An inquirie and ansvver of Thomas VVhite his discoverie of Brovvnisme. By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A04541 of text S119435 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 14662). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 256 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 55 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A04541 STC 14662 ESTC S119435 99854642 99854642 20072 2240931270

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A04541) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 20072) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1314:03) An inquirie and ansvver of Thomas VVhite his discoverie of Brovvnisme. By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland Johnson, Francis, 1562-1618. White, Thomas, fl. 1605. Discoverie of Brownisme: or a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. [16], 92 p. G. Thorp?], [Amsterdam : 1606. Imprint from STC. In response to: White, Thomas. A discoverie of Brownisme: or a brief declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practiced and increased among the English company of the seperation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland. Reproduction of the original in the Bodleian Library. eng Brownists -- Early works to 1800. eebo An inquirie and ansvver of Thomas VVhite his discoverie of Brovvnisme. By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland. Johnson, Francis, 1606 110 49176 219 0 0 0 0 0 44.53 D The rate of 44.53 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2004-10 Assigned for keying and markup 2004-11 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-01 Sampled and proofread 2005-01 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-04 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

AN INQVIRIE AND ANSWER Of Thomas White his Discoverie of Brownisme .

By Francis Iohnson Pastor of the exiled English Church at Amsterdam in Holland .

Psal. 55.12.13.14 .

Suerly myne enemy did not defame me : for I could haue 〈◊〉 it : neither did mine adversarie exalt himself against me : for I would have hid me from him .

But it was thou ▪ O man , even my companion , my guide , & my 〈…〉 Which delighted in consulting together , and went into the house 〈…〉 companions .

1606.

TO THE CHRISTIAN READER , grace and peace from Christ our Lord & Saviour .

TWo sorts of adversaries , the Church still hath among men . The one , of such as be without : the other , of such as arise from within the Church it self . Both heavie enemies : but the latter , far the more grievous , many wayes . By both of them haue we ( as others before vs ) ben exercised , a long time , and in straunge maner . Yet in and against them all , hath the Lord by his power and of his mercy hitherto preserved vs , and I trust will so do vnto the end .

Of late hath risen vp one Thomas White , despitefully reviling vs , and wickedly blaspheming the Name and tabernacle of the Lord . A man , that was himself heretofore separated from the Church of England , holding the Prelacy Ministery worship and confusion thereof to be antichristian : Who also was a joyned member of a Church in the West parts of England professing the same faith with vs : And afterward coming over to Amsterdam , and desiring to be partaker of the Lords supper with vs , did in our publick meeting before vs all , with his owne mouth , testify his consent with vs in the same faith we professe : From which he is now revolted : and of which he is become a notable adversarie : setting himself tooth and nayle ( what he can ) against vs and our cause : and that both privately & publickly , as now himself hath manifested to the world .

So as in himself ( though it may seem straunge ) are found both the extremities , whereof he speaketh in his Preface , which bring no small annoyance to the Church of God , hypocrisie , and prophanenes . His hypocrisie , now layd open , in the particulars aforesaid , and many other knowen vnto vs concerning him . His prophanenes , plainly appearing , both in forsaking the truth of Christ ( as Esau sold his birthright for a messe of pottage ) and in oppugning it in this maner : Gen. 25.33.34 . Heb. 12.16 . which sheweth in him a despising , if not a despiting also of the trueth : as Esau contemned the birthright , when he had sold it .

And thus the instance , which he would falsely give in others , may fitly be observed in himself , for both the extremities aforesaid : As also that howsoever they seem to differ the one from the other , yet indeed they strengthen & harden each other , with a mutuall reciprocation , and proceed also the one from the other , howsoever for a while envy do cloak it self vnder the name of zeale &c. Which that it may yet the better appeare both in and from himself , I will here set down a letter of his , written while he held our cause , to a Minister of the Church of England : And ( to vse his owne wordes ) as Christ alleadged against the Pharisees , Whites Discov . pag. 4. the example of their owne children , that they might be their iudges : so will I against himself his own writing & dealing , that they ( as his children ) may be his judges . The letter is this which followeth , taken from his own originall copie .

A letter written by Thomas White , to Mr I. A. Minister at M. in Wiltshire . Ps. 7.9.59.2.140.5 .

Oh let the malice of the wicked come to an end , but guide thou the just . Deliver me from the wicked doers , and save me from the bloudy men . The proud have laid a snare for me , and spred a net with cords in my pathway , and set grennes for me . Selah .

Sir , the pillars of the kingdome of darknes haue ben especially three , ignorance , falsehood , and violence . How far your self have waded with others in these , in your late dealing against vs , by sermons conference & letters , let the sequele shew .

1. For the first , you in conference at W.W. would vndertake to prove the reading Ministery to be a true Ministery , Ignorance . though you refused to iustify your owne , and that by this argument . Whosoever preaches the Gospell is a true Minister , but the reading Minister preach the Gospell , Therefore a true Minister .

For answer to your argument , I denyed the first proposition , especially in that sence as you took preaching for any publishing of the Gospel , which you presently left without defence . But if the reading Ministery be a true Ministery , then is it the ordinance of God , and if it be the ordinance of God , then may not the Magistrate remove such a Ministery vnder any pretence without sinne . An ignorant Proctor , for an ignorant Ministery , an vnfit tyme for such a doctrine of desolation , to keep darknes still in the Land , when the Lord hath shaken his sword against it .

2. Your ignorance further appeares in the expounding of the parable you entreated on Math. 13.24.1 . In expounding ( field ) for the Church , when as , though there by ( kingdome of heaven ) be meant the Church , yet by ( field ) must be meant the world , for the kingdome of heaven is in the ( field ) except the Church should be in the Church , or our Saviours exposition were vntrue , verse 38. where field is expounded to be the world . 2. In that you would vndertake to expound a dark parable not by playne places of Scripture , but contrary to the tenour of the Scriptures , and ordinance of God both in Church & common wealth , for if by ( tares ) be meant open offenders , which may not be plucked vp , then may not open offenders be cast out in the Church , nor put to death by the Magistrate .

3. You said in conference that all that preached the Gospel , Act. 8.4 . had extraordinary gifts , which you went about thus to prove . Philip. Act. 8.5 . had extraordinary gifts , therefore all the rest had . Which argument you could not then nor ever will be able to prove , the very recitall of it is sufficient answer vnto it .

4. And your insufficiency was even confessed by * * Mr Sedg . to Mr Pow. one of your owne fellowes ( as I heard ) who when he heard that you were to preach on that parable , said that he marvelled that you would vndertake it being so vnfit : he would some more sufficient man would vndertake it : with many such words tending to the like effect .

Thus have you shewed your self not alone ignorant , & so acknowledged after a sort by some of your selves , but also are become an vpholder and pleader for darknes in others . But if your dealing had ben alone of ignorance your fault had not ben so great , but you have added falsehood & deceit therevnto , as may appeare :

1. In that you were not ashamed openly in the pulpit ( which you made the chaire of falsehood ) to teach that excommunication had no ground from the 18. of Math. contrary to the coherence , drift , circumstances , consequence of that scripture , Falsehood . & by conference also with other Scriptures : as shal be shewed if you will vndertake the defence of your own doctrine . In that scripture is shewed a power which Christ hath given to his Church , ver. 17.20 . for the removing out of their communion , ver. 17. such as remayne vnrepentant and obstinate in their sinnes , ver. 16.17 . and therefore excommunication . To what end should this doctrine tend , if not to bereave the Church of that power which Christ hath left for the sweeping of vncleannes out of the house of God . But this shall be further shewed , from whose breasts you suckt this poisoned milk , which now you give others to drinck : if you will not leave the doctrine to the wide world without defence .

2. In that you trussed vp another false doctrine on the same Scripture , that the party offender Mat. 18.17 . should be an heathen & publican only to the party first offended , not to the whole Church : When as the whol Church hath as much cause to be offended as the party that was first offended , yea & more cause than that party had at first to be offended , by reason of the continuance in his sinne , which the offender hath added to his former sinne . If you had vnderstood what had bene meant by ( trespasse , verse 15 ) you would not haue thus abused this Scripture : as may also be further shewed . In this point , one of your Ministers , Mr ●● . but of greater wisdome & discretion then your self hath signifyed his contrary iudgment to you thereon ( as I have heard ) as knowing I doubt not the falsehood and vanity of your assertion thereon . Yea I dare vndertake that many of your our owne Ministers of best reformed iudgments , will be ashamed of these black drops which falls from your lipps .

3. In that you published in like sort that though open offenders did communicate with true Christians , yet were they not defiled thereby , traducing Mr Iohns : 〈◊〉 affirming the contrary . And yet when you came to the triall of it in conference between you and my self , you said your meaning was of a true Christian in the sight of God , not of a true Christian in the sight of men , as he is a member of the visible Church , and that such a Christian could not sinne or be defiled with sinne in that he was regenerate or borne of God , which was never the question betweene vs , and so a true Christian did not sinn though he should commit Idolatry , Adultery , or the like , in that sence that you tooke sinning : Yea a true Christian might as much be defiled with sinne in communicating with open offenders , as by committing adultery , for any thing you have said in that conference , which is vnder your hand . This was your miserable shifting , I feare against the light of your conscience . Yet Mr Ies. a few dayes after , in a conference betweene Mr Pow. and himself at Mr Bayl. on the same question took it in an other sense , yea in that sence , as which you said you meant not , neither could I bring you vnto it , as may appeare in that conference . Such confusion of languages doth well become the builders of Babell .

4. For that in your letter to Mr St. S.W.W.N. dated the 20. of Ian : 1603. you would vndertake , though no other would assist you , yet your self , by word , or writing , or howsoever , against whomsoever , to iustify your Ministerie , doctrine , &c. and yet by word in conferring you refused to iustify your Ministery , when you were provoked therevnto : yea when I offred to prove it false in those particulars you mentioned , and to be separated from . I offred also to prove your doctrine false on the 18. of Mat. and 13. of Mat. but you refused . I desired that I might propose one argument concerning the question between vs , but you would deale no further , except you might put downe some proof further of that which we never doubted of : viz: that a true Christian in the sight of God did not sinne in the regenerate part as he was borne of God . Was this timorous & fearefull dealing answerable to your bombasted boastings , let others iudge . These be the doctrines of desolation which you do scatter : Let others now iudge what cause we haue to account you a false prophet , and they in miserable case that are led by such blind guides . Did you not tremble to wish in the pulpit that the Lord would stop your mouth if you spake not the truth . Your dealing hath confirmed vs , and bene a meanes ( through Gods goodnes ) to gaine others to the trueth we professe , and for your self remember seing you care not what you teach , nor how you take the name of God in vaine , that which is written , Ion. 2.8 . that they that wayt vpon lying vanities forsake their owne mercy .

3. And yet least the measure of your iniquity were not full already , Violence . you add violence & persecution to your former evill dealing . When you are not able to stand by the word you try whether you can suppresse vs by the sword . ¹ Your self would not suffer Mr Pow. to make answer to you at Slaughtens . fearing least your falsehood should be discovered thereby . ² Afterward Mr Ies. by letters intreated him not to make you answer publikly , that you might speak what you would without controlement . ³ And seing these meanes would not prevayle , your self to shew whose servant you are , with others went vp againe & againe as if much paynes had bene too little to procure a warrant to attach him , & Will. We. told Mr Pow. that Mr Aw . was the procurer of the warrant . Thus do you by falsehood & violence seek to vphold your ruinated kingdome , when truth & verity hath forsaken her . And you shew yourself in deed to be an Edomite , red with bloud , Ob. 1.10 . like the scarlet coloured beast , who hath a mouth like a Dragon . ⁴ Your associate Mr At. could tell me , that an other place was fitter for me , meaning the prison ▪ To whom I answered , that if I had the gift of dissembling which he had , to subscribe against my conscience as he did ( I told him then when & wher ) I might live longe enough , & inioy Achans wedge , as himself doth without abridgement of liberty . You of all others may be ashamed to dissemble thus with the Prelates , knowing how basely you have thought & spoke of them : ⁵ You Mr Aw. could call vs brethren , & afterward being vrged for your dissembling , you could expound your meaning that it was in respect of creation : and so Cayn , Ismaell ; & Antichrist , be your brethren too , yea & nearer of kin then so , by persecution too . ⁶ Your self could say not long since , that of all sects on some conditions you could soonest joyne to vs , as being nearest the truth : & yet a little after call vs rebells : but rebellion being a high degree of treason , your self if you conceale it 24. houres will incurr the danger thereof , looke you to it . ⁷ You promised by writing to put downe reasons to iustify your Ministerie , and doctrine betweene vs conferred of , but we thought before how slack we should find you in performance . At your next comming to Slaughtens . I pray you not to spend an houre and half in confuting vs in proving that we never denyed , as you did before , & not to contradict your self as Mr Ies. did , disproving his owne doctrine the same tyme that he repeated it . The doctrine was that whosoever was reputed to be a Minister & taught the doctrine in the foundation sound he was a true Minister , and yet in the same place at the same time he said that a non Resident was a thief and a robber . Now I hope he will confesse that a non resident is reputed by them to be a Minister and may teach the doctrine in the foundation sound , therefore a thief and a robber may be a true Pastor , ( or els he disproved his own doctrine ) which cannot be . With grief of heart I assure you I write these things , having bene sometimes perswaded that you had more conscience , and true knowledg of God then can be perceived in this dealing . Thus haue I given you a tast of your evill dealing , the Lord give you true remorse at the sight of your sinn , or els remember that which Mr Fox hath written of the terrible end of persecuters . If you haue any thing to say in answer , do not snatch here and there as your maner is , but directly and orderly iustify these doctrines which are laid to your charge as false . Thus as before , so still committing our cause to the iust iudge , I take my leave : this present the 25. of Mon. 2. 1603.

He that desireth your good from his heart . Tho. White .

This letter he wrote , as is aforesaid . Since which time , being here discovered and disappointed of his expectation , he hath with Demas embraced this present world , and left the trueth of Christ : & is become a sworne enemy thereof himself , and a pleader for like fruits of darknes in others . Will he now therfore behold himself in his owne glasse , and not forget what maner a one he is , but apply to himself his owne speaches , of the pillars of darkene● , of making the pulpit the chaire of falsehood , of abusing the Scripture , of black drops falling from his lips , of miserable shifting against the light of his cons●ience , of confusion of language and building vp Babel , of bombasted boastings , of doctrines of desolation , of false Prophets & blind guides , of wayting on lying vanities & forsaking his own mercy , of seeking to vphold the Beasts ruinated kingdome , of being an Edomite , of having a mouth like a Dragon , of the gift of dissembling , of enioying Achans wedge , of base thinking & speaking of the Prelates heretofore , of being now neare a kinne to Cain , Ismael , & Antichrist , of the terrible end of persecutors , of committing our cause to the iust Iudge , &c.

And how would he reply againe , if Mr A. to whom he wrote this letter , should now answer him by the words of his owne mouth out of his Libell against vs , & aske him , Are these things evill in others & good in him ? Or as the Poet speakes , Whites Discov . pag. 20. Iustum non iustum non iustum iustum quod vobis libet : Or will he say as Medea in Ovid , Video meliora proboque , deteriora sequor ? But rather will he heare the Apostle , Rom. 2.1.3 . What art thou that cōdēnest another , & doest the same ? Or the Prophet , Psal. 50.16 . Why takest thou my word in thy mouth , and hatest to be reformed ? Or Christ himself , Hypocrite first cast the beame out of thine owne ey , &c. Mat. 7.5 .

Or if he will heare none of these , yet let him remember & take to himself his owne allegation of Tullies words , Testimonium tuum quod in aliena re leve est , Whites Discov . pag. 6. hoc contra te grave , &c. Thine owne testimony , which in another case is of small weight , this against thy self is of great moment .

Now of his hatred & malice against vs & the truth ( since he left it ) what should I need to speak ? Himself hath proclaymed it to the world . And howsoever he would cloak & cover it with pretence of discharging his duty to God & his Churches , of care for others , of omitting many the vilest things , of offending chast eares , of sparing vs , &c. yet doth he therein but the more verify that saying of Salomon , Hatred may be covered by deceit : Pro. 26.26 . but the malice thereof shall be discovered in the congregation . Shemei himself , yea and Rabshakeh , could besides other things pretend even the name of God , when they rayled & cursed most bitterly . Wherein also what other thing hath he done in his invective against vs , but as the Iesuites and other Papists have often done against Luther , Calvine , Beza , &c. of whom they shame not to forge and publish notorious lyes & sclanders : and all to obscure the truth professed by them ? Whose steps how this enemie of ours hath followed , let others iudge . And let himself remember his owne saying heretofore , if he will regard no others , that a man who hath run away from his Maister , wil seldome give him a good report .

But thus is he the fitter servant for his Maisters the Prelates , by whose authority he pleaded here before the Magistrates that his book was printed : and vnder them belike hopeth to be sheltered in England , whither he hath now betaken himself : for what cause he knoweth best . But wheresoever and howsoever he bestow himself , let him know , God will find him out : from whom he cannot fly , nor escape his judgement . For as Enoch the seventh from Adam prophecyed , so is it in all ages to be remembred , Behold , the Lord commeth with his thousands of Saints , to do iudgement against all men , & to rebuke all the vngodly of them , of all the workes of vngod●ynes which they have vngodly committed , and of all the hard things which vngodly sinners have spoken against him . Iude , ver. 14.15 .

For which cuase , we could for our owne parts so have left him , & born in our bosome all his reproach , without giving any answer : had we not considered that by him not onely our selves but even the faith of Christ which we professe is traduced and oppugned ; and many that are weak might thus be kept or turned away from the truth ; and Salomon saith , He that is first in his owne cause , Prov. 18.17 . is iust , till his neighbour come and make inquiry of him . Therefore thought we it best at this time to make the answer ensuing . Wherein as now we have followed the counsell & rule of wisdome , which saith , Answer a foole according to his foolishnes , Pro. 26.5 . least he be wise in his owne eyes : so for hereafter ( vnles there be great & speciall occasion to the contrarie ) we may the better follow the other counsell and rule which Wisdome in the same place teacheth , saying , Answer not a foole according to his foolishnes , least thou also be like him : Prov. 26.4 . And specially for this man , who hath not delite in vnderstanding , Prov. 18.2 . but that his heart may be discovered : whom God hath already made a spectacle to others of heady , contentious , and hostile opposition against the faith and witnesses of Iesus .

Neither let him or any other of our enemies think their case the better , because of our sinnes or troubles or weak walking in the faith , whereon they do so much insist . Concerning which , my answer shall be with the words of the Prophet , Reioyce not against me , Micah . 7.8.9.10 . ô myne enemie : though I fall , I shall arise : when I sit in darknes , the Lord shall be a light vnto me . I will beare the wrath of the Lord , because I have sinned against him , vntill he plead my plea , & execute iudgement for me : he will bring me forth to the light , I shall see his righteousnes . And he will look vpon myne enemie , and cover her with shame , which said vnto me , Where is the Lord thy God ? Myne eyes shall looke vpon her , now shall she be troden downe as the myre in the streetes . And in this will we rest , and wayt vpon the Lord the God of our salvation : trusting in him , that notwithstanding our vnworthines and his chastising which we have deserved , yet he will look vpon vs in mercy , and make all things worke for good vnto vs in Christ : And that thus the vttermost opposition of all our enemies ( howsoever they set them selves against vs , whether against our cause or against our persons , against our faith or our walking in it ) shall turne to our good , & to the furtherance of the truth witnessed by vs : which we have much found that adversaries of all sorts have a long time and many wayes oppugned , as they yet daily do and cease not : though all in vaine . For great is the truth , and will prevaile : and greater is he that is with vs then they all that are against vs . To him be praise and glorie for ever and ever . Amen .

Esay 54 , 15.16.17 .

Behold , he shall gather together , but without me : whosoever shall gather himself in thee , against thee , shall fall .

Behold , I have created the smith that bloweth the coales in the fire , and him that bringeth forth an instrument for his work , and I haue created the stroyer to destroy .

But all the weapons that are made against thee , shall not prosper : and every tongue that shall rise against thee in iudgement , thou shalt condemne . This is the heritage of the Lords s●rvants , and their righteousnes is of m● ▪ saith the Lord .

AN INQVIRIE AND ANSWER Of Thomas White his Discovery of Brownisme , or ( as he calleth it also ) his declaration of some of the errors and abhominations daily practised & encreased among the English company of the separation remayning for the present at Amsterdam in Holland .

TO any that are exercised in the word of God , or know the nature and power of sinne in themselues , or the doctrine & pledges of remission of sinnes by Ch●ist in his Church , or the power & vse of excommunication for impenitent sinners , or the Churches duty vpon their repentance to receive them againe , etc. To any such ( I say ) it cannot seem strange , that in true Churches and Christians , sinnes & enormities , sundry and great , should fall out & be found . The condition of the Church of the Iewes before Christ , of the Primitive Churches after Christ , yea of the whole Church and people of God from the beginning of the world to this day , shew it plainly and certainly so to haue ben .

Which work of God so disposing , and case of his Churches and the members therof so being , howsoever many haue stumbled thereat & abused it to their own destruction & deceiving of others , yet thus would God preach vnto the world and have his own people learne and lay to hart other & better things thereby . As namely , how sinfull & miserable we are in our selves ; how subtilly and continually Sathan seeketh to devoure vs ; how fast we had need alway to hold faith in Christ , and to fight the good fight thereof against all enemies of our salvation and obedience ; how needfull it is to live in the Church of Christ vnder his conduct and government ; how carefull we had need be to make an end of our owne salvation with feare & trembling ; also how exceeding great the mercy of God is vnto vs in Christ his Sonne , by whom not only when we were enemies we were reconciled to God by his death , but being also reconciled are saved by his life ; and finally how infinite his power & wisedome is both in preserving his elect to salvation through the middest of so great corruption , and in bringing the wayes of the wicked vpon their own heads to their iust destruction : and all to the praise & glory of his Name .

These and the like good vses may & should we make of the foresaid condition of the Church here on earth . Neyther did we ever think or professe otherwise of our selves , but that we are sinfull & prone to evill in our selues aswell as others , obteyning salvation onely by Iesus Christ . Yet may not our or any weaknes of man praejudice the truth of God . So that admitting it were with vs as this Adversarie Thomas White hath written against vs , yet ought none therefore to be turned away from the truth professed by vs , but to make other vse thereof , for their own good , as we our selues also ought . But now if the things he obiecteth , be many of them notorious lyes , divers of them purposely perverted , few of them truely related , and all of them ( as all may see ) maliciously abused against vs : how iustly shall that returne vpon his own head , which he would in ●his manner bring vpon vs ? according as it is said , He that diggeth a pit shall fall therein , and he that roleth a stone , it shall return vpon him . His mischief shall returne vpon his owne head , and his iniury shall descend vpon his owne pate . Prov. 26.27 . Psal. 7.15.16 .

TO come to the Libell it self : he beginneth it with blasphemy , in the very title thereof , calling it A discovery of Brownisme . What our cause and testimony is , we haue long since published in the Confession of our faith : which this man knoweth well , & hath (a) (a) Wh. Discovery . pag. 5· in his book alledged the 17. Article thereof . If then he take our cause ( for which we are reviled vnder the name of Brownists ) to be errour , why did he not confute it ? If it be the truth , why doth he thus blaspheme it ? But so to be reproached , hath ben * * Act. 24.5 . & 28.22 . the case of the Apostles and Christians of old . And at this day are the Protestants thus dealt with by the Papists , who blaspheme the truth vnder the name of Zuinglianisme , Lutheranisme , Calvinisme , &c. And well it fitteth the Priests of England , that as they partake with the Papists in so many other things , they should also follow their steps in blaspheming the truth and witnesses thereof .

That which he annexeth , calling his book also A declaration of some of the erros and abhominations among vs , as it enlargeth the title of his Book , so it increaseth the wicke●nes of his sinne . For may not the Reader hereby gather , that he would perswade , eyther that we hold and haue many other errours & abhominations besides them that here he imputeth vnto vs , or that all our cause and testimony is nothing els but error and abhomination ? As also when he saith , the errors and abhominations be dayly practised & encreased : And that not onely in some particular persons , but even among the company of the separation , ( and as he speaketh in his Preface ) in that congregation wherein he would give his instance of prophanenes and hypocrisie . This congregation he nameth to be the English company of the separation remayning for the present at Amsterdam . Where the Reader is to know , that we who by some are termed Brownists ( of a mans name who heretofore witnessed this cause ) are by others called the company of the separation , because we do separate from the Prelacy , Pri●sthood , worship & Confusion of the Church of England as being Antichristian , & do also practise the ordinance of Christ which he hath given for the government ministery worship and order of his Church .

