A defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande conteininge an answeare to a certaine booke lately set foorthe by M. Hardinge, and entituled, A confutation of &c. By Iohn Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie. Jewel, John, 1522-1571. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A04468 of text S112182 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 14600.5). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 3820 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 416 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A04468 STC 14600.5 ESTC S112182 99847440 99847440 29028 2248525278

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A04468) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 29028) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 423:10 or 1899:2) A defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande conteininge an answeare to a certaine booke lately set foorthe by M. Hardinge, and entituled, A confutation of &c. By Iohn Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie. Jewel, John, 1522-1571. Jewel, John, 1522-1571. Apologia Ecclesiae Anglicanae. English. Harding, Thomas, 1516-1572. Confutation of a booke intituled An apologie of the Church of England. [24], 742, [18] p. In Fleetestreate, at the signe of the Elephante, by Henry VVykes, Imprinted at London : Anno 1567. 27. Octobris. At foot of title: Cum gratia & priuilegio Regiæ Maiestatis. Reprints both Jewel's "Apologia" and Harding's "Confutation". Signatures: A6, B5, A-3P6, 3Q8, 3R6. Includes index. This edition has "foorthe" in line 4 of title page; last quire is 3R⁶. Identified as STC 14600 at reel 423:10. Reproductions of the originals in the Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery and Harvard University Library. Appears at reel 423 (Henry E. Huntington Library and Art Gallery copy) and at reel 1899 (Harvard University Library copy). eng Jewel, John, 1522-1571. -- Apologia Ecclesiæ Anglicanæ -- Early works to 1800. Harding, Thomas, 1516-1572. -- Confutation of a booke intituled An apologie of the Church of England -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Church of England -- Apologetic works -- Early works to 1800. Church of England -- Doctrines -- Early works to 1800. eebo A defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande, conteininge an answeare to a certaine booke lately set foorthe by M. Hardinge, and entituled, A Jewel, John, 1567 832 651378 2676 0 0 0 0 0 41.08 D The rate of 41.08 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2005-12 Assigned for keying and markup 2006-01 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2006-02 Sampled and proofread 2006-02 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2006-04 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

A Defence of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande , Conteininge an Answeare to a certaine Booke lately set foorthe by M. Hardinge , and Entituled , A Confutation of &c.

By Iohn Iewel Bishop of Sarisburie .

3. ESDRAE . 4.

Magna est Veritas & praeualet .

Greate is the Truthe , and preuaileth .

ET INVENTA EST PERIIT printer's or publisher's device

Jmprinted at London in Fleetestreate , at the signe of the Elephante , by Henry Wykes .

Anno 1567. 27. Octobris .

Cum Gratia & Priuilegio Regiae Maiestatis .

TO THE MOSTE VERTVOVS , and Noble Princesse , Queene Elizabeth , by the Grace of God , Queene of Englande , France , and Irelande , Defender of the Faithe , &c.

IT had benne greatly to be wished , moste Gracious Soueraine Lady , that , as God of his mercie hath geeuen vs , euer sithence the first time of your Maiesties moste happy gouernmente , sutche successe in al ciuile affaires , sutche concorde , and quietnesse in al Estates , as our Fathers seldome haue seene before : so our hartes with like felicitie mighte thorowly haue consented in the profession of one vndoubted Truthe , and al our willes , whiche now are so violently rente a sunder , and so farre distracted , mighte fully haue ioined togeather in the Wil of God : that al quarrelles , and contentions set aparte , wee might with one mouthe , and one minde glorifie God , the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe . How be it , it appeareth by the continual storie , and whole discourse of the Holy Scriptures , that Almighty God , of his deepe Iudgements , and secrete Prouidence , suffreth some menne oftetimes to delite in darkenesse , to withstande the Gospel , to seeke occasions , and wilfully to sette them selues againste the knowledge , and Truthe of God . I write not this , Moste Gracious Lady , to th intente to make them odious in your Maiesties sighte , that this daie are the procurers of al these troubles . God is hable euen of the harde vnsensible stones to raise vp children vnto Abraham , and to make them the vessels of his Mercie . Neuerthelesse , as S. Paule teacheth vs , sutche menne there haue benne in times paste , 1. Timoth. 4. that haue had their Consciences burnte with hote irons , speakinge and maineteininge Lies in Hypocrisie : Roman. 1. that haue geeuen them selues ouer into reprobate , and wilful mindes , and haue despised the Wisedome of God within them selues . And , notwithstandinge sutche battailes , and dissensions , specially in the Churche of God , whiche is called the House of Vnitie , be offensiue , and greeuous vnto the Godly , and therefore woorke greate hinderance vnto the dewe passage of the Gospel of Christe , yet in the ende the trouble hereof in Goddes Electe is recompensed abundantely with greate aduantage . For Goddes Truthe is mighty , and shal preuaile : Dagon shal falle downe headlonge before the Arke : the Darkenesse shal flee before the Lighte : and the more fiercely mannes wisedome shal withstande , the more glorious shal God be in his Victorie .

But , shortely to discourse vnto your Maiestie the particulare occasions hereof from the beginninge , after it had pleased Almighty God , at the firste entire of your Maiesties Reigne , by a moste happy exchange , and by the meanes of your Maiesties moste Godly trauailes , to restoare vnto vs the Lighte , and comforte of his Gospel , there was written , and published by vs a Litle Booke in the Latine tongue , entitled , An Apologie of the Churche of Englande , conteininge the whole Substance of the Catholique Faithe , no we professed , and freely preached throughoute al your Maiesties Dominions : that thereby al foreine Nations might vnderstande the considerations , and causes of your Maiesties dooinges in that behalfe . Thus in olde times did Quadratus , Melito , Iustinus Martyr , Tertullian , and other Godly , and Learned Fathers , vpon like occasions , as wel to make knowen the Truthe of God , and to open the groundes of their Profession , as also to put the Infidels to silence , and to stoppe the mouthes of the wicked .

This Apologie , beinge thus written firste in Latine , and afterwarde , vpon the comfortable reporte of your Maiesties moste Godly enterprises , translated into sundrie other tongues , and so made common to the moste parte of al Europe , as it hath benne wel allowed of , and liked of the Learned , and Godly , as it is plaine by their open testimonies , touchinge the same , so hath it not hitherto , for ought , that maie appeare , benne anywhere openly reproued , either in Latine , or otherwise , either by any one mannes Priuate writinge , or by the Publique Authoritie of any Nation .

Onely one M. Hardinge , not longe sithence your Maiesties subiecte , nowe mislikinge the presente state , and resiante in Louaine , hath of late taken vpon him , againste the saide Apologie , with the whole Doctrine , and al the partes of the same , to publishe an open Confutation , and to offer the same vnto your Maiestie : wherin he sheweth him selfe so vehemente , and so sharpe , and busie in findinge faultes , that he doubteth not to seeke quarrelles againste vs , euen in that wee maineteine the Baptisme of Christian Infantes , the proceeding , and Godhedde of the Holy Ghoste , the Faithe of the Holy , and Glorious Trinitie , and the General , and Catholique Profession of the common Creede . Thus , for that he hath once seuered him selfe from vs , he beareth nowe the worlde in hande , wee can beleeue nothinge without an erroure .

The maigne grounde of his whole plea is this , That the Bishop of Rome , what so euer it shal like him to Determine in Iudgemente , Confu fol. 334. a. can neuer erre : that he is alwaies vndoubtedly possessed of Goddes . Holy Sprite : Conful . fol. 285. b. that at his onely hande wee muste learne to knowe the Wil of God : Confuta. 324. b. that in his onely Holinesse standeth the Vnitie , Confut. 204. b. and safetie of the Churche : that who so euer is diuided from him , Confut. 306. b. muste by iudged an Heretique : and , that without the obedience of him , there is no hope of Saluation . And yet , as though it were not sufficiente for him , so vainely to soothe a man in open Erroures , he telleth vs also sadly , and in good earnest , that the same Bishop is not onely a Bishop , but also a Kinge : that vnto him belongeth the Authoritie , Confut. fol 280. a. and righte of bothe Swerdes , Et 305. b. as wel Temporal , as Spiritual : that al Kinges , and Emperours receiue their whole power at his hande , Confu . fol. 247. b and ought to sweare obedience , Confu . fol. 248. b. and Fealtie vnto him . For these be his woordes , euen in this Booke so boldely dedicate vnto your Maiestie : Confu . fol. 178. b. It is a greate eie soare , saithe M. Hardinge , to the Ministers of Antichriste , to see the Vicare of Christe aboue Lordes , and Kinges of this worlde , and to see Princes , and Emperours promise , and sweare obedience vnto him . And whereas Pope Zacharie by the consente , Confut at . Folio 178. b. or conspiracie of the Nobles of France , deposed Chilperichus , the true , natural , and liege Prince of that Realme , and placed Pipinus in his roume , Loe , saithe M. Hardinge , yee must needes confesse , that this was a Diuine power in the Pope : for otherwise he coulde neuer haue donne it . Thus mutche he esteemeth the dishonoures , Confutat . Fol. 182. a. and ouerthrowes of Goddes Anointed .

Whereas also Pope Boniface the Eighth , for that he coulde not haue the Treasurie of France at his commaundement , endeuoured with al his bothe Ecclesiastical , and Worldly puissance , to remoue Philip the French Kinge from his estate , and vnder his Bulles or Letters Patentes , had conueighed the same solemnely vnto Albertus the Kinge of Romaines , M. Hardinge here telleth your Maiestie , that al this was very wel donne , to th intente thereby to fraie the Kinge , and to keepe him in awe , and to reclaime his minde from disobedience . Now , Confut. Fol. 182. b. touchinge your Maiesties moste Noble Progenitours , the Kinges of this Realme , whereas wee , as oure loialtie , and allegiance bindeth vs , iustely complaine , that Pope Alexander . 3. by violence , and tyrannie forced Kinge Henrie the Seconde to surrender his Crowne Emperial into the handes of his Legate , and afterwarde for a certaine space to contente him selfe in Priuate estate , to the greate indignation , and griefe of his louinge Subiectes : And that likewise Pope Innocentius the thirde sturred vp the Nobles , and Commons of this Realme against kinge Iohn , and gaue the Enheritance , and Possession of al his Dominions vnto Ludouicus the Frenche Kinge , ( as for the misusinge of your Maiesties moste deere Father of moste Noble Memorie , kinge Henrie the Eighth , for as mutche as the smarte thereof is yet in freshe remembrance , I wil saie nothinge ) : To these , and al other like Tyrannical iniuries , and iuste causes of griefe , M. Hardinge shortely , and in lighte manner thinketh it sufficiente to answeare thus : What though Kinge Henrie the Seconde were il entreated of Pope Alexander . M. Harding . Fol. 340. b. 3 ? What though Kinge Iohn were il entreated of that Zelous , and Learned Pope Innocentius . 3 ? What though Kinge Henrie the Eighth were likewise entreated of the Popes in our time ? If know right wel , Moste Souer aine Lady , the goodnesse of your Graceous Nature deliteth not in sutche rehearsalles . Neither doo I make reporte hereof , for that sutche thinges sommetimes haue benne donne : but for that the same thinges euen nowe at this time , either so lightely are excused , or so boldely are defended . Sutche humble affection , and obedience these menne by their open , and publique Writinges , teache your Maiesties true Subiectes to beare towardes their Natural Prince . It shal mutche warrante the honoure and safetie of your Roial Estate , if your Maiestie shal sommetimes remember the dishonours , and dangers , that other your Noble Progenitours haue felte before you .

But concerninge the Maiestie and right of Kinges , and Emperours , M. Hardinge telleth vs , M. Harding . Fol. 318. b. They haue their firste Authoritie by the Positiue Lawe of Nations , and can haue nomore Power , then the people hath , of whome they take their Temporal lurisdiction : as if he woulde saie , Emperours , and Kinges haue none other righte of Gouernmente , then it hath pleased theire Subiectes by composition to allowe vnto them . Thus he saithe , and saithe it boldely : as if God him selfe had neuer saide , Prouer. 8. Per me Reges Regnant : By mee , and my Authoritie Kinges beare rule ouer theire Subiectes : Or , as if Christe our Saueour had neuer saide vnto Pilate the Lorde Lieutenante , Iohn . 19. Thou shouldest haue no Power ouer mee , were it not geeuen thee from aboue : Roman. 13. Or , as if S. Paule had not saide , Non est potestas , nisi a Deo : There is no power , but onely from God . And yet further , as if their whole studie were fully bente to deface the Authoritie , and Maiestie of al Princes , euen nowe one of the same companie doubteth not to teache the worlde , Dorman . Fol. 15. That the Pope is the Heade : and Kinges , and Emperours are the feete : Like as also an other of the same faction saithe , The Emperoures Maiestie is so farre inferiour in dignitie to the Pope , Stanislaus Or●chouius in Ch●maera , Fol. 97. as a Creature is inferiour vnto God . Wee diuise not these thinges of malice , Moste Graceous Lady , but reporte the same truely , as wee finde them proclaimed , and published this daie by theire vaine , and dangerous writinges , whiche notwithstandinge they woulde so faine haue to be taken as Catholique . If this Doctrine maie once take roote , and be freely receiued emongest the Subiectes , it shal be harde for any Prince to holde his Righte .

As for your Maiestie , for that it hath pleased Almighty God in his Mercie , to make you an instrumente of his Glorie , as in Olde times he made many other Godly , and Noble Princes , to refourme his Churche from that huge , and lothesome heape of filthe , and rubble , that either b , violence , or by negligence had benne throwen into it , therefore M. Hardinge euen in this selfe same Booke , vnder certaine general threates , chargeth you with disordred presumption , by the example of Ozias the wicked Kinge , M. Harding . Fol. 298. a. vpon whom , as he vntruely saithe , God sente his vengeance for the like . For be the Abuses , and Errours of the Churche neuer so many , be the falles , and dangers neuer so greate , be the Priestes , and Bishoppes neuer so blinde , yet , by this Doctrine , it maie neuer be lawful for the Prince , be he neuer so learned , or so wise , or so Zelous in Goddes cause , to attempte any manner of Reformation . And therefore thus he saithe vnto your Maiestie , and with al his skil , and cunninge , laboureth to perswade your Maiesties Subiectes , if any one , or other happily of simplicitie wil beleeue him , that the Godly Lawes , whiche your Maiestie hathe geeuen vs to liue vnder , are no Lawes : that your Parlamentes , Confuta. 277. Confut. 328. a. Confuta. 172. b. Reioind . 314. Confut. 87. a. Confut. 269. b. Reioind 42. a. Confut. 43. a. Confut a. 269. a. 323. b. 334. a. 338. a. 348. b. are no Parlamentes : that your Cleregie , is no Cleregie : Our Sacramentes , no Sacramentes : Our Faithe , no Faithe . The Churche of Englande , whereof your Maiestie is the moste Principal , and Chiefe , he calleth a Malignante Churche , a Newe Churche erected by the Diuel , a Babylonical Tower , a Hearde of Antichriste , a Temple of Lucifer , a Synogoge , and a Schoole of Sathan , ful of Robberie , Sacrilege , Schisme , and Heresie . And al this he furnissheth with sutche libertie of other vncourteous , and vnseemely talkes , as if he had benne purposely hired to speake dishonour of your Maiesties most godly dooinges .

Of al these , and other like Tragical fantasies , for as mutche as he hathe so boldely aduentured to make a presente vnto your Maiestie , wee haue great cause to reioise in God , for that our controuersies are brought to be debated before sutche a personage , as is hable so wel , and so deepely to vnderstande them . For I haue no doubte , but as by your greate Learninge , and marueilous Wisedome , you shal soone see the difference of our Pleadinges , so of your Maiesties graceous inclination vnto al Godlinesse , you wil readily finde out the Falsehedde , and geeue sentence with the Truthe . Verily , after that your Maiestie shal haue thorowly considered the manifest Vntruthes , and corruptions , togeather with the Abuses , and Errours of the contrarie side : the Weakenesse of the Cause , the Boldenesse of the Man , and the immoderate Bitternesse of his speache , I haue good hope , the more aduisedly you shal beholde it , the lesse cause you shal finde , wherefore to like it .

For the discouerie hereof , for my poore portion of Learninge , I haue endeuoured to doo , that I was hable : And the same here I humbly presente vnto your Maiestie , as vnto my most Graceous , and Soueraine Liege Lady , and , as now , the onely Nource , and Mother of the Churche of God within these your Maiesties moste Noble Dominions . It maie please your Maiestie graceously to weighe it , and to iudge of it , not accordinge to the skil , and habilitie of the Writer , whiche is but simple , but accordinge to the weight , and woorthinesse of the Cause . The poore labours haue benne mine : the Cause is Goddes . The goodnesse of the one wil be alwaies hable to countreuaile the simplicitie of the other .

God euermore enflame , and directe your Maiestie with his Holy Sprite , that the Zele of his House maie thorowly deuoure your Graceous harte : that you maie safely walke in the waies of your Father Dauid : that you maie vtterly abandon al groaues , and Hille Aultars : that you maie liue an Olde Mother in Israel : that you maie see an ende of al dissensions , and stablishe peace , and Vnitie in the Churche of God . Amen .

Your Maiesties moste Humble Subiecte , and Faithful Oratoure , Iohn Sarisburie .
I. S.

Good Christian Reader , I haue heere sette before the certaine principal flowers of M. Hardinges modeste speache . Taste no more , than maie wel like thee . And iudge thereof , as thou shalt see cause .

M. Hardinge , in the Preface before his Confutation of the Apologie .

The manner of writinge , whiche I haue here vsed , in comparison of our Aduersaries , is sober , softe , and gentle , &c. And in respecte of theire heate , bitternesse , and railinge , as many telle mee , ouer colde , sweete , and milde .

Againe , in the same Confutation .

There is no man of Wisedome , or honestie , that woulde with so immoderate vpbraidinges , empaire the estimation of his modestie . Fol. 300. b.

M. Hardinge . Your Diuellishe spite . Reioinder . fol. 18. b. Your Diuellishe wickednesse . Reioinder , prefa. to the Reader . Your Diuellishe Villanie . Confuta . fol. 256. b. Your railinge woordes of Sathans prompring . Reioinder . 67. 2. You are ioined to Sathan . Sathan your Scholemaister . Reioin . 12. b. Yee are moued by the instincte of Sathan . Confuta. 43. b. 255. a. Your Father the Diuel . Conf. 2. a. Your Babylonical Tower . Confut. 42. a. Your Newe Church sette vp by Sathan . Con. 42. a. The Diuel hathe you faste bounde . Con. 24. a. Yee are of the Schole of Sathan . Con. 69. b. Your Sathanical Sprité . Cōfuta . 111. b. Yee are the Children of the Diuel . Con. 115. a. A Page , a Slaue , a Clawebacke of the Diuel . Confuta. 131. a. Yee are the limmes of Antichriste . Con. 202. a. Yee are the practised Ministers of Antichriste . Confu . 195. b. Yee haue taken a paterne from Sathan ▪ Con. 323. b. Your reprobate Congregation . Con. 338. a. Your Synagoge of Sathan . Con. 341. b. Your confuse ●entes of Sathan . Con. 334. Your Synagoge of Antichrist , and Lucifer . Confuta. 212. b. The Heard of Antichriste . Confu . 48. a. The Nouice of the Diuel . Confu . The Diuel , and his Ministers . 116. b. Yee haue learned of the Diuel . Con. 128. b. Your Father the Diuel . Confu . 348. b. Sathan your Maister . Confuta. 348. b. Sathans broode . Con. 348. He hathe conceiued hatred by the inspiration of Sathan . Con. 288. b. Sathan holdethe you captiue . Con. 342. b. The Sptite of Sathan is in you . 172. a. Yee are faste bounde in Sathans fetters . Con. 68. a. Yee are enimies of Vnitie . Con. 55. b. Enimies of the Sacrifice . Confu . 67. a. Yee are loose Apostates . Confu . 323. Sacrilegious Churcherobbers . 323. Theeues . Con. 155. b. Abominable . Con. 17● . a. Lecherous Lourdaines . 75. b. Profane Helhoundes . Confuta. 114. b. Despisers of God . C. 131. b. Your wicked , and blasphemous Sprite . Your darke , and malitious Soule . Reioind . 104. Your heresies . blasphemies , Sathanismes . Your filthy railinge rabble . Con. 75. b. Coluinistes , Sathanistes . Confu . 81. b. Your wicked Chams● broode 114. b. Your profane malice . C. ●29 . b. Your vilenesse . 135. a. Your damnable fide . 135. a. Your blasphemous tongues . Your detestable blasphemies Your Diuellishe rabble . 209. b. Your Turkishe Huguenotes , woorse than Infidels . 282. b Your Malignante Churche . Your Congregation of Reprobates . Con. 269. b. Your vile heresies 339. a. Your Diuellishe stoutenesse of harte . Your Turkishe , and Heathennishe harte . 295. b. Your Turkishe doctrine . ibi . Yee bragge Lucifer like . 173. b Yee speake villanie . Youre quarrel is againste Christe . Con. 178. b. Yee would saie , if ye durst , that Christe is the Abomination of desolation , and Antichriste is the True God . 194. a. When were there euer su●che Theeues in the Churche of God . 201. a. Your Doctrine is Heresie , your life is iniquitie , 172. b As crafty knaues in a Comedie . Reioind . 22. a. Vaine bragginge , Vanitie , Scurrilitie , extreme impudencie , passinge madnesse . proude vauntinge Goliathlike . Re. in pre. 2. He is a foole . 186. Reasonlesse , witlesse . Reioind . 192. a. Foolishe Negatiues . R. pre . Thei are Apes . Con. 1. b They are Asses . Any sotte would be ashamed to make sutche argumentes . Con. 51. b. He hath on his fooles coate if he plaie the Vise wel , and Verletlike . Re. 251. b. The canker of this false doctrine . Reioind . prefa. False Gospellers . Re. pre . Vnshamefaste . 94. a. Impious . Impudente , 123. a. Yee are paste al shame . 186. a A greate Lier . Boldenesse in Lieinge . Yee Lie for a vantage . Your fchole of Lieinge . Yee professe Lieinge . False Lies . Impudente Lies . Vaine Lies . Bolde Lies . Lowde Lies . Fowle Lies . Shamelesse Lies . Railinge Lies . Manifeste Lies . Notorious Lies . Sclaunderous Lies . Horrible Lies . Wee wil proclaime you a Lier . 258. b. Your Libertie of lieinge . Your Arte of lieinge . 218. b. Your Figure of impudente Lieinge . 253. a. Yee be desperate in youre Lieinge . 277. b. You Lie in the plural number . 303. a. And what shal I saie more but al is Lies . 255. b. Leaue your Railinge . Re. We like not your Railing . 80. a. I leaue your vile eloquence to your selfe . 111. b. Your Railinge termes . Your vile eloquence . Your scoldinge tale . Your spiteful woordes . Con. 149. b. Your rancoure . Your spite . Your filthy Railinges . Your vile vpbraidinges . Con. 175. Your Malitious Railinge . 184. b. Your false cankered sclau●ders . 184. b. Cease your barkinge . Reioind . prefa. to the R●a . The poison of your tongue Reioind . prefa. Your droppe of poison . Your Serpentine tongue . Reioind . 67. a. Sutche crakinge Chalenlengers . Re. prefa. Your Railinge Sprite . Spit out your Malice . Spit out your poison . Reioind . prefa. Your hote raginge Sprite . Con. 3. a. Spit foorthe youre galle . Confu . 23. a. Your Heresies , and Villanies . Con. 10. b. Your vaine boaste in wickednesse , wrought by the power of Sathan . 19. b Your filthy railinge rabble . 75. b. It liketh your filthy Sprite . 101. a. Yee cursed Chananees . 121. b What crake ye● 128. b. The Diuel the Scholemaister of your Malice . 168. a. Luther , that filthy Freeze . 192. a. your bawdy Bale . 168b . Brentius , that shamelesse railinge Hereuque . 288. a Cough vp the cromme of your Heresie . Re. 167. b. Cough out that vile poison . Re. 80. Your Diuellishe Blasphemie , and Villanie . 256. b. A blaste of your railinge Sprite , 266. b. Luthers stinking sinke . 42. b Zuinglius rabble . 42. b. Your vile , spiteful , blasphemous talke . Re. prefa. If there were any spaike of shame in you . 94. a. The stinking breath of your vile woordes . m. b. This Defender is like a mad Dogge . 207. b. Your vile , venemous , and lothesome stuffe , 246. b. I wold I could plucke malice from your blasphemous harte . 292. b. With sutche spitefulnesse of woordes , as the Diuel hathe enrspired them withal . Con. 342. b. It spiteth you , and the Diuel . 279. a. Raile , and reuel while yee wil . 254. a. Yee raue , and crie , out . 177. b. The findes of Hel were not yet let loose , that begate Lutherians , and Caluinistes . Confu . 183. b. The Diuel comminge from Helle , hathe carried you awaie . 225. b. In youre hartes the Diuel hath made his shop . 132. a. Yee shal be bounde hande and foote with the cordes of the Diuels clewe . 292. a. The Diuel possesseth you , and rideth you . 255. a. The Sprite of the Diuel is within you . 255. Yee boile in rancoure , and malice . 269. b. Stampe , and rage . Sturdy dogge eloquence . 42. b. Stinte your barking . R. pre . The Diuel reigneth in your hartes . 87. b. Maugre the malice of the diuel , and of al the Sacramentaries . 95. b. Your Malice seemeth to passe the malice of the Diuel . Re. prefa. Yee barke with woordes more vile , then the barkinge of a dogge . Re. Raile vntil youre tongues burne in your headdes in Helle fire . 112. a. Barke vntil your bellies breake , yee Helhoundes of Zwinglius and Luthers lit●oure . 178. b. Without al witte , and modestie . Con. 170. b. Cunerus petri de Brouwersha●en . Pastor S. Petri Louanij indignus approbauit . An. 1565. 10. Aprilis .
M. Hardinge , in his Preface to M. Iewel before the Reioinder .

Wee spare your woorshippes , and put you in minde of your outrage with more Courteous language . Againe : I seeme to menne of right good discretion , rather to offende of lenitie , and softenesse : And many doo wishe , I had tempered mine inke with sharper ingredience .

Thus mutche onely out of the Heape . For to laie foorthe al , it were to make an other Booke .

One demaunded this Question of Zoilus the Railet .

Why takeste thou sutche pleasure in speakinge il ?

Zoilus made answeare .

Bicause , whereas I woulde rather doo it , I am not hable .

Scoffes , and Scornes . M. Hardinge hereof thus reproueth his Aduersarie . Your scorneful scoffes . Re. prefa. Your Lothesome scoffes . Re. prefa. Your scoffinge Sprite . Confu . 19. Yourir kesome cuttes . Re. prefa. Your arte of scoffinge . Re. prefa. Your scoffinge heade . 284. a. Yee sauce your wordes with scoffes . 29. 76. Yee plaie Hickscorner . Re. prefa. Yee plaie the Vise in an Enterlude . Re. pre . Your boieishe and Childishe disposition . 314. b. Your hoieishe scoffes . 300. a. Your boieishe mockeries . 149. a. Your bitter twitinges . ibidem .
M. Hardinge of him selfe . Sutche grace in writinge I neither vse , nor couete , nor haue I it : nor if I had it , shoulde I thinke it meete to vse . The Truthe of God would not be sette foorthe with scoffes . Whose desire to vnderstande the Truthe is colde , the same is to be tuarred vp rather with graue and earneste exhortations , then with scornes , and mockes . Reioind . In the Preface to the Reader . M. Hardinges perfourmance of the same . His Ministerlike talke : with somme fadde Hypocrifie . Re. prefa. His Euangelical meekenesse . Ful coldely , and demurely he promiseth . Re. 18. b. His solemne Praier protestantelike . Re. 18. b. His Rhetorical persuasions in pulpite : with holy holdinge vp of handes , and casting vp of eies to Heauen . Re. prefa. His Ministringe woordes . Re. 235. His pulpite buzzing . R. pre . His holy Companions . 170. b This blessed Brotherhoode . Confu . 1● . b. Yee speake like a liberal gentleman . Con. 284. a. This gaie Rhetorician . Redioind . prefa. This ioily felowe . 9. a. This ioily Defender . 53. b. This woorthy Captaine . Re. 31. b. This substantial Doctoure . Cuckowlike . His glorious Sermon , prefa. His worthy courage . R. pre . He proueth it like a Clerk . 115 Wel , and Clerkely reasoned forsoothe . 219. a. His foresaide woorshipful reasons . 276. a. His Clerkely prowes . 149. b Like propre gentlemen . 140. a Thei haue tried them selues like proper menne . 139 b. Luther your Radix lesse . Con. 42. b. Caluine your Patriarke . ●0 . a Your greate Rabbine Peter Martyr . Con. 82. a. Nowe come in these reuerende Fathers of our newe Clergie . Re. 155. a. Our ministring Clergi . 146. a Our ministring Prelates . 63. a Our newe Gospel Prelates . Our M. Iohn of Sarisburie . 251. b. Howe saie yowe Sir Minister Bishop ? 56. b. The confusion of your Goliathship . Re. prefa. Yee speake mutche of your Ministershippes goodnesse . 170. b. This is false , sauing your Ministerships . Con. 347. b. Your Superintendenteshippes . 256. b. Your Maisterships . Re. pre . Your Masshippes . 247. a.
M. Hardinge . Confuta . fol. 209. b.

Thus wee comme within you Defenders , as it were : and claspinge with you , wring your weapon out of your hande : and with the other ende of it strike you downe : As it is not harde to vs , by learninge to ouerthrowe you . &c.

A Viewe of Vntruthes , Wherewith M. Hardinge thus chargeth his Aduersarie . Aristotle beinge once asked , what a common Lier gained by his Lieinge , answeared thus : That when he telleth Truthe , noman wil beleeue him . Confuta. 159. a. Who seeth not , and almoste feeleth your Lies ? 176. When wil yee foresake the Schoole of Lieinge ? 179. a. Yee are good in the arte of Lieinge . 218. b. Yee haue sworne to belie al the world . 245. a Wee haue taken you tardie in so many , and so manifeste Lies . 159. a. Beinge disposed to Lie , he woulde Lie for a vantage . 157. b. Lie so longe , as yee liste . 150. a. Al menne doo espie your Lieinge . 150. b. A sumpe of Lies . 5. a. Carteloades of Lies . 175. A man for his Life cannot finde one leafe , in it without many Lies . 219. Lieinge to this felowe is Accidens Inseparabile . 273. b. Make of it , what yee wil. A lie is a lie . 155. b. The number of Vntruthes , vttered of M. Jewelles parte , noted , and Confuted by others , and by mee , amounteth to a thousande , and odde . M. Hardinge in the Preface to the Reader before his Reioinder .
The B. of Sarisburie . Here , good Christian Reader , I haue thought it needefull , for thy better satisfaction , to géeue thee a shorte viewe of these so horrible , & so shameful Vntruthes : that by a sewe , thou maiste be hable , to iudge the better of the reste .
A Viewe of Vntruthes . Reioinder , Fol. 1. The B. of Sarisburie . Here appereth smal hope , that M. Hardinge wil deale plainely in the reste , that thus maketh his firste entrie with * a Cauil . M. Hardinge . 1. Vntruthe . For it is no Cauil . The B. of Sarisburie . Whereas the * mater is knowen , & agreed vpon , it is great ●olie , to pike a quarrel vnto the woorde . The mater is , what is meante by priuate Masse . M. Hardinge . 2. Vntruthe . It is not knowen , nor agreed vpon . The B. of Sarisburie . Euery Masse , saithe M. Hardinge , is * common , & none Priuate . M. Hardinge . 3. Vntruthe . I saie not so , but with addition , whiche maketh certaine limitation . The B. of Sarisburie . If there be * no Priuate Masse at al , then was there no priuate Masse in the primitiue Church : whiche was my firste assertion . M. Hardinge . 4. Vntruth . It is not saide , There is no Priuate Masse at al. For there is Priuate Masse , as Priuate is taken in an other sense . The B. of Sarisburie . M. Harding in his . 22. Article , entreating of the Accidentes of Breade , & Wine , &c. calleth that thinge Priuate , that is disputed in open Audience , in the hearinge of fiue hundred , or moe , and is sette abroade to the knowledge of the worlde . M. Hardinge . 5. Vntruthe . In that place I speake not hereof , but of M. Iewelles fine laste Articles . The B. of Sarisburie . He saithe , These maters were neuer taught in open Audience , but Priuately disputed in the Schooles . M. Hardinge . 6. Vntruthe . I saie not so , but otherwise . The B of Sarisburie . As for the Masse , sommetimes he maketh it the Sacrifice , sommetime the * Communion &c. M. Hardinge . 7. Vntruthe . I neuer saide the Communion to be the Masse . The B. of Sarisburie . If the Sacrifice be common , why doothe he géeue it these Priuate Cities , This for the Liuinge , This for the Deade , & c ? M. Hardinge . 8. Vntruther . I geeue not the Sacrifice these Titles . The B. of Sarisburie . He saithe , It is a feaste , & therfore it is common . And thus he salueth one errour with an other . M. Hardinge . 9. Vntruthe . It is no erroure , to saie , The Communion , whiche is in the Masse , is a Feaste . The B. of Sarisburie . What if the Priestes wille be , to woorke Necromancie , or Sorcerie , as it is reported of Pope Hildebrande ? M. Hardinge . 10. Vntruthe . This is not veported by any graue , and true writer : But by them that flattered the Emperoure of that time . A Replie . This storie is largely set out by Beno , Cardinale of the Churche of Rome . Vrspergensis saith , Manifestum Necromanticum . An. 1080. The B. of Sarisburie . What if the Piestes wille be , to poison some body , as Henrie the Emperoure was poisoned in the Communion Breade ? M. Hardinge . 11. Vntruthe . He was not so poisoned : but died otherwise . A Replie . Vrspergensis saith , Quidam Religiosus tradidit Imperatori intoxicatam Eucharistiam . An. 1313. Likewise saith Auentinus , Bap. Egnatius , Supplementum Chronicor . Raui . Textor , Carion . &c. The B. of Sarisburie . Pope Victor was poisoned in the Chalice . M. Hardinge . 12. Vntruthe . He died otherwise . A Replie . He died euen so . Reade Martinus Polonus , Volaterranus , Matthaeus Palmerius , Supplementum Chronicorum , Fasciculus Temporum , Raui . Textor , Anselmus Rid , Massaeus Cameracensis , Vrsperg . Pag. 230. The B. of Sarisburie . Lyra saithe , Many miracles are wrought in the Churche * to mocke the people . M. Hardinge . 13. Vntruthe . Lyra saithe it not . 14. Vntruthe , To wocke the people , is not in Lyra. A Replie . The woordes of Lyra be very plaine , Aliquando in Ecclesia fit maxima deceptio populi in Miraculis fictis à Sacerdotibus , vel eis adhaerentibus , propter Lucrum : Sommetimes euen in the Churche the the people is shamefully deceiued with feined Miracles , wrought either by the Priestes , or els by their companions , for lukers sake . In Daniel . Ca. 14. The B. of Sarisburie . S. Hierome saith , Dominica Coena omnibus debet esse Communis . M. Hardinge . 15. Vntruthe . S , Hierome is not the Authoure of those briefe Commentaries . A Replie . Thes are printed emonge other S. Hieromes woorkes , and are commonly knowen by his name : but by any other Anthours name they are not knowen .

These he fiftiene of the firste horrible greate Lies , that M. Hardinge hath so aduisedly noted in his Reioinder . It were but loste laboure to proceede further . As these are , euen so are the reste .

Nowe , good Reader , maie it please thée , to take a prouse of other Vntruthes , that after greate trauaile , & seekinge , he hath likewise founde out in the Apologie .

The Apologie . Parte 2. Cap. 4. Diuis. 2. The Councel of Carthage prouided , that no Bishop shoulde be called either the Highest Bishop , or the Chiefe Prieste . M. Hardinge . 1. Here , Sir Defender , yee plaie false . Yee are taken with false Dice . False plaie , shameful falsifieinge , false teachinge , false sleight , forginge of Canons , your Lie your falsehedde . Shame on you Defender . How so euer this Canon be construed , it taketh no place out of Aphrica : and therefore cannot iustely be alleged againste the Bishop of Rome . The Replie . The woordes of the Councel , alleged by Gratian , are these : Primae sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum , vel Summus Sacerdos , vel aliquid huiusmodi : Sed tantùm , primae Sedis Episcopus . Vniuersalis autem nec etiam Romanus Pontifex appelletur . The Apologie . Parte 2 Cap. 12. Diuis. 2. Calixtus decreed , that the Consecration beinge finished , al the people shoulde Communicate &c. M. Hardinge . 2. Vntruthe . This Decree had Relation vnto the Priestes , Deacons , and Subdeacons , and not vnto the people . The Replie . Here M. Hardinge is soone reproued euen by his owne Doctours , Durandus , Hugo , Cochlaeus , Clichtoueus . For thus they saie , Omnes olim , tum Sacerdotes , tum Laici cum Sacrificante communicabant &c. Hîc vnicum hac de re Canonem recitabo . qui Calixto adscribitur . The Apologie . Parte 2. Ca 8. Diuis. 2. Gregorius Nazianzenus saithe , speakinge of his owne Father , that a good , & a diligent Bishop dooth serue in the Ministerie neuer the woorse , for that he is Married , but rather the better . M. Hardinge . 3. Vntruthe . Yee make manifeste Lies . Yee vse your accustomed figure Pseudologia , whiche is Lieinge in plaine Englishe , &c. How coulde he saie , that a Bishop serueth in the Ministerie neuer the woorse , but rather the better ? &c. The Replie . This erroure of M. Hardinges grewe of Ignorance . For Nazianzenes woordes be very plaine : Meo Patri Mater mea , data illi à Deo , non tantùm Adiutrix facta est , sed etiam Dux , & Princeps , verbo , factoque inducens illum ad res optimas &c. In pietate non verebatur seipsam illi Magistram exhibere . In Epitaphio Patris . The Apologie . Parte 6. Ca. 5 ▪ Diui. 2. Pope Liberius was a fauourer of the Arian Heretiques . M. Hardinge . 4. Vntruthe . That you saie of Liberius is starke false . He neuer fauoured the Arians . The Replie . The Authoure hereof is S. Hierome , De Ecclesiasticis Scriptoribus . In Fortunatiano . And one of M. Hardinges owne principal Doctoures saithe , De Liberio Papa constat fuisse Arianum . The Apologie . Parte 6 Ca. ▪ 5. Diui. 2. Pope Zosimus corrupted the Councel of Nice . M. Hardinge . 5. Vntruthe . Yee belie Zosimus : He corrupted not the Councel of Nice . The Replie . This matter moste plainely appeareth by the Recordes of the Councel of Aphrica . The Apologie . Parte 6 Cap 5 Diuis. 2. Pope Iohn helde a detestable opinion touchinge the immortalitie of the Soule . M. Hardinge . 6. Vntruthe . That you reporte of Pope Iohn , is likewise moste false . The woorste that Marsilius , and Ockam wrote of him , is , that he taught openly , that the Soules of the luste see not God , vntil the daie of Iudgemente . That he had any detestable opinion of the Immortalitie of the Soule , there was no sutche his opinion : But it is your false sclaunder : by whiche your wicked , and detestable maltce , yee imagine to deface the Authoritie of the Holy See Apostolique . The Replie . Gerson in Sermone Paschali : Pope Iohn 22. decreed , that the Soules of the wicked should not be pounished , before the daie of the laste Iudgement . Whiche erroure the Vntuersitie of Parise condemned for Heresie , and caused the Pope to recante . Concil. Constantien . in Appendice . In primis Quin imò Iohannes Papa . 22. dixit , & pertinaciter credidit , Animam hominis cum corpore humano mori ▪ & extingui , ad instar animalium brutorum . Dixitque , mortuum semel , etiam in Nouissimo Die , minimè esse resurrecturum . The Apologie . Parte 6. Ca. 6. Diui. 1. The Canonistes sale , The Pope can doo as mutche , as Christe him selfe can doo . M. Hardinge . 7. Vntruthe . The moste parte hereof is very false , and sclaunderous . Mentiris in your Diuinitie is a Verbe Commune . The Replie . The woordes be moste manifeste , & out of al question : Excepto peccato , Papa potest , quicquid Deus ipse potest . Extra , De translatione Episcopi . Quanto . Hostien . The Apologie . Parte 6. Ca. 6. Diui. 1. Somme of them haue saide , The Pope is the Lighte , that is comme into the worlde : And , who so is an il dooer , fleeth that Lighte . M. Hardinge . 8. Vntruthe . If yee were hardely charged , to shewe , where he saide it , or , where he wrote it , yee would be founde a Lier , as in many other pointes yee are founde already . That he neuer wrote it in any of his eloquente Italian Sermons , set foorthe in Printe , I am assured . And more hath he not set foorthe . Nowe it remaineth , that yee telle vs , where he saithe so or els confesse your sclaunderous Lie . The Replie . In the Oration , that Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto pronounced in the Councel of Tridente , yee maie finde these woordes : Papa Lux venit in Mundum : Sed dilexerunt homines tenebras magis quàm Lucem . The Apologie ▪ Parte 4. Ca. 1. Diui. 1. They haue decreed , that a Prieste , for Fornication ought not to be remoued from his Cure . M. Hardinge . 9. Vntruthe . This is a foule Lie . And herein these menne moste shamefully haue sclaundered the Churche : as , by that I haue saide , to any man it maie appeare . The Replie . But vnto the beste learned Canonistes it appeareth farre otherwise . Panormitane saithe , Hodiè ex Simplici Fornicatione Clericus non deponitur . Extra . De Consangui . & Affini . Non debet . Likewise it is solemnely noted in great letters in the Margine , Fornicationes causa hodiè nemo est deponendus . The Apologie . Parte 6. Ca. 14. Diui. 1. In the Councel of Chalcedon the Ciuile Magistrate condemned iiJ . Bishoppes , Dioscorus , Iuuenalis , & Thalassius , for Heretiques , & gaue Iudgemente , that they shoulde be deposed . M. Hardinge . 10. Vntruthe . That al these three were condemned in that Councel ▪ wee finde not . Mutche lesse . that they were condemned by any Ciuile Magistrate , doo wee finde &c. What is impudencie ? What is licentious Lieinge ? What is deceiteful dealinge , if this be not ? The Replie . These be the woordes , pronounced openly in the Councel , Videtur nobis iustum esse , eidem poenae Dioscorum Reuerendum Episcopum Alexandriae , & Iuuenalem Reuerendum Episcopum Hierosolymorum , & Thalassium Reuerendum Episcopum Caesariae Cappadociae subiacere . Concil. Chalcedonen. Actione . 1. Pag. 831. Reioinder . Fol. 251. b. The B. of Sarisburie . M. Harding healpeth it forewarde with a litle prety false translation of his owne . For , whereas it is written in the Latine , Cùm benedixisset Sancta , He translateth it thus , When he had consecrated the Sacrament . And likewise these woordes , Post finem Orationum , he translateth thus : After he had donne the Praier of Consecration . M. Hardinge . 11. Vntruthe . Gentle Reader , consider , how falsely M. Iewel demeaneth him selfe . These woordes , Post finem Orationum , thou findest not at al in al this 32. Diutision . If they be not here , why reproueth he me for vsinge a prety false translation ? This is not a prety , but a grosse , and a shamelesse kinde of falsehed , to charge we with that , whiche here I saie not . The Replie . It is in the very next Diuision . Therefore this mater needed nothinge so greate adoo . The Apologie . Parte . 2. Ca. 13. Diui. 1. Origen saithe , The Breade , whiche is sanctified by the Woorde of God , &c. M. Hardinge . 12. Vntruthe . Alleginge Origen , Sir Defender , yee plaie your accustomed false plaie , corruptinge his sentence , and falsifieinge his woordes . He saith , Ille cibus , not , Ille Panis . The Replie . Yet Origen in the same place calleth it seuen times , Panis . Therefore this was but a simple mater , to make sutche a Tragedie of false plaie . The Apologie . Parte . 2. Ca. 1. Diui. 1. S. Augustine saithe , Although the Matestie , and Godhedde of Christe be euerywhere , yet the Body , wherein he rose againe , muste needes be in one place . M. Hardinge . 13. Vntruthe . S. Augustine in that Treatie hath not that woorde , Oportet , but this woorde , Potest : as the Bookes haue , that be not corrupted by the mainteiners of that Heresie . The Replie . Gratian reportinge this place of S. Augustine , vseth this woorde , Oportet . Thus he saithe in moste plaine wise , Corpus , in quo Christus resurrexit , In Vno loco esse Oportet . De Consecr. Dist. 2. Prima . Likewise saithe Petrus Lombardus reportinge the same , in Vno loco esse Oportet . Lib. 4. Dist. 10. Sunt item . But before them al S. Peter saide , Oportet illum Coelos capere vsque ad tempora restitutionis omnium . Actorum . 3. These , I trowe , were not the maineteiners of any Heresie . The Apologie . Parte . 5. Ca. 3. Diui. 11. The Olde Councel of Carthage commaunded nothing to be readde in the Congregation , but the Canonical Scriptures . M. Hardinge . 14. Vntruthe . This Booke is ful of Lies , and falsified places . This Olde Councel is newely falsified . The woordes be , Vt praeter Scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine Diuinarum Scripturarum . It foloweth in the same Decree , Liceat etiam legi Passiones Martyrum , cùm Anniuersarij dies eorum celebrantur . The Replie . This Obiection is very true : albeit not greatly to the pourpose . For , as the Decrée cutteth of al secrete , or vnlaweful Scriptures , so it suffreth nothinge els to be read in the Churche , but onely the Passions , or deathes of Martyrs , and that onely vpon the Martyrs Anniuersarie : whiche was , for one Martyr , but onely one daie in the yeere . Nowe lette M. Hardinge telle vs , what , and howe mutche there remained biside , to bee read in the Churche , sauinge onely the Canonical Scriptures . Howe be it in the same thirde Councel of Carthage , there bee other woordes founde sommewhat plainer , & more pregnante , then these . For in the saide Councel of Carthage , the Councel of Hippo was abbridged . In whiche Abbridgemente this Decree is read emongest others : Scripturae Canonicae in Ecclesia legendae quae sunt : & praeter quas alia non legantur . These woordes were abbridged , and authorized in the saide thirde Councel of Carthage : as it is plaine by the Title of the same : Concilij Hipponensis Abbreuiationes factae in Concilio Carthaginensi Tertio . In mistakinge of whiche woordes I muste needes confesse mine erroure . For by ouersight , I thought , the Councel of Carthage had benne abbridged in the Councel of Hippo , as it maie appeare by my answeare in this Booke , Fol. 519. Whereas contrariwise , the Councel of Hippo was abbridged in the Councel of Carthage . This in deede of my parte was an erroure . And I thanke M. Dorman , that hathe geeuen mée occasion , better to consider the same . Notwithstandinge , as I saide before , the woordes be plaine , Praeter quas ( Scripturas ) alia non legantur . The Apologie . Par. 5. Cap. 11. Diui. ● . The Canonistes this date vse to saie of the Pope , that for so mutche as he is Lorde of al benefices , though he sel Bishoprikes , Monasteries , Benefices , and Spiritual promotions for monie , yet he cannot committe Simonie , though he would neuer so faine . M. Hardinge . 15. Vntruthe . Whereas it is written in Summa Angelica , In Curia Romana , titulus De Simonia non habet locum , The selfe same Summe vseth this distinction , saieinge , Verum est in ijs , quae sunt Simoniaca de Iure positiuo solùm : sed non in ijs , quae sunt Simoniaca de lure Diuino . Whereby he meaneth , that concerninge Simonie , whiche properly is so called , the Pope is no lesse subiecte thereto , then any other man . Thus haue you shamefully belied Summa Angelica . The Replie . Hereby it appeareth , that M. Hardinge vnderstandeth not his owne Summa . For by Simonia de Iure positiuo , is meante the sale of Bishoprikes , and Benefices , &c. whiche , as this Summa saithe , the Pope maie freely selle for monie , without empeachemente of any manner of Simonie . For beter proufe whereof Theodoricus saithe , Papa non potest committere Simoniam . Sic tenent Iuristae . Quia Simonia excusatur per Authoritatem Papae . De Schismate inter Vrban . & Clemen . lib. 2. cap. 32. An other saithe : Papa non committit Simoniam recipiendo pecuni●m pro collatione Beneficiorum 〈◊〉 shamefully wee belie Summa ●●gelica . 16. Vntruthe . In the fourthe parte . 7. chapter , and. 4. Diuision of this Booke , touchinge that most vile , and shameful abusing of Franciscus Dandalus Gentleman of Venice , that was driuen to wallowe vnder the Popes table in a chaine like a Dogge , reported , as M. Hardinge saithe , by Sabellicus in the first Booke of his Seconde Decade : I haue answeared , as then I thought , accordinge to truthe , that Sabellicus wrote no Decades , but onely Enneades : as it might appeare by his woorkes printed either at Basile by Heruagius , or otherwhere by any other . Sithence I vnderstande , that there is nowe extante an other Booke of Sabellicus , by the name of Decades , set foorthe of late at Basile by Coelius Secundus Curio , An. 1560. Vnderstande thou therefore , good Reader , that herein I folowed sutche Bookes of Sabellicus , as had benne long abroade , and were wel acquainted among the learned . But that there should any other newe Booke of Sabellicus be printed afterwarde , specially so longe after the Authours death , I coulde not prophesie .

These , and sutche other , good Christian Reader , be our Vntruthes , so many in number , and of sutche weighte , that M. Hardinge thinketh him selfe wel hable easily with the same to lode a Carte . Confu . fol 175. a. To al these so many , and so many , so horrible , and so blasphemous Lies , Goddes Holy name be blessed , wée maie truely saie with S. Paule , 2. Cor. 6. Tanquam seductores : & ecce veraces : Wee are called deceiuers : and yet wee saie the Truthe .

How be it , I doo not so warrante euery parcel of any my writinges , as though there were nothinge therein conteined , but might safely be iustified in al respectes , and againste al quarrels . Sutche reuerence , by S. Augustines iudgemente , wée ought to géeue onely to the Woorde of God . Nomans Learninge or memorie was euer infinite . But of al others , I acknowledge mine to be the weakeste .

If I haue at any time mistaken either Authoure for Authoure , or Name for Name , or Chapter for Chapter , or Booke for Booke : as whereas in the allegation of Pope Leo , in stéede of these woordes , Indiuiduam Vnitatem , I wrote , Indiuiduam Trinitatem : or , whereas in stéede of these woordes , Paulinus ad Romanianum , I wrote , Paulinus ad . Augustinum , the saide Epistle of Paulinus beinge mingled with a whole Booke of the Epistles of S. Augustine : Or , if vpon any other like 〈◊〉 , I haue alleged either Liberius for Athanasius , or the Arians for the Euty 〈◊〉 , or any one Father , or Doctoure , for an other , sutche errours , beinge bolde of malice , were neuer hitherto accoumpted damnable . The beste Learned haue oftentimes fallen into them .

For prouse whereof , it were easy to saie , that Cicero , notwithstanding otherwise a great Learned man , alleged Aiax in stéede of Hector , Agamemnon in stéede of Vlysses , Eupolis in stéede of Aristophanes : That Aristotle alleged Calypso in stéede of Circe : That Gratian allegeth Aniceus for Anicetus , Ambrosius for Augustinus , Calixtus for Anacletus , Greeke for Latine , Newe for Olde : That Hippolytus allegeth the Apocalyps of S. Iohn in stéede of Daniel : That S. Chrysostome nameth Abacuk for Sophonias , and Agar for Sara . If thou be desirous to sée these seueral errours further proued , it maie please thee to sée mine Answeare to this s , Fol. 362.

That in the alleginge of Liberatus I leaste out this woorde , Quodammodò , it was onely an Erroure . For why I should of pourpose doo it , there was no cause : specially that woorde bearinge in that place no greatter weight . But M. Hardinge alleginge these woordes of S. Augu. in Psal. 33 Augustine , Christus quodammodò ferebatur in manibus suis , M. Hard. in his Answeare to the Chalenge . Fol. ●08 . b. not of erroure , but , as it maie be thought , of set pourpose , leafte out , Quodammodò , as knowinge , that in that one woorde reasted the meaninge of the whole .

Briefely , what so euer other like erroure shal be found in any my writinges , I wil discharge bothe my Clerke , and the Compositoure , & the Printer of the same , & take the whole vpon mée self . I speake not this for that I thinke , my Booke can be printed without erroure : for that , in sutche a number & varietie of allegations , were scarcely possible . But if any erroure , what so euer , shal escape , as I doubte not but there wil many , I proteste before him , that séeth the harte , it walbe wholy againste my wil.

And yet maie not these menne so charge others , as if they them selues onely were priuileged , and exempted from al sutche dangers . M. Hardinge maie remember , that he him selfe in stéede of the Prophete Osee , Confut. 46. a. hath alleged vs the Noble Iosua : and , Confuta. 312. b. that by an other like ouersight , he hath alleged the Eighth Booke of Socrates Scholasticus , whereas Socrates neuer wrote but Seuen : As likewise also M. Dorman allegeth the Seuenth Booke of the Storie of Theodoretus , Dorman , Fol. 22. whereas Theodoretus him selfe neuer wrote but Fiue . And againe , he fraieth al Christian Princes with the horrible Examples of the Twoo Kinges , as he saith , Dorman , Fol. 24. Ozias , and Oza . Yet he might easily haue learned , that Oza was a poore Priuate man , and neuer knowen to be a Kinge . Notwithstandinge , in one of his late litlewoorthe Pamflettes , confessinge his ouersight herein , he stumbleth into an other Erroure , Dorman , in his Requeste . Fol. 13. as fowle , as the first , and bewraieth his ignorance more then before . For nowe he telleth vs , he hath better remembred him selfe , that the saide Oza was not a Kinge , but onely a Prophete . And yet yewis , a childe could haue tolde him , that the same Oza was neither King , nor Prophete , but onely a Leuite . Let him looke better on his bookes , and he shal finde it .

Howe be it , I woulde not , that either M. Hardinge , or M. Dorman shoulde thinke , that therefore they are here charged with ignorance . Errours wil créepe bitwéene theire fingers , be thei neuer so watcheful . In the heate , and drifte of writinge , when the minde is wholy occupied , and fully bente to the substance of the cause , it is an easy mater , by somme confusion , one waie , or other , to disorder a woorde , or to displace a number , as to write either 9. for 6. or , 24. for 42. or somme other like : whiche errour , though it be light in dooing , yet in the reckeninge oftentimes is very greate . To leaue other Examples , M. Hardinge him selfe in his Confutation of the Apologie , Confut. 47. a. Reioind . Fol. 287. a. in stéede of the 22. of Luke , hathe printed the 2. of Luke . Likewise in his Reioinder , Reioind . Fol. 287. a. in stéede of these woordes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he hath printed , and sente vs quite the contrarie , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . In one Booke of the Newe Testamente set out at Colaine , in stéede of these woordes , 1. Corin. 6. Neque Scortatores Regnum Dei possidebunt , yée shal finde it by erroure printed thus , Neque Sacerdotes Regnum Dei possidebunt . To be shorte , M. Hardinge in this selfe same Booke , in stéede of these woordes , Confut. 332. a. Lulled a sleepe , by erroure hath printed , Lulled a sheepe . If al sutche childishe aduantages shoulde be taken , then coulde no writer escape vncontrolled .

Thus , good Christian Reader , by the shorte Viewe of these fewe Vntruthes , for so it pleaseth these menne to calle them , thou maiste the better weigh the value and substance●● of the 〈◊〉 .

Tedious Repetitions .

M. Hardinges often rehearsal , and doubling of one thing hath forced mee sommetime to doo the like . Whiche thing , good Reader , if vnto thee it shal séeme ouer wearisome , I praie thee to consider the occasion thereof . My meaninge was onely to doo thee good .

To the Christian Reader .

IT pitieth mee in thy behalfe , good Christian Reader , to sée they conscience thus assaulted this daie with so contrarie Doctrines of Religion : and specially if thou haue a zele to folowe , and séeste not , what : and wouldeste faine please Eod , and knoweste not , howe : nor findeste thée selfe sufficiently armed with Goddes Holy Sprite : nor hable either to discerue thy meate from poison , or to vnwinde thée selfe out of the snares . 2 Corin. 11. For Satan transfourmeth him selfe into an Angel of Light : The wicked is more watcheful , and vehemente , then the Godly : and Falsehed is oftentimes painted , and vewtified , and shineth more glorious then the Truthe .

These be the thinges , 2. Tim. 2. Matthae . 24. 2. Tim. 2. Iohan. 10. Roman. 8. that , as S. Paule saithe , woorke the subuersion of the Hearers : and by meane whereof , as Christe saithe , if it were possible , the very Bsecte of God shoulde be deceiued . Howe be it , God knoweth his owne : and no Power can pusse them out of his hande . God is hable to woorke comforte out of confusion , and to force his light to shine out of darkenesse . Al thinges woorke vnto good vnto them , that be in Christe Iesu . Be Falsehed neuer so freashely coloured , yet in the ende the Truthe wil conquere .

Notwithstandinge , God in these daies hath so amazed the Aduersaries of his Gospel , and hath caused them so openly , and so grossely to laie abroade their folies , to the sight , and face of al the world , that noman nowe , be he neuer so ignorante , can thinke , he maie iustely be excused . They deale not nowe so suttelly , as other Heretiques in old times were woont to doo : thei hide not the lothsomenesse of their errours : they cloke not them selues in Shéepeskinnes : they dissemble nothinge : they excuse nothing : but , without either shame of man , or feare of God , they rake vp those thinges , that before were buried , that themselues had forsaken , the wise had abhorred , the worlde had lothed . It had benne more policie for them , to haue yeelded in sommewhat , and to haue staied in the reste . So there might haue appeared somme plainenesie in theire dealinges .

But this is Goddes iuste iudgemente , that they , that wilfully withstande the Truthe , Esai . 30. shoulde be geeuen ouer to mainteine Lies , as beeinge the Children of Vntruthe , Children , that wil not heare the Lawe of God .

For trial whereof , I beseeche thée , good Reader , aduisedly to peruse these fewe notes , truely taken out of M. Hardinges late Confutation . Iudge thereof , as thou shalt sée cause . Let no affection , or fantasie cause thinges to séeme otherwise , then they be .

The twoo principal Groundes of this whole Booke are these : M. Harding . fol. 334. b. First , That the Pope , although he maie erre by personal errour , in his owne Priuate Iudgement , as a man , and as a particulare Doctour in his owne opinion : yet as he is Pope , as he is the Successour of Peter , as he is the Vicare of Christe in Earthe , and as he is the Shepheard of the Vniuersal Churche , in Publique Judgement , in deliberation , and Definitiue Sentence , he neuer erreth , nor neuer erred , nor neuer can erre : As if he woulde saie , The Pope walkinge in his Galerie is one man : and fittinge in Consistorie , or in Iudgemente , is an other : Whiche thinge to holde , Alphonsus de Castro saithe , Alphons . lib. 1. Cap. 4. it is mere folie . Yet is this M. Hardinges chiefest , or rather , as I might in manner saie , his onely grounde .

The Seconde is this , Confu . Fol. 16. b. Fol. 261. b. The Churche of Rome is the whole , and onely Catholique Churche of God : and , who so euer is not obediente vnto the same , muste be iudged an ●●leretique . These twoo groundes beinge once wel , and surely laied , he maie builde at pleasure , what him listeth .

As for the Pope , the better to countenance his estate , he saithe , that Peter receiued thee , I beséeche thee to consider , with what indifferente Iudgement M. Harding woulde haue thée to passe bitwéene vs .

Firste he saithe , What should wee seeke for Truthe ? Reioind . In 〈◊〉 Preface to 〈◊〉 Reader . * iij * iiij a. * iiij b. ** ij . a. Let vs onely beholde the custome of the Churche . Againe , What Argumentes , what Assegations , what shewe of disproufe so euer he bringe againste these thinges , wee ought to make smal accoumpte thereof . Againe , I would blesse mee selfe from him , as from the Minister of Satan , and as from the Disciple of Antichriste , and as from Goddes open , and professed enimie . Againe , M. Iewelles Replie , and other like Hereticol Bookes , are vnlawful to be readde , by order of the Churche , without special licence : and are vtterly forebidden to be readde , or keapte , vnder paine of Excommunication . And againe , Reioind . In 〈◊〉 Preface to 〈◊〉 Iewel . 〈◊〉 . As for the Replie , none other waie wil serue , but to throwe al into the fire .

Of the other side , touching the Woorde of God , with most terrible woordes he fraieth thée from it , and biddeth thee to consider of other thinges , and to behold , I knowe not , Confu● . 212 〈◊〉 Reioind . in 〈◊〉 Preface to 〈◊〉 Reader . what . Yee prostitute the Scriptures , he saith , as Baudes doo their Harlottes , to the Vngodly , Vnlearned , Rascal people : Againe , Prentises , Light Personnes , and the rifferaffe of the people : And againe , The Vnlearned people were keapte from the Reading of the Scriptures by the special prouidence of God , that pretious stoanes should not be throwen before Swine . M Har. in his Answeare , Artic. 15. Diui. 7. In sutche regarde these menne haue , as wel the Holy Scriptures , as also the People of God . The scriptures they resemble to common Harlottes , and the vileste creatures of the stewes : The people of God they calle , Vngodly , Rascalles , Rifferaffe , and Filthy Swine .

Thus he suffereth thée not to reade , either my poore Booke , whereof thou shouldest Iudge : or the Holy Woorde of God , whereby thou mightest he hable to Iudge : but onely biddeth thée to folowe him , and to saie , as he saithe : and al is safe . Thus , firste he blindeth thine eies , and then willeth thee to looke aboute , and to condemne the thinge , Hierony . in Esaiam , lib. 9. ca. 30. thou neuer kneweste . So saithe S. Hierome , Isti tantam sibi assumunt Authoritatem , vt siue dextra doceant , siue sinistra , id est , siue bona , siue mala , nolint Discipulos ratione discutere , sed se praecessores sequi : These menne take so mutche vpon them selues , that , whether they teache with the Right hande , or with the Lefte , that is to saie , whether they teache good thinges , or badde , they wil not haue theire Hearers , or Learners , to enquire causes , wherefore they shoulde doo this , or that : but onely to folowe them , beeing theire Leaders .

But beware , I beséeche , thée , good Christian Reader . A simple eie is soone beguiled . It is very course Woolle , that wil take no coloure . It is a desperate cause , that with woordes , and eloquence maie not be smoothed . Be not deceiued . Remember , of what maters , and with what Aduersaries thou haste to deale . With feace , and reuerence be careful of thine owne Saluation . Laie downe al affection , and fauoure of parties . Iudge iustely of that shal be alleged . Onlesse thou knowe , thou canste not Iudge : Onlesse thou heare bothe sides , thou canste not knowe . If thou like ought , knowe , why thou likeste it . A wise man in eche thinge wil searche the cause . He , that cannot iudge golde by sounde , or insight , yet maie trie it by the poise . If thou canste not weigh these maters , for want of Learninge , yet , so sensible , and so grosse they are , thou maiste féele them with thy fingers . Thou maiste soone finde a difference bitwéene Golde , and Brasse : bitweene Iacob , and Esau : bitwéene a Face , and a Visarde : bitweene a fuile Body , and an emptie Shadowe .

Saie not , Thou arte settled in thy Beliefe , before thou know it . Vaine Faith , is no Faithe . August De Tempore . Sermon 145. August . in quae●ion . Veter . Testamen quaest. 43. S. Augustines counsel is good : Beleeu : nomore of Christe , then Christ hath willed thee to beleeue : Nemo de Christo credat , nisi , quod de se credi voluit Christus . Likewise he saithe , Fides stulta non prodest , sed obest : Fonde Faith is hurtful , and dooth no good . S. Hilarie saithe , Non minus est , Deum fingere , quàm negare : Hilar. in Psal. 1. To diuise fansies of God , it is as horrible , as to saie , There is no God .

The Anciente Father Tertullian , speakinge of the Enimies of the Crosse of Christe , that disdeigned to submitte theire willes to the wil of God , saithe thus : Amant ignorare , Tertull. in Apologetico . cùm alij gaudeant cognouisse . Malunt nescire , quod iam oderunt . Adeo ' quod nesciunt , praeiudicant id esse , quod , si scirent , odisse non possent : They desire to be ignorante , whereas other folkes desire to knowe . They woulde not knowe the Truthe , bicause they hate it . ( What so euer it be ) they imagine it to be the same thinge , that they hate . But if they knewe it in deede , thei coulde not hate it . Let Reason leade thee : let Authoritie moue thée : let Truthe enforce thée . The Wiseman saithe , Eccles. 2. Who so feareth the Lorde , wil not be wilful againste his Woorde . God of his mercie confounde al Errours : géeue the Victorie to his Truthe : and Glorie to his Holy name , Amen .

From London . 27. Octobris , 1567.
❧ AN ANSWEARE TO A CERtaine Booke lately set foorth by M. Hardinge , and entituled , A Confutation of the Apologie of the Churche of Englande .
The Title of the Apologie . AN Apologie , or answeare in defence of the Churche of Englande , with a briefe , and plaine declaration of the true Religion professed , and vsed in the same .
The Confutation by M. Hardinge .

Whereas these defenders take vpon them the name of the Churche of Englande , The de●enders likened to Esopes Asse . settinge forth thereby a face of auctoritie , they do muche like the Asse that Esope telleth of , whiche , to make the beastes afrayed , had put on him a Lions skinne , and therewith ietted abroade terribly . For as the Lions skinne was but lapped about him , The wonte of all Herctiques . Heretiques likened to Apes . The name and reputation of the Churche chalenged by Heretiques . and grewe not to his bodie : so they beinge in deede no liuely members nor parte of the Churche , couer them selues vnder the title and name of the Churche , the rather to begyle the simple . And verely herein they folowe the wonte of all Heretikes . For neuer was there any secte of Heretikes hitherto , whiche hath not claimed to be accompted and called the Church . For whiche cause of certaine auncient Fathers they haue bene likened to Apes , whose propertie is , though they be Apes , yet to counterfeit men , and to court to seeme men . Nouatianus , at saithe S. Cyprian , after the manner of Apes , woulde chalenge to him selfe the auctoritie of the Catholike Churche . And where as himselfe was not in the Churche , but contrariwise a rebell against the Churche , In epist , ad Iubainum de Haereticis baptizandis . tooke vpon him to affirme , that al other were Heretikes , and presumed tovpholde , the Churche was on his side . Irenaeus and Tertullian , who were before him , write , that Heretikes made so much adoo to perswade , De praescript . haeret . that the Churche was amonge them selues onely , that they feared not to call the right beleuinge and Catholike Churche , Hereticall and Schismaticall . S. Hilary declaringe how patiently he demeaned himselfe towardes the Arians his enemies , Contra Constantium . by whome he was bannisshed , writeth , that in fiue yeares space , whiles he liued in bannishment , he neuer spake nor wrote euill woorde against them , August . contra epist. Parmen . lib. 2. cap. 1. whiche falsely said them selues to be the Churche of Christe , and were the Synagoge of Antichrist . The Donatisles , against whome S. Augustine wrote muche , saide , that the Christianitie was quite loste and gone out of so many nations that be in the worlde , and remained onely in Aphrike , and that the Churche was onely there . Bernard . in cant . Sermo. 66. In S. Bernardes time also the Heretikes who would be called Apostolikes , as they of our time call themselues Gospellers , saide that they were the Churche .

But what meane all Heretikes ( maye we iudge ) by couetinge so muche to be seene that whiche they are not ? Apostolici . What meane Heretiques by chalenginge vnto them the name and estimation of the Churche . Forsooth they meane none other thinge , then their Father the Deuill meaneth , when he goeth about to begile man . For then what dothe he ? vseth he not this policie , to chaunge his owggly hewe , and put himselfe in goodly shape of an Angell of light ? For he is not vnwittinge , that if he shewed himselfe in his owne forme , suche as he is , that euery one woulde flie from him , and none lightly woulde be deceiued by him . Heretikes doo the like . Although they hate the Churche neuer so deadly , yet to haue the more oportunitie to hurte it , 2. Cor. 11. pretende themselues to be of the Churche . The estimation and auctoritie of the Church . Lucae . 10. Matth. 18. 1. Tim. 3. Ephes. 1. Oseae . 2. Psalm. 131. Gene. ● . For they be not ignorant , howe greate the auctoritie of the Churche is . Of whose gouernours Christe saied , he that heareth you , heareth me : and he that despiseth you , despiseth me . And againe , Tell the Churche . They consider in what credite the Churche is with all Christen people : howe they staye themselues by it , as beinge the pillour and grounde of the truthe : howe they Loue her , euen as their common Mother , howe they honour it , as the Body and fulnes of Christe , as the spouse of Christe through Faithe , accordinge to that is written , I will despouse thee to me in faithe : As the true Syon , whiche our Lorde hath chosen to be his habitation , and his restinge place for euer : As the safe Arke to keepe vs from drowninge in the dangerous Seas of this worlde ; out of whiche nolesse then once out of the Arke of Noe , is nosaluation . Againe they know the Churche must needes be greatly esteemed amonge all the godly , for the singular promiser Christe hath made to it , that he would be with it all daies to the ende of the worlde : That he would pray to his father for the holy Ghost to be giuen to it , the spirite of truthe to remaine withit for euer . But as Heretikes impugne the lawe by the woordes of the lawe , In comment . in epist , ad Tir. cap. 3. 〈◊〉 S. Ambrose saithe so to ouer throwe the Churche , they presume to take vnto them the name of the Churche . But what doo 〈◊〉 when they are vrged and wroonge , when by force of argumentes they are straighted , and as it were driuen to the walle ? when it is plainely proued to their face , whiche is sone done that they be not in , nor of the Churche , specially beinge of Heresie openly denounced , The wonte of the Gospellers being excommunicate out of the Church . and by iust Excommunication cutte of from the Churche ? In this case the practise of the Gospellers is , vtterly to sette the Churche , as taught , and with a hote raging spirite to defie it , and to saye , that themselues be the Catholike Churche , and that the Catholikes be the Papisticall Churche , the Churche of Antichrist , the where of 〈◊〉 a deune of Theeues , and I can not tell what .

The Answeare by the Bishop of Sarisburie .

TO answeare M. Hardinge to euery parcel of his Booke , beinge so longe , it would be too tedious . Wherefore leauinge many his impertinent speaches , & other vnnecessarie and waste woordes , whiche sundrie his frendes thinke , he might better haue spared , I wil touche onely so mutche thereof , as shal beare somme shewe of substance , & may any way seeme woorthy to be answeared .

Firste touchynge the Churche of God , we beleue , and confesse al that M. Hardinge hath here saide , 1. Timot. 3. Ephes. 1. or otherwise can be saide . It is the Piller of the Truthe , the Body , the Fulnesse , and Spouse of Christe . Al these woordes are vndoubtedly true and certaine . And therefore , M. Hardinge , you are the more blamewoorthy , that of the House of God , beyng so glorious , haue made a caue of Théeues : & haue turned the beutie of Sion into the confusion of Babylon .

True it is , that Heretiques haue euermore apparelled them selues with the name of the Churche : as Antichriste also shal procure him selfe credite vnder the name of Christe . Thus did your Fathers , M. Harding , longe agoe . They saide then , euen as you say now , Iohan. 8. Hierem. 7. Hierem. 18. We are the Children of Abraham : we are the Euheretours of Goddes promises : we haue the Temple of God , the Temple of God . The Lawe shal neuer passe from the Prieste , nor counsel from the wise , nor the woorde from the prophete . Thus coutinuinge wilfully in the open breache of Goddes commaundement , neuerthelesse they chearished them selues then , as you doo nowe , onely with the bare title of the Churche : in whose name what so euer credit ye can any wise winne , your meaninge is , skilfully to conueigh the same ouer wholy to the Churche of Rome : as if that Churche onely were the Churche of God , De Maior . & Obedi . vnam Sanctam . Dist. 22. Omnes . & without that there were no hope of Saluation : And therefore you defende , and holde for trueth , that your Churche hath authoritie aboue Goddes Woorde . And Pope Nicolas saithe , Who so denieth the Priuilege , and Supremacie of the See of Rome , hath renounced the Faithe , and is an Heretique . And thus , as Leo saithe , Leo Epist. 83. Ad Palaestinos . Ecclesiae nomine armamini , & contra Ecclesiam dimicatis : Ye arme your selues with the name of the Churche , and yet ye fight against the Churche . Likewise saithe S. Cyprian , Cypri . De Simplicitate praela . Diabolus excogitauit nouam fraudem , vt sub ipso nominis Christiani titulo fallat incautos : The Diuel hath diuised a new kinde of policie , vnder the very title of the name of Christe to deceiue the simple .

Nowe concerninge that hote raginge Sprite , wherewith M. Hardinge saithe , the Gospellers deste the Churche and set it at naught , verily I thinke it a harde matter for any Gospeller , be he neuer so hote , in suche kinde of eloquence to matche M. Hardinge . Neither yet maye he wel condemne al suche , as in the like cases haue bene hote , Esa● . 1. Matth. 3. Matthae . 23. Iohan. 8. & earnest . Esay the Prophete saithe , O ye Princes of Sodome , and ye people of Gomorrha : Iohn the Baptist saithe to the Scribes , and Phariseis , O ye Serpentes , ye generation of Vipers , and Adders : Christe saithe vnto them , Woe be vnto you , ye Scribes , and Phariseis , ye hypocrites : Ye are of your Father the Diuel . In these eramples wée sée , the Sprite of God can sometimes be hote and earnest against the deceiuers of the people , and the professed enimies of the Crosse of Christe . Neither did either Esay the Prophete , or Iohn the Baptiste , or Christe desie the Churche of God , and set it at naught , as M. Hardinge imagineth of vs : but rather by these seruent speaches vttered the vehement zele , and iuste griefe , they had conceiued against them , that vnder the name of the Churche abused Goddes people , and defaced the Churche .

For they are not al Heretiques , M. Hardinge , that this daie espie your grosse , and palpable errours , and mourne to God for reformation . S. Augustine saithe , Non debet Ouis pellem suam deponere , August . Lib. 2. De Sermon . Dom● . in monte . qu●d Lupi aliquando se ea contegant : It is no reason , the Sheepe should therefore leaue of his fliese , for that he seeth the Woulfe sometime in the same apparel . Likewise , it is no reason , that wée should therfore geue ouer the right , and enheritance , wée haue in the Churche of God , for that you by intrusion , and vniuste meanes haue intituled your selues vnto the same . Iohan. 5. It behooueth vs rather , to searche the Scriptures , as Christe hath aduised vs , & thereby to assure our selues of the Churche of God . For by this trial onely , and by none other , it maye be knowen . Ephe. 1. Therfore S. Paule calleth the Churche the Spouse of Christe , for that she ought in al thinges to geue eare to the voice of the Bridegrooms . Likewise he calleth the Churche the Piller of the Truthe , 1. Timo. 3. for that shée staieth her selfe onely by the Woorde of God : Without whiche Woorde the Churche . were it neuer so bewtiful . should be no Churche . Irenae . Lib. 3. Cap. 11. The Ancient Father Irenaeus saithe , Columna , & firmamentum Ecclesiae est Euangelium , & Spritus vitae : The Piller and buttresse of the Churche is the Gospel , August . De vnita . Eccle. Cap. 3. and the Sprite of life . S. Augustine saithe , Sunt certi Libri Dominici , quorum authoritari vtrique consentimus : Ibi quaeramus Ecclesiam : ibi discutiamus causam nostram : There be certaine Bookes of our Lorde , vnto the authoritie whereof eche parte agreethe . There let vs seeke for the Churche : thereby sette vs examine and trie our maters . And againe , August . in eodem Cap. Nolo humanis documentis , sed Diuinis oraculis sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari : I wil , ye shewe me the holy Churche , not by decrees of menne , but by the woorde of God . Chrysostom . In Opere Imperfecto , Homi. 49. Chrysostom . in eadem Homilia . Likewise saithe Chrysostome , Nullo modo cognoscitur , quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi , nisi tantummodo ' per Scripturas : It can no waye be knowen , what is the Churche , but onely by the Scriptures . And againe , Christus mandat , vt volentes firmitatem accipere Verae Fidei , ad nullam rem fugiant , nisi ad Scripturas . Alioqui , si ad alia respexerint , Scandalizabuntur , & peribunt , non intelligentes , quae sit vera Ecclesia . Et per hoc incident in Abominationem Desolationis , quae stat in Locis Sanctis Ecclesiae : Christe commaundeth , that who so wil haue the assurance of True Faithe , seeke to nothinge els , but vnto the Scriptures . Otherwise , if they looke to any thinge els , they shal be offended , and shal perishe , not vnderstanding , Daniel . 9. Matth. 24. whiche is the True Churche . And by meane here of they shal fal into the Abomination of Desolation , whiche standeth in the Holy Places of the Churche .

By these Ancient learned Fathers it is plaine , that the Churche of God is knowen by Godde● Woorde onely , & none otherwise . And therfore M. Hardinge , you so carefully flée the same , and condemne it for Heresie , and often burne it , leste thereby the deformities of youre Churche should be knowen . Iohan. 3. For the il dooer fleeth the light .

Nowe , where as it so wel liketh M. Hardinge to cal vs al Heretiques , and for his pleasures sake to liken vs to Apes , to Asses , and to the Diuel , notwithstanding we might safely returne the same whole , from whence it came , yet I thinke it not séemely , nor greatly to purpose to answeare al suche intemperate humours . Salomons aduise is good , Prouerb . 26. Answeare not folie with like folie . Notwithstandinge , the poore simple Asse , vnto whome wée are compared , was hable sometime to sée the Angel of God , Numer. 22. and to open his mouthe , and to speake , and to reproue the lewde attempte of Balaam the false Prophete . What so euer accoumpt it pleaseth M. Hardinge to make of vs , by the grace of God wée are that wée are . Yf wée be hable to beare Christe with his Crosse , it is sufficient .

But who they be , that haue of longe time ietted so terribly vnder the Lions skinne , and onely with a painted Visarde , or emptie name of the Churche , haue feared al the cattel of the fielde , it is néedelesse to speake it : the worlde now seeth it : it can no longer be dissembled . Euen he , that lately bare him selfe as the Lion of the tribe of Iuda , & called him selfe a a Augustinus Steuchus , de Primatu . Kinge of Kinges , and b b See the fifthe parte hereof , the 6. Cap. and. 15. Diuision . said , he had power ouer the Angels of God , and amased the hartes of the simple with the terrour of his Lions pelte , onely for that he sate in Peters Chaire is now reuefled and better knowen , and estéemed as he is woorthy : he may nowe iette vp and downe with more ease , and lesse terrour . And why so ? These poore Asses , whome M. Hardinge so muche disdeigneth , haue stripte of his counterfeite skinne , that made him so hardy , and haue caused him to appeare euen as he is .

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 1.

It hath bene an olde complainte , euen from the first time of the Patriarkes and Prophetes , and confirmed by the writinges and testimonies of euery age , that the Truthe wandereth here and there as a straunger in the worlde , Tertull. in Apologetico . & dothe readily finde enimies and sclaunderers amongst those , that knowe her not . Albeit perchaunce this may seeme vnto some a thinge harde to be beleeued , I meane to suche as haue scante wel and narowly taken heede thereunto , specially seing al mankinde of natures very motion without a teacher doth coueite the Truthe of their owne accorde : and seinge our Saueour Christe him self , when he was on earth , would be called the Truthe , as by a name moste fitte to expresse al his diuine power . Yet we , whiche haue bene exercised in the holy Scriptures , and whiche haue both reade & seene , what hath happened to al godly menne commonly at al times , what to the Prophetes , to the Apostles , to the Holy Martyres , and what to Christe him selfe : with what rebukes , reuilinges , and despites they were continually vexed , whiles they here liued , & that onely for the Truthes sake : Wee ( I saye ) doo see , that this is not onely no newe thinge , or harde to be beleued , but that it is a thinge already receiued , and commonly vsed from age to age . Nay truely , this might seeme muche rather a merueile , Iohan. 8. and beyonde al beliefe , if the Diuel , who is the Father of lies , & enimie to al Truthe , would now vpon a suddaine chaunge his nature , and hope , that Truthe might otherwise be suppressed , then by belieinge it : Or that he would beginn● to establish his owne kingdome by vsinge nowe any other practises , then the same , whiche he hath euer vsed from the beginninge . For since any mans remembrance , we can skante finde one time , either when Religion did first growe , or when it was setled , or when it did afreshe springe vp againe , wherein Truthe & Innocencie were not by al vnwoorthy meanes , & most despitefully intreated . Doubtlesse the Diuel wel seeth , that so longe as truthe is in good safetie , him selfe cannot be safe , nor yet maintaine his owne estate .

For , letting passe the auncient Patriarkes & Prophetes , who , as we haue said , had no parte of their life free from contumelies & sclaunders : We knowe , there were certaine in times paste , whiche saide and commonly Preached , Cornel. Tacit●● . that the olde auncient Iewes ( of whome we make no doubte but they were the woorshippers of the onely & true God ) did worship either a Sowe , or an Asse in Goddes steede : and that al the same Religion was nothinge els , but sacrilege , and a plaine contempt of al godlines . We know also , that the Sonne of God , our Saueour Iesus Christe , when he taught the Truth , was coumpted a Sorcerer & an Enchaunter , a Samaritane , Beelzebub , a deceiur of the People , a Drunkarde , & a Glutton . Againe , who woteth not , what woordes were spoken against S. Paule , the moste earnest and vehement Preacher , & maintainer of the Truthe ? Sometime , that he was a seditious and busie man , a raiser of tumultes , a causer of rebellion : sometime againe , that he was an Heretique : sometime , that he was mad : sometime , that onely vpon strife and stomake he was bothe a blasphemer of Gods lawe , and a despiser of the Fathers ordinances . Further who knoweth not , how S. Steuin , after he had throughly and sincerely embraced the truthe , and beganne frankly & stoutly to preache and set forth the same , as he ought to doo , was immediately called to answeare for his life , as one that had wickedly vttered disdainful and haynous woordes against the Lawe , against Moyses , against the Temple , and against God ? Or who is ignorant , that in times past there were some , whiche reproued the holy Scriptures of falsehed , sayinge , they conteined thinges bothe contrary , and quite one against an other : Marion , ex Tertul. and howe that the Apostles of Christe did seuerally disagree betwixt them selues , and that S. Paule did varie from them al ? Aelius , è Lactans . And not to make rehersal of al , for that were an endles labour , Euseb. Li. 5. C. 11. who knoweth not , after what sorte our Fathers were railed vpon in times paste , Tertul. in Apologe . whiche first began to acknowledge and professe the name of Christe : how they made priuate conspiracies , deuised secrete Counsels against the common wealth , and to that ende made early and priuie meetinges in the darke , killed yonge Babes , fedde them selues with mens fleashe , and like sauage and brute beastes , did drinke their Bloude ? In conclusion , how that after they had put out the candels , they committed Adulterie betwene them selues , & without regarde wrought incest one with an other : that Brethern laie with their Sisters , Sonnes with their Mothers , without any reuerence of nature or kinne , without shame , without difference : and that they were wicked men without al care of Religion , and without any opinion of God , being the very enimies of mankinde , vnwoorthy to be suffered in the worlde , and vnwoorthy of life ?

Al these thinges were spoken in those daies against the people of God , against Christe Iesus , against Paule , against Steuin , and against al them , whosoeuer they were , whiche at the firste beginninge imbraced the truthe of the Gospel , & were contented to be called by the name of Christians : whiche was then an hateful name amonge the common people . Tertull. in Apolo . Cap. 3. And although the thinges whiche they saide , were not true , yet the Diuel thought it should be sufficient for him , if at the least he coulde bringe it so to passe , as they might be beleued for true : and that the Christians might be brought into a common hatred of euery bodie , and haue their death and destruction sought of al sortes . Herevpon Kinges & Princes beinge ledde then by suche persuasions , killed al the Prophetes of God , lettinge none escape : Esay with a sawe , Ieremie with stones , Daniel with Lions , Amos with an iron barre , Paule with the swerde , and Christe vpon the Crosse : and condemned al Christians to imprisonmentes , to tormentes , to the pikes , to be throwne downe headlong from rockes and steepe places , Suetonius Trāquil . in Nerone . to be cast to wilde beastes , and to be burnt : and made great fiers of theyr quicke bodies , for the onely purpose to giue light by night , & for a very scorne and mockynge stocke : and did compte them no better , then the vilest filthe , the ofscouringes and laughinge games of the whole worlde . Thus ( as ye see ) haue the Authours and professours of the truthe euer bene entreated .

M. Hardinge .

Who would not thinke , these defenders were true men , that in the beginninge of their Apologie speake so muche of the truthe ? Yet who knoweth not , that oftentimes euil meaninge is hidde vnder good woordes ? Who hath not hearde , that filthy queanes in time and place vse the honest talke of chaste matrones ? The theefe commendeth iuste dealinges , and many times shewithe a stomake against false harlottes , 1. Corinth. 11. noman more . Amonge al none pretende truthe in wordes so muche as Heretiques . I feare me , saithe S. Paule , lest , as the Serpente beguiled Eue by his sutteltie , so your wittes be corrupted , and fallen away from that plainenes . Whiche is in Christe . The Apostle feared because of the craftie Iewes : who the rather to deceiue , mingled scriptures with their owne traditions , and truthe with fals head . So bringeth the Heretique his hearer to errour in faithe by coloure and pretence of truthe .

They are muche like to the Manicheis , De Vtilita . Credendi ad Honoratum . Lib. 1. Ca. 1. Confess . li. 5. ca. 6. Matth. 7. who promised their hearers to discusse , and set forthe the truthe moste euidently vnto them , and to deliuer them from all maner of errours . By whiche faire promises S. Augustine was allured to be a diligent scholar of theirs for the space of nine yeres .

Christe gaue vs a lesson howe to discerne them . By their fruites ye shall knowe them , saithe he . And nowe to you Sirs . Euen in the beginninge , and as I may saie , in the foreheade of your Apologie , whiles I examine it diligently , I finde two foule faultes : the one in your Rhetorike , the other in your Logike . By whiche two faultes bothe the vns kil of your secretarie , and the weakenes of your mater maie be espied , as the Asse , I spake of right nowe , was by his two eares staringe out vnder the Lions skinne . Your diuinitie is nothinge els in grosse , but a lumpe of lies , errours and Heresies .

First touching your Rhetorike , emongst many faultie proemes , one of the woorst is that , which is suche , as the aduersary may vse : whiche by them is called Exordium commune , that is to wite , suche a beginninge , as will serue the defendant , no lesse then the Plaintife , or contrariwise . Of that sorte is the beginninge of your Apologie . For declaringe at large , that truthe hath euer beene persecuted , what saithe it therein ( the faultes amended ) that we may not saie the same ? That ship-maister is accoumpted very bad , who at the settinge out of the hauen driueth the Ship on the rockes .

Alleaginge Tertullian to healpe your cause , ye iniurie the Doctor by alteringe his wordes . Ye were not wise , by falsifiyng the first sentence , so muche to impaire your credite . Tertullian saith not , that truthe readily findeth enimies and sclaunderers amongst those , that knowe her not : but that truthe sone findeth enimies inter extraneos , amongst aliantes and strangers . Now the Christian Catholikes , whom ye call Papistes , be not in respecte of the truthe aliantes , and strangers . For your selues in sundry places of your Booke reproue them for resistinge the truthe whiche they knowe .

You haue geuen Tertullian a newe liuerie with your owne badge , and haue made exchaunge of Extraneos with Ignotos . Tertullian meante by aliantes no other then Infidels , and Paynimes : emonge whom Christen people then liued , and were daily persecuted . But after the Gospel had benne sounded abrode by the Apostles , and their successours through al the earth , after that the Emperours them selues , and all the people euery where had receiued the faithe , then was the truthe no more a wanderer , strangers or Pilgrime in the earthe .

The Bishop of Sarisburie .

Touchinge this comparison of whoores , and Théeues , and other like M. Hardinges vngentle spéeches , as I haue before protested , I wil saye nothinge . He is very doumbe , and can speake but litle , that cannot speake it .

It is true , M. Hardinge , that you saie : Most Lyers oftentimes pretende most Truthe : as , if there were none other example , maye soone appeare by the whole tenour and substance of your Bookes . The Diuel him selfe , the better to founde his Lyes , beareth him selfe oftentimes as the Angel of Truthe .

But the example , 2. Corinth . 11 that ye bringe of the Iewes , who , as you saie , the rather to deceiue , mingled Scripture with their owne Traditions , and Truthe with Falsehed , maketh moste plainely against your selfe . For you knowe , that this is the general compiainte of al the Godly this daye throughout the whole Churche of God , Matth. 15. Hierem. 2. that you haue mingled your Leade with the Lordes Goulde , and haue filled the Lordes Haruest ful of your Darnel : that you haue broken Goddes manifest commaundementes , to vpholde , & mainteine your owne Traditions : That you haue damned vp the Springes of the Water of Life , Hierem. 23. & haue broken vp puddles of your owne , 2. Corinth. 11. suche as be hable to holde no water : That for your dreames sake you haue caused the people to forgeat the name of God , & haue ledde them from that simplicitie , that is in Christ Iesu . This is the mingling of Traditions with the Scriptures of God . I marueile , ye coulde so fréely vtter so muche , and so directly against your selfe .

As for the example of the Manicheis , it was vtterly impertinent , and from the purpose . Yet ( Good Reader ) that thou maiste vnderstande , what manner of Heretiques theise Manicheis were , and what errours they defended , first thy forebade lawful mariage , and allowed fornication , as M. Hardinges a a See what is answeared in the fourth pare herof , Ca. 1. Di. 1. Catholiques doo nowe . So saith S. Augustine of them , b b In quaest. in Nouum Testam . Quae. 72. Nuptiarum aditus intercludunt : & promiscu● conuenire hortantur . c c Leo Serm. 4. de Quadragesima . Secondly they receiued , & ministred the Holy Mysteries vnder one kinde , contrary to the general order of the Catholique Churche . And so doeth M. Harding now . d d Aug. Epist. 19. Thirdly they yelded more credite to their owne diuises , then to Goddes Holy woorde . e e August . con. Faustum . Lib. 32. Cap. 19. And where as the Scriptures were plaine against them , they saide , euen as f f M. Hardinge Fol. 220. b. M. Hardinge saithe , the Scriptures were falsified , and ful of errours . g g Augu. de Morib . Mantchae . Lib. 2. Cap. 15. Peregrinas & exquisitas f●uges multis ferculis variatas . Fourthly they abstained from fleashe : and yet in their faste , they had & vsed al manner delicate and strange fruites , with sundrie sortes of Spices in greate abundance : h h Aug. De Morib . Manichae . Lib. 2. Cap. 13. They absteined from Wine , & yet vsed other liquours more deintie , and pretious , then any Wine , and thereof dranke while their bellies would holde . S. Augustines woordes thereof be these , Distenti , et crepantes , I leaue the rest . Nowe iudge thou , gentle Reader , whether partie séemeth best to resemble the Manichets .

But whereas he thus vpbraideth vs , By their fruites ye shal knowe them . Verily whiles the Bishop of Rome euen in the Cittie of Rome mainteineth his houses of Ribaudrie and open Stewes , and M. Hardinge is ready , & hable by his eloquence and Diuinitie to defende the same , they haue no iuste cause , greatly to boaste them selues of their fruites . Howe be it , it maye be thought , Christ gaue vs this lesson , not thereby to trie the true Doctrine from the false , but a true professour from an Hypocrite . Otherwise our liues muste be tried by the Gospel , not the Gospel by our liues .

Nowe let vs examine that Horrible Heresie , that M. Hardinge hathe espied in the Rules of Rhetorique , by whiche , saithe he , the Secretaries vnskil is betraied , euen in the foreheade of our Booke . This entrie , saithe M. Hardinge , touchinge the complainte of Truthe , is so indifferent and common to bothe the parties , that either maie vse it , as wel as other . Whiche kinde of beginninge , saithe he , is called Exordium commune , and by the learned in Rhetorique is misliked as faultie . First of al , M. Hardinge , this séemeth to me a strange kinde of beginninge , in so déepe a disputation of Diuinitie , to make your first quarrel vnto Rhetorique . Bilike for lacke of better Entrie , ye thought it good to rushe in as you might . In déede either of vs maie séeme to stande in defence of Truthe . I denie it not . For as we haue the substance , and Truthe it selfe , so are you contente to claime the name . And so far forthe Truthe is common to vs bothe . Origen . contra Celsum , Li. 3. & Lib. 4. So the wicked Heathens Celsus , & Antiphon , notwithstandinge they published their Bookes against the Truthe , yet they entituled the same 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Booke of Truthe . S. Hierome saithe , Mendacium semper imitatur Veritatem . Falshed euermore beareth a shewe of Truthe . In this sorte Truthe is common to either partie . Origen in Matthae . Tract. 27. Origen saithe , Veritas Christus : simulata Veritas Antichristus . Christ is the Truth it selfe : Antichrist is the Truth countrefeite . Al this notwithstandinge , Christ refused not to vse the same kinde of entrie , that M. Hardinge so muche mistiketh : Iohan. 8. Roman. 1. but saide vnto the Phariseis , Ye seeke to minder me , a man that haue tolde you the Truthe . And S. Paule to the Romaines saithe , They haue turned the Truthe of God into falshed . The like might I saie of Tertullian , Cyprian , and other Fathers . Yet , I trowe , M. Hardinge wil not therfore reproue either Christ , or Paule , or Tertullian , or Cyprian : nor saie , they vsed suche a Beginninge , as their aduersaries might haue vsed as wel as they , and had forgotten their Rules of Rhetorique .

Lothe I am so longe to stande in so light a mater . But I marueile mutche , that M. Harding being so great an Artificer in so smal cases , had no better eie to his owne Entrie . For if in writing the Defence of Truthe , it be a faulte in Rhetorique to beginne with the il intreatinge , & complainte of Truthe , what then may we thinke it to be in the Defence of manifest & knowen errour , to beginne , as M. Hardinge dooth , with Whoores , with Théeues , with Apes , with Asses , with Children of the Diuel , and with many other like vnséemely scoffes , and scornes ? What Rhetorique , what Eloquence , what Arte , what Skil is this ? What Oratour euer vsed it ? what Rhetorician , what Sophiste , Gréeke , or Latine euer taught it ? Verily this was sometime accoumpted an old rule in Rhetorique , which it séemeth M. Hardinge had quite forgotten : Cic. De Orator . Lib. 2. Scurrilis Oratori dicacitas magnoperé fugienda est . This Secretaries Beginninge , by M. Hardinges owne confession is sutche , as either partie indifferently might wel haue vsed . But M. Hardinges Beginninge is sutche , as neither partie with any modestie might haue vsed .

M. Hardinge also might haue remembred , that the skilful in Rhetorique , as they mislike Exordium Commune , Cicer. Lib. 1. De Inuentione : Argumentum Commune vitiosum est . so they also mislike Commune Argumentum , that is , a Reason or Proufe so Common , that it may indifferently serue bothe parties . Whiche kinde of proufes if M. Hardinge woulde haue wéeded out of his Bookes , he should haue lefte very litle to trouble the Printer .

Where he saithe in grosse , that our Apologie is nothing els , but a lumpe of Lyes : the Truthe therof , I trust , shal appeare by this Treatie . In the meane season , good Christian Reader , it may please thée to consider , that M. Hardinges mouth is no iuste measure in this behalfe . For some men thinke , it wil oftentimes vtter vntruthe without measure . But he saithe , we haue falsified Tertullians meaninge , placinge this woorde Ignotos , in stéede of Extraneos , and so at our pleasure makinge exchange of woordes , and geuinge the olde Father a newe Liuerie , and thereby empairinge our whole credite . A greate outcrie in so smal a matter . This greate exchange of woordes is nothinge so haynous as it is pretended . For bothe Ignotus is Extraneus , and Extraneus also in Tertullians meaninge is Ignotus . And M. Hardinge wel knoweth , that Tertullian speaketh namely , and onely of suche Aliens and Strangers , as knewe not the Truthe of God . Whether of these two woordes it shal like him to leaue vs , the sense is al one : it forceth nothing . If he wil néedes refuse this woorde , Ignotus , so that he receiue the other woorde , Extraneus , and graunte , that he and his felowes be Strangers to Goddes Truthe , it shal be sufficiente .

Howe be it he addeth farther , that they of his side are nowe no Strangers , but knowe God , as his deare frendes , and kinsfolke . Euen so saide the Phariseis of them selues , Iohan. 9. Nunquid & nos Coeci sumus ? What be we blinde too ? But Christe answeared them , Yf ye were blinde , then had ye no sinne . Now ye say , that ye see : Therefor your sinne remaineth stil . Iohan. 9. Matthae . 8. And againe , I am come to Iudgemente into the worlde , that they that see , maie be made blinde . And againe , The Children of the kingdome shal be throwen foorthe into vtter darknesse .

Yet further M. Hardinge saithe , After that the Gospel had benne sounded abroade by the Apostles , and theire Successours , then was the Truthe nomore a Stranger , or a Pilgrime in Earth . Whereby he woulde closely conclude , that his Churche of Rome can neuer erre . But this is too vaine a Paradise . Daniel . 8. Chrysost. in opere Imperfecto , Homi . 49. August . De C●uita . Dei , Li. 18. Cap. 51. De Ciuit. Li. 19. Cap. 27. For Daniel speakinge of the later daies saithe , Veritus prosternetur in ●erra , The Truthe shal be ouerthrowen in the Earthe . Chrysostome saithe , Abornihatio Desolationis stabit in Sanctis Locis Ecclesiae , The Abomination of desolation shal stande in the Holy places of the Churche . S. Augustine saithe , Vsque ad huius s●eculi finem , inter persecutiones mundi , & consolationes Dei peregtinando procurrit Ecclesia : Vntil the worldes ende , the Churche goeth foreward , as it were in a Pilgrimage , bytweene the persecutions of the worlde , and the comfortes of God . And againe , Tota Ciuitas Dei peregrinatur in terris : The whole Cittie of God ( which is the Churche ) is a Stranger , and a Pilgrime in the Earthe . Verily as longe as Satan the Prince of darkenesse is Prince of this world , so longe the Truthe of God passeth in this world as a Stranger : and beinge emonge Strangers , as Tertullian saithe , easily findeth enimies , & is it intreated . Tertullian in Apologetico . He saithe further , Caeterum vnum hoc gestit , ne ignorata damnetur : This onely thinge Truthe desireth , that noman condemne her , before he knowe her .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 1.

Wherfore we ought to beare it the more quietly , whiche haue taken vpon vs to professe the Gospel of Christe , if we for the same cause be handled after the same sorte : and if we , as our Forefathers were longe agoe , be likewise at this daye tormented and baited with raylinges , with spiteful dealinges , and with lies : and that for no desert of our owne , but onely bicause we teache & acknowledge the Truthe .

M. Hardinge .

O blessed folowers of the Patriarkes , Prophetes , Apostles , Martires , and Christe him selfe , that suffer so much persecution in your innocencie ; hauinge deserued nothinge at all , and onely bicause ye acknowledge , and teache the Truthe . But Sirs , by your leaue , how foloweth this ( Wherfore ) of your former common place so largely treated ? This is your fowle faulte , whiche you make in your Logike . Howe proue ye this argument : The Truthe is persecuted , and the professours of the Truthe haue euer bene euill treated : wherefore wee ought to beare it quietly beinge likewise handled for the same cause &c. If you make this argument , whiche ye seeme priuely to make , leauinge out the Minor , The professours of the Truthe be persecuted for the Truthes sake : wee be professours of the Truthe : Therefore we suffer persecution for the Truthes sake : Yf ye saye thus , we embarre you from your Conclusion by deniynge your Minor , whiche ye can neuer proue .

And if ye reason thus , whiche waye also ye seeme to vse : The professours of the Truthe suffer persecution : Wee suffer persecution : Ergo , wee are professours of the Truthe : We graunt your Minor is true : but your argument is naught . So might all Heretikes saye , and by that argument proue them selues right beleuers . Wherefore vntil ye proue , that ye succede the Patriarkes , Prophetes , Apostles , Martyrs , and Christe himselfe in professinge the Truthe , boast not , as ye doo , of your Forefathers . For not they whome ye name in your Proeme , but Hus , Wiklese , Peter Bruse , Berengarius , Waldenses , Albingenses , Donatistes , Aë●ians , Manichees , and suche the like Heretikes , iustly condemned of the Churche , were your Forefathers .

The B. of Sarisburie .

M. Hardinge pretendeth Logique , and endeth in Sophistrie . The argument , wée make , wherewith he playeth so pleasantly , is founded vpon these woordes of Christe : Matth. 10. Iohan. 15. The Scholare is not aboue his Maister , nor the Seruant aboue his Lorde : If they haue persecuted me , they wil persecute you . Al these thinges shal they doo vnto you for my names sake , bicause they knowe neither my Father , nor me . The Minor is this , wée succede the Apostles , and Martyrs , and are the professours of the Truthe . Whiche Minor , by M. Hardinges iudgement , we can neuer proue . But Goddes holy name be blessed for euer : The greatest parte , of Christendome this daye seeth , this Minor is true , and that bothe we are the professours of Goddes knowen Truthe , and you the professours of manifest salsehed . Touchinge the Donatistes , and Manichees , and al other like condemned Heretiques , and Heresies , we vtterly abhorre them , euen as the gates of Hel. As for Iohn Wicklese , Iohn Husse , Valdo , and the reste , for ought wée knowe , & , I beleue , settinge malice aside , for ought you know , they were godly menne . Alphonsus De Haeresibus . Theire greatest Heresie was this , that they complained of the dissolute , and vitious liues of the Cleregie , of woorshippinge of Images , offeined Miracles , of the tyrannical pride of the Pope , of Monkes , Freeres , Partans , Pilgrimages , Bartholomae . Abramus in Concil. Ferrarien . and Purgatorie , and other like deceiuinge , and mockinge of the people , and that they wisshed a reformation of the Churche . Wée succede not them , nor beare theire names . Wée succede him , whose woorde wée professe : whose woorde , M. Hardinge , they of your side haue so often condemned , and vnder a colour of false Translation haue burnte for Heresie .

Hereof we fourme our argument in this sorte : Christe the Sonne of God was persecuted , & carried as a Lauuye vnto the Slauterhouse for speakyng the Truthe : Therefore it behooueth vs for the same cause sufferinge the like , to take it with patieuce . So saithe S. Peter , 1. Peter . 2. Christe died for vs , leauing vs an example , that we should folowe his steppes . If wee suffer patiently for dooinge wel , this thinge is thankes woorthy before God . So the holy Father and Martyr Ignatius comforted him selfe , when he was in the middes of his tormentes : Euseb. Lib. 3. Cap. 36. Tertull. De Fuga in persecutione . Matth. 5. iam incipio esse Discipulus Christi Now beginne I to be Christes . Disciple . So Tertullian , Quid debeo , nisi sanguinem , quem pro me fudit Filius Dei ? What thinge owe I els , but the Bloude , whiche the Sonne of God hath shedde for me ? The like comforte in like cases Christe geueth to his Disciples , Reioice ye , ( saithe he ) and he gladde , for your rewarde is greate in Heauen . For thus haue they persecuted the Prophetes , that were before you .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 2.

They crie out vpon vs at this present euerie where , that we are al Heretiques , and haue forsaken the Faith , & haue with newe persuasions , & wicked learninge vtterly dissolued the concorde of the Church .

M. Hardinge .

Yf ye haue forsaken the Faithe , Faithe in Britaine . ye were Baptized in , if ye be gonne from the faithe , whiche S. Eleutherius Pope and Martyr the first Apostle of Britayne preached in this lande , Vntruthe . by Damianus and Fugatius within little more then one hundred yeres after Christes death , Damianus and Fugatius first Apostles of the Britons . Augustinus and Melitus of the Englishe . if ye refuse the Faithe which Gregorie the Greate that holy Pope , caused to be Preached to our Auncestours the Englishe nation by Augustinus , Melitus , and other holy Priestes , and haue thereby dissolued the vnitie of the Catholike Churche , and leaue not to maineteine the doctrine , whereby the same vnitie is dissolued : all this presupposed . Wee see not but that this crie made vpon you is true : For then are ye Heretikes in deede .

The B. of Sarisburie .

As wel this reporte of Eleutherius , as also the other noted in the margin of Augustine , that the one was the first Apostle of the Britannes , the other of the Englishe , are both vntrue . For it is certaine , that the Churche of Britannie , nowe called England , receiued not first the faithe from Rome . Lucius the Kinge of this Countrie had receiued the Gospel of Christ , and was Baptized welneare one hundred and fiftie yeres before the Emperoure Constantine : and the same Constantine the first Christened Emperoure was borne in this Ilande , And notwithstanding Eleutherius the Bishop of Rome , at the Kinges special request , sent hither Fugatius , and Damianus , to enforme the Bishopes and Cleregie , and to bringe thinges to better order , Gildas . Polydor●● . Theodoret. De Curandis Graecorum affectibus . Niceph. li. 2. c. 4. Galfrid . Lib. 8. Cap. 4. yet vndoubtedly the Churche & Faithe of Christ had benne planted here a longe while before they came , eyther by Iosephe of Arimathaea : either ( as Theodoretus writeth ) by S. Paule the Apostle passinge this waye into Spaine : or ( as Nicephorus saithe ) by Simon Zel●tes : or by the Gréekes : or by some others .

As for our Augustine of Englande , for it was not S. Augustine the learned Doctour , neither was he so godly a man , as M. Hardinge maketh him : for as Galfridus writeth of him , he was cruel , disoaineful , prowde , and arrogant , and no way méete to be called an Apostle . Neither was he the first planter of the Faithe in Englande . For the Faithe was planted here many hundred yeres before his comminge . An. Do. 210. Tertullian saithe of his time , Tertull. contra Iudaeos . Britannorum inaccessa Romanis loca subduntur Christo : The countries of Britannie , whiche the Romaines coulde neuer atteine vnto , Anno. 212. are now subiecte to Christe . Origen saithe of his time , Origen . in Ezechiel . Homi. 4. Athanas . Apologia Secunda . Terra Britanniae consensit in Religionem Christi : The Lande of Britannie hath agreed to Christes Religion . Athanasius of his time saithe , Anno. 334. Episcopi Aphricae vniuersae , Siciliae , Sardiniae , Hispaniarum , Galliarum , Britanniarum sese ad Concilium contulerunt : The Bishoppes of al Aphrica , Sicilia , Sardinia , Spaine , Fraunce , and Britannie came thither to the Councel , ( holden at Sardica . ) Anno 330. Constantinus the Emperour in his time maketh mention of the Christian Churches in Britannie . Theodoret. Hist. Eccl. Li. 1. Ca. 10. Hilarius De Synodis . Chrysost. in Homilia , Quòd Christus sit Deus Theodoret. Hist. Eccl. Li. 4. Ca. 3. S. Hilarie in his time intituled his letter in this wise : Anno 360. Clericis Tololanis , & Prouinciarum Britannicarum Episcopis : To the Cleregie of Tolouse , Anno 400. and to the Bishoppes of Britannie . Chrysostome of his time saithe , Et Iusulae Britannicae extra hoc mare sitae , & in ipso Oceano positae senserunt virtutem Verbi Dei : The Ilandes of Britannie beinge in the very Ocean , far out of this our Sea , haue felt the power of Goddes Woorde . Anno 367. Theodoretus of the time of the Emperour Iouinian saithe thus , Huic Fidei consenserunt omnes Ecclesiae , quaeque in Hispania sunt , quaeque in Britannia : To this Faith haue agreed al the Churches , bothe of Spaine , and of Britannie . These recordes may séeme sufficient , if it please M. Hardinge to receiue them . And al , and euery of these liued sundrie hundred yéeres before the arriual of Melitus , and Augustine .

Yf any man shal happen to replie , The Faithe was then vtterly rooted out by the inuasion of the Englishe men beinge Heathens , Art. 3. Diuis . 24. Beda , li. 1. ca. 26. that mater is already answeared in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . Certainely Beda saithe , The Quéene of Englande was then Christened , Beda . li. 2. Cap. 2. and that there were then in this Realme seuen Bishoppes , and one Archebishop , with other moe greate learned Christian menne .

As touchinge this Augustine , wée are not bounde to al his dooinges . Although M. Hardinge allowe him Apostolike authoritie , yet al his heastes were not Gospel . The Churche in his time was growen to muche corruption , as it may many waies appeare by sundrie places of S. Gregorie . Beda . li. 2. Ca. 26. Verily Beda saithe , The Bishoppes , and learned Christians of this Countrie vtterly refused to receiue this newe Apostle with his Religion . And yet were they right Catholique , and godly menne . And Galfridus saithe , Galfridus . lib. 8. Cap. 4. Erant septem Episcopatus , & Archiepiscopatus Religiosiscionis Praesulibus muniti , & Abbatiae complures , in quib . grex Domini rectum ordinem tenebat : There were then in Englande seuen Bishoprikes , and one Archebishoprike possessed with very godly Prelates , and many Abbies , in whiche the Lordes flocke helde the right Religion .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 3.

That wee renewe , and , as it were , fetche againe from Hel the olde and many a daie condemned Heresies : that wee sowe abroade newe sectes , and suche broyles as neuer earst were hearde of : also that we are already diuided into contrarie partes and opinions , and could yet by no meanes agree wel amonge out selues .

M. Hardinge .

Sith that ye raise vp againe the heresie of Aerius in deniynge praier for the dead , who was for the same accompted an Heretike aboue a leuen hundred yeres past : sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Manichaeus that liued before him , That these Defenders be renewers of olde Heresies in taking awaire free will● sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Vigilantius , in refusinge to praie to Sainctes , and to honour their holy Reliques , and to keepe lightes in Churches to the honour of God , and many other Heresies beside of olde time condenmed : sith that ye raise vp the Heresie of Berengarius in deniyng the presence of Christes very Body in the blessed Sacrament of the Aultar : and sith that ye adde to those mo Heresies of your owne , as the appointing of the supreme Pastorship or regiment of the Churche in all thinges and causes spiritual to a laye Magistrate , the deniynge of the external Sacrifice of the Churche , whiche wee cal the Masse , the maintenance of the breache of Vowes of Pouertie , Chastitie , and Obedience : Againe sithe that your Diuision into sundrie sectes can neither be dissembled nor defended , whereof we shal speake hereafter more largely : al these thinges beside sundrie other of like enormitic beinge true , as they be most true , this other crie made vpon you is true .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This heape is greate in shewe , and light in substance . Touching Berengarius , gentle Reader , Arti. 5. Diuis. 6. for shortnesse sake I must referre thée to my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . Aerius the Arian Heretique , the Breache of Vowes , the Dissension of Iudgementes in Religion , shal be answeared ( God willinge ) hereafter , eche mater seuerally in his place .

Wee flatter not our Prince with any newe imagined extraordinarie power , but onely geue him that Prerogatiue & Chieftie , that euermore hath benne dewe vnto him by the ordinance , Esai . 49. and Woorde of God : that is to say , to be the Nurce of Goddes Religion : to make Lawes for the Churche : to heare and take vp cases , and questions of the Faithe , if he be hable : or otherwise to commit them ouer by his authoritie vnto the learned : to commaunde the Bishoppes , and Priestes to doo their dewties , and to punishe sutche as be offenders . August . contra Cresc . li. 3. ca. 71. Thus the godly Emperoure Constantinus sate in Iudgement in a cause Ecclesiastical , bitwéene Caecilianus , and Donatus à Casis Nigris , and in the ende him selfe pronounced sentence . Greater authoritie then Constantinus the Emperoure had , and vsed , our Princes require none . This , I truste , hitherto is no greate Heresie .

S. Hierome reproued Vigilantius , for that he founde faulte with the Vigils or night wakes , that then were vsed , with Praieing to Sainctes , with Woorshippinge of Reliques , with Lightes , and other suche like weighty maters . Touchinge which whole controuersie , Erasm . in praefatio . in Epistolam Hieronymi contra Vigilan . Erasmus geueth this iudgement : in hunc ita conuitijs debacchatur Hieronymus , vt plusculum in co modestiae cogar desiderare . Vtinam argumentis tantùm egisset , et à conuitijs temperasset : Against this Vigilantius S. Hierome so raileth , that I wante in him some peece of sobrietie . I woulde rather , he had dealte with argumentes , and had spared his railinge .

Of praier to Sainctes , & Lightes , we shal speake hereafter . Night wakes afterward were condemned , as I remembre , in the Councel of Carthage , & so Sentence geuen by the Churche with this greate Heretique Vigilantius against S. Hierome . Verily the Fathers in a former Councel holden at Eliberis in Spaine decréed thus : Concil. Eliberi . Cap. 35. Placuit prohiberi ne foeminae in coemiterio peruigilent : quia saepé sub obtentu orationis scelera latenter committunt . It liketh vs that women be forbidden to watche at the places of burial : For often vnder pretense of prayer , priuily they commit wickednesse . To be shorte , if Vigilantius were an Heretique for reprouinge of Night Watches , why hath the Churche of Rome so longe sithence condemned & abolished the same watches , agreeably to Vigilantius , and contrarie to the Iudgement of S Hierome ?

Reliques were subiecte to muche villanie , and are welneare worne out of them selfe .

The Manicheis emonge other their fantastical errours were wonte to say , the the body of Man was made , August De continent . Ca. 9. August . contra duas Epist. pelagian Li. 2. ca. 2. August ad Quod vult deum . not by God , but by the Angels of the Diuel , whiche they called Gentem tenebratum : and that in Man there be two soules of contrarie natures : the one of the substance of God : the other of the substance of the Diuel : and that either soule contineweth stil as it is , and cannot alter : That is to say , that the good soule can neuer be il : and that the il soule can neuer be good . And in this sense they saide , that Man hath no Frée wil.

Al these , and other like errours wée abhorre and Detest , as frantique furies . Wée saie , that the Soule of Man is not the substance , but the Creature of God : an that it maie be changed from good to il : from il to good : that Dauid maie fal : that Paule maie rise : that God geueth vs a newe hart , and a newe Spirite within our breastes .

But as touchinge the fréedome of wil , and power of our selues , we saie with S. Augustine , August Deverb . Apostoli , Sermo 11. O malum Liberum Arbitrium sine Deo : O euil is Free Wil without God . Againe , Libero Arbitrio malè vtens homo . & se perdidit , & Arbitrium : Man misusinge his Free Wil , spilte both him selfe , and his wil. Againe , Quid tantùm de Naturae postibilitate praesumitur ? Augusti . in Enchiridio , ca. 30. Augusti . De Natura & Gratia Cap 53. Vulnerata , saucia , vexata , perdita est . Vera confessione , non falsa defensione opus habet : What doo men so mutche presume of the possibilitie of Nature ? It is woounded , it is mangled , it is troubled , it is loste . It behoueth vs rather truely to confesse it , then folsly to defende it . Againe , Liberum Arbitrium captiuatum , non nisi ad peccatum valet . Free wil once made thralle , auaileth now nothinge but to sinne . Agayne , Quòd bené viuimus , Augusti ad Boni faci . Li. 3. ca. 8. Augusti . De verbis Aposto . Sermo. 10. quòd rectè intelligimus , Deo debemus . Nostrum nihil est , nisi peccatum , quod habemus : That wee liue wel , that wee vnderstande aright , wee haue it of God . Of our selues wee haue nothinge , but onely sinne , that is within vs .

The better to cleare this whole case , I thought it good to vse the moe woordes . Thus may wée learne to knowe our selues , and humbly to confesse our imperfection , and to geue the whole glorie vnto God .

Therefore to conclude , Augusti . De Bono perseueran . Cap. 13. S. Augustine saithe , Nos volumus : Sed Deus in nobis operatur velle . Nos operamur : Sed Deus in nobis operatur & operari pro bona sua voluntate . Hoc nobis expedit & credere , & dicere . Hoc est pium : hoc est verum : vt sit humilis , & submissa Confessio , Cap. 6. & detur totum Deo . Tutiores viuimus , si totum Deo damus : non autem nos illi ex parte , & nobis ex parte committimus . Wee wil : but it is God , that woorketh in vs to wil. Wee woorke : but it is God that woorketh in vs to woorke , accordinge to his good pleasure . This is behooueful for vs bothe to beleeue , and to Speake : This is a Godly , this is a True Doctrine , that our Confession maye be humble , and lowly , and that God maye haue the whole . Wee liue in more safetie , if wee geue al vnto God , rather then if wee commit our selues partely to our selues , and partely to him .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 4.

That wee be accursed Creatures , & like the Gyauntes doo warre against God him selfe , and liue cleane without any regarde or Woorshippinge of God .

M. Hardinge .

What ye bee , God knoweth , and your owne Conscience shoulde knowe . Our Lorde amende bothe you and vs . But to saye some what to that your giltie minde imagineth the Worlde to reporte of you , if they which take away and abhorre the external Sacrifice , wherein Christe accordinge to his owne institution , Lucae . 2● . 1. Cor. 11. is offered to his Father , make no warre against God : if they whiche make Christe a Minister of Shadowes , Signes , Tokens , and Figures : they , whiche feare not to breake their solemne Vowes made to God , and defende the same as wel done : they , whiche assure them selues of their Saluation , and therefore liue dissolutely without due care and feare of God : If ( I saye ) they be not cursed Creatures , and like Gyantes that warre against God , then are ye cleare of this charge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

To answeare Ifs with Ifs , and Woordes with Woordes , it were greate folie . Therefore leauinge the answeare of Vowes , & assurance of Saluation to theire seueral places , first wee denie not the Sacrifice of Christe . Christe onely vpon his Crosse is our whole and onely Sacrifice for sinne , & biside him wée haue none other . How be it , In the. 17. Arti. I haue spoken hereof more at large in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge .

Neither make wée Christe , as it liketh M. Hardinge to saye , a Minister of Signes & Figures . Iohan. 1. Wée knowe , that Christe is the Fulfillinge & Perfection of the Lawe , and that Grace , and Truthe are wrought by him . Yet neuerthelesse wée saye , that the Sacramentes of the Newe Testamente are Signes , and Figures . The olde Father Tertullian expoundeth Christes Woordes in this sorte , Hoc est Corpus meum , Tertull. contra Mar●ion Lib 4. Augustin . in Psalm . 3. Augustin . contra A●●mantum , Cap. 12. Hoc est , Figura Corporis mei : This is my Body , that is to saye , This is a Figure of my Body . S. Augustine saithe , Christus adhibuit Iudam ad conuiuium , in quo Corporis & Sanguinis sui Figuram Discipulis suis commendauit , & tradidit : Christe receiue Iudas vnto his Banket , whereat he deliuered to his Disciples the Figure of his Body , and Bloude . And againe , Non dubitauit Dominus dicere , Hoc est Corpus meum , cùm daret Signum Corporis sui : Christe doubted not to saye , This is my Body , whereas he gaue a Token of his Body .

I leaue other Holy Fathers of like Woordes and sense welneare innumerable . Yet were they neither Giantes , nor Rebelles against God , nor accursed Creatures . If they had neuer vsed these Woordes , nor called the Sacramente the Figure , or Token of Christes Body , then might M. Hardinge haue ●enne bolde to saye somewhat , and to leade awate his Reader with a Tragical exclamation of Signes , and Figures . How be it , he him selfe , as I haue shewed in my Former Answeare , in the exposition of these woordes of Christe , Arti●ul . 12. Diuision . 16. This is my Body , and other like Phrases incident vnto the same , to auoide one vsual and common Figure , is forc●d to shifte him selfe into thirtie other vnnecessarie & childishe Figures : as knowinge that not so mutche as his open Untruthes can wel stande without Figures .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 6.

That wee despise al good deedes : that wee vse no discipline of Vertue , Fastinge with Fleashe . no Lawes , no Customes : that wee esteeme neither righte , nor order , nor equitie , nor Iustice : that wee geue the brydel to al naughtinesse , and prouoke the people to al licentiousnesse and ●ust .

M. Hardinge .

Ye teache men to Faste for policie , Faste for Policie . Fol. 2. Pa. 2. not for Religion . And by your Statute of Wednesdaies faste , who so euer shal write or saye that forebearinge of Fleas he is a Seruice of God , otherwise then as other polytike lawes are , they shal be punished as spreaders of false Newes are and ought to be . When ye Preache onely Faithe not to remoue the merite of woorkes before Baptisme , Epist. ad Roma . Bridle geuen to lewdnes by this newe Gospell . as S. Paule meante it , but also after Baptisme : When ye take awaye the Sacrament of confession and Absolution , geue ye not the brydel to al naughtinesse ? Do not some of your Gospelling maides of London refuse to serue , except they maye haue libertie to heare a Sermon before noone , and a playe at after noone ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

I thought , M. Hardinge had knowen a difference bitwéene Fastinge , and Abstinence , or choise of meates . True Fastinge is a Religiouse woorke , ordeined to testifie our humilitie , & to make the Fleashe the more obedient vnto the Sprite , that wée maye be the quicker to Praier , & to al good Woorkes . But Abstinence from this or that meate with opinion of Holinesse , Superstitious it maye easily make a man , but Holy it can not . 1. Corinth . 14. Hebrae . 13. S. Paule saithe , Cibus nos non commendat Deo : it is not meate that maketh vs acceptable vnto God . Againe , It is good to confirme the harte with Grace , and not with meates : Wherein they that haue walked , haue founde no profite . The meate serueth for the Belly , 1. Corinth . 6. Roman . 14. Matth. 15. and the Belly for the meate : The Lorde wil destroye them bothe . And againe , The Kingedome of God is not Meate , and Drinke . Likewise Christe saithe , The thinge that entreth into the mouthe , defileth not the man .

Hereby it is easie to see , that Fastinge is one thinge , & Abstinence from Fleashe is an other . The Nazareis in the old Testamente absteined not from Fleashe , & yet they Fasted . 3. Regum . 17. Matthae . 3. Socrae . li. 5. ca. 22. Cassidor . Lib. 9. Cap. 38. Elias was sedde with Fleashe , Iohn the Baptiste eate the Fleash of Locustes : & yet they both Fasted . Socrates saithe , That many Christians in the Lente season did eate Fishe & Byrdes : many absteined vntil thrée of the clocke in the after noone , & then receiued al kindes of meate , either Fishe , or Fleashe , without difference . Likewise Epiphanius saithe , Some eate al kindes of Birdes , or Fowle , absteininge onely from the Fleashe of fower footed beastes , Epipha . De Haeres . Lib. 3. In Oratione de Fide Catholica : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And yet they kepte their Lente truely , & fasted as wel as any others . Wherfore Abstinence from any one certaine kinde of meate is not of it self a woorke of Religion to please God , but onely a mere positiue Policie a a Augustin . S. Augustine saithe , Non quaeto quo Vescaris , sed quo Delecteris : I demounde not , what thou Eatest , but wherein thou haste Pleasure b b Hieronym . in Ioelem . Cap. 1. And S. Hierome saithe of the Manicheis , Ieiunant illi quidem : Sed illorum leiunium est saturitate deterius . They Foste in deede : but theire Fastinge is woorse , then if they filled theire Bellies .

Of onely Faithe , and Confession , wée shal speake hereafter .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 7.

That wee labour and seeke to ouerthrowe the state of Monarchies and Kingdomes , and to bringe al thinges vnder the rule of the rashe inconstante People , and vnlearned multitude .

M. Hardinge .

Can Monarkes and Princes seeme to be mainteined by your sectes . who teache the people to rebel for pretensed Religion ? Allow ye the Monarchie of the Romaine Empire , Who so muche complaine in your Apologie , that the Pope made Charlemaigne Emperour of the Weste ? Hathe the Queene of Scotland cause to praise the procedinges of your Gospel , through occasion whereof she ruleth not her subiectes , but is rather ruled of her subiectes ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here is an other greate Vntruthe emonge the reste . For M. Hardinge right wel knoweth , that wée neuer armed the people , nor taught them to rebel for Religion against the Prince . If any thinge haue at any time happened otherwise , it was either some wilful rage , or some fatal furie : It was not our Counsel : it was not our Doctrine . Wée teache the people , as S. Paule doothe , to be subiecte to the higher powers , Roman . 13. Matth. 26. not onely for feare , but also for conscience . Wée teache them , that who so striketh with the Swerde by Priuate authoritie , shal perish with the Swerd . Yf the Prince happen to be wicked , or cruel , or burthenous , wée teache them to saye , with S. Ambrose , Arma nostra sunt Preces , & Lachrymae : Teares , and Praiers be our Weapons . Ambrosius . Notwithstandinge , what Rebellion hathe benne moued in Englande by some of your side , in the late Raignes of Kinge Henrie the eight , & Kinge Edward the sixte in defence of your Religion , ye maie wel remember .

The displacinge of the Emperour of Constantinople , and the placinge of Charlemaigne the Frenche Kinge , serueth M. Hardinge to smal purpose : onlesse it be to disclose the Popes conspiracie against the Emperour . Certainely , as any man maye sensibly see , it was the aduauncinge of the Pope , the strengtheninge of the Saracenes , and after of the Turkes , and the Diuision , and dissolution of the state of Christendome . Platina in Adriano . 2. Platyna saithe , Ab hoc tempore perijt & potestas Imperatorum , & virtus Pontificum : After this time the power of the Emperours , and the Holinesse of the Popes were bothe loste .

Touchinge the Quéene of Scotland , I wil saye nothinge : The Kingedomes , and states of the Worlde haue sundrie agreementes , and compositions . The Nobles , and Commons there neither drewe the Swerde , nor attempted force against the Prince . They sought onely the continuance of Goddes vndoubted Truthe , and the Defence of theire owne liues against your Barbarous & cruel inuasions . They remembred , At Vassei , Anno . 1562. bisides al other warninges , your late dealinge at Vassei , where as great numbers of theire Brethren were suddainely murthered , beinge togeather at theire Praiers in the Churche , & holdinge vp theire Innocente handes to Heauen , & callinge vpon the name of God . Achab saide sometime to the Prophete Elia , Thou arte he , 3. Regum . 17. that troublest the whole Countrie of Israel . But Elias made him answeare , It is not I , that trouble the Countrie : It is thou , and thy Fathers house , whiche houe foresaken the commeundementes of the Lorde , and houe folowed after Baalim .

The Subiecte is bounde to obey his Prince : how be it not in al thinges without exception : but so far as Goddes glorie is not touched . These Nobles had learned of S. Peter , Actor 5. Psal. 118. Psalm. 146. It is better to obey God , then man : And of the Prophete Dauid , Better it is to truste to God , then to truste in Princes . For they are mortal , and shal die : theire Sprite shal be taken from them , & then shal they returne into the Earthe . Neither maye a godly Prince take it as any dishonour to his estate , to sée God obeied before him . Leo. De Passione Domi. Serm. 10. For he is not God , but the Minister of God . Leo saithe , Christus quae Dei sunt , Deo , quae Caesaris sunt , Caesari reddenda constituit , &c. Hoc est verè non impugnare Caesarem , sed iuuare : Christe commaunded , that is dewe vnto God , to b●●euen to God : that is dewe vnto Caesor , to be geuen to Caesar . Verily this is not to rebel against , but to helpe Caesar . Likewise S. Ambrose , beinge him selfe in manner a Capitaine vnto the people in Goddes quarrel against Valentinian the Emperour : Ambros . Lib. 5. Epist 33. Quid praesentius dici potuit à Christianis viris , quàm id , quod hodie in nobis Spiritus Sanctus Ioquutus est ? Rogamus , Auguste , non pugnamus : Non timemus , sed Rogamus : What could be more boldly spoken of Christian menne , then that the holy Ghoste spake in you this daye ? ( Thus ye saide ) Wee beseeche thee , Noble Emperour , wee fight not . Wèe feare thee not , but wee beseeche thee .

To conclude , the Quéene of Scotlande is stil in quiet possession of her estate : & is obeied of her Subiectes , so far as is conuenient for godly people to obeye their Prince .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 7.

That wee haue seditiously fallen from the Catholique Churche , and by a wicked schisme and diuision haue shaken the whole worlde , and troubled the common peace and vniuersal quiet of the Churche : & that , as Dathan and Abiron conspired in times past against Moyses and Aaron , euen so wee at this daye haue renounced the Bishop of Rome , without any cause reasonable .

M. Hardinge .

Before Luthers time al Christen people came togeather peaceably into one Churche , vnder one Heade , as Shepe into one folde vnder one Shepeherd , and so liued Vnanimes in domo , in one accorde . But after that Sathan , Diuision and Schismefolowed vpon Luthers Preachinge . 1. Iohan. 2. who at the beginninge begyled Eue , had persuaded some to taste of the poisoned apple of Luthers Newe Doctrine : they went out from vs , who were not of vs ( for if they had ben of vs , they had remained with vs ) forsooke the Catholike Churche of Christ , sorted them selues into Synagoges of Antichriste , withdrewe them selues from obedience to warde theire Pastor and Iudge , and sundred them selues into diuerse Sectes . This schisme , diuision , and conspiracie against the Head Shepherd , is nolesse wicked , Numer. 6. then that of Dathan and Abiron against Moyses and Aaron was . For as God commaunded Moyses and Aaron to be obeyed of the children of Israel , Greate Vntruthes . so Christe commaunded al his Shepe to obeye and heare the voice of him , Iohan. 21. whom in Peter , and succedinge Peter , he made Shepeherd ouer his whole stocke .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Before the time that Goddes Holy wil was , that Doctour Luther should begin to publishe the Gospel of Christe , there was a general quietnesse : I graunte : sutche as is in the night season , when folke be asleape . Yet , I thinke , to continewe sutche quietnesse , no wise man wil wish to sleepe stil .

Ye saye , They haue forsaken the Catholique Churche : They went from vs . who were not of vs . Nay rather , M. Hardinge , wée are returned to the Catholique Churche of Christe , & haue forsaken you , bicause you haue manifestly foresaken the wayes of God . But what if a man would alitle put you frendely in remembrance ? Sir , it is not so longe sithence your selfe were out of your owne Catholique Churche : and so were gonne out from your selfe : bicause your selfe were not of your selfe . For if your selfe had bene of your selfe , you would haue remained better with your selfe . It is no wisedome , in carpinge others , to offer occasion against your selfe . I beseche God to geue you grace , that you maye Redire ad cor , and returne againe to your selfe . But here you bringe in a great many Vntruthes in a thronge togeather . You saye , that as God commaunded the people of Israel to obey Aaron , so Christe commaunded al his Shéepe to obey the Pope succedinge Peter : You saye , Christe made the Pope Shepheard ouer his whole flocke : You cal him Our Pastour , and our Iudge : you cal him the head Shepheard : & for proufe hereof , for some countenance of Truthe , ye allege the one and twentith Chapter of S. Iohn , in whiche whole Chapter notwithstandinge , ye are not able to finde , neither any suche commaundement of Christe : nor any mention of Peters Successour : nor Al his Shéepe : nor Shepheard ouer his whole Flocke : nor Our Pastour : nor Our Iudge : nor Our Head-shepheard . It is mutche to reporte Vntruthe of a man . But to reporte Vntruthe of Christe , and of his Holy Woorde , and that willingly , and witingly , and without feare , some menne thinke it to be the Sinne against the Holy Ghoste .

As for these woordes , Feede my Sheepe , Feede my Lammes , they perteine as wel to other the Apostles , Matthae . 28. 1 ▪ Cor. 15. as to Peter . Christe saide generally to al his Disciples , Goe ye into al the worlde , and preache the Gospel . And Paule saithe of him selfe , Ego plus omnibus laboraui : I haue taken more paines ( and more fedde the flock ) then al the rest . Surely me thinketh it is a weake kinde of reasoninge , to saie thus , Christe bade Peter féede his shéepe , Ergo , he made him headshepheard ouer al the worlde .

But if this whole Prerogatiue hange of Féedinge the Flocke , what then if the Pope Féede not ? What if he neuer minde to Féede , as thinkinge it no parte of his office ? To conclude , what if he be vtterly ignorant , as many haue benne , and cannot Féede ? Yet must he needes be the headshepheard ouer the whole flocke ? and must al the shéepe obey him , and heare his voyce , that cannot speake ? Verily S. Augustine saithe , Qui hoc animo pascunt oues Christi , vt suas velint esse , non Christi , se conuincuntur amare , Augustin in Iohan . Tracta. 123. non Christum , vel gloriandi , vel dominandi , vel acquirendi cupiditate : Who so euer they be , that Feede the sheepe to the ende to make them theirs , and not Christes , they soue them selues , and not Christe , for desire either of glorie , or of rule , or of gaine .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 8.

That we set naught by the authoritie of the Auncient Fathers and Councels of olde time : that we haue rashly and presumptuously disanulled the olde Ceremonies , whiche haue benne wel allowed by our fathers and forefathers many hundred yeeres past , both by good customes , and also in ages of more puritie : and that we haue by our owne priuate head without the authoritie of any Sacred & General Councel brought Newe Traditions into the Churche : & haue donne al these thinges not for Religions sake , but onely vpon a desire of contention and strife . But that they for their parte haue chaunged no manner of thinge , but haue helde & kepte stil sutche a number of yeres to this very day al thinges , as they were deliuered from the Apostles , and wel approued by the most Auncient Fathers .

M. Hardinge .

The auncient fathers are but men , if they please you not . But if ye finde anie colour of aduantage but in the newe Schoolemen , ye make mutche of it . So that your owne opinion is the rule to esteeme them or despise them . Councels . Councles ye admitte as your phansie and pleasure leadeth , sometimes three , sometimes foure , sometimes fiue or sixe . But al ye would neuer admitte : and yet so many , as are general and haue bene confirmed by the See Apostolike , Ceremonies of the Churche Abolished by the Gospellers . they are al of like authoritie . Concerninge Ceremonies , if ye shewe vs not the vse of Chrisme in your Churches , if the signe of the Crosse be not borne before you in Processions , and other where s vsed , if Holy Water be abolished , if lightes at the Gospel and communion be not had , if peculiar Vestimentes for Deacons , Priestes , Byshoppes be taken awaie , and many suche other the like : iudge ye , whether ye haue duely kepte the old Ceremonies of the Churche .

As for your newe Traditions , P●ites and Ceremonies , I can not tel , what to make of them , nor whether I maye so terme them .

No manner of thinge haue we changed that is of necessitie either to be beleued , or to be obserued .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée allowe the Auncient Fathers the same credite , that they them selues haue euer desired . S. Augustine hereof writeth thus : Neque quorumuis Disputationes , quantumuis Catholicorum , August . and Fortunatianum , ●pist . III. & laudatorum hominum , velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus , vt nobis non liceat , salua reuerentia , quae illis debetur , aliquid in illorum Scriptis improbare , aut respuere , si fortè inuenerimus , quòd aliter senserint , quàm Veritas habet . Talis sum ego in scriptis aliorum : tales volo esse intellectores meorum : We receiue not the Disputations or Writinges of any menne , be they neuer , so Catholique , or praise-woorthy , as wee receiue the Canonical Scriptures : but that , sauinge the reuerence dewe vnto them , wee may wel reproue or refuse some thinges in theire writinges , if it happen wee finde , they haue otherwise thought , then the Truthe may beare them . ●utche am I in the writinges of others : and sutche would I wishe others to be in mine . Likewise he writeth to S. Hierome , Non puto , August . ad Hieronym . Epist. 19. Frater , te velle Libros tuos legi , tanquam Apostolorum , aut Prophetarum : I recken not , my Brother , that ye would haue vs so to reade your Bookes , as if they were written by the Apostles , or Prophetes . It is certaine , Tertullian , EEyprian , Clemens Alexandrinus , Papias , Irenaeus , Victorinus , Lactautius , Hilarius , & other Ancient Fathers were oftentimes mutch deceiued , S. Hierome s●●ffeth at S. Ambroses Commentaries vpon Luke , and calleth them , Nugas , trifles , and nicknameth S. Ambrose , Picus Mirandula in Apologia . August . contra Cros . onium , li. 2. cap. 21. sometime callinge him Coruus , sometime Cornicula Likewise S. Augustine saithe , Ecclesiastici Iudices , vt homines , plaerunque falluntur : The Iudges , or Doctours of the Churche , as beinge men , are often deceiued . And Thomas of Aquine saithe , Non tenemur de necessitate Salutis , credere non solùm Doctoribus Ecclesiae , vt Hieronymo , aut Augustino , sed ne ipsi quidem Ecclesiae , nisi in his quae pertinent ad substantiam Fidei : Picus Mirandula in Apologia Thomas in Wee are not bounde vpon the necessitie of Saluation to beleue not onely the Doctours of the Churche , as Hierome , or Augustine , but also neither the Churche it selfe , sauinge onely in maters concerninge the substane of Faithe .

Touchinge the authoritie of Councels , Quod●ibet . 9. Arti. Vltimo . August contra Donat ist. lib. 2. Cap. 3. S. Augustine saithe , Ipsa plenaria Concilia saepè priora à posterioribus emendantur , cùm aliquo experimento aperitur , quod clausum e●at : The very General Councels are often corrected , the former by the later , as often as by trial and experience the thing is opened , that before was shut . Likewise Panormitane saithe , Plus credendum est vni priuato fideli , quàm toti Concilio , & Papae , si meliorem habeat authoritatem , vel rationem : Wee ought to geue more credite to one priuate ●aye man , Abb. Panormit . De Electio , & Electi Potest . Cap. Significasii . Esai . 8. then to the whose Councel , and to the Pope , if he bringe better authoritie , and more reason . If the Counsel be wicked , and carried with malice , as many haue benne , specially within these fewe late hundred yeres , We saie , as the Prophete Esai saithe , Inite Consilium , & dissipabitur : Loquimini verbum , & non stabit : quia nobiscum est Dominus : Take Counsel togeather , and it shal be broken : Speake the woorde , and it shal not holde : For the Lorde is with vs .

As for the late Schole Doctours , your selues weigh them as litle , as noman lesse . You say in youre common talkes , Bernardus non vidit omnia : You haue controlled your Doctour of al Doctours . Peter Lombard , with this common Caueat in the Margine , Hic Magister non tenetur : Here our Doctour is no Doctour . You your selfe M. Hardinge , M. Hardinge , Fol. 92. b. M Hardinge , Fol. 232. b. M. Hardinge . Fol. 258. in this youre very Booke against our Apologie sate . that your Doctor Gratian was deceiued , and in stéede of Anacletus alleged Calixtus . You youre selfe againe saie , If in a secrete pointe of learninge S. Augustine , or S. Cyprian teache singularely , Wee folowe them not : mutche lesse do wee binde our selues to beeue , what soeuer ●lbertus Pigghius hath written . And againe , Wee binde our selues neither to the woordes of Syluester , nor of Pighius . And againe . wee take not vpon vs to defende al that the Canonistes , or Scholemen saie , or write . And an other of your companie saieth , that your Doctour Gratian hath published great vntruthes , Copus Dialogo 1. Pag. 33. & wilfully falsified the General Councel . Nomen Vniuer salis , saithe he , assutum est à Gratiano . Thus , M. Hardinge , ye vse your Doctours , euen as the Marchante vseth his Counters : sometime to stande for an hundred pounde , sometime for a pennie .

But nowe let vs a litle examine the particulars of your bil . Ye come in with Processions , with Lightes , with Torches , with Tapers , with Chrisme , with Oile , with Tunicles , and Chisibles , with Holy Water , and holy Breade , and I knowe not , what els : as if al these thinges had descended directly from the Apostles , and without the same the Churche of God were no Churche .

Verily , Oile . M. Hardinge , wée hate not any of al these thinges . For wée know , they are the Creatures of God . But you haue so misused them , or rather se destled , and beraied them with your superstitions , and so haue with the same mocked , & deceiued Goddes people , that wée can no longer continue them without great conscience . I wil passe ouer the rest , and speake onely of your Oile , whereof you séeme to make moste accoumpte . De Consec . Olei . In your Pontifical thus are ye taught to blesse your Oile : Fiat Domine hoc Oleum te benedicente , vnctio Spiritualis ad purificationem Mentis , & Corporis : O Lorde , set this Oile by thy blessinge be made a Spiritual ointement to purifie both Soule and Body . And againe , Emitte quaesumus , Sancte Pater , Spiritum Sanctum Paracletum tuum de Coelis in hanc pinguedinem Oliuae , ad refectionem Corporum , & Sanationem animarum : O holy Father , wee beseche thee , sende downe thy holy Sprite the Comforter from He●uen into this fatnesse of the oliue , to the refresshinge of Body and Soule . In like sorte ye are taught to prate ouer the sicke : Per hanc Sanctam vnctionem , & suam prissimam misericordiam ignoscat tibi Deus , vt per hanc vnctionem habeas Rem●ssionem omnium peccatorum : By this holy enointinge , and by his greate Mercie God pardone thee , that by this enointing thou maiste haue Remission of al thy finnes . These thinges cannot be denied : they are written in al your Panuals , vsed and practised in al your Churches . Ye cal it Holy Oile , & Oile of Saluation : Ye beare the people in hande , that thereby they shal haue healthe of Body & Soule : And yet in deede ye haue no Chrisme at al. For Pope Innocentius saithe , Chrisma conficitur ex Oleo , & Balsamo : Extra . De Sacra vnctions . The Chrisme is made of Oile and Balsame . And to the makinge thereof the Balsame is as necessarie , as the Oile . But these many hundred yeres ye haue had no Balsame , nor hath there benne any to be had : Therefore ye haue had no Chrisme this longe while , but haue deceiued the people with quid pro quo , geuinge them one thinge for an other .

Nowe that your Oile came not from the Apostles , your owne Doctour Panormitane is witnesse . Panormitan . De Consuetud . ca. 5. For thus he writeth , Apostoli olim conferebant Spiritum Sanctum sola manus impositione . Et quia hodié Praelati non sunt ita beati , fuit institutum , vt illi conferrent hoc Sacramentum cum Chrismate : The Apostles in olde time gaue the Holy Ghoste onely by s●ieinge on of handes . But nowe a daies bicause Bishoppes be not so Holy , order hathe benne taken , that they shoulde geue this Sacramente with Chrisme .

Neither is this mater so thorowly approued by al Antiquitie , as M. Harding imagineth . For Pope Innocentius is witnesse , that in olde times there were some , Extra . De Sacra vnction . Vngitur . that founde faulte with these dooinges . These be his woordes : Non ludaizat Ecclesia , cùm vnctionis celebrat Sacramentum , sicut Antiqui mentiuntur : The Churche is not Jewishe in solemnizinge the Sacramente of Vnction , as the Elders haue misreported .

Touching your Lightes , In Annotationi . in . 5. librum contra Marcionem . and Tapers , Beatus Rhenanus a man of greate learninge , and iudgemente , doubteth not , but ye borowed the vse thereof from the Heathens . I graunte , the Christians in olde time had Lightes in theire Churches , when they mette togeather at their common Praiers . But it appeareth by the Ancient Fathers , that the same Lightes serued to solace them against the darke , Augu. De tempo . in Natali Do. Sermo. 3. and not for any vse of Religion . S. Augustine saith , Vouent alius Oleum , alius Ceram ad luminaria noctis : They promise ( to the Churche ) one Oile , an other waxe , Eusebius devita Constan . Orat. 3. Hieron aduer. Vigilantium . M. Hardinge , Fol. 7. b. 〈…〉 6. ca. 2. for the night Lightes . Likewise saithe Eusebius , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ignis Purus , quantum satis esset and praebendum lumen precantibus . A cleare Light , so mutche as might suffice the people at theire Praiers . So likewise saithe S. Hierome , Cereos non clara luce accendimus , sed vt noctis tenebras hoc solatio temperemus : Wee sight not cut Tapers at midde daie , but onely by this comfort to eas the darkenesse of the night . Therefore , M. Hardinge , vnto you , that set vp Lightes in your Churches , as your selfe saie , to the Honour of God , the Aunciente Father Lactantius saithe thus , Num mentis suae compos putandus est , qui Authori , & Datori Luminis Candelarum , Lightes . Water . & Cerarum lumen offert pro munere ? What , maie wee thinke , he is wel in his wittes , that vnto God the Maker and Geuer of Light wil offer vp Candels , and Tapers for a present ? Verily Tertullian saithe , Accendant quotidiè lucernas , quibus lux nulla est , Tertul. De Idololatria . &c. Illis competunt & Testimonia tenebrarum , & auspicia poenarum : Let them that haue no sight ( of God ) set vp their Tapers euery daye , &c. To them belongeth bothe the Testimonie of darknesse , and the beginninge of Paine .

But what shal I saye of your Holy Water ? No doubte it must néedes serue , as your Oile doothe , to the saluation of body , and soule . Augustinus Steuchus , a principal Doctour of your syde saithe , Augu. Steucha● in librum numer . Cap. 19. Non inane institutum est , quòd Aquas sale & Orationibus sanctificamus , vt ad eorum aspersum delicta nostra deleantur . It is no vaine inuention , that wee hallowe Water with Salte and Prayers , that by the sprinkesinge thereof our sinnes maye be forgeuen . Thus profanely , and Heathenlike he writethe , as if the Bloude of Christe were quite dried vp .

Beside al this , one of your Doctours of Louaine tellethe vs in good sadnesse , by reporte of one of the Iesuites , Copus Dialo . ● . Pa. 18. b 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : vlato in Timaeo : & Theodoret. De corrigendis Graecorum affectibus , Lib. 1. that in India Holy Water is very wholesome to driue awaye Mise , and to make barren Women to conceiue . I faine not this mater : The place maye be séene . O M. Hardinge , I must néedes saye of your companie , that one saide sometime of the Grecians , Theise that cal themselues Catholiques , are euer Children .

Ye saye , ye haue chaunged nothinge , that is of necessitie either to be beléeued , or to be obserued . What necessitie ye meane , I can not wel contecture . For when you liste , your Holy Water , and Holy Breade must néedes be of necessitie . But in déede of the ancient Godly orders of the Churche ye haue in a manner leafte nothinge , onlesse it be suche as ye might best haue spared : and the same ye haue so defaced withe superstition , that it hathe nowe quite loste his former vse , and is not the same it was before . Certainely if you had changed nothinge , then should you haue nowe no Priuate Masse .

Therfore wee maye iustly saye to you , as Tertullian saide in like case vnto the Romaine Heathens : Tertull. in Apologetico . Vbi Religio ? vbi veneratio Maioribus debita ? Habitu , victu , instructu , sensu , ipso denique sermone Proauis renūtiastis . Laudatis semper Antiquitatem : nouè de die viuitis . Per quod ostenditur , dum à bonis Maiorum institutis deceditis , ea vos retinere & custodire , quae non debuistis : cùm quae debuistis , non custoditis . Where is your Religion ? where is the reuerence dewe to your forefathers ? You haue forsaken them in your apparel , in your diet , in your order , in your meaning , and in your speeche . Ye change your life daily : yet ye praise Antiquitie . Whereby it appeareth , while ye seaue the good orders of your Elders , that yee keepe the thinges , yee should not keepe : seeinge ye keepe not the thinges , ye should keepe .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 10.

And that this mater should not seeme to be donne but vpon priuie sclaunder , and to be tossed to and fro in a corner onely to spite vs , there haue benne besides wilily procured by the Bishop of Rome certaine persons of eloquence yenough , and not vnlearned neither : whiche should put theire healpe to this cause nowe almost despaired of , and shoulde polishe and set foorthe the same , bothe in bookes and withe longe tales , to the ende , that , when the mater was trimly and eloquently handled , ignorant and vnskilful persons might suspecte there was somme greate thinge in it . In deede they perceiued , that theire owne cause did euery where goe to wracke , that their steightes were now espied and lesse esteemed , and that theire healpes did dayly faile them , and that theire mater stoode altogeather in greate neede of a cunninge spokesman .

M. Hardinge .

Wee cannot despaire of this cause , Confidence of the Catholikes touchinge their cause . Lueae 21. Matthae , 28. Johan . 14. The Catholike Church assuredly defended . Ephes. 4. onlesse wee would forsake our Faithe , as ye haue . For beleuinge Christe . whiche our faithe leadeth vs vnto , wee cannot mistruste the continuance of this cause . Heauen and Earthe shal passe , but my woordes shal not passe , saithe Truthe it selfe . And his woordes tel vs , that he wil be with his Churche al daies to the worlds ende : And that he hath besought his Father to geue to it the Sprite of Truthe to remaine with it for euer . Then be wee moste assured of this cause . Wee tel you therefore , it standeth , and shal stande by Christes presence , and by the Holy Ghostes assistance , to the ende . Your cause yet standeth not , but wauereth and tottereth , as that whiche S. Paule termeth a puffe of doctrine , and doubtlesse shortely fall it shall , as all Heresies haue fallen .

The authours and professours of them be dead and rotten , in Helfire with weepinge and grintinge of teeth . The like iudgement lookeye and your folowers to haue , if ye repent not , and reuoke your Heresies by time .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wee cannot despaire . saithe M. Hardinge , of the continuance of our cause . For Heauen and Earthe shal passe : but Christes Woorde shal not passe . He wil be with vs al daies to the worlds ende , &c. These Woordes , M. Hardinge , be true and certaine : and therefore our hope is the firmer . Christe hath promised that the Sprite of Truthe shal remaine for euer , but not in the Pope , and his Cardinalles . For thereof he made no promise . Nay rather the Prophete Esai saithe , The Sprite of God shal rest vpon the poore , Esaie . 〈◊〉 . and méeke harted , that trembleth at the Woorde of the Lorde .

The Churche of God shal stande stil , yea though Rome were possessed with Antichriste . Matthae . 15. It is true that Christe saithe , Euery plante , whiche my Heauenly Father hath not planted , shal be rooted vp : Vpon whiche woordes S. Hilarie saithe , Significat , Traditionem hominum cruendam esse , Hilar in Ca. 15. Matthaei . cuius fauore transgressi sunt Praecepta Legis : He meaneth , that the Tradition of man , for whiche Traditions sake they haue broken the Lawe of God , shal be taken vp by the rootes . Heauen and Earthe shal passe : and your fantastes , and diuises , M. Hardinge , shal passe : the Lorde hath spoken it : But the Woorde of God , and his Churche shal endure for euer .

But M. Hardinges Almanake saithe , Our Doctrine shal fal , and that very shortly . Herein I professe , I haue no skil . Goddes wil be donne . It is his cause : what so euer shal happen , his name be blessed for euer . In like sorte the Heathens in olde times , as S. Augustine saithe , vaunted them selues against the Faithe of Christe . August . In Psal. 70. Ad certum tempus sunt Christiani : postea peribunt , & redibunt Idola : redibit quod erat anteà . Verùm tu , cùm expectas , miser Infidelis , vt transtant Christiani , transis ipse sine Christianis : These Christians are but for a while : ●al they shal , and that shortly . Then shal our Idols come againe , and it shal be as it was before . But , O thou miserable Infidel , while thou lookest that the Christians should passe , thou possest awaie thee selfe without the Christians . Againe be saithe , Ecce veniet tempus vt finiantur , & non sint Christiani . Augusti . in eundem Psal●●m . Sicut coeperunt ad aliquo tempore , ita vsque ad certum tempus erunt . Sed cùm ista dicunt , sine fine moriuntur : & permanet Ecclesia praedicans brachium Domini omni generationi venturae : They saie , behold , the daie wil come , when al these Christians shal haue an ende . As they had a time to beginne , so shal they haue a time to continewe . But while they make these crakes , they them selues die without ende . But the Churche contineweth stil praisinge the almighty arme of God to euery generation that is to come .

But ye saie , The Authours and Professours of our Doctrine be damned in Hel fiere , and crie , Peccaui . This is a very terrible kinde of talke . But it is a rashe parte for you , M. Harding , so suddainely to skip into Goddes Chaire , and there to pronounce your Sentence Definitiue like a Iudge . August . in Psal. 36. par. 3. But God wil iudge of your iudgemente . S. Augustine saithe , Alia est sella terrena , aliud Tribunal . Coelorum : Ab inferiori Sententia accipitur . à superiori Corona : The earthly Chaier is one thinge : the Iudgemente seate in Heauen is an other . From the one wee receiue Sentence , from the other we receiue a Crowne . O M. Hardinge , God graunte you maie once crie , Peccaui : lest the time come that ye shal crie out , as it is written in the Booke of Wisedome : Sapien. 5. These are they whom wee sometime had in derision , and in a parable of reproche . Wee fooles thoughte theire life madnesse , and theire ende without honoure . But nowe are they coumpted emonge the Children of God , and theire portion is emonge the Sainctes .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 2.

Nowe as for those thinges whiche by them haue benne laide againste vs , in parte they be manifestly false & condemned so by theire owne iudgementes , which spake them : partly againe , though they be as false too in deede , yet beare they a certaine shewe and coolour of truthe , so as the Reader ( if he take not good heede ) maie easily be tripped and brought into errour by them , specially when theire fine and cunninge tale is added thereunto : And parte of them be of sutche sorte , as we ought not to shunne them as crimes or faultes , but to acknowledge and confesse them as thinges wel done , & vpon very good reason . For shortely to saie the truthe , these folke falsely accuse and sclaunder al our dooinges , yea the same thinges , which they them selues cannot denie but to be rightly and orderly donne : and for malice doo so misconstrue and depraue al our saienges and dooings , as though it were impossible , that any thinge could be rightly spoken or donne by vs . They should more plainely & sincerely haue gonne to woorke , if they would haue dealte truely : But nowe they neither truely nor sincerely , nor yet Christianly , but darkely and craftily charge and batter vs with lies , and doe abuse the blindenesse and fondenesse of the people , togeather with the ignorance of Princes , to cause vs to be hated , and the Truthe to be suppressed .

This , lo ye , is the power of darkenesse , and of men , whiche leane more to the amased wonderinge of the rude multitude , and to darkenesse , then they doo to Truthe & Light : and , Hierony aduersus Rufinum . as S. Hierome saithe , doo openly gainsaie the Truthe , closinge , vp theire eies , and wil not see for the nonce . But we geue thankes to the most good and mighty God , that sutche is our cause , where against ( when they would fainest ) they were hable to vtter no despite , but the same , whiche might as wel be wreasted against the Holy Fathers , against the Prophetes , against the Apostles , against Peter , against Paule , and against Christe him selfe .

M. Hardinge .

The Catholikes doo not burden you with ought , wherein by their owne iudgementes they condemne themselues , as ye sclaunder them not onely here , but oftentimes in your Booke . For if they iudged otherwise . they would not wittingly do against their iudgemente . That is the special propertie of an Heretike , whom S. Paule hiddeth al men to a voide , knowinge that he that is suche , is peruerted , Tim. 5. and seemeth euen condemned by his owne iudgement .

They shewe bothe your blasphemous Heresies , and your wicked actes . Luther , ye knowe . powred out his Heresies and villanies . &c. Your robbinge of Churches , persecutinge of men for standinge s●edfastly in the faithe of the Holy forefathers , your incestuous mariages of Monkes , Friers , and Nonnes , your breache of solemne vowes for fleashly pleasure , your prophaninge and abandoninge of Holy Sacramentes , your contempt of auncient and godly ordinaunces and discipline of the Churche , and suche other thinges of like estimation .

For in deede the catholikes doo persecute you , ( if suche deserued entreatinge of euill persons maye be called persecution ) and al good folk besides , wee gr●●te , and shal so doe , so longe as they love the Truthe , and keepe them in the vnitie of the Churche . Yet with no other minde doo they persecu●e you , Genes. 16. Iohan. 2. 〈◊〉 . then Sara did Agar : then Christ the Iewes , whom he whipt out of the Temple : then ●eter did S●nom Magus .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Yewis , M. Hardinge , it might please you to remember , that Bartholomaeus Latomus a Doctour of your side confesseth in writinge to al the worlde , ●ar . Latonus aduersus Bucerum that our request touchinge the Holy Ministration vnder Bothe Kindes , accordinge to Christes first Institution , is iuste and reasonable :

That Gerardus Lorichius an other of your owne side saithe , Sunt Pse●docatholici , qui Reformationem Ecclesiae quoquo modo remorari non verentur : They be false Catholiques ( and this , ●erar . Lorichius De Missa prorogand● . In 7. par. Canonis . M. Hardinge , he speaketh of you , beinge one of your owne ) they be False Catholiques , that hinder the Reformation of the Churche by al meanes they be hable . He saithe , you be false Catholiques , far contrary to the common opinion : and concludeth in the ende , that the wilful mainteinance and sequel of your Doctrine in this pointe , is , as he calleth it , Haeresis , & Blasphemia pestilens , & execrabilis : An Heresie , and a Blayhemie against God , Pestilent and Cursed ;

That others of your ●de confesse , that this your vse of Ministration vnder one kinde , Steuin Gard. in the Diuels Sophist●ie . whiche nowe ye cal Catholique , began first , not of Christe , or his Apostles , or any Ancient Learned Father : but onely of the errour , or , as he better termeth it , of the simple Deuotion of the People :

That Albertus Pighius , the stoutest gallante of al your Campe , graunteth there haue benne , Albertus ●ighius De Missa P●●uata . Platina in Vio 2. 10. Shidanus Li. 4. and be many Abuses in your Passe , notwithstandinge ye haue tolde vs far otherwise :

That Pope Pius oftentimes graunted , and vsed commonly to saie , He sawe great causes , why Priestes shoulde be restoared to the libertie of Mariage : That Pope Adrian by his Legate Cheregatus confessed openly at Norenherg in the General Diet of al the Princes of Germanie , that al the il of the Churche came firste à culmine Pontificio , From the toppe Castle of the Pope :

And to be short , M. Hardinge , it might haue pleased you to remember , that your selfe in your first Booke , M. Harding fo. 22 b. in the Defence of your Priuate Passe , haue written thus : Mary , I denie not , but that it were more commendable , and more Godly on the Churches Parte , if many well disposed , and examined woulde be partakers of the blessed Sacramente with the Prieste .

Al these thinges , M. Hardinge , be they ●ses , or Abuses : Reasonable , or Vnreasonable : Right , or Wronge : Better or woorse : Be they neuer so wicked , neuer so Blasphemous , neuer so cursed , yet be they stoutly defended stil , and no hope offered of amendement : With what Conscience of your parte , he onely s●eth , that s●eth the Conscience . You graunte , ye persecute your brethren , where ye haue the Swerd , and maye persecute : but as Sara did Agar : Gene. 16 Iohn 2. Chrysost. in Mat. thae . Homi. 19. as Christe did the Iewes : and not otherwise . Verily , M. Hardinge , that Christe , or Sara were persecutours . I haue not greatly heard . But I remember Chrysostome saithe thus : Nunquid Ouis Lupum persequitur aliquando ? Non , sed Lupus ouem . Sic enim Caim persecutus est Abel : Persequution for Loue . non Abel Caim . Sic Ismael persecutus est Isaac , non Isaac Ismael : Sic Iudaei Christum , non Christus Iudaeos : Haeretici Christianos , non Christiani Haeresicos . Ergo ex fructibus corum cognoscetis eos : What , doothe the Sheepe perscute the Woulfe at any time ? No , but the Woulfe doothe persecute the Sheepe . For so Caim persecuted Abel , not Abel Caim : So Ismael persecuted Isaac , not Isaac Ismael : So the Iewes persecuted Christe , not Christe the Iewes : So the Heretiques persequute the Christians , not the Christiaus the Heretiques . 〈◊〉 ye shal knowe them by their fruites .

S. Augustine saithe , August contra Lite , Pe●ili a. Lib. 2. Cap 19. Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 19. Non eo modo persecutionem passi sunt Pseudoprophetae ab Elia , quomodo ipse Elias à Rege nequissimo : Neither were the Palse Prophetes so persecuted by Elias , as Elias was persecuted by the wicked Kinge . Surely Chrysostome saithe , Quem videris in sanguine persequutionis gaudentem , Lupus est : Whome so euer ye see ●eioicinge in the Bloudde of persequution , he is the Woulfe .

But yée pretende greate good wil , and saye , Ye persecute and murder your Brethren for Loue , In vespit . as Christe persequuted the Iewes . So I trowe , Aristophancs saithe , Philippides tooke a cudgel , and beatte his Father , and al for loue . How be it . M. Hardinge , neither are you armed , as Christe was armed : nor was Christe armed , as you are armed . I must saye to you , as S. Augustine saithe vnto the Heretiques the Donatistes : August . contra Liter . Per●lta●● Lib. 2. Cap. 87. Hanc formam ne ab ipsis quidem Iudaeis persecutoribus accepistis . Illi enim persequuti sunt Carnem ambulantis in terra : Vos Euangelium sedentis in Coelo : Ye learned not this fourme of persequution , no not of the Iewes . For they persequuted the Fleashe of Christe walkinge in the Earthe : You persequute the Gospel of Christe sittinge in Heauen . Holcore in . 1. Senten . Quaest 3. Arti. 8. Dubi 2. Orig. in Genes. Homi. 7. Gene. 21. Calat . 4. Robert Holcote emonge other his doubtes moueth this question An Amor sit odium : Whether Loue be hatred ; or no. Yf he were nowe aliue , & sawe your dealinge , and the kindnesse of your Loue , I beleue , he woulde put the mater out of question , & saye , vndoubtedly your Loue is hatred , it is no Loue . So Moses saithe , Ismael plaied or sported with Isaac . But S Paule saithe , The same plaieinge and sportinge was persecution . For thus he writeth : He , that was after the Fleashe , persequuted him , was after the Sprite .

I doubte not , but you thinke , of your parte it is wel donne . For so Christe saithe , Who so euer shal Murder you , Iohan. 16. shal thinke be offereth a Sacrifice vnto God . And your selues haue sette to this note in greate Letters in the Margine of your Decrees : Iudaei mortaliter peccassent , Dist. 13. Item : In Margine . si Christum non Crucifixissent : The Iewes had Sinned deadly , if they had not hinged Christe vpon the Crosse . Benedictus Deus , qui non dedit nos in captionem Dentibus eorum : Blessed be God , that hath not geuen vs to be a Praie vnto their Teeth .

To al the reste it is sufficient for M. Hardinge to saye , They be Blasphemous Heresies : wicked Actes : Lutheres Heresies , and villanies : Robbinge of Churches : Breaches of Vowes : Pleas●ely pleasures : Abandoninge of the Holy Sacramentes : Malices , Sclaunders , and Lies . And bisides these thinges , in effecte he answeareth nothinge . Nowe to answeare nothinge with some thinge , it were woorthe nothinge .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 5.

Nowe therefore , if it be leeful for these folkes to be eloquent and finetongued in speakinge euil , surely it becommeth not vs in our cause , beinge so very good , to be doumbe in answearinge truely . For , menne to bee carelesse , what is spoken by them and theite owne mater , be it neuer do falsely and sclaunderousely spoken , ( especialy when it is sutche , that the Maiestie of God , and the cause of Religion maye thereby be dammaged ) is the parte doubtlesse of dissolute and retchelesse persons , and of them , whiche wickedly winke at the iniuries donne vnto the Name of God . For although other wronges , ye oftentimes greate , maye be borne and dissembled of a milde and Christian man : yet he that goeth smoothely awaye and dissembleth the mater when he is noted of Heresie , Ruffinus was woont to denie , that man to be a Christian . Wee therefore wil doo the same thinge , whiche al Lawes , whiche natures owne voice doothe commaunde to be donne , and whiche Christe him selfe did in like case when he was checked and reuiled : to the in●●●t wee maye put of from vs these mennes sclaunderous accusations , and maye defende soberly and truely our owne cause and innocencie .

M. Hardinge .

Yee haue not proued , the Truthe to be of your side , nor euer shal be able to proue , mainteininge the Doctrine of the Lutheras , Zwinglians , and Caluinistes , as ye doo . Nowe al dependeth of that pointe . And bicause yee haue not the Truthe , what so euer ye saye , it is soone confuted : and what so euer ye bringe , it is to no purpose .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This is the very issue of the case : Whether the Doctrine that wée professe , be the Truethe , or no. Whiche thinge through Goddes Grace , by this our conference , in parte maye appare . I beseeche God the Authour of al Truthe , and the Father of Light , so to open our hartes , that the thinge that is the Truthe in déede , maye appeare to vs to be the Truthe .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 2.

For Christe verily , when the Phariseis charged him with Sorcery , as one that had some familiare Sprites , and wrought many thinges by theire helpe : I , saide he , haue not the Diuel , but doo glorifie my Father : but it is you , that haue dishonoured me , and put me to rebuke and shame . And S. Paule , when Festus the Lieutenaunt scorned him , as a mad man : I ( saide he ) moste deer Festus , am not mad , as thou thinkest , but I speake the Woordes of Truth & sobrenesse . And the ancient Christians , when they were sclaundered to the people for mankillers , for Adulterers , for committers of incest , for disturbers of the common Weales , and did perceiue , that by sutche sclaunderous accusations the Religion whiche they professed , mighte be brought in question , namely if they should seeme to holde their peace , & in manner confesse the faulte : lest this might hinder the free course of the Gospel , they made Orations , they put vp Supplications , and made meanes to Emperours , and Princes , that they mighte defende them selues and theire Felowes in open Audience .

M. Hardinge .

When ye prooue , that ye haue the Truthe , then maye ye be admitted , in your Defence to alleage the example of Christe , of S. Paule , and of the firste Christians . But nowe wee tel you , beinge as you are , these examples serue you to no purpose . And for ought ye haue saide ●itherto , the Anabaptistes , Libertines , Zwenkfeldians , Nestorians , Eunomians , Arians , and al other pestiferous Heretikes might saye the same aswel as ye . Christe was charged of the Iewes with vsinge the power of impure Sprites , Luke . 11. Act. 26. Tertul. in Apolog. blasphemously : Paule was scorned of Festus , as a mad man , without cause : the Ancient Christians were accused by the Infidels of hainous crimes , falsely . But ye are accused of Heresies and sundrie Impieties , by Godly , Wise , and Faithful men , vpon Zeale , by good aduise , and truely . And as for those Auncient Christians , when they made Apologies or Orations in the Defence of the Christen Faithe , The Apologies of the olde Fathers were lawfully published . Eccles. Hist. Lib 4. Cap. 26. they did it so as became Christen men , plainely and openly . Either they offered them to the Emperours with thei owne handes , or put to their names , and signified to whome they gaue the same . As S. Hilary deliuered a Booke in Defence of the Catholique Faithe against the Arians to Constantius . Melito and Apollinaris wrote their Apologies to the Emperours . S. Iustine the Philosopher and Martyr gaue his firste Apologie for the Christians to the Senate of the Romaines , the seconde to Autonius Pius Emperour : Eccles. Hist. Lib. 5. Cap. 21. Tertullian to the Romaines . S. Apollonius the Romaine Senatour and Martyr did Reade his Booke openly in the Senate house , whiche he had made in Defence of the Christian Faithe . The Apologie of the Churche of England for foorthe suspitiously , and without due order . But yee doo your thinges , that ought to be done openly , in Hucker Mucker . Ye set foorth your Apologie in the name of the Churche of Englande , before any meane parte of the Churche were priuie to it , and so as though either ye were ashamed of it , or afraide to abide by it . The inscription of it is directed neither to Pope nor Emperour , nor to any Prince , nor to the Churche , nor to the general Councel then beinge when ye wrote it , as it was moste conuenient : There is no mans name set to it : Vntruthe . It is Printed without Priuilege of the Prince , contrary to Lawe in that behalfe made : allowed neither by Parlament , nor by Proclamation , nor agreed vpon by the Cleregie in Publike and lawful Synode . This packinge becommeth you : it becommeth not the vpright Professours of the Truthe Wherefore your vnlawful Booke , The Apologie ● famous Libel . as it is , so it maye be called an Inuectiue , or rather a Famous Libel , and sclaunderous Write , as that whiche seemeth to haue benne made in a corner , and cast abroade in the streetes , the Authours whereof the Ciuil Lawe punis punisheth .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Howe far foorth these examples maye serue vs , wée remit the iudgement thereof to the discrete Christian Reader . It is not yenough thus to crie out , Impieties , and Heresies . M. Hardinges bare Woorde in this behalfe is not sufficient to warrant an euidence . Certainely emonge other greate comfortes , that wee haue in Goddes mercies , this is one , and not the leaste , that touchinge the Innocencie , and right of out cause , wée maye saye to you , as Christe saide to the Phariseis , Wee haue not the Diuel , Iohan. 2. Act. 26. but wee glorifie our Father : Or , as S. Paule saide vnto Festus , Wee are not madde ( M. Hardinge ) as ye reporte of vs : but wee viter vnto you the Woordes of Truthe and sobrietie .

But this is a piteous faulte : The names of al the Bishoppes , Deanes , Acchedeacons , Personnes , Vicares , and Curates of England are not sette to our Apologie . It is directed neither to the Emperour , nor to the Pope , nor to the Councel . Neither is it Printed with Priuilege of the Prince . This laste clause is a manifest Vntruthe , and maye easily be reproued by the Printer . Hereof ye conclude , It is a sclaunderous Libel , and was written vnder a Hedge , and , as you saye , in Hucker Mucker .

Firste , were it graunted , that al , ye saye of Hilarie , Melito , Iustinus , Tertullian , and Apollonius were true : Yet muste it néedes folowe , that al Bookes , that are not Subscribed with the Authours names , were written in a corner ? Firste to beginne with the Scriptures , tel vs , M. Hardinge , who wrote the Bookes of Genesis , of Exodus , of Leuiticus , of Numeri , of Deuteronomium , of Io●ue , of the Iudges , of the Kinges , of the Chronicles , of Iob , &c. Who inrote these Bookes ? I saye : Who authorized them ? Who Subscribed his name ? Who set to his S●ale ? The Booke of Wisedome by some is Fathered vpon Philo , by some vpon Salomon . The Epistle vnto the Hebrewes , some saye , was written by S. Paule : Some , by Clemens : Some , by Barnabas : Some , by some other : & so are wee vncertaine of the Authours name . S. Marke , S. Luke , S. Iohn , neuer once named them selues in their Gospels . The Apostles Crede , the Canons of the Apostles , by what names are they Subscribed ? Howe are they authorized ? To what Pope , to what Emperour were they offered ? To leaue others the Auncient Doctours of the Churche , whiche , as you knowe , are often misnamed , Ambrose for Augustine , Gréeke for Latine , Newe for Olde : your Doctour of Doctours , the fairest flower , and croppe of your garlande Gratianus , is so wel knowen by his name , that wise menne can not wel tel , Erasm . In Praesae . in tertiam Seriem quaerti Tom. Hieronymi . What name to geue him . Erasmus saithe of him thus , Quisquis fuit , siue Gratianus , siue Crassianus : What so euer name wee may geue him : be it Gratianus , or Crassianus . And againe he saithe , Eruditi negant , illam Gratiani , nescio cuius , congeriem vlla vnquam Publica Ecclesiae authoritate fuisse comprobatam : The learned saye , that Gratians Collection , or heape of maters , was neuer allowed by any Publique Authoritie of the Churche . Erasm . In Praefatione in . 4. Tom. Hieronymi . And againe , Non constat vllis argumentis , quis fuerit Gratianus , quo tempore opus suum exhibuerit , cuius Pontificis , cuius Concilij fuerit Authoritate comprobatum : It cannot appeare by any tokens of recorde , neither what this Gratian was : nor at what time he offered vp his Booke : nor what Councel , nor what Pope allowed it .

Who subscribed the late Councel of Colaine ? Who subscribed the Booke not longe sithence sette abroade vnder the name of the Churche of Colaine , and named Antididagma ? To be shorte , who subscribed your owne late Booke intituled the Apologie of Priuate Masse ? Where were they written ? Where were they Subscribed ? By what authoritie , and vnder what names were they allowed ? I wil saye nothinge of your late Famouse Volume bearinge the name of Marcus Antonius Constantius . This Booke , as you see , hathe three greate names : Notwithstandinge the Authour him selfe had but twoo : and yet not one of al these three . What , M. Hardinge , would you make your Brethren beleue , that al these be but sclaunderous Writes , diuised onely in Hucker Mucker , and vnder a Hedge ?

The Decree , Actor . 13 the Apostles made in the fiftenthe Chapter of the Actes , it appeareth not , it was so curiously subscribed with al theire names . The Protestation of the Bohemiens in the Councel of Basile , the Confession of the Churches of Geneua & Heluetia , for ought that I knowe , haue no sutche Publique Subscriptions . Neither is it necessarie , nor commonly vsed , to ioyne Priuate mennes names to Publique maters : neither in so mightie & ample a Realme , vpon al incident occasions is it so easy to be donne . Briefely our Apologie is confirmed by as many names , as the highe Courte of Parlamente of England is confirmed .

Neither was the same conceiued in so darke a corner , as M. Hardinge imagineth . For it was afterwarde imprinted in Latine at Parise : and hathe henne fithence Translated into the Frenche , the Italian , the Duche , and the Spanishe tongues : and hathe benne sente , and borne abroade into France , Flaunders , Germanie , Spaine , Poole , Hungarie , Denmarke , Sueucland , Scotland , Italie , Naples , and Rome it selfe to the iudgemente and trial of the whole Churche of God . Yea it was Readde , and sharply considered in your late Couente at Trident , & greate threates made there , that it should be answeared : and the mater by twoo Notable learned Bishoppes taken in hande , the one a Spaniarde , the other an Italian : Which twoo notwithstandinge , these fiue whole yéeres haue yet donne nothinge , nor , I belèeue , intende any thinge to doo . In deede certaine of your Brethren haue benne often gnawinge at it : but sutche as care nothinge , nor is cared , what they write .

But if names be so necessarie , wee haue the names of the whole Cleregie of Englande , to confirme the Faithe of our Doctrine , and your name , M. Hardinge , as you can wel remember , emongst the reste : onlesse , as ye haue already denied your Faithe , so ye wil nowe also denie your name .

To conclude , it is greatter modestie to publishe our owne Booke , without Name , then , as you doo , to publishe other mennes Bookes in your owne Names . For in deede , M. Hardinge , the Bookes ye lende so thicke ouer , are not yours . Ye are but Translatours : ye are no Authours . Yf euery birde shoulde fetche againe his owne Feathers , alas your poore Chickens woulde die for colde .

But you saye , Wee offered not our Booke to the Pope . No , neither ought wée so to doo . He is not our Bishop : He is not our Iudge . Wee maye saye vnto him , as the Emperour Constantius saide sometime to Pope Liberius , Theodoret. in Hist. Ecclesiast. Quoia es tu pa●s Orbis terrarum ? What greate portion art thou of the whole Worlde ? As for your Councel of Tridente , God wote , it was a séely Couente , for ought that maye appeare by theire Conclusions .

Wée offered the Defense , and profession of our Doctrine vnto the whole Churche of God : & so vnto the Pope , & the Councel too , if they be any parte , or member of the Churche : & by Goddes mercie , shal euer be hable in al places bothe with our handes , and with our Bodies to yelde an accoumpte of the hope wee haue in Iesus Christe . Whereas it liked you to terme our Apologie a Sclaunderous Libel , I doubt not , but who so euer shal iudifferently consider your Booke , shal thinke M. Hardinges tonge wanteth no sclaunder .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 3.

But wee truely , seeinge that so many thousandes of our brethren in these last twentie yeeres haue borne witnesse vnto the Truthe , in the middes of most paineful tormentes , that coulde be diuised : and when Princes desirous to restraine the Gospel , sought many waies , but preuailed nothinge , & that nowe almost the whole worlde dothe beginne to open theire eies to beholde the lighte : wee take it , that our cause hathe alreadie benne sufficiently declared and defended , and thinke it not needeful to make many woordes , seinge the very mater saithe yenoughe for it selfe .

M. Hardinge .

The reasons and examples ye bringe for it , conclude nothinge . Bicause lackinge Truthe . ye builde vpon a false grounde , what so euer ye set vp , eftsones it falleth , beinge stated by no iuste proufe . Here ye goe foorthe , and faine woulde ye proppe vp that matter : but your reasons be as weake as before . There haue not so many thousandes of your Brethren benne burnte for Heresie in these laste twentie yeeres , as yee pretende . But when ye come to boastinge , then haue ye a greate grace in vsinge the Figure Hyperbole : Then Scores be Hundreds : Hundreds be Thousands : Thousands be Millions .

But what was Michael Seruetus the Arian , Seruetus burnt for Heresie at Ge●eua . who was burnte at Geneua by procurement of Caluine , a Brother of yours ? Dauid George that tooke vpon him to be Christe , who was taken vp after he was buried and burnte at Basile , Dauid George . Ioan of Kent . was he your Brother ? To come neare home , Ioan of Kent that fil●h , who tooke foorthe a lesson further then you taught her ( I trowe ) or yet Preache , was she a Sister of yours ? So many Adamites , so many Zwenck feldians , so many hundreds of Anabaptistes and Libertines , as haue within your twentie yeeres benne ridde out of their liues by fiere , swoorde , and water in sundry partes of Christendome , were they al of your blessed Brotherhed ?

And this is the chiefe argument yee make in al that Huge Dungehil of your stinkinge Martyrt , Actes and Monumentes . whiche yee haue intituled Actes and Monumentes . But we tel you , It is not deathe that iustifieth the cause of dyinge : But it is the cause of dyinge that iustifieth the Death .

Princes ( ye saye ) were desirous to restraine your Gospel , and though they went about it by many waies , yet preuailed they nothinge . Therefore your Doctrine must needes be the true Gospel . As good an Argumente as this is , A weake argument of Truthe . may Theeues make in their Defence . For Princes be desirous to keepe their Dominions from Robbinge , and haue euer deuised straight Lawes and punishmentes for restrainte of Theeues : yet be Theeues euery where , and thefte is dayly committed .

And whereas your Gospel is a grosse Gospel , This Carnal Gospel soone taketh place amonge carnal hearers . a Carnal Gospel , a Belly Gospel : wonder it is not , if those people be not wholy withdrawen from assentinge to the same , who be not of the finest wittes . and be muche geuen to the Seruice of the Belly , and of the thinges beneath the Belly . Yet where the Princes haue vsed most diligence , Heresies restrained by due punishement . and best meanes to stoppe the course of your Heresies , there the people remaine most Catholike : As euery man may iudge by vewe of Italy , Spaine , Base Almaine , and Fraunce , before that weightie Sceptre by Gods secrete prouidence for punishement of sinne , was committed to feeble handes , that for tender age were not able to beare it .

Your other argument , The argument of the defenders seruinge wel for Antichrist . whereby ye would persuade your Gospel to be the trueth , is , that nowe ( as ye crake ) almost the whole world doth beginne to open their eies to behold the light . This argument seruethe maruelous wel for Antichrist . And truely , if he be not already come , ye may very wel seme to be his foreronners . Nay Sirs , if it be true that ye saye , that almost the whole world loketh that waye , knowinge that in the latter dayes and towarde the ende of the world iniquitie shal abounde , and the Charitie of the more parte shal wexe colde : Matth. 24. Wee maye rather make a contrarie argument , and iudge your Gospel to be erroneous and false , because the multitude is so ready to receiue it . The argument of multitude returned vpon the defenders to a contrary conclusion . Againe Christe hathe not loued his Churche so little , as that the world should nowe beginne to open their eies to behold the light . For the same presupposeth a former general darkenes . It standeth not with Christes promises made to the Churche , touchinge his being with the Churche al daies to the worldes ende , and the Holy Ghostes remaininge with it the Sprite of Truthe for euer , that he should suffer his Churche , Matth. 28. Iohan. 14. to continewe in darkenes and lacke of Truthe , these thousand yeres past , and now at the latter daies to reuele the Truthe of his Gospel by Apostates , Vowebreakers , Churcherobbers , and sutche other most vnlike to the Apostles .

The B. of Sarisburie .

What so euer wée saye , here appeareth smal weight in M. Hardinges saieinges . Wée make no boaste of the numbers , and multitudes of our Martyrs . And yet , as S. Paule saithe , if wée should needes boaste , wée would chiefly boaste of sutche our infirmities . 2. Cor. 1● . But wée reioise with them , and geue God thankes in theire behalfe , for that it hath pleased him , to prepare theire hartes vnto temptation , to trie and purifie them as Gold in Fornace , and to kéepe them faitheful vnto the ende .

As for Dauid George , and Seruete the Arian , and sutche other the like , they werè yours , M. Hardinge , they were not of vs : You brought them vp , the one in Spaine , the other in Flaunders . Wée detected theire Heresies , and not you : Wée arreigned them : Wée condemned them : Wée putte them to the Exequution of the Lawes . It séemethe very mutche to calle them our Brothers , because wée burnte them . It is knowen to Children , it is not the deathe , but the cause of the deathe that maketh a Martyr . August in Psal. 34. Par. 2. S. Augustine saithe , Tres erant in Cruce : Vnus Saluator : Alter Saluandus : Tertius Damnandus . Omnium par Poena , sed dispar causa : There were three hanginge on the Crosse : The first was the Saueour : The seconde to be Saued : The third to be Damned . The Paine of al three was one , but the cause was diuerse .

Your Anabaptistes , and Zuenkfeldians , wée knowe not . They finde Harbour emongste you in Austria , Slesia , Morauia , and in sutche other Countries , and Citties , where the Gospel of Christe is suppressed : but they haue no Acquaintance withe vs , neither in Englande , nor in Germanie , nor in France , nor in Scotlande , nor in Denmarke , nor in Sueden , nor in any place els , where the Gospel of Christe is clearely preached . But it hathe benne your greate Policie theise many late yeres , when ye murdered the Sainctes of God , firste to roote out theire Tongues , for feare of speakinge : and then afterward to telle the people , they were Anabaptistes , or Arians , or what ye lifted . Withe sutche policie Nero sometime that Bloudy Tiranne burnte the Christians in heapes togeather , Suetonius Tranquillus in Nerone . and made open Proclamations , that they were Traitours , and Rebelles , and had ●ired the Cittie of Rome .

It pleaseth you for lacke of other Euasion , to cal the Storie of Martyrs a Dungbi● of Lies . But theise Lies shal remaine in Recorde for euer , to testifie and to condemne your Bloudy dooinges . Ye haue imprisoned your Brethren , ye haue stripte them naked , ye haue scourged them with Roddes , ye haue burnte theire handes and armes withe flaminge Torches , ye haue famished them , ye haue drowned them , ye haue burnte them : ye haue sommoned them beinge deade , to appeare before you out of theire graues , ye haue ripte vp theire buried Carkesses , ye haue burnte them , ye haue throwen them out into the Dunghil : ye tooke a poore Babe falling from his Mothers Wombe , and in most cruel , and Barbarous manner threw him into the fiere .

Al theise thinges , M. Hardinge , are true : they are no Lies : The eyes , and consciences of many thousandes can witnesse your dooinges . The Bloud of innocent Abel criethe to God from the earthe : and vndoubtedly , he wil require it at your handes . Chrysost in Matth. 1 Iomi . 19. Chrysostome saithe , as it is alleged before , Quem videris in Sanguine persecutionis gaudentem , is Lupus est : Who so euer hathe pleasure in the Bloude of persecution , the same is a Wolfe . Ye slewe your Brethren so cruelly , not for Murder , or Robberie , or any other gréeuous crime , they had committed , but onely for that they trusted in the Liuinge God . Howe be it , wée maye saye withe the Old Father Tertullian , Tertull. ad Scapulam . Crudelitas vestra nostra gloria est : Your crueltie is our glorie .

Whereas wée auouche the Power and Authoritie of Goddes Holy Woorde , for that the more it is trodden downe , the more it growethe , and for that the Kinges , and Princes of this world with al theire puissance , and policie were neuer hable to roote it out , youre answeare is , that this reason may serue théeues as wel as vs . To dissemble youre odious comparisons , howe lightly so euer it shal please you to weigh this reason , yet youre Forefathers the Phariseis in olde time séemed to make some accoumpte of it . Iohan. 12. For thus they murmured , and misliked emong them selues : Videtis , nos nihil proficere . Ecce Mundus totus post eum abijt . Ye see , wee can doo no good . Loe the whole world ( for al that wée can dòo ) is gone after him . Tertullian likewise saithe , Exquisitior quaeque crudelitas vestra illecebra magis est Sectae . Plures efficimur , Tertull. in Apologetico . quoties metimur a vobis . Semen est Sanguis Christianorum : The greattest crueltie , that ye can diuise , is an entisement to our Secte . Howe many of vs so euer ye murder , when ye come to the viewe , ye finde vs moe and moe . The seede of this encrease is Christian Bloud . August . de Ciui . lib. 22. cap. 6. So S. Augustine , Ligabantur , includebantur , caedebantur , torquebantur , vrebantur : & multiplicabantur : They were fettred , they were imprisoned , they were beaten , they were rackte , they were burnte : and yet they multiplied . S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . lib. 1. Epist. 3. Gregorius Nazianzen . in reditium suum ex agro . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Euseb. li. 4. ca. 8. Sacerdos Dei Euangelium tenens , & Christi praecepta custodiens , occidi potest , vinci non potest : The Priest of God holdinge the Testamente in his hande , killed he maye be , but ouercome he can not be . So likewise Nazianzene , Morte viuit : vulnere nascitur : depastum augetur : By deathe it liuethe : by woundinge it springethe : by diminishinge it encreasethe .

Thus theise Holy Fathers , when they sawe , the Gospel of Christe increased and grewe by persecution , contrary to al iudgement of reason , and worldly policie , they were enforced , contrary to M. Hardinges iudgemente , therein to acknowledge the mighty power , and hande of God , and an vndoubted Testimonie of the Truthe . Iustinus a Godly Learned Father , and Martyr saithe thus of him selfe , Cùm auditem Christianos publicè traduci , & exagicati ab omnibus , viderem autem eos ad mortem , & ad omnia , quae ad terrorem excogitari possent , esse intrepidos , cogitabam , nullo modo posse fieri , vt illi in aliquo scelere viuerent : When I ( béeinge an Heathen , and one of Platoes Scholars ) heard that the Christians were accused , and reuised of al menne , and yet sawe them to goe to theire deathe , and to al manner terrible , and cruel tormentes , quietly , and without feare , I thought with mee selfe , it was non possible , that sutche menne should liue in any wickednes . Sozomen . lib 1. cap. 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 The like writethe Sozomenus of the Christians in the Primitiue Churche : Nec adulatione victi , nec minis perterriti , magnum omnibus argumentum dabant , sese de maximis praemiis in certamen descendere : The Christians neither relentinge by faire meanes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 nor shrinkinge for threates , made it wel appeare to euery man , that it was for some greate rewarde , they suffred sutche trouble .

Theise learned Fathers therefore sawe , that M. Hardinge could not sée , the encreasinge of the Gospel throughe deathe , and persecution , maugre the might of worldly Princes , Psal. 2. is an euident token of the Truthe . The Prophete Dauid saithe , The Princes came , and consulted togeather againste God , and againste his Christe . But he that dwelle the in heauen , Prou●r . 22. wil laughe them to scorne . There is no wisedome , there is no policie , there is no counsel against the Lorde .

Further , you saye , Our Gospel is grosse , and the people dulle , and sensual , and geuen to theire belly , and beastly pleasure , and therefore the apter , and readier to receiue the same . O M. Hardinge , what a desperate cause is this , that cannot stande without sutche manifeste blasphemie of the Gospel of Christe , and dispiteful reproche of Goddes people ? Certainely S. Rom. 2. Psalm. 2. Paule saithe , The Gospel is the power of God vnto Saluation : And the Prophete Dauid saithe , The people is Christes enheritance . What hathe the people so mutche offended you , that you should either in this place so scornefully , and so reprochefully reporte of them , or in your former Booke so disdeingfully cal them Swiene , M. Hardinge , Fol. 155. b. and Dogges ? Yet is it not so longe sithence your selfe were an earnest professour of the same Gospel , were it neuer so grosse . Where was then your finenesse , and sharpnesse of witte ? Where was your belly ? Where was the reste ? You should not so soone haue forgotten your owne selfe .

Surely M. Hardinge , neither wil the sensual man drowned in filthy , and beastly pleasures take vp his Crosse , and folowe Christe , and yelde his necke to your swearde , or his body to your fie●e : neither is it a grosse , or sensual Gospel , that wil leade him to the same .

You saye , it standethe not withe Goddes promisse , to forsake his Churche a thousande yeeres . It is mutche for you , M. Hardinge , openly to breake Goddes commaundementes , to defile his Holy Sanctuarie , to turne light into darkenesse , and darkenesse into light : and yet neuerthelesse to binde him to his promisse . Al menne be liers , Psal. 50. 2. Tim. ● . but God onely is true , and preuailethe , when he is iudged . God knoweth his owne . Christe wil be euermore with his Churche , yea although the whole Churche of Rome conspire against him .

But why doo you so mutche abate your rekeninge ? Why make you not vp your ful accoumpte of fiftéene hundred thréescoare and sixe yéeres , as ye were woonte to doo ? Ye haue here liberally , and of your selfe quite striken of fiue hundred thréescoare and sixe yeeres , that is to saye , the whole time , wherein the Apostles of Christe , and Holy Martyrs , and other Learned Fathers , and Doctours liued : in whiche whole time it appeareth by your owne secrete Confession , the Churche of God might wel stande bothe without youre Priuate Masse ( for then was there none ) and also without many other your like fantasies . Neither ought you , M. Hardinge , so déepely to be greeued , and to calle vs Apostates , and Heretiques , for that wee haue reformed either our Churches to the Paterne of that Churche , or our selues to the example of those Fathers . Verily in the iudgement of the godly , fiue hundred of those firste yeeres are more woorthe , then the whole thousande yeeres that folowed afterward .

Therefore I wil aunsweare you with the woordes of S. Hieron ad Pammachium & Oceanum . Hierome : Quisquis es assertor ●ouorum Dogmatum , quaeso te , vt parcas Romanis ●uribus : parcas Fidei , quae Apostolico ore laudatur . Cur post quadringentos annos docere nos niteris , quod anteà nesciuimus ? Cur profers in medium , quod Petrus , & Paulus edere noluerunt ? Vsque ad hunc diem sine ista Doctrina Mundus Christianus fuit . Thou , that art a Mainteiner of newe Doctine , what so euer thou be , I praie thee spare the Romaine eares : spare the Faithe , that is commended by the Apostles mouthe . Why goest thou aboute nowe after foure hundred yeeres to teach vs that Faithe , which before wee neuer knewe ? Why bringest thou vs foorthe that thinge , that Peter , and Paule neuer vttered ? Euermore vntil this daye the Christian world hathe benne without this Doctrine .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 7.

For yf the Popes woulde , or els if they could weigh with theire owne selues the whole mater , and also the beginninges and procedinges of our Religion , howe in a manner al theire trauaile hathe come to nought , no body driuinge it forewarde , and without any worldly healpe : and howe on the other side , our cause , againste the wil of Emperours from the beginninge , againste the willes of so many Kinges , in spite of the Popes , and almoste maugre the head of al menne , hathe taken encrease , and by little and little spredde ouer into al Countreis , and is come at length euen into Kinges Courtes and Palaces : Theise same thinges me thinke the might be tokens greate yenough to them , that God him selfe doth strongly fight in our quarrel , and dothe from Heauen laughe at theire enterprises : and that the force of the Truethe is sutche , as neither Mans Power , nor yet Helle gates are able to roote it out .

M. Hardinge .

It is wel , that ye vse the terme of the beginninge and procedinges of your Religion . For in deede of late yeres it beganne , not at Ierusalem , but at Wittenberg . Neither was it first deliuered vnto you by an Apostle , but by an Apostata . Stil it procedeth , and the farther of from the end . And wel may ye name it your Procedinges , for there is no staie in it . What likethe to day , mislike the tomorowe . The seely begiled soules that folowe it , be as S. Paule saithe , ouer learninge , and neuer reachinge to the knowledge of the Truthe . ● . Tim. ● .

Did not your Religion beginne firste of Co●etise , Vntruthe . and grew it not afterward of rancour and malice , The first beginninge of this newe Gospel , and the occasion that first moued Luther to Heresie . whiche Martin Luther conceiued against the Dominican Friers in Saxonie , because Albert the Archebishop of Mentz and Electour of the Empire , had admitted them to be Preachers of the Pardon of a Croisade against the Turkes , contrary to an Ancient custome , whereby the Augustine Friers , of whom Luther was one , had of longe time ben in possession of that preserment ? Is it not wel knowen what afstirre Frier Luther made against Iohn Tetzet the Frier of S. Dominikes order , for that the said Tetzet was made chiefe preacher of a Pardon . wherein , was greate gaine , and thereby him selfe was bereft of that sweete Morsel , whiche in hope he had almost swallowed downe ?

Where you saie , your Religion is spred abroade , and hath taken so mutche encrease against the willes of Princes , and almost maugre the head of al men : that is as false , as your Religion is .

Did not the greate slaughter of your hundred thousand Boures of Germanie signifie to the world , The diete of Smalcald . your cause to haue had the helpe of man : What maie weindge of the great League of Germaine Princes made at the diere of Smalcald , for defence of your Lutheran Gospel ?

The troubles and tumultes of Fraunce raised by your Brethren the Huguenots , The Hugu●no● of Fraunce . and the lament able outrages committed there for your Gospels sake , be they not a witnes of fresh memorie , that your Religion is maintained , set forthe , and defended with power and helpe of men ?

That it is nowe at length come euen into Kinges Courtes and Palaices , The comminge of Luthers Gospel into Princes Courtes is a weake argumens for the Truthe . it mouethe wise men no lesse to suspect it , then to praise it .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Ye make your selfe game , M. Hardinge , for that the Preachinge of the Gospel issued first out of Wittenberg , and not from Rome : Notwithstandinge Wittenberg is a noble , and a famous Vniuersitie , so generally frequented out of al foreine Countreis , and so mutche commended for al kindes of tongues , and liberal knowledge , as not many the like this day in Christendome .

But be it , that Wittenberg were so simple a burrough , as M. Hardinge imagineth . Yet were it not more simple then was the Towne of Nazareth : in whiche poore Towne notwithstandinge , firste appeared the most glorious , and greattest Light of the world . Christian modestie would not disdeigne the Truthe of God in respecte of place . That rather becommethe the Proude lookes of the Scribes , and Phariseis . They despised Christe and his Disciples , and called them Nazarenes , in despite of his Countrie . And there hence , it is likely , first grewe that scorneful question vsed by Nathanael , Iohan. 1 Nunquid ex Nazareth potest aliquid esse boni ? Can any good thinge come from Nazareth , so poore a Towne ? So Celsus the Heathen despised the Religion of Christe , bicause it came ( not from Rome , or Athens , but ) from the Barbarous Iewes . Origen . contra Celsum li. 1. For thus Origen reportethe of him : Dogma Christianuns affirmat à Barbaris cepisse ortum , hoc est , à Iudaeis . He saithe , the Doctorue of the Christians had his beginninge onely from a Barbarous Nation , that is to say , from the Iewes .

But this is the mighty hande and power of God . 1 Cor. 1. He chusethe the weake thinges of the world , to confounde the strong : and the foolishe thinges of the world , to confounde the wise . 1. Reg. 17. 2. Thess ▪ 2 Matthae . 11. Psal. 24. Galat. 3. He ouerthrowethe the greate Goliath with a seely slinge , and blowethe downe Antichriste in al his glorie with the breathe of his mouthe . I thanke thee , O Father , saithe Christe : for that thou haste hid theise thinges from the wise , and Politique : and haste reueled the same vnto the simple . The Faithe of Christe is not bounde to place . The whole Earthe is the Lordes , and al the fulnesse of the same . There is nowe no Distinction of Gréeke , and Barbar●us : Wée are al one in Christe Iesu .

Notwithstanding , the Gospel of Christe that wée professe , neither had his beginninge from that Learned Father Doctour Luther , nor came first from Wittenberg . It is the same Gospel , Mich. 4. wherof it is Written by the Prophete , The Lawe shal come out of Sion , and the Woorde of God out of Jerusalem .

Touchinge your longe tale of Doctour Luthers auarice , and sale of Pardounes , I minde not , nor néede not to answeare you . It is a simple stale sclaunder . Yet it often seruethe your turne of course , when other thinges beginne to faile . In déede Fréere Tecel the Pardoner made his proclamations vnto the people openly in the Churches in this sorte : Iohan . Sleidanus , lib. 13. Although a man had lyen with our Lady the Mother of Christe , and had begotten her with Childe , yet were he hable by the Popes power to Pardonne the faulte . Against this , and other like foule Blasphemies Doctour Luther firste beganne so speake . Nowe whether this occasion were sufficient , or no , let M. Hardinge him selfe bée the Iudge .

Wée graunte , the Princes , and Estates of the world haue nowe laide theire power to assiste the Gospel . Goddes Holy Name therefore be blessed . Howe be it the Gospel came not first from them . It sprange vp , and grewe by them many wheres against theire willes .

Neither is the Gospel therefore the more to be suspected , bicause it hathe entred into Princes Courtes . Daniel was in Kinge Nabuchodonosors Palaice , and taught him to knowe the Liuinge God . Philip. 1. S : Paule reioiced , and tooke comforte in his bandes , for that there were some euen in Neroes Courte , that began to hearken to the Gospel . And Eusebius saithe , Valeriani Aula erat iam Ecclesia Dei : Valerian the Emperours Courte was now become the Churche of God . Athanasius saithe vnto the Emperour Iouinian , Conueniens est Pio Principi , &c : The Studie and loue of Godly thinges , Theod. li. 4. ca. 3. Cyrill . in Epist. ad Theodos . & Valentinian . is very meete for a Godly Prince . For so shal you surely haue your harte euer more in the hande of God . Likewise saithe S. Cyril to the Emperours Theodosius and Valentinian : Ab ea , quae erga Deum est , pietate , Reipub. vestrae status pendet . The state , and assurance of your Empiere hangethe of your Religion towardes God .

So likewise saithe Sozomenus of the Emperour Arcadius , Sozom. li. 9. ca. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 .

Therefore it behouethe Princes to vnderstande the cases of Goddes Religion , and to receiue Christe with his Gospel into theire Courtes . Psal. 2. Esaie. 49. For God hathe ordeined Kinges , as the Prophete Dauid saithe , to serue the Lorde : and , as Esai saithe , to be Nources vnto his Churche .

If there be occasions of vanities or wickednesse in Princes Courses , yet is there no Courte therein comparable to the Courte of Rome . For there , S. Bernard saithe , Mali proficiunt : boni deficiunt : The wicked waxe : the godly wane .

Ye striue in vaine , M. Hardinge : This Counsel is not of Man : it is of God . Yf Princes with theirs powers could not staie it , mutche lesse can you staye it with vntruthes and fables . The poore beguiled soules , of whom ye speake , are neither so séely , Act. 5. nor so simple , but they are able to espie your folies . The Truthe of God wil stande : Vanitie will falle of it selfe . Remember the Counsel of Gamaliel : Fight not against the Sprite of God .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 3.

For they be not al madde at this daye , so many Free Citties , so many Kinges , so many Princes , whiche haue fallen awaye from the Seate of Rome , and haue rather ioined them selues to the Gospel of Christe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

M. Hardinges answeare hereto is longe : the effecte thereof in short is this :

The Faithe of the Holy Romaine Churche , is the very Catholique Faith , which who so foresake , shal be companions with Diuels in euerlastinge fiere .

And where ye saie , so many Free Citties , so many Kinges , I praie you , howe many free Citties can you name , that haue receiued your Sacramentarie Religion ? Nay the Free Citties of Germanie , as many as haue foresaken the Catholique Churche , doo they not persecute you the Sacramentaries ? But , say ye , they be fallen from the Seate of Rome . So be the Greekes also in a pointe or twoo : yet condemne they you for Heretiques .

Neither be al the Free Citties in al the Countrie of Germanie fallen from the See Apostolike . Of fiue partes of that great Countrie , at leaste twoo remaine Catholique .

Let vs see , how make ye vp the number of so many Kinges , ye speake of ? The Realmes of Englande , and Scotlande , bicause by Goddes prouidence the Gouernement of them is deuolued to Women , for as mutche as they be no Kinges , though they haue the ful right of Kinges , of them I speake not . Now onely twoo Christened Kinges remaine , the Kinge of Denmarke , and the Kinge of sweden . Geate you nowe vp into your Pulpites like bragginge cockes on the rowst : Flappe your whinges , and crow out aloude , so many free Citties , so many Kinges .

But what thinke you of al the world before this daye ? Were al Citties , al Prouinces , al Countries , al Kinges , al Princes , &c. til Freer Luther came , and with his Nunne tolde vs a newe Doctrine , and controlled al the old , were al these mad ?

The Vertuous menne of the Societie of Iesus , haue they not brought many Countries , many Kinges , many Princes to the Faithe of Christe by preachinge the Doctrine of the Catholike Churche ? Wee wil not folowe your folishnesse in boastinge , &c. The Faithe professed in the holy Romayne Churche , is now preached in Peru in the Kingdome of Ignamban , in the Kingdome of Monopotapa , in Cambaia , in Giapan , in Cina , in Tartaio , in Basnaga , in Taprobana , in Ormaz , in Ceilon , in Zimor , in Bacian , in Macazar .

The Miracles wrought by these Holy Fathers whiche conuerted these Countries , I trowe , ye wil not accoumpte to be madnesse . Thus your vaine boast in wickednesse wrought by the power of Satan is put to silence , &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Faithe of the Romaine Churche , Greekes . saithe M. Hardinge , is the very Catholique Faithe of Christe : whiche who so foresakethe , bée he Kinge or Emperour , he shal be Companion with Diuels in euerlasting fire . Thus mutche , I trow , M. Hardinge learned of the Countrefeite Decrée of Anacletus . For thus it pleaseth him to glose , Anaclet . Epist. 1. and interlace the woordes of Christe : Super hanc Petram , id est , Super Ecclesiam Romanam , aedificabo Ecclesiam meam : Vpon this Rocke , that is to saye , Vpon the Churche of Rome , I wil build my Churche . And therfore Pope Bonifacius , for a ful resolution of the mater saithe thus : Extra . De Maior . & . Obedien , Vnam Sanctam . Glossa in eodem . Cap. Subesse Romano Pontifici , omni humanae creaturae declaramus , dicimus , definimus , & pronuntiamus , omnino esse de necessitate salutis : Wee declare , saye , determine , and pronounce , that it is of the necessitie of Saluation for euery mortal creature , to be subiecte vnto the Bishop of Rome . And the Glose likewise vpon the same , Quicquid saluatur , est sub Summo Pontifice : What so euer creature is saued , is vnder the Highest Bishop . Here is no mention neither of Christe , nor of his Gospel . Saluation , & Damnation hangeth onely of the B. of Rome . This thing once graunted , the case is cleare : The Pope him selfe hathe resolued the doubte . What should wee néede a better trial ? Cornelius Episc. Bitont . in Conci . Tridentino . Notwithstanding Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the late Chapter at Tridente , of the Bishop , and Holy Sée of Rome saithe thus , Vtinam à Religione ad Superstitionem , à Fide ad Infidelitatem , à Christo ad Antichristum , à Deo ad Epicurum velut prorsus vnanimes non declinassent , dicentes in corde impio , & ore impudico , Non est Deus : O would God ( the Pope and his Cardinales ) had not fal ●en with common consente , and altogeather , from true Religion to Superstition , from Faithe to Infidelitie , from Christe to Antichriste , from God to Epicure : saieinge with wicked harte , and shamelesse mouthe , Psal. 14. Bernard . in Cantic . Canticor . There is no God . In like sense , of the same Bishoppes , and See of Rome S. Bernard saithe , Serui Christi seruiunt Antichristo : The Seruauntes of Christe serue Antichriste . Cornelius saithe , the Bishoppes of Rome are fallen to Superstition , to Infidelitie , to Antichriste , to Epicure : & are not ashamed to saye , There is no God . Yet , saithe M. Hardinge , the Faithe of Rome is the Catholique Faithe : & who so departethe from the same , be he Kinge or Emperour , he shal be companion with the Diuel in Helle fire . And thus to saye , is no méere madnesse .

That the Princes , and frée Citties of Germanie euer persecuted vs , it is vtterly vntrue , and like the reste of your tales . They reioice in God in our behalfe : and beinge there , they receiued vs vnder theire protection , and offered vs sutche fréedome , and courtesie , as they seldome offered the like to any Nation . Certaine of them by your owne Confession , haue already agréed to al the pointes of our Doctrine . But none of them al , no not one would euer suffer the same Doctrine of ours to be condemned .

What the Grecians this daye thinke of vs , I cannot telle . Notwithstandinge it appeareth by their letters written purposely to the Churches of Bohemia , that they allowe wel of our Doctrine , and vtterly condemne yours . For thus they writte vnto them : Epist. Ecclesiae Constantinopolitanae ad Ecclesiam Pragensem . In Concil. Lateranen . Cap. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Wherefore , louing Brethren , and Children , if it be so as wee heare , and hope , make haste , that wee maie ioine togeather in Vnitie . And againe , thus it is recorded in the late Councel of Laterane , Graeci in tantum coeperunt abominari Latinos , vt si quando Sacerdotes Latini super eorum altaria celebrassent , ipsi non vellent priùs in illis sacrificare , quàm ea , tanquam per hoc inquinata lauissent : The Greekes beganne so mutche to abhorre the Latines , that , if it had happened the Latine Priestes had Ministred vpon theire aultars , they would not afterwarde make oblation vpon the same , before they had wasshed them : as thinkinge theire Aultars defiled by the Latines handeling . Wherefore , M. Hardinge , what so euer the Grecians thinke of vs , it appeareth hereby , they vtterly refuse your Communion , & condemne you for Heretiques .

But who would haue thought , M. Hardinge had benne so skilful in proportions ? The whole countrie of Germanie , saithe he , beinge diuided in equal portions , twoo of fiue remaine stil in the obedience of the See of Rome . Wée geue God thankes , it is , as it is . In déede certaine townes subiecte to the Bishoppes , in outwarde vsage of theire Churches , remaine stil , as they were before . Yet neuerthelesse where the Churches are Popishe , the people of al sortes are Protestantes , and loue the Truthe , and are mutche ashamed of your folies . It was Goddes secrete prouidence , that certaine of yours should remaine emongst vs a season , as the Cananites remained emongst the people of Israel . Otherwise within fewe yeres ye would denie , that euer your disorders had benne so greate .

It is very harde , and in manner not possible , to conuert the whole people of so greate a countrie al at once . The Heares of a mans Bearde , or Head neuer waxe white al togeather . Luc. 13. Christe compareth the Kingdome of God vnto Leauen , whiche the woman takethe , and laieth in a lumpe of dowgh . It worketh , and laboureth by 〈◊〉 , and litle , Eusebius . vntil it haue Leauened al the whole . In this sorte Eusebius séeme●● to compare the twoo partes of the Romaine Empire dissentinge in Iudgement of Religion : the East parte to the Night , and the Weaste to the Daye . Iohan. 12. 1. Corin. 15. But Christe wil drawe al vnto him selfe : and then shal God be al in al.

But here to matche our so many Kinges , and so many Princes , M. Hardinge hath brought vs a manie of newes out of Ignamban , Monopotapa , Cambaia , Giapan , Bisnaga , Ormoz , and other strange , and far Countries . There , he saithe , so many , and so many Kinges , and Princes are lately Conuerted , and brought to the obedience of the See of Rome . I marueile , he saithe not , the Man in the Moone was likewise newly Christened , to make vp the Muster .

Howe be it al these thinges muste néedes be true . For Christes owne Felowes , or , as M. Hardinge vttereth it in better wise , the Holy Fathers of the Societie of Iesus , haue sente home woorde as wel hereof , as also of sundrie Miracles wrought by the same Holy Fathers . Verily , so the name of Christe be publisshed , whether it be by them , or by vs , by Light , or by Darkenes , Goddes Holy name be blessed . But of many theire Miracles I haue no skil . For thus these Holy Fathers write , as it is saide before , that with Holy Water they haue driuen Mise out of the countrie , Copus Dialo . c. Pa. 18. Alexander de Hales , par. 4. quaes. 53. mem. 4. Ar. 3. solut . 2. Nicola . Lyra in Daniel . Ca. 14. and made Barren Women to beare Children , and sutche other the like marueilous Miracles . Neither are wée bounde of necessitie to beleue al sutche Miracles what so euer , without exception . Alexander of Hales saith , In Sacramento apparet Caro , interdum humana procuratione , interdum operatione Diabolica : In the Sacramente it selfe there appeareth Fleash , sometime by the conuciance of men , sometime by the woorkinge of the Diuel . Likewise saithe Nicolaus Lyra , Aliquando in Ecclesia fit maxima deceptio Populi in Miraculis fictis à Sacerdotibus , vel eis adhaerentibus , propter lucrum : Sometime euen in the Churche the People is shamefully deceiued with fained Miracles wrought either by the Priestes , or els by theire companions , for lukers , sake . Miracles be not euermore vndoubted proofes of True Doctrine . Augusti contra Faust Li. 13. Therefore S. Augustine saithe vnto Faustus the Manichee : Miracula non facitis : quae si faceretis , tamen ipsa in vobis caueremus : Ye woorke no Miracles : and yet if ye wrought any , at your handes wee would take heede of them . Hieremi. 23. The Prophete Hieremie saithe , Seduxerunt Populum meum in mendacijs suis , & in Miraculis suis : They haue deceiued my People by theire Lies , and by theire Miracles .

Touchinge the Conuersion of the Easte India , Vesputius writeth , there were many Godly Bishoppes there , Vesputius . and sundrie whole countries Conuerted , and Christened , longe before that either the Portugales , or the Iesuites came thither : and yet had neuer heard of the name of the Bishop of Rome .

As for the rest of the Weast Spanishe Indies , the People there liued not onely without al manner knowledge of God , but also wilde , and naked , without any Ciuile gouernmente . ●etr Martyr Mediolanen . offeringe vp mennes bodies in Sacrifice ▪ drinkinge mens bloud , and eatinge mennes fleash . Some of them woorshipped the Sonne , and the Moone : some , an ancient olde Trée : some , what so euer they sawe first in the morninge , they thought the same for that day to be theire God . Some woorshipped certaine familiar Diuels , and vnto them Sacrificed yonge boies , and girles .

Beinge in this miserable state , and naturally by the very sense , and iudgement of common reason abhorringe and lothinge theire owne blindnesse , what marueile is it , if they were easie to be leadde into any Religion , specially carrieing● sutche a shewe of apparel , and Holy Ceremonies ?

So the greate Kinge of Tartarie of late , Vesputius in Nouo Orbe , fo. 485. findinge him selfe and his people without any manner Religion , was contented to borrowe some Religion of the Tu●kes . For men would rather clothe them selues with leaues , and barkes , then to goe quite naked : and rather eate Akecornes , then die for hunger .

And what if God would vse this meane for the time , after warde the better to leade the saide nations to the cleare Light of the Gospel , as ● . Augustine saith , the shoomaker vseth his bristle not to sewe withal , but to drawe 〈◊〉 his threede ? No doubte , M. Hardinge , if your Doctrine , and ours were laide togeather , the verie Indians them selues , be they neuer so rude , woulde be able to sée . a great difference .

But let the Bishop of Rome winne abroade , and lose at home . You remember the olde Prouerbe . Dionysius Corinthi . Dionysius when he had lost his Kingdome at home at Syracusae , he gotte him selfe to Corinthe , and there became a Schoolemaister , and so séemed to continue a Kingedome stil .

Wée make no boaste , M. Hardinge , nor g●ate vs to rowste , as ye say , nor ●lappe our winges in the behalfe of theise Princes , and Countries , so many , and so many , as it pleaseth you to sporte , that haue submitted them selues to the Gospel of Christ . Neither are the same , so many , and so many , so sewe as you would séeme to make them . The Kingedome of England , the Kingedome of Scotland , the Kingedome of Denmarke , the Kingedome of Sweden : the Dukes of Saxonie , the Duke of Brunswike , the Palsgraue of Rhene , the Duke of Wirtenberg , the Landtgraue of Hessia , the Marques of Brandeburg , the Prince of Russia , al other the Earles , and noble men , and greate Citties throwgh the whole countrie of Germanie , the mighty common weales of Heluetia , Rhetia , Vallis Tellina , with so many hundred thousandes bisides in Fraunce , Italie , Spaine , Hungarie , and in the Kingedome of Poole : Certainely al these wel reckened cannot séeme so ●ewe , as ye would haue it . Yewisse , M. Hardinge , it gréeueth you ful ●ore , they are so many . Yf God of his mercy blesse those thinges . that he hath mercifully begonne . it wil be high time for you shortly to séeke a newe refuge .

We boaste not our selues of these thinges . There is no cause It is not the woorke of man : it is the onely hand of God . Dauid saith , Let the Heauens reioice : let the Earth be glad : Psal. 19. The voice ( of the Apostles ) is sounded abroade into al the world : Luc. 2. The Angels of God sange , Apocalyp. 19. Glorie be to God on high : Tertull. contra Iudeos . The Angel in the Apocalyps crieth amaine , Cecidit , cecidit Babylon illa magna : Down , down is fallen that greate Babylon : Tertullian saithe , Parthi , Medi , Elamitae , &c. The P●rthians , the Medians , the Elamites , the people of Mesopotamia , of Armenia , of Phrygia , of Cappadocia , of Pontus , of Asia , of Pamphilia , of Aegypte , of Aphrica , of Rome , of H●●rusalem , of Getusia , of Mauritania , of Spaine , of Fraunce , of Britannie , of Sarmatia , of D●cia , of Germanie , of Scythia and many other nations , and Prouinces , knowen ▪ and vnknowen h●ue receiued the Gospel of Christe . Thus saide they , the Angels , & Prophetes of God , & Holy Fathers , and yet without boastinge , or fléeinge to rowste , or clappinge of whinges . Geue vs leaue therefore , M. Hardinge , in the like case to solace our selues with the consition of Goddes mighty , and merciful woorkes , and humbly to reioice at the triumphe of the Crosse of Christe .

Arnobius saithe vnto the Heathens : Ne nobis de nostra frequentia blandiamut . Multi nobis uidemur : sed Deo admodùm pauci sumus . Nos gentes nationesque distinguimus : Deo vna Domus est mundus hic totus : Let vs not flatter our selues of our greate multitudes . Arnobius contra Gentes l● . 8. Vnto our selues wee seeme many : but vnto God wee are but fewe . Wee put difference bitweene Nation , and Nation : But vnto God this whole worlde is but one house . This counsel , M. Hardinge , is wholesome for either parte to folowe , that who so wil reioice , may reioice in the Lorde .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 4.

And although the Popes had neuer hitherunto leasure to consider diligently and earnestly of these maters , or though some other cares doo now let them , and diuers waies pulle them , or thoughe they coumpt these to be but common and trieflinge studies , and nothinge to appertaine to the Popes worthinesse , this maketh not why our mater ought to seeme the woorse . Or if they perchaunce wil not see that , whiche they see in deede , but rather wil withstande the knowen Cruthe , ought wee therefore by and by to be coumpted Heretiques , bicause wee obey not theire wil and pleasure ?

M. Hardinge .

Sith Christe hath geuen to the Pope in Peter , Iohan. 22. whose laufull successour hè is , commission to feede his Sheepe : Holesome feedinge beinge th end of that commission , it is not to be doubted , but he that ordeined th end , hath also ordeined meanes belonginge to th end . Therefore it is not the dutie of a good and humble sheepe , to geue foorthe a malicious surmise , that the shepheard wil not see that he seeth in deede , but rather wil withstand the knowen Truthe . And what so euer sheepe be disobedient , and refuse to heare the voice of their sheepeheard , whom Christe hath made ouer them , the same be not of Christes folde . And mainteininge contrary Doctrine to their shepeheardes true Doctrine . iustly may they be accoumpted Heretikes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

To be Peters lauful Successour , it is not sufficient to leape into Peters stalle . Lauful Succession standeth not onely in possession of place , but also , and mutche rather in Doctrine and Diligence . Yet the Bishoppes of Rome , as if there were nothinge els required , euermore put vs in minde , and tel vs many gaye tales of theire Succession , Pope Symmachus saithe , In Papa si desint bona acquisita per meritum , Distin. 40. Non nos . sùfficiunt quae à loci Praedecessore praestantur : Glosa ibid. in verb. Cùm Haereditatem . If the Pope wante vertūes , Dis. 40. Non est facile . and goodnesse of his owne , Alphonsus Contra . Hares . L. yet the vertues that are geuen him by ( Peter ) his predecessour , 1. cap. 9. are sufficient . And the Glose vpon the same : Petrus fecit Papam haeredem bonitatis suae : Peter hath made the Pope Heire of his goodnesse .

But S. Hierome saithe farre otherwise : Non sanctorum filij sunt , qui tenent loca sanctorum : They be not euermore Holy mennes Children , that sitte in the roumes of Holy menne . Likewise saithe Alphonsus de Castro , a special assistante of that syde , Quamuis teneamur●●x Fide credere , verum Petri Successorem esse Supremum totius Ecclesiae Pastorem , tamen non tenemur eadem Fide credere , Leonem , aut Clementem esse verum Petri Successorem : Notwithstanding we be bounde by Faithe to beleue , that the true Successour of Peter is the highest Shepheard of the whole Churche : yet are we not bounde by the same Faithe to beleue , that Leo , or Clement ( being Eishoppes of Rome ) are the true Successours of Peter .

The woordes , Iohan. 20 that Christe spake vnto Peter , importe no Souerainetie , but were common to al the rest . Head Shepherd . S. Cyprian saithe , Hoc erant vtique coeteri Apostoli , quod fuit Petrus , pari cosortio praediti & Honoris , & Potestatis : Cyprian . de simplicita . praelato . The rest of the Apostles were euen the same , that Peter was , a● endewed with like felowship both of Honour . and of Power . What special priuilege then can the Pope claime by the Succession of S. Peter ? Or what talketh he of féeding the whole flocke of Christe , that neuer feedeth any parte therof ? wherin is the Pope like S. Peter ? or wherein euer was S. Peter like the Pope ?

Yet M. Hardinge doubteth not to geue his Definitiue Sentence , what so euer Sheepe is not obedient to the Headshepheard , is not of the flocke of Christ . The Pope also him selfe boldely warranteth the same . Thus he saithe of him selfe , Quicunque praeceptis nostris non obedierit , Dist. 81. si qui sunt : In glosa . peccatum Idololatriae , & Paganitatis incurrit : Who so euer obeieth not our commaundementes , falleth into the sinne of Idolatrie , and Infidelite . And therefore Pope Steuin thus auanceth the authoritie of his owne See : Sacrosancta Domina nostra Romana Ecclesia : Dist. 79. Opor●ebat . Our Holy Lady the Churche of Rome . Iohan. 10.

But Christe speaking of him selfe saithe , Luc. 6. I am the True Sheepheard : And , Galat. 2. Who so heareth these woordes of myne . and doeth the same . I wil liken him to a wise man . S. Paule beinge but one of the shéepe , saithe thus , I withstoode Peter ( as M. Hardinge saithe , the Head shéepheard ) euen vnto his face , for that he walked not vprightly to the Gospel of Christe . Yet was he a shéepe of the flocke of Christe . Hostiensis in this case seemeth reasonable : De concess . praebendae . Proposuit . Hostien . De Rescriptis . Si quando . ver. Sed nunquid . His woordes be these Omnes debent obedi●e Papae , quicquid praecipiat : nisi sequi possit peccatum : Al men must obey the Pope , what so euer he commaunde : so there folowe no sinne of his commaundement . Likewise Feliuus a notable Canoniste : Non obstante Plenitudine Potestatis , quae est in Papa , non est obediendum ei , peccato imminente : Notwithstandinge the fulnesse of power , that is in the Pope , when sinne shal folowe his biddinge , we may not obey him .

Yf the Pope wil claime the Headpast ourship ouer the whole flocke of Christe , or rather if he wil be taken for any Pastour at al , let him then féede the Flocke : Let him breake the breade of Life , without Leauen : Let him speake the woorde of God truely , without fables : and wée wil heare him . Otherwise S. Augustine hath warned vs : Augusti . in Iohan . tracta. 46. Sua si docere velint , ●olite audire , nolite facere . Certè enim tales sua quaerunt : non quae sunt Iesu Christi : If they wil teache you Doctrines of theire owne , see , ye heare them not : ( and what so euer sutche thing they commaunde you ) see , ye doo it not . For vndoubtedly sutche men se●ke for their owne maters : and not the thinges that perteine to Jesus Christe .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 6.

If so be that Pope Pius were the man ( wee saie not , whiche he would so gladly be called ) but if he were in deede a man , that either would accoumpt vs for his brethren , or at least would take vs to be men , he would first diligently haue examined our reasons , and would haue seene , what might be saide with vs , what against vs : & would not in his Bul , whereby he lately pretended a Councel , so rashly haue condemned so great a part of the worlde , so many Learned & Godly men , so many common wealthes , so many Kinges , & so many Princes , onely vpon his owne blinde preiudices & foredeterminations , & that without hearing of them speake , or without shewing cause why .

M. Hardinge .

Speake of Pope Pius , what ye wil , and what ye can . Neither your praise can aduaunce his estimation , nor your dispraise abase it . His singular vertues be wel knowen . God is highly to be praised for that he hath prouided for his flock so good a shepheard . As for you , as ●e taketh you to be men , so not his brethren , bicause ye haue cut of your selues from the Catholike churche . Your reasons haue ben diligently and exactly examined already . A comparison betwene the Defenders and Balsasar King of Babylon . No good wrought by reasoning with Heretikes . In respect of your reasones Learning , and Holy Scriptures whiche ye bring , ye are founde suche as Balsasar Kinge of Babylon ●as signified by the hande , that appeared writing before him in the wall .

What it is , Heretikes to be admitted to reasoning , it is and hath ben euermore too wel knowen . Be they neuer so throughly confuted , they yelde not . Ouercome they may be , reformed th●● wil not be . Therein no good lightly is done .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Yf Pope Pius w●te so good 〈◊〉 , who so , 〈…〉 thy a Passout for the Churche of God , why then did his Cat d●●lles of thee 〈◊〉 so 〈◊〉 by treason , and conspiracie to oppose him , 〈…〉 you say ▪ so good a man ▪ 〈…〉 it were not so , Oratio Pij Papae . why then did he himselfe 〈◊〉 thereof so vtterly in ●n Oration pronounced openly in Rome in the Consist●●te ▪ Is it not lauful for so good a man to liue in Rome ? Is the same Proclamation nowe practised emong the Cardinalles in Rome , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . that was sometime vsed in the Councel house at Ephesus , Nemo nostrum frugi esto . Let no good man be emongste vs :

Ye safe . Pope Pius would not vouchesaue to cal vs his Brethren . No marueile , séeing his owne dèere , and first begotten Children the Cardinales would no lenger haue him to be theire Father . Mattha e. 28. It is sufficient for vs , Iohan. 20. that Christe the Sonne of God is contente to cal vs his Brethren .

Ye haue Excommunicate vs , as the Ph●riseis did the Apostles , bicause wée speake vnto you in the name of Christe . But your owne Lawe saithe , Excommunica●us non poiest Excommunicate : He that is Excommunic●t him selfe , cannot geue Sentence to Excommunicate others : 11. Quae. 3. Cui est illata . And your owne Gelasius saithe . Mala. 2. Neminem ligate debet iniqua Sententia : A wicked Sentence ( of Excommunication ) bindeth noman . But before al others God him selfe saithe , Ego Benedicam Maledictionibus vestris : I wil Blesse , that you Curse , saithe the Lorde . You saie , you haue weighed our Reasons , and haue founde them too light . Now surely that is a good Light answeare . Euen in sutche Light sorte Iulianus the Apostata wrote sometime vnto the Christian Bishoppes : Sozomen . li. ● . Cap. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : I haue readde your reasons : I know them wel yenough : and therefore I haue condemned them . But the same Christian Bishoppes answeared him againe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . It may be , ye haue readde our reasons : but ye vnderstoode them not . For if ye vnderstoode them , ye would not condemne them . 1. Corin. 2. As S. Paule also likewise saithe , Nam si cognouissent , nunquam Dominum Gloriae crucifixissent : Yf they had knowen , they would neuer haue Crucified the Lord of Glorie .

But vnto many of your side , M. Hardinge , I feare me wée may ouer truely say as S. Hilarie saithe vnto the Arian Heretiques : Hilar. De Synodis aduersus Arianos . Verè Deum nesciunt : atque vtinam n●scirent : Cum procliuiori enim venia ignorarent : In deede they know not God : and would God they kn●w him not : Then theire ignorance were the easier to be pardoned .

You saie , There is no Disputation to be had with Heretiques . Yet your Fathers in the Councel of Basile , Concil Basil . Concil. Trident. and your Frendes in the last Councel of Trident , I wil not say , had Disputations , but certainely yelded , and gaue place vnto the Bohemiens , & vnto sutche others , as you cal Heretiques . But ye haue reason : ye can foresée your best aduantage . It were the readiest way to disclose your shame You neuer yet càme to Disputation , but some of your companie shranke away from you , As I before haue reported out of Tertullian : Tertull. in Apologetico . Veritas nihil veretur , 1. Regum . 5. nisi abscondi : Truthe feareth nothing , but lest shee be hid . If the God of Israel come into the Temple , the Idole of Dagon must needes fal downe .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 1.

But bicause he hath already so noted vs openly , lest by holdinge our peace we should seeme to graunt a fault , and specially bicause we can by no meanes haue audience in the Publike assemblie of the General Councel , wherin he would no creature should haue power to geue his voice , or to declare his opinion , excepte he were sworne , and straightly bounde to mainteine his Authoritie : For we haue had good experience hereof , in the last Conference at the Councel of Irident : where the Embassadours & Diuines of the Princes of Germanie , and of the free Cities , were quite shut out from theire companie . Neither can we yet forgeate , how Iulius the thirde , aboue tenne yeres past , prouided warely by his write , that none of our fort should be suffered to speake in the Councel , excepte that there were some man peraduenture , that would recante , & chaunge his opinion . For this cause chiefly we thought it good , to yelde vp an accoumpte of our Faith in writtinge , & truely and openly to make answeare to those thinges , wherewith we haue ben openly charged : to the end the worlde maye see the partes & fundations of that Doctrine , in the behalfe wherof so many good men haue litle regarded theire owne liues . And that al men may vnderstand what manner of people they be , & what opinion they haue of God & of Religion , whom the Bishop of Rome , before they were called to tel theire tale , hath condemned for Heretiques , without any good consideration , without any example , and vtterly without Lawe or right : onely bicause he heard tel , that they did dissente from him and his in some pointe of Religion .

M. Hardinge .

Ye alleage t'woo causes , The first is , lest by holding your peace , ye should seeme to graunte a fault . The second , Two causes of making the Apologie . which ye make more specialie because by no meanes ye could haue audience in the late general Councel . Your second cause is false , as hereafter it shal be shewed . Your first is naught , as that which sheweth youre pride , vaine glorie , and pertinacie . Wel . ye do but as Heretikes before you haue euer done . It must not be looked for at your handes , I● Councels any man may shewe his opinion , but none maye geue a voice , or suffrage , and Sentence Definitiue , but onely Bishoppes . that ye acknowlege any fault . For that were Humilitie , which vertue al Heretikes be farre from &c. To geue a voice or suffrage , and vtter Sentence definitiue it perteineth onely to Bishops . Now ye be no Bishops , but some of you mere laie men , and most of you Apostates .

Whether the Ambassadours and Diuines of the Princes of Getmanie and of the free Citties there . were at any time vpon any consideration of their misliked demeanour , or for any other iust cause restrained from the companie of the Fathers in the late general Councel at Tren● : Againe whether Pope Iulius the third prouided by any write that none of your sort should be suffred to speake in the Councel , the cause of recantation excepted : what ye say touching this mater , because ye say it without proufe . We haue found you in so many other pointes of greater importance so farre to steppe aside from truth . that for this we cannot beleue you . But that your selues by no meanes could haue audience in the Councel at Trent , and that the Ambassadours and Diuines of the Princes and free Citties of Germanie were from thence quite shutte out : Three safe Conduites graunted An accoumpt of faithe by the Defenders yelded vp in writing , without due order in al respectes . how true that is . I reporte me to the three safe conductes . whiche the three Popes , vnder whom that Councel was holden , graunted forth and confirmed in that behalfe . Wherfore belie the councel nomore , complaining that ye coulde not there haue audience and be heard .

Ye yeld vp an accoumpt of your faithe in writing , ye say . But to whom doe ye yeld it vp ? and by whom is it yelded ? from whom commeth the same ? Do ye acknowlege no lauful ●udge , no lauful consiliorie in the whole world ? Committe ye your whole mater to the temeritie of the people ? Why haue ye not set your names to the Booke , that conteineth the profession of your faithe , and of your whole conscience .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge thought it answeare sufficient , to vpbraide vs with suspicion of Untruthe . How be it I haue no doubte , but both the Truthe , and the Untruthe by the particulares wil soone appeare .

First , that al Bishoppes , hauing voice Definitiue , and interest in Councelles , are solemnely sworne in al theire Decrées , & Canons to vphold the Authoritie of the Pope , he thought it the wisest way to dissemble it . For it had ben great wante of modestie , to denie it . The fourme of the othe recorded in the Popes owne Decretalles , Extra . De Iureiuran . Ego N. is this ; Ego N. &c. Papa●um Romanae Ecclesiae , & regulas Sanctorum Patrum adiutor no ad defendendum , & retinendum , saluo ordine meo , contra omnes homines : IN. sweare , that I wil be an helper , to defende , and mainteine the Papacie of the Churche of Rome , and the Rules of the Holy Fathers ( the Popes ) mine owne order saueds , against ol men aliue . But these Rules , & Priuileges of the Holy Fathers the Popes are these : a a Extra . de Elect. & Electi potest . Singificasti . That the Pope is aboue al General Councelles : b b Extra . de transta . Episcopi , Quanto : In gloss . That his bare wil must be holden as a lawe : c c Extra . de Concess . Praben . Proposuit . In gloss . That , what so euer he doo , noman may say vnto him , why doo you thus : d d Pighius . Li. 6. Cap. 13. That his iudgement is more certaine , then the iudgement of al the worlde : e e 9. q. 3. Nemo . In glossa . That if the whole world geue Sentence in any mater contrarie to the Popes pleasure , yet it séemeth , we are bound to stand to the Iudgement of the Pope : & , f f M. Hardinge , Fol. 334. b. as M. Hardinge saithe , That the Pope , what so euer he saie , or doo , as beinge Pope , can neuer erre , These , & other the like be the Priuileges , that the Pope claimeth vnto him selfe . Al which the Bishoppes are bound by oths . & by theire allegeance to defend against al menne aliue .

Now , where you say , that Bishoppes onely haue Sentence Definitiue in the Councel , ye seeme willingly , & without cause to reporte Untruthe . For Pius Secundus being him selfe a Pope , would haue tolde you the contrarie . These be his woordes : g g Aeneas Sylui. de gestis Concil. Constantien . Li. 1. Apparet , alios , quam Episcopos , in Concilijs habuisse vocem decidentem : It is plaine , that certaine others biside Bishoppes , had voice Definitiue in the Councelles . Likewise saithe Gerson . h h Iohan. Gerson , Quae veritates sint Credendae . Corol. 4. Etiam ad Laicos hoc potest extendi : & plus aliquando , quàm ad multos Clericorum : This ( Priuilege of geuing Sentence in Councel ) may be extended euen vnto y●●aye sort : yea and that oftentimes better then vnto many Priestes . But here of herafter 〈◊〉 at large .

But whether we be Bishoppes or no , M. Harding is no competent , nor indisserent Iudge . For i i Sallust . in bell● Catilin . who so wil Iudge vprightly , must be voide of anger , hatred loue , enuie , & other like affections . Whiche Sentence being otherwise profane , is vsed & halowed by the Apostolique Legates in the k k Concil. Iriden . sub Paulo . 3. Councel of Trident : Surely the Godly say , that , as your Bishoppes doo no part of Bishoppes dewtie , & therefore in déede are no Bishoppes at al : so your late Couente at Trident , what so euer glorious name it pleaseth you to geue it , yet notwithstanding , in déede , & verily was no Councel .

Whether Pope Iulius by his Bulie vtterly embarred the Diuines , & Embassadours of the Princes , and frée Citties of Germanie from al audience , & Disputation in the Councel , or no , I report me to Pope Iulius owne Bulle touching the same . His woordes be these , Breue Iulij . 3. Citatur à Caluino . Eri● Concilium , vt qui temerè loquuti sunt , aut dicta recantat●●i veniant , aut eorum maudita causa , in executionem iam ordinatarum . Constitutionum Haeretici declarentur , & condemnenturi There shal be a Councel , that they th●● haue spoken rashly , either may recante theire saieinges , or els without farther hearing , or reasoning of the mater , they may be denounced and condemned for Heretiques , according to the Constitutions already mode .

Likewise saithe Iohn Sleidane , Iohan Sleidan . touchinge the Conference had some time at Augusta : Lib. 13. In Colloquio frequenter ad initium actionis hoc dicebantinolle se vel tantillum de Opinione , & Doctrina sua decedere : sed quicquid facerent , eo fieri , vt in sententiam suàm nos adducerent : In the Conference that was had bitwene vs , and them , they told vs at the firste . that they would not yelde one whit , from theire Opinion , and Doctrine : But that , what so euer they did , they did it onely to the intent , to bring vs to theire Judgement .

I could farther allege Matthias Flacius Illyricus , Iohannis Fabritius Montanus , Petrus Paulus Vergerius the Bishop of Iustinopolis , to like purpose . But perhaps M. Hardinge would refuse theire Authorities , & cal them partial . Yet in a mater so euident , & so openly knowen , it had ben great folie for them to dissemble . Illyricus saithe , Illyri . in Recusatione Con. Tritini . Nostri audiri non potuerunt , quamuis id Amplissimi Caesaris Legati Orarent : Our Diuines , and Oratours coulde is no wise bee hearde , notwithstandinge the Emperours moste woorthie Embassadours hadde desired it . Iohannes Fabritius saithe , Councel of Trident . Fateor extensionem fuctam esse ad alias nationes : Iohan. Fabriti . Sed tamen additur , eam formam non nisi ad illos pertine●e , qui resipiscere , & ad Ecclesiae gremium redire velint : I graunt , the Saue conduite was extended to other Nations : But it is added withal , that the same fourme , or libertie should perteine to none others , but onely to them , that would repe●te , and returne to the bosome of the Churche , And againe he saith , Tantum aburant ab A●ce Disputation̄ , vt ne ad vestibulum quidem accedere potuerint : The Diuines of the Princes of Germanie were kept so for of from the high Castel of Disputation , that they could not be suffered to approche to the entrie . Petr. Paulus Nergerius De Concil Trident Petrus Paulus Uergerius saithe , that the Bishop of Uegla in Dalmatia was 〈◊〉 shaken vp in the same 〈◊〉 , and threatened with Depriuation , and other extremities , onely for a litle in●ling of the Truthe .

Now d● it , what 〈…〉 Authorities ? Noman is herein so plaine and 〈…〉 , M. Hard fo. 20. M. Hardinge him selfe . M. H. fo. 〈◊〉 . b. This is his determinate answeare , M. H. fo. 174. a. and ful resolution in the case : M. H. fo. 333. b. Your reason 〈◊〉 no more to be hearde , onlesse ye repente , and 〈◊〉 your errours ▪ Againe , Our doctrine hath ben approued too longeth be put a 〈◊〉 in these daies . Againe , ●●●●che wicked 〈◊〉 , as ye haue made ie , it is lanful , to make , neither 〈…〉 Councel , not without Councel . Againe , we tel you , that your change of religion , and 〈…〉 Heresies ought not be haue benne 〈◊〉 , nor without the Bishop of 〈◊〉 commanndemente , nor with his commaundemente . These be your woordes , M. Hardinge : This you say , you tel vs plainely●and therefore , I trowe , we must beleue you . And so ye séeme to conclude with the woordes written in the P●●yhete Hieremie : Hieremi . 44 Non audiemus Verbum , quod loquissus es nobis in nomine Domini sed faciendo faciemus omne verbum , quod egredietur ex o●e nost●● : We wil not beare the Woorde , that thou hast spoken to vs in the name of the Lorde : But we wil doo euery Woord , that shal come from our owne mouthe .

Was may therefore say of you , Augustin . Epis●ola . ●52 . 〈…〉 Augustine sometimes saide of the Heretiques the Donatistes : Cùm omnis 〈◊〉 suspensa expectares , in tanta collectione quid 〈…〉 ageretu● : Quare hoc ? nisi quia causam suam malam sciebant , & facillime se posse conuin●i , si ageretur , dubitare non poterant ? When euery body was looking carefully , what should be doone in so great Assemblie , they ( The Donatistes Heretiques ) laboured what they could , that nothing vtterly should be doone . And why for They knew●theire cause was n●ught : and could not doubte , but that if any conference , or Disputation should be had , they should soone be reproued .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 2.

And although S. Hierome would haue no body to be patient when he is suspected of Heresie , yet we wil deale herein neither bitterly , nor brablingly , nor yet be caried away with angre & heate : though he ought to be reckened neither bitter , nor brabler that speaketh the Truth . We willingly leaue this kind of eloquence to our Aduersaries , who , what so euer they say against vs , be it neuer so shrewdly or despitefully said , yet thinke , it is said modestly & comely yenough , & care nothing whether it be true , or false . We neede none of these shiftes , which do maintaine the Truthe . Further , if we do shewe it plainely that Gods Holy Gospel , the Auncient Bishoppes , and the Primitiue Churche do wake on our side , & that we haue not without iust cause left these men , & rather haue returned to the Apostles & olde Catholique Fathers : And i● we shal be founde to do the same , not colourably or craftily , but in good Faith before GOD , Truely , Honestly , Cleerely , and Plainely : and if they theim selues whiche flie our Doctrine , and would bee called Catholiques , shal manifestly see , howe al these titles of Antiquitie , whereof they boaste so mutche , are quite shaken out of their handes , and that there is more pith in this our cause , then they thought for : we then hope and trust that none of them wil be so negligent & carelesse of his owne Saluation , but he wil at length studie & bethinke him selfe , to whether parte he were best to ioine him . Vndoubtedly excepte one wil altogeather harden his hart , and refuse to heare , he shal not repent him to geue good heede to this our Defence , and to marke wel , what we saie , and how truely and iustly it agreeth with Christian Religion .

M. Hardinge .

I see wel , we must looke to your fingers . Ye spit foorth your gal , and cholar by and by at the first . Through your whole Booke in woorde ye pretend Truthe , zeale , plainnes , and sober dealing : But in deede power out litle other then Lieing , Spite , Scoffes , and immoderate railing . The effecte of the rest in this : Ye haue ioined your selues to the Synagog of Antichriste . Ye serue the stage , ye haue begonnt to playe your Tragedie on falsely , shamefully , darkely , and guilefully : your bragges , and promises , your crakes of Goddes Holy woorde , your errours , your Heresies , your contagious poison , your sclaunders , your newe Cleregies Doctrine , &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Saieing of S. Hierome is auouched by the like Saiyng of Ruffinus an Auncient writer . Thus he saithe . Vnam notam Haereseos qui dissimulat , non est Christianus : Who so dissembleth , when he is called Heretique , is no Christian man . For the rest blame me not , good Christian Reader , yf I vse no moe woordes , then néede requireth . If I thought it woorthy the while , I could answeare al these thinges more at large . I trust , in our whole Apologie there appeareth no sutche immoderate kinde of railing . But if I should folow M. Hardinges humoure , and write but the one halfe of that he writeth , then perhappes I might woorthily be called a railer .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 2.

For where they cal vs Heretiques , it is a crime so hainous , that onlesse it maie be seen , vnlesse it may be felt , & in manner may be holden with handes & fingers , it ought not lightly to be iudged or beleued , when it is laied to the charge of any Christian . For Heresie is a forsaking of Saluation , a renouncing of Gods Grace , a departing from the Body and Sprite of Christe .

M. Hardinge .

The Definition ye seeme to make of Heresie , is not sufficient . For as ye define it , so euery deadly sinne is Heresie . The Defenders Definition of Heresie founde insufficient . The true Definition of Heresie . For euery deadly sinne is a forsaking of Saluation , a renouncing of Gods Grace , a departing from the Body and Sprite of Christe . Heresie is a false Doctrine against the right beleefe , by him that professeth the Faithe stubbournly either auouched or called in doubte . In which Definition this woorde , stubbournly , is added , bicause it is not errour onely in those thinges that be of Faithe , but stubbournes in errour , that maketh an Heretike , as S. Augustine teacheth . Who ( saithe he ) in the Church of Christe sauer any thing that is vnholsome and crooked , if being sharply admonished to sauer that is hole and right , they resist stubbournly , and wil not amend their venemous and deadly Doctrines , but stande to defend them , the● be Heretikes . But now the lawe of vpright dealing specially in Gods cause so requiring , Lib. 18. de Ciui● Dei , cap. 51. ye must pardon vs . if , as among husbandmen we cal a rake , a rake , a spade , a spade , a mattocke , a mattocke : so among Diuines , we cal Heresie , heresie , and likewise , falsehed , lieing , sclaundering , crafte , hypocrisie , Apostasie , malice . blasphemie , euery such crime , by his proper name without al glosing .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Ye saie , This is not the right Definition of Heresie . Verily , M. Hardinge , this is but a simple quarrel . It was not my minde in this place to vtter any Definition of Heresie , either right , or wronge . You knowe right wel , that sutche curiositie in this kinde of writinge is not néedeful . It is sufficient , our woordes be true , although they include no Definition .

For iust proufe of Heresie three thinges necessarily are required . First , that it be an errour : Secondly , that it be an errour againste the Truthe of Goddes woorde : For otherwise euery errour maketh not an Heresie . Thirdly , that it be stoutly , and wilfully maineteined . Otherwise an errour in Goddes Truthe without wilful mainteinance , is not an Heresie . S. Augustine saith , Errare possum , Haereticus esse non possum : Augustinus . In an errour I may be : but an Heretique I cannot be .

It was not so necessarie in this mater , so precisely to séeke vp Definitions . I thought it sufficient , onely to declare the horrour of Heresie . For as touchinge the Definition , S. Augustine saithe , Quid sit Haeresis , regulari quadam Definitione comprehendi , sicut ego existimo , aut omnino non potest , Augustin . ad Quoduultdeum aut difficillim● potest : To expresse by orderly Definition , what thinge maketh an Heretique , as I iudge , it is either impossible , or very harde . Therefore you , M. Hardinge , and your felowes are the more blame woorthy , for that of euery your fantasies ye haue made an Heresie . Ludouicus Viues one of your owne Schoole thus complaineth thereof : Ludouicus viues De Corrupt . Artib Haeresis nomen rebus leuissimis impingitur : Dis. 22. Omnes . Idem facerent Scotistae de Thomistis , nisi Scholarum consuetudo aures emolliuisses : The name of Heresie is laide vpon euery light mater . So would the Scotistes handle the Thomistes : sauinge that the custome of the Schooles hath brought theire eares in vre . Thus Pope Nicolas saithe , Qui Romanae Ecclesiae Priuilegium auferte conatur , hic procul dubio labi●ur in Haeresim : Who so euer goeth about to abrogate the priuilege of the Churche of Rome , be no doubte is an Heretique .

That ye speake of stubbernenesse in defence of Heresie , I praye God , M. Hardinge , it doo not ouer neare touche your selfe . I praye God , you doo not wilfully defende that thinge , wherein you knowe , and sée manifest , and open errour . Verily S. Hierome saithe : ●4 . Quaest. 3. Haeresis est . Quicunque aliter Scripturam intelligit , quàm sensus Spiritus Sancti flagitat , quo scripta est , licet ab Ecclesia non recesserit , tamen Haereticus appellari potest : Who so euer expoundeth the Scriptures otherwise , then the sense of the Holy Ghoste , by whome they were written , dothe require , although he be not yet departed from the Churche , yet maye he wel be called an Heretique . Likewise the old Father Tertullian saithe : Quicquid contra veritatem sapit , Haeresis est , etiam vetus Consuetudo : What so euer thinge ●●uoureth against the Truthe , Tertull. de virginib . velandis . Vdalri●us Augustanus Ipiscopus ad Nicola . Papam . it is an Heresie , be it neuer so mutche an old custome . Hilari . de Trinitate , Li. 6.

Likewise your Tyrannical and filthy restraininge of Priestes lauful mariage , Vdalricus the Bishop of August a calleth Periculosum Haeresis Decretum : A dangerous Decree of Heresie .

Nowe touchinge simple errour , and wilful defence , S. Hilary saithe , Illis in eo , quod nesciunt , potest adhuc in tuto esse salus , si credant : Tibi verò iam omnia ad salutem clausa sunt , qui negas , quod iam ignorare no● potes : They , for so mutche as they knowe not the Truthe , maye haue theire saluation in safetie , if afterwarde they beleeue : But al hope of health is shut from thee , for as mutche as thou deniest that thinge , that thou canste not chuse but knowe .

To conclude , vnto you , M. Hardinge , who oftentimes of smal errours , oftentimes of vndoubted , & knowen Truthes ▪ without regard of Definition haue fansied great , Alphonsus de Castro de H●re . Li. 1. Ca. 7. & horrible Heresies , Alphonsus de Castro a Doctour of your owne saith thus : Idcirco sit , vt hi , qui tam leuiter de Haeresi pronunciant , non expendentes de qua re loquantur , saepe sua ipsorum sagitta feriantur , incidantque in eam foueam , quam alijs parabant . Nam velle humanas Scripturas in Diuinarum ordinem connumerare , hoc veriùs ego dixerim Haeresim : quod faciunt hi , qui humanis Scriptis diffentire impium autumant , perinde ac Diuinis : There fore it happeneth , that they , that so rashly pronounce , and cal euery thing Heresie , not considering wherof they speake , be often striken with their own dart , and fal into the same pit , that them selues haue digged for others . For this would I rather cal Heresie , to accoumpt men● writinges emonges the Scriptures of God . So doo they , that thinke it a wicked mater to dissent from the writinges of man , nolesse , then if it were the Judgement of God .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 3.

But this was euer an olde and solemne propertie with them & their forefathers : if any did complaine of their errours and faultes , and desired to haue true Religion restored , streight waie to condemne sutche for Heretiques , as men new fangled , and factious . Christe for no other cause was called a Samaritane , but onely for that he was thought to haue fallen to a certaine new Religion , and to be the authour of a new secte . And Paule the Apostle of Christe , was called before the Iudges , Act. 24. to make answeare to a mater of Heresie : and therefore he saide : Accordinge to this way , whiche they cal Heresie , I doo worship the God of my Fathers , beleeuinge althinges whiche be written in the Lawe , and in the Prophetes .

M. Hardinge .

Yf ye meane Hus , Hierome of Prague , Wickle● , Almaricke , Abailard , the Apostolikes , Peterbrusians , Berengarians , The Defenders predecessours Waldenses , Albingenses , Imagebreakers , or suche like , which euer founde faulte with the Churche in their time , and cried for a restoringe of Religion , as though it had ben quite lost , and would them selues haue the glory of it by bringing in their Heresie in place of the Catholique Doctrine , vnder the name of Goddes woorde , whiche hath alwaies ben the propertie of al Heretikes : if , I say , ye meane these , or any of these : we also cal them Heretikes , and for such wee condemne them .

But Sirs ye forget your selues fouly . Contradiction founde in the defenders . How agreeth this with that ye saie hereafter oftentimes , that the Light of the Truthe was quite put out , and that Luther and Zuinglius first brough the Gospel abroade into the worlde ?

Were it true that Christe was called a Samaritane for the cause ye assigne , thereof what conclude ye ? We see where about ye go . Ye woulde seeme to ioine with Christ , with Paule , and with the first Christians . But truely they refuse your companie .

But we tel you , Samaritane . Christ was the true Samaritane in deede , Iohan. 8. that is to say , the Keeper , as he that is Keeper of mankinde : and therefore he shunned not the name . Yet was he not a Samaritane as the Iewes ment . Paule likewise , ( who was not as ye say , to speake properly , called before the Iudges to make ausweare to a mater of Heresie ) being accused to Felix by Tertullus that he was of the secte or Heresie of the Nazarens ( so were the Christians first called ) did not onely not denie , Act. 24. but openly confessed , that according to that way or state of life , which the Iewes called a secte or Heresie , he worshipped God . Heresie . For it is to be considered that in those times the name of Heresie was not so infamous , as it may be iudged by the place of the Actes , cap. 5. onlesse somewhat be added whereby it may be vnderstanded to be taken in rate of a vice , as , 1. Cor. 11. Galat. 5. So the woorde was then indifferent , and might be taken in good part , or euil part . Tertullian vseth it in good part , where speaking of the Christians , he calleth them Sectam , Apologeti . C● . 21. Secta . a Secte , into which Latine woord the Greeke woorde Heresis is turned . Now these examples of Christ , Paule , and the first Christians , serue not your defence . Christ was called of the Iewes a Samaritane vnwoorthely after the sense of their thought : Ye are called Heretikes , woorthely . Paule burdened with the name of Heresie , for as muche as thereby was signified the kinde of life of those that beleeued in Christ , the woorde being indifferent , was honoured rather then reutled . And Tertullian calleth the Christian people a Secte ( as he might ) without blemishe or note of any euil , Your case is not like : For ye are charged with Heresie , as it is taken in the worst part .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O howe many waste woordes hath M. Hardinge to spare ? Here once againe he comneth in with Hus , Hierome of Prage , Wicklefe , Almarik , Abailard , Apostolikes , Peterbrusians , Berengarians , Waldenses , Albingenses , Image-breakers , to fraye his simple reader with a terrour of strange names . Wée saie , Luther and Zuinglius were the first Publishers of the Gospel : and yet againe we saie , the same Luther and Zuinglius were not the firste : Wée haue forgotten our selues fouly : Wée write contradiction against our selues : Wée would séeme to toine with Christe and Paule : but truely they refuse our companie : And so foorthe , I knowe not what .

verily , M. Hardinge , wée neuer saied , Luther , and Zuinglius were the firste Publishers of the Gospel . Yf wée should so saie , wée should reporte vntruthe , as you doo often . Christe , and his Apostles were the firste .

These woorthy , and Learned Fathers , Luther , and Zuinglius , and other like Godly and zelous men , were appointed of God , not to erecte a newe Churche , but to reforme the olde , whereof you had made a Caue of Théeues : to kendle againe the Light , that you had quenched : and to heare witnesse to the Truthe of GOD .

You saie , Christ , and Paule wil none of our companie : as if you were priuie of theire counsel . But perhappes , M. Hardinge , this is Clauis errans , and therefore can neither open , Hieronym . in . 16 Ca. Matthae . nor shutte : Or , Iohan. 14. as S. 1. Pet. 2. Hierome saithe , Pars aliqua supercilij Pharisaici , some parte of the high lookes of the Phariseis . Christe him selfe hath saide , Who so loueth me , wil keepe my woorde : and my Father loueth him : And my Father , and I wil come to him , and dwel with him . S. Peter saithe , Who so trusteth in him , shal not be confounded .

Of Abailard , and Almarik , and certaine other your strange names , wée haue no skil : They are none of ours . Of Iohn Hus , Hierome of Prage , and Berengarius , and other like vertuous Learned men , wée haue no cause to be ashamed . Theire Doctrine standeth stil , and encreaseth daily : bicause it is of God . But as for yours , bicause it is onely of your selues , therefore it falleth daily , and is now forsaken the worlde through .

You saie , that the simple namè of Secte , or Heresie , wherewith S. Paule was charged , was not so infamous , or odious in those daies : and that Tertullian called the Religion of Christe a Secte , or Heresie without any manner blemmishe or note of euil . It was néedelesse for M. Harding , to auouche Vntruthe so earnestly without cause .

I graunte , the name of Heresie , or Secte emonge the Philosophers was not infamous . Cicer. in Paradox . Cicero saithe , Cato in ea Haeresi est , quae nullum sequitur florem Orationis . But in case of Religion it was euermore emongst al men taken in il parte , and condemned , and coumpted odious . Touchinge S. Paule , in howe good parte the Iewes called him Heretique , Actor . 24. it may easily appeare by these woordes of Tertullus his accuser : Inuenimus hunc virum pestilentem , & mouentem seditionem omnibus Iudaeis per vniuersum orbem , ac Principem Sectae Nazaraeorum : We haue founde this man to be a Pestilent , and a wicked felowe , mouinge sedition emonge the Jewes throughout the whole worlde , and a Captaine of the Heresie of the Nazareines . In sutche good parte they saide vnto Christe : Iohan. 7. Arte thou greater then was our Father Abraham : Thou arte a false Prophete , Iohan. 8. and deceiuest the People : Thou arte a Samaritane , and hast the Diuel .

The like good parte Christ promised afore hande to his Disciples : Iohan 16. They shal caste you out of theire Synagoges : Matth. 1● . Ye shal be hated of al men for my names sake . In sutche good parte and meaninge was S. Paule called an Heretique . And so , M. Hardinge , Nicola Lyra in 24. Cap. Actor . bisides others , your owne Doctour Nicolaus Lyra would soone haue tolde you .

But muche more I marueile , ye should so vnaduisedly saye , that Tertullian called the Christian people a Secte , Christian Faithe called Heresie . or Heresie in good parte , and , as you saye , without any blemishe , or note of euil . For the same . Tertullian in the same Apologie saithe , the Heathens commonly called the Christians , Incestos , Homicidas , Infanticidas , Tertull. in Apologetico . Sacrilegos , Pessimos , Nocentissimos , Publicum odium , Hostes humani generis , Omnium Scelerum reos : Deorum , Imporatorum , Legum , Morum , Naturae totius inimicos : Aduouterours against kinde , Mankillers , killers of Children , Churcherobbers , moste wicked , moste husteful , the publique hatred , the enemies of Mankinde , guiltie of al kinde of wickednesse : Enimies against the Goddes , against the Emperours , against the Lawes , against good order , against Nature it selfe . Tertull. in Apologetico . Where so euer they sawe them , they made an outcrie vpon them , Christianos ad Leonem : Non licet esse Christianos : Haue these Christians to the Lion : It is not lawful , these Christians shoulde liue . So S. Augustine saithe , August . De Ciuitate , li. 2. ca. 3. Eujeb . li. 4. ca. 18. Factum est vulgi Prouerbium , Pluuia defecit cause Christianorum : It is nowe become a common Prouerbe emonge the people , our raine faileth vs , bicause of these Christians . So Eusebius saithe , the Religion of Christe was called Impiorum Christianorum Haeresis : The Heresie of the Godlesse Christians . These woordes , M. Hardinge , I trowe , were neuer vttered without al manner blemishe , and note of euil . S. Hierome saithe , Quod magis mirum sit , Hieronym . in Epist. ad Titum ▪ Cap. 3. etiam illud de Actibus Apostolorum videtur esse relegendum , Fidem nostram in Christum , & Ecclesiasticam Disciplinam iam tunc à peruersis hominibus Haeresim nuncupatam : And that wee maye the more marueile , wee maye once againe reade this place of the Actes of the Apostles : where we finde , that the Christian Faithe , and Ecclesiastical Discipline was euen then of wicked menne called on Heresie .

Euen as rightly , M. Hardinge , and vpon as good groundes , you haue againe this daye condemned the same Gospel of Christe , and in ans good parte , & meaninge haue called it Heresie . But wée maye truely , and simply saye with S. Paule , Actor . 24. Accordinge to this Secte , whiche you calle Heresie , wee woorship the God of our Fathers , whiche is the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 1.

But the more sore , and outragious a crime Heresie is , the more it ought to be proued by plaine & stronge argumentes , especially in this time , when menne beginne to geue lesse credite to theire woordes , & to make more diligent searche of their Doctrine , then thei were wonte to doo . For the people of God are otherwise instructed nowe , then they were in times paste , when al the Bishoppes of Romes Saieinges were allowed for Gospel , and when al Religion did depende onely vpon theire Authoritie . Nowe a dayes the Holy Scripture is abroade , the writinges of the Apostles and Prophetes are in Printe : whereby al Truthe and Catholique Doctrine maye be prooued , and al Heresie maye be disproued and confuted .

M. Hardinge .

Where ye require your Heresie , for so muche as it is so hainous a crime , The Defenders Heresies sufficiently and fully confuted alreadie by sundrie greate Clerkes . Lanfrancus . Guimundus . Petrus Cluoiacensis . by plaine and stronge are gumentes to be prooued : it is not vnfoowen how sufficiently and substantially that is perfoormed already by men of excellent learninge , as wel of this age , as of times paste . Was not Berengarius , the first Author of your Sacramentarie Heresie ? by most plaine and stronge argumentes confuted of Lanfrancus B. of Canturbury , and Guinundus B. of Auersa ? Were not the Peterbrusians so , whose Heresie ye holde against the Blessed Sacrifice of the Masse , of the learned Abbot Petrus Cluniaccensis ? Was not Wicklef so of Thomas Walden , a learned man of Englande ? hathe not Luther and Oeclampadius benne so confuted in our time , of that Holy and learned Father Bishop Fisher ?

But whatshal I speake of particular men , Tho. Walden . B. Fisher . were they newer so excellent , by whome they haue benne confuted , sithe by Publike sentence of the Churche they haue bene condemned , bothe in General and Prouincial Councels ? Scriptures and Doctours . Therefore we thinke it not noede no we againe to prooue your doctrine , so sufficiently condemnèd , to be Heresie . That the people be no we otherwise instructed , then they were in times paste , we confesse . But whether better nowe , then in our Forefathers dayes , they that can consider the liues of them no we , and of them that were then , maye easily Indge .

The saieinges of the Bishop of Rome were neuer allowed for the Gospel . His priuate sayinges and common talke might be erroneous , In whatcase the Popes sayinges are to be taken for Truthe . Luc● . 22. notesse then other mennes But what he saith by waie of iudgement and sentence definitiue in doubteful pointes touchinge Religion , suche saieinges of Peters successour ( for whome Christe prayed , that his Faithe might not faile , and who was commaunded by Christe to strengthen his Brethren ) we take for Truthe , and the same obediently receiue . So the Fathers assembled in Councel at Chalcedon , Vntruthe . receiued and agreed to the sayinge and writinge of Pope Leo , nolesse then if Peter the Apostle and firste Bishop of Rome him selfe had spoken . The Popes auctoritie we acknowledge Supreme aboue al other auctoritie in Earthe , touchinge the gouernement of the Churche : Vntruthe : yet was it neuer saide , ne thought by the Catholiques , that al Religion depended onely thereon , as your sclaunderous reporte beareth menne in hande .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Lanfrancus , Euimondus , Abbas Cluniacensis , Thomas Waldensis , Iohn Fisher , and other your like Doctours , M. Hardinge , are ouer yonge , al within the space of this laste fiue hundred yéeres , far vnlike S. Augustine , S. Hierome , S. Ambrose , S. Chrysostome , and others the Ancient Learned Fathers , & Doctours of the Churche . Neither is there any sufficient cause to the contrarie , but that Berengarius , Iohn Wicklefe , Iohn Hus , Doctour Luther , Zwinglius , Oecolampadius , & others , either for Learninge , or for Truthe , or for Iudgement in the Scriptures , or for Antiquitie maye wel & safely be compared with them . At the least I hope wée maye saie of them , as S. Augustine once saide of the Doctours , & Fathers of his time : August . ad Fortunarian . Epis. 111. Neque quorumliber Disputationes , quamuis Catholicorum , & laudatorum hominum , velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus : vt nobis non liceat , salua honorificentia , quae illis debetur , aliquid in eorum Scriptis improbare , aut respuere : si fortè inuenerimus , quòd aliter selfserint ; quàm Veritas habet : Neither weigh wee the writinges of al meane , be they neuer , so woorthy , and Catholique , as wee weighe the Canonical Scriptures : but that , sauinge the reuerence that is dewe vnto them , we maye wislike , and refuse somewhat in their writinges , if we happen to finde , that they haue thought otherwise , then the Truthe maye beare . Likewise the Councelles , ye meane , are very Newe , & therefore beare the lesse authoritie , for that they be so many waies contrary to the Olde . Hereof hereafter more at large . Certainely , there is none of your errours so grosse and palpable , but by some of your late Councelles it hath benne confirmed . Therefore wee maye iustly saie to you , as S. Augustine sometime saide to Mariminus the Arian Heretique , August . contrae Maximin . Li. 3. Cap. 14. Nec ego Nicenam Synodum tibi , nec tu mihi Ariminensem debes , tanquam praeiudicaturus , obijcere . Scripturarum Authoritatibus , res cum re , causa cum causa , ratio cum ratione conceuer : Neither maye I saye to thee the Councel of Nice , nor maiste thou laye to mee the Councel of Ariminum , either of vs thinkinge thereby to finde preuidice against the other . But let vs laye mater to mater , cause to cause , and reason to reason , by the Authoritie of the Scriptures .

Ye graunte , there is more lighte and knowledge nowe , then was before . The greatter is either your faulte , or your folie , M. Hardinge , that in the broade daye , & open Lighte so busily set foorthe the woorkes of darkenesse . S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in Psalm . 9. Hic est multò impudentior . Ex furibus enim leges eos grauiùs puniunt , qui interdiu furantur : He is very shamelesse , that woorketh deceite in the open Lighte . For of al Theeues the Lawe moste sharpely punisheth them , that robbe in the daye time . Therefore S. Cyprian saithe vnto you : Ignosci poruit simpliciter erranti . Post inspirationem verò & reuelationem factam , Cyprian . qui in eo , quod errauerat , perseuerat prudens , & sciens , sine venia ignorantiae peccat . Praesumptione enim , atque obstinatione superatur : . He that is deceiued , Pope aboue Goddes Woorde . and erieth of simplicitie , maye be pordoned . But after that the Truthe is once reueled , who so continueth neuerthelesse in his former errour witingly and willingly , sinneth without pardonne of ignorance , as beinge ouercome by presumption , and wilfulnesse .

You saie , not withstandinge al this greate Light wée talke of , yet our liues are nothinge comparable to the liues of them that haue benne before vs . This , M. Hardinge , hathe euer benne an olde complainte in al ages , as maye appeare by S. Cyprian , Cyprian . ad Demetrianum . August . De Ciuita . Dei . Ecclesiastes . 7. S. Augustine , and other Ancient Fathers : It was a common Prouerbe in olde times , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Thinges a yéere paste are euermore better , then thinges presente . For euery thinge to vs séemeth the greatter , as it séemeth nearest to touche our senses . And bicause wée féele not our Fathers euilles , therefore wée imagine , they had no euil at al. The wise man saithe , Ne dixeris , quae causa est , quòd priora tempora meliora fuerint , quàm praesentia . Stulta enim est huiusmodi interrogatio : Neuer demaunde wherefore the times paste were better then the times presente . For in deede it is a foolishe question .

But , M. Hardinge , wherefore doo you thus condemne our liues in respecte of our Fathers ? Certainely you must néedes confesse , there are fewer blasphemies , fewer Othes , fewer breaches of Matrimonie , fewer Stewes , fewer Concubines , fewer Fraies , fewer Murthers emongst vs this daie , then commonly were at any time emonge our Fathers . How be it , to let our Fathers passe , if it shal please you to laye our liues to your liues , although we acknowledge many our imperfections , yet Goddes name be blessed , wee haue no cause to flee the comparison .

The Popes woordes , you saie , were neuer taken for Gospel : Yes , M. Hardinge , and somewhat also aboue the Gospel . For proufe whereof it maye please you to remember the woordes of certaine your late Doctours . Syluester Prieriâs late Ma●s●ter of Pope Leoes Palaice , Syluester Prieriâs , Contra Lutherum . writeth thus : Indulgentiae authoritate Scripturae non innotuere nobis : sed authoritate Ecclesiae Romanae , Romanorumque Pontificum , quae maior est : Pardonnes are not warrented vnto vs by the authoritie of Goddes Woorde : but by the authoritie of the Romaine Churche , and of the Bishoppes of Rome , whiche is more , then Goddes Woorde . Yf this be not sufficient , he addeth farther : A doctrina Romanae Ecclesiae , & Romani Pontificis Sacra Scriptura robur , & authbritatem trahit : The Hosy Scripture taketh strength , and authoritie of the Doctrine of the Bishop and Churche of Rome .

Cardinal Cusanus entituleth his Booke : Nicolaus Cusanus . De authoritate Ecclesiae , & Councilij supra , & contra Scripturam : Of the Authoritie of the Churche , and Councel aboue , and against the Scripture .

Your greatest Doctour Albertus Pigghius saithe , Albert. Pigghius , Hierarch . Lib 1. Cap. 2. Apostoli quaedam conscripserunt , non vt scripta illa praessene Fidei & Religioni nostrae , sed potius vt subessent : The Apostles wrote certaine thinges , not to the ende that sutche willinges shoulde he ouer our Faithe , and Religion : but rather , that they shoulde be vnder . Your Canonistes saie , a a 16. q. 1. Quicunque : In Clossa . a Papa potest dispensare cōira ius Diuinum : The Pope maye dispense against the Lawe of God : b b 15. q. 6. Authoritate . In Clossa . Papa potest dispensare contra Ius Naturae : The Pope maye dispense against the Lawe of Nature : c c Dist 34. Lector , & Dist 82 Presbyter . Papa potest dispensare contra Apostolum : The Pope maye dispense against S. Pause the Apostle : d d Abbas Panot . Extra . De Diuorijs . Cap. fin . Papa porest dispensare contra Nouum Testamentum : The Pope maye dispense againste the Newe Testamente : e e Summa Angel . in Dictione Papa . Papa potest dispensare de omnibus praeceptis veteris , & Noui Testamenti : The Pope maye dispense with al the Commaundementes bothe of the Olde , and also of the Newe Testamente . Hereof more hereafter , as farther occasion shal be offered .

These be your owne Doctours woordes , M. Hardinge : they be truely reported : they be no scalunders . And therefore Franciscus Zarabelia a Cardinal of Rome saithe thus : f f Franciscus Zarabella , De Sectis . 115. Persuaserunt Pontificibus , quòd omnia possent , & sic quòd facerent , quicquid liberet , etiam illicita , & sint plusquam Deus : They haue made the Popes beleeue that they might doo al thinges , what so euer they sisted , yea notwithstandinge they were thinges vnlawful ? and thus haue they made them more then God .

You saye , The Pope in his common talke maye be deceiued , and erre , as other menue maye : but in his Iudgemente Seate , and Sentence Definitiue of Religion be cannot erre : as if ye would saye , The Pope hath one Sprite in the Consistorie , & an other at home : mutche like , as one saide sometimes vnto Cicero in reproche of his inconstancie , Salust . in Cices ronem . Lucae , 22. Aliud stans , aliud sedens de Republica loqueris : Touchinge the Common Wease , ye haue one minde sittinge , and an other standinge .

But Christe saide vnto Peter , I haue praied for thee , that thy Faithe should not faile : Therefore , saye you , Wée receiue obediently , what so euer the Pope speaketh in place of Iudgemente . Hereby ye séeme to geue vs secretely to vnderstande , that Christes Praiers were auailable for the Pope , to kéepe him from errour , not in the Churche , or Pulpite , or Closet , or any other common , or Priuate place , but onely in the Consistorie , and Councel , in debatinge doubteful cases of Religion .

But how holdeth this arguments ? Christe praied for Peter , that his Faithe should not faile : Augustin . in Quaesti . Noui Tesla . Quae. 75. Iohan. 17. Ergo , the Pope cannot erre . Verily S. Augustine saithe , Nunquid pro Petro rogabat : pro Iohanne , & lacobo non rogabat ? Vt de coeteris taceamus : What did Christe praie for Peter : and did be not praie for Iohn , and Iames ? I wil not speake of the reste . Neither did Christe praie for Peter onely , or for the Apostles , but , for al the Faithful , that euer should be : as him selfe saithe , I praie not onely for them , but also for al them , that through theire preachinge shal beleue in mée .

How be it , what , saithe M. Hardinge , he so obediently receiueth the Popes Decrees ? Yewis , the Popes them selues wil not so receiue them . Platyna saithe , Acta Priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices aut infringunt , Platyna in Stephano , & in Romano . aut omninò tollunt . Nihil enim aliud isti Pontificuli cogitabant , quàm vt nomen , & dignitatem maiorum suorum extinguerent : The nexte Pope either breaketh , or vtterly repeaseth his Predecessours Decrees . For these litle petie Popes had none other studie to busie them selues withal , but onely to deface the name and dignitie of the former Popes .

Where you saye , The whole Councel of Chalcedon so estéemed the voice of Pope Leo , as if it had benne the voice of Peter him selfe , this , M. Hardinge , is a manifest Vntruthe , as it shal soone appeare . I graunte , the name of Leo , for his greate learninge , and granitie was mutche regarded . So. S. Ambrose for the like cause was called , Athanas . ad Heronem . Sozomen . Lib. 1. Cap. 23. Orbis terrarum oculus , Sacerdotum Archisacerdos , & Fundamentum Fidei : The Eie of the worlde , the Head Prieste of al Priestes , and the Fundation of the Faithe . So Paphnutius , beinge no Pope , was hearde against al the reste of the Councel of Nice : So S. Hierome beinge neither Pope , nor Bishop , was receiued against this whole Councel of Chalcedon . 36 Quaest. 2. Quia legitima .

Neither did the Councel folowe Leo alone , as the Vniuersal Bishop , and Head of the Churche , but ioined him together with others , as estéeminge them of equal Authoritie . Concil. Chalcedon . Actio . 2. For thus they made theire general shoote : Omnes ita credimus : Leo Papa ita credit : Gyrillus ita credit : Leo , & Anatolius ita credunt : Thus wee al beleeue : Thus Pope Leo beleueth : Cyrillus thus beseueth : Leo , and Anatolius thus beleeue .

And with what credite can M. Hardinge saie , The whole Councel of Chalcedon yelded vnto Pope Leo , as if it had benne vnto Peter him selfe ? For it is certaine , that the same whole Councel decreed against Leo : and likewise Leo against the Councel . For the Councel decreed , contrary to the olde Canons , that the Bishop of Constantinople emonge the foure Patriarches shoulde be the seconde in dignitie , and that the same Bishop of Constantinople should haue and enioie one authoritie , and like Priuileges with the Bishop of Rome . The woordes be these , Acqua Sāctisissmae Sedi Nouae Romae Priuilegia tribuerunt rationabile iudicantes , Concil. Chalcedon . Actio . 16. Pa. 936. vrbem eam ornatam iam Imperio , & Senaru , aequis Senioris Regiae Romae Priuilegijs frui , & in Ecclesiasticis , sicut illa habet , Maiestatem habere negotijs : The Fathers gaue equal Priuileges vnto the Holy See of Newe Rome ( whiche was Constantinople ) thinkinge it to be reasonable , that the same Cittie of Constantinople , beinge now furnished with Empire , and Councel , Churche dependeth of the Pope . should enioie equal Priuileges with the Princely Cittie of the olde Rome , and in al Ecclesiastical affaires shoulde beare the same Maiestie , that Rome beareth . This thinge Pope Leo mutche misliked , and founde greate faulte with the Councel , and would in no wise consente vnto it . Thus he writeth , Leo Epist. 59. Quae per occasionem Synodi malè sunt attentata reprehenderam : I reproued those thinges that were euil attempted by the Councel of Chascedon : Leo Epist. 53. And againe , Nullum vnquàm potuerunt nostrum obtinere consensum : They were neuer hable to geate our consente .

And when these maters were paste by the consente of al the Bishoppes , Lucentius Pope Leoes Legate came whininge in , and besought the Councel , that the whole mater might be repealed . The woordes written in the Councel be these : Lucentius dixit : Concil. Chalcet don . Actio . 16. Sedes Apostolica , quae nobis praecepit , praesentibus humiliati non debet . Et ideò quaecunque in praeiudicium Canonum , hesterna die gesta sunt , nob ● absentibus , sublimitatem vestram petimus , vt circunduci iubeatis . Viri Illustrissimi ludices dixerunt , Quod interloquuri sumus , tòta Synodus approbauit : Lucentius the Popes Legate saide , The Apostolique See of Rome , whose commission wee haue , maye not by any these dooinges be defaced . Therefore wee beseche your honours , that what so euer was concluded here yesterday in our absence , in preiudice of the Canons , ye wil commaunde the same to be blotted out . The Honorable Iudges made him aunsweare : That we haue talkte of , the same the whole Councel hath allowed .

Thus many waies , M. Hardinge , the Vntruthe of your tale plainely appeareth . For the Councel of Chalcedon estéemed not the voice of Leo , as if it had benne the voice of Peter , as you saye : but rather contrariewise made lighte of it , and weighed it none otherwise , then they same cause .

Therefore Liberatus saithe thus touchinge the same : Liberatus , ca. 13. Cùm Anatolius , consentiente Concilio Primatum obtinuisset , Legati verò Romani Episcopi contradicerent , à ludicibus , & Episcopis omnibus illa contradictio suscepta non est . Et licet Sedes Apostolica nune vsque contradicat , tamen , quod à Synodo firmatum est , Imperatorio Patrocinio permanet : When Anatolius ( the Bishop of Constantinople ) by consente of the Councel had obteined the Primacie , notwithstandinge , the Bishop of Roomes Legates stoode against it , yet theire gainesaieinge coulde not be receiued , neither of the Iudges , nor of the Bishoppes . And al be it the Apostolique See of Rome withstande it stil , yet the Decree of the Councel by the Emperours warrante continueth in force .

But you neuer taught vs , ye saye , that the whole state of the Churche dependeth of the Pope . It is not your Doctrine : you neuer spake it . And therefore wée are railers , and sclaunderers , that so reporte you . If it be so in deede , M. Hardinge , as you saye , wherefore then suffer you Cardinal Cusanus to write thus , Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae . Nicolaus Cusasnus De author . Eccl. & Concil. Supra & contra Scripturam . Quare membra Cathedrae vnita , & Pontifici coniuncta efficiunt Ecclesiam : The Truthe cleaueth faste to the ( Popes ) Chaire . Therefore the members vnited to the Chaire , and ioined to the Pope , make the Churche . Wherefore suffer you Iohannes de Parisijs , one of your Catholique Doctours , to write thus : Fiet vnum Ouile , & vnus Pastor . Quod quidem de Christo intelligi non potest : Sed de aliquo alio Ministro , qui praesit loco cius : Iohan. De Parisijs De potestate Regia , & Papali , Cap. 3. There shal be one Plocke , and one shepheard . Whiche thinge cannot be taken of Christe . We must needes vnderstande it of some other Minister , that ruleth in his steede .

Wherefore suffer you Nosius your Grande Captaine to write thus : Vnum toti praecsse Ecclesiae Vsque adeò est necessarium , vt absque hoc Ecclesia vna esse non possit : It is so necessarie a thinge , Hosius In Confessione Petricoui , Cap. 27. that one onely man oueruse the whole Churche , that without the same the Churche cannot be one . Wherefore suffer you your Canonistes to saie , Constat Ecclesiam ideo esse vnam , quia in Vniuersali Ecclesia vnum est Caput Supremum , Scilicet Papa : It is plaine , that therefore the Churche is one , bicause that in the whole Vniuersal Churche there is one Supreme Head , Clemen . Lib. 5. Ad nostrum : In Glossae . that is the Pope . To be shorte , why doo you your selfe , M. Hardinge , allege S. Hieromes woordes directly , as ye woulde haue vs beleue , to this purpose ? M. Hard fo 80. b Hierony . contra Luciferianos . Ecclesiae salus à Summi Sacerdotis dignitate pendet : Which woordes into Englishe ye haue turned thus : The safetie of the Churche hangeth of the Woorship of the Highe Prieste . He meaneth the Pope Peters Successour . In whiche laste clause , ye misconstrue , and racke S. Hieromes woordes far contrary to his meaninge . For S. Hierome meante not bereby the Bishop of Rome , but euery seueral Bishop within his owne Charge : euery whiche Bishop he calleth the Highest Prieste , as in my Former Replie it is declared more at large . Art● . 4. Diul . 15.

If these thinges be true , why are they nowe denied ? If they be false , why are they not condemned ? I truste , it maye appeare by these fewe , that wée reporte the Truthe truely , and are no sclaunderers .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 2.

Sithence then they bringe foorthe none of these for them selues , and cal vs neuerthelesse Heretiques , whiche haue neither fallen from Christe , nor from the Apostles , nor yet from the Prophetes , this is an iniurious and a very spiteful dealinge .

M. Hardinge .

Nay Sirs , ye shal not so carie awaye the conclusion with a lie . But contrarywise , sithens wee bringe foorthe many Scriptures for the Truthe , whiche ye impugne , as your selues shal see , when we come to confute your doctrine , whiche here foloweth : and sithens not withstandinge that ye wil not yeelde to the Scriptures , but peruert the True meaninge of them with Gloses and interpretations of your owne Heades , Vntruthe . frame newe opinions contrary to that ye haue receaued , and that the Churche hathe euer taught : the Catholikes wilful cal you Heretikes , and the Churche wil condemne you for Heretikes , and so accompt you , vntil ye recant , and repent .

But ye haue not fallen from Christe , That the Defenders be fallen from Christe . ye saye , nor from the Apostles , nor yet from the Prophetes . As though they that departe from the Romaine Churche , whiche is the Catholike Churche , which diuerse times in the Apologie ye confesse , fell not from Christe , and consequently from the Apostles , and Prophetes . Math. 28. Luke . 10. Saithe not Christe in the Gospel : He that heareth not the Churche , let him bee to thee as an Heathen , and a Publicane ? Saieth he not also , He that despiseth you , despiseth mee ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Whether parte rightly and reuerently vseth the Scriptures of God , and whether peruerteth them by shiftes , and Gloses , I truste , it shal in parte appeare by this conference . In déede , M. Hardinge , it is no great maisterie , by your interpretations , and handelinges to haue stoare yenough and plenette of Scriptures . For this is one special grounde of your Diuinitie , a a Extra . De translatione Episcopi , Quanto , in Glossa . Papa potest ex nihilo facere aliquid : & Sententiam , quae nulla est , facere aliquam : The Pope is hable of nothinge to make some thinge : and of no Sentence to make some Sentence . By your Doctrine it is lawful , and good Logique , to reason thus : b b Dist. 21. Inferior Sedes . Esai . 10. An gloriabitur serra aduersus eum , qui trahit illam● Shal the sawe boaste against him , that draweth it ? c c Matthae . 10. Concil. Roman . sub Syluestro . 1. Non est Seruus supra Dominum : There is no Seruant aboue his Lorde : Ergo , Noman maye dare to Iudge the Pope . Or thus , d d Ad Titum . 1. Dist. 82. Proposuisti . Omnia munda mundis : Coinquinatis autem , & infidelibus mihil est mundum : Al thinges are cleane to the cleane : but vnto the filthy , and Infidelles nothinge is cleane : Ergo , It is not lawful for Priestes to marry .

Or , as you , M. Hardinge , sometimes haue delited to reason : e e Matthae . 7. M. Hardinge in his former Booke , Fol. 155. b. Nolite dare Sanctum Canibus : Geeue not Holy thinges to Dogges , Ergo , It is not laweful for the Christian vulgare People to Reade the Scriptures .

Thus maye you easily be wel stoared , and ful freight of Scriptures yenough , and , as f f Hieronym . ad Pammachium : Exempla captiua seruiunt ad Victoriam . S. Hierome saithe , maye carrie them captiue to serue your turne . But S. Hierome coulde also haue tolde you , g g Hierony . in 1. Cap. Ad Galat. Non in verbis Scripturarum est Euangelium , Cyprian ad Notianum . to . 2. sed in sensu : The Gospel standeth not in the bare woordes of the Scriptures , but in the meaninge . Therefore wée maye saye vnto you , as S. Cyprian once saide to the Nouatian Heretiques : Audite , Nouatiani , apud quos Scripturae Coelestes leguntur potiùs , quàm intelliguntur : Hearken hereto , ye Nouatian Heretiques , emongst whome the Heauenly Scriptures are readde rather , then wel perceiued .

You saye , the Churche of Rome by our owne Confession is the Catholique Churche : whiche Churche , for as mutche as wée haue forsaken , wée haue forsalten Christe , and his Apostles . Matth. 18. Lucae . 10. For saithe not Christe in the Gospel , saye you , He that heareth not the Churche , let him be vnto thee as an Heathen , and a Publicane ? And , He that despiseth you , despisethe mee ?

Wée graunte , M. Hardinge , the name of the Churche of Rome is Catholique : but the Errours and abuses thereof are not Catholique . Neither is it the Churche , that wée finde faulte withal : but the greate corruptions , and foule deformities , that you haue brought into the Churche .

Howe be it your policie herein is apparent . Your Reader , be he neuer so simple , maye soone sée your whole drifte . Ye magnifie the Churche with al manner titles of Authoritie , not for any special regarde , ye beare the Churche in déede , but onely to settle your selues in an infinite Tyrannie , and to make vs beleue , that you onely are the Churche , & to geue credite to al your fantasies : yea although ye be the defacers , & enimies of the Churche . Verily the bare name of the Churche is not sufficient . S. Paule saithe , that Antichriste the Man of sinne , 2. Thess. ● . shal sitte in the Temple of God : whereby no doubte he meante the Churche .

But , M. Hardinge , Heare you the voice of God : leaue your Fables : speake Goddes Holy Woord , and speake it truely : be ye faitheful Ministers of the Truthe . Then who so euer shal be founde to despise your Doctrine , be he kinge , or Emperour , wée will not doubte to calle him an Heathen , and Publicane . But if he be an Heathen , that wil not beare your Churche , what is he then that wil not heare Christe ? Aeneas Sylui. in Gestis Concil. Consiant . Aeneas Syluius , beinge afterwarde Pope him selfe , saithe thus : Si Romanus Pontifex non audiet Ecclesiam , Christum quoque non audiet , & tanquam Ethnicus , & Publicanus haberi debet : If the Bishop of Rome wil not heare the Churche , he wil not heare Christe : and therefore muste be taken as an Heathen , Paral. Vrsperg . Pag. 411. and Publicane . S. Augustine saith , Oues meae vocem meam audiunt , & sequuntur me . Auferantur chartae Humanae : sonent voces Diuinae : My Sheepe heare my voice , Aug. De Ouibus Cap. 14. and folowe me . Awaie with Mannes Writtinges : Let the Voice of God sounde vnto vs .

Surely Doctour Luther him selfe , againste whom M. Hardinge so vehemently , and so often inflamethe his choler , in humble and reuerent manner writethe thus : Nos colimus Romanam Ecclefiam in omnibus . Paral. Visperg . Pag. 472. Tantùm illis resistimus , qui pro Ecclesia obtrudunt Babyloniam : Wee honour the Churche of Rome in al thinges . Onely wee withstand them , that in steede of the Churche , haue thruste in the Consusion of Babylon . In like sense S. Cyprian . saithe , Non est pax , sed bellum : nec Ecclesiae iungitur , Cyprian Sermone 5. De Lapsis . qui ab Euangelio separatur : It is not peace : It is Warre . Neither is he ioined to the Churche , that is dinided from the Gospel . Nowe , howe carefully the Churche of Rome is leadde by the Gospel of Christe , Nicola . Cusanus , De Authoritate Eccle. contra . & supra Scripturam . Aug contra Literas Petilianl Lib. 2. Cap. 85. wee maie easily learne by Nicolaus Cusanus a Cardinal of the same Churche of Rome . Thus he saithe : Sequuntur Scripturae Ecclesiam : & non è conuerso : The Scriptures of God folowe the Churche : but contrary wise the Churche folowethe not the Scriptures . To conclude , wée maye saye vnto you , as S. Augustine saide sometime to Pētilian the Donatian Heretique : Vtrùm nos Schismatici simus , an vos , nec ego , nec tu , sed Christus interrogetur , vt iudicet Ecclesiam suam : Whether of vs be Sch●matiques , wee , or you , aske you not me : I wil not aske you : Let Christe be asked : that he maie shewe vs his owne Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 1.

With this swerde did Christe put of the Diuel , when he was tempted of him : with these weapons ought al presumption , whiche doothe auaunce it selfe againste God , ● . Tim. 3. to be ouerthrowen and conquered . For al Scripture , saithe S. Paule , that commethe by the Inspiration of God , is profitable to teache , to confute , to instructe , and to reproue , that the man of God may be perfite , and throughly framed to euery good woorke . Thus did the Holy Fathers alwaie fight againste the Heretiques , with none other force , then with the Holy Scriptures .

M. Hardinge .

That the Holy Fathers did euer more fight against the Heretiques with nowe other force , then with the Holy Scriptures , that weè denie .

For What did the Fathers in the first general Councel holden at Nice ? did they fight against Arius and the mainteiners of his Heresie with no other force , then with the Scriptures ? When those Heretikes refused the woorde Homousion , whereby is signified the sonne of God to be of one and the same substance with God the Father , for that it was not to be found in the Scriptures , besides whiche they stiffely denied , as ye doo , that any thinge ought to be receiued : did not the Caetholike Bishoppes of thother side flie to the Ancient Fathers ? did thei not appeale to the iudgementes of those Fathers , which had geuen sentence of the mater then beinge in controuersie , before that Arius and those that helde of his side were borne ?

In the seconde Councel assembled at Constantinople , Histor. Tripart . lib. 5 , cap. 10. were not the Heretikes of sundry sectes by a wittie and a godly policie contriued betwene Nectarius the Bishop and Theodosius the Emperour , through the suggestion of the greate Clerke Stsinnius , driuen to receiue the Doctours , who liued before theire Heresies were heard of , as witnesses of true Christian Doctrine woorthy of credite ?

Macedonius in that Councel was condemned , Macedonius . who therefore denied the Holy Ghost to be God . bicause the Scriptures geue not vnto him that name . But the Bishops there assembled , as Photius that learned Bishop writeth , declared out of the teaching of the Fathers , and Diuines before theire time , that the Holy Ghost is to be adored , worshipped , and glorified , as beinge of one nature and substance togeather with the Father , and the Sonne .

In the thirde Councel kept at Ephesus , Nestorius euer called for Scripture , as the Heretikes at this daie doo , what so euer secte they bee of . Epist. 1. Tom. 4 Deipara not found in Scripture , yet receiued and kept . the Heretike Nestorius boasted , at ye doo , of the Scriptures , sayinge , they were of his side , and would neither speake , nor heare ought but Scriptures , Scriptures . And alleaginge a place or twoo out of the Gospel , where Marie is called the Mother of Iesus , stoutely , finde me in all Scripture , ( quoth he ) wher Marie is called the Mother of God . Hereto what said that holy and learned Bishop Cyrillus , chiefe in that Councel ? Hanc nobis fidem diuini tradidere Discipuli : & licet nullam fecerint dictionis huius mentionem , ita tamen sentire à sanctis Patribus edocti sumus . This Fatthe ( saith he ) the Disciples of God haue by tradition lefte vnto vs . And although they haue made no expresse mention of this woorde ( Deipara ) yet so to thinke we haue benne taught of the Holy Fathers .

When they reasoned about rules touchinge faithe to be made , ( saithe Vincentius Lirinensis writinge of that Councel ) to al the Bishoppes there assembled to the number almost of two hundred , this seemed most Catholike , most faitheful , and beste to be done , that the sentences of the Holy Fathers should be brought foorthe amonge them : to th end that by theire consente and Decrce the Religion of the Olde Doctrine should be confirmed , and the blasphemie of the Prophane nouel●ie condemned . Behold Sirs what weapons the Fathers haue vsed against Heresies , besides the Holy Scriptures .

In the fourthe Councel , whiche was celebrated at Chalcedon , the Heretike Eutyches , as ye and al Heretikes haue done , c●aked mutche of the Scriptures , and required his matter to be discussed by Scriptures . Tel me ( quoth he mockingly to euery one that reasoned with him ) in what Scripture lie the twoo natures ? Eutyches claimed his opinion to be tried by the Scriptures .

But let vs heare what the Learned Bishoppes of that Councel saide thereto . Wee finde in the first action of the Councel , that they cried out aloude , Ea quae sunt Patrum teneantur : The thinges that the Fathers haue taught , The teachinge of the Fathers to be kept : Actio . 5. let them be kept . Againe when they come to the definitiue sentence , they saie : Sequentes igitur Sanctos Patres , &c. Folo winge the Holy Fathers , wee doo al with one accorde teache men to confesse one and him selfe the Sonne our Lorde Iesus Christe , persite him selfe in Godhead , and perfite himselfe in Manhood . And for Auctoritie of the Fathers in high pointes of Faith a Bishop in that reuerend assemblie named Eudoocius pronounced a notable sentence , sayeing thus : Euery one that consentethe not to the exposition of the Holy Fathers , A notable sayinge of a Learned Father , for th exposition of the Fathers . doothe alienate him selfe from al Pristely Communion , and from the presence of Christe . Thus wee haue alleaged the foure first general Councels , whiche S. Gregorie honourethe as the foure Gospels .

But the thinge beinge so euident as it is , and so welkuorwen euen to your selues , if ye be learned , the Auctorit it of these chief Councels maie suffice .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here M. Hardinge , ye haue taken in hande a néedelesse labour . For you knowe right wel , wee despise not the Authoritie of the Holy Fathers : but rather in this selfe same place haue alleged togeather S. Augustine , S. Hierome , and S. Ambrose , thrée of the moste Auncient and approued Fathers : and throughout the whole discourse of this Apologie , in the Defence of the Catholique Truthe of our Religion , nexte vnto Goddes Holy Woorde , haue vsed no prouse , or Authoritie so mutche , as the expositions , and iudgementes of the Holy Fathers . Wée despise them not therefore , but rather geue God thankes in theire behalfe , for that it hathe pleased him to prouide so woorthy instrumentes for his Churche : and therefore wée iustly reproue you , for that so vnaduisedly , and without cause , ye haue forsaken the steppes of so Holy Fathers .

These foure General Councelles , wherein you dwel so longe , as they make nothinge against vs , so in sundrie pointes they fight expressely against you .

Firste , they were summoned by the Emperours , Constantinus , Theodosius 1. Theodosius . 2. and Martianus : and not by any right , or authoritie of the Pope : as hereafter it shal be shewed in place conuenient more at large . a a Sozo . li. 1. ca. 17 Iulius the Bishop of Rome was summoned by the Emperours write to appeare at the Councel of Nice , as wel as others : b b Concil. Chalcedon . Actio . 1. Fol. 748. And Pope Leo afterwarde was charged by like Authoritie to appeare at the Councel of Chalcedon . Eodem tenore Leo vocauys est .

c c Euseb. De Vita Constan . Orat. 3. In the Councel of Nice the Bishop of Rome was not President , but Eustathius the Bishop of Antioche . In the same d d Theodoretus , Lib. 1. cap. 7. Con. Nicen. Can. 6. Councel of Nice , the Bishop of Rome hathe his Authoritie and Iurisdiction made equal , and leuel with the other thrée Patriarkes : e e Concil. Chal. cedon . Actio . 16. Pag. 936. And in the Councel of Chalcedon the Bishop of Constantinople is made equal in Authoritie with the Bishop of Roome . To be shorte , f f Liberat. ca. 13. the saide Councel of Chalcedon , for this laste , and some other like causes , Leo the Bishop of Rome would not allowe . Which thinge notwithstandinge , the Councel standethe stil in force , whether the Pope wil , or no.

These be the foure fiste General Councelles , whiche M. Hardinge comparethe in Authoritie with the foure Euangelistes .

But these Heretiques . Arius , Nestorius , Macedonius , and Euiyches in these foure General Councelles , vtterly despised al the Auncient Fathers , and boasted them selues ( saithe M. Hardinge ) of the Scriptures , and euermore cried out Scriptures , Scriptures . Touchinge the Arians , that they alleged certaine doubteful , and darke places of the Scriptures , to serue theire purpose , it is certaine , and manifeste . But that either they despised , or that the Catholiques against them auouched the Eropsition and authoritie of any Father , M. Hardinges onely woorde muste be our Warrante . For neither allegethe he any one Author for prouse hereof , nor yet namethe any of al these Fathers .

Notwithstandinge , let vs graunt , these Heretiques cried out , as M. Hardinge saithe , Scriptures , Scriptures . Euen so did the same Heretiques likewise crie out , euen as nowe M. Hardinge doothe , Socr. li. 4. ca. 26. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Fathers , Fathers . Socrates saithe , Et Ariani Originis libros citabant in Testimonium , vt illi quidem iudicabant , sui Dogmatis . And the Arian Heretikes alleged the Learned Father Origens Bookes , Doctours alleged by Heretiques . as they thought , for proufe , and witnesse of theire Doctrine .

The Heretique Eutyches saide , Ego legi scripta Beati Cypriani , & Sanctorum Patrum , Concil Chalced Actio 1. Pag. 792 Concil. Chalced Actio . 4. Pa. 877 & Sancti Athanasii : I haue readde the writinges of S. Cyprian , and of other Holy Fathers , and of S. Athanafius .

Likewise the Eutychian Heretique Carosus saide , Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum octodecim Patrum sic credo , sic Baptixatus sum . Aliud quid mihi dicas , nescio : This is my Faithe , accordinge to the exposition of the three hundred and eighteene . Fathers ( in the Councel of Nice ) . In this Faithe was I Baptized . What ye should saye more to me , I cannot telle .

Euen so saide Eutyches him selfe : Concil. Chalced. Actio . 1. Pag. 751 Sic à Progenitoribus meis accepi , & credidi . In hac Fide Baptizatus sum , & signatus : & vsque and hunc diem in ea vixi , & in ea opto moti . Thus haue I receiued of my Forefathers , and thus haue I beleeued . In this Faithe was I Baptized , and signed : and in the same haue I liued vntil this daye : and in the same I wish to die .

Thus , Augustia . contra Cresco . li. 4. ca. 17 Conc. to . 1 pa. 568 S. Augustine saithe , the Donatian Heretique Cresconlus alleged the authoritie of S. Cyprian : Thus the Nestorian Heretiques alleged the authoritie of the Councel of Nice .

To be shorte , thus the Heretique Dioscorus cried out in the open Councel of Chalcedon : Concil. Chalced. Act. 1. Pag. 767. Ego habeo Testimonia Sanctorum Patrum , Athanasij , Gregorij , Cyrilli . Non transgredior in aliquo . Ego cum Patribus cijcior : Ego defendo Patrum Dogmata : Ego horum habeo testimonia , non simpliciter , aut transitorie , sed in ipsorum libris : I haue the Testimonies of the Holy Fathers , Athanasius , Gregorius , Cyrillus : I alter not from them in any pointe : I am throwen foorthe , and bannished with the Fathers : I defende the Fathers Doctrine : I haue theire iudgementes vttered , not by chaunce , or vnaduisedly , but remaininge expressed in theire Bookes .

I doubte not , M. Hardinge , but you maye hereby easily sée , that the Heretiques ye speake of , cried not onely , Scriptures , Scriptures , as ye saye : but had leasure also sometimes to crie , as you doo , Fathers , Fathers : & that as wel to purpose , and as rightly , as you of longe time haue vsed to crie , hauinge in déede in the cases wée speake of , neither Scriptures , nor Fathers .

To come neare the mater , wée saie not , that al cases of doubt are by manifeste , and open woordes plainely expressed in the Scriptures . For so there should neede no exposition . But wée saye , There is no case in Religion so darke , and doubteful , but it maie necessarily be either proued , or reproued by collection , and conference of the Scriptures .

S. Hierome saithe , Hieron . in Esai . Cap. 19. Moris est Scripturarum obscuris manifesta subnectere : It is the order of the Scriptures ▪ Augu. in lib. 83. Quaest. q. 69. after harde thinges , to ioine other thinges that bee plaine . S. Augustine like wise saithe , Solet circunstantia Scripturarum illuminare sententiam : The Circunstance of the Scripture is woonte to geue light , and to open the meaninge . The like rule Tertullian also geuethe : Tertull. Aduersus Tra●eam . I piphani lib. 3. De Semiariani● . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Oportet secundum plu●a intelligi pauclora : The fewer places muste be expounded by the moe . Therefore touchinge this woorde , Homousios , whiche M. Hardinge here moueth , and the whole contention of the Arians , Epiphanius writethe thus : Nomen Substantiae simpliciter , & nudè in veteri , & Noua Scriptura non proponitur : Sententia autem eius nominis vbique oc●urrié : This woorde , Substance , plainely , and nakedly is not founde , neither in the Olde , not in the Newe Testamente . But the sense , and meaninge of that woorde is founde euerywhere .

In this conference , and Iudgemente of the Holy Scriptures wée néede oftentimes the discretion , and wisedome of Learned Fathers . Yet notwithstandinge maye wée not géeue them herein greater credi●e , then is conuenient , or then they them selues , if it were offered , would receiue . Wée maye reuerently saye of them , as Seneca in the like case sommetime saide , ●eneca . Non sunt Domini , sed Duces nostri : They are our Leaders , but not our Lordes . Scriptures and Doctours . They are not the Truthe of God it selfe , but onely witnesses vnto the Truthe .

Therfore S. Augustine saithe , August . Epist. 19. ad Hieronym . Alios Scriptores ita lego , vt quan●alibet Sanctitate , Doctrinaque praepolleant , non ideò verum putem , quòd ipsi ita senserint , sed quòd id mihi vel per alios Authores Canonicos , vel probabili ratione persuadere potuerint : Other writers , or Fathers ( bisides the Holy Scriptures ) I reade in this sorte , that be theire Learninge , or Holinesse neuer so greate , I wil not thinke it true , bicause they haue thought so , but bicause they are hable to persuade me so , either by other Canonical writers , or els by some likely reason . Augusti . contra Faust . lib. 11. ca. 5. Likewise againe he saithe , Hoc genus literatum , non cum credendi necessitate , sed cum iudicandi libertate legendum est : This kinde of writinges ( of the Holy Doctours , and Fathers ) must be readde , not with necessitie to beleeue eche thinge , but with libertie to iudge of eche thinge . Aug. De Vnita . Eccle. ca. 10. And to that ende he saithe , Ne Catholicis quidem Episcopis consentiendum est , sicubi fortè falluntur , vt contra Canonicas Dei Scripturas sentiant : Wee maie not consente vnto the Bishoppes , notwithstandinge they be Catholique , if they iudge contrarie to the Holy Canonical Scriptures . In this authoritie and credite wée haue , and ought to haue the Holy Fathers .

Nowe let vs sée , whethér the Bishoppes , and others in these Councelles , confuted these Heretiques , as wée saye , by the Scriptures : or els , as M. Hardinge séemethe to saye , for wante or weakenesse of the Scriptures , vsed therein the Authoritie of the Fathers . Thedor . li. 1. ca. 7 Trip. hi. li. 2. ca. 5 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Firste the Emperour Constantinus in the Councel of Nice , instructinge the Bishoppes there , howe they might best debate theire quarrelles , and ende al striues , saithe thus vnto them : Euangelicae & Apostolicae Literae , & Veterum Prophetarum Oracula perspicuè nos instituunt , quid oporteat sapere de voluntare , & sensu Dei. Ponentes ergo contentionem , ex diuinitùs inspiraris oraculis quaeramus solutionem eorum , quae proponuntur : The Euangelistes and Apostles Writinges , and the saieinges of the Olde Prophetes doo clearely instructe vs , what iudgemente wee ought to haue of the meaninge , and wil of God . Therefore saieinge a fide al contention , out of those Heauenly Oracles let vs seeke for the assoilinge of our questions .

Socrates also touchinge the same Councel of Nice , saithe thus of the Arian Heretiques : Socrat. li. 1. ca. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Explicantes Sacrosanctas Scripturas saepe illos euertimus : By openinge , and expoundinge the Holy Scriptures , oftentimes wee ouerthrewe them .

Likewise S. Augustine disputinge againste the same Arians refusethe , as I haue saide before , bothe Councelles , and Fathers , and appealethe onely to the Scriptures : Nec ego Nicenam Synodum tibi , nec tu mihi Ariminensem debes obijcere : Scripturarum Authoritatibus , res cum re , causa cum causa , ratio cum ratione concertet : Neither wil I allege the Councel of Nice against you : Augusti . contra Maxi. li. 3. ca. 14 nor shal you allege the Councel of Ariminum againste me . By the Authoritie of the Scriptures let vs weigh mater with mater : cause with cause : reason with reason .

Touchinge the Councel holden at Constantinople against Macedonius , and the Diuinitie of the Holy Ghoste , Athanasius saithe , Athanas . ad Serapion . Spirit . Sanct. non esse Creaturam . ●uagrius . Ne interroges , sed solùm ex Sacris literis condiscas . Sufficiunt enim documenta , quae in illis reperias : Neuer mooue question hereof , but onely learne of the Holy Scriptures . For the onely proufes , that ye shal there finde , are sufficient ( to warrant the Godhed of the Holy Ghoste ) . So likewise saithe Euagrius of the other twoo Councelles , of Ephesus , and Chalcedon : Ex Euangelicis , & Apostolicis de Domino vocibus scimus Viros illos Diuinos constituisse : Wee knowe that these Godly Fathers concluded this mater by suche woordes , as the Euangelistes , and Apostles haue vttered of our Lorde .

Therefore the Auncient Father Origen saithe , Vide quàm propè periculis illi sint , Orig. in ca. 16. ad Rom. lib. 10. qui negligunt exerceri in Diuinis Literis : ex quibus Solis examinationis huiusmodi agnoscenda discretio est : Consider , in what daunger they be , that haue no care to reade the Holy Scriptures . Chrysost. in Opere imperfec●o , Homi 49. For by the same Scriptures Onely the iudgement of this trial must be allowed .

Euen so saithe Chrysostome , Etiamsi in ipsis Veris Ecclesijs , quae Dei sunt , dixerint , Christum apparuisse , nolite eis credere dicentibus ista de me . Non enim digna est Diuinitatis meae haec notitia : Ostendens per haec , quòd ab ipsis saepè Veris Ecclesijs excunt seductores . Proptereà ne ipsis quidem credendum est , nisi ea vel dicant , vel faciant , quae conuenientia sint Scripturis : Yea if they saie , that Christe hathe appeared in the very true Churches of God , yet beleeue them not . For this is no woorthy or sufficient knoweledge of my Godhed . By this he sheweth , that out of the very true Churches oftentimes come foor the deceiuers . Therefore wee maie not beleeue , no not them ( that speake vnto vs in the name of the Churche ) onlesse they speake , and doo suche thinges , as are agreeable to the Scriptures . In like manner againe saithe Origen , Orig. in Hiere . Hom. 1. Necesse nobis est in restimonium vocare Sancras Scripturas . Sensus quippe nostri , & enarrationes sine ijs restibus non habent fidem : Wee muste needes calle to witnesse the Holy Scriptures : For our iudgementes and expositions without those witnesses carrie no credit .

And , to leaue al other like authorities , that might he alleged , for shorte conclusion , Aug. De Naturae & Cratia , ca. 61 S. Augustine saithe , Solis Canonicis Scripturis sine vlla recusatione consensum debeo : I owe my consente without gaine saieinge ( not vnto the Doctours , or Fathers , but ) Onely vnto the Canonical Scriptures .

But the Bishoppes in those Councelles , saithe M. Hardinge , brought foorthe , and folowed the expositions of the Auncient Learned Fathers . And wherefore might they not ? What man euer taught , or saide the contrarie ? Yet notwithstandinge they alleged them , not as the fundations , or groundes , but onely as approued , ●uagrius libr. 3. Cap. 18 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and faitheful witnesses of the Truthe . Whiche thinge if M. Hardinge happily wil denie , maie easily appeare , by the woordes of Cyrillus , pronounced and published openly in the Councel of Chalcedon : Gratulamur nobis mutuò , quòd & nostrae , & vestrae Ecclesiae Fidem habent consentientem , & diuinitùs adspiratis Scripturis , & Traditionibus Sanctorum Patrum : Wee reioice togeather eche of vs in others behalfe , for that the Faithe bothe of our Churches , and also of yours , is agreable bothe vnto the Heauenly inspired Scriptures , and also to the Tradition , and exposition of our Fathers . Whiche woordes of Cyrillus beinge hearde , and the consente of the Fathers being knowen , the whole Councel for ioye made a shoote togeather , Omnes ita credimus , Papa Leo ita credit , &c. Thus wee al beleeue : Pope Leo thus beleeuethe : Thus beleeuethe Leo , and Anatolius : Thus Cyrillus beleeuethe : This is the Faithe of our Fathers : This is the Faithe of the Apostles : Thus haue the Apostles taught .

Thus maye you sée , M. Hardinge , ( wée saye not to you , as you doo to vs , If you be Learned , for thereof we haue no doubte : God graunte , ye maie directe your Learninge to his glorie ) but thus maye you see , to what ende the Bishoppes in the Councelles , ye speake of , alleged the expositions of the Ancient Fathers , and howe farre they weighed them vnder the Authoritie of the Scriptures . In like sorte doo wée also this day allege against you the manifeste , and vndoubted , & agreeable iudgementes of the moste Aunciente Learned Holy Fathers : and thereby , as by apapproued , and faitheful witnesses , wée disclose the infinite folies , and errours of your Doctrine . And séeinge you haue forsaken the felowship of the saide Holy Fathers , as hereafter shal more ●ully appeare , wée saye , vnto you , as Endoxius saide vnto the Heretique Abbate Eutyches in the Councel of Chalcedon : Ye haue remoued your selues , bothe from al Priestly Communion , and also from the presence of Christe .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 2.

S. De Vnitate Eccle. ca. 3. Et contra Maximinum Arianorū●pis . Li. 3. Cap 14. Augustine , when he disputed againste Petilian the Donatian Heretique : Let not these woordes , quod he , be hearde betweene vs : I saye , or , you saye : Let vs rather speake in this wise : Thus saithe the Lorde . There let vs seeke the Churche : there let vs boulte out the cause .

M. Hardinge .

Concerninge this place of S. Augustine , it ought not to be stretched to al maters in general , that be in question , Manifeste Vntruthe . as though wee might not vse the Testimonies and Authorities of the Fathers againste Heretikes : but it perteinethe onely to the quaestion in that booke , De vnitate Ecclesiae , treated of , whiche is , where the Churche is . Petilian the Donatist , and the Mainteiners of that Heresie contended the Churche to be onely in Aphrike , or at the furthest in Parte Donati , amonge them onely that helde with Donatus . The same heresie went they about to proue by Scriptures . But when S. Augustine sawe howe weake theire proufes were , whiche they brought out of the Scriptures , he prouoked them , the better to ouerthrow them , to come to the trial of the Scriptures . And in deede where the Scriptures be manifeste for proufe of any matter , what nede is there of Doctours ? But where the sense of the Scriptures is obscure , and may be wrested by euil wittes to the maintenaunce of an Heresie , there the expositions of the Fathers by al Olde Writers haue ben taken of necessitie , to supplie the Scriptures obscuritie , and to declare the sense of the Churche , whiche the Holy Ghost hathe prompted . And in sutche cases S. Augustine himselfe vsethe the Testimonies of the Fathers not seldome , namely against Iulian the Pelagian : Where beside Scripture , touchinge Original sinne , he allegethe against the Pelagians a great number of Fathers : and at length in one place speakinge of the Authoritie , reuerence , and credite he had them in , he saithe thus : Contra Iulian● Pelagian . Lib. 1. Quod credunt , credo , &c : What they beleue , I beleue : what they holde , I holde : what they teache , I teache : what they preache , I preache . From the special to the general negatiuely , the argumente holdethe not , ye knowe , if ye haue not forgotten your Logike .

The B. of Sarisburie .

M. Hardinge , as wel here , as els where , thinkethe it an easy mater , with a bolde Asseueration to smoothe his vnlearned simple Reader , specially sutche a one , as hathe no eies to looke after him . These woordes of S , Augustine , saithe he , perteine onely vnto the mater he had then in hande , and therefore maye not be forced to any other . And here he remembrethe vs of a profounde pointe in Logique , that a Negatiue Conclusion from the Special to the General cannot holde . Here it were a mater woorthy the hearinge : firste , howe M. Hardinge coulde enter so déepely , to knowe so mutche of S. Augustines meaninge : next , for as mutche as in respecte of him selfe , he euermore fansiethe vs to be vnlearned , howe he were hable to teache vs to knowe the same . He assuerethe vs vpon his woorde , that these woordes of S. Augustine muste néedes be pounded , and restreined to that one onely mater , & maie not in any wise be stretched farther : & this , he imagineth , was S. Augustines meaninge . Thus , good Reader , by M. Hardinges handlinge , thou haste here a meaninge of S. Augustines , that S. Augustine himselfe neuer meante . For S. Augustine in the same mater , and against the same Heretique Petilian , although not in the same Booke , writethe thus : Augusti . contra Liter . Petilian . Lib. 3. Cap. 6. Siue de Christo , siue de eius Ecclesia , siue de quacunque re alia , quae pertinet ad Fidem , vitamque nostram , non dicam , Si Nos , Sed , si Angelus de Coelo nobis annuntiauerit , praeterquàm quod in Scripturis Legalibus , & Euangelicis accepistis , Anathema sit : Whether it bee of Christe , or of his Churche , or of any thinge els what so euer , perteininge either to our life , or to our Faithe , I wil not saie , If I mee selfe , but if an Angel from Heauen shal teache vs otherwise , Gala. 1. then wee haue receiued in the Bookes of the Lawe , and in the Gospelles , holde him accursed .

M. Hardinge saithe , S. Augustine meante onely of one mater : S. Augustine him selfe saithe , he meante of al manner maters , touchinge either Faithe , or Life .

M. Hardinge saithe , S. Augustine meante this onely of him selfe : S. Augustine him selfe saithe , De quacunqúe re . Si Angelus de Coelo . be meante it of any other , yea euen of the Angels of God . And shal wee thinke , M. Hardinge knoweth S. Augustines meaninge , and S. Augustine him selfe knewe it not ?

Verily S. Augustine in an other case concerninge the Arians , as I haue touched twise before , likewise refuseth the Determinations of al Councelles , and Fathers , and standeth onely to the Scriptures : Augusti . contra Maxi. Li. 3. ca. 14 Neither wil I , saithe he ▪ allege againste thee , the Councel of Nice : nor shalt thou allege againste mée the Councel of Ariminum , &c.

Neither dothe S. Augustine onely saye thus , but also yeeldeth a reason , why he saithe it . These be his woordes : Auferantur de medio , quae aduersus nos inuicem , non ex Diuinis Canonicis Libris , Augu. Devnita . Iccle . contra Petilian . Cap. 3. sed aliundé recitamus . Quaerer fortasse aliquis , Cur vis ista auferri de medio ? Quia nolo humanis Documentis , sed Diuinis Oraculis Ecclesiam Sanctam demonstrari : Haue away al those Authorities , that either of vs allegeth against the other , sauinge sutche onely , as be taken out of the Heauenly Canonical Scriptures . But perhaps , somme man wil aske me . Wherefore would ye haue al sutche other Authorities put away ? I answeare , Bicause I would haue the Holy Churche to he proued , not by the Doctrines of menne , but by the Woorde of God .

So saithe S. Augustine vnto other the Donatistes : Augu. in Psal. 57 Auferantur de medio Chartae nostrae : procedat in medium Codex Dei . Audi Christum dicentem : audi Veritatem loquentem : Take a waie from emongst vs any our own Bookes : Let the Booke of God comme emongste vs . Heare , what Christe saithe : Herken , what the Truthe speaketh .

Againe he saithe , Audi , dicit Dominus : Non , dicit Donatus , aut Rogatus , aut Vincentius , Augu. in Epist. 48 aut Hilarius , aut Ambrosius , aut Augustinus : sed , dicit Dominus : Heare this : The Lorde saithe . Heare not this , Donatus saithe , Rogatus saithe , Vincenius saithe , Hilarius saithe , Ambrose saithe , Augustine saithe : But herken to this , The Lorde saithe .

In like fourme of woordes saithe S. Ambrose : Nolo nobis credatur : Scriptura recitetur . Ambros . De Incarnat . Domin . Sacramen . ca. 3. Chrysost. in 2. ad Corinth . Homi. 3 Non ego dico à me , In principio erat Verbum , sed audio . Non ego effingo : sed lego : I would not , ye should beleeue vs : But reade the Scriptures : I saye not of mee selfe , In the beginninge was the Woorde : But I heare it . I make it not : but I reade it .

Likewise saithe Chrysostome , Oro vos omnes , vt relinquatis , quid huic , aut illi videatur : & de his à Scripturis haec omnia inquirite : I beseeche you al , weigh not , what this man , or that man thinketh : but touching al these thinges searche the Scriptures .

Nowe , where as it pleaseth M. Hardinge , to telle vs of an Argumente Negatiue from Special to General , and so to cal vs to the remembrance of our Logique : pleaseth it him also to remember . that the Argument , that wee grounde of S. Augustines woordes , holdeth not , as it is here imagined , from Special to General : but from the imperfection , and weakenesse of the wisedome of man , to the stabilitie , and certainetie of Goddes Holy Woorde . And therefore the Olde Learned Father Origen saithe , Origen . in Hieremi . Homi. 1. Micro . in Psal. 86 as it is alleged before , Sensus nostri , & Enarrationes fine his testibus non habent fidem : Our iudgementes , and Expositions without these witnesses ( of the Scriptures ) haue no credite . In like sorte S. Hierome , Quamuis Sanctus sic aliquis post Apostolos , quamuis disertus sit , non habet Authoritatem : After the Apostles of Christe , notwithstandinge somme man be Holy , notwithstandinge he be eloquente , yet he wanteth Authoritie . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , August De Peccator . Merit . & R●mis . li. 1. ca. 22. Cedamus , & consenuamus Scripturae Sacrae , quae nec falli potest , nec fallere : Let vs yeeld , and consente to the Holy Scripture , whiche can neither deceiue , nor be deceiued . For this cause , M. Hardinge , S. Augustine not onely in the mater that laye bitweene him and Pettlianus , but also in al other maters what soeuer , so often appealed from al Fathers , and Councelles vnto the Scriptures .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 3.

Likewise S. Hierome : Al those thinges ( saithe he ) whiche without the Testimonie of the Scriptures , are holden , as deliuered from the Apostles , be throughly smitten downe by the Swerde of Goddes Woorde .

M. Hardinge .

Ye would falne remoue vs from a good hold , I see wel , whiche is the Authoritie of the Holy Fa●thers , of Ancient Traditions , and of the Vniuersal Churche . Al these would ye to be of no force against Heretiques . For ye knowe the Fathers and the Churche to be againste you , and that so longe as they are beleued , your Doctrine shal not be receiued , as alwaies founde to be newe , and of priuate deu●se . If we were driuen from these , ye doubt not but to matche vs wel yenough in the Scriptures . And as ye would handle the mater , I thinke so my selfe verely . For when al Authoritie and iudgemente of the Fathers and of the Churche is shaken quite of in any controuersie , by whome shal we be tried ? By the Scriptures , ye saie . But when bothe ye and we alleage Scriptures to a contrary purpose , and when we vary about the sense of the Scriptures , by whom then shal we be iudged ? Perhaps ye wil referre the iudgement of doubtful maters , to the Holy Ghoste . We refuse not th arbitrement and Vmpiership of the Holy Ghoste . For the same hath ben promised by Christe to the Churche , to remaine with the Churche for euer , to teache what thinges so euer he saide , to lead men into al Truthe .

And thus for iudgemente and trial of Truthe , we shal be retourned to the Churche and to the Fathers , by whom the Holy Ghoste speaketh vnto vs , whose Authoritie and due estimation ye go aboute to remooue from vs .

But let vs see , what force ye bringe to driue vs from this holde . Makinge your batterie against it , what shoote ye of but Winde and Paper ? Your Artillerie makethe a no● es , but it geueth no blowe . As in the laste allegation ye falsified the sense of S. Augustine , so in this ye falsifie bothe the sense and woordes of S. Hierome . The woordes , as ye allege them , seeme to be spoken against what so euer Tradition , of the Apostles . Whiche woordes , or any the like to sutche purpose , were neuer vtered by any Catholike Doctour of the Churche , mutche lesse by S. Hierome . Looke ye againe and vewe better the place , ye shal saye your selues , that I finde the faulte of falsefyeinge in you not without cause .

S. Agg●i . cap. 1. Hierome in his Commentaries vpon those woordes of the Prophete Aggaeus , Et vocaui siccicitatem super t●●ram , & super Montes : I haue called the drought to come vpon the Earthe , and vpon the Hilles , &c. First she winge the literal sense accordingly as the Hebrew woorde there by him noted , signifieth Siccitatem , drought , them treatinge Mystically , as the seuenty Interpreters haue turned that woorde into Romphaeam , Gladius . that is a swerde , and vnderstandinge by the swerde , the Woorde of God : thereof takethe occasion briefly to saie , what this swerde doothe , how it destroieth the negligent soule , whiche is expounded to be drie earthe , and howe it plaguethe Montaines that lifte vp them selues against the knowledge of God , whereby he meanethe Heretikes . Of whom he tellethe , howe they flatter the deceiued peoples with theire Breade , Wine , and Oile , ( by whiche he meaneth theire Heresies ) as it were with meates , and drinkes , and refection .

There Breade ( saithe he ) any man maie very aptly cal it , the Bread of Waylinge , and theyr Wine , the madnesse of Dragons , and the madnesse of Serpentes incurable : And theire Oile the promisinge of Heauenly thinges , wherewith they doo as it were anointe theire Disciples , and promise them rewardes of theire labours : which the Prophete detesteth sayeinge , the Oile of the sinner shal not anoint my head . After this folowe the woordes of S. Hierome whiche ye haue falsified to the intent they might seeme to serue your false meaninge . Sed & alia quae absque Authoritate & Testimonijs Scripturarum , quasi Traditione Apostolica reperiunt atque confingunt , percutit gladius Dei . But the Swerde of God strikethe also other thinges , whiche the Heretiques ( for of the● he speaketh ) deuise and faine of theire owne heades without the Authoritie and witnesses of the Scriptures , as though they came by Tradition from the Apostles . He that compareth this place with your flsified allegation , maie sone espie greate oddes betwene them . For ye make S. Hierome to saie , that al those thinges , whiche without the Testimonies of Scriptures are holde ( so your allowed interpreter tourneth , Asseruntur , ) as deliuered from the Apostles , be throughly smitten downe by the Swerde of Goddes Woorde . By this Swerde of your Goddes Woorde ye woulde quite smite downe al Apostolike Traditions at a blowe . But thanked be God , that your Swerde is a forged Swerde , a paper Swerde , a Swerde that neither with Edge cutteth , nor with weight beareth downe . S. Hierome putteth not al thinges , whiche we haue by Tradition from the Apostles without the expresse Scriptures , to the Swerde of Goddes Woorde . Scriptures and Doctours . He speaketh not Generally . His woorde is , Alia , other thinges : and ye make it , Omnia , al thinges . Againe he speaketh of sutche thinges as be deuised and fained by Heretikes , of theire owne braine , without Authoritie and Testimonies of the Scriptures : vnto whiche they geue Estimation , as though they came by Tradition from the Apostles . These circumstances and exaggerations doo ye omitte , and saye , that S. Hierome putteth al Apostolike Traditions to that dreadful Swerde of Goddes Worde . Nowe what S. Hierome saithe , wee holde with it , and allowe it wel . But your saienge we refuse , as falsely fathered vpon S. Hierome . What he condemneth , we condemne . Neither can that place be iustly alleaged againste vs : For we inuente not , no fame not any thinges of our own accorde , or of our owne heades , as though they were deliuered by the Apostles besides the Scriptures : that is the parte of Heretikes , specially of the Tatians , as in that place S. Hierome saithe . We finde , deuise , and faine nothinge in the Catholike Religion . We doo but kepe and mainteine thinges Deuised by the Holy Ghoste , and leafte to the Churche by the Apostles , or by Apostolike men , or by the Generall Councelles , whose Authoritie is in the Churche most healthful , saithe S. Austine . But concerninge the force whiche the consent of the Fathers had in the iudgement of S. Hierome , it appeareth in his Epistle to Euagrius : where , by the Authoritie of the Auncient Doctours before his time , he proueth against an Heretike , that Melchisedech was a man of the Lande of Chanaan , and not the Holy Ghost .

The B. of Sarisburie

Faine would M. Hardinge haue his Reader beleeue , that wée vtterly despise al Holy Fathers . But wée despise them not , M. Hardinge , as maye partely appeare , by that wee haue already saide . Wée reade theire woorkes : wée reuerence them : wée geue God thankes for them : wée calle them the Pillers , the Lightes , the Fathers of Goddes Churche : wée despise them not . This thinge onely wée saye : Were theire Learninge , and Holinesse neuer so greate , yet be they not equal in credite with the Scriptures of God .

Thus also saithe S. Augustine , Augusti . contra Cresconi . Gram. Lib. 2. Cap. 29. August . Ad Hieron . Epist. 19. Nos nullam Cypriano facimus iniuriam , cùm eius qua●●ibet literas , à Canonica Diuinarum Scripturarum Authoritate distinguimus : Wee offer no wronge to S. Cyprian , when wee seuer any his Letters , or Writinges , from the Canonical Authoritie of the Holy Scriptures . And againe , ioininge al the Doctours , and ●athers togeather , he saithe thus : Ipse mihi pro his omnibus , imò supra hos omnes Apostolus Paulus occurrit . Ad ipsum confugio : ad ipsum ab omnibus , qui aliter sentìunt , literarum tractatoribus prouoco : In steede of al these Learned Fathers , or iather aboue them al , Paule the Apostle commeth to my minde . To him I renne : To him I appeale from al manner Writers ( Doctours , and Fathers ) that thinke otherwise .

So likewise S. Hierome , Hiero. Ad Tranquillinum , To. 2. Ego Originem propter cruditionem sic interdum legendum arbitror , quomodo Tertullianum , Nouatum , Arnobium , Apollinarium , & nonnullos Ecclesiasticos Scriptores Graecos pariter , & Latinos : vt bona eorum eligamus , vitemúsque contraria : I thinke , that the Auncient Father Origen , in respecte of his Learninge , maye be readde sometimes , as Tertullian , Nouatus , Arnobius , Appollinarius , and sundrie other Ecclesiastical Writers , as wel Greekes , as Latines : that in them wee maye take the good , and flee the contrarie . Of this iudgemente were S. Augustine , S. Hierome , and sundrie others : whose woordes for shortnesse I passe ouer : yet were they not therefore condemned as despisers of the Holy Learned Fathers . Wée remoue you not , as you saye , from your holde , M. Hardinge . This is nothinge els , but a courrage of your countenaunce . The Fathers , ye speake of , are against you . I trust , it appeareth already by your former writinges , that in the Special cases , that lie bitwéene vs , ye haue but fewe Fathers to holde by .

Ye saye , Wée euermore calle you to the Scriptures . This faulte , I hope , is not so hainous . Christe hathe commaunded vs so to doo : Searche ye , saithe Christe , the Scriptures . Iohan. 5. And S. Hilarie saithe vnto the Emperoure Constantius , Fidem , Interpretation of the Scriptures . Imperator , quaeris ? Audi eam , non denouis chartulis , sed de Dei Libris : Doothe youR Maiestie seeke the Faithe ? Heare it then , not out of any newe scrolles , but out of the Bookes of God . He is rather to be suspected , that fléeth the light , and wil not be iudged by the Scriptures .

When the Scriptures be darke , Hilarius ad Imper . Constantium and doubteful , & are alleged of bothe partes , then ye saie , ye refuse not the Vmpéereship , and iudgemente of the Holy Ghoste . But ye adde farther , The Holy Ghost is promised onely to the Churche . Nowe by your opinion there is no Churche , Petrus De Palude , De potestate Papae , Arti. 4. Heruaeus de potest . Papae , ca. 23. but the Churche of Roome . And the Churche of Roome is no Churche without the Pope : For one of your greate Doctours saithe , Potestas Papae solius excedit potestatem totius residuae Ecclesiae : The Popes onely power passethe al the power of the whole Churche bisides : And an other like Doctour saithe , Papa virtualiter est tota Ecclesia : The Pope by power , and vertue is the whole Churche : And thus your reason goethe round aboute , à Primo ad vltimum : Ergo , There is neither Holy Ghoste , nor Interpretation , or sense of the Scriptures , but onely in the Pope . This is , Summa Summarum : whiche thinge being graunted , what should a man séeke any farther ? The whole mater is at an ende .

It is true , As the Scriptures were written by the Sprite of God , so must they be expounded by the same . 2. Petri. 1. Matth. 11. Apoc. 3. Actor . 16. Iohan. 6. For without that Sprite , wée haue neither eares to heare , nor eies to sée . It is that Sprite , that openethe , and noman shuttethe : the same shuttethe , and noman openethe : The same Sprite prepared and opened the Silk womans harte , that shée shoulde geue eare to , and consider the thinges , that were spoken by S. Paule . And in respecte of this sprite the Prophete Esai saithe , Erunt omnes docti à Deo : They shal be al taught of God .

But God hathe not bounde him selfe , that this Sprite should euermore dwel in Rome : Esai . 66. Chrysostom . De Sancto & Adorando Spiritu . but vpon the lowly , and humble harted , that tremblethe at the Woorde of God . Chrysostome saithe : Qui propria loquuntur ▪ falsò praetendunt Spiritum Sanctum : They that speake of them selues , falsely pretende the Holy Ghoste . And againe , Si quid praeter Euangelium sub titulo Spiritus obtrudatur , ne credamus . Quia sicut Christus Legis , & Prophetarum impletio . est , ita est Spiritus Euangelij : If any thinge be brought vnto vs vnder the Name of the Holy Ghoste , bisides the Gospel , let vs not beleue it . For as Christe is the fulfillinge of the Lawe and the Prophetes : so is the Holy Ghoste the fulfillinge of the Gospel .

Nowe , with what Sprite the Bishoppes of Rome haue expounded vnto vs the Holy Scriptures of God , wée shal shewe it hereafter , as fitter occasion shal require .

Here , you saye , wée haue corrupted bothe the woordes , and the sense of S. Hierome : That we haue taken , Omnia , in stéede of , Alia : And that you haue diuised , and made nothinge of your selues : that S. Hierome meante not heereby the Traditions of the Apostles , but onely the fonde fantastes , and dreames of the Heretiques called Tatians .

Of al these thinges , wée must néedes confesse , one thinge is true . In déede wée tooke , Omnia , in stéede of , Alia : and so by ouersight gaue some occasion vnto the quareler . Howe be it I doubt not , but the indifferente gentle Reader wil soone pardonne that faulte . It procéeded onely of negligence , & not of malice . Notwithstandinge this wante maie easily be supplied by a sufficient Commentarie . Matt. 15. Omnis . For Christe saith , Omnis , plantatio , quam non plantauerit Pater meus Coelestis , eradicabitur . Euery plante , that my heauenly Father hathe not planted , shal be rooted out . Here , M. Hardinge , ye may borrowe , Omnia , to healpe S. Hierome .

Or , Cyprian Lib. 1. Epist. 8. Quodcunque . if this like you not , S. Cyprian maye telle you , Adulterum est , Impium est , Sacrilegum est , quodcunque humano furore instituitur , vt Dispositio Diuina violetur : It is aduoùterous , it is wicked , it is abominable , what so euer is ordered by the rashenesse of man , that Goddes order shoulde be broken .

It is true , S. Hierome speakethe not these woordes of the Traditions of the Apostles : It is true . Yet , M. Hardinge , he speakethe these woordes of sutche fantasies , as were brought into the Churche of God , and magnified vnder the name and colour of the Traditions of the Apostles . Euseb. li. 3. ca. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Anno. 1548. Illyricus de Sect. Pag. 109. In Confe. Petricouien . De Ceremoniis , Pag. 289. Copus Angl. Dial. 2. Pag. 194. Copus Angl. Dial. 2. Pag. 284. Iohan 16. 2 Cor. 1● So Eusebius saithe , The Heretique Cherinthus brought vs in his owne Monstrous Diuises , vnder the pretense of Reuelations , as written by some greate Apostle .

Sutche , M. Hardinge , be your Inuentions , wherewith ye haue of longe time deceiued the worlde . One of your companions the Suffragane of Sidon , at the late diete at Augusta , in the presence of the whole Empiere , doubted not to saie , that your whole Canon woorde by worde , euen as it is nowe vsed in your Masses , came directly from the Apostles . Your Hosius of Polonia saithe , that the Apostles appointed your orders of Monkes . An other of your side saithe , Christus Dux , & Signifer Vitae Monasticae : Christe was the Captaine , and standerd bearer of Monkes life : Imagininge , I trowe , that Christe was an Abbate . And yet afterwarde the same Doctour , either by some obliuion , or els vpon somme better remembrance , saithe thus : Elias , & Elizaeus D●ces Instituti Benedictini : Elias , and Elizaeus were the firste Captaines of S. Benettes Order . And you , M. Hardinge , haue tolde vs often , that ye haue your Priuate Masse , your Halfe Communion , and I knowe not what els , al from the Apostles . And al this ye prooue . God wote , by ful simple coniectures , bicause Christe saithe to his Apostles , I haue many thinges to saye vnto you : but ye are not hable to beare them yet : And bicause S. Paule saithe to the Corinthians , I wil order the reste , when I comme . Hereby ye beare vs in hande , that al your moste triflinge Vanities were brought vnto you by S. Paule euen from the thirde Heauens .

And although it were true , that ye saie , ye haue not diuised these thinges of of your selues , but haue receiued them al from the Apostles , and Holy Fathers , whiche thinge your conscience knowethe to be moste vntrue , yet notwithstanding the same thinges so receiued ye haue sithence fouly defaced with sundry your superstitions . Ye haue made them necessarie to Saluation : ye haue bounde the people to them no lesse then to the Lawe of God : & so haue ye made them snares of Christian consciences . Although the thing it selfe came from the Fathers , yet the abuse therof came from your selues : and for the same ye haue taught the people to breake Goddes expresse commaundement . Esai . 1. Matt. 23. Matt. 16. Thus haue you blended Goddes heauenly wine with your puddle water : Thus haue ye strained gnattes , and swalowed camelles . This is the very Leauen of the Scribes , & Phariseis , whiche Christe calleth Hypocrisie . Therfore al be it the thinge it selfe , ye haue thus receiued , in respecte of substance be al one : yet now , beinge thus abused , in respecte of your Superstitions , and deformities , it is not one .

The Apostles , and Holy Fathers , vsed Oile : yet they vsed it not , as ye doo , for the Saluation of Body and Soule .

Moses erected vp the Brasen Serpente in the wildernesse : Num. 21. Iohan. 3. Ioel. cap. 1. Yet not to be adoured with Godly honoure , as it folowed afterwarde .

God commaunded the people to faste : yet not with Hypocrisie , as the wicked fasted . And therefore God saithe vnto them , Non est hoc leiunium , quod ego elegi : This is not the fastinge , Esai . 1 & 58. that I haue chosen .

God commaunded the people to kepe the Calendes , and Newe Moones : Yet not with sutche Superstition , and Abuses , as the people kepte them . And therfore God saide vnto them , Esai . 1. Matth. 23. Who required these thinges at your handes ?

God commaunded sundrie Bathinges , and Wasshinges : yet vnto them , that moste precisely vsed the same , Christe saide : Woe be vnto you ye Scribes , and Phariseis : in vaine they woorship mee , teachinge the Commaundementes and Doctrines of menne .

Yet you , M. Hardinge , haue infeaffed the Apostles of Christe , not onely with the Substance of the thinges , whiche , ye saye , ye haue receiued by Tradition , but also with al your Abuses , Superstitions , Corruptions , and Idolatries : whiche ye haue diuised of your selues . And therein ye wel resemble the Tatian Heretiques , of whome onely , ye saye , S. Hierome speaketh . But whether S. Hierome meante onely , I knowe not what fantastical dreames of the Tatians , ( as you imagine onely of your selfe , without proufe , in particulare naminge nothinge ) or els also al sutche Superstitious Vanities , as wee haue often , and iustly reprooued in you , it maye soone appeare by these woordes immediately folowinge : Omnem laborem manuum , Hieronym . in Aggae . Cap. 1. & Ieiunia corum , & obseruationes varias , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , humi dormitiones : Al theire hande Labour , and theire Fastinges , and their Obseruations , and Vsages , and harde Sleepinge on the grounde . These and sutche other like be the thinges , whiche , menne imagine , came from the Apostles , and are striken & consumed with the Swerde of Goddes Woorde .

Thus , M. Hardinge , notwithstandinge your longe Glose biside the Texte , séemeth to be the very meaninge of S. Hierome .

Yf ye wil yet force the contrarie , and turne al from your selues to the Tatians , as you doo , the very two lines nexte folowinge muste néedes make you blushe at your owne errour . The woordes are these , Haec autem vniuersa , quae dixi , possunt de Ecclesiae Rectoribus intelligi : Al these thinges , that I haue spoken , maye be vnderstanded of the Rulers of the Churche . Tel vs nomore therefore , M. Hardinge , of your Tatians . For S. Hierome him selfe telleth you , he meante not onely them , but also the Bishoppes , and Rulers of the Churche . And a little before he saithe , Inferrur gladius super Montes eleuantes se aduersus scientiam Dei : The Swerde of Goddes Woorde is laide vpon the Mountaines , that lifte them selues vp againste the knowledge of God .

In this sense writeth S. Cyprian . Ad Pompeium . Cyprian : Si ad Diuinae Traditionis Caput , & Originem reuertamur , cessat omnis error humanus : Yf wee returne to the Head , and beginninge of our Lordes Tradition , al errour of Man muste needes geue place .

In like sense also writeth Tertullian : Tertull. De Praescrip. Haere . Ipsa Doctrina Haereticorum cum Apostolica comparata , ex diuersitate , & contrarietate sua pronuntiabit , neque Apostoli alicuius Authoris esse , neque Apostolici : The verie Doctrine of Heretiques compared with the Apostles Doctrine , by the diuersitie and contrarietie , that is bitweene that , and the other , wil soone pronounce sentence of it selfe , that neither Apostle , nor Apostolique man was authour of it .

Euen thus it fareth , M. Hardinge , with a greate heape of your Doctrine . Ye saie , ye haue it by Tradition from the Apostles . Yet is it vtterly voide of al authoritie , or testimonie of the Scriptures . And therefore , as S. Hierome saithe , it is consumed & striken downe in the Conscience of the Godly , by the onely Swerde of Goddes Holy Woorde , as our eies sée this daye : and beinge compared with the Apostles Doctrine , ( the difference , & contrarietie is so greate ) it easily bewraieth it selfe , as Tertullian saithe , that it neuer came from any Apostle , nor from any other Apostolique Doctour of the Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 4.

S. Ambrose also to Gratian the Emperour : Let the Scripture ( saithe he ) be asked the question , lette the Prophetes be asked , and let Christe be asked . For at that time made the Catholique Fathers and Bishoppes no doubte , but that our Religion mighte be prooued out of the Holy Scriptures . Neither were they euer so hardy to take any for an Heretique , whose errour they coulde not euidently and apparantly reprooue by the selfe same Scriptures . And wee verily doo make answeare on this wise , as S. Paule did : Accordinge to this waye whiche they calle Heresie , wee doo woorshippe God , and the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe : and doo allowe al thinges whiche haue benne written either in the Lawe , or in the Prophetes , or in the Apostles Woorkes .

M. Hardinge .

Gratian the Emperour bucklinge him selfe as it were to encounter with the Heretike , at the firste he geueth meaninge to al to be ware of him , for that he endeuoureth to prooue his false Doctrine , ( namely for the first pointe , that the Sonne is vnlike the Father ) Versutis disputationibus , Cap. 2. With suttel and craftie reasoninges . He alleageth to that purpose , S. Paule to the Colossians , Cauere ue quis vos depraedetur pes Philosophiam : Beware that no man spoile you through Philosophie , and vaine deceit , &c. For ( saithe be ) these Heretikes put al the force of theire poisons in Logike , or Dialectical disputation , whiche by the opinion of Philosophers is desined , not to haue power to prooue , but an earnest desire to destroie and disproue . Hauinge geuen this holesome warninge , lest him selfe might seeme to vse that , whiche he counselleth others to beware of : to withde awe the Emperour and al other from the guileful Logike of Arius , Ambres . De Fide Lib. 1. Cap. 4. at his firste entrie he saithe : I wil not that thou geue credite , Holy Emperour , to argument , and to our Disputation , ( then folowe the woordes . Whereof the Defenders take holde , ) Scripturas interrogemus , &c. Let vs aske the Scriptures , let vs aske the Apostles , let vs aske the Prophetes , let vs aske Christe : What neede many woordes ? let vs aske the Father , &c.

And to this pointe of our beleefe , whiche is very highe and secrete , is that sayinge of S. Ambrose to be restrained . But that for confirmation of the Truthe in pointes whiche be nearer to common sense , and for confutation of those Heresies whiche be of lesse subteltie , of whiche sorte these Gospellers grosse errours be , to this ende that wee ought not to vse the Testimonies of the Holy Fathers against Heretikes , Vntruthe . ( for whiche purpose they alleage this place : ) S. Ambrose neither in al that Booke , neither in al his woorkes speaketh so muche as one woorde .

But contrarie wise in sundry places of that woorke be alleageth the auctoritie of the Nicene Councel , as a Testimonie of good force against the Arians , and declareth a diuine Mysterie to haue benne signified by suche special number of the Fathers there assembled : Sayinge , Sic nempe nostri secundum Scripturas dixerunt Patres : Euen thus , accordinge to the Scriptures , haue the Fathers saide . Seruemus Praecepta maiorum , &c. Let vs keepe the Preceptes of our Forefathers , neither with Temeritie of rude boldnes let vs breake the Hereditarie Seales , ( he meaneth the Doctrine sealed by the Fathers , and left to the posteritie as it were by Heritage ) . Whiche of vs wil be so hardy , as to vnseale the Priestly Booke , sealed by the Confessours , and nowe consecrated with the Martyrdome of many a one ? Lo heare ye not Sirs * * Nothing . howe muche S. Ambrose is against you ?

And though he saye , touchinge this Mysteries Let vs aske the Scriptures , Apostles , Prophetes , and Christe : yet thereby dothe he not quite exclude the Fathers . He saithe not , let vs reiect the Fathers . The Scriptures and the Fathers be not contrary : and therefore th allowinge of them , is not the disalowinge of these . Who so euer maketh this argument , * * Vntruth . whiche in your Woorde is implied , The Scriptures are to be asked , Ergo , the Holy Fathers are not to be asked , maketh a foolishe argument .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The greattest forte hereof is answeared already . S. Ambrose , ye saye , by this appeale to the Scriptures , excludeth not the iudgement of the Learned Fathers , but onely the cau●●lations , and subtileties of Philosophers and Sophisters . For S. Ambrose him selfe is the same treatie often allegeth the Authoritie of the Fathers . Al this , M. Hardinge , is true in deede ▪ Notwithstandinge there is a certaine secrete Vntruthe lapped in it . For S. Ambrose allegeth the Fathers , not as Groundes , or Principles , or Fundations of the Faithe : but onely as Interpreters , or Witnesses , or Consenters vnto the Faithe : Whiche thinge of our parte was neuer denied . Nowe , whether S. Ambrose meante thus , Scriptures and Doctours . or no , let S. Ambrose him selfe he the Iudge . Ambr. Ad Cratia . De Fide , li. 1. His woordes be these , Sic nempe nostri secundum Scripturas dixerunt Patres : Thus haue our Fathers saide ( not of them selues , but ) accordinge to the Scriptures . He allegeth the Fathers , not as hauinge sufficient credite and substance in them selues , but onely as Expounders , and Interpreters of the Scriptures .

So saithe the godly Father Athanasius : Athanas . De Humanitate Verbi . Nos ista Hausimus à Magistris diuinitùs afflatis , qui Sacros Libros euoluerunt : These thinges haue we learned of our Maisters ( or Fathers ) inspired from Heauen , whiche haue Readde and perused the Holy Scriptures . For S. Augustine very wel saithe , August . Contra Cresconi . Gramma . Li. 2 Ca. 29. Hierony . in Episto . ad Ephes. Lib. 3. Cap. 5. Secundum hos Libros de coeteris Literis , vel Fidelium , vel Infidelium liberè iudicamus : Accordinge to those Bookes of the Scriptures wee iudge frankely of al other writinges , whether they be of the Faitheful , or of the Vnfaitheful . Therefore S. Hierome saithe , Omni studio legendae nobis sunt Scripturae , & in Lege Domini meditandum die ac nocte : vt probati trapezitae sciamus , quis numus probus sit , quis adulterinus : Wee muste Reade the Scriptures with al diligence , and muste bee occupied in the Lawe of our Lorde bothe daie and nighte : that wee maye become perfite exchangers , and be hable rightly to discerne , what Monie is lawful , and what is Counterfaite . S. Hilarie saithe , Hoc proprium est Apostolicae . Doctrinae , Deum ex Lege , ac Prophetis in Euangelijs praedicare : Hilari . in Psal. 65. This is the very order of the Apostles Doctrine , in the Gospel to Preache God out of the Lawe and the Prophetes .

Otherwise , touchinge the discourse of natural reason , S. Ambrose saithe , No Creature either in Earthe , or in Heauen is hable to reache the deapthe of these thinges . Thus he saithe : Mens deficit : Vox silet , non mea tantùm , sed Angelorum . Supra potestates , Ambro. ad Gratianum de Fide , Lib. 1. Cap. 5. supra Angelos , supra Cherubim , supra Seraphim , supra omnem sensum est : The minde is astonned : the voice faileth , not onely mine , but also of the Angelles . It is aboue the powers , aboue the Angelles , aboue the Cherubius , aboue the Seraphins , and aboue al manner vnderstandinge . And therefore he saithe , as it is alleaged once before , Nolo nobis credatur : Scriptura recitetur : Ambros . De Incarnationis Dominicae Sacracramen . Ca. 3. Non ego dico à me , In principio erat Verbum , Sed audio : I woulde not , ye shoulde beleeue mee : Lette the Scriptures be readde : I saye not of mee selfe , In the beginninge was the Woorde : but I heare it spoken . And againe he saithe in the same Booke vnto the Emperour Gratian : Ambros . ad Gratian . Imperator . Lib. 1. Cap. 7. Facessat nostra Sententia : Paulum interrogemus : Let our Iudgemente stande aparte : and let vs aske S. Paule the question .

But M. Hardinge saithe , Whoso euer maketh this argumente , whiche in your Woorde is implied , The Scriptures are to be asked : Ergo , the Holy Fathers are not to be asked , maketh a foolishe argumente .

It seemeth no greate pointe of Wisedome , M. Hardinge , to vpbraide others with folie without cause : God encrease bothe you and vs in al wisedome , and vnderstandinge in Christe Iesu . How be it , our Argumente , howe so euer it hathe pleased you to fashon , and to handle it , as we meante it , and made it , had no sutche Folie . Wherefore , what so euer Folie is nowe come to it , it is your owne : it is not ours . For wée denie not the Learned Fathers expositions , and iudgementes in doubteful cases of the Scriptures . Wée reade them our selues : Wée folowe them : Wée embrace them : and , as I saide before , wée moste humbly thanke God for them . But thus wée saie , The same Fathers opinions , and iudgementes , for as mutche as they are sometimes disagréeable one from an other , and sometimes implie contrarieties , and contradictions , therefore alone , and of them selues , without farther authoritie , and guidinge of Goddes Woorde , are not alwaies sufficient Warrantes to charge our Faithe . And thus the Learned Catholique Fathers themselues haue euermore taught vs to esteeme , and to weighe the Fathers .

The Ancient Father Origen saithe thus , as it is reported before ; Ex Solis Scripturis examinationis nostrae discretio petenda est : The discussinge of our Iudgemente , muste be taken Onely of the Scriptures . And againe , Sensus nostri , & enarrationes sine Scripturis testibus non habent fidem : Origen . in Epist. ad Roma . Lib. 10. Cap. 16. Ex Solis . Origen . in Hieremt . Homi. 1. August . De Natura & Gratia , Ca 61. Our Iudgementes , and Expositions without witnesse of the Scriptures haue no credite . Likewise S. Augustine , Ego Solis Canonicis Scripturis debeo sine vlla recusatione consensum : My consent without exception I owe ( not vnto any Father , were he neuer so wel learned , but ) Onely to the Holy Canonical Scriptures . His reason is this : Nam cùm Dominus ●acuerit , quis nostrum dicat , Illa , vel illa sunt ? Aut si dicere audet , vnde probat ? For where as the Lorde him selfe hath not spoken , who of vs can saie , It is this , or that ? Or if he dare saie so , howe can he prooue it ?

And therefore he concludeth directly and in like woordes with S. Ambrose : Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta . 96. August . De Pastorib . Ca. 14. Ego vocem Pastoris inquiro . Lege hoc mihi de Propheta : Lege de Psalmo : Recita de Lege : Recita de Euangelio : Recita de Apostolo : I require the voice of the Shephearde : Reade me this mater out of the Prophete : Reade it mee out of the Psalmes : Reade it out of the Lawe : Reade it out of the Gospel : Reade it out of the Apostles .

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision . 1.

Wherefore if wee he Heretiques , and they ( as they woulde faine be called ) be Catholiques , why doo they not , as they see the Fathers , whiche were Catholique men , haue alwaies donne ? Why doo they not conuince and maister vs by the Diuine Scriptures ? Why doo they not calle vs againe to be tried by them ? Why doo they not laye before vs , howe wee haue gonne awaye from Christe , from the Prophetes , from the Apostles , and from the Holy Fathers ?

Why sticke they to doo it ? Why are they afraide of it ? It is Goddes cause : Why are they doubteful to commit it to the trial of Goddes Woorde ? Yf wee be Heretiques whiche referre al our controuersies vnto the Holy Scriptures , & reporte vs to the selfe same Woordes , whiche wee knowe were sealed by God him selfe , and in comparison of them , sette litle by al other thinges , what so euer maye be diuised by menne , how shal wee saye to these folke , I praye you : what manner of men be they , and howe is it meete to calle them , whiche feare the iudgement of the Holy Scriptures , that is to saie , the Iudgement of God him selfe , and doo preferre before them theire owne dreames , and ful colde inuentions : and to maintaine theire owne Traditions , haue defaced and corrupted nowe these many hundred yeeres the ordinances of Christe , and of the Apostles ?

M. Hardinge .

We doo so . For they condemned those that went against the Tradition of the Fathers , and so doo wee . Iohan. 14. The Scriptures consiste not in inke and paper , but in the sense . Whiche sense the Holy Ghoste by Christes promise hath taught the Churche .

Epiphanius refutinge the Heretikes whiche named them selues Apostolikes , Haereei . 61. Scripture nesdeth Speculation . Tradition necessa●ie , bicause Scripture hathe not al thinges . Recognition . Lib. 10. saithe , that the Scriptures haue neede of Speculation that is to witte , to be wel studied and considered ) to the ende the force and power of euery argument maye be knowen . It behoueth vs also ( saithe he ) to vse the Tradition : For wee can not haue al thinges of the Holy Scripture . Thus Epiphanius . By Tradition without doubte he meaneth the sense and vnderstandinge receiued of the Fathers . For that is the Keie of the Woorde of God , as S. Peter taught , by report of S. Clement . This sense and vnderstandinge of the Lawe had the Ministers of the Lawe , to whome the Traditions of Moses and of the Elders came as it were by handes . Nowe wee require you to admitte this Tradition , that is to saye , the Catholike sense and vnderstandinge of the Scriptures , whiche hathe benne deliuered vnto vs by the Holy Fathers of al Ages , and of al Countries , where the Faithe hath benne receiued . And then we wil calle you againe to be tried by the Scriptures .

This haue the Catholikes layde before you oftentimes , and this doo we shewe you in this Confutation . L●c. 10. He that despiseth you , despiseth mee , saithe Christe of his Churche . Ye despise the Catholike Churche , and therefore ye despise Christe .

What neede so many questions Sirs ? Your hote Rhetorike sheweth more courage in woorde , then Victorie in deede . Ye calle vs foorthe to the Scriptures , Great bragges made by the Defenders , of th assurance of the Scriptures . as it were to the fielde . Ye strike vs downe with woordes , before ye come to encounter . To shewe your brauerie in the mo●stre , ye referre your controuersies vnto the Holy Scriptures , ye reporte you vnto the woordes sealed by God himselfe : but we the Catholikes , as ye pretende , sticke at it : we be afraide of it , we doubte of th● mater , we feare the Iudgement of Holy Scriptures , we preferre our owne dreames and colde inuentions . Wel , nowe that ye haue tolde your lusty tale , heare our sober answeare . Often● times the true Scriptures are stretched foorthe to serue euil and false purposes . The Iewes went about by the Scriptures to prooue , that Christe was not so muche as a I●ophete . Iohan. 7. For they saide , * * Vntruth : For the woordes are otherwise . Searche the Scriptures , and see , that a Prophete riseth not out of Galiley . By the Scriptures they would needes shewe him woorthy to die . Iohan. 19. We haue a Lawe , quod they , and by our Lawe he ought to die , because he hath made him selfe the Sonne of God The Diuel by alleaginge Scripture , would haue deceiued our Sauiour him selfe , and saide vnto him : Scriptum est , Matth. 4. De Fide . li. 2. c. ● Marke . 10. It is written . The Arians were ful of the Scriptures , and by the same , as S. Ambrose writeth , went about to prooue , that Christe the author of al goodnesse was not good . It is written , quoth they , Nemo bonus nisi vnus Deus , None is good , but onely God . Likewise the Macedonians , the Nestorians , the Eutychians .

Now in this case , your selues dooinge the like , what may wee doo better , then honour the Scriptures , and seeke for their right Sense and Vnderstandinge ? Scriptum est , It is Scripture ( saith S. Ambrose to the allegation of the Arians ) I acknowlege , but the letter hath not the errour : woulde God the Arians interpretation had not . Apices sine crimine sunt , sensus in crimine . The letters be without crime : the sense is in crime . Hilari . De Trinita . Li. ● . From the vnderstanding commeth Heresie , not from the Scripture : the sense , not the woorde , becommeth to be a crime , saith S. Hilary , Sithens then al standeth in the sense , let vs agree first vpon the sense and interpretation of the Scriptures : and then if we be not as ready as ye , come foorth when ye liste , vpbraide vs hardely , and say lustely , as here ye doo , why sticke they to doo it ? why are they afraide of it ?

As for the true sense and interpretation of the Scriptures , where shal wee finde it , but , as before wee saide , Matthae 7. Iohan. 4. Esai . 59. in the Catholike Churche ? The Churche hauinge Christe remaininge with it al daies to the ende of the worlde , hauinge by promise of Christe the Sprite of truethe , remaininge in it for euer , hauing by Goddes owne ancient promise bothe the woordes , whiche the Father hath put in the mouthe of Christe , and the Sprite whiche he putte in him , whereby it may vnderstand the meaninge of Goddes woordes : wee maie not now seeke for the true sense , vnderstanding , and interpretation of the Scriptures any where , but in the Churche . Your owne Doctour Iohn Caluine him selfe ▪ In Epist. ad H●braeos . whom ye folowe and esteeme so mutche , admonisheth very wel , and saithe , it is specially to be noted , that out of the Churche there is no light of the sounde vnderstandinge of the Scriptures . This ground beinge laide , on whiche eche parte must stande and be tried in , crowe no more againste vs , boast your selues no more : Vntruthe . We feare not the iudgement of the Holy Scriptures . Nay it is your selues , that feare this iudgment . For your owne conscience telleth you that on this ground ye are the weaker side . Yf ye stande with vs on this grounde , ye shal neuer be able to defende your Maister Iohn Caluines doctrine touchinge Baptisme , Vntruthe . For he debaseth not the Sacrament of Baptisme whiche h●●●aketh to be of so litle force , against the manifest Scripture : Let euery one of you ( saithe S. Peter ) be Baptized in the name of Iesus Christe , to Remission of Sinnes . Keepinge this grounde * * Vntruth . ye shal be borne from your Doctrine touchinge Absolution , denyinge the Prieste to haue power to absolue penitentes by his Priestly Auctoritie , but by Preachinge the Gospel to them , contrarie to the plaine Scripture : Whose Sinnes ye ●orgeue , they are forgeuen to them : Whose ye retaine , they are reteined . Yf ye refuse not this grounde , ye shal be forced to restore the Sacrament of extreme Vnction ▪ and the vse of Holy Oyle againe , whiche ye haue abandoned .

For what haue ye to saye against the Scripture , Iacob . 5. It any sicke amonge you ? Let him cause the Priestes of the Churche to come in to him , anointinge him with Oile , in the name of our Lorde ? Ab●dinge in this grounde , ye shal be driuen to forsake your Zwinglian doctrine , whiche putteth Signes and Figures I onely in the Sacrament of the Aultar , for the True and Real Body of Christe there 2 presente . Three and dente Vntruthes . contrarie to the 3 cleare Scripture , This is my Bodie . Beinge on this grounde , ye shal soone geue ouer the maintenance of the Doctrine of your special Faithe , and of your Iustification by Faithe onely , Iacob . 2. as beinge contrary to the plaine Scripture , Man is iustified by woorkes , and not by Faithe onely . To conclude ( for , to shewe in howe many pointes ye maye be confuted by euident Scriptures , it were in maner infinite ) if ye wil admitte this for a good grounde , as ye midste needes admitte : then shal ye not mainteine the Presumptuous Doctrine of your certaintie of Grace and Saluation , contrary to that S. Paule counselleth , Philip. 2. With feare and tremblinge woorke your Saluation .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Whereas wée make reasonable request● , that God maye be vmpéere in his owne cause , and that al our controuersies maye be iudged , and tried by the Holy Scriptures , M. Hardinge thereto answeareth thus : The Scripture standeth not in the Wordes , but in the Sense : and the same Sense is continued by Tradition in the Churche . Otherwise , he saithe , the Iewes , the Arians , the Nestorians , the Eutychians , and al other Heretiques were alwaies hable to claime by the Scriptures . To conclude , he maketh vp a greate emptie heape , of the force of Baptisme , of Holy Oile , of Extreme Unction , of Absolution of Signes , of Figures , of Onely Faithe , and , as it liketh him to calle it , of the Presumptuous Doctrine of the Certainetie of Saluation : in euery of whiche thinges , he saithe , the Scriptures are cleare of his side , and directly against vs .

To answears al these pointes in particulare , it would require an other Booke . But briefely to touche so mutche onely , as shal be néedeful , First , that the Substance of the Scriptures standeth in the right Sense , and Meaninge , and not onely in the naked , and bare woordes , it is true , and generally graunted without exception , and needeth no farther proufe . Hiero●y . contra Luciferian . Hilari . De Triuitate , Li. 4. S. Hierome saithe , Non in Legendo , sed in Intelligendo Scripturae consistunt : The Scriptures stande , not in the Readinge , but in the Vnderstandinge . And S. Hilarie , Non Diuinorum dictorum , sed intelligentiae nostrae à nobis ratio praestanda est : Wee muste yeelde an accoumpte , not of Goddes Diuine Woordes , but of our owne Expositions .

But if that onely be the right Meaninge , and Sense of the Scriptures , that within these fewe late hundred yéeres is cropen into the Churche of Rome : and if it be al Gospel , what so euer it bée , that arriueth from thence : and if they be al Heretiques , and Schismatiques , and Despisers of Christe , and of the Apostles , and of the Uniuersal Churche , that make staie at it , or cannot receiue it , then is the whole mater already concluded : wée shal néede no more adoo .

Ye saie , The Iewes , the Arians , the Nestorians , and other Heretiques alleged the Scriptures . Yea verily , M. Hardinge , and that euen with like Faithe , and in like Sense , and to like purpose , as you allege them nowe : as hereafter , I truste , it shal appeare . By the waye , for example hereof , in this very place , where you allege the woordes of the Pharise is auouchinge the Scriptures , Iohan. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Chrysostom . Augustinus . it maye please you to remember , that either witingly , or of some errour , and ouersight , ye haue manifestly corrupted the Scriptures . For , whereas you haue translated the place thus , Searche the Scriptures : the Phariseis saide nothinge els , but Scrurare , & Vide , Searche , and see : and spake not one woorde of the Scriptures . And although the mater importe not mutche , yet to charge you with your owne rule , whiche muste needes be good against your selfe , any smal faulte in Goddes Woorde must be counted greate . In deede S. Chrysostome , and S. Augustine séeme to supplie this woorde , Scriptures , although it were not in the Texte .

Touchinge the mater it selfe , Oile . Figure . Signe . Nicolas Lyra saithe , Nicol. Lyra in 7. Cap. Iohan. Hoe Verbum eorum simpliciter falsum est . Quia , si intelligatur de Prohetis generaliter , aliqui fuerunt nati de Galilaea : videlicet , Elizaeus , Tobias , & Debora Prophetissa , & fortè plures alij ; This woorde of the Phariseis is plainely false . For if it be taken generally of al Prophetes , then were there certaine of them borne in Galilei , namely Elizaeus , Tobias , Debora , and perchance others moe . In sutche sorte , M. Hardinge , euen with like Faithe and credite , you also haue vsed , to allege the Scriptures .

But whereto driue you al this longe tale ? Wil you in the ende conclude thus : The Iewes , and Heretiques alleged the Scriptures : Ergo , Faitheful Christians maye not allege them ? Or thus , Théeues haue sometimes armed them selues : Ergo , True menne maye not be armed ? Nay , wée maye rather saye thus vnto you : The Iewes , and Heretiques alleged the Scriptures : What accoumpte then maye wée make of you , that flée , and condemne , and burne the Scriptures ?

Certainely notwithstandinge the Phariseis , Iohan. 5. and Heretiques wickedly misalleged the Scriptures , as ye sometimes doo to scrue your purpose , yet for al that , Christe saide vnto them , Scrutamini Scripturas : Searche the Scriptures : And , Cap. 9. Diuisi . ● as it is saide before , the Catholique learned Fathers in al theire cases , and controuersies appealed euermore to the Scriptures .

Where you saye , The Scriptures are so cleare of your side ▪ and make so directly againste vs : would God ye woulde in deede , and vnfainedly stande to that trial . Your fansies , and folies woulde soone come to grounde .

Touchinge your greate heape of examples , of the Sacramente of Baptisme defaced , as you saye , by M. Caluine : of Absolution , of Extreme Unction , of Holy Oile , of Signes , of Figures , of Onely Faithe , & of the certainetie of Saluation , whiche you calle Presumptuous : Firste of the Sacramente of Baptisme , M. Caluine euery where writeth with al manner reuerence , callinge it a Diuine , and an Heauenly Mysterie , and the Sacramente of our Redemption : Wherein also sometimes he iustly reprooueth you , for that ye haue so many waies , so profanely , and so vnreuerently abused the same . Of Absolution wée shal haue occasion to saye more hereafter .

Touchinge your Oile , in déede in shewe of woordes , S. Iames séemeth to make somewhat for you . Notwithstandinge neither doothe he calle it Holy Oile , as ye doo : neither doothe he calle it a Sacramente of the Churche : nor doothe he saye , as ye saie , it should serue for the Saluation of Body , and Soule : nor doothe he teache you to salute it , and to speake vnto it , as to a liuely , and reasonable Creature , Aue Sanctum Oleum , Alhaile Holy Oile : nor with these woordes to minister it vnto the sicke : Per hanc Sanctam Vnctionem , & suam pijssimam Misericordiam , ignoscat tibi Deus : By this Holy enointinge , and his deere mercie , God Pardonne thee . To be shorte , it was a miraculous gifte of Healinge , lastinge onely , as other like Miracles did , for the time : not a necessary Sacramente of the Churche to continewe for euer .

As for the Obiection of Signes , and Figures , for shortnesse of time , The. 12. Article . I muste referre thée , gentle Reader , vnto my Former Replie to M. Harding . The woordes of Christe , whiche are thought to be so plaine , the Anciente Learned Father Tertullian expoundeth thus : Tertullian . contra Marcion . Lib. 4. Figure . Signe . Hoc est Corpus meum : Hoc est , Figura Corporis mei : This is my Body : that is to saye , This is a Figure of my Body . Likewise S. Augustine , Non dubitauit Dominus dicere , Hoc est Corpus meum , cùm daret Signum Corporis sui : Our Lorde doubted not to saye , This is my Body , when he gaue a Signe of his Body .

To rehearse al other like Ancient Authorities , it were too longe . O what triumphes would M. Hardinge make , if none of al the Olde Learned Fathers coulde be founde , that euer had called the Sacrament , the Signe , and Figure of Christes Body ? But , as before he alleged an imagined Sense of the Scriptures without woordes , Onely Faithe . so nowe he allegeth the woordes alone without sense . He shoulde haue remembred better , that S. Hierome saithe , Ne putemus , Hierony in ●pist . ad Gala. Cap. ● . in Verbis Scripturarum esse Euangelium , sed in Sensu : Let vs not thinke , the Gospel standeth in the Woordes of the Scriptures , but in the Meaninge .

Twoo other greate quarelles M. Hardinge moueth : the one of Onely Faithe : the other , as he calleth it , of the Presumptuous Certainetie of Saluation . Wherein iudge thou vprightly , good Christian Reader , how iuste cause he hath to reprooue our Doctrine .

As for the firste hereof , Roma . ● . S. Paule saithe , Iustificamur Gratis ex Gratia ipsius : Wee be Iustified Freely of his Grace : wee Iudge that a man is Iustified by Faithe , without the Workes of the Lawe : Wee knowe , that a man is not Iustified by the Woorkes of the Lawe , but by the Faithe of Christe . M. Hardinge wil saie , Yet hitherto of , Sola Fides , that is , of Onely Faithe , wée heare nothinge . Notwithstandinge , when S. Paule excludeth al manner Woorkes bisides Onely Faithe , what els then leaueth he , but Faithe alone ?

How be it , if it be so horrible an Heresie , to saye , Wée be Iustified before God by Onely Faithe , that is to saie , Onely by the Merites & Crosse of Christe , let vs sée , what the Holy Learned Fathers of the Churche so many hundred yéeres agoe , haue taught vs thereof .

S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . in ●pist ad Roman . Cap 4. Iustificati sunt Gratis , quia nihil Operantes , neque vicem reddentes , Sola Fide Iustificati sunt dono Dei : They are Iustified Freely : Bicause woorkinge nothinge and requitinge nothinge , Ambros . Eodem loco they are Iustified by Onely Faithe through the gifte of God . Againe , Sic decretum est à Deo , vt , cessante Lege , Solam Fidem Gratia Dei posceret ad Salutem : This was Goddes determination , that , the Lawe surceasinge , the Grace of God shoulde require Onely Faithe vnto Saluation . Ambros . in Epist. ad Roma . Ca. 9. Basil . De Humintlitate : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Theodorer . De Curandis Graecorum affectibus . Lib. 7. Nazia● . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Origen . in Epist. ad Roma . C● . 3. Li. 3. Hesychi . in Leuiti. Li. 4. Chrysost. in Epist ad Galat. Cap. 3. And againe , Sola Fides posita est ad Salutem : Onely Faithe is saide , or appointed vnto Saluation . S. Bastle saithe , Nouis se esse inopem Verae Iustitiae : Sola autem Fide in Christum esse Iustificatum : He knoweth him selfe to be voide of True Righteousnesse : and to be Iustified by Onely Faithe in Christe .

Theodoretus saithe , Non vllis Operibus nostris , sed per Solam Fidem Mystica bona consequuti sumus : Not by any Woorkes of ours , but by Onely Faithe we haue gotten the Mystical good thinges .

Nazianzenus saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Credere solum est Iustitia : Onely Beleeuinge is Righteousnesse .

Origen saithe , Vbi est gloriario tua ? Exclusa est . Dicit sufficere Solius Fidei Iustificationem : ita vt credens quis Tantummodo Iustificetur , etiamsi Nihil boni Operis fecerit : Where nowe is thy boastinge ( of thy good Woorkes ) ? It is shutte out . Paule saithe , that the Iustification of Onely Faithe is Sufficiente : So that a man Onely Beleeuinge maye be Iustified , although he haue donne no good woorke at al.

Hesychius saithe , Gratia ex Misericordia , atque Compassione praebetur , & Fide comprehenditur Sola : The Grace of God is geuen onely of Mercie , and Pauoure : and is embraced , and receiued by Onely Faithe .

I leaue a greate number of others , that haue written the like , as wel Gréekes , as Latines . In steede of them al , S. Chrysostome saithe thus : Illi dicebant , Qui Sola Fide nititur , Execrabilis est : Hic contrà demonstrat , eum , qui Sola Fide nititur , Benedictum esse : They saide , who so staieth him selfe by onely Faithe , is accursed : Contrar●ewise S. Paule prooueth , that who so stayeth him selfe by Onely Faithe , he is Blessed .

Touchinge the woordes of S. Iames , yf M. Hardinge wel considered the Equiuocation , or double vnderstanding of this woorde , Iustification , he might soone , and easily haue espied his owne errour . Roma. 4. For when S. Paule saithe , Abraham was Iustified by Faithe without Woorkes of the Lawe , he teacheth vs , how Abraham was receiued into fauour , and Iustified before God : Of the other side , S. Iames , when he saithe , Certainetie of Faithe . Abraham was Iustified by Woorkes , and not by Faithe Onely , he speaketh of the woorkes that folowe Iustification , & of the Fruites of Faithe : Without whiche Fruites Abrahams Faithe had benne no Faithe .

S. Augustine saithe , Non sunt contrariae duorum Apostolorum Sententiae , August . in . Li 83. quae . Quae. 76. Iacob . 5. Pauli , & Iacobi : Cùm dicit Paulus , Iustificari hominem sine Operibus : & Iacobus dicit , inanem esse Fidem sine Operibus . Quia Paulus loquitur de Operibus , quae Fidem praecedunt : Iacobus de ijs , quae Fidem sequntur : The saieinges of the twoo Apostles , Paule , and Iames are not contrarie , where as Paule saithe , A man is Iustified without Woorkes : and Iames saithe , Faithe without Woorkes is in vaine . For Paule speaketh of the Workes that goe before Faithe : James speaketh of the Workes , that folowe after Faithe .

Yf M. Hardinge shal thinke , S. Augustines authoritie herein is not sufficient , Thomas of Aquine wil auouche the same . His woordes be these : Thomas Aquin. in Epist. Iacobi . Cap. 5. Iacobus hic loquitur de Operibus sequentibus Fidem : quae dicuntur Iustificare , non secundum quod Iustificare dicitur Iustitiae infusio : sed secundum quod dicitur Iustitiae Exercitatio , vel Ostensio , vel Consummatio . Res enim dicitur fieri , quando perficitur , vel innotescit : Iames in this place speaketh of sutche woorkes , as folowe Faithe : whiche woorkes are saide to Iustifie , not as Iustification is the procuring of Righteousnesse : but in that it is an Exercise , or a shewinge , or a Perfitinge of Righteousnesse . For wee saye , A thinge is donne , when it is perfited , or knowen to be donne .

Nowe concerninge the assurance , or Certainetie of Saluation , the Scriptures are fulle . S. Paule saithe , There is no damnation to them that be in Christe Iesu : Roma. 8. The Sprite of God beareth witnesse to our Sprite , that wee are the Children of God : I knowe , that neither Deathe , nor Life , nor Angels , nor Powers , nor Principalities , nor thinges presente , nor thinges to come , nor Highth , nor Deapthe , nor duy Creature els shal be hable to remooue me from that Loue , that God beareth to wardes mee in Christe Iesu our Lorde .

But for as mutche as these woordes perhaps haue not the Sense of the Churche of Roome , without whiche , in M. Hardinges iudgemente , the Scripture of God is no Scripture , let vs sée the Sense , and Exposition of the Holy Fathers .

Tertullian saithe , Vt certum esset , nos esse Filios Dei , misit Spiritum suum in corda no●tra clamantem , Tertull. Contra Marcion . Lib. 5. Abba , Pater . That wee might be certified , that we bee the Children of God , he hath sente the Holy Ghoste into our hartes , crieinge , Abba , Father .

Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , Clemens in Paedagogo . li. 1. c. 6. Re vera Sanguis Fidei est Spes , in qua continetur , vt Fides in anima . Cùm autem Spés expirauerit , perinde acsi sanguis effluxerit , vltalis Fidei facultas dissoluitur : In deede Hope is ; as it were , the Bloudde of Faithe : in whiche Faithe Hope is conteined , euen as Faithe is conteined in the Soule . And when Hope is gonne , then is al the Liuely power of Faithe dissolued , as if the Bloudde were sheadde out of the Body .

S Cyprian saithe , Et tu dubitas , & fluctuas ? Hoc est Deum omnin● non nosse : Cyprian . De Mortalita . Sermon . 4. Hoc est Christum Credentium Magistrum peccato incredulitatis offendere : Hoc est , in Ecclesia constitutum , Fidem in Domo Fidei non habere : And dooste thou stagger , and stande in doubte ( of thy Saluation ) ? That were as mutche as not to knowe God : that were as mutche as with the sinne of vnbeliefe , to offende Christe the Maister of Beleeuers : That were as mutche as beinge in the Churche , in the House of Faithe , to haue no Faithe .

Prosper saithe , Prosper , De promiss & Praedictionib . Dei . Par. 1. Ca. 16. Securi diem Iudicij expectant , quibus in Cruce Domini gloriantibus mundus Crucifixus est , & ipsi Mundo : They , vnto whome the worlde is Crucified , and are Crucified vnto the worlde , waite for the daye of Iudgemente without feare .

But to leaue the Ancient Fathers of olde time , and to put the mater quite out of doubte , One Antonius Marinarius in the late Councel of Tridente in open audience saide thus : Si Coelum ruat , si Terra euanescat , si Orbis illabatur praeceps , Concil. Tridentin . Act. 1. Anno . 1546. ego in eum erectus ero . Si Angelus de Coelo aliud mihi persuadere contendat , dicam illi Anathema . Certainetie of Faithe . O Foelicem Christiani pectoris fiduciam : Yf the Heauen shoulde fal , yf the Earthe shoulde vanishe , yf the whole worlde shoulde come downe headlonge , yet woulde I stande preste , and bolde before God . Yf an Angel from Heauen woulde tel mee otherwise , I would accurse him . O the Blessed truste ( and certainetie ) of a Christian Harte .

Certainely , M. Hardinge , it were a very Presumptuous parte , to saye , that these Fathers , Greekes , Latines , Newe , Olde , your owne , and ours , were al Presumptuous . Yf it be so Presumptuous a mater to put affiance in the Merites of Christe , what is it then , to put affiance in our owne Merites ? S. Paule hath taught vs to saye , Galat. 6. Basil in Psal 32. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . God forebidde that I shoulde glorie , but onely in the Crosse of Christe . S. Basile saithe , Qui non fidit suis Meritis , nec expectat ex Operibus Iustificati , Vnam , & Solam spem habet salutis suae , Misericordias Domini : Who so trusteth not in his owne Merites , nor looketh to be Iustified by his owne Woorkes , hath his onely hope of Saluation in the Mercies of our Lorde .

So saithe Iob in al his miseries , Etiamfi me occiderit , sperabo in eum . Veruntamen vias meas in conspectu eius arguam : Iob. 13. Psalm. 70. Although he kisse mee , yet wil I put my trust in him : Notwithstandinge I wil reprooue my waies before his sighte . So the Prophete Dauid , In thee O Lorde haue I trusted : I wil neuer be cofounded . This is no Presumption , but a patiente , and an humble waitinge for the Redemption of the Children of God . It is moste true , Philip. 2. that S. Paule saithe , Wee must woorke our owne Saluation with feare , and tremblinge . But this feare riseth in consideration of our owne weakenesse , and vnwoorthinesse : not of any distruste , or doubte in Goddes mercie . But rather the lesse cause wée finde to truste in our selues , the more cause wée haue to truste in God . August . De verbis Domi. Sermo. 28. Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Praesume , non de Operatione tua , sed de Christi Gratia . Gratia enim saluati estis , inquit Apostolus . Non ergo hic Arrogantia est , sed Fides . Praedicare quod acceperis , non est Superbia , sed Deuotio : Presume thou , not of thine owne woorkinge , but of the Grace of Christe : For the Apostle saithe , Ye are saued by Grace . Heere therefore is not Presumption , but Faithe . To proclaime that thou haste receiued , it is no Pride , it is Deuotion .

Againe he saithe , August . in Iohan . Tracta . 22. Basil . De humilitate : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Non mea Praesumptione , sed ipsius Promissione in iudicium non venio : It is not of my Presumption , but of his Promisse , that I shal not comme into Iudgemente . S. Basile saithe , Paulus Gloriatur de contemptione Iustitiae suae : Paule ( presumeth , and ) boasteth of the contempte of his owne Righteousnesse . So saithe S. Ambrose : Non gloriabor , quia iustus sum : sed quia redemptus sum , gloriabor : Non quia vacuus sum à peccatis , sed quia mihi remissa sunt peccara . Non gloriabor , quia profui , neque quia profuit mihi quisquam : sed quia pro me Aduocatus apud Patrem Christus est : sed quia pro me Christi Sanguis effusus est : I wil not glorie , for that I am a iuste man : But for that I am redeemed , th●refore wil I glorie : Not for that I am voide of sinne : Ambros . de Iacabo , & vita Beata . but for that my Sinnes be forgeeuen mee . I wil not glorie , for that I haue donne good to any man , nor for that any man hath donne good to wee : but for that Christe is my Aduocate with the Father , and for that Christes Bloudde was shead for mee .

Therefore S. Augustine saithe , August . Confess . Lib. 11. Cap. 7. Quid retribuam Domino , quo'd recolit haec memoria mea , & anima mea non meruit inde ? What shal I re●der vnto our Lorde , for that I calle to remembrance al these my sinnes , and yet my Soule thereof is not afraide ?

To be shorte , thus saithe S. Bernarde : Bernard . in Canti . Cantico . Sermo. 61. Vbi tura firmaque infirmis securitas , & requies , nisi in vulneribus Saluatoris ? Tant● illic securior hab●to , quant● ille potentior est ad saluandum , &c. Peccaui peccatum grande : turbatur conscientia , sed non perturbabitur : quoniam vulnerum Domini recordabor . Nempe vulneratus est propter iniquitates nostras : What safe teaste or sur●tie can the weake Scule finde , but in the w●●●des of our Saueour ? As he is mightier to saue , so dwel I there with more safetie &c. I haue committed a greate Since : My conscience is troubled : Yet shal it not bee shaken downe : bicause I wil remember my Lordes woundes . Esai . 53. For he was wounded for our Sinnes .

Thus , M. Hardinge , to be assured of our Saluation , S. Augustine saithe , it is no arrogante stoutenesse : It is our Faithe . It is no Pride : It is Deuotion . It is no Presumption : It is Goddes Promisse .

But your whole Doctine of the truste in Mennes Merites leadeth directly to Desperation . And therefore S. Cyprian saithe wel of you : Cyprian . De Simpli . Praela . Asserunt Noctem pro Die : Interitum , pro Salute : Desperationem ; sub obtent Spei . Perfidiani , sub praetex●u Fidel : Antichristum , sub vocabulo Christi : They teach● vs Nighte in steede of Daie : Dei struction in tleede of Healthe : Desperation vnder the coloure : of Hope : Infidelitie vnder the pretense of Faithe : Antichriste vnder the name of Christe .

Nowe a litle to viewe the groundes of M. Hardinges longe discourse : whereas he so often and so earnestly telleth vs of the Sense of the Scriptures , as if wee had Scriptures without Sense , his meaninge thereby is onely to leade vs awaye to the Sense of the Churche of Rome : Alberius Piggh. Hierar . li. 1. ca. 4. Ecki●s De Ecclesia . Whiche Sense , Albertus Pigghius saithe , Is the Infallible , and Inflexible Rule of Truthe . Echius saithe , Scriptura , nisi Ecclesiae Authoritate , non est Authentica : The Scriptures of God are not Authentical , or of credite , but onely by the warrante and Authoritie of the Churche . And Hosius in like manner , Apostoli , Hosius in Confessione vetricouien . Ca. 80. cùm Symbolum traderem , nunquam dixerunt , Credo Sancta Biblia , aut Sanctum Euangelium : sed dixerunt , Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam : The Apostles , when they deliuered the Crede , they neuer saide , I beleeue the Holy Bible , or the Holy Gospel : but they saide , I beleeue the Holy Churche . Thus nowe the mater is sure yenough for euer . Wee haue neither Scriptures , nor Sense of Scriptures , but onely from Rome .

I wil not here reporte the vnsauerie Senses , that they haue imagined of the Scriptures . One example , or twoo for a taste maye be sufficient . Pope Boniface saithe thus , De Maior . & Obedien. Vnam Sanctam . Psalm. 8. Antonen . in Summa , Par. 3. Titu . 22. Ca. 5. Hebraeo . 2. Ecce duo Gladij h●c : Beholde here are twoo Swerdes : That is to saye , The Pope hath the power bothe of the Spiritual Swerde , and of the Temporal .

An other saithe : Omnia subiecisti sub pedibus eius , id est , Papae : Pecora campi , id est , homines viuentes in terra : Pisces maris , id est , animas in Purgatorio : Volueres Coeli , id est , animas Beatorum : These woordes S. Paule applieth onely vnto Christe , meaninge thereby , that God hath auanced him aboue al Powers , & Dominions , and that al thinges are subiecte vnto him . But the Romaine Sense is far otherwise : Thou haste made al thinges subiecte vnto him , that is to saye , to the Pope : The Cattaile of the Fielde , that is to saye , Menne liuinge in the Earthe : The Fishes of the Sea , that is to saye , the Soules in Purgatories The Birdes of the Heauens , that is to saye , the Soules of the Blessed in Heauen . I leaue M. Hardinges owne peculiar Expositions , M. Hard. in his Former Answeare . Artic. 2 M. Hardinge ● Articulo . 2. & 10. Drinke ye al of this , that is to saye , as he geathereth in Conclusion , Drinke ye not al of this : It is the Substance , that is to saye , It is the Accidens .

By sutche prety Senses , I wil not saie , as S. Hierome saithe , De Euangelio Christi facitis hominis Euangelium , aut , quod peius est , Diaboli : Of the Gospel of Christe , ye make the Gospel of a Man : or , that is woorse , the Gospel of the Diuel : I wil not so saye : Hieronym . in Epis. ad Gala. Cap. 1 But thus maye I saye with the Prophete Esal , Ye make Lighte Darkenesse : and Darkenesse Lighte .

Yet muste wée néedes beléeue , vpon M. Hardinges Woorde , that the Scripture without the Sense of the Churche of Rome is no Scripture . Esai . 5. Hosius de expresso Verbo Dei . And therefore Hasius saithe , Si quis ha●eat interpretationem Ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo Scripturae , etiamsi nec sciat , nec intelligat , an , & quomodo ' cùm Scripturae verbis conueniat , tamen habet ipsissimum Verbum Dei : If a man haue the exposition of the Churche of Rome , touchinge any place of the Scriptures , although he neither knowe , nor vnderstande , whether , and howe it agreeth with the woordes of the Scripture , yet he hath the verie Woorde of God . So saithe Rabbi Abraham Hispanus , Rabbi Abraham . speakinge of the expositions of the Rabbines , Licet videantur nobis verba nostra esse vera , & recta , nobis tamen Veritas abijcienda est in terram : quia Veritas cum illis est : Not withstanding● our Expositions seeme to vs neuer so True , and righte , Scripture , Tradition . yet muste wee throwe our . Truthe to the grounde : For the Truthe in deede is with them . Lyra likewise reporteth the common opinion the Iewes had of their Rabines : Lyra. in Deuteron . Cap. 17. Recipiendu●r est , quicquid hoc modo proponatur , etiamsi dicant Dextrant esse Sinistram : Wee muste needes receiue , what so euer they laye vnto vs , yea although they tel vs , The Righte hande is the Lefte .

Nowe , gentle Reader , that thou maiste the better see the constancie , and certainetie of these Senses , and Expositions , whereunto M. Hardinge laboureth so earnestly to haue thee bounde , it maye please thee to consider these woordes of Nicolaus Cusanus sometime Cardinal in the Churche of Rome : Nicolaus Cusanus De Author . Eccle. & Concil. Supra , & Con. Scripturam . Non est mirum , si Praxis Ecclesiae vno tempore interpre●atur Scripturam vno modo : & alio tempore , alio modo . Nam lntellectus currit cum Praxi . Intellectus enim , qui cum Praxi concurrit , est Spiritus Viuificans . Sequuntur ergo Scripturae Ecclesiam , & non è conuerso : It is no marueile , though the Practise of the Churche expounde the Scriptures at one time one waye , and at an other time an other waie . For the vnderstandinge , or Sense of the Scriptures renneth with the practise : and that sense so agreeinge with the practise is the quickeninge Sprite . And therefore the Scriptures folowe the Churche : but contrariewise the Churche foloweth not the Scriptures . For sutche kindes of Expositions of the Scriptures , S. Hilarie saide sometime vnto the Arians , Fides ergo temporum magis est , quàm Euangeliorum : The Faithe therefore foloweth the time , and not the Gospel .

This is the Sense of the Churche of Rome , whereby onely M. Hardinge willeth vs to measure , and to weighe the Woorde of God . But the Ancient Father Origen saithe , Origen . in Matthae . Homil. 25. Sicut omne Aurum , quodcunque fuerit extra Templum , non est Sanctificatum : sic omnis Sensus , qui fuerit extra Diuinam Scripturam , quamuis admirabilis videatur quibusdam , non est Sanctus : quia non continetur à Sensu Scripturae : As what so euer Golde is without the Temple , is not Sanctified : so what so euer Sense is without the Holy Scripture , although vnto some it seeme wounderful , yet is it not Holy , bicause it is not conteined in the Sense of the Scripture .

To conclude , where as M. Hardinge saithe , wee cannot vnderstande the Scriptures without Tradition , the ancient Father Irenaeus saithe , This is one special marke , whereby wee maye knowe an Heretique : These be his woordes : Haeretici cùm arguuntur ex Scripturis , Ire●a . Li. 3. ca. 2. in accusationem Scripturarum conuertuntur , quasi non rectè habeant , nec sint ex authoritate , & quòd variè fint dictae , & quòd ex his non possit inueniri Veritas ab illis , qui Traditionem nesciunt : Heretiques , when they be reprooued by the Scriptures , they falle to the accusinge of the Scriptures , as though either they were not wel and perfite , or wanted authoritie , or were doubtefully vttered : or that they that knowe not the Tradition , were neuer hable by the Scriptures to finde out the Truthe .

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision . 2.

Menne saie , that Sophocles the Tragical Poete , when in his old daies he was by his owne Sonnes accused before the Iudges , for a dotinge and sottishe man , as one that fondely wasted his owne Substance , and seemed to neede a gouernour , to see vnto him : to the intent he might cleere him self of the faulte , he came into the place of Iudgemente , and when he had rehearsed before them his Tragedie called Oedipus Colonaeus , whiche he had written at the very time of his accusation , marueilous exactely & cunningly , did aske the Iudges in his owne behalfe , whether they thought any sottishe or dotinge man coulde doo the like peece of Woorke . In like manner , bicause these menne take vs to be madde , and appeache vs for Heretiques , as menne whiche haue nothinge to doo , neither with Christe , nor with the Churche of God , wee haue iudged it should be to good purpose , and not vnprofitable , if wee doo openly and frankely set foorthe our Faithe wherein wee stande , and shewe al that confidence whiche wee haue in Christe Iesu : to the intent al menne maye see , what is our iudgement of euery parte of Christian Religion : & maye resolue with them selues , whether the Faithe whiche they shal see confirmed by the Woordes of Christe , by the Writinges of the Apostles , by the Testimonies of the Catholique Fathers , and by the Examples of many ages , be but a certaine rage of Furious and madde menne , and a conspiracie of Heretiques . This therefore is our beliefe .

M. Hardinge .

The comparison whiche ye make betweene your selues and Sophocles , gladly we admitte . Yet we acknowledge , that as in many respectes ye are like , so in some vnlike . Sophocles was a Poet , that is to saie , a fainer , and deuiser of thinges , that be not true , but fabulous : Ye also are fainers , and deuisers of nouelties , and folowers of Newe deuises , that be false . Sophocles was a Tragicall Poet : ye are Tragical Diuines . A Tragedie setteth foorthe th ouerthrowes of Kingdomes , Murder of Noble Personages , and other greate troubles , and endethe in woful lamentations . Your Gospel inuadeth Christes Heauenly Kingdome the Churche , it murdereth soules bought with a moste deere price , it causethe a hellishe garbotle in mennes consciences , in the ende it bringethe to euerlastinge weepinge and gnasshinge of teethe . We take you not to be madde . Would God ye were not woorse then madde . Were ye madde , ye should be tied vp . Els were ye suffered to goo abroad , for feare folke would flie from you . And then should ye doo little hurte . Nowe whiles ye offer venemous kisses with sugered lippes , whiles ye couer woluishe crueltie vnder Lambes Skinnes , whiles ye hurte vnder pretence of benefite , wounde vnder colour of a medicine , begyle vnstable Soules with resemblance of Truth : neither stinte ye to woorke mischiefe , nor others can beware of you .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O M. Hardinge , Sophocles him selfe , if he were aliue , were not hable with al his eloquence to expresse the Tragical dealinges of your Companie . Your whole life , Marti . Ruceru● . Paul . Phagius . and Religion is nothinge els , but a Tragedie . You haue ripte vp the graues , and digged out the deade , and practised your crueltie vpon the poore innocente cackesses .

Your Pope Stephanus tooke vp Formosus his predecessours Body , chopte of his forefingers , Platina in Stephano . 6. Sabellicus , Ennea . 9. Lib. 2. Sabellicus , Enneade 9. Lib. 9. Beno Cardinalis cut of his heade , and threwe out the naked carkesse into Tiber.

Your Pope Iohn the twelfth cut of one of his Cardinales right hand , and an others nose .

Your Pope Vrbanus the sixth thrust fiue of his Cardinales aliue into sackes , and threwe them into the sea .

Your Pope Hildebrande poisoned sixe other Popes his predecessours , to make him selfe roome to the Holy Seate . They are so skilful there , in these feates , that noman can telle , neither what to flie , nor what to take : nor whom to doubte , nor whom to truste . They haue conueighed theire poison , I wil not saie into theire meates , or drinkes , for that is ouer grosse , & Common , but euen into theire Masse Bookes , into the Sacramente , into the Chalice . Camotensis one of theire owne side saithe wel of them : Heb 9. Agrippa . De Vaeni . Scientiaru● Sine Sanguinis effusione non ingrediuntur in Sancta Sanctorum : Without sheaddinge of Bloude they enter not into that Holy place , the Holy of Holies .

Howe be it , what spende I these woordes ? It is not possible to saye al , that maie be said . They haue inflamed Warres : they haue raised the Subiectes against theire Princes : They haue armed the Sonne against the Father : They haue ouerthrowen Ci●ties , and Countries : They haue deposed Kinges : They haue sette theire feete on Emperours neckes .

These maters , Madde . M. Hardinge , be Tragical in déede . And herein standeth them whole practise , and Policie of your Churche of Rome .

Where you thinke your selfe a sober man , in that you can so easily calle vs madde , and woorse then madde , you maye remember , that this kinde of eloquence emongst you is Anciente , and Catholique , and maie wel stande with your Religion . For so the False Prophete Semeias saide , Hierem. 29. 4. Regum . 19. that Hieremte the Prophete of God raued , and was starke madde . So the wicked saide vnto Iehu , of Elizeus the Prophete , What hath this madde Bedlem Body to doo with thee ? Euen so they sayde of Christe , Marci . 3. Augu. in Psal. 6. That he was madde , and spake in furie , be knewe not what . S. Augustine saithe of S. Paule : Incidit in istorum sacrilegam dicacitatem : & ab eis , qui sanari nolunt , vocatur insanus : S. Paule is fallen into theire cursed raisinge : and of them , that wil neuer be made sober , is called a madde man . So saithe the Auncient Father Origen , of Celsus the wicked Heathen : Origen . contra Celsum . Lib. 4. Videamus igitur nos , qui iuxta hunc insanimus : Let vs therefore confider hereof , that in this mannes iudgemente are starke madde .

But , M. Hardinge , wherein are wee so madde ? or what tokens of madnesse haue wee shewed ? Can noman either speake the Truthe , or disclose your errours , without madnesse ? But , I trowe , it is euen as S. Hierome saide sometime : Delirabat , Hiero. Ad Pammachi . contra errores Iohan. Hierosolymit . Leo in Epiphan. Sermo . 5. Augu. in Psal. 33. scilicet , qui in ruo Regno contra tuam sententiam loquebatur : He raued , and was madde , no doubte , that within thy Dominion spake any thinge against thy minde . So saithe Leo , Insarris Magistris Veritas scandalum est , & Coecis Doctoribus fit caligo , quod lumen est : Vnto Frantique Maisters the Truthe is a sclaunder : and vnto Blinde Doctours the light is becomme Darkenesse .

So saithe S. Augustine of kinge Dauid : Insanire videbatur : Sed Regi Achis insanire videbatur , id est , stultis , & ignorantibus : Dauid seemed madde : But vnto Kinge Achis be seemed madde , that is to saye , vnto fooles , and idiotes .

As for our parte , Actor . 26. wée remember , what answeare S. Paule made vnto Festus in the like case : O good Festus , I am not madde : but I vtter vnto thee , the woordes of Truthe , Hiero. in Epitaphio Paulae . and Sobrietie . Therefore we may comforte our selues , as the Vertuous Gentlewoman Paula did , when she was likewise supposed to be madde : Nos stulti propter Christum : Sed stultum Dei sapientius est hominibus : wee are iudged fooles ( and madde folkes ) for Christes sake : But the foolishenesse of God is wiser their menne .

But , Cyprian . ad Cornelium . M. Hardinge , S. Cyprian wil telle you thus : Haec est , Frater , Vera dementia , non cogitare , nec scire , quòd mendacia non diu fallant : noctem tam diu esse , quàm diu illuce scat dies : O my Brother , this is madnesse in deede , not to thinke , or knowe , that ( your ) Lies cannot longe deceiue vs : and that it is Night no longer , but vntil the Daye springe . This in deede is very madnesse . And therefore Chrysostome saithe , Qui in manifestam foueam cadit , non negligens dicitur , sed insanus : Who so falleth into a pitte , that liethe wide open , is not saide to bee negligente , but starke madde .

The ende of the firste parte .
The Seconde parte .
The Apologie , the first Chapter , Diuision . 1.

WEe beleeue , span● that there is one certaine Nature and Diuine Power , whiche wee calle God : and that the same is diuided into Three equal Persons , into the Father , into the Sonne , and into the Holy Ghoste : and that they al be of one power , of one Maiestie , of one Eternitie , of one Godhed , and of one Substance . And although these Three Persons be so diuided , that neither the Father is the Sonne , nor the Sonne is the Holy Ghost , or the Father : yet neuerthelesse wee beleeue , that there is but one very God : And that the smne one God hathe created Heauen , and Earthe , and al thinges conteined vnder Heauen .

Wee beleeue , that Iesus Christe the onely Sonne of the Eternal Father ( as longe before it was determined , before al beginninges ) when the fulnesse of time was comme , did take of that Blessed , & Pure Virgine , bothe fleashe , and al the Nature of Man , that he might declare to the worlde the secrete and hid Wil of his Father : whiche wil had benne laide vp from before al Ages , and Generations : And that he might ful finishe in his Humaine Body the Mysterie of our Redemption : and might fasten our sinnes to the Crosse , & also that Handwritinge , whiche was made againste vs .

Wee beleeue , that for our sakes he died , and was buried , descended into Hel , the thirde daie by the Power of his Godhed returned to life and rose againe : and that the fourtethe daie after his Resurrection , whiles his Disciples behelde and looked vppon him , he Ascended into Heauen , Augu. Tract. 5● . in Iohan. to fulfil al thinges , and did place in Maiestie , and Glorie the selfe same Body , wherewith he was borne , wherin he liued on Earth , wherein he was iested at , wherein he had suffered most paineful tormentes , and cruel kinde of deathe , wherein he rose againe , and wherein he ascended to the Right Hande of the Father , aboue al Rule , aboue al Power , al Force , al Dominion , and aboue euery name , that is named , not onely in this worlde , Actor . 3. but also in the worlde to comme : And that there he nowe sittethe , and shal sitte , til al thinges be ful perfitted . And althoughe the Maiestie , and Godhed of Christe be euerywhere abundantly dispersed , In Epist. ad Darsdanum . yet wee beleeue , that his Body , as S. Augustine saith , must needes be stil in one place : & that Christe hathe geuen Maiestie vnto his Body , but yet hathe not taken awaye from it the Nature of a Body : Cō●ra ●utychen . Lib. 1. and that we must not so affirme Christe to be God , that wee denie him to be Man : and , as the Martyr Vigilius saithe , that Christe hathe leafte vs as touchinge his Humaine Nature , but hath not leafte vs as touchinge his Diuine Nature : Tulgent . ad Thras●mūdum . And that the same Christe , thoughe he be Absent from vs concerning his Manhed , yet is euer Present with vs concerninge his Godhed .

From that place also wee beleeue that Christe shal come againe to execute that General Iudgement , as wel of them whom he shal then finde aliue in the Body , as of them that shal be already dead .

M. Hardinge .

In our Fathers dayes before any change in Religion was thought vpon , Christen people lyued togeather in perfite vnitie . Neither is any man now ashamed of the Apostles Creede . If accoumpt of belife had ben demaunded , none was ashamed of the common Apostles Crede . Euery one constantly confessed , I beleue in God the Father Almighty Maker of Heauen and Earthe , and in Iesus Christe , and so foorthe . But sithens Luther brought a a a Vntruthe It was the Olde . Newe Gospel into the worlde , wee haue sene greate diuersitie amonge men , not onely of Ceremonies , and Administration of the Sacramentes , but also of the b b Manifeste Vntruthe : For wee keepe al one Creede . Publike Confession of the Faithe . For as sundrie Rulers , Countries , and common Weales receiued that newe Doctrine : so theire Preachers and Ministers haue sette foorthe sundrie Credes , and Confessions of theire Faithe .

S. Hilarie in his time complaininge there of , S Hilaries complaint of many Faithes . One God , one Faithe . Nowe a dayes there be ( saithe he ) so many Faithes , as there be willes : so many Doctrines , as there be maners : so many causes of blaspemies springe vp , as there be vices : whiles Faithes either are so written as wee list , or so vnderstanded as we list . And where as there is but one God , one Lorde , one Baptisme , and accordinge thereto one Faithe , wee steppe aside from that whiche is the onely Faithe : and whiles mo faithes be made , they beginne to come to that point , that there be no Faithe at al.

But the maner of the vtterance of your Faithe is strange to Christen eares , The maner of the vtterance of the defenders Faithe strange to Christen eares . who haue ben accustomed to heare , Credo in Deum , Credo in Iesum Christum , Credo in Spiritum Sanctum : I beleue in God , I beleue in Iesus Christe , I beleue in the Holy Ghoste . That other forme of woordes , whiche you vse , soundeth not so Christianlike . I beleue there is a God , I beleue that Iesus Christe is the Sonne of the Father , I b●liue that the Holy Ghoste is God . Although this forme of woordes do expresse a right Faithe , yet beinge sutche as maye be vttered by Deuils , and hathe c c Vntruthe . For the Heretiques saide , I beleue in God , as wel as did the Catholiques . alwaies ben vttered by Heretikes theire Ministers : the Auncient and Holy Fathers haue liked better the Olde forme and maner , after whiche euery Christen man saithe , I beleue in God , I beleue in Iesus Christe , I beleue in the Holy Ghoste . For this importeth a signification of Faithe with hope and charitie : that other of Faithe onely , whiche the Deuils haue and tremble , Iacob . ● . as S. Iames saithe : wherein as in many other thinges these Defenders resemble them . S. Augustine in sundrie places putting a difference betwen these two formes of wordes , vpon s Iohn alleaging S. Paules wordes , To one that beleueth in him who iustifieth the wicked , his Faithe is imputed to rightuousnesse , demaōdeth , what is it to beleue in him ? It is by his answeare , Credendo amare , credendo diligere , credendo in eum ire , & eius membris incorporari : With beleuinge to loue him , with beleuinge to goe into him , and to be incorporate in his members , that is , to be made a member of his Body .

