CHAP. I. The great importance of the matter heere handled ; viz. That the people ought to have their free consent in their owne Church-governement . And the causes of publishing this Attestation to it .

WHEREAS many thinges at divers and sundrie times heeretofore have ben written , which prove a plaine necessitie by Gods Word to reforme the Church & Church-governement now in England ; verily among them all there is almost no other point so evident , so direct , and ful to this purpose , that is , Chap. 1. none ( in a maner ) so absolutly importeth the saide necessitie of reformation , as this doth ( which is vtterly wanting among vs ) nam●ly : That the Church-governement ought t●●●e exercised alwayes with the peoples free consent . One , or two ma●●● grounds of our whole controversie . It is true , another ground thereof there is likewise , & that of no lesse importance in this matter , which is , That Christes true Visible and Ministeriall Church vnder the Gospell consisteth not of many ordinarie Congregations , but only of one . Which I have at large prooved to be a truth , and have made it manifest in my Declaration , pag. 10.11.12 . &c. and in Reas. for Reform . pag. 19.20 . & 65.66 . And againe † † Chapt. 8. heere after I do shew it further . Yet the former point in some respect may bee thought rather the chief , because this second is a dependant on the former , & followeth by a necessarie consequence from it , as partly is shewed in the said Declarat . pag. 13.14 . and more fully in the VII . Chapt. of this present Treatise insuing .

Againe , that requiring the peoples free consent , noteth Christes Visible Churches nature and essence intensivè , The Churches nature intensivè . as the Scholes do speake : that is , it sheweth th● ground of the power and life thereof . The other sheweth the essence of it extensivè , Extensivè . that is , the largenes of the Body of the Church , & iust extent , or the due limites and bounds thereof outwardly . Wherefore that requiring the peoples free consent , is manifestly a most proper and speciall Argument in our cause , and such as toucheth the quicke in the matter of the said reformation most neerely .

D. Downame erreth greatly , in his late Defence making his first booke thereof ( full long & tedious ) only to disprove Lay Elders , as he calleth them . Thinking without all reason , that if hee speed well therein , he hath gotten the victorie . Wherevpon hee most fondly inferreth thus : “ “ Defenc. 1. pag. 62. Who seeth not that the disproofe of their Presbyteries , is a direct proofe for our Bishops ? And in another place : * * Defenc. 2.2 . Who seeth not that vpon the overthrow of the Presbyteries , the governement by Bishops is necessarily inferred ? Who seeth not ? Verily neither hee , nor any man living , seeth it . Hee was tolde sufficiently by his Refuter , † † Ibid. pa. 10. of this his vaine and frivolous inference . But hee seemeth so in love with his owne folly , that he can indure no man to shew him his errour . Nay , such a minde hee beareth , that in his Defence he goeth about with pretended Logike , to make this his idle conceit seeme reason , and therevpon hee saith his adversarie must “ “ Defen. 1.6 . confesse him selfe ignorant in Logike , if hee will deny this his inference . And so ‡ ‡ Pag. 62. this passage concerning Lay Elders , ( he hopeth ) will be acknowledged not to bee impertinent . Never a whit truly . The question of Elders wholy impertinent . For this passage still is not only impertin●nt and idle , but even a false defence of those whom he peadeth for , if he will yet holde his opinion still . He hath not Logike at commaund ; neither can hee by his Sophistrie , ( amonge men of anie vnderstandinge ) make that to seeme , which is not . Where hee saieth , it is “ “ Pag. 61. presupposed on both sides , it is his folly to say so . And in saying , his Refuter witnesseth it , hee grosly abuseth him . He doth the contrarie in the same place which hee alleadgeth out of him . For the Doctor leaveth out his Refuters wordes presently following those which hee alleageth . Which later words are flat against him . So iustly and truly our Doctor dealeth in his writings . Like to this is his great boast which hee maketh heere in his booke , and often afterwards also , viz. that he hath found out twoo sortes of Disciplinarians , ( as his wisedometermeth them ) one “ “ Defenc. 1.60 . and 2.147 . elder and more learned , the chiefe of whom ( he saith ) are Calvin and Beza ; Another , new , shallow , and ignorant sort : of whom he maketh † † Defenc. 2.2 . 82.130 . Maister Cartwright chiefe , adioyning others of vs since vnto him . But what difference ●ndeth hee in these Disciplinarians ? ●orsooth , the elder ( he saith ) holde ●resbyteries in Cities to governe ●hole Dioceses and Provinces , and ●erein he avoucheth “ “ Defenc. 2.2 they ioyne with ●e Bishops in England against the new sort of ●isciplinarians . The new sort * * Defen. 1.60 . boldly and ●●noran●ly hold Parishionall Presbyte●ies . Naythis , Doctor slandereth either ●gnorantly or maliciously . For wee whom he maketh of the new , shallow , ●nd ignorant sort ) we , I say , Wee agree with Calvin & Beza in substance . differ not ●ne haire from Calvin and Beza tou●hing the substance of this matter . We as they , & they as we do acknow●edge both the one and the other ; that ●s , both the Parishionall and the Dio●esan Presbyteries , yea the Provinci●ll , and larger too , if occasion serve . ●t is false which he imputeth to Calvin ●nd Beza , that they maintayne the Church-governement by Diocesan & Provinciall Presbyteries absolutly without any relation to the peoples ●onsent in the ordinarie Congregations . Also , that heerein they ioyne with the Bishops in Englande , or that they materially differ from vs . All which God willing , we shal shew to be vntrue , and that most cleerely in the 3. Chapt. & also in the 7. & 8. here following . Wherefore these be all slanderous forgeries of the Doctors devising , of purpose to make our innocencie odious by all the shifts be can , & to cast some “ “ Defen. 1.53 colour of iust cause , or shew of reason for his leaving of our acquaintance , Wherefore D. Downame left his first profession . to whom heeretofore he ioyned him self , namely while there was som expectation of his Maiesties favour towards vs . And this is fully enough for answer to the substance of his whole first booke . Seeing to trouble our selves much with impertinent stuffe , would be in vs also great folly .

