Usury is injury Cleared in an examination of its best apologie, alleaged by a countrey minister, out of Doctor Ames, in his Cases of conscience, as a party and patron of that apologie. Both answered here, by Nath: Holmes, Dr. in Divinity.

USURY IS INJURY .

BRother , our Conference a a F● c. 28. An Dom. 6●● . falling upon Usury , and that drawing in your mention of Doctor Ames , as if some Patron of it , or of some kinde of it , viz. 8 l' per centum , 8 l' in the hundred ; upon my reading of the Doctor , at my retiring home , I could not but repeat him , and report my opinion of his passages b b A week 〈…〉 . : So that my intent is not now to load this paper with an heap of weighty matter , that I could urge against Usury , out of Scripture , and most sorts of learned Authors , Heathens , Poets , Philosophers , Polititians , Moralists , Jewes , Rabbins , Targum , Talmud , Christians , Schoolmen , Lutherans , Calvinists , &c. but onely to walke over and view the limits of the question , so farre as we have you and Doctor Ames in our company ; whom● sometimes I oppose ; yet not I , but Scripture and reason ; pardon me till you weigh my reasons . He had not beene a man , if he could not have erred . ●ando●ue & dormitat Homerus . Bernard● non vi●et omne . Seraphicall Bonaventure erred soulely in his Psalter : Angelicall Aqui●●s , by a mistake , sacrificed his wit in Purgatory : Alexander of H●l●s , though stiled Irrefragable , is sometime not so tolera●le in his defence of Transubstantation : Aristotle , P●●lo who am maxim● , the Maxime of the Schooles , when at a losse in humane learning was forced many times ( as learned 〈…〉 describes ) to speake so equivocally and amphibologically , as that he may indifferently be understood in utramque partem . Nor are the learnedst Fathers without their n●vi , as the learned Io●an● hath shewed in a briefe Synopsis : No ; nor are our soundest moderne writers alwayes in the way . It is our misery ( and therefore I● a●cum jam causa jubet renovare dolo● ) that the greatest Linguists have stammered with their tongues . The Septuagint 70 times . The ●yriack oft in words . The Chaldee oft losing the selfe . Ari●s , and Buxto●us , and other notable H●ir●●●s , inconsider●●● in most and best copi●s usually to be had , doe read , Psal. 22. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉 . We know ( with all reverence be it spok● 〈…〉 Scrip●ari●●● Canone ) that the Apostles could ●erre in action , 〈…〉 as Peter swerved som● w●●●uching ceremonies of the Jewes , that 〈…〉 might ha●t betw●●● the Jewish and Christian with a kinde of dissimulation , as Saint Paul cals it . Doctor Ames goes farther in his Bellarmino enervato , Tom. 1. p. 61. De sufficientia Scripturae . Neque enim ( saith he ) omnia que P●ophetae aut Apostoli scripserunt , sunt statim Canonica , sed quae Deus in illum finem sanctificavit . No wonder therefore if Doctor Ames or you , sometimes misse your way . Therefore in all , le● us all , seeing we are but men , divinam consulamus ●ati●nem , follow one another as we follow Christ . Now to the question .

Vsura est lucrum ex mutuo quaesitum , D. Am●● vi ipsius mutui . Usury is a gaine sought by lending , by force of that lending .

Quest. An Vsura hujusmodi sit licita ? Of this kinde of Usury , the question is , whether it be lawfull .

Therefore for any learned man , Replicatio whose parts I otherwise admire , to distinguish of Vsura licita & illicita , it is a meere 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 * * A begging of h● question . He makes one member of the distinction to determine a lawfull Usury , when the question is of Usury in generall , whether it be lawfull . Pace tanti viri , that in and upon the question shall so distinguish , he commits a soloecisme in disputation , too great to be seeme so great a scholler . For evidently that Questionist of the lawfulness● of Usury is beaten with his owne distinction . For if he distinguish that there is Vsura licita , why makes he the question , An Vsura sit li●ita , indefinitely . Therefore learned Ames never so distinguisheth , but first defines , then questioneth , thirdly , stateth the question .

D. Ames . Vsura talis , qualis à danistis ac foeneratoribus vul . gò exercetur , ab omnibus meritò improbatur . Such Usury as is commonly used by the lenders on interest , and Usurers , is justly disallowed of all men .

Replicatio . Therefore you did ill to spend your breath in behalf of Usury , for their sakes who are da●istae ac foeneratores , guilty talis Vsurae quae vulgò exercetur : Except in this , that its evident their Usury is worse than the commonest sort ; insomuch that a Counsellor was confident that it was extortion . If this exception were not , seeing our common Usury is 8 l' per Cent. strictly required by the Usurer , whether his Centum win or lose , it fully comes within the compasse of Doctor Ames his utter disallowance , and his sentence that it should be disallowed of all c c So far therefore is Doctor Ames from allowing 8 l' per Cent a● it ●as affirmed in our di●course , ● at in this ●o●●tion , the said no more , l●e ● followes out right in the ●●●●red . . And if the Vsurer alleageth that he puts not the Vse in the Bond ; yet he doth in his bowellesse heart and bowels : that if it be not fully paid , he will suddenly take in his Principall , the Client being so unprovided , that Vsury in the beginning , ends in unmercifull ex●orting cruelty . Summum jus summa injuria . so hang a malefactor condemned to die , without sufficient allowance of time for preparation , may be the murthering of his soule . And this sudden calling in of money , as in the cause , scil. mentall Vsury , is naught , so in the effect worse , viz. to make men mo●gage , or ruine their estate , to satisfie these 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 these Donivoros , these Anthropophagos , these man-eating Vsurers . Therefore this learned Doctor Ames bids us observe his definition , of Vsury ; it is Lucrum ex mutuo qu esitum , non conventum ; quia non tantum Vsura realis in qua pactum intercedit , sed & mentalis , quae versatur in intentione , lucrum ut debitum ex mutuo acquirendi , ista descriptione contineatur . i. Vsury is a gaine sought by lending , not covenanted , because not onely reall Vsury , which is by compact , but also mentall Vsury , which lies in the intention of getting gaine as a due by lending , is contained in that description .

Generaliter tamen , D. Ames & absolutè illicitam esse quamlibet Vsuram , nulla ratione naturali solidè potest probari . But that generally all Vsury is absolutely unlawfull , it cannot be proved by any naturall reason , solidly .

We must remember how this learned Doctor lived where the people are intolerable Vsurers : Replicatio It had beene in vaine therefore in such a place , è Cathedrâ , to have condemned all Vsury , and to have hoped to have sitten fast . And if the Doctor meane by naturall reason , reason from nature : 1. We have reason from nature , and delivered by nature , I meane , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 meere animals , that have nothing but nature , meere heathens : whereby my conscience is perswaded , that it is a dictate of nature in some sort , at least an experiment observed by nature , that Vsura est illicita d d O● the 〈◊〉 minde is M●ster Cap●… o● Vsury , at the end of 〈…〉 of temptations , viz. The heathens have condemned this sinne by the light of nature p 44● . Aristotle in his Politicks , lib. 1. cap. 7. saith plainly , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , which Petrus Ramus renders so home , as that it is evident he was of Aristotles minde ; thus , Quapropter ejusmodi nummorum foene●i● ( of money bringing forth money ) naturae maxime , contraria atque inimica judicanda est . Therefore that kinde of Vsury of money producing money , is to be judged as most contrary , and an enemy to nature . And 4. lib. Ethic. cap. 3. 〈…〉 That I may not seeme to wrest the words in translating Lambinus as an indifferent man shall render the Greeke for us ; Alii ( saith he ) ●u●sus in accipiendo sant ●imit , quia undique , & puia●●le acc●p●unt , ●●ales sunt it ●ui il i●e●ales o●e●as praestant , sordida ●ue artes exe●cent , & lenones , & omnes hujus notae homines , & ●oe●e●at●res● & ii quibus exiguum lucrum magna mercede constat . Hi omnes a quibus non de●ent , & quantum non delent , auferunt . The Philosopher concludes , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Communis autem eorum videtur esse lucri tu●pitudo . O her ; exceed in taking , viz any thing from any , viz. men of illiberall and sordid arts , Bawds , &c. Vsurers , &c. all which receive of whom and how much they ought not , and sordid gaine is common to them all . The Poet Horace , lib. 1. Serm. Satyr . 2. condemns Vsury of 5 l' per cent . his words are , Dives agris , dives positis in foenore nummis . ●inas hic capiti mercedes e●secat , i. e. five upon the principle : so learned Commentators : and a little before , Omnia conductis co●mens obsonia nummis . i. Saith the Commentator , Nummis foenori acceptis , pro quibus merces solvitur . Cicero a Heathen , condemns Vsury , Primum improbantur hi● qu s●us qui in odia hominum incurrunt , ut po●ti●orum & oe●era●orum . Cato a Heathen , condemnes Vsury , saying it is idem a● occide●e . 2. I might thus in the second place prove Vsury to be condemned by the Dictates of Nature , because condemned of all mankinde , all peoples , Nations and Countries , more or lesse . Of Heathens we have heard . Of Jewes after . For the lawes of Nations , such as are the civill lawes , received in all Kingdomes and Common-wealths , where men are not savage , first they deny a known Vsurer power to make a Will. Secondly , deny him right to be buried in Church or Church-yard . Thirdly , in Court they allow not Vse for money detained when recovered . Againe , for Canon Lawes received of Christians , Papists and Protestants , in some sort : I meane Latine Canons , they injoyn tithes to Ministers to be paid of all profits , and so Vsurers to pay the tenth of their Vse ; but Ministers may not receive it , because the gaine is all unlawfull and wicked and so the tithe . The Canonists and Canon Law doe condemne all Vsury and interest whatsoever . So ●illet on Exod. 22. Our S●●ute Lawes expre●ly disallow the Vsury of 8 l' per Cent. i● point of Religion , and Conscience . And in the judgement of Councellors his au●●lus la●t the ●atute do ●not allow and approve of taking any Vse , but onely provides a man shall not be punished by the Common Law if he take but ● l per Centum . The parent may omit correction of a younger childe for that vice which the parent doth not allow . Againe they say , the maine intent of the Statute is to hinder above 8. not to encourage to take 8 l' per Centum . Our English Canon , viz. Can. 109. is expresse that it is a great sinne , S. August●ne conde●n Vt●r Q●●dicam de ●ri , q●s et a●pse Le●es & I dic●s ●edd●●ht●t August . Epist. 54. ●e●ret . cau . 13. ● 4 c. 1 and presentable . And our Episc. Trienn . visit last held , expressed in articles that it was presentable ● . 2. If D. Ames meanes by naturall reason , proper , and pertinent , and evident reason ; sure that reason that doth convince , is such . And whether our reasons will convince , we will leave to the Reader to judge in the premises and that which is to follow .

