A suruay of the pretended holy discipline. Contayning the beginninges, successe, parts, proceedings, authority, and doctrine of it: with some of the manifold, and materiall repugnances, varieties and vncertaineties, in that behalfe

CHAP. II. How , by whome , and where , the platforme of Presbytery Discipline , was first deuised , and established .

THe world now a dayes , is set all vpon liberty . Euery man allmost is of their humour , which thought scorne , Numb. 16. that any should bee lifted vp aboue the congregation . The cantoninge of kingdomes , is in many mens mouthes . You shall finde it , a great matter amongst those that haue beene trauailers ; and it is their vsuall discourse , vz. what a notable thinge it is to liue in Venice . There , ( forsooth ) euery gentleman liueth with as great libertie as the Duke himselfe . They haue noe Earles , no Barons , no Noblemen ; of whome their Gentlemen should stand in awe . What is a Nobleman ( say these discoursers ) but a gentleman ▪ And I am as good a gentleman as the best of them . Surely it is very well spoken : and like a gentleman . But whilst you braue so vppon noblemen : doe you know what you doe ▪ Be there not some in the world ( and yet none Anabaptistes ) that will say : what is a gentleman , but a man ▪ And am not I in behauiour as gentle as he ▪ and for my manhood , as good a man as he ▪

A certaine writer for reformation ; hauing ( as it seemeth ) a great dislike of Bishops : Treatise of obedience . compareth the Bishops Rochet to a white smocke , and the Bishop himselfe , to a porter of the Stillyard . This will not dislike some . But reade ( I pray you ) with patience , what he also writeth of noblemen and gentlemen : for that which he saith , toucheth them both alike . Whereof came ( saith he ) this diuision of such personages from others : Ibid. pa. 114. seeing all men came of one man , and one woman ▪ was it for their lusty hawking and hunting ▪ for their nimble dicing , and cunning carding ? for their singing and dauncing ? for their open bragging and swearing ? for their false flyring and flattering ? for their subtill pilling and stealing ? for their cruell polling and pilling &c. No , no : there was no such thing . You would then be glad ( I am sure ) to know what thing it was . Indeed the same author doth not conceale it . In effecte it is ( though it be deliuered in better wordes ) vz. that their rebellion and treason against their gouernors , procured them that prerogatiue with the people . Because ( saith he ) they reuenged and deliuered the oppressed people out of the handes of their gouernours , Ibid. who abused their authoritie , and wickedly , cruelly , and tir annously ruled ouer them ; the people of a gratefull and thankefull minde , gaue them that estimation and honor . We liue in a worlde ( you know ) that crieth out : the firste institution , the first institution : euery thing must be brought to the first institution . The wordes be good , if they be well applied . Iohn Wall , o● Ball in the time of Iacke Cades rebellion , in Rich. 2. daies . But something was amisse in the Priestes application of his text , being such a like saying , amongest a multitude of rebelles : vz: When Adam digged , and Eue spanne , who was then the Gentleman . What is a nobleman , or a gentleman now ( say many in the world of the said Priestes humour , when noblemen and gentlemen will not satisfie their desires ) but an vsurper of such honour , as the people bestowed vpon their auncestors at the first , for defending of them against their gouernours ▪ which honour or prerogatiue their children enioying after them by the negligence or conniuencie ( forsooth ) of the people : hath growen into a tyrannicall superioritie : Whereby they lift themselues aboue the rest of the children of God , to whom indeede the inheritaunce of the world doth equally appertaine ; by the same right , that all true Christians are fellow heires together of the kingdome of heauen . Call they this the bringing of thinges to the first institution ▪ Surely such and the like conceits do tend to nothing , but to bloud and confusion .

The course which was taken in Schwitzerland , and other places in high Almayne ( where the people made hauocke both of their noblemen , and gentlemen ) shall neuer ( whilest I liue ) get my approbation : Let all the Consistorians in Christendome commend it neuer so much , and that vnder pretence of the doctrine of true obedience . Be it that their gouernours , their noblemen , and their gentlemen were become tyrantes : yet ( as Melancthon truely saith of that matter ) : Chroni . par. vlt. excessit medicina modum : the medicine passed measure . He might haue said in mine opinion , excessit medicina malum : the medicine was worse then the disease . But I will not meddle with such kinde of freedome . If the Emperours of Germanie doe thinke it a matter for the glory , and for the strength of their Empire , to haue it ( as it were ) distributed into so many free Citties , so many popular states , and little petty soueraignties : it were a saucie part for me ( as I take it ) to busie my selfe with it . Howbeit that any such doctrine or examples , should be published , or once dreamed of , in such a kingdome as this is : there is no pretence of religion , no shewe of reformation , no platforme of Discipline , although it shoulde come from Geneua , that can sufficiently warrant it . And yet wee finde it to be true by our owne experience in moste places , that such kinde of pretences can do very much : especially if some of Geneua , shall but giue them their credite and good countenance vnto it .

One Franciscus Boniuardus , at maister Caluins request , did write a short description of the citie of Geneua : Munster . wherein he affirmeth that about the yeare 1124. the Bishop of Geneua was the Prince of it : and that after some contention with one Aymo de imperio ciuitatis , for the soueraintie of the Citie : the said Bishop going to the Emperour Fredericke the first : obtinuit vt ille solus Geneuae principatum obtineret Regali iure : obtained that hee alone might enioy the principalitie of Geneua , by a kingly interest , that he should be free from all tributes , and be subiect in temporall causes , but onely to the Emperour . Not much disagreeing from this , is that which Simlerus writeth . Simlerus de repub. Helu . Episcopatus huius vrbis , &c. The Bishopricke of this Citie ( meaning Geneua ) had most large priuileges , and immunities : but notwithstanding the Citizens did carefully conserue the proper liberties , and perpetuall conditions with their Bishops , that they had receaued from their forefathers . It appeareth furthermore by the said Boniuardus , that notwithstanding the Bishops right mentioned , for the principalitie of that Cittie : Munster . yet there was still some contention about it , betwixt the Bishops and the Earles , and Dukes of Sauoy : euen ( sayth hee ) vsque ad nostra tempora : till our times . In respect of which troubles , the Citizens of Geneua , aswell for the assisting of their Bishops right ( I suppose ) , as for the defence of themselues , and their owne priuiledges mentioned : did ioyne themselues in league with the Heluetians , and with them of Berne , and Friburge . By meanes of which league , or howe else it came to passe ( I knowe not ) but it appeareth by Bodinus , Bodinus de repub. pa. 353 that after some time , the Citizens of Geneua , growing wearie of the foresaid troubles : did beginne to professe , that they would not be bound eyther to the lawes of the Duke of Sauoy , or of the Bishop . But ( saith the same Bodinus ) they thought it not safe for them , to attempt any thing , vntill there did arise a quarrell for the principalitie , not onely betwixt the Duke and the Byshop : but likewise betwixt the Bishop , and the people . The contention or dislike betweene the Bishop and the people , grewe heereof ( as I take it ) : for that by the paynes and preaching of Farellus , they beganne to dislike of Poperie , and inclined to a reformation of Religion , as diuerse Citties neere vnto them , and with whome they were in some league , had done . Which inclination of theirs , was altogether misliked , ( ye may be sure ) , by their popish Bishop . Wherevppon , as also in respect of the saide iarres , betweene the Duke and their Bishoppe : the Citizens receiuing some good incouragement diuerse waies ( I doubt not ) , nouandae religionis studium ac reipub . commutandae oblatam occasionem arripuerunt , they tooke vpon them the indeuour of altering religion , and omitted not ( saith Bodine ) the occasion offered , of changing also the estate of their common wealth .

It resteth nowe to be considered , by what meanes ( in part ) they brought their saide purposes to passe . It appeareth by Caluins wordes to Cardinall Sadolet : that if the Byshop woulde haue harkened at the first , to Farellus , for the abolishing of Poperie , they would then , haue been very well content , to haue admitted still of his Episcopall iurisdiction . But ( as I sayd ) hee would not . And then both Farellus , Viretus , and all their fauourers , did set vpon the Bishop , withall maine & might . They said it was not meete , for a Minister to haue so great a liuing . They pronounced him , clara voce furem esse , with a loud voice to be a theefe . The Byshop being at this time ( that I speake of ) in possession of the soueraigntie and ciuile gouernment of that Citie : Caluin to Sadolet . pag. 172 and hauing then in his hands ( as maister Caluin confesseth ) ius gladij & alias ciuilis iurisdictionis partes , the power of life and death and other partes of ciuile iurisdiction : The said Ministers exclaimed against that ciuile authoritie in Bishops : Ibid. they taught it , to be vtterly vnlawfull , for a Byshop , to haue anie such soueraigntie : they said hee was an vsurper , and what not ▪ By which proceedings and doctrine of the ministers , no maruell of the Citizens , acknowledging no right in the Duke of Sauoy ouer them : beganne to think , that then the Bishop by the word of God , hauing none in like maner : the soueraigntie of the citie must needs be in themselues . In this contention therefore , ( which Bodinus speaketh of ) for the principality betwixt the Bishop and the people ( how matters fell out I know not ) but such was the present occasion : that ( as it seemeth ) the Bishop with many of his popish crue , gat him thence . Quo eiecto Geneuates monarchiam in popularem statum commutarunt : Bodinus de repub. pa. 353 who being cast out ( saith Bodinus ) , the Geneuans did chaung theyr monarchy into a popular state . In respect whereof , the said Bodinus : Bodi . meth. pag. 243. doth adde , the cittie of Geneua , vnto those citties of Heluetia : which for the auoyding of the tiranny of their gouernours , haue entered into a confederacy , & shaken them of . Vpon the eiection of the said Bishop , the citizens ( by such aduise as they liked ) ordained a newe forme of popular gouernement : such a one , as they themselues thought meetest for the state of that cittie . A councell was chosen , to consist of two hundred : which councell hath the highest , and a standing authority , sauing that for the making of lawes , for the choosing of their principall magistrates , for decreing of peace or warre ( which were iura magistratis : notes and rightes of soueraignty and regality ) these be reserued to the whole people and multitude of citizens . They ordaine also two other councells : the one of threescore , and the other of fiue and twenty : and likewise also fower Syndicks , their chiefest magistrats , to bee yearely elected , with manye such orders as they thought conuenient , for the better gouernement of the cittie . Whilst they of Geneua were busyed in these affaires , which were necessary for their state : the Bishop with all his shauelinges and adherentes , was not idle I assure my selfe . De. repubHelu . He laboured ( as it seemeth by Simlerus ) a reconciliation with the Duke of Sauoy : and ( by what meanes I know not ) did grow into such a frendship with him : as that hee obteyned of him his assistaunce : meaning to haue recouered , by force and armes , his saide right and authoritie . They of Geneua vnderstanding of this course : did fortifie themselues , Munster Cos. Sleidan lib. 10 Simlerus de rep. Heluit . with the strength of Berne . Insomuch as the Duke and the Bishop , assaultinge the citty anno 1536. they were both of them discomfited . Bernatibus illis auxilium serentibus : they of Berne assisting them of Geneua . And since that time , the citty of Geneua : hath bene ruled by such a kinde of gouernement , as hath briefly bene touched .

I would not haue any man to thinke , that I take vppon me , to censure the doinges of the ciuile state , either of Geneua , or of any other place . Onely I haue bene bolde , to set downe the premises , as I finde them reported by the authors mentioned : because they conteine some such matters , as are necessary to be vnderstood , in some ouuert sort ; in respecte of that , which followeth , concerninge the first institution of the pretended consistoriall discipline . Besides ( propounding to my selfe , throughout this whole booke , to deale with nothinge , whether it bee good or euell , further then as it concerneth the affaires of the Church : ) I doubt not , but that I may presume , without any mans iust offence , to speake my opinion , as touching the Diuinity , which was pretended , by the saide Ministers of Geneua against their Bishop . For in deede I doe dislike it . If such dealinges were simply to be vrged by the worde of God : they might reach further , then would be conuenient . Ineuer thought it agreeable to Diuinity , for ministers to caste of their rulers , at their owne pleasures . M. Caluin writeth wisely to Cardinall Sadolet : but the course , which ( there hee sheweth ) , was helde by the Ministers , ( say what men list , ) cannot be iustifyed . I know one that hath written thus of that matter : D. L. eum principatum , euangelij lux ciuitati restituit , the light of the Gospell , did restore to the Citty , that principality which the Bishop had . But all the learned Diuines in Germany , at their conferences with the Emperour ( about that time ) were of a contrary opinion , as touching the Bishops in those countries , who are greate Princes . And surely it would seeme strange to me : if the Gospell should wrest the sword , out of any ciuile Magistrates hande : let him be of what profession he list .

I doe therefore subscribe to Zanchius iudgemente , for mine owne part , where he sayth : We deny not , that such Bishops , as bee also Princes , besides their Ecclesiasticall authority , haue also their politicke lawes , and secular powers , as other Princes haue : vz. right , in commaundinge in secular matters , right of the sworde , Cap. 25. Aphoris. 21. right of electing , and confirminge of some kinges & Emperours : and right of ordayning , and administringe of other politique affaires : and that they haue right to compell the people their subiects , to performe the duety of their subiection vnto them . And therefore we confesse , that their subiectes ought to obey their ciuile commaundements , ( which may be kept without the breach of Gods law : ) and that not onely for feare , but also for conscience sake . Thus farre Zanchius , whose iudgement in this pointe , will be esteemed of ( I suppose ) hereafter , when all that either is , or can be sayd by any man to the contrary , will fall to the ground , or vanish like smoake . If it be saide that Zanchius writeth truely , but that my allegation of his wordes is altogether impertinent ; for that the Bishops of Geneua , had neuer any setled right in the ciuile gouernement of that citty : I am not the man that will either iustify mine owne discretion , or impugne any thinge , which may bee brought for the ciuile proceedinges of that state , or of any other : so as they carry no false groundes of Diuinity with them , which may prooue daungerous vnto our owne : De auth. mag. in subd . &c. vindic . cont. Tirannos . Hottom . Francog . &c. such as haue bene since published , for the authorizing of subiectes in many cases , to depose their Princes . Christ refused to be a deuider of priuate mens inheritances : and then surely it doth not become me , to be a decider of any titles , to countries , citties , or kingdomes . I pray for all : and will not further meddle with any .

Now it remaineth , that hauing made relation vnto you , of the premises ( as you haue heard ) : I should also acquaint you , more particularly , with the alteration that was made at Geneua , in the order and forme of the gouernemente of the Church . Wherein you shall finde , some greater variety both of actions and pollicy . Beza in vita Calu. M. Beza speaking of the reformation of religion in that citty , sayth : that Christes Gospell was established there , mirabiliter , wonderously . A wonder the common saying is , doth last but nine dayes : but that wonderfull course , which he speaketh of ; will not bee forgotten , I suppose in hast .

As you haue heard , that the Bishop of Geneua was dealt withall , for the principality of that City : so was he vsed as touching his Bishopricke . The Ministers cryed out , that his Ecclesiasticall iurisdiction , was as vnlawfull , as his ciuile . Wherevpon the Bishopricke was dissolued : and that forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement , vtterly abolished , whereby that citty had bene ruled in Church-causes , from the time , that first it receiued the profession of christianity . Together with the ouerthrow of which Bishopricke ; all the orders , constitution , and lawes of the Church : ( which had beene in framing by all the learned men in christendome , euer since the Apostles times ) were at one stroake quite chopte of , and wholy abrogated : vnder pretence ( forsooth ) of the name of cannon lawes , the popes lawes , and I wot not what . Wherein the ministers dealt as wisely in mine opinion : as if some king , succeeding fower or fiue of his predecessors ( whome he hated ) : should therevpon ouerthrow , all the lawes , that eyther they , or any other of his predecessors , had euer made before him .

Maister Caluin being charged by some ( as it seemeth ) with the rashnesse , Calu. de neces . ref . eccl. pa. 64. which was vsed at Geneua in this point ▪ doth excuse it thus in effect : vz. that they deale therein , as men doe with rotten houses : they ouerthrewe all the whole forme , of ecclesiasticall building as once , as it were into a rude heape : out of the which they might the better make choyse , and take of that olde stuffe , as much as liked them , to build withall : againe afterward . Indeede there are many builders in these dayes : of such a kinde of humor . Nothing will content them : but that they build themselues . And therein also they are very inconstant . Now this must downe , now that must vppe ; now this must bee chaunged , and that must bee enlarged ▪ here the workemen mistooke me : this is not in good proportion , away with it : I will haue this square chaunged into a rounde : and this rounde altered into a square . A fitter metaphore could not well haue beene found : to haue shewed the vnstayed minds of such manner of reformers .

But to proceed . The auncient forme of ecclesiasticall gouernement with all the Elders thereof , being thus ouerturned ; as the citezens in the framing of their newe ciuill gouernement , had an especiall eye to the manner of the ciuill gouernement of their neighbour citties and states adioyning : so had both the magistrates and the ministers at the first also great regard of the ecclesiasticall pollicy in the same citties : relying principally vppon their forme of Church-gouernement , and vppon their orders and ceremonyes in that behalfe prouided . But this Church Modell ; was also shortly after wholy misliked . For the ministers perceiued , that ( as they thought ) the ciuill magistrats , had too great authorie giuen vnto them in church-causes : & that they themselues had a great deale too little . Maister Caluin speaking of this manner of reformation : Calu : to Sad : calleth it , but a correcting of the Church . And Beza yeeldeth a reason : Beza in vit. Calu : why Farellus & Viretus contented themselues with such a simple Church-gouernement : vz. in effecte ( to my vnderstanding ) : not that they were ignorant , what insufficiency there was in it : but because in such a hurly burly , and great chaunge of things , they could haue no better ; and afterwardes when they woulde faine haue bettered themselues , the rest of the ministers , that should haue ioyned with them therein , were fearefull to attempt ( so soone ) any new alteration .

The same yeare , that Geneua was assaulted ( vz. 1 5 3 6. ) Maister Caluin came thether : and was there admitted non concionator tantum ( hoc enim primum recusarat ) sed etiam sacrarum liter arum doctor : Ibid. not onely for their preacher ( for he had refused that before ) but also for a doctor of the holy scriptures . In which place , hee was scarcely warme : when like a man of courage ( reiecting all feare ) hee tooke in hand to frame a new platforme for the gouernement of that Church , ( or as Maister Bezaes word is ) ecclesiam componere to compound the Church : being of likelyhood before in his opinion , tanquam dissoluta scopa , as a dissolute Chaos and vndigested bundell . And in very short time , hee did so farre prouaile therein : as that hee caused the cittizens ( being assembled together ) to abiure their former popish gouernement ( as they termed it ) by Bishops : Beza in vit. Calu. and to sweare to a certaine draught of discipline paucis capitibus comprehensam : comprehended ( as Beza saith ) vnder a fewe heades .

What the forme , of this draught was : I finde it not any where mentioned . But whatsoeuer it was : it appeareth that both he , Farellus and Viretus , so vsed themselues in the administration of it : as that the rest of the ministers , and the chiefest of the cittie grew quickly , very weary of it . For through their rough dealing in diuers pointes : especially in opposing themselues against the orders of Berne , Capit. to Farell . epl Cal. 6 ( before that time receiued there ) and particularly for their obstinate refusing to administer the Lordes supper with vnleauened bread ; Beza invit . Cal. according to a resolution giuen to that effecte by a Synode at Lausanna of the ministers of Berne . which resolution , since , Beza calleth iniquissimum decretum : for these and such like causes ( I say ) they were al three of them within nine monethes ( after their setting vppe of their short plat of discipline ) bannished the cittie . The causes before mentioned of this their bannishment , were giuen out thus in generall termes : Tyranni esse voluerunt in liberam ciuitatem : voluerunt nouum pontificatum reuocare . Capit , to Farell epl . Cal. 6. They would haue beene tyrants ouer a free cittie : they would haue recalled a new papacy .

And here beganne the Consistorian humor , ( which raigneth nowe amongst the factious sorte in England ) to shew it selfe : but yet in a more secrete sorte , by their priuate letters one to an other . Their fauourers and partakers , ( whome they lefte behinde them at Geneua ) presently after their departure , entered into faction : and refused to receiue the communion , with vnleauened bread , as it had beene ordered , Beza in vit. Cal: they should doe , by the said Synode at Lausanna . The ministers that remained in the cittie after them : were greatly disgraced . For in that they continued their ministery there , without the newe Discipline : they were said to hold otiosam functionem , Capit. to Farell . epl . Cal. 6. an idle function . The Senate of two hundred , that expelled the said three preachers , Cal. epI. 40 was termed by Caluin , tumultuos a perditorum hominum factio , a tumultuoas faction of rakehells & castaway es . Beza saith : Beza : in vit. Cal. that in that councell , the greater part ouercame the better . But then by the way , they were not all of them , such manner of men , as Caluin reporteth The chiefest magistrates of the cittie , euen the Syndickes , were termed , factionum et discordiarum duces , the ringleaders of factions and dissentions . Cal. epl . 10. They were resembled to Nabucadnezar : and the exiles to Daniell . And generally they gaue it out against all their backe frendes : that they went about to ouerthrowe the Church , and that they had obdurated themselues against the Lord Iesus Christ . These and such like speaches , you must thinke were giuen out then secretly : but since , they are published in printe , for other ministers instructions : which may hereafter receiue any checke about that kinde of discipline .

Hetherto for ought I finde , the pretended discipline had no great successe . I must therfore proceede on forward . These three preachers being thus banished , their friendes at Geneua were maruailous earnest , to haue them thither againe . Many letters were procured from certaine churches and learned men , to the magistrates in that behalfe : as you shall partly perceaue by diuerse epistles set out vnder the title or together with Caluins epistles . Euery one likewise in the Cittie , that held for the discipline , did his best with the people . But Maister Caluin was the man , whom they all of them most desired : for the rest ( being else where placed ) they cared not much .

Vnto these endeuours may be added : some very wise courses taken by Maister Caluin , in the time that he discontinued from Geneua ▪ Cardinall Sadolet hauing written to the Geneuians in dislike of the alteration , both of their state and of the Romish religion , admonishing them to returne to their olde byace : Maister Caluin aunswered him , and iustified as he thought meete their proceedinges therein : to their very good contentment . Also , where some ( & that of his owne friends ) had greatly laboured to discredite , the ministers of that cittie , ( which were lefte , ) to the griefe of the magistrates : & endeuoured to haue brought them vtterly into contempt , for executing their ministerie without the pretended Discipline , &c. Maister Caluin staied that course by writing vnto them , that he doubted not , but that their ministers deliuered vnto them , the chiefe heads of Christian religion , which were necessary to saluation : and that also they ioyned thereunto the right vse of the Sacramentes . And then ( saith he ) where those two pointes are performed , Calu. epist. 17 illic substantia ministery viget : there is the substance of the ministerie : and a lawfull honour and obedience is to be giuen to that Ministery .

Lastly , the mutinie mentioned , which was about refusall , Beza in Vit. Calu. to communicate with vnleauened bread , he likewise appeased : by perswading the authours of it : that it was a matter of indifferencie , for the which they ought not to disquiet the peace of the Church . By which occasions , together with the former sutes mentioned , the Citie ( as I iudge ) hauing conceaued a better opinion of maister Caluin then they had before : and supposing , that if he came againe amongst them , he would vse a great deale more mildnesse , and moderation in his proceedinges then hee had earst done : they were at the last contented , ( after two yeares bannishment and more , ) to recall him vnto them : vz: in the yeare , 1541.

Whilest his friendes were labouring for him , ( as you haue heard : ) Calu. to Viret Epist. 25. he himselfe perceiuing , that hee shoulde returne thither , was still harping to his friendes vppon this string : how he might haue the Citie so bound to the forme of Discipline , which he had in his head , as that afterwardes they might not when they list , Calu. to Farel . Epist. 50. start from it . And therefore as soone as he was come thither : hee imployed his studie that way especially . At the first offering of his paines to the Senate : he told him that the Church there , could not possibly continue , except there were same certaine forme of Church gouernement established . Whereupon the Senate ordered at his request , that he and fiue other of the Ministers should conferre together , about such a forme as they thought meet : and that hauing so done , they should offer the same to the consideration of the said Senate .

Here then you shall see the strength of maister Caluins wit . He wisely saw , that notwithstanding , the Bishops ecclesiasticall authoritie had been vtterly disgraced , and was thereupon reiected , as being ( forsooth ) Popish and tyrannicall : yet it was not good for the Church , that the ministers should bate the citie one ace , of an ecclesiasticall authoritie , aequiualent at the least , to that which their Bishops formerly had enioyed amongest them . Howbeit , he well perceiued withall , that for the bringing of this matter about ; there must be verie good pollicie , and circumspection vsed : or else that it would be a thing impossible , to bring a people , ( hauing gotten their libertie ) into the like or a worse seruitude , then they were in before . His plot therefore ( as I take it ) was , as followeth .

He laboured to perswade the people and the Magistrates : that as there was a ciuile Senate , for the gouernement of the Citie , and the territories thereof , in ciuile causes : so by the word of God , there should be an ecclesiasticall Senate , for the gouernment of the same Citie and territories ( conteining aboue twentie parishes ) in causes ecclesiasticall . And to this purpose he wanted not ( I warrant you ) very many probable reasons . The persons that should beare authoritie in this Senate : ( I nothing doubt ) but that he could haue been very well contented they should haue been all of them ministers : euen as the ciuile gouernment did then wholly consist of ciuile persons . But by reason of the great authoritie , that the preachers had before intituled the ciuile magistrates vnto , for the bannishment of their Bishop , & for their dealing in Church causes ; ( wherewithall they were in some sorte possessed ) hee very wisely considered with Farellus and Viretus , that if they tooke that course , they should finde vnresistable opposition . And therefore they deuised a way , which if they could obtaine , should bee in effect , all one , as if they had been all Ministers : and yet shoulde carrie such an outward shewe , as though there had been , no such matter intended .

And their deuise was : that their ecclesiasticall Senate should consist of twelue Citizens , to be chosen yearely ( not out of the baser sort of the people , but out of the ciuile councels of the Citie , all of them to be states men ) : and but of sixe Ministers , who were to continue for their liues , except there fell out some occasion , to remoue them . With this inuention , after many perswasions vsed , both publickly in the pulpit , and priuately vppon euery occasion : the Cittizens at length were contented . They sawe , there should bee twelue of them continually , ( as any matters should fall out , ) to sixe ministers : which was oddes inough . They imagined , that notwithstanding they yealded to such a platforme , for the satisfiyng of their Ministers importunitie : ( when they sawe that needes they would be some body amongest them : ) yet they should in effect keepe the raines still in their owne handes , and be able to curbe them at their pleasure . Vpon these and what other such like considerations I knowe not : Calu. epist. 54. but after maister Caluins very great paines taken about that matter , insomuch as hee was therewith all almost oppressed , Beza in Vit. Calu. the Cittie at the length was induced , to admit of their platforme , with the lawes and prerogatiues thereunto appertaining . And this was the first time , for ought I finde , that the pretended consistorian Discipline , euer drew breath .

Maister Caluin , hauing thus ( as you haue seene ) preuailed in this attempt : it was not long after , but that the wiser sort of the Citie , perceiued their owne ouersight . For vnder pretence of ecclesiasticall causes , there was nothing done in the Citie , ( which this newe Senate misliked , ) but by one meanes or other , they drewe it vnto their cognizance . They would say that this and that was an offence to the godly : and then forthwith it was a cause for the Consistorie . Besides the maner of their proceedings in such causes , as were brought before them , was altogether misliked . They endeuoured by all their deuises : Cal. to Viret . Epist. 76. to winne the people vnto them . If any of the Magistrates fell into their handes : especially , Calu. Epist. 71 if they had no good opinion of them , they were sure to pay for it . A very rigorous course was held with certaine of the chiefe of that Citie , about their dauncinges ( vpon a certaine time ) priuately in one of their friendes houses : as you may read in the 26. chapter following . And their especiall drift therein , ( besides their affectionate dealing vpon a quarrell towardes one of them , ) was : ( as I take it ) to curry fauour with the multitude . Oh ( saith Caluin ) ( writing how like men both he and his associates had proceeded in this dauncing matter ) exemplum valde proderit &c. Ibidem . the example will do much good . For now it is alreadie a common saying amongest the people , nullam esse spem impunitatis , cum primarijs non parcatur , that there is no hope of impunitie , seeing the chiefe men of the Citie are not spared .

But you will say , howe came it to passe , that the twelue Elders all of them states-men , would suffer such things to be done in that Senate , as should breede such discontentment amongest the Citizens ? You may remember that I tolde you howe maister Caluin in this matter shewed his great wit , and ouerreached the Citizens notably . He was not ignorant , how easy a matter it would proue , for him and his fellow ministers , to ouer-rule twelue simple men , all of them vnlearned , as being either apronmen , artizans , or marchantes . But his chiefest reach was : that he knewe these twelue graund gouernours , woulde certainely remember , that their office was but annuall : and that if they opposed themselues against their ministers , being theyr superiours in office , ( and whose authoritie was still to continue ) they might afterwardes peraduenture be caused to repent it . And in deede according to his good foresight , so it came to passe ; which encreased the cittizens generall discontentement and dislike of that manner of Church-gouernement .

Besides , an other thinge there was , that especially grieued them : and disclosed their want of prouidence . They saw their cittizens of that Senate , not onely ouer-ruled by the said six ministers , but likewise all the ministers so ouertopped by Maister Caluin , as that in effect he was Domine fac totum : & tooke vpon him to doe all in all . Wherevpon there were some that beganne to feare ; least ( as I suppose ) Maister Caluin sought ( by his cunning ) to bring them againe , to the gouernement of one : which they alltogether detested . Thus he himselfe reporteth in effect of this matter : vz. that there was a supplication found , which was meant to haue beene exhibited to the people , at their most generall assembly , wherein these two propositions were contayned : Nihil esse legibus vindicandum , Cal ▪ to Viret . cp. 77. nisi quod rempub . laederet : that nothing was to be punished by lawe , but that which did hurt the common wealth . And the other : periculum esse , ne dum haec vrbs vnius hominis melancholici cerebro obtemperat , excitata seditione , perdat mille ciues : that there was daunger , least , whilest the cittie , obeyed the brayne of one melancholy man , vppon some rebellion raysed , it might ouerthrowe a thousand cittizens .

But it will be said , that Maister Caluin reporteth this as a slaunder . I confesse he doth so . And yet for my part , this I belieue was true : that in effect he ruled there in that Senate as peremptorily , as euer the Byshop of that cittie did before him , by vertue of his ecclesiasticall authoritie . And I am led to iudge so , by his owne wordes . For in the time of his banishment , when he was vrged by sundry ministers , to admit of equall conditions , and to returne to Geneua , for the good of that Church : hee aunswered them partly thus . Ad tantam multitudinem regendam , qui sufficerem ? Cal: to Farell . ep. 23. how should I be able to rule such a multitude ? Againe : desuetudine oblitus sum artis regendi multitudinem : through want of practise , I haue forgotten the art of ruling a multitude : And to Viretus , speaking of his going to Geneua : Cerno quam arduum sit munus ecclesiasticum regere : Cal. to Viret : ep. 25. I perceiue howe hard a matter it is , to mauage an ecclesiasticall function . Againe I am nescio quid factum sit , vt animo incipiam esse inclinatiore , ad capessenda eius gubernacula : I know not how it now commeth to passe , that I am of a more inclininge minde to take the gouernment of that Church vpon me . What doe all these speaches meane ( I pray you , ) but that notwithstanding his pretence of assistantes : yet hee meant so to lay his plot , as that they should all be constrayned , all the sort of them , to daunce after his pipe ?

But howsoeuer these thinges may be interpreted , this is most apparant : that , ( as I sayd ) such were the Consistorian proceedinges , as that both he and his Consistory , did grow into great hatred and malice . Insomuch as writing to his friendes , Cal. ep. 79. he complayneth in this manner . We haue too many , of a hard and vntamed necke , who vpon euery occasion do endeuour , to shake off the yoake : that by their tumultes , they mighte abolish the lawfull order of the Church . Cal. to Viret . ep. 73. There are in that nomber , both olde men , and young men . The youth especially , is here most desperate . And to Viretus : Nisi dominus &c. except the Lorde , doe rebuke the sea and the windes ; I see there are greate stormes toward vs : which they mooue , who ought rather to appease them . Cal. to Viret . ep. 3. I dare not call you hether , for many causes . The chiefest is : for that I am afrayd , how at the length we must giue place vnto them , who will neuer end , vntill they haue ouerthrowne all . Likewise to the same Viretus . Many , are such children , that they are affrayde , at the ridiculous shaking of a head &c. Si desistam , Cal. to Viret . ep. 73. totum consistorium ruat necesse est : if I desist , there is no remedy , but downe falleth the consistorie . Great tumults , were vp amongst them in the cittie : and therefore he altered his former mind touching his not calling of Viretus : and requesteth him most earnestly : ( as beeing more gratious then himselfe ) to come and helpe to appease them . You cannot possibly doe a thing ( sayth he ) that shall be more gratefull vnto me : then if you shal make a good ende of these quarrells : me ad Garamantas relegato , though I be bannished into the farthest partes of the worlde . Cal. to Viret . ep. 82. And in another epistle : Eo prorupit improbitas , vt retineri qualemcunque ecclesiae statum diutius posse ( meo praesertim ministerio ) vix sperem . Impiety hath gotten such a head , that I canne scarsely thinke , there can anye tollerable state of the Church continue here , especially , by my ministery .

These dissentions proceeding thus on for a time : at the last they came to this issue : Cal. ep. 165. vt maior Senatus receptum et bactemus seruatum ecclesiae ordinem repente conuelleret . Nos restitimus : that the greater Senate did sodainely ouerthrowe the order of the Church : which had beene receiued and kept . But we withstood them . An argument of very good subiection . Much trouble would surely haue come of it , but that vpon a sermon ▪ preached by Maister Caluin , and after vppon a motion made by him , and the rest of the ministers to the Senate , order was taken , that for the quieting of all partes , the said sentence of the greater Senate , should be suspended , vntill the state of Geneua had taken the aduise , of foure Heluetian citties , Beza de vit. Caluin : their neighbours and friendes ; touching the pointes in question : vz. about the authoritye of their Consistorie , to suspend men from the communnion , as they sawe cause : which is the verye scepter of that pretended Syon .

When this course was taken : marke I pray you Maister Caluins pollicy . Calu. to the minist ▪ of Tig. ep. 165. He knew ( as in effect he saith ) that none of the magistrates of anye of those fower citties , woulde write any aunswere , to the cittizens letters of Geneua , but by the aduise of their ministers . Wherevpon , whilest the Syndickes with their councells were conferring about their letters to be sent to the foresaid citties , how , and what , they should write ; yea peraduenture , who should endite them : Maister Caluin presently , speedeth a messenger one Budaeus , with his priuate letter vnto his priuate friendes , as to Maister Bullinger , &c. and with other letters also to the rest of the said Ministers ioyntly : of purpose to prepare and pre-occupate their mindes beforehand , against their magistrates should write thither . Now I am come to the very panting or short breathing of the Consistoriall pretended Discipline , whether it shoulde liue or die at Geneua . The daunger it lay in , was exceeding great : but maister Caluin applied all his skill and medicines , for the recouerie of it . Few Phisitions will take such paines for their patientes .

Calu. to Bul. epist. 164. In his said letters , hee omitteth no point of his oratorie faculty . Calu. to the minist. of Zurick epist. 165 The aduersaries of his discipline he painteth out in their collours : as that their Senate was possessed with a lamentable table blindnesse : that they had dealt contumeliously with poore straungers : that they had vsed Farellus very hardly : that diuerse of them were such as shamed not to defend Seruetus the hereticke : and that they were Sathans Ministers that stirred vp these strifes . He indeuoureth to moue all commiseration towardes himselfe and his associates , in respect of their paines and daungers , vndertaken in the behalfe of that Church : as that for seuen yeares together , they had been impugned , by all those that sought to liue riotously , from vnder the yoake : that for the space of foure yeares , nothing had been pretermitted by the wicked , whereby they might by little and little ouerthrowe the state of that Church : and that for the last two yeares , their condition was no better , then if they had liued amongest the professed enemies of the Gospell .

He ascribeth very much vnto the ministers : to whome he writ : which was an especiall meanes to procure their good fauours . As ( when he saith ) now the matter is come to this point , that all our ecclesiasticall orders shall be quashed , nisi istinc afferatur remedium : Ibid. except there come a remedie from you . Againe : you must so deale , as if the state of our Church were in your handes . Againe , nunc extremus actus agitur : now the last act is vpon the stage : and the enemies of the Gospell , are beginning alreadie , to triumph against Christ his doctrine , his ministers , and all his members . Againe : so perswade your selues : that if Sathan be not now bridled by you : habenas ei laxatum iri : he will get the libertie of his bit hereafter at pleasure . And againe , I beseech you brethren , by the name of Christ : to thinke that it is no common matter , that is committed vnto you : but that the consultation to be had , is of the state or very being of our Church . He touched furthermore , all other points : which hee was sure would be especially regarded by them , being themselues ministers : in that ( he saith ) that if their aduersaries get the victorie , the whole authoritie of the ministerie , is not onely gone in Geneua : but that it will be subiect , to euery base rake-bels reproches . Which if it should happen , he telleth them , that he was resolued to depart thence .

Vnto all these artificiall points , thus insisted vppon by him : he addeth another , of no lesse importance , to drawe the said ministers mindes vnto the bent of his bowe . For notwithstanding hee ascribeth so much vnto them , as before hath been shewed : yet he qualifieth all , in such sorte , as that they might suspect , that except they did concurre with his desire , he would hardly for his part , yeald to anie thing that might crosse him .

He writeth vnto them , very moderately , of his consistoriall platforme . He saith , he is not ignoraunt how diuerse learned men , Ibidem . do not thinke that forme of Discipline , that hee writeth for , to be necessary : but yet hee addeth , what his owne opinion is of it , and that he trusteth no man of iudgement will improoue the vse of it , where it is . He also goeth further , and protesteth , that whilest he sustaineth the person , that then he did , ( meaning belike whilest he should be the chiefe pastor at Geneua ) hee would striue to the death , for that forme of Discipline . But yet toward the end , he tempereth all againe in some sorte . For else it had been a ridiculous matter , to haue referred their doubtes to those Cities ; and withall to haue signified vnto them , that thus and thus we are resolued : and if you shall iudge otherwise , we care not for your iudgements : for we will surely sticke to our owne . He therefore thus qualifieth this point , saying , nec morositate nostra fiet , vt loco potius cedamus , quam sententia : we will not bee so wilfull , as that wee minde rather to leaue our places , then our opinions . Meaning ( as I take it ) that seeing they had put their cause into their hands : they would be content to stand to their directions .

You do looke I am sure to know , to what purpose maister Caluin vsed all this Rhetoricke : and what the matter was which hee desired at their handes . He himselfe shall tell you , as he told maister Bullinger . Breuis summa est , &c. The summe thereof briefly is this : that your honourable Senate may giue this aunswere : vz: that the forme of our Discipline , which heretofore we haue followed , is consentanea verbo dei : agreeable to the word of God : deinde nouitatem improbet : and then let them reproue the newsanglenesse of our Citizens . Indeed if he can get that aunswere , it is to the matter : and ( of likelyhood ) will serue his turne . But what do the magistrates of Geneua all this while , you will say ▪ Surely : I tolde you before . As soone as they could : they writ , and sent their letters , to the said foure Cities . Of those that came to Zuricke , maister Bullinger writeth : that they were but short : and so I thinke we may iudge of the rest . The effect of which letters was : Bullinger to Cal. epist. 166 vz: that they of those Cities would resolue them . 1. How excommunication was to be vsed by the worde of God . 2. Whether it might not be vsed by some other meanes , then by a consistorie . 3. What the practise of their Churches was in that point . Vppon the receite of these letters , ( euen as maister Caluin foresaw it would come to passe ) there were appointed in Zuricke foure : the Consull and three Senators , to consult with three of their learned Ministers , what aunswere was meet to be giuen , to the said three questions .

If the magistrates of Geneua , had met with as good an orator , as M. Caluin was : that would haue layd open the qualities and proceedings of the Consistorian faction ; how they intermedled in all the common affayres of the citty : how they vsed to keepe men from the Communion , without yeelding any other reason why they do so , but because soome of the godly bretheren ( forsooth ) were offended with them : how , if a man haue committed any offence , for the which hee is punished , and professeth his harty repentance for the same , yet they will keepe him from the Communion , vntill it please them to say , that he is penitent inough , which they doe , as they affect the party . If in their letters they had infourmed , how vpon any light displeasure , or rash information , their wiues , their children , and seruauntes : were called into the Disciplinarian Consistory , ( a place for criminall persons ) so as thereby , they were infamed : how they affected popularity , wholy , which might endaunger the Magistrates of the Citty , vppon any displeasure conceiued against them : how they of the citty had beene compassed , in the framinge of the platforme of the Consistory : how although there was a pretence of a Senate , yet one man did all , and the rest , were but attendants of his pleasure : how by experience , they found , that theyr Bishop , did neuer tyrannise more ouer them , by his spiritual iurisdiction , then now some one man did : how the autority which had bene taught to belonge vnto them ( beeing ciuile Magistrates , ) was wholy taken from them againe , & nothinge lefte vnto them , but to bee the executioners of their Consistoriall mens pleasures : If they had foresene how likely it was , that M. Caluin , would seeke to discredite them all , to his vttermost , & had therfore signifyed vnto the Magistrates of these foure citties , that there were as honest & religious men in the Cittie of Geneua , that misliked that forme of Church-gouernment , as there were that spake for it : that if in their letters they depraued any , their euill wordes ought not to preiudice the cause , committed vnto them : for that it is their custome , to slaunder all those , that do impugne them : that they for their partes , the magistrates of that Cittie , rested all of them , as fully resolued to continue the preaching of the Gospel amongst them , as euer they were glad at the first to procure & admit it : If they had giuen some round intimation , that they the cittizens were resolued , to haue their Church reformed according to some of the platformes of the Heluetian Churches , and that they would no longer endure to be so ouer-looked and hampered , in their owne free Cittie , by such a pragmaticall and intermedlinge Discipline : If ( I say ) their letters had beene penned after this or some such like sort , as I suppose there was good cause : ( the proceedings of that Consistory being such at that time as since they haue beene in other places ) I doubt not , but that the ministers of those citties , would haue aduised their magistrates : to haue giuen an other kinde of aunswere then they did . For they the saide ministers belieuing Maister Caluins information , that all was true which he had reported vnto them : and considering , what a small matter it was , which hee and the rest of his associates required at their handes , & that the satisfying of them therein , might breake the backs of such a wicked conspiracy , as was pretended to haue beene made euen against Christ himselfe and his Church : and not onely preuente that mischiefe for that time , but procure the establishinge of the Gospell there , for time to come hereafter ; they dealt no otherwise for the sayde aunswere , then I am perswaded all the Bishops that now are in England , ( if then they had liued ) woulde haue done in the like case .

And that was in effect as Maister Caluin wished : sauing , that whereas he woulde haue had them to haue sayde , Bul. to Calu. epist. 166. that the forme of the Geneua discipline was consentanea verbo dei , agreable to the worde of God , they refused to write in that sorte : but were content to say that it did accedere ad verbi dei praescriptum : that is , that it drewe towardes the prescript of gods worde , or looked that way . But you shall heare Maister Bullinger himselfe report the aunswere of their Senate : which was : that they were grieued , theyr Church was so troubled , as that one quarrell and contention did begette another : that they had lately heard of the consistoriall lawes of that Church ( for Caluin had sent such of them as he thought good , vnto the sayde ministers by Budaeus his messenger ) and did acknowledge them to be godly , and to drae towardes the prescript of gods worde : and therefore that the chaunging of them by any innouation , was not to be admitted in their opinions : that it was better , they should be wholy kept , especially in this age when men waxe worse and worse : that although ( say they ) our discipline doth not agree with that of Geneua in all points : yet the same being framed according to the circumstaunces of times , places , and persons , doth not import any ouerthrowe of yours : and that according to their desire of Geneua , they had sent vnto them , the forme of their discipline , not minding ( as they said ) to prescribe any iote of it , to them : for that they deemed their owne at Geneua , to be more meete for them there .

This being the summe of the aunswere agreed vppon by the sayde Senate at Zuricke ; Maister Bullinger presently dispatcheth the same in a priuate letter to Caluin : Bul. to Calu. epist. 166. and not that onely , but he also writ his letters at the same time , to the ministers of Schafhusen and Basill ( two of those citties belike , to the which the deciding of the saide questions was also referred ) signifying what aunswere the magistrates of Zuricke had made : that they likewise there , might concurre with them in their aunsweres for the peace and edification of the Church of Geneua , although ( sayth he ) you haue not the like forme of discipline in your Churches .

After that M. Bullinger had thus dispatched his priuate letters : the Senate then , soone after , sent their saide aunswere to Geneua . Which being receiued , perused , and considered of : there was great muttering in the cittie . The magistrates thereby did finde themselues as it were in a laberinth . The strength of their state , did depend especially ( as I iudge ) vpon the league and frendship , which they had with the sayde fower citties . So as they might not doe any thinge : that shoulde dislike them . And on the other side , remembring the great abuses of their Consistorialls , how they had formerly dealt with them , and tyrannized ouer them ( as they supposed : ) it greatly troubled them , to confirme vnto them , any such authoritie . It seemeth therefore , that they endeuoured to protract the time , as much as they could . And yet because they thought it meet , that some thing should be done vpon the receipt of the sayde aunswere : they caused a kinde of generall reconciliation , by giuing theyr right handes , Calu. to Bul. epist. 171. and an oathe was taken , that none of them , for the time to come , would support any euill causes .

Maister Caluin being discontent with this plausible colour of peace , as perceiuing that thereby the restoring of the Discipline , vnicus pacis custos : the onely preseruer of peace ( as he tearmeth it ) was neglected , and that their Church was still , like Noahs Arke in the floud : he grewe ( after a short time ) to be resolute , and prouoked the magistrates , to giue their answere ; whether they would followe the aduise of the sayd former Cities , or they would not . Whereupon ( as it seemeth ) the matter was put to voyces .

And now see the vpshoote . In illa promiscua collunie suffragijs fuimus superiores , in that confused ofscouring of the whole multitude , Calu. ' to Bul. epist. 207. ( saith maister Caluin ) we had the most voyces . It is very worthy the obseruation , and to bee kept likewise in perpetuall memory : in what honourable presence ( according to maister Caluins own estimation ) by how reuerend a companie of learned fathers , and famous persons , and with what singular grauitie , great wisedome , and mature deliberation , this solemne and glorious forme of the pretended holy Discipline , was reuiued againe and intertained at Geneua . In illa promiscua colluuie suffragijs fuimus superiores . In that disordered dunghill of riffraffe , tagge and ragge , our presbyteriall platforme , hauing moste of their voyces , carried away the bucklers . No doubt a worthie victorie : For if an assembly be called colluuies ( as I take it is ) a maiori parte , of the greater part : what godly man liuing would not then haue flung vp his cappe and reioyced , to haue seene the noble Consistorye triumphing that day , with the applause and approbation of so honourable a company . Men may talke hereafter of the councell of Nice with shame inough : if they shall compare it with this royal assembly . In good earnest , seeing the multitude of all the Citizens of Geneua , was content to gratifie maister Caluin so much : it might haue become him well inough , to haue recompensed their friendships with some better tearmes . But let that go : if the Citizens themselues do take it well at his hands to be so vsed by him : it shall not any way trouble me any further .

When maister Caluin had well considered , how hardly he had obtained his conquest , and how it was not very vnlike , but that some of those , who had before opposed them selues , would still be practising to ouerthrowe his worke againe , if possibly they coulde : hee aduised ( as it should seeme ) with his best and surest friendes , what course was meetest to be thought of , and taken for the preuenting of so notable a mischiefe . And their plot was : howe they might strengthen their saide Colluuies or greater part , for the better continuance of it . The present oportunitie serued their purpose . Whereupon like wise men , they so hammered their matters whilest the Iron was hot : that they procured fiftie of maister Caluins owne nation , all of them meere Frenchmen to be admitted Cittizens at one time in Geneua . Bod. de repu . lib. 2 Calu. 6. Which was a point of very great importance . For ( as I take it ) the people hauing reserued to them selues ( as Bodiue saith ) ius i●be●●dae legis , authoritie to make lawes : the Eldership being set vp by them , could not be ouerthrowne afterwardes without them . And then to haue such an increase of assured friends , that would sticke as fast to maister Caluin , as the skinne did to his forehead : was surely a great matter in so little a towne . And as this pollicie was put in practise for the Citizens : so I coniecture it was also from time to time , as touching the ministers .

None but Frenchmen might rule there in that Consistorie : if maister Caluin could helpe it . When the Magistrates vpon a time would needes haue one Trollietus a Geneuian borne , to bee one of their ministers : heare ( I pray you ) how maister Caluin writeth thereof , to his friend Viretus . Cal. to Viret . epist. 586. Trollietus quidam , quod natione sit Geneuensis &c. One Trollietus , because he is a Geneuian borne , is obtruded vnto vs : in whome there do appeare many signes , which none of vs like of . Aud I see not any thing in him worthy a Minister : nisi quod Simiae amant suos catulos : but that apes loue their whelpes . So as I gesse , that for maister Caluins time : no Apes were fit for his turne , but his owne . Though maister Caluin writ in this sort , ( merrily peraduenture ) to his familiar friend : yet maister Beza was not bound to haue published such a disgrace in print against those , that haue deserued better of him . But this partialitie in the choyse of their ministers ; was not a matter that much offended any ; for ought I find . Marry the other deuise , of making fiftie Frenchmen , Citizens at a clappe : did wonderfully trouble many . It caused a present mutinie in the Citie and a great vprore : the sparks whereof were neuer quenched , as long as maister Caluin liued .

And thus you haue the birth , and confirmation , of the Consistoriall discipline with a deuise for the continuance of it : collected ( for the most part ) out of such Epistles as Beza hath thought meete , to publish , for maister Caluins commendation . If I should haue set them both downe ; as some others haue done : ( who are no Papistes ) you should haue heard another manner of history . But I like not to take thinges , at the worst hand . The trueth was it I sought for . And I would not haue done that neither in this point : but because certaine persons of the consistoriall humour , doe daily vpon euery occasion , still dash vs in the teeth , with the orders of Geneua : the discipline at Geneua : and the Consistorie in Geneua : as though that forme of discipline , had come lately from heauen : with an embassage from God , that all the Churches in the worlde must frame and conforme themselues , to the fashion of Geneua . Which gaue me iust occasion ( in mine opinion ) to search ( as you haue heard ) into the secrets of that manner of Discipline : to knowe indeede , from whence it came , whether it would , who deuised it : when , and how , it was planted at Geneua : the first place that hatched and receaued it .

CHAP. III. By whose instigation , and how , the pretended Discipline of Geneua hath enlarged her iurisdiction .

IT was not long , after that M. Caluin had obtained his desire , ( as you haue heard in the former Chapter , ) for the planting of the platforme of his pretended Discipline in Geneua : when for the better backing of himselfe he procured maister Beza , his especiall friend , ( a man whom he knew to be of a very great courage , wise , learned , and one wholly addicted to applaude to all manner of his procedinges ) to be likewise placed with him there . And then being both together : two such excellent men amongest a company of Artizans and Marchaunts : what might they not compasse and bring to effect ? From the time that maister Caluin came first to Geneua , 1536. and had gotten the allowance of his first draught of Discipline , vz. 1537. hee grew daily more and more into liking with it : especially after the fuller inlargement thereof 1541. when hee was restored againe to his place at Geneua . But most of all , when about the yeare 1554. hee hadde triumphed as it were the third time , by the greater part of the voices of the ignorant multitude , and had also gotten maister Beza his applauder into his company : then we may not maruaile , if that his platforme so trauailed for , seemed glorious vnto him .

In those daies when maister Caluin did first shew himselfe in his writinges against the Papists : he was the onely man of especiall account of all the French nation . Insomuch as all the rest of his countrey men , that began more freely to professe the Gospell : did principally in a manner depend vppon him : especially after he had possession of his great authority in the Presbytery at Geneua . For then by reason of the quiet estate of that Citty : the free accesse and entertainement of such French-men as fledde thither for religion : the want of sufficient men in other places of their owne countrey , to giue aduise and Councell , what was to be done in such distresses of the Church , as then were vsuall , and by reason of the fame , ability , learning and pollicy , both of himselfe and of his assistant Maister Beza : and likewise of their willingnesse or rather desire to intertaine all occasions of busying themselues : the Citty of Geneua became in short time ( for their sakes ) to bee of great estimation in Fraunce . He that shall read maister Caluins and maister Bezaes two bookes of Epistles , and likewise the Commentaries of Fraunce , with diuerse other discourses , about those affaires , and should withall giue any credit either to Heshusius , Baldwinus , Carpentarius or others , men learned all of them , and some of them knowen Protestants : would certainly maruaile to vnderstand into what actions and dealinges they thrust themselues : of warre , of peace , of subiection how farre it extended : of reformation without staying for the Magistrates : of leagues : of impositions , and what not . They writte their Letters , to this state and that state : to this Prince and that Duke : to this king and that Emperour : what their desire was , should be done in such , and such a matter ? Not like the persons either of Newington or Hitchin , ( that I may vse Cartwrights examples of such Episcopall Seas , as he alloweth of ) but rather like two Patriarches at the lest . Generally for Church-matters : they had ingrossed the whole managing of them into their handes . And then you may easely gesse , what fauour the pretended presbyteriall discipline was like to finde with them : it being the onely pretence for all that their authoritie , or whatsoeuer else they tooke vpon them to deale in .

And marke howe the oportunitie serued them . The number of zealous professors in Fraunce daily increased : who exempted themselues from the tyrannous commandementes of their Romish Bishops . They had then no order or certain forme of Church gouernment : how to proceede and behaue themselues in their religious assemblies . And to haue framed it to any forraine platformes : woulde haue stirred vp coales amongest them . Nay it was not possible to haue been compassed , Maister Caluin and Maister Beza sitting at their sterne . So that it came no sooner in question , what maner of ecclesiasticall regiment was meetest for those Churches : but the forme of discipline vsed at Geneua , was presently agreed vpon . From which time you shall finde that the reformation of religion in Fraunce , did wholly proceede after the rules of that kinde of discipline . It was not sufficient to haue the exercise of religion : but the Churches must vindicari in plenam libertatem , be restored to her full libertie , Pet. Carpent . ad Franc. portam . Synodes were held , lawes were made , and decrees were put in execution . What orders then in request : Comment. of France . what ceremonies : what manner of seruice : what kinde of subiection : what way to reforme religion : but after the fashion of Geneua ? Which course of proceedinges together with the rules thereof , diuerse well affected in religion did greatly mislike . Maister Ramus had written a booke against it , P. Carpent . ibid. ( if Carpentarius say truely , and I take him to be an authenticall authour , because the late petitioner alledgeth him for the gouernement of his Elders , ) tearming the fountaine thereof , or the platforme of such a discipline Thalmud Sabaudicum , the Sauoyan Thalmud , and greatly reproouing the obtruding of it , vppon the Churches of Fraunce .

Much more might heere be added , and that out of their owne authentike writers of this disciplinarian canker : how and by what meanes it spred it self in Fraunce , and in some other Countries . But I will passe that ouer , and come to acquaint you , how the same infection hath been transported from those coastes to this side of the seas , amongst vs . If Maister Caluin , but especially maister Beza , could haue been content to haue contained themselues , within the limites either of Geneua or Fraunce , & to haue intermedled & raigned there only : and to haue vrged their platforme and deuise no further : they might the better ( for vs in England ) haue been borne withall . But nowe seeing they haue not so done : who can be offended that I should make mention of it ? to the end , that if they dealt amisse therein , theyr examples and proceedinges might haue the estimation , which indeed they deserue .

I omit how in K. Edwards time , certaine malecontents grew vp in the Church of England ; because sundry matters might not bee ordered as they were at Geneua : maister Caluin hauing written sundry letters into England to some suche like effect . In Queene Maries time , assoone as certaine of our Countreymen were come to Franckforde : they were assaulted with the orders of Geneua . Quarrels arising about the communion booke and forme of the seruice of England in Kinge Edwardes time : there were particulars collected out of it , by Knox , Whittingham , and such as had already tasted of that intoxication , and sent to Geneua to bee censured by M. Caluin . Who vpon the receit of them : returned his answere , concerning the sayde Booke ( compiled & confirmed before by such men , and such an authorititie as he ought to haue reuerenced ) : In Anglicana Liturgia , Epist. to Knox & Whitting ham 200. qualem describitis , multas video fuisse tolerabiles ineptias : I see that in the English forme of seruice , as you describe it , there were many tollerable foolleries . When Knox and Whittingham had gotten this letter , they published it to the Congregation . Which being read , it so wrought in the heartes of many ( sayth the discourser of the troubles at Franckford ) that they were not before so stoute to maintaine all the partes of the Booke of England , Discourset pag. 36. as afterwardes they were bent against it . If you haue Caluins Booke of Epistles , I pray you reade it . Although Beza thought it meete to be published in print : yet shall you finde it , to containe no one point of substance in it able to perswade a childe . So as thereby you may iudge of their giddinesse : who were moued so greatly with it .

When some of the sayd parties : Discours . pa● Whittingham & diuerse others , of a more violent humor , came first to Franckford , they fel also presently into a very especiall liking of the Geneua discipline , as finding it to containe such rules and practices , as did greatly concurre with their owne disposions . In England poperie was restored , and much crueltie vsed , whereby they were constrained for the sauing of their liues , to leaue their Countrye , their liuings , and theyr friendes . In which case a man may easily gesse , how acceptable these pointes were vnto some kinde of humors : vz. that if Bishops and Princes refused to admit of the Gospell : they might be vsed by their subiects , as the Bishop of Geneua was vsed , that is ( deposed , ) and that euerie particular minister with his assistants according to the platforme of that discipline , was himselfe a Bishop , and had as great authoritie within his owne parish , as any Bishop in the world might lawfully challenge : euen to the excommunicating of the best , aswell the Prince as the Pesaunt . And indeede accordingly , these positions ( as afterward it will appere , ) were so pleasing to Whittingham and his consortes , as it had beene a very meane forme of discipline , ( I suppose ) that hauing such principles annexed vnto it , wold at that time haue beene refused by them . Howbeit many there were , and that of the learnedest of those , that then departed the Realme , as Doct. Cox , Doct. Horne , M. Iewell , with sundrie others : who perceauing the trickes of that discipline , Discourse pag. 47. did vtterly dislike it . So as when they came afterwardes to Franckford , they wholy insisted vppon the platforme of England : and in short time obtayning of the Magistrates the vse thereof , they did chose either D. Cox or D. Horne , ( as I gesse ) or some such other as had beene of especiall account in K. Edwards time , to be ( as it were ) their Superintendent .

For the bringing of which matter to passe , one maister Clanbourge a chiefe magistrate in that Citie , hauing shewed them some especiall fauour : complaint was made thereof ( as it seemeth ) to M. Caluin . Whereupon the sayde M. Clanbourg did write to him , ( as it should appeare , ) that he was induced to yeald to such a choyse , the rather because the sayd Superintendent had some such like superior place in England , before he came thither . Vnto the which point , maister Caluin , ( that he might thrust his oare into euerye mans boat , ) to disgrace the sayd platforme of England , as much as lay in him , and to incourage the factious company at Franckforde , ( that were besotted with his pretended discipline , ) did returne this answere : ( If Beza hath set out his letter truely ) : Calu. Epist. 229. I would one point had beene omitted , which was suggested vnto you , I doubt not by that one partie . ( I thinke he meaneth the sayd superintendent . ) For otherwise it would neuer haue come into your cogitation , ( as though he had still kept his whole estate in England , ) to haue established his former ministerie there with you , in a perpetuall possession of the authoritie therof . Peraduenture there is nothinge that from the beginninge , ( his meaninge is , since the Englishemen came thither , ) hath stired vp more contention , or at the leaste displeasure , & so hath kindled strife , then this emulation : in that the greater part did thinke themselues to be thrust from their equall degree , and to bee contumeliously excluded from the common societie : if the Church which had receaued intertainment with you , ( meaning the companie , that had receiued his forme of discipline , before the saide learned men came to Franckford , ) should receaue their lawes from the other parte or side .

Within some short time after this , that , the sayd order of the English Church was established , ( as you haue hard ) at Franckford : diuerse of those men , who had beene earnest for the Geneuian discipline , deuided themselues from that Church , ( as Whittingham , Gilby , Goodman , and others , ) and went to Geneua . Where , to the great discredit of the estate of the Church of England in Kinge Edwardes time : to the greate griefe of such godly men , and afterwardes worthy Martirs , as remayned here in Queene Maries time in England : and to the greate discouragement of sundry weake professors then also in England : they reiected the whole forme of our English reformation : the booke of common praier : our seruice : the order of our sacramentes , and of all thinges els in effect there prescribed : and conformed themselues altogether to the fashions of the Church at Geneua . Where they had not beene longe , when they had sucked and disgested the whole doctrine before mentioned , to be as the appendants necessarily annexed to that forme of newe discipline : and which was afterwardes enlarged by Beza , ( as I take it , ) Hotoman , & others of the disciplinarian humor , in their bookes intituled : De iure magistratuum &c. Vindicia contra tirannos : Franco-gallia . &c. The generall summe of which their allobrogicall food , so much as concerneth this poynt of the disciplinarian reformation : ( that I may omitt their desperate poyntes of deposinge of Princes , and of putting them to death in diuerse cases of resistance against reformation ) was this : that if the soueraine magistrates refused to admitt it : the ministers , the inferior magistrates , the people &c. might set it on foote themselues . Of these and such like arguments , diuerse bookes were allowed of , by the ministers of Geneua : to bee then printed there in English , and to be published for Englande and Scotland , as conteyning such doctrine in them , wherof the worlde might take notice , that as they had practised some parte of it themselues , so they would be ready vpon all occasions to iustifie it .

I haue heard many , greately commende the intertainement , that was giuen in Queene Maries time to Englishmen , at Geneua . And surely the citizens there , are ( in mine opinion ) to be greatly commended and assisted for it , as occasions shall require . But yet ( to speake what I thinke ) it had beene better for this Iland , that neither Englishman nor Scottishman had euer beene harbored or acquainted there , Historie of the Church of Scotland pag: 145. 213. 214. 216. 218. 303. 307. 308. 330. 343. 372. 373. 500. 502. 503. 504. 507. in respect of such disciplinarian new lessons , & consistoriall practises , as they haue brought with them from thence . If euer you meete with the historie of the Church of Scotland , penned by maister Knox , & printed by Vautrouillier : reade the pages quoted here in the margent : likewise peruse the English Chronicles of Scotland ( as they stand corrected by some men of good experience and credite , appointed for that purpose , ) in the places also noted : but especially procure for your perfect instruction , Engl histo. of Scot pa. 433. 446. 448. the Acts of the Parliament helde in Scotland 1584. as they are printed and are abroad in many mens hands : and then tell me whether you be not of my minde , for the fruict of maister Knox his being at Geneua .

I could referre you to some other Bookes : but those shall suffice . For there a a Histo. of the Chu . of Scotl. pag. 211. 213. 214. 216. you shall finde , that the whole course , which hath been held in that country , concerning the points I speake of ; was complotted at Geneua , amongst the ministers there , and Caluin is named . There b b Act of Parliament 1584 you shall finde the forme of the Consistoriall pretended Discipline , being sette vp without publicke consent , ouerthrowen by Act of Parliament , and afterward restored againe , you may see c c Eng. chron. of Scotl. pag. 446. 448. how .

As soone as this saide pretended discipline began to get a head in that Countrey : then againe ( as amongest certaine of the Frenche Ministers , ) no forme of Seruice , or of the administration of the Sacramentes , no orders , nor any thing else , but all must be done , as it was at Geneua . As any doubts did arise amongest them , concerning any Church-causes , though they were but very simple , & such as a student of meane capacity and iudgement , might very easely haue satisfied : yet no man but maister Caluin for his time , Calu. Epist. 283. 285. and afterwards maister Beza , ( as though they had beene such Peters for the Protestants , as the Bishop of Rome pretendeth himselfe to be for all Papists ) was accounted of sufficiency , or able to dissolue them : when they had ouerthrowen the auncient state of theyr Bishops , and set vp the Geneua minion by such means , as you haue heard : and had so farre preuailed therein , as that now they began to please themselues exceedingly . See how Beza , being informed thereof , doth allow of their dealings , & incourageth them to goe forewarde , in such their obedient & right Consistorian courses . He tearmeth their reformation after the Geneua mould , Beza to Knox 1572. Epi. 79 ( if I vnderstand him , ) Caelum in terris situm : a Heauen placed in the earth : or at the least he compareth the force , which had beene vsed about that matter , to the power of God . He saith : that no nation in so few yeares , had abidden more assaultes of Sathan , to haue hindered the saide pretended Discipline : and thanketh God , that Knox is theyr Pilotte to guide that ship . He exhorteth the said Pilot , and his fellow marriners , that seeing they had both pure Religion , and pure Discipline now amongest them , they should keepe them both together , and neuer suffer , ( as though they had beene all of them Princes , ) the authority of Bishops , in any wise to be restored againe .

Afterwarde , there being some new attempt made , ( as it seemeth ) in the behalfe of the Bishops : and ( as I perceiue ) defeated by the pretended reformers , vppon information thereof giuen by one Lawson a minister to Beza : Beza to Lawson 1580. he returneth him an aunswere beginning in this sorte , ( though he were then sicke , ) Beastime : you haue made me an happy man . The same yeare also he writte the discourse of his three kinde of Bishops : vz. of God , of men , and of the Diuell : and sent it vnto a man of great state in that countrey . It hath since beene translated into English by Field ( as I take it ) for our instruction in England . The iudgement of a most reuerende man . Wherein Beza dealeth , ( I wil not say ) like what kinde of Bishop : but rather like some new start-vp Oracle : and dissolueth questions , Pellmell : vz. that all Bishops , ( other then such as haue an equality amongst them , and such as he alloweth and requireth , that euery minister should be ) must of necessity be packing : that the chiefe Elders should be admitted to be present in their Parliaments , ( as the Bishops were , ) to deale in Church-causes , and to aunswere in place of God , if any other matters fell out , wherein the Lordes would be resolued : that Papistes may not to be excommunicated , what sinne soeuer they committe : and that it is Sacriledge , for any lay person , and such a sinne as God will reuenge , to staine his handes with the goodes of the Church . He further prescribeth , the whole course of the church gouernment , for that kingdome to be fashioned after the platforme of Geneua : taking much more vppon him therein , then Eleutherius , the Bishop of Rome would doe , hauing a farre better occasion offered him by the king of Britaine , Lucius . Who after hee had newly receaued the Gospell , mouing the saide Bishop ( in respect of his great fame ) by his Embassadors , to prescribe vnto him some orders for the Churches within his Realme : he returned vnto him , this aunswere in effect : that the King being Christes Vicar , and hauing the Scriptures , he the saide Bishop would not presume to prescribe any thing vnto him , but leaue him , to be directed by them . Such an answer as this , had beene more fitte for a man of Bezaes place , then in such a pope-like manner , to forbid and prescribe lawes to such a kingdome . But I will leaue these and such like Geneuian dealinges , in that part of this Iland : because peraduenture they are desired to be continued there still : and come vnto the Geneuating , for the selfe same platforme of discipline , here at home amongest our selues .

As soone as her maiesty , ( whom Almighty God longe preserue to raigne ouer vs , ) was come to the Crown : word was sent into this Realme from Geneua , Knox exhort . to Eng. pa. 92. in a Booke printed there 1559. that those Princes , that would liue without the yoke of Discipline , ( meaning that Geneuian forme , ) were to be reputed for Gods ennemies : and therefore vnworthy to raigne aboue his people . About the same time , Goodman , Whittingham , Gilby , and some others , returned from Geneua into England . What violent and seditious doctrine they brought home with them , ( at the least they three that are mentioned , ) I leaue to some other oportunity . But for the Geneuian discipline , all their desires were in that point insatiable . They had seene how Caluin and Beza did raign at Geneua , and thought scorne thereuppon to be subiect vnto any . It seemed vnto them a notable matter : If euery one of them might by and by , haue obtained an absolute autority , where they should haue beene placed . Comming from Geneua : they thought they should haue beene admired . But finding themselues therein deceaued , and that their Geneuian motions , were little regarded : it wrought in them a very great discontentment , and made them so wilfull , that nothing would please them , which was not practised in Geneua . So as thereby great contentions were presently stirred vp by them . Their first assault was made against the Communion Book : with the orders & ceremonies that are therein prescribed . In the which quarrels , perceiuing themselues in many respectes ( as I take it ) to be ouermatched : what was their refuge , but ( forsooth ) they must complaine to maister Beza ? Which complaint receaued , Beza Epist. 8. he writte his Letter in their behalfe vnto Doctor Grindall 1566. then Bishop of London . I wish a man would read the Epistles of Leo , sometimes Bishop of Rome , and conferre them with this of Bezaes : to consider , whether tooke more vppon him ; Leo where he might commaund , or Beza , where there was no reason he should at all haue intermedled . But let him goe on . He findeth faults with the manner of apparell , appointed for our Ministers , with the Crosse in Baptisme , with kneeling at the holy Communion , with all ceremonies that carrie with them any signification , and withall the ancient Fathers , applying himselfe altogether to strengthen and incourage his factious old acquaintance , in their froward and peruerse obstinacie . And because his course taken therein , should not bee vnknowen ; with the same minde that he writte this letter , now you see hee hath printed it .

The yeare after 1567. when the sayd malecontents perceiued that notwithstanding Bezaes letter , there was no place giuen vnto their giddie fancies , but that euery daye they were withstood more and more , and that with such sufficient reasons , as ( for mine owne part , ) I thinke , that all the Bezaes in Christendome will neuer be able sufficiently to confute : they beganne to stagger , and knew not what they should do . They could finde no directions in the scriptures , how they might behaue themselues : and therfore they were constrayned to fly againe to Beza . Obserue well I pray you , Beza . epist. 1● what he himselfe writeth hereof . Saepe multumque &c. Being oft and greatly desired of my deerest beloued Brethren of the Churches of England , that in their miserable state , Consilium illis aliquod suggereremus , in quo acquiescere ipsorum conscientiae possent , ( I would giue them some councell , whereupon their consciences might rest , ) diuerse men houlding diuers opinions &c. A long time I differred for diuers waighty reasons so to do : and I professe , that most willingly I would yet haue beene silent , but that I thinke I should greatlye offende , if I should still reiect their so many petitions , and most pitifull mournings . Wee in England may thinke , wee haue had great iewels of these disturbers , and that for all their pretences of great learning , and grauitie , they were indeed of a very shallow iudgement , that could finde nothing to stay their consciences vppon , but what should bee sent to them from M. Beza . It was a fond part for them to write so vnto him , and a very insolent parte for him to take so much vpon him : but in that hee hath published so much to the world in print : ( their childishnes , & his owne pride , I may terme it , ) but I want a word to expresse my conceit .

Hereby it should seeme , that if Beza had taken such a course as might well haue beseemed him : it lay greatly in his power , to haue very much quieted all those present troubles . But that minde was farre from him : and yet it would haue tended a great deale more to his owne credit . For he giueth his sayd deerest beloued Brethren , very vnwise , vnlearned , and vngodly councell : although euer since that time , ( according to their promise ) they haue very grauely builded their consciences vpon it . Beza Epist. 12 And it was this in effect , that if they could not enioy their ministerie , without giuing their consents , to the manner of making of our Ministers by the Bishops , without the voyces of such a Presbiterie , as he and his Schollers do dreame of , without giuing their consents to the vse of the Cap and Surplise , and to the manner of excommunication in the Church of England &c. They should then giue place manifestae violentiae , to manifest violence , and liue as priuate men . Let any man that list read ouer that Epistle also , and then iudge indifferently , by what light aduise , this peeuish opposition hath beene continued amongst vs .

After some time spent in these brables : then they bethought them , to fall more directly in hand , with the Geneuian Discipline . To this purpose certaine persons assembled themselues priuately together in London : ( as I haue beene enformed ) : namely Gilbye , Sampson , Leuer , Field , Wilcox , and I wot not who besides . And then it was agreed-vpon ( as it seemeth ) that an admonition ( which the now L. Archbishop of Canterburie did afterwards confute ) should be compiled , and offred vnto the Parliament approching , Anno. 1572. Against which time , it was also prouided , that Beza should write his letterr , to a great man in this Land , for , and in the behalfe of the chiefe contents therof : vz. for the admitting in England , of the sayd Allobrogicall Discipline . Which office ( you may be sure ) he performed very willingly . Vnderstanding ( sayth he ) of an assembly of the Estate of England , Beza . 1572. Epist. 69. wherein there would bee dealing with matters of Religion , I could not chose , but write vnto you of that matter . And so he proceedeth ; shewing , that all men doe allow of our doctrine , but not of our Discipline . That except , where there is pure doctrine , there be also pure discipline ( meaning his own Geneuian Darling ) : the Churches are litle the better , and that therefore her Maiestie , and her faythfull Councellors should procure the setting vp of this pure Discipline , notwithstanding any difficulties whatsoeuer that might hinder it . The same yeare also 1572. hee writ to the Queenes Maiestie , an Epistle dedicatory , before his annotations vpon the new Testament . In the which , although he doth confesse , that her Highnes hath restored to this Lande the true worship of God : yet he insinuateth that wee want a full instauration of Ecclesiasticall Discipline : that our Temples are not fully repurged : that some high places remayne as yet not abolished : and wisheth that those wantes and blemishes might be supplyed and reformed : meaning ( as I thinke hee would confesse if he were deposed ) that her Maiestie should conforme the present Apostolicall and most auncient estate of the Church of England , vnto that newly deuised , & vnbrideled new-platforme of that demy-Parish of Geneua : as I may well call it by way of comparison . Now you must vnderstand , that as our old English Geneuians did weare out or grew out of date : So there did start vp a new broode in their places . Cartwright and Trauers finding ( as it seemeth ) that itching and stirring humor in themselues , which delighteth altogether in nouelties , they would needes to Geneua . Where in short time they were notably confirmed in that doctrine of contradiction : & returned home , like the rest of our Geneuian Proselites , ten times more wayward then they were before . Which disposition of theirs being knowen to the Crue : who then but these two , after their seuerall returnes thence , to bee the Champions successiuely , for the Allobrogicall Discipline ? Since which times you shall finde little omitted , of those Disciplinarian practises : whereby this Lady their Mistris most indirectly , and by all vnlawfull meanes , hath beene elsewhere aduanced . Their writings ( I speake nowe generally of all our English Factioners , that haue written for this forgerie ) are full of bouldnes , of Sophistications , of falsifications , of peruerse wrestings , of seditious assertions , and of manye such corruptions . They haue sought by all indirect and vnlawfull meanes , to allure the people vnto them : and haue entred into a kind of an association amongst themselues . Neither the Bishop of Geneua , nor the Bishops in Scotland ( for ought I finde ) were euer more Turkifhly handled by Heathenish Libels and most vnchristian calumniations , then our Bishops haue bene , by diuers of these our Geneuating Passauantians . By the like course also , and in the same manner , haue they dealt ( as far as possibly they durst ) with her most excellent Maiestie , with the high Court of Parliament , with the Lordes of her Highnes most honorable Priuy Councell , and with the Iudges & Lawes of the land . The reformation of religion , which almighty God hath wrought amongst vs by her Maiesties meanes , some of them haue tearmed a deformation : and all of them do disgrace and depraue it to their vttermost abilitie , most lewdly and falsly .

Since the time , they haue seen litle hope , that her Maiestie & the other states of this land , would euer giue place to their vnstaied vanities and Phaetonicall presumptions : they haue applied themselues to the practise of the inseparable Disciplinarian adiunct mentioned : vz: that when such states do refuse , and will in no wise be perswaded to embrace and establish within theyr dominions , the pretended Church-Discipline , so liked of at Geneua : the Ministers may draw the people vnto them by all maner of allurementes , and so betwixt them set it vp themselues . And in this course , they haue already farre proceeded : altogether ( as you may perceiue by the saide act of Parliament in Scotland , Anno. 1584. ) after the same maner that the Ministers of Scotland did proceede . They haue had theyr subscriptions , their Synodes of diuerse sortes , Classicall , Prouinciall , and Generall . In those Synodes they haue practised Censures , made lawes of their owne , and disallowed some of those , which the state of this realme hath made . Vnto these and such like their priuate Conuenticles , they haue appropriated the name of the Church : and hauing separated themselues in a sorte , from all those Christians , that fauour not their mistresse , they are become ioined into a new brotherhood of the Allobrogicall Discipline . As there grew some occasion of feare amongst them , that these their Consistorial proceedings , were likely to breake forth , before they were ready and able , by the strength of their assistance to stand to their tackling : consultation was had , and the matter ouerruled , that none of that brotherhood , ( if hee were apprehended ) should in any wise appeach another : but vtterly refuse to detect such dealinges of the godly brethren , as they themselues so greatly liked , and were of opinion to be most honest and iust . He that woulde take the paines to peruse the examinations of Cartwright , and of some others in the Starre-chamber : ( as any may easily do , now that they are published ) should finde all these particulars and many more , then heere I wil speake of , to be most true .

And thus you see the Geneuian Discipline deuised by one man , procured at the first by his comming , great intreaty , and friendship , being then a simple and a poore Gentlewoman , God knoweth , fit peraduenture , in the alteration of a Monarchy into a popular state , to receaue some intertainment : but ( as I say ) now you may plainly see what a Ladie she is growen to be : through the instigations and practises of maister Caluin and Beza , and howe and by what meanes she hath enlarged her Dominions , and set her foot into this Iland , of Britaine .

