A collection of certaine sclaunderous articles gyuen out by the bisshops against such faithfull Christians as they now vniustly deteyne in their prisons togeather with the answeare of the saide prisoners therunto. Also the some of certaine conferences had in the Fleete according to the bisshops bloudie mandate with two prisoners there.

A COLLECTION OF CERTAINE SCLAVNDEROVS Articles gyuen out by the Bisshops against such faithfull Christians as they now vniustly deteyne in their Prisons togeather with the answeare of the saide Prisoners therunto .

ALSO THE SOME OF CERTAINE CONFERENCES HAD IN THE FLEETE according to the Bisshops bloudie Mandate with two Prisoners there .

1590.

Grace to the reader with wisdome from aboue , to discerne the truth , & to walke in the same aright .

THese copies of 〈◊〉〈◊〉 articles & the awnsweres therunto , as also of these late conferences had in the Fleet , being come vnto my hands , I thought no lesse then my dutie to impart vnto thee , & publish to the view of all men : 1. that : the true cawses of these controvercies 2. the BBs dealing with Christs poore servants : 3. and cheifly the truth yt self might the sooner be brought to light & appeare . The cawses of controuersie thow maist herby perceaue to be no light or small matters concerning things indifferent or some fewe trifling ceremonies , ( as they haue long labored to make the world beleeue ( although euen those least litle trifles being brought into & thrust by way of law vpon the church hauing no warrant in the testament of Christ ought not to be suffred for the space of an howre ) but most high & waightie are these matters , concerning the whole building of the church : whith is affirmed to be altogether out of order from the verie foundation to the top , & not according to the patterne of Christs testament either in the people , ministerie , ministration , worship , gouernment , order , al things out of frame , such as can neither stand before the face of Christ , neither may anie of Gods children ioine vnto with promise of salvation . Now the course the BBs & their cleargie haue taken , to approoue themselues vnto all men to be no such deceitfull work men theire building to be no such wood , hay , stubble , hath not beene to bring their workes to the light , & to submit yt & themselues , to be measured by the golden reed of Gods word , therby iustifying themselues , conuincing and perswading others : But in stead of this , they first imprison all such as make anie scruple or question of theire doings : yea all such as but speake against them , they shut vp in close pryson , there to continewe without bayle or mainprice , all the daies of theire life , except they submit & recant : Some they cast into most noisome & vile dungeons , without ayre , foode , bedds , or so much as strawe to lye vppon , keeping them from theire wyues , children , trades labours , to the vtter vndoing & affamishment of them , their wyues , & children ; Others they lade , with as manie yrons as they can beare ; som others they a while produced to the Sessions , there indicting them as recusants vppon the Statute made for the Papists ; publishing them by theire prynt with priuiledg Anabaptists , Hereticks , Schismaticks , Sectories , Donatists , Conuenticlers , seditious , turbulent ; sparsing abrode through all the land certeine Articles of theire owne deuising against them , to bring them into hatred with the whole land . wher vnto also they haue not spared theire toungs , in theire pulpits , where euery one of theire priests might forge what opinion he lyst against them , & confute it with the same mouth , in theire name : and all this , without once producing them , to anie christian triall where they might haue place giuen them , to defend themselues , & produce theire reasons , or once endeuoring to perswade or confute them by anie one place of scripture ; Yet not content with all this , they can take no rest in themselues , or thincke theire kingdome safe , vntill they haue deuoured the pray they haue taken , & rydd them out of the way , which wil not bow downe , & worship the Beast , & his image . And hereunto ( hauing no hope to accomplish theire bloudy purpose , by the common law of the land , seing they can finde no occasion against these men , except it be in the law of theire God ) they of late contriued this new spanish conference , sending certeine of theire select souldiours vnto them into theire prisons , there by way of conference to fish from them som matter , wheruppon they might accuse them to theire holy fathers the BBs , who theruppon might delyuer them , as conuicts of heresie vnto the secular powers . But blessed be God , that in these points , hath hewed theire hornes shorter in the beginning of her Mat. reigne , not allowing that to be heresie , which they should so pronounce , but what they by the scrip . should so proue : againe no heresie to be capitall or punished by death , but what by the first . 4. Councells , & by the scriptures , was so adiudged : els had they by this , shed more innocent & christian bloud , then euer theire predecessors did in this land before them . But now , as they will at no hand , be drawen vnto this peaceable & christian triall , to haue these matters decided & iudged , by the word of God ; so haue they not gayned that they sought by these theire messengers , who ( through the power of God ) were intangled in theire owne words , not being able to spurne against the pricks , or to get such matter at the hands of these prysoners as they sought : Which , they espying , followed not the sute half so hotely as they were inioyned , comming but twice , whereas they ought to haue com twice euery weeke , at the least : At which tymes , how they behaued themselues , let such as were present report ; and also such as read these conferences iudge , what cause they haue to exclaime , & accuse of heresie &c. such as call them to the testament of Christ , & would haue theire whole Church , & all theire proceedings therin , buylt theruppon . Which course they are so far from receauing , as they open theire mouthes bouldly into a most high blasphemie , against God , & his tabernacle , & them that dwel in the heauen ; theire handes they haue armed to violence , theire feete are swift to shed bloud , seeking by all subtile & indirect meanes to suppresse the truth . Wherfore , so much the more is it the dutye of euery true seruant of Christ , euen by all meanes to publish the same ; which hath caused me at this tyme , to exhibit these things vnto the reading & view of all men ; not regarding the blame that I ame like to sustaine at all hands therfore , so som may reape anie good therby : Yet see I not whie anie should iustly be offended with this my doing , seing therby no wrong is don to anie man . As for these prysoners that are named , & had to do in this busines , there is no cause they should be offended , seing they vnder theire owne handes haue made relation hereof vnto the Church , & haue ( for so doing ) the practise of the Apost. Acts. 4. ver. 23. as also of owre late martyres in Q. Maries dayes , in the lyke cases . The credit of these wrytings , I partly refer to the conscience of the men that wrote them , as they will answere the contrarye before that great Iudg ; but cheifly , to the testimonie of the witnesses present & to the indifferent consideration of anie man , that will compare the arguments & answeres , to the present subiect of the discourse . As for the other side , if nothing should be published , vntill theire consent were had , there should neuer anie of these things com to light . But if they thinke themselues iniuryed , let them set downe the particulers wherin , or , for the further satisfying of all men , let them yet at length condiscend to som christian & free conference , where both sides may haue lyberty to produce theire reasons , a true record of them be kept , by faithfull & indifferent notaries , ech side be allowed to haue a copie therof , & time to consider of what is passed accordingly . Thus might the thruth , sone , & peeceablye be knowen , where the word of God may be judg betwixt them : from which , who so departeth , & wil not be reduced , let him to his wne perill , vndergoe such censures , & iudgments as are due to his error & syn . Only this is sure ; Wisdome is iustified of all her children .

Farewell in the Lord .

To owre Louing freinds , Mr. Archdeacon Mollins , Mr. Doctor Andros , Mr. Cotton , Mr. Hutchinson , and the rest of the preachers , in & about London with in named .

AFter owre harty Commendations ; I , the Bisshop of London , haue receiued order from my Lords grace of Canterburye with the aduice of both the cheiffe Iustices , that conference should presently be had with these Sectories , whiche do forsake owr Church , and be for the same commytted prysoners : for that it is intended , if by owr good & learned perswasions , they will not be reduced to conforme themselues to their dutifull obedyence , that they shal be proceeded with all according to the course of the common lawe : Therfore , these are to will & requyre you , & euery of you whose names are mencioned in the shedule hereunto anexed , in her Mats. name , by vertue of her high Commission , for causes ecclesiasticall to vs and others dyrected ; That twise euery weeke ( at the least ) you doe re-repayre to those persons , & prysoners , whose names are in this tycket set doune , and that you seeke by all learned & discrete demeanure you may to reduce them from their errors : And for that eyther their conformitye , or disobedyence , may be more manifest , when they shall com vnto theire trial ; Therfore we requyre you to set downe in wryting the perticuler dayes , of your going to confer with them , & lykewise your censure what it is of them , as that if occasion doe serue to vse it , you wil be sworne vnto ; And for that Mr Doctor Stanhope , Chancellor to me the Bisshop of London , is gon out of the Citie , therfore we requyre Mr. Mollins , to send for all those seuerall preachers , and delyuer them the names of the prysoners togeather with the prysons whervnto they are assigned to resort , and to requyre them as aforesaide , to take the chardg vppon them , according to the trust commytted vnto them : and in case anie of them refuse , that then you require him or them , forthwith , to repayre to me to Fulham , and to certefie me of their aunswers , before theire comming : And so we byd you Farewell : the 25. of Februarye 1589.

