FIrst Mr. Sperin signified vnto me that he was sent by the Bishop of London to confer with me concerning certeine things that I was said to hold , Namely that there was no Church in England .

I answered that for the Bishop of London I had nothing to do with him , neither he with me ; what I hold concerning their Church of England the Bishhopps knew long agoe , & neuer as yet would grant either publicke or priuate conference , where the Booke of GOD might quietly decide the controuersies betwixt vs ; but they had ymprisoned me in close & most streight ymprisonment now two yeares & well nigh an half , besides manie more greeuous iniuries offred vnto vs , as publishing vs Heretikes , Schismatiks , Anabaptists , Recusants , turbulent , sedicious , & what not in their Pulpits , priuileged bookes , sparsed libells , accused vs for such vnto ou●… most honorable magistrates at publ●…cke Sessions &c. Therfore I had iust cause to suspect anie conferencc that he could send vnto me , considering his manifold mischeivous practises against the Gospell & true seruants of CHRIST continually .

Herevppon Mr. Sperin protested his comming to be in loue to conser brotherly & christianly with me , not vnto my harme or preiudice anie kinde of way , and began in some faint ●…ermes to def●…nd the B. of London to be learned , graue , wise &c.

I said that could not be , he was a grievous enemy vnto the trueth , to CHRIST , and his Saintes , now holding aboue 60. of them in sondry Prisons without cause , lawe , or conscience ; Y●…a I affirmed him to be an APOSTATA , a persecuter of that trueth he sometime gladly 〈◊〉 & defended , & therfore his name was grievous & hatefull vnto me ; and furder I demanded of Mr. Sperin his name , which being vnderstood , I willed him from henceforth to vse his owne n●…me vnto me , for so I would not denie anie kinde of conference at anie time , which was in my power to grant ; but I said that I merueled to see him come now in the BBs. name , because I had heard he had sometymes bene otherwise minded .

To this he answered that he euer thought reuerently of the Bishopps , both for their learning , as also because her Maiestie hath authorised them .

I shewed their vnlawfull ANTICHRISTIAN Beastlike power & authoritie , as also their barbarous hauock they exercised in the Church , confounding & subuerting all Gods ordinances , & setting vp their owne deuises in stead therof ; And therfore they that reuerence theis men call CHRIST execrable , & worship the beast .

Here Mr. Sperin obiected against me the place of IVDE , that I despised gouernment , & spake euill of them in authoritie .

If the things I haue spoken be true , or that their authoritie be not of God ( both which I affirme & will approue by the word of God ) then you greatly iniure both this Scripture & me .

Their authoritie is of God , in as much as it is of the Prince .

The Prince cannot make lawfull that which God forbiddeth , namely to haue & exercise both ecclesiasticall & ciuile authoritie , as this man doth from whom you come .

I iustifie not his ecclesiasticall authoritie , but that authoritie he hath from the Prince .

If he be a ciuile magistrate whie is he called a Bishop , & vsurpeth an ecclesiasticall function ?

May not ciuile magistrates be called Bishops ?

I neuer read that they were so in the new Testament , yet I acknowledg they are called Shepheards in EZEKIEL & MICAH , but this man we speake of was sometimes a Parson of a Towne , if not of more then one , then an Arch-Deacon , now a Lord B. which offices by their vse appeare , and by the lawes of our land are held to be ecclesiasticall .

Much is to be giuen to the Princes authoritie .

We will afterward speake of the Princes authoritie , let vs first enquire of theis their offices .

I will not here reason furder of them ; For there were manie in the windowes , & by this time was my keeper retorned with paper & ynke , which he was a litle before sent for .

I had forgotten to insert certeine speech we had concerning the Church : I told Mr. Sperin that I neu●…r deni●…d that CHRIST h●…d his Church in England , but that Church was s●…perate & gathered from the prophane of the land , & now in gr●…t p●…rsecution vnder the malignant Church . He then demanded of me what I thouht of thei●… parish assemblies ; I answered that as they stood in this confusion & Idolatrie , they could not be held the true e●…tablished Churches of CHRIST . Now the ynke & paper being brought Mr. Sperin set downe this Proposition .

The parish assemblies which haue preaching Ministers who for life and doctrine are vnreproueable , and which themselues pr●…fesse the true faith & Christian obedience , are Churches .