As this Defender procedeth in declaringe the belefe of his Newe Englishe Churche , he grateth mutche vppon the Article of Christes Ascension , The Article of Christes ascension mutche grated vpon ●y the defenders to euil purpose . In Iohan. Tract . 30. Oportet for Potest . as the maner is of al Zwinglians to do . For theire minde geueth them , thereby they shal be able to bringe at leste many of the simpler sorte to their Sacramentarie Heresie , and to thinke , that the Body of Christe , wherein he ascended into Heauen , and suteth at the right hande of the Father , is so absent from Earthe , as it may not be beleued to be here present in the Sacrament of the Aulter . Thereto he alleagethe S. Augustine , makinge him to saye , that Christes Body wherein he rose againe , must nedes be stil in one place . In which treatise that Holy Father hathe not the worde , Vntruthe . For S. Augustines woorde is , Oportet . S. Augustine knewe no sutche Body in the Sacramente . Oportet , that is , must nedes , as this Defender alleageth , but this worde , Potest , that is , maye , as the bookes haue that be not corrupted by the mainteiners of that Heresie . And where as he saithe , Ad Dardanum , alleaged by this defender , though Christe hathe geuen Maiestie vnto his Body yet he hathe not taken awaye from it the Nature of a Body : this is not to be stretched to Christes Body in the Sacrament , where , it is not after condition of Nature , but by the almightie power of his worde . And although he hathe not taken awaye from his Body the Nature of a very Body , yet may it please him to do with his Body , being God nolesse then man , that , whiche is besides and aboue the Nature of a Body . Matthae . 26. So it pleased him to do , when he said , This is my Body . And so it pleaseth him it be done , Vūtruthe . There is neither sutche Institution , nor sutche commasidement . whesoeuer the same Body is offered in the daily sacrifice of the Churche according to his commandement and institution . Diuersitie of creedes That Vigilius saithe , Contra Eutychē Lib. 1. Howe Christe hathe lefte to be now in Earthe . 1. Ioan. 1. Christe hathe lefte vs touching his Humaine Nature , but hathe not left vs as touching his Diuine Nature : it is to be vnderstanded of his visible shape , in whiche he shewed his Humaine Nature , when he walked here on Earthe , when he was so conuersant with men sensibly , that as S. Iohn writethe they heard him with theire eares , they saw him with theire eies , they behelde him , and touched him withe theire handes . As touchinge his Humaine Nature in this sensible wise , Expositionis in Epist. Iohan. Tract. 10. Christe hathe left vs , after whiche S. Augustine saithe , Iam non inuenis Christum loqui in Terra : Nowe thou findest not Christe to speake on the Earthe . This maner of Christes Humaine Nature beinge taken from vs withstandeth not , but that we may haue the substance of his natural Body and Bloud present in the blessed Sacrament in a mysterie by the Almighty power of his word : whiche Faithe these defenders trauatle to impugne . And ( as God would ) the Penneman of this Apologie bringeth vnwares , as it semethe , for confirmation of his Sacramentarie Doctrine , that out of ●ulgentius , Ad Thrasymundum Regem . whiche ouerthroweth al that he went about to builde against the real presence . That Father , as he is by him alleaged , saithe , Christum , cùm absit à nobis per Formam Serui , tamen semper esse nobiscum per Formam Dei : That whereas Christe is absent from vs accordinge to the Forme of a seruant , yet he is euer present with vs accordinge to the Forme of God . Whereby he meaneth , that Christe is nomore here amonge men , as he was before his deathe , in Forme and shape of man , in sutche wise as we see men liue on the Earthe . Whiche woordes bicause they seme to dasshe theire whole purpose , Vntruthe . For Forme and Substance are bothe one . the Prelates of this newe Englishe Churche haue altered the sense of them , by shifting in this worde ( Manhed ) in stede of ( the Forme or shape of a seruant ) whiche the Latine hathe , and this worde ( Godhed ) in stede of ( the Forme of God ) .

The B. of Sarisburie .

I marueile , M. Hardinge , that ye can publishe so manifeste Vntruthe without blusshinge . Ye saie , that before these fewe late yeeres , there was but one Fourme of Faithe throughout the world . Yet beinge learned , & hauinge trauailed through the Auncient Writers , you muste néedes haue séene the Apostles Creede : the Nic●ne Créede : S. Basiles Créede : Damasus Créede : S. Hieromes Créede : S. Cyprians . or Rufines Créede : Gregories Créede : the Créede called , Quicunque vult , written , as some thinke , by Athanasius , as some others , by Eusebius Vercellensis : the Créede conteined in the Hymne called , Te Deum , whether it were written by S. Augustine , or by S. Ambrose : euery of these vnder seueral , and sundrie fourmes . You knowe , that in diuers of the Oldest Councelles , as occasion was offered , so somewhat was either added to the Creede , or diminished , or altered : as it may appeare by Eusebius , Socrates , Theodoretus , Sozomenus , Euagrius , Nicephorus , and others . You know , that S. Augustine vnto Laurentius , S. Hierome vnto Cyrilius , S. Ambrose vnto the Emperour Gratianus , and others moe in declaration of the Christian Faithe , haue not alwaies vsed one precise fourme of Woordes : and that the Emperoure Constantine maketh open Protestation of his Faithe , as it is recorded in your Countrefeite Donation , in Sense , & Substance agréeing with al others , that were Catholique : but in Woordes , far disagréeinge from al others , and peculiar onely to him selfe . To be shorte , you knowe , that betwéene your Masse Créede , & the peoples Common Créede , as touching the Woordes , there was greate difference . It were too longe , to rehearse al. Neither was it necessarie , to say so mutche , sauinge onely to shewe the manifeste vanitie of your talke . To expresse one Substance of Faithe in sundrie Fourmes of Woordes , I neuer heard , it was forbidden , sauinge onely nowe at the laste by this late Decrée of M. Hardinge .

Where you saie , the whole people before these fewe late yéeres had one Faithe , ye shoulde rather haue saide , they were al taught by you in a straunge vnknowen Tongue , to pronounce , as they could , a strange vnknowen Fourme of Faithe . For , God knowethe , they vnderstoode not one woorde , what they saide , nor scarcely one Article of theire Beléeue . S. Hilarie saithe , of the people deceiued by the Arians , as these haue benne by you , To beleue In God . Credunt , quod non credunt : Intelligunt , quod non intelligunt : They Beleeue that , Hilari . ad Constantium Imperatore●● . Coelius Rhodigin Antiquitat . Lib 3. Cap. 32. August . De cap. 〈◊〉 contra Dona●ist . Lib 3. Cap 14. whiche thei Beleeue not : they Vnderstande that , whiche they Vnderstand not . Cardinal Ascanius had a Popiniay , that was taught to say distinctly al the Articles of the Creede , from the beginninge to the ende . Yet , I trowe , ye wil not say , the same Popiniay Beléeued in God , or vnderstoode the Christian Faithe . For Faithe is in the Harte , not in the Tonge . S. Augustine saithe , Fieri potest , vt integra quis teneat Verba Symboli , & tamen non rectè credat : It is possible , that a man may pronounce the whole woordes of the Creede : and yet not haue the right Faithe .

In deede S. Hilarie , of whom ye speake , woorthily reproued the Arian He retiques , for that they had altered the whole Faithe of Christe , not onely in Woor●es , but also in Substance . But wee hauinge published sundrie Confessions of our Religion , as the Multitudes of your Abuses , and Errours offered occasion , and that in sundrie Countries , and Kingdomes , in sutche distance of places , and diuersitie of Speaches , yet notwithstanding in the Substance , & groundes of the Truthe haue euermore ioined togeather , and neuer altered .

Where wee saie , Wée beleeue , there is one God , M. Hardinge answeareth , He cannot wel allow this Fourme of Speache . Wee should rather haue said , saithe he , wee beléeue In God . Were not this Controller so importune , sutche simple petite quarcelles should not be answeared . I could neuer haue thought , it had ben so great a sinne , to Beleeue , that God is God Verily , M Hardinge , if euery of y●ur Popes , and Cardinalles had beléeued so mutche , I trow , Cornelius the Bishop of Bito●to in your late Councel at Tridente woulde not so bitterly , and in so open sorte haue cried out of them , Cornelius Bitontinus in Concil. Trident. Vtinam non à Fide ad Infidelitatem , à Deo ad Epicurum , velut prorsus vnanimes declinassent , dicentes in corde Impio , & ore impudico , Non est Deus : Would God they were not gonne , as it were with one consent , from the Faithe to Infidelitie , from God to Epicure , saieing with wicked h●rte , and shamelesse mouthe , There is no God .

If no Catholique Writer had euer vsed this selfe same Fourme of speache before , then might M. Hardinges quarrel seeme to haue some reasonable ground . But bothe S. Paule , and also many other Catholique Fathers haue often vsed it . S. Paule saithe , Hebrae . 11. Accedentem ad Deum oportet Credere , Deum esse : He that commeth to God , must beleeue , that there is a God : And Hermes , S Paules Scholar , commonly called Pastor Nuntius , Pastor Nuntius . Origen . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in prooemio . Hilar. De ●rinitat . Lib. 10. Symbolum Caroli Magni . Ante omnia crede Vnum Deum esse , qui condidit omnia : Before al other thinges beleeue , that there is One God , that hathe made al. Origen saithe , Primùm credendus est Deus , qui omnia creauit : Firste w●e must beleeue , there is a God , that hathe created al thinges . S. Hilarie saithe , In absoluto nobis , & facilis est Acternitas , Iesum Christum à mortuis suscitatum Credere : Our euerlastinge life is ready , and casi , to beleeue , that Iesus Christe is risen againe from the deade : Likewise Charles the Greate in the Créede published in his name , Praedicandum est omnibus , vt credant , Patrem , Filium , & Spiritum Sanctum Vnum esse Deum Omnipotentem : The Gospel must be preached vnto al , to the ende they may knowe , that the Father , the Sonne , and the Holy Ghoste is one God Almighty . To be shorte , euen in our late Fathers daies , this was counted a Catholique Fourme of Faithe , and was commonly taught in al Scholes , Vnum Crede Deum : Beleeue , that there is One God . If this were then wel spoken , and vniuersally vsed , euen in the Churche of Rome , without rebuke , I truste , M Hardinge of his Courtesie wil nomore blame vs for speakinge wel . As for these Phrases ( I beleeue In God , I beleeue In Christe ) although in deede they be better , & more effectual , & carrie more force then the other , Exodi . 14. Exodt . 19. Basilius de Spir. Sanct. cap. 14. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . yet are they not , neither so peculiare , and special to God alone , nor so precisely vsed , as M. Hardinge imagineth . For it is written in the E●odus , as it is noted by the skilful in the Hebrewe tongue , Populus credidit In Deum , & In Mosen : The people beleeued In God , and In Moses : And God him selfe saide vnto Moses , as it is likewise noted in the Hebrewe : Descendam , vt populus In te credat : I wil goe downe , that the people mai● beleeue In thee . S. Basile saithe , Baptizati sunt In Mosen , & crediderunt In illum : They were Baptized In Moses , and beleeued In him . And Hosius saithe , To beleue In God . Christes Ascension Quid si In Sanctos quoque rectè credi docet Paulus ? Hosius in Confessi . Petricouien . Ca. 58. Socrates Li. 1. Ca. 25. Paschasi . L. 1. de Spiritu Sancto . What if Paule teache vs , that wee may also wel beleeue In Sainctes ? And they of M. Hardinges side haue euermore wel liked this Fourme of Speache , Credo in Sanctam Ecclesiam : I beleeue In the Holy Churche . Wherein also perhappes they wil allege these woordes of Socrates , and of some others , Credo In vnam Catholicam Ecclesiam : I beleeue In one Catholique Churche . Notwithstandinge beside S. Augustine , and others , Paschasius saithe , Credimus Ecclesiam , quasi Regenerationis Martem : non Credimus In Ecclesiam , quasi Regenerationis Authorem . Recede ergo ab hac persuasione blasphemiae . Non enim licet , nec In Angelum Credere : Wee beleeue the Holy Churche , as the Mother of Regeneration : But wee beleeue not In the Churche , as the Authour of Regeneration . Leaue therefore this persuasion of Blasphemie . For it is not lauful to beleeue , no not In an Angel . Augustin . in Iohan. tracta. 29. Likewise S. Augustine saithe , Credimus Paulo , non credimus In Paulum : Credimus Petro , non credimus In Petrum : Wee beleeue Paule , but we beleeue not In Paule : Wee beleeue Peter , but wee beleeue not In Peter .

Hereby wée maie sée , that whether wée saie , Wee beleeue that God is God , or , we beleeue In God , both these phrases are vsed of the godly , and are therfore both good , & Catholique . Yf M. Hardinge finde any wante , or imperfection in our woordes , let him supplie it with good fauoure : so he condemne not either S. Paule , or Hermes , or Origen , or Hilarie , or Charles the Greate , or other Catholique , and godly writers , as wel Gréekes , as Latines : who , as I haue shewed , haue vsed the like . Certainely the General Confession of al our people , and of our whole Churche , is this , Wee beleeue In God : Wee beleeue In Christe : Wee beleeue In the Holy Ghoste .

But M. Hardinge saithe , wée grate ouer busily vpon the Article of Christes Ascension into Heauen . What then ? Should wée haue leafte it out ? Verily that would haue benne some good countenance to your cause ▪ An● therefore when Pope Nicolas would haue brought vs your newe Article of Trasubstantiation into the Crede , he should firste haue vtterly remoued this whole Article of Christes Ascension . For these twoo Articles maie not wel stande togeather by any construction in one Crede . As for vs , wée haue saide nothinge herein , but that hath often ben saide , and auouched by the Holy Learned Fathers . Damasus the Bishoppe of Rome , in his Creede grateth hereon as mutche , as wée . His woordes be these : Deuicto mortis imperio , Symbolum Damasi , apud Hierony . To. 4. cum ea Carne , in qua natus , & passus , & mortuus fuerat , & resurrexit , Ascendit ad Patrem , sedetque ad Dextram eius in Gloria : Hauinge ouercome the empiere of deathe , with the same fleashe , wherein he was borne , and suffred , and died , and rose againe , he Ascended vnto the Father , and sitteth at his Right hande in Glorie . Whiche woordes S. Hierome in larger manner expoundeth thus : Ascendit ad Coelum , Sedet ad Dextram Dei Patris , Hierony . in explicatione Symboli , To. 4. manente ea Natura Carnis , in qua natus , & passus est , & in qua Resurrexit . Non enim exinanita est Humanitatis Substantia , sed glorificata : Christe Ascended into Heauen , and sitteth at the Right hande of the Father , the same Nature of Fleash , wherein he was borne and suffred , and rose againe , remaininge stil . For the Substance of his Humaine Nature was not donne away , but glorified . Howe be it , gentle Reader , for thy better satisfaction herein , In the sixthe Article . I muste referre thée ouer to my Former Replie to M. Hardinge .

Here foloweth a piteous outcrie , that wée haue shamefully corrupted S. Augustines woordes , shiftinge in , Oporter , in steede of , Potest . What newe fansie is suddainely fallen into M. Hardinges heade , I cannot tel . S. Augustines woordes , as they be alleged by Gratian , De Consecra . Dis. 2. Prima . Oportet . Potest . are these : Corpus , in quo Resurrexit , in Vno loco esse Oportet : The Body , wherein Christe rose againe , muste needes be in One place . Here is not , Oportet , in stéede of , Potest , as M. Hardinge saithe : but , Oportet , as it should be , for , Oportet . If there haue benne any corruption wrought herein , it hath benne wrought by Gratian , welneare foure hundred yeres agoe , and not by vs . Christes Body in one place . Yet is Gratian one of the highest Doctours of M. Hardinges side . And wil M. Hardinge make vs beléeue , that his owne Catholique Doctours would be so bolde , to corrupte S. Augustine ?

As for this Verbe , Oportet , if it were wanting in the place alleged , yet might it wel , and easily be supplied of other places . S. Peter saithe , Oportet illum coelos capere vsque ad tempora restitutionis omnium : Actor . 3. Cyrill . in Iohan. Li. 11. Ca. 3. Augustin . contra Faustem li. 20. Ca. 11. Augustin . ad Dardan . Epist. 57. The Heauens Must conteine , or hold him , vntil the time , that al thinges be restored . So saithe Cyrillus , Christus non poterat cum Apostolis versari in Carne , postquàm Ascendisset ad Patrem : Christe could not be conuersante with his Apostles in the Fleash , after he had Ascended vnto the Father . Likewise saithe S. Augustine , Christus secundum Praesentiam Corporalem in Sole , in Luna , & in Cruce simul esse non potuit : Christe , according to the Presence of his Body , could not be in the Some , in the Moone , and on the Crosse at one time . And againe , Ne dubites , Christum esse in aliquo loco Coeli , propter Veri Corporis modum : Doubt not , but Christ is in some One Place of Heauen , bicause of the measure or fourm of a very Body . Therefore the Olde Learned Father Origen saithe , Non est Homo , qui est vbicunque duo vel tres in eius nomine fuerint congregati : Origen . in Matthae . tracta. 32. neque Homo nobiscum est omnibus diebus vsque ad consūmationem saeculi : neque congregatis vbique fidelibus Homo est praesens : sed virtus Diuina , quae erat in Christo : It is not Christe , as being Man , that is where so euer twoo or three be geathered together in his name : neither Christe , as being Man , is with vs al daies vntil the worldes end : nor Christ , as being Man , is Present with the Faithful euery where geathered together : but that Diuine power ( or Nature ) that was in Christe . And for that cause S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . in Psalm . 46. Videte Ascendentem : Credite in Absentem : Sperate Venientem : Sed tamen per Mis●ricordiam occultam etiam sentite Praesentem : See you Christe Ascending into Heauen : Beleeue in him being Absent : Trust in Christe , that is to come : And yet by his secrete Mercie feele him Present . Thus , M. Hardinge , thus haue the Olde Catholique Learned Fathers vsed tograte , as ye terme it , vpon the Article of Christes Ascension .

You saie , S. Augustine in his Epistle to Dardanus , spake not of Christes Body , as it is now Present in the Sacrament . No marueile . For S. Augustine neuer vnderstood any sutch kinde of Presence . And who taught you , M. Hardinge , that Christe hath sutche change of diuers Bodies : of one manner in the Sacrament , and of an other manner in Heauen ? Christes Blessed Body , when it was borne of the Virgine , when it died , when it rose againe , when it Ascended into Heauen , was one , and vniforme . How became it afterward so diuerse , and so vnlike it selfe ? If either Christe , or the Apostles , or the Anciente Fathers haue thus taught you , why are they not alleged ? If they haue not thus taught you , how came you by this knowledge ? Or if ye saie , ye know , that they knewe not , who wil beléeue you ?

Ye tel vs , that the Body of Christe in Heauen hath the whole Stature , and Fourme , and Proportion of a Man . This is true : It is the Doctrine of the Apostles , and of the Anciente Doctours of the Churche . But ye tel vs farther of your selfe , that the Body of Christe in the Sacrament is vtterly voyde of al manner either Stature , or Fourme , or Proportion : that is to saie , is neither longe , nor short : nor high , nor low : nor thicke , nor thinne : & , being as you say , a very Natural Body , yet hath neither likenesse , nor shape of a Body . This is your Doctrine , M. Hardinge : and the more vnlikely to be true , the more likely to be yours .

Sutche fantastical imaginations the Arian Heretiques sometime had of the Godhed of Christe . Athanas . contra Arianos Sermane 3. For thus they wrote thereof , as saithe Athanasius : Creatura est : sed non vt vlla ex rebus creatis : Opus est : sed non vt vllum ex operibus : Res condita est : sed non vt vlla ex rebus conditis : It is a Creature : but not as any other of thinges created : It is a thinge wrought : but not as any other thinge , that euer was wrought : &c.

But what saith Athanasius him selfe to al these fantasies ? his answeare is this : Iam videtis vafritiem , & dolos istius Haereseos : quae non ignara , quàm amarulenta sit ista sua malitia , Fourme and Substance . fotos quaerit , & ●●nocinium sibi 〈◊〉 ex verborum disertitudine : Nowe ye see the crookednesse , and ●subtletie of this Haresae : whiche knowinge her owne malice howe 〈◊〉 it is , borowith some he wa● and colo●●e by sleight of woordes .

This Flauianus repreneth the Heretique Eutyches , Epistola Flauiani ad Leon. inter Leon. Epistolas . Adiecit & aliam 〈…〉 Corpus Domini quod en Maria factum est , non esse nostrae Substantiae ; He added 〈◊〉 in other wickednesse , saieinge , that the Body of Christe , that was borne of Mary , is not nowe of our Substance .

〈…〉 the ma●er thus , Caro Christi ipsa est , per Essentiam : non ipsa per Gloria●● : Leo. De Resurrect . Domini . Sermo. 1. The Fleash of Christe in Substance is nowe the same , it was before : but 〈◊〉 Glorie it is not the same .

Noman hereof writeth either more plainely , or more directely , then S. Augustine . Augustin . ad Dardanum epiststol . 57. His woordes be these , Christus sic Venturus est , quemadmodum ire visus est in Ceolum , id est , in eadem Carnis Forma , atque Substantia : Cui profectò . Immortalitatem dedit , Na●turam non abstulit . Secundum hanc Formam non est putandus vbique diffusus . Cauendum est enim , ne ita Diuinitatem astruamus Hominis , vt Veritatem Corporis auferamus : Christe shal come againe ( to Iudge ) euen as he was seene goinge into Heauen , that is to saie , in the selfe same Fourme , and Substance of his Fleash : Vnto whiche Fleash vndoubtedly he hathe geuen Immortalitie : but he hathe not taken from it the Nature of Fleashe . For wee muste take heede , wee doo not so maineteine the Godhead of Christes Humanitie , that we denie the Truthe of his Body .

And where ye fantasie , that the Body of Christe in the Sacramente hathe in it selfe neither Fourme , nor Proportion , nor Limitation of place , nor Distinction of partes , Augustin . in ead . epist. ad Dardanum . S. Augustine telleth you , Spatia locorum tolle Corporibus , & nusquam erunt : & quia nusquam erunt , nec erunt . Tolle ipsa Corpota qualitatibus Corporum , non erit , vbi sint : & ideo necesse est , vt non sint : Take awaye from Bodyes Limitation of place , and the Bodyes wil be no where : and bicause they be nowhere , they wil be nothing . Take awaye from Bodyes the qualities of Bodyes , there wil be no place for them to be in : and therefore the same Bodies muste needes be no Bodies at al. Hereof wée maye conclude , that the Body of Christe , whiche you haue imagined to be conteined Grossely , and Carnally in the Sacramente , for as mutche as , by your owne Confession , it hathe neither Qualitie , nor Quantitie , nor Fourme , nor Place , nor Proportion of Body , therefore , by S. Augustines Doctrine , it is no Body .

Here it is a worlde to sée , what prety sporte M. Hardinge maketh him selfe with the poore Penneman of this Apologie . As God woulde , the Simple Body vnwares alleged Fulgentius cleane againste him selfe . For the woordes of Fulgentius be these : Christus , cùm Absit à nobis per Formam Serui , tamen semper est nobiscum per Formam Dei : Whereas Christe is Absent from vs by the Fourme of a Seruaunte , yet is he euermore Present with vs by the Fourme of God . Whereby , saithe M. Hardinges Commentarie , he meaneth , that Christe is nomore here emonge vs , in Fourme , and Shape of Man , in sutche wise , as wée sée menne liue in the Earthe . And these woordes ( saithe he ) dasshe theire whole purpose : and therefore the Prelates of this newe Englishe Churche , haue altered the sense of them , by shiftinge in this woorde ( Manhoode ) insteede of ( the Fourme of a Seruaunt ) : and this woorde ( Godhead ) in steede of ( the Fourme of God ) .

I beséeche thée , Gentle Reader , spare me a litle thine indifferent eare , leaste in these mysty cloudes of M. Hardinges Distinctions , thou happen to wander , and loose thy way . Al this great adoo riseth onely of some notable difference , that is fansied to be bitwéene these twoo woordes . Fourme , and , Substance . For M. Hardinge would faine haue thée beléeue , that the Substance of Christes Body is in many places : but the Fourme of the same Body can be onely in one place , & not in many .

If I should demaund M. Hardinge this question by the way , wherfore Christes Body in Fourme maye not as wel be in many places togeather , as the same in Substance : or how he knoweth it : or what Doctour , or Father euer taught it : or how wée may be wel assured of it : perhappes he would take a daie , to consider it better . For thus a man might put him in minde of the groundes of his Religion : Sir , ye know , God is Omnipotent , and his power Infinite . Ye maie not make him thral , & subiect to your senses : That were Natural Reason that were Infidelitie . Christe is as wel ●able to dispose of the Fourme of his Body , as of the substance : and can as wel present the one in many places , as the other . How be it , thus mutche onely by the way .

But now , what i● al this great imagined Difference be no Difference ▪ What if these two woordes , Fourme , and Substance , as they be vsed by Fulgentius , be al one ? What then wil M. Hardinge doo with his prety Glose ?

Verily Athanalius saithe thus : a a Athanas . De Definitionib . Na●●ura , Essentia . Genus , Forma Vnum sunt : Nature , Substance , Kinde and Fourme be al One thing . Leo saithe , b b Leo episio . 97. Cap. 3. Quid est , In Forma Dei : in Natura Dei : What is it , To be in the Fourme of God ? He answeareth , It is , To be in the Nature of God . Chrysostome saith , c c Chrysostom . ad Philippen . Homi. 6. Forma Dei , Natura Dei est : The Fourme of God , is y● Nature of God . S. Augustine saithe , d d Augustian . De Tempor . Sermo. 177. De Ascetsio . Sermo. 4. Secundum Formam Dei Christus ipse de se loquitur ▪ Ego & Pater Vnum sumus : As concerning the Former of God , Christe him selfe saithe of him selfe , I and my Father are bothe One. e e Augustin . epist. 177. Likewise againe he saithe , Vna est Forma , quia vna est Diuinitas : The Fourme is one , bicause the Godhed is One.

In like sorte of the Fourme of a Seruant , f f Leo. epi● . 97. Cap. 3. Leo saithe , Quaero quid sit Formam Serui accipere ? Sine dubio Perfectionem Naturae , & Conditionis Humanae : What is it , To take the Fourme of a Seruant ? He answeareth , Doubtlesse it is , To take the perfection of Nature , and state of man . g g Chrysostom . ad Philippen . Homi . 6. Chrysostome saithe , Forma Serui Omnino est Natura Serui : The Fourme of a Seruant verily is the Nature of a Seruant . h h Augustin . in Iohan. tract. 40. S. Augustine saithe , Quando de Forma Serui in Christo cogitas , Humanam Effigiem cogita , si est in te Fides : Whe●● thou thinkest of the Fourme of a Seruant in Christ , thinke of the Shape of a man , if there be any Faithe in thee . i i Augustin . De Essentia Diuinitatis . Againe , Christum secundum Humanitatem , Visibilem , Corporeum , Localem , atque omnia membra Humana veraciter habentem credere conuenit , & confiteri : Wee must beleue , and confesse , that Christ according to his Humanitie , is Visible , hath the Substance and Properties of a Body , is conteined in Place , and verily hath al the members , and the whole Proportion of a man . To leaue al others , k k Haimo , in epist. ad Philip. ca. 2. Haimo saithe , Forman Serui accepit , id est , in Veritate Hominem accepit : He tooke the Fourme of a Seruant , that is to saye , In very Truthe he tooke Man .

Ye sée , M. Hardinge , by these Testimonies of the Ancient Learned Fathers , farre contrarie to your vaine Distinction , that the Fourme of God is nothing els , but God : & the Fourme of Man is nothing els , but Man . Wherfore then haue you thus diuised vs this new Difference ? Wherfore saie you of your owne head , the Fourme , & Substance be so contrarie , seing the Catholique Fathers saie , they be both One ? Or wherefore be you so busy , to trouble the Penneman without cause ? Certainely S. Augustine ioineth Fourme and Substance both togeather , Augustin . ad Dardan . epist. 57. & by the one expoundeth the other : In eadem Forma , atque Substantia : In the same Fourme , and Substance : and againe expoundeth the same Fourme , Veritatem Corporis : The Truthe of a Body .

By these it is plaine , that when Fulgentius saith , the Fourme of God , he meaneth therby the Substance , the Nature , & the Diuinitie of God : And when he saith , the Fourme of a Seruant , he meaneth likewise , the Nature ▪ the Substance , the Truthe , the Perfection , & the Very Manhoode of a Man . And the whole drifte of his discourse is this , that Christe being bothe God , and Man , by the Nature , and Substance of his Godhed is euerywhere : but by the Nature , and Substance of his Manhoode , & Truth of his Body , is onely in one place , and not in moe : agreing therein with these woordes of S. Augustine before rehearsed , De conse. dist 2. Prima . Corpus , in quo Resurrexit , in vno Loco esse Oportet : The Body , wherin he rose againe , must nedes be in oue Place .

Here are wée terribly charged with guileful dealing , with a speciall note also in the Margine , Fulgentius fo why falsified . Wée haue shifted in this woorde , Manhed , in stéede of , Fourme of Man , ctc. the Fourme of a Seruante : and this woorde Godhed , in stéede of , the Fourme of God . And therefore both the Penneman , and the Prelates of our Newe Cleregie must néedes be brought foorth before the barre .

I wil not here tel you , M. Hardinge , how lewdely ye haue demeaned your selfe towardes her , whom it liketh you so often , and so scornefully to cal the Lady Interpreter : a Lady , I wil not saie , of what Learning , vertue , and grauitie : but certainly , as far from al vnwoomanly Presumption , wh●rwith ye so rudely touch her , as you are from al manly modestie : and for ought , that maie appeare by these toies , and trifles , ye haue sent vs ouer , as ful of wisedome , as you of folie . I beséeche you , cal your woordes againe to minde , if you can without blushing : So roughly to handle so softe a Creature . This Phrase of speeche your very frendes haue mutche misliked , and , as it is in déede , so in plaine woordes they cal it Ruffianrie , a vertue , although mutche agreable to your Profession , yet vnméete for a man , either of learning , or of sober wisedome . But this faulte , ●mong many others , as I haue saide , I wil dissemble . Although your whole Booke be vtterly voide of Diuinitie , yet at the least some sense of Humanitie had benne commendable .

But the Prelates of this Newe Cleregie ( you saie ) haue fouly falsified both the woordes , & the sense of Fulgentius . And wherin , M. Harding ? Forsooth in stéede of these woordes , The Fourme of Man , & , The Fourme of God , for the better vnderstanding of the vnlearned , they haue vsed these woordes , as more commonly knowen , Godhed , and Manhed . If this be so faulte , wherefore then is the Olde Father , Vigilius , Li. ● . Contra Eu●ych●tem . & Martyr Vigilius suffered thus to saie , Dei Filius secundum Humanitatem suam recessit à nobis ; Secundum Diuinitatem suam semper est nobiscum : The Sonne of God according to his Manhed is departed from vs : according to his Godhed is euer with vs ? Or againe , Christus est vbique secundum Naturam Diuinitatis suae : & loco continetur secundum Naturam Humanitatis suae : Christe is in al places according to the Nature of his Godhed : and is conteined in One place , according to the Nature of his Manhed .

Wherefore dooth Cyrillus saie , Secundum Carnem Solam abiturus Crat : Adest autem semper virtue Deitatis : Cyrill . in Iohan. li. 9. ca. 21. Gregor. De Pascha . Homi. 30. According to the Fleash onely he woulde departe : But by the power of his Godhed he is euer present . Wherfore doth Gregorie saie . Verbum Incarnatum Manet , & Recedit : Manes Diuinitace , Recedit Corpore : The woord Incarnate bothe abideth with vs , and departeth from vs . It abideth with vs by the Godhed : It departeth from vs by the Body ( or Manhed ? ) Wherefore dooth S. Augustine saie , Ibat per id , quod Homo erat : Manebat per id , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta. 78. quod Deus erat . Ibat per id , quod Vno Loco erat : Manebat per id , quod vbique erat : Christ departed by that he was Man : and aboade by that he was God . He departed by that , that was in One Place : He aboad by that , that is in al Places .

If ye wil yet stand in doubte , what these Holy Fathers meante by the Manhed of Christe , that departed from vs , let S. Augustine open bothe his owne , and their meaninges . Thus he writeth in expresse & plaine woordes touching the same : Secundum Carnem , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta. 50. quam Verbum assumpsit : secundum id , quòd de Virgine natus est : Secundum id , quòd à Iudaeis prehensus est : quòd ligno confixus : quòd de Cruce depositus : quod linteis inuolutus : quòd in sepulchro conditus : quòd in Resurrectione manifestatus , me non semper habebitis vobiscum : According to the Fleash , that the Woorde receiued : according to that , he was borne of the Virgine : according to that , he was taken of the Iewes : According to that , he was nailed to the Tree , taken downe from the Crosse , lapte in a sheete , laide in the graue , and was declared in his Resurrection ( these woordes are true ) Ye shal not haue me alwaies with you . Augustin . in Sermo . in feri . 2. Paschat . Likewise againe he saithe , Dominus noster absentauit se Corpore ab omni Ecclesia , & Ascendit in Coelum : Our Lord , as touching his Body , Absented him selfe from his whole Churche , and Ascended into Heauen .

To be short , if it be so hainous an errour in this case to vse these woordes , Godhed , and Manhed , Fulgentius ad Regem Thra●●mun Li. 2. wherefore is not Fulgentius him selfe reproued for so often vsing the same ? These be his woordes , Secundum Humanitatem suam , Localiter erat in Terra : The Holy Ghoste is God . Secundum Diuinitatem , & Coelum impleuit , & Terram . Vera Humanitas Christi Localis es : Vera Diuinitas semper immensa est . Caro Christi absque dubitatione Localis est : Diuinitas tamen eius vbique semper est . Permansit in Christo Immensa Diuinitas : Suscepta est ab eo Localis Humanitas . Quomodò Ascendit in Coelum , nisi quia Localis , & Verus est Homo ? Quomodò adest Fidelibus , nifi quia idem Immensus , & Verus est Deus ? Christe according to his Manhoode , was placed in Earthe : but according to his Godhed he filled bothe Heauen , and Earthe . The Manhoode of Christe is conteined in Place : The Godhed of Christe is Infinite , and in al places . The Pleash of Christe is doubtelesse in ( One ) place : The Godhead of Christe is for euer in euery place . There remained stil in Christe the Infinite Godhed : There was receiued of him a Local Manhoode . How Ascended he i●to Heauen , sauing that he is very Man conteined in Place ? How is he present with the Faithful , sauing that he is Infinite , and True God ? Last of al he saithe , Vnus idemque Christus , Secundum Humanam Substantiam , aberat Coelo , cùm esset in Terra : & dereliquit Terram , cùm Ascendisset in Coelum : Christe being One , accodinge to the Substance of his Manhoode , was absent from Heauen , when he was in Earthe : and forsooke the Earthe , when he Ascended into Heauen .

Thus many times , M. Hardinge , ye haue these woordes in one place togeather in Fulgentius him selfe : The Godhed : the Manhoode : very God : very Man : The Fleash of Christe : The Substance of the Manhoode . And these ●e the selfe same woordes , that you reproue .

Blotte out therefore for shame that vnaduised note in your Margine : Looke better to your Booke : Woorke hereafter more discretely : and trouble not , neither Pennemenne , nor others , without cause . Otherwise the Penneman wil tel you , what birde bare the feather , that made you a Penne.

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 2.

Wee beleeue that the Holy Ghost , who is the thirde Person in the Holy Trinitie , is very God : not made , not created , not begotten , but proceding from bothe the Father , and the Sonne , by a certaine meane vnknowen vnto man , and vnspeakable : and that it is his propertie to mollifie , & loften the hardnesse of mans hart , when he is once receiued thereinto , either by the holesome preaching of the Gospel , or by any other waye : that he doth geue men light , and guide them vnto the knowledge of God : to al way of Truthe : to newnesse of the whole life : and to euerlasting hope of Saluation .

M. Hardinge .

As wee acknowledge this article to be true and Catholike , so we demaunde of these Defenders . how they can proue the same . Vntruthe . As shal appeare . Haue they either expresse Scripture for it , or any of the first foure general Councels , whiche be estemed of most Authoritie ? We are sure they haue not . Therefore we do them to vnderstand , and if they heare vs not , we aduertise the Readers , that feare God , and loue his truth , that al truthe necessarily to be beleued * * O folie . who euer saide otherwiset expressed in the Scripture : and that * * O folie . who euer saide otherwiset other Councels be to be receiued besides the foure first , which are allowed in England by Parlament .

The B. of Sarisburie

Consider , M. Hardinge , notwithstanding ye euermore tel vs of Fathers , Fathers , yet how contrarie oftentimes ye are in iudgement to the same Fathers . You saie , that the Godhed of the Holy Ghost cannot be proued by expresse Woordes of the Scriptures : and thereof , ye saie , ye are right sure . Yet S. Augustine nothinge douteth , Augustin . contra Literas Petiliani , Li. 3. Ca. 48. but it may wel be proued by plaine Scriptures . Thus he saith , Spiritus Sanctus est Deus . Vnde Petrus , cùm dixisser● Ausus es mentiri Spiritui Sancto , continuò sequutus adiunxit , quid esse : Spiritus Sanctus : & ait , Non es mentitus Hominibus , sed Deo : The Holy Ghost is God . Therefore Peter when he had saide ( vnto Ananias ) thou hast enterprised to lie to the Holy Ghost , he followed readily , and tolde him , what was the Holy Ghost : and saide , Thou hast not sied vnto Man , but vnto God .

Againe he saithe , Augustin . De Morib . Eccle. Catholi . Li. 1. Cap. 16. Ostendit Paulus , Deum esse Spiritum Sanctum , & idò non esse Creaturam : S. Paule sheweth vs , that the Holy Ghost is God : and therefore is no Creature .

Likewise againe he saith , Ne quisquam Spiritum Sanctum negaret Deum , continuò sequutus ait , Glorificate , & portate Deum in Corpore vestro : Least any man should denie , Augustin . Episto . 174. that the Holy Ghost is God , Paule added immediately these woordes : Glorifie you therefore , and beare God in your Body . Here haue wée S. Augustines Yea , and M. Hardinges Nay . S. Augustine assureth vs , he hath Scriptures , to proue the Godhed of the Holy Ghoste : M. Hardinge saithe , wée are sure , he hath none at al. Iudge thou nowe , Gentle Reader , whether of these Doctours thou wilt beléeue .

But what a vaine vanitie , and folie is this ? wil M. Hardinge haue vs beléeue , that God cannot be God , onlesse he be allowed by the Churche of Rome , and by the Pope ? Then are wée come againe to that , the Tertullian writeth merily of the Heathens : Nisi Homini Deus placuerit , Tertull. in Apologetico . Deus non erit : Homo iam Deo propitius esse debebit : Onlesse God please Man wel ( though he be God ) he shal be no God . And so nowe Man must be frendely , and fauourable vnto God .

Wée beleeue , M. Hardinge , that the Holy Ghost is very God in déede , not vpon the Popes , or his Cleregies credite , but , as S. Augustine saith , vpon the special warrante of the Woorde of God .

And therefore Nazianzene saithe , Nazianzenus De Spiritu Sancto . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Dicet aliquis , non esse scriptum , Spiritum Sanctum esse Deum . Atqui proponetur tibi examen Testimoniorum , ex quibus ostendetur , Diuinitatem Sancti Spiritus testatam esse in Sacris Literis : nisi quis valde insulsus sit , & alienus à Spiritu Sancto : Some Man wil saie , It is not written , that the Holy Ghost is God . But I wil bring thee foorth a whole Swarme of Authorities , whereby it shal wel appeare that the Godhed of the Holy Ghost is plainely witnessed in the Holy Scriptures : Onlesse a Man be very dul , and vtterly voide of the Holy Ghoste .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 1.

We beleue , that there is one Churche of God , & that the same is not shutte vp ( as in times past emong the Iewes ) into some One corner or Kingdome , but that it is Catholique , & Vniuersal , and dispersed throughout the whole world . So that there is now no Nation , which may truely complaine , that they be shutte foorth , & may not be one of the Churche & people of God : and that this Church is the Kingdome , the Body , and the Spouse of Christe : that Christe alone is the Prince of this Kingedome : that Christe alone is the Head of this Body : and that Christe alone is the Bridegroome of this Spouse .

M. Hardinge .

It is a world to see these Defenders : They , whiche haue not kepte Vnitie of Spirite in the band of Charitie , Ephes. 4. which S. Paule requireth , but haue seuered them selues from the Body of the Church , tel vs now forsooth , they beleeue , that there is one Churche of God . But what maie wee thinke this one Churche to be ? Can they seme to meane any other ( what so euer they pretend ) then this new Church of late yeeres set vp by Sathan , through the ministerie of Martine Luther and those other Apostates his companions , if it maie be named a Churche , and not rather a Babylonical Tower ? For as touchinge that Churche , whereof * * Vntruth . For the Fathers in the Primitiue Churche neuer toke him so . al Christen People hath euer taken the Successour of Peter to be the Heade vnder Christe , whiche is the true Catholike Churche , in theire Apologie they sticke not to saie plainely , that it is clene fallen downe longe agone . And therefore the beginning of Luthers Seditious , and Heretical preaching they cal Herbam , as muche to saie , as the greene Grasse , or first spring ( this interpreter nameth it the very first appearing ) of the Gospel , Looke in the leafe H. 7. b. leafe . F. 7. And in the leafe . F. 8. they saie that fortie yeeres agone and vpward , that is at the first setting foorth of Luther and Zuinglius , the Truth was vnknowen and vnheard of , and that they first came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel . Likewise in an other place they graunt , Leafe E. 2 : In Latine they terme it exortam Euangelii . that certaine and very strange sectes haue ben stirringe in the worlde euer since the Gospel did spring , meaning the time when Luther first brinced to Germanie the poisoned Cuppe of his Heresies , Blasphemies , and Sathanismer .

Thus hauing condemned the Churche of God , whiche was before Luthers time , and allowinge that for the true Churche , the Gospel whereof first sprang out of Luther : how can they auouche theire belefe , and by what reason and learning can they make good , that there is one Churche of God ? Wee would faine knowe , whiche and where it is . Is Luther and his congregation that one Churche of God , or Zuinglius and his rable , or Osiunder and his sort , or Zuenckfeldius and his secte , or Stancarus and his band , or Balthasar Pacimontane and his rancke ? For al these , and certaine other sectes haue * * Vntruth , As shal appeare . Luther for their founder , and for their Radix Iesse , as it were , from whence they spring : And in deede euery learned man easely seeth , how the gutters of their Doctrines runne out of Luthers sincke . Of al these there is none , but stoutly claimeth the name of the Churche .

Then how saie ye , Defenders , whiche Churche be ye ? name the Childe . Yf ye name one , wee sette the others against you . &c.

How often in his bookes putteth Luther you , and your Captaines in the rolle of those , that he vtterly condemneth , naminge roundly togeather , Infidels , Turkes , Epicures , Heretikes , Papistes , Sacramentaries ? And nowe if he should heare you chalenge the name of the one Churche of God to you , and denie him and his folowers that claimed title : would he not ( thinke ye ) stampe and rage , would he not whetie his dogge eloquence vpon you , and cal you worse then these aboue rekened , yea and if he wist how , worse then some of you be your selues ? The like courtesie maieye looke for at those other sectes , of whiche euery one claimeth the name of this one Churche of God .

But ye saie , that this One Churche is not shutte vp into some one corner , or Kingdome , but that it is Catholike , and Vniuersal , and dispersed through out the whole world . True it is , that ye saie , Catholike Churche . Why is the Churche called Catholike . Threefold Vniuersalitie an infallible marke to knowe the Churche by . what so euer ye thinke . But the Holy learned and auncien : Fathers , where they cal and beleeue the Catholike Churche , they meane ( as Vincentius Liriuensis declareth ) the Churche to be Catholike , that is to saie Vniuersal , ( for so the word signifieth ) in respecte of a threefold Vniuersalitie : of places , whiche this Defender here toucheth : of times , and of menne , whiche he toucheth not . In the Catholike Churche we must haue a great care ( saithe he . ) that we hold that , whiche hath euery where , euermore , and of al persons ben beleeued . If these Defenders proue not the Churche , they professe them selues to be of , to haue this threefold Vntuer salitie , then is their Congregation not this one Churche , nor of this one Churche of God , but the synagog of Antichriste .

And although the Authours of this Apologie crake of the great increase , and spredding abroade of their Gospel , and now glorie in the number of Kingedomes , Dukedomes , Countries , common Weales , and Free Cities : Yet hath it not gone so farre abroade as the Arians heresie did by three partes of foure : Whiche was at length vtterly extinguished , as this shal be .

That the Catholike Churche is the Kingedome , Christe alone Prince , Head , Bridegrome , Spouse of the Churche . In respect of outward gouernment the name of Head is attributed to others beside Christe . the Body and the Spouse of Christe , we acknowledge . Of the same Kingdome we confesse and beleeue Christ to be Prince alone , so as he is Heade of this Body alone , and so as he is Bridegrome of this spouse alone . For Head and Spouse alone he is in one respect , not alone in an other respect . According to the in ward influence of Grace . Christe properly and onely is Head of his Mystical Body the Churche : But as touching the outwarde Gouernment , the being of a Head is common to Christe with others . For in this respect certaine others maie be called Heads of the Churche , as in Amos the Prophete the * * Amos. 6. Reg. 17. Psal. 17. & Cor. ● . great States be called the Heads of the People . So the Scripture speaketh of Kinge Saule , When thou were a litle one in thine owne eies , thou wastinade Head emong the Tribes of Israel . So Dauid saithe of him selfe , he hath made me Head of Nations .

Men be called Heads , in as muche as they be in stede of Christe , and vnder Christe : after which meaning S. Paule saith to the Corinthians , For if I forgaue any thing , to whom I forgaue it , for your sakes forgaue I , it , In persona Christi , In the Person of Christe . And in an other place , Wee are Ambassadours in the stede of Christe , Catholique in many , or fewe . as though God did exhort you through vs . To conclude in fewe , according to inwarde influence of grace into euery faithful member , Christe onely is Head of the Churche : according to outward gourning the * * Vntruthe . what Scripture , or Doctour euer said so ? Pope vnde Christ and in sted of Christ is hed of the same .

As touching the Bridegromesbip , we saie and beleeue , that if we would speake properly , 2. Corin. 5. Christ the true Bridegrome , the Pope vnderbridgrome of the Churche , Ioan. 3. Christ is the onely Bridegrome of the Church his spouse of whom it is said he that hath a spouse , is a Bridegrome . For from one of the Churche he begetteth children to himselfe . But others are called Bridegromes . Working together with Christe outwardly to the begetting of spiritual children , whom neuerthelesse they begette not to them selues , but to Christe . And suche are called the ministers of the Bridegrome , in as muche as they done his stede . And therefore the Pope , who is instede of Christe the Bridegrome of the whole Churche , is * * Vntruthe : For the Aucient Fathers neuer called him so . called also the Bridegrome of the vniuersal Churche : a man maie terme him the vicegerent Bridegrome .

The B. of Sarisburie .

I trust , Gentle Reader , thou wilt not looke , I should answeare al M. Hardinges ordinarie idle talke . So should I lose good time without cause , and be ouer troublesome to thine eates . O , saithe he , What a world it is , to see these Defenders ? They , whiche haue not keapt the vnitie of the Sprite , in the band of Charitie , whiche S. Paule requireth , but haue seuered them selues from the Body of the Churche , tel vs nowe for soothe , that they beleeue , that there is one Churche of God . O , M. Hardinge , if wée haue herein saide il , then beare witnesse of the il : If wée haue saide wel , wherefore make you these vitter outcries ? What so euer ye haue conceiued vs to be , yet might ye suffer vs quietly to saie the Truthe , specially sutche Truthe , as you imagine maketh so mutche for your selfe .

Ye say , wée confesse , that our Churche beganne onely about fourtie yeeres sithence , and was neuer before . No , M. Hardinge , wée confesse it not : and you your selfe wel knowe , wée confesse it not . It is your tale : it is not ours . Wée saie , and haue sufficiently proued , and you knowe it right wel , if ye would be knowen of that ye know , that our Doctrine is the Olde , & yours is the Newe , Yf ye wil néedes force your selfe to the denial , it may easily be proued , & that by sutch Authoritie , as your selfe may not wel denie : onlesse ye wil once againe do now , as ye haue twise done before .

Wée saie , that our Doctrine , & the order of our Churches is older then yours by fiue hundred whole yeeres and more . If ye wil not beleeue vs , yet beleeue M. Hardinge : M. Hardinge Foli. 15. a. he wil tel you euen the same . Marke wel his woordes : These they be : It standeth not with Christe his promises made to the Churche , that he should suffer his Church to continue in darkenesse these thousand yeeres past .

And thus by secrete confession , he leaueth vs fiuehundred three score and sixe whole yeeres at the least : that is to saie , the whole time of Christe , of his Apostles , and of al the Godly Learned Doctours , and Fathers of the Primitiue Churche . Whiche time notwithstanding is thought a great deale better , and purer , then al the time , that hath folowed afterwarde . In this Diuision M. hardinge being attente , and eger vpon his cause , and claiming as mutche , as he thought with any modestie he might be hable , hath claimed to him selfe onely a thousand yeeres of the night : and hath leafte vs welneare sixe hundred yeeres of the daie .

This is your owne witnesse , M. Harding : Consider wel of it . It is your owne . Therefore ye doo your selfe great wronge , and mutche deface your owne credite , so suddainely to saie , our Doctrine is Newe . Gods name be blessed , it hath the Testimonie , not onely of Christe , and his Apostles , but also of the olde Learned Catholique Fathers of the Churche . And this is it , that so mutche greeueth you , that wee refourme our Churches nowe according to the paterne , and samplar of Christes , and his Apostles firste Institution . For thereby the disorder , and deformitie of your Churches the more appeareth .

Lirinensis saithe , Vincentius Lirinensis That thing must be holden for Catholique , that euerywhere , euermore , and of al menne hath benne beleeued . These general notes must be limited with this special restrainte : Catholique in many , or fewe . Where as the Churches were not corrupted . For otherwise there was neuer any Doctrine so Catholique , ne not the Confessed Doctrine of Christe him selfe , that hath benne receiued , Euermore , & , Euerywhere , and of al menne without any exception . But , M. Hardinge , these selfe same notes of Lirinests vtterly euerthrowe the greatest part of that whole Doctrine , that you would so saine haue counted Catholique . For neither reacheth to within fiue hundred yeeres of the Apostles time : nor hath it that Antiquitte indeed , that in face , and countenance is pretended , as it is plaine by your owne former Confession : nor was it euer vniuersally receiued , as herafter by Particulares it shal be proued . It had neuer that vniuersalitie , neither of al times , and ages : nor of al places , and countries : nor was it euer vniuersally receiued & allowed of al men . Therefore , what so euer ye cal it , ye cannot by your owne Definition cal it Catholique .

The Catholique Churche of God standeth not in multitude of Persones , but in weight of Truthe . Otherwise Christe him selfe , and his Apostles had not ben Catholique . For his flocke was very litle : & the Catholique , or Vniuersal consent of the World stoode against it . The Churche of God is compared to the Moone : for that she waxethe , and waneth , as the Moone dothe , & sometime is ful , sometime is emptie : Augustin . de Gene. ad liter . Cap. 1. and therefore , as S. Augustine saith , is called Catholica , quia Vniuersaliter perfecta est , & in nullo claudicat , & per totum Orbem diffusa est : Bicause she is Vniuersally perfite , and halteth in nothing , and is ( not now shut vp in one onely Countrie , as was the Churche of the Iewes , but ) powred throughout the whole World . Though the hartes of men haue often changes , yet Gods Truthe is euermore one : and , be it in many , or in fewe , is euer Catholique . Thus , M. Hardinge , it is written by one of your owne side : Fortalitium Fidei , Li. 5. Etsi non nisi duo Homines remanerent in Mundo , tamen in eis saluaretur Ecclesia , quae est Vnitas Fidelium : Although there were but two men remaining in the world , yet euen in them two the Churche , whiche is the Vnitie of the Faithful , should be soued .

Luthers dogge eloquence , for so , M. Hardinge , it liketh you of your modestie to cal it , were it neuer so rough , and vehement , the iust zele of Gods glorie , and of his Holy Temple , whiche you so miserably had defaced , so enforcing him , yet was it neuer any thing comparable to your eloquence . For , I beséeche you , if ye maie haue leasure , harken a litle , & heare your selfe talke . Behold your owne woordes , so many , so vaine , so bitter , so firie , so furious , al togeather in one place : This newe Churche , ye saie , set vp by Sathan : Martine Luther , and other Apostates his companions : This Babylonical Tower : Luthers seditious , and Heretical preaching : Luther brinced to Germanie the poisoned Cuppe of his Heresies , Blasphemies , and Sathnismes : Zuing lius , and his rable : The gutters of this Doctrine runne out of Luthers sincke : Luther would stamps , and rage , and whette his dogge eloquence vpon you : You are the Synagog of Antichriste . These be the Figures , and Flowers of your speache . Yet must we thinke , that ye can neither stampe , nor rage : but vse onely Angelles eloquence . How be it . I trust , no wise man wil iudge our cause the worse , for that your tongue can so readily serue you to speake il .

To the mater , ye saie , that , touching the influence of Erace , Christe onely is the Head of the Churche : but touching Direction , & Gouernment , the Pope onely is the Head . Al this is but your owne tale , M. Hardinge : Ye speake it onely of your selfe : Other Authoritie of Scripture , or Doctour ye bringe ve-none .

And yet notwithstanding , ye haue alleged Scriptures too , God wote , euen as ye haue vsed to doo in other places .

Ye saie , 2. Corin. 2. 2. Corin. 5. S. Paule saithe , Yf I forgaue any thing , for your sakes I forgaue it , in the personne of Christe : Wee are Embassadours in the steede of Christe , euen as though God did exhorte you through vs : Hereof ye conclude , Ergo , The Pope vnder Christe , and in the steede of Christe is Heade of the Churche . Yf ye conclude not thus , ye wander idlely , and speake in vaine , & condlude nothing . These woordes of S. Paule nothing touche the Pope , but onely the faithful , & zelous Preacher of the Gospel . For wherein dothe the Pope resemble S. Paule ? Heade Wherein doothe he reprosente the Personne of Christe ? What exhorteth he ? What teacheth he ? What saithe he ? What doothe he ? And yet if he would do any one part of his whole duetie , how might this Argument stand for good : S. Paule being at the Cittie of Philippi in Maerdonia , exhorted the Corinthians , as in the Personne of Christe : Ergo , the Pope being at Rome in Italie , although he neither exhorte , nor preache , yet is he the Head of the Vniuersal Churche ? Although Diuinitie goe harde with you , yet ye shoulde haue seens better to your Logique .

I graunte , Bishoppes may be called the Heades of theire seneral Churches . So Chrysostome calleth a a Chrysostom in Epist ad Roma . hom. 18. Elias Caput Prophetarum , The Head of the prophetee : So Amos saith , b b Amos. 6. The Princes are the Heades of the people : So Saul is called c c 1. Regum . 15. the Head of the Tribes of Israel : So Dauid was made d d Psalm. 17. Caput Gentium , The Head of Nations : Sondrie sutch other like examples I alleged in my Former e e Articul . 4. Diui. 32. Replie to M. Hardinge : As that Cyrillius the Bishop of Alexandria , in the Councel of Ephesus was called f f Cyrill . tomo . 4. Epist. 5. Caput Episcoporum congregatotum , The Head of the Bishoppes , that these were assembled : That S. Gregorie saith , g g Gregor. in . 1. Regum . lib. 4. Cap. 4. Paulus ad Christum conuersus Caput effectus est Natlonūm Paule being once conuerted to Christe , was made the Head of Nation : That Prudentius saithe , h h Prudentius in Enchiridio . Sancta Bethlem Capur eitorbis : Holy Bethlem is the Head of the World . In this sense Optatus saithe , i i Optatus Li. 1. & 2. There be foure sortes of Heades in the Churche , the Bishops , the Priestes , the Deacons , The Faithful : And al this onely in a certaine kinde of phrase , and manner of speache . But in déede and verily S. Augustine saithe , k k Augustin contra Liter . Petil. Li. 1. Ca. 5. Paulus ipse non poterat Caput esse eorum , quos plantauerat : Paule him selfe could not be the Head of them , whom he had planted , Therefore Gregorie saithe , l l Gregor. Li. 4. Epist. 38. Petrus Apostolus Primum , Membrum Sanctae & Vniuersalis Ecclesiae est . Paulus , Andreas , Iohannes , quid aliud , quam singularium sunt plebium Capita ? Tamen sub Vno Capite omnes Membra sunt Ecclesiae , Arque ve cuncta breui cingulo locutionis astringam , sancti ante Legem , Sacti in Lege , Sancti sub Gratia : Omnes hi perficientes Corpus Domini in Membris sunt Ecclesiae constituti . Et nemo se vnquam Vniueisalem vocari voluit : Peter the Apostle is ( not the Head , but ) the chiefe Member of the Holy Vniuersal Churche . Paule , Andrewe , and Iohn , what are they els , but the Heades of seueral Nations ? Yet notwithstandinge vnder one Head ( Christe ) they are al Members of the Churche . And to speake shortely , the Sainctes before the Lawe , Peter was a member of the Churche but not the Heade . the Sainctes in the time of Grace , al accomplisshing the Lordes Body , are placed emonge the Members of the Churche , And there was neuer yet one , that would haue him selfe called the Vniuersal Bishop , Therfore where as M. Hardinge saithe , Al Christian People haue euer taken the Successour of Peter to be the Heade of the Catholique Churche vnder Christ , he speaketh it onely of him selfe . Iohan. 8. And though the comparison be odious , yet Christe saithe , Cùm loquitur mendacium , ex proprijs loquitur : when he speakethe Vntruthe , he speaketh it of his owne . S. Gregorie saithe , Peter was the chiefe Member of the Churche of Christe : but not the Head .

But the Bishop of Rome , De Election . ca. Licet Abb. and his hired Proctours haue taught vs farre otherwise . Panormitane saithe : Christus & Papa faciunt vnum Consistortum : & , excepto peccaio , Papa potest , quicquid Deus ipse potest : Christe , and the Pope make one Consistone , and keepe one Courte : And , sinne onely excepted , the Pope can doo , what so euer God him selfe can doo . This , I trowe , is that Head of Direction , and Gouernmente , that M. Hardinge meaneth .

As for the reste , that the Churche is the Kingedome of Christe , and the Pope the Prince thereof , Extra . Noult ille , In gloss . M. Hardinge in special woordes answeareth nothinge . Notwithstandinge some others haue saide , Petro & Coelestis , & Terreni Imperij iura commissa sunt : Vnto Peter was committed the right both of the Heauenly , and also of the Earthely Empiere .

Last of al he doubteth not , Orders . but the Pope maye be called the Spouse , or Bridegrome of the Vniuersal Churche : and yet the same without the Authoritie of any Doctour . He allegeth onely S. Bernarde : But the same S. Bernarde in the selfe same place saithe , and that by M. Hardinges owne confession , that the Pope is not the Bridegrome of the Churche . And therefore he was faine to expounde his meaninge , and to weigh him downe of the other side with his prety Glose . But S. Bernarde , without Glose saithe plainely : Non sunt omnes amici Spousi , qui hodiè sunt Sponsi Ecclesae : Bernard in Concil. Remensi . Bernard ad Euigeni . de Considera . Li. 3. They be not al the Bridegromes frendes , that are this daye the Spouses of the Churche , O miserandain Sponsam ralibus creditam Paranymohis . Non accici Sponsi , sed aemuli sunt : O miserable is that Spouse , that is committed to sutche Leaders . They are not the frendes , they are the enimies of the Bridegrome .

How be it wée néede not greatly to recke , what styles , and titles the Pope can vouchesaue to allowe him selfe . As he may be called the Heade , the Prince , and the Spouse : euen so , and by like authoritie , and truthe , may he be called the Light , the Life , the Saueour , and the God of the Churche .

God geue him an harte to vnderstande , that hée maie be , although not the Heade , yet a Member of that Body although not the Prince , yet a Subiecte in that Kingedome : although not the Bridegrome , yet a Childe of the Churche of God .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 1.

Furthermore ( wee Beleeue ) that there be diuers degrees of Ministers in the Churche : whereof some be Deacons , some Priestes , some Bishoppes : to whom is committed the office to instructe the people , and the whole charge , and settinge foorthe of Religion .

M. Hardinge .

Here it had ben your parte to haue declared your faithe touching the Holy Sacrament of Order , Sacramonte of Order By good reason . agreable to the faith of the Catholike Churche : That there be seuen orders in the Churche , foure lesser , and three greater : Vntruthes boldly presumed , as by the aunsweare it may appeare . for so by good reason they are called . And as for the institution , auctoritie , and estimation of the greater , specially of Priesthood and Deaconship , ye might haue alleged the Scriptures : so for the Lesser the example of Christe , the Tradition of the Apostles , and the testimonies written of the Apostles scholers , of those that bothe nexte , and sone after folowed them , namely Dionys . cap. 3. Hierarch . Ecclesiast. Ignatius epist. 8. ad Ecclesiam Antiochenam , Tertullian in praescript . aduersus Hereticos , Gaius Pope and Martyr in Diocletians time , Sozimus in S. Augustines time , Isychius , Eusebius Caesariensis is his Ecclesiastical historie , and Epiphanius in the ende of his Booke contra Haereses .

The B. of Sarisburie

Gentle Reader , if I should leaue these , and other like M. Hardinges woordes vnansweared , thou mightest happily thinke , he had saide somewhat . Here , he saithe , it had benne our Parte to haue tolde thée of Seuen Orders in the Churche , thrée Greatter , and foure Lesse : Hauing in déede him selfe cleane forgotten his owne Parte . For notwithstandinge this controlment , and accoumpte of so many Orders , yet he nameth no moe Orders , then wée haue named . And verily , if he would haue folowed his owne Authorities , it had benne hard for him , in any good Order to haue made vp his owne accoumpte .

For his owne Anacletus saithe , Ampliùs , quàm isti Duo Ordines Sacerdotum , ( Episcopi , & Presbyteri ) nec nobis à Deo collati sunt , Anacletus Epistola . 3. Hieronym . ad Euagrium nec Apostoli docuerunt : More then these two Orders of Priestes ( Bishoppes , and Elders ) neither hathe God appointed vs , nor hauen the Apostles tought vs . And yet of these same Two seueral Orders , S. Hierome semeth to make onely One Order . For thus he writeth : Audio , quendam in tantam erupisse vecordiam , Orders . vt Diaconos Presbyteris , id est , Episcopis anteferret : I heare saye , there is a man broken out vnto sutche wilful furie , Hieronym . in eadem Epistola . that he placeth Deacons before Priestes , that is to saye , before Bishops : And againe : Apostolus praecipué docer , eosdem esse Presbyteros , quos Episcopos : The Apostle , Paule , specially teacheth vs , that Priestes , and Bishoppes be al one . Hierony in Esai , Cap 19. Catechumeni . The same S. Hierome writinge vpon the Prophete Esai , reckenethe onely fiue Orders , or Degrees in the whole Churche : The Bishoppes , the Priestes , the Deacons , the Entrers , or Beginners , and the Faitheful . And other Order of the Churche he knoweth none .

Clemens saithe , Clemens Epist. 2. De con. 〈◊〉 st 3. Tribus gradibus Tribus gradibus eommissa sunt Sacramenta Diuinorum Secretorum , id est , Presbytero , Diacono , & Ministro : The Mysteries of the Holy Secresies be committed vnto three Orders : that is , vnto the Priestes , vnto the Deacons , and vnto the Ministers : And yet Deacons , and Ministers , as touchinge the name , are al one .

Dionysius likewise hathe thrée Orders , Dionysi Eccle. Hierar . Cap. 5. but not the same : For he rekenethe Bishoppes , Priestes , & Deacons . And whereas M. Hardinge maketh his accoumpte of Foure of the Lesse , or Inferiour Orders , meaning thereby , Ostiarios , Lectores , Exorcistas , Acoluthos : The Doore keepers , the Readers , the conuerers , and the Waiters , or Folowers : Ignatius ad Antiochen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hierony . De 7. ordinibus Eccl. His owne Ignatius addethe thereto thrée other Orders : Cantores , Laboratores , Confitentes : The Chounters or Singers , the Labourers , and the Confessours . Elemens addeth thereto , Catechistas , The Infourmers , or Teachers of them that were entringe into the Faithe . A litle vaine Booke , bearinge the name of S. Hierome , De Septem Ordinibus Ecclesiae , addeth yet an other Order , and calleth them Fossarios , that is , The Sextines , or Ouerseers of the Graues . And , least you should thinke he rekeneth this Order , as emongst other necessarie offices to serue the people , and not as any parte of the Cleregie , his wordes be these , Primus in Clericis Fossariorum Ordo est : qui in similitudinem Tobiae Sancti sepelire morruos admonet : The Firste Order of the Cleregie , is the Order of the Sextines : whiche , as Holy Tob●e was woonte to doo , casse vppon the people for the burial of the deade .

Likewise to the thrée greater Orders Isidorus addeth an other distincte & seueral Order of Bishoppes : Isidor . Elymolog . Lib. 1. Cap. 12. Scotui in 4. Sen. Distin. 24. Qu. 1. Ambros in Epist. Ad Ephe. Cap. 4. vnto whom agréethe Gulielmus Altisiodorensis , & Gottofredus Pictauiensis , as appeareth by Iohannes Scotus . Againe of the other Inferiour Orders , S. Hierome leaueth out the Coniurers , & Waiters : S. Ambrose leaueth out the Waiters , and Doore Keepers : The Canons of the Apostles leaue out Coniurers , Waiters , and Doore keepers , al thrée togeather .

In this so greate dissension , & darkenesse , what waie wil M. Hardinge take , to folow ? By Anacletus , there be Two Orders : by Clemens , & S. Hierome , Thrée : by Hierome Countrefeite , Seuen : by others Eight , by other Nine , by others Tenne .

At this notwithstandinge , he telleth vs , our parte had benne , to haue shewed , that there be iuste Seuen Orders in the Churche , Thrée greate , and Foure Lesse , withoute doubte , or question .

Here , gentle Reader , it had benne M. Hardinges parte to haue shewed vs the Reasons , and Groundes of this Diuinitie : These they be , as they are alleged by the beste of that side : Petrus Lombar . senten Lib. 4. Distin. 24. Christe saith , I am the Doore : Ergo , there muste be in the Churche an Order of Doore Keepers . Christe saithe , I am the Light of the World : Hereupon haue thei founded the Order of Acolutes , to carrie Tapers . And so for the reste . Thus mutche maie serue for a taste .

Now let vs consider , what these Orders haue to doo , and with how Holy , and weighty offices they stand charged in the Churche of God . Firste Clemens ( of whoes Authoritie M. Hardinge maket be no smal accoumpte , for he calleth him the Apostles folowe ) writeth thus : Clement consi . Apost. Li. 8. Ca. 15. Vnus Hypodiaconus det aquam manibus Sacerdotum : Duo Diaconi ex vtàque parte Altaris teneat flabellum confectum ex tenuibus membranis , vel ex Pauonum pennis , quibus leuiter abigant praeteruclantes bestiolas , Orders . ne in Pocula incidant : Let one of the Subdeacons geue Water to the Priestes handes : Let two Deacons stande at the two endes of the Austore : either of them with a fanne made of fine Parchemente , or of Pecockes taises , therewith softely to chase awaie the fl●es , that they fal not into the Communion Cuppes . The offices of other Inferioure Orders be these , as they be noted by one of M. Hardinges owne side : Aureum Speculum Pap● . Ad Minores Ordines haec spectant : Portare Cereos , & Vrceolum : & Canes expellere de Ecclesia : To the sesse Orders these thinges belonge : to carrie Tapers , and Holy Water stockes : and to dr●ue Doogges of the Churche . These , I trowe , be the Mystical Holy Orders , whereof M. Hardinge saithe , Our parte had benne , to haue made somme songe discourse : beinge him selfe ashamed , as it maie appeare by his silence , either to name them in particulare , or to open the Secretes of theire offices .

Howe be it in deede , good Christian Reader , sundrie of these offices in the Primitiue Churche were appointed to very good , & sober purposes : The Doore keepers office was then , to keepe out Excommunicate personnes , that they should not presse in emonge the Faithful : The Psalmistes , or Singers office was , to singe the Psalmes , thereby to moue the peoples hartes to deuotion : The Exorcistes office was , by a special gifte of God ▪ seruinge onely for that time , to cal foorth soule Sprites out of the Bodies of them , that were possessed . The Readers office was , openly , and plainely , and distinctely to pronounce the Scriptures vnto the people : and to this vse the Bishop deliuered vnto him a Booke with this charge : ●ist 23. Lector . Accipe , & esto relator Verbi Dei : Take thou this Booke , and be thou a pronounc●r of the Woorde of God . ●ist . 23. Cleros . And therefore Isidorus saithe , Tanta , & ●am clara erit eius vox , vt quamuis long● positorum aures adimpleat : The Readers voice muste be so sowd , and so cleare , that it maye be hable to fille the eates of them , that stande far of . The Acolothes , or Waiters office was , to attende vpon the Bishop , as a witnesse of his conuersation .

To sutche good vses these offices then serued in the Churche of God . But now there is nothinge leafte , sauinge the bare name onely , without any maner vse , or Office . For neither doothe the Ostiarius kéepe out the Excommunicates : Nor doothe the Acoluthus waite vpon the Bishop : Nor doothe the Exorciste cast foorthe Diuels : Nor doothe the Psalmiste Singe the Psalmes : Nor doothe the Reader openly pronounce the Scriptures : ( I might yet steppe alitle farther , to open the whole bewtie of the Cleregte of Rome ) nor doothe the Deacon make prouision for the poore : nor doothe the Bishop preache the Woorde of God .

This had benne our parte to haue opened at large : And for leaning of the same , we were woorthy by M. Hardinges iudgemente , to be reproued .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 2.

Yet notwithstanding , wee saie , that there neither is , nor can be any one man , whiche may haue the whole Superioritie in this Vuiuersal state : for that Christe is euer presente to assiste his Churche , and needeth not any man , to supplie his roome , as his onely heire to al his Substance : and that there can be no one mortal creature , whiche is hable to comprehend , or conceiue in his mind the Vniuersal Churche , that is to wite , al the partes of the world : mutche lesse hable rightly , and duely to put them in order , and to Gouerne them .

The B. of Sarisburie .

M. Hardinges answeare hereto is longe , and tedious . The Substance therof in short is this : Where wée saie , No one Mortal Man is hable to wealde the burthen of the whole Churche of God , M. Hardinge answeareth : Where any thinge is in deede , there whether it may be , or no ▪ to discusse , it is needlesse . Therefore whether any one man can be superiour , and chiefe ouer the whole Churche , wee leaue to speake : that so it is , thus wee proue : Euery Parrishe hathe his seueral Vicare , 1. or Personne : And euery Dioces his owne Bishop . Ergo , what reason is it , there be not one Chiefe Gouernoure of the whole Christen people ?

When questions be moued in maters of Faithe , 2. throughe diuersities of iudgementes the Churche should be diuided , onlesse by Authoritie of One it were kepte in Vnitie .

They , 3. that saie otherwise , take from Christe the Glorie of his prouidence , and the praise of his greate loue towardes his Churche .

The Peace of the Churche is more conueniently procured by one , 4. then by many .

It is moste meete , that the Churche Militante , touchinge Gouernment , 5. resemble the Churche Triumphante . But in the Triumphante Churche one is Gouernoure ouer the whole , that is God : Therfore in the Churche Militant order requireth , that one beare rule ouer al accordinge to that the Holy Captaine Iosue seemeth to speake , Iosue , 1. The Children of Iuda , and the Children of Israel shal aessemble togeather , A greate ouerfight : For these be the woordes , not of the Captaine Iosua , but of the Prophete Osee . and they shal make to them selues one Head : Thereof our Lord saithe in S. Iohn , Iohan. 10. There shal be One Folde , and One Shephearde .

In deede Christe is Heade of his Body . Yet neede it is , for as mutche as Christe nowe dwelleth not with vs in Visible Presence , his Churche haue one Man to doo his steede of outwarde rulinge in Earthe : And therefore he saide vnto Peter , Feede my Flocke : Confirme they Brethren .

Thus wee see these Defenders Negatiue Doctrine , That no One Man maie haue the Superioritie ouer the whole state of the Churche , disproued , as vtterly false .

To theire seconde reason , Loe. we graunt , Christe needed not any man to supplie his roome , that should succede in his whole Substance . Neither is Man of Capacitie of sutche succession : * * Vntruthe . For Panormitane saithe , Papa potest , quic quid Deus ipse potest . neither hathe there any sutche fonde saieinge ben vttered by the Diuines .

But bicause Christe sawe the knot of Vnitie should be moste surely kepte knit by Gouernmente of one , he * * Vntruthe . committed the regiment of the whole Churche vnto One : whoes Visible Ministerie he might vse in steede of him selfe .

To the thirde we saye , that Man is not onely hable to comprehende in his minde , and conceiue the Vniuersal Churche , but also to put it in order , and to Gouerne it so far as is expedient .

Laste of al , who so euer wil not be fedde nor ruled by this one Shepheard , and breaketh out of this one Folde , he is not of the Flocke of Christe , but of the Hearde of Antichriste .

Here , Gentle Reader , M. Hardinge hathe brought thée , not the Authoritie of any one Catholique Doctour , or Learned Father , but onely a few colde Reasons of his owne , with certaine Scriptures vnaduisedly alleged , and violently forced from theire meaninge , as shal soone appeare .

His firste Reason concludeth very weakely : Euery parishe is gouerned by One Vicare , 1. or Personne : & euery Diocese is gouerned by One seueral Bishop : Ergo , ther is One Vniuersal Gouernour ouer the whole Churche of Christe . Here is neither order in Reason , nor sequele in nature . Therefore if any man woulde denie the Argument , M. Hardinge were neuer hable to make it good . He might as wel , and in as good order reason thus : Euery Kingdome , or Common Weale hathe One Prince , or Magistrate to rule ouer it : Ergo , There is One Vniuersal Prince , to rule ouer the whole worlde . Or thus , Euery Flocke of Shéepe bathe One Seueral Shephearde to ouersée them : Ergo , al the Flockes through the world are ouerséene by One General Shephearde . Otherwise , M. Hardinge imagineth , this fowle absurditie muste néedes folowe , that the parte is better Gouerned , then the whole .

The other thrée Reasons , 2. 3. 4. In the fourthe Article , and in the 18. and 19. touchinge the Prouidence of God , the Debatinge of questions in Faithe , and conseruinge of Peace , and Vnitie in the Churche , are answeared already in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . Diuisions . In déede , I remember , to auouche al that M. De Maior . & Obedien. Vnam Sanctam . In Glossa . Hardinge hathe here saide , one sometimes wel inclined to that side , saide thus : Non videretur Dominus discretus fuisse ( vt cum reuerentia eius loquar ) nisi Vnicum post se talem Vicarium reliquisset , qui haec omnia posset : Christe our Lorde should not haue seemed to haue dealte discretely ( to speake it with reuerence ) onlesse he had leafte One sutche Vicare behinde him , Vnitie by one Pope . that might haue donne al these thinges .

I graunte , Dissension , and quarrelles be the sooner ended , when al thinges be put ouer to one Man : So that the same one Man maye liue for euer , and stil continewe in one minde , and neuer alter . But oftentimes one Pope is sounde contrarie to an other : Platyna in Sabini ano . Sabellicus Enneade . 9. Lib. 1. Platyna , in Stephano Sexto . Platyna , in Romano . 1. & sometimes one Pope hathe benne found contrarie to him selfe . Pope Sabinianus would haue burnte al Pope Gregories Bookes : And , as it is saide before , Pope Romanus vtterly abolished al the Actes of his Predecessour Pope Steuin : The same Pope Steuin vnburied his Predecessour Pope Formosus , and defaced , and mangled his naked carkesse , and vtterly condemned al , that had benne donne by him before : And Platina geuethe this general iudgemente of them , Nihil aliud isti Pontificuli cogitabant , quàm vt Nomen , & Dignitatem Maiorum suorum extinguerent : These litle Petite Popes had none other care in the world , but howe to deface the Name , and Estimation of other Popes , that had benne before them . And thus , that one Pope liketh , an other misliketh : that one alloweth , an other condemneth . And yet by M Hardinges iudgement , wée haue none other rule to staie by in doubtful cases , but onely the Wil , and Pleasure of the Pope .

Howe be it , this , I trowe , is not the readieste waie to procure Peace , and to mainteine Vnitie in the Churche . And therefore Gregorie saithe of Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople , Gregori . Lib 4. that claimed to him selfe this Vniuersal Power , Epist. 34. 38. Si hanc causam aequanimiter portamus , Gregori . Lib. 4. totius Ecclesiae Fidem corrumpimus : Epist. 76. Corruit Vniuersa Ecclesia à statu suo , si is , qui Vniuersalis dicitur , cadit : If wee quietly suffer this mater thus to procede ( that one Man shal be called the Vniuersal Bishop , wée seeke not waies to mainteine Vnitie , but ) wee ouerthrowe the Faithe of the whole Churche : Yf be , that is called the Vniuersal Bishop , happen to falle , the whole Churche fallethe from her state . Thus therefore , to allowe any one Man Vniuersal Authoritie ouer the whole Churche , is a mater , not behoueful , and profitable , as M. Hardinge fansieth , but , as Gregorie saithe , doubteful , and dangerous to the Churche . For althoughe al the world either would , or could geue eare , and credite to one Man , yet were not that therefore alwaies Christian Vnitie . August . De Vera Relig ione Ca. 45 S. Augustine saithe , Habet & Superbia appetitum quendam Vnitatis , & Omnipotentiae : Pride it selfe hathe a certaine desire of Vnitie , and of Vniuersal Power .

An other of M. Hardinges Reasons is this : The Churche Labouringe here in Earthe must resemble the Churche of the Sainctes Triumphing in Heauen . But in Heauen God onely is the Gouernoure ouer the whole : Therefore , in the Churche beneathe , the Pope likewise muste needes be Gouernoure ouer the whole . Thus God muste be rated to Gouerne aboue , and the Pope beneath : & so , as one sometime saide , Diuisum Imperium cum loue Caesar habet .

This is a valiante kinde of Argument . It holdeth from Heauen to Earthe : from Angelles to Menne : from God to the Pope .

But how knoweth M. Hardinge , what Orders of Angelles , and Archangelles there be in Heauen ? what they doo : howe they deale : who ruleth : who are ruled : what Lawes , and Policies they haue emongste them ? They saie , thei would frame theire Churche accordinge to the Samplar : And yet good menne they neuer knewe , nor sawe the Samplar . But onely of them selues they imagine Common Weales , and Orders in Heauen : and accordinge to the same , they woulde shape , and fashon theire owne Churche in Earthe . The better waye , M. Hardinge , had benne , seeinge the whole mater hangeth onely vppon your fantasies , to saie , that God hathe appointed one Principal Archangel to be Pope in Heauen : and al other Powers , Angelles , & Dominions to be his Subiectes . Thus might ye easily haue made your frame to agree with your Paterne , and the one of your fansies to answeare the other .

For to saie , Iosua for Osee . as you saie , Churche Triumphante , & Militante . God ruleth al in Heauen aboue : Therefore the Pope must rule al in the worlde beneath , it is but a sclender kinde of reasoninge . S. Augustine saithe , Quid aliud in Pompa huius mundi homo appetit , nisi Solus esse , si fieri possit , cui multa subiecta sint : August . De V●ra Religione , Ca. 4● Peruersa , scil●●et , imitatione Omnipotentis Dei ? In the Vaine Pompe of this worlde what thinge els is 〈◊〉 ▪ that a man doothe desire , but , if it were possible , to make him selfe alone sutche a one , vnto whom many thinges maye be obedient : and that by a peeuishe countrefeitinge of God Omnipotente ?

And this is it , that Gregorie saithe of Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople : Illum , videlicet , imitatur , qui spreta Angelorum societate , ascendere conatus est ad culmen Singularitatis : Gregori . Lib. 4. He foloweth Lucifer , Epist. 78. who despisinge the felowship of the Angelles , laboured to geate vp to the toppe of Singularitie , and saide , I wil mounte vp aboue the Northe , and wil be like vnto the Highest .

Verily , Dionysius writinge purposely of the Policie , and Gouernmente of the Churche , & comparinge the same withe the Glorious Gouernmente of the Angels and powers in Heauen , yet neuer vttered one Woorde of the Vniuersal Gouernmente of the Pope . Nay rather in the late Councel of Constance , out of this very place is Fourmed an Argumente to the contrarie : In Coelesti Hierarchia tota Congregatio Angelorum non habet Caput Vnum , In Opere Triparti . Li. 2. Ca. ● praeter solum Deum : Ergo , à Simili , in Ecelesiastica Hierarchia Hominum non debet esse Vnum Caput , praeter Solum Deum : In the Heauenly Gouernemente the whole Companie of the Angels hathe none other One Heade , but onely God : Therefore of the like , in the Ecclesiastical Gouernmente emongste Menne , there ought not to be any One Heade , but onely God .

Neuerthelesse M. Hardinge is wel hable to fortifie al these thinges by the Authoritie of the Scriptures . And here in steede of the firste Chapter of the Prophete Osee , Josua for Osee . be allegeth the firste Chapter of the Booke of Iosua . And leste thou shouldest thinke , it were onely a marginal errour , brought in by somme ouersight of the Printer , as he vsethe sometimes to excuse , and to shifte the mater , he hathe thus laide it wide open in his owne texte , Hereof the Holy Captaine Iosue seemeth to speake . Howe be it , one errour maie the better be dissembled emongst so many .

In deede the Prophete Osee , and not the Holy Captaine Iosua , speaketh these woordes : but not , as M. Hardinge imagineth ▪ of the state of al Christendome vnder One Pope , but of that Vnitie , and Consente , that al the Faithful of the worlde , as wel Iewes , as Gentiles should haue vnder One Christe : as it is moste euident by the whole discourse of the texte .

Thus lie the Woordes : Osee Cap. ● The number of the Children of Israel shal be as the Sande of the Sea shoare , that cannot be numbred : And it shal comme to passe in the place , where it was saide vnto them , Ye are no people of mine , There shal it be saide vnto them , Ye are the Children of the Liuinge God . And the Children of Juda , and the Children of Israel shal assemble togeather , and shal appointe vnto them selues one Heade . Vppon whiche Woordes S. Hierome Writethe thus : Haec omnia fient , quia magnus est Dies Seminis Dei , Hierony . in Ose● Cap. 1. qui interpretatur Christus : Al these thinges shal comme to passe , bicause it is the greate daye of the Seede of God , whiche Seede is expounded ( not the Pope , but ) Christe .

Likewise Nicolas Lyra , Congregabuntur Filij Iuda , id est , Apostoli : & Filij Israel , id est , Nicol. Lyra in Osee Cap 1. Gentiles conuersi : Pariter , id est , in Vna Ecclesia : & ponent sibi Caput Vnum , id est , Christum : There shal assemble togeather the Children of Iuda , that is to saie , the Apostles : and the Children of Israel , that is to saie , the Heathens conuerted : Togeather , that is to saie , in One Churche : and shal appointe vnto them selues One Head , that is to saie , ( not one Pope , as M. Hardinge woulde haue it , but ) One Christe .

S. Augustine expoundinge the same wordes saithe thus : One Shepheard &c. Augu. De Ciuitate . Li. 18. Ca 28 Recolatur Lapis ille Angularis , & duo illi parietes , vnus ex Iudaeis , & alter ex Gentibus : Let vs remember that Corner Stone ( that is Christe , and not the Pope ) and the twoo Walles , the one of the Iewes , the other of the Heathens .

The other woordes , Iohan. 10. whiche M. Hardinge allegeth out of S. Iohn , Christe him selfe expoundeth , not of the Pope , but of him selfe : I am the good Shephearde : I yelde my life for my Sheepe : I knowe my Sheepe , and am knowen of them : I haue other Sheepe . that be not of this Flocke . Them muste I bringe , that they maye heare my Voice : and so shal there be one Shepheard , and one Flocke . These woordes Chrysostome expoundeth by the woordes of S. Paule : Ephes. 2 Chrysost. in Iohan Homil. 59. Vt duos conderet in Semetipso in Vnum nouum Hominem : That he might woorke twoo people into One newe Man ( not in the Pope , but ) in him selfe .

S. Augustine expoundinge the same saithe thus , Augu. in Iohan. Tract. 47. Duobus istis Gregibus , tamquam duobus Parietibus , Christus factus est Lapis Augularis : Vnto these twoo Flockes , as vnto twoo Walles ( not the Pope , but ) Christe was made the Corner Stone .

And what should I allege any other the Olde Fathers ? Nicolaus Lyra in Iohan. Ca. 10. Nicolas Lyra , as simple an Interpreter , as he was , yet he likewise saithe the same : Fiet Vnus Pastor , id est , Christus : There shal be One Shephearde , that is to saie , ( not the Pope , but ) ( Christe . ) Neither is M. Hardinge hable to shewe vs any Learned allowed Interpreter , Olde , or Newe , that hathe expounded this place otherwise .

Al these thinges notwithstandinge , as wel these woordes of Christe , as also the other of the Prophete Osee , M. Hardinge applieth onely to the Pope . The Pope muste be the Heade : The Pope muste be the Shephearde . Bothe Christe , and Osee Prophesied these thinges of the Glorie , and Kingdome of the Pope . Iuda and Israel shal chuse Christe to be theire Heade : Al the Faitheful through the worlde are one Flocke , and Christe is the Shephearde : Ergo , the Pope is the General Heade of the Vniuersal Churche of God .

Sutche Logique M. Hardinge is hable to teache vs : and with sutche feare , and reuerence can he vse Goddes Holy Woorde . S●e●on . Trāquil . in Caligula . And like as the Emperour Caligula sometimes tooke of the Heade of his greate God Iuppiter , and set on an other Head of his owne : Euen so by these Interpretations , and Gloses , M. Hardinge smiteth of Christe , the Onely Heade of the Churche , and setteth on the Pope . For Iohannes de Parisijs ( out of whom , or somme other the like , he hathe borowed this whole mater ) nothinge doubteth to telle vs , that Christe is not , nor cannot be the Heade of this Body , Iohan. De Parisi●s , de potestate Regia , & Papal● , Cap. 3. or the Shephearde of this Flocke . And , leste M. Hardinge should charge me with vntrue reporte , his woordes be these : Congregabuntur Filij Iuda , & Filij Israel , vt ponant sibi Caput Vnum : Et Iohan. 10. Fiet Vnum Ouile , & Vnus Pastor . Quod quidem de Christo intelligi non potest : sed de alio aliquo Ministro , qui praesit loco eius : The Children of Juda , and the Children of Isral shal assemble togeather , to appointe vnto them selues One Heade : And in the tenthe of Iohn , There shal be made One Folde , and One Shephearde : Whiche thinge doubtelesse cannot be expounded of Christe : but muste be taken of some other Minister , that maye rule in his steede .

Thus wée are taught , that Christe is neither the Heade of his owne Body , the Churche : nor the Shephearde of his owne Flocke , but onely the Pope . And yet Chrysostome saithe , Qui non vtitur Sacra Scriptura , sed ascendit aliunde , id est , non concessa via , Chrysost. in Iohan . Honal . 58. hic non Pastor est , sed Fur : Who so euer vseth not the Holy Scripture , but commeth 〈◊〉 an other waie that is not lawful , ( whiche is by False Gloses , and Corruptions ) he is not the Shephearde of the Flocke : he is the Theefe .

So saithe S. Augustine , Augusti . Contra Donatist . Lib. 6. 1. Q. 3. Vocantur Cane ● . Ipsum characterem multi & Lupi , & Lupis imprimunt : The note , or marke of a Bishop many geue vnto Wolues , and be Wolues them selues .

M. Hardinge saithe farther : For as mutche as Christe is Ascendedinto Heauen , and is nowe nomore conuersante emongst vs in Visible Forme , Feede my Sheepe . as he was before , it behooued some one man to be put in Commission for bearinge the charge , and takinge care of the whole Churche . Therefore he saide vnto Peter , Feede my Flocke : Confirme thy Brethren . Firste , what Ancient Learned Father euer thus scanned the woordes of the Popes Commission ? Or why dothe M. Hardinge auouche so greate a mater of him selfe onely , without farther Authoritie ? And if this so large Commission be to Feede , & to Feede so many , why then doothe the Pope Féede so litle ? Or rather , why Feedeth he nothinge at al ? Or howe can he claime by Féedinge , that neuer Feedeth ?

Againe , where learned M Hardinge to reason thus : Christe is Ascended into Heauen : Ergo , the Pope is Heade of the whole Worlde ? Or thus , Christe saide to Peter , Feede my Flocke : Ergo , the Pope hath Vniuersal Power ouer the whole Churche of God ? How can he make these Argumentes to holde , I wil not saie by Diuinitie , but by any reasonable shifte of Logique ?

But ye saie , God speaketh not nowe vnto vs mouthe to mouthe : nor sendeth vs downe his Angels from Heauen : nor instructeth vs nowe by Visions , as he did others in Olde times . What of that ? wil it therefore folowe , that al the worlde muste geue eare to the Pope ? Nay , M. Hardinge , Chrysostome saithe mutche better : Chrysost. In Genesin , Homil. 2. Bicause God speaketh not nowe vnto vs in sutche familiare sorte , Ergo , Suam erga Homines amicitiam innouare volens , quasi longè absentibus literas mittit , conciliaturus sibi Vniuersam hominum Naturam : Therefore God mindinge to renewe his fauour to wardes Man , sente ( his Holy Scriptures , as it were ) his Letters , thereby to reconcile to him selfe al Mankinde . God speaketh not nowe vnto vs by his Angels : but he hath already spoken vnto vs , Hebrae . 1. as S. Paule saithe , Cala. 1. by the mouthe , and presence of his Onely Sonne . And therefore he saithe againe , Yf an Angel from Heauen woulde nowe Preache vnto vs otherwise , then wee haue receiued , wée shoulde holde him accursed .

But for the Vnitie , and quiet gouernmente of the Churche of God , S. Paule saithe , Ephes. 4. Christe Ascendinge aboue al the Heauens , hathe geuen ( not One Vniuersal Pope to rule the whole , but ) some Apostles , some prophetes , some Euangelistes , some Pastours , some Doctours , for the perfitinge of the Sainctes , for the woorke of the Ministerie , for the buildinge vp of the Body of Christe , that wee maye al comme into the Vnitie of Faithe , and of the knowledge of the Sonne of God . By these meanes God thought it sufficient , to preserue his Churche in Vnitie , and neuer made mention of One Vniuersal Pope .

Therefore S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . De Simplicit . Praelatorum . Vnus est Episcopatus , cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur : There is but One Bishoprike , parte whereof of euery seueral Bishop is holden in whole . And againe , Ideò plures sunt in Ecclesia Sacerdotes , vt , vno Haeresim faciente , coeteri subueniant : Therefore are there many Bishoppes in the Churche , that if one fal into Heresie , Cyprian . Lib. 3. the reste maye healpe . Epist 13. Thus , when Peter walked not vprightly to the Gospel , Galat. 2. Paule came with healpe , Euseb. li. 5. ca. 26. and reproued him openly euen to his face : Augusti . Episto . 28. Thus Irenaeus reprooued Pope Victor : thus sundrie godly Fathers haue reprooued others . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Deus docuit Petrum per posteriorem Paulum . A quocunque enim Verum dicitur , illo donante , dicitur , qui est ipsa Veritas : Thus God instructed Peter by Paule his p●n●e , that was called after him . For by whom so euer the Truthe is spoken , it is spoken by his gifte , that is Truthe it selfe .

Ye saye , the Pope succedeth not Christe in al his Substance , that is to saie , in al his Power : In Concil. Lateran . sub Iulio . neither hath there any sutche fonde sayinge benne vttered ( saie you ) at any time by the Diuines . Yf this be true , wherefore then be these woordes written , and so wel allowed of in the Councel of Laterane , In Concil. Lateranen . sub Leone , In Oratione Stephani Patracensis . Tibi data est Omnis Potestas , in Coelo , & in Terra ? Vnto your Holinesse al Power is geuen , as wel in Heeuen , as in Earth . Wherefore is Bernarde so wel allowed to force the same farther with these woordes : Qui totum dedit , nihil excludit : He that hath geuen thee Al , hath excepted Nothinge . Wherefore is Panormitane allowed to saie , To Foresake the Pope . Papa potest omnia , quae Deus ipse potest ? The Pope is hable by his power to doo , what so euer God him selfe can doo .

For the reste , Panormitan . De Electio . Ca. Licet . M. Hardinge saithe , One Kinge is hable to rule One Kingedome : Ergo , One Pope is hable to rule the whole Churche . This Reason is very simple , and is answeared before . Of the gouernmente of Princes wée haue dayly Practise : But of Popes , that euer exercised this Vniuersal Dominion ouer the whole Churche of God , M. Hardinge is not hable to shewe vs one . Wel were it with him , if he were but a Member of Christes Body , and a Sheepe of his Flocke . S. Gregorie saide sometime to Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople , claiminge vnto him selfe the same Title , and thinkinge him selfe hable yenough to rule the whole , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. Quid tu Christo Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Capiti in Extremi Iudicij responsurus es examine , qui cuncta eius Membra tibimet conaris Vniuersalis appellatione supponere ? What answeare wilt thou make in the trial of the Laste Iudgemente , vnto Christe the Head of his Vniuersal Churche , that thus by the name of Vniuersal Pishop , seekest to bringe vnder thee al the Members of his Body ?

Laste of al , M. Harding concludeth without premisses : Who so euer wil not be ruled by this Shepheard , the Pope , is of the Hearde of Antichriste . So saithe one of the Popes hired Proctours : De Maiorlt . & Obedient , Vnam Sanct. In Gloss . Quicquid Saluatur , est sub Summo Pontifice : What so euer Soule is saued , it is vnder the Pope . This one thinge beinge graunted , M. Hardinges whole cause passeth cleare .

But , God be thanked , it appeareth already to al them , that haue eles to see , that wee haue not departed from the seruile Obedience of that See , but vpon iuste cause , and good aduise . And in sutche sorte the Pope him selfe wil not denie , but it is lawful for any Churche to dissente from the Churche of Rome . These he his woordes , Dist. 12. Non. decet . whiche muste be holden for a Lawe : Quicquid sine discretione Iustitiae contra Romanae Ecclesiae Disciplinam actum fuerit , ratum haberi nulla ratio permittit : What so euer thinge is donne without discretion of Iustice , againste the Order of the Churche of Rome , it maye not by any meanes be allowed . By whiche woordes it appeareth , Ex contrario Sensu , By an Argument of the contrarie , that , what so euer is donne by discretion of Iustice , notwithstandinge it be against the Order of the Churche of Rome , yet ought it to wel allowed .

S. Augustine saithe , August . De Vnitate Eccle. Catholica , Ca. 10. Ne Catholicis quidem Episcopis consentiendum est , sicubi fortè falluntur , vt contra Canonicas Scripturas aliquid sentiant : Wee maye not geue our consente vnto any Bishoppes , be they neuer so Catholique , if they happen to be deceiued , and to determine centrarie to the Scriptures .

And Pope Pius . Abbas Vrsper . Pag. 443. 2 him selfe saithe , Resistendum est quibuscunque in faciem , siue Paulus , siue Petrus sit , qui ad Veritatem non ambulat Euangelij : Wee are bounde to withstande any man to the face , be it Peter , be it Pause , yf be walke not to the Truthe of the Gospel .

To conclude , where the Woulfe is broken in , it is beste for the poore Sheepe , to breake out . That the Woulfe was broken in , beside the cruel spoile , and raueninge of Christian Bloude , it is plaine by the woordes of S. Bernarde . For thus he speaketh thereof in Open Councel , & in the presence of sundrie Bishoppes : Non custodiunt Gregem Domini , Bernardus in Concil. Remen . In eodem Concilio . Numer. 16. ses mactant , & deuorant : They keepe not the Lordes Flocke : but they kille it , and deuoure it . Againe he saithe , Propterea relinquamus istos , quia non sunt Pastores , sed Traditores : Therefore set vs leaue them : For they are not Postours , but Traitours . And therefore God thus warneth vs in the like case : Exite de medio horum hominum , ne cum illis pereatis : Goe foorthe from the middes of those Menne , leste perishe al togeather .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 3.

For al the Apostles , The other Apostles equal with Peter . as Cyprian saithe , were of like power emong them selues , and the rest were the same , that Peter was .

M. Hardinge .

Power is double , Peters Power Ordinarie . The Apostles power Extraordinarie . Peter is the Shepheard : The Apostles are the Sheepe . Manifest , and mere Vntruthes . the one Ordinary , the other by priuilege or Extraordinary . Ordinary Power is that whiche contineweth in one and the same course for euer . Accordinge to whiche Power Peter was Head of the Churche , and his Successours after him . Power by Priuilege , or Extraordinary is that whiche is geuen besides the common course by waie of dispensation . As where the other Apostles shoulde haue receiued Ordinarely theire Power from Peter , as who had commission ouer al , bothe Lambes and Sheepe , amonge whome the Apostles had theire place : Chrisie by special grace preuenteth ordinarie course , and maketh them for the time , and in their Persons equal with Peter in the office of Apostleship . Thus concerninge ordinarie Power , Peter is Head of the Apostles , and by that reason they are subiecte vnto him , as Sheepe vnto their Shepheard . But by Priuilege true it is , as S. Cyprian saithe , They were of like power amonge them selues . * * Peter hath Power to him , and to his Heires for euer : The Apostles haue Power onely for terme of Life . Nowe what oddes there is berwixt an Ordinarie auctoritie of iudginge geuen to any Officer , for him selfe , and his Successours in that Office for euer , and a special Commission for life time onely : so mutche is berwixte Peter and the reste of the Apostles .

The B. of Sarisburie .

S. Cyprians woordes be plaine : Hoc erant vtique & Coeteri Apostoli , quod fuit Petrus , Cyprian . De Simplicita . Praelatorum . pari consortio praediti & Honoris , & Potestatis , Sed exordium ab Vnitate proficiscitur , vt Ecclesia vna monstretur : The reste of the Apostles were the same , that Peter was , al endewed with one felowship bothe of Honour , and of Power . Yet the Beginninge is taken of One , to shewe , that the Churche is One . But al these woordes , ●e they neuer so plaine , are soone shifted by a Prety Distinction , sutche as neither S. Cyprian , nor any other Learned Father , or Doctour euer knewe .

Wée are taught here to vnderstande , that there are twoo Powers : The one Ordinarie , the other Ertraordinarie . By Ordinarie Power , saithe M. Harindge , that is the saie , by Order , and of Common Course , Peter appointed al the reste of the Apostles , and gaue them Authoritie . And Christe also likewise gaue them Authoritie , but by Extraordinarie Power , that is to sate , bistoes Order , and out of Course . Or , to vtter the mater in plainer wise , Peter gaue power to the Apostles by his Vsual Authoritie , and by dowe fourme of Lawe : But Christe gaue them Power , as M. Hardinge saithe , Onely for the time , and by waie of Dispensation , and bisides the Lawe . And thus Peter is the Ordinarie Heade of the Apostles : Christe is theire Head too , how be it , not in like sorte , but Extraordinarie . For , as touchinge Order of gouernmente , Peter is the Shephearde , and the Apostles are the Sheepe . Al other the Apostles holde theire Power , as by Copie , for terme of Life : Peter onely holdeth the same in Fée Simple , to him , and to his Heires for euer .

And , good Christian Reader , least thou shouldest thinke , I haue in scorne , and willfully wreasted M. Hardinges woordes , whiche otherwise might be vttered by him in some sober meaninge : maye it please thée by these fewe to consider , what certaine others of that side haue vttered , and published , touchinge the same .

Petrus de Palude saithe thus : Petrus de Palude De Potestae . Apostolor . Ar. 2. Petr. de Palade In eodem Arti. Dico ▪ quòd nullus Apostolorum , praeter Perrum , factus est à Christo Episcopus : I saie , that none of the Apostles , sauinge onely Peter , was made Bishop by Christe . And againe , Videretur , in Nouo Testamento , quòd alij Apostoli à Christo Nullam Potestatem Iurisdictionis receperunt : & per consequens relinguitur , quòd Omnis Potestas Iurisdictionis , quam habuerunt Apostoli , Specialiter post Christi Ascensum , fuit collata eis à Petro : It woulde appeare , that in the Newe Testament the reste of the Apostles receiued no manner Power of Jurisdiction at Christes handes : and so consequently it foloweth , that al the Power of Jurisdiction , that the Apostles had , specially after Christes Ascension , was geuen vnto them by Peter . Againe , he imagineth God the Father thus to saie vnto Christe : Petr. de Palude In eodem Cap. Petr. de Palude De Potestate Curator . Ar. 6. Constitues eos Principes , non per te , sed per tuum Vicarium : Thou shalte make the Apostles gouernours ouer al the Earth , not by thee selfe , but by Peter thy Vicare . And againe , Paulus , & alij Apostoli à Petro , non debuerunt praedicare in Ecclesia specialiter Petro commissa , nisi de eius licentia . Vnde à Christo habuerunt idoneitatem : à Petro autem Authoritatem : Paule , and the other Apostles mighte not Preache in the Churche committed vnto Pet●r , but with Peters Licence . For of Christe they had onely Habilitie : but of Peter they receiued Authoritie .

In like manner writeth Pope Nicolas , Extra . De Elect. & Electi potest . Fundamenta . Petrum in Consortium Indiuiduae Trinitatis assumptum , id , quod ipse erat , Dominus voluit nominari : Our Lorde tooke Peter into the Felowship of the Holy Trinitie , and would haue him called the same , that he was him selfe .

By sutche Amplifications , and outrage in speache , it woulde appeare , Christe were Peters Vicare : and not Peter Vicare vnto Christe . In this Sense , and meaninge M. Hardinge séemeth to saie , that by Ordinarie , and common Course of Lawe , the Apostles had al theire Power , not from Christe , but onely from Peter .

But here M. Hardinge vnwares falleth into a marueilous inconuenience . For , these thinges thus graunted , it muste néedes folowe , that duringe the time of Christes aboade in Earthe , the Apostles had no manner Ordinarie Power at al : neither to Preache , nor to Baptize , nor to Binde , nor to Loose . For Heruaeus a Doctour of M. Hardinges side saithe thus , Hernaeus , De Potestate Papae , Ca. 21. Sciendum , quòd , cùm Christus conuersabatur cum hominibus , non fuit alius Papa praeter ipsum : nec Petrus tunc habuit potestatem Papalem : Wee muste vnderstande , that while Christe was conuersante emongst menne in Earthe , there was none other Pope , but be alone : Neither then had Peter the Popes Authoritie .

So likewise saithe Petrus de Palude : Petr. de Palude De Potesta . A postolorwn . Non decebat esse simul , nisi Vnum Summum Pontificem . Vnde , Christo Ascensuro , debuit Petrus fieri Episcopus Summus , & non anteà : It was not meete there shoulde be more then one Highest Bishop at one time . Therefore , when Christe was ready to Ascende into Heaven , it was conuenient to make Peter the Highest Bishop , and not before .

For so longe time , Christe coulde not geue his Apostles any Ordinarie Authoritie : for M. Hardinge telleth vs , that his Power herein was Onely Ertraordinarie : Of the other side , Peter coulde geue them none : for as Heruaeus , and Paladensis saie , Vntil Christes Ascension he was not Pope .

But to leaue these vaine Fantasies , not woorth the hearinge , S. Paule wil soone remooue al these doubtes . Gala. 1. Thus he writeth of him selfe : Paule the Apostle , not of Menne , nor appointed by Menne , but by Jesus Christe , and God the Father . And S. Chrysostome hereof writeth thus , Chrysost in Epis. ad Galat. Ca. 2. Paulus nihil opus habebat Petro , nec illius egebat voce : sed Honore Par erat illi . Nihil enim hic dicam amplius : Paule had no manner lacke of Peter : nor stoode in neede of his voice , or allowance : but in Honour was his Felowe . For I wil here saie no more . His meaninge is , He was his better .

Howe be it , what néede woordes ? Set contention aparte : the case is cleare . For it was not Peter , that breathed ouer the Apostles : It was not Peter , that saide vnto them , Iohn . 20. Marke . 16. Goe to the loste Sheepe of the house of Israel : Receiue the Holy Ghoste : Goe into al the Worlde , and Preache the Gospel . Al this Power was geuen them by Christe alone , and not by Peter .

Nowe , where as M. Hardinge teacheth vs , that Peter was the Shephearde , and the Apostles the Sheepe , makinge them al as mutche inferiour vnto Peter , as the Shéepe is inferiour vnto the Shepheard , The other Apostles equal with Peter . S. Hierome saithe , Dices , Super Petrum fundatur Ecclesia : Licerid ipsum in alio loco super Omnes Apostolos fiat , & cuncti claues Regni Coelorum accipiant , & Ex Aequo super eos Ecclesiae fortitudo solidetur : Ye wil saye , The Churche is founded vpon Peter . Notwithstandinge in an other place the same thinge is donne vpon al the Apostles : and al receiue the keies of the Kingdome of Heauen : Hierony . Aduer . Ioui●tan . Li 1. Origen . in Matthae . Tracta. 1. and the strengthe of the Churche is founded Equally vpon them al. Likewise the Learned Father Origen saithe , Quòd si super vnum illum Petrum tantùm existimas aedisicari toram Ecclesiam , quid dicturus es de Iohanne Filio Tonitrui , & Apostolorum vnoquoque ? Yf thou thinke , the whole Churche was builded onely vpon Peter , what wilt thou then saie of Iohn the Sonne of the Thunder , and of euery of the Apostles ? Therefore S. Chrysostome of Peter saithe thus : Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 83. Duplex crimen erat : ium quia repugnauit , tum quia coeteris seipsum praeposuit : Peter was in double faulte : bothe for that he withstoode Christe , and also for that he set him selfe before the reste . S. Augustine maketh Peter Felowe , and Equal with the other Apostles : Inter se concorditer vixerunt Petrus , August . Epist. 86 & Condiscipuli eius : Peter and his Felowes liued agreeably togeather . And againe , Christus sine personarum acceptione hoc dedit Paulo , vt Ministraret Gentibus , quod etiam Petro dederat , August . in Epist. Ad Galat. Ca. 2. vt Ministraret Iudaeis : Christe without any choise of Personnes , gaue the same ( Authoritie ) to Paule , to Minister emongst the Heathens , that he gaue to Peter , to Minister emongst the Iewes . And the very Ordinarie Glose geoeth these woordes to S. Paule : Non didici ab . alijs , tanquam à Maioribus : sed contuli cum illis , tanquam cum amicis , Gloss . Galat. 2. & Paribus : I learned not of ( Peter , and ) others , as of my betters : but I had conference with them , as with my Equalles , and Frendes . Likewise Paule him selfe saithe , Iacobus , Petrus , Iohannes , qui videbantur Columnae esse , dextras dederunt mihi , Gala. 2. & Barnabae Societatis : James , Peter , and John , that seemed to be the Pillers , gaue vnto me , and Barnabas the righte handes of Felowship : Whiche the Glose expoundeth thus , Societatis , id est , Aequalitatis : Of Felowship , that is to saye , of Equalitie .

Therefore , notwithstandinge M. Hardinges Ordinarie , and Extraordinarie Distinctions , S. Cyprians woordes are plaine , and true , The reste of the Apostles were euen the same ( in Authoritie ) that Peter was , al end●wed with One Felowship , bothe of Honoure , and of Power .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 4.

And that it was saide indifferently to them al , Feede ye : indifferently to them al , Goe into the whole worlde : indifferently to them al , Teache ye the Gospel .

M. Hardinge .

Wee denie , that it was saide indifferently to them al , Feede ye . Yea , or that it was saide at al , Feede ye . * * Vntruthe most vaine , and manifest . To Peter and none els was it saide , Feede my Lambes , Feede my Sheepe . Iohn . 21. Whiche Woorde of Feedinge so singularly spoken to Peter in the presence of the other Apostles , prooueth , that it was not indifferently saide to al , Feede ye . That they were sente into the whole Worlde , and that they were commaunded to teache , Marke . 16. and in that respect also to Feede , wee confesse vnder the distinction of Ordinarie and Extraordinarie Power before mentioned .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It forceth not greately , what M. Hardinge denie , or graunte , hauinge neither Reason , nor Authoritie , but onely his owne . But if Power were not geuen indifferently to al the Apostles , tel vs then , wherein is the oddes ? What had Peter more ? What had the others lesse ? Or what Olde Doctour , or Learned Father euer sawe this Difference ?

Christe saide equally vnto them al , Rece●●● the Holy Ghoste : Whose Sinnes yee forge●ue , they are forgeeuen : Goe into the whole Worlde : Preache the Gospel to euery Creature . These woordes perteine equally vnto al. Peter had nomore the Holy Ghost , nomore Power to forgéeue Sinnes , nomore Commission to goe into the whole Worlde , nomore Authoritie to Preache the Gospel , then others had .

M. Hardinge saithe , To the reste of the Apostles it was not saide at al , Feede ye . Iohn . 21. Marc. 13. To Peter , and to none els , was it saide , Feede my Lambes : Feede my Sheepe . Yet Christe him selfe saithe , Quod Vni dico , Omnibus dico : That I saie to One , I saie to Al. Hierony . contra Jouinian . Li. 1. 1. Cor. 3. And S. Hierome saithe , as it is before alleged , Al the Apostles receiued the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen : and the strength of the Churche was builte Equally vpon them al. S. Paule saithe : What is Peter , what is Paule , but the Ministers of Christe , through whome ye haue beleeued ? Paule hath planted : Apollo hath watered . He that planteth , Chryso . in Epist. Ad Gala. Ca. 1. is nothinge : He that watreth , is nothinge . Chrysostome saithe : Angeli , quamliber magni , tamen Serui sunt , ac Ministri : The Angels of God , be they neuer so greate , yet are they but Seruantes , and Ministers . Therefore , to conclude , he saithe : Ne Paulo quidem obedire Oportet , Chrysosto . in Epist. Ad Timoth. 2. Homi. 2. si quid proprium dixerit , si quid humanum : sed Apostolo Christum in se loquentem circumferenti : Wee maye not beleeue Paule him selfe , if he speake any thinge of his owne , or of worldly reason : but wee muste beleeue the Apostle bearinge aboute Christe speakinge within him .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 5.

And , Ad Euagrium . as Hierome saithe , Al Bishoppes where so euer they be , be they at Rome , be they at Eugubium , be they at Constantinople , be they at Rhegium , be al of like Preeminence , and of like Priesthood . And , De Simpl. Pelator . as Cyprian saithe , There is but one Bishop●ike , and a peece thereof is perfitely and wholy holden of euery particular Bishop .

M. Hardinge .

The Interpreter , not without the wil and aduise of this Defender , hath altered the Sense of the Latine , Vntruthe : Reade the Answeare . as the Authour of the Latine hath altered the woordes of S. Hierome . For neither speaketh S. Hierome of Bishoppes in the plural number , neither saithe the Latine Apologie , that the Bishoppes be al of like Preeminence , whiche this Translation hath , but of the same Merite , and of the same Priesthood . With the woorde Preeminence guilefully shifted into the sentence in place of this woorde Merite , these false players thought to winne the Game . That is , that al Bishoppes , after the minde of S. Hierome be of like Preeminence , and so that al be of like Power , and auctoritie ▪ and none aboue other .

Concerninge the place alleged , Hieromes place discussed . S. Hierome in an Epistle to Euagrius speakinge against that , a particular custome of the Churche of Rome shoulde Preiudicate the Auctoritie of the whole worlde , in preferringe Deacons before Priestes , compareth Bishoppes of great Cities and litle Townes togeather , and saithe , that as touchinge the Honour , Dignitie , and Power of Bishoply Order and Office . and of Priesthood , as good and as greate a Bishop in that respect is the One , as the other : and that the Bishop of Eugubium , and Rhegium , two litle Townes in Italie , and of Thebes an other litle Towne in Egypte , are Bishoppes and Priestes , and haue as greate * * This was no parte of the question . Merite in regarde of any their Vertues , and as greate Power concerninge the order of Priesthood , as the Bishoppes of Rome , of Constantinople , of Alexandria . Yet as touchinge Power and Auctoritie of regiment , the Patriarkes of Constantinople , Alexandria , and Antiochia be aboue Bishoppes of other Dioceses , and the Bishop of Rome Peters Successour is * * Vntruth : For the B. of Rome is equal with the other foure Patriarkes , as shal appeare . aboue al. For we beinge many are one Body in Christe , and euery man amonge our selues one an others members . This knotte requireth a mutual consent of the whole Bod●e , but chiefly the concorde of Priestes : Epist. 84. Amonge Bishoppes is difference of Power with likenesse of Honour . amonge whome although dignitie be not common to them al , yet order is general , as Leo writeth . For euen among the moste Blessed Apostles ( saithe he ) in likenesse of Honour there was oddes of Power . And whereas the Election of them al was equal , yet to One was it geuen to be ouer the reste . Out of whiche platte rose the distinction also of Bishoppes , and with greate Prouidence it hath benne disposed , Equalitie of Bishoppes . that al shoulde not take al vpon them , but that in euery prouince there shoulde be one , who might firste geue his sentence amonge his brethren : and againe that in the greate Citties some shoulde be ordeined for takinge vpon them matters of greater care , through whome the charge of the vniuersal Churche shoulde haue course to the one see of Peter , and that nothinge shoulde euer dissent from the Head .

Howe greate , and Honorable so euer the roume is , that any Bishop is placed in , be he Archbishop , Metropolitane , Primat , Patriarke , or Pope himselfe : He is nomore a Bishop , then any other of those , who occupie the lowest roume . The diuersitie bitweene Bishops , wherein it consisteth . The diuersitie consisteth in this , that they are called to parte of charge in sundry proportions , as the Bishoprikes are greater or lesser : the Pope hath committed vnto him a a Vntruth : For Christe neuer gaue the Pope any sutche charge . the charge of the whole Folde of Christe , and hath the fulnes of Power . For if al were of like Power , as these Defenders teache , Vnitie coulde not be mainteined . Wherefore b b Vntruth : For Christe neuer gaue sutche order . by very order of Christe himselfe it hath benne ordeined , that maters touchinge Faith and Religion ; at least sutche as be weighty , be referred to that one Prince of Pastours , who sitteth in the chaire of Peter , the Highest Bishop , whiche hath c c Vntruth : For it hath not alwaies benne obserued . alwaies benne done and obserued from the Apostles time to our daies by Catholikes , and not seldom also by Heretikes .

The sentence that this Defender alleageth out of S. Cyprian , it seemeth he vnderstoode it not . Ye saie , that a piece of that one Bishoprike is perfitly and wholy holden of euery particular Bishop . But what meane ye by that ? If by this woorde , In solidum , perfitly and wholy holden , ye meane , that euery particular Bishop without is a Bishop dependinge of any other , then ye speake against the woordes yee bringe out of S. Cyprian . De Simplicitate Praelatorum . Who saithe , that as there are many beames of one Sunne , many boughes of one roote ▪ many Riuers of one Fountaine : so there are many Bishoppes of one Bishoprike . Therefore this Bishoprike is vnto particular Bishoppes , as the Sunne , as the Roote , as the Fountaine . d d Vatruth , impudente aboue measure . What the Fountaine , roote , and Sunne of this Bishoprike is , S. Cyprian declareth a litle before , she winge that it was saide to Peter , To thee I wil geue the ketes of the Kingdome of Heauen . And , Feede my sheepe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here M. Hardinge chargeth vs with twoo of his owne common faultes : First with Corruption : nexte with Ignorance . With Corruption , in the woordes , and sense of S. Hierome : with Ignorance , in the place of S. Cyprian . But if wee be hable sufficiently , and truely to answeare bothe , I truste , M. Hardinge shal haue no great cause , mutche to vaunte him selfe , either of his plaine dealinge herein , or of his knowledge .

And here , to dissemble these childishe causilati●ns of the altering of Numbers , the Singulare into the Plural : and of the changinge of this woorde , Merite , into this woorde , Preeminence : whiche greate faulte , if it were any , by M. Hardinges owne Confession , proceeded onely from the Interpreter , and not from the Authour : I saie , to dissemble , and to passe by al these séely quarrels , what S. Hierome meante hereby , Erasmus a man of great Learninge , and iudgement , expoundeth thus : ●rasm , in Schol. in Epist. ad Euagrium . Hieronymus aequare videtur omnes Episcopos inter se , perinde quasi omnes ex aequo Apostolis successerint . Nec putat vllum Episcopum alio minorem esse , quód sit humilior : aut Maiorem , quód sit Opulentior : Nam aequat Eugubiensem Episcopum cum Romano , Deinde non putat , Episcopum quouis Presbytero praestantiorem esse , nisi quód ius habeat Ordinandi : Hierome seemeth to matche al Bishoppes togeather , as if they were al equally the Apostles Successours . And he thinketh not any Bishop to be sesse then other , for that he is poorer : or greatter then other , for that he is richer . For he maketh the Bishop of Eugubium ( a poore towne ) equal with the Bishop of Rome . And farther he thinketh , that a Bishop is no better then any Prieste , sauinge that the Bishop hath Authoritie to Order Ministers .

But S. Hieromes woordes are plaine of them selfe , and haue no neede of other Expositour . Hierony . ad Euagrium . Thus he writeth : Quid facit , excepta Ordinatione , Episcopus , quod Presbyter non faciat ? Nec altera Romanae Vibis Ecclesia , altera totius Orbis existimanda est . Et Galliae , & Britannia , & Aphrica , & Persis , & Oriens , & India , & Omnes Barbarae Nationes Vnum Christum adorant : vnam obseruant regulam Veritatis . Si Authoritas quaeritur , Orbis maior est Vrbe . Vbicunque fuerit Episcopus , siue Eugubij , siue Constantinopoli , siue Alexendriae , siue Tanai , eiusdem Meriti , eiusdem est Sacerdotij . Potentia diuitiarum , & paupertatis humilitas vel sublimiorem , vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit . Coeterùm omnes Apostolorum Successores sunt . Quid mihi profers Vnius Vrbis consuetudinem ? What doothe a Bishop , sau●nge onely the Orderinge of Ministers , but a Prieste maye doo the same ? Neither maye wee thinke that the Churche of Rome is one , and the Churche of al the worlde biside is another . Fraunce , Englande , Aphrica , Persia , Leu●nte , India , and al the Barbarous Nations woorship one Christe , and keepe one rule of the Truthe . If wee seeke for Authoritie , The whole worlde is greater then the Cittie of Rome . Where so euer there be a Bishop , be it at Eugubium , be it at Rome , be it at Constantinople , be it at Rhegium , be it at Alexandria , be it at Tanais , they are al of one woorthinesse , they are al of one Bishoprike . The Power of the Richesse , and the basenesse of Pouertie , maketh not a Bishop either Higher , or Lower . For they are al the Apostles Successours . What bringe you me the Custome of Rome , beinge but one Cittie ?

Nowe , if M. Hardinge wil steale awaie in the darke , as his manner is , and saie , that S. Hierome spake onely of the Merite of Life , or of the Office of Priesthoode , sette some man telle him , that this was no parte , neither of the question mooued , nor of the answeare of S. Hierome : And S. Hierome in plaine , and expresse woordes saithe , Si Authoritas quaeritur , If wee seeke ( not for Merite of Life , but ) for Authoritie in gouernmente , therein the whole worlde is greatte , then the Cittie of Rome . M. Hardinge imagineth , S. Hierome spake onely of , I knowe no what : but S. Hierome him selfe saithe , he speaketh namely of Authoritie .

And whereas M. Hardinge is so highly offended with the chaunginge of this woorde , Merite , into this woorde , Preeminence , and saithe farther , that these False Platers thought thereby to winne the game , it maye please him to remember , that , howe so euer the game goe , S. Hierome him selfe plainely plaide the selfe same game : I meane , that S. Hierome vsinge this woorde , Merite , without question meante , Preeminence . For thus he saithe , Potentia Diuitiarum , & Paupertatis humilitas , vel Sublimiorem , vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit : The Power of Richesse , and the basenesse of Pouertie maketh not a Bishop either Higher , or Lower . M. Hardinge mighte easily hauè seene , that Higher , and Lower , perteine not to Merite of Life , but to Preeminence . Therefore lette him looke better vpon his Booke , before he thus lightly condemne others for corruption .

I graunt , it is true , as M. Hardinge saithe , This quarrel first beganne aboute a particulare Custome of the Churche of Rome , where as the Dra●ons Vaunted them selues , and would be placed aboue the Priestes . But here M. Hardinge , as his manner is , willingly dissembleth , and suppresseth somewhat . S. Augustine more liuely , August . in quaes . veter . & Noui Testament . quae. 101. and fully expresseth the same . For thereof he writeth thus : Quidam , qui nomen liabet Falcidij , Duce stultitia , & Romanae Ciuitatis Iactantia , Leuîtas Sacerdotibus , & Diaconos Presbyteris coaequare contendit : One Falcidius , Foolishnesse , and the Pride of the Cittie of Rome leadinge him thereto , laboureth to make the Deacons Equal with the Priestes .

This lewde disorder S. Hierome controlleth by the Examples of other Churches , and saithe , that therein the Authoritie of the whole worlde is greatter , then the Authoritie of the Churche of Rome : Of whiche also he seemeth to speake scornefully , and with some disdeigne . For thus he saithe , Quid mihi profers Vnius Vrbis Consuerudinem ? What bringe you me the Custome of ( Rome , beinge but ) One Cittie ? By whiche woordes it seemeth , Pope Leo. he made smal accoumpte of the Cittie of Rome .

But M. Hardinge saithe , The Primates had Authoritie ouer other Inferiour Bishops I graunte : they had so . How be it , thei had it by agreemente , & Custome : But neither by Christe , nor by Peter or Paule , nor by any Kighte of Goddes Woorde . Hieronym . in Epist. ad Titum . Cap. 1. S. Hierome saith , Nouerint Episcopi , se magis Consuetudine , quàm Dispofitionis Dominicae Veritate , Presbyteris esse Maiotes , & in commune debere Ecclesiam ●egere : Let Bishoppes vnderstande , that they are aboue the Priestes , rather of Custome , the● of any Truthe , or Right of Christes Institution : and that they ought to rule the Churche al togeather . And againe , Idem ergo est Presbyter , Hieronym . eod. loco . qui Episcopus : Etantequam Diaboli instinctustudia in Religione fierent , & diceretur in populis , Ego sum Pauli , Ego Apollo , Ego Cephae , Communi Presbyterorum Consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur : , Therefore a Prieste , and a Bishop are bothe one thinge : And , before that by the inflaiminge of the Diuel , partes were taken in Religion , and these woordes were vttered emonge the people , I holde of Paule , I holde of Apollo , I holde of Peter , the Churches were gouerned by the Common Aduise of the Priestes . August . Epist. 19. S. Augustine saithe , Secundum honorum vocabula , quae iam Ecclesiae vsus obtinuit , Episcopatus Presbyterio maior est : The office of a Bishop is aboue the office of a Prieste , ( not by Authoritie of the Scriptuces , but ) after the Names of Honour , whiche the Custome of the Churche hath nowe obteined .

As for Pope Leo , ff. Li. 2. De Iurisdict . omnium Iudicum . his owne Authoritie in his owne cause cannot be greate . The Emperoure saithe , Nemo debet sibiius dicere : Noman maie minister Lowe vnto him selfe . And it is noted thus in the Decrées , Papa non debet esse Iudex in causa propria : The Pope maie not be iudge in his owne cause .

It is wel knowen , 16. q. 6. Consuetudo : In Mar●gine . that the Pope hath sought for , and claimed this Vniuersal Authoritie these many hundred yeeres . Pope Innocentius was therefore reprooued of Pride , and worldly Lordlinesse by the whole Councel of Aphrica : Concil. Aphrica . Ca. 105. Superbum saeculi typhum . Inter Decretaé Bonifacij 2. Pope Bonifacius 2. condemned ● . Augustine , & al the saide whole Councel of Aphrica , & called them al Heretiques , and Schismatiques , for the same , and said , they were al * * Instigante Diabolo . Leo Epist. 89. leadde by the Diuel : Pope Zosimus , to mainteine this claime , corrupted the Holy Councel of Nice : S. Hilarie , and other Learned Bishoppes of France , for vsurpinge sutche vnlawful Authoritie , charged this same Pape Leo , of whom we speake , with Pride , and Ambition .

But , gentle Reader , that thou ma●ste the better vnderstande , what credite thou oughtest to geue to this Pope Leo , specially settinge foorthe his owne Authoritie , I beséethe thée , consider , with what Maiestie of woordes , and howe far aboue measure , he auanceth the Authoritie of S. Peter . These be his woordes : Christus Petrum in Consortium Indiuiduae Vnitatis assumpsit : Christe receiued Peter into the Companie of the Indiuisible Vnitie : Leo Epist. 89. Leo Epist. 52. Leo Epist. 89. Leo in cadem Epist. Authoritate Domini mei Petri Apostoli : By the Authoritie ( not of Christe , but ) of my Lorde Peter the Apostle : Deo Inspirante , & Beatissimo Petro Apostolo : By the Inspiration of God , and of S. Peter the Apostle : Deus à Petro , velut à quodam Capite , dona sua velut in Corpus omne diffudit : God from Peter , as from the Heade , Leo in Sermo . De Natali Petri & Pauli . hath powred cut his giftes into al the Body : Nihil erit ligatum , aut solutum , nisi quod Petrus ligauerit , aut soluerit : There shal be nothinge bounde , or loosed , but that Peter shal binde , or loose : Nunc quoque Petrus pascit Oues , & mandatum Domini Pius Pastor exequitur : Leo in Sermo . 3. In Anniucrsario die Assumptionis . Euen nowe Peter feedeth the Sheepe , and as a Godly Shephearde , he fulfilleth the commoundement of his Maister . Sutche immoderate , and ambitious Dignitie Leo was contente to yeelde to Peter , to th ende that the possession , and fruite thereof might redounde whelely vnto him selfe .

Some others haue thought , that as wel these Epistles of Leo , as also others moe , Equalitie of Bishoppes . of other the Ancient Bishoppes of Rome , haue benne interlaced , and falsified by the ambitious Popes , that folowed afterwarde . Whiche thinge is the more likely , Epist. Iulij 1. Extra De Elect. Fundamenta . Concil Aphrica . Cap. 105. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 36. bothe for that the selfe same woordes be likewise alleged , partely vnder the name of Pope Iulius , partely vnder the name of Pope Nicolas : and also for that Pope Zosimus , whiche was the fifthe before Leo , as it is saide before , doubted not for an aduantage to falsifie the Holy Councel of Nice .

Verily , when the Councel of Chalcedon had offered vnto this same Leo the Title of Vniversal Bishop , as Gregorie witnesseth , he vtterly refused it , and woulde none of it .

Nowe touchinge that S. Hierome saithe , the poore Bishop of Eugubium , and the Bishop of Rome are bothe of one Authoritie ( For of Authoritie he speaketh , Cyprian . Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Nisi paucis desperatis , & perditis . as it is prooued before ) : S. Cyrian also saithe the same , that the Authoritie of the Bishoppes in Aphrica is as good , as the Authoritie of the Bishop of Rome : and calleth them al Lewd , and Desperate Personnes , that wil , as M. Hardinge doothe , safe the contrarie .

Therefore , whereas M. Hardinge saithe , By very Order of Christe him selfe it hath benne Ordeined , that maters touchinge Faithe , and Religion be referred to that One Prince of Pastours , who sitteth in the Chaire of Peter , the Highest Bishop , and that the same hath alwaies benne donne , and obserued from the Apostles time vntil our daies : He bringeth vs twoo manifest Vntruthes togeather , without any manner proufe at al , onely auouched vpon him selfe . For it appeareth not , that Christe euer tooke this Order , or euer made any sutche mention , either of any sutche Prince of Pastours , or of Peters Chaire . And in the Councel of Aphrica it was decreed , that no maters shoulde be remooued from thence to Rome . Concil. Aphrican . Cap. 92. The woordes of the Councel are these , Ad transmarina Iudicia qui pu●auerit appellandum , à nullo intra Aphricam in Communionem suscipiatur : Who so euer shal thinke be ought to appeale to the Judgementes beyond the Seas ( that is , to the Bishop of Rome ) let no man within Aphrica receiue him to the Communion .

Touchinge that M. Hardinge calleth the Pope the Prince of Pastours , he mighte haue remembred , that the righte of this name belongeth onely vnto Christe . 1. Petr. 5. S. Peter saithe , That when Christe , the Prince of Pastours shal appeare , ye maie receiue the Vncorruptible Crowne . Nowe , to infea●fe the P●pe with Christes peculiare Titles , a man mighte thinke it were greate blasphemie . Certainely S. Cyprian saithe , In Concil. Carthaginen . Concil. Constantinop . 2. Ca. 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyprian . De Simpl. Praelator . Nemo nostrum Episcopum se esse Episcoporum constituit : None of vs appointeth him selfe Bishop of Bishoppes : mutche lesse the Prince of al Pastours . And in the Councel of Constantinople it was Decreed , that the Bishop there shoulde haue Euen , and Equal Authoritie with the Bishop of Rome .

As for the other Authoritie of S. Cyprian , M. Hardinge saithe , wée vnderstoode it not : and therefore he willeth vs , to looke better vpon our Bookes . The counsel is good . But if M. Hardinge wil graunte , that S. Cyprian him selfe knew , what he him selfe wrote , and vnderstoode his owne meaninge , it shal be sufficient . Verily the woordes that he vseth , séeme not so darke . For thus he writeth : Episcopatus Vnus est , cuius à singulis in solidum pars tenetur : Ecclesia Vna est , quae in multiudinem lati●s incremento Foecunditatis ex●enditur : Quomodò Solis multi radij , sed lumen Vnum : & ramiarboris multi , sed robur Vnum : The Bishoprike is One , a parte whereof of euery seueral Bishop is possessed in whole . The Churche is One , whiche by her greate increase is extended vnto many : As in the Sonne the beames be many , but the lighte is one : and in a Tree the boughes be many , but the body is One.

If there appeare any greate darkenesse , or doubte in these woordes , S. Cyprian him self in other places thus expoundeth his owne meaning in plainer wise : Vna est Ecclesia à Christo per totum Mundum in plura membra diuisa : One Bishoprike . Item Episcopatus Vnus , Cyprian . Lib. 4. Epist. 2. Episcoporum multorum concordi numerositate diffusus : There is One Churche diuided by Christe into many Members throughout the worlde : Likewise One Bishoprike powred farre abroade by the agreeable multitude of many Bishoppes , Againe , Ecclesia Vna est , Cyprian . Lib. 4. Epist. 9. & connexa , & cohaerentium sibi inuicem Sacerdotum glutino copulata : There is One Churche , ioined , and fastened in One , by the consente of Bishoppes agreei●ge togeather . Againe , Quando Oramus , non pro Vno Oramus , sed pro toto populo : Cyprian . In Oration . Dominicam . Quia totus populus Vnum sumus : When wee praie , we praie not for One , but for the whole people : For wee the whole people are but One. Againe , immediately before these woordes , whiche , M. Hardinge saithe , wée are not hable to vnderstande , he saithe : Hanc Vnitatem firmiter tenere , Cyprian . De Simpli . Praelat . & vendicare debemus , maximé Episcopi , qui in Ecclesia prae●idemus : vt Episcopatum quoque ipsum Vnum , & Indiuisum probemus : This Vnitie muste wee holde , specially Bishoppes , that fitte as Rulers in the Churche : that wee maye declare our Bishoprike to be One , Cyprian . Lib. 3. Epist. 13. and without diuision . Againe , Etsi Pastores multi sumus , Vnum tamen Gregem Pascimus : & Oues Vniuersas , quas Christus Sangume suo , & Passione quaesiuit , colligere , & fouere debemus : Notwithstandinge wee be many Shepheardes , yet wee Feede but One Flocke : and wee are al bounde to geather vp , and to nourrishe al the Sheepe , that Christe hath wonne with his Bloude , and Passion .

If either the Authour of the Apologie , or the Interpreter vnderstoode not S. Cyprian , yet , M. Hardinge , ye maye geue S. Cyprian leaue , to vnderstande him selfe .

And in this sense S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . in Epist. ad Tit. Ca. 1. Communi Presbyterorum Consilio Ecclesiae gubernabantur : The Churches were ordred ( not by the Vniuersal Authoritie of the Bishop of Rome , but ) by the Common Aduise of the Priestes . Likewise S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . Lib. 3. Epist. 13. Ideircò copiosum est Corpus Sacerdotum , Concordiae mutuae glutine , atque Vniratis vinculo copulatum , vt si quis ex Collegio nostro Haeresim facere , & Gregem Christi laccrare , ac vastare tentauerit , subueniant coeteri : Therefore is the Body , or companie of Priestes so copious , ioined togeather with consente of Concorde and Vnitie , that if any one of our Companie entreprise to raise an Heresie , and to scatter and waste the Flocke of Christe , Basili . ad Neocaesarienses . the reste shoulde healpe . So likewise S. Basile : Interrogate Patres Vestros , & renuntiabunt vobis , quòd etiamsi loci situ diuisae inter se sint Paroeciae , tamen veluti Coronamento quodam Vnitae , vnaque sententia gubernatae fuerunt . Assidua quidem populi fuit inter se commixtio : Ipsi verò Pastores tanta praediti fuerunt mutua inter ipsos Charitate , vt alius alio Praeceptore , ac Duce vsi fuerint : Aske of your Fathers , and they wil telle you , that although Bishoprikes be diuided , and sundred by distance of place , yet were they euer knitte togeather as with a Garlande , and euer ruled by One Aduise . In deede the People was euer mingled togeather : But the Bishoppes were al so ioined in Charitie , that euery of them was contente to be taught , and to be leadde by other .

Therefore , as many Faithes in sundrie Faithefulles are but One Faithe : as many Churches are but one Churche : as many Baptismes are but one Baptisme : Euen so , saithe S. Cyprian , many Bishoprikes are but One Bishoprike : and therein , as wel the Bishop of Rome , as also euery other seucral Bishop , hath his portion .

I saie , The Bishoprike of Rome is not this Whole Bishoprike , but a Parte : Not the Body of the Sunne , but a beame : Not the stemme of the Trée , but a braunche .

And thus , by S. Cyprians minde , neither doothe one Bishop holde of an other : Nor is any One Bishop Heade of the Whole : Nor is One Bishop al in al : but al Bishoppes are onely One .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 6.

And accordinge to the iudgement of the Nicene Councel , wee saie , that the Bishop of Rome hath no more iurisdiction ouer the Churche of God , then the reste of the Patriarkes , either of Alexandria , or of Antioche haue .

M. Hardinge .

If it be a shame to belie the Deuil , accordinge to the olde Prouerbe , what is it to belie the Churche of God represented in the Nicene Councel ?

The sixth Canon amonge al others of the Nicene Councel is that you grounde your surmise vpon , The sixth Canon of the Nicene Councel declared to make againste the Defenders , I knowe wel . For that hath benne wreasted to your purpose by certaine of your side . And the same rightly construed A A Vntruth : For the expresse wordes are plaine to the contrarie . maketh moste againste you . For it seemeth to acknowledge the Bishoppe of Rome his Supremacie and Soueraigntie of iudgement ouer other Patriarkes . These be the woordes of the Canon rightly Englished hed . Let the Auncient custome continewe in force whiche is in Egypte , Lybia ▪ and Pentapoli : so that the Bishop of Alexandria haue Power ouer them al. Quandoquidem etiam Episcopo Romano hoc consuetum est . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For asmuch as the B. of Rome hath thus vsed . Likewise in Antiochia also , and in other Prouinces let the Churches keepe theire Prerogatiue . What can be gathered of the woordes of this Canon , but that for ratefiynge the iurisdiction of the Patriarkes of Alexandria , and Antiochia , the Fathers of the Nicene Councel thought good to alter nothinge : but to folowe the Auncient custome of Olde time vsed and allowed by the B. of Rome ? For it is asmuche to saie , as this : In asmuche as b b Vntruth Vaine and childishe . the B. of Rome hath benne wonte from the beginninge to graunt to the B. of Alexandria iurisdiction ouer Egypte , Lybia , and Pentapoli : the c c This Exposition is like a sick● mannes dreame . Nicene Councel folowinge his authoritie and rule , or at the least his vsage , willeth and graunteth , that the saide Bishop retaine and keepe his auncient right . For if the B. of Alexandria had not receiued sutche iurisdiction by Auctoritie and graunt of the B. of Rome of olde time , what reason shoulde haue moued those Fathers , for confirmation thereof to alleage the custome of the B. of Rome ? And in that case , D D O folie . The wordes are plaine : Quia Episcopo Romano parilis mos est . whereto perteined the addition of the cause , Quia Episcopus Romanus hoc consueuit , bicause this was the Bishop of Rome his custome ? If this had not benne theire meaninge , they would neuer so haue spoken . For what was his custome other , E E Vntruthe : For the B. of Rome neuer had Power , to allotte Prouinces : but him selfe had his prouince allotted him , as wel , as others . A Ne Recipiatur . then to allotte those Prouinces to the B. of Alexandria ? If any other thinge be alleaged to haue benne his maner and custome , besides that the woordes of the Canon beare it not , what had that benne to the purpose , what so euer it be , for cause and confirmation of the B. of Alexandria his iurisdiction ouer Egypte , Lybia , and Pentapoli ? Alleage you , Defender , for olde custome of the B. of Rome , what elles you liste , so that you make no violence to the Canon , and thereupon make your argument , inferringe of your allegation the Conclusion , ( Ergo , the B. of Alexandria ought to haue iurisdiction ouer Egypte , Lybia , and Pentapoli ) : and you shal finde it to be suche an argument , as any Sotte woulde be ashamed to make .

Against this if it shal like you to Replie , wee warne you before , that neither ye take aduantage of a doubteful interpretation , as we knowe that Canon to be founde in diuerse Bookes not so plainely Translated , and therefore we require you to stande to the Original , as it is in Greeke : neither that ye defende your lie with the wrested Exposition of Theodore Balsamon , Theodore Balsamon . who hath written Greeke Commentaries vpon the Canons of the Councels , sithens the schisme of the Greekes , him selfe beinge a Schismatike . For he beinge a Greeke borne , and prick● with the hatred of his Nation against the Latine Churche , and specially the See of Rome : in th exposition of that sixth Canon of the Nicene Councel swarueth bothe from learninge , and also from reason .

The B. of Sarisburie .

In déede it is a shame to belie any creature : for that lieinge is shameful of it selfe . And therefore , M. Hardinge , ye mighte doo mutche better , to vse it lesse . You haue brought vs here an Exposition of the Councel of Nice , sutche , as I thinke , from that time vntil this time hath seldome benne hearde of . You saie , The Bishop of Romes Custome was , TheConn cel of Nice to geue Iurisdiction to the Patriarkes of Alexandria , of Antioche , and of Hierusalem : and that thei had none Authoritie of Gouernmente , but onely so mutche , as was limited , and allowed by him . And this , you saye , was the onely , and vndoubted meaninge of that Councel . This fantasie is not here auouched by any Auncient Doctour , or Learned Father . Therefore wée muste thinke , what so euer it be , it is your owne . And weighinge the strangenesse of the same , I muste needes saie of yow , as S. Hierome saide sometime of one Rheticius in the like case , Hieronym . ad Marcellam . Rheticius eloquens quidem est , sed ineptus Interpres : Rheticius is an eloquente man in deede : and yet but a fonde Interpreter . For it is certaine , and knowen euen vnto Children , that the Bishop of Rome , before the Councel of Nice , had neither sutche Custome of Superioritie , nor sutche dealinge of Iurisdictions . Pope Pius Secundus saithe , Aeneas Syluius . Epist. 288. Ante Nicenam Synodum vnusquisque sibi vixit : & paruus respectus ad Romanam Ecclesiam halebatur : Before the Councel of Nice , euery Bishop liued to him selfe : and there was then smal regarde had to the Churche of Rome .

As for our sortishe Argumentes , sutche as by your iudgemente any sorte would be ashamed to make , I maye leaue them wel to you , M. Hardinge ; not for that ye lacke them greately , but for that , as it appeare the by your Bookes , ye knowe beste howe to vse them .

Touchinge the sixthe Canon of this Councel , whiche , you imagine , is so darke , and doubteful , I truste , it shal be plainely , and clearely opened , by them that were neuer hitherto accounted sottishe .

The woordes thereof are plaine yenough . The sense is this . The whole Body of Christendome was diuided into foure Patriarkshippes : wherof the First was Rome : the Seconde Alexandria : the Thirde Antioche : the Fourthe Hierusalem . And eche of these was limited , and bounded within it selfe : Alexandria , to haue the ouersight ouer Egypte , & Pentapolis : Antioche , ouer Syria : Hierusalem , ouer Iurie : Rome , Lipomanus in Praefatione . Copus Dial. 1. 16● Balsamonem Virum cerie doctē ouer Italie , and other Churches of the Weaste . And herein wée haue the Exposition of Theodorus Balsamon , that liued fiue hundred yeeres agoe , and was Patriarke of Antioche , and , as somme of M. Hardinges trendes haue thought , a man of greate Learninge . Yet for as mutche as M. Hardinge here vtterly refuseth him , not onely as a Schismatique , but also as a man bothe of Learninge , and Reason , let vs therefore sée somme others .

Nilus , a Gréeke Authour , hereof writeth thus : Sed vt etiam liquidiùs appareat , Nilus , De Primatu Romani Pontificis . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Papam non imperare alijs omnibus Episcopis , legatur Sextus Canon Synodi Nicenae : quo Disertè praecipitur , vt alijs Ecclesijs alexandrinus , alijs Romanus , alijs Antiochenus praesit : vt non liceat alteri alterius prouinciam inuadere : That it maie the more plainely appeare , that the Pope hathe no Gouernment ouer al other Bishoppes , reade the Six the Canon of the Councel of Nice . There it is expressely Commaunded , that the Bishop of Alexandria shal haue the rule ouer certaine Churches : and the Bishop of Rome ouer certaine : and the Bishop of Antioche likewise ouer certaine : and that it be not lawful for any one of them to inuade an others Iurisdiction . Farther he saithe , Quòd si quis suis non contentus , aliena appetit , ille san● meritò & Consuetudinis , & Sanctorum Canonum violator haberi debet : Yf any one ( of these Patriarkes ) not contented with his owne , craue Dominion ouer others , ( as doothe the Pope ) he ought of right to be called a breaker bothe of the Custome , and also of the Holy Canons .

If M. Hardinge wil yet saie , Ruffinus Eccle. Historiae Lib. 1. Cap. 6. this Exposition is sottishe , let vs sée , in what sorte Others haue expounded the same . Rufinus openinge the same Canon saithe thus : Statutum est in Concilio Niceno , vt apud Alexandriam , & in V●be Roma Vetusta Consue●udo seruetur : Suburbicaru Ecclesiarum vt vel ille Aegypti , vel hic Suburbicarum Ecclesiarum solicitudinem gerat : It was decreed in the Councel of Nice , that in Alexandria , and in Rome the Olde Custome should be kepte : that the Bishop of Alexandria should rule ouer Egypte : and the Bishop of Rome ( not ouer al the world , but ) ouer the Churches of his Suburbs .

Likewise it was afterwarde ordred in the Councel holden at Constantinople : Definimus Sedi Constantinopolitanae Paria Iura , Concil. Constantinopo . 2. Cap. 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Nicepho . Lib. 12. Cap. 13. & Priuilegia cum Sede Veteris Romae : Wee Decree , that the See of Constantinople shal haue Rightes , and Priuiseges Equal ( and one ) with the See of Olde Rome .

Therefore Nicephorus saithe , Romano , & Constantinopolitano Episcopo Ex Aequo Paria sunt , & Dignitatis praemia , & Honorum iura : The Titles of Dignities , and rightes of Honour , geuen to the Bishop of Rome , and to the Bishop of constantinople , are One , and Equal .

For this cause Athanasius saithe , Athanas . ad Solitariam Vitam agentes . Cod. De Sacrosanctis Ecclesijs : Omni innouatione . Concil. Aphrica . Cap. 105. Nilus , De Primatii Papa . Roma erat Meeopolis Romanae Ditionis : Rome was the Moother Churche ( not of the Whole Worlde , but ) of the Romaine Iurisdiction . In like sorte the Emporour Iustinian saithe , Ecclesia Vrbis Constantinopolitanae Romae Veteris Praerogatiua laetatur : The Churche of Constantinople enioieth the Prerogatiue , or Priuilege of the Churche of Olde Rome . So likewise S. Augustine , and other Learned , and Godly Bishoppes in the Councel of Aphrica , vnderstoode the same Canon . And therefore they called the Popes Presumption , crauinge Vniuersal Iurisdiction ouer al the Worlde , Fumosum saeculi Typhum , The smoky Pride of the world . To conclude , Nilus saithe thus , Nunc , cùm aliae Regiones assigna●ae sint Romano , aliae Alexandrino , aliae Constantinopolitano , non magis hi sub illo sunt , quàm ille sub hisce : Seeinge there be certaine Countries appointed out for the Bishop of Rome , certaine for the Bishop of Alexandria , and certaine for the Bishop of Constantinople , they are nowe nomore subiecte vnto him , then he vnto them .

But al these perhaps were Sottes , and theire saieinges S●ttishe : and noman is hable rightly to vnderstande these maters , but he that can saie , Consuetudo , is Latine for a Commission : or , Mos parilis , for Vniuersal Iurisdiction .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 7.

And as for the Bishop of Rome , who nowe calleth al maters before him selfe alone , except he doo his duetie , as he ought to doo , except he minister the Sacramentes , except he instructe the People , excepte he warne them and teache them , wee saye that he ought not of right once to be called a Bishop , or so mutche as an Elder . For a Bishop , as saithe Augustine , is a name of labour , and not of Honour : that the man , that seeketh to haue Preeminence , and not to profite , maye vnderstande , him selfe to be no Bishop .

M. Hardinge .

Neither the Bishop of Rome , An euil Bishop loseth not the name of a Bishop , though he lose the metite of a Bishop . Vide Augustin . Lib. 2. contra Epist. Parmen . Cap. 13. Tom. 7. 1. Tim. 2. nor any other Bishop is worthy of the Name of a Bishop , except he do the duetie of a Bishop . Al this wee graunt . But that he ought not of right to be so called , of those whom he hathe charge ouer , in case of omittinge his duetie : thereto we saie , that although in respect of his domeanou● he be not worthy to be called a Bishop ▪ yet in respecte of the Vocation , Degree , and Preeminence , though he leaue his duetie vndone , for whiche he incurreth daunger of damnation , that Title perteineth vnto him of good right , and so continually he is and ought to be acknowleged for a Bishop , though an euil and an vnworthy Bishop : likewise a Priest . And whereas S. Augustine saithe , that a Bishop is a name of labour , and not of Honour , he is to be vnderstand so as the Scripture is : Whiche in some places speakinge of two thinges , that are bothe in dede to be affirmed , the one beinge of more importance then the other , denieth the one in comparison of the other , &c.

Yet it semeth to be a secrete preparation towarde a purpose againste sutche time , as the Princes Gouernemente shal mislike theire phantasies . For where they Learned this Opinion , concerning Bishops , there Learned they also the like , concerninge Ciuil Magistrates . I meane Wicklef . Amonge whose Heretical articles condemned by the Churche in the Councel of Constance , A Bishop no Bishop . this is rekened for the fiftenth : Nullus est Dominus Ciuilis , nullus est Praelatus , nullus est Episcopus dum est in peccato mortali . That is to saie , None is a Temporal Lorde , none is a Prelate , none is a Bishop , so longe as he is in deadly sinne .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This mater shal néede no greate contention . The like woordes haue benne vttered by sundrie other Holy Fathers . S. Chrysostome saithe , Multi Sacerdotes , Chryso . in Matthae . Homil. 43. Chrysost. in eod. Homil. & Pauci Sacerdotes : Multi nomine , Pauci Opere : Many Priestes there be , and few Priestes there be : Many in name , and fewe in Laboure . Againe , Quomodò potest esse Magister , qui Discipulum non habet ? Acquire Discipulum , & esto Magister : Howe can he be a Maister , Ambro. De Dignita . Sacerdotali , Cap. 4. Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist 32. that ●ath no Scholare ? Geate thee a Scholar , and then be a Maister . S. Ambrose saithe , Nisi bonum Opus amplectaris , Episcopus esse non potes : Oulesse thou embrace the good labour , a Bishop thou canste not be . S. Gregorie saithe , Sacerdotes nominamur , & non sumus : Priestes wee are called , but Priestes wee are not .

As for Wicklefe , he expoundeth plainely his owne meaninge , and that with M. Hardinges owne Construction . For these be his woordes , euen as they are alleged by his enimies : Papa , In Concil. Constantien . Session . 15 vel Praelatus malus , & Praescitus , est aequiuocè Pastor : & verè Fur , & Latro : The Pope , or any other wicked Prelate , in double or doubteful speache is a Postour : but in very deede he is a Theefe , and a Murtherer . So Chrysostome saithe : Qui ab hominibus ordinatus est , Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 53. quantum ad Deum artinet , non est Sacerdos , aut Diaconus : He that is appointed by menne ( and not by God ) before God , is neither Priest , nor Deacon .

If Wicklefe , vpon iuste zele of the House of God , for that he then sawe , the Bishoppes either knew nothing , or did nothinge , or cared for nothinge , either spake , or meante more , then Truthe maie beare , wée defende it not . Notwithstandinge , touchinge that is obiected of deadly sinne , it séemeth , he folowed therein the Councel of Valentia in France . Concil. Valentin . sub Damas . ca. 4. The woordes be these : Quicunque sub Ordinatione , vel Diaconatus , vel Presbyterij , vel Episcopatus , Mortali Crimine dixerint se esse pollusos , à supradictis Ordinationibus submoueātur : Who so eues after the Order , either of Deaconship , or of Priesthoode , or of Bishoprike , shal saie they haue benne defiled with Mortal Sinne , let them be remoued from the foresaide Orders .

So. S. Augustine saithe , as he is alleged by Gratian , 2. Quae. 7. Qui nec regiminis . Qui nec sua crimina detersit , nec filiorum crimen correxit , Canis impudicus dicendus est magis , quàm Episcopus : He that neither hath wiped of his owne finnes , nor corrected the Sinnes of his Children , ought rather to be called a shamelesse Dogge , then a Bishop .

Yet notwithstanding , to remoue al strife , what so euer the Bishop of Rome be , or what so euer he doo , let him hardly be called a Bishop , bicause , as M. Hardinge saithe , he standeth in roome of a Bishop : Or , as Wicklefe saithe , let him so be called . Aequiuocè , that is to saie , by a woorde of double meaning : as Vnsauery Salte is called Salte : Or as the Prophetes of Baal are called Prophetes : Or as a painted Man is called a Man : And as S. Gregorie saithe , Let him he called a Prieste , although in deede he be no Prieste . Let him be called a Teacher , although he Teache not : Let him be called a Féeder , although he Feéde not . S. Cyprian saith of S. Paule , Ipsum , Cyprian . Lib. 1. Epist. 3. Concil. Trident. De Sacramente Ordinis . Athanasius Ad Solitariam Vitam agentes . Hieron . in Soph●niam , Cap. 1 . quamuis inane Nomen , & Vmbram quandam Sacerdotis cogitans , expauit : S. Paule was afroide , consideringe onely the emptie Name , and Shadowe of a Bishop . And in the late Councel of Tridente the mater is concluded thus , Qui dicit , cos , qui non exercent Ministerium Verbi , & Sacramentorum , non esse Sacerdotes , Anathema sit : Who so euer saie , that they , that Minister neither the Woorde of God , nor the Sacramentes , be no Priestes , Accursed be he . But Athanasius saithe , Quid opus est hominibus titulo Episcopis ? What neede haue wee of these menne , that beare onely the name of Eishoppes ? Therefore S. Hierome saithe , Auferet Dominus Nomina Vanae gloriae , & Admirationis falsae , quae versantur in Ecclesia . Sed & Nomina Sacerdotum cum Sacerdotibus dotibus aufere● , Prowde . Name . qui frustrà sibi applaudunt in Episcopali , & in Presbyterij Dignitate , & non in Opere : The Lord shal take awaie the names of Vaine glorie , and of ●●ined woo●dering , whiche are in the Churche : Yea he shal take awaie bothe the names of those Priestes , and the Priestes withal , whiche vaunte them selues in the Dignitie of Bishoprike , and Priestehoode , but not in the Laboure .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 1.

And that neither the Pope , nor any other worldly Creature can nomore be Head of the whole Churche , or a Bishop ouer al , then he can be the Bridegome , the Light , the Saluation , and Life of the Churche . For these Priuileges , & Names belonge onely to Christe , and be properly , and onely sfitte for him alone .

And that no Bishop of Rome did euer suffer him selfe to be called by sutche a proude name & title , before Phocas the Emperours time ( who , as we know , by killing his owne Soueraine Mauritius the Emperoure , did by a Traiterous Villanie aspire to the Empire ) Whiche was aboute the sixthe hundreth and thirteenth yeere after Christe was borne .

M. Hardinge .

The name of Vniuersal Bishop , Vniuersal Bishop . which this Interpreter meaneth , beinge taken in a right sense , is no proude name , in respecte of him , * * Vntruthe , For it belongeth not vnto the Pope . to whom it belongeth . Whether any Bishop of Rome euer suffered himselfe to be called by that name , of no , as you denie it , and proue it not , so it forceth not whether any did so , or no. If they refused it of humilitie , that proueth it not to be Vnla●ful .

The B. of Sarisburie .

If the name of Vniuersal Bishop be a Prowde Name in others , why may it not also be a Prowde Name in the Bishop of Rome ? Hath the Bishop there sutche a special Priuilege for Pride aboue al others ? May Pride be Humilitie , and Humilitie Pride , onely in respecte of diuerse Personnes ? You saie , This Title of right belonged to the Bishop of Rome : and therefore in him it was no Pride . This , M. Harding , is a fowle Vntruthe , as it shal appeare by the nexte Diuision . For these be the woordes of the Councel of Carthage , as Gratian allegeth them : Vniuersalis autem ( Episcopus ) nec ipse Romanus Pontifex appelletur : Distin. 99. Primae Sedis . The Bishop of Rome him selfe maie not be called the Vniuersal Bishop .

That the Olde Learned , and Godly Bishoppes of Rome refused this Name , as Prowde , and Arrogante , it is so plaine by S. Gregorie , that I marueile , any Learned man woulde calle it in question . His woordes thereof be these : Nullus Decessorum meorum hoc tam Profano Vocabulo vti consensit : Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 32. & 36. Nullus Romanorum Pontificum hoc Singularitatis Nomen assumpsit : Nos hunc honorem nolumus oblatum suscipere : None of my Predecessours Bishoppes of Rome , euer consented to vse this Vngodly Name : No Bishop of Rome euer toke vpon him this Name of Singularitie : Wee , the Bishoppes of Rome , wil not receiue this honour beinge offred vnto vs .

If the Bishoppes of Rome in Olde times refused this Name , not for wante of right , but onely , as M. Hardinge saithe , of Humilitie , wherefore then did theire Successours , that folowed afterwarde , so ambitiously laboure to geate the same ? Platina saithe , Platina in Bonifa●io . 3. Bonifacius Tertius obtinuit à Phoca , Magna tamen Contentione : Pope Bonifacius the thirde obteined of the Emperour Phocas that Rome should be called the Heade of al Churches ) but with Greate Contention , and mutche adoo . Wherefore then dooth S. Augustine , & the whole Councel of Aphrica condemne the attempt of this vsurped Iurisdiction , Prowde Name . and calle it Fumosum Saeculi Typhum ? The smoky Pride of the Worlde : And that euen in the Bishoppes of Rome .

If the Bishop of Rome be so fulle of Humilitie , as wée are here borne in hande , why auaunceth he him selfe so High aboue al General Councelles ? Why saithe he , that no Creature may iudge his dooinges ? Why claimeth he the Swerde and Scepter of al the World ? Why saithe he , that Christes Consistorie , and his Consistorie are al One , and that he can doo , al that God him selfe can doo ? Why doothe he saye , That the Emperoure is but the Proctour , or Bailife of the Churche of Rome : Distinct . 98. Si Imperator . In gloss . Procurator , sfiue Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae ? Why doothe he suffer Kinges , and Emperours to holde his Stirope , to leade his Palfrai , and to kisse his foote ? Verily this kinde of Humilitie in other places might goe for Pride . Hesychius saithe , Hesychius . Sen. Lib. 4. 〈◊〉 . 17. Curerg● . Dist. 40. Mul●i . Vbi Superbia regnat , & Hypocrisis , Humilitas locum non habet : Where Pride , and Hypocrisie beare the swaie , there Humilitie can haue no place . Likewise Chrysostome saithe , Quicunque desiderauerit Primatum in Terra , inuenie● in Coelo confusionem : nec inter Seruos Christi computabitur , qui de Primatu tractauerit : Who so euer defireth Primacie in Earthe , in Heauen he shal finde Confusion : Neither shal he be accumpted emong the Seruauntes of Christe , that wil once intreate of Primacie .

To conclude , a Learned Man , one of M. Hardinges owne side , hereupon hathe noted thus : Heruaeus , De potes●ate Papae . Cap. 13. Bonifacius obtinuit à Phoca , vt Ecclesia Romana esset Caput Omnium Ecclesiarum . Ex quo posset modo consimili sumi Argumentum , qu●d ad Imperatorem pertineat , Primatum Ecclesiae transferre , & de Ecclesijs Ordinare : Pope Bonifacius the thirde obteined of the Emperour Phocas , that the Churche of Rome should be the Head of al Churches . Whereof wee maye in like case geather an Argumente , that it belongeth to the Emperour , to translate the Primacie of the Churche , and to take Order for the Churches .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 2.

Also the Councel of Carthage did circumspectly prouide , that no Bishop should be called either the Highest Bishop , or Chiefe Prieste .

M. Hardinge .

Here by your leaue , Syr Defender , you playe false , and are taken , as it were , with false Dyse , and therefore ye ought iustly to lose al that ye haue vniustly wonne by your false playe , Falsefieinge of a Councel . and false Dyse : I meane your shameful falsefieinge of this Councel by you alleaged . And for this and other your falsehed it is right you lose the credite , whiche vniustly ( bicause by false Teachinge ) you haue wonne amonge the Vnlearned . M. Harding is a mery man . That your false plaie might not sone be espted , you doo as like to Mais●er Iuel , as though you were his Fathers Sonne . For that false sleight he vseth more , then any that euer I readde . For where as we haue seuen Councelles of Carthage , nether shewe you , whiche of them it is that you alleage , nor geue any notice of the number , where the Canon maye be founde . But contrariwise as the Lap winge with her busie crie leadeth a man from her neste , so you leade vs from the Place , where it is , by puttinge in the Margent of your Booke the number , 47. that not findinge it by your note , Iohan. 5. we should geue ouer further lookinge for it . Who dothe euil , hateth Light , saithe Christe . So here falsefieing * * Vntruthe . For , this Canon wil soone be founde . and forginge a Canon of a Councel , you would faine walke in clowdes , that your lieing might not be deprehended , &c. So had it ben done more circumspectly for furtherance of your fals hed , if the matter should neuer come to trial of Learninge .

Nowe , who so euer examineth the place truly , must nedes crie out shame on you , Defender , who are th auctour . The 26. Canon of the thirds Councel of Carthage discus . sed . The woordes , if you had listed to haue alleged them without falshed , be these , Whiche we finde in the 26. Canon of the thirde Councel of Carthage , whiche Councel was Authorized by the sixth general Councel holden at Constantinople in Trullo . Vt primae sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum , aut Summus Sacerdos , aut aliquid huiusmodi , Sed tantùm , Primae Sedis Episcopus . And thus they are to be Englished . It hathe liked vs ( saie the Fathers of that Councel ) that a Bishop of a First See be not called Prince of Priestes , or Highest Priest , or any sutche other thinge , Higheste Bishop , Prince of Priestes . but onely a Bishop of a Firste see . Nowe commeth me this iotly Defender , and saith● the Councel of Carthage hathe by expresse wordes , ( for so mutche his Latine foundeth ) that no Bishop should be called either the Highest Bishop , or Chiefe Pr●est . By whiche Canon thus by him vntruely vttered , he thought to deprtue the Pope of this * * Vntruthe , as shal appeare . Auncient Title , that al the worlde hathe euer at●ributed vnto him , so as he be called nomore Summus Pontifex .

For the right vnderstandinge of this Canon two thinges are to be considered . Vile Epistolam 〈◊〉 9. ad Petrum & Iohannem Aph●ic● Episcopos . Howe farre the Authoritie of this Councel ought to be extended , and what is meant by a Firste See . * * Vntruthe . For this Councel namely restreineth the B. of Rome . The Decrees of this Councel perteined but to the Prouince of Aphrike . For prouinc●al Councelles binde onely the prouinces , in whiche , and for Order of whiche they be kepte . Onely the General Councelles are to be receiued of al.

By these two woordes , Prima Sedes , what it meaneth . Prima Sedes those Fathers vnderstode any Citie , in whiche a Patriarke of Primate , who are of one office , though of diuerse names , hathe his see . I cal it a first see , or rather ( if it might be permitted ) a Primate see . * * Vntruthe ▪ grounded vpon a fable In greate Citties where the Highest courtes for iustice were kept , Distin. 99. de Primatibus . and where the chiefe Pagane Priestes of the Latines named , Primi Flamines , were resident before the comminge of Christe , there after Christes comminge were Patriarkes or Primates placed : by whom the weighte matters of Bishops should be decided * * Vntruthe , grounded as the Former . Whiche Order was taken firste by commaundement of S. Peter , Dist. 99. C. Proninciae . as Clement writeth : by the Apostles and Clement , as Anacletus witnesseth : by the Apostles and theire Successours afterward , as Lucius the Pope saithe .

Nowe the Councel of Carthage by this Defender alleaged , and likewise the Aphrican Councel ordeined and willed , that a Bishop of any of the Primate Sees of Aphr●ke shoulde not be called , Princeps Sacerdotum , aut Summus Sacerdos , Prince or chiefe of the Priestes , or High●st Prieste : by whiche woorde a Bishop is there signified : But onely a Bishop of the Primate See , whereof he was Primate . By whiche Decree they willed * * Moste manifeste & moste vaine Vntruthe . For the woordes of the Councel are these : Vniuersalis autem nec etiam Romanus pontifex appelletur . only theire Primates of Aphrike to kepe themselues within theire limites , and not presumptuously to take vpon them more gloriouse Titles , and further Iurisdiction , then to them pertetned , Lest surely they might seme to preiudicate the Popes Supremacie . Thus it is euident , th auctoritie of that Charthage Councel , being restrained to ●phrike onely , that by this Canon the Popes Prima ie and Title is no Whit dim●n●shed or disproued . And so for al this Defender , he remaineth as he hathe * * A greate Vntruthe . euer , Highest Bishop .

The B. of Sarisburie .

What , M. Hardinge , so mutche falsehed vpon vs at one time ? Falsifieinge of Councelles : Shameful Falsifieinge : False teachinge : False sleight : False Dise : False Plaie : and al False ? Yet Christe saithe of him selfe , I am the Truthe . God geue you grace , to credite him . For the errour of quotation in the margin , wherin you spende so many woordes , it maye please you to knowe , that I neither was the Printer , nor coulde be presente at the Printinge . For the reste , if there can be any one pointe of Falsehed founde in me , touchinge the allegation of this Councel of Carthage , I wil not refuse to stande charged with the whole . But if euery of these horrible Falseheddes be found an euident , and plaine Truthe , then it maye please you , to take home al these prety Titles to your selfe againe , as in euery of these woordes so often doubled , and so heapte togeather , hauing your selfe committed a seueral Falsehedde .

And herein for trial of your courteous dealinge , I am contente , your selfe shal fit , and be the Iudge . For , notwithstanding it be thought of many , that ye dissemble déepely , and wil not bestowe your voice to saie the Truthe : Yet I doubte not , but in this mater , if ye haue eles , ye maye easily looke vp , and sée the Truthe .

You saye , Sir Defender hathe falsely alleged the Councel of Carthage . And why so ? For that he saithe , The Councel Decréed by expresse woordes , that the Bishop of Rome should not be called the Vniuersal Bishop . This , you saie , is Forged , and Falsified , and is no parte of that Councel . For indifferent trial bothe of the Truthe , and of the Falsehed herein , I beseche you , beholde the very woordes of the Councel , Higheste Bishop , Prince of Priestes . Disti . 99. Primae . euen as thei are alleged by your own Doctour Gratiam . These thei are : Primae Sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum , vel Summus Sacerdos , vel aliquid huiusmodi : Sed tantùm , Primae Sedis Episcopus . Vniuersalis autem nec etiam Romanus Pontifex appelletur : Let not the Bishop of any of the Firste Sees be called the Prince of Priestes , Or the Highest Prieste , or by any other like name : but Onely , the Bishop of the Firste see . But let not the Bishop of Rome him selfe be called the Vniuersal Bishop . And in the Glose thereupon it is noted thus , In hac Distinctione dicitur , quod Papa non debet dici Vniuersalis : In this Distinction it is saide , that the Pope ought not to be called the Vniuersal Bishop .

Nowe , M. Hardinge compare our woordes , and the Councelles wordes bothe togeather . Wée saie none otherwise , but as the Councel saithe , The Bishop of Rome him selfe ought not to be called the Vniuersal Bishop . Herein wée doo neither adde , nor minishe , but reporte the woordes playnely , as wée finde them . If you had lookte better on your Booke , and would haue tried this mater , as you saye , by your Learninge , ye might wel haue reserued these Vnciuile reproches of Falsehedde to your selfe , and haue spared your Crieinge of Shame vpon this Defender .

Touchinge , that you so pleasantly cheare your selfe with these woordes , You doo as like to M. Iewel , as if you were his Fathers Sonne ▪ I muste answeare you , as S. Augustine sometime did the Heretique Cresconius : August . Contra Cresc . Li. 3. Ca. 38 Serua potius Puerilia Pueris : Keepe sutche Childishe toies to plaie with your Children . God make vs bothe like vnto our Father that is in Heauen .

Where you saie , of your selfe onely , without farther witnesse , that this Title is the Popes Auncient right , euer géeuen to him by al the world , I doubte not , but the vntruthe hereof by my Former Replie , Artic. 4. Gregor. Lib. 7 Epist. 30. touching the same , maie soone appeare . Certainely , when the same Title was offered to S. Gregorie , he refused it vtterly , as none of his .

In déede , this Councel of Carthage notwithstanding , the Title of Highest Bishop was sometimes geuen , not onely to the Bishop of Rome , & other Patriarkes , but also vnto al other Bishoppes . M. Hardinge● Amphilochius . Rufinus , Lib. 2. Cap. 23. M. Hardinges owne Amphilochius calleth S. Bastle Principem Sacerdotum : The Prince , or Chiefe of Bishoppes Rufinus : calleth Athanasius , Pontificem Maximum : The Highest Bishop . Nazianzenus calleth the same Athanasius Archisacerdotem Sacerdotum : The Chiefe Bishop of Bishoppes Lactantius . calleth euery Bishoprike Summum Sacerdotium . Nazian. Ad H●ronem . Likewise S. Hierome saith , Ecclesiae Salus in Summi Sacerdotis dignitate pendet : The safetie of the Churche standeth in the dignitie of the Highest Priest . Lactan. Lib. 4. Cap. 30. By whiche Highest Prieste , M. Hardinge him selfe saithe , is meante euery seueral Bishop within his owne Diocese . S. Augustine saithe , Hieron , contra Luciferianos . M. Hardinge in his Answeare to the Apologie , Fol. 204. b. Quid est Episcopus , nisi Primus Presbyter , hoc est , Summus Sacerdos ? What is a Bishop , but the First , or Chiefe Prieste , that is to saie , the Highest Prieste ? Therefore wée may safely spare the Pope this Title , of Highest Bishop , not as Peculiar to him alone , as M. Hardinge imagineth , but as Common , and General to al Bishoppes .

Al that ye haue here alleged of the Iurisdiction of the Flamines , is a mere fantasie ▪ grounded onely vpon an vnsauery Fable of Anacletus , and Clemens . Neither are you hable to finde , In Quaest. Ex vtroque Testamen ▪ mixtim , Qu. 10● . either these names , Archiflamines , or Protoflamines , whiche here are imagined , in any Ancient allowed Writer , or any sutche Vniuersal Iurisdiction to them belonginge .

The Firste , or Principal , or Mother Sees were limited , not by the Flamines , but by the Prince . Concil. Chalced. Cap. 12. So it is written in the Councel of Chalcedon : Quascunque Ciuitates per Literas Regias Metropolitico nomine honorarunt : A Primate See . What Citties so euer by the Princes Charter , they honoured with the name of the Mother See . And therefore the Emperour Theodosius vpon displeasure conceiued , Chrys. ad Popul . Antiochen . Homi. 17. tooke that Name of Honoure from the Cittie of Antioche , mindinge it shoulde be so called nomore . And for that cause was the Cittie of Rome chosen emongest others to be a Primate , or a Principal Mother Sée , not for that either Christe , or Peter had so appointed , as M. Hardinge telleth vs , but for that it was the moste Noble Cittie , and of greattest renoume in al the world . Concil. Chalced. Ca. 28. The woordes be plaine : Sedi Veteris Romae Patres meritò dederunt Primatum , Quòd illa Ciuitas aliis Imperaret : The Fathers woorthily gaue the Chiefetie to the See of the Olde Rome : Bicause that Cittie had the Princehood ouer others .

Nowe concerninge this Decrée of the Councel of Carthage , it touched as wel the Bishop of Rome , as other Primates . And therefore Pope Adriane afterward alleging , and corrupting the same , added thereto this special Prouiso for him selfe : Nullus Archiepiscoporum , nisi qui Primas Sedes renent , appelletur Primas , aut Princeps Sacerdotum , Adri●● . Papa . In Capitulis ex Synodis , & Canonib . diuer. collec . To. 2. Pag. 611. aut Summus Sacerdos , aut aliquid huiusmodi &c. Salua semper in omnibus Authoritate Beati Petri Apostoli : Let no Archebishop , sauinge sutche , as heue the Principal , or Firste Sees , he called either the Primate , or the Prince of Priestes , or the Highest Prieste , or by any other like name , &c. Sauinge alwaies , and in al thinges the Authoritie of Blessed S. Peter the Apostle .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 3.

And therefore sithence the Bishop of Rome wil nowe a daies so be called , & chalengeth vnto him selfe an Authoritie that is none of his : bisides that he dothe plainely contrarie to the Ancient Councelles , and contrarie to the Olde Fathers : Wee beleue , that he dothe geue to him selfe , as it is written by his owne Companion Gregorie , a Presumptuouse , a Prophane , Al these be the Woordes of Gregorie . a Sacrilegious and Antichristian name : that he is also the Kinge of Pride , that he is Lucifer , whiche preferreth him selfe before his Bretherne : that he hathe forsaken the Faith , and is the Forerunner of Antichriste .

M. Hardinge .

Here is mutche adoo aboute nought , and a number of bitter woordes pyked out of S. Gregorio● Epistles , pretended to be written against the Bishop of Rome , to no purpose . For if wee say , * * Vntruthe . For Platina saithe , Bonifacius 3. Obtinuit à Phoca , Magna tamen Contentione . as wee may saie truely , that he chalengeth to him selfe no sutche name , then what hath this Defender to saie ? Let him shew vs how many Bishops of that see euer tooke the name of the Vniuersal Bishop vpon them , specially as Gregorie vnderstandeth it to signifie . If he can shewe none , why blotteth he so mutche paper with so impudent lies ?

* * There appeareth no sutche mater in al that Counc●l . In deede the six hundred and thirty Fathers of the general Councel of Chalcedon gaue to Pope Leo that name , as Gregorie in three sundrie Epistles writeth , and certaine other in theire writinges haue attributed to the Pope the same . But that either Leo , or any other his Successour a a Vntruthe , As appear●th by the Former Authoritie of Platina . affected so to be called , Gregorie denieth● b b Vntruthe , As further appeareth by the Answeare . And that any since Gregories time to our dayes euer called or wrote him selfe Vniuersal Bishop , we denie .

Whereas Pelagius , and Gregorie , writinge againste the Presumption of Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople for takinge vpon him this name , are mutche alleged by the enimies of Vnitie , againste the Authoritie of Peters Successour ouer the whole Churche : we saye , that they folowinge the sleppes of theire Predecessours refused the name of Vniuersal Bishop in sutche sense , as Pelagius , and specially Gregorie oftentimes declareth , that where one is called Vniuersal Bishop , he semeth to be called * * Vntruthe , and most Vaine fantasie . For no Bishop of Constantinople euer dreamed of sutche Authoritie . Bishop alone , Vniuersal so as Bishoprike should be taken away from al others . But they refused not so to be called after this meaninge , as though by that refusal the Auctoritie of the Bishop of Rome should be restrained , and not extende ouer the whole Churche . They denie , that any man might so be Vniuersal Bishop , as he should be also the peculiar ruler , and Gouernour of euery particular Churche . For so al other Bishops had ben in vaine : and that is contrary to Christes Institution , who ordeined al the Apostles to be Bishops . To saie al in few , they refused the name that might odiously be taken , they refused not the Primacie * * Vntruthe . For Christe neuer erected any sutche Primacie . whiche Christe to them had committed . Therefore Gregorie writinge to Morice the Emperour , alleaginge the woordes that make for Peters Auctoritie ouer the whole Flocke of Christe , saithe of Peter , * * The like whole Charge was geuen to Paule , Iohn , and Mathewe : as shal appeare . The Charge of the whole Churche and Principalitie is committed to him , and yet is he not called Vniuersal Apostle . Where it is plaine , that Gregorie doth both affirme the charge of the whole , and denieth the name of Vniuersal . Let these Defenders graunte the thinge , and we striue not for the name .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here it pleasethe M. Hardinge of his Courtesie to saye , Wée haue blotted our papers with so many , & so many impudente Lies . His whole discourse standeth onely in the Construction of this woorde , Vniuersal , in what sense it maye be either refused , or claimed . How be it , vnderstand thou , gentle Reader , that al this is M. Hardinges owne onely Commentarie . For other Doctour , or Father he allegeth none .

Firste , where it is saide , that S. Gregorie by this woorde , Vniuersal Bishop , meante him , that woulde be Bishop alone ouer al the worlde , excludinge al others , this exposition is not onely strange , but also vaine , and fonde , and voide of reason . For what Bishop of Constantinople euer was there , that called him selfe the Only Bishop , and excluded al others ? Doubtelesse Iohn , that firste laide Claime vnto this name , as he called him selfe the Vniuersal Bishop , so he wrote his Letters vnto others , and neuer refused to calle them Bishoppes .

But , to leaue these Gloses , and fantasies , by the Title of Vniuersal Bishop , S. Gregorie meante sutche a one , not , as would be Bishop alone , but as woulde claime Infinite Authoritie , and Vniuersal Iurisdiction ouer al other Bishoppes throughout the Worlde : and that , as S. Cyprian saithe , woulde calle him selfe , Episcopum Episcoporum : The Bishop of Bishoppes .

Therefore S. Cyprian . in Con●cil . Carthagin . Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. Gregorie thus writeth vnto Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople . the Firste Vsurper of this Title : Quid tu Christo Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Capiti in Extremi Iudicij responsurus es examine , qui cuncta eius Membra tibimet conaris Vniuersalis appellatione supponere ? What answeare wilt thou make vnto Christe the Heade of the Vniuersal Churche , when thou shalt be examined at the laste Judgement , ( not that thou haste called thee selfe the Onely Bishop , but ) that thus goest aboute by the name of Vniuersal Bishop to make al his Members subiecte vnto thee ? It was this Immoderate Vniuersal . Iurisdiction , that S. Gregorie reproued , and not the makinge of him selfe Bishop alone , excludinge al others .

Likewise he writeth of him selfe vnto Eulogius : Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 30. Beatitudo vestra mihi sic loquitur , Sicut Iussistis . Quod Verbum Iussionis , peto , à meo auditu remouete . Non Iussi : Sed quae vtilia visa sunt , indicare curaui : Your Holinesse saithe thus vnto me , ( beinge the Bishop of Rome ) As you haue Commaunded . Haue awaye this woorde of Commaundinge from my Hearinge , I beseeche you . I Commaunded you not : but that I tooke to be the beste , I thought good to shewe you . The faulte therefore , that Gregorie findeth with Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople , stoode not in calling him selfe the Onely Bishop , for so he neuer did , but in Bidding , & Commaunding , & Claiming Vniuersalitie of Iurisdiction ouer the whole Churche of Christe . And for that cause he saithe vnto Eulogius : Gregor. Lib. 7. Epist 30. Ecce in Praefatione Epistolae , quam ad ●●eipsum , qui prohibui , direxistis , Superbae Appellationis Verbum , Vniuersalem me Papam dicentes imprimere Curastis . Vniuersal . Quod , peto , dulcissima mihi Sanctitas vestra vltra non faciat : quia vobis subtrahitur , quod alteri plusquam ratio exigit praebetur : Beholde euen in the Title of your Letter ye haue written this Prowde Posee , naminge me The Vniuersal Pope : notwithstanding I haue forbidden it . I beseche your Holinesse , to doo so nomore . For what so euer is geuen vnto any other aboue reason , the same is taken from your selues .

M. Hardinge saithe , Gregorie affirmeth the Charge of the whole , and denieth the name of Vniuersal . Let these Defenders ( saithe he ) graunte the thinge , and wée striue not for the name . Verily this plaie had benne to vaine for Children : to allow the thinge it selfe , and to cauil onely about the name : that is to receiue the Body , and to shunne the Shadowe : Ma●t . 23. Appianus : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Or , as Christe saithe , to swalowe a Camel , and to straine a gnatte . So App●an saithe , Iulius Caesar nicely refused to be called a Kinge : and yet in al manner Authoritie , and Gouernmente bare him selfe none otherwise , then as a Kinge .

It was not the bare Name of Vniuersal Bishop , that so mutche offended the Holy Fathers : but the Pride , and Tyrannie , and Vniuersal Gouernmente , & Iurisdiction , that is signified by that name . If the name were naught , then was the Vsurpation of the thinge it selfe a greate deale woorse .

But S. Gregorie saithe , The Charge , and Principalitie of the whole Churche was committed vnto Peter . This is not denied . In like sorte Chrysostome saithe , The like Charge , and Principalitie of the Churche was committed vnto Paule . For thus he writeth , Chrys. in Sermo . De Eleemosy . Chrysost. in Act. Homili . 53. Paulo Totus Orbis creditus est Paulus gubernat Orbis Ecclesiam : Paulus Vniuersum gubernat Orbem : Vnto Paule the whole World is committed : Paule gouerneth the Churche of the World . Paule ruleth the whole world . And yet Chrysostome meant not hereby , that Paule had the Vniuersal Gouernmente of the whole : but that his care , & Charge was general , Chrysost. De Laudibus Pauli , Homil. 2. as not bound or limited vnto one place , but indifferente , & common vnto al. So he saithe , Paulus tam anxi● omnium salutem curabat , ●c si Totus Mundus vnica esset Domus : Paule was so careful for the Saluation of al menne , as if the Whole Worlde had benne but one House . Chrys. in Homil. De Profectu Euangelij . Chrysost. ad Popul . Antioche . Homil. 73. Againe , Paulum tangebat solicitudo Omnium Ecclesiarum : non Vn●us , aut Duarum , aut Trium , sed Omnium , quae erant per Orbem Terrarum : Paule was moued with the care of Al Churches : not of One , or Two , or Three , but of Al the Churches throughout the World . Likewise he saithe of S. Iohn , Columna erat Omnium , quae in Orbe sunt , Ecclesia●um . He was the Piller of Al the Churches in the Worlde . Likewise againe of S. Mathewe , Matthaeus Vniuersi Orbis curam gerebat : The Whole Worlde was vnder Mathewes Charge . Chrysost. in Prologo in Iohan. Chrys. in Matthae . Homil. 48.

Therefore if M. Hardinge wil geather out of these thrée woordes of S. Gregorie ( Totius Ecclesiae Cura ) that Peter had Vniuersal Iurisdiction ouer al , it muste néedes folowe by the same woordes , that Paule , Iohn , and Mathewe had the same Iurisdiction ouer al. What other thinge he hopeth to gaine by these Woordes of S. Gregorie , I cannot tel : Onlesse happily he wil founde his reason thus : S. Gregorie saithe , Petrus Vniuersalis Apostolus non vocatur : Peter is not called the Vniuersal Apostle : Ergo , The pope is the Vniuersal Bishop .

So handsomely these thinges are geathered togeather , to serue the Pourpose .

Pope Leo , ye saie , of Humilitie refused this Name openly in the Councel of Chalcedon . In déede Pope Gregorie so reporteth it . Notwithstandinge it appeareth not by any thinge donne in that Councel , that this Title was euer offered him . And to refuse a thinge before it be offered , it is no greate pointe of Humilitie .

To be shorte , the beste wée can geather hereof , is this : Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople ambitiously craued this name : Pope Leo godly refused it being offered vnto him : The Popes afterward gladly receiued it without offering . If it were a good name , Vniuersal why was it refused ? If it were an il name , why was it receiued ?

Nowe let vs sée , what they of M. Hardinges side haue meante by this woorde , Vniuersal , and with what Humilitie the Popes haue receiued the same . Thus therefore they write : a a Abbas . De Concess . Praeben . Quia diuersita . Papa est Ordinarius Totius Mundi : The Pope is the Ordinarie of al the World . b b Extra , De Appel ▪ Ve debitus , In Gloss . Papa est Ordinarius Omnium hominum . The Pope is the Ordinarie of Al menne : c c Extra . De statu Regulari , Periculoso . In Gloss . Papa Totius Orbis obtinet Principatum : The Pope hathe the Princehood of Al the Worlde : And when the Pope is Consecrate , the Chiefe Minister saith vnto him , d d Ceremoniar . Lib. 1. Cap. 4. Ego inuestio te de Papatu , vt Praesis Vrbi , & Orbi : I doo inueste thee with the Popedome , that thou maiste rule both the Cittie , and the Worlde .

And whereas M. Hardinge demaundeth , how many Popes haue claimed this name , it may please him to remember , that in the late Councel of Constance it was not onely claimed , but also published , as an Article of the Faithe . The woordes are these , e e Paralipome . Vrspergen . De Disputatione Lipsica . De necessitate Salutis est credere , Papam esse Oecumenicum : It is of the necessitie of Saluation to beleue , that the Pope is the Vniuersal Bishop .

Of this Vniuersalitie of Power Franciscus Zarabella writeth thus : f f Francis . Zarabella . Papa iam occupauit Omnia iura inferiorum Ecclesiarum , ira ▪ vt inferiores Praelati sint pro nihilo : The Pope hathe nowe gotten the right of Al Inferiour Churches , so that the Inferiour Prelates stande nowe for nothinge .

For these causes Gregorie callethe the name of Vniuersal Bishop . a Prophane , a Presumptuous , a Wicked and Antichristian name : Comparinge the Vsurper thereof with Lucifer , and Antichriste .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 1.

Further wee saye , that the Minister ought laufully , duely , and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Churche of God , and that noman hathe Power to wreaste him selfe into the Holy Ministerie at his owne pleasure . Wherefore these personnes doo vs the greatter wronge , whiche haue nothinge so common in theire mouthes , as that wee doo nothinge Orderly , and comely , but al thinges troublesomely , and without order : and that wee allowe euery man to be a Prieste , to be a Teacher , and to be an Interpreter of the Scriptures .

M. Hardinge .

Ye saye , that the Minister ought laufully to be called ( for so hathe your Latine ) and duely and orderly to be preferred to that office of the Churche of God . Why do ye not so ? Why is not this obserued amonge you Gospellers ? What so euer ye meane by your Minister , and by that office , * * Vntruthe . For it is knowen ▪ wee haue them . this are wee assured of , that in this your newe Churche , Bishops , Priestes , Deacons , Subdeacons , or any other Inferiour Orders ye haue none .

For whereas after the Doctrine of your Newe Gospel , like the Forerenners of Antichriste , ye haue * * Vntruthe . For wee haue abandoned neither the Priesthoode , nor the Sacrifice , that Christe appointed . abandoned th external sacrifice , and Priesthood of the Newe Testamente , and haue not in your Secte consecrated Bishops , and therefore beinge without Priestes made with lawful laieinge on of handes , as Scripture requireth , al Holy Orders beinge geuen by Bishops onely : howe can ye saie , that any amonge you can lawfully Minister , or that ye haue any lawful Ministers at al ?

This then beinge so , let me haue leaue to oppose one of these Defenders consciences . And that for the better Vnderstandinge I maye directe my woordes to a certaine person , let him be the Authour of this Apologie , or bicause his name to me is vnknowen , let him be M. Iewel . For with him gladly woulde I reason in this point , the rather for acquaintance , and for that he beareth the name of a Bishop in that Churche , where my selfe had a roume . Howe saye you , Sir Minister Bishop , ought the Minister to be lawfully called ? ought he dewly and orderly to be preferred to that office , or ( as the Latine here hathe ) promoted , or put in Auctoritie ouer the Churche ? in the Apologie this Defender saithe , yea .

Howe many Bishops can you recken , whome in the Churche of Salesbury you haue succeded as wel in Doctrine , as in outwarde sittinge in that Chaire ? Howe many can you tel vs of , that beinge your Predecessours in order before you , were of your Opinion , and taught the faitheful people of that Dioces the Doctrine , that you teache ? Did Bishop Capon teache your Doctrine ? did Shaxton● did Campegius ? did Bishop Audley ? Briefly , did euer any Bishop of that See before you teache your Doctrine ? * * Vntruthe . For B. Shaxton , and B. Capon taught the same . It is moste certaine they did not .

If you cannot shewe your Bishoply Petigree , if you can proue no Succession , then whereby holde you ? Wil you shewe vs the Letters Patentes of the Prince ? Wel may they stande you in some steede before men : before God , who shal cal you to accoumpt for preswninge to take the Highest office in his Churche * * Vntruthe . For he was chosen by Canonical Election of the Chapter , as al other Bishoppes haue benne before . not duely called thereto , they shal serue you to no propose .

You know what Tertullian saithe of sutch as ye be : In praescriptionibus aduersus Haereticos . These be Tertullians woordes . Edant Origines Ecclesiarum suarum , &c. We saye likewise to you M. Iewel , and that we saye to you , we saye to eche one of your Companions : Tel vs the Original and firste springe of your Churche . She we vs the Register of your Bishoppes continually succedinge one an other from the beginninge , so as that firste Bishop haue some one of the Apostles , or of the Apostolike men for his Authour , and Predecessour . For by this waye the Apostolike Churches shewe what reputation they be of . As the Churche of Smyrnae telleth vs of Polycarpe by Iohn the Apostle placed there . The Churche of the Romaines telleth vs of Clement ordeined by Peter . Epist. 165. S. Augustine hauinge reckened vp in order the Bishoppes of Rome to An astasius Successour to Siricius , who was the Eighte and thirteth after Peter , saithe that in al that Number and rolle of Bishoppes there is not founde One , that was a Donatisie : and thereof he concludeth , Ergo , the Donatistes be not Catholikes . So after that wee haue reckened al the Bishoppes of Salisburie from Bishop Capon vpwarde , we shal come at length in respecte of Doctrine and Orders to S. Augustine the Apostle of the Englishe , who was made Bishop by Gregorie , and from Gregorie vpwarde to S. Peter . And in al that rewe of Bishops * * Vntruthe , By your owne Confession . wee shal finde neuer a one that beleued , as M. Iewel beleueth . Ergo , your Zwinglian and Caluinian Belefe , M. Iewel , and of the rest of your felowes is not Catholike .

Therefore , to go from your Succession , whiche ye cannot proue , and to come to your Vocation , how saie you Syr ? You beare your selfe as though you were Bishop of Salisburie . But howe can you proue your Vocation ? By what Authoritie Vsurpe you the Administration of Doctrine and Sacramentes ? What can you alleage for the right and Proufe of your Ministerie ? who hathe called you ? Who hathe laide handes on you ? By what example hathe he done it ? Howe and by whom are you consecrated ? Who hathe sent you ? Who hathe committed to you th●ffice you take vpon you ? Be you a Prieste , or be you not ? If you be no ▪ how dare you Vsurpe the name and Office of a Bishop ? If you be , tel vs Euen he , that gaue M. Hardinge Orders in the time of K. Edwarde . who gaue you Orders ? The Institution of a Prieste , was neuer yet but in the Power of a Bishop . Bishoppes haue alwaies after the Apostles time , accordinge to the Ecclesiastical Canons , ben consecrated by * * Vntruths two togeather in one Sentence : See the Answeare . three other Bishoppes , with the consente of the Metropolitane , and confirmation * of the Bishop of Rome .

Macarius a Prieste of Athanasius , Athanas . in Apologia . ● ( as it was laide to his Charge by his accusers ) pulled Ischyras from the Aul●ar as he was at A vaine Vntruthe . For if it had benne any thinge , it had benne a Communion , & not a Masse . But Athanasius saithe plainely , Neque Ecclesia ibi erat , neque Sacra ficbant , neque tempus mysteriorum agebatur . Masse , ouerthrew the Holy Table brake the Chalice . The matter brought to iudgement , Athanasius and those Bishops both denied the facte and also though it were graunted , yet defended the same as wel done , because Ischyras was not a lawful Minister of the Churche . And why so ? bicause he was not lawfully made Prieste , nor with Churchely laieing on of handes consecrated . By which example besides other pointes wee are taught , what to iudge of your pretensed Communion .

Againe what saye you to Epiphanius , Contra H●res . ● Lib a. In Dialog● contra Luciferianos . who writeth againste one Zacchaeus of his time , for that beinge but a Laye man , with wicked Presumption tooke vpon him to * handle the Holy Mysteries , and rashely to do the office of a Prieste ? Hereof S. Hierome sa●the not ably : Hilarius cùm Diaconus de Ecclesia recesserit , &c. Hilary for asmutche as he went from the Churche beinge a Deacon , and is onely ( as he thinketh ) the multitude of the worlde , can neither consecrate the Sacramente of Th aulter beinge without Bishops and Priestes , nor deliuer Baptisme without the ●uchariste . And whereas nowe the man is deade , Succession . with the man also the secte is ended , because beinge a Deacon he coulde not consecrate any Clerke that shoulde remaine after him . And Churche is there none , Sacerdotem . whiche hath not a Prieste . But lettinge goe these fewe of litle regarde , that to them selues be bothe Laie and Bishoppes , listen what is to be thought of the Churche . Thus S. Hierome there . In whome leauinge other thinges I note , that if there be no Churche , where is no Prieste , Where is your Churche like to become , M. Hardinges Brethren Apostates . after that our Apostates , that nowe be fledde from vs to you , shal be departed this Life ? Therefore this beinge true , it remaineth , M. Iewel , you tel vs , whether your Vocation be Ordinarie or Extraordinarie . If it be Ordinarie , shewe vs the letters of your Orders . At least shewe vs , that you haue receiued Power to doo the Office , you presume to exercise , by due order of laieinge on of handes and Consecration . * * A manifest Vntruthe : For wee haue bothe Order , and Co● secration . But Order , and Consecration you haue not . For who coulde geue that to you of al these Newe Ministers , how so euer els you cal them whiche he hath not him selfe ? If it be Extraordinarie ( as al that ye haue done hitherto is besides al good Order ) shewe vs some Signe or Miracle . If you faile in al these , why ought not you to be put awaie ?

Finally what can you answeare to that , Li. 1. Epist. 6 whiche maye be obiected to you out of S. Cyprians Epistle to Magnus , touchinge Nouatian ? It was at those daies a question , whether Nouatian Baptized and offered , specially where as he vsed the Forme , Maner , and Ceremonies of the Churche . Cyprian denieth it . For he can not ( saithe he ) be compred a Bishop , who settinge at nought the Tradition of the Gospel , Eusebius Eccles. Hist. Li. 6. ca. 43. in Graeco . and of the Apostles , Nemini succedens à seipso ordinatus est , Succedinge no man is ordeined Bishop of him selfe . For by no meanes maye one haue or holde a Churche , that is not ordeined in the Churche .

This beinge so , we doo you no wronge , as ye complaine , in tellinge you and declaringe to the Worlde , that touchinge the exercise of your Ministerie , ye doo nothinge orderly , or comely , but al thinges troublesomely and without Order . Onlesse ye meane suche Order , and comelinesse , as Theeues obs●rue amonge them selues in the distribution of their Robberies .

Lastly , M. Hardinges modestie . if ye allowe not euery man , yea and euery Woman to be a Prieste , why driue ye not some of your felowes to recante , * * An odious Vntruthe : For touchinge the Ministerie of the Churche , wee haue neither Preached so , not written so . that so haue Preached ? Why allow ye the Bookes of your Newe Euangelistes , that so haue written ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here hath M. Hardinge taken some paines more then ordinarie . He thought , if he coulde by any coloure make the worlde beléeue , wee haue neither Bishoppes , nor Priestes , nor Deacons this daie in the Churche of Englande , he might the more easily claime the whole right vnto himselfe . And in déede , if it were certaine , that the Religion , and Truthe of God passeth euermore orderly by Succession , and none otherwise , then were Succession , whereof he hath tolde vs so longe a tale , a very good substantial Argumente of the Truthe . But Christe saithe , Matthael ▪ 23. In Cathedra Mosi sedent Scribae , & Pharisaei : By order of Succession , the Scribes , and Phariseis sitte in Moses Chaire . Annas , and Ca●p●as , touchinge Succession , were as wel Bishoppes , as Aaron , & Eleazar . Of Succession , S. Paule saithe to the Faithful at Ephesus : Actor . 20. Scio , qu●d post discessum meum intrabunt Lupirapaces . Ex Vobis ipsis exurgent viri peruersa loquentes : I knowe that after my departure hence , R●ueninge Woulues shal enter , and Succede me . And out of your selues there shal ( by Succession ) springe vp menne speakinge peruersely . Therefore S. Hierome saithe , Dist 40. Non est Facile . Non Sanctorum filij sunt , qui tenent loca Sanctorum : They be not alwaies the Children of Holy Menne , that ( by Succession ) haue the places of Holy Menne .

Notwithstandinge the Pope him selfe wil saie , as it is before alleged , In Papa si desint bona acquisita per merirum , Dist. 40. Non nos . sufficiunt , quae à Loci Praedecessore Praestantur : If the Pope wante good thinges gotten by his owne merites : the good thinges , whiche he hath ( by Succession ) of Peter his Predecessour , are sufficient . And the Glose thereupon , Petrus fecit Papas Haeredes bouitatis suae : Succession . Peter made the Popes Heires of his goodnesse by Succession . Dist 19. Sic Omn●● : In Gloss . And againe , Papa Sanctitatem recipit à Cathedra : The Pope receiueth his Holinesse ( by Succession ) of his Chaire .

Sutche affiance sometime had the Scribes , and Phariseis in their Succession . Therefore they saide , Iohan. 8. Iohan. 9. Wee are the Children of Abraham : Vnto vs hath God made his promises : Arte thou greatter then our Father Abraham ? As for Christe , wee knowe not , from whence he came , or what he can shewe for his Succession . And , when Christe beganne to refourme their Abuses , and Errours , they saide vnto him , By what Power dooest thou these thinges ? Lucae . 20. Mare . 11. Beda in Luc. Lib. 5. Ca. 80. Cyrill . in Cathena in Luc. 20. And who gaue thee this Authoritie ? where is thy Succession ? Vpon whiche woordes Beda saithe , Intelligi volunt , Diaboli esse , quod faci● : They woulde haue the People vnderstande ( for that he had no solemne Succession ) that al that he did , was of the Diuel . And Cyrillus frameth their woordes in this sorte : Tu Ortus ex Iuda commissos nobis fasces vsurpas : Thou beinge of the Tribe of Juda , ( and therefore hauinge no right by Succession vnto the Priesthoode ) takest vpon thee the office , that is committed vnto vs . Likewise Chrysostome imagineth , the Phariseis thus to saie : Chrysost. in Matthae . Homi. 39. Tu de Sacerdotali Familia natus non es : Senatus tibi hoc non coucessit : Caesar non donauit : Thou arte not of the house of Priestes : The Councel hath not graunted it thee : The Emperour hath not geeuen it thee . Thus to maineteine them selues in credite , for that they had Succession , and continuance from Aaron , and sate in Moses Chaire , they kepte Christe quite out of possession : and saide vnto him then , euen as M. Hardinge saithe nowe vnto vs : Who euer taught vs these thinges before thee ? What ordinarie Succession , and Vocation haste thou ? What Bishop admitted thee ? Who confirmed thee ? Who allowed thee ?

Therefore , good Christian Reader , lette not these M. Hardinges greate woordes mutche abasshe thee . The Scribes , and Phariseis in the like cases vsed the like language longe agoe .

Touchinge the Churche of Rome , I wil saie nomore for this presente , but onely , that was spoken openly by Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in the late Councel of Tridente : Cornel. Episco . Bitontin . in Concil. Triden . Vtinam non à Religione ad Superstitionem , à Fide ad Infidelitatem , à Christo ad Antichristum , velut prorsus Vnanimes declinassent : Woulde God they were not al gonne by consente togeather , from Religion to Superstition : from Faithe to Jufidelitie : from Christe to Antichriste . These fewe woordes , consideringe either the speaker , or the place , where they were spoken , maye seeme sufficient . They are gonne from Faithe to Infidelitie : from Christe to Antichriste . And yet al other thinges failinge , they muste holde onely by Succession : and , onely bicause they sitte in Moses Chaire , they muste claime the possession of the whole . This is the right , and vertue of their Succession .

The woordes of Tertullian , M. Hardinge , whiche you haue here alleged , were spoken of certaine your Ancient Fathers , that had raised vp a Newe Religion of them selues , as you haue also donne , without either Woorde of God , or example of the Apostles , and Holy Fathers . And therefore he saithe , not vnto vs , but vnto you , and sutche , as you be , Edant Origines Ecclesiarum suarum : Lette them shewe foorthe the Originalles of theire Churches . Euen so wée saie vnto you , shewe vs the Originalles of your Doctrine : Shewe vs any one of the Apostles of Christe , or of the Learned Catholique Doctours of the Churche , that euer saide your Priuate Masse : Shewe one at the leaste , either Greeke , or Latine . S. Augustine saithe , August . Epist. 165. of so many Bishoppes of Rome , there coulde not one be founde , that had benne a Donatiste . Euen so in like sorte saie wée to you , of al the same Bishoppes of Rome , there cannot one be founde , that euer agreed with M. Hardinge in saieinge Masse . Or if there were any sutche , shewe vs his name , with other Circumstances , when , and where , and who were witnesses of the dooinge . Shewe vs your Originalles , Succession ▪ Confirmation . M. Hardinge : Confesse the Truthe : Deceiue vs no lenger : It is a newe Diuise : ye haue it onely of your selues : and not by Succession from the Apostles .

But wherefore telleth vs M. Hardinge this longe tale of Succession ? Haue these menne their owne Succession in so safe Recorde ? Who was then the Bishop of Rome nexte by Succession vnto Peter ? Who was the Seconde ? Who the Thirde ? Irenae . li. 3. ca. 3. Euseb li. 5. cap. 5. Epiphan. L●b . 1. De Corpoerat . Optat. contra Donatist . lib. 2. Who the Fourthe ? Irenaeus reckeneth them togeather in this order : Petrus , Linus , Anacletus , Clemens : Epiphanius thus , Petrus , Linus , Cletus , Clemens : Optatus thus . Petrus , Linus , Clemens , Anacletus . Clemens saithe , that he him selfe was nexte vnto Peter : And then muste the reckeninge goe thus : Petrus , Clemens , Linus , Anacletus . Hereby it is cleare , that of the foure firste Bishoppes of Rome , M. Hardinge cannot certainely telle vs , who in order Succeded other . And thus talkinge so mutche of Succession , they are not wel hable to blase their owne Succession .

I might farther saie , that Peters See Apostolike was ouer the Iewes , and not at Rome ouer the Heathene . Calat . 2. For so S. Paule saithe , Mihi concreditum est Euangelium Praepuiij , sicut Petro Circumcisionis : Qui potens erat Petro in Apostolatu Circumcisionis , Potens erat in me inter Gentes : The Gospel of the Vncircumcision was committed vnto me , as the Gospel of the Circumcision vnto Peter : God that was mighty in Peter in the Apostleship of the Circumcision , was mighty in me emonge the Heathens . Therfore if the Pope this daie wil claime onely by Peters Title , and require nomore , then Peter had , then muste he séeke his Primacie emongst the Iewes , where Peter had his Iurisdiction limited , and not at Rome emonge the Heathen Christians , emonge whome , as S. Paule saithe , he had not mutche to doo .

Where you saie , that accordinge to the Ecclesiastical Canons , euer from the Apostles time , Bishoppes haue euermore benne Consecrate by three other Bishoppes , with the Confirmation of the Bishop of Rome , as if without him noman might be allowed to be a Bishop , ye shoulde not so vnaduisedly reporte so manifest Vntruthe . For , I beseche you , where be these Ecclesiastical Canons ? Who diuised them ? Who made them ? Who gaue the Pope that singulare Priuilege , that no Bishop shoulde be admitted in al the Worlde , but onely by him ? I remember , your Canonistes haue saide , Felin ▪ De Constitu . Ca. Canonum S●atuta . Colum. 6. Ver. Fallit . Papa potest Solo Verbo facere Episcopum : The Pope maye make a Bishop onely by his Woorde , without any farther Consecration . And Abbate Panormitane moueth a doubte , whether the Pope by the Fulnesse of his Power , maye depriue al the Bishoppes in the Worlde at one time . But thus they saie , that care not greatly , what they saie .

Verily , Panor . De Constitution . Translato . Nilus a Gréeke Writer saithe thus , Constantinopolitanus Caesa●iensem Episcopum , aliosque sibi subiectos ordina● : Romanus verò nec Constantinopolitanum , nec alium quenquam Metropolitanum : The Bishop of Constantinople doothe Order the Bishop of Caesaria , Nilus de Primatu Romani Pontificis . and other Bishoppes vnder him : But the Bishop of Rome doothe Order neither the Bishop of Constantinople , nor any other Metropolitane . But hereof I haue spoken more at large in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . Certainely S. Cyprian willeth , Artic. 4. Diu. 25. Cyprian . Lib. 1. Epist. 4. that Sabinus , beinge lawfully elected , and Consecrate Bishop in Spaine , should continewe Bishop stil , yea although Cornelius , beinge then Bishop of Rome , would not Confirme him .

In déede , touchinge euery Metropolitanes seueral Iurisdiction , Gratianus noteth thus : Dist 64. Cap. ●in . Illud generaliter clarum est , qu●d si quis praeter Sententiam Metropolitani fuerit factus Episcopus , hunc magna Synodus definiuit Episcopum esse non Oportere : This is generally cleare , that if any man be made Bishop without the consente of his Metropolitane , the greate Councel ( of Nice ) hath decreed , that sutche a one maye not be Bishop .

So likewise saithe Socrates of the Bishop of Constantinople : Confirmation . Consecration . Praeter Sententiam Episcopi Constantinopolitani Electio Episcopi ne fiat : Without the Consente of the Bishop of Constantinople let noman be chosen Bishop . Here is a right specially reserued to the Bishop of Constantinople , Socrates Lib 7. Cap. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and to euery Metropolitane within his owne Prouince : but of the Bishop of Romes Vniuersal right of Confirmation we heare nothinge . Neither doothe M. Hardinges Countrefeite Anacletus claime al the Bishoppes through the worlde , as belonginge to his Admission , but onely a parte . These be his woordes , Omnes Episcopi , qui huius Apostolicae Sedis Ordinationi subiacent : Ana●let . Episto . 3. Dist. 95. Iuxta Sanctorum . Al the Bishoppes , that are vnder the Orderinge , or Confirmation of this Apostolike See . So likewise writeth Damasus to the Bishoppes of Illyricum , Par est , omnes , qui sunt in Orbe Romano , Magistros consentire : It is meete , that al the Teachers within the Romaine Jurisdiction , Sozomen . Lib. 6. Cap. 23. should agree togeather .

Againe , that you saye , A Bishop hath alwaies benne Consecrate by other thrée Bishoppes , whether it be true , or no , it maye wel be called in question , as beinge of your parte hitherto very weakely affirmed . Surely Petrus de Palude , one of your owne Doctours , Petr. de Palude , De Potestate Apost●l . woulde haue tolde you thus : In Ecclesia Vnus Episcopus suff●cit ad alium Consecrandum : nec est , nisi propter Solennitatem ab Ecclesia inuentum , vt Tres concurrant : In the Churche One Bishop is sufficient to Consecrate an other : and it is nothinge els , but for the Solemnitie of the mater , that the Churche hath diuised , that Three Bishoppes shoulde ioine togeather . Likewise Ioha●●es Maior an other of your owne Doctours woulde haue saide vnto you , Iohannes Maior in . 4. Sen● . Dist. 24. q. 3. Quis Ordinauit Petrum ? Non dabunt Tres Ordinatores . Dico ergo , esse Constitutionem Humanam , qu●d Episcopus Ordinetur à Tribus . Paulus enim non quaesiuit Duos pro Ordinatione Titi , & Timothei : Who Ordered Peter , and made him Bishop ? They cannot shewe me Three Bishoppes that ordered him . Therefore I saie , that a Bishop be Ordered by other Three Bishoppes , it is an Ordinance made by Man . For Paule , when he Ordered Titus , and Timotheus , he sought not aboute for other Twoo Bishoppes .

Whereas it farther pleaseth you , to calle for my Letters of Orders , and to demaunde of me , as by somme Authoritie , whether I be a Prieste , or no : what handes were laide ouer me : and by what Order I was made : I answeare you , I am a Prieste , made longe sithence , by the same Order , and Ordinance , and , I thinke , also by the same Man , and the same handes , that you , M. Hardinge , were made Prieste by , in the late time of that moste Vertuous Prince Kinge Edward● the Sixthe . Therefore ye cannot wel doubte of my Priesthoode , without like doubtinge of your owne .

Farther , as if ye were my Metropolitane , ye demaunde of me , whether I be a Bishoppe , or no. I answeare you , I am a Bishop , and that by the Frée and accustomed Canonical Election of the whole Chapter of Sarisburie , assembled solemnely togeather for that purpose . Of whiche companie you , M. Hardinge , were then One , & , as I was enfourmed , beinge presente there in your owne personne emongest your Brethren , gaue free , and open consente vnto the Election . If you deite this , take heede , your owne breathe blowe not against you .

As for the impertinente tales of Ischyras , and Zacchaeus , they touche vs nothinge . They were none of ours : We knowe them not . Our Bishoppes are made in Fourme , and Order , as they haue benne euer , by Frée Election of the Chapter : by Consecration of the Archebishop , and other Three Bishoppes : and by the Admission of the Prince . And in this sorte , not longe sithence , the Pope him selfe was admitted : and , Platina in ●e●erino Papa . as Platina saithe , without the Emperours letters Patentes was no Pope : as hereafter it shal be shewed more at large .

Therefore wée neither haue Bishoppes without Churche , nor Churche without Bishoppes . Neither doothe the Churche of Englande this daie depend● of them , Succession . whome you so often calle Apostates , as if our Churche were no Churche without them . They are no Apostates , M. Hardinge : That is rather your owne name , and of good righte belongeth vnto you . They are for a greate parte learned , and graue , and Godly menne , and are mutche ashamed to see your folies . Notwithstandinge , if there were not one , neither of them , nor of vs leafte aliue , yet woulde not therefore the whole Churche of Englande fice to Louai●e . Tertullian saithe , Nonne & Laici Sacerdotes sumus ? Scriptum est , Regnum quoque , & Sacerdotes Deo , Tertullian . 〈◊〉 Exhorta . ad Castitatem . & Patri suo nos fecit . Differentiam inter Ordinem , & Plebem constituit Ecclesiae Authoritas , & honor per Ordinis Consessum Sanctificatus à Deo . Vbi Ecclesiastici Ordinis non est Consessus , & Offert , & T●●g●● Sacerdos , qui est ibi solus . Sed & vbi Tres sunt , Ecclesia est , licet Laici . Vnusquisque enim de sua Fide viuit : And wee beinge Laiemenne are wee not Priestes ? It is written , Christe hath made vs bothe a Kingedome , and Priestes vnto God his Father : The Authoritie of the Churche , and the Honour by the Assemblie , or Councel of Order Sanctified of God hath made a difference bitwene the Laie , and the Cleregie . Where as there is no Assemblie of Ecclesiastical Order , the Prieste beinge there alone ( without the companie of other Priestes ) doothe bothe Minister the Oblation , and also Baptize . Yea , and be there but Three togeather , and , though they be Latemenne , yet is there a Churche . For euery man liueth of his owne Faithe .

Againe , ye demaunde of me , what Bishoppe of Sacisburie euer sithence Augostines time maineteined this Doctrine . I might likewise , and by as good Authoritie demaunde of you , what Bishop of Rome euer before the same Englishe Augustines time maineteined your Doctrine ? Or , as I saide before , what Bishop of Rome euer before that time either saide , or knewe your Priuate Masse ? Touchinge the Bishoppes of Sarisburie , you your selfe haue already named twoo , Bishop Shaxton , and Bishop Capon , bothe Learned , and graue Fathers , and bothe Preachers , and professours of the Gospel . For the reste of the Bishops , that were before them , what Faithe they helde , and what they either liked , or misliked , by their writinges , or Sermons it dothe not greately appeare . I truste , they helde the Fundation , and liued , and died in the Faithe of Christe . If they had liued in these daies , and seene , that you see , they would not haue benne partakers of your wilfulnesse .

To be shorte , wée succede the Bishoppes , that haue benne before our daies . Wee are Elected , Consecrate , Confirmed , and Admitted , as they were . If they were deceiued in any thinge , wee succede them in place , but not in errour . They were our Predecessours , but not the Rules , and Standardes of our Faithe . Or rather , to sette aparte al comparison of Personnes , the Doctrine of Christe this daie , M. Hardinge , Succedeth your Doctrine : as the Daie Succedeth the Nighte : as the Lighte Succedeth Darkenesse : and as the Truthe Succedeth Errour .

Nowe for as mutche , as ye haue thought it so good , to examine the Petite degree of the Bishoppes of Sarisburie , I truste ye wil not thinke it il , if I al●tle touche the like in the Bishoppes of Rome : that wée maye thereby be the better hable to sée some of the branches of your Succession . Therefore shortly to saie , you knowe that Pope Marcellinus committed Idolatrie : that Pope Syluester . 2. was a Coniurer , and gaue him selfe whole Body , and Soule vnto the Diuel , and by the Diuels procuremente was made Pope : That Pope Zosimus for ambition , and claime of gouernmente corrupted the Holy Councel of Nice : That Pope Liberius was an Arian Heretique : That Pope Leo , as appeareth by the Legende , was likewise an Arian : That Pope Coelestinus was a Nestorian Heretique : Pope Honorius was a Monothelite Heretique : Pope Iohn . 22. was reprooued by Gerson , and the Schole of Parise for an Heretique : Petrarcha saithe , Rome is a Sanctuarie of al Heresies : Succession of Popes . Lyra saithe , that many Popes haue fallen into Heresies : Nicol. Lyra in Matthae . Ca. 16. you know , that Pope Hildebrande , as he was charged by the Councel of Brixia , was an Aduouterer , a Churcherobber , a Periured man , a Mankiller , a Sorcerer , and a Renegate of the Faithe : That Platina calleth the Popes sometimes in scorne , Platina in Romano . 1. Pontificulos , Litle Petite Popes : sometimes Monstra , & Portenta , Monsters , and Vnnatural , and il shapen Creatures . Pope Adrian the fourthe was woonte to saie , Succedimus , non Petro in pascendo , sed Romulo in Parricidio : Wee Succede , not Peter in Feedinge , but Romulus in Killinge . And to leaue Dame Iohane the woman Pope , with many others moe of like Vertue , and Holinesse , as hauinge no pleasure in this rehersal : And , for as mutche as M. Hardinge began this mater with Sarisburie , to ende it with the same , Iohan. Sarisburien . in Polycratico . Iohannes Sarisburiensis saithe , In Romana Ecclesia sedent Scribae , & Pharisaei : In the Churche of Rome ( by Succession ) sitte the Scribes , and the Phariseis .

This is M. Hardinges holy Succession . Though Faithe faile , yet Succession muste holde . For vnto sutche Succession God hath bounde the Holy Ghoste . For lacke of this Succession , for that in our Sees in the Churches of Englande , wée finde not so many Idolaters , Necromancers , Heretiques , Aduouterours , Church-robbers , Periured Personnes , Mankillers , Renegates , Monsters , Scribes , and Pharisies , as wée maie easily finde in the Churche of Rome , therefore , I trowe , M. Hardinge saithe , wée haue no Succession : wée are no Bishoppes : wée haue no Churche at al.

But S. Paule saithe , Faithe commeth ( not by Succession , but ) by hearinge : and hearinge commeth , ( not of Legacie , or Enheritance from Bishop to Bishop , but ) of the Woorde of God . They are not alwaies Godly , that Succede the Godly . Manasses succeded Ezechias : and Hieroboam succeded Dauid . By Succession the Turke this daie possesseth , and holdeth the foure greate Patriarkal Sées of the Churche , Constantinople , Alexandria , Antioche , and Hierusalem . By Succession , Christe saithe , Matthae . 24. Desolation shal fitte in the Holy place : and Antichriste shal presse into the roume of Christe .

It is not sufficient to claime Succession of place : It behooueth vs rather to haue regarde to the Succession of Doctrine . Bernard . in Concilio Remen . S. Bernarde saithe , Quid prodest , si Canonice eligantur , & non Canonicè viuant ? What auaileth it , if they be chosen in Order , and liue out of Ordere So saithe S. Augustine , August . Contra Donatist . Li. 6. 1. q. 3. vocantur Canes . Ipsum Characterem multi , & Lupi , & Lupis imprimunt : The outwarde marke , or right of a Bishop manie geue to Woulues , and he Woulues them selues . Therefore the Ancient Father Irenaeus geueth vs this good Councel : Eis , qui sunt in Ecclesia , Presbyteris , obaudire oportet , qui Successionem habent ab Apostolis , Irenae . Li. 4. Cap. 43. qui cum Episcopatus Successione , Charisma Veritatis certum , secundum beneplacitum Patris , acceperunt : It becommeth vs , to obeie those Priestes in the Churche , whiche haue their Succession from the Apostles : and togeather with the Succession of their Bishoprikes , accordinge to the good wil of God the Father , haue receiued the vndoubted gifte of the Truthe . S. Cyprian beinge likewise charged for dissentinge from his predecessours , answeareth thus : Si quis de Antecessoribus meis , non hoc obseruauit , & tenuit , quod nos Dominus exemplo , & Magisterio suo docuit , potest simplicitati eius venia concedi : Nobis ver● ignoici non potest , qui nunc à Domino admoniti , & instructi sumus : If any of my Predecessours haue not obserued , and kepte the same , that our Lorde hath taught vs bothe by his example , and also by his Commaundemente , his simplicitie maie be pardoned . But wee ( if wée doo the like ) can hope for no pardonne , beinge nowe admonished , and instructed of our Lorde .

Compare the vse , and order of our Churches , M. Hardinge , with the Primitiue Churche of God , and ye shal easily see the right of our Succession . S. Cyprian saithe : Confession not necessary . Si Canalis aquae , quae copiose prius , & la●g●●●r proflu●ba● , subit● deficiat , nonne adfontem pergitur ? &c. Hoc & nunc facere oporte● Dei Sacerdotes . Praecepta Diuina seruantes , vt in aliquo si nutauerit , Cyprian . ad Pompeium contra Epist. Stephani . & vacillauerit Veritas , ad originem Dominicam , & Euangelicam atque Apostolicam Traditionem reuertamur : & inde surgat actus nostri ratio , vnde & Ordo , & Origo surrexit : If the Pipes of the Conduit , which before ranne with abundance , happen to faile , doo wee not vse to searche to the Head : &c. The Priestes of God keepinge Goddes commaundementes , must do the same : that if the Truthe haue fainted , or failed in any pointe , wee returne to the very Original of our Lorde , and to the Tradition of the Gospel , and of the Apostles : that ther●hence wee maie take the discretion of our dooinges , from whence the Order it selfe , and Original firste beganne .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 1.

Moreouer wee saie , that Christe hathe geuen to his Ministers power to binde , to loose : to open , to shutte .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The difference , that is bitweene vs , and our Aduersaries in this whole mater , is not great : sauinge that it liketh wel M. Hardinge , to buste him selfe with néedelesse quarrels , without cause . Three kindes of Confession are expressed vnto vs in the Scriptures . The First made secretely vnto God alone : The Seconde Openly before the whole Congregation : The Thirde Priuately vnto our Brother . Of the twoo former kindes there is no question . Touchinge the thirde , if it be discretely vsed , to the greatter comforte , and satisfaction of the Penitente , without superstition , or other il , it is not in any wise by vs reproued . The Abuses , and Errours sette aparte , wée doo nomore mislike a Priuate Confession , then a Priuate Sermon .

Thus mutche onely wée saie , that Priuate Confession to be made vnto the Minister , is neither commaunded by Christe , Chrysost. ad Hebraeos , homil. 30. nor necessarie to Saluation . And therefore Chrysostome saithe , Non dico tibi , vt te prodas in publicum , neque vt te accuses apud alios : Sed obedire te volo Propherae dicenti , Reuela Domino viam tuam : I wil thee not to bewraye thee selfe openly , nor to accuse thee selfe before others : But I counsel thee , to obeie the Prophete saieinge , Open thy waye vnto the Lorde .

And Gratian , hauinge thorowly disputed , and debated the whole mater of bothe sides , De Poeniten di●● 1. Quamuit plenitudo . in the ende leaueth it thus at large : Cui harum sententiarum poti●s● adhaerendum sit , Lectoris iudicio reseruatur : Vtraque enim fautores habet Sapientes , & Religiosos Viros : Whether of these twoo opinions it were better to folowe , it is leafte to the discretion of the Reader : For either side is fauoured bothe by Wise , and also by Godly menne . Therefore the Glose there concludeth thus : De Poeniten . dist. 5. In Poenitentia ▪ In Glos . Meli●s dicitur , Confessionem institutam fuisse à quadam Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Traditione potiùs , quàm ex Noui , vel Veteris Testamenti Authoritate : It is better to saie , that Confession was Ordeined by somme Tradition of the Vniuersal Churche , then by the Authoritie of the Newe , or Olde Testamente . Likewise saithe Theodorus sometime Archebishop of Canturburie a Gréeke borne : De Poeniten . dist. 1. Quidam . Quidam Deo solummodò confiteri debe●e peccata dicunt , vt Graeci : Some saie , wee are bounde to confesse our sinnes onely to God , as doo the Greci●●s . De Poeniten dist. 5. In Poeniten . Whereupon the Glose noteth thus : Apud Graecos Confessio non est Necessaria : quia non emanauit ad illos Traditio talis : Emonge the Grecians Confession is not Necessarie , for that no sutche Tradition euer came emongest them .

But what neede many woordes ? M. Hardinge him selfe in the discourse hereof is forced to confesse , M. Har. soli . 71. ● that the Expresse Terme of Auriculare , or Secrete Confession is Seldome mentioned in the Ancient Fathers . His tale had benne truer , if he had saide thus , The Expresse terme of Auriculare , or Secrete Confession is Neuer mentioned in the Ancient Fathers .

Nowe to passe ouer certaine other M. Hardinges vnnecessarie talkes , hée groweth to the mater in this sorte :

M. Hardinge .

Concerninge the ministers of the Churche , wee saie that they open and shutte by dispensinge the Sacramentes , who haue theire vertue of the merites of Christe . For where as the Sacramentes haue issued and flowed out of the side of our sauiour Christe sleepinge on the Crosse , ( as by allusion wee maie vse the woordes of the olde figure ) wherewith the Churche is buylded , therefore in the Sacramentes of the Churche the efficacie of the Passion remaineth . And for that cause to the Ministers also of the Churche , The Keie of the Church . who be dispensours of the Sacramentes , a certaine power is geeuen to remoue the barre , that excludeth vs from Goddes fauour , not through their owne , but through Goddes vertue and power , and merite of Christes Passion . And this power is called by a metaphore the Keie of the Churche , whiche is the Keie of Ministerie : whereof we shal speake hereafter . This power , so muche as concerneth releasse of sinnes , is exercised in the Sacramente of Penaunce to the benefite of them , For whom serueth the Sacramente of Penance . Nouatians denied Penance . that after Baptisme be relapsed , and fallen into sinne againe . Of whiche power no Christen man doubteth , onlesse he holde the Heresie of the Nouatians , who were condemned for Heretikes by the Churche , because they denied that Priestes in the Churche had authoritie to remitte sinnes , * * This sauoureth of vntruth : For Nouatus denied not priuate , but open Penaunce . and so denied the Sacramente of Penaunce .

The B. of Sarisburie .

That dewly receiuinge the Holy Sacramentes ordeined by Christe , wée receiue also the Remission of Sinnes , it is not any way denied . For the Substance of al Sacramentes is the Woorde of God , 2. Corin. 5. whiche S. Paule calleth Verbum Reconciliationis , The Woorde of atonemente . This Woorde is the Instrumente of Remission of Sinne : The Sacramentes are the Seales affixed vnto the same : The Prieste is the meane . Augustin in Iohan. tracta . 〈◊〉 . S. Augustine saithe , In Aqua Verbum mundat . Detrahe Verbum : quid est Aqua , nisi Aqua ? In the Water it is the Woorde of God , that maketh cleane . Take the Woorde awaye : and what is Water els , but Water ? Hereof wée shal haue cause to saie more hereafter .

Al that is here brought in touchinge Nouatus , it is vtterly from the purpose . For Nouatus neuer denied , but a sinner might Confesse his Sinnes , either secretely to God alone , or publiquely , and openly before the whole Congregation . As for Auriculare Confession to the Prieste , for ought that maie appeare , he neuer heard of it . But herein stoode his whole erroure , that he thought , who so euer had committed any great notorious Sinne after Baptisme , notwithstandinge any Submission , or Satisfaction , he was hable to make , yet might he neuer be reconciled vnto his Brethren , or be receiued againe into the Churche : not that he would hereby driue the Penitent sorowful sinner to despaire of Goddes mercie , but ( as somme Learned menne haue thought ) onely for example , and terrour vnto others . And therefore Beatus Rhenanus saithe , B. Rhenanus in Argumento Libelli Tertull. de Poenitent. In hac sententia Veterum permulti fuerunt : & in ijs etiam Augustinus .

S. Augustine saithe , Caut● , salub●●terque prouisum est , vt locus illius Humilimae Poenitentiae semel in Ecclesia concedatur : ne medicina vilis minùs utilis esset aegrotis : I● hath benne discretely , Augustinus , Epistola . 54. and wholesomely prouided , that it should not be graunted to any man , to doo that moste humble Open Penaunce , but onely once in the Churche , and neuer more afterwarde : leaste the Medicine , beinge made ouer common , should not bee profitable to the Sicke .

Thus mutche difference therfore wee see , there was bitweene the Churche , and Nouatus . The Churche graunteth the Open Sinner one onely time of Open Reconciliation , and neuer more : But Nouatus graunteth none at al. Therefore the whole mater of Nouatus might haue serued M. Hardinge to some other purpose : For Confession , whether it were Priuate , or Publique , was no parte of his Erroure .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 2.

And ( wee saie ) that the office of Loosing consisteth in this pointe , that the Minister either by the Preachinge of the Gospel offereth the Merites of Christe , and ful pardon to sutche as haue lowely , and contrite hartes , and doo vnfainedly repente them selues , pronouncinge vnto the same a sure , and vndoubted forgeeuenesse of theire sinnes , and hope of Euerlastinge Saluation : Or els that the same Minister , when any haue offended theire Brothers mindes with somme greate offence , or notable , and open crime , whereby they haue , as it were , vannished , and made them selues straungers from the Common Felowship , and from the Body of Christe , then after perfite amendement of sutche personnes , dothe reconcile them , and bring them home againe , and restore them to the Companie , and Vnitie of the Faithful .

M. Hardinge .

The summe of all these gaye woordes abbridged dothe attribute Loosinge , or Absolution firste to Preachinge , nexte to Assotlinge sutche as be Excomminicate . As touchinge the firste , these Defenders confounde the offices of Preachinge and of Absolution . The Preacher teacheth the hearers , and reporteth the woordes of Christe , as out of the mouthe of Christe , saieinge , Thus saithe Christe &c : The Priest , whiche is the Minister of Absolution , accordinge to the Authoritie geuen to him by Christe , in his owne person assoileth the Penitente , saieinge , * * Vntruthe . For Christe neuer gaue the prieste any sutch Commission . I assoile thee in the name of the Father , &c. * * Vntruthe . For S Hierome saithe , Soluunt Sermone Dei , & testimoniis Scripturarum . The Preacher in that he preacheth onely dothe not assoile sinners , neither geueth he the Merites of Christe , nor full pardon by pronouncinge vnto them the Gospell . Vntruthe , By M. Hardinges owne Doctrine . Reade the Answeare . For if that greate benefite consiste in pronouncinge or denouncinge of the Gospell , then why might not euery laye man , yea womenne , yea yonge boyes , and gyrles assoile sinners ? yea why might not euery man assoile him selfe ? And woulde ye Sirs appointe vnto vs suche for iudges constituted by Christe ?

For the woordes of Christe be so plaine , as they cannot be so violently wrested . For Christe saide not , To whom ye offer by preachinge of the Gospel my Merites , and Pardon , or whose sinnes ye pronounce by the Gospell to be remitted , but quorumcunque remiseritis , who soeuers sinnes ye remitte , they are remitted to them . For as the sonne of man remitted sinnes to him that was sicke of the Palsye , Iohan. 20. and to Mary Maudelen , that ye maye knowe ( saithe he ) that the sonne of man hathe Power to remitte sinnes , Li. 3. de Dignitate Sacerdotali . &c : Euen so he hathe transferred The same power , bicause they haue the same woorde : and not otherwise . the same power vnto Priestes , saithe Chrysostome . Whiche Priestes he hathe sente , as the Father sente him . And if Absolution consiste in pronouncinge of the Gospell , whiche profiteth so muche as it is beleeued , * * Vntruthe . ioined with vaine Folie . then the power of the Keies whiche Christe hathe geuen to the Churche , consisteth not so muche in the Minister , as in the sinner that heareth and beleeueth , and so is forgeuen by Luthers Opinion . And by this meanes the Prieste hathe no speciall power . But wee saie with the Churche , that a Sacramente hath his efficacie of the institution of Christe in him , to whom it is adhibited . In this sense the Catholike Churche of Christe hath euer taughte , that God woorketh our Saluation by Sacramentes , and in this faithe it hathe alwayes baptized infantes , that their sinnes beinge remitted , they mighte be made the children of God Vntruthe . For the Churche assoiled not mad menne : but only pronounced them to be assoiled before , when they were sober . Like wise by the Keyes of the Churche it hathe assoiled personnes berefte of the vse of speache and reason , as the Learned and Auncient Holy Father Leo teacheth in his Epistle ad Theodorum Episcopum Foroiuliensem , and S. Augustine de adulterinis conlugijs , Lib. 1. Cap. 26. & vltimo .

Finally if the office of Loosinge , that is Absolution , consisted in Preachinge the Gospell , and offeringe the Merites of Christe by pronouncinge the woordes , in whiche the remission of our sinnes is expressed , as this Denfender teacheth : then had not the Catechumens of olde time , neither nowe shoulde they be in any danger , if they shoulde dye without Baptisme , and the grace of reconciliation , that is , not beinge assoiled . For they lacked no preachinge , as nowe they lacke not where any suche bee . The contrarie whereof the Churche hathe euer taught , and for witnesse of the same , Tract . in Iohan. 13. besides other fathers , wee haue the plaine Doctrine of S. Augustine : Who saithe , that a Catechumen , howe mutche so euer he profitethe , beareth still the burthen of his iniquitie so longe , as he is not baptized .

I denie not , but cases of iuste necessitie be excepted in the one , and the other , hauinge right and firme willes , and desire in eche case : When not the contempte of Religion , but the pointe of necessitie excludethe the Mysterie of baptisme , as S. Augustine saithe . Then how dangerous , and pernicious is the Doctrine of these Defenders our Newe Ministringe Prelates , who more with sweete and Holy woordes , then withe truthe , teache Christen people , that the office of Loosinge consisteth in offeringe by preachinge of the Gospell ( as they call it ) the Merites of Christe , and full pardon , and by pronouncinge ( I knowe not howe ) a sure and vndoubted forgeeuenesse of sinnes and hope of Euerlasting Saluation to suche , O dangerous Doctrine . for soothe , as haue lowly and contrite hartes , and doe vnfainedly repente them ? The contrition of harte , they seeme to speake of , sufficethe not for Loosinge of sinnes , onlesse it be contrition formed with charitie , as the Diuines teache . Whiche charitie , seeketh and requireth the Sacrament of Penaunce , and the grace of reconciliation . whiche cannot be ministred , but by a prieste . * * Vntruthe . Reade the aunsweare . Neither is it possible , the prieste to iudge truly , who are lowly and contrite of harte , and repente them vnfainedly , forasmutche as he cannot searche the harte , onlesse the penitentes humble them selues vnto him , and declare theire repentaunce by simple and lowly confession of their sinnes . Lib. 50. Homiliarum , Homi. 49. Whiche confession these Newe Gospellers haue abandoned out of theire Congregations . Howe mutche is more the Catholike and holesome Doctrine of S. Manifest Vntruthe For S. Augustine speaketh these woordes of Open Confession before the people . Augustine to be embraced and folowed , whiche he vttereth in these woordes ? Doo ye penaunce , sutche as is done in the Churche , that the Churche maie praie for you . Let noman saie to him selfe , I do penaunce secretely , before God I do It : God , who forgeeueth me , knoweth , that I doo it in my harte . But what saith S. Augustine hereunto ? Why then ( saithe he ) it was saide in vaine , What thinges ye Loose in Earthe , Mat. 18. they shal be Loosed in Heauen . Then without cause the Keies be geeuen to the Churche . We make voide the Gospell of God : wee make frustrate the woordes of Christe .

S. Augustine saithe , doo ye penaunce , not sutche as liketh your selues , not sutche as Newe fangled selfe pleasinge Preachers teache you , but sutche , as is done in the Churche , whiche consisteth in Contrition of harte , confession of mouthe , and satisfaction of worke , that so ye maie be assoiled , and perfitely reconciled .

Touchinge the seconde pointe , wee doo not attribute the Loosinge of sutche , as be excommunicate , to the offeringe of Christes Merites and pronouncinge of the Gospell vnto them , as you doo , but to the power of Iurisdiction by Christe geeuen to the Churche .

By the fathers Excommunication in consideration of the necessitee of it , is called neruus Ecclesiasticae disciplinae , the sinnowe of Churchely discipline : by the Canons , Mucro Episcopi , the swerde of a Bishop : by S. Augustine , Episcopalis iudicij damnatio , qua poena nulla in ecclesia maior est . The condemnation of a man by Bishoply Iudgemente , then the whiche there is no greater punishmente in the Churche .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée commit the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen onely vnto the Priesteand , to none other : and to him onely wee saie , What so euer thou bindeste in Earthe , shal be Bounde in Heauen . Yet neuerthelesse hath not euery Prieste the vse of these Keies . Peter Lombarde him selfe saithe , Sanè dici potest , quòd alteram istarum Clauium , Senten . 4. Dist. 19. id est Scientiam discernendi , non habent omnes Sacerdotes : Wee maie safely saye , that al Priestes haue not the one of these twoo Keies : I meane the Knowledge to discerne . Yf they haue not the Keies , them can they neither Open , nor Shutte .

Neither doothe it folowe of Our Doctrine , that either Children , or Laye menne doo , A Laiman remitteth Sinne . or maie forgéeue sinnes . And yet Gods Woorde maie be mighty , be the pronouncer of it neuer so simple . S. Augustine saithe , Cùm Christus Petro dicerer , Augustin . in Iohan. tracta. 124. Tibi dabo Claues Regni Coelorum , Vniuersam significabat Ecclesiam : When Christe saide vnto Peter , Vnto thee I wil geeue the Keies of the Kingdome of Heauen , he signified thereby the whole Churche . And againe , Quaecunque ligaueris super Terram , erunt ligara in Coelo . Augustin . De verb. Dom. Secund. matthae . Sermo. 16. Coepisti habere Fratrem tuum , tanquam Publicanum : Ligas illum in Terra . Cùm autem correxeris , & concordaueris cum Fratre tuo , soluisti illum in terra . Cùm solueris in terra , solutus erit in Coelo : What so euer thinges thou shalt Binde in Earthe , they shal be Bounde in Heauen . Thou ( beinge a Lateman ) hast begonne to haue thy Brother as a Publicane : Thou Bindest him in Earthe . But when thou hast corrected him and hast agreed with thy Brother , thou hast Loosed him in Earthe . And when thou haste Loosed him in Earthe , he shal be Loosed in Heauen .

Likewise Theophylacte saithe , Theophylact. in Matthae . Cap. 18. Si tu offensus habes eum , qui te affecit iniuria , sicut Publicanum , & Gentilem , erit ille & in Coelo talis : Si autem solueris eum , hoc est , Si illi condonaueris , erit illi & in Coelo condonatum . Non enim solùm , quae soluunt Sacerdotes , sunt soluta : sed quaecunque & nos iniutia affecti vel ligamus , vel soluimus , & ipsa erunt ligata , vel soluta : If thou beinge offended , haue him , that hathe donne thee wronge , as a Publicane , and as an Heathen , sutche shal he be also in Heauen . But if thou Loose him , that is to saie , if thou pardonne him , he shal be pardonned also in Heauen . For not onely the thinges , that Priestes Loose , are Loosed : but also what so euer wee , ( being Laimonne ) hauinge taken wronge , doo Binde , or Loose , the same thinges shal also be Bounde , or Loosed .

This Doctrine maie not séeme so strange to M. Hardinge : Onlesse he be a stranger emongest his owne . For by the Order of his owne Churche of Rome , an Olde wife , or a Yonge gyrle maie Minister the Sacramente of Baptisme . And , I trowe , he wil not saie , They maie Minister Baptisme without Remission of Sinnes .

In his Churche of Rome the Power of the Keies is lapped vp oftentimes in a Bulle of Lead , and sente abroade into the world by a Laye Pardoner : and is thought neuerthelesse good , & sufficient vnto the Receiuer for Remission of Sinnes . notwithstandinge the messenger be no Priest .

Somme of the late Doctours of his saide Churche haue taught vs , De Poeniten . di● 1. Quem poenitet . that a man maie make his Confession by a bille of his hande : and receiue Absolution by a Trusheman , or by a Broker . Peter Lombarde the Grande Maister of theire whole Schole saithe , Scotus , 4 Senten. Dis. 17. Arti. 3. Senten . 4. Dis. 17. Nunc priusquam . Si tamen defuerit Sacerdos , Proximo , vel Socio est facienda Confessio : If thou wante a Prieste , thou muste make thy Confession vnto thy neighboure , or vnto thy felowe . And Beda saithe , as he is alleged by the saide Peter Lombarde , Coaequalibus quotidiana , & leuia : grauiora verò Sacerdoti pandamus : Let vs open our smal , and daily sinnes vnto our felowes : and the greatter vnto the Prieste .

And to be short , Senten . 4. Eadem Dist. vpon the Decretales it is noted thus , In necessitate Laicus potest , & Audire Confessiones , & Absoluere : In case of necessitie a Laie man maie bothe heare Confessions , and Absolue .

This is the Order , Extra . De offi. Iudicis ordinar. Pastoralis . In Glossa . and Doctrine of M. Hardinges owne Churche . His owne Doctours tel him , that Laye Menne , and Wéemenne maie Absolue the Penitente , and Forgeeue Sinnes . Therefore hée hathe the lesse cause to mislike it .

M. Hardinge saithe further , Christe saithe not , To whom ye offer by preaching of the Gospel my Merites and Pardonne : or , whose sinnes ye pronounce by the Gospel to be remitted : but , Quorumcunque remiseritis , whose so euer sinnes ye remitte , they are remitted . Yf M. Hardinge wil Conclude of this Negatiue , Ergo , Sinnes be not forgeuen by the preachinge of the Gospel , Sinnes Remitted bi hearing the word of God . I trowe , it wil be but a Simple Argumente . For Chrysostome saithe , Clauicularij sunt Sacerdotes , quibus creditum est Verbum Docendi , & Interpretandi Scriptutas : The Keiebearers be the Priestes , to whom is committed the Woorde of Teachinge and Expoundinge the Scriptures . And S. Hierome saithe , Chrysost. in Matthae . in Opere Imperfect . ca. 23. Quaecunque Solueritis super Terram , erunt Soluta & in Coelo . Soluunt autem eos Apostoli Sermone Dei , & testimonijs Scripturarum , & exhortatione virtutum : What so euer thinges ye Loose vpon Earthe , they shal be Loosed also in Heauen . But the Apostles Loose them by the Woorde of God , and by the Testimonies of the Scriptures , and by exhortation vnto vertue . Hierony . in Esai . Li. 6. Ca. 14. Augustin . in Iohan. tracta. 80.

Likewise S. Augustine saithe , Iam vos Mundi estis propter verbum , quod Ioquutus sum vobis . Quare non ait , Mundi estis propter Baptismum , quo loti estis ? Nisi quia & in Aqua Verbum Mundat : Now are you cleane bicause of the Woorde , that I haue spoken to you . Why saithe he not , you are cleane bicause of the Baptisme , wherewith ye are wasshed ? Sauinge that euen in the Water , it is the Woorde , that maketh Cleane . Likewise S. Ambrose , Ambrosi . De Cain , & Abel . Cap. 4. Roman. 1. 2. Corin. 5. Remittuntur peccata per Verbum Dei , cuius Leuites est Interpres : Sinnes be forgeeuen by the Woorde of God , the Expounder whereof is the Leuite , or Prieste .

Al the Power is in the Woorde of God , whiche S. Paule calleth the Power of God vnto Saluation : and , Verbum Reconciliationis : The Worde , whereby wee be Reconciled vnto God .

And for this cause Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. De Sacerdot . Li. 3. as it is alleged by M. Hardinge , that the Prieste hathe the same Power that Christe had : For that he Preacheth the same Woorde of God , that Christe Preached . And in this sense Christe saithe vnto his Disciples , Iohan. 6. As my Liuinge Father sente me , euen so , ( and with like Commission ) doo I sende you .

Otherwise the Power of Christe farre surmounteth , and passeth al Creatures , not onely in Earthe , Matthae . 11. but also in Heauen . Christe him selfe thereof saithe thus : Al thinges are deliuered to me of my Father , And the Prophete Esai saithe , Ponam Clauem Domus Dauid super humerum eius . Aperiet , & nemo Claudet : Claudet , & nemo Aperiet : Esai . Cap. 22. I wil set the Keie of the House of Dauid vpon his shoulder . Hee shal Open , and noman shal Shutte : Hee shal Shutte , and noman shal Open.

Of this Doctrine , saithe M. Hardinge , foloweth a greate inconuenience . For then , saithe he , the Power of the Keies consisteth not so mutche in the Minister , as in the Sinner , that heareth , and beléeueth . This inconuenience is nothinge so greate , as it is pretended . The errour hereof standeth in the Equiuocation , or doubtful taking of one Woorde . For one thing maie be in an other sundrie waies . As Remission of Sinnes maie be in the Prieste , as in the Messenger : In the Woorde of God , as in the Instrument : In the Penitente partie , as in the Receiuer . The offeringe hereof is in the Minister : but the effecte , and force is in the Sinner . Therefore S. Luke saithe , God Opened the Harte of the Silck woman , that she should geue Eare vnto the woordes , Act. 16. Marke . 16. 4. Sent. Dist. 18. Sed quaritur . Clemens , in Paraenetico . Augustin . in Iohan. tracta. 39. that were spoken by S. Paule . And Christe saithe , Who so euer shal Beleeue , and be Baptized , shal be saued : but he , that beleeueth not , shal be damned . Likewise Peter Lombarde him selfe saithe , Ex his apertè ostenditur , quo'd Deus ipse Poenitentem soluit , quando intus illuminat inspirando veram Cordis Contritionem : Hereby it plainely appeareth , that God him selfe Looseth the Penitente , when by geeuinge him in warde lighte , hee inspireth into him the true Contrition of the Harte . And therefore Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , Fides nostra est Clauis Regni Coelorum : Our Faithe is the Keie of the Kingedome of Heauen . And S. Augustine likewise saithe , Cor Clausum habent , quia Clauem Fidei non habent : They haue theire hartes shutte , bicause they lacke the Keie of Faithe . Augustin . in Psalm . 101. Againe he saithe , Suscitari mortuus , nisi int●is clamante Domino , non potest : The deade man cannot be raised againe , onlesse the Lorde Crie within him . Absolution of Madde menne .

And , to comme neare to the pourpose , Gratian him selfe saithe , Voluntas Sacerdotis nec prodesse , 1. quaes . 1. Dictum est . nec obesse potest : sed meritum benedictionem poscentis . The wil of the Prieste can neither further , nor hinder : but the Merite of him , that desireth Absolution .

Touchinge the Obiection of Frantique Personnes , and maddemenne , in what sorte , and howe farre Absolution taketh place in them , for as mutche , as it is an extraordinarie case , Extra . De Baptismo , & etus Effectu . Maiores ecclesiae . §. Item quaeritur . I thinke it neither needeful , nor easy to define . In deede a question is moued by Pope Innocentius the thirde , whether , and in what sorte a man , either in his maddenesse , or in his sleepe maye be Baptized . And S. Augustine seemeth to witnesse , that Children sommetime were Baptized in theire Mothers Wombe . Likewise he writeth of a fréende of his owne , Cùm iaceret sine sensu in dolore laetali , Augustin . Contra Iulian. Li. 6. Cap. 5. & desperaretur , Baptizatus est nesciens : Whereas hee laye in a Traunse , without sense , in deadly paine , and was despaired of , hee was Baptized , and knewe not of it .

Bonauentura addeth somme force vnto the mater , Augustin . Confession . Li. 3. Cap. 4. and demaundeth this question , An aliquis possit absolui inuitus : Whether a man maie be Absolued againste his wil , or no.

But concerninge the Absolution of madde menne in the time of theire phrenesie : Bonauenturae in 4. Senten . Distin. 18. quaest. 6. It seemeth , this was bothe the meaninge of Leo , and the Godly discretion of the Churche at that time , that if a man standinge Excommunicate had happened to be berefte of his senses , and beinge in that case , had benne likely to departe this life , vpon proufe of his former repentance , he should be restoared , that he might departe in peace , as a Member of the Churche of God . The practise hereof wée finde in the Councel of Carthage by these woordes : Si is , Concil. Carthaeginen . 4. Cap. 76. qui Poenitentiam in infirmitate petit , in Phrenesim versus fuerit , dent testimonium , qui eum audiuerunt , & accipiat Poenitentiam : If he , that desired reconciliation by Penaunce in his sicknesse , afterward fal Madde , let them , that hearde him , beare witnesse with him : and so let him receiue Penance .

This was onely a publike Testimonie vnto the Churche , that the partie Excommunicate was repentante before , when his minde was quiet . And what thinge els M. Hardinge can geather hereof , I cannot tel . Certainely in this Order , and manner they restoared , not onely Madde menne , but also deade menne vnto the Churche . 24. quae . 2. De Communione . In Glossa . For so it is noted vpon the Decrées : Ex quo , cùm per eum non stabat , el communicare debemus . Et ita est absoluendus post mortem : Wherefore seeinge there was no lacke in his parte , wee ought to Communicate with him . And so he muste be Absolued after his deathe .

The woordes , that S. Augustine often vseth vnto Beginners , or Entrers of the Faithe , called Catechumeni , are vttred rather for terrour of others , then for rigoure of Truthe , Augustin . De Peccator . Meritis , & Remiss . Li. 2. Cap. 26. Augustin . ad Catechumen . Li. 2. Cap. 1. as shal appeare . For otherwheres he writeth thus : Catechumeni secundum quendam modum per Signum Christi sanctificantur : The Catechumeni , or Beginners , after their sorte , are sanctified by the Signe of Christe . Againe he saith to them , Non dum renati estis : sed per Crucis Signum in vtero Sanctae Matris Ecclesiae iam concepti estis : Ye are not yet borne a newe , but by the Signe of the Crosse , ye are already conceiued in the Wombe of the Holy Churche your Mother .

Therefore hauinge thus once entred into the Faithe of Christe , although they happened afterwarde to departe this life without Baptisme , yet the Churche oftentimes thought it good , Ambrosi . De Obitu Valentiniani . to Iudge wel of them . S. Ambrose doubted not , but the Emperour Valentinian departed hence in Goddes fauoure : And yet was the same Emperoure but a Beginner , and a Nouice in the Faithe , and departed hence without Baptisme .

M. Hardinge saithe further , The Iudge of Sinne . Onlesse the Penitente make particulare rehearsal of al his sinnes , the Prieste , or Minister can be no Iudge . Where vnto I adde also further , Augustin . Confession . Li. 10. Cap. 3. Notwithstandinge any rehearsal that maye be made , yet can the Prieste neuer be , but a doubteful Iudge . S. Augustine saithe , Quid ergo mihi est cum Hominibus , vt audiant Confessiones meas , quasi sanaturi sint Omnes Languores meos ? Vnde sciunt , cùm à meipso de meipso audiunt , an verum dicam ? Quandoquidem nemo scit Hominum , quid agatur in Homine , nisi Spiritus Hominis , qui est in Homine . What haue I to doo with menne , that they should heare my Confessions , as if they weare bable to beale al my griefes ? When they heare me speake of mee selfe , how can they tel , whether I doo saie the truthe , or no ? For noman knoweth , what is donne in Man , but the sprite of Man , that is in Man .

How be it , hereof haue growen many vnnecessarie , and curious questions , what Yeeres , Beat. Rhenanus in Tertull. De Poenitentia : Vt Sacerdotes Poenitentialem Librum bene calleant . what Monethes , what Daies , what Houres , what Manner , what Order of Penance should serue for euer seueral sinne . In Resolution of whiche doubtes stoode the Iudgement of the Prieste . And therefore Carolus Magnus in in his Lawes straitely commaundeth , that the Priestes should be skilful in the Booke of Penance .

But , as touchinge the Iudge of Sinnes , S. Chrysostome saithe , Ante Deum confitere peccata tua . Apud Verum Iudicem cum Oratione delicta rua pronuntia : Confesse they sinnes before God . Chrysost. ad Hebrae . Homil. 31. Chrysost. in Sermo . De Confessione & Poenitentia . Before the True Iudge with praier pronounce thine offenses . And againe , Cogitatione fiat delictorum exquisitio : Sine Teste sit hoc Iudicium : Solus te Deus confitentem uideat : Let the examination of thy sinnes be wrought in thy Harte : Let this Iudgement be Without Witnesse : Let God Onely heare thee , when thou makest thy Confession . And againe he saithe , Medicinae locus hîc est , non Iudicij : non poenas , sed peccatorum Remissionem tribuens . Deo Soli dic peccatum tuum : Chrysost. Homil. 9. De Poenitentia . Heere is place of Medicine , and not of Iudgement : geuinge not punishement , but Remission of Sinnes . Open thy sinne to God Alone .

And therefore in M. Hardinges owne Canons it is noted thus , Confessio fit ad ostensionem Poenitentiae : De Poeniten . dis. 1. Omnes qui. non ad impetrationem veniae : Confession is made ( vnto the Prieste ) not thereby to obteine forgeuenesse , but to declare our repentance . And againe , Confessio Sacerdoti offertur in Signum veniae acceprae : non Causam Remissionis accipiendae : Confession is made vnto the Prieste in token of remission already obteined : In eod. Capite . and not as a cause , whereby to procure Remission .

And yet is the Prieste a Iudge , al this notwithstandinge : and pronounceth sentence as a Iudge , of Doctrine , of Open Sinne , of the Offence of the Churche , and of the Humilitie , and Heauinesse of the Penitent : and as a Iudge , togeather with the Elders of the Congregation , hath Authoritie , bothe to Condemne , and to Absolue . 4 Senten . dist. 18. Non autem . Peter Lombarde him selfe saithe , Etsi aliquis apud Deum sit solutus , non tamen in facie Ecclesiae solutus habetur , nisi per indicium Sacerdotis : Al be it a man be Absolued before God , yet is be not accoumpted Absolued in the face of the Churche , but by the Iudgemente of the Prieste .

Likewise saithe S. Augustine , Augustin . De Ecclesiasti . dogmatib . li. 1. ca. 53. Horror pritis publica Poenitentia satisfacere , & Sacerdotis Iudicio reconciliatum Communioni sociari : I exhorte you first to make Satisfaction ( vnto the Churche ) by open penance : and so to be restoared to the Communion by the discretion of the Prieste .

The order hereof , Cyprian . Li. 3. Epist. 15. as it is set foorthe by S. Cyprian , was this : Firste the Sinner by many outwarde gestures , and tokens shewed him selfe to be penitent , and sorowful for his sinne : After that he made humble Confession thereof before the whole Congregation , Origen . in Psal. 37. and desired his brethren to praie for him : Lastly the Bishop and the Cleregie laide theire handes ouer him , and so reconciled him . So saithe Origen , Qui lapsus est , procedit in medium , & Exomologesin facit : He that hathe offended , commeth foorthe into the middes ( of the People ) and maketh his Confession . Sozomenus likewise describinge the same Order saithe thus , Open Confession . Rei ad terram sese pronos abijciunt cum planctu , & lamentatione . Episcopus ex aduerso occurrit cum Lachrymis , Sozomen . Li. 7. Cap. 16. & ipse ad Pauimentum lamentando prouoluitur : & vniuersa Ecclesiae multitudo Lachrymis suffunditur : They , that haue offended fal downe flat with weepinge , and lamentation to the grounde . The Bishoppe commeth to him with teares , and him selfe likewise falleth downe : and the whole multitude of the Churche is powred ouer and ouer with teares .

I vse the moe woordes herein , for that the whole mater is longe sithence growen vtterly out of vse . Notwithstandinge this is the Confession , and Penance , that S. Augustine speaketh of . Of Open Confession , M. Hardinge , hee saithe , The Keies were not geeuen to the Churche in vaine . Of Open Confession hée saithe , What so euer ye Loose in Earthe , shal be Loosed in Heauen . Of Open Confession he speaketh al these woordes : and not of any Auriculare , or Priuate dealinge . Yf M. Hardinge happen to doubte hereof , let him looke better vpon his Bookes . There shal he finde , euen in the verie same place , he hathe alleged , these woordes partely goeinge before , Augustin in Li. 50. Homiliarum , Homil 49. partely folowinge : Agite Poenitentiam , qualis agitur in Ecclesia , vt oret pro uobis Ecclesia : Iob dicit , Si erubui in conspectu populi confiteri peccata mea : Propterea Deus uoluit , vt Theodosius ageret Poenitentiam publicam in conspectu populi : Nolite permittere Viros vestros fornicari : Interpellate contra eos Ecclesiam : Doo Penaunce , sutche as is donne in the Churche , that the Churche maie praie for you : Iob saithe , I was not ashamed in the sight of al the people to confesse my sinnes : Therefore God would , that Theodosius ( beinge the Emperoure of the worlde ) should doo Open Penaunce euen in the presence of al the people . Ye wiues , suffer not your Husbandes to liue in fornication : Comme before the Congregation , and crie against them .

This is the Confession , that S. Augustine speaketh of : not Secrete , or Priuate , or in the Eare : but Publique , and Open , and in the Sight , and Hearing of al the people . Ambros . De Poenitentia , Li. 2. Ca. 10. In like manner saithe S. Ambrose , Multos necesse est vt ambias , & obsecres , vt dignentur interuenire . Fleat pro te Mater Ecclesia , & culpam tuam Lachymis lauet : Thou muste needes humble thee selfe , and desire many to intreate for thee . Let the Churche thy Mother weepe for thee : and let her washe thy offence with her teares .

This therefore , M. Hardinge , was no plaine dealinge , with sutche sleight to turne Publique into Priuate : and the Open audience of the whole people , into one onely mannes secrete eare : and so mutche to abuse the simplicitie of your Reader . Certainely these woordes of S. Augustine , Open Penaunce : Confesse Openly : In the sight of al the people : That the whole Churche maie praie : these woordes , I saye , wil not easily serue to proue your pourpose , for Priuate Confession .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 3.

Wee saie also , that the Minister doth execute the Authoritie of Binding and Shutting , as often as he shutteth vp the Gate of the Kingdome of Heauen against vnbeleeuing , and stubborne persons , denouncing vnto them Gods vengeaunce , and Euerlasting punishment : Or els when the dooth quite shut them out from the bosome of the Churche , by open Excommunication . Out of doubte , what sentence so euer the Minister of God shal geue in this sorte , God him selfe doth so wel alowe it , that what so euer here in Earthe by theire meanes is Loosed and Bounde , God him selfe wil Loose , and Binde , and confirme the saine in Heauen .

M. Hardinge .

* * Vntruthe . For we coufounde them not . Heare againe you confounde the Power of Bindinge and the office of Preachinge , as you did before speaking of the power of Loosinge . Whereto wee saye , as wee saide before of that other , that Bindinge and Shuttinge consisteth not in denouncinge of Goddes engeaunce , but in the exercise of the Keie of Iurisdiction committed to the Churche . The Ministers whereof Binde sinners , whom for iust cause they Loose not , but knowe that they are not to be loosed . And to that Keie perteineth excommunication , and by the same it is exercised .

What so euer by them is thus Loosed or Bounde in Earthe , God him selfe alloweth for loosed and bounde in Heauen . * * Vntruthes , fiue togeather , as maie further appeare by the answeare . Suche Priestes because ye 1. haue not in your Newe Churche , at least after this wise 2. vsinge Priestly Auctoritie . 3. and none wil suffer to be made , 4. nor suche Auctoritie to be exercised : ye 5. defraude the faithful people of the greate benefite of the Sacrament of penaunce , kepinge them faste bounde to their sinnes after baptisme committed . And so ye cause their Euerlasting Damnation , for whom Christe hath shed his Bloud , the Price of their Redemption .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée Confounde not these Keies , M. Hardinge , but speake plainely , and distinctely of either other . Wée saie , that the Power , as wel of Loosinge , as also of Bindinge standeth in Gods Woorde : and the exercise , or execution of the same standeth either in Preaching , or els in Sentence of Correction , and Ecclesiastical Discipline .

Of the later hereof , there is no question : of the former , M. Harding pronounceth precisely , although , as it appeareth , not moste aduisedly : Bindinge , saithe he , and Shuttinge standeth not in denouncinge of Goddes Vengeaunce . And hereof he certainely assureth vs , as of a most vndoubted Veritie . How be it , in so saieinge , he séemeth not to consider the Power , and Weight of the Woorde of God .

Christe him selfe saithe , Iohn . 12. If any man shal heare my Woordes , and shal not Bèleèue , I condemne him not . He that refusethe me , and receiueth not my Woordes , hath one , that condemneth him . The Woorde , that I haue spoken , is it , that shal Iudge him at the last daie . Like wise saithe S. Paule , 2 Corin. 2. We are the good sauour of Christe in them , that be saued , and in them , that perishe . Vnto them that perishe , wee are the sauoure of Death vnto Deathe : In them that be saued , 2 Corin. 4. wee be the sauour of Life vnto Life . And againe , If the Gospel be hidden , it is hidden from them , that perishe . So saith God vnto the Prophete Ezechiel , If thou geue warninge to the wicked , Ezechiel . 3. and he wil not be turned from his wickednesse , he shal perishe in the same . Yet haste thou discharged thine owne soule .

To be shorte , Augustin . epist 49 ad Deogratias . The whole Scriptures are ful hereof . And therefore S. Augustine saithe , Praedicatur Euangelium , quibusdam ad praemium , quibusdam ad Iudicium : The Gospel is Preached , to somme vnto rewarde , to somme vnto Iudgemente .

For the rest , M. Hardinge saithe , Suche Priestes bicause ye haue not in your Newe Churche , at leaste after this wise vsinge Priestly Auctoritie , and none will suffer to be made , and suche Auctoritie to be exercised , ye defraude the faitheful people of the great benefite of the Sacramente of Penance , keepinge them fast bounde to theire sinnes after Baptisme committed : And so ye cause theire euerlastinge Damnation , for whom Christe hathe shead his Bloud , the Price of their Redemption .

These great woordes are not very wel seasoned : They are bigge in sounde , and smal in weight : they are ful of terroure , and voide of witte . For the Churche of Englande hath Authoritie this daie by Goddes Woorde to Binde , and Lose , as mutche as euer Christe gaue any to his Apostles : And by the same Authoritie is hable to Binde , not onely M. Hardinge , and his Felowes , as Peter bound Simon Magus , Sinne forgeuen without Confession . or as Paule bounde Elymas the False Prophet : but also the Pope himselfe , if he be an Open Offender : and , as S. Paule saithe , to deliuer him ouer vnto Sathan : And vndoubtedly beeinge so Bound in Earthe , he shal also stande Bounde in Heauen .

Our People remaine not Bounde , nor perishe in theire sinnes , as these menne so vncharitably , and fondly haue imagined . They be so certaine of the Remission of theire sinnes in the Bloude of Christe , as if Christe himselfe were presente , and spake it to them . 1. Iohan. 1. Actor . 4. They are taught , and knowe that The Bloude of Christe , the Sonne of God hath made vs cleane from al our sinnes : and , that there is no name vnder Heauen , whereby wee shal be saued , but onely the name of Iesus Christe .

As for Priuate Confession , Abuses , and Errours set aparte , as it is saide before , wée condemne it not , but leaue it at libertie . And therein wée maie séeme to folowe the aduise of Charles the Emperoure in his late Interim : Interim Caroli 5. anno . 1548. For thus he writeth , Confessio , & Peccatorum Enumeratio , vt non nimis laxanda est , ita uicissim non nimis est astringenda .

Touchinge the Priestes of your makinge , M. Hardinge , of whom ye séeme to make so great accoumpte , 4. Senten . dist. 19. Post . your owne Peter Lombard saith of them , as it is saide before , Sané dici potest , quòd alteram Clauem , id est , Scientiam discernendi multi Sacerdotes non habent . Bonauent . 4. Senten . dist. 18. quae. 1. e. And in like manner saithe your owne Bonauentura , Omnes ferè ita sunt Simplices , & Idiotae post susceptionem Sacerdotij , ficut antè : Al Priestes for the most parte are as Simple , and Vnlearned after the receiuinge of Orders , as they were before .

But be it graunted , that your Priest be fully furnished with al his Keies . Yet is it not he , De Poeniten . dist. 1. Quis aliquando . that by any his Authoritie forgeueth sinnes . Your owne Gratian saithe , Euidentissime datur intelligi , quòd sine Confessione Oris Peccata possunt deleri : It is euidently geeuen vs to vnderstande , that without Confession of mouthe , Sinnes maie be forgeeuen . De Poenit. dist. 1. Conuertimin● . And againe , Ore tacente , veniam consequi possumus : Though wee saie nothinge , yet wee maye haue pardonne . Againe , Luce clariùs constat , Cordis Contritione , non Oris Confessione , Peccata dimitti : It is apparente , and more cleare then the light , that Sinnes be forgeeuen by Contrition of the Harte , and not by Confession of the mouthe . And againe , Dominus ostendit , quòd non Sacerdotali iudicio , sed largitate Diuina Peccator mundatur : Our Lorde hathe taught vs , that the sinner is made cleane , not by the Iudgement of the Prieste , but by the Mercie of God .

Thus , M. Hardinge , it is plaine by the Iudgemente of your owne Doctours , that , were your Auriculare Confession quite abolished , yet might the People notwithstandinge haue ful Remission of theire Sinnes . But of you it maie he verified , that Christe saide vnto the Phariseis : Luk. 11. Ye haue taken awaye the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen : And neither doo ye enter your selues , nor wil your suffer others , that would enter . Veselus , de Subditis , & Superiorib . Of your Keies Veselus saide longe sithence , Claues Papae , & Praelatorum non aperiunt Regnum Dei , sed claudunt potiùs : The Popes , and the Prelates Keies doo not Open the Kingedome of God , but rather Shutte it .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 1.

And touchinge the Keies , wherewith they maie either Shutte or Open the Kingdome of Heauen , wee with Chrysostome saye , They be the Knowledge of the Scriptures : with Tertullian we saie , They be the Interpretation of the Lawe : and with Eusebius wee cal them the Woorde of GOD .

M. Hardinge .

The let , The woord is the Keie . where by the whole Nature of man is shutte out of Heauen by the sinne of our Firste Parent , is taken a wait by the Passion of Christe . But because before that benefite be receiued . Heauen yet remaineth shutte bothe for sinne Originall contracted , and sinne actual committed : wee haue neede of the Sacramentes , and Keies of the Churche .

The Holy Fathers for good considerations grounded vpon Scripture , haue diuided the Keies into the Keie of Order , and the Keie of Iurisdiction : And either of them into the Keie of Knowledge , whiche they call also the Keie of Discretion , and into the Keie of Power .

To these Defenders wee saie , that they confounde the Keies , and seme not to knowe , what the Keies are . Verely these be not onely the knowledge of the Scriptures , nor the Interpretation of the lawe , nor the Worde of God , although these also doo open or shute the Kingedome of Heauen in their kinde , as Chrysostome , Tertullian , and Eusebius maye well saye : and not onely these , but also Miracles , and Plagues , and all other thinges , whiche prepare the will , or vnderstandinge of man , whereby hee maye receiue the benefite of those moste principall Keies , that nowe wee speake of .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Gentle Reader , for the better vnderstandinge hereof , it may please thée to consider , that the Woorde of God , according to the sundrie effectes , and properties thereof , hath sundrie names . For example . For that it encreaseth , and multiplieth , it is called Seede : For that it cutteth the Harte , and diuideth the Fleash from the Sprite , it is called a Swerde : For that it taketh , and encloseth vs , and bringeth vs togeather , it is called a Nette : For that it wassheth vs cleane , it is called Water : For that it Enflameth vs , it is called Fire : For that it Féedeth vs , it is called Breade . And euen so , for that it openeth , and geueth vs an entrie into the House , it is called the Keie . This House is the Kingedome of Heauen : Christe is the Doore : the Woorde of GOD is the Keie .

For thus saieinge , M. Hardinge telleth vs , Wee confounde maters , and séeme not to knowe , what wée saie . Notwithstandinge herein we imagine nothinge of our owne , but onely reporte the very Woordes , and Sentences of the Ancient Learned Catholique Fathers .

Tertullian saithe , Tertull. contra Marc●on . Li. 4. Quam Clauem habebant Legis Doctores , nisi Interpretationem Legis ? What Keie had the Doctours of the Lawe , sauinge the Exposition of the Lawe ? S. Hierome saithe , Duces Ecclesiae habent Claues Scientiae , vt aperiant Scripturas creditis sibi Populis . Hieromy . in Esaiam . Li. 6. ca. 24. Vnde praecipitur , vt Magistri aperiant , & Discipuli ingrediantur : The Captaines of the Churche haue the Keies of Knowledge , to open the Scriptures vnto the People to them committed . Therefore Commaundement is geuen , that the Maisters should open , Ambros . De Cain . & Abel . Li. 2. and the Scholars shoulde enter . S. Ambrose saithe , Remittuntur peccata per Dei Verbum , cuius Leuites est Interpres : Sinnes be forgeuen by the Woord of God , the Expounder whereof is the Priest .

Thus these , and other like Ancient Fathers haue opened the meaninge of these Keies . Chrysost in Matthae . Homil. 44. And yet were they neuer therfore condemned of ignorance , as menne , that wiste not , what they saide . Certainely Chrysostome saithe , Clauis est Scientia Scripturarum , per quam aperitur Ianua Veritatis : The Keie is the knowledge of the Scriptures , whereby is opened the gate of the Truthe . And S. Augustine saithe , Clauis est dicenda , Augusti . De Sanctis , Homil. 27. qua ad Fidem pectorum dura reserantur : That ought to be called the Keie , where with the hardnesse of mennes hartes is opened vnto Faithe .

Here hath M. Hardinge wel multiplied , and encreased his Keies , and hathe brought vs foorthe a whole bunche of them altogeather : Multiplication of Keies . The Keies of Orders : The Keies of Iurisdiction : The Keies of Discretion : The Keies of Power : The keies moste Principal , and the Keies not so principal . And thus hath he keies of Order without Iurisdiction , and keies of Iurisdiction without Order : keies of Discretion without Power , & keies of Power without Discretion . And al these prety shiftes of keies hath he diuised , to auoide Confusion : and , to make vp his tale , as if the Popes Crosse Keies were not sufficient , Plagues , and Miracles , and , I knowe not what thinge els , are brought foorthe vnto vs in the likenesse of Keies . And this distinction , and limitation of Keies , saithe he , hath vpon good considerations benne diuised by the Holy Fathers . And yet of al these Holy Fathers , for modesties sake , he nameth none .

What answeare were it beste to make to sutche Vanities ? In deede , when the right Keie of Knowledge was loste , and gonne , it was time to diuise some other pretie Pikelockes to woorke the feate . Bonauentura hereof writeth thus , as it is partely alleged before : Bonauen. 4. Sentent . Dist. 18. Quae. 1. E. Omnes ferè Sacerdotes ita sunt simplices , & idiotae post susceptionem Sacerdotij , sicut anté . Dicendum ergo , quòd Scientia non est Clauis Principalis , nec per se , sed prout iuncta est Authoritati Ligandi , vel soluendi . Et haec Clauis non est de Esse Ordinis , sed de bene esse : Al Priestes , for the moste parte , are as simple , and as iude after the receiuinge of Priesthoode , as they were before . Therefore we must saie , that Knowledge is not the Principal Keie , not any Keie at al of it selfe : but as it is ioined with the Authoritie of Bindinge , or Loosinge . And this Keie ( of Knowledge ) is not of the Substance of the Order of Priesthoode , but of the better beinge of the same . And therefore , to encrease M. Hardinges number of Keies , he saithe , Quidam habent Scientiam Clauium : Eodem loco . quidam Clauiculam : quidam nullam : Somme haue the Knowledge of the Keies : somme a pretie litle Keie : somme no Keie at al. In this case it were good for M. Hardinge to resolue his Reader , when the Prieste hath nothinge els but a Pretie litle Keie , or no Keie at al , what Authoritie he hath , either to Open , or to Shutte .

M. Hardinge replieth farther , Wee haue Remission of Sinnes in the Ministration of the Sacramentes : Therefore wee haue it not onely by the hearinge of the Woorde of God . This Obiection touched , and partely answeared a litle before . S. Augustine calleth the Sacramentes , Augustin . contra Faustum , Li. 19. Cap. 16. Verba Visibilia : Woordes Visible : for that in them , as in liuely Images , the Deathe of Christe is sensibly sette before our eies . For the woorde of God is the Substance , and Life of al Sacramentes : and without the same , Sacramentes , what so euer , are no Sacramentes . And therefore S. Augustine saithe . as it is alleged before , August . in Iohan . Tracta. 80. Quare non ait , vos mundi estis propter Baptismum , quo lot● estis : Sed ait , propter Verbum , quod locutus sum vobis ? Nisi quia & in Aqua Verbum mundat . Detralie Verbum : & quid est Aqua , nisi Aqua ? Why saithe not Christe , you are cleane bicause of the Baptisme , wherewith ye are wasshed : But , Bicause of the Woorde , that I haue spoken to you ? Sauinge for that , it is the Woorde , that cleanseth in the Water . Take the Woorde awaie : and what is Water els , but Water ?

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 2.

Moreouer that Christes Disciples did receiue this Authoritie , not that they should heare the Priuate Confessions of the people , & listen to their whishperinges , as the common Massinge Priestes doo euerywhere nowe adaies , and doo it so , as though in that one point laye al the Vertue , and vse of the Keies : but to the ende , they shoulde Goe , they should Teache , they should Publishe abroade the Gospel , and be vnto the Beleuinge a sweete Sauour of Life vnto Life : and vnto the Vnbeleuinge , and Vnfaitheful a Sauour of Deathe vnto Deathe : and that the mindes of Godly persons beinge brought lowe by the remorse of theire former Life and errours , after they once begonne to looke vp vnto the Light of the Gospel , & beleue in Christe , might be opened with the Woorde of God , euen as a dore is opened with a Keie . Contrarie wise , that the Wicked , and wilful , and sutche as would not beleeue , nor returne into the right way , should be leafte stil as faste locked , 2. Timoth. 3. & shutte vp , & , as S. Paule saithe , waxe woorse , and woorse . This take wee to be the meaninge of the Keies : and that after this sorte mennes Consciences be either opened , or shutte .

M. Hardinge .

Here ye Harpe muche vpon one stringe , whiche so iarreth in the eares of the Hearers , as your confuse Harmonie can like noman , onlesse he be a Minstrel of your owne Secte . The Auctoritie and power of the Keies consisteth not altogeather , nor Principally in Preachinge , or pronouncinge of the Gospel , as already we haue proued . What maye wee iudge of you ? procedeth this of Malice , or of Ignorance , that thus ye confounde the Keies , the Powers , and the Ministeries ?

Preachinge is one thinge , to gouerne the Churche is an other , to remitte and reteine sinnes is an other , to distribute the Sacramentes is an other . Dothe not S. Paule in cleare woordes speake Seuerally , and distinctly of Ministeries , 1. Corin. 1. where he saithe , that he was not sent of Christe to Baptise , but to Preache the Gospel ? This Doctrine of yours , whereby ye confounde the Keies , Powers , and Ministeries , dothe not onely obscure the Scriptures , and bringe the people to greate errours : but also vnder pretence of a loue towarde preachinge of the Gospel , leadeth them into contempt of the Sacramentes , and specially of the Sacrament of Penaunce , without which , if after Baptisme we haue sinned , ( not beinge letted by case of necessitie , wherein Wil , Desire , and Vowe is accepted ) * * Vntruthe , as by the Answeare maye further appeare . we can not attaine to Saluation . As you folow Caluine your Maister in this and sundrie other false , and perilous Doctrines , so it is to be feared , if your wicked temeritie be suffered to proceede , that at length hauinge brought al Religion to bare Preachinge , ye wil abandon al the Sacramentes of the Churche , as thinges not necessarie . For so that wicked Maister of yours teacheth : Caluines wicked doctrine againste the Sacraments . That , where Christes death maye be remembred otherwise , there * * A greate vntruthe , ioined with a sclaunder . Reade the Answeare . al the Sacramentes be Superfluous . And that I seeme not to sclaunder him . I remitte you to his Commentaries vpon the firste Epistle of S. Paule to the Corinthians , where expoundinge these wooordes , Doo this in my remembraunce , he saithe thus : The Supper is a token of remembrance ordeined to lifte vp , or helpe our infirmitie : for if otherwise we were mindeful inoughe of Christes deathe , this helpe ( he meaneth the Blessed Sacrament of the Aultar ) were superfluous , whiche is common to al the Sacramentes , for they be healpes of our infirmitte . Lo , by Caluines Doctrine , if we remember the deathe of Christe , bothe the Euchariste , and al other Holy Sacramentes be voide , and Superfluous . And then , because no other thinge bringeth to our remembrance the Deathe of Christe , more then Preachinge , to what purpose serue al the Sacramentes ?

Thus these Defenders with their Maister Caluine haue founde a shorter waie to Heauen , then was knowen before .

In an other place he seemeth to derogate muche of the necessitie of Baptisme of Christen mens Children . Contra Interim . Where he saithe , that by reason of Gods promise the issue whiche commeth of Faitheful parentes , * * These be not M. Caluines woordes , but S. Paules : Filij vestri Sancti sunt , 1. Corin. 7. is borne Holy , and is a Holy Progenie , and that the children of suche , beinge yet enclosed in the wombe , before they drawe breathe of life , be neuerthelesse chosen into the couenaunt of life euerlastinge . This doctrine , when it shal take place , as by you Defenders it is sette in a good furtherance , what shal we looke for , but that the necessarie Sacrament of Baptisme ( without whiche who is to be compted a Christen man ? ) and the moste Blessed , and confortable Sacramente of the Aultar , and the Holesome Sacrament of Penance , Quid ● Coelum ruat ? and Absolution , and the reste of the Sacramentes , shal be nomore esteemed and vsed , then nowe ye esteeme , and vse the Masse , Holy Breade , and Holy Water ? This beinge once brought to passe , shal not the people easely be induced either to receiue Mahometes Religion , or somme other , as farre from God , as that is : or to allowe the pleasant trade of life of the * * Otherwise called the Romaines . Epicureans , the moste parte beinge already thereto inclined , and no smal number wel entread ?

But to returne againe to the Keies , whiche seme to you to haue no force ne vse but in Preachinge : First , as touchinge the scorneful scoffer vttered by you , Sir Defender , in Latine , and by your interpreter in Englishe , againste Priuate Confessions , and against the Ministers of the Churche appointed by God for grace of reconciliation to be imparted to penitentes : your light mockinge sprite deliteth your selues not so muche , as it pitieth vs to see you bothe so faste bounde in Satans fetters . Nexte concerninge Confession * * Vntruthe . For it is not required of necessitie , as shal appeare . necessarely required to the vse , and power of the Keies , whiche you speake of at your pleasure , thus we saye accordinge to the Scriptures : Amonge sundry effectes , for whiche Christe gaue the Keies to the Apostles , and their Successours , this is one , that by Power of them they should remitte , Mat. 16. & 18. and reteine Sinnes , as himselfe saide , Whose sinnes ye remitte , they are remitted vnto them : and whose sinnes ye reteine , they are reteined , Vntruthes , two togeather . See the Answeare . But sinnes can not duely be remitted or reteined , onlesse they be knowen to him , Iohan. 20. that hath auctoritie thereto : and knowledge of sinnes ( specially suche as are priuie ) can not be had of man , who can not see into the harte of man , ● but by Confession of the sinner : Wherefore consequently it foloweth , that they receiued this auctoritie to heare the Confession of Christen people desirous to be assolted , and reconciled .

Wherefore the Confession , yea of Secrete sinnes , is necessary to Saluation by * * Vntruthe . For M. Hardinges owne Doctours saie , It was ordeined by Tradition , and not by Christe . th institution of Christe . For in that he instituted the ende , he instituted also the meanes , whiche shoulde be necessarie to the obteininge of the ende : onlesse we woulde make Christe our Lawemaker to haue failed his Churche in thinges necessarie . That sinnes can not either be remitted , or reteined , excepte the Prieste knowe them , Mat. 16. Comment. in Mat. 16. we are bolde so to saye with the Fathers , and specially with S. Hierome , who so * * Vntruthe , In mistakinge , and abbridginge S. Hieromes woordes . vnderstoode the woordes of Christe : where he promised the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen to Peter . Sacerdos pro officio suo cùm peccatorum audierit Varietates , scit qui ligandus , sit qui Soluendus : The Prieste ( saithe he ) when as accordinge to his office he hath hearde the diuersities of sinnes , knoweth who is to be bounde , who is to be loosed . Right so as in the time of Moses lawe he pronounced not , who was cleane of Lepre , who was not , before that he had vewed the colour , the bunches , and al other tokens of that disease . And thus it foloweth of the woordes of Christe , that Confession of al Sinnes , at leaste deadly , muste be made to the Prieste , before they can be remitted . Whiche Prieste is the Minister of this Sacramente , and hath auctoritie to absolue , either Ordinarie , or by Commission of the Superiour .

Againe , for proufe that Confession is necessarie , wee sate , that to remitte and reteine sinnes committed againste God , as to binde and to loose , be iudicial actes . And therefore by these woordes Christe ordeined a Courte , This Consistorie stoode sometime in Excommunication , sometime in Preachinge . a Consistorie , a seate of Iudgemente in the Churche , and appointed the Apostles and their Successours to be Iudges . And that this maye appeare not to be a fantasie of our owne heades , S. Augustine so expoundeth those woordes of S. Iohn in his Reuelation : Et vidi ledes , &c. And I sawe seates , and some sittinge on them , and iudgement was geuen . We muste not thinke ( ●aithe he ) this to be spoken of the laste iudgement , but we muste vnderstande the Seates of the Rulers , and the Rulers themselues , by whome nowe the Churche is gouerned . And as for the Iudgement geuen , it semeth not to be taken for any other , then for that , whereof it was saide , What thinges yee binde in Earthe , they shal be bounde also in Heauen : and what thinges ye loose on Earthe , they shal be loosed also in Heauen . Sundrie other Fathers haue vttered in their writinges the same Doctrine . In Mat. Cap. 16. Hilarius vpon the sixtenth Chapter of Matthewe saithe , Beatus Coeli ianitor , &c. Blessed is the Porter of Heauen , whose earthly iudgement ( that is to saie , whiche is geuen here on Earthe ) is a foreiudged auctoritie in Heauen , that what thinges be bounde , Li. 1. Epi. 2. De dignit . sacerd. li. 3. or loosed in Earthe , they haue the condition of the same Statute also in Heauen . S. Cyprian hath the like sayinge in an Epistle to Cornelius . Chrysostome saithe , that Christe hath translated al iudgemente , whiche he receiued of the Father , vnto the Apostles , and Priestes . Gregorie Nazianzene in an Oration to the Emperour and his Princes , saithe to the Emperour , Ouis mea es , & nos habemus Tribunalia : This saieinge perteineth , no● to Confession , but to the Authoritie of Gods woorde . Thou arte my Sheepe , and we haue our seates of iudgement . S. Gregorie the Pope compareth the Sacrament of Penaunce with a courte of Iustice , in which causes be first examined and tried , and afterwarde Iudged . That the same is to be donne by the Prieste . S. Bernarde sheweth : Who , as also the learned Father Hugo de S. Victore , be not afraide to saie after S. Cyprian , Hilarie , and Chrysostome , that the sentence of Peter remittinge Sinnes , goeth before the sentence of Heauen . This Ordinance of Christe requireth , that al. Trespasses , Offences , Disorders , Transgressions , and Sinnes committed against him and his Lawes , be referred to this Consistorie .

Whether these Defenders allowe Publike Confession , or no , we knowe not : but whereas they inueigh against Priuate Confession , and saie in spiteful woordes , which they haue learned in the Schole of Satan , beinge lothe the Sinnes of the People , whereby he holdeth his Kingdome , shoulde be remitted , that Christes Disciples receiued not the auctoritie of the Keies , that they shoulde heare priuate Confessions of the People , and listen to their whisperinges : We tel them that Confession of al deadly Sinnes is of the * * Vntruthe . As it is prooued before . Confession grounded vpon Natural Reason . Institution of God , not of Man . But concerninge the maner of confessinge secretely to a Prieste alone , it is moste agreable to Natural Reason , that secrete Sinnes be confessed secretely

A vaine forgerie . Clement amongest those thinges that he acknowledgeth him selfe to haue receiued of Peter , this is One , as he writeth in his firste Epistle translated by Rufine the Prieste : That , if it fortune either enuie or Infidelitie priuely to crepe into any mans harte , or any other like euil : he whiche regardeth his Soule , be not ashamed to confesse those thinges to him , that is in Office ouer him , to the ende that by him , through the woorde of God , and holesome counsel , he maye be healed . So as by perfite Faithe and good woorkes he maye escape the paines of euerlastinge fire , and come to the rewardes of Life that endureth for euer . No man speaketh more plainely of Secrete Confession * * Vntruthe . For he speaketh onely of open Confession . then Origen , and that in sundry places , to whiche for Breuities sake I remitte the Reader . In. 2. Ca. Leuitici , Homil. 2. De Principijs , Lib. 3. In Psal . 37. Homil. 2. Where he compareth the state of a sinner to a man , that hath euil and vndigested humours in his Stomake . And saithe that as by remaininge of suche euil matter , the man feleth him selfe very sicke , and by vomitinge of it foorthe , he is eased : so the sinner by keepinge his sinnes secrete , is the more greuousely charged in his owne conscience , and standeth in daunger to be choked with the Fleume and humour of his sinnes . But if he accuse him selfe , and confesse his faultes , he bothe vomiteth foorthe his sinnes , Al this belongeth to open Confession . and digesteth the cause of the same . S. Cyprian as in many other places , so moste plainely speaketh of Secrete Confession . Sermone . 5. de lapsis . Although ( saithe he of certaine deuoute persons ) they be entangled with no greate Sinne , Confession of euil thought . yet because at leaste they thought of it , the same vnto the Priestes of God Confesse they sorowfully and simply . They make Confession of their Conscience , they laie foorthe the burthen of their minde , &c.

S. Augustine treatinge of the Power of the Keies in many places , but specially of Confession in Psal . 60. Where speakinge muche of the necessitie of Confession , he saithe thus : Why fearest thou to be Confessed ? If not beinge Confessed thou remaine hidden , not beinge Confessed thou shalt be damned . And afterwardes thus : To this ende God requireth Confession , to deliuer the humble : to this ende he damneth him that confesseth not , to punishe the Proude . Therefore be thou sorie before thou be Confessed : beinge Confessed , Reioyse : thou shalt be hole .

By these and many other Holy Fathers , of whome there is no doubte , but they had the Holy Ghoste for their Teacher and prompter of al Truthe , the Catholike Churche hath benne persuaded , that the recital and rehersinge of * * Vntruthe : Reade the Answeare . al sinnes before the Prieste is necessarie to Saluation : onlesse necessitie for lacke of a Prieste or other wise , exclude vs from it : and that a Vntruthes , many , and manifeste , as shal appeare . General Confession in no wise suffiseth . True Faithe acknowlegeth , that Confession is to be made of al ● Sinnes , as ● commaunded by Christe , and the Apostles , commended to vs by the ● Fathers of the Primitiue Churche , by al ● learned Doctours , and general vse of the ● whole Churche . And if the expresse terme of Secrete or auricular Confession be * * Vntruthe . For it is neuer founde . Otherwise let him shewe it . Seldome mentioned in the Auncient Fathers , as that of Publike Confession is often times , as in the Nicene Councel , and in sundry other places : that is nothinge repugnant to the Doctrine of the Catholike Churche .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Al this greate shewe of Authorities of Fathers , and Doctours , M. Hardinge him selfe in the ende dischargeth easily with one Woorde . For , notwithstandinge al , that be coulde best diuise to saie herein , his Conclusion at the laste is this , The Expresse Terme of Secrete , or Auriculare Confession is Seldome mentioned in the Ancient Fathers . Seldome , he saithe , as if it were sometimes vsed , although but Seldome . But if he had leafte , Seldome , and saide , Neuer , I trowe , his tale had benne the truer .

For the reste , wée saie , as before : Wée make no Confusion of the Keies . Our Doctrine is plaine , that there be twoo Keies in the Churche of God : The one of Instruction , the other of Correction . Whereof the one woorketh inwardly , the other outwardly : The one before God , the other before the Congregation . And yet either of these standeth wholy in the Woorde of God . And therefore S. Paule saithe , 2. Timoth. 3. Omnis Scriptura Diuinitùs inspirata vtilis est ad Doctrinam , ad Redargutionem , ad Correctionem , ad Institutionem , &c : Al Scriptures inspired from God are profitable , To teache the Truthe : To reprooue Falsehedde : To correcte the Wicked : To Nourtoure , and infourme the Godly .

Of the Former of these Keies S. Paule saithe , Actor . 16. Beleeue in the Lorde Iesus : and thou shalt be safe , with al thy House .

Of the other he saith . 2. Corinth. 10. The Weapons of our warfare are not Fleashely : but mighty through God , to throwe downe holdes , castinge downe euery Highe thinge , that is builded vp againste the knowledge of God , and to bringe al vnderstandinge captiue to the Obedience of Christe .

This Doctrine séemeth to be simple , and plaine , and without Confusion .

Touchinge M. Caluine , it is great wronge , vntruely to reporte so Reuerende a Father , and so Woorthie an Ornamente of the Churche of God . If you had euer knowen the order of the Churche of Geneua , & had séene foure thousande people , or moe receiuinge the Holy Mysteries togeather at one Communion , ye coulde not without your great shame , & wante of modestie , thus vntruely haue published to the worlde , that by M. Caluines doctrine , the Sacramentes of Christe are Superfluous . Certainely to leaue al , that he hath otherwise spoken of the Sacramentes in general , Of the Sacramente of Christes laste Supper he writeth thus : Magnum Consolationis , Institution . Cap. 18. 2. ac suauitatis fructum ex hoc Sacramento colligere possunt piae animae : quòd illîc Testimonium habeant , Christum sic nobis adunatum esse , sic nos illi vicissim insertos , adeoque in vnum Corpus cum ipso coaluisse , vt quicquid ipsius est , nostrum vocare liceat : The Godly mindes maye take greate fruite of pleasure , and Comforte of this Sacramente : for that therein they haue a witnesse , that Christe is so made one with vs , and wee so graffed into him , and are so growen bothe into one Bodie , that what so euer is his , wee maie nowe calle it ours .

But he saithe , The Supper is a token of remembrance , to lifte vp , or to healpe our infirmitie . For if otherwise we were mindeful yenough of Christes Deathe , this healpe were Superfluous .

O M. Hardinge , howe farre maie malice beare a man ? Bicause M. Caluine saithe , Wée are weake , and haue néede of out warde Sacramentes , to quicken the dulnesse of our Senses , saithe he therefore , that the Sacramentes be Superfluous ? If he had likewise saide , Our bodies be weake , and haue néede to be refreashed with Meate , and Drinke , would ye geather thereof , that Meate , and Drinke are Superfluous ? Nay contrariewise he concludeth , Wee haue neede of Sacramentes : Therefore Sacramentes be needeful : and the greatter our weakenesse is , the more néede haue wée of sutche remedies . His woordes emongst many others of like sense be these : Sic est exigua nostra Fides , Institution . Cap. 16. 3. vt nisi vndique fulciatur , atque omnibus modis sustentetur , statim concutiatur , fluctuet , vacillet : So smal is our Faithe , that onlesse it be borne vp of euery side , and by al meanes be mainteined , it shaketh , it wauereth , and is like to falle .

If this be so dangerous a Doctrine , as you telle vs , why then are the Ancient Catholique Fathers suffered to holde and maineteine the same ? Dionysius , whome you so often calle S. Paules Scholar , writeth thus , Eclesiast . Hicrarch . Cap. 1. Nos imaginibus sensibilibus , quantum fieri potest , ad Diuinas adducimur Contemplationes : Wee , as mutche as maie be , by Sensible Images , or Sacramentes are brought vnto Diuine Contemplations . Likewise S. Augustine saithe , In Quaestion . Vet. Testamen . Sacramenta propter Carnales Visibilia instituta sunt : vt ab illis , quae oculis cernuntur , ad illa , quae intelliguntur , Sacramentorum gradibus transferamur : Visible Sacramentes are ordeined for Carnal Menne : that by the steppes of Sacramentes we maie be leadde from the thinges , that wee see with eie , vnto the thinges , that wee vnderstande . Cap●ian . De Coena Domini . Chrysost. ad Pop●l . Antiochen . Homil. 60. So saithe S. Cyprian , Fidei nostrae infirmitas Symboli argumento edocta est , &c. The weakenesse of our Faithe is taught by the vnderstandinge of the Sacramente , &c. So S. Chrysostome , Si incorporei essemus , nuda , & incorporea nobis haec ipsa daret . Nunc quia Corporibus insertas habemus animas , sub visibilibus spiritualia tradit : If wee were Bodilesse , God woulde geue vs these thinges bare , and Bodilesse . But for as mutche , as wee haue Soules fastened vnto our Bodies , therefore God geueth vs thinges Spiritual vnder thinges Visible . Chrysost in Matthae . Homil. 22. Againe he saithe , Rectis , & Fidelibus Scripturae non sunt Necessariae , dicente Apostolo , Lex iustis non est posita : To the Godly , and Faithful the Scriptures are not Necessarie : For so the Apostle saithe , There is no Lawe prouided for the Iuste . And againe , Oportuerat quidem nos nihil indigere auxilio Literarum , sed tam nudam in omnibus vitam exhibere , Chryso . in Matthae . Homi. 1. vt Librorum vice Gratia Spiritus vteremur : It behooued vs to haue no neede of the Scriptures : but in al thinges to shewe our Liues so pure , and cleane , that in steede of Bookes wee mighte vse the Grace of the Holy Ghoste . Hieron . in Pro●●mio in Lamen . Hieremiae . In like manner S. Hierome saithe , Cùm meruerimus esse cum Christo , & similes Angelis fuerimus , tunc Librorum Doctrina cessabit : When wee shal obteine to be with Christe , and shal be like vnto the Angels , then the Doctrine of Bookes shal geue place .

Nowe tel vs , M. Hardinge , muste wee hereof conclude , as you doo , that these Holy Fathers , S. Cyprian , S. Augustine , S. Hierome , S. Chrysostome , helde false , & perillous Doctrines , & with wicked temeritie woulde abandonne bothe Scriptures , and Sacramentes , as thinges not Necessarie ? Certainely for ful resolution hereof , M. Caluine him selfe saithe thus , Iohan Caluinus in Antidoto ad 7. Sessionem Cōcisij Tridentini . Facilè patior , vt , quae Christus nobis dedit , Salutis adiumenta , eorum vsus Necessarius dicatur : quando , scilicet , datur facultas . Quanquam Semper admonendi sunt Fideles , non aliam esse cuiusuis Sacramenti Necessitatem , quàm Instrumentalis Causae , cui nequaquam alliganda est Dei vittus . Vocem sanè illam nemo pius est , qui non toto pectore exhorreat , Sacramenta res esse Superfluas : I can wel suffer , that what so euer healpes of Saluation Christe hath geuen vs , the vse thereof be coumpted Necessarie : I meane , when we maye haue oportunitie , and time to vse them . How be it thus mutche the faitheful muste be warned , that the Necessitie of any Sacramente is none otherwise , but as of a Cause Instrumental : vnto whiche Cause wee maye not in any wise binde the Power of God . But that the Sacramentes be thinges Superfluous , no Godly man can abide to heare it .

Where you further charge M. Caluine , for saieinge , The Children of the Faithful are borne Holy , ye shoulde rather herewith haue charged S. Paule . For thus he saithe , 1. Corinth. 7. Nunc Liberi vestri Sancti sunt : Nowe are your children Holy . Ye should haue remembred , M. Hardinge , that these be S. Paules woordes , and not M. Caluines . His meaninge is , that the Children of the Faitheful , notwithstandinge by Nature they be the Children of Anger , yet by Goddes Frée Election they be Pure , and Holy . This is S. Paules vndoubted Doctrine : Whiche notwithstandinge , be neuer neither despised the Sacramentes of Christe , nor leadde the people ▪ as you saie , to Mahomete , or Epicure .

Here at the laste , M. Hardinge , to returne , as he saithe , to his Keies , first beginneth with the spiteful woordes , and scorneful scoffes , and light Sprite of Sir Defender : whiche , he saithe , he learned in the Schoole of Sathan , & nowe lieth bounds in Sathans fetters .

To answeare al s●tche M. Hardinges vanities , it were but vaine . Wise menne wil not greatly weigh these childishe Tragedies .

But he saithe , The Prieste holdeth a Consistorie , & is a Iudge ouer the sinnes of the People . But beinge a Iudge he cannot discerne Sinnes , onlesse he knowe them . Neither can he knowe them , but by Confession . Therfore , saithe M. Harding , Wee tel them , Institution . Venial . that Confession of al Deadly Sinnes is of the Institution of God : and not of Man . Mary , he saithe , touchinge the manner of Confession , secretely to the Priest alone , it is moste agréeable to Natural Reason , that secrete Sinnes be Confessed secretely .

Here , I beseche thée , good Christian Reader , note this one thinge by the waye : M. Hardinge , contrarie to common order , hathe brought vs the Institution of God without any manner Woorde of God . And thus , he saithe , Wee tel them : as if his bare tellinge should stande for proufe .

Verily notwithstandinge Christe gaue his Apostles Power of Bindinge , and Loosing , yet it appeareth not , that he spake any one woord of Secrete Confession . And Gratian a Famouse Doctour of that side doubteth not to saye , De POenit . dist. 1. Quis aliquando . De Poenit. Disi . 1. Conuertimini . Latentia peccata non probantur Necessariò Sacerdoti Confitenda : It is not proued , that Priuie sinnes ought of Necessitie to be Confessed vnto the Prieste . And againe , Datur intelligi , quòd etiam ore tacente . Veniam Consequi possumus : Wee are geuen to vnderstande , that although wee vtter nothing with our mouthe , yet wee may obteine pardonne , or Absolution of our sinnes . Therefore notwithstanding al this M. Hardinges tellinge , his owne Doctour Gratian telleth him , that Auriculare Confession is not of Goddes Institution .

But wherefore speaketh M. Hardinge so precisely , and specially of Deadly Sinnes ? Or why maie not his Venial Sinnes comme likewise in the rekeninge as wel , Concil. Trident. Cap. 5. De Confessione . Rob. Holcot in 4. Senten . Qu. 4. 4. Senten . Qu. 83 Artic. 3. as others ? In déede it is specially prouided in the late Chapter at Tridente , that Litle Petite Sinnes néede not to be vttered in Confession . And Rob. Holcote saithe , De Venialibus Confiteri , magis est Supererogationis , quàm Necessitatis : To make Confession of Venial Sinnes , is more of Deuotion , then of Necessitie . And Thomas of Aquine saithe , Quidam probabiliter dicunt , quòd per ingressum Ecclesiae Consecratae homo consequitur Remissionem peccatorum Venialium : Somme saie , and that not without good reason , that a man maye obteine Remission of his Venial Sinnes , onely by entri● into a Churche that is Consecrate . Extra , De p●●niten . & Remiss . Omnis vtriusque . In ●loss● . And it is pourposely noted in the Glose vpon the Decretales , Venialia tolluntur , vel per Orationem Dominican , vel per Aquam Benedictam : Venial Sinnes may be remoued , either by a Pater noster , or by Holy Water . And therefore perhaps M. Hardinge wil saie , accordinge to the iudgemente of these , and others his owne Doctours , that his Litle Prety Venial Sinnes ought not of dewtie to be rekened : but maie otherwise be remitted , and haue no neede of Christes Bloude . This is a shorter waie to Heauen , then either Christe , or his Apostles euer taught vs .

Howe be it , al this errour séemeth firste to haue growen of mistakinge these woordes of Beda : Beda in 5. Cap. Iacobi . Citatur à Magistro . 4. Senten . Distin. 17. Coaequalibus quotidiana , & Leuia : grauiora verò Sacerdoti Pandamus : Let vs open our smal , and daily Sinnes vnto our felowes : and our greate Sinnes vnto the Prieste .

For the reste , M. Hardinges Resolution maie stande withe good fauoure . For séeing his Auricular Confession can holde no better by Diuinitie , that it may séeme to holde by somme what , he did wel , to saye , It holdeth wel by Natural Reason .

M. Hardinge saithe , The Prieste can be no Iudge without particulare knowledge of euery Sinne : Nor can he knowe without hearing : Nor can he heare without Confession . For answeare hereto , Chrysostome saithe , as he is before alleged : Medicinae locus hic est , Chrysostom . De Poenit. Homil. 9. non Iudicij : Non Poenas , sed Peccatorum Remissionem tribuens : Deo Soli die Peccatum tuum : Here is a place of Medicine , and not of Iudgemente : rendring not punishement , but Remission of Sinnes . Open thine offences to God Onely .

But if the Prieste can be no Iudge without knowledge , then doubtelesse , M. Hardinge , your Priestes for the more parte can be no Iudges . For your owne Peter Lombarde saithe , 4. Senten . Dist. 19 Posiquam . Scientiam discernendi Omnes Sacerdotes non habent : Al Priestes haue not knowledge to discerne bitwene sinne , Iudge ouer Sinne . and sinne . And many of them be vtterly ignorant , and knowe nothinge .

Notwithstandinge , be the Prieste neuer so wise , or wel learned , yet howe is be hable to enter into the breaste of man , and to knowe the Secretes of the harte ? S. 1. Cor. 2. 3. Regum . 8. Roma 8. Augusti . Confession Lib. 10. Ca. 3 Paule saithe , What man knoweth , what is in man , but the sprite of man , that is within him ? Salomon saithe , God Onely knoweth the thoughtes of menne . S. Paule saithe , God Onely searcheth the Harte , and reines . And S. Augustine pourposely speakinge hereof , as it is saide before , saithe thus , Vnde sciunt , cùm à me ipso de me ipso audiunt , an verum dicam ? Howe knowe they , when they heare me speake of mee selfe , whether I saie Truthe , or no ? Therefore the Prieste iudginge that , that he cannot knowmuste néedes wander vncertainely , and be a very doubteful Iudge .

Neuerthelesse , admittinge the Prieste to be a Iudge , yet , if it may be proued , either that he maye be a Iudge ouer the sinnes of the people , without Particulare knowledge of the same : or that he may comme to certaine , and particulare knowledge therof without any manner Auriculare Confession , then , I trust , this whole mater wil soone be answeared .

Firste therefore I saye , that a Prieste hauinge Authoritie to pronounce the Woorde of God , is thereby a Iudge ouer Sinne . For the Woorde , that he speaketh , is the Power of God vnto Saluation : Roma . 1. Hebrae . 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and a twoo edged swerd , hable to sunder the Soule ▪ and the Sprite , and the marie from the bones : and is hable to Iudge , ( for so S. Paule saith ) the thoughtes , and cogitations of the Harte . And thus M. Harding him selfe graunteth , that a Prieste pronouncinge Goddes Woorde , maye therewithe bothe Binde , and Loose : that is , in this case , to doo the office of a Iudge . S. Augustine saithe , Clauis ea dicenda est , qua pectorum dura referantur : That thinge ought to be called the Keie , August . De Sanctis , Homil. 27. Tertullian . De Pudicitia . Actor . 2. wherewith the hardnesse of the harte is opened .

So saithe Tertullian , Ipse Clauem imbuit . Vides , quam ? Viri Israelitae , auribus mandate , quae dico : Iesum Nazarenum Virum à Deo nobis destinatum : He endewed the Keie . And knowe you , what Keie ? This Keie , I meane : Ye menne of Israel , make , what I saie : Iesus of Nazareth , a man appointed vnto you from God . So saith S. Augustine . Loquimur in auribus vestris . Vnde scimus , quid agatur in Cordibus vestris ? Quod autem intus agitur , non à nobis , sed ab illo agitur . Prospexit ergo Deus , vt Soluat filios mortificatorum : Wee speake in your eares . Augustin . in Psalm . 101. But howe knowe wee , what is wrought in your hartes ? How be it , what so euer is wrought within you , it is wrought , not by vs , but by God . God therefore hathe looked foorthe , to Loose the Children of them , that were appointed to death . Thus is the Prieste a Iudge , and Bindethe , and Loosethe , withoute any hearinge of Priuate Confessions .

Of the other side , I say , that in open crimes , and Publike Penance , the Priest is like wise appointed to be a Iudge . For notwithstandinge in the Primitiue Churche , either the whole people , or the Elders of the Congregation had Authoritie herein , yet the direction , and Iudgemente rested euermore in the Prieste . And in this sense S. 2. Tim. 5. Paule saithe vnto Timothee , Receiue no accusation againste an Elder , onlesse it be vnder twoo , or three witnesses .

And notwithstandinge these Orders , for the greatest parte thereof , be nowe vtterly out of vse , yet , I truste , it shal not be , neither impertinente to the mater , nor vnpleasante vnto the Reader , to consider , how the same were vsed in olde times . Therefore , as it is Learnedly noted by Beatus Rhenanus , The Sinner , when he beganne to mislike him selfe , and to be penitente for his wicked life , for that he had offended God , and his Churche , came firste vnto the Bishop , and Priestes , as vnto the Mouthes of the Churche , and opened vnto them the whole burthen of his harte . Afterwarde he was by them brought into the Congregation , and there made the same Confession Openly before his Brethren : & further was appointed to make Satisfaction by Open Penance . Whiche Penance being dewly , and humbly donne , he was restored againe openly vnto the Churche , by laieinge on of the handes of the Priestes , and Elders .

Hereof S. Paule saithe vnto the Corinthians , 2. Cor. 2. If you haue forgeeuen any thinge to any man , I haue likewise foregeeuen it . For I mee selfe , what so euer I haue foregeeuen , I haue foregeeuen it for your sakes in the Personne of Christe . In this Limitation of Penance , leste any thing should passe vnaduisedly , and out of Order , the Prieste was appointed to be the Iudge . Basili . Quae. 288. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Augu. in Enchirid. ad Laurentium , Cap. 65. S. Basile saith , Modus Conuersionis debet esse conueniens illi , qui peccauit : The Order of Conuersion , or Open Penance , must be agreeable vnto him , that hathe offended . And therefore S. Augustine saithe , Quia Plaerunque &c. For as mutche as , for the moste parte , the griefe of one mannes harte is vnknowen vnto an other , neither commeth foorthe into the knowledge of others , either by woordes , or by other tokens , as beinge before him , vnto whom it is saide , My mourninge is not hidde from thee , therefore it is very wel , that by them , that haue the ouersight of the Churche , certaine times of Penance are appointed , that the Congregation maye be satisfied . Againe he saithe , Hortor Priùs Publica Poenitentia satisfacere : Augusti . De Ecclesiast. Dogmatib . Cap. 53. Cassiodor . Lib. 9 Cap. 35. & ita Sacerdotis Iudicio reconciliatum Communioni sociari : I Counsel him , that firste he make Satisfaction by Open Penance : that being so reconciled , he maie afterwarde be restored vnto the Communion by the Iudgement , and Discretion of the Prieste . Likewise saithe Cassiodorus , Rei expectant Communionis tempus , quod decreuit Episcopus : The Peintente parties waite for the Communion time , appointed vnto them by the Bishop .

S. Ambrose demaunded of the Emperoure Theodosius , beinge then excommunicate , Quibus Medicamentis incurabilia vulnera tua , Cassiodor . Lib. 9. Cap. 30. plagasque curasti ? By what Medicines haue you healed your woundes , and cuttes , that were incurable ? The Emperoure answeared , Tuum Opus est , & Docere , & Medicamenta temperare : Meum verò oblata sucipere : It is your parte to Instructe me , and to Minister Medicines : and it is my parte to receiue that you Minister . 4. Senten . Dist. 18. Non autem . And therefore Peter Lombarde saithe , Etsi aliquis apud Deum sit solutus , non tamen in facie Ecclesiae solutus habetur , nisi per Iudicium Sacerdotis : Although a man be assoiled before God , yet is he not accoumpted assoiled in the Face or Sight of the Churche , but by the Iudgement of the Prieste .

By theise , M. Hardinge , I doubte not , but ye maie see , that the Priest maie be a Iudge ouer Sinne , notwithstandinge he neither heare Priuate Confessions , nor haue particulare knowledge of euery seueral sinne .

This is that Confession , that the Holy Fathers haue so often spoken of . It was made not secretely , or in a corner : but publiquely , and openly , and in the sight of the Congregation . Origen . in Psalm 37. Hereof Origen saithe , as it is reported before : Si quis sibi sit conscius , Procedat in Medium , & ipse sui accusator existat : If any man finde him selfe guilty , let him comme foorth into the middes of the Churche , and let him be his owne accuser . Likewise Tertullian saithe , Tertullian . De Poenitentia . Aduolui Presbyteris , & Aris Dei adgeniculari , & Omnibus Fratribus legationes deprecationis suae iniungere : To false down before the Priestes : To kneele before the Aultar , or Communion Table : and to desire Al the Brethren to praie for him .

Touchinge S. Hierome , M. Hardinge , ye laie in his woordes as faithefully , as Ananias sometime laide in his monie at the Apostles féete . Ye serue vs with a parcel , and holde backe the reste . It is true , that S. Hierome saithe , It is the Priestes parte to discerne the diuersitie bitwéene sinne , and sinne , as in cases of Excommunication , and Publique offences . But wherefore could ye not espie : or rather , why woulde you so closely dissemble so many , and so plaine Woordes goeinge immediately before ? For thus S. Hierome writeth of the Power of the Keies , Heronym . in Matthae . Cap. 16. and of the vse of Confession : Istum locum Episcopi ▪ & Presbyteri non intelligentes , aliquid sibi de Pharisaeorum assumunt Supercilio : vt vel damnent innocentes , vel soluere se noxios arbitrentur : cùm apud Deum non sententia Sacerdotum , sed reorum vita quaeratur : This place the Bishoppes , and Priestes not vnderstandinge , take vnto them somme parte of the Proude looke of the Phariseis : thinkinge them selues hable either to Condemne the innocente , or to Absolue the guiltie : Whereas in deede it is not the Absolution of the Prieste , but the life of the Sinner , that is Weighed before God . These woordes , M. Hardinge , woulde not thus haue benne dissembled , if ye had meante simple dealinge . S. Hierome saithe plainely , that your Bishoppes , and Priestes vnderstande not the vse of the Keies : That ye haue taken vpon you somme parte of the Proude lookes of the Phariseis : And that it is not the Absolution of the Prieste , but the life of the partie , that is accepted before God .

In the ende , he concludeth thus , Alligat , vel soluit Episcopus , vel Presbyter , non eos , qui insontes sunt , vel noxij : Sed pro officio suo , cùm Peccatorum audierit varietates , scit , qui ligandus sit , qui soluendus : The Bishop , or Prieste neither Bindeth the innocente , nor Loosethe the guiltie : but accordinge to his office , when he hathe heard the diuersitie of sinnes , ( as in Publique offences ) he knoweth , who ought to be Bounde , who ought to be Loosed . 4. Senten . Dist. 18. Nec ideo . In like sorte writeth Peter Lombarde , Dominus tribuit Sacerdotibus potestatem Ligandi , & Soluendi : id est , ostendendi hominibus Ligatos , vel Solutos : God hath geuen to Priestes Power to Binde , and to Loose : that is to saie , to declare vnto menne , that the Penitentes be either Bounde , or Loosed .

Al this notwithstandinge , al be it M. Hardinge were hable to proue , that the Fathers had sommewhere made mention of Confession in Secrete , yet should not that greately either further his pourpose , or hinder ours . For , Abuses , and Errours remoued , and specially the Prieste beinge Learned , as wee haue saide before , wée mislike no manner Confession , whether it be Priuate , or Publike . For as wée thinke it not vnlawful , to make open Confession before many , so wée thinke it not vnlawful . Abuses alwaies excepted , to make the like Confession in Priuate , either before a fewe , or before one alone . And , as the Holy Fathers , vpon good considerations , were forced to remoue the vse of Open Confession , euen so wée saye , that vpon like good Considerations Priuate Confession also maye be remoued .

Onely this wée saie , that Christe , when he sente his Disciples into the Worlde , and gaue them Authoritie , to Binde , and to Loose , made no manner mention of any sutche Hearinge of Confessions , but Onely bade them goe , and Preache the Gospel .

Hilarie , Bernarde , and Huge , as ye haue alleged them , séeme to saye , that the Iudgemente of Man goethe before the Iudgemente of God . Other the like , or rather more vehemente speaches ye might haue founde in Chrysostome : Chrysost. in Esai . Homil. 5. Coelum accipit Authoritatem ludicandi à Terra . Index seder in Terris : Dominus sequitur Seruum : Heauen taketh Authoritie of Iudgemente from the Earthe . In Earthe sitteth the Iudge : The Lorde followeth the Seruante . These , and sutche other the like extraordinarie speaches , with good Construction , maie be comfortable to the afflicted minde . But , as one saide sommetime , they muste be receiued with a Graine of Salte : For otherwise of them selues they be vnsauerie . For S. Hierome saithe , as I haue alleged before , Hierony . in Matthae . Cap. 16. 11. Quaest. 3. Tunc vera . Apud Deum , non sententia Sacerdotis , sed reorum vita quaeritur : It is not the Sentence , or Absolution of the Prieste , but the life of the Penitente , that is accepted before God . And againe , Tunc vera est sententia Praesidentis , quando Aeterni sequitur sententiam Iudicis : Then the Iudgemente of the Presidente , or Prieste is true , ( not when it goeth before , but ) when it folowethe the Iudgement of the Euerlastinge Iudge . And Gratian him selfe saithe , De Poenit. Dist. 1 Conuertimini . Non Sacerdotali Iudicio , sed largitate Diuinae Gratiae Peccator emundatur : The Sinner is made Cleane , not by Iudgemente of the Prieste , but by the abundance of the Heauenly Grace .

But Nazianzene , as he is here alleged , saide vnto the Emperour , Ouis nostra es : Thou arte Oure Sheepe . Confession nor Commaunded . No marueile . He meante , that the Emperoure was One of the Flocke , and Folde of Christe . So S. Ambrose saide sometime vnto the Emperoure Valentinian : Quid honorificentius , quàm vt Ecclesiae Filius dicatur Imperator ? Imperator enim bonus intra Ecclesiam , Ambros . ad Valentinian . Epist. 32 Chrysostom . De Verbis Esaiae , Homil. 5. non supra Ecclesiam est : What thinge is there more honourable , then for the Emperour to be called a Childe of the Churche ? For a good ●mperour is Within the Churche : but not Aboue the Churche . S. Chrysostome saithe , Deus ipse subiecit Caput Principis manui Sacerdotis : God him selfe hathe set the Heade of the Prince vnder the Hande of the Prieste . For , as touchinge Faithe , and the Obedience of the Gospel , the Highest Prince is but a Subiecte . Al this proueth wel the Authoritie , and Dignitie of Goddes Woorde : but it maketh nothinge for Confession .

To conclude , M. Hardinge saithe , It hath benne persuaded , that the recitinge , and rehearsal of al sinnes before the Prieste , is necessarie to Saluation : and that a General Confession is in no wise sufficient . And againe he saithe , True Faithe acknowledgeth , that Confession is to be made of al Sinnes , as Commaunded by Christe , and his Apostles : Commended vnto vs by the Fathers of the Primitiue Churche , and by al Learned Doctours , and General vse of the whole Churche .

Good Reader , Thou wouldest thinke , that emongest so many greate Woordes , there were somme Truthe : and that M. Hardinge of his modestie , and for his Credites sake , would not speake so boldly without somme ground . But , I beseche thee , Consider these fewe : and thereby Iudge indifferently of the reste .

Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in Psal 50. Homil. 2 Chrysostom . in Homil. De Poeniten . & Confessione . Beat. Rhenan . in Argum. Libelli Tertull. De Poenitentia . Non dico , vt Confitearis Conseruo tuo peccata tua . Dicito Deo , qui curet ea : I wil thee not to Confesse thy Sinnes vnto the Prieste , that is thy felowe seruante . Confesse them vnto God , that maie heale them . Againe , Cogitatione tua fiat delictorum exquisitio : Sine teste sit hoc Iudicium : Solus Deus te Consitentem videat : Examine thy Sinnes in thy harte within thee . Let this Iudgemente be without witnesse : Let God onely see thee makinge thy Confession . Beatus Rhenanus , a man of greate readinge , and singulare Iudgemente , hereof writeth thus : Tertullianus de Clancularia ista Confessione admissorum nihil loquitur . Neque eam vsquam olim Praeceptam legimus : Tertullian of this Priuie Confession of Sinnes saithe nothinge . Neither doo wee reade , that the same Kinde of Priuie Confession in Olde times was euer Commaunded . M. Hardinge saith , It was Commaunded : Rhenanus saith , It was not Commaunded . If Rhenanus woordes be true , as they be in deede , their are M. Hardinges woordes most vntrue . Likewise it is noted in the very Glose vpon M. Hardinges owne Decrées : De Poenit. dist. 1. Petrus . In Gloss . Fortè tunc ( tempore Ambrosij ) non erat facta Institutio Confessionis , quae modò est : Perhaps then ( in the time of S. Ambrose , whiche was foure hundred yéres after Christe ) the manner of Confession , that now is vsed , was not appointed . De Poenit. Disc 1. Conuertimini . And Gratian saith , Antequam Sacerdoti Ora nostra ostendamus , id est , Peccata nostra Confiteamur , à Lepra peccati mundamur : Before wee open our mouthe vnto the Prieste , that is to saie , before wee make Confession of our Sinnes , the Leprosie of our Sinne is made cleane . De Poenit. dist. 1. Quidam . Theodorus saithe , Quidam Deo solummodò confiteri debere peccata dicunt , vt Graeci : Somme saie , wee ought to Confesse our Sinnes onely vnto God , as doo the Grecians . Peter Lombarde the Chiefe Founder of M. Hardinges Diuinitie , 4 Senten . dist 17. Quid ergo . saithe thus : Sanè dici potest , quòd sine Confessione Oris , & solutione Poenae exterioris , Peccata delentur per Contritionem , & humilitatem Cordis : Wee maie safely saye , that without Confession of the Mouthe , and Absolution of the out warde paine , Sinnes be foregeeuen by the Contrition , and humilitie of the Harte .

Briefely , Gratian hauinge thorowly debated the mater of bothe sides , that is to saie , bothe for Confession , and againste Confession , in the ende concludeth thus , as it is saide before : De Poenit. dist. 1. Quamuis . Cui harum sententiarum potiùs adhaerendum sit , Lectoris Iudicio reseruatur . Vtráque enim sententia fautores habet Sapientes , & Religiosos Viros : Whether of these saieinges it is beste to folowe , it is leafte to the Iudgemente of the Reader : For either Saieinge is mainteined , and fauoured , both by wise , and by Godly Menne . And , whereas M. Hardinge saithe , Confession of al Sinnes is Commaunded by Christe , and his Apostles , his owne Glose vpon his owne Decrees openly reproueth his erroure , De Poenit. dist. 5. In Poenitentia , In Gloss . and teacheth him the contrarie . The woordes be these : Meliùs dicitur . Confessionem institutam fuisse à quadam Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Traditione , potiùs quàm ex Noui , vel Veteris Testamenti Authoritate : It is better saide , that Confession was appointed by somme Tradition of the Vniuersal Churche , then by any Authoritie , or Comm●undemente of the Newe , or Olde Testamente .

Nowe , good Christian Reader , I beseche thee , examine alitle the Truthe of M. Hardinges tale . Firste he saithe , The Recitinge , and Rehearsal of al Sinnes before the Prieste is Necessarie to Saluation : 1. Chrysostome answeareth , Let God Onely heare thy Confession . There is one Vntruthe . M. Hardinge saithe , General Confession is not sufficiente : 2. Peter Lombarde answeareth , Sine Confessione Oris , &c. Without any Confession made by mouthe our Sinnes maie be foregeeuen . There are twoo Vntruthes .

M. Hardinge saith , 3. Confession of al Sinnes is commaunded by Christe , and his Apostles : His owne Glose saithe , It is Onely a Tradition of the Churche , commaunded neither in the Olde Testamente , nor in the Newe . There are thrée Vntruthes . 4. 5. M. Hardinge saithe , It was commended vnto vs by the * Doctours , and Fathers of the * Primitiue Churche : Rhenanus saithe , Wée reade not , that this kinde of Priuie Confession in the Olde times was euer Commaunded : And his owne Glose saithe , In the time of S. Ambrose ( whiche was foure hundred yéeres after Christe ) perhaps it was not vsed . There are Foure , & Fiue Vntruthes . M. 6. Harding saithe , It hathe euer ben allowed by al the Learned Doctours : His owne Gratian answeareth him , The Contrarie hath benne mainteined , and fauoured bothe bi Wise , and by Godly Fathers . There are sixe Vntruthes .

To be shorte , M. Hardinge saithe : It hathe benne Commended vnto vs by the General vse of the whole Churche : 7. Theodorus answeareth him , The whole Churche of Grecia vseth it not . There are Seuen apparente , and greate Vntruthes , disclosed by M. Hardinges owne Doctours . He coulde not haue comprised so mutche Vntruthe in so narrowe roome without somme studie .

Erasmus a man of greate Iudgemente saithe thus , Erasm . in Schol. in Epitaphium Fabiolae . Apparet , tempore Hieronymi nondum Institutam fuisse Secrètam admissorum Confessionem : quam posted Ecclesia salubriter instituit : si modò rectè vtantur ea & Sacerdotes , & Laici . Verùm in hoc labuntur Theologi quidam parùm attenti , quòd , quae Veteres scribunt de hurusmodi Publica , & Generali Confessione , ea trahunt ad hanc Occultam , & longè diuersi generis : It appeareth , that in the time of S. Hierome ( whiche was foure hundred yéeres after Christe ) Secrete Confession of Sinnes was not yet ordeyned : Whiche notwithstandinge was afterwarde wholesomely , and profitably appointed by the Churche , so that it be wel vsed , as wel by the Priestes , as by the People . But herein certaine Diuines , not consideringe aduisedly , what they saie , are mutche deceiued : for what so euer the Auncient Fathers write of General , and Open Confession , they wreaste , and drawe the same to this Priuie , and Secrete kinde , whiche is far of an other sorte .

Here , M. Hardinge , Erasmus telleth you , yée are fowly deceiued : and sheweth you also the cause of your erroure : for that , as he saithe , ye consider not aduisedly , what ye either reade , or write : but where so euer ye heare this worde Confession , ye imagine streight waie , It muste needes be your owne Auriculare Confession , and can be none other .

Laste of al , ye graunte , The expresse Terme of Auriculare , or Secrete Confession is seldome mentioned in the Aunciente Fathers . Here , M Hardinge , wanteth somme parte of your simplicitie . If ye would haue your Reader to beleeue you , Authoritie , and Power . ye shoulde haue alleged certaine of the Auncient Fathers . One at the leaste , if ye coulde haue founde so many , that had at any time vsed the expresse terme of Auriculare , or Secrete Confession . Otherwise it had benne the better , and plainer waie , to haue Confessed expressely , that the same expresse terme is neuer vsed in any one of al the Ancient Fathers . Howe be it , if Auriculare , or Secrete Confession had then benne vsed , it coulde neuer so longe haue lackte a name .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 3.

Wee saie , that the Prieste in deede is a Iudge in this case , but yet hath no manner of Right to chalenge an Authoritie , or Power , as saithe Ambrose .

M. Hardinge .

Whereas ye make preachinge of the Gospel to be the Keies , howe cal ye the Prieste Iudge in this case ? Preache ye neuer so mutche , the conscience of man beinge so secrete a thinge as it is , howe can ye iudge , who in wardly and throughly repenteth , and who repenteth not ? And though one repente , and be sory , and haue remorse of his former life , though he looke vnto the light of the Gospel as ye say , and beleue in Christe , what then ? howe can ye iudge of sutche a Persone ? * * And doo ye know his harte by tootinge in his eare ? Do ye knowe his harte by lokinge in his face ?

The Prieste dewly vsinge the Keie of knowledge and discretion , doth the office of a Iudge , and as he seethe cause , either Looseth or Bindeth . As touchinge the Priestes Authoritie , or Power , which to chalenge he hath no right , De Poenit. Dist. 1. C. Verbum Dei. for so your Interpreter maketh you to speake , and impute it to S. Ambrose : we denie , that S. Ambrose saieth * * Vntruthe . For the word●s be these . Nullius potestatis iura exercet . euen very so ▪ But ▪ as we maye gather of his woordes , as he meaneth that a Prieste exerciseth not the right of any his owne proper power in remittinge sinnes : so in the very place by you alleaged , he saith the contrary to your Doctrine . For the Right of loosinge and bindinge ( saieth he ) is graunted to Priestes onely , and therefore the Churche chalengeth it rightly , whiche hath true Priestes . Lo he vseth the woorde of chalenge . Againe in the same place he auoucheth , that he whiche receiueth the Holy Ghoste , ( whom Priestes receiue , when they be Consecrated in the Sacrament of Order ) receiue also power to Loose and Binde Sinnes . For prouse thereof he alleageth the Scripture : Iohan. 20. Take ye the Holy Ghoste , whole sinnes ye remitte , they are remitted : and whose sinnes ye reteine , they are reteined . And if you , Defender , were accustomed to make your humble Confession , and so to be assoiled , you should heare some Ghostly Fathers saie to you , after certaine other woordes , Auctoritate mihi commissa ego te Absoluo , &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

In what sense the Prieste without hearinge Confessions maie be a Iudge , wée haue sufficiently saide before . Neither knowe I , what fansie M. Hardinge can haue in so often rehearsal of one thinge . With what woordes , or coloure of Commission , M. Hardinge can furnishe out his Authoritie , it forceth not greately . Verily without somme shew , or countenance , his credite would not holde . In deede , Hugo , and Bernarde saie , The Iudgemente of God foloweth the Iudgemente of man . And Pope Iulius saithe , Concil. Tom. 1. De Primatis Rom. Ecclesiae . Habet Sacrosancta Romana Ecclesia Potestatem , singulari sibi Priuilegio Concessam , Aperire , & Claudere ianuas Regni Coelestis , quibus voluerit : The Holy Churche of Rome hath Power grounted vnto her by Singul●re Priuilege , to Open , and to Shutte the gates of the Kingedome of Heauen , to whom she listeth . And Cardinal Cusanus saithe , Nicol Cusanus . De Aut●●●●●a . Eccle & on . Supra & Contra Scripturam . Haee Ligandi , & ●oluendi Potestas , non minor est in Ecclesia , quàm in Christo : This Power of Bindinge , and Loosing is no lesse in the Churche . then it is in Christe .

But it is no greate wisedome to geue ouer mutche credite vnto them , that so often haue deceiued vs . If theire Authoritie be so greate , as they make it , let them shewe the woordes of theire Commission . The saieing of S. Ambrose is cleare , and plaine : Verbum Dei dimittit Peccata . Sacerdos est Iudex . De Poenit. dis 1. Verbum Dei . Sacerdos quidem officium suum exhibet : Sed nullius potestatis iura exercet . The Woorde of God foregeeueth Sinnes . The Prieste is the Judge . The Prieste executeth his office : But he exerciseth the right of no Power . And to this ende in an other place he allegeth the woordes of the Prophete Esai , spoken in the person of God , Ego sum , Ambros . De Noë & Arca , Ca 13. Esaiae 4. Augu. De Scalis Paradisi . ego sum , qui deleo iniquitates tuas : I am he , I am he , that put a waie thine iniquities .

And to laie more weight to S. Ambroses woordes , S. Augustine saithe in like sense , Officium Baptizandi Dominus concessit multis : Potestatem verò , & Authoritatem in Baptismo remittendi peccata sibi Soli reseruauit : Our Lorde hath graunted the office of Baptizinge vnto many : but the Power , and Authoritie in Baptisme to foregeeue Sinnes , he hath reserued Onely to him selfe . Ambros . De poeviten . li. 2. Ca. 7 So saithe S. Ambrose , Nostrum est onera remittere : Illius est resuscitare : Illius est educere de Sepulchro : It is our parte , to remoue the stone from the graue ( by Preachinge , by Counsel , and by Exhortation ) But it is the Lordes woorke to raise vp the deade : It is the Lordes woorke , to bring him from the pitte . Ambros . Lib. 9. Epist. 76 Likewise againe he saithe , Neque Legatus , neque nuntius , sed ipse Dominus saluum fecit populum suum . Solus remanet : quia non potest hoc cuiquam hominum cum Christo esse commune , vt peccata condonet . Solius hoc munus est Christi , qui tulit peccata mundi . It is not the Embassadoure : It is not the Messenger , but the Lorde him selfe , that hath saued his people . The Lorde remaineth alone . For noman can be partener with God in foregeeuinge of Sinnes . This is Christes Onely office , that hath taken awaie the sinnes of the World .

And yet is not the Priestes office voide of Power . He hath Power , and Commission to open the Wil of God , 2 Corin 5. Tertull. De Baptismo . Augustinus . and , as S. Paule saith , to speake vnto the people , euen as in the Person of Christe . So Tertullian saithe , Dandi Baptismi ius habet Summus Sacerdos , id est , Episcopus : The Chiefe Prieste , that is to saie , the Bishop , hath Right , and Power to geeue Baptisme . But S. Augustine saithe , Ministerium dedit seruis : Potestatem sibi retinuit : God gone the Ministerie ( of Remission of Sinnes ) vnto his Seru●untes : Luk. 10. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . But the Power thereof he reteined to him selfe . So , when Christe sent out his Disciples to Preache the Gospel , he gaue them Authoritie , & Power .

If M. Hardinge wil saie , There is no Power , or Authoritie in the Reading . or Publishinge of Goddes Woorde , his owne Doctour Hosius wil telle him , that when the Bishop Ordereth a Reader , euen after the manner of the Churche of Rome , he saithe vnto him , Hosius in Confessione Petricouien . Cap. 52. Habe Potestatem legendi Epistolas in Ecclesia Sancta Dei , tam pro viuis , quàm pro defunctis : Haue thou Power to Reade the Epistles in the Holy Churche of God , as wel for the quicke , as for the Deade .

In deede this is a very special Power , sutche as , I trowe , Christe and his Apostles neuer taught vs . Neither woulde I haue noted it in this place , sauing that Hosius , the profoundest Proctour of that side , thought it a mater woorthe the notinge . Sutche power therefore belongeth to Priestes , and Ministers in the Churche of God . But the Power of Geuinge Remission of Sinne belongeth to God alone , and to none other . Hieronym . in Matthae . Cap. 16. If any man wil presume further , S. Hierome saithe , as it is alleged before , He hath put on the proude looke of the Phariseis : And saithe further , that sutche Priestes , and Bishoppes vnderstande not the Woordes of Christe . For , saithe he , It is not the Iudgemente or Absolution of the Prieste , but the Life of the Penitente , that is regarded before God : And therefore S. Augustine saith , Inde nata sunt Schismata , August . De Fide & Operibus . Cap. 14. cùm homines dicunt , Nos Sanctificamus immundos : Nos Iustificamus impios : nos petimus : nos impetramus : Hereof grow Schismes , and Diuisions in the Churche , when menne saie , wee Sanctifie the vncleane : wee Justifie the wicked : wee desire : wee obteine .

Howe he it , here commeth in Richardus de Sancto Victore , God wate , with a ful colde distinction . For thus he saithe , Christus potuit Dimittere Peccara : Nos vero ' non possumus Dimittere Peccata , sed tantùm Remittere .

Peter Lombarde saithe mutche better : Richa De Sancte Victore , De Potesta . Ligan . & Soluen . Par. 1 Cap. 24. Christus Sacerdotibus tribuit potestatem Ligandi , & Soluendi , id est , ostendendi hominibus Ligatos , vel Solutos : Christe hath geuen Power vnto Priestes to Binde , and to Loose : that is to saie , to declare vnto menne , whoe be Bounde , whoe be Loose .

Sa saithe Bonauentura of the Priestes vnder the Lawe of Mases : 4 Senten . dist 18. Nec ideo . Bonauen. 4. Sen. dist. 1. In Prooemio . 1 qu. 1. Dictum est . De Ioenit . dist. 1. Verbum Dei . Mundare dicebantur , quia mundatum ostendebant : They were saide to cleanse the Leprosie , bicouse they shewed , who was cleansed . So saith S. Augustine , Nec voluntas Sacerdotis obesse vel prodesse potest , sed Meritum Benedictionem Poscentis : The wil of the Prieste can neither further , nor hinder : But the Merite of him , that desueth Absolution .

Thus therfore S. Ambrose meaneth , The Prieste is a Iudge to discerne bitweene sinne , and sinne , as wel Priuate , as Publique , But Right , Power , or Authoritie to foregeeue fianes , he hath none .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 4.

And therefore our Saueour Iesus Christe , to reproue the Negligence of the Scribes , and Phariseis in teachinge , did with these woordes rebuke them , saieing : Woe be vnto you Scribes , & Phariseis , whiche haue taken away the Keyes of knowledge , & haue shutte vp the Kingedome of Heauen before menne . Seeinge then the Keie whereby the way , and entrie to the Kingdome of God is opened vnto vs , is the Woorde of the Gospel , and the Expoundinge of the Lawe , and Scriptures , wee saie plainely , where the same Woorde is not , there is not the Keie .

M. Hardinge .

By this wee are induced to graunte , the knowledge of the Scripture is a Keie . that the knowledge of the Scripture is a Keie , whereby the gate to the Truthe is opened , the vse whereof consisieth in expoundinge of the Lawe , and Prophetes , as they shewe Christe . But wee say , this not to be the special Keies , whiche Christe gaue to the church , but one Keie alone . And so Christe calleth it , where he rebuked the Scribes and Phariseis . Though you haue put it otherwise then the Gospel hath , in the Plural number . And this Keie is common to the Lawe , and to the Gospel . But the Keies , whiche we speake of , are another thinge . By the name of these leies , We vnderstande the whole spiritual Power , whiche Christe firste promised to Peter , and afterwarde gaue to the Apostles , and from them is transferred to al Bishoppes and Priestes . By whiche Power Priestes teache the Gospel , Consecrate the Body and Bloude of Christe , and Minister the Sacramentes , through Auctoritie of the Woorde Absolue Penitentes , and excommunicate Publike and hainous sinners . The Keie that you confusely speake of , naminge it to be the Woorde of the Gospel , and Expoundinge of the Lawe , and Scriptures , is one parte perteininge to this spiritual Power : it is not the whole Power . And where this Woorde is not , that is to saie , where the Scriptures be not taught , and the Gospel preached , there is not the Keie , saie ye : there is not the exercise of that Keie , saie we . Yet ther is this spiritual Power , that is to witte , ther be the Keies . Ye we say that a simple Prieste * * Vntruth . The Keie of Knoweledge , without knowledge . though he haue no greate learninge , yet hath he the Keies , though he might do better , and more worthely vse them , hauinge learninge and knowledge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

M. Hardinge mutche and often complaineth of the Confusion of the Keies : that wée appointe not distinctly eche Keie to his seueral office . Marke therefore , I beseche thée , Gentle Reader , hewe distinctly , and plainely M. Hardinge him selfe intreateth of the same .

Firste , confusion of Keies . of the twoo Keies , that Christe hath deliuered vs in the Gospel , he hathe made a greate many of Keies : The Keie of knowledge : The keie of Order : The Keie of Power : The Keie of Discretion : The Keie of Sacramentes : And for as mutche , as Sacramentes by his Doctrine be Seuen in number , there muste also be of this sorte Seuen other seueral Keies . And yet ouer and bisides al these Keies béeing so many , the Pope hath also One Special Maister Keie . Afterward by a sleight . and by nimblenesse of his fingers , he conueigheth al this heape of Keies into twoo Onely Keies : whereof the One he calleth the Keie of knowledge , and the other the Keie of Power : Whiche twoo Keies notwithstandinge in the ende are suddainely consumed both into One onely Keie . For where as the Keie of knowledge is lost , there , by M. Hardinges Iudgement , Power onely remaineth without knowledge : And that Keie alone dischargeth al offices , and is vtterly al in al.

This Keie of Power without knowledge , muste néedes be the Keie of Ignorance : Or , as they them selues haue vsed to cal it , Clauis Errans , The Keie of Errour . Or whiche Keie vndoubtedly Christe saide sommetime , Luk. 22. 4. Senten . Dist. 19. Postquam . Alexand. De Hales , Par. 4. Qu. 79. Hoc est tempus vestrum , & Potestas Tenebrarum : This is your time , and the Power of Darkenesse . Peter Lombarde him selfe saithe , Many Priestes be Ignorante , and haue not the Keie of knowledge : Alexander of Hales saithe , Scientia non est Clauis : Knowledge is no Keie at al.

Yet M. Hardinge answeareth vs , that the simple ignorant Prieste , that knoweth nothinge , hath not onely One Keie , but both Keies ( for so he calleth them in the Plural number ) that is to saie , as wel the Keie of knowledge , as the Keie of Power . And thus haue they forged a Keie of knowledge without knowledge : and with the same keie they expounde , and open the Scriptures : they Minister the Sacramentes : they Binde : they Loose : and breake vp a by way into the Kingedome of Heauen . Yet muste wée beleue , that they speake simply , and plainely of these Keies , and without confusion .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 5.

And seeinge one manner of Woorde is geuen to al , and one onely Keie belongeth to al , wee say , there is but one onely Power of al Ministers , as concerning Openinge , and Shuttinge . And as touchinge the Bishop of Rome , for al that his Flatteringe Parasites singe these woordes in his eares , To thee wil I geue the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen , ( as though these Keies were fitte for him alone , and for no body els ) excepte he goe so to woorke , as Mennes Consciences maie be made pliaunte , and be subdued to the Woorde of God , wee denie , that he doth either Open , or Shutte , or hath the Keies at al.

And although the taught , and instructed the People ( as woulde God he might once truely doo , and perswade him selfe , it were at the leaste any peece of his dewtie ) yet wee thinke his Keie to be neuer a white better or of greater force , then other mennes . For who hath seuered him from the reste ? Who hath taught him more conningely to Open , or better to Absolue then his bretherne ?

M. Hardinge .

Your grounde beinge false , what ye buylde thereon some faileth . The whole Power of the Keies pardy ( howe often times muste we tell you one thinge ? ) standeth not in preachinge onely , but in sundry other excellent ministeries also , as wee haue proued . If the Bishop of Rome preache not , he doth neis the Open , nor shut by preachinge : wee graunte . Yet mens Consciences beinge made plaint and subdued by the Woorde of God by others , Preache by a Deputie . that preache at his appointement , he maie by vertue of the Keies either Open or Shut , Loose or Binde , as by discretion he seeth cause . And whereas Christe saide to Peter , and therefore to the Bishop of Rome Peters Successour , To thee wil I geue the Keies of the Kingdome of Heauen : Matthae . 16. wil ye call them flatteringe Parisites , that yelde to him that , whiche Christe gaue to him ? Sutche vomite sheweth what humour your stomake is charged withal . Denyinge the B. of Rome , whom for al the spite ye beare towarde him , ye must acknowledge to be a Bishop , to haue the Keies at al , onlesse he preache in his own Personne , ye declare your greate ignorance , and fowle temeritie . Know ye not , that a Power annexed to an Order , and Vocation is not taken away from one by not exercisinge the same in his owne Person ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

The effecte hereof , besides other ordinarie idle talke , standeth in twoo pointes . Firste , M. Harding saithe , The Pope , though he doo nothing him selfe in his owne Personne , yet he maye sufficiently féede the Flocke of Christe , and Binde , & Loose , and discharge al dewties by his Deputies , and Vnderuicars , that is to saye , by his Cardinalles , and Bishoppes , whiche are as careful , and zelous for their offices , and tender theire charge , as mutch , as he . This ground , I trow , is not false : and therefore , what so euer M. Harding shal builde thereon , it can neuer faile . Notwithstanding , I doo not remember , that either Christe , or his Apostles euer vsed to doo the like . One saide sommetime , Titus Liuius Decade . 3. Lib. 6. Impudens est Imperator , qui , cùm alienis oculis omnia ei agenda sint , postulat sibi aliorum Capita , & Fortunas committi : He is a shamelesse Captaine , that , whereas he must guide al thinges by the eies of others , wil require other mennes liues , ad goodes to be committed to his handes .

Pope Damasus saithe , Damasus Papa Epistola 4. Illi Episcopi , qui talia sibi praesumunt , videntur mihi similes esse Meretricibus . quae starim , vt pariunt , infantes suos al●s nutricibus tradunt educandos : vt suam citiùs libidinem explere valeant . Sic & isti Infantes suos , id est , populos sibi Commissos , alijs educan dos tradunt , vt ipsi suas libidines expleant , id est , vt pro suo libitu Saecularibus curis inhient , & , quod cuique visum fuerit , liberitis agant : Sutche Bishoppes takinge sutche maters vpon them selues , seeme like vnto H●rsottes : Whiche as soone , as they be once deliuered , streight waie deliuer out theire Children vnto N●urces , that they maie the rather folow their pleasures . Euen so these Bishoppes diliuer ouer theire children , that is to saie , the people committed to theire Charges , to be reared , and brought vp by others ▪ that they maie the better accomplishe theire pleasures , that is to saie , that they maie geeue them selues ouer to worldly cares , and doo what so euer shal like them best .

Further saith M. Harding , Christ said vnto Peter , To thee wil I geeue the Keies : Feede my Sheepe : Confirme thy Brethren : Ergo , the Pope is a Lorde Paramounte , and hathe a Power Pierclesse ouer al the world . Peter of Palus hereof writeth thus : Christus dixit Apostolis , Petrus De Palude , De Potestate collata Apostolis , Arti. 1. Quaecunque ligaueritis in terra , erunt ligata & in Coelo , Non dixit , In Coelis , sicut Petro dixerat : Sed in Coelo Vno . Vnde non sunt tantae perfectionis , sicut Petrus : Christe saide vnto the Apostles , what so euer ye shal Binde in Earthe , it shal be bounde in Heauen . He saide not , It shal be bounde in Heauens , as he saide to Peter : But in One Heauen . Therefore the other Apostles were not of sutche perfection , as Peter was .

Againe he saithe , Petr. de Palude . Illa verba , Quaecunque ligaueris , intelliguntur de Vtroque Foro , & de Vtraque Potestate . Illa autem Verba , Quorumcunque ligaueritis , intelliguntur anúm de Foro Conscientiae : These woordes ( spoken vnto Peter ) What so euer thou shalt Binde , are vnderstoode of bothe Courtes , as wel of the Courte of Judgemente , as of the Courte of Conscience . But these other woordes ( Spoken vnto the other Apostles ) What so euer you shal Binde , &c. are vnderstoode onely of the Courte of Conscience .

This fantasie , Equal Power . it séemeth , he learned out of these woordes of Origen : Non modica differentia est , Orizen . in Mattha . Tractatu 6. quòd Petro quidem datae sunt Claues , non Vnius Coeli , sed multorum Caelorum : vt quaecuque I gauerit super tertam , sint ligata , non tantùm Vno in Caelo , sed euam in omnibus Coelis . Ad alios dicit , vt soluant , & ligent , non in Coelis , sicut Petrus , sed in Vno Caelo . quia non sunt in tanta perfectione , sicut Petrus , vt ligent , & soluant in omnibus Coelis . The difference is greate : For vnto Peter are geeuen the Keies , not of one Heauen but of many Heauens : that , what so euer he bindeth in Earth , shal be bound , not onely in One Heauen , but also in al the heauens . But vnto the reste he geeueth Power to Binde , and Loose , not in the Heauens , as Peter doo the , but in One Heauen : for that they were not in sutche perfection , as Peter was , to Binde , or Loose in al the Heauens .

This Multiplication of Heauens , as I haue saide , is but a fantasie : and yet to M. Hardinges pourpose it maketh nothing . For Origen by this woorde Peter , meante not Peter the Apostle , but any other Godly Learned Prieste , or Bishop : whom he expresseth here vnder the name of Peter . For it foloweth immediately , Ergo , quantò melior fuerit , qui soluit , tantò beatior erit , qui soluitur : quoniam in omnibus solutus est Coelis : Therefore the better man he is , that looseth , the moore blessed is he , that is Loosed : Origen in Matthae . Tracta. 1. for that he is Loosed in al the Heauens . Againe he saithe , Quod si nos idem loquimur , quod Petrus locutus est , efficimur Petrus . Et nobis dicetur , Tu es Petrus . Petra enim est , quisquis est Discipulus Christi : If wee speake the same , that Peter spake , wee are made Peter : And vnto vs it shal be saide , Thou arte Peter . For he is the Rocke , that is the Disciple of Christe .

And againe he saithe , In eodem Tractatu . Hoc dictum , Tibi dabo Claues Regni Coelorum , Coeteris quoque commune est . Et , quae sequuntur , velut ad Petrum dicta , sunt omnium Communia : This saieinge , To thee wil I geue the Keies of the Kingdome of Heauen , is common to the reste of the Apostles . And the woordes , that folow , as spoken vnto Peter , are common vnto al.

So saith S. Augustine , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta . 50. Basili . in Vtia Solitaria , Ca. 23. Petrus , quando accepit Claues , Ecclesiam Sanctam significauit : Peter , when he receiued the Keies , signified the Holy Churche . So saithe S. Basile , Petre , inquit , amas me● Pasce Oues meas : Et consequenter Omnibus Pastoribus , & Doctoribus eandem potestatem tribuit . Cuius signum est , quo'd omnes ex Aequo & ligant , & Absoluunt , quemadmodum ille : Christe saide vnto Peter , ●ouest thou me ? Feede my Sheepe . And in like sorte vnto Al Pastours , and Doctours he gaue the same Power . A token wherof is this , that al others Binde , & Loose Equally , as wel as he .

Likewise saithe S. Ambrose , Ambros . De Dign●ta . Sacerdotali , Cap. 2. Dominus dixit Petro , Pasce Oues meas . Quas Oues , & quem Gregem non solùm tune Beatus Petrus suscepit , sed & nobiscum eas suscepit : & cum illo cas nos suscepimus omnes : Our Lorde saide vnto Peter , Feede my Sheepe . Whiche Sheepe , and Flocke , not Onely Blessed Peter then receiued , but he receiued the sa ne togeather with vs : And al wee haue receiued the same togeather with him . Likewise S. Cyprian , Cyprian De Sim peicetrate Praetatorum . Beda in Homil. in ●uangel . Quem ine dicunt . Christus eandem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem : Christe gaue vnto al his Apostles like and Equal Power .

So likewise saithe Beda , Potestas Ligandi , & Soluendi , quamuis Soli Petro à Domino data videatur , tamen absque vlla dubietate noscendum est , quòd & Coeteris Apostolis data est : The Power of Bindinge , and Loosinge , notwithstanding it seeme to be geeuen Onely vnto peter , yet without al doubte wee muste vnderstande , that it was geeuen also to the reste of the Apostles .

Briefly , M. Hardinges owne Scholastical Doctours Confesse , that the Power of the Apostles was One , and Equal . But they saye , that the whole multitude of the Churche was committed onely vnto Peter : and not likewise to any other : and that therein onely standeth al the difference . Heruaeus De potestate Papae Cap. 12. Heruaeus saithe , Quamuis Apostoli eandem habuerint à Christo , & aequalem potestatem Clauium , & Iurisdictionis , tamen Iurisdictionem , Equal Power . siuè Materiam subiectam , non habuit , nisi Petrus , & cui eam Petrus committere voluit : Notwithstandinge the Apostles receiued of Christe equal Power of the Keies , and Iurisdiction , yet the Iurisdiction , or mater wherein to vse their Power , none had , but Onely Peter , and to whome so euer Peter woulde commit the same . And thus he imagineth , that al the Apostles , sauinge Onely Peter , had Keies geuen them , but no House to Open : and Iurisdiction , but no people to gouerne .

Verily Alphonsus de Castro saithe , Alphonsus Aduersus Haeres . Li. 2. De Absolutione . Quando absoluit Simplex Sacerdos , tantùm absoluit de Culpa , sicut Papa : When a Simple Prieste Absolueth , he absolueth as mutche , touchinge Sinne , as doothe the Pope .

But touchinge the Pope , howe greate so euer he fansie his Keie to be aboue al others , if he neuer vse the same , & if he either knowe not , or vtter not the Woorde of God , wee saie , as before , wel maie he shut vp the Kingedome of God before menne : Origen . in Matthae Tracta. 1. but open it he cannot . Origen saithe , Qui funibus Peccatorum suorum constringitur , frustrà vel Ligar , vel Soluit : He that is bounde with the bandes of his owne Sinnes , Bindeth and Looseth but in vaine .

To conclude , S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . De Agone Christiano Ca. 30. August . De Agone Christiano Ca. 31. Cùm Petro dicitur , Omnibus dicitur , Amas me ? Pasce Oues meas : These woordes of Christe , Louest thou mee ? Feede my Sheepe : when they are spoken vnto Peter , they are spoken vnto Al Priestes , or Ministers . He addeth further , traque miseri , dum in Petro Petram non intelligunt , & nolunt credere , datas Ecclesiae Claues Regni Coelorum , ipsi eas de manibus amiserunt : Therefore wretched menne , while in Peter they vnderstande not Christe that is ) the Rocke , and while they wil not beleeue , that the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen are geuen ( not vnto Peter alone , but ) vnto the Churche , they haue quite loste the Keies out of their handes .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 1.

Wee saie , that Matrimonie is Holy , and Honorable in al sortes and states of Personnes : as in the Patriarches , in the Prophetes , in the Apostles , in the Holy Martyrs , in the Ministers of the Churche , and in Bishoppes : & that it is an honest and lawful thinge ( as Chrysostome saithe ) for a man liuinge in Matrimonie , to take vpon him therewith the Dignitie of a Bishop .

M. Hardinge .

Matrimonie is Holy and Honorable in al persons , Hebre. 13. and an vndefiled bedde , as saithe S. Paule . Yet is it not lauful for them to marie * * Vntruthes , two togeather , as better appeareth by the Answeare . whiche either haue by deliberate vowe dedicated al maner their chastitie vnto God . Vntruthes , two togeather , as better appearcth by the answeare . or haue receiued Holy Order . For the vowed be forbidden Mariage by expresse Woorde of God : Those that haue taken Holy Orders , by Tradition of the Apostles , and Auncient ordinaunce of the Churche .

Touchinge the firste , Psal. 75. the Scripture is plaine : because a Vowe is to be performed , Vouete & reddite Domino Deo vestro : Vowe ye and paye ( or render that ye vowe ) to your Lorde God . Christe also saithe in the Gospel , Matth. 19. there be some Eunuches that haue made them selues Eunuches for the Kingedome of Heauens sake . He that can take , let him take . Againe S. Paule speakinge of younge Widowes , whiche haue vowed and promised Chastitie , saithe , that when they waxe wanton against Christe , they wil marie , The First Faith , S. Hierome expoundeth , The Faithe of Baptisme . See the Answeare . hauinge danmation , because they haue broken their firste Faithe . Whether these Scriptures perteine hereto , and be thus to be vnderstanded , we referre vs to the Primitiue Churche , and to al the Holy Fathers .

Sutche Mariages , or rather slidinges and falles from the holier Chastitie , that is Vowed to God , S. Augustine doubteth not but they be woorse then aduoutries . S. Cyprian calleth this case plaine inceste . S. Basile accompteth the mariages of vailed virgins to be voide , of no force , and Sacrilegious .

She that hath despoused her selfe to our Lorde ( saithe S. Basile ) is not free . For her husbande is not deade , that shee maye marie to whome she liste . And whiles her immortal husbande liueth , shee shal be called an Aduoutresse , whiche for lustes of the Fleashe hath brought a mortal man into our Lordes Chamber .

Touchinge the seconde , Clerkes bounde to continencie . Lib. 1. C. 11. Paphoutius Li. 1. Ca. 23. the Apostles forbidde those , that come single to the Cleregie , to marie , excepte suche as remaine in the inferiour Orders , and procede not to the greater , as we finde in their Canons : Can 25. Paphnutius , as Socrates , and Sozomenus recorde in their Ecclesiastical storie , saide at the Nicene Councel , that it was an Olde Tradition of the Churche , that suche as come to the Degree or Order of Priesthood single , should not marie wiues . And this is that Holy Bishop Paphnutius , whome these Euangelicall Vowebreakers pretende to be their proctour for theire vnlauful Mariages .

Reade who liste the Epistle of Siricius ad Himerium Tarraconensem , Cap. 7. This Pope Siricius shamefully abeseth the woordes of S. Paule and condemneth al Marriage . the seconde Epistle of Innocentius to Victricius Bishop of Roen , Cap. 9. and his thirde Episitle to Exuperius B. of Tolouse , Cap. 1. And weighi●ge wel these places , he shal perceiue , that these Holy Popes forbad the Ministers of the Churche the vse of Wedlocke by the same Reason , by whiche the Priestes of Moses Lawe were forebidden to come within their owne houses in the time , when their course came to serue in the Holy Ministeries . 1. Corin. 7. By the same reason also by whiche S. Paule requireth maried folke for a time to forbeare the vse of their wiues , that they might attende Prayinge .

The place of Chrysostome , Answere to Chrysostomes place . In. 1. Cap. ad Timo. Homil. 2. alleaged by this Defender , wel considered , disproueth no parte of the Catholike Doctrine in this behalfe , but condemneth bothe the Doctrine , and common Practise of his companions these newe fleashly Gospellers . His woordes be these vpon the saieinge of S. Paule , that a Bishop ought to be without crime , the Husbande of one wife . The Apostle ( saithe he ) stoppeth the mouthes of Heretikes , whiche condemne mariage , she winge , that it is not an vncleane thinge , but so reuerend that with the same a man maye Ascende to the Holy throne or seate ( he meaneth the state of a Bishop ) and herewith he Chastiseth and restraineth the Vnchaste persons , not permittinge them , who haue twise maried , to attaine suche a roume . Twise married maye not be Bishopes , and why . For whereas he kepeth no beneuolence towarde his wife * * Vntruthe . For M. Hardinge fowly mistaketh S. Chrysostomes meaninge . deceased , how can he be a good gouernour ? yea what greeuous accusations shal not he be subiecte vnto daielie ? For ye al knowe righte wel , that albeit by the lawes the seconde Mariages be permitted , yet that mater lieth open to many accusations . And therefore he would a Bishop to geue no occasion ( of euil ) to those that be vnder him . He putteth begamie , * * Vntruthe : standigne in false exposition . that is to witte , maryinge an other after the firste or a Widowe , to be lauful rather then commendable .

So we see the impure Bigamie of our Holy Gospellers condemned bothe by Chrysostome , and S. Paule , of whome many beinge Priestes , and ( as they saye ) Bishops , at least presuminge to occupie that Holy seate , for custodie of their Chastitie , after their former olde yoke fellowes decease , solace them selues with newe Strompetes . Strompetes . By a better name I would cal them , If I wishe I shoulde not offende . For what woman so euer coupleth her selfe in suche damnable yokinge , how can she appeare either to be honest , or to haue care of her soule Healthe ? As for the simple that be deceiued by the importunitie and crafte of those lurdens , as they are not to be borne withal , so yet I thinke them to be pitied .

But if this Defender Presse vs with Chrysostome , we answeare , that though Chrysostome graunte , that a maried man maie ascende to the holy seate , yet he saithe not , that a man maye descende from that Holy seate to the Bride Bedde . After holy orders receiued , mariage neuer coumpted lawful amonge Catholikes . Priest● maried in Englande in the time of Anselmus . For wee denie vtterly , that any man after that he hath receiued holy Orders , maie marie . * * Vntruthe : For it was vndoubtedly coumpted lawful . Neither can it be shewed , that the mariage of suche was euer accompted lawful in the Catholike Churche . In deede we knowe that in Germanie and in Englande and certaine other Prouinces at dissolute times , when the Discipline of the Churche was shaken of , Priestes haue benne maried , as we reade of the time in whiche Anselinus was Bishop of Cantorbury . But that disorder was alwaies by * * That is by allowinge of Concubines . due correction of Bishoppes punished , and readressed .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , I graunte , M. Hardinge is like to finde some good aduantage , as hauinge vndoubtedly a greate number of the Holy Fathers of his side . For Single life in the eies of Politique wise menne , for many causes seemeth woorthie of fauoure . But , good Christian Reader , that thou maiste be the better hable to see , and iudge , how vprightly , & indifferently the Fathers haue dealte herein , either in the auancinge of Virginitie , Marriage Condemned . or els in the disgracinge of Lawful Matrimonie , it maie please thée to consider the fourme , and manner of their saieinges .

In déede Origen saithe , Origen . in Epist. ad Roman . Cap. 12. Lib. 9. Hierony . in Malachi . Ca. 2. Vos autem recessistis . Potest aliquis de Castitate plus sapere , quàm oporteat sapere : A man maie thinke more of Chastitie , then is conuenient . Likewise saithe S. Hierome , Declinare ad Dextram , est abstinere à Cibis , quos Deus creauit , & Condemnare Matrimonium : & incurrere in illud , quod dictum est , Noli iustus esse nimiùm : To turne to the righte hande , is to absteine from meates , whiche God hath made , and to condemne Matrimonie : and to false into the daunger of the Woordes written by the Wiseman , Neuer be ouer iuste .

Firste therefore Tertullian in the disproufe of Matrimonie saithe thus : Eccle. 7. Tertull. In exhorta . ad Castitatem . Eodem loco . Ecquid tibi videtur Stupri affine esse Matrimonium ? Quoniam in illo deprehendo , quae stupro competunt : Doest not thou thinke , that Matrimonie is like vnto Fornication ? Certainely I finde the same thiinges in the One , that I finde in the Other . Farther he saithe : Ergo , inquies , iam & Primas , id est , vnas Nuptias destruis . Nec immeritò : Quoniam & ipsae ex eo constant , quod est stuprum : Then , thou wilte saie , thou condemnest also the firste Marriage . Yea verily , and not without cause : For bothe Matrimonie , and Fornication consiste bothe of one thinge . Chrysostome saithe , Haec ipsa Coniunctio Maritalis malum est ante Deum , Chrysost. in Matthae . Homi. 1. Non dico , Peccatum , sed malum : The very Copulation of Matrimonie is an euil thinge before God . I saie not , It is Sinne : but I saie , It is an euil thinge . And yet immediately after he saithe , Si in Maritis , & Adulteris vna est libido , quomodò potest fieri , vt vna , eademque res pro dimidia parte sit Iustitia , pro dimidia autem sit Peccatum ? Aut enim tota est Iustitia , aut rota est Peccatum : Quia res Vna est : If the Married man , and the Aduouterer haue one kinde of pleasme , how can it be , that one and the selfe same thinge , for the one halfe shoulde be Righteousnesse , and for the other halfe shoulde be Sinne ? Either it is al Sinne , or al Righteousnesse : For the thinge it selfe is One .

S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . aduer. Iouinian , Lib. 1. Ibidem . Si bonum est , mulierem non tangere , malum est ergo tangere . Nihil enim Bono contrarium est , nisi Malum : If it be good for a man not to touche his wife , then is it euil to touche his wife . For there is nothinge contrarie to Good , but Euil . Againe he saithe , Quàm diu impleo Mariti officium , non impleo Christiani : As longe , as I doo the duetie of a Husbande , I doo not the duetie of a Christian man . Againe , Non negamus Viduas , non negamus Maritatas Sanctas Mulieres inueniri . Sed quae Vxores esse desierint : Hieronym . Contra Heluidium . quae in ipsa necessitate Coniugij Virginum imitentur castitatem : Wee denie not , but Widowes , and married wemen maie be Holy . But sutche as haue leafte , and foresaken wiues dueties , and in the very necessitie of Matrimonie doo countrefeite the Chastitie , that is in Maidens .

The like accoumpte wée maie make of sundrie others : These fewe maye suffice for this presente .

Nowe , thouchinge the marriage of Widowers , and Widowes , a greate many of the Ancient Fathers séeme expressely , and vtterly to condemne it .

Athenagoras saithe , Athenagoras in Apologia pro Christianis . Hieronym . ad Ceron●iam . Hieronym . contra Iouinian . Lib. 1. In eod. Libr● . Secundae Nuptiae decorum quoddam sunt Adulterium : The Seconde Marriage ( of Widowers , or Widowes ) is a faire kinde of Aduouterie . And S. Hierome calleth Widowes so married , Harlottes , and Naughty Weemen , Malas , & Prostitutas : And saithe , Digamia non nascitur in terra bona : Seconde Marriage groweth not in good soile . Againe he saithe , Tolerabilius est , vni prostitutam esse , quàm multis : More tolerable it is , to be Concubine vnto one , then vnto many . Againe , Vbi numerus maritorum est , ibi vir , qui propriè vnus est , esse desijt : Where as there is a number of Husbandes , there the husbande , that in proper speache is but one , is no Husbande . Likewise againe , Non damno Digamos . Etiam Scortatorem recipio Poenitentem . Quicquid aequaliter licet , aequa lance pensandum est : I condemne not Widowers , or Widowes , that haue married againe . No , Seconde Marriage . I refuse not the Fornicatoure vpon his repentance . Bishops and Priestes married . What so euer is equally lawful , muste be weighed in One ballance .

Nazianzenus saithe , Nazian. In dictum Euang. Cum perfecisset Iesus . Origen . in Lucam . Homil. 19. Hieronym . De Scriptor . Eccle. Sozomen . Lib. 1. Cap. 11. Hilarius . Nicephor . Li. 11. Cap. 19. Ruffinus , Lib. 2. Cap. 9. Nazianzen . In Laudem Patris : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Prosper . Euseb. li. 6. ca. 42. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Euseb. li. 5. ca. 25. Nouell . Constitu . 3. § finali : E Graeco . Ignat. ad Philadelphien . Clemens Stromat . 3 Euseb. li 3. ca 30 Origen in Epist. ad Roman . Ca. 1. Lib. 1. Ambros . in 2. Corin. 11. Clemens Stroma . Lib. 7. Hieronym . Aduer . Iouinian . Lib. 1. Distin. 37. Legaxt . Dist. 56. Osius . Hic sermo videtur mihi reijcere Secundas nuptias , Si enim Duo sunt Christi , Duo item sunt mariti , & Duae vxotes : This saieinge seemeth to condemne Seconde Marriage . For if there be Twoo Christes , then one there Twoo Husbandes , and Twoo Wiues . Origen saithe , Nunc & Secundae , & Tertiae , & Quartae nuptiae repetuntur : & non ignoramus , quòd tale coniugium eijciet nos de Regno Dei : Nowe the Seconde , and Thirde , and Fourthe Marriage is receiued . And wee knowe , that sutche Marriage shal caste vs out of the kingedome of God .

By these fewe examples wée maie sée , It was harde for these Holy Learned Fathers , in so large Amplifications of Praisinge , or Dispraisinge , to holde measure . Yet al those vehemente woordes , and Amplifications notwithstandinge , partely the same , partely other the like Holy , and Learned Fathers , bothe vsed Marriage them selues in theire owne Personnes , and also otherwise wrote , and spake thereof with greate reuerence .

Tertullian , as S. Hierome witnesseth , was a Married Prieste . Spiridion the Bishop of Cyprus , sometime famouse in the Councel of Nice , was married , and had Children . So was S. Hilarie the Bishop of Poit●rs , as appeareth by his Epistle to his Daughter Abra.

So was Gregorie S. Basiles brother the Bishop of Nyssa . So was Gregorie the Bishop of Nazianzum , Father vnto Gregorie Nazianzene , as appeareth by Ruffinus . Yet was he neuerthelesse a Faithful Seruante , and a Stewarde of the Mysteries of God : A man of Spiritual desires : The God of Pharao : the Piller , and Buttresse of the Churche : and the starre of the worlde . For in sutche wise his owne Sonne Gregorie Nazianzene reporteth of him . Sutche a one was he , his Wife , and Familie notwithstandinge . So was Prosper of Aquitania the Bishop of Rhegium , as it appeareth by his Epigramme written vnto his wife : Mearum Comes irremota rerum .

So was the Holy Father Cheremon the Bishop of Nilus : Who , as Eusebius writeth , was sente into bannishment with his Wife . So Polycrates beinge likewise a Bishop , sometime saide , that seuen of his Fathers , or Ancesters had benne Bishoppes . The Greeke woorde is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ruffinus translateth it , Patres . Iustinianus the Emperour séemeth the more to estéeme Epiphanius the Bishop of Constantinople , for that his Father , and other his Ancesters had benne Priestes , and Bishoppes .

Ignatius S. Iohn the Euangelistes Scholar saithe , Peter , and other the Apostles of Christe were married menne . So writeth Clemens Alexandrinus : So writeth Eusebius . Origen saithe , That S. Paule , and his Wife were called to the Faithe , bothe at one time . S. Ambrose saithe , Omnes Apostoli , excepto Iohanne , & Paulo , vxores habuerunt : Al the Apostles had wiues , onely Iohn , and Paule excepted . Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , Perfecti Christiani Edunt , Bibunt , contrahunt Matrimonium : They that be perfite Christian menne , doo Eate , and Drinke , and contracte Matrimonie . S. Hierome writinge againste Iouinian , saithe thus , Quasi non hodiè quoque plurimi Sacerdotes habeant Matrimonia : As though nowe a daies verie many Priestes were not Married . And therefore he saithe , as he is alleged by Gratian , Legant Episcopi , & Presbyteri , qui Filios suos saecularibus literis erudiunt : Let Bishoppes , and Priestes reade these thinges , that bringe vp their Children in worldly learninge , ( and not in the Scriptures of God . )

Pope Damasus sheweth vs , that a greate number of Bishoppes of Rome were Priestes Sonnes : As Pope Syluerius : Pope Deusdedit : Pope Adrianus . 2 : Pope Iohn . 15 : Pope Felix . 3 : Pope Hosius : Pope Agapetus : Pope Gelasius : Pope Bonifacius : Bishops Married . Pope Iohn 10 : Pope Theodorus . And concludeth thus , Complures etiam alij inueniuntur , qui de Sacerdotibus nati Apostolicae Sedi Praefuerunt : Many others biside there are founde , that beinge Priestes Sonnes ruled the Apostolique See of Rome . Aeneas Syluius De gestis Concil. Basihen . Lib. 2. Pope Pius saithe , A married man , hauinge his wife aliue maie be chosen Pope . His woordes be these : Cur enim disputant Doctòres , an Electus in Papam vxori suae debitum soluere teneatur , &c. For wherefore doo the Canonistes moue this doubte , Whether a man being chosen Pope be bounde to yelde marriage duetie to his wife , onlesse a married man maie be chosen to that roume ? Polydorus in Historia Anglor . Lib. 6. Anno. Dom. 970. Polydorus De Inuentoribus rer. Lib. 5. An. Dom. 1100. Fabian , Pag. 293. Polydorus Vergilius saithe , that the restrainte of Priestes Marriage was firste attempted in Englande aboute the yéere of Our Lorde Neenehundred three score and tenne : and that the same was afterwarde concluded in the Weaste Churche aboute the yeere of Our Lorde a thousande and a hundred , and neuer before .

Fabian saithe , that Bishoppes , and Priestes liued a thousande yeeres togeather with theire Wiues , no lawe beinge to the contrarie .

These twoo Principles beinge thus laide , the one of immoderate , and extraordinarie spéeches of the Holy Fathers , the other of the continual , and Ordinarie Practise of the Churche , wee maie nowe be the better hable to consider the Substance of M. Hardinges reasons .

Firste of al , his Obiection of Vowes nothinge toucheth the Cleregie of Englande . For it is knowen , and Confessed , that the Priestes of Englande were neuer Votaries .

Yet for further answeare , wée graunte , it is reason , and conuenient , that who so hath made a Vowe vnto God , shoulde keepe his promise . Cyrillus saithe , Si Castitatem Promiserit , Cyrill . in Leuiticum Lib. 3. & seruare non poterit , pronuntier Peccatum suum : If he haue promised , or Vowed Chastitie , and cannot keepe it , let him pronounce , and confesse his Sinne .

How be it , touchinge Virginitie , or Chastitie , wée saie , It standeth not in our Choise , Matthae . 19. Iustinus Apologia . 2. or Vowe , but in the singulare gifte of God . Christe him selfe saithe , Al menne take not this Woorde : but they , vnto whome it is geeuen . Iustinus Martyr saithe , Multi castrauerunt se propter Regnum Coelorum . Verùm hoc non cuius datum est : Many haue ghelded themselues for the Kingedome of Heauen . But this thinge is not geeuen to al menne . 32. q. 1. Integritas . Hieronym . in . Matthae . Ca. 19. S. Ambrose saithe , Sola Virginitas est , quae suaderi potest : imperari non potest : Onely Virginitie is a thinge , that maie be Counselled : but commaunded it maie not be . So S. Hierome , Vnde infert Dominus , Qui potest capere , capiat : vt vnusquisque consideret vires suas : vtrùm possit Virginalia , & pudicitiae praecepta implere . Perse enim Castitas blande est , & quemlibea ad se alliciens . Setd considerandae sunt vires : vt , qui potest capere , capiat . Our Lorde addeth , He that can take , let him take : That euery man maie consider his owne strengthe , whether he be hable to accomplishe the Lawes of Virginitie , and Chastitie . For Chastitie of it selfe is faire , and pleasante , and hable to alluere any man vnto it selfe . But wee muste weighe our habilitie : That he maie take it , that can take it .

Hereof the Anciente Father Origen began to complaine so longe agoe in his time : Origen . in Matthae . Tracta. 24. Non solùm , quae docent , non faciunt , sed etiam crudeliter , & sine misericordia iniungunt alijs maiora virtute ipsorum , non habentes rationem Virium vniuscuiusque : vt , qui prohibent nubere , & ab eo , quod expedit , ad immoderatam munditiem compellunt : Not onely they doo not , that they teache , but also crueily , and without mercie they commaunde others , to doo , that they be not hable , not consideringe , or weighinge eche mannes strengthe . Sutche be they , that forbidde menne to marrie : and from that thinge , that is lawful , driue , and force menne to an immoderate kinde of Cleanenesse . S. Hierome saithe , Gifte of Chastitie . Si quis consideret Virginem suam , Hieronym . Aduersus Iouinian . Lib. 1. id est , Carnem suam , vowes lasciuire , & ebullire in libidinem , nec refraenare se potest , duplex illi incumbit necessitas , aut capiendae coniugis , aut ruendi : If any man consider that his owne Virgine , that is to saie , his owne Fleashe , groweth prowde , and boileth vnto luste , and cannot staie it , there is laide vpon him a double necessitie , either to take a wife , or to falle .

In this case S. Cyril saithe , Cyrill . in Leuiticum , Lib 16. Oportet compati , & commetiri doctrinam pro virium qualitate : & huiusmodi , qui non possunt capere Sermonem de Castitate , concedere nuptias : Wee muste haue consideration of menne , and measure our doctrine accordinge to euery mannes habilitie : and vnto sutche menne , as cannot take the woorde of Chastitie , wee ought to graunte Marriage .

If M. Hardinge wil Replie ▪ that this Counsel maie take place in al others , but not in them , that haue Vowed , or Promised the contrarie , lette him vnderstande his owne rule , 22. Quae. 4. In malis . written in the Popes owne Decrees : In malis promissis rescinde fidem : In turpi Voto muta decretum . Quod incautè vouisti , ne facias . Impia est Promissio , quae sc●lere impletur : In an euil promise breake thy Faithe : In an vnhonest Vowe change thy pourpose . That thou haste vnaduisedly vowed , see thou doo it not . It is an euil promisse , that is keapte with wickednesse .

S. Cyprian hauinge occasion to write of certaine Maides , Cyprian . Lib. 1. Epist. 11. that had vowed Virginitie , and liued in disorder , saithe thus : Quòd si perseuerare nolunt , vel non possunt , melius est , vt nubant , quàm vt in ignem delicijs suis cadant . Certè nullum Fratribus , aut Sororibus scūdalum faciant : If they either cannot , or wil not contrinewe , better it is for them to marrie , then to falle into the fire ( of Helle ) with their pleasures . At the least , let them breede no sclaunder to their Brothers , or Sisters .

S. Augustine saithe , August . De Bono Coniugali , Dist. 27. Quidam . Quidam nubentes post votum , asserunt Adulteros esse . Ego autem dico vobis , quod grauiter peccant , qui tales diuidunt : Some menne there be , that saie , They be Aduouterers , that marrie after that they haue made a Vowe . But I telle you , that they Sinne greuously , that put sutche asunder .

Epiphanius likewise saithe , Epiphan. contra Apostolic . Lib 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Melius est , Vnum habere Peccatum , quàm multa . Melius est cadentem à stadio apertè sibi vxorem asciscere secundum Leges , &c. Et à Virginitate longo tempore agere Poenitentiam , &c. Et non quotidiè occultis iaculis vuluerari : Better it is , to haue one Sinne , then many Sinnes . Better it is , for a man fallinge from his course , openly to take vnto him a wife accordinge to the Lawe , &c. And a longe time to repente him selfe of the breache of his Virginitie , &c. And not to be wounded with priuie dortes euerie daie .

S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . ad Virginem Demetriadem . Sanctum Virginum Propofitum , & Coelestis , Angelorumque familiae Gloriam quarundam non bene se agentium nomen infamat . Quibus apertè dicendum est , vt aut nubant , si se non possunt continere : aut contineant , si nolunt nubere : The name of certaine Virgins not wel behauinge them selues , defameth , and shameth the Holy pourpose of Virgins , and the Glorie of the Heauenly , and Angelical P●n●lie . Whome wee muste plainely charge , that either they Marrie , if they cannot Conteine : or that they Conteine , if they wil not Marrie .

To like purpose S. Augustine saithe : August . De Sancta Virginitate , Cap. 34. Multas earum reuocat à nubendo , non amor praeclati propositi , sed aperti dedecotis timor , veniens & ipse à Superbia : qua formidatur , hominibus magis displicere , quàm Deo . Nubere nolunt : & ideò non nubunt , quia impunè non possunt : quae meliùs nuberent , quàm vrerentur , id est , quàm occulta flamma concupiscentiae in ipsa conscientia vastarentur : quas poenitet Professionis , & piget Confessionis : Many of them are keapte from Marriage , not for loue of their goodly pourpose of Virginitie , but for feare of open shame , which shame also proceedeth of Pride : for that they are more afraide to displease Man ▪ then God . They wil not marrie : and therefore they marrie not , bicause they cannot without rebuke , Yet better were it for them to marrie , then to burne , that is to saie , then with the flame of their Concupiscence in their owne Conscience to be wasted . They are soary of their Profession : And yet it greeueth them to Confesse . &c. Vowes .

It is not sufficient to saie , Marke 6. I haue Vowed . Herode Vowed Iohn Baptistes heade : Actor . 23. The Iewes Vowed S. Paules death : Hubaldus , as it is noted by Gratian in the Decrees , 22. Quae. 4. Inter coetera . made a Vowe , that he would neuer healpe his owne Mother , or Brethren , were their néede neuer so greate .

Alphonsus de Castro , Alphonsus Philippica . 19. one of M. Hardinges greatest Doctours , saithe thus : Si quis Vouerit , & continere non possit , & omnia expertus , nihil promouerit , ego illi author essem , non vt proprio Consilio , sed vt authoritate Pontificis saluti suae consulat per Matrimonium : If any man haue Vowed , and Cannot conteine , and hauinge assaied al meanes , yet be neuer the neare , I would aduise him , that he should prouide for the safetie of his Soule by Marriage : And yet not of his owne Counsel , but by licence , and authoritie of the Pope .

Likewise Thomas of Aquine saithe , Thomas 22. q. 88 Arti. 10. Potest contingere , quòd in aliquo casu sit , vel simpliciter malum , vel inutile , vel Maioris boni impeditiuum . Et ideo necesse est , quòd determinetur , in tali casu , Votum non esse seruandum : It maie happen , that in somme case a Vowe maie be , either vtterly il , or vnprofitable , or an hinderance vnto somme other good thinge of more weight . And therefore it muste of necessitie be determined , that in sutche a case a Vowe ought not to be keapte . Therefore it was thus decreed in the Councel of Toledo : Concil. Toletan . 8. Can. 2. Non est seruandum Sacramentum , quod malè , & incautè promittitur : A Vowe il , and vnaduisedly promised , ought not to be keapte .

Heere , M. Hardinge , ye crie out in your inordinate heate , Fleashely Gospellers : Euangelical Vowebreakers : Impure Bigamie : Filthy railinge rabble : Lordaines : Strumpettes : & I wote not , what : as if this were the onely waie , to winne the Victorie . Vnto this kinde of eloquence I wil make you none other answeare , then that Demetrius sometime made vnto Lysimachus : Scortum apud nos modestiùs viuit , quàm apud vos Penelope : One of these , whome it liketh you , to calle Strumpettes , liueth more soberly emongest vs , then dooth emongest you your Chaste Penelope .

It appeareth by S. Augustine , M. Hardinge , that your errour is Ancient , and beganne longe agoe . For he saithe , that euen then in his time there were somme , that maineteined the same . But he answeared them then , as wée doo you nowe , They spake fondly , and vnaduisedly : and vnderstoode not , what they saide . His woordes be these , August . De Bono Viduitatis , Cap. 10. Qui dicunt , talium Nuptias non esse Nuptias , sed potiùs Adulteria , mihi non videntur satis acutè , ac diligenter considerare , quid dicant : They that saie , The Marriage of sutche menne , or wemen , ( as haue Vowed Chastitie ) is no Marriage , but rather Aduouterie , seeme vnto me not to consider discretely , and wisely , what they saie . And againe , Fit per hanc minùs consideratam opinionem , In eod. Capite . vt cùm volunt eas separatas reddere Continentiae , faciant Maritos earum Adulteros Veros , cùm suis Vxoribus viuis , alteras duxerint : It commeth to passe by this Vnaduised Opinion , that whereas they wil remooue these weemen , that so haue Vowed , from their Husbandes , and force them to continewe in their Single Life , they make the Husbandes of them Aduouterers in deede , in case they marrie againe , their owne Wiues beinge stil aliue .

Thus therefore , M. Hardinge , you maie imagine , S. Augustine saithe vnto you , as he did vnto them : Ye speake fondely , and vnaduisedly , and vnderstande not , what ye speake .

And yet one of your Companions there telleth vs , Dorman fol. 16. that he is vndoubtedly the Diuelles Minister , that wil saie , as S. Augustine saithe , that the Marriage of sutche personnes is true , and verie Marriage . Thus by the Iudgemente of your late Louanian Cleregie , S. Augustine is becomme the Minister of the Diuel .

But M. Hardinge hath further to saie , that S. Augustine calleth this kinde of marriage Woorse then Aduouterie : An other calleth it Inceste : & an other Sacrilege . That the Ancient Fathers haue thus written , it is true , & not denied . How be it , Woorse then Aduouterie . good Reader , as I haue partely shewed before , these , and other like woordes haue procéeded , more of a zele , and heate of minde , then of profounde consideration , and Iudgemente of the cause . Neither maie wée alwaies straine sutche saicinges to the vttermoste . For whereas S. Augustine saithe , Sutche Marriage is woorse , then Aduouterie , he saithe neuerthelesse immediately after in the same place , It is true , and very Marriage in deede before God , and Man , and no Aduouterie . His woordes be these : August . De Bono Viduitatis , Ca. 9. Non quòd ipsae Nuptiae vel talium damnandae iudicentur . Damnatur Propositi fraus : Damnatur fracta Voti Fides : &c. Damnantur tales , non quia Coniugalem Fidem posteriùs inierunt , sed quia Continentiae Primam Fidem irritam fecerunt : Not that the Marriage of sutche personnes is to be blamed . The defraudinge of theire pourpose , and the breache of theire Vowe is blamed . Sutche are blamed , not for that they haue entred into the Faithe of Matrimonie : but for that they haue broken their Firste Faithe , or promisse of continente Life . So likewise S. Augustine saithe of a Woman , August . De Doctrina Christiana , Lib. 4. Ca. 21. that vsed to painte her face : Etsi impudica circa homines non sis , tamen corruptis , violatisque , quae Dei sunt , Peior Adultera detineris : Although thou be no euil woman , as touchinge menne , yet thus colouringe , and corruptinge thy face , whiche thou haste of God , thou arte woorse then an Aduoutresse . Here , by waie of comparison , and in heate of speeche , S. Augustine saithe . That paintinge of the face is woorse then Aduouterie . Cyprian . De singularitate Clericorum . In like sense S. Cyprian saithe , Diabolo peior est , qui foeminarum aspectibus feritur : He that is striken , or moued with the sighte of Wemen , is woorse then the Diuel . Likewise againe he saithe , Multò grauior , & Peior est Moechi causa , Cyprian . Lib. 4. Epist. 2. quàm Libellatici : An Aduouterers case is woorse , then is the case of him , that hath betraied the Faithe .

Sutche comparisons , as I haue saide , maie not wel be rackte to al pourposes : but must be taken so far foorthe onely , as they were meante . Otherwise the same S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . De Singularitate Clericorum . Peius est , quam moechari , Continentiam ducere criminosam : To liue Vnchastely vnder the coloure of Chaste life ( as your Cleregie dooeth ) is woorse then Aduouterie . Here , M. Hardinge , S. Cyprian saithe , that your vnchaste Chastitie , and coloured Vaunte of Virginitie is woorse then Aduouterie .

So S. Ambrose , when he had saide , If shée haue a minde to marrie , shée committeth Aduouterie , shée is made the Handmaide of Deathe , He addeth further , as of a greater euil , Ambros . Ad Virginem Lapsam , Cap 5. Si hoc ita est , quid de illa dicendum est , quae occulta , & fortiua turpitudine constupratur , & fingit , se esse , quod non est ? Bis Adultera est : This beinge so , what then shal wee saie of her , that is defiled with secrete , and priuie filthinesse : and faineth her selfe to be , that in deede shee is not ? Shee is twise an Aduoutresse . Here S. Ambrose calleth your painted Virginitie Double Aduouterie . So S. Chrysostome , Virginitas ista cum Viris plùs ab omnibus arguitur , Chrysost. to . 5. Quòd Regulares Foeminae cum Viris cohabitent . quàm stuprum ipsum : This Virginitie of Weemen emongest menne , is more reprooued of al menne , then Fornication it selfe .

By these fewe wée maie the better vnderstande the place , that M. Hardinge hath here alleaged , of S. Paule vnto Timothee . 1. Timot. 5. When they waxe wanton against Christe , they wil marrie , hauinge damnation , bicause they haue broken their Firste Faithe . Notwithstandinge in deede S. Paule spake these woordes , neither of Vowes , nor of Vowebreakers : but of the Widowes , that were appointed to attende vpon the Olde , and sicke personnes , and therefore were reliued , and founde by the Churche .

But let vs imagine , as M Hardinge would haue vs , that S. Paule spake al this of the breache of Vowes . And let Prima Fides , The Firste Faithe , be the Vowe of Chastitie . How be it in deede our Firste Faithe is the Faithe , that wée promise in Baptisme , Hierony . in Proc●●nto in Epist. ad Titum . and none other . And so S. Hierome seemeth to take it . For thus he writeth , Non s●nt digni Fide , qui Primam Fidem irritam fecerunt : Marcionem loquor , & Basilidem : They be not woorthy to be beleeued , that haue foresaken their Firste Faithe : I meane Marcion , and Basilides . These two famouse Heretiques Marcion , and Basilides , Vow annexed &c. were not condemned for breakinge any Vowe of Chastitie , but for refusinge the Faithe of Christe : whiche S. Hierome calleth , The Firste Faithe .

S. Paule maketh no mention of any Vowe , but onely rebuketh sutche light , & waueringe Wemen , as beinge of longe time founde by the Charges of the Congregation , pourposely to reliue the sicke , and the feeble , afterwarde foresooke bothe the Congregation , and Christe too , and became Heathens , and folowed the Diuel . For so S. Paule saithe , Nonnullae iam deflexerunt post Satanam : Many sutche wemen are already gonne after Sathan . But if S. Paule spake this of the breache of Vowes , with what eies then , M. Hardinge , doo you reade his woordes ? Or what aduantage can you hope to finde in sutche Authorities , as doo so expressely crie againste your selfe ? 1. Timoth. 5. S. Paule saithe euen there , in the same place , Vidua eligatur non minor annis sexaginta . Iuniores Viduas reijce . Volo iuniores Viduas nubere : liberos gignere : domum administrare : nullam occasionem dare Aduersario , vt habeat maledicendi causam : Let no Widowe be chosen vnder threescore yeeres of age . Refuse yonge widowes . I wil , that yonge widowes be married : bringe vp theire Children : ouersee theire house : and geue no occasion to the aduersarie to speake il .

If these woordes of S. Paule muste déedes be taken of Vowes , and none otherwise , why doo you so violently , contrarie to S. Paules commaundemente , either force , or suffer yonge Maides , and girles to receiue these Vowes ? Why doo ye not staie them vntil they be striken in age , that they maie be thréescore yeeres Olde , before they Vowe ? It is no reason , ye should in one place claime by one Woorde , and breake so many .

You saie , Fol. 79. b. The Vowe of Chastitie is annexed vnto Holy Orders by the Ancient Constitution of the Churche , and by the Apostles of Christe . For trial of your truthe herein , I beséeche you , to consider these sewe in stéede of many .

Your owne allowed , 26. q. 2. Sors . and principal Doctour Gratian saithe thus , Copula Sacerdotalis , vel consanguineorum , nec Legali , nec Euangelica , nec Apostolica authoritate prohibetur : Priestes marriage is not forebidden by any Authoritie , either of the Lawe of Moses , or of the Gospel , or of the Apostles .

Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , Clemens Stromat . Lib. 3. Omnes Apostoli Epistolae , quae moderationem docent , & continentiam , cùm & de Matrimonio , & de Liberorum procreatione , & de domus administratione innumerabilia praecepta contineant , nunquam tamen honestum , moderatumque Matrimonium prohibuerunt : Al the Epistles of the Apostle , whiche teache sobrietie , and continente life , whereas they conteine innumerable Preceptes touchinge Matrimonie , bringinge vp of Children , and gouernemente of House , yet they neuer forebade Honeste , and sober Marriage .

Car●inal Caictanus saithe , Cardin. Caletan . in Quodlibetis Contra Lutherum . Nec ratione , nec authoritate probari potest , quòd , absolutè loquendo , Sacerdos peccet contrahendo Matrimonium . Nam nec Ordo , in quantum Ordo , nec Ordo , in quantum Sacer , est impeditiuus Matrimonij . Siquidem Sacerdotium non dirimit Matrimonium contractum , siue antè , siue pòst : seclusis omnibus Legibus Ecclesiasticis : stando tantùm ijs , quae habemus à Christo , & Apostolis : It cannot be proued , neither by reason , nor by Authoritie , speakinge absolutely , that a Prieste sinneth in marrieinge a wife . For neither the Order of Priesthoode , in that it is Order , nor the same Order , in that it is Holy , is any hinderance to Matrimonie . For Priesthoode breaketh not Marriage , whether it be contracted before Priesthoode , or afterwarde : settinge al Ecclisiastical Lawes aparte , and standinge onely vnto those thinges , that wee haue of Christe , and his Apostles .

Abbate Panormitane saithe , Panormitan . De Clericus Coniuga . Cùm Olim. Antonin . in Summa , Par. 3. Ti 1 Ca. 21. Continentia non est de Substantia Ordinis , nec de Iure Diuino : Single life is not of the substance of the Order of Priesthoode , nor of the Lawe of God .

Likewise Antoninus saithe , Episcopatus ex Natura sua non habet opponi ad Matrimonium : The office , or Degree of a Bishop , of the Substance of Nature of it selfe is not contrarie to Matrimonie . Letteth Praier . Hereby ye maie easily sée , M. Hardinge , howe true it is , that you saie , The Vowe of Chastitie is annexed to Holy Orders , and that by the Apostles Ancient Constitution .

But this Order , you saie , was taken , for that , hauinge the vse of Wedlocke wée cannot Praie . And to that ende ye allege the Authoritie of S. Paule : Where also ye might haue alleged the names and saieinges of sundrie Fathers . Origen . in Numer . Homil. 7. Extra . De Probationib . In Glossa . Origen saithe , The Holy Ghoste in time of Copulation forsaketh a man , yea although he were the Prophete of God . An other saithe , Virginitas Sola potest animas hominum praesentare Deo : Onely Virginitie is hable to presente the Soule of man vnto God . S. Hierome saith . Quotiescunque vxori debitum reddo , orare non possum : As often as I doo my duetie to my wife , I cannot Praie . And to this pourpose Pope Siricius vndiscretely , & fondely abuseth the Holy Woorde of God . Hierony . Aduer . Iouinian . Lib. 1. Inter Decreta Siricij , Cap 7. Rom. 8. Thus he saithe , Qui in Carne sunt , Deo placere non possunt : They that be in the Pleashe , cannot please God .

These woordes séeme very harde , & sounde mutche to the derogation of Goddes Ordinance . And therefore Ignatius S. Iohns Scholare saithe , Si quis Legitimam Commixtionem , & Filiorum procreationem Corruptionem , & Coinquinationem vocat , ille habet cohabitatorem Daemonem Apostatam : If any man calle lawful Copulation , and Begeattinge of Children , Ignatius ad Philadelphien . Corruption , and Filthinesse , he hath the Diuel that felle from God dwellinge within him .

In like manner saie the Learned godly Bishoppes in the Councel of Gangra : Si quis discernit Presbyterum Coniugatum , Concil Gangren . Cap. 4. tanquam occasione nuptiarum , quòd offerre non debeat , & ab eius Oblatione abstinet , Anathema sit : If any man make difference of a Married Prieste , as if he maie not Minister the Oblation , ( or Holy Communion ) bicause of his Marriage , and absteineth from his Oblation , accursed be he .

Likewise it is written in the Councel of Constantinople : Dist. 31. Quoniam . Si quis praesumpserit contra Apostolicos Canones aliquos Presbyterorum , & Diaconorum priuare à Contactu , & Communione legalis vxoris suae , Deponatur . Similiter & Presbyter , aut Diaconus , qui Religionis causa Vxorem suam expellit , excommunicetur : If any man , contrarie to the Apostles Canons , presume to remooue either Prieste , or Deacon from the vse , and Companie of his lawful wife , let him be depriued . And in like manner let the prieste , or Deacon be excommunicate , that putteth awaie his wife vnder the colour of Religion .

As touchinge the place of S. Paule , 1. Corin. 7. Defraude not your selues , One an Other , Onlesse it be of consente for a season , that ye maie attende vnto Fastinge , and Praier . He speaketh not this of that kinde of Praier , that is commonly , & daiely vsed of al the Faitheful , as wel Married , as Vnmarried , but onely of the General , & Solemne Praier of the whole Congregation , whiche then , as in time of Persecution , and feare of enimies , was keapte onely in the night : and al the whole multitude of the Faitheful was charged to be presente at the same . At whiche times it was necessarie , that bothe the man , and the wife should leaue the one the others companie , and resorte to Praier .

So it is written in the Prophete Ioel , Ioel. 2. Blowe vp the Trumpe in Sion : Proclaime a solemne Faste : Cal togeather a Congregation of the People . Let the Breedegroome leaue his bedde : Let the Spouse comme from her Chamber . Let the Priestes , the Ministers of God , weepe bitweene the Entire , and the Aultar : And let them saie , O Lorde spare thy people , and geue not ouer thine Enheritance vnto Confusion . Of the like kinde of General , and Solemne Praier : Tertullian . ad Vxorem . Lib. 2. Tertullian saithe thus , Quis Solennibus Paschae abnoctantem Vxorem securus sustinebit ? What man ( beinge an Heathen , ) can without mistruste suffer his Wife ( beinge a Christian Woman ) to be awaie from him at the Solemnitie of the Easter Praier ?

Of sutche Solemne , and Seldome méetinges S. Paule speaketh : and not of the Daiely , Vsual , and Common Praiers of al Christians .

Otherwise , Paphnutius . touchinge the Puritie , and Holinesse of Married people , S. Augustine saithe , Quòd Paulus ait , August . De Bono Coniugali . Li. 1. Cap. 11. Quae innupta est , cogitat ea , quae sunt Dni , vt sit sancta & Corpore , & Spiritu , non sic accipiendum est , vt putemus , non esse Sanctam Corpore Christianam Coniugem Castam . Omnibus quippe Fidelibus dictum est , Nescitis , quoniam Corpora vestra templum sunt Spiritus Sancti ? Sancta sunt etiam Corpora Coniugatorum , fidem sibi , & Domino seruantium : Whereas S. Paule saithe , Shee that is Vnmarried , thinketh of the thinges , that perteine vnto the Lorde , that shee maie be Holy bothe in Body , and in Sprite , it maie not so be taken , as though wee should thinke , a Christian wife liuinge Chastely with her Husbande , is not Holy in Body . For it is generally saide vnto al Faitheful , Knowe ye not , that your Bodies be the Temple of the Holy Ghoste ? Therefore if the Man , and Wife keepe their Faithe bothe bitweene them selues , and to the Lorde , their Bodies are Holy .

But , These Euangelical Vowbreakers , saithe M. Hardinge , pretende Paphnutius to be their Proctoure . Whether he be Our Proctoure , or no , it forceth not greately , Notwithstandinge it is plaine , He was then the Onely Proctoure for the Truthe , and that againste the General Consente of al the whole Councel bisides . And although he were but One man alone , yet the whole Councel gaue place vnto him . Sozomenus saithe , Sozomen . Lib. 1. Cap. 23. Synodus laudauit sententiam Paphnutij , & nihil ex hac parte sanciuit : Sed hoc in vniuscuiusque Voluntate , sine vlla Necessitate reliquit : The Councel commended Paphnutius iudgement , and , touchinge this mater of Marriage , made no Decree at al : but leafte it to eche mannes owne Wil , without any force of Necessitie .

Of Our side thus mutche Paphnutius saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Marriage is Honorable : And the Companie of Man , and Wife is ( not filthinesse , as these menne séeme to saie , but ) Cleanenesse and Chastitie .

But , M. Hardinge , if the same Holy Father Paphnutius weighe so mutche of your side , as you pretende , wherefore then dothe One of your Companions of Louaine so lightly , & so disdainefully controlle that whole Storie , with the vtter discredite , and condemnation of the Writers ? For thus hath he not doubted to publishe his iudgemente therein to al the worlde : Copus Dialog● 1. Pagi . 154. Mihi , nescio quomodo , in dubium venit fides huius Historiae de Paphnutio . Sunt enim , quae suspicionem important , eam esse Arianorum , aut Impudicorum hominum Commentum . Tota enim haec res à Socrate pendet , & Sozomeno : quorum alter Nouatianus fuit : alter Theodorum Mopsuestensem à quinta Synodo damnatum magnis laudibus extulit : I knowe not howe , this Storie of Paphnutius seemeth to mee to be of doubteful credite . For there be maters , that make mee to suspecte , that it is but a vaine forged tale , either of the Arian Heretiques , or of somme other filthy personnes . The whole mater hangeth of Socrates , and Sozomenus : Of whiche twoo , the one was a Nouatian Heretique : The other highly commendeth Theodorus of Mopsuesta , beinge condemned by the Fifthe Councel .

Thus your Felowes make this whole Storie to be but a vaine Fable : and the Authours , and Writers thereof , Socrates , and Sozomenus , to be Heretiques , Nouatians , Arians , Vnhoneste , and Shamelesse personnes . And therefore , I trowe , ye wil not saie , they are your Proctours .

Wereas S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. in Epist. ad Titum Homil. 2. Marriage is so reuerende a thinge , that a man maie therewith ascende into the Holy Throne , and be made a Bishop , notwithstandinge he haue a wife : and that S. Paule suffereth not them , that haue twise married , to atteine sutche a roume , By these woordes , saithe M. Hardinge , Chrysostome condemneth the impure Bigamie of Our Holy Gospellers . Againe he saithe , If this Defender presse vs with Chrysostome , wee answeare , that , although Chrysostome graunte , that a Married man maie ascende to the Holy seate , yet he saithe not , that a man maie descende from that Holy seate to the Bridebedde . For wee denie vtterly , that any man after that he hath receiued Holy Orders maie marrie . Neither can it be shewed , that the Marriage of sutche was euer accoumpted lawful in the Catholique Churche .

I doubte not , Husbande of One wife . good Reader , but it shal easily appeare , that M. Hardinge in either of these twoo partes was fowly deceiued . For firste Chrysostome , as it is plaine by his woordes , Timo 1 whiche M. Hardinge in his translation hath pourposely falsified , expoundeth these Woordes of S. Paule , The Husbande of One wife , not of a man , that neuer had but one wife in al his time , but of a man , that hath but one wife at one time . If M. Hardinge shal thinke , this Exposition to be strange , and vnlikely , let him remember , that Chrysostome him selfe thereof writeth thus : Chrysost. in Epist. 1. ad Timotheum Homil. 10. Vnius Vxoris virum . Non hoc veluti sanciens dicit , quasi non liceat absque Vxore Episcopum fieri , sed eius rei modum constituens . Iudaeis quippe licitum erat , etiam Secundo Matrimonio iungi , & Duas itidem Simul habere Vxores : The Husbande of One Wife : S. Paule writeth not this , as makinge a Lawe , as if it were not lawful for a man to be made a Bishop without a wife : but he appointeth an order in that behalfe . For it was lawful for the Jewes to be coupled in the Seconde Matrimonie , and to haue Twoo wiues at one time .

In like sorte saithe S. Hierome , Hieronym . in Epist. ad Titum . Cap. 1. Quidam de hoc loco ita sentiunt : Iudaicae , inquiunt , Consuetudinis fuit , vel binas vxores habere , vel plures . Et hoc nunc volunt esse Praeceptum , ne is , qui Episcopus eligendus est , vno tempore Duas Pariter Vxores habeat : Touchinge this place somme men thinke thus : By the Custome of the Jewes it was lawful for a man , to haue Two wiues , or moe at once . And this they take to be the Apostles Commaundement , that he , that is to be chosen a Bishop , haue not Twoo wiues , Hieronym . in Epist. 1. ad Timothe . Cap. 3. or moe togeather at one time . Againe he saithe , Diaconi sint Vnius vxoris viri : Non , vt si non habuerint , ducant : Sed ne Duas habeant : Let the Deacons be the Husbandes of One wife : not that they should needes marrie a wife , if they haue none : but that they shoulde not haue Twoo wiues togeather . Catharinus contra Errores Caietani , Errore 99. Likewise saithe Cardinal Caietane , Apostolus Episcopis permittit Vnam Vxorem , Coeteris plures : The Apostle suffreth a Bishop to haue One Wife : Others he suffreth to haue Moe .

And to this pourpose Isidorus séemeth to saie , Castimoniam non Violati Corporis perpetuò obseruare studeant : Dist. 23. His igitur . aut certè Vnius Matrimonij vinculo foederentur : Let them studie to keepe and continewe the Chastitie of their Body vndefiled : or els , let them be coupled with the bande of One Marriage .

Of sutche a one , Pope Leo wrote sometime vnto the Bishops of Mauritania , Leo ad Episcopos Mauritaniae . Sicut ad nos relatum est , Duarum simul est Maritus Vxorum : As wee are enfourmed , he is at one time the Husbande of Twoo wiues . And therefore he addeth his iudgemente of him : Priuandum honore decernimus : Wee thinke him meete to be depriued of his promotion .

Of this kinde of Seconde Marriage Chrysostome speaketh , I meane of hauinge two Wiues aliue togeather : And not of marrieinge the Seconde wife after the death of the Former . 31. Quae. 1. Hac ratione . And therefore he saithe , Secundam quidem accipere , secundum Praeceptum Apostoli licitum est : Secundum autem Veritatis rationem Verè Fornicatio est . Sed cùm ▪ permittente Deo , Publicè , & licenter permittitur , fit Honesta Fornicatio : To take the Seconde wife ( while the firste is aliue ) accordinge to the Apostles commaundemente , it is lawful : But by the Judgemente of the Truthe in deede it is Fornication . But while as by Goddes permission it is openly , and lawfully suffered , the Fornication is made Honeste . This laste Clause the Glose there expoundeth thus : Fornicatio cum ea , quam permisit Moses post repudiatam assumi : Fornication , I meane , with her , whome Moses suffered to be taken to wife after the Diuorce of the Firste .

Thus therefore S. Chrysostome saithe , that sutche a man , as had Twoo wiues togeather at one time , or was Diuorced from One wife , and had married an other , might not be chosen to be a Bishop . Tertullian . De Monogamia . For otherwise , Tertullian saithe vnto the Bishoppes of the Catholique Churche : Apud vos Episcopi sunt Digami : There be Bishoppes emonge you ( he meaneth emonge the Catholiques ) that haue married twoo wiues , the one after the deathe of the other .