THis for the Title . Like therevnto is his Treatise also . Where for his generall accusations of debate , malice , adulteryes , cousonages , and other enormities , &c. this may serue in generall to be answered : 1. If he meane of some particular persons among vs , falling into such sinnes , it hath ben and is the case of all the Churches of Christ vpon earth , as may be seen in those of Corinth , Galatia , Ephesus , &c. And what need or vse els should there be of the rules & power given by Christ to his Church for casting out obstinate sinners , Mat. 18.15 17.18.22 . Luke 17.4 . 1 Cor. 5.1.4.5.11.12.13 . and receiving the rep●ntant in againe ? But if he meane of the body of the Church , as if we approved or reteyned such being convinced & vnrepentant , himself knoweth it is a malicious sclander , and his own objections ( afterward in his book ) of sundry persons whom for their sinnes and obstinacy therein we have cast out from among vs , may shew it also to others so to be . We are carefull ( he hath seen it himself ) that such be not reteyned or allowed among vs . And we find that even our carefulnes herein is abused against vs : because when any of vs are knowen to haue fallen into sinne and are dealt with according as the case requireth , whether they repent & so remayne in the Church , or whether they persist in their evill and so are cut of , it is still objected against vs , and we are published to abound with such sinnes & en●rmities . Thus might the best Churches that ever w●re in the world be traduced : as hereafter there is further occasion to shew in some particulars .

2. For our selues ( as I said before ) we confesse , and professe it also , that we are subiect to sinne and infirmity , as other men : looking for salvation , not by our own righteousnes which is of the Law , but onely by the righteousnes which is of God , through the faith of Christ . Yet , notwithstanding all the sinnes and vnworthynes of vs , let this still be held firme ( at least till we be soundly confuted ) that our cause is the truth of the Gospell of Christ , witnessed against the errors of the defection of Antichrist .

3. The accusations made against vs , are to be considered with their proofs : which will afterward come to be seen . In the meane time , let it be observed , whether if some would set themselues to collect particular instances of debate , malice , adulteries , cousonages , & such other like enormities , daily committed by many in the Church wherevnto this man is now revolted , though they wrote no vntrueths ( as he doth many ) but noted onely the truth of things as they are indeed , neyther took the space of thirteen or fourteen yeares ( as he hath done ) but of any one yeare among them , how might they fill , I will not say a few sheeds of paper , but even many volumes of books therewith ?

And if T. White were asked according to his own words here , whether he had not himself partaken with their abominations & vnfruitfull works of darknes : and whether he would give warning to others of their leaders evill dealing , whereby their people are devoured : would he not think you verify his own other sayings here , shewing himself to be far from repentance , seeking to cover , hide , cloake , reproach and revile , vsing falsehood , shiftings , contrarieties , etc. All which are knowen to be so true and comon both in himself and the Church whereto he is returned as I need not write thereof at all : their estate & dealing proclayme it to all that h●ue eares to heare and hearts to regard it .

Our banishment & poverty ( whereof he speaketh ) encreaseth his & their sinne against vs yet much the more . For are not they the persons that bring these afflictions vpon vs ? and is it not onely because we witnesse the truth of our Lord Iesus Christ , against the falsehood of Antichrist yet remayning among them , in the ministery worship order & government of their Church ? But let them know that he which judgeth iustly the sonnes of men , Esa. 16.4 . Psal. 103.6 will remember his banished , and execute justice and judgment to all that are oppressed . For the poore shall not alway be forgotten , nor the hope of the afflicted perish for ever . And in the meane tyme , Psal. 9.18 . even in the middest of all our afflictions , are we comforted in the Lord , for whose sake we endure them : & great benefit do we further reap by them , not only for our own good many other wayes , but in this in particular , that these our troubles are a speciall meanes to keep discover and remove from among vs a number of hypocrites , such as this T. White , who ( if it were not for our poverty and banishment ) would flock faster vnto vs and lurk longer among vs , vnder a painted colour of holynes , making show as if they would depart from iniquity & call vpon the Name of the Lord ( and who more then they ? ) when in deed their harts be fraight full of the leaven of hypocrisy contention maliciousnes and all maner of iniquity : which in such case and estate of things doth oftentimes both sooner and more appeare , then otherwise it may be ever would .

The calumniation of condemning all other Churches and men , we haue often answered and cleared heretofore , & this also knowen to himself . Yet thus he writeth , that in this as in the rest of his dealing all might see , how it is himself that runneth into fearfull extremities , and reproacheth with a virul●nt and venemous tounge . For our selves , besides our reverend estimation of other Churches and good perswasion of other men , so often published to the world , we haue also shewed it in our walking towards them , and namely in our dealing with the Dutch ●nd French Churches of this citie as with true Churches . Which had we not so esteemed of them , we neither could nor would so haue done and dealt with them , as we haue .

THe letter he speaketh of , I haue still with me . His falsehood and other bad dealing therein , I will here omit , save onely about the doctrines by him layd vpon vs .

1. The first is that we held it lawfull for a man to live with her that is not his wife , rather then to reveale himself . This he saith : but how doth he proue it so to be held by vs ? If malice had not possessed him , this error had never ben imputed to vs eyther as held by the Church or partaken in by the Elders . Sometimes in deed we haue had speach among vs of the vnlawfulnes ( as we were perswaded ) for man and wife to live together after adultery committed ; & about the band of wedlock being broken thereby ; & whether that in the case of adultery vnknowen to others , the offenders were to reveale themselves , or not . About which latter points when we shewed our judgment & reasons , this Tho. White ( who then was present ) did much vrge , that a man who knew such a crime by himself must reveale it , or els live in sinne , & with one that was not his lawfull wife . Wherevpon some of vs reasoned with him about it , holding that a man should not so reveale himself . The end was , that we differed in judgem●nt about these things , & having had speach of them but by occasion , so rested for the present . Will he now therefore make collections and frame positions of his owne or others spe●ch●s , and say ( as in his letter ) that they are false doctrines that ly vpon the Church , or ( as here in his Libell ) that they are blasphemous doctrines of the Church ? What good dealing this is , let the Reader judge . And concerning the question aforesaid , whereas some of vs were thus minded about it , that a man having committed adultery ( which is vnknowen to others ) is not bound by the word of God to reveale himself , but vnfeynedly to repent thereof : and that in such case he may notwithstanding lawfully continue with his wife : Although I be not here in particular to handle this point : yet I will now propound these few things to be considered about it . As namely , what Scriptures teach a man so to accuse ●imself ; whether it be not vnnaturall for a man so to do ; whether in Israell the woman spoken of Numb. 5.12.13 . were bound to reveale her adultery ( being vnknowen ) vntill or vnlesse her husband were moved with the spirit of ielousy , as the Law there is given ? And , whe●her ●●w ●en should of themselves reveale such their case to the Magistrates , who haue power to put them to death for it ? By what Law of God they are bound therevnto ? And whether els they cannot haue true rpentance but deny the prophecy of Christ & erre fundamentally , as here he would perswade ?

2. The second is , That there are qualities in God not essentiall , & that love in God is not of his being , but that the self same love that is in God , that is also in vs . Himself knoweth and hath bene here convinced of the notable falsehood hereof , yet shameth not thus to publish it against vs . And that now the Reader may know how the matter arose , I will briefly shew it . We haue in our Church * * Besides the Ministery of the word . the vse of the exercise of Prophecy spoken of in 1 Cor. 14. chap. Rom. 12.6 . 1 Thes. 5.20 . In which , some of the brethren such as for gifts are best able ( though not in office of Ministery ) deliver from some portion of Scripture , doctrine , exhortation , comfort ; sometimes two at a tyme , sometymes mo : Then also if there be occasion , vpon the Scripture treated of , are questions propounded and answers made accordingly : And the whole action moderated by some of the officers and Overseers of the Church . In this exercise , the first Epistle of Iohn being treated of , vpon these words , He that loveth not , knoweth not God : for God is love : the poynt aforesaid was by way of qu●stion spoken of . And about it there was reasoning by two or three of the brethren & this White himself , with obiections and answers diversly . Wherevpon this Doeg , by some of those br●threns reasoning & the * * Since altered , as himself knoweth . opinion of one of them about this matter , took the occasion thus to reproach vs : which first he did more privately , and now hath done it publikely to the world . Wherein his evill dealing is the more notorious , because himself being then present , knoweth how both at the same tyme b b And this also with consent of the Church then signified . the moderation thereof by one of the Elders was according to t●e truth , disproving the error aforsaid which he would impute vnto vs ; and afterward ( he carying himself verie yll about it & other things ) that the matter was againe heard & examined in the publick congregation , where to his face he was convinced to be a false accuser therein . Besides he knoweth the Confession of our faith long since published , which alone doth so fully cleare vs in it , as very shame of men , if no feare of God , might haue restrayned his lying lippes , and kept him from blaspheming vs with so black a mouth .

3. A third thing there was , ●nd that obiected by him publickly in the Church , and noted also in his letter , as a false doctrine lying vpon the Church : Namely , that when a matter is in the third place to be brought to the Church by the rule of Christ , Mat. 18.15.16.17 . our order being that the ●lders first have knowledg thereof given them by the parties themselues , then that the case being such as is to come to the Church , it be publickly propounded and handled by them , as in respect of their office apperteyneth vnto them , being the governors and overseers of the Church : This he blamed then as an error & false doctrine , contrary to Christs rule , Mat. 18. But here now he concealeth it . And good cause why . For when he was called vpon for his proof hereof in the publick Congregation where he had made the accusation : he was glad to answer , that he was not provided : And this also after a weeks respite to consider of it . Wherevpon he was rebuked as hasty to accuse and slow to prove , whereas wisedome would haue taught him , first to haue bene provided of proof before he had set himself to accuse as he did . But if now he think it to be no error in vs , and therefore speakes not of it , he might even by this haue learned to set a watch before his mouth , at least not to haue barked rgainst vs in so vile a maner as he hath done . Or if he still think that we erre therein , contrary to Christs rule , Mat. 18. ( as he obiected heretofore ) why hath he not here noted it downe with the other aforesaid ? Is it because that ordinance of Christ overthroweth the Prelacy and government of the Church of England ( whither he is now revolted ) it being such as they neyther do neyther can in their constitution obserue that rule at all ? But how then can he approue them for a true Church in such estate , and how will he answer the reason alledged by vs against them c c Answ. to Mr A. H. pag. 62. heretofore in this respect ? which is this ,

Every true visible Church of Christ hath Christs power spoken of Mat. 18 ▪ 17.18 . to cast out ●●●unate sinners from among them :

But the Ecclesiasticall assemblyes of England haue not the power of Christ there spoken of , to cast out obstinate sinners from among them :

Therefore the Ecclesiasticall assemblies of England cannot ( in their constitution ) be accounted true visible Churches of Christ .

And hitherto of his false & blasph●mous doctrines objected against vs in his letter . Which in his Libell he saith I promised to answer & performed it not . Yet in the letter it self he writeth that * * To I.L. in his own hearing . I said , I had spoken vnto him both privately & publickly , & now would not further haue to do with him . And concerning his letter , my answer was to this effect ( as I remember ) sent him by I.L. one of his own company , besides my speach vnto himself : That the contents of his letter were partly private , partly publick : that for the private , I required proof ; and for the publick , I would not deale privaely . Wishing also the said I.L. to deale with him for some reports ( ascribed to him in the letter ) concerning me which he denyed , and to end it between themselves who were of one company together : And as I should heare thereof , so I should consider what to do for the rest . This let him aske of I.L. his own companion : and let himself now look vnto it who it is that falsifyeth .

For not answering his letter by writing , I had good reason : as may appeare by that which before is alledged . And Wisdome teacheth , there be persons who are not to be answered according to their foolishnes , and times also when to speak and when to be silent : Pro. 26.4 . Eccles. 3.7 . with 2 King . 18.36 . The dumbe Ministers spoken of d d Answ. to Mr H. Ia. p. 17 4. in the place here cited by him , he hath now consorted himself withall , being returned to his old vomit , and become as dumbe as any of them for defending the truth against the aduersaries thereof : yet opening his mouth above all his fellowes in blaspheming the truth and witnesses of it . Wherein the case of the worst dumbe dog in England is ten thousand fold better then his : And happy it had ben for him , if his toung had cleaved to the roof of his mouth , and his hand never vsed pen , more then theirs : whereas now his sin is vnspeakably greater & his estate infinitely more miserable . But leaving him to the iudgment of God , I will proceed to the other particulars of his book : desiring the Reader , for all his pretence of due proof of his charges , to remember that saying of Salomon , He that is first in his own cause is iust : then cometh his neighbour , and maketh inquir● of him . Prov. 18.17 .

Of the first head of Th: White his Treatise .

THat which followeth in his Treatise , himself reduceth to fower heads . In which order I will also handle them . The first is , that he saith we haue betrayed our own cause in writing . And to prove it , he alledgeth that I erre in the description of a true visible Church , and thereby overthrow the mayn drift of my writings . I answer : 1. His reason followes not . For may not I or any other of vs erre in some thing ▪ & yet our generall cause not be betrayed ? Agayne , did not Nathan the Prophet erre about the building of the Temple , and Peter the Apostle about the Gentiles calling and comunion ? Could now an Edomite or Pharisee have iustly gathered , that they had therefore betrayed the cause of Israel or of the Christians witnessed by them against the adversaries ? To come nearer to our owne times , it is well knowen that Mr. Calvine , Luther , Beza , Fulk , Powell , Sutcliff , &c. writing against the Papists Anabaptists and the like , haue in sundrie things erred , even concerning the very pointes of the difference between them : Shall we say therefore that they have betrayed the cause handled between them and their aduersaries ? and overthrowen the mayne drift of their own writings ? Not to speak of the Martyrs put to death by the Papists , how both many of them , and in many things , have erred , even concerning the causes controverted in their tymes . Should we therefore conclude that they betrayed their own cause ? Or that they did not witnesse the truth notwithstanding faithfully even vnto death ?

2. Our cause towching the Church of England , is , that the estate thereof is such in their Prelacy , Priesthood , worship , confusion , &c. as it is not lawfull by the word of God for any to ioyne or continue with them in such estate : And moreover , that it is the duty of all Christians , to receive and keep the faith and ordinances of Christ , wherein the Primitive Churches were planted by the Apostles . To discusse and make these things more playne , I reduced our whole cause to seaven questions , and so propounded them : viz ,

1. Whether the Lord Iesus Christ have by his last testament given vnto and set in his Church sufficient ordinary Offices , with their Callings , Workes , & Maintenance , for the administration of his holy things , and for the sufficient ordinary instruction , guidance , and service of his Church to the end of the world , or no ?

2. Whether the Offices of Pastors , Teachers , Elders , , Deacons , and Helpers , be those Offices appointed by Christ in his Testament , as aforesaid . Or whether the present ecclesiasticall Offices of Archbishops , Lordbishops , Suffragans , Deanes , Prebendaries , Canons , Petticanons , Priests , Deacons , Archdeacons , Doctors of divinitie , Bachelers of divinity , Chapleins or housepriests , Commissaries , Officialls , Proctors , Apparitors , Parsons , Vicars , Curates , Vagrant or Mercenary preachers , Church-wardens , Sidemen , Clerkes , Sextins , and the rest now had in the Cathedrall and Parishionall assemblies , be those Offices appointed by Christ in his Testament as is aforesaid , or no ?

3. Whether the Calling and entrance into these Ecclesiasticall offices aforesaid , their Administration , and Maintenance now had and reteyned in England , be the manner of calling administration & maintenance which Christ hath appointed for the offices of his Church above named , or no ?

4. Whether every true visible Church of Christ be not a company of people called and separated out from the world & the false worship and wayes thereof by the word of God , & ioyned togeather in fellowship of the Gospell , by voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ ? And whether the Ecclesiasticall Assemblies of the Land be such , or no ?

5 Whether the Sacraments ( being seales of righteousnes which is by faith ) may be administred to any other but to the faithfull and their seed , or in any other ministery & manner then is appointed by Iesus Christ the Apostle and high Priest of our profession ? And whether they be not otherwise administred in the Cathedrall & parishionall Assemblies of England at this day ?

6. Whether the Book of Common prayer with the Feasts , Fasts , Holy dayes , stinted prayers , and Leiturgy prescribed therein , and vsed in these Assemblies , be the true worship of God commaunded in his word , or the devise and invention of man , for Gods worship and service .

7. Whether all people and Churches ( without exception ) be not bound in Religion , only to receive & submit vnto that Ministery , worship , and order , which Christ as Lord and King hath given and appointed to his Church ? Or whether any may receive or ioyne vnto another devised by man , for the service of God ? And consequently , whether they which ioine to the present ecclesiasticall Ministery , worship , and order of the Cathedrall and parishionall Assemblies , can be assured by the word of God that they ioyne to the former ordeined by Christ , and not to the latter devised by man , even the man of sinne , for the worship and service of God ?

Now reducing our cause to these heads , if it were so that I erred in one of them , is therefore our cause betrayed ? Or should my particular error , be imputed to the whole Church , or reputed the betraying of our generall cause ? Is there not difference to be put between erring through ignorance ( if this were an errour ) and betraying with knowledge ? Or if this maner of reasoning which he vseth might be admitted , who can deny but the Protestants of England , and of all sorts , have an hundred and an hundred tymes betrayed their own cause , and overthrowen the very drift of their owne writings ? And if they think it not of weight against them for their multitude of knowen errours , with what face can it be vrged against vs for one supposed errour ?

3. For the description it self which was given of a visible Church , I still hold it to be good . It was thus , A true visible Church of Christ is a company of faithfull people , by the word of God called out from the world and the false wayes thereof , gathered together in fellowship of the Gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ . This is the description : which he would proue to be false , partly by gathering my meaning thereof in other places of that & other books , partly and particularly by my judgment concerning the Israelites in Egypt , spoken of in the Ans. to M● Ia. pag. 47. Where before I answer him , let me advertise the Reader that if there be any weight in this exception , it was found out , not by Th. White ( as by his book might be supposed ) but by some of the Ministers in Wiltshire , specially by one Mr Io. Ie. and other his fellowes there , who have bestowed much labour in reading our writings , whether for love to the truth , or that they might finde somewhat thereby the more to cavill against it , let their walking and dealing shew . Whose disciple now this White is become , having heretofore stood as opposite against them , as white is to black . Now therfore to answer them all vnder one , I will write somewhat touching this matter : referring the further handling of it ( if there be need ) till some other adversaries , with whom we ha●● to deale concerning it and the other heads of our cause , give further occasion .

Two things ( as I said ) about this description are specially noted and vrged : the first about the meaning ; the other about my writing of the Israelites in Egypt . For the first , the meaning is plaine by the words themselues , and by the drift of that and all other of our boo●s , as may appeare not onely by the places here cited by him , but by many other compared together , and particularly by an expresse declaration annexed vnto it in our Apologie against the Oxf : Doct. pag. 36.44.45 . Yet now againe to explane and proue the truth of that description , I will here treat a litle more thereof .

To esteem and describe aright a true visible Church , we must look especially to two things , 1. the calling of Christ ; 2. the covenant and communion of the Church : To Christ his calling , like as the Apostles every where describe the Churches according to it : As namely , the Churches of Ephesus , Corinth , Rome &c. For which see these Scriptures , Rom. 1.5.6.7 . 1 Cor. 1.2.9.24 . Gal. 1.6 . & 5.8.13 . Ephe. 1.1 . with 4.1.4 . Col. 3.15 . 1 Thes. 2.12 . & 5.24 . 2 Thes. 1.11 . & 2.14 . Heb. 3.1 . 1 Pet. 1.15 . & 2.9.21 . 2 Pet. 1.1.3 . Iude , ver . 1. Now it cannot be denyed but Christs calling of his Churches & people , is vnto the whole faith of the Gospell & willing obedience thereof , & f●om all evill & iniquity that is any way repugnant therevnto , & therefore from the false worship & wayes of the world whatsoever they be or wheresoever . And herevpon did the Apostles reproue the Churches still when they fell into any sinne eyther against the first or second Table , as not walking worthy the holy calling whervnto they were called in Christ ; and required of them also obedience to all the commaundements & ordinances of Christ f●om tyme to tyme . Therefore should White and his teachers have better observed that clause of the description aforesaid , by the word of God called out etc. So might they have perceived ( if they had love to the truth ) both that the description is good ; and that the abberrations of true Chu●ches are so far from proving it any way false , as they do in deed approue the truth of it : in asmuch as the verie being of a Church by the calling of Christ requireth of them to walk otherwise .

Another thing that we are to look vnto , yet also depending vpon the former , is the Churches covenant and communion . This covenant is to be considered , as made by them vnto the Lord , and one with another , to walk together in the truth of the Gospell , in all the commaundements and ordinances of the Lord : And therefore to forsake and avoid whatsoever is there against . As may appeare by these Scriptures , Exod. 19.3 — 8. 2 King . 23.2.3 . Esa. 2.2.3 . & 14.1 . and 44.5 . Ier. 50.4.5 . Act. 2.41.42.47 . and 11.21.24 . Rom. 12.5 . 2 Cor. 9.13 . Ephes. 4.4.5.6 . Phil. 1.1.5 . Therefore also , the description aforesaid is good . And so might the adversaries haue perceived , if they had well observed that other clause therein , of being gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell &c.

And what els is it that giveth the being to a true visible Church , but the calling of Christ , & the Churches covenant according thervnto ? Wherevpon in a true Church may and ought these things following alway to be observed :

1. That it hath Christ alone for the Mediatour , that is , for the Prophet , Priest , and King thereof .

2. That it is to be accounted the spouse and body of Christ , the househould citie and kingdome of God , the ground and pillar o truth , a Church of Saints , &c.

3. That the promises and pledges of Gods covenant presence & blessing do appertayne vnto them in that estate .

4. That it apperteyneth to Christ , to remove his Candlestick & take away his kingdome from a Church when and as he pleaseth .

5. That every true visible Church hath authority and power from Christ to receive in members willingly professing the same faith with them , & to cast out obstinate offenders from among them .

6. That the want or transgression of Christs ordinances doth not simply or presently disanull them from being a true Church . For example , When a people are so called and covenanted as aforesaid , though yet they have none in office among them ( eyther Pastors , Teachers , Elders etc. ) they are notwithstanding a true visible Church . And by their calling and covenant they have power in Christ , as he giveth them fit men and meanes , to chuse and enjoy these , as any other of his ordinances . Likewise also , when any of the Church yea or the whole do transgresse , eyther in some thing which yet they have not seen , or whereinto now they are fallen , they are notwithstanding a true visible Church . And by their calling and covenant they have power in Christ to redresse them . Which when vpon knowledg they shall refuse , and ●o continue , then are they to be esteemed according as their case shall require .

So then , to judge rightly of a true Church , we must look ( as the Apostles did ) at their calling and communion in the Gospell . Which being observed , it wil be easy to put difference between the errours , and the constitution of true Churches : as Christ and his Apostles did , in the Churches of Asia , Achaia , Galatia , &c. to reprove them for the one , and yet to approue them as true Churches for the other . And this also vntill Christ himself remove his candlestick and take away his kingdome from among them : which is to be left vnto him , to do when & as it pleaseth him .

And this also might serue for answer to the exception drawen from my writing , concerning the Israelites in Egypt : who sinned with Idols , and yet were Gods people . But it being so vrged by divers as it is , I will note a few things more concerning it in particular . The objection is made thus , If they committed Idolatry with the Idols of Egypt , how were they then a company of faithfull people separated from all false wayes ? I answer , By the Lords former calling of them to the obedience of himself , who was by covenant the Lord their God , and they his people . Gen. 12. & 17. & 46. with Exod. 2.23.24.25 . & 3.7 8.15.16 . Numb. 20.16 . Deut. 26.7 . Which also is laid as the ground of the admonition , for calling of them from that Idolatry spoken of , Ezech. 20.7 . And may not a people so separated as aforesaid , fall into this sinne of Idolatry , aswell as into other sinnes ? See the case of Israel afterward againe , Exod. 32. Where Moses in his prayer to God , calleth Israell the Lords people , even then when they had committed such Idolatry , as the Lord would presently have consumed them for it . Exod. 32.1.10.11 . And of Israell againe , see what is recorded , Iudg. 2. &c. And likewise of the Church of Rome , which at first was a true Church separated from all false wayes , yet fell into this sinne , and continueth therein . Rom. 1.6.7.8 . & 16.19 . with Rev. ● . & 13. and 14. & 17. chap.

But this was the generall estate of the Israelites at that tyme . What then ? So may it fall out with a true Church : as now hath ben shewed : and so we are taught , Lev. 4.13.14 . Yet here also might be demaunded , whether he meane it to be so generall , as including all of Israel therein , specially considering what is written of some in those tymes , Ex. 1. & 2. & 6 . 20-27 . Numb. 1. with Heb. 11.23 . &c. And , whether this Idolatry were publike , or private , like as that spoken of , Ezech. 8 , 12. Zeph. 1.1.4.5 .