Hereunto I set downe this other Proposition .

Your parish assemblies as they generallie consist of all prophane , wicked &c. mingled togeather in one bodie , worshipping God after the deui●…es of men , s●…anding in subiection ●…o the An●…ichristian power & Courtes of the BBs. &c. though they haue a preaching Ministrie , yet are not the true established Churches of Christ .

I denied also his Proposition , Namely that there were anie such parishes which made such profession of faith & obedience , and had such a Minister as he spake of , which he endeuored to proue thus .

They are as lawfull Churches of Christ , as the assemblie of beleeuers in Corinth was a lawfull Church of Christ ; But tha●… assemblie was a lawfull Church of Christ 1. Corinth. 1. 2.

Your first Proposition is denied .

What soeuer was necessarie to the decerning of the Church of God in the assemblie of Corinth , is in our assemblies .

It is still denyed .

The profession of faith & obedience , ministrie & Sacraments , were the necessarie pointes wherby to discerne that Church , but theis we haue in as good or better maner then they .

It is not so with you , you haue not theis things in such maner as the Church of Corinth had .

I will insist vppon my Parish in milkstreet ; It maketh such profession of faith , hath such a ministrie of the Gosp●…ll &c.

It maketh not such profession , nor hath such a ministrie of the Gospell .

Some of the Church of Corinth erred in chief points o●… the faith , denying the resurrection &c. They erred in maners being gyuen to fornication , incest , oppression , Drunkennes , their ministrie were vaineglorious , mixing & teaching their doctrines with the words that mans wisedome affordeth , de●…iuering their Sacraments a●…ter a corrupt & euill maner &c. Yet for all theis faultes they were pronounced by the holy Gho●…t the Church of God ; But in my Parish in milkstreet we hold no such opinions or errors , we haue no such faultes either in life or maners , nor in our ministrie ; so ours is much more the Church of God .

It is veri●… preposterous to reason of the ministracyon of , & i●… the Church , before you haue proued your Pari●…h to be an established Church , which you see I deny , & require you to proue ; In all this you haue reasoned from a Church to no Church , & so no comparison betwixt them , nor sequell of your Argume●…t . The best Church that euer was or shal be whilest it consisteth of mortall men is daily subiect to manie errors , which faultes being shewed in the glasse of Gods word , it by & by washeth & purgeth them away in that fountaine which is opened to the howse of DAVID for s●…nne & vncleanenes ; sondrie of the Church of Corinth erred in manie of theis things , the whole Church in some , as in the abuse of both the Sacraments , the neglect of their ●…cclesiasticall cen●…ures ; But the Church of Corinth vppon the Apostles admonition by one letter repented , shewed great sorrow , & amended . But now for your Parish it consisteth of a confuse companie of prophane ; Atheists , couetous , glu●…tons , vaine , light , ignorant , & wicked people of al degrees & estates , of each sex●… & age , they being all generallie without the knowledg , faith , or feare of God , without care of this life or of the life to come ▪ to all which you indifferently administer & sell your Sacraments , delyuering them in a false maner not according to CHRISTS Testament ; Your whole ministrie & ministracyon is false & Antichristian ; Furder you haue neither the freedom to practise CHRISTS Testament , nor the power or will to redresse anie thing that is amisse emongst you , but e●…ther runne to the Antichristian power & Courtes of the Bishopps , or els continue obstinat & carelesse in your synnes . Thus you see no comparison anie way betwixt the Church of Corinth & your Parish .

I know the contrary to this , I both know & visit all the housholders & their families , & I admit not anie to the Sacraments which haue not knowledg & make true profession of faith .

I know this I haue said to be true , & that you haue & do admit some to your Sacraments which haue no such knowledge & make no such profession of faith .

What is true profession ?

Where faith & obedience are ioyned to the word of God .

They all make true profession & belelee●…e accordingly , who so doth not , I seperate him from the Sacraments .

Their vngodly life & false maner of worshipping of God shew , that they neither professe nor beleeue aright ; furder thi●… your maner of suspending or seperating , is as popish as the rest , euen the Instrument of that foolish Shepheard : where finde you in all CHRISTS Testament that one man may seperate anie alone ?

I do it with the consent of the people .