Your Louing freinds Iohn Lond. Iohn Herbert . Edw. Stanhope . Rich. Cosen .

WE haue sent you herewithall a note of som part of their errors , wherby those preachers that are associat vnto you , may the better consider how to deale in conference with them .

A briefe of the positions holden by the newe sectorie of recusants .

1 THat it is not lawfull to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church , for a set forme of prayer .

2 Secondly that all set & stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord , not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies .

3. Thirdly , that the publique prayers & worship of God in England , as it is by lawe in the Church of England established , is false , superstitious , popish , and not to be vsed in anye Christian congregation .

4. That the Church of England as it is now established is no entier member of the Church of Christ .

5. That the gouernment of the Church of England , as it is now established , is no lawfull gouernment , nor christian , but antichristian & popish .

6. That the Sacraments of Babtisme & the Lords supper , as they are administred in the Church of England , be not true Sacraments .

7. That infants ought not to be baptised , according to the forme of baptisme ministred now in the Church of Englad , but are rather to be kept vnbaptised .

8. Manie of them make scruple to affirme , that the Queens Maiestie hath supreame aucthoritie to gouern the Church of England in cases ecclesiasticall and to make lawes ecclesiasticall , not contrary to Christs lawes .

9. That the lawes ecclesiasticall already established , by the auctoritie of the Queene & Realme , be not lawfull .

10. That if the prince , or maiestrate vnder her , doe refuse or defer to reforme , such faults as are aimsse in the Church , the people may take the reforminge of them into theire owne hands , before or without her auctoritie .

11. That the presbiterie , or eldership , may for som causes after admonition , if there ensue not reformation excommunicat the Queene .

12. That the Church of England , as it now standeth by lawe established , professeth not a true Christ , nor true religion , that it hath no ministers in deed , nor Sacraments in deed .

Iames Forester prysoners in newgate — in the Fleete Do : Bancraft Iohn Francys prysoners in newgate — in the Fleete Robert Batkine prysoners in newgate — in the Fleete Do : Grant Thomas Freeman in the gatehowse Do : Wood Thomas Settel in the gatehowse Iohn Debenham in the gatehowse Mr. Egerton George Collier in the Clynke Iohn Sparowe in the Clynke Do : Sallard Edmond Nicolson in the Clynke Mr. Iackson Xpofer Raper in the Clynke Mr. Dunscombe Xpofer Browne in the Clynke Quintan Smyth in the Clynke Mr. Smyth Androwe Smyth in the Clynke William Blakborowe in the Clynke Mr. Phyllips Thomas Lemar in the Clynke Thomas Michell in the Clynke Do : White Anthonye Clakston in newgate William Forester in newgate Mr. Sparke William Denford in newgate Roger Waterer in newgate Mr. Erlye Edeth Burrowghe in newgate William Burt in newgate Mr. Turnball George Smels in the Counter woodstreet Xpofer Bowman in the Counter woodstreet Mr. Edmonds Robert Iackson in Count : woodstr . Mr. Haughton Nycolas Lee in the Count : woodstr . Mr. Gylpenne Robert Andrewes in Count : woodstr . Mr. Coper William Hutton in Count : woodstr . Mr. Archpoole Iohn Buser in Count : woodstr . Do : Hanmer Iohn Fissher in Count : woodstr . Do : Crooke William Clarke in Count : woodstr . Mr. Trypp . Richard maltusse in Count : woodstr . Mr. Morrison William Fouller in Count : woodstr . Mr. Crowe Richard Skarlet in Count : woodstr . Mr. Browne Roger Rippine in Count woodstr . Mr. Hall Iohn Clarke in Count woodstr . Mr. Moslee Rowland Skipworth in the Counter poultrye preacher at Bridewell . George Knifton in the Counter poultrye Mr. Anderson Richard Hayward in Count : poult . Mr. Gardiner Iohn Lankaster in Count : poult . Mr. Cotton Thomas Endford in Count : poult . Mr. Cheyne Mr. Mollins Henry Barrowe in the Fleete Mr. Androwes Iohn Greenwood in the Fleete Mr. Hutchinson Do : Sarauea Daniell Studley in the Fleete Mr. Grauet Walter Lane in the Fleete Mr. Fissher Edmond Tomson in the gatehouse Mr. Iudson Iohn Nicolas in the gatehouse Mr. Temple . William Dodson in the gatehowse Mr. Allison Iohn Barrens in the gatehowse Do : Blague Iohn Cranford in the gatehowse Mr. Herd Richard wheeler in the gatehowse Mr. Harvye Thomas Canadine — in the gatehowse

A brief answeare to such Articles as the Bishopps haue giuen out in our name , vpon which articles their Priests were sent and injoyned to Confer with vs in the seuerall prisons wherin we are by them detayned .

HOw charitablie soeuer theis forged positions conningly contriued , may seme to be framed , in respect of the sclaunderous priuiledged pamphletts , heretofore dispersed through the whole land , by the enemies of Christ & suppressors of all righteousnes , to bring vs in contempt with all men ; yet if we consider the end , & more sereously way the present drift of theis BBs , theire priests , and new reconciled Reformists , set a worke in this busines , we shal finde they neuer went more craftely about the spilling of owre innocent bloud . For they in theire secret consultations hauing collected theis articles , haue allso togeather with them constituted & commaunded certaine theire priests , twise euery weeke , during this Lent , to offer vs priuate conference in way of examination , or auriculer confession , to fish farther cause of accusation vppon theis poincts ; whose testimonie & verdict of suborned witnesses , they think to frame to their bloudthirstie appetites ; we in the meane tyme not suffred , eyther to set downe owre owne positions , neyther before equall wytnesses to answer or discouer theire false allegations . Wherfore we thought it good ( being all close prysoners ) to relate vnto all men that desire the truth , owre simple iudgments in theis doctrines , wherat they thus snarrle ; we resting still most desirous of anie christian or equall conference before indifferent witnesses set downe & recorded , if we might obteine the same vppon the dispence of owre lyues ; yea the God of heauen knoweth , how willing & ready we are to be instructed or corrected in anie thing wherin we err , when it shal be shewed vs by the booke of God .

First then vnderstand , that theis accusers affirme theis to be owre positions , which they haue framed of theire owne braine , without owre knowledg , much lesse consent . Secondly they pronunce vs newe sectories , although we hold no other thing in iudgment or practize , more then Christ & his Apostles haue taught vs in the Scriptures , and confirmed by theire examples & deathes ; And whether Christs Testament in theis mens antichristian lawes & ordinances , fetched from Rome , or deuised by themselues , be now to be holden newe doctrines , let all men consider . Thirdly they call vs Recusants , hauing neither forsaken the fellowship of the true Church or least member of Christ that walketh in the Communion of the faith , submytting himself to be guyded by Christs lawes & ordinances , nor refused anie truth approued vnto vs . Only we , according to the Commandment of God , haue forsaken all sprirituall fellowship with theire false Church , as also the inuetions & popery , yea all the execrable marchandize of that ministery & confused Babell , euen that world of wickednes ; Out of which the Lord drawe fourth all his elected .