But howsoever , their sinne was also of obstinacy : for they were admonished from the Lord , & yet they rebelled against him , as the Scripture sheweth , Ezech. 20.7.8 . And even the same Scripture sheweth also , that for this cause they deserved themselves & God thought to haue powred out his indignation vpon them : but stayed it , in respect of his own Name ( which is called vpō*his Churches & people ) , & not because of their estate , as now it was , Ezec. 20.7.8.9 . And how doth this then overthrow , & not rather confirme , the des●ription aforesaid ? Or must we not alway desribe & esteem a Church by the condition thereof according to the revealed word of God : & yet leave vnto the Lord to esteem & deale therewith notwithstanding as in any respect seemeth good vnto himself ? Or when God saith , he is the Lord their God , and calleth them his sonne and first borne , whom he might in respect of their own estate cast of , can we not so esteem of them , but we must therevpon conclude , that in the description of a true visible Church , Idolatrie and all false wayes are not to be excluded ? or ( to speak of the questions controverted at this day ) that Rome , in all her Idolatries , is notwithstanding still to be reputed the spouse of Christ , and not to be rejected as an harlot ? and so likewise all the Churches that be her daughters in that estate ? Againe , what if it were ( as * * Tremell . and Iun. on Exod. 2.23 some think ) that Israell first rebelling , and so provoking God to wrath , as is aforesaid , did afterward through the affliction which by Pharaoh was encreased vpon them , turne into their own hart , and crie vnto the Lord God of their fathers ( as we read , Exod. 2. and 3. Numb. 20.16 . Deut. 26.7 . ) ? should we not then put difference between obstinacy still persisted in , & that which is afterward repented of & amended ? Not to speak of the Israelites estate in Egypt , how in their kindred and families the Church consisted and was governed , and how then they had not the word written ; ●eyther of their estate afterward in the wildernes , how God did never so punish them for any of their transgressions ( though of the same nature ) before his Law given vnto them , as he did after : as may be observed in the history : So teaching all ages succeeding , to take speciall heed to his written word , & according to it to esteem & walk in all things .

Wherefore to end this point , thus I think , that for Israel & all other people and Churches , we are bound alwayes so to esteem and walk , as by the word of God we have direction and warrant from him , and neyther to judge nor , walk otherwise : And as Christ giveth to all true Churches their being , so to leave vnto him to take it away when and as he pleaseth . And for this case of Israel in particular , let me further aske , whether such of the Israelites as should now have left that Idolatry spoken of , ought not also to have left communion therein with the rest so transgressing : and yet to have left them to the Lord to esteem and deale with them as in any respect should seem good vnto himself ?

For that which he objecteth next out of the Preface to the last answ. to Mr Ia. sect. 6. it is concerning Churches wilfully persisting in errour and disobedience of the trueth and voice of Christ ; and shewed by the example of the Churches of the Iewes 〈…〉 ●●●son objected about them by D.B. For which I refer the Reader to that Preface & section , together with that which is said in the answer to the 4. section of the same Preface : and more particularly , to that which I haue written about this poynt in the booke it self , pag. 161.195.196 . & in the answer to Mr A.H. pag. 61.62 . Where the Reader shall fynd what I haue written , and what my judgment is , concerning this matter : namely , that all good and lawfull meanes being first vsed towards true Churches fallen into sinne , if they amend not ▪ but wilfully persist therein the Lord hath threatned to remove the candlestick out of his place , and to take his kingdome from among the : requiring also of such as are willing to obey the truth & voice of Christ , now to save themselves from such a froward generation , & to walk in obedience of his faith & commaundements . Rev. 2.5 . Mat. 21.42.43 . Esa. 8.12 — 16. Act. 2.40.41.42 . & 13.46.51 . & 18.5.6 . & 19.8.9 . And according to this would I be vnderstood , wheresoever I speak concerning this argument .

For the Iewes in Egypt rebelling after admonition , besides the difference to be put between obstinacy persisted in , and that which is repented of ( which is thought to haue bene their estate ) I have here before shewed how we are to discerne , between their estate in respect of their owne desert , and the Lords mercy vnto them for his Name● sake notwithstanding . Which diversity of respect being now revealed vnto vs in the word of God concerning them , we are therin to rest , and so to speak and esteem of their estate as the Scriptures teach vs . Ezech. 20.7.8.9 . with Exod. 4.22 . and 3.10.18 . & 8 , 22. and 12. chap and 15.16 . Hos. 11.1 .

For the Iewes in Christs time and after his death , what I think and my reasons thereof , the Reader may find also in the Treatise aforesaid : both in the Preface , sect. 4. & 5. and in the book it self , pag. 161.195 . For that he objecteth here , about their estate after admonition , two things are to be obserued : the one concerning that people ; the other concerning their admonition . For the first , touching the people , God had chosen that nation out of all the nations of the earth to be his ; he had done great & wonderous things for them ; he had given them his word and statutes ; he had promised that of them and to them he would send the Messiah ; him they expected ; for refusall of him they were to be cut of , and the Gentiles to be graffed in ▪ many were the cities and Synagogues of them ; to to Ierusalem the males came but thrice a yeare , &c. And for the second , towching admonition , God would haue them fully taught admonished and convinced that the Messiah was now come , & that Iesus was he : therefore was Iohn Baptist appointed to shew him vnto them , and to baptise in his name ; therefore did Christ send his disciples into their cities to preach & testifie it vnto them ▪ therfore also did Christ himself every where among them teach & confirme it by his doctrine and miracles : and being the true Passeover shadowed out by all their types , was put to death at their feast of Passeover , & rose againe the third day acco●●ing ●o the sc●iptu●es ; to accomplish the promises made vnto the Fathers , and to leave ●he Iewes without all colour o● 〈…〉 ●●lief and obstinacy they should be cut off . These things and the like noted of them in the Scripture , are to be observed of vs , that we may aright esteem of their estate , and of the Lords account of them and dealing with them . Yea the Scriptures here cited by himself shew this very thing , how the Lord did not at first cut of that people , but after he had vsed sundry meanes vnto them , and that also many tymes . Luk. 7.30.31 , &c. Mat. 23.37.38 . And the same is playnely declared , Mar. 21.33 — 43. and throughout the history of the Evangelists and Actes of the Apostles .

Besides for admonition also obserue , how God requireth that a particular man for a private ●●nne be admonished in the 〈◊〉 second and third place , before he be cast out , Mat. 18.15.16.17 . And in rejecting an heretick , that it be done after the first and second admonition , Tit. 3.10 . Also in the Lord his owne dealing with the particular Churches of the Gentiles , that he gave them space to repent , after the admonitions given vnto them , before he would remoue the candlestick out of his place , Rev. 2.4.5.16.21 . & 3.3.16.18.20.22 . And what then should let , that we should not likewise obeserve Gods dealing with the Iewes at that tyme , and accordingly esteem of their estate ? Concerning whom , note also , when now they had despised all the former meanes and crucified Iesus , then the Apostles testifying vnto them that he was the Christ , did first at Ierusalem & after wheresoever they came and found the disobedient , teach all to separate and save themselves from such a froward generation . Act. 2.14 — 40. & 13.14 — 51. & 18.5.6 . & 19.8.9 . & 28.25.26.27 .

Thus haue I touching this point shewed my mynd : wherein if I erre , let it be shewed by the word of God . And though in some things I differ in judgment from Mr H Barrow ( that faithfull Martyr of Christ ) yet doth it not prejudice the truth testified by both of vs , against the Antichristian estate of the Church of England . This themselues may ob●erue in thei● owne writers against the Papists : in whom it were endles to recount the differences found among them , & frivolous to pretend thereby approbation of the Romish Church in their estate . We all here know but in part : 1 Cor. 1● . and who is he that erreth in nothing ? If then in this I were mistaken , haue I therfore betrayed our cause , or overthrowen the mayne drift of my writings ? Nay if this be all the errour in my writings that with all his searching he can fynd , I shall rather think our cause to be so approved and my drift atteyned therein , for the truth of Christ against the present estate of their Church , as they are not able eyther to defend themselues or convince vs by the word of God , and therefore now set themselues to search snatch and cavill at something for objection against vs . Which also if they fynd , and it be graunte● them , albeit our defence therein were the weaker , yet were theyr cause therefore never a whit the better .

To conclude this poynt , besides personall abuse of divers ( of which 〈…〉 where he hath it agayne ) he objecteth against me , that I condemne the Dutch and French Churches , for despising our admonition &c. But in what writing of ●●nne hath he found this , or in what words haue I spoken it to any , or in what dealing towards them haue I shewed it ? Where is the due proof of his charges , which ere while he told vs of ? How reverendly we think of these Churches , we haue often shewed and published heretofore ; which I need not here repeat . And what dealing hath passed between vs and the Elders of the Dutch and French Churches of this City , I shall haue occasion hereafter to shew more particularly : To which place I 〈◊〉 it ▪ Now onely let the Reader here consider how truely and fitly his shutting vp of this point may be applyed to himself : who heretofore hath held and witnessed the same testimony with vs against the Church of England , and corruptions of these Churches here : but now wavereth or rather in deed is revolted in both , as the world seeth , and his walking sheweth : He that wavereth in his owne testimony , ●ow shall his witnes ●e received ? But thus is that verifyed in him which the wise man speaketh , Pro. 12.13 . The ●vill man is snared by the wickednes of his own lippes .

Of the second head of Th● White his Treatise .

HItherto of the first ●ead of his 〈…〉 , ●hat he saith we cut of from being true Curches in our account , all the Churches of Christ that ever have ben since the Apostles dayes , or now are , y●● and our selues also , His proof of all this , he would fetch , partly from the description aforesaid , partly from a 〈◊〉 Treatise entituled , A true description out of the word of God , of the visible Church . His instances are three , 1. of the Chruches that haue ben since the Apostles dayes ; 2. of the Churches that now are ; 3. & of our selues . Touching which ( omitting that I haue answered before to his former exception , which may here agayn be remembred , though I repeat it not ) let the Reader now first obserue and marke it well , how he saith , the Churches that haue ben since the Apostles dayes , and not , the Churches that were in their dayes . Beli●● 〈…〉 that th● 〈…〉 said cutteth not them of : And if not them , then not any other at all . For that which made them to be true visible Churches , doth and must make all other so to be , to the end of the world , namely , the calling of Christ and their mutuall covenant and communion in his Gospell : as we haue shewed before out of the Scriptures . Wherevpon I reason thus :

If the description aforesaid cut not of the Primitive Churches planted by the Apostles , from being true visible Churches of Christ ; then doth it not cut of any other which since that tyme haue bene , are , or shal be to the end of the world :

But the former is true : Therefore the latter .

The Proposition is vndenyable , from the Scriptures and demonstration aforesaid . It is one and the same thing that giveth being to all true visible Churches of Chr●●t . That which gave being to the Churches of Ierusalem , Antioch , Rome &c. gaue also being to the Churches of Galatia , Corinth , Ephesus , &c. notwithstanding the corruptions they fell into . And that which then gave being to them , giveth being to all that haue ben since , or ever shal be . The Church is the body of Christ , and every one members for their part ; He is th● 〈◊〉 ●f the body , & from him doth all the life & power thereof p●oceed : He is not devided .

The Assumption is as certa●ne , 〈◊〉 will appear● , in that the Primitive Churches planted by the Apostles , were companies of faithfull people , by the word of God called out and separated from the world and the false wayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell , by a voluntary profession of the faith and obedience of Christ . This is proved by the Acts of the Apostles and their Epistles throughout . And if this man , or his Maisters of whome he learned to object against this description , do deny it ( as by their exceptions & reasons is implyed ) may not we justly returne vnto them , that which vnjustly they would impute vnto vs , and say , Are not they then the blasphemers of the Christians and their Churches ? Or is not this to robbe Christ of his honour ? Or may not that saying be verifyed of themselues , He that despiseth his neighbour is a foole . Pro. 11.12 .

But let vs come to his proof concerning the Churches spoken of by himself . Thus he concludeth it :

If no Church that hath bene since the Apostles dayes or now is that we read of ▪ be separate from all false wayes in their account ▪ then by this description and in tho● 〈…〉 Churches : But the former is true : Therefore the latter .

Answ. The whole Sillogisme fayleth , as he hath propounded it . In the Proposition or first 〈…〉 tha● which in the description is particularly specified and needfull alway to be observed ( namely , to be companies by the word of God called out from the world and false wayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell &c. Wherfore his Proposition is not so vndenyable as h● suppos●th from tha● description . And when these particulars which now he hath omitt●d be 〈…〉 to be implyed , yet then also by further following of ●he Assumption may there be occasion to obserue more concerning it . And for the Assuption it self or second part of the Reason , it must needs fayle in like maner , because of that omitted in the Proposition aforesaid . His reason therefore ( if he would haue reasoned soundly and to the purpose ) should haue bene framed thus :

If no Church that hath bene since the Apostles dayes or now is that we read of , be in their account , by the word of God called out and separated from the world and the false wayes thereof , gathered and ioyned together in fellowship of the Gospell , by voluntarie profession of the faith and obedience of Christ , then by his description and in their account must they be no true Churches : But the former is true : Therefore the latter .

Answ. 1. The very propounding of the Reason thus , sheweth the weaknes of it . 2. And what if we would not be drawen to speak of the Churches since , but onely of them that were in the Apostles dayes : keeping onely to the word of God and that which is recorded therein ? If they cannot by it or the example of those Churches disproue our testimony , what would it help them or hurt vs , if we answered them no further ? 3. Yet to answer this Reason notwithstanding , and to omit the Proposition , as is aforesaid : I requier proof of the Assumption , because all that he hath brought for confirmation of it , doth not yet proue it : as will appeare by discussing his allegations , concerning the Churches he speaketh of , 1. that were then ; 2. that now are ; 3. and our selues .

For the first , viz , the Churches heretofore since the Apostles dayes , all that he saith is that we account the very saying of the Lords Prayer as a prayer to be a false way , which was vsed from the Apostles age &c.

Ans. 1. Is this all he can alledge against vs concerning those Churches & tymes ? Others 〈…〉 would perswade they have it by 〈◊〉 also of those w●ite●s , that Archbishops , Primates , Metropolitans , Archdeacons , stinted formes of prayer , the vse of the signe of the crosse , and a number of such like things haue ben from the Apostles age . Should we therefore believe them herein ? And how cometh it that this Antiquarie hath never a word of all these for those tymes ? Is it that he thinketh we hold them not now for false wayes of governing the Church and worshipping the Lord ? Or is it not in deed because the Hypocrite would not yet be seen to speak for these , and would notwithstanding so diss●mble the matter , as yet may please all sorts that are against vs ?

2. To speake of that he alledgeth , admitting all he saith here to be true , yet is not the Assumption thereby proued . For in all true Churches , the calling of Christ and the Churches covenant to obey the Gospell bindes them from all errour and false wayes : notwithstanding that both the members and the whole body be subject to fall into them from tyme to tyme , while we live here on earth . If then this saying of the Lords prayer as a prayer be a false way of worshipping God , it was excluded by their calling and fellowship in the Gospell : howsoever they fell into the vse of it . If it be not a false way , then were it but our errour so to think , which we were also to corrrect , & the description notwithstanding still should stand good . Now what our judgement is concerning the right vse of that forme of prayer , together with our reasons out of the Scripture thereabout , we haue often shewed and published heretofore , in divers treatises , which till they be answered and refuted , I shall not need here to repeat them , or to insist any further vpon that matter . Onely thus much now , If the vsing of the Lords prayer as a prayer , be a part of the worship of God appointed by Christ , then did the Apostles in the planting of the Primitive Churches teach them so to vse it : For they were inioyned by Christ to teach whatsoever he commaunded them , and so they did : Mat. 28.20 . with Act. 2.42 . and 4.24 — 31. and 20.27 . 1 Cor. 11.23 . But that they taught to vse it thus , none can shew eyther in their Acts , or in their Epistles . And Tertullian saith , ( if they regard his testimony ) * * Lib. de Monogam . Scriptura negat quod non notat : The Scripture denyeth that which it noteth not . This man therefore and such as do so hold , that the Lords prayer is to be vsed as a prayer , are bound to shew by the Scriptures that the Apostles did teach the first Churches thus to vse it : vnles they would ( with the Papists ) argue the Scripture of imperfection , or the Apostles of vnfaithfulnes .

3. The distinction of faulty and false is here also to be observed . True Churches may be faulty in sundry things ( as those of Asia , Corinth &c. and yet not straightway therefore be false Churches . True Prophets may be faulty in divers things ( as Ieremiah , Ionah , &c. ) and yet they be no false Prophets . True worshippers of God may be faulty in their worship many wayes ( as may be seen in Corinth , Colosse , &c. ) and yet not therefore be false worshippers . By which examples also may appeare , both what difference is between false and faulty , and how needfull it is alwayes in these cases to be duly regarded .

4. His proof , that the Lords prayer was vsed as a Prayer from the Apostles age , is out of Tertullian whose words be these : Tertul. lib. de Orat. Quoniam Dominus prospector humanarum necessitatum seorsum post traditam orandi disciplinam , Petite inquit & accipietis , & sunt quae petantur pro circumstantia cuiusque , praemissa legitima & ordinaria oratione quasi fundamento , accidentium ius est desideriorum , ius est superstruendi extriusecus petitiones : Cum memoria tamen praeceptorum , ne quantum a praeceptis , tantum ab auribus Dei longè simus . Because the Lord that seeth mans necessities did apart after the doctrine of prayer delivered say , Ask & ye shall receive , and there be things to be asked according to the circumstance of every one , the lawfull and ordinary prayer being premised as a foundation , we may for the desires that fall out , we may from without it build therevpon our petitions , yet with remembrance of the things commaunded , least we be as far from the eares of the Lord as from his commaundements . Towching this testimony ( if it were a thing to be stood vpon in this case ) many things might be excepted . 1. Tertullian lived about 200 yeares after the Apostles dayes . 2. Many things were held lawfull & ordinarily vsed in his tyme , which were not at all in the Apostles dayes : As , prayer with cloakes put off , and hands washed ; signing with the crosse , and annoynting with oyle after Baptisme ; Godfathers and Godmothers ; mixing of water with wine in the Lords supper ; oblations for the dead ; Lenten fast ; holy water &c. 3. He also followed & was infected with divers errors , which 〈…〉 judgement , even in his owne tyme reproved and rejected : As , the Iewish errour of the Chiliastes , that the godly shall haue a pleasant life on earth , a thousand yeares before the end of the world : Also , that the Angels fell for lust of women ; That Noah , Abraham , and others of those tymes were righteous by the righteousnes of the Law of nature : Whither also may be referred his errors about Freewill , Satisfaction for sinnes , superstitious Fasts & heresies of Montanus , &c. Not to speak how from his exposition of the Lords Prayer ( even in this book here alledged ) the Papists would gather proof for their heresie of Transubstantiation , and the Lutherans of Consubstantiation . Againe , he disallowed sundry things , which were approued them by others according to the truth : As , the Baptisme of children , second mariages ; fleing in tyme of persecution &c. 4. But if they think there be such weight in Tertullians testimony , why do they then at their preaching vse the Lords prayer after their owne prayers , when as Tertullian saith it was first premised as a foundation wherevpon petitions from out of it might be built ? Which ( admitting the vse of it , yet ) sheweth a quite different vsing of it then , from that which now is had . And let it here be noted by the way , that Tertullian doth often in that book call it a forme & doctrine of prayer , and sheweth that Christ hath not tyed vs to the vse of those words , but thereon to build our petitions as vpon a foundation , according to the need & occasion of euery one , following his precepts . Why also do they not hear●en to Tertullian , when in the same book he saith , * * Tertull. Lib. de orat . Such things are iustly to be charged with vanity , as are done without authority of any precept eyther of the Lord or of the Apostles : And when other where he saith a a Lib. de praescript . aduersus haeret . The Apostles did faithfully deliver to the nations the discipline they received of Christ : And , b b Lib. de virgin . veland . that no continuance of times , or supportation of persons can preiudice the truth ? If they wil belieue Tertullian , their book of common prayer , their Prelacy , Priesthood , crosse , surplice , and the like reteyned among them , may justly be charged with vanity , as being never appoynted by the Lord or his Apostles . Neither can al their gloses perswade that ever they came from Christ , seing the Apostles did not deliver them to the nations , as appeareth by their writings . Nor is it material , whatsoever continuance of tymes they pretend , or supportation of persons they may have . None can preiudice the truth , as Tertullian sayth . And for the poynt in hand except they can shew that the Apostles did teach to vse the Lords prayer as a prayer , it is neither the continuance of tymes , nor the supportation of any persons , be they Old writers or Churches , that can be admitted for a sufficient warrant , even by Tertullians owne testimonie .

For the Churches that now are , we also refer it to our dealing with them . In our writings wee haue often signified our esteeming of them for true Churches : and in our walking towards them wee haue alwaies shewed it . And this more particularly , as we have had more special occasion , in our dealing with the Dutch & French Churches of this City . When some of their members haue left them , because of their corruptions , and come to joyne themselues vnto vs , we haue required such first to deale with them , as with true Churches alway should be done , namely , to advertise the Elders first , and then the whole body of the Church whereof they were ( if they might be suffered ) of the corruptions , for which they thought to leaue them . Which we require not of such as come vnto vs from any false Church . Also , when some of our Church have gone vnto them , and declined from the truth which they professed with vs , vnto their corruptions , we haue had dealing thereabout with the Elders both of the Dutch and French Churches of this towne , that were by the rest of their Elderships deputed therevnto , before we would proceed with the parties for this their revolt and transgression . And when the Dutch Church here received such to be members of them , as our Church excommunicated for their sinnes , we also admonished their Elders hereof , desiring that by themselves or by vs knowledg of these things might be given to the whole body of their Church . Which course of dealing we vse not with any false Church or the Ministers thereof . But to insert here in particular the dealing that hath passed between vs & them of this towne , Confess . with Mr Iun. letters pag. 54. would be to long : & their corruptions whereabout we have dealt with them , are already published . By which and this that hath here bene said , let the Reader judg , wheth●r we haue not cause to put difference between them & the other Churches of these countries not so dealt withal .

For not hearing of them in other of their Congregations in these countreys , this I answer : That seeing by the mercy of God we haue seen and forsaken the corruptions yet remayning in the publick ministration and condition of these Churches ( if they be al like to them of this city ) we therefore cannot partake with them in such case , without declining and apostasy from the truth which we haue our selues already received and professed . This also I speak of the members of our Church so walking and witnessing as is aforesaid , and not of the members of their owne Churches , whose duty I think it is , before they may leaue them for their corruptions , first to signify them vnto them , and by al good meanes to seek the redresse therof among them , as being members of the same body with them . Which I take also to be the duty of all such , as haue knowledge of their corruptions , and being not of them , yet would communicate with them in their publick administration . And this for true Churches . But as for any false , these are not the duties or rules prescribed for them , but other of a far differing nature , namely , when once we see their abhominations , to separate from them without delay , and to witnesse against them even vnto death . The further declaration whereof with confirmation from the Scriptures , the Reader may have in divers of our Treatises already published about our cause . As in the Refut of Mr. Giff. In the Answ. to Mr. A.H. pag. 61. &c.

But he provoketh me yet further , and saith , If he can , let him name any one Church on the face of the earth now , that holdeth not false waies , yea even in their constitution in their account . Although I might answer as before , that the calling of Christ and the Churches covenant to walk in the faith of his Gospell excludeth al false wayes in all true Churches ( whether as yet seen or vnseen ) and therfore in the Reformed Churches so acknowledged by vs : yet because he presseth me so earnestly to name but any one Church , on the face of the earth , I wil giue the instance , of that Church in the west parts of England whereof himself was a joyned member , when he separated from the Church of England , and held the same faith with them and vs , from which he is now apostate . And let him now name any false way holden by them in their constitution in our account .

Of the distinction to be observed between faulty & false worship , I haue spoken * * pag 23. here before . As also , of his blaspheming the Christians and their Churches , despising neighbours , and robbing Christ himself of his honour . And now by that which hath ben said , let the Reader obserue how true it is in himself , that after al his earnest endevour not alone to wound but even to kill others ( if he could ) he hath turned the poynt of his weapon into his owne bowels . Which will also yet further appeare in that which followeth , in his particular objection against the Church whereof we are our selues , which he saith is not agreable to our description aforesaid .

Against our selues , the proof he bringeth is this that he saith , we are not separate from al open offenders , and all false wayes : and to shew this , he produceth many particular persons and matters . I answer : admitting al he saith against vs both the generall and particulars were true , yet notwithstanding the description aforesaid should stand good , and our Church also agreable therevnto . For this yet should be the errour of our practise , not of our covenant or calling in Christ : According to which we are alway to esteem or Churches , as we haue ●hewed before . Otherwise to reason as this man doth against vs , were to condemne those Churches of Asia , Galatia , Corinth , and all that ever haue bene from the beginning to this day .