D. Ames . Non probatur ratione eorum qui dicunt mutuum ex naturâ su● debere esse gratuitum . Neque enim probari hoc potest , omne mutuum , quibuscunque circumstantiis vestiatur , debere esse gratuitum . i. e. It is not proved ( that is Vsury to be unlawfull ) by their reason that say Borrow of its owne nature ought to be gratis .

Replicatie . Omne mere purum putum mutuum , and of that is the question ( whether consideration be to be given for bare lending ) is easily and evidently proved it ought to be gratis . Luk. 6.34 , 35. If ye ●ad to them of whom ye hope to receive , what thank have ye , for sinners do so . But lead , hoping for nothing againe h h Ma●t●r Capel times this a from place against Vsury 〈…〉 , Nor or can 〈◊〉 Law against V● b●a th● . I● hav● of Moses ; for such lawes as such , are 〈…〉 by so● intell●ge●●ro●● Moses : but Heathens of all sorts , and that by ●oug●●ature , have 〈◊〉 ●nnel 〈◊〉 sin , having never heard of Moses , and theref●●● 〈…〉 ●apol treall la● of Moses . Besides we have it forbidden in the New ●es● at the ●●a●i●ials ●ere ●at of d● . Luk. 6.35 . We explaine this in our proper idiome of our tongue and common speech , calling that which is free in this kinde , borrowing and lending : that which is not , we call by other names of contract , as letting and hiring . But the text is cleare enough , which forbids mentall expectation of gaine ; calling lending for gain to be a doing as sinners do . Vpon these words Beza having fetcht a circuit , concludes point blanck , thus ; Illud tamen certum est , si juvandus est proximus , etiam nullà recipiendae sortis habita ratione ( but this I should count rather giving than lending ) multo magis ( saith Beza ) prohiberi foeneratorias pactiones . Gregorie Nisen on these words saith , Malignam foe●orum excogitationem si quis appelles furtum , & homicidium , non peccabit . Nam quid refert suffosso pariete quenquam erepta possidere acf●norum necessitate possidere illicita . Basil speaks to the same effect as Aristotle doth in his Politicks , that it is unnaturall and unreasonable that it should be expected that mony should bring forth money . The Papists in their Rhemes Test . shame us Protestants : The words are , It may be taken for a pretext ( as well as counsell ) wherein Vsury , i. e. the expectation not of the mony lent , but of vantage for lone , is forbidden , as by other places of Scripture it is condemned . And it is a thing against the law of Nature and Nations . And great shame and pitty it is , that it should be so much used and suffered among Christians , or so covered and cloked under the habit of other contracts as it is . In a word , S. Matthew will clear it , that giving is not here spoken of ; who Mat. 5.42 . repeats our text of lending , and speaks of giving beside , as a distinct way of helping a neighbour . It were strange therefore that S. Luke , that is the most eloquent writer of all the four Evangelists , should confound giving & lending to be all one ; especially against the nature of the Greeke 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , signifying alwayes to lend , May S. L●c ch●p 6. ver● . to had spoken of g●g , and 〈…〉 to speake of lendi●g . never to give ; commonly to lend on Vsury , seldome signifying to lend otherwise ; whence 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 an Vsurer , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Vsury . So 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 in Syriack signifying alwayes to lend , never to give ; and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 signifying an Vsurer .

D. Amet. Et si concedatur hoc ( omne mutuum debet esse gratuitum ) nihil aliud inde sequeretur , quàm mutuum si gratis non fiat , transire in alium contractum , vel nominatū , vel innominatum , vel simplicem , vel mixtum . i.e. And if it be granted that all lending should be gratis , nothing would follow thence , but that then lending ( if it be not gratis ) would passe into another kinde of contract , named or unnamed , simple or mixt .

Replicatio . But this , Nihil aliud , is magnum aliquod quod inde sequeretur . For by the same reason that the Doctor distinguisheth that mutuum si gratis non fiat , transire in alium contractum , vel nominatum , vel innominatum , vel simplicem , vel mixtum ; we may goe on , distinguishing , licitum vel illicitum , conductitium vel foeneratorium : For this will of necessity follow , that if a man lend wearable goods , that returne not in the same perfection every way as they were when lent , in consideration whereof the lender takes reward : now lending doth transire into hire . If he lends mony , that by number , weight and quality , returnes as good as it went out , yet for the bare loane requires reward , here lending doth transire into Vsury . And so the Doctor innominat , doth simpliciter grant the question .

Non probatur ( viz. omnem Vsuram esse illicitam ) ratione eorum qui allegant , D. Ames . in rebus illis quae usu consumuntur dominium non distingui ab usu , atque adeo pro usu nihil posse accipi ultra valorem ipsius dominii ; responnetur , enim lucrum accipi non simpliciter pro usu rei mutuatae quoad substantiam , sed quoad valorem aut proventum qui manet post substantiam consumptam , & subsistit saepe in rebus quae usu non consumuntur & pro officio , vel actu mutuandi unde commodum percipit mutuarius . All Vsury to be unlawfull , is not proved by their argument that alleage that in those things which weare with the Vse , the rule or Mastership of them is not distinguishable from the using of them , and therefore nothing above the value of that Mastership can be taken for the Vse : For it is answered , that gaine is not taken simply forthe Vse of the thing borrowed , considered according to the substance , but considered according to the value or In-come which redounds after the substance is wasted , which oft-times consists in things which are not impaired by their use . Againe , it is taken for the office and act of lending , from which the borrower receiveth profit .

Of things wastable by Vse , Replicatio . there is not onely an impairing , but an hazard , and an event oft-times of utter ruine . The hired horse dies ; And then he must passe only for the hire ( as the Scripture speaks ) without farther satisfaction The hired house not onely is worse in the parts , every thing older and more rotted , but the principles and whole edifice fals , the tenant not bound , nor able to re-build . So that in taking hire there is not onely just satisfaction for wrong to the creature ; But lawfull merchandize for hazard of the whole . But the Vsurer takes generally for the bare Vse ; For , for hazard he will run none . He usually requires intolerable assurance , morgage , &c. His money weares not . And for that same valor aut proventus qui manet post substantiam , & subsistit saepe in rebus quae usu non consumuntur , of which the Doctor speaks observe I pray you well : That , take away the consideration of the substance of money ( which the Vsurer hath in specie & numero againe ) and the act of lending , ( which is satisfied by just repaying ) and there is nothing to come into consideration , no proventus the Vsurer is hindred of , which otherwise the Vsurer would or could make of his money , in consideration whereof he should demand Vse . For the Vsurer lends , having now no penurious need of Vse to maintain himselfe by : Being usually rich , and alwayes richer than the just borrower ; or however , he hath , or will have nothing else to doe with his money : But ( as I know upon my owne experience ) makes o● lands , stock , &c , to provide an Vsury banck . He is a lazie Caterpiller , and will not worke , and therefore turnes Vsurer . He is upheld by learned men that there is a lawfull Vsury ( though nor he , nor they , can reherse any marks the Scripture hath set down to distinguish them ) and therefore he will not runne the hazard to be a partner with any body . He will not lend to be lent to againe , for he needs not borrowing . If any man will borrow and doth not expresse or intimate he will pay for the act of lending , he will keepe his money a companion for canker and rust , rather than lend . If a man would bring home his money a month or two before the time , he is utterly unwilling , unlesse the whole time be paid for . He will have it go on , and take for time , that was never his to sell : yet he will have Vse for all his money , for all the time he prayed , heard Sermons , received the Communion : For the time of eating sleeping , &c. when , nor he nor his client could or ought to be otherwise busied . Let not the Reader now unjustly untwist this answer , but take all together , and let him speak whether the Vsurer himselfe can alleage that he receives his Vse for any thing but lending . 2 If it were so as the Doctor speaks , that post substantiam remanet valor & proventus ( which cannot be found immediately in money ) yet seeing God hath allowed recompence for using impairable goods , forbidden recompence for lending things that come in the same , quod & quantum , the case is altered .