I could further adde hereunto : how they haue not bin content to keepe themselues within the limites of Geneua , Fraunce , England , and Scotland , dealing as you haue heard : but haue sought to take the verie same course in some other Countries likewise . Maister Beza doubted not ( as hee saith ) omnes principes hortari , to exhort all Princes , to admit of the Sauoyan platforme . Beza de presbyt. pag. 123. And this you shall finde a thing ordinarie , both in maister Caluins and maister Bezaes writings : that as soone , as they haue heard from time to time of any countrey , that hath begunne to abolish Popery : by and by , they haue come vpon them , with most earnest solicitations , and gloses for the contracting of this their gallant Consistorian minion with them . What letters haue been written into Germany , Transiluania , and Polonia , wherein that point alwaies playeth a chiefe part ? One letter written by Beza into Polonia , I cannot chuse but make mention of .

After diuerse attempts and sutes made , in the behalfe of their Discipline , to haue had her placed in Polonia : one Sarnicius writ to Beza , ( as it seemeth ) in this sorte : timetur altera tyrannis : now the Pope is bannished , it is feared heere , that this your platforme of Discipline , woulde proue to be as tirannous a kinde of gouernement , as euer the Popes was . Sar. in . Beza . Epist. 14. Whereunto he aunswereth . Recte quidem : It is well said : sit ergo disciplinae regula verbum Dei . Let the word of God be the rule of Discipline . In effect as though he should haue said : Let our platforme at Geneua be admitted of amongst you : and then your Elders , they will easily see , what they may do , and how farre they may proceed in causes , by the word of God . Or if they cannot : send to Geneua , as other Churches haue done : and whilest I liue , you shal haue such authenticall resolutions , as ( you may be sure ) shall preuent all that danger . And a litle before in the said letter . Scis &c. you know there is one , Ibid. and the selfe same authour of doctrine and Discipline ( meaning that of Geneua . ) Quorsum igitur vnam verbi partem , alter a repudiata reciperemus ? to what purpose therfore should we receaue one part of the word without the other ?

To what purpose shall wee receiue the doctrine of our saluation , by Iesus Christ : except we receaue also the maner of the Discipline vsed at Geneua ? It was no lewder a saying of Pope Boniface ( to my vnderstanding , ) Ex●●au , de maior , & obedient . when he affirmed it a point of the necessitie of saluation : for all men to be subiect to the Bishop of Rome .

If they of Zuricke , Berne , Schafhusin and Basill , the Magistrates and Ministers there , had but suspected , or once but dreamed , that their assisting of maister Caluin to the hauing of his will ouer the Citizens of Geneua , would haue growen to such insolencie : would haue brought forth such pride , such sedition and so great presumption , as that like Pharaoes euill fauored and leane Kyne , the sayd his deuise would haue sought to deuoure all other Churches , their orders , their seruice , and formes of Discipline , much fayrer creatures , and in better liking , then his scragge : I am perswaded , that all the friendship , all the intreaties , deuises and stratagemes : nay all the gold and goods in the world , could neuer haue drawen them vnto it .

But I will end this Chapter . They were no Iosephes , to foresee these mischiefes : or what a dearth of true reformation indeed , both in Fraunce , Germanie , and diuerse other places , the vrging with such boldnesse , and violence , of such a meere fancy , and most apparant forgery , would procure , or did portend . Time hath disclosed it . And Gamaliels Councell hath proued true . The factioners in this folly haue been so long suffered to take their owne swinge : that now they are growne giddie , Acts. 5. and finde not what to stand vppon . It was from men that they sought for : and therefore it beginneth alreadie to come to nought : as by diuerse points following , I trust it shall appeare .

CHAP. IIII. Our English Geneuaters vpon a better inquirie made : are grown to a great vncertaintie touching sondry pointes of the Geneuian platforme .

1. Thes. 5. THe rule of the Apostle , being well vnderstood , is very notable , where hee saith : trie all things , and keepe that which is good . Many thinges haue faire showes : but trie them , and like the apples of Sodome , they fall into dust . In gold ( the chiefest mettall ) there is great sophistication . He that will be easily led : is soone deceaued . To hold a thing for good , before a man haue tried it : ( by such a touchstone as is meete for his calling , ) I hold it great folly . The credit which Popery grew vnto : did partly proceed of such rashnesse . Men were content , hauing a good opinion of their Priestes to be led by them , as it were a Beare by the nose : and without any triall to accept in good part of whatsoeuer they gaue them . And as the people were carried thus away by their owne perswasions of their Priestes : so were the poore Priests themselues ( many of them no doubt ) misse-led through the honourable regard , which they had of their superiors .

It is wonderfull , what time and custome will worke . A man may tell a lye so oft , that forgetting himselfe to be the authour of it : he may thinke he heard it , at the first from some person of credite , and so beleeue it to be true . It may be that the Bishops of Rome , through the continuall flattery of their Parasites , telling them still , they coulde not erre , and that they were the Lordes of the whole world : though at the first , they knew they lyed : yet afterwardes , beginning by little and little to beleeue them , they are now in time come to this , that he who saith otherwise , they will by no meanes endure him : he is become an heretique , and I wot not what . The Bishops also and other great learned men , following the streames as they ranne in their dayes : did grow by degrees to reckon of the Popes , as they found them , in their times , to account of themselues . And thus I suppose , ( or at the least by some such meanes ) that both the Priestes of all sortes , and likewise the people , became in time , to be so drowned in the puddles of Poperie : all of them together from the top to the toe , forgetting the Apostles saide rule , of trying euery thing whatsoeuer , before they held it for good . Which notable point of this Apostocall wisedome being of later yeares fallen into practise , by euery man that feared God : according to the measure of his giftes and as his calling did require : we see it to be true by our owne experience , that euen children now ( in a maner ) are able to discerne the trueth , in sondry thinges , wherein many men of iudgement and good learning were heretofore blinded . And euen in some such like sorte hath it happened in this matter of the Geneua Discipline .

Men haue been carried headlong with it , before they knew well what they did : and all vnder godly pretences . It is a plausible matter with the people , to heare them depraued , that are in authoritie : but especially to vnderstand of anie libertie or power which may appertaine to themselues . Besides when men haue been bitten with abuses , it is an acceptable point , to heare the things themselues which were abused , exclaimed against . For it falleth not vnder euery simple mans cap : to distinguishe well in that matter . Furthermore also it is not vnknowne , to any of iudgment , what the profession of any extraordinary zeale , and as it were , contempt of the world : doth work with the multitude . When they see men go simply in the streetes : looking downward for the most part : wringing their necks awry : shaking their heades , as though they were in some present griefe : lifting vp the white of their eies sometimes , at the sight of some vanitie , as they walke : when they heare them giue great grones : crie out against this sinne , and that sinne , ( not in them their hearers , but in their superiours ) make long praiers , professe a kinde of wilfull pouertie , speaking most earnestly against some mens hauing too much , and some men too litle ( which beateth into the peoples heades a present cogitation of some diuision to be made in time . ) when I say the multitude doth see , and heare such kind of men : they are by and by carried away with a marueilous great conceite and opinion of them : especially when withall they take vpon them to shewe a way or maner of Discipline ; which shal be ( forsooth ) nothing preiudiciall to the people : but rather bring them great libertie , and yet shal be such a way , as shall reforme all thinges amisse , and that in such sorte , as they themselues would eyther wish or desire .

And as many people in this our time haue beene thus beguiled , by a certaine crue of Ministers : so they the Ministers amongst themselues , vpon the like outward shewes , and false pretences , in this point I speake of , ( concerning the pretended holy Discipline ) haue beene greatly misled , one sorte by another : the inferior , by the superior , ( as by Cartwright and some others ) and these superiors here , with vs , by two men especially , maister Caluin , and maister Beza , whilest the first sorte haue wholly depended vpon the second , and the second vppon the third .

Maister Caluin that deuised the said platforme , was surely an excellent man : and so is maister Beza , who since that time hath beene the principall maintainer of it . But yet both of them in their times : haue not wanted the common affections of men . Much trouble there was , before their saide deuise was receaued : which made them afterwardes the fonder of it . We haue a saying , that the Crow thinketh her owne birde the fairest : and so doe men and women ( for the most part ) their owne children . Nature doth therein beare sway with the best . But especially she sheweth her force most , in the fruicts of a mans mind . For as our mindes ought to be more deare vnto vs , then our bodies : so are the fruites of our minds , of greater account with vs , then the fruites of our bodies . Few men that we heare of , will giue their liues for their children : but many wee see , will do it most readily in the maintenance of their opinions . Which thinges considered , I cannot but in some sorte excuse maister Caluin , and maister Beza : in seeking all manner of waies , all shewes , all shiftes , all aduauntages , that possibly they could either finde or deuise : whereby they might iustifie in some sorte the birth and bringing vp of their misconceaued offpring . The chiefest ouersight was in my opinion , that other learned and wise men , doe not well obserue , these manner of naturall and common affections in them : but were carried after them ( as it were with a whirlewind ) to like as they liked , to say as they said , and to doe as they did . If maister Caluin and maister Beza affirmed it : why it was inough .

I haue heard it credibly reported that in a certaine Colledge in Cambridge , when it happeneth that in there disputations , the authority either of Saint Augustine , or of Saint Ambrose , or of Saint Ierome , or of any other of the ancient Fathers : nay the whole consent of them all alltogether is alledged : it is reiected with very great disda●ne : as : what tell you me of Saint Augustine , Saint Ambrose , or of the rest ? I regard them not a rush : were they not men ? Whereas at other time , when it happeneth that a man of an other humor doth aunswere , if it fall out that he beinge pressed with the authority either of Caluin or Beza , shall chance to deny it : you shall see some beginne to smile , in commiseration of such the poore mans simplicity : some grow to be angry in regard of such presumption : and some will depart away , accounting such a kinde of fellowe , not worthy the hearing . Were not this a pretty and pleasaunt Interlude , or Comedy : to behold such Parasites , playing their partes , so Disciplinarian-like ▪ And all these follies and dependances ; that the people haue doted so much after some kinde of Ministers : that the inferior sort of those ministers haue taken all for currant coine , that hath beene paide them by their superiors : and that they the superiors haue beene also so farre ouercaried with the credite of the saide two persons : all these follies ( I say ) did proceed from this fountaine , that neither the people , nor their rash seducers , did in time put the holy Apostles rule in practise : vz. try all thinges , and keepe that which is good . But it is better late then neuer . Since men of all sorts , haue entered more carefully into the triall of all the saide pretences , together with the very substaunce of that their pretended holy platforme , the furious rage of that floud hath beene pretily well diuerted . And the very chiefe Captains themselues , being vrged of necessity a litle to fall on searching : haue found that ( which I feare ) they are sorry for : and are become ( as it seemeth ) like men greatly amased , to be at their wits end . And now to this purpose I will tell you a wonder .

If Cartwright and his adherents were to beginne the course againe , that they haue runne : I am perswaded , they would neuer tread so much as one steppe in it . But nowe they haue engaged their credits , they must shift thinges of , aswell as they can : and where their wards serue them not , beare-of the blowes , that shall fall vppon them , with their heads and shoulders . In the yeare 1572. ( as you haue heard in the former Chapter ) the first admonition was offered to the Parliament , as containing a perfect platforme of the worthy pretended Discipline , to haue beene established within this Realme . Within a yeare or two after , Cartwright taking in hand the defence of that platform : did alter it in some points , especially where it seemed to ascribe too much vnto the people . And then if it bee true which is reported : that one desiring vppon a time conference with him , about these manner of causes ; he answered : what neede you to talke with me ? you may haue my Bookes , they are Est and Amen : I doubt not but he would haue sworne vppon conuenient occasion , that the admonitioners platforme , so qualified by him , was a most perfect patterne for all Churches . Howbeit within a while after , it proued not so . For about the yeare 1583. where before the platfourme of Geneua ( as it was lefte at large in Cartwrigts Bookes ) had beene followed : now there was a particular draught made for England , with a newe forme of common Praier therein prescribed .

The yeare ensuing 1584. the seuen and twentith of her Maiesty , out starteth this Booke , with great glory at the Parliament time : and forthwith the present gouernment of the Church , with all the orders , lawes and ceremonies thereof , was to be cut-off at one blow , and this new booke or platforme must needes be established . But it preuailed not . Shortly after that Parliament , the saide booke and platforme was found amongest themselues , to haue some thing amisse in it . And the correcting of it was referred to Trauerse . A letter of Field to Trauers 1585. Which worke by him performed , came out againe about the yeare 1586. when there was an other Parliament in the nine and twentieth of her maiesties raigne . But it was then ( as I suppose ) seuered from the saide book of Common praier : and become an entire worke of it selfe . And then also at the saide Parliament there wanted not diuerse solicitors , Examinat in the Star-cha - for the admittance of it . Afterwardes a new conference was had againe , about this seconde corrected booke . For still there were some things out of square in it .

In the yeare 1588. at an assembly in Couentry , these doubts , Ibidem . which were growen , were ( as it seemeth ) debated : and so were many other , Cartwright himselfe being present . But which of the saide doubts in their platfourme were then resolued , I find it not . This appeared , that some of them remained , which they were not able to resolue vpon . Ibidem . For although they then concluded , that the platforme it selfe was an essentiall forme of Discipline , necessary for all times : & subscribed vnto the practise of the greatest part of it , without any further expecting the magistrats pleasure : yet in theyr subscriptions , they excepted some fewe points , which were reserued to be discussed , by certaine brethren in an other assembly . Where this assembly was kept , I canuot certainely affirme . Articles annexed to their booke of dis. But it appeareth vppon deposition , that the next yeare after , there was one held in Sainct Iohns Colledge in Cambridge . Where Cartwright being againe present and many moe besides : diuerse imperfections in the saide Booke of Discipline were corrected altered and amended : Maister Barber examined in the Starre . chamber . and there they did not onely perfect the said Booke : but also did then and there ( as the examinate remembred ) voluntarily agree amongest themselues , that so many as would , should subscribe to the saide Booke of Discipline after that time .

Well then , at the last , I trust we haue found out , what they are agreede vppon : and what they will stand vnto . You see there hath beene much plotting amongest them : and it is time ( a man would thinke ) that after such stirres , meetinges , conferences , and Synods made in that behalfe : they should be resolued at the last of the things they desire . But now I come to my wonder , before mentioned : for so I esteeme of it . Cartwright , and the chiefest of those , that haue beene lately in prison , in one of their foresaide examinations in the Starre-chamber , doe plainely auouch it , vppon their oathes : ( and so I belieue them ) that there are some thinges in theyr saide draught of Discipline , wherein as yet they were neuer resolued . What ? Is neither , Geneua , Fraunce , nor Scotland , able to satisfie them ? Haue they sought vnto them for theyr opinions : and doe they disdaine to make them any aunswere ? Or else thinke they scorne to aske councell of any men : but had rather , then they woulde so much discredite themselues , dwell still in their doubts ? Surely I would be very glad to know what doubts these were , wherein as yet , they were neuer resolued . I haue desired diuerse , to haue told me of them : but they would not . Notwithstanding I will tell you , what I gesse , they were ; not at randon ( as they say ) but vppon some good probability . I met by chaunce with a paper , of no mean mans among them , wherein ( as I take it ) some of them ( at the least ) are expressed , and they are these following .

Whether there ought to be Doctors in euery Church ? W. F.

Whether the Doctors may administer the sacraments ?

Whether there ought to be women Deacons in euery reformed Church ?

Whether the Presbitery be not described , too generally , obscurely , and very imperfectly ?

Whether suspension may be proued by the worde of God ?

Whether suspension can be proued to be a censure of the Church ?

Whether the Elders ought not to be perpetuall as the Pastors are ?

Whether men must stand to the sentence of the greater part of the Consistorie ?

Whether mariages and spousals , and things concerning them : doe belong to the ministers ?

Whether there should be sureties in Baptisme ?

Whether there ought to be no abstaining from , or noting of such a one , as for disobedience to the Consistories admonition , is in the way of excommunication ?

Vnto these quaerees , I could adde some other if I list . What if Beza himselfe , beginne to doubt , as concerning his Discipline : or at the least beginne to finde some defectes in it ? What if he desire to be caput Episcoporum : the head of all Bishops within his prouince ? what if hee would haue the presidentship of euery Synode to be a continuall office ? But hereof afterwardes in the chapter . In the meane while , I could wishe with all my heart , that those who are wise , would throughly consider , howe this Church of England , and the state of the whole Realme , her Maiestie , the high Court of Parliament , the present forme of our Ecclesiasticall gouernement with the lawes and orders thereunto appertaining , and generally all her highnesse dutifull and louing subiects haue been vsed , by these so distracted , so presumptuous , and so notorious rash-pates : in that after so many admonitions , supplications , petitions , deprauations , inuections , humble motions , draughts , platformes , demonstrations , and what not ? ( which haue bred alreadie a million , of great inconueniences and mischiefes . ) Now being pressed vpon their othes , they are constrained to acknowledge , that as yet they are not resolued in all pointes what they woulde haue . If the state had been as rashe in their grauntes , as they haue been shamelesse in their demaunds : peraduenture the Realme and Church of England by this time , might haue been in some such like case , as ( if sondry reportes be true ) there be some in the world .

It may be heere obiected peraduenture , that supposing the testimony alleadged for the doubtes mentioned , were sufficient : yet they are but about matters of small importance : whereas in points of substance they doe all concurre and are agreed together . Whether the doubts which I shewed vnto you , be of any importance or not : I leaue it to your consideration . Indeede , if a man may say the truth , without their offence , there is nothing which they holde concerning this Allobrogicall deuise , wherein we do withstand them , that is of any good importance of substance . But for any agreement or resolution in any of the partes of their platforme , whether of substance almost or not of substance , you shall not finde it I assure you amongst them : as in the processe following it wil appeare . And I am of opinion , that they will disagree euery day more and more : vntil by triall of their former rashnesse , they shal be contented to embrace the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement in England , and from the bottome of their heartes thanke almightie God for it .

CHAP. V. With what distraction , vncertaintie , diuersitie of iudgementes , pretence is made , that the Geneua Discipline is of very great antiquitie .

AS I haue said , in the second chapter , if my life lay vppon it , I could not finde , that there was euer in the world , anie such platforme of Discipline , as is now vrged , by the patrones and defenders of it , before maister Caluin deuised it , and with much trouble set it vp , at the last in Geneua . I know it is said nowe a dayes : that it is of a farre greater antiquitie . And if I were not otherwise by reading setled , I might peraduenture be ouercarried that way with their pretences . The Herroldes at armes they say , can do verie much , in a mans pedigree . Though peraduenture his Gentilitie be not of fiftie yeares standing : yet if neede require , William Conquerours time is nothing : they will fetch it from Adam . You shall haue the first finder out , Bathes in England : The Book of the Bathes . so gentilized . And euen suche a like course is taken , for the Geneua Discipline . She must needes be a Lady , of an auncient stocke . And therefore her feed Herroldes do take great paines in her behalfe . Such chopping and changing : such clayming and disclaiming of kinreds : such coating , intercoating & quartering of her armes , with this great personage in that countrey , and with another as great in this countrey : you shall rarely finde ( I am verely perswaded ) in all the auncient recordes and rules of Herrauldry . To leape ouer a thousand and fiue hundred yeares , at the first skippe , ouer almost two thousand yeares at the next , and in a manner to Noahs Arke at the third : is but a small matter with them . There was neuer poore gentlewomans credite more sought to be set foorth : with the smoakie images of her worm-aten auncestors , then hers is . The Geneua platforme to be reckoned so late a deuise , as that maister Caluin should be the first author of it : they cannot abide it .

But I will come to their first skippe : which is in effect , from the yeare aboue mentioned 1541. vnto the Apostles time backward . For as I remember I haue read it in one of their bookes : that in all the auncient fathers , you shall finde a little , but as it were of the ruines of it .

But the ruines of it in all the auncient fathers ? What lucke had they , that the building of so gorgeous a peece of worke , stoode not in their daies , as now it standeth in Geneua , that they might haue seene the bewtie , and the glory of it . If it were so ruinate before the times , wherein the ancient fathers liued : then surely it will followe ( in spite of whosoeuer saith nay ) that it is of greater antiquitie , then all the fathers were of . But I maruaile howe it grewe into such ruine , before their times . For ( to my vnderstanding ) the Apostles times , were next before the time of the auncient fathers . The learned discourser , will help vs , for this plunge , Learned discourse . pag. 7 out of the bryers . The ecclesiasticall offices ( saith hee ) namely of Pastors , Doctors , Gouernours , and Deacons , were exercised in the primatiue and pure Church , vntill the mysterie of iniquities , ( working a way for Antichristes pride and presumption , ) changed Gods ordinance , &c. And when was that ? The mistery of iniquitie began to worke in the Apostles dayes . 2. Thes. 2. Was it then ? Peraduenture hee meaneth , that immediatly after the Apostles times , there was some age , wherin there liued no ancient fathers : and that then this mischiefe was wrought . I would it had pleased him , to haue deuised such a prouiso , in the behalfe of those most notable men : manie of them very godly and holy Martirs . But the discourser was ( as it seemeth ) a plain man : he will lay the fault , where it was : as indeed it is reason , that euery man should beare his owne burden . Heare him therefore againe . Our fathers of olde time , Learned disc. pag. 12. were not content with the simple order instituted by Christ , and established by his Apostles : but for better gouerning of the Church thought good : some offices to adde thereunto , some to take away , some to alter , and change , and in effect to peruert and ouerthrow all christian and Ecclesiasticall pollicy , which was builded vppon the foundation of the Prophetes and Apostles , Iesus Christ being the chiefe corner stone . A strange conceite , that all the auncient fathers , should thus conspire , to thrust Christ out of his kingdome : and to ouerthrowe all Christian pollicy . What ? not a man amongest them , as learned and as godly affected , as either Caluin , Beza , or this discourser ? Not one in those ages that would stand to Christes Discipline ? A pittifull case . But I promise you , for my parte : I rather doubt of the discoursers credite in this point : then that I will thinke , there should be such dishonesty , in the auncient Fathers . Nay I durst certainly sweare it , that if there had beene any such gouernment of Christ in their daies , they would haue beene as carefull , for the continuance of it , as any of the purest platformers in Christendome .

Trauers in his Booke of Ecclesiasticall Discipline , maketh eight degres of the declination of this new pretended regiment : to haue growne before the Councell of Nice : procured ( as he saith ) cunningly by Sathan : Fol. 140. 141. but yet so , that ( as he addeth ) there are euidences to be shewed of sondry partes of it , in the writinges of the auncient Fathers &c , and that also in this age , pag. 103. it is exercised in Fraunce , the low Countries , and in Scotland . pag. 9. All out of square , from the Apostles times : till Geneua was illuminated . Some blinde euidences there may be found , ( he saith ) for sundry parts of that Discipline : whereby a man may conceaue , that there was once such a thing in being . Wel , yet if that were true , the auncient Fathers deserue some little commendation : in that they were content to leaue some scroules or shiuers of it vnto their posterity . To the same purpose also in another place the same party confesseth , that the ordinary offices ( as he tearmeth them ) in the Apostles times , pag. 79. haue beene nowe of many yeares out of vse , either in part , or altogether afore the last restoring of the Gospell in this age . A great leap ( as I think ) from the Apostles time : to this ourage . If I had framed the scope of my second Chapter , after this mans pleasure : I might ( as you see ) haue safely set it downe with Trauerse consent : that from the Apostles times , till maister Caluin was fully placed in Geneua , the now pretended order & forme of Ecclesiasticall Discipline , was not to haue beene found in all the world .

Maister Cartwright , though he say in his first Booke , that the Eldership did most florish in Constantines time , pag. 182. and defendeth the same , pag. 67. in the second part of his 2. reply , ( sauing that he leaueth out the word most ) with such shifting and falshood , as I durst make any learned man iudge of his dealing therein : yet ( I say ) in his Table to the first part of his second reply , and also in the second part therof : he acknowledgeth in effect ( to my vnderstanding ) that of the Elderships declining , there are to be found in the Fathers , but certaine traces and marks , whereby we might come to the knowledge of it : Ibid. pag. 43. and vnderstand that certaine Churches , ( as at Alexandria ) went out of the way . As if he should haue sayd : looke how a man seeketh for a Hare in the snow , and seldome findeth her , till he come to her forme : so you must seeke , for the Eldership ( as now it is vrged ) in the auncient Fathers : still pricking after it : till hauing runne past all them , you come to the forme of it , in the Apostles times . Or , as if he had said : the best vse that a man can haue , eyther of the auncient fathers , or of the Ecclesiasticall writers is this , concerning the Geneuian Discipline : that a man by them may learne , when men goe out of their right way , but how to get in againe , when we are once out : if you wil haue any direction for that point : you must either goe to Geneua , or to him , or to some of his fellows . There goeth the Hare away : for the Fathers cannot helpe you .

But belieue me , such is my dulnes , as I doe not wel discerne : how these words of Cartwrights will stand well together , with those of the Elderships flourishing in Constantines time : seeing now in the auncient Fathers , we haue so little of it : vz. onely as it were some few markes , traces or footesteps of a thing which had beene , and was gone before their times . For as concerning the state of the Church in Constantines time , there are whole Cart-loads of most pregnant euidences , in the auncient Fathers of it : & yet but traces ( as he saith ) or empty steps in them , for his Eldership . In effect as if he had saide , the Geneua Discipline flourished most when it was not . One that hath sent vs , a printed Book out of Scotland , taking vppon him to know belike , the mindes of all the Scottishe Ministers , that seeke for the pretended Discipline , as concerning the time , how long they account it , since it was in any good reparation , saith plainely : ( not as Cartwright affirmeth , that it flourished most in Constantines time ) but thus : we must needs confesse in deede , that this gouernement of the Church fell to decaye long before the Councell of Nice . Disco . against R.B. Ser. p. 21. But yet one step further , after maister Cartwrights dubling : where speaking in his second booke of the corruption , ( as he tearmeth it ) that one Bishop had a preheminence giuen him aboue other ministers ( which he cannot deny to haue been an ordinance in Alexandria from Saint Marks time &c. ) he saith : from the first day , wherein this deuise was established , corruption grew in the Church &c. Lib. 2. pa. 569 And the first resistance by any setled Church against that corruption , was by those that abolished that deuise of man , and receaued the order in the Apostles times , touchinge the equality of Ministers : as the Bohemians , Merindols , the Churches in Germany , and Geneua . See , what carieers are here . From Geneua to the Apostles times ; and thence backe againe to Geneua at a leape . From Saint Markes time , till the time here limited : the pretended Presbitery with all the complements thereof ( as nowe it is vrged ) hath lyen alla-mort . No one setled Church , ( that is , in Cartwrightes language , ) no one particular parish in all the world , for a 1500. yeares , did euer account it vnlawfull for a Bishop to haue authority aboue other Ministers . Or thus : there hath not bin vpon the face of the earth , within the space of a thou sand & fiue hundred yeares , so much as in any one parish , such an equality amongest the Ministers of the worde of God , as is now pretended to be in the Presbitery at Geneua : and so consequently in all that tyme not suche a Presbitery . Or thus : within the compasse of the Heauens , there hath not beene one Church for aboue 1500 - yeares : that euer dealt so with Bishops , as of late they haue beene dealt withall , especially in Geneua , and in some other such places as haue followed therein the example of that Citty .

Well hitherto then you see , that since we came from Geneua : vz: the yeare 1541. the men themselues that talke so much of their Geneua platforme : cannot finde it flourishing , in the daies of all the auncient fathers , nor in all the world for the space of aboue 1500. yeares . The fathers , ( alas ) some of them were but simple men : some were ambitious , and some were ignoraunt . They poore men had small experience : and lesse pollicie . They wanted iudgement , and zeale : either to discerne , or to keepe in her virginitie , this gallaunt Dalila . They chopped and chaunged , the institution of Christ at their pleasure . Any examples that shall be fet from them : are very dangerous . They were but men . But if you will leape ouer all them , and come to Geneua : there you shall finde wise men , learned men , humble men , zealous men , nay rather Angelles , then men : there you shall see the glorious rankes of Elders , sitting vppon their thrones : the worshipfull company of Deacons , attending vpon the contributions , the well Disciplined multitude , bringing in the price of their lands and goods , and powring all downe at the Deacons feete : there Christ carrieth hys owne scepter , in Bezaes hand : there this pretended holy Discipline , so disgraced by the fathers , so corrupted and so defaced : there she raigneth , there shee flourisheth , and there she is magnified . The authour of a briefe discourse of trobles in Germany . pa. 49. The Church of Geneua ( saith a good fellow ) is the purest reformed Church ( forsooth ) in Christendome . Againe , Geneua is the chiefest place of true comfort in Earth . Now , what is here said of Geneua , and her Ministers : except you extend it , to all other Churches and Ministers , that follow the Geneua platforme : they will be angry with you , and thinke themselues ( as I suppose ) to be very greatly disgraced .

But I will leaue them clawing one of another , and come to the Apostles times : to see if the Geneua Church-gouernment , may be found out amongest them . For either there , or no where . The Apostle Saint Iohn liued much longer then any of the rest of the Apostles did . Saint Ierome saith that he liued after Christes passion , threescore & eight yeares . So as the Apostles times , after the largest accompt , are not further to be extended . Now ( as Baronius collecteth out of Eusebius ) Saint Marke was Bishop of Alexandria about 19. yeares : and died about the thirtith yeare after Christes ascention . So as Saint Iohn out-liued Saint Marke , some 38. yeares . After this reckoning , if the Church of Alexandria should haue departed from Christes institution , and so cleane haue disgraced the glory of this fained Eldership , when there was a Bishop made there ; according to Cartwrightes assertion : then before wee can finde , the Geneua platforme , in such perfection as it is in that Citie : we must cut of the said 19. yeares , ( wherein Saint Marke had departed so grossely from Christes ordinance ) from the before mentioned 68. yeares , ( the full extent of the apostles time : ) which being done , you haue but eleuen yeares , wherein there is any hope for the pretended puritie , and practise of the Geneua Discipline , to shadow or shrowd her selfe .

Yea , but where Saint Ierome saith , that there were Bishops in Alexandria , Lib. 1. pa. 107. from Saint Markes time , &c. Cartwright hath this shift : vz: that the wordes from Saint Marks time may be taken exclusiuely , to shut out Saint Marke . Whereby to saue Saint Markes credite , that an Euangelist should not be thought , to haue broken the necke of Christes gouernement : he woulde haue this great defection , to haue been presently after Saint Markes time : and so hee excludeth Saint Marke ( after the Geneua fashion ) quite and cleane out of his Bishopricke : and will needes suppose , that hee was neuer Bishop , contrary to Saint Ieromes expresse wordes in sondrie places , and contrarie to the full consent and agreement of all the auncient fathers , and of all the ecclesiasticall histories . But be it , as hee would haue it : yet let the reckoning be newly cast vp againe , and it falleth out , that this supposed departing from Christes institution , was about thirtie and eight yeares , before S. Iohn died . Which standeth hardly with the reputation of the Apostles times in my opinion . But that , is no great matter . We know ( saith the authour of the foresaide booke , that was sent vs from Scotland ) Diotrephes to haue been in the Church , Page . 21. euen in the Apostles times : and we are assured , he could neuer be gotten out of it , since the first houre , that he set his footing therein . And therefore we cannot greatly maruaile , though euen in their time , there had been a diuerse gouernment from this of the Lordes appointment , which we labour for . For euen in the Apostles times the mistery of iniquitte beganne to worke . And what ? will they say of Saint Iohn the Apostle , and of all the rest of them , that out-liued Saint Marke : as they haue done of all the auncient fathers ? was there so small intelligence , amongst those most prouident and wise holy men : that there could be so notorious a defection in Alexandria , so famous a Citie , and they neuer to heare of it ? Or shall we thinke , that they heard of it , and conspired together , to ouerthrow Christes institution ? It may be said , that peraduenture , they heard of it , and reproued it : but could not reforme it . Very well . But where be then their admonitions , petitions , supplications , and libels against it ? Where be their suspensions , excommunications and giuings ouer to Sathan ? Not a word of that abuse , in Saint Iohns Gospell , written after the supposed defection ? but especially could he haue pretermitted such a high point : in the booke of his Reuelations ? Or had he so many Reuelations of other matters , of lesse importance ( forsooth ) ; and was such an ouerthrowe of Christes kingdome , kept from him ? The Disciplinarian shiftes in this case , ( to make the best of them ) can be but slaunderous and desperate .

But to graunt ( to all of them ) the acceptation of the Apostles times , after the largest accompt : there is ( surely ) nothing lesse to be found in those times , then the Geneua platforme . For then as particular congregations professed the Gospell : you should haue found a Priest , or minister of the worde and Sacramentes , Tit. 1.5 . 2. Tim. sub . besides the iudgement of all the aun-cient fathers . Tit. 1.5 . placed in them . In Citties , where there were diuerse such congregations , or wherevnto sondry congregations of the country did appertaine : then you shoulde haue found some Timothy a Bishop to gouerne them . After that diuerse Citties had receaued the Gospell : or some whole Countrey : it was not long , but some Titus was placed as Archbishop ouer them . The twelue Apostles were in those times as twelue Patriarchs , for all the world : Beza annot. Act. 1.2 . who planted , directed , visited , commaunded , and appointed the foresaid Church gouernours : and what else they thought meet , for the benefit of the church . If I were presently to leaue this life , and should speak what I thought of the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement , at this time in the Church of England : I would take it vppon my soule , ( so farre as my iudgement serueth me ) that it is much more Apostolicall , then any other forme of gouernment , that I know in any other reformed Churche in the world . As for these men , that talke so much of the Apostles times : they are indeede but brablers . Their deuised regiment , hath not any resemblaunce at all , of that : which was in the Apostles times . They haue peruerted in deede the true meaning of certaine places , both in the scriptures and in the auncient fathers , for a shew to serue their turnes , ( as after it shall appeare ) : and other proofes from those times , they haue not any .

But you will say : this is denied . It is so : and of that else-where . Howbeit in the meane while , that cannot hinder my purpose : to search out , the pretended antiquity of it . For it is confessed by them ; that the Apostles practised no other form of Ecclesiasticall gouernment in their times ; then Christ himselfe , in his time did ordaine , and assigne vnto them , to be practised afterwards . And what forme was that ? Forsooth ( they say ) it was the very same forme of Church regiment , that was amongest the Iewes : and that Christ , when he said , Dic Ecclesiae , tell the Church , did translate the same , ( being called Sanedrim , Councell or Senate ) into the Church : to be the onely lawfull gouernment thereof , vnto the end of the world . So as here then we must fetch another friske about : to search for the antiquity of the Iewish Senate .

Maister Caluin , after hee had deuised the Geneua platforme , and leapt ouer more then a thousand and fiue hundred yeares for the strengthning of it , by those wordes of Christ , tell the Church : vppon occasion , he further saith : that as farre as his auncient records will serue him , the foresaide Iewish Sanedrim , was deuised by the Iewes , after theyr returne out of captiuity : which was vppon the pointe of fiue hundred yeares before Christ : Calu. in Mat. 18. Scimus &c. wee knowe that from the time , that the Iewes returned out of the captiuitye of Babilon , the censure of manners and of doctrine , was committed , to a chosen Counsell , which they called Sanedrim : in Greeke , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . Hoc legitimum fuit , Deoque probatum regimen , &c. This was a lawfull regiment , and allowed of God . And againe , to cutte of all childishe cauilles , how to shift this place : ( as that Caluin saith not , that it was then first instituted ) : the sam e Caluin speaketh hereof more plainely : where intreating of the seuenty Elders , Numbers 2. that were chosen to assist Moyses , he hath these wordes : Certum quidem est . &c. it is very certaine that when the Iewes were returned from the captiuity of Babylon : because it was not lawfull for them to create a king , they did imitate this example in erecting of their Sanedrim . Here is then the time , as plainely set down again , as needeth : vz. after the Captiuity : the cause why they ordained it : vz. because they might haue no King : and the patterne they did imitate : vz. Moyses choosing of seuenty Elders , to assist him , in his gouernment .

But all this will not yet serue the turne . For besides many other exceptions , which are taken to Maister Caluins extraction of the Iewes Sanedrim , out of Christs wordes , tell the Church : this is one : that if they will needes inforce such a gouernment vppon the Church , as was amongst the Iewes , : then they meane belike , to wrest from the Prince , the ciuile sword ; and to deale themselues in ciuile causes , by their owne authority , which they haue so much condemned in others , ( though they meddle not otherwise with them , then by the Princes appointment ) : for that the Iewes-sayd gouernment or Sanedrim , had to doe as well in ciuile causes , as in any other that were Ecclesiastical . Their aunswere to this exception is , that in deede the gouernement they speake-of , had to deale in Christs time , with ciuile causes , Beza de ex . com . pag. 106 107. 108. &c Annot. Mar. 52. de facto , but not de iure : and that the Priests , Iudaicis rebus confusis , through their pride and ambition , had craftily and corruptly , procured such vnlawfull authority vnto themselues : to the defacing and hinderaunce of the Lordes institution , Bez. ser. cont. Erast. fol. 37 by Moyses at the first . See how they carry vs , from post to piller . Maister Caluin is no body with Beza . Now we must yet further backeward , vz. from the restitution of the Iewes out of Babilon ; to Moyses his time : almost a thousand and fiue hundred yeares . Surely maister Caluin , should haue been as well acquainted with Moyses doings , as Beza is : for that he hath written Commentaries , vppon all his fiue Bookes : which Beza hath not . If Caluin in sifting the Text , so painefully as he hath done , cold finde no such matter in Moyses , as Beza pretendeth : it doth greatly preiudice , ( in my opinion ) his lighter conceite . Beza cont. Erast . fol. 37. But heare his wordes . We must omnia reuocare ad institutionem Domini per Mosem loquentis , vt quid iure factum sit intelligamus : Call euery thing to the institution of the Lorde , speaking by Moyses , if we will haue a true vnderstanding of this gouernement , and of the right authority thereof .

Very well . Here then wee must haue a newe issue . We must set vp ( as I said ) the Church-gouernement , which the Apostles practised : the Apostles practised the gouernement that Christ appointed : Christ appointed the Iewes Sanedrim , to be in euery parish : the Iewes Sanedrim was corrupted : and therefore we are now sent from Geneua , to Moses : to vnderstand what he wil say vnto vs of this matter . Was there euer any forme of gouernement : that hath had so euill fortune ? A gouernement so long since ordayned , not to continue for the time of the law onely , but euen vnto the worldes end : and neuer to be in such vse , as it ought to haue been , except it were for some eleuen , or some 38. yeares , ( and not that neyther , ) vntill this our age , that Geneua hath refined it ? Miranda canunt , sed non credenda poëtae . They tell vs wonders .

But because , wee must be carried so farre : let vs see indeede , the institution of it . I trust that point will be made most manifest vnto vs . Therefore I would desire to know , where the Lord did institute this their ecclesiasticall Senate ? The effect of Bezaes aunswere ( if I haue iudgement to gather it ) is this . Lib. de presb . pag. 103. Iehosophat appointed such a kinde of Senate in his time : Mosis proculdubio praescriptum sequutus , following ( proculdubio ) without doubt , the prescript of Moses . And where learned Iehosophat that prescript ? Had he it out of Moses written bookes , or by tradition ? what ? must the beginning of this , so singular a regiment , proceed from a tradition ? But it may be saide , that although it cannot bee shewed in Moses , where or when it was instituted : yet you shall finde in the tenth of Leutticus , the iurisdiction of it plainly set forth : Beza contra . Erast. which argueth manifestly , that there was such a regiment , before that time , instituted by Moses . It is well said . Let vs then see the place . The wordes are these . And the Lord spake to Moses , saying : thou shalt not drinke wine nor strong drinke , thou nor thy sonnes with thee , when yee come into the tabernacle of the congregation , Leuit. 10. ver. 8.9.10.11 . &c: that ye may put difference , betweene the holy and the vnholy , and betweene the cleane , and the vncleane , and that ye may teach the children of Israell , all the statutes which the Lord hath commaunded them , by the hand of Moses . Beza de presbyt. 104. Here ( saith maister Beza ) Synedrij ecclesiastici iurisdictio manifestissimis verbis a ciuili distinguitur : the iurisdiction of the ecclesiastical Senate is most plainly distinguished from the ciuile . And againe : Dico his paucis verbis declarari , quaecunque tunc erant verè 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 nempe inter sanctum & prophanum : inter mundum & immundum discernere , & legem domini docere : ac proinde iudicare de controuersijs ob eas causas exortis . I doe affirme it , that in these fewe wordes are set downe , what causes soeuer were in those daies rightly accompted spirituall : that is to say , to discerne betweene the holy and vnholy , the cleane and the vncleane , and to teach the law of the Lord .

Of this exposition in another place . We are yet dealing with the pedigree of this gouernment . Heereunto therefore this is obiected . Let this interpretation go a while as currant : yet heere is no mention of any other , to exercise this iurisdiction , but onely of Aaron and his two sonnes . Where are then their gouerning Elders ? What is become of them ? How chaunceth it , that they are not mentioned ? To this maister Beza , De presbit . pag 102. writing of his ecclesiasticall regiment , sayth . Erant Leuitae in Synagogis , penes quos adhibitis , vt probabile est , aliquibus illustribus ciuibus , erat spiritualis administratio . There were Leuites in euery Synagogue , who hauing ioyned in commission with them , certaine chiefe Citizens , ( as it is probable ) had the administration of all spirituall causes . And least you should thinke , that maister Beza his probabile est , were no good warrant , to build so great a matter vppon : you shall heare what accompt it carrieth in Geneua .

There came out from thence not long agone , a booke : translated since into English , and printed in Scotland : tearmed , & so interpreted , Propositions and Principles of Diuinitie . Amongest the which principles ( in my latine booke ) these are three : vz: It appeareth in Moses booke , that as Moses with his 70. Cap. 86. did exercise his ciuile iurisdiction : so Aaron with his assistants , priestes and Leuites , had chiefe authoritie in the ecclesiasticall : 2. And furthermore , there were amongest the Iews certain men , whom they called capita patrum , the heads of the fathers , &c. quos verisimile est fuisse etiam Synedrij ecclesiastici partes , &c. who were parts ( it is likely ) of the ecclesiastical Councell . 3. Constat ergo in ecclesia Iudaica fuisse huic ordini ecclesiastico constitutos rectores . It is manifest therfore that in the churches of the Iewes , these men were assigned , and ioyned to the said Priestes , and Leuites , to be rulers and gouernors . Verisimile est : it is likely : constat ergo : therefore it is manifest . As though a man should reason thus . It is probable , that these men that dare thus abuse the worlde , haue made a shipwracke of their consciences : therefore it is manifest , that they haue done so . Vnto how many kinges , princes , Countries , and states , hath maister Beza written , for the aduauncement of this his pretended gouernement ? What petitions , supplications , demonstrations , motions , admonitions , discourses , complaints ( and I know not what ) haue been published amongest vs , in England to the same effect ? And is all now come to this point , probabile est ? Can Beza himselfe finde no other ground , for his Elders ? Doth it depend but vpon likelihoodes and probabilities , by your owne confessions : whether almightie God did euer as yet institute any such gouernment or not ?

But to passe by Beza with his probabile est : and to come to maister Cartwright , another manner of fellow . He ( it seemeth ) doth account maister Beza , to be , but a simple man in respect of himselfe : in that he deemed the Eldership to be of no longer continuance , then since Moyses time . T.C. lib. 3. pa. 40. This gouernement ( saith he , by the Eldership ) was taken from the gouernement of the people of God before the Lawe . And it beganne as soone as there is any mention made of anye fixed forme of a Church , In the table of that book . which standing of diuerse housholdes , were deuided into particular assemblies . Beza is then ( you see ) deceaued : who said that Moyses did institute the Eldership . It was long ( you heare ) before his time . Did I not tell you ; we should be brought ( in effect ) to Noahs Arke ? But let vs consider of his proofe , that maketh him so peremptory in this point . You shall not finde him so loose I trust : as to dash vs in the teeth with probabile est . Ineuitable demonstrations , or nothing from him . Forsooth ( saith he ) it is thus written in Exodus 4. Ibidem . So Moises and Aaron went and gathered all the Elders of the children of Israell : and Aaron tolde all the wordes which the Lord had spoken to Moyses &c. And what then ? Indeede , that would be heard : for as yet , this point runneth harshly . But ( saith Cartwright ) that these were Ecclesiasticall officers , thereby it may appeare : for that vnder such a tiraunt , and such oppression , as the Israelites were in , it is altogether vnlike , Ibidem . that they should haue the benefites of Magistrates of their owne . Indeede now he hath won his spurs . In effect all that he saith , is but thus much : It is likely that the Elders he buildeth vppon , were such officers as hee dreameth of . It is likely . It is probable .

Well , I trust the vizards of such maskers will be so throughly weatherbeaten ( in short time , ) as that the simplest will be able , to discerne their deformities . For in this cause assuredly , ( they pretending onely probabilities ) all probabilities indeede are flatly against them . Is it probable , if Christ had appointed any such gouernment , as they speake of , to haue continued to the end of the world , or if the Apostles themselues had ordayned or practised it , in their times : that all the auncient Martyrs , Councels , and godly Fathers would with one consent haue abolished it ? It is probable , Moyses being so carefull , ( as it is to another purpose by them alledged , ) that he would not omit to signifie vnto his people , euen the smallest matters , that God gaue him in charge , till he came to their basons , besomes , and pinnes about the Tabernacle : that he woulde haue made no mention of such a waighty point , as this is pretended to be : if the Lord had euer giuen him commaundement for the institution of it ? Exod. 18. Numb . 2. Deut. 1. and 16. & 17. Is it likely , Moyses so ofte speaking of the institution of the publicke courts , for Iustice and correction of manners amongst the Iewes ( which he knew were but to continue vntil the comming of Christ ) : that he would haue beene silent , as touching the institution of this spirituall gouernement , which should haue lasted till the day of iudgement , if he had receaued any such Commission ?

To draw therefore to an end of this point . The institution of this pretended gouernment , cannot be shewed out of the old Testament : and then by theyr owne confessions ( in effect ) it may not be vrged out of the new . Because they say , that Christ appointed no other forme of regiment ; then they thought they could haue found to haue beene instituted by Moyses . But my conclusion shal be built vppon one of Vdals demonstratiue propositions : Demonst. 2. cap. 2. vz. That gouernement , whose originall is vnknowen ; hath no warrant in Gods word , and is vnlawfull . But the originall of the Geneua platforme of Discipline , is vnknowen : therefore it hath no warrant in Gods word , and is vnlawfull . And thus you see , that ( as I sayd in the beginning , ) the first time , that euer this fained Geneuian deuise saw light ( for ought I can read or iudge : ) was at Geneua . Whether for my part , I doe remitte it again , to see if they can deduce the pedigree of it , from any further Monuments of antiquity : or that else they may blotte it out , of their now deuised Creede , whereof you shall heare hereafter .

CHAP. VI. The seekers of the pretended Discipline are not yet agreede , what name they should giue vnto their Hierarchicall parish-meetinges .

THings for the most part are not long in being , before they haue their names . In that therefore the name of this pretended gouernement , is so vncertaine , ( as now I shall shew you ) it argueth in my opinion , that it is but a counterfaite . The time was not long , after the creation of all kind of cattell , and of the fowles of the Heauen , and of the beastes of the field ; Genes. 2. but they were brought to Adam , to giue them theyr names . And I am perswaded , the like course hath still been euer obserued : that in a manner as soone as thinges haue had their being ; they haue also had their names giuen them : or at the least they haue not beene long without them . Let Cartwright then first tell vs here , if he will still relie vppon his likelihood , mentioned in the former Chapter : What was the name of his Ecclesiasticall Hierarchy before the law . But you shall finde him herein as mute as a fish . Marry if you will come to the time of the law , when forsooth as Beza saith it was instituted : then both he , Beza , and diuerse others will soone satisfie any man , that will not bee wilfull ▪ What ? will they shew it vs in the old Testament ? Surely the chiefest of them haue not yet done it , neyther will they euer be able ( as I thinke ) to doe it . And therefore they are driuen to seeke it in the Iewes Talmud , Annot. in Mat. 15.3 . which is , saith Beza , blasphemus liber , a blasphemous booke .

Would a man haue thought that men so curious to admitte of nothing that is not in the Scriptures ; would haue stooped so low : as to the Talmud ? I cannot thinke that seeing Almighty God would not suffer the beastes of the earth and fowls of the aire , to be without their names , past two or three daies ; that he could be content , that such an excellent creature , as this is pretended to bee , shoulde be without a name so many hundreth yeares ; as from Moyses time vntill the Iewes Talmud was made . I trust no man will say that Moyses was in this point vnfaithfull , or that the Lorde bringing it vnto him to know how he would call it : he obstinately refused to giue it any name . Peraduenture Moyses a ciuile Magistrate , foreseeing that this regiment was to be placed in euery parish or Synagogue , and that so he himselfe should become subiect vnto it ; did seeke to disgrace it as much as he could , and therefore left it namelesse . Indeed that is an exception , which the Atturnies for it , in these dayes , doe make in effect against such Christian Princes and magistrates , as doe refuse to admitte it within their dominions .

But to come to the name which they finde in the Talmud : T. C. Beza . Caluin . They say it was called amongest the Iewes Sanedrim , a corrupt worde by them vsed : that was degenerated from the true Greeke name 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 which Beza doth translate Councell . A strange thing that the Hebrew tong should be so penurious , as that it was not able to afforde an Hebrewe name to suche a worthy regiment : or that it shoulde bee namelesse , vntill the Iewes and the Gretians had such familiar intercourse , as that they eyther coulde or would vouchsafe to borow any thing from them , which ( as most men thinke ) was not till Alexanders time , or not much before . But straunge or not straunge : be it as it may be . By this doctrine then of the Talmud and maister Bezaes translation : shall wee tearme this parochiall regiment , a Councell , and the Gouernours therein , how manie soeuer , so manie Councellors ? Surely this were greatly to the honour of England , and to the benefite of her Maiesties subiectes . For whereas nowe they haue many occasions to come to the Court to their Lordships , for the redresse of manie great enormities : they should haue a Councell table , to repayre vnto , in euerie Parrishe .

But it will heere bee aunswered peraduenture , that wee may not call it a Councell : For that our Sauiour Christ ( minding as they say , to translate the forme of the Iewes ecclesiasticall gouernement , tearmed Sanedrim , from the lawe , to the Gospell ) vsed not that name of Councell , but called it ecclesia : that is the Church . Very well : any thing will content me : Howbeit for ought I know , there was no cause , why it might not haue pleased our sauiour Christ , if he had conceiued so notable a liking of that Iewish platforme : but that hee might , also haue retayned the olde name , and so haue made no alteration at all . The authour of the booke of Discipline , hauing , as it should seeme , some such like consideration in his head , or what other I know not : and thinking scorne ( as I gesse ) to runne to the Iewes Talmud , for a name for this regiment : is not afraid to dissent from Caluin , Beza , his olde tutor Cartwright , and a number of other his good maisters here in : saying , obseruandum est , vnàcum re ipsa nomen etiam a Iudaeis ad nos translatum esse . It is heere to be obserued , that together with the thing it selfe , Disc. eccles. pag. 124. the very name also is translated vnto vs from the Iewes . And what name is that ? Forsooth saith he , Nomen . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ( that is congregation , or church ) : saepius apud Mosen certis & delectis viris tribuitur , qui a to●a congregatione adres obeundas designarentur : is often giuen by Moses vnto a certaine number of chosen men , that were to be appointed by the whole congregation to deale in sundry affaires .

So as by this fellowes saying : Christ made no alteration at all , when he said Dic ecclesiae , tell the church : but kept euen the olde name of it , vz: which it had before giuen vnto it by Moses . How blinde then was Beza , Cartwright , and the rest , that they could not finde this proper name of their soueraigntie in all the olde testament : Annot in Math. 16.18 . but were faine to flie to the Talmud ? But will Beza , thinke you , take this at his handes ? No I warrant you .

For saith he : vocabulo ecclesiae significari ciuium conuentum , nemo est qui ignoret , &c. Haebrei 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 vocant . Sed postea communis loquendi consuetudo fecit , vt pro eorum caetu accipiatur , qui Christum profitentur . There is no man ignorant that the word ecclesia doth signifie an assembly of Citizens . The Hebrews do call it an assembly or company met together . But afterward by custome it came to passe , that it was taken for the assembly of them that do professe Christ . Which custome ( I hope it will be confessed ) did begin about Christes time : and not in Moses time . And then the disciplinarian Trauerser is very well serued for his sawcinesse , in taking vpon him , to proceed further , then his sayd Maisters had giuen him in commission .

But howsoeuer these fellows will agree amongst themselues : me thinketh a man might be bold ( by their place of Mathew ) to call their parochiall regiment , Math. 1● . by the name of the church . For they all wil confesse : that Christ called it so . And then it will follow by their grounds , that euery parish or church , must haue a newe church erected in it : which new church must haue authoritie to command & censure the old , and so one Church must be ouer another . Yea but ( saith Beza in effect ) we are rather to follow the apostles , in this point then Christ . That which he called Church , meaning the Synedrium , that is Councell : the apostles called presbyterium , De excom. pa. 119. Eldership . Quod Christus ecclesiam iam mutato Synagogae vel Synedrij nomine appellarat : Paulus presbyterium nominauni . That which Christ called the Church , changing the name of Synagoge or Councell : Paul called Eldership . Againe : quod Iudaei Synedrium , Christiani presbyterium teste Apostolo vocarant . That which the Iewes called Councel : the Christians ( as the Apostle witnesseth ) called Eldership . And why ? Beza would blush , if he could not giue a reason for any thing . Idcirco fortassis , potius quam Synedrium , ne qua pateret calumniandi occasio , Contra Erast. fol 36. quasi Christiani statum publicum turbare & de magistratuum authoritate ac iurisdictione quicquam ad se protrahere vellent . The Apostles peraduenture called this regiment rather Eldership then Councell , least there might be giuen thereby some occasion of slaundering : as though the christians had purposed to haue troubled the publicke state , and to haue taken to themselues some part of the Magistrates authoritie and iurisdiction .

Well : and are we yet come to an issue , how we may call this forme of gouernement ? Shall we tearme it the Eldership ? No surely : if wee will follow some other reformed Churches , which are so ofte commended vnto vs . Presbyterium vocare Consistorium apud nos mos est . De excom. pag. 110. It is the maner and fashion with vs at Geneua ( saith Beza ) to call the Eldership a consistorie . With whom agreeth , I.B. the superintendent ( as it is thought ) of the Italian Church in London : saying : Although we haue in our churches the same order , which the Apostles ordained : De polit. ciu. & eccle. pag. 170. yet we haue changed the name of Eldership , & do call it now by another name , vz: consistory . And good reason . It is so called at Geneua . The Apostles call it Eldership : but yet they dispensing with that point , doe call it , as they list . Men no doubt ; of a soueraigne prerogatiue . But to proceede .

It shoulde seeme , that as these men , haue chaunged the name of Eldership into Consistorie : so haue others in some places done it into Synod . Sohnius To : 1. pag. 231. Against both which sort , Bannosius in his long and tedious disciplinarian discourse , is verie bold to write his minde : that it ought rather to be called Eldership : then eyther Synode or consistory : De pol. ciu. dei , &c. pa. 80 And that for two reasons : vz: first because some men do not distinguish sufficiently the assemblies of the christians , from the Synodes of the Iewes : and secondly , because the Hierarchy of Rome , Ibidem . doth call their presbyterium Eldership , consistorium a consistory .

From all these , as I suppose , many of the French Churches : or at the least that of Heidelberge doth dissent . For thus Iunius , Ecclesiasticus lib. 2. cap. 3. lately ( a chief Ruler there ) writeth . Concilium ecclesiae Senatumue appellamus : quod Paulus presbyterium : That which Paul called the Eldership , wee call the councell of the churche or the Senate . and so the Elders there are Senators .. Which names , both of Senate , and Senators ( sayth Beza ) Vt ciuilibus dignitatibus couuenientius & calumniae obnoxium : De excom. pag. 112. videtur studio quodam vetus purior ecclesia in occidente repudiasse , as being proper to ciuile dignities and subiect to slaunder , the olde purer churche in the West , doth seeme of purpose , to haue reiected . And Bannosius affirmeth : that the reason that moued those , where hee was , to call the Eldershippe a consistorie , was : quod nomen minus odiosum quam Senatus esset , because it was a name lesse odious , then the name of Senate . You haue heard also before out of Beza , that the Apostles themselues refused the name of Synedrium , as being all one with Councell or Senate , for the same respects : But all this notwithstanding , now , ( that belike ) they thinke themselues in some places , to haue laid such sufficient foundations for the continuance of their regiment , as that it shall not be remoued , ( what soeuer the Magistrates shall conceaue of it : ) they shew themselues in theyr colours , and doe call it plainely a Senate : neither respecting the wisedom which themselues doe ascribe vnto the Apostles , nor the foresayd example of the purer West Churches .

And indeede , although at Geneua , the name of the Consistory be most in vse : yet I gesse that Beza , would gladly bring it , to be chaunged , and called a Senate . And I doe partly so thinke , because in his printed Booke of excommunication : he hath left out the reason , why the Apostles called it not Senate but Eldership : which reason is in his written Booke that Erastus confuted . Besides also , oftentimes in his notes vppon the new Testament , hee tearmeth the forme of that gouernment , by the name of Ecclesiasticall Senate . And namely , where they dreame it was commaunded by Christ in these wordes . Dic Ecclesiae , tell the Church , Constat hic agi de Ecclesiastico Senatu : it is manifest , ( saith he ) that here Christ speaketh of the Ecclesiasticall Senate . In another place also ( he saith ) tell the Church , that is the Eldership : De excom. pag. 4.6 . and here in effect , tell the Ecclesiasticall Senate . So that ( to my vnderstanding ) he confoundeth Eldership and Senate ; making them both one . Which peraduenture will bring himselfe within the compasse of his own words against Castalion : To translate , Presbyterium , Eldership , Senatum , a Senate : doth argue a greate vanitye of witte , and is indeede a prophane innouation .

But to let that passe : by hooke or crooke , it must be a Senate , Fenner theol . pag. 277. which tickleth and pleaseth some of our reformers : insomuch as in their Latine discourses of Discipline . there is little , Disc. Eccl. so. 124. 123. but Ecclesiasticall Senate and Senatours . Christus pro more Iudaeorum Ecclesiam Ecclesiasticum Senatum appellauit . Christ after the custome of the Iewes , called the Ecclesiasticall Senate the Church . Againe : Ecclesiasticall Senate is an assembly of Elders &c. And againe : Cum hic Senatus 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 a Paulo appellatur : Presbyteros esse hos Senatores necesse est . Seeing this Senate is called by Paul an Eldership : it followeth of necessity , Learned disc. pag. 96. 85. that the Elders must be Senatoures . I omitte some old English names , which haue beene giuen to this Minion , Iunius . pa. 82. as Congregation , Assembly , Segniory &c. and some Latine names also , as the Epitome of the Church and Diaconia Presbyterorum , Iunius pa. 61. the Deaconship of Elders : because they are now growen ( as it seemeth ) to bee too base . Eccles. lib. 2. cap. 3. Rather let vs call it with Iunius ( if I conceaue his meaning ) materfamilias , De excom. pag. 124. the huswife of the Churche in Christes absence : or with Maister Beza , Tribunal Christi , the Tribunall seate of Christ .

But yet , for all these wordes : I greatly doubt it ; that such honourable titles will not long be continued . For if Maister Beza his interpretation of Christes speaches , Dic Ecclesiae , doth proue to be authenticall : then they must be enforced ( in my opinion ) to call their gouernement by a name of no great estimation ; Annot. Mat. 18.17 . amongest those , that professe Christ . Annot. Marc 5.22 . For let the place be considered , and hee maketh Christ in effect to say : Tell the Church , that is , tell the Senat , Archisynagogorum , of the Archrulers of the Synagogue : who had the power and iurisdiction , that is there spoken of , in their handes . By which exposition , if Christ had beene pleased to haue spoken properly , without vsing of any figure : when he saide , Tell the Church , he should haue said Tell the Synagogue : and the word Church in that place must needes be so expounded . Whereby it followeth : that ( if Christes authority by Bezaes exposition may be regarded , ) they ought by theyrowne collections and interpretations , to call their seuerall Senates , so many Synagogues . Besides : Annot. Mat. 10.17 . Maister Beza saith , that Synedrium and Synagogue were both one in Christes iudgement : and there is nothing more reasonable in theyr writings , then to call theyr Senats Synedria : which sheweth , that at the least , they may aswell , by Christs testimony , call them Synagogues if they list .

I would not haue troubled you with this tedious discourse of the seuerall names of this pretended regiment : but that you might vnderstand , how their tongues are deuided about such a trifle , and thereby also perceaue , the infancy or new birth of this fancy of theirs ; in that as yet they are not agreede , howe to name the Childe . If it fall out , that it get the name of Senate : what an honourable stile will this be : Senatus populusque Romanus , the Senate and people of Sainct Giles in the Fieldes , and so , of all other parishes in England ▪

CHAP. 8. Of Bishops generally : of the pretended equalitie , of Pastors , or new parish Bishops , and how the chiefe impugners of Bishops beginne to relent .

IN the olde testament , the high Priest , besides that he was a figure of Christ , had also vnder Moses , Iosua , the Iudges , and Kinges ( for the better ordering and gouernment of the church , ) authoritie and iurisdiction ecclesiasticall , within that countrie of Canaan , vnder whom for the same purpose were other Priests at least 24. that were called Principes Sacerdotum , Princes of the Priestes ; all of them inferior to the high Priest , but superior to the rest . In the new testament , our Sauiour Christ , whilst hee liued on the earth , had his Apostles , and in degree vnder them , his 70. Disciples . After his ascention , the same inequality of the ministery of the word ; continued in the Church ( by all mens confession ) as long ( at the least ) as the Apostles liued . In the Apostles times Saint Marke was Bishop of Alexandria , Saint Iames was Bishop of Ierusalem , Timothy was Bishop of Ephesus , and Titus was Bishop of Crete : if the ancient fathers , and Ecclesiastical histories be of any credite .

The Apostles hauing receaued the promise of the holy Ghost ; after a short time dispersed themselues ( by aduise ) into diuerse regions . And there by painefull preaching and labouring in the Lords haruest : they planted no doubt very many Churches . As the number of Christians grew , and had their particular assemblies , and meetings in many Cities and countries within euery one of their circuites : they placed pastors in euery congregation , they ordained certaine Apostolicall men , to bee chiefe assisters vnto them : whom they placed , some one in this particular countrey , another in that , and some others in sondry Cities to haue the rule and ouersight vnder them , of the Churches there : and to redresse and supply such wantes as were needefull . And they themselues , ( after a while , and as they grewe in age , and escaped the crueltie of tyrantes ) remained for the most part in some head Citty within their compasse : to ouersee them all , both Churches , Pastors , and Bishops or Superintendents : and to giue their directions as occasions required , and as they thought it conuenient .

When any , either of these Apostolicall assistantes , or of the Apostles themselues , dyed : there were euer some worthy men chosen and appointed to succeede them in those Cities and Countries , where they had remained . For wee may not idlely dreame , that when they dyed , the authoritie , which was giuen vnto them , ceased : no more then we may , that the authoritie of Aaron , & of his naturall sons expired and ended with them . Besides it is manifest by all Ecclesiasticall hystories : that many Churches were planted after theyr deathes . And furthermore , it coulde not be , but that some Churches , especially vnder those Apostles , that were soonest put to death , were ( when they dyed ) in the same case that Crete was , when Titus was sent thither , and had therefore as much neede of a Titus as euer Crete had . Furthermore , who can bee accompted to be well in his wittes , that will imagine , that Christ should ordaine such an authoritie , but for some threescore yeares ▪ especially the same causes continuing , why it was first instituted , that were before . Nay I may boldly say : that there was greater neede for the continuance of it afterward . For the Apostles hauing so great power to worke myracles , and by their praiers to procure from God such straunge executions of his pleasure vpon the contemptuous , as did fall vpon Ananias and his wife , ( and I doubt not but in like cases , sometimes , vpon some others ) : their ruling and commaunding authoritie , was not so necessarie then , as it was afterwards , when that power to worke myracles ceased .

But what should I neede to vse many wordes in a matter so apparant ▪ After the death of the apostles , and of their assistants : vz: the Bishops placed by them , as is mentioned , the Ecclesiasticall hystories , and the auncient fathers , haue kept the register of their names , that succeeded sundry of them , and ruled the Churches after them , as they before had ruled them . Whereupon they were called from all antiquitie : the Apostles and Apostolicall mens successors . This inequalitie in the Ministery of the worde , hath been approued and honoured by all the auncient fathers ( none excepted ) : by all the generall Councelles , that euer were held in Christendome : and by all other men of learning ( that euer I heard of ) for many hundred yeares after the Apostles time : sauing that Aerius the hereticke , an ambitious person , growing into great rage , for that hee missed of a Bishopricke , which he sued for : first broached the opinion , which is nowe so currant amongest his Schollers : that there ought to bee no difference betweene a Bishoppe and a Priest . Epiph. Whereby he tooke vppon him , to be equall with the Byshop , that preuailed in the said suite against him : & chalenged to haue as great authoritie , he being but a Priest , as the other had , being a Bishop .

In this latter age of the worlde , when after a long darkenesse , it pleased almightie God to restore vnto vs , the light of his Gospell : the chiefe instruments that God then vsed , and adorned with most singular giftes , for such a mightie worke , were very farre from that conceite , ●and rashe presumption , which afterwardes possessed certaine persons of Aerius humour , and yet doth boyle in many of theyr followers breastes . It is true , that many thinges are to bee found in their writings , which ( at the first shew ) do make very greatly against Bishops . But diuerse persons in these dayes , not well considering the circumstances of those times : doe greatly abuse the world , in extending them further , then they meant them . It was farre from their intent that those thinges which they had written against Popish Bishops ( the ennemies of the Gospell ) : should euer haue bene vrged , against such Bishops as did willingly embrace it . I will acquaint you a little with the proceedings of those times : and then leaue this point to your wise consideration .

When the said learned men beganne to seeke the reformation of Religion in Germany , it is not vnknowen vnto you , into what subiection the Pope had brought all Christian Princes and states . The Bishops as his vassals , did then wholly depend vppon him . They held their Bishoprickes by his authoritie : and nothing coulde be done , especially in Church matters , but by the Pope and them . So as when Luther and the rest beganne to disclose the enormities of Popery , and desired some godly reformation of them : you may easily conceiue ( the Pope and his Bishops being the chiefe maintainers of that corruption ) what little incouragement they found at their handes . It is euident in their writinges , howe earnestly and humbly at the first they dealth both with the Pope and with many other of the chiefest Bishops : that they would be content and pleased to reforme such thinges as they found to bee amisse in the Church . But all their indeuours to that purpose , were in vain . The Pope and his Clergy , stood too much vpon their reputation . If they should haue yealded , they imagined the world would haue condemned them : in that they had not in time , of themselues , preuented or redressed so notable abuses . Whereupon Luther & those learned men that ioyned with him , were driuen to flie vnto the Ciuil magistrates , & to aduertise them of their dueties , prouing it vnto them most plentifully out of the scriptures , that in such an obstinate defection amongst the priests , it appertained vnto them , ( euery one within their owne free states and territories ) to reforme religion themselues : as the godly kings in the old testament had done in the like cases . And the rather to moue them thereunto , they laboured by al the means they could , to make the Popish Clergy most odious vnto them . They inueighed against their pride , against their superfluities , against their tyranny , and against their corruptions . After much paines taking to these and the like effectes , it pleased God to moue the hearts of many of the ciuile magistrates , to thinke better of their duties , & plainly to perceiue , how the Pope and his Bishops had formerly abused them . The godly kings and magistrates in the scriptures , when they reformed religion , were euer most carefull , that the liuinges appointed by God for the Priests , might be throughly preserued . If any by abuse had bin alienated : they caused them to be restored againe . And so I suppose the ciuile magistrates , should haue done in this latter age . But it hath faln out otherwise : and all the other godly learned men in christendome , do mislike it . The perswasions to Princes that the Bishops and Abbots had too much : was very plausible . The free Cities , notwithstanding their freedom in respect of the Emperor , yet they were subiect all of them vnto Bishops : & were not discontented , that so good an occasion was offred vnto them , to procure their greater liberty . Luther and the rest of those learned men regarding nothing , but that the light of the gospel might be restored : were content to yeald much , & to beare ( against their minds ) with many vnequall conditions . So as at the last : by their wisdome and diligence , they preuailed . God moued the hearts of diuers ciuile magistrates : to begin a reformation . The Pope , the Bishops , and the chiefest of the Cleargy impugned it , by all the meanes they could possibly . Whereupon , there being no other remedie , their authoritie imployed to hinder those proceedinges , was reiected : and the most of their liuings ( which they had in any of those territories ) were seazed into the hands of the ciuile gouernors there . vpon these & many such like occasions , great trobles did arise . The bishops , thoght themselues greatly iniuried . Diuers great princes , took their parts : & so did the Emperor . They misliked the reformation ; which was proceeded in , after that sort : the authoritye of Bbs. was greatly insisted vpon . Insomuch as , ( notwithstanding that the sayd learned men had offered in the beginning to the Bishops , to performe al due obedience vnto them , if they would be content to reforme religion ) they were now againe constrained , to make the same knowen more generally , both to the Emperour , and to all the sayd Princes ; still offering for their parts , as much as they had done before , and that if they would but cease , to impose vppon them their intollerable burdens , of single life : of mens vnlawfull and wicked traditions , ( which they did further specifie ) : and to forbidde them to doe those things which God commaunded , they should doe : that then , they would with all their hearts most willingly yeeld vnto their Episcopall iurisdiction , and to the restoring of the same , where it had beene abolished . Vouchsafe ( I pray you ) to heare their owne testimonies , to this purpose . You shall thereby well perceaue , that if , they were now aliue in England , and should finde their names so vsed as they are , against the gouernment of our Bishops : they would take it in very ill part , and be heartily sory for it . Thus the authors of the Augustane confession , and all the learned men that haue subscribed thereunto , ( in which number Caluin is comprehended , ) haue professed touching this matter .

The Bishops might easily retain the obedience due vnto them : ●●sto . conf. August . per Chytr : p. 109 if they vrged vs not to keepe those traditions , which wee cannot keepe with a good Conscience . They impose a single life , and will receaue none that will not swear , neuer to teach the pure doctrine of the Gospell .

Apol. conf. Augu. Ibi. 363 Againe we haue ofte protested , that we doe greatly approoue the Ecclesiastical pollicy and degrees in the Church , & as much as lieth in vs , doe desire to conserue them . We doe not mislike the authoritie of Bishops : so that they would not compell vs to doe against Gods commaundement . Furthermore ; Apol. conf. August . per Pap. pag. 137. we doe here protest , and wee would haue it so recorded , that we would willingly preserue the Ecclesiasticall and Canonicall pollicy : if the Bishops would cease to tyrannise ouer our Churches . This our minde or desire , shall excuse vs with all posterity : both before God and all nations , that it may not be imputed vnto vs , that the authority of Bishops is ouerthrowen by vs .

Besides : Ibid. pa 305. I would to God ( saith Melanchthon ) I woulde to God , it lay in me to restore the gouernment of Bishops . For I see what a manner of Church we shall haue : the Ecclesiasticall pollicy being dissolued . Video postea multo intolerabiliorem futuram tyrannidem , quàm antea vnquam fuit : I doe see that hereafter will grow vp a greater tiranny in the Church , then euer there was before .

Moreouer : Erasmus Ebnerus . Hier. Ebnero ibid. pag. 310. mira dissipatio erit Ecclesiarum ad posteritatem &c. There will be a wonderfull confusion of Churches left to our posterity : except they may now bee ioyned together againe , and haue certain Bishops who may be enforced to gouerne the church , and looke vnto them more diligently then in times past they haue beene looked vnto . Againe : by what right or law may we dissolve the Ecclesiasticall pollicy : Melan. to Camerarius in Hist. con . August . per Chytr . p. 389. if the Bishops will grant vs that , that in reason they ought to graunt ▪ Et vt liceat , certe non expedit . And if it were lawfull for vs so to doe , yet surely it were not expedient . Luther was euer of this opinion : whom many for no other cause I see doe loue , but for that they thinke they haue cast off their Bishops by means of him , and haue obtained a liberty , minimè vtilem ad posteritatem , which will not be profitable for our posterity . For tell me what estate will the Churches be in hereafter : if all the olde orders be abolished , and that there bee no certaine rulers ordained ?

To the same effect also saith George Prince Anhalt , Earle of Ascaine Lord of Sewest and Brewburge : vtinam &c. I would to God that those which carry the names and titles of Bishops , Conciones Geor. Princ. Anhalt . fo. 61 would shew themselues to be Bishops in deede . I wishe they would teach nothing that is disagreeable to the Gospell , but rule their Churches thereby . O quam libenter , &c. Oh how willingly , and with what ioy of hart would we receaue them for our Bishops , reuerence them , obay them , and yeeld vnto them their iurisdiction and ordination &c. Id quod nos semper , & Dominus Lutherus etiam &c: which we alwaies and Maister Luther both in words and in his writings very often haue professed .

And Caluin himselfe writing to Cardinal Sadolet , concerning the course that had beene held at Geneua , ( as touching the reformation of Religion and in excuse thereof against his challenge ) doth shew himselfe to be of the same minde he was of , when he subscribed to the said confession of Augusta : professing that for his part he could haue beene well content , that the Bishop there should haue kept his authority and iurisdiction still , so that he woulde haue yeelded to the bannishment of Poperye . For thus hee writeth . Cal. to Sadol . Talem nobis Hierarchiam si exhibeant &c. If they bring vnto vs such an Hierarchy , or Priestly gouernment , wherin the Bishops shall so rule , as that they refuse not to submit themselues to Christ , that they so depend vppon him as theyr only head , and be content to referre themselues to him : in which Priestlye gouernment , let them so keepe brotherly society amongest themselues , that they be knitte together by no other rule then by the truth : then surely if there shall be any , that shall not submitte themselues to that Hierarchy or Priestly gouernment reuerently , and with the greatest obedience that may be : I confesse there is no kinde of Anathema or curse , or casting to the diuell , whereof they are not worthy .

And againe in the same Epistle , he vseth these wordes following : tending to the great commendation of the authority of Bishops . Statue quaeso , &c. Sette before your eyes ( I pray you ) the ancient face of the church , as it was amongest the Grecians in Chrys. and Basils times : and as it was amongest the Latinists , when Cyprian , Ambrose and Augustine liued : and then behold the ruins of that face , as now they are retained in the Church of Rome . And there will appeare as great difference betweene them , as the Prophets describe vnto vs , betweene the excellent estate of the Church that flourished vnder Dauid and Salomon , and that Church which in Zedechia and Ioachims dates was fallen into all kinde of superstition , and had defiled altogether the purity of the worship of God .

This Epistle was written by Caluin to the Cardinal 1539. at such time as being remoued from Geneua , he remayned at Strasburgh : where hauing great acquaintance with Melanchthon , Beza in vi● Caluin . Bucer , and diuerse other learned men , hee carried himselfe in such sort , as was greatly to their likings . Insomuch as whilest he remained at Strasburgh , Bucerusinter Epist. Calu. 27. and 28. the Colloquies at Wormes and Ratisbone , being appointed by the Emperour for the compounding of controuersies in Religion : the learned men that were sent thither , for the Protestants , reckonned Caluin a meete man to take thither with them . Which I thought good to obserue , because hereby it will further appeare : what minde and iudgement Caluin still carried concerning Bishops ; so as they would admit the reformation of Religion : contrary to Cartwrights shameles assertion , T.C. l. 1. p. 11● that Caluin would haue shaken at the name of an Archbishop : and haue trembled at the office of a Bishop . For in the articles agreede vppon at that time by the saide learned men , ( Caluin being amongest them ) for a reconciliation in the behalfe of the Protestants : thus they declared theyr iudgements of this matter . Arti. protest . cap de vnit . Ecclesiae . Vt omnia ordine fierent in Ecclesia &c. That all things might be done orderly in the Church according to S. Pauls rule &c. For the auiding of Schismes , there was a profitable ordination , that a Bishop should be chosen out of many Priests : who should rule the Church by teaching the Gospel , and by retaining the Discipline : & qui praeesset ipsis Presbyteris , and who should gouerne the Priestes themselues . Afterward also there were degrees made of Archbishops , & aboue them of Patriarches , &c. These ordinations ( if those that gouerne do theyr duty ) as preach , ouersee the doctrine and manners of their Churches , correct errors and vice , practise Ecclesiasticall censures , &c. Resp. protest . are profitable to preserue the vnity of the Church . And againe in their additions to the sayde Articles . As concerning ordination , we especially approoue the auncient custome of the Church : that those , that are to be ordained , should first bee tried , instructed , and vppon the publicke testimony of some godly and learned men , &c. admitted into the Ministery . This difficult and necessary charge for the Church , it is to bee wished ( reformation being made ) that the Bishops would take vpon them . And we heare that our learned men haue expressely so yeelded ordination vnto those Bishops , si praecedat reformatio , if first there may be a reformation . Likewise also in another treatise that was then made by Maister Bucer , with the aduise of the said learned men , De refor. aduer. Eccles. p. 95. and offered to the Emperour : it is thus written . Annitendum est &c. We must indeuour , that that forme and distribution of Ecclesiasticall gouernement , which the Cannons doe prescribe to Bishops and Metropolitanes , be restored and kept . And after in the same Treatise . Concerning names and titles , and all those things , wherewithall that externall power and dignity ought to be adorned and established , and the lawfull obedience of such as be vnder them confirmed : it will easily be agreed vpon .