But to come to the particulars , his first allegation is , that he saith we reteyne among vs open offenders : and for instance the first he nameth is one Cast. noted publikly in our meeting for cousonage &c. A man that is of the Church of England , and so was a good while before this book of Whites was published . Sometyme in deed he lived among vs here , but after a while began to be so noted and dealt with , as fynding the Church to be no harbour for him ( but that he must walk better , or be cast out from among vs ) he returned to England , where he knew he might be reteyned in that Church , and where Th. White his fellow will ( no doubt ) brook him well ynough . But further he saith , the Elders here defended that he ought not to be publiklie dealt withall for it , because it was not orderly made publik . Indeed we hold , that private sins should privatly be dealt with , & if any bring in publick without private dealing going before ( according to the rule given by Christ , Math , 18.15.16 . ) we suffer it not , but rebuke them that so walk . Wherevpon this White himself being by one of the brethren reproved for so dealing with the party aforesaid , Mr R. Ia. it seemeth still to stick on his stomack : and the more , because afterward vpon speach thereof my self with the rest of the Elders signifyed our dislike of such disorderly and evill walking . Touching his repentance , such as were then present do testify that he shewed it for such things as could be proved against him , & in other things stood vpon his clearing . But whatsoever this White hath w●itten here against him , now that he is returned to the Church of England , whither himself also is revolted , the point of his weapon ( if there be any sharpnes in it ) is turned into his owne ▪ and that Churches bowels .

The same falleth out in his next instance about adultery . For that man also is declined to the Church of England , and there now liveth . Thus still is he snared in his owne wordes . But yet further see how he dealeth here in that which followeth . He saith , R.B. was publickly accused in our meeting , for creeping in at a window to come to bed to another mans wife . That this is false , is testified by such as were present at the meeting spoken of , & that he did not creep in at a window so to do , we heare is testifyed even by themselves from whom the speach of these things did first proceed .

Which being so , why or how should wee deale with him publickly thereabout ? And touching the man spoken of , it is well knowen that as he hath sinned , so he hath also repented : having therein before him the example of David in Israel . Where if White had lived , as he hath done among vs , would it not have bene counted horrible ( to vse his own word ) so to have dealt with them , as he hath dealt with vs ?

His next instance is of one of our Elders , Mr St. against whom he objecteth in particular three things ; The first , filthynes ; and of this ( to vtter his malice the more ) he speaketh fower tymes in a few leaves together , sometymes vnder the termes of filthynes with his wives daughter , sometymes of vncleannes , sometymes of incest . For which Mr. St. hath called him before the Magistrates here , for a sclaunderer , desiring that proof may be brought , or satisfaction made according to justice . The second is , supporting vncleannes in a woman a member of our Church . The woman he hath named * * Whites disco . p. 7. in the margent . before to be Iud. Hol. For which also she hath called him before the Magistrates of this ci●● where we live . The third is , refusing to pray with his own wif● a member likewise of the same Church . Towchi●g which he saith , h● is perswaded such cases may and do sometimes fall out between man and wife , as while ●he things so continew between them , they may lawfully absteyne from prayer the one with the other , vsing all good meanes within their own walles to be reconciled together , and to live so each with other as their prayers may not be interrupted : And that he hath not refused to pray with his wife , but in such case and maner . These are the particulars objected , after which a generall is annexed of worse cariage then this , often complayned of by his wife & committed by him , which the man saith he is ashamed to mention . But as he nameth not the thing so neither doth he mention the persons to whome she hath complayned thereof . And if there were not some other cause in it , who can think that he is ashamed to mention any thing , that hath a forehead to write and deale so shamefully as he hath done ?

Towching myne own knowledg and dealing about these things ( to speak of no other now ) this Th. Whites wife can testify what I did therin a good while since , whereof she hath particular knowledg , and which by this dealing of his I am now constrayned to publish . As I remenber , about some five yeares since , there came vnto me a brother of the Church yet living , and told me with great heavines how he heard that Mr St. had lyen with his wives daughter , A.P. and that the matter should be heard publikly in the Church . I told him , this was the first tyme I heard it , & inquired who it was that reported it to him : which he told me : Then I went my self & inquired from one to another of whom they had it , til by degrees it was brought to Rose Ph. ( now the wife of this Th. White ) to whom when I came , she did for some things which she had spoken name her authors of whom she heard them , but for this , could name none at all , but confess●d it was her owne addition : and then shewed great sorrow and repentance for her so doing . Now how she was rebuked for this her evill dealing at that tyme , I need not here to write : But leaving the Reader to lay this dealing of hers then , and this of her husbands now together , and accordingly to esteem thereof : I wil proceed to the next instances here alledged .

They are of Iud. Hol. Tho. Can. Ia. Ioh. &c. whome he mentioneth here by name to be open offenders , but sheweth not how or wherein . Of Iud. Hol. I wrote before , how she hath called him before the Magistrates hereabout . And so hath Iacob Ioh : a man that hath laid downe his life for the Name of Christ , being for his witnesse thereof condemned to death , At Northampton . and brought to the place of execution , & then reprived , & since ●ent away out of the Land as banished . And touching Tho: Ca. himself that here findeth fault for reteyning him as being an open offender , doth afterward in a postscript at ‡ ‡ Whites discov . pag 26. the end of his book , fynd fault with the casting of him out , as being a man penitent , and therefore not so to be dealt withall , but still to be reteyned , according to Christs rule , Mat. 18.22 . Luc. 17.4 . By his owne confession therefore , such as repent of their sinnes , are to be reteyned in the Church , and not now to be counted for open offenders . What meaneth he then thus to write of any persons repenting of their sinnes , as if while such were reteyned , the Church were not separate from open offenders ; or they vnfit members for the fellowship thereof .

But if all these things were as he saith , yet are they not in our constitution , and therefore not of weight against the description aforesaid . Which himself perceiving , attempteth therefore otherwise to prove that even in the constitution of our Church we hold false wayes . Where note by the way , how himself yeeldeth that the fo●mer evils which he hath objected , are not in our constitution . And as not they , so neyther any other . For ( as we haue said , and are constreyned often to repeat it ) the calling of Christ and our covenant , which is to obey the faith of the Gospell , excludeth all evill & false wayes whatsoever . Yet let vs consider the particulars which here he hath alledged

The first is , that he saith we hold the Lords prayer is not to be vsed as a prayer , contrary to Christs expresse commaundement , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . I answer , if it be Christs commaundement so to vse it , then did the Apostles to whom it was given , both so vse it themselves , and teach others likewise to do . Neyther of which can be shewed . Then ought we alwayes whensoever we pray , to vse this for our prayer , seing Christs expresse commaundement is , When ye pray , say , Our Father &c. And so the Apostles and Christians in all ages haue sinned , when they prayed and said it not . Yea and these men themselues do aboue all other transgresse herein , who pray many tymes without vsing of it , and yet think it to be Christs expresse commaundement , which is neyther against reason nor proportion of faith . Yet also when they shall haue considered , that it conteyneth all things , whatsoever from the beginning of the world to the end thereof haue bene or can be asked aright by any , it would be knowen with what reason or proportion of faith any particular person or Church can so vse it as they speak , without speciall explication and application of the severall heads to them selues and their present occasions .

Secondly , he saith our opinion is contrary to the tenour of the words , having the forme of a prayer in all things , as Our Father , give vs , and Amen annexed in the end , which shewes that they are petitions not positions or rules which are set down in an other forme , Mat. 7.7 . & 21.22 . 1 Ioh. 5.14 . Answ. If it be intended by the tenour of the words having the forme of a prayer , that it should be so vsed : then besides the answers already made , I ask , Whether we should vse it , as it is set downe by Mathew , or by Luke . For Luke doth not onely vary from Mathew in divers words , but also omitteth the whole Conclusion , yea and the word Amen , which is here alledged for a proof that it is so to be vsed as is aforesaid . But in deed other vse may be made ( then these men do ) of the propounding it thus by way of petitions rather then of positions or rules , as in other places is done : Namely , that Christ hereby would shew the right maner of praying vnto God , that we may with confidence come and speak vnto him in our prayers , propounding our requests holily , carefully , reverendly , without babling , according to our severall occasions &c. And so meeteth with the manifold errours that in the vse of prayer haue crept into the world : as may be seen among the Papists , Neutral-Protestants , Anabaptists , Adamians , Euchetians , and other hereticks Idolaters superstitious and ignorant people : some thinking that we should not our selues come directly to God in prayer , but vse the mediation of some Saints or Angels &c. others , that reading on a book is prayer to God , though it be of other mens words prescribed vnto vs ; others , that we should repeat the same things over againe and agayne ; others , that we should vse sighs without words ; others , that we should not pray vnto God at all , seing he knoweth what we need ; and others , that we should ever be praying , giving no place eyther to other exercises of religion , or to any labour of the hands , &c. All which and the like heresies , and abuses of the heavenly and most comfortable vse of prayer , Christ hath prevented and condemned by this his direction for prayer , propounded after the forme and maner aforesaid .

3. Thirdly , he saith our opinion is contrary to the vse of al Christians , that we read of , as before out of Tertullian and others may be alleadged . Answ. Then is it contrary to the vse of the Apostles and Primitive Churches of whom we read in the Scriptures . Which if any could shew , that alone would end the question : whereas the vse & testimony of any other persons Churches or ages cannot do it : As Tertullian himself sheweth when he saith , Contra Marcion . lib. 4. c. 5. That is truest which is first , that is first which is from the beginning , that is from the beginning which is from the Apostles . But now admitting his proofs were good , that the Lords prayer ( as it is called ) were to be vsed as a prayer , yet were it then further needfull to be knowen , whether it be Christs commaundement that we should vse it for our prayer alone by it self , or that we should ioyne it with other prayers conceived by our selues withall . If he say , we should vse it alone , his owne testimony out of Tertullian ( besides their own practise ) is against him , who saith , that it being premised as a foundation , Lib. de Orat . other petitions may be built there vpon . And if he say , we should ioyne it with the other prayers conceived by our selues , the practise and testimony of the Apostles is against him . For which see , Mat. 8.25 . Act. 1.24.25 . and 4.24 — 30. Phil. 1.3.4.9.10.11 . & 4.6 . 1 Thess. 5.17.18.19.23 .

2. The second thing is , that he saith we hold it not lawfull for the innocent parties , to reteyne the offender , as the wife her husband , or the husband his wife , if eyther partie haue committed adultery , no though the innocent party vpon the others repentance , forgiving the others sinne , be desirous still to live with the other party in the mariage covenant as before , but haue excommunicated the parties innocent for so doing . This in deed we haue held ( the most of vs ) heretofore : and some of vs are ‡ ‡ Yet resting with peace in their difference of iudgment therabout . so perswaded still . And while we were generally so mynded , we also held it our duty accordingly to walk , taking the innocent partie that reteyned such offenders , though vpon their repentance , yet to be defiled and to liue in sinne with them , as * * 1 Cor. 6.16 . coupling themselues with an harlot , But since vpon further consideration of this question , discussing it among our selves , when we could not fynde divorce in the Scriptures any where commaunded , but * * Mat. 19. permitted onely ; and that such offenders repenting thereof , are not to be reputed in that case of harlots , but to be † † 1 Cor. 6.9.11 . washed from their sinne & justifyed in Iesus Christ : we have vpon these and other like reasons altered our former judgement , and now haue thus observed and agreed thus concerning this matter , That where the Magistrates inflict not death vpon such offenders ( as by the law of God they should ) it is in the liberty and power of the innocent party , eyther for that crime to put away the offender , or vpon their repentance to reteyne them : But this with these cautions , 1. So as themselues were no meanes or cause of the others so transgressing . 2. That they be no nourishers of them in the like for tyme to come . 3. That this remission and acceptance of the offender by the innocent party be done before sufficient winesses . 4. That this also ( as the mariage at the first ) be alway in the Lord . And for the Churches & the Ministers dutie therein , that it is onely to teach and require of them repentance , after the example of Christ , Ioh. 8.10.11 . or els to see them cast out of the Church , according to the Apostles doctrine , 1 Cor. 5.11.12.13 . This is that which now the most of vs do think concerning this question : being notwithstanding ready to heare , if any can shew vs better from the word of God , which is the ground and rule of the constitution of our Church .

Touching the case and excommunication of H. C. and E. H. his wife ( of which he speaketh both here and afterward againe ) how will he prove the persons spoken of to be repentant , when as the one of them denyed the fact , which she had before confessed to two of the brethren ; & the other in the iudgment of the Church shewed himself vnrepentant many wayes , which I will not here mention . And if he do not shew them to haue repented , how hath he proved that for which he alledged them ? Besides that there were also other causes for which they were excommunicated .

As for that which he saith , divers of vs have accused themselues of adultery that so they might be ridde of their wives : this also he should have proved , and not onely haue said it . For we know that the persons whome he nameth ( W. H. and T. C. ) haue said and avouched earnestly , that they did it not to that end , but being perswaded that they ought not to continue with their wiues , having by their adulterie broken the bond of mariage between them . Besides , if by him or any it could be proved so to be as he saith , he knoweth we would not beare with such wickednes , but deale with them according to their demerit : howsoever without all shame he do thus abuse vs .

And here by the way let me a little note this mans crossing of himself , and bad dealing against vs still . Before in the beginning of his book , he imputed vnto vs abounding with adulteries , and that above others , as if it were a sinne common and borne withall among vs , and this also more then among others . Yet here now his objection against vs , about the case of adultery , is such , as any may see he thinketh we haue ben too severe therein , and that aboue others . What this our opinion was , is shewed before . Wherein although we have chaunged our iudgment , as is aforesaid : yet even this particular sheweth how greatly we haue alway detested that sinne , and how contrary this White is to himself , that he might by any meanes deale wretchedly against vs .

3. The third thing is , that he saith we haue altered many things which we held in our constitution , as among other , that it was not lawfull for Apostates to beare office . He saith , many things , yet nameth but one . Towching which I might answer , that although many of vs did in deed so take it , yet it was not here so generally received by all as he seemeth to suppose , because that as there was divers times occasion of question about it , there were of the brethren that shewed themselues to be diversely mynded : but at length the matter being often and much vrged , we did thus agree about it , That we think it not meet to chuse such into office as haue before tyme declyned from the truth , without good caution first had thereabout : As namely , 1. That there be consideration had both of the nature of the thing done , & of the quality of the person , & of the estate of the Church . 2. That the Church have good and due tryall of such being returned , afore they chuse them into office . 3. That with these cautions , the fittest be taken into office whom God giveth in the present estate of the Church . And all these things so mynded and observed of vs , as if at any time a better way be shewed out of the word of God , we be ready to receive it in the Lord . This is that whereof hitherto we have agreed about this matter : the particulars whereof there will be occasion to set downe more at large hereafter . But now admitting that the whole Church held it not lawfull for such to beare office , & afterward altered it ( as here he saith ) : yet was this alteration but of our judgement and practise , not of the Churches constitution , as I haue shewed before : and therefore his collection herevpon ( that we held false wayes in our constitution , & by consequent , then were no true Churches ) is both false & frivolous .

4. The fourth he propoundeth as a question , saying of vs , What would it profit them to b● free from false wayes in their constitution , ● their practise be not according to their profession ? But the question and point here treated on is , whether the description aforesaid be true , or not ; and whether we our selues be a true Church according vnto it ? If we erre in practise , is it therefore a false description , or we a false Church ? The Churches of Asia and Achaia erred greatly in their practise , were they not therefore true Churches according to the said description ?

But yet where the practise is not according to the profession , it makes the sinne the more grievous . True , and therefore Tho: White his sinne is vnspeakably grievous , as all they do know who haue seen what great and earnest profession of the truth he hath made heretofore , from which now he is grievously fallen .

But for our selues he asketh further , sith their knowledg is but in part aswell as their love , are not they aswell as others subiect to erre in constitution aswell as practise ? If he meane in judgment aswell as practise , we graunt it : and we haue alwayes professed it : howsoever he write against vs , as if we were such as professed perfection of knowledg and practise in this life : from which errour himself knoweth vs to be as far , as we know him to be from trueth and godlynes . But if he meane by our constitution , the way of God wherein we are set , the calling of Christ with the Churches covenant , which giveth being vnto the Church , then I answer , that difference must be put between the way of God it self , and our weak walking therein ; between the calling of Christ together with the covenant of the Church , & our sinning and transgressing in our owne wayes notwitstanding ; between the Church considered in Christ the head thereof , in whom we are washed from all our sinnes , guyded in in the way of truth , and preserved to eternall life , and between the Church considered in the members thereof , as we are in our selves every one sinfull and subject daily to erre both in judgment and practise : And this not onely in the members severally , but in all of vs ioyntly together . If this distinction be not observed , who can shew that ever there was or can be true Church vpon the earth , or how we can haue true comfort in this life to our selves , or esteem and discerne aright between things that differ , as we ought ? And if it be observed , any may see that all his exceptions against vs are of no moment . It is not our knowledg or practise , but our calling & covenant in Christ that secludeth in our constitution all false and evill wayes , whether as yet seen or not .

For which cause also I need not here stand vpon his needles and erroneous discourse about that which he calleth a shift , though in deed it be a point much to be respected , namely , ‡ ‡ Of this , I think my self haue had speach with this Th. White heretofore howsoever now he write as if he had never heard it of any of vs . that a true Church must be separate from all false wayes , which they see . For as I haue shewed alreadie , we ought if we will consider aright of a Church , to look at their calling and covenant in Christ , which is from all false wayes whatsoever , seen or vnseen , to the obedience of faith . Howsoever therefore we haue erred or may erre in judgment or practise ( as we and all men in this life are alway subiect to do ) yet doth it not therefore follow , eyther that the description aforesaid is not good , or that we are not a true Church notwithstanding .

Further towching our selues , we acknowledge & professe before all men , that divers things heretofore obserued among vs at the first , we have since altered and do from tyme to time alter and amend , as God giveth vs by his word to discerne better therein : Yea and herevnto are we bound and haue power in Christ even by the constitution of our Church . So free from all false wayes is the constitution it self , and yet we that are in it subiect to erre notwithstanding many wayes . So far are we also from the straunge opinion and impietie of them , that having in this latter age of the world disclaymed the Pop●s person and rec●iv●d some truthes of the Gospell , yet reteyning many abhominations of Antichrist withall , would now stand still , and admit of no further proceeding or alteration among them . As if they had at first seen & received the whole truth and all the ordinances of Christ . Or as if Antichrist should not now by degrees be discovered and consumed , as heretofore he rose vp and was exalted . 2 Thes. 2. Rev. 14. and 17. and 18. and 19. chap. with Ier. 51.25.26.45.46 .

And now by that which hath bene said let the Reader obserue , whether this fellow haue not entrapped himself and his mother Church , while he thought to haue ensnared vs . Neyther let any be so simple , as to give credit in the cause of religion to any , further or otherwise but as warrant and confirmation is brought out of the word of God , which is the ground and rule of all trueth ; nor to refuse that which is approved by it , for the aberration , opposition , or calumniation of any whosoever they be .

His abuse both here and other where in his book , of that which we haue published in print , I leave also to the Reader to observe , and for himself to answer to him that knoweth his heart . As for I. N. whom he nameth in particular more then others whom he would insinuate , for borrowing and making no conscience to pay againe : he hath called him before the Magistrates here , as others before mentioned : affirming & offring to shew how in the very particular alledged by White ( when he was here demaunded his proof ) for thus divulging him , he hath offred his creditour goods sufficient for his debt with overplus : and having had to deale with him for much , hath satisfyed all to a little , yet remayning : having also had hindrance by the sicknes and otherwise . And for the generall , we acknowledg that men ought to be carefull both how they borrow and how they pay againe , and should measure these , as all other affaires , with judgment and conscience , according to godlynes . Psal. 37.21 . and 112.5 . Rom. 13.8 . And we know also , that yet notwithstanding it is the case sometime of men fearing God , not onely to be but even to dy in debt : As we read of one of the sonnes of the Prophets ; 2 King . 4.1 .

But all this which hitherto he hath said , being not ynough , eyther for the vent of his owne rancour and malice against vs , or to please our adversaries whose favour he would purchase by traducing of vs : he now further pretendeth to frame an opposition between our practise , & the Treatise entituled , A true description out of the word of God , of the visible Church : thus setting himself to seek and abuse against vs whatsoever he can out of any of our writings . To shew his wicked dealing herein as it is , would require to insist vpon the particulars of that description , and to compare therewith the estate and walking of our Church : & that would aske a long treatise , which here I purpose not . It shall suffice , that the Reader , especially such as haue knowledg of our Church which he blameth , and of the Church of England to which he is returned , do compare them both with that description : and accordingly esteem of both as he shall fynd the estate of them to be in deed and in truth . Thereby also will plainely appeare , how this adversarie neither writeth nor walketh in the feare of God : to whom notwithstanding he must giue account of al these things . And for the particulars he mentioneth , that the equitie of our cause and iniquitie of his dealing may better appeare , I will in the treating of them first set down the words of that description from whence he would draw his opposition , and then speak of the particulars themselues .

And first , for the body of the Church considered in her parts ( as here he would seem to except against vs from one to another , through the severall parts of this body ) thus it is set downe in that description of a true Church , A true descript. of a visible Church . Pag. 2. Suerly if this Church be considered in her parts , it shall appeare most beautifull , yea most wonderfull , and even ravishing the senses to conceive , much more to behold , what then to enioy so blessed a communion . For behold her King and Lord is the King of peace , and Lord himself of all glorie . She enioyeth most holy and heavenly lawes , most faithfull & vigilant Pastours , most sincere & pure Teachers , most carefull and vpright Governours , most diligent and trustie Deacons , most loving and sober Relievers , and a most humble , meek , obedient , faithfull , & loving people , every stone living elect and precious , every stone hath his beautie , his burden , and his order . All bound to edify one another , exhort , reproue , & comfort one another lovingly as to their owne members , faithfully as in the eyes of God . Thus it standeth in that description . Towching which now I would aske , 1. Whether he hold this description herein to be true and agreable to the word of God . 2. Whether he dare deny Iesus Christ to be the King and Lord of our Church . 3. Whether he acknowledg him onely to be the King & Lord of every true visible Church vpon the earth . 4. Whether these be the Offices and functions which he as Lord and King hath appointed to his Church , namely , Pastors , Teachers , Elders , Deacons , Relievers . 5. Whether these be had in the Church of England to which he is now gone , and in whom they are there to be found . 6. Whether the Church Officers there be so qualified , as here is set downe . 7. Finally , whether if any would compare the estate of that Church , in the body , officers , members , lawes , and walking thereof , with the description of a true visible Church out of the word of God , he might not make another maner treatise and other maner of obiections against them , then this Priest of theirs doth against vs .

But to proceed , for the Pastor ( with which office he beginneth first ) thus are his qualities and duties set down in that description of a true Church , Pag. 3. Their Pastour must be apt to teach , no yong Sch●ler , able to divide the word aright , holding fast that faithfull word according to doctrin● , that he may also be able to exhort , rebuke , improve , with who●some doctrine , & to convince them that say against it : He must be a man that loveth goodnes : he must be wise , righteous , holy , temperate : he must be of life vn●eproveable , as Gods Steward : he must be generally well reported of , and one that ruleth his owne houshold vnder obedience with all honestie : he must be modest , humble , meek , gentle , & loving : he must be a man of great pacience , compassion , labour and diligence : he must alway be careful and watchfull over the flock whereof the Lord hath made him overseer , with all willingnes and chearfulnes , not holding his office in respect of persons , but doing his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chief Shepheard , &c. And afterward , pag. 4. The Pastours office is , to feed the sheep of Christ in green and wholsome pastures of his word , and lead them to the still waters , even to the pure fountaine and river of life . He must guide and keep those sheep by that heavenly sheephook and pastorall staffe of the word , thereby drawing them to him , thereby looking into their soules , even into their most secret thoughts : Thereby discerning their diseases , and thereby curing them : applying to every disease a fit and convenient medicine , & according to the qualitie and danger of the disease , give warning to the Church , that they may orderly proceed to excommunication . Further , he must by this his sheephook watch over and defend his flock from raven●us beasts and the Wolfe , and take the little foxes , &c. Thus far that description . Now among these qualities and duties he excepteth onely about two : the one concerning pacience , the other love and compassion : Which also are such , as it is fitter for the Church & people with whom I have lived , to speak therein then my self . Neither will I set to excuse my self , knowing how subiect I am to fall into infi●mity , and to fayle in duty otherwise then I ought or would .

