A common apologie of the Church of England against the vniust challenges of the ouer-iust sect, commonly called Brownists. Wherein the grounds and defences, of the separation are largely discussed: occasioned, by a late pamphlet published vnder the name, of an answer to a censorious epistle, which the reader shall finde in the margent. By I.H.

SECTION . II. The Answerers Preamble .

IT is a hard thing euen for those which would seem sober minded men in cases of controuersie , 1. Retorted . S●p . to vse soberly the frownes and disaduantages of causes and times : It is a hard thing euen for sober minded men in cases of controuersie , to vse soberly the aduantages of the times : vpon which whilst men are mounted on high , they vse to behold such as they oppose too ouerlie , and not without contempt ; and so are oft times emboldened to roule vpon them as from aloft very weake and weightlesse discourses , thinking any sleight and slender opposition sufficient to oppresse those vnderlings , whom they haue ( as they suppose ) at so great an aduantage . Vpon this very presumption it commeth to passe , that this Author vndertaketh thus solemnly and seuerely to censure a cause , whereof ( as appeareth in the sequell of the discourse ) hee is vtterly ignorant : which had he beene but halfe so carefull to haue vnderstood , as hee hath beene forward to censure , hee would either haue beene ( I doubt not ) more equall towards it , or more weightie against it . whereby whiles men are dei●cted and troden downe , they vse to behold their opposites mounted on high , too repiningly , and not without desperate enuie : & so are oftentimes moued , to shoote vp at them as from below , the bitter arrowes of spightfull and splenish discourses , thinking any hatefull opposition sufficiently charitable , to oppugne those aduersaries , which haue them ( as they feele ) at so great an aduantage : vpon this impotent malitiousnesse , it commeth to passe that this aunswerer vndertaketh thus seuerely and peremptorily , to censure that charitable censure of ignorance , which ( as shall appeare in the sequell ) he either simply , or willingly vnderstood not : and to brand a deare Church of Christ with Apostacy , Rebellion , Antichristianisme : What can bee more easie then to returne accusations ?

* * 2. Confuted . Your Preamble ( with a graue bitternes ) charges me with 1. Presumption vpon aduantages , 2. Weake and weightlesse discourse , 3. Ignorance of the cause censured : It had beene madnesse in me to write , if I had not presumed vpon aduantages , but of the cause , of the truth , not of the times : Though ( blessed bee God ) the times fauour the truth , and vs : if you scorn them and their fauours , complaine not to be an vnderling : Thinke that the times are wiser , then to bestow their fauours vpon willfull aduersaries ; but in spight of times , you are not more vnder vs in estate , then in conceipt aboue vs : so wee say the Sunne is vnder a cloud , we know it is aboue it . * * Hier. Marco . presbyt. De cauernis cellularum damnamus orbem ; in sacco & cinere volutati de Episcopis sententiam ferimus : Quid facit sub tunica paenitentis regius animus ? Would God ouerlinesse and contempt were not yours , euen to them which are mounted highest vpon best desert ; Cypr. l. 3. Ep. 9. Haec sunt initia haereticorum , vt sibi placean : , vt praepositum superbo tumore contemnant . Harison once theirs , in Psal. 122. of Brown . Antichristian pride and bitternes . Bredw . pref. M Brinsly his pref. to the 2. part of the Watch. Optat. Mil. de Donat. Collegae non eritis , si●o litis , fratres estis &c. and now you that haue not learned sobrietie in iust disaduantages , taxe vs , not to vse soberly the aduantages of time : there was no gall in my penne , no insultation , I wrote to you as brethren , and wish't you companions : there was more danger of flattery in my stile , then bitternesse : wherein vsed I not my aduantages soberly ? Not in that I said too much , but not enough ; Not in that I was too sharpe , but not weighty enough ; My opposition was not too vehement , but too sleight and slender : So , strong Champions blame their aduersary , for striking too easily : you might haue forborne this fault , it was my fauour that I did not my worst : you are worthy of more weight , that complaine of ease . The discourse that I rol'd downe vpon you , was weake and weightlesse ; you shall well finde this was my lenitie , Disclaimed by themselues . Answer against Broughton page . 21. not my impotence . The fault hereof is partly in your expectation , not in my letter : I meant but a short Epistle , you look't belike for a volume , or nothing ; I meant onely a generall monition ; you look't for a solide prosecution of particulars : It is not for you to giue taskes to others pennes . By what Lawe must wee write , nothing but large Scholasticall Discourses ? Such Tomes as yours : May we not touch your sore vnlesse wee will launce , and search it ? I was not enough your enemie ; forgiue me this errour , and you shall smart more : But not onely my omissions were of ignorance , but my censures , though seuere and solemne : An easie imputation from so great a Controuler : I pardon you , and take this as the common lot of enemies . I neuer yet could see any Scribler so vnlearned , as that he durst not charge his opposite with ignorance ; Separat . schism . M. Giff. an ignorant Priest . Barr. p. 64. Confer . of D. And. & M. Huchius . with Barrow . If Dr. Whitaker , M. Perkins , M. Gyfford , and that Oracle of our present times , Dr. Andrewes , went away content with this liuerie from yours ; how can I repine ? If I haue censured what cause I knew not , let me bee censured for more then ignorance , impudencie : but if you know not what I censured ( let all my trust lie on this issue ) take both ignorance , boldnesse , and malice to your selfe : Is your cause so mysticall ▪ that you can feare any mans ignorance ? What Cobler or Spinster hath not heard of the maine holds of Brownisme ? Am I only a stranger in Hierusalem ? If I know not all your opinions , pardon me : Your owne haue not receiued this illumination ; M. Spr. 3. 〈◊〉 . siderat . I speake boldly , not your selfe ; Euery day brings new conceites , and not one day teaches , but corrects another , Iren. l. 1. Per singulos . dies nouum aliquod adsectant . &c. you must be more constant to your selues , ere you can vpbraide ignorance or auoide it : But whether I knew your prime fancies , appeares sufficiently by a particular discourse , which aboue a yeare since was in the hands of some of your Clients , and I wonder if not in yours : Shortly ; am I ignorant ? If I were obstinate too , you might hope ( with the next gale ) for me , your more equall aduersarie , at Amsterdam . As I am ; my want of care and skil , shal ( I hope ) loose nothing of the trueth by you , nor suffer any of your foule aspersions vpon the face of Gods Church and ours .

But whiles we striue ; who shall be our Iudge ? The Christian Readers : who are those ? Presume not , yee more zealous and forward Countrey men , that you are admitted to this Bench : so farre are wee meere English , from being allowed Iudges of them ; that they haue already iudged vs to be no * * Bar. Confer . with Hutchins . fo. 1. Browne estat● of true Christians Defence of true Christians against the Doct. of Oxford . Iohnson ( against Iacob . ) passim . Barr. against Gyfford . Christians : We are Goates and Swine , no Sheepe of God : since then none but your Parlour in the West , and Amsterdam , must bee our Iudges , who ( I beseech you ) shall be our aduersaries ? God be iudge betwixt you and vs , and correct this your vnchristian vncharitablenesse . Sepa . As this Epistle is come to mine hands , so I wish the answere of it may come to the hands of him that occasioned it : Intreating the Christian Reader , in the name of the Lord , vnpartially to behold without either preiudice of cause , or respect of person , what is written on both sides , and so from the Court of a sound conscience to giue iust iudgement .

SECTION . III ▪ The parties written to , and their Crime .

I Wrote not to you alone : To M. Smith and M. Rob. Ring-leaders of the late separation at Amsterd . what is become of your partner , yea , your guide ? Woe is me , he hath renounced our Christendome with our Church : and hath wash't of his former water , with new : and now condemnes you all , for not separating further , no lesse then we condemne you for separating so far . As if you could not be enough out of Babylon , vnlesse you be out of your selues . Charact. of the Beast , written by M. Smith . Pref. Be it knowne therefore to all the separation , that we account them in respect of their constitution to be as very an Harlot , as either her Mother the Church of England , or her Grandmother Rome is &c. Iterato Baptizatus scienter , it erato Dominum crucifigit . De consecr. dist. 4. Qui vis &c. Alas miserable countrimen , whither runne you ? Religion hath but his height , beyond which is errour and madnesse : Hee telles you true , your station is vnsafe , either you must forward to him , or backe to vs .

* * The crime of separation , how great . I obiected separation to you : yet not so extreame as your answere bewrayes : a late separation , not the first ; my charity hoped you lesse ill , then you will needes deserue : you graunt it odious , because it casts imputation of euil vpon the forsaken : Of euill ? Yea of the worst , an estate incurable and desperate . He is an ill Phisitian that will leaue his patient vpon euery distemper , his departure argues the disease helpelesse ; were wee but faulty , as your Landlord Churches , your owne Rules would not abide your flight : Hence the Church of England iustly matches Separatists with the vilest persons : GOD himselfe doth so : who are more vile then Patrons of evill ? Sep. yet no greater woe , is to them that speake good of euill , The crime here obiected is separation , a thing very odious in the eyes of all them from whom it is made : as euermore casting vpon them the imputation of euill , whereof all men are impatient : And hence it commeth to pass● that the Church of England can better brooke the vilest persons continuing communion with it , then any whomsoeuer separating from it , though vpon neuer so ▪ iust and well grounded reasons . Vid. Iohnson Preface to his Inquirie . Esay . 5. 20. then those that speake euill of good : So , wise Generalls punish mutinous persons , worse then Robbers or Adulterers : M. Penry in his Disc. of this subiect . So Corah and his companie ( a Storie cunningly turned vpon vs by your Martyr ) for their opposition to Moses were more fearefully plagued then the Idolatrous Israelites : Num. 16 31. ●xod . 32. 30. These sinnes are more directly against common societie , the other more personall : and if both haue like iniquitie : yet the former haue both more offence and more danger : And if not so , yet who cannot rather brooke a lewd● seruant , then an vnduetifull sonne , though pretending faire colours for his disobedience ? At least , you thinke the Church of England thinkes her selfe Gods Church , as wel as your Saints of Amsterdam : You that so accurse Apostacie in others , could yee expect shee should brooke it in you ?

But your reasons are iust and well grounded : euery way of a man is right in his owne eyes : Said wee not well , Prou. 21. 2. that thou art a Samaritane , and hast a Diuell , say the Iewes ? What Schisme euer did not thinke well of it selfe ? For vs : wee call heauen and earth to record , your cause hath no more iustice then your selues haue charitie .

SECTION . IIII. The kinds of separation , and which is iust .

YEt there is a commendable and happie separation , Sepa . And yet separation from the world , and so from the men of the world , and so from the Prince of the world that raigneth in them , and so from whatsoeuer is contrarie to God , is the first steppe to our communion with God , and Angels , and good men , as the first steppe to a Ladder , is to leaue the earth . from the world , from the Prince , and men of the world , and whatsoeuer is contrarie to God : who doubts it ? 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . There were no heauen for vs without this , no Church ; which hath her name giuen by her father and husband of calling out from other . Out of the Egypt of the world dooth God call his sonnes : But this separation is into the visible Church from the world , not ( as yours ) out of the Church , because of some particular mixtures with the world : or ( if you had rather take it of profession ) out of the world of Pagans and Infidels , into the visible Church , not out of the world of true ( though ●aultie ) Christians into a purer Church . That I may here at once for all giue light to this point of separation : we finde in Scripture a separation either to good , or from euill : To good , Num. 18. 14 : so the Leuites were separated from among the children of Israel to beare the Arke , Num. 16. 9. and to minister : Deut. 10. 1. so the first borne , Exod. 13. 12. first fruites , and Cities of refuge : Leuit. 15. 21. So Paul was ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) separated , which some would haue allude to his Pharisaisme , Deut. 4. 41. but hath plaine reference to Gods owne words ( Act. 13. 2. ) separate me Barnabas and Saul : Rom. 1. 1. Though this is rather a destination to some worthy purpose , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . then a properly called separation .

From euill , whither sinne or sinners : From sinne , so euery soule must eschew euill , whether of doctrine or manners , and disclaime all fellowship with the vnfruitfull workes of darknesse , whither in himselfe or others . 1. Thess. vlt. ad fin . Iere. 15. 19. Vide Tremel ▪ & Iun. So S. Paul charges vs to holde that which is good , and abstaine from all appearance of euill : so Ieremie is charged to separate the pretious ( doctrine or practise ) from the vile . From sinners , not onely practised by God himselfe ( to omit his eternall and secret Decree whereby the elect are separated from the Reprobate ) both in his gratious vocation , sequestring them from nature and sinne , as also in his execution of iudgment , whether particular , as of the Israelites from the Tabernacles of Corah , or Vniuersall , Num. 16. and finall , of the Sheepe from the Goates ; But also inioyned from God to men , Mat. 15. ad fin . 2. Chro. 19 2. 1. Cor. 6. ad fin . Nulla cum malis Conuivia vel colloquia misceantur , simusque ab ijs tam separati , quam sunt illi ab Ecclesia Dei profugi . Cypr. l. 1. Epist. ad Cornel. 2. in respect either of our affection , or of our yoake , and familiar society , whereof Saint Paul : Be not vnequally yoaked with Infidels , Come out from among them , and seperate your selues . In all this we agree : In the latitude of this last onely we differ : I finde you call for a double separation , A first separation in the gathering of the Church : A second , in the managing of it : The first at our entrance into the Church , the second in our continuance : the first of the Church , from Pagans & Worldlings , by an initiatory profession : The second of leud men from the Church by iust censures : You speake confusedly of your own separation , one while of both , another while of either single . For the first , either confesse it done by our Baptisme , or else you shall be forced to hold we must rebaptise : Char act . of Beast praef. But of this Constitu●ine separation anone . For the second , of sinners , whether in iudgement or life , some are more grosse , haynous , incorrigible : others lesse notorious , and more tractable : those other must be separated by iust censures : not these : Which censures if they be neglected , the Church is foule and ( in your Pastors word ) faultie , and therefore calles for our teares , Iohns . Inquir . not for our flight . Now of Churches faulty and corrupted , some race the foundation , others , on the true foundation build Timber , hay , Stubble : From those we must separate , from these we may not . Peters is eternall , Ioh. 6. 68. Whither shall we goe from thee , thou hast the wordes of eternall life : where these wordes are found , wo be to vs if we be not found . Amongst many good separations then , yours cannot be separated from euill , for that we should so farre separate from the euill , that therefore wee should separate from Gods children in the communion of the holy thinges of God , that for some ( after your worst done ) not fundamentall corruptions , wee should separate from that Church , in whose wombe we were conceiued , and from betwixt whose knees wee fell to God : H. Cl. Epistle before Treatis of sinne ag. Holy Gh. in a word ( as one of yours once said ) to separate not only from visible euill , but from visible good , as all Antichristian : who but yours can thinke lesse then absurd and impious ? Grant we should be cleane separated from the world , yet if we be not , must you be separated from vs ? Neque propter paleam relinquim are am Domini , neque propter pisces malos rumpimus retia Domini . August . Ep. 48. Doe but stay till God haue separated vs from himselfe : will the wise husbandman cast away his Corne-heape for the chaffe and dust ? Shall the Fisher cast away a good draught because his drag-net hath weedes ? Doth God separate from the faithfull soule , because it hath some corruptions , her Inmates , though not her commaunders ? Certainely , if you could throughly separate the world from you , you would neuer thus separate your selues from vs : Beginne at home , separate all selfe-loue , and selfe-will , and vncharitablenesse from your heart , Answ. Counterpoyson p. 2. and you cannot but ioyne with that Church , from which you haue separated : Your Doctor would perswade vs you separate from nothing but our corruptions : you are honester , and graunt it from our Church : it were happie for you , if he lied not : who in the next page confutes himselfe , shewing that you separate from vs , Counter p. p. 7 & 8. &c as Christ from the Samaritans , namely from the Church , not the corruptions only ; and not as hee did from the Iewes , namely from their corruptions , not from their Church : His memory saues our labour , and marres his Discourse .

SECTION . V. The antiquity and examples of separation .

YEt if not equity , it were well you could pleade age : This your separation in the nature and causes of it ( you say ) is no lesse auncient then the first institution of enmity betwixt the two seedes , you might haue gone a little higher , and haue said , then our first parents running from God in the Garden , Sep. The separation we haue made in respect of our knowledge , and obedience , is indeed late , and new yet is it in the nature and causes thereof as auncient as the Gospell , which was first founded in the enmity which God himselfe put betwixt the seede of the woman , and the seede of the serpent , Gen. 3 , 15 or their separation from GOD by their sinne : But wee take your time , and easily beleeue that this your late separation was founded vpon that auncient enmity of the seede of the serpent , ●useb : h●st Eccl: with the womans . That subtile Diuell when he saw the Church breath from the persecutions of Tyrants , vexed her no lesse with her owne diuisions : seeking that by fraude , which by violence he could not effect . Hence all the fearefull Schismes of the Church , whereof yours is part . This enm●ty hath not onely beene successiuely contiuued , but also too visibly manifested by the actuall ( but wilfull ) separation of heretickes and Sectaries from the Chuch in all ages : But I mistake you , yours is as auncient as the Gospel : What ? that Euangelium aeternum of the Friers ? Hen: Steph. Ap●l . Herod . Fo● A●t & monum . H. N. his booke Gal. 1. 6. Eph. 6. 17. Colos. 1 5. 1. Tin. 1. 11. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . whose name they accursedly borrowed from Reuel. 14. 6. Or that Euangelium regni of the Familists ? Or that Euangelium aliud , whereof Saint Paul taxeth his Galatians ? None of all these , you say ; but as that Gospell of Peace , of Truth , of Glory ; so auncient , and neuer knowne till Bolton , Barrow , and Browne ? Could it escape all the holy Prophets , Apostles , Doctors of the old , middle , and later world , and light onely vpon these your three Patriarchs ? Perhaps Nouatus or Donatus ( those Saints ) with their Schooles had some little glimpse of it ; but this perfection of knowledge is but late and new : So , many rich mines haue lien long vnknown , and great parts of the world haue been discouered by late Venturers . If this course haue come late to your knowledge and obedience , not so to others : For loe , it was practised successiuely in the constitution and collection of all t●ue Churches , Sep. Which enmity hath not onely beene successiuely continued , but also visibly manifested by the actuall separation of all true Churches , from the world in their collection and constitution , before the law , vnder the law , and vnder the Gospell , Gen. 4 : 13 , 14 , 16 & 6. 1 , 2 , & 7 : 1 , 7. with 1 Pet: 3 , 20 , 21 & 12. 2 I●● 20 , 24 , 26 Neh : 9 , 2 Ioh: 17 , 14 , 16 , Act. 2 , 40 , & 19 , 9 , 1 : Cor 6 , 17 : through al times , before the law , vnder the law , after it : Wee haue acknowledged many separations : but as soone shall you finde the time past in the present , as your late separation , in the auncient and approued You quote Scriptures , though ( to your praise ) more dainty indeed then your fellowes . Iren. de Valentin . l. 1. Who cannot doe so ? Ianumerabil● multitudin●m scripturarum quas ipsi sin●erunt afferunt ad stuporem insensatorum . Who hath not ? Euen Sathan himselfe cytes the word against him which was the word of his Father . Let vs not number , but weigh your texts : The rather , for that I finde these as your Master-proofes , Vid. Preface to Master Iacobs and Iohnsons Confer . & Barr. pass . set as Challengers in euery of your defences : In Gen. 4. 13. Caine a bloody Fratricide is excommunicated : In Gen. 6. 1. 2. The sonnes of God married the daughters of men . In Gen. 7. 1. & 7. Noah is approued as righteous , and enters the Arke : In 1. Pet. 3. 20 , 21. The rest in Noahs time were disobedient , and perished : What of all this ? Alas , what mockage is this of the Reader , and Scriptures : Surely , you euen ioyne Scriptures , as you separate your selues : This is right as your Pastor , to proue all members of the visible Church , Descript , of true visib . Ch: elect and pretious stones , cytes 1. K. 7. 9. where is speech only of Salomons house in the Forest of Lebanon , his Porch for his Throne , his Hall , his Pallace for Pharachs daughter , and when hee comes to describe the office of his imaginary doctor thwacks fourteene Scriptures into the margent , Nihil autem ●irum fi & ex ipsius instrumento a●tentur argumenta , cum oporteat haereses esse , quae esse non possent si non & perperam scripturae intelligi possent . Tertull. de resur . whereof not any one hath any iust colour of inference to his purpose : and in his discourse of the power of the Church ( that hee might seeme to honour his margent with shew of textes ) hath repeated sixe places twise ouer in the space of sixe lines . Ibid : For these of yovrs : you might obiect the first to the Cainites not to vs : So Barrow tearmes Mast. Gyff . Re●ut . p. 102. Cain was cast out worthily . Doe wee either denie , or vtterly forbeare this censure ? Take heed you follow him not in your voluntary exile to the land of Nod. The second you might obiect to those mungrell Christians that match with Turkes and Pagans . There are sonnes of God , that is , members of the visible Church , and daughters of men , which are without the bounds , meere Infidels ; it is sinne for those sonnes to yoake themselues with those daughters . What is this to vs ? Noah was righteous , Si Christianus Iudaicae praeuaricanti carnaliter coniungatur , a commumone Ecclesiaesegregetur . the multitude disobedient : Who denies it ? yet Noah separated not from that corrupted Church till the flood separated him from the earth , but continued an auncient Preacher of righteousnesse , euen to that peruerse and rebellious generation . But it sufficeth you that Caine and the Giants were separated from the rest : Dist. 28. q. 1 Caue . & cap. si quis Iudaicae , &c. 1. Pet. 3. 19. 2. Pet. 2. 5. We yeelde it : what will follow hence saue onely that notorious malefactors must be cast out , and professed Heathen not let into the Chruch ? We hold , and wish no lesse : your places euince no more . These , before the law : In Leuit. 20. 24. 26. God chose out Israel from other people : This was Gods act , not theirs : a sequestring of his Israelites from the Gentiles , not of Israel from it selfe : yours is your owne , and from men , in all maine points , of your owne profession : But therefore Israel must be holy : If any man denie holinesse to be required of euery Christian , let him feele your Maranatha . In Nehem. 9. 2. The Israelites separated themselues from the strangers , which were Infidels : whether in their marriage , or deuotion : Neither Gods seruice , nor an Israelites bedde was for Heathens . This was not the constituting of a new Church , but reforming of the olde : If therefore you can parallell vs with Pagans , and your selues will bee Iewes , this place fittes you . Lastly , what if there be an hatred betwixt the world & Christs true Disciples , Ioh. 17. 14. 16 ? what if Peter charged his auditors to saue themselues from the errours and practise of that froward generation , whose handes were yet freshly imbrued with the blood of Christ , Act. 2. 40. ? What if the same which Peter taught , Paul practised , in separating his followers from hearing some obstinate and blasphemous Iewes , Act. 19. 9 ? What if the Church of Corinth , were Saints by calling , 1. Cor. 1. 2 ? and therfore must be separated from the yoake of Infidels , 2. Cor. 6. 17 ? Are these your patternes ? Are these fit matches for your brethren , baptized in the same water and name , professing euery point of the same true faith , vsing ( for substance ) the same worshippe with you ? Hee that saith he is in the light , and hateth his brother is in darkenesse , 1. Ioh. 2. 9.

SECTION . VI. What separation is to be made by Churches in their planting , or restauration .

BVT all these examples perhappes are not so much to warrant what you haue done , as to condemne the Church of England for what shee hath not done : for such a separation she neither hath made nor doth make , Sep. Which separation the Church of England neither hath made , nor doth make , but stands actually one with al that part of the world within the kingdom , without separation : for which cause amongst others , we haue chosen by the grace of God , rather to separate our selues to the Lord from it , then with it from him , in the visible constitution of it . but standes actually one with all that part of the world within the kingdome without separation . Loe here the maine ground of this Schisme , which your Proto-Martyr Barrow hammers vpon in euery page ; In his Preface to the Reader , and in his causes of separ defended p. 4 Eiusdem p. 10 Resutat . of M. Gyff . p 22. & 2. Transgress . p 51 , 52. & 55. 66 & 70. 85. & 86. &c. an ill constitution : Thus he comments vpon your wordes : For where such prophane confuse multitudes without any exception , separation , or choice were all of them from publique idolatrie , at one instant receiued or rather compel'd to be members of the Church , in some parish or other , where they inhabited , without any due calling to the faith by the preaching of the Gospell going before , or orderly ioyning together in the faith , there being no voluntarie or particular confession of their owne faith and dueties made , or required of any , and lastly no holy walking in the faith amongst them : who can say that these Churches consisting of this people were euer rightly gathered or built , according to the rule of Christs Testament . In his words and yours I finde both a mis-collection , and a wronge charge . For the former : the want of noting one poore distinction breedes all this confusion of doctrine , and separation of men : for there is one case of a new Church to be called from Heathenisme to Christianity , another of a former Church to be reformed from errours , to more sincere Christianity ; In the first of these is required indeede a solemne initiation by Baptisme , and before that , a voluntarie and particular confession of faith , and therefore a cleare separation , and exception of the Christian , from the Infidell : In the latter neither is new Baptisme lawfull ( though some of you belike of olde were in hand with a rebaptization : Inconstanc● of Brown p. ●o . Inquiry into M. White , confessed by Fr. Iohnson p. 63. which not then speeding , succeedeth now to your shame ) nor a new voluntary and particular confession of Faith besides that in Baptisme ( though very commendable ) will

euer be prooued simply necessary to the being of a Church ; so long as the erring parties doe actually renounce their doctrines , and in open profession imbrace the truth ; and ( as generally in the publique confession ) so particularly vpon good occasion giue iust testimonies of their repentance : This is our case , we did not make a new Church , but mended an old : your Clifton is driuen to this hold by necessity of argument ; Passag . 'twixt Clifton and Smith : And concerning the constitution of the Churches , &c. But the constituting of Churches now after the defection of Antichrist may more properly be called a repairing then a constituting , &c. p. 60. Otherwise he sees there is no auoiding of Anabaptisme : Mended , saith your Doctor , and yet admitted the miscelline rabble of the prophane ? Say now that such separation were not made : Let some few be holy , and the more part prophane : Shall the lewdnesse of some disanul Gods couenant with others ? This is your mercy ; Gods is more : who still held Israel for his , when but fewe held his pure seruice : psal. 106. Let that diuine Psalmist teach you how full the Tents of Israel were of mutinous rebels in the desert ; yet the piller by day & night forsooke them not ; and Moses was so farre from reiecting them ; that he would not indure God should reiect them to his owne aduantage : Looke into the blacke censures , and bitter complaints of all the Prophets , & wonder that they separated not : Looke into the increased masse of corruptions in that declined Church : whereof the blessed eyes of our Sauiour were witnesses , and maruell at his silent and sociable incuriousnesse : Matth. 23. yea his charge of not separating ; yee knowe not of what spirite you are : Nowe you flye to constitution , as if notorious euils were more to tollerable in the continuance , then in the collection of assembles : Sar di had but a few names that had not defiled their garments ; Reuel : 34. God praises these , biddes them not separate from the rest ; Thyatir● suffers a false Prophetesse ? the rest that haue not this learning , Reuel . ● . 24. yet are bidden but to hold their owne ; not to separate from the Angell , which hath not separated Iezebel from the Church .

SECTION . VII . What separation the Church of England hath made .

YOur charge is no lesse iniurious ; that the Church of England hath made no separation : Concerning which , you haue learned of your Martyr , and Ouerseers so to speake , Bar. p. 22. & 55. Fr. Iohns . ag. M. H. as if before her late disclamation of Popery , in Queene Elizabeths time , she had not beene . Her Monuments could haue taught you better , and haue ledde you to her auncient Pedigree not much below the Apostolike daies , and in many discents haue shew'd you not a few worthy witnesses and Patrons of Truth ; Act. & Mon. passim . all which with their holy and constant of-spring it might haue pleased you to haue separated from this imputation of not separating : Will you know therefore how the Church of England hath separated ? In her first conuersion she separated her selfe from Pagans ; in her continuance she separated her selfe from grosse heretiques , and sealed her separation with blood : in her reformation she separated her selfe from wilfull Papists by her publique profession of Truth , and proclaimed hatred of errour ; and she daily doth separate the notoriously euil by suspensions by excommunications , though not so many as yours : Besides the particular separations of many from the acknowledged corruptions , Troubl . and excom. pa. 191 M. Spr. p. 1. in iudgement , profession , practise . All these will be auowed in spight of all contradiction : with what forehead then can you say ; the whole Church of England hath not at all separated ?