1. That it is not lawful to vse the Lords prayer publiquely in the Church for a set forme of prayer .

THe Lords prayers we take to be those prayers which himself offred to his father , in his owne person , as he was man vppon earthe , according to his present occasions , & the will of his father poured fourth . The forme of prayer gyuen to his Disciples & to all posterities by the record of the Euangelists , we hold & acknowledg most holy Canonicall scripture , to be vsed of all Churches in that vse , and to that end for which owre Sauioure gaue it : Namely , to be the perfect patterne & rule of all owre prayers , whether deprecations , supplications , thanksgyuing &c. Not that we are bounde to the very words saying ouer , or asking all things therin conteined euery tyme we pray , nether that the words red or sayd ouer by rote can be called a prayer , seing all prayer must proceede of Gods spyrit from owr owne harts according to owre present necessities : So that where he calleth it the Lords prayer he falsefieth the text , seing Christ neuer did or could vse it as his owne prayer ; For there is petition made for remission of synnes , he neuer trespassing ; And where he saith we hold it vnlawfull to be vsed publiquelye in the Church for a fet forme of prayer , he sclaundereth vs ; we graunt it to be the absolute , perfect , & only forme of all true prayers . If anie demaund further , whether we may vse the words therof , eyther wholy as they are set downe , or anie sentence of them in prayers , we answer , by explication , or application , tending to edifying & expressing owre present estate , we may . The same questions may be demaunded of the prayers mentioned in the Psalmes & dyuerse other scriptures , to which we aunswere , that we restraine no man of the vse of anie parcell or sentence of Scripture , rightly applyed ; Yet herevppon is not iustified eyther theire fyue tymes saying ouer of theire Pater Noster in theire English morrow masses , nor yet theire superstitious repetition of theis words in the conclusions of theire prayers after or before theire sermons , when as they say they knowe not what to aske , and therfore pray as Christ hath taught them , ( by repeting these words which thei call the Lords prayer ) where in thei lye .

2. That all sett & stinted prayers are meere babling in the sight of the Lord , and not to be vsed in publique Christian assemblies .

FOr such formes of prayer as are Canonicall , such as be commended to vs by Gods spirit in his word , we haue already in the former Article set downe the true & holy vse of them to be for instruction &c. But , that anie man should thrust his deuises into the worship of God & christian assemblies , we wonder at theire ignorant presumption , and much more that they dare be so bold as to set & stint the holy ghost , what , when , & how manie words to vtter in prayer ; So that your annuall , monthly , dayly , morning and euening prayers , wherin you bynde mens consciences to the prescript repetition of your owne words as an offring to God , we hold them by the euidence of Gods booke not only a babling , but apochriphall & Idolatrous , contrary to the second Commaundment , bringing the wrath of God vppon the imposers & receauers ; For by theis Idolls you take away the whole lyberty , fredome , & true vse of spirituall prayer ; yea you stop the springs of the lyuing fountaine which Christ hath sealed in his Church .

3. That the publique prayers & worship of God in England as it is by lawe in the Church of England established , is false , superstitious & popish , & not so be vsed in anie Christian Conngregation .

IF Christ Iesus the author & fiinisher of owre faith haue constituted & confirmed the ministration of the new Testament perfect for all ages & persons how to serue him according to his wyll , then your liturgye drawen out of the Popes portuis is not only Idolatrous , superstitious , & a deuised worship , the inuentions & precepts of men in stead of the liuelye graces & present guifts of his spirit wherby men call vppon his name , but a bondle of infinite grosse & blasphemous errors , yea euen a 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 or counterfeit gospell , not only set aboue the gospell of Christ but dyrectly instituting an other ministry & ministracyon then Christ hath commended & commaunded to his Church till his apearing in the clouds to iudgment : vnto which Idoll and huge Chaos of long gathered & patched errors all your ministery is sworne , wherby they renounce Christs Testament & must administer by this liturgye , babling ouer the seuerall parcells therof as thei are lymited , prescribed , & stinted from yeare to yeare , & day to day ; By which liturgye or new gospell the priests of that order are approued sufficient without preaching or the guyft of teaching , and the repeating of that 〈◊〉 booke accompted sufficient for all mens saluation ; And if anie do preache , his doctrines must be conformed to the orders hereof . The errours in this Idolatrous booke conteyned , would not be easely repeated in half a day ; yet this we are able to proue , that it instituteth & apointeth another ministery & ministration in all points , then Christs Testament hath confirmed ; not only peruerting , & making of no effect the ordinances of God concerning the worship of his people , but establishing another in the place therof , as in theire prayers , Sacraments , fasts , feasts , offrings , purifications , maryages , buryalls &c. manifestly apeareth .

4. That the Church of England , as it is nowe established , is no entire member of the Church of Christ .

THe Common wealth of England , or parish assemblies , as they gennerally stand vnder & subiect vnto the aforesaide worship & ministery consisting of all sorts of vncleane spirits , Atheists , papists , hereticks &c. are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ , or communion of saincts ; and so by outward profession , they neither being gathered from the world to the obedyence of Christ , neither hauing power or freedom to practice Christs Testament , as the truth is reuealed , are no entire member of the body of Christe .

5. That the gouernment of the Church of England , as it is now established , is no lawfull gouernment , nor Christian , but antichristian , and popish .

HAuing in the former articles sufficiently proued theire worship & ministerye to be Idolatrous , forbidden in the second Commaundment , as all apochripha & inuentions of men ; It is euident to all men , & confessed of owre enemies , that the ministers , lawes , & other ordinācs , wherby the parish assemblies are gouerned , are not such as Christ apointed to his Church , of Pastor , Teacher , Elders , Deacons &c. But by such officers , Courts & Cannons as are hatched from Rome , as Archb. L. BBs &c. whose titles , office , or administracōns , were neuer heard of in the scriptures .

6. That the Sacraments of Babtisme , & the Lords Supper , as they are administred in the Church of England , be not true Sacraments .

THere neither being lawfull ministery to administer , nor faithfull holye free people , orderly gathered vnto the true true outward profession of Christ as we haue before shewed , and consequently no Couenant of grace , the Sacraments in these assemblies of Babtisme and the Lords supper , gyuen vnto Atheists , papists , whoremasters , drunkerds & theire seede , delyuered also after a superstitious maner according to theire liturgye , and not according to the institution & rules of Christs Testament , are no true Sacraments , nor seales with promise .

7. That infants ought not to be baptised according to the forme of Babtisme ministred now in the Church of England , but are rather to be kept vnbaptized .

NO godly Christians , seperat from the false Church ought to bring theire infants to theis parish assemblies to be baptised into that felowship or profession , by that ministery , or according to that order ; but in the true Church to seeke the Seale of the Couenant so sone as it may be had by the true ministerye in the Congregation according to Christs institution , we still affirme .

8. Manie of them make scruple to affirme that the Queens Maiestie hath supreame aucthoritie to gouerne the Church of England in cases ecclesiasticall , and to make lawes ecclesiasticall nos contrarye to Christ lawes .

ALL true Christians within her Maiesties dominions acknowledg her Maiestie to be the supreame maiestrate & gouernesse of all persons with in the Church , & without the Church , yea ouer all causes ecclesiasticall & ciuill ; yet allwayes with this Caueat , that no flesh may presume to add anie thing to his word , or diminish anie thing from it . This we make no scruple to affirme .

9. That the lawes ecclesiasticall alreadye established by the aucthoritie of the Queene & Realme , be not lawfull .

SEing the ecclesiasticall lawes , Canons , Iniunctions , Articles , Courts , ministery &c. wherby these parish assemblies be gouerned and guyded , are not deryued from the booke of God , or can be warranted therby or grounded theruppon , but are the inuentions of men which tourne away the truth , abrogating Christs lawes & ordinances , yea seing they are culled out ( if not whollie receaued ) from that great Antichrist his Canons , orders & diuelish polecies , as most malignant oppositions against the will of God , confirmed & perfected with Christs bloud & miracles from heauen ; therfore these Canons , Iniunctions & articles how plawsible soeuer they agree to the world , yet are they the execrable wares of Antichrist , Statuts of Omry , and not to be receaued or obeyed of anie , that loue the Lord Iesus Christ .

10. That if the Prince or Maiestrate vnder her doe refuse or defer to reform such faults as are amisse in the Church , the people may take the reforming of them in theire owne hands , before or with out her aucthoritie .