1. Therefore towching the former , which is of impaciency , I will not stand to speak what I could , about the persons whom he nameth in particular , the dealing then vsed , the Discourse now written , the other witnesses vnmentioned , and the like : Neyther to alledg , how deserved reproof and severity is oftentimes accounted too much sharpnes and impaciencie ; and that anger sometymes is both needfull and lawfull &c. But omitting these things , I will for my self answer this , that I am a man subject to like passions as others be . And if Moses that man of God and * * Num. 12.3 . meekest of all men on the earth , yet had this spirit so vexed , as he spake vnadvisedly with his lippes : Ps. 106.33 . what am I that I should not much more so think and acknowledg of my self , who am so privie to my owne weaknes , as I am ?

2. And for the second thing , which is concer●ing love and compassion , why should I think otherwise but that I may sometimes fayl therein ? Yet this man for it of all other might haue laid his hand on his mouth , to whom ( when at fi●st he came a straunger & poore into these countreyes ) I gave meat and drink and lodging about nine or ten weekes together , till he returned againe into England .

Towching my Father ( of whom he speaketh in particular ) I do and will alway acknowledg that I was so bound to him both by nature and for his care and charge of my bringing vp , as I never did or could do ynough to shew my self sufficiently thankful . And what then should I do speaking of any thing I haue done by any meanes that way ? And in particular for the tyme when he was here , what I did & offered him to do , at his comming hither , remayning here , and going from hence , with other particulars that might be noted , I will not here speak neyther , what my self could if it were anothers case , or what divers others know and could testify if it were needfull . Neither wil I stand to shew what I could towching the pretence which he maketh about his being here in necessity .

Of M. Sl. his abuse of me and maner of dealing at the time here intended , I will forbeare also to speak what he knoweth I might . If he at that tyme spake hereof ( as here is affirmed ) why might I not passe by it with silence , as I did at the same tyme a multitude of his raylings & contumelies , as White himself & the many witnesses then present did see and can testifie , if they will ? When Shemei rayled on David , and Rabshakeh on Israel , David held his peace , and Hezekiahs people answered not a word . 2 Sam , 16.5 — 13. 2 King . 18.36 . Yet now I thought good to speak and write thus much considering there is a tyme to speak , as there is a tyme to keep silence . Eccles. 3.7 . Pro. 26.4 5.

But to leave these men , that which I will here speake further is this only , that it is needfull for all in all things carefully to observe and follow the rules prescribed by Christ , Deut. 5.32 1 Tim. 5.21 . Mat. 10.37 . not declining to the right hand or to the left ; not preferring one to another ; not yeelding to our owne affections & desires , but submitting them alway to the will and loue of God . As we read , that Levi was commended of Moses and blessed of God , for not respecting father , mother , brethren , or children , but preferring before them the keeping of the word and covenant of the Lord : Deu. 33.8.9 . And it is noted in the description aforesaid , among the Pastors duties there mentioned , that he hold not his office in respect of persons , but do his duty to every soule , as he will answer before the chief Shepheard . In the performance whereof also the Pastor and other Elders and governou●s of the Church are to be accounted and regarded as Fathers . But I will no further insist herevpon : neyther speak I these things to excuse my self in any thing I have done or omitted otherwise then I should . I acknowledg my sinnes are many and my infirmities great : and my strength and salvation is onely in the Lord Iesus : For whose sake I have ( through his mercie ) suffred much rebuke , and I trust shall patiently beare it to the end .

Next he cometh to speak of the Teacher , whose qualities and duties are thus set downe in the description aforesaid , Pag. 3. Their Doctor or Teacher must be a man apt to teach , able to divide the word of God aright , and to deliver sound and wholsome doctrine from the same , still building vpon that sound groundwork , he must be mighty in the Scriptures , able to convince the gainsayers , and carefull to deliver his doctrine pure , sound and plaine , not with curiositie or affectation , but so that he may edifie the most simple , approving it to every mans conscience : he must be of life vnreproveable , one that can governe his owne houshold , he must be of maners sober , temperate , modest , gentle and loving , &c. And afterward , Pag. 5. His speciall care must be to build vpon that only true ground-work , golde , silver , and pretious stones , that his work may endure the triall of the fyer , and by the light of the same fire , reveale the Tymber , Hay , & Stubble of false Teachers : He must take diligent heed to keep the Church from errours . And further he must deliver his doctrine so plainly , simplie , & purely , that the Church may increase with the increasing of God , and grow vp vnto him which is the head , Christ Iesus . Hitherto is that description : wherein the qualities and duties set downe , be many and great .

1. Yet cannot this Adversarie satisfy himself with them all as he would : and therefore coming to make exceptions against the Teacher , he fetcheth his first , out of the generall description of the Church spoken of before , objecting that the Teacher is sleyned with hypocrisie : and to proue it he alledgeth his dealing concerning G. I. M. Sl. Yet sheweth it not so much as in any one particular : thinking belike that some are so simple in themselues or so set against vs , as they will take his word for proof sufficient , who ●eyther knoweth that dealing himself , & in the things which he knoweth can ly so notoriously , as if he had the art of lying and would be a teacher thereof vnto others .

2. The second thing he objecteth , is apostasie : because that many yeares since having received this cause he did sometimes yeeld to heare the Ministery of the Church of England . But synce that tyme hath so approved himself among vs , both in the witnesse of the trueth & in the service of the Church , as hath ben for the great help and comfort of vs all , and my self in particular bound to testify concerning him , as Paul did of Marcus Barnabas sisters sonne , that that he hath ben my workfellow vnto the kingdome of God , which hath ben to my consolation . Col. 4.10.11 . For the question it self and our account of Apostasie , I shall write more particularly hereafter .

3. The third thing is , that he saith he hath ben a meanes to bring in and defend false doctrines . But what be they ? First , The latter of those two before mentioned . Now that latter was about apostasie in the matter aforesaid . So as then himself accounteth them to be apostates , that having held our cause do afterward yeeld to heare the Ministery of the Church of England ; and that it is a false doctrine , that any such may afterward beare office in the Church . And what then is this Whites own case , who being a Minister of the Church of England , left both that Church and Ministery , and received our cause , and witnessed the trueth against them , and yet now hath yeelded not onely to heare but even to execute himself the Ministerie of that Church againe ?

But he will say , that among the Errata ( at the end of his book ) he noted this for one , that for the word ( latter ) we should here read , former . I have obserued it : and well in deed might he note it among his Errata , who even while he would blame others of errour , doth so straungely erre himself as to put latter for former , one contrarie for another . But this might be an oversight ( as often falleth out in printing ) which therefore I would not haue noted , but that I think there is a worse thing in it : namely , that at first he both wrote and meant it of the latter , which is about apostasie , vntill he had himself apostate from the t●ueth and executed agayne his Ministery received from the Prelates in England : and therevpon now would alter it , measuring the doctrines of religion , not by the word of God , but as may best serue his own turne . And I am perswaded the rather thus to think for these reasons : 1 because when he began to set himself to be an enemie of this Church and could not prevaile as he desired , he then began to make question about apostasie , whether any such might beare office in the Church : 2. If we vnderstand it here of the former , as his Errata now would haue it read , it is nothing to the purpose at all : seing there is in it no speach of any points of doctrine , but of hypocrisie ; and seing an hypocrite may notwithstanding teach true doctrine . For els it would follow , that neither Iudas nor White himself did heretofore teach true doctrine when they preached , because Iudas was and he is an hypocrite , both of them through hypocrisie betraying Christ into the hands of his enemies .

His other proof of false doctrines which he pretendeth is set down after his woonted manner , others that may be alledged : yet not naming any , which no doubt he would have done if he could , or if he durst adventure the triall of them with the Teacher of our Church whom he thus envieth and abuseth , who notwithstanding for his learning , wisdome , and godlynes , as also for his faithfull teaching of the Church and vpright walking toward all , is so well knowen & approued , as neither he nor we need regard any adversaries malice & opposition against him .

After this he commeth from the teaching to the ruling Elders , whose properties and duties are thus noted in the description abovesaid , Pag. 4. Their Elders must be of wisedome and iudgment , endued with the Spirit of God , able to discerne between cause and cause , between plea and plea , and accordingly to prevent and redresse evils , alwayes vigilant & intending to see the statutes , ordinances , and lawes of God kept in the Church , and that not onely by the people in obedience , but to see the Officers do their duties . These men must be of life likewise vnreproveable , governing their own families orderly , they must be also of maners sober , gentle , modest , loving , temperate , &c. And afterward againe , pag. 5. Their especiall care must be , to see the ordinaunces of God truely taught & practised , aswell by the Officers in doing their dutie vprightly , as to see that the people obey willingly and readily . It is their dutie to see the Congregation holily and quietly ordered , and no way disturbed , by the contentio●s and disobedient , froward and obstinate : not taking away the libertie of the least , but vpholding the right of all , wiselie iudging of times and circumstances . They must be ready assistaunts to the Pastour and Teachers , helping to beare their burden , but not intruding into their office . Thus is the description . Now towching our Elders , he taketh here his exception against two of them . The first is , Mr Da. St. against whom it may be he is the more eagerly caryed , because he discerned so quickly into him , being a notable white hypocrite , and dealt so plainly & roundly with him as he did : And therefore also exc●pteth not a word against him , for his ability to discerne into persons and causes and to deale with them accordingly , nor for sundrie other of the properties and duties here required , though they be many and waighty . Yet some things he speaketh of , which he had twise before , besides that which he hath also hereafter : so as I need not repeat and speak of them , as he doth againe and againe . Yet somewhat more I will note here touching the particulars excepted out of the description .

1. The first is , of being indued with the Spirit of God : Of which we haue seen many and great testimonies in Mr St. from tyme to tyme . He hath bene an auncient disciple of Christ in the faith of the Gospell this many yeares ; He hath given vp his life for the name of the Lord , being adjudged to death , & so remayning many yeares vnder the sentence and dayly expectation thereof , till he was banished ; He now liveth still an exile for the same truth of Christ ; And in the governement of the Church hath had to deale with so many causes , persons , and dispositions ( yea oppositions also of sundry people ) as if he had not bene indued with the spirit of God , & that in great measure , he had never bene able so to have endured & waded through them all , as he hath done . Which also may both strengthen himself still in the Lord , & stop the mouth of all his adversaries . And for this Th. White himself , let it here be considered : 1. Whether he be fit to beare any office at all , yea or to be so much as a member in the Church of God , if he be tried but by this one particular , of being indued with the Spirit of God . 2 With what spirit he hath written this book of his . 3. Whether he haue not therein many times and sundry wayes blasphemed the holy spirit of God . For which he shall answer to the Lord .

2. The second thing is , that he saith he would defend the transgressing of the lawes of God in himself and others . Note , that he saith not he hath done it , but that he would do it . And how shewes he this ? Not so much as by pretence of any one particular for proof thereof , Yet this is the man that would perswade his Reader he could make due proof of any thing he layeth to our charge .

3. The third thing is , about the governing of his house : for which he referreth to that he hath els where cited , and so do I to that which is there said . Yet let himself take this withall , that if the things be true which are reported and observed concerning his own family , he might have found work ynough at home , and cause ynough to cast a beame out of his owne eye . But I will not follow his course in this maner ( howsoever it might be iust ) to deale with him as he doth with others .

4. The fourth is , of crueltie and tyranny : for proof whereof he allegeth that some of our owne members have complayned , that if they had a matter as cleare as the sunne against him , yet durst they not deale with him for it . But who be these some he speaketh of ? why doth he not name them at all ? Or would he haue vs to think that they be some such as hate the light , knowing that their works are evill , and whome he therfore concealeth : that he might shew himself with his fellowes Mr P● . and the rest to be fit receivers for such reporters ? Or why did he not obserue , that the Elders must be men of wisdome and judgement , able to discerne between cause and cause , plea & plea , & that it is their duty to repress the contentious & disobedient , froward and obstinate ? Which by whomsoever it be done , who can otherwise think but such will be as ready to open theyr mouthes against them , as they are to please themselves in their own eyes ? But howsoever they may for a while lurk & walk in the dark , yet God in his time will bring them to light & discover them , as he hath done this White himself & sundry other the like heretofore .

5. The other of the Elders he speaketh of , is Mr St. Mer. against whom he excepteth for Apostasie . The matter was thus . About thirteen yeares synce , a litle while after he was come to this cause which we professe , being in the countrey with his friends , he was there perswaded that he would heare some of the Ministers of the Church of England preach : Which he did once : And straightway after being affected therewith , did it no more . Which also he made knowen himself , whereas otherwise it was vnknowen to vs . Now after that time living with the Church , and being wel approved among vs , he was about five yeares since chosen to be one of the Elders . Thus is the case : wherein now mark this hypocrites dealing . The qualities and duties required in the Elders being so manie and great , as in the description are noted : was there nothing whereat he could except , but this onely ? And was his malice such , as rather then he would say nothing , he would except even for that which himself accounteth to be good and lawfull ? Let such dealing then returne into his owne bosome , and be a comfort to such as be thus abused by him .

From the Elders , he cometh to the Deacons , whose qualities & office is set down in the aforesaid description of a true Church , pag. 4. Their Deacons must be men of honest report , having the mysterie of the faith in a pure conscience , endued with the holy Ghost : they must be graue , temperate , not given to excesse , nor to filthy lucre . And afterward againe , Pag. 5. The Deacons office is faithfully to gather & collect by the ordinance of the Church , the goods and benevolence of the faithfull , and by the same direction , diligently and trust●lie to distribute them according to the necessitie of the Saincts : Further they must enquire and consider of the proportion of the wants both of the Officers and other poore , and accordinglie relate vnto the Church , that provision may be made . Here he excepteth onely against one of our Deacons , Mr C. Bow . To whom about eleven yeares synce , the Magistrates of Narden did once ( and not weekly , as this man intimateth ) send a litle money to be given to the poore of the Church : which he together with one of the Elders ( Mr. G. Kniston ) did accordingly bestow vpon such as they iudged to stand most in need . Whereof because goodwife Colg . ( the woman of whom he speaketh ) had not a part , therevpon by her meanes it seemeth was this report raised of Mr. Bow . which now this fellow hath published : and for which with his many such like instances , he is by Mr B. called before the Magistrates as a sclanderer . And touching the woman no marvel if shee so abused him , who hath synce in other things caryed her self so vngodlily , as she is cast out of the Church , and so remaineth . And for Mr. Bow : how wel he hath approved himself in his office , I shal not need to relate : neither need he regard any sclanderous tong or pen , knowing his owne integrity , and having the Churches testimony , to which he hath with good approbation ministred in that office now about fourteen yeares .

After this dealing with sondry of our officers in particular , the adversarie commeth to speak of the Elders ioyntly . Against whom he obiecteth , that we called R.W. ( that is Rose White his wife ) before vs in the first place , for a private thing . But it was , for that her child was kept vnbaptized ; and for that we heard she had entertayned Ma. Sl. at her table , who is a man excommunicated by our Church , whereof she was then a member . For these things onely was she called before the Elders : and for the first , together with her apostasie from the truth which before tyme she had professed with vs , she was a while after excommunicated by ●he whole Church . For the latter whenas she answered that it was her husbands doing , without her liking , and against her will ( though not so signifyed vnto him ) & that her self gaue the excommunicate no countenaunce as approving his estate , we rested therein : instructing her onely how to cary her self in such cases for tyme to come , & exhorting her to be carefull accordingly to walk as by the word of God we have rule and direction . Now for the hypocrite her husband himself , whereas he saith here , the Church of Christ do privately admonish a private sinne of a holy and loving affection : how will he shew this in the Church of England , whither he is gone ? or doth he hold it not to be the Church of Christ ? or that it is by some priviledg not bound to the ordinances of Christ ? Not to speak how himself by his owne mouth is condemned , whiles he acknowledgeth that Christians ought thus to walk , & yet publisheth he careth not what , things private or publick , true or false , and that with a wicked and malicious affection .

Lastly , from the officers he cometh to the people : objecting against them vncleannes , cousoning , disgracing , backbiting , and vndermyning one of another amongst themselves . But this onely in generall termes : And so might any vnclean mouth , and backbiting sclanderer , traduce any people in the world . Will he now then apply to himself & to his practise and † † The Prelate of Lond. &c. consorts in this work , that which the Prophet speakes , With our tounge will we prevaile ; our lippes are our owne ; who is Lord over vs ? Psal. 12.4 . Why boastest thou thy self in malice , ô man of power ? the loving kindnes of God indureth every day . Thy tounge imagineth mischief , it is like a sharpe rasor , ô thou worker of deceit . Thou lovest evill more then good , lyes more then to speak the truth . Selah . Thou lovest all words that may destroy , ô deceitfull tounge .

But above all , mark now the wickednes and blasphemie of his conclusion of this point . Which that it may the better appeare , & with lesse praejudice of others be regarded , I will put the case in an instance of Iacobs family , before Christs coming in the flesh , and of the Church of Corinth , synce Christs time : and therein will alledg ( not things forged , perverted , and abused , as this enemy doth against vs ) but true things onely and such as are recorded in the Scriptures themselves . That the family of Iacob was the Church of God , cannot be denied . Now in it we fynd , Gen. 29. & 30. & 31. & 34. that Iacob having two wives and two concubines , his wives envied one another ; Rachel stale away her Fathers idols ; Dinah his daughter was deflowred ; his sonnes deceitfully beguiled the Sichemites ; Simeon and Levi slew them in a rage ; Gen. 34. & 35. & 37. & 38. chap. Reuben committed incest with Bilhah his fathers concubine ; the other brothers hated envied and sold Ioseph into Egipt ; and coloured it with lving to Iacob their father ; Iudah lay with Thamar his daughter in law , taking her to be an whore , &c , Will now any man of knowledg and fearing God infer therefore herevpon , and say , Were these then the Church ▪ the Saincts , the Israell of God ? Were these the fathers of the tribes of Israell , so greatly renowmed through all posterity ? Were these the stones , the precious stones , embossed in the High priests Brestplate ? Were these the twelve Patriarks for the tyme of the Law , answerable to the twelve Apostles for the tyme of the Gospell ? Yet such you see are the conclusions , but in deed the delusions , of this blasphemous wretch .

But see it further in the Church of Corinth vnder the Gospel . In which , Epist. to he Corinhians . were schismes and dissensions , strife & envying , wrath and backbiting ; vncleanes and wantonnes , fornication and incest , hurting and jnjurying one of another , abusing of Christian liberty , sitting in the Idols temple at the Idols feast , declining from the Lords ordinance in the vse of the Sacraments , prayer and prophecy ; denying of the resurrection , &c. If now this white paynted hypocrite had lived in that age and Church , as he did with vs of late , would he nothing haue respected their faith , their order , their constitution , wherein they were set by the Apostle : but reprochfully have concluded and inferred against them , as here he doth , saying , Are these then this beautifull ? yea most wonderfull Church , ravishing the senses to conceiue of it ? are these the Saincts then marching in such a heavenly & gracious aray , where every stone hath his beauty , his burthen , and his order , where no law is wrongfully wrested , or wilfully neglected , no truth hid or perverted ? Thus indeed he shall shew himself to be one of those Ministers of Sathan ( spoken of in that Epistle ) who can transforme himself as though he were a Minister of righteousnes ; 2 Cor. 11.13.14.15 . whose e●d ●hal be according to his workes : howsoever f●r a tyme he may d●lude many poore soules and frustrate their expectation , as already he hath done .

As for W. Ha. & E. Ha. whose words ( as if they were of waight ) he recordeth , he should haue remembred , that these his companions are such whose mouth is no sclander , two such like as himself , poor soules in deed as touching faith and godlynes , but abundantly rich ( so to speak ) in dissembling , lying , rayling , backbiting &c. and therefore fit witnesses for such an accuser , their owne sayings fit testimonies against themselues , that they never needed to have separated themselues from the Church of England , as they did , being such also as this society would quickly have thrust them out from among vs , so living and practising as they do . No marvell then if when they had seen our estate , they were frustrate of their expectation , & therefore returned agayne to the Church of England , knowing it to be a fit cage for such birds .

And hitherto of the second head of his Treatise , concerning the ●●scription of a visible Church . According to which , if we would compare the estate of the Church of England , in the members , officers , worship , ministration , &c. as he hath done ours : let the Reader consider , whether it would not in truth be found so cleare a testimony against them and their practise , as neither he nor all his consorts ( the Prelates and their chapleynes ) could ever be able to turn away . Neyther that onely , but even their own description of a visible Church , as it is set downe in their Articles of religion agreed vpon in the yeare 1562. Artic. 19. which is thus , The visible Church of Christ is a congregation of faithfull men , in the which the pure word of God is preached , and the Sacraments be duly ministred according to Christs ordinance , in all those things that of necessity are requisite to the same . Which ( to vse his own words ) is a cleare testimony , Answ. to Mr , H. I. p. 14. &c. & a pregnant sentence of condemnation against themselves and their practise . Of which also I have otherwhere spoken heretofore , which yet re●ayneth vnanswered .

Of the third head of Th: White his Treatise .

THe third is , that he saith we condemne others , in those things that we would and do practise our selves . Which he pretendeth to shew in divers instances .

1. The first is , For communicating with open offenders . For which he refererth to that which is before shewed : and so do we : Adding this further , that our Church is so far from communicating with such , as it excommunicateth them , when once they are convinced and found obstinate : which himself knoweth to be true .

2. The second is , for making men swear to accuse themselves . A thing which neyther my self practised to I. L. ( as here he falsely objecteth ) neyther is at all practised among vs eyther publikly or privately that I know of . And for the matter of incest so reproachfully divulged against Mr St. this man knoweth himself that Rose White his own wife was the rayser of that opprobrious report , that he had lyen with hi● wives daughter : and that she both confessed it vnto me her self , & could not deny it here before the Magistrates , when she was by Mr St. now of late brought before them about it : as this man himself also is for a sclanderer , as I shewed before . For his not denying it for the clearing of himself , though he were requested for the satisfying of weak brethren so to do , he saith that he remembreth it not . But being thus dealt withal , he hath written this answer himself , which here I will annex out of his owne writing given vnto me hereabout . The malice and envie of this T. W. ( against me Da. Stud. ) hath appeared to be exceding great , both in his often speaking of me in his book as he hath done , and especially in this place , where making an end of mentioning my name , he thought he would powre forth his rancour to the full , Therefore thus he saith , Yet would not their Elder Da. Stud. never so much as deny the matter of incest with his wives daughter , for the clearing of himself , though hee were requested for the satisfying of weake bretheren so to do . In these words of his , he would make the world beleive as if some came vnto me in frendly wise to know whether I had committed incest or no , and as if they required my direct answere vnto it for the satisfijng of weak bretheren . To which his words I answere : First thus : That there never came any so vnto me as he falsely forgeth , and therefore herein he lyeth egregiously . Secondly I aske why he did not set downe what my answere was to such as he insinuateth came vnto me . For if my answer were evil , no doubt he would not haue spared to sett it down : if it were good , they would and ought to have rested in it . Further it is to be mynded , that he hath not named them that came vnto me , which if he had done , himself saw that then his wickednes would the more appeare . Thirdly this I do affirm , That such as have spoken vnto me ( about this slander and reproch raysed of me ) in any christian and orderly manner , I have answered them to their full satisfaction : and to such as disorderly and reprochfully have spoken to me thereof , I have , ( mynding the persons as I esteemed them ) eyther passed by them with silence , or else vrged them to do the worst they could vnto mee , being ready to answere them according to their dealing with me , as I have now endevoured to do with this T. W. & Rose his wife ( the first author of this accusation ) whom I have called before the Magistrates , for slandring of me . Fourthly being thus provoked by him , my answer now is , That if T.W. with his father if he were living ( being reputed to have skill in the black art ) had the help of him , and of all the divells in hell ioyned together , yet should he never be able to prove this his wicked slander vpon me . Moreover I would demaund these things of T.W. as followeth : First whether he will denye that his father spake thus of him , I misse my ayme if ever this my sonn T.W. do proue a good man . Secondly , whether he wil deny that he knowes not some that can tell of his evill dealing about Clokes . Thirdly whether he will deny that he hath not dealt yll with some about a Bible . Fourthly : whether hee will deny that he hath committed the like sinne as T.C. hath , whom he mentioneth in his book . Lastly I ask him , whether if he do not presently deny these things , or any the like , that by any shal be demaunded of him , he be content to have it taken for granted that then he is gilty of them . If this be his iudgment , let him take it to himself , as wise as he will be otherwise mynded . And thus I leave him & this his dealing and account thereof , to him that iudgeth righteously , and so end with this saying , An hypocrite with his mouth hurteth his neighbour , but the righteous shal be delivered by knowledg , Pro. 11 , 9 , Da. St.