Yea , to speake the truth , the prosecuting of all the rest of his Defence besides , is such likewise : that is , cleane from the maine purpose , & toucheth not the chiefe question betweene vs . Indeed he propoundeth one part of the question wel in the title of the second booke of his Defence : but his prosecuting of it both there and every where els , even to the end , is as if we denyed Bishops and their governement in the Churches of Christ . We deny not Church government by Bishops . Which is nothing els but lyes , & malicious forgerie against vs , by equivocating falshood & slander to make vs seeme , as if wee were against both the expresse letter of the New Testament , Equivocatō and also of the most ancient Ecclesiasticall Writers , where ( we know ) any man may see Bishops & their government to be commended as from God , and as the ordinance of the Apostles . Which is the very practise likewise of Doct. Bilson against vs in his booke Of the perpetuall governement of Christs Church . Whose trace our Doctor followeth step by step . But as I said , both their great and large volumes about this matter , are nothing els but two heapes of equivocations , or sentences wholy impertinent , & such as we admit with them , or some conclusions wherein they plainly contradict themselves elswhere . Little cause therefore had they who lately published that book of D. Bils . in Latin , so to do : vnles they meant to shew abroad further his most impertinent , ambiguous & vncertain writing , & yet fraught with bitternes enough against vs . In a word , we desire that all men should know that our question is not , whether Bishops and their governement be Apostolicall , about the proving whereof the greatest part of these twoo Doctors bookes are spent . Further , though we denie Diocesan & Provinciall Bishops of any sort to bee Apostolical , yet we do not “ “ See Reas. for Reform . Pag. 7. & 38 simply deny but that some kinde of them also may bee lawfull , were it not that certaine waightie circumstances in these our dayes do stande against them . Yea , there are Circumstances now verie evident and pregnant against the best sort of Diocesan Bishops , which were not in 200. or 300. yeares after Christ . So that no reason can be made ; because they were lawfull in the second or third age , therefore they are lawfull now . The case being thus , it is to be noted that the DD. do not propound the true question betwene vs . For if the peoples free consent in their owne Church-governement were not ( as it is ) Christs ordinance in the New Testament , certainly no Circumstance , nor any thing els could make Diocesan or Provinciall Bishops at all reproveable . For which cause the true question indeed betwene the Prelacie and vs , or the principal & maine question is , Whether the people ought to have alwaies their free consent in their owne Church government . But this ( specially “ “ See his Defen 1 38.47 & 4.80.99 . D. Downame ) putteth away from him with high disdaine , contempt , rayling , hatefull accusations , and exclamations . So that with this hee will not vouchsafe to medle . Wherein truely we may see him to be , I can not say learned , but a cunning , bolde , and exquisite Sophister . And this may be in generall a sufficient Answer even to his whole Defence . Although for some other respectes I hope some body will one day examine his particular passages more exactly in a place for the purpose .

But to our point in hand . We cleer●y see by this , that it is the peoples con●ent in the affaires of their owne spi●ituall ( that is , Church ) governement which maketh the matter , & putteth the difference in deed betweene the Ecclesiasticall Reformation which in all dutifulnes wee seeke , and that Church-governement which the L. Bishops in Engl. do exercise . I say , this concerning the peoples right heerein is it , which toncheth the life of our controversie . Where vnderstand , Note . that I meane only such people as are not ignorant in religion , nor scandalous in their life . For only of such Christes Visible Church ought to consist .

Well ; to proceed them with our point . Questionles hence it is , that generally the Adversaries of the forenamed Reformation do so strangly reiect , yea so hatefully resist , and strive against this same Christian doctrine heere propounded ( concerning the churches only true governement with the peoples free consent ) as they do . Wherein they expresse & shew litle Christian patience : for they prosecute those that hold & teach the same ( though out of meere conscience ) with all bitter reproches , base skoffings , iniurious slanders , and vnmercifull dealings . And all this ( it is plaine ) not for any manner of evill that they finde in this doctrine , or for any inconvenience therin . For in truth there is none at all : as partly I have shewed “ “ Reas. for reform . pag. 28 heretofore , & it will further be manifested heereafter . But they so hate this doctrine only because of the inevitable consequence of the said reformation , which it bringeth with it . Which crosseth & overturneth wholy their divers enormous , worldly , & carnall desires ; as any man that looketh into the case , may easily see .

Howsoever it be , yet the truth and the agreeablenes heereof , with the holy Gospell of Iesus Christ , & with the assuring of our soules in the way to eternall life , as it hath appeared to the world ever since the discovery of Antichrist , more cleerely then it did for many yeres before : so doubtles it will more and more appeare yet still , & be made further manifest to al men even where the Gospell is receaved ( as it is in many places yet ) not so sincerely as it ought to be . See chapt. 7. pag. 156. &c. For my part , because I well perceave that the Antichristian idolatrie and tyrannie of the Church of Rome cannot by Divinitie be soundly resisted ( as experience in time will shew ) neyther was it resisted by our Forefathers at the beginning , but by maintayning this Evangelicall point of doctrine among others , therefore I have condescended the more willingly ( after diligent inquirie thereinto ) to approve the said point of doctrine , viz. that the Church governement ought to be exercised alwayes with the peoples free consent . Which also even for “ “ For that the Papacie els will come in . See Chap. 7. this same cause I can not but beleeve to be the holy ordinance of Iesus Christ for his Church vnder the Gospel , and to have ben delivered vnto vs by the Apostles in their perpetuall practise of Church-governement . But specially , seeing for the same we have the most sure evidence of Gods word in the New Testament , which I † † Argnm. 3. & 9. of the Divine beginning of Chrsts Visible church Declarat pag. 20 ●1 Reas. for Reform . pag. 45. 46 , 47. 48. have heeretofore gathered and observed at large . Secondly , seeing we have for it a plentifull , and cleere Attestation of many Learned , Godly , and famous Divines both New and Old , confirming our faith , and strengthening our consciences therein .

Which Attestation I have thought it needfull at this time and in this place to gather and produce for many causes . First my desire is that it may ly open to the sight of all men , what a great & holy agreement of good men heerein we have ; which being added to the forenoted fundamental certaintie thereof in Gods word , giveth so full a satisfaction to every good Christian , that who can desire more ? Secondly , all Christian Civill Magistrates may heereby take good content and be satisfyed touching the innocencie of this way in the Church governement which we holde . For when they shall see with what a cloud of such witnesses we are compassed in defence of this matter , they can not imagine any inconvenience by it to their governement , notwithstanding all the clamours and invectives of partiall Adversaries against it . Lastly , heereby also our adversaries virulent tongues and pens ( if it be possible ) may bee ashamed to abuse vs as they do with al kinde of vnworthy reproches and slanders , when they shall see whom they hate , and persecute , & revile togeather with vs . Wherefore for the publishing of this matter there appeareth every way very great and necessarie reason .