How should that be when they know not of it : Do no●… you yt by vertue of your Idole Seruice-booke , and by that power your Lord the Bishop alloweth you ? for CHRIST neuer gaue anie such censure as this suspencion ●…o his Church , or such power to anie one man to seperate anie from the Sacraments , which is not pronounced excommunicat .

PAVL to the Thessa●…ians willeth that such as are found disobedient should be noted with a letter , & his companie auoided that he might be ashamed .

You alledg not the text right , neither doth the Apostle there meane of Suspencion : It is wonderfull how you & som●… others that haue written of , & seemed to seeke reformation , dare thus apparantly innouate the Testament of CHRIST , by bringing in your deuises into the Church & putting them in stead of a Scepter into CHRISTS hand , making him to reigne by them , & exercise them ouer the soules of men .

By this time manie being gotten into the Parlour & more into the wyndowes , we thought it meete to remooue vp to the chamber where I lye : Being come thither & set downe , I willed Mr. Sperin to finde out & applie his place of the Thessal●…niās , which he did : It was 2. Thessal . 3. 14. & could serue nothing fo●… suspencion . The place not being furder enforced or stood vppon by Mr. Sperin , I called back againe to the point where we left , or rather where we began viz. That he should proue his Parish in milkstreet to be a true established Church of CHRIST ; And thervppon I set him downe this Argumen●… in writing .

In your Congregation in Milkstreet you haue no holy or orderly commu●…ion nor true Ministerie of the Gospel , no Christian power , freedome ●…r order , therfore no true established church of Christ .

Here Mr. Sperin affirmed againe his parishioners to be a faithfull , holie , free people , walking orderly according to the Gospel , & proued it thus ; because he doth administer the Sacraments to none but vnto such as he knoweth faithful , saying that he knoweth all the parishioners both men & women to be such , excep●… one houshold , neither did he admit anie of their 〈◊〉 to the Communion before they came to him , & fetch●… his token , at which time he examined them .

Were not all the parish of your Church , & did not you administer the Sacraments vnto them all & to their seede , euen the first day you were made their Pastor ? how could you then haue this assurance of their faith ?

They had before a faithfull & godly man to their P●…stor ( naming Mr. Paget ) by whom they were instructed , therfore there was no cause that I should doubt of their faithfulnes .

I wene that man still lyueth ; Thus you buy & sell , chop & change your ●…cclesiasticall offices & lyuings of your Church as horses in a faire ; he was euen as vnlawfull a minister as your self , he shewed himself a hireling in that he forsooke his flock .

Why is ●…t not lawfull with consent of the flock , vppon some occasions to remoue ?

But the Priestes of England come & goe at their owne pleasure as best is for their gayne , without the priuitie or goodwill of the people ; he shewed himself a hireling both at his entrance and departure , so could he no way ●…ustifie or approue this whole parish vnto you ; But let me aske you a question , how found Mr. Paget this parish ?

Peraduenture they had a Preacher before ; But why aske you ?

For this reason , because in Q. MARIES time they were all apostate & fallen to Idolatrie ; at the begynning of Q. ELISABETH●… r●…igne they were all found in that estate , & by the first sound of her Trompet all made Protestantes , had this ministrie set ouer them , the Gospell & Sacraments ymmed●…atlie administred ▪ eu●… in the same parishes & estate as they now stand : So that I would know of you whether this people in this estate were a fit flock or Congregacyon to receiue the ministrie of the Gospel & Sacraments or no ; and also whether anie Preacher ( ●…ow conning soeuer ) can make this people , which contynue in the same estate , without anie repentance or amend●…mēt of their former doing●… ▪ the true Church of CHRIST or no.

Neither did they all apostate in Q. MARIES daies , neither do I thinke they therby forsook their christianitie , or were no Church .

Idolatrie was then publikly set vp & exercised in their Church , all the parish resorted & gaue outward obedience to the same , such as refreined were eyther forthwith persecuted vnto the death , or out of the land ; therfore I may affirme that all the pa●… that remained were generally apostate , & so found & receiued in that estate of this ministrie to theis Sacraments , & so successiuely haue they continued to administer vnto them for the wage of BALAA●… . Now that in this ●…ime of popery & Idolatrie they could be no Church , the whole first Table of the lawe sheweth plainly . There is but one God , one Spirit , one Faith , one Christ , one Church , one Ministerie : Christ is not deuided ▪ he is not here & there , neither doth he communicate with Antichrist or Idols .