Non probatur ( usuram esse illicitam ) ratione eorum qui objiciunt pecuniam sua natura esse sterilem : D. Ames . i.e. Vsury is not proved unlawfull by the allegation of those that say , that money in its owne nature is barren .

Replicatio The father of the Philosophers , Aristotle , as you heard afore , thought this a good reason , not onely to condemne Vsury , but to pronounce it contrary to nature . The fathers of Christians , thinke the same . So Basil on Luk. 6. as you heard afore . It is strange that we having the eyes of the fathers to see with beside our owne , should not be able to ken as farre into the nature of vitium , as a meere heathen . ☞ Consilio Lateranensi , Vsury is thus defined ; Quando ex usu rei quae non germinat , nullo labore , nullo sumptu , nullo periculo lucrum conquiri studetur . To which Willet assents , and Englisheth it in this manner ; Vsury is when by the Vse of a thing which increaseth not , gaine is sought without any labour , cost , or hazard . You heard before also that the Rhemish Testament saith , It is against the law of nature . Finally , many learned men from this seeking money to be borne as it were of money , have conceived the word Vsury to be derived . Vsura , q.d. Vsus aeris . Not onely Divines touch this s . Tench , but Lawyers . I have read it in the Lord Cooks Reports in French . Hence also the Greeke word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , which first signifies partus , then Vsury . So Latine , Foenus , q.d. Foetus , the Etymologie rising from a wonder .

D. Ames . Quamvis enim pecunia sua natura & per se sit sterilis , facile tamen commutari potest in merces , quae fructum edunt , & accedeate industria utentis vim suam confert ad fructum pariendum . For though money in its owne nature is barren , yet it may easily be changed into commodities which fructifie , and by the industry of him that useth it , brings forth fruit .

1 This answer is not sufficient , Replicatio . unlesse it be a true universall proposition , that for whatsoever worldly benefit that is barren in it selfe , yet easily commutable into profit , recompence may be given , s . for the forbearance of it . For if the proposition be but particular or singular ; then we want other proofes to cleare why it should be true of money , more than other things . But the proposition is not universally true . For then , because time , unprofitable in it selfe , being not res , but mensura rerum , is profitable by industry , Accedente industria utentis , therefore it may be sold . As indeed usurious and injurious merchants sell their commoditie , not according to the rate , but according to the value of time , condemned by the learned , that condemne Vsury . Then the Elements , Fire and Water , bona communia , and therefore gratis to be communicated to one another ( saith Cicero ) might be let out or sold for money , because mediately they are very usefull . One neighbour might sell them to another wanting them : or the Magistrate lay a tax upon men for the use of them . 2 Money brings not forth profit , by all industry of all men , but by singular industry of some , and with some hazard . Most men are not rich , most men not gaining by money , but many , many times loosing . And therefore one argument of Polititians against Vsury is , it is unlawfull , and against nature , because the Vsurer by Bonds , Bils , Suits , &c. requires of his Client quod non est in rerum natura ; profit of money where none was , but losse k k No man extols Midas e●er the more , that his fingers could turne bread into gold , as long as he lost in bread what he ●●t in gold . Nor is the Vsurers money to be admired , if it could be turned into ●read : seeing what is ●on in bread , is lost in comfort of soule . F●r without in ●t● not conve●ted to bread , &c. 1. M●das bread was not turned into gold without a most foolish wish . . 3 The Maxime applied to particulars , pincheth ; whether Vsury money , i. e. money lent on Vsury be fruitfull mediately , & per accidens . The Text , Prov 28.8 . may justly make us doubt . If God curse not , crosse not borrower or lender ( for it is seldome seene but the borrower is swallowed whole at last ) yet if the borrower upon Vse , sels unconscionably dear , that he may make his customers to pay for the commodity , pay his Vse , and finde him present maintenance , and an estate for time to come , what boast can there be made of the fruitfulnesse of this money to the Common-wealth ? The Country is sacrificed on cruell dealing to save one man . The Common-wealth must perish for the wealth of such Commons . 4 The rule of the husbandman in buying of Cattell and other commodities , or Leases , is , that he will pay for what the thing is in statu praesenti : but to pay for what it is improveable to , he hath no reason . If money be fruifull that is borrowed of the Vsurer , yet seldome so fruitfull as honestly to pay the Vser for his great paines , and the Vsurer his Vse too .

D. Ames . Non probatur ( illicitam esse usuram ) ratione eorum qui dicunt in genere nihil esse in mutuo , pro quo lucrum possit accipi . Est enim proventus fructus qui ex pecuniâ mutuo datâ potest expectari : est & onus annexum privationi pecuniae qua fit ut omnis occasio eandem cum fructu alias collocandi omittatur . Vacatio enim à pecunia utendâ eorum jure aestimari posse videtur , quo & vacatio à laboribus aestimatur . Exod. 21.19 . i.e. Usury is not proved unlawfull by their reason , who say , that in generall there is nothing in lending for which gaine may be taken . For there is both a fruitfull in come to be expected of lent money ; as also there is a burthensome inconvenience annexed to the want of that lent money , whereby all opportunity of disposing that money otherwise , is taken away : For non-imployment of money that may be used , seemes valuable , with the same equity valuable , as non-imployment of labour , Exod. 21.19 .

I have sufficiently answered all these already , Replicatio . onely to the last reason or clause [ Vacatio etenim , &c. ] I will speak a word . As now it is the question whether Usury be lawfull ( as out of doubt labour in our Callings is ) and consequently , whether Gods blessing may be expected on such money-mungring . So ( which is the maine of our answer ) the husbandman is sure ( under Gods ordinary providence ) what he can get by his daily labour , day by day : but at abundance of hazards that he doth not lose by his laying out of his money ( especially his Vsury-borrowed money ) as much in one day as he can get in many weeks . Therefore there is not par ratio , that forbearance of mony should be recompenced ( especially when men desired to lend their mony for so long time , six moneths , &c. as confident it would be no hinderance to them ) as bodily labour .

D. Ame● . Ratione evidenti confirmatur , aliquam usuram esse licitam ; quia nulla realis differentia potest ostendi , inter quandam Vsuram , & alios contractus ab omnibus probatos . e. g. Est aliquis pecuniâ instructus ad praedium emendum , unde possit percipere annuos fructus centum imperialium . Idem praedium cupit alter habere , sed non est pecuniâ instructus . Si prior ille emat praedium , & elocet alteri pro centum imperialibus , quin justum & aequum fecerit , nemo negabit . Si vero alteri det pecuniam ad idem praestandum , sc. ad idem praedium sibi emendum , & candem summam ab eo accipiat , eidem periculo sese subjiciens , cui in exemptione sua fuisset obnoxius , eadem prorsus est justitia . Et praeterea nonnihil accedit alteri illi qui selvit usuras ratione dominii in praedium illud quod emptione su acquisivit : i.e. It is ratified by evident reason , that some Vsury is lawfull , because there cannot be shewed any reall difference betweene a certaine kinde of Vsury , and other contracts approved of all . For instance , there is a man furnished with money to buy such a Farme of an hundred pounds per annum : Another man , though wanting money , desired to buy the same Farme : If the first of these buy the Farme , no doubt but he may lawfully let it out to another for an hundred pounds by the yeare . Now if this man now the owner , should not have bought it , but have lent his money to the other , that wanting money desired to buy it , wherewith he now buyes the Farme , taking of this purchaser the same summe of rent for his money , which he should have had of the Farme , putting himselfe upon the same hazard for his money to which he should have beene liable in the purchase of the Farme , there is the selfe same equity in both .

Vpon this argument and case I suppose was the speech at our conference grounded ( for I finde none so like as this ) that D. Ames allowed 8 l' . in the hundred . Repicatio But there was an utter mistake in this , as will appeare easily to him that reads the bare words . It will further appeare by our answer .

1 Here the Doctor plainly allowes a man to take so much in the hundred for his money , which he lends to a purchaser of Free-land , or Farme , as the purchase bought brings in of yearely rent , if it were let . Which is in England ( and I beleeve it to be so in other Countries ; for Vsury , too too common in all lands in the practise , prescribes that proportion of purchasing ) I say is in England but 5 l' in the hundred , which is farre from 8 l' in the hundred . 2 The phrase eidem periculo sese su●jiciens , carries very much with it . Which the learned Doctor not so versed in purchasing , as he was in perusing of books , might not so well consider . For first if by it he means simply , that a man in lending out his money to buy Centum imperialia per annum , doth run himselfe into the same hazard in lending his money , as he should have done in purchasing , if he himselfe had laid out the money on the purchase : And that therefore he ought to have as much for the lone of the money , as he should have had of rent , if the purchase had beene his , which rent his client or borrower now takes up of the Farme as rent , and payes it him as Vse : the worthy Doctor is much mistaken . 1 What great hazard there is in purchasing ( over there is in lending money , for which men are faine to give double , treble , quadruble bond , with morgages , statutes , pawnes , &c. for security , even what the Vsurer will require ) I say hazard in purchasing , in regard of conveyance , lest some morgages or statutes secretly lie on the land , or some former estate be let , or the new lease be not well made , some the for a , or and for but , marring all : Or some Entailes , or Thirds , &c. worst the bargaine , with hundreds more difficulties , I leave to the Lawyer to declare . 2 What great charges for fines , recoveries , conveyances , with many journies to settle a purchase , over there is to lend money to Vse , which costs the Vsury-taker nothing , I leave the purchaser to discourse . 3 How uncertaine the rates of commodities be , how wearable the ground is , how alterable by seasons of excesse of wet or drought the crops are , and consequently how prices of land fall , especially in any trouble of common-wealths , of wars , &c. whiles money is still of the same value , let the husbandman speake . 4 How much labour and cost a man is at to make the Farme yeeld his rent , let the occupier or imployer of that Farme speak , whiles the Vsurer is at none for the money he lends : and therefore it is a hard pennyworth for the borrower , if he imploy his Farme , to pay the Vsurer , and be paid his labour and his charges too , so as to have a maintenance . Seeing therefore in no degree doth this lender run hazard and charges as the purchaser , he is in no wise to have the same profit of his money as the purchaser of his lands .