Much more passed in those Colloquies and treatises to this purpose : Caluin himselfe as it hath beene sayd being then present , and in company whith those learned men . And the reasons that moued them so to offer , agree , and protest at that time in this behalfe , I thinke ( besides the former reasons mentioned ) were these , and such like : which Bucer ( a principall man then amongest them ) hath else-where sette down : When speaking of Bishops and Metropolitanes and of their authoritye ouer the Churches , and ministers within their Dioces and Prouinces , hee saith thus . Hoc consentiebat legi Christs , Bucer de vit. & vsu minist. pag. 565 fiebatque ex iure corporis Christi . This was agreeable to the law of Christ , and was done by the authority of the body of Christ . And in another place . Buc. de regu . Christi pa. 67 I am ex perpetua &c. Now by the perpetuall obsexuation of all Churches euen from the Apostles times , we doe see : that it seemed good to the holy Ghost , that amongest Priests to whom the procuration of Churches , was chiefly committed , there should be one , that should haue the care or charge of diuerse Churches , and the whole Ministery committed vnto him : and by reason of that charge he was aboue the rest , and therfore the name of Bishop was attributed peculiarly vnto these chief rulers of Churches . Nay he goeth further and sayth : that in the Apostles times one of the Priests or Pastors was chosen and ordained to be the Captaine and Prelate ouer the rest : Buc. de cura ●ura● . p. 251. who went before the rest , and had the cure of Soules , and the administration of the Episcopall office , especially in the highest degree . And this he proueth by the example of S. Iames Act 15. & after concludeth in this sort . The like ordination hath beene perpetually obserued in other Churches likewise as farre as we may learne out of all the Ecclesiasticall histories , and the most auncient Fathers , as Tertullian , Cyprian , Irenaeus , Eusebius and others .

Hereby then it may appear vnto you , what was thought of Bishops & of their authority by the learned men of those times : who sought as narrowly into that calling , what was lawfull , and what was vnlawfull , and were aswell able to iudge thereof : ( I may speake it I trust without offence ) as either Carwright or all his complices . There were some busie bodies indeede a little before or about the time of the Colloquies mentioned , who were very angry with the sayd learned men , & especially with Melanchthon , for yeelding so much concerning Bishops . Of whom he himselfe writeth in this sort . Melan. to Camerar . hist , conf. August . per Chytr . pa. 304. Hoc malè habet scilicet quosdam immoderatiores &c. This forsooth doth anger some immoder at men : that the iurisdiction and pollicy Ecclesiastical is restored : interpreting the same to be the restitution of the Romish souerainty . And thus also to Luther : Mel. to Luth. Ibid. pa. 306 you do not belieue into what hatred I am growen with them of Noricum , and with certain others : for the restitution of iurisdiction vnto Bishops . Ita de regno suo , non de Euangelio dimicant socij nostri . Our fellowes doe so fight for their own kingdome , and not for the Gospell . Camerarius to the same purpose in like maner maketh this report . Camer . in vit. Phillip . Audiui quosdam &c. I haue heard some accuse Phillip in that respect , inhumanissimè , most barbarously , when one of them said : that if he had beene hired with a great summe of money by the Romane faction to haue defended their state , he could not ( in his opinion ) haue dealt more effectually for them , then he did in maintaining of Bishops : and that Phillip was not to be accounted a Patrone of his owne part , but of his aduersaries , and that a chiefe and a singular Patrone &c. These things & diuers other more slanderous they vttered without shame : quorum magnopere postea paenituit & puduit plaerosque : Whereof many afterwards repented and were ashamed of them . But notwithstanding all these and such like slaunderous hare-braines ; the grauer sort , the best learned , the godliest , and the wisest men amongest the Protestants , that then liued : did follow and proceede as Phillip had begun , euen accordingly as before I haue mentioned .

And since that time ( for any thing I can find to the contrary ) although the bishops ( still cleauing to the Pope , and opposing themselues against all kinde of reformation , further then it pleased them ) : were thereupon euen of necessitie reiected ( as before I haue signified ) : yet as soone as the saide learned men grewe to be able to establish their churches , in any reasonable maner , they ordained amongest themselues the very same offices in effect , throughout the most of the reformed Churches in Germanie , Obseruat . chaunging onely the old Greeke names ( as Zanchius reporteth ) of Archbishops and Bishops into new and worse Latine names of superintendentes , and generall superintendentes , Erneste the Duke of Brunswick , Ernest. Regius in vit. Vrbani Rhegij . presently after the assembly of Augusta , procured Vrbanus Regius to go home with him : & ecclesiarum in toto Ducatu Episcoparum ipsius gubernationi permisit : and committed vnto his gouernment the Bishopricke , Geor. Anhalt . pag. 611. or superintendencie of all the Churches within his Dukedome One Sydonius being thrust ( as it seemeth ) from the Bishopricke of Mersenburge , ( as cleauing wholly to Popery ) , was afterwardes ( vppon his leauing of the Pope , and vpon promise made to maintaine the reformation of religion , made in his absence , restored to his bishopricke . Geor. Anhalt . pag. 60. And after him succeeded ( as I take it in that bishopricke ) George the Prince Anhalt before mentioned : being chosen thereunto as hee saith himselfe , vniuerso capitali consensu , by the consent of the whole chapter . He had been brought vp in learning , and was at the time of the saide election , In operib. Geor. Anhal● . pag. 630. a Priest or Cannon in the Cathedrall Church of Mersenburge . Of whom being bishop Henricus Stenius saith : règebat ecclesias in Mersenburgensi diocaesi : hee ruled the Churches in the dioces of Mersenburge . And againe : praesuit ecclesijs vniuersae ditionis Mysorum : he gouerned the Churches of all the dominion of Mysya .

Agreeable aswell to these examples , as to the saying of Zanchius before specified , is that which Ia : Haerbrandus a verie learned man , and in his time Diuinitie reader of Tubinge , Ia. Haerb . loc. com . pa. 699. writeth in his common places : Debent gradus esse , &c. There ought to be degrees amongest Ministers , &c. as with vs in the Duchy of Wirtenberge , there are subdeacons , Deacons , Pastors , special superintendentes , and ouer them generall superintendentes . And in another place the same Haerbrand shewing his iudgement generally : Loco de eccl. pag. 699. Saluberrimum esset , &c. It were a most profitable order for the welfare of the Church : if euery particular prouince had her Bishoppes , and the Bishops their Archbishop . And Iacobus Andreas , hee is muche of the same opinion ( as certaine Ministers of Heidelberge doe reporte ) vz: Epist. contr. minist. Heidel . pag. 8. where hee saith : that it is a difficult matter to defend the peaceable estate of Churches except there be some chiefe ruler and Byshop amongest them , to whome rerum summa deferatur , the full ordering of matters , may be referred .

To this purpose in like sorte , Osiander writeth : euen as though he had spoken of the Church of England . Loc. com . cap. 10 : Although in the Primitiue church ( when she flourished with myracles ) there were diuers degrees and orders of Ministers : some Apostles : some Prophets , some Euangelistes , and some Pastors and Doctors : yet as now the state of the Church is , the Ministers may be deuided into three orders or degrees : vz: Deacons , Pastors , and Superintendentes , &c. To the Pastors particular Churches are committed : Nec dubitatur , &c. and it is not doubted , but that euery one of them , may rule the Church committed vnto him , sine collegae concilio , without the Councell of any fellow . Those pastors we call superintendents , who are so set ouer other pastors ; that they may visite the state of their Churches , and punish both the Pastors and the people , if any thing be done amisse : or if any thing fall out that they cannot correct , then they referre it vnto a higher court , consisting of deuines and politick men , who by the ciuile Magistrates authoritie , or approbation , doe amend such defects , &c.

Hemingius also affirmeth : Iust. deguber . eccle. that there are dispares dignitatis gradus in the ministery , & that partly by the law of Cod , & partly by the approbation of the Church : that as Christ ascending into heauen : gaue gifts vnto men : Apostles , Prophets , Euangelists , doctors , and pastors : so he gaue to the Church authoritie for edification : that the Church by vertue of that power ordained ministers for her profite : that the purer churches following the Apostles times , ordained some Patriarchs , some Bishops , &c. some Pastors , and some Catechists , &c. That the reformed Churches , haue their Bishops , doctors , Pastors , and vnder them chaplains ( we call them cur●tes , as I thinke ) : That the Churches in Denmarke , doe acknowledge degrees of dignitie amongst Ministers : that they iudge it meet , that other Ministers should obey their Bishops in althings which tend to the edification of the church according to the word of God , & the profitable gouernment of the Church : and that they iudge Bbs. to haue authoritie ouer other Ministers of the church , ius non despoticum , sed patrium . Ieremia Hombergus a worthy man in the Churches of God about Styria , Carinthia , and Carniola ; but now remoued thence through the persecution , which the Iesuits haue kindled in those parts : affirmeth in his common places of diuinitie , reuiewed & allowed at Ratisbone with very direct termes : De ministerio that God himselfe hath appointed degrees of ministers in the church , euen amongest those which haue a mediate calling : vt concordia inter ministros conseruetur , &c. that concord amongst ministers might be preserued , & the workes of their ministery performed more easily , and more decently . And after he hath specified the common duties both of Bishops and ministers : he setteth down those , which he thinketh are peculiar to Bishops , and to bee executed by them , vz: excommunication , ordination , and confirmation .

And with him agreeth the Diuinitie reader at Lauinge , Phill. Haylbronner : De minister . eccle. writing vpon the first Epistle of S. Paul to Timothy . Where he sheweth that the Apostle appointed Timothy to be Bishop of Ephesus : that accordingly , there are and ought to be degrees and orders of ministers of the Church : & hauing described the common duties likewise of all ministers generally , he saith thus . Episcopus , &c. Besides the said common offices , to Bishops was commended the publicke ouersight and gouernment : so as it belonged to them to appoint fit ministers for the churches neere them : also to heare the accusations and complaints which are made against the Pastors of theyr churches , and to decide them , &c. Sic enim Paulus scribit Timotheo Ephesorum Episcopo : for so Paul writeth to the Bishop of Ephesus : lay thy hands rashly vppon no man , and against a Priest admit not an accusation , &c.

Of the same iudgement in like sort is Egidius Hunius , the diuinitie professor , at Marpurge , in his commentarie vpon S. Pauls Epistle to Titus . He affirmeth : that , the Apostle appointed Titus , the generall superintendent for the gouernement ouer the Churches of that large and noble Iland of Crete : that his dutie was to ordaine Pastors in euery parish , and likewise to make Bishops : that the Bishop or superintendent hath his dioces , the Pastor his parishe or church : as Paule commaunded Titus to place priestes in euery parish : That thereby , it appeareth God doth require , that there should bee orders and degrees amongest Ministers , vt alij praesint , alij subsint : that some may rule , and some obey : that this order is not newly deuised , but receaued in the church from the Apostles times : and that God himselfe made a distinction betweene Ministers , and appointed degrees , according to that hee gaue some Apostles , some Prophets , some Euangelistes , some Pastors , and Doctors , for the repayring of the Saintes for the worke and the Ministerie , and for the edification of the body of Christ . And againe , vppon these wordes : A Bishop must be vnreproueable &c. hee meeteth with the common obiection , for the equalitie of Ministers , because euery Minister is called a Bishope sometimes in the Scriptures : and sayth : that the word Bishoppe notwithstanding it be oftentimes vsed by S. Paule for euery pastor of the church of God : who haue a kinde of ouersight ouer theyr seuerall charges , and so may suo modo after a sort bee called Superintendents and Bishops &c. yet heere it signifieth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Primarios illos ecclesiarum pastores &c. Those chiefe pastors to whom the ouersight of the liues and manners of the other ministers is committed , whom according to the force of the Greeke appellation , we in these dayes do call Superintendents .

Hitherto then , it appeareth ( as I take it ) what is both the practise of the reformed Churches in Germany , and the iudgement also of the chiefe learned men there , since Melanchthon & Bucers times : concerning Bishops or Superintendents , with their preheminence , charge , and authoritie . Some there are , indeed , beyond the seas , who ( followinge the immoderate , proude , and slaunderous humor that Melanchthon & Camerarius spake of before ) haue vttered their great mislike of the Germaine Superintendents ; and that with lesse modestie a great deale , then doth well become them . In reproofe of one of them , Gerlachius a learned man of Tubing writeth in this sort . Ger. in hyperas . Dan. p. 30. Licet titulos ordinum &c. Although thou beholdest with disdaine ( as it were from aboue ) the titles of orders ; after the fashion of hypocrites , and of the Anabaptistes : yet with a vaine perswasion of knowledge & foolish arrogancye , whereby thou contemnest our countrymen in respect of thy selfe , and dost chalenge especiall knowledge to thee and thy fellowes onely : Plus turges quàm omnes Doctores et Superintendentes nostri : Thou swellest more with pride then all our Doctors , and Superintendents . And what commeth into thy minde that thou shouldest cauill at the degrees of ministers , as though it were not lawfull to ordayne such degrees for the building and gouernment of the Church ? Did not God himselfe in the old Testament appoint a chiefe Bishop , Priests , and Leuits ? And in the new Testament gaue hee not some Apostles , some Prophets , some Euangelists , and some Pastors , and Doctors ? Had not the primatiue church accordingly : Bishops , Priestes , and Deacons ? And againe , a little after in the same booke : whilest thou a proude man girdest so often at the title of Superintendent : Iud. Numb : 16. I affirme that thou reprehendest the Apostle Paule himselfe , who hath giuen this name to a distinct order of ministers of the church . And our Auncestors following this Apostle haue thought it meete , that for the edifying of the church , and for orders sake ; there should be certaine Superintendentes , that is , ouerseers not onely of the flocke , but of the nisters in like manner .

Thus farre Gerlachius : who if hee were in England & knewe into what an extremitie the like persons , are growen vnto in the same case amongst vs : It would peraduenture moue him . For nowe there is no remedye , with our ministers of that consorte : but they must all bee equall . They cannot endure it , ( no the meanest of them ) to haue anye of their owne coate , their Superior . They are fallen into the contradiction of Chors , and doe tell both Moyses and Aaron , that they take to much vpon them . All Pastores ( saye they ) are and ought to be of equall authoritie in their seuerall Parishes , and no one to haue power ouer another . Euery parish Priest with them ; must bee a Bishop : and haue as full iurisdiction in his Parochiall dioces , as it is lawful for any Bishop in the world either to haue or to execute . For orders sake they are content , that in their Classicall , prouinciall , or Nationall assemblies , some one minister bee chosen from amongst themselues : to be the moderator for the propounding of matters & gathering of voices &c. But his office & preheminence , is to continew no longer , then whilest those assemblies last . Otherwise or for any further authoritie either of Bishops , or Archbishops ( whether they haue abolished popery , reformed religion , maintained the gospell , abandoned superstition , or whatsoeuer they haue done , or yealded vnto , ) they holde it altogether vnlawfull : & do raile against them all , & against their callings , and against all that defend them , and that with more then heathenish scurrilitie .

Cartwright is the chiefe man , T C. lib. 2. pag. 438. that began this course in Englande ; and you shall see howe pretily his schollers follow him . T. C. lib. 2. pag. 485. Archbishops & Bishops ( sayth he ) are new ministeries , T. B. lib. 1 p. 82 & 85. neuer ordayned by God . The first step to this kind of Bishopricke beganne at Alexandria , and not at Syon . The name and office of an Archbishop is vnlawfull , his function is of the earth , and so can do no good but much harme in the church : he is a knobbe or some lumpe of flesh : Dem. mart . &c which being no member of the body doth burthen it and disgrace it . Whereupon foorth come his schollers crying out amaine : Hay any work pag. 14.15.20 . 21.28 . that Archbishops & Bishops are superfluous members of the body of Christ : and that they mayme and deforme his body : Vdall dial . C. ● D. 2 . making it by that meanes a monster . Hay any work Ma. thes. 49.34 That they are vnlawfull , false , & bastardly gouernors of the church . That they are the ordinances of the Diuell : That they are in respect of theyr places ; enemies of God : that they are petye Popes , mart , sen. B. 4. C. 1 , . pety Antichristes , Bishops of the Diuell , and incarnate Diuels : that none euer defended this gouernment of our Bishops , but Papists and such as were infected with Popish errours . That the Lawes that mayntaine the Archbishops and Bishops are no more to bee accounted of , then the Lawes that mayntaine Steves : and that the true church of God ought to haue no more to do with them , and their Synagogues , then with the Synagogue of Sathan .

All which Consistorian and modest assertions , aswell for the equalitie of Ministers , as against the calling of Bishops being ioyned together : are wholy opposite to all that , which hitherto I haue writt̄e touching this matter . Euen as though they should haue cast downe their gauntlets & proclaymed an vtter defiance , to all the Churches , that euer were established in the world , for much aboue three thousande yeares : the Churches whilest the law continued ; the churches in Christs time ; the Churches in his Apostles times ; the Churches throughout all christendome for a thousand & fiue hundred yeares : against all the generall Councels : all the auncient fathers : & all ecclesiasticall histories : against al the chiefe reformers of religon in this latter age : against all the learned mens iudgements before mentioned , and against all the reformed churches whersoeuer in christ̄edome , that eyther haue BB. or Superint̄edents . God forgiue them this great sin of pride & presumption : & deliuer them out of the number of those , 2. pet 2 : Iude. of wh̄o it is said , that their mouthes speake proud things , that they dispise gouernment : that they stand in their own c̄oceit : that they feare not to speak euill of them that are in dignitie & authoritye , & likewise of those things that they know not : that they vse swelling words of vanitie ; that they beguile vnstable soules ; that they seperate them selues from other , and that they haue not the spirit .

It will not surely serue their turnes one day : to saye that ( in such their wilfull opposing of themselues , as it were , against heauen , & in such their outragious rayling and bitternesse , against so holy a calling ) , they followed certaine of their bretheren the ministers in Scotland , or in the lowe countries , or in Geneua . For in this vaine , they haue exceeded them all , especially them of the two countries last mentioned . Maister Caluin although after his restitution to Geneua , he might be thought to haue had some harder opinion of Bishopps then he had before : yet if you compare him with these fellowes , you would thinke him an especiall fauourer and defender of them . He could well enough indure it● to vse these honorable tearmes to Archbishop Cranmer . Illustrissime domine : clarissime presul et mihi ex animo reuerende : commendinge his authoritie , his wisdome , and his integritie , & desiringe him to put them all in practise , for the benefit of the Church . And in his letter to the King of Polonia he sheweth himselfe to be far from Cartwrights minde , vz. that the Popes authoritie is more necessary ouer all Churches ; then the authoritie of an Archbishopp ouer a prouince , and that neither of them can discharge so great an office . For there , writinge against the pope , he propoundeth to the Kinges consideration , the auncient forme of church-gouernment by Archbishops : tearminge it a moderate honor : ( meaninge therby ) as I take it ( the preheminence and authoritie which Archbishops then had , ) as beinge limited for the execution of it , within the compasse of mans power : wheras the Popes pretended authoritie , beinge of so large an extent as comprehending the whole world , could not possibly be executed by any man liuinge .

But yet I am short of M. Caluins moderation in this matter : for discoursing of the state of the auncient churches , ( before the time of popery ) : of Bishops , Archbishops , and patriarches , their authority and superiority in their circuites , dioces and prouinces : he vseth these modest speeches . Cal: Instit: lib. 4. Cap: 4. Although the Bishops of those times , did set foorth many canons , wherin they might be thought to expresse more then is expressed in the scriptures , yet they framed their whole gouernement according to the onely rule of gods word , with that caution : vt facilè videas , nihil fere hac parte habuisse a verbo Dei alienum . that you may easily see there was nothing almost , in this behalfe disagreeing from the word of God . If there may be found any imperfection in the orders which they made : yet they indeuoured with a sincere studie , to keepe the institution of God : from the which , ibid. sect. 2. non multum aberrarunt , they swarued not much . And a little after : the elders that were ministers of the worde , did choose one from amongst them-selues in euery Cittie ; vnto whom especially they gaue the title of Bishop , Ne ex aequalitate vt fieri solet dissidia nascerentur : least by aequalitie , as it vsually happeneth , dissentions should arise . As touching the beginning of this order : he agreeth with S. Ierome , that it hath continued in the Church since S. ibid. sect. 4. Markes time . And ( saith he ) that euery prouince had her Archbishop : that also in the Nicene Councel , Patriarches were appointed , who were in order and degree aboue Archbishops : Id ad disciplinae conseruationem pertinebat ; It did pertaine to the preseruation of discipline . But his conclusion is yet more full , and differeth but a little ( if it differ at all ) from that which the learneder sort in England , doe now maintaine with all antiquitie . For speaking of the forme of gouernment so framed ( as is said ) in the councel of Nice : he vseth these wordes : ibid. sect. 4. Si rem intuemur , reperiemus veteres Episcopos non aliam regendae ecclesiae formam voluisse fingere , ab ea quam Deus verbo suo praescripsit : if we looke to the forme of gouernment it selfe , we shall finds that the auncient Bishoppes , would not deuise another forme of churchregiment , differing from that which God hath prescribed in his word .

And thus you may perceaue , what great difference there is betwixt our mens spirites , and Maister Caluins ; their outrage , and his modestie : their pride , and his humilitie : their rashnes , ignorance , and giddines , and his sobrietie , learning , and iudgment . The forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment agreed vpon in the councell of Nice : differeth not from that which God hath prescribed : and who then but men that haue shamelesse foreheads , dare so incounter it ? But it may peraduenture be sayd : that , howsoeuer Caluin did carrie himselfe in this cause , yet Beza is of an other opinion .

Indeed he is so : but it turneth more & more , dayly to his own discredit . He succeeded Maister Caluin in place ; but neither in his learning nor in all his vertues . And I do attribute it vnto his want of iudgment : that he hath shewed himselfe such a busie body , where he had nothing to doe . It is chiefly he , that hath set the pretended reformers , in this whole land , so much a gogge against Bishops : by his secret letters , and other disordered writinges of incouragement vnto them . And yet ( forsooth ) he can write to other men ; and pretend the quite contrarie . Consider the processe following : and then , if I be too blame thus to write of him , Epist. 2. tell me of it .

In one of his epistles dated 1570. he affirmeth that Archbishops & Primates are a shadowe and image of the policy of Roome : that they are petty tyrantes in respect of the Pope : and that although the names be neuer soe auntient , yet it ought to haue beene enquired , whether it were lawful to bring them into the church &c. It had beene a maruailous beneficiall matter to all posteritie : that Beza had beene the commaunder at Geneua in the times of the Primitiue church , that so the learend & graue fathers of those ages might haue inquired this point of him & knowen his pleasure .

In the yeare 1572. it seemed good vnto him , ( as it hath beene said before ) to write his letter into this Iland , to Knox the reformer in Scotland : at what time the Bishops there had receaued the Gospell ( at the least many of them as I thinke ) though it woulde not serue their turne to keepe them in their places . In which letter amongst many other good consistorian documents , hee writeth thus . Epist. 79. But I would haue you , and the other brethren to remember that which is before your eies : as Bishops brought foorth the Papacy , so false or counter set Bishops , the reliques of Popery , will bring in Epicurisme . They that desire the churches good , let them take heede of this pestilence . And seeing you haue put that plague in Scotland to flight : quaeso &c. I hartily pray you that you neuer suffer it againe vnder any pretence or color of keepinge of vnitie : which pretence deceaued the auncient fathers , euen many of the best of them .

But least any man shoulde imagine , that I doe Beza iniury in applyinge his wordes , to the purpose for the which I bring them : and , that he writ not thus , against such Bishops as did imbrace and maintaine the true religion , which we all professe ; but against Popish Bishops : Cartwright him-selfe wil cleare both me and Bezaes meaning . For he ( a man of the same spirit ) hath brought both those places , and vrged them , for Bezaes iudgment against our Bishops nowe in England . Beza ( saith he ) is so farre from allowing Archbishops , that our kind of Bishops he calleth counterset Bishoppes , reliques of Poperie , such as will bring in Epicurisme : and soe he proceedeth on with the rest of Bezaes wordes , to Knox as before they are set downe . But I shall not needed to labour much vpon this point . Beza will himselfe vouch safe ( you shall see ) to deliuer his mind , as plainly as one would wish .

In his treatise that he writ into Scotland , about the yere 1579. of three sortes of Bishops mentioned in the third Chapter : vz. the Bishops of God , of man , and of the deuill : He writeth thus ( by no good direction , I am sure ) of that ancient , and the most godly Councell , that euer was helde since the Apostles times , vz. the honourable councell of Nice . The Nicene Councell pretending ancient custome , confirmed the patriarchship , and made a way for the horrible papacy of Rome , ( sliding on ) , and vnderlaid the seate for the harlot that sitteth vpon seauen hils . And afterward , where M. Caluin spake , as you haue heard , of the forme of Church gouernment , which was then concluded vppon , that it differed not from that which God had prescribed : Beza is bold ( if Field his translator haue dealt well with him ) to call it a deuillish Oligarchie , making the fathers of the said Councell , to be the deuisers , or at least , the aduancers of the Bishops of the deuil . Vnder which member of his diuision , hee bringeth all the Bishops in Europe ( excepting his owne parochiall Bishops ) notwithstanding anie reformation of religion whatsoeuer . And therefore aduiseth all godly Princes , that at once they abolish them .

Neither is hee in effectanie thing more gratious or bountifull to his second sort of Bishops , the Bishops of men . But before you heare his censure of them , you shall vnderstand how he describeth such a kinde of Bishop . The Bishop of man ( sayth he ) brought into the Church by the alone wisedome of man , besides the expresse word of God , is a certaine power to one certaine pastor , aboue his other fellowes , yet limited with certaine orders , or rules prouided against tyrannie . They which did beare this office of Bishop , are called Bishops in regard of their fellowe Elders , and the whole Cleargie , as watch-men set ouer the Cleargie . And I maruell why the ministers after the Apostles time shoulde not haue as greate neede of such watch-men , as they had when the Apostles themselues liued : who were then their watch-men by all their confessions .

But nowe let vs see what Beza will doo with these kinde of Bishops . Surely by his aduise , down they must as wel as the former , or to vse his translators phrase , they must bee chased awaie . And his chiefe reasons are these , First , because that vnlesse this roote also be plucked vp , it wil come to passe , that the same fruit will sprout and bud forth againe : Secondly , for that Christ ( as he falsely supposeth ) hath shut this superiority out of the church : And thirdly , because ( as hee saith ) Where the remnants of this gouernment by a few , are not cleane taken awaie , the word of the Lord is openly hindered . Hee meaneth ( I thinke ) his counterfet platforme of discipline : for the inordinate vrging whereof , some few disordered persons haue beene put to silence . But what hath he to do with that ? You see then the mans boldnesse , and with what presumption hee aduanceth himselfe against all the learned Fathers ; against all the generall Councels ; against all the flourishing Churches , that haue beene in the worlde since Christs time ; against the iudgementes of all the chiefe learned men ( almost ) of ourage : & ( that which is most with him ) euen against the iudgement of his superior master Caluin ; and you see also the pit and smoke , from whence the Locustes amongest vs of late yeeres came , that with their venemous libels and railing discourses , haue infected the harts of many good men , with a dislike of the holy calling of our Bishops . That some haue been mis-lead heeretofore , with the violent streame of this faction , I wonder not But for mine owne parte , I shall little pittie anie of them heereafter , if when they shall see these things , they will notwithstanding yeld ouer themselues to bee seduced by so grosse , so palpable , & so childish illusions : but especially if they shall heare Beza himselfe begin to alter his mind , and to sing a new song .

I will not affirme much for his alteration : but when hee hath opened himselfe a little further vnto you , account of him as God shall moue your harts . Surely he will not proue a man ( in my opinion ) for anie to build their faith vppon . In his confessions , he once affirmed , that the constitutions of the auncient fathers concerning Bishops , Beza Conf. ●● . ● Metrapolitanes , and Patriarches , their seates , limites , and authoritie , were made optimo zelo , with the best zeale . It was then , I trust , a zeale ioined with knowledge . And hauing both such zeale and such knowledge , did they agree in the Councell of Nice vppon such a deuillish Oligarchie ?

Of late yeres he hath written two or three Letters , to the now Lord Archbishop of Canterburie : with an other manner of stile , then ( I suppose ) hee woulde haue done , if he had thought him to haue been the Bishop of the deuil . Beza & Sadeel to the L. Arch. 15. Sept. 1589. For thus he indorsed them . Reuerendissimo viro , et in Christo patri , Domino Archiepiscopo Caentuariensi , serenissimae Reginae Conciliario , et totius Angliae primati . To the most reuerend man & father in Christ , the Lord Archbishop of Canterburie , Councellor to the Queenes maiestie , and primate of all England . And one of them was thus subscribed . Amplitudini tuae addictissimi in Christo , Theodorus Beza , A. Sadeel , nomine totius nostri caetus , nec non totius Ecclesiae Geneuensis . Most addicted to your greatnes Th. B.A.S. in the name of our assembly , and also of the whole Church of Geneua . But it is of especial consideration , that hee writeth in the other Letter .

It should seeme , that the sayd now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury hath written somwhat vnto Beza , as concerning his ouer-busying of himselfe about our Church , without anie lawfull commission . And in defence of himselfe he answereth thus . Caeterum reuerende mi Domine , Beza to the L. Arch. of Cant. 8. Mert. 691. But my reuerend Lorde , in that you thought it meet to moue vs in your Letters , that wee should thinke well of that kingdome , and likewise of your Church , and the gouernment thereof ; surely it troubled both mee and Sadeel in some sort , as beeing greatly afraide least anie sinister rumours are brought to you of vs , or least those things , which we haue written of Ecclesiasticall policie , properly against that Antichristian tyrannie as necessitie required , are taken by some in that sense , as if euer we had meant to compel to our order those churches that thinke otherwise then we doo of it , and the gouernors of them , agreeing els with vs in the truth of doctrine agreeable to the word of God , and that except they followed our order , we accounted otherwise of them then their godlines and dignitie , and mutuall brotherhood doth require , &c. Farre be this arrogancie from vs . Quis vllum nobis in vllam Ecclesiam imperium tribuit ▪ Who doth giue vs authority ouer anie church ▪ Far be it from vs that we should thinke ( so the substantiall matters be kept ) there ought nothing to be graunted to antiquitie , nothing to custome , nothing to the circumstances of places , times , and persons , &c.

Againe in his booke against D. Sarauia , hauing spoken of the tyrannie of Popish Bishops , Pag. 126 hee maketh this exception , Neque tamen : But wee doo not therefore accuse all Archbishops and Bishops ( now so called ) of tyranie . For what arrogancie were that ? Nay so as they doo imitate the examples of the olde holy Bishops , and indeuor as much as they can , to reforme the house of God so miserably deformed , according to the rule of Gods word , why may we not acknowledge al of them now so called Archbishops and Bishops , obey them , and honor them with all reuerence ▪ So far we are from that which some obiect vnto vs most falsly and most impudently , as though we tooke vppon vs to prescribe to anie Church , in anie place , our examples to be followed , like vnto those vnwise men , who account wel of nothing but of that which they doo themselues . And to the same effect a little before , Pag. 111 If now the reformed Churches of England being vnderpropped with the authoritie of Bishoppes and Archbishops , do continue , as this hath happened to that Church in our memorie , that she hath had men of that calling , not onely most notable martyrs of God , but also excellent pastors and doctors : Fruatur sane ista singulari dei benificentia quae vtinam illi sit perpetua : Let her truly inioy this singular blessing of God , Zanch. d●religi pag 217 which I wish may be perpetuall vnto her . Furthermore , it should seeme , that Zanchius ( as moderate and learned a man , as euer fauoured the pretended Elderships ) was appointed some 12 , or 16. yeres since , to draw a conf●ssion of religion for the Churches of France , & others , as Melanchthon had done the Augustan confession for Germanie . Accordingly hee drew it , and in the same , speaking of Bishops , he vseth these wordes : Non improbamius patres , Zanch. derelig . cap , 25. &c. Wee doo not disalow the fathers , in that after a diuers waie of dispensing the word and gouerning the Church , they multiplied diuerse orders of Ministers : seeing it was lawfull for them so to do , as it is vnto vs , and seeing it appeareth , that they did it for honest causes , appertaining at that time to the order , decencie , and edification of the Church . And in the next article : Hac ratione , &c. By this reason , vz. that the nurseries of dissentions and of schismes may be taken away , wee thinke that these thinges which were ordained before the Councell of Nice , concerning Archbishops , nay , as touching the foure Patriarches , may be excused and defended . When this booke was perused , and this clause found in it , then forsoth a deuise was had , for the staying of it , vnder pretence , that now it was thought more meete , that there should be a harmonie made of all the confessions of diuers churches . Derelig . pa. 218 But Zanchius himselfe maketh this the chiefe cause ( if I vnderstand him ) why his booke dyd mislike some of them : for that hee had written , as before is mentioned , of Bishops . For so hee sayth , Magnus quidam vir , &c. A certaine great man , ( meaning Beza , as it is supposed , ) did write vnto mee of this matter , as followeth . Your confession was read by mee and N. & others , with great delight . It is written most learnedly , and in a most exquisite methode , and ( if you except that which you adde towards the end , touching Archbishops and the Hierarchie ) mihi summopere placuit , it pleased mee exceedingly .

Vpon this occasion ( as it seemeth ) Zanchius printed his said confession , with certaine annotations . In the which annotations , he sheweth three reasons , for his allowance of Archbishops & Bishops . The first , is grounded vpon the practise of the primitiue church presently after the Apostles times : the second is , for that hee thought it his dutie in the draught of his said booke , to haue regard to those reformed churches which retaine both Bishops & Archbishops : and the third , because all the reformed Churches generally , although they haue chaunged the names , yet in effect they doe keepe the authoritie : as where they haue superintendents , and generall superintendents : Nay ( saith he ) where these new , & base Latine names are not admitted , Ibi tamen solent esse aliquot primarij , penes quos fere tota est authoritas : yet there are in those places vsually certaine chiefemen , that doe in a manner beare all the sway . But I pray you be pleased that I may deliuer vnto you , the maner of his setting down of his first reason , and that in his owne words : for they carry with them a notable condemnation of other mens great pride & rashnes . Cum haenc conscriberem fidei confessionem , &c. When I writ this confession of faith , I writ all the thinges in it of a good conscience : and as I beleeued , so I freely spake the scriptures , teaching men so to doe . And my faith first of all , and simply , doth rely vpon the word of God , & then somewhat also vpon the common consent of the whole ancient Catholicke Church , if the same bee not repugnant to the scriptures . For I beleeue that what thinges were defined and receiued by the auncient Fathers assembled in the name of the Lord , with a generall consent of them all , and without any contradiction of the holy Scriptures , the same surely , although they be not of the same authoritie with holy Scriptures , yet did they proceed from the holy Ghost . Heereof it commeth to passe , that those things which are of this nature , neither would I , neither dare I with a good conscience disallow them . And what can be shewed more certainly out of histories , out of the councels , & out of the writings of all the ancient fathers , then that those orders of Ministers , of the which we haue spoken , haue bene ordained and receiued in the Church , by the generall consent of all christian common-wealths . And who then am I that should presume to reproue that which the whole Church hath approued ▪ This is true and religious humilitie . Thus all graue and discreet godly men haue euerwritten . Those that contemne all the learned Fathers that went before them , doe open a windowe to their owne discredite by those that shall come after them . That which this godly and great learned man ascribeth to the holy Ghost , and durst not with a safe conscience reprooue : euerie sawcie Iacke with vs , euerie ignoraunt dolt , and euerie Bridewell rake-hell dare disdaine and condemne . Tell them of Fathers and Councels : they make but a mocke at it .

But as yet you know not the cause : why I haue especially alleadged all these things out of Zanchius . I will therefore now tell it you . And it is this . You haue heard how Beza and some others disliked of Zanchius confession , and wherefore . But now hee is come about , and is grown to be fully of Zanchius iudgement ; if a man may beleeue him . For wheras D. Sarauia had cited these places of Zanchius in the behalfe of Bishops , and Archbishops ; Beza contra Sarau . p. 161. M. Beza aunswered directly : that neither he nor his brethren doe dissent therein from Zanchius : à quo minimè certè dissentimus . But I may not conceale this from you ; that although Zanchius hath written so modestly of the callinges of Archbishops and Bishops : ( as it hath beene shewed ) , yet he rather fancied the new platform of Elderships : which Beza omitteth not to put Sarauia in minde of , when hauing yeelded to Zanchius his saide opinion of Bishops , he addeth other places out of him for his allowance of the Eldership : and then concludeth ; Beza contra Sarau . p. 164. Si Zanchio assentiris , qua de re contendimus ? If you agree with Zanchius , where about contend wee ▪ Wherby I obserue into what a streight Beza is brought . For notwithstanding any thing that hee hath written formerly against such Bishops & Archbishops , as professe the Gospell : he can now bee content to reuoke it wholy , so as they at Geneua may holde their Elderships . He hath so farre ingaged his credit for that kind of gouernment , as gladly he would preserue the reputation of it . But he seeth ( I am perswaded ) it will not bee , and that the equality they haue dreamed of , tendeth to confusion , & therefore he beginneth to retire himself from that conceit , as well as he may . It is much ( his former proceedings considred ) that euer he could be brought to Zanchius moderation . But yet hee commeth neerer vnto vs ; for although his Bishop of man found so small fauour with him before , as that hee made him the roote of iniquitie , and needs he must be plucked vp : yet now he is much more fauorable vnto him ( if I vnderstande him , ) and saith he calleth him the Bishop of man , non simpliciter , Beza contra Sara . pag. 143 sed comparatè , not simply , but by way of comparison , in respect ( he meaneth ) of his Bishop of God . Now he acknowledgeth him to haue had place in the church euer since S. Marks time : and that one was so chosen ( saith he ) certè reprehendi nec potest nec debet : assuredly it neither can nor ought to be reprehended . Nay , hee affirmeth : Iustis de causis fieri debuit , Beza contra Sara . pag. 153. That for iust causes it was necessarie : Vt vnusquispiam & e. presbyterio 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 esset & permaneret : That some one should be the Prelate ouer the presbyterie , ( not for a day or an action , as Cartwright saith ) but to remaine and continue : allowing well of S. Ieromes reason , why such a choise ought to bee made , vz. In remedium schismatis , for the remedy of schismes .

But one thing remaineth , which passeth all the rest . You shall see that for all the former stormes ; Beza could be very well content at the length ( if he might ) to be in effect an Archbishop . Doctor Sarauia , amongst diuers other proofes , for the calling and authoritie of Bishops ; bringes an order out of the Apostles Canons , so called because of their antiquitie . First you shall see it : and then also heare Maister Bezas iudgement for the matter of it . Canon Apost. cap. 35. The Bishoppes of euery nation ought to knowe , who is the chiefe amongst them , and to account him as it were their heade , without whose allowance they ought to doe nothing of any moment , but euery one those things onely , which belong to his owne parish , and the villages which are vnder it ▪ Neither let himselfe doe any thing without the knowledge of all . Beza contra Sarau . p. 115. 116. For so there shall bee concord , and God shall be glorified through our Lord in his holy spirit . Thus far the Canon : whereof Beza writeth in this sort . There is here mention made of him , that was the chiefe amongst his fellow Bishops , who was afterward called the Archbishop . And a little after speaking of the same Canon . Quid aliud hic statuitur , quam ordo ille , quem in omnibus locis ecclesiis restitutum cupimus ▪ What els is here appointed , than that order which wee desire should bee restored to the Churches in all places ▪ And is not the spirituall gouernement of Geneua as yet in her perfection ▪ Haue they rashly ouerthrown there such Offices of the Church , as nowe they would gladly should be restored againe ? Those Churches that haue followed Bezas humor , in the abolishing of their Bishops , and Archbishops , may they not iustly wish he had neuer beene borne ? It is an easie matter to ouerthrow : but he and they all , shall find it a most difficult thing to build vp againe . Haue they pleaded so long for an aequalitie amongst all Ministers , that now they can be content to be as it were the heades & chiefe ouer the Bishops within the same countries ?

Well , the conclusion is this : Either Beza writ not the Epistles mentioned to Duditius and Knox , ( though hee hath set them out in his owne name : ) or , what hee writ in them against Bishops & Archbishops ; he meant should bee onely extended against popish Bishops and Archbishops , ( & then Cartwright hath done him great iniurie , in affirming that hee meant our Bishoppes : ) or , he is not the author of the treatise of the three sortes of Bishops , ( albeit he calleth it , Scriptum meum , my discourse : and saith as much in effect in his annotations vpon the Epistle to the Philippians : ) or , Beza to Law● . Annot. Philip. 1. verse . 1. he supposeth in that treatise , that there were popish Bishops , and Archbishops , before , and at the time that the Councell of Nice was helde ; ( when in all the world there was neither popery nor popish Bishop : ) or , hee was ignoraunt , that Field had translated the saide treatise into English , and that it was published amongst the brethren here , and held for currant doctrine : or , by his agreeing with Zanchius ; by his writing ( as hee doth ) to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury : by his allowing the choise of one Minister , to haue a permanent office of primacie ouer the rest : by his wishing the restitution of the orders mentioned in the Apostles Canons : by these thinges and the rest , specified , ( being throughly considered . ) or ( as I said ) hee hath now altered his opinion ( whatsoeuer hee hath written els where to the contrary ) or els you must take him as you find him . For my part , I will thinke the best : & that he hath been formerly abused very greatly by slaunderous reportes , which caused him to write as he hath done .

But , howsoeuer this course against Bishops hath been carried on hitherto amongst them : God bee thanked for some amendment . And lette vs take holde of that which they haue granted . You may be bold to build vpon it for a truth : that they are so constrained to yeeld vnto . And then to ende this chapter : Forasmuch as God himselfe , appointed an inequalitie amongst the Priestes in the olde Testament : Forasmuch as Christ , though he calleth himselfe a Minister , to minister vnto others , was yet the Maister ouer his Apostles and Disciples : Forasmuch as by Christs institution , and in his owne time , the Apostles were superior vnto the seuentie Disciples : Forasmuch as the Apostles when the gospell began to spread it selfe , appointed sundry Timothies & Titus , to gouerne the Churches in diuerse countries and territories : Forasmuch as all the ecclesiasticall histories , doe record the superioritie of Bishops , and doe sette downe , the Catalogues of many of them , and which of the Apostles and Apostolicall Bishops , and in what cities & countries they succeeded : Forasmuch as all the ancient generall Councels , & all the ancient and godly learned Fathers , haue allowed of Bishops , and of their superiority ouer the rest of the clergie : Forasmuch as Bishops haue been accounted generally throughout the world , to be the Apostles successors , & haue continued in the Church euer since the Apostles times : Forasmuch as there was neuer any one of all the auncient Fathers , nor any learned man for 1500. yeres but Aerius the heretike , that euer held , that there ought to bee no difference betwixt a Bishop & a Priest , ( I meane an ordinary Minister of the word : ) and that his opinion was imputed vnto him 1200. yeeres since by Epiphanius and S. Augustine , for an heresie : Forasmuch as all the chiefe of the learned men that were the principall instruments vnder God in this latter age , for the restitution of the Gospell , allowed fullie of Bishoppes , and of their authoritie , and would not willingly haue submitted themselues to their obedience , if they might haue bene receiued with anie tollerable conditions : Forasmuch as all the reformed Churches in Germanie , that doo imbrace the Augustane confession , haue ( for the most part ) their superintendents and generall superintendents , the same in effect with our Bishops & Archbishops : Forasmuch as the chiefest of the Germain writers now liuing , do iustifie the calling & offices of their superintendents , and generall superintendents by the word of God . Forasmuch as none of later times euer condemned the calling and authoritie of such Bishops and Archbishops , as imbraced the Gospell ( for ought I finde ) but Beza and his schollers . Forasmuch as Zanchius , a fauorer of the Elderliship equalitie , and now Beza himselfe ioyning with him , do both of them confesse , that the calling and authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops may be defended : that they did proceed from the holy Ghost , and that there is nothing more manifest in all the Ecclesiasticall histories , all the ancient councels , and in the writings of all the ancient fathers , then the allowance of them , throughout all christendome : Forasmuch as Beza for his own part , hath written so honorably to the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury , and so generally of all our Bishops now professing the Gospell , condemning those of great arrogancie , that shall presume to speak against them : Forasmuch as you perceiue by Bezaes confession , that there ought to be Bishops or Prelates , such as were in the Church from S. Markes time , for the auoiding and staying of contentions and schismes . And forasmuch ( I saie ) as all these particular points , are in sort , as you haue heard , the most of them confessed , & the rest by diuerse learned men proued to be true , & so still alwaies to be iustified , with as ful consent and authoritie , as may satisfie anie men , either of learning or iudgement : I see no reason why this Anabaptisticall dreame , of equality amongst pastors , should not be sent backe to the place from whence it issued : why the vrgers of it , with such bitternesse , ought to bee accounted otherwise off , than hereby , I trust , you may see they deserue : why Cartwright , and his libelling generation , against the present forme of our Church-gouernment , should be anie longer indured : or why any calling in the world , next vnto the calling of euery Moses and soueraigne , within their owne dominions , should be more esteemed , cherished , reuerenced , or honored , by all true christians , then the callings , offices , & authoritie of Bishops , and Archbishops : hauing so generall & continuall an allowance , both of God himselfe , and of all godly and rightly zealous men , euer since there was any outward forme of church gouernment appointed .

CHAP. IX . They disagree verie greatly concerning Doctors .

IT is now become , to be a receiued opinion , especially amongst those that desire to haue the kingdome of the pretended Elderships , to raigne ouer them : that S. Paul in the fourrh to the Ephesians , doth make the Doctor , a distinct office , from the Pastor , contrarie to the iudgement of S. Augustine , Hierome , Chrisostome , Bullinger , Musculus , &c. who make them but one office , euen as feeding and teaching , are all one . Of this deuise ( for ought I do remember ) Caluin was the first author ; whose conceit Beza followeth . And then it may not be meruailed , though all the rest of that humor , do faithfully imbrace it . Of this office , our reformers ( all of them ioyntly ) do carry this resolute opinion : Trau . def. of dis. T.C. that it is a distinct ordinance of Christ , to continue in the Church for euer : that there ought to be a Doctor in euery Parish , wheresoeuer there is a Pastor : that the doctor is one of the members of the body of Christ : that the doctor is one of those officers , to whom the gouernment of the Church ( by Christs appointment ) is committed : & that consequently , he hath by the same authoritie his place & voice in the Consistorie , as wel & by as good right , as either the pastor or Elder .

So as , if there be anie reformed churches in the world ( where there are pastors ) that haue not these doctors , & which do not admit them , to haue anie such authoritie , nor giue them either place or voice in their consistories , then surely all those , and many such like speeches following , do euen as properly fall vpon them , as they do vpon our church , against the which they were first coined , and vttered . Learned dis. pa. 17.18 . They refuse the ordinance of God . They depriue the Church of the free gift of Christ : T.C. l. 2.465 . 463. they purpose , not to haue the Church flourish in true knowledge . They want some necessarie guifts which are tied necessarily to that office . Def. of dis. p. 12. The knowledge of the son of God ( being necessarie to saluation ) . Def. of dis. p. 54. The meanes thervnto are absolutely necessarie : T.C. l. 1. which is the hauing of pastors and doctors , Demonst. cap. 3 so long as men are subiect to ignorance : The church is miserably destitute ; that wanteth the doctor . They cannot take awaie those ministeries , that God hath placed in his Church . No christian Churches , ought to swarue from the officers ( he nameth doctors ) that God hath appointed . Mart. Thes. Godly ser. 40.41 Def. of dis. p. 16. If they do , they maime the Church , they take away a member from the bodie of Christ : they maime his bodie and deforme it . Which , after the manner of their amplifications , is a matter of as great importance , as the addition of anie new officers , vnto the Church , or vnto the bodie of Christ , making it thereby , both waies , a monster .

There is a saying of Will Summer , that whosoeuer pinched him , he wold be sure to strike him that stood next him . And I cannot more fitly resemble our reformers rashnes . Things go not here as they would haue them , which pincheth them ; & therupon whilest they would be reuenged vppon those that hinder their plots , then ( laying about them like mad men ) haue stroke one for another : and so ( as in such cases it oft falleth out ) haue maimed verie sore their next and best friends . For I do not remember , that either Geneua , France , the low Countries , or Scotland , do so account of Doctors , as our men do . They recken them not among those officers , that Christ hath appointed for the gouernment of the church . They haue no places or voices , but of curtesie , in their consistories : their Senates , or glorious body of Christ , is without them ; and yet they esteeme of themselues , to be as perfect and entire bodies , as comely , & of as beautifull a stature , as our platformers , ( their scollers ) can deuise , and counterfeit anie . But heare theyr owne wordes .

The Ecclesiasticall discipline of France , speaketh in this sort : Of the Consistorie . The Elders and Deacons do make the Ecclesiasticall Senate , wherein the Ministers of the word sit as chiefe . And after , thus of doctors ( as I take it . ) The professors of diuinity may bee admitted into the consistory . It is also thus decreed in the nationall councell held in Hage 1586. Artic. 34. In all churches the consistorie shall be compounded of Ministers & elders . By Ministers they meane pastors , as it appeareth there afterwards , in the 74. article . In Scotland likewise , the managing of their discipline , The forme , &c. printed 1584. is wholy in the handes of their pastors and Aldermen . They make mention indeed of doctors ; but yet so , as their consistories , may bee perfect inough without them . And I see no other office assigned there , vnto them , then to be schoole-masters , or to reade Lectures in the vniuersities . I finde it reported in like sorte ; that at Geneua , Beza is both pastor and doctor . Furthermore , Caluin is of opinion , Remonst. p. 14● Cal. Instit. l. 4. c. 3. sect. 4. that the Doctor hath not to deale with the administration of Discipline . And it is apparant by the lawes of Geneua , & of that schoole , that ( sauing now it falleth out , Beza is the Rector of the school ) , otherwise the doctor , as doctor , ( for any thing I finde ) is not of the consistorie : at the least ( I suppose ) that many are not . Lawes of Geneua . For they saie , that as things are now disposed , they comprehend vnder this title of Doctors , &c. the order of schooles , teachers of tongues , and of humane sciences , as well as teachers of diuinitie .

But Bertrand is plaine and direct : Treatise of the Church . cap. 9 The Doctors charge ( sayth he ) reacheth not to the charge of gouernment , and execution of discipline , &c. Againe , Ibidem cap. 14. The Consistorie , is composed , made , and consisteth , of the Pastors , and Elders . Wherevnto also are admitted and receiued , the doctors and Deacons : so farre forth , and in as much , as they shall iudge it to bee expedient , &c. Sohnius also saith . Ope. to . 1. p. 224. Doctores non habebant Ecclesiae inspectionem aut gubernationem . The Doctors had not the ouer-sight or rule of the Church : but were like to the catechisors and teachers of young-linges ; Dan. Isag. part. 3. cap. 54. which were afterward appointed . Danaeus , declaring that the administration of their discipline , doth onely belong to their Pastors and Elders , telleth vs also ( and that from Geneua ) that for a neede they may take Deacons into theyr Consistories : but doth not once so much as name the Doctor to be a man worthie of anie such fauour . To. 7. ob . pa. 257 Vezelius likewise sendeth vs worde from Newstade , that the Doctors office is not amongst the ordinarie functions , which are to be perpetuall in the Church ; and that it doth rather appertaine to the schooles . Eccl. li. 2. cap. 1 & 5. Franciscus Iunius ( a principall consistorian ) is also most resolute , that the Doctor hath not to deale in the Ecclesiasticall gouernment , but onely in the scholasticall : and that his office is not otherwise an ecclesiasticall office , but as schooles are Seminaria Ecclesiae , the Seminaries of the Church ; and so schoole-masters , ecclesiastical officers . Whose dutie ( saith Bannosius ) is to teach youth , De pol. ciui . Dei . cap. 9 not as Pastors do in their common language , sed Graeco , Latino , & Hebraeo , but in Latine , Greeke , and Hebrue . And for anie place in their Elderships , Chap. 10 he assigneth them none : making their Consistories to consist onely , of Pastors , Deacons , and Elders .

Now , if these things be true , which heere I haue reported , is it not wonderfull , with what faces Cartwright and the rest , dare tell vs so confidently , of such necessity of their pretended doctors , as before I haue noted ▪ Do all the reformed Churches which they brag of , dwell in such darknesse , as that they deforme and mayme Christs bodie , and knowe it not ▪ Nay , peraduenture if they bee pressed ouer eagerly with these examples and testimonies , they will not sticke , to tell either Geneua , or the best of them all , another manner of tale . Where it is obiected , agaynst the great necessitie of Doctors , which is pretended , that , some Churches haue them not : aunswere is made , that Sacraments are verie profitable , and yet sometime the Church cannot haue them : Def. of dis. p. 69 and that , although they are not simplie , and absolutely necessarie to saluation : yet so necessarie they are , as the contempt and wilfull neglect of them , is damnable . And there is theyr aunswere : implying ( forsooth ) such a lyke necessitie of his Doctors , as though , none coulde bee saued , that contemned this fancie of theirs . Which aunswere , is puffed vp with an hereticall humour , of condemning all men , that doo withstand them ; or , if his dearest friend should speake for him , the best sense that it can possiblie carrie , is this : that those who incounter with these Doctors , are , in his opinion , but sillie and ignoraunt persons . For otherwise , if they knewe but as much as hee , and his companions doo knowe , and shoulde resist these officers , there were then no remedie with them , by his diuinitie , but fall they must needes , within the same daunger , that remayneth for such , as contemne the holy Sacramentes . So , as if hee escape the sayde imputation , of that hereticall humour , of condemning : yet another marke thereof sticketh faster , both vppon him and his fauourers , then ( I feare ) they will easily shake off from them ; and that is , pride , and an ouer-weening of themselues , and their owne learning . But it is a shame , that such insolencie is not more carefully repressed . They haue rashly written , they knowe not what ; and for their reputations , ( with most ridiculous obstinacie , euen agaynst Gods forbod , all the world in effect impugning them ) yet they will needes looke bigge on the matter , and blush not . In their first admonition , they themselues did most faithfully ( after their manner ▪ ) assure the high Court of parliament , Admon . 4 that the officers , which had to deale in the Ecclesiasticall discipline , ( by them at that time vrged so vehemently ) were Pastors , Elders and Deacons . And after , To these three ioyntly , the Ministers , Seniors , and Deacons , is the whole regiment of the Church committed . So as then , these parochiall Doctors , were cleane out of request . And is not this the lightnes , 2. Corinth . 1.17 and fleshly minde , which the Apostle renounceth , in that they come thus vnto vs , with yea , and nay .

But as yet you see not all the vncertainties , follies , iarres , Eccle. pa. 95 squaringes , and contradictions , which I finde about this matter , Iunius saith , that of doctors , some were prophets , & some were doctors . Beza , he holdeth that S. Pauls meaning , was to diuide Prophets , into Pastors & , doctors . Whose diuisions or opinions cannot both bee true ; if the rules of diuision be duly obserued . For by the first , euery prophet is a doctor : and by the second , euery doctor is a prophet . Furthermore , as Iunius very cunningly will draw , both a prophet and a doctor , out of a doctor , Def. of dis. p. 61 & as Beza wringeth the doctor out of the prophet : so Trauerse he can fetch him out of a Bishop . Of Bishops ( saith he ) some are pastors , and some are doctors . By whose extraction , euery Geneua school-master ( that teacheth but petits ) is now become a Bishop . And peraduenture I doe espie his pollicie in it .

A great while it went vnchecked amongst them , for an Ecclesiastical canon ( as though the king of Persia had made it ) , that a Doctor was inferior to the Pastor , and to holde the second place . But since it was better considered of , & wisely foreseene , that Cartwright & some others , might more safely take vpon them the office of doctors , then of pastors ( who are tied more strictly to the obseruation of diuers ceremonies ▪ ) they seeme to mee , to bee quite come about , and to assigne the first place mentioned , vnto the Doctor : & so no maruaile if they make him a Bishop . Pag. 15. The office of teaching ( saith the learned discourser ) is the chiefe & principal office in the church . And afterward . The office of a Doctor is to teach . With whom the godly Sermoner seemeth to agree , when he saith : Pag. 73. Mans soule hath two parts : vz. reason , or the minde ; and the hart , or the affection . By the fall of Adam there is darknes in the mind , and rebellion in the hart . Now the Lord , to cure these diseases , hath giuen remedie to his Church : First a Doctor to teach vs , and then a Pastor to exhort vs , &c. And Fenner-likewise , Sacrae Theolog. Pag. 275. doth place the Doctor before the Pastor .

But of this matter I haue no great regard : whether soeuer goeth first , as proud commeth after . And peraduenture , they haue some way to shift it . I will not therfore stand greatly vppon it : especially , hauing some other of their Doctoral points to aduertise you of : which are of greater importaunce . For as yet , they are not agreed , ( for any thing I can find ) whether their Doctors in that they are Doctors , bee Ministers , to take ( as wee commonly speake ) the cure and charge of soules vpon them , in particular parishes , or not . In the whole treatise of the discipline of Fraunce : the rules and orders sette downe for making of Ministers , doe belong altogether vnto such as our men tearme Pastors . And the same course is also held , in the seruice booke of Scotland . But most plaine it is , in the generall Synode of Hage , ( vz. that Doctors are not such Ministers ) where hauing set downe ( after the newest fashion ) the foure functions left vs ( as they say ) by Christ : vz. Pastors , Doctors , Elders , and Deacons : it presently followeth in this manner : Art 3. Nemo sine legitima vocatione , &c. No man ought to take vpon him to preach , or administer the sacraments without a lawfull calling ; although he be a Doctor , an Elder , or a Deacon . Whereby it appeareth ( as I said ) that their Doctors in some places beyond the seas , are no Ministers , without some further calling . Dis. eccles. sac . cap. 1. &c. And yet our English reformers , are generally of another iudgement ; making Ministers of the worde to comprehend , aswell Doctors , as Pastors : as it appeareth in all their seuerall treatises . I will not quote any other places , than their subscribed new draught of discipline : Dis eccles sac. cap. 1. and their Captaines resolution : T.C. l. 1. pag. 85. &c. that the officers mentioned Ephes. 4. were all of them , assuredly , Ministers of the word .

Lastly , if they should bee able in time to compasse this point : that their Doctors , by vertue of that calling , might goe for such Ministers ; yet a new controuersie thereupon ariseth , not inferiour to any of the rest : vz. whether it appertaineth to these kinde of Ministers of the word , to be Ministers also of the sacraments . Caluin thinketh , Inst. lib. 4. cap. 3. sect. 4. that this is a part of the difference betweene the Pastor and the Doctor : Quod Doctores , nec disciplinae , nec sacramentorum administrationi praesunt : That Doctors haue neither to deale with the discipline ' , nor with the administration of sacraments . But Cartwright ( little esteeming Caluins iudgement in this matter ) is most earnest to the contrary : who grounding himself ( as he would seem ) vpon diuers reasons , examples , and authorities , giueth out these Oracles . T.C. l. 1. p. 139. The Ministers of the word & sacraments , cannot be pulled in sunder . It is a perpetuall ordinance ; that the same should bee the Ministers of the worde , and sacraments . These wordes are plaine inough , to expresse a mans mind . But you may not giue any faith vnto him . For ( as I suppose ) hee hath altered his iudgement . And yet , if you will peruse the place ; you shall not finde him more peremptorie , in any one point , throughout all his writings .

In the new draught of discipline ( wherunto he hath subscribed , ) it is thus defined . The Church-officers are first the Ministers of the worde , &c. And those are Pastors , Qui doctrinam & sacramenta administrant ; Who administer doctrine and the sacraments : or Doctors , Qui versantur in sana doctrina docenda , & conuincendis erroribus ; Who are occupied in teaching of wholesome doctrine , and in confuting of errors . And thus his second sort of Ministers of the word , is quite debarred , and cut off , from the administration of the sacraments . Not to gratifie , I suppose , either Caluin , or the truth : but because it concerneth most , their owne present estate . For as the Doctor , for their sakes , began to be aduanced a steppe higher than he was before : so is hee now likewise ( as I imagine ) in the same respect , disburdened of that base office . They can finde in their harts , to preach : but , vrge them to administer the sacraments , and their common answere is this : we haue nothing to doe with that duetie : it belongeth to the Pastors , and we are Doctors . The matter is ; they will not obserue the orders of the Church , in the administration of sacramentes : whereupon it is now come to passe , that there may bee certaine Ministers of the worde , who haue not authoritie to administer the sacramentes . Prouerb . 5. ● . But let them goe . They haue not written truth , in the tables of their harts : and therefore she hath forsaken them .

CHAP. XII . They cannot agree where to find their Elders qualities described .

I Thinke it can hardly be shewed in the scriptures : that God himselfe did euer ordaine any speciall officers , either ecclesiastical , or ciuill : but he likewise appointed , what maner of men they should bee , in respect of their abilities and vertues , for their faythfull discharging of them . Which maketh mee , more than to suspect , that these pretended Elders , for all the outcries made in their behalfe : to be indeed but counterfaits ; in that they cannot agree among themselues , where they are described . The forme of praier made at Geneua , Learned dis. pag. and practised in Scotland , and with diuers alterations , offered not long since , to haue beene ( by parliament ) established in England , & others that follow them , do thus describe them . The Elders must bee men of good life , and godly conuersation , without blame and all suspition , carefull for the flocke , wise , and aboue all things , fearing God .

And for all these qualities , the chiefe place alledged ( as I thinke ) is out of Numbers : Numb. 11. 16. 17. 24. 25. where it is saide , That God appointed Moses to choose 70. men of the Elders of Israell to beare the burthen of the people with him : which Moses hauing performed , the Lord , according to his former promise , tooke of the spirite , which was in Moses , and put it vpon the 70. ancient men , & when the spirit rested vpon them , they prophecied , and did not cease . Out of which words , I find nothing for them : except they wil haue them Prophets . But I do here dispute nothing , let them speak for themselues . Welsurely , then saith a discouerer of vntruths , that came lately from Scotland : Pag. 8.6.8 . They are ignoraunt in the cause of Christes gouernment , that will affirme these were Ecclesiasticall officers . The very place it selfe , and all the circumstances thereof , doe prooue them ciuile . And where it is said that the seuenty Elders prophecied , it can no more prooue them to belonge to the gouernement of the Church , then the like gift bestowed vpon Saul can make him a Church officer .

Bannosius , he relieth not vppon the booke of Numbers , for this matter : but if you will be content with Exodus , he can fet them thence with a wet finger : marry you must haue it by way of collection . Si ex praecepto Domini &c. If by the Lords commandement the gouernours of the common wealth of the Hebrewes , were men of courage , fearing God , men dealinge truely , hating coueteousnes , multo magis tales esse debent Presbyteri &c. Much more these Elders ought to be such valiant men . In good time . And other place out of the old Testament for this purpose he nameth not any : which sheweth he was brought to a very low ebbe .

There is a description of the visible Church , which ( they say ) was printed at Rochell : Wherein these Elders are thus described . They must be of iudgment and wisedome , endued with the sprite of God , able to discerne betweene cause and cause , betweene plea and plea &c: and to that end , besides the place of Numbers mentioned , they quote another out of the Chronicles , where Iehosophat , speaking of the iudges of the high Court , 2. Chro. 19.9 10. for all causes at Ierusalem saith : thus shall yee doe in the seat of the Lord , faithfully and with a perfect heart , and in euery cause that shall come vnto you , from your brethren that dwell in theyr cities : betweene bloud and bloud , betweene lawe and precept , statutes and iudgement yee shall iudg them . Where I note , the warines of these fellowes , in attributing vnto their Elders Commission to discerne betweene cause and cause , plea and plea ; that they leaue out purposely , betweene bloud and bloud &c. For the which Beza will not giue them any thankes at all : hauing deuised a tricke ( as after it shall appeare ) how they may deale in those matters , aswell as in the other . Indeed in all alike . But this place rather serueth to shew their opinions , what causes the Elders are to be Iudges in , then to describe their qualities , otherwise then that they must be faithfull men . They will play smal play befor they sit out . And thus you haue what they bring to this end ( for ought I finde ) out of the old Testament : with such good agreement as hath beene declared , Which causeth me to imagin that the Lord neuer thought of any such officers , in the time of the Law . For if he had : Moses surely ( in mine opinion ) would haue described their qualities : aswell as he did the 70. Iudges and other officers ( to diuers purposes ) by him appointed , and not haue lefte them ( especially such noble Prelates and Cherubins ) to be described in this sort : hit I , misse I , by gesse .

But peraduenture , there are more pregnant places in the new Testament , to supply some want in Moyses : whereuppon they doe iumpe with one consent and good agreement together . I would be glad to see that : but he liueth not , I am perswaded that shall euer see it . When proude men dissent : they are hardly reconciled in matters of wit and learning . De polit. 71. Let vs try them . The qualities required to bee in an Elder , are sette downe by the Apostle in the Epistle to Titus ( saith Bannosius ) and some others , in these wordes thus in effect . An Elder must be vnreprouable , the husbande of one wife , Tit. 1. hauing faithfull children , which are not slaundered of riotte , neyther are disobedient , not frowarde , not angry , not giuen to wine , no striker , not giuen to filthy lucre , but harbarous , one that loueth goodnesse , wise , righteous , holy , temperate , &c. Nay ( sayth Caluin ) though there be two kindes of Elders , Cal. in Tit. yet contextus statim ostendit , hic non alios quàm Doctores intelligi , hoc est , qui ad docendum ordinabantur : The Text doth shew , that here no other are to be vnderstood , but Doctors , that is those that were ordayned to teach . Ecclesiasticus pag. 64.68 . With Bannosius agreeth Iunius , T. C. lib. 3. pag. 35. and with Caluin , Cartwright . So that as yet we haue no certainty . But let Beza be heard , and then all shall be well . You shall heare , Iunius Ecclesiasti . 6 8. both Beza and Iunius iointly . They are out of all doubt , that where the Apostle in his Epistle to Timothy , Beza annot. 1. Tim 3.1 . doth describe the qualities , which are required in a Bishop , there also and in the same wordes , he setteth out the Elder in like maner : For that the word ( Bishop ) doth comprehend in that place , both a Minister of the word , and the ruling Elder also . Now then we haue him : and because we haue beene so long seeking for him , you shall haue him at large , according to these mens opinions . He that desireth the office of a ruling Elder , desireth a good worke . A ruling Elder therefore must be vnreprooueable , the husbande of one wife , watching , sober , modest , harbarous , apt to teach , not giuen to wine , no striker , not giuen to filthy lucre , but gentle , no fighter , not couetous , one that can rule his own house honestly , hauing children vnder obedience with all honesty : for if any man can not rule his owne house , howe shall hee care for the Churche of God ? Hee may not bee a young Scholler , least hee being puffed vppe , fall into the damnation of the Diuell . Hee must also bee well reported of , euen of them that are without , least hee fall into rebuke and the snare of the Diuell . There is not a Shoomaker in Geneua , but he is such a one ye may be sure : and in England you may haue a dozen of them in euery parish .

But may we now indeede , rest in these mens opinions ▪ Doe what you list . But Caluin and Trauerse are directly against them . For Caluin neuer comprehendeth , the only ruling Elder , vnder the word Bishop : and vppon this place of Timothy , he maketh Pastor & Bishop , words of one signification : as he doth also vpon the 1. to the Philippians , and the first to Titus : which quite excludeth this counterfaite Elder , from shrowding himselfe here vnder the Bishop . With Caluin also agreeth herein , Disc. Eccle. fol. 57.58.65 . and 101. Pag. 61. our peragon Trauerse , euen in all the places cited : as likewise the author of the defence of Ecclesiastical discipline ( whether it be Trauers or not ) saying : they cannot be here contayned vnder the name of BB.

And where shall we then finde them ? It is a plaine case ( saith Trauerse : ) where should we finde them but where they are ▪ Ibidem . They are contained in that Epistle to Timothy , vnder the name of Deacons . Nay sayth maister Caluin , where Sainct Paul speaketh of Deacons , quod alij ad Presbyteros referunt Episcopo inferiores , caret fundamento : in that some referre it to Elders that are inferior to the Bishop , it wanteth a foundation . Restat vt Diaconos intelligamus , quorum mentionem facit Lucas Act 6. . Sunt qui curam pauperum habebant . It remaineth that wee vnderstande those Deacons of whome mention is made Act. 6. And those were they that had the care of the poore committed vnto them . But now commeth in M. Cartwright on the behalfe of his pupill Trauers : saying in effect . It is true that Caluin was a learned man in his time : Lib 3. pag. 34 but yet herein Trauers doth seeme to bee of the sounder opinion . These be his wordes : In the worde Deacons ( as it is well obserued in the booke of the Discipline of Englande ) the Apostle comprehendeth both the Elders , and those which had the Almes to dispose . Indeede maister Cartwright is a fellow for a dead lifte . For if I vnderstand him wel , he wil haue his Elders described , both vnder the nams of Bishops & of Deacons : as though they were , a thirde thing compounded of them both . Lib. 3. p. 54. I haue shewed ( saith he ) that both they and their office be there : which is the same with the Bishops : that onely of teaching excepted . But Iunius , when he sorteth them with the ministers of the worde , leaueth not out that point as impertinent to them : Eccles. 69. but maketh them 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , apte to teach . From whome ( as I take it ) Beza dissenteth not much , Anno. 1. Cor. 12.8 . when speaking of these Elders , hee saith : qui & ipsi interdum doctrinae verbo praeerant , euen they somtimes did preach the word . Thes. Geneu . pa. 217. And Abraham Henric , is direct : presbyteris , peculialiter sic appellatis , verbi quoque administratio commissa est , &c. The administration of the word is also giuen to the Elders peculiarly so called , &c: but to another end then to Pastors and Doctors : vz: vt iudicijs ecclesiasticis , praeeuntibus pastoribus praesint : that next after the Pastors they might beare rule in their ecclesiasticall iudgementes , or courtes of iustice .

This Henric may meane well : but to my seeming hee doth not well expresse himselfe . Maister Beza can open this point more directly . Indeede he hath so opened it , as he hath already almost vndone his Elders . For now by his statutes of Geneua , the twelue Elders , must all be preachers . This mysterie was neuer reuealed , so directly to the world before , as I thinke till nowe of late . The Elders wee speake of , ( saith Maister Beza ) do feede the church with doctrine , being ioyned with the Pastors and Doctors , in the exercise of ecclesiasticall iudgementes . Yea what differeth that publicke preaching of the word , which is proper to Pastors , from that which is exercised in the Consistories , according as it is meete , that some should be conuinced , some instructed , some reproued , or some comforted , sauing in this , that the Pastor preacheth publickly to the assembly , and the Elders but to priuate men , being called into the Consistory ? If their Pastors preach no better in their Pulpets , then I imagine their Artizan preachers doe , in their Elderships : peraduenture he that should say their preaching were but pratling , might sometimes say it truely .

But what should we respect any of these fellowes : let vs followe Cartwright and Trauerse ( in the point they agree in ) and through their spectacles , beholde : howe these Elders are to be furnished , vnder the shadowe of Deacons . They must bee honest , not double tongued , not giuen to muche wine , neither to filthy lucre , hauing the mystery of faith in pure conscience : Tim. 3.8.9.10 11.12.13 . And let them first be proued , then let them minister if they be found blamelesse : Likewise their wiues must be honest , not euill speakers , but sober and faithfull in all thinges . They must be the husbandes of one wife , and such as can rule their children well , and their owne housholdes . For they that haue ministred well , get themselues a good degree , and great liberty in the faith , which is in Christ Iesus .

And thus you haue your Elders , with their compleat armour , layd out before you : after this and that mans fashion , agreeing as iustly , as Germanes lippes together . But I may not omit one thing , before I ende this point . It may peraduenture seeme strange vnto you ( as surely it doth to me ) that anie men of iudgement : ( whether they will haue their Elders indued , with those qualities that were required in the 70. chapter of Exodus , or in the Iudges , Numbers , 2. or in the Bishops , or in the Deacons , Tim. 3. and Tit. 1. ) should but once dreame , that there might so many men of such vertue and qualities be found in a kingdome , as might supply euery parish with six , or eight of them . But I will tell you what Cartwright faith for remedie heereof : T.C. lib. 1. pag. 180. beleeue him as your discretion shall direct you . When men are called ( faith hee ) to a lawfull and profitable calling , and especially to a publicke calling , God doth poure his giftes on that person , which is called so plentifully , that he is as it were sodainly made a new man . An excellent conceite . But to see my simplicitie . I euer thought , that where God appointeth , what maner of men ( for their giftes and qualities ) shoulde bee chosen , to such and such offices , there ought euer especiall care to be had , that none destitute of them , as neer as might be , should be admitted vnto them . And if I haue been deceaued herein , I maruaile howe it commeth to passe , that many men vnfit for their giftes , being vpon diuerse occasions more necessarie , then can happen for the choyse of their Elders , admitted into the ministery , such wants haue not been so plentifully supplied , and they sodainly become new men . But the rule holdeth of likelihood , only for their Elders . Ah hee meaneth ( I suppose , ) that God will take off the spirite , that is in him and the rest of their Pastors and doctors , and put it vppon them , as he did from Moses , for the 70. Numb . 2. and this you may beleeue when you heare them all prophesie . Surely ( for ought I can see , ) they haue not any suche aboundant store of the giftes of Gods spirite , that they can spare much to bee taken from them , except they shall be left wholly destitute . But it were good wee sent into Scotland , and some other Countries , to learne more certainly of this straunge metamorphosis , before we be too light of credite . For as I take it , we may not looke for such extraordinary matters nowe . And besides , I feare , if their Elders should receiue any portion of that spirite , which is in some reformers ; it will be of that which offred himselfe , to be a lying spirite in the mouthes of certaine Prophets : and then it were better for vs , they neuer prophesied .

CHAP. 17. Of their Aldermens ioynt office with the ministers , in binding , and loosing of sinnes , and of their disagreement therin .

T.C. lib. 1.183 Beza Daneus and the rest . COncerning their pretended authoritie , equall with their ministers , ( for their procedings are by voyces : ) in excommunication of the stubborne , and absolution of the repentant , will they trouble themselues , ( thinke you ) with any testimonies out of the old testament ? Indeede they affirme , that these censures , were resembled there ; by the authority of discerning bettwene the cleane and the vncleane , betwene the holy & vnholy , of shutting vp the leprous , and releasinge them , of purginge the vncleane , of cursing ( resembling bindding : ) of blessing ( resembling loosing &c. ) And be it so . But where is there mention in any such places , that your pretended Elders , had any authoritie to intermeddle with these matters ? Are they not , throughout the whole olde testament ; euermore ascribed to Aaron and his sonnes ? Nay , might any that were of other tribes , then of the tribe of Leui deale heerwithal ? Speake franckly & truly : might they so ? Beza could find no answere to this question , but Probabile est , it is probable they might : whereas I am perswaded , there are fewe assertions of greater absurditie ▪ or of lesse probabilitie . For the Leuites themselues , that were not of the sonnes of Aaron : had nothinge to doe in these thinges .

Discip. eccl. fol. 127. Trauers defininge what suspension is : saith : it is a commaundement or prohibition of an Elder , of abstaininge for a certaine time from the receauing of the Sacraments . For the proofe wherof , Ibid. he groundeth himselfe vpon this shadow , ( as hee termeth it ) : That by the law the vncleane and vncircumcised were prohibited the celebrating of the Passeouer , & entrance into the Temple . Which caused ( saith hee ) Ioiada the priest to appoynt certaine porters to the gates of the Temple . By which testimonies what hee else proueth ; then , that his Elders were of the number of these Porters ; I finde not . Beza de presb . pag. 102. And that surelye agreeth best , with Bezaes opion mentioned . Horum proculdubio partes erant &c. It was out of doubt the dutye of the Arch-rulers of the Synagogues , not to admitte excommunicated persons into the Synagogues .

With which offices , if they of that consorte , will bee content to infeoffe their Aldermen , and goe no further : I see no cause , why any man should greatly enuie them that preferment . But when from dore-keepers they must be so aduaunced , as that they must bee abdicators and comforters , as they terme them : that is more , then vpon such weake collections is fit to bee allowed of . For where they giue them these iointe offices with the Minister , of abdicating the stubborne , and of consolation of the repentant , if they would speake out , it is as much as though they should saie : that they haue equall authoritie with them , of suspension and excommunication , of bindinge and loosing , of retaining and remitting of sinnes . No no , they maie sende them to Parishgarden , to loose and bind beares , for they are farre vnmeet to haue anie such authoritie ouer mens soules . That those which were not Bishops , or Priestes ( that is ministers of the word and sacraments ) should haue that authoritie ( which they speake of ) , is a matter that was neuer heard of , in the Church of God for a 1500. yeares . Cartwright in handling this pointe , was able to bring for his purpose , but one pertinent authoritie , in shew , out of all the auncient Fathers : vz. out of Tertullian , of certaine Presidents , that shut offenders from praiers in the Congregation : which presidents as hee well knoweth , the same Tertullian saith expresslie , in an other place , were Ministers of the worde and sacraments : in these wordes , ( speaking of the Lordes supper ) : Nec de aliorum manu quàm presidentium sumimus , neyther do wee receaue at the handes of any other , but of the gouernours .