There must needs then be a seperation made of the faithfull from the vnbeleeners , Idolaters , prophane , before there can be a flock or fit people for the Lord .

There must needs also be a flock befo●… there can be a Pastor or true ministrie erected or exercised ; but as yet your parish in milk●…treet was neuer thus seperate from the prophane of the land , or prepared to receiue or exercise the ministrie of CHRIST ; therfore both people & ministrie are still in confusion & disorder , & cannot be held the true established Church of CHRIST .

They are seperate from the propha●…e , neither suffer I ani●… such to communicat there .

They still stand in the same estate & confusion that they were first receiued at the beginning of our Q. ELIZABETHS reigne , euen all the pari●…h that now dwell there , or hereafter shall dwell there , without exception of anie person , all are of your Church , none all this while seperat , no not one put from emongst you ; therfore you stand in the same estate that the rest doe , eue one body with all the wocked of the land , vnless●… you also think that there are none wicked emongst you , none wicked in the land .

I know none wicked in all my parish .

What not one wicked all this while ? s●…re you then haue a more excellent Church than euer was on the earth : But trow you ●…re none wicked in all the land , with whom you stand one body ? ( for all are of your Church ) will you iustifie also all the Pari●… of England ?

I will iustifie all those Parishes that haue preaching ministers .

And what think you of those that haue vnpre●…ching ministers ?

I think not such to be true Churches .

Surely theis Preachers are wondrous men , they can do more then euer our Sauiour CHRIST or his Apostles could do with their preaching , that in al places wheresoeuer they become can eftsoones ymmediatly make that Church which ere while was none , the true Church of Christ , & that all the Parish without exception of an●…e one person , & that euen as sone as they are become ministers of the same . But what if that Parish where an vnpreaching Priest is , make the same profession that the other doe that haue Preachers , are they then no Churches ?

Yes if they make the same profession of faith , then I hold them Churches also .

That they do : All the Parishes in England haue the same confession , Creed , & english Seruice-booke read , as the Papists also haue the same Creedes , Pater-nosters , Pistles , Gospels , & much of this Seruice-booke , therfore they are all of the Church , & so we are againe where we began , and all the land of your Church , without seperacō or exceptio of person ; for all the land maketh this confession after this maner .

But we haue enough now spoken of theis Parishes , let vs come to the ministerie of your Church of England , what shall we think of the vnpreaching ministrie , is it a ministrie or no ?

It is necessarie that the Church should haue the Scriptures read , and that by a minister .

You answere not the point ; the question is , whither they be ministers or no.

I thinke they are Ministers .

Pastors they cannot be , because they cannot teach ; which Mr. SP●…RIN consented vnto : Yet aduenture they to delyuer , & the Parishes to receiue their Sacraments , which none but Pastors can do ; They also both possesse & supply the roomes of parish-Parsons . But I would now see how you can approue your owne ministerie by the Testament of CHRIST ; which he cnde uored to do by this Proposition .

My Ministerie is from God , with the appro●…ion of the assemblie of 〈◊〉 Church where I am .

That cannot be , you were presented by your L. Patron , instituted by your L. Bishop in some place at his appointment , not in the presence of your Congregation , they were not called neither had they anie thing to do with the action , they must take of force such an one as is thrust vppon them by theis LLs ▪ the Patron & Bishop ; they haue n●…ither consent nor discent nor anie thing to do in this action ; they can neither chuse nor refuse nor put away for anie fault that their Parson can commit , be it neuer so heynous ; be he an Heretike , Coniurer , Adulterer , Drunkerd , they can for no error or crime put him away , they mu●… ioyne vnto him in prayer & Sacraments vntill the Bishop remou●… him . Thus haue ye not that approbation euen of this p●…ople you speake of , which though you had could nothing auaile but rather ouerthrow your ministerie , they being as yet vngathered to Christ , and therfore neither may in this estate chuse a Minister ; nor anie exe●…ise a ministerie vnto them , without ●…eynous sacriledge : But this your ministerie both in your entrance , office , & whole administration is Antichristian , your entrance being by the Patron & Bishop , your office to be a towne Priest or parish Parson , your administracyon according to the prescription & limitation of your L the Bishop , to whom you haue sworne your Cannonicall obedience .