NEyther do we looke for anie reformation of Babell , that is this world of confusion your false Church , neither do we take vppon vs to intermeddle with the Magistrats sword , but keepe owre selues in thought , word , & deed , within the lymitts of owre calling in all dutifull obedyence , to owre prince & superiours , for conscience towards God , and teach men both by word & example so to walke ; But that all that wylbe saued must forsake the false Church , & by repentance come vnder Christs obedience , to serue & worship God aright in his true Church , we hold it so true a doctrine as that there is no other meanes or promise of saluation ; Nether may we eyther neglect the true seruice of god nor practise of anie part therof , or haue fellowship with the works of darknes , though the prince should inhibit the one & commaund the other ; no , herein we shew no disobedience to magistrats , whose displeasure we must rather vndergoe , then fall into the hands of the euerlyuing god who will abide no halting . For the warrant of those things we haue the doctrine of the prophetts , Christ , & his Apostles who teach vs in this case to suffer persequution as they that feare him that can cast both soule & bodye into hell fyre ; and if the magistrate punish vs for wel doing we are far from resistance willingly vndergoing vnto death theire displeasure : But god forbid they should be guylty of owre innocent bloud by such sclaunderous reports , without due examinacion of the truth : It is these wicked false prophetts that trouble the land , that oppose the magistrats power against Christ , ciuill against spirituall , Prince against Subiects .

11. That the presbiterie or Eldership may for some causes , after admonition , if there ensue not reformation , excommunicat the Queene .

WE detest that Antichristian power of that person or presbiterye vsurping aucthoritie ouer the whole Church as you & others do exercise in your popish Courts , secret Classes , devised Synods of priests as though they were Lords ouer the heritage . The true officers of Christ vsurp no tyrannicall iurisdiction ouer the leaste member , neither do anie publique thing without the consent of the whole Congregation , much lesse may the presbiterie excommunicat anie person by theire sole power , seing Christ hath gyuen this power to the whole Church , and not solye to the presbiterie . The Prince also if he wil be held a member of Christ or of the Church , must be subiect to Christs censure in the Church . That Congregation then , wherof the prince is a member , may excommunicat the obstinat offendors therin , without exception of person read of in the whole Booke of God ; yea great iniurye to Christ his Church , and to the prince it were , to exempt them from the meanes of theire owne saluation , for which end this power is only gyuen , & ought to be so exercised ; Neither doth it derogate , diminish , or take away anie part of the magistrats power or aucthoritie , except you would haue no lawefull magistracye that is not of the Church , or that the spirituall power of Christ in his Church should disanull the magistracy , which were diuelish doctrine .

12. That the Church of England , as it now standeth by lawe established , professeth not a true Christ , nor true religion , that it hath not ministers indeed , nor Sacraments indeed .

AS for your Religion , Church , Sacraments &c. we haue before shewed the forgerye of them , vnto which former Articles we referr the reader ; Only now we must take away Balaam his stumbling block , which he layeth before men , as though we denyed the true Christ , perfect God , & perfect man , of his twoe natures subsisting , not confounded but vnited &c. Yea we confesse there is but one bodye , one spirit , one Lord , one faith , one baptisme ; and that this Christ is in all places & the same for euer , howsoeuer the false Church may challenge interest in the lyuing Child . But that these parish assemblies denie him to reigne ouer them , yea to be anie true Christ vnto them , by theire deeds it is manifest ; For doe they not put the reede of the Popes Canons in his hand , in steade of the Scepter of his owne holy word ? Do they not make him a minister of an other Testament , by bynding him to this theire popishe Apochripha liturgye , and all theire other deuises made , or to be made ? Do they not make him a priest , a sacrifice , to all the prophane & vngodly ? To conclude , do they not hereby denye and abrogate all his offices in his Church , of kingdome , priesthoode & prophecye , and his whole anointing in the flesh ?

The brief summe of a conference , had the 9. day of the 3. Moneth , betweene Mr. Hutchinson Arch-Deacon , & me Iohn Greenwood prisoner in the Fleet , hauing bene kept close now a yeare & an half , by the BBs sole commaundement . The perticuler discourse wherof , were but vnprofitable to relate , neither will I trust my fraile memorye therin .

Mr. Hutchchinson said he came by vertue of Commission in her Mats. name , to confer &c.

I denying to make answere to anie thing , vntill I might haue indifferent witnesse by , & the matter to be written downe , obteined to haue pen & ynke , & Mr. Calthrop a gentleman & prysoner to be witnes . I desired Mr. Hutch . to set downe the end of his comming , & I would make answere thereunto ; whereuppon he wrote with his owne hand to this effect .

Memorandum , that I Mr. Huthchinson being desired by Mr. Greenwood to set downe the end of my comming , shew it him to be by vertue of commission , yet not to examine him , or anie way to hurt him , but to confer with him about his seperating of himself from the Church of England , if I might reduce him &c.

I Iohn Greenwood not desiring Mr. Hutchinson his comming , yet am most willing of anie Christian conference , where it shall be free aswell to oppose as answere , & on both sides the matter to be recorded in writing . The cause that I will not otherwise reason , is , for that I haue bene wickedly sclaundered , & our cause falsly reported by Do. Some & others &c.

Mr. Hutchinson then brought forth certaine articles of theire collections , reading them vnto me ; Also he shewed me Do ▪ Somes sclauderous booke , where he turned to the positions the author had falsly affirmed to be ours . Hauing read his Articles , he demaunded vhether I approued or disalowed of them : To the Articles I said they were theyre owne collections & not ours ; And as for Mr. Somes booke , it was full of lyes & sclaunders ; But I willed him , if he would confer , to set downe some position vnder his hand , which I would assent vnto , or els disproue . Still he would haue me to answere some of those articles &c. But at length he willed me to set downe some cause whie I would not come to theire Church ; whereuppon I worte thus .

The parish assemblies in England , consist of all sorts of profane people , generallye subiect to this antichristian ministerie , lawes , Courts , worship , &c. And therfore are not the true apparant established Churches of Christ

To this he first answered , that if the parish assemblies were a false Church , then euery member thereof was a member of the false Church , which were dangerous for me to affirme ; I desired him first to denye or affirme , the argument being generall , & after infer what it pleased him ; at last he made this answere in writing with his owne hand .

HVTCH.

Your vnsufficient Argument hath 2. defaults in it . 1. the sequell of your Argument is not true ; 2. Your first assertion cannot be prooued .

GREEN :

I will replie vppon your second exception , as order requireth . That Your parish assemblies consist of all sortes of profane people &c. is thus proued . They were all by the blowing of her Maiesties trumpet at her coronai●●● in one day receaued without conuersion of life by faith & repentance , & they & theyr seede euer since generallie receaued to your sacrament without anie seperation from the world ; Therfore they now consist of all sorts of profane .

HVTCH.

Most of them are now departed by death , which then were 〈◊〉 receaued .

GREEN .

Therfore I included their seede to stand in the same estate no seperated from the world , & so could not be 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 a people called out .

HVTCH.

I know not what you meane by seperation .

GREEN .

You know what 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 BADAL signifieth , & as light is seperated from darknes , so must the Church from the profane .

HVTCH.

What meane you by profane ?

GREEN .

Atheists , men without the knowledg or feare of God , togeather with the papists , hereticks , & all other infidells . Answere I pray you directly to myne Argument .

So he began with long circumstances to write , I perfectly remember not what words , but to this effect .

HVTCH.

Mr. Greenwood affirmeth , that because the people were conuerted from poperie by her Maiesties trumpet at her coronation , therfore they consist of all sorts of profane , with certaine such like words .

GREEN .

You falsefie my former Arg. & make no sufficient or direct answere to it ; Answere directly .

HVTCH.

The Church of England receaueth none to their sacraments but such as make publike declaration of their faith ; therfore consisteth not of , or alloweth any profane people &c. Heere we had much to doe about declaration of faith , He said they in euerie assemblie had a general confession of sin , & other confessions of faith , & so were not to be called profane . To which I answered the papists also had their confessions , as the Creed & Pater noster , which they repeated daily in their meetings , yet could they not for that verball confession be accompted the true Church .

Mr. Hutchinson said the popish Church was the Church , though with manie corruptions ; & when I demanded whither the true Church or no , he said they were the Church of God . To which I answered if yt were not the true Church , yt was the Church of the deuill : At which they were displeased I should iudg so vncharitablie . Well , still I denied theyr saying ouer their seruice to be a true & sufficient confession to make them Christians , affirming they might teach such a verball confession to a parrat .

HVTCH.

Wil you iudg mens harts ? euen their godfathers doe make a confession for their infants .

GREEN .