After all your shifts and idle tales of constitution , you haue separated from this Church against the Lord , not with the Lord , from it : If there be Christ with vs , if the spirit of God in vs , if Assemblies , if calling by the word : Fr. Iun. lib. de Eccles. whatsoeuer is , or is not else in the Constitution , there is whatsoeuer is required to the essence of a Church , no corruption eyther in gathering or continuance can destroy the truth of being , but the grace of being well : If Christ haue taken away his word and spirit , you haue iustly subduced ▪ els you haue gone from him in vs .

And when you haue al done , the Separatists Idol , visible Constitution , will proue but an appendance of an externall forme , no part of the essence of a true Church : and therefore your separation no lesse vain then the ground , then the Authours . Lastly , if our bounty should ( which it cannot ) grant , that our collection was at first deepely faulty : cannot the Ra●ihabition ( as the Lawyers speake ) bee drawne backe ? Ratihabitio retroha●● , &c. Subsequens consensus Iacob in Leam fecit eos coniuges , d. 29. q 1. S. sed obijcitur In contracts ( your owne similitude ) a following consent iustifies an act done before consent , and why not in the contract betwixt GOD , and his visible Church ? Loe , he hath confirm'd it by his gratious benedictions , and as much as may bee in silence , giuen vs abundant proofes of his acceptation : That after-act , Barr. ag. Gyff which makes your baptisme lawfull , why can it not make our Church ?

SECTION . VIII . Constitution of a Church .

BBut for as much as Constitution is the very state of Brownisme , Let vs ( I beseech you ) inquire a little into the Complexion of your Constitution : Whether Physicke , or Lawe , or Architecture haue lent you it : sure I am , it is in this vse , Apocryphall : Neuer man vsed it thus scrupulously till your times : Though , what neede you the helpe of Fathers or Schooles , new words must expresse new Paradoxes . It is no treason to coyne tearmes : What then is Constitution ? Your Doctor can best tell vs : As the Constitution of a Common-wealth , H. Answ. Counter p. p. 17● or of a City is a gathering or vniting of people together into a ciuill policy : So ( saith he ) the Constitution of the Common-wealth of Israel , and of the City of God , the new Ierusalem , is a gathering and vniting of people into a Diuine Politie : The forme of which Polity , is Order : which Order is requisite in all actions , and Administrations of the Church , as the Apostle sheweth , and specially in the Constitution thereof : So that next vnto faith in God , it is to be esteemed most necessary for all holy societies . Colos. 2. 5. Hence Paul reioyced in the Colossians order and faith : To this Constitution therefore , belong a people as the matter , secondly , a calling or gathering together as the form , wherof the Church consisteth . The Constitution of the Church of England is false in both : Why so ? Ha●● we not a people ? Are not those people called together ? To preuent this , you say our Constitution is false , not none : Why false ? Because those people haue neither faith , Tertull. de Prescript . nor order . For faith first : Who are you , that dare thus boldy breake into the Closets of God , Tu vt homo extrimsecus vitumquemque nosti , putas quod vides , vides autem quonsque oculos habes , sed oculi Domini sunt alti , Homo in faciem , Deus in praecordiae contemplatur . the hearts of men ? and condemne them to want that , which cannot be seene by any but Diuine eies ? how dare you intrude thus into the throne of your Maker ? Consider , and conferre seriously : What faith is it , that is thus necessarily required to each member in this Constitution ? Your owne Doctor shall define it : Faith required to the receiuing in of members , is the knowledge of the doctrine of saluation by Christ 1. Cor. 12. 9. Gal. 3. 2. Now I beseech you in the feare of God , Principles & inferences concerning the visible Ch. An. 1607 , p : 13 lay by a while all vnchristian preiudice , and peremptory verdicts of those soules , which cost Christ as much blood as your owne : and tell mee ingenuously , whether you dare say , that not onely your Christian brethren with whom you lately conuersed , but euen your forefathers , which liued vnder Queene Elizabeths ? first confused reformation , knew not the doctrine of saluation by Christ : if you say they did not , your 〈◊〉 iudgement shal be punished fearefully , by him whose office you vsurpe . As you looke to answere before him that would not breake the bruised Reede ; nor quench the smoaking Flaxe , presume not thus aboue men and Angels : If they did , then had they sufficient clayme both to true Constitution and Church : But this faith must be testified by obedience , so it was : If you thinke not so , yours is not testified by loue : Both were weake , both were true : Weakenes in any grace or worke , takes not away truth : Their sinnes of ignorance could no more 〈◊〉 Gods couenant with them , them multiplicity of wiues with the Patriarches .

SECTION . IX . Secondly ▪ Order .

WHat wanted they then ? Nothing but Order ; Part of Constitution , how farr requisite , and whether hindred by Constraint . and not all Order , but yours : Order , a thing requisite and excellent , but let the world indge whether essentiall : Consider now , I beseech you in the bowels of Christ Iesus , whither this be a matter for which heauen and earth should be mixed : whether for want of your Order , all the world must be put out of all Order , and the Church out of life and being : Nothing ( say we ) can be more disorderly , then the confusion of your Democracy , or popular state ( if not Anarchy● ) Where all ( in a sort ) ordaine and excommunicate ; We condemne you not for no true members of the Church : what can be more order 〈◊〉 ( by your owne confusions ) then the 〈◊〉 ▪ D. 〈…〉 Brownists . Brow● 〈◊〉 of true Christians Inquir into M. White . Church at Amsterdam , which yet you graunt but faulty , If there be disproportion and dislocation of some parts , is it no true humane bodie ? will you rise from the feast , vnlesse the dishes be set on in your owne fashion ? Is it no City , if there be mud-walles halfe-broken , low Cottages vnequally built , no state house ? But your order hath more essence , then you can expresse ; and is the same which Politicians in their trade call ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) an incorporating into one common ciuill body ; Answ. ibid. Arist. Pol. 3 : c : 1. by a voluntary vnion , and that vnder a lawfull gouernment : Our Church wants both : wherein there is both constraint , and false office . Take your owne resemblance and your owne asking : Say that some tyrant ( as Basilius of Russia ) shall forceably compell a certaine number of subiects into Mosco , and shall hold them in , by an awfull Garison , forcing them to new lawes and Magistrates , perhappes hard and bloody : They yeeld , and making the best of all , liue together in a cheerefull communion , with due commerce , louing conuersation , submissiue execution of the inioyned lawes : In such case , Whether is Mosco a true City , or not ? Since your Doctor cytes Aristotle ; let it not irke him to learne of that Philosopher , Arist. Pol: 3 : c. 1 : who can teach him , that when Clisthenes had driuen out the Tyrants from Athens , and set vp a new Gouernement , Edesius & Frumentius pueri a Meropio Tyrio-Philosoph● in Indian deportati , postea ibi Christianam religionem plantarunt . Ruffin . l. 1. ● 9. Faemina i●ter Iberos . and receiued many strangers , and bondmen into the Tribes , it was doubted , not which of them were citizens , but whither they were made Citizens vniustly . If you should finde a company of true Christians in vtmost India , would you stand vpon tearmes , and inquire how they became so ? Whiles they haue what is necessary for that heauenly profession ; what need your curiosity trouble it selfe with the meanes ?

SECTION . X. Constraint requisite .

YOu see then what an idle plea constraint is in the Constitution of a City , the ground of all your exception : But it is otherwise in Gods Citie , the Church ; why then doth his Doctor shippe parallell these two ? And why may not euen constraint it selfe haue place in the lawfull constitution or reformation of a Church ? Did not Manisses after his comming home to God , 2. Chron. 33. 16 charge and commaund 〈◊〉 to serue the Lord God of Israel ? Did not worthy Iosiah when he had made a couenant before the Lord , 2. Chr. 34. 32. 33 cause all that were found in Ierusalem , and Beniamin to stand to it , and compelled all that were found in Israel , to serue the Lord their God ? What haue Queene Elizabeth , 2. Chron. ●5 . 13 : or King Iames done more ? or what other ? Did not Asa vpon Obeds prophesie , gather both Iudae and Beniamin , and al the strangers from Ephraim , Manasses , and Simeon , and enact with them , that whosoeuer would not seeke the Lord God should be slaine ? Barr. ag. Ciff . Brow . Reform . without . tarry : Greene wood Confer with Cooper . Brow . refor : without tar . Confer . with D. And ▪ M. Hutch ▪ Confer . with D. An. Refor . without tar . What meanes this perue●snesse ? You that teach we may not stay Princes leasure to reforme , will you not allow Princes to vrge others to reforme ? What crime is this , that men were not suffered to be open Idolaters , that they were forced to yeeld submission to Gods ordinances ? Euen your owne teach that Magistrates may compell infidelles to heare the doctrine of the Church ; and Papists , you say elsewhere ( though too roughly ) are infidells : But you say , not to be members of the Church : Gods people are of the willing sort : True , Neither did they compell them to this : They were before entred into the visible Church by true Baptisme , Ber. Fides Suadenda non : cogenda . Counterpois . though miserably corrupted . They were not now initiated , but purged : Your 〈◊〉 Doctor 〈◊〉 vs from Bernard that faith is to be 〈…〉 , to bee compelled yet let him 〈◊〉 that the guests must bee compelled to come in , Dixit Paterfamilias seruis Quoscunque inueneritis , cogite intrare &c. Aug. ●p. 48. though not to eat when they are come . Compelled , not by perswasions ; for these were the first inuitation● , therfore by further meanes ; Though this conceit hath no place with vs ; where men were vrged not to receiue a new faith , but to performe the old ; Pless . de Eccles. c. 10 to abandon that wicked Idolatry which had defiled them ; Augustin . Quod si cogiper legem aliquem vel ad bona licuisset , vos ipsi miseri 〈◊〉 nobis ad fidem purissimam cogi debuistis , sed absit a nostra conscientia , vt ad 〈…〉 . and to entertaine but that truth , which the very power of their Baptisme challenge that their hand ▪ But this was the old song of the Donatists ; Far bee it from our conscience to compell any man to the faith . If God did not draw vs , and by asweat violence bend our wils to his , when should we follow him ? Either you haue not read , or not cared for the practise of the auncient Church , and Augustines resolution concerning the sharpe penalties , imposed vpon the Donatists ( would God none of your kindred ) in his time , August . Epist. 48. 〈◊〉 . 68. Qui freneticum ligat , & qui 〈…〉 Quod 〈◊〉 umus sanctum est . with his excellent defences of these proceedings .

SECTION . XI . Constitution of the Church of England .

BVt tell vs then , what should haue beene done ? The Gospell should haue beene euery where preached ; Bar. and Greenew . pas●im : All conuer●s should haue been singled out , and haue gi●en a voluntary and particular confession of their faith , and repentance : I answere you : The Gospell was long and worthily preached in the dayes of King Edward ; enough to yeeld both Martyres to the stake , and professors to the succeeding times : Were their holy Sermons , their learned writings , and their pretious blood ( which was no lesse vocall ) of no force ? Afterwards , in the beginning of famous Queene Elizabeths reparation , what confluence was there of zealous Confessors returning now from their late exile ? How painefully and Diuinely did they labour in this Vineyard of God ? How did they ( with their many holy Partners , which had shrowded themselues during that storme of persecution , in a dangerous secrecy ) spread themselues ouer this land , and each-where drew flockes of hearers to them , and with them ? Is all this nothing to their ingrateful posterity ? If you murmure that there was no more , take heede least you forget there were so many : for vs , wee doe seriously blesse God for these , and triumph in them .

All this premised ; now comes a Christian Edict from the State , that euery man shall yeelde obedience to this truth , wherein they had beene thus instructed : It was performed by the most , whose submission , what was it but an actuall profession of their faith , and repentance ? And since such was their face , who dares iudge of their hearts ? More then this , if euer can bee shewed absolutely necessary in such a state of the Church to the very Constitution , and repaired . Beeing thereof , I do here vow neuer to take the Church of England for my mother .

We know , H. answ. Counterp . and grieue to see how scornfully your whole Sect , and amongst the rest , your resolute Dr. turnes ouer these gratious entrances and proceedings of these two royall and blessed Reformers ; and whom should he finde to raise his scoffes vpon , but that Saint-like Historian Master Foxe ? Act & Monum . Edit. 5. p. 1180. Now ( saies Master Foxe ) a new face of things began to appeare , as it were in a Stage , new Players comming in , the olde thrust out : Counterp. 226. Now ( saieth your Doctors Comment ) new Bishoppes came in , as Players vpon the olde Stage of the Popish Church , as if the Church were no whit altered , but the men : Shall we say this is too much malice , or too little wit , and conscience ? Euen in the Lord Protectors daies , that holy man reports , that after the Scriptures restored , and Masses abolished , greater thinges followed these softer beginnings , in the reformation of the Churches : Learned and godly Diuines were called for from forraine parts , P. Martyr . P. Fagius . Bucer . &c. a separation was made ( though not so much willing , as wilfull ) of open and manifest aduersaries from Professors , whether true or dissembled : Commissioners were appointed to visite euery seuerall Diocesse . Euery Bench of them had seuerall godly and learned Preachers to instruct the people in the truth , and to disswade them from Idolatry and Superstition . The Popes Supremacy not thrust , but taught downe : All wil-worshippe whatsoeuer , oppugned by publique Sermons : Images destroyed , Pilgrimages forbidden , the Sacraments inioyned to be reuerently , and holily ministred , Ecclesiastical persons reformed in life , in doctrine : Processions laide downe , Presence and attendance vpon Gods word commanded , the holy expending of Sabboth dayes appointed , due preparation to Gods table called for , set times of teaching inioyened to Bishoppes and other Ministers , all shr●nes and Monuments of Idolatry required to be vtterly taken from publique and priuate houses : Sixe Arti. 1547 All this , before his Parliament : By that , all bloody lawes against Gods trueth were repealed , zealous Preachers encouraged , so as ( saith that worthy Historian ) God was much glorified , Pag. 1182. Col. 2. 60. and the people in many places greatly edified : What neede I goe further then this first yeare ? Heare this and be ashamed , and assure your selues that no man can euer read those holy Monuments of the Church but must needes spit at your separation . After that sweete and hopefull Prince , what his renowmed sister Queene Elizabeth did , the present times doe speake and the future shall speake , when all these Murmurers shall sleepe in the dust . The publique disputations , zealous Preachings , restaurations of banished religion and men , extirpations of Idolatry , Christian lawes , wise and holy proceedings , and renewed couenants with God , are still fresh in the memories of some , and in the eares of all , so as all the world wil iustly say , you haue lost shame with truth , in denying it : Yea to fetch the matter yet further , If the Reader shall looke backe to the daies of their Puissant Father King Henry the eight , Act. & . Monum Pag. 999. & 1000. he cannot but acknowledge ( especially during the time of Queene Anne , and before those sixe bloody Articles ) a true face of a Church ( though ouer-spreade with some morphue of corruptions ) and some commendable forwardnesse of Reformation : for both the Popes Supremacy was abrogated , the true doctrine of Iustification commonly taught , confidence in Saints vntaught , the vanity of Pardons declared , worshippe of Images and Pilgrimages forbidden , learned and godly Ministers required , their absences and mis-demeaners inhibited , the Scriptures translated , publickly and priuately inioyned to be read , and receiued , the word of God commaunded to be sincerely and carefully preached : Act & Monum Edit. 5. p. 1002. and to all this , holy Master Foxe addeth for my conclusion , such a vigilant care was then in the King and his Councell , how by all wayes and meanes to redresse Religion , to reforme errours , to correct corrupt customes , to helpe ignorance , and to reduce the mis-leadings of Christs Flocke , drowned in blinde Popery , superstitious customes , and Idolatry to some better forme of Reformation , whereunto he prouided not onely these Articles , Precepts , Iniunctions aboue specified , to inform the rude people , but also procured the Bishops to helpe forward the same cause of decayed doctrine , Bar. ag. Gyff . Conference . with Sperin . & M. Egerton . with their diligent preaching , and teaching of the people . Goe now & say , that suddenly in one day , by Queen Elizabeths trumpet , Greenw . & Bar. Arg. to M. Car. twr . M. Trauers , M. Chark . or by the sound of a Bell , in the name of Antichrist , all were called to the Church : Goe , say with your Patriarch that wee erect Religions by Proclamations , Browne Reform . without . tarrying . and Parliaments .

Vpon these premises I dare conclude , and doubt not to maintaine against all Separatists in the world that England ( to goe no higher ) had in the daies of King Henry the eight , a true visible Church of God , and so by consequent their succeeding seede was by true Baptisme iustly admitted into the bosome therof , and therefore that euen of them without any further profession , Gods Church was truly constituted : If you shall say that the following Idolatrie of some of them in Queene Maries daies excluded them : Consider how hard it will be to prooue that Gods couenant with any people , is presently disanulled by the sinnes of the most , whether of ignorance , or weakenesse ; and if they had herein renounced GOD , yet that GOD also mutually renounced them . To shut vppe your Constitution then : There is no remedy : Eyther you must goe forward to Anabaptisme , M. Smith ag. R. Clifton . or come backe to vs : All your Rabbines ca●not aunswere that charge of your rebaptized brother : If wee bee a true Church , you must returne , If wee bee not ( as a false Church is no Church of GOD ) you must rebaptise : If our Baptisme be good , Principl . & I●fer . pag. 11. then is our constitution good . Thus your owne Principles teach . The outward parte of the true visible Church is a Vowe , Promise , Oathe or Couenant betwixt GOD and the Saints : Now I aske , Is this made by vs in Baptisme , or noe ? If it be , then we haue ( by your Confession ( for so much as is outwardly required ) a true visible Church : so your separation is vniust : If it be not , then you must rebaptise : for the first Baptisme is a nullity : and ( if ours be not ) you were neuer thereby as yet entred into any visible Church .

SECTION . XIII . The Apostacie of the Church of England .

I professed to bestow pitie and sorrow vpon you and your wrong : Separ . Your pitying of vs , and sorrowing for vs , especially for the wrong , done by vs , were in you commendable affections , if by vs iustly occasio●ed ; but if your Church bee deepelye drencht in Apostacie , and you crie Peace Peace , when suddaine and certaine desolation is at hand , it is you that do wrong , though you make the complaint : and so being cruell towards your selues , & your owne , whome you flatter : you cannot be truely pitifull towards others whom you bewaile . You entertaine both harshly , and with a churlish repulse : What should a man do with such dispositions ? Let him stroke them on the backe , they snarle at him ; and show their teeth : Let him shew them a Cudgell , they flie in his face : You allow not our actions , and returne our wrong ; Ours is both the iniurie and complaint : How can this be ? You are the agents , we sit still , and suffer in this rent : Yet ( since the cause makes the Schisme ) let vs inquire , not whose the action is , but whose the desert : Our Church is deepe drencht in Apostacie ; and wee crie Peace , Peace : No lesse then a whole Church at once , & that not sprinkled , or wetshod , but drencht in Apostacie ? What , did we fall off from you , or you from vs ? Tell me , were we euer the true Church of God ? And were we then yours ? We cannot fall vnlesse we once stood : Was your Church before this Apostacie ? Show vs your ancestours in opinion : Name me but one that euer taught as you doe ; and I vow to separate : Was it not ? Then we fell not from you : Euery Apostacie of a Church must needs be from the true Church ; A true Church , and not yours ? And yet can there be but one true ; See now whether in branding vs with Apostasie , you haue not proued yours to be no true Church : A Treatise of the Ministery of England , against M. H pag. 125. Still I am ignorant : Queene Maries dayes ( you say ) had a true Church , which separated from Poperie , chose them Ministers , serued God holily , from thence was our Apostacie : But , were not the same also ( for the most part ) Christians in King EDWARDS dayes ? Did they then , in that confused allowance of the Gospel , separate ? Or ( I pray you ) were Cranmer , Latimer , Ridley , Hooper and the rest , parts of that Church , or no ? Was there any other ordination of Ministers then from them ? Reiect these , and all the world will hisse at you ; Receiue them , and where is our Apostacie ? What Antichristianisme haue we , whereof these were freed ? But you leape backe ( if I vrge you farre ) from hence to the Apostles times , to fe●ch our once true Church from farre , that it might bee deare : You shall not carue for vs : we like not these bold ouer-leapes of so many Centuries : I speake boldly , you dare not stand to the trial of any Church , since theirs : Now , I heare your Doctor say this Challenge sauors of Rome : Antiquitie is with you , a Popish plea : H. Amsworth in his fore-speech to his Count. We haue willingly taken vp our aduersaries , at this ( by pretence , their owne ) weapon : You debarre it in the conscience of your owne nouell singularitie : Yet your Pastor can be content to make vse of Tertullian alone against all Fathers ; That such things are iustly to be charged with vanitie , Inqu . into Wh. Tertul. l. de Orat as are done without any precept either of the Lord or of the Apostles : Tert. l. de praescript . And , the Apostles did faithfully deliuer to the nations the Discipline they receiued of Christ , So de Virginib , Veland . That no contin●ance of time can prejudice T●uth . which we must beleeue to be the tumultuary Discipline of the refined house-full at Amster dam : What ? all in all ages , and places till now Apostates ? Say if you can , that those famous Churches , wherein Cyprian , Athanasius , Ambrose , Hierome , Austen , Chrysostome , Sime reprehendas errantem , patere me quae so errare cum talibus , Aug. Hi●r . and the rest of those blessed lights liued , were lesse deepe in this Apostacy then ours ? O Apostaticall Fathers , that separated not ! yea , say if you dare , that other reformed Churches are not ouer the Ankles with vs in this Apostacy ? What hard newes is this to vs , when as , your Oracle dare say not much lesse , of the Reformed Churches of Netherlands , with whom you liue ? Thus he writes : For not hearing of them in other Congregations in these countries ; this I answer , That seeing by the mercie of God , Fr. Iohnsonin his An●w . to T. Wh p. 26. we haue seene and forsaken the corruptions yet remayning in the publique Ministration , and condition of these Churches ( if they be all like to these of this Citie ) , we cannot therfore partake with them , in such case , without declining and Apostasie from the truth , which we haue our selues already receiued , and professed . See here , to partake with them in Gods seruice is Apostacy ; Aunsw ag. Broughton , p. 17 These Dutch Ch. offend not only in practicall disorders , but in their Constitution , Gouerament w●●sh p , &c. If so in the accessoryes , Alas , what crime is in the principall ? It were but Apostasie to heare an English Sermon ; a Dutch is no lesse : Woe is you that you dwell still in Meshech : Good men ; it were not more happy for you then the Church , that you were well in heauen . No lesse then Apostasie ? Let no Reader bee appalled at so fearefull a word , this is one of the tearmes of Arte familiar to this way : Find but any one page of a Duch printed volume without Apostasie , Excommunication , Commingling , Constitution , and suspect it not theirs : Heresie is not more frequent at Rome , then Apostacy at Amsterdam , nor Indulgences more ordinary there , then here Excommunications . Common vse makes terrible thinges easie : Their owne Master Sl. for holding with the Dutch Baptisme , and read-prayers is acknowledged to be cast our for an Apostate : Troubl . and Excom. at Amsterd . p. 10. yea their Doctor Mr. A●nsworth is noted with this marke from themselues : there is much latitude ( as happy is ) in their Apostasie : For when Stanshall Mercer and Iacob Iohnson were to be chosen Officers in their Church , Brown charged with it by Barr. Letter . to M. Egert . and exception was taken by some at their Apostacy , answere was made , It was not such Apostacy as debarred them from office , it was but aslippe . ● . Iohnson ibid. p. 194. Iohn Marke ( whether , as Isychius and Theophilact think , the blessed Euangelist , or some other holy Minister ) is by the whole Parlour at Amsterdam , branded with this same Apostasie ; who departed indeed , but from Paul in his iourney , not from Christ in his faith , Fr. Iohnson Inq. and therefore his ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) is expounded by ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) Act. 15. 38. why do we think much to drinke of an Euangelists cuppe ? Act. 15. 38. Departing . ● . not going with them Yet let this ignorant Epistler teach his censorious answerer one point of his owne ( that is the Separatists ) skill : and tell him that hee obiects two crimes to one poore Church , which are incompatible ; want of Constitution and Apostasie . Thus writes your Master of vs : If it were admitted ( which can neuer bee proued ) that they sometimes had beene true established Churches . Barr. Pres. to the Separation d●fend . In his obseruations p. 251. We doe not there condemne the parish Assemblies as separated from Christ , but tr●ue them not as yet gathered to Christ . So Conser . ●●th Sperin . p. 9. Fr. Iohnson . Inquir . pag. 36. Loe here , we neuer had true Constitution , therefore we are not capable of Apostasie : If we once had it , and so were true Churches , heare , what your Pastor saith : As Christ giueth to all true Churches their being , so wee must leaue it vnto him to take it away , when , and as he pleaseth . And therefore since he hath not remoued his Candlesticke , H. Bar. Obseruat . 242. nor taken away his Kingdome , No faults disanull the being of a Church , vntill contempt of Gods word be added thereunto after due conuiction ▪ The faults & errors of a Church may be seuerely reproued and conuinced according to the quality thereof , and yet the Church not be condemned . N. B. Iob. ●4 . 19. in spight of all obiected Apostasies , we still continue so : and by consequent your separation vpon this ground is most vniust . An Apostate had wont to bee the fearefull surname of damned Iulian : Tortus was an easie accusar , to whom yet , we may say with Elihu , Num dicis regi , Apostata ? Behold now so many Apostates as men : Holy Cyprian describes him by forsaking Christs colors , & taking vp arms for Gentilisme in life , or herefie in iudgment : And Augustine telles vs , there cannot bee a greater sinne then Apostasie ; making else-where this sinner , worse then the Infidell And the olde vulgar can giue no worse tearme to ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) where he findes it , yea to ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) rebels themselues . What doth this brand to a Church , Vulg. edit. C●pr . Epi ad Cornel. Non est maius pechcaatum quam Apostat are a Deo . Aug. in Ps. 18. not Christian onely ( though you denie it ) but famous : Of whom is truely verefied ( after all your splene ) that which the spirit writes to the Angel of Ephesus : Laborasti & non Defecisti : Say if you can , what Article of the Christian , and Apostolike faith haue we renounced ? What heresie maintaine wee ? Prou. 6. 12. Iob 34. 18. Ezec 2. 3. Apocal. 2. 3 , Thou hast laboured , and not giuen in . Wherein haue wee runne from the tents of Christ ? What hold we that may not stand with life in Christ , and saluation ? We challenge all men and Diuels in this point , for our innocence : Distinguish , for starke shame of so foule a word ; or ( which is better ) eate it whole ; and let not this blemish be left vpon your soule and name in the Records of God , Tert●l . de Pat , Si hominibus Pla●●t●r , Dominus offenditur , sivero illud entimur & laboramus vt 〈◊〉 dco piacere , & 〈◊〉 & maledicta debemus humana contemnere . and the world ; that you once said of a Church too good for yours , Drencht in apostacy . If we crie Peace , whiles you crie Apostasie ; surely we flatter , whiles you rayle : betwixt these two dangerous extremes , wee know an wholsome meane , confessed by M. Ioh●s . loc. seq. so to approue that we foster not security : so to censure , that we neither reuile , nor separate : and in one word , to doe that which your Pastor could exhort the separators from your Separation ( for euen this Schisme hath Schismes ) If we should mislike , yet to rest in our differences of iudgement , Inq. of Th. White p. 65. and notwithstanding peaceably to continue with the Church : Had you taken this course , you should neither haue needed to expect our pitie , nor to complaine of our cruelty . Surely , whether our loue be cruell , or not , your hatred is , whereof , take heede least you heare from old Iacob , Gen 49. 7. Cursed be their wrath for it was fierce , and their rage for it was cruell .