It is worthie the consideration , to see into what extremities , men do commonlie fall ; that will presume to builde the Church vppon the straw and stubble , of their owne deuises . All the world cannot perswade the papists , but that the keies of the kingdome of heauen , were onely giuen to Peter , and so to his successors ; and that from him the rest of the Apostles were to receaue them , and so must their successors from the Pope . Against whom , we insist , with the auncient Fathers ; that what was saide to Peter , Math. 16. Ioh. 20. appertained to them all : as namelie for one reason ; in that , where the keyes were promised to Peter : tibi dabo , I will giue them to thee : when this promise was performed , Christ gaue them vnto all the Apostles alike , and to their successors : Whose sinnes yee remit they shall be remitted , and whose sinnes ye retaine they shall bee retayned : which is the true vse of the keyes . Now who are to be termed the Apostles successors , if wee will belieue the said auncient Fathers , that were in my opinion as honest , and learned men , as those that oppose themselues against them ? wee must confesse , that they were at the least Ministers of the worde and sacraments , and so we haue pleaded in this cause against the papists .

But now on the other side , the world is so come about : that whereas the papistes doe giue the keies but to Peter only , and so to the Pope : where the auntient fathers doe giue them to all the Apostles equally , and so to their successors , ministers ( as I said ) at the leaste : now these newe start-ups , will needes thrust their aldermen into that number , and they must be also the Apostles successors . If men will be seduced wilfully by such falseteachers : Confess . cap 5 sect. 43. they maie . What a ridiculous sayinge is this of Bezaes ? That : In persona Apostolorum , the keyes were giuen , Omnibus veris presbyteris , to all true Priests or Elders , including in that number his vnpriestlie Eldermen . Againe vpon these words of christ : nont . , Math. 16.19 . the keyes &c. Hac metaphorica loquutione significatur oeconomi potestas ( Esa 22 ▪ 22. ) qua funguntur omnes ministri in ecclesia dei vt apparet infra . 18 ▪ 18. By this metaphoricall speech is signified that power of Christ mentioned in Esay , the key of the house of Dauid I will lay vppon his shoulders : loe hee shall open and no man shall shut , and hee shall shut and no man shall open : which power all the Ministers in the Church of God doe enioye , as it appeareth in Mathew : Whatsoeuer ye binde in earth shall bee bound in heauen , Annot. math. 18.17 , 18. and whatsoeuer ye loose on earth shall bee loosed in heauen . De excom. pa. 61. And vppon that place of Mathew the 18 ▪ Chapter , and in manie other places ; by the Church , and those binders and loosers there spoken of , hee vnderstandeth his Eldership , & so consequently aswell his Aldermen , as the Ministers of the worde . Hee that with an open face ( to vse Cartwrightes terme ) doth affirme that either in Mathew the 16. 15. or in the place of Esay mentioned , these vnpreaching Elders were ment or prefigured : needeth not ( I warrant him ) at any time a vizard .

Indeed maister Cartwright is not of Bezaes mind herein . For , ( saith he ) in Math. 16. and in Ioh. 20. Christ vnder standeth that euery one of the ministers , Lib. 3. pag. 83. bindeth & looseth by preaching : but the wordes Math. 18.18 . cannot bee drawen to the particular person of the minister . Surelye you haue sponne a faire thredde . For if your Aldermen , be not aswell vnderstoode in the wordes of Christ : Vnto thee I will giue the keyes of the kingdome of heauen : as in these : Whatsoeuer yee binde on earth shall bee bound in heauen , and whatsoeuer ye loose on earth shall be loosed in heauen : It will fall out that they will haue no keies either to open or shut withall : except peraduenture you will make your lockes with a springe , and so indeed they maie shutte the dore : but for openinge of it they maie blowe their nailes .

Heere you see Beza and Cartwright opposite : and now you shall haue a fellow to impugne them both , in a Theologicall position printed at Geneua , sette out by Ant. Fayus and maintained there by one Danyell Niellius , Thes. theolo : pag. 243. out of Math. 16.19 . thus ( saith hee ) wee may reason . To them onely the power of binding and loosing is giuen , vnto whom the keyes of the kingdome of heauen are giuen ( for to haue binding and loosing is that same , that it is , to haue ▪ the keyes of the kingdome of heauen ) : but vnto Peter the keyes were giuen , and vnto them in whose name Peter aunswereth , Christ demaunding whom the Iewes sayd hee was . And because they were giuen ratione officij , in regarde of his office : it followeth , that they were giuen to al , qui in veritatis doctrina predicanda sunt ipsis successuri : Who in preaching the doctrine of truth shall succeed them . By these wordes then , their disguised Aldermen must either haue assigned vnto them , the same office that the Apostles had , & be made preachers , or else they may put vp their pipes , and goe shake their eares . Thes. Cene● . But yet more plainly we are aduertised , in the same place from Geneua , out of Iohn , 20.23 . We may also inferre after this sorte ; Christ after hee sent his Apostles as he was sent of the father , he breathed on them the holy Ghost , saying whose sinnes ye remit , they shal be remitted : whose sinnes ye retaine , they shall be retayned . To all them therefore , and onely to them who are sent , that authoritie is giuen : But the Apostles onely are not sent . For it is Christ , who ascending into heauen , gaue to his Church Pastors , and Doctors : and altogether to that end , and for handling that worke . Ephes. 4.11.13 . Now , ioyne both these inferences , with that which Beza & Cartwright haue before set downe : and let him ( for mee ) beare the bell , for a reconciler of contrarieties , that is able in anie probable sorte to make anie one of them , friendes with another , or for euer hereafter to agree together .

And yet I know , that they of Geneua can do much . You must bring them very strange discords , but they will make some harmonie of them . Whereas the confessions of Bohemia , of Augusta , and the Apologie of the Church of England , doe a cribe these censures ( wee speake of ) to the Priestes or Ministers of the word onely : the Geneuians , to make the world beleeue , that ( in effect ) all the reformed Churches , doe agree with that of theirs , and with those other , that weare her cullors ; will needes take vpon them in their annotations , ( ioyned to the ende of their harmony ) , to expound the meaning of the said confessions , & how they must be rightly vnderstoode . Harmonia . Sect. 2. As for example , it is committed to the ministers of the word● ( saith the confession of Augusta ) : excludere impios , &c. a●communione ecclesiae : to exclude the wicked , &c. from the communion of the church . Nimirum : that is to say : ( affirme the Geneuians ) ex presbiterij legitimè congregati fententia , &c. according to the sentence of the Eldership lawfully assembled , whereas it neuer as yet set vp any such Eldership .

Againe , the said confession . Hic necessario , &c. heere the Church must yeeld them due obedience , Ibidem . meaning to the sayde ministers , so excluding the wicked : Nempe ( come in the Geneuians ) verbi ministris , & senioribus , ( that is to say ) to the Ministers of the worde , and to the Elders : who were neuer allowed of by that confession to this purpose pretended . The Apologie of the Church of England , hauing shewed that the administration of the keyes , doth onely belong to ministers of the worde , and that Sacerdos , that is , the Bishop , ( as I thinke hee meaneth ) for the execution of these censures , is the iudge : Sacerdos , that is ( say the Geneuians ) vnus designatus ex pastorum collegio : one chosen out of the Colledge of Pastors : Ibidem . Deinde etiam intelligiturpraeire ( quum de censuris ecclesiasticis agitur ) leg●tinam presbyterij cognitionem : And furthermore also , let it be vnderstoode , when speache is of the ecclesiasticall censure , that there goeth before a lawfull determination of the Eldership . Whether the Apologie , haue that meaning , the meanest of any sense at all , may iudge . And thus they deale also , with the Bohemian confession . So that ( as I sayd ) to serue their purposes , they can make ex quo libet , quid libet , of any thing , what they list . And by these examples , ye may also safely learne , what credite is to be giuen in this cause , both to them , and all the rest of that humour : when they would seeme to alledge eyther scriptures , Councels , or Fathers , for their most vnwarrantable , and counterfeit Aldermen .

But if it were graunted vnto them , for a moneth or two , that their Eldermen should be ioyned , with the ministers of the worde : and haue an equall authoritie with them , of binding and loosing : would they content themselues therewithall ▪ It is certaine that the Barrowists woulde not : and not they onely , but euen some others of a little better credite , then any of our English botchers : who will needs haue the people to haue in effect , as great an interest , in the execution of the Church censures , as all the rest , both ministers and Eldermen . Thus Vrsinus writeth hereof . Fiat excommunicatio , &c: Let excommunication be done , by the consent and authoritie of the whole Eldership , Expla . para. 3. pag. 350. & ecclesiae , and of the Church : not of the Church alone , nor of the Ministers or presbytery alone . For this power is not giuen by Christ to a few , or to Ministers onely ( although the administration and execution of it , is committed oftentimes to fewe , or to one Minister ) sed toti ecclesiae , but to the whole Church . If he will not heare them and others tell the Church . Potentes dominantur , vos autem non sic . Princes beare rule like Lordes : but you may not do so . The consent therfore of the Church is to be required . 1. Because it is Christes commaundement . 2. For the authoritie of the action . 3. That no man bee iniuried . 4. Least the Ministery should be changed into an Oligarchy , or Popish tyranny . Thus farre Vrsinus .

In whose iudgment you see , the Eldership is to be charged alreadie , though it be but newly set vp , with the same faults that are imputed to our church-gouernment , by the brotherhoode amongest vs : that is , with the alteration of Christes institution , with Lordlinesse , and with a Popishe tyranny , &c. So as , by this deuise , the people are to bee vnderstoode in the person of the Apostles , as well as their Elders : and the one hath no more authoritie to binde and loose , then the other . But nothing will content them long . Giue them the head , & euery yeare will bring forth a new platforme . It will not be inough for maister Beza to say : Neque enim eis assentior , Conf. cap. 5. sect 43. qui non nisi totius ecclesiae , &c. I doe not agree with them , who will not haue any man excommunicated , but by the consent of the whole Church , and of euery man particularly . For Christ hath giuen this authoritie , sani iudicij hominibus , to men of sound iudgement : that is to the colledge of Elders , according to the manner of the Iewes . Vrsinus , and those that are of his opinion , will aunswere : that the rest of the Church , are not of their wits : that it is but his pride , and his Elders presumption , to take so much vppon them : that they would be Lords ouer their brethren : and ( for the place of Mathew : ) that they know Christes meaning , aswell as he , and all that take his part .

T.C. lib. 1. pag. 183. Of the third ioynt office , that Cartwright saith doth●belong vnto his pretended Elders , to bee executed ioyntly with the ministers , ( as it was touched in the beginning of the 16. chapter . ) I shall haue a more fit place to speake , in the 22.23.24 . and 25. chapters following .

CHAP. XVIII . Of the first institution of the old Deacons : and of the disagreement , about the new disciplinarie Deacons .

IN the apostles times , when after Christes ascention , they began to preach in Ierusalem : such was the charitie of those , that professed the Gospell : that many of them , solde all , or the most part , of that which they had , and brought the price of it to the Apostles feete . The especiall reason that moued them , ( as I take it ) so to do : was this . The greatest part , that ( at the first ) did followe the Apostles , 1. Cor. 1. were of the poorer sorte . Who vppon theyr newe embracing of that so comfortable a doctrine , did giue ouer themselues , to the carefull meditation , and throughly learning of it : leauing their trades , ( though not altogether , yet surely as I suppose for the most part , ) vntill ( at the least ) that they grew to bee more fully instructed therein . To the which purpose , they kept asmuch together , with the Apostles , as possibly they could , and had their holy assemblies , their exhortations , praiers , and the administration of Baptisme , secretly in priuat houses , for fear of the Magistrats . Now ( as I said ) the most of these being poore men , and the Apostles themselues hauing nothing to liue vpon : When any of the richer sorte did ioyne themselues , to that meeting or congregation : they sold such thinges as they had , or thought meete , and brought the price of it vnto the Apostles : not onely for theyr owne maintenaunce , but committed the distribution of it , vnto them , for the reliefe also of the rest that wanted , and were not able to prouide for themselues , those thinges that were necessary .

This charge , as well for the saide religious exercises in their priuate assembly , as for this distribution equally to be made , as the occasions required : the Apostles took vppon them more particularly for a short time , then they did afterward : vz. vntill the number of Christians in Ierusalem increased from 120. vnto fiue thousand at the least , and did grow daily more and more : so as they were ( as I thinke ) constrained to haue diuerse Congregations . And then because they found it to be some hinderaunce , vnto the execution of their generall Commission , for ( the further dispersing of the Gospell : ) they caused seuen men to be chosen , Acts 6. such as were knowen to be of honest report , and full of the holy Ghost , and wisedome : Vnto whom that businesse was more specially committed . Who thenceforth might not onely according to their honesty and discretion , take into their hands , such money , as shoulde be brought , from time to time , to the godly disposed , for the purpose mentioned : but also in the Apostles absence , agreeably with the fulnes of the holy Ghost , ( whereby they held , the mysterye of faith in a pure conscience ) were to teach , 1. Timo. 3. to comforte , to moue , to confirme in the faith the brethren , in theyr particular congregations or meetings : and likewise to offer their common praiers in al their names vnto the Lord , and to baptise the children of the faithfull .

For the Apostles in appointing of these newe officers , had as well regard to the Soules of the people , as to their bodies . And because at that time , ( which was the infancy and first spring of the Church ) there were not such meete men , as might be made Priests , or ( as they tearme them now a daies ) preaching Elders : it pleased the Apostles , to haue them trained vp in that exercise , and to make the office of Deacons , a degree and a step to the fulnes of Priesthood . 1. Tim ▪ 3. Which is expressed by Saint Paul , when he saith of Deacons : qui bene ministrant , gradum bonum sibi acquirent : they that minister well , shal purchase to themselues a good degree . And this order or office of Deacons , being thus ( as you haue heard ) first instituted at Hierusalent : was afterward vppon the same occasions , and for the same ends ordained in other Churches : where , alwaies they executed , all the parts mentioned of their offices : so long as the Church●s continued , wherein they were placed . Or if it happened , ( as it did after in Ierusalem ) that their Churches were dispersed , so as contributions & collections ceased : yet they continued , their preaching , their exhorting , and confirming , of the we●ke brethren : their baptising of children , & the rest of the duties mentioned , as they might be suffered and accepted of , wheresoeuer they came . Examples of such Deacons and offices , as here I haue spoken of , we haue in the scriptures deliuered to vs by S. Luke , Act. 8 6.7 . wher he setteth down the actions of Steuen and Phillip , both of them Deacons , how they preached : how Phillip baptized , and what is sayd of any one of them ; must be vnderstood of the rest . Vnto these examples , and for the further proofe of these premises : I might adde the generall consent of all the ancient Fathers , and the ordinary practise of all Churches , either in theyr times , or since : especially , for the continuall practise , of the Priestly part of the Deacons office .

But as in times of dispersion , they could not execute the other part , consisting in collections & distributions : so afterwards , God blessed his Church in such sort , that indeed it needed not . For when great men , Lords , Princes , Kings and Emperours , had embraced the doctrine of Christ , so as men had the Gospell brought ( as it were ) home to their doores , and might frequent ( with commendation ) the publicke assemblies , and practise of religion , and withall , follow their owne trades , and particular callings more diligently : when also the saide great men , Lordes , Princes , and Emperours , ( besides many other well disposed Christians ) had prouided for the ministers , and for the poor sufficient maintenance , for the one , partly by the tithes , which are due vnto them , and partly by other gifts , according to their places : and for the other , ( that is , the poor ) by setting them on worke , ( such as were able ) & by prouiding of hospitals , and such like meanes ( for those that were impotent ) that part of the Deacons office , became , to be in time superfluous . And since , they haue applied themselues to the more materiall part of their office , whereby they might obtaine the other good degree of Priesthood .

With these points , I thought good to acquaint you : before I came to the Disciplinary conceits , about Deacons . For euen now , as though there were no prouision made , either for the ministery , or for the poore : they are most instant , for ( I know not ) what kind of Deacons . But as therin they haue cut off themselues from the truth : so are they at great disagreement one with another . Our Englishe reformers are all of them peremptory , that we must haue suche Deacons , as ( they imagin ) were in the Apostles times . But the Geneuian ministers , do think their platform of discipline to be the paragon of the world , although they haue no such Deacons in it . There is in Geneua an Hospitall , whereof there are foure Proctors and ouerseers , and these foure are with them in steed of Deacons . For otherwise they haue not so much as the name of Deacons there . By which rule ( if we shall square the pretended discipline ) we haue such officers already , as may serue our turnes for Deacons , vz. Proctors of Spitle-houses , maisters and ouerseers of hospitals , as sufficient , honest , and fit men , to execute their places : as ther is any ( I assure my self ) in Geneua . But peraduenture the matter which they shoot at , is this . They would haue an Hospitall in euery parish . And yet there is no such thing at Geneua . In al their whole Territory , they haue but one hospitall .

Wel , let Geneua therin do what it list : our men will needs haue another kind of Deacons : & what kind is that ? Surely no such kind as was in the Apostles times . Admonit . 1. T. C. lib. 1. T. C. lib. 2. Beza cont. Sarauia . ca. 7. But they know not indeed what they woulde haue . The Deacons which our men doe require , must not inter-meddle ( for a 1000. li. ) with any part of the office that belongeth to a minister . Their deaconship in no case may be reckned to be a step to the ministery . How beit som other men , as wise & as learned as they are , do hold a contrary opinion . First , all the ancient fathers are generally against them , in both the points mentioned , & so is the practise of the church of God , euer since the Apostles times . All the learned men in Germanie ( for ought I find ) that maintaine the Augustane confession , are against them . Yea what if some of their chiefe Captaines be against them ? Discipl . of France . Of Deacons . The Deacons in Fraunce , were once within these fewe yeares , allowed to catechise publickly in theyr reformed Congregations . And as yet , one parte of their office is to go through families , and to catechise them at home priuately . To bee a Catechist , with our men , is the especiall dutie of their Doctor : whom they make a Minister of the worde . So as then , there is no more difference in that respect , betwixt their Doctorall minister , and the French Deacons : sauing that the one doth catechise publicklie , and the other priuatelie .

If all this bee nothing : then let vs heare Beza ; the Consistoriall oracle : who turneth himselfe into euerie mans colours . Truth is mightie : and driueth men to their shiftes , when hauing rashly ouershot themselues , they will still ( to maintaine their credits ) impugne it . Beza con . Sat. cap. 7. Heare him , ( I praie you ) how hee plaieth his prize . It is ( saith hee ) absurde , to thinke that Deacons had the office of preaching committed vnto them . But in his confessions thus : Conf. cap. 5. Apho. 25. The office of pastors and Doctors , is to preach and saye prayers : vnder which duties I doe comprehend , the administration of the sacraments , and the blessing of mariages ( according to the perpetuall vse of the Church ) although oftentimes Deacons did supplye these thinges , insteed of the Pastors . Againe . Beza con . Sar. cap. 7. The fathers and late writers , who supposed that the office of preaching did belong to Deacons , decepti sunt , were deceiued . But in his annotations vppon the 1. of Tim. 3.9 . ( That the Deacons must holde the misterie of faith ) thus : Diaconorum enim erant nonnullae etiam in docendo partes , quoties necesse fuisset , vt ex Stephano et Philippo apparet : the Deacons had also some thing to do in teaching , when it was needfull : as by the example of Steuen and Philip it is manifest .

Againe : in his booke against D. Sarauia ; finding himselfe , ( as I suppose ) to be preiudiced by his said annotation , or hauing beene reproued for it by Cartwright &c. or fearing some inconuenience , that might ensue thereof ; hee would gladlye get him some startinge hole . Cartwright , to auiode the example of Steuen the Deacon , saith in effect ; that he was no preacher , but an Apologizer . But Beza , hath not learned that euasion , as yet . He hath another : Cont. Sar. c. 7 , which is indeed , as good as none at all . Stephen the Deacon ( saith hee ) although hee was most worthy to be apreacher : yet in that he was only a Deacon in the Church of Ierusalem , he is not sayde to haue taught in the Church : but in the Synagogues of the Iewes . As it is nowe constantly helde ; our Church ▪ assemblies , are the same in effect , that the Iewes Synagogues were . So as then , bee-like Deacons may not preach in Cathedrall churches , ( which I resemble to the temple of Hierusalem ) but they maie preach in Countrie parishes . One of the places which Beza alledgeth to shewe the manner of Stephens teaching in the Synagogue , is the Example of Christ ; where hee tooke a place of Esayas , Luke 4. and expounded the same in the Synagogue at Nazareth . If a man may say that Christ , did then preach : the same may also bee affirmed of Stephen , when ( as Beza saith ) hee taught in the Synagogues of the Iewes . Whilest you heare Beza driuen thus to his shifts : do you not imagine , that if his case in this point were good , hee could defend it better ?

But now , as concerning Cartwrightes confident assertion , that the Deaconship is not to be made a step to the ministerie . Besides the saide ancient fathers , & continuall practise of the church for 1500. yeares : the chiefe learned men of Heluetia , Bullinger : Gualter . Hemingiu● . & Denmark are flatly against him , where they entreate of this place of the Apostle : Hee that ministreth well , shall purchase to himselfe , a good degree . Alexander Alexius a Scottishman ; though in some sort he be a Consistorian , yet he is also against him . For writing vpon the same place : They shall get to themselues a good degree : that is , ( saith he ) digni iudicabuntur officio Episcopi : they shall bee iudged worthy the office of a Bishop . But Bezaes pretty apish toy , I could not chose but laugh at ; in this place . He seeth the streame of all antiquitie to runne for this step to the ministerie : insomuch ( as I am perswaded ) that neither he nor all the packe of his adherents , are able to shew , that ther was euer any one minister since the Apostles times , ( til now of late ) but first he was a deacon : & therefore to come as neere the truth as he can , & misse it , he saith , that in Geneua , when they choose any to the ministerie , they euer prefer their Deacons being meet men , before any other , of whom they haue not so good experience . So as there , to be one of the 4. proctors of their spittlehouse , is one good meanes to get into their ministery . But I will leaue these spittlehouse-deacons , to climbe as they can into their Consist . Bishopricks ; & come to another manner of deacons , that wold be hardly induced to be thrust either into a spittlehouse , or accept of the ministerie .

It appeareth in the 10 Chapter , how prouidently it is ordered at Geneua , that none but councellers of the state , can be any Aldermen of their grande presbyterye : & likewise how Beza a duiseth all other Churches , that will receaue their holy platforme , to endeuour asmuch as they can : that Noblemen & princes may take that office vpon them . Which order & aduise is thought to be of such importance ( as it seemeth ) for the glorie of their Eldership , that our English discourser , hath thought it meete to extende the same , in some sorte to the choise of their Deacons . Euery ignorant contemptible person ( saith hee ) is not to bee allowed to this office ( of Deacons ) : Dis. pag 110. but as godly , wise , and worshipfull , as may conueniently bee found in the Congregation , maye not thinke themselues too good to minister vnto Christ in his members , and in the name of the Church . Awaie then with these base Artizans , that haue dreamed peraduenture , that if the Discipline were vp , they should bee ( I know not what ) : awaie with them I saie ; these Tailors , Shoemakers , Mercers , Drapers , and such like ignorant and contemptible persons : and giue place to your betters , the wise and worshipfull Gentlemen of the parish . Indeed where great Lordes and Princes are Elders : forasmuch as Deacons maie chaunce sometimes to be ioyned in Commission with them : It is verie meete they should bee men of worship . But yet mee thinketh all the partes of this Senate ; are not fullie sutable . For where the Deacons are men of worship : where the Elders are Noblemen and Princes : what must the Pastors and doctors bee ? Surelie if proportion bee kept : they must bee some bodie : the Doctor a king , and the Pastor an Emperor .

What needed the learned Discourser then to suspect ▪ that peraduenture some men would bee loth to take the office of Deacons vppon them : when they should bee matched in this sorte , with such worthie and honorable Collegues . A great preferment no doubt for any aspiring minde ; and few gentlemen ( ye maie be sure ) will refuse it . But yet his suspition , doth rise of some thing . For what if these gentlemen Deacons , when their Pastors , Doctors , and their Noblemen-elders , were consultinge together ; should bee thrust out of the doores , notwithstanding their worships ? I tell you truelie that pointe is not yet resolued . Bertrand de Loques a French Disciplinarian , affirmeth : Bert. of the Church . c. 14. that although the Consistorie is indeed composed of the Pastors and Elders : Yet the Deacons are receaued into it so farre foorth , and in as much as they shall iudge it to be expedient and profitable : to aduise , giue counsell , & consider of the censures , and of that which is requisite & necessary for the guiding and gouernment of the Church . Well : this is some thing for the Deacons : but the auncient Councell of Hage , which was held ( as it hath beene saide ) in the yeare 1586. Concil. Hage Canon 35. hath gone much further . For there it is decreed : That in those places , where there are but few Elders , Consistorio Diaconi adiungentur , the Deacons shall be adioyned vnto the Consistorie . Before they were to expect , vntill they might be receaued into the Consistorie : but now they are of it . Before they were but only to giue aduise ; but now being of it , they must haue their voices in it .

But what shoulde I insist vppon such paltrie proofes ? You shall heare a Canon of the Ecclesiasticall discipline in Fraunce , resolued vppon ( I know not ) by howe manie Synodes , at Paris , Poictiers , Orleance , Lyons , &c. There it is set downe for a Law in this sorte : The Elders and Deacons doe make the ecclesiasticall Senate or Consistorye : Dis. of France . of the Consist . wherein the ministers of the worde sit as chiefe . And with this French decree , the authors of the seconde admonition here in England do fullie accord . Where they assure the high Court of Parliament 1572 ▪ Admonitio 2. that the whole regiment of the Church , is committed ioyntly to the ministers , Elders , and Deacons . Thus farre then the matter runneth well : for our worshipfull Deacons . Howbeit : now heare , what is said to the contrarie .

You haue heard how the said Councels , and admonitioners haue ioyned the ministers , Elders , and Deacons together : but now in commeth another sorte , and they will needes disiointe them . It would hardlie bee indured by the Ministers of Geneua , to haue one of the proctors of their hospitall , to sitte ( by vertue of that office ) cheeke by iowle with Beza . And therefore the generall resolution of all that are there ; is quight against the Deacons , in that behalfe . Beza in his treatise against Erastus , Beza de presb . Beza Epist. 85. and else where , doth allow of none to be of the Presbyterie ; but Ministers and Elders . Cartwright and all the rest of our reforming sconces ( except the said Admonitioners ) do wholie therein agree likewise , with Beza : So as I shall not trouble you with anie further allegation to this purpose , sauing one : and that you shall haue : because it containeth in it , not the iudgement onlie of any particular man ; but is the full resolution of Cartwright , and all his crue here in England ; contained in a certaine booke of Discipline , whereunto the chiefest of them haue subscribed : The presbyterye ( saith that booke ) is an assembly or senate of elders . By the name of elders are ment , ministers of the word , and those that are properly called Elders . They meane such as in their place I haue spoken of . Here then you haue that Deacons are of the presbyterie : and that they are not of the presbyterie . Chuse , which side you will belieue : I thinke they are bewitched . If I might aduise you : beleiue them both alike .

But some will peraduenture saie , that it maketh no great matter , whether side hath the truth : that the point betwixte them is of no importance : and that I am too blame , to make so much of nothing . Whereunto I answere , that if there bee anie who shall so conceaue : he is not well acquainted with the depth of this matter . For indeed it worketh a meruailous alteration in the Deacons office . Admitte them to haue their places and voices in the Consistories : and then their authoritie is growen to bee verie great . Then they haue equall right with their pastors and Doctors , to ordaine ministers by imposition of their handes . Then , the forgiuing and retaining of sinnes : doth appertaine vnto them . Then they are become the Apostles successors ; and doe carry the keyes of the kingdome of heauen aswell as any of the rest . Cart. &c. newe discipline . For in Consistorio standum maioris partis sententiae : In the Consistorye men must stande to the sentence of the greater part . One mans voice there , is as good as an others . And so in all other matters , that do belonge to the Consistorie , and which are to be executed there , iointly by them all together ; the Deacons beare swaie & haue a stroake with the best of them . Wheras on the otherside , if they be excluded out of the Consistorie : ( as Beza & our men would haue them : ) then they haue nothing at all to doe with any of these matters : but are restrained , & drawen into a more narrow compasse : & must content themselues , to be either proctors of hospitals , or else collectors & distributers of the peoples deuotion to the poore . And therein also they are subiect to great controlment . For as the lawes & certaine grounds of Geneua , affirme : ( & therfore also commonly so held elsewhere ) Diaconorum administratio , Thes. Geneu . pastorum inspectioni est obnoxia : the deacons administration is vnder the ouersight of the pastors .

It is true , Beza cont. Sar. Cap. 7. th●t Beza is pleased , to allow the deacons , a little more scope , than hitherto I haue mentioned . And that is : that in the celebration of the Lordes supper , they may by their office carrie the cup to the communicants . M. Cartwright goeth a little further , and telleth vs also , that they maie likewise distribute the bread . In all reformed Churches almost ( saith he ) the Deacons do assist the minister , in helping of him to distribute the cup , T.C. lib 1 : pag 61. & in some places also the bread . If none would be angrie with me : I would gladlie aske this question : vz. why the Deacons might not aswell helpe the minister to baptise , and to distribute the worde , as well as the Lordes supper ? But , as I saide before of the Noblemen Elders , so do I also of our worshipfull Deacons . What a sight were it to see a Iustice of peace , peraduenture in his veluet cloake , his chaine of golde , and such correspondent attire , as is agreeable to that calling ; deliuering to the people ( that I maie speake of so holie a sacrament , sacramentallie ) the most blessed bodie and blood of our Sauiour Christ ? And yet I allow the sight as reasonable , as to see the proctor of a Spittlehouse executing of that charge . Peraduenture it will here be said againe ; that if there be anie deformitie in the beholding of either of these sights , it is not in them ; but in the beholders . For they are ecclesiastical persons , as soone as they are made Deacons . And then why doth it not belong vnto them : to deale in ecclesiasticall causes ? It is wel obiected . That point indeed would not be omitted .

It is generallie agreed vpon amongst them ( I confes ) that their new found halfe-partie Deacons , are ecclesiasticall persons . For our Counter-poisoner saith : That whosoeuer are called ( as you must vnderstande their Deacons are ) to beare office in the Church , Count. pa. 130 with due examination and triall , and with the consent of those , to whom it appertayneth ; and are with fasting and prayers , or with prayers onely , and with imposition of handes , separated or put a part to that office : they are al Ecclesiasticall persons , and not lay men , as they terme them . Surely , if our Noble men , were once become Elders , and our chiefest Gentlemen Deacons : and so both the sorts of them , Ecclesiasticall persons : what a clergy should we haue in England ? Now there is no one calling , in the whole common wealth , that is growen , to be more contemptible with many , then the calling of Clergy men . But that would soone be recouered , when such men of estimation , should bee in the account of Ecclesiasticall persons . There was an old saying . Soluat Ecclesiae , let euery man pay to the Church . Which now is altered , and made aunswerable to the humor that now raigneth . Soluat Ecclesia , let the Church-men pay for it . And indeede , if we had suche Elders and Deacons , to be of the number of vs , that are Church-men and Ecclesiasticall persons : we might surely pay wel for it . At the least if their tenths & subsidies should be in all respects rateable to ours . And there were no reason , that the Pastors and Doctors , men so farre in degree aboue the Elders and Deacons , should finde lesse fauour , then their inferiours : or be more deepely charged , except their liuings were in true value , according to their degrees .

But this would be the mischiefe of it : that the Disciplinary platformres , haue so far ouershot themselues already , as certainely they haue marred all these their former speculations . For they haue made the Deacons office , but annual . And I am perswaded , that if our noble men & worshipfull Gentlemen , were but for one yeare to all respects become Ecclesiasticall persons , they would hardly be drawen to continue in that calling the next yeare after . It was neuer heard of in the Church of Christ , for the space of a thousand and fiue hundred yeares , that the deacons office should be annuall . Imposition of handes by the Presbytery , to an office for a yeare ▪ In what Apostle , in what Euangelist , in what History may we finde it ▪ A man shal be an Ecclesiasticall person to day , and to morrowe ( without any fault committed by him ) he shall become a lay man againe . Maister Beza seeing the absurdity hereof , doth indeuour to salue it , as well as he can . And wot yee howe ▪ Surely he saith in effect , that few men will bee willing to ●arry long in that office : and that therefore they are glad to haue them as they may , and to frame their lawes accordingly . But you shall heare his owne wordes to Doctor Sarauia , who doth mislyke that the Deacons office is annuall . Restitue igitur nobis faelicia illa Apostolicarum Ecclesiarum tempora , &c. Restore then vnto vs ( saith Beza ) those happy times of the Apostolicall Churches , Beza cont. Sarauia . ca. 7. and stirre vp suche men , in euery place if thou canst , who will not refuse this office with that condition .

See I pray you how weak in faith Maister Beza is . Tush ( saith Cartwright ) and some others , euen in the very like case : graunt vnto vs once , that we haue our Presbyteries established , and as concerning fit men to take vppon them the offices which are there required , God will stirre them vp thicke and threefolde : you shall be sure there will bee no want that way . You haue heard before , the place I meane , T. C. lib. 1. pag. 180. but such a good tale cannot be tolde too oft . When men are called ( saith he ) to a lawfull and profitable calling , and especially to a publick calling : God powreth his gifts on that person , ( which is called ) so plentifully : that he is as it were soddenly made a new man . Now if this be true : of all the giftes which are most necessary in any man of calling , I take it , that this one may goe in the number : that a man hauing put his hand to the plow , should not looke backe , but continue in the calling which he hath taken vppon him . So as then Bezacs aunswere is not worth a straw , to tell vs that the Deacons office , is not of such continuance now , as it was in the Apostles times : because men wil not now take that charge vppon them . For Cartwright either telleth him in effect : that Deacons must be chosen for their liues , as in the Apostles times , ( except there bee some extraordinary occasion to the contrary ) : and that then God will make them willing to continue in their office , according to their duties : or else if he shall restraine his sayd speaches , ( which are generall ) to his Elders , and so exclude their Deacons , from that sodain influence of Gods graces he talketh of : then certainely , I shall doubt , and so I think others will doe in like sort , that his Diuinity in that point , is much like his platforme of Discipline : that is , forged and counterfaite .

But one thing yet more I am to aduertise you off : concerning the worshipfull Deacons . And it seemeth strange . Our men as you know , and as it is elsewhere mentioned , haue beene most earnest vppon this point : that the body of Christ must in no wise be deformed , neither by increasing , nor diminishing , nor confounding of those officers and offices , which hee himselfe hath appointed in his Church , and to that end distinguished . Heare I pray you the Demonstrator : where he goeth about to proue , that a Deacon may not intermeddle , either with the worde or Sacraments . Demon. ca. 13 That which the Apostle ( saith hee ) maketh an ordinary and distinct office from other in the Church , must bee attended vppon by them , that are in the same office , and not to be mingled with any other . But the Deacons office is such a one consisting in distribution with simplicity , as Caluin and Beza &c. doe affirme . And therefore consequently the Deacons office must bee attended vppon , and must not be mingled with any other office . I will not meddle with the insufficiency of this argument : but take euery part of it , as the demonstrator meant it : and you shall see what will thereuppon fall out . If his minor be true : vz. that the Deacons office , consisting in distribution , is of that nature , that it must be attended vppon , and may not be mingled with any other office : What would yee say to him , who shoulde affirme , that notwithstanding the Elders and Deacons are distinct members of Christs body , and haue distinct offices appointed vnto them by Christ : yet those offices may bee mingled together , and one man may execute them both ▪ Surely maister Beza is the man . As neere as wee can ( saith hee ) we ( in Geneua ) do choose our Deacons ( being indued with good gifts ) to bee likewise Elders : because ( the censure and iudgement of manners , being no daily function ) has duas simul functiones obire facilè possunt : the Deacons may easily discharge both these functions together . Indeede it was meete that the Proctors of their Hospitall ( carrying the purse ) should be intertained with them , by one deuise or other . But in the meane while , T. C. lib. 1. pa. 190. our demonstrator runneth against them with all the force of his Engines , quoting Cartwright and Trauerse for his chiefe authors , with their 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 one instrument to one vse : &c 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 one man may not haue two functions or offices : and so amongest them they make ( by consequence ) the holy platforme of Geneua , to be a maymed , a dismembred , a confused , and a mangled platform of Church-discipline . And thus you see ( concerning this matter of their new deuised Deacons ) how they agree together , like Harpe and Harrow .

CHAP. XIX . Of certaine widdowes , which are made Church officers : and of the disagreement , which is about them .

TOuching this matter of Widdowes ; I will not trouble you much with it . Certaine poore godly and impotent widdowes , that had neither goodes nor friendes , nor were able in anie wise to help themselues , were maintained in the Apostles times , with such mony , as was brought in , by the richer sorte , and layd at the Apostles feete . The places of scripture , wherin these widdowes are mentioned , the Papistes bring for their Nunnes , and our disciplinarian men , for a fift sorte of their ecclesiasticall gouernours : both of them ( as I take it ) with no great sinceritie . The office ascribed to Nunnes , was single life , fasting , and prayer . The office ascribed to the ruling Widdowes , is to wash the feete of the saintes , and to attend vpon the poore , that are sicke . This matter of Nunnes , is notably handled , by Chemnitius : and so is the other of the pretended ruling Widdowes , Chemnit. ex . concil . Trident : par. 3. by Doctor Sutcliffe . How grossely the Papistes haue erred in theyr deuise : Doct. Sutcliffe of Ecclesi . Discip. cap. 6. I haue not nowe to deale with it . The disagreement which I finde in the other sort , touching their widdowes : is the point , which is propounded .

First I see , there is some doubt , whether the persons , who , ( as they say ) did execute the office mentioned , in the Apostles times : were men onely , or women onely : or some of them men , and some of them women . Cartwright , he is for the women onely : where diuiding Deacons into two kinds , he saith thus of the second : Some had charge ouer the poore straungers , T. C. lib. 1. pag. 190. and the sicke poore onely : and those S. Paul calleth in one place Diaconisses , and in another place widdowes . By his opinion then , they were women . But Trauerse in his discourse of discipline , where hee speaketh of deacons , and casteth them out into their orders : can find no other Church officers to haue executed that charge , in the Apostles times , ouer the sicke poore , but onely men deacons . A third sorte there is , Discip. eccles. 118.119 . which depend vppon maister Beza : & they will be sure not to misse their aime : & therfore they hold , that both men and women were then capable of that office . I agree to them ( saith Beza ) who thinke , that saint Paul in these words : ( he that sheweth mercie with chearefulnesse : ) vnderstandeth those which were appointed to cure the sicke : vt serè erant viduae : such as for the moste parte the widdowes were . Not alwaies widdowes , but for the most part ▪ So then belike it is a matter , after a sorte indifferent . Indeede in Geneneua , they haue no such widdowes at all : but a phisition and a Surgion , Order of Geneua of Deacons . maintained by the wages of the towne , to looke to the sicke in their hospitall . Nowe all these three sortes of men : haue their partakers . The moste hold for the widdowes , with Cartwright . Iunius giueth this reason why such women were rather appointed to that office then men : Iunius , eccle. lib. 2. cap. 4. because , aptiores sunt quam viri : they are more fit then men , to be about sicke persons , and to helpe them . The authour of the fruitfull sermon , he inclineth to Beza , where he saith ; that a shewer of mercie is he , or rather she , &c. And Trauerse , in like sorte is not without his adherent . Which disagreement amongest them , is not lightly to be regarded . For if widdowes were appointed by the Apostles to that office , then men might not execute it : if men were appointed , then it was vnlawfull for women to take it vpon them : no more then it was lawfull for them to be eyther pastors , doctors , Elders , or men deacons .

But bee this point , as it may bee : I will come to a second iarre . It hath gone a great while for good paiment from Beza and Cartwright , &c. that the whole Church being deuided , Beza annot: Rom. 12. & cont. Erast. T.C. lib. 1. pa. 190. into ecclesiasticall gouernors and Idiots : the men or women that did attend the poore sicke , or rather the women ( that I may vse their phrase , ) were no more to be reckoned amongst the lay Idiots in their parish , but must be thenceforth accompted in the number of Church gouernors . Learn . discourse . Fruitfull Sermon . A widdow in a Spittle house , an ecclesiastical person : nay an ecclesiasticall gouernour & commander . It seemeth that some haue beene driuen from Beza , Cartwright , and the rest of their associates : with the very cogitation of this so grosse an absurdity . And therfore to salue vp the matter , ( and yet to come as neer as they could vnto them ) they haue displaced these widdowes from their seats of gouernment , and haue made them plaine Idiotes againe , as they were before . Or rather , which is much worse : whereas before they were gouernours of the Churche ; Fenner defence Fruitfull sermon . they haue now thrust them into the lowest place , that may be , & say , they are to be esteemed but as Church seruaunts , such as were appointed by the gouernours of the Church , and consent of the people , to that seruitude . Here is then a great fall , as I think . From a wise woman to an Idiot , or from a publicke person to a priuate condition : and from a Church gouernour , to a poore Spittle-house seruaunt . Who would wishe to his enemie a greater change ▪ Peraduenture there will be some distinction deuised , that shall stop vp this gappe : but if it be not a good one , it may so chaunce ; that all their soueraigne rulers will be masshed with it .

Thirdly , if these the foresaid helpers of the poore sicke , should be men , as it is in Geneua , diuerse great questions will rise . As for example : where the holy Ghost hath described their qualities ? How well seene , they ought to bee in phisicke and surgerie ▪ who shoulde trie their skill before they were chosen ? Being chosen , who shoulde admitte them ? Whether the Eldershippe must bee able to trie them ? And whether it bee an Apostolicall rule , that Phisitions and Surgeons shoulde bee ordained for practicioners , by the imposition of the handes of the presbyterie ? And againe , on the other side also , if the said mercy shewers doe prooue to be widdowes , ( although as they say , there is some kind of description of them in the Apostles first Epistle to Timothy , 1. Tim. 5. wherein they agree : ) yet some thing will still fall forth , to be out of ioynt . Euery such widdow as they require , must be threescore yeares olde at the least , and such a one ( sayth maister Caluin ) as was , vnius viri vxor , the wife of one husband : Cal. in 1. Tim. 5. that is , was neuer married but once . And hee yealdeth this reason of that the Apostles order : because when a woman commeth to those yeares , and hath beene content all her lifetime before , to haue had but one husband : it is very likely , that afterward she will liue both continently and modestly . So then by maister Caluins iudgement , there might no widdowe haue attained to the said Church office , of gouerning the sicke poore : if she had beene twise married . But M. Cartwright relying vpon maister Bezaes annotations , will ( as it seemeth ) none of that : but saith , that it is sufficient , if such a widdowe hath had but one husband at once , and hath not been maried vnto another after an insufficient diuorce . T.C. lib. 2. p. 116. By whose opinion , euery such widow , might haue had in the course of her life foure or fiue husbands : without preiudicing her selfe thereby , from being as likely to liue continently , after she came to the age of threescore : as any other which should haue had but one husband at all . If the reason of the Apostles words depend any way vppon that point : peraduenture Maister Caluins exposition , will proue to be the better .

But there are here two pointes , which I meruayle at . It seemeth that by the opinions of them all three , a widdow being once chosen to be a church-gouernour , might not afterwardes marry ( at the least ) , and keepe her office . And why should then either phisition or surgion that is married , haue that charge committed vnto him ▪ Cannot an olde woman , that hath peraduenture as olde an husband , be as diligent and carefull about the sicke poore ; as a phisition and Surgion of middle yeares , that may haue both of them peraduenture , young wiues ▪ The second point I spake of , is this . Maister Beza in his exposition of the place mentioned : vnius viri vxor , the wife of one husband , notwithstanding he knew Maister Caluins fore sayd interpretation of the same wordes to be opposite to his , and that he taketh vppon him to confute his reason before specified , vz. of the probability , that such women , as had been married but once in threescore yeares , were more likely to liue chastly afterward , then if they had beene married fower or fiue times : yet for the honour and reuerence ( as I take it ) of M. Caluins name , hee doth not once make mention of him . You will say , this is a slender meruaile . M. Caluin was his frend , and therefore he named him not . Indeede , that is the manner of the world . Men are oft fauoured : as they are frended . But it is pitty , that the auncient Fathers haue no more friendship , with Beza . For , that is the point I meruaile at . Heare him how he commeth ouer them , or rather how he descrediteth himselfe . Hac in re sanè &c. In this thinge surely , I do not easely agree to the auncient fathers , especially the latine writers . And againe : If any man shall oppose against my exposition , the authority of certayne of the aunciente fathers : ad verbum dei prouoco , I doe appeale to the word of God , and I desire , that the reasons , which I haue broughte for it ; may be refelled . How crancke hee is with the auncient fathers ? but not a word of M. Caluin . And his reason ( as I take it ) was this : bicause M. Caluins authority seruinge him much better , for the credite of diuers Disciplinary positions , then all the auncient fathers doe : hee is more desirous for the continuance of his reputation , then of all theirs . A fourth matter there is also , concerning these widdowes , which is of the greatest importance : and is yet no better agreed vpon , then as you haue heard of the rest . Be it , that in the Apostles times there were such widdowes , as they affecte : yet the question is ; whether it be necessary , that now there should bee such church-officers , or new colleges of widdowes , set vp in euery parish , to looke to the poore that be sicke or not ? Some of their proctors , doe wauer much , in this point : some are resolute for them , & some are as resolute ( to my vnderstanding ) against them . First ( I pray you ) let M. Cartwright speak his pleasure . T.C. l. 1. p. 190 Saint Paule reckoneth vp all the ordinary and perpetuall offices of the Church ; of the Doctor , of the Pastor , of the Deacon , of the Elder , and leaueth not out so much as the Widdow . Againe . Now there is not so great vse of these widdowes with vs &c. Part of the necessity ( why they were first founded ) grew both by the multitude of strangers &c. and by the great heat of those East countries , wherevppon the washing and supplinge of feete , was required . Againe : For asmuch as there are poore , which are sicke in euery church : I doe not see a better order can bee deuised &c. if there can bee any widdowes gotten . And againe . I conclude , that ( if such may bee gotten ) we ought to kepe that order in the church . In good time . It is a very substantiall conclusion .

And is he come to this : If such can be gotten ? Hath God appointed such officers to be in euery parishe , as cannot be gotten ▪ He told vs before in the behalfe of his Elders , ( as you shall heare againe the thirde time ) that when men are called to a lawfull and profitable calling , T.C. l. 1. p. 180 and especially to a publicke calling , God doth powre his giftes on that person ( which is called ) so plentifully , that he is , as it were , soddainely made a new man . Whereuppon he inferreth , that doe but once make choice of such Elders , as he doth after : and God will by and by make them fitte persons to execute their offices . And may wee not then also affirme , by the Analogy of the same doctrine : that when God appointeth an ordinary and perpetuall office in his Church , he doth also prouide , either ordinarily or extraordinarily , that there shall be alwaies some to vndertake it ▪ What prerogatiue haue his Elders aboue his Widdowes , that God hauing appointed them both alike , to beare a continuall office in his Church : the one sort should be so miraculously prouided for , euen vppon the soddaine , and the other be suffered so farre to weare out , as that they cannot bee gotten ▪ May it not be as truely saide , sette vp the Eldership in euery parishe , and God will prouide Widdowes : as set it so vp in the most Clownish parish in England , and God wil presently by inspiration , make the poor husbandmen , Carters , Thatchers and Dawbers , newly chosen to be Elders , such meet and able men , to gouern the church : as the keies of the kingdom of Heauen , may be safely committed into their hands ?

Whether through these and such like other conceites , or vpon what grounds els I know not : but there is a second sorte of Disciplinary Widdowistes , that are very farre growen past Cartwrights , Ifs. Fenner . One that writeth the defence of the godlye Ministers , ( as hee intituleth them , ) hath in that Treatise , framed tenne argumentes of a wonderfull power , as many haue supposed . Wherein hee al'wayes comprehendeth the widdowes : & nameth them as necessary partes of the forme of that Church-gouernement , which Christ and his Apostles haue appointed to be the ordinary and perpetuall platforme for the guiding and gouerninge of the Church , vntill the ende of the world : and maketh them , ( by such force as his argumentes haue , ) as necessary , for the ordinary continuance of them , as eyther Pastor , Doctor , Elders , or men Deacons . The learned discourser likewise agreeth with this Defence-maker ; where hauing spoken of Widdowes , amongst the rest of their Church-officers : and of all their offices : he saith , that beeing instituted by the spirite of God , Learned disc. pag. 104. for the necessary vse of the Church , which vse still continueth , they ought also to be retayned amonngst vs . I may not here also omit the author of the Fruitfull sermon , Fruitfull Serm. pa. 39. who expoundeth so pretily , the similitude which S. Paul vseth of that mysticall body , whereof ( as I take it ) Christ is the head : that he excludeth the whole Church , from being any members of it , except they bee eyther Pastors , Doctors , Elders , Deacons , or Widdowes . A member ( saith he ) is such a parte of the bodye , Ibid. as hath receiued from the head , some particular and necessary guifte , to helpe and benefite the whole body , and euery member therof . And so he reckoneth vs his members , as I haue sayd . His meaning therein is this , ( as I thinke , ) that the rest of the body , is but as it were a rude lumpe , which is to bee framed and fashioned , by the sayd members : by euery one , according to the office of it . And after for the necessity , vz. that euery one of his sayde members , no moe , no fewer , should allwayes continue in the body : he vseth these woordes , If nature lacke any one member , be it neuer so base , Ibid pag. 40. if it bee but one toe , shee is sorry , shee is grieued , she lamenteth , shee iudgeth her selfe maimed , yea shee would redeeme it with the perill of loosinge the rest , such is her loue and desire , to appear in her beauty & perfection . As though he should haue said , that he and his fellowes are so far bewitched with the desire of their Eldershippes ; that rather then they will misse their Widdowes , euen the meanest members of it , they care not to hazard the being of the whole Church .

Vnto this fruictfull sermoner mentioned : Defence . pag. 135. I will adde one of Fenners inuincible arguments , because it enforceth the sayd similitude of the members of the body so syllogistically . Whatsoeuer officers are ordinary members of the Church : are sette into the same of God for ordinary &c perpetuall dueties , with ordinary and perpetuall giftes , wherein they are commanded to abide , and wherewith the Church is commaunded to bee content : Those are ordinary perpetuall and the best , for no man may remoue the members of Christs body , hauing ordinary giftes and actions for the perpetuall vse of the body . But these of Doctors , Pastors , Elders , Deacons , Church-seruants , are ordinarye members of the Church : are set into the same of God , for ordinary duties of teaching , exhorting , ruling , prouision for the poore , and attendance vnto them : all which no man in his wits wil deny to be perpetuall , and in these , expressely they which haue the giftes , are commaunded to abide , and to content themselues with them : Wherefore &c. These men you see , must either haue their Widdowes , or else all is marred . And haue them they will , if distinguishing , similitudes , diuiding , sillogismes , and logicke , will get them . And besides you may perceiue what most vehement , patheticall , and peremptory men they are , in this behalfe .

Howbeit you shall finde that other men , nay whole Churches ( for all this heat ) are of another opinion : and withall , such men and Churches , as neither the defender , discourser , nor sermoner , nor all the priuate disciplinarye conuenticles in England , will presume in any sort to compare themselues vnto them . Maister Beza doth not thinke the hauing of Widdowes , to be such an ordinary and perpetuall institution , as it hath beene pretended . For at Geneua , not such a Widdow , if you would giue a pounde for her . And yet that platforme is either perfect by this time : or else there hanges some curse ouer it . But this I am sure of : that he who durst take vppon him , to tell them in Geneua , that by their omission of these Widdowes , they haue cruelly wounded the body of Christ : they had like desperate ruffians , cut of one of his members : and that in these respectes , the forme of their Disciplinary regiment , is maimed and deformed : might peraduenture repente him of it . Indeede either I am very much deceiued , or els this dreame of widdowes beginneth to vanish . The very principall , nay the onely place , vz. Hee that sheweth mercy with cheerefullnesse , wherevpon they haue hitherto builte , to proue them to be such Church-officers , as they haue imagined them to be : is boldly , and with mayne strength wrested out of their handes : notwithstandinge that Maister Caluin , M. Beza , and M. Cartwright , had layde as fast hold vpon it , as they could . Or peraduenture I might rather say , that the two which bee aliue , seeing their tenure was nought , haue willingly giuen it ouer . The Champion I meane , that hath done this great deede , is Maister Trauers . De disci . Eccles. fol. 119. Who writeth of this pointe , after this sorte . That which followeth of him that sheweth mercy ; nullum certe munus ecclesiae indicare puto &c. I thinke it meaneth not any certaine office , but what duety , the whole Church ought to shew in relieuing the poore . Thus farre and further Maister Trauers , in his Latine booke , as if you will peruse the place , you shall perceiue .

But you must remember , that I doe referre you to his Latine booke : and not to the Englishe translation of it . Why ? some may say : is it not faithfully translated ? Shall we thinke that such zealous men , as had to deale therein , would serue vs as the Iesuites doe ? It is , wee know , a practise , with that false hypocriticall broode , to leaue out and thrust in , what they list into the writinges of the ancient Fathers : that thereby in time , nothing might appeare , which shoulde any way make against them . But wee will neuer suspect nor belieue , that any man who feareth God : and least of all , that any of that sorte , which are so earnest against all abuses and corruptions , shoulde play vs such a prancke . Surely yee doe well to iudge the best : and I my selfe was of your opinion . But nowe I am cleane altered . How were some of Vrsinus workes vsed at Cambridge ? And it is true that some other Bookes haue beene handled very strangely else-where . But concerning the present point , this is the trueth . The translator of Trauerses Booke , hath quite omitted the wordes which I haue alleadged : and all the rest that tendeth to that purpose , euen seuenteene lines together . So as if you see but the Englishe Booke , you shall not finde so much as one steppe , whereby you might suspect , that euer Maister Trauerse hadde carried so harde a hande ouer the pretended Widdowes . If the translator had receaued any Commission from the author to haue dealt in that sorte with his Booke : yet it shoulde haue beene signified eyther in some Preface or in some note , or by some means or other : but to leaue such a matter out , and to giue no generall warning of it , I tell you plainely it was greate dishonesty and lewdenesse . It were better for them to giue ouer their platformes in the plaine field : then to seeke to maintaine them with such apparaunt falshoods .

Well , let them take their course , and yet all theyr sleightes will not preuaile . But the Translator or Councellor , or peruser , one or moe , or how many soeuer : they were but all of them sottes : if they thought by such their corruption , to bolster vp the credite of theyr Widdowe Church-gouernours . For it is euident ( in my iudgement ) that eyther most of their owne men , doe beginne to come to Maister Trauerses opinion before mentioned , or else that generally it is helde by them , that the first ordaining of Widdowes , was but for a time , & neuer meant to be an ordinary , and perpetuall institution to continue for euer .

In Geneua ( as I saide ) there are no such Widdowes . Scotlande in their approued Booke after the Geneua fashion , doth not once thinke of them . The Synodicall constitutions , for the Presbyteriall platforme of all the French Churches , doe make no mention of them . The generall Councell of Hage , and so all the Low Countries , haue wholly forgotten them in their decrees and Canons . In the platforme , and newe Communion Booke , which was offered once or twise to the high Courte of Parliament in Englande , ( concerning these Widdowes ) there is nothing but silence . Whereas also there hath beene great paines taken of later yeares , amongest the Disciplinary brotherhoode , and many meetinges , and Synodes helde , about another more particular draught of Discipline , for this Realme , till at the last they haue subscribed vnto it , to bee a necessary platforme for all places and times : yet you shall not finde , that they haue spoken , so much as one word , of those Widdowes . Whereuppon I conclude , that their cause is desperate : and so I leaue , both them and their patrons , with all their contrarieties , vncertainties , and wranglings about them : and will come to the consideration of another materiall point : vz. what charge this Consistoriall deuise doth bring with it , to euerie parish .

CHAP. XXI . Of their desire , that those thinges which haue beene taken by Sacriledge from the Church , might be restored againe to the maintenance of their Elderships .

EXperience they say is not a foolishe mistres : but a mistres of fooles . In the beginning of the late reformation of Religion , in most places of Europe , diuers notable men did gretly ouershoote themselues . It is Aristotles rule , that one waie to come to the meane , is to proceed ab extremo in extremum , from one extremity to another . And it may holde in the example by him alledged , of making a crooked sticke to be straight : but it is not to be allowed of in anie sort , in the course of Diuinitie . There it is reckned a point of great weaknes , ( and so it is also with the prophane writers , ) to run from one extremitie to another . Manie examples I could bring of this weakenes : as how in manie places , men haue leapt from auricular confession , to the contempt of all priuate conference with their Pastor : from pharifaicall long praiers , vppon a paire of beades , three or foure times said ouer by tale , at one time , to little praier at all , two or three words , ( if so manie ) and farewel : ( agreable to mens consciences , euen as the Prouerb faith . A short horse is soone curried : ) from most gros and palpable Idolatrie and superstition , vnto verie great securitie and prophanation . Manie other such examples I might alledge , of running from one mischiefe to another : but there is none fitter then of the course which hath beene held , in this verie matter , whereof I intreate .

In times past , men thought they could not giue too much to the church , but now many suppose , they cannot take too much from the Church . In times past there was so much giuen to the church , that the k. of England was fain to make a lawe for the staie of so great liberality , Exod. 36. ( as Moses did when there was sufficient prouision made for the building of the temple ) : but now mens harts are grown to such a contrary extremitie , and are so far from incurring any danger in breaking that law for restraining them , as notwithstanding her most excellent M. hath continued & made her self , very many notable laws , that the church might keepe that which other men hath giuen her , and for the binding of men , to pay their duties to the Church : yet euerie man seeth how vnder pretence of concealements , and by many other meanes the Church-goods are thirsted after , and how the poore ministers are most pittifully defrauded in the paiment of such duties , as do belong vnto them . Insomuch ( by report ) as now in sondrie places , if they shal but seek or sue to haue their own : either they are greatlie misliked , or presentlie are indited for common Barators : or if they escape that , out flieth a prohibition from one place , a sequestration from another , and I know not what else , nor from whence .

And the cause of these & many other such extremities , I doe not impute so much vnto the laitie , as to sundrie men of the Clergie : whose proceedings haue ben greatly by extremities . It was an extremitie , when Wickliffe affirmed , that tithes ( appointed by God himselfe ) were merae eleemosynae , meere almes . But of all extremities , that passeth , where some now a daies would haue all taken from the Church , that so Ministers might liue , as they did in the Apostles times ; that is , onelie vppon voluntarie contributions . And this they thinke , to be a part of the Apostolicall reformation , which they seek for . Wherunto I ( for my part ) might peraduenture yeelde , if the laitie would be sworne before they tooke that from vs , which we haue alreadie : to deale with vs indeed for our prouision and maintenaunce , as preachers were dealt with all in the Apostles times .

I know , what will here be aunswered . When wee see that you that be Ministers , are become such men as the Apostles were , we will vse you as they were vsed . What ? will ye persecute vs ▪ No , we will bring that which wee haue , and laie it at your feete . I beshrew my heart if I belieue you . But if I did , the matter were not great . For there neuer were such men , nor euer shall be to the end of the world , as the Apostles were . So as where they limit their liberalitie with that caution : it is asmuch as if they should saie : we would be glad to finger that which you haue , and then get more as you could . Nay it smelleth surely of a greater prophanation . For your ministers do teach you now the same doctrine : that the Apostles taught . And would you desire more ? Doe you look for it at their hands , that they should worke miracles ? Is your pretended great zeale come to this , that now you haue neede of miracles ?

If anie man thinke I fight against mine own shadowe , and that there are none so wickedlie bent , as to wishe an vtter spoile of the Church : he is to be aduertised that M. Barrow , Barrow . p. 55. 58. 61 with all his Sectaries ( moe in number then is imagined , Petition to her Maie . p. 49 and latelie increased by one , a franticke petitioner ) they are the men . Indeed the other sort of Consistorial reformers , are growen to be wiser . For a while , it is true , that manie of them dreamed of such a matter . They talked , how much of the church liuings , might be emploide this waie , and how much that waie . Tithes were Popish toies : Humble motion p. 100 . &c yet laie men might haue them , and Ministers should be paide out of the Exchequor . The humble motioner maketh mention of some such waie , to put Ministers to their pensions : but he confuteth it and brocheth another deuise of his owne . Disc. Eccl. fol. 95.96 . Trauerse he doth not thinke that Tithes are due by the worde : but yet he would haue them to be continued to the church , howbeit not to be gathered in such sort as they are . The Magnifico could be content to haue the Tithes : but for sooth Princes must take order to haue them brought trulie into the Ministers Barns , that they maie not be troubled with so base a thing , as to looke to the manner of tithing . Nescio quid habet sordidi singulorum agros , ne fallatur , aestimare , &c. that is , as his Translator in Cambridge saith : It is a base and vile thing for them to view euery mans fielde , least they be deceaued , and to knowe the number and increase of euery mans flocke , or cattell : and of other thinges &c. Manie Ministers in some Countries not far from hence , who thinke themselues as iollie fellowes as Maister Trauerse , would be glad with all their harts to abase themselues to this nescio quid sordidi , if they might .

When reformation of Religion was first vrged , it was thought such an effectual motiue , as would procure attention , vz. to intitle Princes after a sort to the church-goods . The learned men perswaded themselues , that if by anie pollicie they could ouerthrow poperie , it would be afterwardes a verie easie matter to recouer them againe . If error and superstition had beene so beneficiall to the Church , they nothing doubted , but that truth and sinceritie would bring forth at the least as plentifull fruictes . Besides , they did not so yeelde ouer their right in those matters to Princes : but it was done with diuers cautions and prouisoes , by vertue whereof they supposed in time , to recouer all againe into their own handes . But it is not good to dallie with Princes . Indeede they plaide , warye beguile themselues : which since hath wonderfullie mooued them . And now they ( all of them in a manner ) doe runne vppon this ground , vz. that Kinges and Princes are bound by the word of God to restore to the Church such goods , as heretofore they haue taken from her : and generally that nothing once separated from a common vse , and bestowed vppon the Church , may be afterwards alienated to anie other vse .

Cardinall Sadolette charging the Ministers of Geneua : Sadol to the Gene. p. 162 that by the which course they had taken there : they did nouas sibi potentias & nouos honores quaerere , seek to themselues newe powers and new honors : ●al . to Sad. p. 172. M. Caluin aunswereth in this sort , that they did not affect nor gape after any other riches or dignities , then such as at that time was fallen to their lot : testes erunt omnes qui nos audierunt : as all they can witnes that haue heard vs . Howbeit the perceiued within a while after , that the ministers had too little , and that the ciuile magistrats had greatlie ouerreached them in that behalfe . Whereuppon he began in all his sermons for the most part , to insist much vppon the restitution of the Church-goods . Capito confesseth in generall termes ( but such as may wel be extended to this matter ) that the rash dealing , which had ben practised , for the abolishing of Poperie , had ben very inconuenient . Dominus videre dat &c. God dooth le● vs now see &c. quantum praecipiti indicio , vehementiaque inconsulta abijciendi ita pontificis nocuerimus : Epist. to Farel . in Cal. Epist. 6. what hurt we haue done by rash iudgement , and inconsiderate vehemency of banishinge the Pope after such a manner . One Zuickius finding the mischiefe also in Constance , of the Magistrates grapling verie greedilie for the Churche-goodes : Zuick . to Cal. in Cal. Epi. 33. writeth thus to Maister Caluin . Quanta bonorum Ecclesiasticorum s●l ratio habenda , &c. What regard there ought to be had of the goods of the Church , I need not to recite : vse your indeuour with all good men , that they woulde exhorte our Magistrates earnestly to the lawfull vse of those goods . Huc enim ventum videtur , &c. For nowe it seemeth to be come to this passe ( which I say not without griefe ) that a great part of our Magistrates doe belieue , that then onely indeede , they escape from vnder the kingdome of Antichrist , si cum bonis ecclesiae ludant pro libito , nec vlli disciplinae subsint , if they may play with the goodes of the Church at their pleasures , and be subiect to no kinde of Discipline . O egregium Christianismum : O worthy Christianitie .

Whether Maister Caluin did satisfie Zuickius desire , in mouing the magistrates of Constance , to the effect mentioned ; I know not . But what he writ to Farellus ( vpon the very same occasion ) : you shall heare . The church-liuings , were vsed in the very same manner at Neocome ; that they were at Constance . Farellus , being the minister , intreated M. Caluin to write to the magistrats at Neocome : for their desisting from that sacrilegious course . To whom Maister Caluin returned this answere , in effect : vz. that they themselues , the ministers at Geneua , were as hardlye handled in the same respect , with their owne magistrats : and that it were therefore a very absurd point for him to seeke to reforme the magistrates of other Cities abroad , before he should haue reformed his owne first at home . His wordes are : as it followeth . Timendum est &c. It is to be feared , Calu. epist. 66. least wee seeme ridiculous to your magistrats , in requiring that of them , which as yet wee haue not obtained of our owne . We shall teach , what the right vse is of church , goods , and who are the lawfull Stewardes of them , that by our authoritie wee maie vrge those of Neocome . Cur non potius exordium a nobis facimus ? But first why do not we begin with our selues ▪ Take heede therefore least in attempting to do you good , that we doe not rather hurt your cause . How much more forceable would that be , which is in the booke , that I procured to be printed when I was at Strasburgh . For there the Princes , as many as imbrace the gospel , do promise the restitution of all , which they haue in their possessions , if once there were any godly concord agreed vpon . Your magistrates are to be admonished by the example of those Princes , that at the least vntill that time , they would keepe them all wholy together vndisposed of , or distracted in their owne hands . You will aske me why I cease or hold my peace , if I see the same mischiefe in Geneua that vexeth you ? Ego verònō cesso &c. I do not ( truly ) cease openly in my sermons , as oft as oportunitie serueth therunto . Contestor Deum & homines , graue nobis imminere iudicium . I do with griefe & praier call God and men to witnes , that a heauie iudgement hangeth ouer our heades . I haue also affirmed diuerse times asmuch in our Senate : neither doe I thinke that as yet I haue discharged my dutie , seing I haue nothing preuailed . But I do follow Ambrose , who retayning the doctrine and the place of a pastor , so as in defence of them he was ready to haue spent his life ; agros tyrannidi Imperatoris Valentiniani sinebat : hee permitted the possessions of the Church to the tiranny of Valentinian the Emperor . For our magistrates do suspect , that the strife is , but of emulation , as though our griefe onely were , that they haue wrong those thinges out of our fingers which now they possesse : excepte peraduenture they giue it so out , not because they thinke so , but for that they would thereby discredit our words in that behalfe . But yet notwithstanding we must so auoyd suspition , that we doe not winke at sacriledge .

And againe , the same maister Caluin in another epistle to Viretus : doth signifie vnto him , how he dealt with the magistrates of Geneua , at one especiall time , when there was speach about certaine stipends . When I sawe howe hard they were in that matter , acriter aurem illis vellicaui &c. I made their eares to burn ( saith he ) as concerning the administration of Church-goods : how in time they were to thinke , what account they should make both to God , Cal. to Viret epist. 108. and men : Papam fuisse furem et sacrilegum , videndum ne simus successores , that the Pope was a thiefe and a church robber , and they were to looke to it , that they proued not his successors . I did vse a preface , that might cause attention : vz. That the woundes of a friend were better &c. and that they should not seeke any Balaam , qui illis in maledictione benediceret , who in their cursed estate should blesse them . Hitherto maister Caluin ; whose wordes I haue set down at large : that you might the better vnderstand , the estate of the most worthy Reformation of the church of Geneua : and how the discipline being there in her full prime and brightnes , it is not possible that anye grosse enormities should continue in that Citie . Indeed it is much , and I meruaile how it is endured , that maister Caluin should resemble the magistrates of Geneua , to such cruell , tyrannouse , and sacrilegious persons , Valentinian the Emperor , and the Pope of Rome . But most of all I wonder that maister Beza would publish such letters in print . Being but written to priuate men : the matter could not be great . Marry now they are thus offred to all posteritie : the testimonie of such tyrannous sacrilege will be euer had in memorie . For which kind of dealing : they are much beholden to Beza . It was indeed , handled of him politickly . Of likelyhood the sacrilege mentioned doth continue there still . But he being a prouident man , thought it better that maister Caluin , being dead should tell them of it ; then he himselfe being aliue , and therefore subiect vnto their displeasures . For otherwise maister Beza for his parte , is as earnest against sacrilege , as euer maister Caluin was : and it may be for ought I do know , or remember to the contrarie , that hee hath dealt himselfe as roundly with them . But sure I am of his iudgement : which doth appeare in his treatise of his three sortes of Bishops , Beza . where this question being propounded vnto him : vz. Whether these thinges which had beene once vowed to holy vses , might afterwardes bee otherwise employed : he maketh this answere : Concerning the goodes of the Church : first of all we suppose great heed ought to be taken , that none doth staine himselfe with handling the church goods . For if God hath taken reuenge of such sacrilege , euen amongst the very Idolaters , what trow we will his iudgement bee against them which haue spoyled his Church : and haue prophaned the thinges which were set a part for his true worship . Moreouer it is euident , that this turneth greatly to the reproch of the name of God , and of his holy gospell : as though for sooth papistrie hath beene abandoned not for the loue of the truth , but to robbe the Church of her goodes : as though new theeues haue entred into the roomes of the olde ▪ &c. Viretus in like manner , for his earnestnes in this pointe , Viret 3. dial . of white diucles . is neither short of Caluin not Beza . The lesse authoritie that the ministerye and ministers haue : the greater libertie haue sacrilegers , theeues , extortioners , and other wicked ones . Againe , I know many which liked the gospell well , when in the beginning their preachers cryed against the abuse , that they sayd was in the Romish church , and in priests and monkes . They liked well also that the goods of the Church should be taken from Priests and Monkes , to haue the gouernment of them themselues , vnder colour that the Priests and Monkes abused them , and that they should be put to better vse : but God knoweth how euill they are bestowed vppon manye , and in many places . The worst is , that those which haue not done herein as they ought , and which dayly forget themselues more & more , cannot now a dayes so much as suffer the preachers to admonish & reproue them , & to stir them vp to bestow it where they ought to bestow it , according to the order & discipline &c. ibidem . And in another place . These fellowes ( that will not restore the church-liuings ) may be likened to those Diuils , which cry : why art thou come to torment vs before our time ? And the same fellowes also say : Qui nostra tollit , inimicus est : hee that taketh awaye ours , is our enemie . They regard not whether they haue gotten the goods , that they possesse , well or euill : wherefore they esteeme all those to bee enemies , that in reason demaunde restitution of them , and declare that it belongeth not vnto them , but that they haue stollen it awaye from the Church . ibidem Likewise afterwardes : I doubt not , but if they were called to account , for the bestowing of such goods : and if it were taken out of their handes , as it was taken from Priestes and Monkes , ibidem and giuen to such as should better bestowe it : they would take pepper in the nose , & fall to playing the Diuels part . Lastlye , I put the case ( sayth he ) that a whorehunter or baude steale an honest mans wife , and the husbande commeth and demandeth this wise of this russiam that hath stollen her away : and reuileth this Russian or Baude , for the wronge that he hath done him , and goeth to lawe with him , whereby there ariseth great strife : I would aske of thee , who were in the fault ? Eyther the husband , who hath had this wronge : or the Rauisher who hath played him this wicked pranke ? And the answere is thus framed : The whorehunter or baude , hath as much reason to complaine and bee angrie , as hath a theife or robber : which is called to account of thefts and robberies , which hee hath committed , and which is called to iudgement for the same .

But I will come from Geneua into England : Admonitio 2. to the parlia . 15 7 2 : that you maie perceiue , what our chiefe disciplinarie Reformers , do thinke of this matter . It is no better then sacrilege and spoiling of God ( saie the Authours of the second Admonition 157 7 2 , to keepe backe any way the prouision ) which hath beene made for the ministery . And the curse of God threatened by Malachie , to those that spoyled the Leuites then : belongeth & will light vppon our spoylers now , and vppon them , in whose bandes it is to redresse it , if they do it not . The Author of the booke , de disciplina ecclesiastica , speaking of Bishops liuings &c. saith thus : of many in these daies , who vnder a pretence of zeale , do cry out for reformation . Haec orati● gratissima est nonnullis , qui suam causam agi putant , et iampridem haereditatem istam spe deuorarunt . Fol. 94. These wordes &c. are most acceptable to some , who thinke they tende to theyr profitte , and haue alreadye in hope deuoured this inheritaunce . For they thinking that wee seeke onlie , that Bishops might be spoyled , doe expect thereby the like praye , that they got by the ruines of Monasteries . For as for religion they care not , what become of it , modò ipsi praedari possint , so they may waxe welthyer by sacrilege & robbery : and would not sticke ( if it were possible ) to crucifie Christ againe , vt tunicam eius sortirentur , ibid. fol. 87 : et vestimenta diuiderent &c. But this our age hath many such Souldiers , many such Dionysians , who thinke that a golden gowne is not fit for God neyther in summer nor winter : and yet that it will serue them well at all times and seasons . Againe , They had rather all religion were banished , that al opinion of worshiping & fearing God were abolished , that all fayth in Christ , & hope and looking for euerlasting life , were forgotten amongst men , Ibidem fol: 95. then to maintaine it with anye pennye of theirs . Yea further , they will not only giue nothing to the maintenance of the ministery : but most vniustly scrape vnto themselues , that which was liberally giuen by others : & spoyle the Church , robbing her of her goods &c. But they must eyther restore it againe , that the church may be prouided-for of worthy teachers , or else make themselues guiltye of the losse and destruction of so many soules , ibidem fol. 97. as by theyr meanes are destitute of a preacher , and shall perish in their ignorance . And againe : Let good princes not only not spoyle the ministerie themselues , or suffer it to be robbed of others : but liberally according to the commaundement of our Sauiour Christ , see it maintayned and prouided for through their Kingdomes : nor suffer that which was once giuen to this end , to be prodigally spent & wasted , in aulicos luxus atque delicias ; nor bestowed vppon Noblemens seruaunts , nor other innumerable sortes of so vng●dly and intollerable abuses , by sacrilege & the church robbery &c. M. Cartwright also , in his last booke very well allowing of the former mans iudgement , and vtterly misliking of such greedy cormorants ( for so he termeth them ) as gape after the pray , ( at large before mentioned ) writeth in this sort . Our meaning is not , that these goodes should be turned from the possession of the Church , to the filling of the bottomlesse sackes of their greedy appetites , which yawne after this pray , and wold therby to their perpetuall shame purchase themselues a field of blood . There was a booke published , Supplicat . of the comminalty . in the parliament time 1585. intituled , A lamentable complaint of the Cominaltie . Wherein the authors haue at large handled this matter . Know ye not ( say they ) That the vniust shall not inherit the kingdome of God ▪ What greater iniustice then to defraude God of his glory , the ministers of theyr right &c. How can wee saie that wee loue Christ ? No not so much as Antichrist loueth the Diuell . For Antichrist is bountifull to maintaine his seruice ; if the like liberality were vsed amongst vs , without all doubt a great number would be stayed from passing the Seas to Roome or Rhemes to become Iesuits . We read Leuit. 27. That nothing seperate from common vse may be sould &c. because it was holy vnto the Lorde . The which Law is not ceremoniall but iudicial : ibidem . the equitie therof endureth to the Church for euer , & the violation of the same lawe , hath beene horriblye punished in former dayes ; as appeareth by the examples of Achan , Nabuchadnezar , Balthazar , Ananias , and Saphira &c. And the like iustice no man can escape either in this world , or in the world to come , that committeth the like offence . Vppon that place of Mal. where it is sayd : That the spoyling of the Priestes was the spoyling of god : Thus also they write . ibidem Hath not the whole nation of England spoyled the Lord in like manner , and rather more ? Surely this is written for our learning , that we might know that things consecrated to God for the seruice of his church belong vnto him for euer .

A number moe , of such speaches ; I could alledge out of their writings . But these may serue to let you know , that whatsoeuer in times past , any of their sort did seeme to yealde vnto for a time , touching the alienation of Church-liuings : yet this was alwaies their purpose , to get them againe into their owne handes in the end . It had beene a happie matter for the Church , if this lesson had been euer obserued : Thou shalt not do euill , that good may come of it . Things had not then growen to such extremities : as they are brought vnto in many places . When the Sea maketh a breach , it is hardly stopped : and a dore once opened to such impietie ; will be hardly shut againe . And yet ( you see ) they do what they can to shut it , now that they perceaue the verie great falsehood , which they find in their owne fellowship . Certaine hypocriticall Bretheren of the Laytie , haue clapped them ( as it seemeth ) vppon the shoulders , followed their sermons , set them at the vpper ende of their tables , and sought by all their strength to procure them credit & fauour with the people : not that they cared either for them , or for Religion , or for Christ himselfe : but hopinge that by the violent course , which they saw these men run into , the Bishops , & the rest of the Cleargie ; would be growen in short time to be so odious : as it would be a very small matter , to disposses them of all their liuings , wherof some portion might come to their shares . Which manner of pollicy now ( you may perceiue ) these brethren haue espied , & therfore they spare not ( as you haue hard ) to set forth such hipocrits in their plainest colors , very liuelie & ( in their opinion ) truly .