CHAP. II. The Method and order of this Treatise .

NOw heerein I purpose to proceed thus . First I will shew , who among the New Writers are our Maisters & Teachers in this point of doctrine , and whose faith wee follow therein : whom I put first , namely , for their singular perspicuitie and resolutnes in it . Then I will rehearse the practise of the most ancient times after the Apostles . After that , I will remember our very adversaries consent with vs heerein sometimes . Then I will shew some certaine & firme consequences whiche follow from this ground necessarily : also some true & great inconveniences in re●ecting this doctrine . Moreover , I will answer some of the adversaries chiefest obiections , noting also briefly their immodest and vnchristian reproches against this Evangelicall truth . And finally , adding a brief advertisement touching this cause , we will commit the whole consideration thereof to the vpright hearted and discreet Christian Reader .

CHAP. III. The testimonies of many particular late Writers , of blessed memorie , making for vs in this matter .

BEGINNING therefore with the New Writers , I iudge it meet and convenient to alleage in the formost place the resolut determination of Maister Beza , Beza . because he of al others is thought by some vnadvised persons , to be most against vs in this point . Now hee disputing this question at large in his Epist. 8● . setteth downe this conclusion ; Populo invito nihil obtrudatur : Let nothing be imposed on the people ( or Congregation ) ag●a●t their willes . Then the which verily we desire no more : this is all in substance that we seek in our assertion . Againe , vnles it bee so , the Church-governement either is a Monarchie , or a verie Oligarchie . But Maister Beza expresly condemneth both these : and the later namely on Math. ca. 18.17 . Wherefore howsoever Maister Beza interpreteth some things otherwise then we do , & vseth some times other phrases then we perhaps do thinke so fit , or so frequently to be vsed , yet touching this point in question , hee agreeth wholy with vs in substance , and in effect . For let this which he in these wordes setteth downe be yeelded vnto vs , them wee are satisfyed for the substance of Church-governement . To which purpose Maister Beza saith also in Confes. 5.35 . The Apostles intended in the Churches which they planted , that no Pastor should bee obtruded on a flocke against their willes . Yet moreover I pray the Reader to note , that even hee also strongly maintayneth this right of the people ( in the affayres of their soules ) many tymes in more free and large termes . As where he saith : “ “ Confes. 5.34 . I finde no where in any Christian Church built vp that any is promoted either to the Ministerie of the word , or Deaconship , or Eldership , any other way , then by a publike and free election . And , † † Sect 35. I repeat againe that which I said before , It was never receaved in Christian Churches established , that any should be admitted to an Ecclesiastscall function , but being freely and lawfully chosen of that Church which it concerneth . Againe , “ “ ibid. Pastors are not to be chosen without the consent of the whole Church . Also , * * ibid. They ( whosoever they are ) bring Tyrannie into the Church , if they call any man to a publike function at their owne will , the consent of the multitude being neglected . Againe , “ “ ibid. Presbyters were chosen by the voyces , at least , by the allowance of the whole assembly . Vpon the Act. 14.23 . he saith : See Oecumen . in hunc loc. Also Badei Commentar. The force of this word Chirotonein , is to be noted , that wee way know Paul and Barnabas did nothing by their private will , neither exercised any tyrannie in the Church . He meaneth , that they here made Ministers by the peoples voyces , or free consent , & not otherwise . And vpon 1. Time . 5.22 . All the authoriti● ( of making Ministers ) was not in Timothie alone ; but election being made by the consent of the whole Church , then the President of the assemblie did consecrate him by laying on of handes . And on 2. Cor. 2.8 . By the publike consent of the Church declare that you embrace that penitent sinner againe as a brother , even as by the publike iudgement of the Church he was cast out . In all the which it is easie to see Maister Bezaes minde and resolution in this question to bee cleerely with vs . As for that which D. Downame “ “ Defens . 4. pag. 81. obiecteth out of him , where he calleth one Morellius † † De●grad . Ministr. 6.23 Fanaticall , because he pleaded in like maner for the popular governement . The D. abuseth Beza , and vs all . Morellius pleaded for the popular governement in far vnlike maner . He sought in Churches perfectly established to bring all things in particular , and ordinarily to the peoples hearing , examining , iudging , and voice-giving . But neither Beza , nor we intend so . Wee acknowledge that the ordinarie sway of all Ecclesiasticall authoritie ought to bee in the true Bishop , or Pastour of the church : and we affirme that right wel so it may bee , although never anie thing be imposed on the Church by him against their willes . Which thing D. Downame him selfe also acknowledgeth may be , and “ “ Def. 4. p. 21 was heeretofore in a state of the Church ( * * Rather about 420. about 400. yeres after Christ ) which hee seemeth to allow of . Saving that he cunningly falsifyeth the wordes of the Councill which there he mentioneth : to wit , in saying the assent or connivence of the people , where the Councill saith , “ “ Concil. Carth. 4. Can. 22. the assent and connivence . But to proceed : By this before alleaged , all men may see Maist. Bezaes iudgement in this cause to be ( as I said ) cleerely with vs . And so much concerning him .