How can you expect compassion , Sep. when you breath fire , But I will not discourage you in this affection , least we find few in the same fault : the most in stead of pitty and compassion , affoording vs nothing but fury and indignation . Cypr. de s●●●plic . prael . Quid facit in corde Christiano luporum seritas & canum rabies ? August . Confess . l. 9. c. 9. Qual●a solet eructare turgens indigesta discordia ? and write gall ? Neuer mention the fury of others indignation , till the venemous and desperate writings of Barrow and Greenwood bee evther worne out with time , or by the Thunder-bolts of your ( not rare ) censures be strucke downe to hell , whence their maliciousnesse came . I forbeare to recapitulate , how much rather had I helpe to burie , then to reuiue such vn-christian exprobrations ?

SECTION . XIIII . The Separatists acknowledgements of the graces of the Church of England .

INgratitude and vnnaturalnesse to your Mother is obiected , Se● . In that you flie from her , The first action laid against vs , is of vnnaturalnes and ingratitude towards our mother the Church of England , for our causelesse separation from her : to which vniust accusation , and triuiall querimony , our most iust defence hath beene , and is , that to our knowledge we haue done her no wrong : we do freely , and with all thankfulnesse acknowledge euery good thing she hath and which our selues haue there receiued . yea now ( wo is me ) that you spit in her face , and mark her for an harlot : Would God the accusation were as farre from being iust , as from being triuiall : Yet perhappes you intend it not in the lightnesse of this charge , but the commonnesse : you haue caused me to smart for my charity , yet I forbeare it not : What is your defence ? That you haue done her no wrong , to your knowledge . Modestly spoken , but doubtfully : we know your wrong , but we know not your knowledge : it is well if your wrong be not wilful : an ignorant wrong is both in more hope of amends , and of mercie : But is not this caution added , rather for that you thinke no hard measure can possibly be a wrong to so vile a Church ? I aske , and would be denied : No , you doe freely , and with all thankefulnesse acknowledge euery good thing she hath : Whatsoeuer you doe to vs , I will not any more in fauour of you , wilfully wrong my selfe : you haue bidden men now to take you as a complete Separatist : and speake this for your selfe and yours . Let the Reader now iudge , whether the wrong of your Sect be wilful ; and acknowledgment of our good , free and thankfull . Your first false-named Martyr shall giue the first witnes of the titles of our Church : H. Barr. Praef. to the separ . defended , Who ( saith he ) that were not drunke and intoxicate with the Whores cuppe ; could affirme this confuse Babell , these cages of vncleane Birds , Causes of separ . def. p. 12. Confer . with D. Andr. these prisons of foule and hatefull spirits , to be the Spouse of Christ ? And else-where , he calles the people of our Church Goates and Swine . Is this any wrong to your knowledge ? The same Author : They haue not ( saith he ) in their Churches any one thing in their practise and proceedings , not one pin , naile , Praef. to separ . def. or hooke according to the true patterne : Doe you not now freely and thankefully acknowledge our Churches good things ? What is more ordinary with him , and his brother in euill I. Greenewood , then to call our worthie Ministers Baals Priests , Gyff . refuted touch Donat. Obseruat . of M. H. Bar. p. 239. Cainites , the marked seruants of Antichrist , sellers of the Whores wares , worshippers of the Beast . Is this yet any wrong to your knowledge ? Pastor Iohnson sticks not to say , that the Ministerie and worshippe of the Church of England were taken out of the Whores cuppe : Fr. Iohns . Reas. 9 , ag. M. Iac. p. 74. and plainely stiles our Church ( as which of you doe not ? ) daughter of the great Babilon , that mother of whoredomes and abhominations of the earth : Iohns . ag. M. Iac. Except . 3. Nota Bene. yet more ; That Hierarchy , Worshippe , Constitution and Gouernement , which they professe and practise , being directly Antichristian , doe vtterly destroy true Christianity , so as their people and Churches , cannot in that estate be iudged true Christians : Do you not now freely and thankfully acknowledge our good things ? What can any Diuell of hell say worse against vs then this , That we are no Christians ? Or what good can there be in vs , if no true Christianity ? Ibid. If wee denied euery Article of the Christian Creed : if we were Mahumetans ( as your good Pastor stickes not to compare vs ) , if the most damned Heretiques vnder heauen , what could he say but no Christians ? Your teacher and Pastour ( which is a wonder ) agree : For your Doctor Ainsworth makes this one head of his poysonous Counterpoyson , Counterpoys . pag. 127. & 131. that Christ is not the head , Mediatour , Prophet , Priest , King of the Church of England : You , their Disciple are not yet promoted to this height of immodestie ; yet what are your good things ? Euen to you , we are Apostates , Traytors , Rebels , Babylonish : This is well for a learner : Hereafter ( if you will heare me ) keepe our good things to your selfe , and report our euill .

Yea , that your vncharitablenesse may bee aboue all examples , monstrous ; You doe not onely denie vs any interest in the Church of Christ , but exclude vs ( what you may ) from all hope and possibilitie of attaining the honour of Christendome : For when a godly Minister protested to Master Barrow , the trueth of his ministerie ; vpon the approbation also of his people , hee receiued this answere from him : Barr. Confer . With M. Sperm as Bar hims hath written it . pag. 9 Though you had such allowance , it could nothing auaile , but rather ouerthrow your Ministerie ; they being as yet vngathered to Christ , and therefore neither may not in this estate chuse them a Minister , nor any exercise a Ministerie vnto them , without hainous sacriledge , O desperate iudgement ; we neither are Christians , nor can be : No Christianitie without faith , no faith without the Ministerie of the word , no word to vs without sacriledge : What are we , Fr. Iob. 7. Reas. aga . Iac p. 64. G. Iohns . Praef. to the Pastor . that the very offer of bringing vs to God should be criminall ? These are your acknowledgements of our good : Who haue learned of your Pastour to kisse and kill all at once : to blesse and curse with one breath : your mercies are cruell .

SECTION . XV. The vnnaturalnesse of some principall Separatists .

BVT who can wonder at your vnnaturalnesse to the Church , Russin . l. 2. Eccl. hist. c , 3. that heares what measure you mete to your owne ? Errour is commonly ioyned with cruelty : Aug. Epist. & Possid . in vita Aug. The outragious demeanures of the Circumcelliones in Augustines time ; and more then barbarous tyranny of the Arrians before him are wel knowen by all Histories , Euseb hist. eccl. Damnis grauissimis & caedibus afficiebant , armati diuersis telis . and not enough by any : God forbid , that I should compare you to these . Heare rather of Nouatus , the father of a not-vnlike Sect , of whom Cyprian reports , Socrates l. 2. c. 22. & 30. that he would neither bestow bread on his father aliue , nor buriall on him deade , but suffred him both to starue and stinke in the street : Cypr. l. 2. Ep. 8. Nouati pater in vico fame mortuns nec postea ab illo sepultus . Sic Optat. l. 1. Purpurus Donatista occidit sororis filios &c. G. Iohns . Discourse of troubles and Excommunications at Amsterdam printed 1603 and for his wife ( least he should be mercifull to any ) hee spurned her with his heele , and slew his owne childe in her bodie : What need I seeke so far ? I grieue to thinke and report , that your owne Pastor hath paralleled this cruelty : His owne brother ( which is no lesse sauadge ) though one of your Sect , is the publick accuser and condemner of him in this crime to all the world : who after a pittifull relation of his eight yeares quarrels with him , and foure years excommunication , in his Epistle before a large volume to this purpose , writes thus : Ibid. p. 5.

After all these , hath not our kind , carefull , and old Father come a long iourney to make Peace ? Hath he not laboured with you , the Elders and the Church , to bring you to peace ? Hath hee not vsed the helpe and counsell of the Reformed Churches herein ? Yet will you not be reclaimed , but adding that sinne aboue all , haue also ●●●strously excommunicated your father , the peace-seeker , &c. and straight ; How oft desired he you ( as if he had beene the sonne , and you the father ) euen with teares , that you would repent . In a word , how came he and I to your doore , shewing you that it might bee ( vpon his departing ) you should see his face no more , &c. Yet you forced him by your ill dealing , still to leaue vpon you , his curse , and all the curses writen in Gods booke against vnthankfull and disobedient children . Thus farre a brother concerning a brother , against father and brother ; Other strangely-vnkind vsages of both , I had rather leaue to the discouery of Master White , and this miserable plaintiue , Discouery of Brownisme . Vid. G. Iohns . booke . who haue written enough to make an enemy ashamed : But whereupon was all this fearefull broile in a pure Church ? For nothing but a little lace , and whale-bone in his wiues sleeue . The Troian warre could not be slaundered with so weighty a beginning . Inq. into Th. Wh. Discou . As for your Elder , Daniel Studly ( whom your Pastor so much extolleth ) if Master Whites Apostasie may be your shift against his relation ; let him speake who should haue beene a fellow-elder with him , banished for your trueth , though erected by your censure : Same Epist. p. 15 Marke ( saith G. Iohns . of this Studly ) how the Lord hath iudged him with vnnaturalnesse to his owne children , suffering them to lie at other mens feete , and hang on other mens hands , They say Fi●●a ●ponsae . whiles he , his wife , and her daughter fared daintily , and went prankingly in apparell , euen in this place of banishment . It is no ioy to me to blazen these , Mihi accusatio etiam vera contra fratrem displ●cet Hieron . aduersus Ruffin . or your othersins ; would God they were fewer , and lesse in vs all . Onely it was fit the world should know , as how vndutiful you are to your common parent , so that Father , Brother , Children beare part with your mother in these your cruelties .

SECTION . XVI . what the Separatists thinke themselues beholden to the Church of England for .

IF then such bee the good things of our Church ; What good can you acknowledge to haue receiued from her ? Bar. exam. before the Archb. and L. Anderson Browne state of Christians d. 39 Qui non habet quod det , quomodo det ? vox Donat. Opta . l. 1 Nothing giues what it hath not : A Baptisme perhaps ; Alas , but no true Sacrament , you say : yea the seale of gracelesnesse and mischiefe ; As little are you beholden to the Church for that , as the Church to you , for your good acceptation : Why are you not rebaptized ? You that cannot abide a false Church , why doe you content your selues with a false Sacrament ? especially , since our Church , being not yet gathered to Christ is no Church , and therefore her baptisme a nullity . Barrow . supra .

What else doe you owe to the liberality of this Step-dame ? You are close ; your Pastor is lauish for you both ; who thus speakes of himselfe , and you , and vs : Fr. ●●hns . ag. M. I●cob p. 41. 〈◊〉 . 2. I confesse that whiles I was Minister in your Church of England , I stood in an Antichristian estate , yet doubt I not , but euen then , being of the Elect of God I was partaker through faith , of the mercy of God in Christ to saluation , but as for you ( Master Iacob and his fellow-Christians ) whiles you thus remaine , you cannot in that estate approue your selues to haue the promise of saluation . Behold here , the Church of England gaue you but an Antichristian estate ; if God giue secret mercy , what is that to her ?

Gods superabundant grace dooth neither abate ought of her Antichristianisme , Sep. nor moue you to follow him in couering , The superabundant grace of God couering and passing by the manifolde enormiti●s in that Church wherewith these good things are inseparably commingled , and wherein we also through ignorance and infirmity were inwrapp ed. and passing by the manifold enormities in our Church , wherewith those good things are inseparably commingled : Your owne mouth shall condemne you : Doth God passe ouer our enormites , and doe you stick , yea separate ? Doth his grace couer them , and do you display them ? Haue you learned to be more iust then your Maker ? Or if you be not aboue his iustice , Why are you against his mercie ? God hath not disclaimed vs by your owne confession ; you haue preuented him . If Princes leisures may not be stayed in reforming , yet shall not Gods in reiecting ? Your ignorance inwrapped you in our errours : his infinite wisedome sees them , and yet his infinite mercie forbeares them : so might you at once haue seene , disliked , stayed : If you did not herein goe contrary to the courses of our common God , how happy should both sides haue beene ? yea how should there be no sides ? How should wee be more inseparably commingled , then our good and euill ?

But should you haue continued still in sinne that grace might haue abounded ? Sep. God forbid : But what then ? should we still haue continued in sinne , that grace might haue abounded ? If God haue caused a further truth like a light in a darke place , to shine in our hearts , should wee still haue mingled that light with darkenesse , contrary to the Lords owne practise ? Ge. 1. 4. and expresse precept , 2. Cor. 6. 14. you might haue continued here without sinne ( saue your owne ) and then grace would no lesse haue abounded to you , then now your sinne abounds in not continuing : What neede you to surfet of another mans Trencher ? Others sinnes neede no more to infect you , then your graces can sanctifie them . As for your further light , suspect it not of God : suspect it to be meere darkenesse : and if the light in you be darknesse , Gen. 1. 2. how great is that darkenesse ? What ? so true and glorious a light of God , and neuer seene til now ? No worlds , times , Churches , Patriarches , Prophets , Apostles , Es. 5. 20. Woe to them that put darknesse for light . Martyrs , Fathers , Doctors , Christians euer saw this truth looke foorth besides you , vntill you ? Externall light was Gods first creature , and shall this spirituall light , Es. 59. 9. whereby all Churches should be discerned come thus late ? Mistrust therefore your eyes , and your light : and feare Isayes woe , and the Iewes miserable disappointment : we wait for light , but loe it is darkenesse , for brightnesse , but we walke in obscuritie .

SECTION . XVII . The Motherhood of the Church of England , how farre it obligeth vs .

THE Church of England is your mother , to her small comfort ; she hath borne you , and repented . Alas , you haue giuen her cause to powre out Iobs curses vpon your birth-day , by your not onely forsaking but cursing her : Stand not vpon her faults , which you shall neuer proue capitall : Deu. 21. 22 ▪ 23. Note only the best Parent might haue brought forth a rebellious sonne to be stoned . What then ? Sep. Doe we preferre duetie to piety , But the Church of England ( say you ) is our Mother , and so ought not to be auoided ▪ But say I , we must not so cleaue to holy mother Church , as we neglect our heauenly father , and his commandements , which we know in that estate we could not but transgresse , and that heynously , and against our consciences , not onely in the want of many Christian Ordinances , to which we are most straightly bound , both by Gods word and our owne necessities . and so plead for our holy mother Church , that we neglect our heauenly Father , yea offend him ? See what you say : It must needes be an holy mother that cannot be pleased without the displeasure of God : A good wife , that opposes such an husband : a good sonne that vpbraides this vniustly : Therfore is she a Church , your mother , holy , because she bred you to God , cleaues to him , obeyes his commaundements , and commaunds them . And so farre is shee from this desperate contradiction , that she voweth not to hold you for her sonne , vnlesse you honour God as a father . It is a wilful slaunder , that you could not but heynously transgresse vnder her : I dare take it vpon my soule , that all your transgression which you should necessarily haue incurred by her obedience , is nothing so heynous , as your vnchariblenesse in your censures and disobedience . Conscience is a common plea euen to those you hate : we inquire not how strong it is , but how well informed : not whether it suggest this , but whereuppon . To goe against the conscience is sinne , to follow a mis-informed conscience is sinne also : If you do not the first , we know you are faulty in the second : He that is greater then the conscience will not take this for an excuse : But wherein should haue beene this transgression : Mater Ecclesia , mater est etiam matris nostrae . so vnauoidable , heynous , against conscience ? First in the want of many Ordinances , to which we are most strictly bound , Aug. Ep. 38. both by Gods word , and our owne necessities .

SECTION . XVIII . The want of pretended Ordinances of God , whether sinfull to vs : and whether they are to be set vp without Princes .

CAn you thinke this hangs well together ? You should here want many of Gods ordinances : why should you want them ? Because you are not suffered to inioy them : who hinders it ? Superior powers : Did euer man willfully and heynously offend , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . for wanting of that which he could not haue ? What hath conscience to doe with that which is out of our power ? Is necessity with you become a sinne , and that haynous ? Dauid is driuen to lurke in the wildernesse , and forced to want the vse of many diuine Ordinances : Nemo per exteriorem violentiam corrumpitur : si interior innocentia custodiatur . c. ● . q. 3. Custodi . &c. It was his sorrow , not his transgression , He complaines of this , but doth he accuse himselfe of sinne ? Not to desire them had beene sinne , no sin to be debat'd them : Well might this be Sauls sin but not his . Haue you not sinnes enow of your owne , that you must needes borrow of others ? But I see your ground : You are bound to haue these Ordinances ; and therefore without Princes , yea against them : so it is your transgression to want them in spight of Magistrates , Ad docendum populum Israeliticum , omnipotens deus prophetis praeconium dedi ▪ , non regibus imperauit . Aug. l. 2. contr. Gau. c. 11. Barr. causes of scpera , def. p. 6. Gaudentius the Donatist taught you this of old ; And this is one of the Hebrew songs which Master B●rrow sings to vs in Babylon , that we care not to make Christ attend vpon Princes , and to be subiect to their lawes , and gouernment : and his Predecessor ( the roote of your sect ) tels vs in this sense the kingdome of heauen must suffer violence ; and that it comes not with obseruation ; that men may say , Brow . Reform : without tarrying . Loe the Parliament or loe the Bishops decrees : and in the same treatise . The Lords kingdome must wait on your policy , Aug. contr. Petilia n. l. 2. forsooth ; and his Church must be framed to your ciuill state &c. Iust as that Donatist of old , Optatus Mileuit . lib. 3● in Augustine , Quid vobis &c. What haue you to doe with worldly Emperours ? and as that other in Optatus : Quid Imperatori cum Ecclesia ? What hath the Emperour to doe with the Church ? Yea your Martyr feares not to teach vs , Barr. 2. Exa●●i● nation before the L. Archb. and L. Chiefe-Iustice . compar . with his reply to M. Gyff . Art. 5. that Gods seruants being as yet priuate men , may and must together build his Church , though all the Princes of the world should prohibit the same vpon paine of death : Belike then you should sin haynously , if you should not be rebels : The question is not , whether we shold aske leaue of Princes to be Christians ; but whether of Christian Princes wee should aske leaue to establish circumstances of gouernment : God must be serued , thogh we suffer ; our blood is wel bestowed vpon our maker , but in patience , not in violence . Priuate profession is one thing ; Publique reformation & iniunction is another ; Euery man must doe that in the maine : none may doe this , but they of whom God saies , I haue said , ye are Gods : and of them : There is difference betwixt Christian and Heathen Princes : If ( at least ) al Princes were not to you Heathen : If these should haue beene altogether stayed for , Religion had come late : If the other should not be stayed for : Religion would soone be ouer layd with confusion : Lastly , the body of Religion is one thing , the skyrts of outward gouernment another : that may not depend on men to be imbraced , or ( with loyalty ) prosecuted : these ( vpon those generall rules Christ ) both may , ● Sam. 24. 6. and doe , and must : If you cut off but one lappe of these with Dauid , you shall be touched : To denie this power to Gods Deputies on earth , what is it , Num. 16. 3. but ye take too much vpon you Mo●es and Aaron , all the Congregation is holy : wherefore lift ye your selues aboue the Congregation of the Lord ? See , if herein you come not too neere the walles of that Rome which ye so abhorre and accurse , Counter poys . p. 230. in ascribing such power to the Church , 2. Chr. 13. none to Princes . Let your Doctor tell you , 2. Chr. 14. & 15 . whether the best Israelites in the times of Abijah , 2. Chr. 29. Asa , Iehosaphat , Ezekiah , Iosiah , tooke vpon them to reforme without , 2. Chr. 30. or before , 2. Chr. 34. or against their Princes ? Yea did Nehemiah himselfe without Artahshaht ( though an heathen King ) set vpon the walles of Gods City ? Or what did Zerubbabel , and Ieshua without Cyrus ? Ezr. 2. & 3. 2. In whose time Haggai and Zechariah prophesied indeede , but built not : And when contrary Letters came from aboue , they laid by both Trowels and Swords : They would bee Iewes still , they would not be rebels for God : Ezr. 4. 23. 24 . Had those Letters inioyned Swines flesh , or Idolatry , or forbidden the vse of the law , those which now yeelded , had suffered , and at once testified their obedience to authority , and piety to him that sittes in the assembly of these earthen Gods . I vrge no more : Perhaps you are more wise or lesse mutinous : you might easily therefore purge your conscience from this sinne , of wanting what you might not perforce enioy .

Say that your Church should imploy you backe to this our Babylon , for the calling out of more Proselites : you are intercepted , imprisoned : Shall it bee sinne in you not to heare the Prophesies at Amsterdam ? The Clinke is a lawfull excuse : If your feete be bound , your conscience is not bound . In these negatiues , outward force takes away both sinne and blame , and alters them from the patient to the actor : so that now you see your straight bonds ( if they were such ) loosed by obedience , and ouer-ruling power .

SECTION . XIX . The bonds of Gods word vniustly pleaded by the Separ .

BVT what bonds were these straight ones ? Gods word and your owne necessity : Both strong and indissoluble where God hath bidden , God forbid that we should care for the forbiddance of men : I reuerence from my soule ( so doth our Church their deare Sister ) those worthy forraine Churches which haue chosen and followed those formes of outward gouernment that are euery way fittest for their owne condition . It is enough for your Sect , to censure them : I touch nothing common to them with you : a a August . Ep. 58 ▪ Pastores autem & doctores qu●s maxime vt discernerem voluisti eosdem puto esse sicut & tibi visum est , vt non alios Pastores , alios Doctores intelligeremus , sed ideo cum praedixisset Pastores , subiunxisse Doctores , vt intelligerent Pastores ad officium suum pertinere doctrinam Barr. ag. Gyff . inueighs for this cause against the Consistory of Gene●a . Fr ▪ Iohns . complaints of the Dutch and Fr. Churches . Discription of a visible Church , cannot make a Distinct. in the Definition of their Offices . While the world standeth , where will it euer be shewed out of the sacred booke of God , that hee hath charged . Let there be perpetuall Lay-Elders in euery Congregation : Let euery Assembly haue a Pastor and Doctor , distinct in their charge and offices : Let all decisions , excommunications , ordinations be performed by the whole multitude : Let priuate Christians ( aboue the first turne , in extremity ) agree to set ouer themselues a Pastor , chosen from amongst them and receiue him with prayer , State of Christians 119. and ( vnlesse that ceremony be turned to pompe and superstition ) by imposition of hands . Descript. of vis . Ch. H. Clap. Epist before his treatise of sinne ag: : the holy Ghost . Brownists fourth Position . Let there be Widdowers ( which you call relieuers ) appointed euery where to the Church-seruice Let certaine discreete and able men which are not Ministers be appointed to preach the Gospell and whole truth of God to the people .

All the learned Diuines of other Churches are in these left , yea in the most of them censured by you : Hath God spoken these things to you alone ? Pleade not Reuelations , and wee feare you not : Pardon so homely an example : As soone and by the same illumination shal G. Iohns . proue to your Consistory the lace of the Pastors wiues sleeue , Trouble and ●xcom . at Amsterdam . or rings , or Whale-bones , or other amongst you ( as your Pastor confesseth ) knit stockings , or Cork-shooes forbidden flatly by Scriptures , Fr. Iohns . in a Letter to M. Smith . as these commanded . We see the letter of the Scriptures with you : you shall fetch blood of them with strayning , ere you shal wring out this sense : No , no ▪ ( M. R. ) neuer make God your stale : Many of your ordinances came from no ●ier then your own braine : Others of them though God acknowledges yet he imposed not : Pretend what you will : These are but the cords of your owne conceit , not bonds of Christian obedience .

SECTION . XX. The necessity of their pretended Ordinances .

THE first of these then is easily vntwisted : your second is necessity : Then which , what can bee stronger ? what law , or what remedy is against necessity ? What we must haue , we cannot want : Oppose but the publique necessitie to yours : your necessity of hauing , to the publique necessity of withholding : and let one of these necessities ( like two nailes ) driue out another : So they haue done , and your owne necessity ( as the stronger ) hath preuailed ; for that other necessity might bee eluded by flight : you haue sought and found else-where , what the necessity of our lawes denied , and the necessity of your conscience required . Nulla necessitas maior est charitate . H●eron . Beware lest vniustly : Sinne is as strong bond to a good heart as impossibility ; Christians can not doe what they ought not : Apol. ad Ruff. Contrary to the lawes of your Prince and Countrie , you haue fledde not onely from vs , but from our Communion . Either is disobedience no sinne , or might you do this euil that good may come of it ? But what necessity is this ? simple and absolute , or conditional ? Is there no remedy but you must needes haue such Elders , Fr. Iun. de Eccl. Sed accidunt persaepe tempora quibus aut noua Ecclesia generatur , aut altera pars interumpitur ( scilicet 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) et tamen Ecclesia esse non d●sinit , formà nimirum essentiali adhuc permanente . Pastors , Doctors , Relieuers , such Offices , such executions ? Can there be no Church , no Christians without them ? What shall we say of the families of the Patriarkes , of the Iewish Congregations vnder the law , yea of Christ and his Apostles ? Either denie them to haue beene visible Churches , or shew vs your distinct Offices amongst them : But as yet ( you say ) they were not : Therefore God hath had a true Church ( thousands of yeares ) without them : Therefore they are not of the essence of the Church : You call me to the times since Christ : I demand then , was there not a worthy Church of God in Hierusalem from the time of Christs Ascension , till the election of the seauen Deacons . Those hundred and twentie Disciples , Act. 1. 15. and three thousand Conuerts , Act. 2. 41. Those continuall Troupes that flocked to the Apostles , were they no true Church ? Let the Apostles and Euangelists bee Pastors and Doctors : Act 7. beg . Cypr. l. 3. Ep. 9. Meminisse diaconi debent quoniam Apostolos ( id est ) Episcopos & praepositos Dominus elegit , Diaconos autem post ascensum Domini in caelos Apostoli sibi constituerunt Episcopatus su & Ecclesiae ministros . where were their Elders , Deacons , Relieuers ? Afterwards , when Deacons were ordained , yet what news is there of Elders , till Act. 11 ? yet that of Hierusalem was more forward then the rest : We will not ( as you are wont ) argue from scriptures negatiuely : no proofe yet much probability is in Saint Paules silence : Hee writes to Rome , Corinth , and other Churches : those his Diuine letters in a sweet Christian ciuility salute euen Ordinary Christians : And would hee haue vtterly passed by all mention of these Church-Officers amongst his so precise acknowledgment of lesser titles in others , Rom. 1. 8. if they had beene ere this ordained ? yet all these more then true Churches , 1. Cor. 1. 5. famous some of them , rich , forward , and exemplary . 1. Thess. 1. 7. Onely the Philippian Church is stiled with Bishops and Deacons , but no Elders besides them . Gal ▪ 4. 15. The Churches of Christ since these , Phil. 1. 2. ( if at least you will graunt that Christ had any Church till now ) haue continued in a recorded succession through many hundreds of yeares : Search the Monuments of her Histories : Shew vs where euer in particular Congregations all these your necessary Offices ( as you describe them ) were either found or required . It was therefore a new-no-Necessity that bound you to this course , or ( if you had rather ) a Necessity of Fallibility : If with these God may be well serued , he may be well serued without them . This is not that Vnum necessarium that Christ commends in Mary : you might haue sate still with lesse trouble , and more thanks .

SECTION . XXII . The Church of England , is the Spouse of Christ .