God of his infinit mercie multiplie her M. daies , that she maie raigne many and manie yeares still ouer vs . If it had not beene , for her most princelie and most religious care of the Church , the children of Edom , had long before this time greatlie indaungered it . But this I will say vnto them : that if euer they obtain their desires ( which I know they shal neuer do in her highnes time ) they shal not possesse a pennie worth of the church-goods , which ( I am perswaded ) will not prooue vnto them , to be like the gold of Tholossa , wherof none had part , that euer prospered afterward . I could shew some reasons of this my perswasion , but I am a man not verie grateful to that sort of reformers . I will therefore spare that paines , and the rather , because their own maisters hau● dealt plainlie inough with them alreadie . This onelie I will adde , committing it to their discretions , to be considered off at their leasures . There was neuer anie nation so barbarous , but it thought there was a God . Againe , there was neuer any nation that thought there was a God , but it likewise acknoledged , that the same God had his priests to teach the people his will . Againe there were neuer as yet ( to my knowledge ) anie men in the world , but belieuing there was a God , and acknowledging his Priestes , they haue alwaies either in truth , or at the least in shew , depended vpon their priests instructions , as touching the wil & seruice of God . Which points being true , I would gladlie know , of anie Sacrilegious Disciplinarian , what sort of Priests they are , whose aduise he followeth . Some he must needs follow , except he will professe himselfe to be in the number of those , that say in their harts there is no God . Doth he follow the Priests of the heathen ? why , they euer thought that it was vnlawfull for anie man to spoil his God . Doth he follow the Popish Priests ? There are no men ( surelie ) that crie out more earnestly against Sacriledge . Doth he follow the councell of any Priestes which haue embraced the Gospell ▪ No Priest that feareth God will teach him so . Some Priests in this latter age haue beene mistaken . But if anie did euer teach so , he may perceaue , by that which I haue said , that they haue repented them of it .

For nowe they tell all , who will be their schollers , that they may not indeuour to alienate the church-liuinges from the ministerie . Or if they will needes , vnder pretence of zeale and shewe of religion , seeke to deuoure Christes patrimony ; then they doe vtterfly disclaime & renounce them , from being of their Disciples any longer .

Then Zuickius assureth them : that they are but hypocriticall christians . Caluin compareth them , ( be they the Magistrates of Geneua , or of anie other countrie ) to cruel tyraunts , and saith , they are the Popes successors in theft and robberie . Beza is resolute , that God will be reuenged of such persons , & telleth them , they are new theeues , that haue entred in place of the old theeues . Viretus maketh them wors then friers & monks : & resembleth them to white diuels . Trauers saith in effect , that they are christs mortall enemies , and would crucifie him againe , for his coate , if they might laie their hands on him . Cartwright calleth them cormorants , and likeneth them to Iudas the Traitor : certifying them , that in spoiling of the Church , they purchase to themselues a field of blood . The whole comminaltie of England , complaineth and crieth against them : that they hate Christ , that they defraud God of his glorie , that they are ( all the sort of them ) no better then Achan , Nabuchadnezar , Baltasar , Ananias or Saphira : that the punishment which did light vpon these church robbers , shall light vppon them , either in this life , or in the world to come : and that they are to be reckoned amongst those vniust persons , that shall neuer enter into the kingdome of heauen .

So as this is the point , which ( as I said ) I doe commit vnto the inward cogitations of all prophane Church-robbers , vz. to thinke with themselues , what God they serue , and what Priests they are , that teach them suche lewd doctrine : or if none teach them so , whether in taking so execrable a course of their own heads , they condemne not themselues in their own consciences . There is here no refuge for anie such persons , that I knowe of , or anie replie to be made against the premises . Except they will saie that Barrowes God is their God , that Greenwood is their Priest , and that they are all of them , deuoted to Greenwood and Barrow . Greenwood is but a simple fellow , Barrow is the man . And will sacrilegious persons become Barrowists ▪ I easilie belieue it . Like will to like . When Barrow by roisting and gaming had wasted himselfe , and was ●unne so far into manie a mans debt , that he durst not shew his head abroad : he bent his wits another waie to mischiefe , and is now become a Iulianist , deuising by all the meanes he can possiblie imagine , his hypocrisie , railing , lying , and all manner of falshood , euen as Iulian the Apostata did : how all the preferments , which yet remaine for learning , Benefices , Tithes , Glebeland , Cathedrall Churches , Bishops liuings , Colledges , Vniuersities and all , might be vtterlie spoiled and made a pray for Bancrouts , Cormorants & such like Atheists . Well to conclude , come the spoile of the church hereafter , when for our sinnes it shall , manie mischiefes and great confusion will follow it . The Church-liuings , will serue but a few mens turnes . The particular parishes in England may whistle after their parts of that praie : and so may our new maisterships Eldership . There are examples in the world , where al the Church-liuings are consumed by a few : and the parishes stand burdened as they were before . Mary if they should be then so ouerburdened with so manie new paiments , as I spake of in the last chapter , they would neuer be able to endure it . And therfore it is verie high time , that our zealous Disciplinarians , should inueigh against Church-robbers , and that the common people should likewise remember the points of Sacriledge and sacrilegious persons , which they haue published to the world in their printed Supplication , against all the new Iulianistes and Atheists mentioned .

CHAP. XXIII . In the oppugning of Princes authoritye in causes Ecclesiasticall , they ioyne with the Papists .

THere is nothing will lightlye anger our pretended Brotherhood more , then if ti be tolde them , that they denie in effect ( with the common aduersaries , ) her Maisties lawefull stile and prerogatiue Royall , in causes ecclesiasticall . O● saye they , wee doe not : wee are slaundered : wee yealde vnto her Highnes as much authoritie , as anye King maie lawfully challenge : we abbridge her of nothing that the worde of God alloweth her , and many other such ambiguous protestations they vse to make , in this behalfe . But they plav the deceitfull sophisters : whom the Lord abhorreth . For these are some of their grounds . A man would thinke , that they had taken them out of Hosius . The a a T.C. lib. 2. pa. 48. Christian soueraigne , ought not to be called the head vnder Christ , of the particular and visible churches within his dominions . No b b T.C. lib. 2. pa. 157. 167. ciuile magistrat hath preheminence ( by ordinary authoritie ) to determine of church-causes . No c c T.C. lib. 2. pa. 165.154 . ciuile magistrat , in Councels or assemblies for church-matters , can either be cheefe moderator , ouer-ruler , iudge , or determiner . No d d Admon . 2. ciuile magistrat hath such authoritie , as that without his consent , it should not be lawfull for ecclesiastical persons , to make any church-order or ceremonie . No e e Dis. Ec. f. 88 ciuile magistrat ought to receiue , either tenths or first fruits of any ecclesiasticall persons . The f f T.C. lib. 3. pa. 154. iudgement of church-matters pertaineth to God : they g g Li. 3. p. 153. ought ordinarily to be handled by the church-officers : the h h T.C. lib 3. pa. 154. principallitie or direction of the iudgement of them , is by Gods ordinance pertaining to the ministerie of the Church . As for the i i T.C. lib. 1. pa. 192. making of orders and ceremonies in the church , they do ( when there is a constituted and ordered church ) pertaine vnto the ministers of the church , and to the ecclesiasticall gouernors : and that as they meddle not with the making of ciuile lawes , and lawes for the common-wealth , so the ciuile magistrate hath not to ordaine ceremonies pertaining to the church . The k k T.C. lib. 1. pa. 193. ministers are to determine of controuersies as they arise , and to make or abolish needfull or hurtfull ceremonies . Herevnto may be added that which is before obserued : how he ascribeth the same right in church causes , T.C. lib. 3. pa. 162. 163. to an infidel or prophane magistrat , that he doth to any Christian princes : and of their mutuall agreement with the Pope himselfe , in the manner of both their excluding of Christian magistrats , from hauing any thing to do , as vnder Christ , in his Church .

Hitherto then concerning all these puritane-popish assertious ( so much derogating from the lawfull authoritie of Christian princes . ) There is but only this difference betwixt them & the rankest Iesuits in Europe , that what the one sort , ascribe to the Pope and his shauelings : the other do challenge to themselues and their Aldermen . Vpon which occasion Cartwright , T.C. lib. 1. p. 193. finding himselfe with his fellowes ranged , to walke step by step with such a crue , taketh vpon him , T.C. lib. 3. pa. 167. like some dawber or bricklaier , to make a high wall ( as he tearmeth it ) betwixt the Papists , and them in this point . But God knoweth , it is a simple one , and so thinne , that you may easily looke through it , and discerne them marching both togither . First ( sayth he ) the Papists exempt their priests from the punishment of the ciuile magistrate , T.C. p. 193. which we doe not . It is reason in deed , you should not . But if you doe not , what doe these things mean ? The author of the second admonition desireth , that he and his companions may be deliuered by act of Parlement , from the authoritie of the ciuile magistrates , Admon . 2. p. 61. as Iustices , and others , and from their inditings and finings . Furthermore where Cartwright sayth , that the authoritie of christian Princes commeth immediately from God , Lib. 2. p. and not from Christ as he is mediator : and that the authoritie of the sword is the same ordinance of God , as well in heathen princes , as in Christians : doth it not follow , that in his iudgement Christian princes haue no authoritie ouer any of their subiects , but only as they are men , and not as they are either Christians or priests ? If you thinke it doth not , then what T.C. wanteth , I.B. p. 82. I.B. doth supplie , and that in proper tearmes , as if it please you to peruse the place , it will appeare vnto you . Besides , there goeth a letter from hand to hand , written by certaine gentlemen of Suffolke , to the Lords of her maiesties councell , wherein there is great complaint made in the behalfe of certaine of the brotherhood , as a matter fit to bee reformed : that being ministers they had at their assises bene presented , brought to the barre , endicted , arraigned , and condemned . Which dealing they tearme to be very hard , and tending to the vtter discredit of the whole ministerie , and profession of truth . So that of all likelihood ( for all Cartwrights saying ) both he and his fellowes , could be well contented to be exempted from the ciuile magistrats .

But let vs heare the papists vpon this point , or first part of Cartwrights wall , and peraduenture you shall find them as forward for their subiection herein , as hee himselfe is , or at the least as small a difference betwixt them , as euer you saw , though it were betweene two twi●nes Good a a Harding against the Apo. 306.307 kings may put bishops and priests in mind of their duties , and bridle both their riot and arrogancie . The b b Hard. ibid. 303. prince , by the word of God , may make lawes for the obseruation of both tables , and punish the trangressors . I do here presently offer my selfe , Fecknam to B. Horne . to receaue a corporall ●ath vpon the Euangelists , that I do vtterly thinke , and am persuaded in my conscience , that the Queenes highnesse is the onely supreme gouernour of this realme , and of all other her highnesse dominions and countries , &c. And further , I shall presently sweare , that her highnesse hath vnder God , the soueraignty and rule ouer all maner of persons , borne within these her highnesse realms , of what estate ecclestasticall or temporall soeuer they be . Saunders de vis . Mona . li. 2. cap. 3. Fatemur , person as Episcoparum qui in toto orbe fuerunt , Romano imperatori subiectos fuisse : We confesse , that the persons of all the Bishops in the world , were subiect to the Romane emperour . Rex praeest hominibus Christianis , verum non quia sunt Christiani , sed quia sunt homines , & quoniam ipsi episcopi sunt homines , episcopis etiam ea ex parte rex praeesset ; The king ruleth christians , not as they are christians , but as they are men , & because bishops are men , the king , in that respect , hath authoritie ouer them . Harding also confesseth , that if the causes be ciuile and temporall , ( and all other causes our reformers do tie to their Elderships ) Bishops may be conuented before ciuile authoritie . Reioynder fol. 379. And it appeareth amongst all the learned Papists , Pet. Mart. de magi . sect. 23. that the cheese prerogatiue they haue had in this point , Hard. so. 229. hath proceeded from the meere fauour and good will of Christian Princes , Def. of the Apol. 664. the rather to couer and keepe from the people such faults in the Clergie , as might breed their contempt . Hitherto then , this wall riseth vp but easily , especially if I should adde in this place , the brethren of Scotland , their diuinitie for this matter , when they ( not the Papists ) gaue the king and state occasion to make it ( by act of Parlement 1584 ) treason , Acts of par-lement . ca. 2. for any man to refuse to answer before the king , though it were concerning any matter which was ecclesiasticall .

Now concerning the second part of Cartwrights wall , T. C. 2.2 . p. 164. lin. 29. it is this : The Papists ( sayth he ) will haue the Prince to execute whatsoeuer they conclude , be it good or bad : we say that if there be no lawfull ministerie ( as in time of necessitie Dauid did eat the shew bread , which was otherwise lawfull for the priests only to eat of , ) that then the Prince ought to set order : and that when there is a lawfull ministerie , if it shall agree of any vnlawfull thing , the Prince ought to stay it . Surely you are very proper and right liberall sayers . Doth not your admonisher affirme , that if your platforme were once on foot , all men must stand vnto the determinations of your maiesticall church officers , ( that I may vse maister Wakes tearme ) except it should happen in some matter of faith , they should make decrees against the word of God ? And ( I pray you ) if any such thing should happen , how could the king reforme it , or ( as you say ) stay it ? He iudgeth their sayd orders to be erronious , and perceaueth the mischiefes that do depend vpon them : but how shall he redresse and preuent them ? Shall he compell the authors of them to assemble themselues together againe , and to retract and condemne all such their decrees ? They are of that humor ( as experience hath told vs ) that it is vnlikely they will be compelled to any thing . No , it were too great a disgrace for them to yeeld in any thing , that once they haue broached , were it good or bad , but especially when it is decreed in any of their worshipfull meetings . And besides , if the king should presse them too far in such a matter , he might find them ( peraduenture ) but very ticklish subiects .

Cartwright , to shuffle vp some blundering answer to these points , Lib. 3. p. 167. sayth : That if in such a case the church ministers should shew themselues obstinate , and would not be aduised by the Prince , they should thereby prooue themselues to be an vnlawfull ministerie , & that vpon such an occasion the Prince might remooue them . Remouethē ? How ? By any ordinarie authoritie , which you do allow to the christian magistrats in causes ecclesiasticall ? But you haue told vs before your mind herein . In effect , that it must be done by an extraordinarie authoritie , euen by the same right that Dauid did eat of the shew-bread , which ( were it not in such a case of necessitie ) none but the Priests might in any wise eat of . For otherwise ( as it is before mentioned ) where such a platforme is in execution , as they seeke for , the Prince hath not any thing to doe ( by their doctrine , God knoweth ) either with placing or displacing of church ministers .

Or , if Cartwright will say that I wrest his words to the worst construction , and that he meaneth plainely as purposing thereby to confirme ( for his part ) her maiesties ordinarie & supreme authoritie in those maner of causes : I am content he make the best of his owne words that he can , whether he meant ordinarie , or extraordinarie authoritie , so that when he hath done , he will stand vnto it . But let him say , what he is able , yet he hath a woolfe by the eares , and shall neuer be able so to shift his hands , but that it will follow , that both he , and all the pastors , doctors , and elders , that are combined with him , are by his words both obstinate and vnlawfull ministers , except he shall withdraw this part of his wall , as being to weake to make such a separation from the papists , as he pretendeth .

For , notwithstanding that the present gouernment of the church of England , is established and confirmed by a nationall synod , with the generall consent of the whole land , to be a most lawful & godly forme of gouernment , notwithstanding that her Maiestie doth so thinke of it , and hath shewed herselfe many waies ( as by her acts of parlement , her proclamations , her sundry speeches , yea by the punishing & imprisoning of some certaine persons ) vtterly to dislike of their pretended discipline , as being , in her princely iudgement , a meere forgerie , & vaine conceit of busie & restlesse heads , contrary to the word of God , and ancient practise of all the godly churches in the world , for 1500 yeares : all these things I say , notwithstanding , yet they haue rayled , libelled , & raged against the said present gouernment . They haue , and do still , neglect , as well her maiesties setled iudgment , of the vnlawfulnesse of their decreed platforme , as also her lawes , her pleasure , and many commandements , that they should desist hereafter , from that their erronious deuise , and submit themselues quietly to the forme established . Nay , they are so far from yeelding , in this point , to any authoritie of her maiestie ; whether ordinarie or extraordinarie , as that they haue attempted by very vnlawfull and seditious means , to aduance their purposes against her highnesse will , and do plainly giue it out , that they wil not desist , they will not hold their peace , they will haue their desires , though they be driuen to vndertake such means for that end , as will make their hearts to ake , who are their cheese impugners .

Stand now to your words , maister Cartwright , if you meant plainly , vz. If the ministerie shall agree of any vnlawfull thing , the prince ought to stay it : and then are not all the packe of you concluded , by your said answer , to be obstinat persons and a false ministerie ? If you haue any refuge in the world , it is this ; that whatsoeuer the said nationall councell , the learned mens opinions that do impugne you , the lawes of this realme , all the ancient churches , and her maiestie relying vpon them : whatsoeuer they altogether do thinke & iudge to be lawfull : you care not , or you are sory for it , but all that notwithstanding , you are sure , for that you haue decreed amongst your selues , vz. that you haue not therein erred , and therefore they must all beare with you , though you rest your selues vpon the truth of your own decrees , & giue no place either to councel , law , prince , fathers , learned men , or any other authoritie whatsoeuer , that maketh against you . And will not H.N. and Barow , will not al hereticks & schismaticks say as much ? where is then the princes authoritie you spake of ? For staying such kind of proceeding , what course shall he take ? These ministers ( as I sayd ) conclude vpon their owne deuises . The king considereth of them , and findeth them vnlawfull , but they denie it ; what shall hee do ? Your refuge , Cartwright , is euerie Heretickes refuge . If her Maiestie , with all the reasons mentioned , cannot stay you and your sect , let neuer any king or ciuile magistrat looke by any authoritie , which you do giue vnto them in causes ecclesiasticall , to stay the fancies of any such fellowes . But the substance of all their deuises is nothing , but pretences of things that are not . And agreeable therevnto is this second part of Cartwrights wall , ( of the difference betweene him and the Papists ) who in effect ( for ought I see ) are as franke to Christian Princes , euen in this point , as either he or his fellowes .

Princes a a Conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317. extraordinarily ( sayth Harding ) haue laudably intermedled with Religion , as iudges and rulers of spirituall causes . Good b b Ibid. fo. 304. Christian Princes euer tooke into their hands the carefull charge or procuration of Churches , as pertaining to their dutie . Good c c Hard. ibid. Kings and Princes do maintain true religion , and by the aduise of their priests ( when any great defections happen ) do pull down the false . And where Cartwright doth charge the Papists to constraine their Princes for the keeping of their decrees , be they good or bad : although it be true in deed that they do so , and that those of his owne stampe likewise where they raigne , are nothing more fauourable vnto them , as farre as their might will reach : yet as he doth in this matter prefer himselfe and his adherents before them , it is but a meere cauil . For the Papists holding this ground , that their Councels and Popes , in such their decrees and conclusions ( as it pleaseth them to make ) cannot erre : that being graunted , it followeth of necessitie , that euery Christian Prince ought to put them in execution , and to punish those that shall oppose themselues against them . So that whatsoeuer they do impose vpon the Church , they affirme it is good : euen as Cartwright doth his discipline , which he would intrude vpon vs : both of them ioining in this point , that as wel Cartwrights new ministery , as the popes priesthood , will be the iudges of their owne decrees , whether they be good or bad : and then what leaue they to the Christian magistrat more the one sort then the other ?

Surely this wall riseth very slowly as yet , but peraduenture the third part will be higher than the other two : when you haue viewed them , iudge . Our meaning is not ( sayth Cartwright ) vtterly to seclude the magistrat out of our T.C. 2.2 . p. 164. & 167. church-meetings , for often times , a simple man & ( as the prouerbe sayth ) the Gardiner hath spoken to good purpose , &c. He may be assistant and haue his voice in such assemblies . Out of question you deale very bountifully with your soueraign . But to helpe him in building this part of his wall , I will set downe , what is the vttermost that he yeeldeth to , herein ; if hee haue not retracted the same , as afterward it shall be considered . The a a T.C. 2.2 . p. 157. Prince may call a councell of the ministerie and b b T.C. ib. 161 appoint both the time and the houres for the same . The c c T.C. 2.2.162.167.161 ciuile magistrat is not vtterly to be excluded from such assemblies as do meet for the deciding of church-causes and orders : he may be there assistant and haue his voice , but he may not be either moderator there , nor determiner , nor iudge . d d bid . 156. Neither may the orders or decrees there made , be sayd to haue bene done by the Princes authoritie . And therefore in times past the cannons of councels , were not called the Emperors , but the Bishops decrees . e e bid . 161. Princes may be assistant in councels , and ought to defend the same assembled : if any behaue themselues there tumultuously or otherwise disorderly , the Prince may punish him . The f f T.C. 2.2 . 157. Prince ought to confirme the decrees of such councels : to g g T.C. 12.193 . see the decrees executed : and h h T.C. 2.2 . p. 156. to punish the contemners of them . Thus hereof Cartwright , and now come in the papists .

It a a Saunders . lib. 2. c. 3. was lawfull in times past for emperors to call councels , to b b Ibid. appoint both time and place for the same . And maister c c Confut. Apol. par. 6. 309. Harding confesseth , that princes may do so still by the aduise of the clergie . Princes d d Hard. fol. 217. fol. 314. and their embassadors , according to their estates , haue most honourable seats in all councels , may sit there as assistants , giue their aduises , make exhortations to the Bishops , to be very circumspect and carefull , and in the end , may subscribe with them to the causes there decreed . But e e fol. 313.310.315 . they may not sit there as iudges , moderators , or determiners , f f Hard. 317. and therfore in their subscriptions they wrōt not as bishops did , definientes subscripsimus , but consentientes . Neither g gard . 312 were the councels called Imperatoria , but Episcopalia . Princes h h He Monarch . lib. 2. cap. 3. may be assistant in councels . Nay ( sayth Saunders ) they may be presidents ouer Bishops in councels , ad pacem & concordiam retinendam , vt nullum fieri tumultum permittant : tumultuantem vero custodiae mancipent , and cause such assemblies to auoid all delaies . All i i Hard. conf. Apol. par. 6. p. 317. Christian princes ought to confirme the decrees of generall councels : to see k k Saun. lib. 2. cap. 3. the decrees executed , and to punish the contemners of them .

Compare these places with Cartwrights words , and tell me what great difference ye find betweene them . But what if Cartwright ( as I sayd ) haue retracted these points ? then it must needs be confessed that the Papists do yeeld more to Christian princes in causes ecclesiastical , then the puritans .

CHAP. XXIIII . Their disagreement in suppressing the authoritie of Princes in church-causes , and in the aduancing of their own .

IT appeareth in the latter end of the two and twentith chapter , how by a fine distinction , of raigning vnder Christ as he is onely God , and vnder Christ , as he is mediator : they first , would exclude all Christian princes from their lawfull authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall , ascribing no more vnto them , then as if they were heathens , except it be to execute their pleasures , and to maintaine them , which they say , is the dutie also of all the heathen rulers : and secondly how by the same distinction , they lift vp their own horns , as if it were so many popes , challenging euery one of them together with their elderships , to be Christs immediat vicars for church-causes , vpon earth . In the substance of which doctrine although they do all agree , yet when they come to the particular grounds , whervpon they would gladly lay their foundations of it , there they are distracted , and do confound themselues . I meane not , to enter here any further into this matter , then as concerning the sayd distinction with the seuerall branches thereof .

Cartwright bestoweth soure leaues , Lib. 2. a. p. 410. ad . p. 419. to prooue , that no ciuile magistrat may be called the head of the particular church , within his dominion . And his cheefest reasons are drawn , from the parts of the distinction mentioned . Now , when he laboureth so much vpon this word head , hee knoweth that we meane thereby nothing els , but a chiefe authoritie : and he wrangleth of purpose , that whereas his opinion is direct , that no ciuile magistrat ( as he is a ciuile magistrat ) hath any office in the Church , he might dazle the eies of his reader , as though he could bee content to maintaine the right of the crowne , and did only insist vpon the word head .

But to muster them together about the said distinction , Cartwright sayth that our Sauiour Christ , Lib 2 p. 411.417 . as hee is the sonne of God only , or as he is onely the Creator and preseruer of mankind , coequall with his father , he is the gouernour of kingdoms and common-wealths , and not as hee is the sauiour and redeemer of mankind . But the humble motioner doth tell vs from Scotland , another tale : peraduenture vpon the credit of the brethren there . Humble motio . so. 1. Christ ( sayth he ) hath all power and superioritie aboue all principalities , either in heauen or in earth : he is Lord of lords , and King of kings , and the Prince of kings in the earth ; he is Lord of all kingdoms and common-wealths , to dispose and rule them at his pleasure : not simply as he is the second person in Trinitie , God aboue all ; but as he is the sonne of God manifested in the flesh . Nay , he goeth further , and sayth : that Christ hath all this authoritie , not only as he is both God and man , but that he hath it euen as he is man .

Lib. 2. p. 411. Cartwright sayth : that our sauiour Christ in the gouernment of kingdoms and common-wealths , and in the superioritie which he hath ouer kings & iudges , hath no superior . But if we shall beleeue the sayd motioner : he is as directly contrarie vnto him in this assertion , as he was in the former . F. 1.2 . For ( sayth he ) our sauiour Christ as he is King of kings , Lord of lords , and the ruler and disposer of all kingdoms of the earth : he hath receaued that authoritie of his father , and so hath it 1. Cor. 15.24 . If it shall be maruailed , that the humble motioner , peraduenture some swaine , in respect of Cartwright , dare thus presume to incounter with such a Goliah , especially hauing an whole armie no doubt that will , and his vizgerent Trauers , that dooth already assist him : he may be easily satisfied , in that Beza on the other side ( a man of farre greater account in Scotland than Cartwright is in England ) hath promised , and pawned his iudgement , to backe the motioner in these points . For hee is wholy of the motioners opinion : Pater non nisi in persona filij manifestati in carne mundum regit . Annot. 10.5.6.22 . God the Father ( sayth he ) doth not gouerne the world , but onely in the person of his sonne manifested in the flesh . And agayne : he alloweth of the Fathers where they hold that Proprie humanae naturae respectu dicitur datum esse filio potestatem coeli ac terrae : when it is sayd that power is giuen to the sonne , of heauen and earth : it is spoken properly , in respect of his humane nature receaued . The world is gouerned only by Christ , as he is manifested in the flesh : therefore not onely ( as Cartwright sayth ) as he is God . The gouernment of the world is committed to the sonne of God , as he is manifested in the flesh : therfore ( contrary to Cartwright ) he hath therein a superior . Christ the sonne of God hath the gouernment of heauen and earth assigned vnto him properly in respect of his humane nature , which he hath receaued : and therefore not only as he is the sonne of God coequall with the Father , as Cartwright affirmeth .

So as , whatsoeuer either Cartwright , Trauers , or any of their followers , shal enforce , against the authoritie of christian princes , in respect vz. that they with all the heathen gouernors do hold their scepters immediatly vnder christ , as he is God only , and not as he is their mediator : it is all but as vntempered morter , nothing fit for the purpose , as other of their friends do iudge : and ( as it seemeth by Beza in the place quoted ) might peraduenture ( if it were thorowly followed ) touch them neerer then they are aware of , as men not fully persuaded of the most high and mighty prerogatiue of the person of Christ Iesus . But let that go , I am glad to heare that christian magistrats may haue somthing to do vnder Christ , as he is their mediator . And what if it may appeare , that holding their gouernment vnder him , as mediator , they may haue some authoritie also vnder him , as he is the head of the church ? I know , that would come quite cam to Cartwrights humor . Neuerthelesse it is reason , that men should be heard . The humble motioner affirmeth : that the Lord Iesus hath the regiment and power ouer all principalities , F. 1. either in heauen or earth , not simplie as hee is God , but as he is Christ , God and man , and so the head of the church . Let these places of scripture , Ephesians 1. vers. 20 , 21 , 22 , 23. and Colossians 1. vers. 16 , 17 , 18 , 19 , 20. be effectually considered , ( where there is speech of the great prerogatiue which Christ hath in the world , as he is head of the church ) and they do wholy run that way . In so much as Caluin writing vpon one of those epistles Ephes. 1. ver. 23. sayth : Calu. in . ephes. 1. v. 23. Nihil impedit quo minus de vniuersali gubernatione accipias . There is no impediment , wby you may not vnderstand it , of Christs vniuersall gouernment .

But more fitly to this purpose Beza , where speaking of Christ as the head of the Church , Confess ca. 5. artic. 1. & . 23. de magistrat p. 556. and of such officers as he hath appointed vnder him : he accounteth the ciuile magistrat for one , as before it hath bene noted . But Snecanus is resolute , and accounteth them aduersaries & Anabaptists , that shall denie it : affirming , that by rulers and gouernours , Rom. 12. and 1. Cor. 12. ( where the Apostle speaketh of the body of Christ ) the ciuile magistrats are vnderstood , p. 557. as well as their Aldermen : that they are to be reckoned inter officia ecclesiae : p. 668. nay , inter dona ecclesiae , Ephesi . 4. though they be not there named : and , that , it is therefore great rashnesse to exclude the ciuile authoritie , out of the church , Nisihanc simul tollere velint , p. 557. Except they meane to abolish it altogether . Indeed , I like this exception well , and so I do also of his opinion . For me thinketh , that if kings and princes be ioint commissioners vnder Christ the head , with their pastors , doctors , and aldermen , assigned by the Apostle for the gouernment of the church , they might be well content , and reckon it no disparagement vnto the best of them , that the prince their soueraigne , should beare the chiefest and the greatest sway amongst them .

And all this maketh directly against Cartwright , euen as though men of purpose should haue studied to haue disgraced him : which surely needeth not . For if his own writings were narrowly looked into , there is sufficient in them , to discipher him in his colours . Lib. 2. p. 470. I meruaile what he meaneth when he writeth , that a king was necessarie for the Israelits , to shadow out to them the kingdome of Christ . Would he leaue his scholers at libertie to reason , as the Apostle doth , when they should see their time ? Christ is now come in the flesh , & being our high priest , hath performed the worke of our saluation : therfore the priesthood of Aaron being but a shadow of Christs priesthood , ought now to cease . And euen so they , when they list : The kingdome of Christ , is now come vnto vs , & therefore the hauing of a king being but a shadow of Christs kingdome , ought now to cease . Surely this commeth neare to Snecanus coniecture , vz. Nisihanc simul tollere velint . But to omit surmises , & many such thinges els , which I maruel at in him , you shall find him so violent in this cause , as rather then he will graunt , that Christian magistrats may bee subordinate heads , or cheefe gouernours in church affaires vnder Christ their sauiour , within their own dominions , he can be content to reason , as if he were a notorious Swinkfeldian , and meant to abolish all the ministers of the word , as needlesse instruments vnder Christ , for the building , feeding , and comforting of his church . For thus he argueth : Li● . p. 413. that for as much as Christ is neuer seuered from his body , nor from any part of it , and is able , and dooth performe that wherefore he is called head , vnto all his Church , therefore there is no need of any subordinate head ouer any particular Church , or ( as he sayth ) there can be none . As if a man should reason thus : Christ is our sauiour , our priest , our prophet , and our king : Christ is our sheapheard , our doctor , and our archbishop : Christ is neuer absent from his church , nor euer will be : and he is able to performe that , wherefore he is called , our sauiour , our priest , our prophet , our pastor , our doctor , our bishop , our archbishop , our archfeeder : therefore we need no priests , pastors , doctors , bishops , or archbishops , neither ought there to be any such subordinate , or ministeriall meanes allowed of , or permitted for the sayd benefits , of building , teaching , and gathering of the church . The collections ( in my opinion ) are both alike .

Againe , by the same phrase of speech : that Christ , as mediator , is called by him els-where , the head of euery particular church , Lib. 2. p. 416. and in that respect euery particular church is tearmed his body . So Christ as he is the sonne of God only ( to graunt him for a minute so much ) being the head of euery particular kingdome : it may be said , that euery particular kingdome is his body . Now then , whereas he reasoneth thus , very grauely in his owne iudgement : If the church be the body of Christ and of the ciuile magistrat , Lib. 2. p. 412. it should haue two heads , which were monstrous . Why may not I in like sort make this inference ? if the common-wealth be the body of Christ , and of the ciuile magistrat , it should haue two heads which were monstrous : which collection being ridiculous ( by his own phrase offspeech ) his said argument , is also ridiculous . For my part certainly I do thinke that the word heard , as it is yeelded to christian princes , signifying nothing els ( as I sayd ) but a cheefe ruler , I see no cause then , why it should be a more monstrous thing , for than to be subordinat rulers of the church vnder christ , then to see princes thrust downe , and six or seuen base persons , a malster , a brewer , a baker , a mason , a smith , a butcher , a tinker , and such like aduanced , to that , so high an authoritie .

Well ▪ as our prouerbe sayth : Be it as it bee may , and that is no banning . If Princes will bee thus dallyed withall , let them for me , and they shall bee the first that will repent it . But what should they do , when they heare their authoritie , so substantially impugned , by so worthie persons , with such inuincible arguments , such demonstrations , such collections , such concurrencie in their opinions , such concord , such notable agreement together , in their grounds , for that purpose ? Indeed you will say so , when you shall see how , ( after they haue foiled princes in such sort as it hath bene declared ) they intitle themselues , and their wise and worshipfull Eldermen to their authoritie . You cannot imagine mens bodies , to be faster tied together , with the strongest rope that euer was made of sand , then their minds , and iudgements are fast lincked , and vnited in this matter . As now it shall partly appeare , after I haue layd before you three or foure of their new quircks , very pertinent to this place : some of them haue bene alreadie touched , but you cannot heare a good thing too often .

They affirme ( if I can vnderstand them ) that euery wel ordered parish , Demonst. Mart. Thes. T.C. 1.2 . p. 412.419 . hauing an Eldership in it , is the perfect bodie of Christ , & that Christ is properly to be called as well the head of euery such particular body or church , as he is of the Catholicke church . T.C. l. 2 p. 416. &c. Against whome by the way I might oppose a chiefe diuine of New stadium ( a Consistorian towne in the Palsgraues countrie ) who sayth , that as the Church is called the body of Christ , Pezel . M. 7. par ob mel . p. 31. it properly signifieth , Solos electos , the elect onely , and that all particular churches , Ibid. p. 178.345 . as the members of the Catholike church , do make but one body of Christ : whereof hee is to bee called especially the head . But I will not stand vpon these points , onely I touch them that it might still appeare how well they agree together . Then to proceed . The same men likewise affirme that euery one of their mentioned well ordered parishes , is a representation , and as it were , T.C. l. 1. p. 147 a liuely portraiture of the whole or Catholicke church : and that singularum ecclesiarum idem est ius , euery such parish Catholicke church , Disc. eccl. sacr. pa. 1. hath equall authoritie , no more one then another .

And now I draw nere to the pith of this matter . For as touching the gouernment of euery one of these particular bodies of Christ , or of euery one of these demie catholicke churches , they hold that ( princes being iustly dispossessed ) their pastors , doctors , and aldermen , are by right , Christs immediat and subordinat lieutenants , or vicars generall . But now , for as much as our sauiour Christ ( say some of them ) is a priest , a prophet , and a king , and all in respect that he is both God and man , our only mediator and redeemer . Here beginneth a new skitmish , from which of these his dignities they must deriue their interest , whether their said vice-gerents are to challenge their soueraigntie , from Christ , as he is a priest , from Christ as hee is a prophet , or from Christ , as he is a king . For as the great learned clearke , that made the booke of ecclesiastical and ciuile policie affirmeth , I.B. de polit. pa. 68. whosoeuer is to be called Christs vicar , hee must be so tearmed either in respect of all those his three offices , or of two of them , or of one at the least .

It hath bene commonly held heretofore , that Christ taking vpon him the ministerie of the gospell , to preach and teach the same , did ordaine his Apostles and disciples , to ioine with him , in that part of his priestly office . In regard whereof , it hath also bene defended , against the papists , that euery lawfull minister , is as much the vicar of Christ , or his substitute , to teach his people , as the bishop of Rome , and that they ought , all of them equally , when they preach the word , pray for the people , or administer the sacraments , to be receiued , heard and intertained , as Christs embassadors , Christs ministers , euen as though Christ himself in his own person , did presently here vpon earth execute these offices . Besides , it is vrged by the Counterpoizer , Countecp . pa. 12. & many other , that Christ hauing translated the Iewes Sanedrim into his church , he hath appointed vnto vs for the Iewes priests , our pastors , and for their teaching Leuits , our doctors , &c. Whereby it followeth , that if the priests of the old law were Christs vicars , as he was their priest : the pastors ought so to be in the time of the gospel . But the excellent politian , I. B. he vseth the matter in such sort , as by no means the ministers of the word , may haue any tenure of their offices , vnder christ as he is priest . Ne ipsi quidem pastores erunt Christi sacerdotis vicarij , quod tamen falso sibi persuasit papa diaboli vicarius . The pastors themselues shall not be Christ's vicars , as he is priest , which office notwithstanding , the pope the diuels vicar , tooke falsely vpon him .

The pastors ( he saith ) shall not be Christs vicars , as he is a priest . And then ther is no remedie : They shal not . How shal they hold then , immediatly of him ? as he is a prophet . That is it . They are his substitutes or vicars ( saith hee ) onely as he is a prophet . Ibid. pa. 74. Did any man euer say so before ? Surely not to my remembrance . Fenner . Theol. pa. 96. Maister Fenner in his diuinitie , perused by maister Cartwright , and allowed of at Geneua , can find but two kinds of offices appertaining to Christ , vz. his priesthood , and his kingly office , and therfore he maketh prophesie a part of his priesthood . It is much what , also to the same purpose ( and directly contrary to I. B. ) that the diuinitie grounds printed at Geneua , do affirme by the mouth of one Abraham Henric , Thes. Geneu . pa. 219. where they say : Pastorum ministerium vt olim sacerdotum , &c. The dutie of pastors , as in times past of the priests , consisteth in three things ; teaching , administring of the sacraments , & publicke praier . So as either I.B. must be content that ministers may be Christs vicars , as he is a priest , or else I see not how he will bestow them . You will say peraduenture , that they may be Christs vice-gerents , as he is a king ; but that ( as I sayd ) he will not indure . If any might be Christs vicars ( sayth he ) as he is a king , I.B. deposit . pa. 70. the Apostles , Prophets , Euangelists , Ministers and Doctors , might be his vicars . At ne hi quidem , quia rex est dicendi sunt vicarij . But they neither , are to be called Christs vicars , as he is a king . Well , some place they must haue , there is no remedie . I dare say , you would smile , if it should so fall out , that all our consistorian ministers , will needs bee Christs substitutes , in that he is a king . Surely , I must tell you , it proueth so .

For as touching I. B. they reckon him ( I perceaue ) but a simple politian . Christs kingdome , it hath bene truly vrged , is not of this world : & it is plea good enough against our bishops , but it holdeth not , to impaire the estimation of our petit consistorian kings . A distinction will helpe them at a pinch . Christs kingdome is not of this world , but it ought to be in this world . Do you not here desire to know what this kingdome is ? That I may not keepe you long in suspence , it is the Geneuian Eldership , and euen the very same kingdome ( saith our counterpoizer ) where of Christ spake many times after his resurrection , Counterp . pa. 10. by the space of sortie daies , as the Iesuits themseluss are compelled to confesse . See the seducer . Who compelled the Iesuits to say so ? would not a man haue thought , that this place had bene vrged by some protestants against the papists , for the ouerthrow of some especiall points of poperie , wher vpon after much paines the Iesuits bad bene driuen in spight of their heads , to admit of the interpretation mentioned . But it is clean contrary : the Iesuits do abuse this place of purpose , in the behalfe of the Antichristian & Romish form of church regiment , & so doth the Counterpoizer , following the Iesuits therin , for the setting forth of their Geneuian papacy , or Regalitie .

I could adde here a number of strange sayings ( whereof you shall here anon in some other chapters following ) concerning this new presbiteriall kingdome . But now it is more pertinent , to make the point I haue in hand , more apparant vnto you . T.C. lib. 2. pa. 440. Christ as a king , prescribed the forme of ecclesiasticall gouernment , saith Cartwright , not as a priest , nor as a prophet , but as a king . With Cartwright his scholler Dudlie Fenner , Fenner . The. lib. 4. p. 110. doth agree in this point , & setteth downe the first part of his kingly administration to be about the building and continuance of the church by the officers appointed , Bez. annot. Ioh. 18. v. 36. Ep. 83. Eph. 4.11.12.13 . Maister Beza also he runneth the same course : how Christ being a king , the head of the church , doth administer his kingdome . Per legitime vocatos pastores , G. Sonnij . op. Tom. 1. p. 399. &c. by pastors lawfully called . And Sonnius in like manner affirmeth , that Christ doth execute his kingly office in the collection of the church , by the ministerie of the word and sacraments , and by the internall gouernment of his spirit , and the external of the ministerie . Here is indeed , very roiall preferment : for al the ministers of the word . But I meruaile how the ruling elders do hold their authoritie ? They are neither priests nor prophets , of likelihood then , they must be little kings . Wel then , Christ is the king , the presbiterie is his kingdome , & his immediat vice-gerents they are all of them . What ? Surely , by the due course of degrees ( which are acknowledged ) the pastors must be all of them ( as it were ) emperors , the doctors kings , the elders dukes , and the deacons lords of the treasurie , &c. And for the authoritie of euery such kingdom , it must needs fal out to be very soueraign . For if euery presbiterie ( as it is before noted ) be properly to be called the body of Christ , and the true portraiture of the catholick church , & that euery one of them , is of equall authoritie : now that the officers in them are Christs immediat vice-gerents within their own kingdoms , who shall controll any of their doings , or whither should a man appeale , if he found himselfe iniuried .

De presb . p. 124 I remember maister Bezas saying , That euery eldership is the tribunall seat of Christ . Which is all one almost , with the assertion of some Romish parasits , that the pope and Christ , haue but one consistorie . They tell vs of appellations from an eldership , to a classis , from a classis , to a prouinciall synod , from a prouincial synod , to a nationall , & from a nationall , vnto a generall councell . But as the papists do make euery appellation from the pope , to be as absurd , and all one , as if the appeale were made from Christ , so must it necessarily follow , to be as vntollerable to appeale from any consistorie , it being ( as it hath bene affirmed ) the tribunall seat of Christ , and the officers in it , Christs immediat gouernors . And because it is pretended , that the regiment they speake of , is in the best perfection at Geneua , I would gladly know whither a man might appeale ( vpon occasion ) from that eldership there . The churches of Bern , or Zuricke , haue no more to do with the church of Geneua ( they will say ) then Geneua hath to do with them , or an eldership in Scotland , with another of the low countries . But I haue taried too long vpon this matter , in collecting vpon their contrarie assertions . Therefore to conclude , I would wish all christian and godly magistrats , that haue as yet in their hands , the lawfull authoritie in church-causes , which belongeth vnto them by the word of God , to keepe it stil , vntill at the least these disciplinarie deuisers , be fully resolued , whether we must account them priest , prophets , or kings : priests , if they be Christs substitutes , as he is a priest : prophets , if they be Christs substitutes , as he is a prophet : and kings by the same proprietie of speech : if they be Christs immediat substitutes , as he is a king . And so I will go to the next chapter , wherby you shall perceaue more particularly , that ( call them as ye list ) they challenge authoritie , like princes , or rather popes , to deale in many matters .

CAP. XXV . In what causes more particularly , their elderships are to deale , as they pretend .

YOu haue heard before , Cap. 15.16.17 . of certaine of the seuerall and ioint offices of their counterfeit church-aldermen : and likewise in the chapter , how they challenge to themselues , in their elderships , the whole gouernment in all church-causes . Now for that it might bee doubted how farre these words , Church causes should extend : they haue taken great paines to cleare their meaning in that behalfe , and so haue vsed the matter ( to my vnderstanding ) as that they haue left out no one cause , of what nature soeuer , but that either directly , or indirectly , by hooke or crooke , they haue brought it vnder their lee , and with-within their compasse . Read their sayings , and then iudge as you see cause .

All crimes ( saith Knox ) that by the law of God deserue death , The order of excom. in Scotland . Ae. 2 deserue also excommunication : as wilfull murderers , adulterers , sorcerers , witches , coniurers , charmers , giuers of drinke to destroy children , open blasphemers , as denyers of the truth , raylors against the Sacraments , &c. And how will they proceed in the execution of this censure , vpon such manner of sinnes : the same order doth specifie . A superintendent must direct his letters of summons to the parish church , where the offender dwelleth : or if the offender haue no certaine dwelling place , then to the chiefe towne , and best reformed church in that diocesse , where the crime was committed , appointing to the offender , a certain day and place when & wher he shal appeare before the superintendent & his assessors , to heare that crime tried , as touching the truth of it , and to answer for himselfe , why the sentence of excommunication should not be pronounced against him .

Here are then new summons , and new citations . Here is authoritie challenged , not only to appoint such offices , and to vse such iurisdiction : but ( that which seemeth strange to me indeed ) to trie a murderer , and such like offendors , as ( touching the very facts ) whether they committed them , or not . Do they impanall a iurie thinke you , as we do in England , for triall of the fact ? or are the elders of the consistorie iudges of the facts , as they be of law ? That is not expressed . But what if the partie vpon his summons appeare not ? Ibid. That is no great matter . Inquisition being taken of the crime , he is the next Sunday to be excommunicated : not for his contempt in not appearing , but for the very fact it selfe , as in their form of excommunication in such cases , it is expressed . For the inquisition of the crime taken in his wilfull absence , shall be a conuiction for his soule : let his body escape the temporall magistrats hands as it may .

This is round dealing . A man is condemned of murder , and neuer heard : & for sitting , but of one citation in a matter of life and death , out goeth their excommunication ? Call they this , proceeding after the new discipline ? But to follow this case to the end . It happeneth , that this murderer is afterward pardoned by the magistrat , but yet though hee professe repentance , he may not be receaued till after fortie daies of triall , and vntill hee hath satisfied the kinred and friends of the man that was slaine . You may say , what if they will not be satisfied ? That I warrant you is prouided for . Ibid. Then ought the church to put moderation to the vnreasonable , in case the ciuile magistrat hath not so done before . It is very well , what the king will not , they may . Besides , when it is sayd , that the church ought to put such a moderation : you must vnderstand that except the parties do agree to be so put , out flieth againe ( as I suppose ) their foresaid slipperie censure .

Againe , Ibid. A. 6.7 . for all other offences that fall not vnder the ciuile sword , and yet are slanderous and offensiue to the church , as fornication , drunkennesse vsed , swearing , curssed speaking , chiding , fighting , brawling , and common contempt of the order of the church , breaking of the sabboth , wanton & vain words , vncomly gestures , negligence in hearing of preaching , or obtaining from the Lords table , when it is publikely ministred , suspicion of auarice or of pride , superfluitie or riotousnesse in cheare or raiment , &c. All these likewise do come by certaine degrees , within the compasse of their censures : all according to the word of God , you must suppose , or els you do them wrong . Vnto these may be also further added , Historie of the church of Scotland . ministers apparell , womens lasciuious , dissolute , or too sumptuous attire , either publikely or priuatly , dauncing , all games that bring losse , stage-plaies of all sorts , haunting of tauerns , or tipling houses , all inordinat liuers , and all such like matters , according to the discretion of the eldership , cuirelinquenda sunt , whervnto they are to be left . From which discretion , it proceeded ( as I take it ) that for some disorders committed in Edenburgh , The Hist. of the church of Scotland . pag. 527. about a Robin-hood , which the prouost and bailifs would haue staied , the whole multitude were holden excommunicate . But yet I haue not done with these causes . They grow vpon me , more and more . And it is no reason , that our owne brotherhood of England should be pretermitted . They ( vz. the elderships ) shall suffer no lewd customs ( saith the admonitioner ) to remaine in their parishes , Admon . 2. pa. 46. either games , or otherwise . You know their meaning . Maipoles , Ales , maigames , moricedances , all must downe . How doth Robin-hood stick in their stomacks ? Besides , all that haue liued with offence to the congregation , Adm. 2. p. 46. although they haue suffered the punishment of the law for it : yet because they offended therby both God & the church , they are within the limits of the elderships , & to be censured by them . The demonstrator is also very bountiful . The office of the church gouernors ( saith he ) is to decide controuersies in doctrine and maners , Cap. 15. so far as pertaineth to conscience , and the church censures . That is , if any shall refuse their said decision , they will not ( indeed ) whip him or hang him , ( those are ciuile punishments . ) But so farre as the church-censures will reach , haue at him . Will he run to trouble his neighbour , either to the Chancerie , to the Kings-bench , or common pleas , & may haue both conscience and iustice of his eldership at home ? Such a fellow shal pay for it . It is wisely therfore considered of the humble motioner , where he telleth the lords of her maiesties priuie counsaile , pa. 75. that the church is to censure such a partie , who is apparantly troublesome and contentious , and without reasonable cause , and vpon meere will and stomacke doth vex & molest his brother , to trouble the countrie . Apparantly troublesome , that is , apparantly to their conceits : without reasonable cause , vz. to be approued by them . And how can they know how reasonable the cause is , except they examine both the fact , and be skilfull also , what the law of the land is in such a case ? Must he bring his learned councel to their Aldermens barre , to proue his cause reasonable ? but what should I moue such a trifling question ? Well , pardon me for it , and to make you an amends , you shall heare Cartwrights opinion of these matters . T.C. l. 2. p. 68 It is this , vz. that euery fault , that tendeth either to the hurt of a mans neighbor , or to the hinderance of the glory of God , is to be examined and dealt in by the orders of the church . This brings before their consistorie of elders , all matters of right , all pleas reall and personall , and all pleas of the crowne , as I imagine .

Snecanus also saith , De discip . eccles. p. 460. Quoduis peccatum , &c. Euery sinne is here to be vnderstood both against our neigbor & against God howsoeuer it be committed by force or by fraud , by words or by deeds , purposely or ignorantly , manifestly or secretly . But yet the Demonstrator goeth further . Hitherto we haue heard nothing to purpose , but only of sinnes committed . But he will not abate you an inch of all the sins , which the scholemen do call sinnes of omission . Cap. 18. Whatsoeuer is enioined ( saith he ) as a dutie to be done by euery christian , if he leaue it vndone , he is to be compelled by the gouernors of the church to do it . It is also of a maruellous reach , that the admonitioner speaketh of , when he affirmeth , that by this their discipline euery man may be kept within the limits of his vocation . Peraduenture it wil be a harder matter then they looke for , to be able to discerne of the limits of euery mans calling . But if they will needs take so much vpon them , because they haue once said it ; then if any man , be he prince or subiect , exceed the limits of his calling , where their elderships are established : it tendeth surely to their condemnation , that may reforme him , and doe it not .

But it may be , that some wil say , we haue heard of Knox , of Danaeus , of the Demonstrator , of the admonitioners of Snecanus , of Cartwright , and we know not whom : but what sayth Beza of this matter ? we would be glad to heare him . I cannot blame you , for you shall be sure that he wil come in with one trick or other beyond his fellowes . You haue heard al the sinnes ( almost ) that are reckoned vp already , as falling within the bounds of the elderships iurisdiction . But if we shall beleeue Beza , and speake indeed properly , as he would haue vs : no sinnes ( as they are sinnes ) do belong to the elderships to be dealt in , De excom. p. 46.49 . but as they are scandala , that is , as they offend the godly consciences of Gods children . For example : I heare a man blaspheme God , or breake any other commandement of the first table ; or I heare or see him commit some sinne against the second table , vz against his neighbor , as against my self by doing me some iniurie , either in word or deed , either in my goods , or in my name , now in this , there are offred me 2 kinds of iniuries , the first & the cheefest is the greefe of conscience , that I conceiue in respect , that such a man hath broken Gods law , & therby not only wounded my hart , but giuen an ill example , which may peraduenture corrupt others . The second iniurie is , by his hurting me in my goods or fame . Now forsooth in this second respect , I may go to the ciuile magistrat , but may not come to the eldership , by any degrees , but only in the first respect , vz. because my neighbor in hurting of me hath violated the law of god , & so wounded my conscience . Neither must I complaine to the eldership , with any mind either to haue him punished , or to haue my iniuries recompensed , but only to bring him to repentance , & to seeke the good of his soule . By this deuise you may perceaue that although he seeme in words to dissent from the rest that haue written more bluntly , yet in effect he agreeth with them , or rather hath increased their pretended iurisdiction . For by this means , they may not only take vpon them to enter into euery action , but they would bind euery particular man , whosoeuer , to become an informer to their court . Besides , wheras he sayth , that in the said second respect , we may go to the ciuile magistrat , it is but a mist that he casteth before mens eies . For be it in a matter of words , that I pretend my selfe to be greeued , and so complaine to their eldership : Beza & al the rest do hold , that the partie cannot passe their fingers , vntill he haue submitted and reconciled himselfe vnto me . And in such a matter who will desire more ? For if he looke for damages in monie , he will be held cruell . And then what is left for the ciuile magistrat ? Againe , my neighbour pretending that I haue done him iniurie , either in his lands , goods , or fame , chargeth me with the particulars , which being indeed false , he saith are true , wherupon my conscience being wounded , that he should sin so horribly against God , first by lying , & then by iustifying his lie : I complaine to the consistorie . The matter is heard , I am cleared . And except he submit himselfe both to aske God and mee forgiuenesse , the censures of the church proceed against him : and so that way also he is debarred from the benefite of temporall law , in so much as he can haue no colour to begin sute againe , for that , wherein hee hath acknowledged me to haue bene by him wrongfully charged . What is here then left for the ciuile state to deale in ? Furthermore in a matter of iniurie done vnto me in my lands or goods : I pretend to that court , that such a man hath wounded my conscience , in breaking Gods commandement , by such his iniurie offered vnto me : Beza . de excom. pa. 52. well , it may be the partie will denie it , and then my proofes must be produced . If I iustifie my complaint , the offender must likewise in this case submit himselfe vnto me , and acknowledge the iniurie . If hee will not so do , the censures proceed , and so he is debarred ( as it is sayd before ) : if hee do , then on the other side , I must of necessitie , forgiue him the offence which greeued my conscience , or else I also do come within their compasse . Well , I do therefore forgiue him : and shall I neuerthelesse prosecute him in forme of law , for the iniurie done to me ? Hereunto maister Beza sayth thus : De excom. p. 57. Vix potest condonâsse iniuriam dici , qui de priuata iniuria fratrem non contentus primùm arguisse , deinde adhibitis testibus admonuisse , ad magistratus vsque tribunal illum reluctantem persequitur . He can scarsely be sayd to haue forgiuen an iniurie , who not contenting himselfe to haue first reproued his brother for his priuat iniurie , and to haue admonished him before witnesses , doth notwithstanding draw him ( against his will ) to the magistrats seat of iustice .

But be it as he confesseth afterward , that in such a case a man may go to the law , to omit that hee shall thereby incurre the high displeasure of these Rabbies , ( which he shall be sure to haue sticking vpon him vntill they can waite him as good a turne ) yet I say againe , what is left to the magistrat ? The iniurie is confessed afore . There shall need no triall of the fact , where so many witnesses may be vsed , to prooue his confession afore , if now he should denie it . All that the magistrat hath to do , is to set down what recompense I shall haue for my sayd iniurie , and to tax my charges . If you say nay , hee will heare the cause againe . Indeed I confesse he had need to do so . But so both I and the partie should be doubly charged and troubled . Besides , that course would turne to the vtter discredit of the presbyteries , that their dealings , fitting in the seat of Christ , should come to be scanned by those , that are but humane ordinations . For so some of them by colour of the Apostles words do debase magistracie . And therefore peraduenture they will thinke it meet , that vpon certificat from them , the magistrats should so prōceed to adiudge me a recompense , and to rate mine expenses without any further adoo . Some such thing it is , ( though not in this very case ) which the ministers of the low countries haue desired . Thus a very graue man borne amongst them , reporteth of this matter . A. S. Ministri nullam habent coërcendi potestatem , nec habere volunt . Tantùm cupiunt , vt magistratus puniant eos , qui ipsorum mandatis parere detrectarent . Quod nunquam sunt facturi , nisi prius de tota causa legitime recognouerint , actoribus aut accusatoribus ministris consistorij . Quod seniores & ministri alienum à suo ministerio esse similiter iudicant . In haec absurd a inciderunt , propter reiectam episcoporum authoritatem , &c. The ministers there haue no power to correct any man , neither will they haue any . Only they desire of the magistrats to punish such , as should refuse to obey their commandements , whervnto the magistrats wil neuer yeeld , except they may take notice of the whole cause againe by ordinarie course of law , the ministers of the consistories making themselues either plaintifs or accusers . Which the elders and ministers do iudge , not to be agreeable to their ministerie . And they are fallen into these absurdities ( he had also before named some other ) through their reiecting of the authoritie of bishops . You see their desire in this case , and it may ( in mine opinion ) bee stretched to the former . And then ( as I haue shewed ) through scandales , offences , consciences , and I know not what pretences , challenges , and counterfait prerogatiues , the iurisdiction of their elderships , will be so large , as the ciuile magistrats , iudges , and lawyers , shall not need to be greatly troubled .

These things , with all the premisses of this chapter considered , I dare say , you long to know by what authoritie they challenge to deale in all these so many , and so infinite causes . And to satisfie your longing , the learned discourser shall first speake his mind : pa. 87. Our sauiour Christ ( sayth he ) in the word ( church ) alludeth to the Iewes Sanedrim , which had the hearing and determining of all difficult matters amongst them : the like whereof , he willed to be established in his church , for administration of gouernment . What , you will say , but weightie matters ? How come they now , to al matters : euen to Robin-hood , maigames , and may poles ? Ye say truly , but Cartwright will supply this defect . For indeed this discourser shot many bowes too short . This was the policie and discipline of the Iewes , T.C. l. 1. p. 183. and of the sinagogue ( saith he ) from whence our sauiour tooke this and translated it vnto this church : that when any man had done any thing that they held for a fault , that then the same was punished and censured by the elders of the church . And M. Beza . Praef. ad lib. de excom. Quod ius fuit Synagogae sub lege , cur non valeat in ecclesia sub euangelio , authore Christo , Math. 18.17 . non video : I see not why the same authoritie , that the Synagogue had vnder the lawe , shoulde not continue now in the Church vnder the Gospell , according to Christs institution in the chapter mentioned .

Indeede if Christ haue ordained any such matter , it is good reason it should bee so . But because they will needs bring vs to the Iewes : let vs see what prettie tales , they will tell vs of those times .

They say , ( and it is true ) that the Priests were the Lawyers of the land . Polit. pag. 129. Beza de excom. pag. 104. And would they be so now ? If the same pollicie continue , why should they not ? They tell vs further , that in ciuill causes , when there did arise anie doubt in law amongst the Iudges , Beza de excom. pag. 104. the decision thereof did belong to the Priests iurisdiction . If that also were a good pollicie , and that it be continued by Christ : then I see no reason , why it should not againe be now established in all places . They say , that the 17. of Deuteronomie , from the beginning of the eight verse , vnto the ende of the thirteenth , doth intreat of the ecclesiasticall Senate : where it is said : T.C. l. 2. p. 17. that iudgements betweene bloud and bloud , between plea and plea , Beza de excom. pag. 104. 105. &c. did belong to the priestes , and that it was death for any man not to rest in his determination . If this pollicie be in like manner continued : who then in the common-wealth , but the ecclesiasticall Elderships ? Matters of bloud , and of all pleas ? Who would not take those points , to be more ciuil causes ? It is true . But they tell vs , that when the priests dealt in any of those causes , they dealt not in them ciuilly , ●e●a de excom. pag. 106. but ecclesiastically . It will trouble a man to find out their sleights . But one example to this purpose you shall haue .

When such a doubt did rise ( saith Beza ) Non de facto ; Beza de excom. pag. 104. Not of the facte , ( for that was meere ciuill ) but Deiure ; what the law was in such a case : then the Ecclesiasticall Eldership determined thereof : and that doone , the ciuill Iudge gaue sentence of the facte accordingly . As though there should be two Courts in Westminster hall : one for matters of fact in ciuill and criminall causes , consisting of temporall Iudges : and another ( for matters of Conscience , for all sortes of offences , and for matters of lawe ) consisting of ecclesiasticall persons , some Pastors and Doctors , assisted in solemn maner with their church Aldermen . Suppose then I pray you , that you are by chaunce in Westminster hall : such a difficult matter in lawe ( as is pretended ) commeth before the Iudges of some fact , whereupon downe they come from their seats , and go to the Elders . May it please your Maisterships , there is such a cause before vs , which seemeth to be a foule matter , if it fall out as the bill or declaration is laid : what is the law in this point ▪ The Elders consult together , & resolue them . The Iudges giue them a legge , returne to their places , the cause falleth out according to the complaint , and so they pronounce the sentence , as the Aldermen taught them . Suppose ( I say ) all these things , & then you perceiue what Bezaes distinction meaneth , & with what good discretion , both hee and his followers , will needs make two Courts of that , which was but one . It is a very great maruel , that any wise men should insist vpon these so apparant and childish fooleries . In all the Courtes ( I thinke ) in the world , since there haue beene anie : the same that were Iudges of the lawe , were Iudges likewise to trie the fact : except it be in England . And yet heere also euen in the triall of factes by twelue men , we haue not two Courts for one matter : but all the euidence , witnesses , and whatsoeuer else , that doth appertaine for the finding out of the fact , are brought before the Iudges of the law . They sift and examine euerie point and circumstance , that so the Iurie may bee fully informed : and they are indeede the chiefe directors ( as it is meete ) in the whole matter . And as it is , and hath beene in all the worlde : so it was in all the Courtes appointed , either by Moses , or by King Iehosophat in Iewrie .

It is true , that all difficulties that did rise amongst the Iudges of inferior Courts in the country , whether they were of law , or facts : and likewise , all appellations from lower Courts : did belong to the high Court at Ierusalem , to bee heard and determined . But doth that proue one Court to bee two ▪ Nay , it is most apparant , that if they will needs fetch their Elderships from the Iewes Synedria : they may challenge to themselues aswell the ciuill gouernement of the common-wealth , as the ecclesiasticall of the church . For so was the forme of gouernment then , according to the testimonies of scripture , of all the Iewes , the Rabbines , the Talmudists , Iosephus , & others . And I greatly doe suspect it , that in time they will begin to claime it : I find them so wauering and vncertaine in this matter . As yet ; fi● , they cannot abide to heare of it . But obserue them how they stagger . Beza in his booke against Erastus , whereunto hee himselfe , and seuenteene other Ministers of Geneua subscribed , and which was the booke indeed , that Erastus did confute : both he & they all of them , were in doubt of this point : An verò ciuilem aliquam cōērtionem habuerit ex iure , ecclesiasticum illuà apud Iudaeos syned●ion , definire vix possumus : habuisse tamen , posterioribus saltem temporibus , negare nec si velimus , possumus , &c. We can scarcely define , whether the ecclesiasticall Eldership amongst the Iewes , had any authoritie of right to vse ciuill punishments : that it had ( at the least in the later times , if we would denie it , we cannot .

It is very well said . And then I trust it will be confessed ; that , as long as that authoritie continued , hee had beene a fond man , that should but once haue dreamed of the former distinction of making one Court two : vz. the one of fact , and the other of law : and of dealing in ciuill causes ecclesiastically , or I know not how . Yea ( saith Beza ) but though they had such authoritie , probabile est , it is probable , that it was procured , ambitione maximorum pontificum , by the ambition of the high priests . How like you this ▪ When he is so pressed both by scriptures , and with other authoritie , that hee cannot chuse but confesse the point in question : see how substantially he would seem to auoide it , with his Theologicall demonstration , Probabile est . But that I doe the man no iniurie , hee hath an other shift of descant to helpe himselfe herein . Though they had any such authoritie , exiure , by the law ( saith he ) yet , Hoc nihil ad nos , It doth not concerne vs . Why ▪ if the same pollicie that the Iewes had , bee continued by Christ in his Church : how commeth it to passe , that this doth nothing concerne vs ▪ It is abrogated . Belike ; euen as much , and as little of the pollicie must continue , as is in force at Geneua . But who did abrogate it ▪ Christ Where ? When hee said , Reges gentium dominantur eis , vos autem non sic : The kinges of the nations beare rule ouer them , but it shall not be so with you .

They seeme to bee much beholden to this peece of scripture : it serueth them vnto so many purposes . But if they presume in this sort vpon the continuall fauour of it : certainly it will leaue them , when they least suspect it . If the Iewes Eldership , had to deale in ciuill causes , & that Christ had pu●posed to haue continued that form of gouernment in his Church , in all pointes sauing in that : he would haue said thus : The priests of the Iewes did beare rule ouer them , and had to deale in ciuill causes , but it shall not be so with you . It is to bee wondred ar ; that Beza should content himselfe , with such vnlikely , & so very improbable conceites . But it seemeth , that vpon some better aduisement with himself , and his fellowe subscribers : they grewe all of them ashamed of these shiftes . Beza de excom. pag. 106. And therefore in his booke of excommunication ( which hee lately published ) hee is become in some sort another man . Now both he , & his said felow-Ministers , are out of doubt , Ex clarissimis testimoniis , By most clear testimonies ; Pag. 109. that the authority which the priests had in ciuill causes , was gotten by bribes ; Ex licentia & iurisdictionis perturbatione ; through the libertie and confusion of those two distinctiurisdictions : which confusion , Christus nunquam approbanit ; Christ neuer approued .

Ah , very well : though they haue turned ouer an other lease ; and for Probabile est , do bragge of most cleare testimonies : yet , concerning Christs wordes , they are gone backward . For his commandement , Vos autem non sic : is now turned , as you see , into Nunquam approbauit : which carrieth with it no other force , than is ascribed to a negatiue collection . But for all their most cleare testimonies , he must haue better eyes than mine , that can discerne any thing by them , sauing their inconstancie : and that there is cause , to suspect therby ( as I said , ) that when their credites are increased , they will not greatly sticke to breake the bounds of their said distinctions , & deale as well with matters of fact , as of law . For els , besides all the premisses , what meaneth this new ground of Diuinitie , published of late in print to the worlde , from Geneua ? Ciuiles quoque lites , antequam Christiani essent magistratus ( vt verisimile est ) ex Apostolica doctrina , Thes. 83. amicè & citra vllum ferè strepitum componebantur . The ciuill contentions , before there were any Christian magistrates , were compounded , as it is likely , according to the Apostles doctrine , by the Elderships , friendly , and without any suites of law .

So as now , if this question were once determined : whether , that may bee lawful , when there is a Christian magistrate , that is lawfull to bee doone , when there is none : there should ( as you see ) bee no more suites in law for ciuill causes in the lande : their Elderships haue intituled themselues vnto them , and ingrossed them all by right , into their handes . You will say ; it is true , that they haue done so indeede , if that question were resolued : but that point standeth vppon an if . Nay , assure yourselues , it is past peraduenture : they would take it in great scorne , that such a matter should rest vndecided . Where it is held by the Churches of Heluetia , that such Elderships ( as they of Geneua talke of ) are needlesse , where there is a Christian magistrate : and thereupon the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury , for disputations sake reasoning , that if there were any such Elders then : yet it doth not followe , they should bee receiued now : Cartwright and his schollers are peremptorie , T.C. li. 1. p. 175. that the offices of those Elderships , are the rather to bee continued vnder a Christian magistrate . And the learned Discourser sayth as confidently in the like case : that the same authoritie , Pag. 118. 119. which the Church had , before there was a Christian Magistrate , doth still continue when there is one , or else ( as he addeth ) we would be glad to learne how this authoritie was translated from the Church , ( in which it was once lawfully vsed ) vnto the ciuill Magistrate . Agreeable to both which resolutions is that saying of Trauerse : That Heathen Princes being become Christians , Def. of eccles. Dis. p. 148. 174. doe receiue no further increase of their authoritie , than they had before , while they were in paganisme .

It is well : By these rules then , all is theirs . They are Kings & Princes : & the very immediate vicegerentes of Iesus Christ vppon earth . And good reason they should then haue both the swords : nay , twenty swords if there were so many . And besides , seeing they haue to deale in all causes , they must haue all lawes in the closets of their brestes : at the least authoritate ; let scientia come by Cartwrights deuise , vpon the suddaine into them how it may : at leysure .

But hereof sufficiently . Howsoeuer they crie our against our Bishoppes for intermedling with mo matters , than they are able to discharge : yet you see into what an infinite sea of affaires , they would thrust their Elderships : allowing generally that in themselues , which formerly they haue condemned in others . As by the next Chapter it will appeare more plainely vnto you .

CHAP. XXVI . Those things they reprooue as vnlawfull in others , they allow in themselues .

THere is nothing better knowne , than with what contempt and bitternesse diuers amongst vs haue written against the authoritie of Bishoppes , especially Archbishops : Archbish. and yet I perceiue , that if they might attaine to such an authoritie , it would bee well enough accepted . For thus their Maister Beza writeth . Conf. cap. 5. Artic. 21. What was ordayned in times past , concerning the appointing of prouinciall Synodes by the Metropolitane , appeareth manifestly by the olde Canons . Neither are we the men , who if the ruines of Churches were repayred , doo thinke eyther that order , or some other like vnto it , to be reiected . So as these two things bee obserued : That a tyrannie be not brought againe into the Church , as though the holy Ghost were tyed to some certaine seate or person : and that all thinges should be doone to edification , &c. Indeede , hee is already the Primate , Archbishop , or Metropolitane , in effect , of all the prouince of Geneua : or at the least , hee easily foresaw , that if anie such order should bee restored againe amongst them , hee was the onely man for that great preferment .

When this worde 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 in the sixt Canon of the Councell of Nice , is brought and vrged , to proue the authoritie , right , and iurisdiction of the Bishop of Alexandria , ouer the Churches , in diuers countries there mentioned : then it must signifie nothing , in that place : ( if wee shall beleeue Cartwright ) but onely a dignitie , or preheminence in meetings , to goe , or sit before the rest . But if you talke of the power , authoritie , and iurisdiction of their Eldershippes : then sayth Danaeus , Vox potestatis in hac disputatione significat 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Dan de potest . eccles. cap. 2. the word of power signifieth , as this Greeke worde doth properly import . And what is that ▪ Forsooth , Ius & authoritatem alicuius gubernationis illi traditae , id est , alicuius reigerendae & regendae : Right and authoritie of some gouernment giuen vnto such a power , that is of the gouernement and rule of some thing . Nowe if this worde might haue beene so happie , as to haue retained this signification in the sayde Councell of Nice , where there is speach of Bishops : Cartwright had beene put to his plunge , Beza . annot. Iohn . 1. and Bezaes annotation mentioned , would not haue helped him a rush . There is nothing more vsually obiected against the present estate , superioritie , and authoritie of Bishoppes , Vos autem non sic . than the place of Peter . Neque vt dominantes in cleris ; Not as though yee were Lordes ouer the Clergie : And that of Luke 22. 1. Pet. 5. Luke 2a . Vos autem non sic ; But you shall not be so . And it will not bee admitted in anie wise , that wee should expound those places , of ambitious affectation , of tyrannous practise , or of the abuse of such superioritie , ●or iurisdiction . But if you will speake of the right , authoritie , and iurisdiction of their Elderships ; the case is cleane altered . There are some , as it seemeth , beyond the seas , who seeing the pride of the consistorian gouernement , doe affirme ; That the power of the Church is onely spirituall , and not any external exercise , practise , and right of any authoritie , power , and gouernment . With this opposition , so much derogating from the dignitie of their Elderships , Danaeus is mooued ; and answering that conceit , sayth : that although the power of the Church , Dan. de potest . eccles. cap 3. ad animarum salutem sit comparata ; be instituted for the health of soules : yet notwithstanding , it hath necessarily annexed vnto it , an indissoluble band , an externall exercise , practise , and vse , iuris & gubernationis , of lawe and gouernment . Against this aunswere , replye ( as it seemeth ) is made with the same places mentioned , that are vrged against our Bishops . Whervpon Danaeus , to make all thinges cleare , addeth these wordes to his former aunswere , and publisheth the same from Geneua . Ibidem . Nam quod &c. Whereas it may bee obiected out of Peter : Non dominantes , &c. Not bearing rule , &c. And out of Luke : Vos autem non sic : but you shall not be so : Facilè soluitur : it is easily aunswered . Damnatur enim partim abusus , non vsus illius potestatis , partim illius cum ciuili confusio : for partly the abuse is condemned , not the vse of that power , and partly the confusion of it with the ciuill power . Which is the verie aunswere that wee doe make and approoue , beeing extorted from them by Gods good prouidence ; for the stopping of our mens mouthes , who vppon pretence of those places , haue opened them so wide against the lawfull authoritie of our Bishops .

It hath beene greatly grudged-at by these reformers , New parliam . men . that Bishoppes are allowed to bee of the vpper house of Parliament : and saine they would haue them out , if they knew how : Notwithstanding , for ought I can finde , they haue enioyed that honourable prerogatiue , euer since there was an high Court of Parliament in England . And still the worde of God is made the pretence for whatsoeuer they desire : so as euer you vnderstand that they themselues are excepted . Whereof it commeth , that the very same proiect is made to the Lordes of her Maiesties most honourable Councell , which was deuised by Beza for Scotland , vz. that in place of the Bishops , Humble motio . pag. 52. there might be present in the parliament house some wise and graue Ministers of especiall gifts & learning , Beza de tripl . episc . sorted out of all the land : to yeld their Councell , according to Gods heauenly lawe , euen as the ciuill Iudges are readie to giue their aduise according to the temporall law , and for matters of greater difficultie . But would they sitte there as the Iudges doe , and haue no voices ▪ I take it , they would scorne that greatly . For I nothing doubt , but if they were there , they would account themselues the wisest in the companie . And therefore , it was more substantially considered of by him , who penned a Supplication to her Maiestie , and wished , That foure and twentie Doctors of Diuinitie , Found amongst Fields bookes . ( to be called by such names as it should please hir highnes ) might be admitted into the Parliament house , and haue their voyces there in steade of the Bishops . And would they bee called Lords , if it pleased her Maiestie for the honour of that house to appoynt it so ? Their wordes doe import so much : and I make no doubt of it , but that to gratifie her highnesse , they would bee content to humble themselues so farre .

In the hope which they haue conceiued , to ouerthrow the state of Bishoppes , Conuocation . and to haue their deuise allowed of , and established in the lande : they inueigh most bitterly against the Bishoppes , and the Conuocation house , misliking that the dealing in ecclesiasticall causes , should bee committed vnto them , in sorte as now it is : affirming , that the liberties of the Parliament , are th●reby betrayed : and that it appertaineth to that Court , to order matters of religion . But what if the Bishops were excluded , and none admitted into the Conuocation house , but such as they woulde chuse from amongst themselues : how then ? Indeed ( saith the Supplicator ) If the Conuocation house were such as it ought to bee , Suppl pag. 45. &c. then were it not lawfull for the Parliament to establish any thing , in the matters appertaining to the pure worship of God , but by theyr direction . Which is this in effect , Admon . 2. p. 57 ( if I vnderstand them : ) that the Parliament should prouyde theyr new pretended gouernours , of sufficient maintenance , and set vp theyr Eldershippes ; and then enact it likewise : that whatsoeuer they should ordaine in their assemblies and meetings , for the time to come concerning Church causes : should be in full strength , and for euer obeyed , vntill it might please them to make some alteration . Which is the point that Knox aymed at , Exhort . to Engl. pag. 91. &c. in his Exhortation to England : wherein for the good instruction of her Maiesties subiectes , he sendeth them from Geneua , these Allobrogicall rules : That the pretended discipline ought to bee set vp : that all Princes ought to submit themselues vnder the yoke of it : that what Prince , King , or Emperour shall disanull the same , he is to be reputed Gods enemie , and to be helde vnworthie to raigne aboue his people : and then sayth , if such order were once established , as there he prosecuteth , and the discipline well executed accordingly : Ibid pag. 99. theyr yearely comming to the Parliament , for matters of religion , shall bee superfluous and vayne . And this also is playne , by Cartwrights newe forme of discipline , subscribed vnto by himselfe , and his fellowes . Which forme they haue auowed vppon theyr oathes to bee such , as that they purposed to haue beene suitors to her Maiestie , for the generall establishing of it . In which their purpose , if once they may preuayle : there shall neuer Parliament bee troubled againe in matters of religion : otherwise then ( as I sayde ) for making of lawes , that the people may obey their orders . For the whole gouernement is there ascribed vnto their Elderships , & other assemblies ; insomuch , as the ciuill Magistrate is not once mentioned in it .

It is well knowne how vehement they haue been , A Councellor . and still continue , against the now Lord Archbishop of Canterbury , in that he is one of her Maiesties most honourable priuie Councell , accounting it vnlawful , for a Bishop or Minister of the worde , to holde anie such roome and authoritie . And yet notwithstanding , it is greatly allowed of , & liked : that Beza in Geneua , should be one of the Councel of that state there , one of the threescore : and they admit not anie into theyr Consistory , so much as the meanest of their Aldermen ; but hee must bee eyther a Syndicke , or one of the Councell of threescore , or one of the Councell of two hundreth . Now I cannot possibly be brought to thinke , that the worde of God should deale so partially : but that it may bee as lawfull heere , as there , if it please her Maiestie , to haue a Bishop to bee one of her most honourable Councell .