That is euen such confession as the rest , a babling ouer certayne words without knowledg ; Neither can there anie confession be made for infants , but in mockerie . I iudg not their hearts , but I know they are not able to giue accompt of anie faith , except the verball repeating certayne words taught them by rote . But I will answere your former obiection . Your parish assemblies neuer published their conuersion of life with knowledg & fruites of repentance , seeing they had no doctrine to call them before they were all without exception receaued ; yet are all they & their seed of your Church ; therfore you receaue and allowe the profane &c.

This Argment is not fullie set downe , because Mr. Hutchinson tooke vp the paper , neither was yt awnswered .

Whiles I was writing this last position , Mr. Huth ▪ was dilating from the 3 of Mathew , how Ihon Baptist receaued them that came to his baptisme with small confession , & no knowledg of their former life ; yea that the Phariseis & Saduceis were baptised &c. also the Eunuch verie speedily &c.

GREEN .

You falsifie the text , & deceaue the people ; where can you proue that the Phariseis & Saduceis were baptised of Ihon ?

HVTCH.

Heerupon Mr. Hutchinson turned to the 3 of Math , & began at the 5 verse to read Then went out to him Ierusalem & al Iudea ; & they were baptised of him , confessing their sinnes .

GREEN .

Were all Iudea & they of Ierusalem baptised ?

HVTCH.

No , none but they that confessed their sines were baptiz .

GREEN .

This maketh against your self that none were receaued to Ihons baptisme but such as confessed their sins , for with you all the world is receaued as membres of your Church , & theyr seed baptised . Heere he would haue made the people beleeue I would haue none receaued to the Doctrine of the Church , but they which were alreadie called , I told him he must put difference betwixt the hearing of doctrine , & receauinge to be a member of the Church , & to the sacraments . He demanded whome I accompted a member of the Church . I said such as both by word & practise ioined themselues ( in the seruice of God ) into the fellowship of the true Church &c. Then he demanded wherin the seruice of God consisted ; I said in the whole obedience of his wil : he yet demanded wherin chieflie &c. I answered I would not be catechized , but desired him to bring some more euident profe that the Phariseis & Saduces were baptised . He said the whole chapter proued yt ; I desired him to draw some one argument from some one verse : so he began againe & read the 7 verse .

HVTCH.

Now when he saw manie of the Phariseis & Saduces come to his baptisme , he said vnto them , Generations of vipers who hath forwarned you &c. Againe in the 11. verse Iohn said In deed I baptize you , vnto amendement of life &c. First ( saith he ) they were forwarned to flee from the wrath to come 2 they came to his baptisme 3 the text saith Ego baptizo vos &c. all these proue they were baptised .

In that he calleth them generations of vipers , yt is euident they obeied not his forewarning , neither were baptised . 2. their comming to his baptisme proueth not that they were baptized , 3 that same Ego baptizo vos is not referred to them : so that euerie way you haue falsly made cohaerence in the text ; whervppon he willed me to read yt .

GREEN :

I then tooke the booke , & breeifly collected from the whole discourse thus ; Ierusalem & all Iudea came to Ihons ministerie & all that confessed their sinnes were baptised ; But when he-saw the Phariseis & Saduces come vnto his baptisme , he called them Generations of vipers , and therfore baptised them not . For this disiunctiue sentence but when he saw the Pharises &c. sheweth an exception , that he baptised not all that came to him in the wildernes , neither would he haue called them generations of vipers , if he had baptized them . Abowt these matters we had much adoe , which because his next comming was onlie to cauill about the same , I will refer yt to our second conference .

It must be remembred that Mr. Hutchinson made promise to me to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church when he came againe . Further remember , that these matters about the Phariseis & Saduces , baptisme were not written , & these positions & awnsweres which were written , Mr. Hutch : would needs carrie them away , & would neither haue the witnesses to keep them , or me euer to see them or consider of them . And through I though much a doe had gotten him to giue them into the witnesses hands , yet so soone as I was gon & lockt vp , Mr. wardens man was sent to the gentleman for them , whoe denijng to deliuer them without our consents , Mr. Hutch : sent the Archb: his pursyuant for them , which Mr. Hutch : the last day of our conference denied in the presence of manie gentlemen . So that either the Pursuyuant Watson made a lie , or els Mr. Hutch ; cannot be excused . But for that which I haue written , I refer yt to the witnesses for the truth therof , yea the positions & answeres to the writing wwhich Mr. Hutchinson hath kept from me .

The summe of the second conference had Betweene M. Hutchinson , & me Ihon Greenwood , the 17 day of the 3 moneth .

THe 17 day of the 3 moneth I was sent for out of my chamber , & brought into the porters lodg in the Fleet , where I found Mr. Hutchinson , & one whose name I after vnderstood to be D. Bright ; These 2 were closely locked in that no man might heare our conference , onely one of Mr. wardens men , besides my keeper came in ; so soone as I was come & willed to sit downe with them , M. Hutchinson began to make rehearsall of one point of our former conference , to this effect .

HVTCH.

Mr. Greenwood , you know the last time that I was with you , I prooued vnto you that Ihon Baptist receaued to his baptisme the Phariseis & the Saduces , mentioned in the 3 of Math. which you did not agree vnto . The proofes that I brought were manie . First the text saith they came to his baptisme . 2. he saith I baptise you &c. How stand you yet minded in this point , proceding further to repeate mine answeres , but I brake yt of , & made replie .

GREEN :

It is verie true that we dissented in this doctrine , & I disprooued all your alligations then brought to prooue that they were baptised ; I will not stand now to call into question our conference then had ; only for that this was not then set downe in writing , I beseech you if you remaine still of minde that they were baptised , set yt downe vnder your hand , & I will either assent vnto yt , or denie yt for iust cause .

HVTCH.

I will doe so , but if you will denie yt , set downe your denial .

GREEN :

So I will when I see what you will affirme . Then Mr. Hutchinson willed the wardens man to write thus .

Mr. Hutchinson saith that Ihon Baptist did baptise the Pharisies & Saduces mentioned in the 3 of Mathew , whome he calleth generations of vipers .

Mr. Greenwood he saith that Ihon Baptist did not admit the Phariseis & Saduces whome he there calleth generations of vipers to his baptisme .

HVTCH.

It is expressed in the text that they came to be baptised , because the text saith they came to his baptisme .

GREEN :

I denie the sequele of your argument , & your collection from the text I affirme to be vntrulie gathered , for ad baptismum is not ad baptizandos , that is , to be baptised .

HVTCH.

They came to his baptisme & he repulsed them not , what is this but that they were baptised .

GREENW :

Baptisme is there vnderstood for Ihons whole ministration , not onlie of the seale of baptisme , but of his doctrine also .

HVTCH.

Then they came to Ihons whole ministerie , therfore to his baptisme , seing his baptisme was a part therof .

GREEN :

Alter not the question , I know they came to see all , as vnworthy nearers & seers : but you must prooue that they were baptised .

HVTCH.

They came to be baptised , did they not ?

GREEN :

This is not the question , neither can you prooue that they came therfore , I told you the last day Manie came to see a reed shaken with the winde , some to cauill , & not to be either instructed or baptised ; But you must prooue that they were baptised , els you say nothing .

HVTCH.

I will take him in his owne words & wrap them vp togeather ; & thus he began to write with his owne hand .

Mr. Hutchinson replieth that the words Ad baptismum suum cannot be otherwise vnderstood since that the exhortations follownig doth plainly declare they did offer themselues to be baptised , & he doth not bring yt to prooue that they were baptised , but to force Mr. Greenw : to shew whither they were expulsed by Ihon , considering they made offer of themselues . If 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 may not be vnderstood of baptisme , but of the other part of Ihons ministerie , which was teaching & exhortation , as Mr. Greenwood supposeth , then 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

GREEN :

You falsifie the scriptures , wrest my words , denie your former affirmation , & seeke by al meanes to intangle by setting on foote new questions ; I haue often prooued vnto you that their comming vnto Ihons ministerie as vnworthy beholders , did not prooue they were baptised , neither did I say that ad babtismum suum was vnderstood onlie of his doctrine but of his whole in ministerie , wherof his baptisme was a part , yet they were not baptised for coming to see him ; & where you say you brought yt not to prooue they were baptised , yt is mamanifestlie vntrue , both by this & our former conference ; Againe till you haue prooued that they were baptised , you say nothing .

HVTCH.