SHE may be your Mother ( you say ) and not the Lords Wife . Sep. It is a good Mother that hath Children and no husband : She is our Mother ▪ o may she be , and yet not the Lords wife , euery mother of children is not a wife . Ammi and Ruhae●ah were bidden to plead with their mother Apostate Israel , & plead that she was not the Lords wife , nor he her husband . Ho. 2. 1. 2. Cypr. de simpli● . Praelator , Adulterari non potest sponsa Christi , incorrupta est & Pudica . 1. Kin. 12. 29. Hos. 2. 16. 2. 13. Why did you not call her plaine whore ? Your old Embleme is , As is the Mother , so is the Daughter . These are the modest circumlocutions of a good sonne ; who cares not to proue himselfe a bastard , that his mother may bee mark't for an Harlot : Be you a true Lo-ammi , but England shall neuer ( I hope ) proue an Apostate Israel : We haue no Calues in our Dan and Bethel none of Iero●oams Idolatry : Wee haue still called God Ishi , and neuer burnt incense to Baalim : It is your sinagogue that hath fallen away from vs , as Israel from Iuda : But these children were bidden to plead : Gods command shields them from the note of vngracious . Abraham must sacrifice his sonne and this sonne must condemne his Mother ; shew vs either our equall desert , or your equall warrant . Where hath God proclamed our Church not his ? By whose hand hath he published her diuorce ? Sep. You haue shamed her wombe , And though you forbid vs a thousand times , yet must we plead : not to exccuse our fault , but to iustify our innocency : And that not only nor so much in respect of our selues , as of the truth which without sacriledge we may not suffer to be condemned vnheard . And if you yet heare her not , rather blame yourselues as deafe , then vs as dumb . Hierom. ad Eustoch . Epitaph Paulae ex Psal 67. not she her bed , not God her demeanure .

Your tongues are your owne , who can forbid you ? We know you will plead and excuse , and censure , and defend , till all the world be weary : we may pray with Hierome to this sense that of the Psalmist Increpa Domine bestias calami : yet wee see your pens , tongues , and presses , busie and violent . I will not apply to you that which Augustine of his Donatists . August . contr. Epist. Parmen. li. 1. Though truth compell you to be dumbe , yet iniquitie will not suffer you to be silent . But if you write whole Marts and worlds of volumes , you shall neuer be able either to iustifie your innocence , or excuse your fault : In the meane time the noyse of your contentions is so great that your truth cannot bee heard : Learned Iunius , and our learnedst Diuines , and neighbour Churches , Epistol. Iuni. ad Separ . haue oft heard your clamors , neuer your truth : So little haue you of this and so much of the other , that we are ready to wish ( as he of old ) either our selues deafe or you dumb .

SECTION . XXIII . How the Church of England , hath separated from Babylon .

THe spirit of your Proto-Martyr would hardly haue digested this Title of Babylon , Giff. refut. 2. transg . Mother of Gods people ; Sep. a murdering Step-mother , Is not babylon the mother of Gods people , whom he therefore commandeth to depart out of her , least being partakers of her sinnes , they also partake of her plagues . Reuel. 18. 2. Answ. for● speach to Counter poys . rather : She cannot be a Mother of Chil●ren to God , and no Church of God : Notwithstanding , Gods people ( would he say ) may be in her , not of her . So Babylon bore them not , but Sion in Babylon , But I feare not your excesse of charity : You fly to your Doctors challenge ; and aske what we say against you for vs , which Rome wil not say for her selfe against vs : Will you iustifie this plea of Rome , or not ? If you will ; why doe you reuile her ? If you will not : why doe you obiect it ?

Heare then what we say both to you and them , Sep. our enemies both : And to conclude , what say you more against vs , for your mother the Church of England , then the Papists do for their mother and your mothers mother , the Church of Rome , against you , whom they condemn as vn-naturall bastards and impious Patricides in your separations from her , A Simone Zelota Niceph. Alij a Ios. Arimath , cuius hic sepulchrum cernitur . Angli Pascha Graeco more celebrarunt . Iacob Armin. Disp Cant. 8. 8. Fr. Iun. lib ▪ sing . de Eccle. and yet the enemies of our enemies : First we disclaime , and defie your Pedigree and theirs . The Church of Rome was neuer our Mothers Mother : Our Christian faith came not from the seuen-hilles : Neither was deriued either from Augustine the Monke , or Pope Gregory . Britanny had a worthy Church before either of them look't into the world : It is true that the ancient Roman Church was Sister to ours : here was neare kindred , no dependance : And not more consanguinitie , then ( while she continued faithfull ) Christian loue : Now she is gone a whoring , her chast Sister iustly spitteth at her : yet euen still ( if you distinguish , as your learned Antagonist hath taught you , betwixt the Church and Papacy ) Shee acknowledges her Sisterhood , though she refraines her conuersation : as she hath many slauish and factious abettors of her knowne and grosse errors ( to whom we deny this title ) affirming them the body whereof Antichrist is the head , the great whore , and mother of abhominations ; so againe how many thousands hath shee , which retayning the foundation according to their knowledge , ( as our learned Whitakers had wont to say of Bernard ) follow Absolom with a simple heart : all which to reiect from Gods Church , were no better than presumptuous cruelty . It were well for you before God & the world , if you could as easiely wash your hands of vn-naturall impiety , and trecherousnesse , as we of bastardy & vniust sequestration . There can be no bastardy , where was neuer any motherhood , wee were nephews to that Church , neuer sons : vnlesse as Rome was the Mother citie of the world , so by humane institution , we suffered our selues to bee ranged vnder her Patriarchall authority , as being the most famous Church of the West : a matter of courtesie , and pretended Order ; no necessity , no spirituall obligation . As for our sequestration , your mouth and theirs may be stopt with this answer : As all corrupted Churches , so some things the Church of Rome still holds aright ; a true God in three persons , true Scriptures , though with addition , a true Christ , though mangled with foule and erroneous consequences ; true Baptisme though shamefully deformed with rotten traditions ; & many other vndenyable truths of God : some other things ( and too many ) her wicked Apostasie hath deuised and maintained abhominably amisse ; the body of her Antichristianisme , grosse errours , and ( by iust sequel ) heresies ; their Popes supremacy , infallibility , illimitation , transubstantiation , idolatrous and superstitious worshippe , and a thousand other of this branne : In regard of all these latter , we professe to the world a iust and auncient separation from this false faith and deuotion of the Romish Church ; which neither you will say , nor they shall euer proue , faulty : yea rather they haue in all these separated from vs , who stil irrefragably professe to hold with the auncient , from whom they are departed . In regard of the other we are stil with them , holding and embracing with them what they holde with Christ : neither will you ( I thinke ) euer prooue that in these we should differ : As for our communion , they haue separated vs by their proude and foolish excommunications : if they had not , wee would iustly haue begunne : from their Tyranny and Antichristianisme , from their miserable Idolatrie : but as for the bodie of their poore seduced Christians , which remaine amongst them vpon the true foundation ( as doubtlesse there are thousands of them which laugh at their Pardons , Miracles , Superstitions and their trust in merites , reposing only vpon Christ ) we adhere to them in loue and pitty , and haue testified our affection by our blood , ready vpon any iust call to doe it more ; neither would feare to ioyne with them in any true seruice of our common God : But the full discourse of this point , Phil. Morn du Plesses . Lib. de Eccles. cap. 10. that honourable and learned plesses hath so forstalled , that whatsoeuer 〈◊〉 say , would seeme but borrowed . Vnto his rich Treatise I referre my Reader , for full satisfaction : Would God this point were throughly known , and well weighed on all partes . The neglect or ignorance whereof hath both bred and nursed your separation , and driuen the weake and inconsiderate into strange extremities .

This say we for our selues in no more charity then truth : But for you ; how dare you make this shamelesse Comparison ? Can your heart suffer your tong to say , that there is no more diffrence betwixt Rome and vs , then there is betwixt vs and you ? How many hundred errours , how many damnable heresies haue we euinced with you , in that ( so compounded ) Church ? shew vs but one mis-opinion in our Church that you can proue within the ken of the foundation ? Let not zeale make you impudent : Counterp . p. 171. Your Doctor could say ( ingenuously sure ) that in the doctrines which she professeth , she is farr better and purer then that Whore mother of Rome , and your last Martyr yet better : 1. P●nry . Exam. before M. Fanshaw & Iust. Yong. If you mean ( saith he ) by a Church ( as the most doe ) that publique profession whereby men do professe saluation to be had by the death and righteousnesse of Iesus Christ , I am free from denying any Church of Christ to be in this land : for I know the Doctrine touching the holy Trinity , the natures and Offices of the Lord Iesus , free iustification by him ; both the Sacraments , &c. published by her Maiesties authority , and commanded by her lawes , to be the Lords blessed and vndoubted truthes , without the knowledge and profession whereof no saluation is to be had : Thus he with some honesty , though little sense . If therfore your will do not stand in your light , you may well see , why we should thus forsake their Communion , Fr. Iun. l. de Eccles. M. Hooker Eccles. pol. Du Plesses . l. de Eccl Iacob . Armin. disput. D. Reynolds Thes. D. Feild of the Ch. Reuel . 3. & 2. and yet not you ours . Yet though their corruptions be incomparably more , wee haue not dared to separate so farre from them , as you haue done from vs for lesse : Still wee holde them euen a visible Church , but vnsound , sicke , dying ; sicke not of a consumption onely , but of a leprosie or plague ( so is the Papacy to the Church ) diseases , not more deadly then infectious . If they be not rather in Sardies taking ; of whom the spirit of God saieth , Thou hast a name that thou liuest , but thou art dead ; and yet in the next words bidds them awake , and strengthen the things which are ready to die . And though our iudgement and practise haue forsaken their erroneous doctrines and seruice , yet our charity ( if you take that former distinction ) hath not vtterly forsaken and condemned their persons . This is not our coolenesse , but equality : your reprobation of vs for them , hath not more zeale then headstrong vncharitablenesse .

SECTION . XXV . What separation England hath made .

THE Church of England dooth not now wash her hands of Babilonish abhominations , Sep. but rather shewes they are cleane . But here in the name of the Church of England , you wash your hands of all Babylonish abominations , which you pretend you haue forsaken , and her for , and with them . And in this regard you speake thus : The Reformation you haue made of the many and maine corruptions of the Romish Ch. we do ingenuously acknowledge , and de● withall imbrace with you all the truths which to our knowledge you haue receiued in stead of them ▪ But Rome was not built all in a day . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Hierom. Apol. aduers. Ruffi . 1. l. 1. ●tissa est mihi ●audatio tua , id est accusatio mea . Bonum ex integra natura , malum ex singulari defectu . Would God they were no more foule with your slander then her owne Antichristianisme . Here will bee found not pretences but proofes of our forsaking Babylon ; of your forsaking vs , not so much as wel-coloured pretences : You beginne to be ingenuous ; while you confesse a reformation in the Church of England : not of some corruptions , but many , and those many not sleight , but maine .

The gifts of aduersaries are thankelesse : As Ierom said of his Ruffinus , so may we of you , that you wrong vs with praises : This is no more praise then your next page giues to Antichrist himselfe . Leaue out Many , and though your commendations be more vncertaine , we shall accept it : so your indefinite proposition shall sound to vs as generall ▪ That we haue reformed the maine corruptions of the Romish Church : None therefore remaine vpon vs ; but sleight and superficiall blemishes , so you haue forsaken a Church of a foule skinne , but of a sound heart , for want of beauty , not of truth .

But you say many , not All , that if you can picke a quarrell with one , you might reiect all : yet shewe vs that one maine and substantiall error , which we haue not reformed : and you doe not more embrace those truths with vs which we haue receiued , then we will condemne that falshood which you haue reiected : and imbrace the truth of that Separation which you haue practised .

The degrees whereby that strumpet of Babylon got on Horse-back you haue learned of vs , Sep. who haue both learned and taught , The mistery of iniquity did aduance it selfe by degrees , and as the rise was , so must the fall be . That man of sinne , and lawlesse man , must languish and die away of a consumption . 2. Thes. 2 8. And what though manie of the highest Towers of Babel , and of the strongest Pillers also be demolished , & pulled down , yet may the building stand still , though tottering to and fro ( as it doth ) and only vnderpropped and vpheld with the shoulder and arme of flesh , without which in a very moment it would fall flat vpon , and lie leuell with the earth . that as Christ came not abruptly into the world , but with many presages and prefigurations ( The day was long dawning ere this Sunne arose ) . so his aduersary ( that Antichrist ) breaks not suddenly vpon the Church , but comes with much preparation , and long expectance : and as his rise , so his fall must be graduall , and leisurely : Why say you then , that the whole Church euery where must at once vtterly fall off from that Church where that man of sinne sitteth ? His fall depends on the fall of others , or rather their rising from vnder him : If neither of these must be sudden , why is your hast ? But this must not be , yet ought : as there must be heresies , yet there ought not : It is one thing what God hath secretly decreede , another what must be desired of vs : If we could pull that Harlot from her seate , and put her to Iezebels death , it were happy : Haue we not endeuoured it ? What speake you of the hyest Towers , and strongest pillers , or tottering remainders of Babylon : we shew you all her roofes bare , her walles raced , her vaults diged vp , her monuments defaced , her altars sacrificed to desolation : Shortly al her buildings demolished , not a stone vpon a stone saue in rude heapes , to tell that here once was Babylon : Your strife goes about to build againe that her tower of confusion . God deuides your languages : It wil be wel , if yet you build not more then we haue reserued .

SECTION . XXVI . The maine grounds of separation .

YOV will now be free both in your profession and gift , Bar. & Gr. ag. Giff. Confer . & Eam . passim , Pe●●y in his exa . You giue vs to haue renounced many false Doctrins in Popery : and to haue imbraced so many truths : We take it vntill more : Sep. You professe where you sticke , You haue renounced many false Doctrines in Popery , and in theire plac●s embraced the truth . what you mislike : In those foure famous heades , which you haue learned by heart from all your predecessors : An hatefull Prelacy , A deuised Ministery , a confused and prophane communion , and lastly the intermixture of grieuous errors .

What if this truth were taught vnder an hatefull Prelacy ? Exod. 1. 2. 3. &c. Ier. 20. 1. Suppose it were so ? Must I not imbrace the truth because I hate the Prelacy ? Ier. 5. vlt. But what if this truth bee taught vnder the same hatefull Prelacy , in the same deuised office of Ministery : and confused communion of the prophane multitude , and that mingled with many greeuous errors . What if Israel liue vnder the hatefull Egyptians ? What if Ieremy liue vnder hatefull Pashur ? What if the Iewes liue vnder an hateful Priesthood ? What if the disciples liue vnder hatefull Scribes ? What are others persons to my profession . If I may be freely allowed to be a true professed Christian , what care I vnder whose hands ? But why is our Prelacy hatefull ? Actiuely to you , or passiuely from you ? In that it hates you ? Would God you were not more your owne enemies : Or rather because you hate it ? Your hatred is neither any newes , nor paine : Who or what of ours is not hatefull to you ? Our Churches , Belles , Clothes , Sacraments , Preachings , Prayers , Singings , Catechismes , Courts , Meetings , Burialles , Mariages : It is maruell that our aire infects not : and that our heauen and earth ( as Optatus said of the Donatists ) escape your hatred : Not the forwardest of our Preachers ( as you tearme them ) haue found any other entertainment ; Iohns . Pres. to his 7. Reas. no enemy could be more spightfull , I speake it to your shame . Rome it selfe in diuers controuersary discourses hath bewrayed lesse gall , then Amsterdam : The better they are to others , Iohns . 7. Reas. p. 66. you professe they are the worse : yea would to God that of Paule were not verified of you : Tit. 3. 4. hatefull , and hating one another : But we haue learned , that of wise Christians not the measure of hatred should be respected , Psal. 69. 4. but the desert : Dauid is hatred for no cause , : Michaiah for a good cause : Your causes shall be examined in their places : onwards it were happy if you hated your owne sinnes more , and peace lesse : our prelacy would trouble you lesse , and you the Church .

SECTION . XXVII . The truth and warrant of the Ministery of England .

FOr our deuised office of Ministery , you haue giuen it a true title . Mat 28. 19. It was deuised indeed by our Sauiour when he said , Eph. 4. 11. go teach all Nations and Baptise ; and performed in continuance when hee gaue some to be Pastors and Teachers ; 2 Tim. 2. 2. and not only the office of Ministery in generall , 1 , Tim. 3. 1. but ours whom hee hath made both able to teach , Act. 13. and desirous , seperated vs for this cause to the worke , 1. Tim. 3. 9. vpon due tryall admitted vs , 1. Tim. 5. 22. ordayned vs by imposition of handes of the Eldershippe , 2 Tim. 2. 15. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . and prayer , directed vs in the right diuision of the word , committed a charge to vs ; followed our Ministery with power , and blessed our labours with gratious successe , euen in the hearts of those whose tongues are thus busie to denie the truth of our vocation : Discourse of the Trouble & excem . at Amst. Certaine Arg. ag the Com. with the Minist. of England . Behold here the deuised Office of ●our Ministery : What can you deuise against this ? Your Pastor , who ( as his brother writes ) hopes to worke wonders by his Logicall skill , hath killed vs with seuen Arguments , which hee professeth the quintessence of his owne , and Penryes extractions , whereto your Doctor referres vs as absolute . I would it were not tedious or worth a Readers labour to see them scanned . Counterpoys . I protest before , God and the world , I neuer read more grosse stuffe so boldly and peremptorily faced out : so full of Tautologies and beggings of the Question neuer to bee yeelded . Let mee yet mention the maine heads of them , and for the rest be sory that I may not be endlesse .

To proue therefore that no communion may be had with the Ministery of the Church of England , he vses these seuen Demonstrations First , Because it is not that Ministery which Christ gaue , and set in his Church : Secondly , Because it is the ministerie of Antichrists Apostasie : Thirdly , Because none can communicate with the ministery of England , but he worshippes the beasts Image , and yeeldeth spirituall subiection to Antichrist : Fourthly , Because this ministery deriueth not their power and functions from Christ : Fiftly , Because they minister the holy things of God by vertue of a false spirituall calling : Sixthly , Because i● is a strange ministery , not appointed by God in his word : Seuenthly , Because it is not from heauen , but from men .

Now I beseech thee Christian Reader , iudge whether that which this man was wont so oft to obiect to his brother ( a crack't braine ) appeare not plainely in this goodly equipage of reasons , for what is al this but one , and the same thing tumbled seuen times ouer ? which yet with seuen thousand times babling shall neuer be the more probable . That our ministery was not giuen and set in the Church by Christ , but Antichristian , what is it else to be from men , to bee strange , to be a false spirituall calling , not to bee deriued from Christ , to worship the Image of the beast ? So this great Challenger that hath abridged his nine Arguments to seuen , might aswell haue abridged his seuen to one and a halfe . Here would haue beene as much substance , but lesse glory : As for his maine defence : First , wee may not either haue , or expect now in the Church that ministery which Christ set : Where are our Apostles , prophets , Euangelists ? If we must alwayes looke for the very same administration of the Church which our Sauiour left , why doe wee not challenge these extraordinary functions ? Doe we not rather thinke , since it pleased him to beginne with those Offices which should not continue , that herein he purposely intended to teach vs , that if wee haue the same heauenly busines done we should not be curious in the circumstances of the persons : But for those ordinary callings of Pastors and Doctors ( intended to perpetuity ) with what forehead can hee denie them to bee in our Church ? How many haue we that conscionably teach and feede , or rather feede by teaching ? Call them what you please , Superintendents ( that is ) Bishoppes , Prelates , Priests , Lecturers , Parsons , Vicars , &c. If they preach Christ truly , vpon true inward abilities , vpon a sufficient ( if not perfect ) outward vocation : such a one ( let all Histories witnesse ) for the substance , as hath bin euer in the Church since the Apostles times : they are Pastors and Doctors allowed by Christ : Vbires convenit quis non verba contemnat , ? August . de Ordin. 2. We stand not vpon circumstances and appendances of the fashions of ordination , manner of choyce , attire , titles , maintenance : but if for substance these be not true Pastors and Doctors Christ had neuer any in his Church , since the Apostles left the earth . All the difficulty is in our outward calling : Let the Reader graunt our graue and learned Bishoppes to be but Christians , and this will easily be euinced lawfull , euen by their rules : For , if with them euery plebeian artificer hath power to elect and ordaine by vertue of his Christian profession ( the act of the worthiest standing for all ) how can they deny this right to persons qualified ( besides common graces ) with wisedome , Brow . state of Christians . learning , experience , authority ) ? Eyther their Bishoppricke makes them no Christians ( a position which of all the world , besides this Secte , would be hissed at ) or else their handes imposed are thus farr ( by their rules of Separatists ) effectual . Now your best course is ( like to an Hare that runnes backe from whence she was started ) to flye to your first hold : No Church , therefore no Ministery : So now , not the Church hath deuised the Ministery , but the Ministery hath deuised the Church : I follow you not in that idle Circle : Thence you haue beene hunted already : But now , since I haue giuen account of ours : I pray you tell me seriously , Who deuised your Office of Ministery ? I dare say , not Christ , not his Apostles , not their Successors : What Church euer in the world can be produced ( vnlesse in case of extremity for one turn ) whose conspiring multitude made themselues ministers at pleasure ? what rule of Christ prescribes it ? What Reformed Church euer did , or doth practise it ? What example warrants it ? where haue the inferiors laid hands vpon their Superiors ? What Congregation of Christendome in all records affoorded you the necessary patterne of an vnteaching Pastor , or an vnfeeding Teacher ?

It is an old policy of the faulty to complaine first : Certainely there was neuer Popish Legend a more errand deuise of man then some parts of this ministery of yours , so much gloried in for sincere correspondence to the first institution .

SECTION . XXVIII . Confused Communion of the prophane .

YOVR scornefull exception at the confused communion of the prophane multitude sauors strong of a Pharisee , who thought it sinne to conuerse ( cum terrae filijs ) the base vulgar , Perplexae sunt istae duae ( initates in hoc seculo inuicemque permixtae donec vltimo iudicto dirimantur . and whose very Phylacteries did say , Touch me not , for I am cleaner then thou . This multitude is prophane ( you say ) and this communion confused : If some be prophane , yet not all , for then could be no confusion in the mixture : If some be not prophane , Aug. de Ciuit. d. l. 1. 33. why do you not loue them as much as you hate the other ? If all maine truthes be taught amongst some godly , some prophane : why will you more shunn those prophane , then cleaue to those truths , and those godly ? If you haue duely admonished him , and detested and bewailed his sinne ; what is another mans prophanenesse to you ? If prophanenesse be not punished , or confusion be tolerated , it is their sinne , Eze. 18. 20. Orig. whome it concerneth to redresse them : Vnusquisque propter proprium peccatum morietur , in proprid iusticiâ viuet , &c. If the Officers sinne , must we runne from the Church ? It is a famous and pregnant protestation of God by Ezechiell : The righteousnesse of the righteous shall be vpon him , and the wickednesse of the wicked shall be vpon himself . And if the fathers sower Grapes cannot hurt the childrens teeth , Fr. Iohns . Artic. ag. the Dutch & Fr. how much lesse shall the neighbours ? Answ. ag. Brough ton . But whither will you runne from this communion of the prophane ? The same fault you find with the Dutch and French ; Discouer . of Brown . yea in your owne . How well you haue auoided it in your separation , Troubles and excom. at Amst. Charact. pres . Cypr. Ep. 2. let Master White , George Iohnson , Master Smith be sufficient witnesses , whose plentifull reports of your knowne vncleannesses , Iidem in publico accusatores in occulto rei , in semetipsos censores pariter & nocentes : Damnant foris , quod intus operantur , smothered mischiefes , malitious proceedings , corrupt packings , communicating with knowne offenders , bolstering of sinns , and willing conniuences , as they are shamefull to relate , so might well haue stopt your mouth from excepting at our confused Communion of the prophane .

SECTION . XXIX . Our Errours intermingled with Truth .

HOw many and grieuous errors are mingled with our Truths shall appeare sufficiently in the sequell ; If any want , ●arr . Conser . with M. Hutchins . &c. & D. ●ndr . let it be the fault of the accuser , it is enough for the Church of Amsterdam to haue no errors . But ours are grieuous : Name them , that our shame may be equall to your griefe : Sep. So many they are , Shall some generall truth●s ( yea though few of them in the particulars may bee foundly practised ) sweeten and sanctifie the other errours ? doth not one heresie make an hereticke , and doth not a little leauen , whether in Doctrine or manners le●uen the whol lumpe ? 1. Cor. 5. 6. Gal. 5 9. Hag. 2 13. If Antichrist held not many truthes , wherewith should he countenance so many forgeries , or how could his work be a mistery of iniquitie ? which in Rome is more grosse , and palpable , but in England spun with a finer threed , and so more hardly discouered . But to wade no further in vniuersalities ; wee will take a little time to examine such particulars , as you your selfe haue picked out for your most aduantage , to see whether you bee so cleare of Babels Towers in your owne euidence , as you beare the world in hand . Inquir . into M. white p. 35. Mat. 13. 33. and so grieuous that your Martyr , when he was vrged to instance , could find none but our opinion concerning Christs descent into hell ; and except hee had ouer-reached , not that . Call you our Doctrines some generall truthes ? Looke into our Confessions , Apologies , Articles , and compare them with any , with all other Churches , and if you finde a more particular , found , Christian , absolute profession of all fundamentall truths in any Church since Christ ascended into heauen , renounce vs , as you do , & we wil seperate vnto you : But these truths are not soundly practised : Let your Pastor teach you , that if errours of practise should be stood vpon , there could bee no true Church vpon earth : Pull out your owne beame first : we willingly yeeld this to be one of your truths , that no truth can sanctifie errour : That one heresie makes an Hereticke : but learne withall , that euery error doth not pollute all truthes : That there is hay and stubble which may burne , yet both the foundation stand , and the builder be saued : Such is ours at the worst , why doe you condemne where God will saue ? No Scripture is more worne with your tongus and pennes , then that of the leauen . 1. Cor. 5. 6. If you would compare Christs leauen with Pauls , you should satisfie your selfe . Christ sayes the kingdome of heauen is as leauen ; Paule saies grosse sin is leauen : Both leauens the whole lumpe : neither may be taken precisely , but in resemblance : not of equalitie , ( as he said well ) but of qualitie : For notwithstanding the leauen of the kingdome , M. Bredwell . some part you grant is vnsanctified ; So notwithstanding the leauen of sinne , some ( which haue striuen against it to their vtmost ) are not sowred : The leauening in both places must extend onely to whom it is intended : the subiects of regeneration in the one ; the partners of sinne in the other : So our Sauiour saith , Yee are the salt of the earth ; Yet too much of the earth is vnseasoned : The trueth of the effect must bee regarded in these speeches not the quantity : It was enough for Saint Paule to shew them by this similitude , Hierom. In hoc Ignoratis , quia malo exemplo possunt plurimi interire ? Sed & per vnius delictum in omne populum Indaeorum iram dei legimus adue nisse . that grosse sins where they are tollerated haue a power to infect others : whether it be ( as Hierome interprets it ) by ill example , or by procurement of iudgements : and thereupon the incestuous must be cast out : All this tends to the excommunicating of the euill , not to the seperating of the good : Did euer Paule say , if the incestuous be not cast out , seperate from the Church . Show vs this , and wee are yours : Else it is a shame for you that you are not ours : If Antichrist holde many truths , and we but many , we must needes bee proud of your prayses : We holde all his truths , and haue showed you , how we hate all his forgeries , no lesse then you hate vs : Yet the mistery of iniquity is still spun in the Church of England ; but with a siner threed : So fine that the very eyes of your malice cannot see it , yet none of our least motes haue escaped you : Thankes bee to our good God , wee haue the great mistery of godlinesse so fairely and happily spunne amongst vs , 1. Tim. 3. 16. as all , but you , blesse God with vs , and for vs : As soone shall you finde charity and peace in your English Church , as heresie in our Church of England .

SECTION . XXX . Whether our Prelacy be Antichristian .