It is apparant in the former Chapiter , Their Synods must bind . what little account they make of generall Councels . The best are censured by them , and reprooued . It is not well borne by Cartwright , that the Councell of Nice should be tearmed a famous Councell . And for other Councels , or Synodes ; they are scarcely reckoned to bee worthie the mentioning . If you presse one of that forte , with the authoritie of them all ; though hee be not thirty yeares of age , hee will not sticke to make a tush at them : and tell you , that himselfe is of another opinion . No decrees made by them , will bind these fellowes . And as touching our owne nationall Synodes and Parliaments : they are prosecuted with the greatest contempt . The reformation of religion made by that authoritie : is tearmed a deformation . The articles of religion , are misliked in diuers points . The Iniunctions , Aduertisements ; Canons , Orders , Ceremonies , and all thinges in a manner , are despised by them . For they are but mens preceptes ( forsooth : ) euery man must trie them , and keepe or allowe what he list ; at the least , if hee will but pretend , that hee dooth it of conscience . Howbeit , if they may haue once authoritie to establish their Elderships , and to meete together in theyr classicall , prouinciall , or nationall assemblies , there to make such lawes and orders , as they shall thinke good : then see ( I praye you ) how they chaunge theyr song . Gelibrand to Field . Touching my departure from that holy assembly without leaue , &c. Icraue pardon . Holy assembly . It was a Conuenticle in London , about the yeare 1584. Fen. to Field . I am ready to runne , if the Church commaund , according to the holy decrees , and orders of discipline . Holy decrees and orders . The matter was , for his going into the Lowe Countries with the Earle of Leicester , and for his absence from his benefice . Admon . 2. pa. 31 To the determination of a nationall Synode , men shall stande as it was at Ierusalem , except it bee in a great matter of fayth ; or a great matter expressely against the Scriptures . It was agreede vppon in the Northampton classis , Iohnson & Littletonsworne . that concerning any matters of doctrine , or about the sense of any place of Scriptures , the brethren within that compasse , must stande to the determination of that cl●ssis . And these are the orders , to this poynte , in the newly subscribed booke of discipline . Plurium sententiae verbo Dei consentaneae , singulares omnes eius cansilij , & conuentus ecclesiae parere debent . All Churches must obey the sentence of the greater part of that Councellor assembly , vnder whose direction they are , the same being agreeable to the worde of God . And agayne : It is made a part of theyr Aldermens office to see : Vt quae à conuentibus piè decreta retulerint , à ciuibus suis earum ecclesiarum studiosè obseruentur : that those godly decrees which they shall bring from the assemblyes , bee diligently obserued of theyr Cittizens of those Churches . Lastly : Conuentus sententia rata habeatur , donec à conuentu maior is authoritatis secus iudicatum puerit . Let the sentence of euery assembly bee ratified , vntill it shall be otherwise iudged-of by an assembly of greater authoritie : As a classicall , to bee ouerruled by a prouinciall ; a prouinciall , by a nationall ; a nationall , by a generall . And thus they write of theyr owne orders and assemblyes . Which rules , take them altogether as they lye , if they bee true : ( as I doe not greatly dislike them being well applyed ) then do these busie bodies among vs , sin most directly against theyr own consciences : in that they oppose themselues , ( as they do ) against those things which the greater part of the national Sinode , & high court of parliament of this Realme , hath allowed of : beeing most agreeable to the worde of God , before some generall Councell , or assembly of more authoritie , haue iudged otherwise , and determined , for the course that they haue proceeded in . Generall Councell I am sure they haue none . And for any other assembly , that hath beene held , and should haue greater authoritie in England , than the nationall Synode of all our owne Churches , and the high Court of Parliament ; let them name it .

In their writinges generally , they exclayme against the high Commission , Commission . or at the least , against the Commissioners ; as many of them as bee clergie men : affirming it to bee against the worde of God , that any such should bee of that Commission . Acts of secret Counceil printed 1590. And yet in Scotland , it was agreeable with the Scriptures , that fortie or fiftie at the least , Ministers of the worde , ( as I conceyue it ) shoulde bee verie great Commissioners from the King , Anno 1589. to very manie great purposes : euen for the purging of that lande from all sortes of enemies , to the religion there professed . Likewise , earnest suite is made , in the Supplication before mentioned , Suppl . to her Maiestie . to her Maiestie , and found in Fields study : that the foresaid foure & twentie Doctors , that should bee of the Parliament house , might be likewise generall Commissioners vnder the great scale of England ( or the more part of them ) to beare and determine , all and euery secte , errour , heresie , contempt , default , and misdemeanour , agaynst the worde of God , and her Maiesties lawes of reformation of religion : to depriue any Pastour , not dooing or neglecting his duetie : to examine witnesses , and to imprison the bodyes of all such malefactors , and to certifie their names to the Lordes of her Maiesties Councell , that they may receiue further condigne punishment . Besides , there bee some that resemble the high Commission , nowe in force ; vnto the authoritie which they challenge to theyr seuerall Elderships . Whereupon one of them , acquainted , ( I doubt not ) with the desires of the rest , Petition to her Maicst . pag. 13. sayth : That if the high Commission were setled in fiue hundred places more than it is : and shoulde gouerne by the worde of God , and lawes of this Realme ; there would rise more profit thereby to religion , than yet hath beene found by the Bishops . He would haue it in fiue hundreth places . Scotland is diuided into two and fiftie Eldershippes : and of likelyhood they would haue fiue hundred in England . And that , as I take it , is the mystery of his number of fiue hundred . To conclude , I finde another motion , which liketh wel , that if there were fiue hundred Elderships more or fewer established , yet there might be in euery great Towne , Humb motion pag. 62. certaine Commissioners in causes ecclesiasticall appoynted : to looke that the Elderships did their dueties , & if they did not , to compel them therunto by ciuill authority . So as therby it appeareth , that although our Bishops , & other Clergie men may not be such Commissioners with vs in some few places : yet their Pastors , Doctors , & Aldermen , may , in euery parish , or so many of them , ( or I knowe not whom ) as it should please her Maiestie , to assigne to euery greate Towne . Surely the worde of God is much troubled with such kinde of choppers and chaungers of it ; euery giddy heade wresting and wringing it , to serue his owne deuise . Wee shoulde haue Commissions to thatch houses withall ( I see : ) if they might be our directors .

They are offended with the authoritie that her Maiestie dooth giue vnto her Commissioners , Purseuants . for causes ecclesiasticall , as beeing vnlawfull , in that by vertue of that commission , they may sende sometimes for offendors to appeare before them , by purseuants ; and commit them to prison , as occasion shal fall out , and theyr faultes , misdemeanors , and contempts shall require . But at Geneua , the like authoritie ( in effecte ) is lawfull in their Eldership . Lawes of Geneua . fol. 15. For there the Consistorie hath a Beadle , sergeant , or purseuant , or as you lift to tearme him , appoynted by the ciuill Magistrates to attende vppon it : whose office is , to call such before the Consistorie , as the Aldermen shall appoynt him . And for imprisoning of any offendors , and contemptuous persons ; there is notany matter almost , for the which they may call a man before them : but one parte of the punishment of it , by the lawes of the Cittie , is imprisonment . As if any when hee appeareth in the Consistorie , or els where , be so hardie as but to speake euill of any of the Ministers , Lawes of Geneua . fol. 71. or misname them , he is to be imprisoned . Besides , as I haue noted it before ; theyr Elders are alwayes of the Councell of state : and seldome or neuer , but they will bee sure to haue one of the foure Syndickes , to bee of that bench . So as together , they raigne lyke Lordes in theyr Consistorie : and who dare say ; My Lordes , why doe you so ? If they direct : imprisonment , is but a small matter . I speake not agaynst that order there : let them vse it as they thinke good . Only I see not , why the worde of God should bee so bountifull to them , and is so sparing to vs .

In that by the orders of our Church , Subscription . and the laws of the Realme , there is required of Ministers , a subscription to her Maiesties lawfull authoritie in ecclesiasticall causes ; to the Articles of Religion , and to the Communion booke , &c. greate quarrels haue beene raysed , and many exceptions are taken against it . Humb. motion . Insomuch as one , ( a wise man I warraunt you ) dooth ascribe all the daungers that haue beene complotted against her Maiesties person by the traitrous Papistes : the dearth of corne : the cause that we haue had such watching and warding by souldiers : and lastly , that the Spanyards would haue inuaded this land ; all these thinges are ascribed ( I say ) by him , vnto the exacting of the sayde subscription . Howbeit , yet Cartwright and his confederates , could take vppon them , in a seditious sort , to require a secrete subscription amongst theyr fauourers ; vnto such a forme of newe Church gouernement , as hee with the rest of that crue , after many meetinges and alterations , had deuised . Wherein if theyr fancies might once take place , subscriptions would not seeme so daintie as now they doe . For there is subscription required vpon subscription . No man is to bee chosen vnto anie ecclesiasticall office with them : Nisi qui disciplinae subscripserit ; except he haue subscribed to theyr discipline : Whosoeuer is to bee of any of their assemblyes , eyther classicall , prouinciall , or nationall , hee must first haue subscribed to their discipline . And not thus content , it is there also further ordred ; that none shal be admitted to the holy Communion , except they submit themselues vnto theyr discipline . So as heereby , euery temporall man ; of what calling soeuer , is brought vnder theyr subiection . Of likelyhood they thinke , that no man can be a worthy receiuer of that holy Sacrament : that is not well perswaded of their counterfait platform . At Geneua , whosoeuer is to be admitted into their schoole ; he must first subscribe to theyr discipline . Lawes of the Vniuērsitie . And not that onely , but he is tyed to make a publike confession of that fayth , wherein theyr forme of discipline is comprised for an Articlē . And the like confession is also requyred , of all them that will receyue the Communion there . Beza in vita Calu. But what talke I of subscriptions , or professions ? Maister Caluin , when that discipline was first set vp , procured a generall oath to bee taken throughout the Cittie , for the approbation of it . Whosoeuer also is made Minister there : Lawes of Geneua . fol. 3. he sweareth to keepe theyr ecclesiasticall ordinances ; and consequently , the discipline there practised . All theyr Elders in like maner , thogh one of them be one of the Syndicks , doe take an oath to the same effect : Ibid. fol. 9. when they sweare , to perfourme theyr office faythfully , and to bring all thinges to the Consistorie , which are worthie to bee brought before it . As if the soueraigne heere , should take an oath , to bee a promoter . But that which is moste of all : they haue preuayled so much with the Magistrates , ( and there is good cause why ) that it is made death , for any man , to lette , or stoppe , Ibid. fol. 81. or cause to hinder , the worde and seruice of God , and his holy Gospell . Within which compasse , you maye bee sure , theyr discipline is comprehended . Our men as yet , talke in their platforme , but of subscriptions : but if once they had gotten so much , then forward must the rest , or els they would bee angry . How carelesly subscription is exacted in England , I am ashamed to report . Such is the retchlesnes of many of our Bishoppes , on the one side : and theyr desire to bee at ease and quietnes , to thinke vppon their owne affayres : and on the otherside , such is the obstinacie and intollerable pride of that factious sorte : as that betwixt both sides , eyther subscription is not at all required : or if it be , the Bishops admit them so to quallifie it , that it were better to bee omitted altogether . If the best , and the learnedst man in Christendome , were in Geneua , and shoulde oppose himselfe to any thing that the Church there holdeth : if hee escaped with his life , he might thanke God : but hee shoulde bee sure , not to continue as a Minister there . There is no Church established in Christendome , so remisse in this point , as the Church of England . For in effecte : euery man vseth , and refuseth what hee lifteth . Some few of late haue beene restrained , who had almost raysed the lande into an open sedition . But else , they followe theyr owne fancies : and may not bee dealt withall ( forsooth ) for feare of disquietnes . No man shall euer perswade mee , but that the worde of God , dooth giue as free libertie to the Church of England , for the repressing of such scismaticks ; as eyther to Geneua , or to any other Church whatsoeuer .

There is a kind of oath , The oath ex● officio . tearmed an oath ministred Ex officio : which is , and alwayes hath beene ministred in certayne causes , in euery Court almost , within the Realme : but especially , in the chiefest . This kinde of oath , beeing ministred also by her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical , for these foar and thyrtie yeares : is now especially greatly impugned , and many exceptions are taken agaynst it . As , a man maye not bee driuen , to confesse any thing against himselfe , nor his godly brethren : what you will charge vs with , proue it . You may not admit an accusation against an Elder , vnder two or three witnesses . If you haue witnesses , why aske you vs ? And many such like obiections are made , & maintained . Howbeit this opposition is altogether without consideration , and by them , that knowe not what they do . For at Geneua , this manner of oath is currant . And I am sure , the brotherhood heere would bee verie loth , to oppose themselues against any point of doctrine , that is allowed of there .

It fortuned vppon a time , that certayne persons meeting together , at one widdow Balthasars house in Geneua to be merrie , did there daunce . Maister Caluin hearing of this horrible sinne ( forsooth ) procured them all , both dauncers and beholders , to bee called before him and his Elders , in the Consistorie . When they appeared ; Caluin tooke vppon him to examine them , and vsed ( as hee tearmeth them ) certaine holy obtestations , that they should tell him truely , whether there were any such dauncing or no , where it was , and who daunced , &c. They denied the matter wholy : which he expresseth Apostlelike in these words : Impudenter nobis & Deo mentiti sunt : Cal. Farello . epist. 71. They lyed impudently to God and vs : Excandui , I grewe pale with anger ( saith hee ) and inueighed eagerly against such theyr contempt of God . But they continued in theyr contumacie . Whereupon Caluin , ( the matter , as hee sayth , being certainely knowne vnto him , ) protested before God ; Poenas . tantae perfidiae daturos , That they should bee punished for such theyr falshood . And because hee could not otherwise get the truth from them : Ibidem . Censui vt iureiurando ad veri confessionem adigerentur : I iudged it meete ( sayth hee ) that by oath they should bee compelled to confesse the truth . It should seeme , they made the like exceptions , that our contumacious fellows do make . And , one Henriche , a Minister ( as it seemeth ) who ( as I take it ) daunced not , but did in some sorte by waye of supposition , ( if any such dauncing had been ) take vppon him to defende it , as not beeing a matter to keepe such a stirre about : alleadged the verie same place that Cartwright did in the Consistorie at Paules , and the which all the rest of that brotherhood doe commonly alleadge : Ibidem . vz. Against an Elder receiue no accusation , but vnder two or three witnesses . But how was this allegation liked of ? Surely it was laughed at , & tearmed by Caluin , Altercatio non illepida : a pleasant ieast . It seemeth also , that besides the threatning speeches mentioned , there were other vsed in like manner , which did more terrifie them . For ( saith Caluin : ) Tandem adieci , &c. Ibidem . At the length I added further , that they must build themselues another Cittie , and liue therein by themselues , except they would bee contayned heere , vnder the yoake of Christ , ( hee meaneth theyr Consistorie ) and that as long as they liued in Geneua , they did striue , but in vaine , not to obey the lawes there . Well , by what meanes they were drawne vnto their oath , I will not stand vpon it : but sworne they were , and so confessed all . Whereupon , Omnes in carcerem coniecti ; They were all cast into prison .

Amongst the sayd dauncers , Ibidem . besides the said Henriche , ( who was depriued of his Ministerie , and committed to prison for three dayes ) there was in that company , one of the foure Syndickes , or chiefe Magistrates of the Cittie : and hee was remooued from his office , vntill hee had giuen some testimonie of his repentance : which vppon the admonition of the said Consistorie , hee presently did ( as it seemeth ) and so escaped prison . There was also an other in that meeting , named Perrin , the Captaine of the Cittie ( as I take it ) a man with whome Caluin had many quarrels . Hee ( as it seenieth ) perceiuing by Caluins eagernes , what would fall out about that sporte , got himselfe to Lyons , hoping before his returne , Rem tacitè sepultam iri : That the matter would bee deade and buryed . But sayth Caluin of him after his returne : Quicquid agat , Ibidem . poenam non effugiet : Doe what he can , hee shall not escape vnpunished . In this Perrins absence , his wife Francisca , hearing ( as I suppose ) that Caluin shold vtter some harde and angry wordes agaynst her husband , rayled both against him , and the rest of the Consistoriall associates . But Caluin aunswered her , Vt merebatur , as shee deserued . And this was the ende of that inquisition . Perrin with his wife were committed to prison , as the rest of his fellowes had been : hee for dauncing ; and shee ( I thinke ) for rayling . Whereof Maister Caluin wrote thus to his friend : Perrinus cum vxore fremit in carcere : Ibidem . Vidua prorsus insanit : alij pudore confusi silent : Perrin with his wife dooth frette in prison : the widdowe Balthasar is quite madde : other beeing ashamed , doe holde theyr peace . Heere was good Consistorian and round dealing . It should appeare , that Caluin tooke as much vppon him , as some Bishoppes or Commissioners in England doe . But why shoulde I stande so long vppon this example ▪ It maye bee sayde , wee must not lyue by examples . And it is true . Heare therefore for the conclusion of this poynte , a Canon of the reformed Churches in Fraunce . French dis. cap. of the consist . The faythfull may bee constrayned by the Consistorie , to say the truth , so farre foorth as it derogateth nothing from the authoritie of the Magistrate . Constrayned ? this may reach farre . But the worde of God alloweth them there ( it should seeme ) what they lift . In my opinion , if such maner of proceeding be lawfull at Geneua , and in Fraunce ; it may in some sorte be tolerated in England .

It is a thing too manifest , Thinges vsed in Popery . with what libelling and rayling , the forme of our seruice , of our ceremonies , of our ornamentes , of our apparrell , &c. hath beene depraued , and shamefully slaundered . Adm. 2. T.C. As , That our Communion booke was culled out of the Popes Portuise : this was abused in Poperie : that is papisticall : it were better to conforme our selues in outward thinges to the Turkes , than to the Papistes . These and those thinges were deuised by the Pope , that Antichristian beast ▪ Whatsoeuer commeth from the Pope , which is Antichrist , commeth first from the deuill . If of the egges of a Cockatrice , can be made wholsome meate to feede with : or of a spyders webbe , any cloth to couer withall : then maye also the thinges that come from the Pope , and the Deuill , bee good , profitable , and necessarie vnto the Church . Against these , and many such lyke speeches , aunswere hath beene made : that it is lawfull to trie all things , and to holde that which is good . That these thinges which are good , were not so defiled by theyr beeing in the Popes portuise : but that they might bee taken thence , and vsed . That we must distinguish betwixt the abuse of a thing , and the lawfull vse of it . That it is no good reason : the Papists abused this , therefore wee maye not vse it . That , as good men sometimes deuise that which is euill ; so euill men may sometimes deuise that which is profitable , &c. But all these aunsweres , and a number more besides , to the same effect : are misliked , denyed , and condemned by these our factioners .

Howbeit , vppon occasion the streame is turned , and they themselues are driuen to make the verie same aunsweres , for the iustifiyng of their owne proceedinges , and for the maintenance of certaine particular matters , which they doe vrge and allowe of . It hath beene layde to their charge , that for all theyr goodly pretences of reformation : yet indeede the cour●e they helde , did smell most rankly of Anabaptisme , Donatisme , and of a newe kinde of Papisme : As , where t●ey disquiet the peace of the Churches already reformed : rayle vppon our Ministers , and theyr calling : affirme , that our Sacramentes are not sincerely ministred : that there is no Church as it should bee , but those that they like of : that our ceremonies and orders , are all vnlawfull : that we haue no lawfull Ministers , nor Bishoppes : that Princes may not deale in causes ecclesiasticall , &c. These , and manye such like poyntes beeing layde to theyr charge : Cartwright ( as though hee had neuer dreamed of any thing to the contrary ) frameth this generall aunswere in the name of all his fraternitie . If amongst the filth of their heresies , T.C. lib. 2. in the epist. ( vz. of Papistes , Anabaptistes , and Donatistes ) there may bee found any good thing ( as it were a grayne of good corne , in a great deale of darnell ) that wee willingly receyue ▪ not as theyrs , but as the Iewes did the holy Arke from the Philistines , whereof they were vniust owners . For heerein it is true that is said : The sheepe must not laye downe her fell ; because shee seeth the Wolfe sometyme cloathed with it . Yea , it maye come to passe , that the Synagogue of Sathan maye haue some one thing at some time with more conuenience , than the true and Catholicke Church of Christ . Such was the ceremonie of powring water once onelye vppon the childe in Baptisme vsed with vs , and in the moste reformed Churches , which in some age was vsed by those of the Eunomian heresie . Hitherto Cartwright . Whose aunswere if it bee true , dooth concurre with ours , and may stay his owne , and his fellowes gyddinesse heereafter .

Cartwright was purposed once , The degree of Doctor . to haue been Doctor of Diuinitie . And thereof hee writeth in this sorte . I had the aduise of more than a doozen learned Ministers , T.C. lib. 2. in the epist. who considering that I had the office of a Doctor in the Vniuersitie , were of opinion , that ( for the good they esteemed might bee doone thereby ) I might swallowe the fonde and idle ceremonies , which accompany it . To the request of which friendes I yeelded . But when his Grace came to bee propounded to the Vniuersitie , that degree was denyed him . Which ( I suppose ) to be the cause , why euer since , both hee , and Trauerse his scholler , haue written so scornefully of that degree : excepte a man maye gesse , that they haue an eye therein to Geneua : where , there beeing but as it were a Grammer schoole ( in comparison of our Vniuersities ) no suche kinde of order can well bee vsed , and therefore it is contemned , reprooued , and laughed at ( in effecte ) amongst them : as it maye appeare by Bezaes wordes , in his pittifull booke against M. Doctor Sarauia .

The like course against Vniuersitie degrees , was helde by the Anabaptistes , long since in Germanye : and was mightily encountred by that woorthy learned man , P. Melancthon . Barrowe also , with his retinue at this time , doe holde the same positions in England . And , as it seemeth , that Anabaptisticall humour , is not yet repressed in the skirts of Fraunce . Whereupon Franciscus Iunius hath written a booke ; Iunij . Acad. intituled his Academia : of purpose , to confute suche fantasticall persons . In the Epistle whereof , after he hath discouered the fooleries of the Anabaptists : he commeth to the other sorte : ( I thinke hee meaneth Beza , and suche lyke , ) whome hee honoureth with greate tytles of grauitie , learning : authoritie , and iudgemente . These men ( sayth hee ) with two weapons doo seeme to wound to death , the lawes of our Vniuersities : vz. with reasons , and with examples . The examples he answereth : and I will not further deale with them , otherwise than by referring you to the sayde Epistle . But the reasons and his aunsweres , are the poyntes I ayme at . Theyr reasons he setteth downe in these wordes : ( a man might thinke hee had reade Cartwrightes wordes before mentioned : ) Quia plurima sunt ( inquiunt ) superflua & puerilia : abusus multi : omnia profecta à Pontificijs : Because manye thinges ( they saye ) are superfluous and childishe : there are manye abuses : all suche orders and ceremonyes , came from the Pope .

Touching the first reason , hee sheweth suche orders and ceremonies as they vse , are neyther Reipsa , aut significatione ; In theyr nature , or in theyr signification : eyther superfluous , or childish ; and so not such at all as is obiected : and that they are vsed , sine superstitione & iniuria vlla , Without superstition , or any iniury : and so proceedeth to other arguments for them .

To the second reason , his aunswere is in effecte : that hee supposeth no man of learning will say , that The vse of a lawfull thing is to bee abrogated , Propter indignum illius vsum , For the vnlawfull vse of it .

And to the last reason , that suche orders came from the Bishoppes of Rome , hee aunswereth : Esto sanè &c. Bee it so ; that I may graunt them so much . But whatsoeuer good , honest , or orderly thyng , wee haue receyued of the Popes , or Papistes , must wee reiect it , because it came from them ? Nay rather ; Whatsoeuer good , honest , and orderly thing they haue , lette vs haue it common with them , if they will suffer vs : if they will not suffer vs , at the least lette vs retayne it as well as they , for the publike good . Wee ( hee speaketh of himselfe I thinke , and of the learned men about Heidelberge , and New-stade ) if there bee any thing good amongst the Papistes : if they haue deuised anie good and profitable thing : God forbid that wee shoulde bee carried away with suche a madde hatred of Papistes , as that wee should refuse it . Heere then you haue the iudgement ( as it seemeth ) of those reformed Churches , eyther of them both excelling Geneua . For one of them , Geneua is but a hamlet vnto it . Which iudgemente beeing ioined to Cartwrightes wordes , dooth aunswere for all those thinges before mentioned , that our lauish fraternitie doe still taunt at so bitterly .

There is nothing more vsually obiected agaynst the preheminence , The name of a Bisho● which our Bishoppes haue ouer other Ministers , than that in the Scriptures the name of Bishop , is likewise giuen to euery Minister of the worde . Whereupon they inferre with all confidencie , as though it were impossible to bee otherwise , that because the name was then common , therefore theyr functions differed not , but were likewise all one . Heereunto , I knowe not how oft , they haue beene aunswered : that the communitie of names in the Scriptures , dooth not take away the distinction of offices . Princes are called Deacons : Apostles , are tearmed Priests , or Elders : and yet therby it may not be gathered , that there was no difference betweene the office of euery Deacon , and of Princes : between the office of the Apostles , and euery Priest , or Minister of the worde . And so wee saye of Bishoppes : that although the name of Bishoppes bee giuen in the Scriptures to other inferiour Ministers likewise : yet doth it not followe , that betweene the office of a Bishoppe , and of a Priest or Minister , there is , and should bee no difference . But all this , & much more to this purpose , will not serue our turnes : and yet with Beza to another purpose , it is a maruellous sufficient answere .

Erastus goeth about to prooue , that the name of Elder , when it is taken in the newe Testament for an ecclesiasticall office : dooth euer signifie a Minister of the worde , and not anye of theyr counterfayte and vnpriestly Aldermen . And one of his reasons is this : Because in the newe Testament , the names of Bishoppe , and of Elder , are common : as if a man shoulde saye : hee that was a Bishoppe , was called an Elder ; and hee that was an Elder , was called a Bishop : therefore theyr offices were all one : and so consequently ; euerie Bishoppe beeing a Minister of the worde , euery Elder must needes bee a Minister of the word . Heereunto Beza maketh this aunswere : which if we rise not alwayes vppon our lefte sides , might bee of as greate force in our mouthes , Beaa de excom. pag. 11● . as in Bezaes . Sciendum est , &c. It is to bee obserued , that there is scarsely anie name , whereby anye ecclesiasticall office is signified , that is not sometimes taken generally lykewise . Heereof it commeth , that the name of Apostles is attributed also to them , who by a more proper name were called Euangelistes : Saint Paule dooth call his Apostleship a Deaconship : And Peter calleth himselfe a Priest : and Luke calleth those , Priestes , who are afterward called of Paule by a more generall name , Bishoppes : Quitamen & reipsa & ijsdem specialiter acceptis nominibus , distincta esse illorum munera , nemo dubitare possit : Whereas yet notwithstanding , both in deede or in nature , the same names beeing taken specially , no man can doubt , but that the offices of Apostles , of Euangelistes , of Deacons , of Bishoppes , and of Priestes are distincte . See what respecte of persons there is amongst our pretended reformers . I am perswaded , there is not one of them that will presume to encounter with this aunswere of Bezaes : and yet when other men , as learned as euer hee was , or will bee , made the same in effecte , it was accounted by some of them , not to bee woorth a strawe .

Hee that hath reade Martins libelles , A new Ministerie . the Demonstration , and certayne bookes of Penryes , maye see what a reuell they keepe with Archbishops , and Bishoppes , grounding themselues vppon one of Cartwrightes principles : T.C. l. 2. p. 439. That any increase of authoritie , being added to a Church-Minister , dooth cleane chaunge his Ministerie , and maketh it a new Ministerie . Whervpon they conclude , that Archbishoppes , and Bishoppes , hauing receyued an increase of theyr authorities , by diuerse Councelles , &c. are become to bee of a newe Ministerie , neuer ordayned by Christ , nor his Apostles : and so consequently , vnlawfull , and to bee abolished . The follie of this collection hath beene shewed manie wayes ; both by reasons , and by examples : but yet they haue not beene satisfied . But nowe you shall see they are put to silence for euer . For Beza is peremptorie to the contrarie of that , which they haue so inforced . In his booke agaynst Doctor Sarauia , speaking of a place of Ieromes , Pag. 152. how Bishoppes were ordayned for orders sake , &c. hee sayth in effecte : That when they had such authoritie giuen then for orders sake ; Mutatio non suit in re ipsa : id'est , in ipso ordine , sed tantùm in ordinis modo : There was no chaunge made in the thinge it selfe , that is , in the order : but in the manner or measure of the order . And afterwards more plainely , where hee setteth downe another manner of principle than Cartwrightes : Pag. 153. vz. That wee must distinguish betweene the nature of a thing , and that which adhereth vnto it accidentally ; because , Eo in aliud commutato , vel sublato , res ipsa permanet ; The accident beeing chaunged , or taken away , the thing it selfe remaineth . Whereupon ( if I vnderstande him ) he groweth to this issue : Pag. 141.152 . That the increase of any such authority ( as is before mentioned ) or the alteration of the manner or order , is not of the essence of the Ministery , but a thing that is accidentall , and may be chaunged according to the circumstaunces of times and places . And hee bringeth this example . Pag. 153. Accidentale fuit , &c. It was accidentall , &c. Vt vnusquispiam iudicio caeierorum compresbyterorum delectus , presbyterio 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 esset , & permaneret : That one beeing chosen by the iudgement of the rest of his fellow-priests , or Elders , should be the President , or the Prelate ouer the presbytery , and so continue .

You will aske mee perhaps , how this geare comes about : Beza . that Beza is so opposite , to Cartwright . I will tell you my conceit . I suppose that matters of their pretended Discipline are growen to greater ripenes in Geneua , then they are ( thankes be to God ) in England : and that therfore Beza is more franke , to let vs see what they generallie shoote at ; then Cartwright dare bee as yet . For howsoeuer Cartwright presumed to tell vs ( as it seemeth vntrulie ) that , T. C. lib. 2. pag. 31. ● their moderator forsooth should be chosen , but for one action only : and that Caluin being chosen to that office for two yeares ( & so as I take it from two yeares to two yeares ) misliked , that small preheminence should so long remayne with one , which in time might breede inconuenience : and that Beza also misliked it for that cause : Yet now you see that Beza is far from that base conceit , & thinketh that , that office , maie bee permanent : and further saith ; Beza con . Sar. pag 143. that to ordaine it so now , certè reprehendi nec potest , nec debet , it neyther can nor ought surely to bee reprehended . And his reason is this , for that it hath beene an order , that one should bee so chosen , to haue such a permanent preheminece in the Church euer since Saint Markes time . Beza con . Sar. pag. 116. Nay , he is come to this : that he is content to yeald in effect , that the institution of an Archbishop is agreable to the word of God : vz. ex illa generali et verissima Apostolica regula , &c. according to that generall & true Apostolicall rule , which appoynteth that all thinges should bee done orderly in the house of God . Est igitur or do &c. There is therefore ( saith hee ) an order in it selfe , and by it selfe prescribed by God , but the reason or vse of that order and the manner of it , dependeth vppon the circumstances of times , places , and persons , and is ( as men speake ) according to Lawes positiue . Nowe if these thinges that Beza writteth bee true : and that he himselfe ( peraduenture ) could bee well inough pleased , to enioye such an office ( if the sayde circumstances of time and place might serue his turne to obtaine it ) then we perceaue that such additions of titles , and preheminence , so he and his fellowes may haue them ; do make no such alteration of the essence of the ministerie , as with vs is pretended .

There is great barking , against the church of England , for that by Act of parliament , some partes of the Canon . Law , Canon Law . are retained and to bee vsed by our Bishops , for the better gouernment of the Church : insomuch as the very name of the Canon law , is become odious ; the common sort of simple men of the factious crue , verily supposing , that the name of such a law , rule , or institution , is popish , vnlawfull , and diuelish : and therfore they crie , out crucifie it , crucifie it , awaie with it , wee will not be ruled by it : we will none of it . As though they shoúld saye : we are lawlesse men : for rules and orders we detest them : whatsoeuer seemeth good in our own eyes , that we will doe : at the least if we euer yeald our obedience to any churchlaw , it shall bee surelie of our own making : fie vppon all former Councels , sie vppon all those decisions , which the auncient fathers made ; fie vpon all old and auncient constitutions . And thus in effect they write & speake , in their libels , and ordinarie table-talke : whereas notwithstanding , if there be anie thing in the Canon-law , that will serue their purposes , they can be content to steale it thence , & to take to themselues thereby , the commendation which is due to the true authors & fathers of it . Cartwright , & his fraternitie in their essentiall draught of discipline , haue drawen more then seuen partes of eight of it , out of the Canon-lawe , and auncient constitutions . Viretus perceiuing ( but too late , ) what hindrance grew to the platforme of their new discipline , by the vtter abolishing of the Canon-law at once , and as it were in a furie , ( which , he supposed , did & wold still haue bridled princes , if it had been retained and still in force ) sheweth his dislike of such rashnes in these wordes . The 3. Dial. of white Diuils : They thought it a goodly reformation in the Church to abolish all the Canons & decrees with the good statutes , which the auncient fathers and Doctors hadde ordayned , to mayntaine the good discipline in the church . The chiefe point indeed that grieued Viretus , ( as there it appeareth at large ) was this : because Princes by that meanes , had drawen their necks , from vnder the yoke of discipline . A matter so much misliked by them , as that he is flatte of opinion : that it had beene better for the Church to haue kept the old Pope still , then by abrogating of the Canon law , and in giuing to Princes so great authoritie in causes ecclesiasticall ; so to haue subiected her selfe to a new kind of papacie : euerie king & prince , being ( as he saith ) a new Pope by that meanes : & much worse then the olde . So that hereby , you see , what is the drift of our factious consistorians in laboring , to make the name of the Canon law odious . You may not think , that they differ in substance from their M. Viretus : but they are growen more crafty . The matter that pincheth than , is this : that in the acts of Parliament which are in force , there is euer a Prouiso , that nothing therof shal be in force , which is contrary to the laws of this Realme , or to the prerogatiue roiall of the prince . If euer anie K. in England should be so far seduced , as that he would yeald to establish their counterfeit elderships in this Realme , with all the royall authoritie , which they challenge of right to belong vnto them , & changing the two former prouisoes , should enact it , that all the canō-law shold be in force , sauing so much , as should bee contrary to the orders & prerogatiue of their elderships : If I shold then be aliue ( as I trust I shall not ) I durst before hand hazard a great wager vpon it , that they would most readily , & with a great applause , receiue it , & almost worship it . For as I said , you may not imagine , but that Viretus hath disclosed their verie hartes .

You know , Quire . there is in euery church for the most part a distinction of places betwixt the cleargie & the laity . We terme one place the chauncell , & the other the bodie of the church : which manner of distinction , doth greatly offend the tender consciences ( forsooth ) of the purer sorte of our reformers . Gilby in his dialog. Insomuch as M. Gilby , a chiefe man in his time amongst them , doth tearme the Quire a cage : & reckoneth that separation of the ministers from the congregation : one of the hundred points of popery , which hee affirmeth , do yet remaine in the church of England . Howbeit , admit but of their elderships into euery parish , & then you haue them , who will proue it out of the word of God , that there ought to be such a separation of their Aldermen , ( euery one of them , though he be but a Cobler ) from the rest of the Idiots , that is , all the other parishioners , of what state soeuer .

Hic or do in ecclesia seruetur &c. Dan. de potest eccl. cap. 24. Let this order be obserued in the church ( saith Danaeus , & he sendeth vs the rule from Geneua ) that these who do beare any office in the church , distinguantur et separentur a reliquo populo : may be distinguished & separated from the rest of the people &c. It a fieri decorum est et vtile . For it is decent & profitable that it should be so . The Bishop ( he meaneth euery minister ) must stand or sit , eminente loco ; alofte &c. and let the elders sit by him : tum vt populo appareant , that the people may beholde them : tum vt ministri concionantis doctrinam facilius intelligant et obseruent : and that they maye the more easily heare the doctrine of the Minister preaching , and the better marke it . For of likelihood , they are to be the preachers Censors .

You wil saie peraduenture , wher there is some L. Maior , some Councellor of state , or some other great Magistrate ; Nay the King himselfe ( for he must bee of some parish ) where shall he or anie of them sit ? That is wiselie prouided for , I warrant you . For how should it otherwise be , ibidem seeing the Prouiso commeth from Geneua ? Magistratus pius , &c. Let the godly Magistrate , who is an honorable member of the Church , sit in an honourable and perspicuous place : where the Church may neither seeme , to fauoure the arrogancy and pride of men , nor the contempte of Magistrates . And great discretion therein , surely . If the Magistrate should sit too high , it would make him proude : if too low , it would bring him into contempt . Ergo modus in loco illi concedendo seruetur , &c , therefore let a mean be kept in appointing of a place vnto him , ( Knight , Lorde , Earle , Duke , King , or Emperour , the holie Discipline respecteth no mens persons ) that he may both vnderstand , he is preferred before the rest : and yet withall , that he hath no dominion ouer the word of God . In deede excesse in anie thing is nought , Sedeat itaque inferiori subsellio : let him therfore sit in a lower seat , then the preacher of the word of God , and the Prophet : that he may both see and acknowledge himselfe to be subiect to the threats of the word . The parson or Bishop of euerie parish with his Artizan Elders , must sitte in the highest place , that the people may feede themselues with the sight of them : the ciuile Magistrates ( of what degree soeuer ) must content themselues with inferior roomes : and the rest of the people are to sit super mattas & sedilia inferiora , vppon pesses and little lowe formes . I am perswaded it would greatlie trouble the subiects of England , to see such a Metamorphosis in her Maiesties Chappell . But see what a notable thing Discipline is : and how the Ministers of Geneua can plaie the Herralds , in marshalling of euerie state into their due places , according to their callings . If these men were then in England and should suruey our Quiers , I suppose nothing would offend them , but that , that they are too low . The place where the Roode-loft was , would bee thought peraduenture more sutable for their Elders . Indeed there the people might best behold them .

Lastlie , Fathers : T.C. l. 1. p. 112 because I will end this Chapter : if Cartwright can get but one Scholiaste , that doth in shew make for anie thing he liketh , it is notable to see what reuill hee maketh with it . And in like sort Maister Beza , when the Fathers do fit him , as in some points they doe against Erastus : Beza con : Era. lib : scrip . fo. 12 then these manner of phrases are common . Rectè obseruauit Augustinus : Augustine wel obserued it &c. Againe , an vero Chrys. &c. what , doe you thinke that Chrysostome and all the old Churches ; Beza ibi . fo. 24 not one excepted , saw not this ? Againe , Hic te obtestamur frater &c. we do here besech you brother , that you would wel consider , in whose behalfe and against whom you dispute , cum rem ipsam ab vsu non distinguas : when you distinguish not the thing it selfe from the abuse of it . ibidem . Againe , Haec Chrysostomus , ibidem fol. 27. quae tibi satisfacere rectè debent . These thinges Chrysostome affirmeth , which ought to satisfie you fully . Again , Nunquam aliter fuit hic locus in Ecclesia explicatus . ibidem fol. 25. This place was neuer otherwise expounded in the Church . And againe : A temporibus Apostolorum ad haec vsque secula nunquam illa caruerunt Ecclesiae . From the Apostles times , euen vnto the age wherein we liue , the Church did neuer want autoritie of Excommunication . And as at times they are content to accept of the Fathers : so will they also vpon the like occasion ; allow of generall Councells . Whereas certaine persons in Transiluania beganne to reuiue diuerse old Heresies , about the person of Christ : Maister Beza writeth in this sorte . An non in mentem vobis veniebat amplissimus ille Nicenae &c. Beza Epist. ● Did you not remember the moste worthy assemblye of Nice , of Ephesus , of Calcedon : quo nihil vn quam sanctius , nihil augustius ab Apostolorum excessu sol vnquam aspexit ? The Sonne it selfe hath neuer beheld , since the Apostles departure out of this world , any thing that was more holy , or more excellent , then those assemblies were . Thus I say both Beza , Cartwright , and the rest of the Disciplinarie humor doe write , both of the auncient Fathers , and of the olde Councels , when they please them in any matter . But otherwise , let anie of them all , naie iointlie al of them together , impugne anie part of the new pretended Discipline , or crosse them there : Oh , they touch the apple of euerie one of their eies , they care not for their authorities , they despise their decrees , they cannot endure them : as now it shall be shewed in the next Chapter following .

CHAP. XXVII . How they deale with the auncient Fathers , Ecclesiasticall Histories and generall councels , when they are alledged against them .

WHen , for the proofe of sundrie matters , impugned by them : they are vrged with the testimonies of the auncient Fathers , and of the Ecclesiasticall Histories , they either shift them off , with their owne false gloses , D. W. or if that serue not their turne , they disgrace them as much as they can and so reiect them . Where Ignatius ascribeth verie much to a Bishop : as , that nothinge should bee done in the Church without his consent : and saith that hee hath a principality and power ouer all , ascribing vnto him in that respect the title of Prince of Priestes : they expound the word , T.C. lib : 2. pa. 620. 517. Priestes , to signifie both Ministers of the word and ruling Elders : the saide power ouer all , to extend but onelie to the saide kindes of Priests in one parish : T.C. lib. 1. pa. 113. 110. and the name Prince to meane no more , but as it were a moderator , chosen out of those Ministers , for one meeting onlie , to propound such matters , as were then to be handled , to collect the voices and to moderat that action . Which interpretation is onely framed according to the practise of Geneua , and such great Churches , ( as Cartwright tearmeth them ) which haue ( saith he ) diuerse Ministers and ruling Elders in them : 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Epist. ad Tralli . and is ( God knoweth ) as far from Ignatius meaning and words , as falshoode is from the trueth . And yet either thus he must speake , or els if you presse them further , T.C. l : 2. p. 622. then they shall well like of , the poore old Father is straight way reiected , as a counterfaite and a vaine man .

It being shewed according to Ireneus wordes : D. W. Ireneus lib. 4. cap. 63. vz. that the Apostles committed the Churches in euery place to the Bishops : and that euerie one of the Apostles seuerally , did appoint Bishops in those Churches which they had planted , as S. Paul did at Ephesus and Creta : T.C. l. 2. p. 482 Cartwright answereth thus : For the explositiō of Ireneus , T.C. l. 2. p. 155. which interpreteth . They , euery one seuerally : if they seuerally ordained Bishops , euery one in his circuit , so it be vnderstood with the Churches consent , as is before declared , I am well content . Are yee so ? Surely it is great ioy of you . And what is before declared ? Forsooth Maister Beza in effect saith , Annot. Beza in Act. 14. & 1 Tim. 5. v. 22 1. Tit. that the Apostles did not appoint any Bishops : that is , any Pastor , Doctor , or ruling Elder by their owne authority : but the choise of euery Church-officer being first made by consent of the whole parishe . Then , any Apostle that was present , did consecrat the saide partie , so chosen , vnto the Lorde , by laying his handes vppon him nomine Presbyterij , in the name of the Presbyterie . This is then the issue that Ireneus must stande to . Except hee will frame his speach after the newe cutte , euen according to Bezaes pleasure . Cartwright ( you see ) will not allowe him . If he were now aliue , hee might well thinke scorne to be thus vsed , by either of them both , contrarie to his owne meaning .

Iustinus Martyr , D. W. being brought to witnes for Bishops , and their authoritie in his time , about the yeare 130. ( which was some nine yeares after Sainct Iohns death ) where he calleth euerie such B. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 that is , prelate , because the ruling of the Ministerie & people within his circuit appertained chiefly to his charge . Cartwright termeth this seeking into the fathers writings , ( to find out the historical truth of this cause so much by him impugned ) a raking in Ditches , T.C. li. 1. p. 114 and laboureth in this sort to rid his handes of him , saying : First , this Prelate , was but as a moderator , to propound matters &c. Secondly , that he was Prelate of the people , not of the Ministers , which is contrarie to his first exception ; except he will say the people had then the gouernment of the Churche , amongest whom he should be moderator . Which being obserued ( as I thinke ) by Beza , he alledgeth this place of Iustinus , Bezae anno● 1. Tim. 5.19 . to prooue Timothy in Ephesino Presbyterio fuisse 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 id est , Antistes , vt vocat Iustinus , to haue been Prelate in his pretended Eldershippe at Ephesus . Cartwright hath also a thirde aunswere in his second Booke : T.C. l. 2. p. 621 bee it graunted , that Iustinus president had superioritye ouer the Ministers , yet how fondlye is it concluded : that it is lawfull because it was ? But his maine Barricado for defence is this : in the daies that Iustine liued , there began to peepe out in the Ministerye , some thinges which went from the simplicitye of the Gospell , as that the name of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 which was common to the Elders with the Ministers of the word , T.C. l. 1. p. 114 was ( as it seemeth ) appropriated vnto one .

For the proofe of the antiquitie of Bishops , D , W. Ieromes testimonie is brought : that at Alexandria from Saincte Marke the Euangelist , Ierome ad Euagrium . there was a Bishop placed in a higher degree aboue Priestes , as it were a Captaine ouer an Army . About which wordes they busie themselues wonderfully . First ( saie they ) thinges being ordered then by the suffrages of the Ministers and Elders : T , C ▪ l , 1 , p. 107 , it might ( as it falleth out oftentimes ) bee done without the approbation of Sainct Marke , How it falleth out amongest them , it is no great matter . That they should euer agree , were more to bee maruailed . But to laie such an imputation vppon that church : Sainct Marke himselfe being present , I thinke it a lewd part , and too full of presumption . Besides , Saincte Marke might haue appealed ( by their conceites ) vnto some Classis , if hee had disliked that ordinaunce . But if this shifte will not serue : then they haue another , that the wordes from Sainct Marke may be rather taken exclusiuely to shutte out Sainct Marke , and the time wherein he liued , then inclusiuely to shut him in the time wherein this distinction rose , Hier , proem . in Matt , Wherein he sheweth his ignorance : for Ierome calleth Saint Marke the Bishop of Alexandria .

In the ende , he vseth this fond quirke . It is to bee obserued , that Sainct Ierome saith it was so in Alexandria , signifying thereby that in other Churches it was not so : and we are rather to follow Ierusalem that kept Christes institution , then Alexandria that departed from it . Haue you seene a Bi●de in a lime-bushe ? But yet he plungeth , and when all comes to all , if these shiftes shall be thought insufficient , this is the last , both for this point and certain other , of the profite which the Church receaueth by Bishops , &c: corruption groweth in time : T , C , l , 1 , p , 103. as the times are , so are men that liue in them : there is not such sinceritye to bee looked for at Ieromes handes in his times , as from others that went before him : besides his other faultes , he might in this matter haue spoken more soundly . And Beza shameth not , to giue him the lie : ( in effect ) and to deride him . For where Sainct Ierome saith : that when some would needes holde of Paul , some of Apollo , and some of Cephas : it was ordained for the auoidinge of Schisme , totius orbis decreto , by a decree of the whole worlde , that one shoulde bee chosen by the Priestes to bee aboue the rest . The iudgem●t of the most reuerend , Epist , ad Ia , Lauson Scoc. That is not so ( saith Beza . ) And in another place : quod tandem istud decretum , quando & a quibus factum ? what decree was this ? when and by whom was it made ?

It is most apparaunt , D , W , and cannot bee denied , but that Ireneus , Cyprian , Tertullian , Ambrose , Ierome , Augustine , and diuerse other auncient writers , doe call Bishops the Apostles successors . In so much as some of them , especially the authors of the Ecclesiasticall Histories , doe drawe long Catalogues of the particular Bishops names , that succeeded the Apostles , and other Apostolical men , whom they made Bishops . Which Catalogues and manner of speach of the said fathers , being vsed by them verie fitly against such Heretickes as did rise vp in their daies , haue since in our time , beene greatly abused by the Papistes . Vnto whome , the learned men , that haue stoode for the trueth against them , by writing , Iuell , Sadeil , de legit , vocat , mi●ist , &c , haue continually aunswered : That the fathers arguments drawen from the said personall succession by Bishops were verie effectuall , so long as the succession of the Apostles doctrine did concurre therewithall : and that the fathers in vrging of the first , had euer an especial eie to the second , some point of Doctrine being euer called in question by the saide Heretiques .

And this answere , as it is in it selfe most true , so it hath ben hitherto generally receiued . Yet now another must be sought . For whereas in our daies , the verie calling it selfe of Bishops , is so brought into question , that men are enforced to seek their original : & amongst many reasons for the iustifying of it , do bring the said fathers to testifie in this cause , that the Apostles themselues appointed BB. & that they were generallie accounted in their times to be the apostles successors : Now Cartwright with his crue commeth forth amongst vs , & telleth vs that in all such places where the Fathers and Ecclesiasticall writers doe saie : T , C , l , 2 , p. 572 , that the Bishops succeede the Apostles , we must vnderstand them , that by Bishops , they mean euery Pastor in his own parishe , whom he affirmeth to be onlie the Apostles BB. T , C , l. 1 , p , 63 , and that where they call them the successors of the Apostles , that is to bee vnderstood , because they propound the same doctrine that they did . T.C. l , 2 , p , 458 In this sence ( saith he in another place ) I grant it true , that all Bishops , that is Pastors , succeed the Apostles . So as then , the said personall succession is here quite excluded . Part. 1. cont. Turrian , p●g 64 And besides , for his other succession of doctrine , Sadeil being verie desirous to make the said places of the fathers to seem , as though they were greatly to be insisted vpon , sticketh not much to grant , to euery laie man ( that feareth God ) as great a priuiledge , as Cartwright doth , to his Pastors : callinge them likewise the Apostles Successors , quatenus Apostolorum doctrinam retinent , et Apostilicis vestigiis insistunt : as farre as they holde the Apostles doctrine , and doe walke in their pathes . And thus , wee must expounde the Fathers , euen as the Father of all such Expositions did that of the Psalme ; Mat. 4. Angelis suis mandauit de te : or else they will tell vs , that they were but men : that they speake as the times required wherein they liued : that they writ vntruely , and manye things to like purpose . As if wee were to account no otherwise of them , but as of time-seruers , men-pleasers , deceauers , and ambitious persons .

Though Ierome ( being an earnest man for the abating of the Deacons pride at Rome , Ierom ad Nep : Ierom in Esay 60. in preferring of themselues before the order of Priestes , whereof hee himselfe was one , Ier. ad Euagr. Ier. ad Marco . ) doth speake as much as he could deuise to suppres their insolencies , and to aduance his own orders : as that Priests were once called Bishops &c. yet he was content in other places , and vppon other occasions , to confesse that Bishops are in respect of Priests : as Aaron was in respect of his sonnes : that Esay did foretel that Bishops should be chiefe gouernours of the church : that the Priest was contayned in the name of Bishop 1. Tim. 3. as the lesse in the greater : that Bishops did holde the places of the Apostles : and euen in the verie heate of his said disputations against Deacons , hee willingly and expresselye graunteth to Bishops one great prerogatiue , vz. the ordination of Priestes , which did not belong to his order .

Now it is not vnknowen , what aduantage is taken against all Ieromes words ; which may be with any shew of trueth vrged against Bishops . And it will not be admitted of , in this case , which in some other , the best of them are enforced to admit vz. that such his wordes , were vttered in heate of disputation : and not dogmaticè . But whatsoeuer hee hath written in anye place either in his commentaries vpon the scripture , or in his letters , when he had laid aside the person of a partie , that had interest , and stoode not vppon euerie thing that might giue anie aduantage , as the manner is in disputation : all I saie whatsoeuer , it must yeald and stoope to that which maie in any sorte impaire the credit of Bishops , or else , woe be to poore Ierome , Do et . Iesuit . Tom. 4 ▪ p. 525. hee writeth contraries , and I wot not what . And there is one , that hath sent vs worde in his booke from Rochell : that he knoweth a knacke , how Ierome may be expounded , that hee shall not leaue to the Bishops , so much as ordination . Where we reade in Ierome : Quid facit excepta ordinatione Episcopus quod non facit Presbyter ? What doth a Bishop , excepting ordination , that a priest doth not ? Now saith this fellow : vide candide Lector , num legendum sit , accepta ordinatione : vt sensus sit : ille qui ordinatus est a compresbyteris Episcopus , nihil facit , quod presbyter non facit . Obserue gentle reader whether wee may not reade , hauing receiued ordination ; that the sense may be : He that is ordayned of his fellow-Elders a Bishop , doth nothing that a priest maye not doe . Which is too too childish .

To prooue the antiquitie and lawfulnes , D.W. of the name of an Archbishop , there being alledged the authorities of Clement , Anacletus , Anicetus , Epiphanius , Ambrose , & Sozomenus : and thereuppon a conclusion inferred , with a saying of Augustines ; that seing the name is so auncient and that the originall thereof is not founde : it should seeme to haue come from the Apostles : They tearme the bringing-in of these authorities the a a T : C. lib. 2. pa 513. mouing & summoning of Hell : they saye those tymes b b T.C. lib. 2. p. 5 111. were not pure and virgine-like , but departed from the Apostolicall simplicitie , and doe treade them all vnder theyr feete , with as great facilitie as may be . c c T.C. lib. 1. pa 88. Clement , Anacletus , and Anicetus are discharged for rogues , and men branded in the foreheads . d d T : C. lib 2 : pa. 493. Epiphanius , wrote according to the time he liued in about 380. and though the name of Archbishop was in his time amongst Grecians , e e T. C lib 2 pag 494. yet it followeth not thereby that it was in vse amongst the Latines . For Ambrose , when Cartwright writte his first Booke , and that they were not so throughlie angred , as now they are , hee onely gaue him this brande . f f TC . l. 1. p. 94 Ambrose holdeth other thinges corruptlye : and then hee expoundeth him , that of likelyhoode the Archbishop hee speaketh of , was no other then he , which for the time ruled the action , when Bishops were ordayned : and after the action ended hadde no more authoritie then the rest . But since his choller increasing , first hee beganne ( as he sayth ) in his second booke to g g T.C. lib. 2. p. 491. suspect the place alledged out of his booke de dignitate Sacerdotum to be corrupted , whereuppon within a short time after he grew to bee so hardened against him by finding some other things also in the saide booke which hee misliked : that he hath bored him in the eare for a Roge likewise , and sent him a rouing amongst his fellowes , making the author of that booke a false Ambrose , which is an vnlearned shift . h h T.C. li. 1. p. 93 Sozomenus and Volusianus , they writt not according to that which was , but according to the custome and manner of the age wherein they wrotte . As though he should saye , they lied . And as touching i i T.C. li. 1. p : 9● Augustine , his sentence is approued ( say they ) vnaduisedly , and that thereby a windowe is open , to bring in all poperie . Which is a lewde reproch .

For the antiquitie of the name of Archdeacon , pag. 144 are alledged by D.W. the testimonies of Damasus , Ierome , Sixtus , Sozemene , & Socrates . To whose authorities , their answere is : T. C. lib. 2. pag. 502.303 . two of them are counterfeits : Damasus spake in the Dragons voice : Amongst men , the best ground beareth thistles : those times were corrupt . And yet Sixtus liued Bishop of Rome , about the yeare 265. and was a godly martyr .

A number of authorities , being cited : which affirme that Timothie was Bishop of Ephesus , as Eusebius , Dorotheus , Nicephorus , Ierome , Isidorus , Dionysius Areopagita , Epiphanius , Ambrose , Chrisostome , Oecumenius , Theodoret , &c. Their aunswere is . T.C. li. 2. p. 313 They esteeme him a Bishop indeed and not an Euangelist . But what then ? if they were for one a hundred , they cannot counteruayle , much lesse beare downe the testimony of the Apostle . As though they euer purposed anye such matter . But it goeth hard , when for a matter of historie , all these worthie Fathers , can find no better credit . If Timothy were Bishop of Ephesus , D.W. I trust he will not say that the Apostle is ouerborne . And that he was Bishop , all these affirme it , who liuing neerer to the Apostles times , shold know aswell as Cartwright , what was in fact then : and being both as religious and as learned as he wold pretend to be , could as easily haue espied , what repugnances there was betwixt that practise , and the Apostles writings ; and would as earnestly haue reprooued it , if there had beene any , as hee .

Sainct Ciprian and Sainct Ierome are of opinion , nay S. Ierome saith , it was the opinion and the iudgement of the whole catholicke Church : ( for so I interprete his words the whole worlde ) that for the auoyding of schismes and heresies , it was necessarie that there should be one Bishop in euery Diocese ( as our learned writers haue thought of those places , writing against the Papists ) to gouerne and ouer-rule the rest of the Priestes within their charge , least otherwise ( as by experience it was found amongst the Corinthians , ) there would be in short time as many schismes & altars , as there were priests and heades ; and that euery one might not carry his schollers after him , and so following their own fancies teare in pieces the Church of Christ . With them in like manner all the godly generall Councels since that time haue agreed , & finding daily new mischiefs to arise , which were not before hatched , haue for the meeting with them , increased accordinglye the authoritie of Bishops : and so kept the church in good order at the least for aboue fiue hundred yeares . Since which time , although the Pope with extreme iniurie to all other Bishops , hath lifted himselfe by a false title , aboue not only them , but aboue al kings , & Emperors in like manner , neuer ceasing till he hath set himselfe in the seate of the beast : yet with many other points of Christianitie , this also hath beene preserued , that the gouernment of the church by Bishops , in euery Kingdome , prouince , and Dioces , is Apostolical : and not only in that respect to be for euer continued , but necessary also in regarde of the causes before mentioned . But now all this is reckoned nothing . There are some two or three ; that do take vpon them to prooue ( forsooth ) that all the said Fathers T.C. lib. 2. pag. 641. ●82 , 492. 447. &c. of the primatiue Church , all Councells , and all whosoeuer that haue liked that ordinaunce , Beza in his reuerend iudgement . haue been deceaued in their iudgements : in that they haue accounted the institution of Bishops , & their gouernment , to be a means for the auoiding of schismes , or for the maintenaunce of the peace of the Church . But how they prooue it , I will not stand now vppon that poynt . It is forsooth in a worde : by discourse of reason ( whereof Cartwright , braggeth ) and for that ( as they saie ) there were great controuersies in the church notwithstanding their institution &c. And now it is their Eldership , must weare the Crowne , and reforme all that is amisse . Well what wee are to thinke of their Elderships ; we partly haue seene , and yet shall heare more , before I haue done . In the meane time , it is euident how they oppose their owne iudgement , to all the world since Christs time .

Cyrillus , for calling the Bishop 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 high priest ( as Ignatius hadde done in effect before ; Tert. de baptis . the prince or chiefe of priests : and Tertullian also , Episcopus est summus Sacerdos , the Bishop is the high priest ) is wonderfully censured . Hee that bringeth in a priest into the church ( saith Cartwright ) goeth about to burye our Sauiour Christ . T.C. lib. 1. pag. 114. And as for him that bringeth in an high priest into the church , hee goeth about to put our Sauiour Christ out of his office . This that he affirmeth here , toucheth not only Cyrill ; but the most ( I am sure ) of all the auncient Fathers : who were as carefull , for the office and prerogatiue of Christ , and haue written , as manye notable woorkes against such Hereticks , as haue impugned his Soueraigntie in any respect ; as euer he or his Sectaries haue written , or I thinke will doe . But his breath , maye well blast himselfe : they , I doubt not , are in heauen , and it cannot touch them . Wee vppon earth are to honor theyr memories : and ( for all proude and wicked censure ) are to learne from them , that such names not being giuen to anie minister in respect of anye office peculiarlie belonging to Christ , may lawfullie bee retayned in the Church of God .

D.W. Whereas to approoue the lawfull vse of some holydaies , allowed and appointed to bee kept in the Church of Englande : amongst diuerse reasons this is one , the continuance of them in the times of Ignatius , Tertullian , Ciprian , Ierome , Augustine , and sondrie others , together with theyr good lyking and approbation of them : T.C. l. 1. p. 154 They complaine : that trueth is measured by the crooked yarde of time : and therefore doe appeale from these Examples vnto the Scriptures and to the Apostles times . As though the saide auncient Fathers , & the churches in their times : had not knowen the scriptures aswell as he or his Sectaries , and that ( notwithstanding the fourth commaundement ) it was lawfull , for the church to appoint , & obserue such daies , which , vpon that only ground , & contrarie to the practise of the whole church , since the Apostles times ; he vtterly denieth to be lawful : induced therunto ( no doubt ) because Geneua hath abolished them , vz. Christmas-day , Easter-day , Ascention-day , Whitsontide , with all the rest . A fact that in the time of the ancient fathers , would surely haue beene accounted a tricke of Paganisme .

Iustinus , D. W : Irenaeus , Tertullian , Ciprian , Ambrose , Ierome , Basile , Augustine , Socrates , Sozimene , the Counsell of Auricanum , of Neocaesaria , of Nice , of Gangrene , & of Orleaunce , being cited , to prooue the churches authoritie in things of indifferencie , and for the obseruation of many thinges accordingly not mentioned in the scriptures : T : C. lib. 1. pag 29.32 . Cartwright , first complaineth , T. C. lib. 2. pag 87. &c. that he is so pestred with such kinde of authorities in steed of Esay , Ieremy , S. Paule , & S. Peter : and then he shaketh them off altogether , because the things which they affirm are now called into question , vz. by him & his fellows . So as when it pleaseth them to call any thing into question that all the fathers held , away they must , there is no remedie .

Cirill affirming , that the lawe of Moses for punishing adulterie by death , T.C. l. 2. p. 105 is not now in force : Cartwright answereth : T.C. l. 2. p. 107 as for Cirill , I can at no hande allow his opinion : his sentence is corrupt . Chrisostome & Oecumenius doe vnderstand the place of Timothy , for the imposition of handes there mentioned , of Bishops not of Priests . Cartwright therunto saith : D : W. pa: 199. I aunswere at once , that it seemeth violent . T.C. l : 2 : p : 269. Eusebi●s giuing Iosephus this great commendation , that hee was Historicorum qui sunt apud Iudeos facilè Princeps , the principall man amongst the Iewes for a writer of histories : Maister Beza disgraceth him in this sort , in his oration , when he was first chosen to be Rector of the Schoole at Geneua : Iosephum &c. I doe reckon Iosephus not onelye amongst the prophane , but also in the number of ridiculous and foolish writters . And whereas Origene , Chrisostome , the Creeke scholiast , Theodoret , Theophilact , Ambrose , and Ierome , doe expounde Rom. 12.8 . He that distributeth , let him doe it with simplicitie : not of Deacons , that giue other mens almes , but of all christians generally , such as do giue almes théselues : T.C. lib : 3 , pag: 89.90 . Cartwright disliking this exposition , determineth of them after this sort : They often strayne the text to drawe them to the present vse of theyr churches : by reason whereof in steed of milke they somtimes draw blood . He measureth the Fathers , D.W. by his own falsehood .

When they are told , that the auncient histories are against them , concerning a point by them denied , about the chosing of BB. in Ciprians time : they confesse it , that they are so indeed : and thus they auoyd them : that except it can be shewed out of some ecclesiasticall history of like auncientie with Ciprian ; T.C. l : 2.534 . it is nothing . By which one blowe , all the ecclesiasticall histories ( that are now extant of name ) since Christs time ( so far as I do presentlie remember except it be Philo Iudeus ) are quight cut off , as insufficient witnesses of any thing , before their own times : that is of any thing , for the space of 300 ▪ yeares at the least after Christ . There were Ecclesiasticall writers before , as it may appeare in diuerse places of Eusebius : out of whom both he and others after him , borrowed much : but now they are lost , and we haue them not .

Where it was saide in the behalfe of the auncient Fathers , D.W. and generall Councelles , for the first 500. yeares ( being charged with corruption , and I wotte not with what building & working to make a way for Antichrist &c ) that they laboured to keepe out Antichrist &c , they aunswere : T.C. lib. 2. pa. 507.508 . the Fathers imagined fondly of Antichrist : they dealt like ignoraunt men : they were ouer-mastered of their affections : they had many errors &c. And all this is spoken by a man much more fond , ignoraunt , affectionate , and erroneous , ( as I am perswaded ) then they were .

But yet heare the man and his maister a little further . T , C , l , 1. p. 97. It is a daungerous thing to ground our order or pollicy of the Church vppon men . Again : Although the louuer of this Antichristian building was not then sette vp : yet the foundation thereof being secretely laide in the Apostles times , Ibidem , you might easily know that in those times , the building was wonderfully aduaunced and growen verie high . And Beza also : The Fathers , The iudgem●t of the most reuerend , in the Councell of Nice , vnderlaide the seate of the Harlot , that sitteth vppon seauen mountaines . Againe Maister Cartwright : T , C , l , 2 , p. 511. Those times were not pure , nor virgin-like : the Churches were then much departed from the singlenes , wherein the Apostles had left them . Lastlie : Examples cannot be without great daunger set from those times . And thus all , but Caluin , pag. 11. Beza , and himselfe are men : there is no good building but their owne , nor anie purity to be found , but in them , their fauourers , their deuises and platformes .

It is alleadged out of Theodoret , that Sainct Chrisostom , being Bishop of Constantinople , had the care not onely of that Church , ● . W. p. 412.413 . but of the Churches also in Thracia , in Asia , and in Pontus : and out of Sozemenus , that he deposed thirteen Bishops for Simonie in selling of benefices . Vnto which testimonies they aunswere : First , that this care was no other then such , as euery godly Minister ought to haue ouer all the Churches in Christendome . For example , as Beza hath of the Churches in Fraunce : and so Chrisostom was Bishop onely in the Church of Constantinople , and hadde an eie and care to those other Churches . Which aunswere proceedeth from grosse ignorance or malice . Secondlye , that if Chrisostome had charge ouer all those Churches , he had as large a dominion as euer the Pope had . T.C. l. 2 : p. 524 , 525 , 526 , Wherein also he sheweth his grosse ignorance in taking Asia there , for the third part of the world . Thirdly , that , if he hadde any such authority , he was guilty of the breach of many Canons and Councels . Fourthly , that he could saie , he was a prowde man . Fifthlie , that it might be aunswered : that Chrisostom deposed the said Bishops , not by his authority , but by his counsail . Sixtly , that it was Pope-like and vnlawfull to put in and put out , of his absolute authority : and lastly , that it is dangerous to builde vppon the examples of those times . And thus as a man in a maze , he goeth backeward and foreward , finding nothing to rest vppon , but his own meere vngodly and slaunderous surmises . A fit guide he is , for giddie heads to follow .

Whereas for the antiquitye of Archbishops , D , W , the first generall councell that was after the Apostles times , vz. the Councell of Nice , is alledged in these words . Let the auncient custome be kept throughout Egipt , Libia and Pentapolis , that the Bishop of Alexandria may haue the gouernment of all these &c. T.C. l. 2 , p , 562. First , ( saie they ) nothing was graunted by those words to the Bishop of Alexandria , but onely to sit in the highest place at meetings : which is most direct against the tenor of that Canon , and is but a sottish shift , grounded especiallie vppon this , that Beza in his annotations vppon Iohn 1. doth expound this word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ( which the Councell vseth ) to signifie dignitie or prerogatiue . And secondly where it is said : let the auncient custome preuaile . T , C , l. 2 , p. 484 The Bishops ( saith Cartwright ) comparing that decree with others made at that time , and not before , called that an ancient custome . As if Ministers being assembled together , to speak of a matter continued a score of Prouinciall Synodes , and holden in the space of ten yeares , should say in this sorte : in suche and such thinges we will keepe our old custome . Which they themselues , might saie as well if they list , concerning their bastardly Discipline , that secretlie and seditiouslie eight or nine yeares since , they haue agreed vppon ( after their fashion like dogges and cats ) in manie of their assemblies . But if either he , or anie other of the said Ministers should so saie , they should certainelie in mine opinion speake verie foolishly and verie ignorauntlie . And whether it is likelie , that all the auncient Fathers , assembled in that Councell , would vse such a Sophistication in one of their Canons ; that iudge you : or whether there was euer anie man before Cartwright , so presumptuouslie impudent , as to expound their words in this sort , that I leaue to himselfe and his followers to consider of , at their leasure .

But the Councell must speake according to his pleasure : or otherwise marke how he commeth ouer it . First he gibeth at these titles , which are giuen vnto it , to bee a notable and famous Councell : T , C , l , 1 , pa , 93 , secondlie , he taketh vppon him , to proue , that the said Canon was not a good decree : because as he saith , some other decrees then made , are not sound : thirdly , ( allowing the decision that was giuen by that Councell , of the difference touching the perfect vnity of substance in Trinity . ) For the rest he saith thus : the most of the errors agreed vpon in that Councell were in the Discipline . The most Belike there were some then in the Doctrine . Those which he hath named for such great errors , were not agreed vpon as matters of doctrine , to my vnderstanding , but were orders thoght meet in those daies for the pollicie of the Church . I omit what reckning hath bin euer made of this Councell , by al other Councels and fathers since that time . Instit. lib , 4 , ca. ▪ ● , Sect , 750 , Caluin is content to embrace the first foure generall Councels , quantúm attinet ad fidei doctrinam , so farre as they haue dealt with the doctrine of faith : thogh Cartwright in the height of his pride do challenge the doctrine . But euery man now will allow , and disalow what he list . The Arrians wil say as much of the doctrine , as either Caluin or Cartwright do say of the discipline . And so euerie Schismatick or Heretick : look what serues their turne , that is holie : what they dislike ; that is erroneus .

About the choosing of Ministers much hath bin pretended for the peoples interest . Against which conceit for the necessity of it : amgst manie reasons prop ounded , the Councell of Laodicea hath beene alledged : where it was decreed about the yeare 338. that it ought not to bee permitted vnto the multitude to make election of them , Instit , lib. 4 , c , 4 , Sect , 12 , which should be preferred to the ministerie . M. Caluin doth greatly allow of this canon , which sheweth his liking of the peoples restraint : and he affirmeth a sense vnto it , as though that Councell had purposed to haue squared out the same platform for the erecting of Ministers , that he hath deuised and established in Geneua . Read the lawes of Geneua about the making of Ministers , and you shall finde them whollie to agree with his words in this place . Now if we can be content to receaue this exposition , T , C , l , 1 , p. 53 , which Cartwright maketh ( being the verie marrow of Maister Caluins ) vz. T.C. l. ● . p. 256 the Canon meant not to haue the people secluded from the election , but tendeth only to the directing of them by the foreiudgement of the Elders : he will bee content to let it passe without more adoe . Otherwise notwithstanding Caluins commendation of it , he can tell vs ( but vntrulie & without anie warrant ) that this Canon is suspected , whether it be a Bastard or no : and that manie Councels are against it .

Maister Caluin confesseth , that before the Councel of Nice , there were first BB , placed in their dioces aboue the Ministers : then Archbishops ouer Bishops : and lastlie in the saide Nicene Councell , that there were Patriarchs appointed ouer Archbishops . Now whereas the Councell of Antioch about some 15. yeares after saith : It behoueth the Bishops in euery countrey to know their Metropolitane Bishop , to haue care ouer the whole prouince : propter quod , for which cause all such as haue any busines , must come to their Metropolitan city : wherefore it pleaseth this Councell that he also excell in honor , and that the other Bishops do nothing without him , according to the ancient rule prescribed by our forefathers , but those things only which pertaine to his own Dioces . Cartwright deliuereth vs these gloses vpon it : T. C l. 1. p. 93. A Metropolitan Bishop ( saith he ) was nothing else but a Bishop of that place , which was the chiefe citty of the Dioces or shire : and as for the name , it maketh no more difference betwixt Bishop and Bishop , T.C. l. 2 , p , 556 then when I say a Minister of London , and a Minister of Newington . Secondly . there is no mention here that BB. are subiect to the Metropolitan . Thirdly , for the honor they should giue him , I haue shewed it out of the Councel of Nice . T , C , l , 2 , p , 622 , Fourthly , the care for other Churches is but such , as euery good Minister should haue of al churches . Fiftlie , the word Dioces should be parish . For the Councell did not mean that the Bishops mentioned had Diocesses : T. C l. 2. p. 565. but euery one of them one town only , hauing belonging vnto it certaine villages , which did resort vnto his church , as in Hitchin and diuers other places with vs . He should haue said Geneua , but all this hee affirmeth most absurdly . Besides , this is his ordinary practise , that because the word vsed amongest the Greeke writers ordinarily for a dioces , doth likewise also signifie a parish : he euer , to falsifie such authors as are brought against him , doth translate for dioces , parish , as in this place he doth it with a most brasen forehead . The councell of Nice , of Antioch , of Carthage , and of Sardis , directly prouing that Bishops only had authority to excommunicate : T , C , l. 3 , p , 91 , Cartwright giueth no other answere vnto them but this : that Maister Caluin saith : how Bishops in excommunicating after that manner dealt therein ambitiously .

Athanasius saith : that Dionysius Bishop of Alexandria , had the Churches of Pentapolis committed to his care : Cartwright saith , T , C , l , 2. p , 622 , that care importeth not iurisdiction : and so as to the Councell of Nice and of Antioch . Cyprian saith , the cause of heresies and schismes is this : that Priests wil not obey their BB. Cartwright that answereth . that is in effect , if his vnpreaching Aldermen will not obay their Pastors . Epiph. li , 2 : To. ● . here s , 6● . Epiphanius speaking of one Peter a Bishop of Alexandria , saith : this is the custome , that the Bishop of Alexandria should haue the Ecclesiastiasticall gouernment of all Egipt , Thebais , Mariota , Libia , Ammonica , Mariotes , & Pentapolis : Whereupon Cartwright gloseth thus : that is , besides his own church , T.C. l. 2. p. 56● he procured the good of other churches , round about him . ●piph . here . 69 Again , Epiphanius of one Miletus an Archbishop , that he was subiect or vnder the said Peter Archbishop of Alexandria . Cartwright saith , that euery Bishop of name was called an Archbishop . T : C. l. 1. p. 560. And where it is said Miletus was vnder Peter : that is , vnder him in honour , and not subiect vnto him , saith Cartwright : contrary to the manifest words and meaning of the author . Theodoret Bishop of Cyprus saith of himself , that he had the gouernment ouer 800. Churches : Cartwright saith in effect , that he lied : that his words concerning his care in gouerning those churches , being spoken of himselfe want not suspition , and that hee was condemned for writing against Cirill : neuer mentioning how hee was wrongfully condemned in his absence , and afterward restored .

I omit a number of their other shifts and presumptuous dealings with the fathers . T. C. li. 1. p. 113 T. C. li. 1. p. 41 As of Epiphanius : For him it is knowen of what authority he is , &c. it were better to laie his words against Aerius , T : C. l. 2. p. 528 , vpon some counterfaite and false Epiphanius to spare his credit . Likewise of Ambrose : Many errors & corrupt expositions are found in his works : in his exposition vpon the place to the Philippians , a child may see , how violently he forceth the Text. And also their reiecting of Councels by heaps , &c. wher they haue no coulor , how they may peruert them . But yet I may not let this escape my fingars , that Cartwright , whether for his owne glory , or else that God would haue him to be the instrument of his owne shame , is well content , rather then he will want testimonies , to encounter with the authority of Bishops : to sort both himselfe & all his followers , in the number of those that euer since the Apostles times haue repined at that authority : & thereupon haue beene ouerruled by all the auncient F●thers and Councels , as busie bodies & Schismaticks . You shall heare his wordes , and then iudge whether I haue mistaken them . T. C. l. 2. p. 580 To what ende both in the Nicene councell , and in many other holden more then two hundred yeares after , are there found so manie canons , for the acknowledging of the authority of one Metropolitane in euery Province , for the honor which he should haue : the name he should be called by : for the place where hee should sit at their meetings : for the bounds of their circuit ? Doe not all these declare , that there were some which were ennemies to that authoritye , &c. To this I might adde his defence to Aerius , and his confutation of Epiphanius : not without some discredit to Sainct Augustine .

Lastlie , whatsoeuer is saide , or may be said hereafter , out of all the auncient Fathers and Histories , and out of all the generall Councels , concerning the saide gouernment of the Church , by Bishops , Archbishops , and Patriarches , of their institution , authority , title , circuites , and prerogatiues : Cartwright doth take vpon him ( most boldlie & most falsly ) to prescribe vnto vs , certain rules , how we must vnderstand them , or otherwise there is not one of them that will be allowed of . I blush in his behalfe ( I assure you ) to sette it downe , and am ashamed that anie man bearing the name of a Christian , shoulde deale so like an Impostor . But this it is ▪ That it maye appeare ( saith he ) what the Fathers and Councelles doe mean , when they giue more to the Bishop of anye one churche , then to the Elder of the same church , T. C. lib. 1. pag , 19.110 . and that no man bee deceaued by the name of Gouernour or ruler ouer the rest , to fancy any such authority and domination or Lordship , as wee see vsed in our church : it is to bee vnderstoode , that amongest the Pastors , Elders , and Deacons of euery particular church , and in the meetings and companies of the Ministers , or Elders of diuerse churches , there was one chosen by the voyces & suffrages of them al , or the most part which did propound the matters that were to be handled : whether they were difficulties to be soluted , or punishments & censures to be decreed vppon those that had faulted , or whether there were elections to be made , or what other matter so euer occasion was giuen to intreate off : the which also gathered the voyces & reasons of those which had interest to speake in such causes , which also did pronounce according to the number of the voyces which were giuen , which was also the mouth of the rest to admonish , or to comfort , or to rebuke sharply such as were to receaue admonishment , consolation , or rebuke , & which in a worde did moderate that whole action which was done for that time they were assembled &c. And must we thus vnderstande the Fathers & generall Councels ? Hee might as truely saie : that the present forme of our ecclesiasticall gouernment in England vnder her maiestie by Archbishops and Bishops ; is euen the very same manner of church-gouernment , that he & his followers looke for , & the right platform of those Elderships which haue so mightely bewitched them .

Men , that once haue passed the limits of modestie ; may afterwards saie & write , what they list . The ancient Fathers , haue deserued farre otherwise of the Church of Christ , then that , for the maintenaunce of such a forgery , as the pretended form of discipline is ; they shold be vsed after any such manner . I would wish all men , that are of this proud , & presumptuous humor , to peruse the books which S Augustine hath written against Iulianus the Pelagian . There they shall find the very same contemptuous spirit in Iulianus , that raigneth in themselues , & exalteth it selfe so greatly against the godly & learned fathers : as also on the other side , they shall there see , the fruites of Gods spirit : vz. in what reuerend account , & verie high estimation S. Augustine had such worthy & holy men by name , as here you haue heard very contumeliously disgraced , August . contra Pelag. L. 2. c. 4. childishly neglected , disdaynfully contemned , and most proudlie reiected . Ita intellexit Ambrosius , ita Cyprianus , ita Gregorius &c. So Ambrose vnderstood ( such a place of the scriptures ) : So Cyprian , so Gregory , &c. did carry some weight in S. Augustines opinion . Those things which diuerse notable men , haue alledged out of the auncient Fathers , for the iustification of the present ecclesiasticall gouernment in the church of England ; ought not so lightly to bee regarded with euery princox . What the Fathers haue written that agreeth not with our Phantasticall giddye headed fellowes pleasures , they write it not of parciality , either to grieue them , or to gratifie vs : but as trueth led them . Quod inuenerunt in ecclesia , tenerunt : quod didicerunt , docuerunt : Ibidem ca : 10. quod a patribus acceperunt , hoc filiis tradiderunt : that which they found in the church ( saith Augustine ) they held : that which they had learned , they taught : that which they had receaued of theyr fathers , they deliuered to theyr children .