Mr. Hutchinson prooueth that they were baptised , because Ihon saith afterward Ego baptizo vos

GREENW :

These words Ego baptizo vos are not spoken to those Pharifeis & Saduces , but generallie to such as Ihon baptised , for yt followeth he that cometh after me &c. shall baptise you with fire and the holie ghost Luke . 3. Verses 15.16 . which cannot be solely referred to the Phariseis , though they had beene baptised , but this is a summe of a seuerall doctrine .

HVTCH.

Ihon Baptist in his exhortation saith vnto them who hath forwarned you to flye from the wrath to come &c. this sheweth they came to baptised .

GREEN :

Still you would alter the question , neither doth this prooue that they were baptised , or yet that they did repent ; But rather on the contrarie Ihon publisheth their obstinacie to all the people & threatneth them with the iudgments of god .

D. BRI.

They might repent vpon his exhortation , & so be babtised .

GREEN :

There is no mention that they did repent .

D. BRI.

Yes these words which Mr. Hutchinson repeated Ego baptizo vos proueth yt .

GREEN :

I haue often shewed that those words are not spoken to them but to all such as were baptised by Ihon &c.

HVTCH.

Ihon Baptist knew none of their conuersations before or after therfore he stirred them vp to bring forth fruite worthy repentance , not that he see their fruites ; & so me thnikes this & that receauing of the Eunuch to baptisme so sodainlie , doth teach vs , not to debar anie from the sacraments whatsoeuer their life hath beene , yea though we knew yt not , they offring themselues & making declaration of faith .

GREEN :

In the true Church none can be debarred from the sacraments that make with knowledg true confession of their sins , & promise obedience to the word of God , & to be ordered by Christs ordinances ; but I see no such confession made by these Pharises neither yet by your communicantes . As for the Eunuche we shall shew an other manner of confession then the verball repetition of certaine words vsed in your Church .

D. BRI.

Why , doe you thinke our people haue not made a true confession of their sins , & promised amendment publikelie ? &c.

GREEN :

No your parish assemblies were neuer receaued into the true faith to submit themselues vnto Christs ordinances by true confession with knowledg & vnderstanding , for that confession they made or make , is but a verbal repetition of words as one might teach a parrat .

D. BRI.

Some doe vnderstand what they say though all doe not ; will you forsake the Church because some are ignorant ?

GREEN :

Neither doe those that vnderstand what they say bring forth fruits , neither are they seperated from the vnbeleebers , neither is that confession of words which anie of you haue made a sufficient confession to make you a Church , but the most part are Atheists & know not what they say .

D. BRI.

What haue none of vs made a true confession of faith , I neuer heard the whole profession we make denied before , neither that the most part doe not know what they professe , though I grant there be some such .

GREEN .

No , not with amendment of life ; For you remaine one bodie with the infidels , & denie in deed the true profession & practise of the gospell , & subiect your selues to the popish Courtes & Cannons . Heere we brake of in some displeasing wordes , I desiring D. Bright to write , if he would reason orderly ; He said he came but to beare Mr. Hutchinson companie . Then I demanded of Mr. Hutchinson if he had brought all his proofes he had to prooue that the Phariseis mentioned in the 3 of Mathew were baptised , he said yea , I said then I would oppose what reason I had to proue the contrarie ; he said yt was preposterous , yet he was content &c. so I set downe two reasons thus .

GREEN .

In the 7 Chap. of Luke the 30. verse the holy ghost setteth downe that those Scribes & Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were not baptised , 2. that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them generations of vipers whome he receaued to his baptisme .

HVTCH.

The place of Luke is not to be vnderstood of those Phariseis mentioned Math. 3.

GREEN :

Yes , the verie doctrine yt self of our Sauiour Christ going before in the 7 of Luke is euident to be drawen from their contempt of Ihons ministerie Math. 3.

HVTCH.

Nichodemus beleeued & manie other of the Phariseis .

GREEN :

That s not the question . The question is whether the Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Mathew were baptised by Ihon or no ; Luke saith they were not baptised of him .

HVTCH.

I will answere that of Luke , & take him in his owne wordes ; so he wrote with his owne hand thus .

Mr. Hutchinson saith the 7. of Luke doth not prooue that these Phariseis mentioned Math. 3. or that none of the Phariseis were baptised . The argument drawen from that place is of manie particulars , & the place of Luke is not generally but indefinitely conceiued .

Againe wheras Greenwood prooueth by the 7. of Luke , that the Scribes & Phariseis mentioned in the 3. of Math. came not to be baptised or ( which is the other part or Ihons ministerie ) to heare his doctrine , but to gaze on him , & to see him as a spectacle , yt is contrarie to the words of Math. 3. ad baptismum suum ; And therfore the Phariseis mentioned in the 7 of Luke cannot be vnderstood of the Phariseis Math. 3.

To the other , that Ihon Baptist ought not to call them generation of vipers , though yt need no answere , yet yt is false because Christ calleth Peter Sathan , & his Disciples men of litle faith , & an vnfaithful nation , Paule the Galatians Insensaios . &c.

GREEN .

Whiles I was about to write myne answere to these things , Mr. Hutchinson would needs be gone , promising againe at his next comming to prooue the Church of Rome the true Church : so I was constrained to set downe myne answere after-wards , which is this . Our sauiour Christ in the of Luke setteth downe two sorts of people which came to Iohns ministerie , the one of such as heard & obeid his doctrine , & were baptised , the other of such as heard & saw , but obeid not his doctrine , neither were baptised : Of which sort chiefly the Scribes & Phariseis are note vnrepentant despisers ; Therfore I meruell Mr. Hutchinson could so falsifye my words to excuse himself of open error , & affirme that I should say the Phariseis did not heare but onlie gaze vpon him , seing I said they did heare but did not obey neither were baptised . Further in the 7 of Luke , our Saviour speaking indefinitelie & generallie of Ihons ministerie , & of the Phariseis contempt , & that they were not baptised of him , yt were open contradiction to say they were baptised , & iniurie to the holie ghost except you can shew by expresse words that some of them were baptised by Ihon. As for Nichodemus , he was not called to the faith by Ihon , much lesse baptised by him . To the last point , Mr. Hutch . his examples of Christs reproof of Peter , or of his other Disciples &c. as also Paules reprehension of the Galathians , doth rather confirme my former assertions them infringe yt , seing they were reprooued for the present committing & standing in sin , & not vpon their repentance . So that still I affirme yt were contrarie to all the scriptures to call them generations of vipers , who had publikelie made confession of their sin , till they againe transgressed , wherof there is no mention either of their conuersion or transgressing after the confession of these Phariseis Math. 3. But at the first this controuersie might haue beene ended with this , that Ihon receaued none to be baptised , but such as were wonne by doctrine , & made publike confession ; So that either the Phariseis were not baptised , or els they repented : & then heere is no shelter for Mr. Hutchinsons euasion , to prooue by then example that all the land might in one day be receiued to their sacraments at the beginning of her Mats. reigne , without knowledg & true conuersion , & so remaine a Church of Atheists & idolaters euer since . God call forth his elect from this fellowship .

A summe of the conference had in the Fleet the 18. of the 3. moneth betwixt Mr. Hutchinson & D. Androes of the one partye , and Henry Barrow close prysoner there on the other , so neere as his frayle memorie could cary awaye .

THey being set downe in the parlor with one gentleman whom they brought with them & three of theire owne seruants , I being entered and come vnto them , they desired me to sit downe with them , and that we might all be couered &c. I demaunded to what end .

HVTCH.

Your Chamberfellow Mr. Greenwood hath told you the cause of owr comming .

BAR.

He told me that some had bene with him yesternight , But told me not the cause of your comming vnto me this day .

HVTCH.

We come to the same end ▪ to confer brotherly with you concerning certaine positions that you are sayd to hold . Hauing Some his booke & certaine articles of the Bishops before him .

BAR.

I desire nothing more then Christian conference , but hauing bene 2 yeares & well nye an half kept by the Bishops in close pryson , could neuer as yet obteine anie such conference , where the Booke of God might peaceablie decide all owr controuersies .

ANDR.

Whie the Booke of God cannot speake , which way should that decide owr controuersies ?

BAR.

But the spirit of God can speake , and which way is that spirit tryed or discerned but by the word of God ?

ANDR.