If al this wil not suffise , Marriage in Holy Orders . I referre mee selfe to Chrysostomes owne omes Woordes . Thus he writeth : S. Paule restreineth Vnchaste personnes , not permitting them , that haue married twoo wiues , to be Chosen to the gouernmente of the Churche . His reasons be these , Chrysos . in Epist. ad Tit. Homil. 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Nam qui vxori , quae decessit ( à se ) beneuolentiam nullam seruasse deprehenditur , quo pacto potest ille esse bonus Praeceptor Ecclesiae ? Imò quibus criminibus non subijcitur in dies ? Nostis enim , quòd , etsi per Leges Secundae nuptiae permittuntur , tamen ea res accusationibus multis patet : For he that is founde , to haue borne no good wil vnto his wife , ( not that is deade , but ) that is gonne from him , howe can he be a meete Maister for the Churche of God ? Nai rather to what quarrelles , and accusations ( by meane of these twoo Wiues ) shal he not be subiect euery daie ? For you know , although by the Lawe the Marriage of the Seconde Wife ( after the Diuorce of the firste ) be suffered , yet the mater lieth open to many offences .

It appeareth , saithe Chrysostome , that he bare no good wil towardes his Former Wife , not , that nowe is deade , but that is diuorced , and so departed from him . And therefore oftentimes growe many accusations , and griefes , bitwéene the Wiues , the Children , the Frendes , and others : for partinge of goodes : for restoaringe of dowers , and other like quarrelles . For to haue spoken of good wil , or affection towardes the Former Wife , being deade , it had benne impertinent , and to no pourpose .

Thus mutche , toouchinge Chrysostomes iudgement vpon these Woordes of S. Paule , The Husband of One Wife . Notwithstandinge I denie not , but certaine other Auncient , and Learned Fathers haue taken it otherwise .

Laste of al M. Hardinge vnwares falleth into the same Negatiue Diuinitie , that he so often , and so mutche abhorreth . For thus he saithe , Wee denie vtterly , that any man , after that he hath receiued Holy Orders , maye Marrie . Neither can it be shewed , that the Marriage of sutche was euer accoumpted lawful in the Catholique Churche . It this tale be true . then be al the Greeke Priestes Votaries , as wel , as the Latines . But it is noted vpon the Decrées , Dist. 31. quoniam . In Margine . Graeci continentiam non promittunt , vel Tacitè , vel Expressè : The Greekes make no Promisse of continente , or Single Life , neither Secretely , nor Expressely . And in the Councel holden at Ancyra it is concluded thus , Diaconi , Conci . Ancyran . Can. 9. quicunque ordinantur , si in ipsa Ordinatione protestati sunt , & dixerunt , velle se Coniugio Copulari , quia sic manere non possunt , Hi si postmodum Vxores duxerint , in Ministerio maneant : Proptereà quòd Episcopus illis licentiam dederit : Deacons as many , as be ordred , if at the time of receiuinge Orders , they made Protestation , and saide , that they woulde Marrie , for that they finde not them selues hable so to continewe without Marriage , if they afterwarde Marrie , let them continewe in the Ministerie : for as mutche as the Bishop hath geuen them licence . M. Hardinge , I trowe , wil not denie , but Deaconship is one of the Holy Orders . Yet Deacons at the time of theire Consecration makinge Protestation solemnely before the Bishop , were licenced by this Councel to Marrie at any time afterward : and the same Marriage , contrarie to M. Hardinges position , was euermore in the Catholique Churche accoumpted lawful .

So saithe Pope Steuin , Dist. 31. Aliter . Graecorum Sacerdotes , Diaconi aut Subdiaconi Matrimonio Copulantur : The Greeke Priestes , Deacons , or Subdeacons are coupled in Matrimonie . Gloss . Dist. 31. Aliter . Vpon whiche woordes the Glose noteth thus , Multi ex hac litera dixerunt , quòd Orientales possunt contrahere in Sacris Ordinibus : Many haue saide vpon occasion of this texte . that the Priestes of the Easte Churche ( contrarie to that M Hardinge so certainely here assureth vs ) maye Marrie , beinge within Holy Orders .

And of the Priestes of the Weaste Churche Cardinal Caietane saithe , Catharinus Contra Error . Caietani , Errore . 103. Papa potest dispensare cum Sacerdote Occidentalis Ecclesiae , vt Vxorem ducat , nulla existente causa Publicae Vtilitatis : The Pope maie dispense withe a Priste of the Weaste Churche , to Marrie a Wife , although there be no manner cause of Common Profite .

Athanasius saithe , Athanasius ad Dracontium . Multi quoque ex Episcopis Matrimonia non inierunt : Monachi contrà Parentes liberorum facti sunt : Many of the Bishoppes ( he saithe not al , but Many ) haue not Married . ( By whiche woordes he geueth vs to vnderstande , that Somme haue Married . ) Contrariewise , Monkes haue becomme Fathers of Children .

Cassiodorus writeth thus , Cassiodo . Lib. 6. Cap. 14. In illo tempore ferunt Martyrio Vitam finisse Eupsychium Caesariensem ( Episcopum ) ducta nuper Vxore : dum adhuc quasi Sponsus esse videretur : At that time they saie , Eupsychius the Bishop of Caesaria died in Martyrdome , hauing Married a Wife a litle before , beinge as yet in manner a newe married man .

Likewise M. Hardinge mighte haue founde it noted in his owne Glose , Dicunt , quòd olim Sacerdotes poterant contrahere , Dist. 84. Cum in Praeterito , in Gloss . ante Siricium : They saie , that in Olde times , before Pope Siricius ( whiche was about foure hundred yéeres after Christe ) it was lawful for Priestes to Marrie .

But wée shal haue occasion to speake hereof more hereafter . In the meane season , good Christian Reader , by these few , as by a taste , thou maiste easily iudge , howe true it is , that M. Hardinge telleth thée , that Marriage in them , that had receiued Holy Orders , was neuer thought lawful in the Catholique Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 2.

And , as Sozomenus saithe of Spiridion , and as Nazianzene saithe of his owne Father , wee saie , that a good and diligente Bishop dothe serue in the Ministerie neuer the woorse , for that he is Married , but rather the better , and with more hablenes to doo goode .

M. Hardinge .

Were it not , that the weight of these maters required an vpright , and plaine dealinge , for ciuilities sake , I could be contente sommetimes to spare you , and where ye make manifeste lyes , to vse a softer worde , and terme them fittens . But nowe if I tel you that you vse your accustomed Figure Pseudologia , whiche is Lyinge in plaine Englishe , I truste you wil beare with my plainenes : amend your owne faulte , and consider the Power of Truthe , that causeth me to be so bolde with you . This I * * M. Hardinge is assured , before he knowe . am suer of , that neither Sozomenus , nor Gregorie Nazienzene , nor Eusebius Li. 10. Cap. 5 as you haue caused your bookes , both Latine and Englishe , to be noted in the Margent , where ye mistake Eusebius for Rufinus : * * An vnaduised Vntruth . Reade the Answeare . Nor Nazianzene either in Monodia , as you note also in the Margent , Sozomenus , Gregorie Nazianzene , Eusebius , belied by the Authour of the Apologie . nor in the funeral Oration that he made of his Father , hath any sutche sayeinge , as ye reporte of them . For howe could thei say , that a Bishop serueth in his ministerie neuer the worse , but rather the better , and with more hablenesse to doo good , for that he is Maried , the Scripture beinge so plaine to the contrary ? What , were ye they were either so ignorante , or so forgetful , or so mutche inclined to promote your Carnal Doctrine of Priestes Mariages , as to say so , notwithstandinge that S. Paule writeth to the Corinthians ? Saithe he not of them that be Maried , S Paule writeth thus , not of Priestes , and Bishoppes , but of al other Christian menne . that sutche shal haue tribulation of the fleshe ? Sayeth he not , He that is without a Wife , careth for the thinges of our Lorde howe he may please God ? Of him that hath a Wife , saieth he not , that he careth forthe thinges that be the worldes , how he may please his wife , and is diuided ? Finally saieth he not , I tel you this thing for your profite , not to tangle you in a snare , but for that , whiche is honest , and comely vnto you , and that whiche maye geue you readines to praie to God without lette ? Wherefore recant for shame that fowle erroure , that a Bishop serueth the better in his ministerie , and is the more able to do good for that he is Maried .

Sutche men , M. Hardinges Modestie . sutche Doctrine : fleashly men , fleashly Doctrine .

Nowe therefore see you not , how great is your impudencie , in that you lye your selfe , and Father sutche a fowle lye vpon sozomenus , Li. 1. Ca. 11. and that light of the world in his time Gregorie Nazianzene ? The wordes of Sozomenus be these : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . that is to saie , Spiridion was a Husbandman , hauinge wife and Children , and yet for al that he was neuer the woorse about Goddes seruice . Of this place we graunt , Neuer the worse . ye maie saie with Sozomenus , that Spiridion serued God neuer the woorie , for that he was Maried . But howe , and whereof gather ye , that he serued God the better , and was more able to do good bicause of his Mariage ? Spiridion obteined that Priuiledge through * * Vntruthe . For Chrysostome maketh the case General . especial Grace by his excedinge vertue , whiche is graunted to fewe . And the Priuileges of a fewe make not a Law for al in general , ye knowe , as Nazianzene saieth .

Furthermore if the woordes of Sozomenus , The place of Sozomenus alleaged by the Defenders maket vtterly against them . Naziāzenes wordes retourned vpon the Defender . that ye builde your carnal Doctrine vpon , be wel examined , ye shal finde , that he maketh more against you , then with you . For signifieing that he had Wife and Children , he addeth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Yet for al that he was neuer the woorse about Goddes seruice . This reuocation or exception negatiué ( yet for al that &c. ) implieth a confession affirmatiue of the contrarie .

Neither maketh the place of Gregorie Nazianzene any whit for you more , then this of Sozomenus doth whose woordes be these after the translation of Raphael Volaterranus varyinge mutche from the Greeke : * * An erroure . M Hardinge taketh one place for an other . Hic Basilij Pater Basilius item appellatus , etsi matrimonio se vinxit , ita tamen in eo vixit , vt nihil propterea ad Perfectam Virtutem , ac Philosophiam consequendam impediretur . Basiles Father , who was named also Basile , although he put him selfe in bondes of Matrimonie , yet he liued so herein , as he was letted no whit from the atteininge of perfite Vertue and Holy knowledge . Were not Marriage a lette and hinderaunce to perfection requisite in a Bishop , Nothinge hi●●● dered . this Learned man coulde not rightly haue saide , Ita tamen in eo vixit , &c. Yet for al that he liued so , &c.

Right so it is easi to put him from the holde he taketh of Chrysostome , by Chrysostome him selfe . For least any man should thinke , Timoth. 1. Whereas S. Paule saieth , A Bishop oughte to be the Husbande of one Wife , that the same order contineweth stil in the Churche , thereto he saithe in his seconde Homilie De Patientia Iob : Reade the Answeare . Non ea ratione , quòd id nunc in Ecclesia obseruetur . Oportet enim omni prorsus castitate Sacerdotem ornatum esse . S. Paule ( saieth he ) required this , not in consideration , that the same be nowe obserued in the Churche . For it behooueth a Bishop to be garnished with al manner a Chastitie .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here commeth M. Hardinge in a lofte with , Io Triumphe , as hauinge beatten downe al the world vnder his féete : And , as beinge already in sure possession of the Victorie , he crieth out , Impudencies , Lewde Lies , fowle Faultes , and pretie Fittens : And ful terribly chargeth vs , like a Conqueroure , to render our selues , and to recante for shame . This newe courrage is suddainely blowen vpon him , for that he thinketh , wee haue intruded vpon his office , and , as he saithe , haue corrupted , and falsified and Holy Fathers . But it were a woorthy mater to knowe , wherein . Forsooth wée saie , by the reporte of Sozomenus , and Gregorius Nazianzenus , that Spiridion , and Gregorie Father vnto Nazianzene , beinge bothe Married Bishoppes , notwithstanding theire Marriage , Were neuer the woorse hable to doo theire Ecclesiastical offices , but rather the better .

Here M. Hardinge of him selfe , and fréely confesseth , these Holy Fathers were neuer the woorse hable to doo theire offices . For so mutche the woordes of Sozomenus importe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . But that they were the better hable to doo theire offices , bicause of theire Wiues , that he denieth vtterly : and herein , he saithe , wée are corrupters , and Falsifiers of the Fathers . And thus the whole difference , that is bitwéene M. Hardinge , and vs , touchinge this mater , standeth onely in these twoo poore woordes , Rather the better , and , Neuer the woorse . Nowe , Marriage Healpeth . gentle Reader , that thou maiste be the better hable to iudge bitwéene vs , I beséeche thee indifferently to weigh these woordes .

Gregorie Nazianzene hereof , Nazianzen in ●pitaphto Patris . that is , of the helpe , that his Father , beinge the Bishop of Nazianzum had by his Wife , writeth thus : Illa , quae dara est Adamo , &c. Eua , that was geuen to Adam for a Helper , for as mutche , as it was not good for Man to be alone , in steede of a Helper became his Enimie . It foloweth , Meo autem Patri Mater mea data illi à Deo , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . non tantùmm Adiutrix facta est , id enim minùs esset mirum , sed etiam Dux , & Princeps , Verbo , Factoque inducens illum ad res optimas . Et alijs quidem in rebus quamuis optimum esset , subditam esse Viro , propter iura Coniugij , tamen in Pietate non verebatur , Seipsam illi Magistram exhibere : My Mother beinge geeuen to my Father of God , became not onely his Helper , for that had benne no great woonder , but also was his Leader , and Captaine , bothe by Woorde , and by deede traiinge him vnto the beste . And , albeit in other thinges it were beste for her to be subiecte vnto her husbande for the Right of Marriage , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . yet in Religion , and Godlinesse , shee doubted not to becomme his Maistresse .

These woordes , M. Hardinge , be plaine , and cleare , and without fitton . Gregarie Nazianzene saithe , that his owne Mother was vnto his Father the Bishop of Nazianzum , a a Helper , and a Directour , bothe by Woorde , and deede , to leade him to the beste : and that in al other thinges beinge his Inferiour , yet in Religion and Godlinesse shee was his Maistresse . And yet must al these woordes , so open , to plaine , so cleare , be drowned with your simple distinction , of Rather the better , and neuer the woorse ? Maie wee not now allow you with fauour , to take al these , that ye cal Fittons , Lies , Corruptions , and Falsifieinges , home againe vnto your selfe ?

If yowe neuer readde these thinges before , it is no greate marueile . Yowe muste remember , Al Trueth maie not be measured by your Readinge .

In déede , Marriage , as also al other like outwarde thinges , of it selfe is neither good , 1 Cor. 7. nor il : but as it is vsed . S. Paule saithe , If the Virgine marrie , shee finneth not . He that Marrieth out his Virgine , finneth not . Therefore Gregorie Nazianzene saith , Neutrum horum , Nazianzen . in Epitaphio Gorgoniae : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . nec Matrimonium , nec Coelebs vita , prorsus aut Deo nos Mundóue conciliat : aut à Deo , aut à Mundo alienat : vt alterum natura sua omninò fugiendum sit , alterum absolutè laudandum . Antmus est , qui & Virginitati , & Nuptijs rectè imperat : Neither of theise twoo , nor Matrimonie , nor Single life , doothe either ioine vs to God , or to the World : or withdrawe vs from God , or from the world : that the One ought to be refused , and the other absolutely , and of it selfe ought to be praised . It is the Minde , that ruleth boothe Marriage , and Virginitie .

I graunte , there be moe occasions of let , and hinderance in Matrimonie , then in Virginitie , & specially in times of Persecution . The natural affection of Wife , and Children often mollifieth , and melteth the harte , and causeth a man to looke backewarde . S. Ambrose saithe , Bona Vincula nuptiatum : Sed tamen Vincula . Etsi vincula , tamen Vincula Charitatis : Bonum Coniugium : Sed tamen à Iugo tractum . Good are the Bandes of Matrimonie : Yet are they Bandes . And although they be Bandes , yet are thei Bandes of Charitie . Coniugium ( Wedlocke ) is good , yet it taketh his name of the Yoke .

This is that tribulation of the Fleashe , Ambrosius , De Virgini . Lib. 3. that S. Paule speaketh of .

And , al be it these Cares withdrawe , and oppresse the Mynde , as I haue saide , and oftentimes be greate lettes to Godly pourposes : yet , as it wel appeareth by these examples of Gregorie Nazianzene , and Spiridion , in a Godly man they hinder nothinge . Neither was this any sutche Singulare Priuilege , as M. Hardinge imagineth , graunted onely to these two Bishoppes , Gregorie , and Spiri●ion , & to none other .

S. Chrysostome saithe generally of al menne , Quamuis Nuptiae plurimum difficultatis in se habeant , Chryso●tom in 1. Epist. ad Tim. Homil. 10. ita tamen assumi possunt , vt perfectiori Vitae impedimento non sint . Notwithstandinge Marriage haue mutche trouble in it selfe , yet maie it so be taken ( and vsed , ) that it shal be no hinderance to perfite life . Againe he saithe , Ne excuses te propter Nuptias Dominus tuus Nuptijs interfuit , & Nuptias cohonestauit . Chrysost Contra Iudaeos & Gentales , & Haereticos : To. 3. Pag. 363. Et tu Nuptias arguis ? Et dicis Nuptias esse impedimentum ad Pietatem ? Nullum enim ad Pietatem est obstaculum . Vis cognoscere , quòd nihil obsit , habere Vxorem , & Liberos ? Moses nónne Vxorem habuit , & Liberos ? Vide & Petrum Columnam Ecclesiae , quòd & ipse Vxorem habuit . Ne accuses Nuptias : Excuse not thee selfe by thy Marriage . Thy Lorde was at the Marriage Feaste , and honoured Marriage with his Presence . And yet doost thou blame Marriage ? And saiste thou , that Marriage is an hinderance vnto Godlinesse ? I telle thee , Marriage is no manner hinderance vnto Godlinesse ? Wilt thou know , that it hindreth not to haue Wife , and Children ? Had not Moses Wife , and Children ? Beholde Peter , a Piller of the Churche : He had a Wife . Therefore finde no faulte with Marriage .

Againe , Chryso . in Esaiam , In illa Verba , Vidi Dominum . Tom. 1. Homil. 4. writinge vpon these Wordes of the Prophete Esai , Vidi Dominum , &c. He saithe thus , Quis ista lo●uitur ? Esaias ille spectator Coelestium Seraphim , qui cum Coniugio commercium habuit : nec tamen extinxit Gratiam : Who speaketh these Woordes ? Esaias the Beholder of the Coelestial Seraphims : who notwithstandinge he had companie with his Wife , yet he quenched not the Grace of God .

Againe , Filium habebat , & Vxorem : vt intelligas , non esse malas Nuptias : sed malam esse Scortationem : Esai had a Sonne , and a Wife : that thou maiste vnderstande , that Marriage is not il , but that Pornication is il . And againe , Num obsiabat Matrimonium ? Adiutrix tibi data est Vxor , non Insidiatrix : What ? Did Marriage hinder thee ? No. Thy Wife is geeuen thee to be thy healper , and not to deceiue thee .

Likewise saithe S. Augustine , August . in quaestionibus Noui , & Veter . Testamen . Quae. 127. Sanctissimus Samuel filios genuìt : non tamen ●ustitiae suae merita minuit . Zacharias Sacerdos Vir lustus in senectute sua genuit filium . Qua ergo ratione accusatur , quod minimè obesse probatur ? Moste Holy Samuel begate Children : and yet nothinge abated the Merites of his righteousnesse . Zacharios the Prieste in his Olde age begate a Childe . Wherefore then is that thinge accused , that is proued to doo no manner hurte ?

Nicephorus writinge of Gregorie S. Basiles Brother , Nicephor . Li. 11. Cap. 19. the Bishop of Nyssa , saithe thus , Quamuis haberet Coniugem , alijs tamen in rebus non cessit Fratri : Although he had a Wife , yet in other thinges he was Nothinge Inferiour ( to S. Basile ) his Brother .

S. Augustine saithe , August . De Bono Coniugali . ca. 11 as he is alleged before , Sancta sunt etiam Corpora Coniugatorum . Fidem sibi & Domino seruantium : Where as Married people keepe theire Faithe bothe to them selues , and to God , theire Bodies be Holy .

Likewise Nazianzene , Nazianzen . in 〈◊〉 Gorgoniae . Etiam illa , quae nupsit , & de ijs , quae sunt Mariti , & de ijs , quae sunt Domini , Solicita est : vt sit Sancta , & Corpore , & Spiritu : Eu●n shee , that is Married , is careful bothe for the thinges , that perteine to her Husbande , and also for the thinges , that perteine to God , that shee maie be Holy bothe in Body , and Sprite . Ambros in . 1. Cor. 7. Likewise S. Ambrose , Videmus Virgines de Saeculo cogitare : & Matrimonio iunctos Dominicis studere operibus : Wee see bothe Virgins careful for the world : and Married menne Careful for the woorkes of the Lord .

There be troubles in Marriage : It cannot be denied . But so be there also troubles in Single Life : Specially to them , that feare the Iudgementes of God , and haue not the gifte of Chastitie . Chrysost in Genes Homil. 21. But Chrysostome saith , Matrimonium non solùm nihil nobis obstat ad Philosophandum Deo , si voluerimus esse sobrij , sed & magnam adfert Consolationem : Comprimit enim insanum Naturae impetum : nec turbari sint , quasi mare : Sed efficit vt seapha foeliciter in portum appellat . Et ideo Deus Consolationem hanc tribuit humano generi : Marriage not onely hindreth nothing towardes the knowledge and Seruice of God , If wee : wil be sober , but also bringeth vs greate Comforte . For it oppresseth the raginge furie of Nature , and suffreth vs not to be dashte , and toste , as the waues of the Sea : but causeth that our shippe maie luckily arriue into the hauen . And for that cause hath God geuen this Comforte vnto mankind . Therefore Gregorie Nazianzene saith , Nazianzen in Funere Gorgoniae . Nuptiae sunt laudabiles propter eam , quae in Nuptijs est , animi tranquillitatem : Marriage is woorthy of Praise , for the quietnesse , and contentation of minde , that is in Marriage .

To be shorte , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Clemens Alexandrinus saith , Habet , vt Castitas , ita etiam Matrimonium , propria munera , & Ministeria , quae ad Dominum pertinent : As wel Matrimonie , as Chastitie , hath either of them theire peculiare offices perteinge vnto God .

And Chrysostome saithe , Ne quis praetexat Vxorem , vel Liberos , &c. Haec excusatio , hic praetextus , Diaboli sunt insidiae : Let noman make his excuse by his Wife , or Children , &c. This Excuse , and this pretence is the crafte , and deceitefulnesse of the Diuel . Thus , M. Hardinge , to conclude with Chrysostomes woordes , the Grounde , and Fundation of your Doctrine in this behalfe , is the crafte , and deceitefulnesse of the Diuel .

These thinges considered , I doubte not , but of your courtesie , ye wil take backe your Fittons vnto your selfe . The Conclusion and summe of your whole talke is this : Spiridion serued God neuer the woorse , not withstandinge he had a Wife : And Marriage is no let , or hinderance to perfite Godlinesse .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 3.

Further wee saie , that the same Lawe , whiche by constraint taketh awaye this libertie from menne , and compelleth them againste there willes , to liue single , is the Doctrine of Diuelles , as Paule saith : and , that euer sithence the time of this Lawe , a woonderful vncleanesse of life , and manners in Goddes Ministers , and sundrie horrible enormities haue folowed , as the Bishop of Augusta , as Faber , as Abbas Panormitanus , as Latomus , as the Tripartite Woorke , whiche is annexed to the Second Tome of the Councelles , and other champions of the Popes bande , yea and as the matter it selfe , and al Histories doo confesse .

For it was rightly saide by Pius the Seconde , Bishop of Rome , that he sawe many causes , why Wiues shoulde be taken awaie from Priestes : but that he sawe many moe , and more weightie causes , why they ought to be restoared to them againe .

M. Hardinge .

There is * * Manifeste Vntruthe . For al Priestes are restreined from Marriage : And Priestes be menne . no Lawe in the Churche , that by constrainte taketh awaye from men libertie to Marie . For S. Paules woordes be plaine , 1. Cor. 7. Voluntarie Vowe imbarreth libertie of the contrary . If thou take a wife , thou sinnest not . And likewise , If a Virgine marie , shee sinneth not . But if any Persons haue of theire owne wil , and deuotion Vowed to God chastitie , the same haue imbarred them selues of this general libertie , and by theire Voluntarie Promise , haue bounde themselues neuer to Marie . And in sutche , not onely Marriage it selfe , but also a wil to Marie is damnable , as S. Paule saithe of Widowes , whiche haue Vowed to liue chaste , that they haue theire damnation ( not for that they Marie , but ) for that they wil marie . If the Gospellers alleage against this Doctrine the woordes of S. Paule , If a Virgine marie , shee sinneth not : Wee answeare with Chrysostome , and other Fathers , that a Virgine by a Vowe of Chastitie dedicated to God , if she marrie , 1. Cor. 7. Ad Virginem Lapsam ca. 5. doubtlesse she sinneth mutche , for that beside Christe shee hathe surmaried an aduouterer . If they obiecte . It is better to Marrie then to Burne : Let S. Ambrose answeare : Who saith , that this saieinge perteineth to her , that hath not promised , to her that is not yet vailed . And by restraininge them from Marriage , The Doctrine of Deuils . the Churche vseth no tyrannic : nor if it teache , that sutche ought to forebeare Marriage , is that to be accoumpted the Doctrine of Diuels , but of the Holy Ghoste , whereby men are kepte from wilful dammation . To forebidde Marriage wholy , Vniuersally , and altogeather , that is the Doctrine of Deuils . But to iudge Marriage for somme state , and Order , of lesse conuenience , then the Single Life , or after Vowe of chastitie made , to require perpetual continencie , this is not the Doctrine of Diuels . For S. Paule him selfe did bothe . If these Defenders wil not admitte this answere , and beinge lothe to forsake theire fleashly pleasure , pretende to be moued with the Auctoritie of S. Paule , who calleth the forebiddinge of Marriage the Doctrine of Diuels : I sende them to S. Augustine for an answere in his thirteenthe Booke , and Six the Chapter againste Faustus the Maniche . Where for a sufficient solutton of theire obiection , they shal finde these plaine woordes : Ille prohibet , qui hoc malum esse dicit : non qui huic bono aliud melius anteponit . That is to sate , He forebiddethe ( Marriage ) whiche saithe it is euil : not he , whiche preferreth an other better thinge before this good thinge .

Nowe , that I may shewe in what time , and by what persons this Lawe of Single Life was ordeined , for breuities sake I wil content my selfe with witnes of One onely Councel . Whiche is the Seconde Councel of Carthage , holden in the time of Valentinian and Theodosius the Emperours . Where we finde , that this order was taken * * Vntruthe . For these be the woordes of the Apostles Canons : Episcopus , aut Presbyter , aut Diaconus , Vxorem suam praetextu Religionis ne abijciat . Aut si abiecerit , à Communione segregetur . Canone . 5. by the Apostles them selues , and that the Antiquitie obserued , and kepte the same . The woordes of the councel be these , Canone . 2.

Aurelius Episcopus dixit , &c. Aurelius the Bishop saide : Whereas in the Councel before this , it was treated of the rule of continencie and chastitiè , these three Degrees through their Consecrations be annexed to chastitte by a certaine decree written , to witte , Bishoppes , Priestes , and Deacons . Whom it is thought good , as it becometh the Holy Prelates , and Priestes of God , and likewise Leuites , or suche as attende vpon Holy Sacramentes , to be continent and chaste in euery condition to th intente thei may simply obteine , that they pray to God for , that we keepe and obserue that , whiche * * Vntruthe . Reade the Answeare . M. Hardinge fouly mistaketh the Councel . the Apos●les haue taught , and the antiquitie hath kepte . Lo Sir Defender .

What if the Bishop of Augusta finde faulte with Priestes liues ? ( Whiche Augusta and whiche Bishop there ye meane , I knowe not , neither wel can I knowe , excepte I sawe your notebooke ) what if the Abbot Panormitane , what if one Faber , and one Latomus , men of our time ( I trow ) and that zelous man whiche wrote the litle tripartite treatise annexed to the Laterane Councel . What so euer he was : what if al these ( I saie ) moued with a zeale , and beinge desirous of the Clergies Reformation , lamentably complaine of theire loose life ? what then ?

Gette you fairer painted , and better filled boxes , then these be , or els shal ye al be taken for poore Potticartes .

Touchinge Pius , In Platina ye shal finde these wordes , for one of that Popes saieinges , Sacerdo●ibus magna ratione sublatas nuptias , maiori restituendas videri . As mutche to saie in English : that Marriage was taken from Priestes with greate reason , and that it semed it were to be restoared againe with greater . This saieinge reporteth not , that Wiues were : taken a waie from Priestes , as you reporte , neither that Wiues ought to be restored to Priestes againe . * * A sage exposition . What had this benne to Pius meaninge ? It speaketh onely of Marriage , whiche as , before a man enter into Holy Orders , no Vowe beinge made , is lawful : so by orders taken a Vowe of chast●tie beinge solemly made , is vtterly vnlawful . If this saieinge had made so mutche for your pretensed Marriage , as ye would men to beleue , * * Vntruthe . For if wee had falsified the wordes , yee would not so simply haue touched it . ye would neuer haue falsified it by sutch chaunge of woordes . Whether is be more expedient , sutche as come to the clergy , to be required to leade the Single life , and to bind themselues thereto by Vowes , or to enioie the common libertie of Mariage , * * Nowe at laste , the Doctour● stand i● doubte . ● Mira verò Mili ti quae placeant . that we leaue to the Churche to discusse and order .

If Pius sawe many weightier causes , for Priestes to haue Wiues , then for theire Single Life , as ye pretende he did : why did not he , or you in his steede shewe vs , what and how substantial they be ? If they be no better , then you and your felowes haue vttered in your Sermons , and w●t●inges hitherto , they are not worthe●a Pipt nootte . This saieing of Pius is wel to be weighed and scanned .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Who so euer shal wel consider the Fruites that haue growen of this trée , Doctrine of Diuels . maie easily iudge , by whom it was planted . Certainely S. Paule , when he had géeuen rules , touching the Cleregie , that Bishoppes , & Deacons should be the Husbandes of One Wife , immediately afterwarde , in the same tenoure , & course of Speache , saith thus : 1. Tim. 4. The Sprite saithe plainely , that in later times , somme shal departe from the 〈◊〉 , geeuinge eare vnto lieinge Sprites , and to the Doctrine of Diuels , vttering lies vnder Hypocrisie , hauing theire Conscience burnte with a hote yron ( and therby made vnsensible ) Forebiddinge Marriage , &c.

But M. Hardinge saithe , there is no Lawe in the Churche , to restraine Marriage : and that Marriage is not nowe condemned by him , and other of that side , & thought vnlawful Vniuersally in al menne , ( for that , he saithe , was the Heresie of Valentinus , Marcion , Montanus , and others ) but onely forebidden , and thought vnlawful in a fewe . By this answeare , M. Harding maie séeme to make him selfe sommewhat better , then was Valentinus , and Marcion , and other Olde Heretiques . But further to healpe him , and thorowly to cleare his Doctrine , it wil not serue . It is a Common knowen rule in the Scholes , Magis , & Minùs non mutant Speciem . Verily , as he that killeth but a fewe , menne , is called a Mankiller : Euen so he , that Condemneth Marriage in a fewe , muste likewise be called a Condemner of Marriage . Neither dooth S. Paule , when he prophesieth hereof , say , that somme should Condemne al kinde of Marriage Vniuersally , in al manner of Menne : but onely he saithe , There shal be somme , that shal forebidde Marriage .

Neither did al Heretiques Condemne Marriage in one sorte . For somme of them condemned it Generally , and thorowly , and altogeather : Somme others of them Condemned it onely in a fewe , euen as M. Hardinge , and his Felowes doo . For thus S. Augustine writeth of the Heretiques named the Manichées , Auditores qui appellantur apud eos , August . Epist. 74. & Carnibus vescuntur , & agros colunt , & , si voluerint , Vxores habent : Quorum nihil faciunt illi , qui vocantur Electi : Thei , that emonge them be called , Hearers , doo bothe eate Pleashe , and tille the grownde , and Marrie Wiues too , if they liste . But no sutche thing maie they doo , that be called Electi . The Auditores , or Hearers emonge the Manichées were as the laie people : The Electi , or Chosen , were as the Cleregie . These Heretiques the Manichées Condemned Marriage , not generally in al sortes , and degrées of menne : but onely , as M. Hardinge doothe , in a fewe . Yet were they Heretiques notwithstandinge , and theire Doctrine was the Doctrine of Diuels .

S. Augustine saithe vnto them , August . De Moribus Mantchae . Lib. 2. Cap. 13. as he woulde also saie vnto M. Hardinge : Non Concubitum , sed vt longè antè ab Apostolo dictum est , Verè Nuptias prohibetis : Ye forebidde , not Copulation , ( or Cocubines ) But , euen as the Apostle Prophesied long before , Verily , and in deede ye forebidde Marriage : ( Albeit it were but in a few ) .

All this , M. Hardinge , notwithstanding , that it maie plainely appeare , whoes Doctrine ye teache , Chrysost. in Opere Imperfecto , Hom●l . 1. it shal be good , and not form the pourpose , briefely to disclose somme parte of it . And here , to passe ouer these woordes of Chrysostome , Haec ipsa Coniunctio Maritalis malum est ante Deum : Hierony . Aduersus Iouintan . Lib. 1. This very Copulation of Man and Wife is euil before God : And these of S. Hierome , Quàm diu impleo Mariti officium , non impleo officium Christiani : As longe as I doo the de wtie of a Husband , I doo not the dewtie of a Christian : and other like Saieinges , and Authorities before alleged , Pope Innocentius in the Condemnation of Marriage saithe thus : Dist 82. Proposuisti . Rom. 8. Tit. 1. Qui in Carne sunt , Deo placere non possunt : They that be in the Fleashe ( that is to saie , in Marriage ) cannot please God And to this pourpose he allegeth these woordes of S. Paule , To that Cleane al thinges are Cleane : But to the filthy , and Infidelles ( wherby the same Innocentius vnderstandeth Married people ) nothinge is Cleane , Dist 82. Pluri●●s . But boothe theire minde , and theire Conscience is defiled . Copus Dialog. 1. Pag. 159. Graecos Solos in hac impudicit lae Scholà Magistros sequuntur . Pope Siricius calleth Marriage , Virium , Luxuriam , Foedas Cupiditates : Vice , Lecherie , end Filthy Lustes . One of your late Englishe Doctours of Louaine saith , that the whole Easte Churche , mainteining the lawful Marriage of Priestes , euermore continewed there from the Apostles time vntil this daye , mainteineth , and contineweth a Schole of Filthinesse .

Further you maie remember , that this rule is written in a Booke of your owne Doctrine , Con●●t . Othonis . Licet ad profuga●●m . In Gloss . and is geuen in Secrete , as a Special Lesson vnto your Cleregie , Si non Castè , tamen cautè : If thou deale not Chastely , yet deale not Charily .

From whence had you this Doctrine , M. Hardinge ? who set it firste abroche ? who taught it ? who confirmed it ? who allowed it ? If ye can say , it is not the Doctrine of the Diuel : Yet verily , I beléeue , ye cannot saie , it is in any pointe like the Doctrine of God . Hierony . in Danielem . Cap. 11. 2. Tim. 3. S. Hierome hauinge occasion to speake of Antichriste , saith thus : Simulabit Castiratem , vt plurimos decipiat : He shal make a countrefeite shewe of Chastitie , that he maie deceiue many . Euen so S. Paule saith , Habentes Speciem Pietatis : Virtutem autem eius abnegantes : Hauinge a colour of Godlinesse : but the Power therof denieing vtterly .

But , sommewhat to reliue your selfe , ye allege these woordes of S. Augustine : Ille prohibet Matrimonium , August . Contra Eaust . li. 30. ca. 〈◊〉 . Matrimonium , qui illud Malum esse dicit : non qui huic Bono aliud melius anteponit : He forebiddeth Marriage , that saithe Marriage is Euil : and not he , that before this thinge , beinge Good , setteth an other thinge , that is Better . Here , M. Hardinge , I beseeche you of your indifferente iudgement : He that vseth your woordes , and saithe , as you saie , They that liue in Matrimonie , cannot please God : Thei be Filthy : Thei be Infidelles : Vnto them nothing is cleane : Theire whole Minde , and Conscience is defiled : He that saith , Matrimonie is Vice , Lecherie , and Filthy Pleasure , Saith he not , Matrimonie is an euil thing ? Thus you say : Thus you write : These Woordes be apparente , and allowed in you Bookes : euen in those Bookes , whereby ye woulde haue vs to Order , and to directe our Liues , & Manners . Briefely this is the Very Substance of your Doctrine in this behalfe . Therefore euen by S. Augustines Iudgemente , Your Doctrine is the Doctrine of Diuels .

And , whereas ye would seeme , not vtterly to condemne the state of Matrimonie , but onely to sette Single Life before it , as a Better thinge before a Good : it maie please you to vnderstande , that , notwithstandinge a thinge in it selfe be Beste , yet is it not therefore Vniuersally Beste for euery Man . For , notwithstanding Scarlet be the fairest of al Coloures , and the Face the fairest parte of al the Body , yet , I recken , M. Hardinge , to make your selfe faire , ye woulde not haue your Face died in Scarlet .

Single Life for many causes is the Beste : I graunte . Yet is it not Beste for euery body : but onely for him , that hath the gifte of Chastitie , and can with quiet minde , & vpright Conscience liue Single . Otherwise Matrimonie is mutche better . And therefore God hath leafte vs indifferently frée to bothe : that , who so euer cannot vse the One , 1. Cor. 7. may chuse the other . S. Paule saith , Volo Omnes esse sicut meipsum : I woulde euery man woulde liue Single , as I doo . But he addeth withal a Special Prouiso : Vnusquisque Proprium donum habet à Deo : alius autem sic : Euery man hath his owne gifte of God : One this , an other that . And therefore he saith further . Although Single Life be the better state , Yet , who so euer is not continente , let him Marrie . Better it is to Marrie . then to Burne . Although otherwise he weigh Single Life before Marriage , yet in this case , he saith , it is better to Marrie , then to liue Single .

M. Hardinge hereto replieth : They , that haue Vowed , haue loste this libertie : and by S. Ambrose , and S. Augustines Iudgemente maye not Marrie . Hereof I haue partely spoken before : & partely shal haue occasion offered to saie more hereafter . In the meane season wée are taught here by M. Hardinge , to take S. Paules Woordes by the toppe , and to turne them quite backwardes : and thus to frame a Newe Rule of Life , The Apostles Doctrine . and to saie contrarie to S. Paule , Melius est Vri , quàm Nubere : It is better , to burne in Concupiscence , then to Marrie .

Yet S. Augustine saithe euen of them , that haue Vowed , as it is before alleged , Quae Nubere volunt , Augu. De Sancta Virginit . Ca. 34. & ideò non Nubunt , quia impunè non possant , Meliùs Nuberent . quàm vrerentur , id est , quàm occulta flamma Concupiscentiae in ipsa Conscientia vastarentur : They that haue a minde to Marrie , and yet Marrie not , bicause they cannot Marrie without reproche , Better were it for them to Marrie , then to Burne , that is to saye , then with the priuie flame of theire Coucupiscence to be wasted in theire Conscience .

Further M. Hardinge saithe , This Order of Single Life was taken by the Apostles them selues : And therefore , saithe he , it is not the Diuels , but the Apostles Doctrine . If this be true in déede , then is this mater thorowly concluded . But where was this Order taken by the Apostles ? By what Writinge , by what Recorde , by what Tradition maie it appeare ? Or how is it likely , that the Apostles , beinge Married Menne them selues , would force other menne to liue Single ?

I haue already shewed by Ignatius , Ambro. 2 Cor. 11. by Clemens , by Eusebius , and by S. Ambrose , that the Apostles , S. Iohn Onely excepted , were al Married . Clemens saith . that Peter saw his owne Wife carried by the Officers to suffer deathe for Christes sake : Euseb. Li. 3. Ca. 30 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ignatius ad Philadelphien . and cried vnto her comfortably by her Name , O Wooman , Remember the Lord . Ignatius S. Iohns Disciple saithè , Opto Deo dignus inueniri , sicut Petrus , & Paulus , & reliqui Apostoli , qui Nuptijs fuerunt sociati , qui non libidinis causa , sed posteritatis surrogandae gratia Coniuges habuerunt : I wishe to be founde meete for God , as was Peter , and Paule , and the other Apostles that were Married : and not for pleasure , but for Posterities sake had Wiues .

Chrysostome saithe , Chryso . In Priorem ad Timoth. Homil. 10. Cur non ait , Oportet Episcopum Angelum esse , nulli humanae perturbationi vitióue subiectum ? Ne Ecclesiae negotia fructusque perirent . Idcircò moderatam Virtutem proposuit : non supremam illam , atque Coelestem : Why saithe not S. Paule , A Bishop ought to be an Angel , subiecte neither to any worldly affection , nor to any Vice ? Leste the affaires , and fruites of the Churche should perishe , ( beinge without a Gouernoure ) . Therefore he required of Bishoppes a moderate , and a reasonable kinde of Vertue ( willinge them to be Husbandes of One Wife ) and not that other Vertue , so High , and so Heauenly : ( that is to saye , vtterly to liue vnmaried . ) Againe he saithe , Chrysost. in eadem Homil. Idcircò ait , Vnius Vxoris Virum : Ne nimis in angustum rem eam concluderet , si exactissimam Virtutem experisset : idcireò moderatiori admonitione maluit vti : ne ex desperatione perfectae illius inueniendae Virtutis , Ecclesiae sine Episcopis essent : Therefore S. Paule saith , Let a Bishop be the Husbande of One Wife : Leste he shoulde shut vp the mater into too greate a straite , if he had required that moste perfite puritie : therefore he woulde rather vse a reasonable moderation , or meane ( that a Bishop shoulde be the Husbande of One Wife ) : Leste of despaire of findinge that excellencie of Vertue ( to liue Vnmarried ) the Churches shoulde be leafte without Bishoppes .

S. Paule 1. Cor. 7. 1. Tim. 3. Tit. 1. Leo Epist. 87. saithe , Touchinge Virgins , I haue no commaundemente of the Lorde : Better it is to Marrie , then to burne : Let a Bishop be the Husbande of One Wife . Whiche laste woordes Pope Leo expoundeth thus : Is Episcopus ordinetur , quem Vnius Vxoris Virum fuisse , aut esse Constiterit : Let him be Consecrate a Bishop , of whom it may wel appeare , that either he is , or hath benne the Husbande of One Wife .

S. Ambrose expoundinge these woordes of S. Paule , Ambros . in 1. Cor. 7. Touchinge Virgins , I haue no commaundemente of the Lord , saith thus , Si Doctor Gentium non habuit , habere quis potuit ? If the Doctour of the Gentiles had no Commaundement of the Lorde , touching Virgins , what man els then coulde euer haue it ?

Emonge the Rules , whiche commonly are called the Apostles Canons , it is written thus : Episcopus , aut Presbyter , aut Diaconus Vxorem suam praetextu Religionis ne abijciat . Aut si abiecerit , à Communione segregetur : & , si perseueret , deponatur : Let not either Bishop , or Prieste , or Deacon put awaie his Wife vnder coloure of Religion . Or if he so doo , let him be put from the Communion ( of the Faithful ) : And. if he so continew , let him be vtterly deposed from his office .

S. Hierome expounding these Woordes of S. Paule , Let euery man remaine in the vocation , Hierony . Contra Iouinian . Lib. 1. wherein he was called , saithe thus , Ex hoc , habentibus Vxores ●ollit licentiam dimittendi eas : Hereby S. Paule forebiddeth Married menne to put awaye theire Wiues .

In the Sixth Councel holden at Constantinople it is written thus : Antiquum sequentes Canonem Apostolicae diligentiae , Dist. 31. Quoniam . & Constitutiones Sanctorum Virorum , Legales Nuptias Posthac valere volumus , nullo modo cum Vxoribus suis eorum connubia dissoluentes : Folowing the olde Order of the Apostles diligence , and the Constitutions , and Lawes of the Holy Fathers , frōhence foorth wee wil , that the lawful Marriage ( of Bishoppes , and Priestes ) shal stande in force , not in any wise dissoluinge the Wedlocke , that they haue with theire Wiues . And herein , they say , they folowe the Olde Canon , or Order of the Apostles .

Gratian saithe , 26. Quae. 2. Sor● . as he is before alleged , Copula Sacerdotalis , nec Legali , nec Euangelica , nec Apostolica Authoritate prohibetur : The Marriage of Priestes is not forebidden by any Authoritie , either of the Lawe , or of the Gospel , or of the Apostles .

Cardinal Caietane saith , Catharinus contra error . Caietani , Errore 112. Clemens stroma Lib. 3. Dominus Discipulis suis nullum indixit Votum : Our Lord appointed vnto his Disciples no manner of Vowe .

Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , as it is saide before , Epistolae Apostoli nusquam honestum , Moderatumque Matrimonium prohibuerunt : The Epistles of Paule the Apostle neuer forebade honeste , and sobre Marriage .

Al these thinges wel considered , I beseche thée , gentle Reader , indifferently to weigh M. Hardinges woordes : and to demaunde of him , with what countenance he coulde thus tel thee , that the Order of Single Life was taken by the Apostles them selues , and therefore muste be holden as the Apostles Doctrine .

If he happen to tel thée , it is so written in the Councel of Carthage , tel him againe , he is deceiued . I saie , tel him , that the Apostles of Christe neuer , neither made any Law , nor gaue any order for the Single Life of the Ministers . And therefore tel him hardly , he is deceiued . He wil say , The woordes of the Councel be plaine . Quod Apostoli docuerunt , Concil. Carthag. 2 Cap. 2. & ipsa seruauit Antiquitas : Whiche thinge the Apostles haue taught , and the Antiquitie it selfe hath obserued . These woordes be plaine in déede , if they were not peruersly glosed . Therfore tel him againe , he should better haue learned , bothe the manner of the Apostles teaching , & also the scope , and reache of this Antiquitie . Certainely thus mutche his owne Glose could haue told him : Apostoli nihil instituerunt , Dist. 84. Cùm in Praeterito , in Glossa . de non vtendo Matrimonio iam contracto : The Apostle tooke no order , touchinge the not vsinge of Matrimonie already contracted .

And whereas the Councel saithe , Apostoli docuerunt , The Apostles taught , The same Glose saithe , Apostoli docuerunt exemplo : non Institutione , vel Constitutione : The Apostles taught it by theire Example : but not by appointemene , nor by commaundemente . Perhaps M. Hardinge wil saie , The Apostles Example is sufficiente . Clemens stroma . Lib. 7. Thereto I wil answeare , as Clemens Alexandrinus sommetime answeared certaine of the Olde Heretiques in like case : Dicunt gloriosi isti iactactores , se imitari Dominum , qui Vxorem non duxit . Illis dicit Scriptura , Deus Superbis resistit : Humilibus autem dat Gratiam : These glorious Braggers saie , they wil folow the Example of our Lord , that Married no Wife . Vnto them the Scripture saith , God withstandeth the Prowd : and geueth Grace vnto the humble . And to like pourpose S. Ambrose saith , Praeceptum quidem Apostolus non habuit : at habuit Exemplum . In deede the Apostle S. Paule had no Commaundemente to geeue of Virginitie : but Example he had .

Againe whereas the Councel allegeth Antiquitie , Quod ipsa Seruault Antiquitas , the same Glose expoundeth it thus : A tempore Siricij Papae hic vocat Antiquitatem : By this woorde , Antiquitie , the Councel meaneth the time after Pope Siricius ( Whiche was foure hundred yeeres after Christe ) . And againe , as it is alleged before , Ante tempora Siricij Papae Sacerdotes poterant contrahere Matrimonium : Before the time of Pope siricius it was lawful for Priestes to contracte Matrimonie .

Sutche good lucke M. Hardinge hath to his Doctours , and Councelles . By his owne Glose he hath loste foure hundred yéeeres of his Antiquitie .

Panormitane after he had saide , The Commaundemente of Single life is not of the Law of God , he added further , Extra , De Clericis Coniugatis . Cùm olim . Quia aliâs Graeci peccarent : Non enim excusaret eos Consuetudo . Quia illa non valet contra Legem Dei : Otherwise the Graecians were offenders . For no Custome coulde excuse them . For as mutche as Custome preuaileth not against the Lawe of God .

Now touchinge this Councel of Carthage , notwithstandinge it had benne truely Construed , yet the Authoritie therof muste néedes séeme so mutche the lesse , for that it decréeth of set pourpose quite contrarie to the Councel of Nice . For the Fathers in the Nicene Councel durste nor to remoue Priestes , and Sozomen . Lib. 1. Cap. 23. and Bishoppes from theire Wiues : for that it was written , Whom God hath ioinned , let noman sunder . But these other Fathers in the Councel of Carthage without any stickinge , or doubtinge at the mater , onely with one woorde , vtterly remoued them : and so by force , and violence , and contrarie to the Commaundemente of Christe , sundred , & diuided them , whom God had ioined . Whiche thing , Holy Paphnutius saith , was not Lawful for man to doo .

Touchinge Bishop Hulderichus , Panormitanus , La●omus , and Iacobus Faber , and sutche others , as haue spoken , or written in the behalfe of Priestes Marriage , M. Hardinge thinketh it sufficiente for him to answeare , What if they complaine of the loose life of the Cleregie ? What then ? That is to saie , What if the Cleregie liue in professed shame , and open filthinesse ? What then ? As if sutche Simple Authorities were woorthy of none other answeare .

Yet was Hulderichus sommetime Bishop of Augusta in Germanie , welneare sixe hundred yeeres agoe , & for his vertue , and Holinesse was coumpted a Saincte . Abbas Vrspergensis in his storie writeth of him in this sorte : Abbas Vrsperg . Anno 925. Pagina 214. Hiltinus Augustanus Episcopus obijt : Cui Sanctus Vdalrichus ( qui idem est Hulderichus ) successit : Histine the Bishop of Augusta died : To whom succeded Saincte Hulderichus . Abbas Panormitanus was a famouse Canoniste , in Iudgement Equal with any other .

Faber , and Latomus bothe in our time were accoumpted Learned : and either of them a Special Champion of M. Hardinges side . Verily the woorste , and vileste of al these is a greate deale bothe sounder in Iudgement , and déeper in Learning , then either Amphilochius , whom M. Hardinge so highly estéemeth : or Abdias , or Hippolytus , or Leontius : whom they haue lately rakte out of the duste : Or Clement of Rome , whom he so often calleth the Apostles Felowe .

Neither did these writers onely complaine of the loosenesse of Priestes liues , as M. Hardinge telleth vs : But also for remouinge of Publique shame , and sclaunder out of the Churche of God , wished , that the Libertie of Marriage might be restoared : whiche thinge M. Hardinge so closely dissembleth .

Touchinge that Pope Pius was commonly woonte to say , As Marriage was taken awaie from Priestes vpon greate Considerations , euen so nowe vpon other greater considerations it were to be restoared to them againe , M. Hardinge , after mutche other néedelesse talke , The fruites of Single Life . saithe thus : Why did not he , or you in his stéede shewe vs , what , and how Substantial considerations they be ?

Good Christian Reader , lothe I am to disclose , and publishe any thinge , that maie sounde to the shame of any one man : mutche lesse , to the open shame of so greate a number . But M. Hardinge ouer heauily presseth vs with his importunitie , and requireth vs vpon our credite to shewe these causes . Therefore if the reporte hereof shal séeme vnpleasant , the faulte is M. Hardinges : It is not mine . I wil onely shew foorthe simply , & truely , that I finde written in sundrie , bothe of the Ancient learned Fathers , and also in others of his owne side : Whiche neuerthelesse , had not M. Hardinge benne , mighte mutche better haue benne concealed .

Firste of al , the Ancient Father Origen for his time , whiche was welneare foureteene hundred yéeres agoe , hereof complaineth thus : Non solùm , quae docent , Origen . in Marthae . Tracta. 24. non faciunt , sed etiam crudeliter , & sine misericordia , non secundum aestimationem vitium vniuscuiusque , iniungunt : Vt , qui prohibent nubere , & ab eo , quod expedit , ad immoderatam munditiem compellunt . Alligant onera grauia , & faciunt homines cadere sub eis . Et frequenter videmus , eos qui talia docent , contraria facere sermonibus suis . Castitatem docent : & Castitatem non seruant : &c. Omnia faciunt propter personas hominum , & glorias vanas , vt videantur ab hominibus . Et plaerunque sunt tales , qui diligunt primos accubitus in conuiuijs , & salutationes in foro , & vocari ab hominibus Rabbi : Qui volunt vocari Episcopi , Presbyteri , Diaconi : Not onely they doo not , that they teache , but also cruelly , and without mercie they laie theire Iniunctions vpon others , not consideringe eche mannes habilitie . Sutche be they , that forbidde menne to marrie : and from that thinge , that is lawful to be donne , driue , and force menne to an vnreasonable Puritie . They binde , and laie on heauy burthens , and cause menne to fal vnder them . And oftentimes wee see them , that teache sutche thinges , to doo contrarie to theire owne saieinges . They teache Chastitie : and yet keepe not Chastitie : &c. They doo al thinges for the commendation of menne , and vaine glorie , that they maye be seene , and noted of the people . And commonly they be sutche , as loue the highest places at Feastes , and Banquettes , and to be Saluted , Euseb li. 4 ca. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and Honoured in the Market places , and of the people to be called Rabbi : That wil be called Bishoppes , Priestes , and Deacons .

At the verie firste attempte hereof , Dionysius the Bishop of Corinthe wrote thus vnto Pinytus the Bishop of Gnosus , Noli graue illud onus necessariae Castitatis imponere Fratribus : Laie not that heauy burthen of the necessitie of Chaste life vpon the Brethren .

Neither was it for nothinge , that S. Cyprian in his time wrote thus , Vt quid sibi adhibuit mulierem , Cypria . De Singularitate Clericorum . qui ducere contempsit Vxorem ? Peius est , quàm Moechari , continentiam ducere criminosam : Wherefore tooke he a woman vnto him , that disdeined to marrie a wife ? To liue a continente life with reproche , is woorse then Aduouterie .

It is not for nothinge , Epiphan. Contra Origenian . Haeresi . 42. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Chrysostom . to 5. Quòd Regulares Foeminae cum vi●is cohabitent . that Epiphanius writeth , Repudiant Nuptias : at non Libidinem . In honore enim est apud illos , non Castitas , sed Hypocrisis : quam tamen appellari volunt Castitie ? They refuse Marriage , but not luste , or pleasure . For they esteeme , not Chastitie , but Hypocri●ie : And yet the same Hypocrise they wil haue called Chastitie .

It is not for nothinge , that Chrysostome writeth of the Vowed , or Chaste wemen in his time : Nuptias magis dicere beatas licet , &c. Posthac melius esset , ne Virgines quidem esse , &c. Perseuerat adhuc nomen , & appellatio rei : at nego●ium totum in corpore sublatum est , &c. In delicijs magis viuunt , quàm mulieres in fornice , &c. Frequens , & quotidianus est concursus obstetricum ad Virginum domos : &c. Virginitas ista cum viris plùs ab omnibus arguitur , quàm stuprum ipsum : Wee maie saie , that Marriage is a greate deale better ( then sutche Virginitie ) . Herea●t●r it were better , there were no Virgins at al. The na●e ( of Virginitie ) continueth stil : But Virginitie it selfe in their body is quite gonne . They liue more in pleasure , then Harlottes in the Stewes . There is often , and daiely renninge of Midwiues to virgins houses . This manner of Virginitie of wemen emongest menne , is more reproued of al menne then Fornication it selfe .

It is not for nothinge , Sulpitius Seuerus Dialog. 3. that Sulpitius Seuerus saithe of S. Hierome , Hieronymus de familiaritatibus virginum , & Monachorum , & Clericorum , quàm vera , quàm fottia disputauit ? Vnde a quibusdam , quos nominare nolo , dicitur non amari : Howe truely , and how stoutely hath S. Hierome written of the Familiaritie , that these virgins haue with Monkes , and Priestes ? And therefore it is saide , that of somme menne , whome I wil not name , he is the lesse beloued .

Neither is it for nothinge , Saluianus De Prouidentia , Lib. 5. Ibidem . that Saluianus saithe of his time , which was aboute a thousande yéeres agoe , Sub specie Religionis vitijs Saecularibus mancipantur : Vnder the coloure of Religion , and Holinesse , they are made slones to worldly vices . And againe , Nouum prorsus Conuersionis genus : Licita non faciunt : Illicita committunt : A very strange kinde of Conuersion : That they maie doo , they doo not : And doo , that they maie not doo .

Al these , and other like thinges were written longe agoe , in the olde times , before the fruites of Single life were thorowly knowen .

But after that Pope Hildebrande by Crueltie , and Tyrannie had fully established the mater , and brought it to perfection , Auentinus saithe , Many godly learned menne vtterly foresooke the Ministerie , Auentinus in Hildebrando . Et Falsi Prophetae , Falsi Apostoli , Falsi Sacerdotes emerserunt , qui simulata Religione populum deceperunt . Maxima pars sub honesto nomine Castimoniae Stupra , Incestus , Adulteria , passim , & impunè committunt : False Prophetes , False Apostles , and False Priestes sprange vp : which vnder a countrefeite Religion deceiued the people . The moste parte of them , vnder the honeste name of Chastitie , commit whoredome , Aduouterie , Inceste , commonly , and without punishment .

S. Bernarde saithe , Bernardus in Concilio Remensi . Episcopi , & Sacerdotes huius temporis Castitatis Sanctimoniam , sine qua nemo videbit Deum , tam in Corde , quàm in Corpore , quomodo ' student obseruare ? Traditi in reprobum sensum , faciunt , quae non conueniunt . Quae enim in occulto fiunt ab Episcopis , turpe est dicere : The Bishoppes , and Priestes of this time , how doo they endeuoure to keepe either in harte , or in body the Holinesse of Chastitie , without whiche noman shal see God ? They are geuen ouer into a reprobate minde , and doo those thinges , that are not conuenient . For it were shame to vtter , what these Bishoppes doo in Secrete .

Againe he saithe , Bernard . De Conuersione , ad Clericos , Ca. 29. In Opere Triparti . Li. 3. ca. 7. Abstinentes à Remedio Coniugali , posteà in omne flagitium effluunt : Absteininge from the remedie of Marriage , afterwarde they flowe ouer into al kinde of wickednesse .

He that wrote the litle Booke , called Opus Tripartitum , ioined with the Councel of Laterane , saithe thus , Tanta immunditia luxuriae notoria est in multis partibus mundi , non solùm in Clericis , sed etiam in Sacerdotibus : imo , quod horribile est audire , in Praelatis Maioribus : &c. Sutche Notorious filthinesse of Lecherie there is in many partes of the Worlde , not onely in the inferiour Clerkes , but also in Priestes : yea in the greatter Prelates : whiche thinge is horrible to be hearde : &c.

And in the Glose vpon the Constitutions Legantine of Englande it is written thus : De Concubinis Cleri . remouendis . Licet ad profligandum . Paralipomena Vrspergen . Pag. 403. Clerici huiusmodi Concubinas tenent Communiter , apparatu honesto , nomine appellationis Sororiae : Clerkes commonly holde , and haue sutche Concubines , in honeste haueour , vnder the name of their Sisters .

Nicolaus de Clauengijs , complaininge hereof , saithe thus : Capellani , & Canonici similes Episcopis , Indocti , Ebrij , Scortatores : The Chaplaines , and Canons are like to the Bishoppes , Vnlearned , Dronken , and Fornicatours .

Robert Holcote saithe , Rob. Holcot In Librum Sapientiae , Lectione . 182 Sacerdotes moderni sunt Daemones Incubi per luxuriam , & Sacerdotes Priapi , vel Beelphegor , & Angeli Abyssi : The Priestes of our time by their Lecherie , are like the Sprites called Incubi , the Priestes of Priap●● , or Beelphegor , and the Angels of the pitte of Helle.

Hulderichus in Olde times the Bishop of Augusta in Germanie , Hulderichus Episcopus Augustan . wrote sharpely hereof against Pope Nicolas in this wise : Decreta tua super Clericorum continentia à discretione inueni aliena : Multos confilij tui assentatores hominibus , non Deo , sub falsa specie continentiae placere volentes , grauiora vides committere : I haue founde , thy Decrees , touchinge the Single life of Priestes , to be voide of discretion . Thou seest , that many folowers of thy counsel , willinge vnder ● fained colour of Continente life , rather to please Man , then God , commit hainous actes . In the ende be concludeth thus , Qua nosti discretionis disciplina , Pharisaicam ab Ouili Dei extirpa Doctrinam : By sutche discipline of discretion , as you knowe beste , roote this Pharisaical Doctrine out of Goddes Folde .

But for as mutche , Wo●phgangus Wissenburgius in praefatione in Antiologiam Papae . as M. Hardinge hath no skil in this Epistle of Hulderichus , he maie vnderstande , that his owne Pope Pius , otherwise called Aeneas Syluius , maketh euident mention of the same .

Further Mantuanus the Poete saithe ,

Petriue domus polluta fluenti Marcescit luxu : Nulla hîc arcana reuelo . Sanctus ager Scurris , venerabilis Ara Cynaedis Seruit : Honorandae Diuûm Ganymedibus Aedes .

The matter hereof is sutche , as is not woorthy to be Englished .

But what pleasure can it be , to stande so longe in so vnsauery a place ? They themselues saie thus , 2. Quae. 7. Lator. In Glossa . Fornicatio Simplex non est digna depositione : S●●ple Fornication ( in a Prieste ) is no iuste cause of Depriuation . The cause thereof in an other Glose is alleged thus , Quia pauci sine illo vitio inueniuntur : Dist. 81. Maximianus . In Glossa . Bicause there be fewe Priestes founde without that faulte .

To be shorte , Polydorus Vergilius saithe , Nullius delicti crimen maius Ordini dede●us , Polyd. Vergil . De Inuentorib . rer. Lib. 5. Ca. 4. plùs mali Religioni , plus doloris bonis attulit : No kinde of crime euer brought either more shame to the Order of Priesthoode : or more hinderance to Religion : or more griefe to the Godly , then the life of Single Priestes .

These , these , M. Hardinge , were the causes , that moued Pope Pius commonly to saie , as it is before alleged : As Marriage vpon good , and greate considerations was taken from Priestes , so nowe vpon better , and greatter considerations it were to be restoared to them againe . And therefore he saithe in his discourse of the Councel of Basile , Aeneas Syluiu● De Con. Basil● Lib. 2. Fortasse non esset peius , Sacerdotes complures vxorari . Quoniam multi saluarentur in Sacerdotio Coniugato , qui nunc in sterili Presbyterio damnantur : Perhaps it were not woorste , that many Priestes were Married . For many might be saued in Married Priesthoode , whiche nowe in barren Priesthoode are condemned . If the former of these twoo Saieinges be so doubteful , yet this later is plaine , and cleare , and voide of doubte . In like sense , and sorte he writeth vpon good aduise , Aeneas Syluius Epist. 321. ad Iohan . Fontem . and deliberation to his frende : Quoniam huc ventum est , vt Legi Carnis resistere nequeas , meliùs est Nubere , quàm Vri : For as mutche as the mater is growen so far , that ye cannot withstande the Lawe of the Fleashe , Better it is to Marrie , then to burne .

So saithe Panormitane , Extra , De Clericis Coniugatis , Cùm olim . Credo pro bono , & salute animarum , quòd esset salubre statutum , vt non valentes continere , possint contrahere . Quia experientia docente contrarius prorsus effectus sequitur ex illa Lege Continentiae : cùm hodiè non viuant spiritualiter , nec sint mundi : Sed maculentur illicito coitu , cum ipsorum grauissimo peccato : Vbi cum propria vxore esset Castitas . Vnde deberet Ecclesia facere sicut bonus medicus : vt , si medicina , experientia docente , potitis officiat , quàm profit , eam tollat . Et vtinam idem esset in omnibus Constitutionibus positiuis : I beleeue , it were a good Lawe , and for the wealthe ; and safetie of Soules , that sutche , as cannot liue Chaste , maie contracte Matrimonie . For wee learne by experience , that of the Lawe of Continente , or Single Life the contrarie effecte hath folowed . For as mutche as nowe a daies they liue not spiritually , nor be cleane , and chaste : but with their greate Sinne are defiled with vnlawful Copulation : whereas with theire owne wiues they should liue Chastely . Therefore the Churche ought to doo , as the skilful Physician vseth to doo : Who , if he see by experience , that his Medicine hurteth rather , then doothe good , taketh it cleane awaie . And woulde God the same waie were taken with al positiue Constitutions .

So saithe Durandus , Durandus , De modo Celebrandi Concilium , Titul. 46. Vtile esset , vt in Concilio Matrimonium Sacerdotibus romittatur . Frustrà enim hactenus coacti sunt ad Castitatem : It were good , that in a Councel Priestes Marriage were set at libertie : For hitherto it hath benne in vaine , to force them to Chastitie .

So saithe Martinus Peresius , Martinus Peresius . Multis pijs visum est , vt Leges de Coelibatu tollerentur propter scandala : Many godly menne haue thought it good , that the Lawes of Single Life should be abolished , for auoidinge the offence of the people .

M. Hardinge wil saie , The Prieste hathe Vowed , and muste kéepe his Vowe . But Pope Pius , as it is saide before , gaue counsel of Marriage vnto a Prieste , that had made a Vowe .

It appeareth right wel , bothe by that hath benne already alleged , & also by the common experience , & practise of the world , that a Vowe importeth not alwaies a Chaste life . Optatus Contra Parmenianum Donatist . Lib. 6. Hierony in Hieremi . lib. 2. Ca. 7. Ambro. De Virginib . Lib. 1. Optatus Mileuitanus saithe , In Mirella signum est voluntatis : non Castitatis auxilium : In the apparel there is a token of the Wil : not a healpe towardes Chastitie .

S. Hierome saithe , Quid prodest Corporis pudicitia , animo constuprato ? When the Minde , or Harte is defloured , what auaileth the Chastitie of the Body ?

S. Ambrose saithe , Non imperari potest Virginitas , sed optari . Nam , quae supra nos sunt , in Voto magis sunt , quàm in Magisterio : Wee maie wishe for Virginitie : but commaunde it wee cannot . For the thinges , that be aboue vs , and out of our power , are rather of desire , then of Commaundement .

Hereof Epiphanius maketh this Conclusion : Epiphani . Lib. 2. Haeresi. 41. Vt ne confundantur apud homines , occultè scortantur : & sub Solitudinis , aut continentiae specie libidinem exercent . Melius est itaque lapsum à cursu , palàm sibi vxorem accipere secundum Leges : Leste they should be shamed before menne , they keepe Harlottes priuily : and vnder the colour of Solitarie , or Continent Life , they practise theire filthy pleasure . Better is it therefore for a man , beinge fallen from his course , openly to take vnto him selfe a wife accordinge to the Lawe . So saithe S. Hierome , as I haue before alleged : Huiusmodi Virginibus apertè dicendum est , Hieronym . Ad Demetriadem . vt aut nubant , si se non possunt continere : aut contineant , si nolunt nubere : To sutche virgins wee muste saie plainely , that either they Marrie , if they cannot Conteine : Or els that they Conteine , if they wil not Marrie . Bernardus ad Sororem . De modo bene viuendi . Sermo 62. So saithe S. Bernard vnto his Sister : Quod incautè vouisti , ne impleas : Impia est promissio , quae scelere adimpletur : That thou haste vnaduisedly Vowed , see thou keepe it not . It is a wicked promisse , that is perfourmed with wickednesse .

To be shorte , 4. Senten dist. 36. Quaest. 1. Iohannes Scotus saithe , Si votum Continentiae est annexum Ordini Sacro solùm ex praecepto Ecclesiae , sequitur , quòd non simpliciter illegitimat ad contrahendum : If the Vowe , or promisse of Chastitie be annexed vnto Holy Orders Onely by force of the Constitution , or Commaundement of the Churche , then dooth it not of necessitie , and fine force , vnhable a man to contracte Matrimonie .

How be it , hereof wée haue saide already so mutche , as to a reasonable man maie seeme sufficient .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 1.

Wee receiue , and embrace al the Canonical Scriptures , bothe of the Olde , and Newe Testament , geuinge thankes to our God , who hath raised vp vnto vs that Light , whiche wee might euer haue before our eies : leaste either by the suttletie of man , or by the snares of the Diuel , wee should be carried awaie to errours and lies . Also that these be the Heauenly Voices , whereby God hath opened vnto vs his wil : and that onely in them mannes harte can haue settled reste : that in them be aboundantly , and fully comprehended al thinges , what so euer be needeful for our Healthe , as Origene , Augustine , Chrysostome , and Cyrillus haue taught : That they be the very mighte and strength of God to attaine to Saluation : That they be the Fundations of the Prophetes , & Apostles , whereupon is builte the Churche of God : That they be the very sure , and infallible Rule , whereby maie be tried whether the Churche doo swarue , or erre , and whereunto al Ecclesiastical Doctrine ought to be called to accoumpte : and that against these Scriptures neither Lawe , nor Ordinaunce , nor any custome ought to be hearde : no though Paule him selfe , or an Angel from Heauen should comme , & teache the contrarie .

M. Hardinge .

But why doo yee not here plainely declare , whiche be the Bookes of the Scriptures , that ye allowe , and whiche be they * * Vntruthe . For wee reiecte no parte of al the Scriptures . that ye reiecte ? In general , ye saie , that ye embrace al the Canonical Scriptures . ● Macha . 12 Iacob . 2. Yet if a man presse you with the place of the Machabees , for Praier to be made for the Deade , and with the woordes of S. Iames Epistle againste your Iustification of Faithe onely , and likewise with certaine other places of the Scriptures , whiche be accompted in the Canon of the Churche , againste certaine other your false doctrines : in this case * * Vntruthe : For wee denie no more , then S. Augustine , S. Hierome , and other Holy Fathers haue denied . your wonte is to denie those Scriptures to be Canonical . Yet here ye beare the worlde in hande ye allowe al. Would God there were in you either more truthe . or lesse crafte . Wel , ye geue thankes to God for the Scriptures , for that hauinge them before your eies , ye are staied in Truthe , assured , that by the suttelty of man , or snares of the Diuel , ye be not caried awaie into Errours , and Lies . And is it so in deede ? I praie you syrs of what secte be ye ? or of whiche secte is eche one of you ? For I dare boldely saye , and so the worlde seethe , that yee agree not al in one . If yee saie , yee be Lutherans , then muste I further demaunde of you , of whiche sorte of Lutherans ? For that puddle runneth out by many sinckes . Be yee Zuinglians , Arians , Osiandrines , Libertines , Adiaphoristes , Anabaptistes , Caluinistes , or Sathanis●es ? What Priuiledge haue ye before your felowes ? a matche beinge made betwene you ( I meane that newe Cleregie of Englande ) and the other sectes of our time , &c. If yee haue this lighte of the Scriptures before your eies , how is it , that ye agree not within your selues ? yea how is it , that eche one of you oftentimes disagreeth with him selfe ? howe is it that * * Childishe , and fonde vntruthe : For the Communion Booke was neuer but once changed . But see the often changes of the Masse . so many times ye haue chaunged your Comm●nion Booke , the order of your Seruice , your doctrine of the blessed Sacrament , your Homilies , &c. Who knoweth not how in the matter of the Sacrament your chiefe Capitaines haue shewed them selues inconstant and mutable , and contrary to them selues . I meane Cranmere , Ridley , Latimer , and that greate Rabbin Peter Martyr him selfe ? As for the res● , they be not woorthy to be named .

But what saie ye ? be these the Heauenly Voices , whereby God hath opened vnto vs his wil ? Then howe dare yee to transgresse his wil declared in these Voices , where ye reade expressely , that he , * * S. Cyprian saithe , Non iungitur Ecclesiae , qui ab Euangelio separatur : De Lapsis Sermo. 5. whiche heareth not the Churche , is to be taken for no better , then a Heathen , and a Publicane ? As yee procede , ye saye , that onely in the Scriptures mans harte can haue setled reste , and that in them be abundantly and fully comprehended al thinges , what so euer be needeful for our Saluation , as Origen , Augustine , Chrysostome , and Cyrillus haue taught . Either you knowe not , what you saie , sir Defender , nor the thinges of whiche you make affirmation , 1. Timo. 6. as S. Paule saile of suche , as ye are , writinge to Timothe , or you are fowly ouerseene . If the harte of man haue setled rest in the Scriptures onely , Mans harte hath not setled reste in Scriptures onely . as you saye , then in nothinge els but in the Scriptures . By this you seeme to trouble and disqutet many hartes . For if this be true , * * Vntruthe . For Ab●l ●earde the Woorde of God . Reade the An●●veare . then had good Abel no better reste in his harte , then wicked restlesse Cain .

When the Holy Booke of Scripture was loste , whiche God restored by Esdras , were there none in al that time , whose hartes had setled reste ? What foolishe , and absurde doctrine is this ? * * A woorthy doubte . What if it had pleased God , there had neuer benne letter written of the Olde , or Newe Testament ? shoulde not Gods frendes haue founde his peace that passeth al sense , Philip. 4. as S. Paule saieth ? Had Paule , Antony , Hilarion , Pambus , and many other Holy men liuinge in Wildernesse * * Vntruthe . For S. Augustine saithe , Antonius Scripturas Diuinas memoriter audiendo tenuit , &c. without letters , no reste , ne quiet at their hartes ? Nay , who had the like ? And whereas you saie , that al thinges needeful for our Saluation be abundantly , and fully comprehended in the Scriptures , this is also as false , as sundry other partes of your Doctrine . For if al thinges necessary to Saluation be conteined in the Scriptures , then what so euer is not in them conteined , the same is not necessarie : If not necessarie , why shoulde we be laden with vnnecessarie burdens ? Then awaie with al Traditions at a clappe , be they neuer so Apostolike , neuer so Auncient , neuer so Healthful , neuer so longe time in the Churche continued . Remember you not , what the moste renoumed Fathers haue written of the necessitie of Traditions ? Or if you remember them , what thought you when you wrote thus ? Let Learned and Holy Basil be hearde in steede of many , if not to reuoke you from your errour , yet to discredite you , and staye others in the truthe . Lib. de Spiritu Sancto . ca. 27. His woordes be these : Of the doctrines , whiche be preached in the Churche , certaine we haue out of the Scripture written , certaine we haue receiued in secrete Mistery by tradition of the Apostles , * * Yet nowe the very same necessarie Traditions be quite forgotten , and abolished , yea euen in the Churche of Rome . whiche bothe be of equal force to Godlines . Neither concerninge these any man gainesaieth , be he of neuer so smal knowledge . For if we goe about to reiect the customes that be not set foorth in writinge , as beinge of litle regarde , then shal we condemne those thinges also , whiche we haue in the Gospel necessarie to Saluation . Yea rather we shal bringe the preachinge of the Faithe but to a bare name . For so they were taken for Heretikes , whiche regarded not the solemne faste of Lente * * Vntruthe . Reade the Answeare . receiued at the Apostles , Faste of Lente . as we reade in S. Augustine , De Haer. ad Quoduultdeum , cap. 53. and in the Councel of Gangra in an Epistle to the Bishops of Armenia . Euen so they whiche denied the * * Vntruthe . For hereby bothe S. P●ule , and S. Hierome , and other good men are condemned of Heresie . distinction of a Bishop and a Prieste , were condemned of Heresie , as we finde in S. Augustine in the Booke and Chapter aforesaide , and in Epiphanius Lib. 3. Cap. 75. In the Councel of Constance the same is to be founde .

Againe if al thinges necessarie to Saluation be * * Vntruthe . For wee saie not , Al things are there expressed . expressed in the Scriptures , to what purpose saide S. Paule concerninge order , and maner , to be vsed at the celebration of the holy Sacramente : Coetera cùm venero disponam , 1. Corin. 11. Epist. 2. As for other thinges I wil take Order for them , when I come ? What meaneth S. Iohn to saye , Hauinge other thinges to write to you of , I woulde not ( write them ) in Paper and inke : for I truste to be with you , and speake to you mouthe to mouthe . To conclude muche , that might be obiected , in fewe woordes for breuities sake , what saie you , sir Defender , shal we finde al thinges necessarie to Saluation in the Scripture ? * * Stale , and fonde questions . Howe thinke you of the Scripture it selfe ? How knowe you this to be the Scripture ? How knowe ye the Gospel of Mathewe , Marke , Luke , and Iohn , to be theirs , whose names they beare ? This can you not finde in al the Scripture , * * Vntruthe . For it is not necessarie to Saluation . and yet is the same necessary to be beleeued . What Scripture have you to admitte these , and to refuse the Booke bearinge the name of * * They were written by Heretiques in de●ogation of the Truthe . Peter , the Gospel of Thomas , of Bartholome we , of Nicodeme ? Why admitte you not the Prophetes that Basilides would to be allowed , but onely the foure greate , and the twelue lesser ? what auctoritie haue you to staie your selfe by , concerninge these : but onely that of the Churche ? for Scripture haue you none for proufe hereof . Then hath not Scripture al thinges in it necessarie for a Christen man . Homousion . Is it not necessarie to beleeue the Sonne of God to be Homousion , that is to saie , of the same Substance with the Father ? whiche if you denie , you restore the olde condemned Heresie of the Arians . * * Vntruthe . For Epiphamque 〈◊〉 , Sensus eius notain●s vbique est . The same can you not finde in the Scripture . Where in al the Bible finde you that God the Father is Ingenitus ? Where finde you , that the Holy Ghoste proceedeth from the Father and the Sonne ? that the blessed Virgin Marie continued in her Virginitie ? that suche as be Baptized of Heretikes oughte to be Baptized againe ? S. Imaes . That in fantes ought to be Baptized ? That the Foure Bookes of the Gospels were written by Mathewe , Marke , Luke , and Iohn , by what Scripture can you prooue it ? To ende , where finde you expressely in al the Scriptures three Persons to be one God ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here to weighe downe the Authoritie of Goddes Holy Woorde , M. Hardinge hath brought in a heape of ordinarie stale quarrelles , Of the difference bitwéene Priestes , and Bishoppes : of Lente : of the Communion Booke : of the Homilies : of the Order of Seruice : and of the Perpetual Virginitie of Our Lady . His whole drifte herein is , to beare vs in hande , that there is very litle , or none Authoritie in the Scriptures : and that the whole Credite , and certainetie of our Faithe resteth onely in the Churche of Rome .

He seemeth to take it in scorne , that the Woorde of God shoulde be called the Light . Psalm. 118. Psalm. 18. Theophylact. in Lucam , Ca. 16. Yet notwithstandinge the Prophete Dauid saithe , Thy Woorde is a Lanterne to my feete . And againe , The Commaundement of the Lorde is Lightsome , geeuing Light vnto the eies . And Theophylacte saith , Verbum Dei est Lucerna , qua Fur deprehenditur : The Woorde of God is the Candel , whereby ther Theefe ( or false Teacher ) is espied .

Whereas M. Hardinge demaundeth of vs so pleasauntly , what Scriptures we allowe , and what wée reiecte , he troubleth him selfe with an idle , and a néedelesse question . For we embrace , and reuerence euery parcel , and title of the Scriptures without exception , not refusinge any parte thereof , that hath benne allowed by the Ancient , Learned , Catholique Fathers of the Churche of God .

Neither doo wee so scornefully calle Goddes Holy Woorde , Albert. Pigghius , Lib. 3. Cap. 3. Hierar . a Nose of waxe , a Shipmannes Hose , or a Dead letter : as sundrie of that side haue delited to cal it .

Touchinge the Booke of the Machabees , wee saie nothinge , but that we finde written by S. Hierome , Iohan. Sleidan . Lib. 23. S. Augustine , & other Holy Fathers . S. Hierome saithe . Machabaeorum Libros legit quidem Ecclesia : Sed eos inter Canonicas Scripturas non recipit : In deede the Churche readeth the Bookes of the Machabees : Hieronym . in Prooemio in Prouerb Salomonis . In the first parte Chap. 10. Diuis. 2. but shee receiueth them not emonge the Canonical allowed Scriptures .

Or Praier for the Dead , wee shal haue place more conuenient to speake hereafter .

The place of S. Iames , touchinge the Iustification of Faithe , & Woorkes , is answeared before . Neither doo wee discredite any parte either of the Authoritie , or of the Doctrine of that whole Epistle : notwithstandinge Eusebius saithe , It was written by somme other , Euseb. li. 2. ca. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and not by S. Iames . His woordes be these : Istius Iacobi , qui lustus , & Oblias vocabatur , dicitur esse Epistola , quae prima scribitur inter Canonicas . Sciendum autem est , illam Epistolam esse Spuriam : The Opinion is , that the Epistle , whiche is reckened the firste emonge the Canonicalles , is of this Iames , whiche was called Iustus , and Oblias . But wee muste vnderstande , that it is a Bastarde Epistle , and not written by S. Iames .

Likewise S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . in Catalogo Ecclesiasticor . Scriptorum . Epistola Iacobi ab alio quopiam sub eius nomine edita asseritur : It is saide , that the Epistle of S. Iames , was set foorthe by somme other man vnder his name . This therefore is no Newe fantasie : but the Iudgemente of the Ancient Learned Fathers . Neuerthelesse wee doo bothe receiue the same Epistle , and also reade it in Oure Churches : and allowe euery Clause , and Sentence , that therein is written .

M. Hardinge saithe , If yee haue this Lighte of the Scriptures before your eies , howe is it , that yee agree no better emongest your selues ? And here he reckeneth vp by rote a many of names of his owne makinge , Lutherans , Zuinglians , Arians , Osiandrians , Libertines , Adiaphoristes , Anabaptistes , Caluinistes , and Sathanistes . In whiche his so pleasante fansie , he maie haue leaue to sporte him selfe , while he listeth . Woorde written . God be thanked , wée agrée thorowly togeather in the whole Substance of the Religion of Christe : and altogeather with one harte , and one Sprite doo glorifie God the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe . Certainely S. Augustine , S. Hierome , S. Chrysostome , Epiphanius , and Theophilus , as it appeareth by theire writinges , agreed no better togeather in theire time , then wee doo nowe . Yet had they , and euery of them the Woorde of God : and the same Woorde of God was a Light vnto their feete .

It was not for any greate stoare of better mater , I trowe , that M. Hardinge thus chargeth vs with so often changinge the Communion Booke . For of more , then of one Onely Change , he cannot tel vs . And if there had benne lesse then that , there had benne no change at al. And yet , for that One change , he him selfe in the meane season hath changed thrise . But the Holy Communion Booke , and the Order of the Holy Ministration standeth , and by Goddes Mercie shal stand stil , without any further Change .

How be it , Platin. in Sixto . 1 Polydor. Vergil . De Inuentorib . rer. Li. 5. Cap. 10. Gentle Reader , if thou wilt knowe the often Alterations , and Changes of the Masse , reade , I beseche thée , Platyna , and Polydore Vergil , touchinge the same : There shalte thou finde , howe , and by whome , and vpon what occasion , and in what processe of time , al the partes of the Masse were peeced , and sette togeather : and that in the space of seuen hundred whole yéeres scarcely , and with mutche adoo it was made vp at laste , and brought to somme perfection .

Christes Commaundement of Hearinge the Churche is answeared before . S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . De Fide . & Simbol . Esai . 8. Credimus Sanctam Ecclesiam : non Credimus in Sanctam Ecclesiam : Wee beleeue , that there is a Holy Churche : But wee Beleue not in the Holy Churche . For the Churche is not God , nor is hable of her selfe to make , or alter any one Article of the Faithe . The Prophete Esay saithe , Ad Legem potiùs , & ad Testimonium . Si non responderint secundum Verbum hoc , non erit illis Lux Matutina : To the Lawe rather , and to the Testimonie . If they answeare not accordinge to this Woorde , they shal haue no Morninge Light .

M. Hardinge saithe further , If quietnesse of Conscience comme of the Woorde of God onely , then had Abel no more quietnesse of Conscience then wicked restlesse Cain . Then should Paule the Eremite , and Antonie , and Hilarion , and Pambus , and other Holy menne , liuinge in Wildernesse without Letters , haue had no reste , ne quiet at theire hartes . And why so ? Bicause they had no Woorde written .

Who woulde thinke , that M. Hardinge , bearinge sutche a countenance of Diuinitie , woulde thus goe aboute to deceiue him selfe with a pointe of Sophistrie ? Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . In Genes. Homil. 2. Hebrae . 3. Deus Conditor Humani Generis ab initio per seipsum homibus loquebatur : God the Creatour of Mankinde , from the beginninge spake vnto menne by him selfe , in his owne personne . And S. Paule saithe , Deus olim multifariàm , multisquemodis Patribus locutus est : In Old times God spake many waies , and in sundrie sortes vnto the Fathers . And doothe M. Hardinge thinke , when God him selfe in his owne personne , and presently spake vnto Abel , that Abel bearde not then the Woorde of God ? Wée speake not so precisely , and nicely of Goddes Woorde written in Paper . For so it is a Creature Corruptible , and shal consume , and perishe , as other Corruptible Creatures doo . But the Woorde of God , whiche wée speake of , endureth for euer .

S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . in Iobum . Ca. 27. Quomodò Aeternae erunt Scripturae Diuinae , si Mundus certo fine est terminandus ? Verum est quidem , quòd Librorum pelliculae cum ipsis Literis abolendae sunt . Sed , quia subiungit Dns , Verba verò mea non praeteribunt , proculdubio , quod illis apicibus pollicetur , erit Aeternum : Howe shal the Holy Scriptures he Euerlastinge , seeinge the Worlde shal haue on ende ? True it is , that the parchement , or leaues of the Bookes with the letters and al , Traditions . shal be abolished . But for as mutche as our Lorde addeth , My Woordes shal neuer passe , doubtelesse ( though the Papers , and Letters perishe , yet ) the thinge , that is promised by the same letters , shal laste for euer . Chrysostom . 2. Corin. Homil. 18. So Chrysostome saithe , Paulus Praedicationem non Scrip●am appellat , Euangelium : Preachinge not written Paule calleth the Gospel .

That M. Hardinge addeth of Antonius , and Paulus , & Hilarion , & other Eremites , that they liued in Wildernesse without Letters , and therefore presumeth , they liued without the Woorde of God , it is very vnaduisedly spoken , and vtterly vntrue . For proufe whereof , to name onely One in stéede of the reste , S. Augustine saithe , that Antonius the Eremite was notably Learned , and perfite in the Scriptures . August . De Doctrina Christiana Lib. 1. In Prologo . His woordes be these , Antonius sine vlla scientia Literarum , Scripturas Diuinas & memoriter audiendo tenuisse , & prudenter cogitando intellexisse , praedicatur : It is reported , that Antonius , without knowledge of Letter , bothe Learned the Holy Scriptures , and bare them wel in minde , by hearinge : and also by Wisedome and studie , vnderstoode them .

And whereas M. Hardinge woulde séeme to make sutche an accoumpte of Praier , Augus●in . De Scalic Paradisi , Cap. 11. and Holinesse without knowledge , S. Augustine saithe , Lectio sine Meditatione arida est : Meditatio sine Lectione erronea est : Oratio sine Meditatione tepida est : Readinge without Meditation , or studie is drie , and barren : Meditation , or studie without Readinge is erroneous : And Praier without Cogitation , or studie is halfe colde , and vnfruiteful . Thus wée sée by S. Augustines Iudgement , that the Force , and Substance bothe of Praier , and of Meditation dependeth of Readinge .

How be it , what Comforte , and peace of Conscience wée haue by Hearinge the Woorde of God , S. Paule can tel vs somewhat better , then M. Hardinge . Thus he saithe , Rom. 15. Quaecunque Scripta sunt , &c. What so euer thinges are written , they are written for our learninge , that by Patience , and Comforte of the Scriptures we maye haue hope . Euen so saithe Christe him selfe , Iohan. 17. O Father , this is the Euerlastinge Life , that they maye know thee , the onely , and very God : and Iesus Christe , whome thou haste sente .

But S. Paule saithe . 2. Thessalon . 2. Basili . De Spiritu Sancto . Ca. 27. Keepe the Traditions , whiche ye haue receiued , either by Epistle , or by Woorde . And S. Basile reckeneth Traditions to be One , and Equal with the Woorde of God . Firste , that S. Basile worte those woordes rather of zele , then of Iudgement , it maie easily appeare , by that the selfe same Traditions , that he there specially nameth , and so highely commendeth , are for the greattest parte already abolished , and quite foregotten , yea and that euen in the Churche of Rome . Yet the Woorde of God endureth stil , and shal endure for euer . For example , by one of S. Basiles necessarie Traditions , It is not lawful for any man , to kneele in the Churche vpon the Sonnedaie : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . But euery man is bounde by the same Tradition , at Sermon , at Praier , & at the Communion , to stande vpright . And this , he saithe , was geuen vnto vs in Secrete Charge by the Apostles of Christe . This so necessarie , and so Apostolique Tradition is now dissolued , and broken , and vtterly foregotten , not onely in Louaine , but also in Rome .

S. Augustine saithe , Augustinus ad Casulanum . By Tradition of the Apostles , bitwéene Easter , and Witsondaie it was not lawful for any man to Faste . Yet now wée Faste within the same daies so forebidden , and the same kinde of Faste is thought lawful , the Apostles Tradition to the contrarie notwithstandinge .

The reste of S. Basiles Traditions stande in halowinge of Water : in Blessinge of Oile : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . in Praieinge towardes the Easte : in vtteringe certaine woordes of Inuocation at the shewinge foorthe of the Breade of Thankesgeuinge vnto the people . These thinges , I beléeue , M. Hardinge him selfe neuer thought to be Equiualente with the Woorde of God .

But if these , and other like Traditions be so weighty , and so necessarie , as he séemeth to make them , Traditions . then let him tel vs in good soothe , and without fable : what were these Mystical Solemne Woordes of Inuocation , that S. Bas●le saithe were spoken by the Prieste , at the Openinge , or shewinge foorthe of the Sacrament ? If they be so necessarie to be vsed , and continued in the Churche of God , why hath he , & his whole Romaine Cleregie quite foregotten them ? If he , and his Cleregie haue foregotten them , and vse them not , and care not for them , how can he saie , or maie wée thinke , they are so necessarie to Saluation ?

This is the Simplicitie , and plainenesse of M. Hardinges dealinge . He telleth vs many tales of the Apostles Traditions , being him selfe the manifeste despiser , and breaker of the same Traditions . Touchinge the woordes of S. Paule , I marueile , that M. Hardinge could so easily be deceiued . For S. Paule him selfe , euen in the same woordes , & in the selfe same line would haue tolde him , that by the name of Traditions , he meante , not vnwritten Verities , and Liuelesse Ceremonies , as he supposeth , but the selfe same Substance of Religion , & Doctrine , that he had vttered vnto the Thessaloniens before , either by Epistle , or by Preachinge .

These be his Woordes , 2. Thessalon . 2. Holde the Traditions , whiche ye haue receiued either by Epistle , or by Woorde . He calleth them Traditions , although they were conteined in his Epistles , and deliuered to them by Writinge . For the Apostles preachinge , & writinge , Nicephor . Lib. 2. Cap. 34. in grounde and substance were al one . Nicephorus saithe , Paulus , quae praesens oratione sua dilucidè docuerat , eadem absens per compendium in memoriam , scripta Epistola , reuocare voluit : Paule , what thinges , beinge presente , he had plainely taught by Mouthe , the same thinges afterwarde , beinge absente , he shortely called to their remembrance , by writinge of an Epistle . The like he writeth also of S. Mathewe , Nicephor . Lib. 2. Cap. 45. Matthaeus discedens ( aliò praedicatum ) absentiam suam scripto praesenti compensauit : S. Mathewe departinge ( to preache in other places ) recompensed his absence by presente writinge .

S. Paule vnto the Philippians saithe thus , Philippen 3. Eadem scribere mihi quidem non pigrum : vobis au●em necessarium : To write vnto you the selfe same thinges , vnto me it is not paineful : but in your behalfe , it is necessarie . These woordes S. Hierome expoundeth thus : Hieronym . in Epistol. ad Philippen . Cap. 3. Theophylact. in Lucam , Cap. 1. Eadem scribere , hoc est , eadem repetere , quae praesens dixeram : To write the same thinges , that is to saie , to make rehearsal of the same thinges , that I tolde you by Mouthe , whe● I was presente .

So saithe Theophylacte , speakinge in the personne of S. Luke : Priùs te sine Scripto institui : nunc scriptum tibi trado Euangelium : Atque ita mentem tuam munio , vt ne obliuiscatur eorum , quae priùs sine scriptis Tradita sunt : Before this time I haue instructed thee without writinge . Nowe I deliuer vnto thee a written Gospel . And so I furnishe thy minde , that it forgeate not the thinges , that were deliuered thee before without writinge .

So saithe Irenaeus , Irenae . lib. 3. ca. 1. Apostoli tunc Euangelium praeconiauerunt . Posteà verò per Dei voluntatem , illud in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt , Fundamentum , & Columnam Fidei nostrae futurum : Then the Apostles preached the Gospel . And afterwarde by Goddes wil , they deliuered the same to vs in writinge , to be a Fundation , and a Piller vnto our Faithe .

And therefore Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in . 2. Corin. Homil. 18. Paulus etiam non Scriptam Praedicationem , vocat Euangelium : S. Paule calleth his Preachinge not written , by the name of the Gospel .

But me thinketh , M. Hardinge , so stoutely striuinge for the bare name of Traditions , should better haue Learned S. Hieromes lesson touchinge the same . Hieronym . in 2. Thessalon . 2. Thus he writeth vpon these woordes of S. Paule , Holde the Traditions , whiche ye haue learned , either by Our Epistle , or by Our Woorde : Quando sua vult teneri , non vult extranea superaddi : Whereas S. Paule wil haue his owne thinges to be keapte , he wil haue no strange thinges thereto to be added . Traditions .

And , that S. Paule by this Woorde , Traditions , meante not Ceremonies , or certaine Secrete vnknowen Verities , but the very Substance of the Gospel of Christe , as it is saide before : if M. Hardinge wil not beleue vs , yet let him beléeue S. Paule him selfe . 1. Corinth. 15. Thus he writeth , Tradidi vobis in primis , quod etiam accepi , quòd Christus mortuus est pro peccatis nostris secundum Scripturas : Firste I haue deliuered to you , ( or geuen to you by Tradition ) the same thinge , that I receiued : that is , that Christe died for our sinnes , accordinge to the Scriptures . Here by S. Paules Woordes , the Deathe of Christe is called a Tradition .

So saithe S. Basile , Basilius De Spiritu Sancto . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hoc palàm impugnat Salutaris Baptismatis Traditionem : Baptismus noster iuxta ipsam Domini Traditionem est in Nomine Patris , & Filij , & Spiritus Sancti : Per ipsam Baptismi Traditionem habemus Confessionem Fidei : This thinge is plainely againste the Tradition of Healtheful Baptisme : Our Baptisme , accordinge to the Tradition of our Lorde , is in the name of the Father , of the Sonne , and of the Holy Ghoste : By the very Tradition of Baptisme wee haue the Confession of Faithe .

S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . ad Pompeium . contra Epis●●lam Stephani . Vnde est ista Traditio ? Vtrum ne de Dominica , & Euangeliea Authoritate descendens , an de Apostolorum Mandatis , atque Epistolis veniens ? &c. Si igitur aut in Euangelio praecipitur , aut in Apostolorum Epistolis & Actis continetur , obseruetur etiam haec Sancta Traditio : From whence haue wee this Tradition ? Whether commeth it from the Authoritie of Our Lorde , and of the Gospel : or els from the Commaundementes , and Epistles of the Apostles ? &c. Therefore if it be either commaunded in the Gospel , or conteined in the Epistles , or Actes of the Apostles , let vs keepe the same Tradition . Likewise Eusebius saithe , Polycarpus , Euseb. li. 5. ca. 20. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . c●m recepisset ea ab illis , qui ipsi viderant vitam Verbi , nuntiauit eadem , omnia Scripturis consona : Polycarpus , when he had receiued these thinges of them , that had seene the Life of the Woorde , vtteted , and shewed the same , beinge al agreeable vnto the Scriptures .

Of sutche Traditions , it is plaine , S. Paule speaketh . Nowe therefore Iudge thou , Gentle Reader , howe truely , and handsomely M. Hardinge allegeth these Woordes of S. Paule , to serue his purpose .

As for Lenten Faste , the Superstition onely excepted , wee condemne it not , but vse it stil . But how can M. Hardinge saie , either that Lente is so necessarie , as he maketh it : or els , that it is the Tradition of the Apostles ? Verily S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . Epist. 86. Quibus diebus non oporteat ieiunare , & quibus oporteat , Praecepto Domini , vel Apostolorum non inuenio definitum : Vpon what daies wee ought not to Faste , and vpon what daies we ought to Faste , I finde it not appointed , or limited by any commaundement , either of Our Lorde , or of the Apostles .

So saithe Socrates , Socrates , Lib. ● . Cap. 22. Euangelia non imposuerunt iugum seruitutis : Sed homines ipsi suis quisque locis propter remissionem , & memoriam Passionis , Pascha , & alios Dies Festos , sicut voluerunt , ex Consuetudine quadam celebrarunt . Non enim hoc vel Seruator , vel Apostoli Lege aliqua obseruandum esse mandauerunt : The Gospel hath laide vpon vs no Yoke of bondage : But menne them selues in the Countries where they dwelte , for release of laboure , and Remembrance of the Passion of Christe , of a certaine Custome , keapte the Easter , and other Holy daies , eche man , as he woulde . For neither Our saueour , nor the Apostles by any Lawe commaunded these thinges .

Likewise saithe Cassiodorus , Cassidor . Lib. 5. Ca. 38. Alij Pisces solummodò comedunt : Alij vnà cum Piscibus vtuntur etiam Volatilibus : Alij vsque ad No●am ●einnantes , sine discretione Ciborum reficiuntur . Puto , Apostolos singulorum hoc reliquisse sententiae , vt vnusquisque Operetur , non timore , aut necessitate , quod bonum est : Somme menne ( in the time of the Lenten Faste ) eate onely Fishe : Others vse bothe Fish● , and Foule too : Somme others , when they haue Fasted vntil three of the Clocke in the afternoone , afterward they refreashe theire bodies without difference or Choise of meates . Lenten Faste . I thinke , the Apostles leafte this mater to euery mannes discretion , that euery man maye doo good without feare , or Superstition , or necessitie .

Tertullian likewise saithe , Tertull. De Ieiunio , contra Physichos . De coetero indifferenter ieiunandum , ex arbitrio , non ex imperio Nouae Disciplinae , pro temporibus , & causis vniuscuiusque . Sic & Apostolos obseruasse , nullum aliud imponentes iugum certorum , & in Commune omnibus obeundorum ieiuniorum : Hencefoorth wee muste Foste without compulsion , of free wil , not by commaundemente of this Newe Discipline , accordingly as euery man shal see time , and cause . For so , it appeareth , the Apostles keapte it , laieinge on none other yoke of certaine appointed Fastes , to be obserued in Common of al menne altogeather .

Therefore S. Augustine saith , Augusti . contra Faustum , Li. 30. Cap. 5. Per Quadragesimam ferè omnes abstinent , non solùm à Carnibus , verùm etiam à quibusdam fructibus , quantò magis quisque vel minùs , seu voluerit , seu potuerit : In the Lente season al menne for the moste parte absteine , not onely from fleashe , but also from certaine fruites , as euery man either wil , or is hable to doo , more or lesse .

Al these thinges beinge true , and certaine , and out of question , howe can M. Hardinge thus assure vs , that the Lenten Faste is the Vndoubted Tradition , and Commaundemente of the Apostles ?

Certainely , whereas they so often tel vs , wée ought to Faste Fourtie Daies , for that Christe him selfe did the like , and gaue vs example so to doo , Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom in Matthae . Homil. 47. Christus non iubet , vt leiunium suum imitemur : Christe commaundeth vs not to folow his Fastinge , Or , to Faste , as he Fasted .

And touchinge the number of the Daies , Eusebius saithe , Quidam putant ieiunare oportere vnum tantùm Diem : Eusebius . Li. 5. Cap 26. alij Duos : alij Plures : alij quadraginta Horas diurnas , noctumasque : Somme thinke , they ought to Faste onely one daie ? Others , two daies : Others . Moe : Some others , Fourtie whole Houres both night , and daie togeather .

But what meante M. Hardinge here to comme in with the difference bitwéene Priestes , and Bishoppes ? Thinketh he , that Priestes , & Bishoppes holde onely by Tradition ? Or is it so horrible an Heresie , as he maketh it , to saie , that by the Scriptures of God , a Bishop , and a Prieste are at One ? Or knoweth he , howe far , and vnto whom he reacheth the name of an Heretique ?

Verily Chrysostome saith , Chrysost in 1. Timoth. Hom. 11. Hieronym . ad Euagrium . Inter Episcopum , & Presbyterum interest fermè nihil : Bitweene a Bishop , and a Prieste in a manner there is no difference . S. Hierome saith , sommewhat in rougher sorte , Audio , quendam in tantam erupisse vecordiam , vt Diaconos Presbyteris , id est , Episcopis anteferret : Cùm Apostolus perspicué doceat , eosdem esse Presbyteros , quos Episcopos . I heare saie , there is One becomme so peeuishe , that he setteth Deacons before Priestes , that is to saie , before Bis hoppes : where as the Apostle plainely teacheth vs , that Priestes , and Bishoppes be al One .

S. Augustine saith , Augustin . In quaestiontb . No. ui & Veter . Testamen . Qu●ol . Ambros . De Dignitate Sacerdot ali . 1. Cor in 7. Iohan. 2. Quid est Episcopus , nisi Primus Presbyter , hoc est , Summus Sacerdos ? What is a Bishop , but the Firste Prieste , that is to soie , the Highest Prieste ? So saithe S. Ambrose , Episcopi , & Presbyteri vna Ordinatio est : Vterque enim Sacerdos est . Sed Episcopus Primus est : There is but one Consecration of Prieste , and Bishop . For bothe of them are Priestes . But the Bishop is the Firste .

Al these , and Other moe Holy Fathers togeather with S. Paule the Apostle , for thus sateinge , by M. Hardinges aduise , muste be holden for Heretiques .

But S. Paule saithe to the Corinthians , Coetera , cùm venero , disponam : For the reste , I wil take order , when I comme . And S. Iohn saithe , I wil not write by paper , and inke : but I truste to be with you mee selfe , and to speake vnto you . Vpon these sewe woordes . M. Hardinge is hable to builde by his Dimi Communion , his Priuate Masse , Traditions . and , what so euer he listeth bisides .

S. Augustine saithe , Augu. in Iohan. Tract. 57. Omnes insipientissimi Haeretici , qui se Christianos vocari volunt , audacias figmentorum suorum , quas maximè exhorret sensus humanus , hac occasione Euangelicae sententiae colorare conantur , vbi Dominus ait , Adhuc multa vobis habeo dicere : Sed ea non potestis portare modò : Al the moste peeuishe Heretiques , that faine would be called Christians , goe aboute to coloure the bolde Vanities of theire Inucntions , whiche the very sense and reason of Man doothe moste abhorre , with the pretense of this saieinge in the Gospel , where as our Lorde saithe thus : I haue many thinges to saie vnto you : but as nowe ye are not hable to beare them .

Euen so saithe Tertullian , Eadem dementia confitentur , Apostolos quidem nihil ignorasse , Tertul. De Praescription . Contra Haereticos . nec diuersa inter se praedicasse . Sed non omnia volunt illos omnibus reuelasse : Sed quaedam Palàm . & Vniuersis : quaedam secretò , & Paucis demandasse : By a like kinde of Madnesse they Confesse , that the Apostles in deede were ignorante of no thinge : nor taught any contrarie Doctrine emonge themselues . But they saie , The Apostles reucied not al thinges to al menne : but shewed certaine thinges openly , and to al : and other certaine thinges secretely , and vnto a fewe .

By sutche right helde sommetime the greate Heretique Arius . For euen so saide he then , Athanasius Contra Arian . Oratione 2. as M. Hardinge saithe nowe , Ex Electis Dei secundum Fidem , Peritis Dei , Rectigradis , oui Sanctum Dei Spiritum acceperunt , ego ita didici : These thinges haue I learned ( not of the Scriptures , but ) of the Chosen of God , according to Faithe : of the skilful in Godly vnderstandinge : of them , that walkte vprightly , and had receiued the Sprite of God : that is to sale , by Tradition .

So Epiphanius saithe , Epiphani . Lib. 2. Haeres. 38. The Heretiques called Caiani , auouched al theire solies , and Heresies , not by the Scriptures , but by Tradition , as they saide , from S. Paule : and tooke vpon them to knowe al those Secrete woordes , that S. Paule had hearde in the Thirde Heauen .

If M. Hardinge maie haue leaue , to handle the same weapons , I doubte not , but he wil soone be hable to proue , that bothe his Holy Breade , & his Holy Water , and , what so euer shal please him els , came by Tradition directly from the Apostles , and from Christe him selfe .

But S. Paule , 1. Cor. 11. when he saide , I wil comme , and take order , he meante not to diuise any other Scripture , or Newe Verities , that they had not knowen before : but onely to appointe them , in what place , at what time , in what order , and with what other Circumstances , the Holy Ministration , and other like Ecclesiastical Offices should be vsed .

As for these fantasies , that M. Hardinge , and his felowes haue imagined , S. Augustine saithe , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 96. cùm Christus ipse tacuerit , quis nostrum dicat , Ista , vel illa sunt ? Aut , si dicere audeat , vnde probat ? Quis enim est tam vanus , aut tam temeratius , qui , cùm dixerit etiam vera , quibas voluerit , quae voluerit , fine vllo Testimonio Diuino , affirmet ea esse , quae tunc Dominus dicere noluit ? For as mutche as Christe him selfe hath not reuesed these thinges , whiche of vs wil saie , they be these , or these ? Or if he so saie , howe can he proue it ? For who is there , either so vaine , or so rashe , who , notwithstanding he speake the Truthe , to whom he listeth , and what he listeth , wil affirme without any Testimonie of the Scriptures , that these be the thinges , that the Lorde then would not Open ?

Sutche thinges they be , Hieronym In Aggaeum . cap. 1. S. Hierome saithe , are cutte of with the Swerde ( that is to saie , with the Woorde ) of God .

M. Hardinge saithe , these expresse Woordes , Persona , Ingenitus , Homousios , are not found in the Scriptures . So saide the Arian Heretiques too , as wel , as he . But what foreeth that ? Epiphan. Lib 3. Hares . 73. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Epiphanius saith , Nomen Substantiae non ponitur nudè , nec in Veteri , nec in Nouo Testamento : Sensus autem eius Nominis vbique est : This very woorde , Forged Scriptures Substantia , is not plainely expressed , neither in the Newe , nor in the Olde Temente : But the sense and meaninge of that Woorde is euerywhere .

So saith Anthanasius , Athanas . Tom. 2. Quòd Decreta Ni●enae Synodi commodis , & piys verbis sint exposita . Tametfi haec voces in Scriptura non reperiuntur , tamen habent earn Sententiam , quam Scripturae volunt : Notwithstanding these woordes be not founde expressed in the Scripture , yet haue they the same sense and meaninge , that the scripture willeth .

Touchinge the Perpetual Virginitie of that Blessed Virgine , the Mother of Christe , whiche M. Hardinge saithe , cannot be proued by any Scriptures , Gennadius writeth thus , Gennadius in Catalogo Illustri . Virorum . Heluidij prauitatem arguens Hieronymus , Libellum Documentis Scripturarum Sufficienter factum aduersus cum edidu : S. Hierome repreuinge the wilful lewdnesse of the Heretique Heluidius ( denieinge the Perpetual Virginitie of Christes Mother ) sette foorth a Booke against him , furnished with sufficiente Testimomonies of the Scriptures . Gennadius saithe , the Perpetual Virginitie of Our Lady is proued sufficiently by the Scriptures : M. Hardinge , onely to mainteine his quarrel , saith , It cannot be proued by any Scriptures : but standeth onely by Tradition .

S. Hierome him selfe in so vaine a contention , moued by an Heretique , thought it sufficient to answeare thus : Hieronym . Contra Heluidium . Mariam nupsisse post partum non credimus : quia non legimus : Wee beleeue not , that Marie was Married againe after her Childebearinge : bicause wee reade it not .

Here M. Hardinge thinketh to oppresse vs with the Olde Heretiques Ordinarie question : Howe knowe you , saith he , that the Scriptures be the Scriptures ? How knowe you , that the Gospel of Thomas , Bartholomewe , and Nicodeme are no Scriptures ? Thus they laboure to pulle al credite from the Woorde of God , and sende vs onely to theire Traditions . Of God , and his Woorde , they would euermore haue vs to stande in doubte : but of the Pope , and his Woorde , they say , in any wise wée male not doubte . Hosius , De expresso Verbo Dei . Hosius a special Proctoure of that side saithe , Quod Ecclesia docet , id est Expressum Verbum Dei : What so euer the Churche teacheth , ( he meaneth the Churche of Rome ) that is the very Expresse Woorde of God .

A man might wel demaunde the like question of M. Hardinge : How know you , that the Sonne is the Sonne ? Or that the Moene is the Moene ? Or howe knowe you , that the Churche is the Churche ? Or that the Congregation of the Wicked is not the Churche ?

Sutche idle questions the Olde Heretiques the Manichées demaunded of S. augustine . August . Contra Paustum , Lib. 32. Cap. 21. But S. Augustine answeared them , Si quaeratis à nobis , vnde nos sciamus , Apostolorum esse istas literas , breuiter vobis respondemus , Inde nos scire , vnde & vos scitis , illas literas esse Manichaei : If you demaunde of vs , howe wee knowe that these be the Apostles writinges , wee make you this shorte answeare , Euen so wee knowe , that Oure writinges are of the Apostles , as you knowe , that your writinges are of the Heretique Manichee .

But for further answeare , I recken , M. Hardinge cannot be ignorant , that the Gospel of Thomas , Bartholomewe , Nicodeme , and sutche others , were neuer written by them , whoes names they beare : but were wickedly , and falsely countrefeited vnder their names , by sundrie Heretiques .

S. Ambrose saithe , Euseb. Li. 3. ca. 25 Ambro. in Lucan , in Prooemio . Erant Pseudopropherae , &c. Erat autem populi gratia discernere Spiritus : vt cogno scerer , quos referre deberet in numerum Propherarum : quos autem , quasi bonus Nummularius , reprobare . Sic & nunc in Nouo Testamento multi Euangelia scribere conati sunt : quae boni Nummularij non probauerunt : There were False Prophetes , &c. But the people had a Grace geeuen them , to discerne Sprites , and to iudge , whom thei should receiue into the number of the Prophetes : and whom , as skilful exchangers , Forged Scriptures they shoulde refuse . Euen so nowe in the time of the Newe Testamente , Many haue taken in hande to Write Gospels : But the skilful exchangers , and triers of Coines haue not allowed them .

So saithe S. Augustine : Augusti . contra Faustum , Lib. 22. Cap. 80. Manichaei legunt Scripturas Apocryphas , nescio à quibus Sutoribus Fabularum , sub nomine Apostolorum scriptas : The Manichees reade Secrete Hidden Scriptures , written , I knowe not by what Cobblers of Fables , vnder the name of the Apostles .

So saithe Eusebius of the Gospel countrefeited vnder the name of S. Peter : Nos Petrum , Euseb. li. 6 ca. 12. & reliquos Apostolos , sicut Christum recipimus . Sed Pseudepigrapha reijcimus : Veluti gnari eorum sensus , & sententiae : Scientes , quòd talia non recipimus tradita ab Apostolis : Wee receiue Peter , and the reste of the Apostles , as wee woulde receiue Christe him selfe . But Countrefeite Writinges ( vnder theire names ) wee refuse vttersy : as hauinge vnderstandinge of their sense , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and meaninge : knowinge wel , that wee haue receiued no sutche thinges deliuered by the Apostles .

Thus had the Churche of God the Sprite of Wisedome , whereby to discerne the True Scriptures from the False .

Yet male wée not geather hereof , that the Authoritie of the Churche is ouer , and aboue the Scriptures . Dist. 4. In istis . S. Augustine saith , In istis temporalibus Legibus , quamuis de illis homines iudicent , cùm eas instituunt , tamen cùm fuerint institutae , & firmatae , non licebit ludici , de illis iudicare , sed secundum eas : In these temporal , or Worldly Iawes , although menne be Iudges ouer them , while they be a making , yet after the same Lawes be once made , and established , it is no senger lawful for the Iudge to Iudge of them : Onely it is lawful , to Iudge by them .

Likewise againe he saithe , August . Confess . Lib. 13. Cap. 23. Spirituales , siue qui praesunt , siue qui obtemperant , Spiritualiter iudicant : non de cognitionibus Spiritualibus , quae lucent in Firmamento ( id est , de Scripturis ) : Non enim oportet de tam sublimi Authoritate iudicare , &c. Homo enim , licet Spiritualis , factor ramen Legis esse debet , non Iudex . De illis dicitur Iudicare , in quibus potestatem habet corrigendi : Menne Spiritual , whether thei ruse , or be ruled , Iudge accordinge to the Sprite . But they Iudge not of the Spiritual knowledge , that shineth in the Firmamente ( that is to saie , of the Scriptures ) : For it is not lawful for any man to be Iudge ouer so high Authoritie . For be the man never so mutche Spiritual , yet muste he be a Dooer , and not a Iudge of the Lawe . There a Man is saide to be a Iudge , where he hath Power , and Authoritie to correcte .

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision . 1.

Moreouer wee allowe the Sacramentes of the Churche , that is to saie , certaine Holy Signes , & Ceremonies , whiche Christe woulde wee shoulde vse , that by them he might sette before our eies the Mysteries of our Saluation , and might more strongely confirme the Faithe , whiche wee haue in his Bloude , and might seale his Grace in our hartes . And these Sacramentes , togeather with Tertullian , Origen , Ambrose , Augustine , Hierome , Chrysostome , Basile , Dionysius , & other Catholique Fathers . wee doe calle Figures , Signes , Markes , Badges , Printes , Copies , Fourmes , Seales , Signettes , Similitudes , Paternes , Representations , Remembraunces , and Memories . And wee make no doubt , togeather with the same Doctours to saie , that these bee certaine Visible woordes , Seales of Righteousnes , and Tokens of Grace .

M. Hardinge .

With what face , saie ye , that ye allowe the Sacramentes of the Churche ? * * Vntruthe . For the thinges , that weehaue leafte , were not the Sacram. of the Churche . Haue ye not abandot ned almoste al the Sacramentes of the Churche ? Retaine ye any mo by name of the Sacramentes then two , Baptisme , and your Supper of the Lorde ? Of whiche the one , after that Doctrine , as it is by you taught , and ministred , auaileth nothinge but to your further condemnation .

The sounde , and true Doctrine , whiche the Catholike Churche holdeth , and beleueth touching this point , is this : The sounde and true Doctrine of the Sacramentes . There be seuen Sacramentes , in which , vnder coouer of visible thinges , the * * Vntruthe . As shal appeare . Power of God worketh mans helth . They be these : Baptisme , Confirmation , the Sacrament of the aulter , Penaunce , extreme Vnction , Order , Wedlocke . And these so we cal Sacramentes , as neuertheles we acknowledge the name of Sacrament may be extended to many other thinges . That it be knowen what a Sacrament is , this woorde Sacrament signifieth sommetime a holy thinge , Seuen Samentes . sometime the signe of a holy thinge instituted by God . Sacramente what it signifieth . As it is taken for a signe only , so is it found generally , not only in the Newe Lawe , but also in the Olde Lawe . But in the Newe Lawe these signes after a Peculiar , and Special manner be called Sacramentes , whiche do not only signifie a holy thinge , but also do sanctifie and make holy those to whom thei be adhibited , being such as by institution of Christe conteine grace in them , and Power to sanctifie . ● Vntruthe . For they are onely certaine late Scholastical Sophisters . Whereof a Sacrament is by the best learned diuines defined to be a visible signe of inuisible grace , Definition of a Sacrament . so as it beare the image of it , * and be cause of the same . For the plaine understanding of this Definition , how a Sacrament beareth the forme , signe , or image of inuisible grace , it appeareth euidently in Baptisme , where washinge of the body sheweth the clensinge of the sowle . Also in the Sacramente of the Aulter , * * Vntruthe , Vaine , and childishe . For no Learned Father euer saide so . where the formes of Breade and Wine outwardly represent the spiritual nourishing of the soule . The like appeareth in other Sacramentes .

Neither is it a New , and straung Doctrine to say , that the Sacramentes of the Gospel conteine grace in them , for the Fathers teache the same not seldom . Chrysostome expounding the Mysterie of the Poole called Bethesda in Hebrewe , that was in Ierusalem , saith , that sicke folke were healed at the mouing of the water , to the intent men might be brought to vnderstande the vertue of Baptisme . For then was it comming to passe ( saith he ) that Baptisme shoulde be ful of power and grace . Cap. 5. S. Ambrose in his booke de Sacramentis speaking of Baptisme , saith it is not euery water that healeth , but that water healeth , whiche hath the Grace of Christe . Cyrillus vpon the foresaide Chapter of S. Iohn saith , that in Baptisme it is not Water simply , that worketh , but when as it hathe receiued the grace of the Holy Ghoste . Sermoné Dominicae intra octauas Epiphaeniae . S. Augustine in a Sermon saith , the Water in Baptisme is enriched with a more gifte in maner , then was the Virgine Mary . For the ( saith he ) deserued Chastitie to her selfe , this hath geuen to vs sanctifications : She deserued that she sinned not , this that it might purge sinnes . It is saide vniuersally by S. Cyprian of al the Sacramentes , that the fatte of Gods anointinge powereth fulnes of grace into the ministerial sanctifications , In sermone de Baptismo Christi . whereby he meaneth the Sacramentes . Yet we meane , that they conteine grace , and power to sanctifie , after suche maner of speakinge , as we saie of Potions and drinkes prepared for sicke Persons , that thei conteine health , to the workinge whereof they be effectual .

And as it is saide of the Sacramentes , that thei conteine grace , so is it likewise saide , that through theire vertue , whiche thei haue by Gods institution , thei do not only signifie ( as by these Defenders Doctrine that semeth to be theire special office ) but also with signification * * Vntruthe . See the Answeare . worke and cause , as an instrumental cause , the effecte of that , whiche they signifie .

After whiche maner , Power gede to Sacramentes to worke that thei signifie by Gods ordinance . God hath geuen to the Sacramentes of the Newe Testamente , that thei worke the thinge signified , through vertue geuen them by Gods ordinance , to special effectes of grace .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Of the number of the Sacramentes , wée shal haue more conueniente time to speake hereafter . There , gentle Reader , I trust , thou shalt sée M. Hardinges great question easily answeared , with what face wée saye , wée allowe the Sacramentes of the Churche . In the meane season it maie please thée , to weigh these woordes of Cardinal Bessarion , the Bishop of Tusculum , one of M. Hardinges especial Catholique Doctours : Bessarion , De Sacramen . Eucharistiae . Haec Duo Sola Sacramenta in Euangelijs manifestè tradita legimus : These onely two Sacramentes wee reade to be deliuered vs plainely in the Gospel . Here Bessarion nameth , Baptisme . not Seuen Sacramentes , as M. Harding dooth , but onely Two . Certainely wée refuse no Sacramente , that euer was either ordeined by Christe , or vsed and practised by the Apostles .

Your Lordes Supper , saithe M. Hardinge , auaileth you nothing , but to your further Condemnation . So must it néedes be , bicause M. Harding saith , it shal so be . These Tragical terrours are fit onely to frale children : In the Date of the Lorde eche mannes woorke shal appeare . The finalest of our people vnderstandeth the Nature , & Meaning of the Holy Mysterie of Our Lordes Supper : & therfore they receiue the same togeather to theire greate consolation . But in Your Lady Masse the simple people vnderstandeth nothing , heareth nothing , & , sauing a fewe vnseemely Ceremonies , seeth nothing . And therfore they so seldome Communicate , & that onely of custome , without any zele , or comforte of conscience , as hauinge no sense , or feeling in al these dooinges . Origen . in Luc● Homil. 5. Origen saith , Nisi Circuncisionis reddatur ratio , nutus est , & Opus mutum . Pascha , & aliae Solenuitates nutus magis sunt , quàm Veritas , vsque hodiè Populus Israel surdus , & mutus est : Onlesse the reasons , or causes of Circumcision be opened , Circumcision is but a gesture , and a doumbe kinde of woorke . The Easter Feaste , and other like Solemnities , are rather Ceremonies , then the Truthe it selfe . Euen stil vntil this daie , Ambros . in 1. Cor. 11. the people of Israel is deafe , and doumbe . S. Ambrose saithe , Indignus est Domino , qui aliter Mysterium celebrat , quàm à Christo traditum est . Non enim potest deuotus esse qui aliter praesumit , quàm datum est ab Authore : He is vnwoorthy of the Lorde , that Ministreth this Sacramente otherwise , then Christe deliuered it . For he cannot be deuoute , that presumeth to vse it otherwise , then it was firste deliuered from Christe the Authoure . These wordes séeme sommewhat to touche M. Hardinge , and his Companie . But here he is contented , to allowe vs the very Sacramente , and true vse of Baptisme , and that vailable , and of force for the Remission of Sinnes . Whereby vnaduisedly , and vnwares he confesseth , that wee haue the very True Catholique Churche of God . For S. Augustine saithe truely , Baptismus Ecclesiae potest esse extra Ecclesiam : De Con. Dist. 4 Ecclesia . munus autem Beatae vitae non nisi intra Ecclesiam inuenitur : The Baptisme of the Churche maie be without the Churche : but the gifte of Blessed life is not founde , but within the Churche . But why he alloweth vs this Sacramente , rather then the other , it were a harde mater to discusse . Neither may we iustly require reason of him that speaketh so mutche without reason .

Perhaps he wil sate , Baptisme is but a light Sacramente , & maie be ministred by any Laie Personne , euen by an olde Woman , or by a gyrle , so that shée speake Latine , and vnderstande not , what shée saie . For otherwise , I trowe , her dooinge maie not stande for good . Certainely , whereas M. Hardinge speaketh of the dewe Fourme of Woordes , according to Christes Institution , his owne Doctours telle vs , De Conse . Dist. 4. Si non . and auouche it for greate Truthe , that if the Prieste saie thus , Ego te Baptizo in nomine Patris , & Filij , & Spiritus Sancti , & Diaboli : That is , I. Baptize thee in the name of the Father , De Conse . Dist. 4. Retulerunt . and of the Sonne , and of the Holy Ghoste , and of the Diuel : Or if he saie thus , as one ignorante Prieste sommetime saide , Ego te Baptizo in nomine Patria , & Filia , & Spirita Sancta , yet the Fourme of Baptisme is very good .

But one greate faulte M. Hardinge findeth in our dooinges , for that wée haue leafte out a greate many Holie rites , his Chrisme , his Oile , his Salte , his Spittle , and sutche other like thinges : and for that wée minister this Sacramente plainely , & simply , as Christe commaunded . This obiection beinge of no greater weight , may easily discharge it selfe , & therefore maie passe wel without farther answeare .

M. Hardinge saithe , there be Seuen Sacramentes , whiche , as he saithe , doo not onely signifie a Holy thinge , but also doo Sanctifie , and make holy those , to whom they be adhibited , being sutche as by Institution of Christe conteine Grace in them , and power to sanctifie . Here , to leaus the reste , it might be demaunded , howe can Matrimonie Sanctifie a Man , & make him Holy : To Conteine Grace . or by what Institution of Christe conteineth it Grace in it selfe , and Power to Sanctific ? Or if it cannot Sanctifie , nor haue sutche Grace , howe then can it be called a Sacramente ?

I graunt , the Ancient Learned Fathers , entreating of the Sacramentes , haue often vsed vehement , Concil Nicen. and greate woordes . It is written in the Councel of Nice , Vides Aquam ? Considera Vim Diuinam , quae in Aquis Latet . Puta , Aquam esse plenam Ignis Diuini . Seest thou the Water ? Consider the diuine Power that lieth Hidde in the Water , Imagin , that the Water is ful of Heauenly Fiere . So S. Ambrose , Spiritus Sanctus descendit , Ambros . De Samen . Li. 1. Cap. 5. Tertul. De Batismo . & Aquam consecrat . Adest Praesentia Trinitatis : The Holy Ghoste commeth downe , and haloweth the Water . There is the Presence of the Trinitie . So saith Tertullian , In Baptismo tingimur Passione Christi : In Baptisme wee are wasshed with the Passion of Christe . So saith Chrysostome , as M. Hardinge hath here alleged him , Baptisme is ful of Power , and Grace : So saith S. Cyprian : so saie others .

Al these , and other like vehemente speaches M. Harding mitigateth , and qualifieth in this wise : Wee meane , saith he , that Sacramentes conteine Grace , after sutche manner of speakinge , as wee saie , Potions , and drinkes conteine healthe . That is to saie , Sacramentes verily , and in déede conteine not the Grace of God . For drinkes , and Potions verily , 4. Reg. 4. and in déede conteine not the health of the Patiente . In this manner of speache the Children of the Prophetes saide to Elizaeus the Prophete , Mors in olla , Vir Dei : Prou. 18. Iohan. 5. O thou man of God , Death is in the Potte . So Salomon saithe , Death , and Life are in the handes of the tongue . So Christe saithe vnto the Phariseis , Searche the Scritures : for in them you thinke to haue euerlastinge Life . Therefore one M. Hardinges Schoole Doctous saithe , Iohan. De Parisijs , De Potestate Regia , Cap. 26. In Sacramentis Ecclesiae , specialis Virtus Passionis Christi continetur , sicut Virtus agentis in instrumento : The special Grace of the Passion of Christe is conteined in the Sacramentes of the Churche , as the Power of the woorkes is conteined in the instrumente , wherewith he woorketh .

But in déede , it is the Soule of man , and not the Creature of Breade , or Water , that receiueth the Grace of God . Wee haue néede of Goddes Grace : These corruptible elementes néede it not . Without Faith of our Parte Sacramentes be not onely vnprofitable to vs , Chryso . in Matthae . Operis Imperfe . Homil. 43. but also hurtful . S. Chrysostame saith , Vbi est Virtus Euangelij ? In Figuris literarum , an in intellectu sensuum ? Where is the Power of the Gospel ? In the Fourmes of the letters , or els in the vnderstandinge of the meaninge ?

Likewise Bonauentura saithe , Bonauen in 4. Sen. dist. 1. Qu. 3. Nullo modo dicendum est , quòd Gratia continetur in ipsis Sacramentis essentialiter , tanquam Aqua in Vase , vel Medicina in Pyxide . Imò hoc intelligere est erroneum . Sed dicuntur continere Gratiam , quia eam signicant : Wee maye not in any wise saié , that the Grace of God is conteined substantially , and verily in the Sacramentes , as Water is conteined in the Vessel , or a Medicine in the Boxe . For so to saie , it were enoneous . But wee saie , the Sacramentes conteine the Grace of God : Eodem loco . bicause thei signifie the Grace of God . Againe he saith , Gratia est in anima , non in Signis visibilibus : The Grace of God is , not in the visible Signes , but in the Soule . And againe he saithe , Ad illud , quod obijcitur , quòd remissio Peceatorum Latet in Baptismo , dicendum est , quòd hoc intelligiturede latentia Signati in Signo : quod quidem habet vlteriorem rationem , quàm rationem Significandi : non tamen essentialiter continendi in se : sed quia ipsum , quod Signat , continetur in anima : To the Obiection , that is made , that the Romission of Sinnes is Hidde in Baptisme , wee muste answeare thus , that it must be taken of the thinge Signified hidde in the Signe . Whiche thinge neuerthelesse hath a farther meaninge , then to Signifie : yet not to conteine ( the Remission of Sinnes ) verily , and Substantially in it selfe : but that the Grace , that is Signified thereby , is conteined in the Soule .

The Mystical signification , Fourmes , and Accidentes . that M. Harding hath imagined , of his Shewes , and Accidentes , that the Fourmes of Breade , and Wine outwardely represente the Spiritual nourishinge of the Soule , is vaine , and fantastical , without the witnesse of any Anciente Doctour , or Father , confirmed onely by the Authoritie of him selfe . For what manner of féedinge is there is these Accidentes , and Holy Fourmes ? Or how can that thinge , that féedeth not the Body , represente vnto vs the Spiritual féedinge of the Soule ?

The mater is plaine yenough of it selfe , and néedeth no cauil . The Signification , and Substance of the Sacrament is to shewe vs , how wee are fedde with the Body of Christe : that is , that like as Material Breade feedeth our Body , so the Body of Christe nailed on the Crosse , embraced , and eaten by Faithe , feedeth the Soule . The like Representation is also made in the Sacramente of Baptisme : that as our Body is wasshed cleane withe Water , so our Soule is wasshed cleane with Christes Bloude . Augustin . Epist. 23. Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Nisi Sacramenta similitudinem quandam earum rerum , quarum sacramenta sunt , haberent , omninò Sacramenta non essent : Yf Sacramentes had not a certaine likenesse , and representation of the thinges , wherof they be Sacramentes , then in deede they were no Sacramentes . This Representation Rabanus Maurus expoundeth thus , Rabanus Li. 2. Cap. 31. Quia Panis Corpora confirmat , ideò ille congruenter Corpus Christi nuncupatur : Et quia vinum Sanguinem operatur in Carne , ideò refertur ad Sanguinem : Bicause ( not the Accidentes , or Fourmes of Breade , but ) Breade it selfe confirmeth the Body , therefore it is conueniently called the Body of Christe : And bicause Wine woorketh bloude in the fleashe , therefore it hath relation vnto the Bloude .

So likewise saithe Druthmarus , Druthmarus in Matthae . ca. 26. Vinum laetificat , & Sanguinem auget : & ideò non inconuenienter Sanguis Christi per hoc figuratur : ( not the Accidentes or Fourmes of Wine , but ) Wine it selfe reioiceth the harte , and increaseth bloude : And therefore the Bloude of Christe conueniently is thereby signified .

M. Hardinge , for that he cannot vtterly denie it , the mater beinge so plaine , is therefore contented to graunte , that the Sacrament is the Figure of Christes Body . But to helpe out , and to shifte the mater , he hath diuised sutche a strange kinde of Figure , as seldome hathe benne hearde before . Notwithstandinge the Holy Learned Fathers speake plainely , and simply , and vse no kinde of sutche Gloses . Hierony . aduersus Ruffinum . S. Hierome saithe , Ad Tropicam intelligentiam sermo referatur . Quando dico , Tropicam , docco verum non esse , quod dicitur , sed allegoriae nubilo figuratum : Let that sateinge be expounded by a Figure . When I saie , a Figure , I saie , the thing that is spoken , is not true in deede , but Figured vnder the clowde of an Allegorie . Likewise Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in Genesin , Homi. 35. Audisti , fuisse Figuram . Ne ergo mirare , neque omnia require in typo . Neque enim typus esset , si omnia , quae Veritati accidunt , haberentur : Ye haue hearde , that it was a Figure . Therefore maiueise not : and beinge a Figure , require not al thinges to agree . Augustin . De Doctrinae Christiana , li. 3. ca. 5. For otherwise it were no Figure . So likewise S. Augustine saithe , in Principio cauendum est , ne Figuratam locutionem ad literam accipias . Ad hoc enim pertinet , quod ait Apostolus , Litera occidit . Cùm enim Figuratè dictum sic accipitur , tanquam proriè dictum sit , Carnaliter sapitur : neque ulla mors animae congruentiùs appellatur : Firste of al thou muste take heede , that thou take not a Figuratiue Speache accordinge to the Letter . For that is it , whereof S. Paule saithe , The Letter Killeth . For , when the thinge , that is spoken vnder a Figure , is so taken , as if it were plainely spoken , there is a Fleashly vnderstandinge . Neither is there any thinge , that maie better be called the deathe of the Soule . Articulo . 12. Al this , and mutche more to like purpose , thou maiste finde in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge .

An other fantasie M. Hardinge hathe , that the Sacramentes of the Newe Lawe woorke the thinge it selfe , Sàcram . Olde . Newe . that they signifie , through Vertue , as he saith , geuen vnto them by Goddes ordinance , to special effectes of Grace . This , as I saide , is but a fantasie . For the Sacramentes of the Olde Lawe , 1. Corin. 10. and of the Newe , in Truthe , and Substance are al one . S. Paule saithe , Omnes eundem cibum Comederunt : Hilari . in Psalnum 67. The Fathers in the Olde Lawe , did al eate the same meare , that is to saie , the same Christe , that wée eate . S. Hilarie saithe , Sub nube fuerunt , & Christo , aquam Petra praebente , Leo De Natiuita Domini , Sermone . 3. potati sunt : They were vnder the Clowde , and were drenched with Christe , the Rocke geeuinge them water . Likewise saithe Leo : Mysteria pro temporum ratione variata sunt : quum Fides , qua viuimus , nulla fuerit aetate diuersa : The Sacramentes are astered accordinge to the diuersitie of the times . But the Faithe , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta. 26. whereby wee liue , in al ages was euer one . Likewise S. Augustine , Sacramenta illa fuerunt , in Signis diuersa : in rebus , quae significabantur , paria : These thinges were Sacramentes , in the outwarde tokens , diuerse : but in the thinges tokened , al one with ours .

M. Hardinge wil replie : Augustin . in Psalm . 73. S. Augustine saithe , Sacramenta Noui Testamenti dant Salutem : The Sacramentes of the New Testament geeue Saluation . But who can better expounde S. Augustines meaninge , then S. Augustine him selfe ? He addeth immediately : Cùm ergo iam teneas promissa , quid quaeris promittentia Saluatorem ? Hoc dico , teneas promissa : non quòd iam acceperimus Viram aeternam , Sed quòdiam Christus Venerit , qui per Prophetas praenuntiabatur : Wherefore , seeinge thou haste the Promisses ( of the comminge of Christe ) already perfourmed , what seekest thou the thinges , that Promised the Saueoure ? I saie , Thou haste the Promisses already perfourmed : not for that wee haue alreadie receiued euerlastinge life , but for that Christe is alreadie comme , that was promised by the Prophetes . Therefore , when S. Augustine saithe , Our Sacramentes geue Saluation , his meaninge is this , Our Sacramentes teache vs , Augustin contra Faustum , Li. 19. Ca. 14. that Saluation is already comme into the World . Thus S. Augustine saithe in an other place : Illa fuerunt Promissiones rerum complendarum : haec sunt indicia completarum : The Sacramentes of the Olde Lawe were Promisses of sutche thinges , as should afterv vard be accomplisshed : Our Sacramentes of the Newe Lawe are takens , that the same Promisses be already accomplisshed . Thus the Holy Fathers saie , The Sacramentes of the Newe Lawe worke Saluation : bicause they teache vs , that our Saluation is already wrought . So Bonauentura saithe of the Sacramentes of the Olde Testamente , Bonauentura . in 4. Senten . dis. 1. In Procemio . Mundare dicebantur : id est , mundatum ostendebant : They were saide to make a man cleane , bicause they shewed , or signified , that a man was made cleane .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 1.

And wee doo expressely pronounce , that in the Lordes Supper there is Truely geuen vnto the Beleuinge the Body and Bloud of our Lorde , the Fleashe of the Sonne of God , whiche quickeneth our Soules , the Meate that commeth from aboue , the foode of Immortalitie , or Grace , Truth , & Life : And the same Supper to be the communton of the Body , and Bloud of Christe : by the partaking whereof wee be reuiued , streghtened , and fedde vnto Immortalitie : and whereby wee are Ioined , Vnited , & Incorporate vnto Christe , that wee maie abide in him , and he in vs .

M. Hardinge .

What ye proncunce of this high Sacrament , the wise and careful tenderers of their soules wil be right ware thereof . Of you and suche as ye be , because your Doctrine is * * In respect of this Corner , the Churche of Rome were a simple corner . but of a corner of the worlde in respect of the Vniuersal Churche , Matt. 24. hathe geuen vs a watche woorde , Nolite credere , The Sacramentaries Lordes supper . beleeue them not . In your the Lordes supper , celebrated by the Ministers of your owne creation , * * Vntruthes , ioined with Heathenishe blasphemies . there is not geeuen the Body and Bloud of our Lorde , neither to the beleuing , nor to the vnbeleuinge . For at the celebration of your schismatical supper , no * consecration being done , * nor Faithe of the Churche , * not right intention had , * nor Christes institution obserued , what deliuer ye to your communicantes , but * a peece of Breade , and a * sippe of Wine ? Neither is it * your wil it be more or better . At the supper of Our Lorde ministred in the Catholike Churche by Priestes rightly consecrated , Iudas receiued the true body of Christe , nolesse then th apostles . Math. 26. Chrysost. Homil. de Proditione Iudae . Augustin . in Psal. 10. and as it hath ben accustomed in Christes Churche , there is the true and whole Body of our Lorde and saueour geeuen and receiued , be the receiuers beleuinge , or * * Vnttuthe , Reade tile Answeare . not beleuinge . For when Christe gaue this Sacrament to his Disciples at his last supper , after that he had consecrated the same , saieing , take ye , eate ye , this is my Body : Iudas the traitour , as the * Fathers teache , receiued his true Body nolesse then Peter , Andrewe , Iohn , or Iames did : though they to their saluation , he to his damnation .

Now it is to be noted , how this Defender in this long sentence affecteth a certaine holy ( as it were ) and solemne eloquence , and vseth a religious amplification of Woordes , to set foorth the sacrament , as though he had a reuerent and a godly opinion of it : whereas in dede he taketh it * * Vntruthe . For we cal the Signe the Signe : and the Truthe , the Truthe . but for a poore signe or token , as their Doctoure Zuinglius dothe . But suche is their crafte , to purchase them credite among the people . Thus offer they to the vnlearned their faire cuppes ful of venym , anointinge the brimmes with Honye of sweete and Holy woordes , the rather to poison them . Suche complainte maketh the graue Father S. Hilary againste the Arians of his time , Ingerunt nobis primum nomina Veritaùs , De trinit. Li. 6. vt virus falsitatis introeat . Bonum in Ore est , vt de corde malum subeat : Firste ( saithe he ) they thrust me foorthe woordes of truthe , that the venym of falsehed mate enter in . Good is in their mouthe , that out from the harte maie euil proceede . And among al these woordes ( hee meaneth the Arians confession of their faithe ) I heare no where by them saide , Deum dei filium : God the sonne of God . Right so among al these faire woordes concerning the Sacramente , * * O merueilous horrible Heresi : what Doctour , or Father euer named your Real Presence● we heare neuer a whit saide of the real presence of Christes Body . Contra Ariomanitas , Haeresi . 69. De gratia Christi , contra Pelagium & Coelest . li. 1. Cap. 32. Matth. 13. Epiphanius noteth the like crafte in Arius , and so doth S. Augustine in the Pelagians . Nestorius likewise spake honorably in many places of Christe and his Mother . But now here would he cal her 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , the Mother of God . The Iewes also , as we finde in the Gospell , called our sauiour Iesus the Carpenters sonne , confessed Mary to be his Mother , Iames , Ioseph , Simon , and Iude , his brothers , and that his sisters were among them ( by whom his Kinnes folke are to be vnderstanded ) but the sonne of God they would not acknowledge him , nor in that degree honour him . Better then to those Iewes can I not compare these Defenders , who speake honorably of our Lordes Body and Bloud in their supper : * * Neither did any Doctour or Father Euer saie , that Christs Body is Really , and Verily in the Sacraments . but that his Body is really , that it is verely in the Sacrament of the aulter , that wil not the Deuill who raigneth in their hartes , suffer theire mouthes to vtter .

The B. of Sarisburie .

M. Hardinge telleth vs , wée deliuer vnto the Faitheful nothing els , but a péece of Breade , and a slppe of Wine : that wée haue neither Intention , nor Consecration : that our faire Cuppes be ful of Venime : That our Supper is Schismatical : that our Eloquence is Hypocritical : that our Doctrine is Heretical : that wée are like to the Pelagians , to the Nestorians , to the Arians , and to the lewes : and that the Diuel raigneth in our hartes . If the Truthe of God were euermore ioined with vaine speache , then might M. Hardinge be hable easily to winne the price . He saithe , Our Doctrine is but in a Corner of the worlde , and that therefore Christe hathe geuen this watche woorde of vs , Beleeue them not . How be it , if he would aduisedly consider the mater , and looke wel about him , he shoulde finde , that so many Kingdomes , and Countries , and Commonweales , as this day professe the Gospel of Christe , would make a good large Corner in the Churche of God . Certainely in respecte thereof , Rome it selfe were a very poore Corner .

Vnto whom Christe specially pointed , 2. Thessalon . ● when he saide these woordes , Beleeue them not , bicause it is a Prophesie , it is harde to iudge . But it is very likely , he meante Antichriste , that Man of Sinne , the Childe of destruction , that auanceth him selfe aboue al that is called God . Consecration . Verily Chrysostome thereof saithe thus : Non dico , Chrysost. in Mat. Homil. 49. si dixerint vobis , Ecce in Haereticis Ecclesijs illis , vel in illis apparuit Christus : sed etiam si in ipsis veris Ecclesijs , quae Dei sunt , id est , domus vestrae , dixerint vobis , Christum apparuisse , nolite eis credere dicentibus ista de me : quia non est digna Diuinitatis meae notitla haec : Ostendens per haec , quomodò ex ipsis Ecclesijs veris frequenter exeunt Seductores . Proptereà nec ipsis omninò credendum est , nisi ea dicant , vel faciant , quae conuenientia sint Scripturis : I saie not , if they tel you , Behold Christe hathe appeared in these , or these Churches of Heretiques : But if they shal saie vnto you , that Christe bathe appeared in the very true Churches , that are of God , that is to saie , that are your houses , Beleeue them not , if they saie thus of me : for this is no woorthy knowledge of my Diuinitie : By these he sheweth , how that out of the very true Churches oftentimes come foorthe deceiuers . Therefore wee maie not beleue no not them , onlesse they speake , or doo those thinges , that are agreeable to the Scriptures .

Verily , how so euer M. Hardinge wil shifte this mater , the plaine woordes séeme rather to touche him , and his companie , then either Luther , or Zuinglius , or any other . For they can pointe with theire fingers , and saie , Here is Christe , and There is Christe . Behold , In this Pyre are three Christes : in that fiue : in that seuen : in that moe . Therefore it is likely , that Christe géeueth vs this special watche woorde of them , and sutche others , Beleeue them not .

Here M. Hardinge maketh mutche adoo about Consecration : and yet are not his Felowes wel agreed , what to make of theire owne Consecration . Gabriel saithe , Gabriel Biel. Lectio . 36. Chritus potuit sine verbo tanquam verus Deus , Substantiam Panis , & Vini Consecrare : Vel , potuit verba quaedam secretò proferre , & per illa Consecrare : Vel , per haec Verba , Hoc est Corpus meum , Consecrare potuit : Vel , potuit priùs Consecrare , & posteà distribuere : Vel , primùm distribuere , & posteà Consecrare . Quid autem horum fecerit , ex Sacris Scripturis non constat : Christe , as beinge very God , might Consecrate the Substance of Breade and Wine without woorde : Or els , he might speake certaine wordes in secrete , and by them Consecrate : Or els , he might Consecrate by these woordes , This is my Body : Or els , he might firste Consecrate , and after deliuer : Or els , firste deliuer , and after Consecrate . But whiche of al these he did in deede , Bessarion de Sacramen . Eucharistia . Catharinus De Consecratione . Durandus Li. 4. De Sexta parte Canonis . Petrus de Alliaco , in . 4. Senten . quae . 5. Antididagma . Bonauentura in 4 Senten . dist. 8. quae. 2. by the Holy Scriptures it appeareth not . Cardinal Bessarion saithe , that in the Latine Churche Consecration is wrought by the woordes of Christe : in the Gréeke Churche by other Praiers , that folowe afterwarde . Catharinus intreatinge pourposely hereof , saithe , Christe Consecrated not with the same wordes , that are nowe vsed in the Masse , This is my Body . Durandus saithe , Christe Consecrated by his Diuine power , and after Consecration saide , This is my Body . Petrus Alliacensis yeldeth this reason hereof , Quia , nisi antè fuisset Corpus Christi , Christus non verè dixisset , Hoc est Corpus meum : If it had not benne Christes Body before , Christe coulde not haue said truely , This is my Body . It is concluded in a Booke called Antididagma . lately set foorth by the Chapter of Colaine . that the bare woordes of Christes Institution , without the woordes of the Canon of the Masse , are not sufficient to woorke Consecration . Bonauentura saithe , To haue the true Fourme of Consecration , wée muste séeke , not to the Gospel of Christe , but to the Canon . Howe be it , thereof groweth a greate inconuenience , that Christe , and his Apostles , for that they had not the woordes of the Canon , had therefore no Consecration . Againe Bonauentura saithe , that these woordes , Noui , & Aeterni Testamenti , are not of the substance of Consecration : but are vsed onely as a fourniture . Scotus in . 4. Senten . dis. 8. quae. 2. Iohannes Scotus saithe , Quod ergo est consilium ? Dico , quòd Sacerdos intendens facere , quod facit Ecclesia , legens distinctè verba Canonis , à Principio vsque ad finem , verè consicit : nec est tutum alicui , reputare se valde peritum in scienua sua , & dicere , volo uti praecisè istis verbis pro Consecratione : The mater beinge so doubteful , what then is your Counsel ? I saie , that the Prieste intendinge to doo , what so euer the Churche doothe , and readinge the woordes of the Canon distinctly , and plainely , from the beginninge to the ende , doothe verily Consecrate . Neither is it good for a man to recken him selfe very skilful in his knowledge , and to saie , I wil vse precisely these , or these woordes to woorke Consecration . Where also these woordes are specially noted in the Margine , Nota , quòd de hae materia , Doctor nihil hîc asserit , sed probabiliter aliquid dicens , sub dubio relinquit : Here marke , that touching this mater ( of Consecration ) the Doctour auoucheth nothing : but speakinge sommewhat by the waie of likelyhoode , he leaueth the whole mater vnder doubte . In the ende Scotus vncertainely , and doubtefully concludeth thus : Vnde dicunt aliqui , quòd Forma Graecorum , Scotus in . 4. Senten dis. 8. quae. 2. & Forma nostra , & quaecunque scripta in Euangelijs , sufficiens est ad Consecrationem : Whereof somme saie thus , that the Fourme of woordes , that the Greekes vse , and the Fourme that wee vse , and any Fourme els written in the Gospels is sufficient to Consecration . The like certainetie Bonauentura teacheth vs : For thus he endeth : Bonauentura in 4. Senten . dist. 8. De hoc est vtilius dubitare : Quis enim potest scire , vtrùm Euangelistae , aut Apostolus ipse intenderint describete Formam ? Igitur melius est , hîc piè dubitare , quàm praesumptuosé definire : Hereof it is best to stande in doubte . For who can tel , whether the Euangelistes , or the Apostle Paule him selfe , meante to write vs the Fourme of Consecration ? Therefore in this pointe it is better , Soberly to doubte , then presumptuously to determine .

By these fewe , good Christian Reader , thou maiste sée the grounde , and certainetie of M. Hardinges Doctrine . He saithe , Wée haue no Consecration , for that wée lacke a Thing : but what Thinge it should be , he , and his Felowes cannot tel .

How be it , in deede wée vse the same woordes that Christe vsed . If Christe , and his Apostles Consecrated , then doo wée vndoubtedly likewise Consecrate . The wante , that he findeth in vs , he maie also finde in them . S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta 80. Origen in Matt. Cap. 15. Ambros . De ijs qui intiantur , Cap. 9. Accedat Verbum ad Elementum , & fit Sacramentum : Ioine the Woorde of God vnto the Elemente ( or outwarde Creature ) and thereby is made a Sacrament . Origen saithe , Parus sanctificatur per Verbum Dei , & Obsecrationem : The Breade is Consecrate by the Woorde of God , and by Praier . S. Ambrose saithe , Ante Benedictionem Verborum Coelestium , alia species nominatur : post Consecrationem , Corpus Christi Significatur : Before the Blessinge of the Heauenly woordes , it is called an other kinde : After Consecration , the Body of Christe is Signified .

An other quarrel , that M. Hardinge piketh to vs , is , that wee haue no Intention , or minde to Consecrate . But how longe hathe M. Hardinge benne a Wisarde ? 1. Corinth . 2. Articulo . 1. Diuisione . 12. Summa Angel . Eucharisita . 26. Gerson in Floretum , Lib. 4. Panormtian . de Celebratione Miss. Quidam . Or who made him so priuie to our Intention ? S. Paule saithe , Noman can tel , what is in Man , but the Sprite of Man , that is within him . These folies are answeared at large in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . Verily by the late Doctours of that side , the Prieste maie haue Intention , to Consecrate the one halfe of the Hoste , and not the other : Or , hauing thirtéene Hostes , he maie haue Intention , to Consecrate but twelue . And thereof groweth a greate question , when he commeth to the reckeninge , and seeth his errour , whiche of al that whole Companie of Hostes shal goe vnconsecrate . Yea Abbate Panormitane saithe , Etiamsi Sacerdos celebret , vt Deus perdat aliquem , tamen bene Consecrat : Notwithstandinge the Prieste saie Masse , with Intention , that God would destroie somme man , yet dooth he Consecrate neuerthelesse . Into sutche toies these menne throwe them selues , with theire fonde Intentions .

Our Intention is , Matthae . 26. 1. Corin. 11. to doo , that Christe hathe taught vs to doo , that is , to Minister the Holy Sacramente in Remembrance of him : and , as S. Paule saithe , to shewe foorthe , and to publishe the Lordes Deathe , vntil he comme . And to this pourpose one of M. Hardinges owne Doctours saithe , Non sufficit Intentio Consecrandi absolutè : The wicked Receiueth . Sed Oportet , vt sit conformis Intentioni Sacramentum Instituentis : Absolutely the Intention , to Consecrate , is not sufficient : but it muste be answearable vnto the Intention of Christe , Pupilla Oculi , De Eucharistia , ca. 5. that ordeined the Sacramente .

At the Supper of our Lorde , saithe M. Hardinge , ministred in the Catholique Churche , by Priestes rightly Consecrate , there is the true , and whole Body of Our Lorde and Saueour geuen , and receiued : be the receiuers beléeuinge , or not beléeuinge . De Consecra . Dis. 2. Qui bene . In Glossa . Alexand. Halen . Par. 4. quae. 45. memb. 1. This is no greate marueile in M. Hardinges Doctrine . For they of his side saie , Si dicatur , quòd Mus sumat Corpus Christi , non est magnum inconuenines : If it be saide , that a Mouse receiueth the Body of Christe , it is no greate inconvenience . And Alexander of Hales a notable Schole Doctour saith , though in more vnséeingly , & grosser wise , Si Canis , vel Porcus deglutiret Hostiam Consecratam integram , non video quare Corpus Domini non simul traijcertur in ventrem Canis , vel Porci : If a Dogge , or a Sowe shoulde happen to swallow downe the whole Hoste being Consecrate , I see no reason , but the body of our Lorde maie passe withal into the belly of the Dogge , or of the Sowe .

But S. Augustine saithe farre otherwise , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta 26. Origen in Matt. Cap. 15. Hoc est manducare illam escam , & illum potum bibere , in Christo manere , & Christum manentem in se habere : This is the Eatinge of that meate , and the Drinkinge of that Drinke , that a man dwel in Christe , and haue Christe dwellinge in him . Likewise Origen saithe , Est verus Cibus , quem nemo malus potest edere . Etenim si malus posset edere Corpus Domini , non scriberetur , Qui edit hunc panem , viuer in aeternum : The Body of christe is the True Foode , which no euil man can Eate , Fore if the euil man could Eate the Body of Our Lord , it should not be written , Articulo . 23. He that Eateth this Breade , shal liue for euer . But hereof wée haue spoken more at large in the Former Replie to M. Hardinge .

The Heretical Doctrine , that M. Hardinge talketh of , with al the whole forniture of Hypocritical Eloquence , wee maie safely sende home , from whence it came . And I doubte nothinge , but he can wel tel , howe to vse it .

As for Pelagius , Arius , and Nestorius , wee desie them vtterly , and detest them , as wée doo also al other sortes , and sectes of Heresies .

Of the Sacramentes of Christe , wee doo bothe speake , and thinke reuerently , and as it becommeth vs , and accordinge to the Holy Scriptures . Wée saie , that a Creature is a Creature : that a Sacramente is a Sacramente , Augustin in Iohan . tracta 59. Contra Maximin . Cap. 22. and not God , Wée saie with S. Augustine , The Sacramente is not our Lorde , but the Breade of our Lorde Againe S. Augustine saithe , In Sacramentis videndum est , non quid sint , sed quid Significent : In Sacramentes we muste consider , not what they be in deede , but what they Signifie .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 2.

Bisides this , wee acknowledge , there be twoo Sacramentes , whiche wee iudge properly ought to be called by this name : that is to saie , Baptisme , and the Sacramente of thankesgeuing . For thus many wee see were deliuered and sanctified by Christe , and wel allowed of the Olde Fathers , Ambrose , and Augustine , & sutche others .

M. Hardinge .

Why speake ye not plainely ? The Defenders acknowledge but twoo Sacraments . Be there no moe but twoo Sacramentes ? Though ye saie not so expressely , yet wee iudge , that so ye meane . For so your scholefelowe of Geneua Theodore Beza pronounceth in plaine termes in the Confession of your Geneuian Faithe . And so your selues , Defenders , do affirme in the Articles , which ye agreed vpon in your Conuocation holden at London in the yere of our Lorde . 1562. Whiche Articles ye haue put forthe 〈◊〉 printe by the Queenes Auctoritie , as ye pretende . Nowe whereas ye acknowledge there be but twoo Sacramentes , why should any man beleeue you , Diuersitie of Iudgemente in the Gospellers about the number of the Sacramentes . rather then the Germaines your firste Scholemaisters , who * * Vntruthe fond and vaine . in their Confession exhibited to Charles the fifthe then Emperour at Augspurge in the name of al the Protestantes , Anno. 1530. appointe three Sacramentes , Baptisme , the Euchariste , and Penance ? The nexte yere after , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , proceedinge of vnaduised malice , Reade the answeare . Philip Melanchthon in his Apologie auouched those three Sacramentes : but afterwarde in the yere . 1552. he founde out an other , and made vp the number of foure , by addinge the Sacramente of Order to the foresaide three . In Lipsia they receiue three : In Wittenberg , whiche Citie is not thence far of , they haue foure . At Magdeburg thereby also Flacius Illyricus , and so many as folowe him , will haue but two : and the Zwenckfeldians , that spring out of the same stocke , care for none at al.

Forasmuche as ye alleage the names of the Olde Fathers for you , specially S. Ambrose , That there be moe Sacramentes then twoo by the Doctrine of the Fathers Cap. 104. The Sacramente of Confirmation . and S. Augustine , that there be but twoo Sacramentes , let vs see howe muche they make for maintenance of yo●● Doctrine , and wheather they teache vs not , that there be moe S. Augustine in his seconde Bookes ●●ira literas Petiliani , speakinge of the place of the Psalme , Sicut vnguentum in capite , whiche the Heretike had alleaged , saithe thus : In hoc vnguento , &c. In this oinctement his will is to interpret the Sacramente of Chrisme ( he meaneth the Sacramente of Confirmation ) whiche in the kinde of visible signes is Holy , as Baptisme is . Lo , S. Augustine calleth cofirmation a Sacramente . S. Eusebius Pope namethe it a Sacramente in his third epistle written to al the Bis●hoppes of Tuscia and Campania : Manus impositionis Sacramentum , &c. The Sacramente of imposition of Handes ( saithe he ) is to be kepte with greate reuerence , whiche cannot be performed but by the high Priestes , ( he vnderstandeth Bishoppes ) . Melchiades nexte to Syluester before the Nicene Councel speakinge muche of Confirmation , amonge other thinges saithe thus . Duo haec Sacramenta , Baptismi , This forged Melciades auanceth his Oile aboue the Sacramente of Baptisme . & confirmationis , separanda non sunt : These twoo Sacramentes of Baptisme , and Confirmation , maye not be sundered . Though these twoo Bishoppes were Popes , yet they deserue credit , forasmuche as they liued before that corruption crept into the Churche , after your accoumpte , and died Holy Martyrs .

That Penaunce is a Sacramente , The Sacramente of Penance . Cap. 66. Homil. 20. in epist. ad Heb. and so accoumpted amonge the Fathers , it is so euident , that who doubteth of it , maie seeme not to haue perused their writinges . S. Augustine in enchiridio ad Laurentium speakinge of Baptisme and Penaunce , calleth bothe , Salutaria Sacramenta , healthful Sacramentes . S. Ambrose signifieth him selfe to be of the same minde , in his firste Booke de Poentientia , Cap. 6. & . 7. and in the second Booke , Cap. 2. though without puttinge th expresse name of Sacramente . But in the third Chapter of that Booke he putteth the name of Sacramente expressely .

Touchinge Order , The Sacramente of Order . that is a Sacramente , also by verdite of S. Augustine , whom ye alleage for you . Let vs heare what he saithe . In his seconde Booke contra epist. Parmentani Cap. 13. these be his wordes , where he speaketh of Baptisme , and of the Power to Baptize , whiche is geuen in the Sacramente of Order : Vtrunque euim Sacramentum est , & quadam consecratione vtiunque homini datur , illud cum Baptizatur , istud cum ordinatur . Ideo in Catholica non licet vtrunque iterari : Either of them is a Sacramente , and with a certaine Consecration either is geuen to man : the one when he is Baptized , the other when he taketh Orders . Therefore in the Catholike Churche it is not lawful either of them to be taken twise .

For the Sacramente of wedlocke , besides other good and sufficient proufes , that it is a Sacramente , wee haue sundrie testimonies out of S. Augustine , The Sacramente of wedlocke . Lib. de Fide & Operib . c. 7. and other Doctours . In the Churche ( saithe S. Augustine ) not onely the bande of mariage , but also the Sacramente is so commended , that it is not lauful for the husbande to deliuer his Wife to another . He calleth wedlocke a Sacramente in many places of his workes . De bono coniugali . Cap. 7. 18. and in the. 24. Chapter of that Booke hee saithe : Haec omnia bona sunt , propter quae nuptiae bonae sunt , Proles , Fides , Sacramentum : All these thinges be good , for whiche mariage is good , issue , Faithe , the Sacramente .

Of extreme Vnction , The Sacramente of extreme Vnction . Iacob . 5. Lib. 3. de sacerdo . who doubteth whether it be a Sacramente , let him reade the Epistle of Innocentrus the Firste ad Decentium Eugubinum Episcopum , Cap. 8. where moste planely treatinge of it , he nameth it a Sacramente . Chrysostome interpreteth the place of S. Iames epistle for this Sacramente . And so dothe Bede , alleaging the place of S. Iames , the sixth of Marke , the Auctoritie of Innocentius , and the custome of the Churche . Seinge then we haue founde the * * Vntruthe . For the Ancient Faneure recken precisely Seuen onely Sacramentes , seuen sacramentes expressely mentioned in the Fathers , Number of Sacramentes . accordinge to the teaching of the Catholique Churche : whereas ye teache men to beleeue there be but two , and pretend that the Fathers spake of nomo : * * As this is true , so we desire further credite . I truste from henceforthe they wil take better aduise , how they beleue your bare Woorde without al prouse , and with certaine danger of their soules , forsake the Doctrine of the Churche , whiche is the sure Pillour , 1. Timot. 3. and ground of truthe , as S. Paule saithe . In this greate pointe , Beza , and ye of that side bee manifestly founde lyers .

The B. of Sarisburie .

To spende woordes without cause , is affliction of the Sprite , and losse of time . M. Hardinge here bestoweth mutche laboure , and allegeth many Doctours , to winne that thinge , that he might easily haue obteined without any sutche adoo . For , gentle Reader , lefte that thou be deceiued , and thinke , there is somme weight in this heape of feathers , wee wil graunt without force , and freely , that the Holy Catholique Fathers haue made mention , not onely of Seuen , as M. Hardinge here accoumpteth them , but also of Seuenteene sundrie Sacramentes . a a Tertul. Aduersus Iud. cos . Tertullian calleth the Helue , wherewith Elizaeus recouered the Axe out of the water , Sacramentum Ligni , the Sacramente of Woode : And the whole state of the Christian Faithe , he calleth b b Tertull. contra . Marcionem , li. 4. Religionis Christianae Sacramentum , The Sacramente of Christian Religion . c c Augustin . in Epist. 112. d d Augustin . in Sermone De Sanctis . 19. S. Augustine in many places hathe Sacramentum Crucis , The Sacrament of the Crosse . Thus he saithe , In hac Crucis Figura continetur Sacramentum : In this Figure , or Fourme of the Crosse there is conteined a Sacrament . So saith Leo , e e Leo de Resurrectione Domini , Sermo. 2. Crux Christi , quae saluandis est impensa Fidelibus , & Sacramentum est , & exemplum : The Crosse of Christe , whiche was geuen to saue the Faitheful , is bothe a Sacramente , and also a Samplar . S. Hierome saithe , f f Hieronym . ad Oceanum . E latere Christi Baptismi , atque Martyrij pariter Sacramente funduntur : Out of Christes side the Sacramentes of Baptisme , and Martyrdome are powred foorthe bothe togeather . * * Inter Decreta Leonis , Cap. 14. Leo calleth the promisse of Virginitie , Sacramentum : Quid eos manebit , qui corruperine foedera Diuini Sacramenti ? What shal becomme of them , that haue broken the Couenante of the Heauenly Sacramente ? g g Augustin . De Peccator merit . & remiss . Li 2. The Breade , that was geuen vnto the Nouices , or Beginners in the Faithe , called Catechumeni , before they were Baptized , of S. Augustine is called a Sacramente , h h Hilar. in Matt. Canon 11. & . 12. & Canon . 23. S. Hilarie in sundrie places saith , Sacramentum Orationis : Sacramentum Esuritionis : Sacramentum Scripturarum : Sacramentum Fletus : Sacramentum Sitis : The Sacramente of Praier : The Sacramente of Fastinge : The Sacramente of the Scriptures : The Sacramente of Weepinge : The Sacramente of Thirste . i i Bernard . in Sermo . De Coena Domini . S. Bernarde calleth the wasshinge of the Apostles foete , a Sacramente : Ablutio Pedum Sacramentum est quotidianorum peccatorum : The Wasshinge of feet is the Sacramente of daily Sinnes .

Thus many , and many moe Sacramentes , it had benne easy for M. Hardinge to haue founde in the Catholique Learned Fathers . Yet , I trowe , he wil not saie , that either the Helue of an Axe , or the whole Religion of Christe , or a Crosse printed in the foreheade , or Martyrdome , or the Scriptures , or a Vowe of Virginitie , or the Breade geuen to the Catechumeni , or Praier , or Fastinge , of Wéepinge , or Thirste , or Wasshinge of féete , are the necessarie seuen Sacramentes of the Churche .

How be it , wée wil not greately striue for the name . It appeareth hereby , that many thinges , that in deede , and by special propertie be no Sacramentes , maie neuerthelesse passe vnder the general name of a Sacramente . But thus wee saie , It cannot be proued , neither by the Scriptures , nor by the Ancient Learned Fathers , that this Number is so specially appointed , and Consecrate to this pourpose , or that there be neither moe , nor lesse Sacramentes in the Churche , but onely Seuen .

As for the Reasones , that they of M. Hardinges side haue brought vs for proufe hereof , they are too Childishe to be remembred . For thus they saie ,

The Booke in the Apocalyps hathe Seuen Seales : Apocalyp . 5. The Seuen Angels there haue Seuen trumpettes : Apocalyp . 8. Christe hath in his right hande Seuen starres : Apocalyp . 7. Christ walketh in the middes of Seuen golden Candlesticks : Apocalyp . 1. Zacharie sawe Seuen eies vpon a stone : Zachar. 3. There were Seuen Candlestickes in the Tabernacle : Exod 37.

Ergo , In Compendi● Theologiae . saie they , there muste needes be iuste Seuen Sacramentes in the Churche of God .

But vnto euery necessarie Sacramente of the Churche , twoo thinges specially are required : that is , a Sensible outwarde Elemente , and the Woorde of Institution . And without either of these there is no Sacramente . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta. 80. Accedat Verbum ad Elementum , & fit Sacramentum : Ioine the Woorde of Christes Institution vnto the sensible Creature , or outwarde Elemente : and thereof is made a Sacramente . The Element , or Creature in Baptisme is Water : the Elementes , or Creatures in Our Lordes Supper , are Breade , & Wine : The woordes of Institution are common , and knowen .

The other fiue Sacramentes want , either the Woorde , or the Elemente , or bothe togeather : As for example , Matrimonie , Order , and Penance haue the Woorde of God , but they haue no outwarde Creature , or Elemente . Extreme Vnction , and Confirmation haue neither Woorde , nor Elemente . Therefore these fiue later , in proper vse of speache , are not taken for Sacramentes of the Churche .

For thus Alexander of Hales saithe , Alexander . Halen . par. 4. qu● . 24. mem. 1. Sacramentum Confirmationis , vt est Sacramentum , neque Dominus instituit , neque Apostoli : Sed postea institutum est in Concilio Meldensi : The Sacramente of Confirmation , as it is a Sacramente , was not ordeined , either by Christe , or by the Apostles : but afterwarde in the Councel of Melda .

So likewise Durandus saithe , Matrimonium strictè , & proprié loquendo , non est Sacramentum : Durandus . Matrimonie in dewe , and proper kinde of speache is no Sacramente .

Nowe to that , wée make accoumpte onely of Two Sacramentes , as instituted by Christe , Irenaeus . Iustin . Apol. 2. Tertul. 1. & 4. Con. Marcion . Ambros . De Sacramen . Cyril . in Mystagogicis . Cyprian . Li. 2. Epist. 1. ad Steph. Augustin . De Doctrina Christian . Li. 3. ca. 9. August . De Symbolo ad Catechumenos . Paschasius De Coena Domini . wherewith M. Hardinge findeth him selfe so mutche offended , it maie please him to vnderstande , that the Anciente Learned Fathers , Irenaeus , Iustinus Martyr , Tertullian , S. Ambrose , Cyrillus Alexandrinus , and others , hauinge occasion to intreate of pourpose , and specially hereof , speake onely of Two Sacramentes , Baptisme , and Our Lordes Supper , and name none other . S. Cyprian saithe , Tunc demùm planè sanctificari , & esse Filij Dei possunt , si vtroque Sacramento nascantur : Then maie they be throughly Sanctified , and become the Children of God , if they be newe borne by both the Sacramentes . S. Augustine saith , Quaedam Pauca pro multis , eademque factu facillima , & intellectu augustissima , & obseruatione castissima , ipse Dominus , & Apostolica tradidit disciplina : sicuti est Baptismi Sacramentum , & Celebratio Corporis , & Sanguinis Domini : Our Lorde , and his Apostles haue deliuered vnto vs a fewe Sacramentes in steede of many , and the same in dooing moste easy , in signification moste excellent , in obseruation most reuerende : as is the Sacrament of Baptisme , and the Celebration of the Body , and Bloude of Our Lorde . Againe , speakinge of Baptisme , and the Supper , he saithe thus : Haec sunt Ecclesiae Gemina Sacramenta : These be the Twoo Sacramentes of the Churche . Paschasius saithe , Sunt Sacramenta Christi in Ecclesia Catholica , Baptismus , & Corpus , Two Sacramentes & Sanguis Domini : These be the Sacramentes of Christe in the Catholique Churche : Baptisme , and the Body , and Bloud of our Lorde . To be short , Cardinal Bessarion saithe , Bessarion De Sacramento Eucharistiae . Haec Duo Sola Sacramenta in Euangelijs manifestè tradita legimus : Wee reade , that these Onely twoo Sacramentes were deliuered to vs plainly in the Scriptures .

Here hath M. Hardinge in expresse woordes , Bothe the Sacramentes , and the two sacramentes , and the Onely two Sacramentes of the Churche . Iudge thou nowe therefore , good Christian Reader , what truthe thou maiste recken to be in him , that saithe , Beza , and they of this side are manifestly founde liers .

Al these thinges notwithstanding , the late pretensed Councel of Tridente with moste horrible threates , and great Curses , concludeth the contrarie : Si quis dixerit , Concil. Triden . Session . 7. Sacramenta Nouae Legis non fuisse omnia à Iesu Christo Domino nostro instituta , aut esse Plura , vel pauciora , quàm septem , aut etiam aliquod horum non esse veré , & propriè Sacramentum , Anathema sit : If any man shal saie , that the Sacramentes of the Newe Lawe were not al ordeined of Our Lorde Jesus Christe : or that there be fewer , or moe then seuen : or that any one of the same , verily , and in proper vse of speache is not a Sacramente , accursed be he .

But ye saie , Luther , and the Germaines admitte three Sacramentes , Baptisme , the Lordes Supper , and Penance : And Philip Melancthon afterwarde founde out the fourthe . O , M. Hardinge , what is it , that thus enflameth your tongue to speake Vntruthe ? Yf it had pleased you , to haue séene it , Luther , & Melancthon plainely expressed theire owne meaninge , and vtterly remoued al manner occasion of sutche cauilles . In Captiuitate Babylonica . Luther writeth thus , Propriè ea visum est vocare Sacramenta , quae annexis Signis promissa sunt : Coetera , quia Signis alligata non sunt , nuda promissa sum . Quò fit , ut si rigidè loqui velimus , tantùm duo sint in Ecclesia Dei Sacramenta , Baptismus , & Panis : cùm in his Solis , & institutum diuinitùs signum , & promissionem Remissionis Peccatorum videamus : In Proper speache those wee cal Sacramentes , whiche are promissed with signes annexed . The reste , that haue no Signes , are bare promisses . Wherefore speakinge hereof precisely , and strictely , there are Onely two Sacramentes in the Churche of God , Baptisme , and the Breade : for as mutche as in these Onely we finde bothe the Signe ordeined by God , and also the Promisse of Remission of Sinnes . In Apologia Confessionis Augustinae . Likewise Melancthon saithe , He can wel cal Order , a Sacrament , so that it be knowen from Baptisme , and the Supper , whiche in Proper speache , and verily be called Sacramentes .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 3.

Wee saie , that Baptisme is a Sacramente of the Remission of Sinnes , & of that wasshing , which we haue in the Bloud of Christe : and that no person , whiche wil professe Christes name , ought to be restreined , or keapte backe therfrom : no not the very Babes of Christians : forsomutche as they be borne in sinne , and doo perteine vnto the people of God . Baptisme very sclenderly spoken of by the Defenders . Baptisme taught by our Newe cleregie to be but a Signe and seale of our newe birth .

M. Hardinge .

As ye acknowldege fewe Sacramentes , so ye speake of them very slenderly . Baptisme ( ye saie ) is a Sacramente of the remission of sinnes , and of that wasshinge whiche wee haue in the Bloude of Christe . Now whereas ye meane , as within fewe lines ye declare , by the name of a Sacramente , * * Vntruthe . For we saie no● so . no more but a Token or Signe , specially sith ye teache in your articles that Baptisme at the best , is but a Signe , and Seale of our newe birthe : ye seme not to attribute to Baptisme so mutche , as the Scripture dothe . Neither is Baptisme onely a Signe or Token , that sinnes be remitted , but , wee beleeue , as the Catholique Churche , according to the Scriptures teacheth , that in , and by Baptisme sinnes be fully , and truely remitted , That in Baptisme sinnes be fully and truly forgeuen . Cap. 36. Timot. 3. and put awaie : and that not through the Faithe * * This talke is needelesse , and out of season . onely of the geuer , or receiuer , or of any other , though hereunto it be necessarie in th●se , that be come to age of discretion : but through the power , and vertue of the Sacrament , and Gods promise . And therefore to whom it is geuen , of them it is rightly saide , that , they be Baptized for remission of their sinnes . The scriptures be plaine . Firste Ezechiel speakinge of this Holy Sacrament , saithe in the person of God : I wilshed vpon you cleane water , and ye shal be made cleane from al your defilinges , and from your Idols wil I clense you . Nexte S. Paule saithe , That God hath saued vs by the wasshinge of Regeneration , and of the renewing of the Holy Ghoste , whom he hath powred vpon vs aboundantly by Iesus Christe our Sauiour . That I maie adde to these manifest Scriptures the Auctoritie of a Learned Father , not whereby to strengthen the truthe of them , but to witnesse our right vnderstandinge of them : S. Augustine , Lib. 3. contra duas epist. Pelagian . Cap. 3. shewinge the sclaunder of the Pelagians againste the Catholikes , saithe thus in theire Persone : Againe they ( that is , after theire meaninge , the Catholikes ) auouche , that Baptisme maketh not in deede newe menne againe , that is to witte , that it geueth not ful remission of sinnes , &c. Thereto eftsones answearinge S. Augustine saithe , * * These woordes maie wel perteine to M. Har. him selfe . For we sai not thus . Mentiuntur , Pelagians belied the Catholikes as the Sacramentaries do also nowe . iusidiantur , tergiuersantur . They lye , they studye howe to deceiue , they seeke shiftes : wee saie not this . And after certaine sentences retourninge to Baptisme , he concludeth thus : Wherefore Baptisme wassheth awaie al sinnes , vtterly al , of dedes , wordes , thoughtes , be they Original , or Actual : be they done ignorantly , or wittingly . But it taketh not awaie the infirmitie , whiche the regenerate resisteth , &c. Whiche place doth not onely set foorthe the vertue of Baptisme , but also Vntruthe , ioined with grosse ignorance . M. Har. fouly mistaketh S. Augustines minde . destroieth the Doctrine of our New Gospellers , that affirme concupiscence , whiche remaineth after Baptisme , to be verily sinne ▪ * * Vntruthe fond and vaine . Reade the Answeare . Wherein they erre manifestly againste the Scripture , and sense of the Fathers .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Il wil is euer plenetiful of ili wordes . M. Hardinge here maketh him selfe mutche mater without cause . He teacheth our Newe Cleregie , that Baptisme is not onely a Signe , or a Token of Remission of sinnes : He telleth vs of the Faithe of the Geeuer : of the Faithe of the Receiuer : Of the Power of the Sacramente : Of Concupiscence , that it is no sinne . And more , I trowe , he would haue saide , if more had presently comme to minde . Verily the poore Newe Cleregie speaketh not one woorde in al this whole place , neither of Signe , nor of Token , nor of the Receiuer , nor of the Geeuer , nor of the Power of the Sacrament , nor of Concupiscence , whether it be Sinne , or not Sinne , nor of any other like thinge . Yet in the ende he taketh S. Augustines woordes , without his meaninge , and crieth againste vs , They lie , they studie to deceiue , they seke shiftes . And why so ? Certainely bicause wée saie , Baptisme is a Sacrament of Remission of Sinnes : And that the Children of the Faitheful , for that they be borne in Sinne , and perteine to the people of God , ought therefore to be Baptized . Other causes then these in any Our Woordes he can finde none .

True it is , that the Sacramente dependeth not , neither of the Minister , nor of the Receiuer , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta . 5. De Conse . dist. 4. Baptismus talis . Iohan. 1. nor of any other . For though they be al the Children of sinne , yet is Baptisme the Sacramente of Remission of Sinne . S. Augustine saithe , Securum me fecit Magister meus , de quo spiritus eius dicit , Hic est , qui Baptizat : Christe my Maister hath assured me , of whom his owne Sprite saithe , this is he , that Baptizeth .

Neuerthelesse concerninge the Faithe of the Parentes , Augustin . De Libero Arbitrio Li. 3. Ca. 22. Augustin . De Verbis Apostol● Sermo ▪ 10. and others , the Holy Doctours haue sommetimes written otherwise . S. Augustine saithe , Satis piè , recteque creditur , Prodesse paruulo eorum Fidem , à quibus Consecrandus offertur : It is good and Godly to beleue , that the Child is holpen by the Faithe of them , by whom he is offered , or brought vnto Baptisme . Againe he saithe , Accommodat illis Mater Ecclesia aliorum pedes , vt veniant : aliorum Cor , vt credant : Our Mother the Churche lendeth them other mennes fecte , that they maie comme ▪ and other mennes hartes , The Faith of the Infantes . that they maie beleeue . The like saieings might be alleged out of Iustinus Martyr , S. Cyprian , S. Hierome , and others . For thus they write . Howe truely , I wil not saie . But theire woordes be plaine . The Prophets Abacuc saithe , Iustus ex Fide sua viuet : The Juste man shal liue , ( not by the Faithe of his Parentes , but ) by his owne Faithe .

Of this Faith S. Hierome saith , Hieronym . in Ezechiel . ca. 16. De Consecra . Dist. 4. Verus . Actor . 15. 1 petri . 3. Qui plena Fide non suscipiunt Salutare Baptisma , accipiunt quidem Aquam , sed non accipiunt Spiritum : They that receiue not Baptisme with perfite Faithe , receiue the Water : But the Holy Ghoste they receiue not . S. Augustine saithe , Verus Baptismus constat , non tam ablutione Corporis , quàm Fide Cordis : Sicut Apostolica Doctrina tradidit , dicens , Fide mundans Corda eorum : Et alibi , Saluos facit Baptisma , non Carnis depositio sordium , sed conscientiae bonae interrogatio in Deum , per Resurrectionem Iesu Christi : True Baptisme standeth , not so mutche in wasshinge of the Body , as in the Faithe of the harte : As the Doctrine of the Apostles hathe tought vs , saieinge , By Faithe purifieinge theire hartes . And in an other place , Baptisme maketh vs safe : not the putting awaie of the filth of the Fleash , but the examining of a good conscience before God , by the Resurrection of Jesus Christe . Likewise againe he saith , Vnde ista tanta Virtus Aquae , Augustin . in Iohan. tracta . ●0 . vt corpus tangat , & Cor abluat , nisi faciente Verbo ? Non quia dicitur , sed quia creditur : Whence is al this so greate Vertue , or Power of the Water , that it toucheth the Body , and wassheth the Harte , but by the woorkinge of the Woord ? Not for that it is spoken ( by the Minister ) but for that it is beleeued ( of the Faitheful ) .

Somme man wil saie , Children , or Infantes beléeue nothinge , but are vtterly voide of Faithe . S. Augustine answeareth , Augustin . Epist. 205. Qui non crediderit , condemnabitur . Sicut eos renasci per Ministerium Baptizantium , ita etiam eos credere per corda , & ora confitentium confitemur : He that beleeueth not , shal be damned . Wee confesse , that as they be borne againe by the Ministerie of the Baptizers , so they beleue by the hartes , and mouthes of the Confessours . Augustin . Epist. 23. In eadem Episto . Againe he saithe , Habent Fidem , propter Fidei Sacramentum : Theie haue Faithe , bicause they haue ( Baptisme , whiche is ) the Sacrament of Faithe . For he saithe , Quemadmodum Sacramentum Corporis Christi secundum quendam modum Corpus Christi est , ita Sacramentum Fidei Fides est : As the Sacramente of Christes Body , ( not verily , and in deede , but ) after a certaine manner of speeche is Christes Body : So Baptisme is Faithe , bicause it is the Sacrament of Faithe . Therfore Cardinal Caietane is woorthily blamed by Catharinus , Catharinus contra Caietanum , errore . 87. & , 88. in that he saith , An Infante for that he wanteth instruction in Faithe , therefore hathe not perfite Baptisme .

Touchinge the Vertue , or Power of this Sacramente , if M. Hardinge mean● thereby the outwarde Elemente of the Water , he knoweth , or maye easily know , It is a common resolution emongest al his owne Schole Doctours , Gratia Dei non est alligata Sacramentis : The Grace of God is not tied to any Sacramentes . The meaning thereof is , that God is hable to woorke Saluation , bothe with them , and without them . Augustin . in Iohan. tracta. 80. S. Augustine saithe , as it is before alleged : Iam vos mundi estis propter sermonem , quem locutus sum vobis . Quare non ait , Mundi estis propter Baptismum , quo loti estis : Nisi , quia etiam in Aqua Verbum mundat ? Detrahe Verbum : & quid est Aqua , De Con. dis. 4. Aliud est . nisi , Aqua ? Nowe are ye cleane bicause of the Woorde , that I haue spoken to you . But why saithe he not , Nowe Ye are cleane bicause of the Baptisme , wherwith ye are wasshed : sauing y● , bicause in the Water it is the Woord , that maketh cleane ▪ Take awaie the Woorde , and what is the Water , more then Water ? Therefore he saithe , Augusti epist. 23. Aqua exhibet forinsecùs Sacramentum Gratiae : The Water geueeth vs outwardly the Sacramente of Grace .

Notwithstandinge wee muste consider , that the Learned , Fathers in theire treaties of the Sacramentes , sommetime vse the outwarde Signe in stéede of the thinge it selfe , that is signified : sommetime they vse the thinge Signified , in stéede of the Signe . As for example , The Power of Baptisme . Sommetimes they name Christes Bloude in stéede of the Water : Sommetime they name the Water in steede of Christes Bloude . This Figure is called Metonymia , that is to saie , an exchange of names : and is mutche vsed emongst the Learned , specially speakinge of the Sacramentes .

S. Augustine vsinge the Water in place of the Bloude of Christe , that is Signified by the Water , saithe thus : August . Epist. 23. Soluit vinculum culpae : reconciliat bonum naturae : regenerat hominem in Vno Christo : It breaketh the bande of Sinne : It reconcileth the goodnesse of Nature : It dooth renewe a man in One Christe .

Notwithstanding , in déede , and in precise manner of speache . Saluation muste be sought in Christe alone , and not in any outwarde Signes . Christe is that Lambe of God , Iohan. 1. 1. Iohan. 1. Cyprian . De Baptismo Christi . that taketh awaie the Sinnes of the Worlde : The Bloude of Christe maketh vs cleane from al our Sinnes . S. Cyprian saithe , Remi●io peccatorum , ●iue per Baptismum , siue per alia Sacramenta donetur , Propriè Spiritus Sancti est : & ipsi soli huius efficientiae Priuilegium mane● . Verborum solennitas , & Sacri inuocatio Nominis , & Signa Apostolicis Institutionibus attribura , Visibile celebrant Sacramentum . Rem verò ipsam Spiritius Sanctus format , & efficit : The Remission of Sinne , whether it be geeuen by Baptisme , or by any other Sacramente , is in deede of the Holy Ghoste : and to the same Holy Ghoste onely the Priuilege of this woorke dooth appertaine . The solemnitie of the Woordes , and the inuocation of Goddes Holy Name , and the outwarde Signes appointed to the Ministerie of the Priestes , by the Institution of the Apostles , wooorke the Visible outwarde Sacramente : But touchinge the substance thereof ( whiche is the Remission of Sinnes ) it is the Holy Ghoste , that woorketh it . Likewise saithe S. Hierome , Hieronym . in Esa●am , Cap. 4. Homo Aquam tantùm tribuit : Deus autem dat Spiritum Sanctum , quo sordes abluuntur : The Minister , being a man , geeueth onely the Water : but God geeueth the Holy Ghoste , whereby the Sinnes be washte awaie . And againe , Hierony . ad Galat. Cap. 3. Si quis Corporeum , & , quod oculis Carnis aspicitur . Aquae tantùm accipit lauacrum , non est indutus Dominum Iesum Christum : If any man haue receiued onely the Bodily wasshinge of Water , that is outwardly seene with the eie , he hath not put on our Lorde Jesus Christe .

Concerninge Concupiscence , remaininge in the faitheful after Baptisme , whether it be Sinne , or no Sinne , there was no greate cause , why M. Hardinge shoulde in this place moue question : sauinge that , as he hath hitherto denied , that Falshedde is Falshedde , so he woulde nowe denie , that Sinne is Sinne . Vndoubtedly S. Paule féelinge the same Concupiscence in him selfe , is forced to moorne , Roman. 7. and to crie out , I see an other Lawe in my members , fightinge againste the Lawe of my minde , and leadinge me Prisoner to the Lawe of sinne . And againe , O Wretched man , that I am : who shal deliuer me from this Body of Deathe ? Therefore S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . Lib. 10. Epist. 84. Non iuuenitur in vllo hominum tanta concordia , vt Legi Mentis Lex , quae Membris est insita , non repugnet . Propter quod ex omnium Sanctorum Persona accipitur , quod Iohannes Apostolus ait , Si dixerimus , quòd pecca●um non habemus , nos ipsos seducimus , & Veritas in nobis non est : There is not found in any man sutche concorde ( bitweene the Fleashe , and the Sprite ) but that the Lawe ( of Concupiscence ) whiche is planted in the Members . fighteth against the Lawe of the Minde . And for that cause the woordes of S. John the Apostle are taken , as spoken in the Persone of al Sainctes , 1. Iohan. 1. If wee saie , wee haue no Sinne , wee deceiue our selues , and there is no Truthe in vs . And to leaue al others , S. Augustine saithe in moste plaine wise , Concupiscentia Carnis , August . contra Iulian. li. 5. ca. 3. aduersus quam bonus Concupiscit Spiritus , & Peccatum est , & Poena Peccati , & Causa Peccati : The Concupiscence of the Fleashe , against whiche the good Sprite lusteth , is bothe Sinne , and the Paine of sinne , and the Cause of sinne . Augu in Iohan. Tracta. 41. And againe he saithe , Quàmdiu viuis , necesse est Peccatum esse in membris ruis : Concupiscence is Sinne . As longe , as thou liuest , there muste needes be Sinne in thy members .

If M. Hardinge saie , wee wreaste , and racke S. Augustine , and take his woordes otherwise , then he meante , Albertus Pighius his owne Principal Doctour wil control him . Albertus Pighiin Controuer. de Peccato Originis . Thus he writeth : Augustinus tradit , hanc ipsam Concupiscentiam Corpori nostro inspersam , atque innatam in nondum renatis verè , & propriè Peccatum esse : quae ignoscatur quidem , sed non tollatur in Baptismo : S. Augustine teacheth vs , that this same Concupiscence planted in our Body , in them , that be not regenerate by Baptisme , Verily , and in plaine manner of speache is Sinne : and that the same Concupiscence is foregeeuen in Baptisme , but is not vtterly taken awaie .

Yet the late blessed Chapter of Tridente , in spite of S. Augustine , hathe published the Contrarie : Concil. Trident. Session . 5. Hanc Concupiscentiam , quam Apostolus aliquando appellat Peccatum , Sancta Synodus declarat , Ecclesiam Catholicam nunquam intellexisse , quòd verè , & propriè in renatis Peccatum sit : sed quia ex Peccato est , & ad Peccatum inclinat . Si quis autem contrarium senserit , Anathema sit : The Concupiscence , whiche the Apostle S. Paule sommetime calleth Sinne , this Holy Councel declareth , that the Cathosique Churche neuer vnderstoode it to be called sinne , for that it is so in deede , and in Proper manner of Speache , in them that be Baptized : but bicause it is of Sinne , and enclineth vs vnto Sinne . And if any man thinke the Contrarie , accused be he . Thus wée see , that by the Decrée of this woorthy Couente , S. Ambrose , and S. Augustine , & other Holy Fathers , that haue written the same , are al accursed .

As for that M. Hardinge here toucheth , as an errour defended by certaine , I knowe not , by whom , that Baptisme géeueth not ful Remission of Sinne , he mai● commaunde it home againe to L●uaine emongest his felowes , and ieine it with other of his , and their● Vanities . For it is no parte , nor portion of our Doctrine . Wée Confesse , and haue euermore taught , that in the Sacramente of Baptisme by the Deathe , and Bloude of Christe , is géeuen Remission of al manner Sinnes : and that not in halfe , or in parte , or by waie of Imagination , or by fansie : but ful , whole , and Perfite , of al togeather : so that nowe , as S. Paule saithe , Roman. 8. There is no damnation vnto them , that be in Christe Jesu .

Nowe iudge thou indifferently , gentle Reader , what Sprite forced M. Hardinge thus terribly to crie oute , They Lie : they studie to deceiue : they seeke shiftes , &c.

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 1.

Wee saie , that Eucharistia , that is to saie , the Supper of the Lorde , is a Sacramente , that is , an euident Representation of the Body , and Bloude of Christe : wherein is sette , as it were , before our eies , the Deathe of Christe , and his Resurrection , and what so euer he did , whilest he was in his Mortal Body : to th ende wee maie geene him thankes for his Deathe , and for our deliueraunce . And that by the often receiuinge of this Sacramente , wee maie daily renewe the remembraunce thereof , to th intente wee beinge fedde with the Body , and Bloude of Christe , maie be brought into the hope of the Resurrection , and of Euerlastinge Life : and maie moste assuredly beleeue , that , as our bodies be fedde with Breade , and Wine , so our Soules be fedde with the Body , and Bloude of Christe .

M. Hardinge .

Amonge al these gay woordes * * Wee vtter as many Syllables of Real Presence , as Christe euer vttered . we heare not so mutche as one Syllable vttered , whereby we may vnderstande , that ye beleue , the Very Body of Christe to be in deede Presente in the blessed Sacrament of the Aulter . Ye confesse the Eucharistia , whiche commonly ye cal , the Supper of the Lorde , to be a Sacramente , The Lordes supper with the Defenders is an euident token of the Body and Bloude of Christe . and al that to be none other then an euident token of the Body and Bloud of Christe . As for that ye adde to make the matter seme sommewhat , of the Deathe of Christe , and his Resurrection , and his actes done in fleshe : What reason or scripture haue ye , that a peece of Bread and a Cuppe of Wine ( for * * Vntruthe , ioined with sclaunder , and malice . in your belefe more make ye not of this Sacramente ) can set them as it were before our eies ? Dothe not rather a faire Painted table set foorth the actes of our Sauiour before our eies more liuely and more expressely ? And be we not moued therewith to geue God thankes for his greate benefites , as wel as if we haue Breade and Wine on a table ? But I praie you , sithens al is * * Vntruthe , sclaunderous , as the Former . but Breade and Wine after your teachinge , howe shal we by eatinge and drinkinge thereof be fedde with the Body and Bloude of Christe ? Againe can we by Euen as wel , as by the Water in Baptisme . Breade and Wine be brought into hope of the Resurrection , and Euer lastinge life , as ye saie ? And howe shal we by Eatinge of Breade and Drinking of Wine be assured , that Christes Body and Bloude doth in like manner feede our soules , as Breade and Wine feedeth our bodies ? Though your imagination be neuer so stronge , yet by eatinge of that , whiche is Breade onely , and Drinkinge of that , whiche is Wine onely , we see not how your soules can be fedde with the True Body and Bloude of Christe , no more then ye be at your common meales .

Verily , when al your tale is tolde , ye seme to saie nothinge els touchinge the eatinge of our Lordes Body , but that the Body of Christe remaineth in Heauen , and that we muste sende vp our soules thither , to eate it there by a certaine Imagination , whiche ye cal faithe . For this is your Maister Caluines Doctrine . Faithe doth al. By this Doctrine al standeth vppon your faithe : your faithe doth al alone . And he that beleueth in Christe , so as ye teache , eateth his Body , and Drinketh his Bloude . For by your Gospel , to eate the Body , is nothinge els , but to beleue in Christe . If this be true , then is your Supper superfluous .

For declaration of the Truthe herein , The Catholike Doctrine touchinge the Sacramente of th aulter . it is to be considered that , when we speake of this blessed Sacramente , we meane specially , the thinge receiued to be the very Real Body of Christe , not onely a Signe or Token of his Body . Yet we thinke it necessarie . * * Vntruthe , contrarie to the Ancient Fathers : Reade the Answeare . the Doctrine of the Fathers be clerely taught : whiche is , that here is a Sacramente , and the thinge of the Sacramente . The Vntruthe , without sense or sauoure . No Catholique Father euer taught this peeuishe Doctrine . Forme of Breade and Wine , whiche is sene , is the Sacramente , that is to saie , a Signe of the Holy thinge . For a Sacramente besides the outwarde shape , whiche it representeth to the senses , causeth an other thinge to come into knowledge . The thinge of this Sacramente is of two sortes , the one * * Vntruthe , and one of M Harmystical dreames . in tho same conteined and signified , the other signified , but not conteined . The firste is the Body of Christe borne of the Virgine Mary , and his Bloude shed for our Redemption : the Seconde is the Vnitie of the Churche in these that be predestinate , A threefold distinction to be considered in the Doctrine of this Sacramente . called , iustified , and glorified . Whiche Churche is Christes Body mystical . So that here are three distincte thinges vnderstanded . The one is a Sacramente onely : the other a Sacramente and the thinge : the thirde the thinge , and not a Sacramente . The firste is the visible shape or Forme of Breade and Wine : the seconde is the proper and very Fleashe and Bloude of Christe : the thirde , his Mystical Body .

And as there be two thinges of this Sacrament , so be there also two meanes or waies of eating . The one Sacramental , after whiche bothe good and Vntruth horrible , and Heathenishe . euil eate the true Body of Christe : they to saluation , these to damnation . The other spiritual , after whiche the good only do eate . These Defenders , as al other the Sacrament aries , Indistinct speakinge of distinct thinges . speakinge of these distinct thinges indistinctly , cause confusion , and deceiue the vnlearned readers . In sutche a sense and meaninge the place commonly alleged out of S. Augustine , as also many other the like , maye wel be vnderstanded , without preiudice of the Truthe of Christes Body in the Sacrament : Vt quid paras dentem & Venttem ? Crede , & manducasti . To what pourpose makest thou ready teeth and bely ? Beleue , and thou hast eaten . Nowe these Defenders harping●●●n●ly vpon this one stringe of spiritual eatinge , and shunninge the Faithe of the Catholike Churche touching the true presence of the Body , and Violently wresting the Holy Scripture , and Auncient Fathers to a contrary sense , Faithe Eateth . admittinge Figures for Truthe , tropes for the letter , shadowes for thinges : plaie vs many a false lesson , Al this is onely M. Hardinges discante . Wee admit Figures for Figures , and Truthe for Truthe . and teache horrible lies , to the vtter subuersion of those , that be lead by them .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here is no mention , saithe M. Hardinge , of Real Presence : and thereupon he plaieth vs many a proper Lesson . Notwithstandinge here is as mutche mention made of Real Presence , as either Christe , or his Apostles euer made : or in the Primutiue Catholique Churche of God was euer beléeued .

Farther he saithe , What reason , or Scripture haue ye , that a Peece of Breade , and a Cuppe of Wine can sette the Death , and Resurrection of Christe , as it were , before your eies ? Verily , when al your tale is tolde , ye seeme to saie nothinge els , but that the Body of Christe remaineth in Heauen , and that wee muste sende vp our soules thither , to eate it there by a certaine imagination , whiche ye cal Faithe .

Here ye doo greate wronge , M. Hardinge , to cal the Faithe of Christe , an Imagination , or , as I trowe : ye meane , a fansie . S. Paule saithe , Fides est Substantia rerum sperandarum : Faithe is ( not an Imagination , but ) the Substance and grounde of the thinges , that wee hope for . If ye trauaile once againe to Rome , being thus far instructed already , ye wil easily learne the Lesson , that one of your late Popes there , as it is reported , taught his Cardinalles : O , quantum nobis profuit illa Fabula de Christo ?

That wée ought to sende vp our Faithe into Heauen , and there to embrace the Body of Christe , it is S. Augustines Doctrine , it is not ours . These be his woordes : Dices , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta . 52 Quomodò tenebo Christum Absentem ? Quomodò in Coelum manum mittam , vt ibi sedentem teneam ? Fidem mitte : & tenuisti . Parentes tui tenuerunt Carne : tu tene Corde : Thou wilt saie , howe shal I holde Christe beeinge Absente ? Howe we shal I reache my hande into Heauen , that I maye holde him sittinge there ? Sende vp thy Faithe : and thou holdest him . Thy Fathers ( the Iewes ) helde him in the fleashe : Holde him thou in thy harte .

But for as mutche as H. hardinge thought it sufficient , so pleasantly to passe ouer this mater with his Imaginations , and fansies , I thinke it therefore so mutche the more néedeful , to shewe the iudgemente of the Auncient Learned Fathers in that behalfe .

First therefore S Augustine saithe , Augu. De Trinitate , Li. 13. Ca. 1. Rerum Absentium Praesens est Fides : & rerum , quae foris sunt , intus est Fides : & rerum , quae non videntur , videtur Fides : Of thinges that be Absente , Faithe is Presente : of thinges , that be without , Faithe is within : and of thinges that be not seene , Augustin in . Psalm. 75. Faithe is seene . Againe be saithe , Cùm non obliuiscimur munus Saluatoris , nonne nobis quotidiè Christus immolatur ? Ex ipsis reliquijs cogitationis nostrae , id est , ex ipsa memoria Christus quotidiè nobis sic immolatur , quasi quotidiè nos innouet : When wee foregeate not the gifte of our Saueoure , is not Christe offered vnto vs euery daye ? Of the very remanentes of our thoughtes , that is to say , of our very memorie , Christe is so daily offered vnto vs , as though he renewed vs euery daie .

And , Hieronym . De 7. Ordinib . Eccle. De gradu 7. the more liuely to expresse this mater , S. Hierome saith , Tibi Conuiuium Christus est : Cogitatio Christus est : Gaudium Christus est : Desiderium Christus est : Lectio Christus est : quies Christus est : Christe is thy banket : Christe is thy thought : Christe is thy ioie : Christe is thy desire : Christe is thy readinge : Christe is thy reate . Likewise S. Ambrose , Ambros . De Virginib . Lib. 2. In animis vestris quotidiè pro Redemptione Corporis Christus offertur : In your mindes Christe is daily offered for the Redemption of the Body .

And to passe ouer others , Faithe Eateth . for that it pleaseth M. Hardinge , to make himselfe sutche mirthe with Imaginations , Euthymius a Gréeke Authour writing pourposely of this mater , saith thus , Euthymi . in Iohan. Cap 9. Non oportet simpliciter ea intueri , sed aliud quiddam imaginari , & interioribus oculis ea perspicere , tanouam Mysteria : Wee maie not sooke barely vpon these thinges , ( that is , vpon the Breade and Wine ) but muste thereof imagine somme other mater , and behold the same with our in warde Spiritual eies , as it is meete to beholde Mysteries .

And leaste M. Hardinge shoulde saie , This Imagination is vaine , and fantastical , as is the greatteste parte of his Religion , Augu. Epist. 117. S. Augustine saith , Magis sunt illa , quae intelligimus , quàm ista , quae cernimus : The thinges , that wee vnderstande , ( or imagine by Faithe ) are more certaine , then the thinges , that wee see with our eies .

Neither maie you thinke , M. Hardinge , that these thinges beinge graunted , the Ministration of the Holy Supper woulde be superfluous . For these twoo Kindes of Eatinge muste euermore necessarily be ioined togeather . And who so euer commeth to the Holy Table , & auaunceth not his Minde vnto Heauen , there to feede vpon Christes Body at the Right hande of God , he knoweth not the meaninge of these Mysteries , but is voide of vnderstandinge , as the Horse , or the Mule , and receiueth onely the bare Sacramentes to his Condemnation . Therefore the Mystical Supper of Christe , notwithstandinge this Doctrine , is not superfluous : But your Transubstantiation , your Real Presence , and a greate parte of this your idle talke is moste vaine , and moste superfluous .

But ye saie , Howe can Breade , and Wine bringe vs to the hope of Resurrection , or of Euerlasting Life ? and why maie not a man in like manner demaunde of you , Haw can a fewe Droppes of colde Water bringe vs to the hope of Resurrection ? If Water maie doo it , why maie not Breade , and Wine likewise doo it ?

Touchinge the Water , Basilius , De Sancto Baptismo . S. Basile saith , Baptismus est Potentia Dei ad Resurrectionem : Baptisme is the Power of God to Resurrection . Againe he saith , Resurrectionis Gratiam in Die Resurrectionis recipiamus : Vpon the Daie of Resurrection let vs receiue ( Baptisme , Hieronym . in 1. Cor. 15. whiche is ) the Grace of Resurrection . S. Hierome saith , Non solùm propter Remissionem Peccatorum Baptizamur , sed etiam propter Resurrectionem Carnis nostrae : Wee are Baptized , not onely for Remission of Sinnes , but also for the Resurrection of our Fleashe . And therefore the Greekes calle Baptisme 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Dionysius . Ca. 2. That is , the Weede of immortalitie .

Here , M. Hardinge , it were somme pointe of skil to shewe vs , howe so greate Power maie be in so litle Water . Howe be it , it is not the Water in déede , that woorketh the force of Resurrection , but the Bloude of Christe , that is Signified by the Water . Ambro. in Epist. ad Rom. Cap. 6. Ignatius ad Trallianos . And therefore S. Ambrose saithe , Baptismus Resurrectionis Pignus , & Imago est : Baptisme is the Pleadge , and Image of Resurrection . Likewise Ignarius , Credentes in Mortem eius , per Baptisma Participes Resurrectionis eius efficimur : Beleeuinge in the Death of Christe , by Baptisme wee are made Partakers of his Resurrection . The like wée saie of the Holy Supper . Neither is M. Hardinge hable to shewe vs any sufficient cause to the contrarie , but Wine or Breade maie haue this Power , as wel as Water . Of this whole mater wée shal speake hereafter more at large .

But if Breade , and Wine , as M. Hardinge saithe , haue no Power to woorke Resurrection , what Power then can his Accidentes , and emptie Fourmes haue to woorke the same ? For , touching the Body of Christe it selfe , his own Doctours could haue tolde him , that it enteth not into our Bodies . For thus it is noted , & published for sounde , and certaine Doctrine , vpon the Decrees : De Conse . Dist. ● . Tribus gradib . in Glossa . Certum est , quòd quàm citò Species teruntur dentibus , tam citò in Coelum rapitur Corpus Christi : It is certaine , Difference bitwene , &c. and out of doubte , that as soone as the Accidentes , or Fourmes are touched with the teethe , straight waie the Body of Christe is taken vp into Heauen .

Hereof wee maie reason thus : Christes Body is suddainely taken vp into Heauen , and is not receiued into our Bodies : and that , as it is noted here , is true , and certaine : The Breade , and Wine , by M. Hardinges Doctrine , are vtterly consumed , no parte of the Substance thereof remaining : There is nothing leafte there , but Fourmes , and Accidentes . Hereof it must needes folow , by this Doctrine , that the same bare Fourmes , & Accidentes haue Power to woorke our Resurrection . But it is wel knowen , and confessed in al Schooles , that the Substance is better , and woorthier , then is the Accidente . Therfore wée maie conclude , The Accidente may doo it : Ergo. the Substance maie mutche more doo it .

For the reste , M. Hardinge saithe , The Substance of the Breade is quite remoued : The roundenesse , and whitenesse are the Sacrament : The thinge thereof is of twoo sortes : The one conteined , and signified : the other signified , and not conteined . These Mystical fansies maie lie stil , vntil M. Hardinge by somme Authoriritie , other then his owne , haue proued them better . True it is , that M. Hardinge saithe , Bitwéene the Sacramente , and the thinge it selfe , that is to saie , bitwéene the Sacramente , and the Body of Christe represented by the Sacramente , there is great difference . For in déede , and verily , and in precise manner of speache , neither is Christes Body the Sacramente : nor is the Sacramente Christes Body .

S. Augustine saith , August . Epist 23. ad Bonifacium . as it is alleged before , Nisi Sacramenta similitudinem quandam earum rerum , quatum Sacramenta sunt , haberent , omninò Sacramenta non essent . Ex hac autem similitudine plaerunque rerum ipsarum nomina accipiunt . Itéque secundum quendam modum Sacramentum Corporis Christi , Corpus Christi est : Onlesse Sacramentes had a certaine likenesse of the thinges , wherof thei be sacramentes , without question thei were no Sacramentes . And in consideration of this likenesse , oftentimes they beare the names of the thinges them selues . Therefore after a certaine manner of speache ( and not otherwise ) the Sacramente of the Body of Christe , is Christes Body .

Hereof I haue written more at large , Articulo 21. as occasion was offered , in my Former Replie to M. Harding . S. Ambrose noting this difference , saith thus , Non iste Panis , qui vadit in ventrem : De Conse . dist. 2. Non iste . Sed Panis Vitae Aeternae , qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulci● : Not this Breade ( of the Sacrament ) that passeth into the belly : but ( the Body of Christe it selfe , whiche is ) the Breade of euerlastinge Life : whiche reliueth the Substance of our Soule , Rabanus , Lib. 1. Cap. 31. and is signified by the Sacramente . Rabanus Maurus saithe , Aliud est Sacramentum , aliud vis Sacramenti . Sacramentum in Corporis alimentum redigitur : Virtute Sacramenti aeternae Vitae dignitas adipiscitur : The Sacramente is one thinge : The Power of the Sacramente is an other thinge . The Sacramente is changed into the foode , or norishemente of the Body : by the vertue of the Sacramente is gotten the dignitie of euerlastinge Life . Chryso . in Matthae . Homil. 11. Likewise S. Chrysostome , In Sacris Vasis , non ipsum Corpus Christi , sed Mysterium Corporis eius continetur : In the Holy Vessels is conteined , not the Very Body of Christe it selfe , but a Mysterie , or Sacramente of his Body .

So greate difference there is bitwéene the Sacramente & the Body of Christe . The Sacramente passeth into the Belly : Christes Body passeth into the Soule . The Sacramente is vpon Earthe : Christes Body is in Heauen . The Sacramente is corruptible : Christes Body is glorious . The Sacramente is the Signe : Christes Body is the thinge Signified . For wante of this distinction M. Hardinge wandreth blindely in the darke , he knoweth not whither . Therefore S. Augustine saith , August . De Doctrina Christiana , Lib. 3. Cap. 5. speaking purposely hereof , Ea demum est miserabilis animae seruitus , Signa pro rebus accipere : This is a miserable bondage of the s●ule , to take the Signes in steede of the thinges , that he signified .

Whether , and in what sense the wicked maie be saide to eate the Body of Christe , it shal be discussed hereafter more at large .

As for M. Hardinges ordinarie Conclusion of Wreasting the Scriptures , and Holy Fathers : Of plaieinge false Lessons : of teachinge , as be saithe , horrible lies : and of subuertinge the people , with al other the like furniture , wee wil leaue it freely , and wholy vnto the Authour .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 2.

To this Banket wee thinke the People of God ought to be earnestly bidden , that they maie al Communicate emonge them selues , and openly declare , and testifie bothe the godly Societie , whiche is emonge them , and also the hope , whiche they haue in Christe Iesu . For this cause , if there had benne any , whiche woulde be but a looker on , and abstaine from the holy Communion , him did the Olde Fathers , and Bishoppes of Rome in the Primitiue Churche , before Priuate Masie came vp , excommunicate , as a wicked person , & as a Pagans . Neither was there any Christian at that time , whiche did Communicate alone , whiles other looked on . For so did Calixtus in times paste decree , that after the Consecration was finished , al should Communicate , excepte they had rather stande without the Churche doores . For thus ( saithe he ) did the Apostles appointe , and the same the Holy Churche of Rome keepeth stil .

M. Hardinge .

Let this Banket be dight as it ought to bee : let the best dishe be made readie in due sorte , whiche is the very Bodie of our Sauiour Christe : let the ghestes be tolde what is set before them at that Holy Table : let them be taught to beleue rightly , to proue , and prepare themselues , as behoueth : then we thinke it moste conuenient the people of God be bidden thereto , not thereby to Communicate amonge themselues onely , but also , and rather to Communicate with God , to be incorporate in Christe , and to be made Partakers of al the benefites of God procured to man by the Deathe of his Sonne suffered in that Body , whiche at this highe Feaste they Eate . This Banket beinge thus set foorthe , if some deuoute persons thinke them selues for good causes vnwoorthy to assaie thereof , Deuoute lookers on , doo Spiritually Communicate . and to receiue that heauenly foode Sacramentally , findinge them selues not so wel prepared , as S. Paule requireth in that behalfe , yet for loue of it desire to be presente , and beholde that Table , and spiritually to taste of that healthful Dishe by Faithe , Charitte , Praier , and feruent Deuotion , wherein they doo not wholy absteine from the Holy Communion : sutche * * Vntruthe . For the Catholique Fathers Condemned them . are not to be condemned as idle lookers on for so yee make them , nor to be driuen out of the Church . Neither did euer the Olde Fathers , and Bishops of Rome in the Primitiue Churche ( saye what ye wil Defenders ) excommunicate them : mutche lesse did they repute them for Vntruthe . For S. Chrysostome calleth them impudentes , & improbos : Ad [ ●phes . Homil 3. wicked Persons and Paganes . And A A Vntruthe , coldely auouched . Reade the Answeare . not seldome the Priesteat the Masse ( whiche for this respecte with vnreasonable noueltie ye terme Priuate ) when none other were disposed to receiue with him Sacramentally , Calixtus alleaged for Anacletus . The Defenders require more of the Catholikes then they performe them selues . The place of Anaclet● discussed . but Spiritually onely , hath receiued alone the Holy thinges , which he hath offered .

Neither the Decree of Anacletus , whiche ye beinge deceaued by Gratian B B Vntruthes three togeather : As shal appeare . vntruely father vpon Calixtus , requireth that al the people present shoulde Communicate with the Prieste at the Masse . Whiche thinge ye shoulde not haue obiected to the Churche , seeinge that it is not obserued by your owne Newe order in your Congregations . Reade the Epistle of Anacletus , from whence this Decree is taken , and your selues wil confesse the same . That Holy Father and Martyr prescribeth the Order whiche he would to be kepte , when Bishoppes , or Priestes saye Masse : Whiche was , that it be done in places consecrated to God , that a Bishop at his Masse haue witnesses with him moe then an other Prieste . In the B B Vntruthe three togeather : As shal appeare . solemne Feastes he requireth Seuen , Fiue , or three Deacons , likewise Subdeacons , and other Ministers , al cloathed in hallowed Vestimentes to attende vppon him , to stande of euery side of him with a contrite harte , The beste Disshe . and humble Spirite lookinge downewarde , kepinge him from malicious menne , This Commaundemens of receiuing the Communion geuen by Anacket● perteineth only to the Ministers of the Church in solemne Feastes . geuinge consente to his Sacrifice . Thus muche beinge declared in that Epistle , it foloweth immediatly , Peracta autem Consecratione , &c. And when the Consecration is ended , let them al Communicate , that wil not be kepte without the Churche doores . For so the Apostles haue ordeined , and the Holy Churche of Rome obserueth . Who seeth not this request of receiuinge the Communion to be referred * * Vntruthe . plaine and manifest . Reade the Answeare . to the Priestes , Deacons , Subdeacons , and other Ministers in solemne feastes , seruinge the Bishop at Masse ? For in that place Anacletus speaketh neuer a woorde expressely of the Lay people . Therefore ye deceiue the vnlearned reader with a lie .

For the better vnderstandinge of this Decree , specially whereas Anacletus alleageth the Apostles ordinaunce for the same , ninthe Canon of the Apostles is to be considered : In whiche they require * * Vntruthe , For in the Apostles Canons it is written thus , Quicunque Fideles ingrediuntur in Ecclesiam , &c. Canone . 10. euery Ecclesiastical person to be partaker of the Sacrifice , that is offered , or to be excluded from the Communion : See the 9. Canon of the Apostles onelsse he shewe iuste cause for the contrary . The reason whereof in that Canon expressed is this : Leaste Clearkes absteininge from the Communion should be occasion of offence to the people , and thereby raise an euil suspicion against him . that sacrificed , as though he had not made the Oblation as it ought to be .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Let this Banket be deight , saithe M. Hardinge , as it ought to be : Let the beste Disshe be made ready . Good Christian Reader , the best , the wholesomest , the moste pleasant , and most Comfortable disshe at this Table , is the Death of Christe , that Lambe of God , that hath taken awaie the Sinnes of the worlde . Thus Christe him selfe , the Maister of this Feaste , hath willed vs to dresse this Dinner : Doo this , saith he , in Remembraunce of me . Likewise S. Paule , As often as ye shal eate of this Breade , and Drinke of this Cuppe , 1. Corinth. 11. ye shal shewe foorthe , and publishe the Lordes Deathe , vntil be comme .

This Banket therefore is not the outwarde , or bare Sacramente , but Christes very Body , and Bloude , which are represented vnto vs by the Sacramente : And , as it is before alleged out of S. Ambrose , De Con. Dist. 2. Non iste . Hieronym . ad Hedibiam . It is not the Breade ( of the Sacramente ) that passeth into the belly , but the Breade of Euerlastinge Life , whiche reliueth the Substance of the Soule . Therefore S. Hierome saithe , Iudaicas fabulas repellamus , & Ascendamus cum Domino in Coenaculum magnum stratum , atque mundatum , & accipiamus ab eo sursum Calicem Noui Testamenti : Lette vs abandonne from vs Iewishe Fables , and set vs Ascende vp with our Lorde into Heauen , into that great parlar dreste , and made cleane : and there aboue let vs receiue of him the Cuppe of the Newe Testamente . Cyprian . De Coena Domini . In this sense S. Cyprian saithe , Vident haec Sacramenta Pauperes Spiritu , & hoc Vno contenti Ferculo , omnes huius mundi delicias aspernantur : & possidentes Christum , aliquam huius mundi possidere supellectilem dedignantur : The poore in Sprite see these Sacramentes , and beinge contented with this Onely Disshe , they despise al other the deinty fares of the worlde : and hauinge possession of Christe , they disdeigne to possesse any worldly Substance . In like sorte speakinge of the Birthe of Christe , he saithe thus : Cyprian De Natiuitate Christi . Ea quae licita sunt , & concessa , tangamus : & circa incunabula Saluatoris Prima Infantiae eius Fercula degustemus : Let vs touche those thinges , that be lawful for vs to touche : and standinge aboute the Cradle of our Saueoure , set vs taste of the Firste Disshe of his Childehoode . August . in Psalmum . 57. Likewise saithe S. Augustine , Coecus interiùs Panem Christum non videt . Et beatus est ? Hoc non dicit , nisi Pariter Coecus : He that is blinde in his harte within , seethe not Christe , that is our Breade . And is he blessed ? Noman wil so saie , onlesse it be one as blinde , as he .

But what manner of Feaste is it , that M. Hardinge prepareth for the people ? How is it seasoned ? how is it dreste ? Firste , by very vncourteous , and vnciuile dealinge , he withdraweth the one halfe , that is , the Cuppe of the Newe Testament , and reserueth it seuerally to him selfe : & yet woulde make the people beléeue , they haue the whole . Priuate Masse . And thus doothe he , when he hath greattest companie to Suppe with him , and when his feaste is beste furnished . Otherwise he suffereth his gheastes to stande aluffe , and he consumeth al his prouision him selfe alone . Neither in déede hath he any thinge to set before them , sauinge onely a colde surcharge of dead Shewes , and doumbe Ceremonies . The poore people heareth nothinge , Understandeth nothinge , Eateth nothinge , Drinketh nothinge , Tasteth nothinge : They publishe not the Lordes Deathe : They knowe not the Lordes Supper .

To sutche a Banket Pasetes the Iuggler vsed sometimes to calle his frendes . Suidas . There was a greate shewe of varietie , and plenetie of al manner of Meates , and Drinkes , the table fulle . But when any of the gheastes would haue touched any thinge , it vanished suddainely awaie , and was turned to nothinge . And so , when their eies were ful , they put vp theire kniues , and rose ahungred . Euen thus M. Hardinge féedeth , and feasteth the people of God , with Shewes and Ceremonies , and suffereth them in the meane while to sterue for hungre . Euen as the Prophete saithe , It shal be like the dreame of a hungrie man . Beholde he eateth , and maketh mery : But when he is awakte , Esai . 29. his soule is emptie .

Good menne , saithe M. Hardinge , withdrawe them selues , and are contented to be presente onely , & to stande by : but receiue not the Sacramente . But Chrysostome saithe to sutche a good deuoute man . Chrysost. ad Ephes. Homil. 3. If thou stande by , and doo not Communicate , thou arte wicked , thou arte shamelesse , thou arte impudente . Thou wilte saie , I am vnwoorthy to be partaker of the Holy Mysteries . Impudens . Improbus . Then arte thou vnvoorthy to be partaker of the Praiers . Thou maiste no more stande here , then an Heathen , that neuer was Christened .

Here , gentle Reader , maiste thou sée , a marueilous change in the Churche of God . The thinge , that in olde times was coumpted Heathenishe , Impudencie , and Wickednesse , is nowe by M. Hardinges Newe Diuinitie becomme Godlinesse , and greate Deuotion .

But , Not Seldome . God wote , here foloweth a very colde Asseueration . Not Seldome , ye saie , the Prieste at the Masse , whan none other were disposed , receiued alone . O M. Hardinge , the worlde wel seethe , your woorde is no Gospel . It appeareth by your so many Vntruthes , ye care not greately , what you saie . Thus yée tel vs , Not Seldome the Prieste receiued alone . Not Seldome ? what is that ? why speake you so nicely ? what meaneth this colde , and doubteful eloquence , specially in him , that otherwise hath acquainted his voice to speake so bigge ? why saie you not , The Prieste vsed daiely , and commonly so to doo ? Or if yée coulde not auouche so great Vntruthe for very shame , why saide you not , The Prieste oftentimes , or at some certaine times receiued alone : at the leaste at foure , or three , or twoo sundrie times , within the space of sixe hundred yéeres ? At the woorste , if yee had saide , but Once , it had benne somwhat . As for , Not seldomme , it is too base : it is too simple : it disgraceth the whole course of your pleadinge , and in plaine speache soundeth , as mutche , as Neuer . It had rather benne your parte , takinge vpon you this countenance of credite , and grauitie , to haue tolde vs Substantially , and plainely , what manner of man this Prieste was : where he dwelte : what was his name : when , and where , and in what Companie he saide this Masse : who sawe it : who hearde it : who bare witnesse to it : by what Recorde , or Authoritie it maie be proued . The matter beinge so great , and of sutche Antiquitie , is there noman leafte behinde , to witnesse the same , but M. Hardinge ? In your Former Answeare ye bringe vs in Boies , Girles , Sicke folke , Laie people , and Wemen : and vpon sutche groundes ye sticke not to founde your Priuate Masse . And doubtelesse these examples might haue seemed to stande you in somme prety stéede , yf in those daies Boies , Anacletus Calixtus . and Wemen had benne Priestes . For Prieste , or Bishop , that euer receiued the Sacrament alone , in the Churche , before the people , ye are not yet hable to shewe vs one . As for your Leontius , and Amphilochius , & S. Basiles Masse at Midnight , and other like folies , and fables , it seemeth by the silence , ye vse in your late Reioinder , ye are contented wisely , and quietly to geue them ouer .

Yee saie , wee are deceiued by Gratian , and haue placed Calixtus in steede of Anacletus . Here firste of al , ye confesse , that Gratian your greate Rabbin , the Father , and Fountaine of your Decrees might be deceiued . And verily sutche plainenesse in dealinge , if ye would vouchesaue to vse it oftener , were woorthy of some commendation . For in déede your Gratian , as he was a man of great readinge , and smal iudgement , so he allegeth oftetimes , he knoweth not what : Hierome for Origen : Cyprian for Augustine : Beda for Ambrose : Iuuencus for Vincentius : Greeke for Latine : Newe for Olde . As for this authoritie , wherein you saie , De Con. Dist. 1. Episcopus . De Con. Dist. 2. Peracta . wee are deceiued , he allegeth it in twoo sundrie places : firste vnder the name of Anacletus : nexte vnder the name of Calixtus : meaninge , I trowe , yf there were errour in the one , at leaste to redresse it by the other . Therefore , M. Hardinge , yf ye had looked better vpon your Booke , what so euer opinion ye haue of your Gratian , ye should haue founde , that wée were nothinge deceiued . Haw be it , your Gratian , in steede of one errour , hath made twoo . For in deede , as it is true , that these woordes were neuer written by Calixtus : so of the other side it is likewise true , they were neuer written by Anacletus : but were manifestly forged , and falsified by others , that folowed afterwarde : Artic. 4. Diui. 3. as in my Former Replie I haue declared more at large .

But it is a world to see , what wiles , & shiftes these menne can finde , to beare out erroure . Firste , ye saie , these woordes were spoken of the Priestes , Deacons , & Subdeacons , seruinge the Prieste at Masse vpon Solemne Feastes . Pardonne me , M. Hardinge , to saie the Truthe . For verily , notwithstandinge this solemne tale , it seemeth , ye knowe not , what ye saie . For it maie please you to remember , that your Anacletus , whose forged Authoritie ye haue alleged , was Bishop in Rome in the time of S. Peter , shortely vpon the Deathe of Christe , when the Churche was euerywhere vnder persecution , & ful of Bloude . Nowe , I praie you , who euer tolde you , either of any office , that your Subdeacons had in the Holy Ministerie , or of any greate highe Holy Daies , of Duplex , or magis Duplex , or principal Solemne Feastes in the Churche of God in al that time ? Maye wee thinke , that the Blessed Virgins , and the Apostles daies were keapte Highe and Holy , while the same Blessed Virgin , and Apostles were yet aliue ? Though ye had none other regarde , either to God , or to your selfe , yet shame shoulde force you , to foresee more aduisedly , what yée saie .

But your greattest folie appeareth in the shiftinge , & glostnge of these woordes . For you saie , this Calixtus , or Anacletus speaketh onely of the Priestes , the Deacons , and the Subdeacons : and neuer a woorde expressely of the Laie people : and therefore ye saie , w●e deceiue the vnlearned Reader with a lie . Touchinge your vncourteous speache , I weigh it none otherwise , but as it is . The Truthe wil be hable euermore to beare it selfe . But that these woordes of Anacletus , or Calixtus , touche not the Laie people , but onely the Priestes , and the Ministers , the very Gloser him selfe was neuer , either so vnskilful , or so impudent , so to saie . For , whereas the woordes be these , Let them al Communicate , onlesse they wil be remoued out of the Churche , he setteth there to this Exposition , Hoc antiquum est : Nam hoc hodiè relictum videtur arbitrio cuiuslibet : De Con. Dist. 2. Peracta . In Glossa . This was the olde manner : For nowe adaies it is free for euery man to doo therein , what he wil .

The like Decree is founde vnder the name of the Apostles Canons : Quicunque fideles ingrediuntur in Ecclesiam , Anacletus Calixtus . & Scripturas audiunt , non autem persuerant in Oratione , Canon . Apostol. Canon . 10. nec Sanctam Communionem percipiunt , velut qui ordinis perturbationem commouent , ab Ecclesiae Communione arceri conuenit : As many ( not onely of the Priestes , and Ministers , but ) of the Faitheful , as comme into the Churche , and heare the Scriptures , but continewe not out the Praiers , nor receiue the Holy Communion , let them be put from the Communion of the Churche , as menne that woorke the breache of Order . Likewise it is noted in the Margin vpon the same Canons , Canon . Apost. Can. 9. In Margine . Omnes olim , qui intererant . Communicabant : In olde times al , that were presente , did Communicate . In the Councel of Antioche it was decreed thus : Omnes , qui ingrediuntur in Ecclesiam Dei , Concil. Antiochen . Can. 2. & Sacras Scripturas audiunt , auersantur autem perceptionem Dominici Sacramenti , &c. ab Ecclesia abijci oportet , &c. Al , that comme into the Churche of God , Concil. Aquisgran . Cap. 70. and heare the Holy Scriptures , and refuse the receiuinge of the Lordes Sacramente , let them be put from the Churche . These Decrees reache not onely to the Ministers of the Churche , but also to the whole people .

Clemens that was Bishop in Rome , Clemens Epist. 2. as it is thought , nexte after this Anacletus , saithe thus , Tanta in Altario Holocausta offerantur , quanta populo sufficere debeant : Let so many loues be offered at the Aultar , as maie suffise to serue , ( not onely the Ministers , but also ) the People .

S. Ambrose saithe , Munus oblatum totius populi fit : quia in vno Pane omnes significantur . Ambros . in 1. Corinth. 1● . Per idem enim , quòd vnum sumus , de vno Pane omnes sumere oportet : The oblation offered is made the whole peoples : for that in one Breade al are signified . For in that wee are al one , wee must al receiue of one Breade .

S. Chrysostome saithe vnto the people , Neque nos abundantiùs , vos autem minùs , de Sacra Mensa participamus : Chrysostom . in 2. Thessal . Homi. 4. Sed pariter , & ex aequo illam vtrique degustamus : ●● either doo wee receiue more , and you lesse of the Holy Table : but wee taste thereof equally bothe togeather . The like might be alleged out of S. Hierome , S. Augustine , Dionysius , and others .

But for as mutche as ye so bitterly tel vs , that wée misconstrue these woordes of Anacletus , and deceiue the vnlearned Reader with a lie , maie it therefore please you farther to heare , what your owne late Scholastical Doctours haue written , and iudged in this behalfe .

Thomas of Aquine saithe , In Primitiua Ecclesia , quando magna vigebat deuotio Fidei Christianae , statutum fuit , vt Fideles quotidiè Communicarent : In the Primitiue Churche , when greate Deuotion of the Christian Faithe was in strength , it was ordeined , that the Faitheful should receiue the Communion euery daie . Durandus saithe , In Primitiua Ecclesia omnes Fideles quotidiè Communicabant : Durandus in Rational . Li. 4. Cap. 55. In the Primitiue Churche al the Faitheful daiely receiued the Communion . Hugo Cardina in Luc. Cap. 24. Hugo Cardinalis saithe , In Primitiua Ecclesia omnes , quotquot intererant Canoni Missae , singulis diebus Communicabant . Et , si nollent communicare , egrediebantur post Offertorium : In the Primitiue Churche , as many as were presente at the Canon of the Masse , did daiely Communicate : and if they woulde not , they departed foorthe after the Offertorie .

If ye thinke , these authorities are not sufficient , Iohan. Cochlae . Contra Muscul . De Sacrificio . Iohannes Cochlaeus saithe , Omnes olim , tum Sacerdotes , tum Laici , cum Sacrificante Communicabant , sicut ex Canonibus Apostolorum , & ex Libris antiquissimorum Ecclesiae Doctorum perspicuè cognoscitur . Hic vnicum hac de re Canonem recitabo , qui Calixto adscribitur : Peracta , &c. In olde times bothe al the Priestes , and al the Laie people receiued the Communion with the Minister , that had made the Oblation : as it is plainely perceiued by the Canons of the Apostles , and by the Bookes of the Ancient Doctours of the Churche . One Canon hereof I wil allege written by Calixtus : &c. Likewise saithe Iudocus Clichthoueus , In Primitiua Ecclesia Fideles quotidiè sumebant Communionem , In. Clichthoueut in Canon . Missae . secundum illam Calixit sanctionem , Peracta , &c. In the Primitiue Churche the Faitheful receiued the Communion euery daie , accordinge to this Decree of Calixtus : &c.

Here you maie sée , not onely , that these woordes are alleged by your owne Doctours , vnder the name of Calixtus , wherein you haue noted so greate an errour , but also that the same woordes , by the iudgement of the same Doctours , are thought to perteine no lesse to the Laie people , then to the Prieste .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , these thinges considered , I referre the indifferent iudgement hereof to your owne knowledge , and Conscience , whether of vs twoo hath deceiued the Reader with a lie .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 3.

More ouer , when the People commeth to the holy Communion , the Sacrament ought to be geuen them in Bothe Kindes : for so bothe Christe hath commaunded , and the Apostles in euery place haue ordeined , and al the Ancient Fathers and Catholique Bishoppes haue folowed the same . And who so doothe contrarie to this , he ( as Gelasius saithe ) D● Consec . Dist. & Comperio●●s . committeth Sacrilege . And therefore wee saie , that our Aduersaries at this daie , who hauinge violently thruste out , and quite forebidden the Holy Communion , doo without the woorde of God , without the Authoritie of any Ancient Councel , without any Catholique Father , without any Example of the Primitiue Churche , yea and without reason also , defende , and maineteine their Priuate Masses , and the manglinge of the Sacramentes , and doo this not onely against the plaine expresse Commaundemente of Christe , but also againste al Antiquitie , doo wickedly therein , & are very Churcherobbers .

M. Hardinge .

Softe , and fayre , Maisters . Ye shewe more heate then witte , more stomake then learninge , more anger then reason . Ye saie muche , and prooue little . But saie ye , and saie againe , what ye wil : we tel you boldely , Communion vnder both kindes not commaunded expressely by Christe , nor ordeined by the Apostles . that * * Vntruthes three togeather boldely presumed . neither Christe euer commaunded , * nor the Apostles ordeined , * nor al the Ancient Fathers obserued , that the Sacrament be geuen to the people none otherwise , but vnder bothe Kindes onely . If Christe had expressely commaunded it , the Churche ( of Rome ) had not so longe time receiued , and kepte the vse of one Kinde . The Apostles , and sundry Holy Fathers Ministred bothe Kindes : we confesse . That the one Kinde was not also by them Ministred , and that it is vtterly vnlawful , we denie , † † To prooue a Negatiue , it is a folie . But you shal neuer proue the Affirmatiue . and the same shal ye neuer be able to proue . Touchinge this whole pointe , and how litle , that ye alleage out of Celasius , maketh for you , and concerninge Masse not to be omitted for lacke of Companie , to communicate Sacramentally with the Prieste : * * Certainely yenough . For in the same twoo Articles ye haue vttered threescore and foure greate Vntruthes . I haue saide yuongh in my answeare to your fellowe M. Iuel his chalenge . Bringe ye other stuffe , and better then this , or els al the worlde wil see your haltinge , and the feblenesse of your side . An vnshamefaste and sclaunderouse lie . That we haue violently thruste out , and quite forbidden the Holy Communion , onlesse ye meane your owne Schismaticall , mutable , and polluted Communion , if there were any sparke of shame , or harted of liynge in you , ye woulde neuer impute it vnto vs . God dothe knowe , and the Worlde is not vnwittinge , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , so sensible , and so grosse , that a man maie feele it with his fingers . how muche , howe often , and how earnestly the Catholike Churche exhorteth her Children to prepare themselues , to receiue their * * Vntruthe . No Learned Father euer called the Sacramente his God , or Maker . Maker . And though the people of Englande of late yeeres resorted not commonly thereto , yet the deuotion of Christen folke in this Countrie of base Almaigne , in Fraunce , in Italy , in Spaine , and in sundrie other Christen Prouinces , is so feruent in frequentinge the Holy Communion , as if ye sawe it , ye would be ashamed of your sclaunderous reporte . Let wise men , and good men iudge , whether we be Churcherobbers , or ye vnshamefaste liers .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Where nothinge is answeared , it were not amisse , to replie nothinge . If M. Hardinge can onely vouchesaue , to calle vs sclaund●rous Reporters , ● vnshamefast Liers : Institution in Bothe Kindes . and the Lordes Supper a Schismatical , Mutable , pollutted Communion , it is sufficient : the mater needeth no farther proufe . To this whole matter , M. Hardinge saithe , He hath sufficiently answeared M. Iewel . He hath answeared , I graunte : but how sufficiently , the mater it selfe wil declare . How be it , he maie not in any wise forgeate , that in the same twoo shorte Treaties to M. Jewel , conteininge onely twoo and fourtie litle leaues of Paper , he hath sente vs ouer , and published threescore and foure notable , and greate Vntruthes : whereof , I thinke , he hath no greate cause so mutche to glorie .

He saithe , That the Sacramente shoulde be deliuered to the peple in bothe kindes , neither Christe euer commaunded it , nor the Apostles euer ordeined it . Thus M. Hardinge saithe , onely bicause it liketh him thus to saie . Yet this owne Catholique Doctours , & the Chiefe Champions of that side saie far otherwise . De Miss. Publica Proroganda . Gerardius Lorichius saithe , Ipsius Sacramenti Institutio vult , vt Omnes vnà manducemus , & bibamus : The very Institution of the Sacramente it selfe willeth , that wee Eate , and Drinke al togeather . And Ruardus Tapper the Deane of Louaine saithe thus : Cassander 〈◊〉 Viraque Specie , Pa. 29. Habito respectu ad Sacramentum , eiusque perfectionem , magis conueniret , sub Vtraque specie fieri Communionem , quàm sub Altera tantùm . Hoc enim magis consonum est eius Institutioni , & integritati , & refectioni Corporali : imò & Exemplo Christi , & Patrum Primitiuae Ecclesiae : Consideration had vnto the Sacramente , and to the perfection of the same , it were more conuenient , that the Communion were Ministred vnder Bothe Kindes , then vnder One alone . For this were more agreable to the Institution , and fulnesse thereof , and to the outwarde refection of the Body : Yea and to the Example bothe of Christe , and also of the Fathers of the Primitiue Churche .

Certainely these woordes of Christe , Drinke ye al of this : Doo this in my Remembrance , are very plaine woordes of commaundemente , and Institution . Therefore Chrysostome saithe , Et in Pane , Chrysost. in . 1. Corin. Homi. 27. & in Calice Christus dixit , Hoc facite in meam Commemorationem : Christe bothe in the Breade , and also in the Cuppe saide , Doo this in Remembrance of mee . Likewise Theophylactus , Tremendus Calix pari cunctis conditione traditus est : Theophylact. 1. Corinth . 11. Paschasius . The Reuerende Cuppe is in equal manner deliuered to al. And , whereas Christe saithe , Drinke ye al of this , Paschasius , to make the mater the plainer , putteth thereto these woordes : Tam Ministri , quàm reliqui Credentes : As wel the Ministers , as the reste of the Faitheful . In like manner S. Augustine saithe , De Con. Dist. 2. Quia Passus . Simul hoc sumimus : simul bibimus : quia simul viuimus : Wee receiue togeather : Wee drinke togeather : bicause we liue togeather .

Notwithstandinge any Promisse of Constancie , made to the contrarie , yet , I truste , M. Hardinge of his courtesie wil beleeue , either S. Chrysostome , or S. Augustine , or Theophylacte , or Paschasius , or Lorichius , or Tapper , or his Newe Doctours , or the Olde , or his owne , or others . Otherwise , if he be fully determined to beleeue noman , it is reason , that noman beleeue him .

Perhaps he wil saie , Notwithstandinge Christes woordes be plaine , yet they are not of force sufficient , to binde vs for euer . For so writeth Cardinal Cusanus , Scripturae ad tempus adaptantur , Nicola . Cusanus Epist. 2. ad Bohaemos . & variè intelliguntur : ita vt vno tempore secundum currentem Ecclesiae ritum exponantur : mutato verà ritu , iterum sententia mutetur : The Scriptures are applied to the states of diuers times , and so are taken in diuers senses : So that at one time they are expounded accordinge to the currente order of the Churche : But the order of the Churche beinge changed , the sense of the Scripture is like wise changed . So S. Augustine saithe of the Heretiques the Manichees : Expendunt ista , August . contra Epist. Parmeniani . Lib. 3 Cap. 2 Hilar. De Trinitaae , Lib. 9. non in statera aequa Diuinarum Scripturarum , sed in statera dolosa Consuetudinum suarum : They weighe these maters , not in the equal balance of the Diuine Scriptures , but in the deceiteful Balance of their owne Customes . Of the like sorte of Her●tiques S. Hilarie saith , Qui ea , quae Scripta sunt , negas , quid testat , nisi vt ea , quae non scripta sunt , credas ? Seeinge thou deniest the thinges , that be written in the Scriptures , what remaineth there , but that thou must beleeue sutche thinges , as be not written in the Scriptures ?

But where haue these menne the Institution of theire Halfe Communion ? Who ordeined it ? Who commaunded it ? What Apostle , what Ancient Doctour , what Holy Father euer vsed it ? M. Hardinge . Pag. 48. b. Leo , Sermon . 4. De Quadragesima . M. Hardinge him selfe is forced to confesse , by the reporte of Leo , that the Firste knowen Diuisers , & Authours of it , were the olde Heretiques called the Manichees . Sutche is the Institution , and Antiquitie of their Doctrine . It sprange firste of Heresie , and was founded by Heretiques .

Touchinge Gelasius , I haue already in my Former Replie saide so mutche , as then vnto me seemed sufficient . The woordes be plaine yenough of them selfe , and neede no Commentarie : De Co●s . Dist. 2. Comperimus . Aut integra Sacramenta percipiant , aut ab integris a●ceantur . Quia diuisio vnius eiusdemque Mysterij sine grandi sacrilegio non potest peruenire : Either let them receiue the whole Sacramentes ( in Bothe Kindes : ) or els let them be driuen from the whole .

Farther M. Hardinge saithe , God doothe knowe , how mutche , howe often , and how earnestly the Catholique Churche exhorteth her Children , to prepare them selues to receiue their Maker . O M. Hardinge , why should you so fondely mocke the world with so manifest folies ? By what woordes , by what examples exhorte you them ? When euer saide you , as Chrysostome saith vnto the people ? Chrysostom . ad Popul . Antioch . Homil. 61. In Epist ad Ephes. Homul . 3. Departe yée hence : yée haue nomore right to stande here , then Heathens , & Infidelles : yée are Wicked : ye are shamelesse : ye are Impudente , that stande by , & wil not Communicate . And if the Catholique Churche doo so often , & so earnestly exhorte her Children , how is it then , that the Pope , & his Cardinalles doo so seldome Communicate , scarcely once through the yéere ? Maie wée thinke , that the Pope , & his Cardinalles be not the Children of the Churche ?

Laste of al , ye saie , ye exhorte the people to receiue their Maker I beseche you , M. Hardinge , what Scripture , what Father , what Doctour euer taught you thus to saie ? The Sacramente is a Sacramente : it is not God . It is the Breade of our Lorde , August . in Iohannem , tract . 59. Chrysost. in Iohan . Homil. 3. as S. Augustine saithe : it is not our Lorde . It is a Creature corruptible : it is not the Maker of Heauen , and Earthe . Accursed is he , that geueth the name , and glorie of God vnto a Creature , that is no God . S. Chrysostome saithe , Nolimus quaeso Creatorem cum Creatura confundere : Ne illud audiamus , Seruierunt Creaturae potiùs , quàm Creatori : Let vs not confounde the Creature , and the Creatour bothe togeather : Leste it be saide of vs , They haue honoured a Creature more then their Maker .

The Apologie , Cap. 13. Diuision . 1.

Wee affirme that Breade and Wine are holy and heauenly Mysteries of the Body and Bloude of Christe , and that by them Christe him selfe , beinge the true Breade of Eternal Life , is so presently geuen vnto vs , as that by Faithe wee verily receiue his Body and his Bloude . Yet saie wee not this so , as though wee thought , that the Nature and Substance of the Breade and Wine is clerely changed , and goeth to nothinge : as many haue dreamed in these later times , & yet could neuer agree emonge them selues vpon their owne dreames . For that was not Christes meaninge , that the wheaten Breade should laie aparte his owne Nature , and receiue a certaine newe Diuinitie : but that he might rather chaunge vs , and ( to vse Theophylactes woordes ) In Iohan. Ca. 6. De Sacr. Lib. 4. Cap. 4. might transfourme vs into his Body . For what can be saide more plainely , then that , whiche Ambrose saithe , Breade and Wine remaine stil the same , thei were before : and yet are changed into an other thinge : Or that whiche Gelasius saithe , The Substance of the Breade , Substance . Accidentes . or the Nature of the Wine ceaseth not to be : Or that , whiche Theodoretus saithe , After the Consecration , In Dialogis 1. & . 2. the Mystical Signes doo not caste of their owne propre Nature : for thei remaine stil in their Former Substance , Forme , & Kinde : Or that , whiche Augustine saith , In Sermon . ad Infantes . That , whiche ye see , is the Breade , & cuppe , & so our eies tel vs : but that , whiche your Faithe requireth to be taught , is this : The Bread is the Body of Christe , and the Cuppe is his Bloude : Or that , whiche Origen saithe : In Matth. Homil. 15. The Breade , whiche is sanctified by the woorde of God , as touchinge the material Substance thereof , goeth into the belly , and is caste out into the priuie : Or y● , whiche Christe him selfe saide , not onely after the blessinge of the Cuppe , but also after he had Ministred the Communion : I wil drinke nomore of this fruite of the Vine . It is wel knowen , that the fruite of the Vine is Wine , & not Bloude .

M. Hardinge .

In this Sacramente , What is that we cal holy and heauenly Mysteries . after Consecration , the Substance of Breade and Wine beinge tourned into the Substance of the Body and Bloude of Christe , the * * Vntruthe . No Doctour , or Father euer taught sutche vaine fo● lies . out warde Formes of Breade and Wine , whiche remaine , are the Sacramentes of Holy thinges , the Body and Bloude of Christe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

In euery natural thinge , twoo thinges are specially to be considered : the Substance , & the Accidente , or , as M. Hardinge calleth it , the outwarde Fourme . For example , In Breade , the Material thinge , that séedeth vs , and is changed into the Bloude , and nourrishement of our bodies , is called the Substance of the Breade : The whitenesse , the Roundenesse , the Thicknesse , the Swéetenesse , & other the like , that are perceiued outwardly by our senses , are called Accidentes . Now saithe M. Hardinge , for as mutche as the Substance of the Breade , & Wine is remooued by Consecration , & for that cause cannot be the Sacrament : therefore the Accidentes , and Fourmes , whiche remaine , muste needes be thought to be the Sacramentes . And so vpon a false Position , as shal appeare , he laieth the fundation of al his Doctrine : by the olde Rule , I trowe , that he learned sometimes in his Sophistrie , Ex Impossibili sequitur quodlibet : Of an Impossibilitie ye maie conclude , what ye liste : euen as aptely , and as truely , as somme haue saide , If Christe were not Christe , then Saincte Patrike shoulde be Christe .

If M. Hardinge had alleged , either Scripture , or Doctour , or Father , or Councel , or any other Authoritie biside his owne , he might happily haue benne beléeued .

To this whole fansie , gentle Reader , in my Former Replie , I haue made a seueral answeare . Verily Chrise saithe , Matthae . 26. Luc. 22. 1. Corinth. 10. 1. Corinth . 11. Cyprian in Oratio . Dominicam . Non bibam ex hoc fructu vitis : I wil nomore drinke , ( not of these Accidentes , but ) of this , generation , and fruite , ( and Substance ) of the Vine . S. Paule saithe , Panis , quem frangimus : ( Not the Fourmes , or Accidentes , but ) the Breade , that wee breake . And againe , Quoties manducabitis Panem hunc : As often as ye shal eate ( not these Accidentes , but ) this Breade . S. Cyprian saithe of the same , I anis ex multorum granorum adunatione congestus : Breade moulded , and made of many cornes . I doubte not , but M. Hardinge wil confesse , that cornes yéelde Flower , and Augustin . De Fide ad Petrum Ca. 19. Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 4. Cap. 24. Substance : and not onely Fourmes , and Accidentes . S. Augustine calleth the Holy Mysterie , Sacramentum Panis , & Vini : The Sacramente ( not of Fourmes , and Accidentes , as M. Hardinge saithe , but ) of Breade , and Wine , Cyrillus saith , Credentibus Discipulis fragmenta Panis dedit : Christe gaue vnto his Disciples beleeuinge in him , In , and By. peeces of Breade , ( not peeces of Accidentes ) .

But M. Hardinge , hauinge in his fantasie remoued the whole Substance of the Breade , in stéede thereof hath brought vs in Holy Fourmes , Holy Shewes , & Holy Accidentes . His Accidentes be the Mysteries of Heauenly thinges : His Accidentes be the Instrumentes of Goddes Grace : His Accidentes be the causes of Remission of Sinne . Wée breake Accidentes : Wée eate Accidentes : Wée drinke Accidentes . wée are fedde with Accidentes : The Substance of our Bodies is increased with Accidentes , And , to be shorte , he woorketh al his Miracles by the Power of his Accidentes .

M. Hardinge .

Why be ye so lothe to speake , The Defenders refuse to speake as the Church speaketh . as the Church speaketh , that in this blessed Sacrament we receiue the Body of Christe ? Why had ye rather saie after a * * Vntruthe . For this phrase is vsed commonly of the Ancient Fathers : as shal appeare . straunge manaer , that by Breade and Wine Christ him selfe is so presently geuen vnto vs , as that by Faithe we verely receiue his Body and his Bloud ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

I neuer thought , it had benne so great an Heresie , to speake , as the Apostles of Christe , & the Learned Doctours of the Churche haue spoken before vs . S. Paule saithe , Roman . 6. Coloss. 2. Hieronym . De Corp. & Sanguine Christi . Augustin . in Iohan . tracta . 50. Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 11. Cap. 27. Hilarius De Trinit. Lib. 8. Consepulti sumus cum Christo Per Baptismum in mortem : Wee are buried togeather with Christe By Baptisme vnto death . S. Hierome saith . Per Aquam Baptismi , vel per Ignem Spiritus Sancti Aeterni illius Panis Corpus efficitur : By the Water of Baptisme , or By the Fier of the Holy Ghoste , he is made the Body of the Euerlastinge Breade . S. Augustine saithe , Habes Christum in praesenti Per Fidem : In praesenti Per Baptismatis Sacramentum : In praesenti Per Altaris Cibum , & Potum : Thou haste Christe in Presence By Faithe : In Presence By the Sacrament of Baptisme : In Presence By the Meate , and Drinke of the Aultar . S. Cyril saithe , Corporaliter Filius Per Benedictionem Mysticam nobis vnitur , vt Homo : The Sonne of God By the Mystical Blessinge is vnited vnto vs , as Man . S. Hilarie saithe , Christus est in nobis Per Sacramentorum Mysterium : Christe is in vs By the Mysterie of the Sacramentes .

And , leste M. Hardinge shoulde thinke , to take any greate aduantage by these woordes thus vttered , as he , & others of his side haue often donne , S. Augustine in moste plaine wise expoundeth the same : Si ad ipsas res Visibiles , quibus Sacramenta tractantur , August . De Baptismo contra Donatist . Lib. 3. Cap. 10. animum conferamus , quis nesciat , eas esse corruptibiles ? Si autem ad id , quod Per illas res agitur , quis non videat , non posse corrumpi ? If wee beholde the Visible Creatures , ( as the Breade , the Wine , the Water ) wherein the Sacramentes are ministred , who seeth not , that they be corruptible ? But if wee consider the thinges , that are wrought thereby , who seeth not , that they cannot be corrupted ?

Now iudge thou , good Christian Reader , how Childishely these quarrelles be sought againste vs , without cause : & what Mystical Catholique eares M. Hardinge hath , that cannot abide the phrases , and speaches of the Anciente Fathers .

M. Hardinge .

If a man should presse you with your owne woordes , What Presence of Christe in the Sacrament doo the Defenders acknowledge . and demaunde , what maner of Presence ye teache , affirminge Christe him selfe presently to be geuen : I weene , ye would be founde haltinge . For how saie ye ? If Christe be presently geuen vnto vs by Breade and Wine in the Sacramente , then is Christe present . If he be present , whiche ye muste needes graunt , tell vs further , howe is he present : accordinge to the Substance of his Body , or by Grace , or accordinge to the Maiestie of his Godhed ? The first , what shiftes so euer ye seeke , ye wil not graunt . And therefore is your owne Apostle Martin Luther at fowle defiance with your maisters , Zuinglius , Occolampadius , Caluine , and you , and so be his Disciples , Ioachimus Westphalus , Epinus , Pomeran , He shusius , Brentius , Illyricus , and many others , as ye knowe . If ye wil saie , he is Present by his Grace , so is he Presente with al good men : and that not onely when the Sacrament is ministred , but also at al other times . Absente in Body . Againe , how can ye make good , that by Faithe we receiue his Body , and Bloud ? By Faith we receiue Grace , and the Merites of his Death suffered in his Body with sheddinge of his Bloud . But the Body and Bloude it selfe , that is , the very * * Vntruthes , two togeather . For properly , and in Substance , wee receiue it not . Reade the Answeare . Substance of his Body and Bloude : tel vs , how by Faithe ( * * Vntruthes , two togeather . For properly , and in Substance , wee receiue it not . Reade the Answeare . properly and truely to speake ) as who should sate by Faithe made Present , The Body of Christe not receiued by Faithe onely . we receiue it ? Furthermore ‡ ‡ We answeare , It is a peeuishe question . what haue ye to answeare to this question ? If wee receiue the Body and Bloud of Christe verely by Faithe ( for so ye saie ) we demaunde whether we receiue the same by Faithe onely without the Body , or with the office of our Body . If th office of our Body be required to the receiuinge of Christes Body in the Sacrament , as Christe him selfe * * Vntruthe . For Christe meante no suche thing , as appeareth by the Fathers . certainely meante ( for els how obeyed the Disciples his commaundement , to whome he saide at his Supper , Take and eate , this is my Body , likewise of the Cuppe , Take and drinke , whiche cannot be donne but by the seruice of the Body ) hereof then it foloweth , that his Body is verely present . Now that it is not receiued by Faithe onely , thus we proue it by your owne Doctrine : ‡ ‡ A Sophistical , and a childishe cauil . Reade the Answeare . It is so receiued ▪ as it is Present : but it is Present by Bread and Wine ( as ye saie , ) Ergo it is receiued by Bread and Wine . To conclude , if by Breade and Wine , then not by Faithe onely . Wil ye geue me leaue to saie , what I thinke of you ? Verely it seemeth by your vaine ianglinge , that as S. Paule saieth of suche other like you , ye vnderstande not , what ye speake , nor whereof ye affirme .

The B. of Sarisburie .

In what sense wée maie truely saie , Christe is either Presente with vs , or Absente from vs , the mater is not so doubteful , or dangerous to be answeared : onlesse M. Hardinge haue foregotten the Articles of his Créede . For thus wée are taught to beleue , Christe is Ascended into Heauen , and fitte that the Right Hande of God . Whiche Article S. Augustine expoundeth thus : August . Epist. 57. ad Dardan . Noli dubitare ibi nunc esse hominem Christum Iesum , vnde venturus est : memoriterque recole , & fideliter tene Christianam Confessionem , Quoniam Resurrexit à mortuis : Ascendit ad Coelum : Sedet ad Dextram Patris : nec aliunde , quàm inde venturus est ad viuos mortuo●que iudicandos : Doubte thou not , but Christe Jesus , as Man , is there nowe , from whence he shal comme : And heare thou wel in minde , and faithefully beleeue the Christian Confession , That Christe is Risen againe from the Deade : And Ascended into Heauen : And Sitteth at the Right Hande of the Father : And that he shal comme againe from thence , and from no where els , to Judge the quicke , and the Deade . Againe he saithe , Homo , secundum Corpus , in Coelo est : August . in Iohan tracta. 31. & de loco migrat : & , cùm ad alium locum venerit , in eo loco , vnde venit , non est : Christe , as Man , accordinge to his Body , is in Heauen : and passeth from place to place : and , when he commeth to an other place , he is not in the other place , from whence he came . Likewise againe , Secundum Praesentiam Maiestatis , August . in Iohan . tractat. 50. semper habemus Christum nobiscum : Secundum Praesentiam Carnis , rectè dictum est Discipulis , Me autem non semper habebitis : Accordinge to the Presence of his Maiestie , wee haue Christe euermore with vs : But accordinge to the Presence of the Fleashe , it is true , that Christe saide to his Disciples , Me you shal not haue alwaies with you .

So saithe the Holy Father , and Martyr Vigilius , Vigilius contra Eutychen , Lib. 1. Del Filius , secundum Humanitatem suam , recessit à nobis : Secundum Diuinitatem , ait , Ecce ego vobiscum sum vsque ad Consummationem saeculi : The Sonne of God , accordinge to his Manhoode , is gonne from vs : But accordinge to his Godhed , he saithe , Beholde , I am with you vntil the ende of the worlde . And againe , Et nobiscum est , & non est nobiscum : quia quos reliquit Humanitate , non Deseruit Diuinitate : Christe is with vs : and yet he is not with vs : For whome he leafte , touchinge his Humaine Nature , or his Body , touchinge his Godhead , he leafte them not . And againe , Verbum vbique est : Caro autem eius vbique non est : The Woorde , ( or Godhed of Christe ) is euerywhere , but his Fleashe , or Body is not euerywhere . So saithe S. Cyril . Etsi Corpore abfuero , Cyrill . in Iohannem . Li. 10. Ca. 7. Praesens tamen ero , vt Deus : Although I be Absente as touchinge my Body : yet , as God , I wil be Presente .

And to leaue an infinite number of other Learned , and Catholique Fathers , Faithe Eateth . that haue written the like , Origen . in Matthae . Homi. 33. Origen saithe thus : Secundum Diuinitatis Naturam non peregrinatur à nobis : Peregrinatur secundum dispensationem Corporis , quod suscepit : Christe , accordinge to his Godhed , is not a stranger to vs : But he is a stranger , accordinge to the dispensation of the Body , that he receiued .

Thus is Christe bothe Absente , and Presente : Presente in Maiestie , Absente in Body . And in this sense Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. 1. Corinth . Homil. 6. Semper nobiscum est Christus : Neque enim , nisi nobiscum esset Christus , superesset Ecclesia : Christe is euermore Presente with vs . For onlesse he were presente , the Churche of God coulde not continewe .

But M. Hardinge saithe , Howe can yee make good , that by Faithe wee receiue his Body , and Bloude ? By Faithe wee receiue Grace , &c. This question shoulde rather haue benne demaunded of S. Augustine , and of other Learned Doctours , and Ancient Fathers of the Churche . Augustin . in Iohannem , tract . 25. Tertull. De Resurrectione Carnis . How coulde S. Augustine saie , Quid paras dentem , & ventrem ? Crede , & Manducasti : What preparest thou thy toothe , and thy Belly ? Beleeue : and thou haste eaten . How coulde Tertullian saie , Christus auditu deuorandus est : intellectu ruminandus est : & Fide digerendus est ? Christe muste be deuoured by Hearinge : chewed by vnderstandinge : digested by Faithe .

How coulde Origen saie , Origen . in Matthae . Tracta . 26. Cyprian . De Coena Domini . sanguis Tesamenti infusus est in Corda nostra ? The Bloude of the Testamente is powred into our hartes . Howe coulde S. Cyprian saie , Esus huius Carnis est quaedam auiditas , & quoddam defiderium manendi in Christo ? Quod est esca Carni , hoc est Animae Fides . Non dentes ad mordendum acuimus : sed Fide sincera Panem Sanctum frangimus : The Eatinge of this Fleashe is a certaine greedinesse , and a certaine desire to tarrie in Christe . That meate is vnto our Fleashe , the same is Faithe vnto our Soules . Wee sharpen not out teeth to bite withal : But with pure Faithe wee breake this Holy Breade . To be shorte , howe could S. Augustine saie , August . in Iohan . tracta. 26. Credere in Christum , hoc est manducare Panem Viuum ? To Beleeue in Christe , that is the Eatinge of the Breade of Life . And againe , Nolite parare fauces , sed Cor: Prepare not your mouthes ( to Eate of this Breade , but ) prepare your Hartes . To these & other like Ancient Catholique Fathers M. Hardinge should haue saide , How can ye make good , that by Faithe we receiue Christes Body , and Bloude ? Thus they witnesse : thus they write : thus they saie : and therefore , onlesse M. Hardinge can finde vntruthe in theire woordes , they make it good .

But to force onwarde his mater , he saithe : Properly , and truely to speake , howe can wee Eate Christes Body by Faithe ? Here it might haue pleased M. Hardinge to remember , that these phrases , To Eate Christe : To Drinke Christe : To Digeste Christe : To be Fedde with Christe : To dwelle in Christe : To be cladde with Christe : To be grafte in Christe : and other the like , are not plaine , ordinarie , vsual , and Common Speaches : but Mystically , and Couertly vttered vnder a Figure : thereby to géeue vs to vnderstande , that Christe is our Spiritual Meate : our Spiritual Drinke : our Spiritual Sustenance : our Spiritual house : our Spiritual robe : and our Spiritual stocke . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Nisi manducaueritis Carnem Filij Hominis , & Sanguinem biberitis , non habebitis Vitam in vobis . August . De Doctrina Christiana , Lib. 3. ca. 16. Facinus , vel Flagitium videtur iubere . Figura ergo est , Praecipiens Passioni Domini esse communicandum , & suauiter , atque vtiliter recondendum in memoria , quòd pro nobis Caro eius Crucifixa , & vulnerata sit : Onlesse ye eate the Fleashe of the Sonne of Man , and Drinke his Bloude , ye shal haue no life in you . He seemeth by these woordes to commaunde vs to doo an horrible wickednesse . ( For it is an horrible mater to eate Mannes Fleashe , or to drinke Mannes Bloude . ) Therefore this is a Figure , ( or manner of speache ) commaundinge vs to be partakers of Christes Passion , and comfortably to laie vp in our minde , that his Fleashe was Crucified , and wounded for our sakes .

So saith Gratian ▪ De Conse . Dist. 2. Species . touching the same , Quidam non improbabiliter exponunt Carnis , & Sanguinis Veritatem , ipsam earundem rerum efficientiam , id est , Remissionem Peccatorum : Touchinge these woordes , The Truthe of Christes Fleashe , and Bloude , somme menne not vnaptely vnderstande thereby , the effecte , and force of Christes Fleashe , and Bloude , that is to saie , The Remission of our Sinnes . And so S. Augustine saithe , Lauerunt Stolas suas in Sanguine Agni , Augu. in Apoc. Homil. 6. hoc est , in Gratia Dei per Christum : They washte theire cotes in the Bloude of the Lambe , that is to saie , in the Grace of God through Christe . This Grace flowinge from Christes Body vpon the Crosse , and geuen to the Faithful in the Ministration of the Holy Mysteries , oftentimes beareth the name of Christes Body , and is the grounde , and Substance of the Sacrament : And who so euer is Partetaker of this Grace , is also Partetaker of Christes Body . Therefore S. Augustine saith , Cùm essent omnibus Communia Sacramenta , Aug. in Psal. 77. non Communis erat omnibus Gratia , quae est Virtus Sacramentorum : Whereas the Sacramentes were common to al , yet the Grace thereof was not common to al. And that is the Power , and strength of the Sacramentes . Likewise S. Ambrose , In similitudinem quidem accipis Sacramentum : Sed Verae Naturae Gratiam , Virtutemque consequeris : Ambros . De Sacramen . li. 6. ca. 1 Yee take the Sacramente in Representation , or Remembrance : But ye obteine thereby the Grace and Power of Christes Very Nature .

Here M. Harding once againe moueth a very néedelesse question . Wee demaunde , saithe he , whether wee receiue the same Body of Christe by Faithe onely , without our Body , or with the office of our Body . Any childe might soone be hable to assoile this reddle . Rabanus Maurus saithe , Rabanus Maurus Lib. 1. Ca. 31. as it is alleged before , Sacramentum ore percipitur : Virtute verò Sacramenti interior homo satiatur : The Sacramente is receiued with the bodily mouth : but withe the vertue of the Sacramente , ( whiche is the Body of Christe ) the Inner man ( that is , not the Body , but the Soule ) is filled . So saithe Augustine , Cùm videbitis Filium Hominis alcendentem , vbi erat priùs , certè vel tunc videbitis , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 27. quia non eo modo , quo putatis , erogat Corpus suum : certè vel tunc intelligetis , quia Gratia eius non consumitur morsibus : When ye shal see the Sonne of Man Ascendinge thither , where he was before , then at the leaste , ye shal see , that he geeueth not his Body in sutche sorte , as you imagine : Then shal you vnderstande , that his Grace is not consumed with bitte of mouthe . Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 26. Againe he saithe , Qui manducat intus , non foris : qui manducat in corde , non qui premit dente : He that eateth the Christes Body in wardly , not that eateth ( the Sacramente ) outwardly : He that eateth the Body of Christe it selfe in his harte , not that presseth ( the Sacramente ) with his toothe .

M. Hardinge argueth farther , Christes Body is so receiued , as it is Presente : But it is presente by Bread and Wine ( ye saie ) Ergo it is receiued by Bread , and Wine : To conclude , if by Bread , and Wine , then not by Faithe onely . If M. Hardinge had better considered the Rules of his Olde Sophistrie , he might soone haue séene the wantes , and deformities of theis reason . Emongest children it is called Ignoratio Elenchi : Whiche is the Simplest Fallax of al the reste .

It is true , that of our parte , it is not either our hande , , or our mouthe , but Faith onely , that receiueth the Body of Christe : but the same Body of Christe is offered , and represented vnto our Faithe by meane of the Sacramentes . Wée speake of sutche Instrumentes of Receiuinge , as are of our selfe , and be within vs : M. Hardinge answeareth of the Sacramentes , that be external Instrumentes , and are wholy without vs . So in Baptisme , notwithstandinge wée haue Christe Presente of our parte Onely by Faithe ▪ yet S. Augustine saithe , as it is saide before , Habemus Christum in Presenti per Baptismatis Sacramentum : Wee haue Christe Presently by the Sacramente of Baptisme . Thus is Christe Presente vnto vs : Of his parte , Onely by his Grace : Of our parte , Onely by our Faithe : By the Sacramentes , Onely , Certainetie of Doctrine . as by meane of outwarde Instrumentes , to moue our senses . This light , and childishe errour , as I haue saide before , is called Ignoratio Elenchi , and therefore séemeth to procede of Ignorance . M. Hardinge should haue better examined the force of his Argumentes , before he thus suddainely sente them abroade .

Touchinge the mater it selfe , it is not the Bodily mouthe , but Faithe alone , that receiueth , and embraceth Christes Body . S. Augustine saithe , Panis iste Interioris Hominis quaerit esuriem . Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 26. Qui credit in eum , manducat : This Breade requireth the hunger of the Inner Man . He that beleeuth in him , eateth his Body .

This is no tangling , as you saie , M. Hardinge : It is the Auncient Catholique Doctrine of the Churche of God . Wée be wel assured of it , & knowe certainely , what wée saie . But touching the certainetie of your Doctrine in this point , I haue briefely touched it in my Former Replie , so mutche , as I then thought might séeme sufficiente . Somme of you hold , the Christes Body passeth down into the stomake : Somme , that it entreth onely into the Mouthe , & goeth no further : Somme others saie , Quàm citò Species teruntur dentibus , De Conse . Dist. 2. Tribus gradib . In Glossa . tam citò in Coelum rapitur Corpus Christi : As soone as the Fourmes of the Breade be grated with the teeth , streight waie the Body of Christe is caught vp into Heauen . An other of you saithe , A Mouse eateth the Body of Christe : An other saithe , Nay ; a Mouse cannot eate it : Peter Lombarde , the Grande Maister of al your Schoole , is piteously confounded in the case , and cannot imagine , what to saie . 4. Senten . dist. 13. For after he had him selfe moued the question , Quid igitur sumit Mus , vel quid manducat ? What is it then , that the Mouse receiueth , or what eateth it ? He answeareth , Deus nouit : Nowe God knoweth : ( As for my parte , I cannot tel ) . Sutche be your Doctours , M. Hardinge : sutche is your Doctrine . Therefore , to conclude with your owne woordes , it appeareth by your agréemente , and your answeares , ye vnderstande not the thinges ye speake of : but both● affirme , and denie , ye knowe not what .

M. Hardinge .

As ye procede foorth , ye geue warninge to your Readers , not to take you so , as though ye held with transubstantiation . And here ye speake thereof as best becommeth your scoffinge sprite , callinge it a dreame of men of later times , whereof they coulde neuer yet agree within them selues . By whiche woordes your eloquence hath set foorth your spite and lieing at once . For albeit the terme of transubstantiation be * * Marke this Antiquitie . This Councel was holden twelue-hundred and fifteene yeeres after Christe . of no greater antiquitie , Transubstantiatio● . then the Councel Laterane vnder Innocentius the thirde , where it was by the Holy Ghoste , and the Fathers there deuised , as very fitte for opening of the Truthe impugned by the Berengarians : yet is the Doctrine thereof no lesse Auncient , then the Gospel it selfe . For maugre the malice of the Deuil , and of al the Sacramentaries , the Olde Truthe shal preuaile , by whiche we are taught , that , whiche was Breade , by the Mystical blessinge to be ‡ ‡ As in a Mysterie , or Sacramente : but not in Substance : Otherwise it is a greate Vntruthe . made Christes Body : and that whiche was wine , to be made his Bloude , as I haue other wheres sufficiently declared . And the Churche hath * * Vntruthe manifeste , As shal appeare . alwaies hereupon perfitely accorded , touchinge the Substance : though certaine schoolemen in their Scholastical Disputations , where oftentimes victorie is sought , and Faith not impugned , about discussion of somme schoole point , haue without preiudice of our belefe disagreede .

The B. of Sarisburie .

As for the scoffes , and spites , and lies , ye speake of , M. Hardinge , let him haue them , that hath beste deserued them . Then verily , without greate wronge , you cannot lose them .

Touching your New Fantasie of Transubstantiation , whether it be a dreame , or no , & whether the dreamers of it them selues were euer yet hable , rightly to expound theire owne dreame , it appeareth partely by your owne Confession . Ye graunte , the name and terme thereof was neuer knowen , or hearde of in al the Worlde , vntil your late Councel of Laterane , holden in Rome vnder Pope Innòcentius the thirde , Transubstantiation Newe , & doubteful . in the yeere of our Lorde a thousande two hundred and fiftéene , Anno. 1215. in the time of Kinge Iohn the Kinge of England , and neuer before . So longe the Churche of God was hable wel to stande without your Transubstantiation .

And al be it ye tel vs , notwithstandinge the newnesse of the name , yet neuerthelesse the Doctrine thereof hath stil continewed in the Churche , and hathe benne euermore receiued , and confessed of al the Faitheful : and that maugre the malice of the Diuel , and of al the Sacramentaries , it is as Ancient , as the Gospel , or as Christe him selfe : Yet of that other side ye confesse plainely , that for the space of twelue hundred yéeres , and more , Roman wiste , by what name to calle it .

But for as mutche , as you thinke it lawful for you to auouthe , and affirme , what you liste , true , or false , without controlmente : whereas ye saie , this late Faithe of yours is as Auncient , as the Gospel , knowe you , that somme of the beste learned of your owne side , haue saide , It is a newe Pointe in Religion : and therefore not so Auncient , as you seeme to make it : It is a doubteful Conclusion : and therefore no Faithe at al. Cutberbertue Tonstallus ▪ De Eucharistia , Lib. 1. Pag. 46 , D. Tonstal thereof saithe thus , De modo , quo id fieret , fortasse satius erat ▪ Curiosum quenque suae relinquere Coniecturae : sicut liberum fuit ante Concilium Lateranum : Of the manner , and meane , howe this might be ( whether by Transubstantiation , or otherwise ) perhaps it had benne better to leaue euery man , that woulde be Curious , to his owne Coniecture : as before the Councel of Laterane it was leafte at libertie . You saie , it is as Auncient as the Gospel : D. Tonstal saith , It is but new , and came in twelue hundred yéeres , and more , after the Gospel : You saie it is the Catholique Faith : D. Tonstal saithe , It is a Coniecture , or a Gheasse ( whiche differeth not mutch from a dreame ) and that before the saide late Councel of Laterane , noman was bounde to beleeue it . And here it maie please you to consider indifferently with your selfe : It it were leafte at Libertie , as D. Tonstal saithe , for any man either to receiue it , or to refuse it , as he thought good , how could it then be the Catholique Faithe ? If it were the Catholique Faithe , as you saie , & that maugre the malice of the Diuel , howe then could it so many hundred yeeres be leafte at libertie ?

Hereof ye saie , ye haue written sufficiently otherwheres . Al this I graunt : your Bookes are knowen . How be it , if you woulde haue written nomore but Truethe ▪ ye might haue saued mutche time , and spared somme paper . But if it shal not mislike you , once againe more aduisedly to viewe the same , ye shal finde in the very Firste Diuision thereof thrée greate Vntruthes togeather , al within the space of Foureteene lines .

Nowe whether your fantasie of Transubstantiation be a Dreame , or no , by the Constancie , and Certainetie thereof , and by the agréemente of your Doctours , that founded it firste ▪ it maie appeare . Petrus Lombardus , y● onely General of al this Camp , Senten 4. dist. 11. Si autem , &c. herof vseth these speaches : Quibusdam ita Videtur : Quidam dicunt : Quidam tradunt : Quidam concedunt : Alij putauerunt , Substantiam ibi Panis & Vini remanere : Somme menne Iudge thus : Somme saie thus : Somme haue written thus : Somme graunte this : Somme others haue thought thus , that the very Substance of the Breade , and Wine remaineth stil . Here is a strange agréemente of Learned menne , specially in a case of the Catholique Faith . But hereto what saithe Peter Lombarde him selfe , that taketh vpon him as a Iudge to determine these doubtes ? How is he resolued ? Or howe agréethe he in Iudgemente with him selfe ? His answeare is this , Si autem quaeritur , qualis sit illa Conuersio , An Formalis , An Substantialis , An alterius generis , definire non sufficio : If a question were moued , what manner of Conuersion , or change this is : Whether it be in Fourme , or in Substance , or of somme other sorte , I am not hable to discusse it . Here wée maie sée , the blinde leadeth the blinde . He that setteth him selfe before al the reste , Transubstantiation Newe , & douteful . and woulde be taken for a guide , knoweth not where to sette his owne foots . Gabriel Biel saithe , Quomodo sit ibi Corpus Christi , Vtrùm per Conuersionem alicuius in ipsum , an sine Conuersine incipiat esse Corpus Christi cum Pane , manentibus Substantia , & Accidentibus Panis , non inuenitur expressum in Canone Bibliae : Howe the Body of Christe is there , whether it be by changinge of somme thinge into it , Gabriel . in Canonem , Lect. 40. Or Christes Body beginne to be there togeather with the Breade , both the Substance , and the Accidentes of the Breade remaininge stil without changinge , it is not founde expreste in the Canon of the Bible . I leaue Innocentius , Scotus , and sundrie others of your Scholastical Doctours , with theire doubteful dreames , and gheasses to like pourpose .

Whether these be dreames , or no , I leue to you , M. Hardinge , to consider . Verily Innocentius . 3. saithe , Fuetunt , qui dicerent , quòd , sicut post Consecrationem vera Panis remanent Accidentia , ita Panis remanet vera Substantia : There were somme , that saide , that as after Consecration there remaine the very Accidentes , or Fourmes of Bread , so likewise the very Substance of the same Breade remaineth stil . And this same Iudgemente Durandus , although he him selfe holde it not , yet he wil not haue it in any wise to be condemned .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , if you dissemble not , but beléeue constantly , as you saye , then cannot these thinges stande , without Preiudice of your beléeue .

M. Hardinge .

But Lorde what meant ye to allege Theophylacte , and S. Ambrose , whose Doctrine is so contrary to yours , Theophylacte contrary to these Defenders . as light is to darkenes ? Theophylacte expoundinge these woordes of Christe in S. Iohn . As the Liuinge Father hath sent me , euen so liue I by the Father , and he that eateth me , shal liue by me , saithe thus : Doest thou not heare a dreadful saieinge ? Wee eate not pure God , for he is vntoucheable , and vnbodily . Neither can he be comprehended with eies , nor teethe . Neither eate we the fleshe of a pure man : for that can profite nothing at al. But now that God hath vnited vnto him selfe fleashe after a vnspeakeable contemperament , the fleashe is also become lifemakinge . Not for that it is passed away into the Nature of God , * * This similitude of f●y yron quite ouerthroweth the whole fantasie of Transubstantiation . beware of that , but after the likenes of fyryyron , whiche abideth yron , and sheweth the operation of fire : euen so ( quoth he ) the fleashe of our Lorde abidinge fleashe , is lifemakinge , as beinge the fleashe of God the worde . then as ( saithe he ) I liue by the Father , who is life , so he that eateth me , shal liue by me , being tempered with me , as also being transelemented into me , who haue Power to viuificate or giue life . Whiche laste woordes your owne Doctour Oecolampadius hathe thus turned , Dum quodammodò miscetur , & transelementatur in me , qui viuificare potest , corruptinge the sounde Doctrine of the writer with his forged * * Vntruthe , presumed onely of ignorance For , Quodammodò , is in the texte : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . quodammodò , whiche he founde not in the Greke there placed , and breakinge the congruitie of the Latine speache , by puttinge that in the thirde Person , that ought to be in the firste . If faithe wrought al this matter , then after your meaning , might we eate God , whiche Theophylacte denyeth . He saithe , he that eateth Christes fleash , is tempered togeather with him , and transelemented into him , so as he is made one Body with him , Cap. 3. Ephe. 5. as Cyrillus expoundeth the place of S. Paule to the Ephesians : where he saithe , that we be Concorporales , that is to say , of one Body with Christe . And an other where , fleash of his fleashe , and bone of his bones .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Of Theophylactes Authoritie , wée neuer made any greate accoumpte . He is but a very late writer , in comparison of the Auncient Fathers . For the most parte of that he writeth , he is but an Abbridger of Chrysostome . He writeth againste the Churche of Rome , stoutly mainteininge a knowen Heresie , concerninge the Procedinge of the Holy Ghoste . Notwithstandinge , in this place wée alleged his woordes to good purpose . For , as he saith , wee are Transelemented , or transnatured . and changed into Christe , euen so , and none otherwise , wee saie , The Breade is Transelemented or chāgedinto Christes Body . But not withstanding this change . wée remaine stil in Substance , Theophylacte . To eate God . as wee were before : Therefore wée saie , Notwithstandinge the like change , The Substance of the Breade in like manner remaineth stil .

But what fansie came in your heade , M. Hardinge , thus to allege , and so vehemently to force this place of Theophylacte ? What one woorde speaketh he , either of your Transubstantiation , or of your Real presence , or of your Corporal , and Fleashely Eating ? Verily , as , by any his expresse woordes , he nothing aideth you , so by his example of Firie yron , he séemeth quite to ouerthrowe you . For if ye compare the Sacramente with a péece of Burninge yron , ( whiche neuerthelesse was not Theophylactes meaninge : and therefore ye are therein mutche deceiued ) then , as the yron , although it be fiery , yet notwithstandinge in Nature , and Substance is yron stil : Euen so the Breade , although it be made the Sacramente of Christes Body , and so the Instruments of the Grace of God , yet , that notwithstandinge , in Nature , and Substance in Breade stil .

Here , leste you , geuinge ouer your Transubstantiation , as knowinge it to be onely a late founde fantasie , should hope neuerthelesse by this Example of Fiery yron to establishe your Real Presence , and to saie , that as the fiere is Really , and in deede in the yron , so the Body of Christe is in déede , and Really in the Sacramente : it maie please you to cal to minde , that in the Holy Learned Fathers , the same example , and like Fourme of speache , is vsed also of the Sacramente of Baptisme . In the Councel of Nice it is written thus : Concil Nicen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Vides Aquam : Cogita de virtute Dei , quae latet in Aqua . Cogita , A quam esse plenam Ignis Diuini : Thou seeste the Water : Thinke thou of the Power of God , that lieth in the Water : Thinke thou , that the Water is ful of Heauenly Fier . Yet , I trowe , ye wil not haue vs beléeue , as an Article of our Faithe , that this fire , whereby is ment the Bloude of Christe , is in déede , and Really in the Water .

These , and sutche other the like , maie not alwaies be taken , as phrases of Precise Truthe : but rather as Amplifications , or heates of speache , the better to sturre vp , and to enflame the mindes of the Hearers . And in this sorte , and sense , to leaue other Authorities , Hosius in Conf. Petruouien . Cap. 48. Hosius , your owne Doctour saithe , Opera nostra respersa sunt Sanguine Christi : Our Woorkes be sprinkled with the Eloude of Christe . So saith Pope Innocentius . 3. Virtutes nostiae Crucis Christi Sanguine Purpurantur : Our Vertues are died , Innocen . De Mysterijs Miss. Li. 2. as redde as Purple , in the Bloude of the Crosse of Christe . Thus the Holy Fathers saie , The Breade of the Holy Mysteries , and the Water of Baptisme are ful of fiere .

Further Theophylacte saithe , The Body of Christe is Eaten : But the Godheade is not Eaten : bicause it is vntoucheable , and vncomprehensible vnto our senses . Hereof you woulde séeme to reason thus : If Faith wrought al this mater , then might wee Eate God . For by Faithe wée beléeue in God .

Firste , Psalm 33. touchinge the Eatinge of God , 1. Pet. 2. God him selfe saith , Augu. De Verb. Domini Secund. Lucam , Serm 29 August . Confess . Gustate , & videre , quòd suauis est Dominus : Taste , and see that the Lord is delectable . S. Augustine saith , Panis est , & Panis est , & Panis est : Deus Pater , Deus Filius , & Deus Spiritus Sanctus : It is Breade , It is Breade , and it is Breade : God the Father , God the Sonne , and God the Holy Ghoste . Againe he saith , Deus Panis intus est animae meae : God is the Inwarde Breade of my Soule . Therefore it is not so thorowly , and vndoubtedly true , that you saie , the Nature of God cannot be Eaten .

Notwithstandinge , for sparinge of woordes , and time , Lib 1. Articulo . 8. Diuisi . 16. herein I wil refer you to my Former Replie . There shal you finde this whole Obiection fully answeared .

You saie , Theophylactes reason standeth thus , God cannot be Eaten : bicause be cannot be comprehended , either with eies , or with teethe . But Christes Body maie be eaten : To eate God . Therefore it muste folowe in the Conclusion , that with our eies wee maie see it : and with our teethe receiue it . Here woulde I faine learne of you , M. Hardinge , when ye sawe Christes Body visibly in the Sacramente with your eies , or when ye pressed it with your téeth ? Augu. in Iohan. Tracta 25. If your téeth can receiue it , why saithe S. Augustine , Quid paras Dentem , & Ventrem ? Why preparest thou thy Toothe , and they Belly ? If your Bodily eie can sée it , why saye you , It is Inuisible ? If it be Inuisible , howe is it séene ? If it be séene , how is it Inuisible ? It appeareth , that either Theophylacte the Maister , or you the Scholare , are deceiued : or one of you vnderstandeth not the others meaninge . Certainely , as Christes Body is seene in the Sacramente , so is it eaten in the Sacramente . But it is not Really , or Fleashely séene : Therefore it is not Really , or Fleashely Eaten .

To auoide errour herein , it behooueth vs to vnderstande , that , To eate God , is to haue the fruition of the Diuine Nature , and to be Incorporate into God . But the Maiestie of God so far surmounteth the capacitie of man , that as he is in him selfe in Nature , and Godhedde , no mortal creature is hable to conceiue him , but onely in the Face , Hebr. 1. and sight of Iesus Christe the Sonne of God . Therefore S. Paule saithe , Christus est Splendor Gloriae , & Character Substantiae Dei : Christe is the Brightnesse of the Glorie , and the expresse Image of the Substance of God . S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . in Psal. 134. Tu quomodò contingis Deum ? Quia Verbum Caro factum est , & habitauit in nobis : Howe doest thou touche God ? ( He answeareth ) Bicause the Woorde became Fleashe , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta 2. and dwelte in vs . Againe he saithe , Si Christus sic veniret , vt Deus , non agnosceretur : If Christe came so , as he is God , noman coulde knowe him . S. Gregorie saithe , Grego . in Ezech. Lib. 1. Homil. 14. Dominus murus nobis non esset , si forinsecùs non fuisset : Intus nos non protegeret , si exteriùs non appareret : Our Lorde were no wal vnto vs , if he had not benne in the Fourme of Man : He coulde not inwardely defende vs , if he had not outwardely appeared . Eccles. Hierar . Cap. 3. So saithe Dionysius , Si cupimus Communionem habere cum Deo , oportet nos in Diuinissimam illius vitam , quam egit in Carne , intueri : If wee desire to haue Communion with God , wee muste beholde that heauenly life , that he leadde in the Fleashe . Thus , as God is God , in Maiestie , and in him selfe , wée vnderstande him not , wee conceiue him not , wee knowe him not : That is to saie , wee haue no fruition of him , Augustin in Psalm. 119. wee eate him not . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Iesum Christum secundum id , quod erat Verbum apud Deum , Paruuli non capiunt . Quomodò ergo capiunt , qui Lac capiunt ? Iesum Christum , inquit , & hunc Crucifixum . Suge quod pro te factus est : & cresces ad id , quod est : Litle ones vnderstande not Iesus Christe , accordinge to that he was the Woorde with the Father . How then doo they receiue him , that receiue milke ? S. Paule saithe , they receiue Iesus Christe Crucified . Sucke that thinge , that he was made for thee : and thou shalt growe to that he is .

Thus in the Holy Mysteries there is represented vnto vs , not the Diuine Nature of Christe , whereby he is Equal to the Father : But his Death , and Humilitie , whereby he abased him selfe , and was made Equal vnto vs . This is the Spiritual Meate , and Drinke , and the onely feedinge of the Soule . ● Thereof S. Paule saithe , 1. Cor. 11. As often as ye shal eate of this Breade , and drinke of this Cuppe , ye shal publishe ( not the Diuine Nature , or Godhedde , but ) the Lordes Deathe vntil he comme . So saithe Hesychius , Hesych . in Leut. Lib. 1. Cap. 2. Ambrosi . in 1. Cor. 11. Comedimus hunc Cibum , sumentes eius memoriam Passionis : Wee Eate this Foode , receiuinge the memorie ( not of his glorie , but ) of his Passion . So saith S. Ambrose , Quia Morte Domini liberati sumus , huius rei memores , in Edendo , & Potando , Carnem , & Sanguinem , quae pro nobis oblata sunt , significamus : Bicause wee are deliuered by our Lordes Deathe , beinge mindeful thereof , in Eatinge , and Drinkinge , We Signifie , or Represente the Fleashe , and Bloude , that were offered vp for vs . Thus in the Holy Mysteries wee Eate , and Drinke the Sacramente of Christe Crucified in the Humilitie of his Fleashe . But his Diuine Nature in Godhed , Christes Body geeueth Life . and Maiestie cannot be Represented , or expressed by any Sacramentes .

It was al vaine , and loste laboure for you , M. Hardinge , so earnestly to proue , that Christes Body quickeneth , and geuéeth life . Wee knowe it : Wée Confesse it : Iohan. 6. Wée féele it : Christe him selfe saithe it : I am the Breade of Life : He that eateth of this Breade , shal liue for euer .

This talke empeacheth noman , but your selfe . For you tel vs , and woulde haue it holden , as an Article of your Faithe , not onely , that the wicked man without Faith , but also that the doumbe creature voide of Reason , maie receiue the very Body of Christe , and that Substantially , Verily , & in déede . Thus you diuide and sunder Christes Body , from his Sprite : and , contrarie to Theophylacte , and to al the Ancient Fathers , and to Christe him selfe , ye saie , It maie be Really receiued without Life .

But wée saie , Ambros . De Benedictionib Patriarch . Cap. 6. with S. Ambrose , Qui accipit hunc Panem , non moritur morte Peccatoris : Quia hic Panis est Remissio Peccatorum : Who so eateth this Breade ( not the Sacramente of Christes Body , but Christes Body it selfe ) diethe not the death of a Sinner : For this Breade is the Remission of Sinnes . Wée saye with S. Augustine , Qui Carnem Domini non sumit , non habet vitam : & , qui eam sumit , habet vitam , Augu in Iohan. Tracta. 26. & hanc vtique aeternam : He that receiueth not the Fleashe of Our Lorde , hath no Life : and , he that receiueth it , hath Life , and the same Euerlasting . Againe wée saie with S. Augustine , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta . eodem . Huius rei Sacramentum de Mensa Dominica sumitur , quibusdam ad vitam , quibusdam ad Mortem : Res verò ipsa , cuius Sacramentum est , Omni homini ad vitam , Nulli ad exitium : quicunque eius Particeps fuerit : The Sacramente ( of Christes Body ) is receiued from the Lordes Table , to somme vnto Life , to somme vnto Death : But the thinge it selfe , ( that is , the Body of Christe , whereof this is a Sacramente ) is to al menne vnto Life , and to Noman vnto Deathe : Who soeuer shal be Partetaker of it .

For somme further declaration hereof , it appeareth by the witnesse of the Anciente Learned Doctours , and Fathers , that wée are Really , and Corporally ioined , and vnited vnto Christe , not onely by the Mysteries of the Holy Supper , but also by Faithe , by Baptisme , by the Sprite of God , by Loue , and other waies . Of Faithe S. Augustine saith thus : August . Epist. 31. Per Fidem Adcorporamur in Iesu Christo Domino nostro : By Faithe wee are incorporate in Christe Iesu our Lorde . And againe , Qui venit ad me , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 25. Incorporatur mihi : He that commeth vnto me , is Incorporate into me . Chryso . in Epist. ad Rom. Hom. 25 Chryso . in Epist. ad Colos. Hom. 6. S. Chrysostome saith , Quid nobis esse non vult , omnibus modis nos sibi conglutinans , & coniungens ? What wil not Christe be vnto vs ? For by al manner meanes he cleaueth , and fasteneth him selfe vnto vs . Againe in plainer sorte he saithe , Dominum ipsum amplecteris , & Commisceris , & subuectus coniungeris Corpori illi , quod sursum sedet in Coelis : Thou embraceste the Lorde him selfe , and arte mingled with him , and beinge here benea the , arte ioiued to that Body , that sitteth in Heauen aboue .

In like manner he writteth of the Sacramente of Baptisme : Chryso . in Epist. ad Ephe. Hom. 20. Quomodò ex Carne eius sumus , & ex Ossibus eius ? Quemadmodum ille fine Virili Congressu natus est ex Spiritu Sancto , ita nos illud efficimur in Lauacro : How are wee of his Fleash , and of his Bones ? He answeareth , As Christe was borne by the Holy Ghoste without the knowledge of Man , euen so in the Fonte ( of Baptisme ) wee are made the same ( that is , his Fleashe , and his Bones ) .

So saithe Leo , Leo , De Natiuitate Domi. Sermo. 3. Sicut Dominus Factus est Caro nostra nascendo , ita nos facti sumus ipsius ( Caro ) Renascendo : As our Lorde was made our Fleash , by that he was Borne : so are wee made his Fleashe , by that wee are newe borne .

So saith S. Hierome , Hieronym . 〈◊〉 Viro Perfecta . De Carne eius sumus , & de Ossibus eius : Ipse enim est Caput Corporis Ecclesiae : Wee are of his Fleashe , and of his Bones : For that he is the Heade of His Body , Quodammodò . whiche is the Churche .

Thus , M. Harding , wée are ioined togeather , and temp●ared with Christe , not onely by the Holy Mysteries , but also by the Sacramente of Baptisme , & by Faith . And Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in . 1. Cor. Hom. 8. Ne simpliciter teneamus Christum , sed etiam illi conglutinemur . Nam si quicquam secesserimus ab eo , Perimus : Let vs not onely holde Christe , but also let vs be faste glewed vnto him . For if wee falle any thinge from him , wee are vtterly loste . Muste wée therefore conclude , M. Hardinge , that the Water of Baptisme is Transubstantiate , no parte of the Substaunce thereof remaininge stil : or that Christes Body is Really , and grossely Presente in that Sacramente , as you haue imagined of the other ?

Ye finde greate fanlte with Oecolampadius , for corruptinge , as ye saie , the sounde Doctrine of Theophylacte with his forged , Quodammodò , and for breakinge the Congruitie of the Latine speache , by puttinge the thirde Personne , in place of the firste . Of the Latine Congruitie , I wil saie nothinge . The Learned thinke , that Oecolampadius was as skilful bothe in the Latine tongue , and in the Gréeke , as M. Hardinge . But for the forginge of , Quodammodò , why doo you not as wel finde faulte with Theophylacte him selfe ? For if it be a forgerie , he him selfe hath likewise forged the same , Quodammodò : and if that maie be called Corruption , he hath also corrupted his owne Doctrine . These be his woordes : Theophylact. in Iohan. Cap. 6. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Qui manducat me , hic viuet propter me , dum Quodammodò miscetur mihi , & transelementatur in me : He that cateth me , shal liue by me : for as mutche as , after a sorte , he is mingled with me , and transelemented , or changed into me . If yee doubte , whether , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in Gréeke , maie be expounded by , Quodammodò , then is not your skil herein so greate , as ye haue thought .

Why finde ye not faulte with S. Augustine , for saieinge the like ? Omnes in illo , & Christi , & Christus sumus : quia Quodammodò totus Christus , & Caput , & Corpus est : In him wee are al Christes , and Christe him selfe : For after a sorte whole Christe is bothe the Heade ( of the Churche ) and also the Body . And againe , Qui in Christum credit , Augu. in Psal. 26 August . in Iohan . Sermon . 61. August . Epist. 120. Cap. 18. credendo in Christum veniet , & in cum Christus , & quoquo modo vnitur in eum , & Membrum in Corpore eius efficitur : He that beleeueth in Christe , by beleeuinge commeth into Christe , and Christe into him , and after a sorte is vnited into him , and is made a Member in his Body . And againe , Paulum Christus voce mactauit , & in suum Corpus traijciens , Quodammodò manducauit : Christe killed Paule with his voice , Cyrill ad Calosyrium . and after a sorte , did eate him , swalowinge him down into his Body . Why finde ye not the same faulte with Cyrillus writing thus , Decebat ergo eum Quodammodò Vniri Corporibus nostris ? It was meete , that after a sorte Christe shoulde be Vnited vnto our Bodies : Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 84. Or with S. Chrysostome , writinge the like : Christus nos secum in vnam , vt ita dicam , Massam reducit ? Christe mouldeth vs . if I maie so saie , into one lumpe with him selfe .

Why saie ye not , these , and other like Holy Fathers were Sacramentaries , and Heretiques ? Why saie ye not , that S. Augustine , S. Cyril , S. Chrysostome , with theire Forged Quodammodò , corrupted the sounde , and Catholique Doctrine of the Churche ?

Woulde ye rather , for the better facinge , and colouringe of your Doctrine , wée shoulde strike oute this , Forged Quodammodò , and amende it thus , Qui manducat me , Reipsa Miscetur mihi , & transelementatur in me ? Woulde ye haue vs to beléeue , that wee are wholy , and thorowly changed into Christes Body , and that wée are made very Christe , God , and Man , the same , that was borne of the Virgine , and nailed to the Crosse : and that not , Quodammodò , after a sorte . or by somme peculiare phrase of speache : but Substantially , Really , Verily , and in déede ? Quodammodò . I recken , your Doctrine is not fully so fonde .

S. Paule saithe , Roma . 12. Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 11. Cap. 26. Chrysostom . in 1. Cor. Homil. ● Sumus alter alterius Membra : Wee are Members one of an other : Cyrillus saithe , Nos inter nos vnimur Corporaliter : Wee are Corporally vnited togeather emonge our selues : S. Chrysostome saithe , Si quis exuat impudicarum mulierum animas , videbit malum Daemonem illis admixtum : If a man wil open the Soules of Vnchaste , or Filthy Wemen , he shal see the Diuel tempered togeather , and mingled with them . And thinke you , M. Hardinge , that these , and other like speaches of the Holy Fathers , cannot stande without your Transubstantiation , and Real Presence ? Or , that the Godly be Substantially , and in déede in theire Bodies ioined togeather ? Or , that the Vngodly be verily vnited , and mingled with the Diuel ?

You might rather haue remembred , that touchinge this vnspeakeable Vnitie bitwéene Christe , and the Faitheful , that is to saie , bitwéene the Heade , and the Body , Cyprian . De Coena Domini . S. Cyprian writeth thus : Nostra , & Christi Coniunctio nec miscet Personas , nec vnit Substantias : sed affectus consociat , & confoederat voluntates : The Coniunction , that is bitweene vs , and Christe , neither mingleth Personnes , nor vniteth Substances : but ioineth affections , and knitteth willes . Likewise saithe S. Cyril , Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 4. Cap. 29. Initium , & fundamentum in Sanctificatione Christus est , Per Fidem , scilicet , & non aliter : Hoc enim modo in nobis habitat : The Beginninge , and Fundation of our Holinesse is Christe : By Faithe , I meane , and none otherwise . For in this sorte Christe dwelleth in vs . Likewise Lyra , one of your owns late Doctours : In quantum per Sacramentum Eucharistiae unimur Deo , Nicol. Lyra in Iohan. Cap. 6. viuimus Spiritualiter : Nostra autem vnio apud ipsum est per Fidem , & Dilectionem : So far foorth , as wee are vnited vnto God by the Sacramente of Thankesgeeuinge , wee liue Spiritually : But the Vnion , that is bitweene him , and vs , is by Faithe , and loue . And , expoundinge these woordes of S. Paule , Nicol. Lira , 1. Cor. 6 Qui adhaeret Deo , vnus Spiritus est : He that eleueth vnto God , is one Sprite with God : He saithe , Vnus , non secundum rem , sed secundum affectionem : One Sprite with God , not One in deede , or accordinge to the Truthe : but One in Loue , or accordinge to affection .

And yet , somme what farther to remoue you from your fantaste of your Real Presence , Chryso in Epist. ad Colos. Hom. 6. S. Chrysostome saithe , as he is alleged before : Dominum ipsum amplecteris : cum illo commisceris : & subuectus Coniungeris Corpori illi , quod sursum sedet in Coelis : Thou embraceste the Lorde him selfe : thou arte tempered with him : and beinge carried vp ( by Faithe , and affection ) thou arte ioined with that Body , that fitteth in Heauen . Leo , De Ascensione Domini , Sermon . 3. In like sense saithe Leo : Christus ineffabili modi coepit esse Diuinitate Praesentior , qui factus est Humanitate loginquior : Christe by vnspeakable meanes beganne to be the neare to vs by his Diuinitie , the further he is made from vs by his Humanitie .

I doubte not , M. Harding , but ye maye easily sée , that hitherto your Real Presence is but weakely proued .

M. Hardinge .

Againe we maruel with what face ye dare allege Theophylacte for you , Not a Figure , but the Fleashe it selfe of our Lorde , Transubstantiation . who in moste euident woordes ouerthroweth your figuratiue tropical , and energical Doctrine touchinge this blessed Sacramente . For he saith vppon this sixthe Chapter of S. Iohn : Marke wel that the Breade , whiche is eaten of vs in the Mysteries , * * Vntruthe . For he manifestely affirmeth a. Figure . His wordes be these , It is not onely a Figure . Ergo he graunteth , it is a Figure . is not onely a certaine Figure of our Lordes Fleash , but the Fleash it selfe of our Lorde . For he saide not , the Breade that I shal geue is the Figure of Fleashe , but it is my Fleashe . For the Breade is with secrete woordes through the Mystical blessinge and comminge vppon of the Holy Ghoste , changed into the Fleashe of our Lorde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Theophylacte saithe , The Breade is not onely a certaine Figure of our Lordes Fleashe , but the Fleashe it selfe of our Lorde . This Obiection in my Former Replie is many where s answeared . Wée graunte , The Breade is not a bare , or a naked Figure : but by waie of Sacramente , or Mysterie , it is the Body of Christe it selfe . So the Water of Baptisme , is not an emptie Figure of the Bloude of Christe : but it is Christes Bloude it selfe , bicause it is the Sacramente of Christes Bloude . Bernard . Super Missus est . Hom. 3 Augusti . Contra Maximi . Lib. 3. And therefore S. Bernarde saithe , Lauemur in Sanguine eius : Let vs be wasshed , ( not in Water , but ) in the Bloude of Christe . S. Augustine geueth this general Rule , as I haue often reported , In Sacramentis videndum est , non quid sint , sed quid Significent : In Sacramentes wee muste consider , not what thei be ( in substance , & nature ) but what thei Signifie . Tertullian saith , Christus acceptum Panem , Tertull. Contra Marcion . Lib. 4. & Discipulis suis distributum Corpus suum illum Fecit , dicendo , Hoc est Corpus meum , hoc est , Figura Corporis mei : Christe hauing taken the Breade , and hauinge deliuered the same to his Disciples . Made it his Body , saieinge , This is my Body , That it to saie , This is a Figure of my Body . And to appointe a corruptible Creature to this vse , and to make it an effectual instrumente of sutche high , and Hidden Mysteries , it is not the Woorke of any mortal man , but the onely Power , and woorkinge of the Holy Ghoste : as it shal farther appeare in the nexte Clause , in mine answeare to the woordes of S. Ambrose . beda saithe thus , Beda in Octauis Epiphaniae . Panis , & Vini Creatura in Sacramentum Carnis , & Sanguinis Christi ineffabili Spiritus sanctificatione transfertur : The Creature of Breade , and Wine by the vnspeakeable Sanctification of the Holy Ghoste , is changed ( not into the very Real Body , and Bloude , but ) into the Sacramente of the Body , and Bloude of Christe .

M. Hardinge .

Neither Maketh S. Ambrose , whiche also ye bringe in , any better for you . Woulde God ye woulde admitte him for Vmpeere in this pointe . Verily in the booke , and chapter , that ye referre vs vnto , he disputeth as it were of pourpose againste you , as though he foresawe the time , when the Churche shoulde be troubled with the Heresie of Sacramentaries . Tu fortè dicis , &c. Perhappes thou sayest , De Sacr. Li. 4. Ca. 4. De Pane. Consecration . My Breade is common : But this Breade is Breade , before the woordes of the Sacramentes : so soone as consecration commeth , of Breade is made the Fleashe of Christe . Let vs then auouche this , howe that , whiche is Breade , maye be the Body of Christe ? By Consecration . Then with what woordes and speaches is consecration made ? Euen with those of our Lorde Iesus . For what so euer els is saide ( he meaneth at the Masse ) it is praisegeuinge to God , and prayinge for the People , for Kinges , for the reste . When the Prieste commeth to the Consecration of the honorable Sacramente , there he vseth not his owne woordes , but the Woordes of Christe . Therefore it is the woorde of Christe , that maketh the Sacramente . * * God maie wel be Omnipotente , without either Transubstantiation , or Real Presence . What woorde of Christe ? Soothely that same woorde whereby al thinges be made . Our Lorde Commaunded , and Heauen was made . Our Lorde Commaunded , and earthe was made . Our Lorde Commaunded , and the seas were made . Our Lorde Commaunded , euery Creature was engendred . Seest thou then , howe woorkeful is the woorde of Christe ? Operatorius These be the wordes alleaged by the Defender . Wel then , if there be so greate Power in the woorde of our Lorde Iesus , that thinges beganne to be , whiche were not : howe mutche more is it woorkeful , ‡ ‡ S. Ambrose saith , The Bread and Wine are the same thinges , they were before Consecration : notwithstandinge they be nowe made a Sacramente . Vt sint , quae erant , & in aliud commutentur , That thinges be whiche were , and be chaunged into an other thinge ? Here , Sir Defender , Constrewe me these wordes , and what sense can you draw foorth of them , but this : If by the workinge Power of our Lordes woorde , thinges haue a beinge , whiche before were nothinge , and had no beinge at al , as Heauen , Earthe and Seas : howe mutche more Power hath it to woorke , that thinges whiche were before , and had a beinge , nowe also be , or haue a beinge , but be changed into an other thinge , in Aliud , * * Vntrue exposition . That were contrarie to S. Ambrose . For then were they not the same thinges , their were before . into a thinge of an other Substaunce ? For by this phrase is signified a Substantial chaunginge , Omnipotente Power . whiche aptly is called Transubstantiation : And , I praie you , good Sir , The Elementes after Consecration be , or haue a beinge . who saieth , that the Elementes . I meane Breade and Wine , passe quite awaie , and go to nothinge ? Though you so belie vs , we saie not so : God forbid . We saie , that after consecration they be : But what ? * * O fonde folio . What Being haue thinges , when the●e Substance is gonne● . Not theselsesame they were , whereby the Former Substance is excluded , but the Body and Bloude of our Lorde . Againe in that we saye with S. Ambrose , in aliud commutantur , They be chaunged into an other thinge : foloweth it not thereof good logike , Ergo they be ? Wil not this argumente holde in Schole , the verbe passiue beinge resolued , ‡ ‡ A 〈…〉 truthe 〈…〉 modestie . Sunt commutata , Ergo sunt ? For that whiche ceasseth to be , or goeth to nothinge , ye cannot properly saye of it , that it is chaunged : but rather that it is ended , or perisheth . Nowe syr , I reporte me to euery man , that hath any sense , whether I maie not lawfully geue you the Menti , as for manners sake I maye vse the Italian terme , and chalenge you in plaine termes of a lye , for vtteringe this vntruthe , vppon that Holy Doctours S. Ambrose . specially speakinge as you do in your Englishe Translation , by your selfe allowed thus : For what can be saide more plainely , then that , whiche Ambrose saithe , Breade , and Wine remaine stil the same they were before , and yet are chaunged into an other thinge ? Zeale moueth me to saie beyonde the modestie of my natural disposition , What is iuggling , what is lieing . what is falshed , what is falsefieinge , what is wickednes of falsaries , if this be not ?

Neither is the saieinge , wherewith this Defender belyeth S. Ambrose , al onely false , and contrary to the Catholike Faithe , but also absurde , vnreasonable , and foolishe . For if Breade , and Wine remaine stil after Consecration , the same they were before , howe then are they chaunged into an other thinge ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , onlesse ye had made S. Ambrose a Prophete , ye thought , he coulde not so handesomely haue serued your tourne . But what , and of whom he prophesied , and how far sawe before , wée shal sée hereafter . Verily , if that he the Heresie , that you imagine , them he néeded not greately any Sprite of Prophesie in that behalfe . For he foretolde vs of no newe Heresie , that was to comme : but rather tolde vs of his owne Heresie , that then was presente . Doubtelesse , the woordes that wee reprote , are not ours : they are this owne .

But S. Ambrose saithe , The Omnipotente Power of the Woorde , wherewith God made Heauen and Earthe , the same Omnipotente Power of the same woorde , he vseth nowe in the Consecration of the Sacramente . Therefore , saithe M. Hardinge , it muste néedes be geathered , he meante Transubstantiation , and Real Presence : as if without these newe fantasies , God coulde not be Omnipotente . I maye wel answeare these menne , as S. Ambrose vpon the like occasion sommetime answeared the wilful blindenesse of the Iewes : Ambros . De Noe & Arca. Atramentum vident : Spiritum Dei non vident : They see the Inke ( of the Letter written ) but the Sprite of God they see not : Euen so M. Hardinge , and others of that side weigh the woordes of S. Ambrose : but his sense , and meaninge they weigh not .

Certainely God sheweth his Omnipotente Power , as wel in the Sacramente of Baptisme , as in the Sacramente of Thankesgeuinge . Here of I haue saide sommewhat , as occasion was offered , in my Former Replie to M. Harding . Leo saithe thus , Articulo . 5. Diuision . 4. Leo in Natiuitate Domini , Sermon . 5. Chrysosto . in Iohan . Homil. 24. Christus originem , quam sumpsit in Vtero Virginis , posuit in Fonte Baptismatis . Dedit Aquae , quod dedit Matri : Christe laide in the Fonte of Baptisme the same beginninge , that he tooke in the Virgins Wombe . He gaue the same preeminence to the Water , that he gaue to his Mother . Euen so Chrysostome , Angeli qui adfuerunt ( in Baptismo ) tam inenarrabilis operis modum minime possunt enarrare . Adfuerunt tantùm , & viderunt : nihil tamen operati sunt : Sed Pater tantùm , & Filius , & Spiritus Sanctus . The Angels , that were presente at the Baptisme , are not h●ble to vtter the manner of that vnspeakeable Woorke . They were Presente onely , and sawe : but they did nothinge : but onely the Father , the Sonne , and the Holy Ghoste .

Likewise he saithe , Chrysost. in Iohan . Homil. 24. Ex Spiritu , & sensibili Aqua omnia haec admirabilia , & humanam excedentia cogitationem , exoriuntur : Al these woonderful woorkes ( wrought in Baptisme ) so far excedinge the thought of man , springe of the Sprite , and of Sensible Water .

Thus the Holy Fathers vsed oftentimes to auance , and to magnifie the Holy Mysteries , the better to bringe theire Hearers to the déepe , and inwarde consideration of the same : August . Ad Bonifacium , Epist. 23 and therefore , as S. Augustine saithe , Sacramenta tantae rei , non nisi eiusdem rei vocabulo nuncuparunt : They expressed the Sacramenta of so greate a thinge , none otherwise , then by the name of the same thinge . So S. Paule saithe , 1. Cor. 10. Pachymer . in 4. Cap. Hierarch . S. Germanus . De Corpor. & Sangui . Christi Chrysostom . in Psalm . 50. The Rocke was Christe : So an other saithe , as I haue otherwheres alleged , The Oile is Christe : and an other , Manna erat Christus , qui descendit de Coelo : The Manna ( that rained in the Wildernesse ) was Christe , that came downe from Heauen . So saithe S. Chrysostome , reportinge the storie of Dauid : Accipiens Aquam allatam bibere noluit : Sed semetipsum reprehendit , & Domino eam libauit . Non enim Aqua erat , sed Sanguis : Dauid receiuinge of the Water , ( that his menne had gotten with greate daunger from the middes of theire enimies ) woulde not drinke of it : But founde faulte with him selfe , and powred it out vnto the Lorde : For it was not Water , but Bloude .

I beseche thée , 2. Reg. 23. good Christian Reader , marke wel these Woordes . The storie is cleare . It was in deede onely a Cuppe of Water , and nothinge els . Yet Chrysostome saith , It was Bloude : It was no Water .

In those dayes , it was no daunger , thus to saie . The people was instructed , and wel acquainted with this phrase , or manner of speache , and knewe the meaninge . They were taught , that the Rocke , the Oile , and the Manna in the Wildernesse , were onely Sacramentes of Christe : and that , notwithstandinge they were called by thy name of Christe , yet in déede , and in Substance they were not Christe .

Therefore I maye answeare M. Hardinge herein , as S. Augustine sommetime answeared the Pelagian Heretiques : August . Contra Iulianum , Lib. 1. Vobis Pelagianis nondum litigantibus , securiùs loquebantur Patres de his Articulis : Before that you Pelagians beganne to quarrel , the Fathers , and Doctours spake without feare , and freely of these Articles .

Athanasius saithe of the Arian Heretiques , Athanasi . Contra Arian . Sermon . 4. Incorporalia Corporaliter excipientes , quae probè dicta erant , interpretationibus deprauauerunt : Takinge Spiritual thinges in a Corporal , or Fleashely meaninge ( as doothe M. Hardinge , and other his felowes ) by theire interpretations they haue depraued the thinges , that were rightly spoken . S. Ambrose saithe of the Breads , and the Wine , Sunt , quae erant , & in aliud mutantur : They remaine the same , that they were , and are changed into an other thinge . Nowe is the filde woonne : M. Hardinge bloweth a Maigne Triumphe . Here , saithe he , Sir Defender , Construe me these Woordes , Soothely , good Reader , I distruste not greately , but this poore Defender might easily Construe these Wordes , were he neuer so simple a clerke . The Natural Creatures of the Breade , and Wine in the Supper of our Lord ( saith S. Ambrose ) remaine stil in Substance , as they were before : yet are they changed into an other thinge , that is to saie , they are made the Sacramente of the Body , and Bloude of Christe : whiche before they were not .

Notwithstandinge this shorte Construction , beinge cleare , and plaine , maye séeme sufficient , yet for that M. Hardinge so déepely apposeth vs , and willeth vs to Construe him these Wordes , wée wil bothe Construe , and Pars them too for his pleasure .

Therefore , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 80. to warrante our former Construction , S. Augustine saithe thus : Accedat Verbum ad Elementum : & fit Sacramentum : Let the Worde be added to the Elemente , Changed into an other thinge . or outwarde Creature : and it is made a Sacramente , that is to saie , an other thinge . Againe he saithe , Sacramenta sunt Signa rerum , Aliud existentia , Aliud Significantia : Sacramentes are Signes , or Tokens of thinges , beinge by Substance One thinge , August . Contra Maximi . Lib. 3. Cap. 2. and Signifieinge an other thinge . So saithe Chrysostome of the Water of Baptisme , Cùm hoc Elementum acceperit Spiritum Sanctum , fit Sacramentum : Et iam non erit Aqua Potationis , sed Sanctificationis : Non erit Aqua communis , sed Refectionis : Chrysostom . in Psalm 22. When this Creature of Water hath receiued the Holy Ghoste , it is made a Sacramente : and nowe it is not Water to drinke , but water to Sanctifie : Not common Water , but Water to Refreshe .

Thus the Elemente , or outwarde Creature bothe remaineth , and is changed : It remaineth in proper , & plaine kinde of speache : It is changed vnproperly , that is to saie , by the waie of a Sacramente , or a Mysterie . So M. Hardinges owne Glose saithe vpon the Decrées : De Con. Dist 2. Hoc est . In Glosae . Coeleste Sacramentum dicitur Corpus Christi , sed Impropriè . Vnde dicitur , Suo modo : Non rei veritate , sed Significante Mysterio : vt sit sensus , Vocatur Corpus Christi , id est , Significat Corpus Christi : The Heauenly Sacramente is called the Body of Christe , but vnproperly ( that is to saie , not in plaine , and simple manner of speache ) . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , It is so called after a sorte : that is , not in truthe of mater , but by a Mysterie signifieinge : that the sense maie be this , It is called the Body of Christe , that is to saie , It signifieth the Body of Christe . August . De Doctrina Christia . Lib. 2. Cap. 1. So saithe S. Augustine , De Signis differens , hoc dico , Ne quis in eis attendat , quòd sunt , sed potiùs , quòd Signa sunt , id est , quòd Significant : Intreatinge of Signes ( or Sacramentes ) thus I saie : Lette noman consider in them , that thei be in Substance , but rather , that they be Signes , that is to saie , that thei Signifie ( somme other thinge ) . In this sense , & meaninge S. Augustine saithe againe , Dominus ait , Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 4. Ipse ( Iohannes ) est Elias : Iohannes autem ipse ait , Ego non sum Elias . Rectè ergo Iohannes propriè respondit : Nam Dominus Figuratè : Our Lorde saide of Iohn the Baptiste : This is Elias : But Iohn him selfe saithe , I am not Elias . Therefore Iohn answeared wel in plaine manner of woordes : For our Lorde spake in a Figure . Thus in sundrie sortes of speache , Iohn is Elias : and the same Iohn is not Elian : and bothe are true .

But what better expositoure of S. Ambrose can we finde , then S. Ambrose him selfe ? I truste , M. Hardinge wil not saie , that so Holy a Father was a falsifier , and a lier , specially in declaringe his owne minde . Thus therefore he saithe : Ante Benedictionem Verborum Coelestium , Ambros . De ijs qui initiantur , Cap. 9. alia species nominatur : post Consecrationem , Corpus Christi Significatur . In comedendo , & potando , Carnem , & Sanguinem , quae pro nobis oblata sunt , Significamus . In Similitudinem accipis Sacramentum . Est Figura Corporis , Ambros . 1. Corinth . 11. Ambros . De Sacrament . Lib. 4. Cap. 4. & 5. & Sanguinis Domini . Similitudinem pretiosi Sanguinis bibis : Before the Blessinge of the Heauenly woordes , it is called an other Kinde : After the woordes of Consecration , the Body of Christe is Signified . In Eatinge , and Drinkinge , wee Signifie the Body , and Bloude , that were offered for vs . Thou receiuest the Sacramente for a Similitude , or for a likenesse . It is a Figure of the Body , and Bloude of our Lorde . Thou drinkest the likenesse of the pretious Bloude .

Thus like fourme of woordes the same S. Ambrose vseth of the Sacramente of Baptisme : Ambros . De Sacramen . Lib. 1. Cap. 5. Vidisti Aquam ? Sed non omnis Aqua sanat : Sed Aqua sanat , quae habet Gratiam Dei. Aliud est Elementum : Aliud Consecratio : Haste thou seene the Water ? But of Water healeth not . But that Water healeth , that hath the Grace of God . The Elemente ( or Creature of Water ) . One thinge : and the Consecration is an other thinge .

Thus the Breade remaineth : and thus it is changed . It remaineth in Substance : but it is changed in Mysterie .

But M. Hardinge heauily presseth these Woordes , Mutantur in Aliud : that is , saithe he , Changed into an other thinge . into a thinge of an other Substance . For by this phrase is signified a Substantial changinge , whiche aptely is called Transubstantiation . I will not here vse your courteous eloquence , M. Hardinge : nor saie vnto you , as you saie to others , I praie you , good Sir : but thus I saie , I praie you , M. Hardinge , who gaue you this rule ? who taught you this Lesson ? De Coelo est , an ex Hominibus ? Came it from Heauen , or is it of Menne ? Haue the Holy Fathers thus taught you , or is it onely you owne fantasie ? What Grammar , What Logique , What Philosophie , What Diuinitie euer tolde you , that , Aliud , euermore signifieth a thinge of an other Substance ? If ye haue an Authour , why comme you without him ? If it be onely of your selfe , why should wée beléeue you ?

If , Aliud , signifie onely a Substance , and nothinge els , why doothe S. Augustine saie , August . Contra M●●imi . Lib. 3. Cap. 12. as it is before alleged , Sacramenta sunt Signa terum , Aliud existentia , aliud Significantia ? Why saithe S. Augustine againe , Aliud est Sacramentum , Aliud Virtus Sacramenti ? Why saithe S. Ambrose , Aliud est Elementum , Aliud Consecratio ? August . in Iohan . Tracta . 26. Ambros . De Sacram . Lib. 1. ca. 5. For by your Diuinitie the Sacramente , the Fourme , the Consecration , be Accidentes onely , and maie not be taken for the Substance . Verily for ought , that I can learne , Aliud , is nothinge els , but Res alia , an other thinge , whether it be the Substance , or the Accidente . For , I thinke , ye haue no● forgotten the Olde rule , Vnumquodque in suo genere est quid .

Wée saie , The Nature , and Substance of the Breade , & Wine is not clearely changed , or consumed into Nothinge , as many haue dreamed in these later daies . Here M. Hardinge commeth roughly in , as his manner is , and saithe , ye belie vs : wee saie not so : God forebid . Thus he crieth out , before he be striken . Salomon saithe , Prouerb . 28. Impius fugit , nemine persequente : The gilty fleeth , before he be chased . For , notwithstandinge there be multitudes of folies in his Doctrine , yet with this folie wée charge him not . But whether any of his Felowes haue so saide , or no , 4. Senten . Dist. 11. Quidam . I reporte me to his Maister , Peter Lombarde . His woordes be these , Quid ergo fit de Substantia Panis , & Vini ? Illi dicunt , vel in praeiacentem materiam resolui , vel in nihilum redigi : What then becommeth of the Substance of the Breade , and Wine ? They saie , either that it is resolued into the mater , that was before , or els , that it is consumed into nothinge .

Mary God forebid , saithe M. Hardinge . So coye , and careful he is , for his holy Fourmes , and his kingedome of Accidentes . He saithe , The whole Substance of the Breade is cleane abolished , not one parte thereof remaininge : yet maie it not be turned into nothinge . And , as if the mater were wel woorthe somewhat , be assureth the same sadly with a greate detestation , God forebid . Hereof somethinge might be saide , if it were any thinge woorthe the hearinge . But , good Reader , thou shalt lose nothinge by the silence : For , I assure thée , verily it is woorthe nothinge .

Yet M. Hardinge firste geueth vs his courteous menti : and afterwarde , in his familiar manner , chargeth vs by plaine termes with a lie : and suddainely crieth out , as he saith , beyonde the modestie of his natural disposition , What is Iuggsinge : what is Lieinge : what is Falsehedde : what is Falsifieinge : what is wickednesse of Falsaries , if this be not ? I might saie : O Sirs , Holde the man . Good Christian Reader , in al these Whattes , thou wilte happily thinke , there should be somewhat . Now be it , in déede it is but a pangue of M. Hardinges Rhetorique : leste thou shouldest thinke , that hauinge spente so many waste woordes , in the ende he had saide nothinge .

But , what is the mater , M. Hardinge ? What moueth you , to make this piteous outcrie ? For soothe bicause wée saie , The Breade , and Wine remaine the same , they were before . But these be S. Ambroses owne woordes : they be not ours : wée make them not : wée change them not : but reporte them simply , as wée finde them . As they were written in Latine by the Authour , these they are : ( Panis , & Vinum ) sunt , quae erant , Changed into an other thinge . & in aliud mutantur : The Breade and Wine are the same , that they were : and are changed into an other thinge . Therefore , it appeareth , al these Exclamations , of what is lugglinge ? what is Lieinge ? &c. perteine vnto S. Ambrose the Authoure hereof , and not vnto vs .

Nowe , for so mutche as it hath pleased M. Hardinge so earnestly to calle vs foorthe to construe him these woordes , I beséeche thée , good Reader , marke wel , what Constructions he , and his Felowes haue imagined , & fansied vpon the same . Firste of al Lanfrancus , the chiefest Champion of that side , thought it the wisest waie , Lanfrancur De Eucharist . vtterly to denie these woordes , and to saie , They were neuer written by S. Ambrose . For thus he stormeth against Berengarius : O mentem amentem : O hominem impudenter mentientem : O puniendam temeritatem : Ambrosium accire testem praesumis , quòd Panis , & Vinum Altaris , per Consecrationem non definant esse , quoderant , sed commutentur in aliud , quod non erant ? Et quidem si de Sacramentis , seu de coeteris , de quibus Ambrosius scripsit , omnes reuoluat Libros , quos Ecclesia in vsu nunc habet , tale quid ab Ambrosio dictum , taliterque expositum , nusquam repetire valebit : O madde minde : O impudent Lier : O rashenesse woorthy of pounishement : Darest thou to allege S. Ambrose for a witnesse , that the Breade and Wine of the Aultar leaue not by Consecration , to be that they were before : but are changed into an other thinge , that they were not ? Nowe truely if he peruse al the Bookes , that S. Ambrose hath written , either of the Sacramentes , or of other maters , I meane sutche Bookes , as the Churche hath no we in vse , he shal neuer finde any thinge so written by S. Ambrose , and so expounded .

But M Hardinge thought , he might not wel thus doo without empeachement of his modestie . For the very same woordes are to be founde extante , & apparent in euery Booke . Therefore allowinge the woordes , he thought it beste to folowe his Maister Peter à Soto , and to delaie , & qualifie the same with some Construction .

Thus therefore he saithe , Sunt , quae erant , & in aliud mutantur : Doothe it not folowe by good Logike , Mutata sunt , ergo sunt : They be changed : Ergo they be ? In Louaine , perhaps : In other Vniuersities , I doubte , whether it haue hitherto benne allowed , or no. For by this Logique , where as S. Hierome saithe , Superbia mutata est in Humilitatem , Hieronym . in Matthae . Cap. 18. M. Hardinge maie conclude , as he doothe nowe , Superbia mutata est : Ergo est : Pride is changed into Humilitie : Ergo Pride is , Roman 1. or remaineth stil . And , whereas S. Paule saithe , Commutauerunt Veritatem Dei in mendacium : By this Logique M. Hardinge maie saie , Mutata est , Ergo est : The Truthe of God is changed into a Lie : Ergo , It is Goddes Truthe stil notwithstandinge .

And to take further viewe of M. Hardinges Construction , thus he saithe , Panis , & Vinum sunt , quae erant , id est , qualia erant : The Breade , and Wine be in Substance the same , that they were : that is to saie , They be in qualities , or Accidentes , as they were . They are changed , in Aliud , into an other thinge : that is , Into an other Substance . Thei are Changed : that is , Thei are Transubstantiate . They be : that is : They be not : That they were : that is , that they were not . Thus Substance , is Accidens : Accidens , is Substance : Beinge , is not Beinge : Not Beinge , is Beinge : Remaininge , is not Remaininge : Changinge , is not Changinge : And the same thinge , is not the same .

With sutche prety Constructions M. Hardinge can teache vs to expounde the Anciente Fathers . These be their keies of the Kingedome of Heauen . Herewith there is nothinge so cluse shutte , but they can open it : There is nothinge so open , but they can shut it . Here might I conclude with M. Hardinges owne woordes , and rightly saie , as he saithe , what is Iugglinge ? what is Lieinge ? &c. But it shal be best to leaue his owne eloquence , and modestie to him selfe .

M. Hardinge .

The places of Gelasius , and Theodorite in apparence seeme to make mutche for you , and more then any other Doctours . And though these twoo doctours were altogeather of this opinion , that after Consecration the Substance of Breade and Wine remaineth , what reason is it , they onely in so greate a matter shoulde preiudicate all other Holy and learned Fathers , and whiche is more , the general Councels , and * * Vntruthe . For this fantasie was neuer allowed through the whole Churche of Christe : as it shal appeare . the whole Churche of Christe ? The Catholike Faithe we finde in them bothe within fewe lines after the woordes of this Defenders obiection , firste by Gelasius thus expressed : Sacramenta Corporis & Sanguinis Domìni in diuinam transeunt , Spiritu Sancto perficiente , Substantiam : permanent tamen in suae proprietate Naturae ; The Sacramentes ( saithe he ) of the Body and Bloude of our Lorde passe ouer into a Diuine Substance by the woorkinge of the Holy Ghoste . Yet remaine they stil in the proprietie of their owne Nature . By diuine Substance he meaneth the ●leas he of our Lorde assumpted of the Woorde . The truthe confessed by Theodorit' Dialog. 1. Nowe saithe Theodoritus , the Mystical tokens , be vnderstanded to be the thinges , whiche they be made , and are beleeued , and adored , as beinge the thinges whiche they are beleeued to be . But euery man knoweth they are beleeued to be made the Body and Bloude of Christe , and therefore be duely adored and woorshipped : so after the minde of Theodorite , they be the Body and Bloude in deede , not Breade and Wine , as before Consecration .

The Substance or Nature of Breade and Wine ceasseth not to be , saithe Gelasius : ( Whereas your interpreter addeth of his owne heade this woorde So ) † † Vntruthe . Without question it is so . For the woordes be , Non definit esse Substantia Panis . we telle you and him , in Theodorite it us not so . Ergo it remaineth , saye ye . Wee graunte the Substance , or Nature of Breade and Wine remaineth after Consecration , so as Gelasius vnderstandeth by the name of Substance , * * A peeuishe vntruthe . It had benne too great a folie . whiche is nothinge elles but the very Nature ( as commonly we speake of Nature ) that is to saie , Nature i● Gelasius , and Substance in Theodorite is taken for naturall propertie . Dialog. 2. In Logi●s Cap. 23. the natural properties of Breade and Wine : for so he expoundeth him selfe afterwarde , sayinge , Yet they remaine in the proprietie of their owne Nature . They remaine ( likewise saithe Theodorite ) in their Former Substance , Figure , and Forme , and be seene and felte as before .

And there to maie Damascenes definition of Substance perteine , who saieth , that Substance is euery that , what so euer by it selfe is beinge , and hath not beinge in an other . And therefore † † Vntruthe manifeste : Reade the Answeare . sht be the Accidentes haue their beinge by themselues in this Sacramente , and be not staied on any other thinge : in this consideration , Substance of them maye so be reported , as if them selues were Substance . Whiche * * Substantial consistinge of Accidentes : O folie . substantiall consistinge of the Accidentes lackinge a propre name , because it is the mighty and extraordinary hande of God , is also extraordinarely called of Gelasius , and Theodoritus by the name , whiche the thinge had before , to witte , the Substance of Breade and Wine . And no maruell if they spake not in † † O exacte folie . A heape of Vntruthes without sense . most exacte wise of this secrete pointe of Doctrine ( of Fourmes and Accidentes ) at what time it was not as yet by the Churche so clerely , and fully discussed : ( as it was neuer pet vntil this daie ) . But sithens of the Schoolemen ( ignorante and Fantastical Sophisters ) it hathe benne more distinctly named the existence of Accidentes without their Subiect , that is , without an other thinge whereupon they mighte staye .

Againe whereas Breade and Wine by theire nature doo nourrishe , * * Vntruthe . M. Harding by one dreame expoundeth another . this vertue also remaineth in the Accidentes geuen to them by the Almightie Woorde of God , who changeth Creatures to theire betteringe , not to theire impairinge . This was the meaninge of Gelasius , and The doritus , where they saye , the Breade and Wine to remaine in theire Former Substance or Nature . Otherwise shoulde they be contrary to them selues , as they , whiche also doo acknowledge the nature of Breade and Wine to be changed into a more excellent Substance , by the workefull woorde of Christe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

As for these two Fathers , Gelasius , and Theodoretus , notwithstandinge M. Hardinge would saeme to make smal accoumpte of them , for that they be , as he saithe , but onely twoo , yet he rather catcheth holde in somme darke , or doubteful woorde by them vttered , then he woulde séeme vtterly to geue them ouer . Gelasius saithe , The Sacramentes passe ouer into a Diuine Substance : If he had saide , They passe ouer into a Diuine Accidente , it woulde somewhat better haue shadowed these mennes purpose . But other Diuine Substance M. Hardinge can imagine none , sauinge onely Christes Body Substantially , and Really conteined vnder the Fourmes of Breade and Wine . And this fantaste , notwithstandinge Gelasius neuer knewe it , muste néedes be allowed againste , al , that Gelasius him selfe can saie to the contrarie .

But if M. Hardinge had better remembred the placinge , and meaninge of this woorde , Substantia , and , that as wel Gelasius , as other learned Fathers vse the same as Diuines , and not as Natural Philosophers , he should easily haue founde his owne errour .

It maie please thée therefore , good Christian Reader , to vnderstande , That the Promise of Mercie , The Grace of God , Our Faithe in Christe , Goddes Woorde , & the Holy Sacramentes , that are the aides , and healpes of our Faithe , are of the Holy Anciente Writers called a Substance . Cyprian . De Simplicit . Praelatorum . So S. Cyprian saithe , Substantiam Salutis amittunt : They lose the Substance of Saluation . So saithe Irenaeus , Quamuis sint in Operibus materialibus , tamen putant se non amittere Spiritualem Substantiam : Although they liue in worldly , Irenae . lia . ca. 1. In eodem Cap. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Chrysostom . in Epist. ad Hebrae . Homil. 21. or filthy woorkes , yet wey thinke , they lose not the Spiritual Substance . Likewise againe he saithe of the folies , and Vanities of the Valentinian Heretiques , Insubstantiuum ostendit figmentum ipsorum : He shewed , that theire Inuentions , and Diuises were voide of Substance . So S. Chrysostome , Fides dat Substantiam rebus : Imò potiùs non dat Substantiam , sed ipsa est Substantia earum : Faithe geueth thinges theire Substance : Or rather it geueth not Substance vnto thinges , but it selfe is theire Substance . In like manner saithe Tertullian , Deus Idololatriae Substantiam cohibuit : Tertull. Aduersus Marcion . Lib. 2. God forebade the Substance of Idolatrie . So saithe Abbate Panormitane , Continentia non est de Substantia Ordinis : Single , or lose life is not of the Substance of Holy Orders . And an other saithe , Abbas Extrae . De Clericis Coniugatis . Cum Olim. Pupilla Oculi . Pag. 14. Enim , non est de Substantia Consecrationis : This woorde , Enim , is not of the Substance of Consecration . By these , and other like examples , it maie appeare , that in cases of Religion , substance is not euermore taken for Christes Body couered with Accidentes .

If al these examples wil not yet suffise , to growe neare to our purpose , S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . De Elia , & Ieiunio . Cap. 3. Quid est Ieiunium , nisi Substantia , & Imago Coelestis ? What is Fastinge , but a Substance , and an Image of Heauen ?

Likewise Tertullian calleth Baptisme , Diuinam Substantiam , A Diuine Substance . His woordes be these : Tertull. De Baptismo . This is one of Tertullians errours . Quid festinat innocens aetas ad Remissionem Peccatorum ? Cautiùs agitur in saecularibus : Vt cui Substantia terrena non creditur , Diuina credatur ? Why hasteth this innocente age ( he meaneth Children ) to the Remission of their Sinnes ? Wee are mutche more wary in worldely thinges . Is it meete , wee shoulde committe the Sacramente of Baptisme , whiche is a Diuine Substance , vnto them , vnto whome wee woulde not committe the Substance of the Earthe ?

By these wee maie see , in what sense Gelasius calleth the Sacramente of Thankesgeuinge , A Diuine Substance . Verily none otherwise , but euen as S. Ambrose calleth Fastinge , A heauenly Substance . And as Tertullian calleth the Sacramente of Baptisme , by the same woordes , A Diuine Substance . And what can al this auaile M. Hardinge , to proue , either his Transubstantiation , or his Real Presence ?

But why dealeth he so doubly ? Wherefore dissembleth he the woordes of Gelasius , that immediatly in the same sentence wente before ? For Gelasius him selfe so clearely , and plainely expoundeth his owne minde , as no Louanian Doctour can doo it better . Getasius contra Eutychetem . Thus he saithe , Non desinit esse Substantia Panis , vel Natura Vini . Et certè Imago . & similitudo Corporis , & Sanguinis Christi in Actione Mysteriorum celebratur : There leaueth not to be the Substance of Breade , or the Nature of Wine . And in deede the Image , or Representation , and likenesse of the Body , and Bloude of Christe is published in the Ministration of the Mysteries . And againe in the woordes nexte immediately folowinge , Sacramenta transeunt in Diuinam , Spiritu Sancto perficiente , Substantiam : permanent tamen in suae proprietate Naturae : The Sacramentes , by the woorkinge of the Holy Ghoste , passe into a Diuine Substance : yet notwithstandinge , they remaine stil in the propertie of their owne Nature .

This Image , or Representation , or Likenesse , or Memorie of the Body , and Bloude of Christe is it , that Gelasius calleth the Diuine Substance .

And in like sense S. Augustine calleth the same , Coelestem Panem : The Heauenly Breade . Thus he writeth , as he is alleged by Gratian : Coelestis Panis , De Con. Dist. 2. Hoc est . quod dici●us . qui Caro Christi est , suo modo vocatur Corpus Christi : cùm reuera sit Sacramentum Corporis Christi : Cyprian . De vnctione Chrismatis . The Heauenly Breade ( of the Sacramente ) whiche is the Fleashe of Christe , after his sorte is called the Body of Christe : whereas in deede it is the Sacramente of Christes Body . Likewise saithe S. Cyprian , Diuersa Nomina , vel Species ad Vnam reducuntur Essentiam : & Significantia , & Significata eisdem vocabulis censentur : Diuerse names , or kindes ( of thinges ) are brought vnto one Substance : That is to saie , The thinges , that doo Signifie , and the thinges , that be Signified , are reckened bothe by one name : That is , as y Body of Christe is called Breade : so is the Breade called Christes Body .

To be shorte , as Gelasius calleth the Sacramente , A Diuine Substance , euen so Gratian saithe to the same purpose , Quidam non improbabiliter exponunt hoc loco , Carnis , De Con. Dist. 2. Species . & Sanguinis Veritatem , ipsam earundem efficientiam , id est , peccatorum Remissionem : Somme there be , that in this place , not without good reason , by these woordes , The Truthe of Christes Fleashe , and Bloude , vnderstande the Effecte , or woorkinge of the same , that is to saie , The Remission of Sinnes .

For answeare vnto Theodoretus , it maie please thée , for sparinge of time , to reade my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . Arti. S. Diul . 26. Et Articul. 10 Diuis. 4. It is true , that Theodorete saithe , The Mystical Tokens , that is to saie , the Sacramentes , be vnderstoode to be the thinges , whiche they be made , and be beleeued : That is , That they be Mysteries of Christes Body : or that in a Mysterie , or by waie of a Sacramente , they be the Body of Christe . But it is true also , that he saithe , bothe immediately folowinge in the same place , and also before : Signa Mystica post Sanctificationem non recedunt à Natura sua : Theodoret. in 2. Dialogo , Inconfusus . August contra Maximin . Lib. 3. Cap. 22. Manent enim in Priori Substantia , & Figura , & Forma : The Mystical Tokens ( or Sacramentes ) after the Consecration departe not from their owne Nature . For they remaine stil in their Former Substance , and Fourme , and Figure . And , as I haue often alleged orte of S. Augustine , In Sacramentis videndum est , non quid sint , sed quid Significent : In Sacramentes wee muste consider , not what they be ( in déede , and of theire owne Nature ) but what they Signifie . So saithe S. Chrysostome , Antequàm Panis Sanctificetur , Panem eum nominamus : Chrysostom . Ad Caesarium . Diuina autem illum Gratia sanctificante , mediante Sacerdote , liberatus est quidem ab appellatione Panis : Dignus autem habitus est Dominici Corporis appellatione : Etiamsi Natura Panis in illo remanserit : Before the Breade be Sanctified , wee calle it Breade . But after that by the meane of the Prieste the Heauenly Grace hath hallowed it , it is discharged from the name of Breade , and is vouchesaued to be called by the name of our Lordes Body : notwithstandinge the Nature of the Breade remaine stil . So saith Theodorete him selfe , Seruator noster commutauit nomina : & Corpori quidem Symboli nomen dedit , Theodoret , Dialo. 1. Symbolo verò nomen Corporis : Our Saueour hath made exchange of the names : And vnto his Body hath geuen the name of ( Breade , whiche is ) the Sacrament : and vnto the Sacrament hath geuen the name of his Body .

Neuerthelesse , notwithstandinge these woordes bothe of Theodoretus , and of Gelasius , ( The Substance of Breade , and Wine , after the woordes of Consecration remaineth stil ) be so plaine , Nature : Vertue . that noman without blusshinge maie denie them , Yet hathe M. Hardinge one good shifte leaste in stoare . The Substance , saith be , sommetimes is vsed for the Accidente : euen as discretely , and to so good pourpose , as if he had said , Fire is Water , or , Light is Darkenesse . And so by this Construction , Substance sommetimes is no Substance . This is M. Hardinges owne peculiare Diuinitie , without the witnesse of any of al the Learned Fathers , Gréeke , or Latine , one , or other . For , good Reader , thou maiste not thinke , that any man , either wel aduised , or learned , woulde saie the like .

The Fathers , saithe he , spake not hereof in moste exacte wise . Perhaps they had not Learned theire Logique Rules , or vnderstoode not the Principles of Natural reason , no not so mutche , as a childe maie easily vnderstand : but vsed Substance for Accidentes : Accidentes for Substance : and one thinge for an other : as menne that knewe not , what they saide . In deede , M. Hardinge , this is not , as you saie , Exacte wise : It séemeth rather to be , Exacte folie .

Ye adde further , Damascene saithe , Substance is euery that , what so euer by it selfe is beinge , and hathe no beinge in an other . What needed you here to allege Damascene ? Children know , that Aristotle , and others longe before him wrote the like . Notwithstandinge to this Maior ye set a Minor of your owne . These Accidentes , saie you , haue theire beinge by them selues : and be not staide in any other thinge . O , M. Hardinge , this thinge woulde haue had somme better proufe . Why allege you not , either S. Augustine , or S. Ambrose , or S. Chrysostome , or S. Hierome , or somme other Catholique Father to this pourpose ? Your simple woorde is no good warrante . Ye proue that thinge , that is Vniuersally confessed , and needed no proufe : but that ye shoulde proue , ye leaue vnproued . This in Sophistrie is called Petitio Principij . The simplest shifte , that can be vsed .

Damascenes Maior is Confessed , and true . But your Minor , and Conclusion , are bothe Vntrue . For whereas you saie of your selfe : The Accidentes haue their Beinge by them selues : wee saie , the same Accidentes haue theire Beinge in the Breade , and Wine , as in theire Subiectes . Sundrie of your owne felowes haue saide , De Con. dis. 2. Species . In gloss . Accidentia illa sunt in Aere , tanquam in Subiecto : These Accidentes are in the Aire , as in theire Subiecte . Therefore by theire iudgement , they haue not theire Beinge , as you saie , by them selues . You maie also remember , that your Maister him selfe neuer durste precisely to determine this mater : but onely passeth it ouer darkely , and doubtefully , as beinge not wel resolued , what to saie . His wordes be these : Mihi videtur fatendum , Accidentia illa existere sine Subiecto : It seemeth vnto me , 4. Senten . dis. 22 Si autem . or , es I can gheasse , these Accidentes haue theire Being without a Subiect .

M. Hardinge .

Wee muste 〈◊〉 beholde , saithe Euthymius , a Greeke Doctour , the Nature of the thinges , whiche be set before vs : * * What is the Vertue , and Power of your Accidente● . but the vertue , or power of them .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Euthymius , although one of the meanest Doctours , saithe right wel , and as the Learned Fathers saide before him . But , M. Hardinge , doo you take your Authours at al aduentures , as they comme to hande : or doo you consider , what they saie● Tel vs . I beseech you in your fantasie , what are those thingꝭ that Euthymius saithe , are set before vs ? Whether are they the Body , and Bloude of Christe , or clarour Accidentes ? If it be Christes very Body and Bloude substantially , Really , & in deede , Why shoulde wee not consider the Nature of them ? what haue they offended you ? Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 4. Cap. 12. Or what imperfection finde you in them ? Cyrillus saithe , Caro Christi Natura viuifica est : The Fleashe of Christe by Nature hath power to geue Life . Came not to destroie And Christe him selfe saithe , My Fleashe is Verily Meate : and My Bloude is Verily Drinke . Therefore the Nature hereof is wel woorthy to be considered . But if there be nothinge there set foorthe , but onely your bare , and naked Accidentes , What Power , What Vertue is there in them ? What Doctoure , or Father euer taught vs , that wee should haue Remission of Sinne , and be saued by your Accidentes ?

But , as I saide , Euthymius writeth wel , folowinge herein the Doctrine of the Ancient Learned Fathers . Basilius De Spiritu Sancto . Cap. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 S. Basile saithe , Si qua Gratia est in Aqua , ea non est ex Natura Aquae , sed ex praesentia Spiritus : If there be any Grace in the Water , ( of Baptisme ) it is not of the Nature of the Water , but of the presence of the Sprite . Cyprian speaking of the Oile , saith thus : Sanctificatis Elementis iam non propria Natura praebet effectum : Sed Virtus Diuina potentiùs operatur : It is not Nature , that geueth effecte , or force vnto the Elementes beinge Sanctified : but the Diuine Power woorketh more mightily . Cyprian . De Vnction . Chrismatis . So saithe S. Chrysostome . Petra erat Christus : Non enian ipsius Petrae Natura Aqua scatutiebat : Sed alia quaedam Spiritualis Petra omnia operata est , hoc est . Christus : The Rocke was Christ . For it was not by the Nature of the Rocke , Chrysost. 1. Cori. Homil. 18. that the Water gusshed out : but a certaine other Spiritual Rocke wrought al these thinges , that is to saie , Christe . In like manner the Anciente Father Origen speakinge of the Power , Origen in Matt. Cap. 15. and Vertue of Our Lordes Supper saithe thus , Illud , quod Sanctificatur per Verbum Dei , & per Obsecrationem , non suapte Natura sanctificat vtentem : The thinge , that is Sanctified by the Woorde of God , and by Praier , sanctifieth not him , that vseth it , by the Nature of it selfe . By these , and other like aduertisementes , these Godly Fathers meante to withdrawe Our mindes from the outwarde corruptible Creatures , to the Spiritual , and Inwarde vnderstandinge of the Sacramentes . Therefore Euthymius in the same place saithe , Panis habet Similitudinem quandam ad Corpus , Euthymius in Math. Cap. 64. & Vinum ad Sanguinem : The Breade hathe a certaine Likenesse vnto the Body , and the Wine a certaine Likenesse vnto the Bloude .

M. Hardinge .

When it pleased our Sauiour Christe at his laste Supper to institute this blessed Sacramente , at whiche he toke Bread and Wine , The Doctrine of transubstantiation . Li. 83. quae . and turned them into his Body and Bloude , he would in such wise aduance these Creatures to a muche excellenter condition , as they shoulde lose no whit of their former Vertues * * Vntruthe , fon le and Childishe . As though Christe had died to saue Accidentes . For the sonne of man came not to destroie , but to saue : and , as S. Augustine saithe , is not cause that any thinge tend vnto not beinge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

At the laste M. Hardinge hathe founde somme Scripture : and that , God wote , ful aptely he applteth to serue his pourpose . The Sonne of Man , saithe be , came not to destroie , but to saue : Ergo , The Breade , and Wine lose no white of theire Former Vertues . Luke 9.

Here , I beséeche you , M. Hardinge , what came the Sonne of Man to saue ? Muste wee beléeue , be came from Heauen , to Saue your Accidentes ? Was this the cause of Chrictes comming ? It this the Religion ye haue Learned in Louaine ? S. 1. Corin. 6. Paule saithe , Nenquid de bubus cura est Deo ? Hathe God any special care for Oxen ? Might not one mutch beter saie , Hathe God any care for your Fourmes , for your Shewes , for your empty Accidentes ?

Perhaps ye wil saie , I presse you ouer heauily . Ye meante , that Christe came to Saue Breade , and Wine . How be it , so ye cannot saie : For by your Doctrine the Nature , and Substance of the Breade , and the Wine , by the comminge , and presence of Christ , are quite abolished , nothinge remaining , but onely the Accidentes . But be it , that Christe came , to Saue these Creatures , Then is your Religion mutche like vnto the Diuinitie of the Olde Heretiques called the Manichees . Change in Accidentes . Augustin . ad Quoduustdeum . Of them S. Augustine writeth thus : Herbas , atque arbores sic putant viuere , vt ea & sentire credant , & dolere , cùm laeduntur : nec aliquid inde sine cruciatu corum quenquam posse vellere : They thinke , that Herbes , and Trees haue life , so for foorthe , that they beleeue , they haue sense , and feelinge , and suffer gnefe and paine , when they be hurte : Ibidem . and that noman can pul , or plucke ought from them without theire smarte : And againe he saithe , Nec oua sumunt , quasi & ipsa , cùm frangunturt , expirent : They Eate no Bgges , imagining , that , when they be broken , theire life , or Soule passethe from them .

These be mere folies , M. Hardinge . Christe him selfe saithe , Hée came to Saue , not your Accidentes , but Sinners : not Breade , and Wine , but the thing , that was loste . And wil ye tel vs , that your Accidentes were loste ? Or that Breade , and Wine were sutche sinful Creatures ?

O , M. Hardinge , haue more reuerence to Goddes Woorde . It is Holy : It is it , whereby you shal be Iudged . Haue better regarde hencefoorthe , to that ye write . Christe him selfe saithe , Filius Hominis non venit , Luke . ● vt perdat Animas Hominum , sed vt seruer : The Sonne of Man came not to destroie the Soules of men , but to Saue them . Here in fauoure of your Accidentes , ye haue leafte out the Soules of Menne , whiche was the knot of the whole . And so there muste needes appeare in you , either grosse ignorance , or wilful corruption .

M. Hardinge .

Seeinge then there is a change by al consent , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , euidente , and sensible Reade the Answeare . and certaine it is that the change is not in the Accidentes , because wee see them remaine as they were before , Change in Substance . and God deceiueth not our lenses in their true and proper obiecte , whiche is colour , taste , smel , &c. It musts needes be , that the change be in substance , * * Vntruthe , trifinge , and Sophistical . For Substance is perceiued by the senses , although by meane of the Accidentes . whiche is to sense incomprehensible .

The B. of Sarisburie .

There is a change in the Bread , saith M. Harding : But not in the Accidentes thereof : Ergo , in the Substance . In like order of reason he might haue saide , It is not a Fearnbushe , Ergo , it is a Foxe . Ye maie not looke , M. Hardinge , to steale thus awaie with so simple Sophismes . This poore shifte emonge Children is called Petitio Principij .

Your Minor , wherein standeth the whole doubte , and whiche by somme Authoritie , or shewe of reason , one waie , or other , ye should haue proued true , ye haue paste it steily ouer without any manner of prouse at al , and presume it onely to be true . And so the whole weight hereof standeth not by Truthe , or Reason : but hangeth onely by presumption .

For what Doctoure , or Father euer tolde you , or made you so certaine , that in the Breade there is no change touching the Accidentes ? Ye saie , your senses tel you , that the Accidentes remaine stil , as they were before . And the same senses also tel you , as S. Augustine saithe , that the Substance of the Breade remaineth stil , Ad Infantes : Quod vide●is Panis est : quod etiam oculi renuntiant . Chrysost. in Mas. Homi. 83. as it was before . But wil you so suddainely forsake your olde Lesson ? Wil you nowe put this mater in Compromisse to your senses ? Howe often , and how sadly haue you tolde vs , that these be cases of Onely Faithe , and that in the Iudgemente hereof , bothe Sense , and Reason muste be abandoned ? And haue you forgotten that Chrysostome saith , Nihil sensibile traditum nobis est à Christo Quaecùnque Christus tradidit , insensibilia sunt : There is no sensible thing deliuered vnto vs by Christe ( in these Mysteries ) . And againe , What so euer thinges Christe hath geeuen vs , they are vnsensible . If they be thinges vtterly vnsensible , how then can they be iudged by your senses ? Why comme ye not foorthe with the Learned Doctours , and Catholique Fathers , of whom , ye saie , ye haue sutche plentie . If it be true , as you saie , Change in Accidentes . that there is no change in Accidente , why is it not proued ? If it be ralse , why is it auouched ? Tel vs , howe longe shal wee be bounde to your bare woorde ?

Verily , S. Augustine woulde haue tolde you , that this change is in Accidente , Augustin ad Bonifacium Epist. 23. and not in Substance . For thus he saith , as it hathe benne often remembred , Nisi Sacramenta Similitudinem quandam haberent earum rerum , quarum Sacramenta sunt , Omninò Sacramenta non essent . Ex hac autem Similitudine plaerunque rerunt ipsaeum nomina accipiunt : Onlesse Sacramentes had certaine likenesse of the thinges , of whiche they be Sacramentes , then in deede they were no Sacramentes . And of this likenesse oftentimes they beare the names of the thinges them selues . In eadem Episin . Againe he saithe , Secundum quendam modum Sacramentura Corporis Christi Corpus Christi est : The Sacrament of Christes Body after a certaine manner is Christes Body . Augustin contra Adimantum Cap. 12. And againe , Non dubitauit Dominus dicere , Hoc est Corpus meum , cùm daret Signum Corporis sui : Our Lorde doubted not to saie , This is my Body , when he geue a token of his Body . Likewise saithe Tertullian , expounding , & openinge the meaning of Christes woordes . Hoc est Corpus meum , Hoc est , Figura Corporis mei : This is my Body , that is to saie , Tertull. contra Marcionem li. 4. This is a Figure of my Body . You knowe , M. Hardinge , that Modus , Simile , Dissimile , Signum , and Figura , be in the Predicamente of Qualitie : and therefore perteine to Accidente , and not to Substance .

So Chrysosstome . where as he amplifieth the Change of the Breade in the Sacramente of Thankesgeuinge , he addeth inmediately withal , Sic etiam in Baptismo : Chrysot . in Mat. Homi. 13. Ambros . De Sacrament , Li. 4. Cap. 4. Euen so is it , that is to saie , The like change there is in the Water of Baptisme , In these Mutations the Substance remaineth stil : But the Respecte , or Qualitie , or Accidente is changed . And this is it , that S. Ambrose saide before , Sunt , quae erant : & in aliud mutantur ( In Substance ) they are the same , they were before : But ( in Accidente , or Qualitie ) they are turned into an other thinge .

M. Hardinge .

And here wee putte you in minde of your falsefieinge of Theodorites woordes , Theodrite falsefied by the Defender . in that ye make him to saie in your Englishe , The Mystical Signes to remaine in their former Substance , Fourme and Kinde , where he saithe * * Vntruthe . Euen so he faith . Otherwise M. Hardinge hathe a Substance without Kinde . not so , but in theire former Substance , Figure and Shape . Ye knowe pardy , there is greate difference betweene the Kinde of a thinge , and his Shape . The oftener ye vse that falsebed , as ye vse it very often , the more shal ye be espied to be false teachers , and growe out of credite , where truthe is loued .

The B. of Sarisburie .

If there be any falsehoode , or faulte herein , by your owne Confession , it is the Interpreters , and not the Authours . You knowe wel , Our contention is not of the Shape of Breade , but of the Substance . Theodoretus saith , The Breade departeth not from his owne Nature , but remaineth stil in the former Substance , Figure , and Fourme : Sate you , as Theodoretus saithe : Confesse plainely , as he doothe , that the Substance of the Breade remaineth stil , and , with good leaue , take the Shape vnto your selfe .

And yet I sée no greate cause , why ye should so mightily crie out , False Teachers , Falsehed , Falsifieinge , for that the Interpreter hathe expounded this Latine woorde , Forma , by this Englishe woorde , Kinde , For , as it is proued before by sundrie examples more at large , ●efore , in the seconde Part. I. ca. 1. Diuision . Athana . De Definitionib . in the Anciente Fathers these two woordes , Forma , and Natura , are often vsed for one thinge . Athanasius saithe , Natura , Essentia , Genus . Forma . vnum sunt : Nature . substance , Kind , and Forme be al one . Certainely , if the very Substance of the Breade should remaine , as Theodoretus saithe , and yet the Kinde of the Breade should not remaine , it were awo●nder . For , as there is no Kinde without Substance , So is there no Substance without Kinde .

M. Hardinge .

The woordes whiche ye recite out of S. Augustines Sermon Ad Infantes , we finde in Bedevpon the tenthe Chapter of the firste Epistle to the Corinthians . The whole place is this : This thinge which ye see in the Aulter of God , ye haue sene it also in the night paste . But what it was , what it meaneth , the Sacramente of how great a thinge it conteineth , Answeare to the place alleged out of S. Augustine . as yet ye haue not heard . That then whiche ye sawe , is Breade and Chalice , whiche euen your eyes tel you . But that whiche your Faithe requireth to be instructed of , Breade is the Body of Christe , the Chalice his Bloude . If the Substance of Breade remained , as before Consecration , what neede had they to learne , what it were ? For of them selues , they might know we the thinges proponed to be Breade , and Wine . But S. Augustine , ye saie , calleth that they sawe Breade , and Wine . Yea Sir , so it was , so farre as theire eies tolde them . But what their faithe ought to tel them , he instructeth them , saieinge : Breade to witte , is the Holy Body of Christe . To this Construction muste wee stande , by S. Augustine him selfe so set foorthe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

S. Augustines woordes are plaine yenough : howe so euer it like you to shaowe them with your Gloses . Thus he saithe , Quod vidistis , Panis est , & Calix : quod vobis etiam Oculi vestri renuntiant : The thinge , that you sawe , is the Breade , and the Cuppe : whiche thinge your eies doo reporte vnto you . Where also maie be noted , as by the waie , that S. Augustine , contrarie to your Doctrine , M. Hardinge , referreth the Iudgmente hereof to the reporte , and trial of the senses . And againe he saithe of him selfe in the like case , Vereor , ne ipsis sensibus nostris facere videamur iniuriam , Augustin . ad Dardanum , Epist. 57. quando id loquendo suademus , vbi omnes Vires , officiumque Sermonis facillimè superat euidentia Veritatis : I feare me , wee shoulde doo wronge vnto our Senses , if wee would goe about to proue that thinge by speakinge , wherein the euidence of the Truthe it selfe passeth al dewtie , and power of Speache .

How be it , S. Augustine saithe further , Quod autem Fides vestra postulat instruenda , Panis est Corpus Christi , Calix Sanguis : This Obiection maie be answeared by that is saide before . These twoo saieinges are bothe true . Hesychius saithe , Hesythius in Leui. li. 12. ca. 8. Mysterium nostrum simul & Panis , & Caro est : Our Mysterie is bothe Breade , and Fleashe . It is Breade in Substance , & in deede : It is also the Body of Christe , not in Substance , but in a Mysterie . Your owne Glose saithe , as it is before alleged : Dicitur Corpus Christi , De Con. Dist. 2. Hoc est quod . In Gloss . sed impropriè : Vt sit sensus , Vocatur Corpus Christi , id est , Significat Corpus Christi : It is called the Body of Christe : but vnproperly , or , not in dowe and vsual fourme of speache : The meaninge thereof maie be this : It is called Christes Body , that is to saie , It Signifiethe Christes Body .

In a Sacramente wee muste beholde , not onely the outwarde Elemente , but also the thinge it selfe , whereof it is a Sacramente . S. Augustine saithe , Si ad ipsas res visibiles , Augustin . De Baptismo contra Donatis . Li. 3. Cap. 10. quibus Sacramenta tractantur , animum conferamus , quis nesciat , eas esse corruptibiles ? Si autem ad id , quod per illas res agitur , quis non videat , non posse corrumpi ? If wee consider the visible Creatures , wherein the Sacramentes are ministred , who knoweth not , they be thinges corruptible ? But if wee consider the thinge , that is wrought thereby , who seeth not , It cannot be corrupted ?

And in the same place before alleged , S. Augustine fully expoundeth his owne meaninge , in what sense the Breade maie be called the Body of Christe . These be his woordes : Augustin . in Sermone ad Infantes . Christus leuauit Corpus suum in Coelum , vnde venturus est , vt iudicet viuos , & mortuos . Ibi est modò sedens ad Dextram Patris . Quomodò est Panis Corpus eius ? Et Calix , vel , quod habet Calix , quomodò est Sanguis eius ? Ista , Fratres , ideò dicuntur Sacramenta , quia in eis aliud videtur , aliud intelligitur : Christe hathe lifted vp his Body into Heauen : from whence hee shal comme to iudge the quicke , and the deade . There is hee nowe sittinge at the Right Hande of the Father . Howe then is the Breade his Body ? And the Cuppe , or that is in the Cuppe , howe is it his Bloude ? His answeare is this : O my Brethren , these be called Sacramentes , for that in them one thinge is seene , and an other thinge is vnderstanded .

Thus therefore , the thinge , that wée sée with our Bodily eies , is the very Nature , and Substance of Breade : but the thinge , that wee see with our Faithe , is the very Natural Body of Christe sittinge in Heauen , and represented vnto vs in the Mysteries .

Nowe , I beseeche thée , good Christian Reader , marke , what Discante M. Hardinge plaieth vpon these woordes . S. Augustine saithe , Beleeue the Iudgemente of your eies : M. Hardinge saithe , Senses be deceiteful : Beleeue not the Iudgemente of your eies . S. Augustine saithe , The thinge , that you see is Breade : M. Hardinge saithe , It is not so : it is no Breade . So handsomely this Glose groweth to the Texte .

The Apologie .

Or , that , whiche Origen saithe , The Breade , whiche is Sanctified by the Woorde of GOD , as touchinge the Material Substance thereof , goeth into the Belly , and is caste out into the priuie .

M. Hardinge .

In alleginge Origen , Sir Defender , ye plaie your accustomed false plaie , * * Vntruthe . For we haue Corrupted , nor word , nor Sentence . To that Material : A proper translation . corruptinge his sentence , and falsifieinge his woordes . For they be not as you recite them , but thus : Ille cibus , qui sanctificatur per Verbum Dei , Origens woordes examined . Origen falsefied bi the Defender . pèrque obsecrationem , iuxta id quod habet materiale , in ventrem abit , & in secessum eijcitur : That meate , whiche is Consecrated by the Woorde of God , and by Praier , accordinge to that Material , whiche it hathe , it goeth into the belly , and is voided foorthe into the Priuie . Here neither nameth he ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he nameth it Breade seuen times in that one place . Breade , as you doo ( to cause the people to thinke , it is but very Breade ) but meate . And that you haue in your Latine ▪ Quod quidem ad Materiam attinet : whiche is by your Interpreter , As touchinge the Material Substance thereof , * * Vntruthe , O●lesse ye wil rather cal it the Material Accidente . it is not Origens , but your owne forged stuffe , to deceiue the ignorante withal , to th ende they might be moued by your false handlinge of that Doctour , to beleeue , the mater and Substance of very Breade to remaine . He speakethe not of the ‡ ‡ Vntruthe : For in the same place he saithe , Nec Materia Panis . mater of Breade , but of that whiche is Material in this Sacramente , meaninge the Accidentes or Qualities remaininge after Consecration , whiche be Material , but not the mater it selfe of Breade ( as Mater is taken for the one parte of a perfect Substance ) * * Vntruthe , shamelesse , and without sense : For what Accidentes he voided foorthe . and the same Accidentes be voided foorthe , as Origen had good cause by occasion of Christes woorde to declare , you had none to recorde the same . But it liked your filthy sprite withe vile woordes to bringe that Holy Mysterie , and Blessed Sacramente into contempte . Wherein ye do the Deuil Authour of al Herisies the greatest seruice , that maie be deuised .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Heresies , false plaie , Falsehed , Falsifieinge , Vile woordes , Filthy Spirites , are nowe becomme M. Hardinges ordinarie , and vsual Eloquence . Here haue we corrupted , as he saithe , and belied Origen , for that wee place this woorde . Panis , in steede of Cibus : And , for that wee saie , Panis , quod ad Materiam attinet , in steede of these woordes , Cibus iuxta id , quod habet materiale . This is Forges stuffe : This is Homble , and shameful corruption , to deceiue the ignorante . He that kn●we not M. Hardinges modestie , and manner of writinge , woulde thinke these Tragical termes shoulde beare somme weight . For sober menne seldome vse thus to crie , without somme cause . Touchinge these woordes , Cibus , Panis , Materiale , Materia , if there be any thinge , that maie mislike him , it shal be laweful for him to refourme the same , Cibus , panis , Materiale , Materia . & to vse either the one woorde , or the other , at his pleasure . Wee stande onely vpon the Substance of mater , and seeke no sutche wanton aduantages by shifte of woordes .

Neuerthelesse , Origen him selfe , as it appeareth , was not so dangerous in the case . For , whereas M. Hardinge so sharply ouerlooketh vs , for once vsinge this woorde Panis , in steede of Cibus , Origen him selfe vseth the same woorde , Panis , 1. Corin. 11. Cyril . in Iohan. Lib. 10. Cap. 13 Seuen times togeather in the selfe same place , without reproufe : Like as S. Paule also fiue times in one place calleth it , Panis : And S. Cyril calleth the portions thereof , fragmenta Panis : peeces of Breade . And yet were none of these euer condemned therefore , as Corrupters , and Falsifiers .

But I beséeche you , M. Hardinge , if this woorde , Cibus , Meate , whiche Origen vseth , and you séeme to allowe , were not Breade , what kinde of Meate then wil you cal it ? Irenae . Li. 5. Augetur , & Consistit Carnis nostrae Substantia . Rabanus Maurus . Li. 1. Cap. 31. Pleashe , Fishe , or Fruite , I trowe , it was not . You safe , Origen meante thereby your Fourmes , and Accidentes , and Shewes of Breade . Nowe verily , this was but a quaisy Meate : and I marueil , that euer any wise man woulde cal it Meate . Irenaeus saithe , Of the same Meate is increased , and consisteth the Substance , of Our Fleashe . And Rabanus saithe , Sacramentum in alimentum Corporis redigitur : The Sacramente ( whiche is the Breade ) is turned into Our Bodily nourishemente .

Touchinge the other fowle faulte , M. Hardinge saithe , his Accidentes , and Qualities be thinges Material : but the Mater it selfe , he saithe , they be not . But where learned he this strange Doctrine ? What Diuine , what Philosopher , what Logician , what Sophister , what wise man euer taught him thus to saie ? Certainely Accidentes , and Qualities be Accidentales Formae , and in the Scholes are called thinges Formal : whiche are as farre from thinges Material , as Fire from Water . Notwithstanding , these menne haue power to make of Accidentes , Substance : Of Fourmes , Maters : Of thinges Formal , thinges Material : and of one contrarie , to make another : al this onely of them selues , without any manner other Authoritie .

M. Hardinge saithe , that the Meate , whereof Origen speaketh , is a Material , ( for this is the Light , and clearenesse of his Eloquence ) but not Materia : and by this pretie distinction he thinketh , the whole mater is fully discharged . And emongste the ignorante , that cannot iudge , perhaps he maie seeme to saie somewhat . But Origen him selfe , that best vnderstoode his owne meaninge , calleth the same Meate , in the same place , by expresse , and plaine woordes , not onely a thinge Material , but also the very Mater of Breade it selfe : His woordes be these : Nec Materia Panis , Origen . in Matt. Cap. 15. sed super illum dictus sermo est , qui prodest non indignè Domino comedenti : It is not the Mater of the Breade , but the woorde spoken ouer it , that profiteth him , that Eateth not vnwoorthily for the Lorde . Nowe Iudge thou indifferently . Gentle Reader , how iust causes M. Hardinge had , to moue these Tragedies .

Further he saithe , It liked our filthy Sprite , with vile woordes to bringe the Holy Mysteries into contempte , and therein doo the Diuel great seruice . O , M. Hardinge , some other speache would better become a man of your grauitie . Sutche liquoure seldome floweth from the Sprite of God . We neither encrease , or diminishe , nor any waie alter the woordes of Origen : but laie them foorth plainely , and simply , as we finde them . For thus he writeth : Ille Cibus , qui sanctificatur per Verbum Dei , & per Obsecrationem , iuxta id , quod habet Materiale , in Ventram abit , & in secessum eijcitur . Coeterùm iuxta precationem , quae illi accessit , pro portione Fidei fit vtilis : The Meate that is Sanctified by the Woord of God , and by Praier , according to that Material parte , that is in it , passeth into the belly , and so foorth into the Priuie , &c. If there be any Filthinesse or Villanie herein , it is this Ancient Fathers , whom ye ought not so vncourteously to reuile for Vncleanenesse of Sprite : it is not ours .

Howe be it , Vile Speache . this is not Origens onely Iudgemente : but the general , and agréeable Doctrine of al others the Catholique Fathers . And to allege one in stéede of many , S. Augustine saithe , as he is before alleged , Si ad res ipsas , quibus Sacramenta tractantur , animum conferamus , quis nesciat , eas esse corruptibiles ? Si ad id , quod per illas res agitur , Augustin . De Baptismo contra Donatis . Li. 3. Cap. 10. quis non videat , non posse corrumpi ? If wee consider the thinges them selues , wherein the Sacramentes be Ministred , who knoweth not , that they be thinges corruptible ? But if wee consider the thinge , that is wrought thereby , who seethe not , that it cannot be corrupted ? The Holy Fathers speake not thus of Christes Body , but of the Breade , whiche is the Sacramente of Christes Body . So saithe S. Ambrose , Non iste Panis , qui vadit in Corpus : sed Panis Vitae Aeternae , De Con. Dist 2 Non iste . qui animae nostra Substantiam fulcit : ( The Breade that I meane , is ) not this Breade ( of the Sacramente ) that passeth into the Body : but the Breade of Euerlastinge Life , that maineteineth the Substance of the Soule .

Nowe if there were sutche filthinesse , as you haue imagined , in the Holy Learned Bishoppes , and Doctours of the Churche , for vtteringe these , and other like woordes , of the corruptible Creatures of Breade , and Wine , what cleane Sprite then is there in them , that speake so filthily of Christes Body it selfe , beinge nowe Vncorruptible , In the. 23. Article . Alexand. Halen . par. 4. quae . 45. Mem. 1. and Glorious , at the Right Hande of the Father ? Hereof I had occasion to speake sommewhat in my Former Replie .

Alexander of Hales saithe , Quidam dicunt , vbicunque ponantur Species , siue in mundo loco , siue in immundo , siue in Ventre Muris , ibi est Corpus Christi : Somme saie , where so euer the Fourmes , or Accidentes be laide , whether the place be cleane , or vncleane , yea though it be in the Mouses belly , yet there is the Body of christe . Againe he saithe , Si Canis , vel Porcus deglutiret Hostiam Consecratam integram , non video , quare Corpus Domini non simul traijceretur in ventrem Canis , vel Porci : If a Dogge , or Hogge shoulde swallowe downe the Hoste Consecrate beinge whole , I see no cause to the contrarie , but the Body of Christe maie passe withal into the belly of the Dogge , or of the Hogge .

Likewise your owne Clemens , whom ye so often cal the Apostles Felowe , writeth thus , Clemens . epist. 2. Ne Murium stercora inter fragmenta Dominicae Portionis appareant : Let not Mise dounge be founde emong the fragmentes , or peecces of the Lordes Portion . Hée meaneth the Sacramente . Your owne Catholique allowed Glose saith , Corpus Christi potest euomi : De Con. Dist. 2. Si quis . In Gloss . The Body of Christe maie be vomited vp againe .

It abhorreth my harte to vtter these woordes : They be so horrible , and ful of Filthe . Yet this , M. Hardinge , is your owne Doctrine : This is your Sprite : This is it , that ye haue so longe maineteined with Fire , and Swerde . By sutche vncleane , and vnciuile speache , ye bringe Christes Body it selfe into contempte , and lothesomenesse in the hartes of the people .

But that you maie the better see the consente , & certaintie of your owne Doctrine , whereas you are wel contente to expounde these woordes of Origen , as vndoubtedly spoken of the Sacramente of Christes Body , your Instructer , and Maister , Doctour Gardiner , telleth you , that the same woordes perteine nothing at al vnto the Sacramente : And yet , vnto what thinge els they shoulde perteine , it séemethe by the doubtefulnesse of his answeare , he was neuer wel resolued . His woordes be these : Mar. Anton. Constantius , ad obiectum 166. Non de Eucharistia loquitur Origenes , sed de Pane sanctificato per Verbum Dei , & Orationem , quem communiter manducamus : vel de eo , qui solebat dari Catechumenis , de quo Augustinus : Origen speaketh not ( these woordes ) of the Sacramente : but either of the Breade , that is sanctified by Our Lordes woorde , and by Praier , whiche Wee commonly vse to Eate : or els hee speakethe of the Breade , that was geeuen to the Nouices , called Catechumeni , Whereof S. Augustine speaketh . Holy Fourmes . If this tale be true , then is yours Vntrue , M. Hardinge , and al your longe Commentarie of Fourmes , and Accidentes , is but in vaine . It were good , ye tooke a daie , that ye maie be better agreed vpon that , ye tel vs .

And , whereas , to shift the mater , ye put your poore Spiritual Fourmes , and Holy Accidentes to al the paines , to passe into the belly , & so foorth into the draught , and auouche the same in sutche sober wise , as if ye partely vnderstoode , what ye saide , it maie please you to vnderstand , that by the Iudgemente of your owne Schoolefelowes the Canonistes , ye are fowly deceiued . For thus they determine the mater , De Con. Dist. 2. Tribus gradibus , in Gloss● . quite against you : Species illae alijs cibis non permiscentur : Non enim in stomachum descendunt : quare per secessum non emittuntur : These Fourmes , or Accidentes are not mingled with other meates . For they goe not downe into the stomake : and therefore they passe not into the Priuie .

Heareby it maie appeare , that either the Glose , or M. Hardinge , is in errour . But the Glose is allowed , and coumpted Catholique : therefore the errour muste be M. Hardinges . How be it , to saie the truthe , M. Hardinge , and his Glose too , are bothe in errour .

The Apologie .

Or that , whiche Christe him selfe saide , not onely after the Blessinge of the Cuppe , but also after he had Ministred the Communion , I wil drinke nomore of this Fruite of the Vine . It is wel knowen , that the Fruite of the Vine is Wine , and not Bloude .

M. Hardinge .

Christe ( saie they ) him selfe saide , not only after the blessing of the Cuppe , but after he had Ministred the Communion , I wil drinke nomore of this Fruite of the Vine . Hereunto they adde of theire owne heades , * * Vntruthe . For these be S. Chrysostomeswords . and not ours . It is wel knowen , that the Fruite of the Vine is Wine , and not Bloude . By this they woulde signifie , that in the Chalice we haue not Christes Bloude , as him selfe saide , but mere Wine , as againste Christe they labour to perswade .

But we saie , Cap. 22. that those woordes ( I wil not drinke from hence foorthe of this generation of the Vine ) either were spoken * * M. Hardinge refuseth S. Mathewes , and S. Markes Order . only before the communion , This is M. Hardinges Vndoubted Certeintie . * * As by waie of a Sacramente . Otherwise it is Vntrue . or only after , or in bothe times . If they were spoken before the Communion . ( whiche opinion is the more probable ) it is very clerly proued by them , that wine remaineth not , as it shal hereafter be deduced .

For these causes it maie wel be saide , that we shoulde rather folowe the order of Luke , who witnesseth that Christe spake these woordes before his maundie , * then Mathewe , and Marke , who tel it , as spoken after . Secondly the order of Luke is confirmed by the circumstance of the thinges , that he describeth , more then the other Euangelistes . Nowe because in the Chalice of the Olde Lawe there was certainely not Bloude , but Wine , ( whereas Christe teacheth , that in his Chalice his owne Bloude is * conteined ) let ▪ he discrete Reader iudge , whether we muste not rather thinke , that these woordes of Christe ▪ I wil not from hencefoorthe drinke of this generation of the Vine , do not rather perteine to the Cuppe of the Olde Lawe , ( as Luke placeth them ) then to the Chalice of Christe after the Consecration , whereof Mathewe , and Marke reherse them .

Fourthly , and lasily , when Mathe we , and Marke reherse that Christe saide , he would not from hencefoorthe drinke of that generation of the Vine , they bothe , in muche like sorte of speakinge , adde thereunto these woordes , Mathae . 26. Mark . 14. Newe drinkinge . ( whiche in the Apologie were guilfully lefte out ) Vntil that daie , when I wil drinke it Newe with you in the Kingedome of God my Father . If Christe speake of a Newe drinkinge , whiche is to come , by likelyhoode the drinke paste is Olde . What exclamation would be sufficient to expresse , that in this ‡ ‡ A weighty pointe of Saluation . Yet M. H. him selfe , by his Confession , vnderstandeth i● not . weighty point of Saluation , our Englishe Cleregie are content * * Vantruthe , vaine and arro● gantc . to blinde the people , * * Vntruthe , vaine and arrogante . the right worshipful , yea the Honorable of our Countrie in so vile a sorte , that after many Fathers woordes misreported , and wrongfully wrested , they doubte not to attempt the same in Christes owne saieinges , and in those saieinges of his , whiche euidently proue the contrarie .

But nowe let vs graunt of our free liberalitie , The Fruite of the Vine . contrarie to so many good and stronge reason● , that Christe saide after consecration . I wil not from hencefoorthe drinke of this generation of the Vine , vntil the Kingedome of God come . Then it muste be further vnderstanded , that the Kingedom of God is taken in Scripture sommetime for the presente state of the Churche , The Kingdome of God taken two waies . Matth. 3. after Christes resurrection in this wòrlde , accordinge to that is saide oftentimes , in Scripture , The Kingedome of God draweth nigh : sommetimes also for the ioye of Heauen : as when Christe saithe , I dispose for you a Kingedome , as my Father hathe disposed for me , that ye may eate and drinke at my table , &c. Now if we take these woordes of Christe , spoken before Consecration , it is not vnconuenient , to vnderstand them of either of bothe Kingedomes : that is to saie , of the Kingedome of Resurrection , or of Glorie , as CHRYsostome and other do witnesse , because bothe were to come at that time . But if we take them spoken after consecration , Luc. 2● . as we rather vpon confidence of the truthe , then for necessitie , at this time do graunt , then these woordes ( Vntil the Kingdome of God come ) are to be meant only of the Kingedome of Glorie . For these holy Mysteries belong to the Kingdome of Christes Resurrection and Ascension . Neither were they practized by the Apostles in the Churche of Christe , vntil the Holy Ghoste came downe vpon them .

And so the newnes of it there , is fruition of it , not vnder the fourmes of Breade , and Wine , * * Vntruthe , grounded vpon a mere folie . as we haue it nowe , but face to face without al figure and fourme . Then is it to be noted that Christe saide not , I wil drinke nomore of the Fruite of the Vine , But , I wil not from hencefoorthe drinke of this generation of the Vine : Of this I saie , whereof now I haue dronken , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , threapte vpon Christe him selfe . whiche is vnder the fourme of wine my Bloude , whiche am the true Vine . For whereas this Apologie saithe ( it is wel knowen , that the fruite of the Vine is Wine , and not Bloude ) it seemeth to declare that the Authours thereof are ig●orant in the holy Scriptures , where * * A fond Cauil . For we speake onely of a Natural Vine . they might haue founde the fruite of some Vine to be called Blou●● . Gene. 49. For Iucob saide to his sonne Iadas , bearing the Figure of Christe , He shal wasshe his robe in Wine , and his cloke in the Bloude of a Grape . Lo , a Grape hathe his Bloude : a Grape is the fruite of the Vine : and therefore it is not wel knowen , that the fruite of the Vine is not Bloude . The Holy Ghoste did in these woordes of Iacob prophecie , In. 1. Cori. 10. that Christe the true Vine should geue the Grape of his Body to be pressed vpon the Crosse , from whence the Wine was shedde , * * As in a Mysterie . Otherwise it is Vntrue . whiche is in our Chalice as Chrysostome also noteth . And now is it no wonder if we expound the woord ( Vine ) mystically .

O what strength Truthe hath ? howe plainely she dareth to shewe her face , r●tt nipping the Scriptures , nor misenglishinge them , nor dissemblinge any iote , that may seeme to make againste hir .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Marke , 1. Gentle Reader , howe mightily M. Hardinge wrastleth , and what paines he takethe , to drawe this place to his pourpose . Firste he assureth vs for certaine , that Christe spake these woordes Before the Consecration , and that therefore they perteine nothinge to the Sacramente . 2. Neuerthelesse , afterwarde he graunteth , as he saithe , of his free liberalitie , that Christe spake the same woordes After the Consecration , 3. & that they perteine specially to the Sacramente . And yet againe vpon further affiance , and boldnesse of the cause , he séemeth to saie , It maie be , that Christe spake the same woordes at bothe times : that is , as wel After the Consecration , as Before .

Againe , he saithe , S. Lukes rehearsal is more likely , then S. Mathewes : For that S. 4. Luke writeth eche thing in Order : and S. Mathe we out of Order .

Againe , 5. One Cuppe is firste the Wine of the Olde Testamente : and immediately after the same Cuppe is the Wine of the Newe Testamente .

Againe , 6. The Kingedome of God , sommetime is the state of the Churche , sommetime it is the state of Glorie . 7. Againe , The Fruite of the Grape sommetime is very Natural Wine , Anton. Constantius ad Obiectum . 27. sommetime it is the very Bloude of Christe . Notwithstandinge Steuin Gardiner saithe , that neither the Natural Wine , nor Christes very Bloude , but the Accidentes , and Fourmes are the Fruite of the Vine . 8. Yet againe he saithe , Christe Dranke his owne very Bloude at the Supper : and euen nowe him selfe Drinketh the same his owne Bloude in the kingedome of Heauen . The Fruite of the Vine .

In the ende M. Hardinge , after he hathe wel wandred , and walked him selfe , bothe Before , and After : In Order , and out of Order : This Waie , and that Waie : with the Olde Cuppe , and with the Newe : and hathe wel stated him selfe by coniectures , and likelihoodes : at the laste be bloweth vp the Tr●umphe , with a iolly corrage , and crieth out , O what strength Truthe hathe , and howe plainely she dareth to she we her face .

Here , by the waie , a man might demaunde of M. Hardinge , notwithstandinge the greate Confidence he pretendeth in his cause : If Christe spake these woordes , Before the Consecration , of the very Natural Wine of the Grape , and of the Ceremonial Cuppe of the Old Lawe , Before . howe dranke he then afterward of the same Natural Wine of the Grape , after a Newe Sorte ? or howe was the same Natural Wine fulfilled in the Kingdome of God ? If Christ spake the same woord ? After the Consecration , After . the Substance of Wine , by these mennes fantasie , beinge vtterly abolished , and nothinge there remaininge , but onely the Accidentes , howe was it then the Fruite , or generation of the Vine ?

But , to leaue these vnfruiteful gheasses , vntil M. Hardinge haue better agreed with him selfe vpon somme certainetie , wee saie , that the Cuppe of Blessinge , whiche Christe calleth the Cuppe of the Newe Testamente , not withstandinge it were made in a Mysterie the Sacramente of Christes Blonde ▪ yet in Nature , and Substance was very Wine stil , and , as Christe him selfe ●●lleth it , the very Fruite , and generation of the Grape , as it was before .

The woordes of the Euangeliste S. Matthae . 2● Mathewe are very pl●●ne : Hee tooke the Cuppe : and , when hee had geuen thankes , hee gaue it them , saieinge , Drinke ye al of it : For this is my ●loude of the Newe Testamente , that is shedde for many ▪ for the Remission of Sinnes . I saie vnto you , that I wil not Drinke hencef●ourthe of this Fruite of the Vine , vntil that daye , when I shal Drinke it Newe with you in the Kingedome of my Father . To auoide the manifeste truthe of this rehearsal , M. Hardinge saithe , S. Mathewe vttered one thinge for an other : the Later for the Former : the Cuppe Consecrate , for the Cuppe Vnconsecrate : and placed his maters out of order . And by this poore shifte , he thinketh the Storie of the Gospel is fully answeared .

But let vs see , what the Learned Fathers haue iudged , and written in this behalfe . So shal the weight of these coniectural gheasses , and the Face of M. Hardinges Truthe , whiche he so mutche magnifieth without cause , the better appeare . Clemens in ●●●dagogo . li. 2. Cap. 2. Clemens Alexandrinus hereof writeth thus , Quòd Vinum esset , quod benedictum est , Christus ostendit , dicens Discipulis , Non bibam ex Fructu Vitis huius , donec bibe●o ipsum vobiscum in Regno Patris mei : That it was Wine , that was Blessed ( at the Supper ) Christe him selfe shewed his Discipses , saieinge : I wil nomore Drinke of the Fruite of this Vine , vntil I shal Drinke it with you in the Kingedome of my Father . What so euer it shal Please M. Hardinge to thinke of the sense hereof , he muste needes confesse , the woordes are very plaine . Likewis● . saithe S. Cyprian , Dominus Sanguinem suum Vinum appellauit , de botris , & acinis plurimis expressum , atque in Vinum coactum : Cyprian . Lib. 1. Epist. 6. The Wine pressed our of Clusters , and manie Grapes , and so made Wine , Our Lorde called his Bloude . S. Augustine saithe , Et Vinum fuit in Redemptionis nostrae Mysterio , cùm Dominus diceret , Augustin . De Eccles●ast . Dogmatibus Ca. 75. Non bibam àmodo de hoc genimine Vitis : There was Wine in the Mysterie , or ●acramente of Our Redemption , when Our Lorde saide , I wil nomore Drinke hencefoorthe of this Fruite of the Vine . Here note thou , good Reader , howe handsomely S. Augustine , and M. Hardinge agree togeather . S. Augustine saithe plainely , it was the Sacramente : M. Hardinge saithe plainely , it was not the Sacramente . S. Augustine saithe , These woordes were spoken after the Consecration : M. Hardinge findeth faulte with S. Mathewes order , and saithe , They were spoken before the Consecration . S. Augustine folowing the plaine woordes of Christ , saithe , It was Wine : M. Hardinge folowinge his owne woordes , againste bothe S. Augustine , and Christe too , saithe vndoubtedly , It was no Wine .

Againe S. Augusti . Quae. Euangelicar . Li. 1 Cap. 43. Augustine saithe , Dominus per Vini Sacramentum , commendat Sanguinem suum . Quid enim aliud , Nouum Vinum , nisi Immortalitatem renouandorum Corporum intelligere debemus ? Our Lorde by the Sacramente ( not of Fourmes , or Accidentes , but ) of Wine , commendeth vnto vs his Bloude . For what other thinge maie wee vnderstande the Newe Wine to be , but the Immortalitie of our Bodyes , that shal be reuewed ? S. Chrysostome saithe , Cùm Dominus hoc Mysterium traderer , Vinum tradidit . Chrysost. in Mat. Homi. 83. Etiam post Resurrectionem sine Mysterijs in simplici mensa Vino vsus est . Ex genimine , ait , Vitis : quae certè Vinum , non Aquam producit : Our Lorde , when he deliuered this Mysterie , deliuered ( not Accidentes , but ) Wine . And after his Resurrection , being at a plaine table without the Mysteries , he vsed Wine . For so he saithe , Of the fruite of the Vine : Whiche vine surely beareth , not Water , Cyprian . Lib. 2. Dionysius , & Lyra in Matth. ca. 26. but Wine . M. Hardinge saithe : Who so euer expoundeth these woordes as spoken of the Mysteries , belieth bothe the Holy Fathers , and Christe him selfe . S. Chrysostome expoundeth the same woordes , as spoken of the Mysteries , and to that p●urpose applieth the woordes of Christe . Therfore , by M. Hardinges Conclusion , he belieth bothe the Holy Fathers , and Christe him selfe .

In like manner S. Hierome saithe , Christus in Typo Sanguinis sui non obtulit Aquam , Hiero●y aduersus Iouinian . Lib. 2. sed Vinum : Christe in the Signification of his Bloude , offered , not Water , but Wine . By these fewe , I truste , it maie easily appeare to the indifferent Reader , howe iuste cause M. Hardinge had , thus to proclaime , and publishe the Face , as he saithe , of his Truthe : and with sutche courrage , and countenance to crie out , that wée haue wilfully corrupted the woordes of Christe .

M. Hardinge saithe further . These Defenders adde of their owne heades , It is Wel knowen , that the Fruite of the Vine is Wine , and not Bloude . I thoughte M. Hardinge would not haue piked so simple a quarrel to these woordes , of whose heade so euer they had benne added . For , I trowe , he hathe but seldome hearde , or seene , that a Natural Vine hath borne Natural Bloude . Now be it , these woordes proceded not altogeather of our owne heades . Chrysost. in Mat. Homi. 83. S. Chrysostome also of his heade vttered the same . For thus he writeth , Ex genimine Vitis : quae cert● Vinum producit , not Aquam : Of the Fruite of the Vine : whiche Vine verily bringeth foorthe , not Water , cyprian . 2. Epist. 3. Dionysius & lyra in Matth. ca. 26. but Wine . S. Cyprian saithe , Inuenimus Vinum fuisse , quod Dominus Sanguinem suum dixit : Wee finde , it was Wine , that our Lorde called his Bloude . And Dionysius , Lyra , and other like Doctours of M. Hardinges owne side , saye , De hoc genimine Vitis : id est , de Vini , quod generatur in Vinea : Of this Fruite of the Vine : that is to saie , Of the Wine , that groweth of the Vine .

Againe M. Hardinge saithe , It is to be noted , that Christe saide not , I wil drinke nomore of the Fruite of the Vine : But , I wil not from hencefoorthe drinke of this Generation of the Vine : as if there were somme maruilous greate difference bitweene these twoo woordes , Fruite , and Generation . And this thinge , hee saith , is wel woorthy to be noted . Verily the difference bitwene these two woordes is as greate , as is the difference bitwéene Ensis , and Gladius : or Liber , & Codex : bitweene which woordes , sound onely excepted , it is harde to discerne , whether is other . M. Hardinge saithe , It is to be noted , that Christe saide not , I wil drinke nomore of the Fruite of the Vine : Hilari . in Mat. Canon . 30. Yet S. Hilarie saithe , Bibentes ex Vitis istius Fructu : Drinkinge of the Fruite of this Vine . If these woordes , as beinge doubtefully spoken , maie be shifted into some other sense : Yet Clemens Alexandrinus , Clemens in Paedagogo , Lib. 2. Cap. 2. as he is before alleged , & as he is translated by Gentianus Heruetus , saithe plainely , Non bibam de hoc Fructu Vitis : I wil nomore Drinke of this Fruite of the Vine . And S. Cyprian somewhat in plainer wise saithe , Non Bibam ex ista Creatura Vitis : I wil nomore Drinke of this Creature of the Vine . Therefore , I thinke , M. Hardinge him selfe wil saie , This note was not greately woorthe the notinge .

Yet farther he saith , Cyprian . Lib. 2. Epist 3. These Defenders seeme to be Ignorante of the Holy Scriptures : Where they might haue founde the Fruite of somme Vine to be called Bloude . For Iacob saide of Christe , He shal washe his Robe in Wine and his Cloke in the Bloude of a Grape . It is a harde shifte , M. Hardinge , so suddainely to conueie the mater from ordinarie vse of speache , vnto an Allegorie , Wée speake of a Natural growinge Vine , whiche , wée saie , beareth not Bloude , but onely Wine . But , as touchinge that ye saie , Christe is called a Vine in the Holy Scriptures , it is onely an Allegorie , or a Figure of speache . For although Christe , for cèrtaine properties , maie be resembled vnto a Vine ▪ yet is he not therefore verily , & in déede a Natural growinge Vine . Therefore it was greate violence , thus to force yewoordes of the Scriptures to this purpose . Otherwise , by the like phrase of speache , one saithe , Lachryma est quidam Animae Sanguis : A teare is a certaine Bloude of the Soule . And S. Augustine saith , Vident Sanguinem Corpoiū : Animarum Sanguinem non vident : They see the Bloude of the Bodies : but the Bloude of the Soules thei see not . Androcides . An other called Wine , Terrae Sanguinem , the Bloude of the Earthe . Yet maie not M. Hardinge saie , that either the Soule of Man , or the moulde of the Earthe , in déede hath Natural , & Real , & very Bloude . These be onely certaine Figures , & Fourmes of speache . But Christe , when he saide , I wil nomore Drinke of this fruite of the Vine , Spake plainely , & simply , & without Figure . And therefore Chrysostome saith , as it is alleged before , Ex genimine Vitis : quae certè Vinum producit , Chrysostom . in Matthae . Homil. 83. non Aquam : Of the Fruite of the Vine : whiche Vine verily bringeth foorthe , not Water , but Wine . But Chrysostome saithe , The Wine , that was shedde from Christes Body , that is to saie , the Bloude of Christe , is in the Cuppe . Chrysostom . 1. Corin . 10. This is true , as in a Mysterie , or by a Figure of speache : bicause Christes Bloude is represented in the Cuppe . Otherwise , if wée speake simply , & plainely , and without Figure , Chrysostome saith , In vasis Sanctificatis non est ipsum Corpus Christi : sed Mysterium Corporis eius continetur : Chrysostom . in Matthae . Homil. 11. In the Sanctified vessels , there is not the very Body of Christe in deede : but a Mysterie of that Body is therein conteined .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 1.

And in speakinge thus , wee meane not to abase the Lordes Supper , or to teache , that it is but a colde Ceremonie onely , & nothinge to be wrought therin : ( as many falsely sclaunder vs , we teache ) For we affirme , that Christe dooth truely , & presently geeue him self wholy in his Sacramentes : In Baptisme , that we maie put him on : & in his Supper , that wee maie Eate him by Faithe , & Sprite , & maie haue Euerlastinge Life by his Crosse & Bloude . And wee saie not , this is donne sleightly & coldely , but effectually & truely . For although wee doo not touche the Body of Christe with teethe , and mouthe , yet wee holde him faste , and eate him by Faithe , by Vnderstandinge , and by Sprite . And it is no vaine Faithe , that comprehendeth Christe : neither is it receiued with colde deuotion , that is receiued with Vnderstandinge , Faithe , & Sprite . For Christe him selfe altogeather is so offered , and geeuen vs in these Mysteries , that wee maie certainely knowe wee be Fleashe of his Fleashe , and Bone of his Bones : and that Christe continueth in vs , and wee in him .

M. Hardinge .

It is easy to be perceiued , By whome is oure Lordes Supper more abased , by the Defenders , or by the Catholikes . who abaseth more our Lordes Supper , whether ye , that teache it to be very * * Vntruthes two togeather : For wee neuer called it either Bakers Bread , or onely Figure . Bakers Breade and Wine with the * * What so euer corruptible Creature is honoured as God , it is an Idole . onely Figure of Christes Body and Bloude , or we who beleeue it to be his true Body and Bloude , with the onely Fourmes of Breade and Wine ( Of whiche Fourmes neither Christe , nor his Apostles euer tolde vs one woorde ) . Wether ye , that wil haue it a Figure of Christes whole Body absent , or wee , who wil haue Christes Body present in deede , with a Figure of his Deathe , whiche ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Christes Deathe is as Presente , as his Body . Deathe is absente onely . Whether ye , that cal it an * * Vntruthe , grounded vpon a dreame . No Learned Doctour euer saide thus . Idol when it is worshipped , or we that do according to our dueitie adore it , because that Roial Body ( as Chrysostome saith ) whiche is set before vs ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , standing in wronge Exposition . For Chrysostome saithe , Ascende ad Coeli portas : imò non Coeli , sed Coeli Coelorum . to be seene now in Earthe , is woorthy of the most highe Honour . But whether of those two is the colder Ceremonie and more simple Supper , to haue Breade and Wine with a Signe onely of Fleashe and Bloude , or to haue Reall Fleashe and Bloude with suche formes of Breade and Wine , as * * Vntruthe , grounded vpon a dreame . No Learned Doctour euer saide thus . by the Power of God do nolesse bodily nourishe vs , then the Substance it selfe would haue done : wee doubte not of wise mens iudgement . Ye haue your carnal Bankettes fatte and full inoughe of the beste fleashe , and it is with you superstitious to Eate drie and Lenten meates . But ye wil haue your spiritual Bankettes so leane , and Carreine , as a man maye wel discerne , whether ye haue more phantasie to your Fleashe , or to your Spirite .

Ye write , The Sacramentaries teache nothing to be wrought in their lordes Supper . 1. Corin. 11. What is Supper properly . that many falsely sclaunder you , sayinge that ye teache nothinge to be wrought in the Lordes Supper , whereas ye affirme , that Christe dothe truely and presently geue his owne selfe in his Supper , that we may eate him by Faith and Spirite . And other worke in the Lordes Supper ye shewe none . And this whiche ye shewe , a man may doubte , whether it be a thinge wrought in the Lordes Supper , or no. Wel may ye saie , that it is a thinge wrought in them whiche come to the Supper : but that it is wrought in the supper it selfe , ye shewe it not : the Supper beinge that which is called Coena , to witte , the meate recetued , not Coenatio , whiche is the acte of suppinge . For sith that supper is nothinge els but meate and drinke set vpon the Table to be receiued by suche as come vnto it , that whiche is wrought in the Lordes Supper , must be wrought ‡ ‡ The Breade is for vs , not wee for the Breade . in the meate and Drinke , which our Lorde hath at his table . And as the matter whereof our Lordes Supper is made , is Breade and Wine : so the Supper made thereof is our Lordes Body and Bloude , into whiche the Breade and Wine by the Almighty power of the Woorde is changed . So that if ye wil shewe Christe him selfe to be * * Christe made : Christ Wroughte : A straunge Diuinitie . made or * * Vntruthe . For M. Harding wel knoweth , that this fonde folie was neuer Catholique . wrought in our Lordes Supper , ye muste shewe Breade and Wine to be changed into Christe him selfe , and so to be Eaten of his faithfull at his Table . But whereas there are three thinges , christe , taht makth the Supper , the Communicantes that receiue the Supper , and the Supper it selfe : ye saye that Christe for his parte geueth his owne selfe verily presente , likewise that Communicantes for their parte Eate him by faithe and spirite . And so ye shewe , that the maker of the Supper worketh , and that the Communicantes worke . But al this while ye shew vs not what is wrought in the matter of the Supper , that is to saie , in the Breade and Wine , nor what is made . O great sclaumder that ye were charged withal , whiche not so muche as by your owne woorde ye are discharged of .

Howe muche sounder is the ‡ ‡ Sutche vnchristian scornes , against Christes ordinance are very vnseemely . Catholike doctrine , The proper worke of our Lordes Supper . whiche reacheth the proper woorke of our Lordes Supper to be the turninge of the Substance of Breade and Wine into his Body and Bloude ? Whiche woorke bicause ye wil not confesse , yee haue deuised a woorke of your owne workinge , whiche is not propre to our Lordes Supper . For if I can receiue Christe in my house at home by Faithe and Spirite , how is that worke * * Christ offereth him selfe vnto our Faithe : and by our Faithe he is receiued . proper to his Supper , whiche maye be Wrought without his Supper ? Or can I not beleeue in Christe , or lifte vp my Spirite vnto him ‡ ‡ Suthche unchristian scornes , against christes ordinance are very vnseemely . excepte I come to Supper ? Or If I doo call for Christe , dothe he not geue him selfe by grace vnto me ?

But ( saie ye ) at the Lordes Supper Christe geueth him selfe verily presente . How make the Defenders Christe verily Presente in his Supper . To what purpose ? I praie you . That wee maie Eate him ( saie ye ) by Faithe , and Sprite . Wel reasoned forsoothe . Haue ye foregotten the geuinge to eate , and eatinge that , whiche is geuen , to be Relatiues , one of them hauinge relation to the other ? If Christe doo exhibite him selfe verily presente , as your Latine Texte hath , or geueth his owne selfe verily and presently , as your Interpreter telleth your tale for you : * * Christ offereth him selfe vnto our Faithe : and by our Faithe he is receiued . dooth not he so exhibite or geue himselfe , as he wil be receiued ? Or dothe he shewe in one hande a piece of Breade , and with the other strike vs on the heade with a stone ? If he geue vs him selfe verily present , as ye saie , wee take him verily Presente . And then ( onlesse ye meane by him selfe , his grace , which is of Christe , and not Christe him selfe ) we eate him verily Presente , not onely by Faithe , and Sprite , but by takinge him into * * This is the Caniballes Diuinitie . S. Ambrose saithe , Non hic Panis . qui vadit in ventrem . our Mouth , and Body . If it please him at any time to be Eaten by Fatthe and spirite alone , ( after whiche sorte he is dately eaten by those that humbly cal vpon him ) then he geueth not him selfe verely Present , but by Faithe and spirite , other wise named grace , or some spiritual effected of his workinge . But in our Lordes Supper the Scripture requireth a special and peculiar presence of christe , to witte , of his fleashe , so as it maye be Eaten . If then he geeue him selfe verely present , as ye saie , he is present in his owne person , God and Man , with Body , with Bloude , with Soule , with Godhed . If ye meane the very presence of his Godhed , that presence belongeth nomore to Christe , them to the Father , and to the Holy Ghoste . And so haue ye not declared any pecultar presence belonginge to his Supper . For by Presence of his Godhed he is alwaies verely present , as well before Supper , as at , or after Supper : because he filleth Heauen and Earthe . It remaineth that either ye vnderstande not your selues , or wilfully deceiue that infinite number of Soules , for Whose sake Christe hath shedde his Bloude .

‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the finest , and beste Learned Fathers haue maineteined the same : As shal appeare . Your errour in makinge the Presence of Christe in Baptisme like to his presence in the Supper is to grosse . The presence of Christe in Baptisme and in the Supper is distincte , whiche the Defenders make to be like . For although Christe woorke bothe our Regeneration and our nourrishment by his Diuine Sacramentes , yet in Baptisme our Regeneration is by name attributed in the Gospell to the Holy Ghoste also , to shewe that Christes presence there is spirituall . But his Supper consisteth of his Body and Bloude , whiche are so vnited to Christe , as they are peculiar to the seconde persone in Godhed . Againe for asmuche as they are receiued into vs , as foode to nourrishe our Bodies to Resurrection , * * Vntruthe . For there is no sutche worde in al the Gospel . as the Gospell saieth , and nomans Body is otherwise nourished then by Eatinge in deede that meate whereof he is nourrished , and the Fleashe of Christe , as him selfe saithe , is ‡ ‡ S. Cyprian saithe , Cibus mentis , non Ventris . meate in deede , and his Bloude Drinke in deede : We are forced to beleue an other maner of presence in the Sacramente of the Aulter , then in Baptisme . And therefore ye haue handled this matter to sleightly and coldely .