In the second place we will consider Maister Calvin , 2. Calvin . a Pastor and Guide of the Church of Geneva before Mai. Beza . Hee also every where in all his writings is a most earnest patron of this point which heere we professe . I will note certain of his sentences to this purpose . Saith he : “ “ Instit. 4.5.15 . Est haec ex verbo Dei legitima Ministri vocatio , vhi ex populi consensu & approbatione creant qui visi suerint idonei . Preesse autem Electioni debent alij Pastores , nequid per levitatem , vel per malae studia , vet per tumultum à multitudine peccetur This is the lawfull calling of a Minister by the word of God , where they which seeme fit , are created by the consent and approbation of the people Indeed other Pastors ought to moderate and order the Election , least the multitude should offend through lightues , or ill affection , or tumult . And a litle before , Videmus ipsum ( Paulum ) ex populi suffragijs Episcopos creare solitum . We see that Paul him selfe was wont to create Bishops by the voyce giving of the people Againe , Falluntur qui putant vel Timotheum Ephesi , vei Titum in Creta regnum exercuisse , vt suo vterque arbi●rio omnia disponeret . Praefuerunt enim tantum vt bonis & salutaribus consilijs popul● praeirent : non vt soli exclusis alijs onnibus agerent quod placerent . They are deceaved who thinke either that Timothie at Ephesus , or Titus in Crete did practise a kingdome , that either of them disposed all at their owne will . Only they were over the people in going before them with good and holesome countails ; not that they alone did what pleased them , excluding all the rest . And presently hee sheweth , they did no more but crave the voyces , & moderate the people in chosing . And affirmeth that this is , Commune ius & libertas Ecclesiae , the common right and libertie of the Church , and that , not to bee diminished . And in another place hee saith , “ “ Cap. 5.2 . Etiamsi nihil aliud mali foret quitamen hoe excusare poterunt quod it a spoliaverint suo iure Ecclesiam ? Although there were no other evill , yet how can they excuse this that they have so spoiled the Church of her right ? And , † † Sect. 3. Est impia Ecclesiae spoliatio , &c. It is a wicked robbing or spoyling of the Church , so often as a Bishop is put vppon any people whom they have not desired , or at least have not approoved with a free voyce And , It it is a ly that they say , this is a remedy against the peoples tumultes . They had other wayes Eyther to prevent these faultes , or to correct them being committed But to say the truth , when the people began to be somewhat too negligent in holding their Elections , & did give ouer this care to the Presbyters , as a thing not so beseeming thē selves , they ( the Pres byters ) abused this occasion to take to thē selves a tyrannie , which afterward they confirmed with Canons . And vpon the Acts thus hee writeth : “ “ In Act. 3. ● . Est tyranicum , &c. It is tyrannicall if any one man make Ministers at his will . Therefore this is the lawfull way , that they be chosen by common voy●●● who are to exercise any publike office in the Church . And this is the meane betweene tyran●●e and confused libertie , that nothing in deed may bee done without the consent and allowance of the people : and yet the Pastors should moderate them &c. Likewise touching Ecclesiastical censure , and iudgement in generall , saith he : † † Instit. 4.11.6 . Contra ius & fas quod Ecclesiae datum erat , sibi vni vendicavit Episcopus . The Bishop against right and equitie , hath taken to him selfe alone , that which was given to the Church . And , Fuit facinus aimis improbum . &c. It was to wicked a fact , that one man , in translating to him selfe the Common power , made way for tyrannous lust , and tooke away that which was the Churches ow●e , and suppressed the Eldership ordayned by the Spirit of Christ . A game . Animadvertendum quod Paulus quam vis Apostolus forei , non pro sua libidine excommunicavit solus , sed consilium cum Ecclesia participat , vt communi authoritate res agat ur . It is to be marked that Paul though an Apostle , yet he did not excommuni are alone after his owne will but did participat the matter with the Church , that it might bee do●● by common authorttie . Thus plainly doth Calvin maintaine the peoples free consent in the Church governement alwayes .

To these we will adde Maister Viret , 3. Viret . a rare light of the Gospell , a pillar of the truth , and partner with Maist. Farell in planting the Church of Geneva before Calvin came there , “ “ Dialog. 20. The Church ( saieth hee ) in respect of the gouernement which Iesus Christ instituted , is a holy and free communaltie : which for the same cause is called a Communion of Saints , to the which generally ( and not to any one person particularly ) Iesus Christ gave the whole power & authoritie to edification and not to destruction . Quest. But if you so take it , there seemeth to me no order at all , but rather great confusion . Answer . That followeth not from that which I said . For first , the Church is not Headles , having Iesus Christ for a Head . Moreover , although the power and authoritie be given to the whole Communaltie of the faithfull , as it is in a Democratie ; yet nothing letteth but the Church should choose by her common consent out of the body of this Communitie certain men to have the speciall charge of exercising and administring the publike offices which are ordayned of God . &c. Question . Your meaning then is , that all the authoritie and power of Ecclesiasticall governement generally is given to the whole church . and therefore that it pertaineth to the same according to Gods word to choose them whom shee knoweth most worthie to exercise the publike Offices . &c. Answer . All that time wherein the Church was rightly governed according to Gods word , and not oppressed with tyrannie , she vsed that order alwayes And therefore it is more then necessary , that shee should alwayes keepe her right her power , & authoritie , which she receyved of God , &c. Question . And if they which execute speciall charge in the Church , do tollerate one another in ill doing , & them selves do give matter of scandall & scattering , hath not then the whole Church togeather power to correct them and to procure remedit to such evills ? Answer . Seeing the power whereof we speake is by Christ Iesus given to the whole church , who can take it from them ? Can they , to whom the church it self hath given it ? No truly , vnles they be tyrants &c. And againe . “ “ Dialog. 21. The Ministers ought not to give to thē selves alone the power which God gave to the whole church : vnles so as they execute their Office in the Name of the church , and after that her iudgement hath gone before . This is well to be noted that iniurie bee done to none , & that the Minister , exercise not tyrannie in the Church and that the governement serve not their affections . Thus plainly Maister Viret .

From these let vs ascend to the verie first Worthies who have brought vs the light of the Gospell in this latter age , Zuinglius and Luther . Zuinglius saith thus : “ “ Zuinglius Aruc . 31. Explanat . Quid audio ▪ What do I heare ? Can a Bishop alone excommunicate ? I thought it had ben given to the Church Christ saith , Tell the Church . Doth the Bishop or Abbot signifie the Church ? Excommunication is not one mans part , whosoever it be : but it is th● office of the Church . None therefore can excommunicate but that Church in wh● a 〈◊〉 dwelleth who offendeth by his sinne . The right of pronouncing against him is in t●e Church and the Pastor of the Church It remayneth then , that Christ commaunde●h that the sinner be shewed to the Church which we● call a Parish .

In another place likewise , “ “ Ad Valentiu●m Compa 〈◊〉 . Excommunicatio non in Episeoporum ( in Synodo Congregatorum ) sed in vntuscutusque paroeciae potestate & arbitrio sita est , eu●us● 〈◊〉 est impudentius peccantem ab Ecclesiae communione excludere . S● Christs veroa quae Math. 18. habentur penitùs inspiciamus , hune demum exc̄municatum esse deprehendere licebit quem communis Ecclesiae in qua quis habitat , cons●nsus exclusit . Excommunication is not in the Bishops ( gathered together in a Synod ) but it is in the power and free liking of every Parish , who only have power to exclude from the Churches communion the impudent sinner . If wee looke thoroughly into the worde● which are in Math 18. we may finde him only to be excommunicate ▪ whom the common consent of that Church , where the man dwelleth , hath shut out .