The Patron doth elect by consent of the people , who haue yeilded their right vnto him , as vnto the wisest & worthiest emongst them , and so they approue his choise .

Whether the Patron had that power & priuiledg of the people o●… no is doubtfull I thinke rather of the Pope : But that he doth it without their priuitie & maugre their wylls , it is euident ; For be the Patron an hundreth myles of , be he●… childe , a woman , yet they both may & will gyue the Benefice without the knowledg , priuitie , or consent of the parish . Now which way can either this election be iustified by the Testament of Christ , or be ioyned vnto the ministerie of Christ ?

I make lesse matter of my ordinacion then of my ministrie .

Yet withou●… a true calling you cannot exercise anie true offic●… .

The calling is not the substance of the ministrie .

Thus whilest you professe science you make shipwrack of faith , & with your logick put away the Testament of Christ . Christ faith that he which ascendeth into the shepefolde anie other way is a thiefe & a spoyler ; & in ●…other place ; No man taketh this honour to himself , but he that is called of God &c. Christ hath ordeyned to euery offic●… lawes for the giftes , lif , & conuersation of the Officer , for his probation , election , ordinacion , administracyon : He which wanteth the calling of Christ vnto the ministrie cannot haue or exercise anie ministerie in the Church ; but you want the calling of Christ vnto your ministrie ; therfor the ministerie you exercise is not of Christ .

I haue the true calling of Christ vnto my ministrie in my conscience .

The Conscience only is assured , & re●…h vppon the word of God ; But your calling vnto this ministerie can●…ot be 〈◊〉 by the word of God , but is found therby to be vnlawfull & antichristian ; Therfore &c.

I stand not vppon my outward calling by the Bishop so much as vppon my inward calling & the consent of the people .

But the people you said erewhile consented to the election of the Patron , the ordinacion of the B. &c. therfor their consent was vnto & in enill , & so can no way iustifie your ministerie , neither haue the people anie power to make anie other or better Election , all of them standing vnder the antichristian yoke of theis Babilonish Bishopps .

I will not stand to iustifie the calling of the Bishopps , I haue a better calling then the calling of the Bishopps .

But what then thinke you of the calling of theis BBs.

I confesse it to be vnlawfull .

Set downe that vnder your hand .

To wh●…t end ; that were to bring my self into danger .

Are you afraid to witnesse vnto the trueth ? Well , but being vnlawfull how 〈◊〉 you were not afeard to receaue it , & still to re●…eine it ?

I did i●… in ignor●…nce , I haue since repented yt .

Which way could you be a true minister that knew not so much as the true entrance vnto a true ministrie ; how durst you aduenture to administer before the Lord , & take the care of the soules of men in this ignorance ? Furder how can you be said to haue truly repented that calling which you still reteine , still administring by the same the Bishops licence , & still standing vnder his yoke & obedience ?

I attribute much to the ciuile magistrate , I do it because of the ciuile magistrate that authoriseth the B.

But may the ciuile magistrate either comm●…d anie thing contrary to the 〈◊〉 of God ▪ or if he do is ●…e to be obeied therin , or ca he excuse you befo●… the Tribunal of Christ for the breach of Gods lawes ?

Why then you affirme that the Queene & the Parliament do wickedly in gyuing this power & authoritie vnto the BBs. will you write that ?

Yea that I will by the grac●… of God whilest I haue breath , & 〈◊〉 it with my blood also ( if so God will ) yt being directly contrary to the Testament of Christ as your self confesseth , & yet continue to do contrary to your owne Conscience O take heed , God is greater then your conscience : It is a fearefull thing to fall into the hands of the lyuing God .

I thanke God I haue his calling vnto my ministrie , which is the inward calling , being approued by my gyft●…s vnto my Flocke , so that though there were error in my outward calling ( which I haue repented ) yet my ministrie is not disanulled .