2 If we may so take the Doctor , as that he meanes the lender of his money should altogether subjicere sese eidem periculo cui in exemptione sua fuisset obnoxius ; then it is as plaine as if written with a Sun-beame , as evident as evident may be , that now this is not Vsury , but partnership , copurchasing , coheirship , or joint-taking . And so all that this position hath set downe , gives no allowance to Vsury .

Scriptura non tollit omnem omnino Vsur● . i. e. D. Ames . The Scripture doth not altogether take away all Vsury .

1 Answ. Most learned men ( and some of them most pious ) drawing out of the Scripture the selfe same definition of Vsury in effect , Replicatio . which Doctor Ames sets downe , under that their definition condemnes all Vsury , comming within the compasse thereof — Vrsinus , Vsura est lucrum quod accipitur solius mutuationis causa — Calv. Quicquid lucri praeter sortem dabatur , est usura , unde Haebraicè dicta Tarbit : i. e Increase of the multiplying — August . Aug. in Psal. 36. Si plus quam dedisti expectas accipere , C. 14. q. 3. c. ● Se● . 10. foenerator es — Cajetan a Papist , Plus ex mutuo velle quam mutuatum sit , iniquum est — Concil. Carthag . 3. Nullus Clericorum amplius accipiat quam cuiquam accommodavit — 2 The Scripture takes away all Usury , and it will be made to appeare even out of those arguments that the worthy Doctor alleageth to the contrary , which are foure . viz.

D. Ames . Sed illam quae exigitur ab egeno , qui ob instantem , necessitatem & sustentationem suam aliquid mutuo petit : ita ut prohibitio fundetur in conditione personae . Exod. 22.25 . Levit. 25.35 , 36. Pro. 28.8 . Ezech. 18.17 . e. i. But onely that which is exacted of the needy , who for his present urgent necessity , and the sustentation of himselfe , borroweth somewhat : so that the prohibition is grounded upon the condition of the person .

Replicatio We thus retort the argument . That sin which is forbidden to all that are incident and subject to commit that sin , is altogether forbidden , that it be not committed . But Usury is forbidden to all that are incident & subject to commit Vsury ; Ergo. The Minor proposition is evident thus ; The takers of Usury are the richer : The borrowers are the poorer . And therefore the Lord forbids all rich men to take Use of their Clients , because they are poore in comparison of the lender ; and so have more need to have the Use money given them , than the rich borrower to receive it . l l That the Vsurer is the ●c● man ; & others in opposition to him are termed the poo● : we have an infallible place of Scripture , Pro. 22 2. The rich and the poore meet together . See poore put in opposition to this rich man ●e the onely rich man . Who is he ? The Vsurer . See Prov , 29 13. comp. the margent . For though a man of an 100 l' per annum , borrow of a man that hath but 50 l' per annum ; yet he that hath the more lands and lesse money , and more in debt , perhaps as much as halfe , or all his lands are worth , must needs be the poorer man . If any rich man borrow for wantonnesse , and superfluous and unnecessary uses ; that 's the speciall sin of borrowing & borrowers : forbidden under another head , sc. covetousnesse : And by other kinde of places of Scripture : Owe nothing to any one but love . So a man may abuse a godly duty , viz. pr. to seeke things to get them , to consume them on lusts , &c. Iam 4 3. Therefore in these places of Usury , the holy Ghost is altogether intent against the sinne of lenders . And that is Usury : whose aggravation is this in the Texts above named ( as in other Texts other aggravations of that sinne are touched ) that it takes gaine for lending , of them that are poorer than the lenders . Unlesse this answer be admitted as sound , it would follow by the same argument that the learned Doctor makes ; That oppression is not uviversally forbidden , because the mighty and potent ones usually are forbidden that sinne , toward the weake innocent neighbour , which alwayes is weaker than the oppressor , else he would not be oppressed . No more would the poore borrower borrow if he were rich , but rather would be ready to lend , freely , or for Usury . m m To the same M. Elton answers . If this consequence were good , then because it is said , Pro. 22.22 . Rob not the poore , because he is poore . Therefore a man may rob the rich , because he is rich . And Deut. 23.19 . No mention is made of the poore , but Vsury is forbidden towards a brother , whether poore or rich . Finally , that I may not seeme to goe an uncouth and untroden path , let the Reader looke on my company . 1 Master Capel in his Tract of Temptations , hath upon this objection of the Doctors , these words in the forenamed booke , in his dispute of restitution , at the end of the said book . Read , and read his answer : The Law ( saith the objection ) doth urge most , that Usury be not done to the poore : Was it not ( saith Master Capel ) because the Jewes were then too noble and generous to go a borrowing , except it were the poorer sort ? What should the Law then forbid that to be done by rich men , which most rich men never did ? But after we have probitions plenty that are indefinite : we are forbidden we must not rob the poore , because he is poore . Good sport for theeves , if therefore it may be thought to follow , that it is a lawfull matter to rob the rich n n The Scripture forbids taking Vse of a poore brother a Iew , this is no toleration of Vsury to be done to any Iew , for ( saith Master Capel ) there is no one place gives leave to hire his mony out to a rich Iewish f●e . . Neither can the law against Usury be thought to be a judicious law of Moses ; for such lawes as such , are knowne onely by some intelligence from the books of Moses . But heathens of all sorts , who never once heard of Moses writings , have with one voice cryed sin upon Usury , and shame upon Usurers ; Poets , Orators , Historians , Philosophers , all . Thus farre Master Capel , yet alive to maintaine his words against any . We will shew you but one or two more of our company , and leave the Reader to search the multitude of ordinary authours .

2 Next followeth Master Ainsworth , on that place Exod. 22. ●5 . quoted by Doctor Ames . Ainsworths words are , Usury consumeth a man and his substance ; and is therefore here , and elsewhere absolutely ( marke it well , absolutely ) forbidden , viz. Deut. 23.19 . Levit. 25.35 , 36. Prov. 28.8 . Ezech. 18.8 . Observe , Master Ainsworth quotes the same places for absolute forbidding Usury , which Doctor Ames notes for forbidding onely to the poore . And he quotes beside Deut. 23.19 . where Usury is forbidden to be exercised towards any Jew whatsoever . ☜ Master Ainsworth goes on , and learnedly produceth the streames of Jewish Doctors and Rabbins to be against all Usury , Usury of any increase , Usury of victuals , cloths , labour : Usury of words and salutations : Usury of teaching one to read , for lending money . All Sureties , Scribes , Witnesses , are forbidden to have to doe in Vsury . The Vsurer , say the Rabbins , offends against six prohibitions , viz. Exod. 22.25 . Levit. 25.37 . of money . And againe , Levit. 23.37 . of victuall . Againe , Levit. 25.36 . of increase . Againe , Exod. 22.25 . shall not lay upon him Vsury . Deut. 23.19 . and Levit. 19.14 . For the Rabbins say , it is a laying a stumbling blocke before the blinde , to take Vse . It is unlawfull to take Vsury before or after , viz. to send a gift before to him of whom one intends to borrow . Thus farre M. Ainsworth and his Rabbins , with much more ; to make Christians blush at once moving a tongue for Vsury .

3 Vatablus on this Exod. 22.25 . hath these words , Pauperi per expositionem positum . Exponit enim quem vocet populum suum , nempe pauperes : Thus Vatablus . And let me here put in mine oare , thus ; That if this were a limitation of Vsury , to take onely Vsury of the poore Jew , then it would follow one might take it of a rich Jew , which is no where allowed : And crosseth another limitation alleaged by D. Ames , out of the text of Scripture , that allowes Vsury to be done to none but to the stranger the Canaanite . And so these limitations fight one against another : But being made aggravations , they agree .

4 Vpon this , Exod 22.25 . Doctor Willet ( having before named seven kinds of Vsury ) hath this assertion , That Vsury is simply unlawfull . He hath this explanation . But all these kinds of Vsury and interest , with the like , were utterly unlawfull , and not to be practised among Christians . He hath finally this probation . The said assertions and explanation shall appeare by these reasons ( whereof I will defer some of them till after , for a fitter place . ) 1 Vsury ( saith he ) was detestable among the Heathen ; much more odious ought it to be among Christians . As Cato being asked what it was to play the Vsurer , answered Idem quod occidere . And further he said , that in former time they used to punish a thiefe but in twofold , an Vsurer in fourefold Willet alleageth for this his argument Calvin . 2 Vsury is against the first institution of money . Pecunia inventa est , that thereby things necessary for the maintenance of this life might be provided . But now it is prevented and abused to covetousnesse , that money may increase money . Master Willet alleageth this his argument out of one Borrh. 3 The Scripture absolutely condemneth Vsury , as Psal. 15.5 . Ezech. 18.17 . Doctor Willet may well say absolutely , for here are no limitations mentioned , which Doctor Ames sets downe . Well , Doctor Willet goes on . The word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ( saith he ) signifieth increase . By which , saith he , all increase by Vsury is forbidden . Let me give you to understand here , whence this word Tarbith comes , viz. o o

Arabi●e 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 m●ltipl●catus est , up ●n which word Tarinth , Schindler , one of the greatest lingu●sts in fi●e of the Eastern tongues , Hebr. Cha'd S●r. Ra●in-●almudie . & Arab. saith that Pro 28.8 . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ●m fo●●e & ●usura 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 multilica 〈◊〉 , viz. substant am saam , est ●tymologia e●pressa , viz. usura .