TO the particular instances : Sep. I aske where are the proud towers of their Vniuersall Hierarchy : Where ( say you ) are those proud towers of their Vniuersall Hierarchie ? You answere roundly : One in Lambeth , another in Fulham , &c. What Vniuersall ? Did euer any of our Prelates challenge all the world as his Diocesse ? Is this simplicitie , One in Lambeth , another in Fulham , and wheresoeuer a pontificall : Prelate is , or his Chauncellor , Commissary , or other subordinate , there is a Tower of Babel vnruinated . To this end I desire to know of you whether the office of Arch-bishoppes , Bishoppes , and the rest of that ranke , were not parts of that accursed Hierarchie in queene Maries dayes , and members of that man of sinne ? If they were then as shoulders and armes vnder that head the Pope , and ouer the inferiour members ; and haue now the same Ecclesiasticall Iurisdiction deriued and continued vpon them , wherof they were possessed in the time of Popery ( as it is plaine they haue by the first Parliament of queene Elizabeth ) Why are they not still members of that body , though the head the Pope be cut off ? 7. Arg. 1. Answ. Counterpoys . or malice ? If your Pastor tell vs that as well a world as a Prouince , Let me returne it ; If he may be Pastor ouer a Parlour full : Why not of a Citie : And if of a Citie , why not of a Nation ? But these you will proue vnruinated Towers of that Babell : You aske therefore whether the office of Archbishops , Bishops , and the rest of that ranke , were not in Queene Maries daies , partes of that accursed Hierarchy , and members of that man of sin . Doubtlesse they were : Who can deny it ? But now ( say you ) they haue the same Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction continued : This is your miserable Sophistry : Those Popish Arch-bishoppes , and Bishoppes and Clergie were members of Antichrist ; not as Church-Gouernours , but as Popish : While they swore subiection to him , while they defended him , whiles they worshipt him aboue all that is called God , and extorted this homage from others , how could they be other but limmes of that man of sinne : shall others therefore which defie him , resist , trample vpon him , spend their liues and labours in oppugnation of him be necessarily in the same case , because in the same roome ? Let me helpe your Anabaptists with a sound Argument : The Princes , Peeres and Magistrates of the land in Queene Maries dayes were shoulders and armes of Antichrist ; their calling is still the same ; therefore now they are such : Your Master Smith vppon no other ground disclaimeth Infants Baptisme , crying out that this is the maine relique of Antichristianisme . Character of the beast ag. R. Clifton . But see how like a wise Master you confute your selfe : They are still members of the bodie , though the head ( the Pope ) bee cutte off : The head is Antichrist , therefore the body without the head is no part of Antichrist : Hee that is without the head Christ , is no member of Christ ; so contrarily : I heare you say , the very Iurisdiction and office is here Antichristian , not the abuse : What ? in them , and not in al Bishops since , and in the Apostles times ? Alas , who are you that you should oppose al Churches & times ? ignorance of Church-story , & not distinguishing betwixt substances and appendances , personall abuses , and callings , hath ledde you to this errour : Yet since you haue reckoned vp so many Popes , let me helpe you with more : Was there not one in Lambeth when Doctor Cranmer was there ? One in Fulham when Ridly was there : Arch-deacon . One in Worcester when Latimer was there ? One at Winchester when Philpot was there ? We will goe higher ; Was not Hilarius at Arles , Beatissimus Papa passi●n in Epist. Paulinus at Nola. Primasius at Vtica , Eucherius at Lyons , Cyrill at Alexandria , Chrysostome at Constantinople , Ignat. ad Trallian . Euseb. l. 3. Augustine at Hippo , Ambrose at Milaine ? What should I be infinite ? Was not Cyprian at Carthage ? Euodius and after him Ignatius in S. Iohns time at Antioch , Polycarpus at Smyrna , Philip at Cesarea , Iames and Simeon and Cleophas at Hierusalem , Ex Euseb. Hier. Catalog script . Epiph. ●nio , &c. Cal. Instit l. 4. Hieron . Euagrio Heming . Potest . Eccles. clas. 3. c. 10. and ( by much consent of Antiquity ) Titus in Creet , Timothy at Ephesus , Marke at Alexandria : yea to be short , was there not euery where in all ages , an allowed superiority of Church-Gouernours vnder this title ? Looke into the frequent Subscriptions of all Councels , and their Canons ? Looke into the Registers of all times , Hinc Ecclesia purior secuta tempora Apostolorum , fecit alios Patriarchas , quorum erat curare vt Episcupi cuiusque d●ocescos rite eligerentur , vt suum munus Episcopi singuli probe administrarent &c. Arist. Pol. 7. Potentia diuitiarum , & pauper tatis humilitas vel humiliorem vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit . and finde your selfe aunswered : Let reuerend Caluin be our Aduocate : I would desire no other words to confute you , but his : He shall tell you that euen in the Primitiue Church , the Presbiters chose one out of their number in euery City , whom they titled their Bishop , least dissention should arise from equality . Let Hemingius teach you that this was the practise of the purest Church : Thus it was euer , and if Princes haue pleased to annexe either large maintenances , or stiles of higher dignity , and respect vnto these , doe their additions annihilate them ? Hath their double honour made voide their callings ? Why more then extreme needinesse ? If Aristotle would not allow a Priest to be a tradesman , yet Paul could yeeld to homely Tent-making , if your Elders grow rich or noble , Hieron . Euagr. doe they cease to bee , or beginne to be vnlawfull ? But in how many volumes hath this point beene fully discussed ? I list not to gleane after their full Carts .

SECTION . XXXI . The iudgement and practise of other Reformed Churches .

FRom your owne Verdict you descend to the testimonies of all reformed Churches : I blush to see so wilfull a slaunder fall from the penne of a Christian . Sep. That all Reformed Churches renounce our Prelacy as Antichristian , And so do all the Reformed Churches in the world ( of whose testimony you boast so loud ) renounce the Prelacy of England , as part of that Pseudo-Clergie , and Antichristian Hierarchie deriued from Rome . Answ. Counterpoys . 3 Consid. Ps. 10. 7. what one hath done it ? Yea , what one forraine Diuine of note , hath not giuen to our Clergy the right hand of fellowshippe ? so farre is it from this , that I. Alasco was the allowed Bishoppe of our first Reformed strangers in this land , so farre that when your Doctor found himselfe vrged ( by M. Spr. ) with a cloud of witnesses for our Church and ministery , as Bucer , Martyr , Fagius , Alasco , Caluin , Beza , Bullinger , Gualter , Simler , Zanchius , Iunius , Rollocus , and others , he had nothing to say for himselfe , but Though you come against vs with Horse-men and Chariots , yet wee will remember the name of the Lord our God , and turnes it off with the accusation of a Popish plea , and reference to the practise of the Reformed : And if therefore they haue so renounced it , because their practise receiues it not : Why like a true make-bate doe you not say , that our Churches haue so renounced their Gouernement ? These sisters haue learned to differ , and yet to loue , and reuerence each other : and in these cases to enioy their owne formes , without prescription of necessity , or censure . Let reuerend Beza bee the Trumpet of all the rest ; who tells you that the Reformed English Churches continue , Bez. de ministr. Euang. c. 18. Cited also by D. Down p. 29. Heming . Iudicat caeteros ministros suis Episcopis obtem perare debere . Potest . Eccles. c. 10. vpheld by the authority of Bishops , & Archbishopps , that they haue had men of that ranke , both famous martyrs , and worthy Pastors and Doctors : and lastly congratulates this blessing to our Church : or let Hemingius tell you the iudgement of the Danish Church : Iudicat caeteros ministros &c. it iudgeth saith he , that other ministers should obey their Bishoppes in all things , which make to the edification of the Church , &c. But what doe I oppose any to his name-lesse , All ? his owne silence confutes him enough in my silence .

SECTION . XXXII . Our Synodes determination of things indifferent .

THere was neuer a more idle and beggerly cauill then your next : your Christian Reader must needs thinke you hard driuen for quarrels , Article . 21 when you are faine to fetch the Popes infallibility out of our Synode , Sep. whose flat decree it was of old : That euen general Councels may erre , Infallibility of iudgement . It seemes the sacred ( so called ) Synode , assumeth little lesse vnto her selfe in her determinations : otherwise , how durst she decree so absolutely as she doth touching things reputed indifferent , viz. that all men in all places must submit vnto them without exception , or limitation . Except she could infallibly determine , that these her ceremonies thus absolutely imposed , should edifie all men at all times , how durst she thus impose them ? To exact obedience in and vnto them , whether they offend or offend not , whether they edifie or destroy , were intollerable presumption . & haue erred : But wherin doth our sacred Synod assume this infallibility , in her determinations ? Wherefore is a Synode , if not to determine ? But , of thinges reputed indifferent ? What else are subiect to the constitutions of men ? Good and euill are either directly , or by necessarie sequell ordered by God : these are aboue humane power . What haue men to doe , if not with things indifferent ? All necessary thinges are determined by God indifferent by men from God , which are as so many particulars , extracts from the generals of God : These things ( saith learned Caluin ) are indifferent , and in the power of the Church : Obligatio fine coercione nalla . Reg. Iur. Either you must allow the Church this , or nothing . But these decrees are absolute , what lawes can be without a commaund ? Non iura dicenda sunt , &c. de Ciuitat . l. 19. Answ. to the Admon . p. 279. cited also by D. Sparkes . p. 14. The law that ties not , is no law : No more then that ( saith Austen ) which tyes vs to euill . But for all men , and all times ? How for all ? For none ( I hope ) but our owne , And why not for them ? but without exception , and limitation : Do not thus wrong our Church : Our late Archbishopp ( if it were not piacular for you to reade ought of his ) could haue taught you in his publique writings , these fiue limitations of inioyned ceremonies : First , that they be not against the word of God : Aug. Ep. 86. Secondly , that iustification or remission of sinnes be not attributed to them : In his enim rebus , de quibus nih●● certi statuit scriptura diuina , mos populi Dei vel instituta maiorum pro lege tenenda sunt . Thirdly , That the Church bee not troubled with their multitude : Fourthly , that they be not decreede as necessary , and not to be changed : And lastly , that men be not so tyed to them , but that by occasion they may be omitted so it be without offence and contempt , you see our limits : Li●ius Decad. 4. l. 4. but your feare is in this last , contrary to his . He stands vpon offence in omitting , you in vsing : As if it were a iust offence to displease a beholder , Nulla lex satis commoda omnibus est , id ▪ modo quaeritur , si maiori parti & in summa prodest . no offence to displease and violate authority : What law could euer be made to offend none ? Wise Cato might haue taught you this , in Liuie , that no lawe can bee commodious to all : Those lippes which preserue knowledge , must impart so much of it to their hearers , as to preuent their offence : Neither must Law-giuers , euer fore-see what constructions will bee of their laws , but what ought to be : Those thin●● which your consistory imposes , may you keepe them if you list ? Is not the willing neglect of your owne Parlor-decrees punished with excommunication ? And now what is all this to infallibilitie ? The sacred Synod determines these indifferent rites for decency and comlinesse to be vsed of those , whom it concernes , therefore it arrogates to it selfe infallibilitie : A conclusion fit for a separatist .

You stumble at the title of sacred : euery straw lies in your way ; your Calepine could haue taught you ●hat houses , Castles , religious businesses , olde age it selfe , Cum consedissent sancti & religiosi Episcopi . Bin. Tom. 1. p. 239. Sancta Synod . Carthagi . 4. sub Anastasio . 553. Sancta & Pacifica Synod Antiocben . 1. p. 420. haue this stile giuen them : And Virgill ( vittasque resoluit , sacrati capitis ) no Epithete is more ordinary to Councelles and Synods : The reason whereof may be fetched from that inscription of the Elibertine Synode ; of those nineteene Bishops is said : When the holy and religious Bishops were set : How fewe Councels haue not had this Title ? To omit the late ; The holy Synod of Carthage , vnder Anastasius : Sancta dei & Apostolica Synodus 413. The holy and peaceable Synode at Antioch : The holy Synode of God and Apostolicall , Peruenit ad sanctam synodum can . Nic. 18. 309. at Rome vnder Iulius . The holy and great Sinode at Nice : And not to be endlesse : The holy Synod of Laodicea ( though but prouinciall ) . What doe these Idle exceptions argue but want of greater ? Sancta synod . La●dicena . 288.

SECTION . XXXIII . Sinnes sold in our Courts .

SOme great men when they haue done ill , outface their shame with enacting Lawes to make their sinnes lawfull . Sep. While you thus charge our practise , you bewray your owne : Dispensations with the lawes of God and sins of men . Who hauing seperated from Gods Church , To let passe your Ecclesiasticall consistories wherein sins and absolutions from them , are as venall and saleable as at Rome . Is it not a law of the Eternall God , that the Ministers of the Gospell , the Bishops or Elders should be apt and able to teach ? 1. Tim 3 ▪ 2. Tit. 1. 9. and is it not their greeuous sin to be vnapt hereunto . Esa 56. 10 11. And. yet who know-not that the Patrons amongst you present , that the Bishops institute , the Archdeacons induct , the Churces recei●e and the Lawes both Ciuill and Ecclesiasticall allow and iustify Ministers vnapt and v●able to teach . G. Ioh. Trou . and Exco . at Amste . Insufficiency & 〈◊〉 reside●cy of Ministers . deuise slaunders to colour your sinne : Wee must bee shamefull , that you may bee innocent : You load our Ecclesiasticall consistories with a shameles reproach : Farre bee it from vs to iustifie any mans personall sinnes ; yet it is safer sinning to the better part : Fie on these odious comparisons : sinnes as saleable as at Rome ? who knowes not that , to be the Mart of all the world ? Periuries , murders , treasons are there bought & sold : when euer in ours ? The Popes Cofers can easily confute you alone : What tell you vs of these , let me tell you : Mony is as fit an aduocate in a consistory , as fauour or malice : These , some of yours haue complained of , as bitterly , as you of ours . As if we liked the abuses in Courts : as if corrupt executions of wholesome lawes must be imputed to the Church , whose wrongs they are . No lesse haynous , nor more true is that which followeth . True Elders ( not yours ) should bee indeede 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : This we call for , as vehemently ( not so tumultuously ) as your selues .

That they should feede their flockes with word and doctrine , we require more then you : That Patrons present , Insufficiency & non residency of Ministers . Bishoppes institute , Arch-deacons induct some , which are vnable , we graunt and bewaile : But that our Church-lawes iustifie them , Sep. wee denie , and you slaunder ? Is it not a law of the eternall God that the Elders should feede the flocke ouer which they are set , labouring amongst them in the word and doctrine ? Act. 20. 28. 1. Pet: 5. 1. 2. and is it not sinne to omit this duety ? For our law ( if you know not ) requires , that euery one to be admitted to the Ministery , should vnderstand the Articles of Religion , not onely as they are compendiously set downe in the Creede , but as they are at large in our booke of Articles ; neither vnderstand them onely , but be able to proue them sufficiently out of the scripture , and that not in English onely , but in Latine also : This competency would proue him ( for knowledge ) 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : If this be not performed , blame the persons , cleare the law . Profound Master Hooker telles you , that both arguments from light of nature , Can. 34. lawes , and statutes of Scripture , M. Hooker 5. b. the Canons that are taken out of ancient Synodes , Eccles. Pol. the Decrees and constitutions of sincerest times , the sentences of all Antiquity , and in a word , euery mans full consent and conscience , is against ignorance in them that haue charge and cure of soules . And in the same booke ; Did any thing more aggrauate the crime of Ieroboams Apostasie , Pag. 26. 3. then that hee chose to haue his Clergie the scumme and refuse of his whole land : Let no man spare to te●l it them , they are not faithfull towards God ; that burden wilfully his Church , with such swarmes of vnworthie creatures : Neither is it long , since a zealous and learned Sermon dedicated to our present Lord Arch-bishoppe by his owne Chaplaine , D. Down . of the office and dignity of the Mi●ist . hath no lesse taxed this abuse , whether of insufficiency , or negligence ( though with more discretion ) then can be expected from your malicious penne : Learne henceforth not to diffuse crimes to the innocent .

For the rest : Dispensations for pluralities . your Baal in our dispensations for pluralities , would thus pleade for himselfe : First hee would bidde you learne of your Doctor to distinguish of sinnes : Sep. sinnes ( saith he ) are either controuertible , or manifest : Plead not for Baall . Your dispensations for Non-residency & pluralities of Benefices , as for two , three , or more ; yea tot quot , as many as a man will hau●e or can get are so many dispensations with the lawes of God , and sinnes of men . These things are too impious to be defended , and too manifest to be denyed . Counterpoys . p. 179. if controuertible or doubtfull , men ought to bear one with anothers different iudgment ; if they doe not , &c. they sinne : such is this : if some be resolued , others doubt : and in whole volumes plead , whether conuenience , or necessity : how could your charity compare these with sinnes euicted ? Secondly , he would tell you that these dispensations are intended and directed , not against the offence of God , but the danger of humane lawes : not securing from sinne , but from losse : But , for both these points of Non-residence and insufficiency , if you sought not rather strife then satisfaction : his Maiesties speech in the Confer . at Hampton Court , might haue staied the course of your quarrelous pen : No reasonable minde , but would rest in that gratious and Royall determination . Lastly , Why looke you not to your owne Elders at home ? Dist. 34. Can. lector . euen your handfull hath not auoided this crime of Non-residency : What wonder is it , Papa potest contra Apostolum dispensare . & Caus. 25. q. 1. Can. sunt quidam . Dispensatin Euangelio &c. De concess. praebend. Tit. 8. Can. Proposuit Secundum plenitu● inem potestatis de iure possumus supra ius dispensare . & Glossa paulo insr. Papa contra Apostolum dispensat . &c. Sum. confer . p. 52. M. Whites discou . if our world of men haue not escaped ?

SECTION . XXXIIII . Our loyaltie to Princes cleared , theirs questioned .

YOV that confesse our wisedome and honesty , must now pleade for your owne : your hope is not more of vs , then our feare of you . To depose Kings and dispose Kingdomes is a proud worke : Bar. ag. Gyff . Inconst. of Brow . p. 113 you want power , but what is your will ? For excommunication it is cleare enough : While you fully holde that euery priuate man hath as much power in this censure , as the Pastor ; and that Princes must bee equally subiect with them to these their censures : Let any man now deuise , if the Brownists could haue a King , how that King could stand one day vnexcommunicated ? Or if this censure meddle onely with his soule , not with his Scepter : How more then credible is it , Ibid. that some of your assemblies in Queene Elizabeths daies concluded , Inquir . into Th. that shee was not ( euen in our sense ) supreame head of the Church , White . neither had authority to make lawes Ecclesiasticall in the Church : Sep. It is well if you wil disclaime it : Disposition of Kingdomes and Deposition of Princes . But you know your receiued position ; That no one Church is superior to other : You are wiser and I hope honester then thus to attempt , thogh that receiued maxime amongst you No ceremony , no Bishoppe ; no Bishoppe , no King ; sauors too strongly of that weed ▪ but what though you be loyall to earthly Kings and their crownes , and Kingdomes , yet if you be Traytors and rebels against the King of his Church Iesus Christ , and the scepter of his Kingdome , not suffering him y his lawes and officers to reigne ouer you , but in stead of them do stoupe to Antichrist in his offices and ordinances : shall your loyaltie towards men excuse your treasons against the Lord ? though you now crie neuer so lowd we haue no King , but Caesar , Ioh. 19. 15. yet is there an other King , one Iesus , which shall returne , and passe a heauy doome vpon the rebellious , Luc. 19. 27. These enemies which would not haue me reigne ouer them , bring them and slay them before me . No authority therefore can reuerse this Decree ; your will may doe it : yea what better then rebellion appeares in your next clause ? While you accuse our loyaltie to an earthly King , as treasonable to the King of the Church , Christ Iesus : If our loyaltie bee a sinne , where is yours ? If we be traytors in our obedience : what doe you make of him that commands it ? Whether you would haue vs each man to play the Rex , and erect a new gouernement , or whether you accuse vs as rebels to Christ in obeying the old : P. 36. God blesse King Iames from such subiects . But whose is that so vnsauorie weede ; No Bishoppe , no King ? Know you whom you accuse ? let me shew you your aduersary ; it is King Iames himselfe in his Hampton Conference : is there not now suspition in the word ? surely you had cause to feare that the King would proue no good subiect : Belike , not to Christ : What doe you else in the next , but proclaime his opposition to the King of KINGS ? or ours in not opposing his ? As if we might say with the Israelites . Es. 36. 13. O Lord our God , other Lords besides thee haue ruled vs : If we would admit each of your Elders to bee so many Kings in the Church , wee should stoope vnder Christs ordinances : Shewe vs your Commission , and let it appeare , whether we be enemies , or you vsurpers ; Alas , you both refuse the rule of his true Deputy , and set vp false ; Let this fearefull doome of Christ light where it is most due : Euen so let thine enemies perish O Lord .

SECTION . XXXVI . Kneeling at the Sacrament of the Lords Supper .

OVR Kneeling you deriue ( like a good Herald ) from the errour of Transubstantiation : but to set downe the descent of this pedigree ; will trouble you : wee doe vtterly denie it , and challenge your proofe : De Consecr. d. 2. Ego Bereng . Apol. How new a fiction Transubstantiation is , appeares out of Berengaries recantation to Pope Nicholas : Sep. The errour was then so young , it had not learned to speake ; Where ( say you ) are those rotten heapes of Transubstantiating of bread ? shew vs the same noueltie in our kneeling : Till of late men held not the bread to be God ; of old they haue held it sacred : This is the gesture of reuerence in our prayer at the receite , as Master Burgesse well interpreted it , not of Idolatrous adoration of the bread . And where , say I , learned you your deuout kneeling to or before the bread , but from that error of Transubstantiation ? Yea what lesse can it insinuate , then eyther that , or some other the like Idolatrous conceipt . If there were not something more in the bread and wine then in the water at Baptisme , or in the word read or preached , Why should such solemne kneeling be so seuerely pressed at that time , rather then vpon the other occasions : And well and truely haue your own men affirmed that it were farre lesse sinne , and appeareance of an Idolatry that is nothing so grosse , to tye men in their prayers , to kneele before a Crucifixe then before the bread and wine , and the reason followeth , for that , papists commit an Idolatry farre ▪ more grosse and odious in worshipping the bread , then in worshipping any other of their Images or Idols whatsoeuer . Apol of the Min. of Lincoln . Dioc. part. 1. pag. 66. This was most-what in the eleuation : the abolishing wherof cleares vs of this imputation : you know we hate this conceit , why doe you thus force wrongs vpon the innocent ? Neither are we alone in this vse : The Church of Bohemie allowes , and practises it : and why is this errour lesse palpable in the wafers of Geneua ? If the King should offer vs his hand to kisse , we take it vpon our kneees : how much more when the King of heauen giues vs his sonne in these pledges ? But if there were not something more then iust reuerence , why do we solemnely kneel at the Communion not at Baptisme ? Can you find no difference ? In this ( besides that there is both a more liuely and feeling signification of the thing represented ) we are the parties , but in the other , witnesses : This therefore I dare boldly say ; that if your partner M. Smith should euer ( which God forbid ) perswade you to rebaptise , your fittest gesture ( or any others at full age ) would be to receiue that Sacramentall water , kneeling : How glad you are to take all scraps , that fall from any of ours for your aduantage ? would to God this obseruation of your malitious gatherings would make all our reuerend bretheren w●ary of their censures : Surely , no idolatry can be worse then that Popish 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . The Bread , and the Crucifixe , striue for the hier place ; if we should therefore be so tyed to kneele before the bread , as they are tyed to kneele before the Crucifixe , their sentence were iust : They adore the Crucifixe , not wee the bread ; they pray to the Crucifixe , not we to the bread , they direct their deuotions ( at the best ) by the Crucifixe to their Sauiour , wee doe not so by the bread , wee kneele no more to the bread , then to the Pulpit when we ioyne our prayers with the Ministers : But our quarrell is not with them ; you that can approue their iudgments in dislike , might learne to followe them in approbation , and peaceable Communion with the Church : if there be a galled place you will be sure to light vpon that , Your charitie is good : whatsoeuer your wisedome be .

SECTION . XXXVII . Whether our Ordinary and Seruice-Booke , be made Idolles by vs .

YET more Idolatry ? Sep. And which is more , New , and strange ; Adoring of Images . such ( I dare say ) as wil neuer be found in the two first Commandements , To let passe your deuout kneeling vnto your Ordinary when you take the Oath of Canonicall obedience , or receiue absolution at his hands , which ( as the maine actions are religious ) must needes be religious adoration , what is the adoring of your truely humane ( though called Diuine ) seruice-booke in and by which you worship God , as the Papists doe by their Images ? If the Lord Iesus in his testament haue not commanded any such book , it is accursed and abhominable if you thinke he haue , shew vs the place where , that we may know it with you . or manyfest vnto vs that euer the Apostles vsed themselues or commended to the Churches after them any such seruice-booke . Was not the Lord in the Apostles time , and Apostolicke Churches purely and perfectly worshipped , when the Officers of the Church in their ministration manifested the spririt of prayer which they had receiued according to the present necessities and occasions of the Church , before the least parcell of this patchery came into the world . And might not the Lord now be also purely and perfecty worshipped though this printed Image , with the painted and carued Images , were sent backe to Rome , yea or cast to hell from whence both they and it came ? Speake in your selfe , might not the Lord be intirely worshipped with pure & holy worship , thogh none other book but the holy Scriptures were brought into the Church : If yea ( as who can deny it that knowes what the worship of God meaneth ) what then doth your seruice-booke there . The word of God is perfect and admitteth of none addition . Cursed be he that addeth to the word of the Lord , and cursed be that which is added , and so bee your great Idoll the Communion Booke , though like Nabuchadnezzars Image some parte of the matter be gold and siluer , which is also so much the more detestable by how much it is the more highly aduanced amongst you . Behold here two new Idols , Our Ordinary , and our Seruice-booke , a speaking Idoll , and a written Idoll . Calecute hath one strange Deity the diuell , Siberia many , whose people worship euery day what they see first . Rome hath many merry Saints : but Saint Ordinary , and Saint Seruice-booke , were neuer heard of till your Canonization . In earnest , doe you thinke wee make our Ordinary an Idoll ? what else ? You kneele deuoutly to him when you receiue either the Oath or absolution . This must needs be religious adoration : is there no remedie ? You haue twise kneeled to our Vice-Chauncellour , when you were admitted to your degree ; you haue oft kneeled to your parents , and Godfathers to receiue a blessing , did you make Idols of them ? the partie to be ordained kneeles vnder the hand of the presbitery : dooth hee religiously adore them ? Of olde they were wont to kisse the handes of these Bishoppes , so they did to Baal : God and our Superiours haue had euer one and the same outward gesture : Paulus . in vitae Ambros. Though here , not the Agent is so much regarded ; as the action : if your Ordinary would haue suffered you to haue done this peece of Idolatrie , you had neuer separated .