Againe , “ “ Epichirifis de Ganone Missae . Est particularis Ecclesia ea cu● preceptum est vt morbidum membrum resecet , Math. 18. quales ea Corinthi ad quam seribit Paulus , & aliae quarum se curam gere●●dicat , & quibus se pari modo docere asserit ●nquiens , Sollicitudo omnium Ecclesiarum : & sicut 〈◊〉 omnibus Ecclesijs doceo . That is a parti ulat Church which is commanded to cut of the infected member Math. 18. Chap. ● . Such as that of Corinth is , to which Paul writeth , and others which he saith be hath care of , and in which he affirmeth that he taught altogeather alike , saying , The care of all Churches , and , As I teach in all Churches . And concerning Calling to the Ministerie , he saith : * * Ecclesiaste● † It seemeth that there is nothing so agreeable to the ordinance of God . and to the old institution , as that all the whole Church of the faithfull amongst a people , togeather with certain learned and godly Bishops and other faithfull men having skill in things , should choose a Pastor . And after againe , Let therfore these proud Bishops and foolish Abbots goe shake their ●ares , For it is convenient that the right of the Election should be in the power of the church of the faithfull instructed by the counsaill of learned men . Moreover he writeth thus : “ “ Ad Valent , Compar . Hee that with a Councill of Bishops shall impose on Christian people any law or observation at their own liking ( he meaneth , without the peoples consent ) hic violento imperio ius Ecclesiae invadit . Hee invadeth the Churches right by a violent command And therefore such Bishops as thus doe , absque Ecclesia , without the Churches consent , statuentes suâ libidine , Artic. 64. decreeing at their owne pleasure , he saith , are nomine tenus Episcopi , reverà tyranni , in name Bishops , but in deed tyrants .

And thus much out of this holy man of God and noble witnes of Christ , Maister Zuinglius .

Maister Luther another mightie and Luther . principal champion for Gods truth at the same time , wrote a special treatise which hath this title , * * Tom. 2. pag. 374. Quod Ecclesia ●us & potestatem habeat indicandi de quavis doctrinâ , item vocandi Ministros Evangelij ; , aut si fideles esse desierint , deponendi . That the “ “ In this word he signifieth the Congregation of the people Church hath the right & power to iudge of any doctrine , also of calling the Ministers of the Gospell : or , if they cease to be faithfull to depose them . What can be more for vs then this is ? In another place he saith : “ “ Pag. 369. b. Chemnic . examp . part. 2.27 . a. Claves sunt totius Ecclesia . The Keyes belong to the whole Church . In his booke of the Privat Masse , hee speaketh to the Bishops of his time , thus : Spiritus Sanctus vui Civitats plures constituit Episcopos : Vos singuli ( estis ) pluribus . Quâ authoritate ? Nonne ipsius Satanae & c ? The holy Ghost appointed to one City many Bishops , but you are one Bishop to many Cities . By what authoritie ? Is it not of Sathan him selfe , by you opposing against the authoritie of the Holy Ghost ? We conclude therfore boldly , that you ( according to the Scriptures & the H Ghosts decree ) are not so much as to be called Bishops , but rather adversaries and destroyers both of Bishops , and of the Divine decree concerning the appointing of Bishops . Againe in his booke against the falsly named Order of Bishops , hee saith : † † pag. 322. At citra iocum vides palam . &c. But without iest thou seest openly that the Apostle Paul calleth only them Bishops , which do preach the Gospell and Minister Sacraments to the people , as in our time the parish Ministers and Preachers do . Therefore I beleeve without doubt , that they by fight possesse the title and name of Bishops .

And in another treatise : “ “ De Minist● . Eccles. instituend● , pag. 365. b. Donabo hoc ordmibus Papisticis , quod solius Episcopi autoritate instituuntur quos vocant Sacerdotes : consensu aut suffragio populi , cui preficiendi sunt , neque requisito nec obtento : cuius tamen cum sint populus Dei maximè intererat , vt non sine suffragijs suis quisquam eis imponeretur . I will yield this ( saith he ) to the popish orders , that Priestes ( as they call them ) are instituted by the authoritie of the Bishop alone : the c●nsent and voyce giving of the people over whom they are to bee set , neither sought nor obt●yned : whose chiefe right nevertheles it was ( seeing they are Gods people ) that not any one should be set over them without their voyce-giving . Thus teach these Pillars of the Gospell Zuinglius and Luther .

To whom wee will ad our two great lightes that shined sometyme in England , Maister Bucer , and P. Martyr . Bucer . Bucer hath these wordes : † † In Math , 16. ●9 . Haec potestas penes omnem Ecclesiam est : authoritas modo Ministerij penes Presbyteros & Episcopos . Ita vt Roma olim potestas populs fuit , authoritas Senatus . This power & sway of the governement is in the whole Church : but the authoritie only of ministration therof is in the Presbyters and Bishops . So as in old time at Rome the power was in the people , but the authoritie or direction was in the Senat.

In an other place he saith “ “ De regno Chr●●● . 1. ● . The Apostle accuseth the Corinthian● for that the whole church did not cast out of their company the incestuous person .

P. Martyr saith : 7. P Martyr . † † In ● . Cor. 16.15 . Fatemur claves Ecclesia vniversae datas . We confesse the Keyes are given to the whole Church . By the Keyes he meaneth Governement , and Ecclesiasticall power . Also hee saith : “ “ vers. 3. it is no mervaile that it is the Churches right to chose Ministers , seeing we see the Civill Lawes do give power to Townes to choose their Physicians and Scholemaisters at their owne liking . In an other place thus he saith : “ “ In cap. 5.11 . Quoniam in Ecclesia de negotijs gravioribus . & quae sunt maximi momenti , ad plebem ●efertur ( vt patet in Actis Apostolicis ) ideò polit●ae rationem habet . Because in the Church matters of waight are referred to the people to determine ( as it is manifest in the Ac●es ) therefore the Church hath a respect of the Popular governement , or Democracie . For so P. Martyr heere meaneth by politia , as wee may see if we look in the place . Also namely of Excommunication , hee saieth : Consentiente vniversa Eccsesia Excommunicetur . Hoc debet ist ad iudicium antecedere . Let Excommunication be with the consent of the whole Church This ought to go before that iudgement . And , Non absque consensu Ecclesiae quispiam excommunicari potest . lus hoc ad Ecclesiam pertinet , neque ab illâ eripi potest . Witthout the consent of the Church , not any one can bee excommunicated . This right belongeth to the Church , neither ought it to bee taken away from it . And , the consent of the people is still to be observed in Excommunication , both that tyrannie may be avoyded , & that it may be done with great●er fruit and gravitie .