Though Cartwright & his companie do carrie so base a conceit of those times , wherein the auncient fathers liued : yet the Fathers themselues did not so thinke of them . Iulianus the heriticke did speake ( as it seemeth ) insuch a scornfull sorte of them , as our Sectaries do . But S. Augustine laieth it to his reproch , as an apparant argument of his great folly & presumption : Ibidem cap. 10 thinking it a most absurd point for him so to vse them . Vsque adeò permiscuit imis summa longus dies &c. hath time so confounded all things ( saith Augustine ) ? is darknes growen to bee such light , and is light it selfe turned into such darknes , vt videant Pelagius , Celestinus , Iulianus , et caeci sunt Hilarius , Cpyrianus , Ambrosius ? that Pelagius , Celestin●s , and Iulianus can see , and Hilary , Cyprian , and Ambrose are become blind ? And surely I do not perceaue , why I may not without offence , applie the same wordes to those men in these daies , which treade in the saide fellowes steppes , concerning this their contempt & pride . Were there neuer learned men ; before you were taught the principles of the Geneua discipline ? was wisdom dead till you were borne ? Doe you know what was in the Apostles times , better then they did , who succeeded the Apostles ? were the auncient Fathers able to defende the greatest misteries of our saluation , against so many pestilent heretiques , and were they ignorant in the matters of the externall gouernment of the church ? Knew they the distinction of the three persons in the blessed Trinitie , & could they not find what difference Christ allowed off , to be continued in his Church , betwixt a Bishop and a priest ? Is the darknes which pride carieth with it , growen to be so light : and is the light that shewed it selfe so many waies in the ancient fathers ( as in their singular learning & great humilitie ) become such darknes ; that Cartwright , Trauerse , Fenner , and such like , ( but the shadows of learned men in respect ) should be thought so clearly sighted ? & shall Ireneus , Tertullian , Cyprian , Ambrose , Hierome , Chrysostome , Augustine , Gregory , Hilarye , and all the rest of those worthie men be reckoned blind ? Surely he is a bussard that thinketh so . And therefore I will conclude this chapter with another saying of S. Augustines , against such busie innouators , as you are : oportet vt populi christiani vestris prophanis nouitatibus anteponant &c. Ibidem cap. 1 It is meet that all christian people should preferre the auncient fathers , before your nouelties , eisque potius adherere quàm vobis : & rather sticke fast to their iudgements , then to runne after your phansies .

CHAP. XXVIII . Theyr dealing with all the new writers , and many reformed churches when they make against them .

THis is a grounde layde downe by Cartwright : T.C. lib. 1. p. 7. that few men that are of any stayde or sounder iudgement in the scriptures , and haue seene or read of the gouernment and order of other churches , are against them in such matters , as they haue broched vnto vs . And agreablie to this ground his answeres are framed , when any thing is vrged against him , out of anie of the new writers , except Caluin , and BeZa . If either of them do happen to crosse him : it is strange to see how he doubleth & shifteth . As for any other , they are but a puffe with him : hee careth not greatly howe hee handleth them .

D.W. Pellicane , Bucer , Bullinger , Illyricus , and Musculus , affirming with all the auncient Fathers , that Timothye was Bishop of Ephesus : what then ( sayth Cartwright ) If they were for one , a hundred , they could not beare downe the Apostle . T.C. li. 2. p. 313 T.C. li. 2. p , 114 As though they hadde euer ment it . Luther expoundinge a place of Zacharie contrarie to his liking : his exposition ( sayth Cartwright ) is out of season . Musculus affirmeth that the places 20. of Sainct Mathew , 10. of sainct Marke , and 22. of sainct Luke : vos autem non sic : doe not condemne Superioritie , but an ambitious desire , and tyrannicall vsage of it : but Caluin as learned as hee ( sayth Cartwright ) is of my iudgement . T.C. li. 1. pa. 23 Bucer , holdeth that the sayde 20. of Mathew doth propound a generall rule to all magistrats and christians . Where Cartwrights extenuating the authoritie of man , T. C lib 2● pag. 423. braueth out Bucer with this : that his iudgment hath counterpoise of other as learned .

Whereas , Peter Martyr , Bullinger , and Gualter , do bring diuerse reasons for the lawfull vse of the surplise , and such other apparrell , as is appointed with vs for Ministers : Cartwright is so farre from being moued with their authoritie , T.C. lib. 1. p. 74 as that he aduentureth to confute their said reasons after his manner , very sophistically : affirming in effect ( but falsely ) that either they vnderstoode not auncient fathers , alleadged by them for that purpose : or that they peruerted their meaning . Bishop Ridly , and Maister Bucer , approouing that where there are no preachers , there should bee godly learned homilies read in those Churches : Cartwright thus dismisseth Bishop Ridley : being a partie in this cause , T : C. lib. 2. pag. 392. hee ought to be no witnesse . And for Maister Bucers wordes , he saith , they are not to be weighed : insinuating that his booke concerning his iudgement in king Edwardes daies vppon the communion booke is counterfeited . T.C. lib. 1. pa. Againe , of maister Bucer for his allowing of priuate baptisme , and of the signe of the Crosse : likewise of the ring in marriage , and that the parties married should receiue the communion : he saith , Bucer hath other grosse absurdities : T.C. lib. 1. pa. to this authoritie I could oppose other men of as great authoritie : sometimes Homer sleepeth : his reasons are verie ridiculous , T C. lib. 1. pag. 199. verie slender and colde , and sauour not of the learning and sharpnesse of the iudgement of maister Bucer .

Maister Fox in like sorte setting downe his full approbation , To. 1 pag. 20. of the present state ecclesiasticall : that Archbishops should be in degree aboue Bishops , and Bishops in degree aboue other Ministers : and relying for this his iudgement partly vpon the scriptures , and partly vppon the primatiue Church : and concluding , that this is to keepe an order duely and truely in the Church , according to the true nature and definition of order by the authoritie of Augustine : T.C. lib. 1. pag. 117. he is ( I say ) thus censured : Maister Fox writing a storie , doth take greater paine , and looketh more diligently to declare what is done , and in what time , and by whome , then howe iustly or vniustly , how conueniently or inconueniently it is done , &c.

Bishop Iewell ( a man to bee accompted of , as his name doth importe , and so esteemed not onely heere in England , but with all the learned men beyond the seas , that euer knewe him or sawe his writinges , ) vppon occasion offered to shewe his opinion , concerning one of Cartwrightes propositions : vz: that both the names , and the offices of Archbishops and Archdeacons , are to be abolished , ) he presumed ( forsooth ) vpon the base authoritie of all antiquitie , the auncient fathers , the generall Councels , and ecclesiasticall histories , to call it in the margent of his aunswere , nouitiorum assertio , a newe assertion , or an assertion of yonglinges : and in the end , after hee hath briefly surueied the strength of Cartwrightes great bulwarke , hee concludeth in this sort .

As for these reasons , in my iudgement , they are not made to builde vp , and they are too weake to pull downe , &c. stultitia nata est in corde pueri , & virga disciplinae fugabit eam : It is but wantonnesse , correction will helpe it . Whereupon incommeth Cartwright , as hote as a toste , and skorning , ( ye may be sure ) to haue such a mayne Article of the new beliefe to be tearmed , nouitiorum assertio , hee calleth these wordes , T. C lib 1. pag. 118. biting and sharpe : and for his further entrance to confute the Bishops reasons , why hee misliked the sayd proposition , he nayleth as it were vpon his toombe , this shamefull , and moste slaunderous inscription : Bishop Iewell calleth the doctrine of the Gospell wantonnesse . Marke the mans forehead : howe it is hardened . The Papist that saide hee recanted all his writinges against the Pope : was not more impudent . Hee calleth their riotous opening of their mouthes against those thinges they either knowe not , or which otherwise they depraue moste maliciously agaynst their own consciences , ( as it is to be feared , ) hee calleth ( I say ) these and suche like dealinges wantonnesse : and not the doctrine of the Gospell .

Generally thus he writeth of those most learned men , and manie of them godly Martirs , who were the chiefe penners and approouers of the communion booke , in king Edwardes time , and offered to defend euerie point of it in Queene Maryes dayes , against all the Papistes liuing : their knowledge ( saith Cartwright ) was in part , and although they brought manie thinges to our light , T.C. lib. 1. pag. 196. yet they being sent out in the morning , or euer the sonne of the Gospell was risen so high might ouersee manie thinges , which those that are not so sharpe of sight as they were may see , for because that which they want in the sharpenesse of sight , they haue by the benefite and clearenesse of the sunne , and the light . Excellent childe of light , whose knowledge is not in part . And oh worthie Discipline , of the Consistorian Synagogues : howe clearely shee carrieth all her implementes with her .

Let a man cast downe his head , but for a day , like a bulrush , and giue a grone or two in the behalfe of that kingdome : and by and by he is snatched vp aboue the man in the moone , and may passe amongest them for an illuminated Elder . But it would bee knowen what mysteries haue beene reuealed , eyther by him or anie of his : that were vnknowen to those blessed men . Surely I know of none : except it bee that their Elderships are newly thrust into their Consistoriall beliefe . A point ( I confesse ) whereof those godly men were ignoraunt . Otherwise they were well inough acquainted with these quarrels . They had weighed them , and finding them too light , reiected them . They had skill to discerne of such vnbrideled spirites : and in their dayes greatly pittied them . In a worde to speake my opinion : they were in deede golde , if they be compared to Cartwright , and suche lyke drosse : who haue little in them , more then ordinarie men , but onely paynted colours , and Sophisticall shewes .

Many other particulars of such their dealinges with the newe writers , might bee layd downe before you . But these to my purpose , are I knowe sufficient : and therefore I will come to their boldnesse and presumption against not this man or that man , but euen whole reformed Churches . And although I finde some more temperate and modest heerein then others : yet when the freeholde of their Elderships is touched , they are all like to themselues .

The Geneuians , in their Annotations vppon their harmony of confessions , are well content that euery Church shall vse their libertie , as they shall thinke it most expedient , in these pointes following : vz: the reading of the Epistles a a Sect. 1. obs. 1. ad conf. Boh. and Gospels vppon sondayes and holy dayes , so as other partes of the Scriptures doe not thereby growe into contempt : Kneeling b b Sect. 14. ob. 4. ad con. Bo. at the communion : the c c Sect. 14 ob. 2. ad con. Au. vse of all such ordinarie ceremonies at the celebration of the Communion , as nowe are vsed among the Lutherans , Copes , singing Organs &c. and were vsed before by the papistes at their masses : the d d Sect. 15. ob. 1. ad con. Wir. dispensation of the communion to those that be sicke at home in their houses : Ember e e Sect. 16. ob. 1. ad con. Bo. dayes and holy dayes consecrated to the godly memorye of the saintes : The singinge of f f Sect. 16. obs. 2. ad con. Bo. Christian hymnes and songes vppon the saide holy dayes , made to set out the glory of god , in respecte of the great good workes it pleased him to worke by them : The vse of funerall g g Sect. 16 ob. 1. ad con. wir . sermons : and the imposition h h Sect. 13. obs. 2. ad con. Bo. of handes vppon children , that canne say their Catechisme , which wee call Confirmation . In all these things ( I say ) they leaue euery Church to their liberty : so as other churches , that vse them not , bee not thereby praeiudiced . But when any confession doth approoue i i Sect. 17. obs. 1.2.3 . ad con . August . the calling of Bishops ; yealding vnto them all lawfull obedience ( if they will not force vppon men their vngodly traditions as of chastitie &c. ) or when their Aldermen or Consistories are impeached : then they looke about them : it is a nayle in a wound : they censure : they reiecte : they wrest and peruert , euery thinge at their pleasure , as partly I haue shewed in the ende of the Chapter : and as any man may further see that will take the paines to viewe those obseruations .

Which manner and cariage of themselues : I perswade my selfe no wise man will like of . For besides their corrupt dealinge , it is too Pope-like , to take so much vppon them , as there they doe . What a vanity is this , to say of other Churches ; wee allowe this , and that ; if it bee thus and thus vnderstoode : otherwise wee cannot like of it : wee thinke it vnlawfull , wee cannot disgest it ? And yet I cannot blame them so much ; as I doe our owne domesticall counterfeites . They are in possession of a gouernement : and woulde bee therefore loth to loose it . They got it hardly , and doe feare euery thinge , that maketh against it . I am perswaded if they might bee sure to keepe it still : they would be content to graunt ( of their owne goodnesse ) great liberty to all Churches in their owne matters . Whereas our make-bates , what furious and outragious courses haue they taken , against the Church of England ; for the vse of those thinges , which nowe the Geneuians allowe of ? And besides , concerning their pretended discipline : they will needes hold it before they haue it : and doe shewe allready as much or more contempt of those Churches , that dislike it , and are as sawcy with them : as any that I do know or heare of , except it be their disciples Barrow and his companions .

It hath pleased , that light headed ▪ cockbraine , that presumed to write a petition of late as vnto her Maiestie : and afterward like a seditious and vnduetiful person published the same to the people in printe ( for what cause let wise men consider ) : Polit. pag. 13. amongest many other doultish vntruthes to affirme this ; vz. that the Churches of Zuricke , Berne , Shaffhusen , S. Galls , Rethia , Mylliane , Bieuna , Polonie , and Hungaria , haue commended ( by their subscription to the second Heluetian confession ) the gouernement of the Church by Elders , to be vsed in all Churches for euer . But let the whole confession bee viewed , and although I doubt not but that there was as much cunning vsed by the Geneuians about that subscription as might be ; yet is there not one word in it , that tendeth that way .

In that confession there are but two markes of the Church set downe : the thirde after the Geneua computation , is leste out . In the Chapter of the ministers of the Church : they are all of them as many : as are there named , reckoned for ministers of the worde and sacramentes . That which is there , and might in any sorte be wrested to that purpose is this . And seeing there must needs be discipline in the Church , Conf. Helu . and in times past ( apud veteres ) excommunnication was vsed , and there were ecclesiasticall iudgementes in the people of god , in the which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly menne : it shall also bee the ministers part , to moderate this discipline , as it may edifie according to the condition of times , and the publique states , and as it shall bee necessarye . Which wordes are so farre from commendinge the perpetuall vse of the Geneua Eldershippe : that in mine opinion they are quite against it . For thus they say : First that there must bee discipline , which no man denyeth : secondly that excommunication was vsed in the times of the auncient fathers ; this also is confessed : thirdly that amongest the Iewes there were ecclesiasticall courts , in which this discipline was exercised by wise and godly menne ( who for anye thinge that is here sayde , might bee , of the tribe of Leui , and all of them priestes ) : and fourthly that it belongeth to the ministers to moderate this Discipline ( that is ) to vse it , or not to vse it , as times , states , and necessitye shall require .

And that this my interpretation of this fourth pointe must needes bee the meaning of the Heluetian confession : it appeareth hereby : in that this forme of gouernement , ( which the petitioner speakeh of ) is not in anye Church in all Heluetia for ought I haue heard . They haue no such Aldermen : they haue no vse of theyr excommuncation . And hauing beene manye dayes solicited , to haue receiued it : for the better , reputation of Geneua , theyr aunswere hath euer beene : that euery Church is to haue an especiall eye to this pointe , what will most edifye : and that for-asmuch as they haue founde the terpretation of the Scriptures , which hath beene since the Apostles times . Defence of Ecclesiasticall discip . pa. 86. The notablest instrument : None euer like him ? Maister Trauerse ( I think ) : will not indure that . For he is resolute in Maister Bezaes behalfe : saying : Maister Beza is the best interpreter of the new Testament . There was one in Basile , who gaue it out after a glorious manner : that he did attribute , Caluin . Farello pa. 412. non minus Farello quam Paulo : no lesse to Farellus then he did to Paule . Which maister Caluin misliked .

Beza . Epist 12 The letter , which Beza writ vnto our English disciplinaries , whereupon they were to build their consciences , is kept I perceiue by the Register as a relique at home in Regist. pa. 30. their houses .

In the scurrilous libell , which the brethren doe tear me the practise of prelates , Practise of Prelates D. 2 . I finde these wordes . Maister Caluin , Beza , Viret , &c. Knox , Cartwright , and such like , &c. are the onely worthies in the worlde , that haue maintained Discipline . Worthies ? A trifling commendation . He was a verie notable man in his time : that saide , mediocria firma . And might no meaner a dignitie serue these men : but needes they must be Worthies ? They should haue called them stupor mundi : the astonishment of the world .

There is much written of the Popes of Rome by their Parasites : as that they haue a diuine iudgement , and cannot erre , &c. and you shall see that within a while ( if the world hold thus on , ) the Consistoriall humoristes may chaunce to come neere them : euen in this their so grosse and palpable folly . Epist. ad mise . Zanchius telleth a notable historie . When he came newly out of Italy to Geneua , Caluin and Viretus preached ordinarily there at one certaine houre : the one in Saint Peters Church : the other in Saint Geruasins . Nowe there was a Frenchman , with whome hee grew into some acquaintance , that neuer missed Maister Caluins sermon : but woulde not once vouchsafe to heare Viretus .

Whereupon Zanchius demaunding of him the reason : why hee heard not the one sometimes aswell as the other : in haec ferme verbarespondet sed Gallice : St veniret S. Paulus qui eadem hor● concionaretur , qua & Caluinus : ego relicto Paulo audirem Caluinum : the Frenchman aunswered plainly in these very wordes almost , but in French : If Saint Paule should come to Geneua , and should preach the same houre that Caluin did , I would leaue Paule , and goe to heare Caluin .

It is also written of Alexander the third , that treading vpon the necke of the noble Emperour Fredericke the first ; Carion . Nauclerus . hee applied vnto himselfe and that action , these wordes of the Psalme spoken of Christ : Thou shalt walke vppon the venemous Aspe and Basiliske : Psal. 118. thou shalt tread downe the Lyon and Dragon . And see what was written in a letter to maister Caluin , by one Iacobus Bernardus from Geneua : which letter Caluin thought meete to be kept in store , and Beza to publish it in print . Maister Caluin being bannished from Geneua , by the procurement of the Ministers especially that disliked his proceedinges : there was great meanes made for his returne thither again . So as after some two or three yeares absence thence , it was agreed in the City , that hee should be restored to his former place , as you haue heard before . Quod cum intellexissem , non potui non laudare Deum , aliterque iudicare , quam quód a Deo factum istud , & esset mirabile in oculis nostris , quodque lapis quem reprobarant aedificantes , Math. 21 ▪ Marc. 12. Luke 20. Rom. 9. 1. Pet. 2. in caput fieret anguli : which thing , ( saith the said Bernardus to Caluin ) when I vnderstood , I could not but praise God , nor otherwise iudge , then that it was the Lordes dooing and was maruilous in our eyes , and that the stone which the builders had refused shoulde bee made the heade of the corner . Which wordes are onely applied in the newe Testament by the Apostles and Euangilests to our sauiour Christe : & were in my iudgment as blasphemously applied to Caluin , as the other were by the Pope to him-selfe

But I will leaue these immodrate and forraine dotages : & specifie vnto you some of our domesticall . I confesse to you ( saith the displayer of men in their colloures ) I reuerence D. Page . 37. Fulke : and no disparagement vnto any , I thinke him vniuersally as well learned as euer Caluin or Beza was . And in an other place : Page . 34. Put it to the censure of D. Fulke , D. Whittakers , Page . 37. Maister Cartwright &c. Men I hope as well able to iudge : as all the L. Bishops in christendome . Againe : No question , but Caluin and Beza are wide sometimes . Also afterwarde . The verie ornaments of your vniuersitie indeede , Page . 87. whose verie names and liues doe carry with them aestimation to bee reuerenced : D. Fulke : D. Goade : D. Whittakars : to these men I appeale . And furthermore . If wee should once or twise and vse it not , Page . 112. set D. Fulkes learned iudgement against the bare authoritie of Caluin and Beza in this case , I doe not see that it be any great preiudice or disparagement vnto any . Diuerse other such like speeches there are in that booke , whereby a man may see , how the brethren are affected vnto their parte-takers . Although he nameth some , who will neuer thanke him for it , and I supose hee hath done them great iniurie , in making them to seeme the patrones of such fancies , as there are mainetained .

I made mention before of Cartwrights place , amongst certaine disciplinary worthies . But my meaninge is not so to passe him ouer , whom all the rest of our men doe soe admire . His authoritie in deede is very great , as being in effecte the Patriarche of them all . Those thinges that he writeth , are almost oracles . Happye is the brother : that canne come in his companie . If hee bee in prison , prayers are made for his deliueraunce : if hee bee deliuered , great thankes are publickely giuen vnto god for the same . If hee commaund , the rest obey : if hee shall relent ; I thinke they will all relent . When great matters are to bee handled : he must needs be one in euery place : Couentry , Cambrdige , London , &c. And vppon any new accidents : the occurrents are caried to him , as to their chiefest counsaylor .

Salute our a a Chap. to F. 1585. most reuerent brother maister Cartwright , for whome prayers are made with vs .

As soone as I b b M. R. to F. knowe of maister Cartwrightes deliuery , I sent for maister Trauers , and we had psalmes of thankesgiuing & prayers to the same purpose and a sermon : his text being the 20 of Ieremie . 10.11.12.13.14 . verses .

I percciue by those c c Wake to F. 1587. imperfect writinges of maister Cartwrightes and others , that the pointes of reformation are at large and particularly debated .

Wee want d d Gelli . 10 ▪ , F. 1586. bookes , whereby wee may come to the knowledge of the truth . I meane T. C. bookes .

The forme of e e Fen. against Bridges . 120. gouernment set down by T. C. is commanded by god .

I thanke god f f Far. to Lit. 1586. I haue satisfied in part my longing , with conference with M. Cartwright : of whom I thinke : as she did of Solomon

I would g g Gellibr . to Field . gladly knowe when I might come ( from Oxford to London ) to see T.C.

Maister Snape , Snape to Bar. bon 1590. vpon one of his examinations before her Maiesties Commissioners in causes ecclesiastical , findinge some matters to haue bene further disclosed , then he looked for : presently directed his letters thereof , into the countrey , mouing his frend , that maister Cartwright might be aduertised . It were good ( saith he ) you sent to T.C. with speed .

I would gladly heare whether T. C. did councell you , or demaund councell of you . Hart to Field . I wish the matter maye bee well and closly handled . For I heare some whispering allready ( yet among them that fauour the cause ) that he hath councelled the brethren rather to vse those corruptions , then to leaue their charges . I wish and hope it be not so : not onely least men should iudge the man to be inconstant , but especially for that these times be such , that in them such yealding will doe no good .

Maister D. Bridges hauing occasion in his writinges to name Maister Cartwright : did forget to carry this word M. vnder his girdle : but called him plainly Cartwright . Wherat see how maister Trauerse repineth . Trauers def. pag 32. Wee acknowledge and reuerence maister Cartwright , as his rare guiftes of knowledge & zeale & his learned works , & constant suffering in this cause , and at this time his continuall trauell in preaching the Gospell , doe worthely deserue : for which cause hee was worthy other respect , then the replier here doth giue him . If hee would needes set downe his name , hee shoulde haue considered the example of the Apostle , who yet seldome or neuer mentioneth any minister of the Gospell by name , yea scarse anye professor , without some good marke of the grace of god in them . But this and a great deale more , both hee , and whosoeuer shall serue god , as they ought , in this cause of the further reformation of the Church , must account to endure of them , that oppose themselues to this most necessary seruice . I had lately some speach with Maister Cartwright concerning our next meeting , who aduised me to put you in mind of some thinges , Lord to Fen. ●589 . &c. Hee saith that at your late being together at Wroxall , you determined our nexte meetinge to bee at Warwicke at the quarter Sessions that twesday , for the humbling of our selues : and the day following to consult of other matters . His request is , that you will giue notice thereof vnto the brethren of our conference , and also that by your meanes , there may bee some of vs appointed to exercise in priuate that day . If this his request connot conueniently bee performed , then I take it necessary thot you write so with some speede to M. Cartwright , that hee may prouide a remedie else where .

M. May and I ridde with M. Cartwright to M. Throgmortons , two miles out of Warwicke ; where hee preached : more he sayde then euer he did in his life before &c. Farmer to Little . 1586. On tuesday M. Cartwright kept M. Fens lecture : text psalme 122. 4. vnto the ende : takinge thrones as Tremellius doth , and vrginge the discipline , the want wherof hee affirmed to bee the cause , that some friendes forsooke our church , and enemies ( as Papistes , ) would not come neere her . C. Garton to Field .

I pray you remember to reserue for mee one of the rare birds bookes his name may bee right Cartwright . God bee praised though hee cannot speake vnto vs , yet accordinge to his name hee doth write . He is a worthy wight .

Sicut discipuli olim presto habuerunt ipsum Dominum : M. Cholm . to Field 1582. ita magistrum Cartwrightum dominum meum habeo presentem . as the disciples in times past had the Lord himselfe amongst them , so I haue M. Cartwright , my Lord in presence with me .

And thus hetherto of these poore simple ; but yet most palpable parasites . The disciplinarie crue , a company of Apostles : and Cartwright their Christe . Christe amongste his Apostles , and Cartwright amongst his Disciples . If Cartwright and such other guides were not supposed by their followers to bee very notable Thrasoes , is it possible that any man of common sence , would shewe themselues to bee such flattering Gnathoes ? And these are the menne ( for-sooth ) that in all their speeches will pretende scriptures . But when they haue so done , tell them , that they peruerte the scriptures to serue their turnes : and that thus , and thus , they must vnderstand them according to the iudgement of all the auncient fathers : their aunswere in effecte is this . What tell you vs of the auncient fathers ? Caluin and Beza , are the beste expounders of the scriptures . Maister Cartwright is a rare birde , a worthy wight , and as it were , Christ himselfe amongest his Apostles . They haue taught vs as wee teach : they are our fathers , who haue begotten in vs a loue and a likinge of the Geneua Discipline , and them will wee followe . In truth it is pitifull to consider : vnto what a height of pride many men are growen . It is lesse subiecte to offence , to reiect the authoritie of Saint Ierome , Saint Augustine , or anye of the rest : nay to refuse them alltogether ; then to reiecte the iudgementes eyther of Caluin , of Beza or of Cartwright .

For Maister Caluin and maister Beza , I , doe thinke of them , and of their writinges , as they deserue . But yet I thinke better of the auncient fathers : I must confesse it . And for maister Cartwright , it is true , that hee hath many good partes in him : but the ouer-weening which he hath of himselfe , and which many besides haue of him , is like a lumpe of dowe , that sowereth both him and them all . You haue heard of what accounte , his writinges are with his sectaries : insomuch that one of them saith in effecte both for himselfe and for his brethren , that without Cartwrightes bookes they cannot come to the knowledge of the truth . Cartwrights bookes the way to the truth ? To speake my conscience : they are the waye to manye grosse errors , and seditious fancies . Of all his bookes I woulde thinke , that should beare the price , which containeth the iustification of all his deuises ; and is the last frutes of that Worthies wit : I meane his second reply . Touching the which booke , you shall heare maister Doctor Whitakers opinion : from whence , ( especially if some one or two ioyned with him ) , the layer out of men in colours ( as it hath been sayd ) will not hastily appeale . Thus hee writeth .

Quem Cartwrightus nuper emisit libellum , eius magnam partem perlegi . Ne viuam si quid vnquam viderim dissolutius , ac penè puerilius . Verborum satis ille quidem lautam ac nouam supellectilem habet , rerum omnino nullam , quantum ego iudicare possum . Deinde non modo peruersè de principis in rebus sacris at que ecclesiasticis authoritate sentit : sed in papistarum etiam castra transfugit : a quibus tamen videri vult odio capitali dissidere . Verum nec in hac causa ferendus , & alijs etiam in partibus tela a papistis mutuatur . Denique vt de Ambrosio dixit Hieronimus , verbis ludit , sententijs dormitat : & plane indignus est , qui a quopiam docto resutetur .

That is , I haue read a great part of that booke which maister Cartwright , hath lately published : vz: ( this second reply ) : I pray God I liue not , if euer I saw any thing more loosely written and almost more childishly . It is true that for wordes , hee hath great store , and those both fine and new : but for matter , as farre as I can iudge , he is altogether barren . Moreouer he doth not onely thinke peruersly of the authoritie of Princes , in causes ecclesiasticall , but also flyeth into the Papistes holdes , from whome he would be thought to dissent with a mortall hatred . But in this point he is not to be endured : and in other partes also hee borroweth his argumentes from the Papistes . To conclude , as Ierome said of Ambrose : hee playeth with wordes , and is lame in his sentences : and is altogether vnworthy to bee confuted by anie man of learning . If anie shall heere obiect that maister Whittakers was not Doctor , when hee writ in this sorte : My aunswere is this . Hee writ this letter about the same time , that he beganne to write against Campian : when hè had attained alreadie vnto suche ripenesse of iudgement , as there is no more daunger hee should nowe be altered in this that hee hath written of Cartwrightes booke : then that he should alter heereafter from that trueth which he maintained about the same time against Campian .

And it is true : that hee neuer gaue a righter censure of anie booke in his life . Maister Cartwright must content himselfe with it : and so must his followers . He dependeth himselfe too much vppon Caluin and Beza : and so do many amongest vs vppon him . Such admiration of mens persons , and of their learning : must needes be very dangerous . It hath euer been the cause of schisme . And there was neuer more mischiefe like to grow of it : then there is now . For I know not how it commeth about : but you shall seldome finde any ; who hath once tasted of the Disciplinary potion , that is not forthwith possessed ( as it were ) with a wonderfull opinion , not onely of the chiefe confectioners and fauourers of it , but likewise of themselues . And for all other men , Fathers , Councels , newe or olde , they little esteeme them ; if they make any thing against them . I might heape vp in this place a number of obseruations , which haue been made many hundreth yeares since , as concerning suche like courses taken by many : and howe they neuer gat to themselues any true reputation thereby , but the contrary . But I will spare them therein . Onely , I cannot choose but tell them , that the auncient fathers were as wise and learned men , as they are : that the olde generall Councelles ought to be of as great credite with any but madde men , as their conuenticles or Synodes : that although wee ought to depend onely vpon the worde of God : yet for the interpretation of it , we may as safely follow the iudgementes of the auncient fathers , of the first generall Councels , and of some other learned men : as of any of their chiefe patrones and maisters : that howsoeuer our owne men doe thinke of themselues , yet they are no better then other men : Nay there are many equall to the best of them , and many who are farre their superiours . And I take it , that he sheweth himselfe to be their best friendes , who by telling them their wantes , can bring them to some humilitie . In which respect Maister Cartwright is to thanke Doctor Whittakers for signifiyng his iudgement , touching that his great bundell of shreddes : which some rashe , and fond men doe so greatly admire . It is most certaine that although the flattering of Parasites , doth seeme to bee pleasant : yet the woundes of a louer are much more profitable .

CHAP. XXX . How falsly they alleadge the auncient fathers , for their pretended parish Bishops and Elders .

BY that which hath been said in the 5. chapter ; it appeareth vnto you , what litle help , they are to look for , in the ancient fathers : toward the setting forth of the Geneua plat forme . They talke of certaine steps & traces of that hare in them : but more they confesse in some places , that they cannot find . And yet notwithstanding at another time , and when they haue forgotten themselues ; they will of purpose ( I feare it ) to abuse the worlde stand very much vppon the auncient fathers , and bragge of their authoritie exceedingly . As Cartwright doth in these words most vntruly : We propound nothing ( saith he ) that the scriptures doe not teach : the writers both olde and newe , for the most part affirme , and the examples of the primitiue Churches confirme . T.C. lib. 1. pag 7. Did euer any manne regard Cartwrightes credite ? who ( considering what hath beene noted out of his bookes in this whole processe ) doeth not pittie him , with all his harte , to heare him so farre to forget himselfe ? Hee is a manne of good learning , which maketh mee to woonder at him . It is surely great pittie that euer hee was so maried vnto his Eldershippe . For , it hath vtterly ouerthrowne all the good partes that bee in him . The best lawyer that is , when hee giueth himselfe to shiftes and to feed his clyentes with quirkes , refusing not to brabble in anye cause , be it neuer so false : he looseth his estimation , and with the grauer sort is little regarded .

Howe truely Maister Cartwright affirmeth : that he and his fellows do propound nothing but that the old writers , for the most parte doe affirme , and the examples of the primitiue church confirme : I trust it hath in part already appeared vnto you in sundry places , but especially in the 5. as I saide , and in the 27. Chapters . I haue heard some Councellers at lawe , vse the verye like course of speach : when notwithstanding the cause hath falne out most directly against them , yet they haue cried out : Oh my Lord , wee haue these and these olde euidences to shewe , such and such depositions doe make for vs verye manifestly : wee haue yet many witnesses to bee examined , and thus they will proceed with many cracking wordes : as though there had beene nothing which had made against them . Is Cartwright able ( trowe you ) to finde his Parish Bishops and his counterfeit Lay-Elders , ( which two pointes are in effecte all in all with him ) in the auncient fathers and primitiue Church ▪ T.C. lib. 3. pag 42.45 . Hee maye say as truely : that the Sonne shines at midnight . But yet hee sayth ; that Ignatius and Cyprians Bishops , were but as our pastors or parsons arein euery parish . For his vnministering Elders , hee alledgeth the same Ignatius and Cyprian : and for a surcharge , hee bringeth in also Tertullian , Hierome , Possidonius , T.C. li. 1. p. 113.100.99 . and Socrates : where they make mention of priests . I was once purposed to haue set downe the places themselues , which they so violently peruerte , to bolster out such theyr apparaunt falshood : and to haue aunswered them . But then I remembred howe effectually that had beene done allready by diuers learned and woorthie menne : and of late more fully and largely by two especiall persons , whose books one of them is in printing , and the other presently comming to the presse : and therevpon I altered my mind in that point . And yet something thereof agreeably to the course which hetherto I haue obserued , that may peraduenture amaze some of them .

Vppon some occasion falling out : maister Cartwright affirmeth , T.C. lib. pag 183. that if the now Lord Arch-bishop of Canterbury had read the ecclesiasticall stories , hee shoulde haue founde easiely the Eldership most florishing in Constantines time : vz. in hauing then such Bishops and Elders as hee fancieth to himselfe . For he must bee so vnderstood . D.W. pag 652. To whome replie being made , that he should bring but one ecclesiasticall historie , that affirmed so much : after some three or fower yeares , hee brought two : vz. the historie of Magdeburge , and Eusebius . His testimony out of the first he setteth down in these words . The centuries must needes haue told him , that the same orders and functions of the church were in that time which were before . And what would he inferre hereof ? Surely if hemeane honestly , and doe not dally with the word ( before ) refering it further then the Centuries meant it , which was but to the age , that succeeded the Apostles , he could not haue directed a man , to any history now extant , that doth more directly confound his assertion . For there the authors of that history , doe most plainely affirme : that by and by after the Apostles death , necessitas coegit personarum gradus aliquos constituere et conseruare : Cent. 2 de gub. eccl. Chap. 7. necessity compelled ( the fathers then liuing ) to ordaine certaine degrees of persons in the church and to conserue them . This is most directly against Cartwrights assertion : although for mine own part ( to note it by the way ) I thinke the Apostles , knowing the necessitie mentioned , had taken that order before . But to follow the said historie . There were three degrees then ordained , say the said authors : vz. Episcopatus , presbyterium , Diaconatus : the degree , of Bishops , of priesthood , and of Deaconship . For the proofe whereof they cite Ignatius , Eusebius , Theodoret , &c. and the very place of S. Ierome : where he sheweth how for auoiding of schisme , one was chosen amongst the ministers , to haue preheminence ouer the rest , and to whome the name of Bishop was peculiarly then attributed . And as concerning the priests or Elders they doe shew it out of Eusebius , Nicephorus , Irenaeus , Iustine , &c. that their office was to preach the Gospell , and to administer the sacraments , &c. The Centuries thus we see ; will not serue M. Cartwrights turne , Ibid. to the iustifying of the florishing estate of his Eldership in Constantines daies . I wil therfore come vnto his sec̄od authority , which he bringeth out of Eusebius .

It is manifest ( saith he ) that the churches were gouerned vnder Constantine by Bishops , Elders , and Deacons : by that which is recited of an infinit number of Elders and Deacons , which came to the Councel of Nice with the 250. Bishops . It is manifest indeede . Euseb. lib. 1. de vit. Consta. And it is also as manifeste ; that there were at that time , both Archbishops and Patriarches . But there were at that Councel ; both Bishops Elders and Deacons . And what then ▪ I know that many men haue wrested many places , directly contrarie to the authors meaninge : but I doe not remember anie one place , within the compasse of my small readinge , that is more grosly peruerted then this place is . For M. Cartwright running still his old biace , would haue men to thinke , that by Bishops , Eusebius meant so many parishe-ministers , and by priests or Elders , his said counterfaite Aldermen . And his authoritie is so greate amongest his sectaries , ( who professe their Gleaninge after him , 1 Pag. R.B. sea . paos . 50. ) that what-so-euer he bringeth , they take it vpon his credit , and so runne on with a conceite , that not onely all other authorities , brought by him , out of the auntient Fathers mentioned , are truely by him expounded and applyed , but that also euen this place of Eusebius , is to bee vnderstood , as here he woulde haue it . Wherein surely they are much to blame , to depend so much vpon any mans credit . If they them-selues had euer read , either the Fathers , or the ecclesiasticall histories , they coulde neuer possibly , haue beene miscarried so palpably .

A frinde of mine hauinge some talke , not many yeares since , with Maister Cartwright , about this place of Eusebius alledged and expounded by him , as you haue heard : vrged him verie earnestly , that he woulde indeede , tell him truely ; whether hee ( beeinge a man of learninge , and so coulde not bee ignorant of Eusebius meaninge , ) did not sinne ; euen against his owne conscience , when he cited that place , to such an ende and purpose , as hee had done . His aunswere was , that hee did not : and that hee was still of the same minde therein , that hee was before . Why Sir , replyed my friende . As Eusebius sayeth : that there were an infinit number of Elders and Deacons , which came to the Councell of Nice , with the 250 Bishops : Socrat. lib. 1. cap. 8. So it is reported by Socrates , that in the sayde Councell , it had beene decreed by the Bishops &c. ( but for Paphnutius , ) that Bishops Elders & Deacons , shoulde haue companied no more with their wiues : Quas cum erant laiui in matrimonium duxissent , which they had married , when they were lay-menne . And now must wee expound Socrates in this place , as you doe expounde Eusebius ▪ doth Socrates meane by priestes there , your manner of lay Elders ? was the Councell bent , to haue debarred such men from their wiues ? Speake your conscience truely I pray you . Maister Cartwright aunswered againe : that hee verily thought in his conscience , that by priestes there , Socrates vnderstood the saide Elders , and that the Councell meant , to haue seperated them from their wiues . And this reason was : because within a while after there was some question , whether Subdeacons might marrie . My sayde friende replied againe , that hee was verie sory to heare his aunswere : and that he verily thought , the like interpretation of Socrates wordes , was neuer made before , nor would euer be made ( hee hoped , ) by anie after him . And so they parted .

Afterwardes my sayde friend , findinge that when hee told some persons of great place , how M. Cartwright did expounde the said words of Socrates , they would hardly beleeue him , but supposed rather that he had mistaken them : did write a letter vnto him , desiringe him most earnestly that if he c̄otinued in the same mind he left him , he would be content to returne vnto him , in writing , some further reasons thereof , then formerly he made at his being with him . Maister Cartwright hereupon , writ backe againe vnto my friend ( I haue his letter in my custodie ) excusing himselfe , that through want of bookes , he could not satisfie his expectation so fully as he would . But for the point , T.C. Lett. 18. Mart. 15.90 . I speake of , thus he writ . Touching that it seemeth strange vnto you , that the gouerning elders should haue bene in danger to haue bene forbidden mariage in the councell of Neece : I thought I had satisfied you , in alleaging , that not long after , there was great hold amongst the councels , whether Deacons , yea Subdeacons , should be married So as now , that which before stood only vpon the credit of the relator , is readie to be shewed vnder maister Cartwrights hand , as it hath alreadie bene to diuers of this disciplinarie disposition : who ( as I haue bene informed , and partly do know ) all of them , haue vtterly signified their great dislike of that point . And yet either he must of necessitie so interpret Socrates , or els be driuen to giue ouer Eusebius , and so both he and all his Aldermen , to take their leaue of the Ecclesiasticall histories , and bid them adieu .

But yet there is another thing in maister Cartwrights sayd letter , which is very fit for you to vnderstand , that so you may see how he foileth himselfe . One thing ( sayth hee vnto my sayd friend ) in your letter , I thinke you mistake me in : that you esteeme that I should hold a bishop and a minister of the word , all one , in the times of the Nicene councell . For notwithstanding that I hold , that in the Apostles time , and with S. Paule , it is all one to be a bishop and to be a minister of the word , yet it were a foule ignorance in me , if I should not haue knowne , that long before the councell of Neece , the name of bishop was for the most part appropriated to one in a church . C̄osider I pray you , how the man was mistaken ? If by elders , Eusebius should haue meant his counteirfet laie rulers , must he not then by his 250 bishops most necessarily haue meant so many parish ministers , pastors or parsons , except he will say that there was no such ministers there , which were as new a paradox as the rest . But how agreeth this ? of the difference he confesseth betwixt a bishop and a minister of the word , long before the councell of Neece , with some other of his sayings else-where in print , such as there are . T.C. l. 1. pa. 99. The bishop that Ignatius speaketh of , was but the minister of a particular congregation . Againe , Ciprians Bishop was nothing els , but S. Pauls bishop , that is one that had cure and charge of one flocke . T.C. l. 1. p. 100. Again , the bishop which S. Ciprian speaketh of , is nothing els , but such as we call pastor , or as the common name with vs is , Parson , and his church wherof he is bishop , is neither diocesse nor prouince , but a congregation which meet together in one place , and bee taught of one man .

Now ioine these things together , and see what a Gallimawfrie ye haue . May not a man misdoubt , that maister Cartwright is not yet resolued of his owne opinion ? Haue not his scholers great cause to reioyce in glaining after so constant an author ? What can he pretend to salue his credit withall ? Hee will neuer secke a refuge for shame out of these words , vz. For the most part . As though he should thus expound S. Ierome , where he saith , that when some began to hold of Peter , some vpon Paule , and some vpon Apollo ( which was as I take it , in the Apostles times ) it was then decreed throughout all the world , that for auoyding of schismes , one minister , who was called a bishop , should haue authoritie and iurisdiction ouer all other ministers in his diocesse , that is true ( should Cartwright say ) throughout all the world , except at Antioch and Carthage ( two little hamblets ) where Ignatius and S. Cyprian were but plaine parsons , euen like the parsons of Hitchin and Newington .

Not many yeares since a friend of mine was commanded for a certaine purpose , to contriue the cheese matters in controuersie about the pretended discipline , into certain questions . And it is pertinent to the matter I now speake of , to acquaint you with two of them . The first ( because of the pretence which is made , as you haue heard , of the ancient fathers ) was this . A Question Whether can it bee shewed out of any ancient father , out of any councell , either generall or prouinciall , or out of any ecclesiasticall historie , for the space of 1500 and od yeares , euen from the Apostles times , till of late , that in the ordinarie distribution of church-officers ( since that time euer vsed ) into Episcopos , Presbyteros , & diaconos , Bishops , priests , & deacons : whether can it ( I say ) be shewed , that this word Episcopus , that is , Bishop , was at any time taken there , and vsed by the churches in any countrie , for a common and vsuall name to all ministers of the word and sacraments , without , distinguishing thereby any one of them from another , or was : it not euer within the time limited taken and vsed only in the said distribution , for one amongst the ministers of the word and sacraments , that gouerned the rest both of the ministers and people within their circuits limited vnto them ?

This question with the rest was sent to maister doctor Raynolds in Oxford , to the intent he might returne his opinion of them , which he forbare at that time to do , in respect of certain other businesse that he had in hand . Howbeit , maister doctor Robinson , ( his especial & most familiar friend ) being acquainted , as it seemeth , with the sayd questions , hath written in this sort vpon another occasion , not dissenting therein , as I take it , from maister doctor Reynolds . D. Robins . answ. exhib . to the L. Archb. of Cant. I haue ( sayth he ) mainteined it in the pulpit , that the titles of honour which we giue to bishops , are no more repugnant to the word of God , then it is for vs to bee called wardens , presidents , prouosts of colleges . And in my iudgement , they may with as good conscience be gouernours of their diocesse , as we being ministers , may be gouernours of colleges of ministers . Neither do I thinke , that this was a late deuised policie . Revel 2.1 . For I am persuaded , that the angell of the church of Ephesus , to whom S. Iohn writeth , was one minister , set ouer the rest . For seeing there were many pastors there , why should S. Iohn write to the angell of the church of Ephesus , and not rather to the angels , if there had bene no difference amongst them ? Act. 20.17.28 . And if this presidencie had had that fault , which is reprooued in Diotrephes , as S. Ierome proueth , that the Iewes had not corrupted the originall text , before Christ his comming : Quod nunquam dominus & Apostoli , Ieromin . 6. cap. Esay . qui caetera crimina arguunt in Scribis & Phariseis , de hoc crimine quod erat maximum reticuissent : So I may say , neither would our sauiour , who by his seruant reproueth those disorders which he found in the seuen churches , haue passed ouer this great fault in silence . Therefore as Titus was left to reforme the churches , Tit. 1.6 . throughout the wbole Iland of Crete : so I am persuaded , that in other places , some of that order of pastors and teachers which is perpetuall in the church , euen in the time of the Apostles had a prelacie amongst their bretheren , and that this preheminencie is approoued by our sauiour . And if we come any lower though the word Episcopus , signifie that care which is required of all , & in scripture be applied to all , that haue charge of soules : yet I do not remember any one ecclesiasticall writer that I haue read , wherein that word doth not import a greater dignitie then is common to all ministers . Neither do I thinke that any old writer did vnder the name of Bishop , meane the pastor of euery parish . When the emperors were persecutors , we read of seueral elders , but neuer of more then one bishop at once in Rome : the like is to be sayd of other great cities , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Heb. 1● . 20. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 1. Pet. 5.4 . and the churches neere adioining . And to meet with that offence which is taken at the name of Archbishop , because that name is so appropriated to Christ in scripture , that it is no where giuen to any other . I take it that there is no substantiall difference betweene archbishop , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 1. Cor. 3.10 . and archbuilder . Either therfore the Apostle offended in taking too swelling a title , when hee called himselfe an archbuilder , or cheefe builder , or it must be graunted , that this title may in some degree be giuen to men without derogation to Christ .

And thus farre doctor Robinson , with whom if maister doctor Reinolds do agree , I see not whither the factioners will turne them : for ( as I take it ) they will not reiect his opinion . They haue bragged much of him indeed , and of his iudgement ( in sundrie of their writings ) as though he were wholy on their side : and that they held nothing , but he would iustifie it . Howbeit , they haue done him therin ( I doubt not ) exceeding great iniurie . For requitall wherof , I would wish him neuer to seeke any other reuenge , but to turne them to his booke against Hart , where hee hath written his mind , as touching this point now in hand .

In the Church of Ephesus ( sayth he ) though it had sundrie D. Rainol . pa. 535. elders and pastors , ( he vseth these two words in one signification , as by the sentence going before , it is manifest ) to guide it : yet amongst those sundrie , was there one cheefe , whom our sauiour calleth the angell of the church , Act. 20.17 Reuel. 2.1 . and writeth that to him , which by him the rest sh●uld ●now . And this is he , whom afterwards in the primitiue church , the Fathers called bishop . For , &c. the name of Bishop , common ( before ) to all elders and pastors of the church , was then by the vsuall language of the Fathers appropriated to him , who had the presidentship ouer elders . Cip. Epi. 13. Thus are certain elders reproued by Ciprian Bishop of Carthage , for receiuing to the communion , them , who had fallen in time of persecution , before the bishop had aduised of it , with them and others .

Here then you haue two for Oxford , touching the language of the ancient fathers , when they speake of bishops . Now you shal haue a Cambridge mans opinion , no moe but of one ( I tell you ) at this time : marry he shall be such a one as the brotherhood , if they bee of the painters mind before mentioned in the chapter , may well bee compared with the other two , seeing his iudgement is layd in equall ballance there , both with Caluins and Bezaes , and that without any disparagement vnto them , you know whom I mean , it is maister doctor Fulke , who in his confutation of the Rhemish notes vpon the new testament , writeth thus : Amongst the clergie for order and seemly gouernment , D. Fulk confut. Annot. Tit. 1. v. 5. there was alwaies one principall , to whom by long vse of the church , the name of Bishop , or superintendent hath bene applied : which roome , Titus exercised in Creta , Timothie in Ephesus , & others in other places . Therfore although in the scripture , a bishop and an elder is of one order and authoritie in preaching the word , and administration of the sacraments ( as Hierome doth often confesse ) yet in gouernment by ancient vse of speech , hee is onely called a Bishop , which is in the scriptures called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Ro. 12. 8. 1. Tim. 5. 17. Heb. 13.17 . that is , cheefe in gouernment , to whom the ordination or consecration by imposition of bands , was alwaies principally committed , &c. Which most ancient forme of gouernment , when Adrius would take away , it was noted amongst his other errors . Hitherto doctor Fulke , so as hereby I trust it may appeare to maister Cartwrights reproch , and to all their shames that shall pretend any authoritie from the ancient fathers , to impugne the right honorable & lawful calling of Bishops , not parsons in euery parish , but Bishops in their diocesse and prouinces , appointed in the Apostlestimes , for the right order and gouernment of the church of Christ .

The second question before mentioned , being as concerning priests or elders , was , as it followeth . Whether can it be shewed out of any ancient father , out of any councell either generall or prouincial , or out of any ecclesiastical historie , for the space of 1500 & od yeares , euen from the Apostles times , till of late , that in the sayd ordinarie distribution , since that time euer vsed of church-officers , into episcopos , Presbiteros , & Diaconos , Bishops , priests and deacons , whether I say , can it be shewed that the word presbyter , priest , or elder , was at any time taken and vsed for certain meere lay men , as craftsmen , husbandmen , citizens , gentlemen or noblemen , such as should be chosen for a yeare or two , to be assistants vnto the ministers of the word , for the better gouernment of the church , as to haue authoritie with others , to ordaine and impose their hands vpon a minister of the word and sacraments , to bind and lose sinnes , &c. vsing in the meane time their seuerall vocations ▪ as they did before , and ceasing after the said one or two yeres , without any offence committed by them to be any longer presbyteri . Or was it not euer within the time limited taken & vsed only in the said distribution for the ministers of the word and sacraments ? Vnto this question , one hath made this answer . The word Presbiteri was neuer otherwise taken since the Apostles times , in that distribution : but for the ministers of the word and sacraments , as it is most euident to any that shal peruse the ecclesiasticall histories , or will take any paines to read the writings of the ancient fathers . But of this point before it be long , you shall heare more by one , who , as he hath done euery thing he dealeth with , so hath hee handled this very notably . Now in the meane while , according to the order which hitherto I haue kept , it shall be sufficient for me , that the three sayd doctors , men well accounted of with maister Cartwright , and his adherents , and such as will not bee thought to speake any thing partially , may deliuer their opinions , as touching this matter . For to my vnderstanding , they are as direct in this point , what the word Presbyteri should signifie in the ancient fathers , as they were before , in the other of Bishops . If in the sayd ancient Fathers , the name of Bishop be appropriated to one that had a greater dignitie than was common to all ministers , and that by the name of Bishops , they neuer vnderstood the pastors of euery parish , as doctor Robinson sayth . If in the primitiue church , and in the Fathers language , they were called Bishops , that were the cheefe , and presidents ouer the rest of the priests or elders , euen such as our Sauiour himselfe , by the holy Euangelist S. Iohn , doth call angels , as doctor Reynolds affirmeth . If by ancient vse of speech he was onely called a Bishop , which in the scriptures is called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 If the elders that were subiect to these gouernours , were of one order and authoritie with them , in preaching the word , and administration of the sacraments , as doctor Fulke hath written , against the Iesuits : doth it not follow most necessarily , that all the Clergie being deduced into three degrees , vz. of Bishops , priests or elders , and deacons : that by priests , the ancient fathers must needs vnderstand the rest of the ministers of the word and sacraments , that were no bishops ? except any will be so impudent , as to say , that they were none of the clergie . He that will doubt hereof , let him doubt for me , whether the sunne be vp at noone .

Besides , doctor Raynolds sheweth , that Ciprians elders did administer the sacraments . And for doctor Fulke , after he had once incountred with the papists , and amongst many other points , was come to this whereof I speake , concerning the name of priests , as it is a distinct degree vnder bishops : though before , and peraduenture then also , hee had a great fancie to the consistoriall Aldermen , yet then that hee was driuen to deale directly and truly : consider how he was inforced to alter his disciplinarie stile : Those priests or ministers that are made among vs , Defen. of the Engl. trans . p. 163. are the same elders that the scriptures in Greeke calleth 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and in the bishops letters of orders , they call them by the name presbiteri : which tearme , though in English you sound it priests , elders , ancient seniors or ministers , it is the same office which is described by the holy ghost , Tit. 1. and in other places of scripture . Conf. of the Rhem. pa. 46 Againe , We refuse not the name priest as it commeth of presbiter , &c. it is odious to some that know not the true Etimologie thereof . Ibid. pa. 210. Againe , The name priest , as it is deriued of the Greeke , we do not refuse it . Again , It appeareth by many places of Wicklifs works , and namely in his homilie vpon Phil. 1 that hee acknowledgeth the destinction of bishops and priests , Ibid. p. 339. for order and gouernment , although for doctrine and administration of sacraments they are all one . Againe , Defence of the Engl. trans . pa. 185 Ibid. In the fathers , Episcopus and Presbiter , Bishop and Priest , are two distinct degrees . And againe , In the fathers the word Presbiter is one degree only , that is subiect to the Bishop . Whereas therefore maister Cartwright with his followers , do pretend that they propound nothing which the writers both old and new , for the most part do not affirme , and the examples of the primitiue churches confirme . As that where the ancient fathers and ecclesiasticall histories make mention of bishops and priests , they vnderstand by bishops , his parish parsons ; and by priests , his counterfeit Aldermen : beleeue both him , & all that glaine after him therein , as they deserue , and as by the premisses you shall iudge there is cause .

CAP. XXXI . How and with what disagreement they wrest and misconster the scriptures , in the behalfe of their pretended discipline .

ABout the yeare 420 , there fell a great contention betwixt the bishops of Affrike , and Zosimus the bishop of Rome . The point in question , was this : whether it was lawfull for them of Affrike to appeale from the proceedings of their owne bishops to the bishop of Rome . Vpon which occasion partly , there was a councel held in Affrike , tearmed the sixt councell of Carthage , wherein S. Augustine was present . The bishop of Rome hearing of this councell , and that it was assembled especially about that matter , sent thither his factors ▪ Faustinus bishop of Potentia , with other two priests of Rome , Philippus and Asellus . In this councell , when the sayd question began to be debated , the bishop of Romes factors ( being for their wit and learning , three of the especiallest men that Zosimus could find out , for such a purpose ) did deale most expresly against the bishop of Affrike , for the prerogatiue and iurisdiction of the see of Rome . In all the which contention , notwithstanding the sayd factors were such excellent men , & vsed the strength of al the wit and learning that was in them , yet they could not find any one argument , in all the scriptures , nor in all the fathers , nor in all the world , whervpon they might insist , but did wholy rely vpon a pretended cannon of the councell of Neece . Which cannon , after much trouble , many letters written , and answers receaued , was prooued to their faces , by the said Affrican bishops , to be a most false and a counterfeit cannon . At this time these arguments for the Popes authoritie had neuer bene heard of . Neyther thou art Peter : nor , confirme thy bretheren : nor feed my sheepe : nor , vnto thee will I giue the keies of the kingdome of heauen : nor any of the rest , which now are alleaged out of the scriptures . As the bishops of Rome by their practises did grow in greatnesse : so their parafits by their flattering , did draw and wrest the scriptures to maintain their pride . In as much , that of later times , euen as children do imagin that the bels do ring , whatsoeuer they will sing : so there is almost nothing in the scriptures mentioned , no not from the sunne in the firmament , to a peece of siluer found in the mouth of a fish that was catched with an angle in the sea : but that the scholemen , and other popish writers , do presently conceaue with themselues , that it tendeth to the setting forth of the popes great power & glorie . You haue heard in the second chapter , by what arguments M. Caluin induced the ministers & magistrats of Zuricke , and so likewise ( as I take it ) of the other three cities there mentioned : to write ( as they did ) for the obtaining of his presbytery at Gene●a . It th●n sufficed him , that they were content to say but thus much for his sake : that this platforme of discipline , did cast but an eye as it were , toward the word of God . He neither vrged them with the Iewes Sanedrim , nor with their sinagogues , nor with tell the Church , nor with the elders that rule wel , nor with any such persuasions . It is true , that although when hee first deuised that platforme , 1537. I suppose he had not thought of many places in the scriptures , wherevpon he might build it , yet before his sayd practises with them of Zuricke , 1553 , &c. hee had in some of his commentaries and other writings , made mention of those places specified : but yet hee had done it very modestly , rather thereby to prooue his owne platforme to be lawfull , than to impeach the forme of church-gouernment , allowed of and established , in any other reformed churches . So as , when he dealt with them of Tigurine , for as much as he himselfe was persuaded that the forme of discipline then at Geneua , was not onely in it selfe lawfull , but for that place also , most fit and conuenient , he alleaged not any one text of scripture for the continuance of it there , but onely shewed what mischiefe would ensue in that place , if it were abolished : and therefore craued their assistance in manner and forme , as he gaue them direction . Marrie after it was by his means more fully established : then for the better preseruation of it , you would hardly bethinke it , what wringing and wresting there hath since bene made of the scriptures , to vnderprop it , with this translation , with that note , with such an interpretation , and with such a collection . In so much as now there is seldome mention made of elders in the old or new testament , of the words , congregation and church , of the greatest and cheefest iudges , of bishops , of rulers , of thrones , and of the kingdome of Christ , but maister Beza , Iunius , Danaeus , Cartwright , Trauers , and all their schollers : do thinke they heare a sound that ringeth out most plainly in their eares , a formall peale of their presbyteri platforme .

Hauing occasion to talke vpon a time , with an artizan of Kingston , about his refusall ( after the purest fashion ) to be examined vpon his oth : because I saw how peart hee was , & rapt out text vpon text ( full ignorantly God knoweth ) : I was so bold as to examin him in the second petition of the Lords praier , demaunding of him , what he thought was meant by this word , kingdome , ther● mentioned . Whereunto he made in effect this answer , without any staggering : We pray ( sayth hee ) that our heauenly father , would at the last graunt vnto vs , that we might haue pastors , doctors , elders , and deacons in euery parish ▪ and so be gouerned by such elderships , as Christs holy discipline dooth require . And surely as it was with this fellow , so is it with the most of those , that talke so much of reformation , ( as well with the schollers , as with very many of their maisters ) put them out of their theame of rayling against the orders of our church , and of extolling the pretended platforme of their counterfeit discipline : and for other points which are of the substance of religion , you shall find them most ignorant . And ( as I take it ) the reason thereof is this : because they haue found this phantasticall deuise , magnified and extolled so exceedingly , by a most lewd application of all those places of scripture ( in a manner ) vnto it , which are written of the spirituall gouernment of the holy ghost , in the harts of the faithfull ( as hereafter it will further appeare vnto you ) that they almost care for no other points , so as they can bable of discipline , and whet their tongues like rasors , to wound all those that do impugne it .

You may remember , that in the fift chapter for the finding out of the beginning and institution of this pretended eldership , we were carried by degrees , first to the return of the Iewes from their captiuitie , them to M●ses time , & thirdly almost to the daies of Noah , they might as well haue brought vs within a generation of Adam . Now according to these deuises , the scriptures are framed to serue euery one of their purposes . For the manifestation where of , I wil take no very long course , nor enter into any ful discussing of those places , which I find to be peruerted ( that worke being performed alreadie , in diuers learned mens writings , and as it wil appeare to al the world more fully hereafter ) only my meaning is , that ye might perceaue , and still obserue , how agreeably al things concur together in the building & setting out of their disciplinary Babel . It is nothing els , but ( as oft I haue sayd ) a meere fantasticall dreame . And therefore by Gods prouidence , that men might the better discern it , and so take heed , least they should be deceiued with such a vanitie : it is framed according to the nature of such a fancy , with discords , contrarieties , disagreements , nouelties , with stretching & straining the scriptures , as ech man is disposed : & I know not , with how many paltries , & vnlearned deuises . Cartwright , who hath out-run his fellowes a very great way , Exod. 4 . 2● . pretendeth , that he is able to hammer his eldership out of the 4 of Exod. because Moses and Aaron , when they came into Egipt , did cal together , as God had commanded them , the elders of the children of Israel . Here you heare indeed , that there is mention made of elders . Wherevpon Cartwright finding that name ( after one or two vnlikelihoods brought out by him ) wil needs persuade vs that by those elders , that are meant in that place , such like churchaldermen must be vnderstood as he and his fellowes h●ue dreamed of . But herein , he is not like to haue any good successe . For Nicholas Gallasius , a Geneuian , to the vttermost , who hath written a commentary vpon that booke , doth hold it for a certaintie , that such elders are vnderstood in that place , as did rule the people , Gal. in Ex● . 3. doctrina et exemplo , by doctrine and example : which should rather agree to those that were preachers , then to Cartwrights vnt●aching elders . If this interpretation notwithstanding , shal ●ot be thought su●ficient to encounter with Cartwrights : then heare further two or three besides . ●el . in Ex● . 3. Pellicane & Simlerus , are both of opinion , that neither Gallasius preachers , nor Cartwrights aldermen , Sim●in Ex. 3. are meant there by Moses , but indeed such elders as were ciuile gouernors , senators , & princes of the people . And vnto these two for an ●speciall aduantage , I may ad a surpassing testimony of no common person , but such a one as will bring in with him a Rabbin , to assist and maintaine as much as he will tell vs . Cornelius Bertram , in his booke de politia Iudaica , dedicated to Beza , & printed at Geneua 1580 ( with his approbation I doubt not ) writeth a whole chapter , of purpose to proue that the said elders were ciuile magistrats . Haebreos politian ciuilem , &c. That the Hebrewes had a ciuile gouernment in Egypt it appeareth , because when Moses was to go into Egypt , De poli● . I● ca. 5. he had a commandement from God , that he should go to the elders , &c. Who ( sayth Bertrame ) were the rulers , moderators and gouernours of that Aristocraticall common wealth . For the which his iudgement , beside sundry reasons of his own there set down , he alleageth also the testimonie of Aben Hezra . So as now , except Cartwright or his adherents in this point , shal hereafter find a more probable likelihood , then hitherto he hath brought forth , to shew vs their elderships to haue had their being afore the law of Moses , both he & they may shue the goose by these mens opinions , for any helpe they are like to haue for that purpose out of any place in Exodus : In very truth the circumstances of those places which he bringeth , being conferred with that , which is sayd of the same elders , in the former chapter , are so directly against him , as I can but meruaile that euer he durst presume to set downe such a strange assertion , vpon so senselesse and childish a supposall .

And now as concerning the second sort , that content themselues to looke no further for their elderships , then vnto Moses time , for as much as they haue many mo shewes and pretenses to dim mens sights withall , then the former sort haue yet inuented : I will take an aduantage which is layd before me , for the better opening vnto you of their iarres and disagreements , about those places which are brought out of Moses , and out of some other parts of the old testament . Maister Beza acknowledgeth Caluin for his maister , and doth euermore tearme him doctissimum interpretem , the most learned interpreter . And maister Cartwright expresseth as much , but yet more fully . For hee sayth , that maister Caluine is the notablest instrument that the Lord hath stirred vp , T.C. l. 1. p. 32 for the restoring of the plaine and sincere interpretation of the scriptures , which hath bene since the Apostles times . In respect of which his excellencie ( as indeed he was a singular man ) maister Cartwright in another place , maketh this offer to all in effect , that do not like well of the Geneua discipline . T.C. l. 1. p. 33. We will not refuse ( sayth he ) the iudgement of maister Caluin in any matter that we haue in controuersie with you . Here is surely a faire offer , and no man can desire a more direct issue . But thinke you a man might safely take it ? Who is so bold ( they say ) as blind ba●ard ? Surely as blind as I am , I will aduenture vpon it . Shall euery thing indeed , bee referred to maister Caluins iudgement ? very well .

This is then a controuersie betwixt vs . T.C. l. 3. pa. 40. Maister Cartwright , and as many as cleaue vnto him , do affirme , that the eldership was ordained , & in practise before the law . We denie it . Let maister Caluin be the iudge . So likewise I do say againe , to as many as depend vpon maister Beza , if they will ioine with vs in the same issue , as reason is they should , maister Caluin being their leaders maister , and the most learned interpreter of the scriptures . Beza . de presb . pag. 104. &c. Beza , and all such as are tied to his sleeue , do hold it ( as I suppose ) as an infallible ground for discipline , that Moses did institute this ( pretended ) eldership , which we denie : and let maister Caluin be the iudge . A number of places are brought out of Moses bookes , and out of the Chronicles , and Prophets , by Beza , Cartwright , & all their schollers : for the proofe of such an eldership to haue bene in those times . But we are fully resolued , that all those places which they bring for that purpose , are wrested from their right meaning , and do constantly denie , that there was euer any such eldership in being , in those times . And therein also wee say , let maister Caluin be the iudge . Although peraduenture there may be diuers , that will refuse to stand vpon this triall , as attributing more skill in the scriptures to Beza , and to themselues , then they do vnto maister Caluin : yet Cartwright is surely bound , to stand to his offer . Now then , what Caluins iudgement is in all these points : it is necessarie to be considered . Surely you haue heard it before in the fift chapter . Cap. 5. pa. 81. The summe whereof is this : that the sayd pretended eldership was neuer thought of in the world , till after the captiuitie . And the reason why then it was ordained , he sayth , was this : vz. because it was not lawfull for them at that time to create a king . As though he should haue said that , if the Iewes might haue had a king according to their former custome in times past , such a manner of gouernement had neuer bene once thought of . Whereas therefore Beza , Cartwright , and the rest that contend so eagerly for the Geneuian discipline , T.C. lib. 3. p. 4. &c. Bez. de pres . p. 102. &c. do fill the margents of their bookes with sundry texts out of the old testament , as out of Exod. 4.29 . and 17.5 . Deut. 1 , 15. and 17.12.2 . Chr. 19.8 . Iere. 19 , 1. Ezech. 8.1 , &c. where there is speech of elders , senates , and seates of iustice . Maister Caluin , you see hath giuen sentence against them , and doth in effect with Erastus , expound all those elders of the people , & all those consistories or senats ( for ought I can find ) to be ciuile officers , and ciuile courts , appointed for the ciuile gouernment of that people and nation . Besides also in the place of Leuiticus concerning the priests office , of putting a difference between the holy & the vnholy , between the cleane and the vncleane ( from which words maister Beza is enforced to set the institution , and iurisdiction of his eldership ) maister Caluins exposition is there in like maner altogether against him , and wholy agreeth with Erastus mind . vz. that therby Moses meaning was ( as it is word for word set downe by the prophet Ezechiel ) that the priests should teach the people out of the law what was holy , what vnholy ; what cleane , what polluted : and that as Malachy saith , the priests are and ought to be the interpreters of the law . Now , if maister Beza , maister Cartwright , and the rest , will stand to maister Caluins iudgement , who is so excellent an interpreter of the scriptures , what shall become of their eldership ? Neither Moses , the Chronicles , Ieremie , nor Ezechiel , can helpe them : and to haue Erastus expositions thus iustified , and theirs reiected , I suppose they will not indure it . Their only shift then , & plea must needs be , as I take it , that first wher they extolled M. Caluin so highly , for his interpretation of the scriptures , their meaning was alwaies to except themselues , and secondly as concerning their offer , that they are yet content ( if we wil , to refer it to M. Caluins iudgement , whether there ought to be an eldership or not in euery parish . Marrie for the proofes that must vphold it , for the time of the institution of it , and for such matters , therin they will leaue him , as neuer meaning to be iudged by him in those points , which is , as though the eye and the eare should say , the one that it could see better , & the other that it could heare better , then he himselfe that made , both the eye and the eare . Wel , I am fully persuaded , that if M. Caluin were now again at Geneua , but for 3 or 4 daies , and should find M. Beza with al his partakers , Cartwright , Iunius , & the rest , so mightily plunged for the maintenance of his deuise , as that they shuld be driuen some of them to run into Egypt , some into the wildernes to mount Sinay , some they know not whither , and al of them to run so far out of his paths , he would be greatly offended , & much amased at the matter : could he take it in any good part , that Beza specially , being a man whom he had made such choise of , to be a principal defender of the consistoriall discipline , should by his intermedling with the gouernment of other churches , haue pulled so many men vpon him , as that for the defense of his own at home , he should be driuen to seeke the first institution of it in Leuit. 10. v. 10. & either there to hunt it out , or to giue it ouer in the plaine field . Surely there is great reason he should . But what is that to me ? otherwise then that you thereby might be informed , what constant hold their pretended holy elderships haue hither to found in the old testament , and how they agree in the interpretation of such scriptures as should sustaine them .

Lastly , as touching maister Caluins own opinion , for the institution of his eldership after the captiuitie of the Iewes , there doth not come into my memorie at this present , any especiall place alleaged by him , out of the scriptures to that purpose . Neither do I find in him so much , as that God did euer command this Sanedrim which hee speaketh of , to be euer erected . Only he sayth , Hoc legitimum fuit Deoque probatum regimen , Cal. math. 18. They are a lawful regiment , & allowed of God . Allowed of God , not commanded . I know that Cartwright & some others , T.C. lib. 3 pa. 40. do bring for the continuance of their pretended elderships , after the captiuitie , certain places out of Ezra & Nehemiah , I.B. polit. p. 101. wher ther is mention made of the cheefe of the fathers and of elders , Ezr. 1.5 . & 2.68 . & 10.8 . likewise of certain that stood by Ezra , Nehe. 8.4.7.9 . when he preached to the people , but the places are so apparantly wrested , as no man that readeth them , can be so dull , but he must needs discerne it . But I meruaile , Cal. in Math. 18. what maister Caluin meaneth , when attributing to the Sinedriū or councel erected by the Iewes , after their returne from Babylon : Censuram morum & doctrinae , The censure of maners and doctrine . In another place ( where he speaketh of the sayd constitution , or erecting of it ) hee affirmeth , Cal. in Nu. 2. v. 16. that the 70 elders which were from time to time chosen , to be of the Sanedrim , were of the stocke of Dauid , and of their former kings . I hope they will not say , that consequently their counterfeit elders , ought all of them to be of the blood roiall . But breefely for this matter of the Sanedrim , or courts of iustice , after the captiuitie , I cannot iudge them to be any other , then such courts and assemblies , as were before ordained by Moses , and had to do as well in ciuile caules , Sutcl de presb . c. 9. Sutcl . of disc. ca. 4. sec. 1. as ecclesiasticall , as it may at large appeare to those , that will take the paines to read some part of doctor Sutclifs bookes , whither for this time , if they list , I send them . And so leauing any further to trouble you with this disciplinarie harmonie , drawne by the eares out of the old testament : I will come to the new .

Many things haue bene spoken of throughout the whole course of this booke , which might be fit for this place , as their iarring and disagreement in euery chapter , almost hitherto , which alwaies doth rise , because that euery one of them in effect ( if he account himselfe to bee any body ) will writh and expound the scriptures , as occasions serue , and his affections do moue him . The most of those places in the new testament , that maister Caluin dooth expound , of pastors and preachers only : Beza , Iunius , Cartwright , and others of the disciplinarie mould , ( and no men els ) do wrest , and violently draw them vnto their Aldermen . 1. Cor. 14.32 . Act. 10.28 . Phil. 1.1 . Tit. 1.7 . 1. Tim. 3.2 . Rom. 15.16 . Act. 26.16 . They ( forsooth ) are prophets , to whom the spirits of other prophets must be subiect : they are bishops , for the feeding of Christs flocke . Of their office it is sayd , that he who desireth a bishopricke , desireth a good worke . That which S. Paule speaketh of himselfe , as that he is a minister of the gospell , and a witnesse appointed of those things , which he had seene , when the Lord appeared vnto him , as he was going to Damascus : Iunius will needs extend , to these consistoriall companions . Hereof you may see more in the sixt chapter , where they ascribe vnto them , all those names , that since the Apostles times haue only bene giuen to the ministers of the word . Maister Caluins authoritie is little regarded in this behalfe , euen of those men , who account him the best interpreter of the scriptures that euer was in the world , these 1500 yeares . Cartwright being pressed sometimes with maister Caluins authoritie , in expounding certaine places , to be meant of pastors and ministers of the word , where he will needs thrust in amongst them , his Aldermen , doth vse this wrangling shift viz. that although M. Caluin say , that such ministers are there vnderstood ; yet he saith not , that they only are there vnderstood . By the which maner of euasion , what can be spoken , that may not be peruerted ? I do not remember that the scriptures do say in anie place , that Christ had onelie twelue Apostles : and then by Cartwrights shift we may say , he had as manie , as we list . Certainly he might haue emploied his wit to better purposes then he hath done . God will one day require an account both of him and of all the rest of that packe , that take vpon them so presumpteouslie , not onely to peruert the words and meaning of men , but of the holie Ghost in like manner .

Apoc. 1.20 . & 2.1 . &c. By the Angels mentioned in the Apocalips ; we must not vnderstand the Bishops of those 7. churches , that are there named : But whom ( I pray you , ) and what ? Vnto the Angell of the church of Ephesus : that is , saith Carolus Gallus vnto the pastor : Cha. Gal. in Apocal. ca. 2. Iuni. annot. ibid. Bez. Annot. Apo. 2.1 . vnto the Angel of the church of Ephesus , &c. that is , saith Iunius vnto the pastors of the church of Ephesus : vnto the Angel of the church of Ephesus , that is , saith Beza 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 that is , vnto the prelate or president , of the presbiterie . Lastly ynto the Angel , &c. that is , I.B. de polit. pag. 160. I.B. ibid. saith , I.B. vnto the presbiterie . To the presbiterie with a mischief ? Oh , good words : yea to the presbiterie . How so ? sane 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Angelus dici potuit : Surely the presbiterie may be called corporally an Angell . It is goodly newes . Of likelyhod , he relieth vpon the Apostles words : where speaking of the diuinitie of our Sauiour : Col. 2.9 . Saint Paul saith ; that in him dwelleth all the fulnes of the godhead 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 corporally or bodilie : that is the diuinitie of Christ , and his humanitie are knit together substantiallie , and essentiallie . And must we say in like sort : set vp the pretended discipline in euerie perish , and then the Elderships so placed in them , and the Angels in heauen will be out of hand essentiallie tied and incorporated ( as it were ) together ? What a thing is it that Saint Iohn in one word , should haue so manie and so misticall meanings ? Their discipline would blush , if she had anie modestie in her , to see the word of God , for her sake thus vsed .

The only place in the new testament , which they do relie most vpon , and from whence they set all their roiall authoritie , to excommunicat Princes , and to deale with all matters at their pleasures : is that of S. Mathew where it is thus written : Math. 18. If thy brother trespasse against thee , go & tell him of his fault betwene him and thee alone : if he hear thee , thou hast wonne thy brother : but if he heare thee not , take yet with thee one or two &c. And if he refuse to heare them : tell the Church , &c. Now as concerning the exposition of these words : a man would blesse himselfe to consider , how they are incombred . You see there is mention made of some thing that is amisse : and that is done against some bodie . Likewise it is plaine , that the thing which is here mentioned , is to be done either priuately or publikely : and that certaine witnesses are to be vsed . But if you aske them , what things these are against whom they are committed : whether they must be priuate or publicke trespasses : & what kind of witnesses are ment here by our Sauiour : ( euerie one of these pointes being of the verie essence of their pretended discipline : ) they will tell you their minds , when they know , what to thinke of all these points themselues .

Si peccauerit in te . If thy brother sinne against thee ▪ Nay : that is not well translated . You must say : If thy brother trespasse against thee . Geneu . translat . But it were better to translate it : If thy b b Beza de presb . pag. 50 brother offend or scandalize thee , &c. The word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 to sinne , in this place , ( being referred to men ) doth not signifie to sinne , c c Beza ibid. sayth Beza , but 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 that is , to offend . The word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 hath in this place his proper signification , that is to d d Sneca . de dis. p. 461. sinne , sayth Snecanus . Beza , All sinnes or e e Beza de presb pag. 46 offensions are not here meant , but those only , that are called offendiculae , that is stumbling blocks to mens consciences . f f Sneca . de dis. pag. 460. Snecanus , All sinnes are here meant , as well against God as man ; howsoeuer they be committed , eyther by violence or by deceit , in words , or deeds , of purpose , or vnaduisedly . Againe Snecanus , Christ speaketh g g Sneca . ibi . pag. 458. here of iniuries committed . Beza , Christ h h Beza de presb . pag. 57 doth not speake here of any iniuries committed . Gallasius , Christ i i Gallas . cont . Alex. doth speake here of common faults , and not of those which are more hainous , vz. such as tend to the ouerthrow either of religion , or of the common state . Caluin , Christ k k Calu. inst. lib. 4. cap. 12. sect. 4. speaketh here of all sorts of sinnes , as well small as great , not only of such as are delicta , little offences ; but scelera velflagitia , euen the greatest of al. Nay ▪ sayth Beza , Christ l l Beza de presb . pa. 53. speaketh here of no sinnes , neither great nor small , sauing of the greatest sinne of all sinnes , which is , contumacia aduersus ecclesiam , contumacie against the church : that is the presbiteri . Againe Beza , m m Beza ibid. pag. 49. Christ speaketh not here of any offence ob priuatum damnum , for priuate losse , but of an offense that Gods commandement is broken . But Snecanus sayth , that Christ n n Snec . de dis. pag. 457. speaketh of iniuries whether we are hurt or sustaine losse .