But the true God-Bell and Dragon of England is the humane-Diuine-Seruice-Booke : Let vs see what ashes or lumpes of pitch this Daniel brings : Wee worship God in and by it , as Papists doe by their Images : In deed we worship God in , and by the prayers contayned in it : Why should we not ? Tell mee why is it more idolatry for a man to worship God in , and by a praier read , or got by hart , then by a praier conceiued ? I vtter both , they are both mine , if the heart speake them both , feelingly and deuoutly , where lies the Idoll ? In a conceiued prayer , is it not possible for a mans thought to stray from his tongue ? in a prayer learned by heart , or read , is it not possible for the heart to ioyne with the tongue ? If I pray therfore in spirit , and hartely vtter my desires to God , whether in mine owne wordes , or borrowed ( and so made mine ) what is the offence ? But ( say you ) if the Lord Iesus in his Testament haue not commanded any such Booke , it is accursed , and abhominable : But say I : if the Lord Iesus hath not any where forbidden such a booke , it is not accursed nor abhominable : Shew vs the place where , that we may know it with you : Nay , but I must shew you where the Apostles vsed any such seruice-booke : shew you mee , where the Apostles baptized in a Basen : or where they receiued women to the Lords table : Passag . twixt clifton an● Smith . ( for your 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 1. Cor. II. will not serue ) shew me that the Bible was distinguish't into Chapters and verses in the Apostles time : AEgypti● vbi lautè epulati sunt , post caenam id faciunt . shewe mee that they euer celebrated the Sacrament of the Supper at any other time then euening , Socr. l. 5. 21. as your Anabaptists now doe : shew me that they vsed one prayer before their Sermons alwaies , another after , that they preached euer vpon a Text : where they preached ouer a Table : or lastly , shewe me where the Apostles vsed that prayer which you made before your last prophecy ; and a thousand such circumstances , What an idle plea is this from the Apostolike times ? And if I should tell you that Saint Peter celebrated with the Lords prayer , you will not beleeue it : Platia . initio . yet you know the Historie . But let the Reader know that your quarrell is not against the matter , but against the booke , not as they are prayers , but as stinted , or prescribed : Wherein , all the world besides your selues are Idolaters : Behold all Churches that were , or are , are partners with vs in this crime . Oh Idolatrous Geneua , and all French , Scottish , Caluin . Ep. ad Protect . Angl. Ep. 87. Danish , Dutch Churches : All which both haue their set prayers with vs , and approue them . Quod ad formulam , &c. as concerning a forme of pra●ers and rites Ecclesiastical ( saith reuerend Caluin ) : I do greatly allow that it should bee set and certaine , from which it should not bee lawfull for Pastors in their function to depart . Iudge now of the spirit of these bold controllers , that dare thus condemne all Gods Churches , through the world as Idolatrous : but since you call for Apostolike examples : did not the Apostle Paul vse one set forme of apprecations , of benedictions ? What were these but lesser prayers ? The quantitie varies not the kinde : Will you haue yet auncienter precedents ? The Priest was appointed of olde to vse a set forme vnder the law , Num. 6. 23. so the people , Deut. 26. 3. 4 , 5. &c. 15. Both of them a stinted Psalme for the Sabboth , Ps. 92. What saith your Doctor to these ? Because the Lorde ( saith he ) gaue formes of prayers and Psalmes , Answ. to the Minist. Counterp 237. therefore the Prelates may : Can we thinke that Ieroboam had so slender a reason for his Calues ? Marke ( good Reader ) the shifts of these men : This aunswerer calles for examples , and will abide no stinting of prayers , because we shew no patternes from Scripture : We do shew patternes from Scripture , and now their Doctor saith , God appointed it to them of olde , must we therefore doe it ? So , whether we bring examples or none , we are condemned : But Mast. Doctor , whom I beseech you should we follow , but God in his own seruices ? If God haue not appointed it , you crie out vpon inuentions : if God haue appointed it , 〈…〉 , we may not follow it : shew then where 〈…〉 inioyned an ordinary seruice to himselfe , that was not ceremoniall ( as this plainly is not ) : which should not be a direction for vs ? But if stinting our prayers be a fault ( for as yet you meddle not with our blasphemous Counterp 236. Collects ) it is well that the Lords prayer it selfe beareth vs company , and is no small part of our Idolatrie : Omnibus aricubus gr●gis ( id est ) Apostolis suis dedit morem orandi , dimitte nob●s &c. Aug. Ep. 89. Which , though it were giuen principally as a rule to our prayers , yet since the matter is so heauenly , a●d most wisely framed to the necessity of all Christian hearts , to denie that it may be vsed intirely in our Sauiours wordes , is no better then a fanaticall curiousnesse : yeelde one and all ; for if the matter be more diuine , yet the stint is no lesse faulty : This is not the lest part of our patcherie : except you vnrip this , the rest you cannot . But might not God be purely and perfectly worshipped without it ? Tell mee , Might not God bee purely and perfectly worshipped without Churches , without houses , without garments , yea without handes or feete ? In a word , could not God bee purely worshipped , if you were not ? Yet would you not seeme a superfluous creature : speake in your selfe : Might not God be intirely worshipped with pure and holy worship , though there were no other bookes in the world , but the Scripture ? If yea , as who can denie it , that knowes what the worshippe of God meaneth ? What then doe the Fathers and Doctors , and learned Interpreters ? To the fire with all those curious artes and volumes , as your Predecessors called them : Yea let me put you in minde , that God was purely and perfectly worshipped by the Apostolicke Church before euer 〈…〉 Testament was written : See therefore the idlenesse of your proofes ; God may be serued without a prescription of prayer , but ( if all Reformed Churches in Christendome erre not ) better with it : The word of God is perfect , and admits no addition : Cursed were we , if we should add ought to it : Cursed were that which should be added : But cursed be they that take ought from it , and dare say , ye shall not pray thus , OVR FATHER , &c. Doe we offer to make our prayers Canonicall , do we obtrude them as parts of Gods word ? Why cauill you thus ? Why doth the same prayer written adde to the worde , which spoken addeth not ? Because conceiued prayer is commanded , not the other : But first , not your particular prayer : Secondly , without mention either of conception , or memorie , God commaunds vs to pray in spirit , and with the heart : These circumstances onely as they are deduced from his Generals , so are ours : But whence soeuer it please you to fetch our Booke of publique Prayer , from Rome or Hell ; or to what Image soeuer you please to resemble it : Let moderate spirits heare what the pretious Iewell of England saith of it : Wee haue come as neere as we could to the Church of the Apostles , Apolog. p. 170. Accessimus &c. &c. neither onely haue we framed our doctrine , but also our Sacraments , and the forme of publique prayers according to their Rites and Institutions . H Bar. ag. Gyff . Let no Iewe now obiect Swines-flesh to vs : Hee is no iudicious man ( that I may omit the mention of Cranmer , Buc●r Ridley , Taylor , &c. some of whose handes were in it , all whose voices were for it ) with whome one Iewell will not ouer-weigh tenne thousand Separatists .

SECTION . XXXVIII . Marriage not made a Sacrament by the Church of England .

HOw did confirmation escape this number ? how did Ordination ? Sep. it was your ouer-sight , Multitudes of Sacraments . The number of sacraments seemes greater amongst you by one at the least , then Christ hath left in his Testament , and that is Marriage ; which howsoeuer you doe not in expresse tearmes call a sacrament , ( no more did Christ and the Apostles call Baptisme and the supper sacraments , ) yet do you in truth create it a sacrament , in the administration and vse of it . There are the parties to be married and their marriage , representing Christ and his Church , and their spirituall Vnion : to which mysterie , saith the Oracle of your seruice-Booke expresly , God hath consecrated them : there is the Ring hallowed by the said s●ruice-Booke , ( whereon it must be laid ) for the Element ; there are the wordes of consecration ; In the name of the Father , and of the Sonne , and of the holy Ghost ; there is the place , the Church ; the time vsually , the Lords day ; the Minister , the Parish-Priest . And being made as it is , a part of Gods worship , and of the Ministers office , what is it if it be not a sacrament ? It is no part of prayer , or preaching , and with a sacrament it hath the greatest consimilitude , but an Idoll I am sure it is in the celebration of it , being made a Ministeriall duty and part of Gods worshippe , without warrant , call it by what name you will . I feare , not your charity : some things seeme , and are not : such is this your number of our Sacraments : you wil needes haue vs take in marriage into this ranke : why so ? wee doe not ( you confesse ) call it a Sacrament as the vulgar , mis-interpreting Pauls Mysterium , Ep. 5. why should we not if we so esteemed it ? wherefore serue names , but to denotate the nature of things ? If we were not ashamed of the opinion , wee could not be ashamed of the worde : No more ( say you ) did Christ and his Apostles call Baptisme and the Supper , Sacraments ; but we doe , and you with vs : See now whether this clause doe not confute your last : where hath Christ euer said , There are two Sacraments ? Yet you dare say so : what is this but in your sense an addition to the word : yea , we say flatly , there are but two : yet we doe ( you say ) in truth create it a Sacrament : how oft , and how resolutely hath our Church maintained against Rome , that none but Christ immediatly can create Sacraments ? If they had this aduantage against vs , how could wee stand ? How wrongfull is this force , to fasten an opinion vpon our Church which shee hath condemned ? But wherein stands this our creation ? It is true , the partyes to bee married , and their marriage represent Christ , and his Church , and their spirituall vnion : Beware least you strike God through our sides : what hath Gods spirit said , either lesse , or other then this ? Ephe. 5. 25. 26. 27. & . 32. Doth he not make Christ the husband , the Church his spouse ? Doth he not from that sweet coniunction , and the effects of it : argue the deere respects that should bee in marriage ? Or what doth the Apostle allude elesewhere vnto , when he saies ( as Moses of Eue ) we are flesh of Christs flesh , and bone of his bone ? And how famous amongst the ancient is that resemblance of Eue taken out of Adams side sleeping , to the Church taken out of Christs side sleeping on the Crosse ? Since marriage therefore so clearely represents this mistery : and this vse is holy and sacred : what error is it , to say that mariage is consecrated to this mistery ? But what is the Element : the Ring ; These things agree not ; you had before made the two parties to be the matter of this Sacrament ? What is the matter of the Sacrament , but the Element ? If they be the matter , they are the Element ; and so not the Ring ; both cannot be ; if you will make the two parties to bee but the receiuers ; how doth all the mistery lie in their representation ? Or if the Ring bee the Element , then all the mistery must be in the Ring , not in the parties : Labour to bee more perfect , ere you make any more newe Sacraments : but this Ring is laide vpon the seruice-booke : why not ? For readinesse , not for holinesse : Nay , but it is hallowed ( you say ) by the booke : If it be a Sacramentall Element , it rather hallowes the booke , then the booke it : you are not mindful enough for this trade : But what exorcismes are vsed in this hallowing ? Or who euer held it any other then a ciuill pledge of fidelitie ? Then follow the wordes of consecration : I pray you , what difference is there betwixt hallowing , and consecration ? The Ring was hallowed before by the booke ; now it must be consecrated : How idlely ? by what wordes ? In the name of the Father , &c. These words you know are spoken after the Ring is put on : was it euer heard of , that a Sacramentall Element was consecrated after it was applyed ? see how ill your slaunders are digested by you : The place is the Church , the time the Lords day , the minister is the actor , and is it not thus in all other reformed Churches aswell as ours . Behod , we are not alone : al Churches in the world ( if this wil do it ) are guilty of three Sacraments : Tell me , would you not haue marriage solemnized publiquely ? Br. state of Christians . 172. You cannot mislike : though your founder seemes to require nothing here but notice giuen to witnesses , and then to bed : Well , if publique ; you account it withall , a graue and weighty businesse : therefore such , as must be sanctified by publike prayer : What place is fitter for publicke prayer then the Church ? Who is fitter to offer vp the publike prayer , then the Minister ? who should rather ioyne the parties in marriage , then the publique deputie of that God , who solemnly ioyned the first couple ? who rather then he which in the name of God may best blesse them ? The prayers which accompany this solemnity are parts of Gods worshippe , not the contract it selfe : This is a mixt action , therefore compounded of Ecclesiasticall and ciuill : imposed on the Minister , not vpon necessity but expedience : neither essentiall to him , but accidentally , annexed , for greater conuenience . These two friuolous grounds haue made your cauill eyther very simple , or very wilfull .

SECTION . XL. Oath ex officio .

I Aske of auricular Confession ; you send mee to our High Commission Court : Sep. these two are much alike : Necessity of Confessions . In your high Commission Court very absolute , wher by the Oath Ex Officio men are constrained to accuse themselues of such things as whereof no man will or can accuse them ; what necessity is laid vpon men in this case , let your prisons witnes D. Cosens his Apol. But here is also very absolute necessity of confession : True ; but as in a case of iustice . not of strife to cleare a truth , not to obtaine absolution : to a bench of Iudges , not to a Priests eare ; Here are too many ghostly Fathers for an auricular Confession : But you wil mistake ; it is enough against vs , that men are constrained in these Courts to confesse against themselues : why name you these Courts onely ? Euen in others also oathes are vrged , not onely ( ex officio merclnario , but nobili ) : The honourablest Court of Starre-Chamber giues an oath in a Criminall case to the Defendant ; So doth the Chancerie , & Court of Requests : Shortly to omit forraine examples how many instances haue you of this like proceeding in the common laws of this land ? But withal you might learn that no Enquiry Ex officio may be thus made but vpon good grounds , as fame , scandal , vehement presumption , &c. going before , and giuing iust cause of suspition : Secondly , D. Andr. determ . de Iure iurando 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . that this proceeding is not allowed in any case of crime , whereby the life , or limmes of the examined partie , may be endangered : nor yet , where there is a iust suspition of future periury vpon such inforcement : Num. 5. 12. Thus is the suspected wife vrged to cleare her honesty by oath : Iosh. 7. 19. Thus the Master of the house must cleare his truth , 1. Sam. 14 43. Exod. 22. 8. Thus Achan and Ionathan are vrged to bee their owne accusers , G. Iohns . & M. Crud . Trouble at Amsterd p. 132. though not by Oath : But if perhappes any sinister course be taken by any corrupt Iusticer in their proceedings : must this be imputed to the Church ? Look you to your petty-Courts at home ; Non potest quis in vna causa ●●dem momento duas portare personas , vt in eodem iudicio & accusator sit & i●dex . Optat. Mileuit . l. 7. which some of your owne haue compared in these courses , not only to the Commission-Court of England , but to the Inquisition of Spaine : See there your Pastor defending himselfe to be both an accuser and Iudge in the same cause : See their proceedings Ex Officio without Commission : and if your prisons cannot witnes it , your excommunications may .

SECTION . XLI . Holy-daies how obserued in the Church of England .

WE haue not lost , but cast away the Idolatrous shrines of Saints : Sep. their daies wee retaine ; theirs , Prosite of Pilgr●mages . Though you haue lost the shrines of saints , yet you reteine their daies and those holy as the Lords day , and that with good profit to your spirituall carnall Courts , from such as prophane them with the least & most lawfull labour , notwithstanding the libertie of the six daies labor , which the Lord hath giuen : & as much would the Masters of these Courts be stirred at the casting of these saints daies out of the Calender , as were the masters of the possessed maid , when the spirit of diuination was cast out of her , Act. 16. 19. not for worshippe of them , which our Church condemneth , but partly for commemoration of their high deserts , and excellent examples : partly for distinction : indeede therefore Gods daies , not theirs : their praises redound to him : shew vs where we implore them , where wee consecrate daies to their seruice : The maine end of Holy-daies is for the seruice of God , Socr. l. 5. c. 21. and some , Est. 9. 17. as Socrates sets downe of olde ( quo se a laborum contentione relaxent ) for relaxation from labor : Nehem. 12. 27. if such daies may be appointed by the Church ( as were the Holy-daies of Purim , 1. Mac. 4 29. of the dedication of the wall of Ierusalem , Ioh. 10 23. the dedication of the Temple ) whose names should they rather beare ( though but for mere distinction ) then the blessed Apostles of Christ : August . Ep. 44. But this is a color only : Sc●as a Christianis Catholicis n●llum col● mortuorum , nihil demque vt numen adorari quod sit factum & conditum a Deo for you equally condemne those daies of Christs birth , Ascension , Circumcision , Resurrection , Annunciation , which the Church hath beyond all memory celebrated : what then is our fault ? We keepe these holy as the Lords daie : in the same manner , though not in the same degree : Quae toto orbe terrarum , &c. sicuti quoque Do●●ini passio & resurrectio & in caelum ascensus & aduentus spiritus sancti an niuersaria solemnitate celebrantur . Aug. Ep. 118. Indeede , we come to the Church , and worshippe the God of the Martyrs and Saints : is this yet our offence ? No : but wee abstayne from our most lawfull labor in them ; True , yet not in conscience of the day , but in obedience to the Church : If the Church shall indict a solemne fast : do not you hold it contemptuous to spend that day in lawful labour ; notwithstanding that liberty of the sixe daies which God hath giuen ? Why shall that be lawfull in a case of deiection , which may not in praise and exultation ? If you had not loued to cauil , you would rather haue accepted the Apologie , or excuse of our fister Churches in this behalfe , Churches of Fr. & Flanders in Harm. confes . Th. Whites Discouer . p. 19. then aggrauated these vncharitable pleas of your owne : yet euen in this your owne Synagogue at Amsterdame ( if we may beleeue your owne ) is not altogether guiltlesse : your handes are still and your shoppes shut vpon festiuall daies ; But we accuse you not : would God this were your worst : The Masters of our Courts would tell you , that they would not care so much for this dispossession , as that it should be done by such coniurers as your selfe .

SECTION . XLII . Our approbation of an vnlearned Ministery disproued .

YOur want of quarrels makes you still runne ouer the same complaints : Sep. which if you redouble a thousand times will not become iust , Constrained and approued ignorance . may become tedious : God knowes how farre we are from approuing an vnleared Ministery : If an ignorant and vnpreaching Ministery be approued amongst you , and the people constrained by all kinde of violence to submit vnto it , & therewith to rest ( as what is more vsuall throughout the whole Kingdome ) then let no modest man once open his mouth to deny that ignorance is constrained and approued amongst you . Confer . at Hampt . The protestations of our gratious King , our Bishoppes , our greatest Patrons of conformity in their publique writings , might make you ashamed of this bold assertion : we do not allow that it should be , we bewaile that it will be : our number of Parishes compared with our number of Diuines , will soone shew , that either many Parishes must haue none , or some Diuines must haue manie Congregations , or too many Congregations must haue scarce Diuine-incumbents : Our Dread Soueraigne hath promised a medicine for this disease : But withall tels you that Ierusalem was not built all on a day . The violence you speake of is commonly in case of wilful contempt , not of honest and peaceable desire of further instruction , or in supposall of some tolerable ability in the ministery forsaken : wee doe heartily pray for labourers into this haruest : we doe wish that all Israell could prophesie : we publish the Scriptures , we Preach , Catechize , Write , and ( Lorde thou knowest ) how manie of vs ▪ would doe more , if we knew what more could be done , for the information of thy people , English seruice . and remedy of this ignorance which this aduersary reproues vs to approue . Sep.

We doubt not but the seruice said in our Parish-Churches , Vnknowne deuotion . is as good a seruice to God , If the seruice said or sung in the parish Church may be called deuotion , then sure there is good store of vnknowne deuotion , the greatest part in most parishes , neither knowing nor regarding what is said , nor wherfore . as the extemporarie deuotions in your Parlors : But it is an vnknowne deuotion , you say : Through whose fault ? The Readers , or the Hearers , or the matter ? Distinct reading you cannot denie to the most Parishes : the matter , is easie Praiers , and English Scriptures : if the hearers be regardlesse , or in some things dull of conceite , lay the fault from the seruice to the men : All yours are free from ignorance , free from wandering conceits : we annoy you not , some knowledge is no better then some ignorance , and carelesnesse is no worse then mis-regard .

SECTION . XLIIII . The practises of the Church of England , concerning the Funerals of the dead .

YOur next accusation is more ingeniously malicious ; Sep. our Doctrine you graunt contrarie to Purgatorie : Touching Purgatory , though you deny the Doctrine of it and teach the contrary , yet how wel your practise sutes with it , let it be considered in these particulars . Your absoluing of men dying excommunicate after they bee dead , and before they may haue Christian buriall . but you will fetch it out of our practise , that we may build that which we destroy : Let vs therefore purge our selues from your Purgatorie : Wee absolue men dying Excommunicate ; A rare practise , and which yet I haue not liued to see : but if Law-makers contemne rare occurrents , surely accusers do not : Once is too much of an euill : Marke then , Doe we absolue his Soule after the departure ? No , what hath the body to doe with Purgatorie ? Yet for the body : doe we by any absolution seeke to quit it from sinne ? Nothing lesse , reason it selfe giues vs that it is vncapable either of sinne or pardon ; To lye vnburied or to be buried vnseemely , is so much a punishment , that the Heathens obiected it ( though vpon the hauocke and furie of Warre ) to the Christians : Aug. de Ciuitat . l. 1. as an argument of Gods neglect . All that authoritie can do to the dead Rebell , is to put his carkasse to shame , and denie him the honour of seemely sepulture : Athenienses decreuerunt ne siquis Se intersecisset sepeliretur in agro Attico . &c. Thus doth the Church to those which will die in wilfull contempt . Those Grecian Virgines that feared not death , were yet restrained with the feare of shame after death : it was a reall not imaginarie curse of Iezabel . The dogges shall eate Iezabel . Now the absolution ( as you call it , by an vnproper , but malicious name ) is nothing else , but a libertie giuen by the Church ( vpon repentance signified of the fault of the late offender ) of all those externall rites of decent Funerall : Death it selfe is capable of inequalitie , and vnseemelinesse : Suppose a iust Excommunication : What reason is it , that he which in his life and death would be as a Pagan , should be as a Christian in his buriall ? Sep. What is any , or all this to Purgatorie .

The next intimation of our Purgatorie , Your Christian Buriall in holy ground ( if the party will bee at the charges ; ) your ringing of hallowed bels for the soule : your singing the Corpes to the graue from the Church style ; your praying ouer or for the dead especially in these words , That God wold hasten his kingdome , that we with this our brother ( though his life were neuer so wretched and death desperate ) and all other departed in the true faith of thy holy name may haue our perfect consummation both in body and soule . is our Christian buriall , in the place , in the maner : The place Holy ground , the Church , Church-yard , &c. The manner Ringing , Singing , Praying ouer the Corps . Thus therefore you argue , we burie the body in the Church , or Church-yard , &c. therefore we hold a Purgatorie of the Soule ; a proofe not lesse strange then the opinion : We doe neither scorne the carkasses of our friends , as the old Troglodites : nor with the olde Egyptians respect them more , then when they were informed with a liuing soule : But we keepe a meane course betwixt both , vsing them as the remainders of dead men , yet as dead Christians : and as those which we hope one day to see glorious : Sleeping-places Caemiteria . Wee haue learned to call no place holy in it selfe ( since the Temple ) but some more holy in their vse , Euseb. l. 7. c. 12. then others . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 The old ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) of the Christians , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 wherein their bodies slept in peace , were not lesse esteemed of them , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Splendid ssimae sepulturae tradidit . Eus. l. 7. c. 15 Curatio funeris , conditio sepulturae , pompa exequiarum , magis sunt viuorum solatia quam subsidia mortuorum . then they are scorned of you . Galienus thought he did them a great fauour ( and so they tooke it ) when he gaue them the liberty not only of their Churches , but of their former burying-places . In the same booke Eusebius commends Astyrius a noble Senatour for his care , and cost of Marinus his buriall . Of all these Rites of Funerall , and choice of place , we professe to hold with Augustine , that they are onely the comforts of the liuing , Aug. de Ciuit l. 1. c. 12. not helpes of the dead : yet as Origen also teacheth vs , we haue learned to honour a reasonable ( much more a Christian ) soule ; Si enim paterna vestis & annulus anto char. est posteris , nullo modo ipsa spernenda sunt corpora . Aug de Ciuit. l. 1. c. 13. and to commit the instrument or case of it honourably to the graue . All this might haue taught our answerer , that wee make account of an heauen , of a resurrection ; not of a Purgatory : But we ring hallowed belles for the soule : Do not those belles hange in hallowed Steeples too ? Orig. contr. Cels. l. 8. and do we not ring them with hallowed ropes ? Rationolem animam honorare didicimus , &c. What fancie is this ? If Papists were so fond of olde : their folly and their belles ( for the most part ) are both out of date ; we call them soule-bels , for that they signifie the departure of the soule , not for that they helpe the passage of the soule . This is mere boyes-play : But wee pray over , or for the dead ; Doe wee not sing to him also ? Pardon me , I must needs tell you , here is much spight , and little wit . To pray for the consummation of the glorie of all Gods elect : What is it , but Thy Kingdome come ? How vainely doe you seeke a knot in a rush , while you cauil at so holy a petition ? Goe and learne how much better it is , to call them our Brothers , which are not , in an harmelesse ouerweening , and ouer-hoping of charity : then to call them no brothers , which are in a proud and censorious vncharitablenesse : you cannot be content to tel an vntruth , but you must face it out : Let any Reader iudge how farre our practise in this , hath dissented from our doctrine ; would to God in nothing more : Yes ( saith this good friend ) in the most other things ; our wordes professe , our deeds denie : at once you make vs hypocrites , and your selues Pharises . Let all the world know , that the English Church at Amsterdam professeth nothing which it practiseth not : we may not be so holy , or so happy .

Generality is a notable shelter of vntruth : Sep. Manie moe , Your generall doctrines and your particular practises agree in this , as in the most other things , like Harpe and Harrow . In word you professe many truthes , which in deede you denie . These and many mo popish deuises ( by others at large discouered to the world ) both for pompe and profite , are not onely not rased and buried in the dust , but are aduanced amongst you , aboue all that is called God . you say , Popish deuises , yet name none , No , you cannot . Aduanced aboue al that is called God ? surely this is a paradoxe of slaunders : you meant at once to shame vs with falshoode , and to appose vs with Riddles : we say to the highest , whom haue wee in heauen but thee ? and for earth , your selfe haue granted we giue too much to Princes , ( which are earthen Gods ) and may come vnder Pauls ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) . Eyther name our Deity , or craue mercy for your wrong : certainely , though you haue not remorse , yet you shall haue shame .

SECTION . XLV . The Churches still retained in England .

THe Maiesty of the Romish Petty-gods ( I truely told you ) was long agone with Mythra and Serapis , Sep. exposed to the laughter of the vulgar : You are farre from doing to the Romish Idols , as was done to the Aegyptian Idols Mythra and Serapis , whole prie●●s were expelled their Ministery and Monuments exposed to vtter scorn and desolation , their Temples demolished and raced to the very foundation . you straine the comparison too farre ; yet we follow you : Their Priests were expelled : for ( as your Doctor yeeldeth ) other Actors came vpon the same Stage : others in religion , else it had beene no change : Their Ministery and Monuments exposed to vtter scorne : Their Masses , their oblations , their adorations , their inuocations , their anoylings , their exorcizings , their shrift their absolutions , their Images , roode loftes , and whatsoeuer else of this kind : But the Temples of those olde Heathens were demolished and raced : Here is the quarrell : ours stand still in their proude Maiesty : Can you see no difference betwixt our Churches and their Temples ? Socrat. Hist. The very name it selfe ( if at least you haue vnderstood it ) Kirke or Church ( which is nothing but an abbreuiation of ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) the Lords house ) might haue taught you , Eccles. l. 5. c. 16. 7. that ours were dedicated to God , Bed . h●st . Eccl. l. 1. Cit. Gregor. Ep. Aug suoc . 30. & Edilbe●toregi c. 32. Contra sibi &c. Sed & H●r●ticorū templa vastata a Constantino . Euseb. l. 3. c. 63. and theirs to the Diuel , in their false gods : Augustine answeres you , as directly , as if he were in my roome : The Gentiles ( saith he ) to their Gods erected Temples , Aug. de ciuit . l. 8 c. 27. we not Temples vnto our Martyrs , Hocker 5. b. c. 13 Id Aug. contr. Max●min . as vnto Gods , but memorials as vnto dead men , whose spirits with God are still liuing : These then if they were abused by Popish Idolatrie , Arian . is there no way , Nonne sitemplum &c. but downe with them , downe with them to the ground ? Optat. Mileuit●n lib. 6. I. auistis proculdubi● pallas , Iudicate quid de codic● bus secistis : Aut vtr●mque lauate aut , &c. S● quod tangit aspectus lauandum est , vt parietes . &c. Videmus rectum , videmus & coelum &c. haec a vobis lauari non possunt . Well fare the Donatists yet , your olde friends ; they but washed the walles that were polluted by the Orthodoxe . By the same token that Optatus askes them , why they did not wash the bookes , which ours touched , and the heauens which they look't vpon : What , are the very stones sinfull ? what can be done with them ? The very earth where they should lie on heapes would be vncleane : But not their pollution angers you more , then their proud Maiesty : What house can be too good for the maker of all Things ? As God is not affected with state , so is he not delighted in basenesse . If the pompe of the Temple were ceremoniall , yet it leaues this morality behinde it , that Gods house should be decent , and what if goodly ? If we did put holines in the stones , as you doe vncleanenesse , it might be sinne to be costly : Let mee tell you , there may bee as much pride in a clay wall as in a carued : Proude Maiestie is better then proud basenesse : The stone or clay will offend in neither , Athanas. Apol. Euseb. de vita Const. we may in both : If you loue Cottages , the auncient Christians with vs , loued to haue Gods house stately , as appeares by the example of that worthie Bishoppe of Alexandria , and that gratious Constantine , in whose daies these sacred piles began to lift vp their heads vnto this enuyed height : Otho Fri●ing . l. ● . c. 3. Take you your owne choice , giue vs ours : let vs neither repine , nor scorne at each other .