☞ Yet this is one of the places Doctor Ames urged , that Vsury is here forbidden with a limitation , sc. to the poore . When Schindler sheweth that hence is fetcht the etymologie of Vsury , what it is , sc. all increase for bare lending . And as our learned English Translators have rendred Tharbith , the case goes farre worse against the Vsurer ; for they rende Tarbith , unjust gaine . So that if one asketh what is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Vsury . It is saith Schindler , Tarbit● : what is Tarbit● ? It is unjust gaine , say our English new Translators ; Therefore I conclude Vsury is unjust gaine .

. 4 His next reason is taken out of Chrysostome . Chrysostome saith ( quoth Willet ) Vsurarius super omnes mercatores maledictus . Cursed above all merchants and tradesmen : So Willet translates . And Chrysostome ( saith Willet ) further useth this comparison ; Like as when one fifteth any graine , all the graine by little and little slippeth through , and so solum stercus remanet in cribro ; onely the soile and dirt remaineth in the sieve : So of all the substance and ill gotten goods of Vsurers , Nihil remanet nisi peccatum . So farre Willet . Thus you see the prohibition of Vsury in the above alleaged places by Doctor Ames , Non fundetur in conditione personae , not onely in my judgement and my reasons ( which notwithstanding are unanswerable ) but in the judgement of other learned men , with their invincible reasons .

Scriptura non tollit omnem omnino usuram , D. Ames . fed illam quae mordet aut rodit , i.e. quando debitū exigitur cum rigore , & proximi damno . i.e. The Scripture takes not away all Vsury utterly , but the biting and gnawing ; i.e. when the debt is exacted with rigour , and damnifying our neighbour .

Replicatio . To the first clause . 1 Thus as our English Translators , O. or N. take no notice of the distinction : Nor French , Iun. Lat. High-dutch ; so here is not a limitation of Vsury , as if Neshech , biting Vsury were unlawfull onely . As if there were another Vsury , which our old Vsurers call toothlesse Vsury . For there is no Vsury so old , as that the marke is out of its mouth , but still it may be knowne to be a sinne . Still its teeth may be seene , and so called biting Vsury . This word is oft used as an epithite of aggravation , to deterre men from any Vsury . Because any Vsury at the best is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Neshech , A biting Vsury . For if we looke after the other names of Vsury , they have a worse signification than this . 1 For 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Neshech , it is agreed that is condemned . Chrysostome cals it on Matth. 5. Morsum aspidis venenatum . And that you may know what is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Neshech , your friend ( as the Vsurers report , if any will beleeve them ) Master Zanch. will shew . Neshech , Morsus est , quo scilcet mordetur , id est , damno afficitur ille , qui mutuam accepit pecuniam , dum sc. v. g. pro centum cogitur reddere centum , & prater hos aliquid amplius , sive parum , sive multum . By which description of Neshech , all our Vsurers hundreds for one are cast , and condemned guilty of biting Vsury . For they will have somewhat more than the principle , let the borrower get nothing at all , but lose . The Vsurer must have a plus ultra , on his five in the hundred . Another his six in the hundred . Another his seven in the hundred . Another his eight in the hundred . Another his five shillings a moneth , or fifteene pence a weeke for two yeares , for five pounds ; which in the pecunia numerata , by Lunary months , twelve in a yeare , comes to 20 l' per Centum : By Solary months , as the Sunne measures seven dayes to a weeke , foure weeks to a month , and so makes thirteene months in a yeare , it comes to thirty in the hundred . And in modo numerandi , the manner of paying , that as soone as the stocke is out , to have some comming in within a weeke or a month , and so weekly or monthly , comes to above 30 l' in the hundred . For the 30 l' per Centum , you may reckon it thus ; five shillings a moneth , for a yeare , for 5 l' , comes to make the summe of 3 l' , supposing but the Almanack Lunary moneths , 12 in the yeare . For 12 crowns are 3 l' . of which 3 l' , 10 s is the Vse . For the sum was 5 l' for two years . Now halfe is come in at 12 Almanacke months . Now multiply ; ten a yeare for 50 s , is twenty shillings for 5 l' . Then foure twenties , sc. 4 l' for foure 5 l , i e. for 20 l' : that is five 4 l' ( which is 20 l' ) for five 20 l' , which is an 100 l' . So you see then that ten shillings a yeare for 50 s , is 20 l' for an hundred . Le ts goe on then ; if ten shillings a yeare , for 50 s , comes to 20 l' per Centum , then adde halfe ten shillings , sc. five , for the odde Solary moneth , the thirteenth moneth in the yeare , and that will come to halfe as much more , i. e. 30 l' pro Centum . These things I have reckoned if I forget not my selfe , before exact Shop-keepers , Civill Lawyers , Common Lawyers , and Divines , and they have assented to the reckoning to be right . And the Lawyer hath pronounced directly this to be indirect Vsury ( though a man pretend to sell his money ) and so lies liable to the penalty of the Statute . But then how much more than 30 in the 100 it comes to , to take in some of the Principall and Vse together , the first week , or first month , and so weekly or monthly , for two years , till all in , I must confesse I cannot tell ; I nevet yet tryed to reckon : and it seemes somewhat intricate : we had need have the helpe of the Almanack-maker . Others , may be , saile lower , and take but 20 s in the hundred ; yet if the borrower hath not gained thus much , this is Neshech with Master Zanchie . Nay , if a man doth not leave the borrower some gaine , if he gat but one shilling , so that Creditor fit tamen particeps benignitatis , of the gaine . that is Neshech . We adde the judgment and reasons of other learned men , that are contrary to D. Ames ; that Neshech doth not intend only to forbid one kinde of Vsury , but is a common name to disgrace , and forbids all Vsury , as all Usury being Neshech , biting . It is Willets argument , & he hath it out of learned Cajetan , Vsura est ex suo genere nociva , because it is called Neshech . And the law of nature , saith Willet , teacheth we should not do as we would not be done by . It is Ainsworths position , Evod. 22.25 . That Vsury is called biting , because indefinitely all Vsury is biting , and therefore here saith he , absolutely forbidden . He hath this position as out of many Scriptures there quoted , of which afore : So out of the Heb. Rab. viz. Maimonid . Vsury indefinitely called Neshech or Noshech , it nippeth and eateth his neighbours flesh . — Iun. out of Bernard , Vsura is called Neshech , lucrum rodens , seu exedens ; for it is , saith Bernard , Venenum patrimonii . — Willet out of R. Sol. and Lyran. Vsury is Neshech , q. mordet ut serpens ; parum percipitur in principio , tandem devorat totam hominis substantiam . Out of Galass . q. tanquam hirudo , omnem succum & sanguinem exsugit , as an horsleech , saith Willet . — Out of Simler , q. ut morsus serpentis non sinit dormire . — Out of Calvin , Neshech quia foenerator tanquam canis famelicus , alios mordendo seipsum pascit . — Finally , q. lethaliter mordet eos , qui eâ gravantur . ex Anonymo . Elton is of the same minde . All Vsury is Neshech . You see then how bad Vsury is at best . How Neshech is enough to condemne all Vsury almost . The next words are worse . For Tharebith , in the words and judgement of Master Zanchie , is of Rabbah . Quod est crescore , i.e. augere . Vocem hanc habemus , Levit. 25. Significatur autem hac voce , usura sese multiplicans , ( for indeed it is a Nowne from the Conjugation Hithpael . ) Cum scilicet Vsura , ( nempe iniqua ) non persoluta , novam parit Vsuram . Quam certè damnat Lex Dei , Levit. 25.36 . Vbi utramque vocem conjungit Neshech & Tharebith , & utramque damnat , cavetque ne fiat . Quare neque haec vox in sacris literis in bonam partem accipi potest . Atque illam primam Vsuram , quae Neshech dicitur , vocant Iurisperiti nostri Vsuram simplicem ; alteram , usuram usurarum ; cumsc . Vsura non exacta , parit novam Vsuram ; & Graeci vocant 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , quasi dicat repetitam Vsuram . So then this Tharebith is not the toothlesse or tolerable Vsury , but worse than Neshech , and therefore condemned by Scripture with Neshech , in the same text . Yea , condemned by Zanchie , yea , as he explains it , by humane laws as most odious . p p Pray marke now , that this piece of Levit. 25.35 , 36. is one of those places which Doctor Ames produceth that Vsur● is forbidden , with this limitation , viz. to the poore . When a● you heare that the two words there to expresse Vsury , signifying such a Vsury as for the nature is unlawfull to be done to any man whatsoever , poore or rich . And it is not my judgement only , but Zanchies , that seemes to be a favourer to Vsurers . And Neshech there used , is condemned by Doctor Ames himselfe , and therefore he somewhat smiteth himselfe to say Vsury is forbidden , Levit. 25.36 . to poore , because poore . When it is rather forbidden , because Neshech : and soone makes any Client so poore new as to borrow , a non to be very poore . Me thinks , Zanchie or Ames , or any man that would intimate a tolerable Vsury , should have done so much as told us by what name that tolerable lawfull Vsury is called in old Testament , where they pretend it is allowed . But they leave us to our selves . Well therefore I goe on . The third word for Vsury is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 which signifies Fraudes , Doli , Vsurae : It signifies cheating and cozening as well as Vsury , intimating that Vsury is of an odious abominable nature , to be shunned as a dangerous thing to intrap ones estate and livelihood . You shall not take my word for this , or learned Shindlers ; but I will produce our English Bibles , and the best and last translation . Prov. 29.13 . it is said , The poore and the deceitfull man meet together . The Hebrew word for deceitfull man is Ish Terakim , the word before named . The man of cunning deceits ; which because it signifies the Vsurer , therefore in the margent it is rendred Vsurer . Beside these three words for Vsury , I can finde not one Hebrew word more , upon divers diligent searchings . Nor did others handling Vsury , ever name so many as I have , that I could finde , or heare of . As for N. T. it is expresly named there , but implicitely forbidden under the precept of free lending . And under all these names Vsury is made odious ; therefore where is the name of that Vsury that Doctor Ames , or any , would intimate to be lawfull ? 2 Reply to the clause is this : All Vsury in Scripture is either Neshech , or Tharbith , or Terakim : But all these are vilified and disgraced in Scripture as odious , therefore all Vsury in Scripture is forbidden , or disgraced as unlawfull . The two first expresly forbidden . The last word is , you see , not used in any precept or position about Vsury , but onely as a name of the wicked rich man , and you see what an odious signification it hath ; insomuch that the Vsurers conscience shall judge whether Terakim is not spoken against in Scripture , when called cozening or deceitfull dealing Vsury . For the Vsurer will not have his Vsury called cozening , or fraud , or deceit . Nay , if they would but see how they are hated and cursed for taking Vse , they would disallow their Vsury . So Cic. Attic. 85.6 . Primum improbantur hi quaestus , qui in odia hominum incurrunt , ut portitorum ( toll or tax takers ) & foeneratorum . But alas Usury in this is worse than the worst sins . Those deny the fact , but excuse not the sinne : These confesse the fact but deny the sinne . 2 Our reply to the last clause , that Vsury is taken away , quando debitum exigitur cum rigore , &c. is briefly this . The breach of the Law , consistit in indivisibili . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , be it never so small , is sinne . 1 Ioh. 3.8 , 9. David smote him for cutting of Sauls garment . It is laid to the charge of the old world , Gen. 6.5 . that they brake the Law in the thoughts of their imaginations , and therefore God would bring upon them the flood . And , Cursed is he that continueth not in all the Law , &c. Gal. 3.10 . But the Law takes hold of thoughts , Thou shall not covet , &c. in the tenth Commandement . See how Paul applies it , Rom. 7. Therefore if all gaine forbare lending , for a bare principle , fully repayed , or to be repayed , be taken , be it more or lesse , cum rigore , or absque rigore , it is all the same . For how is it conceiveable that such gaine should be taken , sine damno proximi , when the most Divines that presse restitution , doe it on this ground , Vsury ought to be restored , because it hath bin a damma●e to the so borrower . But saith Master Capel , The other part of the Schooles , with whom , saith he , I joyne , hold restitution , because by Vsury there is no true title jure divino , no not in justice , to that which comes in that way . He quotes in the margent , Greg. de Valent. Tom. 3. dis. 5. q. 21. pu. 3.