But the spirits of men must be subiect vnto men , will you not subiect your spirit to the iudgment of men ?

BAR.

The spirit of the prophets must be subiect to the prophets , yet must the prophets iudg by the word of God . And for me I willingly submit my whole faith to be tryed & iudged by the word of God , of all men .

ANDR.

All men cannot iudge , who then shal iudge of the word ?

BAR.

The word , and let euery one that iudgeth take hede that he iudge aright therby . wisdome is iustified of her Children .

ANDR.

This sauoreth of a pryuat spyrit .

BAR.

This is the spirit of Christ & his Apstles , & moste publique they submitted theire doctrines to the triall of all men by the word , So do I.

ANDR.

What are you an Apostle ?

BAR.

No , but I haue the spirit of the Apostles .

ANDR.

What , the spirit of the Apostles ?

BAR.

Yea the spirit of the Apostles .

ANDR.

What , in that measure ?

BAR.

In that measure that God hath imparted vnto me , though not in that measure that the Apostles had by anie comparison , yet the same spirit . There is but one spirit .

HVTCH.

Well , you will confer then , and we come to confer with you if you will .

BAR.

I am most willing of anie conference that may be to the glory of God and owr edefying .

HVTCH.

Well let vs go to it then . What say you to these propositions ? Hauing the Bishops articles , & Somes booke in his hand .

BAR.

For Somes booke I disclaimed it , and sayd the man had greatly iniured me : For anie propositions that I hold I was desirous to set downe myne owne propositions , and neuer required either the BBs. or Do. Some to set them downe for me .

HVTCH.

I was at the great Commission a yeare agoe , where you did set downe with your owne hand your owne answeres .

BAR.

Then did you see the Bishops offer me the greatest wronge that I suppose was euer offred to anie Christian in anie age . I was brought out of my close pryson & compelled there to answere of the sodaine vnto such articles as the Bishops in theire secret Councell had contriued against vs . I could not be admitted anie furder respire or consideration , neither anie present conference with anie of my bretheren , neither yet so much as a Copie of myne owne answers , though I most earnestly & humblie besought the same , but haue euer since bene kept in most streight emprisonment without companie , ayre , or comfort , neuer hearing of anie kinde of conference vntill now ; But haue in the meane while bene grevouslie sclandered , blasphemed and accused , by sparsed articles , printed priuiledged books , in theire pulpets , in open Session , and vnto owre honorable maiestrats .

HVTCH.

We will not heare your complaints because we cannot redresse your complaints .

ANDR.

For close emprisonment you are most happie : The solitarie & contemplatiue life I hold the most blessed life ; It is the life I would chuse .

BAR.

You speake philosophically but not Christianly . So sweete is the harmonie of Gods graces vnto me in the congregation , and the conuersation of the Saints at all tymes , as I think my self as a sparrow on the howse toppe when I am exiled from them . But could you be content also Mr. Androes to be kept from exercise & ayre so long togeather ? These are also necessarie to a naturall bodye .

ANDR.

I say not that I would want ayre . But who be those Saincts you speake of , where are they ?

BAR.

They are euen those poore Christians whom you so blaspheme & persequote , and now most vniustly hold in your prysons .

ANDR.

But where is theire Congregation ?

BAR.

Though I knew I purposed not to tell you .

HVTCH.

They are a companie of Sectories as you also are .

BAR.

Know you what a Sectorie is ?

HVTCH.

I know you to be Sectories & Schismaticks .

BAR.

What both ? It should seeme you know not what a Sectory is . But it is euident that your Church is deeply set , both in Schisme & apostacye .

HVTCH.

A Sectory & Schismatick are both one .

BAR.

That is not so . A Schismatick is euer cut from the Church , a Sectory is not so .

HVTCH.

They are both one , and come indifferently of the word 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 scindo findo .

ANDR.

There is difference betwixt 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 a schisme and an heresie ; the one signifying election the other a rent . But I neuer heard of anie difference betwixt a Schisme & a sect , both comming of one word .

BAR.

Though they both come of one roote , yet is not a Schisme and a Sect all one . Here they would needs haue a greeke Dictionary & greatly wished it . So I sent for scapula , which being fetched , did not satisfie vs concerning this point .

ANDR.

Secta in latine is the same that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 in greeke .

BAR.

I denie that ; There is difference betwene a Sect and a Schisme .

ANDR.

Secta coms of seco to cut , and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 of 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 to cut , what difference .

BAR.

I take the vse of the word Secta , rather to be of sequor to follow , because Secta a Sect signifieth via , a way , and great difference appeareth in the Scriptures betwixt a Schismaticke & a Sectory . A Sectory is allways in the Church , a Schismaticke allwayes out of the Church .

ANDR.

Where finde you this in the Scriptures ?

BAR.

I finde it 1. Cor. 3. and Hebr. 10. In the one place Sectories , in the other Schismaticks described .

ANDR.

The Sectories 1. Cor. 3. are Schismaticks .

BAR.

That cannot be ; they were cheif teachers of , & in the Church of Corinth , where the Apostle reproueth them because some held of , & followed one teacher , some of an other , as if one had held of Paul another of Apollos .

ANDR.

There contentions are called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

BAR.

What of that ; yet you see these were Sectories , and Schismaticks are they which haue cut themselues from the Church Hebr. 10. by leauing the fellowship .

HVTCH.

1 Cor. 11. The Apostle saith that Schismes are amongst them , Therfore in the Church .

BAR.

What is that to the purpose ; I hope you will not say that he can be a Schismatick vntill he haue rent himself from the Church . There shal be heresies & Schismes in the Church , yet no hereticke or Schismaticke vntill they be eyther conuinced & remaine obstinate , or else haue cut themselues from the Church , by forsaking the fellowship .

ANDR.

Augustine saith that an heretick breaketh the faith , a Schismatick charitie .

BAR.

A Schismatick also breaketh the faith , by departing from the communion of the Church .

ANDR.

A Schismatick may depart from the Church , and yet hold the faith .

BAR.

They cannot hold the faith which forsake the fellowship of the faith .

ANDR.

You speake ignorantly ; sondry Schismaticks haue not erred .

BAR.

I speake truly & as the holy ghost speaketh in the last verse of the 10. to the Hebr. But we are not of the withdrawing vnto destruction , but of faith to the conseruation of our soule . Here you see the keeping of the faith , set opposite against the departing from the fellowship .

ANDR.

Loking vppon my Testament 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 withdrawing . What is this to Schisme , The place you would alledge is higher vp in the Chapter .

BAR.

This is the place which I would now alledge , what say you vnto it , is not that withdrawing from the fellowship Schisme ? Can anie with-draw from the fellowship and yet kepe the faith ? is there anie saluation out of the Church , of saluation without faith ?

ANDR.

What is there none but a true faith , neuer read you of anie other ?

BAR.

Yet acknowledg I but one faith ▪ as there is but one God &c. which faith no Schismatick can haue ; and as for this false faith , Deuills & hereticks may also haue such faith : But you will not say that an heretick doth hold the faith , neither yet doth a Schismatick hold the faith .

ANDR.

Do not hipocrits make a shew of faith and yet they haue no faith ? what faith is theirs ?

BAR.

There is no comparison betwixt hipocrits & Schismaticks , the one whilest he stadeth making shew of the true faith both by life & profession , so far as we can iudge ; the other making open breach of faith . But after the hipocrite is once discouered , I say then he also appeareth to haue no faith .

HVTCH.

These are but 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , strife about words ; shal we begyn to reason to some purpose .

BAR.

If we may haue indifferent notaries that may iustly set downe what passeth on ech side , These speches were at the beginning of our conference which my memorie serueth not place aright . so that we may eyther of vs haue a copie therof , the better to expend & consider of ech others reasons , I am very willing at anie tyme or place so to reason .

HVTCH

Here is one that can write : and called one of his men .

BAR.

He is no such wryter as I would haue . Furder I would haue some witnesses , because you are two , & I am but one .

ANDR.

Rather then that shall be a hinderance I will goe vp & reason with Mr. Greenwood , and leaue you two togeather .

BAR.

That is not my meaning , I had rather you taried still . Only because you are two & I but one , therfore your testimonie may the rather be taken against me .