With what conscience can you now call that an error in a true calling , which euen now you confessed to be a false calling ? Is not this to diminish , excuse , & hide your synne ? call you this true repentance , how can you be thought , or dare you affirme to haue repeted this error in your entrance into your ministrie , when you still pleade for & iustifie that calling by the ciuile magistrate , when you confesse it repugnant vnto , & condemned in the Testamet of CHRIST , how can you be said to haue repented it when you still reteine it , stand & administer by yt , and ioyne vnto such as still enter that way ? neither in deed haue you a●…ie other calling vnto your ministerie in your Church : make it therfore either good or euill , lawfull or vnlawfull by the word of God , let vs bring it to the triall .

I stand not so much by their calling as by the calling of God , by whom I am enabled to my ministrie .

This is Anabap●…isticall to iustifie open transgression by the inward conscience or gyftes ; might not anie thus vsurpe the ciuile magistrates office also by thei●… inward gyftes , wisdome , knowledg , fitness &c. but God hath ordeined a lawfull calling to euery lawfull office , which may at no hand be seuered from the office ▪ which calling who so wanteth & taketh honour to himself to administer &c. breaketh the boundes of God & vsurpeth : You haue no giftes which you haue not receiued of God , God knoweth his owne giftes which he hath gyuen to euery one best whom h●… seeth meete & hath appointed to the ministerie , vnto such he alwayes gyueth a lawfull calling vnto the ministerie ; wherfore you must eyther approue your calling by the word of God , or els be held 〈◊〉 vsurper , for all your giftes .

The BBs. tolerate manie thinges with vs .

They allow nothing but their owne proceedings , neither doth the land receiue or alow anie other .

I say not allow , they may suffer that they allow not .

Here is good worke emongst you , they tolerate with you , & you subscribe vnto them ; thus are you togeather in conspiracie against CHRIST .

Will you say that Mr. EGERTON & Mr. GARDINER are not true ministers of the Gospell because they haue no such calling as you require ?

I require no other calling then CHRIST enioyneth , which calling if they want ( as I am sure they do ) I dare affirme that they do not serue Christ in the ministrie of the Gospell ▪ all extraordinarie offices & callings thervnto being now ceased .

All the Churches & learned in EVROPE giue vs consent and allow vs for Ministers .

But vntill you approue your selues such by the word of God yt will nothing auaile you .

Our giftes & Doctrines approue our ministrie : Did you euer heare Mr. EGERTON & Mr. GARDINER ?

You still oppose your giftes against God , & hold the faith in respect of mens persons : The men you speake of I neuer heard in their ministerie , but I know them by their ministerie to be notable Sectories & false Teachers .

They be men of singuler giftes , & how can you gyue out this of them & know them not , neither euer heard them teach .

I am taught to know the tree by the fruit , a false Minister by his antichristian entrance , office , & administration , all which are notably found vppon them & vppon you all ; neither will I say that the one of them bought his Benefice , or that the other hath bene conuinced of false Doctrines by his owne Auditorye sondry times .

The first hath repented that , & you haue the other but by hearesay : they are knowne to be learned men , & such as teach sound Doctrines .

My hearesay hath better proofe then your know ; But how can theis or anie of you teach sound Doctrine sincerely in a false ministerie ? BALAAM , & the Pharises , & Satan himself had & hath as great giftes & learning as they or anie of you : But if we would come euen to this preaching you boste of , I suppose more corrupt Teachers cannot be found in anie age then these , they teaching nothing almost truly , much lesse sincerely .

I teach Christ Iesus very God & very man , & him crucified , & that truly .

I will not presse you with anie Argumentes drawne from your , false entrance & administracyon , all which vndoubtedly conuince that you cannot preach CHRIST soundly , yet is there no heretike that holdeth not some trueth : But this I affirme & will approue that you deny the whole anointing of CHRIST in his three Offices of KING , PRIEST , & PROPHET , and therfore you deny CHRIST to be come in the flesh , & cannot preach him soundly ; I graunt indeed that you preach him crucified in your Sermons & Church , buffet●…d , skourged , cr●…wned with thorn●…s , by ●…ayling , blasph●…ming , & impri●…ning le is faithfull witnesses & seruants dayly at all hand●…s , you preach him blindfoulded by drawing a vaile ouer his fac●… , that the p●…ople should not see to th' end of his ministerie , not one of you either Priest or people as yet knowing what belongeth to a true profession , a true Communion , a true Office , or a t●…ue entrance , much lesse to true administration : CHRIST crucified you all abhorr , you cannot abide his crosse , you will not suffer or abide by anie trueth , but dayly seeke new cauills , distinctions and ●…uasions to hide anie trueth which bringeth d●…nger , or to auoide the crosse of CHRIST , & therfore you shall not reigne with him . It were an infinite thing to reckon vp the diuerfitie of opinions , sectes , errors that are found emongst you of the ministrie , it being almost an vnpossible thing to finde two of you of one ●…udgment , or anie one of you constant to your selues , except it be in euill ; one preaching one Doctrine in one place , & another the quite contrary in another place , y●…a some of your chief Teachers haue preached p●…linodā concerning your ministerie & Sacramentes of your Church : But I would now know what office these men you speake of , or your self do execute .