The same worthy man greatly commendeth the pietie of a Bishop at Troie in France , who about the yeare 1561. left his Popish state and did betake him to a flocke of Christians there , Epict. ●● . and taught them the word of God purely . But quia ei gravis scrupulus ●iectus est de suâ vocatione quod in ed Ecclesis ac populi Elestionem seu Censirmationem u● is habuerit , ideò &c. Be●ause he had a great scruple in his conscience about his Cal●a●g , seeing hee had not therein the El●ction or Confirmation of the Church and people , Therefore hee sent for the Elders of the reformed Church , and desired them that they would consider godly and wisely , whether they would chose , confirme , and ha●e h●n for their Bishop . Which if they thought good to do , hee would doe his indeavour that as hee began , so hee would go on as hee was able , by teaching and exhorting to edifi●● and increase the Church committed to him But if they thought him not fit for so great an Off●●● they should speake it freely and openly , hee was ●eadie to give place , &c. And hee desired that they would speedily de●berate with the Church about the matter . Which when it was done , hee was acknowledged ●a● re●eaved of all with one consent as a true Bishop . Wherefore his authoritie and p●●i● doth much profit the Church of Chri●t . God bee praised who governeth and g●ideth the kingdome of his Sonne in this manner .

O where shall wee see such Bishops in these dayes !

8. Musculus . Musculus also speaketh and reasoneth cleerely with vs heerein . Hee saith : † † Com. plac . Of Min. Elect. There is no doubt but the Apostles ke●t that maner of ordayning , viz. after the church had chosen . And , After fasting and praying ( which was wont to be done in the Congregation of the faithful ) They ordayned Elders which were first chosen of the faithfull . And this forme of Electing and ordayning Elders and Bishops the Apostle commended vnto his fellow workman Titus , and Timothie , saying : “ “ Ti● . 1 - 5. For this cause I left thee in Crete . &c. For who would beleeve that he ordained that Titus should do otherwise , then both hee and the rest of the Apostles were accustomed to do . Therefore both by example and ordinace of the Apostle , in the primitive church Elders , Pastors , Bishops and Deacons were in the Ecclesiasticall Meetings , chosen of the people by lifting vp of handes . Also hee saith , The Forme of Election vsed in the Apostles times , is conformable to the libertie and priviledge of the Church whereof Cyprian made mention : and that forme of choise whereby men began to be thrust vpon the people of Christ beeing not chosen of it , doth agree to a Church which is not free , but subiect to bondage , And this forme of election by the peoples choise he calleth the Old , the Fittest , the Divine , the Apostolicall , and lawfull election : the other to come from the corrupt state of the Church and Religion .

9. Bullinger . Bullinger affirmeth thus ; “ “ Deca● . 5.4 . The Lord from the beginning gave authoritio to the Church to chose and ordayne fit Ministers . And , Those which thinke that the Bishop & Archbishop have power to make Ministers , vse these places of the Scripture , * * Tit. 1. Therefore I left thee at Crete ▪ that thou mightest appoint Elcers Towne by Towne : And againe , “ “ 1. Tim. 5. Take heed that thou lay not thy handes rashly on anie . But we answer , that the Apostles did not vse any tyranny in the Churches , nor themselves alone to have don these thinges which pertayned either to Election or Ordination , other men in the Church shut out . For the Apostles and Elders did create Bishops and Elders in the Church , but communicating their counsaill with the Churches , yea and with the consent and approving of the people .

Yea of Ministers that governe anic Church without or against their consent , thus he saith : “ “ In 1. Co● . 5.4 . V●bem prodere di●untur Legati qui diversum ab eo quod ab vrbe prescriptum est , agunt . Those embassadors are said to betray the Citie , who do any thing divers from that which is prescribed them by the Citie .

10. Gualter . Gualter likewise is as plaine as can be , Saith hee of the calling of Ministers : † † Ho●●il . in Act 13.1 . Divinitùs vocatos esse censebimus qu●scunque Dei spiritus donis necessarijs instruxerit , & legiti●●s Ecclesiae suffragijs elegerit . Aliquas enim in hac causa partes Ecclesiae mandatas esse hi● locus perspicuè tradit . Ecclesiae calculum spiritus requirit . We wil esteeme them to have a calling from God , whomsoever Gods spirit hath ●●abled with necessarie giftes , and hath chosen by the Churches lawful givi●g of voyces . For this place plainly shewe●h that in this cause there are some partes committed to the Church The Spirit requireth the Churches iudg●ment Afterward he saith , “ “ In Act. 14. ●● . Foedá tyran●ide Ecclesiarum slatus opprimitur . The state of the Churches is oppressed by filthy tyrannie where at this day the Churches have not this libertie to give their free consent at least . For heere he respecteth that right and iust order according to the rule of the Gospell which before he had described : † † In Act. 1. ●● Ministrorum verbi & Ecclesiae Electiones atque ordinationes non occultè intra privatos parietes à paucis homini●us , sed publicè ab Ecclesia & in totius Ecclesiae conspectu fieri debent . Neque no● movet quod Paulus alibi vni Tito vel Tim●theo ius & potestatem Episcopo● eligendi tribuere videtur . Non enim illos privata auth●ritate qui●quam agere voluit , sed pro antist●tum ●fficio iubet curare vt Ministri digni & idones legittimè crdinentur . Nec verisimile est , illis plus concessum fu isse quàm Apostolis ipsis , qui inconsulta Ecclesia nihil in hac causa vnquam statuerunt . Nam & paulo post Diaconos coram Ecclesia publicè eligunt , & Paulus oum Barnabá collectis viritim suffiagijs Presby●eres per Ecclesias singulas ordinavisse leguntur , Act. 6. & 3.4 . The Elections and ordinations of the Ministers of the word and of the Church , ought not to bee made secretly within privat walls by a few men , but publikly by the Church and in the face of the whole Church . Neither doth it moove vs , that Paul in an other place seemeth to give right & power of chofing Bishops to Titus alo●e , or to Timothie . For he would not that they should do any thing by their privat author●tie : but he commaundeth them to take care that worthy and fit Ministers bee ordayned , a●cording to the office of Guides and Overseers . N●ither is it likely , that more was graunted to them then to the Apostles themselves , who determined nothing in this cause at any time without the churches cousaill , or witbout taking the churches advise . For a little after they both chose Deacons publikly in the presence of the church , and Paul with Barnabas are read to have ordayned Presbyters throughout every Church , gathering the voyces of every man . Act 6 & 3.4 .

