all the veritees of scripture , sauing onely those expressed in the Crede : were not a man happie thinkest thou , to mete with suche a doctour , to teche him his feithe ? dooest thou not perceiue the mighty power and strengthe of this veritee , whiche he wolde so faine ouerthrowe , when it geueth him so shamefull faules , in euery wicked wile , that he dooth attempte against it ?

It is trewe ( he saith ) that I laie in yrons when I wrote this : how be it I wolde not receiue that trewthe for an article of our feithe .

And yet without faile when he said so , he went more nere to make it one , then he was ware of him selfe : for he went so nere it , that he brought it within one worde of it : In so much , that if he had put in ( as the trewth required ) but this same worde ( worthely ) more then he did , & said , it is trew that I lay worthely in yrons when I wrot this , without question , it had ben then so nere an article of our feith in dede , That who so euer wolde not beleue it ( knowing the matter ) thei could not be , but in great ieoperdie of damnacion . For doubtles those that thinke hym vnworthily prisoned , knowing the cause why , be of the same most damnable opinion , that he was of him selfe , god of his great mercy graunt them sone to amende it : for how damnable that opinion is , it maie well and sufficiently apere , and it were but by these his reasons ( as to some thei seme ) which we haue discussed hitherto alredie : how be it , god willynge , in the residewe yet to come , it shall be no doubte to the most affectionate frendis that he hath : onely those excepte , whiche gate it by the same meane , and holdeth it by the same tenour , that he came by it and helde it him selfe .

HERE .

Well sir , if there bee no better meanyng in Frithes woordes , then ye haue declared hitherto , I meruaile greatly , that euer he wolde speake them as he dooth .

CATH.

Dooest thou mernaile at that ?

HERE .

I can not choose .

CATH.

Then why doest thou not meruaile at an other thyng , which is a thousande tymes more meruellous then that is :

HE.

What is that ?

CATH.

That euer suche a number wolde folowe him as there hath done , and take him for so plaine , beyng so deceitfull : Take him so simple , being so traftie : Take him so wise , being so foolish : Take him so trewe , beyng so false . And of that numbre , so many welthie , as men dooth deme : so many wise , as them selfes dooth wene : so many politike , as thei seme : and yet spie not his falshed in all this time , what meruell maie be compared vnto it ? for where as the wisedom of one , shuld ouerthrow the foolishnes of many , here the wisdome of many , is clene ouerthrowen with the foolishnes of one : And also where as the falshed of one , shuld geue place to the trewth of many , here hath the trewth of many , cleane giuen place , to the falshed of one : who is able sufficiently to describe the wonderfulnes of this mattier ? Wherfore if thou fall to meruailynge , meruaile at this , whiche maie bee called a meruaile alone : And therfore because , in consideracion of our longe talke , it is nowe time to drawe to an ende . Remember that I haue declared vnto thee , although not all , nor halfe nother , but yet enough and enough , for thee to perceiue what maner of foundacion it is , wherin Frith bosteth and glorieth so greatly , that he is not ashamed , in reproche of master Moore , and auauncynge hym selfe , to saie ( as I tolde thee before ) these woordes .

This am I right suer of ( he saith ) that he neuer touched the foundacion , that my treatise was builded vpon . And therfore sith my foundacion standeth so suer and inuincible ( for els I thinke verily he wolde sore haue laboured to haue vndermined it ) I wyll therupon builde a little more . &c.

And againe : This was the foundacion ( he saith ) of my firste treatise , that he hath lefte vnshaken , whiche is a great argument that it is very trewe . For els his pregnant wit coulde not haue passed it so cleane ouer , but wolde haue assailed it with some sophisticall rauellacion . &c.

Howe false a riar he sheweth hym selfe herein , I take none other , but euen him selfe to witnesse in the. 56. leaf of his booke , where he reciteth maister Moores owne saiynge in these woordes .

God forbid ( saith maister Moore ) that any man shoulde be the more prone and readie to beleue this yonge man in this great matter , because he saith in the beginnyng , that he wyll bryng al men to a concorde and a quietnes of conscience . For he bringeth men to the worste kynde of quietnes that maie be deuised , when he telleth vs as he doth , that euery man in this matter , maie without perell beleue which wai he lust . Euery man mai in euery matter , without any counsaile , soone set him selfe at reste , if he luste to take that waie , and to beleue as he lust him selfe , and care not how . But and if that waie had bene suer , saint Paule wolde neuer haue shewed , that many were in perell of sicknes and death to , for lacke of discernyng reuerently the bodie of our Lorde in that sacramente , when thei came to receiue hym :

How saiest thou nowe ? dooth maister Moore leue this lyers false foundacion vntouched and vnshaken , as he shamefully saith and lyeth that he doth ? who , maie saie more vnto it , in so fewe woordes ? And yet as though it were nothynge so , I wolde not haue thee forget , how the false rainarde glorieth therin , as though he had wonderfull iuste , and good cause why so to dooe , how bee it , I dooe not greatly meruaile therat . For so muche ashamed is he to lie , as moste honeste men are , to saie the trewthe : And therfore with this I wyll leue thee nowe , and bede thee farewell .