Mr. EGERTON is a Doctor , Mr. GARDINER & my s●…lf are pastors .

Your Church of England hath no such office as the Teachers Office , yt hath no other then Vniuersitie Doctors , which are not in anie office , or therby Ministers : I wene also he hath a dumbe Minister one that cannot preach for his Pastor ; so that he is a hireling Curat & no Christian Teacher . As for Mr. GARDINER & your self , you be parish Parsons , & therfore cannot be held christian Pastors .

I deny your Argument , it followeth not because they are termed Parsons , therfore they are not Pastors .

Both the name & Office are diuerse , therfore not the same .

The Parson is called in latine Rector Ecclesiae , which name properly agreeth to the Pastor .

Your latine name is popish , one of the names of blasphemie written vppon the heades of the Beast , for CHRIST hath appointed many to the office of gouerning & ouerseeing , & not the Pastor only : And therfore this name is not proper to the Pastor .

The Pastor should gouerne the Church .

But the Pastor is not to gouerne yt alone , there are others ioyned in Commission with him , therfore he cannot in this maner be called the rector of the Church , though he be a gouernour emongst the rest : But the office of a parish Parson is as greatly diuerse from the office of a Pastor , as the name is , for if Mr. FOXE say true , they were first created when the Metropolitane BBs. sprang vp , as Baylifes vnto them ; Furder , I neuer read in the new Testament that the Pastor of a Church should be so stinted & limited by other Ministers , as you are by your Lord Bishop , his Chancell●…r , Commissary & Arch-Deacon ; I maruell what ecclesiasticall offices theis men that thus rule ouer so manie Pastors & Churches also , haue .

Though the Parson be called rector Ecclesiae yet he doth not gouerne alone , there are others ioyned with him .

Who be theis ? I neuer heard of anie such .

The Church-wardens & Sidemen &c.

What are these gouernours also ? SPE . Yea.

To say the trueth neither the one nor the other do gouerne but stand in most miserable & seruile subiection to the BBs. & to their substitutes : or if this gouernment should be their owne ( as you surmise ) most Antichristian it is , & such as no true Pastors or Elders may execute in the Church of CHRIST : But are you not afeard Mr. SPERIN thus to glose & counterfet to couer these marked souldiours of the Beast , with the names and titles of Christes Officers ? will you set downe this vnder your hand ?

Those are wonderfull gouernours as euer I heard of , I had thought theis Church-wardens had rather bene the Collectors or Deacons of your Church , because they gather & dispense th' almes of your Churches . But now to your Parsons , they haue a diuerse and discrepant 1. Name 2. Office 3. Entrance vnto their Office both in Election & Ordination , 4. Administracyon , 5. maintainance or lyuing : For all which reasons seuered , & ioyned none of your Parsons can be true Pastors .

The name of Pastor is of no moment , for they are also called Gouernours & Ouerseers , aswell as Pastors .

But this name of Pastor is only peculiar & doth distinguish the office of the Pastor from others , & so doth neither the name of Elder nor Ouerseer , but being in Counsell & gouernment common to him with others , are also gyuen indifferently to him with other : Therfore this name of Pastor is of great monent & can neither be altered nor spared , as wherby the wisdome of GOD doth both distinguish & expresse the Office , therfore if you take away or change this name , you also take away & change the Office , no other name that can be deuised by man sufficing to distinguish & expresse this Office , as this doth .

Thus the time not suffering to follow or vrge the other pointes alledged against this Office , we for this time ceased ; Mr. SPERIN making promise to come againe , and if he could to bring some other with him .