Arguitur exemple hoc corruptissimus idemque perniciosissimus Ministros eligends mos , quem tam seculis aliquot hâc in causa imper●um obtinuisse constat . Quofit , vt non raro v●us aliquis in pluribus Ecclesijs privata authoritate Ministros & Eligat & Ordinet . Quaete potissimum ab Abbatibus , Episcopis , & Prapositis peccaiur . Nec meitùs rem administrant nonnulli inter eos qui Evangelij nomine gloriantur , & Ecclesiarum reformatores baberi volunt . Dum enim isis malè vsurpata possessione Monachos & Episcopos ( vt par est ) eijeiunt , Ecclesijstamen libertatem illorum tyrannide ereptam non restituunt : Sed pro su● arbitrio administrant quae olim ab Episcopis & Monachis administrari solebant . Quod malum , nisi brevi reprimatur , & Simoni●m & exitialem omnis Ecclesiasticae Disciplina confusionem nobis pariet . Atque omne bo● Romanis Pontificibus debetur , &c. Maximè Calisto secundo : ex quo tempore Ecclesia libertas ceu lethali morbo contabescens tandem in vniversum evanuit . Quam quicunque restitutam volunt , sive illi verbi Ministri sint , sive Magistratus , huc incumbendum sibi esse sciant vt vetus Ministrorum eligendorum consuetudo in ducatur . By this example is reproved that most corrupt , & also most pernicious manner of chosing Ministers , which it is manifest , hath gotten Dominion & Lordly rule in this affaire now these certaine ages . Whereby it is , that not seldome one both choseth and ordayneth Ministers in many Churches by his privat authoritie Wherein chieflic the Abbots , As in England . &c. Bishops , and Rulers offende . Neither do divers others ( among those that glorie in the name of the Gospell and would be counted Reformers of Churches ) order this matter better . For while they put foorth the Monkes & Bishops ( as it is meete they should ) out of their possession wickedly vsurped , yet the libertie which they tooke away from their tyrannie , they restore not to the Churches : but administer those thinges at their owne will , which in time past were wont to bee administred by the Bishops and Monkes . Which evill , vnles it bee shortly repressed , it will bring foorth among vs both Simonie and also a deadly confusion of all Church D●●ciplice . And all this wee have from the Bishops of Rome , &c. Chieflie from Calistus the second . From which time the Churches libertie as it were languishing with a deadly sicknes , at last vanished away wholy . Which whosoever do desire that it may be restored , whether they be Ministers or Magistrates , let them know they must labour for this , that the old custome of chosing Ministers bee brought in againe .

11. Vrsimus . Vnto these we will adde Vrsinus who teacheth thus . Math. 18.17 . If he refuse to heare the Church , “ “ Catech. pa. 799.800 . Printed at Oxfor . An. 1589 let him be vnto thee as a Heathen & a Publican : In these wordes Christ expresly commaundeth all , whosoever ( beeing after this sort admonished by the Church ) will not repent , to bee by the common consent of the Church excommunicated vntill they repent . And whosoever are excommunicated , they againe professing and shewing in their actions amendment , are altogeather in lake sort receaved into the Church as they were exiled from it , namely by the iudgement of the Elders , by the consent of the Church , and the authoritie of Christ and the Scripture And that de●untiation whereby one is excommunicated , is not in the power of the Minister of the Church , but in the power of the Church , and is done in the name of the Church , because this Commandment was given by Christ vnto the church . For he saith expresly , Tel the Church .

12. Danaus . In 1 Tim. 5.22 Heere also Danaus is worthie to bee remembred : He saith , " Approbatio eligendi ( Ministri ) ad plebem & totum populum Ecclesia sanè pertinet . The approbation of the Minister to bee chosen pertayneth truly to the whole people of the Church .

Againe , Plebem non esse ab ordinationib● vocandorum & preficiendorum muneribu ; Ecclesiasticis exclud●ndam demonstant exampl● veteris Ecclesiae &c. That the people ●ught not to bee excluded from the ordinations of Ministers , the exam●les of the old Church do demonstrat , in which without doubt the Election by voyces of the whole Church was vsed as it is easie to be shewed in Act 6. & 14. Therefore they do perfidiously deprive the Church of her right , Perfidie . who thrust a Pastor on a people without their knowledge and consent . For they do the Church the greatest iniurie , when they spoile her of her iudgement and voyce giving . Sacrilege , or Church robbing . Who therefore are truly to bee called Sacrilegious , or Church-robbers . Neither indeed is he a lawful Pastor which is over a flocke being ignorant of his comming , or against their will or not consenting . Which presently after he sticketh not to applie to the callings of the Ministers in England , saying : Ex his omnibus apparet quam nulla sit , vel non legitima corum verbi Ministrorum Vocatio &c. By all this it appeareth how that calling of Ministers is none , or not lawfull , which is made by the authoritie letters , commaundement , and iudgement of the King alone , or Queene , or the Patrone , or Bishop , or Archbishop , &c. veluti in mediâ Angliâ : as it is vsed in England . Id quod dolendum est , which I speake with greefe .

Moreover concerning Excommunication he saith , “ “ In vers. 1. Hac iurisdictio est totu● quidem Ecclesia ratione potestatis : Prepositotum autem ratione exercitij & adminisirationis . This iurisdiction is the whole Chur●hes in respect of the power thereof : but it belongeth to the Guides of the Church in respect ●f administring it , namely populo assentiente , with the peoples consent : as hee addeth a ●ittle after . And againe , Executioni pu●lica censura intervenire debet notitia & con●ensus Ecclesia . The knowledge and consent of the Church ought to be in the execution of the publike censure .

13. Tilenus . Neither shall Tilenus testimonie bee vnremembred , who aunswering the Co●nt Lavl , that required him to shew what calling Calvin had , saith : “ “ Respons. ad Com Lavallium . quest. 3 The people of Geneva professing the Gospel , did first call Farel to be their Pastor , & then he & they called Calvin to be likewise . Applying Ciprians sentence thervnto , who avoucheth , “ “ Epist. 14. That the people most of all have power to chose worthy Ministers , and to refuse their vnworthy ones . After which he sheweth that the other churches els-where professing the Gospell & refusing Poperie , did likewise . They who had a calling from the church of R●me renounced it , resting on that which they have according to the rule of the Gospell .