Cap. 30. HERE .

Mary syr a faire farewell in dede .

CATH.

Why what eileth it ?

HE.

What shal I nede to tel you , if we parte nowe , and leue the matter thus ?

CA.

What remedie ? for I can tary no longer at this time :

HERE .

Then I praie you tell me , when we shall mete agayne :

CATH.

Mete againe ? why art thou not well yet ?

HERE .

Well yet quotha ? Mary sir all this is nothynge to that I looke for .

CATH.

what is that ?

HERE .

I looke for the scriptures , the olde holy doctours , and the natural reasons , that Frith bringeth for the profe of his principall purpose againste the reall presence of Christes veray bodie in the sacrament , whiche purpose he buildeth vpon this foundacion . These thyngꝭ I looke for , to see , what ye can saie to them : or whether ye be able to auoide them or not .

CATH.

I dooe plainly confesse , that I am not able in dede . For who can auoide holy scriptures , olde holy doctours , or naturall reason other ?

HERE .

Then if ye can not auoide them , ye must nedes graunte , that Frith hath his purpose .

CATH.

Naie softe , thou must pardon me therof . For although I can not auoide the holy scriptures , nor yet the olde holy doctours , that he bringeth for him : yet I can wel auoide his fals vnderstandynge of them . And what by them , hath he gotten then ? And as for his naturall reasons that thou speakest of , I am well able to proue , that they bee in the name of them , nothynge els , but a sorte of deceueable sophisticacions : wherin he plaieth as one did ( synce I maie remember ) beynge aboute to steale ware out of a shoppe in London , and perceiuyng that he was spied and lyke to bee taken , he to goe , and diuers after hym , criynge stoppe the thefe stoppe the thefe , and he herynge that , cried euen so lykewise hym selfe , as faste as they did , by reason wherof , suche as met hym in the waie , nothynge suspectynge hym , looked so muche after an other , whiche as thei thought shoulde bee before hym , that he by that meanes gat to saint Martyns , and deceiued them all . And so lykewise this wily sophister Frith , goynge aboute to steale from vs the trewthe of our feithe with his deceiueable sophisticacions , vnder the name and pretence of naturall reasons , and fearyng therwith to be taken , had none other shifte nor hope to scape , ( but as I tolde thee before ) to exclame and crie , beware of sophisters , beware of sophisters , thinkynge vtterly therby , that no man wolde suspects hym to bee any of that sorte : and yet in comparison of hym , there is none but he alone : wherof thou haste had a metely good profe alredie :

HERE .

What profe so euer I haue had alredie , I wolde here the profe of that whiche I nowe desyre :

CATH.

Thou shalte :

HERE .

Yea but when ?

CATH.

Euen when thou wilte thy selfe :

HERE .

That , by my wyll ; shall bee euen to morowe , while this that I haue herde to daie , is somewhat freshe in memorie .

CA.

Content .

HERE .

Then where shall I mete with you ?

CATH.

In no place better than here :

HE.

What time ? before noone or after ?

CA.

Naie it passeth an after noones woorke I maie saie to thee : for the whole daie longe , I suppose were littell enough . And therfore come by nyne or ten of the clocke at the fardest . For one thynge I will tell thee before , thou neuer herdest suche a woorke , of an heretike since thou were borne , as thou shalt here of him declared in this profe whiche thou requirest .

HE.

What wors then I haue herde to daie ?

CA.

Be thou iudge thy selfe when thou herest it :

HE.

Well sir , I will not faile the time apointed , for I shall now thinke longe till it come .

CA.

Therfore I will bede thee farewell till then :

HE.

No sir not yet , for I will bringe you homewarde .

CA.

That shall not nede :

HE.

Yes sir , for halfe your waie and mine is all one :

CA.

Then come on , let vs goe together for so farre :

HE.

That is my desyre . And therfore is it not as good we be talkyng by the waie for the time , as ought els ?

CA.

Yes , I am veray well pleased therwithal , if thou hast any thyng els to saie .

HE.

Yes mary sir , and that is this : I wolde faine knowe by what reason you can proue , that this same article , which we haue bene aboute all this while , is one of them , that we are bownde of necessitee to beleue vnder peine of damnacion : Ye haue hitherto inueied againste Frith , for holdyng the contrarie , but yet haue ye doone nothynge to the probacion therof your selfe : for it is two thynges to proue Frithes opinion false , and to proue yours trewe :

CATH.