Where as ye saie , wee do not touche the Body of Christe with Teeth and Mouth , * * Heathenishe , and Vnchristian scoffinge . are ye so accustomed to swallowe downe whole morselles , That wee touche Christes Body , and eate it with our mouthe , and how . In. 1. Corin . Homi. ●4 . as ye neuer touche them with your Teeth ? Or haue ye learned to eate that , whiche ye touche not with your Mouthe ? If Christe saide , Take , Eate , this is my Body , and the Apostles tooke and Eate the same , neither coulde they take and Eate without touchinge : it semeth ye handle eatinge to sleightly and coldely , when ye wil haue it without touching . Chrysostome a more Substanital handler of thinges then any of you is , saieth of Christes Body , Quod omnium maximum est atque praecipuum , in terra non conspicaris tantùm , sed tangis : neque sliontangis , sed comedis , & ●o accepto domum redis . Of al thinges that be in earthe , what is the greatest , and the chiefest , ‡ ‡ As you See Christes Body in the Sacramente , euen so yee Touche it , and so yee Eat● it : and none otherwise . S. Ambrose saithe , Fide Christus tangitur : Non tangitur Corpore . that doest thou not onely see , but touchest : neither onely doest thou touche it , but also eate it , and hauinge receiued it , thou goest home againe . How we touche it we knowe , for it is not now a mortall and corruptible Body , wherein we maie fasten our Teeth , but glorious , and immortall , * * Vntruthe , Childishe , and vnsauerie . The Learned Fathers neuer knewe these folies . and therefore we touche it by the reason of the Accidentes of Breade and Wine ▪ with whose Formes ( as S. Augustine speaketh ) it is couered or vailed , In Lib. Sentent . Prosp. The Defenders imaginarie holdinge of Christe holdeth not Christe as he is in the Sacrament . Matth. 26. and so commeth it to our Teethe , and to our Mouthe , and nourrisheth bothe our Bodies and Soules to life Euerlastinge . Nay but we saie ye ) holde him faste , and Eate him by Faith , by Vnderstanding , and by the Spirite . I praie you be not to has●●e to holde him , before ye haue him . How came ye by him ? His grace he geueth diuerse waies , but him selfe Bodely and presently as man , he neuer promised to geue otherwise , then when he saide , Take , Eate , this is my Body . And then Iudas ‡ ‡ Iudas had a very meane Faithe . ( who had but a very meane Faithe ) because he receiued the Sacramente , receiued him also . And our Blessed Lady although shee had a moste persitte Faithe , receiued him not after that sorte , because then shee receiued not the Sacramente . How can ye assure your selues , that your Faithe takeht the Body of Christe , * * Vntruthe , As shal appeare . But where was Christes Body promised to your Mouthe . whiche was neuer promised to your Faithe ? If your Faithe take him not as he is in the Sacramente , how can your Faithe holde him faste there ?

As here before ye haue saide muche and proued litle against the Reall Presence , wrestinge and stretchinge certaine Fathers sentences and the Scripture it selfe to that purpose , not wholy and Faithfully , but by piecemeale and p●tchedly alleaged , so as ye might best make them serue to the mainetenance of your false Doctrine : right so in the conclusion of that parte of your Apologie , with a like grace ye heape a number of mangled auctorities together , wherby to perswade , that for asmuche as the Fathers haue aduertised vs to lifte vp our mindes to heauen warde , Bakers Breade . we should not thinke we Late the Fleashe of Christe as beinge here present with vs vnder the Forme of Breade . Therefore whereas ye laye to the Catholikes charge , as though by their Sacriledge the people were berefte of a greate benefite , in that they be taught to be content with the one kinde , vnder the same receiuing nolesse then if they had bothe : howe muche more woorthely are ye to be charged with the crime of Sacriledge , that * * Vntruthe For we robbe them not , but offer them in deede , and verily the Body of christe : and shewe them where , and wherewith they maie receiue it . robbe them of the greatest Treasure that is in the Churche , so muche as in you lieth , the Body and Bloude of our Lorde : and in steede thereof pretende to deliuer vnto them a piece of Bakers Bread , and a cuppe of wine ? But let vs see what good reason or auctoritie ye bringe out of the Fathers againste the true presence of Christe in the Blessed Sacramente .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O M. Hardinge , your conscience knoweth , and wil testifie against your selfe , that wee neuer called the Holy Sacramente of Christes Body , Bakers Breade , nomore then wee cal the Sacramente of Baptisme , a paile of Water . Wee haue alwaies spoken honourably , and reuerently hereof , as it was meate wee shoulde speake of the Mysteries of the Deathe of Christe , and as the Holy Catholique Fathers haue euermore vsed to speake before vs .

These wilde , and wanton , & vnseemely speaches agree rather with your Doctrine . For , cal your owne woordes alitle to remembrance . In your Firste Answeare , M. Hardinge Articulo . 24. ye cal the Holy Sacramente , as it is vsed , and Ministred by vs , accordinge to the Order of the Holy Fathers , A peece of Breade not woorthe a pointe : In this place ye cal the Holy Ministration so vsed by vs , A leane , and a Carrien Banket : In the nexte diuision , ye cat it A Toie . These be your woordes , M. Hardinge , and maie wel stande , bothe with the Sobrietie of your Sprite , and also with the whole Substance , and tendure of your Religion .

Wee cal it , The Sacramente of Thankesgeuinge , and the Sacramente of Christes Body , and Bloude . And with the Holy Father S. Augustine wee saie , In Sacramentis videndum est , August ▪ Contra Maximin . Lib. 3. Cap. 22. non quid sint , sed quid Significent : In Sacramentes wee muste Consider , not what thei be ( in them selues ) but what they Signifie .

Wee haue no special regarde to the Breade , Wine , or Water : For they are Creatures Corruptible , as wel after Consecration , as they were before : But wee directe our Faithe Onely vnto the very Body , & Bloude of Christe : not as beinge there Really , and Fleashel● Presente , as ye haue imagined : but as sittinge in Heauen at the Righthande of God the Father . The Holy Father Chrysostome saith , although in general woordes , not speakinge specially of this Sacramente : Oculi Fidei , Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 24. quando vident haec ineffabilia bona , ne sentiunt quidem haec visibilia . Tantum inter haec , & illa interest : The eies of our Faithe , when they beholde these vnspeakeable good thinges , they doo not so mutche , as marke these out warde thinges , that we see with our Bodily eies So greate is the difference bitwene these thinges And herein resteth the grossenesse of your errour , that ye diuide not the one thinge from the other . S. Augustine saithe , August . in Iohan . Tracta . 26. Augustin . De Doctrina Christiana . Lib. 3. Cap. 5. Origen . In Prologo in Cantica Canticor . Aliud est Sacramentum , aliud res Sacramenti : The Sacramente of Christes Body is one thinge : and the Substance of the Sacramente , ( or Christes Body represented by the Sacramente ) is an other thinge . And againe he saithe , Ea demùm est miserabilis animae seruitus , Signa pro Rebus accipere : To take the Signes ( or Sacramentes ) in steede of the thinges them selues , ( that be Signified ) is the miserable bondage of the Soule . In like manner Origen saithe , Simpliciores nescientes distinguere , ac secernere , quae sint , quae in Scripturis Diuinis Interiori Homini , quae verò Exteriori deputanda sint , vocabulorum similitudinibus falsi . ad ineptas quasdam Fabulas , & figmenta inania se contulerunt : Simple menne , not hable to discerne in the Holy Scriptures , what thinges ought to be applied to the vtter Man , and what to the Inner , beinge deceiued by the likenesse of woordes , haue turned them selues to a sorte of peeuishe Fables , and vaine Fantasies .

Ye cal our Doctrine naked , Figure . Christes Deathe . Absente or Presente . and colde , for that wée saie , The Sacramente is a Figure . And yet bicause ye cannot in any wise denie , but the same woorde , Figure , to the same purpose is commonly vsed of al the Anciente Catholike Fathers , and Doctours of the Churche , Therefore ye thought it good to qualifie , and to mince the matter , and to saie , It is a Figure , not of the Body , but of the Deathe of Christe . And here it is a worlde to sée , howe pitifully ye trouble your selfe with your varietie , and change , and shifte of Figures .

Firste you saie , The Sacramente , by the Iudgemente of Damascene , is called a Figure before the Consecration , M. Hard. Artic. 12. Diuision . 2. that is to saie , before the Sacramente be a Sacramente . Afterwarde vpon better aduise ye saie , The Fourmes onely , & the Shewes , & Accidentes are the Figure of Christes Body . Againe you saie , Christes Body Inuisible , is a Figure of Christes Body Visible : that is to saie , A thinge vncertaine , is a Figure of a thinge moste certaine . Nowe laste of al ye saie , as , I thinke , noman euer saide before , The very Body of Christe it selfe is a Figure of the Deathe of Christe . Thus many prety strange vnknowen Figures ye are drtuen to diuise , thereby to auoide one simple , plaine , vsual , & common Figure . For , to leaue an infinite number of other Anciente Fathers , Augustin . in Psalm . 3. S. Augustine saithe , Dominus Figuram Corporis sui Discipulis suis commendauit , & tradidit : Our Lorde commended , and deliuered to his Disciples a Figure ( not , as ye saie , of his Death , but ) of his Body .

Whereas you saie , The Body of Christe is present in déede , & that his Deathe is Absente onely : If ye liste to cauille , as yée doo , & , as your manner is , idlely to plaie with the woordes , and phrases of the Ancient Fathers , ye might as wel , and by as good warrante , saie , that Christes Deathe is as Presente , as his Body . For S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . Lib. 2. Epist. 3. Chrysotom . in Acta , Homil. 21. Hieronym . in Psalm . 97. De con. Dist. 2. Quid sit . Passio Christi est Sacrificium , quod offerimus : The Sacrifice , that wee offer , is the Passion of christe . Chrysostome saith , In Mysterijs Mors Christi perficitur : The Deathe of Christe is wrought in the Mysteries : S. Hierome saithe , Christus nobis quotidiè Crucifigitur : Vnto vs Christe is Crucified euery daie . And S. Gregorie saithe , Christus iterum in hoc Mysterio Moritur : In this Mysterie ( of the Holy Communion ) Christe is put to Deathe againe . By these woordes thus pressed & rackte , as your manner is , ye maie easily proue , not onely the Christes Body , but also that his Passion , & Deathe , & Bloude sheddinge is verily Presente .

Ye saie , ye Adore the Sacramente with godly Honour . Wee answeare you , as Christe sometime answeared the woman of Samaria , Vos Adoratis , quod nescitis : Ye Adore , Iohan. 4. and woorship , ye know not what . For who euer willed you thus to Adore the Sacramente ? Who taught you , who bade you so to doo ? What Prophete ? What Apostle ? What Father ? What Doctour of the Churche ?

But here , M. Hardinge , ye doo vs great wronge , to saie , wée cal Christes Body an Idole . Chrysost. 1. Corin. Homil. 24. For wée knowe , and haue euermore Confessed with Chrysostome , that the Body of Christe is woorthy of the highest Honoure : & wée Adore it , and woorship it , euen as the very Body of the Sonne of God . How be it , as it is saide before , Christes Body is one thinge , and the Sacramente is an other . The Sacramente is in Earthe : Christes Body is in Heauen , at the Right Hande of God the Father . Chrysostom . in eadem Homilia . And therefore Chrysostome saith in the same place , A scende ergo ad Coeli portas , & diligenter attende : imò non Coeli , sed Coeli Coelorum : & tunc , quod dicimus , intueberis : Mounte vp therefore vnto the gates of Heauen , and diligently consider : Naie , I saie not , vnto the gates of Heauen , but vnto the gates of the Heauen of Heauens : and so shal ye see the thinges , that wee speake of .

But what meante you , M. Hardinge , thus out of season to presse in with your Lenten Argumente , and to saie , It is Superstitious with you , to Eate drie , and Lemen Meates ? If ye saie , there can be no Superstition in choise of meates , either yée are deceiued your selfe , or els séeke occasion by the waie , to deceiue others .

Tertullian saithe , Lenten meates . Tertull. in Epistola De Cibis Iudaicis . Deus ventre non colitur , nec cibis , quos Dominus dicit perire , & in secessu , naturali Lege purgari . Nam qui per Escas Dominum colit , prope est , vt Dominum habeat ventrem suum : God is not honoured with the Belly , nor with meates , whiche the Lorde Christe saithe , doo perishe , and are purged in conueiance by Natural Order . For who so by Meates honoureth the Lorde , in a manner maketh his Belly to be his Lorde . Hilari . in Psal●um . 64. S. Hilarie saithe , Haeretici sicco Panis Cibo viuunt . Sed quis tandem oriosi huius propositi profectus est ? Totum hoc inane , atque ridiculum est , & cum ipsis Superstitionis causis miserabile : Heretiques liue by drie Breade . But what profit is there in this idle purpose ? It is altogeather vaine , and foolishe , and in respecte of the causes of their Superstition , it is also Miserable .

S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . ad Nepotianum . Quid prodest oleo non vesci , & molestias quasdam , difficultatesque ciborum quaerere , Caricas , Piper , Nuces , Palmarum fructus , Similam , Mel , Pistacia ? Audio praetereà , quosdam contra regulam , hominumque Naturam , aquam non bibere , nec vesci Pane : sed sorbitìunculas delicatas , & contrita olera , betarumque succum , non Calice sorbere , sed Concha : Prò pudor . Non erubescimus istiusmodi ineptijs ? nec taedet Superstitionis ? Insuper etiam famam abstinentiae in delicijs quaerimus : What auaileth it , to eate no Oile , and with paine , and mutche adoo , curiousely to seeke for meates , Figges , Peper , Nuttes , Dates , fine white Breade , Hoony , and Pistacia ? Biside this , I heare saie , there be somme , whiche contrarle to the common order , and Nature of menne , wil neither drinke water , nor Eate breade : but seeke for delicate suppinges , and Herbes shridde togeather , and the iuice of Beetes , and receiue the same , not out of a Cuppe , but out of a Shelle . Phy for shame . Doo wee not blusshe at sutche foolishnesse ? Are wee not weery of sutche superstition ? And yet biside al this , liuinge in sutche curiouse delicacie , wee looke to be praysed for our Fastinge . To leaue al others , Erasmus , Erasm . in Anno. in 14. ad Roma . a man of greate Iudgemente , saithe , Maior est in his rebus Superstitio apud Christianos , quàm vnquam fuit inter Iudaeos : There is more Superstition herein emonge Christians , then euer was emonge the Iewes . Wée weighe not the choise of Fishe , or Fleashe : but the burthen of the minde , and the snare of the Conscience .

But , to passe ouer your néedelesse Lenten talke , the Feaste , that wee sette before the people , is neither drie , nor carrien , ( notwithstandinge it liketh you , by your vnciuile termes , so to cal it ) but Spiritual , Holy , and Heauenly : I meane , the very Body of Iesus Christe the Sonne of God , to the comforte , and reliuinge of Body , and Soule . And yet , for as mutche as it so wel deliteth your eares , to calle it carrien , wée refuse not the name . Chrysostome likewise , although in more reuerende , and Ciuile sense , calleth it Carrien . These be his woordes , Vbi est Cadauer , ibi sunt Aquilae . Chrysostom . 1. Corin. Homi. 24. Cadauer Domini corpus est propter Mortem . Aquilas autem appellat , vt ostendat , ad alta eum opotere contendere , qui ad hoc Corpus accedit , & nihil cum terra debere illum habere commune , nec ad inferiora trahi , & repere , sed ad superiora semper volare , & in Solem Iustitiae intueri , mentisque oculum habere acutissimum . Aquilarum enim , non Graculorum , est haec Mensa : Where as the carrien is , there are the Egles . The Carrien is the Body of Christe , in respecte of his Deathe . But he nameth Egles , to shewe , that , who so wil approche to this Body , muste mounte alofte , and haue no dealinge with the Earthe , nor be drawen , and creepe downewarde : but must euer more flee vp , and beholde the Sonne of Iustice , and haue the eie of his minde quicke and sharpe . For this is a Table of Egles , that flee on highe : not of Iaies , that créepe beneathe .

Ye adde further , But , saie ye , at the Lordes Supper Christe geueth him selfe verily presente . To what purpose ? I praie you . That wee maie Eate him ( saie ye ) by Faithe , and Sprite . Wel reasoned forsoothe . Now forsoothe , M. Hardinge , this is Hicke Scorners Logique , farre vnméete for a man of your grauitie .

Haue ye foregotten ( saie you ) the geuinge to eate , Verily Presente . and eating that whiche is geuen , to be Relatiues , one of them hauing relation to the other ? If Christe doo exhibite him selfe , verily presente , dooth not he so exhibite or geue him selfe , as he wil be receiued ? If he geue him selfe verily present , wee take him verily Presente . And then wee eate him verily Presente , not onely by Faithe , and sprite , but by takinge him into our Mouth , and Belly . Verily , M. Hardinge , this , of your parte , was not very wel reasoned . For a man maie haue Christe verily Presente , although he haue him not in his mouth . Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 50. S. Augustine saithe , Habes Christum In Praesenti , per Signum : In Praesenti , per Fidem : In Praesenti ▪ per Baptismatis Sacramentum : Thou haste Christe in the time Presente , by his Signe , or Token : In the time Presente , by Faithe : In the time Presente , by the Sacramente of Baptisme . And S. Augustine imagineth Christe thus to saie vnto the people of Caper●aum , Augu. in Psal. 9● Non hoc Corpus , quod videris , manducaturi estis : Ye shal not eate ( with your bodily mouthe ) this Body of mine , that you see . Wée remember wel the Relation , that is bitweene Geuing , and Receiuing : and therefore wée marueile so mutche the more , that you so vnskilfully woulde abuse it . For as Christe offereth his Body Spiritually to our Faith , and Sprite : euen so Spiritually by our Faithe , and Sprite wée receiue it . And where ye saie . Wée take Christes Body into our Mouthes , and Bodies , as hauing foregotten that Christe saithe , The woordes , that I haue spoken , be Sprite , and Life , S. Augustine woulde soone haue remoued you from this grosse errour . For thus he saithe vnto you , Quid paras Dentem , & Ventrem ? Crede : & manducasti : What pre●arest thou thy Tooth , and thy Belly ? ( This Eatinge is Spiritual ) . Beleeue ( in Christe ) and thou haste eaten .

S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . in Lucam , Li. 6. Ca. 8. Fide tangitur Christus : Fide videtur . Non tangitur Corpore : non oculis comprehenditur : By Faithe Christe is touched : By Faithe he is seene . He is not touched with Body : He is not seene with eie .

Likewise saithe Gregorius Nyssenus S. Basiles Brother , Gregor. Nyssen . De Creatione Hominis , Cap. 20 Ego aliam Escam agnosco , quae Similitudinem quandam proportionis escae huis corporis gerat : Cuius voluptas atque suauitas ad animum solummodò transeat : I knowe an other kinde of Meate , bearing the Likenesse , and resemblance of our bodily Meate ( for that this inwardly féedeth the minde , as the other outwardely féedeth the body ) The pleasure , and sweetenesse whereof ( goeth not into the Mouth , or Belly , but ) passeth onely into the soule . Thus wée vnderstande our selues , M. Hardinge : and deceiue not , as you saie , the Soules , that Christe hath bought . God foregéeue you , and others , that so haue donne , that the Bloude of many be not required at your handes .

Your errour , ye saie , in makinge the Presence of Christe in Baptisme like to his Presence in the Supper , is too grosse . Here is one erroure more , then any of the Learned Catholique Fathers euer noted . S. Chrysostome saithe , In the Sacramente of Baptisme wee are made Fleashe of Christes Fleashe , Chryso . in Epist. ad Ephe. Hom. 20 Bernard . Super Missus est . Hom. 3 Leo in Sermon . de 4. Feria . Ca. 1. and Bone of his Bones . S. Bernarde saithe , Lauemur in Sanguine eius : Let vs be wasshed in his Bloude . Leo saith , Christi Sanguine rigaris , quando in Mortem ipsius Baptizaris : Thou arte washte in the Bloude of Christe , when thou arte Baptized in his Death .

By these fewe it maie appeare , that Christe is Presente at the Sacramente of Baptisme , euen as he is Presente at the Holy Supper : Onlesse ye wil saie , wée maie be made Fleashe of Christes Fleashe : and be washte in his Bloude : and be part●takers of him : and haue him Presente , without his Presence . Therefore Chrysostome , when he hath spoken vehemently of the Sacramente of the Supper , he concludeth thus , Sic & in Baptismo , Euen so is it also in the Sacramente of Baptisme . The Body of Christe is likewise Presente in them bothe . And for that cause Beda saithe , Beda in 1. Cor. ●● Nulli est aliquatenus ambigendum , tunc vnumquenque Fidelium Corporis Sanguinisque Dominici participem fieri , quando in Baptismate Membrum Christi efficitur : Noman maie doubte , but euery Faitheful man is then made partetaker of the Body and Bloude of Christe , Spiritual Eatinge . when in Baptisme he is made the Member of Christe . As for your Real , and Fleashely Presence , it hath benne often talkte of on your parte , but neuer proued .

Wée saie , Wée touche not christes Body with our Mouthe , or Téeth . What , saie you , be ye vsed to swallowe down whole morselles ? Sutche childishe , and wanton talke , M. Hardinge , specially in the debatinge of maters of Religion , woulde better becomme somme lighter Personne . Wée knowe , that , as S. Augustine saithe , Gratia Christi non Consumitur morsibus : Augu. in Iohan. Tracta . 27. Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 25. The Grace of Christe is not Consumed by moreselles . Ye might haue made the like answeare to S. Augustine : For he saith to you , as I haue alleaged him before , What prepareste thou thy Toothe , and thy Belly ? O M. Hardinge , the Eatinge of the Body of Christe , is a woorke Spiritual , and needeth neither brusinge of toothe : nor swallowinge of throte : nor healpe of the owtwarde , and bodily mouthe . If ye know thus mutche , why doo you dissemble it ? If ye know it not , ye comme too rathe , to speake of these thinges .

S. Basile saith , Basili in Psal. 33. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basili in eund . Psalmum 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cyprian . De Coena Domini . Augu in Psal. 48 Augu in Iohan. Tracta 26. 4. Senten . Dist. 10 Secundum hos. Chryso . in 1. Cor. Homil. 24. Est Spirituale Os Interioris Hominis , quod nutritur recipiens Verbum vitae , quod Verbum est Panis qui descendit de Coelo : There is a Spiritual Mouthe of the Inner man , whiche is nourished by receiuinge ( Christe ) the Woorde of Life , whiche is the Breade that came from Heauen . Againe he saith , Gustare , & vide●e , quòd suauis est Dominus . Saepe obseruauimus , vires animi habere nomina ab aliqua similitudine Membrorum Corporis . Quoniam ergo Dominus noster est Verus Panis , & eius Caro est Verus Cibus , necesse est , eam voluptatem , quae ex illius Panis delectatione affertur , in nobis per gustum existere Spiritualem : Taste ye , and see , that our Lorde is groceous . Wee haue oftentimes marked , that the Powers of the minde haue theire names , from somme likenesse of the partes of the Body . Therefore seeinge our Lorde is Breade in deede , and his Fleashe is Verily Meate , it cannot be chosen , but the pleasure , and sweetenesse of that Breade muste be wrought in vs ( not by our bodily mouthe , but ) by the Spiritual taste of the soule .

S. Cyprian saith , Esus Carnis eius , quaedam est auiditas , & quoddam desiderium manendi in eo : The Eating of that Fleashe , is a certaine greedinesse , and a certaine desire to dwelle in him . S. Augustine saith , Ipse est Panis Cordis nostri , Christe is the Breade ( not of our Belly , but ) of our Harte . And againe , Intus Esuri , Intus siti : Hunger thou within : Thirste thou within . Likewise againe he saithe , vide●e , Fratres , Panem Coelestem : Spirituali Ore manducate : O my Brethren , beholde this Heauenly Breade : Eate it with the Spiritual , or Inner Mouthe of the Minde .

Thus are wee taught to eate that Spiritual Meate , without chewinge , or swallowinge , or vse , or office of the bodily Mouthe . Therefore S. Augustine saith , Non manducans , manducat : & manducans , non manducat : He that eateth not , eateth : and he that eateth , eateth not .

But Chrysostome saith , Quod omnium Maximum est , atque Praecipuum , in terra non conspicaris tantùm , sed etiam tangis : nec tangis tantùm , sed etiam comedis : The greattest , and woorthiest thinge that is , thou dooste not onely beholde in the Earthe , but also toucheste it : Neither dooste thou onely touche it , but also catest it . Here , I beseche you , M. Hardinge , dissemble no l●nger : but speake plainely . Howe doo you beholde the Body of Christe in the Sacramente ? With what senses ? With what eies doo you sée it ? If ye saie , with your bodily eies , why saie you , Christes Body is there Inuisible , couered with Accidentes , and cannot be séene ? If ye saie , ( as it is in deede ) that yée see the same Body onely with the Spiritual eies of your Minde . then ye allege Chrysostome directely , and plainely againste your selfe .

But S. Augustine saithe , Habet Fides oculos suos , Faithe hath her eies , to see withal . August . Epist. 84. Bernard . Meditation . Cap. 6. And S. Bernarde saithe , Visio animae , intellectus est : The seeinge of the Soule , is vnderstandinge . With these eies wée sée Christe , that is to saie , wée vnderstande Christe , or beléeue in Christe . S. Augustine saith , Velamen positum erat contra faciem eorum , Iudas . ne viderent Christum in Scripturis : Augu. in Euaengelium secund. Lucam Serm. 49 Chry●osto . in Genesim , Homil. 10. There was a vele laide ouer theire face , that they shoulde not see Christe in the scriptures .

Chrysostome saithe , Non tantum praestare possunt Corporales oculi , qui visibilia cernunt , quantum oculi piritus , qui ea , quae non videntur , néque subsistunt , videre possunt : These bodily eies , that see thinges visible , cannot doo so mutche , as the eies of the Sprite . For theise eyes are hable to see the thinges , that be not seene , and haue no beeinge . Likewise againe he saithe , Chryso . De Verb. Esai . Vidi Domi. Homil. 3. Oculi animi , etiamsi Parietes , etiami moenia , etiamsi montium moles , etiami coelorum Corpora compererint obstantia , omnia facilè praetercurrunt : The eies of the minde , notwithstandinge they finde Walles , or Mountaines , or the Bodies of the Heauens to stande againste them , yet wil they easily passe through them al. With these eies , saithe Chrysostome , wee see that moste woorthy , Chryso . in Marcum Homil. 6. Hierony . in Amos . Lib 3. Ca 9. Ambros . in Oratione ▪ De Fide Resurrectionis . and moste glorious Body of Christe . Therefore he saithe , Credamus , & videmus Praesentem Iesum : Let vs beleeue : and wee see Iesus Presente before vs . Likewise S. Hierome saithe , Est intelligentia Spiritualis , qua Christus cernitur : There is a Spiritual vnderstandinge , wherewith Christe is seene . Otherwise , S. Ambrose saithe , Christum nunc secundum veritatem videre non possumus : As now , according to the Truthe , ( with bodily sight ) wee cannot see Christe .

Nowe , as the Body of Christe is seene , so is it touched : and , as it is touched , so is it Eaten . But it is not seene with Bodily eies : It is not touched with bodily fingers : Ambros in Lucam , Li. 6. Ca. 8. For S. Ambrose saith , Fide tangitur Christus : Fide Christus videtur : By Faithe Christe is touched : By Faithe Christe is seene : Therefore the Body of Christe is not Eaten with the bodily mouthe , but onely by Faith , whiche is the Spiritual mouthe of the Soule .

Iudas , ye saye , who had but a meane Faithe , bicause he receiued the Sacramente , receiued Him also . O , howe mutche is poore Iudas beholden to these menne ? Christe calleth him the Childe of Perdition : Iohan. 6. Iohan. 13. S. Iohn saithe , The Diuel was entred into him . Againe Christe saithe , He was a Diuel . Therefore this Meane Faithe , that you allowe him , muste néedes be a very litle prety Faithe : euen sutche a Faithe as ye might wel allowe the Diuel .

Yet with the same Meane Faith , ye saie , Receiuinge the Sacrament , he receiued Christe also . Firste it is not wel and thorowly agreed vpon , that Iudas receiued the Sacrament , or was present at al at the Laste Supper . S. Hilarie saithe plainely , He was gonne foorthe aboute his wicked pourpose , Hilar. in Matth. Canon . 30. and receiued it not . But be it , that S. Hilarie were deceiued , and that Iudas receiued the Sacramente . Yet , as it is saide before , Christes Body is one thinge : and the Sacramente of Christes Body is an other thinge . S. Augustine saithe , Discipuli manducabant Panem Dominum : Iudas Panem Domini , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 59. contra Dominum : The Disciples did eate the Breade , whiche is the Lord : But Judas did eate ( not the Lorde , but ) the ( Sacrament , whiche is the ) Breade of the Lorde , Augu. in Psal. 3. against the Lorde . And yet in plainer sorte he saithe , Christus adhibui● Iudam ad Conuiuium , in quo Corporis , & Sanguinis sui Figuram Discipulis suis Commendauit , & tradidit : Christe admitted Judas vnto his Table , whereat he gaue , and deliuered vnto his Disciples a Figure of his Body . Againe S. Augustine saithe , as in the Personne of Christe , Augu. De Ciuita . Li. 21. Cap. 25. Qui in me non manet , & in quo ego non manco , ne se dicat , aut existimet manducare Corpus meum , aut Sanguinem meum bibere : He that abideth not in me , and I in him , let him not saie , or thinke , that he either eateth my Body , or drinketh my Bloude .

The obiection that ye make of the Resurrection of our bodies , is light , and vaine , and to smal pourpose . For if noman shal haue parte in the Resurrection , but onely they that haue receiued the Sacramente of Christes Body , then are al the Holy Fathers , Patriarches , and Prophetes of the Olde Testamente , Abraham , Isaac , Iacob , Moses , Aaron , and sutche others : then are infinite numbers of Christian Children : Promisse made to Faithe . then are many Godly Martyrs , whiche , beinge Baptized in the Bloude of Christe , were taken out of this life , before they coulde receiue the Sacramente , vtterly excluded for euer from al hope of Resurrection . But Christe , when he spake these Woordes , meante not the reciuinge of the Sacramente , but the Spiritual Eatinge of his Very Body , and the Spiritual Drinkinge of his Very Bloude : Whereof he is made partetaker vnto Resurrection , and Life Euerlastinge , who so euer beleeueth in the Death of Christe . And therefore S. Basile saith of the Sacramente of Baptisme , Basilius , Des ancto Baptismate . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Baptisma est vis , & efficacia ad Resurrectionem : Baptisme is a Power , and a strength vnto Resurrection . But hereof wee shal haue occasion offered to saie more hereafter .

Further , Howe can ye assure your selues , saye you , that your Faithe receiueth the Body of Christe , Whiche was neuer promised to your Faithe ? By the waie , I beséeche you , M. Hardinge , when , or where was Christes Body euer promised to your Mouthe ? Verily Christe promised his Body to he receiued by Faithe , and by Faithe Onely , and none otherwise . Iohan. 6. For thus he saithe , Ego sum Panis ille Vitae : qui venit ad me , non esurier : & qui credit in me , non sitiet vnquam : I am that Breade of Life : He that commeth vnto me , shal neuer hunger : and he that Beleeueth in me , shal neuer thirste . Here haue you , M. Hardinge , a plaine promisse made vnto our Faithe . But of your Mouthe , wée heare nothinge . If you haue ought to shewe out of the Scriptures , Doctours , or Councelles , let it appeare , & that in plaine woordes , without coloure . Otherwise , if ye cauil in woordes , wée muste saie , ye haue nothinge . Therefore the Auncient Father Origen saith , Idcircò dicitur Panis vitae , vt habeat Gustus Animae , quod deguster : Origen . in Cantica , Homil. 2. Therefore is Christe called the Breade of Life , that ( our Faithe whiche is ) the Taste of our soule , maie houe , what to taste .

Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , Clemens in Paedagog● , Lib. 1. Cap. 6. Comedite Carnes meas , & Bibite Sanguinem meum : Euidenter Fidei , & Promissionis , quod est Esculentum , & Poculentum dicens allegoricè : Eate my Fleashe , and Drinke my Bloude : Meaninge hereby vnder an Allegorie , or , by waie of a Figure , the Meate , and Drinke , that is of ( our ) Faithe , and ( his ) Promisse .

Tertullian saith , Tertullian . De Resurrectione Carnis . Eundem Sermonem Christus etiam Carnem suam dixit : quia Sermo Caro factus est . Proinde in causa vitae recipien dus : Deuorandus auditu : Ruminandus intellectu : & Fide Digerendus est : The same Woorde , Christe called his Fleashe : For the Woorde was made Fleashe . Therefore he muste be receiued in cause of Life : He muste be Deuoured by hearing : He muste be chewed by vnderstandinge : He muste be Digested by Faithe .

S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . De Coena Domini . Augu. in Iohan. Tracta . 26. Augu. De Verb. Apostol. Serm. 2. Quod est esca Carni , hoc est Animae Fides : As Meate is to the Fleashe , so is Faithe vnto the Soule . S. Augustine saithe , Credere in eum , hoc est , Manducare : Illud Eibere , quid est , nisi viuere ? To Beleeue in him , is to Eate him . That Drinkinge of him , what is it els , but to liue by him ?

I truste , M. Hardinge , it maie appeare hereby , there is somme promisse made hereof vnto our Faithe . Nowe shewe you as euidente Promisse made to your Mouthe , and Belly : and then your Reader happily wil beleeue you .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 2.

And therefore in celebratinge these Mysteries , the People are to good pourpose exhorted , before they comme to receiue the Holy Communion , to lifte vp theire Hartes , and to directe theire mindes to Heauen warde : bicause he is there , by whom wee muste be fedde , and liue .

M. Hardinge .

I praie you , Sursum Corda . Whiche these Mysteries meane ye ? Those that ye haue in your newe communion , or those that we haue at the aulter of God in the Catholike Churche of Christe ? If ye meane your owne newe deuised toye , thereof ye cannot bringe any sufficient reason againste the Churche , pardy , whiche condemneth the same . If ye meane the Holy Mysteries of the Catholike Churche , ye misreporte the mater . For by that exhortation , ye speake of , * * Vntruth . Here M. Hardinge misreporteth his owne Masse-booke . the people are not prepared to receiue the Communion onely , nor chifely : but to dispose them selues accordingly and as it becommeth them to praie : for to that ende be these woordes , Sursum corda , vp with your hartes , pronounced by the Prieste in the Preface before prayer . Reade S. Cyprian in Sermone 6. De Oratione Dominica . And ye shal finde him to referre the whole to praier . But what if we admitte your woordes , refusinge your Heretical meaninge ? We graunte , the people are to good purpose so exhorted , as ye saie , and that he is in Heauen , whose fleash we feede on in this Sacramente , thereby to attaine to life Euerlastinge . What conclude ye of this ? Ergo he is not here ? For at that marke ye shoote , euery man maye see . Here we tel you , that your Rhetorike is better stuffe , A foolishe argument . In Epist. ad Heb. Homil. 17. Christe is both in Heauen and also here in the Sacrament . then your Logike : for your argumente is foolishe . With the one ye maie leade the simple perhaps , with the other ye moue the Learned to laugh at you . For Christe is in Heauen , and also here , as Chrysostome saithe , Et hic plenus existens , & illic plenus , Vnum Corpus . * * Christe is in Heauen , by the Substance of his Body : & here by workinge , or by Grace . He is here fully , and there fully , one Body . These two propositions , Christe is in Heauen , and Christe is here , may wel stande togeather , without iuttinge the one the other out of place . He is there at the right hande of the Father visibly , he is here vnder the Formes of Breade and Wine , inuisibly : there in glorie , here in Mysterie ▪ yet as truly and fully here , as there , concerninge his ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Chrysostome neuer , neither wrote so , nor meante so . Substance , as Chrysostome saith . Ye procede foorth , and saie .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It maye becomme you , M. Hardinge , as wel to cal the reuerende Ministration of Christes Holy Mysteries , a Toie , as to cal the Gospel of Christe , Erroure , and Heresie . So likewise Libanius the Heathen , although a man , I trow , not of your Profession , saide sommetime , that al the Bookes , either of the Scriptures , or of any the Christian Fathers , Socrat. li. 3. ca. 22 Christianorum Libri ridiculi ▪ & nugaces , si cum Iuliani Libris conferantur . in comparison of Iulianus the Renegates Bookes , were toies . and trifles . Howe be it , Our Toies be the same Toies , that were once vsed , and allowed vniuersally throughout the Catholique Churche of God , before your Masse was euer knowen , and were then thought no Toies .

Touchinge these woordes , Sursum corda , Lifte vp your Hartes , ye saie they were applied in olde times vnto praier , and not onely , or chiefely to the Ministration of the Sacramente : and that , as ye séeme to saie , by the witnesse of S. Cyprian . As for these emptie Woordes , Onely , or Chiefely , ye vse them onely as a false light , to blinde your Reader . For in our Apologie yee founde them not .

Touchinge S. Cyprian , Yée thought it beste to dissemble , and to shifte his woordes , and to commaunde him to silence . For thus he saithe , euen directely againste the whole practise of your Churche : Cyprian . in Oratione Domini . Sacerdos ante Orationem , Praefatione praemissa , parat Fratrum mentes , dicendo , Sursum Corda : vt dum respondet Plebs , Habemus ad Dominum , admoneatur , nihil aliud se , quàm Dominum , cogitare debere : Before Praier , the Priest with a Preface prepareth the hartes of the Brethren , saieinge vnto them , Lifte vp your Hartes : that , when the People answeareth , Wee lifte them vp vnto the Lorde , they maie be put in minde , to thinke of nothing els , but of the Lorde . Where is this order , M. Hardinge , where is this Ecclesiastical Tradition now becomme ? Throughout your whole Territorie of Rome , in what Churche , in what Chaple is it keapte ? Where doothe your people answeare the Prieste at the Common Praier ? Or where dooth the people vnderstande , either the meaning of the Sacramentes , or any thing , that is pronounced by the Priest ? Or why are you so vnaduised , to allege manifeste Authorities against your selfe ?

Ye saie , Sursum Corda . the people was taught by these woordes , not to consider , what was meant onely by the Sacramentes , but to geue attendance vnto the Praier : Wherein your own Massebooke is cas●ly hable to control you . And in the Greeke Liturgies , not before any other publike Praier , but immediately before the Holy Ministration , the Prieste saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Let vs lifte vp our Hartes . And Chrysostome saithe , Chryso . ex varijs locis in Matthae . Homil. 9. Augu. in Psal. 39 Clamamus in conspectu Sacrificij , Sursum Corda : Wee crie alowde in the sight of the Oblation , Lifte vp your Hartes . S. Augustine saithe , Sursum Corda Habeamus . Si Resurrexistis cum Christo , dicit Fidelibus Corpus , & Sanguinem Domini accipientibus , dicit , Si Resurrexistis cum Christo , quae sursum sunt , sapite : vbi Christus est in Dextra Dei sedens : Quae sursum sunt , quaerite : non quae super terram : Let vs lifte vp our Hartes . If ye be risen againe with Christe , he saith vnto the Faitheful , he saithe vnto them , that receiue the Body , and Bloude of our Lorde , If ye be risen againe with Christe , sauer those thinges , that are aboue : where Christe is al the right Hande of God : Seeke for the thinges that be aboue : not for the thinges , that be in Earthe . August . De Bono Perseueran Li. 2 Cap. 13. August . De Bono Viduitatis , Cap 16. Alexander Halen . 4. Quaest. 37. mem. 1. Arti. 3. Par. 1. Cap. 9. Againe he saithe , In Sacramentis Fidelium dicitur , vt Sursum Corda habeamus ad Dominum : At the Ministration of the Sacramentes of the Faithful , it is saide , Let vs lifte vp our Hartes vnto the Lorde .

Likewise againe , Inter Sacra Mysteria Cor habere Sursum iubemur In the time of the Holy Mysteries , wee are commaunded to Lifte vp our Hartes .

But what néede wee to rehearse the Ancient Fathers ? Your own late New Doctours haue saide the like . And to leaue the reste , your own Manipulus Curatorum , that is to saie , the Ordinarie , and Direction of al your whole Cleregie . saith thus , Sacerdos ante Canonem dicit , Sursum Corda : Quasi dicat , quòd volens sumere istud Sacramentum , debet habere Cor suum eleuatum ad Deum : Before the Canon the Prieste saithe , Lifte vp your Hartes : As if he woulde saie , who so wil receiue this Sacramente , ought to haue his Harte lifted vp vnto God .

These woordes be plaine , and can in no wise be denied . It were wisedome , M. Hardinge , in sutche cases , to auouche nomore , then ye knowe . Otherwise your woordes wil goe for Toies .

Howe be it , the matter beinge graunted , that these woordes perteine to the Holy Ministration , yet if wee woulde reason thus , Christes Body is in Heauen : Therefore it is not Really , and Fleashely in the Sacramente , Ye saie , Wee shoulde make a foolishe Argumente : Our Rhetorique is better stuffe , then our Logique .

This Argumente , M. Hardinge , is taken of the Nature of Christes Humanitie : whiche beinge the Very Natural Body of a Man , by the Iudgemente of the Auncient Fathers , muste needes be in one onely place at one time , and can reache no further . For otherwise it were not a Very Natural Mannes Body . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , De Conse . Dist. 2. Prima . Augusti . Contra Faustum , Lib. 20. Cap. 11. as he is alleged by Gratian , Corpus Domini , in quo Resurrexit , in vno loco esse oportet : The Body of our Lorde , wherein he rose againe , muste needes be in one Place . Like wise againe he saithe , Christus secundum Praesentiam Corporalem , simul & in Sole , & in Luna , & in Cruce esse non potuit : Touchinge Bodily presence , Christe coulde not be in the Soone , in the Moone , and vpon the Crosse , al at once .

And againe , Augu. Epist. 221. Christus vbique est , Virtute , non Opere : Diuinitate , non Carne : Christe is euery where , By his Power , not in deede : By his Godhed , not by his Fleashe .

S. Cyril saithe , Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 9. Cap. 22. Christus cum Discipulis suis , etfi non Corpore , tamen Virtute Deitatis semper futurus est : Christ wil euermore be with his Disciples , by the Power of his Diuinitie : although not in his Body . Therefore , to conclude , S. Augustine saith , Videre Ascendentem : Aug● in Psal. 46 Credite in Absentem : Sperate venientem : Tamen per Misericordiam occultam etiam sentire Praesentem : Behold Christe Ascendinge : Beleaue in Christe beinge Absente : Truste in Christe , that shal comme againe , And yet by his priuie mercie feele him Presente . Christes Body in one place . Beleeue , saith S. Augustine , in Christe , Beinge nowe Absente , and not here .

Thus the Auncient Catholique Fathers were bolde reuerently to reason of Christes Humanitie : yet was not M. Hardinge yet borne , that shoulde so bitterly charge them with Foolishe Argumentes . Ruffini in Hieronym . Inuectiua Prior. Nay , rather Ruffinus saithe , Stulta adinuentio Calumniae est , Corpus Humanum aliud esse putare , quàm Carnem : It is but a Foolishe findinge of a Cauil , to saie , that the Body of a Man is any other thing , then Fleashe .

But Chrysostome saithe , Christe is whole here , and whole there But . Chrysostome in the same place many waies expoundeth his whole meaning : For thus he saithe , Chrysos . in Epist. ad Hebr. Hom. 17 if it woulde haue pleased M. Hardinge to haue seene his woordes , Offerimus quidem , sed ad Recordationem facientes Mortis eius : Hoc Sacrificium Exemplar illius est : Hoc , quod nos facimus , in Commemorationem fit eius , quod factum est . Idipsum semper offerimus : Magis autem Recordationem Sacrificij Operamur : Wee offer in deede : But in Remembrance of his Deathe . This Sacrifice is a Token , or Figure of that Sacrifice . The thinge , that wee doo , is sonne in Remembrance of that thinge , that was donne before . We offer alwaie the same thing ( that Christe offered ) . Nay rather , wee woorke the Remembrance of that Sacrifice ( that Christe offered ) . Notwithstanding , to spare time , Artic. 6. Diui. 8. this Obiection is answeared more at large in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge .

But , whereas M. Hardinge saith , Christes Body is as fully here , as it is in Heauen , concerninge the Substance , as Chrysostome saithe , He woulde , vnder the name of that Holy Father , wilfully warrante a greate Vntruth . For Chrysostome saith not , Christes Body is Presente in Substance : He hathe no sutche woordes : He saithe not so : He saithe the contrarie : as namely , where he saithe , as it is before alleged , The very Body of Christe it selfe is not in the Holy vessels : Chrysostom in Matth. Homil. 11. but the Mystene , or Sacramente thereof is there conteined .

Touchinge these woordes , Onlesse ye can diuise a Newe Grammare , & make Sursum to be Deorsum , & contrarie to Nature , turne al thinges vpsidedown , & thus make your Construction , Sursum Corda , Looke downewarde , they wil but meanely make for your pourpose . S. Hierome saithe , Secundus Aduentus Saluatoris in Gloria demonstrandus est . Stultum est ergo illum in paruo , aut abscondito loco quaerere , Hieron . in Matthae . Cap. 14. qui totius est Mundi Lumen : The Seconde Comming of our Saueoure shal be declared in Glorie . Seeinge therefore he is the Light of the Worlde , it is greate folie , to seeke him in any smal Corner .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 3.

Cyrillus saithe , when wee comme to receiue these Mysteries , al grosse imaginations muste quite be baunished .

M. Hardinge .

Why do ye not by your quotation directe vs to the place , where this saieinge of Cyrill maye be founde ? Knowe ye not that wee haue good cause to suspecte your dealinge ? Do we not almoste euery where finde you in manifeste lies ? This is a quainte easte of M Hardinges Copia Verberum . If ye meane plaine Truthe , why deale ye not plainely ? Christes saieinge muste needes be true , Cyril guilefully alleaged . Iohan. 5. The place of Cyril tourned vpon the Defenders . Who euil dothe , hateth light . Bicause ye knewe the place maketh directely againste you , and subuerteth your whole Sacramentarie Doctrine , ye thought it good policie , to take a woord or two for your purpose , and leaue the reste , trustinge it shoulde not be espied . Wherein ye do like the Scorpion , that casteth foorth his venim with the spirte of his taile , and foorthwith creapeth awaie into a hole . Woulde God as ye abuse the name of Cyril , so ye woulde stande to the Truthe by him euen in that place , whiche ye allege , Substantially declared Who listeth to see the place , let him reade Cyrilles answeare to Theodori●es reprehension of the eleuenth anathematisme against Nestorius . There he sheweth , that Nestorius destroyed the meane of the Vnion of be the Natures in Christe , to th intent the Body of Christe might be founde but a common body as men haue , and not a Body propre of the Woorde , The Heresie of Nestorius . hauinge power to viuificate , or quicken al thinges . * * Nestorius Heresie stoode neither in Transubstantiation , nor in Real Presence . For Nestorius diuided Christe , and taught the woorde to be the Sonne of God , not of Mary : and Christe Man the Sonne of Mary onely , as Man : and dissolued the whole Mysterie of the incarnation so , as Christe shoulde be an other certaine Sonne beside the Woorde . And because the ‡ ‡ The meaning is this : Wee cannot be fedde , or nourished by Christe , as he is in his Diuine Nature : but only by the Faithe that wee haue in his Fleashe Crucified . Nature of Godhed cannot be eaten , thereof he talked vainely and prophanely , that in the Sacramente wee eate Fleashe , and not Godhed . For confutation of this detestable Heresie , Cyril bringeth him to the consideration of the Blessed Sacramente , and opposeth him , whether he thought , that in the Sacramente Christe beinge ( by his Doctrine ) Man besides God the Woorde , wee eate a man , as one woulde saie , after sutche sorte , as the Barbarous people of the newe founde Lande America , called Caniballes , eate one another . But because that were absurde , and beastly , Cyril saithe that wee eate not a common Body , though the Nature of Godhed ‡ ‡ Vntruth guilefully enclosed : For neither the Fleash of Christe in ꝓ per speache can be Eaten . properly be not eaten , but that Body whiche is Proprium verbi , the proper Body of the Worde , whiche quickenethe al thinges , by receiuinge whereof * * Wee receiue whole Christe , God , and Man , not with our Mouthe , but by Faith , & Sprite . wee receiue whole Christe , God , and man . And here Cyril layeth to Nestorius charge , as though he draue men to grosse cogitations touchinge this Sacramente . The grosse imaginations that Cyril would to be eschewed in receiuing the blessed Sacramente . The woordes be these : Num hominis comestionem , &c. What doest thou pronounce this our Sacramente to be eatinge of a man ( the Greeke is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) and driueste vnreuerently the Minde of them as haue beleued vnto grosse imaginations , and attemptest with humaine imaginations , to treate of those thinges , whiche are attained by an onely , pure , and exquisite Faithe ? These be the grosse imaginations , whiche Cyrill woulde to be bannished at the receiuing of this Sacramente , and that wee eate the Body of Christe , not as beinge a common Body , as the Body of euery mortal Man : And though the Nature of Godhed be not eaten , that yet we eate that Body , whiche is the proper Body of the Woorde , that quickeneth al thinge . Nowe as ‡ ‡ A fond ●uasion . For the grossenesse hereof stoode not in Christes Body , but in the manner of Eatinge . we haue not that grosse imagination of eatinge a common Body , ( which of the Grekes , by a terme plainer to the learned , is called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) when we receiue this Sacramente : so it is euident by Cyril , that in the same * * With Our mouth wee receiue Onely the Sacrament : With our Faith wee Eate the Body of Christe Incarnate , Verily , and in deede . we eate verely , and in deede the Body of Christe , the Woorde incarnate . For otherwise his saieinges had not made ought againste the Heresie of Nestorius . And thus receiuinge Christes Body in the Sacramente , we receiue it truely , and with Faithe , and without grosse imaginations . Al this weighed , howe proue ye now , Christe to be so lodged in Heauen , that notwithstandinge his owne Woorde , ‡ ‡ O fonde grossenesse . Wee lacke not Christe : Although wee haue him not Fleashely Presente in our mouthes . wee lacke him here in these Holy Mysteries ? But let vs consider your other Authorities .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Touchinge the quotation in the margine , escaped in the Printe , that faulte , I truste , shal be amended . But howe wil you amende your faulte , M. Hardinge , so often alleginge sutche thinges , as your Conscience knoweth to be moste Vntrue ? I wil not wander far , to put you in minde . In the laste line of your Former Diuision , ye auouche that vpon Chrysostome , that you knowe , Chrysostome neuer , neither Wrote , nor meante . As for the manifeste Lies , wherewith ye so sharply , and so often charge vs , though there were somme Truthe in your chalenge , as there is none , yet might not wée therein in any wise compare with you . Concerninge the affiance , ye woulde séeme to haue in these woordes of Cyril , ye thought it good skil , thus to crowe out with somme courrage , before the fight .

In what sense the Godhed maie be eaten , or not eaten , I haue already saide so mutche , as then seemed sufficiente , in my Former Replie to your Firste Answeare . The meaninge of Cyrillus is this , Wée cannot , neither knowe , nor beleeue on , nor féede vpon the Diuine Maiestie of God , as it is pure , and Simple , and in it selfe : But al our knowledge , and al our Faithe , whiche is our Spiritual Féedinge , and Life , is deriued vnto vs through Iesus Christe , and standeth onely , and wholy in this , that the Sonne of God hath taken the Very Nature , and Substance of our Corruptible Fleashe , and ioined the same in One Personne vnto his Godhed . Nestorius . Hila. in Psal. 14● . Therefore S. Hilarie saithe , Cognitus fieri Deus hominibus , nisi assumpto Homine , non potuit . Quia Incognoscibilem cognoscere , nisi per Naturam nostram , Natura nostra non potuit : God coulde not be knowen vnto menne , but by the Receiuinge of Man vnto him . For God that sourmounteth al knowledge , Our Nature coulde not knowe , August . Confessionum . Li. 7. Ca. 18 but by the meane of our Nature . So saithe S. Augustine , Quaerebam viam comparandi roboris , quod effect idoneum ad fruendum te : Nec inueni , donec amplecterer Mediatorem Dei , & Hominum , Hominem Christum Iesum : I sought a waie to geate strengthe , whereby I might be hable to enioie thee : But I founde it not , before that I embraced Iesus Christe , whiche is the Mediatoure bitweene God , and Man . Againe he saithe , Christus Cibum , cui capiendo inualidus eram , miscuit Carni : Quoniam Verbum Caro factum est , vt infantiae nostrae lactesceret Sapientia tua : Christe tempered , and mingled his Meate ( whiche is his Godhed ) with his Fleashe : whiche Godhed otherwise I was not hable to receiue . For the Woorde was made Fleashe , that thy wisedome ( o God ) might becomme milke vnto our chilhoode .

Nestorius Heresie stood not either in Transubstantiation , or in Real Presence : but onely in the dissolution of the Personne of Christe , in that he diuided the Manhed of Christe from his Godhed : and so concluded in the ende , that Christe was onely a bare Natural Man , in al respectes , as others were . If it had benne so , then could wée not haue benne saued by the Deathe of Christe , nomore then by the Deathe of Codrus , and Decius : who beinge nothinge els , but Very Natural Menne , Hieronym . ad Ephesios , Cap. 1. gaue them selues to Deathe for the safetie of theire Countries . Neither could wée beléeue in Christe Crucified : that is to saie , wée coulde not Eate , nor Feede vpon the Body of Christe , Cyrillus ad Reginas : Ex Epist. ad Hebrae . or haue life by it . Cyrillus saithe : Quomodo purgabi● nos ab operibus mortuis ? Sanguis enim Communis Hominis nihil habet maius , quàm Sanguis Tauri , aut Hirci : Howe then shal Christe deliuer vs from deadly woorkes ? For the Bloude of Common Man hath nothinge more , ( to woorke Saluation ) then the Bloude of a bulle , or a goate . And therefore the same S. Cyril imagineth Christe to saie thus : Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 4. Cap. 18. Mortalem Carnem assumpsi : Sed quia Naturaliter Vita existens habito in ea , totam ad meam Vitam reformauli I haue taken Mortal Fleashe vpon me selfe . But , for as mutche , as I Naturally beinge Life , dwel in the same . I haue refourmed that whole Fleash vnto my Life . Leo De Passion ▪ Domi. Sermo. 13. So saithe Leo , Verus venerator Dominicae Passionis , sic Crucifixum Iesum Oculis Cordis aspiciat , vt illius Carnem suam esse cognoscat : Let the true woorshipper of our Lordes Passion so behold Christ Crucified with the eies of his harte , that he maie vnderstande , that the Fleashe of Christe is his Fleashe . But hereof , I trowe , M. Hardinge wil moue no greate question .

Further it is fully Confessed of either side , that wée by Faithe Eate the very Body of Christe , not as the Body of any other Common Natural Man , but as the Body of the Sonne of God : and , that the same Body so eaten by Faithe , and none otherwise , géeueth Life . But , how that Body maie be Eaten , therein standeth the whole doubte . Hereunto S. Cyril answeareth thus : Num Hominis Comestionem hoc nostrum Sacramentum pronuntias ? Cyrill . Anathematismo . 11. Et irreligiosè ad Crassas Cogitationes vrges mentem corum , qui crediderunt ? Et attentas humanis rationibus tractare ea , quae Sola , Pura , & Exquisita Fide accipiuntur ? Dooste thou saie , that our Sacramente is the Eating of a Man ? And doost thou vnreuerently , and without Religion force the mind of the Faithful vnto grosse , ( and Fleashely ) cogitations ? And goest thou about with Natural imaginations to deale those thinges , that be receiued by Onely , Pure , and Perfite Faithe ? These woordes séeme plaine , & frée from quarrel . Yet hereof maie grow an other doubte . For , by M. Hardinge Iudgement , to thinke , that Christes Body is to be receiued into our Mouthes , and Bellies , is no manner Grosse Imagination . But wée saie , as Cyrillus saith , to auoide al sutche vncomely , & Fleashly Vanities , Christes Body , and Bloude , Spiritual Eatinge . are a Spiritual foode , and muste be receiued , not with Mouthe , or Teethe , but with Onely , Pure , and Perfite Faithe .

Concerninge M. Hardinges fantasie , Pope Nicolas vnder a Solemne Protestation woulde haue vs to saie , De Conse . Dist. 2. Ego Berengarius . Ego Corde , & Ore profi●eor , non tantùm Sacramentum , sed etiam Corpus Christi in Veritate , sensualiter manibus Sacerdotum tractari , frangi , & dentibus Fidelium atteri : I professe with Harte , and Mouthe , that not onely the Sacramente , but also the Body of Christe it selfe in very Truthe , and deede is sensibly touched , and broken with the Priestes handes , and torne with the Teeth of the Faithful . But this talke is so fonde , and so vtterly voide of discretion , that the very Barbarous Glose is faine to control it in this sort : Nisi sanè intelligas ( ista ) Verba Berengarij , in maiorem incides haeresim , quàm ipse habuit : Onlesse thou wisely vnderstand these Woordes of Berengarius , thou wilte fal into a greatter Heresie , then euer he helde any .

S. Cyrils woordes be plaine , Sola , Pura , Exquisita Fide . Sola ▪ Pura , & exquisita Fide accipiuntur : These thinges be receiued ( not by Mouthe , but ) by Onely , Pure , and Perfite Faithe . Likewise againe he saith , Initium , & Fundamentum in Sanctificationem , & Iustitiam , Christus est , Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 4. Cap. 39. per Fidem , scilicet , & non aliter . Hoc enim modo in nobis habitat : Christe is the Beginninge , and Fundation vnto Holinesse , and Righteousnesse : I meane by Faithe , and none otherwise . For by Faithe Christe dwelleth in vs . So saith Clemens Alexandrinus , Clemens in Paedagogo , Lib. 2. Cap. 2. Hoc est Bibere Iesu Sanguinem , participem esse incorruptionis eius : This is the Drinkinge of the Bloude of Iesus , to be made partetaker of his Immortalitie . Origen saith , Est ergo ipse vulneratus : Cuius nos Sanguinem bibimus , id est , Origen . in Numer . Homi. 16. Athana . in illud Euangelij , Quicunque dixerit verbum . Doctrinae eius verba suscipimus : He was woounded : whoes Bloude wee Drinke , that is to saie , the Woordes of whoes Doctrine wee receiue .

But what is there so plaine , as these woordes of Athanasius ? Quot Hominibus suffecisset Corpus eius ad Cibum , vt Vniuersi Mundi alimonia fieret ? Propterea Ascensionis suae in Coelum mentionem fecit , vt eos à corporali intellectu abstraheret : Vnto howe many menne coulde Christes Body haue suffised for meate , that he should be the Foode of al the Worlde ? Therefore he made mention of his Ascension into Heauen : that he might withdrawe them from corporal , and Fleashely vnderstanding .

Here , M. Hardinge , I beseche you , tel vs by the waie , when ye teache vs , that Christes Body is Fleashely Presente : that it is receiued into the Mouthe : that it is chewed , and brused with teethe : and that it passeth further into the belly , howe doo you withdrawe our mindes from Fleashely , and Corporal vnderstandinge ? If this Eatinge be Spiritual , what Eatinge maye be coumpted Corporal ?

Hereof S. Augustine saith thus , Cùm videritis Filium Hominis ascendentem , vbi erat priùs , Augustin . in Iohan . Tractat. 27. Certè vel tunc videbitis , quòd non eo modo , quo putatis , erogat Corpus suum : Certè vel tunc intelligetis , quòd Gratia eius non consumitur morsibus : When ye shal see the Sonne of Man Ascendinge vp , where he was before . Then shal ye see , that he geeueth not his Body ( to be Eaten ) in sutche sorte , as you imagine : Then shal ye vnderstande , that his Grace is not consumed by morselles . And therefore againe he saithe , August . De Verbis Domi. Secund. ●uc . Sermon . 33. Nolite Pauces parare , sed Cor: Prepare not your Iawes , but your Harte .

This is the Very , True , Spiritual , and Onely Eating of Christes Body : and , what so euer fantasie M. Hardinge hath diuised bisides , of his Mouth , & Teethe , is , as S. Cyril saithe , a Vaine , Vnreuerente , Grosse , and Fleashely Imagination .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 4.

The Councel of Nice , as it is alleged by somme in Greeke , plainely forebiddeth vs to be basely affectioned , or bent towarde the Breade , and Wine , whiche are sette before vs .

M. Hardinge .

As the former parte of the sentence , whiche ye bringe out of the Nicene Councel , * * Vntruthes two togeather . Read the Answeare . soundeth nothing against the Catholikes , ( for they also teache the same ) : * * Vntruthes two togeather . Read the Answeare . so the later parte is directly contrary to your Doctrine , which ye thought good to leaue out , lest thereby ye should haue marred your whole matter . Sutche nipping , A marke to knowe Heretikes by . The wordes of the Nicene Councel , whiche make plainely for the Catholike Doctrine touchinge the Sacrament of the Aulter . and roundinge of sentences hath euer ben taken for a marke to know Heretikes by . Amonge wise men sutche practrise worthely bringeth you into suspicion of Vntruthe . The wordes of the Councel truely reported be these : Let vs not at the Diuine Table basely behold the Bread and Cuppe sette before vs : but liftinge vp our minde , let vs by Faithe vnderstande on that Holy Table to be laide the Lambe of God , that taketh awaie the sinnes of the Worlde , of Priestes Sacrificed vnbloudely . And receiuing his precious Body , and Bloude verily , let vs beleue these to be the pledges of our Resurrection . For in consideration hereof we take not mutche , but a litle , that we may knowe , we receiue not to fillinge ( of the Body ) but to Sanctimonie . Take the ende with the beginninge , and what maketh this decree of that Holy Councel for defence of your Sacramentarie Doctrine ? And here , who be more basely affectioned and bent towarde the thinges set on that Table , ye , that make them but Breade , and Wine , or wee , that , after Consecration , beleue vnder the formes of Breade , and Wine verily to be made Presente the Body , and Bloude of Christe ? Whether is a baser exercise , to feede on ‡ ‡ Vntruth ▪ vile , and s●lau●●●rous : Wee ee●e not vpon ●ommon Brea●● , and Wine : Wee fe●de vpon the Very Body , and Bloud of Christ . common Breade , and Wine , and to dwel in the iudgement of the senses , or to eate the very Fleashe of Christe , the Breade of Life , that came downe from Heauen , to immortalitie of the Body , and Soule , to forsake the senses , and folowethe vnderstandinge of * * Your Faith , without Goddes Woord , is no Faithe . Taithe ? Wel we agree with you , not to be ouer basely intent to the Breade , and Cuppe . But why do not ye performe that , as foloweth there after your owne allegation out of that Councel ? Why do ye not with those . 318. Holy Fathers , and with the whole Churche of Christe vnderstande by Faithe on that Holy Table to be laide the Lambe of God , that taketh awaie the Sinnes of the Worlde ? Why do ye not recante your wicked Doctrine againste the blessed Sacrifice of the Masse ? Reade the whole sentence , ioyninge the ende to the beginninge . Saie not al those Holy and Learned Fathers , the Lambe of God on this sacred Table ( thei meane the Aulter ) to be Sacrificed of the Priestes vnbloudely ?

Againe why bringe ye the Christen people from the Body of Christe whereby they are redemed , to a ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For wee t●ache ●either bare Bread , nor bare Figure : Reade the Answeare . bare piece of Breade , Al Tropes and Figures of the Sacramentaries be excluded by Verdite of the Nicene Councel . teachinge it to be * * Vntruthe . For the Learned Doctours , and Fathers vsed commonly the same Tropes , and Figures . but the Figure of his Body ? Saieth not this Councel , that wee receiue the Precious Body , and Bloude of our Lorde ‡ ‡ Wee receiue Christe Verily , and in dee●e : although neither Fleashely , nor with bodily mouthe . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , verily , and in deede , * * Vntruthe . For the Learned Doctours , and Fathers vsed commonly the same Tropes , and Figures . whereby in dede al your tropes , and Figures be quite excluded ? Againe if these were but Breade , and Wine , as ye teache , woulde the Councel saie , that we take them not to sacietie , but to Sanctimonie and Holynes ? What Holynes can we haue of Breade , and Wine ? What , Holynes obteine● we not by eatinge of the Body of Christe , beinge the proper Body of the Worde , or God the Wordes owne Body , that hathe Power to viuificate , and quicken al thinges ? Thus we come within you , Defenders , as it were , and claspinge with you , wringe your ‡ ‡ O braue Captaine . weapon out of your handes , and with the tother end of it stricke you downe . As it is not harde to vs by learninge to ouerthrowe you , so we beseche God to strike down the pride , Act. 9. and stubbernes of your hartes , as he did Paule , wherewith ye resiste the manifeste Truthe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée allege this place , although briefely , yet simply , and truely , and without any manner fraude , or guile . But if roundinge , and clippinge of the Holy Fathers be the marke of an Heretique , as it is here auouched , then haue wée one marke more , whereby to knowe M. Hardinge . For this is his ordinarie vsage , and practise of course .

Touchinge either the Beginninge , or the Ende of this Decrée , there is no cause , wherefore any Woorde therein written shoulde of out parte be dissembled . The Holy Fathers in that Councel teache vs , vtterly to withdrawe our eie● from the Breade , and Wine , beinge nothing els , but Creatures transitorie , and corruptible : and by Faithe to beholde the Very Body of Christe , whiche is Represented in the Mysteries . To like pourpose S. Augustine saithe , as it is alleged before , Ea demùm est Miserabilis animae Seruitus , The Lambe laide vpon the Table . Signa pro Rebus accipere : August . De Doctrina Christiana , Lib. 3. Cap. 5. & supra Creaturam Corpoream oculum Mentis ad hautiendum Aeternum Lumen leuare non posse : This is the Miserable Bondage of the Soule , to take the Signes in steede of the thinges , that be Signified : and not to be hable to lifte vp the eie of the Minde , aboue the Corporal Creature , to receiue the Light Euerlastinge . And therefore immediately before the Holy Ministration , the Prieste saith vnto vs , as it is saide before , Lifte vp your Hartes . In this sorte the same Fathers speake of the Water of Baptisme : Concil. Nicen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Baptisma nostrum Oculis Sensibilibus spectandum non est , sed oculis Intellectus . Vides Aquam ? Cogita Vim , & potestatem Dei , quae in Aquis latet : Our Baptisme maie not be considered with the Sensible , or Bodily Eies , but with the Inner Eies of the Minde . Seeste thou the Water ? Thinke of the Might , and Power of God , that lieth Hidden in the Water . Thus , as in the One Sacramente they withdrawe vs from the Water , euen so in the Other Sacramente they withdrawe vs from the Breade .

But it foloweth in the same Decrée , Let vs by Faithe vnderstande , on that Holy Table to be laide the Lambe of God , that taketh awaie the Sinnes of the World . If the Auncient Fathers , to the end to sturre vp , and to enflame the Hartes of the people , had not sommetimes vsed vehemente phrases , and extraordinarie kindes of Speache , M. Hardinge might many times spare his penne , and keepe silence . But he dooth the Fathers greate wronge , that presseth onely theire ●are woordes , & dissembleth their meaninge . Gregorie Nyssene S. Basiles Brother discréetely , and learnedly openeth this whole mater . Thus he writeth : Gregor. Nyssen . De Anima , Ca. 11 Cùm in habitudine loci alicuius , vel negorij in loco existentis , intelligibilium aliquod extiterit , Abusiuè id ibi esse dicimus , propter operationem eius , quae ibi est , locum pro habitudine , & operatione accipientes . Cùm enim dicere deberemus , Ibi Operatur , dicimus , Ibi est : When any Spiritual thing is in the consideration of somme place , or els in consideration of somme mater being in a place , Wee saie , the same Spiritual thing is there , by an Abuse , or by an Extraordinarie vse of speache : bicause of the effecte of that Spiritual thinge , that there is wrought : taking the place in steede of Consideration , of Workinge in the Place . For , where wee should saie , There it Woorketh , thus wee saie , There it is . Euen so , where as these Fathers should haue saide , The Effectes , or Graces , that wée haue by Christes Body , are laid before vs vpon the Table , by Abuse of Speache they saie , the Body of Christe is laid vpon the Table . De Conse . Dist. 2. Species . Likewise saith Gratiam . Quidam non improbabiliter exponunt , Carnis , & Sanguinis Veritatem , Ipsam ●orundem efficientiam , hoc est , Remissionem Peccatorum : Somme menne not without good reason , by the Truthe of Christes Fleashe , and Bloude , vnderstande the Effecte , or woorkinge of the same , that is to saie , the Remission of Sinnes .

And as these Fathers saie , Christe is Laid vpon the Table , euen so , by like phrase of speache , De Conse . Dist. 2. Quid sit . S. Gregorie saith , Christe is killed vpon the Table : Christus iterum in hoc Mysterio moritur : Eius Caro in populi salutem patitur : Christe dieth againe in this Mysterie : His Fleashe suffereth for the Saluation of the people . So saith Chrysostome , Vt in Coelo coelatur Deus , Chrys in Matth. Homil. 4. sic in Scripturis absconditur . Non omnes intelligunt Deum Veritatis , positum in Scripturis : As God is couered in Heauen , so is he couered in the Scriptures . Al menne vnderstande not God , that is laide in the Scriptures . So saithe Athanasius , Athanas . De Interpreta . Psalm. Hieronym . De Vita Eremitica . Hieronym . ad Gaudentium . Est etiam in Verbis Scripturarum Dominus : Our Lorde is in the Woordes of the Scriptures . So saithe S. Hierome , Supra nudam metuis humum ex esa ieiunijs membra collidere . Sed Dominus tecum iacet : Thou arte a fraide to laie thy body , worne out with fasting , vpon the bare ground . Yet the Lord lieth with thee . Againe , Nudus , atque esuriens ante fores nostras Christus in paupere moritur : Christe naked , and hungrie , lieinge before our gate , dieth in the poore .

And , to leaue other like saieinges , and sentences of the Ancient Fathers , Pope Adrian saithe in your late Councel of Nice , The Lambe laide vpon the Table . In Scripturis Sanctarum imaginum Agnus Praecursoris digito ostensus depingitur : De Con. Dist 3. Sextam Sanctam . In the Scriptures of the Holy Images , is painted the Lambe of God , that John Baptiste shewed with his finger .

These saieinges muste be qualified with a gentle Exposition : and maie not be rackte extréemely to the sounde , and rigour of the Letter . Chrysostome thus expoundeth these woordes of S. Paule to the Galathians : Chrysost. in Epist. ad Gala. Cap. 3. Quibus Christus ante Oculos priùs depictus erat , in vobis Crucifixus . Atqui Christus non apud Galathas , sed Hierosolymis fuit Crucifixus . Quomodo igitur dicit , in vobis ? Vt ostendat vim Fidei , quae potest etiam procul dissita cernere : indicans , quòd illi oculis Fidei , exactiùs cernerent , quàm nonnulli , qui praesentes adfuerant , eaque , quae gerebantur , conspexerant : Vnto whome Christe was painted out , and Crucified emonge you before your Eies . Yet was not Christe Crucified in Galathia , but at Hierusalem . How then saithe S. Paule vnto the Galathians , Christe was Crucified emongst you ? His meaninge was , to shewe the strengthe of Faithe , whiche is hable to see thinges , though thei be far awaie : and that they by the Eies of Faithe sawe the Deathe of Christe more plainely , and perfitely , then many , that were presente at his Deathe , and sawe those thinges that were donne .

Thus the Fathers in this Councel saide , Christes Body is Laide foorthe vpon the Communion Table , that is , not vnto our bodily Eies , or senses , but vnto the eies of our Faithe : I meane , by waie of a Mysterie , or Sacramente : but not verily , or in déede . In this sense S. Augustine saithe vnto the people , Vos estis in Mensa : De Con. Dist. 2. Quia passus . Vos estis in Calice : You are laide vpon the Table : you are in the Cuppe . As the people is laide vpon the Table , so is Christes Body laide vpon the Table : And as the People is in the Cuppe , so is Christes Bloude in the Cuppe . The people is there by waie of a Mysterie : euen so is Christes Body and Bloude there by waie of a Mysterie , and none otherwise . Thus M. Hardinge , wée withdrawe not the people of God , as ye vntruely saie , from Christes Body to a péece of Breade : But rather wée leade them , as the Ancient Fathers euer did , from the Creature of Breade , to the Beholdinge , Receiuinge , and Eatinge of Christes very Body , and Bloude .

In what sorte , and sense Christe is nowe Vnbloudily Sacrificed by the Prieste , for shortnesse sake , Arti. 17. Diui. 14 gentle Reader , I muste referre thée vnto my Former Replie to M. Hardinge .

How the Holy Mysteries be pledges of our Resurrection , it hath partely bene saide before , and partely shal be saide hereafter more at large .

How wée maie receiue the Body of Christe in deede , and verily , without either Transubstantiation , or Real Presence , I haue bothe touched before in this Treatie , and also in my Former Replie . Artic. 4. Diui. 8. Certainely S. Augustine saithe , The Receiuinge of Christes Body in deede , and the Receiuinge of the Sacramente , are sundrie thinges . Thus he writeth , Ostendit Christus , quid sit , non Sacramentotenus , sed re vera Corpus Christi Manducare , August . De Ciuit . Li. 21. Ca. 21. & eius Sanguinem Bibere : Christe sheweth , what it is , to Eate his Body , and to Drinke his Bloude , not by waie of Sacramente , but verily , and in deede . For the Eatinge of the Sacramente with Mouthe , and Toothe , is not the very True Eatinge of Christes Body : but a token , or Mysterie of the same . S. Augustine saithe , Qui Manducat Intus , non Foris : qui Manducat in Corde , Augustin . in Iohan . Tractat. 26. non qui premit Dente : He that Eateth Within , not he that Eateth Without : He that Eateth ( Christes Body ) in his Harte , not he that bruseth ( the Sacramente ) with his Toothe . Who so by Faithe receiueth the Body of Christe , receiueth it Substantially , Really , Verily , and in déede : and dwelleth in Christe , and Christe in him . Thus is Christes Body receiued , as these Holy Fathers saie , not to the fillinge , or contentation of the Body , but vnto the Holinesse , and Sanctification of the minde .

Thus ye comme within vs , M. Hardinge , as ye saie : and clospe with vs : and ouerthrow vs by Learninge : and wringe our weapon out of our handes : and with the other ende thereof ye strike vs downe . Thraso in Lunucho . Me thinketh , I heare one saie , Denique metuebant Omnes iam me : If some Gnato stoode by you , I trowe , wee shoulde haue a prety plaie . But vnsensible menne are wée , that feele none of these deadly blowes . I wil answeare you , as S. Augustine sometime answeared Pascentius the Arian Heretique , Facile est , vt quisque Augustinum vincat : August . ad Pascent . Epist. 174. videris , vtrùm Veritate , an Clamore : It is an easy mater to ouercome Augustine : But see you whether it be by Truthe , or by noise of woordes . And againe , Non bonum Homini est Hominem vincere : Sed bonum est homini , vt cum Veritas vincat volentem : quia malum est Homini , vt eum Veritas vincat muitum . Nam ipsa vincat necesse est , fiue negantem , siue confitentem : It is not good for a man , to conquere a man : but it is good for a man , that the Truthe maie conquere him with his good wil . For it is il for a man , that the Truthe shoulde conquere him againste his wil. But whether he wil , or wil not , the Truthe muste needes Conquere him .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 5.

And , as Chrysostome very aptely writeth , wee saie , that the Body of Christe is the Deade Carkesse , and wee our selues muste be the Egles : meaninge thereby , that wee muste flie on highe , if wee wil come to the Body of Christe . For this Table , as Chrysostome saithe , is a Table of Egles , and not of Iaies . Cyprian also : This Breade , saithe he , is the foode of the Soule , and not the meate of the Belly .

M. Hardinge .

In deede Chrysostome saithe , as ye reporte But Sirs , what meane ye ? To Eate the Body of Christe , whiche is the dead Carcas , in respecte of his deathe ( for onlesse he had fallen , we had not risen againe ) muste we so be Egles , as we vse no office of mans Body to this kinde of Eatinge ? Muste wee flie so hie , as we looke not to finde this Body in Earthe ? Can wee not Eate this Body , excepte wee flie vp to Heauen ? In. 1. Corin. Cap. 10. H●mil. 24. Can we not come by it , but there ? Can we not Eate him , but there ? Yes forsoothe . * * O Earthly Diuinitie : Then haue you litle to doo in Heauen . Wee neede not goe out of the Earthe for the matter . For Chrysostome him selfe in the same Homilie . from whence ye fetche this , What Egles muste wee be , and howe hie muste wee flie to come to the Eatinge of Christes Body . saithe , that whiles wee be in this life , this Mysterie is cause , that the ‡ ‡ Not by pullinge Christe downe to vs : but by liftinge vp our Hartes to him . Earthe to vs is become Heauen . He that desireth to knowe , what Egles we muste be , and how hie wee muste flie to come to the Eatinge of this Body woorthely , let Chrysostome euen there expounde Chrysostome . He nameth Egles ( saithe he ) to shewe , that he muste get him vp on highe , that commeth to this Body , and that he must haue nothinge to doo with the Earthe , neither be drawen downewarde to base thinges , and creape , but alwaies flie vpwarde , and beholde the Sunne of rightuousnesse , &c. Will ye yet heare him more plainely declare , what he meaneth by this highe Egles flight ? Wipe awaie ( saithe he ) all filthe from thy Soule , prepare thy minde to receiue these Mysteries . If the Kinges Childe arraied in purple and Diademe were deliuered vnto thee to beare , wouldest thou not caste downe on the grounde all that thou holdest , What is meante by the hie Egles Flight . Chrysostome acknowlegeth Christes very Body Presente in the Sacrament . and receiue him ? But nowe , when thou receiuest not the Kinges Childe , * * With thy Faithe , not with thy Mouthe . but the onely begotten Sonne of God , tell me , I praie thee , arte not afraide ? And doest not caste awaie all loue of worldly thinges , and garnishe thy selfe with him onely , but doest thou yet looke downe on the Earthe , arte thou yet in loue of thy money ? arte thou yet geuen to the Earthe ? If it be so , what forgeuenesse , what excuse shalte thou finde ? This spirituall flyinge vp requireth Chrysostome : and yet in that Homilie he declareth ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Chrysostome speaketh onely of the Presence of Grace : of this grosse & fleashly Presence , he saithe nothinge . the Body of Christe to be presente here in Earthe , meaninge in this Holy Sacramente , yea that very Body , whiche was Nayled , Beaten , whiche was not ouercome by Deathe , whiche the Sonne seinge Crucified , tourned awaie his beames , for whiche the vaile of the Temple was rente asunder , stones and all the Earthe quaked , the Body that was made all Bloudy , To Receiue , or Beare Christe . and beinge thruste in with a speare , powred foorthe Fountaines of Bloude and Water to all the worlde healthfull . Thus ye see , howe farre Chrysostome is from your strange Doctri●e , concerninge the very and * * Vntruthe . For Chrysostome not once nameth Real Presence . Reade the Answeare . Reall presence of Christes Body in the Sacramente of the Aulter . Of whiche Aulter , and of the Sacrifice of that Body made and offered by the Priestes , and of the Adoration due thereto , in that Homilie he speaketh moste plainely : That to proue your purpose , yee muste seeke for an other Homilie , whiche ye are neuer like to finde : for Chrysostome serueth not your turne . As neither Cyprian , whome ye alleage , and against whome , God knoweth . Verely we confesse with Holy Cyprian , Cyprian al●●aged by the Defen●●●● to no ●●●pole . and the Fathers of the Nicene Councell , that the Body of Christe , whiche we receiue in the blessed Sacrament , is the foode of the Soule , and not common meate to fille the panche . And therefore of the outwarde Formes we take but litle , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the Nicene Cosicel maketh no mention of any sutch Fourmes . And , beinge but idle Fourmes , and Shewes , howe are they ● Spiritual foode , or howe can they serue to make you Holy : according to the Nicene Decree , acknowledginge , that spiritual foode to serue to Sanctimonie , not to Sacietie . Lastely ye bringe for you S. Augustine in these woordes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here M. Hardinge casteth his colours , to shadowe that thinge , that wil not be hidde . Whereas Chrysostome saithe , Thou receiuest not the Kinges childe , but the onely begotten Sonne of God , he so racketh , and presseth these woordes , as if the Fathers in their writinges had neuer vsed any kinde of Figure : and as if wee were bounde vnder paine of damnation , to receiue what sentence so euer they haue spoken , accordinge to the very rigoure , and extremitie of the Letter .

But the better to disclose the sensible grossenesse of this erroure , I truste , Gentle Reader , it shal not be neither paineful , nor vnprofitable for thée , to consider a fewe other sutche examples , and phrases of speache , commonly , and familiarely vsed by the Catholique Learned Fathers to like purpose . Therefore , as Chrysostome saithe , wee receiue in the Holy Mysteries the Onely begotten Sonne of God , meaninge by Faithe Onely , not by Mouthe , euen so he writeth of the Sacramente of Baptisme , Chrysost. in Epist. ad Colossen . Homil. 10. Si quis tibi Purpuram , aut Diadema dedisset , nonne prae quouis auro accepisses ? Ego verò tibi non Ornatum Regium tribuam , sed ipsum Regem induendum exhibeo . Et quomodò , inquies , Christum poterit quis induere ? Audi , quid Paulus dicat : Quotquot in Christum Baptizati estis , Christum industis : If any man had geeuen thee a Princely Robe , or a Crowne , wouldest thou not set more by it , then by any Gold ? But I wil geeue thee , not a Princely Robe , but the Prince him selfe , to put vpon thee . Thou wilte saie , howe maie a man put on Christe vpon him ? Heare , what S. Paule saithe : As many of you , as are Baptized in Christe , haue put on Christe . S. Cyril saithe , Discant omnes , Cyrill in Iohan. LIb. 2. Cap. 36. ne , antequam firmiores sint Catechumeni , Christum eis , antequam oporteat , Baptismi Mysterio commendent● : Let al menne take heede , that thei deliuer not Christe , in the Sacrament of Baptisme , vnto the Beginners , or Nouices , before they be stronge in the Faithe , and before it be conuenient .

S. Augustine saithe , August . in Apocalyp . Homil. 11. Chrysost. De Sacerdot . Lib. 3. Sancti Christum accipiunt in Manu , & in Fronte : Holy menne receiue Christe bothe in their Hande , and in their Foreheade . S. Chrysostome saithe , Adest Sacerdos , non Ignem gestans , sed Spiritum Sanctum : The Prieste is present , Bearinge , not Fire , but the Holy Ghoste .

S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . De Iosepho Patriarcha . Portant in Typo Christi munera : portaturi in Euangelio munerum Largitorem : They carrie Christes giftes in a Figure : In the Gospel they shal carrie ( Christe him selfe ) the geuer of the giftes . And againe , Mortem non timebis , si geras Christum : Ambros . De Puga Saeculi , Ca. 9. Athan. Oration . Prima Contra Arianos . Thou shalt not feare Deathe , if thou beare Christe .

Athanasius saithe , Apud nos seruatur Puerulus ille , quem Herodes interficere saiagebat : The same Childe is keapte emongest vs , whome Herode laboured so earnestly to destroie . S. Chrysostome saithe , Ciedo Apostolo Paulo , Christum in se loquentem circum ferenti : I beleeue the Apostle P●ule , carrieinge Christe aboute speakinge within him . Chrysostom . in . 2. Timoth. homi . 2.

S. Augustine saithe , Concionatores tradunt Christum Discentibus : The Preachers deliuer Christe vnto their Learners . To Receiue , or Beare Christe . S. Cyril saithe , Verum Manna Christus erat : qui per Figuram Mannae Priscis illis à Deo dabatur : Christe was the very True Manna : August . De Doctrina Christiana , Lib. 4. Ca. 16. Cyrillus , in Euang. Iohan Lib. 3. Cap. 34. Historia Longobardica , Legenda . 59. whome vnder the Figure of Manna God gaue vnto the Fathers of the Olde Testamente . It is written in M. Hardinges owne Legende , Christophorus portauit Christum in Humeris , & in Ore per Confessionem : Christopher bare Christe on his shoulders : and he bare Christe in his Mouthe by his Confession .

An other of his Doctours saithe , Christus venditus fuit in Iosepho : Ligatus in Sampsono : Suspensus in Botro , & in Serpente Aeneo : Crucifixus in Isaaco : Christe was solde in Iosephe : He was bounde in Sampson : He was Hanged vp in the Cluster of Grapes , and in the Brasen Serpente : and he was Crucified in Isaac .

Chrysostome saithe , Fortalitium Fidei , Lib. 1. Quocunque quis peruenerit , Paulum videbit vbique in omnium Ore circumferri : Whither so euer a man comme , he shal see Paule carried aboute euery where , Chrysostom . ad Populam Antiochen . Homil. 16. in the Mouthe of euery man . And to ende this longe rehearsal , S. Augustine saithe , Detractor Diabolum portat in Lingua : The Sclaunderer carrieth the Diuel vpon his tongue .

I doubte not , August . De Salutaribus Documentis . Cap. 26. but M. Hardinge wil better bethinke him selfe , and not require vs , to take al these saieinges , without any manner of fauourable exposition , barely , and nakedly , as they lie . Otherwise he muste néedes encombre him selfe with a greate number of inconueniences .

Of these phrases , and manners of speache , S. Augustine géeueth his iudgemente in this sorte : August . De Ciuitate Dei , Lib. 18. Cap. 48. Omnia Significantia videntur quodammodò earum rerum , quas Significant , sustinere personas : Al Signes , or Tokens seeme in a manner to beare the personnes of the thinges them selfe , that thei Signifie . As for example he saithe , Sicut dictum est ab Apostolo , Petra erat Christus : quoniam Petra illa , de qua hoc dictum est , Significabat Christum : So the Apostle saithe , The Rocke was Christe : For that the Rocke , whereof it was spoken , Signified Christe .

Likewise Athanasius saithe , Athana . Oratio . Contra Sabellij Gregales . Qui Regis Imaginem videt , Regem videt : & dicit , En tibi Regem . Neque tamen duos Reges constituit : neque Imaginem particulam esse Regis , neque Regem particulam Imaginis esse iudicat : He , that seeth the Image of a Kinge , seeth the Kinge : and saithe , Beholde , there is the Kinge . And yet ( so saieinge ) he maketh not twoo Kinges : Nor thinketh he , either that the Image is a parcel of the Kinge , or that the Kinge is parcel of the Image .

S. Gregorie in plainer wise saithe thus , Gregor. in Iob. Lib. 29. Cap. 16. Eundem Agnum Iohannes ostendendo , Esaias praeuidendo , Abel offerndo loquutus est . Et quem Iohannes in ostensione , quem Esaias in loquutione , Hunc Abel Significando in Manibus tenuit : Iohn the Baptiste by pointinge with his finger , Esaias by foreseeinge , Abel by offeringe , spake al three of One Lambe . And Abel by Singnifieinge , helde the same Christe in his handes , whom Iohn helde by pointinge , and whom Esaias helde by Prophesieinge . Gregor. in . 1. Regum , Ca. 2. Li. 2. Againe he saithe , Intus ad Christum respicit , quem per considerationem portat in Corde : In wardely he beholdeth Christe , whom by Meditation he Beareth in his Harte .

Sutche Amplifications , and vehemente , and extraordinarie speaches , notwithstandinge in some cases they maie be dangerous , yet oftentimes they seeme necessarie , the better to quicken the dulnesse , and negligence of the people . And therefore Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. De Sacerdot . Lib. 3. Beholde , The Lambe of God is slaine : The Bloude euen nowe is drawen from his side : and the whole people is coloured , and made ridde and Bloudy with the same : Not for that it was so in deede : but to lifte vp , and to withdrawe the Hartes of the people , from the outwarde Corruptible Creatures of the Breade , and Wine , to a Spiritual , and Mystical vnderstandinge , that is to saie , to the Eatinge , and Drinkinge of the very Body , and Bloude of Christe . And to that ende he saithe , Aquilas appellat , vt ostendat , ad alta eum oportere contendere , qui ad hoc Corpus accedit : He calleth vs Egles , to shewe , that he muste mounte on highe , and flee alofte , who so wil approche neare to that Body . Likewise he saithe , Chrysost. in . 1. Corin . Homil. 24. Chrysost. Ad Popul . Antiochen . Homil. 61. Hieronym . ad Hedibiam . August . Quaest. Euangelicar . Lib. 1. Cap. 42. In Coelum , vocat nos , ad Magni Regis Mensam : Christe calleth vs vp into Heauen , vnto the Table of the greate Kinge . And againe , illum Sursum sedentem hic degustamus : Wee beinge here beneath , taste him sittinge in Heauen aboue . So saithe S. Hierome , Ascendamus cum Domino in Coenaculum Magnum , stratum , atque mundatum : & accipiamus ab eo Sursum Calicem Noui Testamenti : Let vs Ascende vp with our Lorde into that great Dininge Chamber adourned , and made cleane : and there aboue let vs receiue of him the Cuppe of the Newe Testamente .

So saithe S. Augustine , Vbi fuerit Corpus , illuc Congregabuntur Aquilae , id est , in Coelum : Illuc Congregabuntur Aquilae : dictum est de Spiritualibus , qui eius Passionem , Humilitatemque imitando , tanquam de eius Corpore saturantur : Where as the Carkesse shal be , thither shal the Egles resorte togeather : that is to saie , Into Heauen : Thither shal the Egles resorte togeather : This is spoken of the Spiritual Faitheful menne , that folowinge his Passion , and Humilitie , be filled , as it were , with his Body .

So saithe Leo , De Con. Dist. 2 In quibus . Circa hoc Corpus Aquilae sunt , quae alis circumuolant Spiritualibus : Aboute this Body there are Egles , that flee aboute with Spiritual whinges .

Thus are the Faitheful made Egles : Thus is the Earthe become Heauen : Not for that Christes Body is pulled downe , as M. Hardinge imagineth , but for that our mindes , & affections be lifted vp . For so Chrysostome him selfe expoundeth his owne meaninge : Chrysost. in Homil. De Pentecoste . Hodiè nobis Terra facta est Coelum , non stellis de Coelo in Terram descendentibus , sed Apostolis ad Coelum Ascendentibus . Quia effusa est Copiosa Gratia Spiritus Sancti , & vniuersum Orbem operata est Coelum : non immutans Naturam , sed voluntatem emendans : This daie the Earthe is made Heauen : not by the Starres comminge downe vpon the Earthe : but by the goeinge vp of the Apostles into Heauen . For the abundante Grace of the Holy Ghoste is powred out , and hath turned the whole Worlde into Heauen : not by changinge of Nature , but by correctinge the wil of Man . Chrysost. Ad Hebraeos , Homil. 16. Likewise againe he saithe , Apostoli in Terra constituti , in Coelo conuersabantur . Et quid dico , in Coelo ? Altiores erant Coelo : etiam al●o Coelo : Et ad ipsum Dominum peruenerunt : The Apostles dwellinge in the Earthe , had their conuersation in Heauen . But what saie I , In Heauen ? They were higher then Heauen : yea then the Seconde Heauen : and came euen vnto the Lorde him selfe . Againe he saithe , Chrysost. De Foenit●n . Homil. 6. Chrysost. in 1. Corinth . Homil. 24. Dauid Terram in Coelum vertit : & Homines facit Angelos : Dauid turneth the Earthe into Heauen : and of Menne he maketh Angels . Againe he saithe in this selfe same place by M. Hardinge alleged ; Vt Terra nobis Coelum sit , facit hoc Mysterium . Ascende igitur ad Coeli Portas , & diligenter attende : Imò non Coeli , sed Coeli Coelorum : & tunc , quod dicimus , intueberis : This Mysterie couseth , that vnto vs the Earthe is Heauen . Ascende vp therefore vnto the Gates of Heauen : and marke diligently . Naie , I saie not , Vnto the Gates of Heauen : but , Vnto the Gates of the Heauen of Heauens . And so shalt thou see the thinges , that I tel thee .

Nowe iudge thou , good Christian Reader , how true it is , and howe agréeable with S. Chrysostomes Doctrine , that M. Hardinge saithe , Muste wee flee so highe , that we looke not to finde this Body in Earthe ? Can wee not Eate this Body , excepte wee flee vp into Heauen ? Can wee not comme by it , but there ? Can wee not Eate him , but there ? Yes forsoothe : Wee neede not goe out of the Earthe for the mater .

Verily , Chrysostome , when he saithe , Wée receiue the Sonne of God , maketh mention , neither of Transubstantiation , nor of Real , and Fleashely Presence , nor of Eatinge with Mouthe , or Teethe : But onely sendeth vs to the force , and woorkinge of Faithe , To touch , to Holde Christe . and Sprite : whereby onely , and by no waie els , wée receiue and Eate in déede , and Verily the Body of Christe .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 6.

And S. Augustine saithe , How shal I holde him , beinge Absent ? Howe shal I reache my hande vp to Heauen , In Iohan. Tracta. 50. to laie holde vpon him sittinge there ? He answeareth , Reache thither thy Faithe , and then thou haste laide holde on him .

M. Hardinge .

Vpon these woordes of S. Iohn , Iohan. 1● . The Bishoppes and Phariseis gaue Commaundement , that if any knewe , where Iesus were , he shoulde shewe it , that they mighte apprehende him , S. Augustine expoundinge the same , in a contrary sense , saithe : Let vs nowe shewe the Iewes , where Christe is : woulde God they woulde heare , S. Augustine speaketh not of receiuinge Christe in the Sacramente , but by Faithe onely . and laie holde on him . Where he speaketh not of receiuinge Christe , so as we receiue him in the Sacramente , * * And by Faithe Onely wee receiue Christe in the Sacramente . but of receiuinge him by Faithe Onely . And there he wisheth and exhorteth the Iewes to come to the Faithe , and teacheth them how they maie profitably laye holde on Christe , whome their Forefathers laide holde on with violent handes to their damnation . Let them come to the Churche ( saithe he ) let them heare , where Christe is , and laie holde on him . After certaine woordes , he maketh this obiection to him selfe : Wel , the Iewe answereth me , howe shal I holde him , that is Absent ? Howe shal I reache vp my hande to Heauen , that I maie laie holde on him , whiche sitteth there ? Reache thither thy Faithe ( saithe Augustine ) and then thou haste laide holde on him . Then foloweth in the same line that , whiche plainely declareth all this to be meante of layinge holde of Christe by Faithe , † † He speaketh not of the receiuinge of the Sacrament : but he speaketh of the receiuinge of the Very Body of Christ : which is wrought onely by Faithe . not by receiuinge the Communion . Parentes tui tenuerunt carne , tu tene corde . Thy Forefathers ( thou Iewe ) tooke holde on Christe in Fleashe : take thou holde on him in thy Harte . There he sheweth howe Christe maye be holden , though concerninge the visible and sensible presence of his Body , he be in Heauen at the Right hande of the Father . All this , and what so euer is saide there , vpon the Texte before recited , implieth not so muche as any colour of argument againste the Truthe of Christes very Body in this moste Blessed Sacramente . And thus all your allegations and reasons concerninge this mater besufficiently answeared .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It is true , that M. Hardinge saithe , S. Augustine in this place speaketh nothinge of purpose and specially of the Sacramente . Certainely it had benne great vanitie for him , to wil his Hearers , to séeke for the Sacramente in Heauen aboue . But he speaketh of the embracinge , and holdinge the very Body of Christe , beinge nowe in Heauen . Whiche thinge is wrought onely by Faithe , and none otherwise : Whether it be in the Sacramente , or without the Sacramente . Infinite sentences haue benne vttered by the Holy Fathers to like purpose .

S. August . Aduersus Iudaeos . ca. 9. Augustine saithe , Accedite ad eum , & illuminamini : Quid est , Accedite , nisi , Credite ? Comme vnto him , and receiue the Light : What is , Comme vnto him , but , Beleeue in him ? Againe , Ambulando non laborabitis : Ibi enim Acceditis , vbi Creditis : Your walkinge shal not be paineful to you : For there ye Comme to him , where ye Beleeue in him . Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 48 Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 121. August . De Natura & Gra. Ca 69. Againe he saithe , Exijt de Manibus eorum : Non enim apprehendere eum potuerunt , quia Manus Fidei non habuerunt : Christe departed out of their handes . For they coulde not laie holde on him , bicause they had not the Handes of Faithe . Againe , Christus non rectè tangitur : id est , non rectè in eum Creditur : Christe is not wel touched : that is to saie , Christe is not wel Beleeued . Likewise againe he saith , Sunt in Corde Spirituales Manus : There be certaine Spiritual Handes in the Harte . And therefore S. Ambrose saithe , Stephanus in Terris positus , Christum tangit in Coelo : Ambrosius Sermone . 98. Steuin beinge in the Earthe , ( by Faithe ) toucheth Christe beinge in Heauen .

But as S. Faithe receiueth , &c. Augustine so often saithe , wée Embrace , & Holde Christe by Faithe : so is not M. Hardinge able to shewe , that he euer once saide , Wée Holde Christe with Mouthe , or Teethe , or receiue him downe into Our Bellies . And therefore S. Ambrosius in Lucam . Lib. 10. Cap. 24. Ambrose saithe , Non Corporali tactu Christum , sed Fide Tangimus : Wee touche not Christe by Bodily touchinge : but wee touche him by Faithe . And againe , Fide Christus Tangitur : Fide Christus videtur . Non Corpore Tangitur : non Oculis comprehenditur : Ambrosius in Lucam , Lib. 6. Cap. 8. By Faithe Christe is touched : By Faithe Christe is seene . He is not touched with our Bodies : He is not holden with our Eies . Likewise S. Augustine saithe , Dominus consolatur nos , qui ipsum iam in Coelo sedentem Manu contrectare non possumus : August . in Epist. Iohan. Tracta. 1. Sed Fide contingere ( possumus ) . The Lorde Comforteth vs , that cannot nowe Touche him with Hande , sittinge in Heauen : 〈◊〉 by Faithe wee maie touche him .

Nowe , for as mutche as M. Hardinge saithe , S. Augustine in this place maketh no mention of the receiuinge of Christes Body in the Sacramente , it shal not be from the purpose to consider , what he hath written otherwheres , touchinge the same . Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 7. Thus he saithe , Christus est Cibus noster , quo nihil dulcius : Sed si quis habeat Palatum sanum in Corde : Christe him selfe is oure Meate , then whiche there is nothinge more sauerie : so that a man haue a sounde taste in his Harte . Againe he saithe , Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 26. Dominus dixit se Panem , qui de Coelo descendit , hortans vt Credamus in eum . Credere enim in eum , hoc est Manducare Panem viuum . Qui Credit in eum , Manducat : Inuisibiliter Saginatur , quia Inuisibiliter renascitur . Infans Intus est : Nouus Intus est : vbi nouellatur , ibi satiatur : Our Lorde called him selfe the Breade , that came from Heauen , exhortinge vs to Beleue in him . For to Beleue in him , that is to Eate the Breade of Life . He Eateth , that Beleeueth in him . He is fedde Inuisibly , bicause he is newe borne Inuisibly . In wardely he is an Infante : Inwardely he is Newe . Where he is renewed , there is he filled .

So saithe Eusebius Emissenus , De Con. Dist. 2. Quia Corpus . as he is alleged by Gratian : Cùm ad Reuerendum Altare Coelestibus Cibis satiandus accedis , Sacrum Dei tui Corpus , & Sanguinem respice , Honora , Mirare : Mente Continge : Cordis Manu Suscipe : & maximè haustu Interiori assume : When thou commest vnto the Reuerende Aultare , ( or Communion Table ) to be Fedde with the Heauenly Meates , beholde the Holy Body , and Bloude of thy God : Honoure it : Woonder at it : Touche it ( not with thy Bodily Mouthe , but ) with thy Minde : Receiue it ( not with thy Bodily Hande , but ) with the Hande of thy Harte : and specially take it with thy Inner taste .

Therefore S. August . Feria . 2. Paschatis . Augustine saithe , Quisquis cum Fide , & timore Verbum Dei audis , consolatur te Fractio Panis . Absentia Domini non est Absens . Habeto Fidem : & tecum est , quem non vides . Ideò Dominus absentauit se Corpore ab omni Ecclesia , & Ascendit in Coelum , vt Fides aedificetur : Who so euer thou be , that with Faithe , and Feare hearest the Woorde of God , the Breakinge of Breade doothe Comforte thee . The Absence of our Lorde is not Absente . Haue thou Faithe : and he , whom thou seest not , is with thee : Therefore our Lorde , as touchinge his Body , hath Absented him selfe from al his Churche , and is Ascended into Heauen , that our Faithe maie be edified .

And in this selfe same place , that M. Hardinge saithe , maketh so litle for our purpose , he saithe thus : Quomodo tenebo Absentem ? Quomodo in Coelum manum mittam , Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 50. vt ibi sendentem teneam ? Fidem mitte : & Tenuisti . Parentes tui tenuerunt Carne : Tu tene Corde . Quoniam Christus Absens , etiam praesens est . Nisi Praesens esset , à nobis ipsis teneri non posset . Sed , quoniam verum est , quod ait , Ecce ego vobiscum sum vsque ad Consummationem Saeculi , & abijt , & hîc est : Et redijt , & nos non deseruit . Corpus enim suum intulit Coelo : Maiestatem autem non abstulit Mundo : How shal I holde Christe , beinge Absent ? Howe shal I thruste my hande into Heauen , that I maie holde him Sittinge there ? Sende vp thy Faithe : and thou holdest him . Thy Fathers ( the Iewes ) helde him in Fleashe : Holde him thou in thy Harte . For Christe beinge Absente , is also Presente . Onlesse he were Presente , wee coulde not holde him . But , for as mutche as it is true , that he saithe , Beholde , I am with you vntil the ende of the worlde , Therefore he is gonne , and yet is here . He is comme againe , and hath not forsaken vs . For he hath auanced his Body into Heauen : but he hath not withdrawen his Maiestie from the Worlde .

Al these thinges wel considered , whereas M. Hardinge in the ende concludeth with these woordes : Thus al your Allegations , and Reasons , concerninge this mater , be sufficiently answeared , I doubte not , but his discrete , and indifferent Reader wil thinke , He crewe longe , before it was daie .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 1.

Neither can wee awaie in our Churches with these Shewes , and sales , and markettes of Masses , nor with the carrieinge about , and woorshippinge of the Breade : nor with sutche other Idolatrous , and Blasphemous fondnesse : whiche none of them can proue , that Christe or his Apostles euer ordeined , or leafte vnto vs . And wee iustly blame the Bishoppes of Rome , who without the Woorde of God , without the Authoritie of the Holy Fathers , without any example of Antiquitie , In Ceremoniario Roma . Eccles. after a Newe guise , doo not onely set before the People the Sacramental Breade to be woorshipped as God , but doo also carrie the same aboute vpon an amblinge Palfraie , whither so euer them selues iourney : in sutche sorte , as in olde times the Persians fier , and the Reliques of the Goddesse Isis were solemnely carried aboute in Procession : and haue brought the Sacramentes of Christe to be vsed now as a stage plaie , and a solemne sighte : to the ende , that Mennes eies should be fedde with nothinge els but with madde gasinges , & foolishe gaudes , in the selfe same mater , wherein the Death of Christe ought diligently to be beaten into our Hartes , and wherein also the Mysteries of our Redemption ought with al Holinesse , and reuerence to be executed .

M. Hardinge .

The thinges , whiche it liketh your Sathanical Sprite with blasphemous woordes to * * Vntruthe For wee honour the Holy Mysteries : and you profanely dishonoure them . dishonour , and bringe in contempt , are suche , as neither your praises can make more praise woorthy , nor your vpbraidinges any whit of lesse estimation . If any by the stinkinge breath of your vile woordes be puffed awaie into your damned side , Matth. ● . Luc. 3. A Prieste maye iustly enioy his necessary liuinge for seruinge at th aulter , and for sayinge Masse . We know no Woorshippers of Breade . who so euer they be , they shewe them selues to haue benne light chaffe , not sounde wheate . Yet for good folkes sake , that I maie leaue your vile eloquence to your selues , and answeare the matter by you railed at , and belied , and other wise not disproued : I praie you , good Sirs , the † † Vntruthe . For , as it is nowe vsed , there is no viler dishonour , nor greatter Bla●phemie . Masse beinge the highest and moste Honorable Seruice , that is donne to God in his Churche ( whiche other wheres beinge already proued , I treate not of in this place ) , why should not a Prieste , by whome onely it is , and maie be donne , * * Vntruthe . For Christe neuer called his Disciples , or sente them abroade , to saie Masse . beinge called to that vocation , and state of life , haue rewarde , and liuinge for it ? Raile againste the Masse , and Priestes seruinge at the Aulter of God vntil your tongues burne in your head in Hell Fire : We tell you , Priestes of the Catholike Churche sell † † Alas , they haue it not . Otherwise for moonie it should awaie . not the Fruite and Merite of Christes Bloude offered in the Masse , but onely for their ministerie and labour require necessarie sustenance of Life .

But for your Defence , yee confesse that ye cannot awaie with the carryinge about and woorshippinge of Breade . No more cannot wee . To whose charge laye ye this ? Be there any suche Idolaters nowe , that woorship Breade ? They woulde be knowen . * * God forebid , there shoulde be water in the Sea . God forbid we shoulde suffer Idolaters to liue amongest vs . Soothely in the Catholike Churche wee knowe none . If ye cannot away with the Honour whiche † † Vntruthes , and moste fonde , and blasphemous folies . all deuoute Christen people doo to the † blessed Sacramente , ( wee meane to Christes Body , and Christe him selfe † presente in Substance vnder † the Forme of Breade ) then can not we take you for Christians . Mocke , scoffe , ieste , and raile at vs with the Iewes , we dare not , but Honour our Lorde Christe , where so euer our Faithe findeth him verily and in Substance presente .

If through feruent zeale ( as sometimes it happeneth ) abuses in certaine places haue crepte in , no good Catholike man * * Yet not one of your Catholique Prelates amendeth them . defendeth them . Mary wee knowe all is not to be abrogated that misliketh your corrupte taste . † † Vntruthe , fonde and Heathenishe . For God him selfe saithe , in vaine they woorship mee . &c. And muche is righte Holy Deuotion pleasant in the sighte of God , and therefore allowed in the Churche , whiche your hote sprite calleth Idolatrous , and blasphemous fondnesse . And though the Ceremonie and manner , whereby sutche deuotion is shewed , cannot be prooued by ordinance of Christe or of the Apostles expressed in Scripture , yet Christen people doubte not but God accepteth their good hartes .

The Bishop of Rome ye blame vniustly , I might saie also proudely . For procuringe * * Vntruthes foure together . For he dishonoureth Christe . He hath neither Goddes worde , nor the Authoritie of al the Fathers , nor the examples of Antiquitie . Honour and worship to Christe in the Blessed Sacrament , he hath the * woorde of God , * the authoritie of al Holy Fathers , and the * examples of antiquitie , as † † Note , that in the same one litle Article , M. Hardinge hathe sente vs twelue greate Vntruthes . I haue at large proued in my answeare to your companion Maister Iuel his eight negatiue Article . But the amblinge Horse offendeth you . Why be ye not also offended with the Asse and her fole , that bare the * * Vntruthe . For this is onely the Sacramente of that same Body . same Body at Ierusalem , whiche the Horse beareth at Rome : Then Visible and weightie , nowe Inuisible , and of no weight ? That was donne in Pompe to the honour of Christe , and so is this . Ye saie this is done after a new guise . So then was that . Neither is it true whiche ye saie , that the Bishoppes of Rome doo carrie about with them the Sacramente whither so euer they iourney . † † Doo the M. Hardinge scoffe at these games , or speaketh he in earnest ? Ye might haue learned in that Booke , our of whiche ye alleage that matter to scoffe at , Lib. Ceremoniarum Ecclesiae Ro. Sectione . 12. Ca. 1. Baldachinū . that suche a solemnitie is vsed specially , when the Pope rideth in Pontificalibus . Then ( as the Booke telleth ) a white Palfrey trapped , gentill , and faier , with a cleare soundinge bell hanginge at his necke , is lead , which carrieth the Monstrance , or Pixe with the most Holy Body of Christe , ouer the whiche noble Citizens shal beare a Canopie . Thus the Booke of Ceremonies .

* * Why should a wise man speake so fondely ? Reade the Answeare . And I praie you , what euill is this ? If it be good to carry about that moste holy Body , by whiche as Christe once redeemed vs , so by the same deuotely honoured of faithefull people , and carried abrode and brought to certaine places , hath in olde times ( as yet also dothe continually ) to the greate comforte and helpe of sundry persons beinge in distresse , wrought miraculousely healthfull remedies : If the Israelites founde healpe at Gods hande by † † They did it againste Goddes wil : and spedde thereafter . Read the Answeare . bringinge the Arke into the fielde with them , as they marched forewarde againste the Philistians : 1. Reg. 4. 1. Reg. 5. if the Philistians cried out for feare when they perceiued the Arke to be in the Israelites armie , and saide , Venit Deus in Castra . Vae nobis . God is come into their Tentes . Alas we are vndone , &c.

And concerninge the order of the Ceremonie , whereas * * Graue Considerations . the people be desirous to beholde the Body of their Redeemer with their Faithe by their carnall ete directed to the Forme of Breade , In the order of this Ceremonie nothinge appeareth to a Christen man vnseemely or vnreasonable . no man is able to holde vp on hie the Sacramente , so as conuenient it were to be donne bothe to satisfie their Deuotion , and to mainetaine their Faithe : for the Pope him selfe commonly is an aged man , and therefore ouer weake † † A Horse supplieth the Pope● es●ice . for that Seruice , specially arraied in Pontificalibus , as in suche solemnities he is . Againe the instrument that serueth for that purpose is so greate and weighty ( for so it apperteineth to the honour of Christe , ) the waie so longe , the ayer for the more parte there so hote : as no other man is well able for lacke of strength to beare it so as meete it is to be borne . In this case † why may not a Horse be put to that seruice , to supplie that whiche by naturall weakenesse faileth in man ? Wherein he serueth not , as one that beareth a male , but as the Asse that bare Christe , as the Kine that drewe the Arke .

Neither ought the custome of bearinge the moste Holy Body of Christe , The custome of carryinge the Sacrament , where the Pope goeth , is neither Newe nor Strange . where the Pope goeth , seeme Newe and Strange . For we Reade in the life of the Blessed Martyr Steuen the firste , who was Pope of Rome aboue thirtene hundred yeres past , that Tharsitius the Deacon ( who at length also suffred death for Christe ) bare our Lordes Body , at what time he attended vpon the Blessed Man Pope Steuen , as he went to his Martyrdome . Who desireth to see this described at large , the same maie he finde in ( that Greate fonde Fabulare ) Simeon Metaphrasies a Greeke writer , wel approued , and highly esteemed in the Greeke Churche , In vita Stephani Primi .

For witnesse whereof we haue S. Sale of Masses . Ambrose , who describeth how certaine faithful persons caried * * It was a greate abuse of the Sacramente : and yet without either Pyxe , or Pompe : And therefore was afterwarde vtterly taken awaie throughout the whole Churche of God . this blessed Sacrament with them , In Oratione funebri in Satyrum Fratrem . Innocent . 3. De Mysterijs Missae . Lib. 6. when they wente to the Sea , of whome his Brother Satyrus obteined the same in a Shipwracke , and by helpe thereof , hanginge it in a stole about his necke , seekinge for none other succoure , caste him selfe into the Sea , and miraculously escaped safe to lande . Neither is the same by him done without a speciall Mysterie , though vnknowen to the more parte . Although , saithe a learned Pope , a reason cannot be geuen of al thinges , what so euer haue benne brought in vre by our Forefathers : yet I thinke , quoth he , that therein lie hidden profounde Mysteries .

I reporte me nowe to the secrete consciences of good Christen people , whether the Bishoppes of Rome vse not the Blessed Sacrament reuerently and bonorably or no , This Defender foloweth Iulian , Lucian . Porphyriabus ; , Celsus , and suche other wicked Infidels . but rather † † If yee had not these games from thence , then tel vs , from whence yee had them . as the Persians Fire , and the Reliques of the Goddesse Isis , as a stage Plaie , madde gasinges , and foolishe Gaudes , as it liketh this wicked Chammes broode to raile . Wherein they folowe the sheppes , whiche Iulian the Apostata , Lucian , Porphyrius , Celsus , and sutche other Prophane Helhoundes haue trodden before them . For after the like manner they railed at the Holy Mysieries of Christen Religion , namely Celsus , who as Origen writeth of him , obiected to the Christians the Sacrifices of Mithra , ( whiche was an Idoll that the persians woorshipped , and called by the name of the Sunne ) from whence he saide they had taken all their Sacramentes , Contra Celsum Lib. 6. De Mithra vide Suidam in dictione . Rites , and Ceremonies . And righte so ( as we finde in S. Augustine writinge against the Manichees ) the Payn●mes founde faulte with the Christen people for * * Moste vaine vntruthes . For S. Augustine speaketh neither of Honour , nor of Adoration , nor of Christes Body , nor of Fourmes . Honour donne to the * Body and Bloude of Christe vnder * Formes of Breade and Wine , saitinge that they Honoured Bacchus and Ceres .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Concerninge these Satanical Sprites , & stinkinge breathes , & vile Woordes , & sutche other like flowers of your Eloquence , M. Hardinge , I confesse me selfe to be far inferiour , and neuer hable to make you answeare . It is true , that ye saie , The Woorkeman is woorthy of his hiere . 2 Corinth. 9. S. Paule saith , The Lorde hath appointed , that who so Preacheth the Gospel , shoulde liue by the Gospel . But where did Christe euer saie vnto you , Goe into al the worlde , and saie Priuate Masse , and offer me vp vnto my Father , for Remission of Sinnes ? What Apostle , what Prophete , what Doctour , what Father euer taught you so to doo ? If ye sette your selfe a woorke without Commission , and renne foorthe , when noman biddeth you , then are ye your owne menne : and of reason ought to paie your selues .

If your Masses , as you saie , were neuer sette to open sale , wherefore then was this Decrée written in the Councel of Oxforde , Constitution Othonis Legat inae , Folio . 143. Venalitatem Missarum districtè inhibemus ? Wee streitly forbidde the Sale of Masses . Thinke you , that so many wise Fathers would forebidde that thinge , the neuer was vsed ? In the late Conference holden at Woormes , the Bishop of Sidon , beinge there presente , durste not saie , as you dare saie , there was no sutche vnlawful sale , but onely saide , In Colloquio Wormatien . Con●essis . 5. It was out of season to talke thereof . His woordes be these , Quid attinebat de Missis venalibus , de Mercatu Indulgentiarum , &c. mentionem intempestinam inducere ? What was it to the purpose to speake of the Sellinge of Masses and Pardonnes , out of season ?

The Priestes , ye saie , of the Catholique Churche sel not the fruite , and Merite of Christes Bloude . No marueile : For thei haue it not to sel . But if ye had Christe him selfe , ye would sette him to sale , as other your Fathers haue donne before you . Sutche a one was he , Gregor. Lib. 2. Epist. 33. of whom S. Gregorie writeth , Iesum Christum Dominum nostrum Haeretico , accepta Pecunia , venundedit : He tooke Monie , and solde Iesus Christe our Lorde vnto an Heretique . And , when the Bishop of Rome selleth his Pardonnes , what other thinge woulde he seeme to sel , but onely the Fruites , and Merites of the Bloude of Christe ?

Ye saie further , God forebidde , wee shoulde suffer Idolaters to liue emongest vs . And yet your neare frendes haue thought , ye haue not benne far from the mainteinance of Idolatrie . Vaine Deuotion . Polydorus Vergilius intreatinge of the woorshippinge of Images , saithe thus , Polydor. De Inuentorib . Rer. Lib. 6. Cap. 13. Eo insaniae deuentum est , vt haec pars Pietatis parum differat ab Impietate : They are so far proceded in madnesse , that this parte of Holinesse is not far from wickednesse . And Ludouicus Viues saithe , He seeth no greate difference bitwéene certaine Christians Woorshippinge their Images , and the Olde Heathens adouringe their Idolles .

Ye saie , The Carrieinge aboute of the Sacrament is right Holy deuotion , pleasante in the sight of God : and Christian People doubt not , but God accepteth their good Hartes . Euen so , no doubte , as when he saide sometime vnto the Iewes , Esai . 1. Quis requisiuit ista de manibus vestris ? Who required these thinges at your handes ?

S. August . De Consen . Euangelist . Lib. 1. Cap. 18. August . In quae . ex veteri Testament . quae . 43. Chrysostom . in Acta , Homil. 49. Gabriel . Lect. 26. Augustine saithe , Socratis sententia est , Vnumquenque Deum sic coli oportere , quomodo se ipse colendum esse praeceperit : The Judgement of Socrates is this , That euery God ought so to be woorshipped , as he him selfe hath commaunded . Againe he saithe , Constat , Fidem stultam non solùm minimè prodesse , sed etiam obesse : It is certaine , that a foolishe Faithe , not onely dothe no good , but also hurteth . Chrysostome saith , Tales sunt Diabolo venandi artes : qui praetextu Pietatis laqueos tegit : Sutche sleightes of huntinge hath the Diuel . Vnder the Colour of Holinesse he hideth his snares .

But , as touchinge the solemnitte of carrieinge the Sacrament , your owne Doctour Gabriel Biel coulde haue tolde you , Christus non dedit Discipulis Sacramentum , vt ipsum honorificè conseruarent : sed dedit in sui vsum , dicens , Accipite , & Manducate : Christe gaue not the Socramenté to his Disciples to the ende thei shoulde keepe it with Honour : But he gaue it to them for their vse , saienge to them , Take , and Eate . Likewise saithe Humbertus , Citatur à Cassandro in Liturgijs . Christus non tantùm Benedixit Panem , & reseruauit frangendum in crastinum : nec fregit tantùm , & reposuit : sed fractum statim distribuit : Christe did not onely Blesse the Breade , and reserue it to be broken the nexte daie : nor did he onely Breake it , and laie it vp : but beinge broken streight waie he deliuered it .

Al this strange solemne Festiual guise Pope Vrbanus the fourthe learned , not of Christe , or Paule , but onely by the Reuelation of Dame Eua the Ancharesse : and by her good aduise founded the Newe Feaste of Corpus Christi , and caused the Sacramente to be borne aboute in Procession .

But the Anciente , Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 51. & woorthy Father Chrysostome saithe , Discamus , Christum ex ipsius voluntate honorare : Nam qui honoratur , eo maximè honore laetatur , quem ipse vult : non quem nos optamus : Let vs learne to honour Christe after his owne wil . For he that is honoured , deliteth moste in that honour , that he him selfe woulde haue : not in that honoure , that wee can Fa●sie . Notwithstandinge , when the Sacramental Breade is carried onely vpon a horse , and the Pope him selfe is borne alofte , in a Chaire of Golde , vpon the shoulders of sixe , or eight Noble menne , I praie you , whether of them hath greatter Honour ?

For the reste , The Pope , saithe M. Hardinge , is and olde Man : he rideth in his Pontificalibus : he is loden with Apparel : The Pyxe is weighty : The Weather is hoate : there is none other Creature to supplie his roome : Therefore it is lately concluded in Louaine in greate solemne sadnesse , that a Horse muste be had in , to plaie the Popes parte , and to carrie the Monstrance .

Here , for as mutche as M. Hardinge hath purposely made mention of the Popes ridinge in his Pontificalibus , and the Solemnitie , and Pompe thereof is knowen to fewe , it shal not be impertinente , briefely to disclose the order thereof . Thus therefore it is written in the Ceremoniarie of Rome : Ceremoniar . Section . 12. Cap. 5. Sic Papa equitat in Pontificalibus in aliquam Ciuitatem . Cardinales descendunt ex equis , & accedunt reuerenter ad Papam , & osculantur illi pedem . Episcopus Ciuitatis accedit ad Papam cum debitis reuerentijs , & offers illi Crucem osculandam : quam Pontifex reuerenter , cum Mitra tamen , osculabitur . Non enim commodé poterit ei abstrahi equiti ab equestribus . Miracles . Si tamen placuerit & Mitram deponere , non erit inconueniens . Deinde Praelatus incipiat Antiphonam , Ecce Sacerdos Magnus : Thus the Popes Holinesse rideth into any Cittie in his Pontificalibus . The Cardinalles lighte from their Horses , and comme reuerently vnto the Pope , and kisse his foote . The Bishop of the Cittie commeth likewise to the Pope with dewe reuerence , and offereth him the Crosse to kisse : whiche the Pope shal kisse reuerently , keepinge on his Miter notwithstandinge . For while be sitteth on horse backe , his horsemenne cannot very easily take of his Miter , and sette it on againe . Howbeit , if it shal like him to put of his Miter , it shal be no greate inconuenience . Afterwarde the Bishop shal beginne this Antheme , Beholde the Greate Prieste . And so he pricketh foorthe in his Pontificalibus .

The carrieinge out of the Arke of God into the fielde in the time of Eli the Highe Prieste , 1. Regum . 4. boadeth no very good Argumente for the carrieinge of the Sacramente . For at that time the Armie of Israel was ouerthrowen , thertie thousande Souldiers were slaine , and emongest them the twoo Sonnes of Eli : The Arke was taken : Eli him selfe fel backe from his Chaire , and brake his necke . Therefore , M. Hardinge , ye shal haue mutche adoo to make good your Procession by this example .

This mater , ye saie , hath benne proued by sundrie Miracles . Firste , whether there haue benne any sutche Miracles wrought , or no , it is vncertaine . But were it graunted , yet maie not your Miracles alwaies stande for good proufes . Your owne Doctour Alexander de Hales saithe , Alexand. Halen . Parte . 4. quae . 53. Mem. 4. Arti. 3. Miracula fiunt aliquando humana procuratione : aliquando Diabolica operatione : Miracles be wrought sometime by the woorkinge , and procurement of menne : and sometime by the conueiance of the Diuel . So saithe Nicolaus Lyra , an other of your owne Doctours , speakinge likewise of your owne Miracles : Nicol. Lyra , in 14. Ca. Danielis . Fit aliquando in Ecclesia maxima deceptio populi in Miraculis fictis à Sacerdotibus , vel eis adhaerentibus , propter Lucrum temporale . Et talia extirpanda sunt à bonis Praelatis , sicut ista extirpata sunt à Daniele : In the Churche ( of God ) the People is oftentimes mutche deceiued by Feined Miracles , either by the Priestes , or by Priestes familiars , for Temporal gaine . And sutche Miracles must be rooted out by good Bishoppes , as these were rooted out by Daniel . These woordes I am the more willinge to rehearse in this place , Reioinder , Pag. 9. a. Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 13. for that it liketh you , to carpe , and to pike quarrels at the same in your Reioinder .

To like purpose S. Augustine saithe , Contra istos , vt sic loquar , Mirabiliarios , cautum me fecit Deus meus , dicens , In nouissimis temporibus exurgent Pseudopropherae , facientes Signa , & Portenta , vt in errorem inducant , si fieri potest , etiam Electos . Ecce , Praedixi vobis . Ergo cautos nos fecit Sponsus : quia & Miraculis decipi non debemus : My God hath warned me to be ware of these Moungers of Miracles , saieinge , In the laste daies shal rise vp False Prophetes , woorkinge Signes , and Woonders , to the ende , if it be possible , to bringe the Electe into erroure . Beholde , I haue fore warned you . Therefore the Bridegrome hath willed vs to beware : For wee maie not be deceiued , no not by Miracles .

The tales , that ye allege , of Tharsitius , and Satyrus , make nothinge , either for the Adoration of the Sacramente , or els for the Popes Palfraie . Wemen , and Children , and Laie menne vsed then to carrie home the Sacramente in their Naptekinnes , Articulo . 1. and to keepe it in forcelettes , as in my Former Replie it is largely shewed . But these were Abuses of the Mysterie : and therefore afterwarde were abolished .

It greeueth you mutche , that wée saie , The Pope causeth , the Sacramental Breade to be carried before him vpon a horse , as the Kinges of Persia vsed in olde times to carrie the Fiere , whiche they called Orimasda , and imagined the same to be their God . And therefore ye crie out in your Passion , Chammes broode , Helhoundes , and what so euer might serue you beste : euen with like Sobrietie , and modestie , The carricinge of the Sacramente . as they , whoe sommetime in the like case cried out , Magna Diana Ephesiorum : Great is Diana of the Ephesians . Howe be it , other example more agréeable to resemble your folie , wée coulde finde none .

Neither maie you iustly , Actor . 19. and truely saie , ye haue receiued none of your Orders , and Vsages from the Heathens . Your owne Glose noteth vpon the Decrées , Clerici euntes ad Tumulos mortuorum portabant secum Sacramenta Corporis , De Con. Dist. 1. Non oportet , In Glosa . & Sanguinis Christi : & super tumulos ea distribuebant . Et haec Consuetudo facta fuit a Gentibus : The Clerkes ( or Priestes ) goeing to the graues of the deade , carried with them the Sacramentes of the Body , and Bloude of Christe : and made distribution thereof ouer the graues . And this same Custome was vsed emong the Heathens . Nicolaus Leonicenus saith , Nicola . Leonicenus , In Varia Historia , Libr. 2. Cap. 21. Isidis Sacerdotes in Aegypto vtebantur Lineis vestibus , & semper erant deronso capillo : quod etiam per manus traditum ad nostra vsque tempora peruenisse videtur . Siquidem ij , qui apud nos Diuino Cultui , & Sacris Altaribus praesident , barbam , comamque nutrire prohibentur : & in Sacris vtuntur lineis amictibus : The Priestes of the Goddesse Isis in Egypte vsed to weare linen surplesses , and euermore had theire heade shauen : Whiche thinge seemeth to haue benne deriued from them vnto our time , from hande to hande . For they , that emonge vs Minister Goddes Seruice , and serue the Holy Aultars , are forebidden to suffer the heare of theire heade , or theire bearde to growe : and in theire Diuine seruice vse Linen Garmentes . Epiphani . Lib. 3. Haeresi . 51. De Collyridienis , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Nazianzen . ad Heronem . Epiphanius saithe , that the Heretiques called Collyridiani , vsed to set foorth , & to carrie about Breade ( no doubte , but the Sacramente ) in the Honoure of the Blessed Virgine Marie . Nazianzenus séemeth thus to complaine of somme sutche vnséemely behaueours in his time : Quid referam , saithe he , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ? What shal I speake of the Holy Mysteries turned now into a plaie , or a Comedie ? For so Claudius Du Sainctes your owne Doctour expoundeth these woordes , Mysteria in comoedias conuersa .

Of the like disorder of the Heathens , Apuleius séemeth to saie , Dicimus Deos incedere humanis pedibus : Wee tel you , that our Goddes goe on mennes feete . The whole difference bitwéene you , and them , in this behalfe , standeth onely in this , that your God goeth on Horse féete , Claud. Du Sainctes , De Liturgijs . In Praefat. Apuleius , Lib. 11. and theire on mannes féete .

But the Holy Sacramente of Christes Deathe was neuer appointed vnto vs to this ende , to be carried thus aboute in open shewe : but onely to be receiued , as Christe him selfe commaunded , in remembrance of his Body , and Bloude . And therefore S. Cyprian . De Coena Domini . Augusti . Contra Faustum , Lib. 20. Cap. 13. Cyprian saithe , Recipitur , non includitur : It is receiued : it is not shut vp .

That ye allege , as out of S. Augustine , that the Painimes founde faulte withe the Christian people , for Honoure donne to the Body , & Bloude of Christe , vnder your Fourmes of Breade , & Wine , it is an open , and a manifeste Vntruthe . For S. Augustine in that place speaketh not one woorde , neither of the Body , and Bloude of Christe : nor of your Fourmes , and Accidentes : nor of any manner Adoration , or honoure donne vnto the Sacramente . It shal behoue you to write hereafter more aduisedly : Otherwise the Learned wil saie , ye either knowe not , or care not , Artic. 8. Diui. 24 what ye write . This Obiection of S. Augustine is answeared more at large in my Former Replie .

Touchinge the mater , Augu. De Ciuitate Dei , Lib. 1. Cap. 29. S. Augustine saith , Deus meus vbique Praesens est , vbique totus , nusquam inclusus : qui possit adesse secretus , abesse non motus : My God is euerywhere Presente , euerywhere whole , shut vp , or inclosed nowhere : Hable secretely to be Presente , Chrysost. De Ieiunijs . & Lectione Geneseos . and to be Absente without mouinge . And S. Chrysostome saith , Magnum , crede mihi , bonum est , Scire , quid sit Creatura , & quid sit Creator : & quae sint Opera , quis verò Opifex . Si enim hoc diligenter scirent discernere Haeretici , nunquam vtique omnia confunderent , & , quae Sursum sunt , facerent Deorsum . Non dico , quòd Coelum , & Stellas deorsum , terram autem sursum ducerent : sed quòd Regem ab excelsis Sedibus deducentes cum Creaturis , & Operibus collocauerint : Creaturam verò Diuinis honoribus affecerint . Beleeue me , it is a greate matter , to vnderstande , what is the Creature , and what is God the Creatoure : what are the Woorkes , and what is the Woorkeman . For , if theise Heretiques coulde make diligente difference hereof , they would not thus make confusion of al thinges , nor place those thinges beneathe , that be aboue . I meane not , They either pulle down the Heauen , or the Starres , or set vp the Earthe ( in theire Place ) : But that they pulle downe the Kinge him selfe from his high throne , and place him emongest his woorkes and Creatures : and of the other side , woorshippe a Creature with Godly Honoure .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 2.

Bisides , where they saie , and sommetime doo persuade fooles , that they are hable by theire Masses to distribute , and applie vnto mennes commoditie al the Merites of Christes Deathe , yea , although many times the parties thinke nothing of the mater , and vnderstande ful litle , what is donne , this is a Mockerie , a Heathenishe fansie , and a very ioie . For it is our Faith , that applieth the Deathe , and Crosse of Christe to our benefite , & not the Acte of the Massinge Prieste . Faithe had in the Sacramentes ( saithe Augustine ) doth iustifie , and not the Sacramentes . Origen . ad Roma . Li. 3. Cap. 3. And Origen saithe : Christe is the Prieste , the Propitiation , and Sacrifice : whiche Propitiation commeth to euery one by meane of Faithe . And so , by this reckeninge , wee saie , that the Sacramentes of Christe , without Faithe , doo not once profite these , that be a liue : a greate deale lesse doo they profite those that be deade .

M. Hardinge .

* * Vntruthe enclosed . For this is your Catholique Doctrine , as shal appeare . Leaste any piece of your Apologie should be without a witnes , for proufe that ye are his children , who is the father of lies : ye make vs to affirme , that by our Masses we distribute and applie to men indifferently , how : so euer they be disposed , for so ye meane , as it appeareth partely by that ye saie here , and special by your Doctrine other wheres vttered , al the Merites of Christes Deathe . But tel vs , † † Your owne Scholastical Catholique Doctoures , M. Harding . Reade the Answeare . who euer taught this Doctrine in the Catholike Churche ?

Yea , God is so good , and prone to bestowe his mercie , that , not onely when a man is through faithe prepared for it , he geueth it abundantly vnto him : but also though he of his owne parte haue no faithe presently , yet for others sake , whiche are Gods derely beloued frendes , he farethe the better , and hath that gifte obteigned to him . * * A ꝓper shifte . Wee speake of Sacramentes : M. Hardinge answeareth vs of Praier . As , when S. Steuen praied at his deathe for those , that persecuted him , for whom prayed he then , but for those , who had no Faithe at al in Christe ? And when this grace was geuen vnto them , as that from theire Iewishnes they came to the faith of Christe , who shal exclude that blessed Martyr from this worship and honoure , that throughe his praier , as by one special meane , that grace was applied vnto them ?

What effecte his praier tooke , The effecte of S. Steuens Praier . Act 9. Serm. 1. de Sanctis . Contra duas Epist. Pelagian Ad Bonifacium , Lib. 1. Ca. 19 Heb. 5. if any man thereof doubte , he maye thinke it to haue wrought mutche for the benefite of others of lesse malice , seinge that it did so mutche in Paule . Who as the Scripture saithe , yet breathinge out threatninges and slaughter againste Christes Disciples . was so chaunged and conuerted , that of a Persecutour he became an Apostle . For , as S. Augustine writeth , Si Sanctus Stephanus sic non orasset , Ecclesia Paulum non haberet : If S. Steuen had not praied so , the Churche shoulde not haue had Paule . Nowe , if those that be no Priestes , without publike Auctoritie of Consecrating the Body and Bloude of Christe , yet by waie of praier doo obteine , that men be conuerted to the Faithe , whiche is the applyinge of one fruite of Christes merites , mutche more the publike Minister , and Bishop , whiche assumpted from amonge men , is ordeined for men , in matters belonginge to God , that he may offer vp giftes and Sacrifices for sinnes .

And nowe if ye liste to learne what kinde of applyinge we vse in our Masses , The Applieing of Christes Deathe we doo offer vp vnto God firste , What kinde of applying is in the Sacrifice of the Masse . Lib. 1. de vocat . Gentium , Ca. 4. † † Vntruthe , P●asphemous , and horrible his Sonne , representinge his passion , and celebratinge the memorie of the same * * Vntruthe . For Christe ●eu 〈◊〉 bade you to offer him vp vnto his Father . accordinge to Christes institution .

But what measure of good we procure them , to God onely is that knowen . If ( as the Learned Bishop Prosper saithe ) the grace of our Sauiour passe ouer some Persons ( as we see it to happen ) and if the Praier of the Churche ( wherein the Sacrifice is conteined , after S. Augustines Minde ) be not admitted for them : it is to be referred to the secrete iudgèmentes of Goddes iustice , and it is to be acknowledged , that the depth of this secrete may not be opened in this life .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Thus ye saie , M. Hardinge : Ye make vs to affirme , that by our Masses wee distribute ; and applie to menne indifferently the Merites of Christes Deathe : howe so euer they be disposed in token , that ye are the Children of him , who is the Father of lies . Therefore ye saie , Tel vs , who euer taught this Doctrine in the Catholike Churche ?

If ye be so vnskilful , M. Hardinge , and so far to séeke in your owne Doctours , then it maie please you to vnderstande , that the moste Catholique Pillers of your Catholique Churche haue euen thus taught vs . Thomas de Vio , otherwise called Caietanus , a Catholique Cardinal of your Catholique Churche of Rome , in the Conference he had at Augusta in Germanie with Doctour Luther , saide thus , Fides non est necessaria accessuro ad Eucharistiam : Paralip . Vrsper . Anno. 1518. Faith is not necessarie for him , that wil receiue the Sacramente of thankes geuinge . Notwithstandinge otherwheres he acknowledgeth , this was an errour : and confesseth , it was commonly receiued and beleeued of many , euen in your Catholique Churche of Rome . Thus he writeth . In hoc videtur communis multorum error , Cardinal Caie●anus , De Vsis Spiritualium , Quae. 3. quod putant , hoc Sacrificium ex solo Opere Operato habere certum Meritum , vel certam satisfactionem , quae applicatur huic , vel illi : Herein standeth the Common Errour of many , that thei thinke , this Sacrifice hath a certaine Mente , or Satisfaction , whiche is applied to this man , or to the man ( not by meane of the Faithe of the receiuer , but ) by the Onely meane of the Woorke , that is wrought ( by the Prieste ) . Biel. Lection 81. Iacob . De Valentia , Sermo . 2. De Epiphania . Gabriel Biel saith , The Prieste receiueth the Sacramente : and the vertue thereof passeth into al the Members of the Churche . Iacobus de Valentia saithe , The Prieste is the Mouthe of the Body . Therefore , when the Prieste receiueth the Sacramente , al the Members are refreased . Againe he saithe , Nos Communicamus Ore Sacerdotis : Wee , that be of the People , doo Communicate , or receiue the Sacramente , by the Mouthe of the Prieste . Thom. De venerabil . sacramet . Aliar . Cap. 1 Thomas of Aquine youre Angelical Doctour saithe thus , Sicut Corpus Domini semel oblatum est in Cruce pro debito Originali , ita offertur iugiter pro quotidianis delictis in Altari : As the Body of our Lorde was once offered vpon the Crosse for the debte of Original Sinne , so it is daily offered vpon the Aultare for the debte of Daily Sinnes .

This Doctrine , not longe sithence , was holden for Catholique , and was strongly mainteined by your Catholique Doctours . Catharinus , one of the woorthies of your Late Chapter of Tridente , Catharinus , De Incruento Sacrificio Noui , & Aeterni Testamentes . saith , Apparet , quòd pro peccatis sub Nouo Testamento , post acceptam Salutaris Hostiae in Baptismo efficaciam commissis , non habemus pro Peccato Hostiam illam , quam Christus obtulit pro Peccato Mundi , & pro delictis Baptismum Praecedentibus : Non enim nisi semel ille Mortuus est : Et ideò semel duntaxat hostia illa ad hunc effectum applicatur : It appeareth , that for the Sinnes committed vnder the Newe Testamente , after that wee haue receiued in Baptisme the Power of the Healthful Sacrifice , wee haue nomore that sacrifice for Sinne , whiche Christe once offered for the Sinne of the Worlde , and for sinnes committed before Baptisme . For Christe neuer died but once . And therefore that Sacrifice of Christe Crucified is applied vnto vs once onely to this effecte .

Hereby M. Hardinge , ye maie sée , that this Doctrine lacketh no defence emongest your Catholiques . The Applieing of Christes Deathe . The summe , and meaninge hereof is this , That our Sinnes committed after Baptisme , are not foregéeuen by the Death of Christe , but Onely by the Sacrifice of the Masse . Whiche thinge , what it séemeth to you , I cannot tel : But vnto al Godly eares it seemeth an horrible greate blasphemie .

Here , to speake of Praiers , specially in so large a sorte , it was far impertinente to your pourpose , as beinge vtterly no parte of this question .

The Merites of Christes Deathe , whereof wée entreate , are conueied vnto vs by God , and receiued by vs . God conueieth them to vs onely of his Mercie : and wée receiue them Onely by Faithe . But the waies , whereby either to procure Goddes Mercie , or to enkendle our Faithe , are many and sundrie . Goddes Mercie is procured sommetime by Praier , sommetime by other Meanes . But to bréede , or encrease Faith in vs , there are moe waies , then can be reckened . Somme menne are moued Onely by the Hearinge of Goddes Woorde : Somme others by the beholdinge , Euseb. Li. 4. Ca. 8 and weighinge of Goddes Miracles . Iustinus the Martyr was firste alluered to the Faithe by the crueltie of the Tyrannes , and by the Constancie , and Patience of Goddes Sainctes . Cyprian . De Laude Martyrij . S. Cyprian saith , Tanta est vis Martyrij , vt per illam credere etiam cogatur , qui te vult occidere : So greate is the Power of Martyrdome , that thereby euen he is forced to beleeue , that woulde kille thee . S. Augustine saithe , August . Confes . Lib 3. Cap. 4. He was sturred vp to comme to Christe , by readinge a Heathen Booke written by Cicero , called Hortensius . Thus he saithe , Ille Liber mutauit affectum meum , & ad ●eipsum , Domine , mutauit Preces meas : That ( Heathen ) Booke changed my minde , and turned my praiers , ô Lorde , vnto thee .

Emonge other causes , the Sacramentes serue specially to directe , and to aide our Faithe : August . Contra Faustum . Lib. 19. Cap. 16. For they are , as S. Augustine calleth them , Verba visibilia , Visible Woordes : and Scales , and Testimonies of the Gospel .

All this notwithstandinge , wee saie , It is neither the Woorke of the Prieste , nor the Nature of the Sacramente , as of it selfe , that maketh vs partetakers of Christes Deathe , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 80. but onely the Faithe of the Receiuer . S. Augustine saithe , Vnde est ista tanta Virtus Aquae , vt Corpus tangat , & Cor abluat , nisi faciente Verbo ? Non quia dicitur , sed quia creditur : From whence hathe the Water this greate power , that it toucheth the Body , and wassheth the Harte , sauinge by the Woorkinge of the Woorde ? Not for that it is pronounced , but for that it is beleeued .

So saithe Hesychius , Helych . in Leuit. Lib. 4. Cap. 14. Cyrill . in Leuit. Lib. 3. Gratia Dei comprehenditur Sola Fide : The Grace of God ( of our parte ) is receiued by Onely Faithe . So saithe Cyrillus , Siclus Fidei nostrae Formam habet . Si enim Fidem obtuleris , tamquam Pretium , à Christo , velut Ariete immaculato in hostiam dato , accipies Remissionem Peccatorum : The Sicle hath the Fourme of our Faithe . For if thou offer vp thy Faithe , as the Price , thou shalt receiue Remission of thy Sinnes , from Christe that vnspotted Ramme , that was geeuen for a Sacrifice .

Where ye saie , ye offer vp Christe , the Sonne of Godde , Really , and Substantially vnto God the Father , If ye speake in your dreame , it is a very pleasante phantasie : but if ye be awake , and knowe , what ye saie , then is it a greate blasphemie : as in my Former Replie it maie appeare more at large . Art●●eul . 17.

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 1.

And as for theire bragges , they are woonte to make of theire Purgatorie , though we know , it is not a thing so very late risen emongest them , yet is it no better then a blockishe , and an olde Wiues deuise .

M. Hardinge .

Purgatorie semeth not to vs a thinge , that wee shoulde mutche bragge of , no more then ye● wil bragge of Hel. Power ouer Purgatorie . We tremble at the remembrance of it rather then bragge of it . Wel , howe so euer it be , Purgatory acknowleged by the Defenders to be of antiquitie . Apoc. 21. wil ye , nil ye ( we see ) * * No marueile . It was receiued of the Painimes , longe ere the Apostles were borne . ye be driuen to confesse the same to be no newe thinge .

In deede if you cal them Papistes , among whom the Doctrine of praieing for the deade , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . Reade the Answeare . whereof necessarely foloweth the Doctrine of Purgatorie , is deliuered , taught and holden : then are the Apostles , who deliuered it by Tradition , ( as Chrysostome and Damascene reporte ) Papistes . Firste , * * This fantasie were sommewhat , if wee had no Purgation in Christes Bloud . forasmutche as nothing that is defiled commeth into the Kingdome of Heauen , and some departe out of this Life , though in the Faithe of Christe , and Children of the Euerlastinge Kingdome , yet not throughly and perfitly cleane : it remaineth , that sutche after this Life before they come to the place of Euerlastinge ioye , 2. Cor. 7. haue theire Purgation . Furthermore the Apostle saithe , Seeinge then we haue these promises derely beloued , let ‡ ‡ A doughty Argumente , to proue Purgatorie . vs cleanse our selues from al filthines of the Fleashe , and Spirite , makinge perfite our satisfaction in the feare of God . Who seeth not hereof to folowe , that to many , whiche be iustified , somewhat of satisfaction , and Holynes lacketh ? Whiche if they be taken from hence , before they atteine to the measure of Holynes requisite , be they not then after this Life in state to be purged and cleansed ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here are wée comme to the Paper Walles , and Painted Fieres of Purgatorie . For so it liked M. Harding , not longe sithence , pleasantly to sport at it in the Pulpites , as a bugge méete onely to fraie Children . Yet now , vpon better aduise , and déeper studie , he tremblethe , God wote , and quaketh for feare , to remember the tormentes , that somme body hath sithence tolde him to be there . Howe be it , Let him not so mutche dismaie him selfe . The Pope , as he either firste made it , or receiued it by hande from the Heathens , and firste allowed it , euen so hathe he the whole Iurisdiction , and Power ouer it , and commaundeth in , and out at his pleasure .

Whether ye make bragges hereof , or no , I leaue it in question . Certainely for this , Panormi . De Electione . Cap. Licet . and other like causes , One of your felowes saithe , Papa potest , quicquid Deus ipse potest : The Pope can doo , what so euer God him selfe can doo . An other saith , Animae existentes in Purgatorio , sunt de Iurisdictione Papae : & Papa , si vellet , Iohan. Angelus . posset totum Purgatorium euacuare : The Soules being in Purgatorie , are ( in the Popes Peculiare , and ) vnder the Popes Iurisdiction : and the Pope , if it might stande with his pleasure , were hable ( to make gaole deliuerie , and ) to auoide al Purgatorie . And to this pourpose , Clemens Pap. 6. in Bulla . The Pope him selfe Commaundeth , and Chargeth the Angels of God , to fetche foorthe from thence , whom so euer , and howe many so euer he wil haue deliuered , as hereafter in a place more conuenient it shal better appeare . If these séeme to be no bragges , then let them hardly be called by somme other name , that maie seeme to please you better .

Ye take good holde , in that wée Confesse , This Imagination of Purgatorie is no Newe fansie . Howe be it , your aduantage herein is not so greate . There haue benne errours , and great errours from the beginninge . S. Augustine saith , Origenes ipsum Diabolum , atque Angelos eius post grauiora pro Meritis , & diuturniora supplicia , August . de Cluitate Dei , Lib. 21. Cap. 17. ex illis Cruciatibus eruendos , atque sociandos Sanctis Angelis credidit : The Ancient Learned Father Origen beleued , that the Diuel him selfe , and his Angels , after greate , and long pounishement suffered for theire wickednesse , shal be deliuered from theire tormentes , and shal be placed ( in Heauen ) with the Holy Angels of God . Origen . in ●pist . ad Roman . Ca. 6 Lib. 5. Origen him selfe saith , There were somme , that thought , that Christe should goe down into Helle , and there be Crucified againe , to saue them , that by his Preachinge , and Former Death could not be saued . Againe the same Origen saith of him , selfe , Ego puto , quòd post Resurrectionem ex mortuis indigebimus Sacramento cluente nos ▪ Origen . in Lucan Homil 14. atque Purgante : I thinke , that after wee shal rise againe from the Deade , wee shal haue neede of the Sacramente ( of Baptisme ) to washe vs , and to Purge vs cleane .

S. Augustine saithe , The Antiquitie of Purgatorie . Quidam nullas Poenas , nisi Purgatorias , volunt esse post Mortem : Somme menne wil haue no pounishemente to bee after Deathe , but onely the paines of Purgatorie .

Euen in Paules time there were somme , August . de Cluitate Dei , Lib 21. Cap. 13. 1. Cor. 15. Concil Cartha . 3. Canon . 6. that , being aliue , were Baptized for the deade . And by the Councel of Carthage it appeareth , there were somme , that vsed to thruste the Sacramente into the Mouthe of the Deade Body , meaninge thereby , as it maie be thought , to procure somme relife for the Soule . The woordes be these : Placuit , vt Corporibus defunctorum Eucharistia non detur . Dictum est enim à Domino , Accipite , & Edite . Cadauera autem nec accipere possunt , nec Edere : Wee thinke it good , that the Sacramente be not geuen to the Bodies of the Deade . For our Lorde saithe , Take , and Eate . But Deade Bodies can neither Take , nor Eate . These were Ancient Errours in olde time , as it is easy to be séene .

As for the fantasie of Purgatorie , it sprange firste from the Heathens , and was receiued emongest them in that time of darkenesse , long before the comming of Christe : as it maie plainely appeare by Plato , & Vergile , in whom ye shal finde described at large , Plato in Timaeo . Aeneid 6. August . De Ciuita . Li. 7. Ca. 7. the whole Common Weale , and al the Orders , and Degrées of Purgatorie . S. Augustine saithe , The Olde Heathen Romaines had a Sacrifice , whiche they called Sacrum Purgatorium , A Purgatorie Sacrifice .

You saie , If they be Papistes , that Defende Purgatorie , then muste Christes Apostles néedes be Papistes . For they haue taught vs Purgatorie , ( not by any woorde that euer they wrote , but ) by Tradition . This is as true , as that S. Peter saide Masse in Rome with a Golden Cope , and a Triple Crowne . Onlesse perhaps somme man wil thinke , 1. Tim. 6. where as S. Paule saith , Homines Priuati Veritate , existimantes quaestum esse pietatem : They be menne voide of Truthe , thinkinge that theire gaine is Godlinesse : 2. Pet. 2. Or , where as S. Peter saithe , Per auaritiam fictis sermonibus nego●iabuntur de vobis : Through couetousnesse by fained talke they shal make sale of you , that by these woordes they gaue vs Warninge of the very Fourme ▪ and Doctrine of your Purgatorie . For better Authorities , then these be , I recken , ye can lightly finde none .

As for Praier for the Deade , whiche , ye saie , ye haue receiued by Tradition from the Apostles , notwithstandinge it were graunted to be true , yet dooth it not euermore importe Purgatorie . For Chrysostome , and Basile in theire Liturgies make theire Publike , and solemne Prater in this sorte : Offerimus tibi rationalem hunc cultum , Basil . & Chrys. in Liturgijs . pro in Fide requiescentibus , Maioribus , Patribus , Patriarchis , Prophetis , & Apostolis , Praeconibus , & Euangelistis , Martyribus , Confessoribus , &c. Praecipuè verò pro Sanctissima , immaculata , super omnes benedicta , Domina nostra Deipara , & semper Virgine Maria : Wee offer , O Lorde , vnto thee this reasonable seruice for them , that reaste in Faithe , Our Elders , Our Fathers , The Patriarkes , the Prophetes , the Apostles , the Preachers , the Euangelistes , the Martyrs , the Confessours , &c. Specially for the moste Holy , without spotte , blessed aboue al , our Lady Goddes Mother , and euer Virgine Marie . S. Cyprian saithe in like manner , Sacrificamus pro Martyribus , Cyprian . Lib. 3. Epist. 6. Wee make Sacrifice for the Martyrs . Yet , I trowe , ye wil not conclude hereof , that the Patriarkes , Prophetes , Apostles , Preachers , Euangelistes . Martyrs , Confessours , and the Blessed Virgine Marie , were al in Purgatorie . Otherwise ye woulde mutche enlarge the Popes Dominion .

Of the other side , in your Masses for the Deade , ye haue vsed to praie thus : Libera eos à Tartaro : è profundo Lacu : ex Ore Leonis : Deliuer them O Lorde ( not from Purgatorie , but ) from Hel : from that deepe Doungeon : from the Lions Mouthe . I trowe , ye are not so mutche thral vnto the Pope , that ye wil turne , the Lions Mouthe , the Deepe Doungeon , and al the worlde , and Helle it selfe , into Purgatorie . Thus ye sée , M. Hardinge , by your owne Doctrine , ye maie praie for the Deade , Vncleansed . and yet be neuer the neare of your Purgatorie .

But to healpe forewarde the mater , at the leaste by somme Natural reason , ye saie thus , For as mutche as nothinge , that is defiled , commeth into the Kingdome of Heauen , and somme departe oute of this Life , though in the Faithe of Christe , and Children of the Euerlastinge Kingdome , yet not throughly and perfitely cleane , it remaineth , that sutche , after this Life , before they comme to the Place of Euerlastinge toie , haue theire Purgation . To warrante your Minor in this Argumente , ye bringe in the woordes of S. Paule , as rightly , and as wel to pourpose , as your manner otherwise is commonly to handle the Scriptures : Though our outwarde man be corrupted , 2. Cor. 4. and weakened ( whiche woordes S. Ambrose expoundeth thus , By Oppression , by Stripes , by Hunger , by Thirste , by Colde , by Nakednesse ) Yet our Soule is renewed , and made stronger daie by daie . And againe , Let vs cleanse our selues from al filthinesse of Fleashe , 2. Cor. 7. and Sprite . Ergo , saie ye , We must confesse by force of theise Woordes , that there muste needes be a place , wherein to Purge vs cleane after this Life . Here maie wée a litle put you in remembrance by the waie : If wée cleanse our selues , accordinge to these woordes of S. Paule , from al manner filthinesse , bothe of Fleashe , and of Sprite , I beseeche you , what remaineth there then further , to be Purged in Purgatorie ?

Howe be it , to proue the Imperfection , and corruption of Nature , that euermore hangethe in our Fleashe , ye might , in my Iudgemente , haue alleged many other Authorities , Esai . 64. Iob. 15. far more pregnante , and clearer , then these . Esai saithe , Al our righteousnesse is like vnto a fowle stained cloute : Iob saithe , Inter Sanctos eius nemo est Fidelis : Et Coeli non sunt mundi in Conspectu eius : Emonge the Sainctes of God , there is none Faitheful : Roman . 7. Augu. in psal. 143 The Heauens are not Cleane in his sight . S. Paule saithe , I knowe there is no good thinge in my Fleashe . S Augustine saithe , Let the Apostles of Christe them selues saie , O Lorde , foregeeue vs our offences .

Sutche imperfections , and Corruptions , while wee liue , wee euermore carrie in our Fleashe . Therefore , saie you , To be Purged hereof , that wee maie be cleane , and fitte to enter into Heauen , wee muste needes passe thoroughe the Fieres of Purgatorie . By this meane ye haue wel enlarged the Popes Iurisdiction . For this beinge true , neither is there , nor neuer was there any Creature , neither Prophete , nor Apostle , nor Martyr , nor Angel , nor Archangel , nor Heauen it selfe , Christe onely excepted , but of force muste be cleansed in your Purgatorie . Origen . in Psal. 36. Homil 3. And therefore Origen , a greate fautoure of this erroure , saith thus , Vt ego arbitror , Omnes nos necesse est venire in illum Ignem : etiamsi Paulus aliquis sit , vel Petrus : As I suppose , al wee muste needes comme into that Fiere : Yea althoughe it be Paule , or Peter . Origen . in Lucan Homil. 14. And therefore he saithe , as it is alleged before , Ego puto , quòd & post Resurrectionem ex Mortuis , indigebimus Sacramento eluente nos , atque Purgante . Nemo enim absque sordibus Resurgere poterit . Neque vllam puto posse animam reperiri , quae vniuersis statim vitijs careat : I thinke , that after the Resurrection from the deade , wee shal neede the Sacramente ( of Baptisme ) to washe vs , and to make vs cleane . For noman can rise againe without filthe . Neither doo I thinke , there can any Soule be founde , voide from al manner of Sinne .

But al these be vaine fantasies : I meane , as wel these of M. Hardinge , as also the other of Origen . 1. Iohan. 1. S. Iohn saith , Sanguis Iesu Christi Filij Dei purgat nos ab omni Peccato : The Bloude of Iesus Christe the Sonne of God Purgeth vs , and maketh vs cleane from al our Sinnes . The Prophete saithe , In what hourre so euer a sinner shal repente , and mourne for his sinnes , he shal be safe . Esai saithe , If your Sinnes shal be as redde as Scarlet , Esai . 1. Hebrae . 1. yet shal they be made as white , as snowe . S. Paule saithe , Christus Purgationem Peccatorum nostrorum fecit : Christe ( by his Bloude ) hathe wrought the Purgation of our Sinnes . Vncleansed . Therefore . S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . De Passione Christi . Sanguis tuus , Domine , non quaerit vltionem : Sanguis tuus lauat crimina , Peccata condonat : Thy Bloud , ô Lorde , seketh no reuenge : Thy Bloude wassheth our Sinnes , and Pardoneth our trespasses .

And , whereas you telle vs , out of somme Heathenishe fantasie , that Sinnes cannot be washte awaie , but with longe tracte of time , and paine in Purgatorie , S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . De Coena Domini . In eodem articulo temporis , cùm iam anima festinet ad exitum , & egrediens ad labia expirantis emerserit , Poenitentiam Clementissimi Dei benignitas non aspernatur . Nec Serum est , quod Verum est : In that very moment of time , euen when the Soule is ready to passe , and is euen at the lippes of the partie ready to yelde vp the Sprite , the goodnesse of our moste merciful God refuseth not repentance . And what so euer is truely donne , is neuer too late .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 27. Latro in Cruce neque vno die opus habebat . Et quid dico , vno die ? Neque breui hora. Tanta est Dei erga nos Misericordia : The Thiefe on the Crosse needed not so mutch as one daie , to repente him selfe . What speake I of one daie ? No , he needed not one houre . So greate is the Mercie of God towarde vs .

Of the other side , if any man departe hence without repentance , S. Augustine saithe , August . Epist. 80. Imparatum inueniet illum Dies Domini , quem Imparatum inuenerit suae vitae huius vltimus dies : Him shal the daie of the Lorde finde vnprouided , whom the laste daie of this life findeth vnprouided . Ambrosi . De Bono Mortis . S. Ambrose saithe , Qui hîc non accipit Remissionem Peccatorum , ibi non erit : He that here in this life receiueth not Remission of his Sinnes , shal not be there . And S. Hierome expoundinge these woordes of Christe , Thou shalt not goe foorthe thence , vntil thou haue paide the laste farthinge , saithe , thus , Hierony . in Lamentationes Hieremiae , Li. 1. Cap. 1. August . De Sermon . Domini in Monte , Lib. 1. Significat semper non exiturum else : quia semper soluat nouissimum quadrantem , dum sempiternas Poenas terrenorum Peccatorum luit : Christes meaninge is , that he shal neuer comme out : for that he muste euermore paie the laste farthinge , whiles he suffereth euerlastinge pounishemente for his Sinnes committed in this worlde .

So saithe S. Augustine , Donec soluas nouissimum quadrantem : Miror , si non cam significat poenam , quae vocatur Aeterna : Vntil thou paie the laste farthing : I marueile , but he m●●●eth that paine , whiche is called Euerlastinge .

Hereby , M. Hardinge , I thinke , it maie partely appeare , that you mainteine your painted Fire , and Paper Walles , with painted Authorities , and Paper Reasons . Verily the Christian people of the Easte Churche of God , whiche sommetime was as greate , and as famous , as the Churche of the Weast , notwithstandinge they beleeued in God , and his Christe , and knewe there was boothe Hel , and Heauen , yet in your Purgatorie thei had no skil . One of your Doctoures saithe , Alphonsus De Haeresibus . Li. 8. De Indulgetijs . Vsque in Hodiernum diem Purgatorium non est a Graecis creditum : Vntil this daie , of the Grecians , or of the Easte Churche , Purgatorie was neuer beleued . Therefore ye cannot iustely saie , that your fantasie herein was euermore accoumpted Vniuersal , or Catholique .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 2.

Augustine in deede sommetime saith , Augu. in Psal. 85. there is sutch a certaine place : sommetime he denieth not , but there maie be sutch a one : sommetime he doubteth : sommetime againe he vtterly denieth , there is any at al , and thinketh , that menne are therein deceiued by a certaine Natural good wil , they beare theire frendes departed . But yet of this one Erroure hathe there growen vp sutche a haruest of those Massemongers , that , the Masses beinge solde abroade commonly in euery Corner , the Temples of God became shoppes , to geate monei : and selie soules were borne in hande , that nothing was more necessarie to be bought . In deede there was nothinge more gaineful for these menne to selle .

M. Hardinge .

Wel railed . If your reasons , or Authorities were so piththy , as your mockes and scoffes be spiteful , ye were to be hearde . But thankes be to God , that sutche shrewed beastes haue shorte hornes . Act. 25. Nowe to S. Augustine . And as Festus sayde to S. Paule , Haste thou appealed to Caesar ? to Caesar shalt thou goe : So saie wee to you , though not hauinge that Auctoritie ouer you , whiche Festus had ouer S. Paule : To Augustine ye referre this mater , and by Augustine shall ye be iudged .

I woulde alleage vnto you sundrie places of the * * It was a good pointe of skil , with a good countenance to passe them ouer . Scriptures , whiche maie Sufficiently proue Purgatorie to a Christen man , that is not contentious , but that wil we doo hereafter as occasion serueth . Nowe to Saincte Augustine . S. Augustine affirmeth Purgatorie in plaine and expresse woordes . 1. Cor. 3. We saie plainely , that S. Augustine affirmeth Purgatorie , and that it ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . It shal be shewed . Reade the Answeare . cannot be shewed where he doubteth of it , mutche lesse where he vtterly denyeth any sutche to be . In sundry places of his woorkes he expoundeth the woordes of S. Paule to the Corinthians of Purgatorie , where the Apostle saithe , that the woorkes , whiche be builded vpon the fundation ( whiche is Christe ) shal be tried by Fire . In the 21. Booke de Ciuitate Dei , after that he hathe declared his iudgemente touchinge paines of diuerse sortes , whiche men suffer for Sinnes committed , he saithe thus : But paines temporal some suffer in this life onely : some after theire Death : some both now and also then , yet before that moste seuere and laste iudgemente .

May it therefore please you Syrs , to reade S. Augustine in some sutche places ( for to reade al that he hathe written to that ende were very mutche , O , so careful this good man is for our cares . and a greate lette to your domestical cares ) and I thinke verily ye wil secretly agree in iudgemente with vs , thoughe for shame and consideration of the stage ye plaie your parte on , openly the same ye wil not confesse . And therefore in his booke de Haeresibus ad Quoduultdeum , he condemneth Aërius of Haeresie ( and so consequently al others that be of his opinion ) because to the Heresies of the Arians he had added this , also , that none ought to praie , or make oblation for the deade .

Where ye make S. Augustine very vncertaine in this pointe , as though he saide sommetime there is sutche a certain place , sometime there maie be sutche a one , sometime he doubted of it , sometime plainely denied any sutche to be : either ye vnderstande not S. Augustine , or ye saie contrary to your owne knowledge . Verily ye be too bolde with him . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe Manifeste . Reade S. Augustines woordes in the Answeare . Firste that he denieth Purgatory , that is false . And where ye alleage Hypognostica in the margent of your booke , reade it once againe at my request , and your selues wil saie : the place proueth not your purpose . Lib. 5. Hypognostic●n . The Author of that woorke , whether he were S. Augustine , whiche Erasmus beleueth not , or who so euer he was , denieth not Purgatory : but that after the daie of general iudgemente there is any place of Euerlastinge rest , or paine , but the Kingdome of Heauen , and Hel , that he denieth . Whiche we also denie . And there he speaketh againste the Pelagians , Haeres. 88. who , as S. Augustine writeth of them ad Quoduultdeum , promised to infantes dyinge without Baptisme a certaine euerlastinge and blessed life without and besides the Kingedome of God . Whiche Heresie in sundry places he reproueth . It seemeth the woorde Purgatorium , noted in the margent of that booke * * Vntruthe . For the margine was so noted by Erasmus . by th unlearned Printer , begiled you . Whiche sheweth howe profoundely ye be seene in the Doctores . What is that S. Augustine doubted of touchinge Purgatory . The thinge , he doubted of , touchinge this matter , is this : Whether those temporal paines do onely punishe for the ‡ ‡ Vntruth , blasphemous against the Bloude of Christe . Reade the Answeare . Satisfaction of the Iustice of God , or also do purge and correcte the soules of the deade in sutche wise , as temporal paines are wont to do in this life . But nowe , whether the smarte , and sorowe of thinges lefte behinde , whiche proceded in this life of Carnal affection , remaine also to the soules after theire departure from the Body , whereof S. Augustine sheweth him selfe to stande in doubte in Enchiridio ad Laurent . cap. 68. & 69. and whether the fyre whiche soules feele in Purgatory as it paineth them , * * O graue Commentarie : and a wi●e mater to be called in question . so also do by degrees diminishe and correcte those venial and Secular affections , whiche they carried with them at theire Deathe , or whether deathe it selfe do so ende them , as there remaine not any correction of the minde yet beinge vicious , Scriptures to proue Purgatorie . but onely the punishemente of the sinne paste : that is the thinge , whereof S. Augustine ‡ ‡ This whole mater is concluded with seeminge , and likely hoode . semeth to haue doubted . In effecte his question is , whether the Fire of Purgatorie be not * * Double Fire in Purgatorie : Double Folie . double . The one whiche punisheth the Venial sinne past : the other whiche diminisheth and taketh awaie th affection of sinne yet remaininge . Of the firste he doubteth not : of the other he saith , non redargno , De Ciuita . Dei , Lib. 21. Cap. 26. quia forsitan verum est , I saye not againste it , for per aduenture it is true .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée raite at you , M. Hardinge , euen as Christe railed at certaine others , in whoes steppes ye séeme to treade , for that they had made of the House of God a Caue of theeues .

The places of the Scriptures , whiche ye thought it beste to passe ouer , and whereby your Purgatorie by your iudgemente vndoubtedly maie be proued , if a man be not very contentious , Iohan 5. I trowe , be these : Verily , Verily , I saie vnto you , he that heareth my Woorde , and beleeueth in him , that sente me , hath Euerlastinge Life : and shal not comme into damnation : but hathe passed from Deathe vnto Life . Or , that Esai the Prophete saithe of Christe : Esai . 53. He was wounded for our transgressions : He was broken for our iniquities : The chastisemente of our Peace was vpon him : and with his stripes wee were made whole . Or , that S. Paule saith , Christe hath taken the Obligation , that was againste vs , Coloss. 2. Apocal. 14. and hathe fastened it vnto his Crosse . Or , that S. Iohn saith , Blessed be the Deade , that die in the Lorde . Euen so saithe the Sprite . For they reste from theire laboures : and theire Woorkes folowe them . He saithe not , they be in Purgatorie : but , they reste from theire Laboures . Apocal. 7. And againe , They shal hunger nomore : They shal thirste nomore . For the Lambe , whiche is in the middes of the throne , shal gouerne them , and shal leade them ( not into Purgatorie but , ) vnto the liuely Fountaines of Waters : and God shal wipe a waie al teares from theire eies . These , or sutche other like Places , I trowe , they be , whereby ye assure your selfe so certainely of your Purgatorie .

But vnto S. Augustine , wée haue appealed : and to S. Augustine , ye saie , wée shal goe . Howe be it , if ye consider the mater wel , ye shal finde , that our appeale liethe not vnto S. Augustine . It had benne more indi●ferente dealinge , to haue saide with S. Bernarde , Bernard . in Cantica , Serm. 65. Ad Euangelium appellasti : & ad Euangelium ibis : Ye haue appealed vnto the Gospel : and vnto the Gospel ye shal goe .

As for S. Augustine , notwithstandinge his Authoritie be greate , and his learninge deepe , yet in these cases , as it shal wel appeare , he can be but a doubteful Iudge . And a doubteful Iudge , so far foorthe , as he doubteth , is no Iudge . August . ad Laurenti . Ca. 67. & Dist. 29. Sciendum . Your owne Canon telleth you , In erroris Labyrinthum nonnulli intricando impingunt , cùm ante iudicant , quàm intelligant : Many menne geuinge Iudgemente before they can vnderstande , by entanglinge them selues , fal into a Maze of errour . For howe can he pronounce sentence of that , he confesseth , he knoweth not ? Or how can he assure vs , August . In 8. qu. ad Dulcitium q 1. that is not hable to assure him selfe ?

Touchinge the certainetie of this Doctrine , to alleage one , or twoo places out of many , S. Augustine writeth thus : Tale aliquid , etiam post hanc Vitam fieri , incredibile non est : & , vtrùm ita sit , quaeri potest : Somme sutch thing ( he meaneth the Fire of Purgatorie ) to be after this Life , Augu. De Ciuit. Lib. 21. Cap. 21. it is not incredible : And whether it be so , or no , ‡ ‡ It maie be a question . It maie be a question . Againe , Quòd Spiritus Defunctorum , &c. ignem transitoriae Tribulationis inueniant , non redarguo : quia Forsitan Verum est : That the Sprites of the Deade finde a Fire of transitorie Tribulation , I reproue it not : For * * Perhaps it is true . Perhaps it is true . Augu. De Fide & Operib ca. 16

Againe , Siue ergo in hac Vita tantùm homines ista patiuntur , siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur : non abhorret , Quantum Arbitror , Quantum arbitror . à ratione Veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae : S. Augustine doubteth . Therefore whether menne suffer sutch thinges onely in this Life , Or els somme sutche Iudgementes folowe euen after this Life , ‡ ‡ As mutche as I thinke . As mutche as I thinke , Augu. De Ciuit. Lib. 21. Cap. 27. the vnderstandinge of this sentence disagreeth not from the order of the Truthe .

And againe he saithe , Quis sit iste modus , & quae sint ista Peccata , quae ita impediant peruentionem ad Regnum Dei , vt tamen Sanctorum amicorum meritis imperrent indulgentiam , difficillimum est inuenire : Periculosissimum definire Ego certè vsque ad hoc tempus , cùm inde ●atagerem , ad eorum indaginem peruenire * * Non potui . non potui : What meane this is , and what Sinnes these be , whiche so lette a man from comming vnto the Kingdome of God , that thei maie notwithstanding obteine Pardonne by the Merites of Holy frendes , is it very harde to finde : and very dangerous to determine . Certainely I mee selfe , notwithstandinge greate studie , I coulde neuer attaine to the knowledge . and trauaile taken in that behalfe , coulde neuer attaine to the knowledge of it .

By these it is plaine , that S. Augustine stoode in doubte hereof , whether there be any sutche Purgatorie Fire , or no. Therefore vndoubtedly he tooke it neither for an Article of the Christian Faith ( for thereof it had not benne lawful for him to doubte ) nor for any Tradition of the Apostles .

Ye saie , S. Augustine neuer doubted , whether there were any sutche Place of Purgatorie , or sutche Fire , or no : But onely , whether the tormentes there doo satis●ie the Iustice of God for Sinne , or no : and whether the same tormentes doo by degrees diminishe the Venial Sinnes , and Seculare Affections , whiche the Parties carried with them , or no. Notwithstandinge what shoulde any question be raised hereof ? Plato , and Vergile , and other Heathen writers , from whom this Doctrine first flowed abroade , woulde soone haue put you quite out of doubte . Vergile hereof emongest others saithe thus :

Quin & supremo cum lumine vita reliquit , Aeneid . 6. Non tamen omne malum miseris , nec funditus omnes Corporeae excedunt pestes : Penitus●ue necesse est Multa diu concreta modis inolescere miris . Ergo exercentur poenis , veterum●ue malorum Supplicia expendunt : Aliae panduntur inanes Suspensae ad ventos : alijs sub gurgite vasto Infectum eluitur scelus , aut exuritur igni .

But reade you S. A●gustine , M. Hardinge : you , I saie , that , to vse your owne woordes , are so profoundely seene in al the Doctours , that ye maie boldely despise al others what so euer : Reade , I saie , S. Augustine : examine better the Places , and weigh the woordes : And ye shal finde , that he neuer neither mentioneth , nor toucheth any of these your prety fantasies : but saithe plainely , whether it be so , or no , it maie be a question : I reproue it not : For perhaps it is true .

And are ye so Profoundely seene in al the Doctoures , & Scriptures , M. Harding , that ye thinke , there is either Fire , or Water , or any other Creature , wherewith to satisfie the Iustice of God againste Sinne , sauinge onely the Bloude of the Lambe of God , that taketh awaie the Sinne of the Worlde ? Or thinke you , that S. Augustine woulde turne vs from the Satisfaction of Christe , and sende vs to séeke for any other ? Certainely S. Augustine him selfe saithe , Valeat mihi ad Perfectionem liberationis tantùm Pretium Sanguinis Domini mei : Augustin . in Psalm . 25. Let Onely the Price of the Bloude of my Lorde auaile me to the Perfection of my deliuerie .

Againe he saithe , Double Fiere . Quando aliquis se conuerterit ad Deum , Prorsus illi omnia dimittuntur . Nemo sit sollicitus , Augu. De Verbis Domini , Serm. 59 quòd aliquid ei non dimittatur : When so euer any man turneth him selfe vnto God , al thinges vtterly are foregeeuen him . Let noman be doubteful , leste any thinge happily be not foregeeuen . Chrysostome imagineth God thus to saie of a sinner : Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 44. Vnum tantùm requiro , vt confiteatur peccata , & ab eis desistat : Nec vltrà infero Poenam peccatis : This thinge onely ( saithe God ) I require of a Sinner , that he confesse his Sinnes ( vnto me ) and leaue the same . Afterward I laie nomore pounishemente vpon his Sinnes . Chrysost. De B. Philogonio . Likewise againe he saithe , Ego Fideiubeo : Si quis nostrum recedat a Peccatis ex animo , & verè Promittat Deo , se ad illa non rediturum , nihil Deum requisiturum ad Satisfactionem : I wil stande bounde in Goddes behalfe : If any of vs foresake his Sinnes with al his harte , and make true promisse vnto God , that he wil nomore returne vnto them , that then God shal require nothinge els vnto Satisfaction . He , that knoweth not thus mutche , hath no greate cause to vaunte him selfe of his profound knowledge in the Doctours . But it Gods Iustice againste your sinne be fully satisfied by the Bloude of Christe : If the Onely price of our Lordes Bloude haue wrought the perfection of your deliuerie : If there remaine nothinge vnforegeeuen : If God require no further pounishemente : What shoulde you seeke for other Satisfaction in your painted Fires , and smokes of Purgatorie ?

To conclude , ye saie thus , In effecte , S. Augustines question is , whether the Fire of Purgatorie be not double . O M. Hardinge , it ye were simple , and meante simply , ye woulde not so vainely double the pointe . I beseche you , what double Fire of Purgatorie meante S. Augustine ? Or where was he euer so double in dealinge ? By your double Diuinitie , and Profounde knowledge in the Doctoures , ye haue at the laste skilfully founde out a Double Purgatorie Fire , and a Double Purgatorie . Howe be it , as you are nowe troubled about the Fire of your Purgatorie : so were somme others of your frendes , not long sithence , as mutche troubled aboute the Water . Sir Thomas Moore . Zachar. 9. Sir Thomas Moore saide , and helde for certaine , that in al Purgatorie there is no Water : no , not one droppe . And that , he saide , he would proue by the wordes of the Prophete Zacharie : Eduxisti vinctos tuos de lacu , in quo non erat Aqua : Thou haste deliuered thy Prisoners out of the Doungeon , wherein there is no Water .

Of the other side , The Bishop of Rochester . Psalm. 65. Roffensis saith , Yes , there is in Purgatorie good stoare of Water . And that , he saith , he can proue by the Prophete Dauid : Transiuimus per Ignem , & Aquam : & eduxisti nos in Refrigerium : Wee haue passed through Fire , and Water : and thou haste brought vs foorth into a Place of refreasshinge . Albertus , and Roffensis saie , The Executioners , and Ministers of Purgatorie , be Holy Angels : Sir Thomas Moore saithe , Out of doubte , they be no Angels , but very Diuels . So handesomely these dreames agrée togeather .

To returne to the mater , where ye saye , Wée mutche mistooke the place of S. Augustine , being deceiued by the Ignorante note in the Margine , where also ye so pleasantly sporte your selfe with our Profounde knowledge in the Doctoures , the Woordes of S. Augustine , August . Hypognosti . Lib. 5. that ye meane , be these , Primum Locum Fides Catholicorum , Diuina Authoritate , Regnum credit esse Coelorum : vnde non Baptizatus excipitur : Secundum , Gehennam : vbi omnis Apostata , & à Christi Fide alienus Aeterna Supplicia experietur : Tertium Penitùs ignoramus : imò nec esse in Scripturis Sanctis inueniemus : The First Place the Catholique Faithe , by Goddes Authoritie , beleeueth to be the Kingdome of Heaune : From whence , who so euer is not Baptized , is excluded : The Seconde Place , the same Catholique Faithe beleueth to be Hel : Where al Renegates , and who so euer is without the Faithe of Christe , shal taste Euerlasting Pounishement . As for any Thirde Place , wee vtterly knowe none : neither shal wee finde in the Holy Scriptures , that there is any sutche . S. Augustine denieth Purgatorie . If these woordes make not against your Purgatorie , yet truely , in any appearance , they make but sclenderly for your Purgatorie . S. Augustine saithe , Any other Thirde place ( after this life , bisides Heauen , and Helle ) wee vtterly knowe none . Neither can we finde in the Holy Scriptures , that there is any sutche .

But if al these three places , Heauen , Hel , and Purgatorie , had benne certainely knowen , and Vniuersally receiued in the Churche , & yet bisides these three places , the Pelagian Heretiques would haue diuised , as you imagine , an other seueral Place , to receiue the Soules of sutche Children , as departed out of this life without Baptisme , then coulde not S. Augustine haue truely saide , Tertium locum ignoramus : Wee knowe no Thirde place : But rather he shoulde haue saide , Fourthe place . Quartum locum ignoramus , Fourthe place wee knowe none . For , by your iudgemente , the doubte had benne , not of the Thirde place , but of the Fourthe . And it had benne a greate ouersight for S. Augustine , in the reckeninge onely of Foure places , to haue forgotten One : and specially sutche a One too , as hath benne founde more gaineful of late yéeres , then the other Three : But his woordes be plaine : Heauen wee knowe : and Hel wee knowe : But any Thirde place bisides Heauen , and Hel , wee knowe none .

This woorde , Purgatorium , was noted in the Margine , not by the Printer , as you saie , but by Erasmus , a man of famouse memorie : whose name for learninge , & iudgemente , hath at al times emonge the Learned , benne mutche estéemed : with whom your yonge Louanian Cleregie maie not wel compare , in the profounde knowledge of the Doctours , without great blusshinge . And thus mutche , touchinge this one place of S. Augustine , wherein it hath pleased you so déepely to charge vs with grosse ignorance . But for better trial of his iudgemente herein , ye should haue considered , what he hath written otherwheres to like purpose .

In his Epistle to Hesychius he saithe thus : August . Epist. 80. In quo quenque inuenerit suus nouissimus dies , in hoc eum comprehendet mundi nouissimus dies . Quoniam qualis in die isto quisque moritur , talis in die illo iudicabitur : In what state his owne laste daie shal finde eche man , in the same state the laste daie of the worlde shal finde him . For sutche as euery man in this daie shal die , euen sutche in that daie shal he be iudged . Againe , Qualem inuenit Dominus , August . in Apocalyp . Homil. 11. August . ad Petrum Diacon . Cap. 3. cùm hinc vocat , talem & iudicat : As our Lorde findeth a man , when he calleth him hence , euen so he iudgeth him . And againe , Qui in hac vita Deo non placuerit , habebit quidem Poenitentiam in Futuro Soeculo de malis suis : sed indulgentiam in conspectu Dei non inueniet . Quia etsi erit ibi stimulus poenitudinis , nulla tamen erit correctio voluntatis : Who so in this life shal not please God , shal in the worlde to comme haue Repentance for his Sinnes : but Pardonne in the sighte of God he shal not finde . For although there shal be there the pricke of Repentance , Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta . 49. Olympiodorus in Ecclesiast. Ca. 9. yet there shal be no amendemente of the wil. Againe he saithe , Vnusquisque cum causa sua dormiet , & cum causa sua resurget : Euery man shal die with his owne cause , and rise againe with his owne cause . Olympiodorus saith , In quocunque loco &c. deprehendetur homo , cùm moritur , in eo gradu , atque ordine permanet in Aeternum . In what place , or state so euer a man shal be founde , when he dieth , in the same state , and degree he shal remaine for euer .

But to recken vp al , that might be saide in this behalfe , it woulde be longe . A simple man , M Harding , without any profounde knowledge of the Doctoures , maie easily , sée , that these saieinges wil hardly stande with your Doctrine of Purgatorie . Your owne Roffensis saithe , Polydor. De Inuentorib . Lib. 8. Cap. 1. Nemo nunc dubitat Orthodoxus , in Purgatorium sit : De quo tamen apud Priscos , vel nulla , vel quàm rarissima fiebat mentio . Sed & Graecis ad hunc vsque diem non est Creditum : Quamdiu enim nulla esset cura de Purgatorio , nemo quaesiuit Indulgentias : No Catholique man now doubteth of Purgatorie : Ceremonies . Whereof notwithstandinge emonge the Ancient Fathers there is either no mention at al , or very seldome . Yea euen vntil this daie the Grecians Beleue it not . For so longe as there was no care for Purgatorie , noman sought after Pardonnes . By whiche witnesse it appeareth , that Pardonnes , and Purgatorie were brought in iointely bothe togeather . And as the case nowe standeth , and as moste menne thinke , the Pope could be contented to lose bothe Heauen , and Helle , to saue his Purgatorie .

The Apologie , Cap. 17. Diuision . 1.

As touchinge the multitude of vaine , & superfluous Ceremonies , wee knowe , that S. Augustine did greuousely complaine of them in his owne time : & therefore haue we cutte of a great number of them : bicause wee knowe , that mennes consciences were encumbred aboute them , and the Churches of God ouerladen with them . Neuerthelesse wee keepe stil , & esteeme , not onely those Ceremonies , whiche , wee are sure , were deliuered vs from the Apostles : but somme others too bisides , whiche wee thought mighte be suffered without hurte to the Churche of God : for that we had a desire , that al thinges in the Holy Congregation might , as S. Paule commaundeth , be donne with comelinesse , & in good order . But , as for al those thinges , whiche , wee sawe , were , either very superstitious , or vtterly vnprofitable , or noisome , or mockeries , or contrarie to the Holy Scriptures , or els vnseemely for sober , & discreete people , whereof there be infinite numbres nowe a daies , where the Romaine Religion is vsed , these , I saie , wee haue vtterly refused without al manner exception : bicause we would not haue the right worshippinge of God to be any lenger defiled withsutche folies .

M. Hardinge .

S. Augustine , whom ye alleage wrongfully against the Ceremonies of the Catholique Churche . speaketh onely of the cuttinge awaie of suche manners , and rites , as be crepte into some one particulare Countrie , neither conteined in Holy Scriptures , nor established by Councels of Bishops , nor confirmed by Custome of the whole Churche . But howe proue you by that place , that you maie pul downe Aultars , and Images : disallowe the Vowe of Pouertie , Lente , Oile ? &c. S. Augustine referreth the taking awaie of any Custome , or manner vnto dewe Authoritie , exhortinge it to be donne . Vbi faculras tribuitur : Where Power is geuen to doo it . Neither els may it be donne lawfully at al , &c. Ye thinke , wee haue many ridiculous , and fonde thinges , in our Ceremonies . If we had , * * Vntruthe . For S. Augustine , speakinge of his time , saithe , Tam multis Praesumptionibus ita plena sunt omnia , &c. as in deede wee haue not , would ye laugh at them , as Cham did at the nakednesse of his Father Noe ? &c. Laugh on ye cursed Chananees : but wee wil daunce before the Arke : we will ‡ ‡ Then be yee circumcised , as Paule was . For this was onely a Iewishe Ceremonie . shire our heade with Paule , &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

This mater had benne ouer colde , had not M. Hardinge a litle enflamed his Choler in the ende , & cried out vpon his Cursed Chananees . His Aultars , his Images , his Vowes , his Lentes , & his Otles be answeared sufficiently otherwheres .

S. Augustines woordes , August . Epist. 119 concerninge this mater , are pregnante and plaine : H●cnimis doleo , quia multa , quae in Diuinis Libris saluberrimè praecepta sunt , minùs curantur : & tam multis Praesumptionibus sic plena sunt omnia , &c. This thinge greeueth me , that so many thinges , whole somely commaunded in the Holy Scriptures , are not regarded : and of thinges are ful of so many presumptions , August . in ead . Epistol. &c. And againe , Quamuis ista contra Fidem non sint , tamen ipsam Religionem , quam Paucissimis , & Manifestissimis Celebrationum Sacramentis Misericordia Dei liberam esse voluit , seruilibus oneribus ita premunt , vt tolerabilior sit conditio Iudaeorum : qui etsi tempus libertatis non agnouerint , Legalibus tamen sarcinis , non humanis Praesumptionibus subijciuntur : Al be it these thinges be not against the Faithe , yet with seruile burthens they so oppresse our very Religion , whiche God of his Mercie woulde haue to bee free , vnder very fewe , and moste manifeste Sacramentes of Diuine Seruice , that the state of the Iewes is mutche more tolerable ( then the state of the Churche of Christe ) . For the Jewes , notwithstandinge they knewe not the time of Libertie , yet were they subiecte to the packes , and burthens of the Lawe ( of God ) : and not vnto the Diuises , and Presumptions of Menne .

Of sutche Diuises , Chrysost in Matthae . Homil. 52. and Presumptions , Chrysostome saithe , Non dicunt , Cur Legem Mosi , sed Cur Traditionem Seniorum transgrediuntur ? Vnde patet , eos multa innouasse , cùm Deus contrà vetuisset , ne quid adderent , aut minuerent . Sed illi , cùm timerent , ne Principatum amitterent , ceu legum Latores , vt Maiores esse viderentur , plurima innouarunt . Quae res ad tantam peruenir nequitiam , vt praecepta sua custodirent magis , quàm Praecepta Dei : The Phariseis saie not vnto Christe , Wherefore doo thy Disciples breake the Lawe of Moses , but , Wherefore doo they breake the Traditions of the Elders ? Whereby it appeareth , that they had altered many thinges : whereas God had commaunded , that they shoulde neither adde , nor diminishe . But fearinge , leste they shoulde lose their Authoritie , as if they had benne Lawe Makers , to th ende they mighte seeme the greatter , they altered mutche . Whiche thinge ( in the ende ) grewe to sutche a wickednesse , that they keapte their owne Commaundementes , more then the Commaundementes of God .

In like manner saithe S. Cyril , Cyrill . in Iohan. Lib. 8. Cap. 1. Vellent suam Doctrinam , & Paternas Traditiones ab hominibus potiùs suscipi , atque in admiratione , honoreque haberi . Quicquid igitur Christo credentium accesserit , sibi detractum putant : The Phariseis woulde , that menne should receiue , and magnifie their Doctrine , and the Traditions of the Fathers : Therefore howe many so euer Faitheful came vnto Christe , they thought so many were loste from them .

It is not true , that ye saie , Traditions maie not be changed , or abolished without the general Consente of the whole Churche . For Ceremonies , as thei neuer grew togeather at one time in al places , so can they not lightly be abolished togeather at one time in al places . Socrates , Lib. 5. Cap. 22. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Socrates , eod. loco . Socrates saithe plainely , Videtur mihi , Multa modò in his regionibus , modò in illis Consuetudinem obtinuisse : It seemeth vnto me , that many thinges haue benne receiued by Custome , nowe in one Countrie , and nowe in an other . Againe he saithe , In vniuersum certèe , & in omnibus Obseruationibus piarum precum , non possunt duae Ecclesiae inueniri , quae prorsus inter se consentiant : Verily to speake Vniuersally , in al maner of Obseruations , or Fourmes of Common Praier , there cannot two Churches be founde , that agree thorowly bitwene them selues . S. Augustine saithe plainely , Omnia talia , &c , vbi facultas tribuitur , sine omni dubitatione resecanda existimo : Al sutche thinges , in my iudgemente , ought to be cut of , August . Epist. 19. Dist. 63. Quia Sancta . as soone as iuste occasion , or Power is geeuen , without any manner of doubtinge . So saithe Pope Steuin , Si nonnulli ex Praedecessoribus , & Maioribus nostris fecerunt aliqua , quae illo tempore potuerunt esse fine culpa , & posteà vertuntur in errorem , & Superstitionem , sine tarditate aliqua , & cum magna Authoritate à posteris destruantur : If sundrie of our Predecessours , or Elders haue donne certaine thinges , whiche at that time might wel be donne without hurte , and afterwarde are turned into errour , and superstition , without any staggeringe , and with greate Authoritie let them be destroied , and abolished by the Successours .

We laugh not , as , ye saie , at the nakednesse of our Father , M. Hardinge . Our Father is in Heauen , the Father of Light , the God of Glorie : and in him there is no nakednesse . Wée laugh not at any of these thinges , but wee saie with S. Augustine , as it is alleged before , Hoc nimis doleo , &c. This thinge very mutche greeueth me , August Epist. 119 that so many thinges wholesomely commaunded in the Holy Scriptures , are not regarded : and that al thinges are ful of so many presumptions : And that , as S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost in Matthae . Homil. 52. Hieremi. 23. These thinges are called vpon , and more regarded , then the Lawes , and Commaundementes of our Father . Our Father saithe of you , and of your Felowes : Volunt facere , vt obliuiscatur Populus meus Nominis mei propter somnia sua : They wil cause , that my people shal foregeate my name , for loue of their Dreames . Our Father saithe , Hieremi. 2. Two-euils haue my people donne : They haue foresaken me the Fountaine of the Water of Life : and they haue ripte vp to them selues broken Cesternes , that can holde no Water . Our Father saithe , Hieremi . 23. Esai . 1. Matthae . 15. What is chaffe vnto the Corne ? Who hath required these thinges at your Handes ? To be shorte , hereof Christe him selfe saithe thus , Euery plante , that my Heauenly Father hath not planted , shal be pluckte vp by the Rootes .

The Apologie , Cap. 18. Diuision . 1.

Wee make our Praiers in that tongue whiche al our people , as meete is , maie vnderstande , to th ende they maie ( as S. Paule counselleth vs ) take common commoditie by Common Praier : euen as al the Holy Fathers , and Catholique Bishoppes , bothe in the Olde , and Newe Testamente did vse to Praie them selues , & taught the people to Praie too : leste , as S. Augustine saithe , Like Parottes , and Ouselles wee shoulde seeme to speake , that wee vnderstande not . Neither haue we any other Mediatour , and Intercessour , by whom wee maie haue accesse to God the Father , but onely Iesus Christe , in whose onely name al thinges are obteined at his Fathers hande . But it is a shameful parte , and ful of Infidelitie , that wee see euery where vsed in the Churches of our aduersaries , not onely in that thei wil haue innumerable sortes of Mediatoures , & that vtterly without the Authoritie of Goddes Woorde : ( So that , as Ieremie saithe , the Sainctes be nowe as many in numbre , Ierem. Cap. 2. & 11. or rather aboue the numbre of the Cities : and poore menne cannot tel , to whiche Saincte it were beste to turne them firste : And though there be so many , as they cannot be tolde , yet euery one of them hath his peculiare duetie , & office assigned vnto him by these folkes : what thinge they ought to aske , what to geeue , and what to bringe to passe ) But bisides this also , in that their doo not onely wickedly , but also shamefully calle vpon the Blessed Virgine Christes Mother , to haue her remember , that she is a Mother , and to commaunde her Sonne , and to vse a Mothers authoritie ouer him . There is but one Mediatour of Saluation , who is Christe onely : But the Sainctes his frendes be Mediatours of Intercession . 2. Corin. 1.

M. Hardinge .

Wee haue but onely one Mediatour to Saluation Iesus Christe , by whose merites God is reconciled vnto vs . But where ye saie , that besides the same one Mediatour ▪ ye haue none other , that * * This is M. Hardings legierdumaine . For wee speake onely of sutche Mediatours , as wee ought to praie vnto . may Prai or make Intercession for you , that pointe of false beleefe ye may keepe for your selues . We had rather holde with ‡ ‡ As if S. Paule had euer willed vs to Praie to Sainctes . S. Paule , who as he praied for al Christen menne , so he doubted not to saie to the Corinthians , that he hoped to escape danger , A diuuantibus vobis in Oratione pro nobis , by the helpe of you in Praier for vs . If one good man maye helpe an other in this life by Praier , whiles he hath yet some what of his owne to be careful for : muche more the Sainctes , whiche are dissolued , and raigne with Christe , can healpe vs with their perfite Praier . Ye can tell ( I trowe ) that S. Hierome made this argumente within litle of twelue hundred yeeres paste . Mediatour of Saluation . Neither make we them Gods , as ye woulde seeme to saie by the place ( whiche beinge spoken by the Prophete Hieremie of very Idolles ) ye applie to the frendes of Christe . Psalm. 138. Whome Dauid saithe to be vnto him moste honorable , and their dominion to be moste stronge . There is no cause why yee shoulde wonder , if diuerse Cities doo gladly acknowledge some one Holy Angel , Sainctes be peculiar patrones of certaine places . Sapien. 3. Apostle , Martyr , or Confessour , as their chiefe Patrone and Frende . For if ( as it is written ) Michael the Archangell was once Prince of the Iewes : and stoode alwaies for the children of Gods people : it is not to be doubted but that Christen people haue nowe also their * * Vntruthe , procedinge of vaine dotage . Patrones . To this purpose ‡ ‡ A graue Authoritie , taken oute of the very Portuise . some apply that whiche is written , Fulgebunt iusti , & tanquam scintillae in arundineto discurrent , iudicabunt nationes , & dominabuntur populis , & regnabit dominus illorum in perpetuum : The iuste men shal shine , and like sparkes of fire in drie kickes shal runne abroade : they shal iudge nations , and beare rule ouer peoples , and our Lorde shal reigne ouer them for euer . S. Ambrose is of that opinion plainely , where he saithe , writinge vpon S. Luke , In fine Lib. S. comment . in Lucam . Sicut Angeli praesunt , ita & ij qui vitam meruerint Angelorum . As the Angels be ouer Nations , so they also whiche deserue the Life of Angels .

Concerninge the offices that , ye saie , wee appointe vnto the Sainctes , ye muste vnderstande , that as God hath shewed by any Miracle , what good woorke he hath wrought by this Saincte , rather then by that : so the people desire to obteigne of God by the same Sainctes Praier that thinge , wherein they maie ‡ ‡ This is the certainetie of M. Hardinges Praier . It hangeth of a blinde coniecture . coniecture , that God hath geuen him moste grace . And because our Lady the blessed Virgine Mary hath more grace geuen to her , Intercession of the blessed Virgin Mary . then any other Creature ( excepte ye can name * * It is a greatter Grace to be the Childe of God . a greater grace then to be the Mother of God ) : therefore all Christen Nations are moste bolde to desire in Praier to be reliued by her Intercession , and Mediation of her Praier made to her Sonne Iesus Christe , who ( we doubte not ) heareth her moste , gladly , as nolesse intendinge to doo good by her continually to vs , then we are sure , that by her he hath done for vs those greate benefites , whiche continually we doo receiue , for so muche as he tooke Fleashe of her . And seinge that Christe is the firste begotten amonge many Brothers , Roman . 8. Marie Mother to al that loue Christe . Iohan. 19. Spiritual familiaritie with the mother of God , in excesse of minde and soueraine Deuotion . wee that are called into one Heretage with him and by him , maie take harte to accompt Christes Mother , for our Mother , specially whereas he saide vnto Iohn his Disciple , and in him to all the Children of Grace , beholde thy Mother .

If nowe any spirituall man suche as S. Bernarde was , deepely consideringe the greate honour and dignitie of Christes Mother , doo in excesse of minde ‡ ‡ Open Blasphemie , is Spiritual dalliance : O wheu wil M. Hardinge confesse a faulte ? spiritually sporte and dally ( as it were ) with her , biddinge her to remember , that she is a Mother , and that thereby she hath a certaine right to commaunde her Sonne , and require in a moste sweete manner , that shee vse her righte : is this either impiously , or impudently spoken ? Is not he rather moste impious and impudent , that findeth faulte there with ? If euer any of you had practised in contemplation any of that swetenes , whiche is in Canticis Canticorum , ye shoulde haue founde , that there the spiritual Soule is bolder with God her Creator and , spouse , then S. Bernarde euer was with our Lady , beinge but a Creature , and a member of the same Churche with him .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Ye saie , There is one onely Mediatoure of Saluation : but there are many Mediatoures of Intercession . And thus with this prety simple distinction , ye conueigh your selfe awaie inuisible in a clowde . But to cutte of quarrels , M. Hardinge , Let vs haue that one onely Mediatoure of Saluation : and then afterwarde take to you your other Mediatoures of Intercession at your pleasure .

Howe be it , if Christe onely be the Mediatoure of Saluation , wherefore then doo you thus cal vpon the Blessed Virgine Christes Mother , Salua omnes , qui te glorificant ? Saue thou al them , that glorifie thee . Here ye intrude vpon Christes office : and make the Holy Virgine a Mediatoure , not onely of Intercession , but also of Saluation . Wherefore saie ye thus of Thomas Becket , of whose Saincthoode , for ought that I knowe , ye maie wel stande in doubte : Tu per Thomae Sanguinem , quem pro te impendit , Fac nos Christe scandere , qu● Thomas Ascendit : O Christe , make vs to Ascende vnto Heauen , whither Thomas is Ascended , euen by the Bloude of Thomas , Mediatour of Intercession . that he sheadde for thy sake . Here you seeke , not onely Intercession , but also Saluation in the Bloude of Thomas . Wherefore doothe S. Ambrose saie , Ambrosi in Sermone 6. De S. Margareta . if it were S. Ambrose , that wrote the Booke , Reddere debemus Sanctis honorificentiam , qui nobis Salutem profusione sui Sanguinis pepererunt : qui tam Sacra Hostia pro nostra propitiatione Domino sunt oblati : Wee muste yelde honoure vnto the Sainctes , whiche haue procured Saluation for vs , by the sheaddinge of their Bloude : Whiche also were offered vp vnto the Lorde so Holy a Sacrifice for our Saluation . If wée haue Saluation in the Bloude of Sainctes , then is not Christe the Onely Mediatoure of our Saluation .

He is no indifferente Vmpeere , that firste diuideth Offices equally bitwéene twoo , and afterwarde alloteth bothe offices to One alone .

Notwithstandinge , the ende , and office as wel of Intercession , as also of Saluation , is , to Reconcile vs vnto God , & to procure vs Mercie . But this is Christes onely office : He reconcileth vs vnto God : He presenteth vs vnto the Throne of Grace . Rom. 8. 1. Timoth. 2. And therefore , as S. Paule saithe , he euermore maketh Intercession , for vs . And for that cause also he saithe , Vnus est Mediator Dei & Hominum , Homo Christus Iesus : There is One Mediatoure bitweene God , and Man , Christe Iesus beinge Man .

S. Paule requireth the people to make Intercession , and to praie for him . This is true . And God hath commaunded , that al the Faitheful should praie one for an other . But S. Paule neuer required the people to praie to Sainctes . S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . Contra Epist. Parmeniant , Lib. 2. Cap. 8. Augustin . in eod. Lib. Paulus non facit se Mediatorem inter Populum , & Deum : Sed rogat , vt pro se orent inuicem omnia Membra Coporis Christi : Paule maketh not him selfe a Mediatoure bitweene God and the people : but requireth , that they Praie al one for an other , beinge al the Members of the Body of Christe . Againe he saithe of S. Iohn , Si Iohannes ita diceret , Hoc Scripsi vobis , vt non peccetis : et si quis peccauerit , Mediatorem me habetis apud Deum , & ego Exoro pro peccatis vestris , Sicut Parmenianus quodam loco Mediatorem posuit Episcopum inter Populum , & Deum , quis eum ferret bonorum , atque Fidelium Christianorum ? Quis sicut Apostolum Christi , & non sicut Antichristum intueretur ? If S. Iohn woulde saie , This haue I written vnto you , that ye Sinne not : and if ye Sinne , ye haue me your Mediatoure before God , and I wil intreate for your Sinnes , As Parmenian ( the Heretique ) in a certaine place made the Bishop a Mediatoure bitweene God , and the People , what good , and Faitheful Christian Man coulde abide him ? Who woulde looke vpon him , is the Apostle of Christe : and not rather thinke him to be Antichriste ? Here , M. Hardinge , your sely distinction of Intercession , and Saluation , cannot saue you . For Parmenian neuer thought , the Bishop was a Mediatoure of Saluation . And yet S. Augustine saithe , If S. Iohn woulde haue saide so mutche of him selfe , he had not benne the Apostle of Christe : but rather shoulde haue benne iudged , and taken for Antichriste .

Ye thinke , the woordes of the Prophete Hieremie spoken of Idolles , and False Goddes , maie not iustely be applied to the Sainctes of God . In déede of the Sainctes parte , it were greate blasphemie , to calle them Idolles . For they sée God face to face , and euermore be with God in Glorie . But in respecte of your horrible Abuses , and vaine fantasies , the Woordes of the Prophete be rightly applied . For you , in your imagination , of the Sainctes of God haue made Idolles : and haue so multiplied , and encreased the same , that the number of them hath far passed the number of al your Townes , and Citties . And therefore the Anciente Father Epiphanius applieth the like woordes of the same Prophete Hieremie , vnto the Blessed Virgin Marie , beinge then idolatrousely abused by the Heretiques called Collyridiani , Distincte Offices . euen as the same Blessed Virgin , & other Sainctes are by you abused nowe . Thus he writteth , Epiphani . Li. 3. Hares . 59. Ne quis comedat de errore , qui est propter S. Mariam . Tametsi enim pulchrum sit lignum , tamen non est ad Cibum . Etsi Pulcherrima est Maria , & Sancta , & Honorata : at non ad Adorationem . Hae ver● Mulieres , colentes Mariam , rursus renouant Fortunae Mixturam , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . & praeparant Mensam Diabolo , non Deo : Quemadmodum scriptum est , Pascuntur Cibo impietatis . Et rursus , & Foeminae terunt Pollinem , & Filij colligunt ligna , vt faciant Placentas oleo subactas Reginae Coeli . Compescantur à Hieremia tales Mulieres : & ne turbent Orbem terrarum . Ne dicant , Honoramus Reginam Coeli : Let noman Fate of this Erroure , touchinge S. Marie . For though the tree be faire , yet is not this Fruite to be Eaten . Although Marie be bew●ieful , and Holy , and Honourable , yet is she not to be Adoured . But these Women , worshippinge S. Marie , renewe againe the Sacrifice of Wine mingled in the Honure of the Goddesse Fortuna , and prepare a Table for the Diuel , and not for God . As it is written in the Scriptures . They are fedde with the Meate of Wickednesse . And againe , Theire Women boulte flower : and theire Children geather stickes , to make fine Cakes in the Honoure of the Queene of Heauen . Therefore let sutche Women be rebuked by the Prophete Hieremie : and let them nomore trouble the worlde . And let them not saie , we Worship the Queene of Heauen .

Here wée see , the woordes , that were spoken of the Heathenishe Idolles , are applied by Epiphanius vnto the Mother of Christe : not to deface that Blessed Virgin , but to declare the fonde errours of those Heretiques .

As for the distribution of offices , and seueral dewties , limited , and appointed to eche Saincte in his degree , it shable best for modesties sake to saie nothinge . S. Augustine speaking of the Heathens , from whom this parte of your Diuinitie , M. Hardinge , was first deriued , saithe thus , Dicebat , ita esse vtilem cognitionem Deorum , Augusti . De Ciuita . Li. 4. Ca. 22 si sciatur , quam quisque Deus vim , aut potestatem habeat cuiusque rei . Ex eo enim poterimus , inquit , scire , quem cuiusque rei causa Deum aduocare , atque inuocare debeamus : ne faciamus , vt Mimi solent , & optemus à Libero Aquam , à Lymphis Vinum : Varro saide , The knowledge of the Goddes is Profitable , if a man vnderstand , what Power , and Authoritie eche God hathe in euery thinge . For so , saithe be , wee maie knowe , whom to cal vpon , and whom to praie vnto : Leste happily wee doo , as certaine Mimi are woont to doo : that is to saie , Leste of Bacchus , the God of Wine , we begge Water , or of Lymphae , the Goddesses of Water , we begge Wine .

These thinges hauinge theire beginninge emonge the Heathens , haue sithence benne brought euen into the Churche of God : and al the Sainctes in Heauen haue benne appointed , eche one in Order to his Seueral Office : Leste any one should intrude into an others roume . Antoninus saith . in his time . where S Paule and Freere Dominike were painted togeather , the manner was , vnder the Image of S. Paule to write these woordes , Per hunc itur ad Christum : Wee maie come to Christ , by this Saincte : But vnder the Image of Freere Dominike , they wrote thus , Sed magis per istum : Yet mutche rather by this Saincte : Whereby was meante , that Freere Dominikes Office , and Authoritie before God , was sommewhat better , then S. Paules .

Whereas ye teache the people thus to praie vnto the Blessed Virgin , Monstra te esse Matrem : Commaunde thy Sonne : Vse thy Motherly Authoritie ouer him : Let him knowe thee to be his Mother , this you saie , is no blasphemie , but a Spiritual dallicinge . Nowe verily , M. Hardinge , this muste needes be a blessed kinde of Diuinitie , that can turne Praier into Dalliance .

One of your Beaupeeres of Louaine , as a man carrieing his face in his hand , saith boldely , Copus Dialog. 3. Pag. 340. these wordes were neuer vsed in your Churche . And therefore he saith with good courrage , Interim à bonis istis viris quaero , Cur non nominant illas Ecclesias , quae Virginem Matrem tam impudenter appellant ? Mother of God . Childe of God . Cur eas , inquam , non nominant ? In the meane season , saithe he , this question I demaunde of these honeste menne : Why name they not those Churches , whiche so impudently cal vpon that Virgin Christes Mother ? I saie , Why doo they not name them ? Your modestie herein , M. Hardinge , is more praisewoorthy . You are contented to graunde the facte : and pleasantly to excuse it by a Spiritual Dallieinge .

But ye maie tel your saide Felowe , that this kinde of Praier was Vniuersally vsed throughout al your whole Churche of Rome : that Menne , Women , and Children , Learned , and Vnlearned were taught , and forced thus to praie : Thou arte the Queene of Heauen : Thou arte the Lady of Angels : Commaunde thy Sonne : Shewe thee selfe to be the Mother . Ye maie tel him , that Cardinal Bembus , sometime the Popes Secretarie , Bembus in Epist. ad Carolum . 5. Concil. Trident. Session . 2. calleth the same Blessed Virgine , Dominam , & Deam nostram : Our Lady , and Goddesse . Tel him , that Ambrosius Catharinus in your Late Chapter at Tridente , representing , as you saie , your whole Catholique Church , calleth the same Blessed Virgine Goddes Felowe , by these woordes , Fidelissima eius Socia : Goddes moste Faitheful Felowe .

Ye maie further tel him , Concil. Oxoniens . that in your Councel of Oxforde , Christes name is quite forgotten , and leafte out : and Our Ladies name put in place : For thus it beginneth , Authoritate Dei Patris , & Beatae Virginis , & omnium Sanctorum , &c. By the Authoritie of God the Father , and of the Blessed Virgine , and of al Sainctes . Notwithstandinge ye maie wel answeare , as before , that al this was no manner blasphemie against God , but onely a Prety Spiritual Dalliance : euen sutche Dalliance , 1. Corin. 10. I trowe , as S. Paule meaneth by these woordes , Sedit Populus ad manducandum , & bibendum : & surrexerunt ad Ludendum : The People sate downe to eate , and drinke : and rose vp againe to Plaie , or Dallie , that is to saie , to committe Idolatrie .

You saie , Our Lady , the Blessed Virgine hathe more grace geuen her , then any other Creature , excepte ye can name a greatter Grace , saie you , then to be the Mother of God . Verily , M. Hardinge , to be the Childe of God , it is a greate deale greatter Grace , Augustin . De Sancta Virginitate , Cap. 3 then to be the Mother of God . S. Augustine saithe , Beatior ergo Maria fuit , Percipiendo Fidem Christi , quàm concipiendo Carnem Christi . Materna Propinquitas nihil Mariae profusset , nisi foelicius Christum Corde , quàm Carne gestasset : Marie was more Blessed ( or suller of Grace ) in that she Receiued the Faithe of Christe , then in that she Conceiued the Fleashe of Christe . Motherly kinreade coulde haue doone Marie no good , onlesse she had borne Christe more Blessedly in her Harte , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta. 10. then she bare him in her Fleashe . And againe he saithe , Mater mea , quam appellastis Foelicem , inde Foelix est , quia Verbum Dei custodtuit : Non quia in illa Verbum Caro factum est : My Mother , whom ye haue called Blessed , therefore is Blessed , bicause she hathe keapte the Woorde of God : Not bicause the Woorde in her was made Fleashe .

Therefore saithe Epiphanius , Epiphani . Li. 3. Hares . 59. Contra Collyridian . Christus dixit , Quid mihi , & tibi est Mulier ? Non dum venit hora mea . Qu● non putarent aliqui , magis eximiam esse Sanctam Virginem , Mulierem eam appellauit : veluti prophetans , quae essent futura in terra Sectarum & Haerese●n genera : vt ne aliqui nimiùm admirati Sanctam , in hanc Haeresim , eiusque deliramenta dilabantur . Est enim Ludibrium tota res , & anicularum fabula , & , vt ita dicam , tota Haeresis tractatio : Christe saide vnto his Mother , Woman , what haue I to doo with thee ? My houre is not yet comme . Left any man should thinke , Our Lady was of greatter excellencie . he called her Woman : as it were prophesieing of the Kindes , and Sectes of Heresies . that were to comme in the world : Lest any man hauinge too great opinion of that Holy Saincte , should fal into this Heresie , and into the dotage of the same . For in dede the whole materis but a mockerie , and an Olde Wiues tale , and soothely to saie , nothinge els , but the handelinge of an Heresie . Origen . in Lucam , Homil 25. Origen hereof saithe , Si mensuram transcenderit Charitatis , & qui diligit , & qui diligitur , in Peccato est : If Loue passe the measure of charitie , as wel he , that Loueth , as also he , that is Loued , is in Sinne .

But touchinge the mater it selfe , Ambros . ad Roma . Cap. 1. S. Ambrose saithe , Ide● ad Reges itur per Tribunos , & Comites : quia Homo vtique est Rex : & nescit , quibus debeat Rempublicam credere . Ad Deum autem , quem nihil later , Omnium enim Merita nouit , Promerendum , suffragatore non est Opus , sed mente deuota . Vbicunque enim talis loquutus fuerit ei , respondebit illi : Therefore wee are brought vnto the presence of Kinges by Lordes , and Officers : Bicause the Kinge is a Man , and knoweth not , to whom he maie committe his Realme . But to obtaine Goddes fauoure , from whom nothinge is secrete , as knowinge , what euery man is meete to haue , we neede no spokesman , but a deuoute minde . For , where so euer sutche a one speaketh vnto God , God wil answeare him .

The Apologie , Cap. 19. Diuision . 1.

Wee saie also , that euery person is borne in Sinne , and leadeth his life in Sinne : that no body is able truely to saie , his harte is cleane . That the moste righteous person is but an vnprofitable seruaunte : That the Lawe of God is perfite , and requireth of vs perfite , and ful obedience : That wee are able by no meanes to fulfil that Lawe in this worldly life : That there is no one mortal Creature , whiche can be iustified by his owne desertes in Gods sight : And therefore that our onely succour , and refuge is to flie to the Mercie of Our Father by Iesu Christe , & assuredly to perswade our mindes , that he is the obteiner of forgeuenesse for our sinnes : And that by his Bloude al our spottes of Sinne be wasshed cleane : That he hath pacified and set at one al thinges by the Bloude of his Crosse : That he by the same One onely Sacrifice , whiche he once offered vpon the Crosse , hathe brought to effecte , and fulfilled al thinges , & , that for the cause he said , when he gaue vp the Ghoste , It is finished , as though he woulde signifie , that the price , and ransomme was nowe ful paide for the Sinne of al Mankinde . If there be any , that thinke this Sacrifice not sufficient , let them goe in Goddes name , & seeke a better . Wee verily , bicause wee knowe this to be the Onely Sacrifice , are wel contente with it alone , and looke for none other : and , forasmutche as it was to be offered but Once , we commaunde it not to be renewed againe : and , bicause it was ful & perfite in al pointes , and partes , we doo not ordeine in place thereof any continual succession of offeringes .

M. Hardinge .

Ye make a Sophistical argumente , when ye teache , because the Lawe of God requireth of vs ful obedience , that therefore it cannot be satisfied in this life by any meanes . For when ye saie , it requireth of vs ful obedience , if ye meane ‡ ‡ A vaine folie . For Gods Lawe was written for Men in Earth , not for Angels in Heauen . suche ful obedience , as is required onely in this life , then conclude ye falsely , that wee can by no meanes satisfie it . But if ye meane suche ful obedience , ‡ as is onely perfourmed in Heauen , then ye conclude wel , that wee in this life cannot fulfil suche perfection , as is required in Heauen . But then haue ye saide nothinge to the purpose . For wee knowe , God commaundeth not that whiche is impossible to a man in grace . what marke ye shoote at , by your Doctrine vttered in other places . Your meaninge is * * A horrible heresie . S. Augustine saithe , Deus iubet aliquae , quae non possumus facere . that no man in this Life is able by the Grace of God to fulfil the Commaundementes . Wee beleeue , God commaundeth vs nothinge impossible to vs . ‡ ‡ A fonde question For God punisheth Infantes for theire Original Sinne : yet are theie by no meanes hable to avoide it . Otherwise howe coulde he iustly punishe for not doinge that commaundemente , whiche by no meanes wee were able to fulfil ? Wee are sure that God punisheth noman vniustly : for , Non est apud dominum Deum nostrum iniquitas : There is no iniquitie in Our Lorde God .

Moises speakinge of the fulfillinge of the Commaundementes of God , Deut. 30. Rom. 10. whiche also S. Paule repeteth , saithe that they are not aboue vs in Heauen , neither farre from vs beyonde the Sea : but harde by thee ( saithe he ) is his woorde in thy mouthe and in thy harte , that thou maiste doo it . And Christe saithe , Matthae . n. 1. Iohn . 5. Iugum meum suaue est , & onus meum leue : * * The cause hereof is Gods Mercie S. Augustine saithe , Omniae mandata facta deputantur , quando quicquid non factum est , ignoscitur . My Yoke is sweete , and my burden light : and S. Iohn , His Commaundementes be not heauie . He then , that saithe , we can by no meanes fulfil the Lawe of God , maketh * * Vntruthe . For we make not god Vniuste : but we Confesse our selues to be finners . God vniust , and euil , or impotent , and not able to geue so mutche grace , as maie helpe to fulfil his Lawe . Let the discrete reader iudge , what blasphemie your woordes conteine . Belye vs nomore hereafter . This is our Doctrine . better founded in the worde of God , and in the Tradition of the Apostles , and in the custome of the whole Churche , then that ye shal euer be able to ouerthrowe it . Blaspheme , and barke againste it ye maie : ouercome it ye cannot .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Al other thinges here by you touched , M. Hardinge , I wil passe ouer : thinkinge it sufficient , to note a fewe woordes of the possibilitie , and perfourmance of the Lawe : and so mutche the more , for that ye seeme therein in somme parte , to renewe the Pelagian Heretiques Olde condemned erroure .

As touchinge that ful and perfite Obedience , that is required of vs by the Lawe , ye answeare , there are sundrie sortes of Perfection : namely , that there is Perfection in Children : Perfection in Menne : Perfection in Angels : and Perfection , in God . And further ye saie , that in this life wee cannot fulfil sutche Perfection , as is required of the Angels of God in Heauen . And this answeare ye make , touchinge the Obedience , and perfourminge of the Lawe : As if ye would saie , The Lawe of God was geeuen to Angels : and is to be perfourmed , not in the Earth , but Onely in Heauen : And , as if God had said to those Blessed Sprites , Thou shalt not Kil : Thou shalt not commit aduouterie : Thou shalt not steale : Thou shalt not couete , &c.

In your sundrie Perfections , of Children , Menne , Angels , and God , I haue no skil . The Apologie meante onely of that Perfection , that is required in Man . How be it , in euery kinde they saie , Perfectum est , cui nihil deest : That thinge is Perfite , that is ful , and absolute , and wanteth nothinge .

And here , leste ye shoulde deceiue your selfe by wronge measure , God him selfe hathe shewed you , Deuter. 6. Matthae . 22. Deuter. 17. Deuteron . 27. Calat . 3. Iacob . 2. Matthae . 5. what Perfection he requireth . Thus he saithe , Thou shalt loue the Lorde thy God with al thy Harte , with al thy Soule , with al thy Power : Ye shal not turne , neither to the Right hand , nor to the Lefte : Accursed is he , that standeth not in euery thinge , that is written in the Lawe , to perfourme the same . And S. Iames saithe , Who so offendeth in one Commaundemente , is guilty of al. And Christe saithe , Be ye Perfite ( not measuring your selues by your owne habilitie , but ) as your Father is Perfite , whiche is in Heauen . And yet hereby he meaneth not the Perfection , that is in God , and his Angels , but onely that Perfection , that is required in Man .

S. Hierome saithe , The Pelagian Heretiques in Olde times vsed the same shiftes , that you vse nowe . For where as the Catholique Learned Fathers saide , Noman is Perfite , and voide of Sinne , they answeared then euen in sutche sorte , as you doo nowe , Hieronym . ad C●esiphons . contra Pelagianos . Noman is Perfite in sutche degree of Perfection , as God is Perfite . S. Hieromes woordes be these , Aiunt , ad Comparationem Dei , nullum esse Perfectum : Possibilitie of the Lawe . Quasi Scriptura hoc dixerit : They saie ( euen as you , M. Hardinge , saie ) that in Comparison of God , noman is Perfite : As though this were the saieinge of the Scriptures . And therefore he saithe vnto them , Nunquid Praecepit mihi Deus , vt essem , quod Deus est ? Vt nihil inter me esset , & Dominum Creatorem ? Vt maior essem Angelorum fastigio ? Vt haberem , quod Angeli non habent ? I beseeche you , hathe God Commaunded me , that I shoulde bee the same , that God is ? That there shoulde be no difference ( in Perfection ) bitweene me , and my Lorde the Creatoure ? That I shoulde be aboue the Highnesse of Angels ? Or that I shoulde haue , that the Angels haue not ? It was in vaine therefore , M. Hardinge , thus to borrowe the Pelagians Weapons , and to make mater of this Perfection . For wee speake not of Angels , but onely of Menne .

Further , tointreate of the Perfite fulfillinge , and accomplisshinge of the Lawe , I meane , so farre as the Lawe requirethe , the Pelagian Heretiques herein also saide , Augustin . De ●●ati . & libero Arbitr . Cap. 4. euen as you saie : and none otherwise . S. Augustine thereof reporteth thus : Magnum aliquid Pelagiani se scire putam , quando dicunt , Non iuberet Deus , quod Sciret ab homine non posse fieri . Quis hoc nesciat ? Sed ide● iubet aliqua , quae non possumus , vt nouerimus , quid ab ipso petere debeamus : The Pelagians thinke them selues Cunninge menne , when they saie , God woulde not commaunde that thinge , that he knoweth , a man is not hable to doo . And who is there , that knoweth not this ? But therefore God Commaundeth vs to doo somme thinges , that wee are not hable to doo , that wee maie vnderstande , what wee ought to craue of him .

S. Hierome saithe vnto one of the same Pelagians , Hieronym . ad Ctesiphont . contra Pelagianos . Facilia esse dicis Dei mandata : & tamen nullum proferre potes , qui vniuersa compleuerit : Ye saie , Goddes Commaundementes be easy : And yet ye are hable to shewe vs noman , that euer fulfilled them al togeather .

Therefore againe he saithe vnto them , Hieronym . contra Pelagianos . li. 1. Noli ponere in Coelum os tuum , vt per Esse , & Esse posse , stultorum auribus illudas . Quis enim tibi concedit , posse hominem facere , quod nullus vnquam hominum potuerit ? Sette not thy face againste Heauen , to mocke fooles eares with these woordes , Be , and Can be . For who wil graunte you , that a man can doo that thinge , that noman euer was hable to doo ?

Likewise S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . De Spiritu , & Litera , Cap. 1. Dixi fieri posse , vt sit homo sine peccato , si Voluntas ei non desit , ope Diuina adiuuante : Sed tamen Praeter Vnum , in quo omnes uiuificabuntur , neminem vel fuisse , vel fore , in quo hîc viuente esset ista Perfectio : I saide , It is possible , that a man maie bee without Sinne , if he wante not wil , the Power of God assistinge him : And yet I saide , that bisides Onely Christe , in whom al menne shal be quickened to Life , there was neuer man , nor neuer shal be , who beinge in this life , shal haue this Perfection . S. Augustine saithe , Noman can atteine to this Perfection : and he speaketh of the Perfection , that is required , not of Angels , but of Menne .

Ye wil saie , as the Pelagians did , wherefore then doothe Christe saie , Be ye Perfite ? Matthae . 5. Philip. 3. Hieronym . Aduersus Pelagian Lib. 1. Wherefore doothe S. Paule saie , As many of vs , as be Perfite ? &c. Hereto S. Hierome answeareth thus : Quid ergo sapimus ? imo quid sapere debemus , qui Perfecti non sumus ? Imperfectos nos esse Confiteri , & nondum comprehendisse , nec dun acccepisse . Haec est hominis vera Sapientia , imperfectum esse se nosse . Atque , vt ita loquar , Cunctorum in Carne Iustorum Imperfecta Perfectio est : What then doo wee thinke , or what ought wee to thinke , that be not Perfite ? Wee ought to Confesse , that wee are Vnperfite , and that wee haue not yet gotten , nor taken ( that Perfection ) that is required . This is the true wisedome of a Man , to knowe him selfe to be Vnperfite . And , as I might saie , the Perfection of al Iuste menne liuinge in the Pleashe is Vnperfite . Vnperfite Perfection . Againe he saithe , Iusti appellantur , non quòd omni Vitio careant , Hieronym ad C●esiphont . Augustin . ad Bonifacium Li 3. Cap. 7. sed quòd Maiori parte Virtutum commendentur : They are called Juste menne , not for that they be voide of al manner Sinne , but for that they are furnisshed with the greatter parte of Vertues . So likewise saithe S. Augustine , Virtus , quae nunc est in homine Iusto , hactenus Perfecta nominatur , vt ad eius Perfectionem pertineat etiam ipsius Imperfectionis , & in Veritate agnitio , & in humilitate Confessio : The Vertue , that is nowe in a iuste man , so farre foorthe is called Perfite , that it perteineth to the Perfection thereof , bothe in truthe to knowe , and in humilitie to Confesse , that it is Vnperfite . Againe he saithe , Omnia mandata facta deputantur , Augustin . Retracta . li. 1. ca. 19. Augustin . De Spiritu , & Litera , Cap. 35. quando , quicquid non fit , ignoscitur : Al the Commaundementes of God are accoumpted to be donne , when that thinge , that is not downe , is forgeeuen . To conclude , he saithe , Multùm in hac vita ille profecit , qui quàm longè sit à Perfectione Iustitiae , proficiendo cognouit : He hathe mutche profited in this life , that by his profitinge hathe learned , howe farre he is from the Perfection of Righteousenesse .

Yet neuerthelesse wee maie truely vse S. Hieromes woordes , vttered in the defence , and right of this same cause : Haec dicentes , non adulamur vitijs : sed Authoriratem sequimur Scripturarum , Hieronymus . ad A●gasiam . quòd nullus homo sit absque Peccato . Sed conclusit Deus omnia sub Peccato , vt Omnium misereatur : Notwithstandinge we saie thus , yet wee flatter not Vices : but wee folowe the Authoritie of the Scriptures , that there is nothinge without Sinne . But God hathe shutte vp al thinges vnder Sinne , that he maie haue Mercie of Al. Hieronym . in Ezechiel . li. 14. Cap. 46. Againe he saithe , Perspicuum est , omnem hominem , quamuis ad Perfectionem venerit , tamen indigere Misericordia Dei : & plenam Perfectionem ex Gratia , non ex Merito possidere : It is moste certaine , that euery man , yea although hee be growen to Perfection , yet needeth the Mercie of God : and that he enioieth ful Perfection , not of his owne Deseruinge , but of Grace .

Euen so S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . De Ciuita Lib 19. Cap. 27. Ipsa Iustitia nostra tanta est in hac vita , vt potius peccatorum Remissione constet , quàm Perfectione Virtutum : Our very Righteousenesse it selfe is so greete in this Life , that it standeth rather in Forgeeuenesse of Our Sinnes , then in Perfection of Righteousenesse .

The Apologie , Cap. 20. Diuision . 1.

Bisides , though wee saie , wee haue no meede at al by our owne woorkes , and deedes , but appointe al the meanes of Our Saluation to be in Christe alone , yet saie we not , that for this cause menne ought to liue loosely , and dissolutely : nor that it is yenough for a Christian , to be Baptized onely , and to Beleeue : as though there were nothinge els required at his hande . For True Faithe is liuely , and can in no wise be idle . Thus therefore teache wee the people , that God hathe called vs , not to folowe riot , and wantonnesse , but , as S. Paule saithe , vnto good woorkes , to walke in them : That we are deliuered from the Power of Darkenesse , to the end that wee shoulde serue the Liuinge God : to cutte awaie al the remnauntes of Sinne , and to woorke Our Saluation in feare , and tremblinge : that it maie appeare , that the Sprite of Sanctification is in Our Bodies , and that Christe him selfe dwelleth in Our Hartes .

M. Hardinge .

With what face can these Defenders affirme , Merite , and Mercie . that they teache the people to walke in good woorkes , whereas beginninge the treatise of woorkes in this presente Apologie , they saie , that wee haue * * No aide or helpe vnto Saluation . Otherwise this report is Vntrue . no helpe , or aide in our woorkes , and deedes ? For so their Latine woorde Praesidium doothe signifie , whiche in the Englishe , is tourned into Meede . What , Maisters , is this the waie to make menne woorke wel , to tel them before hande , that their woorkes be nothing worth , and that they helpe them neuer a whitte ? Why then let the Labourers Prouerbe take place , I had rather plaie for nothinge , then woorke for nothinge . ‡ ‡ Nazianzen . Si mercenarius es , tantùm expecta mercedem . De Sancto Baptism . Is there any Labourer so madde , as to woorke for nothinge ? Firste ye tell the Labourers , that there is no helpe for them in their woorkes , and then ye crie vnto them to laboure : * * Is not this a folie , M Hard. Goddes Truthe is no mockerie . yea forsoothe , as harde as thei liste . Is not this to mocke God and the worlde ? Whereas ye speake to Christian menne , to those that be Baptized , to suche as haue Faithe : Yet ye tel them , they maie woorke as mutche , as they wil , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For we : saie with S. Paule , your woorkes shal not be in vaine in the Lorde . but al in vaine , &c. Ergo then , although a liuely Faithe cannot be idle , and somme true Faithe is liuely , yet in an other sense . * * Vntruthe . Reade the answeare . there is a true Faithe whiche is not liuely , but idle . Whiche true Faithe shal become liuely and haue great aide in woorkes , if it wel learne to leaue idlenesse , and practise that in will and harte , whiche it beleeueth in vnderstandinge .

But whereas these Defenders woulde no helpe or aide to be in Christian mennes woorkes , that ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For it is no Heresie : it is the Faithe of Christ . Reade the Answeare . Heresie maie not so escape . That good woorkes helpe vs . Matthae . 19. Christe beinge demaunded of one , what good he shoulde doo to obteine Euerlastinge life , saide : If thou wilte enter into Life , keepe the Commaundementes . To keepe the Commaundementes is a woorke : to enter into Life is somme helpe to a man . Therefore it is falsely spoken , that in our woorkes there is no helpe for vs . Againe , Christe saithe , Who so euer forsaketh his house , or brothers , or sisters , or father , or mother , or wife , or children , or landes for my sake , be shal receiue an hundred folde , and shal inherite Life Euerlastinge . S. Paule saithe , God wil render to euery man accordinge to his woorke . To those that seeke for glorie , and honour , and incorruption , accordinge to the sufferance of good woorkes , ( he wil render ) Life Euerlastinge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here ye trifle , M. Hardinge , although not mutche bisides your common woonte , yet sommewhat aboue your ordinarie . Our Doctrine herein is grounded vpon these woordes of Christe , Luc. 17. When ye haue donne al , saie , that ye be vnprofitable ▪ Seruauntes , and therefore haue deserued nothinge . In deede , of late yeeres this hath ben the General Doctrine of your Scholes : Vita Aeterna est Merces debita pro nostris Meritis : Vita Aeterna , nisi esset Merces debita , esset incerta . Quia debitum certum est : Misericordia incerta : Euerlastinge Life is a rewarde dewe for our deseruinges . If Euerlastinge Life were not a dewe rewarde , it were vncertaine . For dewe debte is certaine : Mercie , or sauoure is Vncertaine . Thus haue you vtterly drowned the Grace of God , and the Saluation that we haue onely in Iesu Christe : and haue turned the most Comfortable Doctrine of the Gospel into a doungeon of Desperation .

Then , Gregori . Nazian. De Sancto Baptismate . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . saie you , Lette the Labourers Prouerbe take place , I had rather plate for nothinge , then woorke for nothinge . Verily , M. Hardinge , when other reason coulde not serue you , it was reason , your Labourers idle reason shoulde take place . Howe be it , if ye wil doo nothinge at Goddes requeste , of good wil , without rewarde , but muste be hyered onely for your Penny , then maie your Labourer , be he neuer so simple , easily tel you , ye are not the Childe of God , but onely a Hyrelinge , and a Labourer . For the Natural louinge Childe wil Obey his Father , not for rewarde , but of loue , onely bicause hee is his Father .

Gregorie Nazianzene saithe , Si Seruus es , time plagas : Si mercenarius , tantum specta Mercedem . At , si supra hos es etiam Filius , reuerere tanquam Patrem tuum . Bene facito , quia pulchrum est obsequi Patri . Et , quamuis nihil aliud futurum sit , Merite , and Mercie . tamen vel hoc ipsum erit Merces tua fecisse quod gratum esset Patri : If thou be a bonde Slaue , then feare the whippe : If thou be a Hyrelinge , then looke onely for thy rewarde : But ouer , and bisides these , If thou be a ( Natural ) Childe , then reuerence ( GOD ) as thy Father . Doo wel , bicause it is good to Obey thy Father . Yea , and although thou shalt haue nothinge els , yet euen this shal be thy rewarde , that thou haste benne Obediente to thy Father .

S. Hilarie saithe , Hilari . in Psalm . 118. Nos , si semel ieiunamus , satisfecisse nos arbitramur : Si aliquid ex horreo domesticarum facultatum inopi damus , implenisse nos iustitiam credimus , &c. Sed Propheta totum à Deo sperat : totum à Misericordia eius expectat : If wee faste once , wee thinke , wee haue satisfied : If out of the barnes of Our housholde stoare wee geeue sommewhat to the Poore , wee beleeue , wee haue fulfilled the measure of Righteousenesse . But the Prophete hopeth al of God : and trusteth al of his Mercie . Christe saithe to his Disciples , Matthae . 5. Augustin . Confession . Let your Light so shine before menne ( not that ye maie be rewarded , but ) that they maie see your good woorkes , and glorifie yur Father , whiche is in Heauen . S. Augustine saithe , Minùs diligit te , qui diligit aliud praeter te : O God , Basil . in Psal. 32. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . he the lesse loueth thee , that loueth any other thinge , bisides thee . Likewise S. Basile saithe , Qui non fidit suis rectè factis , nec expectat ex operibus iustificari , Solam habet spem salutis , Misericordias Dei : He that trusteth not to his owne good deedes , nor hopeth to be iustified by his woorkes , hathe the Onely hope of his Saluation , the Mercies of God .

Further ye saie , A true Faithe maie be idle , and vtterly without woorkes : & therefore ye thinke it not true , that wee saie , A true Faithe is Liuely , and can in no wise be idle . Here perhaps ye wil set Faithe vpon the Laste , and Racke her to a larger ●ise . For so Latomus , one of your Felowes , saithe , that Socrates , and Plato , and other Heathen Philosophers had as good vnderstandinge , and Faithe in Christe , as had Abraham . And Andradius , an other of your Felowes , saithe , that the Heathen , and Infidel Philosophers had the Righteousnesse of Faithe , and Euerlasting Life . Illyricus De Sectis Pag 93. Kemnitius in examine Trident . Concilij . Pag. 535. Copus Dialo . 1. Pag. 51. His wordes be these , Philosophi , qui ab inani Deorum multitudine abhorruerunt , &c. illos tu illa Fide , Deique cognitione destitutos dices , per quam , scilicet , impius iustificatur , & ex qua iustus viuit ? The Philosophers , that abhorred , and shunned the vaine multitude of Goddes , &c. wilte thou saie , they lacked that Faithe , and that knowledge of God , whereby the wicked is iustified , and whereby the Righteouse liueth ? An other or your neare Felowes saith , Petrus , non Fidem Christi , sed Christum , Salua Fide , negauit : Peter denied , not the Faithe of Christe : but he denied Christe , his Faithe neuerthelesse beinge safe . If ye cal this True Faithe , M. Hardinge , that maie be founde in Heathens , and Infidels , and maie wel , and safely stande with the abiuringe of Christe , then , without question , your True Faithe maie be without good woorkes . 1. Timothe . 5. Fidem abnegauit . But S. Paule , whose woordes wee ought rather to credite , saithe farre otherwise : He , that hathe no regarde to his owne , specially sutche , as bee of his housholde , hathe denied the Faithe , and is woorse , then an Infidel . Againe he saithe : Tit. 1 1. Iohn 2. Iacob . 2. They saie , they knowe God : but by theire woorkes they denie God . S. Iohn saithe , Who so saithe , hee knoweth God , and keepeth not his Commaundementes , is a lyer , and the Truthe is not in him . S. Iames saithe , Faithe without woorkes is deade : And the Diuel beleeueth , and tremblethe for feare . But a Deade Faithe is nomore a True perfite Faithe , then a Deade man is a True perfite Man . As for the Faithe of Diuels , in deede , and verily it is no Faithe .

Certainely S. Augustine saithe , Augustin in Euangel. Iohan. Sermo 61. Augustin . De Fide & Operib . Cap. 23. Qui Fidem habet sine spe , & dilectione , Christum esse credit : non in Christum credit : He that hathe Faithe without Hope , and Charitie , Beleueth , that there is Christe : but hee Beleueth not in Christe . Againe he saithe , Inseparabilis est Bona uita à Fide , quae per Dilectionem operatur : imò verò ea ipsa est bona vita : Good Life can neuer be diuided from Faithe , whiche woorketh by Loue : Naie rather that same very Faithe it selfe is good Life , S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . Li. 6. Epist. 36. Vbi quis coeperit luxuriari , incipit deuiare à vera Fide : As soone as a man beginneth to liue wantonly , he beginneth to flee from the True Faithe . Origen saithe , Origen . in Epist. ad Roman . Li. 8. Cap. 10. Omnis , qui credit in cum , non crubescit . Erubescit autem Omnis , qui peccat : Ergo , qui adhuc ruborem peccati incurrit , credere non videtur : Who so euer Beleeueth in God , blussheth not : But euery man blussheth , that woorketh Sinne : Therefore he , that yet blussheth for his Sinne , Origen in Ezechiel . Homil. 9. seemeth not to Beleeue . Againe he saithe , Malè credit , quicunque peccat : Who so euer sinneth , Beleeueth il .

To be shorte , S. Cyprian saithe , Quomodo dicit , se credere in Christum , qui non facit , quod Christus facere praecepit ? Howe doothe hee saie , He Beleeueth in Christe , that doothe not the thinge , that Christe Commaunded ?

Hereby it is plaine , that True Faithe is liuely , and woorkeful : and , that an Idle Faithe is in deede no Faithe at al.

But you saie , Good Woorkes haue theire rewarde : and therefore , ye saie , This Heresie maie not so esc●pe . Whether Good Woorkes shal be rewarded , or no , it was no parte of Our question . For wee vndoubtedly beleue the wordes , that are written by S. Iohn , Apocalyp . 14. Matthae . 10. Opera illorum sequuntur illos : Theire Woorkes folowe after them : Wee beleeue the woordes , that Christe saithe to his Disciples , He , that geeueth a Cuppe of colde Water to any of these litle Ones for my sake , shal not lose his rewarde . We beleeue that , 1. Corin. 15. that S. Paule saithe , Your Woorke shal not be in vaine in the Lorde . Wee graunte , Good Woorkes haue theire Rewarde : But the same Rewarde standeth in Mercie , and Fauoure , and not in Dewtie .

Thus therefore we saie , Consideringe the weakenesse , and sinful corruption of Our Nature , there can be no Woorkes in vs so pure , and perfite , that we maie thereby of right , and of dewtie deserue Euerlastinge Life . And this , M. Hardinge , is no Heresie , but the very plaine Sense , and Substance of Goddes Woorde , and the vndoubted Doctrine of the Anciente Catholique Fathers of the Churche .

Iob saithe , Iob 9. Si Homo velit contendere cum Deo , non poterit ei respondere vnum pro mille : If a man wil dispute with God , he is not hable to answeare him one for a thousande . And therefore he saithe , Verebar omnia Opera mea : I stoode in doubte , and was afraide of al my Woorkes . Iob. 9. Againe he saithe , Although ● were perfite , yet my soule shal not know it : Esai . 64. If I woulde iustifie mee selfe , myne owne Mouthe shal condemne me . The Prōphete Esai saithe , Al our Righteousenesse is like a fowle stained clowte .

Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Augustine . De Tempore , Sermo. 49. Non intres in Iudicium cum Seruo tuo . Quid est , Non intres in iudicium cum Seruo tuo ? Non stes mecum in iudicio , exigendo a me omnia quae praecepisti , & omnia , quae iussisti . Nam me inuenies reum , ●i in iudicium intraueris mecum . Opus ergo est Misericordia tua , potiùs , quàm liquidissimo iudicio tuo : O Lorde , enter not into iudgemente with thy Seruaunte . What meaneth that , Enter not into iudgemente with thy Seruaunte ? Thus mutche it meaneth : Stande not with me in iudgemente , requiringe of me al that thou haste commaunded . For if thou enter into iudgemente with me , thou shalt finde me guilty . I haue neede therefore , not of thy vpright Iudgemente , Augustin . Epist. 52. ad Mac●don . but of thy Mercie . Againe he saithe , Merita quorumlibet hominum quae sunt ? Quandoquidem ille , qui non cum Mercede debita , sed cum gratuita Gratia venit , Omnes peccatores , solus à peccato liber , & liberator , inueuit : What be the Merites of any menne ? For Christe that came , not with his dewe rewarde , but with his Grace , that was not dewe , founde al menne sinners , being him selfe onely free from sinne , Augustin . De Spiritu , & Litera . Cap. 33. and a deliuerer of Sinners . Againe hee saithe , Coronat te in Misericordia , & Miserationibus . Hoc fiet in iudicio : vbi cùm Rex iustus sederit in thro●o , redditurus vnicuique secundum opera eius , quis gloriabitur , castum se habere Cor ? Aut quis gloriabitur , mundum se esse à peccatis ? Ideò illie necessarium fuit commemorare Miserationem , & Misericordiam Domini , &c. God crowneth with Fauour and Mercie . That shal be doune in the laste iudgemente : where as , when the Juste Kinge shal sit in his Throne , to render to euery man accordinge to his woorkes , who shal boaste , that his harte is chaste ? Or who shal boaste , that be is cleane from Sinne ? Therefore it was needeful to make mention of the Pitie , and Mercie of Our Lorde . And againe , Augustin . in Psalm . 137. Opera manuum mearum non Commendo . Timeo enim , ne cùm inspexeris , plura inuenias peccata , quàm Merita : Lorde , I commende not the woorkes of my handes . For I am afraide , leste , when thou shalte beholde them , thou shalt finde moe sinnes , then good deseruinges .

So saithe S. Hierome , Hieronym . in Esai . Cap. 64. Origen . ad Roma . Li. 4 Cap. 4. Origen . in Matt. tracta. 8. Si consideremus nostra Merita , desperandum est : If wee beholde our owne Merites , wee muste be driuen to desperation .

So saithe Origen , Ego vix mihi persuadeo , vllum opus esse posse , quod ex debito remunerationem deposcat : I doo scarcely beleue , that there can be any woorke , that maie of dewtie require rewarde . Againe he saithe , Dicite , vos esse Seruos inutiles . Nam etsi Omnia fecerimus , quae praecepta sunt , non tamen bonum aliquod fecimus . Nec enim , si verè bona essent , essemus inutiles . Omne autem bonum nostrum , non propriè , sed abusiuè bonum dicitur : Saie ye ( saithe Christe ) that ye be vnprofitable Seruauntes . For notwithstandinge wee haue donne al thinges , that are commaunded . yet haue we donne no good thinge . For , if our dooinges were good in deede , then were wee not vnprofitable . But any good deede of oures is called good , not rightly , or dewly , Augustin . in Psalm 94. Walden . contra Wiclefum . but by abuse of speache . So saith S. Augustine , Si Deus vellet pro Meritis agere , non inueniret , nisi quod damnaret : If God would deale with vs according to that we haue deserued , be shoulde finde nothinge , but that he might condemne . Therefore , M. Hardinge , Waldensis , one of your greate Doctours , hauinge wel , & circumspectely weighed the mater of euery side , at the laste concludeth thus , Quid dignum facimus , Roman. 8. vt participes Coelestibus fieri inueniamur ? Apostolo dicente , Existimo , quòd non sunt condignae passiones huius temporis ad futuram gloriam , quae reuelabitur in nobis : Reputo igitur saniorem Theologum , fideliorem Catholicum , & Scripturia Sanctis magis concordem , qui tale Meritum simpliciter abnegat : What woorthy thinge doo wee , that wee maie be founde in the Felowshippe of the Heauenly Sprites ? The Apostle saithe , I Judge , that the afflictions of this time are not woorthy of that Glorie , that shal be reueled in vs . Therefore I take him to be the ●ounder Diuine , the Faithefuller Catholique , and more agreeable to the Holy Scriptures , that vtterly denieth al sutche kinde of Merite .

But ye wil saie , If wée finde Our selues voide of Merite , howe then shal wee stand , Apocalyp 22. and be iustified before God ? S. Iohn saithe , Blessed are they , that haue wasshed theire Roabes ( not in theire owne Merites , but ) in the Bloude of the Lambe . Apocalyp. 21. And God saithe , I wil geeue the thirsty to Drinke of the Wel of Life ( not for his Desertes , but ) for nothinge .

The Ancient Father Origen saith , Origen ad Roman . Li. 9. ca. 12. Quia Omnia conclusa sunt sub peccato , nunc non in Meritis , sed in Misericordia Dei Salus Humana Consistit : For as mutche as al menne are shutte vp , and Closed vnder Sinne , nowe the Saluation of Man standeth , not in mans Merites , but in Goddes Mercie .

S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . Epist. 105. ad Sixtum . Deus in fine Coronabit nos in Misericordia , & Miserationibus : God in the ende wil crowne vs ( not with the price of our deseruinges , but ) with Fauour , and Mercies .

Againe he saithe , Augustin De Verbis Apostoli , Sermo. 15. Pro nihilo saluos facies eos . Quid est , Pro nihilo saluos facies eos ? Nihil in eis inuenis , vnde salues : & tamen saluas . Quia nihil inuenis , vnde salues : & multum inuenis , vnde damnes : For Nothinge thou shalt saue them . What is meante by these worde , For Nothing thou shalt saue them ? ( This is the meaninge ) Thou findeste Nothinge in them , wherefore thou shouldest saue them : and yet thou sauest them . Thou findest nothinge , wherefore thou shouldeste saue them : but thou findest mutche , wherfore thou shouldest condemne them : And againe , Omnes in Mortem poena debita praecipites ageret , Augustin . De Ciuitate . Li. 14. Cap. 1. nisi inde quosdam indebita Dei Gratia liberaret : Deserued paine woulde throwe al menne into Deathe , onlesse the Vndeserued Grace of God deliuered somme frome it .

S. Basile saithe , Basil . in Psal. 32. Non erit Iudicium sine Misericordia : Quia non potest homo purus inueniti à sorde : ne si vnus quidem tantùm dies sit ab eius natali : Iudgement shal not be without mercie : For noman can be founde pure , and cleane from al filthe : no , though he be but one daie olde . Basil . De Humilitate . Againe he saithe , Haec est nostra integra , & perfecta gloriatio in Deo , quando propriae Iustitiae nos inopes agnoscimus : Sola autem Fide in Christum Iustificari : This is oure ful , and perfite reioicing in God , when we acknowledge , that wee are voide of any Our owne Righteousenesse , and are Iustified by Onely Faithe in Christe . So saithe S. Hierome , In Christo Iesu Domino nostro : in quo habemus fiduciam , Hieron . in Epist. ad Ephes. cap. 3. & accessum , & confidenttiam per Fidem eius : non per nostram Iustitiam , sed per eum , cuius Fide nobis peccata dimittuntur : In Christe Jesu Our Lorde : in whom wee haue boldenesse , and libertie to comme ( to God ) , and truste , and affiance by the Faithe of him : not through Our Righteousenesse , but through him , in whose name Our Sinnes be forgeuen .

Hereof S. Bernarde in moste godly , Bernard . in Psal. Qui habitat . and comfortable wise concludeth thus , Meritum meum . Miserationes Domini . Non sum ego inops Meriti , quam diu ille non est inops Miserationum . Si Miserationes eius multae , multus ego sum in Meritis . Hoc totum est Hominis Meritum , si totam spem suam ponat in Domino : My Merite is the Mercie of God . So longe as God is not poore of Mercie , so longe cannot I be poore of Merite . If his Mercies be greate , then am I great in Merites . This is the whole Merite of Man , if he put his whole affiance in the Lorde .

This is these Defenders Horrible Heresie , M. Hardinge , whiche , you saie , mought not so escape your handed .

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 1.

To conclude , we Beleue , that this our selfe same Fleashe , wherein we liue , although it die , and comme to duste , yet at the laste shal returne againe to Life , by the meanes of Christes Sprite , whiche dwelleth in vs : and that then verily , whatsoeuer we suffer here in the meane while for his sake , Christe wil wipe awaie al teares , and heauinesse from our eies : and that we through him shal enioie Euerlastinge Life , and shal for euer be with him in Glorie . So be it .

M. Hardinge .

Last of al , beleue ( as ye saie ) that this very Fleashe shal returne to Life , and that for the Spirite of Christe , whiche dwelleth in vs . There is no doubte but the Spirite of Christe is sufficient to raise vp their bodies , in whom it dwelleth . But wee saie , that the raising of our Fleashe is also assigned in Holy Scripture * * Vntruthe . For so the Fathers of the Old Lawe and al Christan Infantes shoulde be vtterly excluded from Resurrection . to the Real , and Substantial eatinge of Christes Fleashe , because it is written : He that eateth my Fleashe , and drinketh my Bloude , hathe Life Euerlastinge . And I wil raise him againe in the laste daie . Therefore the Resurrection of the Fleashe is not onely assigned in Holy Scripture to the Spirite of Christe , but also to the woorthy eatinge of his Fleashe . And thus we haue confuted the Doctrine , wherein ye declare your Faithe : and the chiefe groundes , whereon ye buylde your New Gospel , we haue disproued .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The woordes , The cause of Resurrection . wherein ye finde faulte , M. Hardinge , are not oures , but S. Paules . If they be false , why did he write them ? If they be true , why doo you blame them ? Here ye seeme to checke S. Paule , and not onely vs . Ye saie , The raising of our Fleash is also assigned in the Holy Scripture to the Realle , and Substantial Eating of Christes Fleashe . But whence had ye these woordes , M. Hardinge ? Where founde ye these Scriptures ? Dissemble no longer : Deale plainely & simply : It is Gods cause . For a shewe , Iohn 6. ye allege these woordes of Christe , written by S. Iohn : He that Eateth my Fleashe , and Drinketh my Bloude , hathe Life Euerlastinge : And I wil raise him vp againe in the laste daie . These woordes wée knowe : and the Eatinge of Christes Fleashe we know : But where is your Real , and Substantial , and Carnal Eatinge ? Where did S. Iohn euer tel you , that Christes Body is Eaten with Teethe , and conueied further in sutche grosse , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta . 25. Idem , tracta. 26. and fleashely wise into the belly ? S. Augustine expoundinge the same woordes , saithe thus , Crede , & Manducasti : Credere in Christum , hoc est Manducare Panem Viuum : Iste Panis Interioris Hominis quaerit esuriem : Beleeue thou ( in Christe ) : and thou haste Eaten ( Christe ) . To Beleeue in Christe , that is the Eatinge of the Breade of Life : This Breade requireth the Hunger of the Inner Man . Nicola . Lyra in Psalm . 111. And Nicolas Lyra , one of your owne Doctours , saithe , These woordes of S Iohn perteine nothinge to the Sacramente . Thus he saithe , Hoc Verbum nihil directè pertinet ad Sacramentalem , vel Corporalem Manducationem : This Saieinge ( of the Sixthe of Iohn ) perteineth nothinge directely to the Sacramental , or Corporal Eatinge . It was somme ouersight of your parte , M. Hardinge , to seeke to proue the Eatinge of the Sacramente by those woordes , that , by your owne Doctours iudgemente , perteine nothinge to the Sacramente .

Christe saithe further , Iohn . 6. Onlesse ye Eate the Fleashe of the Sonne of Man , and Drinke his Blonde , ye shal haue no Life in you . If there be none other Eating of Christes Body , whereby wee shal liue , but onely your Fantastical , and Fleashely Eatinge with Mouthe , and Teethe , then , I beséeche you , what Life hathe Abraham , Isaac , Iacob , Moses , Aaron , and other Holy Patriarkes , and Prophetes , that were before the comming of Christ ? What Life haue a great number of Holy Martyrs ? What Life haue Christian Children , that being Baptized in the Bloud of Christe , departe this Life before they can receiue the Sacramente : that is to saie , by your strange Exposition , before they haue Really , & Substantially Eaten the Fleashe of Christe ? Wil ye saie , They haue no Life ? Or wil ye condemne them al to Euerlasting Deathe ? Or muste wée thinke , they shal neuer rise againe ? Certainely S. Augustine saithe precisely , Augustin . in Iohan . tracta. 26. Qui Manducat , habet Vitam : & , qui non Manducar , non habet Vitam : Who so Eateth ( the Fleashe of Christe , ) hathe Life : and who so Eateth it not , hathe no Life . Hereof wee muste needes conclude by your Diuinitie , that Abraham , Isaac , Iacob , Moses , and other Godly Fathers , that neuer receiued the Sacramente , haue no Life , but are deade for euer , without hope of Resurrection .

But , to leaue your Fantasies , M. Hardinge , the cause of Our Resurrection , as S. Paule saithe , 1. Corin 15. Origen . Ad Roma . Ca 8. Li. 6. Augustin Meditation . Cap. 14. is the Sprite of God , that dwelleth in vs . Origen saithe , Resurgemus propter Spiritum habitantem in nobis : Necesse est enim Spiritui reddi habitaculum suum : Wee shal rise againe bicause of the Sprite , that dwelleth within vs : For of necessitie the Sprite muste haue his House resto●red vnto him . S. Augustine saithe , Haec mea tota Spes est , & omnis fiducia . Est enim in ipso Iesu Christo Domino nostro Vniuscuiusque nostrum portio , Caro , & Sanguis . Vbi ergo portio mea regnat , ibi ego me regnare credo : This is my whole hope , and al my truste . For in Christe Jesu our Lorde is Fleashe , and Bloude , whiche is a Portion of eche of vs . Therefore where a Portion of mine reigneth , there I beleeue , that I reigne too .

S. Cyril saithe , Quamuis Mors propter peccatum in Naturam nostram insilijt , tamen , Cyrill . in Iohan . Li. 4. Ca. 15. Cyril . in Iohan. Lib. 8. Cap. 47. quia Filius Dei Homo factus est , omnes profectò Resurgemus : Although Deathe be fallen into our Nature , yet bicause the Sonne of God is made Man , doubtelesse wee shal al rise againe . Likewise againe he saithe , Sic vos effeci participes Diuinae Naturae , cùm Spiritum meum fecerim habitare in vobis , Christus enim in nobis est per Spiritum , Corruptionem nostram in Incorruptionem Cōmutans : So I made you Partetakers of the Diuine Nature , when I caused my Sprite to dwel in you . For Christe is in vs by his Sprite , changinge our Corruption into Incorruption . Thus the Sprite of God is the Cause , and the woorker of our Resurrection . And , to comme neare vnto you , the Sacramentes of Christe are also Meanes , and Instrumentes , and Seales hereof : but not the Causes . S. Cyril saithe , Quòd Mystica Communio Resurrectionis quaedam fit Confessio , Cyril . in Iohan. Lib. 12. Cap. 58. verbis Christi ipsius probatur . Ait enim , Hoc est Corpus Meum : Hoc in Memoriam Mei facite : That the Mystical Communion is a certaine Confession of y● Resurrection , it is proued by the woordes of Christe him selfe . For he saithe , This is my Body : Doo this in Remembrance of mee . And therefore in the Councel of Nice , Concil. Nicen. the Holy Mysteries are called Resurrectionis nostrae Symbola : The Pleadges , or Tokens of our Resurrection . And S. Ambrose , De Con. Dist. 2. Non iste . speakinge distinctely hereof , saithe , Non iste Panis , qui vadit in Corpus , sed Panis Vitae Aeternae , qui animae nostrae Substantiam fulcit : It is not this Breade ( of the Sacramente ) that passeth into the Body : but it is the Breade of Euerlastinge Life , that susteineth the Substance of our Soule .

And to put the mater further out of doubte , the same force vnto Resurrection , that is applied vnto the Sacramente of Christes Body , is also , and in as ample sorte geuen to the Sacramente of Baptisme . Basil De Sancto Baptismate . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Ignatius ad Trallien . Concil. Wormatien . Cap. 5. S. Basile saithe , Dies Paschatis est Pignus Resurrectionis : Baptisma verò est potentia , & vis ad Resurrectionem : Easter Daie is a pleadge of Resurrection : But Baptisme is a power and strengthe vnto Resurrection . Againe he saithe , Resurrectionis Gratiam in die Resurrectionis excipiamus : Vpon the daie of Christes Resurrection , Let vs receiue ( Baptisme , whiche is ) the Grace of Resurrection . Ignatius saithe , Vt Credentes in Mortem eius , per Baptismum participes eius Resurrectionis efficiamini : That beleeuinge in his Deathe , by Baptisme ye maie be made Partetakers of his Resurrection . Therefore in the Councel of Woormes it is written thus : In Aquas demersio , in Infernum descensio est : Et rursus , ab Aquis emersio , Resurrectio est : The Dippinge into the Water , is the goeinge downe into Hel : and the comminge out of the Water , is the Resurrection .

In the ende , M. Hardinge , ye blowe vp merily your owne Conquest : And thus yée saie , Wee haue confuted the Doctrine , wherein yee declare your Faithe : and the Chiefe groundes , whereon ye builde your Newe Gospell , Wee haue disproued : But , with so simple proufes , and so many Vntruthes , as , for Honours sake , maie not wel be shewed in your Triumphe .

❧ Here endeth the Seconde Parte .
The Thirde Parte .
The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 1.

BEholde , these are the horrible Heresies , for the whiche a good parte of the worlde is at this daie condemned by the Bishop of Rome : & yet were neuer hearde to pleade their cause . He shoulde haue commenced his suite rather againste Christe , against the Apostles , and againste the Holy Fathers . For these thinges did not onely procede from them , but were also appointed by them : Excepte perhaps these menne wil saie ( as , I thinke , thei wil in deede ) that Christe neuer instituted the Holy Communion , to be diuided emongest the Faitheful : Or , that Christes Apostles , and the Auncient Fathers saide Priuate Masses , in euery corner of the Temples , now tenne , nowe twentie togeather in one daie : Or , that Christe and his Apostles bannished al the Common People from the Sacrament of his Bloude : Or , that the thinge , that they them selues doo at this daie euery where , & doo it so , as thei condemne him for an Heretique , whiche dothe otherwise , is not called of Gelasius theire owne Doctoure , plaine Sacrilege : Or , that these be not the very woordes of Ambrose , Augustine , Gelasius , Theodorete , Chrysostome , and Origene , The Breade and Wine in the Sacramentes remaine stil the same , thei were before : The thinge , whiche is seene vpon the Holy Table , is Breade : There ceaseth not to be stil the Substance of Breade , and Nature of Wine : The Substance , and Nature of Breade , are not changed : The selfe same Breade , as touchinge the Material Substance , goeth into the bely , and is caste out into the priuie : Or , that Christe , the Apostles , & Holy Fathers praied not in that tongue , whiche the people might vnderstande : Or , that Christe hath not perfourmed al thinges by that one offeringe , whiche he once offered vpon the Crosse : Or , that the same Sacrifice was Vnperfite , so that now we haue neede of an other .

M. Hardinge .

What crake ye of a good parte of the Worlde ? The greater is the number of those ye haue seduced , the more greeuous shal be your iudgement . There be not yet many yeeres paste , that ye boasted of your poore small flocke , alludinge to the fewnesse of the Flocke , that liued with Christe in Fleashe , and made their fewnesse an argumente of the sincere Truthe But nowe that through your euil teachinge , * * Who so wanteth dissolution , and wickednesse , maie seeke it at Rome . the worlde groweth more to be dissolute and wicked , ye boast of your number . This is certaine , touchinge groundes of truthe , the Churche erreth not , as that whiche enioyeth Christes promise : and your Congregation teachinge the contrary , muste therefore be taken for the Children of the Father of Lies . Though tenne , or twenty Masses were not saide in one daie by Christe , the Apostles , or Fathers , as ye scoffe , when the Faithe was firste Preached , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For in the time of Augustine , Ambrose ▪ Hierome , &c. there were moe Christians in the worlde , then be at this presente . and fewe beleued , no Churches ( whiche here not without prophane malice ye name Temples ) yet beinge builie : this is no sufficient reason , why we maie not nowe , Fewe , or many . where the Faithe is generally receiued , haue sundry Masses in one Churche in one daie . Ye make muche a doo about bothe Kindes , and to aggrauate the matter ye vse the odious terme of bannishinge the people from the Cuppe . We teache the people for * * Good causes against God . good causes to be contente with one Kinde , doinge them to vnderstande , they receiue the whole Body of ‡ ‡ One Dreame to proue an other . Christe , Fleashe and Bloude , no lesse , then if they receiued Bothe Kindes . The Sacriledge whiche Gelasius speaketh of , consisteth * * Vntruthe . For it stoode in diuidinge of the Sacraments . in diuidinge Christe , and the same he imputeth to the Manichees , as I haue an other where declared . To M. Iuelles Chalenge , Artic. 2. And therefore as that toucheth not vs , who doo not diuide Christe , but in the Sacramente geue to the people whole Christe , so it sheweth you to be either sclaunderous , or ignorant .

As for the tongue of the Churche Seruice , ‡ ‡ How so euer Christe , and his Apostles didde , the Pope , and his Cleregie can not doo amisse . how so euer Christe , the Apostles , and Holy Fathers praied , the vse of the Latine tongue vsed in the Seruice of the Latine Churche is not by any reason or Auctoritie ye can bringe yet , so farre disproued , that the Churche ought to condemne the order * * Vntruthe plaine , and sensible . For this Order was not from the beginninge . from the beginninge receiued , and hitherto continewed .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée make no crakes of our numbers , M. Hardinge , but humbly géeue God thankes , that , maugre al your practises , and policies , hath published , and proclaimed the name of his Sonne in euery place through the worlde . The foorth , and force thereof greeueth you nowe , as it did others your Fathers before you , that cried out in an agonie , Iohn . 12. What shal wee doo ? Al the worlde renneth after him . Of them S. Cyril saithe , Cyrill . In Iohan . Lib. 8. Ca. 1. Quicquid Christo credentium accesserit , sibi detractum putant : As many Faitheful Beleeuers , as are gotten to Christe , so many , they thinke , are loste from the selues .

Notwithstandinge , the Truthe of God hangeth neither of many , nor of fewe . Liberius the Bishop of Rome saide sometime to the Arian Emperour Constantius , Theodoret. Li. 2. Cap. 16. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Non , si ego solus sum , idcircò minor est ratio Fidei : Although I be alone , yet the accoumpte of Faithe is therefore no white the lesse . Christe compareth the Kingedome of God vnto a peece of Leauen , whiche beinge litle in quantitie the woman taketh , and laiethe in a greate Lumpe of dough , vntil the whole be al Leauened . Chrysostome saithe , Nemo paucitatem vestram deploret . Magna enim est virtus Praedicationis . Matthae . 13. Chrysostom . in Matthae . Homil. 47. Et quod semel fermentatum est , rursus fermentum ad coetera efficitur : Let noman bewaile the smal number of you . For greate is the Vertue of Preachinge . And who so is once Leauened , is him selfe made Leauen to Leauen others . It is noted in the Glose vpon the Clementines , Veritas pedetentim cognoscitur : Truthe is knowen by Litle , and by Litle . In Prooemio Clemen . in Gloss . Ambros . De Noe , & Arca , Ca. 17. Origen . in Psal. 36. Homil. 2. And S. Ambrose , Constat Diluuium eodem numero , quo cumulatum est , esse diminutum : It is knowen , that the ●loudde in the time of Noe , as it grewe by degrees , so by degrees it abated . Origen saithe , Ego concitabo eos in non Gentem . Nos sumus non Gens : qui pauci ex ista Ciuitate credimus , & alij ex alia . Et nusquam Gens integra ab initio credulitatis videtur assumpta : I shal prouoke them by them , that are no people . Wee are they , that were no people , that Beleeue in Christe , a fewe in this Cittie , and a fewe in an other . And neuer was there any Nation , that was taken whole at the first beginninge of the Faithe . The meaninge hereof is this , that God calleth menne , not al togeather , but nowe a fewe , nowe moe , as vnto his secrete wisedome séemeth beste . So is it writen in the late Councel of Basile , In Con. Basil . in Episto . Synodali . Pag. 152. Spiritus Sanctus non illuminat omnes eodem tempore : Sed vbi vult , & quando vult , spirat : The Holy Ghoste doothe not geeue light to al menne at one time : but breatheth where it wil , and when it wil.

This is the Counsel , and the hande of God , M. Hardinge . Wée maie saie vnto you , Tertull in Apolog●t . as Tertullian saide sometime vnto the Heathens : Exquisitior quaeque crudelitas vestra , illecebra est magis Sectae . Plures efficimur , quoties me●imur à vobis . Semen est Sanguis Christianorum : Your earnest crueltie is an entisemente , and a prouocation vnto this Secte : As often as ye recken vs , ye finde vs moe , and moe . The Seede hereof is Christian Bloude . Fewe , or many , Churche . Temple . Arnobius saide sometime vnto the enimies of the Crosse of Christe : Nonne haec saltem fidem vobis faciunt argumenta credendi , qu●d iam per omnes terras , in tam breui tempore , & paruo , immensa nominis huius Sacramenta diffusa sunt ? At the leaste , Arnobius aduer. Gentes , Li. 1. Prouerb . 21. doo not these proufes make you beleeue , that , ye see , the greate Secretes of this Name ( of Christe ) are powred abroade in so shorte space through al Countries ?

Fighte not againste God , M. Hardinge . There is no Wisedome , there is no Counsel againste the Lorde .

This is certaine , ye saie , touchinge the groundes of Faithe , the Churche erreth not . Whether your Churche haue erred , or no , and in what groundes , it shal better appeare hereafter . Truely S. Bernarde saithe of your Churche , euen of your Churche of Rome , Bernard ad Cle●●● In Concil. Rhemen . Intestina , & insanabilis facta est plaga Ecclesiae : The wounde of the Churche is within the bowelles , and paste recouerie . And againe , Haec sunt infoelicissima tempora , quae praeuidit Apostolus , in quibus homines sanam Doctrinam non sustinent : Bernard . super Salue Regina . These be the vnhappy daies , that the Apostle sawe before , when Menne cannot abide sounde Doctrine . This was S. Bernardes iudgemente of your Churche : that it woulde heare no sounde Doctrine : and that it for that cause seemed vtterly paste recouerie . Therefore so certainely to assure your selfe of a thinge vncertaine , it was no wisedome . Wee maie saie of your Popes , and Bishoppes , whome onely ye meane by the name of your Churche , as S. Hierome saide sometime of certaine others your Fathers longe agoe : Hieronym . in Sophoni . Ca. 3. Non tam indignentur ●obis haec exponentibus , & Prophetis vaticinantibus , quàm Dominum deprecentur , & studios● agant , ne de Sacerdo●ibus , qui violant Sancta Domini , esse mereantur : Let them not take stomake againste vs , that expounde these thinges : nor againste the Prophetes , that foretolde these thinges : But let them praie vnto God , and take good heede , that they be not of those Priestes , that defile the Holy thinges of the Lorde .

Churches , ye saie , not without profane malice , ye cal Temples . Malice comme vnto him , M. Hardinge , that Malice meaneth . The Prophete Dauid saithe , The Lorde in his Holy Temple : Psalm. 10. 1. Corinth. 3. S. Paule saithe , Your Bodies be the Temples of the Holy Ghoste : Know ye not , that ye be the Temple of God : If any man defile the Temple of God , 2. Corinth. 6. the Lorde wil destroie him : Ye are the Temple of the Liuinge God : What agreemente is there bitweene the Temple of God , and an Idole ? So many times S. Paule nameth Temples togeather in one place : and yet , I thinke , without any greate profane Malice . But it shal be lawful for you , M. Hardinge , to make newe Sinnes , and to saie , The Apostles of Christe were malicious , & wicked , onely for that they called the Churche of God by the name of Temple . Would God , ye had not turned Goddes Temple into the Synagoge of Sathan . Wée sée by your practise , it is true , Chrysostom . in Matthae . Homil. 38. that S. Chrysostome saithe , Sicut de Templo omne bonum egreditur , ita etiam de Templo omne Malum procedit : As euery good thinge proceedeth from the Temple , so euery il thinge proceedeth likewise from the Temple .

In defence of your Halfe Communion , ye saie , For good causes ye teache the people to be contente with one Kinde . And thus ye force the poore people , contrarie to the expresse Woorde of Christe , contrarie to the example of the Apostles , and al the Holy Fathers in the Primitiue Churche , and contrarie to the general vse , and order of a whole thousande yéeres , to geeue care to your good causes . But these causes , no doubte , are greate , and woorthy : Otherwise yée would not weigh them againste God . Alphons . Aduersus Hares . Li. 6. De Eucharist . But wherefore are they dissembled . Why are they not tolde vs ? Your owne Doctours , Alphonsus de Castro , and Iohn Gerson , haue laide them out in this wise Particularely , and at large : The daunger of sheaddinge : The carriei●ge from place to place : Section vltima . Iohan ▪ Gerson De Communione Laico● . The fowlinge of the Cuppes : The trouble of Mennes Beardes : The Reseruinge for the Sicke : The turninge of the Wine into Vineger : The engendringe of Plees : The Corruption , or Putrefaction : The Lothesomenesse that maie happen , for so many to Drinke of one Cuppe : Halfecom munion . The impossibilitie of prouidinge one Cuppe , that maie be sufficiente to serue al the People : In somme places Wine is deare : in somme other places the Wine wil be frorne . These , M. Hardinge , be the fairest , and greattest of your good causes . And yet haue you thus concluded in your late Chapter at Tridente , Si quis dixerit ▪ Concil. Trident. De Commun sub vna specie , Can. 2. Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam non iustis causis , & rationibus adductam fuisse , vt Laicos , atque etiam Clericos non conficientes , sub Panis tantummod● specie Communicaret , aut in eo errasse , Anathema sit : If any man shal saie , that the Holy Catholique Churche , without iuste Causes , and reasons her mouinge , doothe Communicate bothe the Laitie , and also Priestes , onlesse they Minister , vnder the onely Fourme of Breade , Tertul De Praescription . or that the Churche hath erred in the same , Accursed be he . Therefore Tertullian saithe rightly of you : Credunt sine Scripturis , vt Credant Contra Scripturas : They Beleeue without the Scriptures , that they maie Beleeue againste the Scriptures .

But specially , I beseche you , M. Hardinge , consider wel these woordes of S. Hierome , Hieronym . in Sophoni . Cap. 1. and sée , whether ye maie applie them to your selues , or no : In Consummatione Mundi scrutabitur Dominus Hierusalem , id est , Ecclesiam suam cum Lucerna , & vlciscetur super viros Contemptores , qui noluerunt Seruare Custodias suas , id est , Mandata Domini Contempserunt : & insuper Ratione se peccare dicentes , blasphemauerunt in Cordibus suis : In the ende of the Worlde our Lorde shal searche Hierusalem , that is to saie , his Churche , with a Candel , and shal wreake him selfe vpon the despisers , that woulde not keepe their watches , that is to saie , that despised the Commaundementes of God : and ouer , and bisides this , saieinge , they hadde good Causes , and Reasons , wherefore they shoulde offende , ( & breake Goddes Commaundementes , ) they blasphemed in their Hartes .

That ye surmise of Gelasius , is moste vntrue . He speaketh not one Woorde there , of the diuidinge of Christe , as you imagine : nor had he any cause so to speake . But he saithe in moste plaine wise , It is Sacrilege to doo the same thinge , that you doo , that is to saie , to diuide the Sacramente , & to Minister the One parte , as ye doo , without the other . Looke better on your Bookes : and Confesse the Truthe , De Consecrat. Dist. 2. Comperimus . as ye shal finde it . The woordes be these : Aut integra Sacramenta percipiant , aut ab integris arceantur . Quia diuisio vnius eiusdemque Mysterij sine grandi Sacrilegio non potest peruenire : Either lette them receiue the whole Sacramentes , or els let them be driuen from the whole . For the Diuision ofone and the same Mysterie ( or Sacramente ) cannot happen without greate Sacrilege . He speaketh not of the diuision of One Christe , as you tel vs , but of the diuision of One Mysterie .

Otherwise , touchinge Christe , 1. Corinth . 8. Euagri . Lib. 2. Cap. 17. wée saie with S. Paule , Vnus Dominus Iesus Christus , There is One Lorde Iesus Christe : And wée proteste with the Bishoppes of the Easte in the Councel of Chalcedon , Accursed be he , that parteth Christe : Accursed be he , Concil. Chalcedon . Actio 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . that diuideth him .

That you saie , The order of your Latine Seruice hath euermore benne vsed in the Latine Churche from the beginning , it is vtterly vntrue . For proufe whereof , I remitte you to my Former Replie in the thirde Article , & the fiftéenth Diuision .

The reste , that ye allege , is not woorthe the answearinge .

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 2.

Al these thinges muste they of necessitie saie , onlesse perchaunce thei had rather saie thus , That al Lawe , and Right is locked vp in the treasurie of the Popes breaste , and that , as once one of his soothinge Pages , and Clawbackes did not sticke to saie , the Pope is hable to dispense againste the Apostles , againste a Councel , and againste the Canons and Rules of the Apostles : and that he is not bounde to ▪ stande , neither to the examples , Dispense againste Goddes woorde . nor to the ordinaunces , nor to the Lawes of Christe .

M. Hardinge .

To saie , that al Lawe and right ( your Latine terme is Fas ) is locked vp in the treasurie of the Popes breas●te , it were absurde and vnreasonable . Mary to saie , that the Lawes reste in the Popes breaste , It is no reason that Diuines be required to make good what so euer is written by the Canonistes or Schoolemen . after a certaine meaninge , as hereafter shal be declared , it is * * Not altogeather biside truthe : A Colde Defence . not altogeather beside truthe and reason . But Sirs , what if some meane writer , or Gloser vpon the Canon Lawe speake somewhere out of square , if al should be exactly tried by Scripture , wil ye laie that to our charge ? Shal the Faithe of the Catholike Churche thereby be called in doubte and question ? We take not vpon vs to Defende al that the Canonistes , or Schoolemen saie or write : &c. In this kinde or order be many things , whiche may rather be called rules of maners , then Principles , or such as we terme Axiomata of our Faithe . These although they be founde written in the Scripture , for asmuche as they haue benne commaunded by an occasion , and for some cause , they maie for cause , and occasion , and , as we finde in C. Lector , for necessitie , by Gods depute , and Vicare be supplied , holpen , expounded . And if the case so require , he in the same for a certaine cause , with a certaine persone , for a certaine time , with certaine circumstances maye dispense , by the same spirite , they were firste founded and instituted withal , and with the same intention , to witte , for some speciall good , and furtherance of Godlinesse . Suche administration of Gods Lawe , and suche dispensation thereof , as of a precious Treasure , not free or at Libertie and pleasure , but an euen , iuste , and good dispensation , they do attribute to Gods Vicare , whome this Defender calleth the Popes Parasites , Pages , and Clawbackes , him selfe a very Page , Slaue , and clawbacke to the Diuel .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , ye rome , and wander , & goe masket , as a man , that were benighted , and had loste his waie . In somme cases , ye saie , the Pope maie dispense against Goddes Woorde : In somme cases he maie not . Faine woulde ye , for shame , somewhat limite , & restraine his Immoderate Authoritie : but ye knowe not , where to laie the boundes . 15. q. 6. Authoritatem . In Glossa . Dist. 82. Presbyter . Ye make smal accompte of your Schoole Doctoures , and Canonistes , that is to saie , of the Principal Pillers of your Catholique Churche : and thinke them not woorthy to be your guides . How be it , your laboure cannot al be loste : For they wil thinke as light of you .

But , Felin . De Constitutionib . Cap. Statuta Canonum . Colum. 6. 6. q. 1. Quicunabque ; . In Clossa . for as mutche , as , ye saie , they flatter not the Pope , nor be his Pages , or Parasites , but speake roundely to him , and tel him his owne , it shal not be mutche amisse , to herken a litle , what they saie .

One of them saithe thus , Papa potest Dispensare contra Ius Naturale : The Pope maie Dispense againste the Lawe of Nature . An other saith , Papa Dispensat contra Canones Apostolorum : The Pope Dispenseth against the Canons , or Rules of the Apostles . Panormi . Extra De Diuortijs . Ca. Fin. An other saithe , Papa potest mutare formam Verborum in Baptismo : The Pope maie change the fourme of Woordes in Baptisme . An other saithe , Priuilegium dari potest contra Ius Diuinum : The Popes Priuilege maie be graunted againste the Lawe of God . Summa Angel . In Dictione Papa . An other saithe , Papa ex Maxima Causa potest Dispensare contra Nouum Testamentum : The Pope vpon a very great cause maie dispense againste the Newe Testamente . An other saith , Papa potest Dispensare de omnibus praeceptis veteris , Felin . De Constitution . Ca. Statuta Canonum . Felin . De Maioritate , & Obedient . Ca. 2. & Noui Testamenti : The Pope maie Dispense for any commaundemente of the Olde , or Newe Testamente . An other saithe , Papa potest Dispensare contra Epistolas Pauli : The Pope maie Dispense againste the Epistles of S. Paule . And somewhat to qualifie the outrage of the mater , an other saithe , Papa potest Dispensare contra Ius Diuinum in Particulari , non in Vniuersali : The Pope maie Dispense against the Lawe of God , in Particulare , not in General . Idem De Maioritate , & Obedien. Ca. fin . And againe , Papa potest tollere Ius Diuinum ex Parte , non in Totum : The Pope maie abolishe the Lawe of God , in parte , but not in whole .

An other saithe , Dispense againste Goddes Woord . Martinus Papa . 5. Dispensauit cum quodam , qui acceperat Germanam suam in Vxorem : Pope Martine , the. 5. dispensed with a man , that had taken to Wife his owne Sister . Whether this reporte be true , or false , I referre mée selfe to the credite of the Authoure . Summa Angel . In Dictione pp. Panormita . Extra , De Electione , & Electi potest . Venerabilem . An other saith , Papa potest Dispensare cum omnibus Personis , nisi cum Patre , & Matre : The Pope maie dispense with al Personnes ( touchinge Marriage ) sauinge onely with Father , and Mother ( to Marrie , or to be Married to theire Children ) . An other saith , Papa potest supra Ius Dispensare : Et de Iniustitia potest facere Iustitiam : & Sententiam , quae nulla est , facere aliquam : Et de nihilo , facere aliquid : The Pope maie dispense aboue the Lawe : the Pope of Wronge , maie make Right : De Translatione Episco . Quanto . Hostien . De Translatione Episcop. Quanto . Heruaeus de Potestate Papae . The Pope of no Sentence , maie make a Sentence : The Pope of nothinge , maie make somme thinge . The cause hereof , as an other saith , is this , Quia Papa potest , excepto Peccato , quicquid Deus ipse potest : Sinne onely excepted , the Pope maie doo , what so euer God him selfe maie doo .

An other saithe , Papa habet Authoritatem declarandi Scripturas , ita , vt non liceat oppositum tenere , vel opinari : The Pope hath Authoritie so to expounde , and to declare the Scriptures , that it maie not be lawful for any man to hold , or to thinke the Contrarie . For Cardinalis Cusanus saithe , Cardina . Cusan . De Authoritat . Eccle. & Conci . Supra & contra Scripturam . as it saide before , Scripturae ad tempus adaptatae sunt , & variè intellectae , ita , vt vno tempore secundum currentem Vniuersalem ritum exponantur : mutato ritu , iterum sententia mutetur : The Scriptures are applied vnto the time , and are diuersly derstanded : so that at one time they are taken accordinge to the Vniuersal Currente order : whiche order being changed , the meaninge of the Scripture is changed too .

An other demaundeth a question , Francis . De Maron . in 4. Dist. 19 q. 1. Articul. 2. 9. quae . 3. Nemo . In Glossa . Vtrùm Papa ex Plenitudine Potestatis possit omnia : Whether the Pope by the Fulnesse of his Power maie doo al thinges .

An other saithe , Si totus mundus sententict contra Papam , videtur , quòd standum esse● sententiae Papae : If al the Worlde woulde geue sentence contrarie to the Pope , yet it seemeth , wee ought to stande to the sentence of the Pope . These , M. Hardinge , by your Iudgemente are neither Pages , nor Parasites : but good sadde , and earnest frendes : sutche as loue roughly , and plainely to vtter theire minde , without flatterie .

This doubtelesse is it , that Daniel so longe before Prophesied of him , Dabitur illi os loquens grandia : Daniel . 7. He shal haue a mouthe geuen him vtteringe greate , and presumptuous maters . For in déede , notwithstandinge al this glorious glitteringe of painted Authoritie , Iohan. Andreas . De Iudicijs . Cum venissent . yet one of the Popes owne menne saithe , Papa non potest facere de quadrato rotundum : The Pope cannot make a square thing , rounde . S. Bernarde saith , An Regula non concordat cum Euangelio , vel Apostolo ? Alioqui Regularam non est Regula : Bernar. in Apologia ad Guliel . Abbatem . quia non est recta : Dooth not the Rule agree with the Gospel , or with the Apostle ? Otherwise that Rule is no Rule at al : for it is crooked , it is not streight .

And therefore Pope Zosimus in more sober wise saithe thus , Contra Statuta Patrum condere aliquid , Inter Decr●ta Zosimi . vel mutare , ne huius quidem Sedis Authoritas potest : The Authoritie of this See cannot order , or change any thinge contrarie to the orders of our Fathers .

Isidorus saithe , Is qui praeest , si praeter voluntatem , vel praeter quod in Scripturis Sanctis euidenter Praecipitur , 11. q. 3. Si is qui. vel dicitaliquid , vel imperat , tanquam Falsus Testis Dei , & Sacrilegus habeatur : He that is in Authoritie , if he speake , or Commaunde any thinge , besides the wil , or meaninge of Goddes Woorde , or otherwise , then is expressely commaunded in the Scriptures , let him be taken as a Churcherobber , and as a false witnesse against God .

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 3.

Wee , for our parte , haue learned these thinges of Christe , of the Apostles , of the Deuoute Fathers : and doo sincerely with good faithe teache the people of God the same . Whiche thinge is the onely cause why wee at this daie are called Heretiques of the chiefe Prelate ( no doubte ) of Religion . O immortal God , hath Christe him selfe then , the Apostles , & so many Fathers , al at once gonne astraie ? Were then Origene , Ambrose , Augustine , Chrysostome , Gelasius , Theodoretus , foresakers of the Catholique Faithe ? Was so notable a consent of so many Auncient Bishoppes , and Learned menne , nothinge els , but a conspiracie of Heretiques ? Or , is that nowe condemned in vs , whiche was then commended in them ? Or , is the thing now , by alteration onely of mennes affections , sodainely becomme schismatique , whiche in them was coumpted Catholique ? Or , shal that , whiche in times paste was vndoubtedly true , now by and by , bicause it liketh not these menne , be Iudged false ? Let them then bringe foorth an other Gospel , & let them shewe the causes , why these thinges , whiche so longe haue openly benne obserued , & wel allowed in the Churche of God , ought nowe in the ende to be called in againe . Wee know wel yenough , the● the same Woorde , whiche was opened by Christe , and spreadde abroade by the Apoistles , is sufficiente , bothe to our Saluation , & also to vphold , & mainteine al Truthe , & to confound al manner of Heresie . By that Woorde onely doo wee condemne al sortes of the Olde Heretiques , whom these menne saie , wee haue called out of Hel againe . As for the Arians , the Eutychians , the Marcionites , the Ebionites , the Valentinians , the Carpocratians , the Tatians , the Nouatians , and shortely al them , whiche haue a wicked opinion either of God the Father , or of Christe , or of the Holy Ghost , or of any other pointe of Christian Religion , for so mutche as they be confuted by the Gospel of Christe , wee plainely pronounce them for destable , & damned Personnes , and defie them euen vnto the Diuel . Neither doo wee leaue them so , but wee also seuerely , and streitely hold them in by lawful , and politique pounishementes , if they fortune to breake out any where , and bewraie them selues .

M. Hardinge .

We for our parte knowe , as nowe we haue proued , that ye haue not learned these thinges of Christe , nor of the Apostles , nor of the Fathers : but of Luther , Zwinglius , Oecolampadius , Caluine , Peter Martyr , Bucer , and sutche other Apostates : and that ye do moste falsely , and wickedly leade the people into the Pitte with you . And therefore ye are iustly condemned by the Churche , and demed Heretikes , &c.

How condemne ye the Donatistes , seinge with them ye breake , and throwe down the Holy Aulters of God , on whiche ( as Optatus writeth ) the Body , and Bloude of Christe was wonte to be laid ? &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

Hereto , M. Hardinge , the whole grosse summe of your Answeare in effecte is this : Ye Falsely , and wickedly leade the people : ye are Apostates : ye are Heretiques : ye are Impupudente , and rebellious Children : ye are Despisers of God : Mockers of your Mother : and peruerters of the Apostles : ye vtter Lies : ye speake blasphemies . At the laste ye saie , The Diuel dwelleth in our hartes , as in his shoppe . This is a hasty kinde of Logique , M. Harding : He muste needes be harde harted , that wil not yelde to sutche Argumentes .

To leaue other your waste woordes , Auttars . of Vigilantius , Iouinian , Manichee , Aërius , and sutche others , in the ende ye pronounce your Definitiue Sentence , as a Iudge , and condemne vs for Heretiques , for that wée haue taken downe your Shoppes , and gaineful Boothes , whiche ye cal the Holy Aultars of God . Verily , this muste néedes be thought , either extreme rigoure , or greate folie , of the remoninge of a stone to make an Heresie . Sutche Heresies , I trowe , S. Augustine , S. Ambrose , Optatus , and other Learned Fathers knewe but fewe .

Neither is there any good sufficiente reason to be shewed , wherefore it should more be Heresie in vs , to take downe your néedelesse , and Superstitious Walles , whiche ye had erected of your selues , without Commission , then it was lately in you , to teare in sunder , and to burne our Communion Tables : in the erection , and vse whereof wée had the vndoubted example , bothe of Christe him selfe , and also of the Aunciente Catholique Fathers . I saie nothinge of your Crueltie in burninge so many Bibles , and Bookes of Goddes Holy Woorde : so many of your Bretherns Bodies : so many Temples of the Holy Ghoste .

As for the Aultars , whiche , Optatus saithe , the Donatistes brake downe , they were certainely Tables of Wood , sutche as wée haue : and not Heapes of stones , Artic. 3. Diui 20. August . Epist. 50. Ad Bonifacium . Athanasi . in Epist. ad Solitariam Vitam agentes . sutche as ye haue as in my Former Replie , made vnto you , it maie better appeare . S. Augustine reportinge the same storie saithe , the Donatistes in theire furie brake downe the Aultare Bourdes : His woordes be these , Lignis eiusdem Altaris effractis . Likewise saithe Athanasius of the like furie of the Arians : Subsellia , Thronum , Mensam Ligneam , & Tabulas Ecclesiae , & coetera , quae poterant , foras elata combusserunt : They carried foorthe , and burnte the Seates , the Pulpite , the Woodden Bourde , the Churche Tables , and sutche other thinges , as they coulde g●ate .

Touchinge your Stone Aultars , Beatus Rhenanus saithe , B. Rhenan . in Epistola praefixa● Liturgiae Chrysostom . In nostris Basilicis Ararum Superaddititia structura nouitatem prae se sert : In our Churches the buildinge vp of Aultars , added to the reste , declareth a noueltie .

Wée haue sutche Aultars , M. Hardinge , as Christe , his Apostles , S. Augustine , Optatus , and other Catholique , and Holy Fathers had , and vsed : whoes examples to folowe , wée neuer thought it to be sutche Heresie .

But Optatus saithe , The Body , and Bloude of Christe was woonte to be laide vpon the Aultare : and with these woordes ye would faine affonne your simple Reader , as if Christes Body laie there Really , Fleashely , Verily , and in déede . But ye should Augu. ad Bonifaci . Epistiol . 23. remember , that S. Augustine saithe , Sacramentum Corporis Christi secundum quendam modum Corpus Christi est : Et Sacramentum Sanguinis Christi secundum quendam modum Sanguis Christi est : The Sacramente of Christes Body ( not verily , and in deede , but ) after a certaine manner of speache is Christes Body : and the Sacramente of Christes Bloude , after a certaine manner of speache is the Bloude of Christe . De Conse . Dist. 2. Hoc est , quod . in Glossa . This manner of Speache your owne Glose thus expoundethe , Vocatur Corpus Christi , id est , Significat Corpus Christe : It is called the ●ody of Christe , that is to saie , It Signifieth the Body of Christe . And , as Optatus saith , Christes Body and Bloude were laide vpon the Aultare , or Communion Table , euen to S. Aug●stine saithe , The whole people was in the Communion Cuppe , and laide vpon the Holy Table . August . ad Infantes . Citatur à Beda in 1. Cor. 10. These be his woordes , Vos estis in Mensa : Vos estis in Calice : You are vpon the Table : You are in the Cuppe . As the people is vpon the Table , so is Christes Body vpon the Table . The People is not laide , there verily , and in deede , but onely in a Mysterie : Euen so the Body of Christe , as Op●●us saith , is laide there , not verily , and in déede , nor in Real , and Fleashly Presence , but in a Mysterie .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 1.

In deede wee graunte , that certaine new and very strange sectes , as the Anabaptistes , Libertines , Menonians , and Zwenckfeldians haue benne stirringe in the World , euer sithence the Gospel did firste springe . But the Worlde seeth nowe right wel , thankes be geeuen to our God , that wee haue neither breadde , nor taught , nor keapte vp these Monsters . In good folowship , I praie thee , who so euer thou be , reade our Bookes , they are to be solde in euery place . What hath there euer benne written by any of our companie , that might plainely beare with the madnesse of any of those Heretiques ? Naie , I saie vnto you , there is no Countrie this daie so free from theire Pestilent infections , as these be , wherein the Gospel is freely , & commonly preached . So that , if they weigh the very mater with earnest , and vpright aduisemente , this thinge is a greate Argument , that this same Doctrine , whiche wee teache , is the very Truthe of the Gospel of Christe . For lightly neither is cockle woont to growe without the wheate , nor yet the chaffe without the Corne . For from the very Apostles times , who knoweth not , howe many Heresies did rise vp euen togeather , so soone as the Gospel was firste spreadde abroade ? Who euer had hearde tel of Simon , Menander , Saturninus , Basilides , Carpocrates , Cherinthus , Ebion , Valentinus ▪ Secundus , Marcosius ; Colorbasius , Heracleo , Lucianus , Seuerus , and other like , before the Apostles were sent abroade ? But why stande wee reckeninge vp these ? Epiphanius rehearseth vp foure score sundrie Heresies : and Augustine many moe , whiche did springe vp euen togeather with the Gospel . What then ? Was the Gospel therefore not the Gospel , bicause Heresies sprange vp withal ? Or was Christe therefore not Christe ?

And yet , as wee saide , dothe not this greate croppe , and heape of Heresies growe vp emongest vs , whiche doo openly , abroade , and frankely teache the Gospel . These poisonnes take theire beginninges , theire encreasinges , and strength emongest Our Adnersaries , in blindenesse and in darkenesse , emongest whom Truthe is with tyrannie , and cruelty keapte vnder , and cannot be hearde , but in Corners , and secrete meetinges . But let them make a proufe : Let them geeue the Gospel free passage : Let the Truthe of Iesus Christe geue his cleare light , and stretche foorthe his bright beames into al partes : and then shal they foorthwith see , howe al these shadowes streight wil vanishe , and passe awaie at the light of the Gospel , euen as the thicke Miste of the night consumeth at the sight of the Sonne . For whilest these menne sitte stil , and make mery , and doo nothinge , wee continually represse , and put backe al those Heresies , whiche they falsely charge vs to nurrishe , and mainteine .

M. Hardinge .

As for Libertines , what other Substance hath your Gospel , Libertie . bisides carnal libertie , and licentious liuinge ? Libertines . The Doctrine of the Libertines Gospel . To breake the vowe of chastitie solemly made to God , by whose grace , and your endeuoure it might wel haue benne kepte , and to breake it for wantonnesse , and to satisfie luste : is not that proper to Libertines ? To geue ouer fastinge , watchinge in prayer , and ConfesSion of Sinnes , whiche shoulde be made to a Prieste , by * * Moste Vaine Vntruthe . See the Answeare . whom onely ( excepte in case of necessitie ) God promiseth forgeuenes : To regarde no Tradition , though it came from the Apostles : briefly , to teache that al kinde of outwarde Godlines is superstitious , and Pharisaical , and that euery man must without staggaring , or doubting beleue , that him selfe shal be saued , if he haue Faith , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , ioined with vile sclaunder . doo he what him liste , is this no pointe of libertie ? What made so many malepert Prentises , pleasante Courtiers , discoursinge Parlamente Machiauellistes , and al other what so euer fleash wormes , Merchantes , idle artificers , to embrace your Gospel , rather then the grauer and deuouter sorte of men , whiche be weaned from the pleasure of this life : but that it was plausible to the Worlde , and pleasant to the Fleashe , from whiche that kinde of men are moste hardly drawen ? And yet foresoothe doo not ye foster vp Libertines .

Who can recken the sectes that be in Germany , Bemelande . Silesia . Morauia . being * * Foure greate Vntruthes al togeather . sixteene or moe professed in some one towne ? Bemelande is almoste as ful of Heresies , as of Houses . Silesia is as bad , and Morauia a Countrie there adIoininge is neuer a whit better . And yet do not these Sectes bud , where your Gospel is freely , and openly preached ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Harding , I haue purposely leafte out a greate heape of your talke , not thinkinge it needeful , to answeare al your voide woordes . Hauing nomore regarde , what ye saie , it was no harde mater for you to cal vs Libertines , and to saie , The Gospel , that wee Preache , hathe none other Substance , but Carnal Libertie , and Licenceous Liuinge . If ye had remembred , either the Cittie of Rome , where ye haue benne , or the Towne of Anwarpe , or Louaine , where ye nowe dwelle , ye coulde not wel , without blusshinge , haue charged vs with Carnal Libertie .

Our Wantons , and Fleashewoormes , for so it liketh you to cal them , haue benne contented to forsake Fathers , Mothers , Wiues , Children , goodes , and Liuinges , & méekely to submit them selues to the extreme terroure of al your Cruelties , and to yelde theire bodies vnto the Deathe : to be sterued for hunger : and to be burnte in Fiere : Onely for the name , and Gospel of Iesus Christe . Ye wil saie , as your woonte is , when ye haue nothinge els to saie , They died stubbernly in wilful erroure . Yet , I recken , yée wil not saie , They died in greate pleasance , or Carnal Libertie . It is a strange kinde of Fleashely Wantonnesse , for a man to denie him selfe , and to take vp his Crosse , and to folowe Christe . And yet is this the whole Substance of our Gospel .

Iustinus the Martyr , notwithstandinge he was an Heathen , and thought then , euen as you doo nowe , that the Professours of the Name of Christe , were nothinge els , but a sorte of Wanton , and wilful people , yet when he sawe , howe Constantely they died , and howe patiently they suffred , what so euer was laied vpon them , he was at length conuerted him selfe , and by theire example became a Christian : Euseb. Li. 4. ca. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sozom. Li 1 Ca 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Thus Eusebius reporteth his woordes , Ego ipse Platonis Disciplinis delectatus , &c. ● mee selfe takinge pleasure in Platoes Doctrine , and hearinge the Christians is spoken of , and seeinge them to goe courrageously , and boldely to theire Deathe , and to suffer al sutche thinges , as were thought moste terrible , I thought it a thinge impossible , that sutche menne shoulde liue wickedly , or in Wantonnesse .

So likewise writeth Sozomenus touchinge the same , The Christians beinge spoiled of theire goodes , and regardinge nothinge , that they hadde , beinge h●nged on gibbett●s , and suffering al manner tormentes so without care , or sense , as if theire bodies had not benne theire owne , one Head . one Iudge neither allured with flatterie , nor amazed with threates , they gaue al menne hereby to vnderstande , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Psal. 119. that they suffered these thinges ( not of Wantonnesse , but ) for somme greate rewarde .

The Prophete Dauid saithe , In quo corriget adolescens viam suam ? In custodiendo Sermones tuos : Whereby shal a yonge man ( not grow to be a Fleashely wanton , but ) amende his life , and correcte his waie ? He answeareth : ( O Lorde ) by the keepinge of thy woordes .

Therefore wée maie iustly saie to you , Cyrill . Contra Iulian. Lib. 7. Pag. 162. as Cyrillus saide sommetime to Iulianus the Renegate in like case , Etiam pueri in Sacris Literis enutriti , statim fiunt religiosissimi , etiamsi minùs eloquentes : Euen our Children beeing brought vp in the Holy Scriptures , streight waie becomme moste Godly : although not so eloquente , or welspoken .

If there be any sutche Fleashe woormes , and Wantons this daie , they be not the Gospellers , whiche woorde so mutche offendeth you : they be of you , and of yours , M. Hardinge , that is , not the professours , but the Mockers , & wilful despisers of the Gospel .

Ye saie , Confession should be made vnto the Prieste , By whom Onely ( ye saie ) God hath promised forgeuenesse of Sinne . I beseche you , where finde you this Promisse ? Shewe the woordes : Allege the Place : Regarde your Credite . Otherwise , ye wil be noted of Vntruthe . Where did God , or Christe , euer saie , Forgeeuenesse of Sinne is geeuen onely by the Prieste ? If it be so in déede , then why doothe Chrysostome saie , Chrysost. De Poeniten ▪ & Confession . Nunc necessarium non est , Praesentibus Testibus confiteri ? Solus Deus te confitentem videat : Nowe it is not needeful , to make Confession in the Presence of witnesses . Let God Onely See thee makinge thy Confession . Why dooth S. Hierome saie , Hieron . in Matthae . Cap. 16. Apud Deum , non Sententia Sacerdotum , sed reorum vita quaeritur : It is not the Sentence , or Absolution of the Prieste , but the Life of the Sinner , that is regarded before God . How be it , hereof wée haue sufficiently saide before .

Luther , ye saie , Firste procured , that menne should acknowledge no One Head , and Iudge : Whom , as by your reporte , S. Cyprian saithe , they might obeie , as the Vicare of Christe . Of this One Heade , & One Iudge , neither Christe , nor his Apostles euer told vs . S. Cyprian , Cypria . De Sim Praelatorum . Chrysostom in Matthae . Hom. 35 . as it is saide before , saithe thus , Christus Parem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem : Christe gaue vnto al his Apostles Equal Power . And S. Chrysostome saithe , Quicunque desiderat Primatum in Terra , inueniet in Caelo confusionem : Who so euer seeketh the Primacie in Earthe , he in Heauen shal finde Confusion .

The place of S. Cyprian , touching One Heade , and One Iudge , is wel alleged by you , M. Hardinge : but il applied . It is true , that S. Cyprian saithe , The People ought to obeie One Iudge , or One Heade , as the Vicare of Christe . But that by the same One Heade , or Iudge , he meante either the Byshop of Rome , or any one other certaine seueral Bishop , it is moste vntrue . S. Cyprians meanynge is , In the Former Replie , Artic. 4. Diui. 5. as I haue otherwhere more largely declared , that in euery Diocese the People ought to knowe One Bishop , as Head , and Iudge , and him to obeie , as the Vicare of Christ . One Head , or Iudge , I saie , in euery Diocese : not One Vniuersal Heade ouer al the Worlde . For proufe whereof , M. Harding , reade S. Cyprians Epistle vnto Florentinus Pupianus : and ye shal finde , that he vseth the selfe same woordes of him selfe , and not of the Pope : & I doubte not , but ye wil mutche marueile , and mislike your owne errour . His woordes be these , Vnde Schismata , & Haereses obortae sunt , Cyprian . Lib. 4. Epist. 9. & oriuntur , nisi dum Episcopus , qui Vnus est , & Ecclesiae praeest . Superba quorundam praesumptione contemnitur ? Where hence haue Schismes , and Heresies spronge vp , or wherehence doo they springe , onlesse it be , that the Bishop , whiche is One , and ●uleth the Churche , by the prowde presumption of certaine is despised ?

Here S. Cyprian calleth him selfe that One Bishop , and that One Heade , and Iudge of the Churche . Dissensions emong the Fathers . Yet was he onely the Bishop of Carthage in Aphrica : and not the Pope , or Bishop of Rome . Hereof I haue spoken more at large in my Former Replie .

Touching the Pope , Artic. 4. Diui. 5. wherein he maie be knowen for Christes Vicare , it were harde to saie : Onlesse it be for that , where so euer the Pope is presente , there Christe is awaie . Chrysost in Matthae . Homil. 6. Chrysostome saithe , Qui vanam gloriam non desiderat , ille debet Christi Vicarius factus , Christi Iustitiam praedicare : He , that desireth not vaine glorie , beinge made Christes Vicare , ought to preache the Justice of Christe .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 1.

Where they saie , that wee haue fallen into sundrie Sectes , and would be called , somme of vs Lutherans , & somme of vs Zuinglians , & cannot yet wel agree emong our selues , touching the whole Substance of our Doctrine , what would these menne haue saide , if thei had benne in the firste times of the Apostles , and Holy Fathers : when one saide , I holde of Paule : and other , I holde of Cephas : an other , I holde of Apollo ? When Paule did so sharpely rebuke Peter ? When vpon a fallinge out , Barnabas departed from Paule ? When , as Origen mentioneth , the Christians were diuided into so many factions , as that thei keapte nomore , but the name of Christians in common emong them , being in no manner of thing els like to Christians ? When , as Socrates saith , for theire dissensions , & sundrie Sectes , they were laughed , & iested at openly of the people in theire stages , & common gameplaies ? When , as Constantine the Emperour affirmeth , there were sutch a number of Variances , & braulinges in the Churche , that it might iustly seeme a miserie farre passing al the former miseries ? When also Theophilus , Epiphanius , Chrysostome , Augustine , Ruffine , Hierome , being al Christians , being al Fathers , being al Catholiques , quarrelled one against an other , with moste bitter , and most remedilesse contentions without ende ? When , as saithe Nazianzene , the partes of one Body were consumed and wasted one of an other ? When the whole Easte parte of the Churche was diuided from the Weast , onely about leauened Breade , and onely for the keepinge of Easter daie : whiche were in deede no greate maters to be striued for ? And when in al Councelles Newe Creedes , and Newe Decrees continually were diuised ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

The summe of M. Hardinges answeare hereto is this , that the bitter dissensions , that in Olde times fel out emongest the Learned , and Godly Fathers , stoode rather * * A manifeste Vntruthe of M. Hardinges . in maters of manners , and other smal quarrels , then in cases , and questions of the Faithe . For trial of the truethe herein , it maie please you to consider wel these fewe .

Papias , Hieronym . in Hierem. Lib. 4. Irenae . li. 4. ca. 73. Clemens Stromat . Lib. 3. & 5. Iustinus in Apologia . Apollinarius , Victorinus , Tertullianus , Irenaeus , Lactantius , & others , desended the Heresie of the Chiliastae , that saide , Christe after the General Iudgemente shoulde dwel here a thousande yeeres togeather vpon the Earthe . Irenae us helde , that Man at the beginninge , when he was firste created , was vnperfite . Clemens Alexandrinus , and Iustinus helde , That the Angels fel , and effended God , in that they desired the companie of Woemen . But it shal be in vaine to stande longe herein . Dissensions emong the Fathers . For of sutche examples there is greate stoare .

To comme neare the purpose , Theophilus calleth Epiphanius Haeresiarcham , that is , The Grande Captaine , and Father of Heretiques : Gennadius saith , S. Augustine was not far of from being an Heretique . S. Hierome , Erasm in Vita Chrysostomi . writinge vnto S. Augustine , saith thus . In Epistola tua quaedam Haeretica esse iudicaui : I iudged , that there were certaine Heretical errours in your Epistle . Gennadius De Ecclesiast. Scriptoribus . Pope Bonifacius 2. saide , that Aurelius the Bishop of Carthage , and S. Augustine , and other Godly , and Learned Fathers in the Councel of Aphrica , were prickte on , and inspired by the Diuel . S. Augustine willeth S. Hierome to acknowledge his erroure , Hieronym in Epistola ad Augu. Bonifac. 2. in Epist. ad Eulaltū . August . ad Hieronym Epist. 9. and to recante . Thus be saithe , Accipe Seueritatem Christianam ad illud opus corrigendum , atque emendandum : & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 vt , dicitur , Cane : Take vnto you Christian Seueritie , to correcte and amende that Booke ( of yours ) : and recante your Erroure .

Thus mutche I thought good briefely to touche : not meaninge thereby to deface the Authoritie of the Aunciente Fathers : but sommewhat to open the truthe of M. Hardinges tale , and to shewe , that these , and other like Bishoppes , and Fathers , notwithstandinge they were Learned , and Godly , and woorthy Members of the Churche of God , yet were they not voide of theire infirmities .

Erasmus , Erasm . in Praef. in Tom. 2. Hieronymi . Ibidem . a man of greate Iudgemente , saith thus , Illis temporibus ingeniosa res fuit , esse Christianum : In those daies it was a greate pointe of Wisedome , to knowe , how to be a Christian Man .

And againe , Illa aetate in Chartis erat Fides potiùs , quàm in animo : ac penè tot erant Symbola , quot Professores : At that time ( of the Auncient Fathers ) the Faith was in Bookes rather , then in the Harte . And in a manner there were as many sundrie Creedes , as there were Professours of the Faith .

Therefore Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , the Heathens thus vpbraided the Christians , Clemens , Stromat . Lib. 7. for the striues , and dissensions , that were emong them : Vos Christiani dissidetis inter vos , & tot Sectas habetis : quae licet omnes Christianismi titulum sibi vendicent , tamen alia aliam execratur , & condemnat . Quare vestra Religio vera non est : nec à Deo originem ducit : Yee Christians dissente emonge your selues : and mainteine so many Sectes . Whiche Sectes , notwithstandinge they al Claime the title of Christian Religion , Yet one of them curseth , and condemneth an other . Therefore your Religion is not true , nor hath her beginninge , or grounde from God .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 1.

What woulde these menne ( trowe ye ) haue saide in those daies ? Whiche side would they specially then haue taken ? And whiche would they then haue foresaken ? Whiche Gospel would they haue beleeued ? Whom would they haue accoumpted for Heretiques , and whom for Catholiques ? And yet , what a stirre , and reuel keepe they this daie , onely vpon the twoo poore Names of Luther , and Zwinglius ? Bicause these twoo menne are not yet fully resolued vpon somme one certaine pointe of Doctrine , therefore would they needes haue vs thinke , that bothe of them were deceiued : that neither of them had the Gospel : and that neither of them taught the truthe aright .

M. Hardinge .

After many thinges by these Defenders alleaged , for proufe of Dissension to haue ben amonge the Apostles , the faithful people in S. Paules time , the Bishops and Holy Fathers of the primitiue Church , whereby they woulde perswade , if they coulde , that theire owne diuision into sectes , and dissensions , is not a marke of false Doctrine : at length , as though they had wonne the filde , and tried them selues proper men , triumphing ouer vs , as though we had nothing to saie , with a great courage thei demaunde this question of vs , whiche though it be but one in effecte , yet with a kinde of brauerie they seme to diuide into sundry branches , and thus they saie : What would these men ( they meane the Papistes ) then , trowe ye , haue saide in those daies ? Whiche side woulde they then haue taken , and whiche woulde they haue foresaken ? Whiche Gospel woulde they haue beleeued ? Whom woulde they haue accoumpted for Heretikes , and whom for Catholikes ?

Touchinge these foure interrogatories , A fourefold answeare to the foure questions . if we had then ben aliue , beinge of the minde we be nowe of , we would haue requirred you with foure answeares of the Holy and moste Learned Father S. Hierome , and woulde haue saide , as in the like state of times in a Learned Epistle he saide to the Learned Pope Damasus , touchinge the Heresies , whiche he founde in Syria at his firste cominge thither from Rome . Epistolarum Tomo . 2. The firste answeare . Firste , Mihi Cathedram Petri , & fidem Apostolico ore laudatam censui consulendam : inde nunc meae animae postulans cibum , vnde olim Christi Vestimenta suscepi .

Whiche woordes , taking vpon me the Person of al Faithful and Catholike folkes , thus I Englishe : In these controuersies , I haue thought good for counsel ( what I ought to beleeue ) to repaire to the Chaire of Peter , and to the faithe of the Romaine Churche praised by Paule the Apostle owne Mouthe . And from thence now require I the foode of my soule , from whence I receiued the garmentes of Christe . To speake the same more shortely , and more plainely , In the Catholike Churche I looke to haue the foode of my soule to euerlastinge Life , in whiche I was firste Christened .

Secondely we woulde with him haue saide , one speakinge for al , directinge our woordes ( as he did ) to those that be of the Catholike faithe , The second answeare . whom ye cal Papistes : Vos estis lux mundi , vos sal terrae , vos aurea vasa & Argentea : h●c testacea vasa vel lignea , Virgam ferream , & Aeternum operiuntur incendium . Ye are the Light of the Worlde , ye are the Salte of the Earth , ye are Golden and Siluerne Vessels : here ( emonge the Gospellers ) are the Earthen and Woodden Vessels , which must abide the yron Rodde , and flame Euerlastinge .

Thirdly with him ( one likewise bearing the person of al ) we would haue saide to Pius the fourth that nowe sitteth in the Peters Chaire , The thirde answeare . as he then saide to Damasus : Ego nullum primum nisi Christum sequens , beatitudini tuae , id est , Cathedrae Petri , Communione consocior . Super illam Petram aedificatam Ecclesiam scio . Quicunque extra hanc Domum agnum comederit , Prophanus est : Si quis in Arca Noë non fuerit , peribit regnante Diluuio . Makinge none , but Christe firste of al whom to folowe , I ioine in felowship of Communion with thy holines , that is to saie , with the see of Peter . Vpon that Rocke I knowe the Churche is builded . Who so euer eateth the Lambe without the compasse of this house , he is Prophane . If any remaine without the Arke of Noe , he shal be loste , when the floud raigneth .

Fourthly touchinge the Authours of this New Gospel , The fourth answeare . with the same Hierome we saie , al vnder the Person of one : Non noui Vitalem , Meletium respuo , ignoro Paulinum . Quicunque tecum non colligit , spargit , hoc est , qui Christi non est , Antichristi est ▪ Vitalis I know not , Melerius I refuse , Paulinus I wote not what he is ( these were head Heretikes in S. Hieromes time ) . Who so euer gathereth not togeather with thee ( Holy Pastour ) he scattereth abroade , that is to witte , who is not of Christes side , he is of Antichristes side . To transferre this to our selues , the names changed , the case remaininge like , for our answeare to our Gospel prelates , we saye : Luther we knowe not : Zuinglius , Oecolampadius , Bucer , Peter Martyr , Latimer , Ridly , Cranmer , Hooper , we reiecte and refuse : Caluine , Beza , Iuel , Pilkinton , Grindal , Horne , and theire felowes , what they are , we wote not . We see they are not gatherers withe the supreme Pastor of the Catholike Churche , but scatterers .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It appeareth by that hath benne already saide , that the Gospel of Christe is now misliked , & doubted of you , as it was in Olde times of the Infidels , and Heathens . Chryso . in Acta . Homil. 33. Chrysostome there of saithe thus , Venit Gentilis , & dicit , vellem fieri Christianus : Sed nescio , cui adhaeream . Multae inter vos sunt pugnae , Seditiones , ac tumuitus . Nescio , Dissensions emong the Fathers . quod dogma eligam , quod praeferam . Singuli dicunt , Ego Verum dico : The Infidel , or Heathen commeth , and saithe , I woulde be a Christian man : but I knowe not , whom I should folowe . There is mutche strife , and dissenssion , and trouble emongest you . I cannot tel , what Doctrine to chuse , to set before other . For euery one of you wil saie : I saie the Truthe . As ye agrée wel with them in Fourme of Woordes , so , I praie God , ye agree not with them in Faith , & Sprite , & contempte of God . The same Chrysostome speaking , not onely of the Heretiques , but also of the Faithful Christians , that were in his time , saith thus ▪ Chryso . in Epist. ad Galat. Cap. 1. Hanc ob causam ridiculi facti sumus , & Gentibus , & Iudaeis : dum Ecclesia in mille partes discinditur : For this cause wee are scorned , and laught at , bothe of Iewes , and Gentiles : while as the Churche is thus rente into a thousande partes .

Therefore it was not amisse , M. Hardinge , to demaunde you this question , whiche of these sides ye woulde haue folowed : and whiche of al these Gospelles ye would haue beleeued . For it maie wel be thought , that being minded as they were , ye woulde haue answeared , as they did .

But ye saie , yée woulde rather haue saide , as S. Hierome sommetime saide to Pope Damasus , touchinge the Heresies , whiche he founde in Syria .

If ye woulde vse S. Hieromes answeare , M. Hardinge , & saie vnto the Pope , as S. Hierome saide , Perhaps ye shoulde deserue no greate thankes for your laboure . For S. Hierome in that selfe same place , biside sundrie others , vtterly denieth the Primacie of the Bishop of Rome . Hieronym ad Damasum . Nullum Primum . His woordes be plaine , Ego Nullum Primum , nisi Christum , sequens , Beatitudini tuae , id est , Cathedrae Petri Communione Consocior : I folowing no First Man , ( that is to saie , No Heade , or Chiefe ) but Onely Christe , am ioined as a felowe in Communion vnto thy Blessednesse , that is to saie , to Peters Chaire . S. Hierome telleth the Pope , He knoweth No Firste , No Chiefe , No Heade , no not the Pope him selfe , but onely Christe . Againe , he saithe not , I am thral , and subiecte to thy commaundementes : But , I am ioined , Beatitudini tuae Communione Consoctor . as a Felowe , in Communion vnto thy Blessednesse . Felowship wil hardly stande with that Vniuersal power , whiche you imagine , the Pope ought to haue ouer the whole Churche of God . Verily the Pope him selfe would take it in scorne , if you this daie woulde folowe S. Hierome , and cal him your Felowe .

But S. Hierome saithe , He agreeth in Faithe , and Religion with Damasus . And what greate marueile is this , that beinge a Godly Learned man , he woulde leaue Vitalis , and Meletius , and other Heretiques , and ioine him selfe to that Bishop , whom he knewe to be Godly , & Catholique ? Hereof he writeth thus him selfe , Vineam Christi exterminant vulpes : Vt inter lacus contritos , qui aquam non habent , difficilè , Hieronym ad Damasum . vbi Fons Signatus , & Horrus ille Conclusus sit , possit intelligi . Ideò mihi Cathedram Petri , & Fidem Apostoli Ore laudatam censui consulendam : The Foxes destroie the Vineyarde of Christe : so that emonge these broken cesternes , that haue no Water , it is harde to vnderstande , where is that Sealed Fountaine , and that Enclosed Orchard . Therefore I thought it good , to herken to S. Peters Chaire , and to that Faithe , whiche was commended by the Apostles mouthe .

S. Hierome from his youthe was brought vp in Rome : He was Christened in Rome : He had benne a Studente in Rome : He had taught a Schole in Rome : He had benne Secretarie to Damasus the Bishop of Rome : He was a Prieste of Rome : And of late they haue furnished him with a Cardinalles Hatte , as if he had benne a Cardinal of Rome : In Vita Hieron . And as it is thought by somme , sauinge for somme displeasure , that certaine of the Cleregie had conceiued against him , he was like to be chosen the Bishop of Rome . What greate maruelle therefore is it , if he had somme special affection to the See of Rome ? Alphonsus de Castro sa●the , That the Franciscane Freers be sworne to Duns : Recourse to Peters . Chaire . and that he hearde a Dominicane Freere saie openly in his Sermon , that he was to be suspected , as an Heretique , Alphonsus Aduers . Haeres . Li. 1. Cap. 7. that in any thinge dissented from Thomas of Aquine . There is noman lightly , but hathe a special credite in somme One man before al others .

But how holdeth this Argumente , M. Hardinge : S. Hierome ioined with a Godly Bishop : Ergo , Wée muste ioine with a wicked Bishop ? Or , S. Hierome agréed in Faithe , and Religion with Damasus : Ergo , wée muste agrée with one , that doothe al thinges of pourpose contrarie to Damasus . So might you saie , The Godly people of the Iewes were bounde to obeie Aaron , and Moses : Ergo , al others , that folowed afterwarde , were likewise bounde to obeie Annas , and Caiphas .

The Faithe of Christe , M. Hardinge , goeth not alwaies by Succession . The Bishoppes of Rome haue benne Arians , Nestorians , Monothelites , and otherwise founde in horrible Heresies : as hereafter shal be shewed . Woulde ye in sutche cases haue recourse to him , that sitteth in Peters Chaire ? Would ye saie to sutch a one , You are the Salte of the Earthe : You are the Light of the Worlde ? Woulde ye saie , This is the Faithe , that was commended by the Apostles Mouthe ?

Truely , S. Hierome him selfe , when he saw Abuses , or Errours mainteined in the Churche of Rome , made smal accoumpte of S. Peters Chaire . For thus he saithe , Hierony . ad Euagrium . Quid mihi profers Vnius Vrbis Consuetudinem ? Potentia Diuitiarum , & paupertatis humilitas , vel sublimiorem , vel inferiorem Episcopum non facit . Coeterùm omnes Apostolorum Successores sunt . What telleste thou me of the Custome of that One Cittie ( of Rome ? ) The Power of Richesse , and the humilitie of Pouertie , cannot make a Bishop either Higher , or Lower . Al Bishoppes are the Successours of the Apostles .

As for Luther , Zuinglius , Peter Martyr , Caluine , & others , ye saie , ye know them not . Neither dooth it so greatly force , whom you liste to knowe . God geeue you Grace to knowe your sel●●s . 2. Tim. 2. The Lorde is hable to knowe his owne .

Touching the dissensions in Religion , which ye imagine to be emongest vs , I wil saie nothinge . It gréeueth you ful soare , to sée , that in al the Articles of the Faithe , and in the whole Substance of Doctrine , wée doo so quietly ioine togeather . The Ancient Father Leo , Leo in Epiphania , Sermo. 6. of the like case , saith thus ▪ Diabolus Gentium vocatione Cruciatur , & quotidiana potestatis suae destructione torquetur : dolens vtique se deseri , & Verum Regem in locis omnibus adorari . Parat fraudes : Fingit dissensiones : The Diuel is soare greeued with the callinge of the Heathens ( to the Faithe ) and with the daily decreasinge of his power : sorowing to see him selfe foresaken , and ( Christe ) the True Kinge to be woorshipped in al places . Therefore he diuiseth guiles : and imagineth dissensions .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 1.

But , Good God , what manner of felowes be these , whiche blame vs for disagreeing ? And doo al they them selues , weene you , agree wel togeather ? is euery one of them fully resolued , what to folowe ? Haue there benne no striues , no quarrelles , no debates emongest them selues at no time ? Why then doo the Scotistes & the Thomistes about that they cal Meritum Congrui , & Meritum Condigni , no better agree togeather ? Why agree they no better emonge them selues concerning Original Sinne in the Blessed Virgine : Concerninge a Solemne Vow , and a Single Vowe ? Why saie theire Canonistes that Auriculare Confession is appointed by the positiue Lawe of man : and theire Scholemen contrariwise , that it is appointed by the Lawe of God ? Why dothe Albertus Pius dissente from Caietanus ? Why dothe Thomas dissente from Lombardus , Scotus from Thomas , Occamus from Scotus , Alliacensis from Occamus ? And why doo theire Nominalles disagree from theire Realles ? And yet saie I nothinge of so many diuersities of Freres and Monkes : howe somme of them put a greate Holinesse in eatinge of Fishe , and somme in eatinge of Hearbes : somme in wearinge of shooes , and somme in wearinge of Sandalles : somme in goeinge in a Linnen garmente , and somme in woollen : somme of them called white , somme blacke : somme beinge shauen broade , and somme narrowe : somme stalkinge vpon Patens , somme goeinge barefooted : somme girte , and somme vngirte . They ought yewis to remember , there be somme of theire owne companie , whiche saie , that the Body of Christe is in his Supper Naturally : Contrarie other somme of the selfe same companie denie it vtterly . Againe , that there be others of them , which saie , the Body of Christe in the Holy Communion is rente and torne with teethe : & somme againe , that denie the same . Somme also of them there be , whiche write , that the Body of Christe in the Sacramente is quantum , that is to saie , hath his perfite quantitie in the Sacramente : Somme others againe saie , naie . That there be others of them , whiche saie , Christe did Consecrate with a certaine Diuine Power : somme , that he did the same with his Blessinge : somme againe that saie , he did it with vttering Fiue Solemne chosen woordes : and somme , with rehearsinge the same woordes afterwarde againe . Somme wil haue it , that , when Christe did speake those Fiue woordes , the Material wheaten Bread was pointed vnto by this Demonstratiue Pronoune , Hoc : Somme had rather haue , that a certaine vagum indiuiduum , as they terme it , was meante thereby . Againe , others there be , that saie , Dogges and Mise maye truely , and in very deede eate the Body of Christe : and others againe there be , that stedfastly denie it . There be others , whiche saie , that the very Accidentes of Breade and Wine maie nourishe : others againe there be , which saie , that the Substance of the Breade retourneth againe by a Miracle . What neede I saie more ? It were ouer longe , and tedious , to recken vp al. So vncertaine , and ful of doubtes is yet the whole Fourme of these mennes Religion , and Doctrine , euen emongest them selues , from whom it sprange , and grewe vp firste . For hardly at any time doo they wel agree betweene them selues : except it be peraduenture , as in times paste , the Phariseis , and Saduceis : or as Herode and Pilare accorded togeather againste Christe .

M. Hardinge .

What so euer ye bringe ▪ The dissensions , with whiche the Defenders charge the Catholike Churche . for some shewe of diuersitie and dissension to be founde emong the Caetholikes , it maie be reduced to two heades . The one conteineth a diuersitie in pointes of lerninge : the other in trades of Life . Concerninge matters of lerninge , thanked be our Lorde , for that the very enemies of the Catholike Churche , cannot charge the Catholikes with dissension in any of the groundes , and Articles of our Faithe . As for smal matters , and questions disputable on bothe sides , they maie therein dissent one learned man from an other without blame , the Faithe remaininge inuiolated .

But , good sir Defender , what meante you to name the Nominals and Reals ? Vnderstande you what they be ? If a man shoulde vpon the sudda●ne demaunde of you that question , * * A greate doubteful question . Euery poore Logician maie easily knowe it . perhaps you would be to seekinge of an answere . Sir if you be an Oxforde man , as I suppose you be , you maie remember , if euer you learned your Logike after that trade it was taught in , when we resorted to the Paruis there , what adoo was made in daily disputations for exercise of younge wittes , aboute Genus and Species , and the reste of the Vniuersals : Whether they were termini Primae , or Secundae intentionis , whether they were entia Realia , or Rationis . Whiche is a matter perteigninge to Logike , not to Diuinitie . Nowe some Schoolemen be of the opinion , that the fiue Vniuersals be termini , or nomina secundae intentionis : And they be called thereof Nominals . Some holde opinion , they are entia realia , and thereof they be named Reals , &c. In the behalfe of those Holy Religious menne , The Catholike Religious men put no holinesse in outwarde obseruances . we tell you , ye are to blame to belie them . For what Discipline and order of Life so euer they haue addicted them selues vnto , for better oportunitie to serue God : truthe is truthe , they put not greate Holinesse ( as ye saie ) in eatinge of Fishe , nor of Hearbes : in Shoes , nor in Sandals : in Linnen , nor in Wollen garmentes : in white , nor in blacke : in broade , nor in narrowe Crownes : in goinge on Patens , nor on the bare grounde : in girdinge them selues , nor in beinge Vngirded . They be not so ignorant , as to put Holinesse in suche outwarde thinges , though their obedience performed in the humble obseruation of these outwarde thinges accordinge to their rule , To what ende be those obseruances of the Religious . Elias . be an Holy thinge . These thinges they vse for restrainte of their will , and for discipline , accordinge to the order , and rule , vnder whiche , the better to serue God , they haue promised obediently and humbly to liue . Neither put they more holinesse in the thinges by you scoffed at , them Elias did in his Mantell and letherne girdle , wherewith he girded his loines : then Iohn Baptist did in Eatinge of Locustes and wilde Honie , in wearinge a garmente of Camelles heare , and in girdinge him selfe aboute the loines with a skinne .

But I praie you , 4. Reg. 1. Iohn Baptist . Sirs , who be ye ? if we woulde folowe your lightnes , haue we not like matter of diuersitie in outwarde thinges , Matth. 3. to twite you withall : but that your diuersitie is with breache of due order , and Lawe , and that of religious men is accordinge to order , and rule ? If ye thinke diuersitie in thinges of their owne Nature indifferent , as meates , apparell , shauinge , &c. woorthy to be reprehended , and deduce from thence an argumente of mutuall dissension : amonge your ministringe Cleregie is not likewise diuersitie founde ? Do not some amonge you weare square Cappes , some rounde Cappes , some butten Cappes , some onely Hattes ? Doo not some weare side gownes hauinge large sleeues , with Tippettes , whiche is not wel liked of your secte , some of more perfection Turkey gownes , Gaberdeines , Frockes , or night gownes of the moste laye fashion for auoidinge of Superstition ? The thinge is indifferent , and maye be yelded vnto , saithe the one secte : They be the Popes ragges , and maie not be worne , saith thother Secte . And therefore they will rather be iustly put from that whiche iustely they cannot keepe , then yelde one iote . Neither her Maiesties commaundement , nor their Metropolitans decree care they for . They had rather seeme to the people , whome they vse for their Clawebackes , and to whose iudgement they stande or fall , stoute Champions of their owne Gospell , then meeke folowers of Christes Gospell . Suche mighty Samsons , suche constant Laurences , your ioyly Gospell breedeth .

Some saie , Christes Body torne with teeth , how is it vnderstanded ? the Body of Christe in the Communion is torne and crusshed with Teethe , some denie it . Yea forsothe , and bothe meane right well . The hundred and thirtene Bishoppes assembled in Councell at Rome vnder Pope Nicolaus the seconde , prescribed suche forme of Recantation to Berengarius the firste Auctor of the Sacramentarie Heresie , openly there to pronounce , acknowledge , and with subscription to ratifie , as he should confesse the very true Body of Christe , not onely the Sacramente thereof , Berengarius Recantation . sensibly and in veritie to be handled with the handes of the Priestes , ‡ ‡ This was a blasphemous , and horrible erroure . to be broken and crusshed with Teethe of the Faithefull . By whiche woordes these Fathers minde was to expresse a veritie of Reall Presence , * * The true Eatinge of Christes Body is Spiritual : This imagined Eatinge with Mouthe , and Teeth , is Heathennishe , and Fantastical , and hath no truthe . a true Eatinge of Christes Body in deede , and to exclude the onely spirituall eatinge , so as the olde Fathers did Eate Christe in their Manna . Neither is thus Doctrine dissonant from the Fathers , Nominales Reales . specially from Chrysostome , who hath the like woordes , Homilia . 45. in Iohan. How so euer our Sauiour Christe consecrated , Curious questions not defined by Holy Churche in any Councell . with a certaine diuine power , or with his Almightie Blessinge , or with vtterance of woordes , or with repetinge the same woordes : what so euer the Pronoune ( Hoc ) pointeth or signifieth in the woordes of Consecration : what so euer your Dogges , and Mise haue Eaten , or your selues haue troden vnder your wicked feete : whether the Accidentes doo nourrishe , or Substance retourne : what narrow pointes so euer the schoolemen after tossinge of argumentes too and fro , as their manner is , haue agreed or disagreed vpon : the matter is subtile and curious , neither determined by definitiue sentence of the Churche in any Councell . And therefore sith is conteineth no Article of our Faithe , let vs not be offended with the whettinge and sharpeninge of their subtile wittes in matters neither to the Truthe of Gods woorde preiudiciall , nor to the vnderstandinge and iudgement of any man , hurtefull .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Touchinge your Nominalles , & Realles , M. Hardinge , if ye had benne so cunninge , & skilful , as ye make your selfe , ye would not haue sente vs backe to learne your Firste , and Seconde Intentions emongest Children . But , that ye maie vnderstande your owne erroure , and certainely see , that these twoo Houses , your Nominalles , and your Realles haue heretofore keapt a sturre , not onely in Logique , but also in your Scholastical maters of Diuinitie , without further searchinge of the bottome thereof , I praie you onely to consider these fewe Authorities .

Veselus , Veselus . sometime for his greate fame in Learninge , named Lux Mundi , writeth thus , In Nominalibus si quid Fidei contrarium putarem , hodiè remearem , vel ad Formales , vel ad Realles : If I thought there were any thinge in the Nominalles contrarie to the Faith , I would presently leaue them , and goe , either to the Formalles , or to the Realles . Illyricus De Sectis . Pag. 80. An other saithe , Ex Sententiarijs , alij Terminales , aut Nominales esse volunt : alij Reales : Of the Doctours of the Scholastical Diuinitie , somme wil be called Terminales , or Nominales , and somme Reales . An other saithe , Citiùs è Labyrinthis temet explices , Erasm . in Moria . quàm ex inuolucris Realium , Nominalium , &c. in quibus omnibus tantum est cruditionis , vt putem Apostolis ipsis opus fore alio Spiritu , si cogerentur istis de rebus cum hoc Nouo Theologorum genere conserere manus : Ye maie sooner winde your selfe out of a Maze , then out of the shiftes , and Corners of these Realles , and Nominalles &c. in whom there is sutche abundance of Learninge , y● , I thinke , the Apostles them selues should haue neede of an other Sprite , if at any time they should be driuen to encounter with this Newe kinde of Diuines : Here , M. Harding , your Nominalles , and Realles , are called a Newe kinde , not of Logicians , but of Diuines . Vdal . Zasius , De Generum obligatione . And if ye consider wel Vdalrichus Zasius , ye shal finde , that your saide Nominalles , & Realles haue intruded them selues , not onely into Diuinitie , but also into the Ciuile Lawe . Therefore it was somewhat out of season , to tel vs this tale , of your Seconde , and Firste Intentions .

Concerninge apparel , ye saie , ye sette not greate Holinesse neither in shooes , nor in Sandales , &c. Whereby ye would séeme to geeue vs to vnderstande , that ye sette somme Holinesse in these thinges , although not Greate . Neither doothe it appeare , that the Phariseis euer made any greate accoumpte of Holinesse of their garmentes . Yet notwithstandinge vnder the coloure , and shadowe thereof , they deceiued the people . And therefore Christe saithe vnto them , Woe be vnto you , ye Scribes , Matthae . 23. Marc. 12. Luk. 20. Seneca . Macrobius . and Phariseis : And vnto the people he saithe , Beware of them , that loue to goe in longe Roobes . Of sutche menne , Seneca saithe , Personam habere malunt , quàm faciem : They wil rather weare a Visarde , then a Natural face . An other saithe , Dolosi Hominis dolosae vestes : Crafty man , Crafty Cote .

But if noman euer reckened any Holinesse to be in your apparel , wherefore then was this Decrée so longe agoe written in the Councel of Gangra , Si quis Virorum putauerit Sancto proposito , Obedience . id est continentiae , conuenire , vt pallio v●atur , Holinesse in Apparel . tanquam ex eo Iustitiam habiturus , &c. Anathema sit : If any man thinke it agreeable to his holy purpose , Concil. Cangren . Cap. 12. Chrysostom . in Matthae . Homil. 43. of Continente life , to weare a Cloke , as though thereby he maie be Iustified , &c. Accursed be he . Or , wherefore doothe S. Chrysostome crie out againste sutche folie , vsed , as it maie appeare , in his time ? O impietatem : Maiorem Sanctitatem in vestimentis suis volunt ostendere , quàm in Corpore Christi &c. Vt desperans de Misericordia Dei , confidat in veste Hominis . O the wickednesse hereof : They wil shewe more holinesse in their owne apparel , then in the Body of Christe , &c. That he , that despaireth in Goddes Mercie , should put his truste in the garmente of a Man .

Or , wherefore doothe Thomas of Aquine tel vs so certainely , Thom. Aquinas . that the wearinge of Francise , or Dominikes Cowle had power to remoue Sinne , as wel as the Sacramente of Baptisme ? Or , wherefore doothe your Bishop , in halowinge the Priestes Vestimentes , In Pontifical . In Benedic . ad Vestimenta Sacerdotal . saie thus , Vt Sacerdotes tui hac Sacra Veste induti , ab omnibus impulsionibus , seu tentationibus malignorum Spirituum muniti , & defensi esse Mereantur : That thy Priestes wearinge this Holy vesture , maie deserue to be shielded , and defended from al assaultes , and tentations of the wicked Sprites .

Your Doctoure Durande furnisheth out your Prieste at Masse in his Complete Harnesse , Durand . in Rationali , Lib. 3. Cap. 1. a Capo a Pie . Amictus est pro Galea &c. His amice , saithe he , is his Headpeece His Albe , is his Coate of Maile : His Gyrdle , is his Bowe : His Subcingle , is his Quiuer : His Stole , is his Speare : His Maniple , is his Clubbe : His Chisible , is his Targette . And in the ende he saithe , Haec sunt Arma , quibus Pontifex , vel Sacerdos armari debet , contra Spirituales nequitias pugnaturus : These be the Pieces , wherewith the Bishop , or Prieste muste be Harnessed , that wil fight againste the Spiritual wickednesse . Thus mutche , I trowe , he would not haue saide , without somme opinion of special Holinesse .

To be thorte , wherefore doo your Doctours kéepe sutche hote Schooles emongest them selues , Extra De Conse . Eccle. vel Allaris . Quod in dubijs . whether , if the Sextine happen to mende his halowed Vestimente with a threede vnhalowed , the whole Vestimente be not thereby becomme vnhalowed ? How could these so doubteful maters euer haue fallen in question emongest your Felowes , if ye had benne fully , and thorowly persuaded , that there is no Holinesse in your apparel ? Lactant. Lib. 6. Cap. 25. The Anciente Father Lactantius saithe , Vestes , Gemmas , & coetera , quae habentur in pretio , si quis puret Deo chara , is planè , quid Deus sit , nescit : If any man thinke , that Apparel , Pretious Stones , or other like thinges , that wee haue in estimation , are pleasant , or delectable vnto God , vndoubtedly he knoweth not , what is God .

But , ye saie , what so euer your Apparel be , yet your Obedience is very Holy . The Obedience , In vita Iohannis Damasceni . ye meane , is , to too what so euer your Abbate shal bidde you doo : as , to carrie baskettes from Palestina to Damasco : To sitte Seuen yéeres togeather in silence , without speakinge of any woorde : For the space of tweluemoonethes , twise euery daie to water a deade trée : and briefely , Cassand . Lib. 4 Cap. 27. to doo what so euer fonde businesse ye be commaunded : As it is written of one , that at the Commaundemente of his Abbate , threwe out his childe into the streame . This , I trowe , is that Obedience , that ye commende to be so Holy .

But S. Paule saithe , 1. Corinth . 7. Ambros . 1. Corinth . 7. Esai . 1. Ye are bought with price : Make not your selues Sclaues vnto Menne . And S. Ambrose saithe , Scrui Hominum sunt , qui humanis se subijciunt Superstitionibus : They are the Sclaues of Menne , that make them selues subiecte vnto Mennes Superstitions . God him selfe saithe vnto you , Who required these thinges at your Handes ? Hieronym . ad Lustochium , De virginitate seruanda . S. Hierome saithe , Viros fuge , quos videris Cathenatos : quibus foeminei , contra Apostolum , sunt crines : hircorum barba : nigrum pallium : & nudi Patientiâ frigoris pedes . Haec omnia argumenta sunt Diaboli : Plee those menne , that thou shalte see goe in Chaines : that , contrarie to the Apostles commaundemente , weare longe heare , as Weemen : Choise of Apparel . that are bearded like Goates : that haue vpon them a blacke Cloke : that goe barefoote , patiently bearinge the colde . Al these be tokens of the Diuel . Alphonsus de Castro , Alphonsus Aduer . Haeres . Lib. 1. Cap. 7. one of your owne , saith , Paulus quidem iussit Captiuare intellectum nostrum , sed in obsequium Christi , non autem in obsequium Hominum : In deede Paule bath Commaunded vs to submitte our vnderstandinge , but vnto the Obedience of Christe , not vnto the Obedience of Menne .

The Godly learned menne , at whose personnes it pleaseth you so rudely to scoffe , that refuse either to goe in your Apparel , or otherwise to shewe them selues like vnto you , haue age sufficient , and can answeare for them selues . Notwithstandinge , thus mutche I maie saie in their behalfe : Neither doo they commende any manner of Apparel , as Holy : nor doo they condemne any Apparel , as Vnholy . That is your proper , and peculiare erroure , M. Hardinge , to make so déepe accoumpte of outwarde Shewes .

They knowe , Euseb. Lib. 4. Cap. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that Eusebius saithe , Iustinus Martyr Preached the Gospel of Christe , beeinge apparelled as an Heathen Philosopher . They know , that Iohn the Euangelist preached Goddes woorde at Ephesus , wearinge vpon him the Bishoppes Brouche , as if he had benne a Bishop of the Iewes . S. Augustine saithe , Nihil sané ad istam pertinet Ciuitatem , quo Habitu , vel more viuendi , si non est Contra Diuina praecepta , istam Fidem , qua peruenitur ad Deum , quisque Sectetur . Vnde ipsos quoque Philosophos , Euseb. li. 3 ca. 41. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Augustin . De Ciuita . Lib. 19. Cap. 19. Helar . in Psalmum . 67. quando Christiani fiunt , non Habitum , vel consuetudinem victus , quae nihil impedit Religionem , sed falsa Dogmata mutare compellit : It perteineth nothinge vnto this Cittie ( of God ) , in what kinde of Apparel , or in what order of Life , so that it be not againste God , any man folowe this Faithe , whereby wee comme vnto God . Therefore , when Philosophers becomme Christians , the Churche compelleth them not to change their Apparel , or manner of Liuinge , whiche can nothinge hinder Religion , but onely shee compelleth them to change their False Opinions . S. Hilarie saithe , Ad Ecclesiae decus detracta à Diabolo Gentium spolia diuiduntur : The spoiles of the Heathens , taken from the Diuel , are diuided to the Furniture , and Ornamente of the Churche of God .

S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . Aduersus Pelagia . Lib. 1. Episcopus , Presbyter , & Diaconus , & reliquus Ordo Ecclesiasticus in Administratione Sacrificiorum , Candida Veste procedit : The Bishop , Prieste , and Deo●on , and the other Ecclesiastical Companie , at the Administration of the Sacrifice , comme foorthe in white Apparel . S. Chrysostome vnto the Priestes , and Deacons saithe thus , Chrysostom . in Matth. Homi. 83. Haec est dignitas vestra , haec Corona : non quia , induti Tunicam candidissimam , per Ecclesiam ambulatis : This is your dignitie : this is your Garlande : not that ye walke through the Churche in white Apparel .

Thei saie not therefore , that the Apparel is either Holy , or Vnholy . But they maie truely saie , The same Apparel of your parte hath benne fowly abused to filthy purposes . They maie iustly saie , they woulde not gladly in any appearance shewe them selues like vnto them , that haue so vntruely , and so longe deceiued the worlde . And herein they are not without sundrie Authorities , and Examples of the Godly Fathers . August . Confess . Lib. 6. Cap. 2. Quòd Superstitioni Gentilium essent suntlima . ●regor . Lib. 1. Epist. 41. S. Augustine saith , His Mother leafte bringinge of Wine , and Cakes to the Churche , not for that it was vngodly , or vnlawful of it selfe so to doo , but onely for that shée was warned , It was a resemblance of the superstition of the Heathens . S. Gregorie speakinge of the three Sprinklinges , or Dippinges into the Holy Fonte , saith thus , In Vna Fide nihil efficit Consuetudo Ecclesiae diuersa . Tamen , quòd Haeretici id facerent , negant idem esse à Catholicis faciendum : The Faithe beinge One , the diuersitie of Customes hurteth nothinge . Yet for as mutche as Heretiques haue thus donne , they saie , that the Catholiques maie in no wise doo the s●me : Not for that the thinge it selfe was il , but for that they would not seeme to folowe Heretiques .

Gabriel Biel saith , the Churche of Rome thought it good , to vse common Leauened Breade at the Ministration of the holy Mysteries , leste in vsinge vnleauened Breade , Gabriel Lectio . 38. they should be thought to folowe Ebion the Heretique . Tertullian reasoneth vehemently , Tertul. De Corona Militis . that a Christian man ought not to goe with a Laurel Garlande vpon his Heade : and that for none other cause , but onely for that the Heathens vsed so to goe . Wherupon Beatus Rhenanus geueth this note : Non solùm ab his temperandum fuit , B. Rhenan . in Librum De Corona Militis . quae manifestam prae se ferrent impietatem , sed etiam ab illis , quae possent indifferentia vocari , hoc est , quae essent , neque Bona , neque Mala : partim , ne quisquam infirmior ex Christianis offenderetur : partim , ne Ethnici in suis erroribus confirmarentur , dum rectius putant esse , quod etiam Christianos obseruare vident : It was meete for them to refraine , not onely from sutche thinges , as haue a manifeste shewe of wickednesse , but also from sutche thinges , as mighte be called indifferent , that is to saie , neither Good , nor il : partely , leste any of the weaker Christians shoulde be offended : partely also , leste the Heathens should be encourraged in their errours , thinkinge that thinge , for that the Christians them selues doo it , to be the better . Tertul. De Idololatria . Againe Tertullian saithe , De hoc primo consistam , An cum ipsis quoque Nationibus Communicare in huiusmodi Seruus Dei debeat : siue habitu , siue victu , vel quo alio genere laetitiae eorum : Herein wil I firste stande , whether it be lawful for the Seruaunte of God , to Communicate with whole Nations in sutche thinges : either in Apparel , or in Diet , or in any other kinde of theire Mirthe . And S. Basile saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Let needelesse , Basil . De Natali Christi . Origen . in Hieremi . Homil. 3. and superfluous thinges be put to Silence in the Churche of God . To be shorte , Origen saithe , Quaerendum est , quid hoc sit , quod sequitur , Non fiant ei reliquiae : Ne aliqua , inquit , rescindatis Chaldaeorum , aliqua reseruetis . Ob id iubet , ne pusillum quidem relinquatur in ea : Wee muste examine , what is meante by this , that foloweth , Leaue her no manner of remnante . The meaninge is this , Abolishe not certaine of the Superstitions of the Chaldees , reseruinge certaine : Therefore he commaundeth , that nothinge be leaste in her , be it neuer so litle . How be it , I take not vpon me to enter into the Conscience of others : Roman. 14. Let eche man abounde in his owne sense .

Yet , M. Hardinge , for as mutche as ye make sutche a reckeninge of your Antiquitie , as if al your Orders , and Ceremonies had vndoubtedly benne conueied ouer vnto you from Christe him selfe , and his Apostles , maie it therefore please you to vnderstande , that at the beginninge there appeareth no sutche distinction , or difference of Apparel in the Ministerie . Valafredus Abbas saithe , Veteres Communi indumento vtentes Celebrabant Missas : The olde Fathers saide Masse ( that is to saie , Ministred the Holy Communion ) hauinge on their owne common Apparel .

S. Augustine in his Rule to his Clerkes , August . In Regula Monachor . Hieronym . ad Marcellam , vt commigret Bethleem . or Monkes , writeth thus , Ne sit Notabilis habitus vester : Let not your Apparel be Notable . S. Hierome , describinge the order of the Churche at Bethleem , saithe thus : In veste , nulla discretio : nulla admiratio : Vtcunque placuerit incedere , nec detractionis est , nec laudis : In Apparel , there is no difference : there is no woonderinge . How so euer any man liste to goe , it is neither sclandered , nor praised . And Pope Coelestinus the firste saithe , Discernendi sumus à plebe , Coelestin . I. In Episto . ad Episcopas Gallia , Ca. I. Doctrina , non Veste : Conuersatione , non Habitu : Mentis puritate , non cultu . Si enim studere incipiemus Nouitati , Traditum nobis à Patribus ordinem calcabimus , vt Iocum vacuum Superstitionibus faciamus . Docendi potiùs sunt rudium animi , quàm illudendi . Nec Imponendum est illorum oculis , sed Mentibus infundenda praecepta sunt : Wee muste be knowen from the Laie people , by our Doctrine , not by our Coate : By our Conuersation , not by our Apparel : By the purenesse of our Minde , not by the attiere of our Body . For if wee once beginne to diuise Nouelties , wee shal treade our Fathers Orders vnder foote , and make roome for Superstition . The mindes of the ignorante ought to be taught , and not to be mocked . Neither maie wee goe aboute to dosel the●●ies : but rather ought to powre wholesome Doctrine into their Hartes . To conclude , it is noted in your owne Glose vpon the Clementines , Choise of Apparel . Clerici Saeculares non habent certum habitum , Cl●● p●●●ct . Cap. 1. Gloss . vl●●ms . cùm non fit expressum in iure de Colore , vel Forma : per quae , vel quorum alterum oportet habitum discerni : Seculare Priestes haue no certaine Apparel appointed them , for as mutche as there is no expresse mention made , neither of the Coloure , nor of the Fourme : by whiche twoo differences , or by the one of them , Apparel muste be discerned .

Goddes name be Blessed . The Religion of Christe maie stande bothe with , and without these thinges . But without sutche proppes , the whole rooffe of your Religion muste néedes comme downe : as hauinge nothinge els , but shewes , and vanities , to beare it vp .

But leste ye should conceiue ouer greate opinion of so smal a mater , & thinke , there can be none other Apparel méete , and comely for the Cleregie , but onely youres , or , that without the same , the whole Churche of Christe must néedes goe to waste : maie it like you therfore to remember , what the Ancient Father Origen hath written of you in this behalfe : Origen . in Matthae . Tracta. 25. Non solùm apud Iudaeos , sed etiam apud nos , multos est inuenire , peccata huiusmodi peccantes , & glutientes Camelos , in eo , quòd maxima delicta committunt . Et oportet huiusmodi homines frequenter considerare , Quomodò in rebus minimis Religionem suam ostendant : Et bene eos Hypocritàs appellat : Wee maie finde , not onely emongest the Iewes , but also emongest our selues , menne that offende in sutche faultes , swalowinge downe whole Camels , in that they Commit greate offenses . And wee ought wel to marke sutche manner of Menne , howe they countenance out their Religion with smal maters . Very wel , and iustly Christe calleth them Hypocrites .

Posidonius , Posidoni . in vita August writinge the life of S. Augustine , saithe thus , Vestis eius , & calceamenta , & lectualia ex moderato , & compe●enu habitu erant : nec nitida nimi●mx , nec abiecta plurimùm . Quia his plerunque vel iactare se nimiùm homines solent , vel abijcere : ex vtroque non quae Iesu Christi , sed quae sua sunt , quaerentes : Augustines Apparel , shooes , and Beddinge were of a Competente , and meane makinge : neither ouer freashe , nor ouer homely . For in sutche thinges menne vse oftentimes , either to vaunte , or to abase them selues aboue measure : in either side seekinge their owne , and not that perteineth to Iesus Christe .

S. Augustine saithe , August . De Serm●● . Domini in ●onte , Lib. 2. Ex coeteris eius operibus potest conijci , vtrùm hoc Contemptu superflui cultus , an Ambitione aliqua faciat . Quia & sub ouina pelle cauendos Lupos Dominus praecepit : Wee maie geather by the reste of his woorkes , whether he doo thus ( attiere him selfe ) in contempte of Superfluous Apparel , or els for Ambition , that he ●aie be noted . For our Lorde hath commaunded vs to beware of the Woulfe , euen vnder the Sheepes skinne . August . in eodem Libro . Againe he saithe , Illum parcum habitum , ac necessarium etiam Simulatores saepius vsurpant , vt incautos decipiant : That homely kinde of Apparel , standinge onely in necessaries , Hypocrites , and dissemblers doo for the more parte countrefcite , to the ende they maie deceiue menne , before they bew●re . Thus mutche onely by the waie , leste yée should thinke more of your Coate , then it is woorthy .

Some saie , The Body of Christe in the Sacrament is Torne , and crusshed with Teethe : and somme denie it . Yea forsoothe , saie you , and bothe meane right wel . Thus would ye not saie , M. Hardinge , if ye knowe , what it were to Eate the Body of Christe .

S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . De Coena Domini . Est Cibus Mentis , non ventris● It is the Meate of our Minde , not of our Belly : wée Eate it with the Spiritual Toothe of our Faithe , not with the Material Toothe of our Body . Your very Glose , be it neuer so blinde , was able to see , that these woordes , To teare , and to Crusshe Christes Body with your bodily Teethe , can hardly haue so Catholique , and so good a meaninge , as you imagine . De conse. Dist. 2. Ego Berenga . in Glossa . The woordes thereof be these , Nisi sanè intelligas verba Berengarij , in Maiorem incides Haeresim , quàm ipse habuit . Et ideò omnia referas ad Species ips●s : Onlesse thou discretely vnderstande these woordes of Berengarius , Dogs , & Mise . Christes Body Torne , & Crusshed with Teethe . thou shalte fal into a greater Heresie , then he had any . Therefore these woordes muste haue relation to the Fourmes , and not vnto Christes very Body . It foloweth therefore that the Catholique Construction , that you geather hereof , muste néedes be this : Christes Body is Crusshed , and Torne with Teethe , that is to saie , Christes Body is not Crusshed , nor Torne with Teethe . Germans lippes be not so farre a sunder , but ye maie easily ioine them togeather by sutche Constructions .

But Chrysostome saith in like wise , Dentes inserimus in Carnes Christi : Wee thrust our Teethe into the Fleashe of Christe . O M. Hardinge , you can not be ignorante of Chrysostomes extraordinarie , Chrysostomus in Encaenijs . and vehement manner of speache : and therefore yée are the more to blame , thus of purpose , and witingly to abuse your Reader . For , as Chrysostome saithe , Wee thruste our Teethe into Christes Fleashe , So he saithe likewise , Christe is slaine vpon the Communion Table , and his Bloude is powred from his side . Likewise he saithe vnto a sclaunderer of his neighboure , Chrysostom . Ad Roman . Homil. 21. Linguam tuam humano Sanguine rubefecisti : Thou haste died thy tongue redde in Mannes Bloude . So S. Hierome saithe , Detractores viuis Carnibus Saturantur : Sclaunderers are filled with liue Fleashe . So saithe S. Cyprian , Cruci Haeremus : Hierony . in Iobum . Cap. 19. Cyprian . De Coena Domini . Sanguinem sugimus : & intra ipsa Redemptoris nostri vulnera linguam figimus : Wee Cleaue to the Crosse : and sucke the Bloude : and wee fasten our Tongues within the woundes of our Redeemer .

These , and other like phrases commonly vsed in the Anciente Fathers , maie not be racked to the extremitie of the woordes : but rather ought fauourably to be applied to the meaninge : whiche was , by the Material Toothe , and Tongue of the Body , to expresse the Spiritual , and inwarde Eatinge , and suckinge of the Minde . August . De Doctrin . Christian . Lib. 3. Cap. 16. So S. Augustine saithe , Figura ergo est , praecipiens Passioni Domini communicandum , & suauiter , atque vtiliter recondendum in memoria , quòd Caro Christi Crucifixa pro nobis , & vulnerata sit : Therefore it is a Figure , or a Figuratiue phrase of speache : commaundinge vs to be Partakers of Christes Passion , and comfortably , and profitably to laie vp in our Hartes , that his Fleashe was Crucified , and wounded for our sakes .

As for your Consecration , Corpus quantum , Non quantum , Non per modum quanti , Indiuiduum Vagum , &c. whiche lately were the Substantiallest pointes of al your Doctrine , it is sufficient for you now to saie , They are no Articles of your Faithe . Sutche Grace haue you , for aduantage , to make your Faithe more , or lesse , at your pleasure . Touchinge your Dogges , and Mise , whether they Eate the very Body of Christe , or no , and that Substantially , Uerily , and in Déede , ye séeme stil to staie in doubte , as not yet beinge wel assured of this Article of your Faithe . But this is a moste certaine , and vndoubted Article of our Faithe , that no Creature can Eatè the Body of Christe , but he , that is a Member of Christes Body . S. Augustine saithe , Hoc est manducare illam escam , Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 26. & illum potum Bibere , in Christo manere , & Christum Manentem in se habere : This is the Eatinge of that meate , and the Drinkinge of that Drinke : for a Man to dwel in Christe , and to haue Christe dwellinge within him . And therefore wée saie , Who so euer wil holde , that a Dogge , or a Mouse maie Eate the very Body of Christe , and that Really , and in deede , or who so staggereth , or doubteth , whether it maie be so , or no , Accursed be he .

You saie , your Contentions bitwene your twoo contrarie Armies , the Thomistes , & the Scotistes , & other Schoolemenne , stande onely in certaine termes Metaphysical : As , vtrùm Ens , & Vnum differant ratione , an reipsa : The Truthe whereof is very agreeable to the reste of your Doctrine . For , to leaue a whole worlde of the endlesse contentions that are emong you , Alphonsus , one of your owne Doctours , saithe , Thomistes . Scotistes . that one of your Thomistes doubted not to pronounce openly in the behouse of his Maister , Quisquis à B. Thomae sententia discesserit , suspectus de Haeresi est censendus : Alphons . De Haeresib . Li. 1. Ca. 7. Who so euer foresaketh the iudgement of Thomas of Aquine , muste be taken , as suspected of Heresie . I thinke , ye vse not to place your Heresies in Termes Metaphysical .

Erasmus , that liued in that age , and vnderstoode of the furies of your Schooles , saithe thus , Erasmus contra Latomum . Qui Thomam sequuntur , & à Scoto , & à Gersone dissentiunt , eos pené habent pro Haereticis : They that folowe Thomas , and dissente from Duns , and Gerson , accompte them in a manner as good as Heretiques .

Petrus à Soto , and Catharinus , were bothe Learned menne : bothe of your side : bothe sworne to the Pope : bothe presente at your late Chapter at Tridente . Yet thus doothe the one of them gréete the other : Petrus à Soto Contra Catharinum . Tu permanes in sensu damnato per Synodum : Thou remainest stil in a sense condemned by the Councel . Catharinus condemneth Cardinal Caietan for twoo hundred sundrie errours , & somme of them he calleth wicked , and Antichristian . These Termes must néedes be very Metaphysical , M. Hardinge , that can yelde you sutche Heretical , & Antichristian errours .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 1.

They were beste therfore to goe , and sette peace at home rather amonge them selues . Of a truthe , Vnitie , and Concorde doothe best becomme Religion : Yet is not Vnitie the sure & certaine marke , whereby to know the Churche of God . For there was the greatest Vnitie , that might bee , amongest them , that woorshipped the Golden Calfe , and amonge them , whiche with one voice iointly cried against our Saueour Iesus Christe , Crucifie him . Neither , bicause the Corinthians were vnquieted with priuate dissensions : or bicause Paule did square with Peter , or Barnabas with Paule : or bicause the Christians vpon the very beginninge of the Gospel , were at mutual discorde , touchinge some one mater , may wee therefore thinke , there was no Churche of God amongest them . And , as for those personnes , whome they vpon spite cal Zuinglians , & Lutherans , in very deede they of bothe sides be Christians , good Frendes , & Brethren . They varie not bitwixte them selues vpon the Principles , & Fundations of oure Religion , nor as touchinge God , or Christe , or the Holy Ghoste , or the meanes of Iustification , or of euerlastinge life , but vpon one onely question , whiche is neither weighty , nor greate : neither mistruste wee , or make doubte at al , but they wil shortely be agreed . And if there bee any of them , whiche haue other opinion , than is meete , we doubte not , but ere it bee longe , they wil put aparte al affections , and names of parties , & that God wil reuele the truthe vnto them : so that by better consideringe , and searchinge out of the matter , as once it came to passe in the Councel of Chalcedon , al causes , and seedes of dissension shal bee throughly plucte vp by the roote , and be buried , and quite foregotten for euer . Whiche God graunte .

M. Hardinge .

These Defenders be like in conditions to suche honest women , as commonly we call Scoldes . Because vnitie pleaseth you not , as beinge that through lacke whereof your newe Churche is of al good men detested , and of the meanest very muche suspected , ye saie it is not a sure and a certaine marke , whereby to know the Churche of God . Yeas , Maisters , amonge other notes and markes of the true Churche , Vnitie is one . Not euery Vnitie , but Vnitie in the Holy Ghost , whiche geueth life to that one Body the Churche , whereof euery faithful is a member , and Christe the Head , and powring Charitie abroade in our Hartes , so linketh al right beleeuers togeather in the bonde of peace , as they al saie one thing , thinke one thing , sauer one thing . The Vnitie , that ●s the note and marke of the true Church , whereof wee speake , is that , for whiche the Churche is called one ▪ and beinge gathered and knitte togeather , professeth Vnitie of Faithe , of good wil and mutual love togeather , and of Sacramentes . The Vnitie of them who worshipped the Golden Calfe , and with one consent againste our Sauiour cried , Crucifige , was farre distant from the Vnitie , whiche is a note of the Churche , and is the woorke of the Holy Ghost . Suche is the Vnitie of the Deuils , who conspire against Christ and al his with one consente . Such Vnitie is oftentimes in Theeues : such Vnitie is founde in you , and all your sectes . For be ye neuer so diuerse and at variaunce within your selues , yet ye io●ne togeather in wicked amitie and Vnitie against the Church of Christ . And therefore S. Augustine compareth you , and all such as ye be , to Samsons foxe● , that were sundred by the heads , and tied togeather by the tayles .

Neither saie we that amonge them , who vary in small pointes , and thinges not perteininge to the groundes of Faithe , 1. Corin. 1. Gal. 2. Act. 15. there is no Churche . For all that certaine of the Corinthians in the Primitiue Churche were at square , howe so euer Paule tolde Peter that he thought good , though Barnabas and Paule agreed not about Iohn Marke , yet were they of Christes Churche : what els ? But where ye bringe this for excuse of the Luth●rans and the zwinglians , and other sectes spronge out of them , the cause is not like pardye . For saie on what ye liste , and lie so longe as ye liste , their dissensions can not be dessembled : muche lesse can they be accorded , &c.

Yet lest they , whose fortune is not to see ought thereof written els where , should mistrust my reporte , as all do espie your lyinge : the woordes of Nicolaus Gallus your owne Doctor of Luthers scoole , here I will rehearse : In Thesibus & Hypotyposibus , fol. vlt. Non sunt leues inter nos concertationes de rebus leuibus , sed de sublimibus doctrinae Christianae articulis , de lege , & euangelio , de iustificatione , & bonis operibus , de Sacramentis . &c. The strifes ( sateth he ) that be amongest vs , be not light , nor of light matters , but of the highe Articles of Christian ●octrine , namely of the lawe and of the Gospel , of iustification , and of good woorkes , of the Sacramentes , &c. Here , as ye see , he rekeneth vp a greate many of the weightiest pointes of our Religion , whereof they d●ssent amonge themselues . But I doubte , what I maye call weighty and great , seinge these good felowes call the controuersie , whiche is betwixte the Lutherans and the zwinglians , concerninge the Body of our Saucour Christe , neither weighty nor greate . But as they make a foule lie therein , so do they also in sayinge , they vary not betwixte them selues , but vpon one onely question . Of the dissension that is betweene the Lutherans , and Zwinglians , thus pittifully complaineth Nicolaus Amsdorffius in his Booke entituled Publica confessio purae Doctrinae , him selfe beinge an earnest Lutheran : The worlde goeth with vs worse and worse dayly . All thinges doo prognosticase the vtter ruine of the Gospell , and that in place of the Gospell , we shall haue nothinge but mere errours , and the same very notable . ( Then after a fewe woordes ) nowe Brenttus ( saithe he ) and the Adiaphoristes ( they be a speciall secte of the Lutherans ) beinge at the Communication or conference at Wormes , would not condemne zwinglius and Osiander , because they were ●rimme men in the tongues , and well seene in Humanitie . And as for vs and our side , because we refused to agree vnto that communication onlesse they were condemned , they dressed vs vily with theire scoffes and railinges , thrust vs out of the communication , and compelled vs to goe awaie , &c. Item after a fewe :

There be that saie , they condemne zuinglianisme , but the preface of Brentius to Maister Iames the minister of Goppingen his booke , witnesseth farre otherwise . For there they goe about ( a Gods name ) to conciliat good father Luther and Zuinglius , and make them friendes one with an other . Quod planè impossibile est . Quis enim vnquam audiuit contradictoria posse redigi in concordiam ? Whiche is impossible : for who euer hearde , that contradictions maye be accorded ? ( But the Maisters of the Apologie make no doubte at all , but they wil shortly be aggreed . ) Suche childishe and impossible thinges they sticke not to set foorthe , Vnitie . who would be compted the teachers of the worlde , as though we were but blockes and Asses . But as for the heresies and errours of Zuinglius and Osiander , with a quiet conscience we can not embrace . Neither can we subscribe and yelde to their departinge away , and newe guegawes , whiche haue diuided them selues from Luther . Thus far Amsdorffius , and muche more there to the same purpose , which here I leaue to blot the paper withall . To conclude , thus all men may plainely see , how the maisters of this defence be conuinced of foule lyinge by their owne Doctours and scholefelowes , beside the thinge it selfe , that geueth manifest euidence againste them . But such stuffe in their writinges and Preachinges is not geason . Leauinge others , I reporte me to M. Iuelles late sermon made at Paules Crosse on the Sondaie before Ascension daye laste , in whiche ( if vniforme reporte made by sundry there present be true ) he abused certaine Honorable , and woorshipfull personages , and of common people a greate multitude , with lies woorthy rather to be chastised by lawes , then to be confuted with woordes . But be it as it is written , Apocal. 22. Qui in sordibus est , sordescat adhuc .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It pitieth me , M. Hardinge , to see your trifling●e . If ye thought it so good skil , for aduantage of your cause , to compare vs to scoldes , wherefore then did not you , although not through your whole Booke , yet at leaste in this selfe same place , where ye so deepely charge vs with scoldinge , refraine better from sutche wilde speaches , as might seeme to proue your selfe a scolde ? For , I beseche you , cal your woordes a litle to remembrance : and consider indifferently , what weemen they be , that commonly vse the like . Thus ye saie , Euen so , good Sirs : proudely , wickedly , and fondely yee obiecte : yee shewe your Clerkely prowes : yee Bragge : yee boaste : Now haue you tolde your scoldinge tale : Yee ioine in wicked amitie againste the Churche of Christe : The founders of your Churche : The Apostles of your Gospel : Yee are conuinced of foule lieinge : Al menne doo espie your lieinge : lie on so longe , as yee liste : He that is filthy , let him be filthy stil . These be your woordes , M. Hardinge , altogeather in one place . If you can finde so many the like in al our whole Apologie , condemne vs hardly , and cal vs Scoldes .

Vnitie wée loue , & Honoure it , as the greatest comforte of Christian hartes . But if Vnitie be the onely , and vndoubted token of the Churche of God , woe then be to you , and to your felowes . For by that token , agreeinge so il emongest your selues , yee shoulde seeme to haue no Churche .

But , as wee haue saide , Al thei , that agree togeather , are not therefore euermore of the Churche . Luk. 23. Psalm. 2. Herode , and Pilate were made frendes , and agreed togeather . Dauid saithe , The Kinges and Princes of the earthe haue mette , & agreed togeather againste the Lorde , and againste his Christe . S. Iohn saithe of the frendes , Apocalyp. 17. and fauourers of Antichriste , Hi vnum Consilium habent , & vires , ac potestatem suam tradent Bestiae : hi pugnabunt cum Agno : These shal haue al one Counsel ( and one Minde ) : and shal deliuer ouer their strength , and their power vnto the Beaste : and shal fight against the Lambe .

Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in Matthae . Homil. 29. Expedit & ipsis Daemonibus , obaudire sibi inuicem in Schismate : It is good euen for the Diuels them selues , to be obediente one of them vnto an other in their Diuision . Symmachus , and other like maineteiners of the Heathenishe Idolatrie , Ambros . Lib. 5. Epist. 30. saide , Aequum est , quicquid omnes colunt , vnum putari : It is meete , that , what so euer al menne woorship , be counted One. And thus woulde they seeme to holde by Vnitie .

If your Vnitie , M. Hardinge , be so sounde , and so certaine , as ye woulde séeme to make it , why then doo you condemne your selues , one an other , of Heresie ? Certainely Heresie importeth Diuision , and no greate Vnitie . The whole shewe , and Substance of your Vnitie standeth in this , To geeue eare to your selues , & to put Christe to silence . But the true , and Christian vnitie is this , That the whole Flocke of Christe , Iohn . 10. heare the voice of the onely Shephearde , and folowe him . The bande of Vnitie , is simple Veritie : Whiche , M. Hardinge , for as mutche as yee haue forsaken , ye haue no greate cause to talke mutche of Vnitie .

As for Sampsons Foxetailes , it seemeth , ye lackte somewhat , to plaie withal . Otherwise they serue you here to no greate purpose . For if there be any dissension emongest vs , it is not in any Article of the Faithe , but onely in somme particulare pointe of learninge : The like whereof hath benne bitwéene S. Augustine , and S. Hierome , and others the Learned , Godly , and Catholique Fathers of the Churche . And thus , contrarie to Sampsons Foxes , notwithstandinge one , or other haue benne diuided in somme certaine Conclusion , as it were in the tailes , yet wée ioine thorowly al togeather in one Heade , in one Gospel , in one waie of Saluation , and in one summe of Religion : and al togeather with one Mouthe , and one Sprite glorifie God , the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe .

Concerninge the disagreemente , that is bitwéene the Lutherans , & the Zuinglians , touchinge the Beeinge of the Body of Christe in one onely place , or in many , wée saie , that in respecte either of Saluation , or of other Article , of God the Father , or of the Sonne , or of the Holy Ghoste , or of any other the Groundes , & Principles of the Christian Faithe , it is not weighty . In that respecte wee speake it onely . Otherwise wee saie , the erroure is weighty . Sutche errours in sundrie the Anciente Fathers haue benne dissembled , and paste in silence . S. Hilarie séemeth to saie , Hilar. De Trinita . Lib. 10 Hominis habitus est : Origo non Hominis . that Christe receiued not Fleashe of the Blessed Virgin : And , that the same Fleashe of Christe was impassible , and coulde feele no griefe .

Origen saithe , Quidam putant , Christum in Futuro Saeculo iterum pati oportere , &c. Somme menne thinke , that in the worlde to comme Christe muste suffer in his Body , or be Crucified againe . Naturam non habens ad dole●dum . Brentius seemeth to holde , that Christes Body is infinite , and in al places , as is the Godhedde : whiche erroure , it seemeth , was defended by somme in S. Augustines time . And therefore he saithe , Cauendum est , Origen . ad Roman . Ca. 6. Li. 5. Brentius . ne ita Diuinitatem astruamus Hominis , vt Veritatem Corporis auferamus : We must take heede , wee doo not so maineteine y● Diuine Nature of Christe beinge man , that wee take awaie the Truthe of his Body . These errours , notwithstandinge they were greate in them selues , yet in respecte of other greater errours , haue benne dissembled . Augustin . Epist. 57. Ad Dardan . Iacob . Andreae De Authori●a . Scripturae , Pag. 178. And therefore Iacobus Andreas , al be it he coulde not be ignorant of this dissension , beinge him selfe a partie , yet he saithe , Qu●d vociferantur , nostros de summa Euangelij nondum consentire , mendacium est : Whereas they crie out , that wee cannot agree emonge our selues , aboute the Substance of the Gospel , it is a very greate Vntruthe .

But you saie , The Maisters of the Apologie telle vs , They doubte not , but these parties wil be reconciled . And yet Nicolaus Amsdorfius ( with whose woordes ye are ashamed to blotte your paper ) taketh the matter to be impossible . And here , ye thinke , ye haue driuen vs neare the wal , specially findinge vs so far disagreeinge in Iudgemente from a Doctoure , as you cal him , of our owne .

But ▪ M. Hardinge , ye might better haue considered , that Amsdorfius , and wee speake of sundrie maters , and therefore our saieinges maie wel stande togeather .

Amsdorfius saithe , the Doctrine , and Termes standinge stil , as they doo , it is not possible by any manner of Construction , to make the parties agree . But our truste in God is , that they , that are deceiued , shal finde their owne erroure , and alter their Termes , and correcte their iudgementes , and submit them selues vnto the Truthe , and so ioine togeather al in one .

So S. Augustine saithe , Augustin in Secunda Disputatione contra Fortunatum . Recte dicitur , Glacialem niuem calidam esse non posse . Nullo enim pacto , quàm diu nix est , calida esse potest : It is wel saide , snowe frorne , ●r congcled , can neuer be hote . For as longe , as it is Snowe , it is not possible to make it hote .

So likewise he saithe of the Heretiques named the Manichees : Lutherans Zuinglians . Sic delirant Manichaei : sed resipiscant , & non sint Manichaei : Thus fonde are the Manichees : August . Contra Faustum . Lib. 24. Cap. 2. But let them amende their errours , and no more be Manichees .

What is there so contrarie in iudgemente , as a Iewe , and a Christian ? Yet God hath promised , that he wil turne the hartes of the Fathers ( the Iewes ) vnto their Children : Malach 4. and the hartes of the Children ( the Christians ) vnto their Fathers . And S. Paule saithe , Roman. 11. Iudaei , si non permanserint in incredulitate , inserentur . Potens enim est Deus iterum inserere eos : The Iewes shal be graffed into the Tree , if they abide not in Vnbeliefe . For God is able to graffe them in againe . What is there so contrarie , as Light , Psalm. 17. and Darkenesse ? Yet the Prophete saithe , Illumina tenebras meas : O Lorde , sighten thou my darkenesse . To conclude , what is so contrarie , as the Kingedome of the Pope , and the Kingedome of Christe ? And yet , wée truste , it is not impossible , but the Pope him selfe maie once turne to God , & confesse his errours , and professe the Gospel of Christe , that he nowe oppresseth .

These thinges considered , M. Hardinge , it was no deadly Sinne , to saie , wée truste , that these maters of variance bitweene the Lutherans , and the Zuinglians , wil once be accorded : and that al causes , and séedes of dissension shal be thorowly pulled vp by the rootes , and be buried , and quite foregotten for euer . This change God hath already begonne to woorke , not onely in sundrie learned menne , but also in greate Citties , in good Vniuersities , and in whole Countries . Therefore , wee truste , our hope is not in Vaine .

As for the Lies , whiche , it liketh you wel to saie , M. Iewel made openly at Poules Crosse , I doubte not of your modestie , but ye woulde haue blased them better , if ye had thought them woorthe your colours . Sutche general , and so greate exclamations , vpon so simple reportes , stande not alwaies with greatest wisedome . He is to rasshe to be a Iudge , that pronounceth before he knowe the cause . What I saide there , for as mutche as ye touche nothinge in particulare , it is néedelesse to make rehearsal . But wel I remember , I might truely haue saide , M. Hardinge commonly Misallegeth , misreporteth , misconstrueth , corrupteth , wreasteth , and Falsifieth the Anciente Councels , and Holy Fathers . I coulde haue saide , M. Hardinge is oftentimes directely contrarie to him selfe . I coulde haue saide , M. Hardinge in one Booke hath vttered twoo hundred fiue and fiftie greate Vntruthes . These , M. Hardinge , your Conscience knoweth , had benne no Lies : and therefore not méete to be chastifed by an Lawes .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 1. & 2.

But this is the heauiest , and moste greeuous parte of their sclaunders , that they cal vs wicked and vngodly men , and saie wee haue throwne awaie al care of Religion . Though this ought not to trouble vs mutche , whiles they them selues that thus haue charged vs , knowe ful wel , howe spiteful , and vntrue theire sclaunder is . Iustine the Martyr is a witnesse , that al Christians were called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is Godlesse , as soone as the Gospel firste beganne to bee published , and the name of Christe to be openly declared . And , when Polycarpus stoode to be iudged , the people stirred vp the President to slea , & murder al them , whiche professed the Gospel , with these woordes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , That is to saie , Ridde out of the waie these wicked and Godlesse creatures . And this was , not bicause it was true , that the Christians were Godlesse in deede , but bicause they woulde not worship stones and stockes , whiche were then honoured as God . The whole worlde seeth plainely yenough already , what wee and oures haue endured at these mennes handes for Religion , and our onely Goddes cause . They haue throwne vs into Prison , into Water , into Fier , and haue embrued them selues in our bloude : not bicause wee were either adulterers , or Robbers , or Murtherers , but onely for that we confessed the Gospel of Iesus Christe , and put our confidence in the liuinge God : And for that wee complained too iustly , and truely ( Lorde thou knowest ) that they did breake the Lawe of God for theire owne most vaine Traditions : And that our aduersaries were the very foes to the Gospel , and enimies to Christes Crosse , so witingly , and willingly , and obstinately despisinge Goddes Commaundementes .

Wherefore , when these menne sawe they coulde not rightly finde faulte with our Doctrine , they woulde needes pike a quarrel , and inueigh and raile against our manners , surmising , that wee doo condemne al wel doinges : that wee settte open the doore to al licentiousnesse and luste , and leade awaie the people from al loue of vertue . And in very deede , the life of al men , euen of the deuoutest , and moste Christian , bothe is , and euermore hath been sutche , as one maie alwaies finde somme lacke , euen in the very best , and purest conuersation . And sutche is the inclination of al creatures vnto euil , and the readinesse of al menne to suspecte , that the thinges , whiche neither haue been donne , nor once were meant to be donne , yet maie be easily bothe hearde , and credited to be true . And like as a smal spotte is soone espied in the neatest , and whitest garmente , euen so the leaste staine of dishonestie is easily founde out in the purest , and sincerest life . Neither take we al them , which haue at this daie embraced the Doctrine of the Gospel , to be Angels , and to liue clearely without any more , or wrinkle : nor yet thinke wee these menne neither so blinde , that if any thinge maie be noted in vs , they are not able to perceiue the same , euen through the leaste creuie : nor so frendly , that they wil construe ought to the beste : nor yet so honeste of nature , or courteous , that thei wil looke backe vpon them selues , & weigh our liues by theire owne . Yf so be wee liste to searche this matter from the bottome , we know , that in the very Apostles times there were Christians , through whom the name of the Lorde was blasphemed , and euil spoken of emonge the Gentiles . Constantius the Emperoure bewaileth , as it is written in Sozomenus , that many waxed woorse after they had fallen to the Religion of Christe . And Cyprian in a lamentable oration setteth out the corrupt manners of his time : The wholsome Discipline , saithe he , whiche the Apostles leafte vnto vs , hath idlenesse , and longe reste now vtterly marred : euery one studied to encrease his liuelyhode : And cleane forgeatinge , either what they had donne before , whiles thei were vnder the Apostles , or what thei ought continually to doo hauinge receiued the Faithe : thei earnestly laboured to make greate theire owne wealth with an vnsatiable desire of coue●ousnesse . There is no deuoute Religion , saith hee , in Priestes , no sounde Faithe in Ministers , no charitie shewed in good woorkes , no fourme of Godlinesse in theire conditions : menne are become effeminate , and weemens bewtie is countrefeited . And , without recitinge of many moe writers , Gregorie Nazianzene speaketh thus of the pitieful state of his owne time : Wee , saith he , are in hatred emonge the Heathen for our owne vices sake , we are also becomme nowe a woonder , not onely to Angels , and menne , but euen to al the vngodly . In this case was the Churche of God , when the Gospel firste beganne to shine , and when the furie of Tyrannes was not as yet cooled , nor the swerde taken of from the Christians neckes . Surely it is no new thinge , that menne bee but menne , although thei bee called by the name of Christians .

M. Hardinge .

Loe , a greeuous , and a heauy case , that the worlde calleth you wicked , and vngodly menne . Twis they be to blame for it . And so be they , that cal them theeues , whiche come to be promoted to Tiborne . ●●r , God knoweth , litle haue you deserued so to be called , &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

Al this , with the reste , is onely Hicke Scorners eloquence , not woorthy of answeare .

Here endeth the Thirde Parte .
The Fourth Parte .
The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 1.

- BVT wil these men , I praie you , thinke nothing at al of them selues , whiles they accuse vs so maliciously ? And hauinge leasure to beholde so farre of , & to see , what is donne bothe in Germanie , and in Englande , haue they either foregotten , or can they not see , what is donne at Rome ? Or wil thei accuse vs , theire owne life beinge sutch , as no man is hable to make mention thereof but with shame ? Our pourpose here is , not to take in hande at this presente , to bringe to lighte , and open to the worlde those thinges , which were meete rather to be hidde and buried with the woorkers of them . It beseemeth neither our Religion , nor our modestie , nor our shamefastenesse . But yet he , whiche geeueth commaundemente , that he shoulde be called the Vicare of Christe , and the Heade of the Churche , who also heareth , that sutche thinges be donne in Rome , who seeth them , who suffereth them , ( for wee wil goe no further ) maie easily consider with him selfe , what manner of thinges they be . Let him in Goddes Name cal to minde , and let him remembre , that they be of his owne Canonistes , whiche haue taught the people , that Fornication bitweene single folke is no sinne : ( as though they had fette that Doctrine from Mitio in Terence ) whose wordes be : It is no sinne ( beleeue me ) for a yonge man to haunte harlottes . Let him remembre , they be of his owne , whiche haue decreed , that a Prieste oughte not to be put out of his cure for Fornication . Let him remembre also , how Cardinal Campegius , Albertus Pighius , and others many moe of his owne haue taughte , that the Prieste , whiche keepeth a Concubine , dooth liue more holily , and chastely , then he , whiche hath a wife in Matrimonie . I truste , he hathe not yet forgotten , that there be many thousandes of common harlottes in Rome : and that he him self dooth geather yeerely of the same harlottes aboute thirtie thousande Ducates , by the waie of an annual pension . Neither can he foregeate , that he him selfe dooth mainteine openly brothel houses , and by a moste filthy lucre dooth filthily and lewdly serue his owne luste . Were al thinges then pure , and holy in Rome , when Iohane a Woman , rather of perfite age , then of perfite life , was Pope there , and bare her selfe as the Heade of the Churche : And after that , for twoo whole yeres , in that holy See she had plaide the naughty packe , at laste going in Procession aboute the Cittie , in the sight of al her Cardinals , and Bishoppes fel in trauaile openly in the stretes ?

M. Hardinge .

Firste who seeth not * * By the answeare it wil appeare , that this Lie is plaine Truthe . what a notorius lye they make in the preface and entrie to the matter ? Saie they not , they take not vpon them , at this time to bringe to light and to the shewe of the world those doinges , whiche ought rather togeather with the Auctours of them to be buried ? And that so to doo , theire Religion , theire shamefastnes , theire blusshinge dooth not beare it ? What is a lie , if this be not ? Doo they not in deede , that they denie in woorde ? Yea , saie they not that thinge , whiche they affirme they saie not ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

I doubte not , good Reader , but perusinge these fewe folowinge , thou shalte plainely sée , that the Authours of this Apologie spake not al , that they might wel haue spoken . But , if thou happen to reade Dantes , Petrarcha , Boccase , Mantuan , Valla , and others like , thou wilte certainely saie , that euen now , beinge thus chalenged , and called foorth , and required to speake , yet wée haue rather geeuen an inklinge hereof , then opened the particulare secretes of the mater . For thereof S. Bernard ad Clerum in Synodo Rhemen . Po●em loco . Fran. Petrar . Epist. 20. Bernarde saithe thus , Quae in occulto fiunt ab Episcopis , turpe est vel dicere : It is shame to vtter the thinges , that Bishoppes doo in theire secretes . And therefore he saithe further , euen as did the writer of the Apologie , Melius itaque arbitror super hoc dissimulate : Touchinge sutche matters , I thinke it better to dissemble . Franciscus Petrarcha calleth Rome the Whoore of Babylon , the Mother of al Idolatrie , and Fornication : Fran. Petrar . Cantilena 92. Onde jugita ogni vergogno . Baptij . Mantuanus . and saithe , that al shame , and reuerence is quite departed thence . Baptista Mantuanus saithe :

Viuere qui Sanctè cupitis , discedite Roma : Omnia cùm liceant , non licet esse bonum .

Al ye , that woulde liue godly , be packinge from Rome . For there al thinges els are lawful : but to be good , it is not lawful . And againe , as it is alleaged once before ,

Sanctus ager scurris , venerabilis Ara Cynaedis Seruit , honorandae Diuûm Ganymedibus Aedes .

Hereby , M. Hardinge , ye maie easily sée , that wée of pourpose dissembled , and couered your shame , and spake mutche lesse , and far otherwise of you , then wée might haue spoken .

Erasmus , writing of S. Augustines dealinge againste the Manichees , saith thus , Obscoena Mysteria Manichaeorum protraxit in lucem . Nam haec prodidisse , erat vicisse : Erasmus in vita Augustini . He opened , and published the filthy Mysteries of the Manichees . For the very openinge thereof was sufficiente to ouerthrowe them . But happy are they , that liue in sutche sorte , that no man maie wel reuele theire life without blusshinge .

Here , M. Hardinge , yée charge vs pleintiefully with Fables , and Sclaunders , and heapes of Lies , greate , fowle , lewde , and shameful , in one companie , al togeather . Wherein it was no greate Maisterie for you to be so liberal : for that hereof ye want no stoare .

But if wee shal be hable clearely , and plainely to anouche , and iustifie eche thinge , that wee haue spoken , then wee doubte not , but ye wil take al these Lies home againe , and bestowe them fréely emongest your fellowes .

M. Hardinge .

They be the Popes Canonistes ( saie they ) that haue taught the people , Crimes laid to the Popes charge by the Defenders . that simple fornication is no sinne . A greuous offence , and woorthy to be punished . And verily if any Pope euer knewe , that his learned men in the Canon lawe haue taught the people sutche heathenish , and deuilishe Doctrine , * * Vntruthe . For the Canonistes them selues confesse , that the Councel maie iudge , and depose the Pope . though no man in Earthe be his iudge , yet he maie be thought vnwoorthy the roome of so greate charge . But if the Pope neuer knewe sutche Doctrine preached by the Canonistes , and if at no time there haue ben any sutche , then is he cleare , and ye are proued slaunderers , and false backebyters . We denie it vtterly . How proue ye it ? Mary Sir , saie ye , looke in the margent of our Apologie , and there shal ye finde one Iohn de Magistris , noted for an offender in that behalfe . Wel , if it were so , he was but one man . Ye speake of Canonistes , whiche worde signifieth a number . And howe proue ye that he the saide Iohn de Magistris ( for nowe I wil spare you , and wil not saie they ) taught the people that simple fornication was no sinne ? &c.

Nowe we tel you , Ioannes de Magistris blamed by the Defenders , for Martinus de Magistris that we cannot finde , where euer Iohannes de Magistris wrote so impiously , as ye reporte . Is it not Martinus de Magistris , that ye meane ? It is a greate rashenesse , if ye haue not reade it your selues , to beliue sutche ‡ ‡ This Peltinge writer is Alphonsus de Castro , one of M. Hardinges greatiest Doctoures . pelting writers , that be of your sectes , as ye do , by whom ye seme to be mooste shamefully and moste dangerously deceiued . &c. What wil be thought and saide of you , if we shewe plainely , that ye haue forged a fowle lie , and a moste false slaunder vpon Martinus de Magistris ? For so wil we cal him , vntil ye proue it of Iohannes .

This Martinus de Magistris was no Canoniste , A fowle slaunderous lie made by the Defenders . as ye saye , but a Doctour of diuinitie , wel learned for his time and order of studie , as a schooleman . In a treatise , that he made , De temperantia & de luxuria , he disputeth after sutche manner , as the scholastical doctours commonly vse . Wherefore he that saieth that he taught the people , sought by vntruthe , how to make the matter more detestable . * * He that teacheth aim Scholes , is a Teacher of Teachers . For disputinge in Schooles , and teachinge the people , be farre asunder . Saithe this doctour Martin after the guise of Schooles , Quaeritur vtrum simplex fornicatio sit Peccatum mortale , that to saie , It is a question , whether simple fornication be mortal Sinne . ‡ ‡ Note by the waie , that by M. Hardinges secrete conclusion , Fornication is not a Mortal , but a Venial sinne . This Defender knewe , what he did , when he lefte out the woorde mortal . For beinge disposed to lie , he thought beste , to lye for a vantage . The manner of the Schole Doctours . Nowe this is to be vnderstanded , howe the manner of the scholastical Doctours is , firste to propounde a question : Nexte to argue , obiecte , and reason againste the Truthe of the question : Then to auouche and proue the Truthe : After that to soile the obiections brought againste the Truthe : Lastly to bringe conclusions for confirmation of the Truthe . Then in prosecutinge his question , arguitur quòd non , I reason againste it , saithe he , and argue it is not so . And there after the Schoole manner , he maketh an argumente againste the Truthe . Whiche argumente who so euer taketh for his purpose , and alloweth it , admitteth that the Doctor goeth againste and disproueth . After this he commeth to proue the Truthe . Martinus de Magistris cleared of the crime by the Defenders obiected . And there it foloweth . In oppositum . simplex fornicatio excludit , &c. To the contrary ( saith he ) Simple fornication excludeth from the Kingdome of God , Ergo , it is mortal sinne . Then he saithe further . It is to be noted , that the * * Ergo , by likelihoode the opinion of others was otherwise . opinion of Thomas is , that simple fornication vndoubtedly is mortal sinne . Who so euer readeth further in Martinus , he shal find , after he hath wel disputed pro and con , as they terme it in Scholes , that is to saie , for , and againste the Truthe , that he putteth six conclusions , of whiche the fourthe beginneth thus , ideo , &c. Therefore Simple fornication is mortal sinne , bicause it is forbidden by Gods Lawe , &c. And in the ende of the sixthe , he saithe : Hereof the falsehed of theire opinion is made euident , who saie that simple fornication is not mortal sinne . Whiche opinion is condemned in the articles of them of Paris , errore . CLXXXVI . Then he saith further . Guido the Carmelite saithe in a Chapter contra Errores Graecorum , that the Errour of the Grekes , saieing simple fornication betwene a single man and a single woman not to be mortal sinne , openly conteineth Heresie againste the Holy Scripture , and that he proueth by foure reasons , &c.

By this , and mutche more there expressed , it is sufficiently proued , that Martinus de Magistris in his scholastical disputations in the saide treatise , For trial of this Conclusion , see the answeare . saithe not that simple fornication is no sinne : mutche lesse can it be reasonably , or with any coloure of honestie saide , that so he taught the people . And therefore it is falsely and slaunderously imputed vnto him .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here ye saye , Simple Fornication . Wée lie : wée backebite : wée sclaunder , &c. For answeare whereunto , first wée saie , It is no new diuise , to make light and simple accoumpt of your Simple Fornication . Epiphan. Lib. 3. Haeresi. 56. For Aëtius the olde Heretique vsed thus to saie , Dormire cum muliere extra Coniungium , non magis est peccatum , quàm aurem scalpere : To haue the companie of a Wooman out of Marriage , is no more a sinne , then it is for a man to clawe his care . Clemens Stromat . Lib. 3. Likewise the Heretique Prodicus saide , Licet palàm , & apertè Fornicari : It is lawful to commit open Fornication . Likewise not longe sithence wrote Laurentius Valla , in earneste , or in game , I cannot tel : but thus he wrote : and he wrote it in Rome , Laurent . Valla , De Voluptate , Lib. 1. Cap. 38. Richar. de Sancto Victore , Par. 2. Fol. 73. beinge him selfe one of the Canons there : Omninò nihil interest , vtrùm cum Marito coeat Mulier , an cum Amatore : Vndoubtedly there is no difference , whether a Wooman keepe companie with her Husbande , or with her Louer . Richardus de Sancto Victore saith , Paulus praeuidebat , multos fore , qui Fornicationis malum non adeò damnabile putarent : S. Paule foresawe , there shoulde be many , that would thinke , the il of Fornication not to be so damnable a mater . To like purpose Socrates writeth of the corrupte iudgemente of sundrie of his time : Socrat. li. 5. ca. 22 Scortationem indifferentem esse putant : De Festis verò diebus , perinde atque pro animabus suis dimicant , inuertentes Mandata Dei , &c. They take Fornication , or whooredome to be a thinge indifferente , ( that is to saie , neither good , nor il , but leafte at libertie ) : But they fight for the keepinge of theire Holydaies , as for theire soules . From these Fathers , as it appeareth , issued out the Pope , and his Romaine Cleregie : who haue learned so readily to swalowe a Camel , and so nicely , and solemnely to straine a gnatte .

But , ye wil saie , al this hitherto perteineth nothinge vnto the Canonistes , specially in the plural number .

Let vs therefore see the practise of the Churche of Rome : whiche is the Life , and soule of al the Canonistes . Dist. 34. Is qui. Thus therefore it is noted in the Decrées , Qui non habet Vxorem , Parisijs , an. 1505. loco illius Concubinam debet habere : He that hath not a Wife , in steede of her muste haue a Concubine . Ye wil saie , there is erroure in the printe . Be it so . Yet thus is it extant in many Copies , and it is wel agreable to your common practise . Concil. Toletan . 1. Cap. 17. For the beste , that you can make of the same place , is this : Is qui non habet Vxorem , & pro Vxore Concubinam habet , à Communione non repellatur : He that hath no Wife , and in steede of a Wife hathe a Concubine , let him not be remoued from the Communion .

Likewise it is noted in the Glose vpon the Constitutions of Otho Bonus : Constit . Othonis Boni de Concubinis Clericor . remouendis . Licet ad profagandū . In Glossa . In eadem Glossa . Extra . De Immunit a. Ecclesia . Petr. Rauennas . Videtur quòd Crimen Meretricij Ecclesia sub dissimulatione transire debeat : It seemeth , that the Churche ought to passe ouer the Crime of whooredome vnder dissimulation ( and not to see it ) . In whiche Glose , ye shal finde these woordes , Si non castè , tamen cautè : If ye doo it not chastely , yet doo it charily . Likewise saith Petrus Rauennâs , one of your notable Canonistes , vpon the Decretalles : Quamuis tactus , & oscula sint praeludia incontinentiae in Laicis , secùs tamen est in Clericis . Nam Clericus praesumitur ista facere pro charitate , & bono zelo : Notwithstanding , handeling , and kissing in Laie Personnes be the occasions , or beginninges of incontinente behaueoure , yet in Priestes it is far otherwise . For a Prieste is presumed to doo these thinges of charitie , and of good Zele .

Likewise it is noted in your Glose , 11 quae . 3. Absit . In Glossa . Si Clericus amplectitur Mulierem , ( Laicus ) interpretabitur , quòd causa benedicendi eam hoc faciat : If a Prieste embrace a Wooman , a Laie man muste iudge of it thus , that he dooth it to th intente to blesse her . Where also ye shal finde this special note sette out in the margine for the pourpose , Clericus amplectens Mulierem praesumitur bene agere : Ibidem , In Margine . A Prieste embracinge a Wooman is presumed to doo wel .

These be your Canonistes : Simple Fornication . these be your Scholemaisters : these be your Doctoures , M. Hardinge : thus they write , not onely in the Singulare , but also in the Dual , and Plural number . They would neuer so lightly haue iudged hereof , if they had thought , your Simple Fornication had benne Sinne .

S. Augustin . in En. chiridio ad Lauren. ca. 80. Augustine saithe , Clamor Sodomorum , & Gomorrhaeorum multiplicatus est : Quia non solùm iam apud eos non punicbantur illa flagitia , verùm etiam publicè , velut lege , frequentabantur : The Crie of Sodome , and Gomorrha is multiplied : For that sutche vices then , not onely were not punished , but also were openly vsed , as it had benne by the aide , and Authoritie of the Lawe .

Sommewhat it muste needes be , Concil. Basil . Session . 20. Erasmus in Enchirid. mili . christiani , Ca. 14. that in your Late Councel of Basile , enforced the Bishoppes there to Decrée , that Fornication should be Sinne . Erasmus , a man of Singulare Learning , and Iudgemente saithe , * * He meaneth somme of the beste of the Romaine Cleregie . Iacobus de Valentia in Psal. 118. Antoninus in Sum. par. 4. titu . 12. ca. 2. §. 3. Alexander Halensis , par. 3. quae . 35. Mem. 5. Ambrosius . 1. Timoth. 4. Augusti . in quae . in Exod. quae. 20. Bona pars eorum , quos vulgus integros , & incorruptos appellat , Simplicem Fornicationem , & moderatum voluptatis vsum , vt leue commissum , neutiquam refugiunt : * A greate many of them , whom the common sorte taketh for good , and godly Menne , not a white abhorre Simple Fornication , and a sober vse of pleasure , reckeninge it to be but a litle petite faulte . So saithe Iacobus De Valentia , Tam Iudaei , quàm Saraceni , & mali Christiani , vt detestabilem vitam suam excusent , & defendant , asserunt , Fornicationem Simplicem esse licitam : As wel Jewes , and Saracenes , as also il Christian Menne , to the intent to excuse , and defende theire wicked life , saie , that Simple Fornication maie be Lawefully vsed .

So saithe Antoninus the Archebishop of Florence , Confutatur error dicentium , Simplicem Fornicationem non esse peccatum : Hereby is reproued the errour of them , that saie , Simple Fornication is no Sinne . Alexander of Hales , by waie of disputation doubtethe not to allege the woordes of S. Ambrose , to this pourpose : Etiàmsi aliquis lubricum carnis patiatur , sine dubio vapulabit : sed non peribit : If a man suffer the Frailtie of the Fleashe , without doubte he shal be pounished : but perishe he shal not : And likewise these of S. Augustine , Illa Fornicatio , quam faciunt , qui Vxores non habent , cum foeminis , quae viros non habent , an prohibita inueniri possit , ignoro : That kinde of Fornication , whiche Single Menne committe with Single Womenne , whether it be forbidden , or no , I cannot tel .

Thus haue you , M. Hardinge , not onely what your Canonistes , but also what your Schole Doctoures haue taught , and thought of Simple Fornication .

But there is noted in the Margine of the Apologie , Iohannes de Magistris , in steede of Martinus . M. Har. pag. 46. ae Reade the B. of Winchester vnto M. Fecknam . Pag. 121. And hereof haue ye made your selfe a pleasaunte Conqueste . Wee reade not these Bookes our selues : wee beléeue sutche peltinge writers of our sectes : wee are shamefully , and daungerousely deceiued . How be it , M. Hardinge , I require but your Indifferent Iudgement : Speake vprightly . Wherfore is it more dradely sin for vs , to name Iohannes , in stéede of Martinus , then it was for you in this selfe same Booke , vint . con. cantur . li. 3. de Euchar to name Captaine Iosue , in stéede of the Prophete Osee . Or , for one of your Brethren , to allege Hosius , for Athanasius ? Or , for D. Sreuin Gardiner , in stede of Theophylactus , to allege Theophilus ? Cicero allegeth Aiax in steede of Hector : M. Har. pag. 93. Chrysostome ad Romanos . 1. Chrysost ad Gala. 4. Agamemnon , in steede of Vlysses : Eupolis , in stede of Aristophanes . Aristotle allegeth Calypso , in steede of Circe . Your Gratian allegeth Aniceus , for Anicetus : Ambrosius , for Augustinus : & by your owne Confession , Calixtus , for Anacletus . S. Chrysostome nameth Abacuk , for Sophonias : and Agar , in steede of Sara . S. Marke allegeth Abiathar , for Abimelech . S. Mathew nameth Hieremias , Hieronym . in Marcum , ca 2. Matthae 27. De Rescriptis , Significante . Abb. for Zacharias .

It had benne no great preiudice vnto your cause , to haue dissembled so smal a mater , specially findinge your selfe so often guilty in the same . Your owne Doctours saie , Error in Nomine non habet vitiare , modò constet de Corpore : Errour in name marreth not the mater , so the Body , or partie be knowen .

But this same Martinus , Simple Fornication . ye saie , neuer denied Fornication to be deadly Sinne : but by expresse woordes affirmeth the contrarie . For trial hereof , it maie please you to geue some credite to Alphonsus dè Castro your owne Doctoure . Alphonsus Contrae Haeres . Li. 5. Coltus . His woordes be these , Graeci , vt Guido illis impingit , dicunt , Simplicem Fornicationem non esse peccatum . Martinus de Magistris in suo libro , De Temperantia , quaestione secunda de Luxuria , dicit , se fateri , Fornicationem Simplicem esse Peccatum Mortale . Tamen dicit insuper , quòd oppositum credere , non sit Haereticum : quia , vt dicit , Testimonia Scripturae Sacrae non sunt expressa : The Greekes , as Guido chargeth them , saie , that Simple Fornication is no Sinne . Martinus de Magistris in his Booke , Of Temperance , and in the seconde question , disputinge of Lecherie , graunteth in deede , that Simple Fornication is deadly Sinne . And yet he saithe , It is no Heresie to beleeue the contrarie : for that , as he saithe , the Testimonies of the Scriptures ( touching this mater ) are not plaine . Here , M. Hardinge , ye haue your owne Doctours minde . Martinus saithe , It is no Heresie , to beleeue , that Simple Fornication is no Sinne : And this he saithe euen in the very same Booke that he hath written , De Temperantia . So daungerously , M. Hardinge , and so shamefully are we deceiued , in alleginge your Peltinge Doctours .

And therefore Alphonsus concludeth thus , Sed cum pace illius dixerim , ego credo , Martinum , alioqui virum Doctum , in hac parte errasse : But , to speake with his fauour , I beleeue , that Martinus de Magistris in this behalfe was mutche deceiued .

M. Hardinge .

After this fowle lye foloweth an * * Vntruthe . For this he wil sone be founde a Truthe . other . Let him remember ( say these Defenders ) that they be his men that haue decreed , that a priest for fornication ought not to be remoued from his cure . To this we may saye , that although he be not depriued of his cure , yet he may be punished other wise . But let vs see , how they would proue that they saye . ‡ ‡ Who bestowed these quotations in the Margine , I cannot tel . But the lav●es are plaine : as it shal appeare . By their note in their margent they send vs for proufe to the canon lawe . 3. quaest. 7. Lata . Extra de bigamis . Quia circa . As touching the chapter Lata , in the decrees we finde none suche And , in Causa . 3. quast. 7. there is nothinge to this purpose . The paragraphe Quia circa . Extra . is vnderstanded of them , who being in the state of bigamie , are not to be promoted to holy orders , and not of one who is already made priest , that he be not for Fornication remoued . But , to vnderstande , what was donne to a priest , that had committed fornication , by order of lawe . * * This was in olde times Now it is quite foregotten . in case any Bishop , or priest , or deacon , after degree of deaconship taken , had benne conuict of fornication , or aducutrie , he was deposed , and castout of the Churche , and enioined to doo penaunce amonge the lartie . Whiche thinge S. Syluester at length mercifully changed , enioininge † † An hypocritical folie . For he maie redeeme al this whole tenne yers faste , by pa●einge of a penny Reade the Answeare . ten yeres penaunce after a prescript forme , whiche to oure newe cleregie woulde seeme very harde , and straite .