Si peccauerit in te , If thy brother sinne against thee . Caluin , They are deceiued , who a a Cal. est Anabap. Cal. epi. 55. thinke that Christ in this place doth not speake , de secretis delictis , of secret sinnes . Beza , They are deceiued b b Bez. annot. Math. 18. who thinke that Christ in this place doth speake , de priuatis delictis , of priuat sinnes . Gallasius : Facessere c c Gal. cont. Alex. debet quaestio , &c. the question of publike and manifest sinnes , which may otherwise bee punished ; away with it . For Christ speaketh here de secretis peccatis , of secret sinnes . Snecanus : Christ d d Sneca . de dis. pag. 460. speaketh heere of all sinnes aswell publicke as priuate . And Cartwright : Christ e e T : C. l. 2 p. 66 speaketh here of priuate sinnes , and then a maiori , of publicke . Hereunto also do appertaine , the other two pointes , vz. against whom any of these sinnes whether priuate or publicke are saide to be committed , and of the witnesses . Against thee . That is , saith Beza , against f f Beza annot. Ma. 18. de pres pag. 47. another , te conscio : thou knowing of it . One committeth an vnlawfull act , against some other man : thou knowest it , and art thereuppon offended : because in committing the sayde act , hee hath broken Gods commaundement . Against thee . That is , sayth Gallasius : against g g Gal. con. Alex thee who art iniured . In te h h Snec . de dis. pag. 458. laeso : against thee that art hurte , saith Snecanus . And maister Caluin doth likewise ( if I vnderstand him ) so expounde that place : against thee : reckoning i i Cal. in Ma. 18 them contentious men , that say otherwise . But now concerning the witnesses , being a part also of this point in hand .

Since her Maiesties raigne ( which the Lorde for his Christs sake continue long ouer vs ) there was a great contention , Instit. lib. 4. ca. 12. sect. 3. Epist. 55. betweene two Ministers of the French church in London : N. Gallasius , and one P. Alexander : about this verie matter . And as it should seeme ; there was partes taking . Maister Caluins opinion is with Gallasius , and maister Bezaes , with Alexander . Caluin and Gallasius ( as you haue heard ) do thinke ; that Christ in this place , when he saith , against thee , and betweene him and thee alone , and if hee heare not thee &c. doth speake of such a sinne , as no man knoweth off , but onlie he him selfe , against whom it was committed . Whereuppon it followeth of necessitie , that when Christ sayth : take with thee one or two &c. for witnesses : we must by those witnesses vnderstand witnesses of the admonition , which he ( who taketh them with him , ) must giue in theyr presence , to the partie that had offended . For witnesses of the fact , they could not bee : ●al . con. Alex : in that they saw it not . So as both maister Caluin , and Gallasius , doe thinke , that here Christ speaketh , de testibus admonitionis , of the witnesses of admonition . And Gallasius , amongst other reasons for him selfe : alledgeth this . Non dicit Christus : voca testes , qui rem viderint &c. Christ sayth not , call such witnesses as sawe the trespasse when it was committed : but take one or two . Vnus certe testis ad rem probandam non sufficeret : but one witnes ( who may serue as after hee saith , to prooue a mans contumacie or repentance ) is not sufficient to conuince a man of a fact , if he deny that euer hee committed any such fact . Maister Caluin , being asked his iudgement hereof , by the ministers of Neocomum , as it seemeth : writ vnto them , after this sort : Quod postea &c. Cal. epist. Neo com . 55. That which followeth vz. ( if hee heare thee not ) hoc nostro iudicio intelligendum est , non de testibus delicti , sed admonitionis : This in our iudgement must bee vnderstoode , not of the witnesses of the fact , but of the admonition .

Against this interpretation ; heare now what Beza & Alexander haue to saie . If this interpretation ( saye they ) should bee good : Beza de presb . pag. 51 , Gal , cont. Alex. consider then , what inconueniences would followe of it : I will set downe two ; and so referre you to Beza , for the rest . It maye fall out oftentimes ( saie they in effect , ) that the partie delinquent , confessing his fact to him , that came first vnto him , to admonish him of it , wil afterwards , when he shal bring one or two witnesses with him , denie that euer hee eyther did , or confessed anye such deed ? And what then ? Besides , it maie well inough come to passe , that hee vnto whom a man shall come , in such a charitable sorte , to admonish him ; maie burst foorth into a choller , and saie , that hee is slaundered : and so calling the said man ( for his godly minde ) into the law , as a slaunderer , make them witnesses of his pretended slaunder , that came to be witnesses of his admonition . For these reasons therefore , Alex. con , Gal. Beza . and for some other ; Beza and Alexander will not admit , that Christ should speake heere of such priuate offences , as none knew but one , but of such us that there might bee some witnesses of them , if the offenders should denie them . So as now in both their iudgements : Christ doth speake in this place , de testibus facti , of the witnesses of the fact .

Peraduenture you can bee heere content , to heare some aunswere to these obiections . They seeme to bee of great difficultie , and to carrie some matter with them : Gal. con , Alex. which may preiudice mayster Caluin and Gallasius . But what should men talke of difficulties , when the trueth appeareth . Incommoda et inconuenientia non soluunt regulam : Incommodities and inconueniences doe not ( sayth Gallasius ) dissolue a generall rule . It maye bee that the partye maie denie his facte , as it hath beene sayde . If hee doe : hee is to bee lefte to the great Iudge . Yea ; but hee will take the Lawe against the Admonitioner : as a slaunderer of him . Hee maie doe so indeede ( sayth Gallasius againe ) : and I haue seene experience of it . And there is no other remedie but this : the graue men , that were brought to bee witnesses of the admonition , must tell the Iudge the whole matter , and for what purpose they were brought to the plaintiffe . Whereby the Iudge , maye easilye vnderstande the iniurie offered : and then , if he fauour the Church , hee will send the partye to the Eldershippe , or Ecclesiasticall Senate : or else vz. in effect , that the defendaunt in that action , must beare it off , with his heade and shoulders .

It is no meruayle then you see ; that our reforminge Generation , should crie out so mightelie , for the newe forme of discipline : it is so substantially compact together , and at such great vnitie in it selfe . Vnto these caterbraules , and pittifull distractions , I might adde a great heape of other confusions : all of them proceedinge from such intollerable presumption , as is vsed in the behalfe of that Minion , by the peruertinge , and false interpretation of the sacred Scriptures . But I haue been too tedious alreadie in this matter , and therefore to grow towardes an ende of it . Of all the places of Scripture , which they pretende , to make for such partes of their discipline , as is disliked by the Church of Englande : as either for their Iewish Sanedrim , their parish Bishops , their vnpriestlie Aldermen ; with their priestlye functions , their Geneuian presbyteries , or Elderships : of all the places of scripture ( I saie ) which they bring , for that purpose , I professe vnto you as in the presence of God , that I cannot find anie one , but by one meanes or other , they haue cast such a colour vpon it , as was neuer knowen in the Church of Christ , amongst all the auncient godly Fathers , from the Apostles times , till these our troublesome and presumptuous daies .

Well , It is not inough for men to alledge scriptures , except they bring the true meaning of the Scriptures . For as Saint Augustine saith : Heresies , and erroneous opinions , August . tract . in Iohn 18. doe not otherwise spring and grow vp , nisi dum Scripturae bonae intelliguntur non bene , & quod in eis non bene intelligitur , etiam temerè & audaciter asseritur : but when the good Scriptures are not well vnderstood : and because that which is not well vnderstoode in them , is notwithstanding rashlye and boldly affirmed , to be the meaning of them . There was neuer anie thing hitherto so fondly deuised : but the authors of it , did euer pretend they had Scripture for it . For else saith Sainct Ierome : Hier: ad Tit. 1. the garrulity of such persons , non haberet fidem , would neuer haue wonne any credite . All sectes and Schismes , haue risen ( for the most part ) vppon discontentment . And this a man may obserue , in the writinges of the auncient Fathers : that as many men doe marrie , and so beget children , before they know how to keepe them : so commonly it hath fallen out , in new & strange opinions . Through pride and vanitie , they haue beene rashlie begotten : before the authors of them did know how to maintaine them . Marrie , when once they had engaged their credits , by broching of this and that , then they euer laboured , not to submitt them-selues and their opinions , vnto the trueth : Sed vt sibi scriptur as ipsi subijcerent : but ( as Augustine saith ) that they might bringe the scriptures , August . cont. Faust. l. 32. c. 19 to bee in subiection to them . Of the which kinde of men , Saint Hilary also speakinge , sayth : that they interpret the Scriptures , Hil : de Trinit. lib. 2. pro voluntatis suae sensu , according to such a sense as may serue their turnes &c. Which is ( as the same Hilary sheweth in another place ) non expectare , Hil. de Tri. l. 1● not to expecte : for the vnderstanding of those things , which are spoken in the Scriptures , out of the words themselues : sed imponere , but to impose a meaning vppon them : non referre sed adferre , not to deliuer the true sense of them , but to bring a sense of their owne : not a yeelding to the wordes , but a kind of compulsion , inforcement , or violence offered : to make that to seeme to be contained in them , quod ante lectionem praesumpserit intelligendum , which they presumed should be vnderstood by them , before they read them .

Whosoeuer doe deale with the Scriptures in this sort , well they may speak proud things , exalt themselues , promise mountaines , bragge of the Prophets , of Christ , of his Apostles , and verisimilia mentiri , as many such men in former times haue done : whereby for a season some may be deceaued : but yet as Sainct Cyprian saith : mendacia non diu fallunt . It will come to passe , as alwaies it hath done hitherto : that after a short time the couering of their deuises , with so many sleights and falshoodes , groweth to be detected : and then they are paid to their vtter discredite , the wages and full hire of such vnrighteous dealing .

CHAP. XXXIII . Of the prayse and disprayse of this pretended regiment .

IT is founde a a practise of prel ▪ D. 2. to bee the onely bonde of peace , the bane of heresie , the punisher of sinne , and mayntayner of righteousenes . It is b b motion p. 46. pure , perfect , & full of all goodnes , for the peace , wealth , and honor of Gods people , & is ordayned for the ioy and happines of all nations . It is the c c motion p 84 right stuffe and golde for building the Church of Gods . It is tearmed d d motion p 69 the venerable doctrine of discipline , the most e e L. disc. pag , 8 , beautifull order of ecclesiasticall regiment : The substantiaell f f Count. p , 29. forme of Christs gouernment : Christs g g motion p. 4● kingdome , Gods h h Ibidem p 34 gouernment . This would i i Ibidem p. 84. make the Church a chast Spouse , hauing a wonderfull brightnes as the morning : fayre as the moone , pure as the sunne , and terrible as an armie with banners . This gouerenment is k k Epist , before the supp. A , ● , the scepter , whereby alone Christ Iesus ruleth amongst men . The l l Mart. iunior thes , 14. Churches of God in Denmarke , Saxonie , Zurich , &c. wanting this gouernement , are to bee accounted maymed , and vnperfect . The establishing m m T.C. li. 1 , pag. 3. of the presbyteries , is the full placing of Christ in his kingdome . It is the blade n n motion 49 , of a shaken sworde in the hande of the Cherubins , to keepe the waye of the tree of life . It is called o o Regist. pa. 68 by the Apostle the grounde and piller of trueth . I denye p p Briefe dis. against R : B. serm , pag 15. not but the true gouernment of the church by the Eldershippe , may haue the most of those titles truely attributed vnto it , wherewith the visible church vnder the new testament is adorned . God hath ordayned the ciuile magistrate for the ecclesiasticall state , therefore is the supreme kingdome of God in this world , . It is the chiefe throne of all excellencie , wherein God him selfe doth sit . The politicall Empyre is but a subalterne regiment , et quasi inferius quoddam subsellium , Rennecherus in psal , 2 , p. 72. & as it were an vnder Court , that determineth and decideth iniuries , strifes , and contentions &c. idque ad ecclesiasticae oeconomiae praescriptum , and by the commaundement of the ecclesiasticall gouernement . Those Ministers that preferre the ciuile magistrate before the Ecclesiasticall , Rennecherus ibidem pag 74 they flatter him for profit , and theyr bellies sake , and do shamefu●ly , to the daunger of theyr owne soules deceiue him . The Ecclesiasticall discipline , est inspectatrix et custos , the ouerseer and keeper of the ciuile regiment : that the magistrate doe not commaund his subiects any thing eyther contrarye to Gods worde , Ibidem pa. 78 or against nature and honest manners . It is true that was begonne to bee affirmed , vz. that the spirituall iurisdiction , Ibidem pa , 37 , doth in price and dignitie so farre ouerweigh the politicall , as the soule excelleth the bodye . The spirirituall and ecclesiasticall gouernement ( by Pastors , Rennecher . in 2. psal , p. , 71. Beza de exco . pag. 4 Doctors , and Elders , ) is as much superiour and more worthy , then the politicke regiment , as heauenlye benefittes doe excell earthly commodities . Presbyterium est interpres Dei : the presbyterie is Gods interpreter . I B. Beza de pres : pa 1. 24 The Eldership may bee called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 that is , bodilie an Angell .

The Presbytery is erected vp , pro Christi tribunali , for Christs tribunall seate .

Hee that will reade , of the further commendation of this manner of Church-gouernement : let him peruse some parts of Trauerses defence of the Ecclesiasticall discipline . def: pa. 122 One thing I maie not omit : for the which he extolleth some reformed Churches ( as hee tearmeth them ) where the Elderships doe most florish , aboue the Skies : insomuch as hee saith : the examples of it might make an Infidell and vnbeleiuer fall downe on his face , and confesse , that vndoubtedlye God is amongst them , and in the middest of those churches . def: pa. 127 I dare saie you are desirous to know , what rare , excellent , and celestiall thing that shold bee , which is sufficient to woorke such a wonder . You haue heard howe Rennichere , hath exalted their Elderships or new papacie , aboue all kings and kingdomes : and now you shall see a singular proofe of it . To keepe you in suspence no longer , this wonderfull thing that Trauerse speaketh off is this : vz. that ( as it seemeth ) some of the said Churches , so highly by him commended , haue by vertue of their discipline ; excommunicated alreadie some great princes or Kinges . If he had not himselfe published this matter in print , and propounded the same as a president for the honour of his discipline : I would not haue presumed ( yee maie be sure ) to haue touched it . Neyther yet will I further meddle with it : then onely to set downe his wordes . After a long discourse , how , where there discipline is on foote , there is nothing in effect amisse : no priuate administration of the sacraments : no baptizing or reading of seruice by Deacons : no commutation of pennaunce : no respect of persons : he saith thus . Ibidem

Memorable is that rare , but right christian example of Theodosius the Emperor , publicklye humbling himselfe vnder the hande of God , and professing his repentance for his bloodye commaundement , and the cruell execution done accordinge to it . A president well worthy so christian a prince , the honour of the Discipline , yea and of the whole church of that age . Such Theodosians haue the reformed churches of this age to speake off , to the high honor of almighty God , and his onlye begotten sonne Christ Iesus , king of kinges . Wherein a Prince of bloode royall , and by birth within a step or two to one of the greatest Kingdomes of these partes of the worlde , and for princely giftes , worthy to haue borne a Scepter in his hande , and a Diademe vpon his heade , when as another Dauid , hee hadde been ouerthrowen by Sathan , and committed things , for which the name of God was euill spoken off , endured to heare the seruant of God ( as Dauid did Nathan ) to rebuke him : & lamenting his offence openly before the publicke assembly of the Church , desired pardon of God , and reioyced heauen and earth , men , and Angels with his conuersion from sinne , to the obedience of the liuing God blessed for euer , Amen . Whose christian president , both a crowned King , and also a worthie sonne of that noble Father , haue followed , after that by terror of as barbarous crueltie , as hath beene commited in any age , they had done otherwise then Daniell , and the yonge princes brought : vp with him did , in a case not vnlike to theyrs , &c. Hitherto Trauers . And what this importeth iudge you . I will aunswere no questions : who these Theodosians are . As princes like it : let them allow it .

And thus of the commendation of this gouernment : which if it were true indeed , and that it had by any lawfull title so Regall an authority , as here you see is pretended , who would not almost fall downe and worshippe it . But you must belieue them with discretion . Men that thinke they know this platforme as well , as the best of those that haue extolled it : do carrie a farre differing opinion of it . And therefore they haue been bold to write of it , as followeth .

It is a sillye a a Bar. p. 241 Presbytery or Eldership . A sequestred b b Bar : Grē : 169 withdrawen Presbyterye . A sweeping c c Bar : 92 new reformation . A presumptuous d d Bar : Gren. 79 irregular Consistory which hath no grounde in the worde of God . A second e e Barrow 190 beast . Let them consider f f Bar : Gren. 79 how far the ●auinge of such a Consistorie , and Pastor in one Congregation , differeth from that Apostolicall sea of Rome , and that holy father that sitteth therein . Of this g g Bar. Grē : 75 Consistorie through the whole testament they can shew no warraunt . They make h h Bar. Grē : 7 themselues transgressors of the worshippe of God , disturbers & violaters of that holy order , which Christ hath established in his Church . These deceitfull i i Bar : 142 workemen not onelye builde theyr owne timber and stubble deuises , but most highly prophane that heauenly frame and gratious gouernement of Christ . In their k k Bar. 151 leauened and corrupt writings of discipline , and theyr supplications vnto the Parliament , are declared , theyr pernitious forgeries , and sacrilegious prophanation of Gods holy ordinance . They fetch their l l 〈…〉 reformation from the primatiue defection . That counterfeyt m m 〈…〉 reformation , which these counterfeit preachers pretende , is as euill as that which is alreadie . Both these n n 〈…〉 factions , pontificall and reformists , woulde assume the whole gouernment of the Church into theyr owne handes . How can o these forgers , these coyners of religion , seeme & sue to cast out the heape of humane traditions , as contrary , and such as cannot bee ioyned vnto , or with the testament of Christ : and yet bring in these forgeries of theyr owne . Is it likely p p Bar : Gren : 75 or possible that our Sauiour Christ woulde fetch his patterne for the Elders of his Church , and the executing of these high iudgements , from that corrupt degenerate Synedrion of the Iewes , which by the institution of God was merely ciuile , and not ordayned for causes ecclesiasticall : as appeareth Exod. 18. Num. 11. Deut. 1 ? The priestes bearing the charge , and hauing the deciding of all ecclesiasticall causes Num. 18. Deut. 17. But this Councell of theyrs , was now mixed of the Elders of the people and the Priestes , and handled all causes , both ciuile and Ecclesiasticall indifferently . Mat. 26.3 . Act. 4.5 . q q Bar : Grē : 261 . If by the light of Gods word , you examine and measure the secret Classis , the ordinary sette Synods and Councels of ministers ( as they tearme themselues ) which these reformists now priuilie bring in , and would openly set vp : they shall no doubt be found as new , strange , & antichristian , as preiudicial to the libertie of the Saincts , and to the power , right , and duties of the whole Church , and as contrary to the gospell of our Lord Iesus Christ : as the gouernement by Bishops &c. what shew so euer of former antiquitie , or of present necessitie they may pretend . It is a new , r adulterate , forged gouernement in shew , or rather in dispight of Christs blessed gouernment : which they in pride , rashnes , ignoraunce , and sensualytye of theyr fleshly hartes , most miserablye innouate , corrupt , and peruert . Theyr most exquisite s s Bar : 220 plots of gouernment , which they can deuise vnto themselues , are but the instruments of foolish shepeheards to theyr owne perdition , and of as many as are gouerned by them .

There is great difference we may perceiue hereby , betweene the opinions of these two sorts of men ; concerning this presbyteriall forme of the new pretended discipline . If any that are possessed with the former mens conceites , shall lightly esteeme what this second sort of fellowes doe hold or thinke of their platforme : he is to be put in mind , that they are not so lightly to be regarded . Diuerse ministers well reckoned of heretofore for their learning : are lately fallen from Cartwright , and his secte , into another more new frenzy of Barrowisme . In a letter that was taken not long since : I find some points to this effect . The preachers of Midleborow and Flushing , haue both giuen ouer their vnlawfull callings . M. Iohnson hath written a most learned discourse , concerning the striking of a newe couenaunt , with some conferences had in that country . It is also reported , and I am perswaded , by that which I haue seene , that the report is true : vz. that maister Penry , is entered in like manner into this new kind of couenant . A matter , that would seeme very strange vnto me : but that I know the nature of schismatickes , to bee of such giddinesse : as that no one thinge will content them longe . What stirres hath hee kept in England : first with his two supplications vnto the high court of Parlaiment : his humble petition vnto her Maiestie : his exhortation vnto the gouernours and people of Wales : his Theses and libells , which came out vnder the name of Martin and his children ( wherein hee with his companion a certaine gentleman were , if not authors , yet especiall dealers ) and then with his treatises out of Scotland . That reformation ( hee meaneth the setting vppe of Cartwrightes Eldershippes ) is no ennemie to our state : his humble motion ( if not made by him , yet procured by him to bee printed ) : His discouery against D.B. and with diuerse other pamphlets , and most rayling discourses ? In all which bookes hee hath shewed such earnestnesse in the behalfe principally , of Cartwrights discipline : that hee hath offered to pawn his life many times for the iustification of it . Which course of his , by reason of his merueilous vehemency , wrought very greatly , ( as all menne knowe ) with certaine rashe and vnstaied persons , who haue bene since so farre ouercaried , with an opinion of the argumentes there vsed : as it hath beene giuen out many times by them , that they coulde neuer bee aunswered . And yet now if he bee one of Barrowes church : notwithstanding all his former writings and arguments , you haue heard his opinion , out of his brethrens mouthes : both of Cartwrights presbyteries , and of all those likewise that doe maintaine them .

Some will saie peraduenture : that for Penry , they neuer made anye reckoning of him . And it is well . But what if one of their Patriarckes beginne to wauer ? How if maister Trauerse bee inclined that way ? For mine owne part : I doe not thinke him so simple a man . But yet you shall heare what goeth abroad amongest that brainesicke generation : as it is set downe in the letter before mentioned . There is good hope ( saith the writer of it to one of his frends ) of one Maister Trauerse about London , ( as I thinke ) but howe farre hee is come , or whereat hee stayes , I cannot at this time certifie you . But howsoeuer hee standeth affected , you may assure your selues , that this latter schisme groweth on very fast . In somuch , that as Cartwright and his brethren beganne , eight or nine yeares since , to set vppe , and put in practise , theyr Geneuian discipline : so doe these newe vpstartes , beginne to erecte in diuerse places , theyr Barrowish Synagogues , and I knowe not what cages of franticke schismatickes . One Collins a man amongest them , not vnlearned ( as it seemeth ) doeth write in this sorte hereof . Ecclesia potenti eius dextra adiuta , &c. The church assisted with the mightie right hande of God , hath chosen ministers : Maister Iohnson for her pastor : Maister Greenwood for her Doctor : Maister Studly and Maister George Knife , for her Elders : Nicholas Lee and Christopher Browne for her Deacons . The other assembly also ( wherevnto are added , Iohn Nicholas : Thomas Michell : Iohn Barnes , and some others with mee . ) with Gods assistaunce , will beginne out of hand , to create vnto it selfe ministers .

And thus they goe on forward headlong , god knowes whether . I am perswaded , that if there be not good order taken in this behalf , there wil some mischief grow of it The number of them doth encrease daily more & more . And for the repressing of them ; it will not be sufficient ( in mine opinion ) to vse the ordinarie course by the ecclesiasticall censures or commission . For they are entered into a league amongest themselues , of all manner of secrecy for the not detecting one of another in any of their proceedinges , when by great chaunce some two or three are met with all . If you finde any writinges amongest them : you may thereby learne some thinge peraduenture : otherwise they will confesse nothinge . And offer them an oathe , not to accuse themselues , but to purge themselues ; and as witnesses , to signifie their knowledge in those pointes , they are to bee examined off , Rh. Test. act. 23. as touching other mens factes : they haue gotten the Iesuites doctrine ( as you may see it in their annotations vppon the Rhemish Testament , and amplifyed lately by Cartwright and his crue , ) that they may neyther accuse themselues , nor their brethren , for doynge of those thinges , which they allow off themselues . If their nomber should increase ; so as they mighte bee able to doe , and set vp what they list , according to one of their grounds . vz. without any longer stayinge for the Magistrate ; and so shoulde breake forth into open rebellion ; they might by no meanes be examined vpon their oathes , because they will say they haue done nothing , but what they were bound to doe ; and that therefore , they might detect no man , wherby to bring him , within the compasse of any law , for doing his duety .

But I will not enter into this matter : the cause I mentioned it , is the increasing of this schisme , and their league of fidelitie one to an other . I sayd the number of them would daily bee augmented : and you shall haue my reasons , why I thinke so . They are verily perswaded , that they holde almost nothing , but what Cartwright and his schollers haue taught them . One of them hath taken vppon him , to prooue the chiefest of their newe assertions , by their more auncient propositions . I like well ( saith Greenewood in a letter intercepted ) of the arguments you haue drawen against them from their own groundes . Againe : Surely it were a notable worke , and no doubt might doe much good in these times , for some one that God hath indued with sound iudgement and sharpe sight , to gather the maiors or antecedents , of all those scattered pamphlets of Penries or Martins &c. and put newe minors or conclusions vnto them : and so in one little nosegay , but as bigg as an almanack , to turne them vpon them-selues , and present them vnto them , for an answere .

There are two especiall points , for the which we dislike them : their departing from our churches , & the framinge to them-selues of a Church of their owne . And for both these points , heare what they may say , and what indeede in effect they doe say , and consider withall of these thinges , which here I will set downe : as sufficient matter for a minor , that Barrowe may worke vppon . Thus our holy consistorians haue written ; vz. That the gouernement of our Church is by the popishe a a Glby pa. 77. Hierarchy , & so is both b b Admon . 1. pa. 25. Antichristian and diuelishe , that it is accursed , and c c Hay any pa. 13. that none but traitors to God , doe defend it : that our d d Gilby pa. 90. religion is patched with the popes : wherby we ioine fire and water , heauen and hell together : that we want a e e Admon . 1. pa. 2. right ministerie : that in the order f f Adm. 1. pa. 24. of our seruice there is nothing but confusion : that we eate not the g g Gilby pa. 2. Lordes supper , but play a pageant of our own , to make the silly soules beleeue they haue an Englishe masse : & h h Gilby pa. 2. that so we put no difference betwixt truth and falshood , betwixt Christ and Antichrist , betwixt God and the Diuell . A dunghill of such like sayings , might be heaped together , which they haue cast vp , out of the froth of their zeale . Where-vpon nowe Barrowe , takinge his aduantage ; doth frame his argumente in this sorte . It is not lawfull for the children of God to submit themselues to the gouernement of Antichrist , nor to ioyne themselues , to those congregations , which haue in their seruice , nothing but confusion , and in the Lordes Supper put no difference betweene God and the Diuell . But such is the gouernement of the Church of England , and such are their congregations . And therefore wee may not submitt our selues vnto that gouernement , nor ioyne our selues to their congregations . If now , the minor were true , which he assumeth from the Consistorians : you see how the argument would follow . So that as Penry & some others haue done allready : let all the sort of the other crue adde but Barrowes maiors , vnto their owne minors : and foorthwith in this first pointe they are become meere Barrowistes .

And as concerning the second point wherein ( as I sayd ) we disalow them : it is , their framing to themselues a new Church platforme . Which doth thus farre agree with Cartwrightes : that they must haue ( forsoothe ) in euerie assembly , their Pastors , Doctors , Elders , and Deacons , and that the Church new framed after their fashion , must haue all the authority that Cartwright doth challenge to his Elderships : of dealing in all matters of maners and doctrine , and in executing their censures against any person without exception whosoeuer . The chiefe differences that are betwixt them , are generally two . The first is vz: that whereas Cartwright , could haue been contented to haue erected his Elderships in euery parishe , taking them as nowe they are : they say the parish assemblies are popish and vnlawfull : they would haue them dissolued : and they will haue their Elderships set vp amongest no people , but first they must enter into a new couenant . The other chiefe difference in like sorte I take to bee this : that Barrow in all his platforme , will haue the people to ioyne with their Elderships further , then Cartwright doth allow of . And for his opinion heerein hee relyeth altogether in effect vpon Cartwrightes grounds .

It is not vnknowen what a plausible course our English Disciplinarians haue taken , that thereby they might the more easily drawe the people vnto them . Hee that will peruse the first admonition , which Cartwright maintained , T. C. lib. 1. pa. 35. lib. 2. pag. 325.121.221.225.226.229 &c. and consider withall , the places of his bookes that are noted in the margent : shall well perceiue , howe earnestly they intitle the people to a wonderfull interest in Church matters . They tell the people , that they are greatly iniuried in this and that : that they ought to choose their Ministers : that imposition of handes should bee in their names : that the censures of the Churche were to bee executed with the peoples consent : and what must bee done almost , but the people must haue an oare in it . Howbeit : ( all this great shewe of gratifying the people notwithstanding : ) Cartwright by snatches heere and there doth so powder his matters : T. C. lib. 284.193.213 . &c. that in effect hee giueth them onely an emptie bottell to play withall . For his Eldership ( forsooth ) must go before the people in all their actions : that is , as though hee should haue said : what the Elderships thinke meete , those Angels , those interpreters of God , those tribunall seates of Christ , the people in all reason ought to content themselues with it , and to giue their consentes vnto it .

Now heereupon Barrow , proceedeth . Hee taketh Cartwrightes reasons in the behalfe of the people : but denieth his shiftes to be currant , whereby he would take that from them againe , which hee had before giuen vnto him . And thereupon doth raile vpon him , and all the rest of that association : for such their dealing and abusing of the people . These reformistes ( saith Barrow ) for fashion sake giue the people a little libertie to sweeten their mouthes , Bar. Discoue . pag. 195. and make them beleeue they should choose their owne Ministers : yet euen in this pretended choyce do they coozen and beguile them , leauing them nothing but the smoakie winde of election onely . Againe . The counterfait reformistes , they woulde exclude the Church from the censures : assuming them onely into their owne handes : either into the Priestes handes with his silly presbytery or Eldership , which hee ouerruleth at his pleasure in euery particular congregation : or else into their Synodes and Councelles , which haue power ouer all Churches , and euerie member and action thereof to excommunicate and absolue , to make & depose , to ordaine and abrogate without the priuitie or consent of the Churches , &c. And thus they subuert the libertie of the Church : and peruert the ordinance of Christ . And againe : Howe vnnaturall are those members , which thus separate and seclude themselues , Bar : against Giff. pag. 76. yea rather sequester and seclude the whole from them : and arrogate and assume the publicke dueties and power of the whole , into their owne handes : as though God had giuen all giftes vnto them : and they had no neede of others ? And thus puffed vp with preheminence of theyr owne place , and excellencie of their owne giftes : they despise all the rest , as base , ignoraunt , vnworthye to bee in their consistorie , to haue any voyces of consent or dissent there , alledging them to bee tumultuous , contentious , factious , vngouerned , ignoraunt , inclined to the worst , &c.

And this is ( as I said ) the second especiall difference ( as far as I can see ) betwixt the Elder Consistorians , and these new Schismaticks . Wherinto how easily a man may fall , that hath digested , the Geneuian and Cartwrightian pretences made against our Bishops for the peoples interest : I commit the consideration of it , to your owne discretions . So that ( as I saide ) : I say againe , and againe : that if good order be not taken , this schisme will daily increase and growe to be daungerous . But doe I call it a schisme ? The worde is too milde . They are indeed all the sorte of that infection , a compounded masse , of ( I knowe not ) how manie heresies : but principally they are Donatistes in some respect , and meere Anabaptistes in some other . I haue thought vpon it a hundreth times , and haue meruailed at it : that the now L. Archbishop of Canterbury could foresee so directly , what would be the issue of the first admonition . If you would bee pleased to read his exhortation , before his confutation of that admonition : You shall find , that , what he hath there written long before this monster was hatched in England , he could not , if he were to write againe , wel write otherwise then there he hath done : sauing hee might say , that the mischiefe which then he foresaw , would come to passe , by reason of the boulstring of it , by those , that should haue had more wit and iudgement , is now apparantly beginning to shew it selfe to as many as haue eyes and wisdome to see .

Surely those men , that haue bene made instruments heretofore , to commend vnto the whole realme , I know not what bookes and platforms , tending directly to the vtter ouerthrow of the present gouernment of the church of England , with the whole forme of our seruice of God , and all our lawes , orders , ceremonies , and priuileges thervnto appertaining , & to haue had the Geneua discipline established in place thereof : may greatly reioice at their good discretion : considering , that if then they had preuailed , we had admitted of that forme of church-gouernment which the very cheefe supplicators , & instigators of them at that time , do now themselues condemne ( as you haue heard ) into the pit of hell , and so they might haue bene as readie to haue set forward this second deuise , as they were for the former .

But men I hope will be more carefull hereafter , then to be carried away with euery noueltie , if it haue but any shew of reasonable probabilitie . And maister Cartwright , with the rest of his chiefe adherents , might certainly do God and the church great seruice , if without any longer standing vpon the maintainance of their own credits , they would be content to confesse their former ouersights , in laying downe those false principles , wherevpon the new hereticks do build , and acknowledge the truth , vz. that the present gouernment of the church of England , as both holy and Apostolicall , and that the reformation of religion already made , by her maiesties most princely care and heauenly direction , is such a reformation ( abuses there may be , and it were heresie to dreame of any puritie ) as euery good Christian ought to praise God for it , from the bottome of his heart : and not onely to allow of it , but to maintayne and defend it , both with his goods and life . Maister Cartwright began well in his epistle against Harrison : but he should do better if hee would so continue and proceede forward . One extremitie is best discerned by the other . Barrowes folly may teach him wisedome . The consequence doth often shew the grossenesse of the Antecedent . And many learned men haue bene brought by the importunitie of such kind of aduersaries , to see their own mistakings , and so to grow vnto a farre better moderation . As euen in the chapter following , and in this very cause of discipline , it will appeare I trust vnto you .

CAP. XXXIIII . Of their disagreement , concerning the necessitie of the Consistoriall gouernment .

IT were very hard , if the fauourers of the Geneua platforme , should vrge the same with any pretence of necessitie . They talke of pastors , doctors , elders , deacons , widdowes , and of many things els : but as yet , besides their obstinacie , to continue in the course which they haue begun , for the maintenance of their credits : they are not throughly agreed almost in any thing . To tell vs therfore of a matter that should be necessarie , and withall to confesse in effect , that they know not what it is : should argue in my opinion , some very great rashnesse and follie . When maister Caluin dealt with maister Bullinger and others , for their good fauour and friendship towards the continuance of his new deuised platforme in Geneua ( as you haue heard at large in the second chapter ) there was not a word ( you may sweare it ) of any necessitie , that all oother churches should be enforced to submit themselues to that deuise . M. Caluin himselfe at that time ( as I am persuaded ) did not so much as dreame of any such matter . A very graue and learned man of the French nation , hath faythfully reported , that when the forme of the Geneua discipline , was first admitted of by the ministers of France , in one of their cheefest synods , which hath bene kept there of late yeares about the Church affaires , it was not then receaued by them in that assemblie , as a necessary order prescribed by Christ , that ought alwaies to be continued , but as a forme of discipline , conuenient and fit for the afflicted estate of their churches in those times , which might afterwards bee altered and changed , as occasions should require .

And because you might not doubt of the certayntie of this report . You shall vnderstand , that the author of it was himselfe present in the sayd assemblie , and not a man of the meanest account amongst them . With whom also , another great person of that countrie , a man of state and great learning agreed , when hee affirmed to one of very good place in England ( as the same partie hath told me ) that the forme of discipline which is now receaued by the French ministers , was neuer meant by them to be otherwise admitted of , then for an interim , till things might be better considered of , and ordered . These testimonies I vrge no further then as reports : neyther would I haue you to giue any further credit vnto them : then as you shall thinke meet , vpon this my bare relation . Howbeit whether the persons specified , did make any such report or not : it seemeth to mee , that the thing it selfe is true , which they are sayd to haue reported . For thus I find it set downe in the end of the forme of Ecclesiasticall discipline agreed vpon by the resolution , Eccl. disc. of France . not of one , but of fiue generall Synods of the reformed Churches of the realme of Fraunce . These articles ( say they ) which are here contayned touching discipline , are not so decreed vpon amongst vs , but if the profite of the church shall require , they may bee chaunged . But it shall not bee in the power of one priuate man to do it , without the aduise and consent of a generall councell .

In all maister Caluins time ( for ought I find ) the necessitie which now is pretended for the consistoriall discipline : was no where insisted vpon . A church in those daies , might haue had all the true notes of the church of Christ : although it had wanted that platforme of Geneua . Maister Caluin in his Institutions could find but two necessary Simbola ecclesiae dignoscendae , Calu. instit . lib. 4. cap. ● . sect. 9.10 . verbi predicationem , & sacramentorum obseruationem : signes of discerning the church : the preaching of the word , and the obseruation of the sacraments . Bertrand de Loque in like sort : he was able to bring forth no other substantiall notes of the Church : Bertr . de ec . cap. 3. but those two . No more was Philip of Mornay , the lord of Plessis . He maketh mention indeed of a third marke , vz. the lawfull vocation of pastors : but hee sayth , that , P. Mar. de eccl. cap. 2. it is not a marke of substance . In the great assemblie at Poictiers in France , 1561 , where Peter Martir , A Marlorat , N. Galatius , and diuers other ministers of the reformed churches were present : maister Beza being there also , and hauing his turne to speake before the king of Fraunce , the queene of Nauarre , the cardinall of Lorraine , and sundrie other bishops hee , durst not insist vpon any other firme and certaine notes of the visible Church of Christ , Comment. de sta. relig. par. 1. fol. 121. but the two notes mentioned purum dei verbum & sincera sacramentorum administratio , the pure word of God , and the sincere administration of the sacraments . There are ( sayth hee ) some that do adde ecclesiasticall discipline , and the fruits of preaching : sed , &c. duabus illis erimus contenti : but , &c. we will bee content with these two first . Agreeably to this doctrine , that there are but two necessarie and substantiall marks of the church : the cheefest learned men in Christendome both abroad and here at home with vs , haue entred into the combat , with the cruell and mortall enemies of true Religion , the papists .

But now it is found out by maister Beza , and some others ( forsooth ) that all the sayd learned men were deceaued , and that the platforme of the Geneua discipline , is an essentiall note of the church of Christ , and as necessary as the word of sacraments . If I should deliuer these two points vnto you vpon my bare word , without any further proofe , I thinke you would scarsely beleeue me . Heare therefore my witnesses , not to be excepted against I tell you . And first for the pretended necessitie , maister Beza shewing the true markes of the church ( saith Cartwright ) addeth to the two former , T. C. lib. 2. pa. 53. the discipline framed according to the word . Conf. 5.7 So that whatsoeuer necessitie commeth vnto the word and sacraments , in that they are notes , the same commeth also vnto the discipline by maister Bezaes iudgement . And surely that is sufficient . Hee were a presumptuous companion , that would not rest in Bezaes iudgement . Well then you see the necessitie of their discipline , now marke the essentialitie of it . In a certaine draught of discipline ( whereof you shall heare in the Chapter ) agreed vpon , and subscribed vnto , by Cartwright , and many other ministers of his bent , for a conclusion of that worke , they haue set downe these words . Atque haec disciplina , The new booke of dis. &c. And this discipline , the title whereof is inscribed : The discipline of the church described in the word of God , is taken out of the most pure fountains of the holy scriptures , and c omprehendeth the necessarie , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , that is , essentiall discipline of the church , common for al times . Take that away from any thing , that which is of the essence and being of it , and ( as I take it ) it presently ceaseth to haue any being at all .

From the conceit of this necessitie of the Geneua discipline , these and many other such like speeches , haue bene vttered in printed bookes , to the simple people .

The a a T. C. l. 2. in the preface . want of the Eldership is the cause of all euill .

It is not b b T. C. ibid p. 3. to be hoped for , that any Common-wealth will flourish without it .

The c c T. C. l. 1. pa. 6. & 48. discipline is no small part of the gospell .

It is of the d d T. C. l. 2. pa. 247. substance of it .

Without this e e Register pa. 68. discipline there can be no right religion .

They that f f T. C , l. 1. pa. 220. reiect this discipline , refuse to haue Christ raigne ouer them . And denie him in g g T. C. table . Preface to the Demon. effect , to be their king or their Lord .

Scis , &c. you h h Beza . to Sarnicius . epis. 14. know there is one and the selfe same author of doctrine and discipline , to what purpose therefore should we receiue one part of the word without the other ?

In some sense of i i Defenc. of eccl. dis. p. 7. necessarie , the ecclesiasticall discipline is necessary to saluation .

It is necessarie k k Defence . 8. in regard of Gods holy ordinance and appointment , the contemptuous breach of whose commandements , be they great or little in our account , is damnable to all those that despise them .

For l l Ibid. pa. 33. the vse of the censures , the office of elders is in his place necessarie . The deacons office is not so directly tending to the saluation of the soule . But yet being Gods ordinance , it is of the necessitie of obedience .

In effect , the m m Ibid. pa. 33. ministerie of the censures of the church , is in the same absolute degree of necessitie to saluation with the ministerie of the word and sacraments .

It is much that hath bene hitherto noted for the pretended necessitie of this Sauoyan church-gouernment : but that is most memorable that Trauers affirmeth of the French churches , & of the churches of the low-countries , vz. in effect that it is become alreadie to be one of the articles of their creed . Thus he setteth downe their words following , contayned ( as hee sayth ) in their confessions . We beleeue the true Church ought to bee gouerned by that policie and discipline which our Lord Iesus Christ hath ordayned , Confess fidei minist. Gal. Act. 25. namely so that , there bee in that , Pastors , elders , and deacons . And the Churches of the Low-countries : We beleeue that this true church ought to be ruled and gouerned by that spirituall policie , which God himselfe hath taught vs by his word : Act. 30. so as there bee in it , pastors and Ministers , Elders and Deacons , who may make the Seigniorie of the Church . By that which here is sayd , being compared with that which hath bene sayd before , of our Englishmens pretended deacons ( how they are altogether excluded from hauing any place in their seigniorie ) it appeareth that they disagree from the Churches of Fraunce , and of the Low-countries , in some of the articles of their beleefe . But you shall heare maister Trauers very graue collections vpon the sayd two of those Churches confessions : It is very worthie the obseruation ( sayth he ) that these Churches , Def. of eccl. Discip. p. 21. wherein there are an infinite number of godly men , &c. in such a confession as they declare their fayth in : haue thought it a necessarie article , to set downe this point of the pollicie or discipline of the church : and that in declaring of it ▪ they say not what they suppose , but what they beleeue , vsing the same word which they do vse in the articles of faith and doctrine .

The papists talke much of the Colliers faith , that beleeued as the Church beleeued : but what the church beleeued hee knew not . And truly as Trauers sayth , it is worthy the obseruation indeed , that seing ( as I sayd , and haue at large shewed it in the former chapters ) there is not a church in Europe , which hath receaued that platforme , that can tell for her life , which way as yet to turne her selfe , for the full maintainance of it : there should bee any that would presume to thrust it into their beleefe , except they do approue of the Colliers faith , and will say , they beleeue whatsoeuer maister Beza beleeueth , although neyther he himselfe , nor they do know , what hee beleeueth in that point . I do rather therefore incline to thinke that Trauers wresteth their words against their meaning , and that they only purposed by that phrase of speech ( we beleeue ) to shew , but their minds and opinions of that forme of discipline , not suspecting that any man would inforce that they euer meant therby to make it an article of their beleefe . But howsoeuer either they or any other haue formerly meant in the heat of their desires , towards their beloued platform , and so haue gone much too far in vrging the necessitie of it , as being an essentiall note of the church : yet vpon better aduise , it seemeth that they are growne a little more coole .

Maister Caluin loued the eldership as well as the best of them , because it was the workmanship of his own hands : but yet he thought it not meet , to make it an essential note of the church , or a matter of the importance of saluation . The Anabaptists with whom he dealt in his time , Cal. instruct . ad v. Anaba . kept him from that extremitie , and made him to reuerence other churches , and to acknowledge them for such churches of Christ , although they wanted the forme of his censuring discipline , as that it was not lawfull for any Christian whosoeuer , to separat himselfe either from their assemblies , or from the receiuing of the Lords supper with them . But if any so did , he assigneth him his place amongst certain old hereticks . Olim duae fuerunt haereticorum sectae , &c. In times past there were ( sayth he ) two sorts of hereticks , which troubled the Church greatly . The one sort of them were called Puritans , the other Donatists . And both of them were in the same error , that these dreamers are in : seeking for a Church wherein there should want nothing that might be desired . Therefore they diuided themselues from the vniuersall society of Christians , least they should be defiled with other mens impurities . But what came of it ? Dominus eos cum tam arroganticoepto dissipauit . The Lord himselfe scattered them , with that their proud attempt , Where , by the way , it is meet to be obserued , that a man may sticke so fast to the Geneua discipline , as he may prooue himselfe to bee either a puritane , or a Donatist , or both .

Maister Beza in like maner , by reason of some opposition which hath bene made against the Sauoyan platforme , is growne as it seemeth to some kind of moderation . For speaking of the pretended necessitie of it : hee sayth , that the doctrine onely , Bez. de pres . pa. 119. vz. what we are to beleeue , is absolutely necessarie : and also further addeth , that seeing a man sometimes may be saued without the participation of the sacraments : the same may bee sayd much more of the want of ecclesiasticall discipline . Now verely we are to thanke him , he hath done much for vs . We may be saued though the memorie of this discipline were vtterly buried . But the point which I chiefely note , is this : that there is great difference in maister Bezaes iudgement , betwixt the necessitie of the first two notes of the church , and this third , of his own deuise . And therein he giueth in effect , the flat lye to maister Cartwright , for charging him to hold : that all the said 3 notes , as they are notes , were equally necessarie . And Trauers also is checked by his good maister , in that he wil needs make , as it hath bene said , the censures of his consistories , to be in the same absolute degree of necessity , both with the word and sacraments . But I wil follow M. Beza whilest I haue him in his good mood . The whole church wanted circumcision in the wildernes ( saith he ) & whilest they were in Babylon , they neither had temple nor sacrifices , and yet neuerthelesse , they ceassed not to be the people of God . And the same may then be said much more of the ecclesiastical discipline , vz. Ecclesias vt illa careant , tamen ecclesias verè pias & Christianas esse posse , si doctrinam praecipuorum dogmatum puram ac sinceram habuerint , That the churches that want that discipline , may notwithstanding bee indeed godly and Christian churches , if they retaine the doctrine of the cheefest grounds , pure and sincere . Now if Beza will giue this testimonie of a church that wanteth both his discipline and the sacraments , hauing but only the principall grounds of religion : what should he say of those churches which haue not onely a better discipline , then that which hee vrgeth : but also the said sincere grounds , with the doctrine & true vse of both the holy sacraments , in as great reuerence , at the least , as they haue them at Geneua ? You shall heare him what he is driuen to say , of the present estate of the church of England . The places haue bene cited in the eight chapter to another purpose . He must be pardoned to come in with his If : because any thing from him , that soundeth not after the Geneua tune , Beza contr. Sarrau . pa. 111. is very much . But if the churches of England ( sayth he ) being vnderpropped with the authoritie of Bishops and Archbishops do firmely abide , as this hath happened in our memorie to that church , that shee hath had men of that order , not onely worthie Martyrs of God , but most singular pastors and doctors : fruatur sane ista singulari Dei beneficentia , quae vtinam illi sit perpetua , Let her enioy this singular goodnesse of God , which I pray shee may so do for euer . And in another place , speaking likewise with some good tearmes of the Church of England , and of our Archbishops and Bishops : he turneth himselfe cleane about , Beza ibid. pa. 127. and sayth , that they of Geneua do not prescribe to any church to follow their peculiar example , like vnto ignorant men , who thinke nothing well but that they do themselues .

Againe also the same maister Beza , in his booke which Erastus confuted , not in that which Beza hath since published , but in the written and true copie of it , he speaketh in this sort , Nomine ecclesia Geneuensis , in the name of the church of Geneua , to those that account the Geneuian Eldership to be but humanum commentum , a humane deuise : Beza cont. Erast. fol. 1. Petimus vt quemadmodum patienter ferimus ipsos a nobis , &c. dissentire : We desire of them , that as we suffer them patiently to dissent from vs , &c. so they would heare vs , modestly refelling their arguments , nullo cum ecclesiarum preiudicio , quas sibi credit as administrant : Without any preiudice to those churches , that they haue taken the charge of . For where some do obiect , that we account those churches , that want either excommunication , or such an eldership , to be no churches : it is obiected , immerito , Deus testis est , vndeseruedly on our parts , God is our witnesse : and it is much more a slander , where it is giuen out , that we do bring a new tyrannie into the church , & nostra velle reliquis obtrudere : and endeuor to obtrude our forme of discipline vnto the rest of the reformed churches . Non est ita fratres : It is not so brethren . Furthermore in like manner in the same place afterward : Ibid. Quicunque vero hanc disciplinam in suis ecclesiis , non modo inutilem , verumetiam noxiam fore iudicant , fruantur sane suo sensu , &c. Whosoeuer do iudge this discipline not only vnprofitable but hurtfull to their churches : let them enioy their own sense . They vndoubtedly do see what their flocks will indure , neither doubt we , but that men of so great learning , and of so great antiquitie , our reuerend bretheren in the Lord , haue their reasons : Et quis nos constituit alieni gregis iudices ? And who hath made vs iudges of other mens flocks ?

He seldome hath vttered a truer speech . But how these sayings do agree with that which he hath sayd before in the third chapter , you may not curiously scanne it . Indeed he should seeme to be farre now from his former opinion , when he sayd in effect : Epis. 24. That it was to little purpose for any church to admit of the gospell , and to reiect his discipline . But he writeth in mine opinion , as ( it hath bene sayd of old time ) some courtiers in the world do vse to speake : that is for the most part , as the present occasion serueth their turnes . Such companie they may fal into , as they wil commend him to the skies , whom not past an hower before , they had in an other company depraued peraduenture most egregiously . And maister Beza , you must imagine , hath bene an old courtier , and knoweth wel what policie meaneth . Plaine dealing certainly is best : but often-times it falleth out that it is not the readiest way , for hammering and busie farre reaching heads , to compasse their purposes . If this excuse do seeme too simple , let any that list make a better . No man doth wish it more heartily ( as I thinke ) then my selfe , that maister Beza should thinke well of the present church-gouernment established in England : so he do it plainly , faithfully , and directly , which will not happen ( I feare it ) in hast . Neither haue I alleaged his former words to that purpose , as though I tooke all that for gold , which he can make to glister . The point I prosecute , is this : that you might perceaue , how they begin to leaue off from vrging the Geneuian platforme , with such important necessitie , as formerly they haue done .

But most of all it pleaseth me to see , how maister Cartwright draweth homeward . For as the Anabaptists by their madnesse kept maister Caluin within some good compas , and as maister Beza hath bene compelled in some sort , to retire himselfe from his former eagernesse : so assuredly the phrenetical giddinesse of these our new vnbrideled schismatickes , who for pretended puritie are many degrees beyond al the Sauoyan disciplinarians , hath wrought a miracle ( to my vnderstanding ) vpon M. Cartwright . For heare him , how for feare of falling into flat Donatisme , he was fain to plead against one ( that had bene his scholer ) in the behalfe of the church of England , so bitterly before by himselfe impugned . Th. Cartw. to Harrison . The ordinarie assemblies ( sayth he ) of those which professe the gospell in England , are the churches of Christ : which he proueth in this sort . Those assemblies which haue Christ for their head , and the same also for their foundation , are Gods churches . Such are the assemblies of England , therefore , &c. Againe , they that haue performed vnto them the speciall couenant which the Lord hath made with his churches , of pouring his spirit vpon them , and putting his word into their mouthes are the churches of God : but such are the assemblies in England , therefore , &c. Hereunto may be added ( sayth he further ) the iudgement of all the churches of Christ in Europe , all which giue the right hand of societie in the house of God , vnto the assemblies which are in England . Againe , to prooue that the church of England is the church of God , notwithstanding it want the pretended discipline : he vseth this distinction : that as it is in mans body , so is it in this matter , there are certaine parts essentiall , and such as without the which a man cannot stand , and some seruing either to his comlinesse , or to his continuance . And of this latter sort he maketh the discipline , and lastly he writeth thus : To say that the church of England is not the church of God , because it hath not receaued this discipline , me thinks is all one with this , as if a man would say , It is no citie , because it hath no wall : or that it is no vineyard , because it hath neither hedge nor ditch . Thus farre maister Cartwright .

In which his manner of speech , you find a very great alteration , from his ancient stile . And as concerning the necessitie whereof I intreat , the wind you see is turned . There is no more necessity in England of the Geneua platforme , then that euery citie in this realme should be walled about . And besides , the pretended discipline is become not to be any longer of the essence of the church , but as appertaining to the comlinesse of it . But how these things will accord with the premises , & namely his subscription before mentioned , to the new booke of discipline , where the same discipline is made to be essentiall , or whether maister Cartwright hath changed his iudgement againe , since he writ that answer to Harrison : I will leaue it to be discussed by them that know his vnreuealed mind better then I do . In the meane time , that which he hath graunted , I thinke it meet to take hold of . And this I will adde vnto it , that if maister Cartwright would but conferre with some that haue skill in fortification , to know of him whether an old thicke wall of lime and stone , made many hundred yeares since , or a new sleight wall slubbered ouer , and wrought with vntempered morter some few yeres ago , whether ( I say ) of these 2 walles are of better defence for any citie : I should be in good hope , that he would in short time , leaue the disciplinarie walles of Geneua , and content himselfe with the ancient fortifications of the church of England , and the rather because he seeth ( as I sayd in the former chapter ) what a giddie and itching humor , his nouelties haue bred , in the vnstayed sort of many fantasticall people .

CAP. XXXV . Of the pretended commoditie that the elderships would bring with them , and of the small fruits that they bring sorth where they are .

THat which hath bene sayd of the commendation of this pretended regiment , may fitly be applied to this place . But now further of the commodities , which they say it would bring with it : inseparable consequents ( belike ) thereof . I will trouble you only with three mens testimonies , who it seemeth haue collected together that which is thought fit to be published to this purpose . If we a a Motion pa. 31. had this gouernment , God would blesse our victuals , and satisfie our poore with bread : hee would cloath our priests with saluation , and his saints should shout for ioy . It b b Pa. 27. is best and surest for our state , and there is nothing comparable to c c Pa. 59. the establishing of it for her maiesties safetie . It would d d Pa. 75. make men to increase in wealth , and that e e Pa. 76. they would not easily be drawne after any great man to sedition and rebellion . That her f f P. 33. Maiesties person hath bene so oft in danger ; that we haue had some dearth of late yeares ; and that the Spaniards attempted to inuade this land ; they ascribe it to the want of this their gouernment . It g g Pa 74. would cut off contentions and sutes of law , &c. by censuring the partie that is troublesome and contentious , and without reasonable cause , vpon euill will and stomacke should vex and molest his brother and trouble the countrie . If this gouernment were restored , then you should see h h Pa. 64. learning nourished , young and olde called from blindnes to light , from wickednes to vertue and pietie . Then many woulde change i i pa. 37. their studies from Law , Phisicke , Musicke , scholing , &c. and manye would leaue their trades , and parentes would thinke theyr cost well bestowed , and diuerse waies comforted to preferre their children to the studie of Diuinity . Then there k k pa. 84. woulde be an vnity of the Church . Then should the Papist quaile , the Anabaptist waile , and the Atheistes be amazed . There l l pa. 59. could not bee so many seduced hanged and quartered as there are . Then no m m pa. 68. licences could steale away mens daughters , the people should finde out the trueth and perfection of Iustice .

By this the n n pa. 91. wealth and honour of the Realme woulde be encreased : and contentions , brawles , and vnnecessary pleas would be preuented : idle men of all sortes might be sette in order , and the poore men greatly comforted . The nobility o o pa. 91. and comminalty might haue their right . Men would p p pa. 76. not grudge at triflinge charges for Warre . Souldiers q q pa. 77. woulde bee made obedient to their Captaines : patient r r pa. 78. and couragious . It s s pa. 79. woulde bring strength and victorie : and keepe t t pa. 91. out of Kinges Dominions , ignoraunt , wicked and flattering men .

Here out of the defence of Ecclesiasticall gouernement . Pag. 121. 122. 123. 127. 134.

Whereof u u C. l. 2. Epi. commeth it that Arrians , Valentinians , and Anabaptistes , with other detestable Heretiques are so rise in many places in this land ? is it not thereof that there is no Eldership ? Whereof commeth it , that horrible blaspheming the holye and most reuerend name of God , quarrelling and fighting , dronkennes , filthy speaking , fornication , adultery , slaundering and such like , runne ouer almost in euery place ? Is it not hereof , that there is no Eldership ? Whereof commeth it that in so many excellent lawes prouided against rogues and beggers : there are yet such numbers ? is it not hereof that the office of Deacons is abolished ?

These are singular commodities indeede which these Elderships woulde bring with them , if these men might be trusted . But haue they brought forth these fruicts and effectes in those countries where they are established ? or are they but vaine wordes of ambitious men , that by such godly pretences doe little else but seeke their owne glory ? Consider I pray you , what very learned and graue men haue written in other countries of these , and such like men as these and their fellowes are : together with the estate of some of those countreis , wher they haue their Elderships .

Maister Bullinger writing to a Bishop in England of our English innouators , A letter Mar. 10. 1574 saith thus . They imitate in mine opinion those seditious Tribunes of Rome , who by vertue of the Agrarian Lawe , bestowed the publicke goods , that they might priuately inritch themselues : that is , that you ( meaning the Bishops ) being ouerthrowen , they might succeede in your places , &c. But they goe about to erect a Church which they shall neuer aduaunce as they desire : neither if they shoulde , can they euer be able to continue it . And after in the same Letter . I woulde to God , there were not in the Authors of this Presbytery , libido dominandi , an ambitious desire of rule and principality : Nay I thinke it ought especially to be prouided for ; that there be not any high authoritye giuen to this Presbytery , &c. Whereof manie thinges might bee saide : but time will reueale many thinges which yet lie hidde .

Maister Gualter in like sorte , writeth thus to the Bishop of London , for the time being . Many doe vrge in these daies vnder a plausible name of Ecclesiasticall Discipline , I know not what a platforme , without the which they denie that any Churches can continue . But I doe greatly feare least they bringe vs in an Aristocratie , which will shortly degenerate into an Oligarchie : and become the beginning of a newe Papacie . For their onely labour is to sette vs vp a Presbyterie , whereinto certaine honest men , are indeede admitted : but yet so as the Ministers will doe in a manner what they list . It was of late decreed by the Ministers at Heidelberge , that no man should bee admitted to the Lords Supper : except he first offered himselfe to the Pastor . For Paules rule is not helde sufficient there : vz. that euerie man should trie himselfe . The Elders did not agree to this decree : but yet notwithstading it is vrged in the name of the Presbytery , nay of the whole Church &c. But there was not long since suche an example of a new tyrannie there , as may iustlie feare anie , that careth for the liberty of the Church . There is there an Heluetian the Gouernour of the Colledge of Saint Denis , as innocent and godly a man as liueth . Howbeit Oleuianus the Pastor warned him by the crier of the Presbyterie , in the name of all the Elders , that he should not come to the Lordes Supper : adding this cause , that he could not admit him , absque animi sui offensione , without the offence of his minde . The party tooke this dealing ( as it was reason ) in euill part : and desireth to know what he hath committed that deserued such a punishment . But they answered him not otherwise , then that they continued in the same minde . Whereuppon he offered a Supplication vnto the prince Elector , that he would compell them to shewe the fault , if there were any , that he had committed . But vntill this daie he coulde extort nothing else in effect from them . This is their goodly order : this is their Discipline . Quare video nobis seriò vigilandum esse , ne ex Romanae hydrae vix domitae vulneribus noua capita pullulent : wherefore I see we are to be vigilant , least new heads doe budde out of the woundes of the Romish hydra , scarsely yet subdued .

And in another letter , Marche 16. 1574. to the Bishop of Ely , of the same matter he addeth : that the Prince Elector vppon the said parties complaint , did moue the Elders to shew , what hee had committed that they dealt so with him . Sed ne hoc ab illis impetrare potuit : but he could not preuaile so much . Marry at the last ( saith Maister Gualter ) being many waies more earnestly vrged thereunto , they fell to coining of lies , and perswaded the Prince that he abstained from the Lords supper of his own accord : and now of that his voluntary forbearing woulde knowe the cause of them . Many such things are done which it woulde be too long to rehearse . Seeing they beginne in this sorte , hauing not as yet any full possession of their new kingdom , what shall we thinke they will doe : si merum imperium obtineant , if they obtaine an absolute authority ? By this letter also it seemeth , that long since , by Oecolampadius meanes , notwithstandinge Zwinglius withstood it : there was such a like forme of regiment erected in Basill : but shortly after ( saieth Maister Gualter ) he was compelled to giue it ouer againe , learning by experience that he had attempted a matter of greater discommodity then profite . I cannot therefore dislike of them , that oppose themselues to these endeuours , who so busily in these daies pleade this for matter , &c. There are in Germanie , and in another certaine pl●●e ( hee meaneth I thinke Geneua ) that denie the kingdome of Christ canne continue , except the Discipline which they haue deuised be receaued in euery place . I doc containe my selfe that I may not bee saide to haue begonne the fight : Sin illi Classicum cecinerint , but if they sound vp the Alarum , I cannot choose but defend the doctrine of truth , and the libertie of the Church : not doubting but that many will ioyne with mee herein .

The same Gualter also again in another letter to the said Bishop of Ely . 26 August . 1574. I shall not neede to vse many wordes what I thinke of your innouators , sith I haue done it in my last Letters . And surely I am greatlie confirmed in my former opinion , by the examples , which such like innouators in Germany doe bring forth . Video enim illis hominibus nihil ambitiosius , nihil insolentius , nihil ineptius , fingi posse . For whereas there are many thinges most wickedly done by them daily , yet they are not ashamed to pretende the zeale of God , in excuse of those thinges , which contrarie to the worde of God they deuise both wickedly and maliciouslie against the seruauntes of Christ . But as farre as I canne coniecture : many by whose counsaile and assistaunce the frame of this Discipline was chiefely erected , are nowe ashamed of them .

But that which Maister Gualter writte the same yeare to Bishop Sands , is most pertinent . I vnderstand that the strife amongest you , procured by certain turbulent innouators , doth wax hotte , and that they are gone so farre , that vnder the plausible title of good order and Discipline , they desire the whole gouernement and pollicy of the Church of England to be vtterly ouerthrowen . Surely I should meruaile at the immodesty and wilfull desire of contention in these men : but that I see the same in practise else-where , especiallie in all those places where the authority of the bretheren of Geneua is so greatly esteemed , that Geneua is accounted the Oracle of all Christendome . God hath indeed adorned that Church with diuerse excellent gifts , : and the Ministers thereof : amongest whom , Maister Beza I haue alwaies reuerenced and loued , and doe so still . But yet I would wish them modestiùs & humiliùs sapere , and not seeke to draw their shooe vppon euery mans foote , &c. What hath beene done in the Palsegraues Countrey , I writte vnto you before . Surely the state there as touching Discipline , and the gouernement of the Church , all men that come thence doe say , it is worse then it was before , and it is sure , that many doe repent that they euer admitted these mens counsaile . But yet the Geneuians doc still endeuour to thrust that their Discipline vppon all Churches . And if they shall deny this , they may bee sufficiently conuinced by the Booke of Theologicall examples , that Beza published this other yeare : that they suggest their arguments and councels not onelye to you Englishmen , but in like sorte to the Germans , Phrisians , Polonians and Hungarians : whereby amongest those that agreede well together before , rixae & turbae enascuntur , brawlings and quarrels doe arise , &c. And so hauing signified what troubles the innouators beyond the seas as well as in England doe procure to the Church , he moueth the Bishop to doe as he and Maister Bullinger did : that is , to moderat such busie wittes ( as they might ) for a time . For ( saith he ) spero aedificium hoc nouae Disciplinae breui propria mole ruiturum , quando satis constat , iam eius pertaesos esse , qui priús illud admirabantur . I hope the frame of this new Discipline , will in short time fall , of it selfe : considering that many are nowe become wearie of it , that had it , before in admiration .

An other likewise , a Gantois , a very graue and learned man , as well acquainted with this Discipline , as Maister Cartwright is : being desired to write his opinion , whether it had brought forth such effectes in Holland , as is before pretended it would doe in England , for aunswere saieth . Is any man able to repeate the monstrous Heresies and errors , that Holland doth nourishe &c. vnder the shadowe of reformed religion ? this is aimed at , vz. that the turpitude of all blasphemies , being couered with this cloake , may lie hid , and that it may be lawfull without controlement , if anie list to recall the old Paganisme , or to professe Mahomets Religion , or what worse is , if there be anie thing worse . Againe , the Magistrates haue inuaded the Church-goods . The Ministers haue little allowaunce . There is no respect of the study of Diuinitie . The Magistrates doe suspect the forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernement : first becāuse they feare , least it will degenerate into a worse tyrannie then the Spanishe Inquisition : Secondly , for that they see a new Senat of Elders in their Townes , to exercise with the Ministers , a censure of manners without lawes , but such as they make themselues , and without anie lawfull forme of Iustice . The olde Canon law is abrogated , and the Magistrates will allow no new . For they feare , that the new would prooue worse then the olde . Besides , they will not committe the fame of themselues and theirs , to the arbitrement of ignoraunt men , such as for the most parte their Elders are , who may abuse their authority rashly , and laie such an infamy of adulterie or other grieuous offence vpon a mans backe , as hee shall not afterwards easily cast from him . The Ministers desire , that the Magistrates would punish those that disobey their commaundements : which they will neuer doe , except they may first by due course of law heare the cause , they of that Consistory being either actors or accusers : and that , the Ministers and Elders refuse to doe , &c. Besides , some of the Ministers themselues that professe the Gospell , are not free from those swarmes of Heresie , which doe make their hiues there , &c.

And in an other letter , speakinge of the generall euent of that kinde of discipline : Vereor ne exemplum Geneuensis ecclesiae , et quarundam aliarum ecclesiarum quae eam secutae sunt , maiorem quàm vulgo creditur perniciem ecclesiae adferat : I feare least the example of the church of Geneua , and some other Churches that followe her , may bring greater mischiefe to the Church , then is commonly beleeued .

One William Hart a minister , & the preacher , not long since at Emden , notwithstandinge all their goodly reformation in those partes , yet writ in this sort therof , vnto his secret friend M. Field . Corruption by custome is so strong , that none can abide the yoake , and wonder you would , if you sawe what grosse thinges the best ministers doe cleane deuoure , and those of the middle sort , doe earnestly stande and pleade for . If you did see the confused state of the Churches of these countries : you would say that England , ( howe badde soeuer ) were a paradise in comparison : and yet I haue not forgotten the blots and wantes thereof . The trueth which he speaketh of the Church of England , is to bee imbraced : for the rest , you may ascribe it vnto his factious humors .

Furthermore also , there are some other countries not yet mentioned , where the pretended discipline is in practise : and yet there are noe such fruites founde thereof , as are ascribed vnto the intertainement of it . Be pleased to heare what an espetiall man of some one countrie , a minister , a gentleman greatly descended , a person of chiefe aestimation , hath published to the worlde in print , Cum priuilegio Regali : and procured to be sent abroade into other countries , in certaine of his seruauntes names .

The a a Ser. 3. prophane multitude of this kingdom : they b b Ser. 4. disdain the word spitefully . There c c Ser. 4. are two sins ioyned in the prophane multitude , glottony and bloud : They d d Ser. 4. go forward in all course of sin , the more they are forbidden . They make e e Ser. 4. no account of the death of Christ . They are f f Ser. 1. in Psalm. 76. altogether godlesse .

The Church g g Ser. 1. is made a pray to all men , there is such disdain and contempt of the worde in the whole estate . Confusion h h Ser. 3. of Church and pollicie doth grow from day to day : and i i Ser. 1. in Psal. 76. threatneth vtter extermination . It is k k Serm. 5. the Lord that woonderfully continueth the light amongest vs , and that keepeth the face of a ministerie in Scotland . There is no good entertainment , but a very great pouertie in the most part of all the ministerie . The greatest part l l Ser. in Psal. 76. of our Priestes , our Ministers , their mouthes haue lost the trueth , and their persons haue lost their reuerence : the Lord hath made them contemptible in the eyes of men .

Floudes m m Serm. 1. of iniquitie doe flow ouer great men : There is no great man , but whatsoeuer liketh him , hee thinketh it lawfull . The Gentlemen , n n Serm. 5. Earles , Lordes , and Barons , they are so dronke with sacrilege , that before they part with that geare , they had rather part with the life of their soules : they had rather loose their soules a hundreth times , then bestowe a halfepeny vppon the Church . Our o o Serm. 6. owne meane Lordes doe fall into such proud contempt , that they are readie to take vp open warres agaynst God : so as that Iulian was no greater professed ennemy , then they are like to be if they continue . The great p p Ser. 1. in Psal. 76 men in this country , are become companions to Theeues and pirates , oppressors and manifest blasphemours of God and man : ye see murther , oppression , and bloud is the onely thing , that they shoote and marke at . The Lord q q Serm. 1. in Psal. 76. hath no greater enemies , then the great men , in this country , &c. They are burning , and scalding , slaying , and murdering , vsing all kinde of oppression and raging , so as if there were no king in Israel .

And generally thus . This a a Serm. 1. countrey is heauily diseased . The sinnes b b Serm. 2. of the land craueth , that all pulpits sound iudgement . If you c c Serm. 2. looke to the growth of sinne : more vgly sinnes were neuer committed . The land d d Serm. 3. is ouerburdened , with the birth of iniquitie . The e e Serm. 3. best haue taken a lothing of the word of God . The waight f f Serm. 6. of Gods wrath , that hangeth ouer this land , is insupportable . O vnhappy g g Serm. 6. and wrathfull countrey , &c: the more that knowledge groweth , conscience decayeth . See h h Serm. 6. ye not slaughter in great measure , oppression , murther without mercy ? see ye not all law and equitie trampled vnder foote ? Is there i i Serm. in psalm . 76. any cleane place in the countrey , &c: without the cries and lamentable voices of terrible murther , oppression and bloud ? The most k k Serm. in psalm . 76. part of this countrey , is giuen ouer to a straunge delusion : to preferre the leauen of the Pharises and dregges of papistry before the word of God . There is l l Serm. 6. none that seeth the confusion of this countrey to grow so fast : that can looke for anie redresse in his owne time : all runneth on to a desolation and miserable confusion . Faith is m m Serm. 1 in psal. 76. scarsly to bee found ; yea not faith in promises : let be faith in Christ Iesus . God hath n n Serm. 5. giuen vs ouer to be deceaued by the mightie power and working of the diuell .

Hitherto this learned preacher : Whereby a man may see , that some countries may be in as euill a case , that haue the Geneuian platforme , set vp amongest them : as some other that care not a figge for it .

But oh say the authours of the first admonition : Admo . 1. pag. 13. is reformation good for Fraunce , and can it be euill for England ▪ Is Discipline meete for Scotland , and is it vnprofitable for England ▪ Againe : Surely God hath set these examples before your eyes , to encourage you to go forward to a through and speedy reformation . Ibidem . And likewise maister Cartwright : Whereas maister Doctor would bring vs into a foolish paradise of our owne selues , as though we need not to learne any thing of the Churches of Fraunce and Scotland : T.C. lib. 1. p. 194. he should haue vnderstanded , that as wee haue been vnto them an example , and haue prouoked them to follow vs : so the Lord would haue vs also profite and be prouoked by their example . Whereunto I make no other aunswere but this : that I pray vnto almightie God withall my very soule , for the long and happy continuance of the blessed example , which this Church and realme of England hath shewed in this last age of the worlde , vnto all the kingdomes and countries in the earth , that professe the Gospell with anie sinceritie : and that also of his infinite mercie , not onely the kingdomes of Fraunce and Scotland : but all other Christian kingdomes and countries may taste so plentifully of his heauenly graces , as that they may become dayly better and better examples to stirre vp another , to the right and true pathes of all godly vnitie and obedience , of heartie and sincere profession of religion , and of such righteousnesse and holinesse of life , as may be worthy the professors of the same . This onely I trust I may say without any offence : that ( as I thinke ) we haue better causes of incouragement at home to pray for the present forme of Ecclesiasticall gouernment and Discipline , that we may haue it still : then we can finde abroad ( the premises of this chapter being true ) why wee shoulde eyther wish or desire to haue any forraine platformes or practises , of I knowe not what kinde of pragmaticall discipline brought in amongst vs .

A Discipline deuised at Geneua ; established there by cunning : and obtruded by practises vppon other Churches . A Discipline , the more it is looked into by the fauourers of it : the moe doubtes and imperfections , they daily finde in it . A Discipline the originall whereof is vnknowne : and therefore hath no warraunt in the worde of God . A Discipline so lately hatched : that as yet it hath no certaine name agreed vpon . A Discipline of that nature : as they know not well how to bestowe her . A Discipline , that banisheth such Apostolicall Bishops , as Christ appointed : & admitteth like an adulteresse of those , who indeede shoulde serue her , to haue an equall commaundement ouer her . A Discipline , that will haue Doctors of her owne : and when she hath them , she knoweth not howe to bestowe them . A Discipline of such humilitie , as forsooth Princes and Noblemen , must bee , but her inferior officers . A Discipline so disdainefull , as she forgetteh the very names of her sayde officers , or at the least knoweth them not , though they be Noblemen or Princes . A Discipline , that wil needs seeke in the scriptures for those new kind of rulers ; but she is ignorant where to finde their qualities . Whether she would haue them to be Lay-men , or Ecclesiasticall ; shee is not yet resolued . A Discipline , that when she entertaines her seruants : casteth them of againe at her pleasure , without anye offence committed by them . A Discipline that hauing seruants , doth want a warrant for their imployment : either in their particular , or in their generall offices , which she woulde faine assigne vnto them . She would haue Lay-menne to make her ministers : to be her confessors : and to bind and loose her sinnes . A Discipline , that will needs haue her particular officers , both men and women , after her owne humor : to doe nothing else , but carrie her purse , and wash her feete . A Discipline , that by reason of her traine : would be very chargeable . A Discipline , that hopeth to turne all the Church liuinges , which either are or haue beene ( belike ) into Nunries : and so to become herselfe the Prioresse of them all . A Discipline , that will needes be a new Pope Ioane , and haue to deale in all ecclesiasticall causes , either by hooke or crooke : nay almost in all sortes of matters whatsoeuer . A Discipline of such partiality : as what she condemneth in others she approueth in herselfe . A Discipline , that disdaineth the auncient fathers and generall councells . A Discipline , that dareth to disgrace any of the new writers , if they take not her part . A Discipline , that seemeth to allowe of nothinge but scriptures : & yet dependeth alltogether vpon her owne friends and Synods . A Discipline , that sometime to dazle mens eies withall ; can be content , to pretend , that the auncient fathers and councells , doe plead for her estate : but shee doth peruerte them . A Discipline , that to serue her turne doth wringe and wrest the scriptures , this way and that way as she is disposed . A Discipline , that possesseth men with so greate selfe-loue and pride , as for wante of good neighbours , they are faine to take paines to commende themselues . A Discipline , that is contented to bee magnified and exalted , against all that is called god vpon earth . A Discipline , that is vtterly forsaken , by many that haue beene her friendes . A Discipline accounted by those , that do stil remaine her best friends , not to be so necessarie , as heretofore she hath beene reputed . A Discipline , that promiseth mountaines : and bringes forth Myce. A Discipline , that is greatly disliked for her pride : her making of debate , where she comes : her taking vpon her like an Empresse to commaund and rule at her pleasure . In these respects , and many other which I could alleadge , she is ( I say ) a discipline , that is greatly disliked of sundry of her neighbours : and euen of them , who when she was at the last gaspe did reuiue her : little suspectinge that euer shee would haue proued so ambitious a creature : as since by experience they haue found her to be . And therefore for mine owne part : seeing I finde no country as yet , that is so greatly to be enuied for any especiall happines , that this pretended Cherubin hath brought forth or procured , where shee is receiued : I will continue my former praier , that the Church of England , be neuer troubled with such a discipline : but that our olde and present Apostolicall forme of Church-gouernment , vnder her excellent Maiestie by Arch-bishops or Arch-builders and Bishops , practised in the Apostles times , approued by all the auncient fathers and generall councells , and continued in this land since the time , that it first professed christianitie , may together , with her Highnesse , our most Soueraigne Lady , be long & many happy yeares mainetayned , blessed and preserued amongst vs . The which allmightie God graunt , for his Sonne Iesus Christs sake our Lord .

Amen .