3. In the third , he hath againe cowched divers vntruths together . As when he saith we condemne the Dutch Churches , for baptising the seed of those that are not members of their Church . Which is not so : but we dislike in the Dutch Church of this towne , that they baptise the seed of them who are not members of any visible Church , and besides admit not the parents themselves to the Lords supper . Great difference there is between these two , Confess . with Mr Iun. letters . pag. 54. not to be members of their Church , and , not to be members of any visible Church . And this it seemeth himself perceived , and therefore kept not our words , as he had them set downe in the book alledged by himself . But yet more , in that he saith my self with the rest could offer to receive Mr Deuxburies child to baptisme , who neither was neyther would ioyne himself a member vnto vs . For Mr Deuxb . ( who dwelt about fifteen miles from vs ) being desirous that we would baptize his child , we wrote vnto him that we could not admit of it , And that we might & would , if he did thus . vnles he would make profession of the same faith with vs , & be careful so to walk , eyther with vs or with some other Church , in the same truth of the Gospel , as God for his dwelling & estate should give him opportunity . Which he not performing we baptized not his child . And of this refusal of ours , himself spake but a day or two before his death , to one of the members of our Church , W. Simson . a soldier who was then with him in the army where he was slayne . Which things being so , how then should it be as he saith further , that we were offended at G : I. for withstanding it , when we our selves so wrote and dealt in it , as is aforesaid . Or how had he any hand in this busines , when Mr Deuxb . writing to one of the Elders , had answer from them all ioyntly , of whome he was none ?

4. In the fourth , his bad dealing doth yet further appeare : it being a matter , wherewith himself is acquainted , and yet propoundeth not the case truely , as he knoweth it to be . We have indeed misliked in the Dutch Church ( not Churches , as he speaketh ) of Amsterdam that consisting of so great a multitude , it is but one , and yet meeteth in three severall places : by meanes whereof , the whole Church cannot come together in one ; the ministers can not together with the flock sanctifie the Lords day ; the presence or absence of the members of the Church cannot certainly be knowen ; nor any publick action be rightly performed . Which reasons we signifyed to themselves in our dealing with them heretofore . On the other side , we misliked also that a few people , being straungers together in one towne , of one language , of one profession in religion , & having not before tyme their peculiar officers , should in such case yet divide themselues into severall Churches : For which I required example or warrant out of the Scriptures , and alledged my self divers reasons about this question . And what contrariety now is there in these things , being laid together as they ought , with their true and due circumstances ? Such perhaps as the false teachers would pretend against Paul , when he circumcised Timothee , Act. 16.1.3 . and yet would not circumcise Titus , but withstood the false brethren that vrged it , Gal. 2.3.4.5 .

The others he speaketh of , were himself and some other with him , who had left the Church of England , and came to dwell here . Touching whom , seing he pretendeth that they ioyned not to vs for divers disorders amongst vs , I wil here advertise the Reader a few things concerning them , and those also specially out of their own letters , which being as their owne children shall also be their Iudges . When they had left the Church of England , as having a● Antichristian Ministery , worship , confusion , &c. they first joyned in & to a Church in the West parts of England professing the same faith with vs . A while after , they came over hither , & at first communicated with vs : but afterward ( being about twelve or thirteen ) they ioyned themselues here as a body together , to walk in the same faith and way as we do ; reputing and calling themselves a Church , distinct from vs , and in their letters to the Church of the West countrey thus inscribed them , The Church in Amst. to our bretheren the Church in the West , partakers of the same heavenly vocation , &c. And in the letter wrote thus , For our consultation & resolution thus it is , To meet apart by our selves , aswell for the redresse of disorders that may arise , as also for the administration of the word , expecting the blessing of God which hath not chosen vs for our multitude , seeing we were the fewest of all others . And againe in the same letter , for our own estate , though our hope to be a body distinct in our countrey were , yet is not our hope to be a distinct body in a straung countrey frustrated , but rather accomplished . And afterward againe speaking of vs , and themselues , they say , For the other Churches estate , though that acknowledgment of them were graunted , yet all things considered , whether God doth not offer vs occasion to increase the number of the Churches , and our selves to walk together in holynes to the Lord , who have had better experience one of another then of that Churches estate , that by this meanes the adversaries reproches , of one Church , and flocking therevnto , setting vp one head , may be stopped , is the thing we pray you to ponder . Thus they wrote in a generall letter together .

And in another of theirs written in particular by this T. White & Tho. Pow. We ( say they ) through Gods mercy haue our meetings now apart from our bretheren the Church in Amsterdam , building vp our selves with that small ability that God hath inabed vs withall &c. as also receiving such members as we fynd meet and desirous of our fellowship . And afterward in the same letter , W● haue had one meeting already together , wherein M. W. is ioyned . Consider that which is written , Exo. 7. ● . and pray with vs that the Lord would s●nd the Northwynd and the Southwynd , the one cold the other hote , Luk: 12.55 . that is , the liuely graces of his spirit in the preaching of his Law and Gospell , to blow vp that our garden may be fruitfull , Cant. 4.16 . but not an Eastwynd which withered Ionas gourd , Ion 4. Thus wrote they then of themselves . By which may appear , both what they intended , and for what . They intended to be a severall Church from vs , though they were but a few , and of the same faith , living straungers together , in the same towne , &c. And the cause why they did it , That they might redresse disorders among themselves ; that they might be a distinct body in a straung countrey , as they purposed in our native countrey , before they came over hither ; that they might encrease the number of Churches ; that they might stop the adversaries reproches , of one Church , and flocking therevnto , setting vp one head ; that they might receive such members as were desirous of their fellowship ; and that they might also themselves be a garden , fruitfull , &c.

If these things were so as then they wrote , how saith he now in his book , that the cause why they would not ioyne to vs , was for disorders amongst vs ? How do his letters and his Libell agree together ? Specially seing in the same letters , at the same tyme , they write vs to be their brethren the Church in Amsterdam ; of whose estate they had not that experience &c. Belike he had forgotten the old saying , Mendacem oportet esse memorem , A lyer had need have a good memorie . And further , if it were as he saith now , why did they not then so alledg , that we might haue insisted therevpon ? why shrank they from the handling of the question between vs , which we would have discussed by the Scriptures , had not they refused as they did ? But ( if some be not mistaken ) there was an other cause then any of the aforesaid , which they will not make knowen , namely , that Mr Po. & this White might have bene Officers of that Church , whereof they had little hope among vs to satisfie their desier : Which whether it were so or not , themselves know best . And howsoever , yet with what face can this hypocrite write as he doth , that they would not joyn to vs for divers disorders among vs , when but even a while after , they returned to the Church of England , which they knew certainly to have not onely divers disorders , but even a multitude of the corruptions of Antichrist the sonne of perdition .

Well might he write of these things , as he did in another letter of his to Mr S. W. Respice finem , Look to the end . For as they sowed , so have they reaped ▪ not having the wind of Gods grace to blow vpon them that they might be a fruitfull garden , but the worme of Gods judgment to smite them that they might become a withered gourd . And this according to his owne prophecy ( though as Caiaphas speaking more trueth then himself intended ) when to the same Mr S. W. he wrote thus also , Certainly if God doth not worke mightily for vs we shall come to desolation . Balaam even then when he would have cursed Israel , prophecied the truth , though against his will .

5. The fift is a meer calumniation , like the rest . In the place quoted , we blame in the Dutch ( as we do also in the French ) Church of this towne , that the rule and commaundement of Christ , Mat. 18.15.16.17 . they neyther observe , nor suffer rightly to be observed among them . ( If this man-pleaser could approue them herein , why doth he not ? ) For our selves we do carefully observe it , & think all the Churches of Christ are bound so to do . For deciding of matters which are of publick nature , they are made knowen and decided among vs in & by the whole body of the Church , and not by the Elders alone . Yet therein we have this order , that all such matters be first signifyed to the Elders , to whom the oversight of the Church and affaires thereof apperteyneth : by whom likewise they are proprounded advised & treated of also publickly , as the cases do require . Of which points we have spoken sufficient ( at least till we be answered ) in our Apologie against the Oxf. Doct. pag. 63.64 . Notwithstanding if any come to the Elders , eyther for our advise or to have some matters brought to the Church , we shew them what we think to be best as we are perswaded our selves : & yet debar not any from proceeding further , so as they will answer their doing to the Church , as there the case shal be found to be . And this to be our practise and maner of walking , I think this man himself knoweth well .

For T. C. his matter , the Elders did not decide it ( as he falsely saith ) but shewed him what we our selves thought to be best according to godlynes , and required of him to do no otherwise in it , then he could answer to God and to the Church . Of the matter it self , as also of W. H. is spoken here before , pag. 33. And for that he saith here , seeing W.H. his wife put him away , who can constreine her or any other in like case to retein such if themselves be not willing .

For the bringing of matters in a third place to the Elders , as they have obiected : Mr P. himself & the rest of them have ben answered , that we do not so : but that when in the third place a matter is to come vnto the Church by that rule of Mat. 18. this is the order we keep therein , that first knowledg thereof be given to the Elders , the overseers of the Church , then that they seing the matter to be such and so dealt in as is to come to the Church , it be by them publickly propounded and prosequuted as is meet : whereas otherwise both the Church might be troubled and mens names and private matters be brought in publick without iust cause . And this we do , not adding to that rule of Christ ( as this man and his followers have still objected ) but having that care and keeping that order in the observation thereof , as the Scriptures els where lead vs vnto . For which , see 1 Tim. 5.17.18.19.21.22 . & 4.14 . Heb. 13.17 . Rom. 12.7.8.1 . Thes. 5.12.13.14.27 . Rev. 2.1.7.8.11.12.18.29 & 3.1.6.7.13.14.22 . with Exod. 3.16 . & 4.29.30.31 . & 12.21 . and with 1 Cor. 14.40 .

By which also may appeare how frivolous it is , that he saith we alledge the same reasons for our practise , which we approue no● in ●he Dutch. As if we should put no difference between the Eldership alone hearing and deciding the publick matters of the Church , & between the Elders according to their office having knowledg advising and propounding of such matters to be heard and discussed by the body of the Church jo●ntly together ; Or as if the reasons which warrant a lawfull thing , should also beare out that which is vnlawfull ; or that we should not therefore disallow them , when by any they are so applyed ?

And for the abuse of that rule of Mat. 18. whether through evill affection in partiality and envie , or to an evill end to cover filthynes withall , if any do so as he saith ( measuring others it may be by the length of his owne foot ) they are to answer it to God , who knoweth the heart and tryeth the reynes to give to every one according to their works . Our duty is , for that which man may see & judge , to have that rule as all other the ordinances of Christ carefully observed among vs : Whereat let him consider if his heart grieve not more then it doth that the Church of England , of which he is , neyther doth nor can in their estate observe that nor many other the ordinances of Christ : by reason whereof they cannot be esteemed a true Church of Christ in such constitution : As I shewed before , pag. 8.

6. For the sixt , which is about the worshipping of God in the Idol Temples of Antichrist , can he not put difference between the ordinarie publick worship of the Church in such places , and the occasionall receiving of a●mes therein by the poore ? Neither between the benevolence of a Church to the Ministers or Saints of Christ ( which is ●he sacrifice spoken of Phil. 4.18 ) & the relief of a City given to the poore that dwell among them , be they of any religion whatsoever , one or other ? Which I speak not , as discommending the care they have for the poore among them ( which is very great , and much commendable ) but to shew the nature of this action , & how it is performed . Nor will he discerne between the solemne appointed worship of God by the Church so assembled together , and the private duties of thankfulnes , of salutation , or the like ? Or doth he think we hold it not lawfull to walk vp and downe in the Idol Temples , as they vse in Powles at London ; or if we be walking there , to lift vp our hearts to God as occasion may be ; or if we meet some there of whom we have received a benefit , to give them thankes , Or if their Temples were made prisons ( as in Powles aforesaid there are divers ) and some of vs committed thither ( as heretofore sundry have bene by the Prelates ) that we would not pray there , yea & preach also as there might be occasion ? Or when we did so , would he therevpon inferre ( as now he doth ) that we condemne others in those things which we would and do our selues ? A senseles conclusion : but wel beseming a Baals Priest , that hath a good will ( if he had ability withall ) to plead for Baals altars and houses .

As for the poynt it self , and the place of Deut. 12. we haue written already in other Treatises not yet aunswered . Apologie . Discovery . Refutation . Questions . Answer to Mr H. &c. Therefore need I not now write more about it here . But let the Reader obserue here how this Idoll Priest himself yeeldeth these places to be Idoll Temples , and the Temples of Antichrist : Yet bringeth no warrant for the reserving and appoynting of them to spirituall vse in the worship of God : but saith playnly , if the commandement Deut. 12. be moral ( which he cannot deny , if he hold it morall for the Images and altars ) that then no civill vse of them may be had at all , much lesse spiritual . And yet I suppose he will not deny , but Iehu the King of Israel put the house of Baal to a lawfull vse , 2 King . 10.27 .

7. The seaventh is , that whereas we shewed the Dutch here , that they vse a new censure of Suspension , which Christ hath not appoynted : yet we ourselves suspended M. S. many moneths together before his excommunication : But this he should have proved so to have ben . The Dutch suspend their members from the Lords supper , and yet admit them to participation of the word and prayer . so did not we . But the case was thus : The said Mat. Sl. having declined from the truth which before he professed with vs to sundry errors of the Dutch here , it required many dayes to deale with him and convince him in them all , which we were carefull to do . Now when some of them being handled , he was admonished by the Church to repent and returne to the truth , and he notwithstanding obstinately persisted against the voyce of Christ so speaking vnto him , there were some of vs who thought it not lawfull to have any more spirituall communion with him when he came to our publik metings . Whereabout there b●ing some question , and all the particulars being not yet finished , it was agreed for the present , when he did so come , to deale with him about the residue of the poynts yet remaining . Which being donne , and divers dayes ( week after week ) being so imployed for the convincing of him in all : the Church did then excommunicate him , as here is said , and so he remaineth at this day : a man overcome with the love of this world ( here called his preferment ) and never a whit too good , when he was at the best , to be of our fellowship , which is in the Gospell of Iesus Christ . For which , he that thinketh any too good , is himself stark naught .

8. For the eight , about non residency , howsoever he speak of Mr Br. his absence fr●m the Church , and this without any leave thereof , yet himself knoweth that he with some others of vs was vpon speciall occasion sent by the Church into England , and there imployed a long time about that busines : Wherein also what good paynes he took & with what great carefulnes , even this White himself was often a present beholder & witnes . When he stayed there , vpon other occasion , he saith it was not so long as here is deceitfully pretended , ( though longer then he or we would have had it ) and that he could not then possibly do otherwise , as things fell out . But I will not here insist to speake , what may be done in cases of necessitie or speciall occasion ; or to put difference between factours , servants , and men agreing together on mutuall conditions ; nor vpon the difference that is between Ministers of the word and the Deacons ; and specially the difference between one man having two three or fower benefices ( as they call them ) by reason whereof , though he be still with some of those Churches , yet must he needs be a non resident all his life , and between one Church having two three or mo Deacons , by meanes whereof though some be absent vpon occasion , yet there are other vsually present to performe the duties apperteyning to the office notwithstanding . But of these things I will not stand . For that which we desier and approve is , that he which hath an office should waite on his office , Rom. 12.7.8 .

9. Now followeth the last of his instances , but not the least for the lyes and sclanders conteined therein . The first particular here spoken of is about this , that we blamed in the Dutch Church of this towne , that they receive vnrepentant excommunicants , to be members of their Church : which by this meanes becommeth one body with such as be delivered vnto Sathan . But this man had no list to set it downe in our owne words , because he hath no love to speak of things as the truth is . And if there were no other corruption but this onely in the Church aforesaid , let such as are of judgment consider whether we have not just cause to put difference between it , & the other Churches of these countreyes that stand not in like transgression : ( of which we spake before , pag. 25. ) and whether we which know these things and have had dealing with them thereabout , may suffer the members of our Church to joyne with them in this estate , in any part of their worship and Ministration , be it the preaching of the word , or any other whatsoever . Yet notwithstanding it is false that he saith we excommunicated our owne members onely for hearing the word preached amongst the Dutch or French : for those whome yet we haue cast out hereabout , it hath bene partly for their revolting from the trueth which they have professed with vs , to the corruptions of these Churches ( which declining as they may shew in hearing the word preached among them in such estate , 1 Cor. 10.18 . so are we accordingly to esteem thereof ) and partly for other sinnes withall , whereinto they have fallen . And a most shamelesly it is , that he saith we are our selves one body with an excommunicate from the French Church . The party whom he intendeth ( now one of the Elders of our Church ) was not excommunicated by them , but did himself leave them for their corruptions , after he had long & much dealt with them in all good manner to the vttermost of his power thereabout , & they persisted therein notwithstanding .

The next particular here spoken of , is about our dislike of them for that they observe daies and times , consecrating certaine dayes in the yeare to the Nativitie , Resurrection , Ascension of Christ &c. Which this adversarie himself knoweth we do not : though his conscience be so seared as he careth not how he bely vs and abuse the Reader , so he may seem to say something against vs . And straunge it is ( if he were not impudent out of measure ) that he is not ashamed to say that we observe their holy dayes as much as they do . A thing which is false , in both the instances which himself giveth hereabout : the one being about the shutting of shops , the other about our publick meetings for worship , on those dayes . For towching the first , such of vs as shut their shops , do it not in respect of religion or with observance of publick worship as they do , but partly thinking it to be a thing civill which may be done at the Magistrats appointment , seing no spirituall observation is vrged vpon vs withall , partly chusing rather so to do then to pay the penalty whereto otherwise they are lyable , it being far more then in compasse of the day they could by their labour obteyn . Others of vs do on those dayes follow their ordinary labour , & some have bene called and have answered it before the Magistrates , alledging divers reasons of their doing , in regard of Gods requiring but one day in seaven for publick worship , and permitting six for labour , & because of the popish and superstitious observance of these tymes still reteyned , and other the like . And what though in these things , being matters of such nature and question , we have differed in judgment ? Act. 15. Rom. 14. Phil. 3.16 . Is it any other thing then the Christians in the Primitive Churches , & at this day , & in all ages haue ben & may be in divers cases subject vnto ? For the second , it is a notable deceitfull vntruth , that we have our meetings for worship on their holy dayes : For although their Easter and Whitsunday falling alwayes on the Lords day , & the feast of Ascension of the fift day on the week called Ascension Thursday , we haue our publick meetings on those dayes , yet it is not at all in respect of their holy dayes , but because that weekly we have our meetings on those dayes all the yeare thorow . Besides , if we observed their holy dayes as much as they do , we should have a religious regard of them & have our publick metings for worship as they have , on Christmasse day & the morrow after , also on the morrow after Easter and Whitsunday . Which dayes together with the former he knoweth they observe , and we not . Yet shameth he not thus to write as he doth : as if his Lords the Prelates had given him a dispensation to lye and calumniate , no matter how , and that now he is growen so wicked and shameles that he counteth it nothing so to do , if thereby he may please his Lords or pleasure himself : God thus justly punishing his former hyprocrisie and present apostasy : & so matching his writing with his walking , as it should be an evident testimony in the sight of all how vndeniably his owne collections are true in himself , as in his Lords too , which so injuriously he would apply vnto vs ; and how far he is behind the very heathen , even Medea her self which said , Video meliora proboque , Deteriora sequor , I see better things & approve them , but I follow the worse : wheras himself , after the example of his Patrones , though he see better things , yet doth not so much as approve them , but set himself to oppugne them what he can possibly ; and for the worse things , doth not onely follow them , but approve and applaud them most shamefully : yea and therevnto bringeth pretended allegation of Scripture , as if it were no sinne to take the Name of God in vayne , and make the Scriptures serve his owne fancy , yea his lyes & calumnies . For which certainly the Lord will not hold him guiltles .

And where he pretendeth against vs as if he could declare false and impertinent allegation of Scripture , and yet passeth by it vndeclared : the Reader observing his purpose and dealing may easily gather , that if he thought himself able to do it , he wanteth no will therevnto . That which he referreth vnto in a book already published , will not prove it so much as in part ; A Discourse of certaine troubles & excom. &c. no though himself with all his ayders do joyne withall . The point is about the Scriptures alledged by vs against the yearely chaunge of the Elders in this Dutch Church , and not continewing in their office according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the Primitive Churches : Which Scriptures be these , Rom. 12.4.5.6.7.8 . 1 Cor. 12.11.12 . &c. Act. 20.17.28 . 1 Pet. 5.1.2.3.4 . and Numb. 8.24 . &c. Where there be many reasons expressed and included , plainely disproving the yearely chaunge and dismission aforesaid : As namely , the authority and work of the Lord making them Overseers of his Church , and placing them as members in his body ; the duties of wayting on their office , of feeding the flock committed vnto them , of attendance , care , and watchfulnes therein ; the account to be given thereof vnto the Lord ; and the reward to be hoped for from him according to his promise at that day ; and other the like . Neither can any example , or reason of sound consequence , be shewed from the Scriptures for warrant of their practise . But I need not speak further of this point , vnles some would vndertake their defence against vs in the particulars wherein we have had to deale with them . Which neyther themselves could performe , nor any other would yet so much as attempt for them , though some great learned men have had just occasion therevnto , if they could have done it .

As for that he saith of the book aforesaid lying vnanswered , we have divers reasons for so leaving it . 1. It is but part of a book , printed before the rest was finished : And to see the whole , might be of speciall vse if an answer should be given vnto it . 2. Synce the writing thereof , it pleased God to visite him with sicknes that he died : And seing he is dead , we do so leave him : forbearing now to write what we could : a● is well knowen to many . 3. He did not , like as this man , leave or contrary our generall cause and testimony against the Church of England : but held it so himself , as of late going into England he was there taken and put in prison for this cause , where he died vnder their hands . These reasons among other we have of not answering it : Being notwithstanding alway ready ( as there is just and needfull occasion ) to answer for our selves , & to defend the trueth and equity of our cause & dealing , or wherein we haue erred to acknowledg and amend it , as we have often signifyed heretofore .

Now for that wherewith he concludeth , even false accusations of whole Churches , & would shew it by comparing the 7. accusation in our letters to Mr Iunius , Confess . with Mr Iun. letters . Pag. 54. with the practise of the Dutch Churches : it is to be observed , that the particular corruptions there noted whereof we have advertised the Eldership of this Dutch Church , be ele●en in all : so as this enemy graunteth himself ten of them to be true : And for the other , that one whereof he speaketh , namely their yearly chaunge of Elders , it also is so true , as the Ministers themselves deputed among them to deale with vs , & knowing best their owne estate & practise , did never so much as once offer to deny it ; and their continuall practise ( if they have not left it of late ) avowcheth it against all gaynsayers . Yet this flatt●rer ( to speak somewhat for them ) shameth not to say that is false which is very true : like as here before against vs he affirmed those things to be true which are very false . A fit servant for his Lords the Prelates , with whom it is common in all their dealing against vs , to account & give out of the truth that it is falsehood , and againe of falsehood that it is trueth : That in himself and his Masters may be seen verifyed that saying of Plautus here alledged , Iustum non iustum , non iustum iustum , quod vobis placet . Let them therfore consider their wayes in their heart , and lay their hands on their mouth : Els let them know that out of their owne mouth they shal be judged , according to those denuntiations & reproofs here spoken of , both by the Apostle , Rom. 2.1 — 9. and by the Prophet , Psal. 50.16 — 22. and by Christ himself , Mat. 7.1 — 5. Luk. 19.22 . Which I leave this hypocrite with his fellowes to ponder and apply to themselves : and will now conclude this third head of his Treatise , and our answer to his false accusations , with that saying of Apuleius , Insimulari quivis innocens a quovis nebulone potest : Or rather with that answer of Nehemiah ,

Nehem. 6.8 .

Prov. 24.28 .

It is not done according to thes● words that thou sayest : but thou feynest them of thyne own heart . And with that of Salomon in his Proverbes , Be not a witnes against thy neighbour without cause : for wilt thou deceive with thy lippes ? And hitherto concerning the third head of his Treatise .

Of the fourth head of Th: White his Treatise .

THe fourth and last is , that he saith we have drawen the curse of God on our selves by rash vniust & wicked excommunication . Where first in generall observe these things . 1. That we have the power and vse of excommunication : without which no Church can walk aright in obedience of the faith of Christ ▪ nor long continue without manifold errors and corruptions prevayling among them . 2. That even by this appeareth we hold that evill men may creep into and arise in the Church . 3. And that when they are once knowen and will not be reclaymed from their evill , we approue them not , but cast them out from among vs . And so this fourth poynt being well observed , overthroweth the whole tenour and intendement of all his writing against vs . Now to come to the particulars .