14. Iunius . Also Iunius saith , † † Ecclesiastie . 3.1 . Simplicissimam quidem probatissimamque Eligendi & Vocandi viam illam esse constat ex Scripturae Sacrae testimonijs , quam Apostoli in Ecclesijs tenuerunt olim , & prisca Ecclesia aliquamdiu eos imitata observavit . Eligebat tota Ecclesia , id est , corpus ex Presbyterio & populo seu plebe constitutum , equis & communihus suffragijs . Haec iusta electionis ratio . It is manifest that that way of chosing and calling Ministers is most simple and most approoved by the testimonies of holy Scripture , which the Apostles in old time did keepe in the Churches , and the ancient Church sometime imitating them did observe . The whole Church did chose , that is , the Body consisting of the Eldership and people or common sort ) by equal & common voyces . This is the iust manner of Chosing Ministers . Afterward hee saith , This the old Church did observe very long , doneo res coeperunt ( vt fit humanitus ) in peius ruere , atque retrò sublapsa referri . Vntill ( as through mens corruption it comes to passs ) things began to grow worse , and to runne to ruine . And after that corruption in the Church government was come in , Yet ( saith he ) id semper obtinuit , vt Ecclesia actioni toti interesset , camque prasentiâ suâ haberet raetam . That alwayes was in force , that the Church was present at the whole action , and ratifyed it with their presence . But neither this in England is seene anie where , neither will bee allowed . Also Iunius saith , Where the Church at any time doth no more ( but ratifie matters by their presence only ) the Guid●t ought to certifie the Church , that if they can them selves take care for , & do their owne affaires , non fore pen●●●●l●um Episcoporum Seniorumve coetum vt 〈◊〉 si●i cum damno Ecclesia , iniuriae , & ignominâ arroget : It shall not be in the power of any as●embly of Bishops or Elders to arrogat so much to them selves with the Churches dammage , iniurie , and shame . Where hee professeth that this is the Church ●s dammage , iniurie , & shame , if ( being understanding Christians ) they be only present at the chosing and ordayning of their Ministers , if they do not also them selves chose , or at least freely & expresly consent to the chosing and ordayning of them . After , noting the tyrannie which was in this behalfe vnder the Pope , he saith : Iam de populo , quem Christus redemit suo sanguine & Ecclesiam sibi ex eo compararet , verbum nullum : Now of the people there was not one word , whom Christ redeemed with his bloud , that they might be his Church . And he addeth , Hinc illa barbaries , hinc colluvies selelerum omnium , hinc illa fraudum & nundinationū sentina exundavit . Hence came that barbarous ignorance in those times , that heape of all sinnes , that sinke of deceit and selling of the soules of men . Then speaking of some Churches & Magistrates who have worthily freed themselves from the Pope , yet hee leaveth this foule blot vpon them ; Ius illud Eccesiasticum institutionis & ordimationis restitut non curant Ecclesijs : They care not to restore to the Churches this right of theirs , viz of making & ordaining of Minister . Finally he answeceth some obiections .

At nescit populus , dixerit quispiam . Doceatur , & sciet . At nescit vti . Imo nesciet vnquam , Siture suo non vtatur vnquam . At factiosus est plerumque , & in diversas partes studiaque scinditur . Revocetur adpacem monitis salutaribus , & compescatur authoritate verbt , virorumque bonorum officijs , vt conciliatis & compositis animis faciant quod sui turis est . But some will say , The people is ignorant of their duty and right heerein . Let them be taught , and they wil vnderstand it . But they know not how to vse this their right . They will not know it ever , if they vse it never . But they are factious often , and are divided into partes . Let them be reduced to Peace by wholesome counsaill , and let them be ruled by the authority of the word , and the indeavours of good men , that their mindes being ordered , they may do that which is their right to do .

15. Piscator . About Excommunication Piscator saith , “ “ Observ . ex ● . cap. 1. Cor. Excommunication ought to bee don by the Church , or by the Presbyterie iudging in the name of the Church . Where all men may see his meaning to bee this , viz. that the Presbyterie may excommunicat , howbeit alwayes with the Churches free consent . For so he signifieth by these wordes , iudging in the name of the Church . It can not be that hee should meane , that they may Excommunicate by their owne power and right onely , or whether the Church will or no. After the same maner also ( I doubt not ) som , others do speake concerning the making king of Ministers . Whose sense and meaning is to be taken altogeather to that purpose likewise . In the Churches ●am● , that is , Executing the Churches ●uthoritie and power , and doing that which they do with their free con●ent and approbation .

16. Chemnici●● . Chemnicius , a man most famous & of ●are learning among the followers of Luther in the matter of the reall presence , yet in our cause hee saith thus : “ “ Exam. part . pag. 226. 227. 228. Non sine consensu Ecclesiae Paulus & Bar●abas invitis obtruserunt Presbyteros . Paul and Barnabas did not thrust Ministers on the Church being vnwilling , or without their ●onsent . And , Exempla Aposiolica bistoria ●●are oftendunt , &c. The examples of the Apostles storie do cleerely shew that Election or Vocation did belong to the whole church . And , Haec est Apostolicae , primitiva , & vete●● Eccesia sententia de legitima Electione & Vocatione Ministrorum , &c. This is the iudgement and way of the Apostolike , primitive , and ancient Church concerning the lawful Election and Calling of Ministers which iudgement and way hath place in those Churches which are constituted according to Gods word . And he addeth , In our Churches it is so : meaning in those that follow Luther .

17. Whitake● . Neither can I forget , that among ●ur owne Country-men D. Whitaker ●eacheth thus : “ “ De Cone●● . pag. 44. Quod omnes attingit ▪ ab ●●●●bus approbari debet . That which toucheth all , Chap. 4. ought to be approved of all . Meaning that nothing should bee obtruded vpon any people ( in Ecclesiasticall and Spirituall regiment , no not by Synods ) except the people consent to it . And this consent of the people ( hitherto avouched ) verily many other worthy Divines both among vs , & abroad do maintaine likewise . But I forbeare to nominate any mo Knowing that to whom any thing will be enough , these are enough .