Yea further the lawe of the Churche in this case so litle beareth with the sinnefull life of Clerkes , that , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe manifest , and a Canon of M. Hardinges owne makinge . if any Bishop in his Dioces had consented and borne with the fornication of Priestes , or Deacons , or with the crime of incest , for money , or praier , or had not by Auctoritie of his Bishoply Office duly punished sutche faultes committed : the same shoulde be suspended from his Office . And this muche wee haue shewed touchinge the remouinge of a Prieste , not onely from his benefice , but also from his office , for cause of fornication : wherein these menne moste falsely haue slaundered the Churche , as now to any man it may * * Fal clearely , God wote . See the Answeare . Dis. 82. Presbyter . appeere .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , ye shewe your selfe to be mutche vnskilful in your owne Canons . The simpleste Proctour in your Courtes coulde soone haue tolde you , that yee are ouer farre deceiued . For thus it is written by expresse woordes in your owne Glose vpon the Decrees : Dicunt , neminem hodiè propter Fornicationem esse deponendum , nisi in ea perdurat : They saie , that for Fornication , noman ought this daie to be deposed , Not deposed for Fornication . onlesse he continewe in the same . And , leste ye shoulde in any wise mistrust , or doubte your Glose , it is also thus noted of pourpose in faire great letters in the Margine , Fornicationis causa hodiè nemo est deponendus : Now a daies noman maie be deposed for Fornication . Were there nothinge els to be saide , yet this thinge onely were sufficiente .

But Panormitane also your greateste Canoniste like wise saithe , Extra . de sanguinita . & affinita . Non debet . Abb. Dist. 81 Maximianus Clos . Ad varietatem temporum debent mutari statuta humana : Ideò hodie ex Simplici Fornicatione Clericus non deponitur : The Lawes of Menne ought to be altered accordinge to the change of times : And therefore nowe a daies for Simple Fornication no Prieste is deposed from his benefice . Likewise ye haue it noted vpon your Decrees , Communiter dicitur , quod pro Simplici Fornicatione Clericus deponi non debet : Quia pauci sine illo vitio inueniuntur : It is commonly saide , that for Simple Fornication no Prieste ought to be depriued : For that fewe Priestes are founde without that faulte .

Againe Panormitane saithe to like effecte , Extra . De Cohabita . clericor . & Mulier . Si autem . Abb. Clericus Concubinarius in officijs vitandus non est , nisi sit notorius : A Prieste , that keepeth a Concubine , onlesse he be notorious , maie not be refused in his Seruice .

Sundrie other sutche like Authorities your pooreste Proctoure coulde haue brought you .

Howe be it , you saie , S. Syluester in sutche cases enioineth tenne yeeres penance . This was true in deede , M. Hardinge . But it was true in Olde forne yeeres , aboute twelue hundred yeeres agoe . Nowe Syluester is paste quite out of minde , and his Lawe with him . Your owne folke nowe can saie , Nunc aliud tempus , alij pro tempore mores .

Martinus Poenitentiarius saith , Martinus Poeniten . in Dictionario . Ecclesia multos huiusmodi Canones exufflauit : quia onerosi sunt : The Churche hathe blowen awaie many sutche Canons , for that thei be too burthenous . Looke better on your Bookes , M. Hardinge . Your owne Lawe saithe , Fornicationis causa nemo hodiè deponendus est : Quia corpora hodiè sunt fragiliora : Di. 82. Prebyter . In Glossa . Noman nowe a daies ought to be depriued for Fornication : and that , bicause our bodies are frailer , then they were woonte to be . And therefore , touchinge that cruel tenne yeeres Faste , appointed by Syluesters Constitution , the Glose there saithe thus , Potest ieiunare per alium : vel , potest dare numum pro Ieiunio : Hee maie Paste by somme other man : or els , He mai geeue a good Penny , and so redeeme his whole tenne yeeres Faste . But there is graciousely added a special prouiso In the behalfe of him , that shal receiue this Penny : Sed debet iste Donarius esse talis , quòd non euincatur ab illo , cui donatur . Alias non contingeret liberatio : But it muste be sutche a Penny , that it be neuer euicted againe by Lawe from him , that receiued it . Otherwise he shoulde not be discharged of his penance .

In like manner saithe Pope Pelagius , Defectus nostri temporis , quibus corpora ipsa hominum defecerunt , Dis. 34. Fraternitatis . districtionis illius non patitur manere censuram : The weakenesse of our time , by meane whereof the very bodies of menne are decaied , doothe not suffer the rigoure of that Lawe to continewe .

Otho Bonus in his Constitution Legantine saithe , De Concubinis Clericor . remouendis . Licet ad profugandum . Remoueant ipsas intra Mensem : vel ipsas , vel alias de coetero nullatenus detenturi : Let Priestes put awaie their Concubines within a Monethes iespite : afterward to holde neither them , nor any others in any wise . Wherevpon the Glose , with great conscience , and ful discretely , saithe thus , Detenturi , scilicet , per mensem . Alioqui diceremus , quòd propter quancunque momentaneam possessionis detentionem sequentem , hanc grauem poenam incurreret . Quod nimis esset rigorosum , attenta fragilitate nostri temporis : They maie not afterward holde ( neither the same Concubines , nor any other ) . Whiche woordes you muste thus vnderstand : That by the space of a whole Mooneth togeather he maie not holde them . Not deposed for Fornication . Otherwise wee shoulde saie , that a Prieste shoulde renne into this grèeuous pounishemente for any shorte holdinge of his Concubine in possession folowinge afterwarde . Whiche thing in deede were marueilous rigorous , specially consideringe the frailtie of our time .

Againe the same Otho saithe , In eodem Titulo . Ordinamus , vt , si contra hoc praesumpserint venire , ab officio , & beneficio sint suspensi : Wee ordaine , that , if any Prieste doo contrarie hereunto ( liuinge incontinently , contrarie to this Constitution ) that then he be suspended , as wel from his Benefice , as from his Office . Hereunto your Glose addethe , Rigorosa quoque esset haec poena , nisi esset pro Adulterio , vel incestu : Etiamsi Episcopus esset huiusmodi labens : And this pounishemente also were ouer rigorous , onlesse it were for Aduoutrie , or Inceste : ( For he maie not so be pounished for Fornication ) Yea although the partie so fallinge were a Bishop . And againe in the same Glose , Propter solam Simplicem Fornicationem , de benignitate Canonica , non debet Clericus deponi , vel priuari : Licet secùs fortè de Canonis rigore : By the Courtesie of the Canons , onely for Simple Fornication , a Priest maie not be deposed from his Office , or depruied from his Benefice : Al be it , perhaps by the rigoure , or extremitie of the Canons , it woulde be otherwise . Extra De purgatione canonica . Accepimus : In Glossa . The very true cause hereof is more plainely expressed in your owne Glose vpon the Decretalles : Quia pauci sine vitio carnis inueniuntur : For without the vice of the fleashe there are but fewe ( Priestes ) to be founde .

Al this notwithstandinge , ye saie , If the Bishop winke , and dissemble , and beare with the wickednesse of the Prieste in this behalfe , that then he him selfe ought to be pounished by Suspension from his Office . This , M. Hardinge , is a Canon of your owne makinge : for other Authoritie ye allege none . But howe maie it seeme likely , that ye so cruelly pounishe your Bishoppes , for fauourable dealinge herein , seeinge your Highe , and alonely Bishop , and the Bishop of al Bishoppes , is so wel contente , vpon agreemente for monie , to licence bothe Bishoppes , and Priestes to keepe Concubines ?

If ye mistruste the truthe hereof , Extra De Iudicijs . Ca. 4. §. De Adulterijs . bisides your Common practise , as you knowe , your owne Pope Gregorie him selfe wil soone tel you , De Adulterio , & alijs Minoribus Criminibus , Episcopus potest cum Clericis post poenitentiam dispensare : Touchinge Aduoutrie , and other smal Faultes , the Bishop after Penance donne , maie dispense with a Prieste . Where also it is to be noted , that Aduoutrie in your Diuinitie is reckened emonge the petite Sinnes . Likewise againe it is to be noted in your Glose , Extra . De Bigamis . Quia Circa : In Glossa . Authen . De Trien . & Semiss . Colla. 3. Extra . De Bigamis : Quia circa . In Glossa . Cum presbyteris habentibus plures Concubinas , Episcopus potest Dispensare , vt suum officium exequantur : With Priestes hauinge sundrie Concubines , the Bishop maie dispense , that they maie neuerthelesse do theire Office . Wherein ye seeme sommewhat to ouerreache the Emperours Courteste touchinge the same : For thus he writeth , Vnam Concubinam qui habet , non plures , castè viuit : Hee that keepeth one Concubine onely , and no moe , liueth chastely . And in the saide former Glose , ye shal finde an other special note of your owne , wel woorthy to be written in the Popes priuie Galerie in letters of Golde : Nota , quòd plures concubinas habens non incurrit irregularitatem : Marke wel , that he , that keepeth sundrie Concubines , is not thereby made irregulare . And againe , Nota Mirabile : In eadem Glossa . quòd cum eo , qui peccat , dispensatur : & cum eo , qui non peccat , non dispensatur : Marke wel : Here is a marueilous strange reckeninge : The Bishop dispenseth with him that offendeth ( hauinge sundrie Concubines ) : but with him , that offendeth not ( hauinge married two wiues ) he dispenseth not . And further he saithe , Plus habet hîc Luxuria , In eadem . Gloss . quàm Castitas : Here Lecherie hath more priuilege , then Chastitie .

Againe in your Decrees it is written thus , Dist. 81. Quidam Clerici . In Gloss . Quaecunque Clericis taliter coniunctae sunt , auferantur ab Episcopo , & Venundentur : What so euer weemen haue sutche Companie with Priestes , let them be remoued by the Bishop , and solde , and made slaues . Vnto this Lawe beinge in it selfe ouer rigorous , Not deposed ●or Fornication . the Glose addeth this fauourable Construction : Venundentur : verum est , si contrahunt cum illis , tanquam cum vxoribus . Aliàs non concedo , posse vendi propter simplicem Fornicationem : Let them be solde , and made slaues . This is true , if the Priestes marrie with them , as with theire wiues . Otherwise I graunte not , that for Simple Fornication they maie be solde .

Likewise againe it is noted in your Glose , Dist. 23. His igitur . In Glossa . Nota , Frequentationem tantùm Viduarum , & virginum prohiberi : Marke wel , that it is not the comminge to widowes , or Maides , but the often hauntinge vnto them , that is forebidden . Otho in his Legantines saithe thus , Qui detinet publicè Concubinas , &c. The prieste , that Openly keepeth Concubines , Constitu . Ochonis , De Concubini , Clericor . remouendis : Licet ad profugandum . let him be deposed : Hereupon your Glose saithe thus , Tu dic . Publicè , quando Multitudini se patere non expauet . Secus ergo , si secretè intra domum propriam , vel altenam detineat hanc Concubinam . Nam tunc poenam huius Constitutionis non incurret . Domus enim rem secretam , non autem publicam denotat . Dic ergo , publicè , id est , Communiter , & coram multis . Non ergo sufficit , quòd semel , vel bis talis publicè videatur : He that Openly keepeth Concubines , &c. Vnderstande thou by this woorde , Openly if he be not afraide , though he appeare vnto the people . It is otherwise , If he keepe his Concubine secretely , whether it be in an other mans house , or in his owne . For so he commeth not within the danger of this Lawe . For a house betokeneth , not ●n Open m●ter , but a Secrete . Thus therefore expounde thou this Constitution : If hee keepe his Concubine Openly , that is to saie , If he keepe her Commonly , and in the sight of many . Therefore , if sutche a Concubine● wise , or thrise be seene Openly , it is not sufficiente . In the same ●lose of yours , ye haue these woordes , that I haue alleged before , Si non Castè , tamen Cauté .

And , whereas you saie , If a Bishop shewe fauoure herein , hee him selfe shal be suspended , Your owne Doctoure Abbate Panormitane woulde haue tolde you the contrarie : De Cohabitae . Cleruorum . & Mulier . ●●autem , Abb. Episcopus non tenetur deponere Clericum Concubinarium : The Bishop is not bounde to depriue a Prieste , that keepeth a Concubine .

To make shorte , ye haue also of great prouidence , diuised a special Premunire , to embolden your Priestes in Fornication , and to warrante them free from al daunger of any your Lawes , 2. Quae. 7. Laici . made in that behalfe . For thus you saie , Si Laicus , instigante Diabolo , accuset Clericum incontinentiae , statim repellitur . Laici in accusatione Episcopi audiendi non sunt : If a Laieman , by the instigation of the Diuel , accuse a Prieste of incontinent life , streight waie he is thruste backe , and put to silence . The Late sorte maie not be hearde in the accusation of a Bishop . And againe , Laicus non potest Clericum de Fornicatione accusare : Dist. 81. Maximianus . In Glossa . A Laieman maie not accuse a Prieste of Fornication . This i● that extremitie , and vnmerciful rigoure , M. Hardinge , that ye shewe your Priestes in these cases . No Laieman maie accuse them : No Bishop maie depriue them : No Lawe maie touche them .

M. Hardinge .

The thirde lye is , that Cardinal Campegius , Albertus Pighius , and certaine others haue taught , that a Prieste liueth more Holily and more Chastely , that keepeth a Concubine , then he that hathe taken a wife in Matrimonie . Why doo ye not tell vs , where they haue taught so ? Will ye that wee beleeue your bare woorde ? Howe can wee , hauinge taken you tardy in so many and so manifestlye● ? Aristotel once asked ▪ what a common lyer gained by his lyeinge , * * This Answeare mutche toucheth M Hardinge him selfe . that ( quoth hee ) when he telleth truthe , no man will beleeue him . Wisedome woulde syrs ▪ yee tooke good heede , that yee proue not suche gayners . Nowe wee require you to bringe foorthe proufe of that ye charge these learned menne withal . Wee are sure ye cannot .

The woordes of Pighius be these : But put case ( saithe hee ) they , whiche haue vowed chastitie , all doo not that they maie and ought to doo , Fornication better then Mariage . to atteine the grace of continencie : and therefore they be not onely tempted , but also ouercome with temptation for the more parte . What then ? Shall it be a lesse euill for them to marie ? For to saie it is better , thou maiest not , whiche the Apostle imputeth to damnation , if they breake their firste Faithe . For these ( I saie ) shall it be lesse euill , and lesse damnable to marie , then to be ouercome with lustes ?

Therefore where ye impute vnto him that he maketh the kepinge of a Concubine to be a more Holy and a more chaste life in a Prieste , then takinge of a wife in Matrimonie , it is a fowle lie , and a false slaunder . Neither is there in that Doctrine any filthinesse at al , whiche Philip Melanchthon , whom here ye folow , chargeth him withall .

Touchinge that pointe of doctrine it selfe , S. Paule confirmeth it , to whom the Mariage of those that be bounde to vowe of continencie , seemed so wicked and hainous a Sinne , that he pronounceth the will to marie to be damnable . Now your coniunctions with your yokefellowes ( we meane onely so many of you as haue vowed Chastitie ) * * Vntruthe . For S. Augustine saithe , Qui dicunt , talium . Nuptias non esse Nuptias . sed potiùs Adulieria , mihi non videntur satis acutè , ac diligenter considerare , quid dicant . De Bono Viduita . Cap. 10. are not in deede Wedlockes , but Incestuous Aduoutries . And righte so we finde them named by Cyprian , Basil , Chrysostome , Ambrose , Hierome , Photius , and other Holy and learned Fathers .

But perhaps ye saie , bothe are Aduoutries , whether a vowed person Marie , or committe Fornication . Let it be so . ‡ ‡ O Sage confiderations . Yet is not that sinne more greeuous which a man committeth of set and determined purpose , then that which he falleth into by humaine frailtie ? And that euill which contineweth , is it not muche worse , then that which hath intermission ( and no ende ? )

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Apologie saithe , that Campegius , Pighius , and others moe of your side , haue tolde vs , that a Prieste , kéepinge a Concubine , liueth more Holily , and more Chastely , then a Prieste , that hath a wife , and liueth in Matrimonie . Here ye crie out , as your woonte is , Sclaunders , Lies , foule lies , and I knowe not what For thus onely they saie , saie you , That Fornication in this case is lesse il , then Màtris monie . How be it , M. Hardinge , laieinge al Cauilles , and shiftes aside , the lesse il , in vse of speache is commonly called the greatter good . And in this sense it is written , Eccle 40. Eccle. 42. 2. Petri. 2. Better it is to Die , then to wante . And againe , Better is the iniquitie of a Man , then a woman dooinge wel . So Ionas saithe , Deathe vnto me is better then Life . So S. Peter saithe , Better had it benne for them not to haue knowen the waie of righteousnesse , then knowinge the same , to be turned backe from the Holy Commaundemente , that is geuen vnto them . These , and other like phrases are often vsed in the Holy Scriptures , not for that Deathe , or Iniquitie , or Ignorance of Goddes Iustice , be good in deede , but for that in comparison of other woorse thinges , they seeme to importe somme lesse il .

Fornication , ye saie , is not better then Mariage : But Mariage is woorse then Fornication . Thus it seemeth you good , to shadowe your maters by shifte of woordes , from woorse to better , and from better to woorse . And yet in al plaine mennes iudgementes , If Mariage be woorse then Fornication , then is Fornication better then Mariage .

But to lette you vnderstande , Hulderichus Episcop. Augustanus . The same Epistle is founde in Anciente Recorde vnder the name of Volusianus Episcopus Carthaginensis . wée haue dealte simply , and plainely herein , Hulderichus the Bishop of Augusta in Germanie , writinge vnto Pope Nicolas againste the restrainte of Priestes Mariage , aboue seuen hundred yeeres paste , vseth like manner of speache , as wee haue vsed . Thus he saithe , Huius imperij , ne dicam , confilij , tam fatuam , tamque turpem addunt suggestionem , vt dicant , Honestius est , Pluribus occultè implicari , quàm apertè in hominum vultu , & conscientia cum vna ligari . Quod profectò non dicerent , si ex illo , & in illo essent , qui dicit , Vae vobis Pharisaeis , qui omnia facitis propter homines : Vnto this commaundemente , I wil not saie , vnto this Counsel , they sette so foolishe and so shameful a suggestion , that they saie , Fornication better then Mariage . It is an * * An Honester thinge . Honester thinge for a Prieste to be entangled with many Concubines , in Secrete , and priuily , then Openly , and in the light , and knowledge of the worlde , to be ioined in Mariage with one Wife . Whiche thinge Verit they woulde not vtter , if they were either of him , or in him , that saithe , Woe be vnto you , ye Phariseis , that doo al thinges to please menne .

In like sorte the Councel of Wormes wrote sommetime againste Pope Hildebrande , for that he had diuised greate rigoure , & tyrannie , to sunder Priestes from theire Wiues : Concil. Wormaetien . Ex Auentino . Scorta pudicis Coniugibus : Stupra , incestus , adulteria casto Connubio praefert : He pleaceth strumpettes before honeste Wiues : and Fornication , Inceste , Aduoutesie before chaste Mariage . Hosius in Petricouen . Confess . Cap. 56. Notwithstandinge , your Doctoure Hosius saithe , Turpis Philippo videtur haec oratio : Catholicis autem honestissima : These woordes vnto Philip Melancthon seeme shameful : but vnto the Catholiques they seeme moste Honeste .

What néede wée many woordes in so cleare a case ? The whole practise of your Churche , M. Hardinge , professeth the same . If a Prieste marie a Wife , ye Suspende him : ye Excommunicate him : ye Depriue him : ye Disquiet , and trouble the whole Churche . But if he kéepe a Concubine , one , twoo , or moe , yée are then contented , and ready , not onely to dissemble it , but also with fauoure to excuse it . For so ye saie , as it is alleged before , Clericus Concubinarius in officijs vitandus non est , Extra . De Cohabita . Clerico & Mutier . Ca. final . Abb. nisi sit notorius : A Prieste , that keepeth a Concubine , onlesse he be very notorious , maie not be eschewed in his Seruice . Againe ye shal finde this lesson specially noted in your Rubrike , Dist. 34. Is. qui. as it is saide before , Qui non habet Vxorem , loco illius Concubinam debet habere : He that hath not a Wife , in steede of her ought to haue a Concubine . Ye wil saie , There is an Errour in your print : whiche thing maie easily be graunted , specially the whole Booke beinge otherwise so ful of errours . But would God your errours in Life , & Doctrine were no greatter . Howe be it , it foloweth immediatly in the same Decree , Is qui non habet Vxorem , & pro Vxore Concubinam habet , à Communione non repellatur : Who so hath no Wife , and in steede of a Wife hath a Concubine , let him not be remoued from the Communion . In these woordes , I trowe , ye wil saie , there is no erroure .

Vpon the Legantine Constitutions of Otho Bonus , ye maie finde these woordes noted in the Glose , Consti Othonis . De Concubinis Clericor . remouen . Licet ad Profugandum . Augusti . De Moribus Manichaeorum Li. 2. Ca. 18. Nunquid compelli potest Clericus concubinam abiurare ? Videtur , quòd non . Resolutio , Si Clericus duxit Vxorem de facto , eo casu iuramentum exigitur : Whether maie a Prieste be forced to fore sweare his Concubine ? It seemeth , he maie not . The Resolution hereof is this : If a Prieste haue in deede Maried a Wife , in this case he is forced to foresake her by an Othe . Therefore wée maie saie to you , as S. Augustine saide sommetime to the Manichees , Non Concubitum , sed . vt longè antè ab Apostolo dictum est , verè Nuptias prohibetis : Ye forebidde not Copulation : but , as it was longe agoe forespoken by the Apostle , in deede ye forebidde very Mariage .

Nowe , for as mutche , as ye saie , ye are no Angels , and your infirmities ought to be considered , it shal not be amisse , shortely to sée , what your owne frendes haue thought of these infirmities . And here , to passe ouer other Authorities , your owne Doctour the Bishop of Bitonto , beinge presente at your Late Chapter at Tridente , of your whole Single Life , whiche ye cal Chastitie , pronounceth thus : Quibus turpitudinum monstris , Concil. Triden . Session . 1. qua sordium colluuie , qua peste non sunt corrupti , non foedati in Ecclesia Sancta Dei , & Populus , & Sacerdos ? A Sanctuario Dei incipite , patres , si vllus iam pudor , si vlla pudicitia , &c. Dicunt in Corde impio , & ore impuro , Non est Deus : With what Monsters of filthinesse , with what villanie , with what Pestilence are they not corrupted , and defiled in the Churche of God , bothe the People , and the Prieste ? My Lordes , beginne euen with the Sanctuarie of God : if there be any shame , if there be any honeste Life . They saie with wicked haste , and filthy mouthe , There is no God .

An other saithe , Hermannus Riddus , De vita & hones. Cleri . Paralip . Vrspergen . in Clemen . 5. Propter multitudinem luxuriae , alia vitia quasi non peccata reputantur : For the multitude of Lecherie ( that is in Priestes ) other faultes are taken for no sinne .

An other saithe , Defecit iam omnis Disciplina , & Religio in Cardinalibus : Et tres radices vitiorum , Superbia , Auaritia , Luxuria validissimè dominantur : In the Cardinalles nowe al Discipline , and Religion is decaied : And three rootes of sinnes , Pride , Couetousnesse , and Lecherie doo mooste mightily preuaile . S. Bernarde saith , Fingunt , Bernar. in Cantic . Serm. 66. se amore Castitatis ista dicere : cùm ea magis causa turpitudinis fouendae , & multiplicandae adinuenerint : They beate vs in hande , that they speake these thinges for loue of Chastitie : Whereas in deede they haue diuised the same , to the ende to nourrishe , and to encrease theire fil thinesse . This , M. Hardinge , is your infirmitie , whiche , in your iudgemente , of Courtesie , and Charitie , wée ought to beare withal .

The places of S. Cyprian , The 2. parte , the 8. Chapter , the ● Diuision . Dist. 27. Quidam . S. Basile , S. Chrysostome , S. Ambrose , S. Hierome , and others , that maie seeme mutche to make with you in this case , and to condemne this kinde of Marriage , are weighed , and answeared before in a place more conuen●ente . Verily , S. Augustine saithe , ●rauiter peccant , qui tales diuidunt : They sinne greeuously , that diuide them , that be so ma●ried .

M. Hardinge .

Where ye saie , there be many thousandes of common harlottes in Rome , wee thinke there be many there in deede . Whether there be many thousandes , wee doubte . What number soeuer there is , they be too many . Those Courteghianes the Churche of Rome doothe * * Not nourrishe , but tolerate . A proper excuse & a soare pounishemente of open Whooredome . tolerate , not nourrishe , trustinge and lookinge , that by sermons , exhortations , and other conuenient meanes , they may be called backe to repentance , and to the waie of saluation .

That the Pope gathereth about a thirty thousande Ducates yeerely of these Courteghianes by waye of an annuall pension , whiche these Defenders affirme , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For it is moste true , as it shal appeare . it is vtterly false . Cornelius Agrippa , who fauoured not the See of Rome , and was imbrued with Heresies , that sprange vp in his time , was the firste Authour of this slaunder . If they paye the common taxes , which be leuied to the Pope , who onely hathe ciuil Dominion ouer that Cittie , they * * Vntruthe manifeste . For onlesse they paie , they shal not occupie . paie not for that they maie be suffered to continewe that sinneful trade of life , but so as the whole Cittie paieth by polles , for that there they haue their abode and habitation .

Firste it is common to al great Citties in those hote countries , not to bannishe from amonge them that filthy generation of harlottes , not by waie of sufferinge , as a thinge commendable in it selfe , but for the auoidinge of a greatter mischiefe . As ‡ ‡ The Pope maie dispense as wel as God . God suffered the harde necked Iewes to hate their enemies , and pinche them with vsuries . Likewise Moises permitted a libell of diuorce , not that these thinges were honeste , but to th intent by that meanes yet they might the rather loue theire Brethrene , and lende them money freely , and absteine from murderinge their wiues . Euen so men nowe adaies so litle applie theire endeuour to restraine the pronesse whiche is in their fleashe to all riot and carnall concupiscence , that if some waie were not ( as the least concerninge outwarde and ciuil punishement ) * * This is a ioily Catholique Diui●●ie . wincked at , whereby the Fleashely men might obteine some parte of theire vnruly desire : it were more then likely , that in this greate decaie of vertue in generall , the furious rage of that vice would leaue neither wedlocke vndefiled , nor Virginitie vnassaul●ed , nor a worse enterprise , whiche Nature abhorreth , vnattempted . Woulde God experience had not taught many Countries this to be too true an obseruation .

S. Augustine hereof saithe . ‡ ‡ S. Augustine rote these Bookes ▪ de Ordine , before he was Baptized . Quid sordidius , &c. What can be saide more vncleane , more voide of comelinesse , more ful of turpitude , then harlottes , baudes , and suche other like pestilences ? Take harlottes from amonge men , Stewes in Rome . ye shal disturbe al thinges with lecherous lustes . Put the same in the steede of matrones , ye shal dishonest ( all thinges ) with spotte and sha●● . And why is the Bishop of Rome to be blamed for that they be in Rome , more then the Frenche Kinge , the Kinge of Spaine , or any other Prince , for sufferinge them in their dominions ?

It remaineth , wee seeke whether they haue also the lowest and vilest place in that Citie , or no : lest perhaps , although they be a ‡ ‡ A vile Vntruthe Thei are not necessarie . necessarie euil , yet beinge promoted aboue their degree , they make an euil shewe in the body , where they rest . Their place maie be considered two waies , in respect of the temporal , or of the Ecclesiastical order or lawe . For temporal order thus they stande : Not to haue free libertie of dwellinge in the most haunted streetes , and Palaices , where them list , but * * Vntruthe . For the Cardinalles them selues say , Habitant insignes Aedes . onely to be in suche corners , and bylanes , and smal outhouses , as are most fitte shoppes for the vile marchandize of suche occupiers . Againe they can not without a very great forfeit ride in ‡ ‡ Vntruthe For the Cardinalles saie : Mula vehuntur . Coches , or Chariots , as Matrones there doo , but are constrained either to keepe their homely homes , or to walke a foote in the streetes . And then also by order they must be * * Vntruthe . For the Cardinalles saie , Incedunt vt Matronae . in suche apparel , that as Iewe , by theire red cappes , so they by theire shorte vailes ( a note of dishonestie ) be knowen to al , and be subiect to all shrewdnes of the boies of the streetes , who vse commonly to mocke and reuile them .

And here I can not but mislike with that malice whiche appeareth to be in the makers of this Apologie . For ‡ ‡ This is one of the Cardinalle vertues of Rome , to take tolle of Baudrie . it is a vertue in the Prince to set greate burdens and paimentes vpon so filthy a profession , to the ende he maie feare women from it , and make them the soner weary of it , &c. In good soothe maisters ye are too yonge to controll the Cittie of Rome in her doinges .

Besides al this , if in that sinneful state they continewe to their ende without repentance , * * Vntruthe . Sea the Answeare . it is not lauful for them to make any testamente or last will for bestowinge of their goodes , but as condemned and infamous persons , they must leaue al to be confiscated and disposed at the Princes pleasure . But on thother side , if they turne and repent , there are houses called Monasteries of the Conuertites , and speciall prouision and discipline for them , where they are taught howe to be waile their vnchaste life so sinnefully past ouer .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Touchinge the number of your Courteghianes of Rome , whether they be twentie thousande , or more , or lesse , wee wil not striue . They be leased out in see farme : The Popes rentes are alwaies certaine . For Fornication is fineable in Rome , and a goode ●aleable kinde of sinne . But this , you saie , is an other Lie , as false , and as sclounderous , as the reste . For , ye saie , they paie no yeerely pension for theire sufferance in that trade of Life : but onely the common taxes , whiche are likewise raised vpon other Citizens . Whether it be so , or no , M. Hardinge , it is sufficiente for you , so to saie . Otherwise , he that raiseth sutche fines vpon baudrie , might wel bee thought to be the baude .

Howe be it , your owne Doctours herein wil soone condemne you . For thus it is written by them in your owne Glose : Videtur , Constitu . Othonis . De Concubinis Clericor . remouendis . quod crimen Meretricij Ecclesia sub dissimulatione transire debeat . Nam & Mareschallus Papae de facto exigit tributum à Meretricibus : It seemeth , that the Churche ought to dissemble the fault of whooredome . For the Popes Marshal in deede receiueth a tribute , or pension of Whoores .

Whereas ye saie , Cornelius Agrippa was the first Authour of this sclaunder , it is vntrue . For your owne Glose laste before alleged , auoucheth it by the Authoritie of Iohannes Andreas , Iohan. Andreas mortuus est an. 1348. a notable Canoniste , that liued welneare twoo hundred yeeres , before Agrippa was borne . And Nicolaus de Clauengijs , that liued in the time of the Emperour Sigismunde , in his Booke intituled , De Corrupto Ecclesiae statu , Nicolaus De Clauengijs : In Paralipomen . Vrspergen . Ann. 1417. hathe one special Chapter , De Exactionibus pro concubinis tolerandis , Of Exactions for the sufferinge of Concubines .

But al this ye wipe awaie easily with one woorde . For ye saie , The Courteghianes in Rome paie these impositions , not as a portion of theire vnthrifty gaistes , but onely as a pounishemente for theire wicked life . For it is not laweful there to commit sinne freely , without paiemente . And thus is the mater wel defended .

So it is noted vpon your Decrees , Quòd dicitur , Sacerdos non potest percipere mercedem prostibuli , 14. quae . 5. Quod verò . In Glossa . Et Dis. 90 Oblationes , in Glossa . potest dici , quòd non debet recipi Oblatio Meretricis : licet Eleemosyna possit inde fieri : Whereas it is saide , The Prieste maie not receiue the rewarde , or Oblation of the Stewes , wee maie saie , that the Oblation of an Harlo● maie not be receiued : notwithstandinge wee maie make an almouse of the same : That is to saie , A Harlottes monie maie be taken by the waie of Almouse , but not by the waie of Oblation . Thus are wee taught , and it behooueth vs to beleeue , that the Pope maie liue , not by the Oblations of the Courteghianes , but by theire Almouse .

Nowe for as mutche as M. Hardinge woulde so faine haue this mater to passe by the name of a pounishemente of these il weémenne , I beseeche thee , good Reader , to consider , howe greeuousely , and with what extremitie , and rigoure of Lawe they haue diuised , Constitu . prouin. Edmundi Cantuar . Archiepiscopi . to haue them pounished . In a Prouincial Councel holden at Oxforde it is written thus , Concubinae Sacerdotum moneantur ab Archidiacono , &c. Let Priestes Concubines be warned by the Archedeacon &c. If they wil not amende , then let them be forebidden to Kisse the Pax , and to take Holy Breade in the Churche . With sutche extremitie , and crueltie they keepe the people from dooinge il .

It was neither for your profession , M. Hardinge , nor for your grauitie , to become a Proctoure for the Stewes . Although it might wel becomme Leontium , an Heathen Courteghiane of lewde conditions , that wai to bestow her witte , and Eloquence againste Theophrastus , in the defence of that filthy state , yet may not the same likewise becomme a Christian man , and a professoure of Diuinitie .

Ye cal your Courteghianes a Necessarie Euil : but by what Authoritie of the Scriptures , I cannot tel . That the whole trade , and life of them is il , we take it , as your graunte : But that thei be Necessarie in any Christian Common wealth , I recken it very harde for you to proue . Yee allege the heate of the Countrie : as if that weere a sufficiente warrante for your Stewes . And yet , I trowe , the towne of Louaine , and the Countrie of Brabante , where ye nowe inhabite , is not so hote . The heates of Iewrie are thought farre to passe al the heates of Italie . Yet God saithe vnto the Iewes , Deutero. 23. Non erit vlla Meretrix de filiabus Israel : nec Scortator de filijs Israel : There shal be no Whoore of the Daughters of Israel : Nor Whoorekeeper of the Sonnes of Israel . And euen nowe , where so euer the Gospel of Christe is openly , and freely receiued , notwithstandinge the heate of the Countrie , your Stewes , and Bordelles flee awaie , as the night clowdes before the Sonne . But after that your Priestes were once forbidden laweful Marriage , then was it needeful , that your Necessarie il shoulde comme in place . Howe be it , Roman. 3. S. Paule saithe , Let vs not doo il , that good maie folowe . For iuste is the damnation of them , that so saie .

But S. Augustine standeth ful of your side : S. Augustine hath written in the behoufe of the Stewes : S. Augustine saithe , Take Harlottes awaie from emonge menne , Augustin . De Ordine , Li. 2. and ye fil al the Countrie with ribaudrie , and villanie . In deede the very name of S. Augustine is great , and Reuerende . But what if S. Augustine , when he wrote these woordes , were not S. Augustine ? What if he wrote that Booke , De Ordine , beinge as yet a very yonge man , & but a Nouice in the Faithe : not yet wel instructed : not yet Baytized in the name of Christe : him selfe as yet keepinge a Concubine , and liuinge in whooredome ? Shal sutche a one , so yonge , and so youthful , goe for a Saincte ? Or shal his bare name , and vnseasoned fantasies stande you in steede , to proue your Stewes ?

Verily , the same S. Augustine , beinge afterwarde fully instructed , and Christened , saith thus , Augustin De Ciuitate . Li. 14. Cap. 18. Istam in vsu scortatorum terrena Ciuitas licitam fecit turpitudinem : The worldly Citie ( not the Church of God ) hath made this filthinesse of harlottes to be laweful . And Ludouicus Viues , writing vpon the same , saithe , Satis apertè Augustinus ●estatur , Ludo. Viues in Librum De Ciuitate . Lib. 14. Cap. 18. lure Ciuili veteri Romano multa esse permissa , quae sint contra●ia Legibus Diuinis . Hoc isti volunt , qui , dum Gentilitatem coniungere , & coaptare Christianismo laborant , corrupto vtroque , & alterius impatiente , nec Gentilitatem , nec Christianismum retinent : S. Augustine plainely witnesseth , that by the olde Ciuile Romaine ( and Heathen ) Lawe , many thinges were suffered , whiche were contrarie to the Lawes of God . This thinge wil not these menne allowe , whoe while they studie ( as you , M. Hardinge , doo ) to ioine Heathennesse , and Christianitie bothe togeather , bothe beinge corrupted , and the one not standinge with the other , keepe nowe neither Heathennesse , nor Christianitie .

Therefore wee maie mutche better exchange these woordes of Augustine , spoken in his youthe , before he had wel learned to speake : and ma●e mutche better saie thus , Permitte Lupanaria : & implebis omnia libidinibus : Suffer , and allowe the Stewes : and ye shal fil al the Countrie with Ribaudrie , and Villanie . And in this sense S. Bernarde saithe ▪ Bernard . in Cantic . Sermo. 66. Tolle de Ecclesia honorabile Coniugium , & thorum immaculatum : Nonne reples eam Concubina●ijs , incestuosis , seminifluis , mollibus , masculorum Concubitoribus , & omni denique genere immundorum ? Take once from the Churche honourable 〈◊〉 , and the Bedde vndefiled : and doeste thou not fil the same Churche ful of brothelles , keepinge Concubines , &c. and with al so●tes of filthy personnes ?

Further ye saie , And wherefore is the Bishop of Rome more to be blamed for mainteinance of his Stewes , then the Frenche Kinge , or the Kinge of Spaine ? This is but a simple reason for a Doctour of Diuinitie . It is an olde saieinge : Nil iuuat exemplum , quod litem lite resoluit .

Christe bade not his Apostles , to be leadde by the example of worldly Princes . If it be il in them , it is mutche woorse in him , that woulde be called the Vicare of Christe , the Heade of the Churche , and the Holy one of Israel .

An other parte of theire paunishemente is , as you tel vs , that they maie not ride sumptuousely in Coches , or Charettes , or dwel in the open faire stréetes , and in the sight of the Cittie : but are forced to goe a foote , and to hide them selues in corners , and in out houses , and bylanes : and that , by your description , in sutche simple , and poore , and beggerly sorte , as if they were the vileste , and ougleste of al the people , and had not a good clowte to couer theire bodies . Certainely , M. Hardinge , your Courteghianes , if they vnderstoode hereof , woulde thinke them selues litle beholden to sutche a Proctoure .

Doctoure Peter Martyr , of whom I cannot speake without great reuerence , hauinge good cause to knowe the state of Rome , as fewe menne better , hereof wrteth thus : Petrus Martyr . in Li. Iudicu●● Cap. 16. None , O Deus bone , quomodò Romae coercentur Meretrices ? Habent ornatissimas domos : vehuntur per publicum habitu principum : Sedent in equis gradarijs : habent secum Torquatos , & Laruatos Comites : interdum etiam Cardinales , praesertim noctu : & ancillarum sumptuosissimum gregem : Nowe a daies , O good God , howe are the Courteghianes pounished in Rome ? They dwel in the fairest houses : They are caried with honoure through the Cittie , as if they were Ladies : They are mounted on amblinge palfraies : They are attended with chaines of golde , and personnes disguised , and sometimes Cardinalles , and specially in the night season : and haue a sumptuous sorte of Maides to waite vpon them .

If ye shal happen to doubte M. Martyrs reporte in this behalfe , Concilium Delectorum Cardinalium . Concil. tom. 3. Pag. 823. yet I truste ye wil geue somme credite to your owne Frendes , the Cardinalles of the Churche of Rome . Theire woordes hereof be these : In hac etiam Vrbe Meretrices , vt Matronae , incedunt per Vrbem , seu Mula vehuntur : quas affectantur de media die Nobiles , familiares Cardinalium , Clericque . Nulla in vrbe vidimus hanc corruptionem , praeterquam in hac omnium exemplari . Habitant etiam insignes aedes . In this Cittie of Rome the Courteghianes passe through the streetes , or ride on their Mules , like honeste Matrones , or Ladies : and in the middest of the daie , Noble menne , the Cardinalles deere frendes , and Priestes attend vpon them . Wee neuer saw sutche corruption , but onely in this Cittie , whiche is the example , and paterne of al others . Moreouer they dwel in faire and notable houses . Anno. 1538. This Information was presented vnto Pope Paule the thirde by certaine of his graueste Cardinalles , appointed thereto by special Commission .

Nowe , good Christian Reader , I beseeche thée , consider the Conformitie of these tales . M. Hardinge saithe , The Courteghianes of Rome goe onely a foote : These Cardinalles saie , They ride on Mules . M. Hardinge saithe , They haue a special apparel of dishonestie , to be knowen by : These Cardinalles saie , They goe , or ride , as honeste Matrones , or great Ladies , or Noble wemenne . M. Hardinge saithe , They be despised , and reuiled of the people : These Cardinalles saie , They haue Priestes , Noble menne , and the Cardinalles frendes to attende vpon them . M. Hardinge saithe , They dwel onely in out houses , and backe lanes ▪ These Cardinalles saie , Habitant insignes Aedes : They dwel in faire , and notable Houses . So many Vntruthes it is no harde mater for M. Hardinge to vtter in so shorte a tale . Nowe , beinge so fine Dames , and so richely attired , it were great sclaunder to saie , They serue onely for V●rlettes , or common rascalles . If the reporte be true , vpon Twelueth daie at night , in the yere of our Lorde , 1564. there were seene Seuentéene Coches of Courteghianes arriuing togeather euen into the Popes owne Palaice . Anno. 1564. If any man shal thinke this reporte incredible , yet Luitprandus , Luitprandus , Li. 6. Cap. 6. of the like hereof , saith thus , Lateranense Palatium , Sanctorum quondam hospitium , nunc est Prostibulum Meretricum : The Popes Palaice at Laterane , sommetime the harbour of Holy Sainctes , is nowe becomme a stewe of whoores .

An other parte of theire pounishemente , ye saie , is this : That as condemned , and infamous personnes , at theire ende they can make no Testamente , nor take order with that they haue . If this were true , it were a good token , that the Pope is Couetous to haue their goodes , more then desirous to saue their Soules . How be it , the best Learned , and most notable Canonistes , that ye haue , affirme the contrari● . For prouse whereof reade Cynus Pistoriensis in L. Cum te . C. De Condictione ob turpem causam : Cynus Pistorien . Baldus . Bartholus . De Immunita . Ecclesiar . Ca. 14. Abb. Reade Baldus L. 1. C. in eodem capite : Reade Bartholus in L. Idem . ff. eodem Ca. Abbas Panormitane , after longe disputation had touchinge this mater , thus saithe his Iudgemente in the ende : Conclude ergo ex omnibus premissis , quòd Meretrix turpiter non recipit dona , vel promissionem : & quòd potest de illis ad libitum disponere : Of al these premisses conclude you thus , That a Harlot maie receiue rewardes , or promisses , without infamie , or shame ( of the Lawe ) : and that of the same shee maie dispose at her pleasure . Therefore , M. Hardinge , this tale woulde haue benne better studied . For this pounishemente , that ye haue here imagined , by the Iudgemente of the Learned , is no pounishemente .

In good soothe Sirs , ye saie further , Ye are to yonge to Controlle the Cittie of Rome in her dooinges . Yet , in the rebuking of open vice , noman ought to be thought too yonge . But of what age then are you , M. Hardinge , that are hable thus to defende the Cittie of Rome in open Whooredome ? Primasius ad Roman . Cap. 2. Ephes. 5. Primasius saithe , Nemo periculosiùs peccat , quàm qui peccata defendit : Noman sinneth with more danger , then he that standeth in defence of Sinne . S. Paule saithe , Let noman deceiue you with vaine woordes . For bicause hereof the anger of God commeth vpon the Children of infidelitie . Be not therefore partakers with them .

And whereas you saie , This policie is thought necessarie for the eschewinge of a greatter il , Extra . De Celebra . Miss. De homine . your Lawe telleth you , Abijcienda sunt falsa remedia , quae Veris , & manifestis periculis sunt grauiora : Wee muste abandon vaine remedies , that are more greeuous , then the true , and manifeste dangers .

S. Augustine saithe , Non vult Deus tale lucrum compensari tali damno . God wil not haue sutche a gaine to be recompensed with sutche a losse . S. Paule saith , as wée haue alleged before : Roman . 3. Tertullian . De Anima . Anthen . De L●nonibus . They saie , Let vs doo il , that good maie folowe . But he addeth withal , Therefore iuste is theire Damnation . Tertullian saith , Lupanaria execrabilia sunt coram Deo : stewes are accursed before God . And therefore , to conclude , the Emperour Iustinian streitely commaundeth , that Harlottes be bannished out of al Townes .

But here , good Christian Reader , this one thinge I beseeche the vprightly , and indifferently to consider : what thinge wil not these menne defende , that can thus boldely defende confessed filthinesse ? Or , when wil they refourme the Churche of God , that in so longe time cannot yet refourme theire open Stewes ?

These Harlottes , ye saie , sommetimes repente them , and amende theire liues . God of his mercie graunte , that you , M. Hardinge , maie once doo the like : Hierem. 3. Matthae . 2● . Leste the woordes of the Prophete falle vpon you , Frons Meretricis facta est tibi . God graunte , that Harlottes , and Sinners goe not before you in the Kingedome of God .

M. Hardinge .

That ye tel of a Woman named Ioane , bearinge the worlde in hande , she was Pope of Rome , it is a fonde and avaine fable . Were ye so wise , as ye be malicious , ye woulde neuer haue brought your credite in hazard by reportinge sutche vanitie . This I accoumpte for one of your accustomed lies . By this men maie iudge , what litle stoare of true thinges ye haue to obiecte againste vs . Who listeth to see a Learned discourse written hereof , him maie is please to reade the annotations of * * Onuphrius is a man yet liuing , hired of pourpose to face out this mater . Onuphrius Pāuinius vpon Platina , de vitis pontificum , In Vita Iohan. 8. printed in Venis . And he shal easely beleue the whole matter to be fabulous .

After Anastasius , they that in theire writinges recite an exacterewe and order of Popes , as Ademarus , and Annonius of Paris , Regino , Hermannus Schafnaburgensis . Otho Frisingensis , Abbas Vrspergensis , Leo Bishop of Hostia , Iohanes of Cremona , and Godfridus Vrterbiensis , of which some wrote three hundred , some foure hundred yeeres paste , al these make no mention at al of this Woman Pope Ioane . Againe there be in bibliotheca Palatina , at Rome , six or seuen tables of the Popes names writen in sundry bookes , before the time of Innocentius the fourthe . Mary in the margent of Pandulphus this fable is put in betweene Leo the fouthe , and Benedicte the thirde , written in a hande farre different from the olde characters of that Auncient Booke , added by some man of later time . Whiche maketh the matter to be the more suspected , and taken for a fable .

Though men had at that time ben so farre bewitched , and distract of theire fiue wittes , ‡ ‡ Semiramis beinge a wooman was of longe time taken for a man . Yet mennes eies were not bewitched . as they coulde not haue knowen a woman from a man , ( whiche no wise man I wene beleueth ) , yet * * God hath suffered others as very monsters to sitte in that See , as euer was Pope Iohane . it is not to be thought , that God him selfe , who appointed and ordained the Seate of Peter , whereof he woulde the whole Churche to be directed , woulde departe so far from his merciful prouidence , towarde the Churche , as to suffer the same to be polluted by a woman , whiche is not of capacitie for holy orders .

‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For there were others before him , that wrote the same . The firste Author of this fable was one Martinus Polonus , a Monke of the order of Cisterce : Who wrote longe after the time that Pope Iohane is fayned to haue liued in . Whose manner of writinge if we consider , wee shal finde it vaine , and nothinge like to be true . It beginneth thus , Iohannes Anglicus natione , Maguntinus , sedit annos duos , mensem vnum , dies quatuor , &c. Iohn an Englishe man by nation , of Maguntia , saie ( in the Romaine See ) twoo yeeres , one moneth , and foure dayes , alias , fiue monethes and three daies . What a foolishe speache is this , an English man Maguntine , or of Maguntia ? It foloweth in the fable , as the saide Martine telleth . This ( as it is saide ) was a Woman , Dame Iohane the Pope . and in the younge age of a girle , she was brought to Athenes by one that was her Louer in a mans apparel , and there profited so mutche in diuerse sciences , as none was founde to be compared with her . To Athenes was she brought , saithe the fable . And why ? For learning . Very wel . Whereas at that time * * Vntruthes , twoo togeather neither any Athenes stoode , * neither was there any place of lerning there any lenger : but al the countrie of Attica became Barbarous , and vtterly voide of learninge , as we vnderstande by the writers of that time . The authour reporteth , that from thence she came to Rome , and there professed learninge openly , and had greate Doctours to her Scholers , and for opinion of learninge and good life , by one consente of al was made Pope . Whiche is soone confuted as false : ‡ ‡ Vntruthes , 2. Reade the Answeare . for there was no learninge at those dayes openly professed at Rome , as ‡ the Stories declare .

It foloweth in the fable . Beinge in the Popedome she is begotten with childe of her Seruaunt . And not knowinge the time of her delyueraunce , as she wente from S. Peters to Laterane , streined with paines betweene Colosseo and S. Clementes Churche , she brought foorthe , and died , and was ( as they saie ) there buried . Here is to be marked , howe the * * This Diuiser dwelt in Rome , and liued aboue fiue hundred yeeres agoe . deuiser of this fable bewrayeth himselfe , and thinketh the matter harde to be beleued . And therefore in the beginninge saithe , she was a Woman ( vt asseritur ) as folkes saie : and nowe he saith , she was buried , vt dicitur , as it is said . So he dothe not affirme it to be true , but referreth al to heresaie . By whiche testimonie lies commonly be soothed .

And as it is false , that euer there was any sutche Pope , so is it not true , that ye note in the margent of your booke touchinge the image , whiche ye saie is to be sene yet in Rome , resemblinge that woman Pope lieinge in trauaile . The image , whiche ye meane , I haue sene my selfe at Rome , grauen in a stone , after the manner of a tombe stone , pitched vpright not farre from the Colosseo . It resembleth no sutche thinge ye speake of .

Neither is it of any more truthe , whiche some haue ignorantly written of the Popes refraininge to go that waie , when he goeth thereby in solemne processions : nor that whiche I haue reade in some of your ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For they liued 500. yeeres before vs : and were the beste writers of that time . Schoolefelowes peuishe bookes of the stoole of easemente , that is at Laterane made of faire porphyry stone , whiche they haue reported to be kepte there for an vnsemely vse at the creation of the Popes , for proufe of theire Humanitie . Thus , we truste , we haue brought your great matter of Pope Ioane to nought .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , in your Iudgemente , is an other of our fowle shameful accustomed Lies . And that ye proue by the Authoritie of one Onuphrius , one of the Popes late pages , specially hired , and procured , to healpe out this mater . Of the Truthe , and certainetie hereof , wée shal consider further in the ende . Nowe let vs examine this Newe Coniectural Doctour with his gheasses . Not Registred .

Firste , he saithe , Dame Iohane is not registred in the Calendare emonge the Popes : Ergo , it is but a vaine Fable , that euer Dame Iohane was Pope in Rome . This Coniecture , M. Hardinge , is very simple . For I doubte not , but ye maie wel remember , that Bishoppes names , as wel in Rome , as otherwheres , haue vpon sundrie occasions benne oftentimes quite striken out of the Calendare .

So was Chrysostomes name vpon displeasure , quite striken out of the Table of the Bishoppes of Constantinople , In Vita Chryso . Chrys. Epist. 3. ad Cyriacum . as if he had neuer benne Bishoppe there .

And Chrysostome him selfe , writinge vnto Cyriacus in his owne defence , saithe thus , Siquidem hoc feci , expungatur nomen meum ex albo Episcoporum : & non scribatur in Libro Orthodoxae Fidei : If I haue thus donne , let my name be rased out of the Bishoppes Calendare : and let it not be registred in the Booke of the Catholike Faithe .

And afterwarde his name beinge so defaced , and rased out , was restoared againe by Theodotus at the vehemente requeste , Nicepho . Li. 14. Cap. 26. Gelesius ad Episcopos Dardaniae . and instaunce of the people . So Acacius , the Bishop of Constantinople , rased out the name of Pope Foelix of Rome : So Innocentius , the Bishop of Rome , rased out the name of Arsacius the Bishop of Constantinople . And this is it , that S. Augustine meaneth , writinge to the people of Hippo , Nicephor . Li. 13. Cap. 34. Quid obest homini , quòd ex illa Tabula non vult eum recitari humana Ignorantia , si de Libro viuorum non eum delet iniqua Conscientia ? What hurte is that vnto a man , Augu. Epist. 137. that the Ignorante people wil not suffer his name to be readde out of that Table , if wicked conscience blotte him not out of the Booke of Life ?

So writeth Iohannes de Parisijs of Pope Cyriacus : Iohan. De Parisijs ▪ De Potesta . Regia , & Papali . Cyriacus Papa renuntiauit officio , vt cum Vrsula , & Virginibus palmam Martyrij susciperet . Sed iste Cyriacus in Catalogo Paparum non annumeratur : quia credebant , ipsum non propter deuotionem , sed propter oblectamentum virginum dimisisse Episcopatum : Pope Cyriacus gaue ouer his Bishoprike , that with Vrsula , and other Maides he might receiue the Crowne of Martyrdome . But this Cyriacus is not reckened in the Calendare of the Popes : for that it was beleeued , he had geuen ouer his Bishoprike , not of deuotion , but for somme fantasie towardes the maides .

But , to comme neare the pourpose , and to the force of your gheasses , therefore was Pope Iohanes name leafte out of the Calendare of the Bishoppes of Rome , not for that there neuer was any sutche Pope there : but onely for shame , leste it shoulde appeare in recorde , and afterwarde be reported for euer , that a wooman , and sutch a wooman , had benne Bishop of Rome : or , that the Bishop of Rome had benne with Childe .

So saithe Marianus Scotus , Marian. Scotus . Huius Iohannae nomen Authores Pontificij non ponunt , propter turpitudinem rei , & muliebrem sexum : The Chroniclers , that write of the Popes , leaue out the name of Pope Iohane , both for the shame of the mater , and also for the Wooman kinde . Martinus Polonus . So saithe Martinus , Iohanna non ponitur in Catalogo Sanctorum Pontificum , tam propter Muliebrem sexum , quàm propter deformitatem facti : Pope Iohane is not reckened in the Calendare of the Holy Popes , as wel for that shee was a Wooman , Sabellicus Ennead . 9. Lib. 1. Pag. 469. as also for the shame of the mater . So saithe Sabellicus , Nullus Defunctae honor habitus . Fama tenet , ob tam foedae rei memoriam : There was no honoure bestowed at her burial : Iohan. de Parisijs , De Potesta . Regia , & Papali . The reporte is , for the remembrance of her filthy acte . So saithe Iohannes de Parisijs : So saithe Fasciculus temporum . Therefore this firste reason is but a very blinde Coniecture , and beareth no force .

An other of your gheasses is this : Knowinge a wooman from a Man . Menne had benne bewitched , and distracted of theire wittes , Fasciculus temporum . if they could not haue knowen a Woman from a Man . This reason , M. Hardinge , beareth as greate weight , and Substance , as the former . For your owne Amphilochius , M. Hardinges Amphilochius . that wrote the Life of Thomas Becket , coulde haue tolde you , that Euphrosyna , that holy Maide , dwelte six and thirtie yéeres in Monkes apparel emonge Monkes , and was neuer otherwise taken , but for a Monke .

Likewise Vincentius , Vincentius . Li. 9 Cap. 47. and Petrus de Natalibus , and others your Writers , and Recorders of Fables , coulde haue tolde you , that Tecla sommetime addressed her selfe in Mannes apparel , Petr. De Natalib . Lib. 8. Ca. 110 Rauisius Textor in Officina : Mulieres Virilem habitum mentitae . Simeon Metaph. In Eugenia . and , had she not benne forebidden by S. Paule , would haue folowed him in companie , as a Man . Rauisius Textor writeth the like of one Marina , that dissemblinge , what she was , liued many yéeres in an Abbie as a Monke . The like he writeth of Lasthenia , Axiothea , and others , that beinge Wéemen , came into the Schoole in Mannes apparel , to heare Plato . The like writeth your owne Fabulare Simeon Metaphrastes of Eugenia . And , if ye lacke other Authorities of truste , and credite , One of your owne Companions of Louaine auoucheth the same of Melania , and Papula . And yet , I thinke , Copus Dialo . 2. Pag. 236. he was not bewitched , as you saie , nor thorowly berefte of his wittes .

The quarrel , that ye pike to the Name , and Surname , is nothinge els , but a childishe cauil . For she was not called Iohane Englishe , by the name of the Countrie , Anglicus . for that she was an Englishe Wooman , borne in Englande , as you ful fondely imagine , but onely by the Surname of her Father . So are there many knowen this daie by the names of Scot , Irishe , Frenche , Welshe , Westfalinge , Norman , Gascoingne , Brabante , Holande : and yet not borne in any of al these Countries , but onely in Englande . So Matthias Parisiensis , as it is supposed , notwithstandinge his name , was borne in Bohemia .

Therefore , whereas ye woulde haue the woordes vainely , and without sense , to be readde , and pointed thus , Iohannes Anglicus natione , Moguntinus , &c. Iohn an Englishe man by nation , of Moguntia , &c. ye plaie , and toie , and trifle vnseemely , and mocke your Reader . For the woordes are cleare , and plaine , and lie thus : Iohannes Anglicus , Natione Moguntinus , &c. Iohn English , ( so Surnamed ) borne at Mens .

Further ye saie , Goddes Sufferance . God would neuer haue so foresaken Peters Chaire , as to suffer it to be polluted by a Wooman , whiche is not of capacitie for Holy orders . This gheasse , M. Hardinge , presumeth ouer far of Goddes Prouidence . And therefore Antoninus the Archebishop of Florence , when he had opened this w●ole Storie of Pope Iohane , beinge astonned with the strangenesse , and admiration of the mater , Antonin . Par. 2. Ti. 16. Ca. 1. § 7. could not refraine him selfe from crieinge out , O altitudo Sapientiae , & Scientiae Dei. Quàm incredibilia sunt iudicia eius : O the Deapthe of the Wisedome , and knowledge of God . Howe vncredible be his iudgementes ? In like manner the Prophete Esaie crieth oute , Esai . 1. Quomodò facta est Meretrix Ciuitas fidelis ? Howe is that Faithful Cittie becomme an Ha●●ot ?

And why might not Pope Iohane , beinge a Wooman , haue as good right , and interest vnto the See of Rome , In Epistola Othonis Imper. ad Iohan. pp. Platyn . in Iohan. 13. as afterwarde had Pope Iohn 13. who , being Pope , had wicked companie with twoo of his owne Sisters : or others , whom for theire horrible vices , and wickednesse , Platyna calleth Monstra , & Portenta , Monsters againste kinde , and ilshapen creatures ? Luitprandus saithe , as it is before reported , Lateranense Palatium nunc est prostibulum Meretricum : The Popes Palaice of Laterane in Rome , Luitprand . Li. 6. Cap. 6. is nowe becomme a Stewe of whoores .

Al this notwithstandinge , saithe Antoninus , Nulli ex hoc Salutis praeiudicium fuit . Antonin . par. 2. Ti. 16. ca. 1. §. 7. Quia nec Ecclesia tunc fuit sine Capite , quod est Christus , vnde percipit influxum Gratiae : Noman had binderance of Saluation by meane hereof . For ( although the Pope were a Wooman , yet ) the Churche was not without a Heade . For that Heade is Christe : From whom shee receiueth influence of Grace . Yea , although Antichriste geate him selfe into the See of Rome , yet shal the Churche of God neuerthelesse continewe stil : Although in horrible confusion , and vnder greate persecution .

Further ye saie , To Athenes was she brought , saithe the Fable . And why ? For Learninge . Very wel . Whereas at th●t time , neither any Athenes stoode , nor was there any place of Learninge there any lenger : but al the Countrie of Attica became Barbarous , as wee vnderstande by the writers of that time .

The Cittie of Athenes was then ouerthrowen , Athenes . ye saie , and Learning there vtterly decaied . And therefore al this is but a Fable . And good reason it is , that wée beléeue you , for that youre Onuphrius hath so tolde you . But for your credites sake , M. Hardinge , leste al menne espie your Vanitie , tel vs , by whom was that Noble , & so Populous , and mighty Cittie of Athenes thus laide waste ? By what Kinge ? By what Captaine ? By what foraine nation ? At what time ? How longe agoe ? Hauing not one poore Authour to allege ▪ how could ye pretende the names of so many without blusshinge ?

The Cittie of Athenes had then continewed welneare twelue hundred yéeres : And for knowledge in Philosophie , & renowme of Learning , was called the Eie , and Vniuersitie of al Graecia . Lumen . & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Ruffinus in Apologia pro Origine : Apud Hierony . To● . 4. Georgius Patriar . in vita Iohannis . Origen writeth of him selfe , that he was sommetime a Student in Athenes . Chrysostome beinge eightéene yéeres olde , for Learninges sake , was sente to Athenes . S. Basile , and his Brother Gregorie , afterwarde the Bishop of Nyssa , were Studentes at Athenes togeather thirtéene yéeres . Your owne Amphilochius , whoes Authoritie ye maie not in any wise denie , saithe thus of S. Basile , Apprehendit Matrem Literarum Athenas : He came to Athenes , whiche is the Mother of Learninge . Boethius of Rome planted him selfe in Athenes for Learninges sake , about the yéere our Lorde 520.

In the yéere of our Lorde 680. the Bishop of Athenes was presente at the Councel holden at Constantinople , Ruffin . ●i 2. ca. 9. M. Hardinges Amphilo●●ius . Theod. vi●. 〈◊〉 r. in Epist. ad 〈◊〉 . called Synodus Sexta . After that , in the yéere of our Lord 742. at the seconde Councel of Nice a greate number of the Bishoppes of Graecia were presente in theire personnes al togeather . Within fewe yéeres after whiche time , folowed Pope Iohane , in the yéere of our Lorde 853.

Hitherto the whole Countrie , and Churche of Graecia continewed in safetie : and the Emperours of Christendome made theire continual aboade in those partes . And haue you , It appeareth in the Subscriptions of the 2. Nicene Conc. Anno. 742 . M. Hardinge , so suddainely throwen downe al togeather , bothe Churche , Countrie , Towne , and Castle , onely to keepe Pope Iohane from her Studie ?

Ye saie , The whole Countrie of Attica was then becomme Barbarous . This tale is your owne , & hangeth onely vpon your owne credite . Yet Platyna , Sabellicus , & others moe , that wrote this Storie , and knewe , what they wrote , were not so Barbarous . But Barbarous is he , M. Harding , that wil beléeue your simple woorde without warrante .

At that time , ye saie , the Cittie of Athenes was not standinge . But Paulus Aemylius saith , Paulus Aemylius Lib. 6. that longe after that time , in the Reigne of Philip the Frenche Kinge , Ann. Domi. 1220. Gottofredus one of the House of Tricasses , was appointed , & made Dux Athenarum , & Princeps Achaiae . The Duke of Athenes , and the Prince of Achaia . If there had benne then no Athenes standinge at that time , as you telle vs , how then could Gottofredus haue benne made Duke of Athenes ? If ye saye , as ye maie doo mutche by your Coniectures , that , notwithstandinge the Cittie of Athenes were rased , and made waste , yet the dignitie , or name of honoure remained stil , yet wil the same Aemylius once againe reproue your Erroure . For , writinge afterwarde of certaine Pirates , that had inuaded the Countrie of Graecia , he saithe thus , Paulus Aemylius Lib. 8. In terram Atticam delati , Athenarum Ducem Brennae Nobilitatis virum occiderunt , Vrbemque ceperunt : Inuadinge the Countrie of Attica , they tooke , An. Domini . 1288 and slewe the Duke of Athenes , one of the house of Brennus , and tooke the Cittie .

These thinges happened , as it is easy to recken , welneare foure hundred , and fiftie yéeres after the time of Pope Iohane . Nowe therefore , I besech you , M. Hardinge , consider indifferently with your selfe : If there had benne no Cittie of Athenes then standinge , howe coulde these Pirates then inuade , and take the Cittie of Athenes ? Shal wee saie , They leuied an armie , and disquieted the Countrie , and troubled them selues , and came so far to catche a shadowe ?

Thus hitherto it appeareth not , but if Dame Iohane woulde haue gonne to Athenes , there was roome sufficiente to receiue her .

After that shee came to Rome , and there professed Learninge openly . This , No Vniuersitie in Rome you saie , is soone confuted as false . For there was no Learninge at those daies professed at Rome , as the Stories doo declare . This is very soone confuted , M. Hardinge : and specially by him , that recketh so litle , what he saie . Leaue this Hypocrisie : dissemble nomore : It is not manly : Dame Iohane the Pope . Tel vs in good soothe , what Writers , what Stories declare these thinges ? your credite faileth ouer mutche : your woorde is no sufficiente warrante .

Ye saie , There was no Learninge in those daies professed in Rome . And why so ? Wil ye nowe saie of Rome , as ye earste saide of Athenes ? Wil ye saie , There was no Cittie of Rome then standinge ? Wil ye saie , Learninge there was then vtterly decaied , and the whole Countrie becomme Barbarous ? If there were no studie , or place of Learninge then in Rome , where then was there any studie in al Christendome ? For the Vniuersities of Parise , Orleance , Tolouse , Salerne , Padua , Bononia , Praga , Salamanca were erected longe afterwarde . And therefore ye séeme to saie , that al the whole worlde then was Barbarous .

But that ye maie the better sée your ouersight , S. Hierome , writtinge of Victorinus , and Donatus , Hierony . in Appendice Annalium Eusebij . saithe thus : Victorinus the Rhetorician , and Donatus the Grammarian , my Schoolemaisters , are accoumpted notable in Rome . And againe he saithe , Victorinus natione Apher , Romae sub Constantio principe Rhetoricam docuit : Hierony . in Catalogo Scriptor . Illustrium . Victorinus borne in Aphrica , taught Rhetorique in Rome in the time of the Emperoure Constantius .

Erasmus , writtinge the Life of S. Hierome , saithe thus , Romam missus est , velut ad primariam eo saeculo tum Religionis , Erasmus in Vita Hieronym . tum Eruditionis Magistram , Liberalibus studijs erudiēdus : quod ipse declarat enarrans 11. Caput Ezechielis : Hierome was sente to Rome , as to the Principal Schoolemaistresse in those daies , both of Religion , and also of Learning : as he him selfe declareth , expounding the eleuenth Chapter of Ezechiel . August . Confess . Lib. 5. Cap. 8. S. Augustine saith , Egisti mecum , O Deus , vt mihi persuaderetur , Romam pergere , & potiùs ibi docere , quod docebam Carthagine : O God , thou mouedst my minde to goe to Rome , and there rather , to professe openly the same Learninge , that I had professed at Carthage . And further he saithe , Audiebam quietiùsst udere ibi adolescentes , & ordinatiore Disciplinae correctione sedari : I heard saie , that yonge menne there wente more quietly to theire bookes , and were keapte in orderly obedience to theire studies .

And in the Tripartite woorke ioined vnto the Councel of Laterane , ye maie finde the storie hereof recorded thus : In Opere Tripar . Li. 2. Ca. 10. Primò Athenis Romam translatum est studium Philosophicum : Deinde Roma Parisios tempore Caroli , vt dicunt Historiae● Firste the studie of Philosophie was translated from Athenes to Rome : and afterwarde , as the Stories saie , in the time of the Emperoure Charles , it was translated from Rome to Parise .

What shal I more saie ? The Pope him selfe in his owne Decretalles saithe , Rome is an Vniuersitie . Extra . De Priuilegijs , Li. 4. Cum de diuersis . In Sexto . These be his wordes , Curia Romana habet Studium Generale , & eius priuilegia : The Courte of Rome hath an Vniuersal Studie , and the Priuileges of the same . And againe Pope Clemens saithe , In Studijs Romanae Curiae , Parisijs , Oxonij , Bononiae , Salamancae debent esse Professores Linguarum , Hebraicae , Clemen Lib. 5. De Magistris . Chaldaicae , Arabicae : In the Vniuersities of Rome , of Parise , of Oxforde , of Bononie , and of Salamanca , there muste be Professours of the Hebrewe , Chaldee , and Arabike tongues .

To be shorte , Theodoricus Niemus , sommetime the Popes Secretarie , and therefore hauinge good cause , to knowe the trueth hereof , and , for ought that I knowe , no cause to dissemble , of this whole mater writeth thus : Et nunc est Titulus , Cardinalis praedictae Scholae . Theodoric . Niemus . Citatur ab Illyrico in Testia bus Veritatis . Et olim in ea legebantur Septem Artes Liberales , & praecipuè Rhetorica : & etiam in ea legit quandoque Beatus Augustinus : & Iohannes , vocatus de Anglia . Et fuit Mulier de Maguntia nata , quae studuit Athenis sub virili habitu : & in tantum profecit in Artibus , vt tandem veniens Romam , per biennium in eadem Schola Artes Liberales legerit : & adeò sufficiens fuit , vt etiam Maiores , & Nobiliores vrbis eius Lectiones frequenter audiuerint . Dame Iohane the Pope . Et posteà in Papam eligitur , &c. Euen nowe a Cardinal beareth the Title of the saide Schoole , or Vniuersitie of Rome . And in olde times the Seuen Liberal Sciences , and specially Rhetorique were readde in the same . There also sometime readde . S. Augustine : and one , that was called Iohn of Englande . This Iohn was a Woman , borne at Mens ( in Germanie ) , and had studied at Athenes in the apparel of a man : and had so profited in the Artes , that at laste comminge to Rome , twoo yeeres togeather she professed the Liberal Sciences in the same Schoole . And her gifte in teachinge was sutche , that the Elders , and Nobles of the Cittie resorted often to heare her reade . Afterwarde she was chosen Pope , &c.

Thus manie waies , M. Hardinge , haue wée founde an Vniuersitie , or Schole in Rome : and no cause to the contrarie , but Dame Iohane , beinge so wel learned , as it is saide , might wel be a Reader there .

But ye saie , The Popes time of trauaile . why keapte she not her selfe in ? Her Midwife might better answeare this question . But what if she were suddainely preuented before her time , as many be ? Or what if God would haue sutche a mater so openly knowen , to the euerlastinge Detestation , either of the Persone , or of the Place ? Certainely , Antoninus the Archebishop of Florence , beinge astonied with the horrour hereof , as it is saide before , Antomin . Par. 2. Titulo 16. Cap. 1. §. 7. crieth out , O the deapthe of the wisedome , and Knowledge of God . O howe vnsearcheable be his Iudgementes ?

The Authour hereof , Vt asseritur . saie you , durste not to auouche the mater for an vndoubted Truthe : but onely saithe , Vt asseritur , as it is saide : and so referreth al the whole to hearesaie . Notwithstandinge , M. Hardinge , many there be , that write this Storie , as a certaine Truthe , without doubtinge , or credite of hearesaie . And Platyna , al be it he would not séeme to auouche ouer mutche , for the honour of the See of Rome , yet thus he saithe , Platyna in Iohan 8. Quod ferè omnes affirmant : Whiche thinge in a manner al menne doo affirme . And Rauisius Textor saithe , Scitum est ex Chronicis , & à Maioribus Scriptum : It is knowen by the chronicles , In Officina . and written by our Elders . It is knowen , saithe one : It is affirmed in a manner by al menne , saithe an other : But for the space of eight hundred yéeres , & more , there was no Writer , I trowe , so impudente , that woulde condemne it for a Fable , as you doo , and vtterly denie it to be true .

Touchinge the Marble Image representinge a woman in childe bearinge , The Marble Image . and the Popes suddaine breakinge of his waie , in his solemne procession , let eche man weighe them , as him listeth . But , where ye compare that Image to one of the greate ragge stoanes at Stonage , or Longe Compton , as if it were vtterly vnwrought , and without shape , ye seeme wilfully to auouche , as your manner is , a greate Vntruthe . Theodoricus Niemus . Verily , Theodoricus Niemus , the Popes Secretarie , saithe , Et adhuc vetus Statua Marmorea illic posita figuratiuè monstrat ( hoc factum ) . Vnde Summi Pontifices , dum ad Lateranum de Basilica Principis Apostolorum , & contra vadunt , illud iter rectum non faciunt . Imò per alias vias per indirectum transeunt , illud aliquantulum prolongando : Euen vnto this daie an olde Marble Image there erected , vnder a Figure sheweth this mater . Therefore that Popes , when they passe from S. Peters Churche to Laterane , or backewarde , they take not their iorney streight foorthe : but passe vndirectly by other streetes , makinge their waie some what the longer . This therefore is not an olde Wiues dreame , as you saie , but the Iudgemente of sundrie the wiseste , and beste learned in Rome , who might best knowe the matter .

As for the Chaire of Porphyrie stoane , whiche otherwheres ye cal the Chaire of ease , The holow Chaire . it is too vile to be answeared . Sabellicus saithe , Spectatur adhuc in Pontificia domo Marmorea Sella , Sabellicus Enneadis . 9. Li. 1. circa medium inanis : qua Nouus Pontifex continuò ab eius Creatione residet : Vt sedentis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono attrectentur .

But , let Truthe be Falsehedde : and let Stories be Fables . Yet , M. Hardinge , it maie please you to remember , Dame Iohane the Pope . that the same Fable was raised firste in Rome , and from thence onely , & from no place els , was published abroade into the worlde . But let the Popes owne Secretaries , and al the people there be deceiued : and , to shadowe the shame of that See , let Rome it selfe be the Mother of lies . Let noman know the certaine Truthe of maters , but onely Onuphrius , the Popes Paraste , and M. Hardinge . Yet neither woulde so many Chronicles haue recorded , nor would the whole world so vniuersally haue beléeued these thinges of the Pope , more then of any other Bishop , had there not benne woonderful corruption of manners , and dissolution of Life , and open horrour , and filthinesse in that onely See aboue al others .

How be it , good Christian Reader , that thou maiste wel , and clearely vnderstande , that our dealinge herein is plaine , and simple , and that wée haue not imagined these mates , or any parcel thereof of our selues , maie it please thée to reade Platyna in Iohanne 8. Testimonies for the proufe of Pope Iohane . Sabellicus , Enneadis 9. li. 1. Leonicus Chalcondyla a Greeke writer , Li. 6. Marianus Scotus , that liued aboute the yéere of our Lorde 1028. Sigibertus Gemblacensis , that liued aboute the yeere of our Lorde , 1100. Mar●●us Polonus , the Popes Penitentiarie , whome M. Hardinge so mutche defaceth : that liued about the yéere of our Lorde , 1320. Rauisius Textor in Officina , Ca. Foeminae habitum virilem mentitae : Antoninus the Archebishop of Florence , par. 2. ti. 16. Volaterranus : Nauclerus : Carion : Constantinus Phrygio : Christianus Massaeus : Matthaeus Palmerius Florentinus : Supplementum Chronicorum : Chronica Chronicarum : Fasciculus temporum , and others moe . Of these somme liued foure hundred , somme fiue hundred yéeres agoe : and haue euer benne coumpted woorthy of somme Authoritie : notwithstandinge , for your Dame Iohanes sake , you , M. Hardinge , beginne nowe to clippe their credite . How be it , what so euer they were , certaine it is , They were no Lutheranes .

Notwithstandinge , somme of your owne Felowes of Louaine coulde haue taught you , to haue dealte herein more discretely : and not so precisely , and peremptorily to haue denied the whole Storie : specially beinge sente to you from your frendes in Rome , and confirmed by so many . And therefore one of your Louaniens would séeme handesomely to excuse , & shifte the mater by possibilitie of Nature . For thus he saithe in effecte , What if the Pope were Hermaphrodi as , an Herkinalson , Hermaphroditus . that is to saie , a man , and a woman ? bothe in one ? Or if this healpe wil not serue , he seemeth further to saie , What if the Pope , beinge firste a man , were afterwarde changed into a woman ? And thus , for wante of better Diuinitie , he forceth Ouides Metamorphoses to serue the turne . If yée would haue taken this mannes aduise , out of doubte with sutche a prety , What if , ye might soone haue put vs out of countenance . Copus Dialogo 1. Pag. 47. His woordes be these , Neque ego hic quicquam dico de Hermaphroditis , & 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , de quibus veterum libri pleni sunt . Et ne à nostri tempo●●s memoria longiùs abeam , non ignoro , monumentis literarum esse traditum , Mulierem quandam nomine Acmyliam , Antonio Spensae Ciui Ebulano nuptam , post duodecimum à nuptijs annum in virum transijsse . Legi etiam alteram Mulierem , vbi puerum peperisset , in marem fuisse mutatam : I wil here saie nothinge of sutche personnes , as be called Hermaphroditi , and are bothe Man , and Woman , al in one : whereof in olde Writers wee finde mutche mention . But not to goe further , then to the remembrance of our owne time , I knowe it is written , that a certaine woman named Aemylia , married vnto one Antonius Spensa a Citizen of Ebulum , tenne yeeres after shee had benne married , was turned into a man . I haue likewise readde of an other woman , that , when she had benne brought abedde , afterwarde became a Man . These notable Stories he allegeth , to answeare the mater of Pope Iohane . Thus he thinketh it a greate deale the safer waie , to make the Pope an Herkinalson , or by Miracle to turne him from a man into a woman , then simply , & plainely to confesse , that euer Dame Iohane was Pope in Rome .

If you had taken this same waie , then al this storie had benne a Fable : and a woman had benne a man : and wée had vtterly benne confounded .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 1.

But what neede we rehearse Concubines , and Bawdes ? For that is now an ordinarie , and a gaineful sinne in Rome . For Harlottes sitte there nowe a daies , Genes. 38. not as they did in times paste , without the Cittie walles , and with their faces hid and couered : but they dwel in Palaices & Faire Houses : thei stray aboute in Courte , and market , & that with bare and open face : as who would saie , they maie not onely lawfully doo it , but ought also to be praised for so dooinge . What should we saie any more of this ? Their vicious & abominable life is nowe thoroughly knowen to the whole worlde . Bernarde writeth roundely & truely of the Bishop of Romes house , yea & of the Bishop of Rome him selfe . Thy Palaice , saithe he , taketh in good menne , but it maketh none : naughty persones thriue there , and the good decaie . And , who so euer he were , whiche wrote the Tripartite woorke , annexed to the Councel of Larerane , he saithe thus , So excessiue at this daie is the riote , aswel in the Prelares and Bishoppes , as also in the Clerkes and Priestes , that it is horrible to be tolde . But these thinges be not onely growen in vre , and so by custome & continuance of time wel allowed , as al the reste of their dooinges in manner bee , but they are nowe waxen olde , and rotten ripe . For who hath not hearde , what a hainous acte Peter Aloisius , Pope Paule the thirdes Sonne committed againste Cosmus Cherius the Bishop of Fanum : what Iohn Casa , Archebishop of Beneuentum , the Popes Legate at Venice , wrote in the commendation of a moste abominable filthinesse : & how he set foorthe with moste lothesome woordes , and wicked eloquence , the mater , whiche ought not once to proceede out of any bodies mouthe ? To whose eares hath it not comme , that Alphonsus Diazius a Spaniarde , beinge pourposely sente from Rome into Germanie , so shamefully and Diuelishely murthered his owne Brother Iohn Diazius , a moste Innocente , and a moste Godly man , onely bicause he had embraced the Eospel of Iesus Christe , and woulde not returne againe to Rome ?

But it maie chaunce , to this they wil saie : These thinges maie sometime happen in the beste gouerned Common Wealthes , yea & against the Magistrates willes : & bisides , there be good Lawes made to pounishe sutche . I graunt , it be so : But by what good Lawes ( I would know ) haue these great mischieues benne pounished emongest them ? Petrus Aloisius , after he had donne that notorious Acte , that I spake of , was alwaies chearished in his Fathers bosome Pope Paule the thirde , and made his very dearlinge . Diazius , after he had murthered his owne Brother , Petrus Aloisius the Popes Sonne . was deliuered by the Popes meanes , to th ende he might not be pounished by good Lawes . Iohn Casa the Archebishop of Beneuentum is yet aliue , yea & liueth at Rome , euen in the eie and sighte of the moste holy Father .

M. Hardinge .

Courtisanes wente abroade , so as the Matrones doo : some rode on Mules , some dwelled in goodly houses . Whiche particulare disorders , * * Vntruthes greate and notorious . as there they continewed not many yeeres , * so in these daies they haue benne reformed . Wherein ye folowe the Father of your Haeresies , and schoolemaister of your malice the Deuill , Apocal. 12. who in Scripture is called Accusator Fratrum nostrorum , the accuser of our Brethren .

But sirs , how leape ye from Rome to Placentia , from the Cleregy to a Temporall Duke , whome ye call the Popes Sonne , though he was not his Sonne beinge Pope , but by lawful Matrimonie before holy Orders taken ? For suche a one was Peter Aloisius of whom ye speake . Be it , that he was an euill man . What maketh that against the Churche ? Iohan. Casa . what for Defence of your newe Gospell ? If Iohannes Casa beinge yet a younge spring all , before he came to be a Clerke , and longe before he was either Bishop or Legate , O , a faire Boonegrace , to bewtifie open and knowen wickednesse . made certaine amorous Sonettes in Italian rime , foloweinge the Italian poete Petrarcha , to whiche kinde of exercise the good wittes of Italy in youth are muche geuen , and without naminge any persone , flatteringly smoothed that heinous facte , rather then praised , wherein neuerthelesse he did euill , we confesse , and for the same ouersight of his youth , was notwithstandinge his other excellent qualities kepte backe from the dignitie of Cardinalship duringe his life : all this beinge graunted and considered , what hindereth it the estimation of Christes Churche ? And what furthereth it your false Doctrine , your Schismes , and your Heresies ? Touchinge the Deathe of Iohn Diazius the Spaniarde , ye tell * * Vntruthe . For wee tel no Lie . Reade the Answeare . many lies at once .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée leapte not so lightly to Placentia , M. Hardinge , but rather reaste at Verona , and saie the Truthe . For Pope Paulus , that should haue pounished his wicked Sonne , and haue burnte him to deathe for his abominable outrage , remoued not to Placentia , Iohan. Sleidan . Li. 19. but remained stil in Rome . Iohannes Sleidanus saithe , that the yonge Gentleman , the Bishop of Fanum , vpon whome Petrus Aloisius the Popes Sonne had shewed that horrible villanie , shortely after died for shame , and heauinesse . Yet , he saithe , it is thought of somme , that Petrus Aloisius , after his wicked acte committed , gaue him poison , and so killed him , leaste he should make complainte thereof vnto the Emperoure . He addeth further , Paulus nihil ò secius impensè amabat Filium : & ad ipsius amplificationem omne studium conuertit . Et cùm de eius flagitijs nonnunquam audiret , fertur non admodum aegrè tulisse : & hoc solùm consueuisse dicere , Haec illum vitia non se commonstratore didicisse : Pope Paule neuerthelesse fauoured his Sonne aboue measure : and bestowed al his care , to encrease him in Honoure . And , whereas he hearde sometime of his shamful actes , the reporte is , that he was not mutche offended therewith : but vsed onely thus to saie , Wel , yew is he neuer learned these vices by my example . So cruel , and terrible is the Pope in repressinge of Sinne .

But God of his Iustice would not suffer sutche abomination to escape vnpounished . Certaine of the Nobles of his owne Cittie , not longe after , arose againste him , & slewe him in his owne Palaice , & hunge out his vile Carkesse in shameful sorte , by a chaine ouer the walles , & afterwarde threwe it ouer into the mote . The people of al sortes ranne gladly to the sight : and stabbe him in on euery side with theire Daggers : and trodde him filthily vnder theire feete .

Yée saie , the particulare disorders of your Courteghianes in these daies at the laste haue benne Refourmed . And yet by very credible reporte , euen within these twoo yeeres , whiche was in the yéere of our Lorde 1565. Iohannes Diazius . by a persite viewe taken , there were founde in Rome to the number of eight & twentie thousande weemen of that sorte . If this be the Reformation of the Churche of Rome , what was it then , before it was thus Refourmed ?

As for that moste horrible Booke of Iohannes Casa , so vile , and so lothesome , that no Heathen eares coulde abide to heare it , O howe fauourably , and howe frendely it is excused ? He was then , ye saie , but a yonge man : but a springal : no Bishop : no Clerke : He named no personne : It was but a kinde of exercise : an ouersighte : an Amorous Sonette : The good wittes of Italie be muche geuen to it : He praised not that faulte , but onely smoothed it . O M. Hardinge , what abomination is there vnder Heauen , but ye can diuise waies , howe to smoothe it ?

But he was pounished , ye saie , ful soare for his ouersight . For he coulde neuer be made Cardinal , duringe his Life . Yea , good M. Hardinge : And al this muste wée beléeue , bicause you speake it . The Pope made him the Archebishop of Beneuentum , and Legate a Latere , and thereby one of his Secrete Councel , in parte of this cruel pounishmente . But , though he vpon that , or somme other occasion , were keapte backe from beinge Cardinal , yet were there others made Cardinalles , in al respectes as had , Andre . Alciatus in Epist. praefixa Historiae Pauli Iouij . as he . Reade Andreas Alciatus , that notable Ciuilian : And ye shal finde , what a minion was made Bishop of Comum , when Paulus Iouius was put biside . Reade Paulus Iouius in the Life of Clemens . 7. and learne , what prety folkes then were made Cardinalles , and for what causes . As for your owne Onuphrius , he speaketh Parables , and casteth colours , and woulde seeme to meane more hereof , Paulus Iouius . Onuphrius in Iulio . 3. then he durste to vtter .

The Emperour Tiberius sommetime placed Nouellius Tricongius in most highe and Honorable roome , and made him Proconsul , in parte of recompense of his good seruice , Sueton. Tranquil . in Tiberio . Tricongium vno Spiritu . for that he was able to drinke three pottles of Wine togeather with one breathe . This was not the woorthiest cause of promotinge sutche Magistrates to suche a roome : yet was there more honoure , and honestie in this cause of prefermente , then hath benne thought to be in the preferringe of sundrie Cardinalles .

Touchinge the murtheringe of Iohannes Diazius by his owne Brother Alphonsus , wherein , ye saie , wee haue tolde you so many lies at once , wée referre ourselues to the Storie thereof truely written by Iohannes Sleidanus : Iohan. Sleidan Lib. 17. the effecte whereof in shorte is this : One Iohannes Diazius a Spaniarde , and a Doctour of Sorbona in Parise , after that God had geuen him grace to vnderstande the Truthe of the Gospel , An. 1546. departed from thence , and came into Germanie , and reasted at Nuburge in the Dominion of Otho Henricus Countie Palatine . His Brother Alphonsus Diazius , beinge then in Rome , and vnderstandinge hereof , immediately tooke Horses , and with al speede came into Germanie , mindinge to withdrawe his Brother from his pourpose . And findinge him constante , and steadfaste , and not likely any waies to be remoued , in the ende he fained him selfe , by the weight of his reasons , to be persuaded to the same Religion : & desired him to returne with him into Italie , for that he should doo more good there , then he could in Germanie . But séeinge him for sundrie causes firmely bente to staie there , he tooke his leaue , and departed thence , and exhorted him to continewe constante in the Truthe , and came to Augusta , sixe Dutche miles from Nuburge . The nexte daie , as hauinge foregotten some special mater , he had to saie to his Brother , he retourned backe againe from thence to Nuburge , and by the waie bought a Carpenters axe , and entringe into the Towne vpon the. 27. of Marche , he came to his Brothers lodginge at the breake of the daie , and him selfe watchinge beneath , sente vp his seruante with the Axe to doo the deede . The seruante , after he had called foorthe Iohannes Diazius , and had deliuered him a letter from his Brother Alphonsus , and sawe him turned towardes the lighte to reade the same , came suddainely behinde him , and strooke him in the heade with his Axe , and leauinge it stickinge in the wounde , came awaie togeather with Alphonsus his Maister . This is the very true storie hereof , M. Hardinge , and in al these woordes there is no lie . Touchinge your Courteghianes , yee saie , the Pope of late hathe made a general Reformation . For now thei are bothe remoued from their faire Palaices , wherein they dwelte , & also put from their Mules : As if the faulte had benne onely in their Mules , or Houses , and not rather in their whole trede of life . Certainely , the same weemen continewe stil , euen in the Cittie of Rome , and that vnto the number of eight & twentie thousande , as it is saide before . Sutche is the Reformation of the Churche of Rome .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 1. & . 2.

They haue killed infinite numbers of our Brethrene , onely bicause they beleeued truely , & sincerely in Iesus Christe . But of that great and foule number of Harlottes , Fornicatours , Adulterers , what one haue they at any time ( I saie not , put to deathe ) but either Excommunicate , or once attached ? Why ? Volupteousnesse , Adulterie , Ribaudrie , Whoredome , Murtheringe of kinne , Ineeste , and others more abominable partes , are not these coumpted Sinne at Rome ? Or , if thei be Sinne ought Christes vicar , Peters Successour , the moste holy Father , so lightly , & stiely to beare them , as though they were no Sinne , & that in the Cittie of Rome , & in that Principal Tower of al Holinesse ? O holy Scribes and Phariseis , whiche neuer knewe this kinde of Holinesse . O what a Holinesse , what a Catholique Faithe is this ? Peter did not thus teache at Rome : Paule did not so liue at Rome : they did not practise brothelrie , as these doo openly : they made not a yeerely reuenewe and profite of Harlottes : they suffered no common Adulterours , and wicked Murtherers to goe vnpounished . They did not receiue them into theire familiaritie , into their Councel , into their householde , nor yet into the companie of Christen men . These menne ought not therefore so vnreasonably to triumphe againste our liuinge . It had benne more wisedome for them , either firste , to haue proued good their owne life before the worlde , or at the leaste , to haue cloked it a litle more cunningly . For wee doo vse stil the Olde and Auncient Lawes , & ( asmuche as men maie doo , in the manners vsed at these daies , al thinges beinge so wholy corrupte ) we diligently , and earnestly put in execution the Ecclesiastical Discipline : wee haue not common Brothel houses of Strumpettes , nor yet flockes of Concubines , nor Heardes of Harlotte haunters : neither doo wee preferre Adulterie before Matrimonie : neither doo wee exercise beastly sensualitie : neither doo wee geather ordinarie rentes and stipendes of Stewes : nor doo wee suffer Inceste , and abominable naughtinesse , nor yet sutche Aloisians , Casians , and Diazians to escape vnpunished . For if these thinges would haue pleased vs , wee needed not to haue departed from these mennes felowship , emongest whom sutche enormities be in their chiefe pride and price . Neither needed we for leauinge them , to renne into the hatred of menne , and into moste wilful daungers .

Paule the Fourthe , not many monethes sithence , hadde at Rome in prison certaine Augustine Freers , many Bishops , and a greate numbre of other deuoute menne , for Religions sake . Hee racked them , and tormented them : to make them confesse , hee leafte no meanes vnassaied . But in the ende how many Brothels , howe many Whoremongers , how many Adulterers , how many Incestuous persones coulde he finde of al those ?

M. Hardinge .

This yee denie as impudently , as ye affirmed the other matter of Diazius falsely . Wherefore what pounishement is due to slaunderers , that ought this Defender to haue for this false slaunder . Then commeth me your Secretarie , and praiseth him selfe , and all you his holie companions , besides all witte and modestie . And saithe muche in commendation of your Ministershippes goodnesse , for that ye keepe and vse still the Olde and Auncient Lawes , forsoothe , and discipline of the Churche .

For Shame , A braue , and a lusty kinde of Eloquence . for Conscience , for regarde of the worlde , for feare of Gods wrathe , for auoidinge euerlastinge fyre , retourne to the Catholike Churche , from whence ye are broken out like the faite Bulles Basan , put awaie your moste vnlawfull yokefellowes . Leaue your selues to be abominable , before with suche spitefull railinge ye reprehende our ‡ ‡ Fornication , Open Stewes , and Inceste , are M. Hardinges Infirmities . Infirmitie .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 3.

Our God be thanked , although we be not the menne , we ought , and professe to be , yet whosoeuer we be , compare vs with these menne , and euen our owne life and Innocencie wil soone proue vntrue , and condemne their maliceouse surmises . For we exhorte the people to al vertue and wel dooinge , not onely by Bookes and preachinges , but also by our examples and behaueour . Wee also teache that the Gospel is not a boastinge , or bragginge of knowledge , but that it is the Lawe of life , and that a Christian man ( as Tertullian saithe ) ought not to speake honorably , but ought to liue honorably : nor that they be the hearers of the Lawe , but the dooers of the Lawe , whiche are iustified before God .

M. Hardinge .

Nay , nay , Syrs , for that thinge ye crake so muche of , be not to hastie to thanke your God . What peculiare God ye meane , we knowe not . That phrase your secretarie muche vseth , as though ye had an other God beside him that is God of all . Compare your selues with whom ye list , your owne life and innocencie is so wel knowen , as by reprouinge your vices and horrible sinnes , no man lightly shal seme a slaunderer . In deede if your continuall aduoutrie and Incest were laufull Matrimonie , if your filthy yoke fellowes were your true wedded wiues , if your robbinge , and throwinge downe of Churches were almose , and buildinge of places for praier to the encrease of Gods Honour , if ignorant rashenesse were godly discretion , if your woorde of the Lorde , where Gods woorde , if your pretensed Gospel , were Christes true Gospel , if your biblebable and railing were holsome Preachinge , if the Sprite of Sathan , that is in you , the same also beinge a lyinge Sprite in your mouthes , coulde be meeke , humble , * * Is this the modestic the sprite of God . obedient , and woulde tell Truthe , finally if euill were good , if darkenesse were light , if sower were sweete , Our God . our Lord . if the fruites of your so naughty a tree were good : we would also soothe you , and vpholde your immoderate crakes . Wee saie plainely of you at one woorde , whiche we will to be a watche woorde for all Christen people to beware of you , your Doctrine is Heresie , your Life is iniquitie , your endeuour tendeth to the subuersion of Soules .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It is no greate Crake , M. Hardinge , to géeue God thankes . But what vncourteous dealinge is this of your parte ? Sir Defender , and his Felowes muste comme to you , & learne to speake . Notwithstandinge for ought , that maie appeare , yee are not yet very wel aduised , howe to speake your selfe . Nowe , bicause wée saie , wee thanke our God , our Secretarie hath made him selfe a Seueral God . How be it , you maie saie , Our Lorde , and thinke him not Catholique , that wil saie otherwise : and yet make you not your selues thereby any Seueral Lorde . God geue you Grace , ye be not seuered from the Lorde . But wherefore it shoulde be more lawful for you , to saie , Our Lorde , then for vs , to saie , Our God , I thinke it a highe pointe of cunninge for you to open .

Thus ye woulde haue vs sommetimes to saie , Our Lorde : sometimes , The Lorde : sommetimes neither . It were a skilful Cooke , that knewe your diete . Howe be it , Psalm. 46. The Prophete Dauid saithe , Psalm. 64. Deus noster refugium , Psalm. 113. & Vrtius : Psalm. 63. Our God , our Refuge , Psalm. and our Strengthe ? Psalm. 67. Singe Psalmes vnto Our God : 1. Corinth . 1. & 14. Our God is the God of Saluation : Philip. 1. Our God is in Heauen : 1. Corinth . 6. My God , ô My God , I wake earely vnto thee : Thou arte My God : I truste in thee : My lotes are in thy handes . S. Paule saithe , I thanke My God alwaies : I geeue thankes vnto My God . Thus was it lawful then for the Apostles , and Propehtes to speake without rebuke : neither was there any M. Hardinge then so vncourteous , to saie , They made them selues a peculiar God .

S. Paule saithe , Wee are iustified in the name of Iesus Christe our Lorde , and in the Sprite of Our God . S. Augustine saithe , Contra istos Mirabiliarios cautum me fecit Deus Meus , Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta . 13. August . De Ci●i . Li. Cap. 29. Chrysostom . in Psalm . 96. dicens , In Nouissimis diebus surgent Falsi Prophetae : My God hath willed me to beware of these Mungers of Miracles , tellinge me , that in the laste daies there shal rise vp False Prophetes . Againe he saithe , Deus Meus vbique praesens est : Vbique totus : nusquam inclusus : My God is euerywhere presente : euerywhere whole : nowhere inclosed , or shut vp . Chrysostome saithe , Christo meo testificabantur & Venti , & Mare : Bothe the Windes , and the Sea bare witnesse to my Christe .

S. Hierome saithe , Hierony . Aduersus error . Iohan. Hierosoly mitan . Cyprian . De Bono Poenitentiae . Sedulius , In. 2. Corinth. 6. Ego non Patrem , non Matrem , non Germanum aduersus Christum meum audiam : I wil not heare neither Father , nor Mother , nor Brother against my Christe . S. Cyprian saithe , Hic est Deus noster , id est , non omnium , sed Credentium , & Fidelium Deus : This is Our God , that is to saie , not the God of al , but the God of the Beleeuers , and of the Faitheful . Sedulius saithe , Deus Naturâ omnium est : Voluntate verò paucorum : God by Nature , is the God of al : but by wil , he is the God of Fewe . But what shal wée neede many Doctours , the case beinge so cleare ? You your selfe , M. Hardinge , in this selfe same Booke , either of pourpose vpon somme better aduise , or vnwares , haue written the same . Consider wel your owne woordes : M. Hard. Fol. 124. b. Galat. 2. Thus ye saie , There is no iniquitie in Our Lorde God . Yet , I trowe , by these woordes , ye make not to your selfe a peculiare God .

S. Paule saithe , I liue in the Faithe of the Sonne of God , whiche hath loued me , and hath geeuen him selfe for my sake . Whiche woordes S. . Chrysostome , writinge vpon the Genesis , Chrysostom . in Genesim . Homi. 34. expoundeth thus : Qui dilexit me , &c. Vt proprium vsurpas commune beneficium . Profectò , inquit : Nam licet pro omni hominum genere Sacrificium oblatum sit , tamen propter amorem in eum , id , quod factum est omnibus , proprium mihi facio . Ita & Prophetis mos est , & facere , & dicere , Deus , Deus Meus : quamuis totius Orbis sit Deus . Sed peculiare hoc est amori , vt ex communibus propria faciat . Qui dilexit me . Quid dicis ? An te dilexit solum ? Omnem , inquit , hominum Naturam dilexit . Sed ego illi Gratias debeo , quasi me Solum dilexisset , & tradidisset semetipsum pro me Solo. S. Paule saithe , Christe hath loued me . O Paule , The benefite , that is common to al , thou vsest as peculiare to thee selfe . Yea verily , saithe S. Paule : For al be it that Sacrifice were offered for al Mankinde , yet for the loue , that I beare towardes him , the thinge that was donne to al , I accoumpte as proper , and seueral to mee selfe Alone . Thus the manner of the Prophetes is to doo , and to saie , O God , my God : notwithstandinge be is the God of al the Worlde . But this is the special , and alonely office of Loue , of thinges common to make thinges peculiare . Thou saiste , Christe hath Loued mee . What saistet thou ? Hath Christe loued thee Onely , and ●oman els ? No , saithe Paule , He hath loued al Mankinde . But I owe him thankes , as if he had loued mee Alone , and had geuen him selfe Onely for me .

Hencefoorthe , M. Hardinge , it maie please you to géeue vs leaue to speake , as the Prophetes , the Apostles , the Holy Fathers , and Doctours haue spoken before vs .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 1.

Bisides al these maters , wherewith they charge vs , they are woont also to adde this one thinge , which thei enlarge with al kinde of spite : that is , that wee be menne of trouble , that we plucke the Sworde , and Scepter out of Kinges handes : that we arme the people : that we ouerthrowe iudgement places , destroie the Lawes , make hauoke of possessions , seeke to make the people Princes , turne al thinges vpside downe : and , to be shorte , that we woulde haue nothinge in good frame in a Common Wealthe . Good Lorde , how often haue they set on fiere Princes hartes , with these woordes , to the ende thei mighte quenche the lighte of the Gospel in the very firste appearinge of it , & that menne might beginne to hate the same , ere euer they were able to knowe it , and to the ende that euery Magistrate mighte thinke , he sawe his deadly enimie , as often as he sawe any of vs . Surely it shoulde excedingly greeue vs , to be so malitiously accused of moste hainous Treasone , onlesse we knewe , that Christe him selfe , the Apostles , and a number of good Christian menne , were in time paste blamed , and reuiled in like sorte . For although Christe taught , they shoulde geeue vnto Cesar , that whiche was Cesars , yet was he charged with sedition , and was accused to diuise some Conspiracie , and to seeke waies to geate the Kingedome . And thereupon they cried out with open mouthe againste him in the place of Iudgemente : Yf thou let this man escape , then thou arte not Cesars frende .

And though the Apostles did likewise euermore , and stedfastly teache , that Magistrates ought to be obeied , that euery soule ought to be subiect to the Higher Powers , not onely for feare of wrathe , & punishemente , but euen for conscience sake , yet bare they the name to disquiet the people , and to stirre vp the multitude to rebelle . After this sorte did Haman specially bringe the Nation of the Iewes into the hatred of Kinge Assuerus , bicause , saide he , they were a rebellious and stubborne People , The Boures in Germanie . and despised the ordinaunces , and commaundementes of Princes . 3. Reg. 18. Wicked Kinge Achab saide to Elie the Prophete of God , It is thou , that troublest Israel . Amasias , the Prieste at Bethel , Amos. 7. laide a conspiracie to the Prophete Amos charge , before Kinge Ieroboam , saieinge , See , Amos hath made a conspiracie againste thee , in the middest of the House of Israel . To bee briefe , Tertul. in Apologetico . Tertullian saithe , This was the general accusation of al Christians , whiles he liued , that thei were Traitours , that thei were Rebelles , and the enimies of Mankinde . Wherefore , if now adaies the Truthe be likewise euil spoken of , and beinge the same Truthe , it was then , if it be now like despitefully vsed , as it was in times paste , though it be a greuous and vnkinde dealinge , yet can it not seeme vnto vs a newe , or an vnwoonted matter .

M. Hardinge .

Howe farre ye haue attempted ( I meane the sectes of your Brotherhed ) in sundry Countries , to wreaste the Swoorde out of Princes handes , to transpose their Scepters at your pleasure , and to alter states and signories , though wee holde our peace , * * Vntruthe , notorious , and manifeste to al the worlde . the worlde Iudgeth , the Bloudde of so many thousandes slaine speaketh , Englande repenteth , Scotlande mourneth , Germanie roareth , Fraunce bewaileth , Sauoie weepeth , all Christendome lamenteth . ‡ ‡ These Boures for the greatest parte were enimies vnto Luther . Were the hundred thousande Boures of Germanie consumed by the Swoorde of the Nobilitie there for their obedience ? The Duke of Saxonie , and Lantgraue of Hesse , were they ouerthrowen in fielde and taken captiue , for standinge in Defence of their Soueraigne ? Were so greate multitudes of people destroied at Munster for their loyaltie ? Your Sacramentarie Suitzers of Berna , who robbed the quiet Olde Duke of Sauoye of his Townes , and Countries , from the farther side of the lake of Geneua vnto the Alpes , did they this for mainetenance of his righte , and to set him at reste with litle ? What meante ye , when ye laide your Heades togeather , beinge at Geneua in Queene Maries daies , the Faithfull * * Al this greate multitude of Englande , and Scotland , stoode onely in twoo personnes . Wee knowe no moe . Brothers of Englande , and Scotlande , and deuised a most Seditious and Traiterous Booke againste the monstrous regiment of Women ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , for wante of mater , ye thought it good policie , to furnishe your tale with stoare of woordes : The Worlde iudgeth : Bloude speaketh : Englande repenteth : Scotlande mourneth : Germanie roareth : Fraunce bewaileth : Sauoie weepeth : Christendome lamenteth . If ye had not wel studied your Copia Verborum , ye coulde neuer haue benne halte so copious , nor haue benne hable , so many waies to vtter nothinge . Yee might happily haue saide , Your Cardinalles crie , and your Pope roareth , and your Frendes stande aluffe , and teare their heare , and saie , as it is written in the Apocalyps , Apocalyp. 18. Vae , vae Babylon , Ciuitas illa Magna : Alas , alas Babylon , that Greate Cittie .

God be thanked , The Kingedomes , & Princehoodes of the worlde stande nowe in as safe , & in as quiet , and florishinge state , as euer before . Therefore this Tragical Rhetorique might better haue serued you somme other where .

The Boures of Germanie , of whome ye speake , for the greattest parte , were Aduersaries vnto Doctour Luther , and vnderstoode no parte of the Gospel : but conspired togeather , as they saide , onely against the crueltie , and tyrannie of their Lordes : as they had donne twoo and twentie yéeres before in the same Countrie , in the Conspiracie , Liga Sotularia . An. 1503. called Liga Sotularia , fifteens yéeres before Doctour Luther beganne to Preache : The parteners of whiche Conspiracie had for their watche woorde the name of Our Lady : and in the honoure of her , Regiment of weemen . were bounde to saie fiue Aue Maries euery daie . D. Luther began to Preache , An. 1518. Certainely , touchinge these Later Rebelles , it is knowen , that Luther sharpely and vehemently wrote againste them . And they them selues beinge demaunded thereof , Iohan. Sleidan . Lib. 4. & 5. vtterly denied bothe partetakinge , & also the knowledge of the Gospel .

The Princes of Germanie raised not theire Powers , as ye saie , againste the Emperoure Charles the fifthe : Paralipomen . Vrspergen . Anno , 1525. but beinge wrongefully , & contrarie to the Lawe of Armes inuaded by him , they were forced , beinge frée Princes , by the Lawe of Nature , to drawe their swoorde in their owne Defence .

The Rebelles at Mounster were not Gospellers , Nicola . Gerbellius Phortzensis . as yée seeme to meane , but frantique Anabaptistes , and Heretiques , as yee be : and therefore enimies vnto the Gospel .

The Lordes of Berna neuer were Subiectes to the Duke of Sauoie . That they tooke certaine of his Castles in their Confines , then did it rightly , and by the Lawe of Armes , beinge forced thereto by daiely inuasions , & robberies , and not hable otherwise to liue in reaste . But in deede the saide poore Duke was thorowly spoiled of his whole Dominion : of the one halfe , by his Brother in Lawe the Emperour Charles . 5. of the other halfe , by his Neuewe Francise the Frenche Kinge , by the counsel of Pope Clemens . 7. after their great enterviewe at Marsiles . And thereof was diuised a prety Pasquil , declaringe the miserable case of the poore Duke , Diuiserunt sibi vestimenta mea : & super vestem meam miserunt sortem : They haue diuided my apparel emongest them selues : and they haue caste lotes for my Coate .

The Heades of Englande , and Scotlande , that , as ye saie , were laide togeather at Geneua , touchinge the gouernemente of Wéemen , beinge wel accoumpted , were nothinge so many , as ye woulde seeme to imagine . For if there had benne but one lesse , for ought , that I haue hearde , there had benne but one at al. Sutche hoate Amplifications it liketh you to make of so smal a number . Wée wil defende noman in his erroure . Let euery man beare his owne guilte . M. Caluine , M. Martyr , M. Musculus , M. Bullinger , and others , whom you cal the Faithful Brothers of Englande , misliked that enterprise , and wrote againste it .

Wée knowe , that God hath determined this mater longe sithence : For thus he saith , Numer. 27. Si Homo moriatur absque Filio , ad Filiam eius transibit Haereditas : If a Man die without a Sonne , his enheritance shal passe vnto his Daughter . And S. Augustine saithe , August . De Ciuita Li. 3. Ca. 21. Lata est Romae Lex illa Voconia , Ne quis Haeredem Foeminam faceret , nec Vnicam Filiam . Qua Lege quid iniquis dici , aut cogitari possit , ignoro : There was a Lawe made in Rome , called Lex Voconia , That noman should conueie his Enheritaunce vnto a woman , no not vnto his onely Daughter . Then whiche Lawe I knowe not , what maie be more wickedly thought , or spoken .

But , God be thanked , that of his Mercie , hath nowe raised vp vnto vs a Woman of sutche Wisedome , Learninge , Clemencie , Grauitie , Iudgement , Gouernement , and other Noble , and Princely Vertues , as haue not benne seene in many menne . God encrease her dayly with his Holy Sprite , and make her and olde Mother in Israel . Amen .

Of your sturdy blastes , and Secrete breathinges , M. Hardinge , I wil saie nothinge . Yée maie yet remember , whiche of your companie it was , that in the time of that Noble Prince of Blessed Memorie Kinge Edwarde the .6 . saide in open Parlamente , Woe be to that Kingedome , the Prince whereof is a Childe . And afterwarde , séeinge the Queenes Maiestie , that nowe is , placed in her estate , boldely , & openly confessed a greate euersighte , and mutche folie in your former dooinges , for that in the late time of your vnruely gouernmente ye had hewen downe the boughes , & leafte the Stocke standinge stil . Goddes Secrete Prouidence , M. Hardinge , breathed againste you , and confounded your dooinges . Power onely ye lacked : but good wil yée lacked none .

M. Hardinge .

For answeare to all this , ye ioine your selues with Christe and his Apostles , as though yee were gilty herein no more , then they . Presumptuously saide . But the matter is not so answeared . And yet yee runne at large in that common place , and very vainely , or rather Luciferlike , compare your selues with the Apostles . But Sirs , staie here , runne no farther . Yee are soone stopped . The case is not like pardie . These be but your woordes . In the Apostles was the Truthe in deede , so was it in the Holy Prophetes , and those firste Blessed men of the Churche . The Truthe yee boaste and crake so muche of , is not that Truthe . Talke lesse like Rhetoricians , and proue vs that yee haue Truthe , like honest men . And then talke on : But that can ye neuer doo , so longe as ye remaine out of the Churche , and ennemies to the Churche . * * O vaine brauerie . But what spende I woordes in vaine ? Your hartes be hardened , your Eies be blinded , your Eares be stopped .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here is profounde stuffe , M. Hardinge , for a Doctour of DIuinitie . To answeare you with your owne vaine woordes , in deede ye spende your woordes in vaine .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 2.

Fourtie yeeres agoe , and vpwarde , it was an easy thinge for them to diuise against vs these accursed speaches , & other too , soarer then these : when in the middest of the darkenesse of that age , firste beganne to springe , and to geeue shine somme one glimmeringe beame of Truthe , vnknowen at that time , and vnhearde of : when also Martine Luther , and Hulderike Zwinglius , beinge most excellente menne , euen sente of God , to geeue lighte to the whole worlde , firste came vnto the knowlege , and preachinge of the Gospel : when as yet the thinge was but newe , and the successe thereof vncertaine : and when mens mindes stoode doubtful and amased , and their eares open to al sclaunderous tales : and when there coulde bee imagined againste vs no facte so detestable , but the people then woulde soone beleeue it , for the noueltie and strangenesse of the matter . For so did Symmachus , so did Celsus , so did Iulianus , so did Porphyrius the olde foes to the Gospel , attempte in times past to accuse al Christians of Sedition and Treason , before that either Prince , or people were able to knowe , who those Christians were , what thei professed , what they beleeued , or what was their meaninge .

M. Hardinge .

As ye runne foorthe your race , and with lieinge amplification boaste and bragge of the Truthe of your Doctrine , and of the Innocencie of your demeanour , yee fall into a greate inconuenience and ouersighte . Was the lighte extinguished in all Israell , till that lewde Friere came , and Zwinglius ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , malicious , and sclaunderous . For Zainglius was a Godly Preacher , and no Rutter . the swarte Rutter ? Shall we now change the olde songe of Micheas the Prophete . Out of Sion shal come the Lawe , Miche . 4. and the woorde of our Lorde from Ierusalem , and singe a new Songe , Out of * * This Blasphemie toucheth Goddes Prouidence . For why not a , wel from Wittenberg , as from Rome ? Wittenberg is come the Gospel , and the woorde of the Lorde from Zurich , and Geneua ? If Luther and Zwinglius firste came to the knowledge and preachinge of the Gospel , Wittenberg . Churche Inuisible . what meante Christe to breake his promise , who saide , I wil be with you al daies til the ende of the worlde ?

Againe howe forgate ye the olde prouerbe , a lier it behoueth to be mindeful ? Remember ye not howe this is * * Vntruth fond , and childishe . contrary to al your owne Doctrine ? For saie ye not other where s , that God had alwaies his number of the electe , and his inuisible Churche ? Therefore this muste ye recante and cal backe againe , or els shal ye pul al the rable of sundry your owne sectes vpon your shoulders , whose filthy railinges , This is M. Hardinges sobrietie and vile vpbraidinges poore soules ye shal neuer be able to abide .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It is not woorthe the while , to answeare him , that saithe nothinge . Sion , from whence ye saie , the Lawe of God issued firste , was in those daies , as mutche disdeigned of you Fathers , Origen . Contr● Celsum . Lib. 1. as is this daie of your Geneua , or Wittenberg . Origen saith of Celsus the Heathen , Christianum Dogma affirmat à Barbaris cepisse ortum , hoc est , à Iudaeis : He saithe , that the Christian Faith tooke her first beginning from Barbarous people , Cicero . De Prouin . Consul . that is to saie , from the Iewes . Cicero saithe , Iudaei , & Syri , Gentes natae seruituti : The Iewes , and Syrians , Nations borne to Bondage .

And Chrysostome , Chrysost. Contra Gentes . speaking of Iulianus the Renegate , saith thus , Galilaeos nos , pro Christianis , in Edictis suis appellauit : In his proclamations , in the steede of Christians , he called vs scornefully Galileans : Notinge thereby the vilenesse of the place , from whence the Gospel of Christe firste proceded . But Nazianzene saith , Honora paruam Bethleem , Nazianzen . De Natali Christi . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . quae te induxit in Paradisum : ( Despise not , but rather ) Honour that litle Bethleem , that hath leadde thee into Paradise .

The sounde of this simple , Barbarous , despised people was hearde throughout the whole worlde . God causeth his Light to shine out of the Darke : His Holy Sprite breatheth , where he thinketh good : He hath no regarde of Personnes , or choise of places , Psal. 18. 3. Actor . but , as S. Peter saide vnto Cornelius , In euery Nation , who so euer feareth him , Iohan. 10 and woorketh righteousnesse , is accepted before him . God chuseth the weake thinges of the world , to confounde the stronge . Goddes Holy Name be blessed , that of so litle , and so simple a despised Mustard séede , Matth. 13. hath now raised vp so greate a trée : & triumpheth the Gospel of Christe his Sonnne in euery place throughout the worlde . 1. Cor. 1.

What meant Christe , saie you , to breake his promisse ? Nay , what meante you , M. Hardinge , so shamefully to breake Christes Commaundemente , and yet to charge him with his Promisse ? God is true in al his promisses , and shal preuaile , when he is so lewdely iudged . There is no faulte in God , or his Christe : The faulte is in you , that haue made of the House of God , a Caue of Theeues . Christe neuer made any sutche special Promisse vnto the Pope , that what so euer it should please him to saie , or doo , hée shoulde neuer erre , or doo amisse . Yee presume ouer mutche of Goddes Promisses . Nay , though Antichriste should be Pope , yet should Christes promisses be true stil .

It is true , that God hath alwaies a Churche Inuisible , and a number of Electe , knowen onely to him selfe alone . Neither is this our onely saieing . S. Paule also saithe the same : 2. Tim. 2. Firmum stat Fundamentum Dei , habens hoc sigillum , Nouit Dominus , qui sint sui : This Fundation standeth sounde , and firme , heuinge this Seale , The Lorde knoweth , whoo be his owne . Elias thought , al the Godly in Israel had benne slaine : and not one leafte aliue . But God saide vnto him , I haue soued vnto me selfe seuen thousand menne , 1. Reg. 19. that neuer bowed theire knee before Baal . Rom. 11.

God knewe them : but Elias knewe them not . To the iudgemente of man , they were inuisible . Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 45. Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Secundum occultam Dei Praedestinationem , plurimae sunt foris Oues : plurimi Lupi intùs . Nouit enim , ac signatos habet , qui nec eum , nec se norunt : Accordinge to Goddes Secrete Predestination , there be many Sheepe without the Church : and many woolues within the Churche . For he knoweth them , and hath them marked , that knowe neither them selues , nor God neither .

Thus the number of Goddes Electe , yea before the comminge of Christe , in the time of darkenesse , was euermore certaine : yet afterwarde the knowledge of the Gospel , by the Mouthes of the Apostles , was abundantly carried abroade into the endes of al the worlde .

Bothe these partes , M. Harding , maie stande wel togeather : and are nothinge contrarie to our Doctrine . Be the number of the Faithful more , or lesse , yet the Truthe of God is one for euer .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 1.

But now , sithence our very enimies doo see , and cannot denie , but wee euer in al our woordes , and writinges haue diligently put the people in minde of theire deutie , to obeie theire Princes , and Magistrates , yea though they be wicked , ( For this dooth very trial and experience sufficiently teache , and al mennes eies , who so euer , and where so euer they be , doo wel see , and witnesse for vs ) it was a foule parte of them to charge vs with these thinges : and , seinge they could finde no newe and late faultes , therefore to seeke to procure vs enuie onely with stale & outworne lies . We geeue our Lord God thankes , whose onely cause this is , there hathe yet at no time been any sutche example in al the Realmes , Dominions , & Common Weales , which haue receiued the Gospel . For wee haue ouerthrowen no Kingdome : Wee haue decaied no mans Power , or right : Wee haue disordered no Common Wealthe . There continue in theire owne accustomed state , and Aunciente Dignitie , the Kinges of our countrie of England , the Kinges of Denmarke , the Kinges of Suecia , the Dukes of Saxonie , the Counties Palatine , the Marquesses of Brandeburgh , the Lantsgraues of Hessia , the Common Wealthes of the Heluetians , & Rhetians , & the Free Citties , as Argentine , Basile , Franckford , Vlme , Augusta , & Norenberg , doe al , I saie , abide in the same Authoritie , and estate , wherein they haue benne heretofore : or rather in a mutche better , for that by meanes of the Gospel they haue theire people more obediente vnto them . Lette them goe , I praie you , into those places , where at this presente , through Goddes goodnesse , and Mercie , the Gospel is taught . Where is there more Maiestie ? Where is there lesse Arrogancie and Tyrannie ? Where is the Prince more honoured ? Where be the people lesse vnruly ? Where hathe there at any time either the Common Wealth , or the Churche benne in more quiet ? Perhaps , ye wil saie , from the firste beginning of this Doctrine , the Common sorte euerywhere beganne to rage , and to rise throughout Germanie . Allow it were so : yet Martine Luther , the publisher , and setter forewarde of this Doctrine , didde write marueilous vehemently and sharpely againste them , and reclaimed them home to peace , and obedience .

M. Hardinge .

Your impudencie of lieinge hathe no measure nor ende . But we wil saie litle here , hauinge saide yenough already in reproufe of your falsehed . Ciuile Magistrate . We leaue you to the wide worlde , who seeth , and almoste feeleth your lies .

But I maruel not a litle , that in this place specially , where ye speake of the good order , that your Gospel breedeth , ye be not ashamed to make mention of Martin Luther . Good God howe mutche could we , if we were so disposed , alleage out of his seditious and Heretical bookes by him * * Vntruthe malicious , and sclaunderous . Reade the Answeare . writen against the Power of lawful magistrates ? In libro de Saeculari potestate . At this time let one place suffise for al Luthers wordes be these . Inter Christianos nullus neque potest , neque debet esse magistratus , sed &c. Amonge Christen men none can nor ought to be a magistrate , but eche one is to other equally subiecte : After the Apostles saieinge , Luther admitteth no ciuil Magistrate . Thinkinge al others better then your selues , &c. Againe , Be ye humble al one to an other . Whereto Christe accordeth when he saithe , When thou arte called to the mariage feaste , goe , and sitte downe lowest of al. Amonge Christen men , none is superiour saue one , and onely Christe . And what superioritie or magistrate can be there , where al be equal , and haue right , power , riches , and honour al alike ? Furthermore , none coueteth to be ouer other , but al wil be vnder one another . Where sutche men be , though one woulde , yet can he not make a magistrare to beare rule ouer others , sithe that nature suffereth not to haue superiours , where no man wil , nor may be a superiour . And where sutche kinde of men is , there be they not Christen men , after the true sorte of Christen men . This farre Martin Luther .

He persuaded them to peace , when there was scarsly any lefte , that coulde beare a clubbe . Firste he ‡ ‡ Nothinge els , but mere Vntruthe . For Luther called him the preacher of Satan . stirred vp his Disciple , Thomas Munzer in Thuringia , who was the rebelles preacher . After that he excused him of seditious preachinge to the Duke of Saxonie Prince Electour , trusting , if Munzer were let alone , the matter should wel goe forewarde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

To dissemble the reste of your Vntruthes , and your immoderate and vnciuile bitternesse , M. Hardinge , procedinge from the vnquiet , and vnsauery humoures of your harte : where ye saie , Doctor Luther admitteth no Ciuile Magistrate , & note the same so specially in your margine , I marueile mutche , that your paper blusshed not in your behalfe . Reade his Bookes throughout , and consider the quiet gouernement , bothe of the Common Wealthes , and also of the Churches of Germanie : and ye shal finde , that noman euer , neither by woorde , nor by example more auaunced the Authoritie of the Ciuile Magistrate . To leaue al other his notable Sentences to this pourpose , againste the Rebelles , of whom ye speake , beinge then in the fielde againste theire Lordes , he wrote thus : God commaundeth al menne vniuersally to obeie the Magistrate with feare , Iohan. Sleidanus Lib. 5. and reuerence , &c. Againe , Ye take the Swerde , and withstande the Magistrate , whom God hath appointed . Is not this rashly to abuse the Name of God ?

But he saithe , Emonge Christians neither maie be , nor ought to be any Magistrate . O M. Hardinge , nothinge coulde haue founde faulte herewith , but onely intemperate , and mere malice . For Luther speaketh not these woordes of the outwarde Ciuile Gouernement , but onely of our Inwarde Bande , and Obedience towardes God . And in this respecte , there is no Kinge , or Prince in déede , nor maie be any . In this sense S. Paule saithe , There is no lewe , there is no Gentile : There is no Lorde , Galat. 3. there is no Seruaunte : There is no Man , there is no Wooman : Coloss. 3. For al you are one in Christe Jesu . S. Paule denieth not , but Iewe , Gentile , Lorde , Seruaunte , Man , and Wooman , remaine stil in theire seueral states , and kindes , as they were before . But in Christe Iesu , he saithe , there is no regarde of any sutche difference . In Ciuile Gouernmente a Kinge is a Kinge , and so hath God commaunded him to be knowen . But after that wée be once comme to the reuerence , and obedience of Goddes wil , there God onely is the Kinge : & the Kinge , be he neuer so mighty , is but a Subiecte . So saith S. Ambrose to the Emperoure Valenti●●ian , Noli te extollere , Ambros. Lib. 5. Epist. 33. Imperator : Sed , si vis diutiùs Imperare , esto Deo subditus . Scriptum est , Ciuile Magistrate . Quae Dei , Deo : quae Caesaris . Caesari : O my Lorde , auance not your selfe : But if ye wil remaine long in Empiere , be subiecte vnto God . It is written , Geeue to God , that belongeth to God : Geeue to Caesar , that belongeth to Caesar .

So saithe the Emperoure Valentinian the Elder of him selfe , Sozom. li. 6. ca. 7. Ego sum in sorte plebis : I am ( in this respecte ) as one of the people . To like pourpose Iulius Caesar , beinge an Heathen Prince , saide sommetime of him selfe at Rome in the Councel house , Dion Lib. 43. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Sozom. li. 5. ca. 16 Equidem ad alia omnia , quae pro vobis gerenda sunt , & Consul sum , & Dictator : quod autem ad iniuriam cuiquam faciendum attinet , sum priuatus : Touchinge al other affaires , that ought to be taken in hande for your sake , I am bothe your Consul , and your Dictator : But as touchinge any wronge to be donne to any man , I am as a priuate man , without office . So said the Heathen Renegate Iulianus the Emperour , Principes , vbi ad limen Delubri venerint , perinde sunt , atque Priuati : When the Princes , and Magistrates once comme within the entrie of the Temple , they are none other , but as Priuate Menne . And this is al that traiterous , and horrible Iudgement , that , as it pleaseth you to saie , Luther had of the Ciuile Magistrate .

Where ye saie , he sturred vp his Disciple Thomas Munzer in Thuringia , to be the preacher to the Rebelles , it is no strang mater , to sée your tonge to renne riot . Luther him selfe writinge thereof vnto the Rebelles , saithe thus , Satanas sub Euangelij praetextu , Iohan. Sleidanus Lib. 5. multos hoc tempore seditiosos , & planè sanguinarios Doctores excitauit : Satan vnder the pretense of the Gospel , hath sturred vp in these daies many seditious , and Bloudy Doctours : Meaninge thereby Munzer , and other like his companions .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 2.

But , whereas it is woonte sommetime to be obiected by personnes wantinge skil , touchinge the Heluetians chaunge of state , and killing of Leopoldus the Duke of Austria , and restoringe by force theire Countrie to libertie , al that was donne , as appeareth plainely by al Stories , for twoo hundred and threescore yeeres paste , or aboue , in the time of Pope Boniface the Eight , when the Authoritie of the Bishop of Rome was in greatest iolitie , aboute twoo hundred yeeres before Huldericus Zuinglius , either beganne to teache the Gospel , or yet was borne . And euer sithence that time , thei haue had al thinges stil and quite , not onely from foreine Enimies , but also from al ciuile dissension . And if it were a sinne in the Heluetians , to deliuer theire owne Countrie from foreine gouernement , specially when they were so proudely and tyrannously oppressed , yet to burthen vs with other mennes faultes , or them with the faultes of theire Forefathers , it is againste al right and reason .

M. Hardinge .

Nowe your sprite is not contente withe that ye haue railed already againste the Pope , and Holy Churche , but it moueth you againe to raue and crie out . But whether with more malice or reason , let vs indifferently consider .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 1.

But O immortal God , and wil the Bishoppe of Rome accuse vs of Treasone ? Wil he teache the People to obeie & folowe theire Magistrates ? Or hath he any regarde at al of the Maiestie of a Prince ? Why doothe hee then , as none of the olde Bishoppes of Rome euer didde , Augustin . Steuchus . suffer him selfe to bee called of his flatterers , Lord of Lordes , as though hee woulde haue al Kinges and Princes , whoe , and what so euer they be , to bee his vnderlinges ? Why doothe hee vaunte him selfe to bee Kinge of Kinges , Antonius de Rosellis . and to haue Kingely Roialtie ouer his Subiectes ? Why compelleth he al Emperours , and Princes to sweare to him fealtie , and true obedience ? Why dooth hee boaste , that the Emperours Maiestie is a thousandfolde inferioure to him : De Maior & Obedien. Solitae . De Maior . & obedien. Vnam Sanctam . in sexto . & that for this reason specially , bicause God hath made two lightes in Heauen : and bicause Heauen and Earth were created , not in twoo Beginninges , but in one ? Why hathe hee , and his felowes ( like Anabaptistes and Libertines , to the ende they might runne on more licenceously and carelessy ) shaken of the yoke , & exempted them selues from beinge vnder al Ciuil Power ? Why hathe hee his Legates ( asmutche to saie , as moste suttle spies ) lieinge in waite in al Kinges Courtes , Councelles , and Priuie chambers ? Why doothe he , when he liste , sette the Christian Princes one againste an other , and at his owne pleasure trouble the whole worlde with debate and discorde ? Why dooth hee Excommunicate , and commaunde to be taken as a Heathen and a Pagan , any Christian Prince , that renounceth his Authoritie ? and why promiseth he his Indulgences and his Pardons largely to any , that wil ( what waie so euer it be ) kil any of his enimies ? Doothe hee maintaine Empires , and Kingedomes ? Or doothe hee once desire , that common quiete shoulde bee prouided for ? You muste pardonne vs , good Reader , though wee seeme to vtter these thinges more bitterly and bitingly , then it becommeth Diuines to doo . For bothe the shamefulnesse of the matter , and also the desire of rule in the Bishoppe of Rome is so excedinge , and outrageous , that it coulde not wel be vttered with other woordes , or more mildely . Clemens . 5. In Concil. Viennen . Leo papa . 3. For he is not ashamed to saie in open assemblie , that al Iurisdiction of al Kinges dependeth of him selfe . And to feede his Ambition , and greedinesse of rule , hee hathe pulled in peeces the Empiere of Rome , and vexed and rent whole Christendome asunder : Falsely and traiterously also did he release the Romaines , the Italians , and him selfe too , of the othe , whereby thei , and hee were streitly bounde to bee true to the Emperour of Graecia , and stirred vp the same Emperoures Subiectes to forsake him : and callinge Carolus Magnus out of Fraunce into Italie , made him Emperour : sutche a thinge , Zacharias pp. as neuer was seene before . He put Chilpericus the Frenche Kinge , beinge no euil Prince , biside his Realme , onely bicause he fansied him not , & wrongefully placed Pipine in his roume . Againe , after he had cast out Kinge Philip , if he could haue brought it so to passe , he had determined and appointed the Kingedome of Fraunce to Albertus the King of Romaines . He vtterly destroied the state of the most florishinge Cittie , and Common Weale of Florence , his owne natiue Countrie , Clemens . ● . and brought it out of a free , & peaceable state , to be gouerned at the pleasure of one man : Idem Clemens . hee brought to passe by his procurement , that whole Sauoye on the one side was miserably spoiled by the Emperoure Charles the fifthe , and on the other side by the Frenche Kinge , so that the poore vnfortunate Duke had scante one Cittie leafte him , to hide his heade in .

M. Hardinge .

It is a greate eie sore to the Ministres of Antichriste , to see the Vicare of Christe aboue Lordes and Kinges of this worlde : to see Princes and Emperours promise and sweare obedience vnto him . But they that are the faithful subiectes of the Churche of God , thinke it no absurditie , that the Shepherd be set● , not onely aboue the Lambes and Ewes of the Churche , but also aboue the Wethers and Rammes them selues . It is a very greate folie for them to finde faulte with the superioritie of the Bishop of Rome , who can neuer proue , that he is not the Vicare of Christe . Matth. 16. If he were not his Vicare , yet beinge a Bishop he is aboue any temporal Prince ‡ ‡ So is euery Simple Prieste . concerninge his Priestly office . But sith Christe saide to Peter , Vpon this rocke I wil build my Churche , and hel gates shal not preuaile againste it , * * A litle witte had benne better , then al this so greate a doo . Barke vntil your bellies breake , ye that be the helhowndes of Luthers and Zuinglius litour , or rather of Sathans your and theire chiefe maister , shal not preuaile againste the Apostolike see of Peter . It hath withstanded al Diuels and Heretikes a thousande fiue hundred yeeres : and thinke ye that your selues be stronger then Arius ? It greeueth you , that the Pope is higher then the Emperour , not for any loue ye beare to the Emperour , nor for hatred that ye haue to the Popes person , whom ye knowe not : but your quarrel is againste Christe , whose person the Pope beareth . Or tel vs , I praie you , dooth he cal him selfe any Princes or Emperours vicegerent , and not rather the ‡ ‡ So he calleth him selfe : But when did Christ euer cal him so ? Vicare of Christe alone ? Whom impugne ye then but Christe in his Vicare ? Luke . 10. Haue ye not readen , qui vos spernit , me spernit : he that despiseth you , despiseth me ? Ye thought the Pope had no better text for his primacie and supreme auctoritie , them two lightes , which God made in Heauen . But if malice had not blinded you , in the very same chapter of Innocentius the thirde , ( from whence like a spider ye sucked that ye thought was worste ) ye might haue seene an other reason goinge before , Distin. 96. Duo . sunt . where he saide , Pontifex in Spiritualibus antecellit , quae tant● sunt temporalibus digniora , quant● anima praefertur corpori . The Bishop ( saide Innocentius ) in spiritual matters passeth ( the Emperour ) : whiche spiritual thinges are so mutche aboue the temporal , by howe mutche the soule is preferred before the bodie . Howe like ye that reason ? Within a litle after Innocentius bringeth forth an other proufe . Where it was saide to Ieremie the Prophete ▪ who came * * As if Hieremie had benne a Pope . of the Priestes race , Hierem. 1. and was a Prieste him selfe , ‡ ‡ A very profounde Reason . Reade the Answeare . behold I haue set thee ouer nations and Kingdomes , to the intente thou maiest pul vp and scater , and builde , and plante .

Then after that Innocentius had * * By Natural Reason . O Natural Folie . by natural reason and holy Scripture proued the highest Bishops superioritie aboue Princes , he commeth in the thirde place not nowe to proue , but to make his former saieinge already proued more plaine , by alludinge to that is written in the beginning of Genesis . Where Moyses declareth how God made two lightes in the Firmamente of the Heauen , a greater , and a lesser .

But this cannot sounde in the eares of our newe preachers . They woulde not haue the guide of heauenly thinges aboue the guide of earthly cares . They loue the Earth , the fleash , the worlde too wel , to be of that minde , and therefore do aske , why the Popes of Rome like Anabaptistes and Libertines haue shaken of the yoke , and exempted them selues from al ciuile power . What yoke meane ye ? The yoke of infidels and Paynimes ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée are not the Ministers of Antichriste , M. Hardinge , but the witnesses of the Truthe of Christe . He is Antichriste , as S. Paule sheweth you , that sitteth in the Temple of God , and auanceth him selfe aboue al that is called God . And , to speake more particularely of the mater , by S. Gregories Iudgement , he is Antichriste , Pope aboue Kinges and Emperours . or the Forerenner of Antichriste , that calleth him selfe , The Vniuersal Bishop : And vaunteth him selfe , as the King of Pride : And hath an Armie of Priestes prepared for him : And setteth him selfe , as Lucifer , aboue al his Brethren . Of him Cardinal Franciscus Zarabella saithe thus , Papa facit , quicquid libet , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 30. etiam illicita : & est plusquam Deus : The Pope doothe , what him listeth , yea though it be vnlawful : and is more then a God . This is Antichriste , M. Hardinge , Grego . Lib. 4. Epist. 38. by the Iudgemente of the wise , and godly : and the supporters of him , who so euer , Francis . Zarabel . and where so euer they be , are the Ministers of Antichriste .

It is greate Arrogancie , to auance a Bishop aboue a Kinge : Notwithstandinge in somme good meaninge it maie be true . So a Iudge , in knowledge of the Lawe : so a Doctoure of Physique , in his profession : so a Pilote , in knowledge of the Sea , and guidinge of a shippe : so a Captaine , in Martial affaires is aboue any Kinge : And it behoueth a Kinge , be he neuer so wise , or Mighty , in euery of these seueral faculties , to be guided by them . And thus is the Kinge inferioure , not onely to a Bishop , as you saie , but also to euery Inferiour Prieste .

So S. Chrysostome saith of Christes Apostles : Chrys. in Psal. 44 Omnem Terrarum Orbem peruaserunt , & omnibus principibus fuerunt magis propriè Principes , Regibus potentiores : The Apostles roaued ouer the whole worlde , and were more Princelike in deede , then the Princes them selues , and more puissante , and mighty , then the Kinges .

So saide the Emperoure Valentinian vnto the people of Millaine , Theodoretus , Lib. 4. Cap. 5. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Eum collocate in Pontificali Solio , cui nos quoque Moderatores Imperij , nostra Capita submittamus : Place ye sutche a man in the Bishoppes Chaire , vnto whom wee our selues , that goueine the Empiere , maie stoope our Heade .

For the Prince is bounde to the Obedience of Goddes Woorde , no lesse , then if he were a priuate Subiecte . And if he refuse to heare , and to reuerence the same , as the declaration of Goddes Holy Wil , he is accursed . But what is this , M. Hardinge , to your pourpose ? Woulde you therefore that the Kinge shoulde sweare his Obedience vnto the Bishop ?

In this respecte , by your owne Learninge , any Simple Prieste maie wel be aboue the Pope . So saithe your owne Doctoure Panormitane , Papa tenetur Confiteri : & in eo actu Sacerdos est Maior illo : The Pope is bounde to Confesse him selfe : And in that acte of Confession , Extra . De Poeniten . & remiss . Omnis vtriusque Abbas . the Prieste is aboue him . And againe , Papa non potest cogere Sacerdotem , vt reuelet Confessionem : quia in illo actu Sacerdos est Maior , quàm Papa : The Pope cannot compel a Prieste , to open that hath benne saide vnto him in Confession . For in that Acte , the Prieste is greater then the Pope . Yet , I trowe , yée woulde not therefore , the Pope shoulde sweare Obedience to a Prieste .

This therefore , M. Hardinge , it is , that gréeueth vs , to sée the poore Stoole of Humilitie , whereon S. Peter sate , blowen vp nowe into a Mounte of Pride : and the Pope to require Homage , and Fealtie of Kinges , and Emperours , as of his Subiectes . It gréeueth vs to sée you , and others your felowes , in respecte of the Pope , so mutche , not onely to abase , but also vilely to abuse the Maiestie of them , vnto whom Christe , and his Apostles were alwaies obediente . Remember , what one of yours hath written , and published to the worlde in this behalfe . Stanislaus Orichonius saithe thus , Stanislaus Orichonius in Chimera , Fol. 97. Tantùm Sacerdos praestat Regi , quantùm homo praestat bestiae : Quantùm Deus praestat Sacerdoti , tantùm Sacerdos praestat Regi . Qui Regem anteponit Sacerdoti , is anteponit Creaturam Creatori : A Prieste is so mutche aboue a Kinge , as a Man is aboue a Beaste : As mutche as God is better then the Prieste , so mutche is the Prieste better , then a Kinge . He that setteth the Kinge before a Prieste , setteth the Creature before the Creatoure .

It gréeueth vs , Pope aboue Kinges and Emperours . to sée S. Gregories woordes , by S. Gregories Successours , so proudely broken . For thus he wrote , welneare a thousande yéeres sithence , vnto the Emperoure Mauritius , againste Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople , claiminge then the same Vniuersal Authoritie , that is nowe vsurped by the Pope : Gregor. Li. 4. Epist. 32. Ille coercendes est , qui Sanctae Vniuersali Ecclesiae iniuriam facit : qui corde tumet : qui gaudere de Nomine Singularitatis appetit : qui Honori quoque Imperij vestri se per priuatum vocabulum superponit : Your Maiestie muste represse him , that do the this wronge vnto the Holy Vniuersal Churche : that swelleth in harte : that desireth to enioie a Name of Singularitie : that also , by a priuate Title , ( callinge him selfe the Vniuersal Bishop ) placeth him selfe ouer and aboue the Honoure of your Empiere .

Touchinge the knowledge of Goddes woorde , and cases of Religion , certaine it is , the Kinge is inferiour to a Bishop . But if the Bishop be negligente , and doo not his office : or , if he be wilful , and doo it not rightly : or , if he be ignorante , and cannot doo it : Then is the Bishop vnder the Prince , Subiecte to his checke , and by him maie be pounished . So writeth the Emperoure Constantinus vnto the people of Nicomedia : Theodoretus , Lib. 1. Cap. 19. Si quis Episcoporum in consultè tumultuatus sit , Ministri Dei , hoc est , mea executione , illius audacia coercebitur : If any Bishop vnaduisedly woorke trouble , his boldenesse shal be repressed by the Order of Goddes Minister , that is to saie , Roma. 13. by my execution . Therefore S. Paule saithe , Let euery soule be Subiecte to the Higher Powers . Whereunto S. Chrysostome addeth these woordes : Etiamsi Apostolus sis , Chrysost. ad Roman . Homil. 23. etiamsi Euangelista , etiamsi Propheta , siue quisquis tandem fueris . Neque enim Pietatem subuertit ista subiectio : Although thou be an Apostle , although thou be an Euangeliste , although thou be a Prophete , or what one so euer thou be ( yet be thou Subiecte to the Higher Powers ) . For Godlinesse is not hindered by sutche subiection .

Your quarrel , ye saie , is againste Christe : For his personne the Pope beareth . Haue ye not readen , He that despiseth you , despiseth me ? Tel vs , I praie you , saie you , doothe the Pope cal him selfe any Princes or Emperours Vicegerent , and not rather the Vicare of Christe alone ?

It forceth not greately , by what title the Pope liste to claime . He cannot lightly wante Authoritie , while he maie penne his owne Commission . I trows , wee maie saie of him , as Cicero saide sommetime of one in Rome , Asinius Senator Voluntarius , Lectus ipse àse : Asinius is a very willinge Senatour , him selfe appointed and chosen by him selfe . 2. Thess. 2. Verily , Antichriste shal sit in the Temple of God , euen in the place of Christe , and beare him selfe as Christes Vicare .

Howe be it , Let the Pope doo the duetie of a Bishop : Let him Exhorte : Let him Preache : Let him dispense Goddes Mysteries : Let him fulfil his Office : Let him doo the parte of an Euangeliste : And wée wil loue him , and reuerence him , although not , as Christes Vicare General , yet at leaste , as a Bishop . Otherwise wee muste saie vnto him , as S. Gregorie saide sommetime to Cyriacus the Bishop of Constantinople , Gregor. Lib. 6. Epist. 28. Omnes Magnos esse , & Honorabiles cupio , quorum tamen Honor Honori Omnipotentis Dei non detrahat . Nam quisquis se contra Deum Honorari appetit , mihi Honorabilis non est : I wishe that al menne shoulde be greate , and honorable : so that theire honoure be not preiudicial to the honoure of Almighty God . For who so euer shal desire him selfe to be honoured againste God , shal not be honourable vnto mee .

One highe & woorthy Reason wée alleged out of your Pope Innocentius the thirde : The Sonne is higher , and greater , then the Moone : Ergo , the Pope is higher , De Maior . & Obedien. Solita . Carion . in Inno●en . 3. and greater , then the Emperoure . This Pope Innocentius is he , that saide , Either he would lose his Miter , or els he would pul the Emperoure Philips Emperial Crowne from his Heade .

Malice . ye saie , Pope aboue Kinges and Emperours . blinded vs : otherwise wee might haue seene other his more substantial , and better Reasons . So were it néedeful , M. Hardinge : for certainely this Reason is very simple . But the beste of his Reasons , ye can finde , is this :

The Soule is aboue the Body , Ergo , The Pope is aboue the Emperoure .

And howe like ye this Reason ? saie you . Uerily , as a Reason without sense , or Reason : sutche as be many of your makinge . By the like Reason you maie saie ,

The Cooke is alwaies aboute the Fire : The Fire is the highest of al Elementes : Ergo , of al Sciences the Cookes occupation is the highest .

By the same Reason ye maie proue , that the highest Emperoure is Subiects , not onely to the Pope , but also to euery simple Prieste . Yea further , of the same Reason there muste néedes folowe a greate inconuenience : That the Pope him selfe , for as mutche as he Ministreth Sacramentes , Teacheth , Exhorteth , and occupieth him selfe in Spiritual affaires leaste of al others , is therefore the lowest , and baseste of al his cleregie .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , I beseeche you , consider the weight , and drifte of your owne Reason .

The Popes Charge is Spiritual , saie you .

Ergo , the Emperoure is bounde to sv veare obedience to the Pope . By what Reason maie this Reason be proued ? Uerily by the same good Reason ye maie saie , Euery Priestes Charge is Spiritual :

Ergo , the kinge is bounde to sweare obedience to euery Prieste . Yet by sutche proper Reasons the Pope hath auanced him selfe aboue al the states , and Princes of the Worlde .

But your Holy Father Innocentius , leste he shoulde séeme to wante Scriptures , for proufe hereof allegeth also the woordes of God , spoken vnto the Prophete Hieremie : Hierem. 1. Beholde I haue set thee ouer Nations , and Kingedomes , to the intente , that thou maiste pulle vp , and scatter , and builde , and plante . Ergo , saithe he , the Emperoure is Subiecte vnto the Pope . These proufes , ye saye , Our Defenders coulde not find . Further , ye saie , in your sober manner , When wil you forsake the Schole of Lieing ? Truely if there be any sutch Schole , M. Hardinge , you maie claime of good right to be the Maister . Wée are as far from lieinge , as you are from saieing the Truthe .

But what make these woordes of Hieremie for the Bishop of Rome ? Wil ye saie , that the Prophete Hieremie was the Pope ? Or , that the Kinge then was sworne to be subiecte , and loial vnto him ? What Kinge , or Prince did Hieremie subdue ? What People or Countrie euer did he ouerthrowe ? One of your owne Doctours saithe , Heruaeus de Potesta . Papa , ca. 13 Hieremias nullum Regem deposuit . Sed intelligitur positus supra Centes , & Regna , quasi habens Authoritatem super ea in annuntiando , & praedicando Vera. Non de destructione Regum Mundi , sed de destructione Vitiorum , & plantatione Fidei , & morum . 1. Cor. 3. Vt illud Pauli , Dei aedificatio estis : Dei Agricultura estis : Hieremie deposed no Kinge . But wee vnderstande , that he was placed ouer Nations , and Kingedomes , as hauinge Authoritie ouer the same , in openinge , and preachinge of the Truthe . He speaketh non of the ouerthrowinge of the Kingedomes of the World , but of the ouerthrowinge of vices , and of the planting of Faith , and manners . In this sense S. Paule saith to the Corinthians , Ye are Goddes buildinge : Ye are Goddes tillage .

The very Glose it selfe saithe , Vt euellas Regnum Satanae : vt plantes bona : vt aedifices Ecclesiam : I haue placed thee , to roote vp ( not the Kingedomes of the worlde , nor the states of Common Weales , but ) the Kingedome of Satan : to plante good thinges : to builde vp the Churche . His whole Commission was limited with these woordes , Posui Verbum meum in Ore tuo : Hierem. 1. I haue put my Woorde in thy Mouthe .

Sutche Authoritie had Elias ouer Kinge Achab. And therefore he saide vnto him , Pope aboue Kinges and Emperours . It is not I , that trouble Israel , but thou , and thy Fathers house . Sutche Authoritie had Iohn the Baptiste ouer Kinge Herode : and therefore he saide vnto him , It is not lawful for thee , to haue thy Brothers Wife .

If it be true , 3. Reg. 18. that ye woulde seeme to saie , that the Popes Superioritie standet onely in thinges Spiritual , wherefore then doothe Pope Nicolas saie , Christus Beato Petro Terreni simul , Dist. 22. Mediolanensis . & Coelestis Imperij Iura commisit ? Christe bath geuen to Blessed Peter , the Right as wel of the worldly , as also of the Heauenly Empiere . Wherefore then did Pope Adrian thus write vnto the Emperoure Fredericus : Romae nostra Sedes est : Auentinus in Adrian . 4. Anno. 1154. Imperatoris est A quis in Arduenna , quae est Sylua Galliae . Imperator quod habet , totum habet à nobis . Sicut Zacharias transtulit Imperium à Graecis ad Teutonicos , ita nos possumus illud transferre ab Alemannis ad Graecos . Ecce in potestare nostra est , vt demus illud , cui volumus . proptereà constituti sumus à Deo super Gentes , & Regna , vt destruamus , & euellamus , & aedificemus , & plantemus : My Seate is in the Cittie of Rome : The Emperours Seate is at Acon in Ardenne , whiche is a Foreste in Fraunce . What so euer the Emperoure hath , he hath it of vs . As Pope Zacharias translated the Empiere from Graecia into Germanie , so maie wee againe translate the same from the Germaines to the Greekes . Behold , it is in our power , to bestowe the Empiere vpon who wee liste . Therefore are wee appointed by God ouer Nations , and Kingdomes , to pulle downe , to roote vp , to builde , and to plante againe . This Authoritie , I trowe , reacheth sommewhat further , then onely to causes Spiritual . One of your own Doctours saith , Heruaeus de Potesta . Papae . ca. 12 Magis esset acceptum Deo , quòd per Solum pontificem Mundus in Omnibus regeretur : It were more acceptable vnto God , that the worlde in Al Maters ( both Spiritual , and Temporal ) were gouerned onely by the Pope .

That Innocentius addeth , of the Sonne and the Moone , yée saye , is not a Reason , but a Similitude . This thinge maie easily be graunted . For in déede it is a Similitude vtterly voide of either Witte , or Reason . But who taught the Pope , so childishly to plaie with Similitudes , thereby to auance him selfe , and to abase the Empiere of the world ? Who tolde him , that the Pope is the Sonne , and the Emperoure the Moone ? Or , that the Emperoure is so far inferioure to the Pope , as the Moone is inferiour to the Sonne ? Isidorus , that liued sixe hundred yéeres before Pope Innocentius , In Glossa in Gene. Cap. 1. Heruaeus de Potesta Papae . ca. 13. saithe quite contrarie , Per Solem intelligitur Regnum , & per Lunam intelligitur Sacerdotium : By the Sonne wee vnderstande the Kingdome : and by the Moone we vnderstande the Priesthoode : Whereby he geueth vs to consider , contrarie to the Iudgemente of your good Father Pope Innocentius , that , as the Moone is inferioure to the Sonne , so is the Pope inferioure to the Emperoure .

M. Hardinge .

But when Constantine was Baptized , he gaue place to * * Vntruth , fond , and peeuishe . For Syluester was deade long before Constantinus was Christened . S. Syluester then Bishop of Rome , and to al other Successours of S. Peter . O how that irketh your haries , that so great an Emperour , and the first that openly professed Christianitie , shoulde by the same Holy Ghoste , who called him to the Faithe of Christe , be made to ‡ ‡ Vntruthe too vaine for a Childe . Why should M. Har. be so vaine ? There is not one true worde in al this talc . departe from the Cittie , whiche ruled the worlde , and to yelde his owne Palaice partly a Churche to our Sauiour Christe , partely a dwellinge house for the Bishops of Rome ? Aske of Constantine , why he submitted his necke to S. Syluester . We haue cause to thinke , that Constantius the heretike , sonne of Constantine , was not very glad of his Fathers dooinge . And yet God suffered him not to retourne and dwel at Rome but to leaue that Cittie free to the Rulers of the Churche .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Constantine , ye saie , gaue ouer the Cittie of Rome , and al the Weaste parte of the Empiere to the Pope , and to his Successours for euer . And this thing erye saie , The Donation of Constantine . yrketh our hartes ful soare . Yea verily , M. Hardinge , it irketh vs mutche in your behalfe , to sée you , a man of wisedome , and Learninge , to warrante sutche folies without blusshinge . This whole Donation of Constantine , wherevpon ye builde the Popes whole Kingdome , hath not shewe sufficient to mocke a childe . The effecte , & sense thereof is this , that Constantinus the Emperoure , the thirde daie after he was Christened , in the honoure of S. Peter , willingly leafte al the Weaste parte of the Empiere , and departed to Byzantium , which is nowe called Constantinople . to dwel in the Easte : & that he gaue the whole Emperial , and Ciuile Dominion , not onely of the Cittie of Rome , but also of Italie , France , Spaine , Arragone , Portugal , Englande , Germanie , Scotlande , Irelande , Pole , Denmarke , Sueden , and Hungarie , to the Pope . This doubtelesse , being true , had ben a toily liberal , Heruaeus de Potesta . Papae , ca. 19. and a Princely gifte . And one of your frendes saithe , Volunt aliqui , quòd ratione huius Doni , Summus Pontifex Imperator est : & quòd potest instituere , & destituere Reges , sicut Imperator : Somme saie , that by meane of this gifte , the Pope is an Emperoure , and maie set vp , and pulle downe Kinges , as an Emperoure .

But Pius Secundus , beinge him selfe afterwarde Bishop of Rome , saithe , Dicta Palea , Constantinus , falsa est : The saide Decree ( named Constantinus , conteining Constantine the Emperours Donation , Pius in Dialog. Fol. 21. or Chartar ) is vtterly false . So saith . Antoninus the Archebishop of Florence , Valla , Volaterrane , Hieronymus Cathalanus , Otho Frisingensis , and others moe . Of this Fable wee shal haue occasion to speake hereafter .

Constantius the Heretique , sonne vnto Constantinus , as you saie , mutche misliked his Fathers dooinge . Nai , M. Hardinge , if Constantius were aliue , he would rather finde faulte in your discretion , that reporte sutche Folies of his Fathers dooinges . Where ye saie , God suffered him not to returne , and to dwel in Rome , it palleth the déepthe of your Diuinitie , to searche vp the causes , and secretes of Goddes sufferance . Althoughe Constantius , beinge encumbred with dangerous warres , & greate affaires , were forced to staie in other Countries , and could not haue leasure to returne to Rome , yet he stil continued the Lorde of Rome , as also did a greate number of other Emperours , that folowed after him . Therefore Pope Bonifacius thus wrote vnto the Emperoure Honorius : Dist. 97. Ecclesia . Roma est Vrbs vestrae mansuetudinis : Rome is your Maiesties Cittie . Likewise Pope Agatho writeth vnto the Emperoure Constantinus : In sexta Synodo Constan . Act. 4. In eadem Synodo Actione 1. Haec est Vrbs Seruilis Maiestatis vestrae : This is your Maiesties bonde Cittie : And Constantinus the Emperour him selfe saithe , Dono Archiepiscopo Antiquae nostrae Romae : To Donus the Arche bishop of our Cittie of Olde Rome .

But what néede moe woordes ? The case is so cleare , ● that no man of learninge can cal it in question .

Briefely , touchinge this fonde Fable of Constantines Donation , Cardinal Cusanus saithe thus , Nicol. Cusanus de Donatione Constantini . Donationem diligenter expendens , reperi in ipsamet Scriptura manifesta argumenta Confictionis , & Falsitatis : Diligently weighinge this Donation of Constantine , I haue founde in the very penninge thereof manifeste argumentes of for ginge and falshedde . These , M. Hardinge , be the Recordes , and Presidentes of moste certaine , and most ancient memorie , that ye would haue publisshed vnto the world . By sutche Monumentes your Pope claimeth the right , and possession of the Empiere . And your frendes marueile , that ye can defende sutche falshedde , and forgerie , so wel knowen , and so manifeste , for very shame .

M. Hardinge .

The Being of the Popes Legates and Ambassadours in Princes Courtes , is a thing nolesse conuenient , then it is meete for him , that hath cure of many flockes of Shepe , to set his seruauntes , as watchmen in euery part , where sutcheflockes do feede .

The B. of Sarisburie .

In what stéede these Legates stande the Churche of God , Legates . Pardonnes . it maie appeare by these fewe vttered thereof by Camotensis : Citatur ab Agrippa de vanita . Scientiar . Nicol. Machiauel . in Historia . Legati Papae ita debacchantur in Prouincijs , acsi , ad flagellandum Ecclesiam , Satan egressus esset à facie Domini : The Popes Legates doo so rage in al Countries , as if Satan were gonne oute before the face of god , to scourge the Churche . And Machiauel saithe , There haue benne fewe warres , or Commotions enflamed these many late yéeres , but by the meane , and whisperinge of these Legates . What other Doctrine they teache , or what other good they doo , it were harde to saie . And therefore the Fathers in the Councel of Aphrica refused vtterly , to haue any sutche Legates sente emongest them : For thus they write vnto the Pope , Concil. Aphrica . Cap. 105. Vt aliqui , tanquam à tuae Sanctitatis latere , mittantur , nulla inuenimus Patrum Synodo constitutum : That any Legates shoulde be sente vnto vs , as from your holinesse side , we finde it not appointed by any Councel of our Fathers . Againe they saie , Executores Clericos Vestros quibusque Pontentibus nolite mittere : ne fumosum se●culi typhum in Ecclesiam Christi videamur inducere : Send not your Clerkes ( or Cardinalles ) to put maters in execution , to any Noble man , or Mighty Prince : Leste wee seeme to bringe the smoky pride of the worlde into the Churche of Christe .

M. Hardinge .

* * Vntruthe . For they depende of the deceitfulnesse of man : & not of the power of God . His indulgences and pardons depend vpon the power of bindinge and loosinge , whiche Christe gaue to Peter and his successours . Matth. 16. Ye muste demaunde of Christe , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Christe neuer gaue the Pope power to deale Pardonnes . why he gaue that Power , and not be angry with his vicare for vsinge the same .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O M. Hardinge , what shoulde you meane with al these Uanities ? Are ye so fully bente , to graunte no kinde of erroure , neither in your Purgatories , nor in your Pardons , nor in your Stewes ? God geue you Humilitie of harte : leste ye be an vnfitte vessel to receiue Goddes Pardonne .

M. Hardinge .

Ye finde faulte with Leo the thirde for makinge an Emperour in the West . I dare saie it greueth you . * * Vntruthe , ioined with open folie . For this was the onely waie to strengthen the Saracenes . For if there had benne none in the West , the Turke might haue ben our Emperour er this , and to his Barbarous and wicked tyrannie might haue subdued this parte of the worlde , specially Germanie , as he hath subdued Grece , Asia , Egypte , Syria , and al the Easte Churche . Against whiche mischefe the Vicare of Christe by his maisters merciful warninge with the Princes of the West made prouision ▪ and at the length planted the Empire in this order , we see it nowe in .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This policie , practised by the Pope , loosed the whole power of Christendome . For as the Empiere before , beinge vnited , and ioined in one , was stronge , and mighty , so beinge afterwarde diuided into twoo , and the Easte parte beinge sundred for the Weaste , it became lame , and weake , and not hable to healpe it selfe . By meane whereof a gate was opened , to receiue the Turke into al these Christian Dominions , whiche nowe he holdeth , without resistance : who otherwise , the Empiere beinge one , and whole in it selfe , as it was before , coulde neuer haue growen to sutche Power . Al this was wrought by the Practise , and Policie of the Pope .

Notwithstandinge , the Pope him selfe by this bargaine loste nothinge . Thereof Marsilius Patauinus writeth thus : Marsilius Pataninus . Pipinus , Sonne vnto Charles the Frenche Kinge , after he had conquered Aristulphus the Kinge of Lumbardie , tooke Rauenna , and al the fiue Citties of Romandiola , togeather with the Emperours Lieutenantes Territorie called Exarchatus , and gaue al the same to the Pope . Pope Steuin findinge him selfe wel contented with these benefites , and séeinge the weakenesse of the Greeke Emperoure , procured , that the Empiere should be translated from the Greekes vnto the Frenche , hauinge vtterly forgotten the benefites , The very true cause of the ●●uision of the Empiere . Platyna in Leone . 3. that he had receiued of the Emperoure : to the intente , that the Greekes beinge vtterly oppressed , and the Frenche litle caringe for these thinges , he alone might rule in Italie at his pleasure .

Touchinge Pope Leo the thirde , whose Prouidence , & Policie ye so mutche commende , the true reporte of the Storie is this : The saide Leo beinge by violence depriued of his Bishoprike in Rome , fledde for aide to Charles the Frenche Kinge , and by him was restoared . In consideration of whiche benefite , he proclaimed Charles the Emperoure of the Weaste . Sithence whiche time , the Empiere of Christendome hath benne diuided , and weakened : the Pope enriched : and the Saracenes , and Turkes aboue al measure encreased .

M. Hardinge .

If the Pope Zacharias deposed Childerike ( for so I finde him more commonly named ) the Kinge of Fraunce , onely vpon his owne pleasure or displeasure , as ye saie , and placed Pipine for him , can ye tell that storie , and not see what a strength of auctoritie is in that See , whiche is able with a woorde to place and displace the mightiest Kinge in Europe ? With a woorde I saie , For I am sure ye can shewe vs of no Armie , that he sente to execute that his will . Is that the power of a man , trowe ye , to appointe Kingedomes ? Can the Deuill him selfe at his pleasure set vp and depose Kinges ? No surely . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For S. Gregorie saithe , Antichristus ipsas summas huius Saeculi potestates obtinebit . And muche lesse can any member of his doo the same . Remember ye what Christe saide , when the Iewes obiected , that he did caste out Deuils in the name of the Prince of Deuils ? * * A newe Sinne against the Holy Ghoste . Beware ye Sinne not against the Holy Ghoste , who confesse that the Pope hath pulled downe and set vp Kinges . Whiche thinge vndoubtedly he coulde not do profitably and peaceably , but by the greate Power of God . And yet did that line of Pipine and Charles the greate , whiche the Pope did set vp , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , easy to be seene . Reade the Answeare . florishe aboue any other stocke , that ye can name sence the inclination of the Romaine Empire . Whiche in that transposed state of greate a Kingedome , maketh no obscure argument of Heauenly approbation and Diuine prouidence .

Neither did the Pope Zacharias depose Childerike , because he fansied him not , as ye slaunder , but onely consented to loose his Subiectes from bonde of othe made to him , at the generall and moste earnest request and sute of all the Nobilitie , and Communaltie of the whole Realme of Fraunce , findinge him very vnprofitable , and vnmeete for the Kingedome , as one , who beinge of no witte , and therefore commonly named Stupidus , as muche to saie , a dolte , was altogeather besides like a Sardanapalus , geuen wholly to belly chere , and to filthy loue of Women . Therefore in your owne woordes ye confesse a * * A Diuine Power in the Pope . Diuine power in the Pope , as by whome Cod directeth the willes of faithfull Princes on the Earthe . The more suche examples ye bringe , the woorse ye make your cause . I woulde ●yer you to ease me of the labour of prouinge suche a notable facte .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Pope Zacharias deposed Childericus , as you calle him , or , as somme other cal him , Chilpericus , the Frenche Kinge . Therefore ye saie , wée muste néedes acknowlege a Diuine Power in the Pope : seinge him hable , by his woorde , to place , and displace the mightiest Kinge in Europe . For can the Diuel , saie you , at his pleasure sette vp , and depose Kinges ?

Verily , Iohn . 12. 14. 16. M. Harding , Christe him selfe calleth the Diuel the Prince of this worlde : & therefore woe maie imagine , he maie doo somewhat in the worlde . And the Diuel , if ye wi●beleeue his woorde , when he had sette Christe on highe vpon a Mounte , & shewed him al the Kingedomes of the worlde , Depofinge of Kinge he saide vnto him , Al these thinges wil I geue thee , Matthae . 4. if thou wilte falle downe , and woorship me . This is that power , that S. Iohn saithe , Apocalyp. 17. shoulde be geuen to Antichriste : Reges terrae vires , & potestatem suam tradent Bestiac : &c. vt consentiant , dentque Regnum suum Bestiae , donec compleantur Verba Dei : The Kinges of the Barthe shal geue their strength , and power vnto the Beaste , &c. that they maie agree togeather , and geue theire Kingedome vnto the Beaste , vntil the Woordes of God be fulfilled . In eodem Cap. Againe he saithe , Mulier ea , quam vidisti , est vrbs illa Magna , quae habet Regnum super Reges terrae : The Woman , that thou sawest , is that Greate Cittie , that hath a Kingedome ouer the Kinges of the Worlde . And againe he saith , Apocalyp. 13. Data est illi Potestas in omnem Tribum , & Gentem : & adorabunt eam ( Bestiam ) omnes incolae terrae , quorum nomina non sunt scripta in Libro Vitae Agni : Power is geuen vnto that Beaste ouer euery Tribe , and Language , and Nation : and al the dwellers of the Earth shal woorship the same Beaste , ( whiche is Antichriste ) whose names be not written in the Lambes Booke of Life .

S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . in Psalm . 9. Quia Antichristus ad tantum culmen inanis gloriae venturus creditur , tanta ei licebit facere , & in omnes homines , & in Sanctos Dei , vt nonnulli infirmi arbitrentur , Deum res humanas negligere : For that wee beleue , that Antichriste shal comme vnto sutche a higth of vaine Glorie , it shal be lawful for him to doo sutche thinges , bothe towardes al menne ( Princes , and others ) and also towardes the Sainctes of God , that many weake menne shal thinke , God hath foresaken the care of the worlde .

Againe he saithe , August . in eundem . Psalm. Ita traditur de Antichristo , quod omnes Reges superaturus sit , & solus Regnum obtenturus : Thus it is written of Antichriste , that he shal conquere al Kinges , and obteine the Kingedome him selfe alone .

So saith S. Gregorie , Gregor. in Iob. Ca. 41. Lib. 33. Ca. 22. Antichristus veniens ipsas etiam summas huius Saeculi Potestates obtinebit : Antichriste , when he shal comme , shal conquere the highest Estates , and Powers of this worlde .

And al this shal comme to passe , as Chrysostome saithe , by the Dissolution of the Empiere , whereof wee haue spoken before . These be his woordes , Donec Imprij illius timor fuerit , Chrysostom . In. 2. Thessaloni . 2. Homil. 4. nemo Antichristo statim subdetur . Quando verò istud Imperium destructum fuerit , vacantem Imperij Principatum inuadet , & tentabit ad se rapere & hominum , & Dei Imperium : As longe as the Empiere shal be had in awe , noman shal streightwaie submitte him selfe to Antichriste : But after that the Empiere shal be dissolued , Antichriste shal inuade the state of the Empiere standinge voide : and shal laboure to pulle vnto him selfe the Empiere bothe of Man , and God .

This , Clemen . Lib. 2. De Appellationib . Pastoralis . Distin. 22. Omnes I trowe , it is , that the Pope proclaimeth him selfe the Heire Apparente of al Kingedomes : This it is , that Pope Nicolas saithe , Christus Beato Petro , Aeternae vitae Clauigero , Terreni simul , & Coelestis imperij iura commisit : Christe hath committed vnto Blessed Peter , the Keiebearer of Euerlastinge life , the righte bothe of the worldly , and also of the Heauenly Empiere : This is it , that somme are so bolde to saie , In Sexto . Li. 3. Ti. 16. De Statu Regularium . Antonius de Rosellis . Auentinus in Adriano . 4. Papa totius Mundi obtinet Principatum : The Pope hath the Princehoode of al the whole Worlde : And that somme others haue saide , Papa est Rex Regum , & Dominus Dominantium : The Pope is Kinge of Kinges , and Lorde of Lordes : And that Pope Adrian saithe of him selfe , as it is alleged before , Imperator , quod habet , totum habet à nobis . Ecce in potestate nostra est , vt demus Imperium , cui volumus : What so euer the Emperoure hath , he hath it of vs . It is in our power to bestowe the Empiere vpon whom wee liste . This , M. Hardinge , is that Diuine Power , that , as you saie , is geuen to the Pope . But as S. Iohn , S. Augustine , S. Chrysostome , and S. Gregorie saie , the selfe same Diuine Power is geuen also to Antichriste . And therefore it is wel noted in your owne Glose , Papa stupor Mundi : Clemen . in Pro●mi . In Glossa . The Pope is the woondermente of the Worlde : that is to saie , the Pope maketh al the worlde Fooles .

But if it séeme so greate a mater , for a Pope to depose a Kinge , I doubte not , but ye maie wel remember , that Emperours sommetimes haue deposed Popes . The Emperoure Constantius ( an Arian , Platyna in Liberio . I graunte , but yet an Emperoure ) deposed Pope Liberius : and afterwarde , restoringe Liberius , deposed Pope Foelix . The Emperoure Otho the firste deposed Pope Iohn . 13. The Emperoure Iustinian deposed twoo Popes in order : 2. Tomo . Conciliorum , In vita Syluerij , & Vigilij . firste Pope Syluerius , and afterwarde Pope Vigilius . And al this did they without leuieinge of armie , without raisinge of power , without disquiet , or trouble of the people . And a Doctoure of your owne , seeminge fully to determine the mater by a Booke case , saithe thus , Imperator , requisitus à Cardinalibus , Heruaeus De potest . Papae . ca. 13. debet procedere contra Papam : The Emperoure , beinge required by the Cardinalles , is bounde to procede ( to depriuation ) againste the Pope . An other saithe thus , Si quando Imperialis Legatus mitteretur à Principe , vt Romanus Pontifex proficisceretur Constantinopolim ad Imperatorem , Appendix Eutropij , in Syluerio . omni neglecta occasione , ibat , etiamsi pro certo sciret , se iturum in exilium : If at any time the Emperours Embassadoure had benne sente from his Prince , to wil the Pope to comme to Constantinople to the Emperoure , al occasions set aparte , he wente streight waie , notwithstandinge he certainely knewe , he shoulde be bannished . Vrspergensis saithe , Henricus Rex Italiam ingressus , Vrspergen . Anno . 1045. tres Papas indigne constitutos synodaliter deposuit : Henry the Emperoure , comminge into Italie , deposed three Popes vnlawfully made , by order of Synode .

Now , M. Hardinge , if you , with your Rhetorical furniture , maie crie oute , O what a Diuine Power had the Pope , that thus coulde depose a Kinge : why maie not wée likewise saie , O what a Diuine Power had the Emperoure , that thus could depose so many Popes ?

But , that ye maie the better see this woonderful Diuinitie , and Heauenly power , wherewith ye would so faine enfeaffe the Pope , a witnesse of your owne saith thus , Heruaeus De Potest . Papae , Ca. 13. Quod dicitur , Papam deposuisse Regem Francorum , & loco eius instituisse Pipinum , Glosa ordinaria exponit , Deposuit , id est , deponentibus consensit . Non enim legitur , quòd Papa Zacharias Regem Franciae deposuerit : Where as it is saide , that the Pope deposed the Frenche Kinge , and placed Pipinus in his roume , The Ordinarie Glose expoundeth it thus : He deposed him , that is to saie , He consented to them , that did depose him . For wee reade not , that Pope Zacharie in deede euer deposed the Frenche Kinge .

The truthe of the Storie is this , For as mutche as Chilpericus the Kinge séemed voide of Princely grauitie , and had geuen him selfe ouer to pleasure , and wantonnesse , and Pipinus his Lorde Marshal , a man ful of Wisedome , and actiuttie , had the Gouernmente , and burthen of al the Realme , the Nobles of France hauinge agreed emongest them selues , to depose the one , and to set vp the other , sente vnto Pope Zacharie , as vnto a wise man , to haue his answeare to this question , Whether were meeter to be Kinge , Paulus Aemylius , Lib. 2. Gaguinus . He that carried onely the name , and did nothinge : Or he , that bare the burthen of the whole . The Pope was soone persuaded , to geue sentence with Pipinus the Lorde Marshal , againste the Kinge . Whereupon the Kinge was shorne into an Abbie , & made a Moncke : Pipinus auanced vnto the state , gaue the Pope the Exarchate , or Princehoode of Rauenna , in parte of recompense of his good wil.

Whether the kinge hauinge niene yéeres ruled his Realme , were afterwarde depriued by right , or by wronge , I wil not reason . Fasciculus Temporum saithe , The kingedome was remoued from the right Heires .

The Line of Kinge Pipine endured , and florished a longe while : And that , ye saie , was no obscure argumente of Heauenly Approbation , and Diuine Prouidence . By sutche Approbation , and Prouidence , the Turke maie claime . For he hath bothe longer continued , and mutche more floorished , and encreased his estate , then euer did the house of Pipine . Plutarch . in Catone Vticen . But Cato was woonte to saie , Multum est caliginis in rebus Diuinis : There is greate darkenesse in Goddes maters .

Yet leste any man of ignorance happen herein to be deceiued , this was the very true descente , and floorishinge Fortune of Kinge Pipines race :

The Firste thereof was Charles the Greate : Benuenutus Imolensis in Augustali . In his time , saithe Benuenutus Imolensis , Laceratum est Imperium : The state of the Empiere was torne in sunder .

The Seconde was Ludouicus Pius : Againste him his owne Sonne Lotharius arose , Paulus Aemylius , Lib. 3. and caused him to be shorne as a Moncke , and to be thruste into an Abb●e , and his owne Mother the Empresse to be made a Nonne .

The Thirds was Lotharius : He oppressed his owne Brethren by violence : and afterwarde was deposed , and made a Monke .

The Fourthe was Ludouicus . 2 : He was vnfortunate in al his dooinges : and was shamefully conquered by his Brother .

The Fifthe was Ludouicus 3 : Paul . Aemylius in Chronice . Whom , for his doughty déedes , they commonly calle Ludouicus Nihili : which is as mutche to saie , as Lewes Nobody .

The Sixth was Carolus 2. named Caluus : as Benuenutus saithe , Vir lepore timidior : A man more feareful , and more cowardely , then a hare . He was shortly slaine with poison .

The Seuenthe was Carolus 3 : as Benuenutus saithe , Vir deficiens & animo , & Corpore : A man wantinge bothe strength of Body , and wisedome of Minde : that is to saie , bothe a Cowarde , and a Foole .

The Eighth was Arnulphus : Benuenutus Imolen . in Augustali . He was eaten vp with Life .

The Nienthe was Ludouicus 3. by the reporte of Benuenutus , a man of no better Fortune then his Father . In him that house had an ende . This is that Noble Pipines race , Nihilo foelicior Patre . In eo defecit Imperium in Gente Carolorum . M. Hardinge , that coulde not so stande , and floorishe , as you saie , without special Heauenly Approbation , and Diuine Prouidence .

M. Hardinge .

Concerninge that ye saie of Kinge Philip surnamed Le Bel , if we maie beleue Paulus AEmylius the beste writer of the Frenche Chronicles , the cause was suche betwene Pope Bonifacius , and that Kinge , that if he did not onely excommunicate him , but also offered gifte of his Kingedome to Albert the Emperour , as Platina your Authour herein writeth : he maie seeme therein to haue done * * Not altogeather so euil . A proper qualification . not altogeather so euill , as ye pretende . For , as bothe AEmilius and Platine doo witnesse , the cause of their fallinge out was , that whereas the Pope being first sued vnto by Cassanus a Christian Prince , and a greate Conquerour in the Easte , to ioine with him for the recouery of the Holy lande , sente the Bishop of Apamea to the Frenche Kinge for his necessary aide in that so common a quarell of al Christendome : he beinge offended , either that the sute was not firste made to him , either for that the saide Bishop had done his Ambassade with she we of more Auctoritie , then the Kinge thought it became him . or vpon some other priuate grudge , did not onely vtterly refuse to sende any healpe towarde the voiage , but also contemptuously , beside common order , and cruelly , committed the Popes Legate to Prison , and there kepte him , vntill suche time , as through the Popes interdict , the Kinge was compelled to set him at libertie . Nowe of geuinge awaie his Kingedome , this chiefe Frenche Historiographer maketh no mention . And if the Pope so did , why maie he not seme to haue done it ‡ ‡ A ioily waie , to fraie a Kinge . rather to feare him , and to reclaime his minde from disobedience ? Verely Platina writinge it , declareth , howe before the Pope proceded to that extremitie , the Frenche Kinge did what in him laie , * * By this Diuinitie , if any Kingedome refuse to be subiecte , and thral to the See of Rome , the Pope maie geue the same awaie at his pleasure . to withdrawe the people of Fraunce from the obedience of the Churche and See Apostolike .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , ye stammer in your tale , and knowe not wel , what to saie . If the Pope gaue awaie the Kingedome of France from the Prince , he did it , ye saie , to the intent to feare him . A prety diuise , Philippus . Bonifacius . 8. to fraie a Kinge , to pulle the Crowne Emperial from his heade .

Firste , this Pope Bonifacius is he , of whom it was saide , Intrauit , vt Vulpes : Regnauit , vt Lupus : Mortuus est , vt Canis : He entred into the Popedome as a Foxe : He reigned as a Woulfe : he died ( in prison ) as a Dogge . In Solemne Procession he wente attired with the Crowne Emperial , Paralip . Vrspergen . and Robe of Maiestie , as an Emperoure , and commaunded the Naked swerde to be borne before him . In the Storie of his Life ioined with his owne Booke , In vita Bonifacij 8. In Sexto : Idem in Platyna . named , Sextus Bonifacij . 8. it is written thus : Moritur hoc modo Bonifacius , qui Imperatoribus , Regibus , Principibus , Nationibus , Populis terrorem potiùs , quàm Religionem inijcere conabatur : Thus died Pope Bonifacius , a man , that sought more to strike terroure into Emperours , Kinges , Princes , People , and Nations , then true Religion .

This Bonifacius , Sabel . Aenead . 9. Lib. 7. saithe Sabellicus , sente to the Frenche Kinge for monie , as he pretended , towardes the recouerie of Hierusalem . The Bishop of Apamea , beinge his Legate in that behalfe , vttered certaine greate woordes in the presence of the Kinge , and threatened him , onlesse he woulde graunte it .

The Kinge , not quietly bearinge sutche presumptuous boldenesse , commaunded the Apostolique Legate vnto warde . This iniurie so inflamed the Popes choler , that immediately he sente the Archebishop of Narbon to the Kinge , to require him to set his Legate at libertie : otherwise to tel him , that for his wickednesse , the righte of his Kingedome was fallen to the Churche of Rome . Thus Sabellicus , in fauoure of the Pope , thought it good somewhat to shadowe the mater .

But others thereof haue written thus : Martinus Polonus . Bonifacius 8. mandat Regi , se esse Dominum in Spiritualibus , & temporalibus in vniuerso Mundo : Vtque Rex recognoscat Regnum Franciae à se . Contrarium enim sentire , & tenere , Haereticum esse : Bonifacius 8. sente vnto the Frenche Kinge , and tolde him , that he was Lorde bothe in Spiritual , and also in Temporal maters throughout the worlde : and therefore , that the Kinge shoulde holde his Kingedome at his hande . For otherwise to thinke , and holde , he saide , it was Heresie : This is it , that in the name of the Pope is noted in your Glose : Dist. 81. Si qui. In Glossa . Quicunque praeceptis nostris non obedierit , peccatum Idololatriae , & Paganitatis incurrit : Who so euer obeieth not our commaundementes , falleth into the Sinne of Idolatrie , Abbas Vrspergen . and Infidelitie . Hereof Vrspergensis writeth thus , Habes , Roma , quod sitisti : decanta Canticum : quia per malitiam , non per Religionem orbem vicisti : O Rome , thou haste nowe , that thou haste so longe thirsted after . Nowe singe menly . For by thy malice , not by Religion , thou haste conquered the worlde .

The Kinge , beinge moued herewith , commaunded that none of his Cleregie shoulde comme to the Popes Councel : Paulus Aemyl . Platyna . Sabellicus . Nauclerus . He openly burnte the Popes writes : He commaunded the Popes Legate to departe out of his Realme : He forebade that any monie shoulde be made thence to the Pope : He gaue out Proclamations , that none of his Subiectes shoulde goe to Rome : And in the Synode at Parise he charged the Pope with Pride , Ambition , Murder , Simonie , and Heresie .

Thus mutche of the dealinge of the Crowne of France vnto a stranger : that is to saie , of the Faithe , and Reuerence , that the Pope beareth to Kinges , and Princes . Here folowed sommewhat of the spoilinge of the Duke of Sauoie , and of the alteringe of the state of Florence : whiche thinges I thought it beste to passe ouer , as not woorthy of any Answeare .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 4.

Wee are accloied with Examples in this behalfe , and it should be very tedious , to recken vp al the notorious practises of the Bishoppes of Rome . But of whiche side were they , I beseche you , that poisoned Henrie the Emperoure , Poison in the Sacramente . euen in the receiuinge of the Sacramente ? Whiche poisoned Victor the Pope , euen in the receiuinge of the Chalice ? Whiche poisoned our Kinge Iohn , Kinge of England , in a Drinkinge Cuppe ? Whoe so euer at least they were , and of what secte so euer , I am sure , they were neither Lutherans , nor Zwinglians .

M. Hardinge .

The Findes of Hell were not yet let loose , that begate Lutherans , Zwinglians , and Caluinistes . And hereof we vnderstande the youthe of your Churche , whiche hauinge diuided it selfe from the olde and Catholike Churche , is no other but the malignante Churche , and Synagoge of Satan .

To answeare your demaundes . Who so euer they were , that poisoned these greate personages , ( if they were poisoned at all ) good men were they not , neither the doers , nor the counsailours . Henry of Luxenburg it was , who was poisoned by reporte . Whome your Latine Booke printed amonge the Huguenots calleth Henry the seuenth , M. Doctor Haddon in his answeare to Osorius , accompteth him the fourthe , in bothe your Englishe translations ( that I haue seene ) he is called onely Henry . As he laide siege to the Citie of Florence , and had now brought the Citizens to despaire of their safetie : when manly courage might not serue , they betooke them to cowardly malice . Firste they poysoned ( as it is saide ) the minde of a frier Dominican with Golde , that afterwarde he shoulde aduentere to poison the Emperours body with Venime . Paulus Aemilius saith , that he died of a sickenesse , whiche he fell into at Bonconuento , Lib. 8. In scholij● in Platinam . as he iournied from Pisa thither . Onuphrius , writing of his Death , saith that he died at Bonconuento a town in the territorie of Siena , and maketh no mention of his Poisoning . Cornelius Cornepolita writing this storie , semeth to geue litle credite vnto it . For he addeth an heare saie , Vt aiunt , In Chronographia . as they saie , as though it were a matter auouched by no certainetie , but by Hearesaie . Nauclerus reporteth , that the order of those religius men is saide to haue a testimoniall in writinge , witnessinge the foresaide Friere to haue benne Innocent , and that the whole was but a fained tale .

Victor the thirde Pope is mentioned by Martinus Polonus , to haue benne poisoned by the malicious procurement of the Emperoure Henry the thirde , bicause he stoode in defence of Gregory the seuenth , whom the Emperour so muche hated and persecuted . Vincentius holdeth contrary opinion , that he died of a dysentery ▪ as Platina reciteth .

Touchinge Kinge Iohn of Englande , they that write that he was poisoned in a drinkinge cuppe by Monkes , them selues make no better then a fable of it : and who so euer write it , referre them selues to hearesaie , and to the popular fame . The Author of your Actes and Monumentes reporteth , that many opinions are amonge the Chronicle writers of his Deathe . As ye procede in your malicious railinge against the Pope , ye spitte out your poison , demaundinge certaine question , shorte , in Woordes ▪ but full stuffed with false and cankered slaunders .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Poisoninge of that Noble Emperoure Henrie of Lucenburg , in the Sacramente , whereby it appeareth , how farre foorthe the States of the worlde ought to truste you , ye would haue vs to passe lightly ouer , as a Fable . Of your Onuphrius , and Cornelius , and other like Parasites , wée make no reckeninge . The truthe of the storie is reported by many . Paralipom . Vrsperg . Ann. 1313. Bapt. Egnatius . Auentinus . Carion . Supplementum Chron. Vrspergensis saithe , Quidam Religiosus porrexit Imperatori intoxicatam Eucharistiam &c. A certaine Religious man ministred vnto the Emperoure the Sacramente poisoned . The Emperoure hauinge receiued it , and returninge againe vnto his place , thought that a peece of colde Ise was paste alonge through his body .

Baptista Egnatius saithe , it was wrought by the policie of Robertus Kinge of Sicilia , moued therto , as Auentinus saithe , by Pope Clemente . 5. The same ye shal finde recorded in Carion , Textor in Officina : Veneno extincti . in Supplemento Chronicorum , in Rauisius Textor , and sundrie others .

The like recorde there is founde of poisoninge of Victor . 3. in the Chalice . For the more credite whereof it maie please you to reade Martinus Polonus the Popes Penitentiarie , Volaterranus , Matthaeus Palmerius , the Supplie of Chronicles , Fasciculus Temporum , Textor , and others .

Touchinge the deathe of Kinge Iohn , whether he were poisoned by a Monke , or no , I wil not striue : referringe mée selfe therein to the credite of our Chronicles : the common reporte whereof , togeather with the general opinion of the people , is this , that he was destroied with poison . But what so euer were the cause of his death , Matthias Parisien . An. 1211. Matthias Parisiensis saithe thus , Papa Innocentius sententionaliter definiuit &c. Pope Innocentius determined by sentence , that Kinge Iohn should be deposed from his estate . And he enioined the execution thereof to the Frenche Kinge , for Remission of his Sinnes , promisinge him also faithfully , that , if he so did , he , and his Successours should enioie the Kingedome of Englande for euer . So mutche is Englande bounde to reuerence , and obeie the Pope .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 2.

What is he at this daie , whiche alloweth the mightiest Kinges and Monarches of the worlde to kisse his blessed Feete ?

M. Hardinge .

It is he ( saie we ) that humbly for his owne persone refuseth suche honour , that calleth , and thinketh him selfe , Seruum Seruorum Dei , the seruant of the seruantes of God . But when he seeth the greate powers and Princes of the worlde humble them selues to Christe , Lorde of all Lordes , and Kinge of all Kinges , in the person of him , whose Vicare on Earthe he is , and chiefe deputie in those thinges , that be to God warde : not vnmindefull what he is of him selfe , for the roomes sake that he beareth , and for his honour whose vicegerent he is , the rather also for * * A proper Schole of Humilitie . example of Humilitie and Obedience , so to be taken and learned of others of inferiour degree : he suffereth that honour to be done , whiche is more then a mere man can require . Neither is this the pride of Popes at these daies onely , as ye obiect , but the example of suche humilitie in Princes we can proue to be auncient .

The greate Kinge Charlemaigne , who afterwarde was create Emperoure , coulde not be withholden by the Pope Adrian the firste , Platina in vita Adriani . but at the firste meetinge he woulde kisse his feete . Many other Emperours and Kinges haue of olde time done likewise . And lest the Soueraintie of suche Honour exhibited vnto him shoulde in his owne conceite lifte him higher then for the degree of humaine condition , ‡ ‡ Phy forshame . cannot the pope learne Humilitie , but by a draughte ? to that purpose serueth the stoole of naturall easement at his creation , whereof your surmise is * * Vntruthe . For it is not sur mised by vs , but recorded by your owne writers . Sabellicus saithe , Vt sedentis genitalia ab vltimo Diacono attrectentur . very vile , to temper the highnesse of that vocation with the base consideration of humaine infirmities and necessities .

The B. of Sarisburie .

What thinge is there , either so vile , or so horrible , but by sutche proper excuses maie soone be smoothed ? Chrysostome saithe , Haec , etsi minima esse videantur , tamen magnorum sunt causae malorum . Chrysostom . in Matthae . Homil. 74. Nam & Ciuitates , & Ecclesias saepe numerò euerterunt . Propterea nec à lachrymis abstinere possum , cùm primos istos consessus & salutationes audiam , ac in mentem veniat , quot , quantá hinc mala in Ecclesia Die orta sint : These thinges , notwithstandinge they seeme smal , yet are they the causes of greate euils . For oftentimes haue they ouerthrowen bothe Citties , and Churches . Therefore I cannot absteine from weepinge , when I heare of these Superiorities , and Salutations : and consider , how many , and howe greate euils haue growen thereof in the Churche of God . Hieronym . in Epist ad Galathas Cap. 4. S. Hierome , mutche mislikinge the state of his time , saithe thus , Episcopi , velut in aliqua sublimi specula constituti , vix dignantur videre mortales , & alloqui conserous suos : The Bishoppes , as if thei were placed in somme high Castle , scarce●y vouchesaue to looke vpon poore mortal menne , and to speake vnto their felowe seruantes .

Touchinge the Bishop of Rome , Kisse the Popes foote . it is not for nought , that S. Gregorie saith , Rex Superbiae in foribus est : The Kinge of Pride is euen at hande . In the Popes owne Booke of the Ceremonies of Rome , Gregor. Lib 4. Epist. 38. it is written thus , Electus Imperator cum suis omnibus , seruato ordine , per gradus ascendit suggestum . Et vt primùm videt Pontificem , detecto capite , Ceremoniar . Li. 1. Sectio . 5. Ca. 3. Deuotè osculatur . illum , genu terram contingens , veneratur : & iterum , cùm appropinquat ad gradus Sedis , genuflectit : demum , vbi ad Pontificis pedes peruenit , illos in reuerentiam Saluatoris Deuotè osculatur : The Emperoure Electe goeinge in arraie with al his traine , passeth vp the staires into the Scaffolde . And as soone , as he seethe the Pope , he woorshippeth him with bare heade , touchinge the grounde with his knee : Againe , when he commeth to the foote of the Popes throne , he kneeleth downe . Laste of al , when he commeth vnto the Popes Feete , he kisseth them deuoutely in the reuerence of our saueour . This is ordered , as a special Ceremonie , and appointed vnto the Emperoure , as parte of his duetie .

Likewise it is written of the Empresse , as concerninge her duetie : Imperatrix Coronata , Ceremoniar . Li. 1. Sectio . 5. Ca. 6. Ceremoniarium . Lib. 3. Cap. 2. mox osculatur Pedem Pontificis : The Empresse beinge Crowned immediately kisseth the Popes foote .

Againe of the Pope him selfe it is written thus : Papa nemini omninò mortalium reuerentiam facit , assurgendo manifestè , aut Caput inclinando , seu detegendo : The Pope him selfe geeueth no manner of reuerence to any man aliue , either openly by standinge vp , or by bowinge downe , or by vncoueringe his Heade .

But the Pope , saie you , humbly , for his owne personne , refuseth sutche honoure , and hereby teacheth Kinges , and Emperours , and al their Subiectes to be humble . A strange case , to teache Humilitie in the Schole of Pride . Sutche Humilitie taught Iulius Caesar , Diocletian , and Maximinus . Iulius Caesar raughte oute his foote for Pompeius Poenus to kisse , that folkes might sée his Golden Slipper sette with stoanes . Seneca . Pomponius Laetus in Diocletiano . Pomponius Laetus saithe , Diocletianus edicto sanxit &c. Diocletian commaunded by Proclamation , that al menne shoulde fal downe , and kisse his Feete : whereunto also be added a certaine reuerence , adourninge his shoes with Golde , Alexander ab Alexandro . 2. Thessalon . 2. and Diamondes . Maximinus also afterwarde did the like .

Sutche Humilitie shal Antichriste teache , auancinge him selfe aboue al that is woorshipped , or called God .

Sutche Humilitie the Diuel tooke vpon him to teache , when he saide to Christe , I wil geue thee al these thinges , Matthae . 4. if thou wilte fal downe , and woorship me .

Thus maie the Pope cal him selfe Lorde of Lordes : Kinge of Kinges : and sette his foote on Emperours neckes : and yet neuerthelesse , if he can frame a newe title , and saie , He is Seruus Seruorum Dei , The Seruante of Goddes Seruantes , it is no Pride : it is but Humilitie .

Antoninus saith , Antoninus in Summa , Par. 3. ti. 22. Ca. 5. §. 4. Non minor honor debetur Papae , quàm Angelis . Vnde Papa recipit à Fidelibus Adorationes , Prostrationes , & Oscula pedum : quod non permisit Angelus à Iohanne Euangelista sibi fieri : There is no lesse honour dewe vnto the Pope , then vnto the Angels of God . Therefore the Pope suffereth the Faitheful to Woorship him , to fal downe before him , and to kisse his Feete : whiche thinges the Angel of God woulde not suffer S. Iohn the Euangeliste to doo vnto him .

This , M. Hardinge , is no maliceous Railinge , as yée cal it , nor Spite , nor Poison , nor Vntruthe stuffed with false , and cankered sclaunders . By the reporte of your owne Doctours , and by your owne Confession , it is the Truthe .

The Porphyrie Stoole of easemente serueth , ye saie , to put the Pope in minde of his Humanitie , that is to saie , that he maie remember him selfe , in the middes of al his glorie , to be a man . No , no , M. Hardinge , your owne Authours , and stories can tel you , that stoole serueth , to put the Pope in remembrance of his Virilitie : that the worlde maie knowe , he is no woman .

But let your imagination stande for true . Yet maie wée thinke , your Popes are so forgeatful , or so dulheaded , or so blockishe , that they haue neede to be taught by so vile examples , to knowe them selues ? Certainely this is a Mystical kinde of Stoole of Easemente . Wée cannot lightly lacke Mysteries at his handes , if so homely a place be so ful of Mysteries . Kinge Alexander the Greate vnderstoode him selfe to be a Man Mortal , Plutarch . in Alexandr● . for that he was sommetimes of natural necessitie forced to sléepe . But Christes Vicare : Peters Successoure : The Doctoure of al Doctoures : The Father of al Fathers : The Maister , and Teacher of al the worlde , were it not for a stoole of casemente , woulde quite forgeate his owne Humanitie , and coulde neuer remember him selfe to be a Man .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 3.

What is he , that commaundeth the Emperoure to goe by him at his horse bridle , and the Frenche Kinge to holde his stirope ?

M. Hardinge .

What he is . * * Vntruthes twoo togeather● Reade the Answeare . we knowe not , * nor you neither , Sir Defender . This we knowe , that in these woordes moste impudently you belie the Pope . For neuer was there Pope that commaunded either Frenche Kinge , or Emperoure to doo the seruice you speake of . Parte of that I haue readen perteininge hereunto , I will here recite .

The woorthiest and greatest Prince that euer was in Earthe , Constantine the Greate , to witnesse openly the reuerence whiche he bare in his harte to Christe our Sauiour , and to S. Peter , whose Successoure the Pope is , as likewise Christes Vicar in Earthe , disdained not to honour S Syluester Pope in his time , with doinge ‡ ‡ Al this is a great vntruthe , and a shamelesse Fable . the office of a footeman to him , and with leadinge his Horse by the Bridle . Wherein he seemeth , as firste of all Emperours he professed the Faithe of Christe openly , so firste of all Princes to haue geuen to the posteritie an example of Humilitie . That no man doubte of it , this muche I finde recorded by an olde Father of the Greeke Churche , Matthaeus Hierom●nac hus , as vttered by Constantine him selfe : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . This is Greeke euen for a Pope . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Whiche ●n Englishe is this muche . Submittinge our selfe to the office of a foote man , and holdinge his Horse by the Bridle , wee leade him foorthe out of his sacred Palais , in the woorship and reuerence of S. Peter .

That sithens bothe Emperoures , and Frenche Kinges of Humilitie and deuotion , and to witnesse their humble obedience to Christe in his Vicar , haue donne the like seruice , yea though the Pope shewed him selfe neuer so vnwillinge thereto : wee finde it reported in sundrie good recordes . * * Vntruthe most manifeste . For it is thus Ordred in the Popes owne Pontifical , and in his owne Booke of Ceremonies . But that he euer commaunded any suche seruice to be donne vnto him , ye can neuer she we it by any indifferente and credible witnesse . Paulus Aemylius an Italian of Verona , in the seconde Booke of his Chronicles , whiche bothe diligently and eloquently he wrote of Fraunce , describeth howe honorably Pipine that woorthy Kinge of Fraunce receiued Steuen the Pope , that succeded Zacharias , when he came into his Realme . He bothe killed his feete , and wente by him at his Horse bridell .

The like honour of holdinge the Stirope would Charles the fifthe the late greate Emperoure haue downe at B●non●a to Pope Clement the seuenth , had not the Pope with mutche adoo put him from it .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This thinge Sir Defender knoweth : notwithstandinge you , M. Hardinge , dissemble it cunningely , and wil not be knowen , that ye knowe it . Neither dooth Sir Defender , as you saie , by these woordes impudently belie the Pope . For trial hereof he referreth you to the Popes owne Booke of Holy Ceremonies : wherein in it is particularely appointed , The Popes Bridle . and laide out in order , to auoide confusion , what eche estate ought , The Popes Stirope . and is bounde to doo .

Thus therefore it is appointed , Cùm Papa per scalam ascendit &c. When the Pope taketh his staires to mounte on Horsebacke , Ceremoniarium . Lib. 1. Cap. 8. the greattest Prince , that is presente , whether he be Kinge , or Emperoure , holdeth his Stirope : and afterwarde leadeth his Horse a litle waie forewarde by the Bridle . But if there were twoo Kinges in presence , the more Honorable of them shoulde holde the Bridle of the Rightside : and the other of the leaste . If there happen no Kinge to be presente , then lette the woorthiest personnes leade his Horse . Etiamsi Imperator , aut quiuts maximus Princeps adesset , Sellam ipsam cum Pontifice in humeris aliquantulum portare debet : Ceremoniar . Li. 1 sectio . 5. Ca. 4. Dum Imperator haec vtilitatis Officia vult exhebere &c. Tandem cum aliquibus bonis verbis recipiendo , permittit &c. Ceremoniarium . Lib. 1. Cap. 8. But if the Pope woulde not ride , but he borne on mennes shoulders in a Chaire , then muste foure of the woorthiest Princes , yea the Emperoure him selfe , or any other mighty Monarche , if he be presente , beare the Chaire , Pope and al , a litle waie forewarde vpon theire shoulders . Againe , Imperator , traditis Pomo , & Sceptro &c. The Emperoure deliueringe ouer his Goulden Apple , and his Sceptre to one of his menne , commeth vnto the Popes Horse , and in honoure of our Lorde Iesus Christe , whole personne in Earthe the Pope heareth , he holdeth the Stirope , vntil the● Pope be mounted : and afterwarde he taketh the Bridle , and leadeth foorthe his Horse . While the Emperoure doothe these profitable offices , the Pope ought modestly a litle to refuse the same : and yet afterwarde , with certaine good , and gentle woordes , takinge that honoure as donne to Christe , and not vnto him selfe , he holdeth him selfe contented .

Further it is appointed thus , Caudam pluuialis portabit Nobilior Laicus , qui erit in Curia , etiamsi esset Imperator , aut Rex : The moste Noble Laie man , that shal be in the Courte , shal beare vp the traine of the Popes Cope , yea though it be an Emperoure , or a Kinge . Againe , * * Ceremoniar . Li. 1. Sectio . 3. Let the moste Noble Laic man , whether he be Kinge , or Emperoure , bringe water to wasshe the Popes handes . And while the Pope wassheth , let al the Bishoppes , and Laie menne kneele downe .

Againe , Pontifice sedente &c. ‡ ‡ Ceremoniar . Lib. 2. Cap. 10. Etiamsi Rex aut Imperator sit . While the Pope is yet sittinge at the Table , the Noblest man within the Courte , be he Emperoure , be he Kinge , shal be broughte to the Popes Credence , to geue him Water .

Againe , * * Ceremoniar . Li. 1. Sectio . 3. Primum ferculum portabit Nobilior Princeps , siue Imperator sit , siue Rex : The firste disshe the Noblest Prince shal carrie , whether he be Emperoure , or Kinge . Againe , ‡ ‡ Ceremonia . Li. 1. Sectio . 13. ca. 2. Rex in collatione portabit primum potum : When the Pope is at Breakefaste , the Kinge shal beare his firste Cuppe . And againe , Pocula portentur &c. Let the Popes Cuppes be borne by the Noble menne , or Oratours beinge presente : and let the Clerke of the Ceremonies beginne with the woorthiest estate : yea though he be Kinge , or Emperoure .

Nowe , I truste , M. Hardinge , of your courteste , ye wil confesse , that Sir Defender , in these woordes , hath not so impudently belied the Pope . The Popes owne Booke of Ordinances , and Ceremonies , that directeth al orders , saithe thus :

The Emperoure shal holde the Popes Stirope : Let the Emperoure leade the Popes Horse : The Emperoure muste beare the Popes Chaire on his shoulder : The Emperoure shal beare vp the Popes traine : Let the Emperoure bringe the Bason and Ewer to the Pope : The Emperoure shal geue the Pope water : The Emperoure shal carrie the Popes Firste disshe : The Emperoure shal carrie the Popes firste Cuppe .

For excuse hereof , perhaps yée wil saie , These were the Abuses of Olde times : But nowe al sutche disorders are wel refourmed . Therefore it maie please you to remember , that the selfe same Ceremonies , touchinge Kinges and Emperours dueties , haue benne lately renewed , and confirmed , and published abroade into the worlde , woorde by woorde as they were before , without any manner alteration , euen in the Popes owne Pontifical , and that euen nowe newly printed at Venice , in the yéere of Our Lorde a thousande fiue hundred thrée scoare and one , whereby it maie appeare , yee are ashamed of nothinge , be it neuer so shameful .

What truthe therefore , M. Hardinge , is in your woorde ? Or , with what countenance coulde ye so boldely saie , That the Pope euer commaunded any sutche Seruice to be donne vnto him by the Emperoure , yee can neuer shewe it by any indifferent and credible witnesse ? I doubte not , but the Popes owne witnesse is vnto you of sufficiente credite : and in his owne case it muste néedes to him selfe seeme indifferente . Hereby it plainely appeareth , that in al Offices , and Seruices , the Pope vseth the Emperoure as his man . Therefore Auentinus reporteth these twoo verses , written sometime of the Emperoure Lotharius the seconde ,

Rex venit ad fores , Auentinus in Fredericho . 1. iurans per Vrbis honores : Pòst homo fit Papac , sumit quo dante Coronam :

The Kinge , or Emperoure commeth to the gates , and sweareth by the honoure of the Cittie : And afterwarde becommeth the Popes Man , at whose handes he receiueth the Crowne .

That Pipinus so mutche abased him selfe to Pope Steuin , it is no marueile . The Prouerbe is common , One hande claweth an other . The Pope was auanced by Pipine : and Pipine was likewise auanced by the Pope . But hereof we haue spoken before .

Where ye saie , The Emperoure Constantine the Greate was footeman to the Pope , I am mutche ashamed of your vanitie , that beinge a man of wisedome , & learninge , ye should thus seeke to mocke the worlde with Childishe Fables .

Ye allege Matthaeus Hieromonachus , to proue a Fable by a Fable . If yee woulde das●e your Readers eies , for that ye allege his woordes in Greeke , vnderstande you , that his peeuishe Greeke was taken out of your peeuishe Latine . And yet is the same Greeke so fonde , & so ful of folie , that ye were ashamed truely to turne it into Englishe . For thus it standeth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : That is , In the woorship and feare of my Lorde Blessed Peter . Ye durste not , to make the Emperoure Constantine so rude , to saie , that Peter was his Lorde : and therefore ye thought it better , to corrupte , and alter your Authours woordes . Yet sutche vaine Fables , and Trifles muste ye bringe in , to put vs , as ye saie , quite oute of doubte .

But hereof wee shal saie more hereafter .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 4.

Who hurled vnder his table Frauncise Dandalus , the Duke of Venice , Kinge of Creta & Cypres , faste bounde with chaines , to feede of bones amonge his Dogges ?

M. Hardinge .

Were not this Defender passed all shame , he woulde not make so many and so shamelesse lies . Malice hath so farre blinded him , that he seemeth not to see , what becommeth a man . Though he feare not to be accompted a lier , yet he shoulde be lothe to be accompted an vnhonest man , yea and specially a foole . ‡ ‡ In this One litle Marginal note , M. Hardinge hath vttered foure Vntruthes altogeather . Reade the Answeare . Let truthe and honestie goe , for in deede there is litle in these felowes : what foolishnesse is it , a man to bringe all his doctrine , and all his saieinges , touchinge thinges that he would so fame be beleued , ‡ ‡ Sabellicus Decadis . 2. li. 1. 1220. Historiae rerum Ven●tarū lib. 4. into so great and certaine discredite , by suche open and manifest lies ? The truthe hereof is this , as I finde it witnessed in Sabellicus , and in the chiefest Chronicles the Venettars haue , written by a Noble ma of Venis , named Petrus Iustinianus . The Citie of Venus being interdicted of the Pope , Frauncys Dandalus was sente by the Duke and Lordes of the Counceil there , to sue for Absolution . At that time was he neither Kinge of Creta , Franciscus Dandalus . nor of Cypres , nor Duke of Venis , as it pleaseth this liinge Defender to write of him , and that in the Defence of their Englishe Churche written to all the worlde . Iohannes Superantius then was Duke , and this Frauncys Dandalus was ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he was then a Senatour of very greate Honour : And at the nexte Election was chosen Duke . but a Priuate man for that time , as others there were . This Ambassadour Frauncys Dandalus findinge the Pope at his firste comminge not well inclined to graunte his petition as he wished , the * * The offence stoode onely in healpinge their Neighbour , beinge a bannished man , into his Countrie . qualitie of the offence deseruinge the same : to moue him to clemencie and pitie , aduised with him selfe to plaie this Pagent . He caused an yron chaine to be tied aboute his necke . Therewith he came to the Pope as he s●te at dinner , put him selfe to crepe on all foure , and like a Dogge laide him downe vnder the Table , so longe vntill the Popes displeasure beinge assuaged , he obteined Pardone for his Countrie . Whereof , they saie , he had afterwarde the surname of Dogge geuen him , as Iustinianus writeth . Who desireth to see the whole Storie , he shal finde it well written by the saide Petrus Iustinianus , Historiae rerum Venetarum libro quarto . Nowe let vs see , Syr Defender , howe many lyes ye make in one sentence . That Frauncys Dandalus was by the Pope hurled vnder his Table , this is one lie . That he was then Duke of Venis , Kinge of Creta and Cipres , there be two lies , beside the Notable lie , you seeme to be very ignorant of the state of Venis , in that you make the Duke an Ambassadour , who beinge once created Duke , goeth not out of the Citie . ‡ ‡ Yet the right , and state of bothe these Kingedomes is in his hande . Neither is euer any of their state Kinge of Candy and Cipres . For their state admitteth none to be a Kinge amonge them : how be it at the time of Frauncys Dandalus Candy rebelled , and Cipres was not yet come to be vnder the gouernement of the Venetians , as you might haue learned in the eloquent Historie that Petrus Bembus wrote of Venis his Countrie . That he was faste bounde with Chaines , there be three Lies . For he was not fast bounde , * * Al these maters be ful solemnely proued , and are woorthy to be publisshed by Proclamation . onely he had caste a chaine aboute his owne necke , whiche he mighte haue taken of at his pleasure . That he was so throwen vnder the Table to gnawe boanes amonge the Popes Dogges , * * Al these maters be ful solemnely proued , and are woorthy to be publisshed by Proclamation . there be foure lies . And that the Pope had Dogges feedinge of boanes vnder his Table , * * * Al these maters be ful solemnely proued , and are woorthy to be publisshed by Proclamation . I doubte not but it is other lie . Whether these fiue lies be not ynough for one litle sentence of three lines , I reporte me to whosoeuer of your owne fellowes lieth for the best game . I thinke verely this Defender if he be not very shamelesse , wisheth he had a thicker bearde to hide his slike chekes from blusshinge . Suche false causes must be defended by lyinge proctours . If they belied stories onely , and taught not also false Doctrine in the chiefe pointes of our Faith , their lying were lesse hurtfull .

The B. of Sarisburie .

So many lies , M. Hardinge , and , as ye saie , so farre paste shame , and sutche hote Tragedies , and the cause no greatter ? What sturre woulde ye haue keapte , if it had benne mater woorthy the hearinge ? what if the Authoure of the Apologie had benne ouerséene in the reporte of one yeere , or twoo , or in somme other like Circumstance , the Substance of the Storie neuerthelesse stil reserued ? If yée had remembred somme of your owne often ouersightes , ye coulde not for shame haue benne so terrible againste others . For it appeareth wel , by al that yee haue hitherto sente vs ouer , your insighte in matters is not so deepe , but yee maie often , and fouly be deceiued . You your selfe , M. Hardinge , bothe in this selfe same place , and in this selfe same storie , and in the reporte of one poore note , haue committed foure , foule , and grosse errours , with one breathe , altogeather . You your selfe , I saie , M. Hardinge : I speake of none other , but of your selfe . If ye thinke , the beames of your knowledge shine so cleare , that it can neuer be ouercaste with clowde of erroure , then , I beseche you , consider wel your Note specially marked in your Margine . Folio . 186. a. Thus ye directe vs to the Authour of your Storie : Sabellicus Decadis 2. li. 1. 1220. In this one litle shorte note , I saie , ye haue sente vs foure errours . For firste , Decades . euery childe knoweth , that Sabellicus neuer wrote Decades , but onely Enneades . And therefore , if I were not better acquainted with your Learninge , I might seeme to haue iuste cause to saie , either yee neuer sawe Sabellicus Bookes , or els yee neuer readde them . I wil not here keepe an Audite , as you doo , nor saie , as you saie , Seconde Decade . This is one lie . Further ye saie , it is written in the Seconde Decade : But Sabellicus the Authoure him selfe saith . Franciscus Dandalus . Firste Booke . It is written in the nienth Enneade . I wil not saie , as you saie , There be twoo Lies . Againe you saie , It is in the Firste Booke : But Sabellicus him selfe saithe , It is in the Seuenthe Booke . Yet wil not I folowe you , nor saie , There be three Lies . For a surplussage , and more likelihoode of your tale , Anno Do. 1220. ye note also the yeere of our Lorde 1220. with as good discretion , as the reste . For at that time , neither Pope Clemens , nor Francise Dandalus was yet borne . For this thinge happened , as it moste plainely appeareth by al stories , aboute the yéere of our Lorde 1310. Al this notwithstandinge , I wil not hunte so gréedily for aduantages , nor saie , as you saie , There is the Foruthe Lie . Neither wil I saie , as you saie , not withstandinge somme man perhaps might happen to saie it , M. Hardinge the Defender hereof , is either an Vnhoneste man , or paste shame , or a Lier , or a foole .

These woordes of yours , M. Hardinge , are neither mannerly , nor manly : notwithstandinge they séeme wel to contente your pleasante humoure . S. Hierome saithe , Hierony . Aduersus error . Iohan. Hierosolymit . Non aequè inimici audiunt , & amici . Qui inimicus est , etiam in scirpo nodum quaerit : An Enimie , and a Frende heare not bothe of one sorte . An Enimie wil ( cauil , and quarrel , and ) seeke a knotte in a russhe . The Substance of Goddes Religion standeth not in the reportinge of a storie . S. Hierome saithe of sutche Captious quarrellers : Audiant à me , non periclitari Ecclesiarum statum , si ego celeritate dictandi verba aliqua dimiserim : Hierony . De optimo genere interpretandi Let them vnderstande , that al be it I in haste of penninge haue let escape a woorde , or twoo , yet that shal not hazarde the state of the Churche of God .

But Francise Dandalus , ye saie , was not at that time Duke of Venice : He him selfe tied the chaine aboute his owne necke : Not Duke . He came of his owne accorde vpon al foure , as if he had benne a Dogge , and laie downe willingly vnder the Popes Table : He laie not there to gnawe boanes : He founde no Dogge there to lie with him . Therefore , ye saie , this Defender is an Vnhoneste man , paste al shame , a Lier , and a foole . Sutche Cholerique Conclusions , M. Hardinge , maie wel beseeme a Doctoure of your Diuinitie .

Howe be it , the faireste coloure , ye can laie vpon the matter , is this , That the Embassadoure of that Noble Common Weale of Venice , laie as a Dogge , in a chaine , vnderneathe the Popes Table , as you saie , and that , willingly , and with al his harte , by sutche Submission to appease the Popes ●ighe indignation , and to recouer his fauoure towardes his Countrie . It séemeth , he was either a very Arrogante man , or a marueilous angrie Pope , that woulde by none other Submission be reconciled .

But Dandalus at that time was not Duke . Neither was it so harde a mater to knowe that , M. Hardinge : nor was it so greate an Heresie to cal him Duke , for that shortely after he was made Duke . August . De Consensu Euangelist . Lib. 2. Cap. 17. S. Augustine saithe , Dicimus , Apostolum Paulum in Tharso Ciliciae natum . At ille tunc iam non erat Apostolus . Ita cùm audimus , Discipulos Christi inuitatos ad nuptias , non iam Discipulos , sed qui futuri erant Discipuli , intelligere debemus : Wee saie , that Paule the Apostle was borne at Tharsus in Cilicia . And yet Paule at that time , when he was borne , was no Apostle . Euen so , Iohan. 2. when wee heare , that Christes Disciples were bidden to the Mariage Feaste at Cana in Galilee , wee muste vnderstande , that they were not then his Disciples , but became afterwarde his Disciples .

So S. Hierome calleth Pamphilus a Martyr : and yet at that time , whereof he meante , Hierony . De Errorib Origenis . Pamphilus in deede was no Martyr . Therefore he saith , Concedamus , vt Pamphili sit , sed nondum Martyris . Antè enim scripsit , quàm Martyrium perpeteretur : Let vs graunte , it was Pamphilus Booke : but that Pamphilus as yet was no Martyr . For he wrote his Booke firste , and was Martyr afterwarde . Likewise againe he saithe , Hierony in Ezechielem . Lib. 9. Cap. 30. Nos pro , No , Alexandriam posuimus per Anticipationem , quae Graecè 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 appellatur : Wee in steede of the Cittie , No , haue translated it , the Cittie Alexandria , Franciscus Dandalus . by a Figure called Anticipation : For that the Cittie , whiche before was called , No , was afterwarde called Alexandria .

So S. Augustine saithe , Genes. 35. Augu. in quaest. super Genesim , Quaest. 117. It is written in the Booke of Genesis : Hi sunt Filij Israel , qui nati sunt ei in Mesoporamia : cùm Beniamin longè posteà natus sit , cùm iam transissent Bethel , & appropinquarent Bethleem : These be the Children of Israel , that were borne to him in Mesopotamia : And yet Beniamin ( that there is reckened for one of his Children ) was borne ( not in Mesopotamia , but ) longe afterwarde , when they were now paste Bethel , and drew ? towardes Bethleem , that is in Iewrie . Yet bath there benne no man hitherto so vncourteous , that euer woulde vse your eloquence , M. Hardinge , and calle either Moses , or S. Augustine , or S. Hierome , Fooles , or Liers .

If ye woulde but indifferently haue weighed the mater , ye might wel haue thought , wée called Dandalus Duke of Venice , for that he was soone afterwarde chosen Duke of Venice .

So wée maie saie , Doctoure Hardinge fréely , and fully professed the Gospel , & preached vehemently againste the Pope . Neuerthelesse , when he thus preached , he was not yet knowen by the name of a Doctoure .

Let vs graunte , there was somme erroure in the reporte of this storie . Yet muste euery man be condemned for a Foole , and a Lier , that maie be taken in like Erroure ? If so , then wil M. Hardinge trouble his Godfathers , and cause them to geue him a newe name .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Matth. 2. Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 2. Clemens Stromat . 1. There were twelue Magi , or Wisemenne , that came to Christe : And yet ye holde commonly , they were but three . Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , Christe preached but one yeere : yet others saie , he preached three yeeres : others saie , he preached foure . Somme saie , Christe was three and thirtie yéeres olde , somme saie , he was foure and thirtie , when he suffered . Yet Tertullian saithe , Tertul. Contra Iud. cos . Irenaeus Lib. 2. he was Onely thirtie yeeres olde : Irenaeus saithe , He was more then fourtie . Christe saithe , My Father is hable to geue me twelue Legions of Angels : S. Hilarie , in the reporte thereof , a greate deale auanceth the number , Cap. 34. & 40. Matth. 26. Hilarius in Psalm. 54. and reckeneth duodecim Millia Legionum , twelue Thousande Legions . Your owne Blessed Donation of Constantine , whiche , ye saie , so mutche irketh vs , commaundeth the Patriarke of Constantinople to be subiecte , and obediente to the Bishop of Rome : And yet at that time , when , by your imagination , this Fable was diuised , Donatio Constantini . there was neither Patriarke , nor Churche in Constantinople , nor any Cittie as yet builte , and knowen by that name . Your Folowe Dorman allegeth ful solemnely the seuenth Booke of Theodoretus : Dorman , Fol. 22. And yet Theodoretus him selfe neuer wrote but onely ●iue . And so be leapte twoo whole Bookes beyonde his Authoure . Dorman , Fol. 24. And againe he telleth vs a proper tale , of the terrible Examples of twoo kinges , Ozias , and Oza : And yet bothe he , and his Felowes might soone haue learned , that Oza was onely a poore Leuite , and no Kinge .

You your selfe , M. Hardinge , Fol. 308. b. M. Hardinge , in this selfe same Booke saie , that the Councel of Nice was keapte in the time of Pope Syluester : And yet Athanasius , that then was presente at the same Councel , Athanasi . in Apolog. M. Hardinge , Fol. 309. a. saithe , Syluester at that time was not aliue : but that the Councel was summoned by the Emperoure , and holden in the time of Pope Iulius . Againe you saie , that at the very same time while the Councel was holden at Nice , Pope Syluester helde likewise a Councel in Rome : And so , by the Iudgemente of Athanasius , ye saie , that Pope Syluester helde a Councel after he was deade .

And muste al these , and other your like tales , M. Hardinge , passe vnder the name of Lies , and Folies ?

This Gentleman , ye saie , was not so faste bounde as wee imagine : but fel down meekely , and Willingly of himselfe . willingly . No doubte , M. Hardinge , who so knoweth an Italian courage , wil soone beleue that Francise Dandalus , a Gentleman of sutche Nobilitie , and the Embassadoure of so Noble a Common Wealthe , was soone , and easily , and willingly woonne , to comme créeping with a yron chaine on his necke , and to wallow vnder the Popes Table , as a Dogge , to his owne immortal shame , and to the Euerlastinge dishonoure of his Countrie . Verily he woulde neuer haue yéelded him selfe to sutche Villanie , had it not benne to auoide somme other greatter villanie . For , I beséeche you , whether is it more crueltie , for you to renne vpon a poore man with swerde drawen , and to strike him through , and so to kille him : or els to force him to laie cruel handes vpon his owne body , and to kille him selfe ? S. Chrysostome saith , A poore man oftentimes is contente to woounde , or feaster his owne fleashe , to the ende , to mooue the riche man to somme pitie : Alij Capiti suo clauos acutos infigunt : alij per ipsum gelu nudo Corpore mendicantes petunt : Chrysostom . in 1. Corin. Homil. 21. Alij hisce etiam grauiora ferentes , miserabile de se praebent spectaculum . At dices , Nos illorum Capita non configimus . Vtinam verò tu configeres . Non enim tam grauis fuisset calamitas . Nam qui alium interimit , longè leuiùs peccat , quàm is qui iubet aliquem seipsum interficere : Somme there be , that sticke nayles in theire owne heades : Somme other goe begginge with naked bodies in the colde froste : Somme others suffer other thinges of greatter crueltie , and shewe them selues miserable to behold . But thou wilt saie , we sticke not these nailes in theire heades . Woulde God , thou stickedst them in . For then theire miserie were not so greeuous . For he , that with his owne hand killeth an other , committeth a greate deale lesse faulte , then he that forceth a man to kil him selfe .

So , saie wée , it was far greatter gréefe vnto that Noble Gentleman , so vilely to dishonoure , and abase him selfe , then if he had benne driuen thereto through the force and violence of his enimie . In this sorte was the Emperoure Henrie the fourthe wel contente , Vrspergen , Sabellicus Ennead . 9. Lib. 3. willingly to waite vpon Pope Hildebrande at Canusium , and three daies togeather to stande batcheaded , and barefoote in the harde froste at his gate , & as one saith , to be a gastinge stocke bothe to menne , and Angels , before he might haue licence to comme neare . So was the Emperoure Frederichus Aenobarbus contented , willingely to laie his necke vnder the Popes foote : as wee shal declare more hereafter . Beno Cardinalis So was the poore Gentlewoman contente , to caste a halter aboute her owne Sonnes necke , and so to presente him before Pope Hildebrand , whom he had offended , by sutche humble Subiection to craue his pardon . In respecte wereof the Pope pardoned him his life : but commaunded his foote to be striken of : of whiche woounde the poore yonge Gentleman soone after died .

Ye saie , It is a lie , that Francise Dandalus , so Noble a Gentleman was driuen to gnawe boanes . Gnawe boanes . I thinke it wel , M. Hardinge : and therefore we wil rather saie , He laie there togeather vp the crummes , that fel from his Lordes Table .

But vnder the Popes table , No Dogges vnder the Popes Table . ye saie , there were no Dogges . And this , ye saie , is an other lie . Notwithstanding , this Negatiue were very harde for you to proue . How be it , hereat I wil not greatly striue . And yet had it benne a more séemely sight , in my iudgemente , to sée a Dogge lieinge there , then a man , and specially a Noble Gentleman , the Embassadoure of so Noble a Cittie .

To conclude , this was the same Pope Clemens the fifthe , that thus pronounced of him selfe , and proclaimed the same vnto the whole worlde by a Lawe : Nos superioritatem habemus ad Imperium : Nos , vacante Imperio , Imperatori succedimus : Wee haue the Soueraintie ouer the Empiere : Clem. Lib. 2. De Senten . & re iudica . Cap. 2. The Empiere beinge voide , we are heires apparente to the Emperoure . The Venetians had geuen aide , to restoare one Friscus a bannished man vnto the Dukedome of Ferrara . Therefore Pope Clemens interdited them , and al that they had , and further signified his pleasure vnto al the worlde , that whither so euer they , or any of them came , it shoulde be lawful for any man , not onely to take theire bodies , and to selle them for slaues , & to spoile theire goodes , but also to kille them , whether it were by right , or by wrong . For so Sabellicus writeth , Sabellicus Ennead . 9. Lib. 7. Vt eos fas esset vnicuique , iure , & iniuria interficere . This was the cause of al this greate a doo . And this highe indignation has neuer benne slaked , had not so Noble a personage abased him selfe , to be tied by the necke in a chaine , and to créepe vnder the Popes Table , vpon al foure , like a Dogge .

Laste of al , where it liketh you , in the ende to refreashe your wittes with this Defenders thinne chéekes , and blusshinge : verily , M. Hardinge , he blussheth in deede , and is mutche ashamed in your behalfe , to sée your folies . God geue you Grace , that you maie blusshe at your misusing of Goddes people : lesse ye haue that face , that the Prophete saith , is paste blusshing . I trust , this Defender shal neuer blusshe to saie , Rom. 1. Hierony . Aduersus Pelagianos , Lib. 1. either with S. Paule , Non pudet me Euangelij Christi : Est enim virtus Dei ad Salutem : I am not ashamed of the Gospel of Christe : For it is the Power of God vnto Saluation : Or with S. Hierome , Non me pudet nescire , quod nescio : I am not ashamed , in that thinge , that I knowe not , to graunte mine ignorance .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 5.

Who set the Emperial Crowne vpon the Emeroure Henry the si●thes heade , not with his hande , but with his foote : and with the same foote againe caste the same Crowne of , saieinge withal , Hee had Power to make Emperours , and to vnmake them againe at his pleasure ▪

M. Hardinge .

We denie , that Celestinus , whom you note in your bokes margent , or any other Pope did this . * * Vntruthe . For the stories be plaine . Reade the Answeare . It is a varne fable deuised rather of malice , then witte . Ye should haue done wel to shew vs , with which foo●e the Pope did set on the Crowne vpon Henr●es heade , the rigit , or the lefte , standinge , sittinge , leninge , or lieinge , barefooted , and vsinge the healpe of his greate toe ▪ or shodde : whether he had some iymme iamme made for him to take it vp , holde it , and put it on handsomly , or conueied it on by a vice , or howe it was donne .

The B. of Sarisburie .

What nimblenesse , or cunninge the Pope hath in his féete , more then other menne , I haue not hearde . What other sleightes he hath nowe , or hath had in times paste to woorke sutche feates , it behoueth his Magister Ceremoniarum to consider . The storie is recorded by Ranulphus , Rogerus Cestrensis , and Rogerus Houedenus , that liued at the same time .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 6.

Who put in armes Henrie the Sonne againste the Emperoure his Father Henrie the Fourthe , and wrought so , that the Father was taken prisoner of his owne Sonne , and beinge shorne , and shamefully handeled , was thruste into a Monasterie , where with hunger , and sorowe he pined awaie to deathe .

M. Hardinge .

‡ ‡ Vntruthe , easily reproued by good Recordes . It was not the Pope , that armed Henry the seconde againste Henry the fourthe , who by th●●● compte of some is Henry the thirde . ●●ories declare other causes of theire fallinge out , and the more parte of the writers impute it to the iudgemente of God , for punishement of his greate wickednes . After that he was ouercome with al his power by the Saxons , Henricus Impera . 4. Henricus Impera . 5. in seuentin daies he durste not to appeare abroade . In the meane time his sonne tooke vpon him foorthwith the administration of the Empiere , went into Italie with an armie ▪ would not surrender the state which he liked wel , his father beinge therewith offended he tooke prisoner , * * Manifeste Vntruthe . See the Answeare . without any motion of the Pope , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For this was not the cause . But the Pope woulde haue geuen the same him selfe . with whom he was also at variance , and committed him to straight custody .

Concerninge Gregorie the seuenth Pope , who before was called Hildebrandus , whom that Emperoure with endles malice persecuted , because he would ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For then he was at no variance with the Pope . not ratifie his Simoniacal makinge of Bishops , and geuing of Ecclesiastical benefices , and defended the Church against his wicked attemptes : biside sundrie writers of Histories in that time , as Lambertus Schafnaburgensis , Leo Hostiensis , and afterwarde , Otho Frisingensis , who so mutche commend him for sundrie excellent vertues : no man hath so largely and so diligently set foorthe his worthines , as * * This Ancient Doctour is yet aliue , and writeth woorthily for his hiere . Onuphr●us Panuinius , who hath written of him fiue Bookes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée maie easily beléeue you , M. Hardinge , that the Pope armed not Henrie the Seconde , as you saie , againste his Father Henrie the Fourth . It had benne a marueilous Monster in Nature , that the Fourth should goe before the Seconde : or that the Neuewe should be borne before his Grandfather . But that the Pope raised vp Henrie the Fifth against Henrie the Fourth , that is to saie , the Sonne againste the Father , that ye might haue easily founde in your owne Recordes .

Gregorius Heimbur● 〈…〉 thus , Gregor. Heimburgen . Paschalis Papa Principes contra Henricum 4. concitauit : imò 〈◊〉 ●roprium Filium : quem etiam contra Patrem fecit per multos Episcopos Rhem●●●egē Coronari , & vocari Henricum Quintum . Pope Paschalis raised vp the Princes of Germanie againste Henrie the Fourthe : nai rather he raised vp his owne Sonne : whom also he caused by many Bishoppes adioining to the Rhiene , to be crowned Emperoure againste his owne Father , and to be called Henrie the Fifthe .

The case beinge cleare , this one Authoritie maie stand in stéede of many . Hereof Henrie the Father pitieously complaineth in his Letters written to the French Kinge . Carion An. 1103. Carion saithe , Hunc Henricum Filium solicitarunt Episcopi , vt aduersus Patrem insurgeret , eumque Imperio pelleret : The Bishoppes entised this yonge Gentilman , Henrie the Sonne , that he shoulde rise against his Father , and put him from the Empiere . Vrspergen . Anno . 1105. But these Bishoppes , as Vrspergensis saithe , were Responsales Paschalis Papae , Pope Paschalis Agentes , or dooers in those Countries . And Henrie the Sonne him selfe , when he stoode in the fielde , neuer pretended any other coloure againste his Father , but onely the obedience of the Sée of Rome .

And , leste any man shoulde doubte of the Truthe hereof , the Pope , not longe before , had likewise raised vp Rodolphus the Duke of Sueuia againste the same Emperoure Henrie the Fourth : Vrspergen . eod. loco , Pag. 257. and , the better to encourrage his Ambitious heade , and to traine him to his pourpose , had sent him a Crowne with this Poisée :

Petra dedit Petro , Petrus Diadema Rodolpho .

Whereby he meante , Carion . that , as Christe had geuen the state , and right of the Empiere vnto the Pope , so would the Pope now bestowe the same vpon Rodolphus . Likewise he had written to the Princes of Germanie , as Carion saithe , Vt Imperatorem alium designarent : That they shoulde procede to the Election of an other Emperoure . Thus the Pope thought it but a plaie , to place , & displace the States of the world , at his pleasure . Of this Emperours Vertues I wil saie nothinge . As he is despraised by somme , Auentinus . so by others he is mutche commended : Auentinus saith , In Pauperes , Monachos , Sacerdotes munificentissimum , &c. His very enimies confesse , that he was moste Liberal vnto poore folkes , Monkes , and Priestes : that he was Constant in aduersitie : Faithful to his Prisoners : Gentle to his foes : Deuoute towardes God : wise and Politique in Ciuile , and Martial affaires : of a Princely Maiestie of counenance : wherein he excelled al others , and was moste woorthy of the Empiere .

Vrspergensis saithe , He was Noble , doughty , and Venterous : & was séene thrée score and twoo sundrie times in fought fielde : Vrspergen . Pag. 239. wherein he passed bothe Marcellus , and Iulius Caesar , & al other Kinges , and Emperours , that had benne before him .

The greatteste cause of falling out bitwéene him and the Pope was this : Carion Order was taken before , and had stil benne keapte from the beginninge , that the Election of the Pope should be ratified by the Emperoure , otherwise not to stand . And Platyna saith , Platyna in Seuero Papa . The Pope Elected without the Emperours letters patentes was no Pope . An other Aunciente order was this , that the Emperoure might bestowe al the Bishoprikes , and Abbles of the Empiere , when so euer they should happen to be voide . These Ancient Orders Pope Hildebrand presumed to breake . For neither would he suffer his owne Election to be ratified by the Emperoure : nor the Emperoure to bestow the Bishoprikes , or Abbies within his dominions . In these attemptes the Emperoure withstoode him , claiminge vnto him selfe the same right of enheritance , that al other Emperours his Predecessours had lawfully , and peaceably enioied before him . Therefore the Pope Excommunicated him : interdited his Lande : Vrspergen . Pag. 264. & called him Archepirate , Archeheretique , and Apostata : Therefore he deposed him : raised vp the Duke of Sueuia , and al the worlde againste him : and armed the Sonne againste the Father : and wilfully disquieted the whole State of al Christendome . Auentinus . Auentinus saithe , Multi tum priuatim , tum pub licè , &c. Many there were , that bothe priuately , and openly cursed Pope Hildebrande : and saide , that with his hatred , and ambition he troubled the worlde : and that vnder the coloure of Christe , he wrought the seates of Antichriste .

The Emperoure tooke a longe iourney into Italie to submit him selfe vnto the Pope : Vrspergen . Pag. 235. Sabellicus Enneadis . 9. Lib. 3. Carion . Helmoldus . and beinge at Canusium , as it is saide before , in the deapthe of winter , and In the harde froste , he waited patiently thrée daies togeather with bare heade , and bare foote before the Popes gates , to winne his fauoure . In the end Pope Hildebrande beinge sicke , and findinge him selfe in case not to liue , sente vnto the Emperoure , and besoughte him Pardonne for al his Iniuries . After that , the Popes , that succeded , neuerthelesse continewed this quarrel stil . And thus by the Popes entisemente , The Sonne raised a power , and deposed his Father : The Bishoppes discobed him of his wéede of State : & pulled the Crowne Emperial from his head . The Auncient Reuerende Prince , hauing nowe continewed in his Empiere fiftie whole yeeres , bare al these thinges quietly , and saide vnto them , Videat Deus , & iudicet : Let God see , and Judge your dooings . At the laste , beinge leaste naked , and out of al , he turned him selfe to the Bishop of Spira , and saide vnto him : Nowe I beseeche you , for Goddes sake , geue me a prebeude in your Churche . For I am hable to reade , Matth. Palmer . and can doo somme good in the quiere . But he was keapte stil in close prison at Leodium , vntil he died . And beinge deade , he was keapte fiue whole yeeres togeather aboue grounde , at the Popes Commaundemente , & might not be buried : Sutche courtesie founde that woorthy Emperoure at the Popes hande , onely for claiminge of his right .

Pope Hildebrande is commended by many for sundrie vertues . But no man , saie you , hathe more set foorth his woorthinesse , then Onuphrius , a man yet aliue , and one of al menne , that would be right lothe in any pointe to displease the Pope . Perhaps he thought to winne somme credite , by aduenturinge his wittes in a desperate cause : as did he , Synesius . Plato . that bestowed so mutche eloquence in the praise of Baldenesse : or he , that praised the Feuer quartane : or Erasmus , that of late yeeres wrote so mutche in the praise of Folie .

The Heretique Ebion sommetime praised Iudas aboue al the Apostles : Pope Hildebrande . And Libanius the Sophiste bestowed great praises vpon Iulianus the Renegate . Socrat. Lib. 3. Cap. 22. Certainely sundrie Olde Writers , of whom somme knewe Pope Hildebrande , and liued with him , Beno Cardinalis haue not géeuen him sutche woorthy praises . Beno Cardinalis saith , Hildebrande , being as yet but a Cardinal , beatte Pope Alexander with his fist , and keapte him prisoner : Poisoned sixe Popes : Was a Coniurer , and raised vp Diuels : and threwe the Sacramente into the Fiere .

Auentinus , Auentinus . makinge his entrie to speake of Pope Hildebrande , saithe thus , Scripturus sum Reipublicae Christianae , Occidentalisque Ecclesiae , Romanique Imperij Bella , Caedes , Homicidia , Parricidia , Simultates , Odia , Stupra , Furta , Peculatus , Sacrilegia , Dissidia , Seditiones plusquam Ciuiles , &c. Nowe muste I speake of Warres , Slaughters , Murders , killing of Fathers , Striues , Hatreads , Fornications , Robberies , Spoilinges of Common treasure , Spoilinges of Churches , Debates , and Seditions more then ciuile , whiche haue happened in the Christian Common Weale , in the Weaste Churche , and in the Empiere of Rome .

The Bishoppes at the Councel of Brixia in Germanie , Vrspergen . touching Pope Hildebrande , pronounce thus : Nos eundem Hildebrandum procacissimum , &c. The same most Filthy and shamelesse Pope Hildebrande , a mainteiner of Churchrobbinges , and housburninges , a defender of Murders , and Periuries , callinge in question the Catholique , and the Apostolique Faith of the Body and Bloude of Christe , an Olde Disciple of Berengarius the Heretique , a Manifeste Coniurer , loden with the Sprite of Satan , and therefore out of the trewe Faith , we Judge woorthy to be deposed . What so euer pointes of dis●ant Onuphrius , your Scholefelowe , hath lately learned to plaie , this , M. Hardinge , is that Holinesse , and Woorthinesse , that sundrie Olde Writers haue iudged to be in Pope Hildebrande .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 1.

Who , so ilfauouredly , and monstrously put the Emperoure Frederikes necke vnder his feete , and , as though that were not sufficiente , added further this texte out of the Psalmes : Thou shalt goe vpon the Adder , and cockatrice , and shalt treade the Lion and Dragon vnder thy feete ? Sutche an Example of scorninge & contemninge the Maiestie of a Prince , as neuer before the time was hearde telle of in any remembrance : excepte , I weene , either of Tamerlanes the King of Scythia , a wilde and a Barbarous Creature , or els of Sapor Kinge of the Persians . Al these notwithstanding were Popes , al Peters Successours , al most Holy Fathers : whose seueral wordes wee muste take to be as good , as seueral Gosples .

M. Hardinge .

Ye aske who put the Emperoure Frederikes necke vnder his feete , &c. Verily , who it was , I knowe not : neither your selues , I beleue .

But what if ye bringe good authoritie for it ? So farre as any man doth euil , be he Pope , be he Bishop , Emperour , or King , or what so euer he be , we defende him not . Popes them selues be men , and do not at ‡ ‡ As though for the moste parte they liued like Angelles . al times behaue them selues like Angels . But what is that to your purpose ? Our matter is quaestio iuris , non facti , In praescriptio . Contra Haeret. once more I muste tel it you . And if that were a faulte in the Pope , we acknoweledge it to be as Tertullian saithe , Vitium conuersationis , non predicationis : The faulte of conuersation , not of doctrine * * What faulte can ye finde in the Popes preachinge ? He neuer preacheth . preached .

Al these ( though ye scoffe neuer so muche ) were Popes , Treadinge on the Emperours necke . al were Peters successours , and no withstandinge any thinge that ye can saie against them to the contrary , without makinge a lie , * * Vntruthe shamelesse , as it shal appeare . al were holy Fathers . But theire seueral woordes we be not bounde to esteme for so good as seueral Gospels . Neuer the lesse theire publike decrees we acknowledge and reuerence , and thinke they ought to be obeied .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The whole storie hereof is thus reported by Carion : Carion Vsus est Frederichus deiectione , & summa humilitate , &c. The Emperour Frederike vsed al manner submissio , and Humilitie . For he came to Venice , and at the gates of the Churche , fallinge downe grouelinge before the Pope , he suffered him selfe to be trodden on by the Pope with his Feete . In the meane while the Pope caused Proclamation to be made by these woordes of the Prophete Dauid , spoken of Christe , Thou shalt walke vpon the venemous Aspe , and the Basiliske : Thou shalt treade downe the Lion and Dragon : And so at the laste he Absolued him . Non tibi , sed Petro. Et mihi , & Petro . The Emperoure in the meane while saide , he shewed that humilitie , not vnto Pope Alexander , but vnto Peter . Thereunto the Pope answeared , Et mihi , & Petro : Bothe to me , and to Peter too : placinge him selfe before Peter .

Thus Carion declareth the whole storie with somme particulare Circumstances : but whether of fauoure , or hatred , I wil not Iudge . Neither maie it wel be thought , the Pope vsed the Emperoure thus of any greate fauoure . But I thinke , that the Noble Cittie of Venice , that caused this whole Tragedie to be set foorthe in Imagerie in S. Markes Churche there , for the Euerlastinge remembrance of the facte , was not so carried awaie either with loue of the one side , or with hatred of the other , that they woulde so openly haue recorded a knowen Vntruthe .

Thus Sapores sommetime , Aurelius Victor . Pomponius Letus . the proude Kinge of Persia , when he had conquered Valerianus the Romaine Emperoure , and taken him prisoner , vsed him afterwarde moste villanously , as his footestocke : and made him lie downe grouelinge vpon the grounde , that he might set his foote on his necke , when so euer it shoulde please him to mounte on horsbacke .

So Sesostris the greate Kinge of Egypte , yokte Kinges , Budaeus de Asse . Matthias à Michouia , De Sarmatia , Cap. 12. and Princes togeather in Chaines , and forced them by violence , to drawe his Wagon . So the Emperour Henrie the Thirde , vpon the daie of his Coronation , caused Foure Kinges of Vindelicia , beinge then his prisoners , to carrie Pannes , and Cauldrons to his kitchin .

But ye saie , So far , as a man dooth euil , be he Pope , be he Bishop , ye defende him not . The Popes themselues , ye saie , be menne : and doo not alwaies behaue themselues , as Angels . Yet notwithstandinge , immediately after ye saie further , Al these were Popes , and Peters Successours , and Holy Fathers . This beinge true , it is no harde mater , for any Pope to be Holy . Platyna . Textor in Officina . Platyna . Platyna in Syluestro 3. Constantien . Concilium . Pope Iohn 12. was slaine in Aduouterie : Pope Benedictus 9. liued without either Lawe , or Reason , and defiled Peters Chaire , with al kinde of shame . Sine Lege , & Ratione vixit , & Petri Sedem omnibus probris foedauit . And in the ende he tooke mon●e yenoughe , and solde the Popedome . Platyna saithe , Popes then were elected , not for theire Learninge , and Holinesse , but in respecte of Monie , and frendship . The Bishoppes in the Councel of Constance pronounce thus of Pope Iohn . 23. A tempore iuuentutis suae fuit homo malae indolis , inuerecundus , impudicus , &c. Et adhuc dicitur , tenetur , creditur , & reputatur pro tali , & vt talis : From the time of his youth he hath euermore benne a man of il disposition , vnshamefaste , vnchaste , vnhoneste , &c. And stilhitherto he is named , holden , beleeued , taken , and reputed for sutche a one , The Pope is euer Holy . and as sutche a one . Somme of them haue liued filthily with theire owne daughters , and somme woorse , and in more beastly disorder . Platyna calleth them Monstra , & Portenta , Monsters , and ougle , and horrible , and il shapen Creatures . Yet , saie you , al these were Peters Successours , and Holy Fathers . And so muste they néedes be coumpted , although they had benne a great deale woorse . Dame Iohane , I trowe , ye wil haue foreprised out of this number . For notwithstandinge shée were a Holy Mother , yet ye maie not wel calle her the Holy Father .

In déede , De Maior . & Obedien. Vnam . Sanctam . In Glossa . thus ye haue it prouidentely noted vpon your Decre talles : Est quaedam Spiritualitas secundum statum , quando est in statu Sanctissimo , & Spiritualissimo : & in hoc statu est Solus Summus Pontifex : There is a certaine Spiritual Holinesse according to the state moste Holy , and moste Spiritual : and in this state is onely the Highest Bishop , that is , the Pope . And a Special Statute of premunire in the Popes behalfe is written thus : Papa de Homicidio , Dist 40. Non no : In Glossa . vel Adulterio , accusari non potest . Vnde Sacrilegij instar esset , disputare de facto suo . Nam facta Papae excusantur , vt Homicidia Samsonis , Furta Hebraeorum , Adulteria Iacob : The Pope maie neuer be accused , neither of Aduouterie , nor of Murther . Therefore it were as badde , as Churcherobbinge , to reason , or moue mater of any his dooinges . For what so euer he doo , it is excused , as are the Murthers committed by Samson : the Robberies in Egypte by the Jewes : and y● Aduouteries of Iacob . And againe , Dist. 40. Non no : In Papa si defint bona acquisita per meritum , sufficiunt quae à loci praedecessore praestantut . In the Pope if there want good deedes gotten by his own inerites . yet the good deedes donne by S. Peter , that was his Predecessoure in that place , are sufficiente .

But S. Hierome saithe far otherwise : Diff. 40. Non est facile . Non Sanctorum Filij sunt , qui tenent loca Sanctorum , Sed qui exercent opera eorum : They are not alwaies the children of Holy menne , that fitte in the places of Holy menne : but they , that doo the woorkes of Holy menne .

Therefore I maie saie to you , M. Harding , as S. Augustine saith to Emeritus the Heretique : Noli Frater , Augustin . Epist. 164. ad Emeritum . noli obsecro : non te decet , eisi aliquem fortè deceat : si tamen quicquam deceat malos : Emeritum certè non decet defendere Optatum : Doo not , my Brother , doo not , I praie you . It be commeth you not : Although happily it maie becomme somme other man : If any thing maie becomme the wicked : Yet verily it becommeth not Emeritus , to defende Optatus ( in open wickenesse ) .

S. Hierome saith , Hieron . in Epist. ad Philemonein . Si quis hominem , qui Sanctus non est , Sanctum esse crediderit , & Dei eum iunxerit socierari , Christum violat , cuius Corporis omnes membra sumus . Qui dicit , inquit , Iustum Iniustum , & Iniustum Iustum , abominabilis est vterque apud Deum . Et rursus , qui dicit , Sanctum non esse Sanctum : & rursus , non Sanctum esse Sanctum , Prouerb . 17. est abominabilis apud Deum : Who so beleeuèth , that man to be Holy , that is not Holy , and ioineth the same man to the felowship of God , dooth villanie to Christe . For al we are members of his Body . It is written , Bothe he that calleth a Iuste man Wicked , and he that calleth a Wicked man Iuste , are bothe abominable before God . Likewise who so saith , a Holy man is not Holy : or , An Vnholy man is Holy , is abominable before God .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 2. & 3.

Yf we be counted Traitours , whiche doo honoure our Princes , which geue them al obedience , as mutche as is due to them by Gods woorde , and doo praie for them : what kinde of men then bee these , whiche haue not onely donne al the thinges before saide , but also allowe the same for specially wel donne ? Doo they then either this waie instructe the people , as wee doo , to reuerence theire Magistrate ? or can thei with honestie appeach vs as seditious personnes , breakers of the common quiete , and despisers of Princes Maiestie ?

Truely we neither put of the yoke of obedience from vs , neither doo we disorder Realmes : nor doo we set vp , or pulle downe Kinges : nor doo wee translate gouernementes : nor geeue wee our Kinges poison to drinke : nor yet holde foorth to them our feete to kisse : nor opprobriously triumphe ouer them : nor leape into theire neckes with our feete .

This rather is our Profession , this is our Doctrine , that euery soule , Chryso . in 13. ca. ad Romanos . of what callinge so euer it bee , bee it Monke , bee it Preacher , be it Prophete , be it Apostle , ought to be Subiecte to Kinges and Magistrates : yea , and that the Bishop of Rome him selfe , onlesse he wil seeme greater then the Euangelistes , then the Prophetes , or the Apostles , ought bothe to acknoweledge , and to cal the Emperour , his Lorde , and Maister : Gregor. saepè in Epist. as the Olde Bishoppes of Rome , who liued in times of more grace , euer did . Our common teachinge also is , that we ought so to obeie Princes , as menne sent of God : and , that who so withstandeth them , withstandeth Goddes ordinance . This is our Doctrine : & this is wel to be seene both in our Bookes , and Preachinges , and also in the manners and modeste behaueour of our people .

M. Hardinge .

The Doctrine of obedience apperteineth specially to subiectes . The Bishop of Rome sittinge by due succession in the chaire of Peter , * * Vntruthe Manifeste , as it shal appeare . in spiritual causes can haue no Superiour . In temporal matters it maie be , that in one age he hath acknowledged the Emperoure , as the Lorde of that prouince , where he liued . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe enclosed : For they were subiecte likewise afterwarde . as before Constantine al the Popes did liue in subiection : and in an other age he maie be Lorde thereof him selfe . Likewise S. Gregorie might cal Mauritius his Lorde , either of courtesie , or of custome : and yet our Holy Father Pius the fourth shal not be bounde to do the like , in * * O Graue Consideration . consideration that the custome hath longe sence ben discontinewed . Neither did S. Gregorie by that title of honour preiudicate vnto him selfe in any spiritual iurisdiction . For that name notwithstandinge , he gouerned the ‡ ‡ Vntruthe euidente vnto a childe . whole Churche , and complained that Maximus was made Bishop of Salonae a Cittie in Illyrico , without his Auctoritie , not regarding that Mauritius the Emperoure was thought to haue willed it so to be donne . Lib. 4. Epistol. 34. And therefore he writeth to Constantia the Empresse , that for as mutche as neither he , nor his depute was made priuie to it , that the thinge had benne donne , whiche neuer was donne before by any of the Princes , that were the Emperours Predecessours .

The B. of Sarisburie .

What néede you to speake so precisely , and so nicely of your Causes Spiritual , M. Harding ? Ye knowe , that your Pope hath claimed , and yet claimeth his Souerainetie , not onely in Spiritual Causes , but also in Temporal : as it shal appeare . He wil saie , ye are an il Proctoure , and doo him wronge , and goe aboute to abridge his right , that wil so lightly exclude that thinge , that he so gréedily wil haue included .

You saie , The Pope can haue no Superioure in Spiritual Causes . And yet by the Iudgement of sundrie your Doctours , euen in Causes Spiritual , the Councel is Superioure to the Pope , Concil. Constant . Concil. Basilien . Dist. 19. Anastasius . In Glossa . and maie summone him : and Iudge him : and geeue Sentence againste him : and depose him : As hereafter it shal be declared more at large . Thus is it noted of pourpose vpon your owne Decrees : Cùm agitur de Fide , tunc Synodus Maior est quàm Papa : When the case is mooued in a mater of Faithe , ( that is to saie , in a cause Spiritual ) then is the Councel greater then y● Pope . And your owne Panormitane saithe , The Pope inferioure to the Prince . as it is alleged before , Papa tenetur confiteri : & in illo actu Sacerdos est Maior illo : The Pope is bound to make his Confession : and in so dooinge , the Prieste is aboue the Pope . Againe he saithe , Papa non potest cogere Sacerdotem , Extra De ●oeniten . & Remiss . Omnis vtriusque . Abb. vt reuelet Confessionem : quia in illo actu Sacerdos est Maior , quàm Papa . Children knowe , that Faithe , and Confession are Spiritual Causes , and not Temporal . Ye sée therefore , M. Hardinge , by the Iudgemente of your owne Doctoures , that the Pope maie haue a Superioure , euen in Spiritual causes .

Nowe let vs weighe the greate force of your Reason . Thus you saie :

The Pope sitteth in Peters Chaire : Ergo , in Spiritual Causes he can haue no Superioure .

Who taught you thus to piece your Arguments ? What Childe , what Sophister woulde so reason ? Who euer gaue sutche Power , and Vertue to Peters Chaire ?

In Temporal maters , ye saie , it maie be , that in one age the Pope hath acknowledged the Emperoure , as Lorde of that Prouince , where he liued . Graceously considered . It was the Popes Courtesie , & Humilitie , no doubte : but not his duetie . Now be it , Aaron the Highe Bishop in Israel was contented to submit him selfe to Moses , and of duetie to calle him Lorde .

Tertullian saith thus , Exod 32. Tertullian . ad Scapulam . Colimus Imperatorem , vt hominem à Deo secundum , & Solo Deo Minorem . Sic enim Imperator Omnibus Maior est , dum Solo vero Deo Minor est : Wee honoure the Emperours Maiestie , as a man nexte vnto God . For so is the Emperoure greater then Al menne , while he is leasse then onely the True God .

Origen saithe , Petrus , Origen . ad Roman . Ca. 13. li. 9. & Iohannes nihil habebant , quod Caesari redderent . Dixit enim Petrus , Aurum , & Argenium non habeo . Qui hoc non habet , nec Caesari habet quod reddat , nec vnde Sublimioribus Potestatibus subiaceat . Qui verò habet Pecuniam , aut Possessiones , aut aliquid in hoc saeculo , audiat , Omnis anima Potestatibus Sublimioribus subiaceat : Peter , Actor . 3. and Iohn had nothing to geue vnto the Emperoure . For Peter saide , Golde , and Siluer I haue none : whiche who so hath not , hath nothing to geeue to Caesar , not wherein he shoulde be subiecte to the Higher Powers . But who so euer hath , either Monie , or Landes , or any thinge in this worlde , let him heare what S. Paule saith , Let euery soule submit it selfe to the Higher Powers .

And for proufe of the practise hereof , 2. q. 7. Nos si . Pope Leo thus submitteth him selfe humbly vnto Lewes the Emperoure : Nos , si incomperenter aliquid egimus , & in Subditis iustae Legis tramitem non conseruauimus , vestro admissorum nostrorum cuncta volumus emendare iudicio . If wee haue donne any thinge disorderly , and ouer our Subiectes haue not keapte the dewe trade , and course of Lawe , by your Maiesties Iudgemente we wil redresse al our faultes .

So likewise , long before Pope Leo , Pope Gregorie wrote vnto the Emperoure Mauritius : Gregor. Lib. 3. Epis. 61. ad Mau● ritium Impera . Ecce per me Seruum vltimum suum , & vestrum , respondebit Christus : Sacerdotes meos manui tuae commisi , &c. Ego quidem vestrae iussioni subiectus , Legem vestram per diuersas terrarum partes transmitti feci : Behold , thus wil Christe answeare you by me , beinge both his , and your most humble Seruante : I haue committed my Priestes vnto thy hand . As for my parte , I , being subiecte vnto youre Maiesties Commaundemente , haue caused your Order to be proclaimed through diuers partes of the worlde . Gregor. Lib. 3. Epist 64. Againe he saithe , Christus dominari Imperatorem , non solùm Militibus , sed etiam Sacerdotibus concessit : Christe hath geuen power vnto the Emperoure , to beare rule , not onely ouer souldiers , but also ouer Priestes .

Againe he saithe , Grego . ad Maurittum Impera . Et Imperatori obedientiam praebui : & pro Deo , quod sensi , minimè tacni : I haue shewed my duetie towardes my Lorde the Emperoure : and touchinge God , I haue not conceled , what I thought . And this is it , that S. Paule saithe , ●et euery soule be subiecte to the Higher Powers . Vpon whiche woordes S. Chrysostome saithe , The Pope inferioure to the Emperoure . Etiamsi sis Apostolus , etiamsi Euangelista , etiamsi Propheta , fiue quisquis tandem fueris . Neque enim Pietatem subuertit ista Subiectio : Thoughe thou be an Apostle , though thou be an Euangelist , though thou be a Prophete , or what one so euer els thou be , Chrysost. ad Roman . Homil. 23. yet be thou subiecte to the Heigher Powers . For this Subiection is no hinderance to Godlinesse .

But afterwarde the Popes beganne to looke alofte , & bothe to saie them selues , & also to cause others theire parasites to saie , Iohan. Maior . 4. Sent. q. 2. dist. 20. Sex . Lib. 3. Ti. 16 in Glossa . Romanus pontifex supra Reges in Temporalibus : The Bishop of Rome is aboue Kinges , euen in thinges Temporal . Againe , Papa totius orbis obtinet potestatem : The Pope hath the power of al the worlde . Againe , Solus Papa est verus Dominus Temporalium : Onely the Pope is the very true Lorde of Temporal thinges . Iohan. De Parisijs , de potestate Papae . And againe , Omnis potestes secularis immediatè data est Papae : Al manner Temporal Power is geuen immediately to the Pope .

Ye saie , Heruaeus de potesta . Pap. ca. 19. Pope Gregorie might cal the Emperoure Mauritius , his Lorde , ( not of deutie , but ) either of Custome , or of Courtesie . Yet , ( saie you further ) our holy Father Pope Pius the Fourth shal not now be bound to do the like . Here , I beseech you , M. Hardinge , What strange kinde of Spiritual Power hath Pope Pius nowe g●tten , that was not before in Pope Gregorie ? what Learninge ? what Vertue ? what Woorthinesse ? what Holynesse ? What good reason can ye allege , wherefore Christe , and his Apostles , and al other Holy Fathers , and Martyrs shoulde be Subiect● to the Prince , and onely your late Popes , and Cardinales shoulde stande so frèe ?

Ye saie , This Custome hath longe sithence benne discontinewed : And in one age the Pope maie acknowledge the Emperour , as the Lorde of the Land , where he dwelleth : and in an other age he maie be Lorde thereof him selfe . That is to saie , In one age the Pope maie be subiecte to the Emperoure : and in an other age the Emperoure maie be subiecte to the Pope . This is your whole , and onely reason . Thus , wée see , your obedience towardes your Prince goeth not by Goddes Woorde , but onely by Ages . Therefore wée maie saie to you , as S. Hilarie sommetime saide to y● Arian Heretiques , Fides temporum est , Hilarius ad Constantium Impera . Psal. 116. non Euangeliorum : Your Faithe passeth by Ages , and not by Gospels . And yet it is written , Veritas Domini manet in Aeternum : The Truth of our Lorde endureth ( not for one age , or other , but ) for Euer . It were a highe pointe of Learning for an Astronomer skilfully to Prognosticate , betwéene y● Emperour and the Pope , whether of them shoulde be Dominus Anni . How be it , here maie I wel and iustly answeare you with these woordes of S. Bernarde : Omnis anima potestatibus sublimioribus subdita sit . Bernar. Epist. 42. ad Archiepisco . Senonens . Si omnis , & vestra . Quis vos excepit ab vniuersitate ? Si quis tentat Excipere , conatur Decipere . Noli illorum acquiescere consilijs : qui cùm sint Christiani , Christi tamen vel sequi facta , vel obsequi dictis probro ducunt . Ipsi sunt , qui vobis dicere solent , Seruate vestrae Sedis honorem , &c. Estis vos vestro Praedecessore impotentior ? Si non crescit per vos , non decrescat per vos Hae illi . At Christus aliter iussit , & gessit . Reddite , inquit , quae sunt Caesaris , Caesari : & que sunt Dei , Deo : Let euery soule be subiecte to the Higher Powers . If euery soule , then is your soule subiecte , as wel as others . For ( notwithstanding your Dignitie ) yet who hath excepted you from this generalitie ? He that would excepte you from the Obedience of the Prince , seeketh to deceiue you . Geue no eare to theire Counselles . For , notwithstandinge they be Christians , yet they thinke it a shame , either to folow Christes deedes , or to obeie Christes Woordes . They vse to saie vnto you , ô sir , mainteine the honoure of your See , &c. Are not you so good , as youre Predecessoure ? If your See be not auaunced by you , yet let it not be abased by you . Thus saie they . But Christe hath bothe taught , and wrought far otherwise . For he saithe , Geeue to Caesar , that belongeth to Caesar : and geeue to God , that belongeth to God .

Likewise he saithe againe vnto Pope Eugenius , The Pope Limited to a parte . A te tamen Mosiste , vel potiùs Mors ista non coepit ? vtinam in te desinat . Vides omnem Ecclesiasticum zelum feruere sola pro Dignitate tuenda ? Bernar. De Consideratione , li. 4. Honori totum datur : Sanctitati nihil , vel parum . Si , causa requirente , paulò submissiùs agere , ac socialiùs te habere teniaueris , Absit , inquiunt : Non decet : Tempori non congruit : Maiestati non conuenit : Quam geras personam attendito : But ye wil saie , this Manner , or rather , this Deathe , beganne not of you : Woulde God it mighte ende in you . Doo ye not see , that al your Ecclesiastical zele , and care standeth onely in mainteinance of Honoure ? Vpon Honoure al togeather is bestowed : vpon Holinesse , either nothinge , or very litle . If , vpon occasion , ye woulde sommewhat submit your selfe , and deale familiarely , O , doo not so , saie they : It is not meete : It is not agreeable to the time : It is not conuenient for your Maiestie : Consider wel , what state ye beare . Sutche good Lessons yée haue , where with to nourture , and to traine the Pope . And if he happen of him selfe to be a foole , by sutche schoolinge yée are hable to make him madde .

But Gregorie , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 34. Artic. 4. Diu. 25. ye saie , beinge Pope , gouerned the whole Churche of God . For he complaineth , that Maximus was made Bishop of Salonae in Illyrico without his allowance . This Authoritie is answered in my Former Replie . But how holdeth this Argument , M. Hardinge ? Gregorie complaineth , that Maximus was made Bishop of Salonae in Illyrico without his allowance : Ergo , Gregorie ruled the whole Churche ?

What Schole wil allowe you sutche Conclusions ? It is knowen , that in the Nicene Councel the charge of the whole Churche was committed to thrée Principal Patriarkes , whereof the Patriarke of Rome was the Firste : the Seconde of Alexandria : the Thirde of Antioche . And eche of these thrée was limited seuerally to his owne peculiare portion . Nilus De Primatu Roma . Pon. Nilus a Greeke Writer saithe , Cùm aliae Regiones assignatae sint Romano , aliae Alexandrino , aliae Constantinopolitano , non magis hi sub illo sunt , quam ille sub hisce : For ás mutche as certaine Countries are limited to the Bishop of Rome : certaine to the Bishop of Alexandria : and certaine to the Bishop of Constantinople , they are now no more vnder him , then he vnder them .

As for the Churches of Illyricum , they were specially appointed to the Bishop of Rome , as it appeareth by the Epistle of Pope Damasus , written to the Bishoppes of Illyricum : Sozomen . Lib. 6. Cap 23. Par est omnes , qui sunt in Orbe Romano , Magistros consentire : It is meete , that al the Teachers , that be within the Romaine Prouince , agree togeather . So saithe Athanasius , Athanas ad Solitariam vitam agentes . Roma est Metropolis Romanae Ditionis : Rome is the Mother Churche ( not of the whole worlde , but ) of the Prouince of Rome . Nicephorus saithe , Iustinianus decreuit , vt Iustiniana Prima haberet locum Sedis Apostolicae Romae : vtque esset Caput sibi ipsi cum plena potestate : Nicephor . Lib. 17. Cap. 28. Iustinianus the Emperoure appointed , that the Cittie called Iustiniatia Prima shoulde haue the place of the Apostolique See of Rome : and that with ful power it should be Head vnto it selfe . Neither durste your forged , and countrefeite Anacletus , to claime the Iurisdiction of al the whole worlde , but onely a portion of the same . For thus he saithe , Anaclet . Epist. 3. Dist. 93. Iuxta Sanctorum . Omnes Episcopi , qui huius Apostolicae Sedis ordinationi subiacent : Al Bishoppes ( not through the worlde , but ) that are Subiecte to the ordination of this Apostolique See of Rome . So likewise S. Gregorie in his complainte vnto the Empresse , touchinge this same Maximus , the Bishop of Salonae , speaketh not of al the Bishoppes , that were throughout the whole Churche of God , but onely of sutche Bishoppes , as were limited vnto his particulare charge . For thus he maketh his complainte , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 34. Si Episcopi mei me despiciant &c. If mine owne Bishoppes ( lieinge within mine owne peculiare Iurisdiction ) shal despice me .

Therefore your Diuinitie wanted Logique , M. Hardinge , when ye framed your Argument in this sorte , Gregorie complained of Maximus &c. Ergo , Gregorie gouerned the whole Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 1. & . 2.

But where they saie , we haue gonne awaie from the Vnitie of the Catholique Churche , this is not onely a matter of malice , but bisides , though it bee most vntrue , yet hath it somme shewe and appearance of truthe . For the common people , and ignorante multitude geeue not credite onely to thinges true , and of certainetie , but euen to sutche thinges also , if any chaunce , whiche maie seeme to haue but a resemblaunce of truthe . Therefore we see , that suttle , and crafty persones , when they had no truthe on their side , haue euer contended , & hotely argued with things likely to be true , to the intent thei , which were not able to espie the very grounde of the mater , mighte be caried away at least with somme pretense & probabilitie , or likelihoode of the Truthe . In times paste , whereas the firste Christians , oure Forefathers , in makinge their Praiers to God , did turne them selues towardes the Easte , there were that saide , they woorshipped the Sonne , Tertull. in Apologetico . & reckened the same as their God . Againe , where oure Forefathers saide , that as touchinge Immortal & Euerlastinge Life , they liued by none other meanes , but by the Fleashe , and Bloude of that Lambe without spotte , that is to saie , of oure Saueour Iesus Christe , the enuious Creatures , & Enimies of Christes Crosse , whose onely care was to bringe Christian Religion into sclaunder by al manner of waies , made the people beleeue , that they were wicked personnes , that thei sacrificed mennes Fleashe , Ibidem . and dronke mennes Bloude . Also where oure Forefathers saide , that , before God , there is neither Man , nor Woman , and that for atteininge to the true Righteousnesse , there is no distinction at al of personnes : & , whereas they called one an other indifferently by the name of Sisters , and Brothers , there wanted not menne , whiche forged false tales vpon the same , saieinge that the Christians made no difference amonge them selues , either of age , or of kinde : but like brute beastes without regarde , had to doo one with an other . Ibidem . And , whereas , to praie , and to heare the Gospel , they mette often togeather in secrete , and byplaces , bicause Rebelles sometime were woonte to doo the like , therefore Rumours were euery were spreadde abroade , that they made priuie confederacies , & tooke counsel togeather , either to kil the Magistrates , or to subuerte the Common Wealthe . And , whereas in Celebratinge the Holy Mysteries after Christes Institution , they tooke Breade and Wine , thei were therefore thought of many , Augustin . Contra Faust . Lib. 27. Cap. 13. to woorship , not Christe , but Bacchus , and Ceres : for somuche as those vaine Goddes were woorshipped of the Heathen in like sorte , after a prophane Superstition , with Breade & Wine . These thinges were beleeued of many , not bicause thei were true in deede ( for what coulde be more vntrue ? ) but bicause they were like to bee true , and through a certaine shadowe of truthe mighte the more easily deceiue the simple . On this fashon likewise doo these menne sclaunder vs as Heretiques , and saie that wee haue leafte the Churche and Felowship of Christe : not bicause thei thinke it is true , for they doo not mutche force of that , but bicause to ignoraunte folke , it mighte perhaps somme waie appeare true .

Wee haue in deede put oure selues aparte , not as Heretiques are woonte , from the Churche of Christe , but as al good menne oughte to doo , from the infection of naughty personnes , and Hypocrites . Neuerthelesse in this pointe they triumphe maruciloully , that they bee the Churche , that their Churche is Christes Spouse , the Piller of Truthe , the Arke of Noe : and , that without it there is no hope of Saluation . Contrariewise , they saie , that wee bee Renegates : that we haue torne Christes seate : that wee are plucked quite of from the Body of Christe , & haue foresaken the Catholique Faithe . And , when they leaue nothinge vnspoken , that maie neuer so falsely and malitious●y be saide againste vs , yet this one thinge are they neuer hable truely to saie , that we haue swarued , either from the Woorde of God , or from the Apostles of Christe , or from the Primitiue Churche . Surely wee haue euer iudged the Primitiue Churche of Christes time , of the Apostles , and of the Holy Fathers , to be the Catholique Churche : neither make wee doubte to name it , Noes Arke , Christes Spouse , the Piller and vpholder of al Truthe : nor yet to fixe therein the whole meane of oure Saluation . It is doubtlesse an odious mater , for one to leaue the felowship whereunto he hathe benne accustomed , and specially of those menne , whoe , though , they be not , yet at leaste seeme to be , and be called Christians . And , to saie truely , wee doo not despise the Churche of these men ( how so euer it be ordered by them now a daies ) partely for the names sake it selfe , and partely for that the Gospel of Iesus Christe hath once benne therein truely , and purely set ●oorthe . Neither had we departed therefrom , but of very necessitie , and mutche againste our willes .

M. Hardinge .

Wee graunt , that in olde time slaunders were made vpon the Faithefull . But no like slaunder is made by vs vpon you in the matter , whereof ye speake . For let vs graunt , that ye haue in deede put your selues aparte , and are gone from the contagion of naughtie persons and Hypocrites . This is the very thinge , we laie to your charge . For though we were suche , as for a great number ye shall neuer be able to prooue , yet by Christes owne sentence ye muste doo that , * * The same Scribes , and Phariseis commaunded the people to refuse Christes companie : Iohan. 9. & 12. And was the people bounde to folowe them ? whiche they that sit in the chaire of Moses bid you doo , although they be Hypocrites , as the Scribes and Phariseis were , of whome Christe spake &c. But it shal be inoughe for you to doo , as the Successours of Peter bid you to doo , and so to folowe their saieinges , and not their dooinges .

The Primitiue Churche is continewed with our time , by the Successours of S. Peter . for whose Faithe neuer to faile Christe praied , and whome ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Christe neuer gaue Peter any sutche special Priuilege . onely he made Shepeherde to feede all his Flocke of Sheepe and Lambes . Christe * * A strange kinde of Diuinitie : sutche as Peter , and Paul● neuer knewe . now requireth of you , not to obeie Peter and Paule , but to obeie him , who sitteth in their chaire . Where ye saie , it is an odious matter to forsake vs , and yet haue foresaken vs : where ye confesse that ye despise not the Churche , we be of , and yet graunt that ye haue departed from it : how standeth this togeather ? Remember ye what ye saie ? Knowe ye what ye doo ? Who will regarde your woorde , whiche with one breathe saie , and vnsaie ? If it be odious , why doo ye it ? If ye despise not the Churche , why departe ye from it ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Christe saithe , Departing from the Pope . The Scribes , and Phariseis sitte in Moses Chaire : Doo that they saie , but doo not , that they doo . Ergo , saie you , Wee maie not departe awaie from the Pope . How so euer it fare with your Conclusion , M. Hardinge , verily in your premisses yée compare the Pope , and his Cardinalles with the Scribes , and Phariseis . And yet the Scribes , and Phariseis sate in the Chaire , and taught the Lawe : Your Pope , and Cardinalles sitte stil , and teache nothinge . Notwithstandinge , let vs wel allowe of this Comparison . Matth. 23. Ye maie remember , that Christe also saithe , Woe be vnto you , yee Scribes , and Phariseis , that shutte vp the Kingedome of Heauen before menne : and neither doo you enter in your selues : nor wil you suffer other , that faine woulde enter . Woe be vnto you , yee blinde Guides : Woe be vnto you , that haue taken awaie the keie of Knowledge . Likewise he saithe of them vnto his Disciples : Beware of the leauen of the Scribes , and Phariseis : Let them goe : Matth. 16. Matth. 15. Blinde they are , and the Leaders of the blinde .

To sitte in Moses Chaire , was , truely , and rightly to instructe the people , and to open vnto them the Lawe of Moses . August . De Sermone Domi. in Monte , Lib. 2. S. Augustine saithe , Hoc ipsum , quòd bona dicebant , & ea , quae dicebant , vtiliter audiebantur , & fiebant , non erat ipsorum . Cathedram enim , inquit , Mosi sedent : That they spake good thinges vnto the people , and that the thinges , that they saide , were profitable to the hearers , and dooers of the same , it was not of them selues . For Christe saithe , They sitte vpon Moses Chaire . Againe he saithe , Sedendo super Cathedram Mosis , legem Dei docent . Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 46. Ergo per illos Deus docet . Sua verò illi si velint docere , nolite audire : nolite facere . Certè enim tales sua quaerunt , non quae Iesu Christi : Sittinge vpon Moses Chaire , they teache the Lawe of God : Therefore it is God , that teacheth by the meane of them . But if they wil teache you thinges of their owne , then heare them not : then doo it not . For certainely sutche menne seeke their owne : and not the thinges , that perteine to Christe Jesus . Ye sée therefore , M. Hardinge , wée are bounde to heare the Pope , and his Cardinalles , and other like Scribes , and Phariseis , not absolutely , or without exception , what so euer they liste to saie : but onely so longe , as they teache the Lawe of God . Further then that , S. Augustine saithe , Wee maie neither heare them , nor folowe theire Counsel .

Hereunto ye thought it good , to adde more force , as a supplie , to aide youre wantes . Christe saide vnto Peter , I haue praied for thee , that thy Faithe shal neuer faile . Ergo , saie you , The Pope can neuer erre . This waie of reasoninge , I trowe , yee Learned of Peter de Palude a woorthy Doctoure of your side . For so he reasoneth : Ego rogaui pro te , Petrus De Palude , de Potestate pp. Articul. 4. Petre , vt Fides tua non deficiat . Ex quo habetur , quòd Romana Ecclesia in Fide errare non potest : nec de eius Fide dubitare licet : Sed in omnibus est sequenda : Peter , I haue Praied for thee , that thy Faithe maie not faile . By these woordes wee are taught , that the Churche of Rome cannot erre in Faithe . Neither is it lawful to doubte of the Faithe of that Churche : but in al causes wee are bounde to folowe it . Augu. De quaest. Noui Testamen . quae. 75. But S. Augustine saithe , Nunquid pro Petro rogabat : pro Iohanne , & Iacobo non rogabat ? Vt coeteros raceam : To leaue the reste , did Christe Praie for Peter ? and did he not Praie for Iohn , and Iames ? Againe he saithe , August . De Verbis Domini in Euange . secund. Lucam . Sermo. 36. Hac nocte postulauit Satanas vexare vos , ficut triticum : & egorogaui Patrem pro vobis , ne deficiat Fides Vestra : This nighte hath Satan begged to threashe you , as if it were wheate : but I haue Praied to my Father ( not for Peter onely , but ) for you , that your Faithe maie not faile . So saithe Origen , Nunquid audebimus dicere , quòd aduersus vnum Petrum non praeualiturae sint portae Inferorum : aduersus coeteros autem Apostolos , Origen . in Matth. Tract. 1. ac Praefectos Ecclesiae sint praeualiturae ? An Petro Soli dantur à Christo Claues Regni Coelorum ? Nec alius Beatorum quisquam eas accepturus est ? Omnia , quaeque priùs dicta sunt , quaeque sequuntur , Velut ad Petrum dicta , sunt omnium Communia : Maie wee dare to saie , that the gates of Helle shal not preuaile Onely againste Peter : but shal preuaile againste the other Apostles , and Rulers of the Churche ? Were the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen geuen onely to Peter ? And shal no Holy man els receiue the same ? Nay , al the thinges , bothe that were saide before , and also that folowe after , as spoken to Peter , are Common , and belonge vnto al. Therefore , as ye saie of the Churche of Rome , so maie wée saie likewise of the Churche of Hierusalem , where S. Iames was : and of the Churche of Ephesus , where S. Iohn was , and of other the like Apostolique Churches , notwithstandinge they be now in the possession of the Turke , and haue receiued the Religion of Mahomete , yet , bicause Christe hathe once praied for them , The Faithe of them shal neuer faile .

Further ye tel vs , It shal be yenough for you , to doo , as the Successoures of Peter bid you to doo . Christe now requireth not of you to obeie Peter , and Paule : but to obeie him , that sitteth in their Chaire . If this waie be as sure , as it is shorte , then is there no doubte , but al is wel . Though wée beléeue neither Peter , nor Paule , nor what so euer is written in Goddes Woorde , yet , saie you , If we folowe the Pope , wee cannot erre . For thus mutche , M. Harding , ye are hable to warrante vs by your Gospel , that Christe requireth not vs now , to be obedient to Peter , and Paule , but onely to the Popes Holinesse , that keepeth Residence in theire Chaire . This is your Diuinitie : these are your woordes . If ye euer recante the same , ye marre the flower of your Market . Wée néede not now to saie , Thus saithe the Lorde : it shal be sufficient for vs , Galat. 1. to saie , Thus saithe the Pope . Yet S. Paule so far aduentureth the Truthe , and certainetie of his Doctrine , that he doubteth not to saie , If an Angel from Heauen preache vnto you any other Gospel , then wee haue Preached , accursed be he . Chrysost. in 1. Caput ad Galat. Vpon whiche woordes S. Chrysostome hathe noted thus : Non dixit , Si Contraria annuntiauerint , aut totum Euangelium subuerterint : verùm , Si paulùm Euangelizauerint praeter Euangelium , quod accepistis , etiamsi quiduis labefactauerint , Anathema sint : S. Paule saithe not , If they Preache Contrarie to the Gospel , or ouerthrowe the whole Gospel : but , If they Preache any little thinge bisides the Gospel , that ye haue receiued : if they ouerthrowe any thinge , what so euer it be , accursed be they . Dist. 36. Ca. final . Therefore S. Hierome saithe , Ea doceat Episcopus , quae à Deo didicerit , non ex proprio Corde &c. Let the Bishop teache those thinges , that he hath learned of God : and not of his owne harte , or fansie .

Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in 2. Timoth. Homi. 2. Plus aliquid dicam : Ne Paulo quidem obedire oporret , si quid dixerit proprium , si quid humanum : sed Apostolo Christum in se loquentem circumferenti : I wil telle you a greatter mater : Wee maie not obeie , no not S. Paule him selfe , if he speake any thinge of his owne , or if he speake onely as a man : But wee muste beleeue the Apostle of Christe , carrieinge Christe aboute speakinge within him .

And therefore Panormitane saithe , De Electio . & Elec. potesta . Significasti . Abb. In concernentibus Fidem , etiam dictum vnius priuati esset praeferendum dicto Papae : si ille moueretur melioribus rationibus Noui , & Veteris Testamenti , quàm Papa : In maters concerninge Faithe , the saieinge of one Priuate man were to be hearde before the saieinge of the Pope : if the same Priuate man were moued with better reasones of the Newe , and Olde Testamente , then the Pope . But , that wee should no lenger obeie Peter , and Paule , but geeue eare onely to him , that is cropen into theire Chaire , it is suche Diuinitie , as neither Peter , nor Paule euer taught vs .

Laste of al , as vpon somme good aduauantage , ye beginne to Triumphe . Remember yee , saie ye , what ye saie ? knowe yee , what ye doo ? who wil regarde youre woorde , whiche with one breathe saie , and vnsaie ? If it be odious to leaue our felowship , why doo yee it ? If yee despise not the Churche , why departe ye from it ? To Saie , and Vnsaie , it is your propertie , M. Harding : it is not oures . Yée haue Saide , & Vnsaide , & yet , were it not for shame , it is thought yée woulde be contente to Saie againe . Wee despise not the Churche : it is the House of God : But we mislike your defacinge , and disorderinge of the Churche . Christe reproued the Priestes , and Phariseis , for that they had turned the Temple of God into a caue of Theeues : Matth. 21. And yet neuerthelesse he despised it not : but saide it was his Fathers house . To leaue the wicked felowship of them , that beare a name , and shewe of Godlinesse , it seemeth odious before menne : 2. Iohn . but before God it is not odious . S. Iohn saithe , Who so euer is sutche a one , bidde him not , God speede . For who so saithe , God speede vnto him , is partetaker of his il . 1. Corinth . 5. Apocalyp. 18. S. Paule saithe , I warne you , that you receiue no meate with any sutche . And God him selfe saith , Comme out from her , ô my people , leste ye be partetakers of her sinnes , and leste ye receiue of her Plagues .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 3.

But I put case , an Idole be sette vp in the Churche of God , and the same Desolation , whiche Christe prophesied to comme , stoode openly in the Holy Place ? What if somme Theefe , or Pirate inuade , and possesse Noes Arke ? These folkes , as often as they tel vs of the Churche , meane thereby them selues alone , and attribute al these titles to theire owne selues , boastinge , as they did in times paste , whiche cried , The Temple of the Lorde , The Temple of the Lorde : or , as the Phariseis , and Scribes did , whiche craked , they were Abrahams Children . Thus with a gaie , and ioly shewe deceiue they the simple , and seeke to choke vs with the bare name of the Churche . Mutche like as if a Theefe , when he hathe gotten into an other mans house , and by violence either hathe thruste out , or slaine the owner , shoulde afterwarde assigne the same house to him selfe , castinge foorthe of possession the righte Enheritour : Or , if Antichriste , when he had once entred into the Temple of God , should afterwarde saie , This house is mine owne , and Christe hathe nothinge to doo withal . For these menne nowe , after they haue leafte nothinge remaininge in the Churche of God , that hath any likenesse of his Churche , yet wil thei seeme the Patrones , and the valiaunte maineteiners of the Churche : Very like as Gracchus amongest the Romaines stoode in Defence of the Treasurie , notwithstandinge with his prodigalitie , and fonde expenses , he had vtterly wasted the whole stocke of the Treasurie . And yet was there neuer any thinge so wicked , or so farre out of reason , but lightely it mighte be couered , and Defended by the name of the Churche . For the Waspes also make honycombes , as wel as Bees : and wicked men haue companies like to the Churche of God . Yet for al that , They be not streight waie the people of God , whiche are called the people of God : neither be they al Israelites , as many as are comme of Israel the Father . August . in Sermon . Contra Arianos , to . 6. The Arians , notwithstanding they were Heretiques , yet bragged they , that they alone were the Catholiques , Augustinus in Ep. 48 ad Vincen . Epiphani . lib. 1. Haere . 30. calling al the reste , now Ambrosians , nowe Athanasians , nowe Iohannites . And Nestorius , as saith Theodorete , for al that he was an Heretique , yet couered he him selfe 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is to wite , Sozomen . lib. 6. cap. 38. with a certaine cloke , & colour of the true and Right Faith . Ebion , though he agreed in opinion with the Samaritanes , yet , as saith Epiphanius , he woulde needes be called a Christian . The Mahometistes at this daie , for al that al Histories make plaine mention , and themselues also cannot denie , but they tooke their fist beginning of Agar the bonde woman , yet for the very name , and stockes sake , chuse they rather to be called Saracenes , as though they came of Sara the free woman , and Abrahams true and lawful wife . So likewise the false Prophetes of al ages , whiche stode vp against the Prophetes of God , and resisted Esaias , Ieremie , Christe , and the Apostles , at no time craked of any thinge so mutche , as they did of the name of the Churche . And for none other cause did they so fearcely vexe them , and cal them Renegates , and Apostatas , then for that they forsooke their felowship , and keapte not th ordinaunces of the Elders . Wherefore , if we would folowe the iudgementes of those menne onely , who then gouerned the Churche , and would respecte nothinge els , neither God , nor his woorde , it must needes bee confessed , that the Apostles were rightly , and by iust Lawe condemned of them to death , bicause they fel from the Bishoppes and Priestes , that is , you must thinke , from the Catholique Churche : and bicause they made newe alterations in Religion , contrarie to the Bishoppes , and Priestes willes , yea , and for al their spurninge so earnestly against it .

M. Hardinge .

What a foolishe putcase , and what a fond what if is that , to saie , What if a pirate inuade the Arke of Noe ? ‡ ‡ As though S. Paule had not warned vs , that Antichriste shal sitte , and shewe him selfe in the place of Christe . As though God sate not at the sterne , and had the bel●e in his owne hande .

* * Ergo Antichriste shal sitte in the Popes chaire . 2. Thess. 2 Antichriste can not sit in the temple of God , * * But what if Christes Vicare him selfe be Antichriste ? vntil the vicare of Christe , who keepeth possession , be throwen out , and then wil Christe come with his Angels to destroie the wicked man with the breath of his mouth . Ye that are the berbingers of Antichriste , are not yet able to cast out the lieutenant of Christe . Math. 24. Ye heaue at the vnderministers . Your maister wil accompleshe al iniquitie , and he shal be the desolation that Christe spake of . We vnderstande , what ye shoote at . But ye are ashamed to vtter plainely your blasphemie . ‡ ‡ Vntruth , Malicious and sclaunderous . Ye would saie ( as it may seeme ) if ye durste , that Christe is the desolation , and that Antichrist is the true God . * * Ergo yee belie vs , although not greatly . In effect I do not greatly belie you .

Neither if the Apostles might go from the Bishoppes of Moses lawe , therefore may ye departe from the vicare of Christe . For the lawe of Moses is changed , and the priesthod of Aaron is transferred : But the lawe and priesthood of Iesus Christe tarieth for euer , as Dauid said , Thou art priest for euer , according to the order of Melchisedech . Ye hault too manifestly .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Antichriste , ye saie , cannot sit in the Temple of God , vntil the Vicare of Christe , who keepeth possession , be throwen out . So the olde Troians sometime saide , Theire Cittie coulde neuer miscarrie , while theire Palladium remained emongest them . But who tolde you these straunge newes , To sit in the place of Christe . M. Harding ? Who made the Pope Christes Vicare general throughout the whole Churche ? 2. Thess 2. Or who bade him keepe possession in steede of Christe ? Muste wee needes thinke , that the whole state of Christes Churche , hangeth onely of the Pope ? Or that , if the Pope were not the Pope , the Churche of Christe were not the Churche ? Or , muste youre simple woorde nowe be taken for a Prophesie , that Antichriste shal neuer enter into Goddes Temple , before the Pope bee throwen oute ? This Fable woulde haue benne better furnished with more credite .

Verily whereas we saie , wee put case , an Idole be set vp in the Churche of God : Or , what if somme Theefe or Pirate inuade and possesse Noes Arke , neither is this , what if , so fonde as you woulde seeme to make it : nor this , Put case , so impossible . For S. Paule saithe , Antichriste shal sitte in the Churche of God , and shewe him selfe aboue al that is worshipped , or called God : that is to saie , Beinge a Theefe , and a Pirate , he shal enter perforce into Noes Arke .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , If Antichriste maie sitte in the place of God , mutche more maie he sitte in the place of Peter . I wil not saie , the Pope is Antichriste . God wil reuele him in his time : Apocalyp. 13. and he shal be knowen . S. Iohn saithe , This is the wisedome : who so hath vnderstandinge , let him recken the number of the Beaste . Vpon whiche woordes , Irenaeus , li. 5. cap. vltimo . Irenaeus welneare fifteene hundred yeeres agoe , saithe thus : The name of Antichriste , expressed by that number shal be , Latinus : And he addeth further , Hoc valdè verisimile est . Quoniam verissimum Regnum hoc habet vocabulum .

S. Gregor. lib. 4. Epist 38 Sacerdotum paratus est exercitus . Irenae lib. 5. Cap. penulti . Ioachimus Abbas . Gregorie saith , He is Antichriste , that shal claime to be called the Vniuersal Bishop : and shal haue a Garde of Priestes to attende vpon him . Againe , Irenaeus saithe , Antichristus , cùm sit Seruus , tamen adorari vult , vt Deus . Antichriste , notwithstandinge he be but a slaue , yet , he wil be woorshipped , as if he were God . Ioachimus Abbas saithe , Antichristus iampridem natus est Romae , & altiùs extolletur in Sede Apostolica : Antichriste is longe sithence borne in Rome , and yet shal be higher anaunced in the Apostolique See .

Thus is he described , that shal sitte in the place of Christe , and shal maineteine possession againste Christe . 2. Thess. 2. But , Christe shal comme with his holy Angels , and shal destroie him with the breath of his mouthe .

That ye allege of the Priesthoode of Melchisedech , serueth you here to smal pourpose . Wee knowe , that , not the Pope , but Christe alone is a Prieste for euer , Augustin in lib. 83. quaesti . quae. 61. accordinge to the Order of Melchisedech . S. Augustine saithe : Ipse est Sacerdos noster in aeternum , secundum Ordinem Melchisedech , qui semetipsum obtulit holocaustum pro peccatis nostris : & eius Sacrificii Similitudinem celebrandam in suae Passionis Memoriam commendauit : Christe is oure Prieste for euer after the Order of Melchisedech , whiche hath offered vp him selfe a Sacrifice for oure sinnes : and hath deliuered vnto vs a Similitude , or Likenesse of that Sacrifice , to be donne in remembraunce of his Passion .

Likewise againe he saithe , In eadem quaestione . Holocausti eius Imaginem ad Memoriam Passionis suae in Ecclesia celebrandam dedit , vt esset Sacerdos in aeternum : non secundum Ordinem Aaron , sed secundum ordinem Melchisedech : Christe hathe geuen an Image , or Resemblaunce of that Sacrifice , to bee keapte in the Churche in Remembraunce of his Passion , that he might be a Prieste for euer : not after the Order of Aaron , but after the Order of Melchisedech .

Howe be it , Articul . 17. Diuision . 15. touchinge this whole mater , I haue answeared more at large in my Former Replie .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 4.

Wherefore , like as it is written , that Hercules in olde time was forced , in striuing with Antaeus that huge Giant , to lifte him quite vp from the Earth , that was his Mother , ere he coulde conquert him : euen so muste our Aduersaries be heaued from their Mother , that is , from this vaine colour , and shadowe of the Churche , wherewith they so disguise , and defende them selues : otherwise they can not bee brought to yelde vnto the Woorde of God . And therefore saithe Ieremie the Prophete , Make not sutche great boaste , that the Temple of the Lorde is with you . This is but a vaine confidence : these are but lies . The Angel also saithe in the Apocalyps : They saie , they be Iewes : but they bee the Synagog of Sathan . And Christe said to the Phariseis , when they vaunted them selues of the kinred , Iohn . 8. and bloude of Abraham : Ye are of your father the Diuel : For you resemble not your Father Abraham : As mutche to saie , as , Ye are not the menne yee would so faine be called : ye beguile the people with vaine titles : and abuse the name of the Churche , to the ouerthrowing of the Churche .

M. Hardinge .

Heaue at vs , whiles ye wil , and whiles ye may , ye shal neuer remoue vs . In whiche stedfastnes we truste to stande by Gods grace to the last breath . Heaue at vs with al the forces of your cunning , of your malice , of your flatterie , of your policies , and with what so euer ingens ye haue : ye shal neuer be able to ouerthrowe the house of our consciences builded vpon the sure rocke . Math. 7. Let the gourders of raine come downe from you and al other Heretikes , let the floudes of worldly rages thrust , let the windes of Sathans temptations blowe their worste , this house shal not be ouerthrowen .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O M. Rom. 11. Hardinge , S. Paule saith vnto you , Noli altum Sapere , sed time : Presume not of your selfe : but stande in awe . Sutche woordes woulde rather haue becommed them , Hierem. 44 that said sommetime vnto the Prophete Hieremie , Verbum , quòd locutus es nobis in Nomine Domini , non audiemus : Sed faciendo faciemus omne verbum , quòd egredietur de ore nostro : Wee wil neuer heare the woorde , that thou speakest vnto vs in the name of the Lorde . Luke . 19. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . But wee wil surely doo , what so euer thing shal passe out of our owne mouthes . Thus it is written of them , that saide , The Lorde shal not beare rule ouer , nor maister vs . With like mildenesse of spirite the wilful Philosopher saide , Non persuadebis , etiamsi persuaseris : Ye shal not make me beleue it , no though I doo beleue it .

As Constancie in good thinges is a vertue , so frowardnesse , and wilfulnesse is a vice . Vowe not thus youre owne destruction . He that is fallen , maie rise againe . The Lorde is hable to raise you vp : and to make you a vessel of his glorie . Ye knowe not , to what good pourpose God hath appointed you . Speake not ouer mutche of the strength of your Mounte . You knowe , vpon howe light occasions it hath benne moued . Folowe rather S. Paules counsel , and with feare , and tremblinge woorke youre owne Saluation . Philip. 2. Hieremi . 10. Luke . 11. The waie , ye walke in , is not youre owne : Your harte is in the hande of God . Suffer Goddes Truthe to preuaile : And vnderstand , that the kingedome of God is come vnto you .

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision . 1.

So that these mennes parte had ben , I haue praied for thee , Peter &c. first to haue clearely , and truely proued , that the Romishe Churche is the true and right instructed Churche of God : and that the same , as they doo order it at this daie , doothe agree with the Primitiue Churche of Christe , of the Apostles , and of the Holy Fathers , whiche wee doubte not , but was in deede the True Catholique Churche .

M. Hardinge .

Ye would vs to proue , that the Romaine Churche is the true Churche of God . Ye graunt , that once it was the true Churche of God . And the Gospel sheweth , that Christe praied for it in S. Peter , who made his successours there . Luke . 22. * * This is a very vaine hope . For Christe praied for the other Apostles no lesse , then for Peter . What followeth hereof , but that it must needes abide as true , as euer it was , except Christes praier were not heard ? S. Paule likewise wttnesseth , that the Romaine Faithe is preached in the vniuersal worlde , Rom. 1. Li. 4. Epi. 8. geuing a manifest prophecie , that the Romaine Faithe and the Catholique Faithe should be alone . S. Cyprian calleth the agreing with the Bishop of Rome and communicating with him , Catholicae Ecclesiae vnitatem , &c. The allowing and firme holding of the vnitie of the Catholique Churche . And writing to Antonianus in the same booke , he accompteth it for one thing , to Communicate with Cornelius the B. of Rome , and to Communicate with the Catholique Churche . For you it is vaine to saie , that it hath erred , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For where did the Holy Ghost euer make sutche promisse ? when the holy ghost hath signified , that it can not erre .

The B. of Sarisburie .

I wil not saie , Where were youre wittes , M. Hardinge , when yee wrote theise thinges ? But wel maie I saie , where was your Logique ? As for Diuinitie , it appeareth by youre reckening , ye make no greate accoumpte of it . Christe , saie you , praied for Peter : Ergo , the Romaine Faithe can neuer faile . Fewe children woulde willingly make sutche Argumentes . Ye presume very mutche of the Simplicitie , and Ignoraunce of youre Reader . For thinke you , that Christe praied onely for Peter , and for no body els ? Or thinke you , that Christes praiers tooke place in none other of al the Apostles , but onely in Peter ? Awake for shame : and shake of these dreames . Christe him selfe saithe , O Father , I praie nor onely for these , Iohn . 17. but also for them , that by their woorde shal beleue in me . And S. Augustine thus reporteth the same praier , as it is alleaged before : Ego rogaui Paitem pro vobis , Augustin . De verbis Do. in Euangelio Secun . Lucam . Serm 36. Augusti in quae . Nou Testam . quae . 75. Origen . in Mat. tracta 1. Roma● . 1. ne deficiat Fides vestra : I haue praied vnto my Father , ( not for Peter onely , but ) for you , that youre Faithe maie not faile . Againe he saithe , Nunquid pro Petro rogabat : Pro Iohanne , & Iacobo non rogabat ? Did Christe praie for Peter : And did he not praie for Iohn , and Iames ? Certainely Origen saithe , as likewise I haue before alleged , Omnia , quaeque priùs dicta sunt , quaeque sequuntur , velut ad Petrum dicta , sunt omnium Communia : Al the thinges , that either paste before , or folowe after , as spoken vnto Peter , are common vnto al the Apostles .

But S. Paule saithe vnto the Romaines , Youre Faithe is spoken of throughout the worlde . And S. Cyprian saithe , The agreeing with the Bishop of Rome was the Vnitie of the Catholique Churche . And yet it maie please you , to be remembred by the waie , that the same S. Cyprian reproued Cornelius , and Stephanus , bothe Bishoppes of Rome : and tolde them , they were bothe deceiued : and therefore woulde not agree vnto them . Neuerthelesse , hereof ye conclude thus , Ergo the Holy Ghoste hath signified , that the Churche of Rome cannot erre . It pitieth me , M. Harding , in youre behalfe , to see , into howe streite , and miserable holes ye are faine to creepe . For , what if the Faithe , and the Constancie of the Romaines in olde times , for the Nobilitie of that Empiere and Cittie , were then published throughout the whole worlde ? Yet where did the Holy Ghoste euer tel you , that therefore the Churche of Rome shoulde neuer erre ? By what Woorde ? By what Promisse ? By what Reuelation ? Yee saie , The Faithe of the Romaines was heard of throughoute the whole Worlde . So was the Greate capitol there : So was the bewtie of their Princely buildinges . Whiche , notwithstanding are nowe made smoothe , and euen with the grounde . Esai . 2. So likewise is it written of Hierusalem , De Sion exibit Lex , & Verbum Domini de Hierusalem : The Lawe shal comme foorth from Sion , and the Woorde of God from Hierusalem . So in the Cittie of Antioche the Faithful were firste called Christians : Chrysostom . ad Popul . Antio . Homi. 3. Nazian. epist. 74. Nazian. ad Heronem . And therefore Chrysostome calleth the same Cittie Caput totius orbis , The Head of the whole worlde . Thus was Eusebius Samosatensis called Regula Fidei , The Rule , and Standerde of the Faithe : Thus was Athanasius called Orbis oculus : & Fundamentum Fidei : The Eie of the world , and the Fundation of the Faithe . Would ye hereof conclude , M. Harding , that therfore the Faithe of these Churches can neuer faile ? Ye knowe , that al this notwithstandinge , the Churches as wel of Hierusalem , and Antioche , as also of Asia , Syria , Graecia , and of al the Easte , are nowe subiecte to the Turke , and scarcely a fewe leafte there , that dare to professe the name of Christe .

What a fonde Paradise is this , to saie , bicause ye had once the Faith of Christe , therefore nowe ye can neuer erre ? Sutche a fantastical Paradise had they built vnto them selues , Hierem. 7. Math. 3. that cried out in olde times , euen as you do now , The Temple of God : The Temple of God : Wee are the Children of Abraham . But who so euer wel considereth the storie of the time , shal soone finde , that then they cried moste , The Temple of God , when they had moste shamefully abused , and defaced the Temple of God : and , that then they claimed moste to be called the Children of Abraham , when they had forsaken bothe the Faithe , and life of Abraham , and , as Christe saithe vnto them , Iohan. 8. were becomme the Children of the Diuel .

Sutche a fantasie had they , that saide , Non peribit Lex à Sacerdote : Nec consilium à Sapiente : Hierem. 18. Nec Verbum à Propheta : The Lawe shal not departe from the Prieste : Nor Counsel from the Wise : Nor the Woorde from the Prophete . But God saith vnto them , Obstupescent Sacerdotes , & Prophetae terrebuntur . Lex peribit à Sacerdote , & Consilium à Senioribus . Nox vobis erit pro Visione : & tenebrae pro Diuinatione : Youre Priestes shal be amased : and youre Prophetes shal be at their wittes ende . The Lawe shal perishe from the Prieste : Hieremi . 18. Ezechiel . 7. Miche . 6. Galat. 3. 2. Pet. 2. Esai . 1. and Counsel shal wante in the Elders . Ye shal haue Nighte in steede of a Vision : and Darkenesse in steede of Prophesie .

S. Paule saithe vnto the Galathians , Ye beganne wel : who hathe thus bewitched you , that yee shoulde not obeie the Truthe ? S. Peter saithe , As there were False Prophetes emongest the people in olde time , euen so emong you there shal be False Prophetes , bringing in Sectes of Perdition . Of sutche a chaunge the Prophete Esaie complaineth , Quomodò facta est Meretrix Ciuitas Fidelis ? Howe is this Faithful Cittie now become an Harlot ? Deceiue not thus youre selfe , M. Harding , with vaine hope . Harken rather to the voice of our Lorde . Put nothing to his Worde : take nothing from the same : turne neither to the Right hande , nor to the Leafte . So shal ye be sure , ye shal not erre .

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision , 2.

For our partes , if wee could haue iudged , Ignoraunce , Error , Superstition , Idolatrie , mennes Inuentions , and the same commonly disagreeing with the Holy Scriptures , either to please God , or to be sufficient for th obteining of Euerlasting Saluation : or if we could ascertaine our selues , that the Woorde of God was written but for a time onely , and afterwarde againe ought to be abrogated , and put away : or els , that the Saienges & Commaundementes of God ought to be subiecte to mans wil , Goddes woorde mutable . that , whatsoeuer God saithe , and commaundethe , excepte the Bishop of Rome wil , and Commaunde the same , it must be taken as voide , and vnspoken : If we coulde haue brought our selues to beleue these thinges , we graunt , there had benne no cause at al , why we shoulde haue leafte these mennes Companie .

M. Hardinge .

God forbid , that either ye , or any Christen man shoulde iudge , that ignorance , errour , superstition , idolatrie , mennes inuentions contrarie to the Scriptures , either pleased God , or to be sufficient to saluation . Bicause ye laie this to the catholique Churche , * * Vntruthe inclosed , knowen , and wilful : Reade the answeare . we can saie no lesse of you , but that ye be false liers , and diuelishe slaunderers . And ‡ ‡ Thus partely M. Hardinges Doctours saie : partely M. Hardinge him selfe : As it shal appeare . who teacheth , that Gods worde was written , but for a time onely ? ‡ That his commaundementes be subiecte to mans wil ? ‡ That Gods saienges and preceptes be voide , except the Bishop of Rome ratifie them ? Here would I saie vnto you at least , fie for shame , but that I thinke , I should preuaile no more , then if I saide to an impudent and common Harlot , Ierem. 3. fie for shame . Who maie not plainely see , the Scripture verified on you , Frons mulieris Meretricis facta est vobis ? Ye haue gotten to you the impudent face of an Harlot .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , it hath pleased you , to bestowe large liueries , of youre False Liers : Diuelishe Sclaunderers : Impudent Faces : Common Harlots : with Fies , and shames , &c. Wherein no man may iustly grudge you , to be so liberal of youre owne . First , that by youre Doctrine Ignorance highly pleaseth God , & is sufficient to Saluation , bisides the general practise of youre whole Churche , yee maie soone cal to minde , that one of youre dearest frendes , in most honourable Audience , not long sithence , openly published the same , in the name , and behoufe of al his Brethren , as a Secrete Mysterie , and the very bottome of youre Diuinitie : Ignorance is the Mother of Deuotion . You knowe , M. Harding , that a greate many bothe worthy , and honourable , are hable to witnesse , that this is , neither false Lie , nor Diuelishe Sclaunder . Concerninge Superstition , and Idolatrie , what neede we many wordes ? The thinge it selfe is too wel hable to proue it selfe . Who so but looketh into youre Churches , maie easily , not onely see it with his eies , but also feele it with his fingers . That Goddes Holy Worde , by youre Learning , is mutable , and serueth onely for a time , youre owne Doctoure Cardinalis Cusanus woulde soone haue taught you : Notwithstandinge , it maie scarcely seeme lawful for you , beinge so learned a man , in the Substance of youre owne Doctrine , Cardinal . Cusanus , De Authoritate Eccle. & Concilij Supra , & Contra Scripturam . to pleade Ignorance . Cardinal Cusanus woordes be these : Scripturae adaptatae sunt ad tempus , & variè intelliguntur : Ita vt vno tempore secundum currentem vniuersalem ritum exponantur : mutato ritu , iterùm Sententia mutetur : The Scriptures are applied vnto the time , and maie haue sundrie vnderstandinges : So that at one time they maie be expounded ( one waie ) accordinge to the vniuersal current order ( of the churche ) : and that , the same order being broken , the meaning of the Scriptures maie be chaunged . Looke better on your bookes , M. Hardinge : and ye shal see , that herein is neither Lie , nor Sclaunder . That the Holy Scriptures of God , by youre Diuinitie , be not Authentical , farther then they be ratified by the Pope , ye might haue learned of your Syluester Prierias , Syluester Prieria● , contra Lutherum . Maister of the Popes Palaice . Thus he writeth : A Doctrina Romanae Ecclesiae , & Romani Pontificis , Sacra Scriptura robur trahit , & authoritatem . The Holy Scripture taketh strengthe , and Authoritie of the Doctrine of the Romaine Churche , and of the Bishop of Rome . Againe he saithe , Indulgentiae Authoritate Scripturae non innotuere nobis : Sed Authoritate Romanae Ecclesiae , Romanorumque Pontificum ; quae Maior est : Pardonnes are not knowen to vs by the Authoritie of the Scriptures , but by the Authoritie of the Romaine Churche , and of the Bishoppes of Rome , whiche is greater , then the Authoritie of the Scriptures .

If ye saie , these be Lies , and Sclaunders , ye offer greate wronge to your owne Doctours . Neuerthelesse , if ye shal happen to crie out in the impatience of your Choler , Fy for shame : Impudente Faces : Common Harlottes : remember , what you your selfe haue written immediately before , touching the same . These be your owne wordes . Recante them yee maie : But denie them yee maie not . Thus you saie : M. H. fol 192 b. Christe nowe requireth of you , not to obeie Peter , and Paule , ( that is to saie , the Worde of God ) But to obe●e him , who sitteth in theire Chaire . Wee forge not these wordes , M. Hardinge : They are youre owne . Folkes wil thinke , yee haue no Modeste Matrones face , if ye speake willingly against youre selfe .

Nowe , ye see , M. Hardinge , who teacheth you , That Goddes Woorde was written onely for a time : And that Goddes Commaundementes are no further Authentical , but as they be ratified by the Pope : Therefore hencefoorth ye maie spare these Lies , and Sclaunders : and crie oute , Fy , and Shame , when somme occasion shal be offered . Cardin. Cusan . De Authorita . Eccle. & Concil. Supra & Contra Scripturam . In deede Cardinal Cusanus saithe : Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae . Quare Membra Cathedrae Vnita , & Pontifici Coniuncta , efficiunt Ecclesiam : The Truthe cleaueth faste to the Popes Chaire . Therefore the Members vnited vnto that Chaire , and ioined vnto the Pope , make the Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 1.

As touching that we haue now donne , to departe from that Churche , whoes errours were proued , & made manifest to the worlde , whiche Churche also had already euidently departed from Goddes Worde , and yet not to depart so mutche from it selfe , as from the errours thereof , & not to doo this disorderly , or wickedly , but quietly , and soberly , we haue donne nothing herein against the doctrine , either of Christe , or of his Apostles . For neither is the Churche of God sutche , as it maie not be dusked with somme spot , or asketh not sometime reparation . Els , what neede there so many Assemblies , & Councelles , without the whiche , In Concil. Lateranens . sub Iulio . 2. as saithe Egidius , the Christian Faithe is not hable to stande ? For looke , saithe he , howe often Councelles are discontinued , so often is the Churche destitute of Christe .

M. Hardinge .

That the Churche is pointes of our Faith necessarie to saluation erreth , we denie it : and * * Vntruthe . Ye make youre owne warrante . For Christe neuer made sutche promisse to the Churche of Rome . vpon warrant of Christes promise , we tel it you al assuredly , ye shal neuer be able to proue it .

Councels are kept , and Bishoppes bee made by the same prouidence of God , whiche prouideth partly by that meanes , and partly by other , that the Romaine Faithe , Chaire , and Rocke , shal stande for euer . Ad quos ( saithe S. Cyprian , speaking of them of Rome ) perfidia non potest habere accessum : ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , grounded vpon grosse ignorance . For M. Hard. fowly mistaketh S. Cyprians whole meaning . to the whiche vnfaithfulnes can not haue accesse . He saithe not onely , shal not haue accesse , but , can not haue accesse .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It séemeth , M. Hardinge , ye haue benne brought vp vnder somme poore vnskilful Surgian . For ve applie one salue to euery soare . What soeuer bee alleged against you , it is sufficient for you to answeare . The churche of Rome erreth not , hath not erred , can not erre . And to this pourpose ye haue brought vs in certaine wordes of S. Cyprian , farre bisides the Authours meaninge . Whereby it appereth , that sommetimes ye allege Authorities of the Fathers , not considering , neither to what ende they spake , nor what they meante .

For , where as S. Cyprian saithe , Vnto the Romaines vnfaithfulnesse can haue no accesse , he speaketh not of the Vnfaithfulnesse of Faithe , or Doctrine , as you by erroure haue imagined , but onely of the Vnfaithfulnesse of reporte . The cause of writinge that Epistle , in shorte , was this : Certaine lewde felowes , refusinge to stande to the iudgemente of the Bishoppes of their owne Countrie of Aphrica , The Churche of Rome can not erre . appealed further , and fledde to Rome , with many vntrue , and forged tales , to winne somme credite of their cause . Hereunto S. Cyprian saithe , The Romaines be godly , and wise men : they wil soone be hable , to espie their falsehedde . For vnfaitheful reportes , and lewde tales can haue no accesse vnto them . If ye had considered , either the occasion of the writting , or the whole drifte of the letter , Cyprian . lib. 1. Epist. 3. or the very bare woordes , as they lie , ye mighte easily haue , seene , that this onely was S. Cyprians meaning .

His woordes be these , Post ista adhuc insuper Pseudoepiscopo sibi ab Haereticis constituto , nauigare audent , & ad Petri Cathedram , vnde vnitas Sacerdotalis exorta est , à Schismaticis , & Profanis literas ferre : nec cogitare , eos esse Romanos , quorum Fides , Apostolo praedicante , laudata est : ad quos Perfidia habere non possit accessum : After this , hauing a False Bishop appointed vnto them by Heretiques , they dare to take shipping , and vnto Peters Chaire , and vnto that Principal Churche , from whence the Priestely vnitie grewe firste , to carrie letters from Schismatiques , and lewde menne : Neither consider they , that the Romaines are that people , whose Faith is praised by S. Paule the Apostle : vnto whome Vnfaithfulnesse ( of reportes , & tales ) can haue no accesse .

If yee doubte of this Exposition , reade these woordes , touchinge the same , goeinge before in the same Epistle : In eadem Epist. Roman cum Mendaciorum suorum merce nauigarunt . Quasi Veritas post eos nauigare non posset : quae Mendaces linguas rei certa probatione conuinceret . They saile to Rome with the Marchandise of their Lies : as though the Truethe coulde not saile after them , that by proufe of the certaintie , might controlle their lieing tongues . This is that Vnfaithfulnesse , that S. Cyprian speaketh of : and not the Vnfaithefulnesse of Faithe , and Doctrine .

Nowe , touchinge this Appealinge , and fleeing to Rome , leste yee shoulde thinke , by occasion of these woordes , that S. Cyprian alloweth it , or thinketh wel of it : ye shal finde in the same Epistle , that he vtterly misliketh it , & condemneth it . For thus he saithe , Cyprian in eadem Epist. Acquum est pariter , & iustum , vt vniuscuiusque causa illic audiatur , vbi crimen admissum est : It is meete and right , that euery mannes cause be pleaded in that Countrie , where the faulte was committed , &c. Againe , Oportet eos , quibus praesumus , non circumcursare : It is not meete , that they , ouer whome wee haue Jurisdiction , should renne aboute the Worlde : He meaneth to Rome .

And againe , Nisi paucis desperatis , & perditis Minor videtur esse Authoritas Episcoporum in Aphrica constitutorum , &c. Onlesse a fewe desperate , and wicked menne thinke , the Authoritie of the Bishoppes of Aphrica is lesse , then the Authoritie of the Bishoppes of Rome . By these woordes S. Cyprian maketh the Bishop of Rome equal in Authoritie with him selfe , and other Bishoppes . Wherefore I muste conclude with other woordes of S. Cyprian in the same Epistle : Haec est , Frater , vera dementia , non cogitare , quòd Mendacia non diu fallant : Noctem tam diu esse , quoad illucescat Dies : O my Brother , this in deede is very madnesse , not to thinke , that Lies cannot longe deceiue : The Nighte lasteth no longer , but vntil the Daie beginne to springe .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 1. & . 2.

Or , if there be no perile , that harme maie come to the Churche , what neede is there , to reteine to no pourpose the names of Bishoppes ? For so it is nowe commonly vsed among them . For if there be no Sheepe , that maie straie , why bee they called Shepeheardes ? If there be no Cittie , that maie bee betraied , why bee they called Warchemenne ? If there bee nothing , that maie renne to ruine , why bee they called Pillers ? Anon after the firste Creation of the Worlde , the Churche of God began to spreade abroade , and the same was instructed with the Heauenly Worde , whiche God him selfe pronounced with his owne Mouthe . It was also furnished with Diuine Ceremonies . If was taught by the Sprite of God , by the Patriarches , and Prophetes , & continued so euen til the time , that Christe shewed him selfe to vs in the fleshe . This notwithstanding , how often , O good God , in the meane while , and howe horribly was the same Churche darkened , and decaied ?

Where was that Churche then , when al fleashe vpon Earthe had defiled his owne waie ? Where was it , when amongest the numbre of the Whole Worlde , there were onely eight persones ( & neither they al chaste , and good neither ) whom Goddes wil was shoulde be saued aliue from that Vniuersal destruction , and Mortalitie ? when Elie the Prophete so lamētabldy & bitterly made his moane , 3. Reg. 13. that onely him selfe was leafte of al the Whole Worlde , whiche did truely and dewly worship God ? Esai . 1. and when Esaie saide , The Siluer of Goddes people ( that is , of the Churche ) was become Drosse : and that the same Cittie whiche aforetime had ben faithful , was now become an Harlot : and that in the same there was no parte sounde throughout the whole body , from the head to the foote ? Or els , when Christe him selfe saide , that the House of God was made , by the Phariseis and Priestes , Math. 21. a Denne of theues ? Of a truthe , the Churche , euen as a cornefilde , except it bee eared , manured , tilled , and trimmed , wil in stede of Wheate , bringe foorthe Thistles , Darnel , and Nettels . For this cause did God sende euer among , bothe Prophetes , and Apostles , and laste of al his own Sonne , who might bringe home the people into the right waie , and repaire anewe the tottering Churche after she had erred .

M. Hardinge .

These and the like places haue ben already alleaged , of olde time , against the Catholiques , by the Donatistes , as S. Augustine sheweth : and of late yeeres by youre scholemaister Iohn Caluine of Geneua . We neede not to studie for newe answeres to the argument made out of these and suche other places , mutche fitter for this purpose , then these are , sithe that the same is so wel answered by S. Augustine . Oftentimes ( saithe he ) Goddes worde rebuketh the wicked sortes of the Churche so , De Vnitate Eccle. ca. 12. as though al were suche , and none at al remained good . For thereby we are warned , them in their certaine number to be called al , as mutche to sale , al the children of hel . But Sirs , what if the Churche at the beginning of the worlde , and at the general drowning , was of smal number ? And what if the Synagog were sometime quite extinguished ? Must it therefore folowe , that the church also after that God hath geuen to Christe his Sonne the endes of the worlde to be his possession , Psalm. 3. maie nowe be brought to a fewe , and to faile altogether ? Where was the Churche ( saie ye ) when of al the worlde there were but eight persons , and they onely saued aliue from the vniuersal destruction ? Forsooth they were in Noes Arke . And nowe haue we ‡ ‡ But the same Arke is not the Churche of Rome . our Noes Arke also , in whiche who so euer abideth not , the same is drowned .

Neither were the Prophetes and Apostles sent , nor Christe came him selfe to repaire a newe the Churche , whiche had in faithe wholy erred : but both they were sent , and he came , that it shoulde not wholly erre .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It is true , The Churche in fewe . that ye saie , In the Holy Scriptures this woorde , Al , is often vsed in steede of , Many . And thus , ye saie , it fared with the Synagog of the Iewes : for that then the Faithful were sommetimes broughte vnto a smal number : sommetimes were vtterly decaied , and consumed to nought . And in this sense , ye saie , Elias complained , 3. Regum . 19. that the Prophetes of God were al slaine , & he onely le●te aliue .

But nowe , ye saie , the Churche maie not be brought to a fewe . For God hath geuen to Christe his Sonne the endes of the worlde to bee his possession . Yet Christe him selfe , that best knewe the reache , and limites of his possession , saithe thus , When the Sonne of Manne shal comme , Luke . 21. Ambrosi . in Lucam . lib. 10. Apocalyp. 12. thinke you , he shal finde Faithe in the worlde ? Whereupon S. Ambrose saithe , Tunc Fides rara : Vt ipse , quasi addubitans , Dominus ista dixerit : Then shal Faithe be geason : So that our Lorde spake these woordes , as doubting therof , whether there should be any Faithful leaft , or no. And S. Iohn in his Reuelations saith , Mulier fugit in solitudinem , vbi habet locum paratum à Deo : The wooman ( whereby is meante , not the Synagog of the Iewes , but the Churche of Christe ) fleeth into the wildernesse : where she hath a place prouided of God . By whiche woordes is meante , that in time of Ignorance , and Persecution , the Churche is without Countenaunce , 2. Thessal. 2. and vnknowen . S. Paule saithe , Before the Daie of the Lorde , there shal be a departing from the Faithe of Christe . By these it appeareth , that the decaie of the Churche shal be vniuersal : and that the remanentes shal not bee many . Vincentius Lirinensis . Therefore Vincentius Lirinensis putteth the case on this wise : Quid si nouella aliqua contagio iam non portiunculam tantùm , sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur ? Tunc item prouidebit , vt Antiquitati inhaereat : What if somme newe corruption goe aboute to inuade , not onely somme portion of the Churche , but also the whole vniuersal Churche altogeather ? Then must a Christian man settle him selfe to cleaue to Antiquitie : That is to saie , to folowe the Primitiue Churche of the Apostles , and Ancient Fathers . This case would he neuer haue moued , onlesse he had thought , the Whole vniuersal Churche might happen by somme erroure to be corrupted . Surely S. Chrysostome , Chrysostom . in 1. ad Corinth . Homil. 36. speakinge of the state of the Churche , that he sawe in his time , saithe thus : Videtur Ecclesia hodiè mulieri , quae mansuetudine veteri exciderit , similis : quaeque Symbola tantùm foelicitatis illius quaedam referat : Arcas , & Scrinia rerum pretiosissimarum adhuc retinens , Thesauro destituta . Huic mulieri Ecclesia hodie videtur similis : The Churche this daie is like vnto a woman , that hath quite loste al her olde modestie : and that beareth onely certaine badges , and tokens of her former felicitie : and that , beinge vtterly berefte of the treasures , keepeth onely the Cases , and Boxes of the pretious thinges , she had before . To suche a woman the churche this daie maie be likened . Hieronym . in vita Malchi . Likewise S. Hierome , speaking of that he sawe by experience in his time , saithe thus : Ecclesia , postquam ad Christianos principes peruenit , potentia quidem , & diuitijs maior , sed virtutibus minor facta est : The churche , after that she is comme to Christian Princes , in deede is greatter in wealth , and richesse : But in vertue , and holinesse she is lesse , then she was before . Therefore saith Chrysostome , Haec dico , Chrysostom . Ad Populum Antioch . Homil. 4. ne quis miretur Ecclesiam propter multitudinem : sed vt ipsam probatam reddere studeamus : Thus mutche I tel you , not that wee shoulde auaunce the Churche bicause of the Multitude , and encrease of people : But that wee shoulde endeuour to adourne her with vertue .

Nowe , Bernard . in Conuersione Pauli , Sermo. 1. where ye saie , the Churche nowe can neuer be brought to fewe S. , Bernarde saithe thus vnto God , by waie of moane : Coniurasse videtur contra te vniuersitas populi Christiani , à minimo vsque ad maximum : A planta pedis vsque ad verticem non est sanitas vlla . Egressa est iniquitas à Senioribus Iudicibus Vicarijs tuis , qui videntur regere populum tuum : O Lorde , the Vniuersal Companie of Christian people seemeth to haue conspired againste thee , from the lowest vnto the highest . From the sole of the foote , vnto the croune of the heade , there is no whole place . Iniquitie and wickednesse is gonne foorthe from thy Elder Iudges , Ci●a●ur ab Holco●o in Sapier● . Lectio . 23. that be thy Vicares , that are thought to rule thy people . Againe he saithe , Intestinalis , & insanabilis est plaga Ecclesiae : the wounde of the Churche is inwarde , and paste recouer . Likewise Baptista Mantuane complaineth vnto Pope Leo :

Sancte Pater succurre Leo , Baptis . Mantuanus , Fastor . 4. Respublica Christi Labitur : aegrotatque Fides iam proxima morti .

Healpe , Holy Father Leo : Christes Common Wealth ( that is , the Churche ) is falling downe : the Faithe is sicke , and like to die .

So likewise saithe he , Fortalitium Fidei , lib. 5. that wrote the Forte of Faithe , Et si in hoc Daemonum bello cadant Religiosi Principes , & Milites , & Praelati Ecclesiastici , & Subditi , tamen semper manent aliqui , in quibus saluatur Veritas Fidei , & Iustificatio bonae Conscientiae . Et si non nisi duo homines remanerent in mundo , in eis saluaretur Ecclesia , quae est Vnitas Fidelium : In this battel of Diuelles , notwithstandinge the Godly Princes , the Souldiers , the Ecclesiastical Prelates , and Subiectes be ouerthrowen , yet euermore somme remaine , in whome the Truethe of Faithe , and the Righteousnesse of a good Conscience is preserued . And although there remained but two menne in the Worlde , yet in the same twoo the Churche of God shoulde be saued : Which Churche is the Vnitie of the Faitheful . The Churche of God is often compared to the Moone , August . Epist. 48. which sometimes is ful , & round , & bright , & glorious : sommetimes is wholy shadowed & drowned in darkenesse : and yet notwithstanding is not consumed , but in Substance remaineth stil . S. Augustine saith , Aliquando in Solo Abel Ecclesia erat : et expugnatus est à fratre malo , & perdito Caim . August . in Psal. 128. Aliquando in Solo Enoch Ecclesia erat : & translatus est ab iniquis : Sommetime the Churche was in onely Abel : and he was destroied by his brother wicked Caim . Sommetime the Churche was onely in ●noch : and he was translated from the wicked . Your owne Panormitane saithe : Extra de Electione . Significas●i . Abb. Possibile est , quòd Vera Fides Christi remaneret in Vno Solo: Atque ita verum est dicete , quòd Fides non deficit in Ecclesia . Hoc patuit post Passionem Christi . Nam Fides remansit tantùm in Beata Virgine . Quia omnes alij scandalizati sunt . Tamen Christus ante Passionem orauerat pro Petro , vt non deficeret Fides sua . Ergo , Ecclesia non dicitur deficere , nec etiam errare , si remanet Vera Fides in Vno Solo , It is possible , the trewe Faithe of Christe maie remaine in one alone : And so it is true to saie , that Faithe faileth not in the Churche . This thinge appeared after Christes Passion . For then the Faithe remained onely in the Blessed Virgin . For al the reste ( bothe the Apostles , and others ) were offended . Yet had Christe praied for Peter before his Passion , that his Faithe shoulde not faile . Therefore we maie not saie , the Churche faileth , or erreth , if the Faithe remaine but in one alone .

Againe , August . in Psal. 88. S. Augustine saithe , Non tamen propter hos remanebit Christus sine Haereditate . Nouit Dominus , qui sint sui , &c. Yet shal not Christe , bicause of the wicked , remaine without his Enheritance . The Lord knoweth who be his own .

The Apologie , Cap. 13. Diuision . 1.

But leste somme man should saie , that the foresaid thinges happened onely in the time of the Lawe , of Shadowes , and of Infancie , when the Truth lay hid vnder Figures , and Ceremonies , when nothing as yet was brought to perfection , when the Lawe was not grauen in mennes hartes , but in stone ; ( And yet were that but a foolishe distinction ) for euen at those daies there was the very same God , that is nowe , the same Spirite , the same Christe , the same Faith , the same Doctrine , The Churche of Rome maie erre . the same Hope , the same Enheritaunce , the same Couenaunt , and the same Efficacie and Vertue of Gods Woorde : Eusebius also saith , Al the Faithful , euen from Adam vntil Christe , were in dede very Christians , though they were not so termed ) : But , as I said , leste menne should thus saie stil , Paule the Apostle founde the like faultes , & falles euen then in the prime , and chiefe of the Gospel , in the greattest perfection , & in the light : so that he was compelled to write in this sorte to the Galathians , whom he had wel before instructed : I feare me ( quod he ) leste I haue laboured amongest you to smal pourpose , and leste ye haue heard the Gospel in vaine . O my litle Children , of whom I trauaile anewe , til Christe be fashoned againe in you : And as for the Churche of the Corinthians , how fowlely it was defiled , it is nothing needeful to rehearse . Now tel me , might the Churches of the Galathians , and Corinthians goe amisse , and the Churche of Rome alone may it not faile nor goe amisse ?

M. Hardinge .

We aunswere , that in partes of the churche , faultes may be founde , and sundrie men that seme to be of the Churche , and be in the Churche in deede , maie fal and perish : al this we graunt . * * we speake not of the whole Vniuersal church but onely of the Churche of Rome . But that the whole , catholique , and vniuersal Churche , whose faith we professe , may erre , fall , and faile : that we denie vtterly , whiche had ben this Defenders part to proue , els he talketh to no purpose . And where S. Paule rebuketh al the Galathians in general , as though al had forsaken their faith , he doth it after the wonte of the Prophetes , both in that and other epistles , for the greater partes sake , reprehending al , though some deserue praise . As for the Corinthians , though many among them were faulty , yet who considereth how be beginneth his epistle to them , shal finde that he ‡ ‡ But the same Churche this daie is subiect to the Religion of Mahomete , and is no Churche . acknowleged a Churche among them . For thus he writeth : Paule by vocation by Apostle , &c. to the churche of God which is at Corinth . &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

That in any particulare Churche faultes may be founde , that , ye saie , ye wil confesse . But that the whole Catholique Vniuersal Churche may erre and faile , that , you saie , ye denie vtterly .

Notwithstandinge it is certaine , that the Churches of Corinthe , and Galatia , and sundrie others , are nowe , not in any Particulare portion , but thorowly departed from the Faith : and are nowe wholy subiecte to the Turke .

This therfore muste needes be your meaning , that al be it al other Particulare Churches throughout the worlde happen to erre , yet the Churche of Rome , that is to saie , the Pope and his Cardinalles , can neuer erre . This Lesson , I trowe , Pet. de Palude , De potestate Curatorum , Ar. 6. ye learned of Petrus de Palude : For neither Christe , nor any of his Apostles euer taught it you . This woorthy Doctour saith thus : Tota Ecclesia Petri non potest à Fide deficere . Omnes autem Ecclesiae Apostolorum omnium possunt deficere à Fide totaliter , indigentes ab Ecclesia Petri confirmari : The whole Churche of Peter , cannot wholy faile from the Faithe . But al the other Churches of al the Apostles may faile wholy from the Faithe , hauinge neede to be confirmed by the Churche of Peter . M. Hard. fo. 16. b And to this ende , you your selfe cal the Romaine Faith , the Catholique Faith : making no maner difference betweene either other . Dist. 21. Omnes . And therefore Pope Nicolas thus auaunceth , and thundreth out his owne Authoritie : Non quaelibet Terrena Sententia , sed illud Verbum , quo constructum est Coelum , & Terra , per quod denique omnia condita sunt Elementa , Romanam fundauit Ecclesiam : Not any worldly Sectence , but the selfe same Woorde , where by Heauen , and Earthe was made , and whereby al the Elementes were created , was it , that founded the Churche of Rome . By whiche woordes he meaneth , that the Romaine Faithe shal stande as faste , as the Fundations of Heauen , and Earthe . Euen so Peter assured his promisse vnto Christe : Although , Matthae . 26. saide he , al others denie thee , yet I alone wil not denie thee . No , though I shoulde presently die with thee , yet I onely wil neuer denie thee . Neuerthelesse , when it came to trial , the same Peter denied him firste .

Nowe , that the Churches of Rome , whiche you cal the Catholique Churche , maie erre , & be foresaken of God , it is euident by the plaine woordes of S. Paule . For thus he writeth euen vnto the Churche of Rome : Roman. 11. Quòd si aliqui ex ramis fracti sunt &c. If any of the boughes be broken of , and thou , beinge a wilde Oliue tree arte graffed into the natural Oliue , and made Partaker of the roote , and of the fatnesse thereof , boaste not thee selfe againste the boughes . If thou boaste , ( remember ) thou bearest not the Roote : but the roote beareth thee . Thou wilte saie , The boughes are broken of , that I might be graffed in . Wel , they are broken of for theire Infidelitie : but thou standest faste by Faithe . Be not highe minded : but stande in awe . Seeinge God hath not spared the Natural boughes , leste happily he spare not thee . See therefore the goodnesse , and the sharpenesse of God : His sharpenesse towardes them , that are fallen awaie : but his goodnesse towardes thee , if thou continewe , Alioqui & tu excidèris . and remaine in goodnesse . Otherwise thou ( beinge the Churche of Rome ) shalte likewise be smitten of . Hereby it is plaine , that the Churche of Rome maie faile , and fal from God , no lesse , then other like Churches . For otherwise this aduertisement of S. Paule had benne in vaine .

Therefore Hormisda , Hormisda pp , ad Episcopos Hispaniae . beinge him selfe Bishop of Rome , writeth thus , Dilectissimi Fratres , continuas preces ad Dominum fundamus , & iugi deprecatione poscamus , vt & institutione , & opere illi , cuius esse membra cupimūs , adhaereamus . nec vnquam ab illa via , quae Christus est , deuio tramite declinemus : ne ab eo iustè , quem impiè reliquerimus , deseramur : My dearely beloued Brethren , let vs Praie vnto God , that bothe by profession , and by order of life , we maie cleaue to him , whose Members we desire to be : and that by any crooked path we neuer turne from that waie , whiche is Christe : leste wee ( beinge the Churche of Rome ) be iustely forsaken of him , whom wickedly wee haue forsaken . Thus would not the Pope him selfe haue written in the behoufe of the Churche of Rome , yf he had thought , the same Churche coulde neuer haue erred . Chrysostom . De varijs locis in Matth. Homi. 20. To be shorte , Chrysostome saithe , Ecclesia , quocunque modo egerit contra voluntatem Christi , abijci digna est . Non autem abijcitur propter longanimitatem Christi , nisi sola causa Transgressionis : The Churche , by what waie so euer shee doo againste the wil of Christe , is woorthy to be geuen ouer . Yet through the patience of Christe , shee is neuer geuen ouer , but onely for breakinge his commaundementes .

The Apologie , Cap. 13. Diuision . 2.

Surely Christe prophesied longe before of his Churche , that the time shoulde comme , when Desolation shoulde stande in the Holy Place . 2. Thessal . Daniel . 8. And S. Paule saith , that Antichriste shoulde once set vp his owne Tabernacle , & stately Seate in the Temple of God : and that the time should be , when menne should not awaie with Holsome Doctrine , but be turned backe vnto fables , and lies , & that within the very Churche . 1. Petri. 2. Daniel . 8. Peter likewise telleth , how there shoulde be teachers of lies in the Churche of Christe : Daniel the Prophete speakinge of the later times of Antichriste , Truthe , saithe he , in that season shal be throwen vnder foote , & trodden vpon in the world . And Christe saithe , Abomination of Desolation The calamitie and confusion of thinges shal be so excedinge greate , Matth. 24. that euen the chosen , if it were possible , shal be broughte into erroure : & that these thinges shal comme to passe , not emongest the Gentiles , and Turkes , but euen in the Holy Place , in the Temple of God , in the Churche , & in the Companie & Felowship of those , whiche professe the name of Christe .

M. Hardinge .

The Prophecie of Daniel concerninge the Abomination of Desolation , whereof Christe spake in the Gospell , wee thinke with the ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the beste learned Diuines haue thought otherwise : As it shal appeare . best learned Diuines , that it is to be referred , not to the ende of the worlde , Daniel . 9. Matth. 24. nor to the driuinge away of the Faithe by Antichriste , as ye imagine , but to the consummation and final endinge of the Synagog .

Touchinge that ye saie of Antichriste , it maketh nothinge againste the Catholikes , against whose Faithe he preuaileth not . Mary , many good menne thinke , that he hath already begonne to set vp his Tabernacle , and stately seate in the hartes of many , whiche ought to be the Temple of God , by his foreronners Martine Luther , Zuinglius , Caluine , and you their scholers , with the reste of that wicked rable . Where ye adde , and that within the Churche , it is * * Vntruthe For S. Paule saithe plainely , He shal sit in the Temple of God . 2. Thessal. 2. more then ye founde in S. Paule . But we vnderstande your good will , though wee finde you without euer a good reason . And ye wee graunte , 1. ●oan . 2. ye came out from vs , as S. Iohn saithe , but yee were not of vs . For if ye had benne of vs , yee woulde haue taried with vs . So maie the saieinge of S. Peter be referred to you , and likewise that of Daniel , whiche ye alleage , though the woordes be not in Daniel . For your schoolemaisters and you are a limme of Antichriste and ye labour what ye can , to ouerthrowe and treade vnder foote the true Faithe of the Churche , and the Catholike Religion .

The B. of Sarisburie .

What néeded you , 2. Thessalon . 2. Nicol. Lyra. Hieronym . ad Algasiam . Hippolytus ma● . M. Hardinge , to talke so mutche in the fauoure of Antichriste ? Or , why should you be gréeued , to heare him called the Abomination of Desolation ? S. Paule calleth Antichriste , the Man of Sinne : Somme saie , He shal be wholy possessed of the Diuel : Your owne Hippolytus saithe , He shal be the Diuel him selfe . Yet haue fewe menne founde them selues gréeued with sutche saieinges .

I knowe , the Woordes of Christe , & of Daniel , by diuers Expositions , haue beene diuersly applied . Yet maie ye not wel thus condemne al their Iudgementes , that haue applied the same to Antichriste . Origen one of the moste Ancient Fathers of the Churche , entreatinge of Antichriste , contrarie to your Exposition , saith thus : Origen . in Matthae . Tracta . 29. Chrysost in Opere Imperfecto , Homil. 49. Ipse est Abominatio Desolationis : Antichriste is the Abomination of Desolation .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Hic Antichristus dicitur Abominatio Desolationis : quia multorum Christianorum animas facturus est desolatas à Deo : This Antichriste is called the Abomination of Desolation : for that he shal cause the Soules of many Christianes to be desolate , and foresaken of God . Gregorius Nazianzenus saithe , Antichristus veniet in Desolatione Mundi . Gregor. Nazian. Significatio in Ezechielem . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Est enim Abominatio Desolationis : Antichriste shal comme in the Desolation of the worlde : For he is the Abomination of Desolation . S. Hierome saithe , Abominatio Desolationis intelligi potest omne dogma peruersum : By the Abomination of Desolation we maie vnderstande any manner Peruerse Doctrine : Whereof , no doubte , in Antichriste shal wante no stoare . And againe , speakinge namely of the Man of wickednesse , the Aduersarie of Christe , whiche is Antichriste , that lifteth vp him selfe aboue al , Hieronym . in Matth. Cap. 24. Eodem loco . Ambrasi in Lucam , Lib. 10. Ca. 21. that is called God , He saithe , Abominatio Desolationum erit in Templo , vsque ad Consummationem temporis : The Abomination of Desolation shal stande in the Churche , vntil the Consummation , or ende of time .

S. Ambrose saithe , Abominatio Desolationis execrabilis Aduentus Antichristi est : The Abomination of Desolation is the cursed comminge of Antichriste . S. Hilarie expounding these selfe same woordes of Christe , When ye shal see the Abomination of Desolation standinge in the Holy place , saith thus , De Antichristi temporibus haec loquutus est : Hilari . in Matthae . Canon . 25. Theodoret. in Daniel . Ca. 12. Eusebius Emissen . Christe spake these woordes of the time of Antichriste . Likewise saith Theodoretus , writinge vpon the Prophete Daniel , Abominationem Desolationis ipsum vocat Antichristum . And bisides others , the moste Ancient , & most Catholique Fathers , likewise saithe Eusebius Emissenus in a special Homilie to this purpose . Now , M. Hardinge , whereas ye so certainely assure your selfe , that these woordes of christe maie in no wise be taken of the confusion , & horroure , y● shal be at the ende of the worlde , bisides al these Learned & Godly Fathers , I beseche you , consider the whole drifte , Matthae . 24. & circumstance of the place , & the woordes , that Christe spake immediately before . The Apostles demaunded him this question : What is the token of thy Comminge ( to Iudgement ) and of the ende of the worlde ? To this question Christe answeareth in this wise : Take heede , that noman deceiue you . Many shal comme in my name , and shal saie , I am Christe : and shal deceiue many . Yee shal heare of warres , and talkes of warres : But be not yee troubled : Al these thinges must happen : yet this is not the ende , &c. Many Passe Prophetes shal rise , and shal deceiue many . Iniquitie shal encrease : Charitie shal waxe colde . Who so continueth vnto the ende , he shal be saued . And this Gospel of the Kingedome shal be Preached in al the worlde , for a witnesse vnto al Nations , and then shal come the ende . The nexte woordes , that folowe , are these , Therefore when ye shal see the Abomination of Desolation , that was spoken of by Daniel , &c. Thus maie yee sée , M. Harding , by the very course , & te●oure of Christes answeare , that , if the Iudgemente , be the Iudgemente : if the Ende , be the Ende : if the Worlde , be the Worlde , then must these woordes needes haue relation to the Ende of the worlde : what so euer any of your beste Learned Diuines , of whom ye haue hitherto named none , haue taught , or saide to the contrarie . Antichriste standinge in the Churche of God . Whereas wee saie , Antichriste shal stande euen within the Churche , y● , ye saie , we finde not in S. Paule . Notwithstandinge , oure good wil , ye saie , ye vnderstande : although ye finde in vs neuer a good Reason . As for the goodnesse of our Reasons , wée wil not striue . But whether S. Paule saie , the Antichriste shal stande in the Churche , or no , let vs be iudged by S. Paule . His woordes be plaine Adeò , 2. Thessalon . 2. vt in Templo Dei sedeat , tanquam Deus : So that he wil sitte in the Churche of God , as if he were God . If the Churche of God , be the Churche , then dothe S. Paule saie , Antichriste shal sitte within the Churche . In like sense Christe saith , Antichriste shal sitte in the Holy place : Matthae . 24. August . De Ciuita . Dei . Li. 20 , Cap. 19. In eodem Cap. By whiche woordes many of the best learned Fathers haue expounded , the Churche . S. Augustine saith , Non enim Templum alicuius Idoli , aut Daemonis , Templum Dei Apostolus diceret : For the Temple of an Idole , or of a Diuel , the Apostle would neuer cal the Temple of God . And he addeth further , Quidam putant rectiùs Latinè dici , sicut in Graeco est , non , in Templo Dei , sed , in Templum Dei sedeat : Tanquam ipse sit Templum Dei , quod est Ecclesia . Sicut dicimus , Sedet in amicum , id est , velut amicus : Somme menne thinke , we should better reade it in Latine , 2. Thessalon . 2. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . as it is in the Greeke , not , He sitteth in the Temple of God , but , he sitteth For , or As the Temple of God : As if he him selfe were the Temple of God , whiche is the Churche . As we saie , He sitteth for a Frende , that is , He sitteth as a Frende . Here S. Augustine saithe , Antichriste shal not onely sitte in the Churche , but also shal shewe him selfe in outwarde appearance , Herueus De Potestate Pap. Ca. 23. as if he him selfe were the Churche it selfe . Now , M. Hardinge , who this shoulde be , I reporte me to your owne Doctoures , of whom one hath written thus , Papa quodammodò virtualiter est tota Ecclesia : The Pope in a manner by waie of vertue , or Power , Hieronym . in Ca. 24. Matthaei , Chrysostom . in Opere imperfecto , Homil. 49. is the whole Vniuersal Churche . S. Hierome saith , Antichristus stabit in loco Sancto , id est , in Ecclesia , & se ostendet , vt Deum : Antichriste shal stande in the Holy place , that is to saie , in the Churche : and shal shewe him selfe , as if he were God . S. Chrysostome saithe , Incident in Abominationem Desolationis , quae stat in Sanctis Ecclesiae locis : They shal fal into the Abomination of Desolation , that standeth in the Holy places of the Churche .

S. Hilarie saithe , Hilarius contra Auxentium . Vnum moneo : Cauete Antichristum . Malè enim vos parietum ch. coepit : Abomination of Desolation 2. Thessal 2. male Ecclesiam Dei in tectis , aedificijsque veneramini . Anne ambiguum est , in ijs Antichristum esse sessurum ? One thinge I reade you : Beware of Antichriste . For it is not wel , that ye should be thus in loue with walles : It is not wel , that ye should honoure the Churche in houses , and buildinges . Is there any doubte , but Antichriste shal sitte in the same ? S. Paule saithe , Mysterium iniquitatis operatur : ( Sathan ) woorketh the Mysterie of iniquitie : That is to saie , he openeth not him selfe , but what so euer he doothe , he doothe it in couerte . Vpon whiche woordes Anselmus saith , Anselmus . Iniquitas eorum est Mystica , id est , Pietatis nomine pallia●a : The iniquitie of them is Mystical , that is to saie , It is cloked , and coered with the name of Godlinesse .

Therefore S. Chrysostom in opere Imperfe . Homil. 49. Chrysostome saithe , Christiani , qui sunt in Christianitate , volentes accipere firmitatem Fidei verae , ad nullam rem fugiant , nisi ad Scripturas , &c. The Christianes , that be in Christendome , willinge to haue the stedfastnesse of the true Faithe , let them flee to none other thinge , but onely to the Scriptures . Otherwise , if they looke to any thinge els , they shal be offended , and perishe , not knowinge whiche is the true Churche : And so shal they fal into the Abomination of Desolation , that standeth in the Holy places of the Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 1. & . 2.

Albeit these same warninges alone maie suffice a wiseman , to take heede , he doo not suffer him selfe rashely to be deceiued with the name of the Churche , and not to staie , to make further inquisition thereof by Goddes Woorde , yet biside al this , many Fathers also , many learned , and Godly menne , haue often and carefully complained , how al these thinges haue chaunced in their life time . For euen in the middest of that thicke miste of darkenesse , God would yet there should be somme , whoe , though they gaue not a cleare , and brighte light , yet should kendle , were it but somme sparke , whiche menne , beinge in the darkenesse , might espie .

Hilarius , when thinges as yet were almoste vncorrupte , and in good case too , Contra Auxentium . Yee are il deceiued , saith he , with the loue of walles : ye doo il woorship the Churche , in that ye woorship it in houses and buildinges : yee doo il bringe in the name of peace vnder roofes . Is there any doubte , but Antichriste wil haue his Seate vnder the same ? I rather recken Hilles , woodes , Pooles , Marishes , Prisons , and Quauemires , to be places of more safetie : for in these the Prophetes either abidinge of their accorde , or forced thither by violence , didde Prophesie by the Spirite of God .

Gregorie , as one , whiche perceiued , and foresawe in his minde the wracke of al thinges , wrote thus of Iohan Bishop of Constantinople , the firste of al others , that commaunded him selfe to bee called by this newe name , the Vniuersal Bishop of whole Christes Church : Gregor. Lib. 4. Ad Mauritium . Yf the Churche , saith he , shal depende vpon one manne , it wil soone fal downe to the grounde . Who is he that seeth not how this is comme to passe longe sithence ? For longe agone hath the Bishop of Rome willed to haue the whole Churche depende vpon him selfe alone . Wherefore it is no marueile , though it be cleane fallen downe longe agone .

M. Hardinge .

Ye make a foule lie , Syr defender , vpon S. Gregorie . The Woordes you recite , be your owne , not his . Is it not inough to lie your selfe , as you doo very often , but that you father lies also vpon the Doctoursi Thankes be to God , that so ye bewraie the weakenesse of your cause . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he writeth it often . Reade the Answeare . Neither in any Epistle to Iohn Bishop of Constantinople , as you saie in your Apologie , nor in any to Mauritius the Emperoure , as you haue noted in the margent , writeth Gregorie , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , more pee●●she , then the former . that if the Churche shall depende vpon one man , the whole shal fall to grounde . I see well , you would faine Gregorie had so written . And if he had , yet your argument had benne naught . For you take not the right minor , whiche should haue benne this , The Church doth depende vpon one man , if you would make your reason good , and after the rules of Logike . For where your minor speaketh onely of the Popes will , thereof your conclusion foloweth not . Dispose your propositions in the forme of a Syllogisme , and you shall espie your owne feble reason . And if you make that your minor , then graunte you that , whiche you denie .

The woordes whereof you gather this pretensed saieinge of Gregorie , Epist. lib. 4. ad Maurit . Epist. 32. as I suppose , be these : If any man hath caught vnto himselfe that name ( of Vniuersall Bishop ) in that Churche ( of Constantinople ) then the whole Churche , ( whiche God forbid ) fell from his state , when he that is called Vniuersal , fell . Gregorie vnderstandeth by the name , Vniuersall Bishop , as him selfe declareth in many places . * * A manifeste vntruthe without witte . suche a one , as is a Bishop altogether and onely , so as there be no other Bishop besides him . Now if it were graunted , that the Bishop of Constantinople were this one and onely Vniuersal Bishop , this inconuenience would folowe , that with the fall of that Vniuersall Bishop , the Vniuersall Churche also fell . For where the Churche is , there be Bishoppes : and where be Bishoppes , there is the Churche : and a ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Christe neuer gaue out any sutche Commission . Bishop Vniuersall , by Gregorie , is as muche as all Bishoppes . That this beinge graunted , the whole Churche is fallen from the Faithe , thus he proueth . For ( saithe he ) the Bishoppes of Constant inople haue fallen into the goulfe of great and detestable Heresies : as Nestorius , who thinkinge Christe to be two persones , and beleuinge that God coulde not be made man , ranne to a Iewishe Infidelitie : and as Macedonius , who denied the holy Ghost to be God . Wherefore if the B. of Constantinople be the Vniuersall Bishop , accordinge to the sense aforesaide , then at the fall of him from the Faithe , as when those two before named fell , the Churche also falleth , as then by this reason , when they were Bishops , it fell . Thus reasoneth S. Gregorie in that Epistle to Mauritius . But because to Gregorie it semeth very farre from reason , and incredible , that the Churche should fall from the Faithe , and faile : therefore he enucigheth againste Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople for chalenginge that name of Vniuersal Bishop , and concludeth that the * * Vntruthe , fonde , and wilful . For S. Gregorie speaketh these woordes nomore of the B. of Constantinople , then of the B. of Rome . Bishop of that See in any wise can not so be .

But if the woorde , Vn●uersall , signifie a soueraintie of charge , and Supremacie of Gouernement ouer the whole Churche , ‡ ‡ Here M. Hard. recanteth his errour . For before he saide . These woordes belonge onely to the Pope . whiche Christe committed to Peter , and in Peter to his Successours the Bishoppes of Rome , Iohn . 21. when he saide , Feede my Shepe : in this sense it is not impious nor erroneus , nor contrary to the minde of S. Gregorie , to call the Successour of Peter , Christes vicare in Earth , the Vniuersal Bishop , * * This same was it , that Gregorie reproued : For thus he writeth , Cuncta Christi Membra tibi conaris Vniuersalis appellatione supponere : Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. that is to saie , the highest of al , and hauinge power ouer all other Bishoppes , and Bishop of the Vniuersall Churche . And , as Christe gaue to S. Peter and his successours , for the benefite of his Churche , a Supreme auctoritie and power ▪ so for the same Churches sake , Iohn . 14. for whose loue he deliuered him selfe to death , Luke . 22. by petition made to his Father , he obteined for him and his successours the Priuilege of this supreme and moste excellente grace , that their Faithe shoulde neuer faile . In consideration of whiche singular Priuilege , obteined by Christe and * * Vntruthe , vtterly voide of shame . graunted to the see Apostolike , and to none other , Gregorie rebuketh Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople so much , as one that presumptuously vsurped that newe name of vniuersal Bishop against the statutes of the Gospel , and against the Decrees of the Canons .

To conclude , if either Gregorie , or any other man shoulde sa●e , that the Churche dependeth vpon one man : he mighte seeme to saie truthe , meaninge rightly , and that not alone , nor without good Authoritie . Contra Luciferian . For suche a saieinge we finde vttered by S. Ierome . The safetie of the Churche ( saithe he ) dependeth vpon the dignitie of the highest Priesie , who if he haue not auctoritie peerlesse and aboue all other , there will be so many Schismes in the Churche , as there be Priestes . Which peerlesse auctoritie aboue all other , as S. Hierome in that place dothe attribute to ‡ to the Bishop of euery Dioces directly , Iohn . 21. so consequently to Peters Successor , to whom it was saide , Feede my Sheepe . For by what reason in eche Dioces it behoueth one Prieste to be highes●ouer other Priestes , The Vniuersal Churche falleth . by the same and in like proportion nolesse it behoueth , that in the whole Churche one Bishop be highest ouer other Bishoppes . I meane , for auoidinge Schismes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Yf yée had better looked on your Bookes , M. Hardinge , ye woulde not haue benne so hasty in dealinge Lies . Wée falsifie not that good Fathers Woordes : but reporte them truely , as wée finde them . For thus he writeth in sundrie places , of Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople , that firste auanced him selfe aboue al his Brethren , and required to be called the Vniuersal Bishop of al the worlde : Vniuersa Ecclesia â statu suo corruit , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 32 quando is , qui appellatur Vniuersalis , cadit : The whole Vniuersal Churche falleth from her state , when he falleth , that is called the Vniuersal Bishop . This is no Lie , M. Hardinge : Conferre the places : & yée shal finde the woordes , as wee reporte them . It standeth not , neither with your profession , nor with your modestie , so vncourteously to vse your tongue . We neither Lie our selues , nor father Lies vpon the Doctoures . God be thanked , his cause is sutche , as maie wel be maineteined without Lies .

But , to put you further oute of doubte , the sense of these woordes ye maie finde often vttered by S. Gregorie , in other places . Vnto Anastasius , the Bishop of Antioche , Gregor. Lib. 6. Episto . 24. he writeth thus : Vt de honoris vestri iniuria taceam , si vnus Episcopus vocatur Vniuersalis , vniuersa Ecclesia corruit , si Vnus Vniuersus cadit : To dissemble the iniurie donne to your Honoure , if one Bishop be called Vniuersal , then if that One Vniuersal Bishop fal , the whole Vniuersal Churche goeth to grounde .

Againe he saithe in the same Epistle , Gregor. in eadem Epistola . Vos eandem causam Nullam dicere non debetis . Quia , si hanc aequanimiter portamus , Vniuersae Ecclesiae Fidem corrumpimus : Ye maie not saie , This is a mater of no importance . For , if wee patiently beare these thinges , wee destroie the Faithe of the Vniuersal Churche .

Againe he saithe , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epistol. 39. In isto Scelesto vocabulo consentire , nihil aliud est , quàm Fidem perdere : To consente vnto this wicked Name , is nothinge els , but to lose the Faithe .

Againe , Gregor. Li. 4. Epist. 52. & . 55. Flens dico : Gemens denuntio : Quia cùm Sacerdotalis Ordo intus cecidit , foris diu stare non poterit : I speake it with teares : I tel it with sighe of Harte : For , seeinge the Order of Priesthoode is fallen within , it cannot nowe stande longe without

Againe , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 36. Diabolus ita validè in quibusdam Ecclesiae necessarijs Membris dentes figit , vt nulli sit dubium , quin , nisi vnanimiter , fauente Domino , cunctorum prouida Pastorum turba concurrat , omne , quod absit , citiùs ouile dilaniet : The Diuel so strongely fasteneth his Teeth in the necessarie Members of the Churche , that , onlesse by Goddes Grace , the prouident companie of al Bishoppes ioine togeather , there is no doubte , but he wil soone destroie the whole flocke : whiche God forbid . And againe he compareth the Pride of this name with the Pride of Antichriste : and saithe , that the one shal woorke the Confusion of the Churche , Gregor. Lib. 6. Epist. 30. no lesse , then the other . Thus he saith , Nunquid non , cùm se Antichristus veniens Deum dixerit , Deus . friuolum vald● erit ? Sed ramen nimis perniciosum . Si quantitatem vocis attendimus , Duae sunt Syllabae : si pondus iniquitatis , Vniuersa pernicies : When Antichriste shal comme , and cal him selfe God , shal it not be a very trifle ? Yet shal it be marueilous hurteful ( to the Churche ) . If ye weigh the quantitie of the woorde , it standeth in twoo Syllables : If ye consider the weight of the wickednesse , it is an Vniuersal destruction . These are no Lies , as it liketh you to calle them , M. Harding : They are very plaine woordes : it is the vndoubted meaninge of S. Gregorie . And therefore he calleth this claime of Vniuersal Power , a Superstitio●●s , a Profane , an Vngodly , & a Wicked title : a name of Hypocrisie : & a name of Blasphemie .

To auoide these Authorities , beinge so pregnant , & so cleare , ye are faine to tansie sundrie prety shiftes , sutche as , neither Iohn , nor Gregorie was euer hable to vnderstande .

Firste ye saie , One Onely Bishop . This Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople meante by this title , vtterly to disgrade al Bishoppes , and Patriarkes , what so euer : and to make him selfe the Onely Bishop of al the world . It is a childish laboure , to seeke a knotte in a russhe , & to imagine doubtes , where the case is cleare . It is certaine , that the Bishop of Constantinople meante none other Vniuersal Authoritie , then that now is claimed by the Pope . Therefore it is thus noted in the Booke , called Chronicon Eusebij , Chronicon Eusebij , Anno. 607. Institntum fuit , vt Romana Ecclesia Caput esset Ecclesiarum omnium : cùm priùs Constantinopolitana id vsurpare tentasset : Order was taken , that the Churche of Rome should be the Head of al Churches : whereas before , the Churche of Constantinople had attempted to Vsurpe the same . Whiche thinge is also noted by Matthias Palmerius of Florence , & that without any manner difference , or change of woordes . Matthias Palmerius . Sabellicus saithe , Bonifaciusz . egit ab initio administrationis suae cum Phoca , Sabellicus Ennead. 8. lib. 6. vt Romana Ecclesia esset omnium aliarum Caput . Estque id aegrè , nec sine multa contentione Apostolicae Sedi datum . Graeci id ad se decus trahentes , ibi Christianae Pietatis Arcem esse oportere aiebant , vbi & Imperij : Bonifacius the thirde , at the firste enitre into his office , was an earneste suiter vnto the Emperoure Phocas , that the Churche of Rome might be the Heade of al other Churches . Whiche thinge hardely , and with greate laboure was graunted to the Apostolique See of Rome . The Grecians drawinge the same honoure vnto them selues , saide , It was necessarie , the Heade of Christian Religion shoulde be there , where as was the Heade of the Empiere : whiche was at Constantinople .

Likewise writeth Vrspergensis : Vrspergensis in Phoca . At the requeste and suite of Pope Boniface , Phocas the Emperoure appointed the See of the Apostolique Churche of Rome , to be the Heade of al Churches . For before that time , the Churche of Constantinople wrote her selfe the First , or Chiefe of al others .

By these it maie appeare , M. Hardinge , it was greate folie for you , thus to ca●●●l at the name . For the Power , and Iurisdiction , then claimed by the Bishop of Constantinople , and afterwarde vsurped by the Bishoppes of Rome ▪ was al one . Therefore S. Gregorie saithe to Iohn the Bishop of Constantinople , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 38. Tu quid Christo , Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Capiti , in Extremi Iudicij dicturus es examine , qui Cuncta cius membra tibimet conaris Vniuersalis appellatione supponere ? What answeare wilte thou make , at the trial of the Laste Judgement , vnto Christe the Head of the Vniuersal Churche , whiche thus by the name of Vniuersal Bishop , seekeste to make al his Members subiecte vnto thee ? Euen the selfe same Vniuersal power claimeth nowe the Bishop of Rome : and séeketh to make al other Bishoppes through the world , and the whole Vniuersal Churche of Christe , thral and subiecte vnto him .

The Bishoppes of Constantinople felle sommetimes into Heresies , & were deceiued . But Christe hath praied for Peter , that his Faithe shoulde not false . Ergo , saie you , The Bishop of Rome can neuer possibly be deceiued . O , M. Hardinge , let shame once force you to refraine these Vanities . I doubte not , but hereafter in place conuenient I shal be hable to shewe , that there haue benne mee Heretiques placed in S. Peters Chaire , euen in the See of Rome , then you are hable to finde in any one Sée within Europe .

Verily , S. Gregories reason , touching the danger , & Confusion of the Churche , weigheth nomore againste the Bishop of Constantinople , then againste the Bishop of Rome . For thus he saithe , If he , that is called the Vniuersal Bishop , happen to erre , then needes must the whole Vniuersal Churche fal togeather with him into Erroure , And therefore if ye had perused the Councel of Basile , ye shoulde haue founde this selfe same reason alleged there , not againste the Bishop of Constantinople , but against the Pride , Concil. Basilien . in Epist. Synodal . and Arrogancie of the Bishop of Rome . The woordes be these : Alioqui , errante Pontifice , sicut saepè contigit , & contingere potest , to●a erraret Ecclesia : The Pope him selfe disclaimeth , &c. Otherwise , when so euer the Pope erreth , as he hath often erred , and maie erre againe , the whole Churche should erre with him . Thus wrote the Bishoppes , and , by your owne Iudgemente , Catholike Bishoppes , in the Councel of Basile : yet had they not forgotten the Praier , that Christe made for S. Peter .

And therefore Franciscus Zarabella , a notable Canoniste , and Cardinal of the Churche of Rome , seeinge the greate enormities , that grewe hereof , saithe thus : Papae faciunt quicquid libet , Francis . Zarabella : C●●atur ab Illyrico , De Sectis . etiam illicita : & sunt plusquam Deus . Ex hoc infiniti sequuti sunt errores . Quia papa occupauit omnia iura inferiorum Ecclesiarum : ita vt inferiores Praelati fint pro nihilo . Et , nisi Deus succurrat statui Ecclesiae , Vniuersalis Ecclesia periclitatur : The Popes doo now , what so euer they liste to doo , yea although it be vnlawfultand are becomme more then God . Hereof haue folowed infinite Erroures . For the Pope hath inuaded , and entred vpon al the right of the Inferioure Churches : so that the inferiour Bishoppes maie goe for nought . And onlesse God healpe the state of the Churche , the Vniuersal Churche is in danger . Thus hitherto , M. Harding , ye haue founde no lie .

Nowe , where ye woulde seeme to saie , Gregorie so reproued the Bishop of Constantinople , that neuerthelesse he claimed the same Title , & Vniuersal Authoritie to him selfe : maie it therefore please you herein to stand to the Iudgement of S. Gregorie him selfe , of whom , I recken , ye doo not doubte , but he vnderstood his owne meaninge . Doubtelesse , if ye had so diligentely considered S. Gregorie , as ye beare vs in hande , ye should haue found , that , touchinge any his owne right herein , he Disclaimeth this Title , & refuseth it vtterly . For so he writeth to the Emperour Mauritius : Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 32. In eadem Epist. Nunquid ego in hac re , pijssime Domine , propriam causam defend ? O my moste Graceouse Lord , doo I herein quarrel for myne owne right ? Againe he saith , Non mea Causa , sed Dei est Non ego solus , sed tota turbatur Ecclesia : Quia piae Leges , quia venerandae Synodi , quia ipsa Domini nostri lesu mandata , Superbi , atque pompatici cuiusdam Sermonis inuentione tuibantur : It is Goddes cause : It is not mine . Not I onely am troubled therewith , but also the whole Churche . For the Godly Lawes , the Reuerende Synodes , and the very Commaundementes of oure Lorde Iesu are broken by the inuention of a certaine prowde , In eadem . and pompouse Name . Againe , Nullus Romanorum Pontificum hoc Singularitatis Nomen assumpsit : Nullus Decessorum meorum hoc tam profano vocabulo vti consensit : Nos hunc honorem nolumus oblatum recipere : Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 36. None of al the Bishoppes of Rome euer tooke vpon him this name of Singularitie : None of my Predecessours euer consented to vse this Vngodly style : wee our selues wil not receiue this honoure , though it were offered .

Thus it appeareth by the Iudgemente of S. Gregorie , that this Vniuersal Authoritie is vtterly vnlawful , not onely in other Bishoppes , but also euen in the Bishop of Rome .

Touchinge the place of S. Hierome , I sée , ye are contente to geue ouer , and to recante youre former erroure . For in your Firste Booke , ye saie , these woordes are Notable aboue others : and therefore might not be dissembled . And where S. Hierome saithe , M. Hard. Fol. 80. The safetie of the Churche hangeth of the Dignitie of the Highe Prieste ( meaninge thereby euery seueral Bishop within his owne Limites ) ye thought it good , thus to lard the same , by a proper parenthesis , with certaine other special stuffe , of your owne prouision : He meaneth the Pope , Peters Successour : as if this Highe Prieste , of whom S. Hierome writeth , could be none other , but the Bishop of Rome . Now vpon somme better aduise , & by waie of Retractation , ye saie thus , This peerelesse Authoritie aboue al other , S. Hierome dooth attribute to the Bishop of euery Diocese : whiche in déede was the very meaninge of S. Hierome . Certainely , if S. Hierome , by these woordes , meante Onely the Bishop of Rome , as ye tolde vs before , then he meant not the Particulare Bishop of euery Diocese , as ye tel vs nowe . Therefore ye muste néedes confesse , that either nowe , or before , ye haue soughte meanes to beguile your Reader . As for the Pope , Peters Successour , he meante nomore of him , then of any other Bishop . If it shal likewise hereafter please you , to cal in other your like ouersightes , ye shal publishe more truthe , and encumber your Reader with lesse Erroure .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 3.

Bernarde the Abbate , aboue foure hundred yeeres paste , writeth thus : Nothinge is nowe sincere , and pure emongest the Cleregie : wherefore it resteth , that the Man of Sinne shoulde be reueled . The same Bernarde in his Treatie of the Conuersion of S. Paule , It seemeth nowe , saithe he , that Persecution hath ceased : no , no , persecution seemeth but nowe to beginne , and that euen from them , which haue chiefe preeminence in the Church . Thy frendes and neighbours , O God , haue drawen neere , and stood vp against thee : from the sole of the foot to the crown of the head , there is no part whole . Iniquitie is proceded from the Elders , the ludges and Deputees , whiche pretende to rule thy people . Wee cannot saie nowe , Looke howe the people is , so is the Prieste . For the people is not so il , as is the Prieste . Alas , alas , O Lorde God , the self same persones be the chiefe in persecu●ing thee , which seeme to loue the Highest place , and beare moste rule in thy Churche . The same Bernarde againe vpon the Canticles writeth thus : Al thei are thy frendes : yet are thei al thy foes : Al thy kinnesfolke : yet are thei al thy aduersaries . Beinge Christes seruauntes , thei serue Antichriste . Beholde in my reste , my bitternesse is moste bitter .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 1.

Roger Bacon also , In Likello de idiomate linguarum . a man of greate fame , after he had in a vehemente Oration touched to the quicke the woeful state of his owne time , These so many errours , saith he , require and looke for Antichriste . Gerson complaineth , that in his daies al the Substance , and efficacie of Sacred Diuinitie was brought vnto a glorious contention , & oftentation of wittes , & very Sophistrie . The poore menne , called pauperes à Lugduno , menne , as touching the manner of theire life , not to be misliked , were woonte boldely to affirme , that the Romishe churche ( from whence alone al Counsel , and Order was then sought ) was the very same Halot of Babylon , and rowte of Diuels , whereof is Prophesied so plainely in the Apocalyps .

M. Hardinge .

Now commeth me he in with a newe band , which consisteth of tagge and ragge , and a weake companie , God knoweth , they be to shewe theire faces againste the Catholike Churche , whiche ( as the Holy Ghoste speaketh by Salomon ) is terrible like an armie of men set in bataile raie .

Firste frier Bacon the Coniurer , and negromanser , as commonly they saie o him , he is set in the forewarde , a man of greate fame forsoothe .

Then commeth in the good plaine father Gerson , a writer in our Graundfathers time : he complaineth , that Friers and studentes gaue them selues too mutche to the vnprofitable subtilitie of Scholastical questions . What maketh this againste the faithe of the Churche ?

After these , this Defender placeth in an out winge the falle brethern of Lyons , commonly called Waldenses , or Pauperes de Lugduno , notorius Heretikes condemned of the Churche . These beinge detestable Heretikes condemned of the Churche , we recke not what they saie , no more then what Luther saieth , what Zuinglius , what Caluine , what these Defenders them selues saie , what Antichriste , what Sathan saieth . For the enimies of Gods truthe maie not be admitted to geue witnes againste the Truthe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Of these laste Authorities , whiche ye calle tagge , and ragge , wée neuer made any greate accoumpte . Notwithstandinge bothe Iohannes Gerson , and Rogerus Bacon were notable , and famouse in theire times , and in al respectes comparable then with the beste . Plaine Father Gerson ( for by sutche woordes ye thought if beste to quaile his credite , beinge otherwise coumpted a suttle disputer , and a profounde Schole Doctoure ) was Chauncellar of the Vniuersitie of Parise : and for his wisedome , and Learninge , was thought woorthy to be the Directoure of al the Bishoppes in the Councel of Constance .

Rogerus Bacon , as it appeareth by his Booke , De Idiomate Linguarum , was hable to iudge of the Latine , Greeke , and Hebrewe tongues : and difides diuerse other Bookes , writeth also sundrie Epistles vnto Pope Clemente : wherein he mutche complaineth of the ruine , and Confusion of the Churche . Certainely the weakest of these bothe , hath more weight , and Substance , then either your Amphilochius , or your Abdias , or your Hippolytus , or your Leontius , or youre Anacletus , or your Pope Clemens , whom ye so often cal the Apostles felowe .

Howe be it , there is no man so simple , but maie beare witnesse to the Truthe . Clemens Alexandrinus , Lactantius , Arnobius , Eusebius , S. Augustine , & other Holy Fathers thought it no preiudice to theire cause , to allege the witnesse of the Frantique Sibylles : S. Paule allegeth the Authorities of the Heathen Poëtes , Aratus , Menander , Epimenides , that neuer knewe God : Christe thought it no scorne , to receiue witnesse at Infantes mouthes : No , he refused not the Diuels , when they bare witnesse with him , and saide , We knowe , that thou arte Christe the Sonne of the Liuinge God . Pauperes à Lugduno founde faulte with the Pride of the Pope : Aeneas Syluius in Historia Boemica . with the lewde life of the Cleregie : with Purgatorie : with Holy Water : with Pardonnes : and with other your like deceiuinges of the people .

They translated the Bible : and praied in theire natural knowen mother tongue . These were theire Erroures : Therefore were they called detestable Heretiques : therefore were they condemned by your Churche of Rome . But Goddes Name be blessed for euer . Sithence that time the Popes painted Power hath stil abated : and these poore detestable condemned Heretiques haue stil encreased .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision , 2.

I knowe wel yenough the Authoritie of these foresaid persones wil be but lightly regarded amongest these men ▪ Howe then if I cal foorth those for witnesses , whom they them selues haue vsed to honoure ? What if I saie , that Adrian the Bishop of Rome did frankly confesse , that al these mischieues braste out firste from the high Throne of the Pope ?

M. Hardinge .

Here haue wee a man of strawe set vp , Rome the roote of il . whom this defender nameth Adrian Bishop of Rome . He geueth him a waze of strawe in his hande , that a farre of semeth to be a sore weapon , taken out of the armorie of Platina , * * A greate solic . For Platyna was deade threescoare yeeres before Adrian . 6 was Pope . as is pretended . But when ye come neare and beholde what felow this is , and conferre with Platina , touchinge his weapon , ye see it to be a fained thinge . For there is no sutche saieinge by Platina attributed to any of the ‡ ‡ Vntruthe vaine , and vnaduised . For Platyna writeth not one worde of Adriane the sixthe . six Adrians Bishoppes of Rome , ‡ whose liues he writeth . And mo there were not . Therefore where you saie , What if I saie , that Adrian , &c. I answere thereto , that if you so saie , you saie a false lie .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Touchinge this pretie fansie of a man of Cloutes , and a waze of strawe , I sée wel , M. Hardinge , ye thoughte it good policie , to clowte vp the matter , and to satisfie your Reader with a strawen answeare . The strawe was in your eies , M. Hardinge , & not in the man . Ye stoode too far aluffe : your eies daseled : and therefore ye knewe not , what ye sawe . If ye had drawen neare , ye should soone haue founde your owne erroure . It was no man of strawe , but Pope Adrian the sixthe , and laste , that wée spake of : Onlesse ye thinke the Popes Holinesse to be a man of strawe . For thus he pronounced at Norinberg in Germanie in the great assemblie of the Empiere , by the mouthe of Cheregatus his Legate a Latere . A Sacerdotibus iniquitatem populi dimanare : multis nunc annis , grauiter , multisque modis peccatum esse Romae : Iohan. Sleidanus Lib. 4. Ann. 1523. & inde à Pontificio Culmine malum hoc , atque luem ad inferiores omnes Ecclesiarum Praefectos defluxisse : Thus Pope Adrian bade his Legate saie , That the iniquitie of the people grewe from the Priestes : And that nowe , for the space of many yeeres , there haue benne greate , and greuous offenses committed in Rome : And that al this plague , and mischiefe hath flowed vnto al the Inferioure Rulers of the Churche , euen from the Highe Throne of the Popes Holinesse . This same storie is also extante , Fasciculus rerum Sciendarum . printed at Colaine in a Booke called Fasciculus rerum Sciendarum .

Thus therefore once againe wée saie , M. Hardinge , that Pope Adrian . 6. frankly confessed , that al these mischiefes procéeded firste euen from the Throne , or Seate of the Popes Holinesse : and , saieinge the same , notwithstandinge your vnciuile speache , wée saie no lie .

And , leste ye shoulde thinke , this Legate Cheregatus either of foregeatefulnesse , or of malice , did his errante otherwise , then he had in Commission , the like woordes haue sithence benne vttered in your owne late chapter at Tridente by Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto . These be his woordes : Effecerunt tandem , vt Pietas in Fucum , Cornel. Bitontinus in Concil. Tridenti . & Hypocrisim , &c. They haue brought to passe , that Godlinesse is turned into Hypocrisie : and that the Sauoure of Life is turned into the Sauoure of Deathe . Woulde God they were not gonne wholy with general consente , from Religion , to Superstition : from Faithe , to Infidelitie : from Christe , to Antichriste : from God , to Epicure : saieing with wicked harte , and filthy mouthe , There is no God . Neither hath there benne this greate while any Pastoure , or Pope , that regarded these thinges . For they al ( bothe Pope , and others ) sought theire owne : and not so mutche as one of them ( neither Pope , nor Cardinal ) sought for the thinges , that perteine to Iesus Christe .

Therefore , M. Hardinge , ye maie hencefoorthe spare your Vnsauery , and bitter speaches : For in these reportes there is no lie .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 3.

Pighius acknowlegeth herein to be a faulte , that many Abuses are brought in , Errours in the Masse . euen into the very Masse , whiche Masse otherwise he woulde haue se●●e to be a moste reuerend matter . Gerson saithe , that through the number of moste fonde Ceremonies , al the Vertue of the Holy Ghoste , whiche ought to haue ful operation in vs , and al true godlinesse is vtterly quenched , and deade . Whole Graecia , and Asia complaine , howe the Bishoppes of Rome with the martes of theire Purgatories and Pardons , haue both tormented mennes Consciences , and piked theire purses .

M. Hardinge .

In deede pighius in his sixth controuersie , speaking of priuate masses , denieth not but certaine abuses be crept into that most Holy and most helthful thing , for so he speaketh . And adding further , we snow ( saith he ) to what man , and to what men it perteineth the same to correcte . And let eche man acknowledge his owne measure , and vnderstande his dutie . As who shoulde saie , it is not meere for euery man to take vpon him to amend any thinge that is amisse about the Masse . For he meaneth not that the Masse it selfe is erroneus , as ful wel there he declareth : but that men be faulty in abusinge that moste Holy Sacrifice . For many come to the Aulter , vnworthely . Many be presente at it , that ought not to come within the Churche dores . Some Priestes be of so lewde liues , and of so vnreuerent behauiour at it , as it were better they abstained Albeit , I thinke , he meante rather sutche abuses , as the learned Fathers of the prouincial Councel of Coulen woulde to be amended : to witte , certaine peculiar offices of Masses deuised by men of late yeeres besides the ordinance of the Ancient forefathers .

As for the other greate troupe ye bringe with you out of Grece and Asia , firste , we require you to make them agree with your selues , and with the Catholike Churche aboute the procession of the Holy Ghoste , and then we shal answere both you , and them concerning your greuous matter of Purgatorie and Pardons . It is not our manner to take the saieinges of Heretikes for good and sufficient Auctoritie .

The B. of Sarisburie .

In déede , M. Hardinge , here ye hewe ouer highe . Ye take vpon you to make vs vnderstande Pigghius meaninge : & yet by your owne Confession it appeareth , yée neuer knewe your selfe , what he meante . Ye saie , He founde faulte with the vnwoorthinesse , either of the Priestes , or of the people , ye knowe not , whether : or with some what els , noted in the late Chapter of Colaine , ye knowe not , what . Yet what so euer it shal please you to imagine , ye thinke , you haue wronge , if wee beléeue you not immediately vpon youre woorde . But Pigghius him selfe , whoes tale ye would so fame telle , saithe not , as you woulde make him saie , Abuses haue creapte into the Prieste , or People , But plainely , and simply he saithe , Erroures haue creapte into the Masse .

Howe be it , These Erroures , ye saie , what so euer they be , no man maie redresse , but onely the Pope . Extra , de Translatione Episcopi , Quanto . In Gloss . Extra , de Concess . Praebendae . Proposuit : In Glossa . And good cause , why . For your Doctoures saie , Papa ex nihilo potest facere aliquid : the Pope of nothinge can make somme thinge : And , what so euer he doo , noman maie saie vnto him , Domine , cur ita facis ? Sir , why doo you so ? And the very harte , and roote of al your Diuinitie of Louaine is this , Christe hath praied for Peter : Ergo , the Pope can neuer erre . But if ye meane plainely , and , if there be no dissimulation , nor Hypocrisie in your woordes , tel me , I befeche you , euen as you desire to be beléeued , Of al the Errours the Phigghius meante , for the space of these fourtie yéeres , what one Erroure hathe the Pope redressed ? Theire is no plainenesse in this dealinge , M. Harding . Your minde is not to séeke redresse , be the faulte neuer so euident : but stil to continewe your selues in credite , and the worlde i● erroure .

Al the Christians of Graecia , Graecia , and Asia . and Asia , ye saie , be Heretiques : and therefore ye recke not , what they saie . No doubte : for they saie , the Pope is not the Heade of the Churche . Dist. 22. Omnes . Whiche thinge who so euer denieth , saith Pope Nicolas , muste néedes be holden as an Heretique . Thomas Aquinâs for that good affection , & reuerence , he bare towardes the Pope , saithe thus , Dicere , Papam non habere Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Primatum , est error similis errori dicentium , Spiritum Sanctum à Filio non procedere : To saie , that the Pope hath not the Primacie of the Vniuersal Churche , it is an Erroure like vnto the Erroure of them , that ( mainteine Heresie touchinge the Holy Trinitie , and ) saie , The Holy Ghoste procedeth not from the Sonne of God . Of your readinesse herein Ludouicus Viues writeth thus , Augustinum Vetustas sua tuetur . Qui si reuiuisceret cum Paulo , certe ille contemptui esset Rhetorculus , Lodouicus Viuet in Li 13. De ●iuitate Dei , Ca. 24 aut Grammaticulus : Paulus verò vel insanirè , vel Haereticus videretur : S. Augustine is safe nowe bicause of his age . But if he , and Paule were aliue againe , he shoulde be shaken of as a bad Rhetorician , or a poore Grammarian . But S. Paule should be taken , either for a madde man , or for an Heretique .

Nowe iudge you , M. Hardinge , what Churche of yours is this , where as S. Paule , the Apostle of Christe , if he were now aliue , should goe for an Heretique . Vesputius , as I remember , after he had trauailed far , & had seene the Manners , & Religions of many Countries , saithe thus , Graeci implicati sunt multis Erroribus : The Greekes are entangled with many Errours : But he addeth withal : Faxit Deus , ne & Latinis multae irrepserint Stultitiae . God grount , there be not many folies entred also into the Churche of Rome .

Surely , the Christian menne , that be this daie in Graecia , and Asia , vtterly abhorre the Pope , Paulus Aemylius , Pantaleon . with al the deformities of his Churche . The Gréeke Emperour Michael Palaeologus , for that he had submitted him selfe to the Pope , in the late Councel of Florence , was therefore afterward abhorred , and hated of his people , while he liued : and beinge deade , was forebidden Christian Burial . Isidorus the Archebishop of Kiouia in Russia , for that , beinge returned from the said Councel , he beganne for vnities sake , Matthias à Michouia , in Nouo Orbe . to moue the people to the like submission , was therfore deposed from his Bishoprike , and put to deathe .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 1.

As touchinge the Tyrannie of the Bishoppes of Rome , and theire Barbarous Persianlike Pride , to leaue out others , whom perchaunce they recken for enimies , bicause they freely , & liberally finde faulte with theire vices , the same menne , whiche haue leadde theire life at Rome in the Holy Cittie , in the face of the moste Holy Father , who also were hable to see al theire secretes , and at no time departed from the Catholique Faithe , as for example . Laurentius Valla , Marsilius Patauinus , Frauncis Petrarke , Hierome Sauanorola , Abbat Ioakim , Baptiste of Mantua , and before al these , Bernarde the Abbate , haue many a time and mutche complained of it , geuinge the world also sommetime to vnderstande , that the Bishop of Rome him selfe ( by your leaue ) is very Antichriste . Whether they spake it truely , or falsely , let that goe : sure I am , they spake it plainely . Neither canne any man allege , that those Authours were Luthers , or Zuinglius Scholars : for they liued not onely certaine yeeres , but also certaine ages ere euer Luther , or Zuinglius names were hearde of .

M. Hardinge .

If this Defender were compared to a mad dogge , some perhappes woulde thinke it rude , and an vnmanerly comparison . Let the man be as he is , who so euer he be : verely the manner and fashion of bothe is like , howe so euer I be contente , his person be honoured with the due regard of a man . For as the mad dogge runneth vp and downe , here and there , and nowe byteth one thinge , and then an other , snappeth at man and beaste , and resteth not in one place : So this Defender , to deface the Churche , sheweth him selfe to haue a very vnquiet heade . Nowe he ronneth at the Bishop of Rome , then at the whole cleregie . Nowe he barketh at errours in Doctrine , and sheweth none , then he snappereth at manners , and backebiteth mennes liues . Nowe he bringeth foorth Scriptures , and them he stretcheth and racketh , but they reache not home . Then commeth be to the Doctoures , and maketh them of his side whether they wil , or no. From Doctoures he runneth to Coniurers , to riminge Poetes , and to Heretikes themselues . I thinke they had rather ronne to the Turkes , then the Catholike Faithe shoulde be receiued . And here leauinge that he tooke in hande to proue , that the Churche erreth in necessary Doctrine , he flingeth at the tyrannie and pride of the Bishoppes of Rome , and bringeth in for witnes againste them , white and blacke , good and bad . So he hurte them , he careth not howe , by what meanes , ne by what persons .

Firste to geate credite , he vttereth a manifeste lie , saieinge of them al , they leadde theire life at Rome in the Holy Cittie vnder the nose of the moste holy Father , and might see al his secretes , and neuer foresooke the Catholike Faithe . His witnesses be these : Laurence Valla , Marsilius of Padua , Francis Petrarch , Hierome Sauonarol● , Ioachim Abbot , Baptiste of Mantua , and S. Bernarde , whom of spite he calleth Bernarde the Abbot . Nowe let vs see howe many lies here be made at once . Whereas of al these ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Mantuane dwelt in Rome : Petrarcha was made Poēte in Rome : Sauanorola was often in Rome , &c. neuer a one leadde his life at Rome , but Laurence Valla , who was a Canon of Laterane , and this Defender saieth that al did : there is one lie . That al these might see the Popes secretes , there be two lies . That none of these foresooke the Catholike faithe , * * Vntruthe . Otherwise shewe , wherein they foresooke the Faithe . there be three lies . As for Laurence Valla , he was not in euery pointe very sounde , as it appeareth in his Booke of Free wil , and in his annotations vpon the newe Testamente . In althinges he handled , he shewed him selfe newe fangled , rather then groundedly lerned , as wel in grammer and logike , as in diuinitie .

But Mars . lius of Padua , to please the Emperouve Ludouicus Bauarus , who liued aboue twoo hundred yeeres paste , through malice conceiued againste Pope Iohn the xxij of whom the saide Ludouicus was for iuste causes excommunicate , went so farre in schisme . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . Otherwise shewe , in what Article he was an Heretique . as at length he fel into Heresie .

And Abbot Ioachim , whiles he reproued Peter Lombarde , * * This is Vncerra●ne . Reade Luther touchinge the same . vttered Heresie contrarie to the Catholike faithe , touchinge the Trinitie : and therefore his booke was condemned by the Churche , though his person was not condemned , because he submitted him selfe , and his writinges to the iudgemente of the Holy Romaine Churche , as we finde in the Decretals . That al these haue greately and often complained of the Bishoppes of Rome theire tyrannie and pride , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For this wil soone appeare . there be foure lies . Extra , de summa●nit . & fide Cathol , Cap. 2. That they declared the Pope him selfe to be very Antichriste , * * Vntruthe . For by moste expresse woordes they calle him Antichriste . there be fiue lies . And whereas , to make this shameles lie , you aske leaue , so we aske leaue of you to tel it you , and to challenge you of a lie , and saieplainely vnto you , that speaking of them al , you belie them , and that you shal neuer be able to proue that you saie of them .

Francis Petrarch the Italian Poēte , and Baptiste of Mantua the Latine Poëte , speake like Poëtes , eche of them once in theire woorkes againste the euil manners of the Courte of Rome . But what proufe maketh al this , that the Romaine Churche , that is to saie , the Weast Churche , whiche onely remaineth , and euer hath remained whole and sound of Faithe , erreth in Doctrine ? Or what argumente can you gather out of al these , I wil not saie againste the life , but againste the office , Auctoritie , and dignitie of the Bishop of Rome ? The argumente , you can make hereupon is this : Poëtes reprehende the vices of the Courte of Rome : Ergo , the Pope is Antichriste . Or , ergo the Catholike Churche erreth , and is to be foresaken . What force is in this reason , euery reasonable man , be he neuer so meane of witte , may soone iudge :

The B. of Sarisburie .

Your Comparison of Madde Dogges , M. Hardinge , becommeth wel the rest of your Courteous eloquence . Antichriste . Who so shal marke , howe vainely you snappe at , what so euer ye can imagine , is in your waie : nowe at our Logique : nowe at our Rhetorique : nowe at our Greeke : nowe at our Latine : nowe at our Lamenesse : nowe at our leane Cheekes : nowe at oure thinne Beardes : nowe at our Superintendenteshippes : nowe at our Ministershippes : nowe at oure Maistershippes : nowe at our Mashippes , ( for this is the sobrietie , and grauitie of your speache ) : and further howe greedily , and egrely ye fasten your teeth , and feede your selfe with Winde , and are stil snappinge , and catche nothinge : although in regarde of manhood he spare to cal you a Madde Dogge , as it liketh you to calle others , yet he maie wel thinke you scarcely to be a sober man .

Christe founde faulte , sommetime with the Bishoppes : Sommetime with the Priestes : Sommetime with the Scribes : Sommetimes with the Phariseis : Sommetime with the People : Sommetime with theire Religion : Sommetime with theire Traditions : Sommetime with theire Ignorance : Sommetime with theire Praiers : Sommetime with theire Fastinges : sommetime with theire Life : Sommetime with theire Hypocrisie : Sommetime with theire Crueltie : And thus in your fantasie , he ranne hither , and thither , vp , and downe . Yet , I trowe , ye wil not touche him with your Comparisons , nor saie therfore , as ye saie to vs , he had a very vnquiet Heade .

Who so hath eies to see , and considereth the miserable Abuses of the Churche of Rome , touchinge either Life , or Religion , cannot lightly wante iuste mater to reproue . Ye remember , what Churche it is , whereof S. Bernarde saithe , Bernardus in Conuersione Pauli , Sermo. 1. A planta pedis , vsque ad verticem Capitis non est Sanitas vlla : Non est iam dicere , vt Populus , sic Sacerdos . Quia nec sic Populus , vt Sacerdos : There is not one whole place from the sole of the foote , to the toppe of the Heade . Wee maie not nowe saie , As is the People , so is the Prieste : For the People is nothinge so il , as is the Prieste .

Ye saie , these witnesses dwelt not in Rome : and here in a smal matter , ye haue noted a great lie . Howe be it , Bernarde the Abbate , that dwelte furtheste of , was twise in Rome : Gulielm . Abb. in Vita Bernard . Raphael Volaterran . and was Chiefe of Councel with Pope Innocentius in his greateste affaires Franciscus Petrarcha was made Poete in the Capitol , and keapte Laura his Concubine in the eie of the Pope , and had his moste aboade in Rome . Laurentius Valla was Cauon of the Cathedral Churche in Laterane , and leadde his Life , and died in Rome . Briefely , S. Bernarde onely excepted , al the reste were Italians , and dwelte neuer far from Rome : & as it maie appeare by the plainenesse of theire speache , vnderstoode somme parte of the déepeste Secretes of the Churche of Rome .

Marsilius Patauinus , ye saie , was an Heretique : But what one Heresie he defended , or before what Iudge he was conuicted , or where he was either abtured , Marsilius Patauinus . or pounisshed for the same , neither you , nor any of al your Felowes haue hitherto tolde vs . Therefore wée muste thinke , He was an Heretique without Heresie : Ioachimus Abb. Extra . De Summa Trinitate , & Fide Catholica , Dānamus . Apocal. 17. as somme menne be Doctoures without Diuinitie .

Ioachimus Abbas founde faulte with the Bishop of Rome : And therefore he muste néedes be an Heretique . As for that he is charged in the Popes Decretalles with erroure , touchinge the Trinitie , it is a greate Vntruthe : as ye maie clearely perceiue by a Booke , that Martin Luther hath pourposely written in his Defence .

But , Vergil . Septemque vna sibi muro circundabit Arces . Iren. li. 5. Cavlt . to comme neare the matter , and to speake of the thinge , that moste misliketh you , S. Iohn saith , Antichriste shal fitte in a Cittie builte vpon seuen Hilles : ( and so is the Cittie of Rome ) . Irenaeus saith , The number of Antichristes Name shal be expressed by this woorde , Latinus . Sibylla saith , The greateste terroure , and furie of his Empiere , Sibylla , Oratione 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hieronymus ad Algasiam . Gregor. Lib. 6. Epist. 30. and the greateste woe , that he shal woorke , shal be by the bankes of Tyber . Whiche circumstances séeme plainely to painte out the Cittie of Rome .

S. Hierome saithe , Antichristus fedebit in Templo Dei : vel Hierosolymi , vt quidam putant : vel in Ecclesia , vt veriùs arbitramur : Antichriste shal fit in the Temple of God : either at Hierusalem , as somme thinke : or els in the Churche ( of God ) it selfe : whiche wee take to be the truer meaninge . S. Gregorie saithe , Ego fidenter dico , quo'd quisquis se Vniuersalem Sacerdotem vocat , vel vocari defiderat , in elatione sua Antichristum praecurrit : I speake it boldely : Who so euer calleth him selfe the Vniuersal Prieste , or desireth so to be called , ( as doth the Pope ) in the Pride of his harte he is the forerenner of Antichriste .

And when Iohn , then Bishop of Constantinople , had firste entred his claime vnto this title , Gregor. Lib. 4. Epist. 34. S. Gregorie made answeare vnto the same , Ex hac eius Superbia , quid aliud , nisi propinqua iam esse Antichristi tempora designantur ? By this Pride of his , what thinge els is signified , but that the time of Antichriste is euen at hande ?

Againe he saithe vpon occasion of the same , Rex soperbiae propè est : & , quod dici nefas est , Sacerdotum est praeparatus exercitus : The Kinge of Pride ( that is Antichriste ) is comminge to vs : and an Armie of Priestes is prepared : whiche thinge is wicked to be spoken . Hieronym . ad Algasiam . S. Hierome saithe , Antichristus omnem Religionem suae subijciet Potestati : Antichriste shal cause al Religion to be subiecte to his Power .

I wil not here take vpon me to discrie , either the Person , or the dwelling Place of Antichriste . Who so hath eies to sée , let him sée . These Circumstances agree not vnto many . S. 2. Thessal. 2. Paule saith , Antichriste woorketh the Mysterie , or secrete practise of Iuiquitie . Whereupon the Glose saith , Mystica est Impietas Antichristi , id est , Pieratis nomine palliata : The wickednesse of Antichriste is Mystical : that is to saie , ( It is not plaine , & open , or easy to be espied of euery body , but ) cloked vnder the name of Godlinesse .

And , for as mutche as M. Hardinge thinketh , wee misallege these Writers , and violently force them to our side , whether thei wil , or no , S. Bernarde saithe thus , Bernardus Epist. 125. Pag. 1316. Bestia illa de Apocalypsi , cui datum lest os loquens Blasphemias , & bellum gerere cum Sanctis , Petri Cathedram occupat , tanquam Leo paratus ad praedam : That Beaste , that is spoken of in the Booke of Reuelations , vnto whiche Beaste is geuen a mouthe to speake Blashemies , and to keepe warre againste the Sainctes of God , is nowe gotten into Peters Chaire , as a Lion prepared to his praie , Ioachimus Abbas saide aboue three hundred yéeres sithence , Ioachimus Abbas . Antichristus iam pridem natus est Romae : & altiùs se extollet in Sede Apostolica : Antichriste is already borne in Rome : and shal auaunce him selfe higher in the Apostolique See .

Arnulphus , In Concilio Remensi , Inter Opera Bernardi . in the Councel of Remes , saith thus , Quid hunc , Reuerendi Patres , in sublimi Solio residentem , veste purpurea , & aurea radiantem , quid hunc , inquam , esse censeris ? Nimirùm , si charitate destituitur , solaque scientia inflatur , & extollitur , Antichristus est in Templo Dersedens , & sese oftendens , tanquam sit Deus : What thinke you , Reuerend Fathers , of this man ( be meaneth the Pope ) sittinge on highe in his Throne , glitteringe in purple , and clothe of Golde ? What thinke you him to be ? Verily , if he be voide of Charitie , and be blowen vp , and auaunced onely with knowledge , then is he Antichrist , sitting in the Temple of God , and shewing out him selfe , as if he were God .

The Bishoppes in the Councel at Reinspurg saie thus , Auentinus . Hildebrandus Papa , sub specie Religionis , iecit Fundamenta Antichristi : Pope Hildebrande , vnder a coloure of holinesse ( by forebiddinge Priestes mariage ) hath saide the Fundation for Antichriste . Dantes in Cantione . 32. Dantes an Italian Poëte by expresse woordes calleth Rome the Whoore of Babylon . Fanciscus Petrarcha likewise saithe , Rome the Whoore of Babylon : The Mother of al Idolatrie , Francis . Petrarcha , Epist. 20. and Fornication : the Sanctuarie of Heresie : and the Schole of Errour . I knowe , these woordes wil séeme odious vnto many . Therefore I wil staie , & spare the reste . The Pope him selfe , for that he sawe , to whoes Person , and credite these thinges belonged , therefore in his Late Councel of Laterane gaue straite Commaundemente to al Preachers , Concil. Lateran . sub Iulio & Leone . Session . 11. that noman shoulde dare once to speake of the Comminge of Antichriste .

The Apologie , Cap. 17. Diuision . 1.

And what marueile if the Churche were then carried awaie with errours in that time , specially when neither the Bishop of Rome , who then onely ruled the roste , nor almoste any other , either didde his duetie , or once vnderstoode , what was his duetie ? For it is harde to be beleeued , whiles they were idle and faste asleepe , that the Diuel also al that while either fel asleepe , or els continually laie idle . For howe they were occupied in the meane time , and with what faithfulnesse they tooke care of Goddes House , though we holde our peace , yet , I praie you , let them heare Bernarde theire owne frende . The Bishoppes ( saith he ) who nowe haue the charge of Goddes churche , are not Teachers , but Deceiuers : They are not Feeders , but Beguilers : They are not Prelates , but Pilates . These wordes spake Bernarde of that Bishop , who named him selfe the higheste Bishop of al , and of the other Bishoppes likewise , whiche then hadde the place of gouernemente . Bernarde was no Lutherane : Bernarde was no Heretike : he had not forsaken the Catholike Churche : yet neuerthelesse he did not lette to cal the Bishoppes , that then were , Deceiuers , Beguilers , & Pilates . Nowe , when the people was openly deceiued : and Christian mennes eies were craftily bleared : and Pilate sate in Iudgement place , and condemned Christe , and Christes Members to Swerde , and Fiere , O good Lorde , in what case was Christes Churche then ? But yet tel me , of so many , and so grosse errours , what one erroure haue these menne at any time refourmed ? Or what faulte haue they once acknowledged , and confessed ?

M. Hardinge .

Why Sirs , are ye so wel learned , and so holy of life your selues , that ye take vpon you to iudge the Bishop of Rome , Christes chiefe officer in earthe , and al other men , before the time of your Apostates , and Renegate Frters , to haue ben both impious for not doing theire dutie , and ignorant for not knowinge what was theire dutie ? Was al Vertue so farre bannished , al necessarie knowledge and Christian learninge so cleane put out , that wee muste nowe beginne to learne how to beleue , and howe to liue a Christian life of sutche light preachers , The Sprite of Modestie . Wicked vowbreakers , lewde Lecherous Lurdens , and detestable blasphemers , as your deuilishe rable is ?

S. Bernardes wordes to Eugenius be these : Age indagemus adhuc diligentiùs , quis sis , &c. Wel goe too . Lib. 2. De consideratione . Let vs somewhat more diligently examine , what manner a man thou art , what person thou bearest for the presente time in the Churche of God . Who art thou ? The greate Preieste , the highest Bishop . Thou arte the chiefe of al Bishoppes , thou arte the heire of the Apostles : for primacie thou arte Abel , for Gouernement Noë , for Patriarkship Abraham . for holy order Melchiscdech , for dignitie Aaron , for Auctoritie Moyses . for iudgemente Samuel , for power Peter , * * The Pope is Christe . for thy anointinge Christe . Thou art he●to whom the Keies were deliuered , to whom the Shepe were committed . There be also other porters of Heauen , and Pastours of flockes . But thou so mutche farre passinge al other , as thou haste inherited bothe names mutche more indifferent . They haue theire flockes assigned vnto them . ech man one . Al are committed to thee , the one whole flocke to one . Neither arte thou onely the Pastour of al the Sheepe , but also the onely Pastour of al the Pastours .

Wherefore accordinge to thine owne Canons , The state of the Churche of Rome . other are called into parte of care , thou into falnes of power . The Auctoritie of others is restrained to certaine prescripte boundes : thine is extended euen vpon those , who haue receiued power ouer others . Canst not thou , if there be cause why , close vp heauen gates againste a Bishop , depriue him of his Bishoprike , and geue him vp to the Deuil ?

Nowe heare an other reason whiche confirmeth that prerogatiue to thee , as wel as the other . The Disciples rowed , Iohan , 12. and our Lorde appeared vnto them on the shore , and that in his Body nowe againe restored vnto life , whiche was more confortable vnto them . Peter knowing that it was our Lorde , leapte into the sea , S. Peter leapeth for the Popedome . and so came vnto him , and the reste came by bote . What meaneth this ? Forsooth it was a signe of the singulare Popedome of Peter , by whiche he tooke into his Gouernemente , not one onely one Shippe , as the other did , eche man his owne , but the whole worlde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Apostates , Renegates , Lecherous Lurdaines , Detestable , Diuelishe rable ? O M. Hardinge , the Vessel , that helde this liquoure , was not cleane . Wee condemne not your Cleregie , either for life , or for Learning : but onely reporte therein the iudgemente of others , youre special frendes . And therefore , if any thinge mislike you herein , the faulte is in them , & not in vs . S. Bernarde saith , Your Bishoppes in his time were not Doctoures , but Deceiuers : Not Feeders , but Defrauders : Not Prelates , but Pilates . Iudge you nowe , in what case the Churche of God stoode then , when the Bishoppes , that were the Guides , and Leaders of the people , might be compared to Pilate , that gaue Sentence in iudgement against Christe .

Iohannes Vitalis a Cardinal of Rome , and therefore in no wise of your parte to be refused , Iohan. Vitalis de praelatis & Sacerdot . Hiere. 5. saithe thus , De Sacerdotibus modernis dicit Hieremias : Stupor , & mirabilia facta sunt in terra . Prophetae praedicabant mendacium : & Sacerdotes applaudebant manibus : Et populus meus dilexit talia : Concerninge the Priestes , that nowe be , Hieremie saith , Honoure , and woonders are wrought vpon the Earth . The Prophetes haue preached Lies : the Priestes haue clapte theire handes at it for ioie , and liked it wel : and my people hath loued sutche thinges .

Albertus Magnus saith , Albertus in Iohannem , Ca. 10. EE . Illi , qui modo ' praesunt in Ecclesijs , plurimùm sunt Fures , & Latrones : plùs Exactores , quàm Pastores : plùs Spoliatores , quàm Tutores : plùs Mactatores , quàm Custodes : plùs Peruersores , quàm Doctores : plùs Seductores , quàm Ductores . Isti sunt Nuntij Antichristi , Subuersores Ouium Christi : They that nowe gouerne the Churche , for the most parte , be Theeues , and Murtherers : more Catches , then Feeders : more Spoilers , then Defenders : more Killers , then Keepers : more Deceiuers , then Doctoures : more Beguilers , then Cuiders , These be the vauntcurrers of Antichriste , the Subuerters of the Sheepe of Christe .

William Holcote saithe , Guliel . Holcote in Li. Sapientiae Lectio . 182. Sacerdotes moderni sunt similes Sacerdotibus Baal : sunt Angeli Apostatici : sunt similes Sacerdotibus Dagon : sunt Sacerdotes Priapi : sunt Angeli Abyssi : The Priestes of this time are like the Priestes of Baal : Thei are the Renegate Angels : They are like the Priestes of Dagon : They are the Priestes of Priapus : They are the Angels of Helle. Bernard . in Concilio Remensi . S. Bernarde saithe , Dicimini Pastores , cùm sitis Raptores . Fratres , Iesus hodiè elegit sibi multos Diabolos Episcopos . Non sunt Pastores , sed Traditores : Ye are called Bishoppes , but ye are Rauenners . O my Brethren , Iesus at this time hath chosen vnto him many Diuels to be Bishoppes : thei are not Feeders : thei are Traitours . Iohan. Sarisburien . in Polycratico . Li. 6. Ca. 24. Iohannes Sarisburiensis saide boldely vnto Pope Adrian the fourth , Ideò mea opinione Papae frequentiùs moriuntur , ne totam corrumpant Ecclesiam : Therefore in my iudgemente the Popes die the oftener , leste ( if they should continew longe ) they shoulde infecte the whole Churche .

Againe S. Bernard in Cantica , Sermo. 66. Bernarde saithe , Pudeat Successores Apostolorum Lucem non esse Mundi , sed Modij : Mundi autem tenebras . Dicamus eis , Vos estis tenebrae Mundi : Let it shame the Successours of the Apostles not to be the Lighte of the Worlde , but the Light of the Busshel : and rather the Darkenesse of the Worlde . Let vs therefore saie vnto them , yee are the Darkenesse of the Worlde .

Through these spectacles wée maie beholde the state of the Churche of Rome . For Christe saithe , Matthae . 6. If the Lighte it selfe , that is in thee , be made Darkenesse , how greate then wil the Darkenesse it selfe be ? How can the Cittie be keapte in safetie , if the Watcheman be blinde , and sée nothinge ? If the Blinde leade the Blinde , bothe falle into the pitte . Matthae . 15. Matthae . 13. Hilari . in Matthae . Canon . 8. Christe saithe , Dormientibus illis , creuerunt Zizania : While the Husbandemenne were asleepe , then the Cokle , and Darnel grewe . S. Hilarie saithe , Ecclesiae , intra quas Verbum non vigilat , naufragae sunt : The Churches , wherein Goddes Woorde watcheth not , suffer shipwracke , and are drowned .

But Bernarde , ye saie , stoutely maineteineth the Popes Supremacie . I graunte you . Neither did wée euer allege him , to proue the contrarie . He defendeth also other greate , and grosse errours , as liuinge in a time of déepest Darkenesse . But the Reason , Bernar. De Consideratione ad Eugeni . Lib. 2. Iohan. 21. he vseth , seeme very weake , specially to winne so great a mater . For thus he saithe , Peter leapte into the water , and came to Christe : The reste of the Disciples came by bote :

Ergo , The Pope hath the Iurisdiction of al the worlde .

Sutche other prety Reasons , made in the Popes behalfe , ye maie finde many . Peter Crab , Concil. to . 1. Pagin . 10. Matthae . 17. Iohan. 21. Luc. 5. Mark . 14. Luc. 22. Iohan. 1. Matthae . 26. that lately compiled the Bookes of Councelles , reasoneth thus : Peter paide the tribute monie for Christe , and him selfe : Christe saide vnto Peter , Folowe thou me : Againe he saide , Lanche foorthe into the deepe : Againe , Peter arte thou asleepe ? Couldest thou not watche with me one houre ? And againe , From hencefoorthe thy name shal be Peter : And , Peter drewe his Swerde , and cutte of Malchus Eare : Ergo , saithe he , The Pope hath Vniuersal Authoritie ouer the whole Churche of God .