D. Ames . Scriptura tollit illam usuram quae charitati repugnat , Luc. 6.35 . i.e. The ●cripture takes away the Vsury that is repugnant and opposite to charity .

Replicatio . Therefore the Scripture takes away all Vsury . 1 Because all is opposite to charity . No man but would borrow freely if he could , therefore you ought so to lend . 2 Because opposite to the Law of God as we heare , Ezech. 18. Psal. 15. Nehem. 5. restore the hundreth part , without mention of brother that is poore , or biting , &c. But the summe of the Law is charity . As Christ approves the answer of the Lawyer . Ergo. 3 Because opposite to that place , Luk. 6.35 . alleaged by Doct. Ames , Lend freely , looking for nothing . Finally take notice , that whereas before the learned Doctor averred , that borrowing ought to be free could not be proved ; yet here he alleageth this of Luk. 6.35 . Lend freely , which not to observe , is against the law of charity , saith the Doctor . Vsury , saith Master Smith , is against charity .

Forsan & illam omnem Vsuram tollit , D. Ames . quae ex lege politica Iudaeis inter se exercere non licebat . Deut. 33.19 , 20. Perhaps also it takes away all that Vsury which was not lawfull for the Jews , by the politicall Law , to exercise one towards another . Unto a stranger thou maist lend upon Usury , but unto thy brother thou shalt not lend upon Usury ; that the Lord thy God may blesse thee in all thou settest thy hand unto , &c. Vnae Scriptura indicare videtur aliquam Vsuram esse per se licitam : Dum aequali , non egeno extraneo accipere Vsuras Iudaeis permittebat .

Great glory is made of this Text , Replicat●o . in gener . to prove Usury not simply unlawfull . But as permission by law to execute death upon malefactors , doth not prove murther not simply unlawfull : So toleration of Vsury here towards them whose lives the Jewes might take away , doth not prove but that Vsury is neverthelesse simply unlawfull . For al● that ever gave a reason why Vsury towards the Canaanites ( for the seven kingdomes of the Canaanites are the onely strangers here meant , by the confession of the learned , and no other strangers ) was permitted , was because their lives were given to the Jewes , and consequently their estates too . Therefore to object a private Jew might not take away a Canaanites life , is onely to argue , that a private Jew might not take Vsury of a Canaanite . For the Canaanites goods is not his , except the life . Therefore this objection ( that is grounded on that which doth not appeare in the Text , that a private Jew might not kill a Canaanite ) doth inferre theft to be lawfull , to prove Vsury not unlawfull . For if a private Jew hath no power over the Canaanites life , then not over his estate ; for what other rule is there ? and so taking that he hath nothing to doe with , he robs . If he , a private Jew , takes use of him , surely if he doth it by vertue of the publick politicall Law , dirived to him particularly ; sure then the reason or ground of that law being publick that Jewes are to have power over the Canaanites lives , comes downe to him in particular : Or else his particular and private Vsury is without reason . 2 God tolerated the Jewes robbing the Egyptians : yet it doth not follow thence , that theft is not simply unlawfull q q Therefore Master Pe●●ins m●●es this a r●●e of understanding the Law . That the Law is still peremptory , and still the same in nature . The Law-makers dispensation being but for a speciall & particular time or occasion . And his act transcendent . .

Replicatio in partic . 1. Suppose this were a toleration of Vsury for the Jew upon the Canaanite , without consideration of power over the Canaanites lives ; yet what were this to uphold any kinde of Vsury to be used of and towards Christians ? when as two learned men , Calvin and Willet , doe not doubt from this place ( which seemes a toleration ) to conclude Vsury to be utterly unlawfull among Christians . Their argument is this . The Hebrewes were forbidden to take any Vsury at all of their brethren ; of the Gentiles they might ; but now diruta est maceries , the wall of partition is taken away , there is neither Jew nor Gentile , but all are one in Christ : therefore Christians may not take use of Christians . Before this argument Master Willet puts this position [ Vsury is simply unlawfull : ] He makes the said argument his first argument , and at the end of it he subscribes Calvin . The second particular Reply , From the manner of the Holy Ghosts setting downe this rule touching Vsury , and mens urging , sc. as a toleration . Vpon which , Master Capels position is this : I know , saith he , the Law permitted Vsury to the Jewes to the stranger . What of that ? It followes the rather , that it is of it selfe a sin ; because permission is of sins , not of duties . So Master Capel . Meditate well on this answer . Perhaps at the first sight you will wonder , and object , Doth God then tolerate sin ? Before he tolerated it is simply sinne , and so it is when his toleration ceaseth . But God being above the Commandement , his Will being the everlasting platforme of the Commandement , he may dispense ; and when and how farre he makes it no Law , there is no transgression . The morall Law was written , say the generall consent of Divines , in Adams heart , and so was from the beginning , and yet still is in force . Yet at first it was no adultery for the brother to marry the sister : I meane no breach of the Commandement of Adultery : God shewing by necessity , his Will for that generation , to dispence . So , Thou shalt not steale , is a Negative Commandement , and so binds semper , and ad semper . But when God bids the Israelites borrow of , and not pay the Egyptians , this is no theft : God having a reason , that the breach of this Commandement then was greater justice than to keepe it . The same may be said for Vsury . If Kings and Emperours must be obeyed in their wholsome lawes , under penalty of sin : But it is no sin to doe contrary to any law they make , when first they have for that time repealed them . Then God hath much more that power . The third particular reply is , That in the judgement of most learned men , the reason of this dispensation , viz. the leave the Jewes had to slay the Canaanites , doth the more shew the vilenesse and cruelty of Vsury . First , let us heare Master Capel , that we may knit this to that which was but quoted of him , that he may the better cleare himselfe . The thing is ( saith Master Capel ) There was a Law to kill the Canaanite , and yet I hope that killing was not murther : No more was that Vsury a sinne to them . Next , let us heare Master Willet , backing himselfe with the judgements and reasons of the Fathers . if it be objected ( saith Master Willet ) that God permitted the Hebrewes to take Vsury of the Gentiles , therefore it was not simply unlawfull . To this ( saith he ) it may be answered , that they were those seven Nations of the Canaanites , of whom they might take Vsury : which Nations they were commanded to destroy , and so by this meanes they might weaken their estate , and impoverish them . Whereupon ( saith Master Willet ) Ambrose inferreth , Ab hoc Vsuram exige , quem non sit crimen occidere r r And , cui jure inferuntur arma , huic legitima indicuntur Vsura . . And so ( saith he ) Augustine also concludeth , Non minus crudelis qui pauperem trucidat f●nore , quam qui eripit diviti . Adde to these Simler ; Vbi jus belli , ibi jus Vsurae .