SECTION . XLVI . The Founders and Furnitures of our Churches .

ALl this while I feared you had beene in Popish Idolatrie , Sep. now I finde you in Heathenish :

But your temples especially your Cathedrall and mother Churches stand still in their proude Maiestie possessed by Arch Bishops , and Lordbishops like the Flamins and Archssamins amongst the Gentiles , from whom they were deriued Lumb . lib. 4. d●st . 24. Isid. l. 7. E●imol . cap 12 and furnished with all manner of pompous and superstitious monuments , as ●arued and paynted Images , massing Copes and surplices , chaunting and Organ-musicke , and many other glorious ornaments of the Romish Harlot , by which her Maiesty is commended to , and admired by the vulgar , so farr are you in these respects for being gon , or fl●d , yea or crept either , out of Babylon .

Theuphilus Ep●s● . cum ●aeteras s●●tuas deorum confi●ngeret , v●am integram seruari i●●sst . eamque in loco publico e●exit vt Gentiles tempore progrediente non inficiarentur se ●umsm●di D●us col●sse . 〈◊〉 Grammat● us hac dere valded scruciatus Dixit grauem plagam religioni Gr●corum inct●●●m , quod illa vna statcia no● euerteretur . Socrat. l. 5. c. 16.

These our Churches are still possessed by their Flamins , and Arch-Flamins : I had thought none of our Temples had beene so auncient : Certainely I finde but one poore tuinous building , reported to haue worne out this long tyranny of time : For the most , you might haue read their age , and their Founders in open Records : But these were deriued from those : surely , the Churches as much as the men : It is true , the Flamins , and what euer other heathen Priests , were put down , Christian Bishoppes were set vp : Are these therfore deriued from those ? Christianity came in the roome of Iudaisme , was it therefore deriued from it ? Before you tolde vs , that our Prelacy came from that Antichrist of Rome , now from the Flamins of the Heathen : Both no lesse , then either : If you cannot bee true , yet learne to be constant . But what meane you to charge our Churches with carued and painted Images ? It is wel you write to those that know them ; Why did you not say wee bow our knees to them , and offer incense ? perhaps you haue espied , some old dustie statue in an obscure corner , couer'd ouer with Cob-webs , with halfe a face , and that miserably blemished , or perhappes halfe a Crucifixe inuerted in a Church-window , and these you surely noted for English Idols : no lesse dangerous glasse you might haue seene at Geneua , a Church that hates Idolatrie , as much as you doe vs : What more ? Massing copes and Surplices : some copes ( if you will ) more Surplices , no Massing : Search your Bookes againe ; you shall finde Albes in the Masse , no Surplices : As for Organ-musicke , you should not haue fetch 't it from Rome , but from Ierusalem : In the Reformed Church at Middleburgh , Sep. you might haue found this skirt of the Harlot : Now if you be thus ▪ Babylonish where you repute your selues most Syonlike , and thus confounded in your owne euidence , what defence could you make in the things wherof an aduersary would challenge you : If your light be darkenesse , how great is your darknes ? which yet you grant at least crept out of Babylon ; Iudge now ( Christian reader ) of the weight of these grand exceptions : and see whether ten thousand such were able to make vs no Church , and argue vs not only in Babilon , but to be Babilon it selfe : Thus Babilonish we are to you , and thus Sion-like to God : euerie true Church is Gods Sion : euerie Church that holdes the foundation is true , according to that golden rule , Ephes. 2. 21. Euery building that is coupled together in this corner stone , groweth vnto an holy Temple in the Lord : No aduersarie either man or Diuell can confound vs , either in our euidences , or their owne Challenges : wee may be faulty , but we are true : And if the darknes you finde in vs be light , how great is our light ?

SECTION . XLVII . On what ground separation or Ceremonies was obiected .

HE that leaues the whole Church in a grosse and wilfull error , Sep. is an hereticke ; he that leaues a particular Church for appendances is a schismaticke :

But for that not the separation but the cause makes the schismaticke ; and least you should seeme to speak euill of the thing you know not , and to condemne a cause vnheard , you lay downe in the next place the supposed cause of our separation , against which you deale as insufficiently . And that you pretend to bee , none other then your consorting with the Papist in certaine Ceremonies : touching which and our separation in regard of them thus you write .

M. H. If you haue taken but the least knowledge of the grounds of our iudgement and practise , how dare you thus abuse both vs and the reader , as if the onely or chiefe ground of our separation were your popish ceremonies ▪ but if you go only by guesse hauing neuer so much as read ouer one treatise published in our defence , & yet stick not to passe this your censorious doom both vpon vs & it ; I leaue it to the reader to iudge whether you haue beene more lauish of your censure or credit . Most vniust is the censure of a cause vnknowne , though in it selfe neuer so blame-worthy , which neuerthelesse may be prais-worthy , for ought he knowes that censures it .

such are you , both in the action , and cause : The act is yeelded , the cause hath beene in part scanned , shall be more : This I vainely pretended , to be our consorting in ceremonies with the papists : Behold here the ground of your loude challenge of my ignorance : Ignorance of your iudgement and practise : Here is my abuse of you , of my Reader : and , how durst I ? Good words ( M. R. ) What I haue erred , I will confesse : I haue wronged you indeed : but in my charity : I knew the cause of Brownisme , but I knew not you : For ( to say ingenuously ) I had heard and hoped , that your case had beene lesse desperate ; My intelligence was , that in dislike of these ceremonies obtruded , and an hopelesnes of future libertie , you and your fellowes had made a secession , rather then a separation from our Church ; to a place , where you might haue scope to professe , and opportunity to inioy your owne conceites : whence it was , that I tearmed you Ringleaders of the late separation , not followers of the first , and made your plea against our Church , imperfection , not falshood : I hoped you , as not ours , so not theirs : not ours in place , so not quite theirs in pieuish opinion : I knew it to be no new thing for men inclining to these fancies , to beginne new Churches at Amsterdam , seuerall from the rest : witnesse the letters of some ( sometimes yours ) cited by your owne pastor : Inq into M. White . I knew the former separation , and hated it ; I hoped better of the latter separation and pittyed it : My knowledge both of * * Which vpon the Lords prayer hath confuted some positions of that sect . Master Smith whome you followed , and your selfe , would not let mee thinke of you , as you deserued : How durst I charge you with that , which perhaps you might disauow ? It was my charity therefore , that made my accusations easie : it is your vncharitablenes that accuses them of ignorance . I knew why a Brownist is a true schismaticke ; I knew not you were so true a Brownist . But why then did I write ? Taking your seperation at best : I knew how iustly I might take occasion by it to disswade from seperation : to others good , though not to yours : Now I know you better , or worse rather , I thinke you heare more : Forgiue me my charity , and make the worst of my ignorance . I knew that this separation ( which now I know yours ) stands vpon foure grounds : as some beast vpon foure feete . First , God worshipped after a false manner , Secondly , Prophane multitude receiued , Bar. & . Grecu● , passim . Pen● . Exam. Thirdly , Antichristian Ministery imposed , Fourthly , subiection to Antichristian Gouernement : The ceremonies are but as some one paw in euery foote : yet if wee extend the word to the largest vse , diuiding all Religion into ceremonie , and substance : I may yet , and do auerre , that your separation is meerely grounded vppon Ceremonies .

SECTION . XLVIII . Estimation of Ceremonies , and subiection to the Prelates .

AND touching ceremonies ; you refused them formerly , but not long : and when you did refuse them , you knew not wherefore ; for immediately before your suspension , Sep. you acknowledged them to be things indifferent , And touching the ceremonies here spoken of , howsoeuer we haue formerly refused them , submitting ( as all others did and d●e ) to the Prelates spirituall Iurisdiction , ( herein through ignorance strayning at Gnats and swallowing Camels ) yet are we verily perswaded of them , and so were before we separated , that they are but as leaues of that tree , and as badges of that man of sinne , whereof the Pope is head , and the prelates shoulders . And so we for our parts see no reason why any of the Bishops sworne seruants ( as all the Ministers in the Church of England are Canonically ) should make nice to weare their Lords liueryes . Which ceremonies notwithstanding wee know wel enough , howsoeuer you for aduantage extenuate , and debase them vnto vs , to be aduanced , and preferred in your Church , before the preaching of the Gospell . and for matter of scandall by them you had not informed your selfe ( by your own confession ) of a whole quarter of a yeare after : Why refused you then , but as the Poet made his playes , to please the people , or as Simon Magus was baptized for company ? But refusing them , you submitted to the Prelates spirituall Iurisdiction : there was your crime ; this was your Camell , the other your Gnats : Did euer any Prelate challenge spirituall rule ouer your conscience ?

This they all appropriate to the great Bishoppe of our soules : and if other ; graunt them as your malice faineth : what sinne is it to be the subiect of a Tyrant ? now vpon more grace , refusing the Prelacy , you haue branded the ceremonies : So you did before your separation : Tell vs how long was it after your suspension , and before your departure , that you could haue beene content ( vpon condition ) to haue worne this linnen badge of your man of sinne ? Was not this your resolution , when you went from Norwich to Lincoln-shire , after your suspension ? Denie it not ; my witnesses are too strong . But let vs take you as you are : these ceremonies , though too vile for you , yet are good enough for our Ministers of England : As if you said , Lord , I thanke thee , I am not as this Publican : Why , for our Ministers ? Because , those are the Liueries , and these the sworne seruants of the Antichristian Bishoppes : We haue indeede sworne obedience to our Ordinarie , in honest and lawfull commaundements , but seruice to Christ : But dooth all obedience imply seruitude ? This obedience is , as to spirituall Fathers , not to Masters : yet so are wee the seruants of Christ , 1. Cor. 4. 1. Hierom. in Ps. 44. that we are ready to giue our seruice to the least of his Saints : Thus vile will wee be for God : Heming . Class. 3 Potest . Eccles. c. 10. How much more to those whom God hath made ( as Hierom saies ) Principes Ecclesiae : whiles they command for God : Vtcuique suus clerus & sua plebs in his quae Domini sunt , piè obsequerentur . Ignat. Epi. ad Tarsens . What doe we herein , but that which Epiphanius vrged of olde against Aerius ; What but the same which Ignatius ( that holy and old Martyr ) requires ( not once ) of all Presbyters , and offers the ingagement of his owne soule for vs in this acte .

As for our ceremonies , Sep. aggrauate them how you can for your aduantage , It is much that they being not so much as Reede nor any part of the building ( as you pretend ) should ouerturne the best builders amongst you as they doe . they are but ceremonies to vs : and such , as wherein we put no holinesse , but order , decency , conuenience : But they are preferred ( you say ) in our Church , before the preaching of the Gospell : A most wrongfull vntruth ; Wee holde preaching an essentiall part of Gods seruice , ceremonies none at all : The Gospell preached we holde the life and soule of the Church , Ceremonies eyther the Garment , or the lace of the Garment : The Gospell preached we hold the Foundation and Wals , Ceremonies hardly so much as Reede , or Tile : But how then ( say you ) haue they ouerturned our best builders ? This is a word of rare fauor : I had thought you had held vs all ruiners , not builders : Or if builders ; of Babel , not of Hierusalem : in which worke , the best builders are the worst . Those whose hand hath beene in this act would tel you , that not so much the Ceremonies are stood vpon , as obedience : If God please to trie Adam but with an Apple , it is enough : What doe we quarrel at the value of the fruit , when we haue a prohibition ? Shimei is slaine : what merely for going out of the Citie ? the act was little , the bond was great : what is commaunded matters not so much , as by whom ; insult not , wee may thanke your outrage for this losse .

For your retortion of my Zoar and Sodome : Sep. I can giue you leaue to be wittie , The proportion betwixt Zoar & them holdes well : Zoar was a neighbour vnto Sodome both in place and sinne , and obnoxious to the same destruction with it : and it was ●ots errour to desire to haue it spared , Gen. 19. 15 , 18 , 19 , 20 and so he neuer found rest nor peace in it , but forsooke it for feare of the same iust iudgement , which had ouertaken the rest of the Cities , vers. 30. The application of this to your ceremonies I leaue to your selfe , and them to that destruction , to which they are deuoted by the Lord . you vse it so seldome : but when you haue played with the allusion what you list , I must tell you that hee which will needes vrge a Comparison to goe on foure feete , is not worthy to goe vpon two : Zoar was neere to Sodome , not part of it : Zoar was reserued when Sodome was destroyed : Fidem Domino habere debuerat quise cam seruaturum propter cumdixerat . Mercer . in Genes. Zoars neerenesse to the place where Sodome stood , needed not haue giuen Lot cause of remoueall . Zoar might safely haue beene the harbour of Lot : his feare was for want of faith : God promised him and the place security : the far-fetcht application therfore of the wickednesse of Zoar to our Ceremonies might wel haue been forborne and kept to your selfe : much lesse needed you ( like some Anti - Lot ) to call for fire and Brimstone from heauen vpon your Zoar.

SECTION . XLIX . The state of the Temple , and of our Church in resemblance .

HOw you would haue behaued your selfe in the Temple to the mony-changers : Sep. you will aunswer when we proue our Church to be Gods Temple , How we wold haue behaued our selues in the Temple , where the mony-changers were , and they that solde Doues , we shal answere you , when you proue your Church to be the Temple of God , compiled and built of spiritually-hewen and liuely stones 1. Kin. 5. 17. 18 & 6. 7. 1. pet: 2. 5. and of the Cedars , Firs , and Thyne trees of Lebanon . 2. Chr. 2. 8. framed and set together in that comely order which a greater then Salomon hath prescri●ed : vnto which God hath promised his presence . But whilst we take it to be ( as it is ) a confused heape of dead and defiled , and polluted stones , and of all rubbish , of Bryers and brambles of the wildernesse , for the most part , fitter for burning then building , we take our selues rather bound to shew our obedience in departing from it , then our valour in purging it , and to follow the prophets councel in flying out of Babylon , as the hee goats before the flock , Ie● . 50. 8 built of that matter , and in that form which God hath prescribed : and here you send vs to 1. K. 5. 17. & 2. Chr. 2. 8. Ignorantly ; as if Salomons Temple had stood till Christs time : when neither the first , nor second ( though called Beth Gnolam ) out lasted more then foure hundred yeares : Or as if the Market had beene vnder the very roofe of that Temple : whether Herods were built of the same matter with Salomons , and in full corespondence to it , I dispute not : it was certainely dedicated to Gods seruice , and that ( which you would hardly digest ) in a solemne anniuersary holy-day ; though not erected vpon the word of any Prophet . But to let passe Allegories : we must proue our selues the true Church of God : Thus we doe it : We are true Christians , for we were baptized into the name of Christ ; we truely professe our continuance in the same faith , into which we were baptized : we ioyne together in the publique seruices of God : we maintain euery point of the most ancient Creeds : wee ouerthrowe not the foundation by any consequence , therefore what euer is wanting to vs , what euer is superfluous , in spight of all the gates of Hell , we are the true Church of God . Let me aske you : Were not the people of the Iewes in the Prophets and in Christs time a confused heape of dead and defiled , and ( for I will vse your Tautologies ) polluted stones , and of all rubbish , of Bryers and brambles of the Wildernesse , for the most part fitter for burning then building ? Can we be worse then they ? If wickednesse can defile a Church , they shal iustifie vs : did either those Prophets or our Sauiour , rather shewe their obedience to God in departing from it , then their valour in purging it : you haue well imitated these heauenly patternes , But what ? Can your charity finde nothing but rubbish ? Not one square stone , not one liuing ? You will bee iudging till God iudge you : if you take not heede of these courses , you will so runn with the Hee goates , that you wil stand with the Goates on the left hand : That God , whose place you haue vsurped , giue you more wisedome and loue .

SECTION . L. Whether Ministers should endure themselues silenced .

THe valour of our most zealous Reformers hath truely shewed it selfe in yeeldance : As in Duels , so here , he is the most valiant that can so master himselfe as not to fight : you according to the common opinion of Swaggerers , Sep. blame the peaceable of cowardise , And what I pray you is the valour which the best hearted and most zealous Reformers amongst you , haue manifested in driuing out the Mony-changers ? doth it not appeare in this , that they suffer ▪ themselues to be driuen out with the two stringed Whippe of . Ceremonies , and subscription , by the Mony-changers , the Chancellers and Officials , which sell. sinnes like Doues ; and by the chiefe priests the Bishoppes which set them on worke ? so farre are the most zealous amongst you from driuing out the Mony-changers , as they themselues are driuen out by them , because they will not change with them to the vtmost farthing . Bar. Refor , without Tar. and accuse them of suffering . Behold a newe crime : That they suffer themselues to be driuen out : What should they haue done ? Should they haue taken armes , and crie the sword of God , and Gedion ? You that wil not allow a Prince to compell subiects , Will you allow subiects to compell Princes ? God forbidde : This were high Treason against Gods annointed : what then ? Should they approue the Ceremonies by subscription , by practise ? This you exclaime vppon as high Treason against the highest : What yet more ? Should they haue preached with their mouthes stop't ? This is it , which you haue learned of your founder , and through not many handes receiued , and required with no lesse violence : Clamour and tumult is that you desire ; still let our sinne be peaceable obedience , yours fury and opposition Your headstrong conceit is , that it is a sinne to be silenced : Men must preach euen when they may not : all times , before you , would haue wondred at this Paradoxe : For how euer the Apostles , which had not their calling from men , would not be silenced by men , yet wee finde that all their successours held that those hands which were layd vpon their heads , might be laid vpon their mouthes : looke into all Histories : Those Constitutions ( which though not Apostolike ( yet were auncient ) in the seuenth Canon punish a Bishop or Presbiter , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . that vpon pretence of Religion separates from his wife , with deposition : and if any Presbiter shall shift his charge without licence ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) and lastly inflicts the same penalty vpon fornication , Wee charge him not to serue any more . So Can. 15. Can. 25. Cum compertum fuerit deponatur . Can. 10. De Clericatus honore periclitabitur . Can. 2. E clero deponatur & sit alienus a Canone . Can. 17. et Can. 18. A ministerio cessare debuerit Concil. Sardic . c. 4. Concil. Carth. 4. c. 48. & 56. 57. Leo. Ep. 1. Sect. 5. Cypr. l. 3. Ep. 9. S●cr . l. 2. c. 21. adulterie , periury .

The great Nicene Councels take the same order with some misliked Bishops , and Presbiters in diuers Canons : Gaudentius in the Councell of Sardi , takes it for graunted , that a Bishop may by Bishops be deposed : so the second Councell of Carthage , Can. 13. so the fourth Councell of Carthage more then once imposes degradation : so Leo the first threats to put some offending persons from the office of their Ministrie : so ( that I may not be endlesse ) blessed Cyprian aduises Rogatianus a good olde Bishop , which was abused by a malapert Deacon , by the authority of his Chaire to right himselfe , and either to depose , or suspend the offender . Leontius in Socrates , is depriued of his Priesthood : yea , what Councell or Father giues not both rules and instances , of this practise ? See how farre the auncient Church was from these tumultuous fancies : No , no , ( M. R. ) we well finde , it is doing that vndoes the Church , not suffering : If your fellowes could haue suffered more , and done lesse , the Church had bin happy : As for our Church officers , you may raile vpon them with a lawlesse safety : there is a great ditch betwixt you and them : else you might pay deare for this sinne of slandering them with their cheape peny-worths : How idly doe you insult ouer those , whom your Mony-changers haue driuen out of their Pulpits : When you confesse ( after all your valour ) that they haue driuen you both out of Church and Country : who can pitty a miserable insulter ?

SECTION . LI. Power of reforming abuses giuen to the Church : and the issue of the neglect of it .

YOu that can graunt there will be corruptions in all other Churches , will endure none in ours : If England should haue either vnleauened Wafers , or drunken Loue-feasts ( though no other blemishes ) she could not but be Babilon : Wee enuie not your fauours : These , or whatsoeuer like enormities , Christ hath giuen power vnto his Church to reforme : but what if the Church neglect to vse it ? What if those euils , which are brought in , by humane frailty , will not by diuine authority be purged out ? Now the errour ( by your doctrine ) is growne fundamentall ; so Christ is lost , Bar ▪ ag. Gyff p. 27. & 88. and the foundation raced : if wee shall then assume ( against our friends , to conuince our enemies ) The Church of Geneua hath been seriously dealt with , Sep. in this corruption , and disswaded by vehement importunity , For the Wafers in Geneua , and disorders in Corinth , they were corruptions which may and doe ( or the like vnto them ) creep into the purest Churches in the world : for the reformation wherof Christ hath giuen his power vnto his Church , that such euils as are brought in by humane frailty , may by diuine authority bee purged out . yet still persisteth : How can you free them , and charge vs ? see how we loue to be miserable , with company . This power to purge out all corruptions , Christ hath not giuen vs : if he hath giuen it you ; you must first begin to purge out your selues : you haue done it ; but still there remaine some : would God wee had as much execution as power : Our Church should be as cleane as yours is schismaticall : if you should measure faculties by their exercise : Naturall rest should be the greatest enemie to vertue : and the solitarie Christian should be miserable : This power of ours is not dead , but sleepeth : When it awaketh vnto more frequent vse , ( which we earnestly pray for ) looke you for the first handsell of it : None can be more worthy : as it is ; we offend not more in defect then you in excesse : Of whom that your Lazarello of Amsterdam G. I. could say , that you haue excommunications as ready as a Prelate hath a prison : Christ is in many that feele him not ; but wee want not the power onely , This power and presence of Christ you want , holding all by homage ( or rather by vilenage ) vnder the Prelates , vnto whose sinfull yoake you stoup in more then Babylonish bondage , bearing and approuing by personall communion , infinite abhominations . Troubl . & Excom. at Amsterd . An tu solus Ecclesia es ? Et qui te offenderit a Christo excluditur . Hieron . Eriphan . Cypr. Solus in caelum ascend . Pupianus ? Et ad Acesium Nouatianum Constant. Erigito tibi scalam Acesi , & ad caelum solus ascendito . Socr. l. 1. C. 7. but the presence of Christ : How so ? He was with vs while you were here : Did he depart with you ? will the separatists engrosse our Sauiour to themselues , and ( as Cyprian said of Pupianus ) goe to heauen alone ? yea , confine the God of heauen to Amsterdam ? What insolence in this ? we haue him in his Word : wee haue him in his Sacraments : we haue him in our hearts : we haue him in our profession , yet this enemie dare say we want him : Wherein ? I suppose in our censures : We haue Peters keyes ( as his true successours both in office , and doctrine ) : Bar. Gyff . ref. So some of their owne haue termed their excommunication . Confess . by M. Iohns . Inqu . p. 65 our fault is ; that we vse them not , as you would : What Church doth so ? your first Martyr doth as zealously inueigh against the practise of Geneua , and all other reformed Congregations in this point , as against vs : both for the wooden dagger ( as he termes it ) of suspension , and for their Consistoriall excommunications : Woe were to all the world , if Christ should limit his presence onely to your fashions : Heere you found him , and heere you left him : Would to God wee did no more grieue him with our sinnes , then you please him in your presumptuous censures : in the rest you raile against our Prelates and vs : Can any man think that Christ hath left peaceable spirits , to goe dwell with railers ? Indeed , yours is free-hold : so you wold haue it : free from subiection , free from obedience : This is loosenesse , more then liberty : You haue broken the bonds , and cast the cordes from you : but you miscall our Tenure : We hate villenage no lesse then you hate peace ; and hold ( in capite ) of him , Col. 1. 18. that is the head of his body , the Church : vnder whose easie yoake wee doe willingly stoope in a sweet Christian freedome ; Sep. abhorring , And in these two last respects principally , your Babylonish confusion of all sorts of people in the body of your Church , without separation , and your Babylonish bondage vnder your spirituall Lords the Prelates , we account you Babylon , and flie from you . and reprouing ( and therefore notwithstanding our personall communion auoiding ) all abhominations : In these two respects therefore of our confusion , and bondage , wee haue well seene in this discourse , how iustly your Sion accounts vs Babylon : since it is apparent for the one , that here is neither confusion , nor Babylonish , nor without separation : For the other , no bondage , no seruility : Our Prelats being our Fathers , not our Masters : and if Lords for their external dignity , Amari Parens & Episcopus debet , non timeri . Hier. ad Theophilum . yet not Lords of our Faith : and if both these your respects were so , yet so long as we doe inviolably hold the foundation , both directly , and by necessary sequell : any railer may terme vs , but no Seperatist shall proue vs Babylon : you may flye whether you list : would God yet further , vnlesse you had more loue .

SECTION . LII . The view of the sinnes and disorders of others , whereupon obiected : and how farre it should affect vs .

I Neede no better Analyser then your selfe , saue that you doe not onely resolue my parts , Sep. but adde more : M. H hauing formerly expostulated with vs our supposed impietie in forsaking a ceremonious Babylon in England , proceeds in the next place to lay downe our madnesse in chusing a substantiall Babylon in Amsterdam : and if it be so found by due trial , as he suggesteth , it is hard to say , whether our impiety or madnes be the greater . whereas euery motion hath a double terme : from whence , and whither : both these could not but fall into our discourse ; hauing therefore formerly expostulated with you for your ( since you will so terme it ) impiety , in forsaking a ceremonious Babylon of your owne making in England : I thought it not vnfit to compare your choice with your refusall : England with Amsterdam , which it pleaseth you to intitle a substantiall Babylon : impiety and madnes are titles of your owne choice , let your guiltinesse be your owne accuser : The truth is , my charity and your vncharitablenes haue caused vs to mistake each other : my charity thus : Hearing both at Middleburgh , and here , that certaine companies from the parts of Nottingham and Lincolne ( whose Harbinger had beene newly in Zeland before me ) meant to retyre themselues to Amsterdam , for their full libertie , not for the full approbation of your Church : not fauouring your maine opinions , but emulating your freedome in too much hate of our ceremonies , and too much accordance to some grounds of your hatred : I hoped you had beene one of their guides ; both because Lincoln-shire was your Country , and Master Smith your Oracle , and Generall : Not daring therefore to charge you with perfect Brownisme , what could I thinke might bee a greater motiue to this your supposed change , then the view of our ( so oft proclaimed ) wickednesse , and the hope of lesse cause of offence in those forraine parts : this I vrged , fearing to goe deeper then I might bee sure to warrant : Now comes my charitable answerer , and imputes this easines of my challenge , to my ignorance ; and therefore will needes perswade his Christian reader , that I knew nothing of the first separation , because I obiected so little to the second .

It were strange if I should thinke , Sep. you gather Churches there by Town-rowes ( as we in England ) who know that some one prison might hold all your refined flocke :

Belike M. H. thinkes we gather churches here by towne-rowes , as they doe in England , and that all within the parish procession are of the same Church . Wherefore else tels hee vs of Iewes , Arrians , and Anabaptists , with whom we haue nothing common but the streetes and market-place ? It i● the condition of the Church to liue in the world , and to haue ciuill society with the men of this world , 1. Cor. 5. 10. Ioh. 17. 13.

But what is this to that spirituall communion of the saints , in the fellowshippe of the Gospell , wherin they are separated , and sanctified from the world vnto the Lord ? Ioh. ▪ 17. 16. 1. Cor. 1. 2. Cor. 6. 17. 18.

you gathered here by Hedge-rowes ; but there it is easier to tell how you diuide , then how you gather : let your Church be an intire body , inioying her owne spirituall communion , yet if it be not a corrasiue to your heart to conuerse in the same streetes , and to be ranged in the same Towne-rowes with Iewes , Arians , Anabaptists , &c. you are no whit of kinne to him , that vexed his righteous soule with the vncleanenesses of foule Sodom . That good man had nothing but ciuill society with those impure neighbours : he differed from them in Religion , in practise , yet could hee not so carelesly turne off this torment : His house was Gods Church ; wherein they had the spirituall communion of the Saints : yet whiles the Citie was so vncleane , his heart was vnquiet : Separation from the world , how required . We may ( you graunt ) haue ciuill society with ill men , spirituall communion onely with Saints : Those must be accounted the world , these onely the Church : your owne allegations shall condemne you . Ioh. 17. 16. They are not of the world ( saith Christ ) as I am not of the world : Both Christ , and they were partes of the Iewish Church : The Iewish Church was not so sanctified , but the most were extreamely ▪ vncleane : therefore wee may bee partes of a visible vnsanctified Church ; and yet be separate from the world . Saint Paul writes to his Corinthians , sanctified in Christ , 1. Cor. 1. 2. 1. Cor. 3. 3. Saints by calling : True , but not long after , he can say , ye are yet carnall . In his second Epistle : Come out ( saith he ) from among them : But , from whom ? From Infidels by profession , not corrupted Christians .