Notwithstandinge , how so euer these Reasons holde , Bernarde saithe , The Popes are the Heades of the Churche . True it is . But againe the same Bernard saith , The same Heades are the Ministers of Antichriste , Deceiuers , Defrauders , Rauenners , Traitours , the Darkenesse of the Worlde , Woulfes , Pilates , and Diuels . And this was sufficient for our pourpose . Gregor. Homil. 17. in illa verba , Messis quidem multa . S. Gregorie saithe , Considerate , quid de Gregibus agatur , quando Lupi sunt Pastores : When the Woulfe is becomme the Sheephearde , consider then , what maie becomme of the Flocke .

As for that S. Bernarde saithe , The Pope is Abel : The Pope is Noë : The Pope is Abraham : The Pope is Melchisedek : The Pope is Aaron : The Pope is Moses : The Pope is Christe . The Pope is Samuel : The Pope is Peter : The Pope is Christe , I doubte not , but your owne Conscience wil answeare , it is too mutche . Yet is that a greate deale more likely , that others haue saide , as I haue alleged before , The Pope is Antichriste . For bothe Heauen , & Earthe knoweth , he is not Christe .

The Apologie , Cap. 18. Diuision . 1.

But , forsomutche as these menne auouche the Vniuersal possession of the Catholique Churche to be their owne , and cal vs Heretiques , bicause we agree not in iudgemente with them , let vs know , I beseeche you , what proper marke , and badge hathe that Churche of theirs , whereby it maie be knowen , to bee the Churche of God . Yewis it is not so harde a matter to finde out Goddes Churche , if a manne wil seeke it earnestly , and diligently . For the Churche of God is sette vpon a highe , & glisteringe place , in the toppe of an Hille , and builte vpon the Fundation of the Apostles , and Prophetes : There , Augustin . De Vnitate Eccle. Catholicae . saithe Augustine , lette vs seeke the Churche : there lette vs trie oure maters . And , as he saithe againe in an other place , The Churche muste be shewed out of the Holy , and Canonical Scriptures : and that , whiche can not be shewed out of them , is not the Churche . Yet for al this , I wote not how , whether it be for feare , or for conscience , or despaire of victorie , these menne alwaie abhorre , and flee the Woorde of God , euen as the Theefe fleeth the Gallowes . And no woonder truely . For , like as menne saie , the Cantharus by and by perisheth , & dieth , as soone as it is laide in baulme , notwithstandinge Baulme be otherwise a moste sweete smellinge ointemente : euen so these men wel see , their owne matte is damped , and destroied in the Woorde of God , as if it were in poison . Therefore the Holy Scriptures , whiche oure Saueour Iesus Christe did not onely vse for Authoritie in al his speache , but did also at laste seale vp the same with his owne Bloude , these menne to the entent they mighte with lesse businesse driue the people from the same , as from a thinge daungerous , and deadly , haue vsed to cal theim a Bare Letter , Albertus Pighius in Controuer. De Ecclesia . Vncertaine , Vnprofitable , Doumbe , Killinge , & Deade : whiche seemeth to vs al one , as if they shoulde saie , The Scriptures are to no pourpose , or , as good as none at al. Hereunto they adde also a Similitude not very agreeable , how the Scriptures be like to a Nose of Waxe , or a Shipmans Hose : how thei may be fashioned , and plied al manner of waies , and serue al mennes turnes .

M. Hardinge .

Where ye saie , the Churche is builded vpon the Fundation of the Apostles and Prophetes , and shewed by the Holy Canonicall Scriptures : we confesse the same with S. Augustine . When ye adde , the Churche , whiche can not be shewed out of the Scriptures , to be no Churche , we saie , that though * * Vntruthe . For S. Augustine in the same places , and elswhere , oftentimes saith the same . S. Augustine haue no suche woordes in the Chapters , whiche ye alleage in the Margent , yet were it neuer so muche graunted , that he had those woordes in that place , they shoulde make nothinge for your pourpose . S. Augustine in that Booke disputeth againste the Donatistes , who would restraine the Catholike Churche to the onely Countrie of Aphrike , denieinge other Christen menne to be members thereof . S. Augustine refutinge their Heresie , declareth the Sonne of God to be Heade , and all the true Faithfull to be the Body of the Churche : and that it is not sufficient to holde with the Head alone , or with the Body alone : but we muste holde with bothe together , if we will be saued .

The Donatistes did graunte the Heade Iesus Christe , and denied his Body the Churche . For this cause saithe S. Augusiine , Ipsum Caput de quo consentimus , ostendat nobis Corpus suum , de quo dissentimus : Let the Heade , vpon whom we agree , shewe vnto vs his Body , whereupon we disagree . The Head is Christe , who spake firste by his Prophetes , afterwarde by him selfe , and laste of all by his Apostles . In his igitur omnibus quaerenda est Ecclesia . In all these ( saithe he ) the Churche muste be sought . Where the Churche is to be sought ,

If thou marke , good Reader , that , whiche I haue here rehersed out of S Augustine , it is to be seene , that he bindeth not the proufe of the Churche simply to the Holy Scriptures , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For S Augustines woordes are general . but onely in a case , when he hath to doo with an Heretike , who wil not admitte the auctoritie of the Churche . Therefore * * Here M. Hardinge secretely confesseth , that his Churche of Rome cannot be shewed by the Scriptures . a true Churche maie be founde , whiche is not shewed in the Scriptures , so the contrarie thereof be not shewed in the Scriptures . Churche knowen by Goddes woorde . Now if these Defenders will haue that to be no Churche , which can not be shewed out of Scriptures , they shall vnderstande , that as therein they plaie the Donatistes , so we must needes folow's . Augustine in bringinge Scripture against them , not as the ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For S. Chrysostome saithe , Nunc nullo modo cognoscitur , quae sit vera Ecclesia , nisi Tantummodò per Scripturas . onely proufe in deede ( whiche they falsely saie ) but as a very good and chiefe kinde of proufe , moste profitable in all cases , and necessary at suche time , as the aduersarie will admitte none other proufe , &c.

Wherefore it remaineth , that it is the Synagog of Antichriste , and Lucifer . Who as he fell out of Heauen like a lightninge , so he maketh a blase and shewe of a Churche in the Earthe for a time . But as we can tell when it was not borne , so shall it not be longe , but that through Gods power it will vanishe awaie dispersed , and be scattered by the lightsome Maiestie of Christes true Churche , whiche from S. Peters time to this daie florisheth in her Head the Bishop of Rome , and in her members throughout the worlde . ‡ ‡ In the Vnitie of the B. of Rome . whiche abide in the Vnitie of the same Bishop .

Wee esteeme and vnderstande the Scriptures to be the sense and the woorde . If they can pretende the bare woorde , they thinke themselues good inough to make a sense of their owne . Whiche bare woorde , as they misuse it , Pighius perhaps compareth to a nose of waxe . But the Scriptures he neuer meante to dishonour with that similitude . If it were lawfull for vs to vse Scripture after our owne interpretation , as they doo , we shoulde not lacke sufficient matter in the Holy Bookes to ouerthrowe by our owne applieinge all theire false opinions and Heresies . * * Vntruthe manifest , & shamelesse . For M. Hard , knoweth , that in the greattest cases , that lie in question , he can allege neither Scripture , nor Doctoure . But we are bounde to that religious awe , and reuerence of them , that excepte we haue an Authour to auouche the sense , whereof we take holde , we dare bringe foorthe nothinge . And yet reade our Bookes who will , he shall lacke neither Scriptures in them , nor witnesses of our interpretation in any controuersie of this age . Let it be agreed , that for decision of controuersies , suche sense of the Scriptures be taken for Scripture , whiche the Holy Ghost hath taught the Churche , and then let the worlde iudge , who flieth the woorde of God , as the Theefe dothe the Gallowes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Contrarie to that , wée haue here alleged of S. Augustine , ye saie , A true Churche maie be founde , whiche is not shewed in the Scriptures : Whereby it appeareth , ye are lothe , your Churche shoulde comme to the trial of this Standerde . But , for as mutche as this quarrel groweth of S. Augustine , let S. Augustine him selfe be the Iudge . And , to allege a fewe woordes in stéede of many , thus he saithe , Vtrùm ipsi Ecclesiam teneant , Augustin . De Vnitate Eccle. Ca. 16. Diuinarum Scripturarum Canonicis Libris ostendant . Ecclesiam Christi , sicut ipsum Caput Christum , in Scripturis Sanctis Canonicis debemus agnoscere : Whether they haue the Churche , or no , let them shewe by the Canonical Bookes of the Holy Scriptures . Wee muste knowe the Churche of Christe , euen as wee likewise knowe Christe , whiche is the Heade of the Churche , in the Holy Canonical Scriptures . Againe he saithe , August . Contra Cresconium Cram. Lib. 1. Ca. 33. Ecclesiam sine vlla ambiguitate Sancta Scriptura demonstrat : The Holy Scripture sheweth the Churche without any doubtefulnesse .

Againe , Quaestio est , vhi sit Ecclesia . Quid ergo facturi sumus ? Vtrùm in verbis nostris eam quaesituri , an in Verbis Capitis sui , Domini nostri Iesu Christi ? Futo , quòd in illius potiùs Verbis eam quaerere debemus , August De Vnita Ecclesi . Ca. 2. qui Veritas est , & optimè nouit Corpus suum : The question , or doubte is , where the Churche should be . What then shal we doo ? Whether shal wee seeke the Churche in our owne woordes , or in the Woordes of her Heade , whiche is oure Lorde Iesus Christe ? In my Iudgemente wee ought rather to seeke the Churche in his Woordes : for that he is the Truthe , and beste knoweth his owne Body .

Againe , August . Eodem Li. Ca. 3. Non audiamus , Haec dico , Haec dicis : Sed audiamus , Haec dicit Dominus . lbi quaeramus Ecclesiam : Ibi discutiamus causam nostram : Let vs not heare these woordes , This saie I , This saiste thou : But these woordes set vs heare , Thus saithe the Lorde : there let vs seeke the Churche : there let vs discusse oure cause . And againe , In eodem capite . Nolo Humanis Documentis , sed Diuinis Oraculis Sanctam Ecclesiam demonstrari : I wil not haue the Holy Churche to be shewed by Mannes Iudgemente , but by Goddes Woorde .

Likewise saithe S. Vnitie of the Churche in one Pope . Chrysostome , Nunc nullo modo cognoscitur , quae sit vera Ecclesia Christi , nisi Tantummodò per Scripturas : Now can noman knowe , whiche is the true Churche of Christe , but Onely by the Scriptures . Againe he saithe , in like fourme of woordes , Volens ergo quis cognoscere , quae sit Vera Ecclesia Christi , vnde cognoscat in tanta confusione similitudinis , Chrysost. in opere Imperfe . Homil 49. In Eadem Hom. nifi Tantummodo ' per Scripturas ? If a man be desirous to knowe , whiche is the true Churche of Christe , how can he know it in sutche a confusion of likenesse , but Onely by the Scriptures ? These woordes be so euident and so plaine , that noman with modestie maie wel denie them .

And , whereas you saie , Al this notwithstandinge , A true Churche maie be founde , whiche is not shewed in the Scriptures . S. Ambrose saithe , Ambrosi , Hexameron . li. 4. ca. 8. Ecclesia fulget , non suo , sed Christi Lumine : The Churche shineth ( or is knowen ) not by her owne Lighte , but by the Light of Christe , whiche is , by the Woorde of God .

And chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. in Iohan Homil. 58. Qui Sacra non vtitur Scriptura , sed ascendit aliunde , id est , non concessa via , hic Fur est , & Latro : Who so vseth not the Scripture , but geateth vp an other waie , that is , by a waie , that is not lawful , he is a Theefe , and a Murtheier .

Againe he saithe , Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 46. Hierusalem hîc semper Ecclesiam intellige , quae dicitur Ciuitas Pacis : cuius Fundamenta posita sunt super Montes Scripturarum : Here by Hierusalem euermore vnderstande thou the Churche , whiche is called the Cittie of Peace : The Fundations whereof are saide vpon the Mountaines of the Scriptures .

Ye magnifie your Churche of Rome , and saie , It shieth on highe vpon the Mounte . Yet S. Bernarde saithe to the Pope , and his Cleregie , as it is alleged before , Vos estis Tenebrae Mundi : Ye are the Darkenesse of the Worlde . Therefore ye maie not wel vaunte your selues so mutche of the brightnesse of your Beames . As for that , ye cal our Churche the Synagoge of Lucifer , and Antichriste , we maie wel suffer it to blowe euer , as the vaine vnsauery smoke of somme impatiente Cholerique humoure . Our cause is not the woorse , M. Hardinge , in the Iudgemente of the wise , for that you haue learned so readily to speake il .

But what Louanian vanitie is this , to saie , The Members of the Churche of Christe abide in the Vnitie of the Pope ? What Scripture , or Doctoure , or Father euer tolde you of sutche Vnitie ? S. Paule saith , Wee are alone not in the Pope , but ) in Christe Iesu . And what so greate Vnitie , can you saie , there is , or hathe benne in your Popes ? Platyna in Stephano . Platyna saithe , Post Stephanum semper haec consuetudo seruata est , vt acta Priorum Pontificum sequentes ant infringereat , aut omnino ' tollerent : It hathe benne an ordinarie custome emonge the Popes euer sithence the time of Pope Steuin , that the Popes , that folowed afterworde , would euermore either breake , or abolishe the Actes of the Popes , Erasmus in Annotationib . in 1. Corin. 7. that had benne before them . Erasmus saith , Iohannes . 22. & Nicolaus totis Decretis inter se pugnant , idque in his , quae videntur ad Fidei negotium pertinere : Pope Iohn . 22. and Pope Nicolas in theire whole Decrees are contrarie the one againste the other : yea , and that in maters , that seeme to belonge to cases of the Faithe .

To be shorte , the Popes haue fouly corrupted the Scriptures : they haue corrupted the Decrees , & Canons of Councelles : they haue benne Sorcerers , Idolaters , Scribes , & Phariseis : Thei haue benne Arian Heretiques : Nestorian Heretiques : Monothelite Heretiques : Montaniste Heretiques : thei haue mainteined damnable Heresies against the Godhed of Christe : against the Personne of Christe : against the Wil of Christe : & against the Immortalitie of the Soule : they haue henne contrarie to themselues , one directly , and expressely againste an other : Yet muste the Pope beare vp the whole Churche of God , euen as Atlas beareth vy the Heauens ? and onlesse al the worlde abide in him , is there no Vnitie in the Churche ?

Thus saith Hosius , Hosius in Petricouien . Confess . Ca. 27. Vnum praeesse toti Ecclesiae , vsque ade ò est necessarium , vt absque hoc Ecclesia Vna esse non possit : It is so necessarie a thinge , that one haue the gouernmente of the whole , that otherwise the Churche of God cannot be One.

Likewise it is noted in the Popes owne Gloses vpon his Decretalles , Constat Ecclesiam ideo esse vnam , quia in Vniuersali Ecclesia vnum est caput Supremum , scilicet , Papa : It is plaine , that the Churche is one , for that in the Vniuersal Churche there is one Supreme Heade , that is , the Pope . An other of your Doctours doubteth not to steppe yet a litle farther , Clemen . 5. Ad nostrum . In Glossa . Iohan. De Parisijs , De Potestate Regia , & Papali , Ca 3. and thus to expounde the woordes of Christe , Fiet Vnum Ouile , & Vnus Pastor : Quod quidem de christo intelligi non potest : Sed de aliquo alio Ministro , qui praesit loco eius : There shal be one Folde , and one Shepehearde . These woordes wee maie not vnderstande of Christe , but of somme other Minister , that ruleth in his roome . By whiche Doctours Catholique Iudgemente wée finde , that the Vnitie of the Churche hangeth not of Christe , but of the Pope .

But these be ouer vaine , and grosse vanities . For though the Pope , were no Pope , yea , though Antichriste were the Pope , yet is Christe hable to holde his Churche in perfite Vnitie . ●phesi . 4. S. Paule saithe , Christus est Caput , ex quo totum Corpus coagmentatur , & connectitur : Christe is the Heade , of whom the whole Body ( of the Churche ) is framed faste , and ioined togeather . Therefore S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. ad Colossen . Homi. 7. Citatur in Cathena in 1. Cap. Iohannis . Ex hoc capite Corpus habet , & vt sit , & vt bene sir . Quid relicto Capite Membris adhaeres ? Of this Heade ( that is Christe ) the Body hathe bothe to be , and also wel to be . What cleauest thou to the Members , and leauest the Heade ?

This is the Vnitie of the Churche , that the whole Flocke maie heare the voice of that One Shepehearde , and folowe him . And that one Shepehearde is Christe the Sonne of God , and not the Pope . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Per hanc Potestatem , quam solùm sibi Christus retinuit , stat Vnitas Ecclesiae , de qua dictum est , Vna est Columba mea : By this Power , whiche Christe ( he saithe not , hath geuen ouer the Pope , but ) hath reserued onely to him selfe , standeth the Vnitie of the Churche : of whiche Vnitie it is saide , My Dooue is One.

Ye saie , there appeareth in your Bookes sufficient abundance of Scriptures , touchinge any controuersie of this age , and that accordinge to the very sense , and meaninge of the same , togeather with the consente , and Iudgemente of the Holy Fathers . But as for vs , ye saie , wée builde onely vpon the bare woordes , and make a meaninge of oure owne .

In déede it is no greate Maisterie for you , to arme your selfe with somme shew of Scriptures . Matthae . 4. In Con. Chalcedon . Actione . 2. Athanas . contra Arianos Oratione . 1. Tertullian . De Baptismo . The Diuel was not altogeather voide of sutche furniture , when he came to tempte Christe . S. Cyril saithe , Omnes Haeretici de Scriptura diuinitùs inspirata sui colligunt erroris occasiones : Al Herotiques out of the Heauenly inspired Scriptures geather occasion of their erroure . Athanasius saithe , Haeretici Scriptutarum Verbis pro esca vtuntur : Heretiques vse the woordes of the Scriptures for a baite .

Tertullian saithe , Fidem ex his impugnat , ex quibus constat : An Heretique assausteth the Faithe by the same woordes of God , that breede the Faithe .

But for as mutche as ye saie , yee beare sutche awe , and reuerence vnto the Woorde of God , and in the interpretation thereof folowe onely the sense of the Holy Ghoste , and the Iudgemente of the Doctours and Fathers of the Churche , for somme trial of your truthe herein , let vs sée , how discretely , and reuerently ye haue vsed the same .

In your late Councel holden at Laterane in Rome , one Simon Begnius , the Bishop of Modrusia , Concil. Lateran . Session . 6. Pag. 601. saith thus vnto Pope Leo , Ecce venit Leo de Tribu Iuda , Radix Dauid &c. Te Leo Beatissime Saluatorem expectauimus &c. Beholde , the Lion is comme of the Tribe of Iuda , the Roote of Deuind &c. O moste Blessed Leo , wee haue looked for thee , to be oure Saueour . In your late Chapter at Tridente Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto saide thus , Concil. Trident. Cornelius Bitont inus . Papa Lux venit in Mundum : & dilexerunt homines tenebras magis , quàm Lucem . Omnis , qui màlè agit , odit lucem , & non venit ad Lucem : Abusinge of the scriptures . The Pope beinge the Lighte is comme into the Worlde : and menne haue loued the Darkenesse more then the Light . Euery man , that doothe euil , hateth ( the Pope that is ) the Lighte , and commeth not to the Lighte .

Pope Adrian saith , Concil. to . 2. Decreta collecta per Adrianum , Pag. 613. Papa non iudicabitur à quoquam : Quia Scriptum est , Non est Discipulus supra Magistrum : No man shal Iudge the Pope : for it is written , the Scholar is not aboue his Maister .

The Pope suffered the Embassadours of Sicilia to lie prostrate on the grounde , Paulus Aemylius , Lib. 7. and thus to crie vnto him , as if it had benne vnto Christe , Qui tollis Peccata Mundi , miserere nostri : Qui tollis Peccata mundi , dona nobis Pacem : O thou ( Holy Father ) that takest awaie the Sinnes of the Worlde , haue mercie vpon vs : thou , that takest awaie the Sinnes of the Worlde , geue vs Peace .

Pope Sixtus saithe , Who so accuseth the Pope , can neuer be forgeuen . And his reason is this , Concil. tomo . 1. In purgatione Sixti . Quia qui peccat in Spiritum Sanctum , non remittetur ei , neque in hac vita , neque in futura : He , that sinneth againste the Holy Ghoste , shal neuer be foregeuen , neither in this Worlde , nor in the Worlde to comme . And by these woordes of the Scriptures , so wel applied , he concludeth , that noman maie accuse the Pope . And , to leaue a heape of other examples ( for they are infinite ) , you your selfe , M. Hardinge , haue often vsed the Scriptures in like sorte .

Thus ye saie , M. Hard. fo. 99. a The Sonne of Man came not to destroie ( the Soules of menne ) but to saue : Ergo , The substance of Breade in the Sacramente is not annihilate , or consumed to nothinge .

And this , yee saie , was the Sense , and meaninge of the Holy Ghoste : this is the Iudgemente of al the Doctours , and Holy Fathers . Sutche religious awe , and reuerence ye beare towardes the Woorde of God . Yet saithe your Doctoure Hosius , Hosius Contra Brentium . Li. 4. Fol. 178. a. The Scripture , as it is alleged by vs , is the Woorde of the Diuel : but as it is alleged , and handled by you , so onely it is the Woorde of God . If yee had not vtterly wypte al shame from your faces , yée woulde neither make sutche mockeries of Goddes Holy Woorde , nor so lewdely abuse the people of God .

The Apologie , Cap. 19. & 20. Diuision . 1.

Woteth not the Bishop of Rome , that these thinges are spoken by his owne Minions ? or vnderstandeth he not , he hathe sutche Champions to fighte for him ? Let him herken then how Holily , & ho● Godly one Hosius writeth of this matter , a Bishop in Polonia , as he testifieth of him selfe : a man doubtlesse wel spoken , and not vnlearned , and a very sharpe , and a sto●●te mainteinour of that side . Thou wilt marueile , I suppose , how any good man could either conceiue so wickedly , or write so despitefully of those woordes , whiche , he knew , proceeded from Goddes mouthe , and specially in sutche sorte , as hée woulde not haue it seeme his owne priuate opinion alone , but the common opinion of al that bande . He dissembleth , I graunte you in deede , and hideth , what hee is , and setteth foorthe the matter so , as though it were not he , Hosius de Expresso Verbo Dei . and his side , but the zwenkfeldian Heretiques , that so did speake . Wee , saithe he , wil bidde awaie with the same Scriptures , whereof we see brought , not onely diuerse , but also contrarie interpretations : and we wil heare God speake , rather then wee wil resorte to the naked Elementes , or bare woordes of the Scriptures , and appointe oure Saluation to reaste in them . It behoueth not a man to be experte in the Lawe , and Scripture , but to bee taught of God . It is but loste laboure , that a manne bestoweth in the Scriptures . For the Scripture is a Creature , and a certaine bare Letter . This is Hosius saieinge , vttered altogeather with the same Sprite , & the same minde , wherewith in times paste the Heretiques Montanus and Marcion were moued , whoe , as it is written of them , vsed to saie , when with contempte thei reiected the Holy Scriptures , that them selues knewe many moe , and better thinges , then either Christe , or the Apostles euer knewe .

What then shal I saie heere , O ye principal Postes of Religion , O ye Archegouernours of Christes Churche : is this that your reuerence , whiche yee geue to Goddes Woorde ? The Holy Scriptures , whiche S. Paule saithe , came by the inspiration of God , whiche God did commende by so many Miracles , wherein are the moste perfite printes of Christes owne steppes , whiche al the Holy Fathers , Apostles , & Angels , whiche Christe him selfe the Sonne of God , as often as was needeful , did allege for testimonie and proufe , wil ye , as though they were vilwoorthy for you to heare , did them Auaunt ? That is , wil ye enioine God to keepe silence , who speaketh to you moste clearely by his owne mouthe in the Scriptures ?

Or , that Woorde , whereby alone , as Paule saithe , we are reconciled to God , and whiche , the Prophete Dauid saithe , is Holy , and Pure , and shal laste for euer , wil ye cal that but a bare , and deade Letter ? Or wil ye saie , that al our laboure is loste , whiche is bestowed in that thinge , whiche Christe hath commaunded vs diligently to searche , and to haue euermore before our eies ? And wil ye saie , that Christe , & the Apostles meante with suttletie to deceiue the people , when they exhorted them to reade the Holy Scriptures , that thereby they might flowe in al wisedome , and knowledge ? No marueile at al , though these men despise vs , and al our dooinges , seeinge they set so litle by God him selfe , and his infallible saieinges . Yet was it but wante of witte in them , to the intent they mighte hurte vs , to doo so extreme iniurie to the Woorde of God .

But Hosius wil here make exclamation , and saie , that wee doo him wronge , & that these be not his owne woordes , but the woordes of the Heretique zwenkfeldius . But how then , if zwenkfeldius make exclamation on the other side , and saie that the same very woordes be not his , but Hosius owne woordes ? For tel me , where hath zwenkfeldius euer written them ? Or if he haue written them , and Hosius haue iudged the same to be wicked , why hath not Hosius spoken so mutche as one woorde , to confute them ? How so euer the mater goe , although Hosius peraduenture wil not allowe of those woordes , yet he dothe not disallow the meaninge of the woordes .

For welueare in al Controuersies , & namely touchinge the vse of the Holy Communion vnder Bothe Kindes , although the woordes of Christe be plaine , and euident , yet dothe Hosius disdeinefully reiecte them , as no better , then Colde , & Dead Elementes : and commaundeth vs to geeue Faithe to certaine Newe Lessons , appointed by his Churche , and to , I wote not what , Reuelations of the Holy Ghoste . And Pighius saith , Menne ought not to beleue , no not the most cleare , & manifeste woordes of the Scriptures , onlesse the same be allowed for good by the Interpretation , & Authoritie of the Churche : whereby he meaneth the Churche of Rome .

M. Hardinge .

How ignorantly , wickedly , and stubbornely the Authour of this Apologie burdeneth the reuerent Father in God , and Honourable prelate Cardinall Hosius with that he neuer saide , it is not vnknowen to al men , who haue readen that Booke , whiche he wrote , De Expresso verbo Dei , of the expresse Woorde of God . Here I aske so muche pardon , as to detecte an hereticall touche or twoo , before I make direct answeare to the foule slaunderinge of Hosius .

Firste I note , with what fidelitie these newe Holy brethren doo their thinges . It maie be thought that the Secretary of this newe Clergie at his penninge of the Apologie , sawe not Hosius Booke of the expresse woorde of God . But as they haue benne conuersant in S. Augustine , Hierome , Chrysostome , and the Auncient Fathers , so vse they Hosius at this time : that is to saie , they reade neither the Olde Fathers with any diligence , neither the writers of our time : But by snappes and pieces either them selues write out here and there a line or two , or vse that , whiche some of their owne secte hath taken out of them . So that for moste parte they neuer knowe the true meaninge of the place , whiche they alleage . But vsinge patched note bookes , and bringinge in scattered Authorities , they be deceiued themselues , and deceiue others . And he that tooke the note , knewe well they were not the woordes of Hosius , and did but onely put the name of Hosius vnto them , because they were taken out of his Booke . The writer of this Apologie , not knowinge , or not remembringe so muche , when he founde in the note booke the name of Hosius with suche woordes , he did rashely put them in printe , to his owne greate shame , and discredite . If this excuse be not true , wee muste needes laie maruelous malice to the saide writer , who wittingly and of set purpose did impute the woordes to Hosius , whiche he reported by waie of mislikinge of them , and shewinge whose Heresie they conteined .

Now let the Defenders chose , whether they will haue their Secretarie condemned of ignorance , or of malice . How so euer it be , marke yet the thirde pointe , whiche hereof we wil gather . The Apologie was skant Printed and published , but that grosse errour was out of hande espied , and woorde thereof brought to the Authour , I meane him , that penned it . But what did he ? Did he confesse , that he was deceiued ? Did he crie Hosius mercie ? No , no. That is not the woonte of Heretikes . They wil go forewarde with the matter once begonne , what so euer come of it . What did he then ? When it shoulde be set foorthe in Englishe , and woorde came to him thereof , he made an excuse , I warraunt you meete for an Heretike , whose propertie it is Proficere in peius , as S. Paule saithe , to proceede to worse and worse , to take his degree backewarde , and of a great faulte to make a farre greatter . For whereas before ( as Charitiemoueth me to thinke ) he had made an errour , supposinge Hosius to haue saide that , whiche he had not , after warde by stubborne mainteininge of it , he sheweth what spirite he is of . And when he mighte reasonably haue excused his ignorance , chose rather spitefully to discouer his malice : As it shall manifestly appeare by the circumstance of the thinge . He laieth to Hosius charge , and in his persone to all our charges , that we do not esteeme the Holy Scriptures . He proueth it by certaine woordes alleaged out of a treatise made by Hosius De Expresso verbo Dei . The woordes are here put in the Apologie , as the reader maie see . The true argumente of Hosius booke is no other then to shewe , that all Heretikes haue alleaged the woordes of God , as they be written : But none of them all haue taken the righte vnderstandinge of Goddes woordes , as they doo in deede signifie . For that onely the Catholike Churche atteineth vnto , because onely it hath the Holy Ghoste . All Heretikes haue brought for their opinions the written Woorde of God so longe , vntill at the laste ( saithe Hosius ) there were founde , who by the woordes of the Scriptures toke vpon them to take away al Auctoritie from Scriptures . Natum est ( saithe he ) nouum quoddam Prophetarum genus , qui non sunt veriti Scripturarum auctoritate Scripturis auctoritatem omnem detrahere . En quò perduxit rem tandem Saranas ? A certaine newe kinde of Prophetes is risen , who sticke not by the Authoritie of Scriptures to take away al auctoritie from Scriptures . See whither at the length the Deuill hath brought the matter .

Now afterwarde expoundinge this matter more at large , he declareth the Capitaine of that Heresie to haue benne Zwenkfeldius . He sheweth that by a Texte of Scripture , where Dauid saithe , I will heare , what our Lorde speaketh in me : Zwenkfeldius wente aboute to wil men to heare what God telleth euery man by inspiration , rather then to geue attendance to the written woorde of God . And whiles Hosius reporteth , what Zwenkfeldius saide for the maintenance of his fonde Heresie , amonge other his woordes these are , which be brought in this Apologie against Hosius , and againste the Catholikes : whereas it is neither Hosius , nor any Catholike that speaketh them , but onely Zwenkfeldius him selfe .

Hitherto we haue shewed that the woordes alleaged in the Apologie vnder the name of Hosius , make neither againste him , nor against vs , as not beinge his woordes , nor ours , but onely the woordes of Zwenkfeldius . Well , what credite maie we geue to this man in expoundinge the Woorde of God , ( whose true meaninge he maie falsisie at his pleasure , because we can not bringe foorthe God him selfe to declare his woordes ) seeinge he dareth to burthen Hosius with these woordes , whiche Hosius him selfe beinge yet aliue can declare to haue another meaninge , as the Booke it selfe doothe witnesse to all that liste to reade the same . This was a greate faulte , to impure so horrible an Heresie to Hosius vniustly . This was a greate ignorance , to charge him with that Heresie , whiche he refuteth and impugneth . They are greate crimes , and yet suche , as might ri●e of misreporte and ignorance . But when he was tolde of them , he shoulde of reason haue corrected them . He should haue repented with Peter , and not despaired with Cain and Iudas .

But what did he , when he vnderstoode he had erred ? He addeth a Glose farre more malicious then the former errour was . For , graun●inge that Hosius setteth out the matter so , as though neither he , nor any of his side , but the Heretikes Zwenkfeldians spake so , this not withstandinge he burtheneth bothe him and the Catholikes with it , saieinge , that he dissembleth , and hideth what he is . Syr , was this the waie to amende your faulte , to graunt that Hosius spake against the Zwenkfeldians , and yet to beare men in hande , he fauoured them ? If he had fauoured their Heresie , what needed he to refell it ? But how saie you , that Hosius dissembleth and hideth what he is sith that euen here in two places in moste plaine woordes , you laie the Zwenkfeldian Heresie to his charge ? Reade your owne Booke . Before the allegation of Zwenkfeldius Heresie , saie you not thus ? We , saithe he , will bid away , &c. And after the allegation , haue you not these woordes , This is Hosius saieinge ? How standeth all this togeather ? You haue forgotten the Prouerbe , that biddeth a lier to be mindefull . I can not tell howe to name this kinde of your dealinge , lieinge , or detraction , slaunderinge , or malicious speakinge . But Sir , if Hosius haue spoken euill , why geue you not witnesse against him of euill ? If he haue spoken well , euen by your owne confession in reputinge the Zwenkfeldians for Heretikes , why finde you faulte with him for his good woordes , suche I saie , as your selfe confesse to be good ? You reprooue him , who speaketh not against Zwenkfeldius : and againe you graunt he speaketh against him : and yet because you had once reproued him , you will continewe in it without reason , learninge , or witte . But it must needes so be : for without pertinacie no man is either a perfite Heretike , or a perfite slaunderer .

If yet you stande in Defence of it , all the worlde will accompte you for a desperate persone . For no man that euer sawe Hosius woorkes , can thinke that he was gilty of that you burthen him with . But some man might thinke you were deceiued , and mistooke Hosius . But sith you graunt , you doo not now mistake him , and yet charge him with auouchinge that , whiche he holdeth for Heresie : he that vnderstandeth thus muche of you , maye assure him selfe , that you are disposed to belie and slaunder Hosius , though it coste you the damnation of your Soule . For shame man , repente , and reuoke that , for whiche your owne conscience stinteth not to barke at you .

But Hosius ( saie they ) peraduenture will not allowe the woordes of Zuenkfeldius : The mistakinge of Hosius . yet he doothe not disallowe the meaninge of the woordes . Well and clerkely reasoned . As though woordes were allowed or disallowed for any other so principall a cause , as for theire meaninge . And therefore he that disalloweth woordes , hath muche more disallowed the meaninge of them . Yet , ( saie they ) of the Holy Communion vnder Bothe Kindes he reiecteth the plaine woordes of Christe , as Deade and colde Elementes . Verely a man mighte thinke this Booke was set foorthe by some ennemie of our newe Englishe Clergie , it is so mutche to their defacinge , had not themselues at diuerse times acknowleged it for a whelpe of their owne littour . A man for his life can not finde one leafe in it without many Lies .

The B. of Sarisburie .

I cannot greately blame you , M. Hardinge , though yée shewe your selfe hote , and vehement in defence of Hosius . For of him you , and somme of your Felowes maie saie , as Carneades saide sommetime of Chrysippus , Nisi Chrysippus fuisset , ego non essem : If Chrysippus had not benne , then had I neuer benne . For had not Hosius benne good vnto you , and spared you parte of his furniture , sutche as it was , your Diuinitie had benne ful bare .

Ye saie , wée reade neither the Olde Writers , nor the Newe , but are vtterly ignorante , and voide of al learninge : and , in respecte of the Beames of your knowlege , knowe nothinge . It were a very ambitious , and a childishe vanitie , to make vauntes of Learninge . For as motche as ye seeme desirous of the same of greate Readinge , ye shal haue the whole praise , and glorie of it , M. Hardinge , without contention . Wée wil rather saie with S. Paule , Wee knowe nothinge , but onely Iesus Christe Crucified vpon his Crosse . Yet notwithstandinge wée are neither so ignorant , nor so idle , but that wee are hable , and haue leasure to reade , as wel the Olde Doctours , & the Fathers of the Churche , as also your lighte vnciuile Pamflettes , and blotted Papers : whiche , God wote , in al respectes are very Newe . And for either of them , wee are mutche ashamed in your behalfe : For the Olde Doctours , & Fathers , to see them of your parte , either of wilfulnesse , or of forgeatefulnesse , or of ignorance , so fowly misused : of your owne Papers , & Nouelties , to see them with vntruthe , and other vncourteous speache so fully freighted .

But , touchinge Hosius , yée condemne vs vtterly , either of ignorance , or of malice . For the woordes , wherein wée finde sutche faulte , were vttered by him , as you saie , not as any parte of his owne Iudgemente , but onely , as in the personne of the Heretique Zuenkfeldius . Therefore , ye saie , wée charge him wrongefully with the allowinge of that thinge , whiche he expressely , and plainely reproueth .

Firste of al , the Authour of the Apologie protesteth , that , if there were any ouersight herein , it procéeded onely of erroure , and not of malice : as it maie wel appeare , in that he was not deceiued alone . For if he were deceiued in mistakinge these woordes , diuerse others , the beste Learned of this age , haue benne deceiued therein as wel , as he . Nicolaus Gallus . Nicolaus Gallus hereof writeth thus , Hosius Cardinalis Legatus Sanctissimi , & praesidens Concili● Tridentini , in suo Libro de Expresso Verbo Dei , ait , Nos verò Dei de Coelo sententiam potiùs expectabimus &c. Non oportet Legis , aut Scripturae esse peritum , sed à Deo doctum . Vanus est labor , qui Scripturis impenditur . Scriptura enim Creatura est , & egenum quoddam Elementum : Cardinal Hosius , Legate vnto the most Holy Father , and President of the Councel of Trident , in his Booke , De Expresso Verbo Dei , saithe thus : We wil rather waite for Goddes wil from Heauen , &c. It behooueth not a man to be skilful in the Lawe of God , or in the Scriptures , but to be taught of God . It is but loste laboure that is spente in the Scriptures . For the Scripture is a Creature , and a poore kinde of out warde Elemente . Thus Nicolaus Gallus burdeneth your owne Catholique Frende Hosius with these woordes , and not the Heretique Zuenkfeldius .

Likewise saithe Flacius Illyricus , The mistakinge of Hosius . speakinge of the same woordes of Hosius , Vnum locum ex plurimis proferam , in quo Hosius alterius cuiusdam sententiam de hac re citans , Flacius Illyricus in Norma Concilij . comprobat : Nos Dei de Coelo Sententiam potiùs expectabimus &c. vanus est labor , qui Scripturis impenditur : One place I wil allege out of many , where Hosius bringinge in the saieinge of one certaine man ( meaninge Zuenkfeldius ) alloweth wel of the same . These woordes , saithe Illyricus , Hosius vttereth in the name , & personne of Zuenkfeldius : Yet neuerthelesse he alloweth them , as his owne .

To like pourpose writeth Iacobus Andreae : who , after he had reported al the foresaide woordes , Iacob . Andreae , De Authorita . Sacrae Scripturae . in the ende concludeth thus : Hactenus Hosius : Quae verba siue Hosius suo , siue aliorum nomine recitet , certè hanc else Asoti , & Hosij de Sacra Scriptura sententiam , non est obscurum : Thus farre Hosius : whiche woordes , how so euer Hosius reporte them , either in his owne name , or in the name of somme other , without al doubte , this is the Judgemente , that bothe Asotus , and Hosius haue of the Holy Scripture .

So likewise saith that moste Graue and Learned Father Iohannes Brentius : Intereà vociferantur , Iohan. B●● in Pra●● in lac●● 〈◊〉 dreae contra Hosium . Sacram Scripturam else Dubiam , Ambiguam , Praeceptorem Mutum , Literam Occidentem , Literam Mortuam : adeoque , fi Reuerendis illis Patribus libuerit , Aesopi Fabulas : In the meane while they crie out , that the Holy Scriptures are Blinde , and Doubteful : a Doumbe Scholemaister : a killinge Write : a deade Letter : yea , and , if it shal like these Reuerende Fathers , no better , then Esopes Fables . Perhaps ye wil saie of these Learned Menne , as yée saie of some others , Thei vsed onely their patched Notebookes , and scattered Authorities , by snappes , and peeces , here , and there a line , or twoo : and vnderstoode not , what they wrote . Notwithstandinge , what so euer it shal please you to saie , as therein your grace is very greate , yet you sée by these fewe , and muste néedes confesse , if the Authoure of the Apologie , thouchinge this place of Hosius , were happily ouerseene by erroure , yet he had to many of the beste Learned of this age , to keepe him companie in his erroure . Verily , they saie not , as you saie , Thus saithe Zuenkfeldius : They saie , as wée saie , Thus saith Hosius : It Hosius were hable to blinde so many , wée must thinke , he was a skilful Writer .

The fairest coloure , ye can laie hereon , is this : How so euer these woordes be vttered by Hosius , Iacob . Andreae . yet was this no parte of his meaninge . Yet Iacobus Andreae saith , Hanc else Asoti , & Hosij sententiam , non est obscurum : Without doubte this is the very meaninge of Alotus , Flaci . Illyricus : Alterius cuiusdam sententiam de hac re citans . comprobat . and Hosius . And Illyricus saith , Hosius alleginge the saieinge of one certaine man ( whereby he meaneth the Heretique Zuenkfeldius ) alloweth wel of the same .

But , for as mutche as yée saie , This Glose is more maliceous , then the Former Erroure : and that therein wee spitefully discouer our Malice , without Reason , without Learninge , without Witte : and require vs to repente for shame , as if it were a Sinne , not againste Hosius , but againste the Holy Ghoste , I beseche you therefore indifferently to consider , with what reuerence , and modestie , not onely Hosius , but also sundrie others your Frendes of that side , haue vsed to speake , and write of the Woorde of God .

Ludouicus a Canon of the Churche of Laterane in Rome , in an Oration openly pronounced in your late Chapter at Tridente , Ludouicus , Citatur ab Illyrico in Norma Concilij . saithe thus : Ecclesia est Viuum pectus Christi : Scriptura autem est quasi Mortuum Atramentum : The Churche is the Liuely Breaste of Christe : But the Scripture is , as it were , Deade Inke . Likewise saide the Bishop of Poiters in the same your Chapter : Scriptura est res manimis , & muta , Iohan. Sleidanus Lib. 23. sicut etiam sunt reliquae Leges Politicae : The Scripture is a Deade , and Doumbe thinge , as are al other Politique Lawes . Albertus Pigghius saithe , Si dixeris , haec referri oportere ad Iudicium Scripturarum , Albert. Pigghius Controuer. 3. De Ecclesia . Communis re sensus ignarum esse comprobas . Sunt enim Scripturae Muti Iudices : If thou saie , These maters muste be put ouer to the Iudgemente of the Scriptures , thou she west thee selfe to be voide of common reason . For the Scriptures are doumbe Iudges , and cannot speake . Eckius calleth the Scriptures , The mistakinge of Hosius . Euangelium Nigrum , & Theologiam Atramentariam : The Blacke Gospel , and Inken Diuinitie . Againe Pigghius saithe , Ecclesia habet illam potestatem , Martinus Kemnitius in Examine Con. Tridentini , Pag. 32. Martin . Kemnitius , in eodem Examine , Pag. 240. vt possit Scriptis quibusdam impertiri Canonicam Authoritatem , quam nec ex se , nec ex suis Authoribus habent : The Churche hath power to geeue Canonical Authoritie vnto certaine Writinges , whiche otherwise they haue not , neither of them selues , nor of their Authours . There maie be certaine Bookes allowed for Scripture , saithe he , that haue no credite , nor Authoritie of them selues . Therefore the meaninge hereof must néedes be this : The Churche ( of Rome ) hath Authoritie to make Scriptures . Againe he saithe , Sunt Scripturae , vt , non minùs verè , quàm festiuè dixit quidam , velut Nasus Cereus , qui se horsum , illorsum , & in quancunque volueris partem , Pigghius Hierar . Li. 3. Cap. 3. Fol. 103. trahi , retrahi , fingique facilè permittit : As one man bothe truely , and merily saide , the Scripture is like a Nose of Waxe , that easily suffereth it selfe to be drawen backewarde , and forewarde , and to be moulded , and falshioned , this waie , and that waie , and how so euer yee liste .

Thus , M. Harding , yée teache the people to reuerence , & weighe the Woorde of God . Ye calle it Deade Inke : a Liuelesse mater : a doumbe Iudge , that cannot speake : a Blacke Gospel : Inken Diuinitie : a Nose of waxe : and a thinge vtterly voide of Authoritie of it selfe . Examine these places : weigh these woordes . They are no Lies : They are no Sclaunders . Iudge vprightly : remoue affection : ye shal finde , that Hosius , and Zuenkfeldius , touchinge the Authoritie , and Credite of Goddes Woorde , accorde in one . For proufe whereof , when obiection was made , that Kinge Dauid , beinge , not a Bishop , but onely a Temporal Prince , had written Psalmes , that is to saie , the very kete of the Scriptures , Hosius made answeare , Hosius Lib. 2. Contra Brentium . Quid ni scriberet ? Scribimus indocti , doctique poëmata passim : Wrote Dauid Psalmes ? And why shoulde he not write them ? Horace saith , Wee write Ballades euery body , learned , and vnlearned : tagge , and ragge . So vnreuerently , & like an Heathen , he scorneth , and scoffeth at the scriptures of God , and likeneth the Heauenly Ditties of the Holy Ghoste , to a Vile , Heathenishe , Wanton ballade . This in Zuenkfeldius had benne great Blasphemie : Yée allowe it in Hosius , as a vertue .

S. Luke . 7. Luke saithe , Pharisaei , & Iurisperiti spreuerunt consilium Dei in semetipsis : The Phariseis , and Learned in the Lawe despised the Councel of God in them selues . Irenaeus saithe , Irenae . Li. 3. ca. 2. Haeretici accusant Scripturas , quasi non rectè habeant , necsint ex Authoritate , &c. Heretiques finde faulte with the Scriptures , as if they were not wel written , and as if they were not of sufficient Authoritie , &c. And thus they doo , to the ende , to cause the people to lothe , & doubte the Woorde of Life , & so to becomme captiue to their owne Traditions . Cardinal . Cusan . De Authorita . Ecclesiae , & Concilij Supra , & Contra Scripturam . Therefore Cardinal Cusanus saithe thus , Haec est omnium sanè intelligentium sententia : qui Scripturarum Authoritatem , & intellectum in Ecclesiae approbatione fundant : & non è conuerso , Ecclesiae Fundamentum in Scripturarum Authoritate locant , &c. Dico , nulla else Christi praecepta , nisi quae per Ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt : This is the Iudgemente of al them , that meane wel : whiche founde the Authoritie , and vnderstandinge of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Churche : But contrarie wise laie not the Fundation of the Churche in the Authoritie of the Scriptures . Thus I saie , There are no Commaundementes of Christe , but onely sutche , as by the Churche are allowed for Christes Commaundementes . Albert. Pigghius Hierar . Lib. 1. Ca. 2. So saithe your highest Doctoure Albertus Pigghius , A postoli quaedam conscripserunt , non vt Scripta illa praeessent Fidei , & Religioni nostrae , sed potiùs vt subessent : The Apostles wrote certaine thinges , not that their Writinges shoulde be aboue our Faithe , Iohan. Maria Verractus . Editus . An. 1561. Hosius , De Expresso Verbo Dei Pa. 97. and Religion , but rather , that they shoulde be vnder . Iohannes Maria Verractus saithe , Determinatio Ecclesiae appellatur Euangelium : The Determination of the Churche is called the Gospel .

Therefore Hosius by his Episcopal Authoritie pronounceth Sentence Definitiue in this wise : Quod Ecclesia docet , Expressum Dei Verbum est : quod contra Sensum , The mistakinge of Hosius . & Consensum Ecclesiae docetur , Expressum Diaboli Verbum est : What so euer the Churche teacheth ( by the Churche he meaneth the Pope , and his Cardinalles , and the Churche of Rome , &c. ) that is the Expresse Woorde of God : what so euer is taught againste the Meaninge , and Consente of the Churche , that is the Expresse Woorde of the Diuel .

This was sommetime an ordinarie practise of sundrie Olde Heretiques , to scorne , and to disdeigne the Scripures of God : and to grounde them selues vpon other Conclusions , and imaginations of theire owne . So the Heretique Carpocrates saide , Epiphani . Lib. 1. Haere . 27. Tertullian . De Praescription . He knewe more , then either Christe him selfe , or his Apostles .

Tertullian saithe , Discipuli Montani dicunt , Paracletum plura in Montano dixisse , quàm Christum in Euangelio protulisse : nec tantùm plura , sed etiam meliora atque maiora : The Disciples of Montanus the Heretique said , that the Holy Ghoste vttered moe thinges in Montanus theire Maister , then euer Christe vttered in the Gospel : and not onely moethinges , but also greatter , and better thinges . And againe they saide , Paulus ex parte sciebat , & ex parte prophetabat . Nondum enim venerat , quod perfectum est : Paule knewe in parte , Augustin . ad Quoduulideum . and prophesied in parte . For the perfection ( that was afterwarde in Montanus ) was not yet comme . Therefore it is not vniuersally true , M. Hardinge , that you saie , Al Heretiques haue alleged the Scriptures . For somme Heretiques , in whoes steppes ye séeme to treade , haue made lighte of , and disdeigned the Scriptures , as wel , as you . But , as somme Heretiques haue alleged the Scriptures , as you doo , without sense : euen so al Heretiques are euermore reproued by the Scriptures , as you bée . And that is the cause , that you , and your Felowes , for the most parte , so fearefully shunne the Scriptures . For he that dooth euil , fleeth the Light .

Therefore , wereas ye cal vs foorthe , and bidde vs humbly to crie you mercie , firste bidde Hosius your Scholemaister to recante his Errours : wil him to speake more reuerently of Goddes Woorde : for it is Holy : Let him confesse , & repente his Blasphemie in comparing the Scriptures of God with Heathenishe Ballades . Recante you the Errours , that Pigghius , Cusanus , Eckius , and others your Doctoures , and Felowes haue set abroade : And the Authoure of the Apologie shal doo , what so euer shal behoue him .

Remember also , howe vniuste , and vntrue reportes you your selfe , and your Felowes haue witingly , and willingly published , and blased in writinge , not sparinge any man , whom it pleased you to touche with sclaunder . You your selfe in this selfe same Booke haue written thus : M. Har. Fol. 141. b. The Learned Gospellers of the Sea Townes in Saxonie teache , that there is no Helle at al.

An other of your Companie there , thus moste vniustly sclaundereth that godly Father Doctoure Peter Martyr : Copus Dialo . 3. Pag. 331. Petrus Martyr negat , Christum else nostrum Deprecatorem : Peter Martyr denieth , that Christe is our Intercessoure . Likewise againe , with one general sclaunder , he misreporteth al the Professours of the Gospel what so euer : Copus Dialo . 6. Pag. 878. Omnes Euangelici Pseudomartyres negant Christum venisse in Carne : Al the Gospellers ( whom he thought it better , to calle the False witnesses of the Gospel ) denie that Christe euer came in the Fleashe . I wil presse you no further with Examples of your immoderate sclaunders . As your vncourteous tongue hath no bridle , so your waste woordes haue no ende .

Al these , and other like reportes , your conscience knoweth , are moste vntrue . Yet haue ye not doubted , thus to hasarde your whole credite , and vainely with the same to féede the world . Suffer me therefore , M. Hardinge , to answeare you with your owne woordes : For shame man , repente , and reuoke that , for whiche your owne Conscience stinteth not to barke againste your selfe .

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 1.

And yet , as though this were too litle , they also burne the Holy Scriptures , as in times paste wicked Kinge Aza , or as Antiochus , or Maximinus did , and are woonte to name them Heretiques Bookes . Eusebius . Lib. 1. Cap. 7. And out of doubt , as it seemeth , thei would doo , as Herode in olde time did in Iewrie , that hee might with more surety keepe stil his vsurped Dominion . Who being an Idumean borne , and a straunger to the stocke , and kinred of the Iewes , and yet couetinge mutche to be taken for a Iewe , to th ende he might establishe to him , and his Posteritie the Kingdome of that Countrie , whiche he had gotten of Augustus Caesar , he commaunded al the Gen●alogies , and Petigrees to be burnt , and made out of the waie , so that there should remaine no recorde , whereby it might be knowen to them that came after , that he was an Alien in bloude : whereas euen from Abrahams time these monumentes had benne safely keapte amongest the Iewes , and laide vp in theire treasurie : bicause in them it might easily , and moste assuredly be founde , of what linage euery one did descende . So ( in good faithe ) doo these menne , when they woulde haue al theire owne dooinges in estimation , as though they had benne deliuered to vs euen from the Apostles , or from Christe him selfe : to th ende there might be founde no where any thinge hable to conuince sutche theire dreames , and lies , either they burne the Holy Scriptures , or els they craftily conueigh them from the people .

M. Hardinge .

Pardon me , I praie thee , Reader , if I vse woordes some what vehemente , the cause so requiringe . This Defender crieth out , O ye pillours of Religion . But how mutche more iustly crie we againe to him O thou captaine lier , O moste woorthy , not the rewarde of a whetstone , but the iudgemente of abackebiter , of a slaunderer , a cursed speaker , of a mocker , of the accuser of the brethren , of a Blasphemer : Is this the regarde thou haste , Al this is M. Hardinges sobrietie : It is no railinge . I saie not to God , or to Christen men , but to thine owne estimation , and common honestie of a man ? Canste thou persuade thy selfe to greate credite by lieinge ? To seme sober by railinge ? Honeste by villanie ? Charitable by slaunderinge ? Vpright by deceit ? Iuste by impietie ? Why saiest thou of vs in general , that is to saie , of the Catholike Churche , that we despise , hate , caste awaie , and burne the Holy Scriptures ? Had we not loued and kepte the Scriptures , howe couldest thou and thy fellowes haue comme by them ? Had ye not them of vs ? From the Apostles time to this daie we haue kepte them ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the Olde Latine texte hath infinite corruptions . vnspotted and vndefiled : and ye within these fifty yeres haue by your vulgare translations * * Vntruthe . Otherwise let M. Hirdinge shewe one pointe of Corruption . corrupted them , that lamentable it is to consider . And when we burned the same corrupte translations or any parte thereof , or any of your Heretical treatises , we burned not the Scriptures , ‡ ‡ But he is a foolishe man , that burneth downe bothe the Trees and Caterpillers al togeather . no more then one dothe the apple tree , that burneth the caterpillers .

The Scriptures we honourè , and kepe moste reuerently and diligently . Therefore your comparinge of vs with the wicked Kinges Aza , Antiochus , Maximinus , and Herode , is false and slaunderous . For how saie you , Sir Captaine of liers , ‡ ‡ You had it in your Libraries . But the poore people had it not . had we not the Scripture in euery Monasterie , Cathedral Church , college , in euery priuate library of any that was lerned ?

The like thinge was obiected to S. Augustine and the Catholikes in his time by the Donatistes , beinge then Heretikes , as ye are nowe . To whom he answeareth , as we wil answeare you : Certè ille ignibus tradidisse credatur , qui eis lectis non consentire conuincitur . 〈◊〉 Let him be thought to haue caste they Holy Scriptures into the fire , who , when they are reade , is conuict not to consente vnto them . We reade in the Holy Scriptures , that Christe said , This is my Body . Who beleueth it , Burninge of the Scriptures ye , * * Vntruthe . For we denie it not . that denie it , or we , who are contente to die for the defence of that his real body in the blessed Sacramente ? S. Iames saithe , a man is iustified by woorkes , and not by faithe onely . Who beleueth thus , they , whiche saie that onely faith iustifieth , or they whiche saie , that woorkes be required also to iustifie action ? Ioan. 6. Christ saith , ‡ ‡ A woorthy Argumente , and ful wisely applied . Reade the Answeare , Qui manducat hunc panem , viuet in Aeternum : he that eateth this breade , shal liue for euer . ‡ Who beleueth this , they that saie both kindes be necessarie to laie men by commaundement of Christe , or they , who saie , that one kinde is sufficiente to saluation concerninge the eatinge of the Sacramente .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Ye maie soone be Pardoned , M. Hardinge , for speakinge il : for as mutche as , for ought , that maie appeare by youre speache , ye haue not yet learned to speake wel . Whether ye haue burnte the Scriptures of God , or no , bothe Heauen , and Earthe , and Sea , and Lande maie beare witnesse . For a poore excuse , ye saie , ye haue burnte our Errours , and Heretical Translations , and not the Scriptures : as the Housbandeman vseth to burn Caterpillers . Howe be it , he maie be thought an vnwise Housbandeman , that burneth vp his Caterpillers , & Trées too , bothe togeather : and , to wreake him selfe of the one , is contente to destroie the other . If al Bookes conteininge Erroure should be burnte , then should your Louanian Nouelles goe to wracke . For yewis , M. Hardinge , contention , and vaine glorie set a part , ye know right wel , thei are ful of Errours . Moreouer ye knowe , there be Errours in S. Augustine : There be Errours in Origen , in Tertullian , in S. Ambrose , in S. Hierome . There be Errours in euery of the Aunciente Fathers : in the Greekes : in the Latines : in one , and other . There be Errours in your Schole Doctoures : There be Errours in your Canonistes : Briefely , your Holy Fathers Decrees , & Decretalles are not voide of Errours . Yet is there no Booke woorthy to be burnte , in respecte of Erroure , but onely the Booke of the Scriptures ?

If there were sutche Errours in the Vulgare Translations , ye shoulde haue discried them , although not al , yet for your credites sake , one at the least . Ye should haue remoued the Errour , and haue restoared the Scriptures , to the vse , and comforte of the people . But this is it , that troubleth you so soare : that the Scriptures are published in the Common knowen tongues , and that the simple people of al sortes ( whom otherwise ye cal Dogges , and Swine , & filthy brute Beastes voide of reason ) maie vnderstande them . This , M. Hardinge , is that greate , and horrible Errrour : This is the Erroure of al Errours . Therefore Irenaeus saithe , as it is alleged before , Irenae . Li. 1. Ca. 2. Haeretici , cùm ex Scripturis arguuntur , in accusationem vertuntur Scripturarum : Heretiques , when they be reproued by the Scriptures , then beginne they to finde faulte with the Scriptures . Ambros . in Lucan Lib. 3. Cap. 3. And therefore S. Ambrose saith , Herodes conscius ignobilitatis suae , Scripturas incendit : ne qua Posteris suis , vel de praescripto Veteri quaestio moueretur : existimans , quòd si Indicia de publico sustulisset , nullis alijs Testimonijs clarere posset , quin de Patriarcharum , & Proselytorum Veterum genere emanaret : King Herode , for that he wel vnderstoode the basenesse of his House , therefore he burnte the Scriptures : leaste that , by meane of sutche Ancient Recordes , somme doubte might afterwarde be moued against his posteritie . For he thought , if he had once remoued sutche Monumentes , it could neuer be proued by any manner other witnesse , but that he came by descente from the stocke of the Patriarkes , and Olde Proselytes : Whereas in deede he was amere altene , and a stranger to the House of Israel , and a very tyrannous Vsurper of the Crowne , as beinge lineally descended , not from Iacob , but from Esau .

But ye saie , You haue keapte , and preserued the Scriptures , in your Libraries , in veleme , and , I trowe , in letters of golde . Euen in like sorte , and with like truthe ye might saie , that you haue keapte the Sonne , and the Moone : and , had it not benne for your kéepinge , they had benne loste . It was God , M. Hardinge , that of his Mercie preserued his Holy Worde : euen as he preserued Daniel in the Caue of Lions : Ionas in the Whales belly : Keepinge of the Scriptures The three Children in the middes of the flaming Fire . Yée kéepe the Scriptures as the Dogge keepeth the haie : whiche neither eateth it him selfe : nor suffereth the poore hungrie cattle , that faine woulde eate it : Yée kéepe them in warde , in duste , & moulde : as the Iewes , before the time of Kinge Iosias , keapte the Booke of Deuteronomie closely in the corners , 2. Regum . 22. or emongest the treasures of the Temple : so , the noman knewe , where to finde it . Had it not benne for Goddes special prouidence , notwithstandinge your kéepinge , they might haue perished .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost in Epis. ad Hebraeos , Homil. 8. Nunc neque an sint Scripturae quidam sciunt : Spiritus tamen ita dispensauit , vt custodiantur : Now a daies there are somme , that cannot tel , whether there be any Scriptures , or no. Yet hath the Sprite of God so prouided , that they are stil preserued .

Thus the Iewes made theire vauntes , that they were the keepers of the Lawe , & that the Christians had al of them . S. Augustine saith , Iudaei dicunt , non Nostra nos Lege vti , August . In quaestionibus ex Veteri Testament . quaest 44. Paulus Phagius in Deuter. Ca. 17 sed Sua : The Iewes saie , That wee haue no Lawe of our owne , but onely theires . Likewise euen at this daie the Iewes keepe , & vse the Lawe of God with al reuerence : They neuer laie any other Booke vpon the Bible : Thei wasshe theire handes , before they touche it : They wil not sit vpon the benche , where the Bible lieth : As often , as they either open it , or shutte it , they vse to kisse it : when the Pope goeth through Rome to his Palace of Laterane , the Iewes méete him vpon the waie , and offer him the Bible , and desire him reuerently to embrace it , as though the Pope coulde haue no Bible , but onely of them . Al these thinges notwithstandinge , the Pope answeareth them of course , euen as wée maie answeare you : Sanctam Legem , viri Hebraei , & laudamus , & veneramur : obseruantiam verò vestram , Ceremoniar . Li. 1. Cap 8. & vanam interpretationem damnamus , & improbamus : Ye menne of the Iewes Profession , wee praise , and honoure the Holy Lawe : But your Tradition , and vaine Interpretation wee vtterly condemne , and reproue .

For Chrysostome saithe , Chryso . in Matt. Homil. 33. Nihil nunc apud Iudaeos remansit , nisi Sola Scriptura Librorum , omni Legis obseruantia pereunte : There remaineth nowe nothinge emonge the Iewes , but onely the writinge conteined in Bookes : for al the obseruation of the Lawe is paste from them . Chrysosto . in Cenesim , Homil. 8. Chrysostom . in Psalm . 117. Againe he saithe , Literae quidem Legis apud illos sunt : Sensus autem est apud nos : The Letters of the Lawe are with the Iewes : But the Sense , and Meaninge is with vs . Likewise he saith vnto the Iewes , Vos complicatis membranas animaltum mortuorum : Nos possidemus Spiritum viuificautem : You turne the leaues of the Scriptures , made of the skinnes of deade Cattle : but we haue the Sprite , that geeueth Life . August de Fide rerum inuisibil . Cap. 6. August . Contra Fausium Mantchae . Lib. 16. Cap. 21. So saithe S. Augustine : Iudaei in Libris suffragatores nostri sunt : in Cordibus hostes nostri : The Iewes healpe vs , and aide vs with theire Bookes : But thei are our enimies in theire hartes . Againe he saith , Magnum aliquid actum est in vsum nostrum de Infidelirate Iudaeorum : vt ijdem ipsi , qui haec propter se non haberent in Cordibus , ea propter nos haberent in Codicibus : Somme greate good thinge is wrought to our vse by the infidelitie of the Iewes : that they , that , to doo them selues good , had not these thinges in theire hartes , yet for our sakes , to doo vs good , shoulde haue same thinges in theire Bookes .

Speake not therefore so mutche , M. Hardinge , of your safe keepinge of the Scriptures For the Jewes haue keapte , and vntil this daie doo kéepe them as safely , as you . Yae keapte the Scriptures , as the Augures of Rome sommetime keapte the Sibylles Bookes : that is to saie , yée keapte them to your selues , in close prisonne , & in secresie : that the people should knowe nothing , but in al cases should be forced to seeke to you . Thus ye keapte the Light in Darknesse : and , as S. Paule saithe , Roman 1. Chryso in Matt. Homil. 35. ye keapte the Truthe of God in Wickednesse .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Quando vides Scripturas Prophetarum , & Euangelij , & Apostolorum traditas esse in manus Falsorum Sacerdotum , num intelligis , quód Verbum veritatis traditum est Principibus iniquis , & Scribis ? When thou seeste the Scriptures of the Prophetes , of the Gospel , and of the Apostles to be deliuered into the handes of False Priestes , This is my Body . dooste thou not vnderstande , that the Woorde of Truthe is deliuered vnto the wicked Princes , and vnto the Scribes ? To be short , I maie answeare you with the woordes of Chrysostome , Arcas , & Scrinia rerum pretiosissimarum adhuc seruatis , Chrysostom . in 1. Corin. Homi. 37. The sauro destituti : Yee keepe stil the Cheastes , and boxes of moste pretious thinges : but the Iewelles , and Treasures be cleane gonne . Therefore , your safe kéeping of the Scriptures notwithstandinge , wée maie saie to you , as S. Augustine sommetime said to the Heretique Petilian : Iudas Christum Carnalem tradidit : Tu Spiritualem : furens Euangelium sanctum flammis sacrilegis tradidisti : Augusti . Contra Literas Petilia . Lib. 2. Cap. 7. Iudas betraiede Christe Carnal : thou haste betraied Christe Spiritual : for thou in thy rage haste deliuered the Holy Gospel vnto wicked fires .

Yée replie , You rather haue burnte the Gospel : for that you denie the woordes of the Gospel . For example ye allege these woordes of Christe , This is my Body : whiche woordes , ye saie , of our part are denied . God be thanked , as wee haue not burnte , so haue wée not denied any woorde , or parcel of the Gospel . Touchinge these wordes by you alleged , wée embrace them , and reuerence them , and beleue them , euen as the Woordes of Christe . But wée embrace them , not as you haue fondely rackte , & wreasted them , and fowly abused them , by your vaine Constructions : but as Christe meante them , and as the Aunciente Catholique Fathers in the Olde times haue expounded them . Chrysostom . in Iohan. Homi. 14. S. Chrysostome saithe , Sacrae Scripturae Verba non vult Deus , vt Simpliciter , sed multa cum prudentia intelligantur : God wil not , that we shoulde vnderstande the woordes of the Holy Scripture simply and plainely , as thei lie , but with greate wisedome , Chrysosto . in Iohan . Homil. 39. and discretion . Againe he saithe , Diligenter inuigilandum est : vel potiùs Diuina Gratia opus est , ne nudis verbis insistamus . Ita Haeretici in Errorem incidunt : Wee must take great heede : or rather we haue neede of the Grace of God , that wee reaste not vpon the bare Woordes of the Scriptures . For by that meanes Heretiques fal into Erroure . August . ad Consentium . li. 1. ca. 10. Hierony . ad Galat. Cap. 1. S Augustine saithe , Omne Figuratè , aut factum , aut dictum , hoc enuntiat , quod Significat : Euery thinge that is either donne , or spoken in a Figure , sheweth foorth the same thinge , that it Signifieth . S. Hierome saithe : Ne puremus in Verbis Scripturarum esse Euangelium , sed in Sensu : Let vs not thinke that the Gospel standeth in the Woordes of the Scripture , but in the Meaninge .

Againe he saithe , Hieron . in Matt. Cap. 16. Cùm Seniores putentur in Ecclesijs , & Principes Sacerdotum , Simplicem sequentes Literam , occidunt Filium Dei : Whereas thei be taken for the Elders of the Churche , and the Chiefe of the Priestes , folowinge the Plaine Letter , ( as it is written , and not regardinge the meaninge ) they kille the Sonne of God .

Let vs sée therefore , in what sense the Holy Catholique Fathers haue in Olde times expounded these Woordes of Christe .

First , Tertullian saithe thus , Christus acceptum Panem , & distributum Discipulis , Corpus suum illum fecit , Tertullian . Contra Marcionem . Lib. 4. Augusti . Contra Adiman . Cap. 12. Hoc est Corpus meum , hoc est , Figura Corporis mei : Christe taking the Breade , and diuiding it to his Disciples , made it his Body , saieing : This is my Body , that is to saie , This is a Figure of my Body . S. Augustine saith , Non dubitauit Dominus dicere , Hoc est Corpus meum , cùm daret Signum Corporis sui : Our Lorde doubted not to saie , This is my Body , when he gaue a Token of his Body . I leaue infinite other Authorities to like pourpose . By these fewe we maie easily perceiue , in what sense the Holy Fathers in Olde time vnderstoode these Wordes of Christe , This is my Body . Yet were thei neuer therefore condemned of . Heresie , nor thought to denie any parcel of the Scriptures . S. Augustine saith , August . in quaessionib . in Leuit. quaest. 57. Solet res , quae Significat , eius rei nomine , quam Significat . nuncupari : Hinc est , quod dictum est , Petra erat Christus . Non enim dicit , Petra Significat Christum : Sed , tanquam hoc esset , quoód vtique per Substantiam non erat , sed per Significationem : The thinge that Signifieth , is Commonly called by the name of that thinge , that it Signifieth . Therefore is it , that S. Paule saithe , The Rocke was Christe . For he saithe not , The Rocke signified Christe ( but , This is my Body . The Rocke is Christe ) As if the Rocke had benne Christe in deede : whereas , touchinge the Substance , it was not so : but so it was by Signification .

In this sorte is the Breade Christes Body : not verily , and in déede : but , as S. Augustine saithe , after a certaine phrase , or manner of speache . And so is it noted euen in your owne Glose , De Cons. Dist. 2. Hoc est . In Gloss . Vocatur Corpus Christi , id est , Significat Corpus Christi : The Breade is called the Body of Christe : that is to saie , The Breade Signifieth the Body of Christe . Thus wée denie not Christes Woordes , M. Hardinge : But we denie the fonde , and fantastical senses , that you haue imagined of Christes Woordes . Therefore where you allege these woordes , as spoken by S. Augustine , He is a burner of the Scriptures , that consenteth not vnto the Scriptures , Yée might haue remembred , Augu. Epist 162. that the same S. Augustine likewise saithe , Ille credatur Testamentum tradidisse flammis , qui contra Voluntatem litigat Testatoris : He is to be thought , to haue deliuered the Testamente to the fire , that quarrelleth ( as you doo ) againste the wil , and meaninge of him , that made the Testamente . S. Gregorie saithe , Facilè in verbis agnoscimus aliud esse , quod intimant , aliud , quod sonant : Tanto ' autem quisque notitiae illius Extraneus redditur . Gregorius in Iob. Lib. 4. Ca. 1. quanto ' in Sola eius Superficie ligatur : In wordes wee doo wel perceiue , that there is one thing , that they Signifie , and an other thing , that they sound . And the more a man bindeth him selfe to the owtwarde sight , and shewe of the Letter , the further of is he from the vnderstandinge of the same .

The obiection of difference , that ye make bitwéene S. Iames , and S. Paule , ( S. Augustine saithe ) is made by them that vnderstand , neither S. Iames , Augu. in Lib. 83. quaestionum q. 76. Parte . 1. Ca. 10. Diui. 1. nor S. Paule , The whole force thereof is answeared before . It is easy to sée , that S. Paule speaketh of one Kinde of Woorkes , and S. Iames of an other : & againe , S. Paule of one kinde of Iustification , and S. Iames of an other . Therefore this difference is soone auoided . Certainely wee denie neither S. Paule , nor S. Iames : nor thinke , the one of them to be contrarie to the other .

Touchinge the Woordes of Christe , that ye haue alleged out of S. Iohn , it appeareth , ye were in somme baste , Iohan. 6. and therefore were faine to take , that came firste to hande . For I wil not saie , M. Hardinge , what Doctoure , or Father , but , what drifte , or discretion of Common sense euer taught you to reason thus ? Christe saithe , He that Eateth of this Breade shal liue for euer : Ergo , The people muste receiue the Communion vnder One kinde . Remnitius in Examine Conci . Triden . Pag. 598. Freere Eckius your Felow reasoneth with like discretion to like pourpose :

Geue vs , saithe he , our daily Breade :

Ergo , Wee maie restraine the people from the Cuppe .

Perhaps ye wil saie , The name of Breade belongeth to Eatinge onely , and not to Drinkinge . This maie be graunted wel without preiudice . Notwithstandinge , S. Cyprian doubted not to saie , Cyprian . De Coena Domini . In eodem Serm. Manducauerunt , & Biberunt de eodem Pane : They did bothe Eate , and Drinke of one Breade . And againe he saithe , Manducamus & Bibimus eius Sanguinem : Wee Eate and Drinke his Bloude .

How be it , in déede these woordes of Christe in the sixthe of S. Iohn , belonge onely to the Spiritual Eatinge , and drinkinge of Christes Body , and Bloude , ( that is wrought , not by the Mouthe , but onely by Faith ) and nothinge to the outward Ministration of the Sacramente . Nicolaus Lyra , in Psalm . 110. Your owne Doctoure Nicolas Lyra saith , Haec verba nihil directè pertinent ad Sacramentalem , vel Corporalem Manducationem . Nam hoc verbum dictum fuit , antequam Sacramentum Eucharistiae esset institutum . Ex illa igitur Litera de Sacramentali Communione non potest fieri Argumentum efficax : These Woordes of Christe in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn , directely perteine nothing to the Sacramental , or Corporal Eatinge . For these woordes were spoken longe before the Sacramente was ordeined . Therefore of this place there can be made no good sufficiente Argumente , touching the Sacramental Communion . You saie , your proufe , taken of these woordes is sufficient , Communion vnder one kinde . & therewith ye deceiue the Ignorant . Lyra saithe , It is not sufficient . Now let your indifferente Reader Iudge , whether of you twoo is deceiued .

And , whereas ye woulde seeme to saie , Christe gaue no Commaundemente of Bothe kindes , to be receiued of the people , Euen so , and with lyke truethe yee might also saie , Christe gaue no Commaundemente , no not of one kinde at al to be receiued of the people . For there was no man present , but onely the Apostles , at the Institution , as wel of the one kinde , as of the other . Therefore , that the people maie claime any one parte of the Sacramente , they haue it not of any right , but onely of youre mere , and free liberalitie . For otherwise of dewtie , by youre iudgemente , they shoulde haue nothinge .

Notwithstandinge Christe saithe , Bibite ex hoc omnes : Drinke ye ( not onely the Apostles , but ) Drinke ye al of this , Whiche woordes Paschasius expoundeth thus : Paschasius . Bibite ex hoc omnes , Hoc est , tam Ministri , quàm reliqui Credentes : Drinke ye al of this : that is to saie , as wel the Ministers , as the reste of the Faithful . Glossa . Citaturà Cassandro , de vtraque Specie . An other saithe thus , Bibite ex hoc Omnes : Omnes , scilicet , sine personarum acceptione : Drinke ye al of this : Al , that is to saie , without difference , or choise of personnes .

But hereof we haue spoken more at large in other places .

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 2. & . 3.

Very rightely , and aptely doth Chrysostome write against these menne . Heretikes , saithe he , shutte vp the gates against the Truethe : for they knowe ful wel , if the gate were open , the Churche shoulde be none of theires .

Theophylacte also : Goddes Woorde , saithe he , is the Candel , whereby the Theefe is espied .

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision , 4.

And Tertullian saith , The Holy Scripture manifestly findeth out the fraude , and theafte of Heretiques . For why doo they hide , why doo they keepe vnder the Gospel , whiche Christe woulde haue preached alowde from the house toppe ? Why whealme they that light vnder a Busshel , whiche ought to stande on the Candelsticke ?

M. Hardinge .

The Scripture saithe , There shal be menne standing in their owne conceite , vnchaste , louing pleasure more then God . 2. Tim. 3. Who are vnchaste ? they that exhorte al menne to * * This Chastitie in the more part is open filthinesse . They forebidde Marriage , and suffer Concubines , for the better meane to serue God . Math. 23. Chastitie , and them selues abstaine from wedlocke for the better meane to serue God : or ye , that bidde menne , whiche haue vowed chastitie , to breake their vowes ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

I leaue youre Chastitie to the iudgemente of the Worlde . Yet you maie remember , there were somme in olde times , whome Christe likened to Painted graues : outwardely in appearance faire , & glorious : but inwardly ful of stinking boanes . It appeareth by the whole course , and order of youre liues , that Single Life , Hierony . in Daniel . Cap. 11. and Chastitie are sundrie thinges . S. Hierome saithe thus , Super Concupiscentiam foeminarum non intelliget : De Antichristo facilior interpretatio est : quoód ideó simulet Castitatem , vt plurimos decipiat : He shal haue no skil , touching the desiere of weemen : Countrefeite Chastitie . The better exposition hereof , is to applie these woordes to Antichriste : For that he shal Countrefeite Chastitie , to the ende to deceiue many .

S. Augustine saithe of the Heretiques called the Manichees : Augustin . De Moribus Ecclesiae Cathol. li. 1. cap. 1. Ambro. De Noe & Arca , ca. 14. Vitae Castae , & memorabilis continentiae imaginem praeferunt : They beare a countenance of continent life , and notable Chastitie . S. Ambrose saithe , Multi sunt Haereticorum , qui praetendere volunt Corporis continentiam ? There be many Heretiques , that wil countrefeite , and pretende Chastitie of body ( that by the witnesse thereof they maie winne Credit to theire Doctrine . ) Therefore , M. Hardinge , when you thus vaunte your selues of this Coloure of Chastitie , ye make boaste of that thing , that other Heretiques , and Antichriste him selfe shal haue , as wel as you .

S. Paule , where he foretelleth vs of the Disciples of Antichriste , emongest other markes , whereby they maie be knowen , saithe thus : Prohibentes nubere : 1. Tim. 4. Hierony . in Hieremi . cap. 7. lib. 2. whereby he meante , that Antichriste shoulde geue out a greate shine of Chaste life , and forbidde Marriage . Of sutche S. Hierome saithe , Iactant pudicitiam suam impudenti facie : They make bragges of their Chastitie with whoorishe Countenance .

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 5. & 6.

Why truste they more to the blindenesse of the vnskilful multitude , and to ignorance , then to the goodnesse of their cause ?

Thinke they their sleightes are not already perceiued , and that they can walke nowe vnspied , as though they hadde Gyges ring to goe inuisible by , vpon their finger ? No , no.

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 7.

Al menne see nowe wel , and wel againe , what good stuffe is in that cheste of the Bishop of Romes bosome . This thing alone of it selfe maie be an argument sufficient , that they woorke not vprightly , and truely .

M. Hardinge .

You are mutche troubled with the cheste of the Popes bosome , wherein be is thought to haue al lawes . At this you scoffe foure or fiue times in your Apologie , medlinge with a matter , that you vnderstande not . For it is a Lawiers phrase . Who presupposeth the Prince of euery common weale to knowe the lawe of the same , no lesse then if it were written in his breaste . And therefore when he maketh a newe lawe , he repealeth the former lawe , whereunto the latter is contrary .

The B. of Sarisburie .

For as mutche as this matter of the Popes breaste is so deepe , and full of darkenesse , specially being as you saie , a Lawiers phrase , that no man maie safely enter into it , but onely you , that neuer were student in any Lawe , lette vs therefore see , what your owne Canonistes , and Lawiers them selues haue meante hereby .

Firste of al , Baldus . Baldus of Perusium saithe , Papa est Doctor vtriusque Iuris , Authoritate , non Scientia : The Pope is Doctour of bothe Lawes ( as wel Ciuile , as Canon ) by Authoritie , but not by knowledge . Here wee finde , howe so euer the Pope be stoared of Learninge , yet at the leaste he is a Doctoure by Authoritie .

Further youre Glose saithe , 9. quae . 3. Neque . ab Augusto . Dis. 19. Si Romanorum . In Gloss . Etsi totus mundus sententiaret in aliquo negotio contra Papam , tamen videtur , quo'd standum fit sententiae Papae . Iura enim omnia in Scrinio pectoris sui habere videtur . Quod ergo Papa approbat , vel reprobat , & nos approbate , vel reprobare debemus . Quisquis ergo non obedit Statutis Romanae Ecclesiae , Haereticus est censendus . The Cheaste of the Popes bosome . Et Sacrilegij instar esset , disputare de facto Papae : Although al the worlde woulde iudge in any mater againste the Pope , yet it seemeth , wee ought to stande to the iudgemente of the Pope . For he seemeth to haue al Lawes in the Cheaste of his bosome : Dist. 40. Si Papa , 〈◊〉 glossa . Therefore , what so euer the Pope either alloweth , or disalloweth , wee are bounde likewise to allowe , or disallowe the same . And who so euer is not obedient to the Lawes of the Churche of Rome , muste be deemed an Heretique . And it were as great sinne as Churcherobbinge , to reason of any of the Popes dooinges .

Further , Extra De transta . Episcopi . Quanto In Glossa . Felin . De Rescriptis . Ad Audientiam . 2. ver. youre Lawiers saie thus , Papa dicitur habere Coeleste arbitrium : Vnde in his , quae vult , est ei pro Ratione Voluntas . Nec est , qui dicat illi , Domine , cur ita facis ? Quia sicut ex Sola Voluntate potest per Papam Lex creari , ita per Solam Voluntatem potest cum ea dispensari : The Pope is saide to haue a heauenly iudgemente : Therefore in sutche thinges , as he willeth , his Wil standeth in steede of Reason . Neither maie any man saie vnto him , O sir , Why doo yow thus ? Like as a Lawe maie be made by the Onely Wil of the Pope : so maie the same Law bee dispensed withal onely by the wil of the Pope .

This , M. Hardinge , is the exposition of youre Lawiers phrase . Theise are the treasures , that wee are taughte to seeke in the Closet of the Popes breaste . Thus maie wee set aparte Scriptures , Doctoures , Councelles , and what so euer is biside : The Popes breaste maie serue for al.

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 8.

Worthily ought that mater seeme suspicious , whiche fleeth trial , and is afraide of the light . For he that dooth euil , as Christe saith , seketh darkenesse , and hateth the light . A conscience , that knoweth it selfe cleere , commeth willingly into open shewe , that the woorkes whiche proceede of God maie be seene . Neither bee they so very blinde , but they see this wel yenough , that theire Kingdome streightwaie is at a pointe , if the Scriptures once haue the vpper hande : and that , like as menne saie , the Idolles of Diuelles in times paste , of whome menne in doubtful maters were then woonte to receiue answeares , were suddainly striken doumbe at the sight of Christe , when he was borne , and came into the worlde : euen so they see , that nowe al their suttle practises wil soone fal downe hedlonge , euen vpon the sight of the Gospel . For Antichriste is not ouerthrowen , but with the brightnesse of Christes comming .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 1.

As for vs , wee renne not for succour to the Fire , as these mennes guise is , but wee renne to the Scriptures : neither doo wee reason with the Swerde , but with the Worde of God : and therewith , as saithe Tertullian , doo wee feede our Faithe : by it doo wee stirre vp oure hope , and strengthen our Confidence .

M. Hardinge .

Ye flie not to the Fire , as wee doo , saie ye , but vnto the Scriptures . Neither doo ye reason with vs with the sworde , but with the Woorde of God . Ah good woorde of God , thou seruest to many purposes . And is it in deede the woorde of God Sirs , that keepeth so many reuerende Fathers in prison these many yeeres ? Heretiques to death . It is the woorde of God , that hath depriued so many menne , some of their liuinges , Al this nowe is extreme Crueltie . Not long sithence it hadde benne taken for greate Mercie . some of theire countries , whose life ye can not blame ? Is it the woorde of God , that by crueltie of imprisonmente of late yeeres gaue moste certaine occasion of death to those holy , learned , and worshipful menne , who for their singular vertue beinge wel knowen , neede not here to be named ? Is it the woorde of God , that made so mutche adoo in youre late parlament for establishinge of youre bloudy lawe , whereby ye woulde haue power to put menne to death * * Vntruthe . For it is either Idolatrie , or open folie : and no part of the Faith of Christendome . for the Faithe of Christendome ? The Turkes and Saracenes haue alwaies suffered them to liue in their dominions , but our Gospellers by their woorde of God are taught to kil them . Blessed be God , who hath geuen to our noble and moste clement Queene Elizabeth a better spirite to vnderstande his woorde in this point . ‡ ‡ What Sprite then had you M. Harding and youre Felowes that burnt so many ? then these Gospellers haue yet attained vnto .

If any of you doo saie , that the newe Superintendentes doo not keepe the olde Bishoppes and leanred Clergie in prison , but the Lawe of the Realme : I answere , firste , that the Lawe is a crabbe of your owne stocke : next that neither the Bishoppes before time burnt Heretiques , but the Lawe of the Realme , the lawe of the Prince , the lawe of al Christendome . Neither was the same made by Papistes of late yeres , as ye woulde youre deceiued disciples to beleue , but of olde time thought * * This mater thus vttered in generalitie , is a greate Vntruth . necessarie by Princes to be enacted , for the better maintenance of quiet in their dominions .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It is no newe practise , ye saie , to kille Heretiques . I graunte you . Neither is it a newe practise , to condemne godly menne by the name of Heretiques . Youre Fathers sommetime cried out againste Christe the Sonne of God , Wee haue a Lawe : Iohan. 19. and by the Lawe he ought to die . And Christe him selfe saide sommetime to Hierusalem the Cittie of bloude , Luke . 13. O Hierusalem , Hierusalem , that killest the Prophetes , and stoanest them to death , that he sent vnto thee . But S. Augustine saithe , Nullis bonis in Catholica hoc placet , Augustin . Contra Crescon . Gram. li. 3. ca. 50 si vsque ad Mortem in quenquam , licet Haereticum , saeuiatur : It seemeth good vnto no good man in the Catholique Churche , that crueltie vnto death be shewed vnto any man , no though he be an Heretique .

Notwithstanding , it agreeth wel with youre Religion , M. Hardinge , though your mouthes now be mousled , yet to rampe , and gape stil after bloude . Fulfil ye the measure of youre Fathers . Let it not greeue you , to heare , what Salomon saithe , Math. 23. Prouerb . 12. Viscera impiorum crudelia : The very bowelles of the wicked are ful of crueltie . When youre Fables , and folies be espied , then ye flee to Swerde , and Fire . Whiche beeinge once wreasted from you , youre whole Religion muste needes comme to grounde . S. Hierome saithe of other youre peeres , Pugnant Epicherematis ex carnificum officinis : They fighte with Argumentes taken from the Bouchers shoppes .

Ye haue wreakte youre angre longe yenough vpon innocente bloude . Beginne once to knowe the hande of God . It is harde for you , to kike stil against the pricke . Wee maie truely saie vnto you with S. Cyprian , Sacerdos Dei Euangelium tenens , & Christi Praecepta custodiens , Cyprian ad Cornel. Occidi potest , Vinci non potest . The Prieste of God , holding the Gospel , and keeping the Commoundementes of Christe , maie wel be killed : But conquered he cannot be . Tertull. ad Scapulam . Tertul. in Apologetico . 3. Esdr. 3. Prouer. 21. Hacron . in Esai . lib. 5. cap. 14. Augustin . Confessi . li. 12. ca. 14. Wee maie saie with Tertullian , Crudelitas vestra , Gloria nostra est : Plures efficimur , quoties metimur à vobis : Youre Crueltie is oure Glorie . When ye comme to recken vs ye finde vs moe , and moe . Truethe aboue al thinges wil preuaile . There is no Counsel againste the Lorde .

As for oure parts , wee were neuer yet guilty to one droppe of youre bloude . Wee seeke no aide at Fire , or Swerde . Wee wil rather saie with S. Hierome , Vtiuam filios Haereucorum , & omnium qui decepti sunt , interficiamus Sagittis Spiritualibus , id est , Testimonijs Scripturarum . Woulde God wee maie rather kille the Children of Heretiques , and of al them , that be deceiued , with Spiritual Arrowes , that is to saie , with the Testimonies of the Scriptures : And with S. Augustine , O fi occidas eos de gladio bis acuto , If an Angel from Heauen , &c. & non sint Hostes tui : Sic enim amo eos occidi sibi , vt vitrani tibi : Woulde God thou wouldest kille them , O Lorde , with the twoo edged sworde , ( that is , with thy Holy Woorde ) That they maie no lenger be thine Enimies . For so I wisshe them to bee killed vnto them selues , that they maie liue vnto thee .

And againe , Vindicet nos Deus de vobis , vt ipsum errorem vestrum in vobis occidat , & nobiscum de Veritate gaudeatis : Augustin . Epist. 166. God so reuenge oute cause againste you , that he maie kille youre erroure in you , that ye maie reioice togeather with vs of the Truethe .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 2.

For we knowe , that the Gospel of Iesus Christe is the power of God vnto Saluation , and that therein consisteth Eternal Life . And , as Paule warneth vs , we doo not heare , no not an Angel of God , though he came from Heauen , if he goe aboute to pul vs from any parte of this Doctrine .

M. Hardinge .

Boaste no more of the Gospel . We ( I meane the catholique Churche ) had it , we keapte it , and vnderstode it , before ye were borne , and before youre heresie was hearde of .

But a Deuil comminge from hel ( for who is authour of diuision but Satan ? ) hath caried you awaie into an other Gospel : whereas in deede there is but one true Gospel . And here let any indifferent man consider , howe vprightly you alleage S. Paule . You write , that Paule warneth you not to geue eare to an Angel comming from heauen , Galat. 1. if he goe about to drawe you from any parte of this Doctrine . Of whiche this Doctrine meane you ? Of this , whiche you haue declared in this Apologie ? * * And did S. Paul euer reade your late Chapter of Trente . Did S. Paule euer reade youre A pologie ? Howe then pronounced he of it that sentence ? Wee meane ( saie you ) by this Doctrine , the Doctrine of the Gospel . If you meane so , wee saie the same . But wee tel you , that S. Paule spake not of euery Gospel generally , but of a certaine Gospel qualified . For he saieth , Si quis vobis euangelizauerit praerer id quod accepistis , anathema sit : If any man preache a Gospel vnto you besides that ye haue receiued , be he accursed . Heare you the Gospel S. Paule speaketh of ? It is not euery Gospel . It is a Gospel preached and receiued . If ye preache that Gospel , whiche ye receiued , we ioine handes with you . But if ye preach a Gospel whiche ye haue receiued of no Apostle , nor Apostoiique preacher , and whiche was not hearde of in the earth , when Luther ranne out of his Cloister , and forsooke his Religion : then be ye assured , that ye are the menne , who are holden for accursed of S. Paule .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , ye woulde faine scape awaie with a Childishe Cauil . Paul , ye saie , speaketh of a Gospel qualified : whereby ye meane a Gospel deliuered , and receiued : As if ye woulde saie , The Gospel of Christe , onlesse it be deliuered by you , is no Gospel . But S. Paule meante not the Doctrine deliuered from hande to hande , or from Pope to Pope : But the Doctrine deliuered , and receiued in the Scriptures . And in this sense he saithe of him selfe : Quod accept à Domino , Hoc & tradidi vobis . The thinge , that I haue receiued of the Lorde , the same haue I deliuered vnto you . In like sorte he calleth him selfe an Apostle , not of menne , 1. Cor. 11. Galat. 1. nor by menne , but by Iesus Christe . Howe be it , what neede many wordes ? The case is cleare . S. Augustine saithe plainely , Paulus ait , Si Angelus de Coelo vobis annuntiauerit , August . Contra literas Petilia . lib. 3. cap. 6. praeterquam quod in Scripturis legalibus , & Euangelicis accepistis , Anathema sit : If an Angel from Heauen preache vnto you any other thinge , then ye haue receiued ( not by Tradition , or by deliuerie from youre Elders , but ) in the Scriptures of the Lawe , and of the Gospel , accursed be he . These wordes be plaine , M. Hardinge , and quite disgrace al your Gloses .

Hereto Chrysostome addeth further , Non dixit Paulus , Si contraria annuntiauerint , Chrysost. In Epi. ad Galat. cap. 1. aut totum Euangelium subuerterint , Councelles . verùm , Si vel paulùm Euangelizauerint , praeter Euangelium , quod accepistis , etiamsi quiduis labefactauerint , Anathema sint . S. Paule saithe not , If they teache the contrarie , or , if they ouerthrowe the whole Gospel : But he saithe , if they preache any little smal thinge , besides the Gospel , that ye haue receiued , or , if they loose , or shake downe any thinge , whatsoeuer it bee , accursed bee they . These woordes , M. Hardinge , touche you very neare . Ye haue altered the whole fourme of the Churche of God . Therefore repente youre selues , leste ye remaine stil within the daunger of the Curse .

S. Augustine saithe , August . De bono viduitatis . ca. 1. Roma. 12. Sancta Scriptura nostae Doctrinae Regulam figit , Ne audeamus plus sapere , quàm oporteat sapere : The Holy Scripture hath laide a rule vnto oure Doctrine , that we dare not to vnderstand more , then is meete for vs to vnderstand .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 3.

For , where these menne bid the Holy Scriptures away , as doumbe , and frutelesse , & procure vs to comme to God him selfe rather , who speaketh in the Churche , & in theire Councelles , that is to saie , to beleue their fansies , and opinions : this waie of finding out the Truthe is very vncertaine , and exceeding dangerous , and in manner a fantastical & madde waie , & by no meanes allowed of the Holy Fathers .

M. Hardinge .

Where they saie , we passe but litle on the Scriptures , as dumbe and vnprofitable , therein they ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For these be youre owne Felowes woordes . Reade the Answeare . slaunder vs , as in other thinges . We do not so . But we saie , that as euery act of Parlament must be executed by a lawful Iudge , so the holy Scriptures haue their execution by lauful Iudges , who are the bishoppes and fathers , and wel in other places , as specially when they be laufully assembled in general councelles . Now saie these men , that way is very vncertaine , dangerous , in maner mad , and not allowed of the fathers . Who euer heard men thought to haue their right wittes , talke after so loose a sorte ? Did the fathers * * Gregorius Nazianzenus saith , He neuer sawe good comme of any Councel . disproue the order of comming together in general councelles ? Or thought they the same to be a way for men to be the soner deceiued ? If so many maie be deceiued with moste diligent studie and mature iudgement conferring together , howe mutche soner may one or two alone leadde by priuate phansie and self wil , be caried away into errour ? At the Nicene councel came together . 318 bishops : At the first of Constantinople . 150. at the Ephesme councel . 200. At that of Chalcedon 630 Al these foure councelles sundry ancient fathers , namely S. Gregorie , estemed as the foure Gospels . Yea but saith he , I haue the word of God . But what if 300. farre holier , and better learned men saie , he hath it not ? Let the reader be iudge , saith he . A meete iudge , in suche a cause . The Scholers maie reade , but iudge of their maisters they maie not by Christes doctrine , Math. 10. who said , Non est discipulus supra magistrum , the scholer is not aboue his maister . Why not , for al that , saie you , if the Holy Ghost inspire him ? Sir , is it not to be thought , God doth assist his Churche represented in sutche solemne assemblies of three hundred or moe fathers gouernours of Christen people , rather then one man ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Whether ye cal the Scriptures of God a Dumbe thing , Cap. 19. Diui. 1. Ludouicus in Con. Triden . Episcop. Pictauien . in Con. Triden . Albert. Pigghi . Controuer. 3. Eckius . or no , I reporte me to that , is saide before . One of you calleth it Mortuum Atramentum , Dead Inke : An other saith , Scriptura est res inanimis , & muta : The Scripture is a dead and a dumbe thinge : An other calleth the Scriptures , Nigrum Euangelium , The blacke Gospel . Nowe if the Scriptures be Dead , and Doumbe , and can not speake , then must it needes folowe , they are vnprofitable . Neither doo we despise the Authoritie of Councelles . Good Councelles be graue , and reuerende . But thus we saie , Councelles are often against Councelles : And , if wee make rekening of number , the Arian Heretiques haue had moe Councelles , then the Christians . S. Hierome saithe , The people cannot Iudge . Spiritus Sancti Doctrina est , quae Canonicis literis prodita est : Contra quam si quid statuant Concilia , nefas duco : That is the Doctrine of the Holy Goste , that is set abroade in the Canonical Scriptures : Hierom. in epist. ad Galath . Chrysost. In. 2 ad Timoth. Hom. 2. Againste whiche Doctrine if Councelles determine any thing , I thinke it wicked .

S. Chrysostome saithe further in more earneste sorte : Plus aliquid dicam : Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet , si quid dixerit proprium , si quid humanum : I wil saie more : Wee ought not to beleeue , no not Paule him selfe , if he speake any thinge of his owne , or if he speake onely as a man .

And to encrease the vncertaintie hereof , the whole weighte , and iudgemente of Councelles hangeth nowe euermore vpon the Pope : as it maie appeare by these woordes of the Conclusion of the late Chapter at Trident : Saluasemper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate : Concil. Triden . Session . 6. Platyna in Stephano . The Authoritie of the Apostolique See in al thinges euermore reserued . But Platyna saithe , as it is alleged before , Acta priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices semper aut infringunt , aut omnino ' tollunt : The Popes , that folowe , doo euermore either breake , or wholy abrogate the Decrees of the Popes , that were before .

Whether the Scripture bee wel alleged , or otherwise , thereof , ye saie , the people maie not Iudge . For Christe saithe , The Scholar is not aboue his Maister . Certainely , M. Hardinge , the simplest of al the people , notwithstandinge , by youre restrainte , he maie not iudge of the Scriptures , yet he maie easily iudge of you , either that ye vnderstande not , or that ye vnaduisedly abuse the Scriptures . Whether it be the Woorde of God , or no , the people , ye saie , maie not Judge : And that ye proue euen by the Scriptures , God knoweth , ful handsomely , and ful discretely applied : For the Scholar ( ye saie ) is not aboue his Maister . Thus we maie learne by the Logique of Louaine , that Populus is Latine for a Scholar : & that Scripture is Latine for a Maister . And thus by youre vaine premisses without sense ye proceede vainely , and conclude nothinge .

O , M. Hardinge , haue some regarde to that ye write . The simpleste maie soone espie your dooinges . Ye can no longer thus mocke the worlde with shewes of woordes . Christe spake not these woordes of the vnderstandinge of the Scriptures : but of persequution for the Scriptures . For thus the woordes lie togeather : When they shal persecute you in one Cittie , flee into an other , &c. The Scholar is not aboue his Maister : Nor the Seruant aboue his Lorde . If they haue called the Maister of the house Beelzebub , Matthae . 10. howe mutche more wil they so cal his housholde seruauntes ?

Alas , where learned you to frame sutche Argumentes , The Apostles , beeing the Scholars , can nomore escape persecution , then could Christe , that was the Maister : Ergo , The people cannot vnderstande , what they reade in the Scriptures ? Here is neither Antecedente , nor Consequente , nor Sequele in Reason . For the honour of the Vniuersitie , haue better regarde vnto your Logique .

Ye bewraie the weakenesse of youre cause , when yee so sclenderly abuse the Scriptures .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 4.

Chrysostome saithe , There be many oftentimes , whiche boaste them selues of the Holy Ghoste : but truely , who so speake of their own head , do falsely boast that thei haue the sprite of God . For like as , saith he , Christe denied , he spake of him selfe , when he spake out of the Lawe , and Prophetes , euen so nowe , if any tiauerint , Councelles . aut totum Euangelium subuerterint , verùm , Si vel paulùm Euangelizauerint , praeter Euangelium , quod accepistis , etiamsi quiduis labefactauerint , Anathema sint . S. Paule saithe not , If they teache the contrarie , or , if they ouerthrowe the whole Gospel : But he saithe , if they preache any little smal thinge , besides the Gospel , that ye haue receiued , or , if they loose , or shake downe any thinge , whatsoeuer it bee , accursed bee they . These woordes , M. Hardinge , touche you very neare . Ye haue altered the whole fourme of the Churche of God . Therefore repente youre selues , leste ye remaine stil within the aunger of the Curse .

S. August . De bono viduit atis . ca. 1. Roma. 12. Augustine saithe , Sancta Scriptura nostae Doctrinae Regulam figit , Ne audeamus plus sapere , quàm opor●eat sapere : The Holy Scripture hath laide a rule vnto oure Doctrine , that we dare not to vnderstand more , then is meete for vs to vnderstand .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 3.

For , where these menne bid the Holy Scriptures away , as doumbeand frutelesse , & procure vs to comme to God him selfe rather , who speaketh in the Churche , & in theire Councelles , that is to saie , to beleue their fansies , and opinions : this waie of finding out the Truthe is very vncertaine , and exceeding dangerous , and in manner a fantastical & madde waie , & by no meanes allowed of the Holy Fathers .

M. Hardinge .

Where they saie , we passe but litle on the Scriptures , as dumbe and vnprofitable , therein they ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For these be youre owne Felowes woordes . Reade the Answeare . slaunder vs , as in other thinges . We do not so . But we saie , that as euery act of Parlament must be executed by a lawful Iudge , so the holy Scriptures haue their execution by lauful Iudges , who are the bishoppes and fathers , as wel in other places , as specially when they be laufully assembled in general councelles . Now saie these men , that way is very vncertaine , dangerous , in maner mad , and not allowed of the fathers . Who euer heard men thought to haue their right wittes , talke after so loose a sorte ? Did the fathers * * Gregorius Nazianzenus saith , He neuer sawe good comme of any Councel . disproue the order of comming together in general councelles ? Or thought they the same to be a way for men to be the soner deceiued ? If so many maie be deceiued with moste diligent studie and mature iudgement conferring together , howe mutche soner may one or two alone ●eadde by priuate phansie and self wil , be caried away into errour ? At the Nicene councel came together . 318 bishops : At the first of Constantinople . 150. at the Ephesine councel . 200. At that of Chalcedon 630 Al these foure councelles sundry ancient fathers , namely S. Gregorie , estemed as the foure Gospels . Yea but saith he , I haue the word of God . But what if 300. farre holier , and better learned men saie , he hath it not ? Let the reader be iudge . saith be . A meete iudge , in suche a cause . The Scholers maie reade , but iudge of their maisters they maie not by Christes doctrine , Math. 10. who said , Non est discipulus supra magistrum , the scholer is not aboue his maister . Why not , for al that , saie you , if the Holy Ghost inspire him ? Sir , is it not to be thought , God doth assist his Churche represented in sutche solemne assemblies of three hundred or moe fathers gouernours of Christen people , rather then one man ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Whether ye cal the Scriptures of God a Dumbe thing , Cap. 19. Diui. 1. Ludouicus in Con. Triden . Episcop. Pictauien . in Con. Triden . Albert. Pigghi . Controuer. 3. Eckius . or no , I reporte me to that , is saide before . One of you calleth it Mortuum Atramentum , Dead Inke : An other saith , Scriptura est res inanimis , & muta : The Scripture is a dead and a dumbe thinge : An other calleth the Scriptures , Nigrum Euangelium , The blacke Gospel . Nowe if the Scriptures be Dead , and Doumbe , and can not speake , then must it needes folowe , they are vnprofitable . Neither doo we despise the Authoritie of Councelles . Good Councelles be graue , and reuerende . But thus we saie , Councelles are often against Councelles : And , if wee make rekening of number , the Arian Heretiques haue had moe Councelles , then the Christians . S. Hierome saithe , The people cannot Iudge . Spiritus Sancti Doctrina est , quae Canonicis literis prodita est : Contra quam si quid statuant Concilia , nefas duco : That is the Doctrine of the Holy Goste , that is set abroade in the Canonical Scriptures : Hierom. in epist. ad Galath . Againste whiche Doctrine if Councelles determine any thing , I thinke it wicked .

S. Chrysost. In. 2. ad Timoth. Hom. 2. Chrysostome saithe further in more earneste sorte : Plus aliquid dicam : Ne Paulo quidem obedire oportet , si quid dixerit proprium , si quid humanum : I wil saie more : Wee ought not to beleeue , no not Paule him selfe , if he speake any thinge of his owne , or if he speake onely as a man .

And to encrease the vncertaintie hereof , the whole weighte , and iudgemente of Councelles hangeth nowe euermore vpon the Pope : as it maie appeare by these woordes of the Conclusion of the late Chapter at Trident : Concil. Triden . Session . 6. Platyna in Stephano . Salua semper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate : The Authoritie of the Apostolique See in al thinges euermore reserued . But Platyna saithe , as it is alleged before , Acta priorum Pontificum sequentes Pontifices semper aut infringunt , aut omninò tollunt : The Popes , that folowe , doo euermore either breake , or wholy abrogate the Decrees of the Popes , that were before .

Whether the Scripture bee wel alleged , or otherwise , thereof , ye saie , the people maie not Iudge . For Christe saithe , The Scholar is not aboue his Maister . Certainely , M. Hardinge , the simplest of al the people , notwithstandinge , by youre restrainte , he maie not iudge of the Scriptures , yet he maie easily iudge of you , either that ye vnderstande not , or that ye vnaduifedly abuse the Scriptures . Whether it be the Woorde of God , or no , the people , ye saie , maie not Iudge : And that ye proue euen by the Scriptures , God knoweth , ful handsomely , and ful discretely applied : For the Scholar ( ye saie ) is not aboue his Maister . Thus we maie learne by the Logique of Louaine , that Populus is Latine for a Scholar : & that Scripture is Latine for a Maister . And thus by youre vaine premisses without sense ye proceede vainely , and conclude nothinge .

O , M. Hardinge , haue some regarde to that ye write . The simpleste maie soone espie your dooinges . Ye can no longer thus mocke the worlde with shewes of woordes . Christe spake not these woordes of the vnderstandinge of the Scriptures : but of persequution for the Scriptures . For thus the woordes lie togeather : When they shal persecute you in one Cittie , flee into an other , &c. The Scholar is not aboue his Maister : Nor the Seruant aboue his Lorde . If they haue called the Maister of the house Beelzebub , howe mutche more wil they so cal his housholde seruountes ? Matthae . 10.

Alas , where learned you to frame sutche Argumentes , The Apostles , beeing the Scholars , can nomore escape persecution , then could Christe , that was the Maister : Ergo , The people cannot vnderstande , what they reade in the Scriptures ? Here is neither Antecedente , nor Consequente , nor Sequele in Reason . For the honour of the Uniuersitie , haue better regarde vnto your Logique .

Ye bewraie the weakenesse of youre cause , when yee so sclenderly abuse the Scriptures .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 4.

Chrysostome saithe , There be many oftentimes , whiche boaste them selues of the Holy Ghoste : but truely , who so speake of their own head , do falsely boast that thei haue the sprite of God . For like as , saith he , Christe denied , he spake of him selfe , when he spake out of the Lawe , and Prophetes , euen so nowe , if any thinge be pressed vpon vs in the name of the Holy Ghost , saue the Gospel , we ought not to beleue it . For as Christe is the fulfillinge of the Lawe and Prophetes , so is the Holy Ghost the fulfillinge of the Gospel . Thus farre goeth Chrysostome .

M. Hardinge .

They alleage out of Chrysostome , that who so euer speake of their owne , doo vntruely attribute to them selues the Spirite of God . But they remember not , howe they , who are gathered together in the name of Christe , Math. 18. doo not speake of their owne , because Christe , who is the truthe , hath promised to be in the middest of them . Nowe if they tel vs , that the Fathers at Trent were not gathered together in the name of Christe , howe mutche more truly maie wee reply to them , that the temporal menne assembled together at Auspurg , at Marpurg , at Wormes , at Smalcald , at Baden , at Westminster , or any where els , came not together in the name of Christe ? I require but a man of common sense to sitte Iudge in this cause . They can not possibly bringe any thinge out of the Scriptures , or auncient Fathers , for maintenance of this their great case .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Ye builde ouer boldely , M. Hardinge , on Christes promises . God is true , what so euer he promise : But oftentimes menne are false . Christe hath promised to be present , Psal. 2. Actor 4. Michaeas . 3. where so euer twoo , or three be geathered togeather in his name : But it appeareth by the woordes of the Prophete Dauid , that Councelles oftentimes meete togeather againste God , and againste his Christe . The Prophete Michaeas saithe , Sic dicit Dominus de Prophetis , qui errare faciunt populum meum : Abominantur iudicium , & omne rectum peruertunt : Super Dominum requiescebant , dicentes : Nunquid non est Dominus in medio nostri ? Thus saithe our Lorde of the Prophetes , that deceiue my people : They abborre Iudgement : they ouerthrowe al that is right . And yet they reaste them sēlues vpon oure Lorde , saienge , Is not oure Lorde in the middest emongest vs ?

This is youre defence , M. Hardinge . Whether the Worde of God be with you , or againste you , yet ye saie , ye haue stil the Sprite of God : and oure Lorde him selfe is in the middest emongest you . Chrysostom . De Sancto & Adorando Spiritu . August . in Iohan . tractae 46. But this boldnesse , by Chrysostomes Iudgement , is presumptuous , and daungerous . And therefore his counsel is , that if any thing be pressed vpon vs by the name of the Holy Ghoste , sauinge onely the Gospel of Christe , wee shoulde not beleeue it . In like sense S. Augustine saithe , Sua illi si docere veliut , nolite audire : nolite facere : If they bringe any Decree or Fantasie of theire owne , heare it not : Doo it not .

Thus the Olde Frenetique , and Fanatical Heretiques , when they founde them selues conuinced by the euident testimonies of Goddes Woorde , they appealed to the Spirite of God : whiche , they saide , euen as you saie , euermore assisted them , August . Contra ●austum Manichae li. 3● . ca. 18. and coulde not faile them . Hereof S. Augustine writeth thus : Videris ergo , id vos agere , vt omnis de medio Scripturarum authoritas auferatur : & suus cuique animus author sit , quid in quaque Scriptura probet , quid improbet : id est , vt non Authorirati Scripturarum subijciatur ad Fidem , sed sibi Scripturas ipse subijciat : Non vt ideò illi placeat aliquid , quia hoc in sublimi Authoritate scriptum legitur : sed ideo rectè scriptum videatur , quia hoc illi placuit : Ye see therefore , this is youre drifte , that al Authoritie of the Scriptures be remoued : that eche man maie be leadde by his owne fantasie , what he liste , either to allowe in the Holy Scriptures , or to disallowe : that is to saie , that he submitte not him selfe , touchinge his Faithe , to the Authoritie of the Scriptures : but that he make the Scriptures subiecte vnto him : Not that he wil allowe any thing , bicause it is written in that high Authoritie of the Scriptures : but that he wil thinke it wel written , bicause he alloweth it . By meane hereof it commeth to passe , that S. Hilarie writeth , Qui , quae scripta sunt , negas , quid superest , nisi vt , Hilari . De Trinitate , li. 9. quae non scripta sunt , probes ? For as muche as thou deniest the thinges that be written , what remaineth there , but that thou muste allowe the thinges , that be not written ?

Concerninge the Authoritie , and Credite of Councelles , wee shal haue cause to saie more hereafter . But where ye require , but a man of common sense , to sitte as Iudge in this cause , it appeareth , that either ye remember not , or els ye weighe not , that ye immediately said before . For in this selfe same Chapter ye saie , The people maie not iudge of theire Bishoppes : and that , as ye tel vs , by Christes own Doctrine : For the Scholar is not aboue his Maister . Yet now suddainely , as hauinge foregotten youre owne woordes , ye cal foorthe the Scholare , yea , and as it maie be thought , one of the meanest of al youre Schole , as a man onely endewed with common sense , to sitte in Iudgement ouer his Maister .

Notwithstandinge , Actor . 10. Iohan. 3. Extra . De Electi . & Electi potastat . Significasti . Abb. God is no accepter of personnes . Goddes Holy Sprite is not bounde to Councelles , or Companies : but breatheth freely , where it listeth . And therefore , as youre owne Doctour Panormitane saithe , in Cases of Religion the Iudgement of one Simple plaine man ought sommetimes to bee receiued before the Iudgemente of the Pope .

Here endeth the Fourth Parte .
The Fifthe Parte .
The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision , 1.

BVt here , Olde . Newe . I looke , they wil saie , though they haue not the Scriptures , yet it maie chaunce , they haue the Auncient Doctours , and the Holy Fathers with them . For this is a high bragge they haue euer made , howe that al Antiquitie , & a Continual Consent of al ages dooth make on their side : and that al our cases be but Newe , and yester daies woorke , and vntil these fewe late yeeres were neuer hearde of . Questionlesse , there can nothing be more spitefully spoken against the Religion of God , then to accuse it of Noueltie , as a mater lately founde out . For as there can be no chaunge in God him selfe , so ought there to be no chaunge in his Religion .

Yet neuerthelesse , we wote not by what meanes , but we haue euer seene it come so to passe , from the firste beginninge , that as often as God did geeue but somme light , & did open his Truthe vnto menne , though the Truthe were not onely of greatest Antiquitie , but also from Euerlasting , yet of wicked menne , & of the Aduersaries it was called Newfangled , and of late diuised . That vngraceous , and bloudthirsty Haman , when he sought to procure the kinge Assuerus displeasure against the Iewes , Esther . 3. this was his accusation to him : Thou hast here ( saithe he ) a kinde of people , that vseth certaine newe Lawes of their owne , but stifnecked , and rebellious againste al thy Lawes . When Paule also began firste to preache , Actor . 17. and expounde the Gospel at Athenes , he was called a tidinges bringer of Newe Goddes : as mutche to saie , as of a Newe Religion . For ( saide the Athenians ) maie wee not knowe of thee , what Newe Doctrine this is ? Celsus likewise , when he of set pourpose wrote againste Christe , to the ende he might more scornefully scoffe out the Gospel by the name of Noueltie , What , Origen . Contra Celsum . saithe he , hath God after so many ages nowe at laste , and so late bethought him selfe ? Eusebius also writeth , that the Christian Religion from the beginning , for very spite , was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is to saie , Newe , and Strange . After like sorte , these menne condemne al our maters , as Strange , and Newe : but they wil haue their owne , whatsoeuer they are , to be praised , as thinges of longe continuance .

M. Hardinge .

They had saide somme what , if they had proued , that the doctrine * * A vaine distinction . For neither doo wee cal our Doctrine Newe . of Christe had benne called nowe by them , who were the professours , and folowers of it . But nowe reportinge that the Gentils , who knewe not God , as A man , as the Athenians , as Celsus the Ethnike , and suche the like , called the right and true Religion of God , newe : they saie nothing to any purpose . But let them shewe , that before the comminge of Christe , any suche Religion was allowed , that was newe : Or that sithens Christes incarnation , amonge Christian menne what so euer Religion was not shunned and reiected as heretical , whiche was newe . Here are they domme . And yet for shewe of learning in a matter not necessarie , they bringe foorth their store , and declare that the doctrine and Religion of truthe was newe to them , whiche knewe not God nor Christe the sonne of God , whiche no man denieth .

Thus al menne of any iudgement maie see , how fondly they reason . We * * Wee tel you , ye haue lost the right names of thinges : and cal that Newe , that in deede is Olde . tel them that al newe doctrine nowe in the Churche of Christe is naught : and they proue , that infidels haue in the time of Moses lawe , and at the first preachinge of the Gospel , impugned Goddes euerlastinge truthe with the odious terme and reproche of newnes . Newe doctrine was good to vs at our firste conuersion from infidelitie . But since that we receiued the true faithe from S. Gregorie the Bishop of Rome , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the True Faithe of Christe had benne planted , and stil continued in this Realme foure hundred yeeres ; before the comming of this Augustine . who conuerted the Realme of Englande to the faithe by S Augustine his legate , and others sent for that godly purpose : worthely we shunne and abhorre al new Gospels , new faithes , new doctrines , new religions .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Truthe of God neither is furthered by the face of Antiquitie : nor hindered by the opinion of Noueltie . For oftentimes the thinge , that in deede is Newe , is commended as Olde : and the thinge , that in dede is Olde , is condemned as Newe . If Newnesse in Religion in al respectes , and euery waie were il , Christe would not haue resembled his Doctrine to Newe Wine : Math. 9. Ioh. 13. Luke . 22. Arnobius contra Gentes , li. 2. nor woulde he haue saide to his Disciples , I geue you a Newe Commaundemente : Neither woulde he haue called the Cuppe of Thankesgeuinge , The Newe Testamente , in his Bloude . Arnobius saithe , Religionis Authoritas non est tempore aestimanda , sed numine : nec quo die , sed quid colere coeperis , intueri conuenit . Quod Verum est , Serum non est : The Authoritie of Religion muste be weighed by God , and not by time : It behoueth vs to consider , not vpon what daie , but what thinge wee beganne to worship . The thinge that is true , is neuer too late .

S. Augu. in quaest. Noui & Veteris Testamenti , quaest. 114. Augustin . De Ciuita . li. 10. ca. 32. Augustine saithe , Quod Anterius est , inquiunt Ethnici , falsum esse non potest . Quasi Antiquitas , & Vetus Consuetudo praeiudicet Veritati : The Heathens saie , The Religion , that was firste , can not be false : As though Antiquitie , and Olde Custome coulde preuaile againste the Truethe . Againe he saithe , Nec dici debet , quare Modo ' ? & quare Serò ? Quoniam mittentis Consilium non est humano ingenio penetrabile : Neither maie we saie , Why commeth it nowe ? Why commeth it so late ? For the Counsel of God that sente it , is vnsearcheable to the wisedome of man . Ye saie , They were Infidelles onely , that charged the Religion of Christe with Noueltie . And further ye saie , Wee tel them , that al Newe Doctrine nowe in the Churche of Christe is naught . Hereto , M. Hardinge , we soone agree . And therefore wel tel you , that youre Newe Fantasies , whiche ye haue painted with the Coloure of Auncientie , and therewith haue deceiued the worlde , are vaine , and naught . As for vs , wee haue planted no Newe Religion , but onely haue renewed the Olde , that was vndoubtedly founded , and vsed by the Apostles of Christe , & other Holy Fathers in the Primitiue Churche : and of this longe late time , by meane of the multitude of your Traditions , and Vanities , hath benne drowned .

Therefore wee maie saie with S. Bernardus De vita Solitaria . Bernarde , Nouitatem dico , propter linguas hominum impiorum : qui , cùm manifestum Lumen obnubilare non queunt , de Solo Nouitatis nomine cauillantur , &c. Sed haec Nouitas non est Nouella vanitas . Res enim est Antiquae Religionis : Perfectè fundatae in christo Pietatis : Antiqua Haereditas Ecclesiae Dei : I cal it Noueltie , bicause of the tongues of wicked menne : who being not hable to shadowe the manifest light of the Truth , finde cauillations vpon the Onely name of Noueltie . But this Noueltie is no Newe Vanitie ( as is this late vpstarte Religion of Rome ) . For it is a mater of Olde Religion : of perfite Godlinesse founded in Christe : The Auncient Enheritance of the Churche of God . Tertullian . De Virginibus velandi The Olde Learned Father Tertullian saithe , Viderint ergo , quibus Nouum est , quòd sibi est Vetus : Haereses non tam Nouitas , quam Veritas reuincit . Augustine of Englande . Quodcunque contra Veritatem sapit , hoc est Haeresis , etiam vetus Consuetudo : Let them therfore take heede , whiche coumpte that thinge Newe , that in it selfe is Olde . Herefie is reproued , not so wel by Noueltie , as by Veritie . What so euer thinge sauereth againste the Truthe , the same is an Heresie : Yea , although it be a Custome neuer so olde . Ignatius ad Philadelphien . Ignatius saithe , Antiquitas mea Iesus Christus est : My Antiquitie is Christe Iesus . For otherwise the Religion of Christe at that time was coumpted Newe , and in respecte of the Ancient Religion of the Heathens , Vniuersally , and of al menne was condemned .

That Augustine , the Monker of Rome , broughte firste the Faithe into this Lande , it is vtterly Vntrue . For , as I haue saide before , it appeareth plainely by sundrie the Ancient Fathers , origen , Tertullian , chrysostome , Hilarie , Theodoretus , Eusebius , and others , that the Faithe of Christe had benne vniuersally receiued , and perfitely rooted in this Realme many hundred yeeres , before this Augustine the Monke was borne . Indeede he broughte in greate heapes of strange Nouelties , and superstitions , as Candels , Candelstickes , Banners , and Holy Water , and other like shewes : Whereof the Churche of God had no great neede . And yet haue the same sithence benne encreased by other Newe Diuises , and Vanities , aboue measure .

But , for as mutche as certaine of M. Hardinges Beaupecres of Louaine haue lately founde them selues talke , and keapte greate Mootes in the behoufe of theire Augustine , the Italian Monke , whom they cal the Apostle of Englande , and wil needes haue to be receiued and honoured , as a Saincte , I haue thought it therefore good , briefely , and by the waie , to note a fewe wordes touching the same .

It seemeth , they be mutche offended , that so vertuous a Man , and so Holy a Saincte shoulde be charged with Pride , and Crueltie . With Pride , in so disdeignefully despisinge his Brethren , the Bishoppes of this Ilelande of Britaine : With Crueltie , in procuringe the Deathe bothe of many thousandes of Christian people , and also specially of the Innocente , and Vnarmed Monkes of Bangor : and al this , for that they refused to receiue him as theire Metropolitane , and to agree with him in certaine smal pointes of the Romaine Religion . Howe be it , his Pride is wel blased by Beda , writinge pourposely of the same , in that he sate stil in his Throne , Beda : Septem Britannor . Epis. & plures Viri Doctissimi . and disdeigned to rise vp , and to geue any token of Reuerence vnto the Seuen Bishoppes , and other Learned , & graue menne of the Britannes , makinge theire appearance at his Councel . And therefore they saide , they woulde not hearken to his demaundes , nor take him for theire Archebishop , as hauinge otherwise of olde an Archebishop of theire owne , to whome they ought theire obedience . Theire woordes , as they are reported by Beda , were theise : Si modo ' nobis assurgere noluit , Beda . lib. 2. ca. 2. quanto ' magis , si ei subdi coeperimus , iam nos pro nihilo conteinner ? If euen nowe be disdeigne to rise vp vnto vs , howe mutche more wil hee despise vs , and regarde vs as nothinge , when wee shal once be vnder his Iurisdiction ?

But , to excuse this Augustine of shameful Crueltie , leste he shoulde seeme to be accessorie to the Murthering of so many , and so by theire owne Lawes to be Irregulare , as a man of bloude , they saie , He neither enkendled the Warre againste the Britaines , nor was presente at the fight : but was deade longe before . Whiche thinge also they thinke , maie be proued by the expresse woordes of Beda . For thus he saithe . Beda eodem loco Quamuis ipso Augustino iam multo antè tempore ad Coelestia Regna sublato : Notwithstandinge Augustine him selfe , longe before the time of this Warre , were taken vp into the kingdome of Heauen . For the truthe , and certaintie hereof , it maie please thee , good Christian Reader , to vnderstande , that theise laste woordes of Beda , concerninge the Deathe of Augustine , are manifestely forged , and haue benne violently thruste into the texte , by a guileful Parenthesis , by them , that sithence haue benne ashamed of his Crueltie , Augustine of England . and were neuer written by the Authoure , as by euidente proufes it shal plainely appeare .

But first of al , in an Olde chronicle , written in Frenche aboue twoo hundred yéeres paste , Thomas Graie . Augustine the inflamer of the Warre . by Thomas Graie , yée shal finde it recorded thus : Augustine , beinge thus refused of the Bishoppes , and others the Learned of the Britaines , made sutche complainte thereof to Ethelberte the kinge of kente , that foorth with he leuied his Power , and Marched againste them , and slewe them in moste Cruel wise , hauinge ( as he saithe ) no more regarde of mercie , then a Woulfe hath vpon a Sheepe . Hereby it appeareth , that this Augustine was the inflamer of the Warre , and so the causer of the slaughter .

And whereas , by the woordes of Beda , as they be now commonly extant in the Latine , wée are told , this Augustine was deade , long before the Warre beganne , it appeareth plainely by the true Beda in déede , The true storie of Beda , Translated by Kinge Alfrede . Augustine aliue in the time of the Warre . translated aboue seuen hundred yéeres agoe into the old English , or Saxon tongue , by Alfredus , or Aluredus then Kinge of this lande , that the same Augustine was yet aliue , after the same Warre was ended , & that he afterwarde Consecrated twoo Bishoppes , Mellitus , & Iustus : Mellitus , to be Bishop of London : and Iustus , to be Bishop of Rochester . Which thinges thus declared , it foloweth orderly in the storie , Then ( these Warres being ended , & these Bishoppes Consecrated ) afterwarde died the beloued Father Augustine . After the Warre he died , he saithe : and not Before , as they haue sithence altered it in the Latine . I trwo , M. Harding , yée are not so mutch amazed with the admiration of your Augustine , that yée wil saie , he had power to Consecrate Bishoppes , and to vse his Archiepiscopal Authoritie , beinge deade .

As for these woordes , that wée find reported by the Parenthesis , in the Latine , as written by Beda , ( Quamuis Augustino iam mùlto anté tempore ad coelestia Regna sublato ) For as mutche as they are quite contrarie to the very course , and order of the storie , and specially for that they are not once touched in the Aunciente Saxon Translation , sundrie Copies whereof at this presente are extante , and to be séene , of sutche Reuerende Antiquitie , as maie not iustely be called in question , therefore wée haue good cause to iudge , that the saide woordes haue benne sithence forced , and shifted in , by somme good skille , and policie , leste Augustine , so holy a man , should be founde guiltie of so greate a Crueltie . An. Dom.

596 August . commeth into Englande . 597 598 599 600 601 August , receiueth his Palle . 602 603 604 August . consecrateth Mellitus , and Iustus . 605 Gregorie dieth . The warre against the Britaines : The Saxon Chronicle of Peterburrough . 606 607 608 August . dieth : Flores Historiar .

Verily , The Abstracte of Chronicles written . in the Olde Englishe Chronicle it is recorded , not onely that this Augustine , the Italian Monke , by his complainte caused the King of Kente to arme his people against the true , and Faithful Christians of this Countrie , then beinge in Wales : or , that he was aliue at the time of the battaile , but also , that he was him self presente in personne goeinge towarde the same . The woordes be these : Augustine came againe , and tolde kinge Ethelberte , that the Britaines woulde not obeie him . Wherefore the Kinge was wrothe , and sente to Elfrede the king of Northumberland to comme to healpe him , to distresse the Britaines of Wales . And ( Augustine ) the Archebishop of Canturburie mette with them at Leicester . Augustine aliue , and in companie with the kinges marchinge towardes the filde . The King of Leicester at that time was called Brocuale . He beinge afraide of the twoo Kinges , fledde out of the Lande , and came neuer againe . And the twoo kinges seised al his landes , and departed them bitweene them selues . And afterward thei went to wardes Wales . The Britaines heard of them , and sente menne to them in their shirtes , and harefoote , to aske mercie . But they were so cruel , that they had of them no pitie , &c. Hereby it appeareth . that this Augustine , not onely enkendled this cruel Warre , but also was aliue , and present in the Armie .

Therefore , M. Hardinge , it shal hencefoorth be good , bothe for you , and for your Felowes , not to aduenture so rasshely in iudgemente , before yée knowe .

Thus mutche briefely , as anweare vnto them , that so faine woulde haue their Augustine acquited of Pride , and Crueltie .

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 2.

Wherein thei doo mutche like to the Coniurers , & Sorcerers now a daies , whiche woorkinge with Diuels , vse to saie , they haue theire Bookes , and al theire Holy , and hid Mysteries from Athanasius , Cyprian , Moses , Abel , Adam , and from the Archangel Raphael : to the ende , that their conninge being thought to comme from sutche Patrones and Founders , might be iudged the more high and Holy . After the same manner these menne , bicause they woulde haue theire owne Religion , whiche they themselues , and that not longe sithence , haue brought foorth into the world , to be the more easily , and rather accepted of foolishe personnes , or of sutche , as cast little , whereabout they or others doo goe , they are woonte to saie , they had it from Augustine , Hierome , Chrysostome , from the Apostles , and from Christe him selfe . Ful wel knowe they , that nothinge is more in the peoples fauoure , or better liketh the common sorte , then these names .

M. Hardinge .

Nay Sirs , your selues maie with more reason be likened to Enchaunters , Necromancers , and Witches . For as they saie , that they haue their Bookes , and their mysteries from those Doctours , and firste Fathers , and from Raphael the Archangel , but cannot shewe the deliuery thereof by any succession from hand to hande , as for example , who receiued the same from Raphael , from Adam , from Abel , &c. and who kept them from time to time : so ye saie also , that ye haue your Gospel , and euery part of your Doctrine from the Apostles , from Christe , from the Prophetes , from the Patriarkes , from heauen , from Gods owne bosome , Iacob . 1● who is Father of lightes . But ye cannot shewes vs your lauful succession , by whom , and by whose preachinge , as by handes , it came downe alonge from Christe and his Apostles vnto you . ‡ ‡ It laie in the Scriptures , and in the Bookes of the Holy Fathers . Where laie your sacramentary Doctrine hidden bitwene the time of your Prophete Zuinglius , and your Patriarke Berengarius ? Howe , and by what deliuery from hande to hand continewed the same those fiue hundred yeeres ? She we vs your succession . Where be your Bishops , where be your Churches ?

The Doctrine , whiche the Catholikes of our Countrie holde , and professe , * * Vntruthes impudente . Reade the Answeare . as wel touchinge the blessed sacramente , as al other pointes of our faithe , they haue receiued it of theire Bishops , and they of their Predecessours , by order vntil they reache to S. Augustine : S. Augustine receiued it of S. Gregorie : * he of others before him : * and they al one of an other by continual aescente vnto S. Peter : who receiued it of Christe : Christ of God his Father . * And this Doctrine we finde taught and plainely set forth in the bookes that ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For al this is but a shewe of emptie names , and nothinge in them . S. Augustine , Hierome , Chrysostome , Ambrose , Basile , Cyprian , Dionyse , and the other holy Fathers haue leafte to the Posteritie . And so they be witnesses of the truth of the Doctrine which our Bishops haue taught vs .

Preache ye , and crie ye out neuer so mutche , make so many Lawes in your Parlamentes , as ye liste , imbrue your swordes in the Bloude of the Catholike Christians , as ye crie for it in your pulpites , yet shal that rocke , whereon we staie , be too harde for you . Neither shal ye euer be able to ouerthrowe the Catholike Churche builded thereupon . For certaine we are , that neither al your power , nor Hel gates shal preuaile againste it . Matth. 16.

The B. of Sarisburie .

Marcus Varro was woonte to saie , Vtile est Ciuitatibus , vt se viri fortes , etiamsi falsum fit , Pretense of Antiquitie . Dijs genitos esse credant : It is very behoueful for Cities , and Common Weales , that menne of Valiante courage beleue them selues to be the Children of the Goddes , yea although in deede it be vntrue . Augusti . De Ciuitate , Li. 3. ca. ● . Vnto whiche woordes S. Augustine addeth these : Haec Sententia , cernis , quàm latum locum aperiat falsitati Ye see , howe large a scope this saieing dooth open to the Mainteinance of Falsehedde . Many vaine menne , to auance the Nobilitie of theire bloud , haue fette their petite degrées , somme from Achilles , somme from Aeneas , somme from Hercules , and somme from the Arke of Noe. The Heretique Dioscorus , to geate somme credite to his Doctrine , woulde séeme to bringe the descente thereof from al the Ancient Fathers of the Churche . For thus he saide in the open Councel , Concil. Chalced. Actio . 1. Pa. 767. Ego testimonia habeo Sanctorum Patrum , Athanasij , Gregorij , Cyrilli , in multis locis . Ego cum Patribus eijcior : Ego defendo Patrum Dogmata : Non transgredior in aliquo : Et horum Testimonia , non simpliciter , neque transitoriè , sed in Libris habeo : I haue the witnesse of the Holy Fathers , Athanasius , Gregorius , cyrillus , in many places . I am throwen foorth with the Fathers : I defende the Fathers Doctrine : I swarue not from them in any pointe : I haue theire witnesse , not barely , nor by the waie , but in theire Bookes .

So saide the Heretique Eutyches , Ego legi Scripta Beati Cyrilli , & Sanctorum Patrum , Concil. Chalced. Actio . 1. Pa. 793. Concil. Chalced. Actio . 4. Pa. 877. & Sancti Athanasij : I haue readde the Bookes of Cyrillus , of the Holy Fathers , and of Athanasius . So saide the Heretique carosus , Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem & octo Patrum , sic Credo : sic Baptizatus sum : Thus doo I beleue , and thus was I Baptized , according to the Exposition of the three hundred , and eighteene Fathers in the Councel of Nice . Thus y● Arian Heretiques alleged the Authoritie of the Ancient Father Origen : thus the Pelagian Heretiques alleged the Authoritie of S. Augustine . As , vpon occasion , it hath benne saide before .

Euen with sutche truthe , M. Hardinge , are you woonte to blase the Armes of your Religion . There is no toie so vaine , or so fabulous , but ye are hable by your conninge to bring it lineally , either from Christe him selfe , or from his Apostles , or from one , or other of the Ancient Fathers . The Bishop of Sidon in the Late diete of the Empiere holden at Augusta , Anno. 1548. auouched openly that ye had your whole Canon from the Apostles of Christe , woord by woord , euen as it is péeuishely written in your Masse Bookes . Andreas Barbatius proueth the Antiquitie of the Cardinalles of Rome , 1. Regum 2. Polydorus De Inuentorib . Li. 4 Cap. 9. by these woordes written in the firste Booke of the Kinges , Domini sunt Cardines Terrae : Et posuit super eos Orbem : The Corners of the Earth be the Lordes : and vpon them he hath sette the world , Abbate Panormitane saithe , Cardinalatus est de Iure Diuino : Quia Papa per Sacerdotes Leuiticos intelligit Cardinales : The Cardinalship standeth by the Law of God : Extra , Qui Filij sint Legitimi . per Venerabilem . Abb. For the Pope by the Leuitical Priestes vnderstandeth his Cardinalles . Mutche hereof is alleged before . Hosius séemeth to saie , that Monkes haue theire beginning euen from the Apostles , meaninge thereby , as one of your Companions there doothe , in fauoure , I trowe , of Religion , that Christe him selfe was the Abbat . For thus he saith , Hosius in Confessione Petricouien . Cap. 88. Copus , Dialo . 2. Pag. 194. Christus Dux , & exemplar vitae Monasticae : Christe was the Captaine , and samplar of Monkes life . And yet the same man afterwarde , as hauinge forgotten his former dreame , vtterly displaceth Christe , & geueth the whole honoure hereof vnto Elias , & Elizaeus : These be his woordes , Elias , & Elizaeus Duces instituti Benedictini : Elias , and Elizaeus were the Captaines of S. Benettes order , that is to saie , thei were Blacke Monkes ? By like wisedome ye would séeme to fetche your Holy Water from S. Augustine . This was sommetime a ioily good waie to winne credite , specially whiles , what so euer ye said , the people was ready to geue you care . So the olde Arcades saide in commendation of theire Antiquitie , that thei were a daie , or twoo elder then the Moone . Saturnus 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . beinge in Italie , for that he was a stranger , & no man knew , from whence he came , therefore was called Filius Caeli , & was thought to come from Heauen , Romulus , & Alexander , for that thei were borne in bastardie , & neuer knewe theire owne Fathers , therefore to magnifie the nobilitie of theire bloude , woulde be called the Children of the Goddes : the one of Mars , that other of Iuppitter .

With sutche Truthe , Pretense of Antiquitie . and Fidelitie , M. Hardinge , your woonte is , to painte out al the partes , and members of your Doctrine . For , be it neuer so vaine , or childishe , or lately diuised , yet ye beare vs in hande , that your Predecessours receiued the same , as you saie , of theire Bishoppes : and they of others theire Predecessours by order , vntil they reache to your Augustine the Monke of Rome , whom ye haue ful woorthily made a Sainte : your Augustine yée saie receiued the same of Gregorie : Gregorie of others before him : and they al , one of an other by continual ascente vnto S. Peter : and Peter of Christe : and Christe of God his Father .

No Heralde coulde lightly haue saide more in the mater . I trowe ye woulde proue by this Ascente , and Descente , that God the Father made Holy Water , and said Masse .

In deede , as wel herein , as also in your emptie names of Augustine , Hierome , Chrysostome , Ambrose , Basile , Cyprian , Dionyse , &c. as I tolde you once before , ye bringe vs onely a vaine shewe of painted boxes , and nothinge in them . For in al these Holy Fathers , where finde you either your Priuate Masse : or your halfe communion : or your Accidentes without Subiecte : or the reste of your like Vanities , wherewith ye haue so longe time deceiued the worlde ? Leaue your dissimulation : set aparte your Confectures , and blinde gheasses : and for your credites sake , once shewe vs these thinges in the Ancient Holy Fathers : and shew them plainely , and in déede : that wée maie thinke there is somme weight in your woorde .

But your owne Glose speakinge of the Ministration of the Holy Communion , whiche now in your Churches in a manner is wholy abolisshed , saith thus : Hoc Antiquum est . De Conse . Dist 2. per acta . In Gloss . Doc. Tonstallus , De Eucharistia . Lib. 1 Pag. 45. Anno. 1215. Erasm . 1. Corin. 7 Nam hodiè videtur esse relictum : This was the Olde order . For , as it seemeth , nowe it is leafte . Doctoure Tonstal saithe , It was no Heresie to denie your Transubstantiation , before your late Councel of Laterane . Erasmus , whoes iudgement , I thinke , ye wil not refuse , saith thus , In Synaxi Transubstantiationēe ser ò definiuit Ecclesia : In the Holy Ministration , it was longe , ere the Churche determined the Article of Transubstantiation . Al this notwithstandinge , M. Hardinge , ye blusshe not to saie , that bothe these , and al other your fantasies , haue benne conueighed vnto you by moste certaine Succession , from hand to hand : from your Englishe Augustine : from Gregorie : from the Fathers : from the Apostles : from Christe : and from the bosome of God him selfe .

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 3.

But howe if the thinges , whiche these menne are so desirous to haue seeme Newe , be founde of greatest Antiquitie ? Contrariwise , howe if al the thinges wel nighe , whiche they so greatly set out with the name of Antiquitie , hauinge benne wel and throughly examined , be at length found to be but Newe , & diuised of very late ? Soothely to saie , no man , that hath a true , and right consideration , woulde thinke the Iewes Lawes , and Ceremonies to be Newe in deede , for al Hammans accusation . For they were grauen in very Aunciente Cables of greatest Antiquitie . And , although many did take Christe to haue swarued from Abraham , and the Olde Fathers , and to haue brought in a certaine Newe Religion in his owne name , yet aunsweared hee them directly : If ye beleeued Moses , ye woulde beleeue me also . For my Doctrine is not so Newe , as you make it . For Moses , an Authoure of greatest Antiquitie , and one , to whom ye geue al honoure , hath spoken of me . S. Paule likewise , Though the Gospel of Iesus Christe be of many counted to be but New , yet hath it ( saith he ) a testimonie most old , both of the Law , and of the Prophetes . As for our doctrine , which we maie more rightly cal Christes Catholique Doctrine , it is so farre of from Newe , that God , who is aboue al most Auncient , and the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe , hath leafte the same vnto vs in the Gospel , in the Prophetes , and Apostles woorkes , beinge monumentes of greatest age . So that noman can nowe thinke our Doctrine to be Newe , onlesse the same thinke , either the Prophetes Faithe , or the Gospel , or els Christe him selfe to be Newe .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 1. & 2.

And as for theire Religion , if it be of so longe continuance , as they woulde haue menne wene it is , why doo they not proue it so by the examples of the Primitiue Chruche , and by the Fathers , and Councels of Olde times ? Why lieth so Auncient a cause thus longe in the duste , destitute of an Aduocate ? Fire , and swerde they haue had alwaies ready at hande : but as for the Olde Councels , and Fathers , al Mum , not a worde . They did surely againste al reason , to beginne firste with these so bloudy , and extreme meanes , if they coulde haue founde other more easy , and gentle waies .

And if thei truste so fully to Antiquitie , and vse no dissimulation , why didde Iohn Clemente a Countrie manne of oures , but fewe yeeres paste , in the presence of certaine honeste menne , and of good credite , teare and caste into the fire certaine leaues of Theodorete the moste Auncient Father , and a Greeke Bishop , wherein he plainely and euidently taught , that the Nature of Breade in the Communion is not changed , or abolished , or brought to nothinge ? And this didde he of pourpose , bicause he thought there was no other copie thereof to be founde .

M. Hardinge .

Touchinge the matter you haue deuised vpon M. Clemente , he dothe not onely denie it in word , that euer he burnte or otherwise destroied any leafe of Theodoritus , but also declareth by the whole order of his life , and by special regard and loue he beareth to the tonge , which that learned Bishop wrote in , that he hath euer ben , and yet is farre from the wil to burne or destroie any scrappe , syllable , or letter of Greeke , mutche more certaine leaues of the learned Father Theodoritus , where any sutche thinge was written , as you imagin . Nay , Wel ye haue the trouthe ? In very dede he saieth , and by sutche waie , as a godly and graue man maie auouche a trouth , protesteth , that he neuer had hitherto any parte of that booke , neither in Greeke , or in Latine in written hand .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This reporte was made in the presence , and hearinge of M. Peter Martyr , and sundrie other learned menne , of whom certaine are yet aliue . The reporter was both a Learned man , and a graue Father , & not longe sithence a Bishop in Englande : who saide , he was presente , and sawe the thinge donne with his eies . More to saie hereof , I am not hable .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 3.

Why saithe Albertus Pigghius , that the Ancient Father S. Augustine had a wrong Opinion of Original Sinne ? Dis. 27. Quidam Augusti . De Bono Viduita . Cap. 10. And that he erred , and lied , and vsed False Logique , as touching the case of Matrimonie concluded after a Vowe made : whiche Matrimonie S. Augustine affirmeth to be perfite in deede , & that it maie not be vndonne againe .

M. Hardinge .

* * M. Hardinge refuseth S. Augustines Authoritie . We neuer tooke our selues bounde to any priuate opinion of what so euer Doctoure . For al our faithe is Catholike , that is to saie , Vniuersal , sutche as not one Doctour alone ‡ ‡ This Vntruth is ouer colde , & vaine For M. Hardinge wel knoweth , the substance of his Doctrine standeth not by the Doctoures . but the Vniuersal number of Doctoures haue taught , and Christen people haue receiued . If in a secrete pointe of learninge S. Augustine or S. Cyprian teache singulerly , we folowe them not . Mutche lesse do we binde our selues to mainteine , what so euer Albertus Pighius hath written . Our Doctrine of Original sinne is to be readen in the fifth session of the late Tridentine councel . Sub Paulo . 3. If Pighius dissent from that , he dissenteth from vs . But if he stande onely vpon some pointe not yet determined by the Churche , his opinion maie be tollerated vntil the Churche define that question . When you note the pointe , ( for there are many pointes in that Doctrine ) then we wil shewe you further our minde therein .

The mariage , whiche is made after a simple Vowe of chastitie , standeth in his force , by reason that there is more in mariage , then was in the bare Vowe . * * Promisse made vnto God without Deliuerie A folie of al folies . For in the simple vowe there is nothinge but a promise made to God , without any deliuerance of that thinge , whiche was promised . But in mariage the man and woman by present acceptation of eche others bonde , do make the matter to extende beyonde the nature of a promise . Therefore if likewise the vowe made to God were not a simple promise , but also a deliueringe of the thinge promised : then cannot the mariage folowinge make voide the vowe , whiche was not onely promised , but also performed . ‡ ‡ A Vowe made before the Bishop , or Abbate , is of more force then a Vowe made before God alone . The performance is , when he that voweth , doth professe him selfe in the handes of his Superiour by taking the habite of some Religion , or by receiuinge holy orders of the Bishop . For in that solemne acte he deliuereth vp al his owne right and power , so that now be is not maister of him selfe to geue his Body to any person in mariage , or otherwise . You shoulde knowe by the Lawe of nature , if you woulde consider it , that if I promise a horse to one man , and afterwarde promise the same , and deliuer him to an other : that the seconde man is true Lorde of that horse , although I haue donne iniurie to him , to whom I made the firste promise . For the promise with the deliuery , is more vaileable to transferre my right in the horse , then my promise alone . Euen so it is a greate sinne to breake a simple Vowe of chastitie made to God .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Howe lightly your Captaine General , Albertus Pigghius , weigheth the Authoritie of S. Augustine , it maie appeare by his woordes . For thus he writeth , Quòd non solùm incerta , Albert. Pigghi . in 1. Controuer. De peccato Originis . sed etiam falsa sit Augustini Sententia , ita mihi demonstrari posse videtur : Thus me thinketh , I am hable to proue , that S. Augustines Iudgemente herein is not onely vncertaine , but also False . And againe afterwarde in the Conclusion , Quòd Augustini Sententia non solùm incerta , sed etiàm certo ' Falsa sit , satis mihi demonstratum videtur : That S. Augustines Judgemente is , not onely vncertaine , but also certainely False , Alber. Pigghius in eadem Controuersia . mee thinketh I haue sufficiently proued . And againe , Non multùm me mouet Augustini Sententia : Mihi non placet Augustini ea de re Definitio , & Sententia : S. Augustines Judgement dooth not greatly moue me : I like not S. Augustines Determination and Judgemente , touchinge this mater . And againe , Ego omnium , non solùm Aduersariorum , sed etiam Catholicorum receptas in Scholis redarguo Sententias : I doo reproue the Iudgementes , Ruard . Tapper . Liriensis , Episcopus Lusitanus . not onely of our Aduersaries , but also of the Catholiques allowed in the Schooles . For these causes Ruardus Tapper of Louaine , and Liriensis of Portugale haue namely written againste Pigghius . Vowe Simple & Solemne . And for as mutche , as yee are desirous to haue the pointe noted , wherein Pigghius so mutche misliketh S. Augustines iudgemente , Petrus à Soto your owne Doctoure noteth it thus , Pigghius de hoc malè audit , Petrus à Soto , De Natura , & Gratia . quasi Peccata in nobis Originalia omnin ò inficietur : Pigghius is il reported of , as a man , that vtterly denieth Original Sinne . Thus your Doctoures weigh S. Augustines Authoritie , lighter , or heauier , as thei liste .

The mater of Marriage after a Vowe is blowen awaie with a séely Distinction of a Vowe Simple , and a Vowe Double , whiche yée commonly cal a Solemne Vowe : and al the same is substantially , & clearely proued by the promise , and deliuerie of a Horse . Surely , M. Hardinge , a very simple Creature , and sommewhat inferioure to a Horse , would hardely be tied to sutche Distinctions . For the better cleeringe hereof , that ye cal a Simple Vowe , that is made before God alone : that Double , or Solemne , that is made in the presence of the Bishop , or Abbate . Nowe , it is plainely confessed by your owne Doctours , that your Simple Vowe , be it neuer so Simple , yet bindeth you as streitely before God , as the Double .

For Pope Coelestinus saithe , Extra , Qui Clerici & vouentes . Rursus . Votum Simplex apud Deum non minùs ligat , quàm solenne : The Simple Vowe before God bindeth no lesse , then the Solemne . And touching the Promisse , and Deliuerie of your Horse , Iohannes Scotus saith , Alia ratio est , Scotus in 4. Senten . Dist. 38. qu. 1. quòd Vouens Solenniter mittit in possessionem illum , cuì Vouet Solenniter : Vouens autem Priuatè , non : sed quasi promittit . Sed haec ratio valet minùs , quàm secunda . Quia omnia , quae intrinseca sunt Voto , vt Votum respicit actum voluntatis , per quem obligat se vouendo , & transfert Dominium suum in alterum , omnia , inquam , ista sunt aequalia hinc inde . Igitur non magis datio hîc , quàm ibi : nec promissio ibi , quàm hîc : An other reason , that they vse , is this : That he , that maketh a Solemne Vowe , putteth him , to whom he so voweth , in possession . But so doothe not he , that maketh a Simple Vowe : but onely geueth his promisse . This Reason is woorse , and weaker , then the Seconde . For al thinges , that be of the Substance of the Vowe , ( as a Vowe concerneth the Acte of the Minde , whereby the Minde bindeth it selfe by Vowinge , and transposeth the ownership of it selfe vnto an other ) al these thinges , I saie , are of like weight , and equal of either side . Therefore there is no more perfourmance of promisse in the solemne Vowe , then in the Simple : nor more promise in the Simple Vowe , then in the Solemne . Thus you sée , M. Hardinge , with greate trauaile , and mutche a doo , ye haue founde a difference without difference . Caietan . in Thom. Secund. Secundae quast . 88. Arti. 7. Cardinal Caietan saithe , Eiusdem speciei est Transgressio Voti Solennis , & simplicis : Et differunt solùm secundum magis graue , & minùs graue : The breakinge of a Vowe Simple , and a Vowe Solemne , is of one kinde , or Nature : And the difference is onely in more greeuous , and lesse greeuous . Therefore Thomas of Aquine him selfe , the firste Father , as it appeareth , of this Distinction , saithe thus : Thomas in Secund. Secundae , quaest. 88. Art. 11. August . De Bono viduitatis Ca. 10. Videtur , quòd Ecclesia possit dispensare in Voto Continentiae Solemnizato per susceptionem Sacri Ordinis : It seemeth , that the Churche maie dispense with a Vowe of Chastitie Solemnized by the receiuinge of Holy Orders .

And this is it , that S. Augustine saithe , Qui dicunt , talium Nuptias , non esse Nuptias , sed potiùs Adulteria , mihi non videntur satis acutè , ac diligenter considerare , quid dicant : They that saie , the Marriage of sutche Menne , or Weemen ( as haue Vowed Chastitie ) is no Marriage at al , but rather Aduouterie , seeme vnto me not to consider discreetely , or aduisedly , what they saie . Thus therefore , M. Hardinge , notwithstandinge your Simple , or Double Vowe , S. Augustine saithe vnto you , yee speake Vnaduisedly , and Vndiscretely , and vnderstande not , what you saie . But of this whole mater , wée haue entreated before more at large .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 4.

Also , when they did of late put in Printe the Auncient Father Origens woorke vpon the Gospel of S. Iohn , Liber hodie extat & circumfertur mutilus . why leaste they quite out the whole sixthe Chaptre , wherein it is likely , yea rather of very suertie , that the saide Origene had written many thinges concerninge the Sacramente of the Holy Communion , contrarie to these mennes mindes , and woulde rather put foorthe that Booke mangled , then ful and perfite : for feare it shoulde reproue them and their parteners of their erroure . Cal ye this trustinge to Antiquitie , when ye rente in pieces , keepe backe , maime , and burne the Auncient Fathers ?

M. Hardinge .

A wise man affirmeth nomore then he knoweth : a good man nomore then standeth with Charitie : a learned man , in matters of weight , nomore then he can auouche by euident ‡ ‡ Hereby M. Hardinge saketh mutche the credite of his owne Learninge . reasons , ‡ sure proufes , or ‡ sufficient Auctorities . This Defender charginge the Catholikes with manglinge of Origen vpon S. Iohns Gospell , as though of pourpose they had lefte out the sixth Chaptre , whiche he imagineth to conteine their Sacramentary doctrine contrary to the Catholike Faithe : for asmuche as he is vncertaine hereof , and thereby noteth a greate vntruthe in the setters foorthe of that woorke , neither by any meanes is able to proue the same : he sheweth himselfe a foole , aslaunderer , and an vnlearned man . Wee are like I perceiue , to heare of the faultes they knowe by vs , sithe that they burthen vs with that , that they knowe not , and for the same can pretende but a slender coniecture . But Syr defender , why complaine you not of the leauinge out of other Chapters , and partes of that woorke , as well as of the sixth Chapter ? In prolog . 39. Hom. Origenis i● Lucam . For whereas Origen wrote vpon Iohn nine and thirty tomes , as S. Hierome witnesseth : the Latine translation Printed in Venis hath but. 32 lackinge the seuen laste tomes . Neither be all they whole and perfite , but many of them maymed and mangled .

What maner a Doctrine of the Blessed Sacramente he hath vttered vpon the sixthe Chapter of Iohn , and how Catholike he was in that pointe , it appeareth by diuerse his other woorkes , that you haue no cause to belie him in that you neuer sawe . For the truthe of Christes Body in the Sacrament , his testimonies be euident . Hom. 13. In Exod. For credites sake , here will I recite a couple . In one place he saithe thus : Ye knowe whiche haue benne woonte to be present at the Diuine Mysteries , how that when ye take the Body of our Lorde , ye keepe it with all warenesse and reuerence , that no whit thereof fall downe , that nothinge of the consecrated gifte miscary . For ye beleue your selues to be gilty , and right well doo ye so beleeue , if by negligence ought fall downe . In an other place , writinge vpon the Centurions woordes spoken to Christe , Hom. 5. in diuerso● Euangelij locos . Matth. 8. When ( saithe he ) thou takest that Holy meate , and that vncorrupte deintie , when thou enioiest that Breadde and Cuppe of Life , thou Eatest and Drinkest the Body , and Bloudde of our Lorde , then our Lorde entreth vnder they roofe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée laie not in the manglinge of this Anciente Father , as mater of sufficient euidence , but onely as a greate coniecture of your Corruption , referringe the Iudgemente thereof vnto the Reader . Certainely , M. Hardinge , wee haue good cause many waies , to doubte your dealinge : but in nothinge more , then in the handlinge of the Fathers . Concil. Aphrican . Cap. 105. Ye remember , how wickedly Pope Zosimus , the better to coloure his Ambition , longe sithence corrupted the Nicene Councel . Neither can ye forgeate , what trifles , and fabulous Vanities yee haue lately sente vs abroade vnder the olde smooky names of Abdias , Leontius , Amphilochius , Hippolytus , and Clemens , whom yée so solemnely cal the Apostles Felowe . In these vncleanely conueiances , to any wise man there can appeare no simple meaninge . Notwithstandinge ye thought it good policie , to deceiue the worlde by any shifte , or shadowe of Anciente Fathers .

What Origen thought of the Woordes of Christe in the sixth Chapter of S. Iohn , Origen . in Leuiticum , Hom. 7. it is easy to coniecture , by that he hath written otherwheres . Vpon the Leuiticus he writeth thus , Est & in Euangelio Litera , quae occidit : Si enim secundum Literam sequaris illud , quod dictum est , Nisi Comederitis Carnem Filij Hominis &c , ea Litera occidit : Euen in the Gospel there is a Letter , that killeth : For where as Christe saithe , Onlesse ye eate the Fleashe of the Sonne of Man &c , if ye take the same accordinge to the Letter , that Letter killeth . This was Origens iudgemente of the Sacramente : and the same in those daies was counted Catholique .

Ye replie : Origen . in Exodum , Homi. 13. Origen saithe , When ye take the Body of our Lorde , yee keepe it with al warinesse , and reuerence , that no parte thereof fal downe . And againe , When thou takest that Holy meate , Origen . in Diuersos Euangelij locos , Homi. 5. then our Lorde entreth vnder thy roofe . Bothe these places in my Former Replie are fully answeared . But what Catholique Doctrine , M. Hardinge , can ye pike out of these woordes ? What Transubstantiation ? What Real Presence ? What Accidentes without Subiecte ? Ye wil saie , Origen calleth the Sacramente Christes Body . So doothe Christe him selfe : so doothe Paule : so doo al the Anciente Fathers : bicause it is the sacramente of Christes Body . Your owne Glose saithe , De Consecra . Dist. 2. Hoc est . as it hath benne often alleged , Vocatur Corpus Christi , id est , Significat Corpus Christi : It is called the Body of Christe , that is to saie , it Signifieth the Body of Christe . But the people , yée saie , receiued it warily , and with reuerence . So doo they nowe , euen in those Churches , that you moste mislike withal .

He saithe further , When thou receiuest that Holy Meate , then our Lorde entreth vnder thy roofe . And what greate mater thinke you to winne hereby ? Euen in the same place Origen saith , Intrat etiam nunc Dominus sub rectum credentium duplici Figura , vel more : Euen nowe the Lorde entreth vnder the roufe of the Faitheful after twoo manners , or sortes . For , when the Holy , and Godly Bishoppes enter into your House , euen then through them our Lorde entreth . Wil ye conclude hereof , that the Bishop is Transubstantiate into Christe ? Or that Christe is Really , and Substantially dwellinge in him ? This is an Allegorie , M. Hardinge , or a Mystical kinde of Speache , wherein , as you knowe , that Learned Father was mutche delited . The Roofe , that he meaneth , is not Material , but Spiritual : that is to saie , not the Body of Man , but the Soule : Like as also the Comminge , or Entringe of Christe into the same is not Bodily , but onely Spiritual .

So S. Augustine saithe , Augustin . Quaestionum Euangeli . Li. 2. Ca. 33. August . De Tempore , Sermo. 74. Praedicant Christum , & cum annuntiando venire faciunt in exhausta fame viscera Filij esurientis : They Preache Christe , and by Preachinge , cause him to comme into the Bowelles of the hungry childe , wasted with Famine . Likewise againe he saithe of the Centurion , Tecto non recipiebat Christum : Corde recipiebat : quanto humilior , tanto capacior , tanto plenior : He receiued not Christe into his house : he receiued him into his Harte : The more humble , the more roome had he to receiue him , Chrysostom . in Psalm . 41. and the fuller he was . So saithe Chrysostome , Qui vocant Dauid cum Cythara , intus Christum per ipsum vocant : They that cal in Dauid with his Harpe , by meane of him cal in Christe . Chrysostom . in Matth. Hom. 46. Againe he saithe , Christus aut suscipitur , aut occiditur apud nos . Si enim credimus verbis eius , suscipimus eum , & generamus in nobis : Christe either is receiued , or slaine within vs . For if wee beleeue his Woorde , wee receiue him , and begeate him within vs . Hieronym . ad Paulam De obitu Blesillae . In sutche sorte S. Hierome writeth vnto Paula , Ad talem clemens ingreditur Iesus , & dicit , Quid ploras ? Non est mortua puella : sed dormit : Into sutche a one Iesus entreth milde , and gracious , and saithe , Why weepest thou ? Thy damesel is not Deade : but lieth asleepe .

This manner of speache , as I saide before , is Spiritual , or Mystical : and maie not be taken accordinge to the outwarde sounde of the Letter . Images painted in churches . So saithe S. Hierome , Secundum Mysticos intellectus , quotidiè Iesus ingreditur in Templum Patris : Accordinge to the Mystical vnderstandinge , Hieronym . in Matth. li. 3. ca. 21. Origen . in Matth. Tracta. 35. Christe entreth dayly into the Temple of his Father . In this sense Origen saithe , Christe entreth into our House . Whiche phrase , writinge vpon S. Mathewe , he expresseth in plainer manner : Tradunt , & eijciunt ab anima sua Saluatorem , & Verbum Veritatis , quod erat in eis : They betraie , and throwe foorth our Saueour from out of their Soulet ( as doo al Apostates , and Renegates , that denie the knowen Truthe of God ) and they betraie the Woorde of Truthe , that was within them .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 1. & 2.

It is a worlde to see , how welfauouredly , and how towardly , touching Religion , these men agree with the Fathers , of whom they vse to vaunte , they be their owne good .

The Olde Councel Eliberine made a Decree , that nothinge , that is honoured of the people , should be painted in the Churches .

M. Hardinge .

The woordes of that prouincial Councel be these : It is thought good , that paintinges be not in the Chruche : Eliber . Concil. Ca. 36. that what is woorshipped or Adored , it be not painted on Walles . This expresse prohition of paintinge , and that nought be painted in Churche Walles , that is woorshipped or Adored , maie seeme bothe to presuppose a former vse of suche paintinges , and also to allowe the other sorte of images . Whether it doo or no , * * It forceth not greatly . it forceth not greatly . The seuenth general Councell assembled at Nice against the Imagebreakers , hath not onely allowed the ‡ ‡ Deuoute vse of Images . Deuoute vse of Images commonly vsed in the Churches of Christen people : but also condemned al those that throwe them downe , and maineteine the contrary opinion . Now we are taught that a prouinciall Councell ought to geue place to a Generall .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The paintinge of Images in Churche walles was forebidden in the Councel holden at Eliberis , or Granado in Spaine : Ergo , saie you , sutche Images were vsed before that Councel . Al this maie wel be graunted without preiudice . But yée sée plainely , they were forebidden in that Councel . One saithe , Ex malis moribus bonae Leges ortae sunt : Of il manners came good Lawes . Menne vsed , yée saie , before the time to painte Images in Churche walles . But this vse was naught . And therefore the Councel Decreed against it : & that , as it maie be geathered by the woordes , for feare of Idolatrie .

But you saie , the Seconde General Nicene Councel allowed wel the deuoute vse of Images . And a General Councel ought to take place before a Prouincial : For that in a General Councel there are many Bishoppes : in a Prouincial , there are but fewe . Thus , I sée , ye weigh your Religion , not by Truthe , but by Companie . How be it , this Rule is very loose , & maie soone deceiue you .

Good Christian Reader , let no man beguile thée by the coloure of Councelles . Reade this Seconde Nicene Councel throughout , if thou be hable . Thou wilt saie , there was neuer any Assemblie of Christian Bishoppes so vaine , so péeuishe , so wicked , so blasphemous , so vnwoorthy in al respectes to be called a Councel . The blessed Bishoppes there agreed togeather with one consente , that Images in Churches are not onely to be allowed , but also deuoutely , and reuerently to be honoured , and that with the same Honoure , that is dewe to God him selfe . One of them saithe , Venerandas Imagines recipio , & Adoro , & id perpetuò docebo : I receiue , and woorship the Reuerende Images : Concil. Nicenum 2. Actione . 2. and this wil I teache , while I liue . An other saith , Sacras Imagines perfectè Adoro : qui verò secùs consitentur , eos anathematizo : I doo perfitely Adoure the Holy Images : Adouring of Images . and I accurse al them , that holde the contrarie .

An other saithe , Concil. Nicenum 2. Actio . 4. Non sant duae Adorationes , sed vna , Ipsius Imaginis , & primi Exemplaris , cuius est Imago : There be not twoo kindes of Adoration , but one , dewe as wel to the Image , as to the Paterne of the Image . This Holy Councel , ye saie , decréed againste Imagebreakers . But the Counsel of God decréeth againste Image woorshippers , and Imagemakers .

S. Augustine saithe , August . De Consensu Euangel. Lib. 1. Cap. 10. Sic omnino errare meruerunt , qui Christum , & Apostolos eius , non in Sanctis Codicibus , sed in Pictis Parietibus quaesierunt . Nec mirum si à Pingentibus Fingentes decepti sunt : So were they woorthy to be deceiued , that sought , Christe , and his Apostles , not in the Bookes of Holy Scripture , but in Painted Walles . Neither maie wee marueile , if Painers by Painters were deceiued .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 3.

The Olde Father Epiphanius saith , Epiphan. in Epistol. ad Iohan. Episcop. Hierosolymitan . It is an horrible wickednesse , and a Sinne not to be suffered , for any man , to set vp any Picture in the Churche of the Christians , yea , though it were the Picture of Christe him selfe . Yet these menne store al theire Temples , and eche corner of them with painted , and carued Images , as though without them , Religion were nothinge woorthe .

M. Hardinge .

To that ye pretende to allege out of Epiphanius , we saie , first , that although he were of the minde you make him to be of , Epiphanius but one man . and saide , as you reporte of him , yet is he but one man , whose singular opinion is not to be preferred before the ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the Anciente Fathers make no mention of Images . Iudgement of al other so many excellent Fathers , and the determination of the whole Churche . * * Vntruthe For wee report him truely , as shal appeare . Nowe in deede you misreporte Epiphanius . For he saithe not so , as your write . He calleth not the hauing of the Image of Christe , of any Saincte in the Churche an horrible wickednesse , or a sinne not to be suffered : he hath no sutch wordes .

Secondly , what if we saie , this place maketh nothinge at al againste the vse of Images , and that ‡ ‡ Vntruthe For his woordes be plaine , Imaginem , quasi Christi , aut Sancti cuiusdam . he speaketh neuer a woorde againste the Image of Christe , or his Sainctes in the Churche , but onely againste one particular Image , whiche he founde hanginge at a Churche dore in a village of Palestine called Anablatha ? And seing he * * A childishe , and a vaine shifte . For Epiphanius speaketh directly against al images . speaketh not generally againste al Images , but against sutche as that was , which there he noteth by this special word , Istiusmodi Vela , vailes of this sorte : he geueth vs to vnderstande that he misliked some qualitie or circumstance of that one Image , and not reproued the ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Images then were not commonly receiued in the Churche . common and receiued custome of the Churche in hauing Images in due order . Now , what circumstance that was , it dependeth of so many particularities . whiche might happen either on the Images parte , as it is moste like , or on the peoples parte there inhabitant , and is so litle declared by Epiphanius in that place , that neither we can saie any thinge determinately thereof , nor ye should bring sutche an obscure , and vncertaine matter to the disproufe of a veritie alwaies so wel in the Churche acknowledged and practised .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O , how many , and howe prety shiftes here be diuised , if any woulde healpe , to serue the pourpose ? One of the late Louanian Cleregie , for that he sawe , these woordes were cleare , and might not be auoided by any Glose , therefore be thought it the wisest waie , Firste to bringe the Authoritie , Copus , Dialog. 5. Pag. 692. Copus , Pag. 698. and credite hereof in question , and to saie , 2. that Epiphanius neuer wrote any sutche Epistle : Nexte he saith , The same Epistle was neuer translated by S. Hierome . But , for as mutche as he sawe , that his folie herein was open , and easy to be controlled , Thirdely he saithe , that the Image , Epiphanius rente the Image &c. that Epiphanius rente in sunder , 3. was not the Image , either of Christe , or of any Christian Saincte , but the Heathen Image of Iuppiter , or Hercules , 4. or somma other Idole , he knoweth not what . Fourthly he saithe , The saide Holy Father Epiphanius was an Heretique , Copus , Pag. 702. one of those , that were called Anthropomorphitae , Copus , Pag. 703. whose erroure was , That God in his Diuinitie had the whole shape , and proportion of a Man . How be it , this folie far passeth al the reste . For it behoued those Heretiques moste of al others , for defense of their erroure , to maineteine Images . And yet it seemeth a very vnciuile parte , to condemne so Reuerende , & so Godly a Father of so grosse an Heresie , without prouse : and specially sutche a Father , as hath so learnedly written againste al Heresies . Fifthly he saithe , Copus . Pag. 703. euen as M. Hardinge here saithe , 5. Epiphanius was but a man , & one man , and his Iudgemente singulare , and therefore the lesse to be estéemed . Laste of al , Copus , Pag. 706. 707. he saithe , 6. The same Holy Father Epiphanius was a Iewe : and beinge a Christian , and a Reuerende Father , and a Christian Bishop , yet notwithstandinge maineteined the Religion of the Iewes , and therefore rente in sunder the Image of Christe , Simeon Metaphrastes . in despite of Christe . And for proufe hereof , he allegeth Simeon Metaphrastes , a Doctoure as wise as him selfe .

M. Hardinge , for that he imagined , these shiftes were very vnsauery , & woulde hardly serue , therefore hath diuised to conueigh him selfe out somme other waie . Firste he saithe , Wée falsiste this Holy Father , and allege his woordes otherwise , then they be . Secondely he saithe , It was not the Image of Christe , that Epiphanius found painted in the Vele , but somme other prety thing , he knoweth not what . Lastely he saithe , Epiphaniusr reproueth not generally al sutche Veles , so painted , but onely that one Vele , that he founde .

For trial hereof , Epiphanius ad Iohan. Hierosolymitan . Apud Hierony . Tom. 2. I referre mée self to the Original . The woordes thereof be these : Inueni ibi velum pendens in foribus eiusdem Ecclesiae tinctum , atque depictum , & habens Imaginem , quasi Christi , aut Sancti cuiusdam . Non enim satis memini , cuius Imago fuerit . Cùm ergo hoc vidissem in Ecclesia Christi , contra Authoritatem Scripturarum , Hominis pendere Imaginem , scidi illud : & magis dedi consilium Custodibus eiusdem loci , vt pauperem mortuum eo obuoluerent , & efferrent &c. Quaeso , vt iubeas Presbyteros eiudem loci praecipere , in Ecclesia Christi istiusmodi Vela , quae contra Religionem nostram veniunt , non appendi : Decet enim honestatem tuam hanc magis habere sollicitudinem , vt crupulositatem tollat , quae indigna est Ecclesia Christi , & populis , qui tibi crediti sunt : I founde there a Vele hanginge at the entrie of the Churche , stained , and painted , and hauinge the Image , as it were , of Christe , or of somme Saincte . For , whose Picture it was in deede , I doo not remember . Therefore , when I sawe the Image of a man to hange in the Churche of Christe , contrarie to the commaundemente of the Scriptures , I tare it in sunder : and gaue counsel to the Wardens of that Churche , that they shoulde winde , and burie somme poore body in it &c. I beseeche you , charge the Priestes of that place , that they commaunde , that sutche Veles , as be contrarie to our Religion , be no more hanged vp in the Churche of Christe . It behooueth your reuerence to haue care hereof , that this Superstition , vnmeete for the Churche of Christe , and vnmeete for the people to thee committed , be remoued . Nowe , iudge you , M. Hardinge , wherein wée haue falsified this Learned Fathers woordes . You saie , He speaketh not one woorde againste the Image of Christe , or his Sainctes . I beséeche you then , againste what other Image speaketh he ? Habens Imaginem , quasi Christi , vel Sancti cuiusdam . Epiphanius saithe plainely , It had the Image , as it were , of Christe , or of somme Saincte : You saie , He founde faulte with that Vele onely , & not with any other . Once againe , I beséeche you , telle vs , what had the Image of Christe , or of his Sainctes offended Epiphanius , more then other Images ? If the Image of Christe maie not be suffered in the Churche of Christe , what Image then maie be suffered ? What cause of difference can you imagine , that any other Veles should be allowed rather , Images in churches . then this ? Your answeare is this , Wee cannot saie any thinge determinately thereof . Whereby it appereth , ye woulde faine saie somewhat , if ye wiste what . Yet muste wée be ouerruled by al and euery your determinations , yea , although you your selfe confesse , ye can determinately determine nothinge .

Notwithstandinge , the Anciente Fathers of the Churche haue longe sithence determinately , Lactant. Lib. 2. Ca. 19. and plainely iudged againste you . Lactantius saithe in plaine woordes : Non est dubium , quin Religio nulla sit , vbicunque Simulachrum est : Out of al doubte , there is no Religion , where so euer there is an Image . Tertullian saithe , Tertullian . De Idololatria . Idolum tam fieri , quàm coli Deus prohibet . Quanto ' praecedit , vt fiat , quod coli possit , tantò prius est , ne fiat , si coli non licet . Facio , ait quidam , sed non colo : quasi ob aliquam causam colere non audeat , nisi ob quam & facere non debeat : Scilicet , ob Dei offensam vtrobique . Imò tu colis , qui facis vt coli possit : God hath forebidden an Image , or an Idole , as wel to be made , as to be woorshipped . As farre as makinge goeth before woorshippinge , so far is it before , that the thinge be not made , that maie not be woorshipped . Somme man wil saie , I make it : but I woorship it not : As though he durste not to woorship it for any other cause , but onely for the same cause , for whiche he ought not to make it . I meane bothe waies for Goddes displeasure . Nay rather , thou woorshippest the Image , that geuest the cause , for others to woorship it . Therefore S. Augustine , speakinge of the Image of God the Father , August . De Fide & Symbolo . Ca. 7. saithe thus , Tale simulachrum Deo fingere , nefarium est : To diuise sutche an Image for God , it is abominable .

Theodorus the Bishop of Ancyra saithe , Sanctorum Imagines , & Species ex Materialibus coloribus formati minimè decorum puramus . Citatur in Concil. Nicen. 2. Action . 6. Manifestum enim est , quòd vana sit huiusmodi cogitatio , & Diabolicae deceptionis inuentum : Wee thinke it not conueniente , to Painte the Images of Sainctes with Material , or Earthly colours . For it is euident , that this is a vaine Imagination , and the procuremente of the deceitefulnesse of the Diuel .

To like yourpose writeth Epiphanius , Estote memores , dilecti Filij , ne in Ecclesias Imagines inferatis , neque in Sanctorum Coemiterijs eas statuatis . Sed perpetuò circumferte Deum in cordibus vestris . Quin etiam neque in domo communi tolerentur . Non enim fas est , Christianum per oculos suspensum teneri , sed per occupationem mentis : My deere Children , be yee mindeful , that ye bringe no Images into the Churches , and that yee erecte vp none at the burialles of the Sainctes . But euermore carrie God in your Hartes . Nay , suffer not Images to be , no not in your priuate Houses . For it is not lawful , to leade a Christian man by his eies , but rather by the studie , or exercise of his minde .

For this cause Epiphanius saithe , The Superstition of Images is vnfitte for the Churche of Christe .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 4.

The olde Fathers Origene , Origen . in Leui. Ca. 16. & Chrysostome exhorte the People to reade the Scriptures , Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 2. Idem in Iohan . 31. to buye them Bookes , to reason at home bitwixte them selues of Diuine maters : Wiues with their Husbandes , & Parentes with their Children : These menne condemne the Scriptures , as deade Elementes , and , asmutche as euer they maie , barre the People from them .

M. Hardinge .

‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the whole hereof is true : and no parte false . Partely it is true , partely false , that you saie . Origen exhorteth all , to resorte to the Churches in the Holy daies , Homil 9. in Leuit. Cap. 16. and there to heare the woordes of God : and thereof afterwarde to thinke earnestly , and to meditate on the Lawe of God , and to exercise their mindes in it daie and night , in the waie , in their house , in their bedde , and when they rise . This holde we withall , and be desirous , the * * Ovaine excuse . Many of your people neuer heare Sermon in al there liues . people beare awaie that the true and Godly Preachers teache them in the Churche , Readinge of the Scriptures and that they thinke of it , and put it in dayly practise of life . For els to what serueth all our Preachinge ?

Chrysostome Hom. 2. in Math. speaketh against them , whiche contemned the Scriptures , and saide , they were no Monkes , but had wiues and Children , and care of householde . As though it perteined not to maried men to reade any parte thereof , but to Monkes onely .

If in our time the people mighte be induced to reade the Holy Scriptures , with suche mindes , for suche causes , to suche intents and purposes onely , as Chrysostome requireth : God forbid , we shoulde by any meanes staie them therefrom . ‡ ‡ M. Hardinges fauourable opinion of the people . But consideringe the maner of our time , and callinge to due examination the curiositie , the temeritie , the vnreuerence , the contempte of all holy thinges , that now all men may espie in the people : if we thinke it not good they be admitted to the readinge of the Scriptures freely and without any limitation , how so euer you and your fellowes iudge of vs , we doubt not of the accompt , we haue to make of that our meaninge before our Lordes dredfull seate of iudgemente . Now to conclude , we tell you , that you haue misreported bothe Chrysostome , and specially Origen . For how so euer they speake of the readinge , and meditation of the Scriptures , for amendement of life , verely in the places by you quoted , * * Manifeste vntruthe . Reade the Answeare . they exhorte not the people to reason , and dispute of diuine matters amonge them selues , specially the husbandes with their wiues , the parentes with their children , as you saie they doo .

The B. of Sarisburie .

For as mutche as ye saie , parte hereof is true , and parte false , I truste , ye wil géeue us leaue fréely to vse the Truthe , vntil ye shal finde your selfe better hable to proue the Falshedde . It séemeth not greatly to mislike you , that the people haue somme little libertie , to reade somme sutche parte of the Scriptures , as you maie beste spare them , for the orderinge of their liues . Whereby it appeareth , that for quietinge of their Consciences in maters of Religion , and causes of Truthe , yée thinke it best , they reade nothinge . And this , ye saie , ye are hable to answeare before the dreadful seate of Goddes Iudgemente . Touchinge the Truthe hereof , to saie so mutche , as might be saide , it woulde require greate waste of time . S. Augustine saithe , Si desit , August . De Ciuita . Li. 11. Ca. 2. Hieronym . ad Demetriad . De Virginita tuenda . aut ignoretur , quà eundum fit , quid prodest nosse , quò eundum fit ? If ye haue not , or know not , what waie to goe , August . De Tempore , Sermo. 55. what shal it profite you to knowe , whither to goe ? S. Hierome saithe , Vt maius est , voluntatem Domini facere , quàm nosse , ita prius est nosse , quàm facere . Illud Merito praecedit : Hoc ordine : As it is more , to doo the wil of our Lorde , then to knowe it : so the Knowlege of the same goeth before the Dooinge . In goodnesse , Dooinge goeth before : in order , Knowinge . Againe S. Augustine saithe , Si Scripturas Diuinas aut non legimus ipsi , aut legentes alios non libenter audimus , ipsa nobis medicamenta conuertuntur in vulnera : & inde habebimus Iudicium , vnde potuimus habere remedium : If we either reade not the Scriptures our selues , or be not desirous to heare others reade them , then are our Medicines turned into woundes : and then , where wee mighte haue had remedie , wee shal haue Iudgemente . Sutche saieinges are common , and ordinarie in S. Chrysostome . Thus he saithe , Chrysostom . in Genesim , Hom. 6. Librum Diuinum accipiat aliquis in manum : conuocatisque proxìmìs , per Diuina eloquia riget & suam mentem , & conuenientium : vt sic Diabolicas insidias effugere valeamus : Let one of you take in hande the Holy Booke : and let him cal his Neighbours aboute him : and by the Heauenly woordes let him water , and refreashe bothe theire mindes , Chrysostom . in Genes. Homil. 10. and also his owne . Againe he saithe , Poterimus & domi versantes , ante , & post Conuiuium , acceptis in manus Diuinis Libris , vtilitatem inde capere , & Spiritualem Cibum animae praebere . Beinge at home , we maie bothe before , and after Meate , take the Holy Bookes in hande , and thereof receiue greate profite , Chrysost. in Genes. Homil. 29. and Minister spiritual foode vnto our soule . And againe , Etiam domi vacemus Diuinarum Scripturarum Lectioni : Euen when wee be at home , let vs bestowe our time in readinge the Scriptures .

Origen saithe , Vtinam omnes faceremus illud , quod Scriptum est , Scrutamini Scripturas : Woulde God wee woulde al doo , accordingely as it is written , Searche the Scriptures . Origen . in Esatam , Homil. 2.

But ye saie , wee haue misreported bothe Chrysostome , and Origen . For they exhorte not the people ( as you saie ) to reason of Diuine maters emonge them selues , specially the Husbandes with their Wiues , &c. Whether of vs bothe maketh truer reporte , let vs be tried by Chrysostome . Chrysost. in Iohan . Homil. 2. Chrysostom . in Matth. Homi. 78. Thus he saithe , Neque in hoc tantùm consessu , sed domi quoque , Vir cum Vxore , Pater cum Filio , inuicem de his frequenter loquantur : & vltrò , citroque suam & ferant , & inquirant sententiam : Velintque hanc probarissimam inducere consuetudinem : Hearken not hereto onely here in the Churche , but also at home , let the Husbande with the Wife , let the Father with the Childe , talke togeather of these Maters : and , bothe to , and fro , let them bothe enquire , and geeue theire Iudgementes : And , woulde God they woulde beginne this good Custome .

Here haue you , M. Hardinge , the Husbande communinge of Diuine maters with his Wife : and the Father with his Childe . Therefore so vnaduisedly to saie , wée haue misreported this Holy Father , it was of your parte a misreporte .

Likewise S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . in Episit . ad Coloss. Ca. 3. In illud : Verbum Dei habitet in vobis . Hieronym . in psalm . 133. Hic ostenditur , verbum Christi , non suffiele●ter , sed abundanter , etiam Laicos habere debere : & docere se inuicem , vel monere : Here wee are ought , that euen the Laie menue oughte to haue the Woorde of God , not onely sufficiently , but also obundantly : and one to instructe , and to warne an other , Againe he saithe , Solent & Viri , solent & Monachi , solent & Mulierculae hoc inter se habere certamen , vt plures ediscant Scripturas : Bothe Maried menne , and Monkes , and Wiues , commonly haue this contention emonge themselues , who maie learne moste Scriptures .

To conclude , Theodoretus De Corrigen . Graecor . affectib . li. 5. Theodoretus saithe thus , Passim videas nostra dogmata non ab ijs solùm tenèri &c. Ye maie commonly see , that our Doctrine is knowen , not onely of them , that are the Doctours of the Churche , and the Maisters of the people , but also euen of the Tailers , and Smithes , and Weauers , and of al Artificers : Yea , and further also of Weemen : and that , not onely of them , that be Learned , but also of Labouringe Weemen , and Sewsters , and Seruantes , and Handemaìdes . Neither onely the Citizens , De Diuina Trinitate , rerumque omnium Creatione dissertantes . but also the Countriefolkes doo very wel vnderstande the same . Yee maie finde , yea , euen the very Dichers , and Deluers , and Cowheardes , and Gardiners Disputinge of the Holy Trinitie , and of the Creation of al thinges .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 4. & 5.

The Auncient Fathers , Cypria , Epis. 11. Lib. 1. Cyprian , Epiphanius , and Hierome saie , for one , who perchaunce hathe made a Vowe , Epiphan. contra Apostolicos , haeres. 61. to leade a sole life , and afterwarde liueth vnchastely , and cannot quenche the flames of luste , Hieronym . ad Demetriadem . August . De Bono viduita . Ca. 10. it is better to marrie a Wife , and to liue honestly in wedlocke . And the Olde Father Augustine iudgeth , the selfe same Mariage to be good & perfite , & that it ought not to be broken againe . These menne , if a man haue once bounde him selfe by a Vowe , though afterwarde he burne , keepe queanes , and defile him selfe with neuer so sinful , and desperate a life , yet they suffer not that persone to marrie a Wife : or , if he chaunce to marrie , they allowe it not for Marriage . And they commonly teache , It is mutche better , and more Godly to keepe a Concubine , or an Harlotte , then to liue in that kinde of Marriage .

The Olde Father S. Augustine complained of the Multitude of vaine Ceremonies , Augustin . ad Ianuar . Epist. 118. wherewith he euen then sawe mens mindes and Consciences ouercharged : These menne , as though God regarded nothinge els but their Ceremonies , haue so out of measure increased them , that there is now almoste none other thinge leafte in their Churches , and places of praier .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Al that M. Hardinge hath here to saie , In the 2. Darte . 8. Chapter , 1. Diuision : and , 2. Parte . 17. Chap. 1. Diuision . hathe benne bothe alleged , and also fully answeared before in a place more conueniente .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 5.

Againe , that Olde Father S. Augustine denieth it to be lawful for a Monke , to spende his time slouthfully in Idlenesse , & , vnder a pretensed , and countrefeite Holinesse , to liue al vpon others . And who so thus liueth , the Olde Father Apollonius likeneth him to a Theefe . These menne haue ( I wote not whether to name them Droues , or Heardes of Monkes ) who for al that they doo nothinge , nor yet once intende to beare any shewe of Holinesse , yet liue they not onely vpon others , but also riot lauishly of other folkes laboures .

M. Hardinge .

* * But S. Augustine calleth it woorse then Idlenesse . Wee doo not mainteine , that a Monke shoulde liue idly . But wee reproue you for accountinge the Seruice of God Idlenesse . Neither is that the thinge onely whiche ye can alleage in Defence of that your Brethren haue donne to Monasteries in the Countries where your Gospel proceedeth . For ye haue remoued not onely suche Monkes as were proued idle , but all Monkes generally , that would serue God accordinge to that vowe , which they made vnder the ‡ ‡ As though Christes Rule were loste , or were not sufficiente . approued rule of S. Benedicts , S. Augustine , S. Francis , S. Dominicke , or of any other . You saie , we haue Droues and Heardes of Monkes , thereby signifieinge , they are beastes rather then men : Whereas S. Augustine calleth them Seruos Dei , the Seruantes of God , in that very woorke , whiche you alleage .

Sith that our Monkes ( I meane all religious men ) serued the Aulter , and were appointed to Preach , Minister the Sacramentes , and bestowe their time in Praier for their owne infirmities , and for the Sinnes of the people : * * Vntruthe , plaine contrarie to S. Augustine . by the doctrine of S. Augustine , De opere Monachor . Cap. ar. they are not bounde to labour , as they , who for so winge spirituall thinges to the behofe of others , may reape their temporall thinges to their owne necessary sustenance .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Monkes , ye saie , be Goddes Seruantes : and Monkes life is the Seruice of God . And herein ye vse sutche earnest talke , August . De Opere Monachor . Ca. 12. as though , if the whole generation of Monkes were remoued , God should sit without Seruice . In deede S. Augustine shewinge vs , August . De Sermone Domi. in Monte. what good Seruice the Monkes of his time did vnto God , Eodem loco . Augustin . De Opere Monachor . Ca 22. saithe thus : Isti non Deo seruiunt , sed suo ventri : These Monkes serue not God : they serue their bellies . Againe he saithe , lactantia ●ò est periculosior , quò sub nomine ●eruitutis Dei decipit : Hypocrisie , or vountinge of Holinesse is the more dangerous , for that it deceiueth vs vnder the name of Goddes Seruice . Againe he saithe , Fallit dolosa imagine Sanctitatis : It deceiueth vs by the deceiteful countenance , or Image of Holinesse● Againe , touchinge these Monkes , he saith , Non apparet , vtrùm ex proposito Seruitutis Dei venerint , an vitam inopem , & laboriosam fugientes , vacui pascì , & vestirl voluerint : Wee cannot tel , whether they became Monkes for pourpose to serue God , or els beinge weary of their poore , Monkes . Goddes Seruice . and paineful Life , were rather desirous to be feadde , and clothed dooinge nothinge . And therefore he calleth the Almouse , that thei geatte , Sumptus lucrosae egestatis : Augustin . De Opere Mona●hor . Ca. 28. & Simulatae pretium Sanctitatis : The charges of gaineful pouertie : and the price of feined Holinesse . Againe he saithe , Venalem circumferunt Hypocrisim : They carrie their Hypocrisie aboute to sale .

S. Hilarie speakinge of the same kinde of Holy People , Augustin . De Opere Monachor . Ca. 31. saith thus , Conuiuia sub obtentu Religionis sumptuosa sectantur . Hilari . in psalmum . 52. Apothecas suas inutili Religiosorum obsequio defendunt : de quibus Scriptum est , Comedentes domos viduarum . Etiamsi Dominum se credant inuocare , tamen audient , quod est in Euangelio , Scimus quia peccatores Deus non audit : Vnder the colour of Holinesse , they seeke for deinty and costely fare : They maineteine their stoarehouses by the vnprofitable seruice of Religious people : Matthae . 23. of whome it is written , They deuoure vp poore Widowes houses . Although thei thinke , they serue God , yet the same answeare shal be made them , that is written in the Gospel , Iohn . 9. Wee knowe that God geeueth no eare to Sinners . Vpon these woordes of the Gospel , Luke . 19. Selle al , that thou haste , and geeue it to the poore , and comme , and folowe mee , Matthae . 18. Your very Ordinarie Glose saithe thus , Bene operando : non mendicando : Folowe me in wel dooinge : nor in begginge .

Wee graunte , the Seruice of God maie not rightly be called Idlenesse . But what if S. Bernarde saíe of your Monkes , Bernardus in Cantica Cantl . Hieronym . ad Eustochium . Serui Christi , seruiunt Antichristo : They pretende Christes Seruice , and serue Antichriste . For where did God euer require you to doo sutche Seruice ? S. Hierome saithe of them , In statu seruili , & abiectionis esse abhorrent . Laborare recusant prae pigritia : Mendicare erubescunt validi : quia nihil daretur eis : They are lothe to be abiectes , and in seruile state . For Idlenesse they wil not laboure : And to begge they are asbamed . For , beinge valiaunt , and lusty people , noman woulde geue them any thinge . Augustin . De Opere Monachor . Ca 22. Likewise saithe S. Augustine , Tanquam Conseruatricem Euangelij praedicant pigritiem : Augustin . eodem Capite . They speake mutche of their Idlenesse , as if it were the Keepe , and Castle of the Gospel . Againe he faithe , Contingit eis , quod in viduis iunioribus indisciplinatis cauendum Apostolus dicit : Simul & otiosae esse discunt : non solùm autem o tiosae , sed & curiosae , & verbosae , loquentes quae non oportet : The same thinge happeneth vnto them , that S. Paule speaketh of yonge Widowes liuinge out of order : They learne to be idle : and not onely idle , but also curtous , and ful of woordes , speakinge su●che thinges , as are not meete . Thus yée sée , M. Hardinge , that this pretense , and coloure of Goddes Seruice hathe oftentimes of the Anciente Fathers benne called Idlenesse .

Ye saie , Monkes now Serue the Aultare , and Minister Sacramentes : and therefore are not bounde to Bodily laboure . This is a faire coloure to shadowe their Idlenesse . For who euer hade Monkes to Serue the Aultare : or gaue them Authoritie to Minister Sacramentes ? What Doctour ? What Father ? What Anciente Councel ? In olde times it was not lawful for a Monke to be a Prieste . S. Gregorie saithe , Nemo potest Ecclesiasticis Officijs deseruire , 16. Quaestion . 1. Nemo . & in Monastica Regula ordinatè persistere : No man can serue the Ecclesiastical Office , and orderly keepe the Rule of Monkerie . 16. Quaestion 1. Monachus . And S. Hierome saithe , 16 Quast . 1. Alia causa . Monachus , non Docentis , sed Plangentis habet officium : A Monkes office is , not to Preache , but to Mourne . Glossa . Againe he saithe , Alia causa est Monachi , alia Clerici : Clerici Oues pascunt : Ego Pascor : The state of a Monke is one thinge , and the state of a Prieste is an other . Priestes Feede the Flocke : I ( beinge a Monke ) muste be fedde . Whereupon the Glose saithe , Ego Pascor Sacramentis ipsorum : I am fedde with the Sacramentes of the Priestes . Whereby it is euidente , that the Monke him selfe had no Authoritie , to Minister Sacramentes , no not so mutche as priuately to him selfe . But , touchinge Bodily laboure , S. Hierome saithe , Hieronymus ad Rusticum : Et in vita Hilarionis . This was holden as a Lawe emonge the Monkes in Aegypte , that who so woulde not laboure , shoulde not eate .

And S. Augustine saithe , Monkes . Bodily laboure . as it is alleged in his name , Nihil Dei Seruis peius est otiositate . Augustin . ad Fratres in Eremo . Sermo . 1. Augustin . De Opere Monac●oar . Ca. 23. Operentur ergo in nomine Domini : Vnto the Seruantes of God there is nothinge woorse then Idlenesse . Let them woorke therefore in the name of our Lorde .

Of sutche Idle Monkes S. Augustine saith , Isti manus otiosas , & repositoria plena habere volunt : These Monkes wil haue Idle handes , and ful Cellers . A learned Father was woonte to saie , by the reporte of Socrates , A Monke , that labo●reth not with his handes , maie be resembled vnto a Theefe . S. Bernarde saithe , Restat , vt sint in laboribus Daemonum , qui in laboribus hominum non fuerunt : They muste needes be in the trauailes of Diuels , Historia Tripartita , Lib. 8. Ca. 1. Bernardus in Psalm. 72. Augustin . De Opere Monachor . Ca. 28. that were not in the trauailes of menne .

Of these S. Augustine saithe , Diabolus tam multos Hypocritas sub habitu Monachorum vsquequaque dispersit : Sutche a number of Hypocrites hath the Diuel scattered abroade euery where , vnder the coloure of Monkes .

The firste Suppressours of Monasteries within this Realme , in our memorie , were twoo of your déerest frendes , Cardinal Woulsee , & Doctoure Fisher , the Bishop of Rochester : Theodoretus , Lib. 4. Cap. 11. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 either of them wel warranted thereto by the Authoritie of the Pope . Longe before that time , the Godly Learned Bishop Letoius ouerthrewe , and burnte the Messalians Monasteries , and saide they were Dennes of Theeues : and , as Theodoretus reporteth , chased the Wouues awaie from the Folde .

Of late yéeres , sundrie of the Cardinalles of Rome , emongest whome also was Cardinal Poole , beinge specially appointed in Commission by Pope Paulus 3. to viewe the disorders , and deformities of the Churche , returned their answeare in this sorte : Concil. Tomo . 3. Con. Delectorum Cardinali . Pag. 822. Alius abusus corrigendus est in Ordinibus Religiosorum : quod adeo multi deformati sunt , vt magno sint scandalo Saecularibus , exemplo'que plurimum noceant . Conuentuales ordines abolendos esse putamus omnes : An other Abuse there is to be Reformed in the Orders of Monkes , and Freers . For many of them are so vile , that they are a shame vnto the Se●●lares : and with their example doo mutche il . As for Conuentual orders , wee thinke it good , they be al abolished .

This , M. Hardinge , was the Iudgemente of your owne frendes . And therefore ye haue the lesse cause to be offended with the suppressinge of Abbies . For your owne déere Catholique Fathers partely haue suppressed them them selues , & partely haue consented vnto the same . Concil. Tom. 2. Pag. 1000. Operis Tripart . Li. 3. Cap. 3. In the Booke called Opus Tripartitum , ioined vnto the Councel of Laterane , it is written thus : Totus ferè Mundus obloquitur , & Scandalizatur de tanta multitudine Religiosorum Pauperum , qui introierunt in Mundum : Welneare the whole worlde crieth againste , and is offended for so greate a multitude of begginge Monkes , and Freeres , that are entred into the Worlde .

Therefore was this Decrée published in the Councel of Laterane , Concil. Lateran . Sub Innocen . 3. Ca. 13. Ne nimia Religiosorum diuersitas grauen in Ecclesiam Dei offensionem inducat , firmiter prohibemus , ne quis de coetero Nouam Religionem inueniat : Leste ouer greate diuersitie of Religious folke bringe greate offense into the Churche of God , wee doo earnestly forbidde , that from hencefoorthe no man diuise any Newe Religion . Damasus , speakinge of the order of them , Dist 68. Chorepiscopi . that were called Chorepiscopi , saithe thus , Vnde iste Tertius Ordo processerit , ignoramus : & quod ratione caret , extirpare necesse est : From whence this Thirde Order is comme , wee cannot tel . And the thinge that wanteth reason , muste needes be taken vp by the rootes .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 6.

The Olde Councel at Rome decreed , Concil. Rom. ca. 3. that no man should comme to the Seruice saide by a Prieste wel knowen to keepe a Concubine . These menne let Concubines to ferme to their Priestes , and yet constreigne men by force , A Prieste keepinge a Concubine againste theire wil , to heare theire cursed paltry Seruice .

M. Hardinge .

‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For it is easy to be founde . We finde no sutche Canon in the olde Romaine Councels . Dist 25. Ca. Nullus . Your allegations noted in the margent be false for the more parte , as your Doctrine is . Yet finde we that Nicolaus and Alexander Popes haue willed no man to heare the Masse of that Prieste , whom he knoweth vndoubtedly to kepe a Concubin● . * * Sutche wise menne be the Proctours of filthinesse . But wise men in the Lawe thinke onely that to be an vndoubted knowledge , when either the iudge hath by open sentence published sutche a man to kepe a Concubine , or the facte it selfe is notorious .

‡ ‡ Vntruthe , notorious , & manifeste to the worlde . The B. of Argentine hath a Florene by the yeere of euery Prieste , that keepeth a Concubine : and if shee beare a childe , he hathe foure . Whereas you saie , we let Concubines out to ferme to our Priestes , it is meete for you to saie it , because it is false and slaunderous . * * Vntruthe . Reade the Answeare . Neither was euer any man , or at this daie is driuen to heare his Masse , who kepeth a Concubine . For if he wil take vpon him to proue any Prieste to kepe a Concubine , him selfe non beinge so infamous , as he maie not stande in iudgemente , it is certaine , he shal be hearde . If he cannot proue it , then is not he out of doubte by order of Lawe , that this Prieste kepeth a Concubine , and therefore he is bounde , as other Christian people be , to heare his Masse . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Pope Hildebrande saithe , Benedictio eorum vertitur in maledictionem . Concit . Roman . sub Nicolao . 1. Concil. To. 2. pa. 795. Anno , 880. Zacharias pp. in Epist. ad Bonifa . Dis. 40. Non nos , In Glossa . Whiche is no sacrilege as your sacrilegious heart thinketh , and blasphemous tonge vttereth , but the blessed and holy sacrifice , whiche Christe made at his laste Supper .

The B. of Sarisburie .

If it had pleased you , better to haue perused your Bookes , ye mought soone haue found these selfe same woordes in the Councel of Rome , holden there vnder Pope Nicolas the First : Whiche , although it be not so olde , as maie be compared with the Ancient Fathers Councelles , yet it is elder then somme partes , & branches of your Newe Religion . To like pourpose writeth Pope Zacharie , Quis sapiens iudicabit , eos esse Sacerdotes , qui nec à Fornicationibus abstinent ? What wise man wil recken them to be Priestes , that absteine not so mutche as from Fornication ? If no wise man can iudge them to be Priestes , what man then is he , that wil authorize them to Minister Sacramentes ?

Nowe of the other side , M. Hardinge , consider you the Common , and ordinarie practise of your Churche of Rome . Firste , touchinge the Pope him selfe , your Glose saithe , Facta Papae excusantur , vt Adulterium Jacob : The Popes dooinges ( or Aduouteries ) are excused , as the Aduouterie of Jacob. And againe , Communiter dicitur , quo'd pro Simplici Fornicatione quis deponi non debet : cùm pauci sine illo vitio inueniantur : It is commonly saide , that a man maie not be deposed , or depriued for Simple Fornication : Dist. 81. Maximianus , In Gloss . Dist 32. Nullus . For as mutche as fewe ( Priestes ) be founde without that faulte .

Againe , whereas the woordes of the Decree are these , Nullus audiat Missam Presbyte● , quem scit Concubinam indubitanter habere : Let noman heare the Masse of that ●neste , whom he vndoubtedly knoweth to keepe a Concubine , The Close vpon the same saithe thus , Hic Canon quandoque fuit latae Sententiae : Sed hodiè non est : This Decree in olde times stoode as a ruled case : but now is it not so . Ideo licet notoria sit Fornicatio , tamen non est propter eam abstinendum ab officijs Presbyterorum : And therefore , although the Fornication be notoriously knowen , yet maie wee not therefore refraine from the Seruice of the Prieste .

Hereunto very wel agréethe the Glose vpon Othoes Legantines : De Concubinis Clericor . remouendis . Licet ad profligandum . Quid ergo si Sacerdos mueniatur coire cum muliere ? Respondeo : Adhuc dicitur occultum : nec propter hoc debet cum vitare in publico , nisi aliter Conuincatur : What if a man find the Prieste in the m●uoure with a woman ? I answeare : Al that notwithstandinge , the faulte is pr●●e . Neither maie a man therefore aouid the Priestes Seruice , onlesse he be otherwise co●●cted .

And againe , in the same Glose vpon these woordes , Qui publicè detinet Concubinas : it is noted thus , Glossa in cundem titulum . Tu dic Publicè , quando multitudini se patere non expauet . Secùs ergo , si secretè intra domum propriam , vel alienam detineat hanc Concubinam . Nam tunc poenam huius Constitutionis non incurret . A Prieste keepinge a Concubine Dom us enim rem secretam , non aunt publicam denotat : By this word Openly , vnderstand thou , If he be not afraide , leste the world espie him . Therefore it is otherwise , if he keepe the same Concubine secretely , whether it be in his owne house , or in somme other mannes . For then he is not within the daunger of this Lawe . For a house betokeneth a thinge to be Secrete , and not open .

By this fauourable , and gentle Construction , onlesse the Prieste kéepe his woman openly in the Marketplace , he is without al daunger of Lawes , and Canons : and wee maie not refraine to heare his Seruice .

It is no Sacrilege , you saie , but the Blessed , and Holy Sacrifice . Hereto I maie answeare with the woordes of S. Augustine : Augusti De Ciuitat . Li. 2. Ca 4. Quae sunt Sacrilegia , si illa erant Sacra ? Aut quae Inquinatio , si illa Lauatio ? What is Sacrilege , if this be a Sacrifice ? Or , what is staininge , if this be wasshinge ? Verily your owne Pope Hildebrande hereof writeth thus : Dist. 81. Si qui. Imperamus vobis , ne eorum Officia , Orationes , & Cu●tus audiatis Quia Benedictio ●orum vertitur in Maledictionem , & Oratio in Peccatum : Testante Domino per Propheram , Maledicam Benedictionibus vestris . Qui vero huic Saluberrimo praecepto obedire noluerint , Idololatriae poenam incurrent : Wee commaunde you , that you heare neither theire Offices , nor thire Praiers , nor theire Seruice . For theire Blessinge is turned into Cursinge , and theire Praier into Sinne : As the Lorde him selfe witnesseth by the Prophete : I wil curse your Blessinges , saithe the Lorde . And who so euer wil not obeie this wholesome Commaundemente , he shal fal into the paine of Idolatrie . Iudge yee nowe , M. Hardinge , whether this be Sacrilege , as wée saie : or , as you saie , a Blessed , and an Holy Sacrifice .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 7.

The Olde Canons of the Apostles commaunde , that Bishop to be remoued from his Office , whiche wil bothe supplie the place of a Ciuil Magistrate , and also of an Ecclesiastical person . These menne for al that , bothe doo , and wil needes serue bothe places . Nay rather , the one office , whiche they ought chiefely to execute , they once touche not : and yet no body commaundeth them to be displaced .

M. Hardinge .

If we ought to sticke at any one certaine worldely busines , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe impudente aboue measure . For it was not vnsemely for Christes Apostles to be married . whiche maie seme vnsemely for a Bishop or a Priest , as too base for his dignitie , and too much hinderance to his vocation , vndoubtedly mariage is of that sorte . 1. Cor. 7. Whom maie we better credite for this case , then S. Paule ? * * S. Paule speaketh thus , not only of Priestes , but also of euery priuate Christian man . He that is without a wife ( saith he ) is careful for the thinges that be of our Lorde , howe he maie please God . But he that is coupled with a wife , is careful about the thinges , whiche are of the worlde , and is diuided .

But with our fieashely Ministers , this busines is not fleashely , and worldly at al , but altogeather spiritual , bicause theire spirit is wholly occupied therein .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Christe thought so litle hinderance to be in Marriage towardes the Preaching of the Gospel , Ambro. 2. Cor. 11. that of his twelue Apostles he chose eleuen , that were married . So S. Ambrose saithe , as it is alleged before : Apostoli omnes , exceptis Iohanne , & Paulo , Vxores habuerunt : Al the Apostles had Wines , sauinge onely S. Iohn , and S. Paule .

But ye saie , With our fleashely Ministers ▪ this businesse is not fleashely , but altogeather Spiritual : bicause : theire Sprite is wholy occupied therein . It pitieth me , M. Hardinge , to see you so vainely to be stowe your Spiritual Cogitations . Matrimonie is Goddes ordinance . Matrimonie chaste , and pure . God neuer ordeined Man to liue in villanie , and filthinesse . S. Paule saithe , Hebrae . 13. Matrimonie is honourable in al menne ( as wel in Priestes , as in others ) and the bedde vndefiled . But Aduouterers , and Fornicatours the Lorde him selfe wil iudge . Roman. 8. And againe , writinge vnto the Married people of Rome , he saithe , Vos non estis in Carne , sed in Spiritu : You are not in the Fleashe , but in the Sprite . They were Married , and liued in the Lawes of Marriage : Yet S. Paule saithe , They were not in the Fleashe , but in the Sprite .

S. Augustine saithe , August . De Bono Coniugali . Ca. 11 Origen . in Epist. ad Roma . Ca ▪ 12. Sancta sunt etiam Corpora Coniugatorum , Fidem sibi , & Domino seruantium : The Bodies of married people , keeping faith bothe to them selues , did to the Lorde , ●●e Cleane , and Holy . Origen saith , Non solum virgines , aut Contine●tes , offerunt Copora sua Hostiam Sanctam : Not onely Virgins , or others that liue in Single Life ( but also Married folkes ) offer vp theire Bodies a Holy Sacrifice . Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom ad Hebrae . Hom. 57. Sanctificationem Paulus vocat Pudicitiam , & Temperantiam Coniugalem : The honeste Chastitie , and Temperance , that is bitweene Man , and Wife , S. Paule calleth Holinesse . And againe , Carent Culpa Nuptiae , nec à Virtute quicquam prohibent● Marriage is voide of faulte : and is no hinderance vnto vertue .

Hereof wée haue spoken before more at large . But touchinge the Chaste life of your Spiritual Cleregie , M. Hardinge , as sundrie your owne frendes haue recorded , and as the whole worlde is wel hable to iudge , it is nothinge els , but a Spiritual filthinesse .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 8.

The Olde Councel of Gangra commaundeth , that none shoulde make sutche difference bitweene an Vnmarried Prieste , and a Married Prieste , as to thinke the one more holy , then the other for Single Lifes sake . These menne put sutche a difference bitweene them , that they streight waie thinke al theire Holy Seruice to be defiled , if it be donne by a good , and honest man , that hath a Wife .

M. Hardinge .

It was not for your pourpose , Sirs , to vse true dealinge , and to alleage the woordes as they are in that olde Councel . For they speake of an * * Vntruthe , fonde , and peeui●he . For this woorde , External , is not once named in al that Councel . external Sacrifice , ‡ ‡ The Councel of Gangra neuer once named the Masse . whiche the Churche calleth the Masse . The same it behoued you to dissemble , C●● . 4. leste ye bewraied your cause . The woordes be these : If any man make a difference of a Prieste , who hath benne married , is though when he sacrificeth , a man might not communicate with his oblation , be he accursed . Those fathers speake euidently of a Prieste , who hath sometime ben maried , that is to saie , before his Priesthode . * * Vntruthe so impudente , that I marueile , M. Hardinge can reporte it without blussinge . Chrysost. ad Hebrae . Homil. 17. For after Priesthode , it was neuer bearde sithens the time of Christe , that any Prieste might marie by the Lawe either of the Greeke , or of the Latine Churche . We therefore condemne the mariages of Priestes , whiche be made after the takinge of holy orders , and saie , that he is no good and honeste man , but an incestuous Aduouterer , that marieth afterwarde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

To answeare al your trifles , M. Hardinge , it were too longe . Wée refuse not the names of Oblation , or Sacrifice . Wée knowe , that the Holy Ministration is Commonly so called by the Aunciente Fathers : For that , as Chrysostome saith , it is the Memorie , the Remembrance , the Samplare , the Token of that one Sacrifice , that Christe once offered in his Body vpon the Crosse . Hoc Sacrificium exēplarilliusest . Magis Recordationem Sacrifici● operamu● . Howe be it , the reason hereof , that ye would séeme to wreast out of the Greeke woorde , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is very simple , and bewraieth in you , either wante of skil , or greate corruption . For , beinge learned in the Greeke tongue , ye muste néedes knowe , that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth not a Sacrifice , Mariage in Priesthoode . but a Ministerie , or publike Seruice . Plutarchus saithe thus , Lictores , quasi Litores dicebantur , quo'd essent 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Hereby it appeareth , Plutarchus in Romulo . Alexander ab Alexandro . Pachymeres : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Roman 13. Actor . 13. Chrysost in Acta Homil. 27. that the Common Hangeman of the Cittie was called 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and his office 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Whiche , I trowe , M. Hardinge , yee would not haue to be called a Sacrificer , & a Sacrifice . Pachymeres , in his Annotations vpon Dionysius . saith thus : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , appellat Diaconos , aut eos , qui nunc Hypodiaconi appellantur : He c●lleth them , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that are called Deacons , or Subdeacons , S. Paule , speaking of Kinges , & Ciuile Princes , saith , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , aut Ministri Dei sun● I recken ye wil not saie , that either Deacons , or Subdeacons , or Kinges , or Princes had Authoritie to Minister the Holy Communion , or , as you saie , to offer vp the Daily Sacrifice . Where as S. Luke saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Ministrantibus illis ; Chrysostome demaundeth this question , Quid est Ministrantibus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 He answeareth , Praedicantibus . Whereby it appeareth , that the Apostles Sacrificinge , was theire preachinge . It had benne ouer mutche va●itie , to note theis● thinges , had not your vaine quarrel geuen the occasion . Certainely there is no mention in the said Councel of Gangra either of your Masse , or of your External Sacrifice .

After Priesthood , ye saie , it was neuer heard sithence the time of Christe , that any Prieste might Marrie by the Lawe , either of the Greeke , or of the Latine Churche . This warrant were vndoubtedly true , if euery your woord were a Gospel . But what if your owne Glose , that is to saie , the very Ground , & mother of your Diuinitie , stand against you , & saie , Ye warrante vnwisely , or , if that mislike you , vnaduisedly , ye knowe not what ? Verily , vpon the Popes owne Decrees ye shal finde it noted thus : Dist 31. Aliter : In Glossa . Nicephorus , Li. 10. a. 10. Nicephor . Li. 9. Ca. 17. Multi ex hac Litera dixerunt● qu●d Orientales possunt contrahere in Sacris Ordinibus ? Of these woordes many haue geathered , that the Priestes of the Easte Churche maie marrie , being within Holy Orders . Nicephorus saith , that Eupsychius , being a Prieste at Cesaria in Cappadocia married a Wife a litle before that he was Martyred . The like he séemeth to write of Apollinaris the Elder , that beinge a Prieste , Married a Wife at Laodicea .

In the Councel holden at Ancyra there is a Canon written thus , Diaconi , quicunque ordinantur , Concil. Ancyranum . Canon . 9. si in ipsa Ordinatione protestati sunt , & dixerunt , velle se coniugio copulari , quia sic manere non possunt , hi , si postmodùm vxores duxerint , in Ministerio maneant , proptereà qu●d ●is Episcopus licentiam dederit : Deacons , that receiue orders , if at the time of theire admiss●on , they make protestation , and saie , they wil be married , for that they cannot otherwise continewe , if they afterwarde Marrie , let them remaine in the Minist●●● : for that the Bishop hath already dispensed with them .

Chrysostome , Chrys. in Epist 1. ad Tim. Hom. 〈◊〉 . speaking of the Marriage of Bishoppes , saithe thus , Quamuis Nup●ae plurimum difficultatis in se habeant , ita tamen Assumi possunt , vt perfectiori vit●●●●pedimento non sint : Notwithstanding Marriage haue in it mutche trouble , yet so it maie be Taken , that it shal be no hinderance to perfite life . He saith , Marriage maie be Taken , or chosen : Erasmus Contra Bedam . Pag. 197. Cornel Agrippa contra Louanien . Artic. 18 Dist. 8 4 Ci●n in prae●ertio . In Glo●●a . Cat●●n in 〈◊〉 . And he speaketh namely of the Marriage of Priestes , & Bishoppes .

Erasmus saithe , The Priestes of the Greeke Churche this daie , notwithstanding theire Orders , Marrie Wiues . The like writeth Cornelius Agrippa against the Louanians . Your owne Glose vpon y● Decrees ▪ as I haue alleged before , noteth thus , Dicunt qu●d olim Sacerdotes poterant contrahere , ante Siricium : Thei saie , that in olde times , before Pope Siricius , it was Laweful for Priestes , to contracte Matrimonie .

Likewise Cardinal Cai●tane saith , Nec ratione , nec Authoritate probari potest , qu●d , absolut● loquendo , Sacerdos peccet , contrahendo Matrimonium : It cannot be proued , neither by Reason , nor by Authoritie , speakinge absolutely , that a Prieste offendeth God in Ma●●●nge a Wife . So likewise saithe Anselmus in a Dialogue bitwéene the Maister , and the Scholare , touchinge these maters : Defideramus certifica●i tua Sotione super Vulgari in toto Orbe quaestione , Anselm . In Dialog. Inquisitione Prima . quae ab omnibus pené quotidié ventilatur , & adhuc lis indiscussa celatur , Scilicer , An liceat Presbyteris , post acceptum ordinem Vxores ducere : Wee are desirous by your Answeare to be certified , aboute this Common question , that is nowe tossed through the worlde , and as yet lieth vndiscussed , I meane , whether a Prieste , beinge within Orders , maie Marrie a Wife . Hereby it appeareth , that in the time of Anselmus , whiche was aboue a thousande yéeres after Christe , this mater laie in question , and was not yet discussed .

If ye knewe these thinges before , M. Hardinge , ye were to blame , to dissemble them : if ye knewe them not , ye were to blame to controlle them . I doubt not , but it maie appeare by these fewe , that sithen●e the time of Christes Resurrection , sundrie Priestes , beinge within Holy Orders , haue married Wiues : and that , not onely in the Gréeke Churche , but also in the Churche of Rome .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 9.

The Auncient Emperoure Iustinian commaunded , In Nouel . Constit . 123. that in the Holy Administration , al thinges should be pronounced with a cleare , lowde , & treatable voice , that the people might receiue somme fruite thereby . These menne , leste the people should vnderstand them , numble vp al theire Seruice , not onely with a drowned , & hollow voice , but also in a strange , and Barbarous tongue .

M. Hardinge .

Iustinian the Emperour willeth praiers at the holy oblation , ( which these Defenders here translate administration , as beinge ashamed of theire owne Authore , because they holde * * Vntruthe , fonde , and peeuishe For Iustinian speaketh not of any Sacrifice of the Mass . againste the sacrifice of the Masse ) to be made not in silence , but with an audible voice . Not meaninge as though praiers made in silence were vnfruitful to the people , as these men woulde make vs beleue . And therefore they corrupt his woordes , as what thinge do they not corrupt , that commeth vnder theire handes ? They saie Iustinian made that Lawe , Vt fructus ex ea re aliquis ad populum redire posset , that somme fruit might come thereof to the people , In nouell . Constitut . ●3 . as who shoulde saie , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For S. Augustine saithe , Quid prodest loquutionis integritas , quam non sequitur intellectus audientis . no fruite were like to come , if praier were made in silence . But what saithe Iustinian ? His woordes be , Quó maiore exinde deuotione in depromendis Domini Dei laudibus audientium animi efferantur . To th intent the mindes of the hearers maie thereby with the more deuotion be lifted vp in settinge forth the praises of our Lorde God . He saithe , that the lowde voice helpeth to more deuotion , he saieth not , to some fruit , but , with more deuotion ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , notorious , & contrarie to theire owne principal position , Ignorance is the Mother of deuotion . Some fruit is alwaies had euen by secrete praier , and more fruit sometime , then by lowde praier .

Two faultes then are committed , or rather two lies made in Iustinians woordes : one , that for oblation , thei tourned administration , whiche falsehede M. Iewel vseth in his printed Sermon , and in his replies to M. D. Cole . Whether he be also gilty of this ? An other fault is , that for more deuotion , they put some fruite . The third lie is , in that they saie , we do whisper al our Seruice , so is the Latine , albeit this good Lady liketh better the terme of mumblinge . * * Vntruthe For M Hard. owne Councelles expresse it by these woordes , Insusurrare , and Murmurare . I wene fewe who haue the sense of hearing ▪ wil saie with them , that the singinge of Psalmes , Hymmes , Epistle , Gospel , Grailes , Offertories , Preface ▪ and sutche like Seruice vsed in the Catholike Churche , is whisperinge , or numblinge . The fourth lie is , where they saie , we do it so , leste the people shoulde vnderstande vs . † † Vntruthe , and a glose contrarie bothe to the texte , and also to the continual practise of the Churche of Graecia . We wishe , that al the people vnderstoode al our praiers . But we thinke it not conuenient , in a common prophane tongue , to vtter high mysteries Therefore we wishe , they would learne the * * Mystical tongue . A Mystical folie of al folies . mystical tongue , and gladly do we teache their children the same . S. Dionyse the Areopagite scholer to S. Paule , teacheth Timothe , and in him al vs , Communicare ea quae vim perficiendi habent , cum ijs , qui perficiunt , to communicate those thinges , whiche haue power to make men perfite , with them , who make men perfite : ‡ that is to saie , to publishe priestly office of Consecration , ( for nothinge maketh vs more perfite ) amonge them onely , who are Priestes , and not amonge others .

Laste of al the fifth lie is to saie , Praier in a strange to tonge . that we pronounce our seruice , and our mysteries in a barbarous tonge . * * A 〈◊〉 For S. Paule saithe . The tongue is Barbarous , that is not knowen . As though the Latine tongue were barbarous , and not rather euery vulgare tongue . That tongue is moste barbarous , whiche is moste vsed of the vulgare sorte , moste priuate ? moste vnknowen in respecte of al ‡ ‡ A solemne Decree without sense . When Englande commeth to haue a seruice of theire owne , a tongue of their owne in Churches , and hath a Churche of theire owne beside the whole , then haue they loste theire parte with the Catholike Churche , whereunto God restoare it againe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O M. Harding , wée corrupte not sutche thinges , as comme vnder our handes . The worlde séethe , that is your Ordinarie , and peculiare practise : It is not oures . Yée dubbe vs bothe here , and elswhere , with your lies vpon lies . Sutche is the Ciuilitie , and Courtesie of your speache . Yet hitherto wée haue not redubbed you with any one lie . Sobrietie , and modestie rather becommeth them , that speake of God .

Firste , Iustinian . Impe. Authen . Constit . 123 : Wee commaunde al Bishoppes , and Priestes to Minister the Holy Oblation . &c. not vnder silence , but with a lowd voice , &c. that the hartes of the Hearers maie be sturred to more deuotion , &c. ye saie , Wee haue corrupted Iustinians woordes . And yet , yée knowe , wée alleged onely Iustinians meaning , and otherwise not one of al his woordes . Ye saie , Iustinian meante not , as though praiers made i● silence were vnfruiteful to the people . For somme Fruite , ye saie , there is al waies had euen by secrete , and vnknowen Praier : But what fruite , or howe mutche , or howe ye knowe it , or can assuere it , ye spare to tel vs . Yet S. Augustine saithe , Quid prodest locutionis integritas , quam non sequitur intellectus audientis ? Cùmloquendi omninò nulla fit causa , si , quod loquimur , non intelligunt , propter quos , vt intelligant , loquimur : What profite is there in speache , be it neuer so perfite , if the vnderstandinge of the hearer cannot attaine it ? For there is no cause , why wee should speake at al , if they vnderstande not , what wee speake , for whoes sake we speake , that they maie vnderstande vs . Againe he saithe , Mens mea sine fructu est : Hoc ait , quando id , quod dicitur , non intelligitur : My minde is without fruite : This the Apostle S. Paule saithe , when the thinge , that is spoken , it not perceiued . And againe , Si intellectum mens remoueas , nemo aedificatur audiendo , quod non intelligit : Set aparte the vnderstanding of the Minde : And noman hath fruit , or profite of that thing , that he perceiueth not . Likewise againe he saith , Quid opus est iubilare , & non intelligere iubilationem : vt Vox nostra sola iubilet , Augu. De Doctrina Christiana , Lib. 4. Ca. 10. & Cor non iubilet ? Sonus enim Cordis intellectus est : What needeth vs to singe , if wee vnderstande not , what wee singe : to singe with our voice , and not with our Harte ? For Vnderstandinge is the sounde , or voice of the Harte .

These woordes , August . De Trinitate . Li. 14. Ca. 16. 1. Cor. 14. Whisperinge , and Mumblinge , mislike you mutche . Yet your owne frendes , intreatinge hereof , haue often vsed the same woordes . In your late Councel of Colaine it is written thus , Vt Presbyteri Preces non tantùm Ore Murmurent , August in Genesia ad Literam . Lib. 11. Cap. 8. Aug. in Psal 59. Concil. Colonien . Cap. 5. Anno. 1536 Regino . 2. Concilio Nannet●● . sed etiam Corde Persoluant nunquam à manibus eorum Liber Legis , hoc est , Biblia deponatur : That the Priestes not onely Mumble vp theire Praiers , but also pronouace them from theire hartes , Let the Booke of the Lawe , that is to saie , the Bibl● , neuer be saide from theire handes . Likewise Regino reporteth the woordes of the Councel of Nantes , Ridiculum est , muris , aut parietibus Infusurrare ea , quae ad populum pertinent : It is a preushe thinge , to whisper those thinges to the walles , that pertei●e vnto the people .

Notwithstandinge , whether it be Whisperinge , or Mumblinge , or by what so euer name els it shal please you to cal it , that good Emperours Commaundement , & meaninge was , that ye shoulde so vtter al thinges in the Congregation , Distinctely , Authen . Constitu 123. Augu. in Psal. 18. and Plainely , with lowde , and Open Voice , that the people might vnderstande you , and answeare , Amen . Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Nos , qui in Ecclesia Diuina eloquia cantare didicimus , simul etiam instare debemus , esse quod Scriptum est , Beatus populus , qui intelligit iubilationem . Proinde , Charissimi , quod Consona voce cantauimus , sereno etiam Corde nosse , & tenere debemus : Wee , that haue learned to singe in the Churche the Heauenly woordes of God , muste also endeuoure to be that thing , that is written , Blessed is the people , that vnderstandeth , what they singe . Therefore dearely beloued , that wee haue songe togeather with iuneable voice , we ought also to knowe , and see with pure harte . S. Ambrose , declaringe the Ecclesiastical order of his time , Ambro. Hexamer . Li. 3. Cap. 5. saith thus , Responsorijs Psalmorum , Cantu Virorum , Mulierum , Virginum , Paruulorum , consonus vndarum fragor resultat : With the answearinge of Psalmes , and with the Singinge togeather of Menne , Wemen , Maides , and litle Children , the Churche soundeth , as if it were the dasshinge of the Sea .

To like pourpose Leo saithe , Leo , De leiunio Septimi Mensis , Sermo. 3. Totius Ecclesiae vna est Oratio , & vna Confessio : The whole Churche hath one Praier , and one Confession .

That ye allege out of Dionysius , is vaine , and Childishe , as is the reste of your talke , and quite contrarie to the Authours minde , and therefore not woorthy to be answeared . For Dionysius saith not , as you haue imagined , M. Harding , that the Prieste shoulde talke alone in his Mystical vnknowen Tongue , as a ianglinge Cymbal without sense : but rather telleth you , that , by his order , the Prieste , and the whole People shoulde singe togeather . These be his woordes , Percipiens ipse , Dionysius , Ca. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . & alijs tradens Diuinam Communionem , postremò desinit in Gratiarum actionem , vnà cum tota Ecclesiae multitudine : The Prieste bothe receiuinge him selfe the Holy Communion , and also deliueringe the same vnto others , laste al endeth with thankes geuinge , togeather with al the whole multitude , or Companie of the Churche .

Ye saie , Wee wisshe the people woulde learne the Mystical Latine tongue : and gladly doo wee teache theire Children the same . Ye saie , The Mystical Latine tongue . O vaine man , and more vaine , then vanitie it selfe : Why seeke you so fondely to deceiue Gods people ? Who euer taught you these kindes of Mysteries ? what Scripture ? what Councel ? what Doctoure ? what Father ? Howe knowe you , that the Latine tongue , that euery Childe maie so commonly , and so easily vnderstande , should be so Mystical ? It were a greate Mysterie , to reache the bottome of your Mysteries . S. Paule calleth you , 1. Cor. 4. not the Hiders , or Couchers , but the Dispensers , and Stewardes of Goddes Mysteries . Your Mystical policie is , to leade Goddes people through Myste , and Darkenesse . Ye wisshe , the people woulde learne the Latine tongue , whiche you cal Mystical . No doubte , a woorthy , and a learned wisshe . Ye might as good cheape , & as wel haue wisshed , that al the whole people , of al Countrie , would learne to speake Greeke , & Hebrewe . But your meaninge is , the vntil al the Plowmenne , and Artificers , and Labourers of the Worlde be hable to vnderstande , and to speake your Mystical Latine tongue , thei maie not in any wise he allowed , to vnderstande any parcel of theire Praiers .

Lactantius , Lactan. Lib. 5. Ca. 20. speakinge of the suttle practises , & policies of the Heathens , saithe thus , Hinc Fida Silentia instituta sunt ab hominibus callidis : vt nesciret populus , quid coleret : Therefore trusty silence , and secresie was appointed by suttle , and false faitours : that the people ( stil beinge blinde ) shoulde neuer knowe , what they worshipped .

This is not the Mysterie of the Kingedome of Heauen : Matth. 13. 2. Thess. 2. Apoc. 17. It is rather the Mysterie of iniquitie : The same Mysterie , y● S. Iohn mentioneth in his Reuelations : In Fronte eius Nomen scriptum est , Mysterium : Babylon Magna , Mater Abominationum , & Fornicationum Terrae : A Name was written in her Forehead , a Mysterie : Greate Babylon , the Mother of the Abominations , and of the Fornications of the Eathe . Of these Holy Mysteries , your Latine tongue , as ye haue vsed it , maie wel , and iustely be called Mystical .

S. Hierome saithe of your Fathers in Olde time , Hieron . in Epist. ad ●phes . Cap. 5. Hieronymus ad Theodoram . De Domo Dei Secnam fecere Populorum : Of the House of God they haue mode a stage plaie of the people . And speakinge of the Valentinian Heretiques he saith , Barbaro simplices quosque terrent sono , vt , quod non intelligunt , plùs mirentur : With a Barbarous vnknowen sounde of wordes the● feare the simple , that , what so euer thei vnderstand not , thei maie the more esteme , and haue in reuerence .

But the Latine tongue , ye saie , is not Barbarous : and therein , as your woont is , ye haue noted a woonderful great Lie in our Apologie . Yet vnto S. Paule , that tongue séemeth Barbarous , that is vnknowen vnto the hearer . Thus he saithe , Nisi sciero vim vocis , 1. Cor. 4. ero illi , qui loquitur , Barbarus : & ille , qui loquitur , mihi Barbarus : Onlesse I vnderstande the power , or meaninge of the woordes , I shal be Barbarous to him , that speaketh : and he that speaketh ( in what tongue so euer he speake ) shal be Barbarous vnto me . Artic. 3. Diui. 3. Ludoui . Viues De Traden . Disciplinis , Lib. 3. Fol. 97. Hereof I had occasion to saie somewhat in my Former Replie . S. Augustine saithe , Mallet quisque cum Cane suo versari , quàm cum homine ignotae linguae : Any man woulde rather dwel with his Dogge , then with a man of an vnknowen tongue .

To conclude , ye saie , When Englande commeth to haue a Seruice of theire owne , and a Tongue of theire owne in Churches , then haue they loste theire parte with the Catholique Churche . Here , M. Hardinge , a litle more reason woulde haue geuen somme credite to your woordes . For , as touchinge the Publique Seruice of the Churche , I beseeche you , euen in your owne time of Barbarous blindnesse , what Seruice had the Churche of Englande , but peculiare , and Special to her selfe ? Touchinge the varietie of Tongues S. Augustine saith , Augusti . Aduer . Iudeos , Oratio . 4. Astitit Regina à dextris tuis in vestitu deaurato , circundata varietate . Vbi significatur Linguarum varietas in omnibus Gentibus : quarum tamen vna est intùs , & Simplex Fides : The Queene stoode at thy right hand , apparesled in Cloth of Goulde , adourned with varietie . Here by is Signified the Diuersitie of Tongues in al Nations : The Faithe whereof , that lieth within , is one , and simple . Likewise againe he saithe , Aug. in Psal. 44. Vestius Reginae huius quis est ? Et pretiosus , & varius est : Sacramenta Doctrinae in Linguis omnibus varijs . Alia Lingua Aphricana : alia Syra : alia Graeca : alia Hebraea : alia illa , & illa . Faciunt istae Linguae varietatem vestis Reginae huius . Quomodò autem omnis varietas vestis in vnitate concordat , sic & omnes Linguae ad vnam Fidem , In veste varietas sit : scissura non sit . Ecce varietatem intelleximus de Diuersitate Linguarum : & Vestem intelleximus propter Vnitatem : What is this Queenes apparel ? It is pretious , and ful of varietie : The Mysteries of Doctrine in al sundrie Tongues . There is one Tongue of Aphrica : an other of Syria : an other Greeke : an other Hebrewe : an other this , an other that . These Tongues make vp the varietie of the Queenes apparel . But as al the varietie of colours in the apparel agreeth in Vnitie : euen so al Tongues agree in one Faithe . Let there be Varietie in the Apparel : But rente , or cutte there maie not be . Behold , by the Varietie , wee vnderstande the Diuersitie of Tongues : and by the Apparel , wee vnderstande the Vnitie ( of the Churche ) . Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 6. Againe he saith , Distant inter se Linguae : Sed Linguarum distantiae non sunt schismata : Tongues are diuided one from an other : But the Diuision of Tongues is no Schisme , or Diuision in Religion .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 10.

The olde Councel at Carthage commaunded that nothing should be read in Christes Congregation , but the Canonical Scriptures : these menne reade sutche thinges in their Churches , Concil. Cartha. 3. as them selues knowe for a Truthe to be starke Lies , and fonde Fables .

M. Hardinge .

A man were better , I assure thee , good Reader , to make two newe Bookes , then to correcte one so ful of lies and falsefied places , Concil. Cartha. 3. c. 47. as this Apologie is . ‡ ‡ Vntruth . For , if this Old Councel be falsified , it was falsified twelue hundred yeeres agoe , in the Councel of Hippo. This olde Councel of Carthage is newely falsefied by our new Cleregie . The wordes of the Councel are these . Palcuit , vt praeter scripturas Canonicas nihil in Ecclesia legatur sub nomine Diuinarum Scripturatum : Scriptures onely to be read in Churches It hath semed good vnto vs , that besides the Canonical Scriptures , nothinge be read in the Churche vnder the name of the holy Scriptures . They leauinge out these foure woordes , sub nomine Diuinarum Scripturarum , Vnder the name of Diuine Scriptures , woulde beare men in hande , the Councel willed nothinge to be read in the Churche , besides the holy Scriptures . Are not these trusty men to whom ye may committe the charge of your soules for your faith and saluation ?

It foloweth in the same decree , Liceat etiam Legi passiones Martyrum , cùm anniuersarij dies celebrantur : Let it be lawful also for the Martyrdomes of Martyrs to be read , when theire yerely festes are kept . And yet dare they not onely to saie , nothing must be read besides the Scriptures , but also to alleage that very place for that special lie , whiche saithe the contrary . Looke in the Booke thy selfe good reader , and see how falsely they handle so holy matters . * * Vntruthe . For it is confessed by the beste of M. Har. owne side . An other lie is , when they saie , we reade those thinges in the Churche , whiche our selues knowe to be starke lies , and funde fables . When they cannot them selues shewe that we haue any sutche , it is a vaine lieing rhetorike to saie , we doubt not of it , or knowe it our selues for a truthe . I wonder not if they blushe not in belieng vs , who haue belied so many Scriptures , Councels , and fathers .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It standeth wel with your Truthe , M. Hardinge , so often to charge vs with Lies , & Falsehedde . I truste it wil appeare , ye had no great cause , to keepe so great reuel vpon so poore a Conqueste . In deede these woordes be not founde in the thirde Councel of Carthage . Yet are they founde in the Councel of Hippo , whiche is the Abbridgemente of the thirde Councel of Carthage , as it appeareth by the Title of the same : Concilij Hipponensis Abbreuiationes factae in concilio carthaginensi Tertio .

The woordes of the Councel of Hippo , and , for so mutche , also of the thirde Councel of Carthage , Concil. Hippo , Cap. 38. be these : Scripturae Canonicae in Ecclesia legendae quae sunt : & praeter quas alia non legantur : The Scriptures Canonical , whiche are to read in the Churche : and besides whiche nothinge els maie be read . Here haue you , M. Hardinge , the plaine woordes of the Councel of Hippo , abberidged out of the thirde Councel of Carthage , That nothinge maie be read in the Churche , but onely the Canonical Scriptures . Iudge you therefore , howe iuste cause ye had , so vnaduisedly , for I vate not to saie , so vnlearnedly , to charge the Apologie with Lies , and Falsehedde .

Hereto maie wée adde the like Decrée of the Councel holden at Laodicea : Sabbatjs Euangelia cum alijs Scripturis legenda esse censemus : Concil. Laodice . Cap. 16. Wee agree that the Gospel , with others Scriptures , be read vpon the Saboth daie . If these woordes séeme not sufficiente , Concil. Laodice . Cap. 59. it foloweth further in the same Councel , Non oportet Libros , qui sunt extra Canonem , legere , nisi solos Canonicos Veteris , & Noui Testamenti : We maie not reade any Bookes , that be without the Canon , but onely the Canonical Bookes of the Olde , and Newe Testamente .

To like effecte Chrysostome saith , Chrys. in Matth. Homi 38. Ideò Christus meusas nummulariorum euertit : Significans quòd in Templo Dei non debent esse nummi , nisi Spirituales , id est , qui Dei imaginem habent : Therefore Christe ouerthrewe the Exchangers bakes : Meaninge thereby , that there maie be no Come in the Churche , but onely Spiritual , that is to saie , Chryso . in Acta , Homil. 19. that beareth the Image of God . Againe he saithe , Lectorum officium erat , in Ecclesia , Sacra Legere ex Scriptis , vel Prophetarum , vel Apostolorum : It was the Readers office , to pronounce holy thinges vnto the people , out of either the Apostles , or Prophetes .

Erasmus saithe , Erasin . in Hiero. de Eccle. Scriptarib . Efrem . Apparet , non nisi Apostolicas Literas olim Legi solitas in Templis , aut certè Vitorum Apostolicae Authoritatis : It appeareth , that in olde time , nothinge was vsed to be read in the Churches , but onely the Apostles Writinges : or at leaste the Writinges of sutche others , Scriptures onely to be read in Churches as were of Apostolical Authoritie . Likewise saithe Abbas Ansigisus , reportinge the Ecclesiastical Decrees of the Frenche Kinges , Lewes , & Charles : In Templis tantùm Canonici Libri , id est , Sacrae Literae legantur : Let there he read in the Churches onely the Canonical Bookes , Ansigisus , Lib. 1. Cap. 19. Impressus Parisijs Anna . 1550. that is to saie , the Holy Scriptures .

An other lie , Ye saie , is this , when they saie , wee reade those thinges in the Churche , whiche our selues knowe , to be starke lies , and fonde Fables . For trial hereof , wee shal not néede to trauaile far . Your owne Bookes , and Legendes are prouse sufficiente .

Erasmus thereof saithe thus , Erasin . in Annotation . in Hieronym . De Ecclesiasticus Scrip. Hodiè quorumlibet somnia , imò mulietcularum Deliramenta leguntur inter diuinas Scripturas : Nowe a daies euery fooles Dreames , yea very wee mennes doctinge fansies are read with the Holy Scriptures .

Likewise saithe Polydore Vergil : Multorum Diuorum vitas recitant , tametsi parùm ad Fidem Scriptas : Polydor. Vergil . in Oration Dominicam . They reade many Sainctes Liues , although not written accordinge to Truthe . Ludouicus Viues , writtinge of your Legenda Aurea , whiche was the Mother of al your deuoute Ecclesiastical stories , or Fables , saithe thus , Nescio , cur Aurea dici debeat , cùm scripta sit ab homine ferrei oris , & plumbei Cordis , & plenissima sit impudentissimis Mendacijs : I see no cause , why it shoulde be called the Goulden Legende , seeinge it was written by a man of an iron face , and a ledden harte , and is freight ful of most shamelesse lies . If ye knewe not these thinges , M. Hardinge , your frendes wil thinke , ye knowe nothinge . Sutche Truthes yée reade , and publishe deuoutly , and solemnely in your Churches . Yet maie wée neither saie , nor thinke , yée mocke the people .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 1.

But if there be any , that thinke , these aboue rehersed Authorities be but weake and selender , bicause thei were decreed by Emperours , & certaine petite Bishoppes , and not by so ful , & perfite Councelles , takinge pleasure rather in the Authoritie , and name of the Pope : let sutche a one knowe , that Pope Iulius doothe e●idently forebidde , that a Priest in ministring the Communion , should dippe the Bread in the Cuppe . These menne contrarie to Pope Iulius Decree , diuide the Breade , and dippe it in the wine .

M. Hardinge .

Ye maie be sure , many men thinke this your homely stuffe not onely weake and slender , but also corrupt , venemous , and lothsome . But nowe by like , ye wil amende your faulte . But how ? Surely by going from very euil to as bad or worse , if ye can do worse , then hitherto ye haue donne . Iulius the Pope ( saie ye ) doth euidently forbidde , that a Prieste in Ministringe the Communion , shoulde dippe the Breade in the Cuppe Nowe verely your former fault of lieing is wel amended . For where before ye best out , cast in , or changed some of those wordes , whiche ye pretende to alleage , nowe ye make euery whit newe of your owne . Where hath Iulius these woorde ? I speake not of your false alleaging of places in your Bookes margent . I forgeue you the puttinge of Cum enim nemo , in stede of cum omne . These be smal and slipper faulies , which if thei were alone might be wincked at in such slipper merchantes , as ye are . But let vs heare , what Pope Iulius saith . Alios quoque audiuimus intinctam Eucharistiam populis pro complemento communionis porrigere , We haue hearde also of others , who geue to the people the Euchariste dipped , or stiped , for makinge vp of the Communion . It is to be vnderstanded , that whereas Christe , gaue the blessed Sacrament of the Aulier to his Apostles , he gaue it vnder both kindes . And when the Priestes in some countries , either for lacke of wine at al times ready , either for somme priuate fansie , vsed to dippe or stipe the sacred body of our Lord vnder forme of Breade in the consecrated bloude , Communion vnder one kinde . and so to geue it to the people : Pope Iulius findeth faulte therewith , for that neither Christe ordeined so , nor the Apostles lefte sutche order to the Churche . So that Iulius meaneth nothinge els , but to reproue and reforme that vse of dippinge or stiping the one kind in the other in the Administration of the Communion vnto the people . Reade the place , who listeth , he shal finde the same sense more largely vttered a litle after .

But what sense make these Defenders a Gods name ? They saie , Iulius forebiddeth the Prieste , ne dum peragit mysteria , panem immegat in Calicem , that in ministringe the communion , ( so the lady tourneth ) he shoulde dippe the Breade in the Cuppe . There is no sutche word in the wholde decree . Iulius nameth Eucharistiam : they cal it Breade . Iulius hath , ‡ ‡ A fonde Vanitie . For if he forbidde the Prieste to dippe the Sacramente , and to deliuer it , then he forebiddeth the Prieste to dippe the Sacramente . intinctam porrigere populis , that no Prieste ‡ geue the Sacrament dipped to the people : they , leauing out , geuing it to the people , saie he forbad the Prieste to dippe it . They leaue out also the chiefe cause of the whole , whiche is pro complemento communionis , for making vp of the communion . For he for ebiddeth to geue vnto the people onely the consecrated hoste dipped in the Chalice , as though it were the whole Communion , nolesse then if the Bloude were geuen aparte . These men ( saie they ) contrary to the decree of Pope Iulius , diuide the Bread , and dippe it in the wine . We in the Masse breake the hoste in three partes , not without * * These Mystical Significations , be Mystical folies . Reade the Answeare . signification of a Mysterie : two we receiue aparte : the thirde we put into the Chalice , and receiue it togeather with the bloude . Whal haue ye to saie againste this ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Euery parte hereof is largely answeard in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . True it is , the faulte , that Iulius here findeth in Dippinge , and Ministring the Sacrament , agréeth not fully with the present disorders of the Churche of Rome . Yet notwithstanding , in condemning the one , he muste néedes condemne the other . Ye saie , wée leaue out these woordes , Intinctam porrigunt Eucharistiam populis : They dippe the Sacramente , and deliuer the same vnto the people . And againe these woordes , Pro complemento Communionis : For the accomplishemente of the Communion . The more matter wée haue leafte out , the more haue wée conceled your faultes : and so mutche the more are you beholden to vs . For what meante you , M. Harding , to mention any of al these woordes ? What néeded you to burthen your selfe with moe Abuses , and so mutche to bewraie your folie ?

Iulius saithe , They dipped the Sacramente into the Cuppe , and deliuered it vnto the people : You dippe the Sacramente , as they did : but vnto the people ye géeue nothinge . Iulius saithe , They meante by dippinge to make it a ful , and a perfite Communion : Contrariewise , you defraude the people of the Holy Cuppe , and deliuer them onely the Halfe Communion , And therefore ye are mutche more blame woorthy , then euer were they , whom Iulius reproued . For they offended onely of Simplicitie : and you of wilfulnesse .

But touchinge the matter it selfe , the faulte , that wée finde with you , and the faulte , that Iulius founde with others your Predecessours , is al one . You dippe the Breade into the Cuppe : & so did they . They brake Christes Institution : and so doo you . And therefore Iulius saide vnto them , Hoc quàm sit Apostolicae , & Euangelicae Doctrinae contrarium , & consuetudini Ecclesiasticae aduersum , non difficilè ab ipso Fonte Veritatis probatur , à quo ordinata ipsa Sacramentorum Mysteria processerunt : Howe far contrarie this is to the Apostolical , and Euangelical Doctrine , and to the Custome of the Churche , it is easy to proue by the Fountaine of the Truthe , by whom the Mysteries of the Sacramentes were ordeined , and from whom they firste proceeded .

Ye thinke the mater wel discharged , for that ye deliuer not the Sacramente so dipped vnto the people , but minister it onely vnto your selfe . Here by the waie , it were a mater of skil , to vnderstande , by what Authoritie , either of scripture , or of Councel , or of Doctoure , it maie appeare , that it is lawful for the Prieste so to vse and receiue the Sacramente , Communion vnder One kinde . and vnlawful for the people . If the people maie not as safely , and as lawfully so receiue the Sacramente , as maie the Prieste , wherefore then are these woordes written in your Masse Bookes , euen in the Canon , & Secretes of your Masse ? Haec Sacrosancta Commixtio Corporis , & Sanguinis Domini nostri Iesu Christi fiat mihi , & omnibus sumentibus salus animae & Corporis , This Holy minglinge of the Body , and Bloude of our Lorde Iesus Christe , be vnto me , and vnto al , that receiue it , the health of Soule and Body . Verily these woordes , Omnibus sumentibus , cannot by any shifte possibly be expounded of One Onely Prieste , but muste néedes be extended vnto the people .

Yée woulde faine tel vs of certaine special Mysteries , that ye haue founde out in the Breakinge of the Sacramente , Daniel . 2 Senten . Lib. 4. Dist. 12. if ye wiste , what thei were . But ye are in case , as somm●time was Nabuchodonozor : Yee are not hable wel to tel vs your own dreame . Sammetime ye saie , The Breade is broken : sommetime ye saie , The Accidentes remaine alone by Miracle , and they are broken : Sommetime ye saie , Christes Immortal , and Impassible Body it selfe is Broken : Sommetime ye saie , Our eies be deceiued , and nothinge is broken .

Againe ( yee saie ) the First péece signifieth the Chruche trauailing in the world : Durandus Li. 4. Cap. 53. The Seconde signifieth the Blessed Sainctes in Heauen : the Thirde signifieth the Soules in Purgatorie . De Conse . Dist. 2. Triforme . But Pope Sergius , the Father of these fantastes , conueieth his Mysteries an other waie . For the Firste portion , saithe he , signifieth Christes Body after his Resurrection : The Seconde , christes Body walkinge on Earthe : The Thirde , Christes Body in the Graue . These , M. Hardinge , be your Holy Significations , & Special Mysteries . With sutche folies , and Mystical vanities ye mocke the world . In Olde times the Breade was not broken , to busie mennes heades with Significations , Artic. 11. Diui. 3. Augu. Epist. 59. but onely to be deliuered to the people : as in my Former Replie , I haue declared more at large . S. Augustine saith , Panis benedicitur , & Sanctificatur , & ad distribuendum Comminuitur : The Bread is Blessed , and Sanctified , and broken into peeces , to the ende it maie be deliuered .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 2.

Pope Clement saithe , It is not lawful for a Bishop to deale with Bothe Swerdes : For if thou wilt haue bothe , saith he , thou shalte deceiue bothe thee selfe , and those , that obeie the. Nowe a daies the Pope chalengeth to him selfe Bothe Swerdes , and vseth bothe . Wherefore it ought to seeme lesse marueile , if that haue folowed , whiche Clemente saithe , that is , that he hath deceiued bothe him selfe , and those , whiche haue geeuen eare vnto him .

M. Hardinge .

If these felowes had not sworne to belie al the worlde for maintenance of theire newe Gospel , they woulde at this time at leaste haue made a true reporte of S. Clementes woordes . S. Clement speaketh not of two swordes . The palace truely alleaged hath thus : * * These wordes are partely Clementes , partely S. Bernardes . Si mundialibus curis fueris occupatus , & teipsum decipies , & eos qui te audiunt . If thou be occupied in worldely cares , thou shalt bothe deceiue thy selfe , and those that listen to thee . The Authoure of this Apologie , hauinge spite at the Church , whiche is Christes folde , and at the Pope , the heade Shepherde , enuieing at his auctoritie , forgeth a lie vpon S. Clement , making him to saie , Si vtrunque habere vis , if thou wilt haue bothe swordes , thou shalt bothe deceiue thy selfe , and those that obeie thee . ‡ ‡ Fonde and child ●he . As though a Bishop maie haue the Tempord 〈◊〉 , and ●xecute a Temporal office , without wo●ldly cates . Whereas Clemente speaketh no word of the two swordes , but of worldly cares , where with what Bishop so euer is entangled , shal ( as he saithe ) deceiue both him selfe , and others that harken to him . For whiche cause these Defenders being coupled with yoke fellowes in pretensed wedlocke , Bothe Sweerdes in one hande . which state wrappeth a man in worldly cares , 1. Cor. 7. because sutche a one * * What cares haue thei that keepe Concubines ? careth for the thinges of the worlde , howe to please his wife , and is diuided , as S. Paule saithe : it must needes folowe , that hauing taken the office of superintendentes , and charge of Soules vpon them . ‡ ‡ Eleuen of the Twelue Apostles , and many Holy Fathers , and Bishoppes were Married : and yet deceiued not &c. they haue deceiued them selues , and dayly doo deceiue so many as heare them , and folow their false Doctrine .

The B. of Sarisburie .

O what a pleasante grace M. Hardinge hath , to talke of Lies ? A man woulde thinke , it were somme good parte of his studie . In this place twoo sundrie Authorities , the one of Clemens , the other of S. Bernarde , I knowe not , by what erroure , were ioined in one , and bothe alleged , and set foorthe vnder the name onely of Clements . I graunte , There was herein an ouersight : But Lie , or Falshedde there was none .

The woordes of Clemens are , Bernard . De Consideration . Li. 2. as you reporte them . The woordes of S. Bernarde , written vnto Pope Eugenius , are these : Planum est , Apostolis interdici Dominatum . I ergo tu , & tibi vsurpate aude , aut Dominans Apostolatum : aut Apostolus Dominatum . Planè ab alterurto prohiberis . Si vtrunque similiter habere velis , perdes vtrunque : It is plaine , that vnto the Apostles of Christe , Lordeship , or Temporal Princehoode is forebidden . Goe thou thy waie therefore ( thus he saithe to the Pope ) and dare thou to vsurpe , either the Apostleship , beinge a Lorde : or a Lordeship , beinge an Apostle . From one of them vndoubtedly thou arte forebidden . If thou wilt indifferently haue bothe , thou wilt lose bothe .

Of sutche , S. Hieronym . in Sophoniam . Ca. 1. Hierome writeth thus , Militantes Christo , obligant se negotijs Saecularibus , & eandem imaginem offerunt Deo , & Caesari : Beinge the Souldiers of Christe , they binde them selues to worldly affaires , and offer vp one Image to God , and Caesar . In the Canons of the Apostles it is written thus , Canon . Aposto . Canon . 80. Mathae . 10. Non oportet Episcopum , aut Presbyterum , se Publicis Administrationibus immittere : sed vacare , & commodum se praebere vsibus Ecclesiasticis . Nemo enim potest duobus Dominis seruire : A Bishop , or a Prieste maie not entangle him selfe with worldly Offices : but be at reaste , and shewe him selfe meete for the vse of the Churche . For noman can serue twoo Maisters . Yet the Pope this daie claimeth the righte of Bothe Swerdes , De Maiorita . & Obedient . Vnam Sanctam . Paralipomena Vispergensis . not onely of the Spiritual , but also of the Temporal . And Pope Bonifacius 8. in the Greate Iubilee , and in the open sighte of the worlde , when he had one daie shewed him selfe in his Pontificalibus , apparelled in Procession as a Bishop , the nexte daie he put vpon him the Emperours Roabes of Maiestie , & had the Emperial Crowne vpon his heade , and the Sw●rde naked . and glitteringe borne before him .

As for Pope Clemens , his Canon is easily shifted by a prety Prouiso . For thus saithe your Glose touchinge the same , Extra de Iureiurando , Etsi Christus . In Glossa . Cessante causa , cessat effectus . Verbi causa , Prohibetur , ne Presbyteri gerant tutelas , hac causa , vt meliùs vacent Diuinis Officiis . Haec causa finalis est . Vnde , cessante hac causa , cessat effectus . Vnde , si non vacent Diuinis Officiis , poterunt gerere tutelas : The cause endinge , the Effecte endeth too . For example : The Lawe commaundeth , that a Prieste shal not be charged with the Wardeship of a Childe in his nonage . The cause hereof is this , that he maie the better applie his Diuine Seruice . This is the Final Cause . This cause remoued , the Effecte geeueth place . Therefore if the Prieste folowe not his Diuine Seruice , then he maie haue the Wardeship of a Childe . Euen so , if the Pope doo not the Office of a Bishop , then maie he be a Temporal Prince . But by these meanes it commeth to passe , euen as clemens saithe , He deceiueth bothe him selfe , and also them that heare him .

Touchinge this vaine obiection of the charge , Part. 5. Cap. 3. Diuision . 7. And Part. 2. Cap. 8. Diuision . 2. and cares of Marriage , it is fully answeared before , in a place more conueniente .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 3.

Pope Leo saith , Upon one daie it is lawful to saie but one Masse in one Churche : These menne saie daiely in one Churche commonly tenne Masses , twentie , thirtie , yea often times moe . So that the poore gafer on can scante tel whiche waie he were beste to turne him selfe . Pope Gelasius saithe , It is a wicked deede , and subiecte to Sacrilege in any man , to diuide the Communion , and , when he hath receiued one Kinde , to absteine from the other . These menne , contrarie to Goddes Woorde , and contrarie to Pope Gelasius , commaunde , that one Kinde onely of the Holy Communion be geeuen the people : and by so dooinge , they make their Priestes gilty of Sacrilege .

M. Hardinge .

‡ ‡ A solemne fansie . They muste needes be wise mē●e , that so wil thinke . There is no small number of men , whiche are moued to suspecte , that this Apologie was deuised by some Catholike man , intendinge to mocke this newe Cleregie of Englande , and to put them quite out of estimation and credite . * * Here M. Hard. confesseth , that he , and his Felowes can sette foorthe lies . And to that very ende this innumerable companie of Lies to them seemeth of pourpose to be set out . For no man hauinge his fiue wittes woulde thinke good , for mainetenance of his owne parte , to affirme so many thinges , the contrary whereof to his greate discredite and shame , In Epist. ad Dioscorum Alexandrinum . by searche is easely founde . * * Vntruthe manifeste . Reade the Answeare . Articul . 13. Diuision . 4. Leo saithe cleane contrary to that is here in his name auouched , that when so euer a newe multitude filleth the Churche , so as all cannot be present at the Sacrifice at once , that the Oblation of the Sacrifice be without castinge any doubte done againe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

I beseeche thée , Gentle Reader , for shortnesse sake , & for thy better satisfaction herein , to consider my answeare made hereunto in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge . Uerily Leo speaketh not one woorde , either of Priuate Masse , or of Sole Receiuinge , or of any other like Superstitious , and yéeuishe vanitie : but onely of the General Communion of the whole Churche . His Counsel therefore vnto Dioscorus is , that if vpon occasion of resorte , the multitude of Communicantes were so greate , that they coulde not haue conuenient coume in the Churche , to receiue al togeather at one Communion , then the Prieste , after he had ministred vnto the firste Companie , and had willed them to departe foorthe , and géeue place to others , and sawe the Churche replenished againe with a newe Companie of aftercommers , shoulde without feare , or remorse of Conscience beginne the whole Communion againe , and so minister vnto them , as he had donne vnto the foremet . More then this oute of Leoes woordes cannot be geathered .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 1.

But if they wil saie , that al these thinges are woorne nowe out of vre , and nighe deade , & perteine nothinge to these presente times , Yet to the ende al folke maie vnderstande , what Faithe is to be geeuen to these menne , and vpon what hope they cal togeather their General Councelles , let vs see in fewe woordes , what good heede they take to the selfe same thinges , which thei them selues , these very last yeres , ( and the remembrance thereof is yet newe and freashe ) in their owne General Councel , that they had by order called , haue decreed , and

Againe he saithe , Summus Sacerdos . speakinge likewise of any one Bishop , Vidisti Summum Sacerdotem Interrogantem , Ambros . De ijs qui initiantur . Ca. 3. & Consecrantem : Thou sawest the Highest Prieste examininge the people , that was to be Baptized , and Consecratinge the Water .

I leaue out sundrie other like Authorities of Origen , of Lactantius , of Athanasius , of Leo , Euagrius Lib. 3. Cap. 32. of Victor , of Meltiades , and of others . Euagrius calleth Euphemius , and Gregorius the Bishop of Antioche , Summos Sacerdotes , The Higheste Priestes . Ruffinus . Lib. 2. Cap. 23. Ruffinus calleth Athanasius , the Bishop of Alexandria , Pontificem Maximum : The Greatest , or Higheste Bishop . By these , I truste , it maie appeare , that the Title , or Dignitie of the Highest Priestehoode , was general , and common to al Bishoppes , and not onely closed vp , and mortesed onely in the Pope .

Bisides al this , Augustin . Epis. 162. ye bringe vs a Woorde , yee saie , of Greater sounde : In Romana Ecclesia semper viguit Apostolicae Cathedrae Principatus : In the Romaine Churche the Princehoode of the Apostolike Chaire hath alwaies florished . In deede , Princehoode , and Apostolike , be ioily large woordes , and carrie greate sounde . And faine woulde yee haue , the Bishop of Rome shoulde be a Prince . Notwithstandinge , in the Councel of Aphrica it was decreed thus , Dist. 99. Primae Sedis . Primae Sedis Episcopus non appelletur Princeps Sacerdotum : Let not the Bishop of the Firste See be called the Prince of Priestes .

But what if the sounde of these woordes weighe no heauier , then the former ? Or , what if this woorde , Princehoode , be nomore peculiare to the Pope , then is the other of Highest Priesthoode ? Paulinus , writtinge vnto Alypius , not the Greate Bishop of Rome , but the poore Bishop , as I remember , of Tagasta , saithe thus , Inter Epistolas Augustin . Epis. 35. Deus in Ciuibus Ciuitatis suae Principalem te cum Principibus populi sui , Sede Apostolica collocauit : God hath placed thee emongest the Citizens of his Cittie , in the Apostolique See , beinge a Principal , or a Chiefe with ( other Bishoppes , that is to saie , with ) the Princes of his people : Here haue you founde the Princehoode of the See Apostolique , not onely in Rome , but also in the poore Cittie of Tagasta . Likewise S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysotom . De Orando Deum . Li. 1. Ad orandum nos assiduè prouocat ( Paulus ) Apostolorum Princeps : Paule the Prince of the Apostles calleth vpon vs , to be al waies praieinge . So saithe S. Gregorie , Paulus obtinuit totius Ecclesiae Principatum : Paule obteined the Princehoode of the whole Churche . Gregor. in 1. Regum , Ca. 10. Li. 4. Ca. 4. So saithe Leo , Iuuenalis Episcopus , ad obtinendum Palestinae Prouinciae Principatum , &c. Bishop Iuuenal , that he mighte obteine the Princehoode of the Prouince of Palest●e , &c. Briefely your owne singulare Doctoure Amphilochius writeth thus . Leo Epis. 62. Amphilochius . not of the Pope , but of S. Basile the Bishop of Caesarea : Additus est Principibus Sacerdotum Magnus ipse Princeps Sacerdotum : Basile , beinge deade , was laide with other Bishoppes the Princes of Priestes , beinge him selfe the Greate Prince of Priestes . It was greate folie therefore M. Hardinge , these Titles thus lieinge in Common , to encroche the same onely to the Pope . Notwithstandinge , ye saie , Thus nowe til then . Verily , when the Pope him selfe shal beginne to consider , and to weighe your pleadinge , then wil he saie , he had a very vnskilful Proctoure .

For answeare to the reste , Articul . 4. Diuisi . 30. & 32. I remit you to my Firste Replie .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 2.

Whiche of the Anciente Fathers , or Doctours euer saide , that bothe the Swerdes are committed vnto you ?

M. Hardinge .

Let S. Bernarde , Writinge to a Pope , answeare for the Pope . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For his Authoritie is not sufficient , as it shal appeare . He is a sufficient witnesse . Where your selfe doo alleage him muche against the Pope , you can not by the lawe iustly refuse him , speaking for the Pope . Bothe Swerdes . The spirituall swoorde you denie not , I trowe . Of the Temporall swoorde belonginge also to the Pope , Bernard . De Considera . Lib. 4. thus saithe S. Bernarde to Eugenius . He that denieth this swoorde to be thine , seemeth to me , not to consider sufficiently the woorde of our Lorde , saieinge thus ( to Peter thy Predecessour ) * * Put vp thy Swerde : Ergo , The Pope hathe bothe Swerdes : A simple Argumente . Put vp thy swoorde into the scaberde . The very same then is also thine to be drawen foorthe perhaps at thy becke , though not with thy hande . Els if the same belonged in no wise vnto thee , where as the Apostles saide , Beholde there be twoo swoordes here : Our Lorde woulde not haue answeared , It is ynough , but , It is too muche . So bothe be the Churches , the spirituall swoorde , and the materiall . But this is to be exercised for the Churche , and that of the Churche . That by the hande of the Prieste , this of the Souldier , but verily at the becke of the Prieste , and commaundement of the Emperoure . Thus. touchinge the Popes bothe swoordes , you are fully answered by S. Bernarde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Pope hath power to claime Authoritie without shame . Emongest others his vnaduised , Dist. 22. Omnes . and vaine Woordes , thus he saith : Christus Beato Petro , Vitae Aeternae Clauigero , Terreni simul & Coelestis Imperij iura commisit : Christe hathe committed vnto Peter , the keiebearer of Euerlastinge Life , the right bothe of the Worldly , and also of the Heauenly Empiere : That is to saie , The Pope is Emperoure bothe of Heauen , Paralipom . Vrspergensis . & of Earthe . And therefore Pope Bonifacius 8. as it is saide before , in the sight of the worlde , ware the Crowne Emperial on his heade , & commaunded the naked swerde to be borne before him : & Proclamation to be made , Ecce duo Gladij hic : Beholde here are the twoo Swerdes . I meane the same Pope Bonifacius , of whom it is written , Carion . He entred as a Foxe : He reigned as a Woulfe : he died as a Dogge . Hereof it is written in concilio Vangionum , Vtrunque , & Imperium , & Pontificatum , Auentinus . sicuti Decij , & Falsorum Deorum Cultores factitare consueuerunt , vsurpat : The Pope wronge fully vsurpeth bothe togeather , as wel the Worldly Empiere , as the Bishoprike , as Decius , and the woorshippers of False Goddes were woonte to doo .

Yet S. Bernarde saithe , The Pope hath Bothe Swerdes : But S. Bernardes Authoritie in this case is but simple . He liued Eleuen hundred yéeres after Christes Ascension , in the time of Kinge Henry the Firste , the Kinge of Englande , in the middes of the Popes route , and Tyrannie . How be it , touchinge his Iudgemente , and Credite herein , let vs rather heare one of your owne Doctours . Herueus therfore saithe thus , Herueus De Potestate Papae , Cap. 18. Bernardus ponit , quòd Papa habet Gladium Materialem in nutu . Sed istud , cum hoc , quòd non est magnae Authoritatis , magis est contra eos , quàm pro eis : Bernarde saithe , that the Pope hath the Material , or Temporal Swerde at his commaundement . But this saieinge of Bernardes , bisides that it is of smal force , maketh also more againste them , Herueus De Potestate Papae , Cap. 18. then with them . Againe he saithe , Vnum istorum Gladiorum Petrus non teugit , scilicet , Saecularem , qui suus non erat : The one of these two Swerdes . Peter neuer touched : I meane the Worldly , or Temporal Swerde : For that Swerde was none of his .

Likewise ye maie finde it written in your owne Decrees , vnder the name of S. Dist. 10. Quoniam idem . Cyprian , Christus actibus proprijs , & dignitatibus distinctis , Officia Potestatis vtriusque discreuit : Christe ( hath not committed Bothe these Swerdes to one mannes hand , but ) by seueral Dueties , and sundrie Dignities , hath seuered the Offices of either Power . Whereupon your owne Glose saithe thus , Ergo , est Argumentum , quòd Papa non habet vtrunque Gladium : This therefore is a proufe , that the Pope hath not Bothe the swerdes .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 3.

Whiche of the Anciente Fathers euer saide , that you haue Authoritie , and righte to calle Councelles ?

M. Hardinge .

Who hath authoritie to commaunde the partes of the body , To calle Councelles . but the head ? ‡ ‡ Vntruth great and manifest . for this was yet neuer proued . And that the Pope is head , where it is amply declared , ye hearde euen nowe . Where you aske , whiche euer saide , that the Pope hath authoritie to cal councelles , if you knowe not so mutche , * * Vntruthe . For Socrates saithe not so . We tel you , that Socrates the writer of the Ecclesiastical historie saithe so , not speaking in his owne person , but reportinge an olde rule of the Churche in these woordes . Histo. Triparti . li. 4. Cap. 9. Sed neque Iulius interfuit maximae Romae praesul , neque in locum suum aliquem destinauit , cùm vtique regula ecclesiastica iubeat , non oportere praeter sententiam Romani Pontificis ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , standing in false Translation . Reade the answeare . concilia celebrari . But neither Iulius the bishop of greate Rome was present , ( at the councel of Antiochia ) neither sent he any man in his place , where as the ecclesiastical rule commaundeth , that without the aduise and wil of the Pope of Rome no councels be kepte . And , as Socrates witnesseth of the calling of councels , so doth Sozomenus witnesse of the thinges doone in them . Lib. 3. ca. 10. Cum sacerdotali lege constitutum sit , pro irritis haberi debere , quae praeter sententiam episcopi Romani geruntur . Where as ( saithe he ) it hath benne ordeined by a lawe of Bishoppes , that what thinges be doone ( in any councel ) besides th aduise and wil of the bishop of Rome , they ought to be taken for none , and voide . If you wil see more for this authoritie of calling councels , reade Rescriptum Iulij Papae contrà Orientales : Epist. Athanasij & Aegyptiorum Pontificum ad Foelicem Papam . This matter is also fully answeared .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here hath M. Hardinge brought in a shewe of greate Authorities withoute sense . For answeare whereof , it maie please thee , Gentle Reader , to consider the fourth Article of my Former Replie . Articulo . 4. Diui. 26. Notwithstanding , emongest al these wordes of Pope Iulius , Socrates , Cassiodorus , and forged Athanasius , there is not one woorde of power , and Authoritie to calle Councelles . Onely thus mutche they saie , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Regula Iuris . No Decree maie passe in Councel without the agreemente and consente of the Bishop of Rome : for that he was one of the Foure Principal Patriarkes , and oughte to haue his voice there , as wel as others . It is a Principle ruled in Lawe , Quod omnes tangit , ab omnibus debet approbari : That toucheth al , muste be allowed by al.

But , leste you shoulde thinke , this was the Popes onely prerogatiue , and belonged to none other bisides him , the same Socrates writeth the very like wordes as wel of the Bishop of Constantinople , as of the Pope . Thus he saithe , Et hoc fecerunt , Socra . li. 7. ca. 28. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . contemnentes Legem , qua cauetur , ne quis eligatur praeter sententiam Episcopi Constantinopolitani : Thus did they , not regardinge the Decree , whereby order was taken , that no Bishop should be chosen without the consente of the Bishop of Constantinople . Yet maie not M. Hardinge conclude hereof , that therefore the Bishop of Constantinople had Authoritie to calle Councelles .

Aeneas Syluius , that afterwarde him selfe was Pope , named Pius the Second writeth thus , His Authoritatibus mirum in modum putant se armatos , qui negant , Concilia fieri posse sine consensu Papae . Quorum sententia si , vt ipsi volunt , inuiolata persistat , ruinam secum Ecclesiae trahit : They that saie , no Councel maie be keapte without the consente of the Pope , thinke them selues marueilously fensed by these Authorities . Aeneas Syluius De Concil. Basi . lib. 1. But if theire saieinge holde , and take place , as they woulde haue it , it wil drawe with it the decaie , and ruine of the Churche .

The Foure first greate Councelles , of Nice , of Ephesus , of Chalcedon , of Constantinople , and the reste , as it shal afterwarde more largely appeare , were alwaies called by the Emperours , and not by the Pope . As for the Pope , he hadde not yet the whole worlde at his commaundemente , nor any sutche Vniuersal Authoritie , to calle Councelles : but rather was commaunded him selfe , as other Bishoppes were , by the Emperours Authoritie , to comme to Councelles .

Therefore , where you woulde conclude thus , The Pope was Head of the Churche : The whole worlde is the Popes Diocese . Ergo he had Authoritie to calle Councelles : Wee maie rather , and mutche better turne youre tale backewarde , and saie thus , The Pope hadde no Authoritie to calle Councelles : Ergo , he was not Headde of the Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 4.

Whiche of the Auncient Fathers , or Doctours euer saide , The whole worlde is but your Diocese ?

M. Hardinge .

He that saide to Peter , Ioan. 22. fede my Lambes , and , fede my Shepe , * * God knoweth here is a sheepishe reason . whiche Lambes and shepe al Christen menne be through the worlde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Canonistes , that is to saie , the Popes Pages of Honoure , haue not doubted to infeaffe their Maister with the possession of al the worlde . One saithe thus , Extra , de Appellation . Vt debitus . In Gloss . Extra . De statu Regularium . periculoso In Gloss . Extra . de Poenis . Foelicis . In Gloss . Extra De Concess . Praebendae , & Ecclesiae non Vaecantis . Quia diuersitatem . Abb. Ceremoniar . li. 1. Fran. Zarabella . Dominus Papa est Ordinarius omnium hominum : Oure Lorde the Pope is the Ordinarie , or Bishop of al menne . An other saithe , Papa totius mundi obtinet Principatum , The Pope hath the Princehoode of al the worlde . An other saithe , Papa est Episcopus totius Orbis : The Pope is the Bishop of the whole worlde . An other saithe , Papa etiam cessante negligentia Praelatorum , potest conferre beneficia totius Oribis : Quia ipse est Ordinarius totius mundi . Though there be no defaulte , or negligence in any Bishop , yet maie the Pope bestowe the benefices of al the worlde : For that he is the Bishop of al the worlde . Therefore when the Chiefe Deacon inuesteth , or enrobethe the Pope at his Consecration , he saithe vnto him , Ego inuestio te de Papatu , vt praesis Vrbi , & Orbi : I do inueste thee with the Popedome , that thou maiste rule bothe the Cittie , and the worlde .

Of this infinite Ambition , and inordinate tyrannie manie good menne haue often complained . Franciscus Zarabella , beinge him selfe a Cardinal of Rome , saithe thus : Ex hoc infiniti sequuti sunt errores : Quia Papa occupauit omnia iura inferiorum Ecclesiarum : Et nisi Deus succurrat statui Ecclesiarum , Vniuersa Ecclesia periclitatur : Hereof haue ensued infinite errours : for that the Pope hathe inuaded the right of al inferiour Churches . And onlesse God healpe the state of the Churches , the Vniuersal Churche is in ieoperdie . Anna in Historia Graeca : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Histor. Ecclesiast. lib. 1. cap. 6.

The learned Lady Anna Daughter vnto the Emperoure Alexius , and Irene , in her Storie , that she wrote in Greeke , emonge many other thinges to like pourpose , writeth thus : Papa est Dominus totius Mundi , quemadmodum Latini quidem putant , & praedicant : Est enim etiam haec pars quaedam illorum insolentiae . The Pope is the Lorde of al the worlde , as the Latines thinke , and speake of him . For this is a peece of theire Ambition .

This hath benne the late wanton Claime of the Popes Canonistes . Athana . Ad solitariam Vitam agentes . Otherwise the Ancient Learned Fathers haue euermore bounded , and limited the Pope within his owne particular Iurisdiction . Ruffinus saithe , the Fathers in the Councel of Nice , Sozomen . lib. 6. ca. 23. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hieronymus ad Euagrium . appointed the Pope to ouersee the Churches of his owne Suburbes : Vt Romanus Episcopus Suburbicarum Ecclesiarum sollicitudinem gerat . Athanasius saith , Roma est Metropolis Romanae ditionis : Rome is the Mother Churche ( not of al the vniuersal worlde , but ) of the Romaine ( particulare ) Iurisdiction . The Bishoppes in the Councel of Rome write thus to the Bishoppes of Illyricum , Par est , omnes qui sunt in Orbe Romano , Episcopos conuenire : It is conuemente , that al the Bishoppes , that be within the Iurisdiction of Rome , shoulde accorde togeather . S Hierome speakinge of the vsage , and order of the Churche of Rome , saithe thus , Al receiue of the Popes fulnesse . Quid mihi profeis Vnius Vrbis Consuetudinem ? What allegeste thou me the Custome of one Cittie ? So mutche he abbridgeth the Popes Iurisdiction , that he extendeth it , not vnto the Listes , & endes of al the worlde , but restreineth it only to the limites of one Cittie . Hierony . ad Euagrium . Hieronymus aduersus Vigilantium . Likewise againe , speakinge of the Bishop of Rome , he saithe thus , Non solùm Vnius Vrbis , sed etiam totius Orbis errant Episcopi : Then not onely the Bishop of One Towne ( whiche was the Bishop of Rome ) but also the Bishoppes of al the worlde are deceiued .

Thus therefore writeth Gennadius , togeather with the Councel of Constantinople , vnto the Bishop of Rome , Gennadius ad omnes Metropolitanos , & ad Papam Roman . Curet Sanctitas tua Vniuersas tuas Custodias , tibique subiectos Episcopos : Let youre Holinesse see vnto ( not al the whole worlde , but ) al your owne charge , and sutche Bishoppes , as he subiecte vnto you .

By these fewe we see , the Bishop of Romes power was , not Vniuersal or infinite , ouer al the Churches , and Kingedomes of the worlde : but certaine , and limited within his owne particulare Iurisdiction .

As for the reasons , yee vse for proufe hereof , I marueile , ye would euer trouble the worlde with so Childishe folies . Christe saide vnto Peter , Feede my sheepe : Ergo , saie you , the whole worlde is the Popes Diocese . A good Sheepe woulde haue made a better Arguments .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 5.

Whiche of the holy Ancient Fathers euer saide , that al Bishoppes haue receiued of youre fulnesse ?

M. Hardinge .

Besides others , so hath * * A simple Authoritie . S. Bernarde saide in his booke de consideratione ad Eugenium . Where he saithe , that he is called in plenitudinem potestatis , into the fulnes of power .

The B. of Sarisburie .

There is no folie so vaine , but by some shift maie be mainteined . In your Glose , M. Hardinge , Clemen . li. 5. De Haereti . Ad vestrum , In Gloss . Petrus de Palude , de Potestate Papae . it is written thus : Omnes subiecti sunt motioni Papae , & sunt in illo , quasi Membra de Membro : Al men are subiecte vnto the Popes wil , and are in him as members of a member . An other saithe , Ecclesia non habet Potestatem aliquam Iurisdictionis , nisi à Petro : The Churche hath no Power of Iurisdiction , but onely from Peter . And againe , A Petro , post Christum , Spiritualis Gratia , & Potestas deriuatur : Nexte after Christe , Spiritual Grace , and Power is deriued from Peter . And therefore an other of your Doctours saithe : Petrus de Palude , de Potestate collata Aposto . Durandus , li. 2. De Ministris & Ordinib . Augusti . de Trinita . li. 15. ca. 26. Omnes Episcopi descendunt à Papa , quasi Membra à Capite : & de eius Plenitudine omnes accipiunt . Al Bishoppes are deriued from the Pope , as Members from the Head : and al they receiue of his fulnesse : that is to saie , Power of his Power , and Grace of his Grace . Al these vanities M. Hardinge thinketh , maie be wel borne out by two bare woordes of S. Bernarde .

But S. Augustine , many hundred yeeres before Bernarde was borne , wrote thus : Nos quidem accipere possumus hoc donum pro modulo nostro : Fundere autem illud super alios non possumus . Sed , vt hoc fiat , Deum super eos , à quo hoc efficitur , inuocamus : In deede we maie receiue the gifte of God accordinge to our portion : but to poure the same vpon others , we are not able . Notwithstanding , in theire behalfe wee cal vpon God , that is the worker hereof , that he wil doo it .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 6.

Whiche of al the Ancient Doctours euer saide , that al Power is geuen to you , Al power geeuen to the Pope . as wel in Heauen , as in Earthe ?

M. Hardinge .

* * Vntruthe , vndiscrete , and impudent . For no Ancient Doctour or Father euer vttered so fonde woordes . Al they whiche speake of the ministerial Power , whereby vnder Christe the militant Churche by him is gouerned . But if you meane absolutely , as youre woordes seeme to sounde , so no discrete Catholike man euer saide or thought .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , by a prety distinction , of Power Absolute , and Power not Absolute , Christe , and his Vicare are set togeather to parte tenures . Howe be it , what manner of Power it is , Extra , De translatione Episcopi . Quanto . Hostien . In Concil. Lateran . sub Leone . 10. Sessione . 10. that the Pope claimeth , his owne Proctours , and Counsellers can tel vs best . Cardinal Hostiensis saithe , Excepto peccato , Papa potest , quicquid Deus ipse potest : Sinne onely excepted , the Pope hath Power to doo , what so euer God him selfe can doo . Stephanus the Bishop of Patraca , in youre late Councel at Laterane in Rome , saithe thus , In Papa est omnis Potestas supra omnes Potestates , tam Coeli , quàm Terrae : Al Power is in the Pope aboue al the Powers , as wel of Heauen , as of Earthe .

And , Citatur in eodem Concil. Lateran . to make the mater plaine , youre owne Bernarde him selfe saithe , Tibi data est omnis Potestas : in qua , qui totum dicit , nihil excludit : Al manner of Power is geeuen to thee : He that saithe , Al , excepteth nothing .

And , Extra , de Constitutionibus , ca. 1. Abbate Panormitane saithe , Plenitudo Potestatis superat omnem Legem positiuam : Et sufficit quòd in Papa sit pro Ratione Voluntas : The fulnesse of Power passeth al Positiue Lawe : and it is sufficient in the Pope , that Wil stande instede of Reason .

This is that Power , that M. Hardinge here hathe so closely conueied in , vnder the Cloude of his Distinction .

But , Baldus . Baldus , that by experience sawe the practise hereof , saithe thus : Haec Plenitudo Potestatis , est Plenitudo Tempestatis : This Fulnesse of Power , is a Fulnesse of Tempeste .

An other of youre Doctoures saithe : Herueus , De Potesta . Papae . ca. 18 Bernardus nullam Potestatem ponit in Papa , quam non ponit in Praelatis inferioribus : licet in Papa ponat Summam : Bernarde alloweth no Power vnto the Pope , but he alloweth the same to other inferioure Bishoppes : Notwithstandinge , he alloweth the greatest Power vnto the Pope . Bernard . De Consideration . li. 3. S. Bernarde him selfe saithe to like pourpose , Sic factuando probatis , vos habere plenitudinem Potestatis : Sed Iustitiae fortè non ita . Thus dooinge , and dealinge , yee shewe youre selfe to haue the Fulnesse of Power : but perhaps not likewise the Fulnesse of Iustice .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 7.

Whiche of the Ancient Fathers euer saide , that neither Kinge , nor Prince , nor the whole Cleregie , nor al the people togeather are hable to be Iudges ouer you ?

M. Hardinge .

* * Worthy reasons . What Shepe shal be iudges ouer their shepherde ? For as the Fathers of the moste ancient Councel of Sinuessa saide , in the cause of ‡ ‡ This Marcellinus being Pope , had committed open Idolatrie , in making Sacrifice ●nto Diuelles . Marcellinus the Pope , Nemo vnquam iudicauit Pontificem : No man euer iudged the Pope , nor any Prelate his highe Prieste . Quoniam prima sedes non iudicabitur à quoquam : * because the first See shal not be iudged of any body .

The B. of Sarisburie .

In these twoo pointes standeth the Popes Garde of truste , and the keepe , and Castel of al his Power . Firste , the Churche of Rome , what so euer waie she take , can neuer erre : Nexte , the Pope , what so euer he doo , maie neuer be called to any reckening . The Pope without Checke . One of your Doctours saithe thus : Omne factum Sanctissimi Patris interpretari debemus in bonum . Et fiquidem fuerit furtum , vel aliud ex se malum , interpretari debemus , Iohan , De Parisijs , De Potesta . Regia , & Papali . quòd Diuino instinctu fiat : Wee muste expounde euery acte of the Holy Father for the beste . And if it be thefte , or any other thinge , that of it selfe is euil ( as Aduoutrie , or Fornication ) we muste thinke , it is donne by the secrete inspiration of God . An other saithe , Si Papa innumerabiles populos cateruatim secum ducat mancipio Gehennae , cum ipso plagis mulus in aeternum vapulaturos , Distinct . 40. Si Papa . huius culpas arguere praesumat mortalium nullus : If the Pope drawe infinite Companies of people by heapes togeather with him self into Hel , to be pounished with him with many stripes for euer , yet let no Mortal man presume to reproue his faultes .

An other saith , 9. Questi . 3. Cunctae . Papa solutus est omni Lege Humana : The Pope is exempted from al Lawe of Man . An other saithe , Sacrilegij instar esset , disputare de facto Papae . Facta Papae excusantur , vt homicidia Samsonis : vt furta Haebraeorum : vt adulterium Iacob : Dist. 40. Non nos . In Gloss . It is a sinne , as greate as Sacrilege , or Churche robbinge , to reason of any of the Popes dooinges . For his Actes are excused , as Samsons Murders : as the Iewes Robberies : and as the Aduouteries of Iacob . Petrus de Palude . de Potesta . Papae . Arti. 4. An other saithe , Nec Totus Clerus , nec totus Mundus potest Papam iudicare , aut deponere : Neither al the Cleregie , nor al the whole Worlde , maie either Iudge , or Depose the Pope . And againe , Papa in nullo casu , quamdiu est Papa , Idem eodem loco . propter quodcunque crimen potest deponi , nec à Concilio , nec à rota Ecclesia , nec à toto Mundo : The Pope , while he is Pope , cannot in any case , for any offense by him committed , be deposed , neither by the General Councel , nor by al the Churche , nor by the whole worlde .

And al this they are wel hable to proue by good substantial Authoritie of the Scriptures . In Epistola Nicolai Papae : Inter decreta Adriani Papae . Dist. 21. Inferior . Herueus De Potest . Papae . ca. 20. Concil. Tomo . 1. In purgatione Sixti . For thus they reason , The Scholare is not aboue his Maister : The Seruant is not aboue his Lorde : And againe , The Axe boasteth not it selfe against the Carpenter , that heweth with it : Ergo , no man maie accuse the Pope .

Therefore , an other of youre Doctours saithe : Iudicare de factis Papae , hoc aliqui dicunt esse , Tangere Montem , & ponere os in Coelum : To Iudge of the Popes deedes , this , somme menne saie , is to touche the Holy Mounte ( wherein God gaue the Lawe , & shewed him selfe to Moses ) and to set the face against the Heauens . And the Pope him selfe saithe , It is the Sinne againste the Holy Ghost , whiche shal neuer be forgeuen , neither in this worlde , nor in the worlde to comme .

Thus maie the Pope depose Kinges , and Princes , and trouble the whole state of the worlde , and doo what he liste , without Controlmente . Yet maie no man dare saie vnto him , Sir why doo ye so ? Therefore the Accusers of Pope Symmachus saide in the presence of King Theodoricus , Papa iactat , se vnà cum docendi Potestate , Ennodius . accepisse licentiam peccandi : The Pope maketh his boaste , that togeather with the Power of teachinge , he hathe receiued free libertie to doo il .

Pope Marcellinus , Concil. Tomo . 1. In Marcellino . whose name ye haue alleged , out of the Councel of Sinuessa , for defence hereof , was an Apostata , & had foresaken Christe , and being Pope in Rome , had made Sacrifice vnto Diuels . Al this notwithstandinge , ye saie , no mortal man might accuse him . Thus hath the Pope a Special Prerogatiue , and Premunire , to forsake Christe , and to committe open Idolatrie , and to geeue Honour , and Sacrifice vnto Diuels , without Controlmente .

Yet S. Gala. 2. Cyprian . Ad Quirinum . Paule accused S. Peter , euen vnto his face , in the presence of many . And S. Cyprian saithe , Petrus se non Vindicauit , seu aliquid insolenter assumpsit , vt diceret , se Primatum tenere , & obtemperari sibi à nouellis , & posteris oportere . Peter ( being thus checked openly by S. Paule ) neither reuenged him selfe , nor tooke any thinge proudely vpon him , as to saie , that he had the Primacie , or that others , that were but Nouices , Nicephor . li. 17. cap. 26. and aftercommers ( as Paule was ) ought be obediente vnto him . Mena , the Bishop of Constantinople , iudged , and Excommunicated Pope Vigilius . The Bishoppes of the Easte Churche Iudged , The Emperour receiueth his power of the Pope . and Excommunicated , and deposed Pope Iulius . One of youre Doctoures saithe , Si Papa committat crimen Depositione dignum , debet puniri , ac si esset vnus rusticus : If the Pope committe an offence , wherefore he shoulde iustly be deposed , he ought to be pounished , as if he were a Clowne of the Countrie . Your neighbours of Leodium , Sozomenus , li. 3. cap 11. in their Epistle againste Pope Paschalis , write thus : Remoto Romanae Ambitionis typho , cur de grauibus , & manifestis , non reprehendantur , & corrigantur Romani Episcopi ? Felinus in Repertorio . Dignitas . Qui reprehendi & corrigi non vult , pseudo est , siue Episcopus , siue Clericus : Settinge aparte the Pride of Romishe Ambition , the Crimes beinge greate , and manifeste , why maie not the Bishoppes of Rome bothe be reproued , Concil. Tomo . 2. Epist. Leodien . contra Paschalem Pap. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and also corrected ? He , that fleeth rebuke , and correction , is a false man , whether he be Prieste , or Bishop .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 8.

Whiche of the Ancient Fathers euer saide , that Kinges , and Emperours , by Christes wil , and Commaundemente , receiue their Authoritie at your handes ?

M. Hardinge .

What is to be answered hereto , ‡ ‡ There maie you finde nothinge to proue nothinge . you maie gather of that is alleaged before out of S. Bernard , speaking of bothe swordes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It is euident by the recorde , and general consente of al Ancient Writers , that the Pope hath neither possession , nor foote of Landes , nor House to dwel in , nor the name of Vniuersal Bishop , Nicephor . li. 7. cap 46. nor Chartar , nor Libertie , nor Iurisdiction , but that he hath receiued , either of the French kinges , or of the Emperours . Yet would he now beare the world in hande , Carion . in Bonif. 3 Sabellicus in Phoca . that the Emperoure hath nothing , neither Landes , nor Honour , nor Power , nor Right , nor Swerd , nor Iurisdiction , but onely from him . If any man doubte hereof , bisides other testimonies of Antiquitie , lette him reade that moste vaine , and Childishe Donation , that the Pope him selfe hathe forged , vnder the name of the Emperoure Constantine . Ambrosi . In Lucam . li. 9. ca. 20. S. Ambrose saithe , Si non vis esse obnoxius Caesari , noli habere , quae sunt Mundi . Si habes diuitias , obnoxius es Caesari : If thou wilte not be subiecte to the Prince , then possesse not the thinges , that be of the worlde : If thou have worldly riches , August . In Iohannem , Citatur in Epist. Leodi●n . contra Paschalem Concil. Tomo . 2. Citatur ab Illyrico inter Testes veritatis . Pa. 102. then arte thou subiecte vnto the Prince . Likewise S. Augustine , Dices , Quid mihi , & Regi ? Quid tibi ergo , & possessioni ? Per Iura Regum possessiones possidentur : Thou wilt saie , what haue I to doo with the Prince ? What then haste thou to doo with Landes ? For possessions are holden ( not by the Popes righte , but ) by the right of Kinges , and Princes .

Charles the Frenche kinge , Neuewe to Charles the Greate , wrote thus vnto Pope Adrian : Imperatores ius distinguendorum negotiorum Episcopis Sanctis iuxta Diualia Constituta permiserunt : non autem Episcoporum Villici extiterunt : Emperoures , by their Commissions vnder their greate Seales , haue graunted vnto Bishoppes Authoritie to heare causes : but they them selues were neuer Stewardes , or Bailifes vnto Bishoppes . One of your owne late Doctours saithe , Herueus De Potest . Papae . ca. 18. Papa habet gladium ( Ciuilem ) ex Commissione , & permissione Principis : The Pope hathe the Temporal Swerde , or Ciuile Iurisdiction , by the Commission , and Sufferance of the Prince . Therfore it seemeth greate folie to saie , The Prince hath his swerde , or Iurisdiction onely by the Commission of the Pope .

Youre owne Barbarous Glose saithe , Extra . De Maiorita . & Obedt . Vnam Sanctam . In Gloss . Imperator in temporalibus habet Potestatem à solo Deo . Et imperium fuit , antequam Apostolatus esset . The Emperoure in Temporal thinges hath his Authoritie ( not from the Pope , but ) from God onely . And the Empiere was , before the Apostles were . Againe , Imperator non habet gladium à Papa : Sed Imperium est à solo Deo . The Emperour receiueth his power of the Pope . The Emperoure hath not his Swerde of the Pope : but the Empiere is onely from God . Againe , Ex sola electione Principum , dico , verum esse Imperatorem , antequam confirmetur à Papa : I saie , that the Emperoure is a very righte , and perfite Emperoure , by the onely Election of the Princes , Dist. 96. Cum ad Verum . In Gloss . 23. quae . 4. Quaesitum . yea , before he be confirmed by the Pope .

What shal we neede moe witnesses ? Youre very Ceremoniarie of Rome saithe thus , Hoc affirmamus , ante Carolum Magnum , neminem Imperij Romani Coronam ex Manu Romani Pontificis Romae suscepisse : Thus we saie , that before the Emperoure Charles the greate ( that is , for the space of eight hundred yeeres after Christe ) no man euer receiued the Crowne of the Romaine Empiere at Rome , Dist. 96. Cum ad verum . In Gloss Ceremonia . li. 1. Section . 5. ca. 7. Bernardus De Considerat . li. 2. by the Handes of the Bishop of Rome . S. Bernarde hereof thus writeth vnto the Pope : Esto , vt alia quacunque ratione hoc tibi vendices : non tamen Apostolico iure : Nec illud tibi dare , quod non habuit , Petrus potuit : Be it , that ye claime this right by somme other meanes , Yet by the Apostles right ye cannot claime it : Neither coulde Peter geeue you that right , that he himselfe neuer badde .

The Emperoure Ludouicus the fourth saithe thus : Paralipomena Vrspergen . in Ludouico . 4. Mea Potestas non pendet à Papa , sed à Deo immediatè . Et vanum est , quod dici solet , Papam non habere Superiorem : My Power hangeth not of the Pope , but immediatly of God alone . And it is but a peeuishe vaine tale , that they saie , the Pope hath no Superioure . Iohannes Maior saith , Iohan. Maior . 4 Senten . Dist. 20 , quae. 2. Bonifacius Octauus multùm apparenter definiuit , quòd Romanus Pontifex est supra Reges in Temporalibus : quod tamen oculatissimi Theologi dicunt esse falsum : Pope Bonifacius . 8. hath concluded with greate shewe of reason , that , euen in Temporal Causes , the Pope is aboue Kinges . But I maie tel you , the Wisest Diuines saie , Iohan. De Parisijs , De Potesta . Regia , & Papali , cap. 5. it is but a false tale . Iohannes de Parisijs saithe , In Temporalibus , Potestas Saecularis maior est Potestare Spirituali , nec , quoadista , est ei subiecta in aliquo : In Temporal Causes , the Temporal Power is greater then the Spiritual Power , and , touchinge the same , is not subiecte to it in any pointe . Herueus saithe , Si Imperator habet Potestatem suam immediatè à Papa , Ergo , Imperator est Minister Papae : If the Emperoure receiue his Power immediately from the Pope , Herueus De Potesta . Papae . ca. 19. then is the Emperoure the Popes Seruante .

Al these Authorities notwithstandinge , the Pope him selfe saithe , The Emperoure hath no right , nor Authoritie , but onely of him . And , touchinge the laste Obiection of Herueus , that the Emperoure should be the Popes Seruant , he thinketh , it maie be wel admitted without any greate inconuenience . For thus saithe one of his Priuie Counsel , Dist. 98. Si Imperator . In Glos . Iste Romanus Imperator , est Procurator , & Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae . This Romaine Emperoure is ( nothinge els , but ) the Proctoure , and Steward of the Churche of Rome .

Likewise saithe Iohannes de Parisijs , Dicunt , quòd solus Papa est Verus Dominus Temporalium : Iohan. De Pari. De Potest . Regia & Papali . ca. 5. ita vt possit auferre ab alio , quod aliâs suum est : & tenet factum eius , licet peccet . Sed Praelati coeteri , & Principes , non sunt Domini , sed Tutores , Procuratores , & dispensatores : They saie , that onely the Pope is the right Lorde of Temporal Possessions : so , that he maie put any man from his owne . And although he offende in so dooinge , yet his dooinge taketh place . But other Bishoppes , and Princes , be not Lordes , but Ouerseers , Bailifes , and Stewardes .

Therefore Pope Adrian namely thus auanced him selfe aboue the Emperoure Fredericus . 1. Imperator per nos imperat : Vnde haber Imperium . nisi à nobis ? Auentinus . Ecce in Potestate nostra est , vt demus illud , cui volumus : Proptereà constituti sumus à Deo super Gentes , & Regna : vt destruamus , & euellamus , & aedificemus , & plantemus : By meane of vs , the Emperoure is Emperour : For , whence hath he his Empiere , but of vs ? Beholde , it is in our hande , to bestowe the Empiere , vpon whome we liste . And to that ende are we placed by God , ouer Nations , and Kingdomes : that we should destroie , and plucke vp , and builde , and plante . Sutche proude vauntes the Pope maketh of him selfe , without either shame of the worlde , or feare of God .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 9.

Whiche of the Anciente Learned Fathers , The Pope aboue the the Emperoure . with so precise , and Mathematical Limitation , euer surueied , and determined you to be seuentie , and seuen times greater then the Mightiest Kinges ?

M. Hardinge .

Some mery felowe , Clemens Cō . Aposto . li. 2 , Cap. 34. Nazianzen . Ad popul . Nazianzen . De Maiori . & Obedien. Solitae . or other , A pleasant Mathematical Diuinitie whiche thought he might be bolde to speake Mathematically , so he kepte him selfe within compasse , and without iuste reprehension . For where as the spiritual power so farre passeth the Temporal , as the Soule doth excelle the Body , and the Heauens surmounte the Earth , as S. Clement saithe , and Gregorie Nazianzene : * * By this reason , euery simple poore parishe Prieste is seuentie , and seuen times greater then the Emperoure . you shoulde not so greatly be offended with the seuenty and seuen times greater dignitie , and we neede not condemne him as an Heretike , whiche woulde be pleasaunt in his algorisme , especially Ioannes Andreae in the same place referring the mater to the Astronomers .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Somme Mery felowe , I warrante you , ye saie . And thus , nowe in mirthe , nowe in sadnesse , ye haue of longe time mockte the worlde , and forced Kinges and Emperours to be your selaues . Iohan. Andreae . Clemens . As for youre Newe Doctours , Iacke of Andrewe , and Sir Clement , as you euermore cal him , the Apostles felowe , we weighe them none otherwise , then they be worthy . But , touching Gregorie Nazianzene , it is true , that he saith , The Truthe , and Might of Goddes Worde infinitely passeth al wordly Power . But what maketh al this for the Pope , that walloweth onely in his Temporalties , and worldly cares , and as wel in Preachinge Goddes Woorde , and Ministring the Sacramentes , as also in other Spiritual exercises , is as farre inferioure to any meane Prieste , as the Earth is inferioure to the Heauens ?

Howe be it , that it maie appeare , what prety Mirthe ye haue made herewith , one of youre owne Felowes saithe thus : Herueus De Potesta . Papae ca 11. Ecclesiastici debent iudicare per contemptibiles , id est , per Laicos , Secundum tenorem , & debitum Terreni Iuris : The Ecclesiastical Officers , or Bishoppes , ought to iudge by them , that be Vile , and Contemptible , that is to saie , by the Laie Magistrates , according to the tenoure , and order of the Temporal Lawe . Here in your Mirthe , and pleasance , in comparison of your selues , ye cal Princes , and Temporal Magistrates , Vile , and Contemptible .

Againe , Herueus De Potesta Papae . ca. 12. ye saie , Patet , Regnum , siue Regimen Regale non esse acceptum à Deo . Sed ipsum solùm permisit indignatus . Et magis esset acceptum Deo , quòd per solum Papam Mundus in omnibus regeretur : It is plaine , that the state of kingedome , or kingely gouernement came not from God . For God onely suffered it in his anger . And it were more acceptable vnto God , that the whole world were in al thinges gouerned by the Pope alone . It were good , ye should tel vs , whether ye speake this onely in Mirthe , and Game , or els in earneste , and good sadnesse .

Verily , when yee so proudely compare the Pope to the Sonne , and the Emperoure to the Moone , youre meaning is , that , as the Moone hathe no light , but onely from the sonne , so the Emperoure hathe no Authoritie , but onely that he receiueth from the Pope . Isidorus in Glos . in Genesim . Herueus , De Potesta . Papae . ca. 13 Notwithstandinge , in this comparison , Isidorus youre owne Doctour saithe , yee are sowly ouerseene . For thus he writeth , Per Solem intelligitur Regnum , & per Lunam intelligitur Sacerdotium : By the Sonne , is meante Kingely Dignitie , and by the Moone , is meante Priesthoode . Now therefore Iacke Andrewe , youre mery man , by this reckening maie caste youre coumptes backewarde , & saie , The Emperoure is seuentie , and seuen times greater , then the Pope .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 10.

Whiche of the Anciente Fathers euer saide , Constantines Donation . that more ample Authoritie is geeuen to you , then to the residue of the Patriarkes ?

M. Hardinge .

‡ ‡ A whole heape of Vntruthes and forgeries hudl●d togeather . The Fathers of the Nicene councel , by witnes of ‡ Iulius the firste , who then liued . ‡ and those of the Councel of Sardica , ‡ Athanasius , and the Bishops of Aegipt , Thebaida , and Lybia , and the Fathers of certaine other Councelles .

Aboue al other moste specially the firste Christian Emperoure * * Vntruthes , without any worde or shewe of truthe . Constantine the great . Who being fully instructed of the moste godly and learned Bishops of his time , * what authoritie the successour of Peter , had by * commission of our Sauiour Christ , thought good by his * Emperial Commaundemente and decree , to confirme , ratifie , and for his own persone to yelde vnto ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For Syluester was dead long before these maters are imagined to be donne . blessed Syluester then Pope , and to his successours Bishoppes of Rome , the same Authoritie , and Superioritie , not onely ouer Bishoppes and Patriarkes , but also Power and Honour , higher and greater , then that of Kinges , and Emperours . The wordes of * * This solemne Decree is nothinge els , but a solemne folie . his solemne decree in that behalf made , are these , whiche as they are found in sundrie other Greeke writers , so moste plainely in ‡ ‡ For shame : hath the Pope none other Recorde to proue his Chartar by , but onely one poore , hungrie , forged Grecian , that neuer sawe Rome ? Matthaeus Hieromonachus . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Whiche in oure tounge is this mutche to saie . We geeue in decree and commaundemente to al Lordes , and to the Senate of our Empire , that the Bishop of Rome , and the successour of S. Peter chiefe of the Apostles , haue Authoritie and Power in al the worlde more then that of the Empire is , and that he be honoured and worshepped more then the Emperoure , and that he be Head of the foure Patriarchal seates , and that thinges apperteininge to the right faithe , be of him iudged and determined . Iustinian the Emperour likewise made an expresse decree , that the moste holy Pope of the elder Rome ( for these be his very woordes ) be taken , accordinge to the determinations of the holy councels , to be the * * Firste , and principal in Councelles , we confesse : But Lorde and Maister of al other Patriarkes , that woulde be proued . firste and principal of al Bishoppes . It were not hard to alleage mutche more for proufe hereof , of good and sufficient authoritie : but in a matter not doubtfull this may suffise .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This is a folie of al folies . Yet is there no folie so greate , but by wordes and countenance it maie be maineteined . It shameth , me to bestowe woordes herein : and so mutche the more , for that you saie , the case is so cleare , and out of doubte . I assure you , M. Harding , of al other your innumerable Louanian vanities , concerning the practise of the Churche , & storie of time , this one vanitie is the vainest .

But leste any man , by Simplicitie , or Ignoraunce shoulde be deceiued , not vnderstanding the Mysteries of this Donation , or Chartar , by the iudgement of your owne Doctours , Herueus de Potestate Papae , Cap. 19. the meaninge thereof is this : Volunt aliqui quòd ratione huius Doni , Papa est Imperator , & Dominus Mundi : & quòd potest Reges instituere , & Destituere , sicut Imperator : Somme thinke , that by force , and vertue of this Donation , the Pope is the Emperoure , and the Lorde of the Worlde : And that hereby he hath Power bothe to set vp , and also to put downe Kinges , as an Emperoure .

The Fable hereof is so peeuishe , that the wiseste , and beste learned of youre very frendes , Platyna , Cardinal Cusanus , Marsilius Patauinus , Laurentius Valla , Antoninus Florentinus , Otho Frisingensis , Hieronymus Paulus Catalanus , Volaterranus , Mullinaeus , and others haue openly reproued it vnto the worlde , and haue written againste it , and are mutche ashamed of youre folies .

And , to allege one in steede of many , Cardinal Cusanus hereof hath written thus : Donationem Constantini diligenter expendens , reperi ex ipsamet Scripture . manifesta argumenta Confictionis & Falsitatis : Constantines Donation . Aduisedly weighinge this Donation , or Graunte of constantine , Nicolaus Cusanus , de Concordantia Catholica , lib. 3 cap. 2. Ni. Cusa . eodem loco . ( whereby the Pope claimeth al his Temporal power ) euen in the penninge thereof , I finde manifeste tokens of falsehed , and forgerie .

Againe he saithe , Sunt , meo iudicio , illa de Constantino , Apocrypha : Sicut etiam fortassis quaedam alia longa , & magna scripta Sanctis , Clementi , & Anacleto Papae ascripta . Ipsae enim Epistolae , applicatae ad tempus illorum Sanctorum , seipsas produnt : By my iudgement these Chartars of Constantine are forged : as perhaps are also other lo●ge , and greate Letters , that beare the name of S. Clemente , and Pope Anacletus . For the Letters them selues , applied vnto the time of these Holy Fathers , betraie them selues .

Againe , Dist. 98. Constantinus . the same graunte of Constantine , euen in Gratian the Popes owne Register , is founde onely in the Palea , and not in the Original allowed texte . And in many Olde Bookes , that haue no Glose , it is not founde . And in the Glose vpon the same it is noted thus , Palea ista non legitur in Scholis : in qua continetur Priuilegium , Glosa ●odem loco . quod Constantinus concessit Romanae Ecclesiae : Scilicet , vt Primatum inter omnes Ecclesias obtineret : This patche is not read in the Scholes : wherin is conteined the Priuilege , that Constantinus the Emperour graunted to the Churche of Rome : that is to saie , that the saide Churche should haue the Soueraintie ouer al Churches .

And , Pius . 2. in dialog. to put the mater oute of doubte , euen Pope Pius him selfe thereof saithe thus , Dicta palea Constantinus , falsa est : The saide , that so beginneth , Constantinus , is starke false . Felinus de Maioritate & Obedien. Solitae . Colum. 3. Whereunto Felinus your canoniste addeth these woordes : Et inuehit contra miseros Legistas , qui laborant in disputando , an valuerit id , quod nunquam fuit : And the same Pope Pius rageth earnestly againste the poore Lawiers , for that they take sutche paines to reason , whether that thinge maie be good , and auailable in Lawe , that neuer was made .

And againe , the same Doctoures , In vita Syluestri . Herueus de potesta . Papae . ca. 19 . that woulde seeme moste frendely and fauourably to speake of this Donation , by their owne iudgemente , doo quite condemne it . For thus they saie , In , Donatione illa audita est Vox Angelorum in aëre dicentium , Hodiè Venenum effusum est in Ecclesiam : At the time of the Confirminge , and passinge of this Donation , there was a Voice of Angelles hearde in the aire , saieinge , This daie Poison is powred into the Churche .

Briefely , to touche somme parte of the Contentes , and Substance of the same , the foolishe Body , that forged it , was so simple , that he knewe not , whether Constantinople stoode in the ●aste from Rome , or in the Northe : Whether Byzance were a Cittie , or a Countrie : Whether the Emperial Diademe were made of Silke , or of Goulde . He telleth a tale of the Patriarke of Constantinople , that he should be ●oner , and buxom to the Bishop of Rome : and yet at that time , when , as he imagineth , this Graunte was made , the Cittie of Constantinople was not builded , nor and sutche name as yet knowen in the worlde .

And yet is the Marginal Glose hereupon , as good , and as substantial , as the Texte . Concil. Tomo . 1. pag. 227. For , where as the Texte saithe , Contradimus Beato Syluestro phrygium nostrum , id est , mitram : Wee deliuer vnto Blessed Syluester our phrygium , that is to saie , our Miter , there shal you finde this prety note in the Margine ,

Nota , Phrygium . quo'd Phrygium factum est ex pennis pauonum : Marke wel , that this Phrygium , or Miter , was made of a Pecockes taile . No doubte , a worthy gifte for an Emperoure : and a meete Miter for a Pope . But , as I saide before , it ●●ameth me , in so Childishe a Fable , to stande so longe .

As for youre Greeke Doctour Hieromonachus , he shal be stalled togeather with youre Clemens , Leontius , Amphilochius , and other like youre worthy and Weightie Doctours . Constantines Donation . For shame , what shoulde ye bringe vs this one sely poore Greeke witnesse , whoes name yee neuer hearde before , to testifie of Grauntes and Conueiances made in Rome ? Can youre Pope finde out neither Councel , nor Doctour , nor Father , nor any other Writer of likely recorde , to healpe him in so greate a case , but onely one poore raskal Graecian , that knewe no more of the mater , then you youre selues ? It bewraiethe the needinesse of youre cause . He that durste so lewdely to falsifie sutche a Graunte , thereby to intrude him selfe into the possession of the Empiere , woulde not blusshe to falsifie somme Beggerly Witnesse , to auouche the same .

Nowe , where yee woulde seeme to saie , the other Foure Patriarkes stoode euermore at the Commaundemente of the Bishop of Rome : not onely the saide three Patriarkes , whiche neuer neither yeelded , nor knewe any sutche Obedience , but also the general practise of the worlde wil soone reproue you .

Nilus a Greke Writer saithe , Nilus De primatu Romani Pontificis . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Vt liquidi●s appareat , Papam non imperare alijs omnibus Episcopis , legatur Sextus Canon Synodi Nicenae , quo disertè praecipitur , vt alijs Ecclesiis Alexandrinus , alijs Romanus , alijs Antiochenus praesit : Vt non liceat alteri , alterius prouinciam inuadere : That it maie wel and plainely appeare , that the Pope hathe no Power or Gouernemente ouer al other Bishoppes , reade the Sixthe Canon of the Nicene Councel . There it is expressely Commaunded , that the Bishop of Alexandria shal haue the rule ouer certaine Churches , and the Bishop of Rome ouer certaine , and the Bishop of Antioche likewise ouer certaine : And that it shal not be laweful for any one of them , to inuade the Jurisdiction of an other .

The Emperoure Iustinian saithe , Ecclesia Vrbis Constantinopolitanae Romae Veteris praerogatiua laetatur : Cod. De Sacrosan . Eccle. Omni innouatione . Nicephorus , li. 12 cap. 13. The Churche of the Cittie of Constantinople enioieth nowe the prorogatiue of Rome the Elder . Nicephorus saithe , Romano & Constantinopolitano Episcopo ex aequo paria sunt & dignitatis praemia , & honorum iura : The title of dignitie , and right of honoure , geeuen to the Bishop of Rome , and the Bishop of Constantinople are one , and equal .

So likewise it was determined by Decree in the Councel of Constantinople : Definimus Sedi Constantinopolitanae paria Iura , Concil. Constant . 2. cap. 36. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . & Priuilegia cum Sede Veteris Romae : Wee decree , that the See of Constantinople shal haue Rightes , and Priuileges equal with the See of Olde Rome . Therefore , as it is saide before , Gennadius , togeather with the Councel of Constantinople , wrote thus vnto the Bishop of Rome : Cures Sanctitas tua Vniuersas tuas Custodias , tibique Subiectos Episcopos : Gennadius ad omnes Metropolitanos , & ad Papam Roman . Cyprian ad Cornelium . Let your Holinesse see vnto al youre owne Cures , and to the Bishoppes , that be subiecte vnto you .

S. Cyprian , Cyrillus , Athanasius , and others , writing , either of , or vnto the Bishop of Rome , cal him , not their Lorde and Maister , vnto whom of duetie they ought Obedience , but their Brother , and their Felowe Seruaunte . Yea the Pope him selfe , in some cases , hathe rather offered his Obedience vnto other Bishoppes . Athanasius ad Epi. Aphricanos . Epistola Liberij ad Athanasium . For thus writeth Pope Liberius vnto Athanasius the Bishop of Alexandria : Quaeso vt huic confessioni subscribas , vt ego securior efficiar , & tua mandata inhaesitanter obeam : I beseche thee to subscribe to this Confession , that I maie be out of doubte , and maie doo youre Commaundementes without grudginge .

Yet nowe the Bishop of Rome , to mainteine his title by a Write of Right , for as mutche as the foure principal Patriarkes of the worlde haue forsaken him , appointeth out Foure of his ordinarie Chaplens , and geeueth them the names of foure Patriarkes : The first for Constantinople : the seconde for Alexandria : the thirde for Antioche : the fourthe for Hierusalem . And thus , hauing these foure at Commaundemente , in his pleasante fau●●e , he ruleth , and gouerneth the whole worlde . In sutche a solemne brauerie , the greate Cham of Tartarie at this daie , after he hath dined him selfe , The Pope is God . soundeth out a trumpet , and geeueth al the kinges , and Emperours of the worlde leaue to goe to dinner : and in this imagination , and ioilitie , he continueth his claime to the possession of al the worlde , euen by as good right and Title , as doothe the Pope . And when so euer the Pope him selfe , in his owne personne , openly , and solemnely saithe his Masse , he commaundeth the Gospel , and Epistle to bee readde in Greeke . Whereupon his owne Maister of Ceremonies saithe thus : Ceremonia . li. 3. cap. 7. Hanc consuetudinem hinc ortam puto , vt appareat Romanam Ecclesiam in se continere Vtramque Gentem : Hereof , I thinke , this Custome firste proceeded , that hereby it maie appeare , that the Churche of Rome conteineth in it Bothe Nations . Antoni . in Summa . par. 3. tit. 22. cap. 6. Artic. 4. Diui. 8. Artic. 4 ▪ Diui. 7. Al this notwithstanding , Antoninus saithe , Hoc Graeci non credunt . For al this , the Greekes beleue it not .

The obiections of Iustinian , and of the Councel of Sardica , are answeared in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 11.

Whiche of the Anciente Holy Fathers euer called you Lorde , and God ?

M. Hardinge .

None that wise is , so speaketh absolutely : neuerthelesse in some certaine sense , S. * * A vaine forgerie . Clement calleth euery Bishop . Terrenum quendam Deum , a certaine earthly God , as it is written , ‡ ‡ These wordes are spoken of Princes and Magistrates . I haue saide , ye are Gods , &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

So that yee make not the Pope an Absolute God , ye thinke , ye maie otherwise cal him God safely , and without preiudice . A proper shifte , to mainteine a vaine man in the possession of his Godhed . Hierony . In Daniel . cap. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Suetonius in Domitiano Suetonius . Pompon . Laetus . Athenaeus , li. 7. Chrysost. De Spi. Sancto . August . Contra Faustum li. 13. cap. 17. Euse . li 2. ca. 13. In sutche a pleasant imagination Antiochus sommetime the king of Syria , intituled him selfe by the name of God . So the Emperoure Domitian vsed to assigne his Proclamations : Dominus Deus vester Domitianus : Youre Lorde God Domitian . So the Emperoure Caligula called him selfe , Deum optimum Maximum , & Iouem Latialem : The Beste , and moste mighty God , and the greate God Iuppiter of Italie : So Sapores , the great king of Persia , called him selfe , Fratrem Solis , & Lunae : The brother of the Sonne , and the Moone : So the peeuishe Physician Menecrates called him selfe Iuppiter : So Nicostratus called him selfe Hercules : So Nicagoras made him selfe a paire of whinges , and would needes be called the God Mercurius : So Manichaeus the Heretique called him selfe the Holy Ghoste : So the Romaines in olde times erected vp an Image in the honour of Simon Magus the Sorcerer , with this Inscription , or Posee , Simoni Sancto Deo : In the honoure of Simon the Holy God . By this youre so handesome Distinction , M. Hardinge , of God Absolute , and God not Absolute , I see not , but euery of these might wel , and safely haue maineteined his title without blame .

Certainely , Dist. 96. Satis euidenter . Christopher . Marcel . In Conc. Latera . Sess. 4. Cardillus pro Concil. Trident. in this arrogante vanitie , scarcely any of al these was euer comparable to the Pope . Pope Nicolas saithe , Constat Summum Pontificem à Pio Principe Constantino Deum appellatum . It is wel knowen , that the Pope , of the godly Prince Constantine , was called God . Likewise the Pope was wel content , to suffer one of his Parasites to saie vnto him , in the late Councel of Laterane , Tu es alter Deus in terris : Thou arte an other God in Earthe . Likewise Cardillus the Spaniard in Defence of the Popes La●e Chapter at Trident , oftentimes calleth the Popes late Chapter at Tridente , oftentimes calleth the Pope Terrenum Deum , An Earthely God : By the same style , and right , whereby Holophernes sometime saide , Iudith . 5. Nobuchodonosor est Deus Terrae : Nabuchodonosor is the God of the Earth .

Vpon the Popes owne Clementines , yée shal finde the mater thus taken vp , & qualified with greate indifferencie , and modestle , and thus specially noted in the Margine : * * The Pope is neither God , nor Man . Our Lorde God the Pope . Papa nec Deus est , nec Homo . And , to leaue other his like blasphemo●● , & fond styles , Extrauag. Iohan . 22. Cum Inter . In Glossa . Impress . Lugduni . An. 1555. Parisijs . 〈◊〉 n. 1513. 2 Thessalon . 2. Gregor. in Iob. Ca. 34. Li 25. Ca. 14. Anselmus in . 2. Thessalon . 2. in an other like Glose yée shal finde it written thus , Credere , Dominum Deum Nostrum Papam non potuisse statuere , prout statuit , Haereticum censeretur : To beleeue , that Our Lorde God the Pope might not decree , as he decreed , it were a mater of Heresie . Here haue we founde by expresse , & plaine woordes , euen in the Popes owne Authentical , and allowed Booke , Our Lorde God the Pope .

These thinges might seeme vncredible , had not S. Paule foretolde vs , that the Man of Sinne should sit in the Temple of God , and shewe him selfe , as if he were God . S. Gregorie , writinge of Antichriste , saithe thus , Cùm sit damnatus Homo , & nequaquam Spiritus , Deum se esse mentitur : Whereas he is a damned man , and not a Spirite , by lieinge , he faineth him selfe to be God . Anselmus saithe , Simulabit se Religiosum , vt sub specie decipiat Pietatis : Imò se Deum esse dicet : & se Adorari faciet : atque regna Coelorum promittet : Antichriste shal faine him selfe to be Holy , that he maie deceiue menne vnder the Coloure of Holinesse . Yea , and he shal cal him selfe God : and shal cause him selfe to be woorshipped : and shal promise the Kingdome of Heauen . Eusebius saith , Eusebius de Praeparat . Li. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hoc est Argumentum , eos odisse Deum , quo'd velint seipsos appellari Deos : This is a token that they hate God , for that they wil haue them selues called by the name of God .

Likewise saith the Ancient Father Irenaeus , Antichristus existens Apostata , & Latro , quasi Deus , vult Adorari : & cùm sit Seruus , Regem se vult praeconiari : Antichriste , beinge a Renegate , and a Theefe , yet wil be woorshipped as a God : and beinge but a slaue , yet he wil be Proclaimed , and published , as a Kinge . Therefore , although the Pope be not , as you saie , an Absolute God , or an Absolute Christe , yet without any great inconuenience , I trowe , he maie wel be an Absolute Antichriste .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 12.

Whiche of the Anciente Holy Fathers euer saide , that you are not a mere Natural man , but a certaine Substance made , & growen togeather , of God and Man ?

M. Hardinge .

Can you bring him before his face , A fainte ercuse . that shall saie so vnto him ? I warrant you ( ma●ster Defender ) he shal either be reproued for his flattering , or proued to vnderstande no more by it , then * * A certaine Diuine Power in the Pope . a certaine diuine power aboue the Naturall state of men , ‡ ‡ A soare pounishemente for open Blasphemie . or warned , that he be more circumspecte in his glosinge , when Heretikes are ready to slaunder the whole Churche , because of one Priuate mans affection .

The B. of Sacrisburie .

He that maie cal him selfe , Lorde , and God , maie easily Claime him selfe to be more , In Sexto : De Electione , & Elect . Fundamenta , In Glossa . Clemen . In Prooe●io . In Glossa . then a man . In the Popes owne Decretalles , it is noted thus in the Margine , Papa non est Homo : The Pope is not a Man . Your Glose vpon the Popes owne clementines , allegeth these woordes out of one of your allowed Poëtes , Papa stupor Mundi : The Pope is the Woonder of the Worlde . And againe , Nec Deus es , nec Homo : quasi neuter es inter Vtrunque ●hou arte neither God , nor Man : In a manner Thou arte neither of bothe : but rather a meane bitweene bothe .

By the Authoritie of this Doctoure , it appeareth , that the Pope is neither God , nor Man . Angel , I trowe , he is not . What other Creature ye maie make of him , I leaue to you further , to consider .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 13.

Whiche of the Anciente Fathers euer saide , that you are the onely Headspringe of al Lawes ?

M. Hardinge .

Whsoeuer saithe it , speaketh not without euident reason , consideringe that of the Principall of euery gouernement , all lawes belonginge to the same , be deducted and deriued .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here haue ye brought vs a ful simple reason , as God knoweth . But to haue brought vs somme Authoritie of Doctoure , or Councel , it had benne better .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 14.

Whiche of the Anciente Fathers euer saide , that you haue Power ouer Purgatorie ?

M. Hardinge .

* * No doubte , it were a woorthy mater . Wisely . O that ye would firste beleue a Purgatorie , and then shoulde ye vnderstande , what dispensation of loosing and bindinge is committed to the Vicare of Christe . Esai . 7. For , as Esaie saithe , Excepte ye beleue , ye shal not vnderstande : and the consequent doctrine must needes be obscure , as longe as the principall grounde thereof is wickedly denied .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Of your Purgatorie fantasies , wee haue sufficiently saide before . Where ye wishe , wee woulde beleue , there is a Purgatorie , Verily wee beleue constantly , what so euer God hath willed vs to beleue . Roman. 10. S. Paule saithe , Faithe commeth by hearinge : Hearinge commeth by the Woorde of God : and thereby onely is Faithe directed . As for your Folies , & Mockeries , thei are subiecte to Fansie , and not to Faithe . August . de Tempore Sermon . 145. Feria . 3. Paschat . August . in quaestiont● . veteris Tes●am quae. 43. S. Augustine saith , Nemo de Christo credat , nisi quod de se credi voluit Christus : Let no man beleue of Christe , but that , that Christe hath commaunded him to beleeue of Christe . Againe he saith , Constat Fidem stultam non prodesse , sed potiùs obesse : It is certaine , that Foolishe Faithe doothe no good , but rather burteth . Notwithstanding though al your Listes , & gaineful Territories of Purgatorie were fully graunted , yet should it be very harde for you to proue , either by Scripture , or by Doctoure , that the Pope beareth any greater Authoritie , or swea there , to commaunde in , or out at his pleasure , then any other simple Priste . Al be it , one of your allowed Doctours saithe , Augelus Parisiensis . Purgatorium est peculium Papae : Purgatorie is the peculiare possession of the Pope .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 15.

Whiche of the Anciente Fathers euer saide , that you are hable to Commaunde the Angels of God , as ye liste your selfe ?

M. Hardinge .

Nor olde Father , * * Vntruthe manifeste , As shal appeare . nor newe Doctour . And what so euer he be , that shal so tell you , beleue him not . He speaketh not Catholikely : and you must make no scruple in suche matters .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , at laste , M. Hardinge , for shame , yée are faine to yeelde . No Doctoure , ye saie , euer thus saide , neither Olde , nor Newe . How be it , hereto ye haue laide a very special exception : If any man haue so saide , saie ye , what so euer he were , he spake not Catholikely . And yet againe ye tel vs further , How so euer it be , we should neuer be scrupulous in suche matters .

But what if the Pope him selfe , The Popes power ouer the Angelles of God . the Father of al Fathers , and Doctoure of al Doctours , bothe Newe , and Olde , haue not blusshed to saie the same ? Maie wee saie , as you saie , The Pope him selfe was not Catholique ? Or , if wée so saie , wil you beleeue it ?

In déede , Kinge Xerxes , the greate Kinge of Persia , when he had brought ouer his huge Armie into Graecia , sente out his letters of defiance vnto the greate Mounte Athos , Herodotus . that is in Macedonia , & commaunded him to stande stil , and not to st●rre a foote , nor to woorke any pispleasure , either to him selfe , or to his Armie . Euen by like Authoritie , and with as good discretion , the Pope hath vsed to sende out his Preceptes , & Princely Letters , and to commaunde Angels , Archangels , & al the Powers of Heauen , to comme , to goe , to fetche , to carrie , & to be ready to doo his wil. Therefore is he the better contente , to heare his frendes tel him thus , Tibi data est omnis potestas , In Concil. Lateranen . Sub Leo●ne . 10. Sess. 10. Extra . De Constitutionib . Statuta Canonum . Felin . Felinus eodem loco . supra omues potestates , tam Coeli , quàm terrae . Qui totum dicit , nihil excludit : To thee is geeuen al manner of Power , aboue al Powers , as wel of Heauen , as of Earthe . He that saithe , Al , excepteth nothinge .

Felinus your Doctoure saith thus , Nedum Circa Coelestia , Terrestria , & Infernalia papa gerit Vicariatum Christi , sed etiam super Angelos , Bonos , & Malos : The Pope hath Christes Lieutenantship , not onely ouer thinges in Heauen , ouer thinges in Earthe , and ouer thinges in Hel , but also ouer the Angels , bothe Good , and Badde .

Innocentius the Pope him selfe saithe , Vicario Creatoris omnis creatura Subiecta est : Vnto the Creatours Lieutenante euery Creature is subiecte . Your owne Doctoure Antoninus , Autonin . in Sum. par. 3. Titu . 22. Cap. 5. ante §. the Archebishop of Florence , saith , Potestas Papae maior est omni alia potestate creata , aliquo modo extendens se ad Coelestia , Terrestria , & Infernalia : vt de ea verificari possit , quod dictum est , Omnia Subiecisti sub pedibus eius : The Popes Power is greater , then any other power , that God euer made : and after a sorte stretcheth it selfe vnto thinges i● Heauen , thinges in Earth , and thinges in Hel : so that , of that Power the woordes maie be verified , that are written by the Prophete Dauid , Agrippa de vanitate Scientiarum . Thou haste made al thinges subiecte to his fecte . Camotensis saithe , Papa Angelis praecipit , & potestatem habet in Mortuos : The Pope commaundeth the Angels ( of God ) , and hath power ouer the Deade . Gregorius Haimburgensis saithe , Vt termiuis v●ar suorum Adulatorum , Gregor. Haimburgen . in Appellatione sigismundi Ducis Austriae . Veselus . Agrippa de Vanita . Scientia● . Papa Angelis habet imperare : To vse the woordes of his Platterers , the Pope hath Power to commaunde the Angelles . Therefore , if any man happen to die vpon the waie , as he passeth in Pilgremage to Rome , Pope Clemente . 6. commaundeth the Angelles of God , to be at hande , and to carrie his soule immediately into Heauen .

Hereto , and to al other the like , M. Hardinge saithe , These Popes , these Doctours , these Fathers , these Pages , these Parasites , herein were not Catholique .

Notwithstandinge , he saithe further , If the Pope , for his fansie , take sommewhat vpon him , and sommetimes be a litle ouer bolde with Goddes Angelles , to Commaunde them , and Countremaunde them , at his pleasure , in sutche cases we ought not to be ouer scrupulous .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 16.

Whiche of the Anciente Fathers euer saide , that you are the Lorde of Lordes , and Kinge of kinges ?

M. Hardinge .

He vseth the cleane contrarie Title , callinge himselfe Seruum Seruorum Dei , the Seruante of the Seruantes of God . Yet if he , for the largenesse of his iurisdiction , haue a number of Lordes and Kinges within his folde , In a right good sense . although he himselfe dothe not boast of it , yet in a righte good sense , that Title maie be geuen to him .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Notwithstandinge the Pope cal him selfe the Kinge of Kinges , The Pope Kinge of Kinges . & the Lorde of Lordes : Extra De Maiorit . & Obedientia . Solitae . Dist. 98. Si Imperator . In Glossa . Auentinus in Adriano . Notwithstanding he saie , The Emperour is so far inferiour vnto him , as the Moone is inferioure vnto the Sonne : Notwithstandinge he saie , The Emperoure is but his Bailife , his Stewarde , & his Man : Notwithstandinge he saie , He hath power to set vp , & to put downe Kinges , and Emperours at his pleasure , Yet , saithe M. Hardinge , al this maie be spoken in right good sense : for the Pope vseth a cleane contrarie Title , and calleth him selfe , Seruum Seruorum Dei , The Seruante of Goddes Seruantes . Thus he thinketh it sufficient , to weighe matters onely by Title , and not by Truthe .

How be it , al this is but plaieinge vnder a Visarde . The Diuel seldome theweth his hornes : ● ▪ Corinth. 11. but rather changeth him selfe into an Angel of Lighte . Touching this Title , As the Pope calleth him selfe a Seruante , euen so doothe the Emperoure likewise abase him selfe to the name of a Seruante . If ye doubts hereof , reade your owne Glose vpon your Decretalles . In Decretal . Grego . In prooemio . In Glossa . Extra . de Preben . & Dignitatib . Iohan. 22. Execrabilis . In Glossa . Herueus de Potest . Papae . Ca. 12. The woordes there be these : Etiam Imperator seipsum appellat Seruum : LIkewise againe the same Glose saithe , Papa se seruum appellat , & Imperator vocat se Seruum Vltimum Ecclesiae : The Pope calleth him selfe a Seruante , and the Emperoure calleth him selfe the vilest Seruante of the Churche .

Al this is nothinge els , but a politique kinde of dissimulation , and Hypocris●e . For if these be Seruantes , I praie you then , whoe be Lordes ?

Herueus , one of your owne Doctours , hereof saithe thus , Dicere , quo●d talia dicum Summi Pontifices ex Humilitate , est omni● o' perniciosum . Et hoc est ponere os in Coelum . Philosophus dicit , hoc esse peccatum Ironiae , quod opponitur virtuti . Et addit , tales humiles non esse virtuosos , sed timidos , & blanditores . Et Augustinus ait , August de Verbis Apostoli . Cùm Humilitatis causa mentiris , si non eras peccator antequàm mentireris , mentiendo peccator efficeris : To saie , that the Popes speake these woordes of Humilitie , it were very hurteful . And this is , To set the face against the Heauens . Aristotle saithe , this is the ●●nne of Dissimulation , or Hypocrisie , whiche is contrarie vnto vertue . And saithe further , that sutche humble menne are not vertuous , but feareful , and flatteringe . And S. Augustine saithe , when so euer thou speakest vntruthe vnder the coloure of Humilitie , if thou were not a sinner before , yet by tellinge vntruthe thou arte made a Sinner .

Good Reader , pul of this painted Visarde : & vnder this vaine Title of , Seruant of Seruantes , thou shalt finde a Lorde of Lordes . For proufe hereof , thus the Pope him selfe saith : Neither Emperoure ▪ nor Kinge maie iudge the Pope . Epistola Nicolat Papae , Inter Decreta Adriant Papae . Concil. tomo . 1 ▪ In purgatione Sixti . And his reason is this , Non est Seruus supra Dominum : For ( the Emperoure beinge a ) Seruante , in not aboue ( the Pope , that is ) his Lorde . Thus yée sée , he that so humbly calleth him selfe the Seruante of Seruantes , if ye touche him , or anger him , wil suddainely change him selfe into the Kinge of Kinges , and Lorde of Lordes . For in these woordes he plainely , & expressely calleth the Emperoure the Seruante , and him selfe the Lorde . And , what so euer he saide to the contrarie , verily the Popes Exposition muste néedes be more Authentical , then M. Hardinges .

He maketh the Emperoure to holde his Stitope : He maketh the Emperoure to leade his Bridle : He maketh the Emperoure to kisse his Foote : He maketh the Emperoure to lie downe grouelinge , Doct. Bonner in Praefa . in Libel . Stephani Gardineri De Vera Obedientia . and setteth his foote on his necke : And yet stil calleth him selfe , The Seruante of Seruantes . Fewe good Seruantes wil be to homely with their Maisters . Doctoure Bonner saithe thus , Notwithstandinde the Pope be a very Roueninge Woulfe , dressed in Sheepes clothinge , yet he calleth him selfe , The Seruante of Seruantes .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 1.

We canne also goe further with you in like sorte . What one , amongest the whole numbre of the olde Bishoppes and Fathers , euer taught you either to saie Priuate Masse , whiles the people stared on , or to lifte vp the Sacramente ouer your heade , in which pointes consisteth nowe al your Religion : Or els to mangle Christes Sacramentes , and to bereue the people of the one parte , contrarie to Christes Institution , and plaine expresse woordes ? But that wee maie once come to an ende : What one is there of al the Fathers , whiche hath taught you to distribute Christes Bloude , and the Holy Martyrs Merites , and to selle openly your Pardons , and al the roomes and lodginges of Purgatorie , as a gaineful kinde of marchandise ?

M. Hardinge .

Your obiections of Priuate Masse , of liftinge vp the blessed Sacramente , of ministringe the Communion vnder one Kinde , be as common with you , as Life be with Beggars , and lies with Heretikes . For in deede your questions be but beggarly and hereticall . Touching the same . I haue saide ‡ ‡ Note , that M. Hardinge , in his saide three Articles of Answeare to M. Iewel , hath publisshed threescoare and nico● greate Vntruthes . so muche in roy answeare to M Iuell your nearest frende his Chalenge ▪ as here to rehearse it againe , Article . 1. 7. 2. it is needelesse . You maie seeke it there . The Doctrine of pardons I iudge verily you vnderstande not . Here is no oportunitie to discusse it . The full treatise of the same requiringe a longe processe , maie wel to an other time be differred . Fol. 117. Of Purgatorie I haue saide some deale here before . These be the matters , wherein you and your ignorant felow ministers gladly shewe your vile railinge , and scoffinge eloquence . Yet concerninge the doctrine of pardons * * And al the same is lesse then nothinge . least I saie nothinge , this much I haue thought good to saie here .

In the Sacramente as wel of Baptisme , as of penaunce , al the bandes of sinne are loosed , and the whole euerlastinge paine due to sinne is forgeuen . At Baptisme no temporall paine is enioyned to vs , because Christe moste freely bestoweth the benefite of his death vpon vs at that our firste entrie into the Churche . ‡ ‡ A Doctrine ful of sondrie blasphemies . But if afterwarde we abuse his mercie , returninge againe to filthy sinne , Christe would our seconde , thirde , and al other reconciliations from thence foorth , to be with due satisfaction , not of his dreadful angre , ( whiche onely his bloude , and the Sacrament of penaunce , by due contrition and confession in deede or in vowe receiued , is able to remoue ) but with satisfaction of such temporal paine , as his mercifull iustice required bothe of all others from the beginninge , and * * Kinge Dauid alleged for proufe of Pardonnes . namely of Kinge Dauid : ● ▪ Reg. 12. To whome confessinge his faulte Nathan saide , Our Lorde hath put a way thy Sinne , thou shalte not die . Beholde the forgeuenesse of the mortal sinne , and of the euerlastinge paine due to the same . But yet so is it forgeuen , that withal it is transferred into a temporal satisfaction . What was that ? It foloweth in the storie , that bicause Dauid through his aduoutrie and murther had caused the ennemies of God to blaspheme his holy name , the childe borne of the wife of Vrias should surely die . And so it came to passe . If the death of a Sonne be so greuous a punishment to a good Father , that King Dauid was content to praie , to faste , to lie on the grounde , afflicting him selfe seuen daies , onely to trie whether he might as it were by exchaunge bie out the death of his Sonne , and yet so could not obteine his desire : we may be most certaine , that the very best frendes of God , sinning after Baptisme ( or circuncision , whiche in the olde lawe stode in place thereof ) muste by ordinary course sarisfie with some temporall affliction that iuste iudgement of our merciful Make and Redeemer , if farther grace be not founde by some other waie . This satisfaction hath benne therefore iustly called the thirde and last parte of penaunce . Whiche if it be not fulfilled in this life , vndoubtedly it shal be straightly exacted in the worlde to come in the fire of Purgatorie . For that sinnes maye be in an other worlde forgeuen to those who die not in the deadly bondes of them , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe auouched vpon Christe . See the Answeare . our Sauiour hath geuen vs to vnderstande , Matth. 22. sayinge , That the sinne against the Holy Ghost shal not be forgeuen , neither in this worlde nor in the worlde to come , whereof it appeareth that somme other Sinnes may be forgeuen in the worlde to come .

Well , this satisfaction may notwithstanding be fulfilled more then one waie . For a man beinge once by the Sacrament of penaunce iustly reconciled to the mystical Body of Christe , which is his Church , wherein ( as the Prophete saithe ) a faithfull man is made partaker of al that feare God and keepe his commaundementes : Psal. 118. we haue in that bande of peace suche an vnitie of Spiriie communicated to vs al , that the defect of one may be in spirituall causes * * A folie passinge al other folies . supplied out of the plenty of all others his felowe membres , Galat. 6. accordinge as the Apostle saithe , ‡ ‡ A texte ful wisely applied to prooue Pardonnes . Beare ye one an others burdens . And because the Head ( whiche is Christe ) is the chiefe membre of all , and farre more then all the rest , such influence is from him deriued throughout his mysticall Body , that euen his death may as well inwardely by charitie , as outwardly by another waie also be applied to vs for the pardoninge of that temporal satisfaction , which after the Sacrament of penaunce is lefte vnforgeuen . And that is by such authoritie , as Christ gaue to Peter , saying : Matth. 16. To thee I will geue the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen , and what so euer thou bindest in Earth , it shal be bounde also in Heauen , and what so euer thou * * O Fonde man , Christe saithe , What so euer thou loosest in Earthe , and not in Purgatorie . loosest in Earth , it shall be loosed also in Heauen . Lo , what so euer Peter looseth in earth , it shall be loosed in the sight of God . If therefore the Pope , who succedeth Peter , do by iuste cause loose not onely the mortall Sinne by the sacrament of penaunce , but also the bande of Temporall paine , whiche remaineth yet due to to the Sinne : it is vndoubted , that suche paine is loosed in the sighte of God . The cause of loosinge must be , not onely the will of the Pope ( who is put in Authoritie to builde , and not to destroy : to dispense , and not to lauishe ) but a reasonable change or recompence substituted in that behalfe , suche as apperteineth to the Honour of God ; or to the profite of soules : As mainteininge warr and fightinge against infidels for the defence of Christendome , recouery of the Sepulchre of Christe , succouringe widowes , Orphanes , or other poore persons , the buildinge or mainteininge of Holy places , the visitinge of Prisons and Martyrs toumbes , or any like Deuout and Charitable deedes . Whiche whiles the faithfull Christian dothe obediently performe ( although otherwise the thinge enioyned be not great ) he may obteine remission also of that temporall satisfaction , whiche was left in penaunce vnremitted . This kinde of Pardon S. Paule gaue to that notorious sinner , 1. Cor. 5. who at Corinth had his Fathers wife , and was for that faulte separated from the Churche of God , to be afflicted temporally in his fleashe . But when the Corinthians had informed S. Paule of his earnest and true repentance , and had shewed their owne fauour and good willes towarde him : 2. Cor. 2. the Apostle answeareth , Whome yee forgeue ought , I also ( forgeue ) for I also in that I haue forgeuen , if I haue forgeuen ought , for your sakes in the person of Christe , I haue forgeuen it . Well , we are assured the Apostle speaketh of forgeuinge such afflictions , as the partie was in , by reason he was deliuered out of the defence of holy Church , to that state , where the Deuill , In. 1. Cor. 5. Hom. 15. as S. Chrysostome vpon that place noteth , Pro solutione Peccatorum , for payment of his Sinnes , might vexe him : and wherein suche persons beinge put to their penaunce , vsed to remaine for a certaine space of moneths or yeeres , vntill their penaunce were done and expired . Now the reconcilinge of the man not yet hauing done due satisfaction before his ordinary time , is a pardon . Which the Apostle saithe , he dothe geue in the person of Christe , as hauinge auctoritie of him to doo it : and for the Corinthians sakes , as who were able by their Holy Praiers and common sorowe ( whereof the Apostle speaketh ) to make recompence for that whiche lacked on the behalfe of his owne satisfaction . If this muche doo not satisfie any man , And thus M. Hardinge awaked out of his dreame . desiringe to be fully resolued herein , let him resorte to the Latine woorkes of the Holy and learned Bishop of Rochester .

The B. of Sarisburie .

These obiections , ye saie in your pleasante homely comparison , are as common with vs , as Life with Beggars . And yet to my remembrance , neither you● Priuate Masse , nor your Halfe Communion was euer touched in this whole Apologie , more then once , before this place : the Liftinge vp , or Shewinge of the Sacramente , not once at al. ye shoulde haue weighed your aduantages better , M. Hardinge , before ye thus bestowed your lothesome quarrels .

But thought you in déede , The Popes Pardonnes . M. Hardinge , I wil not saie , as you saie , that with so Lowsy , and Beggerly , but that with so poore , and simple stuffe ye shoulde be hable to mocke the worde ? Many fonde tales bothe you , and your felowes haue sent vs ouer : but a fonder tale , then this tale is , of your Pardonnes , and Purgatories , ye haue sente vs none . I muste saie to you , as S. Augustine sommetime saide to Iulianus the Pelagian Heretique : Augustin contra Iulianum , Lib. 5. Cap. 1. Necessitate compellitur Talibus pannis indui dui tam magna etiam Vestra superbia : Your Pride , be it neuer so greate , euen for very poore neede and beggerie , is faine to couer it selfe with sutche soary clowtes .

I beseche you , consider , howe aduisedly , and reuerently ye vse Goddes Holy Woorde . 2. Regum . 12. Matth. 12. Thus you saie , Nathan saide vnto Dauid , Our Lorde hath put awaie thy sinne : thou shalt not die : Christe saithe , The Sinne againste the Holy Ghoste shal not be foregeuen , neither in this Worlde , nor in the Worlde to comme : Or , as S. Marke saithe , Non habe● remissionem in Aeternum : Marci . 3. Galat. 6. Matth. 16. Sed reus erit Aeterni delicti : He hath not remission for Euer : but shal be guilty of Euerlastinge Sinne . S. Paule saithe , Beare ye one an others burthen . Christe saithe to Peter , To thee wil I geeue the Keies of the Kingedome of Heauen , &c. S. Paule said of him , the had liued in shameful inceste with his Fathers wife , 1. Corinth. 5. Let sutche a one be geuen ouer to Satan . These be your Scriptures : hereof ye ful discretely , and learnedly Conclude thus : Ergo , The Pope hath a warrante sufficiente to graunte his Pardonnes , and that , as wel to the deade , as to the quicke .

O M. Hardinge , God is not to be mocked : feare his iudgementes : Abuse not his Name , or Woord in vaine . Ful wel you know , that neither Dauid , nor Nathan , nor Christ , nor Paule were Pardōmoungers . What should I further saie to him , that with so greate a countenance , and so mutche a doo , can saie nothinge ? Let S. Augustine briefely answeare al these vanities . Thus he saithe , Hoc quid est aliud , nisi diligenter pro humana suspicione contendere , Augu. de Ciuit. Lib. 13. Cap. 24. & Scripturas Sanctas negligenter attendere ? What thing els is this , but stoutely to striue for mannes fansie : and negligently to consider Goddes Holy Woorde ?

The Prophete Dauid , vpon whom ye woulde séeme to grounde these folies , answeareth you thus , Narrauerunt mihi iniqui fabulationes : Sed non vt lex tua Domine : The wicked haue tolde mee many foolishe tales : Psal. 118. But , O Lorde , nothinge as thy Lawe . S. Augustine , & if he were nowe aliue , he woulde saie of you , as he saide of other your Predecessours , O Vanitas , vendens Vanitatem , Vanitatem audituris , Vanis , & Credituris : August . in Li. 50. Homili . Hom. 36 . O Vanitie , sellinge Vanitie , to them that wil heare Vanitie : and Vaine are they , that wil beleue it .

Leo saithe , In hanc insipientiam cadunt , qui cùm ad cognoscendam Veritatem aliquo impediuntur obscuro , Leo ad Flauianum , Epist. 10 non ad Propheticas voces , non ad Apostolicas Literas , nec ad Euangelicas Authoritates , sed ad semetipsos recurrunt : Into this folie they fal , that , when they be hindered by some darkenesse from the knowledge of the Truthe , goe not to the Voices of the Prophetes , nor to the Writinges of the Apostles , nor to the Authorities of the Gospelles : but onely haue recourse vnto them selues .

Now , somewhat to saie particularely of the mater , touching your pardonnes , your owne Doctoure Syluester Prieriâs , Maister of the Popes Palaice , writeth thus : Indulgentiae Authoritate Scripturae non innotuere nobis : Sed Authorirate Ecclesiae Romanae , Syluester Prierias contra Luthe . Romanorumque pontificum , quae maior est : Pardonnes are not knowen vnto vs by the Authoritie of the Scriptures : but by the Authoritie of the Churche of ●ome , and of the Popes , whiche is greater , then the Authoritie of the Scriptures .

Therefore , M. Hardinge , by this Doctours iudgemente , it was greate folie to allege so many Scriptures for proufe of your Pardonnes . For here yée are taught in good sadnesse , that your Pardonnes can neuer be proued by any Scriptures . It had benne mutche better for you , to haue alleged onely the Popes Authoritie .

For that , The Popes Pardonnes . as your Syluester teacheth you , far passeth al the Authoritie of the Scriptures .

Roffensis saithe , Roffensis contra Lutcherum . Polydor. De Inuentorib . Lib. 8. Cap. 1. Ego respondeo , non satis certo constare , à quo primùm Indulgentiae tradi coeperint . Apud Priscos vel nulla , vel certè quàm rarissima fiebat mentio de Purgatorio . Quàm diu autem nulla esset cura de Purgatorio , nemo quaesiuit Indulgentias . Nam ex illo pendet omnis Indulgentiarum aestimatio . Si tollas Purgatorium , quorsum Indulgentijs opus erit ? Coeperunt Indulgentiae , postquàm ad Purgatorij Cruciatus aliquandiu trepidatum est . Thus I answeare : It cannot wel appeare , from whom Pardonnes first beganne . Emonge the Olde Doctours , and Fathers of the Churche , there was either no talke at al , or very litle talke of Purgatorie . But as longe as Purgatorie was not cared for , there was no man that sought for Pardonnes . For the whole price of Pardonnes hangeth of Purgatorie . Take awaie Purgatorie , and what shal we neede of Pardonnes ? Pardonnes beganne , when folke were alitle fraide with the paines of Purgatorie .

Iohannes Maior saithe , Iohan. Maior , in 4. Sent. Disi . 20. quaest. 2. De Indulgentijs pauca dici possunt per certitudinem , quia Scriptura de illis expressè non loquitur . Nam quod ditur Petro , Tibi dabo Claues , &c. certum est , quò'd opor●er intelligere illam Authoritatem cum sale . Fatuae ergo & superstitiosae sunt quaedam Indulgentiae viginti millium annorum : of Pardonnes little maie be saide of certainetie : for the Scripture expressely saith nothinge of them . Touchinge that Christe saith vnto Peter , Vnto thee wil I geeue the Keies &c. we muste vnderstande this Authoritie with a corne of Salte ( otherwise it maie be vnsauery ) . Therefore certaine of the Popes Pardonnes , that promise twentie thousande yeeres , are foolishe , and superstitious .

Your Schole Doctoures them selues were woonte sommetime to saie , Veselus . Inuentio indulgentiarum est pia fraus , & dolus non malus , quò populus officioso errore trahatur ad pietatem : The Diuisinge of Pardonnes is a Godly guile , and a hurtelesse deceite : to the intente , that by a deuoute kinde of E●oure the people maie be drawen to Godlinesse .

Alphonsus de Castro saithe , Alphons . de Castro . Li. 8. Indulgentiae . Nulla res est , quam minùs apertè Sacrae Literae prodiderint : & de qua minus vetusti Scriptores dixerint . Non est mentio vlla de Indulgentijs : There is nothing that the Scriptures haue lesse opened , or whereof the Olde Learned Fathers haue lesse written , then Pardonnes . Of Pardonnes ( in the Scriptures and Doctoures ) there is no mention .

Of the shamelesse Marchandise , and sales hereof , many Godly menne haue complained . 1. Timoth. 6. 2. Petri. 2. Ye haue turned godlinesse into gaine : and , as S. Peter saithe , Through couetousnesse , by fained speache , yee haue made Martes , and Markettes of the people . One of your owne frendes saithe thus , Opus Tripart . coniunctum cum Concil. Lateran . Lib. 3. Cap. 8. In multis Breuibus continentur tot Indulgentiae , vt boni Viri mirentur , vnquàm de Conscientia Papae , vel alicuius boni viri potuisse illa procedere : In many of theire Bookes there are conteined so many daies , and yeeres of Pardonne , that good menne marueile , that thei coulde euer comme out , by the Consente either of the Pope , or of any other god man .

To conclude , August . In Epist. Iohan. Tracta. 1. wée wil saie with S. Augustine , Fratres , Iesum Christum Iustum habemus Aduocatum apud Patrem . Ipse est propitiatio pro Peccatis nostris : Hoc qui tenuit , Haeresim non fecit : Hoc qui tenuit , Schisma non fecit . Vnde enim facta sunt Schismata ? Cùm dicunt homines , Nos iusti sumus : Nos Sanctificamus immundos : Nos iustificamus impios : Nos petimus : nos impetramus : My Brethera , wee haue Iesus Christe the Righteous our Aduocate with the Father . He is the Propitiation , or Pardonne for our sinnes . He that helde this , neuer made Heresie : He that helde this , neuer made Schisme . For whereof doo Schismes comme ? Hereof they comme : when menne saie , ( as now the Pope saithe , ) Wee are righteous : Wee doo make Holy the vnholy : Wee doo iustifie the wicked : Wee doo Praie : we doo obteine .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 1.

These menne are woonte to speake mutche of a certaine secrete Doctrine of theirs , & of their manifold & sundrie readinges . Let them therefore bringe foorth sommewhat now , if thei can , that it maie appeare , they haue at leaste readde , or doo knowe sommewhat . They haue often stoutely noised in al corners , where they wente , that al the partes of theire Religion be very olde , and haue benne approued , not onely of the multitude , but also by the consente , and continual obseruation of al Nations , and times . Let them therefore once in theire life , she we this theire Antiquitie : Let them make appeare to the eie , that the thinges , whereof thei make sutche a doo , haue taken so long , and large encrease : Let them declare , that al Christian Nations haue agreed by consente to this theire Religion .

Nay , nay , they turne theire backes , as we haue said already , and flee from theire owne Decrees , and haue cut of , and abolished againe within ashorte space , the same thinges , whiche but a fewe yeeres before , them selues had established , for euermore , foresooth , to continewe . Howe should one then truste them in the Fathers , in the Olde Councelles , and in the Woordes spoken by God ? They haue not , good Lorde , they haue not ( I saie ) those thinges , whiche they boaste , they haue : thei haue not that Antiquitie , thei haue not that Vniuersalitie , they haue not that Consent , neither of al places , nor of al times . And , though they haue a desire rather to dissemble , yet they themselues are not ignorant hereof : yea , and sommetime also thei let not to confesse it openly . And for this cause they saie , that the ordinaunces of the Olde Councelles , and Fathers be sutche , as maie nowe and then be altered , and , that sundrie and diuers Decrees serue for sundrie , and diuers times of the Churche . Thus lurke they vnder the name of the Churche , and beguile seely creatures withe theire vaine glosinge . It is to be merueiled , that either menne be so blinde , that thei can not see this : or , if thei see it , that they can be so patient , so lightly , & so quietly to beare it .

M. Hardinge .

Here is mutche a doo , and as some saie , greate boste , and smal roste : many wordes , litle matter . The sense of these wordes ( if I be not deceiued ) resembleth M. Iewels chalenging sprite , as like as an E We resembleth a sheepe . What we can bringe foorth , we saie not ‡ ‡ It is good policie for him , that hath nothing to shewe , to holde his peace . Neither thinke wee it necessary at your requeste , to shewe , what we haue reade , and what we knowe . Bosting and bragging shewes we leaue to you : that you require , hath ben sufficiently declared other wheres . Al thinges are not to be saide at al times . Yet two of your lowde lies besides other that you make here , I wil be so bolde , as to discouer . The decrees of the late Tridentine Councel ( for that is it that you meane ) although they be not yet in al place moste exactely obserued , yet be they not repealed , cut of , and abolished againe , as you saie .

* * For trial hereof , consider onely the woordes of Roffensis , Maior , and Alphonsus , alleged in the former Diuision . And what a fowle lie is that other , where you saie , that our selues acknowledge and confesse openly that the faith and Doctrine , whiche we holde , is not Auncient , and Vniuersal , for times , places , and consente of al ? What els meane we , when we chalenge vnto vs and claime the Catholike Faithe ? But this is your accustomed slender Rhetorike , when proufes and argumentes of truthe faile you , to vse the figure of impudent lieinge , and saie , that we our selues confesse it to be true , whiche you impute vnto vs . What so euer you saie in this place , we maie of right retourne it euer to you . So we do , and so take you it , &c. And for ought that I can se yet , as your Synagog had of late the beginninge , so it is like shortely to haue an endinge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Of al these woordes , and others moe , so vaine , as many , there is not one woord woorthe the answearinge . What affiance M. Hardinge , and his frendes haue in theire Antiquitie , it maie appeare by the laste Diuision .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 1.

But , whereas they haue commaunded , that those Decrees should be voide , as thinges nowe waxen too olde , and that haue loste theire grace , perhaps they haue prouided , in theire steede , certaine other better thinges , and more profitable for the people . For it is a common saieinge with them , that if Christe him selfe , or the Apostles were aliue againe , thei could neither better , nor more Godly gouerne Gods Churche , then it is at this presente gouerned by them . They haue put sommewhat in theire steede in deede : but it is chaffe in steede of wheate , Hierem. 23. Esai . 1. as Hieremie saith : & sutche thinges , as , according to Esaies woordes , God neuer required at theire handes . They haue stopped vp , saith he , al the vaines of the cleare springing water , & haue digged vp for the people deceiuable , & puddlelike pits , ful of mire , and filth , whiche neither haue , nor are hable to holde pure water . They haue plucked awaie from the people the Holy Communion , the Woorde of God , from whence al comforte shoulde bee taken , the true Worshippinge of God also , and the right vse of Sacramentes , and Praier , and haue geeuen vs of their own , to plaie withal in the meane while , Salte , Water , Oile , Boxes , Spittle , Palmes , Bulles , Iubilees , Pardons , Crosses , Sensinges , and an endelesse rabble of Ceremonies , and ( as a man might terme them with Plautus ) prety games , to make sporte withal .

M. Hardinge .

Raile and reuel whiles ye wil , the Churche is gouerned by * * But the Pope vseth neither of them . disciline . If Christe himselfe or his Apostles wee aliue againe , the worde , that is to saie , ‡ ‡ Vntruthes , without either measure , or regarde of shame . the Doctrine of our belefe , no we preached and receiued in the Catholike Church , ‡ neither shoulde be altered , ‡ nor coulde be bettered . ‡ For it is the same , he taught him selfe . And that we doubt not of it , accordinge to his promise , he hath sente the holy Ghoste , to enforme the Churche of al truthe . Malach. 3. Psal. 118. Remember you not , who saide , I am God , * * O folie . The Change is in you , and not in God . and am not changed ? againe , that the worde of God remaineth for euer ?

This beinge true , it is euident , that we haue the sound and weighty wheate , whiche no persecution of tyraunces , and blasies of heretikes , no contagion of euil manners , for these fiften hundred yeeres could either blowe from the floore of our Lordes berne , the Churche , or corrupt . We haue accordinge to the Apostles counsel , Depositum 1. Tim. 6. kepte that hath ben committed vnto vs . We haue enioyed the fountaine of the water of life .

Ye charge vs soare , that we haue plucked awaie from the people the holy communion , the worde of God , the true worshippinge of God , the right vse of Sacramentes , and praier . Who so euer taketh these fiue awaie , wherein chiefly standeth our saluation , the same ‡ ‡ The Gospel in your mouthe . is Antichrist . Were not that ye haue already done so mutche for vs , as the worlde maie take you for impudente liers , we would not quietly beare so greauous a matter . But nowe , that ye haue tried your selues so false of your worde , we litle esteme it : your railinge is no slaunder . Lastly concerninge praier , what hath ben ordeined by our holy forefathers * * Vntruthe For your Barbarous vnknowen Pr●iers , to the time of the Anciente Lerned Fathers , were neuer knowen . of al ages , Christes gouernement no better , than the Popes . directed with the sprite of God , for the maintenance and encrease of it to Gods honoure , al that in fewe yeres by the instincte of Sathan , to promote his Kingedome , ye haue vtterly abolished , and by wicked violence brought the people from ‡ ‡ Vntruthes ioined with open Blasphemie . deuotion to a carelesse idlenesse , from speaking to God with hartes and lippes , to ‡ a spiritual dummesse , from praiers ‡ to chapters , from holy thinkinge to ‡ vnprofitable harkeninge .

Ye can not abyde salte , water , oyle , palme , the crosse , incense , &c. no maruel . No more can not the deuil , who possesseth you , and rideth you , and after his owne wil driueth you from truthe , from Christen Religion , and from al Godlines . Were it so that your sprite coulde a waie with those thinges , then were it not agreeing with his sprite . Vntil ye geue place to the spirit of God , who maie driue out of you the spiritie of Sathan , we looke to heare no better tidinges of you .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Ye were sommewhat angrie , M. Hardinge , when ye thus besturred your selfe . It pitieth me in your behalfe . Christe , and his Apostles , yée saie , neuer ruled the Churche in better order , then it is nowe ruled by the Pope , and his Cardinalles . Euen so might they haue saide , that had turned the House of God into a Caue of Theeues . One of your frendes saith , Matth. 21. Latomus de Vtraque Specie . Iacobus Andreae aduersus Hosium , Pag. 70. Apostolorum temporibus rudis adhuc erat Ecclesia : In the time of the Apostles , the Churche as yet was rude , and Barbarous , and out of order . And , being afterward reproued for his blasphemous speache , he answeared lewdly in his pleasance ,

Rudis , indigestaqueue moles .

Others of you saie , Christus in Coelo praesidet : Papa in Terris residet : Christe ruleth in Heauen : the Pope in Earthe . An other saithe , Dis. 19. Sicomnes Omnes Sanctiones Sedis Apostolicae sic accipiendae sunt , tanquam ipsius Diuina voce Petri firmatae : Al the Lawes of the Apostolique see of Rome muste so be taken , as if they were confirmed by the Diuine voice of Peter him selfe .

An other saith , Andreas Barbatius Siculus ad Bessarionem : Polydor. Vergil . de Inuentorib . Lib. 4. Cap. 9. Ceremoniar . Li. 1 Sect. 8. Cap. 6. Hierony . in Prouerb . 7. Sicut ostium regitur Cardine , ita Ecclesia Romana regitur Consilio Cardinalium : As the doore is ruled by the hooke , so is the Churche of Rome ruled by the Counsel of Cardinalles .

Therefore the Pope him selfe saithe thus vnto them , Vos eritis Senatores vrbis , & Regum similes , veri Mundi Cardines , super quos militantis ostium Ecclesiae voluendum , & regendum est : Ye shal be the Senatours of my Cittie , and like vnto Kinges , the very bookes , and staies of the worlde , vpon whom the very doore of the Churche Militante muste be turned , and ruled . Sutche are they , whom S. Hierome imagineth thus to saie , Non est Vir in domo . Non est Christus Corporaliter in Ecclesia . Surgens enim à mortuis , Ascendit in Coelum : nobisque Ministerium gubernandae Ecclesiae , suam , videlicet , Domum reliquit : My Husbande is not at home . ( That is to saie ) Christe is not nowe Corporally in the Churche . For , beinge risen from the deade , he is Ascended into Heauen : and hath leafte vnto vs the gouernmente of his Churche : that is , the whole orderinge of his House .

True it is , as you saie , Malach. 3. Psal. 118. Matth. 15. God is one , and is not Changed . And his Woorde endureth for euer . But the Change is in you , and not in God . Goddes Woorde is the Woorde of Life : your Woorde is the Woorde of Vanitie . God the Father hath not planted it : Therefore it shal be plucked vp by the rootes . God saithe by the Prophete Malachie : The lippes of the Prieste shal keepe knowledge : Malach. 2. and the people shal require the Lawe at his mouthe . For he is the Angel of the Lorde of Hostes . Vos autem recessistis de Via , &c. But you are gonne backe from the Waie : you haue offended many a one in the Lawe : you haue broken the Couenante of Leui , saith the Lord of Hostes . And therefore haue I made you to be despised .

Yee haue changed the moste parte of the Apostles Doctrine : And of al , that euer they ordeined , yée haue in a manner leafte nothinge standinge . S. Bernarde saithe of your owne Churche of Rome , Readinge of Chapters . A planta pedis vsque ad verticem Capitis , non est sanitas vlla : From the sole of the foote , vnto the Crowne of the heade , there is not one whole place : Bernard . in Conuersione Pauli . And yet ye beare vs strongely in hande , that Christe , and his Apostles neuer ruled the Churche in better order , then it is nowe ruled by the Pope , and his Cardinalles .

Al the reste of your emptie talke is answeared sufficiently before . Yet one pange of your Eloquence . I maie not in any wise leaue vntouched . Thus ye saie , By the instincte of Satan , ye haue brought the people from deuotion , to carelesse idlenesse : from speakinge to God with hartes , and lippes , to a spiritual doumbenesse : from Praiers , to Chapters : from Holy thinking , to vnprofitable hearkeninge . If I were not wel acquainted with your speache , M. Hardinge , I could not thinke , ye would so vnaduisedly bestowe your woordes . I doubte not , but euen hereby it shal soone appeare , whether of vs hath wilfully broken the Apostles Orders , & refused the Godly Examples of the Holy Primitiue Churche of God . Yee telle vs , that the Readinge of the Scriptures vnto the people , in the Churche of God , is a Spiritual doumbenesse , and a thinge vnprofitable , as onely diuised of our selues , and that , as you saie , by the instincte of Sathan , and neuer before , either knowen , or vsed by any Catholique Learned Father .

Yet the Aunciente Father Origen saithe , Origen . in Iosua Homil. 15. Iudaicarum Historiarum Libri traditi sunt ab Apostolis , Legendi in Ecclesijs : The Bookes of ( the Olde Testament , which are called ) the stories of the Iewes , were deliuered by the Apostles , to be readde in the Churches . Dionylius Eccle. Hierar . Cap 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Dionysius saithe , Deinde ordine habetur Sacrorum Librorum Lectio : After warde folowe in order the Lessons of the Holy Bookes . Iustinus Martyr saithe , Die Solis omnes , qui in oppidis , vel in agris morantur , vnum in locum conueniunt : Commentariaque Apostolorum , vel Prophetarum Scripta leguntur . Deinde , is , qui praeest , admone● omnes , & horratur , vt ea , quae Lecta sunt , bona , imitentur . Deinde surgimus omnes , & comprecamur : Vpon the Sondaie , the Christian people , that dwel in towne , Iustinus Martyr Apologia . 2. or Countrie , meete togeather in one place . There the Epistles of the Apostles , or the prophetes Writinges are pronounced vnto vs . Afterward , he that is the Chiefe , or Minister , warneth , and exhorteth al the reste , that they wil folowe those good thinges , that they haue hearde readden . That donne , wee rise vp al , and praie togeather . S Cyprian saithe , Cyprian Lib. 2. Epist. 5. Lector personat Verba sublimia : Euangelium Christi legit : A Fratribus conspicitur : cum gaudio Fraternitatis auditur : The Reader soundeth out the high , and Heauenly Woordes : he readeth out the Gospel of Christe : He is seene of the Brethren : he is hearde with ioie of ( al ) the Brotherhoode .

The Fathers in the Councel of Constantinople saie thus , Concil. Constantinopo . 5. Actio . 1. Tempore Diptychorum cucurrit omnis multitudo cum magno silentio circum circa Altare , & audiebant : At the time of Readinge ( of the Chapter ) al the multitude of the people with greate silence drewe runde about the Anltare , or Communion Table , and gaue eare .

In the Councel of Laodicea it is written thus , Concil. Laodice . Can. 16. In Sabbatis Euangelia cum alijs Scripturis legi conuenit : Vpon the Sabboth daie it is conuenient , that the Gospelles , and other Scriptures be readde ( in the Churche vnto the people ) . Leo de Resurrectione Domini , Sermo 2. Leo saith , Solennitati Sacratissimae Lectionis subiungatur exhortatio Sacerdotis : After the solemne Readinge of the moste Holy Lesson , let there folowe the Sermon , or Exhortation of the Prieste . S. Chrysostom . in Acta . Homil. 19. Chrysostome saithe , Sta● Minister , & Communis Minister , & alta voce clamat . Post illam vocem Lector incipit Prophetiam Esaiae : The Minister , and Common Minister standeth vp , and crieth out with lowde voice ( saieinge , keepe silence , and geeue eare ) . After that , the Reader beginneth the Prophesie of Esaie . S. Ambrose saith , Ambros . Lib 5. Epist. 20. Iohan. 5. Non possum ego à me facere quicquam : sicut audio , & iudico . Audistis Lectum : Ego non accuso vos : Moses vos accusat : Audistis Lectum : ( Christe saithe ) I cannot doo any thinge of mee selfe : As I heare , so I iudge . Yee haue hearde it readden : I accuse you not : It is Moses , that accuseth you . Yee haue hearde it readden .

S. Augustine saithe , Readinge of Chapters . Audistis , cùm Euangelium legeretur : Modò , cùm legeretur , si intenti fuistis Lectioni , Audistis : Audiuimus in Lectione , quae Lecta est , Fratres dilectissimi : Aug. in Psal 3. August . in 50 Homil. Hom. 4 ▪ August . de Tempore . Sermo 2. Ye hearde , when the Gospel was readde : Ye hearde ere while , when it was readde , if ye gaue eare to the Readinge : Deerely beloued , wee haue hearde in the Lesson , that hath benne readde .

Hereby , I thinke , it maie appeare , that the Readinge of Lessons , and Chapters , is no Newe Diusse in the Churche of God .

And yet wil you tel vs , M. Hardinge , that al this is onely a Spiritual doumbenesse , and an vnprofitable Hearkeninge , brought in by the instincte of Sathan , to promote his Kingedome ? Or , if you dare so to tel vs , muste wée beléeue you ?

Verily , Isidor . de Eccles. Offic. li. 1. ca. 10. Isidorus saith , Lectio est non parua audientium aedificatio . Vnde oporter , vt quando Psallitur , Psallatur ab omnibus : quando Oratur , Oretur ab omnibus : quandò Lectio Legitur , facto silentio , aequè audiatur à cunctis : The Lesson ( in the Church ) bringeth great profite to the hearers . Therefore when Singing is , let al Singe togeather : when Praier is , let al Praie togeather : And , when the Lesson , or Chapter is readde , let silence be made , and let al heare togeather . Tertullian saith , Coimus ad Literarum Diuinarum Commemorationem . Tertullian . in Apologetico . Fidem Sanctis Vocibus pascimus : Spem erigimus : Fiduciam figimus : We comme togeather to the Readinge of the Holy Scriptures : wee feede our Faithe with those Heauenly Voices : wee raise vp our affiance : wee fosten our hope . Againe he saithe , Tertullian . ad Vxorem . Lib. 2. Vbi fomenta Fidei de Scripturarum Lectione ? Where is the feeding of Faithe , that commeth by the open pronouncinge , and Readinge of the Scriptures ?

Origen saithe , Origen . in Leuiticum , Homil. 5. Non fuisset Necessarium , Legi haec in Ecclesia , nisi ex his aedificatio aliqua audientibus praeberetur : It had not benne Necessarie , to haue these thinges readde in the Churche , onlesse thereof might growe somme profite to the hearers .

Leo saith , Leo de Passione Domin . Serm. 19. Sacram Dominicae Passionis Historiam Euangelica , vt moris est , narratione decursam , ita omnium vestrum arbitror inhaesisse pectoribus , vt vnicuique audientium , ipsa Lectio quaedam facta sit vitio : I thinke , that the Holy storie of our Lordes Passion , whiche wee , as the manner is , haue readde vnto you , is so fastened vnto al your hartes , that the very hearinge it selfe vnto euery of the Hearers is a kinde of seeinge . Chrysostome saith , The manner was , that before euery sutche Lesson , or Chapter , the Minister should saie vnto the people , with a loude voice , Attendamus : Let vs Marke . Chrysost. in Acta Homil. 19.

S. Augustine saith , Epistolae Apostolicae , non tantùm illis Scriptae sunt , qui tempore illo , August . Contra Cresconium . Li. 1 Cap. 9. quo scribebantur , audiebant , sed etiam nobis . Non enim ob aliud in Ecclesia recitantur : The Apostles Epistles were not written onely to them , that hearde them at the same time , when they were written , but also to vs . For to none other pourpose they are readde openly in the Churche .

This therefore is no Spiritual Doumbenesse , M. Hardinge : This is no vnprofitable Hearkeninge : This is no Instincte , or Woorke of Sathan . S. Augustine saithe , Vide Formicam Dei : Surgit quotidiè : Currit ad Ecclesiam Dei : Orat : Audit Lectionem : Aug. in Psal. 66. Hymnum cantat : ruminat , quod audit : Apud se cogitat : recondit intùs grana electa de area : Beholde Goddes Emote : Shee riseth daily : Shee renneth to the Churche of God : shee Praieth : Shee heareth the Lesson , or Chapter : Shee fingeth the Psalme : Shee cheweth , or remembreth , that shee hathe hearde : Shee museth vpon it within her selfe : And within shee laieth vp the Cornes chosen from the floore .

But your Churches , M. Hardinge , are ful , not onely of Spiritual , but also of Corporal , and horrible doumbenesse . Of al , that is saide , or donne there , the poor Godly People knoweth nothinge . S. Augustine saithe , Readinge of Chapters . Si intellectum mentis remoueas , nemo aedificatur , audiendo , quod non intelligit : If yee remoue the vnderstandinge of the minde , Augu. de Genesi ad Literam . Li. 12. Cap. 8. no man is edified , or taketh profite by hearinge , that he cannot vnderstande .

Chrysostome saithe , Perdiderunt audiendi laborem , & tempus . Nam qui non intelligit , Chrys. in Matth. Homil. 131. quod audit , perdit , quod audit : They haue loste bothe theire laboure in hearinge , and also the time . For he , that vnderstandeth not , that he heareth , loseth the thinge , that he heareth . Therefore the Pope him selfe in his Pontifical , géeueth this special Charge vnto the Reader , In Pontificali . Stude Lectiones Sacras distinctè , & apertè proferre ad Intelligentiam , & aedificationem Fidelium : Endeuoure thee selfe to pronounce the Holy Lessons ( or Chapters ) distinctely , and plainely ( not to a Spiritual doumbenesse , but ) to the vnderstandinge , and profite of the Faitheful .

Touching the Praiers , that the simple people maketh in a tongue vnknowen , Christe saithe , Matth. 15. This people honoureth me with theire lippes : But theire hartes are far from mee .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 2.

In these thinges haue they set al theire Religion , teachinge the people , that by the same God maie be duely pacified , Spirites be driuen awaie , and mens consciences wel quieted .

M. Hardinge .

What shal I saie to al this , but that ye lie ? I would saie , as the manner is , Sauing your worshippes : but that your often and vnshamefaste lieing hath quite taken awaie from you al opinion of honestie . Al Christes Religion whiche we professe , consisteth not in these thinges , * * Vntruthe . For hereby ye professe to quiet mennes consciences . Reade the Answeare . neither by these be mennes consciences quieted . By certaine of these , euil and impure sprites be driued awaie in deede . Which here by sundry Aunciente recordes and Testimonies I woulde declare to be moste true , were it not wel yenough knowen by daily experience . But as for you , whereas neither Breade , nor Water , nor Crosse driueth you awaie , it semeth ye are worse to be coniured , then the deuil himselfe . Many of your secte Catholike Princes haue founde so stubborne , as they could yet neuer ridde theire Countries of them , but by coniuration of fire .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Yée saie , yée ye neuer sought to quiet mennes Consciences by Oile , Water , Palmes , &c. And therefore ye stande vp a tipps toe , and in your familiare manner , crie oute , yee lie . For shorte trial hereof , one example maie suffice , in stéede of many . Augustine Steuchus , Augu. Steuchus in Librum Numeror . Cap. 19. one of your special , and woorthy Doctoures , saithe thus , Aquas Sale , & Orationibus Sanctificamus , vt ad earum Aspersum nostra deleantur delicta : We halowe Water with Salte , and Praiers , that by the Sprinkelinge thereof our sinnes maie be foregeeuen . Sinnes foregeeuen by Holy Water . Reade your owne Pontifical : and ye shal finde in the halowinge of your Water , your Asshes , your Palmes , your Candels , &c. this clause euermore in the ende , Vt sint nobis ad Salutem Animae , & Corporis : That they maie be to vs to the Saluation of Body , and soule .

Whereas in the ende ye vaunte your selfe of your Crueltie , In Pontificali . and so pleasantly make Sporte with the Bloude of your Brethern , take it not for il , if I answeare you with the Woordes of Salomon , Prouerb . 11. Viscera impiorum crudelia : The bowelles of the wicked be alwaies cruel . Therein , M. Hardinge , standeth your greateste puissance . If ye were no better armed with Fire , and Swerde , then ye be with Scriptures , and Doctoures , no wise man woulde greately feare your force .

As for vs , wée maie answeare you now , as S. Cyprian sommetime answeared the Heathens : Nobis ignominia non est , pati à Fratribus , quod passus est Christus : Cyprian . Lib. 1. Epist. 3. neque vobis gloria est , facere , quod fecit Iudas : It is no shame for vs , to suffer of our Brethren the same violence , that Christe suffered : neither is it any praise for you , to doo the same thinge , that Iudas did .

Tertullian saith vnto your Fathers : Tertullian in Apologe●ico . Crudelitas vestra , gloria nostra est : Semen est Sanguis Christianorum : Your crueltie is our Glorie : The Bloude of Christians is the seede of the Gospel . I praie God , al that innocente Bloude , that hath benne sheadde in this cause , be not required at your handes in the daie of Wrathe , and at the declaration of the iuste iudgemente of God . Roma. 2.

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision . 1.

For these , lo , be the oriente colours , and Pretious sauours of Christian Religion : these thinges dooth God looke vpon , and accepteth them thankefully : these must comme in place to be honoured , & must put quite awaie the Institutions of Christe , & of his Apostles . And , like as in times paste , when wicked Kinge Ieroboam had taken from the people the right seruing of God , & had brought them to woorship the Golden Calues , leste perchaunce thei might afterward change theire minde , and slippe awaie , geatinge them againe to Ierusalem to the Temple of God there , hee exhorted them with a longe tale , to be stedfast , saieinge thus vnto them : O Israel , these Calues be thy Goddes . In this sorte commaunded your God you shoulde woorship him . For it shoulde be wearisome , and troublous for you , to take vpon you a iourney so farre of , & yeerely to goe vp to Ierusalem , there to serue and honoure your God : Euen after the very same sorte , when these menne had once made the Lawe of God of none effecte , through theire owne Traditions , fearinge that the people shoulde afterwarde open theire eies , & fal an other waie , and shoulde sommewhence els seeke a surer meane of theire Saluation , Iesu , howe often haue they cried out , This is the same woorshippinge , that pleaseth God , and whiche hee straitely requireth of vs , and wherewith he wil be turned from his wrathe : that by these thinges is conserued the Vnitie of the Churche : that by these al sinnes be cleansed , and consciences quieted : and that , who so departeth from these , hath leafte vnto him selfe no hope of Euerlastinge Saluation . For it were wearisome , and troublous ( saie they ) for the people to resorte to Christe , to the Apostles , and to the Anciente Fathers , and to obserue continually , what theire wil and commaundement should be . This , ye maie see , is to withdrawe the people of God from the Weake Elementes of the worlde , from the leauen of the Scribes and Phariseis , and from the Traditions of menne . It were reason , no doubte , that Christes Commaundementes , and the Apostles were remoued , that these theire diuises might comme in place . O iuste cause , I promise you , why that Anciente , and so longe allowed Doctrine shoulde be nowe abolished , and a newe Forme of Religion be brought into the Churche of God .

M. Hardinge .

It shoulde haue becomme Scoggin , Patche , Iolle , Harry Pattenson , or Wil Sommer , to haue tolde this tale mutche better , then your Superintendentships . And if ye woulde nedes haue plaied the parte your selues , it had ben more conuenient to haue donne it on the stage , vnder a vices cote , then in a booke set abrode to the worlde in defence of al your newe Englishe Churche . Ye shal neuer make any reasonoble man beleue your scoffinge tale . We esteme litle your railinge comparison , with your spiteful woordes , and so mutche deuilishe villany .

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision . 2.

And yet , whatsoeuer it be , these menne crie stil , that nothing ought to be changed : that mens mindes are wel satisfied here withal : that the Churche of Rome , the Churche , whiche cannot erre , hath decreed these thinges . For Syluester Prieriàs saith , that the Romishe Churche is the Squier , and Rule of Truthe , & that the Holy Scripture hath receiued from thence Authoritie , and Credite . The Doctrine , saith he , of the Romaine Churche , is the infallible Rule of Faithe , from the whiche the Holy Scripture taketh her force . And Indulgences , and Pardonnes ( saithe he ) are not made knowen to vs by the Authoritie of the Scriptures , but they are knowen to vs by the Authoritie of the Romaine Churche , and of the Bishoppes of Rome , which is greater , then the Scriptures . Pigghius also letteth not to saie , that without the licence of the Romaine Church , we ought not to beleue the very Plaine Scriptures : Mutch like as if any of those , that cannot speake pure , and cleane Latine , and yet can babble out quickely , and readily a litle somme sutche Lawe Latine , as serueth the Courte , woulde needes holde , that al others ought also to speake after the same waie , that Mammetrectus , and Catholicon spake many yeeres agoe , and whiche themselues doo yet vse in pleadinge in Courte : for so maie it be vnderstoode sufficiently , what is said , & mennes desires maie be satisfied : & that it is a fondenesse , nowe in the later ende , to trouble the worlde with a newe kinde of speakinge , and to cal againe the olde finenesse and eloquence , that Cicero , and Caesar vsed in theire daies in the Latine tongue . So mutche are these menne beholden to the folie , & darkenesse of the former times . C. Plinius . Many thinges , as one writeth , are had in estimation oftentimes , bicause thei haue benne once dedicate to the Temples of the Heathen Goddes : Euen so wee see at this daie , many thinges allowed , & highly sette by of these menne , not bicause they iudge them so mutche woorthe , but onely bicause they haue benne receiued into a custome , and after a sorte dedicate to the Temple of God .

M. Hardinge .

Ye haue neuer donne with the Churche of Rome . I cannot blame you . For so long as that standeth , without ye repente and tourne , * * So was Christe taken of the Phariseies . ye shal neuer be taken but for sutche as ye be , Schismatikes , and Heretikes . But alas poore soules , what thinke ye to ouerthrowe that Churche builded vpon the rocke ‡ ‡ The fundation of the Churche of God , is not Peter , but Christe . Peter , againste whiche hitherto neither tyrauntes , nor Heretikes farre passinge you in lerninge , and honestie of common life , The Churche aboue Goddes Woord . coulde euer preuaile ? Trowe ye to extinguishe that faithe of the Romaine Churche , * * Vntruthe . Fo● generally it●● contrarie to 〈◊〉 Faithe of 〈◊〉 whiche is the same that was the faithe of Peter , Luc. 22. for which Christe praied , that it should neuer faile ? Ye laboure in vaine . Wel may Sathan winne you : the Churche whiche our Lorde praied for , by you shal he neuer winne . Geue ouer therefore your vaine and wicked attemptes . Trust not in the patches , that falsely ye allege out of Canonistes gloses , scholemen , riminge poetes , Heretikes , and who so euer , be they neuer so bad . Some ignorant persons maye ye deceiue , whose sinnes deserue the same .

What Syluester Prierlât saieth . I minde not here to discusse . ‡ ‡ It is easil●● founde in 〈◊〉 Booke , 〈◊〉 Lutherum . Neither where he saithe , that you alleage , haue you thought good to tel vs , lest . by perusinge the place , we shoulde take you in a lie , as we haue almoste in al your other allegations . The like sinceritie you use in alleaginge Pighius . We binde our selues neither to the wordes of Syluester , nor of Pighius . If they erre , what is that to vs ? Let them beare theire owne burthen . If they tel truth , we beleue them for truthes sake . If otherwise , we leaue that parte for you to carpe . If Syluester Prierias saide , that for pointes of belefe , the Doctrine of the Romaine Churche is a squire to trie theire truthe by : the same * * A comm●●●rie biside 〈◊〉 Texte . beinge wel vnderstanded is right true . Likewise if Pighius saie , that the Romaine Churche sheweth vnto vs , which be the approued and vndoubted scriptures , and whiche be not : this is so true , as your selfe ( I suppose ) wil yelde thereunto . As for that the scripture receiued from the Churche of Rome Authoritie , credite , and force : ‡ ‡ A proper Glose . if in your meaninge you exclude God , that is your lie , not Syluesters sentence . If relation be made to vs , that we ought not geue credite vnto it , * * Vanitie of Vanities : For the Scriptures were knowen , and beleued , before there was any Churche in Rome . onlesse it had ben shewed to be holy scripture by the Romaine Church , whiche is the true Churche of Christe : in this sense , be it Syluester , or who els so euer saithe it , it is a true saieinge , and agreable to S. Augustine , Contra Epist. Fundamenti . ca. 5. Ego Euangelio non crederem , nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commueret Authoritas . I woulde not beleue the Gospel , except the Auctoritie of the Catholike Churche moued me . And for that you alleage out of him , touchinge indulgences , truthe it is , the ful , and whole knowledge of them is not plainely opened vnto vs , by expresse and euident wordes of Scripture , no more then the mysterie of the blessed Trinitie , baptizinge of infantes , and many other truthes : but rather by the doctrine of the Romaine Churche .

Where you tel vs of Pighius , that he letteth not to saie , that without the licence of the Romishe Churche ( for in that word you please your selfe wel ) we ought not to beleue the very plaine scriptures : ‡ ‡ It is no harde mater to finde it , Reade the Answeare . we wil proclaime you a lyer , vntil you shewe vs , where he spake so farre beside reason , and lerninge . The holy Churche doth not wil vs to staie from belefe of the scriptures , vntil we haue licence : but by al waies and meanes inuiteth and stirreth vs to beleue the truthe in the scriptures vttered .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The greatest weight hereof vpon twoo of your Doctoures , Syluester Prieriâs , and Albertus Pigghius . Whoes credite notwithstandinge yée woulde faine otherwise saue vpright , yet here , as it séemeth , ye are contente , for shame to géeue them ouer . We binde our selues , yée saie , neither to the woordes of Syluester , nor of Pigghius . If they erre , what is that to vs ? This shorte , and blunte answeare , notwithstandinge it séeme to like wel you , yet perhaps Prieriâs , and Pigghius it woulde not like . I sée no greate cause to the contrarie , but either of them might as wel renounce your Authoritie , and saie of you , Wée are not bounde , neither to M. Hardinges woordes , nor to his felowes .

For that yée doubte the Truthe of our allegations , reade Syluester Prieriâs Maister of the Popes Palace , in his Booke entituled , Syluester Prierias , contra Lutherum . Contra praesumptuosas Martini Lutheri Conclusiones , de potestate Papae . His wordes there emongest others be these : Quicumque non innititur Doctrinae Romanae Ecclesiae , ac Romani pōlificis , tanquam Regulae Dei infallibili , à qua etiam sacra Scriptura robur trahit , & Authoritatem , Haereticus est : Who so euer leaneth not to the Doctrine of the Romaine Churche , and of the Bishop of Rome , as vnto the infallible Rule of God , of whiche Doctrine the Holy Scripture taketh force and Authoritie , he is an Heretique .

Againe he saithe , The Churche aboue Goddes Woord . Authoritas Romanae Ecclesiae , Romanique pontificis maior est , &c. The Authoritie of the Romaine Churche , and of the Bishop of Rome is greater , ( then the Authoritie of Goddes woorde ) .

As for that , is here alleged of Pigghius , it is the very sounde , and sense of the greatest parte of his Common place , De Ecclesia . Of whoes iudgemente herein , M. Caluine writeth thus : Alb. Pigghius in locis Communib . De Ecclesia . Pighius ait , Nullius Scripturae Authoritate , quantum libet Clarae , nostro quidem iudicio , & euidentis , aduersus Claram , consonantemque Orthodoxorum Patrum Sententiam , & aduersus communem Ecclesiae Definitionem , aliquid credere cuiquam licere : Pighius saithe , that noman maie lawfully beleeue any thinge , by the Authoritie of any Scripture , be the same , in our iudgement , neuer so plaine , and euidente , againste the cleare , and agreeable iudgemente of the Catholique Fathers , and againste the Common determination of the Churche : By whiche he meaneth onely the Churche of Rome . Therefore , M. Hardinge , it maie please you nowe a litle to spare your voice , and to staie your Proclamation .

But , for as mutche as yée séeme , so litle to estéeme these twoo Doctoures , Prieriâs , and Pigghius , beinge otherwise , not longe sithence , the chiefe Leaders , and Captaines of al your bandes , ye maie therefore ioine others to them , to better theire credite , and to encrease the Companie . And , for as mutche as wée speake of the Churche of Rome , let vs heare the iudgement of a Cardinal of the Churche of Rome , notwithstandinge otherwise alleged before .

Cardinal Cusanus therefore hereof saithe thus , Nicol. Cusanus de Authoritate Ecclesiae , & Concilij supra & contra Scriptur . Haec est omnium sanè intelligentium Sententia , qui Scripturarum Authoritatem , & intellectum in Ecclesiae approbatione fundant : & non è conuerso , Ecclesiae● Fundamentum in Scripturarum Authoritate locant : Nulla sunt Christi praecepta , nisi quae per Ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt : Sequuntur igitur Scripturae Ecclesiam , & non è conuerso : This is the iudgemente of al them , that thinke rightly , that founde the Authoritie , and vnderstandinge of the Scriptures in the allowance of the Churche : and not contrariewise , laie the Fundation of the Churche in the Authoritie of the Scriptures . There be no Commaundementes of Christe , but sutch onely , as so be taken , and holden by the Churche . Therefore the Scriptures folowe the Churche : but contrariewile the Churche foloweth not the Scriptures . Iohan. Maria Verractus . Editus est , Ann. 1561. Alb. Pigghius Hierar . li. 1. a. 2. Alb Pigghius in controuersijs . De Ecclesia . Likewise saithe Iohannes Maria Verractus , Humiliter confitemur , Ecclesiae Authoritatem esse Supra Euangelium ? We doo humbly confesse , that the Authoritie of the Churche is aboue the Authoritie of the Gospel . Likewise Albertus Pigghius saithe , Apostoli quaedam Scripserunt : non vt Scripta illa praeessent Fidei , & Religioni nostrae , sed potiùs , vt subessent . Scripturae sunt Muti Iudices : Scripturae sunt veluti Cereus Na●us : The Apostles haue written certaine thinges : not that theire saide Writinges shoulde rule our Faithe , or Religion : but rather , that they should be vnder , and be ruled by our Faith . The Scriptures are doumbe Iudges : The Scriptures are like a Nose of waxe .

By theise , and other like vnreuerente , and godlesse speaches , they séeke to leade the poore simple deceiued people from the Holy Scriptures , and Voice of God , to the Authoritie of theire Churche : by whiche Churche they vnderstande onely the Pope , and his Cardinalles .

But yée saie , These be the Priestes of the House of Leui : The Pope is the Iudge for the time , Deuter. Cap. 17. Heruaeus , De potesta . Papae . ca. 23 in the place , that our Lorde hath Chosen . Somme others of you sale , Papa est tota Ecclesia Virtualiter : The Pope is by Power , and vertue the whole Churche . What so euer these shal happen to saie , wée maie not swarue from theire Iudgemente , neither to the Right hand , nor to the Lefte hand . Whereupon the Hebrewe Glose noteth thus , Nicol Lyra in Deuter. Cap 17. Si dixerint tibi , quòd Dextra sit Sinistra , aut quòd Sinistra sit Dextra , talis Sententia tenenda est : Although they tel thee , that thy Right hande is thy Lefte hande : or that thy Lefte hande is thy Right hande , yet sutche a Sentence muste be holden as good .

S. Augustine , The Churche aboue Goddes woorde . ye saie , holdeth harde of your side . He saithe , Non crederem Euangelio , nisi me Ecclesiae Catholicae Authoritas commoueret : I woulde not beleue the Gospel , excepte the Authoritie of the Catholique Churche moued me . These fewe poore woordes haue benne tossed of your parte , and wroonge , and pressed to the vttermoste , Augustin contra Epistolam Fundamen . Cap. 5. to yeelde out that , was neuer in them . For hereby yée would faine proue , that the Authoritie of the Churche , whereby yee euermore vnderstande your Churche of Rome , and none other , is aboue the Authoritie of Goddes Woorde : that is to saie , that the Creature is aboue the Creatoure , that made Heauen , and Earthe .

But what if S. Augustine , as he saithe , I beleue the Gospel bicause of the Churche , haue likewise saide , I beleue the Churche bicause of the Gospel ? Then , I trowe , yee muste turne your tale , and saie , The Gospel is aboue the Churche . His woordes be plaine : August . In Psalmum . 57. Ex ore Veritatis Ecclesiam agnosco participem Veritatis : By the Mouthe of ( God , that is ) the Truthe , I knowe the Churche , that is partetaker of the Truthe . Augustin . De Vnitate Ecclesiae , Ca. 2. Againe he saithe , Nolo , Humanis Documentis , sed Diuinis Oraculis Ecclesiam Sanctam demonstrari : Ecclesiam quaerere debemus in Verbis Christi , qui est Veritas , & optim è nouit Corpus suum : Ecclesiam sine vlla ambiguitate Sancta Scriptura demonstrat : Augustin . contra Cresconi . Grammat . Li. 1. Ca. 33. In Scripturis Sanctis Ecclesia manifestè cognoscitur : Ecclesiam , sicut ipsum Caput , in Scripturis Sanctis Canonicis debemus agnoscere : I woulde , the Churche shoulde be shewed , not by the Decrees of Menne , Augustin . De Vnita . Ecclesiae , Ca. 16. but by the Heauenly Oracles , or Wordes of God : Wee muste seeke the Churche in the Woordes of Christe , whiche is the Truthe , and beste knoweth his owne Body : The Holy Scripture sheweth vs the Churche without doubtinge : In the Holy Scripture the Churche is plainely knowen : Augustin . eodem loco . Wee muste knowe the Churche by the Holy Canonical Scriptures , as we know ( Christe , that is ) the Heade .

Likewise saithe Chrysostome , Chrysostom . in Matth. Hom. 49. Nullo modo cognoscitur , quae sit Vera Ecclesia , nisi tantummodò per Scripturas : It is not any waies knowen , whiche is the True Churche of Christe , but Onely by the Scriptures .

And thus , for as mutche as wée knowe , bothe Christe by the Churche , and the Churche by Christe , the one geeuinge euidence to the other , by this reckeninge , M. Hardinge , and by your shiftinge of turnes , wee muste sometimes place Christe aboue the Churche , and sommetimes the Churche aboue Christe .

Now be it , S. Augustines minde was not , to commence an Action bitwene Christe and his Churche , in comparison of theire Dignities , or for trial , and keepinge of their boundes : or , to teache vs , that the Truthe of God taketh Authoritie of the Churche : but onely , to shewe vs , that the Churche is a witnesse to Goddes Truthe . And certainely it hath greate weight of persuasion , to moue the Conscience of any man , to sée so many Kingedomes , & Countries to ioine togeather in the profession , and obedience of one Truthe . And I doubte not , but euen this daie , many thousandes are the sooner leadde , to humble them selues vnto the Gospel of Christe , for that they see , the whole worlde , that is to saie , the whole Churche of God , is contented so willingly , & so humbly to embrace the same . Dauid , to testifie the Truthe , Psalm. 18. Roman . 10. Psalm. 76. and certainetie of the Gospel , saithe thus , The sounde of the Apostles wente oute into al the Barthe , and the Woordes of them into the endes of al the Worlde . This is the turninge of the Right hande of God .

Therefore S. Augustine saithe vnto Faustus the Heretique , Augustin . contra Faustum . Lib. 32. Cur non potiùs Euangelicae Authoritati , tam Fundatae , tam stabilitae , tanta gloria diffamarae , atque ab Apostolorum temporibus , Cap. 19. vsque ad nostra tempora , per Successiones certissimas commendatae , te non subdis ? Why doest thou not rather submitte thee selfe vnto the Authoritie of the Gospel , beinge so grounded , so stablished , Preached , and published with so greate glorie , commended , and deliuered vnto vs by most certaine Successions from the time of the Arostles , vntil our time ?

Likewise in this same place by you alleged , S. Augustine saithe , The Churche aboue Goddes woor de . Ego non crederem Euangelio , nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret Authoritas . Quibus ergo obtemperaui dicentibus , Credite Euangelio , Cur eis non obtemperem dicentibus , Noli credere Manichaeo ? I woulde not beleue the Gospel , onlesse the Authoritie of the Catholique Churche moued me . Augustin . contra Epist. Fundam . Ca. 5. Seeinge therefore I haue obeied them , saieinge to me , Beleeue the Gospel , why should I not also obeie them saieinge vnto me , Beleeue not Manichee ?

Thus the consente of the Churche heareth witnesse to the Gospel : without whiche witnesse notwithstanding , the Gospel neuerthelesse were the Gospel stil . Therefore Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in Matth. Hom. 49. Si dixerint , in ipsis Veris Ecclesijs Christum apparuisse , nolite eis credere dicentibus ista deme : Quia non est digna Diuinitatis meae notitia haec : If they shal tel you , that Christe hath appeared , yea euen in the very True Churches , yet beleue them not saieinge thus of mee : For this is no meete knowledge for my Godhedde .

To conclude , M. Hardinge , wée wil saie to you , as S. Augustine sommetime saide to the Donatian Heretiques , auancinge their onely Churche in Aphrica , euen as you nowe auance onely your Churche of Rome : August De Vnitate Ecclesiae , Ca. 11. Nos post vocem Pastoris nostri , per ora Prophetarum , per os proprium , per ora Euangelistarum nobis aperrissimè declaratam , voces vestras non admittimus , non credimus , non accipimus : After the voice of our Shepehearde , vttered moste plainely vnto vs by the mouthes of the Prophetes , by his owne mouthe , and by the mouthes of the Euangelistes , if ye bringe vs your owne voices , wee allowe them not , wee beleeue them not , wee receiue them not .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 1.

Our Churche , saie thei , cannot erre . They speake that ( I thinke ) as the Lacedaemonians longe sithence vsed to saie , that it was not possible to finde any Adulterer in al their Common Healthe : whereas in deede they were rather al Adulterers , and had no certaintie in their Marriages , but had their wiues in common amongest them al : Or , as the Canonistes at this daie , for theire bellies sake , vse to saie of the Pope , Summa Angelica , in dictione Papa . that , for so mutch as he is Lorde of al Benefices , though he selle for monie , Bishoprikes , Monasteries , Priesthoode , Spiritual Promotions , Theodoricus de Schismate . and parte with nothinge freely , yet bicause he counteth al his owne , he cannot committe Simonie , though he would neuer so faíne . But how strongly , & agreably to reason these things be spoken , wee are not as yet hable to perceiue , excepte perchaunce these menne haue plucked of the whinges from the Truthe , as the Romaines in olde time did proine , Plutarchus . and pinion their Goddesse Victorie , after they had once gotten her home , to the ende , that with the same whinges she shoulde neuer be able , to flee awaie from them againe .

M. Hardinge .

Towarde the ende of your Apologie , Syr Defender , who so euer you be , that pieced it togeather , you doo but trifle . Of like your stuffe is spence . For here litle saie you , that you haue not saide already . Wherefore I craue Pardon of the Reader , if accordinge to the slendernesse of matters obiected , my * * This is good plaine dealinge . For in deede this Answeare is very sclender . confutation seeme also slender . Sir you doo now but patche peeces togeather , whiche you haue gathered out of your note Bookes , into the same infar●ed , some out of the Canonistes , some out of the Scoolemen , and them not of the greatest estimation , most of al out of Humanitie bookes , wherein you be pretely seene . And that seemeth to be your chiefe profession . As for Diuinitie , there appeareth no greate knowledge in you . What ye rehearse of the Lacedemonians , it perteineth to your owne companies , no lesse , then to them , I meane onely your Apostates , Monkes , and Friers , Priestes , and Nonnes .

You finde greate faulte in the Canonistes that be at this daie , and name in your Margent Summa Angelica , the Author whereof died many yeeres paste . If he , Theodoricus , what so euer he was , or any other Canoniste offende you , as for his bellies sake , speakinge of the Pope , that should sette your teeth anedge : what pertaineth that to vs , who defende the Catholike Faithe , not the saieinges of euery Canoniste ? You were beste , seeinge you make so muche adoo with them , to Article their errours , and either write a railinge Booke against them , which ye ‡ ‡ With M. Hardinges good instructions . can easely doo , or sende one of your best learned superintendentes to Bononia , there in open scoole with disputations to confute them . And so doubtlesse ye shal either conuerte them , whiche were a woorthy acte : or proue your selues fooles , whiche were greate pitie .

But to answeare your obiection , we saie , firste , that you alleage Summa Angelica falsely . Nothing is founde soundinge to that you burthen the Pope withall in the place by you quoted , in dict. Papa . Nexte , whereas it is written in Summa Angelica , In curia Romana titulus de Simonia non habet locum , In dict. Simonia . you , Syr Defender , either nor knowinge what folowed , or of malice abusinge the place , haue reported the same , as if it were precisely saide without any distinction . Whereas in deede the selfe same Summe vseth this distinction , saieinge , Ver. vtrum actoritas . Verum est in ijs quae sunt Simoniaca de iure positiuo solùm : sed non in ijs quae sunt Simoniaca de iure diuino . Whereby he meaneth that the Pope is not vnder the rules of Simonie concerninge * * A woorthy distinction . Hereby the Pope maie selle Bishoprikes , and Benefices without Simonie . suche lawes and paines , as he himselfe , or his predecessours haue made in that behalfe . For they haue made many thinges belonginge thereto , as you may well knowe your selfe , who are so pretely seene in the Canon Lawe , as it may appeare by the often and cunninge allegations whiche you bringe out of the Gloses . But concerninge ‡ ‡ This kinde of Simonie standeth onely in , sellinge of Orders , and Sacramentes , &c. that Simonie , whiche properly is so called , the Pope is nolesse subiecte thereto by the true iudgement of Summa Angelica , * * Vntruthe shamelesse , as shal appeare . whiche you haue shamefully belied , then any other man .

You iest at Gods blessed Truthe alwaies remaininge in his Holy Churche , and prophanely resemble it to a birde proined and pinyoned , that it flie not a waie . As though the Churche kepte truthe with suche policie , as the olde Romaines are fained , to haue kepte their Goddesse Victorie . Well Syr , we tell you in sadnesse , we are assured of the Truthe , that it is in the Churche , and that it shall neuer departe from thence . And if ye call this , cuttinge away of her winges , that it neuer flie from the Churche : wee graunte they be cut in suche sorte , as shee shall keepe the Churche for euer as her owne neast . And will you knowe who telleth vs this ? Euen God him selfe , saieinge in his Prophete Esaye to Christe of his Churche : Esai . 59. I will make this couenaunt with them , saithe our Lorde : My spirite whiche is in thee , and my woordes whiche I haue put in thy mouthe , ‡ ‡ Ful discretely , and wel applied : As if these woordes had benne meante of the Pope , and his Successours . shall not departe from thy mouthe , and from the mouthe of thy seede , and from the mouthe of thy seedes seede , saithe our Lorde , from this time foorthe , for euermore .

Againste this truthe , what so euer ye bringe in reproufe of Popes liues , whom not withstandinge moste impudently ye belie , what vndiscrete saieinges , or flateries so euer ye burthen the Canonistes with , all tourneth to nothinge . The Truthe remaineth vnshaken : your spirite of lieinge , scoffinge , and malice thereby is discyfred .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , yée saie , Sir Defender is pretily séene in Humanitie : For that , yée saie , séemeth to be his chiefe profession . Verily , M. Hardinge , Wee are wel pleased , to take sutche , and so mutche learninge , as you maie spare vs . Wee contende onely for Truthe , and not for Learninge . What so euer our Learninge be , if it maie please God , to vse it to his Glorie , it shal be sufficiente , be it neuer so litle . How be it , had you not had somme good likinge in your owne Learninge , yée woulde not vpon so simple occasions haue vpbraided others .

Touchinge that , The Pope cannot commit Simonie . sundrie of your Doctours haue saide , the Pope cannot commit Simonie , firste it shal be necessarie in that behalfe , to consider the state , and practise of the Churche of Rome . S. Bernarde , writinge vnto Pope Eugenius , saith , Limina Apostolorum Ambitio iam plùm terit , Bernardus de Consideratione . Li. 3. quàm Deuotio . Vocibus Ambitionis vestrum toto die resultat Palatium : Ambitio in Ecclesia per te regnare molitur : The Apostles Entries , or Gates in Rome , are nowe more worne with Ambition , then with Deuotion . Al the daie longe your Palaice ringeth with the sounde of Ambition . By thy meanes , Ambition seeketh to reigne in the Churche of God . Againe he saith , Bernardus in Conuersione Pauli . Sermo . 1. Dè Ciuitate Dei Li. 18. Cap. 22. Viues . Sacri gradus dati sunt in occasionem turpis Lucri : & quaestum aestimant Pietatem : The Holy Degrees , or Ecclesiastical roumes are geeuen ouer to occasion of filthy gaine : and the same gaine they coumpte Holinesse . Ludouicus Viues saith , Romae cùm omnia propè vendantur , & emantur , nihil tamen agas sine Lege , ac Formula , atque euam Sanctissimi iuris : At Rome , not withstandinge al thinges be boughte , and solde , yet maie yee doo nothinge there without Fourme , and Order , and that of most Holy Religion .