Si enim omnis Vsura esset intrinsecè ac suâ naturâ mala , D. Ames . tum non potuere Iudaei à gentibus accipere Vsuras sine scandalo gravi , quo gentes averterentur à religione ac lege Iudaeorum , quae admitteret rem illicitam tanquam licitam . i.e. For if all Vsury intrinsecally , and in its owne nature were evill , then the Jewes could not have taken Vsury of the Gentiles , without great scandall , to the averting of the Gentiles from the religion and law of the Jewes tolerating a thing unlawfull .

By the same reason we may say , Replicatio . If theft had beene intrinsecally , and in its owne nature unlawfull , then the Jewes could not have borrowed of the Egyptians jewels , not repaying them , without great scandall , whereby the Egyptians might be turned away from the religion and Law of the Jewes , which did admit of a thing , unlawfull in the opinion of the Egyptians , to be as lawfull . But we know that theft was simply , and in its owne nature unlawfull , notwithstanding this dispensation . So was Usury , notwithstanding that permission . For 〈◊〉 this borrowing of jewels , as that lending upon Usury , was an act of distributive justice , to justly punish male factors , as enemies of the common state of the Church , not belonging to commutative justice of trading and trafficking , borrowing , lending , &c. 2 We are not to examine Gods Lawes by the uncertaine rule of scandall taken by gracelesse men s s For the Gospel , and the liberty thereof was a scandall to the Iewes , & foolishnesse to the Gentiles , 1 Cor. 1. , but rather by the holinesse and uprightnesse of Gods will , which we know to be so perfect , that the lawes and dispensations it dictates , cannot be condemned of scandall-giving . 3 We know murther was simply unlawfull . And no doubt but the Canaanites would take great offence at Jew & Jewish religion , if the Jews invading their Kingdomes , would kill any of the Canaanites ; yet neither of these reasons made it unlawfull or inconvenient ( God giving them this liberty ) to kill & destroy all Jericho and Ay , &c So , nor the law against theft , nor offence that might be taken by the Gentile , made it unlawfull or inconvenient for the Jew to pick the Cannaanites pocket by Usury , seeing they might doe more ( by divine dispensation ) viz. cut their throats , as an act of just war . The Kings law is still current , that murther and robbing is felony and death ; though he sends his officer to take away the life and goods of one that is not to be owned for a free Denison , but rather standing under a forraine power , denying the Kings Supremacy , as Jesuites , &c. So the Canaanites denied the Israelites to have any right to Canaan , or authority over them ; and therefore the Jewes took their lives , or goods , or both , as forfeited , without prejudice to the simple unlawfulnesse of murther , theft , Usury , &c. 4 This toleration , in stead of taking offence , might probably bring in the Canaanites to turne to the Jewish Religion . For when they saw no Jewes life or goods in jeopardy by war and Usury , but the Cananites , they might reason within themselves who would be a Canaanite , and not a Jew ? Seeing that which is simply illicitum , unlawfull among the Jewes and their confederates , is counted as a lawfull act and execution of common justice upon a Canaanite , to take away his goods by Usury , nay , Neshech , biting Usury , and his life by warre . For so in Deut. 23.19 . Of thy brother thou shalt not take 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Neshech , but vers. 20. extraneo , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Tashich , foenerabis ; which Tashich is of the root 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 which signifies to take Neshech , biting Usury : which Doctor Ames condemned as simply unlawfull .

Huc etiam referri potest , D. Ames . quod maximè probabile sit ex parabola illa de Talentis . Matth. 25.27 . Non tantum in vulgari usu fuisse apud Iudaeos mensariorum aliquod foenus , sed etiam à Domino non fuisse improbatum , quia sub illa similitudine exigit officium spirituale sine ulla infinuatione alicujus improbationis , qualem in aliis parabolis , quae ab usu improbato officium illustrabant , solebat adhibere . Luc. 16.8 . i. e. Thither may be referred that likely conjecture out of the Parable , Matth. 25.27 . viz. that not only there was a certaine Usury among the Jewes , commonly used by the money-changers , but also that it was not disallowed of the Lord ; because under that similitude he requireth a spirituall duty , without any intimation of disallowing it ; which he was wont to expresse in other parables , illustrating a duty from or by some disallowable act . Luk. 16.8 .

Replicatio . As for the Parable of the Talents , I never heard any learned Divine , or any other Christian urge it , but those that are Usurers , in the behalfe of Usury . For if the Text be well weighed , the comparison smites Usury : For this comparison was not used , but upon a speciall occasion of retortion . The man of one Talent alleageth for his idlenesse , the unreasonablenesse of th● Master , that he reaped where he sowed not . Why then saith the Master , if thou hadst thought so indeed , or if I had beene so indeed , thou shouldst and wouldst have runne upon unreasonable wages of bringing in advantage to me , even to have put my money to Use , to give me content : but because thou didst not doe so , it is evident that thou didst not take me for a cruell Master , but rather presumedst on my clemencie , and so didst not by honest gaine peruse my Talent , as all the rest have done , and brought in advantage , without Usury . For had our Saviour in the least measure connived at Usury , he would as well have aggravated the sluggishnesse of this owner of one Talent , from the manner how they got their increase ( if they had meddled with Usury ) as from the matter they had gained . To this effect Pareus Comments on the place ; Abscondisti talentum , quia sciebas me metere quod non seminavi . Imo , si sciebas me talemesse ; si vera esset tua criminatio , abscondere non debuisti , sed elocare talentum , ut reciperem cum lucro . Sic falsam criminationem ipsius facto convincit , & vanum ignavia praetextum refellit . So that to me it seemes evidently , that the Lord intimates that to be such a one as to reape where another sowes , is just to be as a Usurer ; and that there is no satisfying such a Master , but by paying Use-money . Were this a good Commentary upon the comparison , Matth. 24.43 , 44. 1 Thess. 5.2 . 2 Pet. 3.10 . De Domino , dieque illo Domini , ut fure noctu veniente , ita venturo , quod maximè probabile sit , non tantum in vulgari usu fuisse apud Iudaeos furtum , sed etiam à Domino non fuisse improbatum ; quia sub illa similitudine exigit officium spirituale ( nempe vigilias spirituales ) sine ulla insinuatione alicujus improbationis , qualem in aliis parabolis quae ab usu improbato officium illustrabant , solebat adhibere . Luc. 16.8 ? No , I should be cryed out against for such a Glosse . Then may I dislike the like Glosse upon the Parable of the Talents , like word for word . Others answer this place to the same effect , viz. This place ( say they ) will no more warrant lending on Usury , than Christ his comparing his comming to judgement to the sudden comming of a thiefe , Mat. 24.43 , 44. will warrant their suddenly breaking into mens houses .

D. Ames . Aequitas lucri demonstrari potest , ex aequitate manifestâ , de qua nemo potest dubitare , si quis nulum certum reditum vel summam sibi praecise pendi stipuletur , sed ita pecuniam suam apud probum virum collocet ut in illius fide acquiescat . De hujusmodi pecuniae collocatione nulla potest esse quaestio , si periculum capitalis maneat commune . Nihil enim est aliud quam contractus societatis in lucro & damno . i. e. The equity of gaining , can be demonstrated by a manifest equity doubted of by none ; viz. If any one shall not bargain for any certaine returne , or summe of gaine to be precisely paid unto him , but so putteth out his money to an honest man , that he rests in his faithfulnesse . Of this way of putting out of money there can be no question , if the hazard of the Principle be common to them both ; for it s nothing but partnership in gain & losse .

Replicatio . Doth the Usurer thus put out his money ? No in no case : His conscience and his security will witnesse the same . What is all this then to prove the lawfulnesse of putting to Use ? No more than he that to prove a thing to be chalke , useth this argument , because it is cheese .

D. Ames . Nihil contra aequitatem committitur si lucrum incertum , quod probabiliter sequetur , vendatur pro certo moderato . i. e. There is nothing committed contrary to equity , if a gaine uncertaine , but probably following , be sold for a moderate gaine certaine .

But what proofe is there of this ? Not a word . Replicatio . We therefore that are nullius addicti jurare in verba magistri , may just so answer the argument as it is proposed , saying , it is contra aequitatem . And what is now won or lost ? But we will give a reason of what we say . If false ballances be abominable , to fell lesse for money than one ought ; If going beyond ones brother , and circumventing him , to sell naughty commoditie for good , is unlawfull ; then sure it is unlawfull to sell nothing for money ; which a man doth often , when a man sels lucrum incertum . So the Doctor confesseth . He saith , quod probabiliter sequetur . We say that also , probabiliter non sequetur . For so we see by experience in trading . So we finde by Scripture upon all men . All things come alike to all . Pe●s 9. ● Of riches in particular : They have wings . And of dealing so as to break the Commandements , it brings a curse on all we put our hands to . Deut. 28. And of this sort is Usury , sc. unjust gaine . Prov. 28.8 . And it brings a curse on all we put our hands to , Deut. 23.19 , 20. Whiles therefore the Usurer will sell , and the borrower will buy Gods providence over his head , you see more likely in Usury Gods curse , and losses are bought and sold over mens heads .