Well , although the probacion of the trewthe , can not haue a veray apte and conuenient place , before the falsitee bee cleane reselled and throughly put awaie , and that in the whole , as it is not nowe , but in parte , yet all voide of thy request , I wyll not leue thee , because I perceiue thee , somewhat desyrous to here of the matter : And therfore while Frithes opinion is this , that it is an article of no necessitee to bee beleued , and our feithe is plaine to the contrarie , the one parte , or the other , muste nedes be trewe : wherfore because the one parte , or the other muste nedes be trewe , and betwene trewthe and falshed there can be no meane , it can not be auoided , but sith the falshed is founde of his syde : The trewthe muste nedes remaine with vs .

HERE .

Nay sir that foloweth not : for the falshed that ye fynde with Frithe , is in his probacion and not in the thynge , which he goeth aboute to proue . For ye knowe right well , that a man maie misse in the probacion of a trew thynge sometyme , and yet is not the thynge false , because the probacion is not trewe .

CATH.

So maiest thou excuse euery falshed , whiche any false harlot goeth aboute to proue trewe : for soone maiest thou saie , that although he faile in his probacion , yet is the thynge that he wolde proue , trewe enough for all that , because a man maie be deceiued in the probacion of a trew thynge . When in dede the faulsitee of a thynge , is ofte times more then halfe disclosed , by the falsitee of the probacion . And therfore although the manifeste falshed of Frithes probacions , dooe not euen very apertly proue the falshed of his opinion . Yet dooth it make at the least , an ineuitable coniecture therof . And therfore euen as much for the trewth of our side : for what shall or maie we gather of this , that all the reasons whiche he hath brought for his purpose , doth not only not proue his intent , but also draw after them suche odible consequences , as euery good christen eare must nedes abhorre to here ? what shall we gather ( I say ) of this , but that the mighty and inuincible trewth of the contrary part , will in no case suffre it selfe to be ouerthrowne . Furthermore , what wilt thou say , if Frith doe sufficiently proue our parte him selfe ?

HERE .

That can not be , for all his whole purpose is vtterly to the contrary .

CATH.

I graunt the same , and yet marke him well . For he intendinge in dede to proue the contrary , maketh neuer a reason , but that ( as I haue declared vnto the ) it renneth vtterly euen as much against the necessitee of other necessary articles beside , as it doth against this , for which he did purpose it : and that were not possible , but because the like or the very same necessitee of beliefe , is as wel in this , as in them , and all one : for how shuld his reasons purposed only against the necessary beliefe of this article , touch the necessary , beliefe of any other likewise , more than they touch the light of the sonne , the heat of the fire and other like , being no more purposed against those other necessary articles , then against these thinges , but vtterly because those articles and this , be all of one sort , and of like necessitee to be beleued , and eache of these thinges , that is to say , the light of the sonne , and the heat of the fire , cleane of an other sort ? For what reason so euer be brought against any thing , so farre it doth alway renne as the communitee of the thing , against which it is brought , doth extende , and no farther : As be it in case , that one were so madde , as to deny the immortalitee of thy soule , and wolde goe aboute to disproue the same . Yet what so euer reasons he shuld make against it , without faile must nedes renne likewise , euen as well against the immortalitee of all other mens soules beside , as against thine , and that could not be , but because that same immortalitee is commune and doth apperteine as well vnto thy soule as to theirs . Wherfore after the like maner , the cause why , that Frithes reasons doth renne , as well against the necessitee of other necessary articles , as it doth against the necessitee of this ( for which they were purposed ) is vtterly because , the very same necessitee of beliefe , is commune and doth aperteine as well vnto this , as to them and all one : for els it were not possible for those reasons purposed but onely against this , to make any thing more against the necessitee of those other , then against ( as I said ) the light of the sonne , or any thing els beside . Therfore it must nedes folow , that this article , is of as great necessitee to be beleued , as any of the other is . wherfore because Frith wolde haue proued it indifferent and could not , he hath therfore now proued it necessary and wolde not . Wherwith content thy selfe , thou gettest no more of me at this tyme .

HERE .

Yes I pray you sir , one thinge more , and then I will bid you farwell .

CA.

What is that ?

HERE .

Mary sir I haue redde Frithes boke , I wene as often as euer did you , and yet could I neuer finde or perceiue such matter therin , as ye haue declared , and I meruaile greatly what shuld bee the cause therof :

CATH.

It is no meruaile at all : for doubtles if Frith had no more trewth , vertue , wit , and learning in thine opinion , then he had in his owne head , thou shuldest sone haue perceiued in his booke , a great deale more , then I haue shewed the. And that shalt thou proue most trew , if thou do but withdraw thine opinion and affection from him .

HERE .

Trow ye so ?

CATH.

There is no doubt of that .

HERE .

Well sir , here is my way now , and therfore I will trouble you no longer at this tyme .

CATH.

Then farewell tyll to morow .

HERE .

God be with you sir .

CATH.

And with the to .

HERE .

At. ix . or x. of the clocke ye say .

CATHOLICVS .

What els ?

HERETICVS .

I will not faile you .