Your owne Glose saithe , In Sexto De Electione & Elect . potest . Fundamenta . In Glossa . Roma est Caput Auaritiae . Ideò omnia ibi venduntur : Rome is the Heade of Couetousnesse . Therefore al thinges there are boughte , and solde . Where as also Iohannes Andreae , your greate Canoniste , noteth this Verse , alludinge to the name of Rome , Roma manus rodit : quos rodere non valet , odit .

Durandus saithe , Durandus de modo Celebrandi Concil. Ti. 20. Simonie so reigneth in the Churche of Rome , as though in deede it were no Sinne . To be shorte , these twoo Veries were commonly spreadde of Pope Alexander , Vendit Alexander Claues , Altaria , Christum . Vendere iure potest : Emerat ipse priús . Musculus in Iohan . Cap. 6.

Pope Alexander maketh sale of his Keies , of his Aultares , and of Christe him selfe . Wel maie he lesse these thinges : for he him selfe paied wel for them .

Notwithstanding , ye doubte not , but al this , by a prety soary Distinction , maie soone be excused . For thus yée saie : Verum est in ijs , quae sunt Simoniaca de lure Posiiuo solùm : Summa Angeli . in Simonia . Sed non in ijs , quae sunt Simoniaca de lure Diuino . Whereby , ye saie , the Authoure meaneth , that the Pope is not vnder the Rules of Simonie , concerninge sutche Lawes , & paines , as he him selfe , or his Predecessoures haue made , and prouided in that behalfe . And therefore , as your modeste manner is , yee saie , wee haue falsely alleged , and shamefully belied Summa Angelica . But why doo you not better open the seueral partes of your Distinction ? Why doo ye not better tea● he vs to vnderstande , what is Simonie by Lawe Positiue : and what is Simonie by the Lawe of God ? And why doo yée not declare eche parte by plaine Examples ? Seeinge you thus to steale awaie in the darke , wée haue somme cause to doubte your dealinge .

How be it , to make the matter plaine , your owne Glose saith thus , Simoniaca desui Natura , Extra . De Officio Iudicis Delegati . Ex parte N. In Clossa . sunt quae Nouo , aut Vereri Testamento prohibita sunt : vt , Emere , vel Vendere Sacramenta , Simoniaca de Iure Positiuo , sunt , quae solùm sunt Spiritualia ex Constitutione Ecclesiae : vt sunt Tituli Beneficiorum Ecclesiasticorum &c. These thinges are Simoniacal of their owne Nature , that are forebidden in the Olde , and Newe Testamente : as to buie , or selle Sacramentes . These thinges are Simoniacal by Lawe Positiue , whiche are Spiritual onely by the ordinance of the Churche . Sutche are the Titles of al Ecclesiastical Benefices , and Dignities : Ac be Bishoprikes . Deanries , Abbies , Archedeaconries , &c. Thus , M. Hardinge , if your Pope selle Sacramentes , whiche wil yéelde him but litle monie , He maie be charged with Simonie . The Pope cannot commit Simonie . But if he selle Bishoprikes , Deanries , Abbies , Archedeaconries , Prebendes , Personages , neuer so many , yet by the shifte of your prety Distinction , noman maie charge him . For al these thinges are Spiritual , onely by the Popes owne Positiue Lawe , that is to saie , by the Ordinance of the Churche . And thinke you not , so good a Distinction was wel woorthe the findinge oute ? One of your owne Companie , speakinge hereof , saithe thus : O Petre , Aureum Speculum . quantam animarum multitudinem cateruatim transmisit , & transmittit ad Infernum haec Superstitialis , & Damnanda Distinctio ? Multis est occasio , & viam aperit and ruinam Damnationis aeternae : O Peter Peter , howe many Soules hath this Superstitious , and Damnable Distinction sente by heapes , and yet doothe dayly sende into Hel ? It is an occasion vnto many , and openeth the waie vnto the fal of Euerlastinge Damnation .

To make the mater plaine , ff. De Offi. praeroris . L. Barbarius . Colum. 2. Baldus saithe , Simonia non cadit in Papam recipientem : Though the Pope take monie , yet no Simonie can touche him . In like sorte saithe his felowe Bartolus , Papa non dicitur facere Simoniam , conferendo Beneficia , ff. Eod. Titulo . Ead. L. Bartolus . & Dignitates , accepta Pecunia : The Pope is not saide , to commit Simonie , although he take Monie for the Benefices , and Dignities of the Churche .

Theodoricus saithe , Papa non potest committere Simoniam . Sic tenent Iuristae . Theodoricus De Schismate inter Vrban . & Clement . Lib. 2. Ca. 32. Quia Simonia excusatur per Authoritatem eius : The Pope cannot commit Simonie . So holde the Canonistes . For Simonie by his Authoritie is excused . Felinus saithe , Ista Glosa videtur dicere , quód Papa non committit Simoniam in recipiendo pecuniam pro collatione Beneficiorum : ex quo non ligatur proprijs Constitutionibus . Tamen Moderni tenent indistinctè , quòd Papa non inuoluatur Crimine Simoniae : Felinus de Officio Iudicis delegati . Ex parte . N. Et ita ego teneo : Et sic est seruanda communis opinio . Ergo Papa potest dictam prohibitionem Simoniae firmatam in Vniuersali Ecclesia , limitare respectu Apostolicae Sedis . Et si diceres , Requiritur in talibus apparens causa , dico , hîc esse causam apparentem . Nam cessante tali redditu , qui maximus est , attenta hodierna Tyrannide , Sedes Apostolica contemneretur : This Glose seemeth to saie , that the Pope committeth not Simonie , receiuinge monie for the bestowinge of Benefices : for as mutche as the Pope is not bounde to his owne Constitutions . Yet nowe adaies the Lawiers holde , without any sutche Distinction , ( of Lawe Positiue , and Lawe of God ) that the Pope cannot in any wise comme within the daunger of Simonie . And so I mee selfe doo holde : and so the common opinion must be holden . A iuste , and a reasonable cause , wherefore the Pope maie selle Bishoprikes , Deanries , Abbies &c. Extra De Simonia , Ca. 1. Numero . 6. Fol. 18. Abb. Archidiacon . in Tract . De Haeresi . ver. Et quia tanta est . Therefore , notwithstandinge the Lawe that forebiddeth Simonie , take place in the whole Vniuersal Churche , yet in respecte of the Apostolique See of Rome , it maie be restrained . But thou wilte saie , In sutch cases there ought to be some apparente cause . I telle the , that there is a cause apparente . For this reuene we ( of Simonie ) whiche is very greate , beinge once cutte of , consideringe the Tyrannie , that nowe is , the Apostolique See woulde be despised . By this authoritie it appeareth , The Pope is not able to mainteine his Estate , and Countenance , nor to saue al thinges vpright , without Simonie .

Panormitane saithe , Etsi Papa accipiat pecuniam pro collatione alicuius Praelaturae , aut Beneficij , tamen Dominus Cardinalis ait , Non committitur Simonia : Notwithstandinge the Pope take monie for the bestoweinge of a Bishoprike , or of a Benefice , yet my Lorde Cardinal saithe , there is committed no Simonie . Archidiaconus Florentinus saithe , Papa recipiendo pecuniam , non praesumitur animo vendendi recipere : Sed vt illa pecunia ad vsum suum conuertatur : cùm Papa sit Dominus Rerum Temporalium , per illud dictum Petri , Dabo tibi Omnia Regna Mundi : The Diuels Woordes alleged vnder the name of S. Peter . The Pope receiuing monie ( for Bishoprikes , or Benefices ) is not thought to take it by waie of sale : but onely , to turne the same monie to his owne vse . For the Pope is Lorde of al worldly goodes , as it appeareth by the woordes of Peter ( whiche woo● des notwithstandinge Peter neuer spake : for they were spoken by Sathan ) Vnto thee wil I geeue al the Kingedomes of the Worlde . The Pope cannot commit Simonie .

Againe Felinus saith , Quod datur Papae datur Sacrario Petri : nec est proprium Papae : Sed prodest danti , tanquam facienti opus pijssimum : What so euer is geeuen to the Pope , Felinus De Offi. Iudicus delega . Ex parte . N. ( for Bishoprike , or Benefce , by waie of Simonie ) it is geeuen to S. Peters Treasurie . Neither is it the Popes owne seueral goodes . But it is auaileable to the geeuer , as vnto one , that doothe a moste Godly deede . Sutche a special grace hath the Pope . Of moste Diuelishe Vice , The Pope changeth Vice into Vertue . he is hable to make moste godly Vertue .

Hostiensis saithe , Papa potest vendere Titulum Ecclesiasticum , vt Episcopatum , Abbatiam , &c. The Pope maie selle any Ecclesiastical Title , or Dignitie , as a Bishoprike , or an Abbie , without danger of Simonie .

But , Extra De Simonia . Ca. 1. Hostien . what speake wee of the Pope ? Your Cardinalles them selues , by your fauourable Constructions , and godly orders , are likewise Priuileged , to committe Simonie , safely , and freely , & without blame . Panormitane saith , Cardinalis , pro Palafreno à nobili viro recepto , Extra . De simnia , Eisi questiones non praesumitur committere Simoniam : A Cardinal , for receiuinge a Palfraie of a Noble Man , ( for a Benefice , or a Bishoprike ) is not thought to commit Simonie .

Thus , whereas Christe draue Buiers , and Sellers out of the Churche , you by your proper Distinctions , haue receiued in Buiers , and Sellers , and thruste oute Christe . Hieronymus . S. Hierome saithe , Per Nummularios significantur Beneficij Ecclesiastici venditores : qui Domum Dei faciunt Speluncam Latronum : By the Exchangers are signified the Sellers of Ecclesiastical Benefices : whiche make the House of God , a Denne of Theeues . 1. Quaest. 1. Eos qui. In your owne Decrees it is written hus , Tolerabilior est Macedonij Haeresis , qui asserit , Spiritum Sanctum esse Seruum Patris , & Filij . Nam isti faciunt Spiritum Sanctum Seruum suum : The Heresie of Macedonius , that saide , the Holy Ghoste is Seruante , and sclaue to the Father , and to the Sonne , is more tolerable , then is the Heresie of these simonistes . For these menne make the Holy Ghoste their owne Seruante .

Yet , yée saie , yee are wel assured , that the Truthe is in the Churche of Rome , and shal neuer departe from thence , notwithstandinge any disorder , or faulte whatsoeuer , there committed . And for proufe thereof , yee allege , as yée saie , the Woordes of God him selfe in the Prophete Esaie . Esaie. 59. Al be it , in that whole Prophete , there is not one woorde expressely mentioned of the Churche of Rome . Sutche a fantasie , as it appeareth , was sommetimes in the Heretiques , called the Manichees . For thus thei saide , Augustin . De Natura Boni , Ca 46. A Principibus Gentis Tenebrarum Lumen , ne ab ijs aufugeret , tenebatur : The Princes of the Nation of Darkenesse helde faste the Light , leaste it shoulde flee from them . For euen so doothe the Pope , and his Cardinalles holde the Truthe , as the Princes , or Powers of Darkenesse helde the Lighte . It was harde dealinge for you , to binde Christe in Recognisance , not to departe from the Pope : yee should rather haue bounde the Pope , not to departe from Christe .

S. Hierome saithe , Hieronym . in Michaeam . Ca. 4. Prophetae Hierusalem non habent in ore Prophetiam : Et in Domino requiescunt , & dicunt : Non venient super nos mala . Quorum causa Speculatorium Dei hostili aratro diuiditur : Et locus , quondam pacis , ruinis plenus fit : & Templum Domini in vepres , spinasque conuertitur , & est Habitaculum bestiarum : The Prophetes of Hierusalem haue neuer a woorde of Prophesie in their mouthes . Yet they reaste them selues vpon the Lorde , and saie , There shal no euil comme vpon vs . For thene sakes the Watche Tower of the Lorde is turned vp with the enimies Pleughe : the place of peace is ful of ruine : the Temple of the Lorde is turned into Breeres , and Thornes : and is becomme a stable of wilde beastes .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 2.

But what if Ieremie telle them , as is afore rehearsed , that these be Lies ? What if the same Prophete saie in an other place , that the selfe same menne , Hieremi. 12. whoe ought to be Keepers of the Vineyarde , haue brought to nought , and destroied the Lordes Vineyarde ? Howe if Christe saie , that the same persones , whoe chiefely ought to haue a care ouer the Temple , Matthae . 21. haue made the Lordes Temple a denne of Theeues ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here come you in with your whatiffes , whiche commonly you vse , when other Rhetorike faileth you . Wee tell you plainely without any iffes , that * * Learnedly proued . Ieremie meante of you , and suche as you be , and calleth your whole newe fangled Doctrine , Verba mendacij , the woordes of lieinge , earnestly geuinge warninge , that menne geue no credite to them . His other rebuke perteineth also to you . When were euer suche Theeues in the Churche of God , as yee are ?

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 1.

If it be so , that the Churche of Rome cannot erre , it muste needes folowe , that the good lucke thereof is farre greater , then al these mennes policie . For sutche is their Life , their Doctrine , and their Diligence , that for al them , the Churche maie not onely erre , but also vtterly be spoiled , and perish● . No doubte , if that Churche maie erre , whiche hath departed from Goddes Woorde , from Christes Commaundementes , from the Apostles Ordinaunces , from the Primitiue Churches Examples , from the Olde Fathers , and Councelles Orders , and from their owne Decrees , and whiche wil be bounde within the compasse of none , neither Olde , nor Newe , nor their owne , nor other folkes , nor Mannes Lawe , nor Goddes Lawe , then it is out of al question , that the Romishe Churche hath not onely had power to erre , but also that it hathe shamefully , and moste wickedly erred in very deede .

M. Hardinge .

A man would haue thought , you woulde haue brought some substantiall Argumente , whereby to prooue , that the Churche erreth . Neither make you excuse in that , you speake of the Romaine Churche . The Churche of Rome is the whole Catholique Churche . In this accompte wee make no difference betwene the Romaine Churche , and the Churche . But all your proufes depende vpon your iffes , whiche beinge denied , you haue nomore to saie . No doubte ( saie you ) if that Churche maie erre , whiche hath departed from Goddes Woorde , from Christes Commaundementes , &c. then it hath erred in very deede . But Syr , what if a man denie your supposal , and staie you in your firste if ? What haue you to prooue it ? All that you haue saide hitherto . We knowe , and of litle force it is . But no doubte , saie you , if that Churche maie erre , which hath departed from Goddes Woorde , &c. Yea forsoothe , if all iffes were true , then if Heauen fell , wee shoulde catche Larkes . And if a bridge were made betwene Douer and Calys , wee mighte goe to Boleine a foote , as William Somer once tolde Kinge Henry , if it be true , that I haue hearde saie .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here in nothinge els , but onely the Canonization of poore William Sommer . While your Bookes , M. Hardinge , shal liue , al his sage sawes shal neuer die .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 2.

But saie they , ye haue benne of our Felowship , but nowe ye are becomme foresakers of your Profession , and haue departed from vs . It is trewe : We haue departed from them , & , for so dooinge , we bothe geeue thankes to Almighty God , & greatly reioice on our owne behalfe . But yet for al this , from the Primitiue Churche , from the Apostles , and from Christe wee haue not departed . True it is : Wee were brought vp with these menne in darkenesse , and in the lacke of the knowledge of God , as Moses was brought vp in the Learning , & in the bosome of the Egyptians . We haue benne of your Companie , Tertull. in Apologetico . saithe Tertullian , I confesse it : and no marueile at al : For , saith he , menne be made , and not borne Christians .

M. Hardinge .

Wee saie , ( as ye reporte ) that ye haue benne once of our Felowship , but now ye are become Apostates and foresakers of your Profession , By this whole discourse , Christ , and his Apostles maie be condemned . and haue wickedly departed from vs . By the name of vs , we meane not some one particular companie , but Christes Catholike Churche . We saie of you , as S. Ihon saide of the like , 1. Ioan. ● . whome he calleth Antichristes : Ex nobis exierunt , sed non erant ex nobis . Nam si fuissent ex nobis , permansissent vtique nobiscum : They are departed from out of vs , but they were not of vs . For if they had benne of vs , they had doubteles remained still with vs .

But what is your answeare hereunto ? It is desperate , foolishe , and lieinge . Firste , ye confesse the thinge , and not onely that , but also thanke God for it , and greatly reioice in it . And therein ye folowe the woorse sorte of Sinners , Prouerb . ● . of whom Salomon saithe , Laetantur cùm malè fecerint , & exultant in rebus pessimis : They be glad when they haue donne euil , and reioice in the worste thinges that are . Ye haue diuided the Churche of God , ye haue rente our Lordes nette , ye haue cut his whole wouen cote , which the wicked Souldiers , that Crucified him , could not finde in their hartes to doo . Dionysius Alexandrinus , writinge to Nouatus the greate Heretike , who did as ye haue donne , saithe thus vnto him , as Eusebius reciteth , Eccles. Hisit . Lib. 6. Ca. 5. in Graecis . whereby yee maie esteeme the greatnesse of your crime : Thou shouldest haue suffered what so euer it were , that the Churche of God mighte not be diuided . And martyrdome suffered for that the Churche shoulde not be diuided , is no lesse glorious , then that which is suffered for not dooinge Idolatrie . Yea in mine opinion it is greater . For there one is martyred for his owne onely Soule , and here for the whole Churche . Thus it foloweth , that by your Apostasie , and by your diuidinge of Goddes Churche , yee haue donne more wickedly , ‡ ‡ A good excuse of Idolatrie . then if yee committed Idolatrie .

But yet for all this , ( saie they ) from the Primitiue Churche , from the Apostles , and from Christe we haue not departed . What can be saide more foolishly ? Why Syrs , * * Yes verily : Euen as the House of God , and the Caue of Theeues were al One Temple : Matthae . 21. is not the Primitiue Churche and this of our time one Churche ? Dothe it not holde togeather by continuall Succession till the worldes ende ? What , hath Christe moe Churches then one ? Is the Primitiue Churche quite donne , and now muste there beginne a newe ? Is not Christe , his Apostles , and all true beleuers , in what time or place so euer they liue , his one mysticall Body , whereof he is the Head all other the members ? As Christe is one , the Holy Ghoste one , one Faithe , one Baptisme , one Vocation , one God : so is the Churche one , whiche beganne at the firste man , and shall endure to the laste : whereof the liuinge parte on earthe before the comminge of Christe into Fleashe , was sometime broughte to small number : after his comminge , and after that the Apostles had Preached and spreadde the Gospell abroade , the number neither was euer , nor shal be other then greate ( though sometime accompted , small in respect of the vnbeleuers ) vntil the comminge againe of the Sonne of Man , Luc. 1● . at what time he shall skantly finde Faithe , specially that whiche woorketh by Charitie , in the Earth . Against whiche time busely ye make preparation .

For some parte of excuse of your forsakinge the Churche , ye saie , ye were brought vp with vs in darkenesse , and in the lacke of knowledge of God , as Moses was amonge the Aegyptians : For that ye bringe out of Tertullian , helpeth you nothinge at all . I praie you Syrs , what darkenesse meane ye ? Speake ye of Sinne ? Wee excuse not our selues . But when tooke ye out the beame of your owne eies , that yee espie the mote of our eie ? It were well ye proued your selues honest menne , before ye required vs to be Angels . If ye meane the darkenesse of ignorance , as peraduenture ye doo , and the lacke of knowledge of God : Now that ye are departed from vs , and haue set chaire against chaire , ( I see not cause why to saie , Aulter against Aulter ) what more and better knowledge of God haue ye , then we haue , and euer haue had ? Doo we not know the Articles of our belefe ? Tell vs , whiche doo we lacke ? This is life Euerlastinge ( saithe our Sauiour in the Gospell ) to knowe thee God alone , and whom thou haste sente Iesus Christe . Ioan. 17. Matth. 16. So farre as God lightneth our vnderstandinge with the Supernaturall Here M. Hardinge laieth out his heapes of Learninge . light of his grace , this muche wee know . For which Peter the Sonne of Iona was accompted blessed of Christe , the same we sinne full Papistes through Gods grace , also knowe and confesse . The Commaundementes of God we knowe : what is good , what is euill , whiche be sinnes , whiche be Vertues , what is to be folowed , what is to be shunned , so farre as is behoofull , we be not ignorant .

What is the darkenesse then , for whiche ye would needes be gonne from vs ? And what is that woorthy knowledge ye haue wonne by your departure ? Tell vs , that we maie bte the Bookes , and goe to scoole with you . Truly without ye haue some hidden and secrete knowledge , which ye haue not vttered to the worlde hitherto , as we beleue ye haue not , beinge suche boasters as ye are : we see litle cause , ye should twite vs of ignorance , and bragge of your owne knowledge . This we see full well , they that runne away from vs to your side , be they Monkes or Friers , Tinkers or Tapsters , Coblers or Bodgers , white or blacke , by and by in your Synagoges they be great Rabbins . And ye the superintendentes admitte them to be your Ministers and Preachers of the woorde , and tell them they can doo well , and they beleue no lesse themselues . But the people take them for suche , as they knewe them before they tooke suche degree , and many times for their good behauiour , they foregete their Holy Ministerie , and Christen them by their common name , whiche was not geuen them at the Fonte . Yet all this proueth not either our ignorance , or your maruelous and rare knowledge . Neither shall ye euer be able to proue to any man of learninge and iudgement , that in any liberall sciences , or righte knowledge of the Scriptures , ye are comparable to the learned menne of the Catholike Churche . Though about fifty yeeres paste and vpwarde for a space , the studies of eloquence and of tonges were intermitted , yet then and before those times was there no smal number of men , who had profounde knowledge of all good Artes , and specially of the Holy Letters . I reporte me to Thomas Walden , who very learnedly confuted the Heresies of your greate Graundfather Iohn Wicklef , to Alcuinus in the great Charles time , to Beda before that , all three English men , to Anselme and Lanckfrancke Bishops of Englande , though strangers borne , to S. Thomas of Aquine , S. Bernarde , Rupertus , and hundreds moe , whiche here is no place to recken . Were not they , by confession of all , greate Clerkes ? doo not the beste learned of our time , in obscure matters fetche light of them ? To saie the Truthe , in comparison of their cleare light , your ill sauoringe snoffes maie scantly seeme to yeelde a darke smoke . Many talke of your painted sheath , who , were they learned in dede , woulde soone perceiue neither that to be very freshe and gaie : for as for your sworde , what rusty and beggerly met all it is , the wiser parte of the worlde seeth . ‡ ‡ A very Learned , and a worthy Conclusion . But woe be to them , that calle Light Darkenesse , and Darkenesse Lighte : Esai . ● . Therefore ye shall do well , Syrs , to speake no more of the darkenesse and ignorance of the Catholike Churche , and to boast lesse of your greate cunninge , and knowledge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Your heade was very idle , M. Hardinge , when it coulde so easily yeelde vs sutche idle talke . If yée thinke it in no case to be lawful , to departe from them , what so euer thei be , that beare the shewe , and countenance of the Churche , then muste yée néedes condemne the Apostles , and Prophetes , and moste specially Christe him selfe . But let vs consider , from what companie wée are departed . So maie the causes of our departure the better appeare . For the Pope him selfe saithe not nay , but , vpon iuste considerations , any Churche maie leaue the Churche of Rome . Departing from the Churche of Rome . His owne woordes be these , Nulli agere licet , sine discretione Iustitiae , contra Disciplinam Romanae Ecclesiae : Without discretion of Justice , it is lawful for no man , to doo any thinge contrarie to the order of the Churche of Rome . By this the Popes owne Decree , Dist. 12. Non Decit . In Rubric . with discretion of Iustice , it is lawfull to doo contrarie to the Orders of the Churche of Rome .

But , for a shorte , and general viewe of that whole Churche in this behalfe , S. Bernarde saithe thus , Bernardus in Synodo Remensi . Parum est nostris Pastoribus , quòd non seruant nos , nisi & perdant . Non parcunt suis , qui non parcunt sibi , Perimentes pariter , & Pereuntes : It is not sufficient for our Bishoppes , that they saue vs not , onlesse they also doo destroie vs : Sparinge not them selues , they spare not their people . They doo bothe perishe them selues , and kille others . In eadem Synod . Againe he saithe , Non custodiunt hoc tempore Sponsam , sed perdunt : Non custodiunt Gregem Domini , sed mactant , & deuorant : They keepe not this daie , the Spouse of God , that is , his Churche , but they destroie her : They keepe not this Flocke , but they kille , and deuoure . He that writeth , Paralipomena Vrspergensis , in the storie of the Councel of Constance , saithe thus , Paralipom . Vrspergen . Pa. 396. Spiritum extinguebant : Prophetias aspernabantur : Christum in Membris suis persequebantur : Eratque planè Persequutrix Ecclesia : They oppressed the Sprite of God : they defied the Voices of the Prophetes : they persequuted Christe in his Members . And in deede the Churche was geeuen to woorke persequution .

Aeneas Siluius , Aeneas Sylui. in Epist. ad Casparem Schlickium . Paralipom . Vrspergen . in Clemen . 5. that afterwarde was Pope Pius . 2. saithe , Refriguit Charitas , & Fides omnis interijt : Charitie is waxen colde , and al Faithe is deade .

In the life of Pope Clemens . 5. it is written thus : Hic fuit Publicus Fornicator . Ab eo tempore defecit omnis Disciplina , & Religio in Cardinalibus : & tres Radices vitiorum , Superbia , Auaritia , Luxuria , validissimè dominantur : This Pope was an open Whoore maister . From that time forewarde , al kinde of Discipline , and Religion decaied in the Cardinalles : and three rootes of vices , Pride , Auarice , and Lecherie , mightily bare the swaie .

Antonius Marinarius , In Concil. Trid. Antonius Marinarius . at your late Chapter at Tridente , saithe thus of the Churche of Rome , Si Euangelica Fides nostrae vitae Regula esset , re ipsa Christiani essemus . Nunc Titulo , & Ceremonijs vocamur Christiani : If the Faithe of the Gospel were a Rule vnto our life , then shoulde wee be Christians in very deede . As nowe , by Titles , and Ceremonies , wee beare onely the name of Christians .

At the same Chapter , the Bishop of Bitonto saide thus , as I haue reported before : Concil. Trident. Episcopus Bitontinus . Quibus turpitudinum Monstris , qua sordium Coll●ute , qua Peste non sunt foedati , non corrupti in Ecclesia Sancta , & populus , & Sacerdos ? A Sanctuario Dei incipite : si vllus iam pudor , si vlla pudicitia , si vlla superest bene viuendi vel spes , vel ratio : With what Monsters of Filthinesse , with what Vilenesse , with what Pestilence be they not corrupted , and defiled in the Holy Churche ( of Rome ) , as wel the Prieste , as the People ? Beginne euen with the Sanctuarie of God : if there be any Shame , if there be any regarde of Honestie , if there be any Hope , or waie to liue wel .

An other saithe , Francis . Zephyrus in Apologeticum Tertulliani . O nos miseros , qui Christiani dicimur . Genres agimus sub nomine Christi : Miserable are wee , that are called Christians . We liue as Heathens , vnder the name of Christe . An other saithe , O lugenda Roma , quae nostris Maioribus clara Patrum Lumina protulisti : nostris temporibus , monstrosas tenebras , Arnulphus , aut Bernardus in Concil. Remen . Petrar . in Rithmis Italicis : Schola di Errori : è Tempio di Eresia . futuro saeculo famosas , offadisti : O miserable Rome , whiche in the time of oure Elders , haste brought foorthe the lightes of woorthy Fathers : but in our daies , haste broughte foorthe Monstrous Darkenesse , shameful , and sclaunderous to the time to comme . Petrarcha calleth Rome , a Schoole of Erroure , and a Temple of Heresie .

Brigitta , whose woordes , and Prophesies yée haue in reuerence , saithe in her Reuelations , Christus sumer Benedictionem à Clero Romano , & dabit eam alteri Genri facienti voluntatem Domini : Departing from the Churche of Ro●● Christe shal take his blessinge from the Cleregie of Rome : and shal geue the same vnto a people , that shal doo his wil.

By these sewe , wée maie conceiue the whole state of the Churche of Rome : whiche onely Churche , Herma●● Riddus . aboue al others , M. Hardinge telleth vs , is so founded in the Truthe , that it can neuer haue power to be deceiued .

Wee haue departed therefore , from Shepeheardes , that spoiled the flocke : From Bishoppes , that destroied the Churche : that oppressed the Sprite of God : that defied the voice of the Prophetes : that persequuted Christe in his members : that bothe perished them selues , and killed others : that walowed in monsters of filthinesse : that liued , as Heathens , vnder the name of Christe : That were voide of Charitie : voide of Faithe : voide of Discipline : voide of Religion : that were Christians onely in Titles , and Ceremonies : From whom Christe had withdrawen his Blessinge : To be shorte , wée haue departed from the Temple of Heresie , and from the Schoole of Erroure .

This , M. Hardinge , is the bewtie , and face of your Romaine Cleregie : this is that blessed Companie , that wée haue foresaken .

Yet , saie you , It had benne better , to haue died , then to haue broken the Vnitie of sutche a Churche . For your frendes tel you , that without the Obedience of the Bishop of Rome , De Maiorita & Obedient . Vnam Sanctam . Subesse Romano Pontifici , est de necessitate Salutis . there is no Hope of Saluation . Notwithstanding , your owne Clemens , whom ye commonly cal the Apostles Felowe , saithe thus , Schisma efficit , non qui ab Impijs secessionem facit , sed qui à Pijs : He maketh no Schisme , or Diuision in the Churche , that departeth from the Wicked : but he , that departeth from the Godly . And therefore he addeth further , Laici , cum ijs qui contraria sententiae Dei dogmata defendunt , nolite societatem habere , neque participes illorum Impietatis fieri . Ait enim Dominus , Clemens , Apostolicar . Consti●a . Lib. 6. Cap. 4. Recedite de medio horum hominum , ne cum eis pereatis : Yee Laie menne , haue no Felowship with them , nor be you Partetakers of their Wickednesse , that defende Doctrines contrarie to the doctrine of God . For Our Lorde saithe , Departe from the middes of this people , leste yee perishe togeather with them .

Pope Pius . Aeneas Syluius ad Rector . & vniuersitatè Colonien . Paraliponena Vrspergens Pag. 435. 2. saithe , Resistendum est quibuscunque in faciem , siue Paulus , siue Petrus sit , qui ad Veritatem non ambulat Euangelij : Wee muste withstande any man vnto the face , be it Peter , be it Paule : if he walke not after the Truthe of the Gospel . S. Augustine saithe , Ne Catholicis quidem Episcopis consentiendum est , sicubi fortè falluntur , & contra Canonicas Scripturas aliquid sentiant : Wee maie not agree , no not with the Catholique Bishoppes , if they happen to be deceiued , and thinke any thinge contrarie to the Canonical Scriptures . Augustinus de Vnitate Ecclesi . Ca. 10.

S. Chrysostome saithe , Ex ipsis Veris Ecclesijs frequenter exeunt seductores . Propterea nec ipsis omninò credendum est , nisi ca dicant , vel faciant , quae conuenientia sint Scripturis : Chrysostom . in Matth. Hom. 49. Euen oute of the very True Churches oftentimes there comme deceiuers . Therefore wee maie not in any wise beleeue , no not them , ( notwithstandinge they be the True Churches of God ) onlesse they speake , or doo sutche thinges , as be agreeable to the Scriptures .

Anselmus , Anselmus in . 2. Thessalon . 2. a late Writer , expoundinge these woordes of S. Paule , Tunc Reuelabitur ille iniquus , saithe thus , Romanus Pontifex , qui tenet nunc Ecclesias , teneat illas , donec de medio fiat : id est , donec ab ipsa Romana Ecclesia , quae est Medium , & Cor Ecclesiarum , fiat iniquitas , ob quam ab ea multae discedant Ecclesiae : Let the Bishop of Rome , that nowe holdeth the Churches , holde them stil , vntil it be taken awaie from the middes : that is to saie , vntil Wickednesse be wought of the Churche of Rome , that is the Middest , and harte of Churches : for whiche wickednesse , many Churches shal departe from her .

S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . in Epist ad Theodos . & V●sent . Nullus pudor est , ad meliora transire : It is no shame , to goe to the better .

S. Augustine saithe vnto Faustus the Heretique , Departing from the Churche of Rome . Ille me quondam de gremio tuo Error excusserat . Expertus fugi . quod experiri non debui : That Erroure shooke me once out of thy bosome . Beinge taught by proufe , I haue fledde that thinge , that I should not haue proued . August Contra Faustum . Lib. 15. Cap. 3.

Ambrosius Ansbertus , one of your owne Doctoures , saithe , Per Hieremiam Prophetam dicitur , Exite de medio eius populus meus , & saluet vnusquisque animam suam ab ira faroris Domini . Ambros . Ansber . in Apocalyp . Li. 2. Cap. 2. Nequaquam enim in hac vita de medio Ciuitatis reprobae , id est , de medio malorum quos Babylon illa significat , electorum aliquis valet exire , nisi detestando , quod ab ipsis agitur , & agendo , quod ab ipsis detestatur : The Prophete Hieremie saith , O my people , goe foorth from the middes of them , and saue euery man his owne soule from the rage of oure Lordes furie . For none of the Electe of God can in this life goe foorthe from the middes of that Wicked Cittie , that is to saie , from the middes of the euil , whiche that Babylon signifieth , but by defieinge , that they doo : and by dooinge , that they defie .

And , whereas yee would so faine daste our eies , and couer your deformities with the name of the Churche , Cyprian . De Lapsis , Sermo. 5. S. Cyprian saithe , Non est Pax , sed Bellum : nec Ecclesiae iungitur , qui ab Euangelio separatur : It is no Peace , but Warre : neither is he ioined to the Churche , that is diuided from the Gospel .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . ad populum vntioch . n. Homi. 17. Mihi Ciuitas , non habens pios ciues , Omni villa vilior est : & quacunque Spelunca ignobilior : A Cittie , that hathe not Godly Citizens , is vnto me viler , then any Village : and more lothe some , then any Caue . And this he saithe of the Cittie of Antioche , whiche , by expresse woordes , he more esteemeth , then the Cittie of Rome .

Wee graunte , wée haue departed from you , vpon sutche occasion , and in sutche for te , as Moses sommetime departed from oute of Aegypte : or , as S. Augustine from the Manichees . How be it , in very deede , you naue rather departed from out of vs . Chrysostom in Matth. Hom. 46. Chrysostome saithe , Sic de ista Noua Hierusalem , id est , de Ecclesia , qui Spirituales Christiani fuerunt , relicta Corporali Ecclesia , quam perfidi occupauerant violentia , exierunt ab illis . Magis autem illi exierunt à nobis , sicut Iohannes exponit . Non enim ille de Ecclesia exire videtur , qui corporaliter exit , sed qui Spiritualiter Veritatis Ecclesiasticae Fundamenta reliquit . Nos enim ab illis ex●uimus Corpore : illi à nobis animo . Nos enim ab illis extuimus Loco : Illi à nobis Fide . Nos apud illos reliquimus Fundamenta parietum : Illi apud nos reliquerunt Fundamenta Scripturarum . Nos ab illis egressi sumus secundum aspectum Hominum : Illi autem à nobis secundum Iudicium Dei. Relicta est autem deserta , ex quo de illa Corporali Ecclesia Spiritualis exiuit : Id est , de populo suo , qui videbatur Christianus , & non erat , Populus iste exiuit qui non videbatur , & erat . Magis autem , secundumquod diximus , illi à nobis exierunt quàm nos ab illis : Euen so , touchinge this Newe Hierusalem , whiche is the C●urche , they , that were Spiritu . [ Christian menne , lecuinge the Bodily Churche , whiche the wicked by violence had inuaded , departed out from them : Or , as s S. Iohn expoundeth it , they rather departed out from vs . For he seemeth not in deede to departe from the Churche , that Bodily departeth : but he , that Spiritually leaueth the Fundations of the Ecclesiastical Truthe . We haue departed from them , in Body : they haue departed from vs , in Minde . We from them , by Place : they from vs , by Faithe . Wee haue leafte with them the Fundations of the Walles : They haue leafte with vs the Fundations of the Scriptures . Wee are departed foorthe from them , in the sighte of Man : They are departed from vs , in the Iudgemente of God . But nowe , after that the Spiritual Churche is gonne foorthe , the Bodily Churche is leafte foresaken : That is to saie , from that people , that seemed to be a Christian people , and was not , this people is gonne foorthe , that seemed not out wardely , but was so in dede . Notwithstandinge , as wee haue saide before , they haue rather departed from vs , then we from them .

Ye saie , The Churche in fewe . your Churche of Rome , that nowe is , and the Primitiue Churche , is al One Churche . Euen so the Moone bothe in the ful , and in the wane , is al One Moone : Euen so Hierusalem , as wel vnder Dauid , as vnder Manass es , was al one Cittie . The Holy place , whether the Maiestie of God , or the Abomination of Desolation stande in it , is al one place . The Primitiue Churche , saie you , and the Churche of Rome , that now is , is al one Churche . Therefore wée saie , the Churche of Rome , that now is , in Truthe , and Religion , ought to agrée with the Primitiue Churche .

Whether the Churche maie be brought to a fewe in number , or no , wée had occasion sommewhat to saie before . The Anciente Father Irenaeus saithe , Quemadmodum ibi in plurimis eorum , Irenaeus , Lib. 4. Cap. 46. qui peccauerunt , non bene sensit Deus , Sic & hîc multi sunt vocati : pauci verò electi : As in the Olde Testamente , in many of them , that offended , God was not pleased : Euen so now in the Newe Testamente , many are called , and fewe are Chosen . In Consideration whereof , S. Hierome crieth out in an Agonie within him selfe , Hieron in Esai . Lib. 8. Cap. 24. Fortalitium Fidei . Lib. 5. Tanta erit Sanctorum paucitas : So smal shal be the number of holy menne . One of your owne Doctours saithe , as it is alleged once before , Licet in hoc bello Daemonum cadant Religiosi Principes , & Milites , & Praelati Ecclesiastici , & Subditi , semper tamen manent aliqui , in quibus seruatur Veritas Fidei , & Iustificatio bonae Conscientiae . Et , si non nisi duo viri Fideles remanerent in mundo , tamen in illis saluaretur Ecclesia , quae est Vnitas Fidelium : Notwithstandinge in this warre of Diuelles , bothe the Godly Princes , and Souldiers , and Ecclesiastical Prelates , and Subiectes be ouer throwne , yet euermore there remaine somme , in whome the Truthe of Faithe , and the Righteousnesse of good Conscience is preserued . And , notwithstandinge there were but tv voo Faithful menne remaininge in the worlde , yet euen in them , the Churche of God , whiche is the Vnitie of the Faithful , should be saued .

But , for that wée saie , wee were brought vp emonge you in Darkenesse , and Ignorance , Yée enter out of season into a needelesse discourse of comparison of Learninge , In the Liberal Sciences , ye saie , we are not comparable to the Learned menne of your side . It was not our meaninge , M. Hardinge , to cal the Bright beames of your Liberal Learninge into question . It appeareth , yee woulde faine haue it blased , and magnified to the vttermoste , and no waie to be disgraced . Wee meante onely the knowledge of God , and the open Profession of his Holy Woorde : In comparison of whiche knowledge , al other knowledge , what so euer , is meere darknesse .

How be it , touchinge any kinde of the Liberal , and Learned Sciences , there was no great cause , why ye shoulde , either so highly rowse your selfe in your owne opinion , or so greately disdeigne others . De Summa Trinita . Linwoode . Ye maie remember , that your Prouincial Constitutions beginne with these woordes , Ignorantia Sacerdotum .

It were no greate Maisterie , to charge the Chiefe Doctoures of your side with somme want of Learning . Ludouicus Viues saith , Vt quidque Ius superioribus saeculis minùs tittum fuit studentium manibus , Ludoui Viues de Causis Corrupt . Artium , Lib. 5. ita purius ad nos peruenit : For the space of certaine hundred yeeres paste , the lesse any Booke came into ( your Learned ) studentes handes , the purer , and better it came to vs . Meaninge thereby , that euery thinge was the woorse for your Learned handelinge . Of Thomas , Scotus , Hugo , and others , of whom yée seeme to make so greate accoumpte , your owne frende Catharinus saithe , Scholastici multa ineruditè Comminiscuntur : Catharinus aduerius Petrum à Sold. These Schole Doctoures imagine many m●ters vnlearnedly . Erasmus saithe , Portenta , quae nunc passim legimus in Commentarijs Recention Interpretum , tam impudentia , & insulsa sunt , vt videantur suibus ea scripsisse , Erasm in Scholijs in Hieronym ad Mar●ellam . non Hominibus : The monstrous folies , that wee commonly reade in the Commentaries of the late Interpreters , ( whereby he meaneth the very croppe , and the woorthieste of al your Scholastical Learned Doctoures ) are so far without shame , and so peeuishe , as if they had benne written for Swine , and not for menne . One of your Doctoures saithe , Comparison of Learning . Apostolus , dicitur ab Apos , quod est Argumentum , vel praeeminentia , & Stolon , quod est Missio : quasi praeeminenter Missus . An other saithe , Apocrisarij , dicuntur Nuntij Domini Papae . Erasmus ad Archiepisc . Toleta . Extra de Elect. & Electi Potest . Signifi . in Gloss . Manipul . Curat . Pag. 101. Nam crisis dicitur Secretum : & Apos , dicitur Nuntius . An other saithe , Cathedra , est nomen Graecum , & componitur à Cathos , quod est Fides , & edra , quod est Sponda . An other saithe , Eleemosyna , dicitur ab Eleis , quod est , Misereri , & Mois , quod est Aqua . Peter Crab in his late Scholies vpon the Councelles , saith thus , Mulieres 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , Cohabitantes Sacculos : Likewise againe he saithe , Phrygium factum est ex Pénnis Pauonum . Of your Liberal Learned Cleregie one saithe thus : Nec verba Canonis intelligunt , nec , Inter Decreta Felicis pp. Conc. Tomo . 1. Pag. 168 In Donatione Constantini . Herma . Riddus . Hierony . In Reg. Monacho . Ne ad Risum Provocentur Angelici Spiritus . quae sint verba Consecrationis sciunt . They vnderstand not the woordes of theire Canon : neither knowe they , whiche be the Woordes of Consecration . And therefore he , that forged the Rule of Monkes , vnder the name of S. Hierome , chargeth them in any wise to pronounce euery woorde distinctely , and wa●ily , leste by theire foolishe vtterance they shoulde make the Angelles to falle a laughinge .

These fewe maie serue you for a taste . Hereby , M. Hardinge , it maie appeare , your Cleregie hath no greate cause , to make sutche triumphe of theire Learninge . Howe be it , wée vpraide you not herewith : nor was this the cause of oure departure . Yee holde both Faithe , and Learning , and Churche , and Religion , by enheritance . Christe hath once praied for Peter : Therefore your Faithe , and Learning can neuer faile . Yet notwithstandinge , your late Bookes , freight with so many vnciuile , and vaine speaches ( for of your often Vntruthes I wil saie nothing ) sauoure more of Choler , Hierony in Prouerb . Li. 2. Ca. 19. then of Learninge . S. Hierome saithe , Doctrina viri per patientiam noscitur . Quia tantò quisque minùs oftenditur doctus , quantòconuincitur minùs patiens : A mannes Learninge is knowen by his patience . For the lesse patiente a manne sheweth him selfe , the lesse he sheweth to be his Learninge .

Woulde God , yee woulde humble your knowledge , and make it obediente to the knowledge of God . Actor . 8. Otherwise , that Peter saide vnto Simon Magus , of his moonie , maie likewise be saide vnto you , of your knowledge : Thy knowledge be with thee to thy destruction . 1. Cor in 2. 3. Esdr. 4. 1. Cor. 13. Matth. 13. Our Learninge is the Crosse of Christe : of other Learninge wée make no vauntes . God is called the God of Truthe , and not of Learninge . S. Paule saithe , Al kinde of Learninge shal be abolished . God make vs al Learned to the Kingedome of Heauen .

The Apologie , Cap. 13. Diuision . 1.

But , wherefore , I praie you , haue they themselues , the Citizens , and dwellers of Rome , remoued , and comme downe from those Seuen Hilles , whereupon Rome sommetime stood , to dwel rather in the Plaine , called the field of Mars ? They wil saie peraduenture , bicause the conductes of Mater , wherewithout menne cannot commodiously liue , haue now failed , and are dried vp in those Hilles . Wel then , lette them geeue vs like leaue in seekinge the Water of Eternal Life , that they geeue them selues in seekinge the Water of the wel . For that Water verily failed amongest them . The Elders of the lewes , saith Ieremie , Hiere. 14. sente theire litle ones to the Wateringes : and thei , findinge no Water , beinge in miserable case , and vtterly loste for thirste , brought home againe theire vessels emptie . The nedy , and poore folke , Esai . 41. saithe Esaie , sought aboute for Water : but no where founde they any : theire tongue was euen withered with thirste . Euen so these menne haue broken in peeces al the pipes , and conduites : they haue stopped vp al the springes , and choked vp the Fountaine of Liuinge Water with dyrte , and myre . And , as Caligula , many yeeres past , locked vp faste al the storehouses of corne in Rome , & thereby brought a general dearthe and famine amongest the people , euen so these menne , by damminge vp al the Fountaines of Goddes Woorde , haue brought the people into a pitiful thirst . They haue brought into the world , Amos. 8. as saithe the Prophete Amos , a Hungre , and a Thirste : nor the Hunger of Breade , nor the Thirste of Water , but of hearinge the Woorde of God . With greate distresse went they scatteringe about , seekinge somme sparke of heauenly light , to refreashe theire consciences withal : but that light was already thoroughly quenched out , so that they coulde finde none . This was a rueful state : This was a lamentable forme of Goddes Church . It was a miserie , to liue therein , without the Gospel , without Light , and without al Comforte .

M. Hardinge .

Wel , and witteely reasoned foresoothe . No no Sirs , if it were that holesome Water of Eternal life whiche ye thirste after , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For wee are not departed from the Catholique Churche . ye woulde neuer haue departed from the high hil , the Catholike Church , and come downe into the valleis , where ye finde the durty pudles of fleashely pleasures , where the deuil Behemoth , Iob. 40. as Iob saithe , dormit in Iocis humentibus , sleapeth in woiste places . Al were not sterued for hunger and thirst of that water of Gods Worde . Therefore ye speake bothe slaunderously and ignorantly for diuines , where ye saie , that we had broken in peeces al the pipes and conduites , that we had stopped vp al the springes , and choked , and dawned vp al the Founteines of Liuinge Water with durte and myre .

Yet vnwares or ignorantly , they cal that faithles and pagane state , a lamentable forme of Gods Churche , whereas they shoulde haue accoumpted it no Churche at al. For where is no worde of God , no light , no Gospel at al , how can there be any Church ? Without these , any multitude is no more a Church , then without Christe , a man is a Christian , then a deade man is a man . And thus with malicious slaunderinge , not with lerned reasons : with theire owne affirmations , not with apt allegations , haue they gone about to proue , that these many hundred yeres the Churche hath erred ▪ But thankes be to God , al this winde shaketh no corne . When al these hasty blastes be blowne ▪ ouer , the Churche of God shal stand stil vnmoued , vpon the rocke , Christ builded it on , and appere glorious in her sted fastnes and truth , maugre the gaine saieinge of al Heretikes , and shal appere to them terrible , as a stronge armie set in battaile raye . Cantic. 6.

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , ye beginne out of season to plaie with your Allegories , and Mystical Fantasies . Your Catholique Churche of Rome is the Mounte : Worldly pleasure is the Vale. By whiche Comparison , wée muste beleue , that the Pope , and his Cardinalles , sittinge on highe vpon the Mounte , passe theire time there onely in Fastinge , and praier , and in al manner pouertie , and penurie , and straitou●sse of Life , and haue vtterly abandoned al worldly pleasures . Notwithstanding somme haue said , Paralipomen . Vrspergen . in Clement . 5. In Cardinalibus Superbia , Auaritia , Luxuria validissimè dominantur : In the Cardinalles of Rome Pride , Auarice , and Lecherie are in theire greatest Courage . Howe be it , touchinge as wel this , as other your like folies , conceminge the Churche , I wil not saie , Ye keepe your woonte : but I muste néedes saie , Yée doo but trifle .

The Apologie , Cap. 13. Diuision . 1.

Wherefore , Departing from the Churche of Rome . though our Departinge were a trouble to them , yet ought they to consider withal , howe iuste cause we had of our Departure .

M. Hardinge .

In deede our charitie is sutche , as we confesse it to be a griefe vnto-vs , to see you plaie the part of rebellious children , to vse presumption for submission , contempt for obedience , spite for loue . Yet sith that ye are desperate and incorrigible , as by your departing from vs the Church felt some anguish and trouble , so now that ye are gone , it is releued , as the body is eased , when after a purgation it hath auoided euil humours . Nowe saie you best .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée are not gonne from the Churche of God , M. Hardinge : Wée are gonne onely from you , that haue so vnreuerently abused the Churche . But ye feele good ease , yée saie , and are wel reliued by our departure , as , to vse your homely comparisons , a sick body is reliued by a purgation . God of his mercie graunt , that yée maie likewise be purged of al the reste . So shal yée féele more ease , and be better reliued .

S. Hierome saithe , Hierony . ad Fabiolam . De. 42. Mansionibus , Mansione . 1. Hebraei dicunt , quòd ea nocte , qua egressus est Israel ex Aegypto , omnia in Aegypto Templa destructa sunt : siue terrae motu , fiue ictu fulminum . Spiritualiter autem dicimus , quòd egredientibus nobis ex Aegypto , errorum Idola corruant , & omnis Peruersarum Doctrinarum cultura quatiatur : The Rabines , or Hebrewe Doctoures saie , that the same night , that Israel departed out of Egypte , al the Idolatrous Temples in Egypte were destroied : either by Earthquake , or by Lighteninge . But here of wee learne , in a Spiritual sense , that when wee departe out of Egypte ( that is to saie , from the companie of Idolaters ) the Idolles of erroure falle to the grounde , and al the honoure of false Doctrine is shaken downe . Sutche reliefe , M. Hardinge , wée trust , yée shal finde by our departure .

Beda , expoundinge these woordes of the Apocalyps , Comme foorthe from her , Beda in Apocal. Lib. 3. Cap. 18. my people , and be not partetakers of her sinnes , saithe thus : Inducit discessionem , quae est ruina Babylonis : cùm enim Loth discesserit à Sodomis , Sodomae funditùs tollentur : S. Iohn speaketh of the departure , whiche is the ruine , and fal of Balylon . For , when Loth shal departe out of Sodome , then shal Sodome vtterly be ouerthrowen .

Againe he saithe , Beda in Apocal. Lib. 3. Cap. 19. Post haec audiui vocem , Alleluia : Laus , & Gloria , & Virtus Deo nostro . Haec nunc ex parte dicit Ecclesia . Tunc autem perfectè dicet , cùm discessio facta fuerit : After this I hearde a voice , Alleluia : Praise , and Glorie , and Power be to our God . This songe the Churche in parte singeth already . But then shal shee in deede and perfitely singe it , when departure shal be made ( from Antichriste , or Babylon ) .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 1.

For if they saie , It is in no wise lawful for one , to leaue the felowship , wherein he hathe benne brought vp , they maie aswel in our names , & vpon our heades , likewise condemne the Prophetes , the Apostles , and Christe him selfe . For why complaine they not also of this , that Loth went quite his waie out of Sodome : Abraham out of Chaldee , Example of Christe the Israelites out of Egypte , Christe from the Iewes , and Paule from the Phariseis ? For excepte it be possible , there maie be a lawful cause of Departinge , wee see no reasone , why Loth , Abraham , the Israelites , Christe , and Paule maie not be accused of Sectes , and Seditions , aswel as others .

M. Hardinge .

Yet bringe ye nothing to the purpose . Your proufes be so weake , and hange so euil togeather , that we maie wel tel you ( whiche Irenaeus obiected to Heretikes ) that ye make a rope of sande . We saie not , it is in no wise lawful for one to leaue the felowship , wherein he hath benne brought vp . But contrary wise , Apocal. 18. ‡ ‡ Thus mutche confessed is sufficiente . if the felowship be naught and wicked , euery one is bound to eschewe it ▪ Depart from Babylon my people , and be not ye partakers of her sinnes , saith the heauenly voice to S. Iohn . * * A suddaine Conclusion . Therefore the examples ye bringe , helpe nothinge your cause .

Loth went out of Sodome , Abraham of Chaldea , the Israèlites of Egypte , Paule from the Phariseis , by Gods special warninge . Where ye saie , Christe went from the Iewes , onlesse ye referre it to his steppinge aside from them for a while : ye shoulde rather haue saide , the Iewes went from Christe . But whereto perteineth this ? Though ye were so malicious , as to compare the Catholike Churche to Sodome , to Chaldea , to Egypte , to the Iewes and Phariseis : yet , I wene , ye are not so proude , as ‡ ‡ A vaine folie . For a good man maie folowe Christe without presumptuous Comparison . to compare your selues to Loth , to Abraham , to Gods peculiar people , to Paule , to Christe himselfe . These departinges we allowe , and God required them : yours we blame , and God detesteth .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée compare not our selues , M. Hardinge , neither with Loth , nor with Abraham , nor with Paule : leaste of al with Christe him selfe . But wée humbly submitte our selues both in life , and in Doctrine , to be guided by theire Examples . And thus , I truste , we maie lawfully doo , without iuste note of presumption . S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 79. Data est tibi potestas diuinitùs imitandi Christum , vt possis illi similis fieri . Noli expauescere hoc audiens . Timendum enim tibi potiùs est , si similis illi fieri negligas : Thou haste power geeuen the from God to folowe Christe , that thou maiste be like vnto him . Be thou not afraide to heare this thinge . Thou haste more cause to feare , if thou refuse to be like vnto him . Likewise saithe the Anciente Father Origen , Si quem imitati volumus , propositus est nobis Christus ad imitandum : Origen . in Ezechiel . Homil. 7. If wee desire to folowe any man , Christe is set before vs , that wee shoulde folowe him .

But if it be so Prowde a parte , in Religion , and Life to folowe Christe , what is he then , that claimeth to him selfe Christes Authoritie , and calleth him selfe euen by the name of Christe ? You know , of whom it is written , Extra De Translatio Episcopi , Quanto . Hostien . Bernard . De Consideratio . Lib. 2. Papa potest , quicquid Christus ipse potest . The Pope can doo , what so euer Christe him selfe can doo . Yee knowe , who is wel contented , to heare him selfe thus saluted : Touchinge Primacie , thou art Abel : touchinge Gouernemente , thou art Noen : touchinge Patriarkship , thou art Abraham : touchinge Order , thou art Melchisedech : touchinge Dignitie , thou art Aaron : touchinge Authoritie , thou art Moses : touchinge Iudgemente , thou art Samuel : touchinge Power , thou art Peter : touchinge Anointinge , thou art Christe . These woordes , I trowe , M. Harding , maie sommewhat séeme to sauoure of Pride .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 2.

And , if these menne wil needes condemne vs for Heretiques , bicause we doo not al thinges at theire Commaundemente , whom ( in Goddes Name ) or what kinde of menne ought they themselues to be taken for , whiche despise the Commaundemente of Christe , and of the Apostles ?

M. Hardinge .

Our frailtie concerninge life , we accuse , and lamente , and commende our selues to Gods infinite mercie . Touchinge belefe and necessarie doctrine of faithe , raile ye at vs neuer so mutche , we neither despise the ‡ ‡ Vntruthes notorious , & manifeste vnto the worlde . Commaundementes of Christe , nor the ‡ traditions of the Apostles .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 3.

If we be Schismatiques , bicause we haue leaft them , by what name then shal thei he called themselues , whiche haue foresaken the Greekes , from whom they firste receiued theire Faithe , foresaken the Primitiue Churche , foresaken Christe himselfe , and the Apostles , euen as if Children shoulde foresake theire parentes ?

M. Hardinge .

Who so euer departe from the Catholike Churche , they be Schismatikes : ye haue departed from the Catholike Churche , of ‡ ‡ Here M. Harfreely yeldeth vs the first six hundred , and three score yeeres , that is to saie , the whole time of the Apostles , & Holy Fathers of the Churche . these nine hundred yeeres : ergo ye be schismatikes . The firste proposition ye wil not denie : The seconde your selues confesse : the conclusion then muste nedes be true . If we saie the same , blame vs not . Neither saie we that onely , but also that ye are Heretikes . Whereby the measure of your iniquitie is increaced . The same crime ye woulde impure vnto vs , if ye wisie howe . If ye haue no more to laie to our charge , but that we haue foresaken the Grekes , ye shal not be offended with the world , if it geue vs the title , name , and estimation of Catholikes , as heretofore . For ( remember your selues ) we haue not forsaken : he Grekes , but the Greekes in some pointes haue forsaken vs . By the name of vs , alwaies I vnderstande the Catholike Churche , euen the Holy Romaine Churche , whose faithe we professe , and with whom we communicate .

* * Reade the Answeare . And howe standeth it with your lerninge , that we receiued the faithe first from the Grekes ? For where ye saie , we haue forsaken the Primitiue Churche , yea Christe himselfe , and the Apos●les , ye haue tolde vs this so often , that now we take them to be but wordes of course , and a common blaste of your railing sprite . The Romaine Churche receiued the faithe from Ierusalem ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , As shal soone appeare . and not from Grece , as the reste of the world did , Esai . 2. according to the Prophecie , De Sion exibit lex , &c. As for the land of Britaine our natiue country , if the faithe were firste brought hither by Ioseph of Arimathaea , and his felowes , as by old tradition we are told : * * Certainely we receiued not our Faithe firste from the Churche of Rome . then was the Church here first planted by faithful Iewes , and not by Grekes . This beinge true , we maruel what ye meane , to charge vs with forsaking the Grekes , specially where ye saie , we firste receiued the faith from them ▪ Whiche is no truer , then that we receiued our Englishe language from them .

The B. of Sarisburie .

It were no shame for you , M. Hardinge , to confesse , that the Churche of Rome firste receiued her Faithe from the Churches of Graecia . Augu. Epist. 178. Augu. Epist. 170. Chrysosto ad Popul . Antiochen . Homil. 14. Neither are they so vtterly voide of Learninge , that haue saide the same . Rather I marueile , what Learninge can leade you , to sate the contrarie . S. Augustine saithe , Terra Graecorum , vnde vbique destinata est Fides : The Land of Graecia , from whence the Faithe into al places was sente abroade . Againe he saithe , Radix Orientalium Ecclesiarum , vnde Euangelium in Aphricam venit : Tripar . Histor. Lib. 4 Cap. 16. Sozom. Li 3. ca. 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Roote of the Easte Churches , from whence the Gospel came into Aphrica . S. Chrysostome saithe vnto the people of Antioche , Christianorum nomen ▪ velut ex quodam Fonte , hinc incipiens , omnem mundum inundauit : The name of Christians beginninge firste from this Cittie of Antioche , as from a Springe , hath flowed ouer the whole worlde . The Bishoppes of the Easte wrote thus vnto Iulius the Bishop of Rome : Ad Ecclesiam Romanam ab Oriente Praedicatores Dogmatis aduenerunt : The Preachers of Christian Doctrine came from that Easte to the Churche of Rome . The Faith brought to Rome oute of Graecia . Likewise S. Basile saith , The Gospel of the Kingedome , springing vp first in the Church of Graecia , was from thence published abroade into al the world . Eusebius saithe , Lucis virtus , & Sacrae Religionis Lex , beneficio Dei , quasi è sinu Orientis profecta , cunctum simul Orbem Sacro Iubare illustrauit : The power of the Light , and the Lawe of Holy Religion , by Goddes benefite , springinge out , as it were , from the bosome of the Easte , Basil . In Epist ad Epis. per Italiam & Galliam . Eusebi . De vita . Constan . Orati . 2. Cod. De Sacrosan . Ecclesiis . L. Iubemus . §. Scientes . hath shined ouer the whole worlde togeather with a blessed beame . The Emperoure Iustinian saithe , Constantinopolis , Religionis , & Fidei Mater perpetua : Constantinople is the Euerlastinge Mother of Faithe , and Religion . And likewise againe , Sacrosancta Constantinopolitanae Ciuitatis Ecclesia , Mater Pietatis nostrae , & Christianorum Orthodoxae Religionis omnium : The moste Holy Churche of the Cittie of Constantinople , the Mother of oure Holinesse , and the Mother of al Christians of the Catholique Faithe .

In like sorte , the Churche of Constantinople , euen vntil this daie , intituleth it selfe : Cod. in Eod. titu . 1. Decernimus . Epist. Eccle. Constantinop . Ad Eccle. Pragen . Concil. Trident. Oratio Episcopi Bitontini . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : The Churche of Constantinople , the Mother , and Maistresse of al that be Catholique . To be shorte , if ye wil not beleue any of these , yet at leaste yee maie beleue your owne Felowes . The Bishop of Bitonto in youre late Chapter at Trident , vttered these woordes , as it maie wel appeare , with lusty courage : Eia igitur Graecia Mater Nostra , cui id torum debet , quod habet Latina Ecclesia : O therefore oure Mother Graecia : vnto whom the Latine Churche , or the Churche of Rome , is beholden for al , that euer she hath .

These thinges , M. Hardinge , beinge true , wee marueile , what shoulde moue you to denie , that yee first receiued the Faithe from the Churche of Graecia . Touchinge the mater it selfe , In opere Triparti . li. 2. ca. 1. In. 2. To. Concil. it is written thus in youre owne Councelles , Si Graeci , per quandam Scissuram , diuiduntur à Latinis , ita Latini à Graecis . Et ideo videtur , quòd , Si Graeci debent dici Schismatici propter huiusmodi Diuisionem , eadem ratione , & Latini : praetereà Graeci magis seruant Antiquas Consuetudines Apostolorum , & Discipulorum Christi , in Barbis , &c. If the Grekes , by a certaine Diuision , be sundred from the Latines , euen so be the Latines sundred from the Greekes . And therefore it seemeth , if the Greekes in respecte of this Diuision ought to be called Schismatiques , that then the Latines also ought so to be called in like case . Furthermore , the Greekes doo more duely keepe the Olde Customes of the Apostles , and of Christles Disciples , touchinge Beardes , &c. then doo the Latines .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 1.

For though those Greekes , who this daie professe Religion , and the name of Christe , haue many thinges corrupted amongest them , yet holde thei stil a great number of those thinges , whiche they receiued from the Apostles . They haue neither Priuate Masses , nor mangled Sacramentes , nor Purgatories , nor Pardones . And as for the titles of Highe Bishoppes , and those glorious names , they esteeme them so , as whosoeuer he were , that woulde take vpon him the same , and woulde be called , either Vniuersal Bishop , or the Head of the Vniuersal Churche , they make no doubte , to cal sutche a one , both a passinge proude man , and a man , that woorketh despite againste al the other Bishoppes his Brethren , and a plaine Heretique .

M. Hardinge .

As ye haue oftentimes belied vs , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . As it shal plainely appeare . so nowe ye belie the poore Greekes . So little are ye able to saie somewhat , and therein to saie truthe . For they haue Masse commonly without companie to communicate with the Prieste , whiche ye cal Priuate Masse : so * * Vntruthe , As large , as manifeste . is it al Greece ouer , so is it in Asia , in Syria , in Assyria , in Armenia , and where so euer the Religion of Christe is professed : As amonge the Greekes in Venis , I my selfe , and diuerse of oure countrie menne haue seene it commonly practized . Like wise praie they al for the dead , and thinke them to be relieued by the praiers , oblations , almose , and deedes of charitie , doone for them by the liuinge . Whiche minde , and opinion implieth that faith , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , For the Grecians neuer receiued these fantasies of Purgatorie . whiche the Churche holdeth of purgatorie .

But though ( saie ye ) those Greekes haue many thinges corrupted , yet holde they stil a greate number of those thinges , whiche they receiued of the Apostles . And wilt thou knowe , Reader , what they be ? Forsoothe they haue neither Priuate Masses , nor mangled Sacramentes , nor Purgatories , nor Pardons . Is not the witte of this Defender to bee commended , that maketh a man to holde that , whiche he hath not ? O , so merily this man plaieth with his fansie . Those Greekes holde stil , saithe he . What holde they ? Mary they haue not this and that . This is a newe kinde of holdinge , for a man to holde , that he hath not . If they holde stil , then haue they stil . But they haue not , saieth he : then howe holde they ? A man maie by the rules of this newe Logique , thus reason : The Turkes , Saracenes , Iewes , Infidels , Idolaters , yea , the shepe of Cottesholde also , if ye wil , haue neither priuate Masses , nor Communion vnder one kinde , nor Purgatories , nor Pardons : Ergo , they holde a number of thinges , whiche they receiued from the Apostles . The antecedent is true . Who so euer denieth the consequente , must compte this Defenders Logique very simple . What if one shoulde make this argumente , This Defender hath neither good Logique , nor very fine Rhetorike , nor profounde Philosophie , nor the right knowledge of Diuinitie : Ergo , he holdeth many Heresies ? Though bothe the Antecedent , and Consequent be true , yet is the argument naught . For by like reason one might conclude , an honest vnlearned catholique man to be an Heretique , whiche were false and iniurious . Sutche is the Logique , sutche are the topikes of this newe negatiue , and ablatiue diuinitie : for so maie we worthely cal it . Negatiue , in respect of their blasphemous tongues , denieing sundrie weightie pointes of our Faithe : Ablatiue , in respecte of their wicked handes , casting away , throwinge downe , and taking away manie good thinges , perteining to the maintenance of Christen Religion , and Goddes honour . Put them from their negatiues , and from their ablatiues , then in what case shal they stande ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

I am ashamed , the worlde should be combred with so childishe folies . This Defenders witte , ye saie , is to bee commended . He maketh a man to holde , that be neuer hadde . And what holde they ? saie you . Mary , they haue not this , and that . This is a newe kinde of holdinge , for a man to holde , that he hath not . If they holde stil , then haue they stil . But they haue not : then howe holde they ? Nowe surely , M. Hardinge , I trowe , wee shal Haue , and Holde a mery man . So prety sporte yee canne make youre selfe with Hauinge , and Holdinge . It were great pitie , yee shoulde euer be otherwise occupied . Annibal of Carthage , when he hadde hearde Phormio the Oratoure talke pleasantly a longe whyle togeather , Cicero , De Oratore . 2. beinge afterwarde demaunded , what he thought of his Eloquence , made aunsweare in his homely sorte , Multos se vidisse delitos senes : sed , qui magis , quàm Phormio , deliraret , vidisse neminem .

But , somme what to yelde vnto your pleasance , why maie not a man Holde , that be neuer Hadde , as wel as Lose , that he neuer Hadde ? In the Learned Gloses vpon youre Decrees , Dist. 17. Concil. in Gloss . yee maie finde this note emongest others , Nota , quòd aliquis dicitur perdere , quod nunquam habuit : Marke wel this : A man maie be said to Lose , that he neuer Hadde . And yet , ye saie commonly in the Schooles , Priuatio semper praesupponit habitum , The Losing of a thing alwaies presupposeth the Hauing of the same . Or , to answeare you in plainer wyse , why maie not a man as wel Holde nothinge , as you maie talke so mutche , and yet saie nothing ? Galene saide sommetime to one , Galenus . that spake then in sutche substantial manner , as you speake nowe , Accipe nihil : & tene fideliter : Take nothinge : and holde it faste .

But to leaue youre folies , The Greke Churche . and seely toies , M. Hardinge , with youre Turkes , and Saracenes , and Sheepe of Cotesholde , wee saie not , The Greekes Holde stil , that they neuer Hadde : But wee saie , They Holde stil , that they euer Hadde . Youre Priuate Masses , and youre Dimi Communions they Holde not : for they Hadde them neuer . The Holy , and Whole Communion in Bothe kindes , they Holde stil : and sithence the Apostles time they haue hadde them euer .

They praie also for the Dead : And therein , yee saie , is implied youre Faithe of Purgatorie . I wil not here touche the simplicitie of youre Rhetorique , or Logique , M. Hardinge : But onely wishe you , to haue better regarde to youre Diuinitie . For ought , that I can see , Praier for the Deade , and youre Fantasie of Purgatorie , were neuer so straitely coupled togeather , but that they might wel , and easily goe a sunder . The Grecians , as they Praie for the Deade , so doo they Praie for the Apostles , for the Patriarkes , for the Prophetes , and for the Blessed Virgine oure Ladie : Liturgia Basilij , Liturgia Chrysostomi . as you maie soone perceiue by S. Basiles , and by S. Chrysostomes Liturgie . Yet , I thinke , yee woulde not haue youre Reader beleue , as an Article of youre Faithe , that the Apostles of Christe , the Patriarkes , the Prophetes , and the Blessed Virgin Christes Mother are stil in Purgatorie . What so euer other opinion the Grecians haue of the Deade , certaine it is , they coulde neuer yet be brought to beleue youre Purgatorie .

Roffensis , Polydor. De Inuentoribus , li. 8. cap. 1. one of your greatest Doctoures , as I haue saide before , saith thus , Purgatorium Graecis vsque ad hunc diem non est creditum : The Grecians vntil this daie beleue not Purgatorie . Thus , M. Hardinge , I knowe not , whether by youre Logique , or by youre Diuinitie , ( for bothe are marueilous ) yee woulde faine force youre poore Greekes , to Holde that thinge , that they neuer Hadde .

An other proper pastime yee make youre selfe with youre Negatiues , and Ablatiues . And wherefore , it were harde to telle , sauinge that , I see , ye were wel disposed , and wel it became you , to be mery . The Ancient Learned Fathers , hauinge to deale with impudent Heretiques , that in defence of their Erroures , auouched the Iudgemente of al the Olde Bishoppes , and Doctoures , that hadde benne before them , and the general consente of the Primitiue , and whole Vniuersal Churche , and that with as good regarde of Truthe , and as Faithefully , as you doo nowe , the better to discouer the shamelesse boldenesse , and nakednesse of theire Doctrine , were oftentimes likewise forced to vse the Negatiue , and so to driue the same Heretiques , as wee doo you , to proue theire Affirmatiues : whiche thinge to doe , it was neuer possible . The Anciente Father Irenaeus thus staied him selfe , as wee doo , Irenaeus . li. 1. ca. ● . by the Negatiue : Hoc neque Prophetae Praedicauerunt , neque Dominus docuit , neque Apostoli tradiderunt : This thinge neither did the Prophetes publishe . nor oure Lorde teache , Chrysost. De Incomprehensi . Dei natura , Hom. 3. Leo. Epist. 93. cap. 12. nor the Apostles deliuer . By a like Negatiue Chrysostome saithe , Hanc Arborem non Paulus plantauit , non Apollo rigauit , non Deus auxit : This Tree ( of Erroure ) neither Paule planted , nor Apollo watered , nor God encreased . In like sorte Leo saithe , Quid opus est in cor admittere , quod Lex non docuit , quod Prophetia non cecinit , quod Euangelij Veritas non praedicauit , quod Apostolica Doctrina non tradidit ? What needeth it , to beleue that thing , that neither the Lawe hathe taught , nor the Prophetes haue spoken , nor the Gospel hathe preached , nor the Apostles haue deliuered ? And againe , Quomodo noua inducuntur , quae nunquam nostri sensere Maiores ? Leo , Epist. 97. cap. 3. Howe are these newe diuises brought in , that oure Fathers neuer knewe ?

S. Augustine , August . Epist. 165 hauinge reckened vp a greate number of the Bishoppes of Rome , by a general Negatiue saithe thus : In hoc ordine Successionis nullus Donatista Episcopus inuenitur : In al this order of Succession of Bishoppes , there is not one Bishop founde , Priuate Masse in the Greke Churche . that was a Donatiste . S. Gregorie , beinge him selfe a Bishop of Rome , and writinge againste the Title of Vniuersal Bishop , saith thus , Nemo Decessorum meorum hoc tam prophano vocabulo vti consensit : Nullus Romanorum Pontificum hoc singularitatis nomen assumsit : Gregorius , li. 4. Epist. 32. None of al my Predecessours euer consented to vse this vngodly Title : No Bishop of Rome euer tooke vpon him this name of Singularitie .

These , and other like Negatiues , the Holy Fathers in Olde times mighte safely vse without controlmente : for that there was no Doctoure of Louaine as yet vp starte , to carpe , and quarrel at their Diuinitie . Leaue this childishe , and vnsauerie sportinge , and triflinge with youre Negatiues , M. Hardinge . It were a greate deale more seemely , for a man of Learninge , and Grauitie , and more to youre pourpose , to proue youre Affirmatiues .

They haue Priuate Masse , yee saie , in al Graecia , Asia , Syria , Assyria , Armenia , and , where so euer the Religion of Christe is professed . Al this wee muste needes beleue vpon youre woorde : for other proufe yee offer to make none . Notwithstandinge , if they haue sutche Priuate Masses in al those Countries , tel vs , I beseeche you , who were the Authours , and Makers of these Masses ? Yee wil saie , S. Iames , S. Chrysostome , or S. Basile . For of these names , and Masses , yee haue tolde vs many a tale . Yet , if yee consider the mater wel , yee shal finde , that these selfe same Masses were our Communions , and nothinge like to youre Masses : And , that the Holy Sacramentes at the same , contrarie to youre newe diuises , were deliuered generally in Bothe kindes to al the people .

S. Liturgia Iacobi . Iames in his Masse saithe thus , Diaconi tollunt Discos , & Calices , ad impertiendum populo : The Deacons take vp the Disshes , and the Cuppes , to minister the Sacramente vnto the people .

S. Chrysostome in his Masse saithe thus , Liturgia Chrysostomi . Pòst Mysteria feruntur ad locum , vbi populus debet communicare : Afterwarde the Holy Mysteries , or Sacramentes be brought vnto the place , where the people muste receiue togeather .

S. Basile in his Masse saithe thus , Litur . Basilij . Nos omnes de vno Pane , & de vno Calice participantes , &c. Cantores cantant Communionem : & sic Communicant Omnes : Al wee receiuinge of One Breade , and one Cuppe , &c. The Quiere singeth the Communion : and so they Communicate Al togeather . Therefore , M. Hardinge , yee muste needes confesse , either that the Grecians this daie vse none of these Masses : or , that theire Masses are not youre Masses , but oure Communions : Whiche bothe are contrarie to youre selfe .

In the Armenians Liturgie , Georgius Cassander in Liturgijs . it is written thus , Qui non sunt digni Communicare hanc Oblationem Dei , exeant foras ante fores Ecclesiae , & ibi Orent : They , that are not woorthy to receiue this Oblation of God , let them goe foorthe before the Churche doore : and there let them praie .

Of the Grecians order in this behalfe , youre greate , and special Doctoure , Cardinal Bessarion , Bessarion , De Sacrament . Eucharistiae . beinge him selfe a Greeke borne , saithe thus , Hoc ipse ordo rerum poscebat : primùm , Consecrare : deinde , Frangere : posteà , distribuere : Quod nos in praesenti facimus : This the very order of the thinges required : firste , that wee shoulde Consecrate , Circa annum Domini , 1450. or Blesse the Breade : Nexte , that wee shoulde Breake it : Laste of al , that wee shoulde Diuide it , ( or deliuer it to the people ) . Whiche thinge we ( Grecians ) doo at this present daie . Thus you see , M. Hardinge , that the Grecians this daie Consecrate , Breake , and Diuide the Sacramente vnto the people , as wee doo . Therefore it is vntrue , that you saie , They haue this daie youre Priuate Masse .

Touching the Grecians , that liue nowe in Venice , what order thei vse there , I cannot telle . Priuate Masse in the Greke Churche . Notwithstandinge , as I haue hearde saie , Priuate Masse they haue not . But if they haue , liuinge vnder the Popes Iurisdiction , it is no marueile . Certaine it is , that Venice is no parte of Grecia .

Matthias Illyricus , Matthi . Illyricus , in Testibus Veritatis . pag. 5. beinge him selfe borne in Dalmatia , not farre from the Confines , or Borders of Grecia , and therefore , as it maie be thought , the better acquainted with theire Orders , saith thus : Ecclesia Graeca , eique coniunctae , Asiatica , Macedonica , Mysica , Valachica , Rutenica , Moschouitica , & Aphricana , id est , totus Mundus , vel certè eius maxima pars , nunquam Primatum Papae communi consensu concesserunt : nunquam Purgatorium probauerunt : nunquam Priuatas Missas : nunquam Communionem sub vna specie : The Churche of Grecia , and the Churches of Asia , Macedonia , Mysia , Valachia , Russia , Moschouia , and Aphrica , ioined thereunto , that is to saie , in a manner the whole Worlde , or at leaste , the greateste parte thereof , neuer graunted the Pope his Supremacie : neuer allowed either Purgatorie , or Priuate Masses , or the Communion vnder one kinde .

In the Proeme or Entrie of the Councel of Ferraria , Concil. Ferrari● . in Prooemio . it is written thus , Proxima Dominica quindecim Graeci Sacerdotes domi Imperatoris , iussu eius . Missam solenniter celebrarunt . Vbi etiam Marchio cum suis Ciuibus adfuit , & Panem Benedictum , per Patriarchae dextram , more Graecorum , accepit , atque libauit : The nexte Sonnedaie , fiftiene Greeke Priestes within the Emperours Palaice , by his Commaundemente , saide a Solemne Masse ( or Communion ) where as the Marquese was present with his Cittizens , and , as the manner of the Grecians is , receiued , and tasted the Breade Consecrate , at the hande of the Patriarke . Here it is to be noted by the waie , that these fiftiene Priestes saide not fiftiene Seueral Masses , but al togeather one onely Masse : Petrus Vrbeuetanus , in Vita Deusdedit Pap. and that the same one Masse was no Priuate Ministration , but a Communion . Whereof Petrus Vrbeuetanus saithe thus , Tum ad instar Graecorum , non cantabatur in vna Ecclesia , nisi forsan vna Missa : Then there was songe in one Churche no more , sauinge perchaunce one onely Masse , as the manner of the Grecians is .

Likewise saithe Durandus , Offerebant magnum Panem , & omnibus sufficientem : Quod adhuc Graeci seruare dicuntur : They offered vp one greate loafe , Durandus in Rationali . li. 4. that might suffice al the Churche : Whiche order , thei saie , the Grecians keepe vntil this daie .

By these fewe , I truste , M. Hardinge , it maie soone appeare , whether of vs haue belied youre poore Grecians .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 2.

Nowe then , since it is manifeste , and out of al peraduenture , that these menne are fallen from the Greekes , of whome thei receiued the Gospel , of whom thei receiued the Faith , the True Religion , & their Churche it selfe , what is the mater , why thei wil not now be called home againe to the same men , as it were , to theire Originalles , and firste Founders ? And why be thei afraide to take a paterne of the Apostles , and Olde Fathers times , as though thei al hadde benne voide of vnderstandinge ? Doo these menne , weene yee , see more , or sette more by the Churche of God , then thei did , who firste deliuered vs these thinges ?

M. Hardinge .

Softe and faire , Sir Defender : you haue not yet proued , that you saie , is manifeste , and out of al peraduenture . Remember you not the olde homely verse of youre sophistrie . Neque negatiuis , rectè concludere si vis ? Speake to the pourpose , or els I woulde you woulde make an ende of youre filly follies . For in deede you trifle , and saie nothinge worth to be answeared . And here litle cause doo you minister vnto me , to vtter substantial stuffe . Whiche I desire the discrete Reader to consider , for mine excuse , that with a trifler I doo also but trifle .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , by youre owne confession , yee doo but trifle with youre Filly follies : for that , I trowe , youre substantial , and better stuffe was not yet ready .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 3.

In deede , we haue renounced that churche , wherein wee could neither haue the Woorde of God sincerely taught , nor the Sacramentes rightly administred , nor the name of God duely called vpon : Whiche churche also them selues confesse to bee faulty in many pointes : And wherein was nothinge hable to staie any wise man , or one , that hath consideration of his owne safetie .

M. Hardinge .

And why haue ye renounced this Churche , but for that ye might not be suffered to sette foorthe to the losse of Christen soules the detestable heresies of Wicklef , Luther , Zuinglius , Caluine , and other youre false Maisters , whiche ye cal youre sincere woorde of God , after youre Schismatical , and Heretical manner ? That ye saie , there was nothinge in the Catholique Churche , hable to staie any wise man , or any that hath consideration of his safetie : it is one of youre impudent lies .

There were bothe wise menne in the Churche , and greate multitudes of sutche as hadde good regarde of their soule healthe , alwaies before the Deuil hadde sutche a hande vpon Luther , and the reste of youre newe Apostles , and Apostates .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 4.

To conclude , wee haue foresaken the churche , as it is nowe , not as it was in Olde times paste , and haue so gonne from it , as Daniel went out of the Lions Denne , and the three children out of the Furnesse : and , to saie the truthe , we haue benne caste out by these menne , ( beinge cursed of them , as thei vse to saie , with Booke , Bel , and Candel ) rather then haue gonne awaie from them of our selues .

M. Hardinge .

The Churche that nowe is , and the Churche that was in Olde time , is one Churche , as a man in his olde age is the same man , he was in his youthe . * * Vntruth . For God him selfe saithe , Comme foorth from the middes of them , O my people : Apocal. 18. From the whiche Churche no faultes , or unperfections can excuse you for youre departinge . Daniel . 6. & . 3. Neither haue ye gone from it as Daniel was deliuered out of the Lions Denn● , nor as the three Children out of the Furnesse : but ye haue departed wilfully from the house of God , where touchinge Faithe , al be of one accorde , vnto the Synagog of Antichriste , vnto Babylon of Sectes , where is no order , but confusion , vnto the kingdome of Satan : and there ye remaine as it were in a Denne of Lions , where that roring Lion with his fellowes , lieth in waite , 1. Pet. 5. seckinge whom he maie deuoure . Ye haue stepped from the place of Spiritual refrigerie , into the frieinge panne of Schismes and Heresies , A hote kinde of Diuinitie . and from thence , after that ye haue nowe boyled and fried , in malice and rancoure againste the Churche , excepte ye repent , ye are like to leape into the Furnesse of Hel , that for euer shal tormente you , and neuer consume you . Complaine not of youre castinge out of the Churche . To be excommunicate , ye haue deserued . And that kinde of punishement is by a merciful discipline , extended vpon you , partly for your amendement , partly to conserue the reste of the body whole from youre pestiferous contagion .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Nowe yee beginne to keepe Hote Schooles , M. Hardinge . Youre Frieinge pannes , and Furnesses , with other youre like Kitchin implementes of Frieinge , and Boilinge , are hote , and dangerous to deale withal .

The causes of oure departure from you , are answeared before .

The Churche , ye saie , that nowe is , and the Churche , that was in Olde times , is one Churche . Euen so , as I shewed you before , the Moone , beinge ful , and the same Moone eclipsed , is one Moone : Euen so , a Man wel aduised , and the same Man starke madde , Matthae . 21. is one Man : Euen so , the house of God , and a Caue of theeues , is one House .

Yee haue Excommunicate vs , Iohan. 9. 12. 16. Iohan. Epist. 3. Qui amat Primatum gerere . Apocalyp. 13. and put vs from you . So did certaine of youre Predecessours , and Fathers , Excommunicate Christe , and his Apostles . So did Diotrephes , that firste claimed your Papale Primacie , Excommunicate the Faithful of Christe , that were the Firste Planters of the Gospel . So it is written in the Apocalyps , that Antichriste shal Excommunicate al them , that wil not Adoure the Image of the Beaste .

The Pope him selfe saithe , 24. Quae. 1. Ait . Excommunicatus non potest Excommunicare : He that is Excommunicate him selfe , hath no Right , or Power to Excommunicate others . 24. Quae. 3. Comperimus , Rubri . And in youre owne Lawe it is written thus , Qui illicitè alium Excommunicat , seipsum , non illum , condemnat : He that vnlawefully Excommunicateth an other , Condemneth not him , but him selfe .

S. Augustine saithe , August Ad Clericos Hipponen . Citatur . 11. Quae. 3. Quid obest . Augustin . In Iohan. Tract. 45. Quid obest homini , si eum de illa Tabula delere velit Humana ignorantia , quem de Libro viuentium non delet iniqua conscientia ? What is a man the woorse , if the ignorance of a man strike him out of the Booke of the Churche , if il Conscience strike him not oute of the Booke of Life ? In this case S. Augustine saithe , It commeth sommetimes to passe , Vt plurimae sint Foris oues , & plurimi sint Intus Lupi : That there be many Sheepe without the Churche , and many Woulues within the Churche .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 5.

And wee are comme to that Churche , wherein thei them selues cannot denie ( if thei wil saie truely , and as thei thinke in their owne conscience ) but al thinges bee gouerned purely , and reuerently , and as mutche , as wee possibly coulde , very neere to the order vsed in the olde time .

M. Hardinge .

Ye are come vnto the malignant Churche , to the Congregation of Reprobates , whither as into a sincke in maner al the Heresies that Satan euer raised vp from the beginning , be auoided .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 1.

Let them compare oure Churches and theirs togeather , and thei shal see , that them selues haue moste shamefully gonne from the Apopostles : and wee moste iustely haue gonne from them . For wee , folowinge the Example of Christe , of the Apostles , and the Holy Fathers , geeue the people the Holy Communion , Whole , and perfite : But these menne , contrarie to al the Fathers , to al the Apostles , and contrarie to Christe him selfe , doo seuer the Sacramentes , and plucke away the one parte from the people , and that with moste notorious Sacrilege , as Gelasius termeth it .

Wee haue broughte againe the Lordes Supper vnto Christes Institution , and haue made it a Communion in very deede , common , and indifferent to a greate number , accordinge to the name . But these menne haue chaunged al thinges , contrarie to Christes Institution , and haue made a Priuate Masse , of the Holy Communion . And so it commeth to passe , that we geeue the Lordes Supper vnto the people : and thei greue them a vaine Pagent , to gase vpon .

Wee affirme togeather with the Ancient Fathers , that the Body of Christe is not eaten , but of the good , & Faithful , and of those , that are endued with the Sprite of Christe . Theire Doctrine is , that Christes very Body Effectually , and , as thei speake , Really , and Substantially , maie not onely be eaten of the wicked , and vnfaithful menne , but also ( whiche is monstrous , and horrible to be spoken ) of Mise , and Dogges .

We vse to praie in our Churches , 1. Corinth. 14. after that fashion , as , according to Paules lesson , the people maie knowe , what wee praie , and maie answeare , Amen , with a general consent . These menne , like soundinge Metal , yelle oute in the Churches vnknowen , and strange woordes without vnderstandinge , without knowledge , and without deuotion : yea , and doo it of pourpose , bicause the people should vnderstande nothinge at al.

M. Hardinge .

* * Vntruthe . For there is no better comparison , then bitwene Contraries : Contraria iuxta se posita , magis elucescunt . As comparison can not duely be made betweene Lighte and Darkenes , betweene Truthe and Lieing , betwene Christe and Belial : so neither betwene the Catholike Churche , and startinge holes of Heretiques . You saie muche , and proue nothinge . The moste ye haue to crake of , whiche yee haue neuer doone withal , is youre ministringe of bothe kindes vnto the people , youre newe founde holy daie the Englishe Communion , your Seruice in the vulgare tonge ▪ and your vile obiection of Mise and Dogges . This is the storeboxe of M. Iuelles high Diuinitie , whiche he maketh no greate store of , but shaketh it abroade euery where . To euery pointe I haue saide so mutche , as is ‡ ‡ Yenough , no doubte , and sufficiente . For in the selfe same foure Articles , M. Hard. hath vttered foure score and fourteen great vntruthes . yenough , to staie the hartes of those , that feare God , in mine answeare to M. Iuelles chalenge . To the mater of bothe kindes , and the obiection made out of Gelasius , in the seconde article . To that of Priuate Masse , in the firste article . To al that is saide for the Churche Seruice in the vulgare tongue , in the thirde Article . To the obiection of Mise , Dogges , and Wormes , in the 23. Article . The same here to reherse againe , I thinke it nedeles .

But where ye affirme the Body of Christe not to bee eaten , but of the good , and faithful onely , if ye meane the Sacramental eating , so as it is eaten vnder the Sacrament in the visible forme of Bread , and Wine , and not of the * * Vnfruteful , & vaine distinctions Reade the Answeare . Spiritual eating onely , that is false . In that ye saie the Fathers be on your side , meaninge the * Sacramental eatinge , ye belie them . And so like wise reporting our Doctrine to be , that wicked and vnfaithful menne maie eate the Body of * Christe effectually , ye be●●e vs . We teache that the euil maie eate the Body of Christe Really , Comparison of churches . that is , in deede , but not effectually . They onely eate effectually , who eatinge it worthely obteine the effecte of Christes Body : Whiche is the vnitie of the mystical body of Christe , Gregor. Dialog. li. 4. and increace of grace . * * This Booke is ful of Fables , and Vanities : and therefore not thought to bee S. Gregories . There is verely ( saithe S. Gregorie ) in sinners , and in them whiche receiue vnworthely , the true Fleashe of Christe , and his true Bloude , sed essentia , non salubri efficentia , but in substance , not in holesome effecte .

That euil menne receiue the true Body of Christe Sacramentally , Augustin . Epist. 162. no lesse then good , where I might alleage in manner al the Olde Fathers , ‡ ‡ S. Augustine is directely to the Contrarie . See the Answeare . S. Augustine only maie suffice , who affirmeth the same , speakinge thus of Iudas . Tolerat ipse Dominus Iudam , diabolum , furem , & venditorem suum finit accipere inter innocentes Discipulos , quod norunt fideles , pretium nostrum . Our Lorde him selfe doth tolerate Iudas , and suffereth a Deuil , a Thefe , and him that solde him , to receiue amongest his innocent Disciples * * Our Price , He meaneth the Sacramente of our Price . our Price , whiche the Faithful doo knowe . But what nede any man to require the testimonies of Fathers , 1. Corin. 11. sithe S. Paule teacheth vs , so to beleue ? Who so euer ( saithe he ) eateth this Bread , and drinketh of the Cuppe of our Lorde vnworthely , he shal●e gilty of the Body , and Bloude of our Lorde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

There is no better comparison to bee made , M. Hardinge , then bitweene Light , and Darkenesse : Truthe , and Falsehed : Christe , and Belial . For one of these contraries doothe euermore bewraie the other . And therefore Christe saithe , Iohan. 3. He that doothe il , hateth the Light , and commeth not to it : leste his euil dooinges shoulde bee espied . And this is it , M. Hardinge , that you so carefully keepe the people from the Lighte of Goddes woorde : Plini . li. 18. leste by comparison thereof , they shoulde beginne to lothe youre Darkenesse . Plinie saithe , Tritico reperto , continuò damnatum est Hordeum , & quadrupedum refectibus traditum : As soone as Wheate was once founde ( by comparison thereof ) streight waie Barly was refused , and geuen to Cattel to feede vpon .

S. Cyprian . Ad Cornelium , li. 1. Epi. 3. Cyprian saithe , Haec est , frater , vera dementia , non cogitare , quòd mendacia non diu fallant : Noctem tam diu esse , donec illucescat dies : This is very mere madnesse , my Brother , not to consider , that lies cannot longe deceiue the world : ( Remember ) it is Night no lenger , Chrysostom . In Matthae . ca. 23. but vntil the Daie spring . And therefore Chrysostome saithe , as it is alleged before , Haeretici claudunt Ianuas Veritatis : Heretiques shut vp the Gates of the Truthe . For they knowe right wel , if the Truthe maie appeare , theire falsehedde wil soone be espied , Tertul. De praescription . and the Churches shal be none of theires . Tertullian saithe , Ipsa Doctrina Haereticorum cum Apostolica comparata , ex diuersitate , & contrarietate sua pronuntiabit , neque Apostoli alicuius Authoris esse , neque Apostolici Viri : The very Doctrine of Heretiques compared togeather with the Apostles Doctrine , euen by the diuersitie , and contrarietie , that is in it , beareth witnesse of it selfe , that it neuer came , neither from any Apostle of Christe , nor from any Apostolique Man .

When the Emperoure Adrianus hadde yeelded to graunte the Christians one Church within the Cittie of Rome , Aelius Lampridius . certaine of his Priuie Counsel aduised him in any wise not so to doo : For that , they saide , if the Christians might haue but one Churche within the Cittie , the whole people woulde becomme Christians : and by comparison thereof , theire Idolles Churches should be forsaken . Restore you the Holy Communion , M. Hardinge , and ye shal see youre Masses , and Mockeries soone falle to grounde , 1. Regum . 5. Hieronym . Ad Algasiam , Quae. 11. as did the Idole Dagon at the presence of the Arke of God . S. Hierome saithe , Mendacium Antichristi , Christi veritas deuorabit : The Truthe of Christe shal deuoure , and consume the Lieinge of Antichriste .

Touchinge the Shakinge out of Stoareboxes , yee hadde no greate cause to complaine . For there is not one of al these maters , one onely of Priuate Masse excepted , that hitherto throughout this Apologie hathe , to my remembraunce , benne touched , Infidelles , Dogges , Mise . or mentioned more , then once . But it is a smal mater , M. Hardinge , that maie suffice you , to make a quarrel .

That Mise , and Dogges maie eate the very Natural Body of Christe , and that Really , Substantially , and in deede , it is youre Doctrine : it is not ours . For wee vtterly abhorre it , and defie it , as moste detestable , and lothesome villanie .

I marueile not , to heare you saie , that wicked Creatures , and Faithlesse Infidelles maie eate Christes Body , seeinge yee doubte not , to auouche the same of Brute Beastes , August . in Iohan . tracta. 26. and Dombe Cattel . Yet , S. Augustine saithe , Hoc Manducare illam Escam , & illum Potum Bibere , in Christo manere , & illum manentem in se habere : This is the Eatinge of that Meate , and the drinkinge of that Drinke , Iohan. 6. for a man to dwelle in Christe , and to haue Christe dwellinge within him . Euen so saithe Christe him selfe , He that eateth my Fleashe , and Drinketh my Bloude . ( is neither wicked Creature , nor Faithlesse Infidelle , nor Dogge , nor Mouse , but ) dwelleth in mee , Augusti . Epist. 162. and I in him .

But S. Augustine saithe , Iudas accepit Pretium nostrum : Iudas receiued oure Price : whiche by youre exposition can bee none other , but the Body of Christe . O M. Hardinge , yee shoulde not thus haue mockte the worlde with this Authoritie . You youre selfe knowe , yee deale not plainely : you youre selfe knowe , that S. Augustine by these woordes ( Oure Price ) meante onely the Sacramente of oure Price . Chrysostom . Ad Haebr . Homi. 16. So Chrysostome saithe , Baptisma Christi Sanguis Christi est : The Baptisme of Christe , is the Bloude of Christe : Not for that it is so in deede , but for that it is a Sacramente of the Bloude of Christe . Euen so it is noted in youre owne Decrees : De Con. Dis. 2. Hoc est . Ipsa immolatio carnis Christi , quae Sacerdotis manibus fit , Vocatur Christi Passio , Mors , Crucifixio : Non Rei Veritate , sed Significante Mysterio : The Oblation of the fleashe of Christe , that is wrought with the Priestes handes , is called the Passion , the Death , and the Crucifieinge of Christe : not in Truthe of mater , but in a Mysterie Signifieinge . This Exposition ye maie not wel refuse : It is S. Augustines : It is youre owne . Hereof wee haue spoken otherwheres more at large . But , to put the mater oute of doubte , that it maie appeare , in what sense Iudas receiued the Price of Christes Deathe , S. Augustine him selfe thereof saithe thus , Augustin . In Psalm . 3. Christus adhibuit Iudam ad Conuiuium , in quo corporis , & Sanguinis sui Figuram Discipulis suis commendauit , & tradidit : Christe receiued Judas vnto his Banket , whereat he gaue to his Disciples the Figure of his Body , and Bloude .

The Booke , that ye allege in the name of S. Gregorie , is vaine , and Childishe , and ful of Fables , and not S. Gregories .

But S. Paule saithe , 1. Cor. 11. Who so euer Eateth of this Breade , and Drinketh of the Cuppe of oure Lorde vnwoorthily , he shal be guilty of the Body , and Bloude of oure Lorde . Euen so S. August . Contra Cresco . li. 1. ca. 23. August Contra Cresco . li. 2 ca. 13. Augustine writeth of the Water of Baptisme : Baptismus valet , alijs ad Regnum : alijs ad Iudicium : Baptisme is auaileable to somme vnto the Kingdome of God : to somme vnto Judgemente . Againe he saithe , Baptismum multi habent , non ad Vitam Aeternam , sed ad Poenam Aeternam , non bene vtentes tanto bono : Somme haue Baptisme , not to Life Euerlastinge , but to Paine Euerlastinge , not wel vsinge so good a thinge .

Likewise saithe Tertullian , Tertullian . De Baptismo . Si qui pondus intelligant Baptismi , magis timebunt consecutionem , quàm dilationem : They that vnderstande the weighte of Baptisme , wil feare more the geattinge of it , then the delate .

Yet yee presse the mater further : S. Paule saithe , Who so eateth vnworthily of this Breade , is guilty of the Body and Bloude of Christe : Ergo , saie you , Christes Body , and Bloude muste needes be Really Present . Here , Maister Hardinge , it were a woorthy mater , Guilty of the Bodie and Bloude &c. to see , by what enginnes ye woulde proue these hasty Conclusions , or howe yee woulde force this Guilte , and this Presence to goe togeather . For , thinke you , that no man can be guilty of the Body , and Bloude of Christe , but he , that hath Christes Body , and Bloude Really Present in his hande ? Verily , S. Augustine saithe , August . De Tempore , Sermo. 20. Reus erit , non parui preiij , sed Sanguinis Christi , qui violat , & commaculat Animam , Christi Sanguine , & Passione mundatam : He is Guilty of no smal Price , but euen of the Bloude of Christe , that ( by Fornication , or Aduouterie ) defileth his owne soule , that was made cleane by the Passion , and Bloude of Christe . Yet hath he not therefore Christes Bloude Really Presente .

Athanasius saithe , Athana . De Passione , & Cruce Domini . Ezechiel . 33. Adorantes Dominum , neque ita , vt dignum est eo , viuentes , non sentiunt se reos fieri Dominicae Mortis : Worshippinge Oure Lorde , and not liuinge so as is meete for our Lorde , they feele not , that thereby they are made Guilty of our Lordes Death . So saithe God by the Prophete Ezechiel , I wil require the Bloude of the people at thy hande .

Christe saithe , Luke . 11. God shal require of you the Bloude of the Prophetes , that hathe benne sheadde from the beginninge of the worlde .

This Guilte , M. Hardinge , maie wel stande withoute any Real Presence of the Bloude , either of Christe , or of the Prophetes .

This therefore is S. Paules meaninge , that the wicked , resortinge vnwoorthily to the Holy Mysteries , and hauinge no regarde , what is meante thereby , despise the Deathe , and Crosse of Christe , and therefore are Guilty of the Lordes Body , and Bloude , that are represented in the Sacramente .

Chrysostome saithe , Concil. Nicen. 2. Actio . 6. as he is alleged in the seconde Councel of Nice , Is , qui Imaginem Imperatoris violat , in prototypum Dignitatis iniustus est : He , that defileth the Emperoures Image , is iniurious to the Maiestie of the Emperoures Persone , that is pourtraide in the Image .

S. Cyprian saithe , Cyprian . De Ablutione pedum . Impijs , in Morte Christi nullus superest quaestus : sed iustissimè eos beneficia neglecta condemnant : The wicked haue no gaine by the Deathe of Christe : but the benefites , that they haue despised , doo moste iustely condemne them .

To comme neare to the pourpose , August . Ad Bonifaci . Epist. 50. S. Augustine saithe , Habent Foris Sacramentum Corporis Christi : sed Rem ipsam non tenent Intus , cuius est illud Sacramentum . Et ideò sibi iudicium manducant , & bibunt : Outwardly they haue the Sacramente of Christes Body : But the thinge it selfe ( whiche is Christes Body , represented by the Sacramente ) inwardly in theire hartes they haue not . And therefore they Eate , and Drinke their owne iudgemente . S. Augustine saithe , they are Guilty , not bicause they receiue , but bicause they receiue not the Body of Christe .

Againe he saithe , August . In Iohan . tracta. 26. Qui non manet in Christo , & in quo non manet Christus , procul dubio non Manducat Spiritualiter Carnem eius , nec Bibit eius Sanguinem : licet Carnaliter , & Visibiliter premat dentibus Sacramentum Corporis , & Sanguinis Christi : Sed magis tantae rei Sacramentum ad Iudicium sibi Manducat & Bibit : He that abideth not in Christe , nor Christe in him , out of doubte he eateth not Spiritually his Fleashe , nor Drinketh his Bloude : not withstanding Carnally ( that is to saie , with his bodily Mouthe ) and visibly he do presse with his teethe the Sacramente of the Body , and Bloud of Christ : And rather , eateth and drinketh ( not Christes very Body , and Bloude , but ) the Sacramente of so greate a thinge vnto his Judgemente . These woordes , M. Hardinge , be so plaine , that I cannot imagine , what ye should more desire . They are Guilty of the bloude of Christe , for that they despise the price , wherewith they were saued , not for that they receiue it Really into theire mouthes .

So S. Augustine saithe againe , Reus erit Aeternae Mortis , quia vilem in se habuit Sanguinem Redemptoris : Guiltie of the Bodie and Bloude &c. The Aduouteroure is Guilty of Euerlastinge Deathe , bicause he despised in him selfe the Bloude of oure Sau●oure .

The Distinction , that you imagine bitweene Real Receiuinge in the wicked , and Effectual Receiuinge in the Godly , August . De Tempore , Sermo. 120. as it is onely of youre selfe , without the Authoritie of any Doctoure , Greeke , or Latine , so is it nothing els , but a very Effectual , and Real Folie . For the very Body of Christe , if it be not Effectually receiued , is not receiued . Christe him selfe saithe , He that eateth mee , shal liue by me . Ambros . De Benediction . Patriarch . cap. 6. S. Ambrose saithe , Hic panis est remissio peccatorum . Qui accipit , non moritur morte peccatoris : This Breade is the Remission of Sinnes . He that receiueth it , shal not die the death of Sinner .

S. Augustine saithe , Qui non sumit hanc Escam , non habet Vitam : & , qui eam sumit , August . In Iohan . tracta. 26. habet Vitam , & hanc vtique Aeternam : He , that receiueth not this meate , hath no life : And he , that receiueth the same , hath life , and that Euerlastinge .

Likewise againe he saithe , August . ●odem loco . Huius rei Sacramentum in Mensa Dominica praeparatur , & de Mensa Dominica sumitur : quibusdam ad vitam , quibusdam ad exitium : Res vero ' ipsa , cuius est Sacramentum , omni homini ad vitam , nulli ad exitium , quicunque eius particeps fuerit : The Sacramente hereof is prepared vpon the Lordes Table , and from the Lordes Table is receiued : to somme vnto life , to somme vnto destruction . But the thinge it selfe , ( that is , the Body of Christe , ) whereof it is a Sacrament , is receiued , of al menne to life , and of no man to destruction , whosoeuer shal be partaker of it .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 2.

But , not to tarrie aboute rehearsing al pointes , wherein wee and they differ , for they haue wel nigh no ende , wee turne the Scriptures into al tongues : they scant suffer them to be hadde abroade in any tounge .

M. Hardinge .

Wee * * This is nothing . but open mockerie . gladly suffer them to be hadde in euery place of christendome in the learned tongues , Hebrewe , Greeke , and Latine ( to be readde of the vulgare Vnlearned people ) . Neither were they altogether forbidden to be hadde in somme vulgare tongues , before the saucy maleperines of Heretiques forced the gouernours of the Churche , for sauegarde of the people , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , too fonde for a child For there was neuer sutche order taken by the Gouernours of the Churche . to take other order .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Ye can vouchesaue to allowe vs the Scriptures in the three Learned Tongues , Greeke , Hebrewe , and Latine : that is to saie , in sutche sorte , as the simple people maie in no wise touche them . But where did God euer sanctifie these three tongues , and cal them Learned ? Or , where were they euer so specially Canonized , and allowed , aboue al other tongues , to the custodie of the Scriptures ?

S. Augustine saithe , August . Epist. 48. Scriptura Canonica tot Linguarum Literis , & ordine , & successione Celebrationis Ecclesiasticae custoditur : The Canonical Scripture is keapte in the Letters of so manie tongues , and by the order , and succession of Ecclesiastical publishinge . Againe he saithe , August . De Doctrina Christiana . li. 2. ca. 5. Scriptura Diuina ab vna Lingua profecta , per varias interpretum Linguas , longè , latéque diffusa , innotuit Gentibus ad Salutem : The Holy Scriptures , passing from one Tongue , and beinge published abroade , fane and wide , ( not only by three learned Tongues , but also ) by sundrie Tongues of Interpretours , haue comme to the knowledge of Nations , and people , to their Saluation . Againe he saithe , Habemus Dei beneficium , August . In Psal. 105. qui Scripturas suas in multis Linguis esse voluit : We haue the benefite of God , that woulde haue his Scriptures to be ( not onely in Three , but ) in many Tongues .

S. Chrysostome saith , The Scriptures in the vulgare tongues . Syri , Aegyptij , Indi , Persae , Aethiopes , & innumerae aliae Gentes , Dogmata ab hoc introducta , in suam transferentes Linguam , hommes Barbari , Philosophari didicerunt : The Syrians , the Egyptians , the Indians , the Persians , the Ethiopians , and other nations innumerable , translatinge into theire owne tongues the Doctrine , Chrysost. in Iohan . Homil. 1. Hieronym . in Psalm . 86. that they had receiued of S. Iohn , being Barbarous people , endenvoured them selues to learne wisedome . S. Hierome saithe , Scriptura Sancta populis omnibus legitur , vt omnes intelligant : The Holy Scripture is readde to al Nations , that al maie vnderstand it . It were harde to saie , that al the Nations of the worlde readde , or hearde the Scriptures in Gréeke , Hebrewe , or Latine , to the intent , thei might the better vnderstande them . If these Authorities séeme not plaine , and sufficiente , Theodoret. De corrigend . Graecorum affectib . Lib. 5. Theodoretus saithe further , Hebraici Libri , non modó in Graecum idioma conuersi sunt , sed in Romanam quoque Linguam , Aegyptiam , Persicam , Indicam , Armenicam , & Scythicam , atque adeó Sauromaticam : semelque vt dicam , in Linguas omnes , quibus ad hanc diem Nationes vtuntur : The Hebrewe Bookes of the Scriptures are translated , not onely into the Greeke , or Latine tongue , but also into the tongues of Egypte , Persia , India , Armenia , Scythia , and Sarmatia : and , to be shorte , into al the tongues , that vntil this daie are vsed in the worlde . This , I trowe , is sommewhat more , then Greeke , Hebrewe , and Latine . This whole matter , in my Former Replie to M. Hardinge , Articulo . 15. is further answeared .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 3.

We allure the people to reade , and to heare Goddes Woord : thei driue the people from it .

M. Hardinge .

Ye allure the people busely to heare , and reade the Scriptures for euil purpose . And thereby ye haue filled theire hartes , whom ye haue deceiued , with pride , so as they thinke them selues able to iudge of the highest questions , that be in diuinitie . We kepe the people , so farre as we can for you , from heresies , and require them rather to be hearers , then iudges , and to learne necessary knowledge of Gods worde * * A mockerie . For many heare not one Sermon in twentie yeeres . at holesome , and Godly sermons .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée teache not the people , to presume of Knowledge , as you teache them , to presume of Ignorance : But onely wée exhorte them , for the better satisfaction of theire consciences , to reade the Scriptures , & therein to learne the good wil of God . And , not withstandinge ye maie not allowe them to be Iudges , that is to saie , to discerne bitwéene the Light of God , and your Darkenesse , yet yée might suffer them to pike vp somme smal crommes , that fal from the Lordes Table . How be it , socrates saith , Apolog. Sacratis Matth. 11. The simple vnlearned people , in cases of Truthe , iudgeth oftentimes more vprightly , then the déepest Philosophers . Likewise Christe saithe , I thanke thee , O Father , for that thou hast hidde these thinges from the wise , and politique , and hast opened the same to littel babes .

But ye wil saie , The Scriptures are harde , and aboue the reache of the people . Euen so saide the Pelagian Heretique Iulianus . And therefore S. Augustine thus reproueth him for the same : Augusti . Contra Iulian. Li. 5. Ca. 1 Exaggeras , quàm sit difficilis , paucisque conueniens erudiris Sanctarum cognitio Literarum : Yee enlarge , and laie out with many wordes , how harde a mater the knowledge of the Scriptures is , and meete onely for a fewe learned men . S. Chrysostome saith , Scripturae & Seruo , Chrysostom . in Matth. Homil. 1. & Rustico , & Viduae , & Puero , & illi , qui valdè imprudens esse videatur , faciles sunt ad intelligendum : The Scriptures are easy to the Sclaue , to the Husbandeman , to the Widowe , to the Childe , and to him , that maie seeme to be very simple of vnderstandinge . Augusti . Episc 3. S. Augustine saithe , Modus ipse dicendi , quo Sacra Scriptura contexitur , &c. quasi amicus familiaris , sine fuco ad cor loquitur indoctorum , atque doctorum : The phrase , or manner of speache , wherein the Scriptures are written , &c. speaketh without coloure as a familiare frend vnto the hart , as wel of the Vnlearned , as of the Learned . S. Cyril saithe , Cyrillus contra Iulian. Lib. 7. Scripturae , vt omnibus essent notae , paruis , & magnis , Vtiliter familiari sermone commendatae sunt , ita vt nullius captum transcendant : The Scriptures , that they might be easy to al menne , as wel smal , as greate , are profitably set abroade in familiare speache : so , that they ouerreache no mannes capacitie . S. Augustine saith , Sunt quidam homines , Augu. in Psal. 131 qui , cùm audierint , quo'd debent esse humiles , nihil volunt discere : putantes , quo'd , si aliquid didicerint , Superbi erunt , &c. Hos reprehendit Scriptura : Somme menne , when they heare saie , they muste be lowly , wil learne nothing : thinking , that , if they learne any thinge , they shal be prowde . But these are reproued by the Scriptures . Likewise againe S. Augustine saithe , Augu. In Senten . exceptis ex Augustino , Pa. 1067. Ipsa ignorantia in illis , qui intelligere noluerunt , sine dubitarione peccatum est : In eis autem , qui non potuerunt , est poena peccati . Ergo , in vtrisque non est excusatio , sed iusta damnatio : Ignorance in them , that woulde not vnderstande , without doubte is sinne : But in them , that coulde not vnderstande , it is the punishement of sinne . Therefore neither of them bothe hath good excuse : but either of them hath iuste damnation .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 4.

We desire to haue our cause knowen to al the worlde : they flee to comme to any trial .

M. Hardinge .

Then why came ye not to the A woorthy Councel of fourtie Bishops , sutche as they were : In the time of Paulus . 3 chiefe , and moste lauful consistorie of the worlde , the late general Councel at Trent ? What trial shoulde we come vnto ? Our Doctrine hath had too high a teacher , to be tried by men nowe . It hath ben approued too longe , to be put in daieinge in these daies at the later ende of the worlde .

The B. of Sarisburie .

That wée made not our appearance at your late Chapter at Tridente , ye haue already made our excuse . The Iourney was too longe , to be taken in vaine . Ye saie , your Doctrine , be it right , be it wronge , maie not nowe be tried , nor put in daieinge . So saide sommetimes the Olde Donatiane Heretiques vnto S. Augustine , Disputare nolumus : Augu. Epist. 169. & Baptizare volumus : Dispute wee wil not : But ( continewe in our erroure , and ) Baptize wee wil.

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 5.

We leane vnto Knowledge : they vnto Ignorance . We truste vnto Light : they vnto Darkenesse .

M. Hardinge .

Ye leane to the fauoure of secular Princes , whom by flattery , and Heresie ye may deceiue . Crake not of your greate knowledge , Esai . 5. nor of your light . O be to them , crieth our Lorde in Esaie , that saie , good is euil , and euil is good : that put light for darkenes , and darkenes for light . Your demeanour is so euil , your Doctrine so false , your tongue so railinge , that we take your worde for no slaunder .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée flatter our Princes , M. Hardinge , as Nathan flattered Kinge Dauid : as Iohn Baptiste flattered Herode : as S. Ambrose flattered Theodosius , and as salte flattereth the gréene soare . In déede wée despise not the Minister of God , as sundrie of your felowes haue vsed to doe : Dorman . Pag. 15. Stanislaus Orichonius in Chimaera . of whom one doubteth not to saie , The Pope is the Heade : and Kinges , and Emperours are the Feete . An other saithe , The Prieste is so farre aboue the Kinge , as a Man is aboue a Beaste . Sutche woordes of contempt , and villanie we haue not vsed . Wée yelde to the Kinge , that is dewe to the Kinge : wée yelde to God , that is dewe to God . Wée saie to the Prince , Ambros . Lib. 5. Epist. 33. as S. Ambrose sommetime saide to the Emperoure Valentinian : Noli te grauare Imperator , vt putes te in ea , quae Diuina sunt , Imperiale aliquod ius habere : Trouble not your selfe , Flattering of Princes my Lorde , to thinke , that you haue any Princely Power ouer those thinges , that perteine to God .

But if they be flatterers , that humbly aduertise , & directe theire Liege Princes by the Woorde of God , Petr. De palude : de potestat . pp. 〈◊〉 . 40. Non nos . on Glossa . Extrauag. Iohan 22. ●um inter . in Glossa . Hostien De trāslaitone Praelais . Quanto . what are they then , that saie , as you saie , Totus Mundus non potest accusare Papam : Nemo potest dicere Papae , Domine cur ita facis ? Sacrilegij instar esset , disputare de facto Papae : Dominus Deus noster Papa : papapotest , quicquid Deus ipse Potest : The whole world maie not accuse the Pope : No ma● maie saie to the Pope , Sir , why doo yee thus ? It were a sinne as bodde as Sacrilege , to dispute of any the Popes doinges : Our Lorde God the Pope : The Pope maie doo , what so euer God him selfe maie doo . These , these , M. Hardinge , and a thousand other your like speaches maie séeme sommewhat to smel of flatterie .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision 6. & 7.

We reuerence , as it becommeth vs , the Writinges of the Apostles , and Prophetes : and they burne them .

Finally , we in Goddes cause , desire to stande to Goddes onely iudgemente : they wil stande onely to theire owne .

M. Hardinge .

What so euer ye pretende , the cause ye haue taken in hande to defende , is not Gods cause : neither is this stirre , Hosiuscontra Brentum Lib. 1. whiche ye make in the worlde , for Christes sake . ●uther himselfe , when at a disputation with doctor Eckius , inflamed with anger , and passinge the boundes of modestie , was admonished of certaine , for as mutche as it was Gods cause , that was treated , to handle the matter more soberly and with the spirite of softenes , he brake out into these wordes : Non propter Deum haecres caepta est , nec propter Deum finietur . This mater is not begonne for Gods sake , neither for Gods sake shal i● be ended . Therefore speake no more to vs of Gods cause . There be other causes , the moue you to doo , as ye doo . * * Vntruthe , standinge in open , and wilful corruption .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Luther , yée saie , in disputation , was enflamed with anger , and passed the boundes of modestie . No doubte , M. Hardinge , if he had had somme parte of your sobrietie , and modestie , he might haue donne a greate deale better . Touchinge the mater , being zelously moued with the iniquitie , and wicked wilfulnesse of his Aduersaries , he vttered these wordes , Iacobus Andreae contra Hosium . Pag 352. not of him selfe , but of Freere Eckius , that disputed against him : Eckius , and his felowes neuer beganne this mater for Goddes sake , nor for Goddes sake wil they ende it . For he sawe , they had begonne , & were bente to ende it againste God , as beinge enflamed with ambition , and malice , and procured , and hired by the Pope . Euen so , M. Hardinge , maie wée also truely saie , You , and your Felowes haue not begonne these your Contentious Vanities for Goddes sake : nor for Goddes sake wil you ende them .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 8.

Wherefore , if thei wil weigh al these thinges with a quiet minde , & fully bente to heare , & to learne , thei wil not onely allowe this determination of ours , whoe haue foresaken Errours , & folowed Christe , and his Apostles , but themselues also wil foresake their owne selues , and ioine of theire owne accorde to our side , to goe with vs .

Here endeth the Fifthe Parte .
The Sixthe Parte .
The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 1.

BVt peraduenture they wil saie , it was treason , to attempt these maters without a sacred General Councel : For that therein consisteth the whole force of the Churche : there Christe hath promised , he wil euer be a presente assistant . Yet they themselues , without tarrienge for any General Councel , haue broken the Commaundementes of God , and the Decrees of the Apostles : and , as wee said a little aboue , they haue spoiled , and disanulled almoste al , not onely the Ordinaunces , but euen the Doctrine of the Primitiue Churche . And , where they saie , It is not lawful , to make a chaunge without a Councel , what was he , that gaue vs these Lawes , or , from whence had they this Iniunction ?

M. Hardinge .

If general Councels continewe in that estimation , and Auctoritie they haue euer had , theire priuate conspiracies , and false conueiances in corners be like to be dasshed . Nowe pri●keth foorth theire Secretary , who thinketh him self a fresh souldier in Rhetorike , and geueth the onsette vpon vs , with a blinde peraduenture . But Sir , what so euer you imagine vs to saie , touchinge a General Councel , we are not so simple as to graunt ( whiche your Peraduenture semeth to surmise of vs ) that your Heretical , and moste vngodly matters , whiche you speake of , might without blame be attempted by licence of any Councel . Sutche wicked changes in religion , as ye haue made , neither is it lawful to make with a Councel , nor without a Councel .

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 2.

In deede King Agesilaus did but fondely : who , when he had a determinate answeare made him of the opinion and wil of mighty Iuppiter , woulde afterwarde bringe the whole matter before Apollo , to knowe , whether he woulde allowe thereof , as his Father Iuppiter had donne , or no. But yet shoulde wee doo mutche more fondely , when we heare God him selfe plainely speake to vs in his most Holy Scriptures , and maie vnderstande by them his wil and meaninge , if wee would afterwarde ( as though this were of none effecte ) bring our whole cause to be tried by a Councel : which were nothinge els , but to aske , whether menne would allowe as God did , and , whether menne woulde confirme Goddes Commaundemente by theire Authoritie .

M. Hardinge .

For as mutche as the scriptures , wherein God speaketh vnto vs , be in sundrie places not moste open and plaine to * * Vaine folie . For what haue Humaine , or Natural senses to doo with the sense of God ? humaine senses , and many by mistakinge them be deceiued : were it not wel done of you , for the more suretie , and better vnderstandinge of that ye goe about , I meane , in matters concerninge religion , To take Counsel of men . to folowe the iudgemente of the Catholike Churche represented in general councels ? Yea we saie boldely , that surer it is in pointes of faithe to leane to the ‡ ‡ The Expositions of the Fathers very seldome agree togeat● er : Yet are they for the most parte , contrarie to the Churche of Rome . exposition of the Fathers agreinge togeather , and to folowe the tradition of the Churche : then to trust to your selues , or to the letter of the scriptures , scanned onely by your owne wittes . For the Churche is promised to be lead into al Truthe by the holy Ghost . Ye cannot saie , any such promise hath ben made to your particulare company . Therefore it were not fondly done , as ye saie , but wisely , saie we , if ye tried , and examined your Doctrine , which ye pretende to be according vnto the Scriptures , by the * * The tradit 〈◊〉 , nowe vsed in the Romaine Churche , are co●●only contrarie to the Traditions of the Anciente Learned Fathers . Therefore this Rule is deceitetul . rule of Ecclesiastical Tradition , which is the chiefe rule to trie euery Doctrine by .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée neuer despised the iudgemente of the Learned , and Holy Fathers : but rather take them , and embrace them , as the Witnesses of Goddes Truthe . And therein wée finde you the more blame woorthy , M. Hardinge , for that , hauinge without cause renounced the iudgemente , and orders of the Primitiue Churche , and Anciente Fathers , as to the wise , and Learned it maie soone appeare , yet neuerthelesse yée euermore make vaunte of your Antiquitie , and fraie the world with a visarde of the Churche , & a shewe of Olde Fathers : as if a poore Sommonere , that had loste his Commission , would serue Citations by the vertue of his emptie bore . And thus haue ye set al your vaine fantasies in place of Goddes Churche : and your Churche , in place of God : as , by the woordes , and witnesse of your owne Felowes , I haue before shewed more at large . Parte . 5. Ca 10. Diui 2. Nic. Cusanus de Authoritate Ecclisiae . &c. Hierem 2. For example , Cardinal Cusanus saith , Nulla sunt Christi Praecepta , nisi quae per Ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt : The Commaundementes of Christe are no Commaundementes , Onlesse they be so allowed by the Churche .

Thus yée leaue Iuppiter , and renne to Apollo : or rather , yée foresake God , & séeke to Man : & , as it is written in the Prophete Hieremie , Yee leaue the Fountaine of the Water of Life : and rippe vp broken , and filthy Cesternes , that can holde no Water . Tertullian thus vpbraideth the Heathens , Tertullian in Apologetico . Clemens Alexandrin in Oratione ad Genies . Chryso . in Epist. ad Galat. Ca. 1. Apud vos de humano arbitratu Diuinitas pensitatur : Emonge you the right of God is weighed by the iudgemente of menne . But Clemens Alexandrinus saithe , Quoniam ipsum Verbum ad nos venit de Coelo , non est nobis ampliùs eundum ad Humanam Doctrinam : For so mutche as the Worde it selfe , ( that is , Christe ) is comme to vs from Heauen , wee maie not nowe any more seeke vnto the Doctrine of Man . Likewise S. Chrysostome saithe , Fuisset extremae absurditatis , eum , qui edoctus fuerat à Deo , postea cum hominibus communicate : It had benne greate folie for S. Paule , hauing receiued his Doctrine from God him selfe , afterward to conferre thereof with menne , that is to saie , with Peter , or Iames , or with any others .

The Apologie , Cap. 1. Diuision . 3.

Why , I beseche you , except a Councel wil , and commaunde , shal not Truthe be Truthe , or God be God ? If Christe had meante to doo so from the beginninge , as that he woulde preache , or teache nothinge , without the Bishoppes consente , but referre al this Doctrine ouer to Annas , & Caiphas , where shoulde nowe haue benne the Christian Faithe ? Or , who at any time shoulde haue hearde the Gospel taught ? Peter verily , whom the Pope hath oftener in his mouthe , & more reuerently vseth to speake of , then he dooth of Iesus Christe , did boldely stand against the Holy Councel , saieing , It is better to obey God , then Men. And , after that Paule had once entierely embraced the Gospel , & had receiued it , not from menne , nor by man , but by the onely Wil of God , he did not take aduise therein of fleash , & bloude , nor brought his case before his kinnesmen , and Brethren , but wente foorthewith into Arabia , to preache Goddes Diuine Mysteries , by Goddes onely Authoritie .

M. Hardinge .

If you occupie a flute no better , by my reade , you shal geue ouer your pipinge and floutinge . Truthe is truthe , and God is God , whether any councel wil or nil . Mary , as for the Truthe , and for God , euery councel lawfully assembled hath wil : so againste the Truth and against God , it hath no nil . When ye proue vnto vs , that ye are specially called , as Paule was , and haue a special commission ‡ ‡ Wee preache againste your folies , and fantasies : & not againste the Doctrine of the Churche . to preache againste the Doctrine of the Churche , as he had againste the wicked Iewes , then a Gods name take no aduise of any man , but forthwith preache , and crieout so lowde as ye liste , so that ye goe into Arabia , as Paule did , or where els so euer ye wil. For euery good man would be lothe , England should be troubled with you .

The Apologie , Cap. 2. Diuision . 1.

Yet truely , we doo not despise Councelles , Assemblies , and conferences of Bishoppes , and Learned menne : neither haue we donne , that we haue donne , altogeather without Bishoppes , or without a Councel . The matter hath benne treated in open Parlamente , with longe consultation , and before a notable Synode , and Conuocation .

M. Hardinge .

Either your tonge agreeth not with your harte , or els I wil proue the contrarie by your owne argumentes , which in the nexte Paragraphe before this ye haue huddeled vp . For whereas your matters are ( as ye ordinarily saie ) euident by plaine scripture , and the Woorde of God is readen of euery man ( without distinction and limitation ) therefore ye do firste of al plaie as fonde a parte , as Kinge Agesilaus did , who receiuinge an answeare of mighty Iupiter , woulde afterwarde bringe the matter before Apollo . Yea furthermore , ye do mutche more fondely then he , if when ye maie heare God him selfe speake plainely to you in the moste holy scriptures , ye woulde bringe the whole cause to be tried by a Councel .

Howe saie ye then nowe , are not these your owne proper reasons , &c. your foresaid worshipful reasons , & c ? If ye meane ( as by reason ye muste ) the Parlamentes of these later daies , the firste of al did make moste for you : and yet how open was it for you ? Had ye any place at al in it ? Were ye admitted within the dores ? Or had ye any thing to do in that assemblie ? Consider them with what consult ation your purposes were concluded . Did they tarie many monethes about it ? Had they Bishops ? * * Vntruthe enclosed . For they had Diuines : & a solemne Disputation was appointed at Weasteminster in the presence of the States of the Realme But your Felowes fladde from it . Had they Diuines and the moste lerned , to reason to and fro with al libertie ? Was the Authoritie of the Vniuersal Churche of Christe , and the Doctrine of the Aunciente Fathers considered ? Ye saie in Latine , plenis Comitijs , that is , in the ful and whole assemblie , as though none at al had there resisted , but euery man had yelded to your matters . What saie ye then of the spiritual lordes , a greate parte of the parlamente , and without al doubt , the parte , whiche muste be chiefely and onely regarded , when the question is of religion ? How many of them gaue you their voice to your Gospel ? Yea , which of them al did not resist it ? One alone , I muste confesse , was afterwarde made to breake vnitie , of whom a right good , and Catholike Bishop saide to a noble man , we had but one foole among vs , and him ye haue gotten vnto you . But as of the spiritual Lordes ye had none at al ( except that one , litle woorthy of the name of a Bishop and lorde , whose lerninge was smal , and honoure thereby mutche steined ) so of the temporal ye had not al : and so had ye also in the lower howse very many , and wel learned , that speake againste you .

But let vs consider the notable conuocation , in whiche your matter hath ben treated . If ye meane the cleregie comminge togeather at that first parlament time , of whiche we speake , it was of Catholikes , not of Sacramentaries , Parlamente . and it put vp a bill againste your procedinges : so farre it was of from confirminge them . If ye meane any since that time , in whiche your superintendentships mette togeather , for what cause was it a notable Synode , and a notable conuocation ?

Ye be desperate in your lieinge , and crake of a full Parlament , and a notable Synode , not regardinge by what meanes ye promote your cause to the multitude , and saue your selues from reproche of extreme folie . For otherwise ye , whiche can so amplifie the small and obscure meetinges of a fewe Caluintstes of one litle Iland , what would ye not saie of the laste generall Councell , to whiche more Nations were assembled togeather , then are shyres in Englande : more yeeres were bestowed in consultation , then weekes in your full Parlament : * * A notable great companie . There were onely fouretie poore Bishoppes : and yet somme of the samewere no Bishoppes . more Bishoppes defined and subscribed , then were Ministers of all sortes in your notable Synode by many partes .

Lastly if they will needes haue their matters seeme to depende of their Parlament , let vs not be blamed , if wee call it Parlament Religion , Parlament Gospell , Parlamente Faithe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée wil not discusse the Right , & Interest of the Parlamentes of Englande . As mutche , as concerneth Goddes euerlastinge Truthe , wee holde not by Parlamente , but by God . Parlamentes are vncertaine , & often contrarie , as wée haue séene . But Goddes Truthe is one , and certaine , & neuer changeth . The thinges , that were so suddainely , and so violently shaken downe in the late time of Queene Marie , are now , of Goddes greate mercie , by oure moste Noble , and Gratious Lady Queene Elizabeth , aduisedly , and soberly reared vp againe , that thei maie the more firmely continewe , and stande the better . What so euer wante , yée imagine , was in that Parlamente , for as mutche , as wée were no parte thereof , I truste , wee maie the more easily be excused . How be it , so scornefully disdeigninge the whole State of so Noble a Realme , yée shal hardely winne the opinion , either of Sobrietie , or of greate Wisedome .

But your Bishoppes , yée saie , withstoode vs : and your Brethren in the Conuocation promoted a bille againste oure Doctrine . I know , M. Hardinge , they subscribed then againste vs with the very same handes , with whiche , not longe before , they had openly protested , and solemnely sworne againste the Pope : & with whiche they haue sithence receiued , and embraced our whole Religion , to the vtter condemnation of al your folies .

Onely one foole , yée saie , yee had emongest all your Bishoppes : And he was soone gotten to comme to vs . Happy were they , M. Hardinge , that had but one foole in so greate a companie . If somme of your Louanian Cleregie had then benne Bishoppes , I thinke , they might haue benne sommewhat better stoared . Notwithstandinge , it was not wel donne , of your parte , so vnciuilely to calle your Brother foole . Al the reste of your Brethren , very fewe excepted , haue donne the like . Yet fooles , I trowe , yee wil not calle them : lest happily your owne wittes be called in question .

Where yée would séeme to saie , that the Parlamente holden in the firste yéere of the Queenes Maiesties Reigne , was no Parlamente , for that your Bishoppes refused wilfully , to agree vnto the Godly Lawes there concluded , ye seeme therein to bewraie in your selfe somme wante of skille . The wise , and learned coulde soone haue tolde you , that in the Parlamentes of Englande , maters haue euermore vsed to passe , not of necessitie , by the special consente of the Archebishoppes , and Bishoppes , as if without them no Statute might lawfully be enacted : but onely by the more parte of the voices , yea although al the Archebishoppes , and Bishoppes were neuer so earnestly bente againste it . And Statutes , so passinge in Parlamente , onely by the voices of the Lordes Temporal , without the consente , and agreemente of the Lordes Spiritual , haue neuerthelesse alwaies benne confirmed , and ratified by the Real assente of the Prince , and haue benne enacted , & published vnder the names of the Lordes Spiritual , Parlamente . and Temporal .

Reade the Statutes of Kinge Idwarde the Firste . There shal yee finde , that in a Parlamente solemnely holden by him at S. Edmundes Burie , the Archebishoppes , and Bishoppes were quite shutte foorthe . And yet the Parlamente helde on , & good , and wholesome Lawes were there enacted , the departinge , or absence , or malice of the Lordes Spiritual notwithstandinge . In the Recordes thereof it is written thus , An. Dom. 1296. Habito Rex cum suis Baronibus Parlamento , & Clero excuso , Statutum est , &c. The Kinge , keepinge the Parlamente with his Barons , the Cleregie , ( that is to saie , the Archebishoppes , & Bishoppes ) beinge shutte foorthe , it was enacted , &c.

Likewise , Anno 1273. In Prouisione de Martonae , Ca. 9. In Prouisione de Martona , in the time of Kinge Henry the thirde , whereas mater was moued of Bastardie , touchinge the Legitimation of Bastardes borne before Marriage , the Statute paste wholy with the Lordes Temporal , whether the Lordes Spiritual woulde , or no : Yea , and that contrarie to the expresse Decrees , Extra . Qui Filj sint Legitimi . and Canons of the Churche of Rome . The like hereof , as I am enfourmed , maie be founde , Richardi . 2. An. 11. Ca. 3. How be it , in these cases , I must confesse , I walke sommewhat without my compasse . Touchinge the Iudgemente hereof , I referre mee selfe wholy vnto the Learned .

Further , whereas ye calle the Doctrine of Christe , that now by Goddes great Mercie , and to your greate griefe is Vniuersally , and freely Preached , a Parlamente Religion , and a Parlamente Gospel , ( for sutche sobrietie becommeth you wel , and maie stande you in steede , when learninge faileth ) yee mighte haue remembred , that Christe him selfe , at the beginninge , was Vniuersally receiued , and honoured through this Realme , by assente of Parlamente : and further , that without Parlamente , your Pope him selfe was neuer receiued , no not in the laie time of Ouéene Marie . Yea , & euen then , his Holinesse was clogged with Parlamente Conditions , that , what so euer had benne determined in Parlamente , and was not repealed , were it neuer so contrarie to his wil , and Canons , should remaine stil inuiolable , and stande in force . Otherwise , his Holinesse had gonne home againe . Sutche , M. Hardinge , is the Authoritie of a Parlamente . Verily , if Parlamentes of Realmes be no Parlamentes , then wil your Pope be no Pope . Therefore with like Sabrietie , & grauitie of speache , yee mighte haue saide , Oure Fathers in olde times had a Parlamente Christe : And your late Fathers , and Brethren had a Parlamente Faithe , a Parlamente Masse , and a Parlamente Pope .

Neither is it so strange a mater , to see Ecclesiastical Causes debated in Parlamente . Reade the Lawes of Kinge Inas , Kinge Elfrede , Kinge Edwarde , Kinge Ethelstane , Leges Canuti . Kinge Edmunde , Kinge Edgare , Kinge Canute : And ye shal finde , that our godly Forefathers , the Princes , and Peeres of this Realme , neuer vouchesaued to entreate of maters of Peace , or Warre , or otherwise touchinge the Common state , before al controuersies of Religion , and Causes Ecclesiastical had benne concluded . Kinge Canute in his Parlamente , holden at Winchester vpon Christemasse daie , after sundrie Lawes , and Orders made , Touchinge the Faithe , the keepinge of Holy Daies , Publique Praiers , learninge of the Lordes Praier , Receiuinge of the Communion thrise in the yeere , the manner , and fourme of Baptisme , Fastinge , and other like maters of Religion , in the ende thereof saithe thus , I am sequitur Institutio legum Saecularium : Now foloweth an order for Temporal Lawes .

Thus wee see , that the godly Catholique Princes in Olde times , thought it their duetie , before al other affaires of the Common Weale , firste to determine maters of Religion , and that euen by the Parlamentes of this Realme .

In a Parlamente holden by Kinge William the Conqueroure it is written thus : Tridentine councel . Superintendentes . Rex , quia Vicarius Summi Regis est , ad hoc constituitur , vt Regnum , & populum Domini , & super omnia , Sanctam Ecclesiam , Regar , & defendat , &c. The Kinge , for as mutche as he is the Vicare of the Highest Kinge , is therefore appointed to this pourpose , that he shoulde Rule , and defende the Kingedome , and People of the Lorde , & aboue al thinges the Holy Churche , &c. Hereby it appeareth , that Kinges , and Princes are specially , and of pourpose appointed by God , not onely to defende , but also to Gouerne , and Rule the Holy Churche .

How he it , wee geue God thankes for the same , that is : and truste , that , for his owne names sake , he wil confirme , that he hath begonne . The hartes of Princes , and Determinations of Parlamentes are in his hande . If any thinge wante , the Arme of the Lorde is not shortened : He is hable to supplie the same .

Yee magnifie mutche your late Chapter of Tridente , Concil. Trident. Sub Carolo Quinto . whiche you woulde so faine haue called a General Councel : with so many Nations : so many Bishoppes : so many yeeres of Consultation . Yet notwithstandinge of al these so many , and so many Nations , and Countries , if it maie please you to sit downe , & to take the accoumpte , yee shal finde there were onely poore fourtie Bishoppes , and certaine of the same , ( as Richarde Pates , the Bishop of Woorcester , and Blinde sir Roberte , Robert . Coecus . vide Concil. Trident . sub Paulo . 3 Matthias Plac. Illyricus in Protest . contra Concil. Trident. Pagin . 79. the Archebishop of Armach ) that onely had the bare titles of Bishoprikes , and in deede were no Bishoppes . Twoo others of your saide so many , and so Notable Learned , & Holy Bishoppes , beinge at your saide woorthy Councel , were euen there killed in Aduouterie : y● one striken downe with a Clubbe : the other taken in the manoure by the Husbande , & hanged by the necke , out of a greate Lucane windowe , into the streete . For these , and other causes , Henry the Frenche ●nge openly , by his Embassadoure , protested againste the same Councel in the presence of al your so many , and so many Bishoppes there , and saide , Io Sle●danus , Li. 23. Anno. 1551. It was not a Councel General , but a Priuate Couente , or Assemblie of a fewe certaine people summoned togeather for gaines sake .

Now , Conuentus quorundam Priuatus vtilitatis gratia institut●es . whereas it hath pleased you , as wel here , as els where , to sporte your selfe with Superintendentes , and Superintendentshippes , and to refreashe your wittes with so vaine a fansie of your owne , if yee had benne so deepely traueiled in the Doctoures , Newe , or Olde , as ye beare vs in hande , yee mighte easily haue knowen , that a Superintendente , is an Anciente name , and signifieth none other , Augustin . De Ciuit . Li. 19 Ca. 19. Augustin . in Psalm . 126. but a Bishop . S. Augustine saithe , Vocabulum Episcopatus inde ductum est , quo'd ille , qui praeficitur , eis , quibus praeficitur , Superintendit . Ergo , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Latinè dicere possumus Superintendere . Againe he saithe , Quod Graecè dicitur , Episcopus , hoc Latinè , Superintentor , interpretatur . Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . 1. ad Timoth. Hom 10. Hieronym . Ad ●uagrium . Anselm ad Philippen . Ca. 1. Beda . 1. Petri. 2. Petrus de Palude , De Potest . Colla. Apostolis , Arti. 1. Episcopus ex eo dicitur , quo'd omnes inspiciat . S. Hierome saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , id est , Superintendentes . Anselimus saithe , Episcopus Latinè Superintendens dicitur . Beda likewise saithe , Episcopus Latinè Superintendens dicitur . Petrus de Palude saithe , Episcopus dicitur Superintendens : Et Petrus fuit Superintendens toti Mundo : Peter was the Superintendente of the whole Worlde . Your owne Thomas of Aquine saith , Episcopi dicuntur ex eo , quòd Superintendunt . Therefore , M. Hardinge , if Modestie moue you not , yet at leaste for your grauities sake , leaue plaieinge with these vaine , and childishe folies . The Bishoppes of Englande haue this daie , not onely the same Name , but also the same roume , and Authoritie , and Iurisdiction , that other Bishoppes haue euer had before . Thom. 2. 2. quae. 184. Ar. 6.

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 1.

But , touchinge this Councel , whiche is nowe sommoned by Pope Pius , wherein menne so lightly are condemned , beinge neither called , Al soares salued by the Councel of Tridente . nor hearde , nor seene , it is easy to gheasse , what we maie looke for , or hope of it .

M. Hardinge .

The Generall Councell of Trente is now at length by Gods speciall fauour concluded and ended . What haue ye to saie to it ? Forbeare your accustomed lyinge , what haue ye to saie to it ? For * * Vntruthes open , and without same . For example , your Stewes , your Courteghianes , and Fornications were neuer touched . matters of Faithe , what is not sounde and true ? For * maners , what sore lacketh due salue ? For * discipline , what disorder hath not holesome restrainctes and punishmentes ? What defectes be not prouidently considered , how to be supplied ? What abuses be not required to be taken a waie , as farre , as mans wiste coulde deuise , and the weakenesse of the presente age can beare ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Al this mater is fully answeared by What , and by What . What mater of Faithe ? What manners ? What disorder ? What defectes ? What Abuses ? But al these whattes notwithstanding , what if your Pope , your Cardinalles , and your Cleregie , with the whole disorder of your Romaine Churche , with so many Priestes keepinge Concubines , with so many Non Residentes , with so many Doumbe Bishoppes , and with so many thousandes of common Harlottes , be in case now , euen as they were before ? Wil yée telle vs neuerthelesse , that al your soares be sufficiently salued ? Or , muste wée beleue , that your keepinge of Concubines , your open Stewes , and Fornications &c. be no soares ? Verily , S. Bernarde saithe , Bernard . in Cantica . Sermo . 33. Hulcote in Lib. Sapien. Lectio . 23 Bernard . in Conuers . Pauli . Bapt. Mantuan . Fastor . Lib. 4. Ad Leonem . 10. Concil. Trident. as it is alleged before , Intestina , & insanabilis est plaga Ecclesiae : The wounde of the Churche bleedeth inwardely , and is past cure : And againe , A planta pedis , vsque ad verticem Capitis non est in ea sanitas : There is no whole parte in the Churche from the sole of the foote , to the toppe of the Heade . Baptista Mantuanus saith , Aegrotatqúe Fides iam proxima morti : The Faithe of the Romaine Churche is sicke , and almoste deade .

In your Olde Latine Translation of the Bible , there be sundrie errours , so open , and so grosse , that a very Babe maie soone espie them : as it maie more plainely appeare by Budaeus , Erasmus , Valla , Faber , Lindanus , and others . Yet , that notwithstandinge , your Councel saithe precisely thus , Ne quis Veterem vulgaram Editionem reijcere quouis praetextu audeat , vel praesumat : Lette no man dare , or presume by any manner of coloure , to refuse the Olde Common Translation of the Bible : As if your Councelles were yourposely summoned , to mainteine errours . If yee wil so wilfully deceiue vs in sensible maters , how maie wée then truste you in maters of Faithe ?

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 2.

In times past , when Nazianzene sawe in his daies , how menne in sutche Assemblies were so blinde , and wilful , that they were carried with affections , Nazian. ad Procopium . and laboured more to geate the victorie , then the Truthe , he pronounced openly , that he neuer had seene a good ende of any Councel . What would he saie nowe , if he were aliue at this daie , and vnderstoode the heauinge , & shouinge of these menne ? For at that time , though the matter were laboured on al sides , yet the controuersies were wel hearde , and open errours were put cleane awaie by the general voice of al partes : But these menne wil neither haue the case to be freely disputed , nor yet how many errours soeuer there be , suffer they any to be changed . For it is a common custome of theirs , often , and shamelesly to boaste , that their Churche cannot erre , that in it there is no faulte , & that they muste geeue place to vs in nothinge . Or , if there be any faulte , yet muste it be tried by their Bishoppes , and Abbates onely , bicause they be the Directours , and Rulers of maters : for that they be the Churche of God . Aristotle saithe , that a cittie cannot consiste of Bastardes : but whether the churche of God maie consiste of these menne ▪ lette them selues consider . For doubtelesse , neither be theire Abbates , Abbates in deede , nor their Bishoppes natural right Bishoppes .

M. Hardinge .

Gregorie Nazianzene in his Epistle to Procopius saithe thus : I refuse to come to whatsoeuer Councell of Bishoppes . Because I coulde neuer yet to this daie see the ende of any Councell ende wed with any profite , and after whiche , thinges amisse were not rather made more greuous , then healed . Nazianzene in that Epistle spake of * * Vntruthe . For he speaketh of al manner of Councelles , as wel General , as Prouincial : His woordes be , Prorsus decreui fugere Omnem Conuentum Episcoporum . prouinciall Councelles , specially those that were holden in his troublesome times , where most commonly Heretikes through fauour of their deceiued Princes bare the swea . Whiche in matters of Faithe coulde hardely then obteine any credite amonge the Catholikes , onlesse they had benne confirmed by the auctoritie of the Bishop of Rome : of whiche sorte at that age were fewe . Those other Nazianzene had experience of , of these he had not . Albeit in deede the vtilitie of the Nicence Councell in his time , that is to saie , within so fewe yeeres after the same was holden , was not yet thoroughly espied , and fully knowen abroade . Neither would he , if he were aliue at this daie , reproue the Holy generall Councell of Trente , as ye doo . For why shoulde he ?

‡ ‡ This is a lusty kinde of Diuinitie . And how shamelesse be ye , to require vs , to yelde and geue place vnto you ? Who made you iudges ouer vs ? ‡ Who gaue you commission ? Where is your warrant ?

What neede ye to shewe your malice so muche at Bishoppes , and Abbattes ? Whiche of them hurteth you ? Haue ye not in prison , or in custody * * Vntruthe . For they are committed onely by the appointemente of the Prince . at your appointement all the Bishoppes of England , one Apostata yet liuinge excepted , which after sundry flightes and changinge of cotes , is fledde from the tentes of the Churche to your scattered troupes ? The Abbottes , haue ye not driuen them awaie ? Be ye yet a fraide of their shadowes ? As by Aristotle a Cittie can not consiste of Bastardes , nomore can the Churche of Englande consiste of suche Bastarde Bishoppes , as ye be : what number of Abbottes ye haue lefte in Cloisters , suche number of true Bishoppes haue yee lefte in Churches . One muste I still except , who is a true Bishop by consecration ( as I vnderstande ) though a false man by Apostasie , and goinge from his Faithe , and from his Religion .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Touchinge the vnlucky successe of Councelles , the Ancient Father Nazianzene saithe thus , Gregor. Nazianzenus ad Procopium . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Equidem , vt verè , quod res est , scribam , prorsus decreui fugere Omnem Conuentum Episcoporum . Nullius enim concilij bonum exitum vnquam vidi . Concilia enim non minuunt mala , sed augent potiùs : To saie the truthe , I am vtterly determined neuer to comme to any Councel of Bishoppes . For I neuer yet sawe good ende of any Councel . For Councelles abate not il thinges , but rather increase them . These woordes thus vttered , whether they be vniuersally true , or otherwise , I wil not reason . It maie seeme hereby , this Learned Father , for his time , by experience founde them true . And for ought , that maie appeare to the contrarie , notwithstandinge any thinge conteined in your Glose , he seemeth to vtter the same , as wel of General Councelles , as of Prouincial .

Certainely after the Greate General Councel of Nice , the Arian Heretiques waxed moe , and more mighty , then euer they had benne before . The Emperours Constantius , and Valens , with their Wiues , and Courtes became Arians . Constantinus the Greate him selfe was also doubted to be an Arian . The successe of councels . Monkes , and Abbates . Liberius the Bishop of Rome , and Hosius that famous Learned Bishop of Spaine , gaue their handes vnto the Arians . Tenne seueral sundrie Prouincial councelles gaue their voices with the Arians . S. Hierome saithe , Ingemuit totus Orbis , & Arianum se esse miratus est : The whole wordle beganne to groane , and marueiled , that it had taken parte with the Arians . Therefore Nazianzene saithe , He neuer sawe Councel , Sozomenus . Hieronym . Aduersus Luciferianos . nor Prouincial , nor General , that ended wel : for that , as one saithe , The greater side oftentimes ouer weigheth the better . Euen so saide the Frenche Kinges Embassadoure , in the behalfe of his Prince , in your Chapter at Tridente : Nostra , Patrumqúe nostrorum , & Auorum memoria , Synodos indictas fuisse , Episcopos conuenisse , Tit. Liuius . Maior pars vincit meliorem . maximos in Germania , atque Italia Conuentus peractos esse , scimus . Vix tamen vllus , aut perexiguus inde fructus Christianitati constirit : Wee knowe , that bothe in our Grandfathers , and Fathers , and oure owne time , Councelles haue benne summoned , Oratio Synodica Legati Regis Franciae . An. 1562. Bishoppes haue mette togeather , greate and solemne Assemblies haue benne keapte , as wel in Germanie , as in Italie : yet scarcely any good at al , or very litle good came thereof to the state of Christendome .

Concerninge Abbates , and Monasteries , wee haue saide before . Wée haue as many Abbates in Englande this daie , as either Christe euer had , or his Apostles . Notwithstandinge one of your Learned felowes of Louaine , for the good wil he beareth to that Religion , Copus . Fol. 284. telleth vs , that the Apostles were Monkes , & Christe himselfe was the Abbate . The Abbates , and Monkes , that were in olde times , were menne geuen to Studie , August . Epist 81. August . Epist. 76 and Learninge . And out of Monasteries learned menne were then taken , as out of Schooles , and Vniuersities , to the rule , and gouernemente of the Churche . But your Abbates nowe are as mutche like those Abbates , as your Churche is like the Primitiue Churche of Christe .

Erasmus saithe , Erasm . in Scholijs in Epistolam ad Rusticum Monachum . Haud scio , an nunc magis expediret Ecclesiae Christianae , si pauciora essent Monasteria , essetque omnium idem Cultus , eaedemque preces , eademque vitae ratio : I knowe not whether it were better for the Churche of Christe , that there were fewer Monasteries : and that al menne had one Seruice of God , one kinde of Praier , and one order of Life .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 3.

But graunte , they be the Churche : let them be hearde speake in Councelles : let them alone haue authoritie , to geeue consente : yet in olde time , when the Churche of God ( if ye wil compare it with their Churche ) was very wel gouerned , bothe Elders , and Deacons , as saithe Cyprian , and certaine also of the Common People were called thereunto , and made acquainted with Ecclesiastical maters .

M. Hardinge .

Ah Syrs , woulde ye haue the common people come to the Generall Councell ? Whom meane ye , I praie you ? Tinkers and Tapsters . fydlers and Pypers , suche as your ministers be ? Alas poore soules . what should they doo there ? For there is no tinking nor tipplinge , no fidlinge nor Pypinge . There may they shutte vp bothe budgets and mouthes . For neither can they speake in suche an audience to be vnderstanded , nor can they vnderstande , what is spoken . Looke in your Bookes better , and you shall finde Cyprian to make litle for your purpose .

Had your mater benne good , it might haue benne defended without lies . Beinge as it is , altogeather beside Truthe and reason , for some colour of mainetenance of the same , ye passe all measure in lieinge . Where saithe S. Cyprian that certaine of the common people were called to Ecclesiasticall Councelles ? Yea , specially where saithe he , ‡ ‡ S. Cyprians woordes be plaine , Nihil sine consensu plebis , &c. Lib. 3. Epist. 10. that the common people were made iudges of Ecclesiasticall matters , Priestes vnlearned . for so hath your Latine , whiche not without guile your Lady interpreter commonly tourneth , were made acquainted with Eclcesiasticall matters ? If you had meante true dealinge . Defender , you would haue quoted the place : but you knewe thereby your falsehead shoulde haue benne espied . ‡ ‡ Your 〈◊〉 deceiueth 〈◊〉 It is not there . The place whiche you meane , doubtles is in the seconde tome of S. Cyprians woorkes , where we finde the sentences of the Bishoppes of Aphrike , De Haereticis Baptizandis : Whiche proueth your straunge saieinge , by you fathered vpon that holy Martyr , nothinge at al. The woordes be these , Cùm in vnum Carthagini conuenissent , &c. When many Bishoppes in the firste daie of September were assembled together at Carthage , out of the prouince of Aphrike , Numidia , Mauritanta , with their Priestes , and Deacons , the most parte of the people also beinge presente &c.

Now what can you gather out of them for your pourpose more , but that a greate number of the people were presente onely in the Churche , or other place , where the Bishoppes were assembled ? That certaine of the common people were called to this Councell , there is no suche woorde mentioned , nor by Cyprian , nor by any els . * * Vntruthes , boldely auouched . Reade the A●iweare . Neither were the Priestes them selues ( which this youthfull Gentil woman interpreteth Elders ) and Deacons * called thither , but they * attended vpon the Bishoppes , as in such case it hath benne accustomed : for sentence none might geue , in any Councell , but * onely Bishoppes . Then howe muche lesse were the common people called to that Councell , specially to sitte as Iudges in Ecclesiasticall matters ? Mary , that you woulde so haue it , I thinke well . For suche confusion mighte best serue you to procure the ouerthrowe of good order , in whiche the Churche is gouerned : whiche if it be maineteined duely , your disordered and rebellious state will soone be confounded .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Your Tinkers , and Tapsters , M. Hardinge , are ashamed in your behalfe , to sée your folie . A poore seely iester , to winne his dinner , woulde be lothe to scoffe so coldely . Certaine of our Cleregie wante the knowlege of Rhetorique , Logique , Philosophie , the Hebrewe , the Greeke , and the Latine tongues : Therefore yée calle them Tinkers , and Tapsters . Sutche is the Sobrietie , and Modestie of your talke . Of what Schoole , or tongue then are your Priestes , M. Hardinge , that , for the more parte , can neither Speake Latine , nor Reade Englishe , nor vnderstande the Articles of their Faithe , nor any portion of the Scriptures : Clowdes without Raine : Lanternes without Lighte : Salte without sauoure : Blinde guides : Dombe Dogges : that , as one saithe , séeme to haue their soules geuen them in stéede of salte , to kéepe them from stinkinge ? Of what Arte , or Occupation was he , De Con. Dist. 4 Retulerunt . Iulius . pp. 2. Alphon. Lib. 1. Cap. 4. that Baptized a childe in Latine , in this sorte , In nomine Patria , & Filia , & Spirita Sancta ? What a skilful Clerke was your Pope Iulius . 2. that assigninge a warrante , in stéede of Fiat , wrote , Fiatur ? Your owne Doctour , Alphonsus de Castro , saith , Constat plures Papas adeo ' illiteratos esse , vt Grammaticam penit ùs ignorent : It is moste certaine , that many Popes be so vnlearned , that they be vtterly ignorante of their Grammar . And , beinge vtterly ignorant of their Grammare Rules , I beseche you , for what other profounde science of Logique , or Philosophi● , Felinus , de Rescriptis . Si quan● do . can yée praise them ? An other of your Doctoures saithe , Papa propter defectum literaturae non potest deponi : The Pope maie not be deposed for lacke of Learninge . That is to saie , the Pope , though he be neuer so ignorante , or voide of knowledge , yet is as good a Pope , as the beste .

An other of your Doctours saith , Aureum Speculum , In Antilogia . Venalitate Curiae Romanae , inaniter praeficiuntur Lenones , Coqui , Stabularij equorum , & Pueri : Through the bribene of the Courte of Rome , Baudes , Cookes , Hostlers , and Children be placed in Offices to gouerne the Churche . Shal wee therefore saie , as you saie , that al your Priestes be Fidlers , and Pipers , Tinkers , and Tapsters ?

Somme certaine of oure Cleregie be ignorante in the tongues , as yours be : but not ignorante in knowledge , 2. Corin. 11. as yours be . The woorste of them seeth , & lamenteth your wilful ignorance . Priestes vnlearned . S. Augustine saithe , Multò minùs malum est , indoctum esse , August . contra Academic . Li. 3. Ca. 7. quàm indocilem : Leasse hurte is it , to be vnlearned , then to be wilful , and vnapte to learne . Irenaeus saithe , Melius est , & vtilius , idiotas , & parum scientes existere , Irenae . Lib. 2. Ca. 45. & per Charitatem proximos Deo fieri , quàm putare se multum scire , & multa expertos , in suum Deum blasphemos inueniri : Better is it a greate deale , for menne to be ignorante , and to knowe but litle , and by loue to drawe neare to God , then to thinke them selues to knowe mutche , and to haue greate experience , and yet to be founde blasphemers againste God .

S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . De Fide , Li. 1. Cap. 3. Non in Dialectica complacuit Deo , saluum facere populum suum . Regnum enim Dei in simplicitate Fidei est , non in contentione Sermonis : It pleased not God , by Logique to saue his people : For the Kingedome of God standeth not in contention of talke , Ambros . De Incarnatione Domini . Ca. 9. but in simplicitie of Faithe . Likewise he saith , Verba Philosophorum excludit simplex Veritas Piscatorum : The simple plaine Faithe of Fishers confoundeth the woordes of the learned Philosophers . The Ancient Father Origen saithe , Sapientes huius saeculi , Origen . in Cantica , Homili . 4. videntes absque Arte Grammatica , & peritia Philosophica consurgere muros Euangelij , v●lut cum irrisione quadam dicunt , perfacilé hoc posse destrui calliditate Sermonum , per astutas fallacias , & Argumenta Dialectica : The wise menne of this world , seeinge the walles of the Gospel to rise vp without Grammare , and profounde knowledge in Philosophie , saie scornefully emongest them selues , that al this by suttletie of speache , and crafty shiftes , and Logical Argumentes , maie ful easily be shaken downe .

It appeareth by the Councelles of Carthage , Conci . Carthag . 3. Can. 19. Et Concil. Hippon . and Hippo Regius , that in olde times Children vnder fouretene yeeres of age were admitted to be Readers in the Churche : and , notwithstandinge either theire age , or wante of learninge , the people was wel contented , with silence , and reuerence to geue eare vnto them .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysostom . in Genes. Homi. 44. in humanis negotijs , quando Rex Diademate coronatus , &c. Euen in worldly affaires , when the Kinge sendeth soorthe his Proclamations , the Currer , or pourseuante is oftentimes a man of smal accoumpte , and sommetime so base , that he neuer knewe his owne Father , or Grandefather . But they that receiue the Proclamation , haue no regarde vnto him , that brought it : notwithstandinge , in respecte of the Kinges letters , that he brought , they geue him honoure , and with silence , and reuerence geue attendance to the Proclamation .

These simple vnlearned ones , whome you so disdainefully despise , shal rise vp in the daie of our Lorde , and condemne you with al your knowledge . God is hable to make the poore Asse to speake , Numer . 22. Hieronym . in Psalm . 82. to controlle blinde Balaams wilful pourposes . S. Hierome saithe , Paulus , qui Soloecismos facit in loquendo , Christi Crucem portat , & , quasi triumphans , omnes capit : Totum Orbem subegit , ab Oceano vsque ad Mare Rubrum : Paule , that is not hable to vtter his minde in congrue speache , beareth the Croise of Christe , and taketh al menne Prisoners , as if it were in triumphe : from the Occean vnto the Redde Sea , he subdewed the whole worlde . Likewise S. Ambrose saithe , Non quaero , Ambrosi . Ad Grattanum de Fide , Lib. 1. Ca. 5. quid loquantur Philosophi : requiro quid faciant . Soli in suis Gymnasijs remanserunt . Vide , quàm Fides Argumentis praeponderet . Illi quotidiè à suis consortibus deseruntur , qui copiosé disputant : Isti quotidiè crescunt , qui simpliciter credunt . Non creditur Philosophis : Creditur Piscatoribus : I demaunde not , what these greate learned Philosophers saie , but what they doo . They are foresaken , and leafte alone in theire Schooles . Beholde , howe mutche more weight there is in Faithe , then in Argumentes . They with theire profounde Reasons are daiely foresaken of theire felowes : These with their Simple Faithe goe forewarde , and encrease daily . Menne beleeue not the learned Philosophers : They beleeue vnlearned Fishers .

Priestes , yee saie , this youtheful Gentlewooman interpreteth Elders . OM. Hardinge , litle needeth the godly Learned , & vertuous Lady , to feare your so vumanly , and childishe toies . If yee had benne either so sagely studied , as ye pretende , & your frendes have thought , have Priestes , Deacons , and Laie menne in councelles . yée might soone haue learned , that Presbyter , a Prieste , is nothinge els , but Senior , that is , an Elder . And therefore , whereas S. Paule saithe , Aduersus Presbyterum accusationem ne admiseris : S. Cyprian translatinge the same , saith thus , Aduersus Maiorem natu accusationem ne receperis . Your owne Doctoure Thomas Aquin●s saith , Presbyteri in Graeco dicuntur , quasi Seniores . 1. Timoth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Your owne Gratian saithe , Presbyter Graecé , Latinè Senior interpretatur . S. Hierome saith , Idem est Presbyter , qui Episcopus . These twoo woordes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Cypria . ad Quirinum . Li 3. Ca. 76. are expounded in Latine , Natu maior , Natu maximus . So Plutarchus saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Olde Trees : So Nazianzene saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Goeinge by a staffe , as olde menne vse to doo . Therefore , Thomas Secundae Secundae . quast. 184 arti. 6. M. Hardinge , it had benne more for your grauitie , to haue spared these youtheful folies .

Yee saie , The Priestes , and Deacons waited onely vpon the Bishoppes : but Sentence in Councel thei might geue none . Dist 21. Cl●ros . Hieronym . ad Titum , Cap. 1. Plutarch . in Publicola . This tale were true , M. Hardinge , if euery your woorde were a Gospel . But S. Luke woulde haue tolde you far otherwise . For , speakinge of the first Christian Councel , holden in y● Apostles time , he saith thus : Conuenerunt Apostoli , & Seniores , vt dispicerent de hoc negotio : The Apostles , and Elders mette togeather , to take order , touchinge this mater . And againe in the Conclusion , Placuit Apostolis , Actorum . 15. Nicephorus , Li. 8. Cap 15. & Senioribus , cum tota Ecclesia : It seemed good to the Apostles , and Elders , togeather with the whole Churche . Nicephorus saith , Athanasius inter Diaconos Alexandriae Primarius , non minima pa●s Nicenae Synodi : Athanasius beinge ( not a Bishop , but ) one of the chiefe Deacons of Alexandria , was not the least parte of the Councel of Nice . Tertullian in Apologetico . Tertullian saith , Praesident probati quique Seniores , honorem istum non pretio , sed testimonio adepti : The Judges in sutche Ecclesiastical Assemblies be the beste allowed Elders , hauinge obteined that honoure , not for monie , but by the witnesse of their Brethren . Concil. Nicen. 2. Actio . 2. 4 & 6 And in the Seconde Councel of Nice , Petrus Protopresbyter , and Petrus Presbyter , not beinge Bishoppes , but onely Priestes , sente thither by Adrianus the Bishop of Rome , gaue their assentes , and subscribed their names before al the Bishoppes .

Touchinge S. Cyprian ▪ yée saie , as your grauitie , and modestie leadeth you , Wee lie , without coloure , and passe measure in Lieinge . And here , as menne doo , that goe by gheasse , & answeare longe before thei knowe , yée finde out a place in S. Cyprian , that wée thought not of : and , vpon affiance thereof , yée blowe vp your trumpe , and cal vs Liers . How be it , wise menne thinke him a hasty Iudge , that pronounceth before he knowe the cause . Cyprian . Lib. 3. Epist. 10. S. Cyprian saithe , A primordio Episcopatus mei , statui , nihil sine consilio vestro , & sine consensu Plebis , mea priuatim sententia , gerere : From my firste entringe into the Bishoprike , I haue determined to doo nothinge by mine owne authoritie , without your ad●●se ( being the Priestes , & Deacons ) , and without the consente of the people . For dooinge the contrarie hereof , the Anciente Father Origen rebuketh Bishoppes of Pride , and statelinesse . Thus he saithe , Quis hodiè corum , Origen . in Exodum , Homil. 11. qui populis praesunt , Consilium dignatur inferioris saltem Sacerdotis accipere ? Ne dixerim Laici , vel Gentilis : What one now adaies , of al the Bishoppes , that haue the ouersighte of the people , vouch● saueth to take the Councel of any Inferioure Prieste ? I wil not saie , of a Laie man , or of an Heathen . S. Ambrose , touchinge a case of Faithe againste the Arians , Ambros . Lib. ● . Epis. 32. saithe thus : Veniant , si qui sunt , ad Ecclesiam . Audiant cum populo : Non vt quisquam Iudex resideat : sed vt vnusquisque de suo affectu habeat examen : If there be any of them , let them comme to the Churche : Let them geue care , and hearken with the people : Not that any man there shal sitte as Iudge : but that euery man maie haue the examination of his owne minde .

To conclude , your owne Pope Nicolas , writinge vnto Michael the Greeke Emperoure , Epist. Nicolai pp. ad Imp. Michaelem . saithe thus , Vbinam legistis , Imperatores , Antecessores vestros , Synodalibus conuentionibus interfuisse ? Nisi fortè in quibusdam , vbi de Fide tractatum est : quae Vniuersalis est : quae omnium communis est : quae non solùm ad Clericos , verùmetiam● ad Laicos , & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos : Where did your Maiestie euer reade , that your Predecessoures , beinge Emperoures , were euer presente at the Assemblies of Councelles ? Onlesse it were , when question was moued concerninge the Faithe . For Faithe is Vniuersal , and common to al menne , and belongeth , not onely to the Priestes , but also to the Laie menne , and generally to al Christians . But hereof wée shal haue occasion to speake more hereafter .

The Apologie , Cap. 3. Diuision . 4.

But , I put case , these Abbates , & Bishoppes , haue no knowlege : what if they vnderstande nothinge , what Religion is , nor howe we ought to thinke of God ? I put case , the pronouncinge , & ministringe of the Lawe be decaied in Priestes , and good counsel faile in the Elders , Micheae . 3. & as the Prophete Micheas saith , The Night be vnto them in steede of a vision , and darkenesse in steede of Prophesienge : Or , Psal. 56. as Esaias saithe , What if al the watchemen of the cittie be become blinde ? What if the Salte haue loste his propre strength and sauerinesse , Matth. 5. and as christe saithe , be good for no vse , scante woorthe the castinge on the dounghil ?

M. Hardinge .

The worlde knoweth so well , ( yea Heauen also ) the greate woorthinesse of those Fathers in euery respect , that , I should doo them wronge here to praise them , for that by your fonde surmises you seeke their dispraise .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Heauen , Matthias Flacius Illyricus , in Protestatione contra Concil. Triden Pag. 79. and Earthe knoweth , M. Hardinge , that twoo of your Reuerende woorthy Fathers , notwithstandinge their vertues , and al their greate woorthinesse , were taken , and slaine in Aduouterie , euen there presente at your Councel . Therefore yee doo your selfe somme wronge , in respecte of your credite , so wastefully to bestowe your praises .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 1.

Wel yet then , they wil bringe al matters before the Pope , who cannot erre . To this I saie , firste it is a madnesse to thinke , that the Holy Ghoste taketh his flight from a General councel , to renne to Rome , to the ende if he doubt , or sticke in any matter , and cannot expounde it of him selfe , he maie take counsel of somme other Sprite , I wote not what , that is better learned , then him selfe . For if this be true , what needed so many Bishoppes , with so greate charges , & so farre iorneies , to haue assembled their Conuocation at this present at Tridente ? Yt hadde benne more wisedome , and better , at least it had benne a mutche nearer , and handsommer waie , to haue brought al thinges rather before the Pope , & to haue comme streight foorthe , & haue asked counsel at his Diuine Breaste . Secondly , it is also an vnlawful dealinge , to tosse our mater from so many Bishoppes , & Abbates , and to bringe it at laste to the trial of one onely man , specially of him , who him selfe is appeached by vs of hainous , and foule enormities , and hath not yet put in his Answeare : who hath also aforehande condemned vs without Iudgement by order pronounced , and ere euer we were called , to be Iudged .

M. Hardinge .

We maie lesse wonder at your iestinge in other thinges , sithe now wee set you scoffe and ieste in thinges touchinge God him selfe . Syr , set you so lighte by the Holy Ghoste . * * We Honour , and Adoure the Holy Ghoste , as very God : But you shamefully abuse the name of God . as thus vnreuerently to talke of his flight and runninge to Rome , of his doubtinge , and stickinge , of his vnablenesse to declare doubtfull cases , of askinge counsell of an other spirite ? Who euer vttered suche vile talke of the Holy Ghost , but some vile caitife , quite voide of his grace ? Can not you conceiue that reasonably the determinations of Councels be referred to the Pope Christes Vicare in Earthe , onlesse ye vtter suche vnreuerent and prophane scoffes ? It had become a wicked Celsus , a Porphyrius , a Iulian , thus to talke , rather then any Christian Hickescorner . You should at leste haue looked on your square Cappe , and your white rochet , if you haue any : if nothinge els , they woulde haue tolde you , that suche prophane lightnesse became not your person .

Concerninge the pointe it selfe , you touche , ‡ ‡ Vntruthes hudled togeather without shame . although the Pope haue that Priuiledge , whiche Christe ‡ ‡ praied to his Father for to be geuen vnto Peter , Luke . 22. as beinge Peters Successour , that his ‡ Faith faile not , and that be confirme his Brethren , and therefore be an ‡ assured iudge in matters of Faithe : yet this notwithstandinge , councels be not assembled togeather in vaine . For the Fathers of the Councell doo * * A sage kinde of mockerie . For then doothe not the Pope Confirme his Brethren : but rather is Confirmed by his Brethren . helpe the Faithe and Doctrine of the highest Pastour . Wherefore in the firste councell at Ierusalem , Act. 15. when as a greate question rose , and Peter had saide his iudgement , not propped with any testimonie of the Holy Scriptures , Iames approued it , addinge thereto the testimonies of the Prophetes . For Gods prouidence so tendereth the Churche , that the chiefe ‡ ‡ By this Diuinitie Iames was a member of Peter . members , though they depende of the ‡ Head , yet defende and healpe the Head .

Wherefore Seda admonisheth discretely , Lib. Retra . in act . Apostolorum . that Paule conferred the Gospel , which he had Preached amongest the Gentiles , with the other Apostles , seekinge warely to be resolued , whether he Preached rightly of the ceassinge of the obseruances of the Lawe . Not that he doubted ought thereof himselfe , ( saithe he ) but that the mindes of them , that were in doubte , might be confirmed by the Auctoritie of that Apostolike Councell .

To that you alleage secondly , as a greate inconuenience , wee tell you , that forasmuch as the Pope is at euery generall Councell laufully assembled , either in person , as sundry Popes haue benne , or by his Legates : * * Wisely . The Holy Ghoste that is presente at the Councel , for better aduise , taketh counsel of the Pope . neither it is an vnlaufull dealinge , nor suche tossinge , as you terme it , matters maturely debated in the Councell , to be referred to the Pope head of the Councell , not so muche for a newe triall , as for finall confirmation . The Fathers of the Nicene councell besought S. Syluestes● , that what they had ordeined , he would confirme and ratifie . And Leo what thinges the Councell of Chalcedon had decreed , touchinge matters of faithe , saithe , that he approueth them . And the Councel it selfe speakinge to Leo , saithe thus : Decretis tuis nostrum honora Iudicium : With thy Decrees honour our Iudgement . Likewise the Fathers of other councels , required their constitutions to be strengthened by confirmation of the Popes auctoritie .

And sir , finde you faulte with the Pope , because he hath not yet put in his answeare ? I praie you , ‡ ‡ The whole worlde accuseth him . who accused him ? Where , when , and whereof ? In what laufull Courte ? Before what laufull Iudge ? O you saie , he hath not yet put in his answeare . Be it that Hicke , Hob , and Hans of your sectes haue impudently accused him . How would ye haue him bringe in his answere ? To what seate of iudgmente , to what Consistorie can ye cite him , that is by Christe appointed * * A foule Vntruthe . For Christe neuer gaue the Pope any sutche Commission . to be the Supreme iudge of all his Churche ▪ the Sheepeherde of all his Flo●ke ? It is not for him you know , to bringe in his answere in Weshminster Haull , nor in Sterre Chamber . Will ye haue him appeare before your high Commissioners in the longe Chappell at Powles , or in M. Crindalles chamber thereby , where ye haue saide and donne your pleasure , and depriued many honest menne of their benefices ? Or will ye rather haue him come to Geneua , The Sprite of Councelles . to Zurich , to Frankforde , to Strasburg , to Wittenberg , or to some other corner , where ye haue your congregations , there to be iudged by Iacke and Gille ? I pitie you , poore soules , that yee talke thus so farre out of square , and woulde the Pope to bringe in his answeare , ye knowe not where , hauinge neither iuste Courte , or Consistorie to call him vnto , nor laufull iudge , nor lawe to passe vpon him . For through your Schismes and Heresies , as ye haue made your selues Churchelesse , Christlesse , and Godlesse so also Courtlesse , Iudgelesse , and Lawlesse . I can not compare you better then to the Rebelles of Northfolke vnder Captaine Kete , amongest whom Mount Surrey was their London , and an Oke or an Elme commonly called the tree of Reformation , was their Westminster Halle . Suche Prince , such Dominion : such Iudge , such Consistorie .

Ye complaine , the Pope hath condemned you without iudgement by order pronounced , and before yee were euer called to be iudged . This is as true , as that the Murderer or Theefe answeareth the Iudge at the barre , saieinge , not gilty my Lorde . Ye haue benne sundry times called to laufull Consistories , to Synodes , to Councels . Alwaies either ye made not your appearance , or by right of safeconduct conueyed your selues away , without any shewe of Obedience : or vpon promise of amendement , you were dimissed . How many Legates and Nuncios haue sundry Popes sente into Germanie and other Prouinces , to conuent you , to heare you , to moue you to a better minde , and call you home , and with all mercifull meanes to gather you againe into the lappe of the Churche ? He may saye , to your condemnation , Esai . 5. that was saide of the Iewes : what is that Iought to haue donne to * * Open Blasphemie : The Churche is the Popes Vineyarde . my Vineyarde , whiche I haue not donne ? But all was in vaine , such hathe benne your stubbournesse .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wée ieste not at Goddes Holy sprite , M. Hardinge . Wée know , it is the same Sprite of Wisedome , that hath renewed the face of the worlde , & discouered the multitude of your folies . But wel maie wée ieste at your vnhandsome , and open legierdumaine , that so vainely seeke to blinde vs with a painted shadowe of the Sprite of God . Yée pretende longe Praiers , mutche Fastinge , great conference of Doctours , and Scriptures , and the vndoubted presence , and assistance of Goddes Holy Sprite in al your dooinges : & yet openly striue against the manifest Woorde , and Sprite of God , and folowe onely your owne Sprite , whiche wee maie truely calle the Sprite of Vanitie . The Sprite , that you meane , is nothinge els , but the Sprite of Rome : whiche , you saie , is the Sprite of Truthe , & cannot erre . In one of your late Councelles , Nicolaus de Clauengijs . holden in Rome , as yée were singinge , Veni Creator Spiritus , God sente downe an Owle from the toppe of the Churche , to sitte emongest you : that the worlde might knowe , in what sprite yée were assembled .

Elias , 3. Regum . 18. the Prophete of God , iested thus at the Priestes of Baal : Crie out alowde : It is your God . Either he is occupied in somme talke : or he is in his Inne : or he is trauailinge vpon the waie : or els perhaps he is a sleepe . Yet neither was Elias an Hicke Scorner : nor iested he at Goddes Holy sprite : nor did he any thinge , that was vnséemely for his personne .

As for your Councelles , whether they be al , and euermore summoned by the Sprite of God , or no , it maie wel be doubted . The Vniuersitie of Parise thus protested , by waie of Appeale , Appellatio Vniuers . Parisien . Anno. 1517. againste Pope Leo. 10. & his Councel : Dominus Leo Papa Decimus , in quodam Coetu in Ciuitate Romana , nescimus qualiter , non tamen in Spiritu Domini , Congregato : Our Lorde Pope Leo 10. in a certaine Councel , geathered in y● Cittie of Rome , by what meane , wee know not : but surely not by the Sprite of God . And touchinge your Late Chapter , or Conuenticle , whiche ye cal the Councel of Trente , Oratio Synodica , Anno. 1562. the Frenche Kinges Embassadoure , beinge there in presence , saide thus : Minùs legitima , minusúe libera fuisse dicuntur illa Concilia . Qui aderant , ad voluntatem alterius semper loquebantur : The saieinge is , that these were neither Lawful , nor Free Councelles . The Bishoppes , that were there , spake ( not alwaies of the Spirite of God , but ) euermore to please somme other : By whiche , Other , he meante the Pope .

Christe saith vnto Peter , Confirmation of Councelles I haue praied for thee : and Paule wente vp to Hierusalem , to visite Peter : Ergo , ye saie , The Pope hath Authoritie to confirme Councelles . O M. Hardinge , your Logique of Louaine is marueilous hasty . Yée force your Conclusions , Luc. 22. Galat. 2. to renne in poste . For what maketh , either Christes praier for Peter , or Paules iourney from Arabia to Hierusalem , for the Confirmation of Councelles ? Verily , here is no manner mention , neither of Confirmation , nor of Councel , nor of Pope .

Whereas Christe praied namely for Peter , S. Augustine saithe , as he hathe benne alleged before , August . De quae . Noui Testamen . quaest. 75. Nunquid pro Petro rogabat : pro Iacobo , & Iohanne non rogabat ? Did Christe praie onely for Peter : and did he not praie for Iames , and Iohn ?

Againe he saithe , Augu. De Verb. Domi. In Euang. Secundum Lucan , Sermo. 36. Hac nocte postulauit Satanas vexare vos , sicut triticum : Sed ego rogaui Patrem pro vobis , ne deficiat Fides vestra : This might hath Sathan desired to threashe you , as if yee were wheate . But I haue praied to my Father ( not onely for Peter , but ) for you , that your Faithe maie not faile .

Touchinge that Paule wente vp to Hierusalem , of Courtesie , to sée Peter , he sought not thereby the allowance of his Doctrine , as a man , Galat. 2. that otherwise stoode in doubt , whether he had so long , for the space of fourtiene yéeres preached Truth , or Falsehedde : but rather found fault with Peters dissimulation in Doctrine , & reproued him openly euen vnto the face . S. Hierome saith , Perrexit Hierusalem , non tam vt disceret aliquid ab Apostolis , Hieronym . in Epist. ad Gal. ca. 1. quàm cum eis Euangelium , quod docuerat , collaturus : Paule went vp to Hierusalem , not so mutche to learne any thinge of the Apostles , as to conferre with them touchinge the Gospel , that he had preached .

S. Chrysostome saithe further , Paulus nihil opus habebat Petro : nec illius egebat voce : Chrysost ad Galat. Cap 1. sed honore par erat illi : Nihil enim hîc dicam amplius : Paule had no neede of Peter : nor had any cause to craue his voice : but in honoure , and woorthinesse , was his equal : As for more , I wil not saie .

Concerninge the Confirmation of Councelles , wée haue saide otherwhere more at large . Councelles were Confirmed , In the Former Replie , Artic. 4. Diuision . 26. not onely by the Bishop of Rome , but also by other Bishoppes , and Patriarkes : and not onely by other Bishoppes , but also by Kinges , and Emperours . The Emperoure Martianus saith , Sacro nostrae Serenitatis edicto venerandam Synodum Confirmamus : By the Holy Edicte of our Maiestie wee Confirme this Reuerende Councel . Concil. Chalced. Actio . 3. Likewise the Bishoppes in the Councel of Constantinople , besought the Emperour Theodosius , Rogamus Clementiam tuam , Concil. Constantinopolitan . 5. vt per Literas tuae Pietatis ratum esse iubeas , Confirmesque Concilij Decretum : Wee beseeche your fauoure , that by your Maiesties Letters , yee wil ratifie , and Confirme the Decree of the Councel .

Touchinge the Councel of the Apostles at Hierusalem , your owne Doctoure saithe , Heruaeus de potestat . Pp. Ca. 14. Postquàm Petrus dixisset , Iacobus , Authoritate Pontificali ▪ protulit Definitiuam Sententiam : When Peter had saide his minde , Iames , by his Episcopal Authoritie , pronounced the Definitiue Sentence : that is to saie , gaue his Confirmation to the whole .

To conclude , Councelles haue benne allowed , and holden for good , whether the Bishop of Rome would , or no. Liberatus saith , When Anatolius , by consent of the Councel of Chalcedon , Liberat. Cap. 13. had obteined the Primacie , & the Bishop of Romes Legates stoode against it , theire gainesaieinge of the Iudges , and Bishoppes there was not receiued . And notwithstandinge the Apostolique See of Rome euen hitherto stand againste it , yet the Decree of the Councel , by the Authoritie , and mainteinance of the Emperoure , Quodammodò . after a sorte , standeth stil in force .

Mutche pleasant sporte yée make vs , with puttinge in the Popes answeare . Be it , saie you , that Hicke , Hob , and Hans haue accused the Pope . Woulde ye haue him appeare in this Courte , or in that , to be iudged by Iacke , and Gil ? The whole worlde , M. Hardinge , hath of longe time charged the Pope with Ambition , To iudge the Pope . Briberie , Simonie , Superstition , Idolatrie , and open Corruption of the ordinances , and wil of God . If he disdeigne the iudgemente of so many , and calle the whole worlde Hicke , and Hob , let him not marueile , if the whole worlde disdeigne him . If he maie be both Iudge , and Partie , and maie make answeare onely before him selfe , I doubte not , but he shal haue a good fauourable hearinge .

I beséech the , Parte . 5. Cap. 6. Diui. 7. good Christian Reader , for shortenesse sake , consider that I haue written before , touchinge the Accusinge , and Iudgeing of the Pope . There shalte thou sée , Ennodius . 9. Q. 3. Nemo . as Ennodius saithe , That the Pope togeather with the Power of Teaching , hath receiued free libertie to doo il , without controlmente . Therefore he saithe , Neque ab Augusto , neque ab omni Clero , neque à Regibus , neque a Populo Iudex iudicabitur : The Pope , that is the Iudge , shal be iudged , neither by the Emperoure , nor by the whole Cleregie , nor by Kinges , nor by the People . Sutche a Prerogatiue , saithe Athanasius , Athanasi . contra Arianos Oration . 1. was sommetime claimed by the Ariane Heretiques : Cùm ipsi sint rei , ac Iudicio obnoxij , Chryso . in Matthae . Homil. 85. veluti Caiaphas , iudicandi munus inuadunt : Whereas they them selues be guilty , and in danger of Iudgement , they plaie the parte of Caiphas , and take vpon them to be iudges them selues . In like manner Chrysostome sathe , Figura ibi duntaxat Iudicij erat : re autem ipsa erat Latronum impetus : There was onely a face of Iudgemente : but in deede it was a biunte or violence of Theeues .

Yee saie further , Esai . 5. The Pope maie saie , to our condemnation , that God saithe vnto the Iewes : what is it , that I ought to haue donne to my vinsyarde , but I haue donne it ? And thus yée geue the Pope power , to callenge the Churche of God , to be his owne . Euen so Nero that wicked Tyran , when he had wasted , and consumed the Cittie of Rome , and burnte it with here , he called the same neuerthelesse by his owne name , Neronopolis , Neroes towne . Heruaeus de potestat . Papae . One of your Doctoures saithe , Huius Communitatis non est Dominus , nisi Christus , vel Papa : There is no Lord of this common slate , ( that is to saie , of the Churche ) but either Christe , or the Pope : As if Christe , and the Pope were iointepourchasers .

But in deede Christe onely is the Prince of Pastours . 1. Pet. 5. August . de verb. Domi. in Euang. Secundum Iohan. Sermo . 50. Esai . 5. And the Churche is his onely Spouse , and not the Popes S. Augustine saithe vnto Christe , Tu Petro non dixisti , Palce Oues tuas : sed , Pasce Oues meas : Thou saidste not vnto Peter , Feede thy Sheepe : but , Feede mine . Peter belongeth vnto the Churche : but the Churche belongeth not vnto Peter .

The Churche is not the Popes Vine : It is the Vine of the Lorde of Sabaoth . It shal be sufficiente for the Pope , if he maie be onely a branche in this Vine : if he be not withered : if he be not cutte of , and throwen into the fiere .

S. Augustine saith , Augu. in Iohan. Tracta. 323. Qui hoc animo pascunt Oues Christi , vt Suas velint esse , non Christi , se conuincuntur amare , non Christum : vel gloriandi , vel dominandi , vel acquirendi cupiditate : They , that feede the Sheepe of Christe , to that ende , that they woulde haue them to be theire Sheepe , and not Christes , are founde to loue them selues , and not Christe , for desire , either of Glorie , or of Gouernemente , or of Gaine .

The Apologie , Cap. 4. Diuision . 2.

Howe saie ye , doo wee diuise these tales ? Is not this the very course of the Councelles in these daies ? Are not al thinges remoued from the whole holy Councel , and brought before the Pope alone : that as thoughe nothinge had benne donne to pourpose by the indgementes , and consentes of sutch a number , he alone maie adde , alter , diminishe , disanulle , allowe , remitte , & qualifie , what so euer he liste ? Whose woordes be these then ? And why haue the Bishoppes , & Abbates in the laste Councel at Tridente but of late concluded thus in th ende , Sauinge alwaies the Authoritie of the See Apostolique in al thinges ? Or why dooth Pope Paschale write so proudely of him selfe ? De Election . & Electi pote . Significasti . As though , saithe he , there were any General Councel hable to prescribe a Lawe to the Churche of Rome : whereas al Councelles both haue benne made , and haue receiued their force , and strength by the Authoritie of the Churche of Rome : and in ordinaunces made by Councels , is euer plainely excepted the Authoritie of the Romaine Bishop . If they wil haue these thinges allowed for good , why be Councelles called ? But if they commaunde them to be voide , why are they leafte in theire Bookes , as thinges allowable ?

M. Hardinge .

Sir , what neeede you bestowe so mutche talke in vaine ? Is 〈◊〉 not reason the * * Who made al the Faithful of Christ , the Popes Members ? members acknoweledge the heade ? Woulde you the members to worke their actions without the heade ? Is Pope Paschalis to be called proude for preferringe the Churche of Rome before a Councel ? Haue not Councels euer ben thought to lacke theire ful Auctoritie , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe plaine , and manifeste . For the Pope had no Authoritie to calle Councelles : As it shal appeare . whiche were not called and confirmed by the Bishop of Rome ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Modestie , and Sobrietie of Pope Paschalis claime shal better appeare in the nexte Diuision . Verily the Churche of Rome , these many yéeres , maie séeme to haue benne nothinge els , but a Moother of Falsehed , & a Schoole of Pride . Pope Nicolas saithe , Nicola . Pp. 1. Ad Imp. Michael● . Concil. Lateran . Sub Leone 10. Sessione . 10. De Sedis Apostolicae iudicio nemini licet iudicare : It is lawful for noman to iudge of the Popes Iudgemente . And of late yéeres , Pope Leo saide , Papa habet Authoritatem super omnia Concilia : The Pope hathe Authoritie ouer al Councelles . That al lawful Councelles haue euermore benne summoned , and confirmed by the Pope , it is a mauifest , and grosse vntruthe : as hereafter it shal be opened more at large .

Where ye saie , It is reason , the Members shoulde acknowledge theire Heade , For shame , M. Hardinge , and for your credites sake , once leaue these vanities . If the Pope be any parte of Goddes Churche , he is a Member , and not the Heade : and the Faithful of the Churche of God , are Christes Members , and not the Popes .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 1.

But be it so : Let the Bishop of Rome alone be aboue al Councelles , that is to saie , let somme one parte be greater then the whole : let him be of greatter Power , let him be of more Wisedome , then al his : and , Hieron . ad Euagrium . in spite of Hieromes heade , let the Authoritie of one Cittie be greatter , then the Authoritie of the whole worlde .

M. Hardinge .

It is a common manner of this Defender , what he must needes graunt , to make a shewe in wordes , as though it were free gifte . So many times beggers wil seme gentilmen , and paiers of debte wil seme geuers . Let the Bishop of Rome , ( saithe he ) alone be aboue al councels . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . Otherwise shewe vs , by what Authoritie he is so . Sir , he is so : no thake to you . Yet speake you like a liberal gentilman : That is to saie , let some one parte be greater then the whole . No sir , The Pope aboue General councelles . maugre your scoffinge heade , parte shal not be greater then the whole , but parte shal be greater then parte . * * Ful wisely . As if the Pope were the Heade , & the whole Churche were his Body : Or , As if the Pope were the Maister , & the Churche his Familie . In a right sense is not the heade greater then the body , the Bishop then his cleregy , the * maister of a house more then his familie ? Neither is the Councel the whole pardy , excepte your mery witte can deuise vs a whole body without a heade . Let him be of greater power , saie you . And so he is . Let him be of more wisedome , then al his . We saie not so . It maie be , that his Councel hath more learninge , ‡ ‡ The Councel hathe more Wisedome , and Learninge , then the Pope : yet the Pope is in Wisedome , and Learning aboue the Councel . more knowledge and more wisedome , then his onely person . Albeit , when we speake of that wisdome of the See Apostolike , whiche is sure , infallible , and cannot erre : we meane not onely the Popes singular person , but the heade Pastoure and Bishop , as he doth those thinges , whiche perteine to that chaire : that is to saie , in asmutche as he procedeth not vpon his owne priuate iudgemente , * * O fonde folie . For so any simple creature , so longe as he is leadde by the Holy Ghost , can neuer erre . but by the instincte of the Holy Ghoste , promised by Christe to his vicare . Where you saie , And in spite of Hieromes heade , let the Authoritie of one Citie be greater them the Authoritie of the whole world : we tel you , that this you speake more spitefully , then learnedly . For S. Hierome in his epistle to Euagrius speaketh ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , vaine , and childish . For S. Hierome speaketh plainely of Authoritie : Si Authoritas quaeritur , Maior est Orbis Vrbe . onely of a particular matter , blaminge the custome of Rome , where contrary to the custome of the whole world , deacons in certaine cases were preferred before Priestes , whereof we haue spoken before .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Sir defender , ye saie , speaketh like a Liberal Gentleman . Againe yée saie , No sir , Maugre your scoffinge heade . These , and other like woordes , M. Hardinge , are sittinge , and seemely for your personne , and maie wel becomme your mery witte .

Where wee saie , Let the Bishop of Rome be of greater power , then any General Councel , yée answeare vs readily , And so he is : Where wée saie , Let him be of more Wisedome , then al other Bishoppes , Yée answeare againe , Wee saie not so : As if yée woulde allowe the Pope Authoritie , and Power without Wisedome . Yet wise menne haue saide , that Power without Wisedome is the kingedome of Folie .

Somme of your frendes haue saide , Si Totus Mundus sententiaret in aliquo negotio contra Papam , videtur , quo'd standum esset Sententiae Papae : If the whole worlde shoulde geeue sentence in any mater againste the Pope , it seemeth , wee ought rather to stande to the Popes iudgemente , then to the Iudgemente of al the worlde . Albertus Pigghi us saithe , Certius est iudicium Papae , quàm iudicium Generalis concilij , aut Totius Orbis terrarum : The Iudgemente of the Pope is more certaine , then is the Iudgement of a General Councel , or els of al the whole worlde . An other saithe , Papa virtualiter est Tota Ecclesia : The Pope by Power is the whole Vniuersal Churche . An other saith , 9. quaest. 3. Nemo . In Gloss . Potestas solius Papae excedit Potestatem residuae Ecclesiae : The Popes onely Power excedeth the Power of al the Churche biside . Alb Piggh. Eccl. Hiera . li. 6. ca. 13. Heruae . De potesta . Pp. Cap. 23. Petr. De Palude , de potestat . Pp. Artic. 4. An other saithe , Papa non potest subijcere se Concilio Generali : The Pope cannot submitte him selfe to a General Councel . Vpon these woorthy Fundations yée haue built vp the Popes Infinite , and Vniuersal Power : And therefore yée saie , Sir Defender woulde seeme , to graunte you of free gifte , that he muste needes graunt perforce , whether he wil or no.

Al this not withstandinge , M. Hardinge , others of your more indifferente Doctoures , would haue tolde you an other tale . S. Bernarde saithe , Quae maior superbia esse potest , Extra . De Iudicijs . Cùm venissent . Iohan . Andr. Berna . Citatur à Pico Mirand . In quae . An Papa sit supra Concil. Picus Mirandul . eodem loco . quàm vt Vnus homo toti Congregationi iudicium suum praeferat , tanquàm Solus habeat Spiritum Sanctum ? What greatter pride can there be , then that One man should esteeme his owne iudgemente more , then the iudgemente of al the Churche , as if he onely had the Sprite of God ? Whereunto picus Mirandula addeth these woordes , Imò Simplici potiùs Rustico , & Infanti , & Aniculae magis , quàm Pontifici Maximo , & mille Episcopis credendum est , si isti contra Euangelium , illi pro Euangelio faciant : Naie , wee ought to beleue a Simple plaine Husbandeman , or a Childe , or an Olde Wooman , rather then the Pope , and a thousand Bishoppes , if the Pope , and the Bishoppes speake againste the Gospel , and the others speake with the Gospel .

The Bishoppes in the Councel of Ferraria saie thus , Quacunque facultate Romana Ecclesia praedita sit , Vniuersali tamen Ecclesiae , quam Generalis Synodus prae se fert , inferior est : With what so euer power the Churche of Rome be endewed , yet is it inferioure to the Vniuersal Churche , Conc. Ferrarion . Session 10. that is represented by the General Councel .

The Bishoppes in the Councel of Basile saie thus , Concil. Basilien . Inter Epistolas Synodales . Etsi Papa sit Caput Ministeriale Ecclesiae , non tamen est maior tota Ecclesia . Alioqui errante Pontifice , quod saepè contingit , & contingere potest , tota erraret Ecclesia : Although the Pope be the Ministerial heade of the Churche , yet is he not greater , then al the Churche . Otherwise , when so euer the Pope erreth , whiche thing happeneth oftentimes , and maie wel happen , the whole Churche shoulde likewise erre .

Againe they saie , In appendice Conc. Basilien . Sacrosanctae Generali . Nonnulli os suum ponenies in Coelum , Potestatem Romani Pontificis supra Potestatem Sacrorum Generalium Conciliorum , contra Iuris Diuini , & Humani Veritatem , à Sanctis Patribus aliâs declaratam , exaltare nituntur : Many menne settinge theire face againste the Heauen , goe aboute to exalte the power of the Bishop of Rome aboue the Power of Holy General Councelles , contrarie to the Truthe of the Law , both of God , and man , declared vnto vs by the Holy Fathers .

Againe they saie , In eadem appendice , Et Primò . Ecclesia Romana non est Vniuersa , sed est de Vniuersirate Corporis Mystici , id est , Ecclesiae : Et sic est Membrum dicti Corporis Mystici , vt pater per Beatum Gregorium . Igitur ex quo est Membrum dicti Corporis , non est , nec esse potest Caput illius : Cùm differentia sit inter Caput , & Membra : The Churche of Rome is not Vniuersal , but a parte of the Vniuersal Mystical Body of Christe , whiche is the Churche : and so is it a Member of Christes saide Body Mystical , as it appeareth by S. Gregorie . Therefore , for as mutche as it is a Member of the saide Body , it is not , neither can it be the Heade of the same Body . For there is a difference bitweene the Heade , and the Body .

Likewise againe they saie , In eadem appendice , Eod. capite . Allegant , Papam impunè posse tollere Constitutionem Concilij Generalis , contra prohibitionem ipsius Concilij Generalis : supponentes , Papam else Pastorem Vniuersalis Ecclesiae . Sed ipsorum suppositum est falsum : & consequenter ipsorum assertio super eo fundata est falsa : Thei saie , The Pope maie safely abolishe the Decree of a General Councel , notwithstandinge the same General Councel haue decreed the contrarie : The Pope is not pastoure of the Vntuersal Churche . supposinge , that the Pope is the Bishop of the Vniuersal Churche . But theire supposal is false : and so consequentely false is theire Doctrine , that they haue builte thereupon .

Therefore , M. Hardinge , this parte of your Booke , emonge the reste , woulde more aduisedly haue benne considered . D. Cole him selfe , notwithstanding otherwise wel enclined vnto your faction , yet in this pointe is wel content to géeue you ouer . D. Cole . Thus he saithe of him selfe : I holde herein rather with Gerson , that the Councel is aboue the Pope .

The Pope , yée saie , in one respecte , as he is a Man , in his owne singulare persone , maie happen to erre : But in an other respecte , as he is Heade Pastoure , and Chiefe Bishop , and is placed in Peters Chaire , he cannot erre . And thus , as the Heathens , in olde times , imagined theire Centaurus to be halfe a Man , and halfe a Horse : or theire Ianus to haue twoo faces , the one behinde , and the other before : euen so haue you imagined twoo Popes in one body : the one goeinge backewarde , the other forewarde : the one bearinge Light , the other Darkenesse : the one deceiued , the other not deceiued : the One speakinge Truthe , the other Falsehedde : and yet both these Popes incorporate togeather in one Persone . Geue vs leaue therefore , M. Hardinge , to saie nowe , as the whole Vniuersitie of Parise said , Appellatio Vniuer . Parisien . à Leon. 10. An. 1517. not longe sithence , vnto Pope Leo , A Domino nostro Papa , iam non bene consulto , appellamus : Wee appeale from our Lorde the Pope , beinge , as nowe , not wel aduised .

Certainely , Hierony . ad Heliodorum , De laude vitae Solitariae . S. Hierome saith , Non est facile , stare in loco Pauli , tenere gradum Petri , iam cum Christo regnantium : ne fortè veniat Angelus , qui scindat Velum Templi tui , qui Candelabrum tuum de loco moueat : It is no easy mater , to stande in Peter , or Paules place nowe reigninge with Christe : leste the Angel comme , and rente a sunder : he vele of thy Temple , and remoue they Candesticke from his place .

The place of S. Hierome to Euagrius , Parte . 2. Ca. 3. Diuisi . 5. is answeared before .

The Apologie , Cap. 5. Diuision . 2.

How then , if the Pope haue sene none of these thinges , and haue neuer read , either the Scriptures , or the Olde Fathers , or yet his owne Councelles ? Howe if he fauoure the Arians , as once Pope Liberius did ? Or haue a wicked , and a detestable opinion of the life to comme , and of the immortalitie of the Soule , as Pope Iohn had but fewe yeeres sithence ? Or , to encrease his owne Dignitie , doo nowe corrupte other councelles , as Pope Zosimus corrupted the councel holden at Nice in times paste : and doo saie , that those thinges were diuised and appointed by the Holy Fathers , whiche neuer once came into their thought : and , to haue the ful swaie of Authoritie , doo wreaste the Scriptures , which thing , as camotensis saith , is an vsual custome with the Popes ? Howe if he haue renounced the Faithe of christe , & become an Apostata , as Lyranus saithe many Popes haue benne ? And yet , for al this , shal the Holy Ghoste with turninge of a hande , knocke at his breaste , and euen whether he wil , or no , yea , and wholy againste his wil , kindle him a light , so as he maie not erre ? Shal he streight waie be the Headespring of al Right , and shal al the treasures of Wisdome , & Vnderstanding be found in him , as it were laide vp in stoare ? Or , if these thinges be not in him , can he geeue a right , and apte iudgemente of so weighty maters ? Or , if he be not hable to iudge , woulde he haue , that those maters shoulde be brought before him alone ?

M. Hardinge .

To your howe ifs , and what ifs I coulde sone make an answeare by the contrary * * What then ? Should he therfore be aboue General Councelles ? And Sir , how if the Pope haue sene al these thinges , the Scriptures , Fathers , and Councels ? What haue you then to saie ? Is not your tale then at an ende ? Were your matter good , and your selfe wise , you woulde nor so commonly vse that weake kirde of reasoning . But to a number of your how ifs , and what ifs , for the readers sake , to put awaie al seruple , I geue you this answeare .

Gods wisedome ( as the Scripture saithe ) disposeth al thinges sweetly , Sadly , and sagely , and mutche to the purpose . and in one instant forseeth the ende , Sapien. 8. and meanes that be necessary to the end . If he promise any man life euerlasting , withal he geueth him grace also to do good dedes , Rom. 8. whereby to obteine the same . Whom he hath glorified ( saith S. Paule ) them he hath iustified and called . So whereas he hath by force of his praier made to the Father , promised to Peter , Matt. 16. Luc. 22. and for the safetie of the Churche , * * Vntruthe , fonde , and childishe : For Christ praied nomore for Peter , than for others : nor euer made mention of Peters Successours . to euery Peters Successour , that his faithe shal not faile , and therfore hath willed him to confirme his brethren , that is , to remoue al doubtes and errours from them : we are assured , he wil geue him sutche witte , diligence , learninge , and vnderstandinge , as this firmnes , and infallibilitie of faithe , and confirminge of brethren requireth . Shal we stande in doubte whether that happeneth in thinges supernatural , whiche we see to be in thinges natural , that who geueth the ende , he geueth also thinges , that perteine to the atteininge of the ende ? If God woulde promise vs abundance of corne for the nexte yeere to come , O woorthy , & graue reasons . what were more folish , then to doubte , and saie like to this Defender , howe if , and what if men wil not til the grounde , nor so we any seede ? Doubtles if they so we , they shal reepe if they sowe not , neither shal they reepe . But what ? We maie gather of the promise of God , that we shal haue not onely faier and ceasonable wether , wherby the fruites of the earth maie proue plentiful , but also that the husbandmen shal emploie theire endeuour , paines , and labour . For the abundance of corne so promised shal not be geuen but to sutch , as til , so we , and truail Euen so wheras Christe hath promised to the * * Vntruthe . For Christe neuer entred into sutche couenante with Peters Successours . Successours of Peter , firmnes of Faithe , to the Apostles and theire Successours the spirite of Truthe , and likewise to Councels gathered in his name : we muste perswade our selues , that nothinge shal wante necessary for the controuersies , touchinge faithe , to be decided .

That you saie of Liberius the Pope , is starke f●lse ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , plainely reproued by S. Hierome . He neuer fauoured the Arians . The moste ye can finde againste him , is , that he was compelled by the greate persecution of Constantius the Emperoure , to subscribe to the Arians . Neither is that by the Aunciente writers of the Ecclesiastical stories constantly affirmed but of the chiefe of them not spoken of , where moste occasion was , to signifie it , if it had so ben : of some denied , of some mentioned not as true , but as a false rumoure bruted abroade of him . Sozom. lib. 4. cap. 15. Lib. de viris illustrib . in Chronicis . By whiche rumour it semeth * * S Hieromes Authoritie refused , as a man writing rashely , he knewe not what . S. Hierome was deceiued , remaininge in the Easte , farre from the places where the Truth might more certainely be knowen . But were it true , that he subscribed , as Peter denied Christ . yet beinge done ‡ ‡ The Pope denieth Christ , for lacke of Charitie , but not for lacke of Faithe . for lacke of Charitie , and not by erroure in faith , wel might that facte be slaunderous to the Churche , but it was not a decre made in fauour of the Arians , neither to confirme that heresie .

That you reporte of Pope Iohn the 22. is likewise moste false . The worste that Marsilius of Padua , and William Ockam Heretikes wrote of him to flatter the Emperour Lidouicus of Bauaria , is , that he had taught openly * * Vntruthe manifest See the Answeare . ( whiche also is referred to the time before he was Pope ) ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he helde also , that the Soules of the wicked shoulde not be pounisshed before the Iudgemente . that the soules of the iuste see not God vntil the daie of iudgemente . That he had a wicked , and a detestable opinion of the immortalitie of the soule , there was no sutche his opinion , but it is your false slaunder , by whiche your wicked and detestable malice imagined to deface the Churche , and specially the Auctoritie of the holy See Apostolike . No storie of any estimation mentioneth , that he was of that firste opinion , after he came to be Pope , much lesse that he gaue any definitiue sentence of such matter . But contrariwise , * * Vntruthe , contrarie to that M Hardinge said immediatly before . For then he helde this Erroure in the time of his Popedome . when as he prepared him selfe to goe to the definition of that question , concerninge the seeinge of God , whiche iuste soules haue before the daie of iudgement , as Benedictus th eleuenth in sua extrauagante saieth , he was preuented by death , so as he might not do it .

You belte Zosimus : ‡ ‡ Vntruthe manifestely reproued by the Councel of Aphrica . be corrupted not the Councel of Nice : But signified to the Bishops of Aphrike assembled in Councel at Carthage , the Truthe concerninge the Canons of the Nicene Councel . The same maie be proued by Iulius the first , by the Epistle of * * These be very vaine , and childishe forgeries . Athinasius , and other Bishops of Egypt , Thebats , and Libya , written to Marcus the Pope of the Original of the , 72. Canons of the Nicene Councel , that remained in safe custodie in the Churche of Rome , subscribed with the handes of the Fathers , that at the same Councel were present And what credite was to be geuen to the contrary information of only twenty Canons , that was retourned from the Bishops of Constantinople and Alexandria ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , without any sauoure of witte , or learninge . Why shoulde M. Hardinge allege to foolishe Fables ? when Hereikes before had burned the Bookes , where the whole number was conteined , and lefte but those twenty , that al Bookes nowe commonly haue ?

If we shoulde alleage Camotensis , and Lyre , you woulde cal them the blacke garde , and set litle by them . First she we vs where they haue that you alleage out of them . M Iuel alleageth that of Canotensis in an other place . But where it is , he kepeth it to him selfe , and of him selfe it is likely it proceded . For his dealinge is sutche , as any false practise in respecte of him , maie seme credible . Albeit what worshipful Doctour ye meane by Camotensis * * If yee knowe him not , then maie you beste blame your Ignorance . I knowe not : Peraduenture ye meane Carnotensis , otherwise called Iuo I haue cause to gesse , that so it should be . And yet foure Bookes of sundry Printes bothe Englishe , and Latine so haue . If there be any sutche , as I suppose there is not , he is very obscure , nor worth the naminge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here yée saie , And Sir , Howe if the Pope haue seene al these thinges , the Scriptures , the Fathers . the Councelles ? Whether the Pope maie erre , or no. What haue you then to saie ? Is not your tale then at an ende ? No verily , M. Hardinge . I woulde further desire God , to geue him grace , to vse them wel , and to his Glorie . Notwithstandinge your owne Doctoures wil soone put al these your whattes , and whatifs , out of question . For , concerninge the Popes greate , and high Learning , Alphons . contra Haeres . li. 1. ca. 4. Alphonsus de Castro saith , as he hath benne alleged before , Constat , plures Papas adeò illiteratos fuisse , vt Grammaticam penitùs ignorarent : It is certainely knowen , that sundrie Popes haue benne so vnskilful in learninge , that thei neuer vnderstoode their Grammare . But , Christe hath praied for Peter , and made sure promise , that his Faithe should neuer faile . Therefore the Pope is wise : the Pope is learned : the Pope is Catholique : the Pope cannot erre . Al this , and a greate deale more , the Pope maie claime onely by Vertue of Christes praier . Now therefore , if the Pope shoulde erre , or be in Heresie , he might sue Christe in an Action of Couenante , & require him to perfourme his Promise . Michae 3. So saithe the Prophete Michaeas , Sacerdotes in mercede docebant , & Prophetae in pecunia diuinabant : & super Dominum requieseebant , dicentes , Nonne est Dominus in medio nostrum ? The Priestes taught the people for hiere : and the Prophetes Prophesied for moonie : and yet they rested them selues vpon Goddes Promise , saieinge , And is not the Lorde in the middes emongest vs ? Psalm. 118. Hierem. 17. But the Prophete saith , Euery man is a lier : Accursed is he , that trusteth in Man . Your owne Doctour Alphonsus saith , Omnis homo errare potest in Fide , etiamsi Papa sit : Euery man maie erre in Faithe : yea , although he be the Pope .

How be it , Concil. Tomo . 1. Tertull. Contra Praxeam . that your Vnlearned Reader maie the better consider , how safely he maie géeue credite to your bare woorde , whether the Pope maie be deceiued in Faithe , or no , it maie easily appeare by these fewe Examples . Who so listeth to séeke , maie finde moe . pope Marcellinus offred vp incense , & made Sacrifice vnto Diuelles . Beat. Rhenanus . Hieron . in praefatione de Viris illustribus . Tertullian saithe , Episcopum Romanum agnoscentem iam Prophetias Montani , Priscae , Maximillae , &c. The Bishop of Rome , wel likinge now the Prophesies ( or Heresies ) of Montanus , Prisca , and Maximilla , &c. Vpon whiche woordes Beatus Rhenanus noteth thus , Episcopus Romanus Montanizat : The Bishop of Rome fauoureth the Heresie of Montanus . Pope Liberius was an Arian Heretique : Concil. Nicenum 2. Action . 7. as hereafter it shal better appeare . Pope Honorius was condemned for an Heretique in two General Councelles . Concil. Constantinop . 6. Acti . 13. Alphons li. 1. ca 4 In Legenda Hilarij . In the Councel of Constantinople the woordes of his condemnation be alleged thus : Synod . Romana . in Fasciculo rerum sciendarum impresso Coloniae . 1553. Anathematizari curauimus Honorium , qui fuerat Papa Antiquae Romae : quia in omnibus mentem Sergij sequutus est , & impia dogmata confirmauit : Wee haue caused Honorius , that late Pope of olde Rome , to be accursed : for that in al thinges he folowed the minde of Sergius the Heretique , and confirmed his wicked Doctrine . Alphonsus de Castro saithe , Anastasium Papam fauisse Nestorianis , qui Historias legerit , non dubitat : Who so euer hath readde the stories , or course of time , cannot doubt , but Pope Anastasius fauoured the Nestorian Heretiques . In the very Legende of Hilarius it is mentioned , that Pope Leo was an Arian Heretique . In a Synode holden at Rome against Pope Hildebrande , it is written thus , Incendio tradidimus Decreta eorum Heretica : Wee haue burnte their Heretical Decrees . Iohannes Stella Venetus . Pope Syluester . 2. was made Pope by Necromancie , and in recompense thereof , Episto . Hulderici ad Nicolaum Papam . promised him selfe both Body , & Soule vnto the Diuel . Huldericus y● Bishop of Augusta in Germanie , expresseth the Restrainte of Priestes Marriage by these woordes , Periculosum huius Haeresis Decretum : The dangerous Decree of this Heresie . Notwithstanding I haue séene the same Epistle vnto P. Nicolas , Erasm . in Annotation . in Epist. ad Galat. Cap. 2. In faciem illi restiti . togeather with an other Epistle to like purpose , written in olde Veleme of very Ancient Recorde , vnder the name of Volusianus the Bishop of Carthage ? But what néede wee to touche al the particulares ? The Doctoures of the Great Schole of Sorbona in Parise , haue determined in theire Articles , that S. Peter him self erred in the Faith . The Councel of Basile condemneth Pope Eugenius by these wordes : Eugenium contemptorem Sacrorum Canonum : Concil. Basilien . Sessione . 34. Pacis , & Veritatis Ecclesiae Dei perturbatorem notorium : Vniuersalis Ecclesiae Scandalizatorem : Simoniacum : Periurum : Incorrigibilem : Schismaticum : à Fide deuium : Pertinacem Haereticum , &c. Wee condemne , and depose Pope Eugenius , a despiser of the Holy Canons : a disturber of the Peace , and Vnitie of the Churche of God : a notorious offendoure of the whole Vniuersal Church : a Simoniste : a Foresworne man : a man Vncorrigible : a Schismatique : a man fallen from the Faithe : and a wilful Heretique . Of Pope Iohns Heresie , touching the Immortalitie of the Soule , 24. Q. 3. Haeresis . In Conc. Constantien . in Appendice , Ca. In primis . Quinimò idem Iohan. Pp. 22. dixit , et pertinaciter credidit , animam hominis cum Corpore humano mori , & extingui , ad instar animalium brutorum . wee shal speke more hereafter . S. Hierome saithe , Qui Scripturam intelligit aliter , quàm sensus Spiritus Sancti flagitat , quo scripta est , licet ab Ecclesia non recesserit , tamen Haereticus appellari potest : Who so euer otherwise vnderstandeth the Scriptures , then the sense of the Holy Ghoste requireth , by whom they were written , ( as , it is moste certaine , the Pope in infinite places bothe hath donne , and dothe ) although he be not departed from the Churche , yet he maie wel be called an Heretique .

Now , if Idolaters , Montanistes , Arians , Monothelites , Nestorians , Deniers of the Immortalitie , Simonistes , Sorcerers , Maineteiners of Filthinesse , & other Obstinate , and Wilful Heretiques maie erre , then , what so euer M. Hardinge , & his Felowes shal saie to the contrarie , it is easily seene , that the Pope maie erre .

Verily the Councel of Basile saithe thus , Multi è Summis Pontificibus in Haereses , & Errores lapsi esse dicuntur , & leguntur : Certum est , Papam Errare posse : Concilium saepè condemnauit , atque deposuit Papam , tam ratione Fidei , quàm Morum : It is reported , and readde , that many Popes haue fallen into Errours , & Heresies : It is certaine , that the Pope maie erre : The Councel hath oftentimes condemned , and remoued y● Pope , in respecte , as wel of his Heresie in Faith , as of his lewdenesse in life . Concil. Basilien . inter Epist. Synodales . visellius . 24. Q. 1. A rectas In Glossa . Visellus saithe , Summorum Pontificum quidam pestilenter errauerunt : Certaine of the Bishoppes of Rome haue benne in Pestilente Heresies . Your owne Glose saith , Certum est , quòd Papa Errare potest : It is certaine , that y● Pope maie erre . An other of your Doctoures saithe , Interdum possit aliquis esse , qui esst à Sede remouendus : vt si esset Foemina , vel Hereticus : sicut fuerunt aliqui : & ob hoc non numerantur in Catalogo Paparum : The Pope maie sommetimes be sutche a one , as maie seeme woorthy to be remoued : Iohan. De Parisijs , de potesiat . Regia & Pap. Heruaeus de potesta . Pp. Cap. 18. Gerson , Anliceat appellare à Pp. Hostien de Concessione Praebendae . Proposuit . Extra . de Electione . Significasti . Abb. as if he were a Wooman , or an Heretique : And certaine sutch there haue benne : and therefore thei be not reckened in the Calendare of the Popes . An other saith , Aliqui Papae inuenti sunt flagitiosi , & Haeretici : Somme Popes haue benne founde wicked menne , and Heretiques . An other saithe , Et Papa , & Episcopi sunt deuiabiles à Fide : Both Popes , and Bishoppes maie wander from the Faithe . An other saith , Papa mandans , aliquid fieri , quod sonet in Haeresim , turbat statum Ecclesiae , & non est ei parendum : The Pope commaundinge any thing to be donne , that soundeth of Heresie , troubleth the state of the Churche : and we maie not obeie him . An other saithe , Papa potest else Haereticus , & de Haeresi iudicari : The Pope maie be an Heretique , and of Heresie maie be iudged .

Al these were the Popes vndoubted frendes . But now let vs heare the Pope him self . Pope Pius . 2. otherwise called Aeneas Syluius , saith thus : Quid si criminosus Papa contraria Fidei praedicet , Haereticisque Dogmatibus imbuat Subditos ? What if a notorious wicked Pope teache thinges contrarie to the Faithe , and with Heretical Doctrine peruerte his Subiectes ?

I would not stand so long in so cleare a case , were it not , that M. Harding , al this notwithstandinge , telleth vs so sadly , and biddeth vs beleue it vpon his warrante , that the Pope vndoubtedly can neuer erre . Stanislaus Hosius , the greatest stickler of that side , Hosius in Confessione Petricouion . Cap. 29. Alphons . Contra Haeres . li. 1. ca. 4. blussheth not to saie thus , Numerentur omnes , &c. Recken al the Popes , that euer were , from Peter , vntil this Iulius , that now is : There neuer sate in this Chaire any Arian , any Donatiste , any Pelagian , or any other , that professed any manner Heresie . Yet neuerthelesse , your owne Doctour Alphonsus saithe , Non credo , aliquem esse adeò Impudentem Papae Assentatorem , vt ei tribuere hoc velit , vt nec Errare , nec in Interpretatione Sacrarum Literarum hallucinari possit : I beleue , ther 〈◊〉 so shamelesse a Flatterer of the Pope , that wil graunte him this Prerogatiue , that he can neuer erre , nor be deceiued in the expoundinge of the Scriptures . Here , M. Hardinge , your owne principal Doctoure Alphonsus calleth al them , that mainteine your Doctrine , and saie , as you saie , The shamelesse Flatterers of the Pope . Certainely , I thinke , it maie safely be said : If a man wil take the viewe of al Christendome , he shal not find so many Heretiques in any one See , what so euer , as maie be found in the See of Rome . Franc. Petrarch . Epist. 20. And , for the cause , perhaps . Franciscus Petrarcha calleth Rome Asylum Haeresum , & Errorum : The Sainctuarie of Errours , and Heresies : And in his Italian Sonetres he calleth it , The Schole of Erroure , and the Temple of Heresie .

As for Nicolaus Lyra , yée doubte of our dealinge , for that the Printer hath not quoted the place . Schola di Errori , e Tempio di Eresia . It maie please you therefore to peruse his notes vpon the xvi . Chapter of S. Mathewe . There emonge other ye shal finde these woordes : Nicol. Lyra in Matthae . Cap. 16. Ex hoc patet , quo'd Ecclesia non consistit in hominibus , ratione Potestatis , vel Dignitatis Ecclesiasticae , vel Saecularis : Quia multi principes , & Summi Pontifices inuenti sunt apostatasse à Fide : Hereby it appeareth , that the Church standeth not in men , in consideration , either of theire Power , or of theire Dignitie , either Ecclesiastical , or Temporal . For many Princes , and Popes haue benne founde to haue straied from the Faithe . Baldus de offic. praesid . L. Saepe . Therefore Baldus saithe , Cautela est , quo'd quis dicat , Credo , quod credit Sancta Mater Ecclesia : non , quod credit Papa : It is to be marked , that a man many saie , I beleue , that the Churche beleueth : but not , I beleue , that the Pope beleueth . Yée saie , Christe praied for Peter : Ergo , the Pope cannot erre . But where was Christes Praier then , when so many Heretiques were Popes in Rome ? Wil yée saie , that Christe praied for Arians , for Nestorians , for Montanistes , for Monothelites , for Simonistes , for Idolaters , for Necromancers , for Poisoners , for Murtherers , & for Dame Iohane too ? Or , that by the vertue of Christes Praier , none of these could euer Erre ? Or , that the Popes Erroures must goe for Truthe , or his Heresies be holden as Right Religion , onely bicause you telle vs , that , what so euer he saie , He cannot Erre ? O M. Hardinge , I shewed you before , y● Christe praied , not onely for Peter , but also for al the reste of his Disciples . Origen saithe , as he is before alleged , Orig. in Matth. Tractat. 2. Num audebimus dicere , quo'd aduersus vnum Petrum non praeualiturae sint Porrae Inferorum : aduersus coeteros Apostolos praeualiturae sint ? Shal wee dare to san● that the Gates of Helle shal not preuaile againste onely Peter ? and that the same Gates shal preuaile against al other the Apostles ? Cyprian . in Orationem Dominicam . S. Cyprian saith , Rogabat pro delictis nostris , sicut iple declarat , cùm dicit ad Petrum : Ego Rogaui pro te , ne deficiat Fides tua : Christe praied ( not for Peter onely , but ) for our sinnes , as he him selfe declareth , saieing vnto Peter , I haue praied for thee , that thy Faith should not faile . S. Augustine , expounding the same woordes , Aug. De Verbis Domi. secund. Lucam Sern . 36 Chryso . in Matthae . Homil. 33. saithe thus : Ego rogaui Patrem pro vobis , ne deficiat Fides vestra : I haue praied ( not onely for Peter , but also ) for you , that your Faith shoulde not faile . Chrysostome saithe , Omnis Christianus , qui suscipit Verbum Petri , Thronus fit Petri : & petrus sedet in co : Euery Christian man , that receiueth the word of Peter , is made Peters Chaire : and Peter him selfe sitteth in him .

Otherwise , M. Hardinge , they are not al Peters , that sitte in place of Peter . S. Ambrose saithe , Ambros . De Poeniten . Li. 1. Ca. ● . Hierony . in Sophontam . Cap. 1. Pope Liberius . Non habent Haereditatem Petri , qui Fidem Petri non habent : They haue not Peters Enheritance , that haue not the Faithe of Peter .

S. Hierome saith , Auferet Dominus nomina vanae gloriae , & admirationis falsae , quae versantur in Ecclesia : God wil take a waie these names of vaine Glorie , and false ostentation , that are vsed in the Churche .

Where wée saie , Pope Liberius fauoured the Arians , that , ye saie , is starke false . And yet , Hieron De Eccl. Scriptorib . In Fortunatiano . yée knowe , S. Hierome is the reporter of that falsehed . But S. Hierome , ye saie , was deceiued . In sutche Reuerence , and Regarde yée haue the Doctoures , and Learned Fathers of the Churche . Yee beleue them no further , then yée liste . I doubte not , but S. Hierome might better saie , M. Hardinge is deceiued . Certainely ? Alphonsus , your owne Doctoure , saith , De Liberio Papa , Constat fuisse Arianum : Touchinge Pope Liberius , Alphons . Contra Haeres . li. 1. ca. 4. Platy . in Liberio . Antonin . Par. 2. Tit. 10. ca. 4. ● 5. Iouerius . it is wel knowen , he was an Arian . Platyna saith , Liberius , vt quidam volunt , in rebus omnibus sensit cum Haereticis : Pope Liberius , as somme saie , was in al pointes of one iudgemente with the ( Arian ) Heretiques .

Antoninus the Archebishop of Florence , saith , Liberius Papa consensit praeceptis Augusti ( Ariani ) vt vnà cum Haereticis Communicaret : Pope Liberius so consented to the Commaundementes of the Arian Emperoure , that he communicated with the Heretiques . Herman Gigas . Historta Longobardica . So saithe louerius in the Abbriedgement of Councelles : So saith Hermannus Gigas : so saith your very Legende , commonly called Historia Longobardica . Emong others , Erasmus saith , Ariana Haeresis , & Romanum Pontificem inuoluit , Erasm . in Annotationib . in Hieronym . Contra Lucifertan . & ipsos Imperatores : The Arians Heresi entangled , and wrapt bothe Pope and Emperoure . By the Pope namely he meaneth Liberius . Yet you doubte not to saie , S. Hierome was shamefully deceiued , and wrote of ignorance , he knewe not what .

Likewise , yée saie , That wee reporte of Pope Iohn , is moste false . Our reporte is , Pope Iohn . That Pope Iohn denied the Immortalitie of the Soule : not thorowly , and altogeather , but onely in that he saide , Vntil the time of the Laste Iudgement , the Soule lieth stil , as in a traunse , as doothe the body , without sense of ioie , or paine . Wherein he , not onely withstoode the expresse Woorde of God , but also vnwares quite ouerthrewe his owne whole Kingedome of Purgatorie , which is the greatest , & fairest of al his three Crownes . For what auaile his Pardonnes , & Trentalles , if the soule lie stil a sléepe vntil the daie of Iudgement , & feele no paine ? Verily , after the laste Iudgement , by common consente , there shal be no Purgatorie . Nowe , if there be no place of Purgatorie , neither before , nor after the laste Iudgement , then maie wée wel conclude , that absolutely , & without doubte there is no Purgatorie . The firste Authours of this erroure , Augustin . Ad Quoduultdeum . Gerson in Sermone Paschali . Copus Dialog. 1. Pag. 50. as S. Augustine saithe , were the Heretiques called Arabici . Touchinge Pope Iohns erroure , Gerson saithe thus , Iohannes Papa . 22. decreuit , &c. Pope Iohn. 22. decreed , that the Soules of the wicked should not be pounished , before the daie of the laste Iudgemente : whiche erroure the Vniuersitie of Parise condemned for Heresie , and caused the Pope to recante . One of your owne Companions of Louaine saith , Pope Iohn keapte this erroure secretely to him selfe , and neuer had the open consent of the Churche of Rome . And , for better excuse hereof , he saithe , Pag. 51. Petrus , non Fidem Christi , sed Christum , salua Fide , negauit : Peter denied , not the Faith of Christe , but , his Faith saued , he denied nomore but Christe . And so , by this prety shifte of your Louanian Diuinitie , yée haue bothe Christe without Faithe , & also Faithe without Christe . Thus , M. Hardinge , it is plaine by your owne Doctoures , & Felowes , that our reporte of Pope Iohn is neither a false sclaunder , as you saie , Pope Zosimus . nor proceedeth of detestable , and wicked malice .

For the reste , yée saie , wee belie Pope Zosimus . He corrupted not the Councel of Nice . Artic 4. Diui. 6. Concil. Aphric . Can. 101. For trial whereof , I referre mee selfe to my Former Replie vnto your Answeare . Certainely , what so euer learned man wil stande in denial hereof , he must néedes want coloure in his face . The fraude was notoriously found , & detected to the whole world by the Ancient Learned Fathers . An Epistle forged vnder thename of Athanasius . The Councel of Nice corrupted . Cyrillus , & Articus , the one being Patriarke of Alexandria , the other of Antioche , and was reproued , and published by twoo hundred , and seuenteene Bishoppes , openly in the Councel of Aphrica . The peeuishe forged Epistle , that yée allege vnder the name of the Learned Godly Father Athanasius , The fantastical burninge of the Canons of Nice without fire , with other your like childishe vanities , scarcely méete for children to plaie withal , are likewise answeared .

One of your owne Louanian companie confesseth , In the Replie . Artic. 4. Diui. 6. that in the late Councel of Florence , the Greekes there made open complainte , that the Bishop of Rome had corrupted the Canons of the Councel of Nice . Alypius the Bishop of Tagastā , speakinge hereof in the Councel of Carthage , saith thus : Adhuc tamen me mouet , quoniam cùm inspiceremus Graeca Exemplaria huius Synodi Nicenae , Copus Pag. 78. Concil. Florent . Sessione . 20. ista ibi , nescio , qua ratione , minimè inuenimus : Yet this thing moueth mee , that when wee examined , and conferred the Originalles of the Nicene Councel , written in Greeke , I knowe not , Concil. Carthaginen . 6. Cap. 4. Epist. Bonifacij 2 ad Eulalium . by what meanes , thiese thinges wee founde not there .

Yet Pope Bonifacius , to saue the Credite of the See of Rome , was forced to saie , and publishe openly , that the saide Alypius , and Aurelius the Bishop of Carthage , & S. Augustine the Bishop of Hippo , and two hundred and fourteene other Bishoppes , that had espied , and reueled this falsehedde , were al enflamed , & leadde by the Diuel . Copus , Pag. 93. And one of your owne suddaine Doctoures of Louaine saithe , Haec omnia , tanquam somnia , tamquam fabulae , tanquam superflua , abolita , antiquata , calcata sunt : Al these Decrees ( of these Councelles , of Carthage , and Aphrica ) are abolished , and repealed , and trodden vnder foote , as Dreames , and Fables , and thinges superfluous . This , M. Hardinge , is the weighinge of your Councelles . If they like you , they are the expresse Voices of the Holy Ghoste : If they like you not , they are Dreames , and Fables , and thinges Superfluous .

Camotensis , Iohan. Camotensis . yée saie , is somme woorshipful Doctour , sutch as by our owne iudgement , might passe in the Blacke garde . Yet was he a Bishop , M. Harding , in al respectes far better , than either your Leontius , or your Hippolytus , or your newe founde Clemens , whom yée cal the Apostles Felowe , or your vaine fable of Amphilochius . Yée woulde séeme to finde faulte with the name : & thinke , wée should not haue written , Camotensis , but rather , Iuo Carnotensis . Your gheasse yée shewe vs : but reason thereof yee shewe vs none . Yee might as wel haue saide , Fulbertus Carnotensis , who beinge very mutche consumed , and spente with sicknesse , as it is learnedly noted emonge other your Verities , for a restoratiue , suckte our Ladies breaste , and by vertue thereof was made whole . Yée might likewise haue gheased , it had benne Io. Sarisburiensis , Hermann . Rid. 10. Sarisburien . in Polycratico . Corne . Agrippa , De vanit . Scientiarum . otherwise called by somme , Rupertus Carnotensis . For he saithe , In Ecclesia Romana sedent Scribae , & Pharisaei : In the Churche of Rome sitte the Scribes , and the Phariseis . But in déede , this Writers name is Iohannes Camotensis , alleged by Cornelius Agrippa . His woordes be these : Angelis praecipiunt : potestatem habent in Mortuos : Vim faciunt Scripturis , vt habeant Plenitudinem Potestatis . Ipse Papa iam factus est intolerabilis . Eius pompam , & fastum nullus Tyrannorum vnquam ae quauit . Legati Romanorum Pontificum sic bacchantur in Prouincijs , acsi ad flagellandam Ecclesiam sathan egressus sit à facie Domini : Thei saie theire Commaundementes vpon the Angels of God : They haue power vpon the Deade : Thei wreast , and racke the Scriptures , that they maie haue the Fulnesse of Power . The Pope him selfe is nowe becomme vntolerable . No Tyran was euer hable to matche him in Pompe , and Pride . The Popes Legates keepe sutche reuel in Kindomes , and Countries , as if Sathan were sente abroade from the face of the Lorde , to scourge the Churche . This is not your Iuo Carnotensis : It is Iohannes Camotensis : And this is his iudgemente of your Churche of Rome .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 1.

What wil ye saie , if the Popes Aduocates , Abbates , and Bishoppes dissemble not the mater , but shewe them selues open enimies to the Gospel , and , though thei see , yet wil not see , but wrie the Scriptures , and witingly , and knowingly corrupte , and countrefeite the Woorde of God , and fouly , and wickedly applie to the Pope , al the same thinges , whiche euidently , and properly be spoken of the Personne of christe onely , nor by no meanes can be applied to any other ? Host . cap. Quanto . And what though they saie , The Pope is al , and aboue al ? Or , Abbas Panor . de Elect. ca. Venerabilis . That the Pope can doo asmutche , as christe can doo : and , That one iudgement place , and one councel House serueth for the Pope , and for christe , bothe togeather ? Or , That the Pope is the same Lighte , Cornelius Episcopus , in Concil. Tridentino . whiche should comme into the worlde : Whiche woordes christe spake of him selfe alone : and , That , who so is an euil doer , hateth , and flieth from that Lighte ? Or , that al the other Bishoppes haue receiued of the Popes Fulnesse ?

M. Hardinge .

You haue neuer donne with your what ifs . Your interpreter good Gentil woman , that fauoureth your pleasant Diuinitie so muche , seemeth to be weary of it . her selfe . For here shee tourneth your , Quid si , into what will ye saie , if . And nowe Syr , doo you demaunde of vs , as Madame Interpreter maketh you to speake , what we will saie . Forsooth , for this you alleage against the Popes aduocates , Abbattes , and Bishoppes , we saie , that the moste parte is very false , and slaunderous : somewhat maie be taken for truthe in a right sense . As for the aduocates , I minde not to be their Aduocate , Hostiensis . Panormitanus . neither haue they neede of my helpe . Let them answeare one for an other : Hostiensis for Abbot Panormitan , and he for Hostiensis . In good sooth were those excellent men at this daie liuing , I thinke verely , they would not doo you that honoure , as to answere you them selues . Or if they would vouchesaue to doo so muche , I doubt not , but they woulde make shorte woorke with you , and take you vp roundly for haltinge , with one woorde , Mentitis , dasshinge all your allegations . Which woorde in your Diuinitie is a verbe Commune .

Thus leauinge Hostiensis , and Panormitan to defence of the Canonistes , tellinge you by the waie that in questions of Diuinitie wee stande not alwaies to their saieinges : Cornelius Episcopus Bitontinus . wee answeare you on the behalfe of Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto in Italie , ( for him ye meane , I suppose , puttinge in your margent the name of Cornelius onely ) that he neuer saide , * * Vntruthe , blasphemouse , vnaduisedly defended . For the woordes be plaine , papa Lux venit in Mundum . the Pope is the Lighte , whiche shoulde come into the worlde , in that sense , as it is spoken of Christe . If you were hardely charged to shewe , where he saide it , or where be wrote it , * you would be founde a lier , as in many other pointes you are founde already . That he neuer wrote it in any of his eloquent Italian Sermons , set foorthe in Printe , I am assured . And more hath he not set foorth . Now it remaineth , that you tell vs where he saithe so , * or els confesse your slaunderous lie .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Where yée saie , M. Hardinge , as , I thinke , yee haue learned of a childe , that , Mentiris , is a Verbe Common , if ye holde on , as yee haue begonne , ye wil shortely alter the Propertie therof to your selfe , & make it hencefoorthe a verbe Priuate . Touchinge Hostiensis , and Panormitane , I wil saie nothinge , but onely referre you to the places .

As for Cornelius the Bishop of Bitonto , for as mutche as , contrarie to your Nature , yee pleade ignorance , and saie , yee cannot finde the place , reade therefore these woordes in his Oration , openly pronounced in your late Chapter at Tridente : Quis erit tam iniustus rerum aestimator , Concil. Trident. sub . Paulo . 3. qui non dicat , Papa Lux venit in Mundum : sed dilexerunt homines Tenebras magis quam Lucem . Omnis , qui malè agit , Oratio Cornelij Episcopi Bitontini . odit Lucem : & non venit ad Lucem : vt non arguantur opera eius , quia mala sunt : Who wil so vniuslely weight thinges , but he wil saie , The Pope is the Light , that is comme into the worlde ? But menne haue loued darkenesse , more then ( the Pope , that is ) the Lighte . Who so euer doothe euil , hateth the Lighte : and commeth not to the Lighte : leste his woorkes should be discoured , for that they be euil .

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 2.

Shortely , what though they make Decrees expressely againste Goddes Woorde , and that not in hucker mucker , or couertly , but openly , and in the face of the worlde : muste it needes yet be Gospel streight , what so euer they saie ? Shal these be Goddes Holy Armie ? Or , wil Christe be at hande amonge them there ? Shal the Holy Ghoste flowe in theire tongues , or can they with truthe saie , Wee , and the Holy Ghoste haue thought so ?

M. Hardinge .

After a greate meany of your foolishe and false what ifs , you conclude shortly , with What if , they make decrees expressely againste Goddes Woorde , and that openly in the face of the Worlde ? Hereto we answeare , requitinge your what if , with an other what if , and saie , What if the Learned and holy Fathers , &c.

The Apologie , Cap. 6. Diuision . 3.

In deede Peter Asotus , and his companion Hosius , sticke not to affirme , Hosius contra Brentium , Lib. 2. that the same Councel , wherein our Saueour Iesus christe was condemned to die , had bothe the Sprite of Prophesieinge , and the Holy Ghoste , and the Sprite of Truthe : and , that it was neither a false , nor a triflinge saieinge , when those Bishoppes saide , Wee haue a Lawe , and by our Lawe he ought to die : and , that they , so saieinge , did lighte vpon the very Truthe of Iudgemente ( for so be Hosius woordes ) and , that the same plainely was a iuste Decree , whereby they pronounced , that Christe was woorthy to die . This , me thinketh , is straunge , that these menne are not hable to speake for them selues , and to defende their owne cause , but thei muste also take parte with Annas , & Caiphas . For , if they wil cal that a lauful , and a good Councel , wherein the Sonne of God was moste shamefully condemned to die , what Councel wil thei then allowe for false , and naughte ? And yet ( as al their Councelles , to saie truthe , commonly be ) necessitie compelled them , to pronounce these thinges of the Councel holden by Annas , and Caiphas .

M. Hardinge .

Suche vnhonest toies better become Brentius , that shamelesse railinge Heretike . Now to you , Syr Defender . You belie Hosius , as Brentius of whom you borowed this , belied the Reuerente Father Peter ae Soto . Either you haue readen the place of Hosius , or you haue not . If you haue not , then are you to blame , to saie so mutche euill , that you knowe not . If you haue readen the place , then is your faulte plaine malice , in puttinge that to Hosius , the contrary whereof you finde in the place by your selfe alleaged by which you leade vs , as it were by the hande , to beholde and consider your owne dishonestie . How iuste cause you haue to reprehende Hosius , for that he wrote againste Brentius in defence of Petrus a Soto , touchinge the Councell in whiche Christe was condemned by Caiphas , it shoulde beste appeare to him , that woulde reade the whole place , where Hosius treateth that matter . The same would I here haue rehearsed , to the discoueringe of your false dealinge , and shamelesse lieing , were not the same very longe . The Sprite of Truthe in Annas , and Caiphas .

Firste , this is the Truthe , touchinge the whole * * A discrete , and a woorthy proctoure . The Actes were naught , and the sentence good . The Sentence was , That Christ should die the deathe . The Actes of those Priestes of the Iewes Synagog were wicked , and contrary to Christe . * But their Sentence , though them selues were neuer so euil , was not onely true , but also to mankinde most profitable . And S. Iohn in his Gospell wi●nesseth , it was the oracle of God . For when after longe deliberation of the Councell , Caiphas the highe Bishop and president of that Councell , had pronounced his sentence , whereunto all the reste almost gaue their consente , Ioan. 19. It is expedient for vs , that one man die for the people , and not that all the Nation perishe : the Euangeliste thereto added his verdite , sayinge , This he saide , not of him selfe , but whereas he was highe Bishop of that yere , he Prophecied . Therefore let this be the true conclusion of the whole matter . The actes of that councell were wicked , the sentence was true and good . Nowe Hosius treateth this matter so learnedly , and so substantially , as you can not truely take any aduantage of his woordes to reprehende him . He stateth him selfe vpon the Scripture , a good grounde to stande vpon . Whiche Scripture referreth doubt full , and harde questions to the Priestes of the Leuiticall order . Of whome it is saide , Indicabunt tibi Iudicij Veritatem : ‡ ‡ This Truthe of Iudgemente was , That the Sonne of God was a Blahpsemer , and had de●●rued to die . They shal shewe vnto thee the Truth of Iudgement . In this iudgement , saieth Hosius , though it were neuer so wicked , yet was the truthe of iudgement . How that might be , there he proueth it to Brentius by moste manifest argumentes .

Where ye impute to Hosius , to haue saide , that the same plainely was a iuste decree , * * Vntruthe For thus saide Caiphas : And his Iudgemente Hosius defendeth , as true , and godly . whereby they pronounced that Christe was woorthy to die , that is your slaunderous lie , not Hosius saieinge . * For he saieth the cleane contrary , and that sundry times , that it was a wicked Councell , and moste vniuste decree . God forebidde any Christen man should saie , that Christe was woorthy to die . ‡ ‡ Christe , by Hosius Iudgemente , was guilty of death . He saithe , it might haue benne truely pronounced by Caiphas , that he was gilty of deathe . And there he sheweth how , very religiously , and wisely admonishinge the reader , that he was moste innocent , and deserued not to die . And thus , Syr , you may see , we take not parte with Annas , and Caiphas , as you raile , and yet be able , God be thanked , to defende our true cause , and declare you to the worlde to be false teachers . Therefore belie vs no more .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Good Christian Reader , this whole mater concerneth onely the credite , and certainetie of General Councelles . Sotus , and Hosius saie , what so euer is determined in Councel , must be taken , as the vndoubted Iudgemente , and Woorde of God . Hereunto the Godly Learned Father , Iohannes Brentius , replieth thus , Councelles sommetimes haue erred , and haue vtterly wanted the Sprite of God : as it maie appeare by that in a Councel the Sonne of God was condemned , and iudged to die the deathe . Hosius answeareth , When Annas , and Caiphas sate as Presidentes in the Councel , and Christe the Sonne of God , was by them condemned to die , yet neuerthelesse the same Councel had the assistance of the Holy Ghoste , and the vndoubted Sprite of Truthe . For , Hosius , Li. 2. contra Brentium . speakinge of the same Councel , he saithe thus , Vides , Brenti , quemadmodum non defuerit Sacerdotio Leuitico Spiritus Propheticus , Spiritus Sanctus , Spiritus Veritatis : Yee see , frende Brentius , how that the Leuitical Priesthoode ( that pronounced sentence of deathe against Christe ) wanted not the Sprite of Prophesie , the Holy Ghoste , Pagi . 62. b. the Sprite of Truthe . Againe he saithe , Ex quo tempore Primus Parens noster de vento ligno gustauit , factus est Mortis Reus Christus Dei , &c. Nec falsum fuit illud , Pagi . 63. a. quod dixerunt , Nos legem habemus , & secundum Legem hanc debet mori : From the tune , that oure Firste Father tasted of the forebidden fruite Christe the Sonne of God became guilty of deathe : Neither was it false , that the Iewes saide , Wee haue a Lawe , and accordinge to that Lawe he ought to die . With this Sprite , I trowe , he was inspired , that wrote this Marginal Note vpon your Decrees , Iudaei mortaliter peccassent , Dist. 13. Item . In Margine . nisi Christum Crucifixissent : The lewes had committed mortal sinne , if they had not nailed Christe vnto the Crosse . Againe , Hosius saithe , Hosius contra Brent . Pag. 63. b Nulla esse potest tanta Pontificum improbitas , quae impedire queat , quo ' minùs vera sit illa Dei Promissio , Qui indicabunt tibi Iudicij Veritatem : Be the wickednesse of Bishoppes neuer so greate , it can neuer hinder , but that this promisse of God shal euer be true , The Bishoppes shal shewe thee the truthe of Iudgemente .

This therefore , M. Hardinge , is your Doctoures meaninge : It is sufficiente , that Bishoppes onely méete in Councel . God wil supplie al the reste . What so euer they determine , the Holy Ghoste wil assist them : they cannot erre . Al this is as true , as that Hosius your Doctoure saithe , Annas , and Caiphas coulde not erre in pronouncinge Sentence of deathe againste Christe .

But , for excuse hereof , sommewhat to salue a festry mater , yée tel vs a longe tedious tale , without heade , or foote : & that your Reader maie thinke , yée saie somewhat , ye crie out alowde , Shamelesse railinge Heretiques : Wee belie Hosius : wee belie Sotus : Our false dealinge : our shamelesse lieinge : wee are impudente , and continewe in lieinge . These , M. Hardinge , be the proufes , and groundes of your Doctrine , and the moste sauerie , and fairest Floures in your garlande .

The substance of your tale is this : The Actes of the Councel , where Christe was condemned , were lewde , and wicked : But the Sentence of deathe pronounced by the Bishoppes against Christe , was iuste , and true . And thus by your dalliance in darke woordes , and by your blinde Distinction , bitweene Acte , and Sentence , yée seeke shiftes , to mocke the worlde . Yée shoulde plainely haue tolde vs , what were these Sentences : and what were these Actes : and what greate difference yee canne espie bitweene Acte , and Sentence : or , when euer yee hearde of Sentence in Iudgemente without Acte : or , of perfite Acte without Sentence : or , howe the Sentence of the Iudge maie be true , if the Acte be false : or , how the Acte maie be righte , if the Sentence be wronge . For your credites sake , leaue these toies , M. Hardinge . Yee haue vsed them ouer longe . They are too childishe for a childe : they becomme not your grauitie : they deceiue the simple .

In deede , I can easily beleeue , that neither Sotus , nor Hosius was euer so wicked , to saie , that Christe was rightly , and worthily donne to deathe . How be it , he , that saithe , The sentence of deathe , pronounced in Councel againste Christe , was iuste , and true , seemeth in deede to saie no lesse . The very case , and course of your Doctrine vndoubtedly forced them thus to saie . For , if al Councelles be good , and Holy , without exception , then muste that also be a good , and a Holy Councel , that was assembled againste God , and againste his Christe .

Hosius your Doctours , Hosius in Confessione Petricouien . Ca. 29. to make the mater plaine , saithe thus , Iudásne sit , an Petrus , an Paulus , Deus attendi not vult : Sed solùm hoc , quo'd sedet in Cathedra Petri : quo'd Apostolus : quo'd Christi Legatus : quo'd Angelus est Domini exercituum : de cuius ore Legem requirere iussus es . Hoc solùm spectari vult . Si Iudas est , quandoquidem Apostolus est , nihil te moueat , quo'd Fur est : God wil neuer haue thee consider , whether the Pope be a Iudas , or a Peter , or a Paule . It is sufficiente , onely that he sitteth in Peters Chaire : that he is an Apostle : that he is christes Embassadoure : that he is the Angel of the Lorde of Hostes : from whose mouthe thou arte commounded to require the Lawe . This thinge onely Christe would haue thee to consider . Be it Iudas : for as mutche as he is an Apostle , let it not moue thee , though he be a Theefe .

But Caiphas saide , It is good , that one man die for the people , leste al the people perishe . Ergo , saie you , Caiphas had the Sprite of God . Alas , M. Hardinge , although you litle passe for your Diuinitie , yet why haue you nomore regarde vnto your Logique ? Euery childe knoweth , that this is a Paralogismus , or a deceiteful kinde of reasoninge , called Fallacia Accidentis . And , that yee maie the better espie your ouersight , Like as yée saie , Caiphas prophesied blindely , him selfe not vnderstandinge , what he saide , Ergo , he had the Holy Ghoste :

Euen so maie yée saie , Balaams Asse reproued his maister , and spake the Truthe , as Caiphas did . Ergo , Balaams Asse had the Holy Ghoste . S. Paule saithe , No man can saie , The Lorde Iesus , but in the Sprite of God . Hereof , by your Logique , yée maie reason thus : The Diuel saide vnto Christe , I knowe , that thou arte Christe the Sonne of the Liuinge God : 1. Corin. 12. Ergo , the Diuel had the Sprite of God .

It pitieth me , M. Hardinge , to sée your folies . Although Caiphas vnwares , and against his wil , by the enforcemente , & power of God , at one onely time spake woordes of Truthe , as did also Balaams Asse , and the Diuel , yet it foloweth not , that wée should therefore at al times renne to Caiphas , to séeke the Truthe .

S , Augustine saithe , August . Epist. 58. Quando Deus voluit , etiam mutum iumentum rationabiliter loquutum est . Nec ideo ' admoniti sunt homines , in deliberationibus suis , etiam Asinina expectare Consilia : When it pleased God , Balaams Asse , beinge a doum be beaste , was hable to speake , as a man . Yet are not menne therefore commaunded , in al their Consultations , and doubteful cases to seeke Counsel of an Asse .

As for the Lies , Shames , and Sclaunders , yée would so liberally laie vpon vs , it maie please you , to take them fréely home againe . If yée be ful freight , and haue stoare sufficiente of your owne , yet maie you diuide them emonge your poore Louanian Brethren . It shal be a woorke of Supererogation . For yewisse , thei haue of their owne yenough already . To conclude , your whole drifte herein is , to force your Reader , to haue a good opinion of Annas , & Caiphas , that condemned Christe , to die the deathe : for that , as Hosius saithe , they had the Sprite of Prophesie , the Holy Ghoste , and the Sprite of Truthe : and therefore coulde not erre in their Iudgemente .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 1.

But wil these menne ( I saie ) refourme vs the Churche , beinge themselues bothe the Personnes guilty , & the Iudges to ? Wil they abate their owne Ambition , and their Pride ? Wil they ouerthrowe their owne causes , & geeue sentence againste them selues , that they must leaue of to be vnlearned Bishoppes , Slowbellies , Heapers togeather of Benefices , takers vpon them as Princes , and Menne of warre ? Wil the Abbates , the Popes deere darlinges iudge that Monke for a Theefe , whiche laboureth not for his liuinge : and that it is againste al lawe , to suffer sutche a one to liue , and to be founde either in Cittie , or in Countrie , al of other mennes charges ? Or els , that a Monke ought to lie on the grounde , to liue hardely with Hearbes , and Peason , to studie earnestly , to Argue , to Praie , to Woorke with hande , and fully to bende him selfe , to come to the Ministerie of the Churche ? In faithe , as soone wil the Phariseis , & Scribes repaire againe the Temple of God , and restore it vnto vs a House of Praier , in steede of a Denne of Theeues .

M. Hardinge .

Ye leape with a lighte skippe from one thinge to an other : neither dwell ye longe in any one pointe , but in lieinge .

But ye saie , they be bothe the persons giltie , and the Iudges also . Iudges doubtelesse they be . For their vocation is lawfull , ye cannot disproue it . Guilty also they be , we denie not : but whereof ? Of fraile liuinge , not of false teachinge . ( for commonly they teache nothinge ) . And where ? In the courte of conscience , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For their life is notorious to the worlde . not in the courte of man . Or if any of them be , bothe before this councell , and in this councell godly orders haue benne decreed for holesome reformation . Monkes , Freeres , Nunnes .

As for Monckes , ye maie not looke nowe , that either they gette their liuing onely by their hands labour , or that they be bounde to the harde discipline , which Monkes liued in , for twelue hundred yeres paste . Now be other daies , other manners . Suche great austeritie is to be wondred at , and to be wisshed for . But whether the Religious menne of our time be to be compelled thereto , I leaue it to wise consideration . If it maie be lawfull to direct vs in suche spirituall cases , by an olde example of externe prudencie , me thinketh the discretion of Iacobs answeare to his Brother Esau is woorth to be thought on . When ●sau courteously offered his brother Iacob recourninge from Mesopotamia with all his traine of householde and cattell , to goe with him , and keepe him companie , the reste of the iourney that remained from the place of their firste meetinge : Iacob full mildely saide , Syr , you know , if it like your Lordship , Gene. 33. that I haue here with me tender babes , * * M. Hardinge likeneth his Monkes to droaues of Cattel . ewes with lambe , * and Kine with calfe . If I ouerlabour them with faste goeinge , my flockes will die all in a daie . Maye it please your Lordship to goe before me your seruaunt : I will folowe after the flocke fayer and softe , so as I shal see my litle ones able to beare it .

Like wise if there be not a discrete moderation vsed . but al Monckes be rigorously driuen to the ausieritie of life , they liued in of olde time , in this so greate loosenesse of maners , specially the discipline of all religions beinge so farre slaked in comparison of the auncient seueritte : it is to be feared , wee shall rather see Cloisters foresaken ( whiche God graunte ) , then a Godly reformation procured ( whiche wil neuer be ) .

In the ende of this Paragraphe , ye shewe your selfe to despaire of our amendement . God geue you grace so to doo for your partes , as we maye haue good cause to hope better of you . But whether we amende our faultes , or other wise , what pertaineth that to the ●●stification of your newe Gospell , and to the disproufe of the Catholike Faithe by vs defended ? You k●●w , it is no good argumente à moribus ad doctrinam . Who would not hisse you and trampe you out of schooles , if ye made this fonde reason : The Papis●es liues be fauliy , Ergo their teachinge is false ? To this head all the reasons of your Apologie in effect maye be reduced : and they holde Per locum topicum noui Euangelij à malis moribus . ‡ ‡ Here M. Hardinge compareth the Popes , and his Bishops with the Scr●b●s and Phariseis . Dothe not Christe him selfe confute all suche your feble reasons , where he sateth . Matth. 23. The Scribes , and Phariseis sitte in the chayre of Moses : what so euer they saie to you , doo ye , but after their woorkes doo ye not ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Yée saie , If your Monkes , and Freeres shoulde now be forced to keepe the olde Discipline , and seueritie of their Fundations , they would rather breake their Closters , and leaue al togeather . And therefore by a fitte comparison , yée resemble them to the heauy droaues of Iacobs cattel . Whereby yee seeme secretely to geeue vs to imagine , that the Monkes cowle is not alwaies so holy a wo●de , as is pretended .

S. Hierome , discribinge the life , and order of Monkes in his time , saith thus , Nihil arrogant sibi de continentia supercilij . Hieronym . ad Marcellam , vt commigret Bethlehem . Humilitatis inter omnes contentio est . Quicunque nouissimus fuerit , hic primus putatur In veste nulla discretio : nulla admiratio . Vicunque placuerit incedere , nec deiractionis est , nec laudis leiunia neminem subleuant : nec defertur inediae : nec moderata saturitas condemnatur . Suo Domino stat vnusquisque , aut cadit . Nemo iudicat alterum , ne à Domino iudicetur : They bragge not of theire Sole , or single life . Al contention is , who maie be moste humble . Who so euer is laste , he is coumpted firste . There is neither difference , nor woonderinge in Apparel . Howe so euer it pleaseth a man to goe , he is neither sclaundered for it , nor commended . Noman is euanced for his Fastinge . Neither is abstinence praised , nor sobre refreassinge condemned . Eche man either standeth , or falleth to his Lorde . Noman iudgeth other , leaste of the Lorde he him selfe be Iudged .

But , yee saie , your Monkes now adaies are waxen nice , and cranke . Sutche extreeme rigoure , and seueritie they maie not beare .

Sutche Holy menne they were , Sulpitius Seuerus in Chronico . of whome Sulpitius Seuerus writeth : Sedentes munera expectant , atque omne vitae decus mercede corruptum habent : dum quasi venalem nalem prae se ferunt sanctimoniam : These Freeres sitte stil , and looke for monie : and haue al the bewtie of theire life corrupted with hiere , Hieronym . Ad Eustochium de Virginita . seruanda . settinge theire holinesse out to sale . Of sutche Holy Nunnes , S. Hierome telleth vs , Post Coenam dubiam Apostolos somniant : After they haue wel filled their bellies , they dreame of the Apostles . In like sorte , he writeth of certaine Monkes : Apud hos affectata sunt omnia : Laxae manicae : Caligae follicantes : Vestis crassior : Crebra suspiria : Visitatio Virginum : Detractio Clericorum . Et , In eadem Episto . ad Eustochium . si quando Dies Festus venerit , saturantur ad vomitum : Emonge these men , al thinges are countrefeite : Theire Wide sleeues : theire greate Bootes : theire course Gowne : theire often sighes : theire Visitinge of Virgines : theire backebitinge of Priestes . And , if there comme a Holy Daie , they eate , vntil they be faine to perbreake . This , no doubte , is that Holinesse , that Christe brought into the worlde .

But youre life , ye saie , is no preiudice to youre Faithe : Howe so euer you liue , yet is youre Doctrine right good , and Catholique . And that yee proue by the wordes of Christe : Matthae . 23. The Scribes , and Phariseis sitte on Moses Chaire . What so euer they saie to you , doo yee : but after theire woorkes , doo yee not . If this be the beste claime , ye can holde by , then suffer vs , M. Hardinge , to saie to you , as Christe sommetime saide to them , whome ye confesse to bee youre Fathers : Woe bee vnto you , yee scribes , In eod. Capite . and Phariseis , yee Hypocrites . Yee deuoure , and rauen vp poore Widowes houses , vnder the coloure of longe praier . Outwardely yee seeme Holy : But within yee are ful of Hypocrisie , and wickednesse .

The Valentinian Heretiques , in Olde times , vsed in like case to saie of them selues : Irenaeus . li. 1. ca. ● Quemadmodum aurum , in coeno depositum , non amittit decorem suum , ita dicunt , semeripsos , in quibuscunque materialibus operibus sint , nihil noceri , neque amittere Spiritualem Substantiam : As goulde , notwithstandinge it be laide in dounge , yet neuerthelesse keepeth his bewtie stil , So they saie of them selues , in what so euer corruptible woorkes they liue , yet are they neuer the woorse : nor can they lose the Spiritual Substance of theire Faithe . August . De morib. Manichae . li. 2. ca. 19. & 20. S. Augustine saithe vnto the Olde Heretiques , called the Manichees : Dicitis , non oportere omninò quaeri quales sunt homines , qui vestram Sectam profitentur : sed qualis sit ipsa Professio . Quid vobis fallacius , quid infidiosius , quid malitiosius dici , aut inueniti potest ? Yee saie , we maie not examine , what menne they bee , that professe your Secte : but onely , what is theire Profession . What thinge can there be founde more false , more deceiteful , more maliceous , then you are ?

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 2.

There haue benne , I knowe , certaine of theire owne companions , whiche haue founde faulte with many errours in the Churche , as Pope Adrian , Aeneas Syluius , Cardinal Poole , Pighius , and others , as is afore said : they helde afterwardes their Councel at Trident , in the self same place , where it is nowe appointed . There assembled many Bishoppes , and Abbates , and others , whom it behoued , for that matter . They were alone by them selues : what so euer they did , no body gainesaide it : for they hadde quite shutte out , and barred our side from al manner of Assemblies : & there they sate sixe yeres , feeding folkes with a maruilous expectation of their doinges . The first sixe Monethes , as though it were greatly needeful , they made many Determinations of the Holy Trinitie , of the Father , of the Sonne , & of the Holy Ghoste : whiche were godly thinges in deede , but not so necessarie for that time . Let vs see , in al that while , of so many , so manifeste , so often confessed by them , & so euident Errours , what one Erroure haue they amended ? The Freedome of the Councel of Trident . From what kinde of Idolatrie haue thei reclaimed the people ? What Superstition haue thei taken away ? What peece of their Tyrannie , and Pompe haue thei diminshed ? As though al the worlde maie not nowe see , that this is a Conspiracie , and not a Councel : and that these Bishoppes , whome the Pope hath nowe called togeather , be wholy sworne , and become bounde , to beare him theire faithful allegiaunce , and wil doo no manner of thinge , but that they perceiue pleaseth him , & healpeth to auance his Power , & as he wil haue it : Or , that they recken not of the number of mennes voices , rather then of the weight , and value of the same : Or , that Might , there dooth not oftentimes ouercomme Right .

M. Hardinge .

As you procede , you talke your pleasure of the godly and learned Fathers assembled in the late Councel of Trent . By the waie , as your manner is , your droppe lies . Of whiche , one is , that they hadde quite shut out , and barred youre side from al manner of assemblies : * * Vntruthe manifeste , as hereafter at shal appeare . whiche is a foule lie . That the firste sixe monethes , they occupied them selues with makinge many determinations of the holy Trinitie , that also is an other lie . For then the worlde hadde no nede of any newe determinations or decrees , concerninge the Trinitie : what it shal haue hereafter by occasion of youre chiefe Maister Iohn ‡ ‡ A sclaunderous Vntruthe . For M. Caluine was euer an enimie vnto the Arians . Caluines Doctrine , it is more feared , then yet perceiued .

Where ye would faine see of so manie , so manifest , so often confessed by themselfes , and so euident errours , what one errour they haue amended : they are not like to satisfie your longinge . And yet they haue taken order for the amendemente * * Vntruthe most impudente . For their owne confessed , and knowen Errours they neuer once touched . of so many , as they knowe . Neither is any of the same about any point of our faithe , but about thinges of lesse weight . Your exaggeration of the termes so many , so manifest , so often confessed by them , and so euident , reporteth in one sentence your so many , so manifest , so often confuted by vs , and so euident lies . When you folowe your hote humour , and aske , from what kinde of Idolatrie the Fathers of the Tridentine Councel haue reclaimed the people , you go to farre . What so euer blasphemie ye vtter in bookes and Sermons against the adoration of the blessed Sacrament of the Aulter , we knowe no kinde of Idolatrie vsed in the Churche . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , Confessed by M. Hardings owne Felowes . Reade the Answeare . Neither is any Idolatrie committed by vs in worshippinge of Sainctes , in praieinge to them , nor in the reuerence we exhibite to their Images , as ye beare the people in hande . * * O profounde Diuinitie . As I can not w●l take a heare from your lieing bearde , so wishe I , that I could plucke malice from youre blasphemous harte .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Whether the Learned menne of oure side were shut te out from the right , and libertie of youre Councel , Parte . 1. Diut . 19. Parte 6. ca. 8. Diui. 1. Cicero , In verrem actione . 1. In Concil Triden . Anno. 1562. or no , it maie soone appeare , partly by that is already saide : partly by that shal be saide hereafter . Verily , the Pope , for his Premunire , wil not suffer any Bishop , to geeue voice in Councel , on lesse he haue him firste solemnely sworne to the See of Rome : and therefore they be al called his Creatures . So Cicero saithe , Verres , when he hadde bribed , and spoiled the whole Ilelande of Sicilia , thought it not good , to suffer his name , or any parte of his dooinges to comme in hazarde , but onely before a Iudge , or Arbiter of his owne .

Therefore , the Frenche Kinges Embassadoure , as it is saide before , protested thus openly euen in your saide Councel , Minùs legitima , minusque libera dicuntur fuisse illa Concilia : qui aderant , ad voluntatem alterius semper loquebantur : These Councelles are coumpted neither so free , nor so laweful , as they ought to bee : they that were there , spake euermore to please an other : ( by whiche Other , he meante the the Pope ) . And for that cause , the Emperoures Maiestie , by his Embassadoure Hurtadus Mendoza solemnely protested againste the assemblie of the same Councel . His woordes he these : Ego Iacobus Hurtadus Mendoza , uomine Pientissimi , & Inuictissimi Domini mei , Caroli Caesaris Romani Imperatoris , ex illius speciali mandato , ac nomine totius Sacri Romani Imperij , aliorumque Regnorum , ac Dominiorum suorum protestor , Anno. 1547. Citatur ab Illyrico in Protestatione contra Concil. Triden . Nullam posse esse Authoritatem assetorum legatorum Sanctitatis Vestrae , & corum Episcoporum , qui sunt Bononiae , Sanctitati vestrae maiori ex parte obnoxiorum , atque ab illius nutu omninò pendentium , vt in Religionis , & morum Reformationis causa , &c. legem praescribant : I lamas Hurtado Mendoza , in the name of the most godly , and most mighty Prince my Lord Charles , the Romaine Emperour , by his special Commission , and in the name of y● whole Romaine Empiere , and al others his Realmes , and Dominions doo proteste , that the Authoritie of the pretensed Legates of youre holinesse , and of sutche other Bishoppes , as be nowe at Bononia , ( vnto whiche towne the Councel of Trident was then adiourned ) for the moste parte bounde vnto youre Holinesse , and wholy hanginge vpon youre becke , is of no force , namely to make Lawes in cause of Reformation of Religion , and maners .

And , Paralipomen● Vrspergen . Aeneas Syluius ad Capitulum Moguntinum . Iohan. Sleidanus Anno. 1523. li. 4. Hoc enim esse colligare manus Pontificis . that it maie appeare , in what obedience , & seruile subiection , al Bishoppes be vnto the Pope , Aeneas Syluius , otherwise called Pope Pius the Seconde , saith thus , Quo'd si Episcopus Papae contradicat etiam vera loquendo , nihilominus peccat contra Iufiorandum Papae praestitum : If a Bishop speake against the Pope , yea , although he speake the truthe , yet neuerthelesse he sinneth againste the Othe , that he hath made vnto the Pope . Therefore , where as at the late Conference at Norenberg , it was required by the Princes , and States of Germanie , that al Bishoppes comminge to the Councel , might bothe be discharged from theire Othe made to the Pope , and also sworne to speake , and to promote the Truthe , the Popes Legate there made answeare in greate disdeigne , that it might not so bee : For that so the Popes handes should be bounde . Hereby , M. Hardinge , a blinde man maie easily see the fourme , and Freedome of youre Councelles . If the Bishoppes be Free to saie the Truthe , then is the Pope leafte in Bondage .

Whether youre Fathers , in the Chapter at Tridente , sate there sixe whole Moonethes , debatinge , and reasoning about the Trinitie , or no , of certaine knowledge , I cannot telle . But certainely , what thinge els they did , either in al that time , Cassander in Consultatione de Communione subvtraque specie : In Praefatione : Anno 1562. or longe after , you can hardely shewe vs . Therefore , if they did not this , for as mutche , as nothinge els appeareth of theire dooinges , wee must imagine , thei sate mute in a Muminerie , and saide nothinge . Notwithstandinge , Cassander saithe , thei bestowed one whole Sommer in greate , and holy Disputations aboute meaner maters , then the Trinitie : I meane , onely about the Communion of the Cuppe . Martinus Kemnitius saithe , Thei helde Disputations there , and kepte greate sturre Seuen whole Moonethes togeather , about the Iustification of Faith & Workes : Marti . Remmitius in Examine Concil Triden . pag. 638. & yet in the end leaft it worse , then thei founde it . We saie , You your selues haue espied mani disorders in your church of Rome , as it is plain bi your own Confessions . To recken them al in particular , it were too long . I haue partely touched them heretofore . Albertus Pigghius confesseth , there be Abuses in your Masse : Alber. Pigghi . In controuer. De Missa Priuata . In Concil. Tridenti . An. 1562. The Frenche Kings Embassadour , at youre laie Tridentine Chapter , saithe thus , Vel Praefectorum Ecclesiae incuria , vel etiam ( ne quid grauius dicam ) praepostera Pietate , irrepsisse in Ecclesiam res nonnullas Antiquatione , Abrogatione , vel Moderatione dignas , fateamur necesse est : Wee must needes confesse , that either by the negligence of the Bishoppes , or by some disordered opinion of Holinesse ( for I wil saie no more : he meaneth falsehed , Picus Miran . Ad Leonem Pp. 10. In Concil. Lateran . and Mockerie , and Wiltal Auarice ) certaine thinges are brought into the Churche , woorthy either to be put awaie , and abolished , or at leaste , to be qualified .

Picus Mirandula besoughte Pope Leo. 10. to abate the vaine Multitude of youre Ceremonies : to refourme youre Praiers : and to cut of youre Fables :

One of youre owne Louanian Felowes saithe , Copus Dialo. 1. pag 115. Euen nowe a daies , many good menne mislike so many Appeales to Rome : Idolatrie in the Churche of Rome . Somme others finde faulte with your Pardonnes : Somme with youre Simonie : some with youre Stewes : somme with youre licenceous keepinge , and mainteininge of Concubines .

I wil not enlarge the mater further . These , and other like thinges are confessed by youre selues . Other greater maters I wil not touche . For in cases of Faith , for your credites sake , ye maie graunte no manner Erroure . For , otherwise it might be thought , yee haue neither the Faith , nor the Life of Christian menne .

Nowe therefore tel vs , M. Hardinge , what one Abuse of al the Abuses in your Masse : what one Disorder , or Deformitie , of so many Disorders , and Deformities in your Churche : What one vaine Ceremonie : What one Childishe Fable : What Appeale to Rome : What Simonie : What Pardonne : What Stewes : What Courteghianes : What Concubines haue yee refourmed ? If yee redresse not those grosse , and sensible Abuses , that yee see with youre eies : howe then wil yee redresse other more secrete maters , that perteine onely to Faithe , and be not seene ? If ye wil not refourme your open Stewes , when wil yee refourme the Churche of God ? But yee are bolde to assure vs , that there is no kinde of Idolatrie , nor euer was any in youre whole Churche of Rome . Notwithstanding , somme others of youre beste Learned Frendes haue thought otherwise , as it shal appeare .

Firste , Epiphani . li. 3. In Oratione , De Fide catholica . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Epiphanius saithe of certaine Persians , named Magusaei , Idola quidem detestantur : tamen Idolis cultum exhibent : Thei abhorre the sight of Idolles : yet thei fal downe , and woorship Idolles . Againe , he reporteth certaine woordes of S. Paule , as vttered of him by the Sprite of Prophesie , Erunt Mortuis Cultum Diuinum praestantes , quemadmodum etiam . in Israel impiè coluerunt : Thei shal geue godly honoure vnto deade menne , like as also thei did in Israel .

What opinion yee haue had of Sainctes departed , I neede not here to remember . Cardinal Bembus , in an Epistle vnto the Emperour Charles . 5. calleth the Blessed Virgine , Epiphani . contra Collyridian . Bembus in Epis. ad Carolum 5. Lipomanus . Pag in 289. Dominam Deam nostram : Our Lady and Goddesse . Youre greate Hercules , Lipomanus , crieth out in his marginal agonie , Ecce quàm potentissima est sancta Dei Genitrix : & quomodò nullus saluus fieri possit nisi per eam : Beholde , howe mighty is the holy Mother of God , and howe noman maie be saued , but by her .

It seemeth , this Erroure beganne to springe longe sithence , euen in the time of the Olde Fathers : and that hereof Faustus , the Heretique , tooke occasion thus to charge the Catholiques for the same . August . Contra Faustum . li. 20. cap 21. Idola vertistis in Martyres : Yee haue changed the Heathen Idolles into youre Martyrs . Further , yee saie , the Reuerence , that yee geeue vnto Sainctes Images , is no Idolatrie . Yet Polydorus Vergilius , speaking hereof , saithe thus : Quia Sacerdotes populum non docent , & vulgo ex vsu suo tacere putantur , Polydor. Virgil. De Inuentoribus rerum . li. 6. cap. 13. idcirco ' eo ' insaniae deuentum est , vt haec pars Pietatis parùm differat ab Impietare : For that the Priestes iustructe not the people , and are thought to holde theire peace for gaines sake , the mater is brought to sutche a dotage , that this parte of Deuotion differeth but litle from Extreme Wickednesse . And Ludouicus Viues saithe , he seeth no greate difference bitweene many Christian menne woorshipping their Images , Ludo. Viues , in li. De Ciuita . Dei Catharinus in Libello de Imaginibus . & an Heathen man adouring his Idolles . Catharinus , one of your greate Doctours of Tridente , saithe thus : An licet Adorare Imagines ipsas , & illis cultum praebere ? Sunt qui hoc omnino ' negent , & clament , esse Idololatriam . Videntur autem non futilibus Argumentis moueri : nec absque Maiorum , imo ' etiam Scripturarum Authoritate : Whether is it lawful to Woorship the very Images , or no ? Somme menne saie , nay : and calle it Idolatrie . And thei seeme to be moued with no light Argumentes , nor without the Authoritie , as wel of the Fathers , as of the Scriptures .

Iacobus Nanclantus saithe , Iacob . Nanclantus . in Epist. ad Roma . cap. 1. Non solùm fatendum est , Fideles in Ecclesia Adorare coram Imagine , sed & Adorare Imaginem , fine quo volueris scrupulo : quin & ●o illam venerari cultu , quo & prototypon eius . Propter quod , si illud habet Adorari Latria , & illa habet Adorari Latria : We must graunte , that the Faithful people in the churche , do not onely woorshippe before the Image , but also worshippe the Image it selfe : and that without any manner scruple of Conscience , whatsoeuer . And further , Thei worshippe the Image with the selfe same honoure , wherewith thei woorshippe the thinge it selfe , that is represented by the Image . As if the thing it selfe be woorshipped with godly honoure , then muste the Image it selfe likewise be woorshipped with godly honoure . Hereto agreeth one other of your late Writers , Iacobus Payua . Iacob . Payua . li. 9 Fortalitium Fidei . Rob. Holcote . In librum Sapien. Lectione . 158. And an other of your like Doctours saithe , This is the very vse , and practise of your Churche of rome . But , Robertus Holcote saith , This kinde of worshippinge , is plaine Idolatrie . Yee wil saie , Yee knowe the Image is no God . And this , ye thinke , is excuse sufficiente . But so likewise saide the Heathens of theire Idoles : & yet , as S. Augustine saith , thei were Idolaters notwithstanding .

Yee wil saie , Augu. De Verb. Domi. Secundum Matt. Sermo 6. Augustin . Ad Quodvult deum . Paul . Venet. li. 3. Cap. 27. It is the Image of an Apostle of Christe , or of God him selfe : and therefore it can be no Idolatrie . But S. Augustine saithe , Marcellina colebat Imaginem Iesu , & Pauli , & Homeri , & Pythagorae , Adorando , Incensumque ponendo : Marcellina Woorshipped the Image of Iesus , and of Paule , and of Homere , and of Pythagoras , by kneelinge vnto them , and burninge Incense before them . Yet neuerthelesse she was an Idolater . The Saracenes this date , make theire Sacrifices in Mounte Mecha , not to Diuels , or Heathen Goddes : But to Abraham , and Isaac , and S. Thomas : yet ace thei not therefore excused of Idolatrie . Gregor. Nyssen . In Orat. funebri de Placilla . Gregorius the Bishop of Nyssa , S. Basiles Brother , saithe thus : Qui Creaturam Adorat , etsi in Nomine Christi id faciat , tamen Simulachrorum Cultor est , Christi Nomen Simulachro imponens : He that woorshipper a Creature , notwithstandinge he doo it in the Name of Christe , yet is he a woorshipper of Images , as geeuing the name of Christe vnto an Image . By these fewe , M. Harding , it maie soone appeare , that your Churches are not voide of al Idolatrie .

The Apologie , Cap. 7. Diuision . 3.

And therefore we knowe , that diuers times many good men , and Catholique Bishoppes did tarrie at home , & would not come , when sutche Councelles were called , wherein menne so apparently laboured to serue factions , & to take partes , bicause thei knewe , thei should but lose their trauaile , and doo no good , seeinge wherevnto theire enimies mindes were so wholy bente . Athanasius denied to comme , when he was called by the Emperoure to his Councel at Caesaria , perceiuinge plainely he should but comme among his enimies , whiche deadly hated him . The same Athanasius , when he came afterwarde to the Councel at Syrmium , and foresawe what woulde be the ende , by reason of the outrage , and malice of his enimies , he packed vp his cariage , and went away immediately . Iohn Chrysostome , although the Emperoure Constantius , Histor. Tripari . lib. 10. cap. 13. Euseb. li 1. ca. 17. commaunded him by foure sundrie letters , to come to the Arians Councel , yet keapte he him selfe at home stil . When Maximus , the Bishop of Hierusalem , sate in the Councel of Palestine , the Olde Father Paphnutius toke him by the hand , and leadde him out at the doores , saieinge : It is not lawful for vs , to conferre of these maters with wicked menne . The Bishoppes of the Easte woulde not comme to the Syrmian Councel , after they knewe , Athanasius had gotten him selfe thence againe . Cyril called menne backe by letters from the Councel of them , whiche were named Patropassians . Paulinus , Bishop of Trier , and many others moe , refused to comme to the councel at Millaine , when they vnderstoode , what a sturre , and rule Auxentius keapte there : for they sawe , it was in vaine to goe thither , where not reason , but faction shoulde preuaile : and where folke contended , not for the Truthe , and right iudgemente of the mater , but for Partialitie , and Fauour .

And , al be it those Fathers had sutche maliceous and stiffe necked enimies , yet if thei had comme , thei should haue had free speache at least in the councelles .

M. Hardinge .

First , And why not as wel , as M. Hard. maie calle the whole Churche the Popes Vineyarde ? pag. 283. b. Or , al the Bishops through the worlde the Popes Sheepe ? Pag. 308. b. here I note the falsehed of the Lady enterpreter , who turneth the Latine speaking of Athanasius . Cùm vocatus esset ab Imperatore ad Concilium Caesariense : When he was called by the Emperoure to his Councel at Caesarca . Where by addinge the worde his , of her owne , she or a worse shrewe vnder her name , goeth about to perswade , as Heretiques doo , that the Councels be to be accompted the Councels of Temporal Princes , not of Bishoppes : and that they be the heads of them , not the Bishop of Rome . This mutche to her . Nowe Sir to you Defender . Al these examples serue you to no purpose . It is not denied you , but that in cases , menne maie refuse to comme to Councels . Your examples declare , that Catholique Bishops shunned to come vnto the vnlauful Councels of Heretiques . But ye holdinge strange opinions , condemned by the Churche , denie to comme to the lauful Councels of Catholike Bishoppes . When ye haue proued vs to be Heretiques , I meane the Fathers of the late Councel , then maie ye iustly alleage the example of Athanasius , Chrysostome , Maximus , Paphnutius , Cyril , Paulinu , and sutche other , for not comminge to the Councel .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Had you not had a shrewde sharpe witte , M. Hardinge , and a very good likinge of the same , yee coulde neuer haue made your selfe so greate sporte of so smal a mater . The Lady Interpreter pitieth your case , and wisheth you a litle more discretion : and woulde be mutche ashamed to answeare your folies .

If the Councel , we speake of , were not the Emperoures Councel , then mutche lesse was it the Popes Councel . For in those daies , as hereafter it shal be declared more at large , Councelles were summoned by Emperoures , & not by Popes . And what reason haue you to shew vs , that the Councel , being summoned by the Emperoure , might not be called the Emperoure Councel , as wel , as the Pope , being admitted , & allowed by y● Emperoure , might be called the Emperoures Prieste ? Odoacer , In Concil. Romano . 3. sub Symmacho . pp. in the third Councel of Rome , in the time of Pope Symmachus , saide thus : Miramur , praetermissis nobis , quicquam fuisse tentatum : Cùm etiam Sacerdote nostro superstite , nihil sine nobis debuisset affumi : Wee ma●ueile , that any thinge was attempted without our knowledge : for as mutche as , Our Prieste ( he meaneth the Pope ) beinge aliue , nothing maie be donne without vs . Liberat. cap. 11. Liberatus saithe , Flauianus Episcopus Eutychem ad Concilium Suum venire praecepit : Flauianus the Bishop ( not of Rome , but of Antioche ) Commaunded Eutyches to comme to his Councel . Hereafter , M. Harding , ye maie take time , to studie for somme better quarel . Surely this was very simple .

Ye excuse Athanasius , Chrysostomus , Maximus , Paphnutius , Hilarius , Cyrillus , Paulinus , & other Learned Bishoppes , & holy Fathers , for not appearing at General Councels : for that thei were summoned to appeare before Heretiques . As for the Fathers of your late Tridentine Chapter , what so euer thei were , ye must in any wise calle them Catholiques . Yet notwithstanding , yee maie remember , that by sutche good Catholiques , as you be , the same holy Fathers , Athanasius , Chrysostomus . Maximus , Hilarius contra Arianos , & Auxentium . Paphnutius . Hilarius , Cyrillus , Paulinus , & others were called Heretiques . Hilarius saithe : Congreger nunc Auxentius , quas volet in me Synodos , & Haereticum me , vt saepe iam fecit , publico titulo proscribat : Nowe let Auxentius , the Arian Heretique , calle what Councelles he liste against me : and by open Proclamations let him publishe me for an Heretique , Theod. li. 2. ca. 3. as he hath oftentimes donne already . The Arian Heretiques saide , that the Catholique Christians , whom thei called Homousians , whiche in their meaning was as mutche , as Heretiques , were the cause of al diuision .

S. Hierome saithe vnto Marcus , Hieronym . Ad Marcum Presbyterum Celedensem . Haereticus sum : quid ad te ? Quiesce : iam dictum est : I am an Heretique : What is that to thee ? Holde your peace : yee haue tolde your tale . By like right , Christe him selfe , by certaine your Anciente Fathers , was called a Samaritane , a Deceiuer of the people , and an Heretique . And , if it maie please you soberly , & aduisedly to consider the mater , ye shal finde throughout the whole Body of the Scriptures , that no people made euer so greate crakes of the Churche , as thei , that were the deadly Enimies of the Churche : nor none were so ready to condēue others of Heresie , as thei , that in deede were them selues the greatest Heretiques .

The Apologie , Cap. 8. Diuision . 1.

But nowe , sithence none of vs maie bee suffered so mutche as to sitte , or once to be seene in these mennes meetinges , mutche lesse suffered to speake freely our minde : and seeinge the Popes Legates , Patriarches , Archebishoppes , Bishoppes , and Abbates , al being conspired togeather , al linked togeather in one kinde of faulte , & al bounde by one othe , sitte alone by them selues , and haue power alone to geeue their consente : and at last , when thei haue al donne , as though thei had donne nothinge , bringe al their opinions to be iudged at the wil , and pleasure of the Pope , being but one man , to th ende he maie pronounce his owne sentence of him selfe , who ought rather to haue answeared to his complainte : sithence also the same Ancient , and christian Libertie , whiche of al right shoulde specially bee in christian councelles , is nowe vtterly taken away from the councel : for these causes , I saie , wise and good menne ought not to marueile at this daie , though we doo the like nowe , that , thei see , was donne in times past in like case , of so many Fathers , & Catholique Bishoppes : which is , though we chuse rather to sit at home , and leaue our whole cause to God , then to iournei thither , where as wee neither can haue place , nor be hable to doo any good : where as wee can obteine no audience : where as Princes Embassadours be but vsed as mockinge stockes : & where as also al wee be condemned already before trial : as though the mater were a forehande dispatched , and agreed vpon .

M. Hardinge .

If I wishe , ye woulde take my counsel in good parte , and listen vnto it , * * A sage piece of Counsel , and meete for a Doctour of Diuinitie . as it standeth you vpon , I would aduise you to cal in al the bookes of your Apologie , and that with no lesse diligence , then yee went about to suppresse the Bookes of my answeare to M. Iuelles chalenge , at their firste comminge abrode . That done , to caste bruites abrode , that the Apologie was made and counterfeited by some crafty Papist , to bringe you quite out of credite with al the worlde . So might ye perhaps in time recouer some parte of your lost estimation . For whiles your Bookes be in mennes handes , they shal be an euident witnes to al the worlde , of your shameles lieing .

The Booke of the Canons , and Decrees of the Councel , hathe benne printed almoste in al partes of Christendome . Looke who liste , in euery Booke he shal finde three seueral solemne Safeconductes , graunted by the Councel , and confirmed by the three Popes , vnder whome the same was celebrated . Whiche Safeconductes conteine firste in moste ample wise ful Libertie , Power , Auctoritie , and assurance for al and singuler persons of al Germanie , of what degree , state , condition , or qualitie so euer they bee , that would come to that oecumenical and general Councel , to conferre , propounde , and treate with al freedome , of al thinges to be treated there , and to the same Councel freely , and safely to come , there to tarry and abide , and to offer and put vp articles , so many as they thought good , as wel in writinge , as by woorde , and with the Fathers , and others thereto chosen , to conferre , and without any reproches , or vpbraidinges to dispute , also at theire pleasure safely againe from thence to departe .

An extension to other Nations .

The same holy Councel in the holy Ghoste lawefully assembled , the same Legates de latere of the See Apostolike , being president in it , to al and singuler others , whiche haue not communion with vs in those maters , that be of Faithe , of what so euer Kingdomes , Nations , Prouinces , Citties , and Places , in whiche openly , and without punishement , is preached , or taught , or beleued the contrarie of that , whiche the holy Romaine Churche holdeth , geueth Faithe publique or Safeconducte , vnder the same forme , and the same wordes , with which it is geuen to the Germaines .

This being moste true , as the better part of the worlde seeth , and the Bookes , and publique instrumentes extant doo witnesse , your excuse of your refusal to come to the Councel , as Bishoppes of other Christian Realmes did , is founde false . * * A ful discrete kinde of Mockerie . Thei offer menne libertie to comme , and speake : but reserue the whole Iudgemente to them selues . Ye had al free libertie and securitie , graunted vnto you for that behalfe , in so ample and large maner , as mans witte coulde denise .

The seconde cause why ye came not , is , for that the Popes Legates , Patriarches , Archebishoppes . Bishoppes , and Abbotes , al being conspired together , al lincked together in one kinde of faulte , and al bounde in one Othe , sitte alone by them selues , and haue power alone to geue theire consent . What is here that should let you to ioine with others for procuring vnitie , and peace in Christendome ? Complaine ye of the Fathers concorde and agreeinge togeather ? ‡ ‡ Thei agree togeather againste God , and his Christe . That is a signe , the spirite of God , authour of charitie and vnitie , gouerneth their hartes . In that respect , they seeme to comme togeather in the holy Ghoste . And in deede , had ye gone thither , your heresie● had benne confuted , your selues required to yelde , and to conforme you to the Catholique churche or els ye had benne anathematized , accursed , and condemned .

Your third cause is , for that the determinations , and decrees of the Councel , be referred to the Pope . To that we haue answeared before . The Pope confirmeth al , being head ouer the Councel . * * But who made youre Pope a Kinge ? And when wil he geeue his Real Consent against him selfe ? Doth not the Queene so pardy confirme your actes of Parlament , by geuing her Roial assent vnto them at the ende of the Parlament ? What thinge can be done perfitly by a body without the head ? And who might better confirme Councels , then he , whose Faithe in pronouncinge sentence , rightly and duely , Luke . ●2 . in maters concerning Faithe , we are assured by Christes praier , to be infallible ?

Your fourth cause is , for as mutche as the Ancient , and Christian libertie , which of right should specially be in Christian Councels , is now vtterly taken away . This cause is not different from your first .

Your fifth cause is a false lie , that Princes Ambassadours be vsed , but as mocking stockes . ‡ ‡ Thei are allowed a place : but touchinge Iudgemente , thei maie saie nothinge . Truthe it is , thei haue moste honourable seates in al Councels . In this Councel thei sate by the Legates . Euery Ambassadour hath his place there according to the degree of honoure , the kingdomes , common weales , states , and Princes be of , from whence , and from whom he commeth .

The sixt , and last cause ye alleage for your not comming to the Councel is , for that ye be condemned already before trial , as though the matter were aforehand dispatched and agreed vpon . In dede * * Vntruthe , without any coloure of honeste shame . your heresies for the more part be and haue ben condemned about a thousand yeres past . And therefore thei are not nowe to be called vnto a newe trial , as though the Churche vntil this daie , had benne deceiued , and so many Fathers ouerseene . This notwithstanding , maie ye wel saie , touching that point , your matter is afore hand dispatched , and agreed vpon . For thei knowe , what ye can saie , and see , that ye saie nothing , but onely stande wilfully and stubbornly in your false opinions , and fleshly pleasures .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wee neuer suppressed any of your Bookes , M. Hardinge , as you knowe : The Popes Saueconducte . but are very wel contented , to see them so common , that as nowe , children maie plaie with them in the Streetes . Your manifest Vntruthes : your Simple Conclusions : your often Contrarieties to your selfe : your Newe founde Authoures : your Childishe Fables : your Vncourteous Speaches : your Rackinge , Corrupting , & Misceportinge of the Doctours therein couteined , haue mutche bewraied the miserable feeblenesse of your cause . Your Felowes haue no cause , greately to glorie in sutche healpes : nomore then in other your like Pamflettes , vnmeete of any wise man to be answeared . This was your onely , and special policie , in the time of your late Kingdome . Yee suppressed , and called in , & burnt al our Writinges , what so euer , yea , the very Testament , & Gospel of Christe , truely translated into Englishe , naming them Heretical , and Vnlawful Bookes . And , if any man had conceled , and keapte vnto him selfe for his conforte , any sutche Booke written by any of our syde , by most terrible , & bloudy Proclamations , yee made it Felonie . So mutche yee despaired , and doubted your owne folies .

As for the Bookes of our Apologie , they haue ben spreadde so farre , & printed so often , in Latine , in Italian , in Frenche , in Duitche , in Englishe , that , as nowe , it were hard to suppresse them . Touchinge the shamelesse lieinge , wherewith yee charge vs . we are wel content to stande to the Iudgement of the wise . Certainely , it shameth vs mutche , to see so litle shame in youre Writinges .

Yee saie , The Pope gaue out his Saueconducte to al the Princes , and Free Citties , and to the whole people of Germanie , to come to the Councel , to propounde , to dispute at theire pleasure , and , when they shoulde thinke it good , freely , and safely to returne , with a large Extension to other Nations , as yee saie , to like pourpose .

But firste , M. Hardinge , what safetie can there be in his Saueconducte , that is not hable to saue him selfe ? Pope Eugenius the fourthe , Concil. Basilien . Session . 3. & 4. if he had comme to the Councel of Basile , as you knowe , had benne quite deposed from his Popedome , al his Saueconductes notwithstandinge . Pope Iohn. 22. gaue oute as sure a Saueconducte for the Councel of Constance , as Pope Pius could diuise any for your late Chapter of Tridente . Yet notwithstandinge al his Safetie , Concil. Constan . Session . 2. 3. 4. beinge him selfe present in the Councel , he was pulled out of Peters Chaire , and depriued of his Dignitie , and stripte out of his Pontificalibus , and turned home againe in his Minoribus , and allowed onely to be a Cardinal , and no lenger to be a Pope . Yee maie remember , Cicero saithe , Qui multorum Custodem se profiteatur , eum sapientes sui primùm capitis aiunt Custodem esse oportere : Cicero . Philip. 12 Wise menne saie , Who so wil take vpon him to saue others , oughte first to saue him selfe .

And what credite maie wee geeue to youre Saueconductes ? Illyricus in Protest . contra Concil. Tridentin . pag. 77. Iacobus Nachiantes . the Bishop of Chioca , for that he had simpred out one halfe woorde of truthe to the mislikinge of the Legates , was faine to renne to Rome , to crepe to the Popes feete , and to craue Pardonne . Yee shamefully betraied , & cruelly murthered Iohn Husse , & Hieronymus Pragensis in your Councel of Constance . Neither the Protection of the Emperoure , nor the Popes Saueconducte was hable to saue them . No , your selues haue already ruled the case in your said Councel . For thus yee saie , Fides non est seruanda Hereticis : Yee maie holde no Faithe vnto them , that yee calle Heretiques . Sutche is the Safetie , Concil. Constan . Session . 19. and Libertie of your Councelles .

Ye saie , Our Learned Men were allowed to Propounde , to Talke , to Dispute . What shoulde this auaile ? For yee reserued the Determination , and whole Iudgemente to youre selues : and youre selues are sworne to submitte yours whole Iudgemente to the Pope , The Agreement of the Tridentine Fathers . and without his Iudgemente to Iudge nothinge . And howe maie this seeme a Free Councel , were the guilty partie shal be the Iudge ?

Yee saie , There is an Extension graunted to other Nations . Al this is true in deede . But this same Truthe discrieth youre open Mockerie . For if yee hadde seene the Instrumente , in the ende thereof yee shoulde haue founde youre saide Extension restrained onely to them , Io. Fabritius in Recusatione Concil. Triden . Iohan Sleidanus li. 23. Anno 1552. that woulde Repente , and Recante the Truthe of God , whiche you calle Erroure .

Howe be it , not longe sithence , the Bishoppes of youre saide Chapter at Tridente were very lothe to allowe any tolerable Sauecondite at al , either to the Germaines , or to any others .

But yee saie , if wee hadde comme to youre Chapter , we hadde benne Confounded . No doubtes , with youre Firy Argumentes . For sutche proufes muste healpe you , when others faile .

As for the gaie stuffe , that youre Tridentine Fathers , after theire Nature Deliberation , as they calle it , and more then twentie yeeres studie , haue sente vs out lately into the worlde , it is too simple to mocke Children .

Wee finde no faulte with you , M. Hardinge , for that youre Bishoppes , and Abbates agree togeather : but for that they agree togeather , as did Herode , and Pilate , Matt. 22. & . 26. the Sadduceis , and Phariseis againste Christe .

Neither maie you wel vaunte youre selues of youre greate agreementes . Yee maie remember , that twoo of the Principal Pillers of youre Chapter , Petrus à Soto . Catharinus . Petrus à Soto , and Catharinus , dissented euen there openly , and shamefully , and that in greate pointes of Religion : and wrote , the one mightily againste the other : the one charginge the other with Erroure , and Heresie , and coulde neuer bee reconciled .

Notwithstandinge , againste other pointes of Goddes Truthe , bothe they , and the reste ioined stoutely togeather . S. Augustine saithe , August . In Psal. 36. Concione . 2. Tunc inter se concordant , quando in perniciem Iusti conspirant . Non quia se amant , sed quia eum , qui amandus erat , simul oderunt : Then they agree togeather , when they conspire to destroie the Iuste : not for that they them selues loue one an other : but for that they bothe hate him , whome they ought to loue . Of sutche kinde of Consente S. Hierome , although to a farre contrarie pourpose , imagineth Iouinian thus to saie : Hieronym . In Apolo●etico ad Domnionem . Quo'd me damnant Episcopi , non est ratio , sed conspiratio . Nolo mihi ille , vel ille respondeat , quorum me Authoritas opprimere potest , docere non potest : That the Bishoppes condemne me , there is no Reason in theire dooinges , but a Conspiracie . I would not , that this man , or that man shoulde answeare mee , whiche maie oppresse mee by theire Authoritie , and cannot teache mee .

Whether it bee conueniente , that the Pope , beinge notoriously accused of manifeste corruption in Goddes Religion , shoulde neuerthelesse be the whole , and onely Iudge of the same , and pronounce sentence of him selfe , let it be indifferently considered by the wise .

The Lawe saithe , ff. De Iurisdict . omnium Iudicum . Nemo sibi debet Ius Dicere : No man maie bee his owne Iudge . Sutche Authoritie , yee saie , Kinges haue in Parlamentes . Hereof I am not hable to dispute . The Princes right many times passeth by Composition : and therefore is not euermore one in al places . Howe be it , the Pope is a Bishop , and not a Kinge : and other Bishoppes be not his Subiectes , but his Brethren .

Youre fourthe Obiection is but a Cauil . Yee saie , yee mocke not Princes Embassadours , but place them nexte vnto youre Legates : to sitte stil , I trowe , and to telle the Clocke . For voice in Iudgement ye allowe them none . Thus ye proine their Authoritie , and allowe them Honoure . Notwithstandinge , whether the Emperours , and Princes Embassadours maie sitte so neare to the Popes Legates , or no , I can not tel . The placinge of Embassadours . Verily the Emperoure him selfe maie not be so bolde , to presse so neare vnto the Pope . For thus it is ordered in youre Booke of Ceremonies : Aduertendum est , quod locus , vbi sedet Imperator , non sit altior loco , vbi tenet pedes Pontifex : Ceremoniarium Roman . li. 1. Sect. 14. cap. 2. This is to be noted , that the place , where the Emperoure sitteth ( in General Councel ) be no higher , then the place , where the Pope setteth his feete . That is to saie , the Emperoure must sitte at the Popes footestoole , and no higher .

Al the partes of oure Religion , whiche you calle Heresies , yee saie , are already condemned , iuste a thousande yeeres paste . Here , M. Hardinge , it woulde haue woonne you somme good credite , if yee could haue tolde vs , in what General Councel , vnder what Emperoure , by what Doctours , by what Catholique Learned Fathers , these greate Errours were thus condemned . As nowe , yee roaue onely at large , and feede youre simple Reader with youre emptie Calendares , of thousandes of yeeres , and speake at randonne . If it hadde benne true , yee woulde better haue shewed it : but beinge moste vntrue , as you knowe it to bee , for very shame , yee should neuer haue saide it .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision 1. & 2.

Neuerthelesse wee can beare patiently , and quietly our owne priuate wronges . But wherefore doo thei shutte out Christian Kinges , and good Princes from their Conuocation ? Why doo they so vncourteously , or with suche spite leaue them out , and as though they were not , either Christian menne , or els coulde not iudge , wil not haue them made acquainted with the causes of Christian Religion , nor vnderstande the state of their owne Churches ?

Or , if the saide Kinges , and Princes happen to entermeddle in sutche maters , and take vpon them to doo , that they maie doo , that they be commaunded to doo , and ought of dutie to doo , and the same thinges , that , we know , bothe Dauid , and Salomon , and other good Princes haue donne , that is , if they , whiles the Pope , and his Prelates siugge , & sleepe , or els mischeuously withstande them , doo bridle the Priestes sensualitie , and driue them to doo their duetie , and keepe them stil to it : If they doo ouerthrowe Idolles , if they take away Superstition , and sette vp againe the true woorshipping of God , why doo they by and by make an outcrie vpon them , that sutche Princes trouble al , and presse by violence into an other bodies office , and doo therein wickedly , and malepeartly ? What Scripture hathe at any time forbidden a Christian Prince to be made priuie to sutche causes ? Who , but themselues alone , made euer any sutche Lawe ?

M. Hardinge .

‡ ‡ Vntruthe , Vaine , and vnaduised , Read the Answeare . Ye confounde the offices of the Spiritual Gouernours , and Temporal Magistrates . What Kinges and Princes maie doo , what they be commaunded to doo , and ought of dutie to doo : in Gods name let them doo , and wel maie they so doo , Who is he , that gainesaithe ? If by the pretensed example of Dauid and Salomon , ye * * Vntruthe . It is not our Doctririe But why embolden you the Pope , to entermeddle with Princes Offices ? animate them to intermeddle with Bishoply offices , then beware they ( saie wee ) that Gods vengeance light not vpon them for sutche wicked presumption , whiche lighted vpon king Ozias , ● . Par. 26. for the like offence .

Ye teache Princes to vse violence against Priestes , as though theire faultes coulde not be redressed by the ‡ ‡ Youre Prelates be as blameworthy , and as negligente , as the Priestes . Prelates of the Clergie , of whom ye speake by spiteful surmise , as though God had vtterly withdrawen his holy spirite from them . But forasmuche as Christe assisteth his Churche alwaies , and shal neuer faile in thinges necessary , it is not to be doubted , but the Churche shal euer be prouided of somme good Gouernours , so as , though somme slugge and slepe , yet somme other shal wake , and diligently attende their charge . Priestes haue their Ecclesiastical courtes , where their defaultes , and offences maie duely , and Canonically be punished : and the offenders , by Priestly discipline , be redressed . Neither is it conuenient for a Kinge , to come into Priestes consistories , * * Vntruthe , reproued by the Ancient practise of the Churche : as it shal appeare nor to cal Priestes before him , to his owne seate of iudgement .

So many as be necessary to minister , and performe those thinges , that apperteine to the building vp of Christes Body the Churche , vntil it comme to his perfection , S. Paule reckeneth by name , in his Epistle to the Ephesians , Ephe. 4. saieing that Christe hath to that ende , placed in his Churche , ‡ ‡ Marke , that Popes , and Cardinalles in this ranke are not named . somme Apostles , somme Prophetes , somme Euangelistes , somme Shepeherdes , and teachers , Kinges , and Princes bee not there named , as they , who haue their propre rancke . That the people be to be stirred by vs , to more feruent deuotion to worship God , and somme perhaps , to be warned of somme cases of superstition , we graunte . But that any other manner or kinde of woorshippinge of God , is either by vs , or by temporal Princes , to be sette vp in Christes Churche , that wee denie .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Wee Confounde not these Offices , M. Hardinge , as yee beste knowe : but rather teache eche man , carefully to attende his owne Office . You , and youre Fathers haue brought Confusion of Offices into the Churche of God , in that yes haue made youre Pope Heire Apparente vnto the Empiere : and haue armed him with al manner Authoritie , Spiritual , and Temporal : and haue geeuen him the right of Bothe Swerdes .

For thus youre owne Pope Nicolas telleth you stoutely in his owne behalfe , Christus Petro , Dist. 22. Omnes . Aeternae vitae Clauigero , Terreni simul , & Coelestis Imperij iura commisit : Christe hath committed vnto Peter , the Keiebearer of Euerlastinge Life , the right , as wel of the Earthely , as of the Heauenly Empiere . Thus by youre Doctrine , Priestehoode , Kingdome , Popedome , Empiere , are al conueighed wholy into one mannes handes : and so , by youre handlinge , one man is Prieste , Kinge , Pope , and Emperoure , al at once . This perhaps vnto the wise , maie seeme to be somme Confusion of Offices .

Touchinge that ye write of the rasshe attempte of Kinge Ozias , yee seeme not to vnderstande , neither out woordes , nor your owne . For wee teache not Princes , to Offer vp Incense in Sacrifice , 2. Paralip. 26. as Ozias did : or by intrusion to thruste them selues into Bishoppes roumes : or to Preache , or to Minister Sacramentes , or to Binde , or to Loose : But onely to discharge theire owne Offices , and to doo that dutie , that Dauid , Salomon , Ezechias , Iosias , and other Noble , and godly Kinges did , and euermore was lawful for the Prince to doo . As for Right of Place , and Voice in Councel , it perteineth no lesse to the Prince , then to the Pope : as hereafter it shal better appeare .

Yee saie , Christe shal alwaies assiste his Churche : and shal euermore prouide her of good Gouernours . Thus , be youre negligence , and carelesse slouthfulnesse neuer so greate , bee youre liues neuer so loose : bee you Doumbe Dogges , not hable to barke , bee you Lanternes without Light , bee you Salte without sauoure , yet yee euermore dreame sweetely of Christes Promise , and assure youre selues vndoubtedly of his assistance : Euen as he that sommetime saide , Pan curer oues , ouiumque magistros . Woulde God youre Bishoppes woulde doo their dutie , and doo it faithfully : The worlde shoulde haue lesse cause to complaine . Notwithstandinge , Christe is euermore mindeful of his promise . For when he seeth his Churche defaced , and laide waste , he raiseth vp faitheful Magistrates , and godly Princes , not to doo the Priestes , or Bishoppes duties : but to force the Priestes , and Bishoppes , to doo theire duties .

But yee saie , Christe hath placed in his Churche , somme Apostles , somme Prophetes , A Bishop conuented before the Magistrate . somme Euangelistes , somme Pastoures , somme Teachers . Kinges , ye saie , and Princes bée not there named . Hereof yée conclude , Ergo , The Prince maie not cause the Abuses of his Church to be refourmed : nor ouersee the Priestes , Ephes. 4. and Bishoppes , if thei be negligente : nor force them to doo their dueties .

I marueile , M. Hardinge , where yée learned so mutche Logique . Howe frame yee this Argumente ? In what Moode ? In what Figure ? With what cement can yée make these séely loose partes to cleaue togeather ? It pitieth me to sée your case . For by like fourme of Argumente , and with mutche more likelihoode of Reason , wée maie turne the same againste your selfe , and maie saie thus : Christe hath placed in his Churche , somme Apostles , somme Prophetes , somme Euangelistes , somme Pastoures , somme Teachers : The Pope , and his Cardinalles are not here named : Apostles they are not , For the Apostles were but twelue : Prophetes they are not , for they Prophesie nothinge : Euangelistes they be not , for they Preache not : Pastours , or Feeders they are not , for they Feede not : Doctours , or Teachers they are not , for they teache not . Ergo , by this Authoritie of S. Paule , and by your owne Argumente , The Pope , and his Cardinalles be vtterly excluded , and maie not meddle with the charge of the Churche of God .

In sutche good Substantial sorte Pope Paulus . 3. not longe sithence , reasoned againste the Emperoure Charles the Fifthe , Epistola Pauli . 3. ad Carolum . 5. En ego supra Pastores meos : Beholde , saithe God Almighty , I wil pounishe my Priestes , and Bishoppes , for their negligence , and wickednesse : Ergo , saithe Pope Paulus , The Prince , or Emperoure maie not pounishe them .

In this your manner of Reasoning , M. Hardinge , there are welneare as many Errours , as there be woordes . The firste is , Ignoratio Elenchi : which is the grossest Fallax of al the reste : Secondly , yee conclude without either Moode , or Figure : as a very childe maie easily see . Thirdely , yée Reason á Meris Particularibus , or , A non Distributo ad Distributum . Fourthely , these woordes , Rule , or Charge of the Churche , are woordes of double , and doubteful meaninge . And therefore your Syllogismus , sutche as it is , must néedes stande of Foure Termes : whiche erroure in Reasoninge is too simple for a childe .

Touchinge these woordes , Rule , and Charge , whiche I saide , are double , and doubteful , notwithstandinge wee saie , bothe the Prince , and the Bishop haue Charge of the Churche , yet the Prince , and the Bishop haue not bothe one kinde of Charge . The Bishoppes Charge is , to Preache , to Minister Sacramentes , to Order Priestes , to Excommunicate , to Absolue &c. The Princes charge is , not to doo any of these thinges him selfe , in his owne Personne , but onely to see , that they be donne , and orderly , & truely donne by the Bishoppes .

I graunte , there be many Special Priuileges graunted vpon greate , and iuste considerations , of the méere fauoure of the Prince , that a Prieste , being founde neligente , or otherwise offendinge in his Ministerie , should be conuented , & pounished , not by the Temporal , or Ciuile Magistrate , but by the discretion of the Bishop .

But , that a Prince , or Magistrate maie not lawfully calle a Prieste before him , to his owne seate of Iudgemente , or that many Catholique , and Godly Princes haue not so donne , and donne it lawfully , it is moste vntrue . The Emperoure Iustinian him selfe , who of al others moste enlarged the Churches Priuileges , Cod. Li. 1. de Epis. & Clericis . Nullus . saithe thus : Nullus Episcopus inuitus ad Ciuilem , vel Militarem Iudicem , in qualibet causa produeatur , vel exhibeatur : nisi Princeps iubeat : Let no Bishop be brought , or presented , againste his wil , before the Captaine , or Ciuile Iudge , what so euer the cause be : Onlesse the Prince shal so commaunde it . The Emperoure Martianus commaundeth , if the cause be criminal , that the Bishop be conuented before the Lieutenant : Vt coram Praeside conueniatur . Pope Innocentius . 3. him selfe confesseth , that the Pope maie make a Laie man his Delegate , to heare , Cod. De Epis. audi . Si qui ex consensu . and determine in Priestes Causes . The like hereof yée maie finde in your owne Glose : Papa Laico delegat causam Spiritualem : The Pope committeth the hearinge of a Spiritual mater vnto a Laie man . Yea , further yée shal finde euen in the Popes owne Decrees , Cod. De Epis. & Clericis . Cum Clericis . that the Pope hath committed a Spiritual mater in a cause of Simonie , to be hearde , and ended by a Wooman : & that Brunichildis , beinge a Wooman , by vertue of the Popes Commission , summoned a Bishop , to appeare , and solemnely to make his Purgation before her . De Maiorit . & Obedient . Ca. 2. Innocent . Notwithstandinge , in your Glose vpon the same it is noted thus : Fuit tamen hîc nimium Papaliter Dispensatum : The Pope was too Popelike in this Dispensation .

The Emperoure Constantinus wrote thus vnto the Bishoppes , Il. q. 1. Clericum nullus . that had benne at the Councel of Tyrus : Cuncti quotquot Synodum Tyri compleuistis , sine mora ad Pietatis nostrae castra properate : ac re ipsa , quàm sincerè ac rectè iudicaueritis , ostendatis : 2. qu. 5. Mennam . Socrates , Lib. 1. Cap. 34. Idque Coram me , quem sincerum esse Dei Ministrum , ne vos quidem negabitis : Al yee , that haue benne at the Councel of Tyrus , comme without delaie vnto our Campe , and shewe me plainely , and without Coloure , how vprightly ye haue dealte in Judgemente : and that euen before me selfe , whome you cannot denie to be the true Seruante of God .

Iustinian the Emperoure , in the Lawe , that he maketh , touching the Publike Praiers of the Churche , saithe thus : Wee commaunde al Bishoppes and Priestes , to Minister the Holy Oblation , Authen . Constitutione . 123. and the Praier at the Holy Baptisme , not vnder silence , but with sutche voice , as maie be hearde of the Faitheful People : to the intente , that the hartes of the hearers maie be sturred to more deuotion , &c. Afterwarde he addeth further , And let the Holy Priestes vnderstande , that , if they neglecte any of these thinges , they shal make answeare therefore at the dreadeful Judgement of the Great God , and our Saueoure Iesus Christe . And yet neuerthelesse we ourselues vnderstanding the same , wil not passe it ouer , nor leaue it vnpounished . Hereby wée sée , that Godly Princes maie summone Bishoppes , to appeare before them , euen in Causes Ecclesiastical , to receiue sutche pounishment , as they haue deserued . Likewise the Emperoure Constantinus , in his Letters vnto the People of Nicomedia , speakinge of the wilful Errours , & Heresies of Priestes , and Bishoppes , saithe thus : Illorum temeraria praesumptio , Theodoretus Li. 1 Ca. 19. Augustin contra Epist Parmeniani . Li. 1. Ca. 7. mea , hoc est , Ministri Christi , manu coercebitur : Their rashe attemptes shal be repressed by my hande , that is to saie , by the hande of Christes Seruante . So likewise saithe S. Augustine vnto the Donatistes : An fortè de Religione fas non est vt dicat Imperator , vel quos miserit Imperator ? Cur ergo ad Imperatorem Legati vestri venerunt ? It is not lawful , that the Emperours , or the Emperours deputee should pronounce in a case of Religion ? Wherefore then wente your owne Embassadoures to the Emperoure ?

But what speake wee of other Priestes , and Inferiour Bishoppes ? The Popes them selues , notwithstandinge al their Vniuersal Power , haue submitted them selues , & made their Purgations before Kinges , & Emperoure . Pope Liberius made his humble appearance before the Emperoure Constantius : Theodor. Lib. 2. Cap. 16. Pope Sixtus was accused , and made his Purgation before the Emperoure Valentinian : Pope Leo 3. 2. Quaest. 4. Man . dastis . beinge accused by Paschalis , and Campulus , pleaded his cause before Carolus Magnus at Rome , not yet chosen Emperoure . Pope Iohn. 22. was accused of Heresie , 2. Quae. 4. Auditum . and forced to recante the same vnto Philip the Frenche Kinge .

Pope Leo 4. Gerson in Sermone Paschali . 2. quae . 7. Nos si . in this wise humbly submitteth him selfe vnto the Iudgemente of Lewes the Emperoure : Nos si incompetenter aliquid egimus , & in Subditis iustae Legis tramitem non conseruauimus , vestro admissorum nostrorum cuncta volumus emendare iudicio : Yf wee haue donne any thinge oute of order , and if wee haue not folowed the right course of the Lawe ouer our Subiectes , we wil amende al our faultes by your Maiesties Iudgemente .

Your owne Glose saithe , Papa potest dare potestatem Imperatori , vt deponat ipsum : & sese in omnibus illi subijcere : The Pope maie geeue the Emperoure power to depose him selfe : Dist. 63. In Synodo . In Gloss . Francis . Zarabella , De schemate , & Concil. and maie in al thinges submit him selfe vnto him . To be shorte , Franciscus Zarabella saithe , Papa accusari potest coram Imperatore de quolibet crimine notorio : Et Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem Fidei : The Pope maie be accused before the Emperoure of any notorious crime : and the Emperoure maie require the Pope to yeelde an accoumpte of his Faithe .

Now therefore , M. Hardinge , I reporte me to your owne indifferent iudgemente , how true it is , that yee saie , It is not conuenient , for a Kinge to calle Priestes before him to his owne Seate of Iudgemente . Verily , this Note yee might haue founde Glosed in your owne Decretalles : Extra . De Maiorita . & Obedie . Ca. 2. In Margin . Quaeritur , quis exemit Clericum de Iurisdictione Imperatoris , cum priùs esset illi subiectus ? Dicit Laurentius , quòd Papa de consensu Principis : A question is moued , Who hath exempted a Prieste from the Jurisdiction of the Emperoure , whereas before he was subiecte to the Emperours Courte ? Laurence saithe , The Pope hath exempted him , by the Consente of the Prince . Yee see therefore , M. Hardinge , your Priestes , Abbates , and Bishoppes haue theire Priuileges , and Exemptions , not by any right of Goddes Woorde , but onely by the Popes Policie , and by the Special fauoure of the Prince .

The Apologie , Cap. 9. Diuision . 3.

Thei wil saie to this , I gheasse , Ciuile Princes haue learned to gouerne a Common Wealthe , and to order maters of Warre : but they vnderstande not the secrete Mysteries of Religion . If that be so , what is the Pope , I praie you , at this daie , other then a Monarch , or a Prince ? Or , what be the Cardinalles , whoe must be none other nowe , but Princes , & Kinges Sonnes ? What els be the Patriarches , & , for the moste parte , the Archebishoppes , the Bishoppes , the Abbates ? What be they els at this present in the Popes Kingedome , but worldely Princes , but Dukes , and Erles , gorgeously accompanied with bandes of menne , whither so euer they goe : Oftentimes also gayly araied with Chaines , and Collars of golde ? Thei haue at times too , certaine Ornamentes by them selues , as Crosses , Pillers , Hattes , Miters , & Palles : whiche Pompe the Auncient Bishoppes , Chrysostome , Augustine , & Ambrose neuer had . Settinge these things aside , what teache thei ? What saie thei ? What doo thei ? How liue they ? I saie not , as maie become a Bishop , but as maie become a Christian man ? Is it so greate a matter , to haue a vaine title , and by changinge a garment onely to haue the name of a Bishop ?

M. Hardinge .

The duetie of ciuil Princes consisteth in ciuil matters : the duetie of Bishoppes , in spiritual thinges . That serueth to the preseruation of mens persons : this to the Saluation of their Soules . Euery high Priest ( saieth S. Paule ) that is taken from amonge men , Heb. 5. is ordeined for men in thinges apperteining to God . * * Vntruthe manifeste . For wee moue no Prince to take vpon him a Bishoppes Office . Re moue temporal Princes , to take vpon them the office of the Pope , and Bishops , as though it were a thinge so indifferent , and so common , that when Bishoppes be negligent , temporal men maie do their steede . But the reason , which to this ende ye make , is so slender , as I wene , fewe Princes that feare God , wil be greatly moued to ad●enter that thinge so muche subiecte and 〈…〉 your reason is this , Bishoppes entangled in worldly affaires . consider it who will : They of the Cleregie 〈…〉 Ergo , Temporall 〈◊〉 maie beare the office of Bishoppes . 〈…〉 and your Antecedent is false . For although Bishoppes 〈…〉 changinge a garment onely , as you saie ▪ yet that defect in them shoulde . 〈…〉 late ▪ as to Kinges , and Queenes , to doo the Office of 〈…〉 false for the Bishoppes of the Catholike Churche , 〈…〉 ordinated , and consecrated .

Though the Pope haue a Princely dominion , 〈◊〉 some other Bishoppes : of christendome haue Dukedomes and Erledomes , though they ride well 〈…〉 some of them otherwise then becommeth that vocation , doo weare 〈…〉 them : though they haue other ornamentes to their 〈…〉 . whiche grieueth you muche in comparison of the * * Vntruthe . For this is our Reason : A Temporal , Prince , saie you , maie not , meddle in Ecclesiastical causes : But the Pope , saie wee , is nothinge els but a Temporal Prince : Ergo , by your Iudgemente . beggery of your maried estate : yet all this imbarreth them 〈◊〉 but that they be Bishoppes .

Though they teache not , The Pope maie not meddle in Ecclesiastical Causes . though they saie not , though they doo not , though they liue not , as becommeth . Bishoppes , neither as becometh euen a Christen man , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . Reade the Answeare . as you raile , all this notwithstanding , yet be they Bishoppes , though euill Bishoppes . Neither for al this may it be latefull for 〈◊〉 to take their office vpon them . * * O glorious Thraso . Then was the Apostles state mutch more beggerly . Iudas was an Apostle till the rope choked him . Neither for his wickednesse might Streuen , Mathias , or any other of the Disciples of his owne presumpt to haue smepte into his r●●me . Now is this is true , so is your railinge talke false , whiche malice hath stirred you to vtter .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Oui● againe wee tel le you , M. Hardinge , wee confounde not these Offices : notwithstandinge you so often , and so lewd●ly reporte vs , to your owne discredite . This ●●linge as not ours , but S. B●●nardes . Our Princes neuer tooke vpon them , the Office of Bishoppes : But your Bishoppes haue taken vpon them the Office of Princes . Of your Bishoppes it is written in your owne Councelles : * * The Pope by M Hardinge compared with Iudas . Ecce , iam pe●e nulla est acti● 〈◊〉 , quam non Sacerdotes administrent : Beholde , there is now in a 〈◊〉 no 〈◊〉 affaire , but Priestes , and Bishoppes ●aue it in hande . Sutche Bishoppes be they , of whom S. Chrysostome writeth thus , 〈◊〉 . Citatur ab Illyrico inter 〈◊〉 Verit. Pag. 121. Chrysostom . In Matth. Hom. 35. Hieronym . Contra Qui non credunt Iudicium Dei , nec timen● , abutentes Primatu suo Ecclesiastico saeculariter , conuertunt eum in saecularem : They that neither beleeue , nor feare the Judgemente of God , 〈◊〉 theire Ecclesiastical Dignitie in Seculare sorte , turne the same into Seculare Dignitie : Sutche Bishoppes they be , of whome S. Hierome saithe thus , Ipsi sibi & Laici sunt , & Episcopi : They them selues be to them selues bothe Laiemenne , and Bishoppes too . And againe , Adorant Dominum , & Melchom , qui Saecedo pariter , & Domino putant se posse seruire , & duobus Dominis satisfacere , Deo , & Mammonae : qui Militantes Christo , obligant sese negotijs Saecularibus , & candem Imaginem offerunt & Deo , & Caesari : They woorship the Lorde , and Melchom bothe togeather , thinkinge , that they maie serue bothe the Woorlde , Hieronym . in Sophontam ca● . Concil. Trident. Sub Paulo 3. Admonitio Legator . and the Lorde , and satisfie twoo Maisters at once , God , and Mammon : who fightinge vnder Christe , binde them selues to worldly affaires , and offer vp one Image bothe to God , and to Caesar .

If yée wil beleeue none of these , yet your Popes owne Legates , in your late Chapter at Tridente , speakinge of your Priestelike Apparel , saie thus : Nihil à Laic●s , praeterquam in Vestis genere , ac ne in hoc quidem differunt : Our Priestes differ nothinge from Laiemenne , sauinge onely in Apparel : naie , in deede they differ not so mutche from them , as in Apparel .

Yee saie , Auentinus . Le. 3. De Ruperto , Christum omnium Deorum esse pauperrimum . your Bishoppes are gaie , and gallante , attended , and garded with Princelike routes , bothe behinde , and before : And thereof yée make no smal accoumpte , specially in respecte of our estate , whiche you calle beggerly . In sutche disdeigne the Heathens sommetime saide , That Christe was the Beggerliest , and poorest of al the Goddes that were in Heauen . Ecclesiastical brauerie in Apparel . How be it , our Bishoprikes , sauinge that certaine of your Fathers haue shamefully spoiled them , are nowe , euen as they were before . Certainely the Poorest Bishoprike in Englande , as it is reported , is better in reuenewes , theli somme thrée of your Popes Italian Bishoprikes in the Kingedome of Naples . How be it , the Gospel of Christe standeth not by Richesse , but by Truthe . In comparison of the one , wée make smal reckeninge of the other .

Neuerthelesse , the Wise , and Godly haue euermore founde faulte with the Ecclesiastical Brauerie of your Romaine Cleregie . Bernard . in Cantica . Sermo . 33. Holcote in Sapien. Lectio . 23. Bernard in Cantica . Sermo. 77. S. Bernarde saithe , Inde est , quem quotidiè ides , Meretriceus Nitor : Histrionicus habitus : Regius Apparatus . Inde Aurum in Frenis , in Sellis , in Calcaribus : Therehence commeth theire Whoorelike Finenesse : theire Plaiers Weede : their Princely Apparel . Therehence commeth their Goulde in theire Bridles , in their Saddels , and in theire Spurres . Againe he saithe , Incedunt nitidi , & ornati , circumamicti varietatibus , tanquam Sponsa procedens de thalamo suo . Nonnè si quempiam talium eminùs procedentem aspexeris , Sponsam potids putabis , quàm Sponsae Custodem ? They goe trimmely , and finely in their coloures , as if a Spouse shoulde comme from her Chamber . If thou shouldest suddainely see one of them lettinge a farre of , wouldest thou not rather thinke , it were a Spouse , then the keeper of the Spouse ?

Pope Bonifacius 8. in a greate Iubilee , Paralipomena . Vrspergen . and in a Solemne Procession , wente apparelled in the Emperours Roabes : and had the Crowne Emperial on his Heade , and the Swerde of Maiestie borne before him , as an Emperoure .

This Spiritual Ioilitie , M. Hardinge , liketh you wel . Notwithstandinge S. Bernarde saithe , Bernard . De Consideratione ad Eugenium , Lib. 1. Daemonum magis , quàm Ouium , sunt haec pascua . Scilicet , sic factitabat Petrus : sic Paulus ludebat : These be Pastoures for Diuels , not for Sheepe . No doubte , Euen thus did Peter : euen sutche pastime plaide S. Paule .

Yee telle vs further , Though they teache not , though they saie not , though they doo not , though they liue not , as becommeth Bishoppes , nor as becommeth a Christian man , yet bee they Bishoppes not withstandinge . Hereat wee wil not greately striue . For so the Woulfe , if he once geate a Sheepehooke , and a Cloke , maie be a Shephearde : and a Blindeman , if he geate once into the Watche Tower , maie bee a Spie . But miserable are the Poore Sheepe , that so are fedde : miserable is that Poore Castle , that so is watched .

S. Augustine saithe , 8. quae . 1. Qui Episcopatum . Augustin . Episcopatus est nomen Operis , non Honoris : vt intelligat , se non esse Episcopum , qui praeesse dilexerit , non prodesse : A Bishoppes Office is a name of Laboure , and not of Honoure : that , who so loueth to rule , and not to profite , maie vnderstande him selfe to be no Bishop . Againe he saithe of sutche a one , 2. quae. 7. qui nec . Augustin . Canis impudicus dicendus est magis , quàm Episcopus : He ought rather to be called a shamelesse Dogge , then a Bishop .

As for that , yee saie , Your Bishoppes be duely Ordinated , and consecrated , S. Augustine replieth , August . contra Donatist . Li. 6. Ipsum Characterem multi , & Lupi , & Lupis imprimunt : Touchinge the outwarde Consecration of a Bishop , many geeue it to Woulues , and be Woulues them selues .

S. Bernarde , Bernard . De Consideratione ad Eugeni . Li. 3. speakinge of your Priestes , and Bishoppes , saithe , Habitu Milites : quaestu Clericos : actu neutros exhibent . Nam neque vt Milites , pugnant : neque vt Clerici , Euangelizant . Cuius ergo Ordinis sunt ? Cùm vtriusque esse cupiunt , vtrunque deserunt : vtrunque confundunt . Vnusquisque , inquit , in suo Ordine resurget . In quo isti ? An qui sine Ordine peccauerunt , sine Ordine peribunt ? Vereor , non alibi Ordinandos , quàm vbi nullus Ordo , sed sempiternus horror inhabitat : In theire apparel , they are Souldiers : in their gaines , they are Priestes , and Bishoppe : but in effecte , and in deede , they are neither of bothe . For neither doo they fighte in the fielde , as doo Souldiers : nor doo they preache , as Priestes , and Bishoppes . Of whether Order therefore be they ? Whereas they would be of bothe Orders , they foresake bothe , and confounde bothe . S. Paule saithe , Euery man shal rise againe in his owne Order . 1. Corinth. 15. But in what Order shal these rise ? Whether , for as mutche , as they haue finned without Order , shal they perishe without Order ? I feare me , they shal be Ordered none otherwhere , but where as is no Order , but disorder , and horroure Euerlastinge .

Thus plainely speake your owne Doctoures , touchinge your Cleregie : whiche plainenesse it pleaseth you , M. Hardinge , to calle false , and malicious railinge .

The Apologie , Cap. 10. Diuision . 1.

Surely , to haue the principal staie , and effecte of al maters committed wholy to these mennes handes , who neither knowe , nor wil knowe these thinges , nor yet set a iote by any poincte of Religion , saue that , whiche concerneth their belly , and riot , and to haue them alone sitte as Iudges , and to be set vp as ouerseers in the Watche tower , being no better then Blinde Spies : of the other side , to haue a christian Prince of good vnderstandinge , & of a right iudgemente , to stande stil like a blocke , or a stake , not to be suffred , neither to geeue his voice , nor to shewe his iudgemente , but onely to waite , what these menne shal wil , and commaunde , as one , whiche had neither eares , nor eies , nor witte , nor harte , and , whatsoeuer they geeue in charge , to allowe it without exception , blindely fulfilling their Commaundementes , be they neuer so blasphemous , and wicked , yea , although they commaunde him quite to destroie al Religion , and to Crucifie againe Christe him selfe , This surely , bisides that it is proude , and spiteful , is also beyonde al right , and reason , and not to be endured of Christian , & wise Princes . For why , I praie you , maie Caiphas , & Annas vnderstande these maters , and maie not Dauid , and Ezechias doo the same ? Is it lauful for a Cardinal , beinge a man of warre , and delitinge in Bloude , to haue place in a Councel : and is it not lauful for a Christian Emperoure , or a Kinge ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Hereto M. Hardinge saithe nothinge , but that he hath oftentimes saide before .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 1.

Verely , wee graunte no further Libertie to our Magistrates , then that we knowe hath bothe benne geeuen them by the Woorde of God , and also confirmed by the Examples of the very best gouerned Common Wealthes .

M. Hardinge .

If a man shoulde aske you , where that woorde of God is , that maketh a temporall Prince Supreme head of that parte of the Churche , which he hath gournement of in al ciuil matters , I am sure you can bringe foorthe * * Vntruthe . For wee allege many other places bisides , as it maie soone appeare . no other woorde of God . then that , wherein S. Peter , 1. Pet. 2. Rom. 13. and S. Paule willeth al menne to obeie the Superiour powers , especially Kinges . Whiche thinge was written to all Christian men , whiles they liued vnder Heathen Princes , and Infidels , as Claudius Cesar , and Nero were , whom , I suppose , ye wil not saie to haue benne heades of the whole Churche , as they were Monarkes and Princes of the whole worlde . Supreme Heade . Supreme Gouernoure . If then by those Scriptures whiche cannot proue Nero ( beinge a * * Then cannot the Pope be Heade of the Churche : For he hath persecuted the Church as mutche , as Nero. persecutour of Christes Churche ) to haue ben heade of the same , you wil now proue , that other Princes are supreme heads of the Churche : it semeth that either you make Nero heade of the Churche with them , or geue more vnto them , then the word of God wil beare . And as for examples of good common weales , shewe vs but one since Christes ascension , wherein before Luthers time , any Emperour Christian , or other Prince did attribute that title vnto him selfe : and we wil saie , that , when you speake of common weales in the plural number , you make but one lye : but in case you shew vs no one common weale that hath so done , then you lie in the plural number . Yea further , if at this daie the common weales in Christendome , not onely that are Catholike , but the beste also of those , that are Lutherishe , and newfangled , do abhorre from that strange , and vnheard title of ‡ ‡ Mutche a doo about nothing : For our Prince hath not this Title . But Queene Marie had , and vsed the same title of Supreme Heade : as many waies it maie be proued . supreme head of the Churche , why do you saie , that ye haue , either worde of God for it , or example of approued common weales ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Concerning the title of Supreme Head of the Churche , wée néede not to searche for Scriptures to excuse it . For , firste , wée diuised it not : Secondly , wée vse it not : Thirdly , our Princes at this presente claime it not . Your Fathers , M. Harding , firste entitled that moste Noble , and moste Woorthy Prince , Kinge Henrie the Eighth , with that Vnused , and Strange Style , as it maie wel be thought , the rather to bringe him into the talke , and sclaunder of the worlde .

Howe be it , that the Prince is the Highest Iudge , & Gouernoure ouer al his Subiectes what so euer , as wel Priestes , as Laie menne , without exception , it is moste euidente , by that hath benne already saide : by that shal be saide hereafter : by the whole course of the Scriptures : and by the vndoubted practise of the Primitiue Churche . Verily , the Prince , as it shal afterwarde better appeare , had Bothe the Tables of the Lawe of God euermore committed to his charge : as wel the Firste , that perteineth to Religion , as also the Seconde , that perteineth to Ciuile Gouernemente .

But nowe , M. Hardinge , if a man would aske you , by what Woorde of God your Priestes , and Bishoppes haue exempted them selues from the Iudgement , and Gouernement of theire Princes : Or , by what Woord of God the Princes hande is restreined more from his Cleregie , then from other his Subiectes : or , by what Woorde of God , yee woulde stablishe Twoo Supreme Gouernoures in one Realme , I marueile , in what Scriptures yée woulde seeke to finde it . Your owne Doctoures , and Glosers saie , as it is before alleged : Extra . De maiorita . & obedien. Ca. 2. In margi . Quaeritur , quis exemit Clericum de Iurisdictione Imperatoris , cùm priùs esset illi Subiectus ? Dicit Laurentius , quòd Papa de consensu Principis : Question is moued , who hath exempted the Prieste from the Iurisdiction of the Emperour , whereas before he was his Subiecte ? Laurentius saith ( not the Woorde of God , but ) the Pope exempted him , by the Consente of the Prince .

Further , M. Hardinge , we beséeche you , by what Woorde of God can your Pope claime him self , to be the Heade of the Vniuersal Churche of God ? Where is it recorded ? Where is it written ? In what parte of the Testamente , Newe or Olde ? In what Lawe ? In what Prophete ? In what Epistle ? In what Gospel ? Where is his Headship ? Where is his Vniuersal Power ? If yée can finde it , then maie yee shewe it : If it cannot be founde , then shoulde yée not saie it . As for that you , and other your Felowes haue alleged before , for proufe hereof , it is so childish , & so weake , that , I thinke , yée cannot now comme againe with the same , without blusshinge .

Touchinge the Right , that wée saie , belongeth vnto al Christian Princes , it hath benne inuested , Epist Eleutherij . Citatur inter Leges Edwardi Primi . and planted in them from the beginninge . For , to leaue other Authorities of the Scriptures , Pope Eleutherius him selfe wrote thus vnto Lucius , sommetime Kinge of this Realme of Englande : Vos estis Vicarius Dei in Regno , iuxta Prophetam Regium : You are Goddes Vicare within your owne Realme , according to the Prophete Dauid .

Paule the Bishop of Apamea , writeth thus vnto the Emperoure Iustinian , in a cause mere Ecclesiastical , touchinge Religion : Transtulit ipsum Dominus , vt Plenitudinem directionis vestrae custodiret Serenitati : Quintae Synodi Act io . 1 pijssimo . Our Lorde hath taken Pope Agapetus awaie , that he might leaue the Fulnesse of order ( concerninge these Heretiques , Dioscorus , and Eutyches ) vnto your Maiestie .

Tertullian saith , Tertullian . Ad Scapulam . Colimus Imperatorem , vt hominem à Deo Secundum , Solo Deo Minorem : Wee Woorship the Emperoure , as a man nexte vnto God , and inferioure onely vnto God .

And , nothwithstanding the name of Heade of the Churche belonge peculiarely , and onely vnto Christe , as his onely Right , and Enheritance ( for as the Churche is the Body , so Christe is the Heade ) yet maie the same sommetimes also be applied in sober meaning , and good sense , not onely vnto Princes , but also vnto others , far inferiour vnto Princes . Chrysostome saithe , Videntur mihi istae mulieres Caput fuisse Ecclesiae , Chryso . in Epist. ad Phili. Hom. 13 A Wooman Head of the Churche . Chrysosto . ad Populum Antioch . Homil. 2. quae illic erat : It seemeth vnto mee , that these weemen were the Heade of the Churche , that was at Philippi . Likewise againe , speaking of the Emperoure , he saithe thus : Laesus est , qui non habet parem vllum super terram , Summitas , & Caput omnium super terram hominum : Wee haue offended him , that in the Earthe hath no peere , the Toppe , and the Heade of al menne in the Worlde . If he were the Heade of al menne , then was he the Heade , not onely of Bishoppes , and Cardinalles , but also of the Pope him selfe : Onlesse the Pope were no man .

To conclude , our Princes néede nomore to claime their Lawful Authoritie , and Emperial Righte , by the Example of Nero , whereof yée haue moued mutche vntimely , and wanton talke , then your Pope néedeth to claime his Vsurped , & Coloured Power , by the Examples of Annas , and Caiphas .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 2.

For besides that , a Christian Prince hath the charge of Bothe Tables committed to him by God , to the ende he maie vnderstande , that , not Temporal maters onely , but also Religious , and Ecclesiastical Causes perteine to his office , &c.

M. Hardinge .

You wil proue that Ecclesiastical causes perteine to a Kinges of fice , because he hath the charge of bothe tables . If you meane that a Kinge is bounde to kepe bothe tables of the lawe , so is also euery priuate man . And yet , as no priuate man is supreme heade of the Churche by kepinge them , so neither the Kinge is proued thereby the ‡ ‡ A graue disputer . Ye conclude againste that , that is not auouched . supreme heade . If you meane that the Kinge ought to see others to kepe bothe tables of the lawe : that maie he do , either in appointinge temporal paines for the transgressours of them , or in executinge the saide paines vpon the transgressours . But as he cannot excommunicate any man for not apperinge , when he is called , so can he not iudge al causes of the lawe . For if a man sinne onely in his harte , as for example , in murther , or aduoutrie : the Kinge cannot haue to do with him . And yet the true supreme heade of the Church shal haue to do with him . For that malicious and sinful thought * * Vntruthe , fonde , and manifeste , and leadinge directely to desperation . shal neuer be foregeuen , excepte the party come to be absolued of theire Successours , to whom Christe saide , Iohan. 20. whose sinnes ye forgeue ▪ they are forgeuen : and whose sinnes ye reteine , they are reteined . To committe murder in harte , is a sinne , and it is reteined vntil it be forgeuen . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe ioined with blasphemie . Reade the Answeare . Neither can it be forgeuen . vntil he that is Iudge , by the keie of discretion , perceiue that it is to be forgeuen . Which he cannot know , vntil it be confessed with a contrite hart , by him who onely knoweth it , and is bounde to tel it , for absolutions sake . If then there be a iudge , who can see the lawe kepte in an higher pointe , and beyond the reache of the King , surely the King shal not be supreme head ▪ sith an other is more like to God , then he . A● who is iudge of the inwarde conscience , whereunto no Kinge reacheth , Matth. 16. but * * A fonde folie . For this Keie is geeuen no more to the Pope , then to any other Simple Prieste . onely the minister of Christe ▪ who is the spiritual Kinge , and hath geuen the keies of his Kingdome to his minister .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , yée roa●e , and wander without a marke , and replie to that , that was not spoken . I marueile , whereof yée can spinne your selfe sutch idle talke . For wée neither calle our Princes the Heades of the Churche of Christe : ( it was your Fathers inuention , and not ours ) nor saie wée , They haue Power , either to Excommunicate , or to Binde , or to Loose : nor haue wée leasure to make sutche vaine Conclusians .

Thus wée saie , the Prince is put in truste , as wel with the Firste , as with the Seconde Table of the Lawe of God : that is to saie , as wel with Religion , and with Temporal Gouernemente : not onely to kéepe , and perfourme the contentes of Bothe Tables , in his owne Persone ( for so mutche euery priuate man is bound to doo ) but also to sée , that al others his Subiectes , as wel Priestes , as Laiemenne , eche man in his callinge , doo dewly kéepe them . This is it , that no Priuate man is hable to doo . August . in Epist. 50. Ad Bonifac. Therefore S. Augustine saithe , In hoc seruiunt Domino Reges , in quantum sunt Reges , cùm ea faciunt ad seruiendum illi , quae non possunt facere , nisi Reges : Herein Kinges serue the Lorde , in that they be Kinges , when they doo those thinges to serue him , that noman can doo , but onely Kinges . Wee saie not , the Prince is bound to doo the Bishoppes deutie : And therefore it is the greatter sol●e of your parte , M. Hardinge , to obiecte it so often . Wise menne vse not so to aduenture their woordes in vaine . But thus wée saie , The Prince to bounde to see the Bishoppes to doo theire deuties .

But what meante you , so far out of season , to talke so fondly of your Priuie Confessions , of Bindinge , and Loosinge , and Power of Keies ? For , as it is saide before , wée saie not , that Princes maie , either Binde , or Loose : or Minister Sacramentes : or Preache the Gospel : or sitte downe , and Heare Confessions . Therefore with al this greate adoo , yée foine onely at your owne shadowe , and hit nothinge .

Yée saie ful discretely , Yf a man sinne onely in his harte , the Kinge cannot haue to doo with him , for that be cannot enter , to knowe his secretes . Here , I beséeche you , M. Hardinge , what entrance hath the Pope , to knowe the secretes of the Harte ? Perhaps yée wil saie , the Pope maie knowe al the worlde by Confession . But S. Augustine saithe , Quid mihi est cum hominibus , August . Confess . Lib. 10. Cap. 3. vt audiant Confessiones meas , &c. Vnde sciunt , cùm à me ipso de me ipso audiunt , an verum dicam : quandoquidem nemo scit hominum quid agatur in homine , nisi Spiritus hominis , qui in ipso est : What haue I to doo with these menne , that they shoulde heare my Confessions , &c. Howe knowe they , when they heare mee report of mee selfe , whether I saie true , or no ? For noman knoweth , what is in man , but the Sprite of man , Aug. in Psal. 126 that is within him . Againe he saithe vnto the people , Intrantes vos , & exeuntes possumus videre . Vsqueadeò autem non videmus , quid cogitetis in cordibus vestris , vt neque quid agaris in domibus vestris videre possimus : Wee maie see you comminge in , and goeinge foorth . But wee are so far from seeinge the thoughtes of your hartes , that wee cannot see , what you doo at home in your houses . Likewise againe he saithe , Aug. in Psal. 127 Quid singulorum quorumque modò conscientiae dixerint , ad aures meas , quia homo sum , peruenire non potuit . Ille , qui Absens est praesentia Corporis , sed Praesens est Vigore Maiestatis , audiuit vos : What euery of your Consciences hath saide , it coulde not enter into my eares , for that I am but a Mortal man . Notwithstandinge , Christe , that is Absente , as touchinge the Presence of his Body , but presente by the Power of his Maiestie , hath hearde you wel . It is , not the Pope , but God onely , that trieth the reines , and searcheth the harte .

Yet yée saie , the True Supreme Heade of the Churche shal haue to doo with him , that sinneth onely secretely in his harte : For that malitious , and sinful thought , saie you , shal neuer be foregeuen , excepte the partie comme to be Absolued of theire Successours , to whom Christe said , Whoes sinnes yee foregeue , &c. This , M. Hardinge , is the Supreme Folie of al others Folies . For firste , where euer hearde you , that the Pope would lonce vouchesaue to Heare Confessions ? And , if he woulde , yet by yours owne Doctoures Iudgemente , the Pope hath nomore Power to Binde , and to Loose , then any other Poore Simple Prieste . As I haue shewed you before , Alphonsus de Castro saithe , Alphons . De Haeresib . Lib. 2. De Absolutione . Origen . in Matthae . Tractat. 1. Quando Absoluit Simplex Sacerdos , tantum Absoluit de Culpa , sicut Papa : When a Simple Prieste Absolueth , he Absolueth as mutche , touchinge the faulte , as if it were the Pope him selfe . Origen saithe , Quae sequuntur , velut ad Petrum dicta , sunt omnium communia , &c. Quod si nos idem loquimur , quod Petrus loquutus est , efficimur Petrus : The woordes , that folowe , as spoken vnto Peter , are common vnto al. If wee speake the saine , that Peter spake , then are wee made Peter . Euen in the Popes owne Glose vpon his Decretalles it is noted thus , In necessitate Laicus potest & Audire Confessiones , & Absoluere : In case of necessitie a Laieman maie bothe heare Confessions , Extra . De of fic . Iudicis Ordina . Pastoralis . In Gloss . and also geue Absolution . Yet wil yée not saie , that euery Laieman is Peters Successoure .

To what pourpose then serueth al this your vaine talke , M. Hardinge , The true Supreme Head of the Churche shal haue to doo with him , that sinneth onely in his harte ? For euery Simple Prieste , hauinge the keie of Goddes Woorde , entreth into the harte , & hath to doo with the same , as wel , and as mutche , as the Pope : & in respecte of beinge Iudge of the Conscience , is aboue Kinges , & Princes , nolesse then he .

But , where yée saie , The malitious , and sinful thought shal neuer be forgeuen , except the partie comme to be Absolued of theire Successours , to whom Christe said , whoes sinnes yee foregeue , &c. this Doctrine is not onely strange and false , but also ful of Desperation . Your owne Gratian saith , De poenit . Dist. 1 Quis aliquado . Latentia peccata non probantur necessariò Sacerdoti confitenda : It is not proued ( by any sufficient Authoritie either of Scriptures , or of Doctours ) that Secrete Sinnes are of necessitie to be vttered in Confession vnto the Prieste . Againe he saithe , De poenit . Dis. 1. Conuertimin● . In eodem Cap. Datur intelligi , quòd etiam ore tacente , veniam consequi possumus : It is geuen vs to vnderstand , that wee maie obteine pardone , although wee vtter nothing with our Mouth . And againe , Non Sacerdotali iudicio , sed largitate Diuinae Gratiae peccator emendatur : The Sinner is cleansed , not by the Iudgemente of the Prieste , but by the abundance of Goddes Grace . De poenit . Dis. 1 Omnis qui. Againe he saithe , Confessio Sacerdoti offertur in signum veniae , non in causam Remissionis accipiendae : Confession is made vnto the Priest , in token of Foregeuenesse already obteined : not as a cause of Foregeuenesse to be obteined . Your very Glose saithe , De poenit . Dis. 5. In poeniten . In Glossa . Apud Graecos Confessio non est necessaria : quia non emanauit ad illos Traditio talis : Emong the Christians in Graecia Confession of Sinnes is not necessarie : for that this Tradition neuer came emonge them . Yet , M. Hardinge , I trowe , yee wil not saie , but theire sinnes maie be foregeuen .

Certainely Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. De Confess . & poenit . Solus te Deus confitentem videat : Let God onely see thee making the Confession of thy Sinnes .

It was very mutche therefore , M. Hardinge , for you , so assuredly , and so precisely to saie , that sinnes can neuer be foregeuen without your Priuie Confession : and specially thereby to proue the Vniuersal Headeship of the Pope .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 3.

Bisides also , that God by his Prophetes often , and earnestly commaundeth the King , to cutte downe the Groues : to breake downe the Images , and Aultars of Idoles : and to Write out the Booke of the Lawe for him self : The Prince iudgeth in Ecclesiastical causes . and bisides that , the Prophete Esaias saith , a Kinge ought to be a Patrone , and a Nurse of the Churche , &c.

M. Hardinge .

Your seconde argumente for the Ecclesiastical Power of Kinges is , because God bad them to cut downe superstitious groues , and ouerthrowe idols : * * The Kinge is the Priestes Executioner . as though this were not an office of executinge a commaundemente , rather then of decreeinge any thinge . The Authoritie to discerne an image of Christ from an idol of the deuil , belongeth to them , who knowe , that an image is a name of art , which is of God : an idol is a name of false woorshippinge , whiche is of the Deuil . So that an image is godly : and idol deuilishe . When the Prieste hath iudged this , or that , to be an idol , or when it is euident , that so it is , then the kinge shal do wel to breake it downe . ‡ ‡ O Vanitie of Vanities : Aaron the Bishop sette vp the Golden Calfe , and cried vnto the people , This is thy God . But Moses the Ciuile Magistrate , or Prince , brake it downe . But if the Kinge wil breake downe the image of Christe , when the Priest telleth him it is a godly representation , and no idol : then the Kinge dothe more then his office requireth : And shal not onely not proue his supremacie , but also shal incurre danger to be reiected of God , 1. Reg. 28. as Kinge Saul was , when he despised to keepe the commaundement of Samuel the high Prieste .

Whereas you alleage for a Kinges Ecclesiastical Power , that he was commaunded to write out the Booke of the lawe for him selfe : why lefte ye out that , whiche foloweth there immediately , accipiens exemplar à Sacerdotibus Leuiticae tribus ? Deut. 17. The Kinge muste write out a Booke of the Deuteronomie : but the example thereof he must receiue of the Priestes that be of the tribe of Leut. If in spiritual matters the Kinge were aboue the Priestes . * * Ful discretely . As though Kinges had not Officers , to keepe theire Recordes . why had he not the Kepinge of the Lawe in his owne handes ? Why muste he take it of the Priestes ? why did not rather the Priestes come to him , sith the inferiour taketh al his right of the superiour ? If the Priestes muste geue the holy scripture vnto the Kinge , then verely muste he take sutche as they geue him , and with such meaning , as they geue vnto it . So that if you had not ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For wee haue falsified no parte hereof : as it shal appeare . falsefied the meaninge of Gods woorde by leauinge out halfe the sentence , this place had proued againste you . It is to be weyed to what ende a Kinge is required to haue , and to reade that holy Booke . Verely not to take vpon him the parte of a iudge in causes of Religion : but as there it is expressed , to th intent he learne to feare his Lorde God , Deut. 17. and kepe his woordes , and ceremomonies in the lawe commaunded , and that his harte be not lifted vp into pride , aboue his brethren , &c. * * Here M. Hard. would faine saie sommewhat if he wiste what it were . Reade the Answeare . I omitte , that you reade , Librum legis , whereas the Churche readeth Deuteronomium : * it were too longe to enter into that disputation . The booke of the lawe , signifieth the whole law : the Deuteronomie is but one of the fiue bookes .

Where Esaie calleth a Kinge a Patrone of the Churche , I haue not founde . But were it he called him so , it betokeneth , that he shoulde defende the Churche from worldly ennimies , as in repellinge the Turkes , in expellinge Heretikes , and sutche like Kingely actes . Whiche proueth no spiritual supremacie , but vnder God a fealtie , and seruiceable power . I finde where Esaie saith , Et erunt Reges nutricij tui , & Reginae nutrices tuae . Cap. 49. Kinges shal be thy fosterers , and Quenes thy nourses . But not euery nourse , or fosterer is aboue him , who is nourished . ‡ ‡ By this prety Conclusion , the Kinge is the Seruant : and the Prieste is the Maister . A faitheful seruant oftentimes fostereth the maister . Yet is he not aboue his maister . Besides , S. Hierome vnderstandeth the Kinges , whom Esaie nameth , to be the Apostles : accordinge to whiche sense , it maketh nothinge to the purpose it is alleaged for .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Al Christian Princes are mutche beholden to you , M. Harding : yée make them so like to Polyphemus the Giante . after his eies were striken out : that is to saie , to a man mighty in body , and greate in boanes : but starke blinde , and no waie hable to guide him selfe . A King , yée saie , maie not take vpon him , to Iudge , or Pronounce in maters of Religion , bee they neuer so cleare : but onely must hearken , & be ready to execute , what so euer shal be thought good , and commaunded by your Bishoppes : as if he were onely your Bishoppes man . So saithe your Holy Father Pope Bonifacius . 8. Gladius Materialis exercendus est manu Regum , De Maior . & Obedien. Vnam Sanctam . & Militum : Sed ad nutum , & patientram Sacerdotis : The Material , or Temporal Swerde muste be vsed by the hande of Kinges , The Prince iudgeth in Ecclesiastical causes . and Souldiers : but at the becke , and sufferance of the Prieste : By which Prieste he meaneth the Pope .

But Dauid saithe , Now , yee Kinges , haue vnderstanding : Be learned , yee , that iudge the Earthe . Psalm. 2. Good Kinges haue oftentimes refourmed Religion , and haue lawfully controlled , and corrected , and deposed idle , and wicked Bishoppes : as before , in place conueniente , Authen . Constitu . 123. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . it is largely proued . The Emperoure Iustinian threateneth , if the Bishop offended in saieing the publique seruice , or in the Ministration of the Sacramentes , that then he him selfe woulde vse his Authoritie ouer him , and see him pounished . Franciscus Zarabella saith , that for any crime notorious , the Emperour maie summone the Pope , to appeare before his Maiestie , and maie require him , to yelde a reckening of his Faithe . And yet wil yée saie , The Emperoure is stil the Popes man , Fancis . Zarabell . De Schemate , & Concil. and maie iudge nothinge in Causes of Religion without him ?

The Kinge , yée saie , is not hable to Iudge , whether an Idole be an Idole , or no , but by the leadinge , and teachinge of the Prieste . So wel yée wishe al Christian Princes were instructed , that thei should not be hable , either to sée , or to speake without you . But , what if you Priestes saie , as it hath often happened , God is an Idole , & an Idole is God ? Esai 5. Actor . 19. Iohan. 18. Light is Darkenesse : and Darkenesse is Light ? what if they saie , Greate is Diana the Goddesse of Ephesus ? What if they condemne the innocente , and saie , as they smometime saide of Christe , Onlesse this man were a malefactoure , wee woulde neuer haue brought him to thy hande ? Yet muste the Prince neuerthelesse drawe his Swerde , and strike , when , and whom so euer the Prieste biddeth : and blindely execute his wicked wil ? M. Hardinge , Pag. 302 a. M. Hardinge . Pag. 192 a. Pag. 192. b. In déede , M. Hardinge , you saie precisely : If the mater decreed be Spiritual , and apperteininge to Faithe , the Prince ought to obeie without question , or grudge Likewise againe yée saie , It shal be yenough for you , to doo , as the Successoures of Peter bid you to doo . Christe nowe requireth of you , not to obeie Peter , and Paule : but to obeie him , that sitteth in theire Chaire : What so euer he saie , True , or false . For this , no doubte , muste be your meaninge .

The Kinge was bound to write out the Booke of the Lawe . This , yée saie , proueth not the Kinges Superioritie ouer the Priestes . No verily , M. Hardinge : Neither was it alleged by vs to that pourpose . Neuerthelesse , hereby it appeareth , that God woulde haue the Kinge to be learned in his Lawes .

But the Kinge muste receiue the Booke of the Prieste , and of none other : Therefore , saie you , the Prieste is aboue the Kinge . Mée thinketh , M. Hardinge , euen for your credites sake , yée shoulde looke better to your Logique . For what auaileth the deliuerie of a Booke , Ceremoniari . Lib. 2. Sectio . 2. to make the Prieste , either higher , or lower ? When the Pope is at his Consecration , the Cardinal , that is his Orderer , deliuereth him a Booke of the Epistles , and Gospelles . And wil ye thereof conclude , that the saide Cardinal is aboue the Pope ? Mary , God forebidde .

Goddes meaning , Paul . Phagius in Deuter. Cap. 17. touching this Ceremonie . was this , that the Kinges Booke shoulde he true , and fautlesse . And therefore God commaunded him to take a Copie thereof , out of the Registrie , or Recordes , whiche were thought to be voide of al corruption , and were euermore keapte in the Temple , vnder the Custodie of the Priestes . Paulus Phagius saithe , Euery Priuate man was commaunded to haue one Booke seuerally to him selfe : But the Kinge was commaunded to haue twoo . And , for as mutche as the Kinge was a Publique Persone , therefore God willed him to take his Copie out of the publique Recordes of the Temple .

Your owne Hugo cardinalis saithe , Hugo in Deute . Cap. 17. Accipiet exemplar à Sacerdotibus : non à quibussibet , sed à bonis : Vbi nihil fucatum est : nihil corruptum : He shal take his Copie of the Priestes : not of euery Prieste , what so euer : but of the good : that in the same Copie there be nothing , neither coloured , nor corrupted .

Al this , M. Hardinge , wil hardely proue your strange Conclusion , that the Prieste was Superioure to the King : Deuteronomie . A copie . A Double . It séemeth mutche better to proue the contrarie , that the Prieste was the Kinges Inferioure , and his Subiecte , and his Clerke of Recordes , as beinge appointed to keepe his Bookes . So S. Augustine saithe , Augusti . Contra Faustum . Lib. 16. Cap. 21. Et in Psal. 58. Et sapè alibi . the Iewes this daie kéepe the very true Bookes of the Scriptures : Al be it , not for theire owne vse , but onely for ours . And therefore , he saithe , they be , not our Superiours , but our Seruantes .

Certainely , concerninge the Kinges , and Priestes of the Olde Lawe , one of your owne frendes , whom for many causes yée maie not wel refuse , saithe thus : In Veteri Lege Sacerdotium indignius erat Potestate Regia , & ei Subiectum : In the Olde Lawe the Priestes Office was Inferioure to the Prince , Iohan. De paris . De potesta . Reg. et Papali . Cap. 5. and Subiecte Vnto him .

Yée saie , If the Prieste muste geeue the Holy Scriptures to the Kinge , then verily muste he take sutche , as they geeue him : and with sutche meaninge , as they geeue vnto it . Yea , I trowe , though they teare theire roabes againste Christe , as Caiphas did , and crie out , He blasphemeth , yet muste wee by your Iudgemente , euermore seeke to them for the sense , and meaninge of the Scriptures . For this is the grounde , and Fundation of your Diuinitie : The Scripture of God hathe none other sense , but as it shal please the Prieste to geeue vnto it . But S. Chrysostome , speakinge of the same Priestes , and Bishoppes , from whome we haue receiued the selfe same Scriptures , saithe thus : Chrysosto . in Genesim . Homil. 9. Literae quidem Legis apud illos sunt : Sensus autem apud nos : The Letters , or woordes of the Scriptures are with them : but the true meaninge of them is with vs .

Here you mutche disaduantage your selfe , and , as yée saie , omitte , that we reade , Librum Legis , whereas the Churche readeth , Deuteronomium : for that , as yée saie , it were too longe for you , to enter into that disputation . Therefore , M. Hardinge , we wil patiently abide your leasure , vnt il yée haue founde out the whole mysterie , and considered it better . In the meane season , it shal not be good for you , to be ouer ranke with your Commentaries , vntil yée better vnderstande the Texte . Certainely , the wise and learned thinke , that herein yée are mutche deceiued . For , whereas the Woordes are these , Describet sibi Deuteronomium Legis huius , they thinke , that , Deuteronomium , in this place , is not put for any one certaine seueral Booke of the Fiue Bookes of Moses , as it is otherwise commonly vsed , but rather for a Copie , or a Draught of the Whole Lawe . And in this sense they saie , that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is none other , but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is to saie , a Copie , or a Double . Questo Doppio . Le Double . The Italian Translation hathe thus , Esso si scriuera questo Doppio de la Legge . The Frenche Translation hath . Le double . Leo Iudas translateth it thus , Describet sibi Exemplum Legis huius : He shal write out for him selfe a Copie of this Lawe . And , for somme proufe hereof , it is thus written in the Booke of Iosua : Afterwarde Iosua readde out of the woordes of the Lawe , bothe the Blessinges , and the Curses , Iosua . 8. accordinge to euery thinge , that is written in the Booke of the Lawe . And there was not one woord of al the thinges , that Moses Commaunded , but Josua readde the same before the whole congregation of Israel .

Where we allege the woordes of the Prophete Esai , Kinges shal be thy Fosterers , and Queenes thy Nurces : yée saie , Euery Nurce , or Fosterer , is not aboue him , that is nourished . A faitheful seruante oftentimes fostereth his Maister . Yet is not he aboue his Maister . So lothe yee are , the Kinge shoulde be Superioure to a Prieste . And thus hanc yée brought about by your handsome Conclusions , that your Priestes be the Maisters , and Kinges theire Seruantes . And therefore it is discretely noted in your Glose , Imperator Romanus est Procurator , Dis. 98. Si Imperator . In Glossa . siue Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae : The Emperoure of Rome is the Stewarde , or Bailife of the Churche of Rome .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 4. & 5.

I saie , The Pope a Kinge . Moses a Prieste . bisides al these thinges , we see by Histories , & by Examples of the beste times , that good Princes euer tooke the Administration of Ecclesiastical maters to perteine to theire duetie .

Moses , Exod. 32. beinge a Ciuile Magistrate , and chiefe Guide of the people , bothe receiued from God , and deliuered to the people al the order for Religion , and Sacrifices , and gaue Aaron the Bishop a vehemente , and soare rebuke for makinge the Golden Calfe , and for sufferinge the Corruption of Religion .

M. Hardinge .

Moses was not onely a Ciuile Magistrate . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For at that time he was no Prieste . but also a Prieste . In that he had both offices , * * Vntruthe . For it proueth the contrarie . Reade the Answeare . it proueth that a Priest may haue both : but not contrariwise , that a King may haue both For the greater may include the lesse , but the lesse can not include the greater . ‡ ‡ Vntruth , confessed by M. H. frendes . For in the time of Moses Lawe , the Prieste was inferiours to the Prince . The office of a Priest is the highest of al. * * Substantial Argumentes , whereby to proue the Pope a Kinge . And Christe comming naturally of the Kinges line from Dauid in the tribe of Iuda , yet estemed that honor nothinge in respecte of that he was a Prieste according to the order of Melchisedech . Therefore Melchisedech also beinge both Prieste and Kinge , was not yet saide to be the figure of Christe so mutche concerninge his Kingedome , Psal. 109. as his Priesthoode . For Dauid said of Christe , Thou art a Prieste for euer after the order of Melchtsedech . As for his Kingedome , it was included in his Priestes office . And therefore when we speake of Christes Kingedome , though in euery respecte he be the very Kinge in dede of al Kinges , Iustinus in Dial. aduersus Typh . Exod. 19. 1. Pet. 2. and Lord of al Lordes : yet we assigne it also to haue ben vpon the Crosse , vbiregnauit à ligno Deus , where God reigned from the woodde . Accordinge to the same meaninge , whereas the people of Israel were called Regnum Sacerdotale , a Priestly Kingedome : S. Peter writing to the Christians , tourned the order of the wordes , calling the Churche of Christ , Sacerdotium Regale , a Kingely Priesthoode . Moses was both a Prieste and a Ciuile Gouernoure , as beinge a figure of Christe , who ioined both together , makinge the tribe of Iuda , which was before kingly , now also to be Priestly . Therefore S. Augustine vpon those wordes of Dauid , Psal. 98. Moses and Aaron are in the number of his Priestes , concludeth , that Moses muste nedes haue benne a Prieste . ‡ ‡ Discretely reasoned . For al this perteineth as wel to a Simple Prieste , as to the Pope . For ( saithe he ) if he were not a Priest , what was he ? ‡ Nunquid maior sacerdote esse potuit , could he be greater then a Prieste ? ‡ As who shoulde saie , there is no greater dignitie , then priesthoode . And , seinge Moses had the greatest dignitie , for he ruled al , and consecrated Aaron high Bishop , and his sonnes Priestes , therefore him selfe muste nedes haue ben a Prieste . * * Louanian Logique . Moses Consecrated Aaron : Ergo , The Pope is a Kinge . Nowe if Moses were bothe , and his chiefe office was Priesthoode , it foloweth by that example , that the Pope maie rule temporally , but not that a Kinge maie rule spiritually . This you haue gained nothinge by this example .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here M. Hardinge hath many greate woordes of smal weight . The final Conclusion , and Summa summarum is this : The Pope muste needes be a Kinge . And that he proueth , as his manner is , by these his yonge vntiedy Argumentes : Moses , being a Ciuile Magistrate , or a Prince , had also the Priesthoode , & was a Prieste : Ergo , saithe he , The Pope , beinge a Prieste , muste haue also the Kingedome , & be a Kinge . And thus he peeceth these maters handsomely togeather , as though , what so euer were once in Moses , ought of necessitie to be also in the Pope . But if a man shoulde desire him to proue his Argumente , & to make it good , and to shewe vs , howe these péeces maie be framed togeather , I thinke , he would be faine to take a daie . Firste , whether Moses were a Prieste , or no , it is not certaine . As for that , Psal. 98. M. Harding allegeth these woordes of Dauid , Moses , & Aaron in Sacerdotibus eius , he him selfe wel knoweth , that the Hebrewe woorde there , is doubteful , and signifieth as wel a Prince , as a Prieste . S. Hierome saithe , Vnus Legis , The Pope is a Kinge . Moses a Prieste . alte● Sacerdotij Regulam tenuit : Moses helde the Rule of the Lawe : Aaron the Rule of Priesthoode . Againe he saithe , Emisit ante faciem nostram Mosen Spiritualem Legem , & Aaron magnum Sacerdotem : God sente out before our face , Moses ( not as the Prieste , but as ) the Spiritual Lawe , Hiero , in Psal. 98 Hierony in Micheam Cap. 6. Hugo . in Psal. 98. and Aaron the greate Prieste . Euen Hugo , your owne Doctoure , touching the same woordes , saithe thus , Moses etsi , &c. Notwithstandinge Moses were not a Prieste , yet bicause he halowed the peoples praiers , &c. he was called a Prieste . For in the Scriptures Greate , and Noble menne are called by the name of Prieste . Who so listeth to knowe more hereof , let him reade Sanctes Pagninus , Dauid Kimchi , Nicolaus Lyra , &c.

But , if Moses in déede were a Prieste , yee shoulde doo wel , M. Hardinge , to resolue vs , first , whether he were a Prieste borne , or els afterwarde made a Prieste . A Prieste borne , I trowe , yée wil not saie . If yée saie , he was afterwarde made a Prieste , then tel vs , by what Bishop , or other Creature was he Consecrate ? At whoes handes receiued he Authoritie ? When , where , & to what pourpose ? What Priestelike Apparel euer ware he ? Or , in what Office , or Ministerie euer shewed he him self to be a Prieste ? Hebrae . 5. S. Paule saith , A Prieste is appointed to offer vp Oblations , and Sacrifices for sinne . What Oblations , or Sacrifices for sinne , can yée tel vs , that Moses offered ? If he were neither Borne a Prieste , nor made a Prieste , nor euer knowen by office to be a Prieste , then was he , I trowe , a very strange Prieste .

If Moses were the Highest Prieste , and Head of the Churche , and Aaron likewise the Highest Prieste , and in so mutche the Heade of the Churche too , as wel as he , then had the Churche twoo highest Bishoppes , and twoo Heades bothe togeather : Whiche thinge were monstrous , not onely in speache , but also in Nature .

Notwithstandinge , whether Moses at any one certaine time were a Prieste , or no , it is a mater not woorthy the striuinge . Certaine it is , that before the Lawe was written Kinges , & Princes , and the beste borne , and Enheritours , & the wealthiest of the people , Hierony . in Qu Hebraici , in Genesim . were euer Priestes . S. Hierome saithe , Hebraei tradunt , Primogenitos functos Officio Sacerdotum , & habuisse Vestimentum Sacerdotale : quo induti , Deo Victimas offerebant , antequam Aaron in Sacerdotium eligeretur : The Hebrewe Rabbines saie , that the Firste borne children did the office of the Priestes , and had the Priestelike Apparel , and wearing the same , offered vp theire Sacrifices vnto God , vntil the time , Hierony . in Iob. Cap. 1. that Aaron was chosen into the Priestehoode . Againe he saithe , Priuilegium Offerendi Primogenitis , vel maximè Regibus debebatur : The Priuilege of offering vp Sacrifices was dewe to the First borne of the children , but most of al vnto Kinges . The Heathen Romaine Emperours , Dist. 10. De Capitulis , in Gloss . Inter acta Gelasij . as Vespasianus , Traianus , and others , to encrease their Maiestie towardes their Subiectes , biside the state of the Emprere , woulde also be called Pontifices Maximi .

Therefore wee wil graunte M. Harding , séeinge he hath taken so mutch paines , about a mater not woorthy so longe talke , that Moses for somme litle shorte time was a Prieste . Exod. 29. Yet , neuerthelesse had he no Ordinarie Priesthoode : neither was he a Prieste more , then for the space of twoo , or thrée houres , onely vntil he had Consecrated Aaron , and his children : & no lenger . Immediately afterward , al this greate Priestehoode was at an end . One of your owne Doctours , M. Hardinge , saithe thus , Heruaeus , de Potestat . pp. Ca. 18. Non erant Sacerdotes Legales , Dignitate , & Officio , sicut Aaron : Licet in necessitate , & propter defectum Sacerdotum , aliquos actus Sacerdotum fecerint : vt , quòd Moses inunxit Aaron : propter quod Moses Sacerdos dicitur in Psalmo : The Firstborne were not Priestes in Office , and Dignitie , as Aaron was : notwithstanding , in case of necessitie , and for lacke of Priestes , they did somme parte of the Priestes Office : as , that Moses anointed , or Consecrated Aaron : for whiche thinge Moses in the Psalme is called a Prieste .

This , The Pope is a Kinge . M. Hardinge , is that Fundation , that must néedes beare the burthen of your whole Churche of Rome . The Pope , yée saie , muste be a Kinge , bicause Moses was bothe Prince , and Priest . And yet your own Felowes saie , Moses by Office , and Dignitie , was neuer Prieste . Yée saie , The Pope , being a Bishop , maie be a Kinge : But of the other side , a King maie in no wise be a Bishop : & thus , either vnwitingely , or willingly , yée seeme to ouerthrowe your owne Position . For the Example , that yée grounde vpon , of Aaron , and Moses , proueth quite the contrarie . For Moses , being a Prince , did also the Office of a Bishop . But Aaron , beinge the Bishop , did neuer the Office of a Prince . Therefore hereof yée might better Conclude , the a Prince maie be a Bishop : But a Bishop maie not be a Kinge . Streighten your boltes therefore , M. Harding , & shaue them better , before yée so suddainely , I wil not saie , so rudely , shoote them from you . Neuerthelesse , yée saie , the Priesthoode , whiche is the more , maie conteine the Kingedome , beinge the lesse . In this respecte , I trowe , Extra . De Maiorita & Obedien. Solitae , In Glossa . your Glose , as it is said before , compareth the Pope to the Sonne , and the Emperoure to the Moone : & findeth out substantially by good Geometrical Proportion , that the Pope is iust seuen and fiftie times greater , then the Emperour . How be it , your owne Doctours saie , as I haue likewise shewed before , that in the Lawe of Moses , Iohan. De Paris . De potestat . Regia & Pap ca. 5. the Prince was greater then the Prieste .

That ye allege of the Priesthoode , and Kingedome of Christe , serueth you to smal purpose . For , I beseche you , what Crowne , what Scepter , what Swerde bare Christe ? What Ecclesiastical Priesthoode had he , but onely , that he executed vpon the Crosse ? Verily touching any Ciuile shewe , or outward Office , as he was no Kinge , Iohan. 18. so was he no Prieste . As he said , My Kingdome is not of this world : So might he also haue said , My Priesthoode is not of this world . Otherwise , he was bothe King , & Priest , in Power , & Vertue : but not apparently in outward office .

One of your Felowes saithe thus , Heruaeus de Potestat . Pp. Cap. 8. Pater , per Sanctos Expositores , quòd Christus non habuit in Temporalibus Authoritatem , vel Iudicium . Sed dare potuit , & dare habuit Virtutis Documentum : It appeareth by the Holy Expositours , that Christe had neither Authoritie , nor Iudgemente in thinges Temporal . But he coulde bothe geeue , and had to geeue Instructions of Vertue .

As for these twoo woordes of S. 1. Pet. 2. Peter , Yee are a Kingely Priesthoode , yée woulde not haue alleged them to this pourpose , had yée not benne in your dreame . For thinke you , that S. Peter called the whole Body of the Churche of Christe , a Kingely Priesthoode , for that you fansie your Pope to be togeather bothe Priest , and Kinge ? Certainely , the Churche of God was a Kingely Priesthoode , before either the Churche of Rome was a Churche , or the Pope of Rome was a Pope . Yee should haue somme care to deale more reuerently with the Woorde of God : For it is Holy . S. Peters meaninge is this , that euery Faithful Christian man is now , after a Spiritual , or Ghostly meaning , not onely a Prieste , but also a King : and therefore he calleth the whole Churche a Kingely Priesthoode . Tertullian saithe thus , Tertul. in Exhorta . ad Castit . Apocal. 1. Nónne & Laici Sacerdotes sumus ? Regnum quoqque nos , & Sacerdotes Deo , & Patri suo fecit : And wee , that be Laiemen , are wee not Priestes ? Truly Christe hath made euen vs a kingdome , and Priestes vnto his Father . S. Augustine saith , Aug. Q Euang. Lib. 2. Cap. 40. Hoc Sacerdotio Regali consecrantur omnes pertinentes ad Corpus Christi , Summi , & Veri Principis Sacerdotum : With this Roial Priesthoode al thei are consecrate , that perteine to the Body of Christe , whiche is the high , and true Prince of Priestes . Augu. De Ciuit. Dei Li. 20. Ca. 10 Ambros . in Lucan . Lib. 5. ap 6. Againe he saith , Omnes sunt Sacerdotes , quia Membra sunt vnius Sacerdotis : Al be Priestes , because thei are the Members of one Prieste . S. Ambrose saith , Omnes Filij Ecclesiae Sacerdotes sunt : Al the Children of the Churche be Priestes .

S. Hierome saithe , Genus Sacerdotale , & Regale sumus omnes , qui Baptizati in Christo , Hierony . in Malachi . Cap. 1. Christi censemur Nomine : Al we are that Priestely , and Kingely Kinred , The Pope is a kinge . kingely Priestehoode . that beinge Baptized in Christe , are called Christians , by the name of Christe .

Chrysostome saith , Et tu in Baptismo , & Rex efficeris , & Sacerdos , & Propheta : Euen thou in thy Baptisme art made both a King , and a Prieste , and a Prophete .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , let vs take the vlewe of youre Priestely Conclusions .

Moses once did one parte of the Bishoppes Office , Chrysost. 2. Cor. Homil. 3. to Consecrate Aaron , & his children : & that ▪ neuer at any time els ▪ neither after , nor before : Christ Rath a Spiritual Priesthoode , & a Spiritual Kingdome : for otherwise Ordinarie Priesthood , and Earthely Kingedome he had none : S. Peter calleth the whole Churche of Christe , a Kingely Priesthoode : Ergo , saie you , The Pope beareth bothe the Office of a Prieste , and also the Righte , and State of an Earthly Kinge .

To dissemble al other the fonde weakenesse of these folies , Christe him selfe saith to the Pope , Matth. 20. and to al other Priestes , and Bishoppes : The Kinges of Nations rule ouer them : and they , that are greate , exercise Authoritie ouer the people : But it shal not be so emongest you . Dist. 10. Quoniam idem . S. Cyprian saithe , as he is alleged by Gratian , Christus actibus proprijs , & Dignitatibus distinctis officia Potestatis vtriusque discreuit : Christe by seueral deuties , and distincte honoures , hath set a difference bitweene the Offices of bothe Powers .

Whereupon your owne Glose saithe , Hic est Argumentum , quòd Papa non habet vtrunque Gladium : Glossa . Here is a good Argument , that the Pope hath not bothe Swerdes .

S. Bernarde saith thus vnto Pope Eugenius , Bernar. De Considera . Lib. 2. Planum est , quòd Apostolis interdicitur Dominatus . Ergo tu tibi vsurpare aude , aut Dominans Apostolatum , aut Apostolicus Dominatum . Planè ab alterutro prohiberis . Si Vtrunque similiter habere vis , perdes vtrunque Alioqui ne te putes exceptum illorum numero , de quibus conqueritur Dominus , dicens : Ipsi regnauerunt , & non ex me : It is plaine , that Temporal Dominion is forebidden the Apostles . Nowe therefore , thou , being Pope , dare to vsurpe , either the Apostleship , beinge a Prince : or the Princehoode , beinge the successoure of the Apostles . Doubtelesse from the one of them thou arte forebidden . If thou wilte indifferentely haue bothe , thou shalte lose bothe . Otherwise thinke not , thou canste bee excepted from the mimber of them , of whom the Lorde complaineth , Thei haue made them selues kinges , and not by mee .

Concerninge the place of S. Peter , one of your companie saithe , it nothinge furthereth the Popes Kingedome . Heruaeus , de Potestat . Pp. Ca. 18. Thus he saithe , Sacerdotium dicitur Regale , à Regno , non huius mundi , sed Coeli : S. Peter calleth vs a Kingely Priesthoode , of the Kingedome of Heauen , not of the Kingedome of this worlde . Yet is this the selfe same Kingdome , that the Pope craueth , & that by the Authoritie of S. Peter .

Notwithstandinge one of your companie there , hath sente vs home lately other newes from Louaine . Dorman . Fol. 40. His woordes be these : Vos estis Regale Sacerdotium , You are a Kingly Priesthoode : as who should saie , the Priesthoode before , was not Kingly , for that then Kinges ruled ouer Priestes : But now is the Priesthoode Kingely , for that to it be subiecte euen Kinges themselues . Thus , onlesse your Priestes maie rule Kinges , & Princes , & al the world at theire pleasure , yée thinke , thei haue no Kingly Priesthoode . In the Councel , Conc. Macrense . Citatur ab Illyrico inter Testes Verita . Pag. 121. holden at Macra in France , it is written thus : Solus Dominus noster Iesus Christus verè fieri potuit & Rex , & Sacerdos . Post Incarnationem verò , & Resurrectionem , & Ascensionem eius in Coelum , nec Rex Pontificis Dignitatem : nec Pontifex Regiam Potestatem sibi vsurpare praesumpsit : Onely our Lorde Iesus Christe might truly be bothe Priest , and King . But sithence his Incarnation , and Resurrection , and Ascension into heauen , neither hath the King presumed to take vpon him the Dignitie , or office of a Bishop , nor hath the Bishop presumed to vsurpe the Power , and Maiestie of a Prince .

To be shorte , M. Hardinge , wée saie not , as you so often , & so vntruly haue reported , that the Kinge maie in any wise execute the Bishoppes Office . But thus we saie , and bicause it is true , therefore wée saie it : The Kinge maie lawfully correcte , Iosua . and chastice the Negligence , & Falsehedde of the Bishoppes : and that in so dooinge , he dooth onely his owne Office , and not the Bishoppes .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 6.

Iosua also , Iosua . Cap. 1. though he were none other , then a Ciuile Magistrate , yet as sone as he was chosen by God , and set as a Ruler ouer the people , he receiued Commaundementes , specially touching Religion , and the Seruice of God .

M. Hardinge .

There is no doubte , but Iosue receiued commission , and commaundemente to woorship God , but none to rule Priestes in spiritual matters . Num. 27. Ye rather he was commaunded to go foorthe , and come in at the voice and worde of Eleazarus the high Prieste , he and al the Children of Israel . Do not these men proue their matter handsomly ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Iosua was commaunded to goe in , and out , and to be directed by the voice of Eleazarus the High Prieste : Therefore , yée saie , in Spiritual Causes , the Priestes maie not be controlled by the Prince . Yée deliuer out youre Argumentes , M. Hardinge , before they be ready . These péeces would haue benne better tied togeather .

Though the Prince be commaunded to heare the Prieste , yet if the Prieste be negligente , or deceiue the people , he maie by his Ordinarie Authoritie controlle the Prieste .

When Aaron , the High Prieste , had consented to the makinge , and woorshippinge of the Golden Calfe , Exod. 32. Moses , beinge then the Temporal Prince , rebuked him sharpely vnto his face : and in so dooinge , did not the Bishoppes Office , but onely his owne . As touchinge Iosua , whom ye woulde faine haue restreined from al Ecclesiastical Causes , he caused the people to be Circumcised : He caused Aultars for theire Bloudy Sacrifices to be erected : He caused the Priestes to make theire Sacrifices : He caused the Deuteronomie to be written in stoanes : He caused bothe the Blessinges , and the Cursses of God to be pronounced : He spake openly to the people , and fraied them from Idolatrie . Al these were cases , not of Ciuile Policie , August . Contra Cresconium , Li. 3. Cap. 51. but of Religion . S. Augustine saithe , In hoc Reges Deo seruiunt , sicut eis Diuinitùs praecipitur , in quantum sunt Reges , si in suo Regno bona iubeant , mala prohibeant : non solùm quae pertinent ad Humanam Societatem , verùm etiam , quae ad Diuinam Religionem : Herein Kinges serue God , as it is commaunded them from aboue , in that they be Kinges , if within theire Kingedome they commaunde good thinges , and forebidde euil : not onely in thinges perteininge to Humaine Feloweship , or Ciuile Order , but also in thinges perteining to Goddes Religion . Yée maie see therefore , M. Hardinge , howe handsomely so euer wée proue our maters , that ▪ of your parte , hitherto thei are but vnhandsomely , & coursely answeared .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 7.

Kinge Dauid , when the whole Religion of God was altogeather brought out of frame by wicked Kinge Saule , 1. Paralip. 13. brought home againe the Arke of God , that is to saie , he restoared Religion againe : and was not onely amongest them him self , as a counseller , and furtherer of the woorke , but he appointed also Hymnes , and Psalmes , put in order the companies , and was the onely dooer in setting foorth that whole Solemne Triumphe , and in effecte ruled the Priestes .

M. Hardinge .

As Dauid restored all thinges to good order , Kinge Dauid ordereth maters of Religion . after the euill Kinge Saule , * * An il comparison . For that the one set vp , the other pluckte downe . so did Queene Marie redresse disorders before committed . 1. Paral. 15. But as Queene Marie did it by the meane of Priestes , so Kinge Dauid in priestly matters called for Sadoch , and Abiathar . In deede Dauid passed other Princes herein , because he had the ‡ ‡ A simple shifte God wote . For other Kinges , that did the like , were no Prophetes . gifte of Prophecie , whereby he wrote Psalmes , whiche to this daie we singe . But all this maketh nothinge to proue him Iudge of Spirituall matters . He did not vsurpe the Auctoritie to Sacrifice , to discerne the lepre , and to doo the like thinges of Priestly charge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Kinge Dauid , yee saie , restoared Religion by meane of the Priestes . Nay , verily , M. Hardinge : for by meane of the Priestes , the Religion vtterly was decaied . Therefore yée spoile that Moste Noble Prince of his woorthy prayses : and geue them to others , that neuer deserued them . The Holy Tabernacle was broken , and loste : the Arke of God was keapte , not in the Temple , but in a Priuate mannes house : the people had no common place to resorte vnto , to heare Goddes Wil : they had eche man his owne Priuate chaple in their Hilles , and Groaues .

Dauid therefore called the Bishoppes , & Priestes togeather : He shewed them , in what sorte the Religion of God was defaced : he willed them to bring the Arke into Sion : he was presente him selfe : he appointed , and ordered the whole Triumphe : He assigned , 1. Paralipom. 16. 1. Paralipom. 24. whiche of the Leuites , and in what order they shoulde serue before the Arke : He alloted Aarons Children , whiche were the Priestes , to walke eche man in his seueral office .

So likewise it is written of Kinge Salomon , touchinge the same : Kinge Salomon , accordinge to the decree , 2. Paralipom. 8. and order of his Father Dauid , appointed the Offices of the Priestes in their seueral Ministeries , and the Leuites , eche man in his Order : that they shoulde praise God , and minister before the Priestes . For so Dauid , the man of God , had commaunded . 2 Paralipom. 19. Likewise it is written of Kinge Iosaphat , He appointed , and ordered the Leuites , and Priestes .

Thus then did these godly Princes : and thus dooinge , they vsurped not the Bishoppes office , but onely did that , they lawfully mighte doo , and apperteined wholy vnto them selues .

Where yee saie , Dauid was a Prophete , and not onely a Kinge , as though he had donne these thinges by the vertue of his Prophesie , and not by the righte of his Princely Power , this poore shifte is very simple . For notwithstanding Kinge Dauid were a Prophete , yet Kinge Iosaphat , & other Princes , that did the like , were no Prophe●es : neither doo wee reade of any other Prophete , that euer attempted to doo the like : nor did Dauid these thinges , as a Prophete , but as a Kinge .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 8.

Kinge Salomon builte vnto the Lorde the Temple , which his Father Dauid had but pourposed in his minde to doo : 2. Paral. 6. and after the finishinge thereof , he made a godly Oration to the people , concerninge Religion , and the Seruice of God : 3. Reg. 8. He afterwarde displaced Abiathar the Prieste , and set Sadok in his place .

M. Hardinge .

Salomons buildinge of the Temple , 3. Reg. 2. and prayinge therein proueth no Supremacie ouer the Priestes in Spirituall thinges● His puttinge of Abiathar out of his dignitie and rome , * * Vntruthe . For what Superiour Bishoppes Authoritie vsed Salomon in the Deposition of Abiathar ? was like to that Queene Marie did to Cranmere . Kinge Salomon Judgeth in Spiritual cases . Whome shee might haue remoued for treason , as Salomon laide the like to Abiathar : yet she chose rather to burne him for Heresie . But this proueth ‡ ‡ Vntruthe manifeste . Reade the Answeare . onely an our warde execution of iustice , without any preiudice to the Substance of our question : Whiche is , whether a temporall Prince may determine the causes of Religion , or no.

The B. of Sarisburie .

The deposinge of Abiathar , yée saie , was onely the execution of outwarde Iustice : like to that , Queene Marie did to Doctoure Craumere the Archebishop of Canturburie . Wherein ye shewe your selfe to be mutche ouerséene . For these comparisons are in no wise like . Salomon , by his Princely Authoritie , lawfully deposed the Highe Prieste Abiathar : But Queene Marie deposed not , nor could she by your Canonnes lawfully depose the Archebishop of Canturburie : nor doo you thinke it in any case lawful , that a Bishop shoulde be deposed by a Prince . For , Deposition , yée saie , is a Spiritual po●nishement , and onely belongeth vnto a Bishop . And your Lawe saithe , Eius est Destituere , cuius est Instituere : He maie Depose a Prieste , that hath Authoritie to place a Prieste . Therefore these twoo Princes dooinges were not like . But , touchinge the Highe Prieste Abiathar , Kinge Salomon summoned him to appeare before him : Kinge Salomon sate in Iudgemente , and hearde the Accusations , wherewith he was charged : Kinge Salomon pronounced Sentence againste him : Kinge Salomon deposed him : Kinge Salomon appointed Sadoch to succeede him . It al this be not sufficient , ouer and bisides these thinges , 2. Parali. 5. 6. 7. 8. Kinge Salomon placed the Arke of God : Kinge Salomon Sanctified , and Halowed the Temple : Kinge Salomon offered vp burnte Sacrifice : Kinge Salomon directed , and ordered the Priestes in their seueral Offices : Kinge Salomon blessed the whole people . 2. Paralip. 8. And , as it is written , The Priestes , and Leuites leaftes nothinge vndonne , of al , that was commaunded them by the Kinge . If these cases be not Spiritual , telle vs then , what cases maie be allowed for Spiritual ? Thus the Godly Kinge Salomon thought it lawful for him , to deale , not onely in maters of Temporal Gouernemente , but also in Ecclesiastical , or Spiritual cases of Religion . Therefore , M. Hardinge , it is but a teie , that yee tel vs of the execution of outwarde Iustice .

Concerninge that moste Graue , and Godly , and Learned Father , the Archebishop of Canturburie , with whom yée did , what so euer your pleasure was , God graunte , his bloude be neuer required at your handes .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 9.

After this , when the Temple of God was in shameful wise polluted throughe the naughtinesse , 2. Paral. 29. and negligence of Priestes , Kinge Ezechias commaunded the same to be cleansed from the rubble and ●ilthe , the Priestes to light vp Candelles , to burne Incense , and to doo their Diuine Seruice , accordinge to the olde allowed custome . The same Kinge also commaunded the Brasen Serpente , 4. Reg. 18. whiche then the people wickedly woorshipped , to be taken downe , and beaten to pouder .

M. Hardinge .

How often shall I tell you , that this proueth nomore , but that good Kinges doo good deedes , mainteine true Religion , and pull downe the false , as the Constable of Fraunce burned the Pu●pites of the Huguenots in Paris ? But these factes proue not , that Kinges and Constables be iudges of Religion , whiche is good , Ezechias . and whiche is euill : 4. Reg. 20. 4. Reg. 9. whiche true , whiche false : For therein they * * Vntruthe . For the Priestes did nothinge , but againste their willes . Reade the Answeare . folow the iudgemente and aduise of Priestes , and Prophetes , who ●e about them , as ‡ ‡ This is farre from the pourpose . For Esaias , and Elizaeus neither were Priestes , no● had the e●ecution of Priestly Offices . Esaias was at hande with good Kinge Ezechias to direct his doinges : and so was Elizaeus with Kinge Iehu .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Kinge Ezechias , yée saie , and other Kinges folowed the aduise , and Iudgemente of the Priestes , and Prophetes . This tale , M. Hardinge , is not onely vnlikely , but also vntrue . For yée knowe , that Esaias , and Elizaeus , notwithstandinge thei were the Prophetes of God , yet were thei neither Priestes , nor Bishoppes , nor had any manner of Ordinarie Ministration in the Churche . The Bishoppes , and Priestes , of whome yée speake , had disordered , and wasted Goddes whole Religion . The Holy place of God was fulle of filthinesse : the Gates of the Temple were shut vp , 2. Paralip. 29. that no man might enter in : The people had turned awaie theire faces from the Tabernacle of the Lorde : There was no Incense : There was no Sacrifice . Al these thinges had happened through the negligence , and wickednesse of the Priestes . 2. Paralip. 30. In the Olde Latine Texte it is written thus : Sacerdotes , & Leuitae tandem Sanctificati obtulerunt Holocausta : The Priestes , and Leuites , at the laste , or with mutche adoo , were Sanctified , and offered vp Sacrifices . Vpon whiche place the Later Translation saithe thus : Sacerdotes , & Leuitae pudore suffusi , Sanctificauerunt se : The Priestes , and Leuites , euen for very shame , Sanctified them selues . So ready were thei , to calle vpon , and to further the Kinge in his godly pourpose . They helde backe , what they coulde , and yelded to nothinge , but with mutche adoo , and for very shame . They did nothinge , but by the Kinges Commaundemente : and made him a reckeninge of their dooinges .

How be it , perhaps yee wil discharge this whole mater with one ordinarie excuse , and tel vs , that al these were but Temporal Cases .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 10.

Kinge Iehosaphat ouerthrew , and vtterly made awaie the Hille Aultars , 1. Paralip. 17. & Groaues , whereby he sawe Goddes Honoure hindered , and the people holden backe with Priuate Superstition from the ordinarie Temple , whiche was at Ierusalem : whereto they should by ordre haue resorted yeerely from euery parte of the Realme .

M. Hardinge .

Yee put vs in minde to consider , how that your selues are those Priuate Hille Aulters , and darke Groaues . For ye be they , that stoppe the people from the common Temple of Christendome , the Catholike Churche : out of which is no Saluation , the heade whereof sitteth in Peters chaire at Rome . For settinge order bothe in matters of Common Weale , and others , Iehosaphat saide thus , concerninge Religion : Amarias Sacerdos & pontifex vester in ijs , 2. Par. 19. quae ad Deum pertinent , praesidebit : Amarias the Prieste and Highe Bishop for such matters as perteine to God , he shall be heade ouer you .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Al this whole mater , touchinge as wel Kinge Iehosophat , as also Amarias the Highe Prieste , is answeared in that is paste before .

The Apologie , Cap. 11. Diuision . 11.

Kinge Iosias with greate diligence put the Priestes , & Bishoppes in minde of their dueties : 4. Reg. 12. 4. Reg. 10. Kinge Iohas bridled the Riote , and Arrogancie of the Priestes : Iehu put to deathe the wicked Prophetes .

M. Hardinge .

The puttinge of Priestes , losias . Iohas . Iehu . and Bishoppes in minde of their dutie , is not a Supremacie in determininge Ecclesiasticall causes . And whereas you saie , that Kinge Ioas bridled the r●ot , and arrogancie of the Priestes , if it were so , it was well donne . But * * Ye mighte haue founde it , 4 Reg. Ca. 12. I finde not those woordes in the texte . Concerninge that Iehu did , it is a ‡ ‡ But he Iudged them , and condemned them for False Propheres . This was no mere Temporal office . mere temporall Office , to put false preachers , and Heretikes to death . Neither can it belonge to Priestes , onlesse they haue also ciuill iurisdiction . Muche lesse dothe that acte proue , that Kinges be Supreme heades ouer the Churche , and ought to be Iudges in controuersies and questions of Religion .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Concerninge the storie of Kinge Iohas , I reporte me to that is written of him in the Booke of Kinges . 4. Regum . 12. He sequestred the Oblations of the people , whiche the Priestes had bestowed lewdely , and wantonly vpon them selues , and , by his owne Authoritie , turned the same to the Reparations of the Temple . Of Kinge Iosias , 2. Paralipom. 35. it is written thus : Constituit Iosias Sacerdotes in officijs suis : Kinge Iosias appointed the Priestes to minister in theire seueral Offices . And againe , Mundauit Iudam , & Hierusalem ab Excelsis , & Lucis : Kinge Iosias cleansed , and ridde Iuda , and Hierusalem from their Hille Aultars , and their Groaues .

But yée wil saie , He did al thinges by the discretion of the Priestes , & Bishoppes . This thinge in deede is necessarie , while the Priestes , and Bishoppes be , learned , and godly . 4. Regum . 21. But Kinge Iosias did far otherwise : for he sent the Bishop him selfe vnto Olda the Prophetisse , to learne the discretion , and Iudgemente of a Wooman : and so was directed in maters of Highest Religion , by a Wooman , and not by a Prieste . These Examples be so manifeste , that one of your Felowes there is faine thus to excuse the mater , Dorman . Fol. 37. by ouer mutche Antiquitie . If we woulde in these daies , saithe he , vse in all pointes the Examples of the Olde Lawe , there woulde folowe an huge number of inconueniences . Dorman . Fol. 39. It is no good reason , to saie , that therefore our Kinges nowe a daies muste haue the like Authoritie . Thus saithe he , As though the Princes righte were now abated , and altered , as the Ceremonies of the Lawe : & were otherwise nowe , then it was before : Or , as if the Comminge of Christe into the worlde , and the Preachinge of the Gospel , had pourposely benne to represse and pulle downe the State of Kinges .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 1.

And , to rehearse no more Examples out of the Olde Lawe , let vs rather consider sithence the Birthe of christe , howe the churche hath benne gouerned in the time of the Gospel .

M. Hardinge .

If we consider the Office of a Kinge in it selfe , it is * * Euen so I●ppiter , or Baa●s Bishop , was as wel a Bishop , as the Bishop of Rome . one euery where , not onely amonge Christen Princes , but also amonge Heathen . * The definition of a Kinge , whiche agreeth to Iulius Cesar , or to Alexander the Greate , as they were Monarkes , and Princes , is one with the definition of a Kinge whiche agreeth to Henry the Eight , or to Charles the Fifthe . ‡ ‡ Neither can the Pope meddle more with Religion , then Annas , or Ca●phas . So that no more could Kinge Henry as Kinge , meddle with Religion , then Alexander , or Iulius Cesar . * His place is chiefe amonge the laie , euen when they are in the Churche at the Seruice of God : and * * Vntruthe ▪ For if the Bishop had offended , he was sub●ecte to the Prince , as wel within the Churche , a● without . without the Churche in all Temporall thinges and causes , he is ouer the Priestes themselues .

And because all these examples are taken out of the Olde Testamente , I will geeue thee a true resolution out of the same Booke , what auctoritie Priestes had , and what auctoritie Kinges had . Moses gaue this rule , Deut ▪ 17. concerninge the same matter . If ( saithe he ) thou perceiue an harde , and doubtfull iudgement to be with thee betweene bloude and bloude , cause and cause , Lepre and Lepre , and seest the woordes of the iudges within thy gates to varie , arise , and goe vp to the place , whiche thy Lorde God shall chose , The Prince a ludge in Ecclesiastical causes . and thou shalte come to the Priestes of the stocke of Leui , and to the Iudge that shall be for the time , and thou shalte demaunde of them : who shall shewe the truthe of iudgemente to thee .

But neither the Prieste by this place may medle with that iurisdiction , whiche belonged to the Temporall iudge , neither the Iudge with that whiche was spirituall and belonginge onely to the Prieste . 1. Paral. 26. For of such causes Azarias the Priest and Bishop saide to Kinge Ozias , It is not thy office , Ozias , to burne incense vnto our Lorde . It is the office of the Priestes : That is to saie , of the Sonnes of Aaron : Who are consecrated to doo suche Ministeries . But this the Kinge mighte doo euen in matters of Religion . * * The Prince is Executioner to the Prieste . When the High Priest had geuen sentence , he might see the execution thereof to be donne . But ‡ ‡ Vntruthe euident . Reade the Answeare . otherwise what so euer Kinge or Temporal iudge might not doo in his owne person , ‡ muche lesse mighte he iudge , whether an other did well therein , or no. And this concerninge the Olde Testament .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Office of a Kinge , yée saie , was no more in Kinge Henry the Eighth , or in Charles the Fifthe , then it was in the Heathen Princes , Iulius Caesar , or Alexander the Greate . And therefore , yée saie , a Christian Princes Office standeth onely in Maters Temporal : and for that cause yee so often calle him a Mere , Laie , Temporal Prince : as if he were in Authoritie not mutche better , then an Heathen Magistrate .

Euen so , M. Harding , is your Pope no more a Bishop , or perhaps , mutche lesse a Bishop , then Annas , and Caiphas : Neither is your Prieste more a Prieste , then the Prieste of Dagon , or Baal . The difference standeth , not in Office , but onely in Truthe . Yet neuerthelesse , yée knowe , that Heathen Princes had euermore a Soueraine Authoritie , not onely ouer theire Priestes , and Bishoppes , but also ouer al Cases of Religion . Aristotel . Foliticor . Li. 3. Socrates , Lib. 5. in Prooemio . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Aristotle saithe , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : The Kinge , that is Lorde , and Ruler of thinges , that perteine vnto the Goddes .

And therefore Socrates in his storie saithe , Imperatores vnà complexi sumus , &c. Wee haue also herein comprised the Emperours Liues , for that , sithence the Emperours were first Christened , the affaires of the Churche haue hanged of them , and the greatest Councelles bothe haue benne , and are keapte by theire aduise .

Yee saie , The Prince in doubteful Cases was commaunded to take Counsel of the Highest Prieste . This is true . But wil yée conclude hereof , that the Highest Prieste maie saie , & doo , what he listeth , without controlmente ? What if the Highe Prieste woulde answeare thus , as he answeared sommetime in déede , This Christe is a Samaritane , a deceiuer of the people , and hath a Diuel ? What if he teare his owne roabes for anger , and crie oute , He Blasphemeth : he is woorthy to die ? Yet muste the Emperoure néedes geue eare vnto him , and beleeue him without exception ? Certainely , in the Olde Lawe , if the Bishop either had benne negligente in his Office , or of malice , or ignorance had answeared vntruthe , he was euermore vnder the General controlmente of the Prince .

Within the Churche , yée saie , the Prince is inferioure to the Prieste : notwithstandinge , without the Churche he is in Temporal cases aboue the Prieste . Thus yee fetche your mater rounde , within , without , and rounde aboute , with al the Circumstances : as if Princes were as changeable , as your selfe : and woulde be other without , then they are within .

In déede , in that the Prieste dothe his Office , in that he either openeth Goddes Wil , or declareth his threates , or rebuketh sinne , or Excommunicateth , and cutteth of a deade member from the Body , so farre foorthe the Prince , be he neuer so mighty , is infe●iour vnto him . But in this respecte the Prince is infertoure , not onely to the Pope , or Bishop , but also to any other simple Prieste : And the Pope him selfe , The Prince is a ludge in Ecclesiastical causes . in this respecte , is inferioure to his Confessoure , be he neuer so poore a Prieste . So the Emperoure Constantinus was woonte to saie to the godly Bishoppes : Bee you Bishoppes within the Churche : and I wil be Bishop without . But if the Bishop had beene faulty , either in Negligence , or in Falsehedde , whether he had benne within the Churche , 9. Quaest. 3. Nemo , in Gloss . Abb. Euseb. De vita Constant . Orat. 4 De Maiorita & Obedient . vnam Sanctam . or abroade , he was alwaies to be controlled by the Prince .

Yee saie , When the Highe Prieste had geeuen Sentence , the Prince mighte see the Execution thereof to be donne . And thus yée make the Emperoure the Popes man , to put his Sentence in Execution . So Pope Bonifacius S. telleth you , Materialis Gladius exercendus est manu Regum , & Militum , sed ad nutum , & Patientiam Sacerdotis : The Temporal Swerde muste be drawen by the hande of Kinges , and Souldiers : but at the becke , and sufferance of the Prieste .

But , I beseehe you , at whose becke did Kinge Salomon depose Abiathar the Highe Prieste ? At whose becke did Iosias , and other godly Princes , of whome wée haue saide before , redresse the Religion of God , whiche they founde shamefully decaled ? At whose becke did they rebuke the carelesse negligence of the Priestes ? Verily , Heruaeus De Potestate Papae , Cap. 18. Augustin . Epist. 166. ad Donatistas . one of your owne Doctours saithe , In Veteri Lege Sacerdotes , qui Reges inungebant , indubitanter Regibus subdebantur : In the Olde Lawe , the Bishoppes , that a●ointed the Kinges , out of doubte were subiecte vnto the Kinges .

And S. Augustine saithe , Quando Imperatores Veritatem tenent , & ipsa Veritate contra Errotem iubent , quisquis illud contempserit , ipse sibi iudicium acquirit . Nam & inter homines poenas Iuit , & apud Deum frontem non habebit , qui hoc facere noluit , quod ei per Cor Regis ipsa Veritas iussit : When the Emperoure holdeth the Truthe , and by force of the same Truthe geeueth out Lawes , and Proclamations againste Erroure , who so euer despiseth the same , procureth iudgemente againste him selfe . For he shal be pounished before menne , and before God he shal haue no face , that refused to doo that thinge , that the Truthe it selfe , through the harte of the Prince , hathe commaunded him .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 2.

The Christian Emperours in the olde time , appointed the Councelles of the Bishoppes . Constantine called the Councel at Nice : Theodosius the firste , called the Councel at Constantinople : Theodosius the seconde , the councel at Ephesus : Martian , the Councel at Chalcedon .

M. Hardinge .

The callinge or summoninge of Councelles maie be donne * * A discrete Distinction : As if the Emperour receiued his Authoritie from the Pope . either by waie of auctoritie , whiche the caller himselfe hath : or by waie of auctoritie , whiche he taketh of an nother . If Constantine , the two Theodosians , and Marcian called the foure firste generall Councelles by their Auctoritie onely , then were they no generall Councelles . Neither coulde their decrees binde the whole worlde . For although they were greate Emperours , yet was not the whole Christian worlde vnder them . And therefore those Christian Bishoppes , who liued in Persia , in Ethiopia , in Scotland , in Scythia , or in any other lande not subiect to the Emperour , were neither bounde to come , nor bounde to obey the Lawes made by them , who were not their Superiours . But if it be farre from reason , that a generall Councell shoulde not binde all Bishoppes and all Christians , it is also farre reason , to saie , that Emperours called generall Councelles by their owne onely auctoritie . In deede they called them by the assent of the Bishop of Rome ‡ ‡ Vntruthe manifeste , as it shal appeare . Who beinge the generall Shepeherde of Christes stocke , and therefore also of all Bishoppes , might commaunde * * Al the Bishoppes througout the whole worlde are the Popes Sheepe . all his Sheepe to come togeather , excepte they were reasonably to be excused : and they were bounde to be heare his voice , and to obey his decree . So that , although ye proued the Emperours to haue summoned and called the foure firste Councels , yet were ye not able to proue , they did it ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the Emperoure maie summone Councels whether the Pope wil , or no. without the assent of the Bishoppes of Rome , which for the time sate in Peters chaire . And by the force of that assent the deede must take effecte . And this muche generally .