1. About thirteen yeares synce , this Church through persecution in England , was driven to come into these countreyes . A while after they were come hither , divers of them fell into the heresies of the Anabaptists ( which are too common in these countreys ) and so persisting were excommunicated by the rest . Then a while after that againe , many others ( of whom specially I think he speaketh he●● ) some elder some younger , even too many , though not the ha● ( as I vnderstand ) fell into a schisme from the rest , and so many of them as continewed therein were cast out : divers other of them repenting and returning before excomunication , & divers of them after . As for him in particular of whom he speaketh that he was distracted in mynd , 1. He was not then so knowen to be , neyther so reputed of his fellowes , but onely that he had some trouble of conscience which disquieted him . 2. Yet sithens it hath bene pleaded by some that he was dist●acted , wherevpon to himself it hath ben offred by the Church , that if he would come & affirme as much publikly in the Church as he and others had said more privately to some of vs thereabout , and that the contrary could not by any be shewed against him , then the Church would acknowledg that they offended in casting him out , and he should be received agayne . But this he would never yet do : although it have bene signifyed to him againe and agayne by my self and others , that thus the Church had agreed concerning him . And thus standeth his case .

For the excommunication in generall , it was in deed recalled : wheervpon C.S. one of the schismed here mentioned by him , wrote vnto me thereabout . ( And here the Reader is to know that my self with some others of vs , both of the officers and other brethren , were then prisoners at London , while these things fell out in the Church being in the Low countreyes . ) Now in his letter he wrote , that the brethren had revoked it as rash and vniust , denying also that he and the rest with him had made the separation &c. With this letter I acquainted the other also then in prison : & we thought it best ( considering the case as we had before ben informed and tooke it to be ) to send his letter to the brethren aforesaid , that they might see how he had written thereof , & we might know the truth of things how they stood . Wherevpon the matter being againe and further examined both by them & by vs ( as in such estate and distance of place we could do ) it was in the end agreed vpon by the Church , that the excommunication was iust and not to be recalled , notwithstanding the errors in the maner of proceeding thereabout : which the Church then did and alway is ready to acknowledg , and wherevpon they had before revoked it 〈◊〉 vniust , onely in respect of that cir●umstance , but not at all clearing the schismed of their transgression they stood in ▪ which at that time the schismed themselues agre●d vnto , confessing the cause they stood for , to be evill .

And now both for their good whom this matter more specially concerneth , as also for the satisfying of others , and that Th. White his abusing of vs may better appeare , I will here briefly note downe the grounds whervpon the excommunication was esteemed iust & not to be recalled : as I find in some writings reserved about this matter : Which was thus . 1. The excommunicated were found to be abettours of an evill cause , and therevpon to have made the schisme at the first : and so were guilty of the sinne for which they were proceeded against . And this was then agreed on all hands , as we were let to vnderstand . 2. They also were afterward divers tymes and wayes reproved & admonished thereof ; They had sight of the witnesses testimonies about the matter then in question ; they heard the reasons gathered by one of the brethren for their conviction ; the Church sent vnto them of the best able of the brethren to deale with them , besides that we wrote from London concerning this matter , exhorting them to peace &c. And all this before the last message of the Church vnto them , which was that they should ●●me to the Church , & there they should be convicted , or if they came not they should be cast out . 3. They yet remayned impenitent and despised the Churches voyce and authority . Which appeared by their answer to the Churches message aforesaid , being to this effect , That as by commaundement or as vnto the Church they would not come at any time : And , that whereas some of them were to go out of the towne on the morrow , and all of them were at that time vnprovided to maynteyne their cause , if they might have a hand with them in appointing another day , they would come to conferre with them and mainteyne that they did . In which answer be divers things shewing their impenitency and despising the Churches authority . 1. Their answering resolutely , that by comaundement or as vnto the Church they would not come at any time . 2. That they would have an hand in appointing the day when they would come . Which might have greatly infringed the libertie & power of the Church , to yeeld vnto schismaticks an equall authority in such cases . 3. That their comming should be to conferre and mainteyne their cause , not to shew repentance . Besides that some of them also dispitefully asked the brethren , when they would draw out their woodden dagger , &c. Now whereas it hath bene objected , that they refused not simply to come , that charity would have taken things in the best part , that the Church might have appointed them another day &c. it was also graunted that these and all such things should have bene duly weighed afore the censure had bene executed , and that whatsoever errour was committed therin is alway to be acknowledged : yet for the reasons before alledged , the censure was deemed to be just and not to be recalled .

And for those he speaketh of that withstood their receiving in againe , even this sheweth that there were then among themselves which thought the excommunication was not to be revoked . Yet were not they therefore excommunicated , as he saith : but were earnestly exhorted to rest in their difference of judgement , and notwithstanding it peaceably to continew with the Church , if it were but till they could vse the advise and help of others for the better clearing of this conttroversy which had so long & much troubled them . Yet they would not , but left of all communion with the Church : and so persisting , were for this cause excommunicated : Who also afterward vpon acknowledgement of their e●rour therein were received agayne .

Finally for the reversing agayn of the censure aforesaid , who k●oweth not that even the best and wisest men have their second & 〈◊〉 thoughts : and that in some cases this befell the Prophets & Apostles themselves : howsoever here he terme it a dallying : esteeming others belike by himself who hath so chaunged and rechaunged his faith and profession as if he thought he might dally with religion at his pleasure . But the Lord is not mocked : As he hath sowed to the flesh , so let him look of the flesh to reap corruption . For as every man soweth , so shall he reap . Gal. 6.7.8 .

2. Of the second instance , which is about such as have heard the word preached in the Dutch Church , I have spoken before . If he had named the divers he speaketh of , it might have bene shewed that they were cast out for divers causes . As M. Sl. whom onely he nameth in particular was , for receiving and maynteyning these errors , 1. The baptising of the seed of such as are no members of any visible Church of Christ , neyther can be themselves received to the Lords supper in any such Church . 2. Read prayer , or a set forme of prayers prescribed by men for th● worship of God : As also , mainteyning that that onely is not to be vs●d in the worship of God , which God himself hath commaunded . These are other things then onely hearing the word preached , as this Proctor for excommunicates objecteth agayne and agayne in his Libell . And both the Teacher and my self told him aforehand what would follow , if he ioyned with the Dutch in these corruptions aforesaid . Which M. Sl. himself knoweth to be true . As he doth also that the other matter here intimated , was about their Temples ( whither he was to bring the schollers to the publick worship ) : concerning which there being then some diversity of judgement , and himself affirming that he had alwayes held it lawfull to heare in those places , & so had ‡ ‡ In these countreyes , being from the Church vpon occasion . before practised , after he was come to this cause , I said ( as I remember ) that it should not trouble my self , & for others I would therein perswade them the best I could : † † But afterward I did speak more to him here about , as he may remember . But whereas we heard that the Dutch baptized all that were brought vnto them , & vsed also read prayer in their worship , I told him also that if these things being so he should partake with them therein , that then his case would prove such as we could not keep communion together . Yet he went on , & persisted , and so for his receiving and mainteyning of these corruptions among them , about baptisme and read prayer , he was cast out of the Church . By which also , this mans dealing and depraving a●ter his maner , may here be observed .

And for the generall , of excommunicating such as being of vs have declined to the corruptions of these Churches , the Law of God requireth that all sinne and sinners be censured without respect of persons . And who ever would have blamed ‡ ‡ Smyrn● Philadelphia &c. such of the Primitive Churches as were free from the errors found in † † Corinth . Galat. Pergamu● &c. others of them at the same tyme , about the resurrection from the dead , fornication spirituall and bodily , iustification by workes of the Law &c. if any of their members declining therevnto they should have excommunicated them for this cause . If the particulars noted in this Dutch Church be not errors & corruptions , why is not that poynt vndertaken to be cleared ? If they be such , why should we not for them accordingly censure our members declining therevnto ?

3. Of the third , which is about the question of Apostasie , ( often spoken of by him who is so notable an Apostate himself ) I have spoken somewhat before , Pag. 34. Now further the Reader is to know , that while my self with some other of vs were prisoners in England , there fell out question about this matter among the brethren here in these countreyes . Whereof knowledge being given vnto vs from hence , we wrote a letter vnto them , setting downe what our judgment then was about this point , & the reasons perswading vs therevnto . And this is that wherof he speaketh here : which we wrote to the Church being absent from it . Whereabout some of the brethren from hence wrote vnto vs a while after , how they were contrarie mynded , and their reasons thereof . Afterward it pleased God so to dispose as we were discharged out of prison , and came over hither . Being here , there was speach and question againe about this matter : And some of vs did now consider further about it , more being observed out of the Scriptures about this point , then at the first had ben . And so began the alteration of our iudgment to be such as it is . Which was a good while before ever we heard any thing concerning Mr A. So very false it is which here he writeth thereabout .

And for those that were cast out , these things are to be observed : 1. Both the poynt in generall , and the case in particular was considered . For the generall , these questions were spoken of ,

And these were in deed the causes that made vs think more and otherwise of this matter , than we had done .

Which we also shewed in the Church .

whether the Priests being speciall types of Christ , the exception out of Ezech. 44. where they are spoken of , do yet include all persons , tymes , offices , and conditions , &c. Also , whether even in the tyme of the Law , the Levites ( which were not of the Priests ) falling to Idolatry , and afterward repenting , might not againe have and execute the same office & function as they had before : And in the New Testament , whether Iohn Mark at first refused by Paul for his apostasie , Act. 15.37.38 . was not afterward received by the same Apostle and employed in the Ministerie of the Gospell notwithstanding , Col. 4.10.11 . &c. For the particular , it was also considered , what the exception was about ( which is spoken of before , Pag. 42. ) that themselves could not deny but he was a man very fit for the office in all other respects ; that he was already in office , and the thing before this tyme not knowen to the Church concerning him ; ( although if it had bene knowen , consideration were to be had of the nature of the thing done , of the condition of the person , of the estate of the Church , and other the like circumstances to be observed thereabout ) that both before and after his being in office he had well approved himself to and with the Church , to the great help & comfort of vs all , &c. 2. Yet notwithstanding they persisted and left of to participate with the Church in all his ministration therin . 3. We entreated them that they would not so walk , but to continew with vs as before , at least till we might eyther among our selves or by others have further help and dealing about this matter : but they would not . Wherevpon they were for this leaving of communion with the Church , together with other causes which he noteth not , cast out : and some of them a good while synce vpon their repentance received in againe .

For that which he saith of not answering the reasons in writing , note these things : 1. We were absent from the Church , when we wrote the reasons aforesaid in a letter sent hither : but now were here present with the Church to speak mouth to mouth with any that did or should make question thereabout . 2. We also signified , that if it were so that we were absent , having like occasion as before , we would then write as before we had done : but being now present to speak and reason together , we thought it best so to do . Not to speak any thing now of the persons and their dealing that would have it otherwise . 3. Yet when the matter was still vrged , we further advised & agreed about it , of some particular circumstances or cautions to be observed therin : Which were set down in writing , and given to the ruling Elders , for any that would come to read or reason thereabout : And vpon occasion we gave the same also in writing to the Eldership of the Dutch Church here . These things T. White himself knoweth , and heretofore thought it sufficient to satisfy any that were reasonable : howsoever now he write thereof .

And where he saith we would not suffer the reasons to be read in our . meeting , being requested there vnto : sometimes in deed we did not suffer it , wishing the parties that were contrary minded vnto vs to shew their reasons out of the word of God ( whether they were those conteyned in that writing or any other ) and so to reason from that ground , which is the onely rule of our faith : sometimes also for the more satisfying of all , they were both read and reasoned of in our publik meeting .

As for playing Sathans part , let him apply it to himself , who hath heretofore both by word and writing out of the Scriptures approved our cause against the Antichristian estate of the Church of England , and having now left and oppugning it , yet hath not , ( nor ever can ) vse as good meanes to disprove it , and to approve the estate of that Church whither he is returned : With whom also it is so common throughout his book , to obiect against vs things very false , & to conceale or deprave the things he knoweth to be good : and all this to calumniate the truth and vs that wi●nesse it before the world .

For that which he annexeth of Mr Ad. such as were here present , do neyther remember it , nor think it to be true : howsoever he affirme it : And if it had so bene , yet who knoweth not that alteration of practise doth vsually follow alteration of judgement ? And if in other cases , why not in this also ?

Finally we do here know but in part : & are subiect to erre both in our judgment and in our walking : as I deny not but in these things thus much vrged vpon vs we may have done . Yet our desire hath bene and I trust shal be alway to try all things by the word of God , and to keep that which is good .

4. The fourth instance is of W.A. cast out for recalling a former Schisme , spoken of a little before in his first instance . Whatsoever W.A. now say , the Church heard and see what then he spake & did . If he do still repent of that Schisme , standing to the acknowledgement he made , that matter is soone ended . To the writing of Th. White and others about this matter , this answer was given by the Elders ( which the messengers can testify ) that it being about excomunication , it was a matter which concerned the whole body of the Church , and therefore if they had any thing to say thereabout , they should come to the Church at our publick meeting , and there they should have an answer . But thither came they not . So themselves kept back an answer from themselves . And still Th. White keepeth on his course to write falselie . What the schisme here spoken of was & whereabout , see before , pag. 65.

As for appealing , seing it is from an inferior Iudge to a superiour , we hold it Antichristian to enterteyne or admit of such appeales from one Church to another , because Christ the Lord hath given like & equall power & authority to all his Churches on the earth . Yet notwithstanding may and ought one Church to help another , by any good meanes they can , as there is occasion . But what is this to the appealing and tryall whereof he speaketh , when such as be excommunicated by this Church , would have their matters and the like submitted to the Dutch and French Churches here , or any other els where ? For which themselves could not by the word of God shew any warrant : And against which we had & have these reasons following . 1. That the Iudge which God hath ordeyned in these cases , is to be submitted vnto , and not to any other , Deut. 17.8.9.10.11.12 . 2. That the highest Iudge ordeyned now of the Lord for all sinners by Ecclesiasticall censure , is the Church , even that particular Church whereof the sinner is a member , Mat. 18.17 . with 1 Cor. 5.4.5.12.13 . 3. That all Churches of Christ haue equall power , and are not one over another , but have Christ himself over all , and in middest of all , Rev. 1.13 . & 2.1 . And therefore in vrging our Church to submit to another Church , they sought to draw it into Antichristian bondage , which we might by no meanes yeeld vnto , Gal. 5.1 . Rev. 14.9.12 . 4. The sinne and sinner being bound in heaven ▪ how may the cause be submitted to men on earth ? Mat. 18.18 . 5. If the censures of the Church , then also other doctrines of the Gospell & our faith in Christ , might aswell by the same ground be brought to like submission . 6. It is contrary also to the Confession of our faith published , Artic. 24.25 . 7. And this way there would be no end of strife : for if the two Churches disagreed , a third & higher must be sought vnto by like reason ; and if yet they agreed not , an higher then that : and thus might the vsurped Supremacy of the Romish Church and Pope grow and be established . 8. Finally if we might & would assent , yet these Dutch & French Churches do not heare any such matters ; but they are heard and handled onely by the Eldership ( by them erroneously put in place of the whol● Church ) as we have had experience vpon other occasions .

Now though we might not ( for these and like reasons ) submit as they required , yet we also signifyed that if these Churches or Ministers , or any els whosoever , could shew vs by the word of God to have faulted in any thing , we were willing and ready to heare them . These are our reasons and this is our refusall and walking in such cases . Which this White knoweth full well , and therefore his sinne is the greater , to write and deale notwithstanding as he doth .

5. The fift instance , which is about receiving the penitent offenders in cases of adultery , is spoken of before , pag. 32.33 . To which I refer the Reader : & will now onely aske of him , whether he would have any to reteyne vnrepentant adulterers and adulteresses , and so to partake in their sinne ? It may be some of his Lords the Prelates can quickly take him out as bad lessons as this : specially he being so apt a scholler for such Maisters . Yet may not we reteyne such members in our Church . And if we should , what exclamations would he make against vs , as in deed justly he might ? Here therefore mark the wickednes of this Impe of Sathan , common to him with such enemies of the truth and Church . If any stand from and against the Church , be they never so lewd & wicked , he is ready to favour & partake with them . But if any continue with the Church , though they repent of their sinnes as David , he will not cease to maligne and abuse them , yea & to defame the whole Church therby , as if it were a company of adulterers &c. as before in his book hath appeared .

6. The sixt instance is of his owne wife , Rose White , excommunicated for two things , though he mention but one : 1. First for not bringing her childe to baptisme ; 2. For falling from the truth which she had professed with vs , to the corruptions of the Dutch Church here where she ioyned her self a member . And the man he speaketh of , her husband , is himself , matches one for another .

For the abuses which he speaketh of , to give an instance , was not one of them our observing of that rule Mat. 18.15.16.17 . in such maner as we do ? For which when he had reproved the Church , and was after a weeks respi●e called vpon for his proof , he was glad openly in the Church to say he was vnprovided : and came no more to our meetings to prove it at any tyme afterward . Yet such is his face as he will boast of his reproving abuses amongst vs .

Towching his wives alleadging of the example of Timothees mother that did not circumcise him , and no other cause mentioned but that his ●ather was a Grecian , he saith she could get no answer ; whereas the whole congregation then present knoweth how many things were answered about it , & sundry reasons vsed about this case of not bringing her child to Baptisme , vpon her husbands forbidding : As ,

That the covenant of grace made with the Church in Christ , was without respect of persons or sexe , there being in him neyther male nor female , Gal. 3.28 . and therefore though the father should refuse or neglect , the mother hath right and ought to present .

That she might not deprive her seed of the sacrament of Baptisme vpon her husbands will , any more then her self of the Lords supper if he should forbid her , because that by the believing woman the children are clean , as well as by the believing man . 1 Cor. 7. ●4 . & she now being of our church & her husband not , we were to call vpon her for performance of her duty .

That baptisme was a signe of incorporating into Christ , and salvation by his death and resurrection , so as her neglect of baptising her child could not but be iniurious both to Christ and it .

When these & the like perswasions were vsed vnto her , and she had nothing to answer but asked why then Timothees mother did not circumcise her child , our Teacher ( as he remembreth ) answered that the cause was not certainly knowen , for it was not expressed in the scripture : If she were living and present we would demaund of her self , but she is now dead and gone , wherefore it were hard for vs to determine of the cause , but this Ro. White was living and present & must give account of her own wayes : That we must not walk by example but by law of God : for even the most righteous may offend , & Moses himself faulted in neglecting the circumcising of his sonne . Exod 4. And if Timothees mother being a Iewesse did mary with a Gentile an infidel , who therefore would not suffer her to circumcise her sonne , & she obeyed him ; that such mariages were forbidden of God and vnlawfull : And then she sinning in marying with him , why might she not also sin in keeping her child vncircumcised for him , if that were the cause as now this woman pretended ? Wherefore she was put in minde rather of the examples of other good women , as Abigail , 1 Sam. 25. the elect Lady . 2 Ioh. Epist. also of some spoken of in the Machabees ( though that book be Apocrypha ) which lost their liues for causing their children to be circum●ised . 1 Mach. 1.63 . 2 Mach. 6.10 . It was also demaunded by some of vs , how it could be shewed otherwise but that Timothe●s mother might be ‡ ‡ 2 Tim. 1.5 . and 3.14.15 . and 1 Tim. 4.6.12 . with Act. 16. & 17. & 18. & 19. & 20. chap. in the faith of the Gospell before he was born and he in that respect might be vncircumcised ▪ Also , whether the women in Noahs tyme should have refused to enter into the Arke , or the women of Israell in Moses tyme to go themselves with their childen through the red sea , if their husbands had bene against it ? Both which were types and resemblances of our baptisme , as the Scripture sheweth , 1 Cor. 10.1.2 . 1 Pet. 3.20.21 .

These and the like reasons being then shewed and spoken of , and now vpon this occasion thus noted downe , let the Reader here consider of this mans dealing and his wives , and accordingly esteem thereof as now he findeth it to be . His scoffing at the Teacher of our Church , not onely for his words then vsed , but even at the office it self which he executeth ( and therein at the † † Ephe. 4.11 . Rom. 12.7 . ordinance of Christ ) hurteth not him nor vs , but encreaseth this skorners sinne & judgement vpon his owne head .

For that which he saith of myself , I did in deed with hold my consent towching the first cause of her excommunication about the childes baptizing : making some doubt about the case aforesaid , partly in respect of the husbands authority over his family , partly because of the objections arising about the case & Scriptures alledged out of Act. 16.3 . &c. Yet notwithstanding I gave my consent as touching the second cause thereof , for her falling from the truth to their corruptions here : And that so , as I said also I was willing for it to pronounce the sentence my self , if the Church should so appoint . By which compared with his writing may appeare , how still he keepeth on his woonted course against vs , & hath himself drawen fourth this vnfolding of his evill dealing and his wives too .

For the others of whom he speaketh ( viz , Mrs Sl. Goodw. Ch. & R. M. ) they were excommunicated for other causes then he hath noted downe . And it is not our maner to cast out any for difference of iudgement in such cases , if they be content notwithstanding to walk peaceably with the Church , and to cary themselves towards the excommunicates as they should by the word ●f God . But if they joyne with them in their evill , as some of these more specially did with his wife , then are they also for so doing justly subiect to the ●ame censure with them , as in this case likewise came to passe .

That which he speaketh of the Magistrate is false : he did not forbid , but perswaded vs not to do it . Though if he had or should forbid vs any thing which God requireth at our hands , we have learned to obey God rather then man : A●t. 5.29 . As we did then answer him , that what we did , we would alwayes be ready to approue by the word of God . And now by that which hath bene said , let the Reader judge whether this fellowes hard forehead verify not the Oratours saying , He that 〈◊〉 passeth the bounds of modestie , becommeth imp●dent out of measure .

Excommunication we vse as the holy ordinaunce of God , to recover the parties that have sinned ( if so it be his will ) and to keep the Church from the leaven of their wickednes . If we did it not , we should dishonour God , and be accessary to their evill . But observing it , we vse the remedie which Christ hath given vs , for their good : and if it work not so in them , then is their destruction the more iust vpon their heads , and we are cleare . Neyther doth the long suffring spirit of meeknes hinder but that due execution of the Lords judgement vpon obstinate sinners be inflicted . And being so done , neyther will this mans cursing vs for good hurt vs , not his blessing of himself & others in evill help them . Therefore to his many curses denounced against vs , I will give no other answer , but say with Salomon , Prov. 26.2 The curse causeles shall not come , but fly away as a birde : and returne vpon him that allegation out of the Prophet , As he loved cursing , Psal. 109.17.18 . so shall it come vnto him , and as he loved not blessing , so shall it ●e farre from him : and as he clothed himself with cursing like a garment , so shall it come into his bowels like water , & like oyle into his bones . And for his blessing of himself and others in evill , I will referre him to that denuntiation of Moses against every such one , as when he heareth the wordes of the curse , yet blesseth himself in his heart , saying , I shall have peace , although I walk according to the stubburnes of mine owne heart , 〈◊〉 adding drunkennes to thirst : The Lord will not be mercifull vnto him , but then the wrath of the Lord and his ielousy shall smoke against that man , & every curse that is written in the book of the Law shall light vpon him , and the Lord shall put out his name from vnder heaven , and the Lord shall separate him vnto evill out of all the tribes of Israell , according vnto all the curse● of the covenaunt , that 〈◊〉 written in the book of the Law . Deut. 29. ●9 . 20.21 .

For that which he speak●th of our Tents , it is to be noted that this man himself desiring heretofore to partake with vs in the Lords supper , did in our publick meeting compare our and all true Churches to the Tents of Shem , & the assemblies of the Church of England ( whither now he is returned ) to the Tents of Corah , Dathan , & Abiram . What remayneth therefore but that according to the words of his owne mouth and course of his own walking he be left to the Lord the iealous God that judged Corah & his company ? Numb. 16. Who also is the God of Shem , & will performe to the sonnes of Iapheth whom he perswadeth to dwell in Shems tents , according to his promise made of old to Abraham sonne of Shem , Gen. 9.29.27 . & Father of the faithfull of all nations , saying , I will blesse them that blesse thee , and curse them that curse thee . Gen. 12.3 .

For that which he annexeth about fatherles children , himself knoweth we approve no such dealing . And some of the persons to whom they were comitted are departed this life . The living belike could not serve his turne : but he will digge into the graves of the dead . who cannot answer for themselves . Or if he meane of any that are alive , why gave he not ( after his maner ) some knowledg who they be ? Would he not that the matter should have ben considered and answer made accordingly ? Or would he that we should speake what we heare concerning a fatherles child . who was long since with that woman who is now this Whites wife , and ran away from her : who knoweth best her self how she vsed her ?

For our selues we mislike all hard and evill vsage of any , much more savage and cruell dealing to fatherles children , who ought most of all to be pityed and holpen . If any such have more specially felt their part of our common troubles and poverty , why will he not consider his Lords the Prelates their savage and cruell dealing with vs , who have made many poore orphanes and widowes among vs , besides many other great calamities brought vpon vs by their meanes ? Of which to begin to speak were to enter into an Ocean sea : so many and great they are ▪ and not vnknowen to this White himself : howsoever he can like now to sayle in that sea , where putting away a good conscience , he hath concerning the faith made shipwrack .