SECTION . LIII . The nearenesse of the State and Church , and the great errours found by the Separatists in the French and Dutch Churches .

THE Church and State , Sep. if they be two , We indeed haue much wickednes in the Citie where we liue ; you in the Church . ●ut in earnest , doe you imagine we account the Kingdome of England Babylon , or the citie of Amsterdam Syon ▪ It is the Church of England , or state Ecclesiasticall , which we account Babylon , and from which we withdraw in spirituall communion : ●ut for the common-wealth and Kingdome , as we honor it aboue all the states in the world , so wold we thankfully embrace the meanest corner in it , at the extreamest conditions of any people in the Kingdome . yet they are twins , and that so , as eithers euill proues mutuall : The sinnes of the Citie not reformed , blemish the Church ; where the Church hath power and in a sort comprehends the State , she cannot wash her hands of tollerated disorders in the Common-wealth : hence is my comparison of the Church ( if you could haue seene it , not the Kingdome ) of England , with that of Amsterdam : I doubt not , but you could be content to sing the old song of vs , Bona terra , mala gens : Our land you could like well , if you might be Lordes alone , Thankes be to God it likes not you , and iustly thinkes the meanest corner too good for so mutinous a generation : when it is weary of peace it will recall you : you that neither in prison , nor on the Seas , nor in the Coasts of Virginea , nor in your way , nor in Netherland could liue in peace , What shall we hope of your ease at home ? Where ye are , all you thankful Tenants cannot in a powerful Christian state moue God to distinguish betwixt the knowen sinnes of the Citie , and the Church : How oft hath our gratious Soueraigne , and how importunately beene solicited for a tolleration of Religions ? It is pittie that the Papists hyred not your aduocation : who in this pointe are those true Cassanders , which reuerend Caluin long since confuted : Their wishes herein are yours : Cassand . de Offic boni viri . Bellar. de Laicis To our shame and their excuse : his Christian heart held that tolleration vnchristian and intollerable , which you either neglect or magnifie : Good Constantine wink 't at it in his beginning , Euseb. in vita Const. but as Dauid at the house of Zeruiah : Succeeding times found these Canaanites to be prickes and thornes , and therefore both by mulctes and banishments sought eyther their yeeldance or voydance . If your Magistrates hauing once given their names to the Church , indevour not to purge this Augean stable ; how can you preferre their Communion to ours ?

But howsoeuer now , least we should thinke your Land-lords haue too iust cause to pack you away for wranglers , you turne ouer all the blame from the Church to the City ; yet your Pastor and Church haue so found the Citie in the Church , and branded it with so blacke markes , as that all your smooth extenuations cannot make it a lesse Babylon then the Church of England : Beholde now by your owne Confessions either Amsterdam shall be , or England shall not be Babylon : These eleuen crimes you haue found and proclaimed in those Dutch and French Churches : Fr. Iohns . Articles ag. the Fr● and Dutch Churches . First , That the assembles are so contriued that the whole Church comes not together in one : So that the Ministers cannot together with the flock sanctifie the Lords day ; The presence of the members of the Church cannot be knowne , and finally no publique action , whether excommunication , or any other can rightly be performed . Could you say worse of vs ? Where neither Sabboth can be rightly sanctified ; nor presence or absence knowne , nor any holy action rightly performed , what can there be but mere confusion ?

Secondly , That they baptise the seede of them who are no members of any visible Church ; of whom moreouer they haue not care as of members , neither admit their parents to the Lordes Supper : Mere Babylonisme , and sinne in constitution , yea the same that makes vs no Church : for what separation can there be in such admittance ? what other but a sinfull commixture ? How is the Church of Amsterdam now gathered from the world ?

Thirdly , That in the publique worshippe of God they haue deuised , and vsed another forme of prayer , besides that which Christ our Lord hath prescribed , Mat. 6. reading out of a booke certain prayers inuented and imposed by man . Beholde here our fellow Idolaters : and ( as followes ) a daily Sacrifice of a set Seruice-booke , which in stead of the sweete incense of spirituall prayers is offered to God , very Swines-flesh , Bar. ag. Gyss . a new Por●uise , and an equal participation with vs of the curse of addition to the word .

Fourthly , That rule and commandement of Christ , Matth. 18. 15. they neither obserue , nor suffer rightly to be obserued among them . How oft haue you said that there can bee no sound Church without this course , because no separation ? Beholde the maine blemish of England in the face of Amsterdam !

Fiftly , That they worship God in the Idoll Temples of Antichrist : so the Wine is mar'd with the vessell , their seruice abhomination with ours : neyther doe these Antichristian stones want all glorious ornaments of the Romish harlot , yet more .

Sixtly , That their Ministers haue their set maintenance after another manner then Christ hath ordained , 1. Chr. 14. and that also such , as by which any Ministery at all , whether Popish or other might bee maintained : Either tithes , or as ill : Beholde one of the maine Arguments wherby our Ministery is condemned as false and Antichristian , falling heauie vppon our neighbours .

Seuenthly , That their Elders change yearely , and do not continue in their office , according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the Primitiue Church : What can our Church haue worse then false Gouernours ? Both annuall and perpetual they cannot be : What is ( if not this ) a wrong in Constitution ?

Eightly , that they celebrate mariage in the Church , as if it were a part of the Ecclesiasticall administration : a foule shame and sinne : and what better then our third Sacrament ?

Ninthly , That they vse a new censure of suspension which Christ hath not appointed : no lesse then English presumption .

Tenthly , That they obserue daies and times , consecrating certaine daies in the yeare to the Natiuity , Resurrection , Ascension of Christ : Beholde their Calender as truely possessed : Two Commaundements solemnely broken at once ; and we not Idolaters alone .

Eleuenth , which is last and worst , that they receiue vnrepentant excommunicates to bee members of their Church , which by this meanes becomes one one body with such as be deliuered vnto Sathan ; therefore none of Christs bodie : Counrtepoys . England can be but a miscelline rabble of prophane men ; The Dutch and French Churches are belike no better , who can be worse then an vnrepentant excommunicate ? Goe now and say , It is the Apostasie of Antichrist to haue communion with the world in the holy things of God , which are the peculiars of the Church , and cannot without great Sacriledge be so prostituted and prophaned ; Goe say , that the plaguy-spirituall-leprosie of sinne rising vp in the foreheads of many in that Church , vnshut vp , vncouered ( yea wilfully let loose ) infects all both persons and things amongst them : Goe now and flie out of this Babylon also , as the Hee-goates before the flocke , or returne to ours : But howeuer these errours bee grosse , perhappes they are tractable ; Not the sinne vndoes the Church , but obstinacy ; here is no euasion : For behold , you do no more accuse those Churches of corruption , then of wilfulnesse : for diuers times haue you dealt with them about these fearefull enormities : yea you haue often de●ired , that knowledge thereof might be by themselues giuen to the whole body of their Church , or that ( at least ) they would take order that it might be done by you : They haue refused both ; What remaines , but they be our fellow-Heathens and Publicanes ? And not they alone , but all reformed Churches besides in Christendome , which doe ioyntly partake in all these ( except one or two personall ) abhominations : will you neuer leaue til you haue wrangled your selues out of the world ?

But now I feare I haue drawne you to say , that the hellish impieties both in the Citie , Sep. and Church of Amsterdam are but frogges , The hellish impieties in the citie of Amsterdam doe no more preiudice our heauenly communion in the Church of Christ , then the frogs , lyce , flyes , moraine , and other plagues ouerspreading Egypt , did the Israelites when Goshen the portion of their inheritance was free Exod 8. 19. nor then the deluge , wherewith the whole world was couered did Noah , when he and his family were safe in the Arke , Gen. 7. nor then sathans throne did the Church of Pergamus being established in the same citie with it , Re● . 2. 12 , 13. lyce , flies , moraine and other Egiptian plagues , not preiudicing your Goshen : Say so if you dare ; I feare they would soone make the Ocean your redde Sea , and Virginia your Wildernesse .

The Church is Noahs Arke , which gaue safetie to her Guests , whereof ye are part ; but remember that it had vncleane beasts also , and some sauage : If the waues drowne you not , yet ( me thinkes ) you should complaine of noysome society : Sathans throne could not preiudice the Church of Pergamus , but did not the Balaamites ( the Nicolaitanes ? ) Yet their heauenly communion stood , and the Angell is sent away with but threates .

SECTION . LV. The impure mixtures of the Church of England .

AS there is no element which is not through many mixtures departed from the first simplicitie : Sep. So no Church euer breathed in so pure an Ayre , The ayre of the Gospell which you draw in is nothing so free and cleare as you make shew : it is only because you are vsed to it , that makes you so iudge . as that it might not iustly complaine of some thicke and vnwholsome euaporations of errour and sinne . If you challenge an immunity , you are herein the true broode of the auncient Puritanes : But if too many sinnes in practise haue thickened the Ayre of our Church , yet not one heresie : that smoake of the bottomlesse pit hath neuer corrupted it : and therefore iustly may I auerre , that here you might drawe in the cleare Ayre of the Gospell : No wherevpon earth more freely : And if this be but the opinion of custome , you whom absence hath helped with a more nice and dainty sent , speake your worst : Shew vs our heresies , and shame vs : you haue done it , and behold foure maine infections of our English ayre : The first , 1. Canons . the smoake of our Canons : Wittily : I feare the great Ordinances of the Church , Sep. haue troubled you more with the blow , The thicke smoake of your Canons , especially of such as are planted against the Kingdome of Christ the visible Church , and the administration of it , do both obscure and poyson the ayre , which you all draw in , and wherein you breath . then the smoake : For you tell vs of their Plantation against the Kingdome of Christ : What Kingdome ? The Visible Church : Which is that ? Not the Reformedst peece of ours , whole best are but Goats and Swine : Not the close Nicodemians of your owne Sect amongst vs , which would be loath to be visible : Not forrainers , to them they extend not : None therefore in all the world , but the English Parlour-full at Amsterdam : Can there be any truer Donatisme ? Crie you still out of their poysoning the Ayre : We hold it the best clensed by the batteries of your idle fancies , by ridding you from our Ayre , and by making this your Church inuisible to vs ; smart you thus , till we complaine .

The second is the plague or Leprosie of sinne vnshut vp and vncouered : 2. Sinne vncensured . Wee knowe that sinne is as ill , Sep. as the Diuill can make it , The plaguy-spirituall-leprosie of sinne rising vp in the foreheads of so many thousands in the Church , vnshut vp , vncouered , infects all both persons and things amongst you . Leu. 13. 45. 46. 47. 2. cor. 6 , 17. a most loathsome thing in the eies of God , and his Angels , and Saints : and we grant to our griefe that among so many millions of men , there may be found some thousands of Lepers : Good lawes and censures meete with some , others escape : It is not so much our fault , as our griefe : But that this Leprosie infects all persons , and things , is shamefully ouer-reach't : Plague and Leprosie haue their limits , beyond which , is no contagion ; Certe nullius crimen maculat nescientem . If a man come not neare them , if hee take the winde in an open ayre , they infect not : such is sinne : It can infect none but the guiltie : Those which acte or assent to , Aug. Ep. 48. or bear with it , or detest it not , are in this pollution : But those which can mourne for it , and cannot redresse it , are free from infection : How many foule Lepers spiritually did our Sauiour see in the publique Ayre of the Iewish Church ? wherewith yet he ioyned , and his , not fearing infection so much , as gracing the remnants of their ruinous Church : Were those seuen thousand Israelites whose knees bowed not to Baal , 1. Reg. 19. 18. infected with the Idolatrie of their neighbours ? yet continued they still partes of the same Church .

But this yet exceedes : Not onely all persons , but all thinges ? What ? Our Gospell ? Our heauen , earth , Sea ? Our Bookes ; Coyne , Commodities ? Beholde , you see the same heauen with vs , you haue no Bibles but ours : our Ayre in his circular motion comes to bee yours : the water that washeth our Iland , perhappes washeth your handes : Our vncleane Siluer ( I feare ) maintaines you : Our Commodities ( in parte ) inrich your Land-lords : and yet all things amongst vs infected ? you are content to take some euil from your neighbors .

The third is our blasting Hierarchie , which suffers no good thing , 3. Heirarchy . ( that is no Brownist , Sep. no singular fancy ) ( for what good things haue we but yours ? ) The blasting Hierarchie suffers no good thing to grow , or prosper , but withers all both budde and branch . to grow , or prosper amongst vs , but withers all both budde and branch , would to God the root also : The last , is the daily sacrifice of a seruice-booke : an incense , how euer vnsauorie to you , 4. Seruice-booke . yet such as all Churches in Christendome hold sweete , Sep. and offer vp as fitte for the nostrils of the Almightie ; The daily sacrifice of the seruice-booke which in stead of spirituall prayer sweete as incense , you offer vp morning and euening , smels so strong of the Popes Portuise , as it makes many hundreds amongst your selues stop their noses at it ; and yet you boast of the free and clear ayre of the Gospell wherin you breath . we are not alone thus tainted ; al Christian Churches that are , or haue bin , present the same Censers vnto God : But ours smels strong of the Popes Portuise : See whether this be any better then triuiall cauilling : If either an ill man , or a Diuill shall speake that which is good ; may not a good man vse it ? If a good Angell , or man shall speake that which is euill , is it euer the better for the Deliuerer ? If Sathan himselfe shall say of Christ ; Thou art the sonne of the liuing God , shall I feare to repeate it ? Not the Authour but the matter , in these things is worthie of regard : As Ierome speakes of the poysoned workes of Origen , and other dangerous Treatisours , Good things may be receiued from ill handes ; If the matter of any prayer be Popish , fault it for what it containes , not for whence it came : what say you against vs in this , more then Master Smith ( your stout Anabaptist ) saith of our baptizing of Infants : Patres nostri non solum ante Cyprianum vel Agrippinum , sed postea , saluberrimam consuetudinem tenuerunt , vt quicquid diuinum atque legitimum in aliqua haeresi vel schismate integrum reperirent approbarent potius quam negarent . August . Both of them equally condemned for Antichristian : Still therefore wee boast of the free , and cleare ayre of the Gospell , if it be annoyed with some practicall euils , we may be foule , the Gospel is it selfe , and our profession holy , neither can we complaine of all euils , while we want you .

SECTION . LVI . The iudgement of our owne , and our neighbours of our Church .

THat which followeth is but wordes , a short answere is too much : That all Christendome magnifies the worthinesse of our Church , Sep. in so cleare euidences of their own voyces you cannot denie ; That all Christendome should so magnifie your happinesse ( as you say ) is much , and yet your selues , and the best amongst you , complain so much both in word , and writing , of your miserable condition , vnder the imperious and superstitious impositions of the Prelates , yea and suffer so much also vnder them , as at this day you do for seeking the same Church-gouernment and Ministery , which is in vse in all other Churches saue your owne . Socrat. l. 1. c. 4. Constant. Alex. & Ario. Ac tamet si vos inter vos vic●ssim de re qu●piam minimi momenti dissent●tis ( siquidem neque omnes de omnibus rebus idem sentimus nihilom●nus tan● fi●ri p●terit , vt eximia concordia sincerè inter vos , integr●que s●ru●tur , & vna inter omnes communio & consociatio custodiatur . and now when you see such testimonies abroad ( lest you should say nothing ) you fetch cauils from home : Those men which ( you say ) complaine so much of their miserable condition vnder the Prelates impositions , haue notwithstanding with the same pens and tongues not onely iustified our Church but extold it : you haue found no sharper aduersaries in this verie accusation , for which you malitiously cyte them : How freely , how sully haue they euinced the truth ? yea the happinesse of the Church of England against your false challenges : and yet your forehead dare challenge them for Authors : So hath their moderation opposed some appendances , that they haue both acknowledged and defended the substance with equall vehemence to your opposition : neither doe they suffer ( as you traduce them ) for seeking another Church-gouernement : looke into the Millenaries petition ( the common voyce of that part ) I am deceiued , if ought of their complaints sound that way , much lesse of their sufferings : deformitie in practise is obiected to them , not indeuour of innouation ; That quarrell hath beene long silent , your motion cannot reuiue it : would God you could as much follow those men in moderate and charitable carriage , as you haue out-run them in complaint .

It pleaseth you to deuise vs , Sep. like pictures vpon course Canuasse , The truth is , you are best liked where you are worst knowen . Your next neighbours of Scotland know your Bishops Gouernment so well , as they rather chuse to vndergoe all the miserie , of bonds and banishment , then to partake with you in your happinesse this way , so highly doe they magnifie and applaud the same Which choice I doubt not other Churches also would make , if the same necessitie were laid vpon them . which shew fairest at farthest ; attributing forraine approbation ( which you cannot denie ) to distance , more then to desert . How is it then , that ( besides strange witnesses ) we which looke vpon this face without preiudice , commend it ( God knowes ) without flatterie : we can at once acknowledge her infirmities , and blesse God for her graces : Our neighbours , ( yea our selues ) of Scotland , know our Church so well , that they doe with one consent praise her for one of Gods best daughters ; neither doe the most rigorous amongst them , more dislike our Episcopall Gouernement , then embrace our Church : what fraud is this , to flie from the Church in common , to one circumstance ? wee can honour that noble Church in Scotland , may we not dislike their alienations of Church-liuings ? If one thing offend , doe all displease ? Yet euen this Gouernment , which you would haue them resist to bonds and banishment ( who knowes not ? ) begins to find both fauour and place : what choice other Churches would make , as you doubt not , so you care not : If you regarded their sentence : How durst your reuile her as a false harlot , whom they honour as a deere sister ? If you were more theirs then we , you might vpbraide vs : Now you tell vs what perhaps they would doe , we tell you what they doe , and will doe : Euen with one voyce , blesse God for England , as the most famous and flourishing Church in Christendome : Sep. your handfull onely makes faces , And for your graces , we despise them not nor any good thing amongst you , no more then you doe such graces and good things as are to be found in the Church of Rome , from which you separate notwithstanding . We haue by Gods mercie the pure and right vse of the good gifts and graces of God in Christs Ordinance which you want . Neither the Lords people , nor the holy vessels could make Babylon Syon , though both the one and the other were captiued for a time . Lastly , it is thus written , and we thus aduised . M. Smiths . retort vpon M. Cliston . p. 50 , . and enuies this true glorie ; Who yet ( you say ) despise not our graces , no more then we those of Rome : See how you despise vs while you say , you are free from despight : How malicious is this Comparison , as if we were to you , as Rome to vs : and yet you despise vs more : Wee graunt Rome a true Baptisme , true Visibilitie of a Church , though monstrously corrupted : you giue not vs so much : Thankes be to God , wee care lesse for your censure , then you doe for our Church : We haue by Gods mercy the true and right vse of the word , and Sacraments , and all other essentiall giftes and graces of God ; if there might bee some further helpes in execution , to make these more effectual , we resist not : But those your other imaginary ordinances , as wee haue not , so wee want not : Neither the Chaldeans , nor any Idolatrous enemies could make Sion Babylon , nor the holy vessels prophane ; so as they should cease to be fitte for Gods vse : but they were brought backe at the returne of the captiuitie to Ierusalem : Such were our worshippe , ministery , Sacraments , and those manifold subiects of your cauils , which whiles you disgrace for their former abuse , you call our good euill , and willingly despise our graces .

SECTION . LVII . The issue of Separation .

ALL the sequell of my answerer is meerely sententious : Sep. it is fitter for vs to learne , Where the truth is a gayner , the Lord ( which is truth ) cannot be a looser . Neither is the thankes of ancient fauours lost amongst them , which still presse on towards new mercies . Vnthankfull are they vnto the blessed maiestie of God , and vnfaithfull also , which Inter licet vestrum & non licet nostrum , nutant ac remigant animae Christianorum . Optat contr. Parm. then replie : Where the truth gaines ( say you ) God looseth not ▪ I tell you againe , where God looseth , the truth gaineth not , and where the Church looseth , God ( which indowed her ) cannot but loose : Alas what can the truth either get or saue by such vnkinde quarrels ? Surely suspicion on some handes , on others reiection : for ( as Optatus of his Donatists ) Betwixt our Licet , and your Non licet many poore soules wauer and doubt : neither will settle , because wee agree not : Thankes are not lost , where new fauours are called for , but where olde are denied , while your Posie is : Such as the mother such is the daughter ; where are our olde , our any mercies ? They are vnthankfull , which know what God hath done , and confesse it not : They are vnfaithfull to God and his Deputie , which knowing themselues made to obey , presume to ouer-rule , and vpon their priuate authoritie , obtrude to the Church those ordinances to bee obserued , which neuer had being but in their owne idle speculation .

Your Sequestration and our confusion , Sep. are both of them beneficial ,

knowing the will of their Master do it not , but go on p●esumptuously in disobedience to many the holy ordinances of the Lord , and of his Christ , which they know , and in word also acknowledge , he hath giuen to his Church to be obserued , and not for idle speculation , and disputation without obedience .

It is not by our sequestration , but by your confusion , that Rome and Hell gaines .

where they should not : and as you pretend our confusion for the cause of your Separation ; So is your Separation the true cause of too much trouble , and confusion in the Church : Your odious tale of commixture hath cloyed and surfeited your reader already , and receiued aunswere to satietie : This one dish so oft brought foorth , argues your pouertie : Sep. The visible Church is Gods drag-net ,

Your odious commixture of all sorts of people in the body of your Church , in whose lappe the vilest miscreants are dandled , sucking her brests , as her naturall children , and are be-blest by her ( as hauing right thereunto ) with all her holy things as prayer , sacraments , and other ceremonies , is that which aduantageth hell , in the finall obduration and perdition of the wicked , whom by these meanes you flatter and deceiue . Non enim propter malos boni des●rendi , sed propter bonos mali tolerandi sunt , &c. Sicut tolerau●runt Prophetae &c. Aug. Ep. 48. Bar. ag. Gyff .

Sep. The Romish Prelacie and Priesthood amongst you , with the appurtenances for their maintenance and ministrations are Romes aduantage . Which therefore she challengeth as her owne , and by which shee also still holdes possession amongst you , vnder the hope of regayning her full inheritance at one time or other .

and field , and floore , and Arke , here will be euer at her best , sedge , tares , chaffe , vncleane Creatures : yet is this no pretence for her neglect : The notoriously euill she casts from her brest , and knee , denying them the vse of her prayers , and ( which your leaders mislike ) of her Sacrament ; If diuers through corruption of vnfaithfull officers , escape censure ; yet let not the transgressions of some , redound to the condemnation of the whole Church : In Gods iudgement it shall not , wee care little , if in yours . Wee tell wicked men , they may goe to hell-with the water of Baptisme in their faces , with the Church in their mouthes , we denounce Gods iudgements vnpartially against their sinnes , and them : Thus we flatter , thus wee deceiue , if yet they will needs run to perdition : Perditio tua ex te Israel .

Our Clergie is so Romish as our Baptisme : If therefore Romish , because they came thence , wee haue disproued it : If therefore Romish because they haue beene vsed there , we graunt and iustifie it , That auncient confession of their faith which was famous thorough the world we receiue with them : If they hold one God , one Baptisme , one heauen , one Christ shall we renounce it ? Why should wee not cast off our Christendome and humanitie , because the Romanes had both ? How much Rome can either challenge , or hope to gaine in our Clergie and Ministration is well witnessed by the blood of those Martyrs , eminent in the Prelacie , which in the fresh memories of many was shed for God , against that Harlot : and by the excellent labours of others , both Bishops and Doctors : whose learned pens haue pulled downe more of the wals of Rome , then all the corner-creeping Brownists in the world shall euer be able to doe , while Amsterdam standeth . It is you that furnish these aduersaries with aduantages , Sep. through your wilfull diuisions : And if the Papists take aduantange at our condemnation of you , and separation from you : it concerns you , well to see where the blame is , and there to lay it , least through light , and inconsiderate iudgement , you iustifie the wicked , and condemne the righteous . Take Scilurus his arrowes , single out of the sheafe , the least finger breakes them , while the whole bundle feares no stresse : wee know well where the blame is , our deseruings can be no protection to you : you went from vs , not we from you . Plead not our constraint , you should not haue beene compelled to forsake vs , while Christ is with vs : But who compels you not to call vs brethren ? to denie vs Christians ? your zeale is so farre from iustifying the wicked , that it condemnes the righteous .

SECTION . LIX . The conclusion from the fearefull answere of Separation .

MY last threat , of the easier aunsweres of whoredomes , & adulteries then Separation , you think to skoffe out of countenance . I feare your conscience will not alwayes allow this mirth ; Our Consistories haue spared you ynough : Troub . & excom at Amster . G. Iohns . professes he found better dealing in the B●shops Consistories ; and might haue found better in the Inquisition . let those which haue tryed , say , whether your corrupt Eldership be more safe iudges : If ours imprison iustly , yours excommunicate vniustly ; To be in Custodie is lesse grieuous , then out of the Church : at least , if your censures were worth any thing , but contempt : As Hierom said of the like : It is well that malice hath not so great power as will : Hieron . Cypr. de simplic . praelat . Ad pacis praemium ven●re non polerunt , qui pacem domini discordiae furore ruperunt . you shall one day ( I feare ) finde the Consistorie of heauen more rigorous , if you wash not this wrong with your teares ; That tribunall shall find your confidence , presumption ; your zeale , furie : you are bold , surely more then wise : To proclame , we haue no need of such criers : doubtlesse your head hath made Proclamations long , Ibid. now your hand begins : Inexpiabilis & g●auis culpa discordiae nec passione purgatur . What proclaime yee ? Separation from the Communion , Gouernment , Ministery and worship of the Church of England : Sep what needed it ? Your act might haue saued your voice : Lastly the terr●ble threat you vtter against vs , that euen whoredomes and murders shall abide an easier answere then separation , would certainly fall heauy vpon vs , if this answere were to bee made in your Consistory Courts ; or before any of your Ecclesiasticall iudges ; but because we know , that not Antichrist , but Christ shal be our iudge , we are hold vpon the warrant of his word and testament , ( which being sealed with his blood may not bee altered ) to proclaim to all the world separation from whatsoeuer riseth vp rebelliously , against the scepter of his kingdome , as we are vndoubtedly perswaded , the Communion , gouernment , ministery , and worship of the Church of England doe . what should our eyes and eares be troubled with one bad obiect ?

But why separate you from these ? Iohn Robinson . Because they rise vp rebelliously against the Scepter of Christ : The Scepter of Christ is his word : he holdes it out , we touch and kisse it : What one sentence of it , doe we wilfully oppose ? away with these foolish impieties , you thrust a Reed into your Sauiors hand , & say , Haile King of the Iewes , and will needes perswade vs none but this is his rodde of Iron : Lastly , vpon what warrant ? Of his will and Testament : you may wrong vs ; But how dare you fasten your lies vpon your Redeemer and Iudge ? What clause of his hath bid you separate ? We haue the true Copies . As we hope or desire to be saued , we can find no sentence that soundeth toward the fauour of this your act : Must God be accused of your wilfulnesse ? Before that God and his blessed Angels , and Saints , we feare not to protest that we are vndoubtedly perswaded , that whosoeuer wilfully forsakes the Communion , Gouernement , Ministerie , or worshippe of the Church of England are enemies to the Scepter of Christ , and rebels against his Church and annointed : neither doubt we to say , that the Mastershippe of the Hospitall at Norwich , or a lease from that Citie ( sued for , with repulse ) might haue procured that this separation from the Communion , Gouernement , and worshippe of the Church of England , should not haue beene made by

Iohn Robinson . FINIS .