Now to prooue vnto you , that * * Vntruthe . For Syluester was dead longe before the summoninge of the Councel . S. Syluester assented to the callinge of the firste Councell at Nice , it is to be considered , that he onely hath auctoritie to ratifie , who hath auctoritie to commaunde , and to geue assent and strength from the beginninge . For none other difference is betweene commaundinge , assentinge , auctorizinge , and ratifying , but that assentinge is common to them al , commaundinge is a thinge that goeth before the facte , auctorizinge is the makinge of a thinge good by present agreeinge to it , whiles it is donne , ratifyinge is the allowinge of it , when it is donne . If then I shewe , both that the Pope did ratifie the callinge of the generall Councels , and auctorize them : I shewe muche more that he assented to the callinge of them . The auctorizinge is proued , by reason he sente his Legates to euery of them . As ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , vaine , and vnaduised . For neither was Hosius Syluesters Legate , nor was Syluester then aliue . S. Syluester sent Osius Cordubensis of the prouince of Spaine vnto Nice , with Victor and Vincentius , Pr●estes of the Citie of Rome . Of which the last twoo , beinge them selues no Bishops , yet for that they were Legates of the chiefe Bishop , did in * * Vntruthe impudente . For they had the fourthe place in the Councel , and subscribed after Eustathius . the firste place put vnto the decrees of that councell their consent and names , writinge after thus sorte : Pro venerabili vito Papa & Episcopo nostro Syluestro subscripsimus : We haue subscribed for the reuerent man our Pope and Bishop Syluester . And at the very ‡ ‡ Vntruth . Onlesse a dead man maie Summone Councelles . same time , that the generall councell was kepte at Nice , S. Syluester called an other Councell in Rome , at the whiche two hundred seuenty and fiue Bishops were assembled . And it is expressely written in the same Councell , Syluester collegit vniuersam Synodum Episcoporum cum consilio Augusti , vel matris eius : Syluester gathered together the whole Synode of the Bishoppes with the Counsell of the * * By the Counsel of the Emperoure , or of his Mother : wisely : He woteth not whether . And yet the Emperours Mother was dead before : Sozom. Lib. 2. Ca. 2. & . 3. Emperour or * his mother . Why his counsell was needeful , it appereth there . Because the Emperoure bare the charges of their diete , and carriage . So that his counsell was necessary , not chiefely for Religion , but rather for supportation of the charges of so greate a iourney . For then neither was the Bishop of Rome , nor other Bishoppes endewed with so large possessions , as they were afterwarde .

Now to retourne to the Councell of Nice . The Emperour was in deede the cause of their comming togeather , aswel for that him selfe persuaded that meane of concorde , as also for that liberally , he defraied the charges . Yet called he not the Bishoppes of his owne head . And that these men might haue seene in the Ecclesiasticall Historie , Lib. 10. ca. 1. Marke , ex sacerdotum sententia . where Rufinus writeth : Tum ille ex Sacerdotum sententia apud vrbem Nicaeam Episcopale concilium conuocat : Then the Emperour calleth together a Councell of Bishoppes accordinge to the determination of the Priestes . He did it accordinge as it seemed ‡ ‡ Ful Clerkely proued . For Ruffinus saithe , The Emperoure herein folowed the aduise of Alexander the Bishop of Alexandria , &c. But of the Pope there is no mention . good to the Bishoppes . ‡ And shall we thinke the Bishop of Rome was none of them that consented to the callinge ? ‡ Ye as verely he was the chiefest of al. How can it otherwise seeme ? For when all the decrees were made , In summ . Nice . Concil. Placuit vt haec omnia mitterentur ad Episcopum vrbis Romae Syluestrum : It was thought good , that all those actes , and decrees should be sente to * * Vntruthe sondly forged . For Syluester was dead longe before . Syluester Bishop of the Cittie of Rome . If he were the last , that had the vewe and confirminge of all thinges , there is no doubte , but he had a voice and great auctoritie in callinge the Councell .

What other is that , which Socrates in his Ecclesiasticall Historie witnesseth , sayinge , Cum vtique regula Ecclesiastica iubeat , non oportere ‡ ‡ Vntruth , standinge in plaine corruption of the woordes . See the Answear . praeter sententiam Romani Pontisicis ‡ concilia celebrari : Whereas the Ecclesiasticall rule commaundeth , ‡ that no councels ought to be kepte besides the determinate consente of the Bishop of Rome ? We knowe ( saithe Athanasius , and the Bishoppes of Aegypte assembled in Councell at Alexandria ) that in the greate councell of Nice of 318 Bishoppes , Hist. trip . li. 4. ca. 9. Epistola Aegyptior . pontificum . Ruf. Li. 10. cap. a. Hist. trip . Li. 7. ca. 12. it was with one accorde by all confirmed there , that without the determination of the Bishop of Rome , neither councels should be kept , nor Bishoppes condemned . I omitte here as a thinge well knowen , how Constantine the Emperour refused in expresse woordes , to be iudge ouer Bishoppes , saying , that God had geuen them power to iudge of him : much lesse did he arrogate to him selfe onely and chiefly auctoritie to summon councels , or to iudge Bishoply affaires . As for me ( saithe Valentinian the Emperour ) in asmuch as I am but one of the people , it is not lawful to search suche matters : ( he speaketh of the Heretikes Doctrines ) but let the Priestes , to whome this charge belongeth , be gathered together within them selues , where they will , &c.

Concerninge the seconde Councell , whiche was the firste of those that were kept at Constantinople , it may be , that Theodosius called it , as Constantine called the firste at Nice . But what auctoritie Damasus bare in the same , it appeareth partely by that he had his * * So had sundrie other Bishoppes . Legates there , partly also by that Photius Patriarke of Constantinople writeth in his Epistle to Michael Prince of Bulgaria . Where hauinge declared the comminge together of the Patriarkes of Alexandria , and Ierusalem , he saithe thus : Photius in Lib. de concilijs . Quibus haud mult● post & Damasus Episcopus Romae eadem confirmans , atque idem sentiens accessit . To whiche ( Patriarkes of Alexandria and Ierusalem ) not longe after , Damasus the Bishop of Rome ioyned him selfe , confirminge ‡ ‡ Other Bishops likewise gaue their Consentes , and Confirmed &c. Yet had thei no Authoritie to Summone Councelles . and determininge the same matter . This much saithe Photius of the seconde Councell , the confirmation whereof he dothe attribute , not to Theodosius the Emperoure , but to Damasus the Pope .

But what did Theodosius then ? ( will some man saie ) . Did he nothinge ? yeas verely he did very muche , as in the saide Epistle Phot●us recordeth . Then did greate Theodosius ( saithe he ) in deede woorthy of great praise rule the Empire , who was him selfe also a defender , and a mainteiner of Godlinesse . Beholde what the Emperours parte was , not to sitte in iudgement of matters of Religion , and * * Vntruthe manifeste . For Theodosius the Emperoure expressely determined , what shoulde be holden for Christian Faithe . determine , whiche was the true Faithe , but to defende it , and mainteine it . And that thou maist see , reader , plainely , what Theodosius thought of Religion , whome these Defenders woulde make a iudge in causes of Religion : Cap. 7. I aduise thee to reade the ninth Booke of the Tripartite Historie , where appeare many greate argumentes of his owne Faithe : Whiche he publisheth to the worlde from Thessalonica , in a publike lawe , to be suche , as Peter had taught the Romaines , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , guilefully enclosed . For Theodosius willed his Subiectes , to folowe as wel the ●aithe of sundrie other Bishoppes , as the Popes . and as Damasus who succeded Peter , taught at that daie , requiringe all his subiectes to beleue the same . He required not them to folow his owne Priuate Faithe , Ruf. Lib. 11. Cap. 3. but Peters Faith , and the Popes Faithe . And whereas there were two Bishoppes of Alexandria at that time , the one , whose name was Peter , holdinge with the Bishop of Rome , the other named Lucius , not so : Theodosius commaunded his subiectes to beleue , as Peter did , who folowed the firste Peter , and Damasus the Bishop of Rome .

Touchinge the thirde generall Councell , it was kepte in deede vnder Theodosius the yonger at Ephesus . But he was not supreme head there . Yea rather who knoweth not , that Cyrillus being him selfe Patriarke of Alexandria , yet was president at Ephesus , bearinge the steede , and person of Pope Celestine ? If Cyrill was in steede of the Bishop of Rome there president , * * A fonde folie . For the Bishop of Rome had euermore the Firste Place in Councelles : Yet was he not therefore the Heade of the Churche . who maie doubt , but that he was Supreme Head of the Churche , in whose name the President sate ? Dothe the President of the Queenes Maiesties Counsell vse to sitte at her counsell in the name of any other inferiour person ? If Theodosius were supreme and chiefe , why sate not Cyrill in his name , as president ? But seinge that Photius writeth , Li. 14. c. 34. and Nicephorus also , that Cyrill Archebishop of Alexandria sate in the steede of Celestine Pope of Rome ouer that Councel kepte at Ephesus , vndoubtedly it can not be denied , but that Celestine was supreme head , as well of the Churche , as of the Generall Councell .

It is not therefore onely to be considered , that Theodosius sente abroade his messengers to summon the Fathers to the Generall Councell , but also it is to be considered , ‡ ‡ No doubte by the Authoritie of the Pope . And so was the Emperoure onely the Popes man . by whose auctoritie it was donne . If in our time it had pleased the Emperoure Ferdinande of Famouse Memorie to haue sente his Messengers to the Kinges and Princes of Spaine , Fraunce , Englande , Hungarie , Bemelande , Pole , and to the Estates , and Dukes of Italie , and Germanie , to summon them to the Councell , whiche the Pope thought good to indict at Trente : I thinke verely the Pope woulde haue thanked the Emperoure for it , and him selfe should haue saued so muche charges , as men of experience know , suche an enterprise to require . But now , sith the Pope hath of his owne sufficient to beare the charges of suche affaires , he asketh not any more of the Emperoure suche expenses , as in olde time to that necessarie pourpose by the Emperours were allowed .

Laste of all Martian ( saie you ) called the fourthe Generall Councell at Chalcedon . We answeare . He called it not in suche sorte as ye meane , to witte , as supreme Head and ruler thereof , but as one hable to sende messengers for the Bishoppes about the worlde , and to susteine the charges , also willinge to see peace , and concorde in the Churche of God . Who liste to reade the Epistles of Pope Leo to Pul●●eria the Emperesse , to Martian himselfe , to Theodosius , to Flauianus Archebishop of Constan●●nople , to the Synode firste assembled at Ephesus , afterwarde for certaine causes at Chalcedon : in the same Epistles he may see bothe the cause of the councell , and what * * Vntruthe . For the Councel was summoned to Chalcedon , quite contrarie to the Popes wil . Reade the Answeare . conference was had thereof with the saide Leo Bishop of Rome , who sente firste to Ephesus , Iulianus a Bishop , Renatus a Prieste , and Hilarius a Deacon : The Summoninge of Councelles . and afterwarde to Chalcedon , Paschasinus , and Lucentius Bishoppes , and Bonifacius a Prieste , to represente hius personne . In one of the saide Epistles written to the Seconde Synode at Ephesus , Leo Epist. 15. Leo saithe thus : Religiosissima Clementissimi principis Fides &c. The moste religious Faithe of our moste element Prince knowinge it to perteine chiefely to his re●me , if within the Catholike Churche no branche of errour springe , hath deferred this reuerence to Gods ordinaunces , as to vse the auctoritie of the see Apostolike , to achieue the effect of a Holy purpose . as though he were desirous by the moste blessed Peter himselfe , that to be declared , whiche in his confession was praised . By whiche woordes It is plaine , that in matters of Religion the Emperoure proceeded not vpon his owne Head , but * * Vntruthe most manifeste : Reade the Answeare : was directed by the See of Peter . What shal I saie more ?

If the Emperoure first Christened the Pope , let the Emperour be superiour in thinges to Godward . But if the Pope Christened the Emperour , ( as ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he was Christened by Eusebius the Bishop of Nicomedia , longe after that Syluester was dead . Syluester did Constantine ) let the spirituall Father in that degree of rule be aboue the spirituall Childe .

The B. of Sarisburie .

No man coulde vtter so many Vntruthes togeather , with sutche assiance , without somme cunninge . Firste , M. Hardinge , yée beare vs in hande , that the Emperours of the Worlde , in those daies , summoned Councelles , not by their owne Authoritie , but by the Authoritie , & Warrante of the Pope : As if the Popes Authoritie at that time , had benne many degrees aboue the Emperoure . Notwithstandinge , Pope Pius . 2. Aeneas Syluius in Epist. as you knowe , saithe thus , Ante Nicenam Synodum vnusquisque sibi vixit : & paruus respectus ad Romanam Ecclesiam habebatur : Before the Councel of Nice , eche Bishop liued seuerally to him selfe : and little regarde was there then had to the Churche of Rome . Inter ●pistolas Augustin . Epis. 96. Pope Innocentius complaineth , that he had not Authoritie sufficient , to force Pelagius , beinge but one man , to comme before him : mutche lesse had he Authoritie sufficient , to commaunde , & calle the whole worlde . Pope Leo bothe was an humble suiter himselfe vnto the Emperoure Martianus , that it would please his Maiestie to commaunde a Councel , and also entreated other Bishoppes to promote the cause . Thus he writeth , Humiliter , ac sapienter exposcite , Leo ad Clerum & pleb●m Constan . Epist. 23. vt Pet●tiom nostrae , qua Plenariam indici Synodum postulamus , Clementissimus Imperator dignetur annuere : Make suite with discrete , and humble Praier , that our moste Gracious Emperoure woulde vouchesaue to graunte oure requeste , in that wee haue desired a General Councel . It is not likely , that Pope Leo woulde thus haue written , if his owne Authoritie had benne sufficiente .

Naie , it is the more vnlikely , that the Emperoure shoulde herein at any time vse the Authoritie of the Pope , for that the Pope him selfe was neuer hable to summone Bishoppes , as hereafter it shal appeare , but onely by the Authoritie of the Emperoure . Theodoret. Li. 5. Cap. 9 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Eusebius . Lib. 10 Cap. 5. Pope , Damasus commaunded the Bishoppes of the Easte , to comme to Rome : How be it , not in his owne name , for that had benne no warrante , but by the Emperours special letters . Eusebius saith thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Exemplar Regiarum Literarum , quibus iubet Romae Episcoporum Concilium celebrari : This is a Copie of the Emperours Write , whereby he commaunded a Councel to be keapte In Rome . As for the Pope , notwithstandinge al his Vniuersal Power , he was commaunded by the Emperours Summone , to be presente at Councelles , as wel as others .

In the Councel of Chalcedon it is written thus : Eodem tenore à Pijssimis , & Christianissimis Imperatoribus , Concil. Chalcedonen. Actio●● . Pag. 748. Sanctissimus noster Papa , Romanae Ecclesiae praepositus Leo , vocatus est : By order of the same Write , Oure moste Holy Pope Leo , ruler of the Churche of Rome , was called to the Councel by the moste Godly , and moste Christian Emperours .

Sozomenus saithe , The Summoninge of Councelles . Constantinus scripsit ad omnes Praesides Ecclesiarum , vt ad diem adessent : Ad Episcopos Apostolicarum Sedium : Ad Macarium Hierosoly mitanum : ad Iulium Romanum , &c. The Emperoure Constantinus sente out his Letters vnto al the Rulers of the Churches , 〈◊〉 . Lib. 1. Cap 17. Theodoret. Lia. Cap. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . that they should meete al at Nice vpon a da●e : vnto the Bishoppes of the Apostolike Sees : vnto Macarius the Bishop of Hierusalem : and vnto Iulius the Bishop of Rome &c. But sulius excused his absence because of his age . Otherwise of Obedience , and Dewtie towardes the Emperoure , he was as mutche bounde , to haue made his appearance there , as the reste of his Brethren .

Yee saie , If the Emperoure shoulde haue summoned the Councel by his owne Authoritie , then the Bishoppes of Persia , and Scotlande , whiche Countries were not then vnder the Obedience of the Romaine Empiere , woulde not haue appeared vpon the Summone , and so had it benne no General Councel . This cauil wanteth bothe truthe , and sauoure . For proufe whereof , I wil bringe foorthe your selfe , M. Hardinge , to reprooue your selfe . Yée should not so soone haue foregotten your owne Decree , specially conceiued , and published in this selfe same Booke . Thus you saie : these be your owne woordes : A Councel is not accoumpted General , M. Hardinge . 〈◊〉 32. ● . bicause Bishoppes of al Countries vnder Heauen be assembled : but bicause many be assembled , and al be lawfully called . Otherwise your Late Chapter of Tridente , with your woorthy number of Fourtie Prelates , whereof certaine were onely Maie Bishoppes , otherwise by you called Nullatenses , coulde neuer haue benne a General Councel .

Certainely it cannot appeare , that there was any Bishop , either of Scotlande , or of Englande , then called Britaine , at any of the firste foure Councelles , either at Nice , or at Ephesus , or at Constantinople , or at Chalcedon . Yet are these Councelles neuerthelesse called General .

Touchinge the reste , the Emperoure was then the onely Monarke of the worlde : Chrysost. Ad Popul . An●●othe . Homi. 2. and , as Chrysostome calleth him , Summitas , & Caput omnium super terram hominum : The Toppe , and Heade of al menne in the worlde . No doubte , who so euer woulde then haue refused the Emperours Summone , mutche more woulde he haue refused the Summone of the Pope .

To quali●●e the mater , yée sate , the Emperoure did these thinges , although not by the Popes warrante , yet , at th● leaste , by the Popes Consente , and neuer otherwise . Here likewise is an other Vntruthe . For the Emperoure commaunded Councelles , bothe when he woulde , and whither he would , whether the Pope woulde , or no , many times without any manner of regarde had to his pleasure . Pope Leo wrote thus vnto the Emperoure Theodosius , Omnes nostrae Ecclesiae , ●eo ad 〈◊〉 seon , ●pis . 24. Omnes Mansue●udini Vestrae cum gemitibus , & Lachrymis supplicant Sacerd●●es , vt Generalem Synodum iubeatis intra Italiam celebrari : Al our Churches , and al our Priestes moste humbly beseeche your Maiestie with sobbes , and teares , that yee wil commaunde a General Councel to be holden within Italie . In like sorte he caused the Cleregie of ●onstantinople , to be su●ters vnto his Maiestie for the same : yet neuerthelesse the Emperoure continewed stil in his pourpose : and , contrarie to the Popes humble petition , kepte the Councel , not in Italie , but at Chalcedon : where also , as it is saide before , Pope Leo him selfe was summoned to appeare by the Emperours Commaundemente , with other Bishoppes .

Of sutche Authoritie was the Popes consente in Summoninge of Councelles . He humbly craued it vpon his knees , with sighes , and teares : and coulde not geate it . Hereof Aeneas Syluius , whiche afterwarde was Pope Pius . 2 , saithe thus , 〈◊〉 Syluiu● . De ●●on●●l . Basilien . Lib. 1. Ex hisce Authoritatibus mirum in modum se putant armatos , qui Concilia negant sieri posse sine consensu Papae . Quorum sententia , si , vt ipsi volunt , inuiolata persistat , ruinam secum Ecclesiae trahit . Quid enim remedij erit , The Summoninge of councelles . si criminosus papa perturbet Ecclesiam : si animas perdat : si animas peruertat malo exemplo populos : si denique contraria Fidei praedicet , Haereticisque Dogmatibus imbuat subditos ? Sinemúsne cum ipso cuncta ruere ? At ego , dum veteres lego Historias , dum Actus perspicio Apostolorum , hunc equidem morem non inuenlo , vt Soli Papae Concilia conuocauerint : Nec pòst , tempore Constantini Magni , & aliorum Augustorum , ad Congreganda concilia quaesitus est magnoperè Romani consensus Papae : By these Authorities they thinke them selues armed , that saie , no Councel maie be keapte without the consente of the Pope . Whose Iudgemente , if it should stande , as they woulde haue it , woulde drawe with it the decaie , and ruine of the Churche . For what remedie were there then , if the Pope him selfe were vitious , destroied Soules , ouerthrewe the people with euil examples , taught Doctrine contrarie to the Faithe , and filled his Subiectes ful of Heresies ? Shoulde we suffer al to goe to the Diuel ? Verily , when I reade the Olde stories , and consider the Actes of the Apostles , I finde no sutche order in those daies , that onely the Pope should Summone Councelles . And afterwarde , in the time of Coustantine the Greate , and of other Emperours , when Councelles shoulde be called , there was no greate accoumpte made of the Popes consente . Cusanus , De Concordia Cathosica , Lib. 3. Ca. 15. Cardinal Cusanus saith , Negligente , aut Contradicente papa , Imperator potest praeceptiuè Synodos indicere , ad prouidendum fluctuanti Ecclesiae : If the Pope be negligente , or , if he saie naie , the Emperoure , to staie the w●ueringe state of the Churche , maie commaunde Councelles by his owne Authoritie . Thus the Emperoure Sigismunde called a Councel at constance : notwithstandinge it stoode Pope Iohn mutche vpon , neuer to yáelde his consente vnto it . For in the same Councel he was depriued , and of a Pope was made a Cardinal .

Yee saie , the Pope had Authoritie to Confirme Councelles , Ergo , Mutche more he had Authoritie to calle Councelles . And here yée tel vs a very solemne tale , what is Commaundinge : what is Assentinge : what is Authorizinge ; what is Ratifieinge : as if it had benne somewhat to the pourpose . But if your reason holde , then must General Councelles haue many Callers . For as I shal hereafter sufficiently prooue , not onely the Pope , or the other principal Patriarkes , but also al other Bishoppes , that were presente , yea Emperours , Kinges , Lieutenantes , & Counsellers had Authoritie to Confirme Councelles . Sozomen . Lib. 6. Cap. 23. Sozomenus saith , Nec Romanus , nec Vicentinus , nec alij confirmarunt : This Councel was Confirmed , neither by the Bishop of Rome , nor by the Bishop of Vicentia , nor by the reste of the Bishoppes . And the Emperoure Martianus saith , Concil. Chalcedon . Actio . 3. Pag. 804. Sacrosancto nostrae serenitatis Edicto venerandam Synodum Confirmamus : Wee Confirme the Reuerende Councel by the Holy Edicte of oure Maiestie . Yee saie , Pope Syluester sente that Famous Learned Father Hosius , the Bishop of Corduba , to the Councel of Nice , to represente his personne . This maie wel passe emonge the reste of your Truthes . For neither was Hosius there in the Popes behalfe , but in his owne : nor was Pope Syluester then aliue , or hable to sende him , duringe the whole time of the Nicene Councel : notwithsstandinge any thinge , that your Fabulare , Peter Crabbe , hath saide to the contrarie . As for Hosius , the Bishop of Corduba , of what Authoritie , and estimation he was in al Ecclesiastical Assemblies , it maie appeare by these woordes of Athanasius : In qua Synodo Dux ille , Athanasi . Apologia . 2. & Antesignanus non fuit ? Quae Ecclesia istius Praesidentiae non pulcherrima monumenta retinet ? In what Councel hath not Hosius benne Chiefe , and Presidente ? What Churche is without somme notable remembrance of his gouernmente ? Certainely , M. Hardinge , it seemeth , he was a greate deale too good , to be sente so farre in a deade mannes errante .

Notwithstandinge , Sozomen . Lib. 1. Cap. 17. Iulius , beinge then Bishop of Rome , for that he was vnhable to trauaile , bicause of his age , sente thither twoo Priestes . Vitus , and Vincentius , to supplie his roume . Thus he did , not of pride , the better by his absence to maineteine a state , but onely for that he was forced of necessitie so to doo . For if he had benne hable to trauaile so farre , The Summoninge of councelles . he had benne forced to goe thither him selfe . Therefore Pope Agatho afterwarde thus excused his Absence vnto the Emperoure : Christianissimi Domini Filij , secundum Pijssimam Iussionem Mansuetudinis vestrae , Concil. Constantinopolitan . Actio . 4. Ad Heraclium . & Tiberium Imper. Pag. 288. Athanasi . ad Antiochen . to . 2. pro Obedientia , quam debuimus , praesentes confamulos nostros misimus : My moste Christian Lordes , and Children , accordinge to the moste godly Commaundement of your Maiesties , and accordinge to the Obedience , that wee owe of dewtie , we haue sente these presente oure Felowe Seruantes .

Other Bishoppes in like cases of age , or infirmitie , did the like . For example , Lucifer , the Bishop of Sardinia , sente Herennius , and Agapetus : and Paulinus sente Maximus , and Calemerus to the Councel of Nice , to be in their stéedes .

Yee saie , Vitus , and Vincentius , for that they were the Popes Legates , had therefore the Firste place in Subscription emonge the Bishoppes . Here is an other greate Vntruthe . Theodoret , Lib. 1. Cap. 7. For Theoderetus saithe , the Firste , and Chiefe of al that companie , bothe in place , & in speache , was , not Vitus , or Vincentius , the Popes Legates , but Eustathius the Patriarke of Antioche .

Touchinge these twoo the Popes Legates , Sozomen . Lib. 1. Cap. 17. Athanasi . Apologia 2. Sozomenus placeth them onely in the Fourthe roume : Athanasius saithe , Subscripserunt , Hosius ab Hispania , Iulius Romanus per Archidamum , & Philoxenum Presbyteros : They Subscribed their names to the Councel , Hosius that came out of Spaine , and Iulius the Bishop of Rome , by Archidamus , and Philoxenus Priestes , that were his Legates : By whiche woordes he alloweth the Bishop of Romes Legates the Seconde place in Subscription : but not the Firste . And thus , yee see , Hosius the Bishop of Corduba subscribeth before Iulius the Bishop of Rome .

In the Councel of Aphrica , Concil. Aphric . Ca. 100. Concil. Chalcedon . Actio . 1. Sancta . Philippus , and Asellius the Popes Legates , had the Laste Place in Subscription after al others . In the Councel of Chalcedon , Philippus , one of the Popes Legates , had a hundred , & seuen and fiftie others to Subscribe before him .

These Fathers , I trowe , woulde not haue benne so vnmannerly in their dealinge , if thei had taken the Pope for the Heade of the whole Vniuersal Churche , Sozom. li 1. ca. 17 Athanas Apologia . 2. Theodoret. Lib. 1. Cap. 7. Micephor . Lib. Cap. 14. to haue placed his Legate behinde so many . Further , yee saie , At the very same time , that the General Councel was keapte at Nice , S. Syluester called an other Councel in Rome . This , I trowe , M. Hardinge , is an other Vntruthe : Onlesse yee haue power to raise vp deade menne , to keepe Councelles , For Syluester was dead longe before .

Sozomenus saith , Vitus , & Vincentius were sente to Nice , not by Pope Syluester , who then was deade , but by Pope Iulius , that was the seconde after him . The like maie easily appeare by Athanasius , Tabula Hermanni Contracti : Syluester Papa motitur . Marcus Papa Vixit octo Menses . Iulius Papa . Hoc tempore Constant●nus indixit Nice ●um Concilium . Anno Domi. 324. Theodoretus , Nicephorus , and others . Therefore , M. Hardinge , you muste néedes diuise twoo Councelles of Nice aboute one time : two Syluesters Popes : twoo Writers of this one storie , the one true , the other false . Otherwise , this fraile stuffe wil neuer holde . Yee are ouer easy to credite Fables .

The Councel , that yee imagine , was holden in Rome by Pope Syluester , is nothinge els but a heape of childishe Vanitises . The Holy discrete Learned Fathers saie there , Nemo Presbyterorum Chrisma conficiat : quoniam Christus à Chrismate vocatur : Praesul Summus non iudicabitur à quoquam : Quoniam scriptum est , Non est Discipulus supra Magistrum . Neque ab Augusto , neque ab omni Clero , neque à Regibus , neque ab omni Populo Iudex iudicabitur : Co●c . Rom. Ca. 5. Ca. 3. Ca. 12. No Prieste maie make , or halowe the Chrisme : For Christe of Chrisme hath his name . The Higheste Prelate ( that is , the Pope ) more be iudged of noman : For it is written , The Scholar is not aboue his Maister . The Iudge ( that is , the pope ) shal not be iudged , neither by the Emperoure , nor by al the Cleregie , nor by Kinges , and Princes , nor by the whole people . Sutche and other like good stuffe haue you in your Councel of Rome .

Notwithstandinge , The Summoninge of Councelles . of what credite so euer this Councel were , yet , M. Hardinge , it vtterly ouerthroweth your whole pourpose . For , if euer there were any sutche Councel summoned in Rome , it was summoned , not by Syluester the deade Pope , but by the Authoritie of the Emperour y● them was aliue . So Eusebius writeth of the Councel of Rome , holden in the time of Pope Meltiades , as it is said before : Euseb. Li. 10. ca. 5. Exemplar Regiarum Literarum , &c. Here is a Copie of the Emperoures Write , whereby he hath commaunded a Councel of Bishoppes to be keapte at Rome .

Likewise the Bishoppes assembled in the Councel of Constantinople , wrote vnto the Bishoppes in the Councel of Rome : Theodoretus , li. 5 Cap. 9. Cùm indixissetis , &c. After yee had called a Councel to Rome , yée warned vs also to comme thither , as the Members of your owne Body , by the moste godly Emperours Write .

By these it appeareth , if there were any sutche Councel called to Rome , it was called by the Emperoure , and not by the Pope .

Yée saie , the Emperoure in sutche affaires was aduised euermore by the Bishoppes . This is not vnlikely , and therefore easily maie be graunted . Notwithstanding , for ought , that maie appeare , he was more aduised oftentimes by somme other Bishoppes , then by the Pope , as it shal appeare . Eusebius , touchinge the Emperoure Constantinus , writeth thus : Quasi Communis quidam Episcopus à Deo constitutus , Euseb. Devita Constantini , Oratione . 1. Ruffin . li. 1. ca. 1. Ministrorum Dei Synodos conuocauit : As if he had benne one Common Bishop appointed by God , he appointed Councelles of Bishoppes to assemble togeather . Ruffinus saithe , The Emperoure was aduised hereto by Alexander , the Bishop of Alexandria , and by other Bishoppes , and Priestes of Egypte . Here is no mention of the Pope . In the like cases of Ecclesiastical Affaires , Athanasius was an earnest suiter vnto the Emperoure Constantius : Dioscorus , vnto Theodosius : and so others , vnto other .

But of the Popes omnipotente consente , without which , yée telle vs , no Emperoure maie summone a Councel , there is noman that maketh mention .

Yee saie , There ought no Councel to be keapte without the determinate consente of the Bishop of Rome . This also is an other of your Vntruthes , standing in the manifeste corruption of the wordes of Socrates : as in my Former Replie I haue declared more at large . Arti. 4. Diui. 26 Socrat li. ● ca. 17 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cassiodor . Lib. 4. Cap. 19. Regula Iuris , Quod omnes tangit , ab omnibus debet approbari . The woordes of Socrates be these , Non licet scribere Ecclesiastica Decreta praeter sententiam Episcopi Romani : It is prouided , that Ecclesiastical Lawes be not made without the consente of the Bishop of Rome : For that the Bishop of Rome was one of the Foure Greate Patriarkes , whoes assentes in al General Councelles were thought necessarie . But Socrates meaneth sutche Ecclesiastical Lawes , as perteine to the whole Churche of God . For this is a Rule agréeable to reason , That toucheth al , muste be allowed by al.

Nowe , whereas yée haue exchanged the Alloweinge of Canons , into the Summoninge , or Callinge of Councelles , it maie please you to remember , that Alloweinge of Canons was common to al the Members of the Councel , and specially to the Foure Principal Patriarkes , as it is saide before : But the Authoritie of Callinge Councelles belonged onely to the Emperoure .

That yée allege of Athanasius , is a vaine , and a shamelesse Forgerie : as I haue otherwhere declared more at large . Sutche Religion , sutche Doctours . Sutche Folie is woorthy no other answeare .

Valentinian the Emperoure , Sozom. Li. 6. ca. 7 yee saie , accoumpted him selfe as one of the people : and therefore saide , It was not lawful for him , to Examine maters of Religion . Thus he said , either of humilitie , or els for wante of time . His foretne Enimies , his Warres , and his Ciuile Cares had filled his heade with other thoughtes . Nicephorus imagineth him thus to saie , Nicephor . Lib. 1● Cap 3. Mihi negotijs occupatio , & Reipublicae curis distento , res huiusmodi inquirere non est facile : For me , beinge thus occupied with Businesse , and Publique Cares , The Summoninge of Councelles . it is not easy to enquire of sutche maters . Otherwise , that Ecclesiastical Causes bée within the Princes Charge , I doubte not , but hereafter it shal wel appeare . Kinge Odoacer saide vnto Pope Symmachus , and vnto the Cleregie of Rome , Concil. Roman. 3 Cap. 2. as it is alleged once before : Miramur , quicquam tenratum fuisse sine nobis . Nam , viuente nostro Presbytero , sine nobis nihil tentari oportuit : Wee marueile , that any thing was attempted without vs : For without vs nothing should haue benne donne , so longe as Our prieste ( he meaneth the Pope ) was aliue .

After this yée fille the house ful with Patriarkes of Constantinople , Patriarkes of Alexandria , Patriarkes of Hierusalem , Princes of Bulgaria , and with other like great , & stately persons . The Conclusion hereof is this , That Pope Damasus gaue his consente to the Councel of Constantinople . Al this , M. Hardinge , yée might soone haue obteined with more fauoure , and lesse a doo . Howe be it , yee maie not hereof wel reason thus , The Pope consented vnto the Councel : Ergo , The Pope had Authoritie to calle the Councel : lest children woonder at your Logique .

In the meane while , yée saie , the Emperoure Theodosius ruled the Empiere : whereby yée geue vs to vnderstande , that he had no charge ouer the Churche . And thus yée continewe stil to enriche your self , & to heape your Reader with Vntruthes .

Certainely the Bishoppes in the Councel of Constantinople wrote thus in humble wise vnto the same Emperoure Theodosius : Obsecramus Clementiam tuam , Post Conci . Ephesinum Primum . vt , quemadmodum Literis honorasti Ecclesiam , quibus nos Conuocasti , ita finalem Conclusionem nostrorum Decretorum corroboves sententia tua , & Sigillo : Wee beseeche your Maiestie , that , as ye haue honoured the Churche by your Letters , wherewith yee haue called vs togeather , so it maie please you , to Confirme the final Conclusion of our Decrees with your Sentence , and with your Seale .

Further , as it appeareth by your owne Allegation , the same Emperoure Theodosius tooke vpon him , The Emperoure limiteth the Catholique Faithe . to bounde , and to limite the Catholique Faith , & that euen in the Body of his Ciuile Lawes : whiche thing neither could he haue donne without Iudgemente : nor woulde he haue donne without Authoritie . But , if yée ineane , that by this Determination of the Emperoure Theodosius , that Faithe onely shoulde be taken for Catholique , that was then professed by Pope Damasus , and should afterwarde be professed by others succeding in Peters Chaire , then haue yée secretely conueighed vs in an other Vntruthe . The place it selfe wil soone reproue you . Cod. Theodosian . Lib. 16. Titu de Fide Catholic . Cunctos Populos The Emperours woordes be these , Cunctos populos in tali volumus Religione versari , quam Diuinum Petrum Apostolum tradidisse Romanis , Religio vsque nunc ab eo insinuata declarat : quamque Pontificem Damasum sequi claret , & Petrum Alexandriae Episcopum , Virum Apostolicae sanctitatis : Wee wil el menne to walke in that Religion , whiche Holy Peter the Apostle deliuered to the Romaines , as the Faithe firste enkendled by him , and stil contine wed vntil this daie , dooth declare : whiche Religion also it is plaine , that Pope Damasus foloweth , and Peter the Bishop of Alexandria , a man of Apostolique holinesse . Here the Emperoure Theodosius commaundeth his Subiectes to folowe , as wel the Faithe of Peter the Bishop of Alexandria , as of Damasus the Bishop of Rome .

And yet in the nexte title folowinge , he openeth his owne meaning in this wise by other Eramples , Cod. Theodosi . li. 16. Titu . 3. Sozom. li. 7. ca 9 more at large : Episcopis tradi omnes Ecclesias mox iubemus , quos constabit vti Communione Nectarij Episcopi Constantinopolitanae Ecclesiae , & Timothei , &c. Wee commaunde , that foorthwith the Churches be restoared to al Bishoppes , of whom it shal appeare , that they Communicate with Nestorius the Bishop of Constantinople , or with Timotheus : or sutche as shal haue felowship , or agreemente in Faithe , with the Bishoppes of Alexandria in Egypte : and with Pelagius the Bishop of Laodicea : and with Diodorus the Bishop of Tarsus in Asia : and with Amphilochius the Bishop of Iconium : and with Optimus the Bishop of Antioche : and with Helladius the Bishop of Caesaria : and with Otreius the Bishop of Melite : and with Gregorius the Bishop of Nyssa : and with Terennius the Bishop of Scythia : and with Marmarius the Bishop of Martianopolis . Euery of these seueral Bishoppes , M. Hardinge , by the Emperoures iudgemente , in trial of the Catholique Faithe , had as greate Authoritie , and weighte , as the Bishop of Rome .

But Pope Coelestinus , yée saie , desired Cyrillus the Bishop of Alexandria , to represente his persone , and to supplie his rouine in the Councel of Ephesus , that is to saie , to haue the Firste place in the Councel . For the Firste Place in al Ecclesiastical Assemblies was alloted to the Bishop of Rome : Dis. 22. Renouantes . The Seconde , to the Bishop of Constantinople : The Thirde , to the Bishop of Alexandria : The Fourth , to the Bishop of Antioche : The Fifthe , to the Bishop of Hierusalem .

This packinge of places therefore bitwéene Coelestinus , and Cyrillus , was a Mysterie , pourposely canuessed , to kéepe the Bishop of Constantinople , whom the Pope euermore enuied , out of countenaunce . For by this Policie , the Bishop of Alexandria , that shoulde haue had the Thirde Place , was handsomely shifted into the Firste : and the Bishop of Constantinople , whiche , in the Bishop of Romes absence , shoulde haue had the Firste Place , was remoued downe to the Seconde .

Howe be it , what auaileth al this , M. Hardinge , to further your pourpose , & to proue , that Councelles were summoned by the Pope ? Verily it appeareth not hitherto , that either Coelestinus , or Cyrillus , or any other Bishop had any sutche Power , or Authoritie to summone Councelles . This is it , that yée shoulde haue proued . As for the Firste , or Seconde Place , wée moued no question .

Againe , yée séeme to saie , the Pope of righte was euermore Presidente in al Councelles . This , if yée knowe it , is an other Vntruthe : If yée knowe it not , it is an erroure . Theodoretus , li. 3. Cap. 7. For it is plaine , that in the Firste Councel of Nice Pope Iulius was not Presidente , but Eustathius the Bishop of Antioche . The Popes Legates , as it is said before , Euagri . Lib. 4. Cap. 38. were placed beneath in the fourthe roume : In the Fifthe Councel of Constantinople , Menna the Bishop of the same Cittie , was President , & not the Pope . Nicephor . Li. 17. Cap. 27. In the Second Ephesine Councel , Dioscorus the Bishop of Alexandria was Presidente . In the Seconde Councel of Carthage it seemeth Gennedius was the Presidente .

This Dignitie then passed not by Enheritance , Concil. Chalced. Acti . 1. Dioscoro . Exactis Conci . Carthag. 2. or by Succession , as the Pope nowe woulde séeme to claime it : but , either by choise of the Councel , or by fauoure of the Prince . Thus Hosius the Bishop of Corduba in Spaine , not by right of his place , Sozom. li. 3. ca. 12. Socra . li. 2. ca. 20. Athanas . Apologia 2. but for the woorthinesse of his persone , was appointed Presidente in the Councel of Sardica . And Athanasius speaketh of him in this wise with greate admiration , Cuius non fuit ille Concilij Princeps ? In what Councel hath not Hosius benne the Presidente , or Chiefe ?

Yée saie , Pope Syluester Christened the Emperoure Constantinus , and therefore was his Spiritual Father . This maie passe emonge other your Truthes . For your Popes , by theire Omnipotente Power maie Minister Sacramentes , being deade . And yet , notwithstandinge al this were true , M. Hardinge , yet your cause thereby were litle furthereo . Onlesse perhaps yée wil reason thus : Pope Syluester Christened the Emperoure : Ergo , The Pope hathe Authoritie , to Calle Councelles . Howe be it , onlesse this Argumente be better digested , your very Sophisters of Louaine wil hardely allowe it .

But in déede , that whole tale , touchinge the Christeninge of the Emperoure Constantine , Inter Acta Liberij . Cap. 6. Euseb. De vita Constan . Orat. 4. is nothing els , but a péeuishe fable . Constantius , the Emperours owne Sonne , vtterly denieth , that Syluester euer Baptized Constantinus his Father . Eusebius saithe , Constantinus was Christened , not in the floorishing state of his age , but onely a litle before he died : not in Rome , but at Nicomedia , in the Kingdome of Epirus : not in a corner , but in the presence of many Bishoppes : and , as S. Hierome saithe , not by Pope Syluester , that then was deade , but by Eusebius the Bishop of Nicomedia . Socra . Anno Aetatis suae . 65. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For proufe whereof , S. Ambrose saithe , Constantino in vltimis constituto , Gratia Baptismatis omnia peccata dimisit : The Grace of Baptisme foregaue Constantine al his sinnes , euen at the ending of his life . Therefore , M. Hardinge , wee must néedes saie , that , either your tale is vntrue , whiche is not strange : or els Constantine was twise Baptized , whiche is very vnlikely .

Cardinal Poole , Hieronym . in Chronico . séeinge the mater to passe so cleare , telleth vs roundely in one woorde , that Eusebius , and Constantius were Ariane Heretiques , and therefore refuseth the whole storie written by Eusebius , Ambro. de obit●● Theodosij . touching the Christening of Constantine . But , sommewhat to soothe you in your tale , let a Fable stand for Truth : & let vs graunt you an impossibilitie , Cardinal . Polus de Baptismo Constantini , Pag. 87. that Constantine was Baptized by Pope Syluester being dead . Yet wil you néedes geather hereof , that the Emperour is Subiecte to the Pope ? Or , that the Pope hath Authoritie to calle Councelles ? What wil you then saie , when the Emperoure is Baptized by somme other Prieste , or Bishop , or by a Midwife ? Shal euery of these therefore require to haue , and to doo the like ? Or , muste wée beléeue , that sutche a Prieste , Bishop , or Midwife shal haue Authoritie to calle Councelles ? In déede , this were a good shorte waie to geate Supremacie . But it might haue pleased you , to remember , that the Cardinal of Ostia vseth alwaies of Office to Consecrat the Pope . Yet , I trow , yée wil not therefore place him aboue the Pope . Elizaeus anointed King Iehu : yet was he not therefore aboue the Kinge . Heruaeus de Potestat . Pp. Ca. 18. Your owne Doctoure saithe , Quòd hoc Argumentum non concludat , patet : quia in Veteri Lege , Sacerdotes , qui Reges inungebant , indubitanter Regibus Subdebantur : It appeareth , that this Argumente concludeth nothinge . For in the Olde Lawe , the Priestes , that anointed the Kinges , were vndoubtedly subiecte to the Kinges .

To conclude , what right Emperoures had in Summoninge of Councelles , by these fewe Authorities , and Examples folowinge , it maie soone appeare . Eusebius saith , Euseb. de Vita Constan . Orat. 3. Constantinus Synodum Oecumenicam Collegit , & Episcopos , vt Vndique accelerarent , honorificis literis conuocauit : ( Not the Pope , but ) Constantine geathered a General Councel , and by honorable Writes called y● Bishoppes of al Countries to repaire thither . Theodor. Lib. 1. Cap. 9. Theodoretus saithe , A greate , and a Holy Councel was geathered to Nice , by the Grace of God , and ( not by the Pope , but ) by the Godly Emperoure . Sozomenus saithe , Sozom. li. 1. ca. 17. ( Not the Pope , but ) The Emperoure Constantine wrote vnto al the Rulers of the Churches , that they shoulde be at Nice by a daie : to the Bishoppes of the Apostolique Sees , to Macarius the Bishop of Hierusalem , and to Iulius the Bishop of Rome . In which woordes this also maie be noted , that the Pope then was vnder the Emperours Summone , no lesse then others .

In the Councel of Constantinople , the Bishoppes wrote thus vnto the Emperoure , Ex mandato tuae Pietatis Constantinopolim conuenimus : Concil. Constantinopoli . 1. Wee are comme to Constantinople , ( not by the Popes Authoritie , but ) by your Maiesties Commission . Athanasius saithe , Athana . de Synodis Artmin . & Seleuceen . Ab Imperatore , praefectisque Literae sequentes in omnem partem missae sunt , eos , qui illuc ituri essent , conuocantes : These Letters , or Writes folowinge were sente out into al places ( not from the Pope , but ) from the Emperoure , and his Lieutenantes , summoning them , that should comme vnto the Councel . S. Chrysostome saith , Chrysost. Epist. 1. Ad Innocentium . Ambros . in Concil. Aquileien . Wee wente in , and humbly besought ( not the Pope , but ) the moste Christian Prince , to calle a Councel . S. Ambrose , speakinge of him selfe , and of other Bishoppes , beinge then at the Councel of Aquileia , saithe thus : Nos conuenimus Aquileiam iuxta Praeceptum Imperatoris : Were are mette togeather at Aquileia , by the Commaundemente of the Emperoure , ( and , not of the Pope ) .

S. Hierome saithe , Orientis , atque Occidentis Episcopos ob quasdam Ecclesiasticas dissensines Romam Imperiales Literae contraxerunt : To staie certaine Ecclesiastical dissensions ( not any the Popes Letters of Commaundemente , but ) the Emperours Writes caused the Bishoppes , Hierony . in Epitaphio Paulae . as wel of the Easte , as of the Weaste , to drawe to Rome .

Of Pope Leo , wee haue saide before . Beinge Pope , and , as M. Hardinge imagineth , hable to summone the world with a becke , thus he writeth to the Emperoure Theodosius : Leo , Epist. 9. Ad Theodosium Imperatorem . Dignetur pietas vestra supplicationi nostrae annuere , vt intra Italiam haberi iubeatis Episcopale Concilium : We beseeche your Godly Maiestie , to graunte vnto our humble requeste , that it maie please you to commaunde a Councel of Bishoppes to be holden within Italie .

Sozomenus saithe , The Pope humbly desireth the Emperoure to summone a Councel . The Arians besought ( not the Pope , but ) the Emperoure Constantius , to commaunde a Councel , to be holden at Antioche . The same Arians afterwarde besought ( not the Pope , but ) the same Emperoure Constantius , to summone an other Councel to Millaine . Againe sozomenus saithe , The Catholique Bishoppes sente Hypatianus theire Embassadoure , to entreate ( not the Pope , but ) the Emperoure , Sozom li. 4. ca. 22 Socrat. li. 2. ca 8. Theodoret. Li. 2. Cap. 15. that , to redresse certaine Erroures , they might haue leaue to meete togeather . Pope Liberius saithe , A Councel is holden at Millaine ( not by my Authoritie , but ) by the Commaundemente of the Prince . Pope Leo saithe , The greate Councel of Chalcedon was sommoned ( not by him selfe , but ) by the trauaile of Martianus the Emperoure . Ruffi . li. 1. ca. 19. Sozom. li. 6. ca. 7. Inter Acta Liberij . The Emperoure Constantius Commaunded twoo seueral Councelles to be keapte at one time : the one at Seleucea in Isauria in the East : the other at Ariminum in Italie in the Weaste . Socrates saith , Sithence the Emperours were firste Christened , the state of the Churche hathe hanged of them : and the greateste Councelles haue benne , Leo ad Anatolium . Socra . li. 2. ca. 37 Socrates , Lib. 5. in prooemio . and be keapte by theire aduise .

Thus many Anciente Councelles wée are hable to shewe you , summoned by Emperours . Nowe shewe you , M. Hardinge , either that the Emperoure did al these thinges by the Authoritie of the Pope : or , that the Emperoure was onely the Popes Summoner , to calle to Councel sutche , and so many , as it shoulde like his Holinesse to commaunde : Or , that the Pope did euer sommone any one Ancient General Councel by his owne onely right , without further Commission from the Emperoure , then wil wée saie , yée haue saide somme thing . As for al , that ye haue nowe said , in good soothe , it is lesse , then nothinge .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 3.

And when Rufine , the Heretique , had alleged for his Authoritie a Councel , whiche , as he thought , should make for him : S. Hierome his Aduersarie , to confute him , Tel vs ( quod hee ) what Emperoure commaunded that Councel to be called ? The same S. Hierome againe in his Epitaphe vpon Paula , maketh mention of the Emperours Letters , whiche gaue commaundemente , to cal the Bishoppes of Italie , and Graecia to Rome , to a Councel .

M. Hardinge .

Bisides that ye * * Vntruthe , prceding of Ignorance : as it maie soone appeare . doo strangely , to cal Rufine an Heretike , wee saie , that S. Hierome might wel demaund , what Emperoure summoned that Councel , which was neuer summoned . Againe we confesse , that some Emperours haue summoned both Latine and Greeke Bishops . ‡ ‡ Reade the former Answeare . But ye proue not , that any did it as supreme heade , and as iudge in matters of Religion , but by the consent of the Bishops of Rome , as I haue declared before .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Were you not a stranger in your owne Bookes , M. Harding , yée would not thinke it so strange a mater , to heare Ruffinus called an Heretique . S. Hierome doubted not so to calle him . Hierony in Apologia contra Ruffinum . Thus he saith : Dum mihi inconstantiae crimen impingit , se Haereticum , &c : Ita verrit Origenem , vt , qui in Trinitate Catholiquum legeret , in alijs Haereticum non caueret : While Ruffinus chargeth me with inconstancie , he proueth him selfe to be an Heretique , &c. Ruffinus hath so translated Origen into Latine , that who so findeth him Catholique touchinge the Trinitie , shoulde neuer suspecte him , in any thinge els , to be an Heretique . In eadem Apologia . Againe he saith vnto him , Solos Haereticos non recipimus , quos vos solos recipitis : Onely Heretiques wee receiue not into our houses : And yet them onely you receiue .

Anastasius , the Bishop of Rome , hath thus published his Iudgemente of the same Ruffinus : Anastasius ad Episcopum Hierosolymorum . Apud Hieronym . To. 4. Omni suspicione seposita , Ruffinum scito , quòd proptia mente Origenis dicta in Latinum transtulit , ac probauit . Nec dissimilis ab eo est , qui alienis vitijs praestat assensum . Illud tamen scire te cupio , ita haberi à nostris partibus alienum , vt quid agat , vbi sit , nec scire cupiamus : Al suspicion sette aparte , knowe thou , that Ruffinus hath translated Origen ( the Heretiques ) woordes into Latine , accordinge to his owne likinge , and wel alloweth the same . And , who so euer geueth his consente vnto an other mannes faulte , it not vnlike vnto him . Notwithstandinge thus mutche I woulde haue thee to knowe , that Ruffinus is so far from our felowship , or profession of Faithe , that wee desire not to knowe , neither what he dooth , nor where he is .

Vincentius saithe , Vincent . in Speculo , li. 17. ca. 99. that S. Hierome charged Ruffinus with the Pelagian Heresie . Erasmus saith , Ruffinus non fuit alienus ab Origenistarum Haeresi : Ruffinus was not cleare from the Origenians Heresie . Againe , speakinge of the same Heretiques , Erasmus in Vita Hieronymi . he saithe , Huius reī Dux , & signifer Aquileiensis Ruffinus fuit . Againe , Notat , nescio quem : ipsum , opinor , Ruffinum , qui in eam Haeresim inductus est à Magistro quopiam , Erasm in Epist. Hieronym . ad Principiam . In Schol. &c. Againe , Monet , vt explosa factione Origenistarum , cos etiam eijciat , qui clam , & oblique essent Origenistae , Ruffinum , & illius amicos : The Captaine , and standarde bearer of this Heresie , was Ruffinus of Aquileia , &c. Againe , S. Hierome here noteth somme body , I knowe not whom : but I thinke , Ruffinus him selfe : that was brought into this Heresie by somme teacher , Erasm . in Argumento Epistolae Theophili ad Hieronym . &c. Againe , He warneth his frende , that hauinge renounced the Origenian Heretiques , he woulde likewise renounce them , that priuily , and in secrete were Origenian Heretiques , meaninge Ruffinus , and his frendes .

Likewise againe he saithe , Ruffinus grauissima suspicione premebatur , quòd esset Origenista . Sub hoc enim titulo Arianorum Haeresis conata est repullulascere : Ruffinus was greeuously supected to be an Origenian Heretique . Erasm . De Libris Origenis . For vnder that name the Arian Heresie beganne to reuiue . Thus yée sée , M. Hardinge , it was not so greate an Heresie , to saie , that Ruffinus was an Heretique .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision . 4.

Continually for the space of Fiue Hundred yeeres , the Emperour alone appointed the Ecclesiastical Assemblies , and called the Councelles of the Bishoppes togeather .

We nowe therefore marueile the more at the vnreasonable dealinge of the Bishop of Rome , who knowinge , what was the Emperours right , when the Churche was wel ordered , knowing also that it is nowe a common right to al Princes , for so mutche as Kinges are nowe fully possessed in the seueral partes of the whole Empire , doothe so without consideration , assigne that office alone to him selfe , & taketh it sufficient in Summoning a General Councel , to make that man , that is Prince of the whole worlde , no otherwise partaker thereof , then he woulde make his owne seruaunte .

M. Hardinge .

Where you saie , The Emperoure alone celebrated , kepte , or helde Councelles , for so is your Latine , ‡ ‡ This is M. Hardinges modestie . Reade the Answeare nexte goinge before this , sauing one . it is too impudently faced , without any face , without proufe , without Truthe . Thei were Celebrated , or holden * * vntruthplaine , and euident . For many times the Popes Legares were Vnderlings and Inferiours vnto others . by the popes Legates , the Patriarkes , and Bishoppes , and not by Emperours . Al be it , Emperours might 〈◊〉 them , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For the Emperoures Embassadours sitting in Councel , were called Illustrissimi Iudices . but not as Iudges . And thei haue euer benne called Episcopalia Concilia , not * * Nomore were thei called X Papalia . 〈◊〉 cratoria , Councelles of Bishoppes , not of Emperours . And diuerse Councels , not accompted General 〈◊〉 kepte by Bishoppes before any Emperour was Christened . As those , whiche were kepte by S. 〈◊〉 Hierusalem , Actor . 15. mentioned in the Actes of the Aposties : in the time of victor the Pope , in Palestina and other places , concerning the kepinge of Easier : At Rome about the time of Pope Fabian , against the Nouatian Heresie : At Antioche , againste Paulus Samosatenus , and many others . Al whiche 〈◊〉 were kepte , not onely without the presence of the Emperoures person , but ‡ ‡ So were the moste parte of the same Councelles keapte without , either the Presence , or the Power , or Authoritie of the Pope . also without his Power , or Authoritie . And yet , if he were head of the Churche , it coulde not haue benne donne without him .

If you saie , He was not then Christened , I answeare , that Christianitie is no parte of his Imperial Power . It is a spiritual Power , whereby he is made the sonne of God . He maie thereby be ruled by a Christian Bishop . But verely , he hath no Power geeuen to him , whereby he maie rule Bishoppes . * * O folie of folies . As if the Emperours Power were either enceased , or empaired by his Baptisme . Baptisme maketh a man the Childe of the Churche . But * it is Imposition of handes , in consecratinge a Christian Priesie to be a Bishop , that geueth him rule ouer others , and not the Sacramente of Baptisme . Therefore , Emperours were not the holders or kepers of Councelles , the firste fiue hundred yeares . Yea , three hundred were fully expired , before the Emperoure professed openly the Christian Faithe . So mutche the lesse maie you marueile , that nowe the Bishop of Rome , calleth and kepeth Councelles , chiefely by his owne authoritie . ‡ ‡ A substantial good reason . But what if S. Ambrose saie , He Succedeth Iudas ? For he succedeth Peter , not Nero. He tooke his authoritie of Christe imm● diatly , not of the people of Rome . Be the Emperoure Christian , or not Christian , the Bishop of Rome by * * The Pope a Christian man by Nature of Office . nature of his Bishoppes office , is not onely alwaies a Christian man , but also a chiefe Prieste .

Where you saie , the Bishop of Rome in summoning the late Councel , did besides good consideration , in that he made a man , that is Prince of the whole world , no other wise partaker thereof , then he would make his owne seruainte : you forgette your selfe fouly , and seeme to recke litle what you speake , so you vtter your malice For who is that , whome you cal Prince of the whole worlde ? What contradiction is this ? Saide you not in the same sentence before , that kinges are nowe fully possessed in the seueral partes of the whole Empire ? Howe then cal you Ferdinande ‡ ‡ It is written in your own Glose , Iura commentia decunt , quòd Imperator est Dominus Mundi . Prince of the whole worlde ? Wel , this is but one of the common ornamentes of your Rhetorique . Sir the Emperour Ferdinande , of famous memorie , was not so abused of Pius the fourth , that blessed man , Bishop of Rome in these our daies . Ye rather are they , who abuse the Emperours Maiestie . For ye depose him cleane from his seate : ye finde faulte that euer Leo the thirde made an Emperoure in the Weste . Ye complaine openly that the Emperial Maiestie had not continued stil at Constantinople . Bilike , to the intent the Turke might nowe haue had it , who is knowen to suffer in his Dominions al Faithes , and Religions : for whiche cause it maie seeme , ye fauer him . As for Pope Pius that nowe is , he deferred the olde priuilege of honoure vnto the Emperoure Ferdinande , without the olde burthen . For where as in olde times * * Vntruthes two togeather . For nether was it so , not dothe Socrates recorde it so . Councelles were holden by authoritie of the Pope , * as Socrates witnesseth , yet the Emperour bare the charge of calling the Bishoppes togeather . Lib. 8. ca. 2. But nowe the Pope him selfe bare a greate parte of that burthen , and communicated his propose fully with the Emperoure .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Whether it were the Emperoure alone , that appointed Ecclesiastical Councelles , it maie appeare by that wee haue already saide . The Pope alone , I assure you , pererssuccessours . it was not . Maie , the Emperoure , as it is saide , and proued before , oftentimes helde sutche Assemblies , when , & where him selfed listed , whether the Pope would , or no. The Popes dutie was onely to appeare emongeste other Bishoppes , when he was called .

I graunte , sutche Councelles had theire name of Bishoppes , and were called Concilia Episcopalia , for that maters there were specially ordered by the discretion , and iudgement of the Bishoppes . But wil you therefore conclude , that the same Councelles perteined nothing to the Prince ? Certainely , the Emperoure Constantinus Commaunded al the Bishoppes to appeare before him , and to yelde him a reckeninge of theire Determinations in the Councel . This was the tenoure of his Write : Sozomen . li. 2. ca. 28. Quotquot Synodum Tyri habitam compleuistis , sine mora ad Pietatis nostrae Castra properetis : ac re ipsa , quàm sincerè , ac rectè iudicaueritis , ostendatis : Idque Coram me : Socrat li. 1. ca. 33. quem sincerum esse Dei Ministrum , ne vos quidem ipsi negabitis : As many of you , as haue keapte the Councel at Tyrus , repaire to our Campe without desaie : and shewe me in deede , howe sincerely , and rightly yee haue proceded : And that , euen before me : whom yowe your selues cannot denie to bee the Sincere Seruante of God .

Athanasius was the greatteste trauailer in the Councel of Nice againste the Arians : Triparti . Histo. li. 2. ca. 2. yet was he then no Bishop , but onely a Deacon . But hereof wee haue sufficiently saide before .

Christianitie , yee saie , is no parte of the Emperial Power . Yee might likewise haue saide , Christianitie is no parte of the Papale Power . Verily , it can not wel appeare , that Peter , and Paule had euer any sutche Christianitie . The Emperours right is neither encreased , nor abated by his Baptissne . Whether he be Faithful , or Vnfaithful , he is the Minister of God , and beareth the Swerde to pounishe sinne .

Yee saie , The Pope succedeth Peter , and not Nero : Therefore he calleth , and keepeth Councelles chiefely by his owne Authoritie . Of sutche proper Argumentes , M. Hardinge , wee marueile not mutche , though yee make no stoare . Howe be it , somme menne haue thought , yee doo S. Peter greate wronge , appointinge him sutche Children , to be his Heires . For many of them , in al theire dealinges , haue resembled Nero , Bernard . De Consideratione . li 4. Citatur ab Illyrico inter Test . veritat . pag. 387. Erasmus , In Adagio , Sileni Alcibiadis . more then Peter . S. Bernarde saithe thus vnto Pope Eugenius : In his successisti , non Petro , sed Constantino : In these thinges yee haue succeded , not Peter the Apostle , but the Emperoure Constantine . Pope Adrian the fourth was woonte to saie : Succedimus , non Petro in docendo , sed Romulo in parricidio : Wee succeede , not Peter in teachinge , but Romulus in killinge our Brethren .

Erasmus saithe , Pontifices nunc sunt Vicarij lulij Caesaris , Alexandri Magni , Croesi , Xerxis : non Christi , non Petri : The Popes nowe are the Vicares of Iulius Caesar , of Alexander the Greate , of Croesus , and of Xerxes : not of Peter . It is written in a Sermon , bearinge the name of S. Ambrose : Qui debuerint esse Vicarij Apostolorum , Ambro. Citatur ab Illyrico inter Test . pag. 142. Robert . Gallus , cap. 5. factisunt Socij Iudae : Thei , that shoulde haue benne the Apostles Vicares , are nowe becomme Iudas Felowes . Robertus Gallus , that liued wel-neare three hundred yeeres past , imagineth , Christe thus to saie of the Pope : Quis posuit Idolum hoc in Sede mea , vt imperaret Gregi meo ? Who sette this Idole in my roume , and made him Ruler ouer my Flocke ?

Yet , Dis. 19. Sic omnes . In Gloss . Cardinal . Cusanus , De Autho. Eccle. & concilij Supra & contra Scripturam you saie , the Pope is alwaies , not onely a Christian man , but also a Chiefe Prieste , ( not by Faithe , but ) by the nature of his Office . Euen so your Glose telleth you , Papa Sanctitatem recipit à Cathedra : The Pope receiueth his holinesse of his Chaire : that is to saie , of the nature of his Office . Cardinal Cosanus saithe , Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae , &c. Veritas per Christum Cathedrae alligata est , non Personis . Ait enim : Super Cathedram Mosi sederunt Scribae , & Pharisaei : The Truthe cleaueth faste to the Popes Chaire , &c. Christe hathe nailed his Truthe to the Popes Chaire , and not to his persone . For he saithe , The Scribes , and Phariseis are placed in Moses Chaire . An other saithe , Dis. 40. Non nos . In Gloss . Tameisi Papa non sit bonus , tamen semper praesumitur esse bonus . In Papa si desint bona acquisita per meritum , sufficiunt , quae a loci praedecessore praestantur : Notwithstandinge the Pope be not good , Parte hereof hathe benne touched before . yet he is euer presumed to be good . If the Pope lacke good vertues of his owne , the vertues of Peter , his Predecessoure , are sufficiente .

There were neuer so many Heretiques in any one See , as haue benne in the See of Rome : as I haue already sufficientely , and fully proued . And yet , yee saie . The Pope cannot erre . There were neuer so notorious Examples , or , as Platyna calleth them , Platyna . In Benedict . 4. Monsters of filthy life : Yet , yee saie , they are al Holy Fathers , and holde theire Christianitie by Nature of office . Howe be it , youre Doctoure Alphonsus saithe , Alphonsus , Aduersus Hareses . li. 1. ca. 9. Quamuis credere teneamur ex Fide , Verum Petri Successorem esse Supremum Pastorem Totius Ecclesiae , non tamen tenemur eadem Fide credere . Leonem , aut Clementem esse Verum Petri Successorem : Although wee be bounde to beleue , that the True Successoure of Peter is the Higheste Pastoure of al the Churche , yet are wee not bounde with like Faithe to beleue , that Pope Leo , and Pope Clemente are the True Successoures of Peter . Matthae . 3. Iohn the Baptiste saide rightly vnto the Phariseis , that likewise made vauntes of theire Succession , Neuer saie , Abraham is your Father . For God is hable euen of these stones to raise vp Children vnto Abraham . Chrysostom . In Opere Imperficto . Homi. 43. Dist. 41. Multi . Gregori . Nazian. In Sanctum Lauacrum . Chrysostome saithe : Non locus Sanctificat hominem , sed homo locum : Nec Cathedra facit Sacerdotem , sed Sacerdos Cathedram : The place sanctifieth not the Man , but the Man sanctifieth the Place : Neither doothe the Chaire make the Prieste , but the Prieste maketh the Chaire . Nazianzene saithe : Non locorum est Gratia , sed Spiritus : The grace of God goeth not by Place , but by the Holy Ghoste .

Chrysostome saithe : Omnis Christianus , qui suscipit Verbum Petri , fit Thronus Petri : Chrysost. In Mat. Homi. 33. et Petrus sedet in eo : Euery Christian man , that receiueth the woorde of Peter , is made Peters Chaire : and S. Peter reasteth in him .

But here haue you founde out a foule contradiction in our woordes . Who is he , saie you , whom yee cal the Prince of the worlde ? Not the Pope , M. Hardinge : Leste yee shoulde happily be deceiued : Notwithstandinge , youre Felowes haue so often tolde vs , In sexto . li. 3. Tituil . 16. ca. vnica . Papa rotius Orbis obtinet Principatum : The Pope hath the Princehoode of al the worlde .

The Emperoures Maiestie wee finde oftentimes entitled by this name : But your Popes Holinesse , so entitled , wee finde neuer : Onlesse it be in somme certaine late Decrees , and Gloses of his owne . Al be it , you of late haue mutche abated the Emperoures Honoure , and haue made him onely the Popes man . For thus yee saie : Imperator ( Occidentis ) est Procurator , siue Defensor Romanae Ecclesiae : Dist. 98. Si Imperator . In Gloss . The Emperoure ( of the Weaste ) is the Proctoure , or Stewarde of the Churche of Rome .

Yet , Chrysostom . Ad Popul . Antiochen . Homi. 2. Chrysostome saithe , Imperator est Summitas , & Caput omnium super terram hominum : The Emperoure is the Toppe , and Heade of al menne vpon the Earthe . In the Councel of Chalcedon , the Emperoure is called , Dominus Vniuersi Mundi : Concil. Chalce . Actio . 1. In nomine . The Lorde of the Whole Worlde .

Perhaps ye wil saie , The State of the Empiere is nowe empouerished : And therefore the Emperoure hathe loste his Title . Yet your owne Doctours , & Glosers coulde haue tolde you : Extra de Maiorita . & Obedien. vnam sanctam . In Gloss . Iura communia dicunt , quòd Imperator est Dominus Mundi : Notwithstanding the decaie of the Empiere , The Common Lawes saie , that the Emperoure is the Lorde of the Worlde . Rob. Hol●ote , speakinge of the Emperoure of Germanie , saithe thus : Hic est Rex Regum , cui omnes subditae sunt Nationes , & Populi , Holcote , In Sapien. Lectio . 199. Otho Irisingēsis &c. The Emperoure is the Kinge of Kinges , vnto whom al Nations , and Countries be in subiection . The Romaines of late yeeres wrote thus vnto the Emperoure Conradus : Excellentissimo , & Praeclarissimo Vrbis , & Oibis totius O●mino , &c. Vnto the moste excellente , The Emperour the Lorde of the world and moste Noble Emperoure , the Lorde bothe of the Cittie , and also of al the whole Worlde . Therefore , M. Hardinge , to moue this vaine quarrel , without somme cause , it was great folie .

Councelles , ye saie , In olde times were holden by Authoritie of the Pope . For proufe whereof , yee allege Socrates in the eight booke , and the seconde Chapter : But Woorde , or Sentence , yee allege none . Howe be it , it was a great ouersight , to allege the Eighth Booke of Socrates , whereas Socrates him selfe neuer wrote but Seuen , and so far to ouerleape your Authoure . Notwithstandinge , this smal Erroure maie wel be dissembled emongest so many . How be it , touchinge the thing it selfe , yee maie as easily finde it in the Eighth Booke of Socrates , that neuer was written , as els where . For in deede emongeste al , that euer he wrote , this thinge certainely , that you allege , he wrote neuer .

The Apologie , Cap. 12. Diuision , 5. & Ca. 13. Diui. 1.

And , although the modestie , and mildenesse of the Emperoure Ferdinando be so greate , that he can beare this wronge , bicause peraduenture he vnderstandeth not wel the Popes packinge , yet ought not the Pope of his holinesse to offer him that wronge , nor to claime an other mans right , as his owne .

But hereto somme wil replie : The Emperoure in deede called Councelles at that time , yee speake of , bicause the Bishop of Rome was not yet growen so greate , as he is nowe : but yet the Emperour did not then sitte togeather with the Bishoppes in Councel , or once bare any stroke with his Authoritie in theire consultations . I answeare , nay , that it is not so . For , as witnesseth Theodorete , the Emperoure Constantine , sate not onely togeather with them in the councel at Nice , but gaue also aduise to the Bishoppes , howe it was best to trie out the mater by the Apostles , and Prophetes writinges , as appeareth by these his owne woordes . In disputation ( saithe he ) of maters of Diuinitie , wee haue set before vs to folowe , the Doctrine of the Holy Ghoste . For the Euangelistes , and the Apostles woorkes , and the Prophetes saieinges shewe vs sufficiently , what opinion we ought to haue of the wil of God .

M. Hardinge .

For the sittinge of Emperoures in Councelles , you treate a common place not necessarie . No man euer denied , but Emperoures maie sitte in them . we acknowledge two sortes of settinge : one for the assessours , an other for the Iudge * * Vntruthe For Cusanus saith , Inuenio Imperatores in Cōcil●●s iudicia fec sse . Reade the Answeare . No Emperoure euer sate as a Iudge in Councel : but many , both Emperoures in person , and their Lieutenauntes for them haue sitten , as being ready to assiste and defende that , In vita Constant. lib. 3. Theodorit . Lib. 1. ca. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . whiche the Bishoppes had Iudged and decreed .

What maner a seate greate Constantine had in the firste Councel at Nice , Eusebius in his life , and Theodoritus doth declare . After that al the Bishoppes were sette in their seates , to the number of 318 in came the Emperoure last with a smal companie . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe enclosed . For this lowe litle Chaire was al of beaten golde , and was lette in the highest place of the Councel . A lowe litle chaire beinge sette for him in the middest , he would not sitte downe , before the Bishoppes had reuerently signified so mutche vnto him , and as Theodoritus writeth , not before he had desired the Bishoppes to permitte him so to doo . Nowe thinke you that the Supreme head of the Churche should haue * * Vaine folie . For the Prince neuer commeth into the Parlament House , before the Lordes b● sette comme in last , and hane sitten * * Vntruthe . For S●zomen saith , ●●at thro●u● , ille ●●ximus , Salios omnes superaus . beneath his subiectes , and haue staied to sitte , vntil thei had as it were geuen him leaue ?

Neither consulted he with the Bishoppes , Constantine in the councel of Nice . but required them to consult of the maters , thei came for , as Theodorite witnesseth . Neither spake he there so generally as you reporte , nor framed his tale in that sorte as you faine , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe euident . For Cassiodorus expoundeth it thus , Quid de Diuina Lege sapere debeamus . vniuersally of the wil of God , ‡ but of the Godhed , saieinge , that the bookes of the Gospels , and of the Apostles , and the Oracles of the Prophetes doo plainely teache vs , what we ought to thinke of the Godhed , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For the controuersie about whiche the Arians made so mutche adoo , was touchinge the equalitie of Godhed in Christe , and his consubstantialitie with God the Father . And by those wordes and other , whiche there he vttered , he tooke not vpon him to define , or Iudge , but onely to exhorte them , to agree together in one Faithe . For amonge those Bishops certaine there were , that fauoured the Heresie of Arius . Suche examples you bringe for defence of your parte , as make mutche against you . Not that you delight in making a rodde for your selfe , but bicause you haue no better : and somwhat must you needes saie , lest the stage you plaie your parte on , shoulde stande stil .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Emperoures , ye saie , sate in Councelles , as Assessours onely , but not as Iudges : That is to saie , thei sate by the Bishoppes , & helde theirpeace , & tolde the clocke , & saide nothinge . Yet youre Doctours saie , Assessor Episcopi non potest esse Laicus : The Assessoure of a Bishop maie not be a Laieman . De Rescriptis . Statutum . §. Assessorem . Geminianus . Euseb. In vita Constant . Ora. 3. But , touchinge the mater it selfe , Eusebius , that was alwaies neare aboute the Emperoure Constantine , & wrote his life , and was presente at the Councel , saithe thus : Constantinus , quasi Communis quidam Episcopus à Deo constitutus , Ministrorum Dei Synodos conuocauit : Nec dedignatus est adesse , & considere in medio illorum , consorsque fieri ipsorum , &c. Constantine , as if he had benne a Common Bishop appoited by God , called togeather Councelles of Goddes Ministers : and disdeigned not him selfe to sitte in the middes emongest them , and to be partetaker of theire dooinges . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Euseb. eodem loco . Againe , Constantinus him selfe saithe thus : Ego intereram Concilio , tanquam vnus ex vobis : I was presente at the Councel emongeste you , as one of you . Againe Eusebius saithe , Vnus , & Vnicus Deus instituit Constantinum Ministrum suum , & Doctorem Pietatis omnibus terris : The One , and Onely God hath appointed Constantine to be his Minister , and the Doctoure of true Godlinesse vnto al Nations . And Theodoretus saithe , Laudatissimus Rex Apostolicas curas suscipiebat animo suo : Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 24. At Pontifices , non solùm non ae dificare Ecclesiam , sed etiam illus fundamenta labefactare conabantur : The good Emperoure hadde Apostolique Cares in his harte : But the Bishoppes did not onely not builde vp the Churche of God , but also ouerthrew the fundations of the same .

And againe Eusebius saithe : Euseb. In vita Constanti . Ora. 1. Nicepho . in praefatione ad Emmanuelem . Constantinus erat Vocalissimus Dei praeco , & quasi Seruator , ac Medicus animarum : Constantine the Emperoure was a moste Cleare Preacher of God , and as it were , the Saueoure , and Physicion of Soules . In this sorte Nicephorus writeth vnto the Emperoure Emmanuel Palaeologus : Tu es Dux Professionis Fidei nostrae , &c. Youre Maiestie is the Captaine of the Profession of our Faithe : youre Maiestie hath restored the Catholique , and vniuersal Churche . Your Maiestie hath refourmed the Temple of God from Marchantes , and Exchaungers of the Heauenly Doctrine , and from Heretiques , by the woorde of Truthe .

Yee saie , When the Bishoppes were sette , in came the Emperoure laste with a smal companie . Theodoret. li. 1. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Whereof yee would haue vs to geather , that he came onely as somme inferioure personne , and not as a Iudge . Howe be it , Theodoretus saithe , Constantinus iussit Episcopos ingredi : Constantine Commaunded the Bishoppes to goe in .

And Eusebius saithe : Sedit tota Synodus reuerenter , vt par fuit , cum silentio expectans aduentum Principis : The whole Councel sate in reuerent , and comely order , quietely , and in silence lookinge for the Princes comminge .

This is no good proufe , M. Hardinge , that the Emperoure in the Councel was inferioure to the Bishoppes . Nay , the Bishoppes were commaunded to take their places , to sitte in silence , and to waite for the Emperoures comminge , as his Subiectes . Againe he saithe : Signo , quo aduentus Imperatoris indicatus est , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . dato , omnibus exuergentibus , ipse deinde ingressus est medius , tanquàm aliquis Dei coelestis Angelus : When the watche woorde was geuen , that the Emperoure was comme , the Bishoppes stoode vp from their places , and his Maiestie past along through the middes of them , as if he had benne an Angel of God .

But the Emperoure , yee saie , sate vpon a litle lowe stoole , and therein shewed him selfe inferioure to the Bishops . Yea , M. Hardinge , but Eusebius saithe , that the same litle lowe stoole was made of whole beaten gould : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And therein , I trowe , he was sommewhat aboue the Bishoppes .

Yee saie , he sate alowe , and in the middes of the Bishoppes : and hereof yee conclude , he was theire Inferioure . So Iulius Caesar , notwithstandinge he were the Emperoure of Rome , yet , when he came into the College of Poetes , he was wel contented , to be placed in the lowest roume : And yet was he not therefore thiere Inferioure .

But , touching the Emperoure Constantines place in the Councel , Eusebius saithe thus : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Accessit ad summum gradum ordinum : He went vp to the highest rising of al the benches . Sozomenus saithe : Imperator peruenit ad Caput Concilij : & sedit in Throno quodam , quem ipse sibi fecerat . Erat autem Thronus ille Maximus , & alios omnes superans : The Emperoure went vp to the headde , or highest place of the Councel : and sate downe in a Throne of estate , that he had prepared for him selfe . But this Throne was very greate , and farre passed al the rest . In the meane season , the Popes Legate sate , as it is saide before , neither in the First place , nor in the Seconde , nor in the Thirde , but in the Fourthe . Hereby it seemeth , to appeare plainely , that Constantinus the Emperoure had his place in the Councel aboue the Bishoppes .

Notwithstandinge , sithence that time the Pope hathe determined , it muste nowe be otherwise . Ceremoniarium . li. 1. Sect. 14. ca. 2. His order is this , as it hath benne alleaged before : Sedes Imperatoris parabitur , &c. The Emperoures Seate shal be prepared nexte vnto the Popes Seate , and shal haue twoo steppes ioined vnto the same : but neither so broade , nor so longe , as bee the Popes . It shal be apparelled with clothe of golde : but Canopie euer the heade it shal haue none . Et aduertendum , quo'd locus , vbi sedet Imperator , non sit altior loco , vbi tenet pedes Pontifex . Howe be it , this thinge is specially to be marked , that the place , whereupon the Emperoure sittethe , maie be no higher , then the place , where the Pope setteth his Feete . Thus wee see , the Emperoure is allowed , to sitte at the Popes foote stoole : but in any case to mounte no higher .

The Emperoure , yee saie , stoode stil ( no doubte , with Cappe in hande ) and durste not sitte downe without leaue : And thereby testified , him selfe to be Inferioure to the Bishoppes . These colde Conclusions wil hardely serue . For Traianus , beinge the Emperoure of Rome , was contented him selfe to stande afoote , and , for honours sake , commaunded the Consulles to sitte downe . Yet was he not therefore Inferioure in dignitie to the Consulles .

Helena the Empresse , Ruffinus . li. 1. ca. 7. apparelled her selfe like a Seruante , and ministred vnto the Holy Virgines , and gaue them water to theire handes , as if in deede she had benne theire Seruaunte : yet was shee not therefore Inferioure vnto the Virgines .

The same Emperoure Constantine at the time of the Sermons , Euseb. In vita Constant . Ora. 4. stoode vpright , and woulde not sitte : for the reuerence , that he bare to the Woorde of God . Yet was he not Inferioure to the Preacher . This was that good Emperoures modestie , and Humilitie , M. Hardinge : but not his dewtie . It were wisedome for Princes , to take heede , they committe not ouermutche to youre handes . For , what so euer they once yeelde of meere Courtesie , streight waie ye claime it , as youre owne .

Howe be it , touchinge the Emperoures Sittinge in the Councel , it was farre otherwise , then you reporte it . Sozomenus saithe : Imperator resedit in Throno , qui illi paratus fuerat : & Synodus iussa est sedere : The Emperoure sate downe in his Chaire of estate prouided for him : Sozome li. 1. ca. 19. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . and ( then ) the Councel was Commaunded to sitte downe . Hereby it appeareth , the Emperoure needed not the Bishoppes leaue : but rather gaue leaue to the Bishoppes .

No doubte , that Godly , and Milde Prince , beeinge in that Reuerende assemblie , bare him selfe with mutche Reuerence . And therfore Eusebius saithe , He sate not downe , Euseb. In vita Constanti . Ora. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . before the Bishoppes had beckened vnto him . But he addeth withal , Post Imperatorem , idem fecerunt omnes : ( Not before , but ) After that the Emperoure was sette , they sate downe al togeather .

Now , M. Hardinge , if he that sate Firste in the Councel , were the Heade of the Churche , as you seeme to saie , then maie I reason thus : The Pope , or his Legate in that Councel sate not First : Ergo , the Pope then was not Heade of the Churche .

Againe , The Emperoure in that Councel sate Firste : Ergo , by youre owne Conclusion , the Emperoure was the Heade of the Churche . Certainely , the Pope him selfe saithe plainely , The Emperoure Constantine was the President , or Ruler of the Nicene Councel . His woordes be theise : Constantinus Praesidens Sanctae synodo , 12. Quae. 1. Fitturam . Gregor. quae apud Nicaeam congregata est : Constantinus the Emperoure , beinge Presidente of the Holy Councel , that was keapte at Nice . These be not our woordes , but the Popes , registred euen in his owne Recordes . Therefore , I truste , yee wil not refuse to geeue them credite .

But you saie , The Emperoure determined , and defined nothinge . Yet the Emperoure him selfe , Euseb. In vita Constant . Orat. 2. contrarie to youre saieinge , saithe thus : Ego suscepi , & perfeci res salutiferas , persuasus Verbo tuo : O Lorde , I tooke in hande , and broughte to passe wholesome thinges , beinge perswaded by thy Worde .

And againe , writinge hereof vnto the Bishoppes of sundrie Churches , he saithe : Ego vobiscum interfui , tanquàm vnus ex vobis . Non enim negauerim , conseruum me vestrum esse : Euseb. In vita Constan Orat. 3. Qua de re mihi maximè gratulor : I was presente at the Councel with you , as one of you . For I cannot denie mee selfe to bee youre Felowe Seruante . In whiche thinge I moste reioise .

Likewise againe he saithe : Ego Nicaeam contraxi magnum numerum Episcoporum : Socra . li. 1. ca. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Cum quibus , cùm essem vnus ex vobis , & Conseruus vester vehementer esse cuperem , etiam ipse suscepi inquisitionem Veritatis : I caused a greate companie of Bishoppes to come to Nice : with whome togeather I tooke in hande the Examination of the Truthe , beinge mee selfe one of you , and mutche desieringe to be therein youre Felowe Seruante .

Likewise saithe Eusebius , Imperator , quasi Iuculentam facem accendens , ne quae occultae Erroris reliquiae superessent , Euseb. In vita Constan . Orat. 3. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . oculo Regio circumspexit : The Emperoure , as hauing enkendled a greate flame , lookte wel aboute with his Princely Eie , that no priuie remnantes of erroure shoulde reaste behinde .

The Bishoppes in the same Nicene Councel , beinge at variance emongeste them selues , offered vp theire Bookes of accusation , not vnto the Pope , or to his Legates , Socrat. li. 1. ca. 8. of whom they had then no greate regarde , but vnto the Emperoure . Neither did the Emperoure put ouer theire quarelles vnto the Popes Iudgemente , but vnto the Iudgemente of God .

Againe , the same Emperoure Constantine saithe , If any Bishop wickedly offende , by the hande of Goddes seruante , that is to saie , by my hande , he shal be pounished .

To be shorte , Theodoret. lib. 1. cap. 19. Cardinal Cusanus saithe : Sciendum est , quòd in vniuersalibus octo Concilijs , vbi Imperatores interfuerunt , & non Papa , semper inuenio Imperatores , & Iudices suos cum Senatu Primatum habuisse , Cardinal . Cusae . De praesidentia . & officium Praesidentiae per interlocutiones , & ex consensu Synodi , sine mandato , conclusiones , & iudicia fecisse . Et non reperitur instantia in octo Concilijs , praeter quam in tertia Actione Concilij Chalcedonensis : Wee muste knowe , that in the Eight General Councelles , where the Emperoures were present , and not the Pope , I euermore finde , that the Emperoures , and theire Iudges , with the Senate had the Gouernemente , and Office of Presidence , by hearinge , and conferring of maters : and that they made Conclusions , and Iudgementes , with the consente of the Councel , and without any further Commission . And there is no manner instance , or exception to be founde in the firste Eight Councelles , sauinge onely in the thirde Action of the Councel of Chalcedon .

Here yee see plainely , by the Authoritie of Cardinal Cusanus , one of youre owne special Doctours , that in the Eight firste General Councelles , the Emperoure was Presidente , and not the Pope .

Where as the Emperoure willed the Bishoppes to conclude theire maters by the Apostolical , and Prophetical Scriptures , He speaketh not , saie you , so generally , as wee reporte him , nor frameth his tale in that sorte , as wee saine , vniuersally of the wil of God , but of the Godhedde . For , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in your fansie signifieth onely the Substance , and Nature of God , and not Goddes Wil , or his Religion . Here , M. Hardinge , it were somme pointe of Learninge , to knowe , what skilful Greke Reader told you this tale . Tripar . Histo. lib. 2. cap. 5. Verily , Cassiodorus , in plaine wise , translateth it thus : Euangelici , & Apostolici libri erudiunt nos , quid de Sacra Lege sapiamus : The Bookes of the Euangelistes , and Apostles , teache vs , what wee ought to thinke ( not onely of the Substance , and Nature of God , but also ) of the Holy Lawe .

Therefore Theodoretus addeth further these woordes : Accipiamus Explicationes quaestionum nostrarum ex dictis Sancti Spiritus : Theodoret. li. 1. cap. 7. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Let vs take the resolution of our questions , out of the woordes of the Holy Ghoste . And immediately before he saithe : De rebus Diuinis disputantes , praescripram habemus Doctrinam Sancti Spiritus : In our Disputations ( not onely of the Godhedde , but also ) of Godly maters , wee haue laide before vs the Doctrine of the Holy Gospel . In like sense S. Hilarie saithe : Non est relictus hominum eloquijs de Dei rebus alius , praeterquam Dei Sermo . Hilari . De Trinitat . li. 7. De rebus Dei . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Omnia reliqua & arcta , & conclusa , & impedita sunt , & obscura : In maters , touchinge God , there is no speache leafte vnto menne , but onely the woorde of God . Al other Authorities be shorte , and narrowe , and darke , and troublesome . Beleue them not hencefoorth therefore , M. Hardinge , that tel you , that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , signifieth onely the Substance , and Nature of Goddes Diuinitie . For , as yee maie easily see , your Glose is vaine , and fighteth directely againste the Texte .

The Apologie , Cap. 13. Diuision . 2.

The Emperoure Theodosius ( as saithe Socrates ) did not onely sitte amongest the Bishoppes , but also ordered the whole argueinge of the cause , and tare in peeces the Heretiques Bookes , and allowed for good the Iudgemente of the Catholiques .

M. Hardinge .

It is wonder to see , howe these menne abuse the Ecclesiastical histories . Whereas thei talke a litle before of the sitting of Emperours in general Councelles , a man would thinke , that now also Theodosius had benne saide to haue sitten among Bishoppes * * As if a priuate Councel , were no Councel . in some general Councel . But there is no sutche mater . Hist. tripar . lib. 9. ca. 19. Theodosius the Emperour conferred with Nectarius the Bishop of Constantinople , howe al Christen men might be brought to an vnitie in Faithe . And after that Nectarius had lerned of Sisinnius a greate Clerke , the best way to be , if al the heades of eche Heresie and Secte , might be induced to be iudged by the olde Fathers and Doctours of the Churche : the godly Emperoure hearing this aduise , caused bothe the Heretikes , and Catholiques also , to write eche of them sutche thinges , as eche of them had to saie for his Belefe . And after praier made , reading ouer al the writinges , ‡ ‡ Fonde folie . As though the Emperoure could Condemne the Heretiques or allowe the Catholiques , without Iudgemente . he reiected the Arians , the Macedonians , and the Eunomians , ‡ embracing onely thier sentence , who agreed vpon the Consubstantialitie of the sonne of God . Here ( saie these Defenders ) Theodosius did not onely sitte amongest the Bishoppes , but also ordered the whole arguing of the cause , tearing the papers of the Heretikes , and allowing the Iudgemente of the Catholiques . To whiche obiection I make this answeare . First , that Theodosius here tooke counsel of Nectarius the Bishop , and folowed it : Secondely , that he intended not to Iudge , whether opinion of al the Sectes were truer , * * A worthy reason . The Emperoure sought meanes to abandon Heresies : Ergo , He iudged not , whether parte was the truer . but onely sought howe to ridde the Churche of controuersies . Otherwise he would not onely haue taken counsel of Nectarius the Catholike Bishop , but also of the Arians , Macedonians , and Eunomians . For he is not a right Iudge , that calleth one side onely to him , and in iudgemente is ruled by it . If then it be plaine , that the Emperoure onely consulted with Catholiques , it is no lesse plaine , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , Contrarie to the plaine storie . that he sate not Iudge vpon the Catholiques . What did he then ? Verely he entended to execute that iudgement , whiche the Bishops had pronounced at Nice , and therefore he conferred onely with menne of that side . And because he was enstructed , that by disputation no good should come , he chose this way , to make al to write their opinions . Not that he minded nowe to lerne his Faithe out of their writinges , sith he had lerned that longe before , and professed the same in his Baptisme : but he sought a way , whereby to put al Heretiques to silence . Therefore , hauing read al the writinges , and hauinge made his praier to God for grace , * * And howe could he make choise without Iudgemente ? to chose the better side , Iacob . 1. 1. Cor. 6. whiche also he made not doubtinge of his Faithe ( for els he were an Infidel , and vnworthy to be a Iudge , euen in the Temporal matters among Christians ) but partely he declared , that al goodnes is to be asked of God , ‡ ‡ Thus M. Hardinge maketh the Emperoure a dissemblinge Hypocrite . partely he would the Heretiques to vnderstande , that he wont not to worke with affection , but with the feare of God . Thus hauing praied and readen the writinges , he executed the iudgemente of the Nicene Councel , and reiected those Heretiques .

Nowe to retourne to the wordes of the Apologie , how saie thei , that the Emperoure not onely sate among Bishoppes , but also causae disceptationi praefuit , was chiefe Ruler and moderatour of the reasoning , and debating of the mater ? Thei cannot saie thus , as of a Councel , whereof thei talke . ‡ ‡ A fonde cauil . It was a priuate Councel of sundrie Bishoppes , and the Iudgemente thereof was specially directed by the Emperoure . For there was no Councel indicted , not onely by the Pope , but neither by the Emperoure , nor by any other Archebishop . ‡ It was a priuate callinge together of certaine heades of eche Secte , and not a solemne ordinarie councel . If there were no Councel of Bishoppes , no sittinge of Bishoppes : if no sitting , no presidence at al. Howe then was Theodosius President , and Iudge of Ecclesiastical causes ?

If we shal reporte the thinge , as it was in truthe done , onely Theodosius vsed a politike way , to put Heretiques to silence . In Actis concilij Aquileiensis . Other iudgement he tooke not vpon him , as he that protested alwaies , that Spiritual causes , and controursies of Doctrine could not better be decided , then by Bishoppes . For whiche saieinge , S. Ambrose praised him . So that we are sure of Theodosius , that he neuer meante to intermedle with Ecclesiastical maters , * * Thus the Emperour is becom the Bishoppes man . otherwise then to execute the Bishoppes Decrees .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , yee saie , it is a woonder , to see , howe these menne abuse the Ecclesiastical stories . It was a Priuate Councel , yee saie , whereat Theodosius was present , and not a General : As if this poore healpe were sufficiente , to salue the mater : or , as if a Priuate Councel , were no Councel : Or , as if an Emperoure might sitte as a Iudge in priuate Councelles , but not in General . The storie in briefe is this , Theodosius the Emperoure , Theodosius Iudgeth Ecclestical causes . the better to bringe his Churches into Vnitie , Commaunded an Assemblie of the Bishoppes , and beste Learned , to appeare before him , and eche parte to write a seueral Confession of his Faithe , that he him selfe might Iudge bitweene them , whiche Faithe were the beste . Hauing receiued theire writinges , he willed Publique Praiers to be made , Sozomen li. 7. ca. 12. and also bothe openly , & priuately praied him selfe , that it might please God , Socrat. li. 5. ca. 10. to assiste him with his Holy Sprite , and to make him hable to Iudge iustely .

Then he perused , and considered eche Confession a sunder by it selfe : allowed onely the Catholiques : and Condemned the Confessions , that were written by the Arians , and Eunomians , and tare them in peeces . This is the true reporte of the storie , M. Hardinge . Whatsoeuer yee haue added hereunto , as your manner is , it is your owne . Nowe , whether the Emperoure Theodosius tooke vpon him , to Heare , and Determine Ecclesiastical Causes of Religion . or no , I reporte me to your owne indifferente iudgemente .

But yee wil saie , The Emperoure presumed not , to Iudge any thinge of him selfe : but was wholy ruled by the Bishoppes , as the executoure of their willes . And hereof , yee saie , yee are wel assured . Thus by your handlinge , yee make the Prince onely your Bishops man : to strike blindely , whomsoeuer your Bishop shal Commaunde : to Condemne , to Depriue , to Spoile , to Kille his owne Subiectes : not of any Iudgemente , or Knowledge , but onely vpon the doubteful Credit , and at the pleasure of your Bishop . So simple yee make this Godly Emperoure in his dealing . He willed the Congregation to praie : He praied him selfe , that God would directe him with his Sprite , and geeue him wisedome , to discerne the Truthe : He Conferred the Confessions : He weighed eche Reason : He allowed one side for true and godly : Al the reste he Condemned for false , and wicked . And yet , ye saie , yee are sure of Theodosius , that he intended not to Iudge , whether of al these Sectes were the truer . And so , by youre discretion , he bothe Allowed , and Condemned withoute Iudgemente , he knewe not , what .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 1.

In the Councel of Chalcedon a Ciuile Magistrate Condemned for Heretiques , by the Sentence of his owne mouthe , the Bishoppes , Dioscorus , Iuuenal , & Thalassius , and gaue Iudgemente , to put them downe from theire Dignities in the Churche .

M. Hardinge .

Where true , and good mater wanteth , for defence of this cause , these menne care not what thei bringe , so they make a shewe of some Learning , to deceiue the vnlearned . Firste , for condemnation of Heretiques , by sentence of a Ciuil Magistrate , they alleage the name of the long Councel of Chalcedon , not shewing in what Action or parte thereof it maie be founde . True it is , that al these three are named in that Councel , Dioscorus , Iuuenalis , and Thalassius . * * Vntruthe enclosed , standing in ignorance . For if M. Hard. had read the Councel , he might haue sounde it . But that al three were condemned , wee finde not . Mutche lesse , that were condemned by any Ciuil Magistrate , doo we finde . The condemnation of Dioscorus Archebishop of Alexandria , was pronounced by the Legates of the Pope of Rome , in forme as foloweth .

Paschasinus , Actio . 3. hauinge asked the consent of the Fathers present in the Councel to the condemnation of Dioscorus , after his faultes rehearsed , with his two felowes Lucentius Bishop of Tusculum , and Bonifacius Prieste of the greate Churche of Rome , saide : The moste holy , and blessed Archebishop of the great , and elder Rome Leo , by vs , and by this present holy Synode , with the thrise moste blessed and worthy of al praise , Peter the Apostle , ‡ ‡ This was spoken euen like the Popes Legate . For S. Paule saithe , Christe was the Rocke , &c. who is the rocke and ‡ highest toppe of the Catholique Churche , and who is the ‡ foundation of the right Faithe , hath depriued Dioscorus , as wel of the dignitie of his Bishoprike , Dioscorus , Iuuenasis , Thalassius . as also of his Priestly ministerie . This was the sentence pronounced by the Popes Legates , in the name of the Bishop of Rome , vnder the Authoritie of Peter . Whiche sentence the whole Councel allowed . This beinge true , howe did the Ciuil Magistrate condemne Dioscorus ? Was then the Bishop of Lilybaeum , or the Pope , in whose name he gaue sentence , a Ciuil Magistrate ? * * This is the patience of M Hardinges Sprite . When he shal reade the Councel , and see his owne erroure , he wil be colder . What is impudencie , what is licentious lieinge , what is deceitful dealinge , if this be not ?

Of Iuuenalis Archibishop of Hierusalem , and Thalassius Archebishop of Caesaria in Cappadocia , thus mutche I saie . They might wel haue a rebuke for misusinge them selues in the seconde Councel at Ephesus , Actio . 1. ex noua translat . where they sate , like Iudges , ‡ ‡ Vntruth , vaine and childishe . For then there belonged no sutch Authoritie to the See of Rome . without authoritie of thee See of Rome ( whiche , as Lucentius saide in the Synode of Chalcedon , was neuer orderly donne , neither was it lauful to be donne ) they might , I saie , take a rebuke for so presuming besides the Popes authoritie : but for as mutche as they * * Vntruthe , shamelesse aboue measure . For thei neuer asked pardonne , for sitting without the Popes Authoritie . mainteined not thiere fact , but among other Bishoppes of the Eastcried out . Omnes peccauimus , Omnes veniam postulamus : Wee haue al sinned , Wee al beseche pardonne : Yea for as mutche as Iuuenalis reiected the faulte vpon Elpidius , who did not commaunde Eusebius the accuser of Eutyches to comme in , and Thalassius saide , he was not cause thereof : it maie wel be , they were pardonned , although the honorable Iudges , and Senate saide vnto them : In Iudicio Fidei non est defensio : In a Iudgement of Faithe , this is no excuse . But in case they were deposed , ‡ ‡ M. Harding is wel assured , before he knowe . then are we sure , * * Manifeste vntruthe Reade the Answeare . it was not donne by the Ciuil Magistrates otherwise , then that they might allowe , and execute the sentence of Deposition before geeuen .

The B. of Sarisburie .

If the Councel of Chalcedon seeme ouer longe , with better reading yee maie make it shorter . That Dioscorus , Iuuenalis , and Thalassius were al three condemned in that Councel , that , yee saie , yee finde not . Howe be it , if ●ee had sought it better , yee might soone haue founde it . One of your owne Frendes of Louaine saithe , that herein yee were toomutche ouerseene . The very woordes , truely recorded in the Councel , are these : Videtur nobis iustum esse , eidem poenae Dioscorum Reuerendum Episcopum Alexandriae , C●pus . Dialo. 1. pag. 28. & Iuuenalem Reuerendum Episcopum Hierosolymorum , & Thalassium Reuerendum Episcopum Caesariae Cappadociae subiacere : Concil. Chalice . Act. 1. pag. 831. & à Sancto Concilio , secundum Regulas , ab Episcopali dignitate fieri alienos : Vnto vs it seemeth right , that Dioscorus , the Reuerende Bishop of Alexandria , and Iuuenalis , the Reuerende Bishop of Hierusalem , and Thalassius , the Reuerende Bishop of Caesaria in Cappadocia , shoulde be put to the same pounishemente : and by the holy Councel , accordinge to the Canons , shoulde be remoued from their Episcopal dignities . Euagrius . li. 2. cap. 4. The which woordes yee might also haue founde fully reported in Euagrius .

Likewise also saithe Pope Leo , touchinge the same : De nominibus Dioscori , Iuuenalis , Leo Epist. 40. Ad Anatolium . & Eustachij ( vel potiùs , Thalassij ) ad Sacrum Altare non recitandis , dilectionem tuam hoc decet custodire : Touchinge the names of Dioscorus , Iuuenalis , and Eustachius ( or rather , Thalassius ) not to be rehearsed at the Holy Aultar ( whiche was the Communion Table ) yee must keepe this order .

But yee saie , Notwithstanding these Bishoppes were condemned in the Councel , yet the Ciuile or Laie Iudges condemned them not . For they were there ( ye saie ) onely to see good order , and to keepe peace . This , M. Hardinge , is your owne onely idle gheaste , without any manner further Authoritie , onely grounded vpon your selfe . Certainely , the woordes of the Councel be plaine : Gloriosissimi Iudices , & amplissimus Senatus dixerunt : The moste Noble Iudges , and moste woorthy Senate saide . Likewise saithe Euagrius , Concil. chalce . Actio . 1. Euag. li. 2. ca. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : The Lordes of the Emperours Councel decreed these thinges .

Neither were the Ciuile Iudges then so scrupulous , to thinke , thei might not deale in Cases of Religion , as it maie wel appeare by theire woordes . For thus they saie : Gloriosissimi sudices , & Amplissimus Senatus dixerunt . De Recta , & Catholica Fide , Concil. Chalce . Act. pag. 831 perfectiùs sequenti die , conuenienti Concilio , diligentiorem Examinationem fieri opottere , perspicimus : Dioscorus , Iuuenalis , Thalassius . The moste Noble Iudges , and moste woorthy Senate saide , Wee see , that , touchinge the Right Catholique Faithe , the nexte daie , when the Councel shal meete , there muste be had a more diligente Examinatione .

And when the maters were concluded , and published , the Bishoppes of the East brake out into fauourable shootes , in this sorte : Iustum , & Rectum Iudicium Vita longa Senatui : Multi anni Imperatori : Iuste , and Righte is this Iudgemente : Longe life vnto the Senate : Many yeeres vnto the Emperoure . For in al cases , as wel Ecclesiastical , as Temporal , the Emperoure was Iudge ouer al. What so euer the Councel had determined , without the Emperoures consent , it had no force . And therefore bothe the Bishoppes , and other Temporal Iudges in the Councel , vsed oftentimes to suspende , & to staie their Decrees in this sorte : Videtur nobis iustum , Concil Chalced. Actio . 1. pag. 831. Euag●i . li. 2. ca. 4. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . si placuerit Diuinissimo , & Pijssimo Domino nostro : Vnto vs it seemeth right , if it shal also like our moste vertuous , and moste Godly Lorde ( the Emperoure ) . In the ende , thei conclude thus : Omnibus , quae acta sunt , ad Sacrum Apicem referendis : So that al our dooinges be remitted to the Emperoures Maiestie . Al whiche woordes are borowed , as the recte , out of the Ecclesiastical storie of Euagrius .

Yee saie , luuenalis , and Thalassius might wel haue a rebuke , for sittinge like Iudges in the Seconde Councel of Ephesus , without Authoritie of the Pope . O M. Harding , either yee are mutche deceiued , and prefume to speake before yee knowe , whiche were great folie : or els yee speake directely against your knowledge , & Conscience , and willingely seeke to deceiue others : whiche were greate wickednesse . Verily , ye might easily haue knowen , that these three Bishoppes were condemned , not for intruding vpon the Popes authoritie , as ye haue imagined , but onely for Condemninge other Godly Bishoppes , wickedly , and without cause . The woordes of the Councel are plaine : Gloriosissimi Iudices dixerunt , Vos quidem primitùs docuistis , quia per vim , Concil. Chalcedonen. Action . 1. & necessitatem , in pura Charta Coacti estis subscribere ad damnationem Sanctae memoriae Flauiani . Orientales , & , qui cum ipsis erant . Reuerendissimi Episcopi , clamauerunt , Omnes peccauimus : Omnes veniam postulamus : The moste Nolse Iud 〈◊〉 lande , yee haue here proued before vs , that yee were driuen by force , and violence , in a ●●anke paper to subscribe your names to the Condemnation of Flauianus of godly memorie . The Bishoppes of the Easte , and other Reuerende Bishoppes , that were with them , cried out , We haue al offended : We al desire pardonne . This in dede was theire faulte , M. Hardinge : Al that you imagine of vsurpinge the Popes Authoritie , is but a fansie . For the Popes Huge , and Vniuersal Authoritie , whereby nowe he clamen●a the whole Iurisdiction of al the worlde , at that time was not knowen .

The same Councel of Chalcedon maketh him Equal in Authoritie , and Dignitie with the Bishop of Constantinople . Concil. Chalced. 〈…〉 The woordes be these : Sedi Senioris Romae , propter Imperium Ciuitatis illius , Patres consequenter Priuilegia reddiderunt . Et cadem intentione permoti Centum quinquaginta Deo amantissimi Episcopi , aequa Sanctissimae Sedi Nouae Romae Priuilegia tribuerunt : rationabiliter iudicantes , Imperio , & Senatu Vrbem Ornatam , aequis Senioris Regiae Romae Priuiulegijs frui , & in Ecclesiasticis , sicut illa , Maiestatem habere negotijs : Vnto the See of the Olde Rome , in consideration of the Empiere of that Cittie , Our Fathers haue accordingly geeuen Priuileges . And vpon like consideration , the hundred and fiftie godly Bishoppes haue geeuen equal , and like Priuileges to the Cittie of Newe Rome : ( whereby is meante the Cittie of Constantinople ) : For that thei thought it reasonable , that the same Cittie of Constantinople , being nowe adourned with Empiere and Senate , shoulde also also haue Priuileges , Equal with Rome the Elder : and haue the same Maiestie , and Authoritie in Ecclesiastical affaires , that Rome hathe .

Thus , yee see , your Pope had not then a Power Peerelesse ouer al the Worlde : but was made Like , and Euen , and Equal in al respectes to one of his Brethren . Therefore , if the Bishop of Rome were the Heade of the Churche , then was the Bishop of Constantinople likewise the Heade of the Churche . And if the Bishop of Romes Power were Vniuersal , then was the Bishop of Constantinoples Power Vniuersal , as wel as his . For the Councel alloweth as mutche Ecclesiastical Authoritie to the one Bishop , as to the other .

Nowe , shortely to consider the whole substance of your talke , Firste , yee saie , These three Bishoppes , Dioscorus , Iuuenalis , and Thalassius were neuer condemned in the Councel of Chalcedon : This , yée sée , is One Vntruthe . Secondely , yée saie , The Ciuile Magistrate neuer condemned them . This is an Other Vntruthe . Thirdely , yée saie , Iuuenalis , and Thalassius were rebuked for sitting as Iudges in Councel without the Popes Authoritie . These are twoo other Vntruthes . For neither had the Pope any sutche Prerogatiue at that time , nor was this the Cause of theire Condemnation . And yet , as if ye woulde renne vs ouer with terroure of woordes , yée crie out with a courrage , what is Impudencie , what is Licenceous Lieing , what is deceitful dealinge , if this be not ?

Touchinge these firy termes , M. Hardinge , I dare not Answeare you . But , as for Plaine lieinge , without a difference , if ye knowe not , what it is , looke through your owne Bookes : & ye cannot faile of it . Verily , it is , to publishe Vntruthes so largely , & so liberally , as you haue donne , onely vpon affiance of the simplicitie , & ignorance of your Reader , without regarde , or feare , of God , or Man .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 2.

In the Chirde Councel at Constantinople , Constantine a Ciuile Magistrate , did not onely sitte amongest the Bishoppes , but did also Subscribe with them . For , saithe he , We haue bothe readde , & Subscribed .

M. Hardinge .

The subscribing is not the matter , but the iudginge . Constantine subscribed to the Councel , as now al Christen Princes , beinge required , ought to subscribe to the Tridentine Councel . * * A Vaine Distinction . But Constantine vsed not this stile , when he subscribed , Definiens subscripsi , I haue subscribed with geuing definittiue sentence . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe manifeste . Reade the Answeare . For so to subscribe , it apperteined onely to Bishops .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 3.

In the Seconde Councel called Arausi canum , the Princes Embassadours , beinge Noble Men borne , not onely spake their minde , touchinge Religion , but sette to theire handes also , as wel as the Bishoppes . For thus it is written in the later ende of that Councel : Petrus , Marcellinus , Felix , and Liberius , being Most Noble Men , and famous Lieurenantes , & Captaines of Fraunce , & also Peeres of the Realme , haue geuen their consent , and ser to their handes . Further , Syagrius , Opilio , Pantagathus , Deodatus , Cariattho , and Marcellus , menne of very greate honoure , haue Subscribed .

M. Hardinge .

what if al the laiemen of the worlde had subscribed by the worde of consenting , or agreeing to the Bishops decrees , eche one writinge thus , as in that case , the olde manner was , consentiens subscripsi ? What other thinge is proued thereby , then that they thought it necessarie to allowe that , whiche Bishops had determined ? The Temporal Magistrate Subscribeth in coucel . Whiche we wish ye woulde do .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 4.

If it be so then , that Lieutenantes , Chiefe Captaines , and Peeres haue had Authoritie to Subscribe in councel , haue not Emperours , and Kinges the like Authoritie

M. Hardinge .

Kinges , and Quenes , not onely might , but ought to subscribe , when they are required .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here , M. Hardinge , yée are driuen to many shiftes . Somme of you saie , that Princes Embassadours , & Ciuile Magistrates had no right to Subscribe in Councel , but onely by licence , & sufferance of the Bishoppes . Somme others haue found out a certaine difference in Subscriptions . The Bishop , yée saie , Subscribed in one Fourme , & the Ciuile Magistrate in an other : The Bishop thus , Definiens Subscripsi , By geuing my Definitiue Sentence , I haue Subscribed : The Laie Magistrate thus , Consentiens Subscripsi , Geuinge Consente hereto , I haue Subscribed . Thus haue you found out a knotte in a russhe : & diuised a Diuersitie without a Difference . Certainely in the Olde councelles there appeareth onely one Fourme of Subscriptions , & no moe . And afterwarde these Two Woordes , Definiens , and Consenriens , wherein you imagine so greate a difference , were vsed indifferently , as wel of Bishoppes , Consentiens Subscripsi . Conci . Chalced. Actio . 1. Pa. 780. Conc. Parisien . 1. as of others : as eche man was best affected . Sommetime the Bishop Subscribed , Consentiens : Sommetime the Laieman Subscribed , Definiens , without seruple . In the Councel of Chalcedon it is written thus , Ego Dorotheus Episcopus Consensi , & Subscripsi : I Bishop Dorothee haue Consented , & Subscribed . Likewise it is written in the Councel of Parise , Ego Probianus Episcopus Bituricensis consensi , & Subscripsi : I Probiane the Bishop of Bourges haue Consented , Marius Victorinus Contra Arianos , Lib. 2. Definiens Subscripsi . Euag. Li. 2. Ca. 4. Sozom li. 4. ca. 16 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Aeneas Syluiut de Gestis Concil. Constantien . li. 1. and Subscribed . Marius Victorinus saithe , Nicenae Fidei multa Episcoporum milia Consenserunt : Many thousande Bishoppes Consented vnto the Nicene Faithe .

Of the other side , the Laie Prince in Councel hath had Authoritie , not onely to Consente , and agrée vnto others , but also to Define , and Determine , and that in Cases of Religion , as by many euidente Examples it maie appeare . Euagrius saithe , as it is before alleged , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : They , that were of the Senate , or the Lordes of the Councel , Determined these thinges . Sozomenus saithe , Imperator Constantinus iussit decem Episcopos Orientis , & totidem Occidentis , quos Synodus designasser , ad Aulam suam venire , & sibi exponere Decreta Concilij : vt ipse quoqque consideraret , an secundum Scripturas inter se conuenissent : & de rebus agendis , quae optima viderentur , Determinaret : The Emperour Constantine commaunded , that tenne Bishoppes of the Easte , and tenne of the Weaste , chosen by the Councel , shoulde repaire to his Courte , and open vnto him the Decrees of the Councel : that his Maiestie might consider , whether they were agreed accordinge to the Scriptures : and that he might further , ( not onely Consente , or agrée , but also ) Determine , and Conclude , what were beste to be donne . Aeneas Syluius , whiche afterwarde was Pope Pius . 2. saithe thus : Visum est Spiritui Sancto , & nobis : vnde apparet , alios , quàm Episcopos , in Concilijs habuisse vocem Decidentem : It seemeth good to the Holy Ghoste , and to vs . Hereby it appeareth , that somme other , biside Bishoppes , had a voice Definitiue in Councelles . And againe he saithe , Nec ego cuiusuis Episcopi mendacium , Eodem Loco . quamuis ditissimi , Veritati praeponam Pauperis Presbyteri . Nec dedignari debet Episcopus , si aliquando ignarus , & rudis , sequacem non habeat multitudinem : Neither w●l I sette more by any Bishoppes lie , be he neuer so riche , then I woulde sette by any Priestes Truthe , be he neuer so poore . Neither more the ignorante , and vnlearned Bishop disdeigne , if he see the people va willinge to folowe him .

Gerson saith , Iudicium , & Conclusio Fidei , licet Authoritatiue spectent ad Praelatos , & Doctores , spectare tamen possunt ad alios , quàm Theologos Deliberatio , sicut & Cognitio super his , quae Fidem respiciunt . Ita , vt ad Laicos etiam hoc possit extendi : Gerson , Quae veritates sint credendae . & plùs aliquando , quàm ad multos Clericorum : Notwithstandinge the Iudgemente , and Conclusion of Faithe belonge by Authoritie vnto Bishoppes , and Doctours , yet as wel the Deliberation hereof , as also the knowledge , and Iudgemente , concerninge maters , that touche the Faithe , maie belonge vnto others too bisides the Diuines , or Doctoures , and Professours of Diuinitie . Yea , it more sommetimes be extended euen vnto the Laiemenne : And more sommetimes vnto them , then vnto many Priestes .

The Emperoure Iustinian in Ecclesiastical Causes , oftentimes vseth these woordes , Authen Collaet . Tit. 6. Quomodo opor . Episcop. Definimus , Mandamus , lubemus , &c. Wee Determine , wee Conclude , wee Commaunde , wee Bidde . Touchinge Bishoppes , he writeth thus , Definimus , vt nullus Deo amabilium Episcoporum foris a sua Ecclesia , plus quàm per totum annum abesse audeat : Wee Define , or Determine , that none of the Godly Bishoppes shal dare to be absent from his Church , more then by the space of one whole yeere . Here , yée sée , the Temporal Prince , in an Ecclesiastical Cause saithe , Definimus . To be shorte , Pope Nicolas him selfe saithe , writinge vnto the Emperoure Michael , Vbinam legistis , Dis 96. Vbinam . Imperatores Antecessores vestros Synodalibus Contentionibus interfuisse ? Nisi fortè in quibusdam , vbi de Fide tractatum est : quae Vniuersalis est : quae omnium Communis est : quae non solùm ad Clericos , verùm etiam ad Laicos , & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos : Where haue you readde , that your Predecessours , being Emperours , were euer Present at our Disputations in Councelles ? Onlesse happily it were in certaine cases , whereas mater was moued touchinge the Faithe . For Faithe is Vniuersal , and Common to al : and perteineth not onely vnto Priestes , but also vnto Laiemen : and generally , and thorowly to al Christians Thus yée see , M. Hardinge , by the Popes owne Iudgemente , that Cases , and Disputations of the Faithe , belonge as wel to the Temporal Prince , as to the Pope .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 5.

Truely , there had benne no neede to handle so plaine a mater , as this is , with so many woordes , & so at lengthe , if wee had not to doo with those menne , who for a desire they haue to striue , and to winne the maisterie , vse of course to denie al thinges , be thei neuer so cleare , yea , the very same , whiche they presently see , and beholde with theire owne eies .

M. Hardinge .

The matter , ye speake of , is so cleare , that from the beginninge of the worlde to this daie , * * Vntruthe euident , as by sundrie examples i● shal appeare . no secular Prince can be named , who by the ordinary power of a Prince , without the gifte of prophecie , or special reuelation , did laudably intermeddle with Religion , as a iudge and ruler of spiritual causes . The reason thereof is cleare . Religion is an order of Diuine worshippinge , belonginge to God onely : whereupon no man hath power , but he that is called thereto by God . He is called in the iudgemente of men , who can shewe his callinge outwardly , as by consecration , and imposition of handes . Priestes and Bishops are called to be the dispensatours of the mysteries of God . Mat. 16. & 18. In that consecration the keies of knowledge , and discretion , the power of blindinge and loosinge is geuen . ‡ ‡ O Vaine mao . What pertein● these keies to General Councelles ? For by them euery poore Prieste hath as good right in Councel , as the Pope . If a secular Prince can not shewe the keies geuen to him , howe dareth he aduenture to breake vp rather then to open the clasped booke of God , The Prince maie deale in Ecclesiastical Causes . the dore of the Churche , and the gates of the Kingedome of heauen ? Wherefore S. Ambrose saide vnto Valentinian . Quando audiuisti , Imperator , in causa Fidei Laicos de Episcopo iudicasse ? Li. 5. epis . 32 When haste thou hearde , Emperoure , Laymen to haue ben iudges of a Bishop in the cause of Faithe ? And yet nowe these menne thinke , that whiche S. Ambrose neuer hearde of , not onely to haue ben vsed continually the firste fiue hundred yeres after Christes birthe , but also to be as cleare a matter , as if we behelde it with our eies .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Temporal Prince , yée saie , hath not the Keies of the Kingdome of Heauen : Ergo , he maie not iudge in Ecclesiastical Causes , nor geeue Definitiue Sentence in General Councel . This is a very sely poore Argumente , M. Hardinge , as hereafter it shal appeare . But S. Ambrose saithe vnto the Emperoure Valentinian : When did your Maiestie euer heare , that in a Cause of Faithe , a Laiemenne were Iudges ouer Bishoppes ? Here , M. Hardinge , by the waie , S. Amrbose géeueth you to vnderstande , that onlesse it be in a Cause of Faithe , a Laieman maie be Iudge ouer a Bishop : whiche thinge is contrarie , Parte 6. Cap. 9. Diui. 2. not onely to your Former Doctrine , but also to the whole course , and practise of your Churche of Rome .

Howe be it , touchinge the meaning of these woordes , it behoueth vs to knowe , Firste the cause , wherefore S. Ambrose so shunned , and fledde the Emperours Iudgemente : Nexte , before what Iudges he desired to be tried .

First , the Emperoure Valentinian , at that time , was very yonge , as wel in Age , as also in Faithe : He was not yet Baptized : He knewe not the Principles of Christes Religion : Ambros . Lib. 5. Epist. 33. Mandatur denique , Trade Basilicam . Allegatur , Imperatori licere omnia . He was an Arian Heretique , and beleued not the Godhedde of Christe , but bent al his studie , and power to mainteine the Arians : He woulde haue thruste out the Christianes , & woulde haue possessed the Heretiques in theire Churches : and to that ende had raised his Power , and filled Millaine ful of Souldiers : He saide , It was lawful for him , to doo , what him listed . Briefely , his whole dealinge was ful of force , & violence , sutche as hath benne séene in somme Countries , not many yéeres sithence .

In consideration hereof , Ambros . Li 5. Epist 32. Ad Valentinian . Lib. 5. Epist. 33. S. Ambrose woorthily refused him to be his Iudge . And therefore he saide vnto him , Tolle Legem , si vis esse Cerramen : Take awaie the rigoure of your Lawe , if ye wil haue the mater tried by Disputation . Againe , Noli te grauare , Imperator , vt putes te in ea , quae Diuina sunt , Imperiale aliquod ius habere : Noli te extollere : Esto Deo subiectus . Scriptum est , quae Dei , Deo : quae Caesaris , Caesari : O my Lorde , trouble not your selfe , to thinke , you haue any Princely Power ouer those thinges , that perteine to God . Vaunte not your selfe : be subiecte vnto God . It is written , Geue vnto God , that belongeth vnto God : Geue vnto Caesar , that belongeth vnto Caesar .

But , as S. Ambrose saithe , The Emperoure hathe no Power ouer Goddes causes , so maie wee likewise , and as truely saie , The Pope hathe no Power ouer Goddes causes . S. Chrysostome saithe , Siquidem est in Causa Fidei , fuge illum , & euita : Chrysost. ad Hebrae . Homil. 34. non solùm si homo fuerit , verùm etiam si Angelus de Coelo descenderit : If it be a Mater of Faith , ( wherein he séeketh to abuse thée ) flee him , and shunne him : not onely , if he be a man , but also if an Angel should comme down from Heauen . Thus it appeareth , S. Ambrose refused not the Emperours Power , and Authoritie of Iudgemente in Cases Ecclesiastical , but onely his wilful Ignorance , & his Tyrannie : For that he knewe , Ambros . Lib. 5. Epist. 32. Dicentes , de Pide in Ecclesia coram populo debere trae●tari . his Iudgemente was corrupted , and not indifferente .

And for that cause he saithe , Venissem , Imperator , ad Consistorium Clementiae tuae , &c. O my Lorde , I woulde haue made mine appearance at your Consistorie , to haue vttered these thinges in your Presence , if either the Bishoppes , or the People woulde haue suffered me . For thei tolde me , that Maters of Faith ought to be disputed in the Churche openly before the people . Againe he saithe , Veniant sanè , si qui sunt , in Ecclesiam : Audiant cum Populo : non , vt quisquam resideat Iudex , sed vt vnusquisque de suo affectu habeat examen , & eligat , quem sequatur : Let them hardely comme to the Churche : let them hearken togeather with the People : not that any man should sitte as Iudge : but that euery man mai after his own minde examine the mater , & so chuse , whom he maie folow . Of sutche Tyrannie in Councelles Athanasius likewise complaineth : In Eadem Episto . Athanas . Apolo . 2. Poteramus . Quo iure contra nos Synodum vllam constituere potuerunt ? Aut qua fronte talem Conuentum Synodum appellare audent , cui Comes Praesedit ? Vbi Spiculator apparebat ? Vbi Commentariensis , siue Carcerarius pro Diaconis Ecclesiae aduentantes introducebat ? Comes imperio vtebatur : Nos à Militibus ducebamur : By what Lawe coulde they keepe a Councel againste vs ? Or with what face coulde they calle sutche an Assemblie by the name of a Councel ? Where as the Lorde Lieutenante was Presidente ? Where the Hangeman was Apparitoure ? Where the Iailer presented the suiters in steede of the Deacons of the Churche ? The Lieutenante did al thinges by Authoritie and Commaundement : Wee were taken by the Souldiers , and carried to Prison .

Therefore he saithe , Fiat Ecclesiastica Synodus longè à Palatio : vbi nec Imperator praesto est : Athanas . Ad Solitariam vitam agentes . Has Literas . nec comes se ingerit : nec Iudex minatur : & vbi Solus Timor Dei ad omnia sufficit , &c. Let there be made an Ecclesiastical Synode , far from the Emperours Palaice : where as neither the Emperoure is Present : nor the Lieutenante thrusteth in him selfe : nor the Iudge with his threates maketh menne afraide : but where as the feare of God to al pourposes is sufficiente . For this cause S. Ambrose refused to be tried by the Emperoure Valentinian : That is to saie , as then it was , by a rasshe yong man : by a man Vnbaptized , and therefore no Christian : by a Tyranne : and by an Arian Heretique , that vtterly denied the Godhedde of Christe .

Otherwise Athanasius him selfe was wel contented to committe his whole cause vnto the Emperoure . For thus he saithe , Postulamus , causam istam Pientissimo Imperatori reseruari : Athanas . Apol. 2. Cùm multas . apud quem licebit , & iura Ecclesiae , & nostra proponere . Planè enim confidimus , eius Pietatem , cognitis nostris rationibus , nequaquam nos coudemnaturam esse : Wee require , that the Emperoures moste godly , and moste Religious Maiestie maie haue the hearinge of the same mater : Before whom we maie open bothe our Churches Right , and also our owne . For wee haue good hope , that his Godlinesse , vnderstandinge our Reasons , wil neuer condemne vs .

Likewise S. Augustine saithe vnto the Donatian Hereriques , An fortè de Religione fas non est , Augusti . contra Epist. Parme●iani . Lib. 1. vt dicat Imperator , vel quos miserit Imperator ? Our ergo ad Imperatorem vestri venere legati ? Cur eum fecerunt Causae suae Iudicem ? Is it not lawful , for the Emperoure , or his Deputee , to geue Sentence in a mater of Religion ? Wherefore then went your Embassadours to the Emperoure ? Why made they him the Iudge of their cause ?

Thus , M. Hardinge , it appeareth , that you , in defraudinge Emperours , and Kinges of theire Emperial , and Princely Right , are faine to take parte with the Donatian Heretiques .

As for vs , wée claime no other right in Ecclesiastical Causes vnto our Christian Princes this daie , then that maie wel appeare , hathe benne iustely vsed , bothe by Constantinus the Emperoure , and also by other Catholique , and Godly Princes .

The Emperoure Theodosius wrote thus vnto the Councel of Chalcedon : Quoniam scimus , Liberatus . Ca. 1● . Magnificentissimum Florentium Patritium esse Fidelem , & probatum in Recta Fide , volumus eum interesse audientiae Synodi : quoniam sermo de Fide est : For that wee knowe , the moste Noble Florentius to be faitheful , and wel approued in the Right Faithe , therefore wee wil , that he be presente at the hearing , and debatinge of Cases in the Councel : for as mutche as the Disputation is of the Faithe .

For Pope Nicolas himselfe saithe , as it is alleged before , Fides Vniuersalis est : Fides omnium Communis est : Fides non solùm ad Clericos , verùm etiam ad Laicos , Dis. 96. Vbinam . & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos : * * Hespeaketh of questions of Faith moued in Councelles . Faithe is Vniuersal : Faithe is common to al : Faithe perteineth , not onely vnto Priestes , but also vnto Laiemenne , and generally to al Christians .

As touching the Pope , and his Vniuersalitie of Power , in , and ouer al Councelles of Bishoppes , wée maie rightly saie , as Athanasius saithe of Constantius the Arian Emperoure , Obtendit in speciem Episcoporum Iudicium : sed interim facit , Athanas . Ad Solitariam Vitam agentes . quod ipsi libet . Quid opus est Hominibus Titulo Episcopis ? He maketh a shew of Iudgementes , or Determinations of Bishoppes : In the meane while he doothe , what he listeth him selfe . What are wee the neare for these menne , that beare onely the name of Bishoppes ? Sutche commonly be the Popes Prelates . What so euer Learninge they haue bisides , Diuinitie is commonly the least parte of theire studie . And therefore , when they are assembled in Councel , they maie wel iudge by Authoritie , but not by Learninge .

Verily , Luitprandus . Luitprandus saithe , Imperator , vti experientia didicimus , intelligit negotia Dei , & facit , & amat ea : & tuetur omnibus viribus , & Ecclesiasticas res , & Ciuiles . Sed Iohannes Papa facit contra haec omnia : Wee see by experience , that the Emperoure vnderstandeth Goddes causes , Iohan. 13. and fauoureth , and perfourmeth the same : and with al his Power mainteineth bothe Ecclesiastical , and Temporal maters . But Pope Iohn dooth al the contrarie .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 6.

The Emperoure Iustinian made a Lawe to correcte the behaueour of the Cleregie , & to cutte shorte the insolente Iewdenesse of the Priestes . And , albeit hee were a Christian , and a Catholique Prince , yet putte hee downe from theire Papal Throne , twoo Popes , Syluerius , and Vigilius , notwithstandinge they were Peters Successours , and Christes Vicars .

M. Hardinge .

Iustinians lawe concerninge good order to be kepte amonge Pristes morally was good , and bound them by the force of reason . If he made any other Lawe touchinge matters of Religion , Pope Ioannes then beinge , approued it , or at the leste , Iustianian ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he did but conferre with the Pope , touching his Lawes . Touchinge the askinge of allowance , ther appeareth nothinge . asked approbation thereof , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he did but conferre with the Pope , touching his Lawes . Touchinge the askinge of allowance , ther appeareth nothinge . as it maie appeare in his owne Epistle , wherein he confesseth in the facte it selfe , that his Lawes could not binde in supernatural causes belonginge to faithe , except the heade of the Vniuersal Churche confirme them . Syluerius and Vigilius were deposed rather by Theodora the Emperesse , then by Iustinian the Emperoure . * * Vntruthe . For it was not tyrannie , but iuste Iudgemente . And Iustinian gaue Balisarius greate thankes for so dooinge . Ye do wronge to impute that wicked tyrannie vnto him . * * Vntruthe . For it was no tyrannie , but iuste Iudgemente . And Iustinian gaue Balisarius greate thankes for so dooinge . He is not to be burthened there with , onlesse the man be countable for his wiues iniquities .

Howe so euer it was , that extraordinary violence and tyrannie can not iustly be alleaged to the defence of your false assertion . Neither woulde your selfe haue mentioned the same , if ye coulde haue founde better matter . As hungrie Dogges eate durty puddinges , accordinge to the prouerbe , cleane yenough for sutche vncleane writers , so your fowle matters be defended by fowle factes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Iustinian , yée saie , might wel make somme Moral Lawe , to keepe Priestes , and Bishoppes in good order . Wherein neuerthelesse Pope Paule . 3. condemneth you vtterly : For thus he writeth , and reasoneth substantially against the Emperoure Charles the Fifthe : Ezechiel . 34. Paulus 3. in Epistola ad Carol . 5. Ecce ego super Pastores meos : Beholde , saithe Almighty God , I mee selfe wil ouersee my Sheepheardes : Ergo , saithe Pope Paulus , The Emperoure maie not deale with the manners of Priestes , and Bishoppes .

How be it , the Emperours made Lawes , Touchinge the Holy Trinitie : Touchinge the Faithe : Touchinge Baptisme : Touchinge the Holy Communion : Touchinge the Publique Praiers : Touchinge the Scriptures : Touchinge the keepinge of Holy daies : Touchinge Churches , & Chaples : Touchinge the Consecration of Bishoppes : Touchinge Non Residences : Touchinge Periurie , &c. It were mutche for you , M. Hardinge , to saie , as nowe yée woulde séeme to saie , Al these were Moral Lawes , Cod. De Sacrosanct . Ecclesijs . Omni innouaetione . and perteined onely to good order . But the Pope , yee saie , allowed the Emperours Ecclesiastical Lawes : Otherwise , of the Emperours owne Authoritie , they had no force . The truthe hereof , by the Particulares , maie soone appeare .

By one of the Emperours Lawes it is prouided , That the Bishop of Constantinople shal haue Equal Power , Liberatus , Ca. 13. Imperatoris Patrocinio . and Prerogatiue with the Bishop of Rome . This Lawe the Pope coulde neuer brooke . And yet that notwithstandinge , Liberatus saithe , It holdeth stil by the Emperours Authoritie , whether the Pope wil , or no : Cod. De Sacrosanct . Ecclesiis . Omni innouatione . Againe , it is prouided in the same Lawe , that the Churches of Illyricum , in their doubteful cases , shal appeale to Constantinople , & not to Rome :

The Emperoure Constantine saithe , If the Bishop moue trouble ( by Doctrine , or otherwise , ) by my hande he shal be pounished : For my hande is the hande of Goddes Minister : Theodoret. Li. 1. Cap. 20. Ministri Dei , hoc est , meae manis , coercebitur .

Iustinian the Emperoure in his Lawe commaundeth , That the Prieste , or Bishop in pronouncinge the Publique Praiers , and in the Ministration of the Sacramentes , lifte vp his voice , and speake alowde , that the people maie saie , Amen , and be sturred to more Deuotion : Againe , he saithe , as it is noted in the Glose vpon the Authentiques , Papa Temporalibus immiscere se non debet : Authen . Titul. 123. The Pope maie not intermeddle with Temporal Causes :

In the same Lawes , Authen . Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat Episcopos . the same Emperoure Iustinian saithe , Wee Commounde the moste Holy Archebishoppes , and Patriarkes , of Rome , of Constantinople , of Alexandria , of Antioche , and of Hierusalem : The same Emperoure Iustinian commaundeth , That al Monkes , Authen . Colla. 9. Titu . 15. De Sanctiss . Episcopis . Iubemus Beatissimos Archiepiscopos , Senioris Romae , &c. either be driuen to studie the Scriptures , or els be forced to Bodily Laboure : Carolus Magnus made a Lawe , That nothinge shoulde be readde openly in the Churche , sauinge onely the Canonical Bookes of the Holy Scriptures : And that the Faitheful People shoulde receiue the Holy Communion euery Sonnedaie . I leaue the rehearsal of infinite other like Examples .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , wil you saie , or maie wee beleue , that al these , and other like Lawes were allowed by the Pope ?

In déede your Gloser saithe , Authen . Tit. 133. Ansigisus Lib. 1. Cap. 19. Ad quid intromittit se Imperator de Spiritualibus , vel Ecclesiasticis , cùm sciat ad se non pertinere ? Wherefore doothe the Emperoure thus busie him selfe with these Spiritual , or Ecclesiastical maters , seeinge he knoweth , they are no parte of his Charge ? Carolus Magnus Lib. 6. Cap. 162. Authen . Colla. 1. Titu . 6. Quomodo oporteat . To so profounde a question , after a longe solemne studie , he diuiseth this answeare : Dic , quòd Authoritate Papae hoc facit : Scie thou , that he doothe it by the Popes Authoritie : And then the whole mater is discharged , and al is wel .

Notwithstandinge , somme likelihoode hereof yee would seeme to geather , euen out of Iustinians owne woordes . Gloss . in verbu● Sancimus . For thus he saithe vnto the Pope , although far otherwise , then you haue forced him to saie : Omnia , quae ad Ecclesiarum statum pertinent , approued in the Right Faithe , The Prince maie deale in Ecclesiastical Causes . therefore wee wil , that he be presente at the hearing , and debatinge of Cases in the Councel : for as mutche as the Disputation is of the Faithe .

For Pope Nicolas him selfe saithe , as it is alleged before , Fides Vniuersalis est : Fides omnium Communis est : Fides non solùm ad Clericos , verùm etiam ad Laicos , Dis. 96 Vbinam . & ad omnes omninò pertinet Christianos : * * He speaketh of questions of Faith moued in Councelles . Faithe is Vniuersal : Faithe is common to al : Faithe perteineth , not onely vnto Priestes , but also vnto Laiemenne , and generally to al Christians .

As touchinge the Pope , and his Vniuersalitie of Power , in , and ouer al Councelles of Bishoppes , wée maie rightly saie , as Athanasius saithe of Constantius the Arian Emperoure , Obtendit in speciem Episcoporum Iudicium : sed interim facit , quod ipsi libet . Quid opus est Hominibus Titulo Episcopis ? He maketh a shew of Iudgementes , Athanas . Ad Solitariam Vitam agentes . or Determinations of Bishoppes : In the meane while he doothe , what he listeth him selfe . What are wee the neare for these menne , that beare onely the name of Bishoppes ? Sutche commonly be the Popes Prelates . What so euer Learninge they haue bisides , Diuinitie is commonly the least parte of theire studie . And therefore , when they are assembled in Councel , they maie wel iudge by Authoritie , but not by Learninge .

Verily , Luitprandus . Luitprandus saithe , Imperator , vti experientia didicimus , intelligit negotia Dei , & facit , & amat ea : & tuetur omnibus viribus , & Ecclesiasticas res , & Ciuiles . Sed Iohannes Papa facit contra haec omnia : Wee see by experience , that the Emperoure vnderstandeth Goddes causes , Iohan. 13. and fauoureth , and perfourmeth the same : and with al his power mainteineth bothe Ecclesiastical , and Temporal maters . But Pope Iohn dooth al the contrarie .

The Apologie , Cap. 14. Diuision . 6.

The Emperoure Iustinian made a Lawe to correcte the behaueour of the Cleregie , & to cutte shorte the insolente lewdenesse of the Priestes . And , albeit hee were a Christian , and a Catholique Prince , yet putte hee downe from theire Papal Throne , twoo Popes , Syluerius , and Vigilius , notwithstandinge they were Peters Successours , and Christes Vicars .

M. Hardinge .

Iustinians lawe concerninge good order to be kepte amonge Priestes morally was good , and bound them by the force of reason . If he made any other Lawe touchinge matters of Religion , Pope Ioannes then beinge , approued it , or at the leste , Iustinian ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he did but conferre with the Pope , touching his Lawes . Touchinge the askinge of allowance , ther appeareth nothinge . asked approbation thereof , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For he did but conferre with the Pope , touching his Lawes . Touchinge the askinge of allowance , ther appeareth nothinge . as it maie appeare in his owne Epistle , wherein he confesseth in the facte it selfe , that his Lawes coulde not binde in supernatural causes belonginge to faithe , except the heade of the Vniuersal Churche confirme them . Syluerius and Vigilius were deposed rather by Theodora the Emperesse , then by Iustinian the Emperoure . * * Vntruthe . For it was no tyrannie , but iuste Iudgement . And Iustinian gaue Belisarius greate thankes for so dooinge . Ye do wronge to impute that wicked tyrannie vnto him . * * Vntruthe . For it was no tyrannie , but iuste Iudgement . And Iustinian gaue Belisarius greate thankes for so dooinge . He is not to be burthened there with , onlesse the man be countable for his wiues iniquities .

Howe so euer it was , that extraordinary violence and tyrannie can not iustly be alleaged to the defence of your false assertion . Neither woulde your selfe haue mentioned the same , if ye coulde haue founde better matter . As hungrie Dogges eate durty puddinges , accordinge to the prouerbe , cleane yenough for sutche vncleane writers , so your fowle matters be defended by fowle factes .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Iustinian , The Prince maie deale in Ecclesiastical causes . yée saie , might wel make somme Moral Lawe , to keepe Priestes , and Bishoppes in good order . Wherein neuerthelesse Pope Paule . 3. condemneth you vtterly : For thus he writeth , and reasoneth substantially against the Emperoure Charles the Fifthe : Ezechiel . 34. Paulus 3. in Epistola ad Carol . 5. Ecce ego super Pastores meos : Beholde , saithe Almighty God , I mee selfe wil ouersee my Sheepheardes : Ergo , saithe Pope Paulus , The Emperoure maie not deale with the manners of Priestes , and Bishoppes .

How be it , the Emperours made Lawes , Touchinge the Holy Trinitie : Touchinge the Faithe : Touchinge Baptisme : Touchinge the Holy Communion : Touchinge the Publique Praiers : Touchinge the Scriptures : Touchinge the keepinge of Holy daies : Touchinge Churches , & Chaples : Touchinge the Consecration of Bishoppes : Touchinge Non Residences : Touchinge Periurie , &c. It were mutche for you , M. Hardinge , to saie , as nowe yée woulde séeme to saie , Al these were Moral Lawes , Cod. De Sacrosanct . Ecclesijs . Omni innouaetione . and perteined onely to good order . But the Pope , yee saie , allowed the Emperours Ecclesiastical Lawes : Otherwise , of the Emperours owne Authoritie , they had no force . The truthe hereof , by the Particulares , maie soone appeare .

By one of the Emperours Lawes it is prouided , That the Bishop of Constantinople shal haue Equal Power , Liberatus , Ca. 13. Imperatoris Patrocinio . and Prerogatiue with the Bishop of Rome . This Lawe the Pope coulde neuer brooke . And yet that notwithstandinge , Liberatus saithe , It holdeth stil by the Emperours Authoritie , whether the Pope wil , or no : Cod. De Sacrosanct . Ecclesiis . Omni innouatione . Againe , it is prouided in the same Lawe , that the Churches of Illyricum , in their doubteful cases , shal appeale to Constantinople , & not to Rome :

The Emperoure Constantine saithe , If the Bishop moue trouble ( by Doctrine , or otherwise , ) by my hande he shal be pounished : For my hande is the hande of Goddes Minister : Theodoret. Li. 1. Cap. 20. Ministri Dei , hoc est , mea manis , coercebitur .

Iustinian the Emperoure in his Lawe commaundeth , That the Prieste , or Bishop in pronouncinge the Publique Praiers , and in the Ministration of the Sacramentes , lifte vp his voice , and speake alowde , that the people maie saie , Amen , and be sturred to more Deuotion : Againe , he saithe , as it is noted in the Glose vpon the Authentiques , Papa Temporalibus immiscere se non debet : Authen . Titul. 123. The Pope maie not intermeddle with Temporal Causes :

In the same Lawes , Authen . Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat Episcopos . the same Emperoure Iustinian saithe , Wee Commounde the moste Holy Archebishoppes , and Patriarkes , of Rome , of Constantinople , of Alexandria , of Antioche , and of Hierusalem : The same Emperoure Iustinian commaundeth , That al Monkes , Authen . Colla. 9. Titu . 15. De Sanctiss . Episcopis . Iubemus Beatissimos Archiepiscopos , Senioris Romae , &c. either be driuen to studie the Scriptures , or els be forced to Bodily Laboure : Carolus Magnus made a Lawe , That nothinge shoulde be readde openly in the Churche , sauinge onely the Canonical Bookes of the Holy Scriptures : And that the Faitheful People shoulde receiue the Holy Communion euery Sonnedaie . I leaue the rehearsal of infinite other like Examples .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , wil you saie , or maie wee beleue , that al these , and other like Lawes were allowed by the Pope ?

In déede your Gloser saithe , Authen . Tit. 133. Ansigisus Lib. 1. Cap. 19. Ad quid intromittit se Imperator de Spiritualibus , vel Ecclesiasticis , cùm sciat ad se non pertinere ? Wherefore doothe the Emperoure thus busie him selfe with these Spiritual , or Ecclesiastical maters , seeinge he knoweth , they are no parte of his Charge ? Carolus Magnus Lib. 6. Cap. 162. Authen . Colla. 1. Titu . 6. Quomodo oporteat . To so profounde a question , after a longe solemne studie , he diuiseth this answeare : Dic , quòd Authoritate Papae hoc facit : Scie thou , that he doothe it by the Popes Authoritie : And then the whole mater is discharged , and al is wel .

Notwithstandinge , somme likelihoode hereof yee would seeme to geather , euen out of Iustinians owne woordes . Gloss . in verbu● Sanc●mus . For thus he saithe vnto the Pope , although far otherwise , then you haue forced him to saie : Omnia , quae ad Ecclesiarum statum pertinent , festinauimus ad notitiam deferre Vestrae Sanctitatis . Necessarium ducimus , vt ad notitiam Vestrae Sanctitatis peruenirent . Nec enim patimur , quicquam , quod ad Ecclesiarum Statum pertinet , vt non etiam Vestrae innotescat Sanctitati : quae Caput est omnium Sanctarum Ecclesiarum : What so euer thinges perteine to the state of the Churches , Cod. De Summa Trinita . & Fide Catho . Inter Claras . wee haue spedily brought to the knowledge of your Holinesse . Wee thought it necessarie , that your Holinesse should haue knowledge thereof . We suffer not any thing , that concerneth the State of the Churches , but it be brought to the knowledge of your Holinesse : whiche is the Heade , or Chiefe of al the Holy Churches .

The Emperoure willeth the Pope , to take knowledge of his Lawes , for that he was the Chiefe of the Foure Principal Patriarkes , and , in respecte of his See , the greatest Bishop of al the Worlde : for whiche cause also he calleth him , the Heade , Cod. De Veteri Iure Enucleando . Chrysostom . ad Romanos . Homi. 18. or Chiefe of al Churches . So Iustinian saithe , Roma est Caput Orbis Terrarum : Rome is the Heade of al the Worlde . So S. Chrysostome saithe , Caput Prophetarum Elias : Elias , the Heade of the Prophetes . So saithe Prudentius , Sancta Bethlem Caput est Orbis : The Holy towne of Bethlem is the Heade of the Worlde .

So Nazianzene calleth S. Basile , Prudentius in Enchiridio . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Oculum Orbis Terrarum : The Eie of al the Earthe . So Iustinian calleth the Bishop of Constantinople an , Vniuersal Patriarke : Nazianzenus in Epist. ad Basili . Epiphanio Vniuersali Patriarchae .

These , and other like woordes , passe oftentimes in fauoure , as Titles of Honoure . But they importe not alwaies that Vniuersal Gouernemente , Authen . Colla. 1. Vt determinatus . or Infinite Authoritie , that the Pope sithence hath imagined . But , touchinge the Confirmation , and allowance of the Emperours Lawes , in these woordes of Iustinian yee finde nothinge : Onlesse yee wil saie , Notitia , is Latine for , Allowance : or , Peruenire , is Latine to Confirme .

The Emperours pourpose was , as it plainely appeareth by his woordes , by these , & al other meanes , to bringe the See of Rome into credite . For thus he saith , Properamus , Cod. De summa Trinita . & Fide Cath. Inter Claras . Honorem , & Authoritatem Crescere Sedis Vestrae : Omnes Sacerdotes Vniuersi Orientalis Tractus , & subijcere , & vnire Sedi Vestrae Sanctitatis properauimus . Plus ita Vestrae Sedis crescer Authoritas : We laboure , to auance the Honoure , and Authoritie of your See : Wee laboure to subdewe , and to ioine al the Priestes of the Easte Parte vnto the See of your Holinesse . Thus shal the Authoritie of your See the more encrease .

Notwithstandinge , Gregor. Haloander , Et Azo . it is noted by the Learned of your owne side , that these Epistles bitweene the Emperoure , & the Pope , in the Oldest Allowed Bookes are not founde : and therefore are suspected to sauoure of somme Romaine forgerie . Hereby it is easy to vnderstande , that vntil the time of the Emperoure Iustinian , which was welneare six hundred yeeres after Christe , the Bishoppes of the Easte Churche were not subiecte to the Bishop of Rome : and , that for so longe time , the Pope was not yet knowen for the Heade of the Vniuersal Churche of God .

One of your owne Allowed Doctours saithe thus , Heruae . De Potest . Papae . Ca. 17. Dicere , quo'd Princeps non potest facere Leges , vel eis vti , quousque fuerint approbatae per Papam , falsum est : To saie , that the Prince cannot , either make , or vse his Lawes , before the Pope haue allowed them , it is plainely false .

Abbate Panormitane , Extra . De Constituti . Ecclesiae Sanctae Mariae . Numero 9. to qualifie the mater , saithe thus , Lex Principis Praeiudicialis Ecclesijs , non extenditur ad Ecclesias , nisi expressè approbetur per Papam : Sed , si fauet Ecclesijs , intelligitur approbata , nisi expressè reprobetur : The Princes Lawe , if it be Preiudicial , or hurteful to the Churche , is not extended vnto the Churche , onlesse it be expressely allowed by the Pope : But if it be profitable for the Churche , wee muste thinke , it is allowed , onlesse it be expressely disallowed .

But here , M. Hardinge , this one thinge yee maie note by the waie : that , notwithstandinge you cannot finde , by any shifte , or coloure , whereof ye lacke no stoare , that the Pope hath Authoritie to allowe the Emperours Lawes : yet , of the other side , wee are hable readily to finde , that the Emperoure hath Authoritie to allowe the Popes Lawes . For so the Emperoure Iustinian him selfe saithe : A praecedentibus nos Imperatoribus , & à nobis ipsis rectè dictum est , Oportere Sacras Regulas pro Legibus valere : It is wel saide , bothe by other Emperours our Predecessours , Authen . Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat . and also by vs , that the Holy Canons muste be holden for Lawes .

Likewise saithe Pope Honorius . 3. Imperator Iustinianus decreuit , vt Canones Patrum vim Legum habere oporteat : Extra , De Iuramen . Calum . Inhaerentes . The Emperoure Iustinian hath decreed , that the Canons of the Fathers shal haue the force of Lawes .

But , what can be so plaine , as that Iustinian hereof writeth him selfe ? These be his woordes : Authen . De Eccles. diuersis Capitulis . Nisi intra praescriptum tempus ad Ecclesias suas redeant , deponantur , & alij in illorum locum surrogentur , idque Authoritate , & vi huius Praesentis Legis : Onlesse Bishoppes , and Priestes , repaire againe vnto their Churches by a daie appointed , let them be depriued from their liuinges , and let others be placed in their roumes , ( not by the Authoritie of the Pope , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . August . Epist. 48. Cod. De veteri Iure Enuclean . L. 1. but ) by the force , and Authoritie of this Presente Lawe . So saithe S. Augustine , Reges in Terris seruiunt Christo , faciendo Leges pro Christo : Kinges in the worlde serue Christe , in that they make Lawes for Christe . Likewise saithe Iustinian , Legum Authoritas & Diuinas , & Humanas res bene disponit : By the Authoritie of the ( Emperours ) Lawes bothe Heauenly , and worldly thinges are wel ordered . And againe , Nullum genus rerum est , quod non sit penitùs quaerendum Authoritate Imperatoris . Is enim recipit à Deo communem gubernationem , Authen . Titu. 133 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . & Principalitatem super omnes homines : There is no kinde of thinge , but it maie be thorowly examined by the Authoritie of the Emperoure . For he receiueth from God a General Gouernemente , and Principalitie ouer al menne : that is , as wel of the Cleregie , eas of the Laitie .

So saithe Paulus the Bishop of Apamea vnto the same Emperoure Iustinian , vpon the deathe of Agapetus the Bishop of Rome : Concil Constantinop . 5. Actione . 1. Transtulit ipsum Dominus , vt Plenitudinem directionis Vestrae custodiret Serenitati : Our Lorde hath taken the Pope awaie , that he mighte reserue the whole f●lnesse of order vnto your Maiestie .

Touchinge the Depriuation of the twoo Popes , Syluerius , and Vigilius , yee saie , It was donne onely by Theodora the Empresse , and not by the Emperoure Iustinian : and therein , yee thinke , yée haue taken vs in somme greate aduantage . Notwithstandinge in your owne Pontifical it is written thus , Concil. Tomo . 2. in vita Vigilij . Belisarium interrogauit Imperator , quomodò se haberet cum Romanis : vel quomodò in loco Syluerij statuisset Vigilium . Tunc gratias ei egerunt Imperator , & Augusta : The Emperoure demaunded of his Captaine Belisarius , howe he had donne with the Romaines : and howe he had deposed Pope Syluerius , and placed Vigilius in his steede . Vpon his answeare , bothe the Emperoure , and the Empresse gaue him thankes . Nowe yee knowe , ff. In Regulis Iuris . it is a Rule in Lawe , Ratihabitio retrotrahitur , & mandato comparatur : The Allowance of a thinge donne , is as good , as a Commission for the dooinge .

Somme of your Frendes haue saide , Petrus De Palud . De Potesta . Papae , Arti. 4. Eutropij appendix , De Syluerio . Totus Mundus non potest Deponere , aut Iudicare Papam : The whole worlde cannot Depose , or Iudge the Pope . Yet Eutropius saithe , Si quando Imperialis Legatus mitteretur à Principe , vt Romanus Pontifex proficisceretur Constantinopolim ad Imperatorem , omni neglecta occasione , ibat : etiamsi pro certo sciret , se iturum in exilium : If the Emperours Embassadoure had commaunded the Bishop of Rome to appeare at Constantinople before the Emperoure , he wente streight waie without excuse : Yea , although he certainely knewe , that he shoulde be bannished . Here I leaue sundrie Examples of Emperours , that by their Authoritie haue Deposed , not onely other Bishoppes , but also Popes : Ennodius : Inter Decreta Bonifacij . 1. As the Example of Honorius , that Deposed Pope Bonifacius : Of Theodoricus , that Deposed Pope Symmachus : Of Otho , that Deposed Pope Iohn , 12 : Of Henrie , that Deposed Pope Benedictus . 9. and that , as it is recorded , not by wilful might , or Tyrannie , but , Imperiali , & Canonica Censura : By his Emperial , and by the Canonical Censures . Yea , one of your owne Frendes saith thus : Populus commendabiliter Zelo Fidei commotus , Constantinum Papam , qui erat Ecclesiae in scandalum , priuauit oculis , & Deposuit : The people of Rome , moued with the Zele of Faithe , Iohannes De Parisijs , De Potest . Regia , & Papali . tooke Pope Constantine , and pulled out his eies , and Deposed him , for that he was sclaunderous vnto the Churche : and they deserued greate Praise for the same .

How be it , Idem , eodem Ioco . yée saie , these twoo Popes , Syluerius , and Vigilius were Good Menne , and Godly Fathers : and therefore the remouinge of them was Violence , and Tyrannie . And hereto yee apply the vnsauerie Similitude of your Homely Puddinges . Notwithstandinge , what Vertue , or Holinesse was in either of these menne , it maie soone appeare by the storie . Pope Syluerius was chosen Pope by Corruption , Concil. Tom. 2. In Syluerio . Euagrius , Lib. 4. Cap. 19. and Simonie , contrarie to the wil of the Cleregie : Pope Vigilius accused him of Treason , for that he woulde haue betraied the Cittie of Rome to the Gotthians . As for Pope Vigilius , youre Pontifical saithe , He was a False Witnesse againste his Predecessoure , Pope Syluerius : He sought vndewe meanes to remoue him , and to place him selfe : He keapte him in Prison , and sterued him for hunger : He gaue a greate somme of monie to procure the Popedome to him selfe : He killed his owne Notarie : He killed a yonge man , beinge a Widowes Sonne : And of these crimes he was accused before the Emperoure . Sutche Vertue , and sutche Holinesse the worlde founde in them . Therefore the Godly Emperoure in remouinge of them , vsed neither Extraordinarie Violence , as you saie , nor Iniurious Tyrannie .

Your owne felowes saie , Heruaeus , De Potest . Papae . Ca. 13. Si Papa sit incorrigibilis , nec Cardinales possint per se amouere scandalum de Ecclesia , tunc in subsidium iuris , deberent supplicando inuocare Brachium Saeculare . Et tunc Imperator , requisitus à Cardinalibus , deberet procedere contra Papam : If the Pope be vncorrigible , and the Cardinalles be not hable of them selues to remoue the offense from the Churche , then ought they , for aide of the Lawe , by waie of intreatie , to calle vpon the Seculare Power . And then the Emperoure , beinge thus desired , ought to proceede orderly againste the Pope .

Franciscus Zarabella saithe , as he is alleged before , Papa potest accusari coram Imperatore , Franc. Zarabella De Schemate , & Concilio . de quolibet crimine notorio : Et Imperator requirere potest à Papa rationem Fidei : The Pope in any notorious crime maie be accused before the Emperoure : And the Emperoure maie require the Pope , to yelde a reckeninge of his Faithe .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 1.

Lette vs see then , sutche menne , as haue Authoritie ouer the Bishoppes , sutche menne , as receiue from God Commaundementes concerninge Religion , sutche , as bringe home againe the Arke of God , make Holy Hymnes , ouersee the Priestes , builde the Temple , make Orations touchinge Diuine Seruice , cleanse the Temples , destroie the Hil Aultars , burne the Idolles Groues , teache the Priestes their duetie , write them out Preceptes , how they should liue , kille the wicked Prophetes , displace the High Priestes , cal togeather the Councelles of Bishoppes , sitte togeather with the Bishoppes , instructinge them what thei ought to doo , condemne , and pounishe Heretical Bishopes , be made acquainted with maters of Religion , The Popes Power Supernatural . whiche Subscribe , and geeue Sentence , & doo al these thinges , not by any other Mans Commission , but in their owne name , and that bothe vprightly , and Godly : Shal we saie , It perteineth not to sutche menne , to haue to doo with Religion ? Or , shal wee saie , A Christian Magistrate , whiche dealeth amongest others in these maters , doothe either naughtily , or presumptuously , or wickedly ? The moste Aunciente , and Christian Emperours , & Kinges , that euer were , did occupie them selues in these maters : and yet were they neuer , for this cause , noted either of wickednesse , or of Presumption . And what is hee , that canue finde out , either more Catholique Princes , or more Notable Examples ?

M. Hardinge .

Now then Kinges , and Emperours , ‡ ‡ Vntruthes three togeather . Open , and Manifeste . Reade the Answeare . who haue their firste auctoritie by the positiue Lawe of Nations , ‡ ‡ Vntruthes three togeather . Open , and Manifeste . Reade the Answeare . not by supernaturall grace from God , as Priestes haue : who can haue no more power then the people hath , ‡ ‡ Vntruthes three togeather . Open , and Manifeste . Reade the Answeare . of whome they take their Temporall iurisdiction : Who haue euer * * vntruth , Confessed by M. Hardinges owne Doctours . benne annoincted and Blessed by Bishoppes , who so euer blesseth beinge greater then he that is blessed : Shall wee saie , that suche Kinges , and Emperours haue auctoritie to rule the Churche , ‡ ‡ And is not the Pope a Sonne of the Church ? Then is he not the Sonne of God . whose Sonnes they are ? To be Supreme Heads ouer them , whome they ought to kneele vnto for Absolution ? To controll their spirituall Iudges , whome if they Sinne by humaine frailtie , they * * Vntruthe . For that the Prince ought so doo , Constantinus neuer saide it . Dist. 22. Omnes . ought to couer with their clokes , * * Vntruthe . For that the Prince ought so doo , Constantinus neuer saide it . Dist. 22. Omnes . as the Greate Constantine saide : to degrade them , of whome they must be Baptized , Anoincted , Crowned , and Buried ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

Nowe , M. Hardinge , yée huddle vp hastily your poore Argumentes in heapes togeather . One , or twoo of them onely I minde to touche : The reste are not woorth the sturringe . Firste yée saie , The Popes Power is of God , The Princes Power is onely of Man . The one Supernatural , the other Natural . In sutche sorte your Pope Nicolas adourneth , & magnifieth his owne Chaire . For thus he saith with a ioily courrage : Illud Verbum , quo constructum est Coelum , & Terra , quo denique omnia ficta sunt Elementa , Romanam fundauit Ecclesiam : The Woorde of God , whereby Heauen , and Earthe was made , and whereby al the Elementes were fashioned , the same Woorde founded the Churche of Rome . As if the Churche of Rome , and other Churches , were not al of one Fundation . An other of your Popes Reteiners saithe , Papatus est Summa Virtus Creata : Iohan. De Parisijs , De Potesta . Regia . & Papali . The Popedome is the Highest Vertue , or Power , that euer God made : that is to saie , the Popedome is aboue Angels , Archangels , Thrones , Dominations , and al the Powers , in , vnder , or aboue the Heauens .

An other saithe , euen as you saie , and , as I haue partely saide before : Rex per Hominem fit : Sacerdos autem proximè nascitur ex Deo ipso : Quantùm Deus praestat Sacerdoti , Stanislaus Orichouius in Chimaera . Fo. 97 , & 99. tantùm Sacerdos praestat Regi : The Kinge is made by Man : But the Prieste is immediately begotten of God . As mutche as God excelleth the Prieste , so mutche the Prieste excelleth the Kinge .

And , notwithstandinge al this Supernatural Power be as wel in the Simplest Prieste , Petrus De Palude De Potestate Curator . Arti. 6. as in the Pope , yet an other of your Doctours saithe , Papa eligitur secundum Ius Diuinum : alij verò Episcopi , secundum Ius Humanum : The Pope is chosen by the Lawe of God : But other Bishoppes are chosen by the Lawe of Man . Thus yee thinke no coloure too deere , to painte oute the Popes face , and to make it faire and glorious .

But the Princes Power , yee saie , is Temporal , and Natural , and onely from beneathe , and onely of Man : and therefore can be no greatter , then Man maie geeue him . This is youre Louanian Diuinitie , M. Hardinge : So highely yée esteeme the Dignitie , & Maiestie of the Prince . Prouerb . 8. Rom. 13. But God him selfe saithe , Per me Reges regnant : Kinges rule by me ( and not by Man ) . S. Paule saithe , Non est Potestas , nisi à Deo : There is no Power , or Princehoode , but from God . Likewise Christe him selfe said vnto Pilate , Iohan. 19. Thou couldest haue no Power ouer me , onlesse it were geuen thee ( not from man , but ) from aboue . To like pourpose the Emperoure Iustinian saith , Maxima in omnibus sunt Dona Dei , Authen . Colla. 1. Quomodo oporteat Episcopos . Maxima . à Superna collata Clementia , Sacerdotium , & Imperium &c. Ex vno codemqúe Principio vtraque procedentia Humanam exornant vitam : Priestehoode , and Princehoode be in al thinges the greattest giftes of God , geuen vnto vs from the Mercie aboue . These two floweinge ( not the one onely from Man , & the other from God , but ) bothe from one Original , doo adourne and bewtifie the Life of Man . Vpon whiche woordes it is noted in your Glose , Idem Principium habent , & parum differunt : Glosa , In verbum , Vtraque . Priestehoode , and Princehoode haue one Original , and smal difference . He saithe not , as you saie , The oddes bitwéene these twoo is so greate , as is bitweene Natural , and Supernatural : bitweene Heauen , & Earthe : or , bitweene God , and Man : But he saithe plainely , Priestehoode , and Princehoode haue one Original , and little oddes , and smal difference . And therefore an other of your Doctours saithe , Supponunt , quòd Potestas Regalis sit Corporalis , & non Spiritualis : Heruaeus , De Potesta . Papae . Ca. ●5 . & quòd habeat Curam Corporum , & non Animarum : quod falsum est : They imagine , that the Princes Power is onely Bodily , and not Ghostely : and , that the Prince hath the Charge of mennes Bodies , but none of their Soules : But this is starke false .

And whereas you so highly extolle your Popes Vniuersal Power , as if it were Supernatural , and Heauenly , and came onely from God , An other of your Doctours saithe , Iohan. De Parisijs , De Potesta . Regia , & Papali . Ea , quae sunt Iurisdictionis Papae , non sunt supra Naturam , & Conditionem negotij , nec supra Conditionem hominum . Quia non est supra conditionem hominis , quòd homines praesint hominibus . Imò naturale est quodammodò : Sutche thinges , as belonge to the Popes Iurisdiction , are not aboue Nature , nor aboue the Condition of the thinge it selfe , nor aboue the Capacitie of a Man . For it is not aboue the Nature of a Man , for Man to rule ouer Menne . Naie rather , in a sorte , it is Natural . Nowe , M. Hardinge , if the Princes Power be from God , as wel , as the Popes : If the Popes Power concerninge Iurisdiction , be Natural , as wel as the Princes : If they flowe bothe from one Original : If they haue so smal difference , what meante you then , by these odious Comparisons , so highly , and so ambitiously to auance the one , & so disdeignefully , and scornefully to abase the other ? Touchinge the Princes Power , wée are certainely assured by Goddes Holy Woorde , It is from God . As for the Popes Infinite , and Vniuersal Power , throughout the whole Scriptures , from the Genesis vnto the Apocalyps , onlesse it be the Power of Darkenesse , yee can finde nothinge .

Yée saie , Kinges haue euermore benne Anointed , and Blessed by Bishoppes . This is an other fowle Vntruthe . For you might easily haue knowen , the Christian Kinges in olde times were neuer Anointed . Heruaeus , De Potestae . Papae . Ca. 18. Your owne Doctoure saith , In Nouo Testamento non legimus , quòd Sacerdotes debeant inungere Reges : Nec etiam nunc obseruatur in omnibus Regibus Christianis : vt patet in Regibus Hispaniae : Wee reade not in the Newe Testamente , that Priestes , or Bishoppes ought to anointe Kinges . Neither is that order at this daie vsed emongest al Kinges , that be Christened : as it appeareth by the Kinges of Spaine . Againe yee saie , and that yée bringe in , as a special good Argumente of your side , The Emperoure kneeleth to the Prieste for Absolution : Ergo , The Emperoure is not the Heade of the Churche . Howe maie a man answeare sutche Folies , better then with the like Folie ? The Pope him selfe , by your owne Decrees , is bounde to Confesse his Sinnes , and kneeleth to a Simple Prieste for Absolution . For your Canonistes saie , Papa tenetur Confiteri peccata sua vni Sacerdoti : Et Simplex Sacerdos potest illum Ligare , & Absoluere : The Pope is bounde to confesse his Sinnes to somme one Prieste : and a Simple Prieste maie bothe Binde him , and Absolue him . Ergo , by your owne Conclusion , The Pope is not Heade of the Churche . Sutche a handesome proctoure the Pope hathe gotten to promote his Cause .

With sutche prety stuffe , M. Hardinge , yee thinke to ouerrenne , and to conquere the worlde .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 2.

Wherefore , if it were lawful for them to doo thus , beinge but ciuile Magistrates , & hauinge the chiefe rule of common Weales , what offence haue oure Princes at this daie made , whiche maie not haue leaue to doo the like , beinge in the like Degree ? Or what especial gifte of Learning , or of Iudgemente , or of Holinesse haue these menne nowe , that they , contrarie to the Custome of al the Aunciente & Catholique Bishoppes , who vsed to conferre with Princes , and Peeres , concerninge Religion , doo nowe thus reiecte and caste of Christian Princes from knowinge of the cause , and from their meetinges ?

M. Hardinge .

Wee answeare , it was * * Vntruthe , As it maie easily appeare by that , hath benne saide before . neuer lawfull in any Temporall Prince , to iudge in causes of Religion . * * Vntruthe , As it maie easily appeare by that , hath benne saide before . Neither did any Prince before this time euer vse it .

The B. of Sarisburie .

This is an other of your Absolute Truthes , M. Hardinge . For answeare whereof , Parte . 6. Cap. 14. Diuis. 4 & 5. it maie please you indifferently to weighe , that I haue written alitle before touchinge the same .

The Apologie , Cap. 15. Diuision . 3.

Wel , thus dooing , they wisely , & warily prouide for them selues , and for their Kingedome , whiche otherwise they see is like shortly to comme to naught . For if so be they , whome God hathe placed in greatest Dignitie , did see , and perceiue these mennes practises , how christes commaundementes be despised by them , how the Lighte of the Gospel is darkened , and quenched out by them , and howe them selues also be subtilly beguiled , and mocked , and vnwares be deluded by them , and the waie to the Kingedome of Heauen stopped vp before them , no doubte they woulde neuer so quietly suffer them selues , neither to be disdeined after sutche a prowde sorte , nor so despitefully to be scorned , and abused by them . But now through their owne lacke of vnderstandinge , and through their owne blindenesse , these menne haue them faste yoked , and in their daunger .

M. Hardinge .

Bishoppes * * Otherwise it were not the Kingedome of Darkenesse . can not vpholde their kingdome by wronge doinge : ‡ ‡ When they be once espied : and not before . that is the waie to pull them downe . Therefore we are well assured that your Schismaticall Superintendentship can not stande , though al the power of the world were bente to holde it vp . Your wicked state is not planted of God , and therefore it shal be rooted out . Affiance in Darkenesse . It is God , that ruleth : it is God that setteth vp , and putteth downe . This state of Christes Churche hath continewed , and the successour of Peter hath gouerned it , whereas the groundlesse buildinge of all the Heretikes from Simon Magus downewarde to this daie hath failed . Luther is rotten , and his newe founde Religion decaied , and the Pope sitteth in Peters chaire , and so shall his successours to the ende .

Ye woulde men to beleue , that Emperours , and Kinges are deceiued by the Popes , and Bishoppes . But I praie you , what is the cause , that Princes can not espie these deceites ( if any suche were ) as well as ye ? If them selues lacke your knowledge , yet haue they wise menne aboute them , who for their dueties sake , and their alleagiance to them ▪ would soone aduertise them ▪ how by the Bishoppes they be subtilly beguiled , and mocked .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Of the maineteinance of your Kingedome , M. Hardinge , Christe saide vnto certaine your Forefathers , Hoc est tempus Vestrum , & Potestas Tenebrarum : This is your time , Luke . 22. Matthae . 15. and the Power of Darkenesse . Blinde they are , and the Guides of the Blinde . If the Blinde leade the Blinde , they wil bothe falle into the diche . The Lion , or wilde Bulle , be they neuer so cruel , or greate of courrage , yet , if yee maie once closely couer theire eies , yée maie easily leade them , whither yee liste , without resistance . Euen so dooth the Pope hoodewinke , and blindefolde the Princes of the world : whiche donne , he maketh them to holde his Stirope , to leade his Horse , to kneele downe , and to kisse his Shooe , and to attende vpon him , at his pleasure . But , if they knewe , either him , or them selues , they would not doo it .

S. Chrysostome saithe , Chrysost. in Opere imperfecto . Homil. 44. as it is noted before , Haeretici Sacerdotes claudunt Ianuas Veritatis . Sciunt enim , si manifestara esset Veritas , quòd ipsorum Ecclesia esset relinquenda : & ipsi de Sacerdotali Dignitate ad Humilitatem venirent popularem : Heretical Bishoppes shut vp the gates of the Truthe ▪ For thei know , that , if the Truthe be once laide open , their Churche shal be foresaken : And they from theire Pontifical Dignitie , shal be brought downe to the basenesse of the people .

Petrus Ferrariensis , Petrus Ferrarien . Citatur ab Illyrico , Inter Testes Veritatis . in consideration hereof , complaineth thus , O miseros Imperatores , & Saeculares Principes , qui haec , & alia sustinetis , & vos seruos Ecclesiae facitis : Et Mundum per eos infinitis modis vsurpari videtis : nec de remedio cogitatis : Quia prudentiae , & Sapientiae non intenditis : Alas , miserable are yee , the Emperours , and Princes of the worlde , that abide these , and other like thinges ( at the Popes handes , ) and make your selues slaues vnto the Churche . Yee see , the worlde is by innumerable waies miserably abused by them : yet yee neuer bethinke your selues of any remedie : Bicause yee applie not your mindes to wisedome , and knowledge .

S. Hieronym . in Esaiam , Lib. 9. Cap. 30. Hierome saithe , Vt sagittent in obscuro rectos corde . Isti tantam sibi assumunt Authoritatem , vt siue Dextra doceant , seu Sinistra , id est , siue bona , siue mala , ●olint Discipulos ratione discutere , sed se praecessores sequi . Tunc hi , qui priùs decipiebant , nequaquam vltrà ad eos valebunt accedere , postquam se senserint intellectos : To strike in the darke , them , that be simple of harte . These menne challenge vnto them selues sutche Authoritie , that , whether they teache with the Right hande , or with the Leafte , that is to saie , whether they teache good thinges , or badde , they wil not haue their Disciples , or Hearers , with reason to examine their saieinges , but onely to folowe them , beinge their Leaders . For then they , whiche before deceiued the people , can no more comme vnto them , after they once perceiue , they be espied .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 1.

Verely , we for our partes , as we haue saide , haue donne nothinge in alteringe Religion , vpon either Rashnesse , or Arrogancie : nor nothinge , but with good leasure , and greate consideration . Neither had we euer entended to doo it , excepte bothe the manifest , & most assured Wil of God , opened to vs in his Holy Scriptures , and the regarde of our owne Saluation had euen constreined vs thereunto . For though wee haue departed from that Churche , whiche these menne cal Catholike , and by that meanes geate vs enuie amongest them , that wante skil to iudge , yet is this yenough for vs , & it ought to be yenough for euery wise , and good man , and one that maketh accompte of Euerlastinge Life , that we haue gonne from that churche whiche had power to erre : whiche christe , who can not erre , tolde so longe before , it shoulde erre : and whiche we our selues did euidently see with our eies , to haue gonne from the Olde Holy Fathers , and from the Apostles , and from Christe him selfe , and from the Primitiue and catholique churche of God : & wee are comme , as neare , as we possibly coulde , to the Churche of the Apostles , and of the Olde catholike Bishoppes & Fathers : whiche Churche , we know , hathe hitherto benne sounde , and perfite , and , as Tertullian termeth it , a Pure Virgine , spotted as then with no Idolatrie , nor with any foule , or shameful faulte : and haue directed , accordinge to theire Customes , and Ordinaunces , not onely our Doctrine , but also the Sacramentes , and the Fourme of common Praier .

M. Hardinge .

Ye haue treated hereof , after your accustomed manner , that is to saie , with al Vntruthe , and Lies .

Yee comme in with many gaie woordes . Whereto with guilty conscience in wardely yee saie yea , thereto with lieinge tongue out wardely doo yee not saie naie ?

This generation of loose Apostates , incestuous Vowbreakers , Sacrilegious Churcherobbers , despisers of all Holinesse , breakers of the deade mennes willes , ouerthrowers of all aunciente order , and discipline .

If it be so , where be your Signes ? where be your Miracles ? where be the examples of your rare Vertue , and Holinesse ?

The B. of Sarisburie .

The reste of your speache wee wil passe ouer , as talke of course . Touchinge your curious demaunde of Signes , and Miracles , Pope Leo maie answeare you . For , Matthae . 27. whereas certaine of your Forefathers in olde times saide , If he be the Kinge of Israel , lette him comme downe from the Crosse , and wee wil beleeue him : Pope Leo saithe thus vnto them , Leo in Sermon . De Passione Domini . Non erat vestrae coecitatis arbitrio , Stulti Scribae , & Impij Sacerdotes , ostendenda potentia Saluatoris : Yee foolishe Scribes , and wicked Priestes , the Power of our Saueour was not to be shewed at the discretion of your Blindenesse . God sheweth his Miracles when , and where , and to whome he wil.

S. Chrysost. in Matthae . Homi. 49. Chrysostome saithe , In fine temporis concedenda est potestas Diabolo , vt faciat Signa vtilia : vt iam Ministros Christi non per hoc cognoscanius , quia vtilia faciunt Signa , sed quia omninò haec Signa non faciunt : In the ende of time Power shal be geuen to the Diuel , to woorke profitable Signes , and Miracles : So that then wee cannot knowe the Ministers of Christe , by that they woorke profitable Miracles , but by that they woorke no Miracles at al.

S. Augustin . De Vnitate Ecclesiae . Ca. 16. Augustine saithe , Non dicat , Ideo verum est , quia illa , vel illa mirabilia fecit , vel iste , vel ille : aut quia homines ad memorias mortuorum nostrorum orant , & exaudiuntur : aut quia illa , vel illa ibi contingunt , &c. Remoueantur ista , vel Figmenta mendacium hominum , Miracles . vel portenta Fallacium Spirituum : Lette no man saie , Therefore it is true , for that this man , or that man hath wrought this , or that Miracle : or , for that menne make their Praiers at the Toumbes of our deade , and obteine their desires : or , for that these , or these Miracles be wrought there &c. Awaie with these thinges : they maie be either the Iugglinges , and Mockeries of deceiteful menne , or els Illusions of Lieinge Sprites . Chrysostom . in Matth. Hom. 49. Againe , S. Chrysostome saithe , Per Signa cognoscebatur , qui essent Veri Christiani , qui Falsi . Nunc autem Signorum operatio omnino ' leuata est : Magis autem inuenitur apud eos , qui falsi sunt Christiani : In olde times it was knowen by Miracles , who were the True Christians , and whoe the False . But nowe the woorkinge of Miracles is taken quite awaie : and is rather founde emonge them , that be false Christians . Augustin . in Iohan . Tracta. 13. Therefore S. Augustine saithe , Contra istos Mirabiliarios cautum me fecit Deus meus , dicendo : In nouissimis diebus exurgent Pseudoprophetae facientes Signa , & Portenta , vt inducant in errorem , si fieri possit , etiam Electos : Againste these Moungers of Miracles my God hath armed me , Matthae . 24. saieinge : In the later daies there shal rise vp False Prophetes woorkinge Signes , and woonders , to deceiue the Electe of God , if it be possible .

Neither is the Gospel of Christe preached this daie vtterly without Miracles . The Blinde see : the Doumbe speake : your Idolles are fallen : your Greate Babylon is comme to grounde . These , M. Hardinge , if you haue eies to sée them , are no smal Miracles . Chrysostom . in . 1. Corin. Homil. 6. August . De Verbis Domi. Secund. Matthae . Serm 18. Eodem loco . S. Chrysostome saith , The Conuersion of the worlde is a Miracle . S. Augustine saithe , Modò Caro Coeca non aperit oculos Miraculo Domini : Et Cor Coecum aperit oculos Sermone Domini : Nowe adaies the Blinde fleashe openeth not her eies by the Miracle of our Lorde : Put the Blinde harte Openeth his eies at the Woorde of our Lorde . And againe , Modò Aures Corporis surde● non aperiuntur . Sed quàm multi habent clausas Aures Cordis , quae tamen , Verbo Dei penetrante , patescant ? Nowe adaies the deafe Eares of the Body be not opened : yet many there are , that haue the Eares of their harte shut vp : whiche Eares not withstandinge are opened by entringe of the Woorde of God .

Therefore wèe maie rightly saie to you with other woordes of S. Augustine , Quisquis adhuc Prodigia , Augustin . De Ciuitate Dei . Lib. 22. Cap. 8. vt credat , inquirit . Magnum est ipse prodigium : qui , mundo credente , non credit : Who so euer yet requireth Miracles , to bringe him to the Faithe , is him selfe a greate Miracle : that , the worlde beleeuinge , remaineth stil in vnbeliefe .

Where as the Phariseis saide of Christe , Lette him nowe comme downe from the Crosse , Hieronym . in Matthae . 27. and we wil beleue him , S. Hierome saithe vnto them , Etiamsi de Cruce descenderet , similiter non crederetis : Yea , although he shoulde comme downe from the Crosse , yet woulde ye not beleeue him .

But it were a worlde , to beholde the Glorious Countenance of your Miracles . Your Crosses can speake : youre Idolles can goe : your Images can lighte their owne Lampes : your Holy Water is hable to calme the Sea , to chase awaie Mise , and to make barren Wemen to conceiue . If yée doubte hereof , conferre with M. Cope , Copus , Dialog. 1. Pag. 18. one of your owne Louanian companie : or with that Woorthy Prelate the Bishop of Verona , your Holy Father Lipomanus . I am ashamed to remember , that you are not ashamed euen nowe , in these daies , to publishe in Writinge . How be it , sutche Religion , sutche Miracles . S. Hierome saithe , Hieronymus ad Algasiam . Mendacium Antichristi Christi Veritas deuorabit : The Truthe of Christe shal deucure , and consume the Falsehedde of Antichriste .

The Apologie , Cap. 16. Diuision . 2.

And , as wee know , bothe Christe him selfe , & al good menne heretofore haue donne , we haue called home againe to the Original , and firste Fundation , that Religion , whiche hathe benne fowly neglected , and vtterly corrupted by these menne . For wee thought it meete , thence to take the Paterne of Refourminge Religion , from whence the grounde of Religion was firste taken : Bicause this one Reasone , as saithe the moste Auncient Father Tertullian , hathe greate force againste al Heresies , Looke , what soeuer was firste , that is trewe : and what soeuer is later , that is corrupte . Irenaeus oftentimes appealed to the Oldest Churches , whiche had benne nearest to Christes time , & whiche , it was harde to beleue , had benne in erroure . But why , at this daie , is not the same common regard , & consideration had ? Why returne wee not to the Paterne of the Olde Churches ? Why maie not we heare , at this time amongest vs , the same saieinge , whiche was openly pronounced in times paste in the Councel at Nice , by so many Bishoppes , & Catholique Fathers , and no body once speakinge againste it ? 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Holde stil the Olde Customes .

M. Hardinge .

Ye saie muche in your owne commendation , but lies be no proufes . Ye haue not called Religion home againe to the Original and firste Fundation , as ye saie : but ye haue quite ouerthrowen all true Religion from the fundation . As for your apishe noueltie , ye haue taken the paterne thereof from Satan auctour of diuision , the auncient ennemie of Christe , and of his true religion . Wee admitte the saieinge of Tertullian ( though it be not altogeather as ye alleage it ) that this reason hath greate force against all heresies , Contra Praxeam . What so euer was firste , that is true . what so euer is latter , that is corrupt . Of the Blessed Sacramente , Christe saide firste &c. * * Here folowed sommewhat , touchinge the Sacramente , and Sacrifice : whiche maters are otherwhere answeared more at large .

Ye woulde seeme to be faine , that we folowed the aduise of Irenaeus . We are contente with all our hartes . And with Irenaeus we appeale to that tradition , whiche is from the Apostles , whiche ( as he saieth ) is kepte in the Churches by Priestes , Lib. 3. ca. 2. that succeded them . With Irenaeus leauinge other Churches , whose successions of Bishoppes it were a longe woorke to rehearse , we require to haue recourse for triall of our Faithe to the Tradition of doctrine of the Romaine Churche , whiche he termeth , Lib. 3. ca. 3. Greatest , Oldest , best knowen to al , founded , and set vp by the twoo moste glorious Apostles , Peter , and Paule . We appeale to the Faithe of that Churche , taught abrode in the world , and by successions of Bishoppes brought downe vnto vs . For to this Churche , ‡ ‡ Irenaeus neuer knewe the disorders , and deformities , that nowe are in the Churche of Rome . saithe Irenaeus , must all the Churche of Christe repaire , where so euer it be : for that it is the chiefe of all , and for that the tradition of the true doctrine , which the Apostles leaft behinde them , * * Vntruth . For , as nowe , it is al vnfaithefully peruerted . is there faithfully kepte . Wherefore if ye would after the councell of Irenaeus resorte to Rome for decision of the controuersies , that be bet wixte you and vs , and would them to be tried by that sense of doctrine , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe manifeste , and apparente to al the worlde . which hath continewed by successions of Bishops euen from Peter to Pius the fourth , now Pope , and would stande to the auctoritie of that See Apostolike : al strife were ended , we should be at accorde . But we haue litle hope ye will folowe this godly counsel of S. Irenaeus that blessed Martyr , whose body your brethren the Huguenotes of Fraunce , vilanously burned at Lions , Anno Dom. 1562. after it had rested there thirten hundred yeeres and more .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Preeminence , Irenae . Li. 3. ca. 3. Valdè longum est , omnit●n Ecclesiarum cnumerare Successiones . that Irenaeus geueth to the Churche of Rome , standeth in Consente , and Vnitie , and Agreemente of Doctrine , not in Superioritie , or Gouernmente ouer al the worlde . For proufe whereof , yee maie vnderstande , that Irenaeus in the same place likewise specially noteth the Churche of Smyrna planted by Polycarpus : & the Churche of Ephesus , planted by S. Iohn : and generally sundrie other Greate Churches , The Paterne of the Faithe . planted by menne of Apostolical Dignitie : vnto whiche he willeth vs in like manner to repaire : & not onely to the Churche of Rome .

The Emperoure Theodsius willeth his Subiectes , to conforme them selues in Doctrine , Cod. Theodosij , Li. 16. Titul. 3. not onely to the Romaine Bishop , but also , either to Nectarius the Bishop of Constantinople : or to Timotheus the Bishop of Alexandria : or to Pelagius the Bishop of Laodicea : or to Diodorus the Bishop of Tharsus : or to Amphilochius the Bishop of Iconium : or to Optimus the Bishop of Antioche : or to Helladius the Bishop of Caesarea : or to Otreius the Bishop of Melite : or to Gregorius the Bishop of Nice : or to Terennius the Bishop of Scythia : or to Marmarius the Bishop of Martianopolis . Vnto al , and euery of these notable greate Churches , y● Emperoure willeth al other inferioure Churches to repaire .

By sutche Examples the Fathers in the Councel of Chalcedon were contented , to directe their Faithe . For thus they brake out in a general shoote , Omnes ita credimus : Concil. Chalicedonen . Actio . 2. Leo Papa ita credit : Cyrillus ita credit : Leo , & Anatolius ita credunt : Al wee beleue thus : Pope Leo beleueth thus : Cyrillus ( the Bishop of Alexandria ) beleueth thus : Leo , and Anatolius ( the Bishop of Constantiaople ) beleue thus .

So saithe Tertullian , Tertul Contra Marcion . Li. 4. Videamus , quod lac à Paulo Corinthij hauserint : ad quam Regulam Galathae sint recocti : quid legant Philippenses , Thessalonicenses , Ephesij : quid etiam Romani de proximo sonent : quibus Euangelium Petrus , & Paulus sanguine quoque suo signatum reliquerunt : Lette vs see , what milke the Corinthians suckte of S. Paule : after what Paterne the Galathians were refourmed : what the Philippians reade , what the Thessaloniens , what the Ephesiens : what sounde the Romaines geeue , that are so neare vs : vnto whom Peter , and Paule haue leafte the Gospel sealed , and confirmed with their Bloude . In like sorte writeth Gregorie Nazianzene of the Churche of Caesarea : Nazianzen . Epistol. 30. Cuiuslibet Ecclesiae , tanquam Corporis Christi , habenda est ratio : maximè verò nostrae ( Caesariensis ) quae & ab initio fuit , & nunc est , Mater propè omnium Ecclesiarum : Eam Christiana Respublica , velut Centrum suum Circulus , vndique obseruat , non solùm propter Orthodoxam Doctrinam vbique ab initio praedicatam , sed etiam propter conspicuam Concordiae Gratiam , quam diuinitùs accepit : We muste make greate accoumpte of al Churches , euen as of the Body of Christe : but specially of this our Churche of Caesarea : for that it hath benne from the beginninge , and stil is in a manner the Mother of al Churches . The whole Christian Common Weale beholdeth this Churche of euery side , euen as the Circle beholdeth the Center : not onely for the Catholique Doctrine , that from thence hath benne published euerywhere , but also for the notable Grace of Concorde , that it hath receiued from aboue .

Thus the Aunciente Godly Fathers willed the Faitheful , to haue recourse vnto euery of these Churches , of Smyrna , of Ephesus , of Constantinople , of Alexandria , of Laodicea , of Tharsus , of Iconium , of Antioche , of Caesarea , of Melite , of Nice , of Scythia , of Martianopolis , of Corinthus , of Galatia , of Philippi , of Thessalonica , of Ephesus , & of Rome : not for any secrete vnremoueable vertue in them conteined , Irenae . Li. 3. ca. 3. In qua semper conseruata est ea , quae est ab Apostolis Traditio . but onely , as Irenaeus saith , for that the Tradition , & Doctrine of the Apostles had continewed there stil without corruption . Therefore Tertullian saith , Percurre Ecclesias Apostolicas , apud quas ipsae adhuc Cathedrae Apostolorum suis locis praesidentur : apud quas ipsae Authenticae Literae eorum recitantur , sonantes vocem , & repraesentantes faciem vniuscuiusque Proxima est tibi Achaia : Habes Corinthum . Si non longè es à Macedonia , habes Philippos , habes Thessalonicenses . Tertul. De praescriptionib . contra Haereticos . Si pores in Asiam tendere , habes Ephesum . Si autem Italiae adiaces , liabes Romam : vnde nobis quoque Authoritas praestò est : Renne ouer , and beholde the Apostolique Churches , where as the Apostles Chaires are yet stil continewed , and where as the Authentical Writinges of the Apostles are openly pronounced , soundinge out the voice , The Paterne of the Faith . and representinge the face of eche one of them . The nexte Countrie to you is Achaia : There haue you the Churche of Corinthe . If yee be not for from Macedonia , there haue yee the Churche of Philippi , and the Churche of Thessalonica : If yee maie goe ouer into Asia , there haue yee the Churche of Ephesus . If yee border neare to Italie , there haue yee the Churche of Rome : from whence wee also ( dwellinge in Aphrica ) maie with speede receiue Authoritie .

Againe , touchinge the name of a Churche Apostolique , whereby yée woulde euermore séeme to vnderstande the Churche of Rome , he saithe thus : Tot , ac tantae Ecclesiae , Tertul. De Praescription , contra Haereticos . vna est illa ab Apostolis Prima , ex qua omnes . Sic omnes prime , & omnes Apostolicae , dum vnam omnes probant Vnitatem : These so many , and so great Churches , are al that same one firste Churche , planted by the Apostles , from whence issued al the reste . And so are they al Firste Churches , and al Apostolique , in that they al folowe one Vnitie .

Thus the Anciente Fathers taught the People to refourme them selues by the Example , and Doctrine , not onely of the Churche of Rome , but also of al other Notable Apostolique Churches .

Neither were they directed onely by the Authoritie of Anciente Churches , but also by the Authoritie of certaine particulare Woorthy Menne . For Resolution in cases of doubte , somme sente to S. Augustine : somme to S. Hierome : somme to the Bishoppes of France : Euseb. Li. 5. Ca. 3. somme to the Bishoppes of Rome : and somme to others . S. Hierome thus writeth vnto S. Augustine : Tu , vt Episcopus in toto Orbe notissimus , August . Epist. 11. debes hanc promulgare Sententiam , & in assensum tuum omnes Coepiscopos trahere : Thou , as the moste notable Bishop in al the worlde , oughteste to publishe this Decree , and to drawe al thy Felowbishoppes vnto thy Iudgement . Yet was S. Augustine the Bishop of Hippo in Aphrica , and not of Rome . Certainely , wheresoeuer any flame of Truthe , and Learning maie appeare , out of what place so euer it breake foorthe , men wil of them selues willingely , & gréedily flée vnto it .

Damasus , the Bishop of Rome , wrote vnto S. Hierome in doubteful Cases , to knowe his counsel . Damas . Hierony . Hieronymus ad Algasiam . S. Hierome him selfe saith , Filius meus Apodemius de Oceani littore , atque vltimis Galliarum finibus , Roma praeterita , quaesiuit Bethlehem : My sonne Apodemius , comminge from the shoare of the Ocean Sea , and from the furtheste Coaste of France , leauinge Rome , sought for Bethlehem , where I dwelle , ( to conferre with mee ) .

Likewise S. Ambrose saith , Post Alexandrinae Ecclesiae , Episcopi quoque Romanae Ecclesiae Definitionem , Ambros . Lib. 10. Epist. 83. per Literas plaerique meam adhuc expectant Sententiam : After the Resolution of the Churche of Alexandria , and also of the Bishop of the Churche of Rome , many menne yet write Letters vnto me , and woulde also vnderstande my iudgemente . Pope Liberius him selfe writeth thus vnto Athanasius , the Bishop of Alexandria : Apud Athanasi . Tomo primo . Si mecum sentis , quoeso subscribas : quò certiores reddamur , num eiusdem nobiscum suffragij sis , eademque statuas de Vera Fide : vt & ego securior efficiar , Tuaque mandata indesinenter obeam : If yee be of my Iudgemente , then I beseeche you , to subscribe ( your name vnto these Articles ) : that I maie be out of doubte , whether you thinke , as I thinke , touchinge the True Faithe : and , that I maie be the better confirmed in mee self , and maie euermore doo your Commaundementes without delaie . Here you sée your Heade of the Churche offereth him selfe with al vis Vniuersal Power , to be at the Commaundèmente of an other inferioure Bishop . Bernarde , beinge but an Abbate , writeth thus vnto Pope Eugenius : Aiunt , non vos esse Papam , Bernar. Epis. 238. sed me . Et vndique ad me confluunt , qui habent negotia : They saie , that I am Pope , and not you . And on euery side , they , that haue suites , comme renninge vnto mee .

Thus were menne woonte to séeke for Counsel , Hierony . in Apologia aduers. Ruffin . not onely at Rome , but also , where so euer it might be founde . And therefore was Origen called , Magister Ecclesiarum , The Paterne of the Faith . The Enformer , or Maister of the Churches : S. Basile , Canon Fidei , The Rule of the Faithe : Eusebius Samosatensis , Regula Veritatis , The Standarde of the Truthe : Nazian. ad Simpliciam . Nazian. ad Heronem . Athanasius , Orbis oculus , The eie of the worlde : And in doubteful Cases they were as diligently sought vpon , as the Pope .

Here , by the waie , it were a woorthy mater to consider somme of the Profound , and Learned Resolutions , that wee haue receiued from the See of Rome . Augustine the Italian Monke , whom somme haue called the Apostle of England , demaunded of Pope Gregorie , Gregor. Lib. 12. Indicti . 7. Ca. 9. by waie of greate Counsel , whether a Woman with Childe might be Baptized , or no : and howe longe afterwarde it might be lawful for her to comme to Churche .

Bonifacius , the Apostle of Germanie , demaunded the like questions of Pope Zacharie , Inter Decreta Zachariae . whether laies , Dawes , Storkes , Beauers , Otters , Hares , and Wilde Horses be mannes meate , or no : what order were to be taken with Man , or Horse , hauinge the Fallinge sickenesse : At what time of the yeere it maie be lawful , or wholesome for folkes , to eate Bacon : and , if a man liste to eate it Rawe , howe old it ought to be , Inter Decreta Alexandri 3. par. 30. Ca. 2. Si maculam in oculo . before he eate it : What maie be donne , if a Prieste haue a blacke in his eie : Who maie hallowe Oile : who maie weare the palle : At what time , in what place , in what sorte , ouer , or vnder , openly , or secretely , it maie be lawful to weare it .

To these , and other like doubteful , and profounde questions , the Pope hath geuen out his Answeares , Inter Decreta Gregor. 2. Ad Bonifacium . and that in sutch graue , and solemne sorte , as if no other Creature vnder Heauen , bisides his Holinesse , were hable to vnderstande sutche highe Mysteries .

There felle out sommetime an Odious quarrel bitwéene the Thomist s , Augusti . De Ciuitate , Li. 20. Cap. 26. Viues . and Scotistes , whether the Blessed Virgine were conceiued in sinne , or no. The one side saide , Yea : the other cried , Nay . There were Learned menne of bothe sides : Parties grewe : The Schooles were enflamed : the worlde was troubled : No Conference , no Doctoure , no Councel was hable to quiet the mater , and to make them frendes . The Scotistes alleged for them selues the Councel of Basile : The Thomistes cried out , the Councel of Basile was disorderly summoned , and therefore vnlawful . In the middes of this heate , Pope Sixtus tooke vpon him , to be Iudge bitwéene them , and to determine the bottome of the Cause . In conclusion , when al the worlde lookte to be resolued , and satisfied in the question , the Pope Commaunded bothe the Thomistes , and the Scotistes , to departe home , and to dispute no more of the mater , but to let al alone : & so leafte them as doubteful , as he founde them .

A greate contention fel out bitwéene them , of Ratispone in Germanie , and the Abbie of S. Denise in France , Io. Caluinus de Reliquijs . whether of them had the whole Body of S. Denise : for that either parte saide , & bare the worlde in hande , they had the whole . To Rome they wente : The Pope sate sadly in Iudgemente : and examined theire Allegations , and grewe to conclusion : and in the ende , gaue his aduised , & Definitiue Sentence , that either parte , as wel thei of France , as also the others of Germanie , had the whole Body of S Denise : and that who so euer woulde saie nay , shoulde be an Heretique . Of sutche substance , and certainetie are the Oracles of your See of Rome .

Somme of your frendes haue saide , Cardi. Cusanus , De Authoritat , Ecclesi . & Con. supra , & contra Scripturam . Veritas per Christum Cathedrae alligata est , non personis : Christe hath fastened his Truthe , not to the Popes personne , but to his Chaire : Meaninge thereby , that the Pope , what so euer he decree , or saie , sittinge in S. Peters Chaire , can neuer erre . And thus , by this Doctours Iudgemente , wee are taught , to géeue credite rather to the Popes Chaire , then to the Pope .

Yet neuerthelesse , The Paterne of the Faith . the same Irenaeus , whom yée haue here alleged , openly reproued Pope Victor : and S. Cyprian like wise reproued Pope Steuin : for that thei thought , Euseb. Li. 5. ca. 26. Cyprian . ad Pompeium . notwithstandinge their Chaire , they were in erroure . Brasmus , speaking of the Answeare of Pope Innocentius vnto the Councel of Carthage , saith thus , In hac Epistola & Dictionem , & Ingenium , & Eruditionem tali Praesule dignam cogimur desiderare : Inter Episto . Augu . Ep. 91. Erasm . Ambros . De Sacram . Li. 3. Ca. 1. In this Epistle wee misse bothe Eloquence , and Witte , and Learninge meete for sutche a Prelate . S. Ambrose saithe , In omnibus cupio sequi Ecclesiam Romanam . Sed tamen & nos Homines sensum habemus . Ideo quod alibi rectiùs seruatur , & nos rectè custodimus : I desire in al thinges to folowe the Churche of Rome . Howe be it , wee our selues , for that wee be menne , haue vnderstandinge , and Iudgemente too . Therefore , what so euer is better keapte in other places , wee doo wel to keepe the same .

But , touchinge the state of Rome , that nowe is , Arnulphus saide openly in y● Councel of Remes , Arnulphus in Concil. Remensi . Cùm hoc tempore Romae nullus sit , vt fama est , qui Sacras Literas didicerit , qua fronte aliquis illorum docere audebit , quod non didicerit ? For as mutche as , nowe a daies , as it is reported , there is none in Rome , that hath Learned the Scriptures , with what face dareth any of them to teache vs that thinge , that he him selfe neuer learned ?

It is not sufficiente to saie , The Pope sitteth in Peters Chaire . As Antichriste maie sitte in place of Christe , so maie Iudas sitte in place of Peter . S. Hierome saithe , Hierony . in Osee Lib. 1. Cap. 4. Bethel , quae priùs vocabatur Domus Dei , postquam Vituli in ea positi sunt , appellata est Bethauen , id est , Domus inutilis , & Domus idoli : Bethel , that before was called the House of God , after that Hieroboams Golden Calues were sette vp in it , was called Bethauen , that is to saie , a House vnprofitable , and the House of an Idole .

Therefore wée thinke it better , to examine , & trie the groundes of your Religion by the Woorde of God , that is one , and Vniforme , and enduereth for euer , then by your touche of Rome , that is so vncertaine , and so mutable , and so often hathe deceiued vs . Cyprian . ad Pompeium . S. Cyprian saithe , Si ad Diuinae Traditionis Caput , & Originem reuertamur , cessat error humanus : If wee returne to the Heade , and Original of the heauenly Tradition ( which is the Woord of God ) al humaine errour geueth place .

Touching the reste of your néedelesse talke , our Brethren in France , whom in your pleasante manner yée cal Huguenotes , burnte not the Body of Irenaeus . They knewe , he was a Blessed Martyr of God : and his Body sommetime the Temple of the Holy Ghoste . Without any reproche , or villanie , either donne , or meante to that Holy Father , if they burnte any thinge , whiche also maie wel be doubted , they burnte onely an Idole , that you had so vnreuerently sette vp againste the Glorie of God . Chrysosto . in Genesim . Homil. 67. Chrysostome saithe , Ioseph moriens air , Ossa mea efferetis hinc vobiscum : Ne Aegyptij memores beneficiorum eius , Corpus Iusti haberent in occasionem Impietatis : Ioseph lieinge in his death bedde , saide vnto his Children , and Neuewes , yee shal carrie my bones with you foorthe out of Egypte : Leste the Egyptians remembringe the good thinges , he had donne , should vse that good mannes Body to an occasion of Wickednesse , or Idolatrie .

So saithe S. Augustine , Augusti . De mirabilib . Sacrae Scripturae , Lib. 1. Cap. vltimo . Nemo conscius erat Sepulchri Mosis , ne populus , si cognouisset , vbi esset , adoraret : Noman was made priuie to Moses Graue : leste , if the people had knowen , where his Body had benne , they shoulde adoure it .

Your obiection of the Sacrifice is otherwhere answeared more at large . S. Augustine saithe , In the Former Replie . Artic. 17 Augusti . contra Iudaeos , Cap. 1. Augu. in Psal. 41. Nunc manibus non offerimus Carnem : Sed Corde , & ore offerimus Laudem : Nowe wee offer not vp fleashe with our handes : but with Harte , and mouth wee offer praise . Againe he saithe , Intùs habeo Sacrificium , quo flectam Deum meum : Within mee selfe I haue a Sacrifice , where with I maie pacifie my God .

The Apologie , Cap. 17. Diuision . 1. & 2.

When Eldras went about to repaire the ruines of the Temple of God , he sente not to Ephesus , although the moste beautiful and gorgeous Temple of Diana were there : and when he purposed to restore the Sacrifices and ceremonies of God , he sente not to Rome , although peraduenture he had heard , that there were the solemne Sacrifices called Hecatombae , and other called Solitaurilia , Lectisternia , and Supplicationes , and Numa Pompilius Ceremonial Bookes , or Manuals , or Portueses . He thought it yenough for him , to let before his eies , and folowe the Paterne of the Olde Temple , whiche Salomon at the beginninge builded , according as God had appointed him , and also those olde customes and ceremonies , whiche God him selfe had written out by special woordes for Moses .

The Prophete Aggaeus , after the Temple was repaired againe by Esdras , and the people mighte thinke , they had a very iuste cause to reioice on theire owne behalfe , for so greate a benefite receiued of Almighty God , yet made he then al burst out into teares , bicause that they whiche were yet aliue , and had seene the former buildinge of the Temple , before the Babylonians destroied it , called to minde , howe far of it was yet , from that beautie , and excellencie , whiche it had in the olde times past before . For then in deede would thei haue thought the Temple woorthily repaired , if it had answeared to the Anciente Paterne , and to the Maiestie of the firste Temple . S. Paule , bicause he woulde amende the abuse of the Lordes Supper , whiche the corinthians euen then begonne to corrupt , he set before them christes Institution , to folowe , saieinge : I haue deliuered vnto you , that thinge , that I firste receiued of the Lorde . And , when Christe confuted the Errour of the Phariseis , Ye muste , saithe he , retourne to the firste beginninge : for from the beginninge it was not thus . And , when he found great fault with the Priestes for their vncleanenesse of life , & couetousnesse , & would cleanse the Temple from al euil Abuses , This house , saith he , at the first beginning was a House of Praier , wherein al the people might deuoutely , and sincerely praie togeather . And so it were your parte to vse it now also at this daie . For it was not builded to the ende it should be a denne of theues . Likewise al the good and commendable Princes mentioned of in the Scriptures , were praised specially by these woordes , that they had walked in the waies of theire Father Dauid : That is , bicause they had retourned to the Firste and Original Fundation , and had restoared the Religion euen to the perfection wherein Dauid leaft it . And therfore , when we likewise saw , that al thinges were quite trodden vnder foote by these men , & that nothing remained in the Temple of God , but pitieful spoiles , and decaies , wee reckened it the wisest , and the safeste waie , to sette before our eies those Churches , whiche we knewe for a suertie , that they neuer had erred , and yet neuer had , neither Priuate Masse , nor Praiers in a strange , and Barbarous Language , nor this Corruption of Sacramentes , and other toies .

And , for so mutche as our desire was , to haue the Temple of the Lorde restored anew , we would seeke none other Fundation , than the same , which , we knewe , was longe agone laide by the Apostles , that is to wite , Our Saueour Iesus Christ . And , for so mutche as wee hearde God him selfe speakinge vnto vs in his Woorde , and sawe also the notable Examples of the Olde , and Primitiue Churche : againe , how vncertaine a mater it was , to waite for a General Councel , and , that the successe thereof woulde be mutche more vncertaine : but specially , for so mutche as we were moste ascertained of Goddes Wil , and therefore counted it a wickednesse to be too careful , and ouercumbred about the Iudgementes of Mortal Menne , wee coulde no longer stande takinge aduise with fleashe , and bloude , but rather thought good , to doo the same thinge , that bothe might rightly be donne , and hath many a time benne donne , aswel of other good men , as also of many Catholique Bishoppes : that is , to remedie our own Churches by a Prouincial Synode . For thus wee knowe , the Olde Fathers vsed to put maters in experience , before thei came to the Publique Vniuersal Councel . There remaine yet at this daie Canons , written in Councelles of Free Citties , as of Carthage vnder Cyprian , as of Ancyra , Neocesarea , and Gangra , whiche is in Paphlagonia , as somme thinke , before that the name of the General Councel at Nice was euer hearde of . After this fashion in Olde time did they spedily meete with , and cutte shorte those Heretiques , the Pelagians , and the Donatistes at home , by Priuate Disputation , without any General Councel . Thus also , when the Emperour Constantius euidently , and earnestly tooke parte with Auxentius , the Bishop of the Arians faction , Ambrose , the Bishop of the Christians , appealed , not vnto a General Councel , where he sawe no good coulde be donne , by reason of the Emperours might , & greate laboure : but onely to his owne Cleregie , and People , that is to saie , to a Prouincial Synode . And thus it was decreed in the councel at Nice , that the Bishoppes shoulde assemble twise euery yeere . And in the councel at carthage it was decreed , that the Bishoppes shoulde meete togeather in eche of their Prouinces , at leaste once in the yeere : whiche was donne , as saithe the councel at chalcedon , of pourpose , that if any Errours , or Abuses had happened to springe vp any where , they might immediately at the firste entrie be destroied , euen where they firste began . So likewise when Secundus and Palladius reiected the councel at Aquileia , bicause it was not a General and common councel , S. Ambrose Bishop of Millaine made answeare , that no man ought to take it for a newe , or straunge mater , that the Bishoppes of the Weast Parte of the world did calle togeather Synodes , & make Priuate Assemblies in their Prouinces , for that it was a thing before then vsed by the Weaste Bishoppes not seldome , and by the Bishoppes of Graecia vsed oftentimes and commonly to be donne . And so Charles the Greate beinge Emperoure , helde a Prouincial councel in Germanie , for puttinge awaie Images , contrarie to the Seconde councel at Nice . Neither pardy euen amongest vs is this so very a strange , and new a trade . For wee haue had ere nowe in Englande Prouincial Synodes , and haue gouerned our churches by home made Lawes . What shoulde one saie more ? Of a truthe , euen those greatest councelles , and where moste Assemblie of people euer was ( whereof these menne vse to make sutche an exceedinge rekeninge ) compare them with al the churches , whiche throughout the worlde acknowledge , & professe the Name of christe , and what els , I praie you , can they seeme to bee , but certaine Priuate councelles of Bishoppes , and Prouincial Synodes ? For admitte peraduenture , Italie , Fraunce , Spaine , Englande , Germanie , Denmarke , and Scotlande meete togeather : if there wante Asia , Graecia , Armenia , Persia , Media , Mesopotamia , Egypte , Ethiopia , India , and Mauritania , in al whiche places there bee bothe many christian menne and also Bishoppes : howe can any man , beinge in his right minde , thinke sutche a councel to be a General councel ? And , where so many partes of the worlde doo lacke , howe can they truely saie , they haue the consente of the whole worlde ? Or what manner of councel , weene you , was the same laste at Tridente ? Or howe might it bee termed a General Councel , whereas out of al Christians Kingedomes and Nations , there came vnto it but onely fourtie Bishoppes , and of the same , somme so conninge , that they might be thought meete , to bee sente home againe , to learne theire Grammare , and so wel learned , that they had neuer studied Diuinitie ?

M. Hardinge .

Your waitinge for a general Councel was not vncertaine . For at the settinge foorthe of your Apologie , it was farre and wel entred , and almost ended . What so euer successe thereof should folow , ye ought not to haue refused it * * Vntruthe . For in many respectes it was vnlawful . beinge in al respectes lawful .

Your assurance of Gods wil is none . That is but your common biewoorde , as it hath alwaies benne of Heretikes . Ye ought to haue shewed good euidence for your beinge sure of Gods wil , before ye attempted these greate and dangerous changes in Religion . Neither becommeth it you to cal the determinations of a General Councel the iudgementes of mortal men , so mutche as concerneth declaration of necessarie pointes of faithe , but the promptinge and teachinge of the Holy Ghoste .

As for your prouincial Synode , it was none . Synodes cannot be keapte without Bishops . Before ye claime the name of a Synode for your packinge and hudlinge togeather , ye muste proue your selues Bishops , whiche ye are not able to doo . What so euer ye saie , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe , by many examples soone reproued . there were neuer good men , nor Catholike Bishops , that kepte prouincial Synodes , contrarie to approued and lawful General Councels , * * Vntruthe . For our Synode is moste agreeable to the Olde Councelles . as your Synode is moste contrary . Neither can ye pretend , that ye folowed any olde fathers , puttinge thinges in experience before the comminge to an Vniuersall Councel .

Your Councel prouincial holden in Germanie by Charles the greate , againste the seconde Nicene Councel general , ‡ ‡ A greate Vntruthe , As it maie soone appeare . is a false forged matter , as the Booke againste Images is , whiche one Eli Phili the man in the Moones sonne , Caluine , Illyricus , and other Heretikes haue fathered vpon that moste godly , and Catholike Emperoure .

The Councel , whiche you meane , was a Godly , and a Catholike Councel , holden at Franck forde by Pope Adrian , and Charles the greate , * * Vntruthe . For the woordes be plaine , Pseudosynodus pro Adorandis Imaginibus , abdicata est . Ado. againste the wicked Councel of the Heretikes named * Imagebreakers , whiche they helde a litle before that at Constantinople , whiche of those Heretikes was called the seuenth , and general , of the Catholikes Pseudosynodus , that is to saie , the false or forged Councel . Of bothe these Councels , thus writeth Abbas Vrspergensis , so mutche commended of Melanchthon : In praefat. ad Ducem Bauariae . The Councel whiche a fewe yeeres before was assembled at Constantinople , in the time of Irene and Constantine her sonne , of them called the seuenth and Generall ( in this Councel holden at Frankforde ) was repealed and put awaie by consente of al , as voide and superfluous , so as from thence foorthe it shoulde be named neither the seuenth ; nor ought els .

If you beleue not this , as the witnes of a Catholike writer , then beleue Anselmus Rid an erneste professour of your owne the newest Gospell . In Catalogo annorum & principum , &c. Bernae impresso , anno . 1550. In additionib . ad Carion . Pantaleo . Who writeth that Adrian the Bishop of Rome , and Kinge Charles , at the Councel holden at Frankforde , execrated , and accursed as Heretical , the Councel of the Empiere of Constantinople and of the Greekes , whiche they helde for th abolishinge of Sainctes Images . Those be his very woordes . Beleue Peucerus Philip Melancthons sonne in lawe writinge , that the Councel of Nice , was kepte by common consente of the Greeke Emperoure and of Charles . If the seconde Councel of Nice , whiche was altogeather for Images , was holden by consente of Charles , howe helde he a Councel in Germanie , for puttinge awaie Images , againste the Councel of Nice ? Beleue Carion , and specially Pantaleo of Zurich , a man of your owne the moste Euangelical Religion , who vpon warrante of th authoritie of Regino writeth , that the Councel of Frank forde abrogated , and disanulled the Greekes Councel , that was againste the woorship of Images . Briefely , howe falsely you and sundrie other of your secte haue herein belied that woorthy Prince Charles the greate , it maie easely appeare by that Paulus Aemylius writeth of him : That he sente twelue Bishops out of Fraunce to the Councel then holden at Laterane in Rome , in whiche the Imagebreakers false named and forged Councel was abrogated .

Where of General Councels ye make priuate and prouincial Synodes , ye doo bisides learninge , reason , and custome of the Churche . A Councel is not accompted general bicause Bishops of al Countries vnder Heauen be assembled , ‡ ‡ by this Rule , the Councel of Tridente was not General . but bicause many be assembled , and al be lawfully called . Els in times , when Heresies raigne , the Churche should neuer haue the necessarie remedie of a general Councel : for alwaies Heretikes woulde refuse to come to it , as ye haue , to come to the late Councel at Trente .

In Persia , Media , Egypte , Mauritania , I wene , ye finde fewe Bishops at this daie , nor many in the other Countries , whiche ye recken , and those in manner altogeather ignorant , and schismatikes . Yet the Patriarkes of Assyria , or Syria Orientalis , and of Armenia , who of late yeres were at Rome , haue for theire Prouinces bothe subscribed to the Councel of Trente , * * Vntruthe , withoutshame , or measure . and receiued the whole Decrees of the same for theire peoples .

Your reporte of fourty Bishops onely present at the Councel of Trent , and of their slender lerning , is as true , as your Doctrine contrary to that Councel is , ‡ ‡ Vntruthe manifeste . Reade the Recordes . & Subscriptions of the same Councel . that is to saie , in plaine termes , starke false . It is wel knowen there were at this late Councel of Trent in this Popes time , wel neare two hundred Bishops .

The B. of Sarisburie .

What hope wee might conceiue of your Late Chapter of Tridente , wée were sufficiently warned by the former , holden vnder Pope Paulus . 3. and Pope Iulius . 3. wherein , notwithstandinge your many yéeres studie , and greate conference of so many , and so Learned , and so excellente , and so mutche a doo , yet in the end , yée were neuer hable , neither to suppresse your open stewes , nor to auoide your Priestes Concubines , nor to cause your Bishoppes to be residente vpon theire Charge , and to doo theire deuties , nor to resolue vs , whether the Pope be aboue the Councel , Omnipotentis Dei benignitaie , & Apostolorum Petri , & Pauli Authoritate freti . Ambros . Catharinus . or the Councel aboue the Pope . In the Summone , and firste Entrie of your Assemblie there , Pope Paule had forgotten Christe , and leafte him quite out of Companie , and supplied the wante of him , with the Authoritie of Peter , and Paule . An other of your Reuerende Fathers there , maketh Marie the Blessed Virgine , Equal with Christe , and calleth her , his most Faithful Felowe : Fidelissimam Christi Sociam . An other of the same Companie telleth vs , that the Pope is the Light , that is comme into the worlde : Papa Lux venit in Mundum . To be shorte , the whole Issue , and Conclusion of al your dooinges there , by the ful agréemente of al your Fathers , Cornel. Episcop. Bitontinus . Sessione . 6. Salua semper in omnibus Sedis Apostolicae Authoritate . hangeth vpon the Popes onely pleasure . And , by your Doctrine , the Pope maie not be controlled , what so euer he doo , neither by the Cleregie , nor by al the whole Worlde . And , what so euer the Pope shal wil , to staie , or passe , your Doctoures telle vs , His onely Wil muste stande for Lawe .

For these , and other like causes , bothe the Emperoure Charles . 5. & also Francise the Frenche King , 9. Qu. 3. Nemo . 10. Sleidan . Anno . 1551. Illyric . in protesta . aduers . Conc. Trident. Pag. 24 August de Vnitate Eccles. ca. 10 Eodem Lib. ca. 7. biside sundrie other Christian Princes , made open Protestation against your said Tridentine Conuenticle , being then remoued to Bononia , and said , it was no lawful General Councel , but onely an Assemblie of a fewe certaine personnes , to serue one mans affection , and to seeke for gaine . Sutche is the opinion , that your owne Princes haue of your Assemblies .

It becommeth vs not , yée saie , to calle the determinations of your General Councelles , the Iudgementes of Mortal menne . Yet it became S. Augustine to calle the same , Concilia Contendentium Episcoporum : The Councelles of quarrelling Bishoppes .

And againe , Humanarum contentionum animosa , & perniciosa certamina : The bolde , and hurteful Contentions of worldly quarrelles . But what néede wée many woordes ? Your owne Panormitane saith , Extra . de Consangui . & Affin . Non debet . Leges Summorum Pontificum , & Conciliorum appellantur Statuta Humana : & fie strictè non possunt dici Ius Diuinum : The Lawes , and Determinations of Popes , and Councelles , are called the Determinations , and Lawes of menne : and so in streite manner of speache , they cannot be called the Lawes of God .

Yee saie , wée are no Bishoppes , and therefore haue no Authoritie , to holde a Synode . 1. Cor. 9. Euen so your Fathers in olde time saide , that S. Paule was no Apostle , and that S. Basile , and S. Hilarie were no Bishoppes . Of S. Paule , it is plaine . S. Hilar. Contra Arianos , & Auxentium . Hilarie saithe of him selfe , Auxentius de Persona mea calumniatus est , damnatum me à Saturnino , audiri , vt Episcopum , non oportere : The Heretique Auxentius laith a quarrel to my personne : and , for as mutche as Saturninus , the Heretique , hath condemned me , he saithe , I maie not be hearde , as a Bishop .

Likewise the Arian Heretiques vsed to saie , that S. Basile , and other like Learned , and Catholique Fathers of that time , were no Bishoppes . S. Basile thereof writeth thus : Councelles General repealed by Prouincial . They calle the Councel of Catholique Bishoppes a Councel of wicked menne : neither wil they once vouchesaue to name them Bishoppes , leste they should seeme to allowe the Decrees , that they haue made againste them . And they challenge them to be no Bishoppes , for that , as they saie , they are the Captaines of a wicked heresie . In like sorte he writeth vnto Patrophilus , Basil . Epist. 72. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Basil . Epist. 82. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . of the Heretique Eustathius : He taketh greate heede , leste he shoulde happily be forced to calle vs Bishoppes . Marc. 1. Thus , M. Hardinge , in denieing vs to be Bishoppes , 1. Cor. 15. yée doo none otherwise , but as other your Predecessours haue donne before you .

Of the Bishoppes , and Prelates of your side , I wil saie nothinge . What your owne frendes haue thought of them , I haue saide before .

As for vs , it shal be sufficient , if wée be onely the voice of a Crier in the Wildernesse . S. Paule , to auouthe his Apostleship , saide openly thus , Gratia Dei sum id quod sum : By the Grace of God , I am , that I am .

Yée saie , a Prouincial Councel maie not repeale a Councel General : as if the Authoritie of your Councelles stoode onely in number , and not in Truthe . Howe be it , the Simple Truthe of God shal ouerweigh Falsehedde , be it neuer so General . But euen thus saide Auxentius , the Arian Heretique , againste S. Hilarie . These be his woordes , Ego quidem , pijssimi Imperatores , existimo , non oportere sexcentorum Episcoporum Vnitatem , post rantos labores , ex contentione Paucorum hominum refricari : My moste Graceous Lordes , in my Iudgemente , it is not meete , after so greate paines taken , for the contentions striuinge of a fewe , to hazarde the consente , and Vnitie of Six hundred Bishoppes . Thus the Heretique Auxentius alleged greate multitudes of his Companions , againste S. Hilarie , and the Catholiques : whiche , he saide , were but a fewe .

Notwithstandinge , it were no harde mater , to shewe euidente Examples of General Councelles , that haue benne ouerruled by Particulares . The General Councel of Nice determined , as you saie , that al appeales , out of al partes of the worlde , shoulde lie to Rome . Yet the Particulare , or Prouincial Councel of Aphrica saithe , Si prouocandum putauerint , non prouocent , nisi ad Aphricana Concilia . Epist. Auxentij apud Hilarium . Concil. Aphrican . Ca. 92. Sozom. li. 1. ca. 23 Concil. Carthaginense . 2. ca. 2. Socra . li. 5. ca 17. Ad transmarina autem qui putauerit appellandum , à nullo intra Aphricam in Communionem recipiatur : If they shal thinke it good to appeale , let them not appeale , but onely to Councelles that shal be holden within Aphrica . But who so euer shal appeale beyonde the Seas ( that is to saie , to Rome ) let noman within Aphrica receiue him to his Communion .

The General Councel of Nice durste not to dissolue Priestes Marriage : The Particulare Councel of Carthage dissolued it vtterly . The order of Priuate , or Auriculare Confession , whiche , in your fantasie , was receiued generally throughout the whole Churche of God , was notwithstandinge quite abolished in the Churche of Constantinople , onely by the Particulare aduise of Nectarius .

Your Blacke Freers in theire Particulare Chapters , Augu. De Ciuita . li. 20. Cap. 26. Viues . haue controlled , and cut of the General Determination of the Councel of Basile , touchinge the conceiuing of our Lady in Original Sinne . And Albertus Pigghius , by his like Particulare Authoritie , Alber. Pigghius in Hierarchi . telleth you , that as wel this Councel of Basile , as also the Councel of Constance , beinge bothe General ( in that they saide , The Councel is aboue the Pope ) Decreed plainely againste Nature , againste the manifeste Scriptures , againste al Antiquitie , and againste the Catholique Faithe of Christe .

Certainely , the Truthe of God is not bounde , neither to Personne , nor to Place . Where so euer it be , either in fewe , or in many , it is euermore Catholique , euen bicause it is the Truthe of God . In the Councel of Constantinople it is written thus , Definierunt pariter , vt , si quid in Prouincia qualiber emergeret , Historia Triparti . Li. 9. ca. 13 Prouinciae Concilio finiretur : The councel of Frankforde . The Fathers agreed al togeather , that , if any mater should happen to growe in the Prouince , by a Councel of the Prouince it shoulde be ended . Likewise saith Isidorus : Manifestum est , quo'd illa , quae sunt per vnamquanque Prouinciam , ipsius Prouinciae Synodus dispenset : sicut Niceno constat decretum esse Concilio : Isidorus in Praefatione in Concilia . It is cleare , that maters happeninge in euery Prouince , by a Prouincial Synode maie be ordered : as it is concluded in the Councel of Nice . Likewise S. Ambrose saithe , Sciebant esse consuerudinem , In Concilio Aquileien . vt in Oriente . Orientalium esset Concilium : Intra occidentem , Occidentalium : They knewe , it was a Custome , that a Councel of the East Bishoppes shoulde be holden in the Easte : and a Councel of the Weaste Bishoppes aparte in the Weaste .

S. Augusti . De Baptismo . contra Donatist . Lib. 2. Cap. 3. Augustine saithe , Literas Episcoporum , & per Sermonem fortè sapientiorem cuiuslibet in ea re peritioris , licet reprehendi , si quid in eis fortè à Veritate deuiatum est : Bishoppes Letters , if they swarue any thinge from the Truthe , maie be controlled by the discretion of any other man , that hath more skil in the mater .

In like sorte Abbate Panormitane your own Doctoure saith , as it hath benne alleged before : Extra , de Electi . & Electi potest . significasti . Abb. In concernentibus Fidem , etiam dictum Vnius Priuati esset praeferendum dicto Papae , fi ille moueretur mehoribus rationibus Noui , & Veteris Testamenti : In maters concerning the Faithe , the saieinge of any one Priuate Man were to be taken before the saieinge of the Pope : if he were moued with better reasons of the Olde , and Newe Testamente , then the Pope .

Howe be it , wée haue not by our Prouincial Councel remoued , or shaken the Authoritie of any one Anciente General Councel , M. Harding . For of al the Anciente Councelles , that haue benne , touchinge the cases , that lie bitwéene vs in controuersie , yee are not yet hable to allege one . Wée haue vpon good causes remoued your Vanities , & vnséemely Folies : & haue restoared againe , so mutch , as in vs late , the Decrees , & Canons of the Anciente Councelles . Hincmarus , the Bishop of Remes , Hinemarus Remensis , Cap. 20. saith thus : Cùm duarum , aut trium Prouinciarum Praesules in vnum conueniunt , si Antiquorum Canonum iustitutione muniti , aliquid praedicationis , aut dogmatis instituunt , quod tamen ab Antiquorum Patrum dogmaribus non discrepet , Catholicum est , quod faciunt : & fortasse dici potest , Vniuersale : When the Bishoppes of twoo , or three Prouinces meete togeather , if they by the warrante of the Olde Councelles , appointe any mater of preachinge , or Doctrine , so that it disagree not from the Doctrine of the Ancient Fathers , it is Catholique , that thei doo , and perhaps maie be called Vniuersal .

The credite of the Emperoure Charles Booke , reportinge the Decrees of the Councel of Frankfoorde , touchinge the Adoration of Images , I leaue wholy to the indifferente discretion of the Reader .

It was Printed , not at Geneua , as you surmise , but in Parise : The setter out proueth it , not to be forged , by many good , and likely Reasons . An Anciente Copie of the same is yet stil to be séene in Rome in Laterane , euen in the Popes owne Librarie . Augustinus Steuchus , Augu. Steuchus , De Donatione Constan . li. 1. ca. 6 Eckius , de Imaginibus . the Maister of the same Librarie , reporteth the same . The Emperour Ludouicus , Sonne vnto Charles , wrote a Booke , yet extante , and remaininge in France , to like purpose . Freere Eckius also beareth witnesse vnto the same Booke of the Emperoure Charles , although vntruely , and guilefully , as his manner is . For he saith , that Charles wrote four Bookes in Defence of Images : whereas in deede the Bookes are directely written againste Images .

Although yée thinke Eli Phili , or , I knowe not , who , maie easily be charged with corruption , & forgerie , yet why the Pope him selfe shoulde corrupte , & forge his owne Booke , in his owne Librarie , against him selfe , it were harde for you to shewe good Reason .

The Councel of Frankforde , yée saie , was Godly , and Catholique , and made Decrees againste Imagebreakers , in the behalfe of Images . Yet notwithstandinge Auentinus saith , A councel General . In Frankfordiensi Concilio Scita Graecorum , de Adorandis Imaginibus , rescissa sunt : Auen●●n . Fol. 3 , 7. In the Councel of Frankford the Grecians Decrees , for the Adoration of Images , Regino . were quite abolished . Regino saithe , Pseudosynodus Graecorum , quam pro adorandis Imaginibus fecerunt , reiecta est : The False Councel of the Greekes , whiche they made for Adoration of Images , was repealed in the Councel of Frankforde . Ado. Likewise Ado saithe , Pseudosynodus , quam Graeci Septimam vocant , pro Adorandis Imaginibus , abdicata est penitùs : The False Councel , whiche the Greekes calle the Seuenthe , wherein Decrees were made for the Adoration of Images , was there vtterly put awaie .

Hincmarus , the Archebishop of Remes , speakinge of the same Councel of Frankforde , Hincmar . ca. 20. saith thus : Pseudolynodus Graecorum destructa est , & penitùs abdicata . De cuius destructione , non Modicum Volumen , quod in Palatio adolescentulus legi , ab eodem Imperatore Romam est per quosdam Episcopos missum : The False Councel of the Greekes was repealed , and vtterly ouerthro wen in the Councel of Frankforde . Whereof , when I was a yong man , I readde a prety bigge Booke in the Popes Palaice in Rome : whiche Booke was sente thither by certaine Bishoppes from the saide Emperoure Charles .

Certaine woordes of the saide Lewde , or False Councel of the Greekes , emongest others , Citantur in Libro Caroli Magni . are these : Qui timet Deum , Adorat Imagines , vt Filium Dei : Qui Adorat Imaginem , & dicit . hoc est Christus , non peccat : peccat , qui non Adorat Imaginem . Qui non Adorat imaginem , est Haereticus . Imago Adoranda est eodom cultu , quo Sancta Trinitas : He , that feareth God , Adoureth an Image , as he would Adoure the Sonne of God : He that Adoureth an Image , and saith , This is Christe , offendeth not : He offendeth , that Adoureth not an Image : He that Adoureth not an Image , is an Heretique : wee muste Adoure an Image with the same Reuerence . wherewith wee Adoure the Holy Trinitie .

Nowe , whether these , and other like woorthy saieinges , and sentences were to be reproued , or no , it maie please you , M. Hardinge , to consider .

That Councel , yée saie , is called General , not , whereun to al Christian Nations doo resorte in déede : but whereunto al Christian Nations are lawfully summoned . As this answeare is true , & not denied , so by the same , your late Councel of Tridente , maie in no wise be called General . For , what lawful Sommones sente your Pope Pius , either to Preter Gian into Ethiopia : or to other Bishoppes , and Christians in India , or ( Europa onely , and that not whole , excepted ) into any other Kingedome , or Countrie of the worlde ?

But yée saie , In Persia , Media , Egypte , Mauritania , and in other Countries adioininge , there are fewe Christians at this daie to be founde . Yet the Authours of Nouus Orbis , Nouus Orbis . discribing the state of the world , saie thus , In al Countries whither so euer yee comme . there be somme Christians . Againe , In India many Kinges , & princes professe Christe . And againe , In Armenia , & cilicia , in a manner , the whole people is Christened . Onely they are subiecte to the Cham of Tartarie . Eol . 324. Their Priestes be maried : And , who so is vnmaried , maie be no Priest .

Yée saie , The Patriarkes of Assyria , and Armenia , ( that neuer sawe , neither the one Countrie , nor the other ) were at Rome ( yée knowe not , when ) and subscribed to al the Articles of your Councel of Tridente . O M. Hardinge , yee can grate no greate credite by open mockerie . It is no harde mater for your Pope , out of his owne garde to make sutche Patriarkes yenough , one for Hierusalem , an other for Constantinople , an other for Alexandria , an other for Antioche , an other for Sidon , an other for Tyrus : and I marueile , if there be not somme Patriarke , one , or other , for Sodome , and Gomorre . These poore Holy , and Hongry Fathers are contented at al times , to yelde theire submissions , and to sette theire handes to what so euer they shal be required , The number of the Bishoppes at Tridente and in the names of those Countries , that they scareely ouer hearde of , to confesse , the Pope their maister , to be al , & more then al. With sutche daine shewes , and visa●des , it pleaseth you to smoothe the worlde .

It yee doubte hereof , yée maie easily finde , that one Augustinus de Roma , in your late Councel of Baūle , Concil. Basilien . Petrus Paluden . Patriar . Hierosolymitanus . Ceremontar . li. 1 Section . 3. hare the name of the Archebishop of Nazareth in lurie : Likewise , that one Petrus Paludensis , a poore Fréere Obsernante , not long sithence , bare the name of the Patriarke of Hierusalem . But what néede moe Examples ? Your own Ceremoniarie of Rome telleth you thus , Consucueruni Autiqui ponere Patriarchas quatuor Ecclesiarum Principalium , inter Episcopos Cardinales mixtim . Nostro tempore ponuntur immediatè post Cardinales . Sunt enim quodammodo 'Titulares : They were woonte in olde times , to place the Patriarkes of the foure Principal Churches togeather with the Cardinal Bishoppes , one with an other . But nowe adaies they are placed nexte beneathe al the Cardinalles . For in a manner they haue nowe nothinge els , but the names of Patriarkes .

It is moste certaine , that the Christian Patriarkes , and Bishoppes of those Countries , wil neither Communicate with the Pope , either in Sacramentes , or in Praiers : nor any wise yéeld to his Authoritie nor geue any manner of honoure , or reuerence to his personne : nomore then to Machomete , or Antichrist : as I haue sufficiently shewed before .

Touchinge the Number of Bishoppes , presente at your Former Assemblie at Tridente , I referre mee selfe to the Recordes of the same . If yée finde there more then Fourtie Bishoppes , I am content to lose my credite . And yet of the same number , Blinde sir Roberte of Scotland , as I haue said before , & M. Pates of England were seely poore Bishoppes , God knoweth , endewed onely with bare names , without Bishoprikes . Flacius Illyricus In protestatione aduersus Conci . Trident. In your later Assemblie , twoo of your Holy Fathers were staine there presently in Aduouterie . By meane of whiche misfortune , your number by so mutche was abated .

These be the greate woorthies of the worlde : These Cornelius Bitontinus , one of the same Companie , calleth the Starres of the Churches , and the Mighty Armie of Goddes Angelles . These haue power to determine maters , that thei neuer vnderstoode , by Authoritie onely , but not by knowledge .

Alphonsus de Castro , Alphansus aduersus Haereses , Lib. 1. Ca 4. Erasmus , In Epistolam Hieronymi ad Eustochium . as I haue shewed you before , saithe thus , It is certaine , that somme Popes be so voide of Learninge , that they vnderstande not the Grammare Rules . Erasmus , speakinge of sundrie the greate Learned of your side , saithe thus , Sibi videntur Semidei , miro supercilio prae se despicientes Grammaticos : Qui si Grammaticae litassent , non ad hunc modum se pueris deridendos propinarent : They thinke them selues halfe Goddes , and with high lookes thei despise poore Grammariens . But if they had wel Learned their Grammare , thei woulde not offer sutche occasions , that children , and babes should scorne at theire folie .

Concerninge the whole mater , your Doctours of Sorbona in Parise haue concluded thus , Vt Concilium legitimè congregetur , sufficit , quo'd solennitas , & forma luris solenniter sit seruata . Articul. 22. Quia , si quis trahere velit hoc in disputationem , vtrùm Praelati , qui ibi sedent , habeant Rectam Intentionem , & vtrùm sint Docti , & vtrùm habeant Scientiam Sacrarum Literarum , & animum obediendi Sanae Doctrinae , esset processus in infinitum : That the Councel be lawfully assembled , it is sufficient , that the Solemnitie , and fourme of Lawe be solemnely obserued . For if a man would caste doubtes , whether the Bishoppes , that sitte in Councel , haue a good Meaninge , and whether they be Learned , and whether they be skilful in the Scriptures , and whether they haue a minde to obeie sounde Doctrine , or no , then wee should neuer make an ende .

These be they , M. Hardinge , to whom yée woulde haue vs to géeue care , what so euer thei saie , euen as to the Secretaries of the Holy Ghoste .

But S. Augustin contrae Cresconi . Lib. 3. Cap. 79. Augustine saithe , Ecclesiae inter nos agitur causa , non mea . Ecclesia in nullo homine spem ponere , à suo didicit Redemptore : It is the Churches cause , that wee talke of , it is not mine . The Churche hath learned of her Redeemer , to put no truste in any man .

The Apologie , Cap. 18. Diuision . 1.

How so euer it bee , the truthe of the Gospel of Iesus Christe dependeth not vpon Councelles , nor , as S. Paule saithe , vpon the Iudgementes of Mortal Creatures . And if they , whiche ought to be careful for Goddes Churche , wil not be wife , but slacke their duetie , and harden their hartes againste God , and his Christe , goeinge on stil to peruerte the right waies of the Lorde , God wil stirre vp the very stones , & make children , and babes cunninge , that there maie euer be somme , to confute these mennes lies .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Hereto M. Hardinge answeareth nothinge els , but thus , The Councel is the Schoole of Truthe : The Bishoppes cannot foreslowe their dueties : The Churche of Rome cannot erre . Whiche tales wee haue so often , and not without wearinesse hearde already . Petrus de Palude , Petrus De Palude , De Potesta . Papae . Arti. 4. emongest other your Doctours saithe , Non est credendum , Ecclesiam Romanam errasse à Fide . Ipsa enim potest è contrario cum Christo dicere , Ego Testimonium perhibeo de meipsa . Testimonium meum verum est : No man maie beleue , that the Churche of Rome maie erre from the Faithe : Contrarywise that Churche maie saie with Christe , I beare witnesse of mee selfe . And my witnesse is iuste , and true . Therefore so longe , as the Churche of Rome can speake for her selfe , there is no doubte , but al is wel .

The Apologie , Cap. 18. Diuision . 2.

For God is able ( not onely without Councelles , but also , wil the Councelles , nil the Councelles ) to maintaine , and anaunce his owne Kingedome . Ful many be the thoughtes of mans harr ( saith Salomon ) but the Counsel of the Lorde abideth stedfast : There is no wisedome , there is no knowledge , there is no counsel against the Lorde . Hilarius in psal. mum 126. Thinges endure not , saithe Hilarius , that be set vp with mannes workemanship : By an other manner of meanes muste the Churche of God be buiided and preserued : For that Churche is grounded vpon the Fundation of the Apostles and Prophetes , and is holden faste togeather by one corner stone , whiche is Christe Iesus .

M. Hardinge .

Where ye saie , that by an other manner of meanes the Churche of God must be builded and preserued , shewe vs what other meanes they are , and we must saie , ye are very cunninge men , who correct , I will not saie , Magnificat , but Christes owne ordinaunce for gouernemente of his Churche , * * By this reckeninge , it appeareth not , that God euer orderned Popes , or Car●●alles , to builde his Churche . who hath ordeined Apostles , Prophetes , Euangelistes , Shepeherdes , and Teachers ( as is before mentioned ) In aedificationem Corporis Christi , To the buildinge vp of the Bodie of Christe , which is his Churche . Ye shall pardon vs if we beleue S. Paule before you . We see what is the marke ye shoote at , The buildinge of Goddes Churche . that the lawfull successours of the Apostles , Prophetes , and Euangelistes , and the lawfull Shepeherdes , and Doctours being put from the buildinge of Christes Body the Churche , your selues maie take the woorke in hande , and gouerne all , set your hartes as reaste , it shal not be so .

The B. of Sarisburie .

In déede Christe hath ordeined Apostles , Prophetes , Euangelistes , Pastours , & Teachers , for the gouernmente of his Churche : notwithstandinge the same be not alwaies allowed to sitte in Councelles , nor be alwaies knowen by Rochetes , or Miters . If God had not prouided other Pastours , & Feeders , bisides your Prelates , the whole Churche might sterue for hunger . S. Paules Woordes be true : but your idle Constructions are vntrue . Wée finde not faulte with Goddes Ordinance : but wée reioice in Goddes Mercie , for that it hath pleased him , to visite his people , and to discouer the multitude of these Vanities , wherewith you haue so longe , and so vncourteously beguiled the worlde . Therefore wée correcte not Magnificat , M. Hardinge , as you saie : but rather wee humbly singe , Te Deum laudamus , and reioice in God our Saueoure . The right , & onely waie of buildinge Goddes House , is , to laie the Fundation thereof vpon the Euerlastinge woorde , and wil of God . 1. Corin. 3. Esai . 8. S. Paule saithe , Other Fundation noman can laie , but the same , that is saide already : whiche is Christe Iesus , The Prophete Esaie saithe , To the Lawe ( of God ) and to the Testimonie . If they speake not accordinge to this Woorde , they shal haue no morninge Lighte . Therefore S. Hilarie saithe , as it is alleged in the Apologie , Aliter extruenda , Hilarius in Psalmum . 126. aliter custodienda Ecclesia est : Fundamentum eius super Prophetas , & Apostolos collocandum est . Ecclesia ita à Deo , id est , Doctrinis Dei aedificata , non concidet : Otherwise muste the Churche be builte , and otherwise muste it be keapte . The Fundation of it must be saide vpon the Apostles , and Prophetes . The Churche beinge thus builte by God , that is to saie , by the Doctrine of God , shal neuer false .

The Apologie , Cap. 19. Diuision . 1.

But marueilous notable , & to very good pourpose , for these daies , bee S. Hieronym . in Naum. Cap. 3. Hieromes woordes : Whom so euer ( saithe he ) the Deuil hathe deceiued , and entised to fal asleepe , as it were with the sweere , and deadely enchauntementes of the Maremaides the Sirenes , those persones doothe Goddes Woorde awake vp , saieing vnto them : Ephes. 5. Arise thou that sleapest , lifte vp thee selfe : and Christe shal geeue thee light . Therefore at the comminge of Christe , of Goddes Woorde , of the Ecclesiastical Doctrine , and of the ful destruction of Niniue , and of that most bewtiful Harlot , then shal the people , whiche heretofore hadde benne cast in a traunce vnder their Maisters , be raised vp , and shal make haste to goe to the Mountaines of the Scriptures : and there shal thei find hilles , Imeanemoses , and losua the Sonne of Nun : other Hilles also , whiche are the Prophetes : and Hilles of the Newe Testament , whiche are the Apostles , & the euangelistes . And when the people shal flee for succoure to sutche Hilles , and shal be exercised in the readinge of this kinde of mountaines , though thei finde not one to teache them ( for the haruest shal be greate , but the labourers few ) yet shal the good desire of the people be wel accepted , in that thei haue gotten them to sutche Hilles : and the Negligence of theire Maisters shal bee openly reproued . These be S. Hieromes woordes , & that so plaine , as there needeth no Interpretour . For they agree so iuste with the thinges , we now see with our eies , haue already comme to passe , that wee maie verily thinke , he meante to foretel , as it were , by the Spirite of Prophesie , and to painte before oure face , the Vniuersal state of oure time : the fal of the moste gorgeous Harlot Babylon : the repairinge againe of Goddes Churche : the blindenesse , and slouthe of the Bishoppes , and the good wil , & forewardenesse of the people . For , who is so blinde , but he seethe , these menne be the Maisters , by whome the people , as saithe S. Hierome , hath benne leadde into erroure , & lulled a sleepe ? Or , who seeth not , that Rome , that is their Niniue , whiche sometime was painted with fairest colours , nowe , her vizarde beeinge pulled of , is bothe better seene , and lesse sette by ? Or , who seeth not , that good menne , beinge awaked , as it were , out of their deade sleepe , at the lighte of the Gospel , and at the voice of God , haue resorted to the Hilles of the Scriptures , waitinge not at al for the Councelles of sutche Maisters ?

M. Hardinge .

Ye wreste the saieinge of S. Hierome to your purpose , that is to saie , so as it may seeme to be spoken against the Churche , that now is , wherein ye make him a Prophete . And that this place mighte sounde the more against the Clergy , to the commendation of the people , and to stirre them to reade the Scriptures : after your accustomed maner ye sticke not to adde some what of your owne in one place : to take awaie a litle of the Doctour in an other place : to alter the woordes in an other place . Who looketh so narrowly for trial of this , as your secretarie thought maliciously , when he wrote it : by diligent conference of this Apologie with S. Herome he shall finde it .

Now , concerninge the right sense of the place , S. Hieromes intent was not , to foretell and paint before our face ( as you saie ) the vniuersall state of our time , but to tell , and declare the meaninge of the Prophete Nalium . ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For S. Hierome in the same place saithe , Haec in Consummatione Mundi magis complentur &c. Hucusque de Mundi ruina . signifiynge the state of the time now paste , to witte , the time of Christes firste comminge into the world : for the woordes do expressely speake thereof . After S. Hieromes exposition , by Niniue , that Prophete meaneth the worlde : by the Assyrian Kinge , the Deuill . And there he prophecieth the ruine of the worlde . and of the Deuill at the comminge of Christe . S. Hierome * * Vntruthe . For he speaketh oftentimes of her : and saithe plainly , that Rome is Babylon . speaketh neuer a woorde of your harlotte Babylon , whereof ye and your vnlearned ministers haue neuer donne bablinge , meaning thereby the Holy Romaine Churche .

First you Sir defender , that penned this geare , haue plaide a false parte by diuidinge the one member of the sentence into twoo : Or rather by puttinge in one woorde , and leauing out an other . For , where S. In Comment. in Nahum . Cap. 3. Hierome hath thus , Et consummationis Niniue speciosissimae quondam Meretricis ( whereby he meante the vndoinge of the Deuils power in the worlde once , that is to saie ‡ ‡ As though sithence the Birthe of Christe , there neuer had benne , neither Niniue , nor Babylon , nor Ignorance , nor Negligence in the Cleregie . before the comminge of Christe , a most beautiful harlotte ) that you might geue occasion of reproch to the Romaine Church , which falsefiynge the doctours sense you vnderstand by Niniue , you haue set it forthe thus , Et consummationis Niniue , & speciosissimae meretricis . Then you descant vpon it , as though S. Hierome had so written , and saie that he setteth before our face the falle of the most gorgeous harlot Babylon , whiche you interpret to be Rome . And then further corrupting S. Hieromes sense , you make him to speake of the repairinge againe of Goddes Churche , as though at this daie it were by defaulte of the catholike Clergie fallen downe , and should be set vp againe by you and your Ministers : also of the blindenesse of the Bishops of our time , that they be the maisters by whome the people hath benne lead into errour , and lulled asleepe . And hereto ye adde , as saithe Hierome , where S. Hierome saithe not so neither of the maisters at Christes first comminge , but of the Deuil , who brought the people asleepe , by whome he vnderstandeth ‡ ‡ No doubte : if there be credite sufficiente in this Commentarie . not the people that liueth now , but them that were deceiued by the Deuill vnder euill maisters , before the comminge of Christe .

But because this defender thinketh be hath acquited him selfe like a Clercke by alleaginge this place out of S. Hierome against the Catholike Churche , I require al the learned to reade ouer what S. Hierome writeth vpon the ende of the Prophet Nahum , from these woordes of the texte , In Nahum . Cap. 3. Brucus irruit & euolauit &c. foorth to the ende of the Chapter , and most diligently to marke that goeth immediatly before the place by this defender alleaged . As for thee , good reader , that vnderstandest not the Latine tonge , I assure thee , S. Hierome speaketh those woordes * * As though the Popes Clerkes were not Heretiques , and Teachers of False Doctrine . of Heretikes , * of teachers of euil doctrine , of suche as will not beare the voice of the Churche , of whiche sorte this new english Clergie is . And in that discourse he commendeth to true beleuers , not onely the Hilles , that is , the written Scriptures , but also the doctrine of the Churche ( as thou seest in the allegation put in the Apologie ) and before that be commendeth likewise Latibula Doctorum , the Caues of the Doctours , in which the faithfull people also as by flyinge to the Hilles , couche them selues safe from danger of the Deuill stirrer of Heresies . So that if the place be well scanned , by that allegation they shall seeme to haue made a rodde to whippe them selues . The whole place beinge ouer longe to recire here , a sentence or two . that are specially meante of suche as they be , maie suffise .

Vae itaque his &c. wo then to those , whiche are teachers of peruerse doctrines in Niniue , by which is signified the worlde . Psalm. 151. And aptly to them it is saide , thy Shepeherdes haue stepte , for they haue geuen sleepe to their eies , and slomberinge to their eieleddes . And therefore haue they not founde a place for our Lorde , nor atabernacle for the God of Iacob . Neither haue they hearde out of Ephrata , that is to saie , Frugifera Ecclesia , the fruitefull Churche . Nor haue they founde the Churche in the thickettes of the woddes . Neither onely the Shepeherdes of this rifferaffe ( mixticij huius , be meaneth by 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , whiche is the woorde of the seuenty translatours , all sortes of people deceiued by false teachers ) and of the locuste ( they are the capitaine Heretikes ) whiche in time of froste sitteth in the hedges , haue slepte : but by the Kinge of Assyrians ( who is the Deuill ) they haue ben lulled aslepe . For alwaies it is the studie of the Deuil , how he may bringe asleepe waking soules . Thus S. Hierome .

Now I reporte me to those that haue eies to see , whether out newe Cleregy may not serme those , whome the Deuill hath lulled asleepe ( gladly I vse their owne terme ) in their newe deuises , in their owne liked conceites , in their Schismes , and Heresies , in their vniuste possession of Benefices , and Bishoprikes , those yet liuinge , to whome the right belongeth , in their presumption of that office they are not duely called vnto , in their malice towarde the Churche , in the continuall satisfiynge of their fleashly lustes , and in their vnlawfull and lecherous embracinges .

Let them feare the dreadfull sayinge of S. Hierome folowinge straight after their allegation : Non est sanitas contritioni tuae , &c. There is no health for thy bruze , thy woonde swelleth . Therefore the rifferaffe of Niniue can not be healed , because he laieth not downe his pride , and the woonde is alwaies freshe , and daily he is woonded whiles the Deuill striketh at him . And when all commeth to all , there is no health for his bruze . For although he seeme to him selfe hole , yet is his soule broken , and crusshed with the bytle of the whole earth , that fownceth downe vpon it . And it is not healed , because continually it is lifted vp ( with pride ) . But if it become humble , and submit it selfe to Christe , Psalm. 50. a contrite and an humble harte God despiseth not . Thus describeth S. Hierome these menne . Neither let them saie , they submitte them selues to Christe , whome and whose Gospell they haue so muche in their mouthes , vntill they folowe his doctrine , sayinge of the gouernours of his Churche , He that heareth you , Luc. 10. heareth me : and he that despiseth you , despiseth me . And this muche for answeare to the place of S. Hierome .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here is a marueilous woorke . Sir Defender singeth discante , and quiteth him selfe like a Clerke : He altereth S. Hieromes minde : He saithe , S. Hierome saithe so , where as S. Hierome saith not so : He of Prowde Niniue , hath made the Churche of Rome : He of the Diuel , hath made Antichriste : He bableth aboute Babylon : He diuideth one sentence into twoo : He putteth in one woorde , and leaueth out an other : He is bulled a sleepe : He scattereth his rifferaffe : He doothe , and saithe , I knowe not , Rome . Niuiue . Babylon . what , what so euer it shal please M. Hardinge of his courtesie to reporte .

Touchinge this heinous imagined corruption , and alteringe of S. Hieromes minde , Chrysost. in Matthae . Homil. 19. S. Chrysostome saith . Qui mendax est , neminem putat verum dicere , ne ipsum quidem Deum : He that him selfe is a lier , imagineth , that noman saithe the truthe , no not God him selfe . With sutche corruption , & change of woordes , Palladius , a lewde felowe , thought him selfe sommetime hable to charge S. Hierome . S. Hieromes woordes thereof are these : Hieronym . Ad Pammach . De optimo genere Interpretandi . Concionatur , me esse Falsarium : me Verbum non expressisse de Verbo : pro Honorabili , dixisse Charissimum . Tom. 2. Haec , & huiusmodi nugae , mea crimina sunt : He preacheth , and publisheth abroade , In eadem Epist. that I am a Falsarie : that I haue not precisely translated woorde for woorde : That I , in sleede of this woorke , Honorable , haue written , deerely Beloued . These thinges , and sutche trifles are laide to my charge .

To these folies S. Hierome answeareth thus , Cùm ipsa Epistola doceat , nihil mutatum esse de sensu , nec res additas , nec aliquod dogma confictum , faciunt nae isti intelligendo , vt nihil intelligant : & dum alienam imperitiam volunt coarguere , produnt suam : Whereas the Epistle it selfe declareth , that there is no alteration made in the sense , and that there is neither mater of substance added , nor any Doctrine imagined , verily by their greate cunninge , they proue them selues fooles : and seekinge to reproue other mennes vnskilfulnesse , they betraie theire owne .

Yée saie , S. Hierome in these woordes spake nothinge , neither of the Churche of Christe , nor of your Cleregie of Rome . For trial whereof , let S. Hierome him selfe be hearde to speake , as a witnesse indifferent of him selfe . First in other places he saith thus ( To this place we shal resorte afterward ) Dicimus , Hieronym . in Michaeam , Ca. 3. Non venient super nos mala . Audiamus sententiam Domini . Sion , & Hierusalem , & Mons Templi speculatotium , & visio pacis , & Templus Christi in consummatione , & in fine : We saie , There shal no hurte comme vpon vs . Let vs heare the saieinge of our Lorde . Sion , and Hierusalem , and the Mounte , that is the Watche Tower of the Temple , and the sighte of peace , and the Temple , or Churche of Christe , shal be consumed , and brought to an ende . These woordes be plaine : not onely that haute Lady Niniue , but also the Churche , or Temple , that beareth the Name of Christe , shal be consumed , and broughte to an ende .

Likewise he saithe , Hieronym . in Sophoniam . Ca. 2. Quos Deus inseruit ex Oleastro in radicem Bonae Oliuae , si illi immemores recesserint à Conditore suo , & Adorauerint Assyrium , cur illos Deus non euertat , & ad eandem sitim reducat , in qua priùs fuerunt ? Euen they , whome God hath graffed from out of the Wilde Oliue tree , into the roote of the Good oliuie , ( that is to saie , the children of the Churche ) if they forgeate them selues , and flee from theire Maker , and woorship the Kinge of Assyria ( that is to saie , Antichriste , or any other Creature , that is not God ) why maie not God ouerthrowe them , and bringe them to the same thirste , and drouth , they were in before ?

Againe he saithe , Hierony . in Matthae . Ca. 24. Li. 4. Abominatio Desolationis , intelligi potest omne dogma peruersum : quod cum viderimus stare in Loco Sancto , id est , in Ecclesia , debemus fugere de Iudaea ad Montes : The Abomination of Desolation , maie be taken for any Wicked Doctrine : whiche when wee shal see standinge in the Holy Place , that is to saie , in the Churche of Christe , then wee muste flee from Iurie to the Mountaines ( of the Scriptures ) .

And againe likewise he saithe , Paxillus auferetur de Loco Fideli , hoc est , de Ecclesia , per impietatem quotidiè succrescentem : & , qui super eum antè pependerant Fide , posteà infidelitate frangentur , & cadent , & peribunt : The Pinne , or barre ( whereby he meaneth Christe , for that the Faitheful hange vpon him , as in a house thinges are hanged vp safely vpon a Pinne , ) shal be taken awaie from the place , that was Faitheful , that is to saie , from the Churche , bicause of the wickednesse , that daiely groweth : And they , that before honge vpon him by Faithe , afterwarde , by infidelitie , shal be broken downe , Rome , Babylon , and falle , and perishe .

What so euer Glose yée shal geue to the other woordes of S. Hierome , certainely these woordes are plaine , and euidente , & wil not easily receiue your Glose . Likewise S. Gregorie , speakinge , not of the Firste comminge of Christe , but of the time , Gregor. in Iob. Ca. 9. Li. 19. Ca. 29. that is discribed , to be before the ende of the worlde , saithe thus : In diebus illis Ecclesia , quasi quodam senio debilitata , per Praedicationem parere Filio● non valebit : In those daies the Churche , as beinge ouermutche weakened with age , shal not be hable by Preachinge to beare Children .

Now , Hieronym . In Hieremi . Lib. 1. Ca. 4. touchinge your Cleregie , S. Hierome him selfe saithe , Ipsi quoque Sacerdotes , qui Legem Domini docere deberent , & subiectos sibi populos à Leonis furore defendere , quodam stupore infatuati , vertentur in amentiam : The Priestes them selues , that ought to teache the Lawe of our Lorde , and to defende the people , committed to their charge , from the furie of the Lion ( that is the Diuel ) beinge amazed , and berefte of their wittes , shal be turned into madnesse .

Againe he saithe , Hieronym . in Naum. Ca. 3. Scit Rex Assyrius , non posse se Oues decipere , nisi Pastores ante consopierit . Semper Diaboli studium est , vigilantes animas consopire : The Kinge of Assyria ( that is the Diuel ) knoweth , that he can neuer deceiue the Sheepe , onlesse firste he caste the Sheepeheardes into a traunce . It is euermore the Diuels policie , to laie watcheful Soules asleepe .

And therefore againe he saithe , Hieronym . In Sopboniam , Ca. 1. Auferet Dominus nomina Vanae Gloriae , & Admirationis falsae , quae versantur in Ecclesia . Sed & nomina Sacerdotum cum Sacerdotibus , qui frustrà sibi applaudunt in Episcopali nomine , & in Presbyterij Dignitate , & non in opere : God wil take awaie the names of Vaine Glorie , and False Credite , that are in the Churche : and the Names of Priestes , togeather with the Priestes them selues , that vainely boaste them selues of the Name of Bishoppes , and of the Dignitie of Priestehoode , but doo nothinge .

But aboute Babylon , yée saie , yee neuer make an ende of Bablinge . What Bablinge then , Hieronym . In Catalogo Scriptor . Eccle. in Marco . I praie you , made S. Hierome , when he saide , Petrus in Prima Epistola , sub Nomine Babylonis , Romam significat ? S. Peter in his Firste Epistle meante Rome vnder the name of Babylon .

S. Augustine saithe , Roma est quasi Secunda Babylon : Rome is as the Seconde Babylon . August . De Genesi contra Manichae . Li. 2. Ca. 1. Augustin . in Psalm . 44. Primasius in Apocalyp . Ca. 16. Againe he saithe , Ciues Babyloniae nos fecerunt : dimisimus Creatorem : Adorauimus Creaturam : dimisimus eum , à quo facti sumus : Adorauimus illud , quod fecimus : They haue made vs the Citizens of Babylon : ( for ) wee haue leafte oure Creatoure , and haue woorshipped a Creature : wee haue leafte him , that made vs : and haue Adoured that thinge , that wee made oure selues .

Likewise saithe Primasius , Tunc Babylon cadet , quando nouissimè potestatem persequendi Sanctos acceperit : Then shal Babylon comme to grounde , when she shal laste of al take power to persequute the Sainctes of God .

And againe , In idem Caput . Vidi Mulierem sedentem super Vestem Coccineam , plenam Nominibus Blasphemiae , habentem Capita Septem. Septem Capita dicit Septem Montes : Romam , quae super Septem Montes praesidet , significans : I sawe a Wooman sittinge vpon a scarlet roabe , fulle of Names of Blasphemie , hauinge Seuen Heades . Seuen Heades he calleth the Seuen Mountes , vpon whiche Rome was builte : meaninge thereby Rome , that sitteth vpon Seuen Hilles .

Ludouicus Vi●es , August . De Ciuitate Dei , Lib. 18. Ca. 22. Viues . Ambrosius Ansbertus in Apacalyp . Li. 6. your owne very frende , saith thus : Hieronymus , ad Marcellam scribens , non aliam existimat discribi &c. S. Hierome , writinge vnto Marcella , thinketh , there is none other Babylon discribed by S. Iohn in his Reuelations , but the Cittie of Rome . Ambrosius Ansbertus saithe , Vbi est illa dudum super omnia Regna exaltata Inclyta Roma , Babylon Secunda ? Where is that Noble Rome , euanced of late aboue al Kingedomes , the Seconde Babylon ?

I passe ouer Beatus Rhenanus , The people shal flee to the scriptures . Auentinus , Petrarcha , Dantes , and a greate number of other youre owne Doctours , mentioned before in place more conueniente : Al whome ye maie not of youre courtesie charge with bablinge .

Yee saie , S. Hierome meante not the state of our time : but onely the state of the time nowe paste : that is to saie , as it is saide before , The time of Christes firste Comminge into the Worlde . And this , in your margine , yee cal the right sense of S. Hierome truely reported . Howe be it , youre Reader , that hath eyes to see , maie easily finde , that this is youre owne onely sense , M. Hardinge , and not S. Hieromes . For , I beseeche you , howe was Niniue fully destroied , or what Gospelles were there written , Hieronym . In Naum. Ca. 3. The true sense of S. Hieroms woordes . at the Firste Comming of Christe into the worlde ? S. Hieromes meaninge , and speache is plaine , The people , before the seconde Comminge of Christe , whiche shal be in Glorie , shal leaue theire negligente , and idle Scholemaisters , whiche haue of longe time deceiued them : and shal flee to the Mountaines of the Scriptures . And , al be it they finde not one to teache them , yet shal theire desire , and endeuoure be accepted before God , for that thei haue sought vnto these Mountaines : and the negligence , and slouthefulnesse of theire Maisters shal be reproued .

To like pourpose S. Chrysostom . In Gene. Homi. 36. Chrysostome saithe , Fieri non potest , vt is , qui Diuinis Scripturis magno studio , feruentique desiderio vacat , semper negligatur . Licet enim desit nobis hominis Magisterium , tamen ipse Dominus , supernè intrans in corda nostra , illustrat mentem : rationi iubar suum infundit : detegit occulta : doctorque fit eorum , quae ignoramus : tantùm si nos ea , quae à nobis sunt , afferre velimus : It cannot possibly be , that he , that with earneste studie , and feruente desire readeth the Scriptures , shoulde euermore be foresaken . For although wee wante the instruction of man , yet God him selfe from aboue entringe into our hartes , lighteneth our minde : poureth his beames into our wittes : openeth thinges , that were hidden : and becommeth vnto vs a Scholemaister of that , wee knowe not : onely if wee wil doo so mutche , as in vs lieth .

So saithe S. Hierome , Postquàm conuersi fuerint , & Clarum Christi Lumen aspexerint , Hierony . In Esai . lib. 12. ca 49. Psalm. 23. pascent in vijs , & in semitis sanctarum Scripturarum : & dicent , Dominus pascit me , & nihil mihi deerit : When they shal be turned , and shal beholde the cleare light of Christe , they shal feede in the pathes , and waies of the Holy Scriptures , and shal saie , The Lorde feedeth me : and I shal wante nothinge .

Againe he saithe , Circundabit sibi , quasi murum firmissimum , Scripturarum doctrinam : ne ad interiora eius possit hostis irrumpere : Hieronym . In Naum. Cap. 3. He wil enclose him selfe with the Doctrine of the Scriptures , as with a stronge walle : that the Enimie maie not enter into his harte . Againe he saithe , Haec est via : Ambulate in ca. Neque ad Dextram , neque ad Sinistram . Tunc omnes Errores , Hierony . In Esai . lib. 9. Cap. 30. & Idola , & Similitudines Veritatis comminnes , atque disperges , & ita iudicabis immunda , vt ●a menstruatae mulieris sordidissimo Sanguini compares : This is the waie : walke in it . Goe neither to the Right hande , nor to the Leafte . Then shalt then breake , and scatter al Errours , and Idoles , and Countrefeite likenesse of the Truthe : and shalt iudge them to be so filthy , that thou shalt liken them to moste vile , and lothesome bloude .

But , for as mutche as yee saie , Al these woordes of S. Hierome perteiue vnto somme other mater , I know not what , and not vnto the ouerthrowe of Babylon , or fal of Antichriste , that shal be before the ende of the worlde , notwithstandinge S. Hieromes woordes of them selfe be plaine yenough , yet maie it please you , to consider these woordes of S. Chrysostome , Chrysostom . In Matt. Homi 49. touchinge the same . Thus he saithe : Tunc , qui in Iudaea sunt , fugiant ad Montes , id est , qui sunt in Christianitate , conferant se ad Scripturas . Montes sunt Scripturae Apostolorum , & Prophetarum , &c. Sciens Dominus tantam confusionem rerum in nouissimis diebus esse futuram , ideò mandat , vt Christiani , qui sunt in Christianitate , volentes firmitatem accipere Fidei verae , ad nullam rem fugiant , nisi ad Scripturas . Alioqui , si ad alias res respexerint , scandalizabuntur , & peribunt , non intelligentes , quae sit Vera Ecclesia . Et per hoc incident in abominationem desolationis : Then let them , that be in Iewrie , flee vnto the Mountaines : that is to saie , let them , that be in Christes profession , flee to the Scriptures . The Scriptures of the Apostles , and Prophetes , be the Mountaines , &c. Our Lorde knowinge , that there shoulde be sutche confusion in the laste daies , therefore commaundeth , that Christian menne , that beleue in Christe , willinge to haue an assurance of the True Faith , shoulde haue recourse to nothinge els , but vnto the Scriptures . Otherwise , if they haue regarde to any other thinge , they shal be offended , and perishe , not vnderstandinge , what is the true Churche . And by meane hereof they shal falle into the Abomination of desolation .

Here , M. Hardinge , no Glose wil serue . Certainely , these woordes were spoken , not of the Firste comminge of Christe into the worlde , as you imagine : but of the Kingedome of Antichriste , and of the Ende , & consummation of the worlde .

Hereof S. Gregorie saithe thus : Gregori . In Iob. ca. 29. li. 19. ca ▪ 9. Ecclesia post eosdem dies , quibus deprimitur , tamen circa finem temporum grandi praedicationis Virtute roborabitur : The Churche after these daies of her affliction , shal afterwarde notwithstandinge be strengthened with greate Power , and mighte of preachinge .

The Apologie , Cap. 20. Diuision . 1.

But , by youre fauoure , somme wil saie , these thinges ought not to haue benne attempted without the Bishop of Romes commaundemente , forsomutche as he onely is the knotte and bande of Christian Societie : He onely is that Prieste of Leuies order , whom God signified in the Deuteronomie , from whome counsel in maters of weight , and true iudgemente ought to be sette : and , who so obeieth not his iudgemente , the same man ought to bee killed in the sight of his brethren : and , that no Mortal Creature hathe Authoritie to be Iudge ouer the Pope , whatsoeuer he doo : that Christe reigneth in Heauen , and the Pope , in Earthe : that the Pope alone can doo as mutche , as Christe , or God him selfe can doo : bicause Christe , and the Pope haue but one Consistorie : That without him is no Faithe , no Hope , no Churche : and , who so goeth from him , quite casteth awaie , and renounceth his owne Saluation . Sutche talke haue the Canonistes , the Popes Parasites , but with smal discretion , or sobrenesse . For they coulde scantly saie more , at leaste , they coulde not speake more highly of Christ him selfe .

M. Hardinge .

What somme wil saie , wee knowe not . Wee tel you , that your change of Religion , and manifolde Heresies ought not to haue benne attempted at al , neither without the Bishop of Romes commaundemente , nor with his commaundemente . Touching the Bishop of Rome him selfe , you haue neuer donne with him . He is a great blocke in youre waie . And so hath he euer bene in the waie of al Heretikes . Yet could he neuer by you , or them be remoued . To your scoffes againste him , and belieinge of the Canonistes before by you vttered , and here idly repeted , my former answeare maie suffise .

The Apologie , Cap. 20. Diuision . 2.

As for vs truely , we haue fallen from the Bishop of Rome , vpon no manner of worldly respect , or commoditie . And would to Christe he so behaued him selfe , that this falling away needed not : But so the case stoode , that onlesse we leafte him , wee coulde not come to Christe . Neither wil he nowe make any other league with vs , then sutche a one , 1. Reg. 11. as Nahas the Kinge of the Ammonites woulde haue made in times paste with them of the Cittie of Iabes , whiche was , to put out the Right Eie of eche one of the Inhabitantes . Euen so wil the Pope plucke from vs the Holy Scripture , the Gospel of our Saluation , and al the Confidence , whiche wee haue in Christe Iesu . And vpon other condition can he not agree vpon peace with vs .

M. Hardinge .

Ye are not fallen from the Bishop of Rome onely , whiche were a damnable schisme , but ye are fallen from Christes Churche . Your comparison of the Pope with kinge Nahas is not very agreable . But sirs , ye speake more maliciously , then credibly . Be ye good Christen men , and conforme your selues to the Catholique Faithe , ( and denie Christe , and his Gospel : For , this also yee shoulde haue added ) and I warrant you , the Pope wil not plucke from you , neither the Scriptures , nor your confidence in Christe Iesu , no more then he dooth from vs .

The Apologie , Cap. 20. Diuision . 3.

For whereas somme vse to make so greate a vaunte , that the Pope is onely Peters Successour , as though thereby he carried the Holy Ghoste in his bosome , & cannot erre , this is but a mater of nothing , & a very trifelinge tale . Gods Grace is promised to a good minde , and to any one that feareth him , not vnto Sees & Successions . Richesse , saithe S. Hierome , maie make a Bishop to be of more might , then the reste : but al the Bishoppes , whosoeuer they be , are the Successours of the Apostles . If so be the Place , and Consecration onely be sufficient , why then , Manasses Succeded Dauid , and Caiphas Succeded Aaron . And it hath benne often seene , that an Idol hath benne placed in the Temple of God . In olde time , Archidamus the Lacedemonian boasted mutche of him selfe , howe he came of the bloud of Hercules . But one Nicostratus , in this wise abated his pride : Nay , quod he , thou seemest not to descende from Hercules . For Hercules destroied euil menne : and thou makest good menne euil . And when the Phariseis bragged of their linage , howe they were of the kinred and bloude of Abraham , Iohan. 8. Ye , saithe Christe , seeke to kil me , a manne whiche haue tolde you the truthe , as I hearde it from God . Thus Abraham neuer did . Yee are of youre Father the Diuel , and wil needes obeie his wil .

M. Hardinge .

The Pope succedeth Peter in auctoritie and power . For whereas the Shepe of Christe continewe to the worldes ende , he is not wise , that thinketh Christe to haue made a shepeherde temporarie or for a time , ouer his perpetual flocke . Then what shepeherdly endoument our Lorde gaue to the firste shepeherde , at the institution of the shepeherdely office of the Churche : that is he vnderstanded to haue geeuen ordinarely to euery successour . Luke . 22. To Peter he gaue that he obteined by his praier made to the Father , that his Faithe should not faile . Againe , to him he gaue grace that to performe , the performance whereof at him he required , to witte , that he confirmed and strengthened his brethren : wherefore the grace of stedfastnesse of Faithe , and of confirminge the waueringe and doubtful in Faithe , euery Pope obteineth of the holy Ghoste for the benefite of the Churche . And so the Pope , although he maie erre by personal erroure , in his owne priuate iudgemente , as a man , and as a particular Doctour in his owne opinion : * * Vntruthe , ioined with impudent flatterie , & extreme folie . yet as he is Pope , the successour of Peter , the Vicar of Christe in earthe , the shepeherde of the vniuersal Churche , in publique iudgemente , in deliberation and definitiue sentence * * Vntruthe , ioined with impudent flatterie , & extreme folie . he neuer erreth . * * Vntruthe , ioined with impudent flatterie , & extreme folie . nor neuer erred . For when so euer he ordeineth or determineth any thinge by his highe Bishoply Auctoritie , intendinge to binde Christen menne to performe or beleue the same , he is alwaies gouerned and holpen with the grace and fauour of the holy Ghoste . This is to Catholique Doctours a very certaintie , though to sutche doughty Clerkes as ye are , it is but a mater of nothinge , and a very triflinge tale .

Gods grace in one respecte , is promised bothe to a good minde , and to one that feareth God , and also in an other respect , to the successours of Peter . S. Hieromes saieinge to Euagrius , whiche nowe you haue alleaged three or foure times , wil not handsomly serue you for so diuerse pointes , as a shipmans hose for diuerse legges . ‡ ‡ This place of S. Hierome is answeared before , Par. 2. ca. 3. Diui. 5. Once againe I tel you , thereby he meaneth nothinge els , but that , the greatnes of Rome ought not to geue Auctoritie to a wronge priuat custome , ( by whiche Deacons , in certaine cases were preferred before Priestes ) against the right generall custome of the worlde . And bishoppes be the successours of the Apostles , we graunte , yet is the Pope the successour of Peter , * * Peter was the Shepeheard , and the Apostles the Sheepe . A vaine vntruthe without ●auoure . Cyprian s●the , Christus parem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem . who was shepeherde of al Christes Lambes and shepe , and therefore also * * Peter was the Shepeheard , and the Apostles the Sheepe . A vaine vntruthe without ●auoure . Cyprian s●the , Christus parem dedit Apostolis omnibus potestatem . of the Apostles them selues , and so hath a higher auctoritie .

As for your example of Archidamus , who boastingly fetched his petigree from Hercules , you muste consider , succession of vertue alwaies foloweth not succession of bloude . Nowe wee do● acknowledge in the Pope a succession of shepeherdly power , euen sutche as was in Peter . ‡ ‡ The Pope succedeth in power but notin Holinesse . Whiche power is not taken awaie by lacke of Peters holines . Christe likewise by his answeare to the Phariseis , though he affirmed , they succeded not Abraham in loue of truthe , and that for their malice , they were of their Father the Deuil : yet ●e denied not , but that they came lineally of Abraham , and were of his bloud , though not of his godlines . Sutche succession meane not we , speakinge of the Pope , whose succession is deriued of Peter : but the succession of power and auctoritie , and * * Al this maie be called the Succession of folie . of infallibilitie of Faithe in iudgemente and sentence definitiue .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Here wee haue founde one Pope with twoo Capacities . In one respecte he is a Man : in an other respecte he is aboue a Man : but whether , in that respecte , he be Angel , or Archangel , it is paste in silence . One waie he Succedeth Peter : an other waie he Succedeth , I knowe not , whom . One waie he maie Erre : an other waie , though he woulde neuer so faine , he cannot erre . In his Bed , at his Table , on Horsebacke , or els where , wee maie wel mistruste him : for in these places he maie be deceiued , as wel , as others . But , in Councel , in Consistorie , and in place of Iudgemente , it is moste certaine , yee saie , he cannot erre . For in these places he hathe the Holy Ghoste , I trowe , at his Commaundemente . His Power Pastoral , his Succession in Authoritie , and Infallibilitie of Faithe , his Place , his Chaire , & his Consecration , Sallustius in Ciceronem . are sufficiente for euer to preserue him from Erroure . To like pourpose Salluste sommetime saide of Cicero , Aliud Stans , aliud Sedens , de Republica sentit : While he Standeth vp , he hath one minde , touching the common State : When he sitteth downe , Nicola . Cusanus de Authoritate Ecclesi . &c. Dis. 19. Sic omnes . in Glossa . he hath an other . Apolloes Nonne , while she sate mewed in her Caue , was inspired , and Prophesied , and gaue Oracles : but after that shee came abroade , shee was no wiser , then other wemen . Thus your Doctours saie , as it is before reported , Veritas adhaeret Cathedrae : Papa sanctitatem recipit à Cathedra : The Popes Truthe is fastened vnto his Chaire : The Pope cannot Erre . The Pope from his Chaire receiueth his Holinesse .

It shameth mee , M. Hardinge , to see you so vainely occupied about these vanities . Yee maie wel be liberal in dealinge hereof . They coste you but litle : they are onely your owne . Scriptures , Doctoures , or Councels , to witnesse your saieinges , yee allege none . For further declaration of this whole mater , I beseche thee , good Christian Reader , Par. 6. ca. 5. Di. 2. to consider the shorte treatie that I haue written before , touchinge the sundrie Erroures , and euidente Heresies , that haue benne notably founde in Popes . Alphonsus de Castro , one of M. Hardinges owne special Doctours , saithe : Alphonsus , De Haeresib . li. 1. ca. 4. Non dubitamus , an Haereticum esse , & Papam esse , coire in vnum possint , &c. Non enim credo , aliquem esse adeò Impudentem Papae Assentatorem , vt ei tribuere hoc velit , vt nec Errare , nec in Interpretatione Sacrarum Literarum hallucinari possit : Wee doubte not , whether one man maie be a Pope , and an Heretique bothe togeather . For , I beleue , there is none so shamelesse a flatterer of the Pope , that wil saie , ( as you saie , M. Hardinge ) The Pope can neuer Erre , nor be deceiued in the Exposition of the Scriptures .

Likewise Erasmus saithe : Si verum est , quod quidam asseuerant , Romanum Pontificem Errore Iudiciali Errare non posse , Erasm in Annotationibus , In 1. Corin. 7. quid opus est Generalibus Concilijs ? quid opus est , in Concilium accersere Iurisconsultos , ac Theologos eruditos ? Si Papa pronuntians labi non potest , cur datus est Appellationi locus , vel ad Synodum , vel ad eundem rectiùs edoctum ? Quorsum attinet , tot Academias in tractandis Fidei quaestonibus distorqueri , cùm ex Vno Pontifice , quod verum est , audire liceat ? Imò qui fit , vt huius Pontificis decreta cum illius Pontificis decretis pugnent ? If it be true , that somme menne saie , that the Bishop of Rome can neuer Errre in Erroure of Iudgemente , what neede wee then so many General Councelles ? And in the same , what neede wee so many Lawiers , and learned Diuines ? If the Pope cannot Erre in geeuinge sentence , wherefore lieth there any Appeale from the Pope , either to a Councel , or els to the Pope him selfe beinge better enfourmed ? What neede wee to trouble so many Vniuersities , in discussinge of Maters of Faithe , whereas wee maie learne the Truthe of the Pope alone ? Naie , howe commeth it aboute , that one Popes Decrees are founde contrarie to an others : if it bee so certaine , that the Pope , who so euer he be and what so euer he saie , can neuer Erre ?

That yee speake of Peters Succession , is vaine , and childishe . Of suche folie Athanasius saithe : Athana . In Apologia Secunda . Hieronymus ad Euagrium . Persuasus est , in Magnitudine Vrbium Religionem esse sitam : This wise man imagineth , that Religion standeth in the Greatenesse of Citties . S. Hierome saithe : Potentia Diuitiarum , & Paupertatis Humilitas vel Sublimiorem , vel Inferiorem Episcopum non facit . Caeterùm omnes Apostolorum successores sunt : The Wealthe of Richesse , and the Basenesse of Pouertie maketh a Bishop neither Higher , nor Lower . But al Bishoppes be the Apostles Successours .

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 1.

Yet notwithstandinge , bicause wee wil graunte somme what to Succession , tel vs , hath the Pope alone Succeded Peter ? And wherein , I praie you , in what Religion , in what Office , in what peece of his life hathe he Succeded him ? What one thing ( tel me ) had Peter euer like vnto the Pope , or the Pope like vnto Peter ? Except peraduenture thei wil saie thus , That Peter , when he was at Rome , neuer taught the Gospel , neuer Fedde the Flocke , toke away the Keies of the Kingdome of Heauen , hid the Treasures of his Lorde , sat him downe onely in his Castle of S. Iohn Laterane , & pointed out with his finger al the places of Purgatorie , and kindes of pounishementes , committinge somme poore Soules to be tormented , and other somme againe suddainely releasing thence at his own pleasure , takinge monie for so doinge : or , that he gaue order to saie priuate Masses in euery corner : or that he mumbled vp the Holy Seruice with a lowe voice , and in an vnknowen language : or , that he hanged vp the Sacrament in euery Temple , and on euery Aultar , and caried the same about before him , whither soeuer he wente , vpon an amblinge Iannet , with lightes , and belles : or , that he Consecrated with his Holy Breath , Oile , Waxe , Wulle , Belles , Chalices , Churches , and Aultars : or that he solde Iubilees , Graces , Liberties , Aduousons , Preuentions , Firste fruites , Palles , the wearinge of Palles , Bulles , Indulgences , and Pardons : or that he called him selfe by the name of the Head of the Churche , the Highest Bishop , Bishop of Bishoppes , alone moste Holy : or , that by vsurpation he tooke vpon him selfe the Right & Authoritie ouer other Bishoppes Churches : or that he Exempted him selfe from the Power of any Ciuil gouernemente : or that he mainteined Warres , and set Princes togeather at variance : or that he sittinge in his Chaire , with his triple Crowne ful of labelles , with sumptuous and Persianlike gorgiousnesse , with his Roial Scepter , with his Diademe of gould , and glitteringe with stones , was caried about , not vpon palfraie , but vpon the shoulders of Noble Menne . These thinges , no doubt , did Peter at Rome in times paste , and leafte them in charge to his Successours , as you would saie , from hand to hande : for these things be nowe a daies donne at Rome by the Popes , and be so donne , as though nothing els ought to be donne .

M. Hardinge .

The Pope alone hath succeded S. Peter . Aske you wherein ? in what Religion ? in what office ? Wee tel you , he succeded in Peters Chaire , in whiche he sate at Rome , and ruled the Churche , in Christian Religion , * * Vntruthe . For the Pope feedeth not . in that office whiche Christe committed to Peter , when he saide , Pasce oues meas , Fede my Sheepe . Then whiche office he neuer gaue greater , nor with like circumstance of charge , nor to any other gaue he it , then to Peter . For to him alone , he saide , Fede my Sheepe . What aske ye vs of this officers life ?

You aske what thinge had Peter euer like vnto the Pope , or the Pope like vnto Peter . We tel you . Peter had authoritie to fide Christes shepe , like vnto the Pope . And the Pope hath authoritie to fede Christes Shepe , like vnto Peter , ‡ ‡ And wel proued . Like power , like commission . He that gaue them authoritie to fede , gaue them also authoritie to doo what so euer maie perteine to feding .

The B. of Sarisburie .

For that yee telle vs so many faire tales of Peters Succession , wee demaunde of you , wherein the Pope succedeth Peter ? You answeare , He succedeth him in his Chaire : as if Peter had benne sommetime enstalled in Rome , and had sate solemnely al daie with his Triple Crowne , in his Pontificalibus , and in a Chaire of goulde . And thus , hauing loste bothe Religion , and Doctrine , yee thinke it sufficient , at leaste to holde by the Chaire : Peters successoure . as if a Souldier , that had lost his swerde , would plaie the man with ●he scaberde . But so Caiphàs succeded Aaron : So wicked Manasses succeded Dauid : So maie Antichriste easily sitte in Peters Chaire .

Chrysostome saithe : Non Cathedra facit Sacerdotem : sed Sacerdos Cathedram . Nec Locus Sanctificat Hominem : Dis. 40. Multi . sed Homo Locum : It is not the Chaire , that maketh the Bishop : But it is the Bishop , that maketh the Chaire . Neither is it the Place , that halloweth the Man : But it is the Man , that halloweth the Place . Likewise S. Hierome saith : Dis. 40. Non est facile . Non Sanctorum Filij sunt , qui tenet loca Sanctorum : Theiare not alwaies the Children of Holy menne , that sitte in the roum●●●● Holy menne .

He doothe greate wronge vnto S. Peter , that placeth sutche a one in sutche a Chaire . For neither is the Pope in any thinge like S. Peter : nor was S. Peter in any thinge like the Pope . When Simeones sawe that Arsacius , an vnlearned , and an vnworthy Olde Doatinge man , Nicepho . li. 13. cap. 28. was placed in Chrysostomes roume , he cried oute , prò pudor : Quis , cui ? Out for shame : what a soary hinde is this ? and in whose place haue wee sette him ? Euen so maie wee iustely saie of the Popes sittinge in Peters Chaire , prò pudor , Quis , Cui ?

The Apologie , Cap. 21. Diuision . 2.

Or contrariwise , peraduenture they had rather saie thus , that the Pope doothe nowe al the same thinges , whiche wee knowe , Peter did many a daie agoe : that is , that he renneth vp and downe into euery Countrie , to Preache the Gospel , not onely openly abroade , but also priuately from house to house : that he is diligente , and applieth that businesse , in season , and out of season , in due time , and out of due time : that he doothe the part of an Euangeliste , that he fulfilleth the woorke , and Ministerie of Christe , that he is the watcheman of the House of Israel , receiueth answeares , and wordes at Gods mouthe : and , euen as he receiueth them , so he deliuereth them ouer to the people : That he is the Salte of the Earthe : That he is the Light of the worlde : that he doothe not Feede him selfe , but his Flocke : that hee doothe not entangle him selfe with the worldly cares of this life : that he dooth not vse a Sou●raintie ouer the Lordes people : that he seeketh not to haue other menne Minister vnto him , but him selfe rather Ministreth vnto others : that he taketh al Bishoppes as his Felowes , and Equalles : that he is Subiecte to Princes , as to personnes sent from God : that he geeueth to cesar that , whiche is cesars : and that he , as the Olde Bishoppes of Rome did without contradiction , calleth the Emperoure his Lorde . Onlesse therefore the Popes doo the like nowe a daies , as Peter did the thinges aforesaide , there is no cause at al , why they shoulde glorie so mutche of Peters name , and of his Succession .

M. Hardinge .

The Pope nowe runneth not vp and downe into euery countrie , he goeth not openly and priuatly , from house to house , and to euery alehouse , as ye would him to doo , like one of your ministers : Neither , I trowe , ye maisters , that be Superintendentes your selues , thinke it conuenient , that ye goe from house to house , to preache your Gospel at these dates . And would ye the Pope to abase him selfe to that yee thinke becommeth not your selues ? He hath ( as meete it is ) other fitte menne to helpe to beare his burthea with him . And whereas one body suffiseth not for so great and so many affaires : for Councel , he hath many heads : for ouersight , many eies : for eare , many hartes : for preachinge , many tounges : for woorke , many handes : for knowledge , many eares : for expedition of matters , many feete : for the great weight of his charge , many shoulders : briefly , for al necessary and behoofeful cases , conuenient helpes . The like helpes would S. Peter vse , were he nowe liuinge .

The B. of Sarisburie .

To speake of the Popes renninge vp , and downe , from alehouse to alehouse , it is greate folie . It should be sufficient , if he would goe from Churche to Churche , and remember his Charge , and Feede the Flocke , & Preache the Gospel . Yee saie , The Pope hath many heades , many eies , many hartes , many tongues , many handes , many eares . many shoulders : And thus , of your Pope ye make a Monster , with many eies , eares , tongues , and hartes of others , & none of his owne . A wise man sommetime saide : Improbè facit , Titus Liuius . qui , cùm alienis oculis omnia ei agenda sint , postulet aliorum vitas committi sibi : It is but lewdely donne , if a man , that must ouersee al thinges with other mennes eies , desiere to haue the liues of others committed ouer to his charge .

God geeue him eies to see , and eares to heare , and harte to vnderstande : that he maie knowe the time of Goddes Visitation .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 1.

Mutche lesse cause haue thei , to complaine of our departinge , and to calle vs againe to be felowes & frendes with them , and to beleue as thei beleue . Menne saie , that one Cobilon a Lacedemonian , when he was sent Embassadoure to the Kinge of the Persians , to treate of a league , and sounde by chaunce them of the Courte plaieing at dice , he returned streight way home againe , leauinge his message vndonne . And when he was asked , why he hadde slackte to doo the thinges , whiche he had receiued by publique Commission to doo , he made answere , he thought it should be a great reproche to his Common Wealthe , to make a league with Dicers . But , if we should contente our selues to returne to the Pope , and to his Errours , and to make a couenaunt , not onely with Dicers , but also with menne farre more vngraceous , and wicked , then any Dicers be : bisides that , this should be a great blotte to our good name , it shoulde also be a very dangerous mater , bothe to kendle Goddes wrath against vs , and to clogge and condemne our owne Soules for euer .

M. Hardinge .

Yee doo wel to compare your selues with this Cobilon . For in deede * * Wee flee wicked Companie , as he did . ye doo as he did . Yee were sent ‡ ‡ Vntruthe . For where did Christe euer sende vs to the B. of Rome ? by Christe to his Vicare , Peters Successour , to be fedde and gouerned like shepe vnder the shepeherde Christe and his Churche be a perfite body , he the head , the true beleuers knitte togeather in charitie the members ▪ eche one in his order and degree . He is the vine , wee the boughes and branches . * * By this Rule the Pope is leaft voide of life : for that he is diuided from Christe , that is the head . What member cutte of from the bodie , liueth ? what boughe broken from the tree , groweth ? As euery suche member dieth , and bough withereth : So if ye remaine not in the Catholike Churche , which is the body of Christe , yee drawe no life from the heade , yee haue no parte of the Spirite , that from thence redoundeth to euery member , yee haue no portion of the vitall iouysse that issueth from the roote . Then what remaineth , but that ye be caste into the fire ? For this cause S. Cyprian and other Fathers , often times haue saide , that out and besides the Churche , there is no saluation .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Christe neuer tolde vs , neither of any his Vicare General : nor of Rome : nor of Laterane : nor of Peters Chaire : nor willed vs to haue recourse to the Bishop of Rome , more then to any other seueral Bishop . Therefore , M. Harding , we muste recken this emongest the reste of your Vntruthes .

It is true , that you saie , A member diuided from the Body cannot liue . But youre Conclusion is Vntrue , like the rest . For , Rome is not the Body , but onely a Member of the Body : Rome is not the Tree , but onely a Boughe : Rome is not the Heade , but onely a Springe . And therefore , seeinge , it is nowe diuided from that Body : seeinge , it is broken from that Tree : seeing , it is cut of from that Heade , it is no maruaile , thoughe it be sterued , thoughe it be wethered , thoughe it be leafte drie , without either Sprite , or life : As this daie it appeareth to the eies of al them , that wil beholde it .

The Apologie , Cap. 22. Diuision . 2.

For of very truthe , we haue departed from him , whom we sawe , had blinded the whole worlde this many a hundred yeere : From him , who too farre presumpteously was woonte to saie , he could not erre , and , what so euer he did , no mortal man had power to condemne him , neither Kinges , nor Emperoures , nor the whole Clergie , nor yet al the people in the worlde togeather , no , thoughe he shoulde carrie away with him a thousande Soules into Hel : From him , who tooke vpon him power to commaunde , not onely menne , but euen the Angelles of God , to goe , to returne , to leade Soules into Purgatorie , & to bringe them backe againe , when he liste him selfe : who , Gregorie saithe , without al doubte , is the very forerenner , and standerd bearer of Antichriste , and hath vtterly forsaken the Catholique Faith : From whom also these ringleaders of ours , who now with might , and maine resiste the Gospel , and the truthe , whiche thei knowe to be the truthe , haue ere this departed euery one of their owne accorde , & good wil : and would euen now also gladly departe from him againe , if the note of inconstancie , and shame , & their owne estimation among the people , were not a let vnto them . In conclusion , wee haue departed from him , to whom we were not bounde , and who had nothinge to laie for him selfe , but onely , I knowe not what , vertue , or power of the place , where he dwelleth , and a continuance of Succession .

M. Hardinge .

As yee confesse youre departinge , so woulde God yee vnderstoode youre gylte .

Those reuerent Fathers , and Godly learned menne , whose romes ye holde wrongfully , whom it liked your interpreter to cal Ringleaders , resiste not the Gospel , but suffer persecution for the Gospel . Your Gospel , that is to saie , your vile heresies and blaspemies , worthely thei detes●e . Your newe trouth , that is to saie , your false and wicked lies , thei abhorre . Neither euer departed they from any parte of the dutie of Catholique menne , * * M. Hardinges Reuerende Fathers continued twentie yeeres together in Hypocrifie . by their owne accorde and good wil , as ye saie . * * M. Hardinges Reuerende Fathers continued twentie yeeres together in Hypocrifie . But wherein they slepte aside , they were compelled by sutche feare , as might happen to a right constant man , I meane the terrour of death , whiche , as Aristotle saithe , of al terrible thinges is most terrible . Nowe bicause yet they finde the terroure of a gilty conscience , more terrible then death of their persons , thei entende by Gods grace assisting them , neuer so to steppe aside againe , but rather to suffer what so euer extremities . Whose bloude , or the bloude of any of them , if God to his honour shal at any time permitt mitte you to drawe , Persequution . whiche so mutche ye thirst , sone after looke ye for the retourninge of the Israelites againe , that texte beinge then fulfilled , Complerae sunt iniquitates Amorrhaeorum .

Were not thei wel assured of the trouthe , moste certaine it is , what so euer ye saie , thei would not make so foolishe a bargaine as your selues doo , as to buye vaine estimation among the people , with the certaine losse of their soules .

The B. of Sarisburie .

Certaine of youre frendes , whom yee cal Reuerende Fathers , suffer imprisonement , yee saie , and persequution for the Gospel . Notwithstandinge , it is not so longe sithence the saide Reuerende Fathers , were them selues the Burners , and Persequutours of the Gospel . Epiphanius . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Sutche complainte sommetime made Arius the wicked Heretique . For thus he writeth , I Arius , that suffer persequution for the Truthe , that euer preuaileth . Ruffinus , notwithstandinge he were a greate fauourer of the Origenian Heretiques , yet he saide , euen as you saie , Nostra Fides , persequutionis Haereticorum tempore , cùm in Sancta Alexandrina Ecclesia degeremus , in carceribus , & Exilijs , Hieronym . Aduersus Ruffinum lib. 2. Hiero. eodem loco . quae pro fide inferebantur , probata est : While wee liued in the Holy Churche of Alexandria , in the time of the persequution of Heretiques , Our Faithe was proued in prisones , and Banishementes , whiche were laide vpon vs for the Faithes sake . Vnto whom S. Hierome in his pleasante manner answeareth thus : Miror qu'd non adiecerit , Vinctus Iesu Christi : Liberatus sum de ore Leonis : Alexandriae ad bestias depugnaui : Cursum Consummaui : Fidem seruaui : Superest mihi corona Iustitiae : I maruaile mutche , that he saide not further . Ruffinus the Prisoner of Iesus Christe : I was deliuered out of the Lions mouthe : I was throwen amongeste wilde beastes at Alexandria : I haue paste my Course : I haue keapte the Faithe : Nowe there remainethe for mee the Crowne of Righteousnesse .

Thus the Woulfe , when he is restreined from spoile and rauen , maie likewise complaine of Persequution .

S. Hieronym . Ad Apronium . Hierome , writinge vnto Apronius of the state of the Easte Churches , where he then liued , saithe thus : Hîc quieta sunt omnia . Etsi enim venena pectoris non amiserint , tamen os impietatis non audent aperire . Sed sunt sicut aspides surdae , obturantes aures suas : Al thinges here are quiete . For , al be it they haue not leafte the poison of theire bartes , yet they dare not open theire wicked mouthes . But they are as the deafe Serpentes , shuttinge vp theire eares , and wil heare nothinge .

The saide Reuerende Fathers , that , as nowe , sitte so firmely of your side , not longe agoe , were wel contented , bothe to mainetaine , and to publisshe the contrarie , as wel , as you . Howe be it , al this , you saie , they did not of good wil , but onely of feare , and of sutche feare , as maie happen vpon a constant man : that is to saie , of mere Hypocrisie , and Dissimulation , and by open flatteringe of theire Prince .

And thus , to saue your Fathers from beinge Schismatiques , yee are wel contente to make them Hypocrites . Stephan Gardi . De vera Obedien. Thus saie you . But youre saide Reuerendes them selues woulde haue tolde you farre otherwise .

Doctour Gardiner of him selfe saith thus : He examineth the mater with al his senses . In the discussing , and trial of the truthe , I did not so easely contente me selfe . But I so framed me selfe , that , as it had benne in askinge the iudgemente of al my senses , onlesse I perceiued , that I firste of al hearde them with mine eares , smelled them with my nose , sawe them with mine eies , He is perswaded by the woorkinge of Gods grace . and felte them with my handes , I thought , I had not seene yenough . Againe he saithe : This aduised consideration hathe pulled awaie al scrupulous doubtes : And by the woorkinge of Goddes Grace , He is compelled by the power of the Truthe . hathe conueighed and brought them into the lighte of the veritie .

And againe , In deede to tel you at a worde , that compelled me , that compelleth al menne , euen the mighty power of the Truthe .

Likewise saithe Doctour Bonner , Truthe preuaileth . touchinge the same : Doctor Bonner , In praefatione in Veram Obedientiam . The mater was not rashely taken in hande : but with Iudgemente , and wisedome examined , and discussed . Againe he saithe , The Bishop of Winchester had longe agoe thorowely bulted this mater , euen vnto the branne .

If these tales be true , He examineth the mater to the vttermoste . M. Hardinge , then is youre tale moste vntrue . Certainely , beinge directly contrarie , to make them bothe true , it is not possible .

But here yee beginne to fraie vs with youre Prophetical threates . If wee once beginne to touche youre Bloude , then , yee saie , your Louanian Israel immediately afterwarde shal be restoared : I thinke , you meane , Domus Iacob de populo Barbaro .

In sutche blinde Prognostications , I haue no skil . God oftentimes suffereth iniquitie , and falshedde to preuaile for a season , to chasten the vnkindenesse of his people . Let his wil be donne with mercie , as it shal seeme good in his eies . But if yee preuaile againe , yee shal preuaile to your owne confusion . Wel yee maie represse the Truthe of God , as youre Fathers haue often donne before : But vtterly to abolishe it , yee shal neuer be hable .

Sutche vaine hope had the Iewes in olde times , to recouer theire Religion , and Ceremonies , and vtterly to ouerthrowe the Ghospel of Christe . They conspired togeather , gotte Masons , and Carpenters , and beganne to caste the fundation , to repaire their Temple . Chrysostom . In Oratio . contra Iudaeos . Immediately the Emperoure Constantine raised a power , and sette vpon them , and put them to the swerde , as Rebelles , and Traitours . Others , that he spared aliue , he made slaues , and cutte of somme theire tongues , somme theire handes , somme theire cares , somme theire noses : somme he burnte in the face : and so sente them abroade , for an example , from Towne to Towne throughout the Worlde .

Afterwarde , Ambrosius , li. 5. Epist. 29. when the wicked Emperoure Iulian , in despite of Christe , had geuen the Iewes leaue to builde , and repaire , as is saide before , and , the Princes power assistinge them , no power seemed hable to withstande theire pourpose , then God him self from Heauen aboue encountred with them . Earthequakes brake out , and ouerthrewe theire buildinges . Lightninges fel downe , and burnte bothe the tooles in theire handes , and the coates on theire backes . Then was the Gospel of Christe more bewtieful , and more glorious , then euer it had benne before .

S. Gregorie saithe , Gregor. In primum Regum . cap. 4. li 3. ca. 5. Tulerunt Dagon , & restituerunt eum in locum suum . Hoc est , in Templo , vbi Arca Dei posita fuerat . Quid est ergo Dagon in locum suum restituere , nisi Idololatriae statum subtili consideratione perquirere ? Et quia , quò subtiliùs Idololatriae error aspicitur , eò veriùs condemnatur , subiunctū est , Rursus diluculo surgentes inuenerunt Dagon iacentem super faciem coram Arca Domini : They took the Idole Dagon , and restoared him againe into his place : that is to saie , in the Temple of God , where the Arke of God was placed before . And what is it , to restoare againe Dagon into his place , but discretely , and aduisedly to examine the state of Idolatrie ? And , for as mutche as , the better the Erroure of Idolatrie is seene , the better it is condemned , therefore it foloweth further , They risinge in the morninge , founde Dagon lieinge flat vpon his face , before the Arke of the Lorde .

Euen so , M. Hardinge , if yee rayse vp youre Dagon once againe , once againe he shal comme to grounde , and shal squatte his handes , and feete , and be vtterly dismembred by the falle , and shal lie grouelinge , as a blocke , before the presence of the Arke of God . Prouer. 21. There is no Counsel againste the Lorde .

The Noble Prince Iosua , after that he had once , by Goddes commaundement , destroied the Cittie of Iericho , Iosua . 6. adiured al his posteritie in this sorte : Accursed be he before Iehoua the Lorde , that shal stande vp , and restoare this Cittie of Hiericho . In the deathe of his eldest sonne he shal laie the fundation : and in the deathe of his yongeste childe he shal close the gates .

Theodoretus saithe , Persequution . The wicked shal not be hable to preuaile againste God . Theodoret. Eccle. histor. fol. 285. in Graeco . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 But if they once geate the ouer hand , yet shal they comme downe againe : as it is written by the Prophete Esai .

As for draweing of youre bloude , yee neede not so greatly to complaine . The Gospel of Christe is not bloudy . It hath hitherto preuailed withoute any one drop of al your bloude . God geue you grace , to repente , lefte your owne bloude be vpon your owne heade in the daie of the Lorde . Fire , and swerde , and mercilesse Crueltie are the onely instrumentes of youre Doctrine . And therefore yee seeme nowe to saie , Genesis 27. in youre blinde hope , as cursed Esau sommetime saide of his Brother Jacob. Venient dies luctus patris mei , & occidam Iacobum Fratrem meum : The daies shal comme , that my Father shal die . Then wil I kille my Brother Iacob .

Athanasius saithe , Athanasius , Ad Solitariam vitam agentes . Caedi Christianorum proprium est : Caedere autem Christianos , Pilati , & Caiphae , officia sunt : It is the parte of Christians , to suffer persecution : But to persecute the Christians , it is the very office of Pilate , and Caiphas .

Wee wil saie vnto you with S. Augustine : Augustin . Contra Epistolam Fundamenti . cap. 1. Illi in vos saeuiant , qui nesciunt , quo cum labore verum inueniatur , & quàm difficilè caueantur errores : Let them persecute you , and vse crueltie ouer you , that knowe not , what a laboure it is , to finde the truthe : and howe harde it is , to beware of erroure .

Againe he saithe : Nemo de praeteritis insultat Erroribus , nisi qui Diuinam Misericordiam expertus non est , vt careret erroribus . Tantum id agamus , vt errores aliquando finiantur : No man vpbraideth others with erroures paste , but he , that hathe not felte Goddes Diuine Mercie , to be voide of erroures . Let this be oure onely laboure , that erroures at laste maie haue an ende .

Wee wil saie of you , as S. Peter sommetime saide of Simon the Sorcerer , when the people for anger , seeinge his falsehedde , woulde haue stoned him to deathe , Abdias in Tetro Imò viuat , & Regnum Christi crescere videat , vel inuitus : Naie , naie , let him liue : and let him see the kingdome of Christe to growe , and prosper , euen against his wil.

The Apologie , Cap. 23. Diuision . 1.

And as for vs , we of al others moste iustely haue leafte him . For our Kinges , yea euen thei , whiche with greatest Reuerence did folowe , and obeie the Authoritie , & Faithe of the Bishoppes of Rome , haue longe since founde , and felte wel yenough the yoke , and Tyrannie of the Popes kingdom . For the Bishops of Rome somtime tooke the Crowne from the Heade of our Kinge , Henry the Seconde , and compelled him to put aside al his Princely state , and Maiestie , and , like a meere Priuate man , to come vnto theire Legate with greate summission , and humilitie , so as al his Subiectes might laugh him to scorne . More then this , thei caused Bishoppes , and Monkes , and somme parte of the Nobilitie , to be in the fielde againste our Kinge Iohn , and set al the people at libertie from their othes , whereby thei ought allegeance to their Kinge : and at laste , wickedly , and moste abominably they bereeued the same Kinge , not onely of his Kingedome , but also of his life . Bisides this , thei Excommunicated , and cursed Kinge Henry the Eighte , that moste famous Prince , and stirred vp against him , sommetime the Emperour , sommetime the Frenche Kinge : and as mutche as in them was , put our Realme in hazarde to haue benne a very praie , and spoile vnto the Enimie . Yet were they but fooles , and madde menne , to thinke , that either so mighty a Prince could be feared with bugges , & rattles : or els , that so Noble , and greate a Kingdome might so easily , euen at one morsel , be deuoured , and swalowed vp .

M. Hardinge .

Concerninge the case betweene these three Kinges of Englande , and the Bishops of Rome for the time beinge , I saie litle . If they did wel , and the Bishops euil , they haue their rewarde : the other , their punishemente . ●f otherwise , or howe so euer eche one at Gods iudgemente shal haue his deserued measure . But be it graunted , al were true , ye saie , though we know the more part to be false . What though Kinge Henry the seconde were euil treated of Pope Alexander , about the murthering of S. Thomas the Archebishop of Cantorbury , and Kinge Iohn likewise of that zelous and learned Pope Innocentius the thirde ? &c.

The B. of Sarisburie .

Notwithstandinge the Pope , as his manner hath benne , raise Commotion within the Realme , and arme the subiectes againste theire Soueraine , and pulle the Crowne Emperial from his heade , yet , by your Doctrine , who so euer dare speake in his Princes right , is a foole , and killeth him selfe : as if there were no life , or saluation , but onely vnder the frantike gouernement of the Pope . Sutche obedience , and loialtie the Pope hathe taught you towardes your Prince .

The Apologie , Cap. 23. Diuision . 2.

And yet , as though al this were too litle , thei would needes haue made al the Realme Tributarie to them , & exacted thence yeerely most vniuste and wrongeful taxes . So deere coste vs the frendeship of the Cittie of Rome . Wherefore , if they haue gotten these thinges of vs by extortion , through theire fraude , and suttle sleightes , we see no reason , why we maie not plucke awaie the same from them againe , by lawful waies , and iuste meanes . And , if our Kinges in that darkenesse , and blindenesse of the former times , gaue them these thinges of theire owne accorde , and liberalitie , for Religions sake , beinge moued with a certaine opinion of their fained holinesse : now , when the ignorance and erroure is spied out , maie the Kinges theire Successours take them awaie againe , seinge they haue the same Authoritie , the Kinges theire Auncestours had before . For the gifte is voide , excepte it be allowed by the wil of the geeuer : and that cannot seme a perfit wil , whiche is dimmed , and hindered by erroure .

M. Hardinge .

As for Peterpens , and what other so euer summes of monie were yeerely paide to the Churche of Rome , whiche were not by extorcion suttil sleightes by the Popes gotten , as ye slaunder , but freely and discretely by the prince and the realme * * No doubt . For the very cause hereof was Auarice , and treacherie . for a greate cause graunted , it is not a thing that so mutche grieueth the Pope , as your departure from the true faith and Churche dothe , as it maie wel appere by that whiche happened in Queene Maries raigne . In whiche time although the Pope were acknowledged ▪ yet him selfe neuer was knowen to haue demaunded his Peterpens , or any other yeerely paimentes againe . But what is this to your schismes and Heresies ? This healpethe you nothinge for answeare to the hainous crime of your Apostasie . The liberalitie of our countrie to the see of Rome , whiche is the mother of al the Weaste Churches , The Popes Exactions . hath ben so smal in comparison of certaine other Realmes , as with the honoure of the Realme it might not seme to finde it selfe greued therewith . Yet here ye sette a gnatte to an Elephante , and make greate adoo about a litle . The Realme is not so mutche enriched by retaininge that smal summe from the Pope , as it is dishonored by your vndiscrete talke , saueringe altogeather of miserie and niggardnes . Ye shoulde haue shewed better stuffe at leaste in th ende of your booke . The laste acte of a fable , by rules of Poeterie shoulde be beste . Ye haue done like a foolishe Poete , making your ende so badde . The Pope seeketh not your monie , he seketh you He seeketh the safetie of your soules . * * But remember the Olde Verse , Curia Romana non captat Ouen sine lana . He seeketh , like a good shepherde , howe to reduce the streied shepe of Englande vnto the folde of Christes Churche , God graunte we maie see his good intente happely acheued .

The B. of Sarisburie .

The Pope hathe enriched him selfe , and gotten the treasures of the world into his owne handes , not by fraude , or guile , as you saie , but onely by the frée liberalitie of Kinges , August . De Verbis Domini Secundum Matth. Sermo. 19. and Princes . Yet S. Augustine saithe , Non possumus dicere , Nemo nos inuasores arguit : violentiae nullus accusat : Quasi non maiorem interdum praedam à viduabus blandimenta cliciant , quàm tormenta . Nec interest apud Deum , vtrùm vi , an circumuentione quis res alienas occupet : dummodò quoquo pacto teneat alienum : Wee cannot saie , No man chargeth vs with extorsion : noman accuseth vs of violence . For oftentimes of poore widowes a man maie geate more by flatterie , then by rackinge . And there is no difference before God , whether a man holde an other mannes goodes by open violence , or by guile : if the thinge , that he holdeth , be not his owne .

But how maie this by your learninge , M. Hardinge , be called the liberalitie of the Prince ? He is liberal , that is frée in bestowing of his own . But you tel vs , that al the Temporal goodes of the worlde are the Popes , and not the Princes : and that the Prince hath nothinge , but by fauoure & sufferance of the Pope . Your Doctours wordes be these , Archidiacon De Haeresi . Ver. Et quia tanta Fo. 15 Matthae . 4. Citatur à Felino ▪ de Offic. & potest . iudicis delega . Ex parte . 1. Iohan ▪ De Parisijs , de potestat . Regia , & Papali . Papa est Dominus omnium temporalium : secundum illud dictum Petri , Dabo tibi omnia regna mundi : The Pope is the Lorde of al temporal goodes : accordinge to that saieinge of S. Peter ( that S. Peter neuer spake : for they are the woordes of the Diuel ) I wil geue thee al the Kingdomes of the world .

An other of your Doctours saithe thus , Dicunt , quòd solus Papa est verus Dominus temporalium , ita quòd potest auferre ab alio , quòd aliâs suum est . Sed praelati caeteri , & Principes , non sunt Domini , sed Tutores , Procuratores & Dispensatores : Thei saie , that the Pope onely is the very Lorde of Temporal thinges so that he maie take from any man , that is his own . As for other Prelates , and Princes , thei be the ouerseers , and fermours , and stewardes of wordly thinges , but not the Lordes . And Matthias Parisiensis saithe , that Pope Innocentius 3 called Kinge Iohn the Kinge of England , Vasallum suum , That is to saie , his féede man , or his Tenante : meaning thereby , that the Realme of England was the Popes , and not the Kinges . If al this be true , how can the Kings of England , in graunting any thing to the Pope , be counted liberal ? Matthias Parisien . in Iohanne . Verily it is an easy kind of liberalitie for a man to geue that thing , that is not his owne .

But the Pope , yée saie , setteth no more by al his reuenewes out of Englande , then an Elephante by a gnat : and that therefore , during the whole time of Queene Marie , he neuer demaunded of vs any manner of yeerely paimente . Wée must beare with your erroure herein , M. Hardinge , for that yee neuer were the Popes Collectoure , and therefore not mutche acquainted with his Bookes . Otherwise yée might haue remembred , that Cardinal Poole , being not the Pope , but onely a Legate , or messenger from the Pope , had a thousande poundes paide him yéerely of one Bishoprike in Englande , towardes the prouision of his kitchin . Yee might haue remembred , that al the Bishoppes of Englande , paide the Pope the whole firste fruites of al theire liuinges : whiche by any common estimation , amounted to more sommewhat , then a Gnatte . And although I were neuer , neither skilful , nor curious in the Popes Collections , yet , as wel for the discouerie of so greate vntruthe , as also for the better satisfaction of the Reader , I haue thought it good , briefely , & by the waie to touche , what maie be founde in olde Recordes of good credite , touchinge the same .

Firste therefore the Archebishop of Canturburie paide vnto the Pope for his Annates , or Firste fruites , at euery vacation , tenne thousande Florenes : bisides other fiue thousande Florenes for the vse , and right of his Palle .

The Archebishop of Yorke paide likewise for his Firste fruites tenne thousande Florenes , and , as it is thought , other fiue thousand Florenes for his Palle .

The Bishop of Elie paide for his Firste Fruites seuen thousand Florenes .

The Bishop of London paide for his First Fruites thrée thousande Florenes .

The Bishop of Wincester paide for his First Fruites xij . thousande Florenes .

The Bishop of Exceter paide for his Firste Fruites six thousande Florenes .

The Bishop of Lincolne paide for his Firste Fruites fiue thousande Florenes .

The Bishop of Lichefielde , and Couentrie paide for his Firste Fruites thrée thousande Florenes .

The Bishop of Herforde paide for his First Fruites one thousande , and eight hundred Florenes .

The Bishop of Sarisburie paide for his First Fruites foure thousande , and fiue hundred Florenes . And so the reaste , eche man accordingly after his rate .

Here is to be noted , that a Florene is an Italian Crowne , of the valewe of four shillinges and six pense sterlinge .

Thus mutche I haue noted onely for example . By these few the discréete Reader maie easily gheasse the Exactions , and paimentes of the other Bishoppes .

The whole value of the Popes Firste Fruites throughout Europe , Legatio Adriant Papae . 6. Excusae Wittenbergae , An. 1538. as I finde in one Recorde ( although very vnperfite , for that it lacketh sundrie great , knowen , & notable Bishoprikes , as Durham , Carlile , Worcester , Norwiche , Bathe , Chichester , whiche , with many other moe Archebishoprikes , & Bishoprikes , as wel within the Dominions of our Kinges of Englande , as also in sundrie other Christian Kingedomes , and Countries , are leafte vnreckened ) ariseth to the Summe of twoo thousande thousande , foure hundred thrée scoare thousande , eight hundred fouretie and thrée Florenes .

Notwithstandinge yée make your Pope as bigge , as an Elephante , yet , M. H. these reckeninges are ouer huge , in any reasonable proportion , to be resembled to a gnatte . Here I leaue out the yéerely perquisites , that the Pope made of his Elections , Preuentions , Dispensations , Pluralities , Trialities , Torquottes , Tolerations : for his Bulles , his S●ales , his Signatures : for Eatinge Fleash , for Egges , for White Meate , for Priestes Concubines , & for other like marchandise . I knowe not what . The summe whereof not withstandinge amounteth to more then niene hundred thousand Florenes . As for your Smoke farthinges , & Peter pense , I make no reckeninge : by the vile , and contemptuous reporte whereof , ye shewe your self , not onely ignorante , & vnskilful , in that yée write , which argueth somme folie , but also iniurious vnto your Countrie . Reade Matthias Parisiensis , & yée shal find , bothe by what tyrannie , and treacherie , and also what masses , and intolerable summes of monie the Popes Ministers haue caried out of this Realme .

The Pope , Anno. 1215. saith he , beinge diseased with a Spiritual dropsie , that is to saie , with an vnquencheable thirst of monie , shooke out al the Priestes purses , & spoiled the Abbies of al theire Treasures .

Againe , Anno. 1246. The Pope made a Decree in Rome , that the goodes , and monies of al Bishoppes , and Priestes decessed within Englande , shoulde be taken to his vse .

The Pope gaue straite commaundemente to the Bishoppes of England , Eodem Anno. that al Personnes , and Vicares beinge resident vpon theire Benefices , shoulde paie yeerely vnto him the thirde parte of al the valewes of theire saide benefices : And , that al Parsonnes , and Vicares , beinge not residente , shoulde paie vnto him yeerely the one fusse halfe parte of theire benefices . Al these paiementes to continewe , duringe the space of three whole yeeres . Whiche amounteth at the least to the summe of a hundred and thrée scoare & x. thousand poundes .

The Bishoppes of England , Anno. 1247. after great , and forceable intreatie , agreed togeather to geue the Pope a Contribution of eleuen thousande Markes .

At that time the poore Prior of Wincester was forced to paie yéerely three hundred , Anno eodem . threescoare and fiue Markes towardes the furniture of the Popes Table .

The Pope made a straite Decrée , Eodem anno . that al Bishoppes Electe should immediately trauaile out of Englande to Rome , to attende vpon his Holinesse , as Matthias saith , Vt Romanorum loculos impregnaret , in ruinam Regni Angliae : To stuffe the Romaines purses , and to decaie the Kingedome of Englande .

The Pope had the Tenthes of al the Spiritual Liuinges in Englande , Matthaeus Westmonasteriensis : Anno 1301. Anno. 1255. duringe the space of tenne whole yéeres .

Rustandus the Popes Legate exacted intolerable great paimentes of the Cleregie of Englande in a Synode holden in London , as Matthias saith , Per scripta Papae plena iniurijs , & iniquitate , quae possent patientissimum cor virulenter sauciare : Al this he did by the Authorite of the Popes Letters , ful of iniurie , and iniquitie : Whiche were hable moste cruellie to wounde any harte , were it neuer so patiente . The Bishoppes of London , & Worcester answeared the Popes Legate , that thei would rather lese theire liues , then they woulde geeue theire consente to so open iniurie , and seruitude , & intolerable oppression of the Churche .

The Kinge had entred into an Obligation to paie vnto the Pope twoo hundred thousande Markes , bisides other fiftie thousande pounde sterlinge , For paiement whereof , the Bishop of Herforde , beinge then the Popes Agente , had bounde the Bishoppes of Englande , before thei were ware . Sutche like pretie gnattes your Pope can straine , if Kinges and Princes wil geue him leaue .

Ioh innes Sarisburiensis , Iohan. Sarisburien . Li. 6. Ca. 24. otherwise called Rupertus Carnotensis , in the familiare talke , that he had with Pope Adriane . 4. saide thus vnto him : Ipse Romanus Pontifex omnibus ferè est intolerabils : Lae●atur spolijs Ecclesiarum : quaestum omnem reputat pietatem : Prouinciarum diripit spolia , acsi Thesauros Croesi studeat reparare : The Pope is nowe becomme vntolerable almoste to al the worlde : He reioiseth in the spoile of Churches : Al manner of gaine he counteth Holinesse : He maketh sutche hauocke of Kingedomes , and Prouinces , Lib. 5. Cap. 16. Acsi mittaturab Inferis Tesiphone , vel Megèra . Anno. 1247. Anno. 1257. as if he had intended to repaire againe croesus Treasurie . Againe , His Legates so rage , and rampe for monie , as if the Infernal Furies were sent from Helle to goe at libertie . What shal wée néede many wordes ? Ambition , and Auarice haue no bottome . Matthias Parisiensis saith , In Romana Curia omnia possunt pecuniae : Monie maie doo al thinges in y● Courte of Rome . And he calleth these vnsatiable prollinges of the Pope , Quotidianas Extorsiones , Daily Extorsions . Againe he saith , that the King of Englande , vpon a very friuolous , & fonde mater , made true paiemente vnto Pope Alexander the fourth , Quod est horribile cogitatu . D. Bonner . in praefatione in Libe●l Stephani Gardineri de Vera Obedien. Anno. 1240. of niene hundred , and fiftie thousande Markes . Whiche thing , he saith , is horrible , and abominable to be thought of . To be shorte , that yée maie the better viewe the bignesse , & quantitie of your Gnatte , Doctoure Boner hereof writeth thus : The Popes praie in Englande was so greate , that it came to as mutche almoste , as the Reuenewes of the Crowne .

Therefore Matthias saithe , Imperator reprehendit Regem Angliae , quòd permitteret terram suam tam impudenter per Papam depauperari : The Emperour frendely reproued Henry the 3. Kinge of Englande , for that he suffered the Kingdome so impudently to be compouerisshed by the Pope .

Againe he saith , King Henrie the third made open complainte by this Embassadour in the Councel of Lions in Fraunce , of the Popes innumerable Exactions .

Likewise he saith before , Anno. 1215. Rex Henricus 3. repressit impetum Legati . propter violentiam Denariorum : The Kinge staied the attemptes of the Popes Legate touchinge his intolerable greedinesse in prollinge for monie .

Yée sée therefore , M. Harding , neither is this gnatte so litle , as by your scorneful comparison , to the greate dishonoure of this Noble Realme , yée woulde séeme to make it : nor is the griefe , and complainte thereof so newe , as yée beare vs in hande . Wilihelmus Malmesburien Anno. 1031. Kinge Canutus , the Kinge of Englande almoste six hundred yéeres agoe , beinge at Rome , wrote home to the Archebishoppes , and Bishoppes , and States of the Realme , on this wise : Conquestus sum item coram Domino Papa , & mihi valdè displicere dixi , quòd mei Archiepiscopi in tantum angariabatur immensitate pecuniarum , quae ab eis expetebatur , &c. Also I haue made my complaint vnto the Pope , and told him , that it match ●●sliketh mee , that my Archebishoppes shoulde be vexed with sutche vnreasonable summes of monie required of them .

Likewise Matthias Parisiensis writeth of King William the Conquerour , Anno. 1094. Concipiens indignationem contra Papam , allegauit quòd nullus Archiepiscopus vel Episcopus de Regno suo , ad Curiam Romanam , vel ad Papam haberet respectum : Kinge William , vpon displeasure conceiued againste the Pope , said , that no Archebishop , or Bishop of his Realme , shoulde from thencefoorth haue regarde either to the Courte of Rome , or to the Pope .

Al this notwithstanding , yée saie , the Pope is an Elephant : & al these Summes , in Comparison of his treasures , are but a gnatte .

Verily , al these , and other far greater reckeninges the Realme of England is wel hable to defraie . Neither make wée any accoumpte of the monie , but of the deceitful extorting of the monie : neither is it dishonorable to the Realme , to represse these lewde , & iniurious mockeries , and to preserue the subiecte from open spoile . Other Kinges , & Countries haue oftentimes donne the same . Iewes the Frenche King . whom , Ludouicus . 9. for his Holinesse , they haue made a Saincte , hereof complaineth thus , Exactiones impositas per Romanam Curiam , quibus Regnum nostrum miserabiliter depauperatum est , leuari , aut colligi nullatenus volumus : These Exactions , or paimentes of monie laide vpon vs by the Courte of Rome , by meane whereof our Realme is miserably empouerished , we wil not in any wise to be leuied , or geathered . The gaines , & pelferies , that the Phariseis made of the people , were not so greate . Neuerthelesse Christe saide vnto them , Matth. 23. Woe be vnto you , yee Scribes and Phariseis , that rauen vp poore widowes houses , vnder pretense of longe praieinge .

Rome , yée saie , is the Mother Churche of al the Weast : & therefore , I trow , wée are bounde to paie , what so euer paimentes shée shal require . If wée allowe sutche simple reasons , then is the Pope likewise bounde to paie to the Churche of Hierusalem , what so euer paiementes she shal require . For Hierusalem is in déede the Mother Churche , not onely of the Weaste , but also of al the whole worlde . Howe be it , it is a cruel Mother , that deuoureth vp her owne Children . S. Paule saithe , Non debent filij parentibus thesaurizare , 2. Corin. 12. Lib. 6. Cap. 24. sed parentes filijs : The Children ought not to laie vp treasure for theire parentes , but the Parentes for theire Children . But Iohannes Sarisburiensis in his Polycraticon saithe , Roma nunc non tam matrem exhibet , quàm nouercam : Rome nowe sheweth her selfe not so mutche a natural Mother , as a Stepmother : For shee spoileth , and deuoureth her Children .

This Defender , yée saie , in makinge his ende so badde , hath plained the parte of a foolishe Poete . Here , M. Hardinge , wée haue good cause to thinke , your Diuinitie is waxen colde , séeinge you are thus driuen to pleade in Poetrie . But maie wée beleue , the Churche of Rome is growen so Holy , that monie is nowe becomme the vileste parte of al her Plaie ? Certainely , if your Pope once lose his monie , al his Plaiers wil soone sit a colde . Felin . De Offic. et Potest . Iudicis delegati . Ex parte . 1. One of your owne Doctours saithe thus , Cessante tali redditu , qui maximus est , attenta hodierna Tyrannide , Sedes Apostolica contemneretur : If this rente ( of Simonie ) whiche is very greate , were once staide , consideringe the Tyrannie of Princes , that nowe is , the Apostolike See of Rome woulde be despised . In whiche woordes thus mutche is also to be noted by the waie , that what so euer Prince wil not suffer the Pope to take what him listeth , muste be taken , and iudged , as a Tyranne . Therefore Ioannes Andreae , one of youre greattest Canonistes , In sexto . De Elect . & Electi potest . Fundamenta . In Gloss . saithe thus , Roma fundata fuit à Praedonibus : & adhuc de primordijs retinet : dicta Roma , quasi rodens manus . Vnde versus , Roma manus rodit : quos rodere non valet , odit : The firste fundation of Rome was laide by Theeues : and hitherto shee sauoureth of her beginninge : and is called Roma , quia rodit manus . Thereof commeth the common verse , Rome bireth you by the handes . And whom shee cannot bite , them shee hateth .

The state of the Romaine Popedome spronge firste of monie , and encreased by monie , and standeth nowe , neither by Truthe of Doctrine , nor by seueritie of Discipline , nor by Praier , nor by Holinesse , nor by ought els , but onely by monie . Set monie aparte , and the Pope is equal with other Bishoppes . Codrus Vrceus saithe , Codrus Vrceus . Sermon . 1. Pontifex Maximus , si non Virtute , tamen Pecunia : The Pope is the greatteste Bishop , although not in Vertue , yet at leaste in monie . Therefore wée maie saie of the Pope , Cicero ad Attic. Lib. 2. as Diphilus sommetime saide of Pompeius , Nostra miseria Magnus es . Baptista Mantuanus , speakinge of the state of Rome , saith thus , Venalia nobis Templa , Secerdotes , Altaria , Sacra , Coronae , Ignis , Thura , Preces , Coelum est venale , Deus●ue : Bmongeste vs , in Rome , Churches , Priestes , Altars , Masses , Crownes , Fire , Incense , Praiers , and Heauen are set to sale . Yee God him selfe emongeste vs maie be had for monie .

Budaeus saithe , Eudaeus in Pandectis . Sanctiones Pontificiae non moribus regendis vsui sunt : sed , propemodum dixerim , Argentariae faciendae Authoritatem videntur accommodare : The Popes Canons serue not nowe , to guide mennes liues , but , if I maie so saie , they serue rather to make a banke , and to geate monie .

Bernarde of Clunice saithe thus , Roma dat omnibus omnia dantibus : Bernardus Clun●acen . in Satyra Omnia Romae Cum Pretio . Rome geueth al thinges to them , that geue al thinges : Al thinges at Rome wil passe for monie . In Sexto . De Elect . & Electi Potestat . Fundamenta . In Margine . Euen in the Popes own Decretales yée shal finde it noted thus , Roma est Caput Auaritiae . Ideò omnia ibi venduntur : Rome is the Heade of al Couetous treacherie . And therefore al thinges there are set to sale .

Yea Thomas Becket him self , whom a litle before , yée called a Saincte , when , for his wilful disobedience , and Treason committed againste his Prince , he had for aide , and succoure , fledde to Rome , and sawe , that nothinge would be wrought there without monie , In Epist. ad Archi●pis . Moguntinum . thus he wrote he wrote thereof to the Bishop of Menze : Mater Roma facta est Meretrix , & prostituta est pro mercede : Rome our Mother is becomme an Harlot , and for monie , and meede laiethe her selfe to sale . To be shorte , yée knowe , that our Fathers , longe sithence , were woonte to saie , Curia Romana non captat Ouem sine lana : The Courte of Rome wil not take the Sheepe without the fliese .

Therefore , M. Hardinge , your Poete concluded in good order , and went not so farre bisides his Rules . For , monie is bothe the First , and the Middle , and the laste Acte of al your Fable .

Christe sommetime thruste sutche Buiers , Matth. 21. Sellers , Brokers , & Scorsers out of the Temple : But contrariwise , yée haue receiued in Buiers , and Sellers , & thruste out Christe : and so haue turned the House of God into a Caue of Theeues . S. Paule saith thus vnto the people of Ephesus , Actor . 20. Argentum , & Aurum nullius concupiui : I haue desired nomans Gould , or Syluer . Vpon whiche woordes , in the Glose it is noted thus , Per hoc Lupi cognoscuntur , qui talia concupiscunt : Hereby , they , 1. qu. 1. Nunquam Diuinatio . that desire sutche thinges , are knowen for woulues . S. Hierome saithe , Quia Prophetae pecuniam accipiebant , Prophetiae corum facta est Diuinatio : For that the Prophetes felle to taking of monie , therefore their Propheste was becomme a Soothe saieinge : that is to same , it was of the Diuel , and not of God .

Thus , M. Hardinge , to conclude , what so euer faulte yee can finde with the Defenders Poetrie , Verily , by the iudgement of your nearest frendes , Monie was the beste paare of al your Fable .

The Recapitulation of the Apologie .

THus thou seest , good Christian Reader , It is no newe thinge , though at this daie the Religion of Christe be enterteined with despites , and checkes , being but lately restoared , and , as it were , comminge vp againe anewe : for so mutche as the like hath chaunced bothe to Christe him selfe , and to his Apostles : yet neuerthelesse , for feare thou maiste suffer thee self to be leadde amisse , and to be seduced with those exclamations of our Aduersaries , wee haue declared at large vnto thee the very whole manner of our Religion , what our Faith is of God the Father , of his onely Sonne Iesus Christe , of the Holy Ghoste , of the Churche , of the Sacramentes , of the Ministerie , of the Scriptures , of Ceremonies , and of euery parte of Christian Beliefe . Wee haue saide , that wee abandon , and deteste , as plagues , and poisons , al those olde Heresies , whiche either the sacred Scriptures , or the Anciente Councelles haue vtterly condemned : that wee cal home againe , asmutche as in vs liethe , the right Discipline of the Churche , whiche our Aduersaries haue quite brought into a poore and weake case : That we pounishe al licenceousnesse of life , and vnrulinesse of manners , by the olde , and longe continued Lawes , and with as mutche sharpenesse as is conueniente , and liethe in our power : That we mainteine stil the state of Kingedomes , in the same condition , and state of honoure wherein we found them , without any diminishinge , or alteration , reseruinge vnto our Princes their Maiestie , and worldly preeminence safe , and without empairinge , to our possible power : That we haue so gotten our selues awaie from that Churche , whiche they had made a denne of Theeues , and wherein nothinge was in good frame , or once like to the Churche of God , and which by their owne confessions had erred many waies , euen as Lot in times past gate him out of Sodome , or Abraham out of Chaidee , not vpon a desire of contention , but by the warninge of God him selfe : And that we haue searched out of the Holy Bible , which we are sure , cannot deceiue , one sure fourme of Religion , & haue returned againe vnto the Primitiue Churche of the Anciente Fathers , and Apostles , that is to saie , to the grounde , and beginninge of thinges , vnto the very ●undations , and headspringes of Christes Churche .

And in very truthe we haue not tarried in this mater for the Authoritie , or consente of the Tridentine Councel , wherein we sawe nothinge donne vprightly , nor by good order : where also euery body was sworne to the maintenaunce of one man : where Princes Embassadours were contemned : where not one of our Diuines coulde be hearde , and where partes takinge , and Ambition was openly and earnestly procured and wrought : but as the Holy Fathers in former time , and as our Predecessours haue commonly donne , wee haue restored our Churches by a Prouincial Conuocation , and haue cleane shaken of , as our duetie was , the yoke , and tyrannie of the Bishop of Rome , to whom wee were not bounde : who also had no manner of thing lyke , neither to Christe , nor to Peter , nor to an Apostle , nor yet like to any Bishop at al. Finally , we saie , that we agree amongest our selues , touchinge the whole Iudgement , and chiefe substance of Christian Religion , and with one mouthe , and with one spirite doo woorship God , and the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe .

Wherefore , O Christian and Godly Reader , for so mutche , as thou seeste the Reasons , and Causes , bothe why wee haue resto●red Religion , and why we haue foresaken these menne , thou oughtest not to marueile , though we haue chosen to obeie our Maister Christe , rather then menne . S. Paule hath geuen vs warning , that wee should not suffer our selues to be carried awaie with sutche sundrie learninges , and to flee theire companies , specially sutche as woulde sowe debate and varience , cleane contrarie to the Doctrine , whiche they had receiued of Christe , and the Apostles .

Longe sithence haue these mennes craftes , and treacheries decaied , and vanished , and fledde awaie at the sight , and light of the Gospel , euen as the owle doothe at the sonne risinge . And albeit their trumperie be builte vp , and reared as highe as the Skie , yet euen in a momente , and as it were of it selfe , falleth it downe againe to the grounde , and commeth to naught .

For you muste not thinke , that al these thinges haue comme to passe by chaunce , or at aduenture : It hath benne Gods pleasure , that , againste al mennes willes wel nigh , the Gospel of Iesus Christe should be spread abroade throughout the whole worlde at these daies . And therefore menne folowinge Goddes commaundemente , haue of theire owne free wil resorted vnto the Doctrine of Iesus Christe .

And , for our partes , truely wee haue sought hereby , neither glorie , nor wealthe , nor pleasure , nor ease . For there is plentie of al these thinges with our Aduersaries .

And , when wee were of theire side , we enioied sutche worldly commodities mutche more liberally , and bountifully , then wee doo now .

Neither doo wee esche we Concorde , and Peace . But , to haue peace with man , wee wil not be at warre with God . The name of Peace is a sweete , and pleasante thinge , saith Hilarius : But yet beware , saithe he , Peace is one thinge , and bondage is an other . For , if it shoulde so be , as they seeke to haue it , that Christe shoulde be commaunded to keepe silence , that the Truthe of the Gospel shoulde be betraied , that horrible errours shoulde be cloked , that Christian mennes eies shoulde be bleared , and that they might be suffred to conspire openly againste God : this were not a Peace , but a most vngodly couenaunt of seruitude . There is a Peace , saithe Nazianzene , that is vnprofitable : againe , there is a Discorde , saithe he , that is profitable . For we muste conditionally desire Peace , so far , as is lawful before God , Matth. 10. and so far , as we maie conueniently . For otherwise , Christe him selfe brought not Peace into the worlde , but a swerde . Wherefore if the Pope wil haue vs reconciled to him , his duetie is first to be reconciled to God : For from thence , saithe Cyprian , springe Schismes and Sectes , bicause menne seeke not the Heade , and haue not their recourse to the Fountaine ( of the Scriptures ) and keepe not the Rules geuen by the Heauenly Teacher : For , saithe he , that is not Peace , but warre : neither is he ioined vnto the Churche , whiche is seuered from the Gospel . As for these menne , thei vse to make a marchendise of the name of Peace . For that Peace , whiche they so ●aine would haue , is onely a reast of idle bellies . They , & wee might easily be brought to atonemente , touchinge al these maters , were it not that Ambition . Gluttonie , and excesse doothe let it . Hence commeth theire whyninge : theire harte is on their Halfepennie . Out of doubte , theire clamours , and stirres be to none other ende , but to mainteine more shamefully , and naughtily il gotten goodes .

Nowe a daies the Pardoners complaine of vs , the Dataries , the Popes Collectours , 1. Tim. 6. the Bawdes , & others whiche thinke gaine to be godlinesse , and serue not Iesus Christe , but theire owne bellies . Many a daie agoe , and in the olde worlde , a woonderful greate aduantage grewe hereby to these kinde of people . But now they recken al is loste vnto them , that Christe gaineth . The Pope him selfe maketh a greate complaint at this present , that Charitie in people is waxen colde . And why so , trow yee . Forsoothe bicause his profites decaie more , and more . And for this cause dooth he hale vs into hatred , al that euer he maie , laieinge lode vpon vs with despiteful railinges , & condemning vs for Heretiques , to the ende , they , that vnderstand not the meter , maie thinke there be no woorse menne vpon earthe , then wee be . Notwithstanding , we in the meane season are neuer the more ashamed for al this : neither ought we to be ashamed of the Gospel : For we sette more by the Glorie of God , then wee doo by the estimation of menne . Wee are sure , al is true , that wee teache , and wee maie not either goe againste our owne conscience , or beare any witnesse againste God For if we denie any parte of the Gospel of Iesus Christe before menne , he on the other side wil denie vs before his Father . And if there be any , that wil stil be offended , and cannot endure Christes Doctrine , sutche , saie wee , be blinde , and Leaders of the blinde : the Truthe neuerthelesse muste be preached , and preferred aboue al : and wee muste with patience waite for Goddes Iudgemente .

Let these folke in the meane time take good heede , what thei doo , and let them be wel aduised of theire owne Saluation , and cease to hate , and persecute the Gospel of the Sonne of God , for feare lest they feele him once a redresser , and reuenger of his owne cause . God wil not suffer him selfe to be made a mockinge stocke . The world espieth a good while agoe , what there is adooinge abroade . This flame , the more it is keapte downe , so mutche the more with greater force , and strengthe doothe it breake out , and flie abroade . The vnfaithfulnesse shal not disapointe Goddes faithful promisse . And , if they shal refuse , to laie awaie this theire hardenesse of hart , and to receiue the Gospel of Christe , then shal Publicanes , and sinners goe before them into the Kingedome of Heauen .

God , and the Father of our Lorde Iesus Christe , open the eies of them al , that they maie be hable to see that blessed hope , whereunto thei haue benne called : so as we maie altogeather in one , glorifie him alone , who is the true God , and also that same Iesus Christe , whom he sente downe to vs from Heauen : vnto whom with the Father , and the Holy Ghoste , be geeuen al Honoure , and Glorie Euerlastingly . So be it .

FINIS .
To Maister Hardinge .

IT appeareth , M. Hardinge , by that yee haue lately sente vs ouer , and specially by the vnpleasante verdure of your speache , that my late Replie hath sommewhat disordered your quiete minde . Whiche thinge notwithstandinge I mighte easily haue gheassed , was not vnlikely to comme to passe , specially beinge before not vtterly vnskilful of your affections , Yet , as I neuer sought to write any thinge , that of pourpose , and iustely mighte offende you ( the righte of the cause , and the Defence of the Truthe euermore foreprised ) euen so am I nowe righte soary , to see you so vnhable to maister your passions , and so vnaduisedly to make them open vnto so many . If it greeue you in respecte of your credite , for that I haue thus discouered your errours , that was your faulte : it was not mine . If yee had not made your errours knowen , they shoulde neuer , of my parte , haue benne discouered . If you knewe , how soary I am in your behalfe , yee would not so impatientely be offended .

It misliketh you , that I haue alleged so many Doctours , and Councelles , and , as you saie , haue so ambitiously painted my Margine with so many Authorities , bothe Greeke , and Latine . Yet you , for your parte , haue not spared , ouer and bisides these twoo tongues , to painte your Margine , for a surcharge , with woordes in Hebrewe : bisides other sutche rankes of your Englishe Scholies , so many , so thicke , and so close togeather , that it were a harde mater , to force in one woorde of Truthe to stande emongest them . It is no courteous dealinge , M. Hardinge , to reproue that in others , that you so commonly doo your selfe .

If the Number of Doctours haue offended you , I doo not marueile : A cowardely Chalenger woulde alwaies wisshe the Defendente to comme vnarmed vnto the fighte . If I had alleged , either no Doctours at al , or nothinge to pourpose , as your woonte commonly is to doo , yee would haue borne it a greate deale better . How be it , my Authorities of Doctours , and Councelles , be they neuer so many , yet , as you haue vsed them , are fewe yenough . For of the whole number , by your good skil , more then three partes are leafte vntouched . And in deede this was the wiseste waie . Children , where they cannot reade , thinke it best , to skippe ouer .

Whereas I examine , and laie abroade al the partes , and branches of your Argumentes , and shewe , how directly yee growe to your Conclusions , that your Reader maie see , by what weapons yee seeke to maister him , this you saie is a kinde of scoffinge . Yee telle me , I racke , and alter , and abuse your Argumentes , and plaie with shadowes of mine owne . But , M. Hardinge , if yee wil haue your Argumentes to passe smoothely without controlment , then learne hencefoorthe to make them better . Yee are ouer tender , if yee looke to speake , what yee liste , and yet to heare nothinge , but to your likinge : and , to sende abroade sutche simple wares , to serue the people , and yet maie suffer noman to telle you of it . Verily , where yee saie , I haue of pourpose Changed your Argumentes , if yee make them otherwise , then I haue made them , hauinge alwaies an eie vnto your Conclusion , yee shal be forced to make them woorse . Touchinge the Scoffes , wherewith yee finde your selfe so mutche agreeued , doubtelesse , who so had that grace , that is in you , as maie wel appeare throughout al your Bookes , might soone deserue to be called a scoffer .

Where yee saie , you , and your Felowes haue espied a thousande fowle greate Lies in my writinges : had not one of you benne a greate Father of Lies , ye coulde neuer haue hitte so readily vpon the number . Sutche an Auditoure , I trowe , Laurent . Surius Carthusian . In praefatione in Nauclerum . was he , that founde vs oute eleuen thousande Lies in Sleidans storie . The very multitude hereof , and the hugenesse of the heape , as it be wraieth wel your stomake , so in any indifferent iudgemente , it decaieth the credite of your reckeninge . A man maie reasonably thinke , it is as possible , to finde twoo hundred , and fiftie Vntruthes in your Booke , as in mine to finde a thousande . Verily , as I neuer minded to defende any thinge , what so euer , that in any my writinges , shal be founde amisse , so I see , by the viewe of your accomptes , it were no harde mater , with your eies , to finde Vntruthes in the Gospel . For what so euer I saie , be it neuer so true , yet , if it like not your taste , it is a Lie : Whatsoeuer I allege , or translate , it is corrupted . So euil is my lucke : I can touche nothinge , but it is either too mutche , or too litle : or too shorte , or too longe : or too blacke , or too white : or one waie , or other it standeth awry . M. Hardinge , Reioinder : Fol. 203. b. If I translate , Nonnulli Sacerdotes , Sundrie Priestes , yee crie oute , A corrupter , a falsarie . I shoulde haue saide , Certaine Priestes , or , Somme Priestes : but I shoulde not in any wise haue saide , Sundrie .

If I translate , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Vnà nutritos , Fedde togeather , yee telle the worlde , It is Falsehedde , it is fowle corruption . Thus , yee saie , I shoulde haue translated it , M. Hardinge , Reioinder : Fol. 115. b. Eodem cibo alitos , Fedde with one kinde of meate : as if 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in Greeke , were not Vnà in Latine , or had not Relation to the Place . Deale herein with your frendes , M. Hardinge , as you maie : The Greeke Reader wil allow you no sutch Translations . If I happen to saie , M. Hard , saithe , The thing , that wee receiue in the Sacramente , is no Breade , M. Hard. Reioind . fol. 163. b. Yee crie , Alarma : Looke , yee saie , in my Booke , Reader : M. Iewel is an vntrue man : Here he is taken with a lie : Marke wel : I saie , It is not Breade : I saie not , It is No Breade . Not Breade , yee saie . No Breade , yee saie not : As if there were so many miles distance bitweene No and Nor.

These , and sutche like , be the shameful Vntruthes , and horrible Lies , that you , and your Felowes with greate seekinge , and diligence haue espied . And thus , if a man happen to vse Ensis , for Gladius , or Nam , for Enim , or Que , for Et , yee thinke it cause sufficiente to make a Tragedie . How be it I doubte not , but in my Replie , beinge so longe , and so ful of necessarie allegations , yee maie happen to finde somme ouer sightes of greatter importance . And in acknowledginge , and refourminge of the same , yee shal finde me as sharpe , and eger , as your selfe . But these fewe examples I haue touched by the waie , that it mighte appeare , howe inquisitiue , and fierce yee are , to seeke occasions : and that your Reader maie see , yee hunte wantonly , and renne riote , and open oftetimes without a cause . Yet notwithstandinge , if yee can telle vs sadly , as your manner is ; that M. Iewel bringeth triflinge obiections , and trasshe , and pelfe , and nothinge to pourpose , without learninge , without reason , without witte : that he racketh , that he stretcheth , that he wringeth , that he wreasteth , that he nippeth , and clippeth the Doctours , and Councelles : ( for these be the woordes , whereby yee thought , yee mighte best vtter your preaty fansies ) : If yee can crie oute , False partes , False reportes , False dealinges , False Marchantes , False Ballance , False Dise , and al is False : If yee can saie , Loe , Sir Defender , yee wrangle , yee trifle , yee are taken tardee , yee haue proued nothinge , yee haue nothinge to answeare : If yee can thus saie , and saie it boldely , it shal be sufficiente : al is safe : your frendes wil thinke , yee haue saide sommewhat , and that yee woulde neuer haue framed sutche a countenance , to saie nothinge .

Yee telle vs ful often , wee are no Bishoppes : I trowe , for that wee haue not sworne our obedience to the Pope . And therefore yee geeue the worlde to vnderstande , wee can consecrate no Ministers , wee can holde no Synodes , we canne doo nothinge . Euen so certaine your Forefathers in Olde times tolde S. Paule , 2. Corinth. 9. He was no Apostle : and others afterwarde by like authoritie tolde S. Basile , and S. Hilarie , they were no Bishoppes . But , M. Hardinge , they were False Apostles , they were Arian Heretiques , that so tolde them . It booteth not , to trie our titles before you . Wee wil onely saie with S. Paule : 1. Corinth 15. By the Grace of God wee are , that wee are . And , wee truste , wee haue not his Grace in vaine .

But specially , and aboue al other thinges , and that throughout al your three Bookes , yee saie , that Sir Defender is vnlearned : that his beste skil is in a fewe Figures of Rhetorique : that he hath neither Greeke , nor Logique , nor Philosophie , nor Diuinitie : that he hath readde no kinde of Doctours , nor Newe , nor Olde , nor of his owne , nor of others : that al the furniture of his Booke was broughte to his hande , somme by Greeke Readers , somme by Scholemaisters , M. Hard. Confuta. 21● . a Et 259. a. and commonly in other places . somme by Ciuilians , somme by Canonistes , somme by Summistes , somme by Glosers , somme by others : that he hath nothinge els but patched Notebookes , huddled togeather by snappes , and peeces . Some parte hereof , or rather the whole al togeather , without exception , to doo you pleasure , I would easily haue graunted you , M. Hardinge , vpon smal suite , with more fauoure , and lesse adoo . Take from mee , what learninge yee liste : distreine it , and pounde it at your pleasure : I wil neuer trouble you with Repleuin . How be it , if yee vtter al this of your indifferente iudgemente , and certaine knowledge , yet is it impertinente : for wee pleaded of Faithe , and not of Learninge : if otherwise yee speake it of heate of minde , and abundance of Cholere , and therevpon thus proclaime it vnto the world , it is great folie . Truely yee neuer sawe Sir Defenders Bookes , nor neuer sette your foote within his studie . A wise Iudge wil seldome pronounce , before he knowe . If it shal please you , for trial hereof , to sende your frende , he maie happily see , that Sir Defender hath al these Summistes , and Canonistes , and Greekereaders , and Scholemaisters , of his owne .

Notwithstanding , it maie becomme vs bothe to saie , as a Heathen wiseman sommetime saide , Socrates . This onely thinge wee knowe , that wee knowe nothinge . Goddes Truthe dependeth not of our knowledge . Our Tongues shal cease , and our knowledge shal faile : But the Glorie of God shal stande for euer . For my parte , I wil saie to you with S. Augustine , Quaere doctiores : sed caue praesumptores : Seeke others of more Learninge : but beware of them , that praesume of Learning . If any praise falle out in this respecte , bestowe it freely vpon your Greeke-readers , and Scholemaisters , who , in your iudgemente , haue beste deserued it . It shal be sufficiente for mee , to haue saide the Truthe : whiche , though it appeare neuer so simple , is hable to remoue a Mountaine of Learninge . But happy are your Brethren of Louaine , that are so speedily growen Learned vpon the suddaine , not by greate studie , I trowe , but rather by destinee . As soone as they had once sauoured the soile of that countrie , they lookte onely vpon twoo poore Titles of the Lawe , Extra . Li. 5. De Maledicis , and De Clerico promoto per saltum : and suddainely they were transfourmed , and nowe goe for Doctours .

As for your Learninge , M. Hardinge , wee neuer reproued it . How be it , greately to feare it , wee haue no cause . God geeue you Grace , yee maie wholy turne it to his glorie : leste in the daie of the Lorde it be laide againste you . He is ouer wel learned , that bendeth his Learninge againste God .

But , if wee be so vtterly voide of al manner of Learninge , paintinge , as you saie , our Bookes , and Margines with the Names , and Authorities of so many Doctours , what maie your frendes then thinke of you , that standing so longe in the Defence of your Priuate Masse , are not yet hable to allege one Doctoure , nor Greeke , nor Latine , nor one , nor other ? It seemeth greate marueile , yee shoulde haue sutche abundance of Doctours , and shewe so fewe , specially where it standeth you so mutche vpon , to open your stoare . Consider , I beseeche you , your late Reioinder : wherein , as it is thought , nothinge of your parte is leafte vntouched . Of the Seuen and twentie Articles conteined in my Replie , yee haue taken vpon you onely to answeare One. And yet of the same One , yee haue scarcely touched the tenthe parte . Your pourpose should haue benne therein , by euidente Examples , and good Authorities , substantially to haue proued your Priuate Masse .

Now consider the order , and plainenesse of your dealinge . Yee bestowe welneare the thirde parte of your Booke aboute the Sacrifice : as though there were no Sacrifice without Priuate Masse . Al the reste yee consume in idle discourses , and needelesse talkes , of Consecration , of the Intention of the Prieste , of Minglinge the water with the wine , of the Name of the Masse , of Transubstantiation , of Real Presence , of Churche Feastes , ( whiche in olde time were called Agapae ) , of Singulare Communion , of Communion of Faithe , of our Vnion with Christe , of sendinge abroade the Sacramente , of Priestes wiues , of Vowes , of Bigamie , of Good woorkes , of Onely Faithe , of Publique Praier in a tongue vnknowen , of Ceremonies , of Fourmes , of Accidentes , of the Epistles Decretal , of Clemens , Cletus , Anacletus , Abdias , Leontius , &c. Hereof yee haue tolde vs sutche thinges , as perhaps wee knewe before , and were not harde to be knowen , and perteined ful litle to the pourpose . Yee should rather haue proued , that within the firste sixe hundred yeeres after Christe , somme one , or other of the Holy Learned Catholique Fathers Ministred the Holy Communion openly in the Churche , and receiued the Sacramente Alone not diuidinge the same to any other , the whole multitude of the people sittinge , or standinge by , and lookinge on him . This was the mater , that laie bitweene vs : Hereunto yee should haue laide your force : This was it , yee should haue proued . For proufe of sutche thinges , as needed no proufe , yee haue brought foorthe greate shewes of Learninge . But as touchinge your Priuate Masse , whiche onely yee had taken in hande to proue , yee haue hitherto proued nothinge . Your Reader , M. Hardinge , can neuer be , neither so simple , nor so partial , but he muste needes haue an eie vnto your issue , and remember , what yee had in hande . If emongest so many , and so Learned woordes , he finde not one woorde of that he sought for , maie he not thinke , he hath loste his laboure , and that there is somme folie in your fardle ? Maie he not saie within him selfe , Quò nunc se proripit iste ? What shal I make of these vagaries ? what meaneth this man , to shoote so faire biside the marke ? He muste needes perceiue by your silence , that , notwithstandinge your so many faire , and liberal promisses , yet the thinge , he sought for , cannot be founde . Naie , you your selfe , for excuse hereof , by expresse woordes haue tolde vs plainely , M. Hard. Reioind . fol. 281. a. Et fol. 88. a. It mighte be , that none receiued the Sacramente with the Prieste : And againe , Whether the Prieste had alwaies a companie , M. Hard. in his Reioinder , in the Preface to the Reader . & . In the same Preface . & ij . M. Hardinge , Reioinder : Fol. 210. a. to receiue with him , or sommetimes receiued alone , that is a circumstance of a facte : the proufe whereof by manifeste Testimonies , cannot with reason be demaunded . Againe , It is contentious , to put vs to proufe of the Circumstance . Againe , It forceth not , whether wee bringe foorthe Testimonies of the sixe hundred yeeres , or no. Againe , Whether I can shewe , that a Masse was saide without companie presente to receiue with the Prieste , that saide it , or no , what skilleth it ? Againe , I must telle you , that I seeke not for Priuate Masse , Reioinder . 219. a. whiche to finde , your scoffinge pretendeth me to be desirous . I seeke not for that , whiche I acknowledge not . And againe , It forceth not greately , whether it maie be proued , or no : Whiche is as mutche , as if yee had tolde vs in plainer wise , that for the space of sixe hundred yeeres after Christe , yee can heare no tidinges in any Doctoure , or Councel , of your Priuate Masse . Whiche thinge , thus of your parte confessed , to our pourpose is sufficiente .

Now , touchinge the Authoritie of your Amphilochius , not long sithence , yee thought his force had benne inuincible . And therefore yee stoode vp alofte , M. Hardinge in his Answeare , Fol. 29. a. and braied alowde , Nowe M Iewel , and his Consacramentaries doo stagger , I doubte not . And for that cause , as if it had benne somme greate woorthy Authoure , yee alleged him seuen times , with special reuerence , in one Booke . Roioinder . fol. 267. b. And yet nowe at the laste , yee are contente , for shame , to turne him ouer , and to let him goe . Perhaps yee thought , for the while , a weake threede was sufficient to leade the people : and that , as folkes vse sommetimes to please children , yee might quenche their thirste with an emptie cuppe . Thus mutche hitherto , touchinge somme partes of your Reioinder .

Concerninge your Former Booke , whiche yee haue intitled , a Confutation , I neede to saie nothinge . By the iudgemente of the wise , it saithe sufficiently of it selfe . But what meante you , M. Hardinge , therein to make so large discourse , I wil not saie , in the Defence , ( for that woorde your frendes maie not beare ) but at the leaste in the fauoure of Open Stewes : and to calle the same , M. Hard. Confu . fol. 162. b. Malum necessarium , that is to saie , although an il thinge , yet sutche a thinge , as no good Common weale maie be without it ? What meante you , to that purpose , to shewe vs the name , and Authoritie of S. Augustine : and thus to vpbraide vs in the ende , Confu . fol. 162. a In good soothe , Maisters , ye are too yonge , to controlle the Cittie of Rome in her doinges ? What needed you to bestowe so fine eloquence in so fowle a cause ? M. Hard. Confu . fol. 163. a. Is vice growen so colde in Louaine , that it muste be enflamed , and authorized by open Writinge ? What meante you to allege the Prophete Dauid , the Euangeliste S. Mathewe , Confut. 251. a. & deinceps . and S. Paule the Apostle for proufe of your Pardonnes ? Wil yee telle vs , that Dauid , Matthewe , and Paule were Pardoners ? Or , if yee dare to telle vs so , must wee beleeue it ? If yee so manifestly mocke vs with open folies , howe maie wee truste you in higher Mysteries ? 2. Corin. 4. S. Paule saithe , Though our outwarde man be corrupted , yet our inwarde man is renewed daie by daie . Here yee telle vs , in greate soothe , M. Hard. Confut. fol. 117. a. Luke . 22. M. Hard Confut. fol. 192. b. that these woordes vndoubtedly serue to proue Purgatorie .

Christe saithe vnto Peter , I haue praied for thee &c. Therefore , yee saie , Christe nowe requireth vs , not to be obediente to Peter , or Paule , but to the Pope , that sitteth in theire Chaire . Christe saithe , M. Hard. Confu . Fol. 99. a. The Sonne of Man came , not to destroie , but to saue : Ergo , saie you , The Breade , and Wine in the Sacramente lose no parte of their former vertues : but remaine in Fourmes , and Accidentes , euen as they were before : as if the Sonne of God had come downe from Heauen to saue Accidentes .

Thus yee nippe of the sense , and meaninge of the Holy Scriptures , and feede vs onely with emptie woordes : as if yee woulde pike awaie the corne , and geeue vs the chaffe : or conueigh awaie the iewels , and throwe vs the bagge . O M. Hardinge , be not wilful : let your owne conscience leade you . Was this the meaninge of S. Paule ? was this the comminge of Christe into the worlde ? was this the sense of the Holy Ghoste ? I wil not saie , what Olde Doctour , or Anciente Father , but , what Summiste , what Canoniste , what Childe , what Heretique , euer either so vndiscretely , or so vnreuerently vsed the Woorde of God ?

I leaue the misconstrueinge , and falsifieinge of so many Fathers : the allowinge , and soothinge of manifest Forgeries : the vpholdinge of Abuses , and open Erroures : your weake Proufes : your seely Coniectures : your simple Gheasses : your greate Ouersightes : your bolde Affirmations : your heapes of Vntruthes : your disdeigneful Scornes : your immoderate Scoffes : your vngentile , and vnciuile woordes , as for example , Villanes , Theeues , Fooles , Disardes , Lourdaines &c. I leaue other your vnmannerly , and vncleanely speaches : Confuta. 318. b. Hungry Dogges eate dirty puddinges : As common as life with beggers : Confuta. 250. b. They serue the belly , and the thinges beneath the belly .

Was this a presente , M. Hardinge , meete either for the Modestie of a Virgine , or for the Maiestie of a Prince : specially sutche a Virgine , and sutche a Prince , so Chaste , so Graue , so Learned , so Wise , so Vertuous , so Godly , as Christendome seldome hath seene the like ? What ? thought you , that either her wisedome coulde not espie your fraudes , and mockeries : or , that her chaste eares coulde quietly beare your lothesome talke ? Or , thought you by the weight of sutche reasons , to mooue Mountaines , and to woorke woonders , and to force her Maiestie to leaue christe and his Gospel , and comme to Louaine to folowe you ?

Yee threape her Maiestie fondely with kindenesse , and , as yee woulde haue the worlde imagine , with good likinge , and fauouringe of your side : as if her Maiestie , hauing benne brought vp from her cradle in the knowledge and feare of God , and through Goddes greate Mercie , and accordinge to his knowen Wil , by the good aduise , and counsel of the states of her Realme , hauinge refourmed the House of God from the filthe , and soile of your diuises , shee stoode nowe in a mammeringe , and were not hable to discerne , either Falsehedde from Truthe , or Darkenesse from Light : or , as if your Errours were not so grosse , that a blinde man maie groape them with his Fingers .

Yee telle her Maiestie , shee hath neither Parlamente , nor Lawe , nor Churche , Confut. fol. 42. a. and so throughout the whole Booke . nor Cleregie : The Churche of Englande yee commonly calle the Tower of Babylon , the Synagog of Antichriste , and the Schoole of Sathan : ye charge her Maiestie with disordered proceedinges , with mainteinance of Infidelitie , Confut. fol. 5. a. 15. a. 38. a. 49. a. and so through the whole . of Sacrilege , of Schisme , of Heresie : For your possible power , ye dishonour her Maiestie , bothe abroade , and at home : where yee maie geate credite to your folies , yee sclaunder the gouernmente : yee disquiete her Maiesties louinge Subiectes : yee breede Seditions : yee procure Rebellions : yee hazarde her estate . And yet dare yee to pouder al this poison with a fewe dissembled , and sugred woordes , and to offer the same vnto her Maiestie for a presente ? Wel , M. Hardinge , if yee had foreseene the thankes , that her Maiestie moste iustely yeelded you for your trauailes , yee woulde not haue benne so bolde , so rudely to presse into her presence . It behooued you , to be aduised , not onely , what yee wrote , but also what Personage shoulde viewe your writinges .

If yee shal happen to write hereafter , sende vs fewer woordes , and more Learninge . If yee shal diuise to talke any more of your Priuate Masse , leaue your vagaries , and goe directly to the pourpose . Telle vs no moe sutche longe tales , either of the Sacrifice , or of other maters so farre from the question . It is no good Logique , to shifte of the thinge , yee haue in hande , and to mocke your poore Reader with an other . Treade not so nicely , and so gingerly , M. Hardinge . Saie not , your Masse is a Circumstance , and a mater of Facte , Reioinder . 232. b 233. a. and standeth onely vpon supposalles , and gheasses , and therefore needeth no further proufe . Why soulde yee so trifle with the simple ? This is the Issue , that falleth out bitweene vs : Whether any one of al the Anciente Learned Fathers &c. euer saide your Priuate Masse &c. This is it , that is denied . If yee proue not this , what so euer ye proue , yee proue nothinge . Bringe out somme Learned Father : shewe somme Catholique Doctoure : keepe them no lenger foorthe comminge . The worlde looketh yee shoulde deale plainely .

Denie nomore the manifeste Truthe : auouche nomore the open Falsehedde : Let there be somme probabilitie , and likelihoode in your saieinges . Leaue your immoderate , and vncourteous talkes . They are tokens of stomake , and not of Learninge . Therein yee haue deserued the honoure aboue al others . In sutche kinde of Eloquence noman can matche you , but your selfe . A good cause mighte haue benne pleaded with better woordes . The more vntemperate , and firy yee shewe your selfe without cause , the more in the ende wil appeare your folie . If yee haue hitherto taken any pleasure in speakinge il , at my hande , by hearinge il , yee shal not lose it . If yee bringe vs moe Fables of your Pardonnes , and Purgatories : If yee feede vs , as yee haue donne , with Vntruthes : If yee depraue the Scriptures : If yee falsifie the Doctoures : If yee Conclude without Premisses : If yee place your Antecedente at Rome , and your Consequente at Louaine : If yee stuffe so mutche paper , and blotte so many leaues , and shewe vs nothinge : briefely , if yee write none otherwise , then yee haue donne hitherto , no wise man wilgreately feare your force .

Deceiue not the simple . They are bought with price : They are the people of God , for whome Christe hath sheadde his Bloude . Your shiftes be miserable . Yee trouble your selfe , as a birde the lime . The more yee sturre , the faster yee cleaue : the longer yee striue , the weaker yee are . Yee cannot bridle the flowinge Seas : yee cannot blinde the Sonnebeames Kicke not stil againste the spurre : Geeue place vnto the Glorie of God . Wil yee , nil yee , the Truthe wil conquere . God geeue vs bothe humble hartes , and the people eies to see : that al fleashe maie be obediente to his wil. Amen .

From London . 27. Octobris . 1567. Iohn Sarisburie .
A Table of the principal maters Conteined in this Booke . A Absolution of madde men . 139. Absolution standeth not in the wil of the Prieste . 139. The Abomination of desolation . 446. Abuses in the masse , confessed by Pigghius . 456. Refourminge of Abuses . 133. Accidentes without subiecte . 253. Adoration of the Sacrament . 269. Wee neede no Aduocates vnto God . 316. Agreement in Religion . 194. Altars , or Communion Tables . 333. S. Ambrose refused the Emperours iudgement in Ecclesiastical causes . 689. Ambition in the Cleargie , the cause of greate euil . 409. Anacletus fondely misconstrued by M. Hardinge . 226. 227. Antichriste . 446. Antichriste in the Churche of God . 447. 448. Antichriste shal counterfaite Chastitie . 482. Antichriste in the Temple of God , and what Antichriste shal be . 434. Antonius learned in the Scriptures . 195. Weemen dissemblinge themselues in mens Apparrel . 376. Choise of Apparrel for Religions sake 346. 347. No difference in Apparrel . 346. 347 348. Superstitious holinesse in Apparrel . 344 345. Ecclesiastical brauerie in Apparrel . 641. The Apostles equal with Peter . 106 , 107 , 108. The Apostles aboue Kinges and Princes . 397. The Apologie authorized . 17. Athenes standinge . 376 ▪ 377. S. Augustines iudgement refused . ●98 . Augustine the Italian Monke . 11. Augustine the Italian Monke , aliue at the time of the warre . 493. Augustine the Italian Monke inflamer of the warre . ibidem . Augustine the Italian monke , Bishop in Englande . 492. The authoritie of the Doctours , and Fathers . 18. 19. Pretence of Antiquitie . 495. 496. B. Bacon . 454. Baptisme . 203. Baptisme of Infantes . 150. By Biptisme wee are vnited vnto Christe . 241. Wee are partakers of Christes Body and Bloude in the Sacramente of Baptisme . 271. Christe is he that Baptiseth . 215. The Power of Baptisme . 217. Baptisme is the Power of Resurrection . 221. Baptisme receiued without Faith . 216. Beleeue them not , spoken of Antichrist and his followers . 208. To Beleeue in God . 84. The recantation of Berengarius . 348. The Bernates lawful warre against the Duke of Sauoye . 389. Binding standeth in wilful refusing of the Woord of God . 142. Bishoppes called and conuented before the Prince . 637. 638. 639. A Bishop maie not put awaie his wise vnder pretence of holinesse . 185. Bishoppes sworne vnto the Pope : and the fourme of the Othe expressed . 43. Difference bitweene Bishop and Prieste . 198. Bishoppes within the Princes checke . 398. A Bishop bearing ciuile office . 512. Bishoppes proude , and disdeigneful in olde times . 409. Bishoppes , no Bishoppes . 117. The substance of Breade remaineth in the Sacramente . 231. The Bread is the body of Christ , in what sense . 246. 255. 257. 479. 480. The Bread of the Sacrament passeth by natural digestion , by the Iudgement of Origen . 258. 261. The Bread remaineth in substance as it was before . 247. 248. 249. 251. 252. 257. The Bread changed , in what sense . 247 248. 249. The Breade not annihilate . 248. The Breade hath a certaine likenesse of Christes Body . 254. The Buildinge and repairinge of Goddes Churche . 716. Burninge of the Scriptures . 477. C. Calixtus , for Anacletus . 226. The Calendar of Bishops names . 374. 375. Carnal libertie . 335. 336. Cathechumeni , or Beginners in the Fa●the . 139. Catholike , in many , or in few . 93 Catholike Churche , and what is meant thereby . 49. Ceremonies . 308. S. Augustine founde faulte with the multitude of Ceremonies . 308. 309. Ceremonies more estemed then the commaundementes of God . 308. 310. Vaine Ceremonies ought to be remoued with al speed conuenient . 309. Ceremonies haue power to quiet the conscience , and to remitte sinne 554. Diuersitie of Ceremonies . 309. Vowe of Chastitie , and lawful to breake the same . 168. 169. 170. Counterfaite Chastitie a marke of Antichriste . 183. Chastitie the gifte of God , & may not be commaunded by any man . 167. No one Chiefe but Christe . 340. Christes humanitie in one place . 85 87 88. 89. Christe and the Pope haue one place of Iudgemente . 95. Christes Body neuer promised to our bodily mouth . 274. To touche or to holde Christ . 288 Christe the onely Pope . 106. Christes Bloude not in the holy Cuppes . 265. Christes Body in one place . 276. 277. Christians hated , & sclaundered . 49. To approche vnto Christe . 288. To receiue or beare Christe . 285. 286. The spiritual receiuing of Christs Body . 348. Christes Body crusshed & torne with teeth . 349. Christes Body geeueth life . 241. Christes Body in Heauen . 233. Christes Body verily presente in the holy supper , in what sense . 271. 273. 276. The Christians in Graeciae and Asia abhorre the Pope and his Cleregie . 457. The Churche of Rome is departed from the primitiue Churche of God . 566. The deformities of the Churche of Rome . 568. The Churche in fewe . 571. The Churche knowen by Gods woorde . 3. The Churche of Rome can neuer erre , true or false . 430. 436. 437. 439. 440. 444. 445. Readinge of Chapters in the Churche . 552. 553. The Churche is aboue the worde of God . 557. 558. 559. 560. The Churche of Rome can not faile . 565. The miserable state of the Churche of Rome . 462. 463. The Pope is the whole Churche . 558. The Churche knowen by the woorde of God . 463. 464. 465. The state of the Churche decaied in the time of the olde Fathers . 442. The Authoritie of the Churches in Africa , as good as the authoritie of the Churche of Rome . 440. The Churche maie erre . 445. The Churche , if it depend of one man , shal sone decay . 448. 450. The Churche in fewe or many . 441. 442. 443. No Idolatrie in the Churche of Rome . 628. 629. The Churche maie be in a fewe . 93. 94. To beleue in the Churche : to beleue in Sainctes . 85. The Pope not the head of the Churche . 95. The Romaine Churche compared with the Churches of the Gospel . 585. The State and Vnitie of the Churche , dependeth of the Pope . 53. The Doctrine of the Churche of Rome , is the expresse woorde of God . 200. The Romaine Churche receiued the faith from the Greekes . 577. Euery Bishop , the head of his seueral Churche . 95. Vaine Titles of the Churche of Rome . 40. The authoritie of the Church . 55. Heare the Churche . ibidem . No Saluation without the Churche of Rome . 36. The Churche knowen by Gods woorde . 55. The Romaine Church vnlike the Church of the ancient Fathers . 21. The Churche of Rome fallen from God . 36. The Churche of Rome is the Catholique Churche . 36. The Churche builte vpon Iohn , aswel as vpon Peter . 107. The Churche inuisible . 391. The Greekes abhorre the Church of Rome . 36. The Ciuile Magistrate to be obeied . 394. The erroures and abuses of the Cleregie . 96. 104. The Communion in one Kinde , vsed firste by Heretiques . 230. Causes of the Communion vnder one kinde . 328. 329. Priestes Concubines . 511. A Prieste keepinge a Concubine , maie not therefore be refused in his ministration . 511. Concupiscence is verily sinne . 217. 218. Confession not commaunded . 155. 156. Confession auricular neuer named of the Ancient Fathers . 257. Confession of sinnes venial . 151. Confession of sinnes appointed , not by Goddes Woorde , but by Tradition . 133. Sinnes forgeeuen without Confession . 143. Confession of sinnes , not necessarie . 133. 143 151. Confession made by handwriting or by a broker . 137. Confession to be made onely vnto God . 140. Confirmation of Bishoppes . 129. Confession made vnto a laie man 137. Consecration , and diuers iudgementes of the same . 208. 209. Consecration of Bishoppes . 130. The donation of Constantine . 401. 537. 538. Constantine was Christened by Syluester : A fable . 670. Constantine the Emperoure in the Councel of Nice . 677. 678. 679. 680. The Emperoure Constantine stoode vpright at the Sermon , and would not sitte . 678. Courteghians remaininge stil in Rome . 382. Councelles lawfully called without the Popes consent . 529. Decrees of Councelles ratified , whether the Pope woulde or no. 53. The Authoritie of Councelles . 50 Priestes , Ministers , and Deacons in Councelles . 603. The credit of Councelles . 593. The Holy Ghost in Councels . 606 No good end of any Councels . 599 The Pope not alwaie president in Councelles . 57. The Authoritie of Councelles & Fathers . 57. Libertie of voice , and disputation denied in the Councel of Trente . 43. 44. The Truthe of Iudgemente was in that Councel that pronounced sentence against Christ . 622 The Authoritie of Councelles . 19 Authoritie to cal Councelles . 529 Confirmation of Councelles . 607 Councelles maie bee summoned whether the Pope wil or no. 665. Councel of Tridente . 597. The Pope not President in Councelles . 669. Councelles of Bishoppes . 674. The Emperoure summoned general Councels . 663. 664. 667. 670. 672. The Pope was summoned to come to Councels . 663. 666. The Pope Confirmeth Councelles . 665. The Popes Legates had not the first place in Councelles . 666. The freedome of the Councel of Trent . 627. 632. 633. Godly men haue refused to come to Councels . 629. 630. Councels called the determinations of men . 710. Councelles general , repealed by Councelles prouincial . 711. Dissensions in the Tridentine Councel . 634. Emperours and Kinges Embassadours in Councel without voice . 634. The Councel of Tridente of smal credite . 710. The Councel of Frankesorde . 712 A Councel general , what it is . 713 In the Summon of the Councel of Trente , the Pope had , forgotten the name of Christe . 710 The credite of Councelles , 488. The Emperours authoritie ouer Councelles . 674. Councel general , not general . 708 The Authoritie of Councels , certaine or vncertaine . 486. The number of Bishoppes in the Councel of Trident. 714. The Ciuile Prince or Magistrate subscribeth in Councel . 686. Diuerse formes of Creedes . 83. D. The office of Deacons . 98. Departinge from the Churche of Rome . 568. 569. 570. 574. 582. Departinge from the Pope . 104. Vaine Deuotion . 293. Disputation . 41. Dissensions in Religion . 337. 338. Dissentions in Religion amonge the olde Fathers . 340. Dissentions amonge the schoole Doctours . 341. 349. 350. The Diuision of the Empiere . 403 A Diuine power in the Pope . 403 The Duke of Sauoi● spoiled , 389. E. To Eate God . 278. 279. 239. 240. It is one thing to Eate Christe in Sacrament , & an other to Eate Christe in deede . 283. Grosse imagination of the Eating of Christes Body . 279. 280. The Emperoure a childe of the Churche . 155. The Emperour bound to sweare obedience to the Pope . 399. The Emperour so farre beneath the Pope , as the Moone is beneath the Sonne . 400. The Emperoure Stewarde of the Churche of Rome . 119. The Emperour maie translate the Supremacie from the Pope , to an other . 119. The Emperoure Prince of the whole worlde . 675. The Emperoure poisoned in the Sacramente . 408. The Emperoure maie lawfully make Ecclesiastical lawes . 692. 693. The Emperoure inferiour onely vnto God . 424. The Emperoure maie depose the Pope . 405. The Emperour waited vpon the Pope with bare heade and bare foote . 417. The Emperour is the Popes man 413. The Emperoure limiteth the Catholike Faithe . 668. The Enimies of God are cruel . 554 The Entention of the Priest . 209 Epiphanius rent an Image . 504. Equalitie of Bishoppes . 109. 111. 112. The other Apostles Equal with Peter . 105. The Pope Equal with other Bishoppes . 109. Erroures & abuses of the Church of Rome confessed by her owne children . 627. Errours in the olde Fathers . 337. 338. Errours among the Fathers touchinge the Body of Christ . 353. The Popes immoderate and Vnreasonable Exactions of monie . 734. 735. 736. 737. 738. To follow the Example of Christ 575. Exorcistes . 98. Vniuste Excommunication . 41. Excommunication without cause . 583. F. One learned Father receiued before a Councel . 52. Fables and tales readde in Churches . 520. The firste Faithe . 170. Perfitte Faithe in Heathens . 320. The Faithe planted in Englande before Augustine . 11. Christes body presente onely by Faithe . 235. Wee aseende by Faith into Heauen , and so eate the fleashe of Christe . 269. 270. 287. The holy Fathers ouersightes in the allegation of stories . 416. The Body of Christe eaten by Faithe . 221. 224. By Faithe wee see , and touche Christe . 271. 272. 273. 289. Faith is the kaie of the kingdom of Heauen . 138. The Authoritie of the Fathers . 52. 58. 59. 60. 61. 62. 63. 64. 69. Faithe of Infantes . 216. Faithe eateth . 〈◊〉 234. 235. 239. The Faithe of the parentes helpeth the Infantes . 216. The paterne of the Faithe . 702. 703. 706. 707. Faithe eateth Christe beinge absente . 220. 221. Christe present by Faithe . 289. Fastinge vpon any certaine daies , not apointed . 197. 198. Fasting with fleashe . 197. Faithe without woorkes , is no Faithe . 321. Fond Faithe is no Faithe . 293. By Faithe wee eate Christe . 289. Christes death applied by Faithe . 298. By Faithe wee are incorporate vnto Christe . 241. 243. Church in fewe , or many . 327. 328 Shifte of Figures vsed by . M. Hardinge . 269. A Figure is not the thing it selfe . 205. Flamines , and Archiflamines . 121. The florishing state of Kinge Pipinus life . 406. Fornication in a Priest more tolerable then mariage . 366. 367. Simple Fornication , whether it be sinne , or no sinne . 360. Fornication winked at by the Popes Canons . 362. The fourme of Baptisme . 203. Fourme , and Substance . 98. 89. Formes , and accidentes . 205. 231. 232. A prieste maie not be deposed for Fornication . 189. Franciscus Dandal●s . 414. Free wil , how free , how bonde . 13● Perfit fulfilling of the law . 316. 317 The fulfilling of the Lawe , possible , or impossible . 317. G. Gerson . 454. Goddes Truthe mutable . 438. The credite of Goddes Woorde hangeth on the Pope . 438. The Gospel encreased of smal beginninges . 34. The Gospel of Christe reproued for noueltie . 490. 491. 496. The fruites of the Gospel . 51. The Gospel of Christe shal not stande . 22. The Gospel of Christe sclaundērously called grosse and fleashely . 32. The encrease of the Gospel . 38. The Gospel in Princes Courtes . 34. 35. The Authoritie of Gratian. 28. Gratian often deceiued . 226. The Greekes haue neither priuate Masse nor half communion nor Purgatorie . 578. 579. 580. Guilty of the Body , & Bloud , &c. 587. 588. H. The Halfe communion weakely proued . 480. 481. M. Harding abateth fiue hundred yeeres of his reckeninge . 32. M. Harding misallegeth S. Augustine . 141. M. Harding fondly applieth these woordes of Christe , The sonne of man came not to destroie , but to saue . 254. 255. M. Harding misconstrueth S. Augustine . 61. 62. M. Hardinge mistaketh Iosua for Osee . 101. Heade of the Churche . 94. Henry 4. and his qualities . 419. A woman Head of the Church . 644 Heretiques alleged Scriptures . 57. 58. 59. 60. 467. Heretiques suppresse the Scriptutes . 481. The Definition of Heresie . 46. The note of Herersie maie not be dissembled . 45. Heretiques discredite the Scriptures . 488. Heretiques allege the Doctoures and Fathers . 495. Heretiques accuse the Scriptures . 78. 474. Popes haue benne Heretiques . 612. 614. 615. 616. 617. Heretiques confound al thinges , bicause they cannot discerne the Creator from the Creature . 295. Ruffinus an Heretique . 672. Heretiques alleged Councelles , and Fathers . 57. Heresie in good parte . 48. 49. Heretiques woulde be called Catholiques . 433. Heretiques holde by Tradition . 199. Heretiques clothed with the name of the Churche . 2. Condemned of Heresi vpon light occasions . 46. Godly menne accused of Heresi . 631. Hieremie sette ouer Kingdomes and nations , in what sense . 399 The Higheste Prieste . 526. 527. Holy Orders . 96. 97. Holy Orders without offices . 98. The Holy Ghost is God . 90. Holy Water . 21. Hosius Iudgemente of the Scriptures . 468. Hosius mistaken . 472. Huldericus the Bishop of Augusta . 186. Husbande of one wife , and the meaninge thereof , 174. Hus , and Hierome of Prage . 48. I. S. Iames Epistle . 193. The ignorance of the Cleregie in times paste . 371. Images in Churches . 505. Adouring of Images . 503. Images painted in walles . 502. The blasphemous Inuocation of our Lady , called by M. Hard. a spiritual daliance . 313. India conuerted . 37. Innocentius 3. said , he would either lose his Triple miter , or els he woulde pulle th emperour Philips Crown● Empeperial from his heade . 398. Inuocation of Sainctes . 311. Dame Iohane the Pope . 374. Iohannes Casa . 383. Iohannes Diazius slaine by the procurement of his Brother . 383 Iohannes Camo●ensis . 618. Goddes Iudgement foloweth the Iudgement of the Priest , Reproued . 154. The Prieste Iudge ouer sinne . 152. The Iuste man trusteth not in his owne righteousnese . 323. The lust man sinneth , and deserueth euil . 321. 322. Iustification by Faith onely . 74. Iustinian the Emperour deposed ij . Popes . 690. 691. K. The woorde of God is the Keie . 144. 152. The Popes Keie shutteth , and openeth not . 143. Many Priestes haue not the Keie of Knowledge . 136. Confusion of Keies . 160. Peters Kaie greater then his fellowes . 161. 162. 163. The Keie of Instruction , and the Keie of Correction . 149. Peters Keie equal with the reste 162. 163. Somme Priestes haue no Keie at al. 145. Knowledge is not the principal Keie . ibidem . Kinges , and Emperours hold the Popes stirope , and leade his horse , beare his traine , and cari● his dishe . 412. Kinges maie lawfully deale in Ecclesiastical causes . 636. 645. 647. 648. 654. 655. 656. 657. 658. 659. 660. 682. 683. 684. 688. Kinges not alwaies anointed by Bishoppes . 696. King Iohn of England poisoned . 409. Kinges Fosterers , and Queenes Nurses of the Churche . 649. L. The Lamb laide vpon the Table , in what sense . 282. 283. Laie men , after a certaine sorte , be Priestes . 131. They mystical Latine tongue . 517 The Lambe of God is slaine in the Holy Supper , in what sense 286. A Laie man maie remitte Sinnes . 137. Lenten faste . 198. Lenten fast , & Lenten meates . 270 God causeth his light to shine out of barbarous and despised places . 391. Liga Sotularia . 388. Laghtes . 13. Lightes , & tapers in Churches , 20 M. Priestes haue Married . 514. Marriage letteth not Praier . 172. Good causes why Priestes shoulde bee set at libertie , touchinge Marriage . 187. 188. 189. 190. Priestes Married within holy orders . 175. 176. Marriage hindereth . 182. The restrainte of Marriage the doctrine of Deu●lles . 182. 183. Bishoppes and Priestes Mar●ied . 166. 167. 184. Marriage hindreth not the Bishoppes dutie . 177. The Apostles doctrine touchinge Marriage . 184. 185. 186. Marriage Condemned . 165. Seconde Marriage is Fornication , in what sense . 174. 175. Not laweful to breake Priestes marriage . 185. Marriage contracted after a vowe is Laweful . 459. Priestes Marriage allowed . 173. Seconde Marriage condemned . 166 Marriage furthereth the Bishops dutie . 178. 179. 180. Marriage forbidden , not fornication . 182. Al the Apostles , Iohn excepted , were Married . 166. 184. Better to Marrie , then to burne . 184. Bishoppes twise Married . 174. A Prieste maie Marrie . 171. Monkes Married . 176 Priestes Marriage not forbidden . 185. 186. Christes deathe applied by the Masse without Faithe . 297. Matrimonie chaste and pure . 513. Churche in many , or fewe . 38. 39. Matrimonie , neither good , nor il . 178. The cares of Matrimonie , ibidem . The blessed Virgin Marie , Idolatrously abused by Heretiques . 312. Martyrdome standeth not in the deathe , but in the cause . 30. The Bookes of the Machabees . 193 The Masse seuen hundred yeeres in furnishinge . 194. Godly menne , counted madde . 80. A Prieste beinge Married ought not therefore to be refused in the ministration . 513. One Masse , or Communion , in one daie . 524. The Emperoure appointed Metropolitanes . 122. Truste in Merites . 77. Mediatoure of Saluation : Mediatour of intercession . 311. Merite and Mercie . 319. 321. Miracles . 37. 294. 699. Miracles wrought by fained Christians . 700. The seruantes of Christe knowen by that they woorke no Miracles . 699. Miracles wrought by subtile menne , or by the Diuel . 294. Whether a Mouse maie eate the Bodie of Christe , M. Hardings Doctours cannot tel . 236. 260. The order of Monkes in olde times . 624. Superstition and couetousnes in Monkes . 625. Monkes life , Gods seruice . 509. Laweful suppressinge of Monasteries . 600. Monasteries suppressed by the godly Fathers . 510. Monkes liuinge by their labour of theire handes . 508. 509. 510. Monkes from Christe , and the Prophetes . 66. To be the Mother of God , is lesse then to be the childe of God . 314 Multiplication of keies . 145. N. Newenes in Religion . 32. 490. 491. Nominales and Reales . 344. Nouatus . 134. O. Obedience . 16. Obedience vnto man . 345. Christes Body offered , in what sense . 277. Oile hallowed . 20. Oile in S. Iames . 73. One Head , one Iudge . 336. One onely Bishop . 122. 451. 452. Peter the Onely Bishop . 106. One Heade . 101. One Shepheard , & one Flocke . 102. One Bishoprike , Expounded . 112. 113 Open confession . 140. Origens Iudgement of the Sacrament . 501. Our God , our Lorde : My God , my Lorde . 386. P. Paphnutius . 173. The storie of Paphnutius reproued . ibid. Parlaments holden without consente of Bishoppes . 596. Pardons . 402. Maters of Religion determined in Parlament . 596. Parlament , no Parlament . 595. Patriarkes without office . 714. We maie not beleeue Paule , if he speake as of him selfe . 108. Paule had no neede of Poter . 106. S. Paule , and S. Iames accorded . 75 Pauperes à Lugduno . 454. The People dothe communicate by the mouth of the Priest . 297 The People is in the cuppe . 283. Patience in Persecution . 335. Persecution a token of the truthe 10. Persecution for Loue . 24. 25. The Godly woorke no Persecution . 732. The wicked complaine of Persecution . 730. Truthe groweth by Persecution . 484. Persecution , & deliting in Bloud . 30 Persecution for the Truthes sake . 484. The Churche encreaseth by Persecution . 31. Peter ouer mutche auanced . 111. Peter the Shepheard , and the Apostles the sheepe . 106. Peter Martyr and others falsely slaundered . 475. The Apostles receiued theire power of Peter . 106. Petrus Aloisius the Popes sonne . 382 Pius 4. endangered by his Cardidinalles . 41. The Popes Chaire of Porphyrie stoane . 379. The Pope preuaileth by darknes and Ignorance . 698. Whether the Pope be Iudas , or Peter , it skilleth not . 622. A certaine Diuine Power in the Pope . 541. The Pope is the Heade springe of al Lawes . 542. 543. The Pope Lorde and God . 540. The Pope hathe power ouer the Angels of God . 543. Popes and Cardinalles nothing● differinge from ciuil Princes . 640. 641. The Pope Vicar to Iulius Caesar . 674. The Popes Pardons . 547. 548. The Pope succedeth Constantinus . 674. The Pope noted for Antichriste . 457. 458. 459. 460. Al other Bishoppes receiue of the Popes fulnesse . 531. The Pope maie not be iudged by any Prince , or other power . 532 533. The Pope vseth bothe siverdes 522. 523. 528. Emperours & kinges receiue their free libertie of the Pope 534. 535 The Pope aboue the Emperosi●e as far as the sonne is aboue the Moone . 536. The Pope hathe al Lawes in his breaste . 482. Popes or Bishoppes of Rome , Priestes sonnes . 166. Wherein the Pope is like to Peter . 726. The Pope can neuer erre . 725. The Pope is aboue Kinges and Emperoures . 397. The Pope a Christian man by the vertue of his office . 674. 675. The Pope absolueth by a deputie . 161. The Pope is a King . 650. 651. 652. The Pope is no Kinge . 653. The Popes power supernatural . 695 , 696. The Pope and his clergie vnlearned . 705. The Pope Peters Successor . 675. The Pope choketh the power of al other Bishoppes . 125. The Pope ridinge in his Pontificalibus . 293. 294. Pope Hildebrande . 420. 421. The Pope treadeth on the Emperoures necke . 422. The Popes factes whatsoeuer thei be , are excused . 423. The Pope inferior to the Prince . 425. 426. The Pope submitteth him selfe to the Emperoure . 425. The Pope no vniuersal Bishop , but limited onely to a part . 427 The Popes and Cardinalles by their owne frendes compared to the Scribes & Phariseis . 430 Wee are bound to obey , not Peter and Paule , but the Pope . 431 The Pope heir apparent vnto the Empire . 417. The Pope ouerthroweth the Emperours crowne with his foote . 418. The Pope may depose kinges and Emperours . 404. 405. The Pope , whatsoeuer he be , is euer holy . 423. The Pope armeth Henry the sonne against his Father . 419. The Popes saueconducte . 633. The Popes Legates , firebrandes of troubles . 402. The Pope woulde haue deposed Philippe the Frenche King . 407 The Popes faith can not faile . 436 The Pope claimed the Kingdom of Fraunce to him selfe . 407. No Saluation without the Pope . 104. The Pope Iudge in his owne cause . 608. The Pope appointeth Kinges and Emperours to kisse his feete . 410. The Pope keepeth not his owne Councels . 525. Pope Iohns erroure , touching the immortalitie of the soule . 617. The Pope discouered . 4. The Pope aboue the general Councel . 609. 610. 611. Christe , and his Apostles coulde not rule the Church better than it is now ruled by the Pope . 551. Pet●●e Popes . 100. The Pope maie dispense againste Gods woorde . 51. 330. 331. Al power geuen to the Pope 532. Pope Zofimus corrupted the Councel of Nice . 612. The Pope vncertaine of his owne succession . 129. The Pope admitted by the Emperours letters parents . 130. The Pope teacheth Humilitie in the Schole of pride . 410. The Popes vniuersal power . 104. The Popes power not Vniuersal . 115. 116. 123. The Prieste hath the same power that Christe had . 138. The Pope receiueth his ciuile iurisdiction from the Prince . 534. 535 The Pope is Lorde of Lordes , and King of Kinges . 544. It were best the whole world in al cases were ruled by the Pope alone . 400. The Pope so far aboue the King as God is aboue a man . 397. The Pope , the Prince , bothe of the heauenly , and also of the worldly Kingdome . 95. The Pope hathe free libertie to doo euil . 533. The Popes Authoritie was but smal before the Councel of Nice . 115. The Pope the Headshepheard . 17. The Pope equal in credite with other Bishoppes . 52. 53. The Pope maie make a Bishop onely by his woorde . 129. The Pope summo●●●d by the Emperour to appeare at Councels . 57 The Popes credite aboue the Gospel . 51. One Pope contrarie in iudgement to an other . 52. 100. 466. The Pope maie erre as a Priuate man : but in publique iudgement he cannot erre . 52. The Popes equal with the other Patriarkes . 53● . Al power geeuen to the Pope . 103 The Popes power ouer Purgatorie . 542. The Pope is no mere natural man 541. The Pope the vniuersal Bishop of al the worlde . 530. Pope Leo , touching his own Sec. 111 The Pope , Prince of Pastours . 112. The Pope equal with the other Petriarkes . 115. The Pope no vniuersal Bishop . 118. 121. The Pope hardly obteined to bee called the head of the churche . 118 The Pope aboue the whole Churche . 65. A simple Prieste aboue the pope . 397. To disobeie the Pope . 40. The Pope encreased in power , abated in holinesse . 16. The dissolution of the Empiere wrought by the Pope . Ibidem . The Pope maie bestowe the Empire at his pleasure . 400. Pope Zacharie deposed Childericus the Frenche King . 403. The Pope is al , and aboue al. 619. The Popes iudgemente aboue al the iudgement of the world ▪ 482. The encreasing of the Popes temporal power . 403. Pope Victor poisoned in the Chalice . 40● . The Pope is more then God . 397. The Popes stoole of Porphyris stoane . 410. Kinges and Princes sweare obedience to the Pope . 396. The Pope placeth him self aboue the Empier . 398. The Pope him selfe woulde not be called the vniuersal Bishop . 45● The Pope can haue no Superioure . 424. The Pope is Christe . 461. The Pope and his Clergie fallen from God . 453. Departing from the Pope . 430. 431. The Pope had no authoritie to summone Councels . 671. The Popes honor preiudicial to to the honor of God . 398. The Pope is the onely Lorde of temporal thinges . 426. Pope Syluester dead before the Councel of Nice . 666. The Emperours place in Councel at the Popes feete . 635. A priuate man saieing the truthe , is to be heard before the Pope . 431. Popes and Cardinalles entangled with worldly affaires . 640. It is sufficient for vs to do●●es the Pope willeth vs . 431. The Ambition of the Pope . 426. The Pope is the light that came in to the worlde . 619. The Pope is not the head of al Churches . 451. 452. The Pope hath inuaded the right of al inferiour Bishoppes . 452. Pope Adrian confess●th that al euil grewe from the See of Rome . 454 455. The Pope and his Clergie , Spoilers and Trai●●●rs . 462. 463. Praier in a strange tonge . 516. The Pride of Rome . 110. 119. Moses a Prieste . 651. Priestes Concubines allowed . 363. 367 370. Priestes take vpon them the proude lookes of the Phariseis . 153. 154. Laie men in a certaine sense to be called Priestes . 652. The Priestes power in remittinge sinne . 158. 159. Priestes , or elders . 603. Prince of Priestes , or hiest Bishop ▪ a title geuen to many Bishops 121 Godly Princes careful for Goddes causes . 34. 35. The Prince the Supreme gouernoure in Ecclesiastical causes . 643. 644. 645. 647. The Prince , touchinge his obedience towardes God , is a priuate man . 394. The Prince bounde to write out the booke of the Lawe . 648. 649. Flatteringe of Princes . 591. Priuate Masse coldely auouched by M. Hardinge . 225. 226. 227. The Prophetes of God called Heretiques . 233. The Popes power ouer Purgatorie . 299. Old fantasies of Purgatorie . 299. 300. Praier for the dead importeth not Purgatorie . 300. Vaine proues for Purgatorie . 301. The Bloude of Christe is our true Purgatorie . 301. 305. 306. There is no Purgatorie . 302. Scriptures disprouing Purgatotie . 304 Purgatorie Imagined by the Heathens 305. Contrarie opinions of Purgatorie . 306. Roffensis confesseth that the olde Fathers made little mention of Purgatorie . 307. The Greekes neuer beleeued Purgatorie . 302. 307. S. Augustine doubteth of Purgatorie 305. M. Hardinge imagineth double fire in Purgatorie . 306. S. Augustine denieth Purgatorie . ibid. Paule and Peter muste passe through Purgatorie . 301. Q. Quodammodo miscetur mihi . 242. 243 R. Readers . 98. Readinge of the Scriptures without praier . 195. Children of xiiij . yeres of age admitted to be Readers in the Churche . 602. Rebellion . 16. The Boures Rebellion in Germanie . 388 Recourse to Rome . 702. 703. 704. Reconciliation of dissensions . 354. Regimente of weemenne . 389. Relikes , or dead mennes boanes . 705. The Kinge determineth cases in Religion . 12. The cause of Resurrection . 324. 325. The good man woorketh good things , without hope of Reward . 320 Our perfection of Righteousnesse is vnperfit . 317. 318. The Romaine Religion in many pointes agreable with the Manichees . 17. The Romaine cleregie deceiuers , false teachers , and Pilates . 461. The Romaine Faith shal neuer faile . 22 The Romaine Faithe spoken of thorough the worlde . 436. The filthie life of the Romaine Clergie . 367. 368. Erroures and abuses in the Romaine Churche confessed . 24. Rome is Babylon . 719. 720. Fond questions resolued at Rome . 704. The Tragedies of Rome . 79. Rome the roote of euil . 455. Departure from the Churche of Rome . 17. S. Two Sacramentes . 202. 214. Sacramentes ministred without vnderstandinge . 203. Sacramentes sanctifie , and conteine grace . 203. 204. Sacramentes be signes . 205. Vehement phrases of the Sacramentes , 246. The grace of the Sacramentes . 235. The number of Sacramentes . 212. 213. Sacramentes be woordes visible . 145. Sacrament turned into a Diuine substance . 252. The Breade and Wine of the Sacrament doo nourishe . 205. The Scaramentes of the olde Lawe , & the newe . 206. The visible partes of Sacramentes are thinges corruptible . 257. 260. Goddes special woorking in al Sacramentes . 254. The Sacrament is a figure . 244. Goddes omnipotente power in the Sacramentes . 245. In the Sacramente , or by the Sacramente . 232. Sacramentes are Seales of Gods promisses . 134. Sacraments necessarie , & how . 149. 150 The diuiding or breaking of the Sacrament . 521. Nature , Power , Vertue in Sacraments . 253. 254. M. Harding referreth the Iudgement of Sacramentes to his senses . 255. Disdaineful speaches of the Sacraments vsed by M. Hardinge . 268. Christe is crucified , and dieth in the Sacramente . 269. The Sacramente changed into the substance of our fleashe . 259. Sacramentes are signes . 73. Vehement speeches of the Sacrament 239. The Bread changed into a Sacrament 244. The Sacramente vnder bothe kindes of Christes Institution . 229. 230. The Sacramentes of the newe Lawe geue grace , in what sense . 062. The difference bitweene the Sacrament , and the substance of the Sacramente . 222. 224. The Sacramentes woorke in vs the hope of Resurrection . 221. 222. The carieing about of the Sacrament 293. 295. The Sacramente dependeth not on the Minister . 215. The Sacramente is one thinge , and Christes Body is an other thing . 222 230. 232. 268. The Sacrifice of Melchisedeth . 434. Sainctes offices distincted . 313. Sale of Masses , and of Merites . 292. Certaintie of Saluation . 75. The Schoole Doctours . 19. The Scripture a deade letter . 473. 474 The Scriptures translated into diuers tonges . 588. 589. The Scriptures preserued by Goddes prouidence . 478. The people ought to reade the Scriptures . 506. The Scriptures preserued by the Iues 478. The Scriptures inferioure to the Churche . 474. The Scriptures take theire force of the Churche of Rome . 456. 593. Ignorance of Scriptures is sinne . 590. The Scripture standeth in the sense , & not in the woordes . 54. 72. 194. Howe knowe you that these be the Scriptures ? a fonde question . 200. Scriptures at diuerse times , diuersely expounded . 78. Scripture receaueth authoritie of the Churche . 77. The old translation of the Scriptures corrupted . 598. The Scriptures fowly abused . 53. 77. 467. Scriptures onely to be read in Churches . 519. Scriptures folowe the Churche , and not the Churche the Scriptures . 78. Wee maie not heare an Angel of God against the Scriptures . 485. The Heretiques alleged the Scriptures . 72. The simplest of the people in olde times disputed of the Scriptures . 507 The Scriptures disclose al errours . 481 Grace to discerne Scriptures . 201. Boastinge of the Holy Ghoste without the Scriptures . 65. Gods Scriptures lewdely scorned . 193. Scriptures forged . 201. The authoritie of the Scriptures . 69. The simple people maie reade the Scrip 〈◊〉 . 589. 590. The people cannot iudge of the Scriptures , because the Scholar is not aboue his Maister . 487. Towardes the ende of the world , the people shal flee to the Scriptures . 716. 721. Scriptures sufficiete to debate al doubtes . 58. 59. 61. 62. 64. 69. The Scriptures of God muste be expounded by the Sprite of God . 65. Searche the Scriptures . 72. To selle Christe . 292. Simple erroure . 46. 50. A Priest maie not be deposed for simple fornication . 362. 363. 364. 365. Simple fornication , whether it bee sinne , or no. 361. The Iudge of Sinne . 140. ●53 . The worde of God forgeueth Sinnes . 158. Sinne forgeuen without Cousesnō . 155. The Pope cannot committe Simonie . 560. 561. 562. 563. Vnchaste single life , worse then aduoutrie . 170. Filthines maintained vnder the color of single life . 167. 168. The Prieste forgeueth not Sinne . 154. Sinnes forgeuen by hearinge the woorde of God . 138. The frutes of single life . 187. 188. 189. Singe●s . 98. Spiritual eating of Christes Bodie . 271 272. 274. 280. Stewes in Rome . 369. 370. 371. 373. Stubbernenesse . 46. 50. 590. Substance . 251. ●ubstance , by M. Hardinges Iudgement , signifieth Accidentes . 253. Succession . 127. Succession not sufficient . 132. Succession in Peters Chaire . 727. The Succession of Popes . 131. 132. Christe was able to shewe no succession . 128. The Pope hath his holinesse by Succession . 39. Certaintie of Succession . Ibidem . Summus Sacerdos . 526. 527. Superstitious choise of meates . 270. Superintendents . 597. Sursum corda , vsed in the time of the holy mysteries . 275. T. Temple . 328. Theophylacte answered . 239. He that entreth not by the woorde of God , is a Theefe . 102. The Popes tyrannie ouer Princes . 732. Tyrannie and crueltie in the Popes . 79 Freere Ticelles Proclamation . 34. Traditions . 195. Vaine Traditions fathered vpon the Apostles . 66. Tradition is the sense of the Scripture . 72. Traditions and Errours cutte of by Goddes woorde . 67. Traditions equal with Gods word . 195. Traditions vsed for the woorde of God . 196. 197. Traditions broken . 195. Tradition against the Scripture . 65. 66 Traditions abused . 66. Transubstantiation newe and doubtful . 237 238. Tridentine Councel referred al to the Pope . 634. Truthe deuoureth falsehed . 585. Truthe blinded with falsehed . 7. The Truthe stil a stranger . 9. Truth il entreated , & sclaundered , 4. 5 Truthe wil conquere . 284. Truthe preuaileth . 731. The sprite of Truthe in Annas and Caiphas . 621. V. Valentinian the Emperoure refused to heare Ecclesiastical causes . 667. Venial sinnes remitted other waies , then by the bloud of Christe . 151. The Pope changeth vice into vertue . 564. Vigilantius . 13. The Churche is the Popes Vineyard . 608. The perpetual virginitie of our Lady . 200. The vitious life of the Romaine Clergie . 358. I wil no more drinke of this frute of the Vine , expounded . 262. One vniuersal Bishop . 99. 122. Vniuersal power committed no more to Peter , then to Paule . 124. An Vniuersitie in Rome . 377. The Popes vauntinge of his vniuersal power . 125. Pope Gregorie refuseth the name of Vniuersal Bishop . 124. Reasons for the Vniuersalitie of the Pope . 100. 101. Vnitie , a token of the Truthe . 352. The Vniuersal Churche dependeth on the Pope . 452. The Vniuersal church maie faile . 450 Vnitie amonge the wicked . 352. The Vnitie of the Churche reasteth ( not in one Christe , but ) in one Pope . 100. 466. 467. Pride it selfe desireth Vnitie . 100. Ministers Vnlearned . 602. The Romaine clergie Vnlearned . 601. 602. A Vowe simple , or solemne . 499. Vowe annexed vnto holy orders . 171. Volusianus the Bishop of Carthage . 366 W. Water was not water , but bloud . 246 Watches . 13. Weemen changed into men . 380. Wicked men commended . 421. The Wicked eate not the Body of Christe . 210. 241. 273. 349. 586. The Wicked receiue the Body of Christe , in what sense . 210. Wilful stubbernenesse . 435. Witenberg . 391. A poore husbandman bringinge the Woorde of God , ought to be beleeued before Pope or Councel . 611. The Authoritie of Gods Woord . 194 Z. Zele , and griefe of minde against the enimies of God . 3. FINIS .
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