For that which he saith of W.C. the man himself affirmeth that be spake not these words at all which he hath printed of him : and that he told this Whites wife before the book was published , and spake it synce to his owne face , that it is a lye . Some words he confesseth he spake which were evill : but those also spoken by him about a yeare before he ioyned to the Church , as himself testifyeth . Yet White obiecteth his speach as the confession of our own members , affirming also what he hath printed to be spoken before many witnesses . Which if it were , yet till we should know it , & after knowledg & dealing with him find him obstinate in such evill , how could we but have him still a member among vs ? But if such speaches , yea or publick writings , of the members of the Church of England would content men , as White will with this content himself , how easy were it for his one to to produce a thousand , and none of them perverted neyther ?

The conclusion of his Libell , is like the rest . The censures of Christ in his Church , he blasphemously calleth our fond excommunications . which † † Whites Discov . p. 24. before in like manner he termed our Buls of excommunications . Suerly God that will not hold him guiltles that taketh his Name in vaine , will never suffer such prophanation of his Name and ordinance to go in vaine . Such de●iding and despising of the Lord and his ordinances is fearfull . And a fearfull thing it is to fall into the hands of the living God . All his Lords the Prelates authority and authorizing of his book to be published ( as himself alledged here before the Magistrates ) will not help him before the Lord , Prov. 11.21 . who is a consuming fier . From whom what can he or any so persisting look for els , but to be cast out from his presence , and to have their portion among the cursed to heare that fearfull sentence , Go ye cursed into everlasting fier , which is prepared for the Divell and his Angels . Mat. 25.41 .

And thus hath this Esau shewed himself to be one of those prophane , of whom he speaketh here , hardened in his sinne and prophanenes , and of which also he spake in the Preface at the beginning of his book : That in him might be seen the truth of that which Salomon saith , Eccles. 10.12.13 . The lippes of a foole devoure himself : The beginning of the words of his mouth is foolishnes , and the latter end of his mouth is wicked madnes : & that thus also it might appeare , how far he is from being of the Israel of God , that follow peace and holynes , without which no man shall see the Lord . Heb. 12.14 .

TOwching his postscript about T. C. the man himself saith he is falsely traduced by him , as he was likewise accused by some other here to Magistrates for the same thing , who could not prove it against him , when the matter came to be examined . And see here still the bad dealing of this man , who publisheth his name in this manner to the world , onely vpon an hear-say , not knowing whether the thing were true or false , and then also when he heard withall that he had greatly bewayled his sinne , and had not afterward given him any iust or needfull cause so to do . For the casting of him out , it was thought meet and good , considering his former dealing & the present case , so to proceed : yet not without difference of judgment in some of vs thereabout . But he was shortly after received in againe , being repentant for his sinne . Now here let the Reader observe , how this man which blameth others for not forgiving of penitent sinners , hath not ceased throughout his book to publish and object the sinnes of such against the whole Church and the parties themselves : besides the manifold falsehoods and blasphemies into which also he is ●un . But his madnes is become manifest to men , and his judgement sleepeth not with God : who will remember and reward him according to his workes . Nehem. 6.14 . 2 Tim. 4.14 .

A note of the particulars ( spoken of before , pag. 62. ) wherein we differ from the Dutch and French Churches of this city , & wherabout we have had dealing with such of their Ministers as by the rest of their Eldership were deputed therevnto .

1. THat the estate of the Dutch Church of Amst. is such , as being one , yet it meeteth in three severall places : whereby it commeth to passe that the whole Church cannot come together in one : the Ministers cannot together with the flock sanctify the Lords day : the presence of the members of the Church cannot certainly be knowen : and finally , no publick action , whether excommunication or any other , can rightly be performed . Which is contrary to these Scriptures , 1 Cor. 12.27 . & 11.20 , 23. Math. 18 , 17. with 1 Cor. 5 , 4. Act. 6.2 , 5. Numb. 8.9 . Act. 20.28 .

2. They baptize the seed of them who are no members of any visible Church : of whom moreover they haue not care as of members , neyther admit their parents to the Lords Supper . Gen. 17.7 , 9 , 10 , 11. 1 Cor. 7.14 . Exod. 12.48 . with 2 Chron. 30.6 . &c. Numb. 9.13 . Hos. 2.2.4 . with Rev. 17.1 . Ezech. 16.59 . &c.

3. In the publick worship of God , they have devised & vse an other forme of prayer , besides that which Christ our Lord hath prescribed Mat. 6. reading out of a book certaine prayers invented and imposed by man . Exod. 20.4.5 . and 30.9 . with Psal. 141.2 . and Rev. 8.3 . Lev. 10.1 . Esa. 29.13 . with Math. 15.9 . Rom. 8.26 . Eph. 4.8 . 1 Pet. 2.5 .

4. That rule and commaundement of Christ , Mat. 18.15.16.17 . they neither obserue nor suffer rightly to be observed among them .

5. They worship God in the Idol-temples of Antichrist . Exod. 20.4 . with Deut. 12.2.3 . 2 18.11.12 &c.

6 The Ministers have their set maintenance after an other maner then Christ hath ordeined , 1 Cor. 9.14 . And that also such , as by which any Ministery at all , whether popish or other whatsoever , might be mainteyned .

7. Their Elders chaunge yearely , and do not continew in their office according to the doctrine of the Apostles and practise of the primitive Churches . Rom. 12.4.5.6.7.8 . 1 Cor. 12.11.12 . &c. Act 20.17.28 . 1 5.1.2 . 3.4 . See also Numb. 8.24 . &c.

8. They celebrate Mariage in the Church , as if it were a part of the Ecclesiasticall administration , whereas it is in the nature of it meerly civill . Ruth . 4. chap. Heb. 13.4 . 1 Cor. 7.2 .

9. They vse a new censure of Suspension , which Christ hath not appointed . Math. 28.20 . Gal. 3.15 . 2 Tim. 3.16.17 .

10. They observe dayes and tymes , consecrating certyan dayes in the yeare , to the Nativity , Resurrection , Ascension of Christ , &c. Exod. 20. Commaundement , 2. & 4. Rev. 1.10 . 1 Cor. 10.1 . ● . Act. 20.7 . Col. 2.16.17 . Esa. 66.23 . Gal. 4.10.11 .

11. They receive vnrepentant excommunicates , to be members of their Church : which by this meanes becommeth one body with such as be delivered vnto Sathan . 1 Cor. 5.5 . 1 Tim. 1.20 .

About this matter we had dealing with them divers tymes heretofore . And we desired that knowledg thereof might by themselves be given to the whole body of their Church , or that they would take order that it might be done by vs . But they refused both . Whereabout we had afterward some further dealing with them . In which time , divers messages and answers passed between vs . Which we had thought here to have inserted : but now think good for the present to forbeare them : Wishing rather that they might be buried among themselves by amendement hereafter , then that we should be constreyned eyther by themselves or others ( as we are already too much provoked ) to publish them to the world , for the further manifestation and clearing of our cause and maner of dealing with them .

The cautions ( spoken of before , pag. 34. & 68. ) concerning the question following .

Question . Whether such as sometimes have fallen from the truth , may afterward by the Church be taken into office .

Answer . We take it not to be meet , without these and the like cautious : viz.

FIrst that there be due consideration had both of the nature of the thing , and of the quality of the persons , and also of the estate of the Church .

For the nature of the thing , 1. Whether it be from the trueth to the Idolatry of the heathen , or to some false Christian worship : And here further , whether to the Papists , Anabaptists , Lutherans , or other Protestants professing reformation in sundry things , & those of great moment &c. 2. Whether at the first appearing & receiving of the truth , or when the adversaries haue ben soundly & throughly convinced . 3. Whether in dispersion and absence from the Church , or living and remayning with it . 4. Whether drawen , circumvented , & overcome by others ( as Aharon , and some of the Galatians , Exod. 32.1.23.35 . Gal. 1.6 . ) or drawing , intising & seducing of others ( as they of whom we read Ezech. 44.12 . Deut. 13.5.6.12.13 . ) Such as now also be they which publish writings against the trueth , the Church , &c. 5. Whether they did voluntarily yeeld of themselves , or fainted being broken with troubles and persecutions . 6. Whether they joyned themselves as members , or were present onely at their worship . 7 , Whether ( being ioyned as members ) they did partake onely , or did administer also and execute their worship themselves . 8. Whether slipping aside for a tyme through infirmity , or falling away long & resisting the meanes offred for their recovery , or labouring ( what they could ) to chaunge or abolish the true religion & worship of God . 9. Lastly , whether before or after the Church hath discussed and agreed what to do in this matter .

For the quality of the persons , 1. Whether they were in office before or not . 2. Whether they be fit for office , or not . Els what blot should they beare in this behalf who for their sundry defects are altogether vnfit , & therefore never to be taken into office , though they never had fallen from the trueth ? As they of Aharons seed , who had a blemish in their body , might never be Priests , though they did neuer fall to Idolatry . Lev. 21.17 . &c.

For the estate of the Church , 1. Whether it were but newly and weakly entred into the faith and way of Christ , or had ben long and well established therein . 2. Whether as yet it were vnsetled and tossed hither and thither , to and fro , or were setled and well together . 3. Whether it haue great and present need of some to be taken into office . 4. Whether it have others in all respects , as fit to be chosen . As Paul when he refused Iohn Mark , had Silas , whome he chose to take with him , Act. 15.25.26.27.32.38.40 .

Secondly , that the Church do well know or trie such as have so fallen , afore they do afterward entertayn them into office . As Paul may be noted to haue done with Mark , whom yet Barnabas did sooner receive , as being his sisters sonne , well knowen vnto him before . Col. 4.10 . & 2 Tim. 4.11 . with Act. 15.38.39 .

Finally , that none be contentious , but that all of vs duly considering the former cautions and the like , we take the fittest whom God in this estate of the Church doth offer , endeavouring to keep the vnity of the spirit in the bond of peace , that we may with love and comfort proceed in that wherevnto we are come : to the prayse of God , and to the further building & vpholding of the whole Church & of * * Aswell those that have fallen as the rest . all the members thereof in the trueth of the Gospell of Iesus Christ . 1 Cor. 11.16 . Ephe. 4.2.3 . Phil. 3.15.16 . Gal. 6.16 .

This for the present , so to be mynded & observed , as if others shall at any tyme shew vs better from the word of God , we be alway ready to receive it in the Lord .

An Answer to the Reasons alledged to prove the vse of the Lords prayer as a Prayer .
Objection . 1.

AN expresse commaundement neither contrary to nature , nor analogie of Faith , and agreable also to the drift and tenour of the place , ought litterally to be vnderstood and obeyed .

But this Math. 6.9 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. And Luk. 11.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , say , Our Father , &c. is such an expresse commaundement &c. Ergo It is also so to be vnderstood and vsed .

Answer .

1. This reason was alledged before : Where see what is answered vnto it . pag. 30.

2. The Assumption or second part of the reason is but barely affirmed , not proved at all .

3. How is it agreable to the nature of prayer and analogy of faith , that one man or Church at any time should so pray , as asking all things that ever any in the world haue needed or shall need vpon any occasion whatsoever ? Or that we now should offer such prayer and worship vnto God , as we cannot have assurance by the Scriptures , that ever the Apostles or other Christians approved of God did so vse at any time ? Or to keep alwayes a set forme of words for our prayer to God ?

4. How is it agreable to the drift and tenour of the place , that Christ did so commaund it to be vsed as he pretendeth ? 1. For then it should be sinne to pray at any time , and not to say it , seing Christ hath thus given his commaundement concerning it , Luk. 11.2 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . &c. When ye pray , say , Our father &c. 2. And thus also we should be bound to say it twise over together at everie time we vse it : because Mathew and Luke in some words and clauses recorded it diversly : And who can say we ought to vse the words of the one more then of the other ? 3. But both * * Mat. 6.9 . the commaundement it self , and the circumstances about it noted in the Evangelists , shew it to be given for a rule of prayer ; and therefore so to vse it , is that which is agreable to the tenour and drift of the place : As we haue heretofore shewed in ‡ ‡ Apologie . Discovery . Questions . Answ: to Mr H. &c. divers Treatises yet vnanswered .

5. By literall vnderstanding of Christs words in the same sermon , do the Anabaptists gather , that it is vnlawfull for Christians to take an oth , to go to warre , to beare Magistracy &c. pleading the expresse words and commaundement of Christ . Math. 5.34.39 . &c. with many other pretences which they have thereabout . Shall we therefore admit of their errors , or vnderstand those Scriptures , as they would have vs ? Not to speak of other as expresse speaches , or any collections thereabout : As Mat. 6.17 . Ioh. 13.5.12.14.15 .

Objection . 2.

2. If Christ had taught onely to pray to this effect , then had he taught nothing but that which Iohns Disciples & all the faithfull practised before : for the Prayers of the Saints , as of Salomon , Nehemiah , Daniel , were to that effect before .

Answer .

1. What if all this be graunted ? What would follow therevpon ? Doth not christ in the same sermon of his , teach the very same things that Moses in effect had taught before ? But now by reason of the false gloses of the Pharisees , he explaned them , according to their true meaning . Math. 5.17 . &c.

2. In like maner there being great abuse about prayer , as is particularlie noted by Mathew , Christ sheweth them how to vse it aright . Math. 6.5.6.7 . &c.

3. If he meane , that the prayers of the holy men in former tymes were of such things as here be comprised , it is true , that they then prayed to this effect : But if he meane that they prayed with like intendement and in like manner as Christ now taught the Apostles and Christians hereafter to do , he is deceived . For in their prayers they intended and looked at Christ to come , they prayed that God would send him according to his promise , that he might performe the things spoken concerning him , &c. But now Christ directed all hereafter to pray in his Name , as being come and exhibited according to the promises that went before concerning him . Ioh. 14.13.14 . & 16.23.24 .

4. The purpose of Christ in giving this forme of Prayer , was not onely to teach to pray to this effect , but to give direction also concerning all other things that are needfull to be knowen and observed in the right vse of prayer . As in other books already published we have shewed in divers particulars .

Objection . 3.

Whatsoever Scripture hath in every respect the forme of prayer , that is ●ot alone matter of Doctrine , but hath bene vsed also as Prayer .

But this Scripture Math. 6.9 . hath in every respect the forme of prayer : as , Our Father , give vs , leade vs , and amen , annexed in the end : ergo . And in deed how can they tell , which were prayers and which not , if not by their forme of Petition ? whereby they are distinguished from Doctrines , and rules proposed in an other forme , as Mat. 7.7 . & 21.22 . 1 Ioh. 5.14 .

Answer .

1. The Proposition or first part of the reason needeth proof : if he speak of the vse of the very words , as they are set downe . But if he speak onely of praying for such things to such end and in such maner as is recorded , then we graunt it : and he speaketh nothing against vs , but fighteth with his owne shadow .

2. For some instances herein , let these Scriptures be considered , Ier. 31.7 . Hos. 14.3.4 . Ioel. 2.17 . which haue in every respect the forme of prayer , See also Iob 22.17 . Esa. 44.17 . Ier. 2.27 . Hab. 2.19 . and yet were given to be directions of the matter and maner of the prayers which then they should make , and not to prescribe them the very words which they should vse . As likewise in this particular of Mat. 6.9 — 13. compared with Luk. 11.2.3 , 4.

3. For the Assumption or second part of the reason , that it is propounded in forme of prayer , see the answer before : pag. 31. And let them now at length tell vs , if it were so to be vsed as they say , whether we should follow Mathew or Luke therein , and whether we should at the end thereof vse the conclusion , and say Amen , or not : seing Mathew hath it so , and Luke not .

4. The very propounding of it in forme of Petition conteyneth in it great and needfull Doctrine for the right vse of Prayer . Of which also see before , pag , 31.

5 The Scriptures and rules of Prayer here mentioned by himself ( Mat. 7.7 . and 21.22 . 1 Ioh. 5.14 . ) shew that neither Christ intended , nor the Apostles vnderstood it so , that those very words ( as they are set downe ) should be our prayer vnto God . For which observe these clauses , Aske , seek , knock : As a sonne asketh of h●● father bread , or fish &c. Mat. 7.7 — 11. Whatsoever ye aske , &c. Mat. 21.22 . If we aske any thing according to his will &c. 1 Ioh. 5.14 . Thincketh he , when Christ commended vnto vs the needfull , carefull , and fervent vse of prayer saying , Aske , seek , knock &c. that his meaning was , Get by rote and say over , Our father which art in heaven , &c. Or is the saying of these words , prayer to God , as when a child being hungry commeth to his father and asketh bread , or having bread asketh fish or other food according to his need ? Or why did Christ vse such a generall clause , Whatsoever ye aske : and Iohn , If we aske any thing according to his will &c. if they had meant we should for our prayer vse that forme spoken of , wherein they knew are conteyned all things that can possibly be asked according to the will of God ? Or should we therefore vse these words onely for our prayers , and no other at all ? But of this question we have written other where already : Which may suffice , till we be answered .

Objection . 4.

4. In a duty to be vsed of all , the holy Ghost is playne : but if those very words are not to be vsed as Prayer , no Christian for 1500. year●s & more , did ever vnderstand our Lords meaning .

Answer .

1 Salomon answereth , relating the words of Christ , that they are all plaine to him that will vnderstand , and streight to them that will find knowleledge . Prov. 8.9 .

2. In the duties ●o be vsed of all , about the Sacraments , &c. the holy Ghost is plaine : yet have Christians swarved from our Lords meaning therabout , as long since as he speaketh of : yea even in the Apostles times they began in divers things to go astray therefrom , 1 Cor. 11.20 . &c. as any that is acquainted with the Scriptures may perceive .

3. If erroneous pleading from former times , without scripture , were proof sufficient , how many and great errors might be pleaded for ? As the Antichristians do , for a multitude of their heresies and abhominations , which I will not stand here to particulate .

4. See also what is answered before , when to like purpose he alledged Tertullians testimonie , pag. 23. &c.

Exception . 1.

But they say that the Apostles never vsed those very words in prayer . I answer :

1. An expresse commaundement is warrant sufficient without example .

Answer .

He taketh for graunted that which he should prove , namely , that there is an expresse commaundement so to vse it as he pretendeth . Of which point we haue spoken before . And let the Reader observe , how he cannot shew by any Scripture at all , that the Apostles vsed those words for their prayer at any time . Neyther can he deny , but they vnderstood it aright , and prayed according to the true meaning thereof .

Exception . 2.

2. There is no example in the whole book of Gen. of the observation of the Sabaoth for 2369. yeares space after the institution of it . Gen. 2. Neither to come nearer , is there any example of baptising , in the name of the Father , Sonne , and holy Ghost , yet is the commaundement of Christ sufficient warrant so to do . Compare Math. 28.19 . with Act. 10.48 . & 19.5 .

Answer .

What a reason is this ? As if we thought nothing were observed of old , whereof there is not mention in the history ; or as if no difference were to be put in the vnderstanding of the Scriptures , but that if one be vnderstood litterally , then must all other likewise . He might aswell have told vs , we read not in the Scriptures that Methuselah did ever eat any meat , and yet lived 969 yeares , Gen. 5. the longest of any that are mentioned in the storie . And for the Apostles and others at that time administring Baptisme , how plaine is it in the Scriptures cited by himself , that they baptised in the Name of the Lord , as they were appointed ? If he could shew but in generall termes , that the Apostles at any time when they prayed , sayd over the Lords prayer : though it be not written in particular that they said , Our father which art in heaven &c. there were some proportion in his maner of reason , which now is not .

Besides , the Apostles and Evangelists themselves recording the institution and vse of the Lords supper , observe not the same words alike , yet all of them agree in the same matter and substance ? Mat. 26.26.27.28 . Mark . 14.22.23.24 . Luk. 22.19.20 . 1 Cor. 11.24.25 . And why should we not think likewise of their administration of Baptism● , that it was according to th● commaundement of Christ , though the same particular words be not rehearsed ? Or how can any make question of it , when it is recorded that they baptised ( not in their owne name , but ) in the Name of the Lord : Act. 2 , 38.41 . & 10.48 . Rom. 6 , 3. 1 Cor. 1.13.15 . Gal. 3.27 . with Mat. 28.19 . And so by their example have taught vs how to vnderstand and vs● these things aright ?

Exception . 3.

3. It is the Anabaptists reasoning against childrens baptisme , asking for an example , when otherwise there is sufficient warrant so to do : yet are their Pretences as good or better then Mr Iohnsons in refusing obedience to our Lords commaundement for want of an example .

Answer .

A childish collection from the Anabaptists errour about children● baptisme . How often shall we speak it , that other sufficient warrant from the Scriptures , is as good as a thousand examples ? And why will he needs shew himself to be like the Anabaptists : who would bring in a worship of God , for which there cannot be shewed sufficient warrant eyther by precept , or by example , or sound collection from the Scriptures ; and so by consequence in tyme deprive the Church of that true worship of God which we are taught both by commaundement and by example and by vnanswerable reasons drawen out of the word of God ? Wherein the very experience of former tymes so extreemly corrupted in this exercise of prayer , might and ought to teach vs to be more carefull .

For administring the seale of Gods covenant , and sacrament of i●itiation , & consequently of Baptisme , vnto children being the seed of the faithfull , we have both precept , example , and vndeniable reasons out of the word of God : which I will not here stand to relate . If our reasons towching the vse of the forme of Prayer spoken of , be so weak as he pretendeth , why did he not vndertake to answer them : but chuse rather to insist vpon the Pretences which now he hath purposelie published concerning that Argument ? And why will he never leave begging of that which he should prove , that i● 〈◊〉 our Lords commaundement to say over the very words prescribed , Mat. 6. ● Luk 11. for our prayer vnto God ?

Exception . 4.

4. The Prayers mencioned in the new Testament , are such as 〈◊〉 powred forth vpon speciall occasion , as Act. 4.24 . Ioh. 17.

Answer .

An absurd pretence : and such as wherein he is against himself , yeelding that the Lords prayer is not to be vsed vpon speciall occasion : or els he speaketh nothing to the purpose . And if it teach vs not how to pray vpon speciall occasion , how is it a perfect direction ? Or if it do , & yet be not in such case to be vsed , how plain is it that Christs meaning & the Apostles vnderstanding of it was such as not to prescribe it for our prayer , but for our instruction and direction therein ? Againe Christ saith , When ye pray , say , Our father &c. therefore also vpon speciall occasion , if that were his meaning , as he would perswade . Not to speak how themselves commonly hold and give out that it is such as is fit to be vsed at all tymes and for all occasions . So well they agree together .

But why doth he cite here , Ioh. 17. wherein Christs prayer a little before his death is mentioned ? Is it to shew that though Christ did not then vse it , praying vpon speciall occasion , yet at other times he did ? If this b● his intendement , who will believe him that Christ who had no sinn , could aske forgivenes of sinne , as in that forme of prayer is prescribed ? If this be not his meaning , to what purpose is that Scripture alledged , vnles it be to reason against himself , & to shew still his owne foolishnes ?

Exception . 5.

5 Let them shew me an example where ever the Apostles prayed before their Sermons ; if they can .

Answer .

1. Have they not read what is written of the Apostles , Act. 6.4 . how they said to the brethren at Ierusalem , Look ye out men whom we may appoint to this busines ( of the Deacons office ) : And we will give our selves continually to prayer and to the ministration of the word ? Nor how the Apostle Paul gave direction concerning publick prayer , when he wrote to the Churches and to Timothee about publik doctrine , whether it were in propheticall or ministeriall vse of the word of God . 1 Cor. 11.4 . and 14. chap. 1 Tim. 1. and 2. chap. Or when Paul taught Timothee that the food of the body is to be sanctified vnto vs by prayer , 2 Tim. 4.4.5 . should he not think likewise of the food of the soule ?

2. And what though the particular circumstance of time ( before , or after ) be not set down ? Or that the Apostles having to deale with severall sorts of persons & occasions , did diversly cary themselves according therevnto ?

3. Or doth it not ly vpon the Ministers in publik , to be aswell the mouth of the Church vnto God in prayer , as to be the mouth of God to the Church in doctrine ? Or should we think that the Apostles did not carefully performe the whole worke of the Ministery committed vnto them ?

4. Finally , let these men shew vs an example in the Apostles or Primitive Churches , where ever they said their prayers over by tote ; or vsed a book of Common prayer among them ; or read any prayers at all for their prayer to God ; or had Archbishops , Lordbishops , Archdeacons , Priests , Parsons , Vicars , &c. eyther for vse of prayer , or for any other service Ministery or government of the Churches of Christ .

Finis .
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