Neque iniquitatis quicquid est in eo , D. Ames . si contractus fiat legibus aequis , ut totum periculum capitalis pertineat ad eum qui exercet pecuniam . Nihil enim aliud est quam contractus assecurationis quo alienae rei periculum pretio aestimabile suscipitur pro pretio . i. e. Neither is there any injustice in it , if the contract be made with equall conditions , that the whole hazard of the principle lie upon him which useth the money , being nothing else but a contract of insurance , whereby the hazard of anothers goods valuable at a price , is undertaken for a price .

D. Ames . Did not the Doctor but now say , De pecuniae collocatione nulla potest esse quaestio , si periculum capitalis maneat commune ? Therefore it followes , si non sit commune , est quaestio — 2 How there may be contractus legibus aequis factus de re injustâ facienda , is beyond any man of sound reason to conceive . 3 If it be rei alienae periculum , why should it not so abide ? why should any man lend for care ? why should he lay another mans sacks upon his shoulders ? seeing every day 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 : especially seeing there is danger of sinne to be laid on the borrowers shoulders , as well as care , to helpe the Vsurer to sinne and live unprofitably , which could not be without the borrower . If it be rei alienae periculum , how shall it be on both sides , that neither hath wrong , sc. pretio aestimabile ? It is all in Gods hands how great the periculum may be . One wedge may fire all the stuffe of Achan . By occasion of this Vsury-money , the borrower may fall into dealing that may inwrap all his estate , and all may be lost .

Non necessario requiritur , D. Ames . ut istiusmodi contractus distincte aut expresse fiant , sed satis est si fiant implicitè ex intentione sincerâ , & secundum aestimationem proborum . i.e. It is not necessary that such like contracts be made distinctly and expresly , it being sufficient if they be made implicitly , out of a sincere intention ratably by honest men .

It s no need indeed that the contract be expresse for the committing of the sinne of Vsury . Replicatio . For the Doctor said before , Vsura est lucrum ex mutuo quaesitum , non conventum ; quia est Vsura tam mentalis , quam realis — 2 To seeke intentionem sinceram in an Vsurer , is to looke a rose among nettles , figs on thornes , and grapes of thistles . 3 For the aestimatio proborum , be bold of it , they will be judges of no such matters , unlesse they may judge the losse upon the idle unprofitable Vsurer , and the gaine to the labouring borrower .

Si isti omnes contractus separatim sint liciti , D. Ames . contractus ex iis compositus sit licitus . i.e. If all these contracts be separately and singly lawfull , then one compounded of them is lawfull .

To these severally we have answered , Replicatio . with severall reasons and allegations : And therefore I wonder the worthy Doctor would once speake such a word [ ut omnes concedunt . ] Therefore of these lucra , single or mixt , we conclude with the old verse , Et quae non prosint singula , mixta mala . Or with this , Singula si noceant , eadem quoque juncta nocebunt .

Quaestio quarta est , quaenam observanda sunt ad peccatum vitandum in pecuniâ exponenda ? D. Ames . i.e. The fourth question is , what rules are to be observed , whereby to avoid sinne in putting out money ?

Replicatio . It should seeme there is a common fault and sinne in putting out of money , by the Doctors confession .

D. Ames . But he thinks it avoidable by these cautions : 1 Ne quid ultra sortem exigatur ab egenis . 2 Ne lucri aviditas impediat foeneratorem quo minus pauperes simpliciter donando juvet . 3 Non totum illud exigere , quod legibus & usu recepto licet . i.e. 1 That nothing above the principle be exacted of the poore . 2 That greedinesse of gaine hinder not the Vsurer from lending to the poore . 3 That he exact not all that law and custome tolerates .

Replicatio . 1 Let the Vsurers conscience , and vox populi witnesse , whether these cautions be observed . 2 If these be observed ; yet God witnesseth against the Vsurer . Non vitatur peccatum in pecunia exponenda , as I have already cleared it out of Gods Word , canvased & argued with the allegations & reasons of godly & learned authors . 3 To make the question , An Vsura sit licita ; and to put downe , dictate and suggest cautions , without proofe , as sufficient to take away the nature of Vsury , is petitio principii , a begging of the question .

Spectanda semper , & observanda regula aquitatis , D. Ames . & charitatis ; ut illud tantum accipiatur , quod quisque bona fide vellet à se accipi in simili necessitate deprehenso . i.e. Alwayes the rule of equity and charity is to be observed . viz. That so much only be taken , which every one in very deed , would have to be taken of him , were he in the same condition .

We have already shewed , Replicatio . that in committing this sinne of Vsury more or lesse , there can be no equity or charity found : For if there could , the question were yeelded , Vsury were not sinne . 2 For doing as one would be done by , i.e. say the Schoolmen , secundum rectam rationem . Saul would have his armour-bearer run him thorow ; therefore might Saul runne his armour-bearer thorow ? The lender upon Vsury thinks it no sinne so to lend ; therefore if he were in the borrowers case , he would not doubt but lawfully so to borrow . But if the Vsurer and the Borrower were well informed , secundum rectam rationem , they would know ( as very learned men hold ) it is unlawfull to borrow or lend upon Vse , and so would neither doe , nor be done to upon Vsury .

The Caution . D. Ames . Offensiones & calumniae ( quibus obnoxium est hoc genus co●ractuum . Jer. 15.10 . ) declinari semper dabeat , quantum fieri potest . i. e. The last Caution is , that offences and calumnies ( to which this kinde of contract is liable . Ier. 15.10 . ) ought to be avoided as much as may be .

Replicatio . This dasheth neere all the Doctor hath laid down before in favour of Vsury . 1 He confesseth Vsury to be a thing of evill report , out of Ier. 15.10 . 2 That offences must be avoided , &c. we inferre therefore Vsury must be left . 1 By the rule of this ; Woe unto the world because of offences . Better a milstone , &c. But so doe Vsurers offend many of their clients , to cursing . So doe they offend their Minister , to heart-breaking sorrow , especially at times of Communion . 2 By the Apostles rule , Philip. 4. Whatsoever is of good report , &c. If there be any praise , thinke of these things .

Thus Object . farre of Doctor Ames urged at our Conference . There was another authour named , ( sed excidit memoriâ ) whereby to countenance Vsury , as if the urging of mens authority without their reasons , were of any validity .

1 We Sol. could fill a sheet of learned mens names , that hold against Vsury , if that were a confutation . I wish from my heart , that those that are affected with the multitude of authours to sway their Tenent , would read the English Vsurer , where they shall meet with a multitude of learned authors condemning Vsury , and their sound reasons too ; viz. 6 learned pious Bishops ; 10 learned pious Doctors ; 22 learned pious Divines ; with an addition of the witty reasons of three famous English Poets . 2 If we run upon mens authorities , we shall be robbed of all the Commandements , or the maine branches of them . The learned Atheist will take away the first Commandement . I have seene in Cardinall B●●onius his Talmud the second Com. bl●tted out with his own pen , And left out in Rom. Catech. Concil. Viennens . Concil. Ta rocon●ens . c. 3. Concil. Laterancos . par. 16. c. 1. See also Willet on Exod. 22. qu. 46. The Papist the second . The Anabaptist the third . The Jew the fourth . The Popes dispensations the fifth , sixth , & seventh . The Vsurer the eighth . The equivocating Jesuite the ninth . The Papist the tenth , that Concupiscence is no sinne . 3 The Canonists and Canon Law have this remarkable decree ; SI QUIS AFFIRMARE PRAESUMAT , EXERCERE USURAS NON ESSE PECCATUM , &c. If any presume to affirme that it is no sinne to practise Vsury , we decree him worthy to be punished as an Hereticke . Finally , we have not onely learned pious mens arguments in abundance to prove Vsury unlawfull , but that it is so unlawfull , as that restitution must be made ; Vsurers being bound to it by the Law of God . See Capel of Temptations ; That it is utterly unlawfull to borrow upon Vse . So the learned Jewes and Rabbines . See Ainsworth on Exod. 22.25 . They prove it out of Deut. 23.19 . Thou shall not cause to bite ; Thou shalt not cause to lend upon biting Vsury . By traditon we have beene taught , that this is an admonition to the borrower . Three times more in the said place they say it is unlawfull to borrow upon Vse . I adde , If Vsury be simply a sinne , as the learned prove , and you have heard them alleaged : Then how can a man be accessary to it , and not be guilty ?

Finally , Object . at our Conference ( as I remember ) there was urging of necessity in some cases , to take and give upon Vse ; and it is common to men to make thousands of cases .

Sol. But if God ( on paine of excluding heaven ) forbids Vsury , Psal. 15. Ezech. 18. sure no case can make it necessary . Capel to this alleageth Tullie , That no necessity can licence a man to take that which is not ones owne . And Erasmus , that these in case of necessity , is still sin . Nor may we , nor can we upon any pretence conceive , that God will so prevent mans good , that he will make it condemnation to doe that , which our Cases ( we make ) say we must needs doe .

FINIS .