Ynke & paper being brought , and manie entred into the Parlor , we were first to set downe & agree of a Prop. which after much discourse to & fro , M. Hutch . set downe after this maner

HVTCH.

The parish Church of St. Bride is a true Church , to which anie Christian may ioyne in theire publique prayers and Sacraments as they are by lawe now established .

BAR.

The Parish of your St. Bride , as it consisteth of a confuse multitude of all sorts of people , mingled togeather in one body , standing vnder a false ministerye in Idolatry & disorder , is not a true established Church of Christ , and therfore not such as anie true Christian ought to ioyne vnto in theire prayers & Sacraments , as they stand in this estate .

Here Mr. Andros moued that seing the question was agreed vppon , & the time now far spent , we might depart vntill an other tyme : But I seing much companie gotten in , and nothing more heard against me then this proposition , desired them to say somwhat vnto it in that tyme that remayned .

First therfore Mr. Androes found much fault with my proposition , as disordered & vnlearnedly set downe , and therfore deserued no answere . I sayd that if it were true it suffised me , and vnlesse they could disproue it it must still stand in force against them . Here we had also much adoe about owr order of reasoning , whither it should be after their schole maner , by Logicke or no. I desired to reason after a Christian maner , according vnto truth , though not in logicall formes , where after some discourse of the necessitie & vanitie of the arte of logicke , I said I would not bynde the maiestie of the Script . to logicall formes , whereabout we should haue more vaine cauilles , and spend more tyme , than about the discussing of the question ; and that my conscience could neither be conuinced or instructed with anie syllogismes so much as with the weight of reason & force of truth .

Wherefore at length they condiscending vnto me , denied with one consent my whole proposition as false & vntrue .

I also denied theire proposition as altogeather false , and willed them to make profe of it . But still vrdging me to proue myne , I condiscended so to doo .

BAR.

In my generall proposition are conteined fower principall heads . Namely , 1. The confuse commixture of al sorts of people . 2. Theire antichristian & vnlawfull ministerye , 3 Theire false & idolatrous maner of worshipping of God , and of theire whole ministration both of the word and Sacraments &c. 4. And theire popish & antichristian order & ecclesiasticall gouernment . From all which seuerall heads infinite reasons may be drawne . But because all these cannot be handled at once , I will begyn with some one of them . And as order requireth ( if it please you ) I will begin to shew that this people , as they stand in these parishes in this confusion &c. are not in this estate capable of the Sacraments & ministery of Christ .

ANDR.

Order requireth that you should rather begin to disproue owr ministerie first .

BAR.

There must be sheepe before there be a flocke , A flocke before there be a shepheard .

ANDR.

A flocke & a Shepheard are relatiues .

BAR.

There must be a flocke before there can be a shepheard , because the people must chuse the Pastor .

ANDR.

That is a deuise of yours .

BAR.

Will you call the Commandement of Christ my deuise ?

HVTCH.

Your whole proposition is denied , proue that .

BAR.

My proposition being so large I must begyn with some one part therof ; I will first therfore begin with the people of this parish .

BAR.

Arg. 1. The people of this parish are a confuse companie of Infidells , Idolatort , ignorant , prophane & open wicked ; Therfore no such communion to which a Christian my ioyne in theire prayers & sacraments in this estate .

ANDR.

Infidells , what Infidels ? Know you what Infidells are ?

BAR.

I take them to be vnbeleiuers , such as haue no true faith .

ANDR.

What because they haue no true faith , therfore Infidells ?

BAR.

Yea because they haue no true faith , therfore vnbeleeuers or Infidells .

HVTCH.

We receaue no infidells into owr Church , if you meane by Infidells 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 without faith .

BAR.

I meane by Infidells , men without faith , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 .

HVTCH.

What , know you what 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 is here , it is 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 priuatiue .

BAR.

And so I vnderstand it ; men distitute of faith .

ANDR.

Can you put no difference betwixt Infidells & Idolaters , what thinke you the Papists to be Infidells ?

BAR.

I know the word infidell to be more large , yet hold I all Idolaters infidells , and the Papists infidells , because such grosse Idolaters .

ANDR.

We thinke more reuerently of the Papists than so , though they be Idolaters .

BAR.

But Moses & Paul think so of all Idolaters , though Israelites , though Iewes , though Apostataes ; Saying that what they offer they offer vnto Deuills . Leuit. 17. Deut. 12. 1 Cor. 10.

HVTCH.

Will you call hipocrits , Infidells ? Because we receaue some hypocrits , therfore Infidells ?

BAR.

Hipocrits whilest they make & hold the same profession and faith with vs cannot by vs be discerned , or iudged by the Church , vntill the Lord furder discouer them , by breaking out into some error or transgression . But infidells are such as eyther are neuer come , or are fallen from the faith ; Of which sort I affirme all the people as they thus stand in your parishes to be .

HVTCH. & ANDR.

We denie that , proue it .

BAR.

They stand one with the world , vncalled forth vnto the faith . Therefore they are such .

ANDR.

Wat new phrase is this , stande one ? what meane you by stande one ?

BAR.

The phrase is not new but vsual through all the Scriptures . I meane by standing one with the world , that they remaine one body with the world & the world with them , vncalled forth vnto the faith &c.

HVTCH. ANDR.

We denie it : they stand not one with the world .

BAR.

I thus proue it . They stande one with this whole land , & with all the wicked & abhominable persons thereof , Therfore they stand one with the world .

HVTCH. ANDR.

We denie both the Antecedent & consequent .

BAR.

In prouing the land to be of the world , the Consequent will of necessitie followe .

ANDR.

We denie this land to be of the world .

BAR.

That land & people that are not truly called out & gathered vnto Christ are still of the world . For owr sauiour saith vnto his Disciples I haue chosen you out of the world &c. Ioh. 15. But this land hath not as yet bene truly called out & gathered vnto Christ , Therfore it is of the world and the world of it . For I am sure it is neither holyer not better then Israell & Iudea were at the comming of owr Sauiour .

HVTCH. ANDR.

Our land is truly called & gathered vnto Christ , and so are the people of this parish .

BAR.

Christs Church allwayes consisteth of a holy free people , seperat from the world , rightly called & gathered vnto Christ , walking forth in faith & obedience ; But the people of this Parish and generally of the land haue not as yet bene thus seperate from the wicked of the land , neither as yet bene thus gathered vnto Christ , but stand mingled togeather with all the wicked &c. as theire present estate sheweth , Therfore they are no people capable of the holy ministerie & Sacraments of Christ &c.

HVTCH. ANDR.

The people of this parish , as also of the other parishes in the land haue bene & are truly called vnto Christ , neither is there anie open wicked receaued into , or suffred in the Church .

BAR.

Al the land at this day is of your Church without the exception of anie one person ▪ But I am sure you will not say but there are manie wicked in the land , Therfore you are not seperate from the wicked .

HVTCH.

I know no such wicked as you speake of , If you know anie you shall do well to complaine that they may be cast out .

BAR.

Alas I know none other . But whie were they thus receaued ? Or how should they be cast out ?

ANDR.

There were two cast out the last Sonday here in London , Therfore we seperate the wicked and keepe them not amongst vs as you say .

BAR.

And had you no more apparantly wicked but two worthie to be cast out ?

HVTCH. ANDR.

We know no more .

BAR.

That is well ; I report me to all your Gaoles &c. And were not these two cast out by the power of Antichrist , by some Chancellor or Commissarie , or some of that crewe ?

ANDR.

What if they were ?

Bar.

Then you cast out Sathan by the power of Sathan .

ANDR.

Proue that ?

BAR.

That were to digresse from the present question , which is not whome & howe you now cast out , but whom & how you receaued and kepe in your Church , which I affirme to be all the prophane multitude of the land , without anie true seperation at the first , and so you continue .

ANDR.

That is not so , I tell you we excommunicated , two the last day , Therfore we haue seperation .

HVTCH.

We denie your Assertion , we receiued not all , or anie prophane into owr Church at anie tyme .

BAR.

In Q. Maries reigne all the land was fallen into open Apostacie and Idolatrie ; In this estate were they all found at the begynning of owr Q. Elizabeths reigne , and so all at one instant vppon her first setting vpp this religion receiued into the body of your Church , had this ministerie set ouer them , these Sacraments administred vnto them &c. in your Parishes as they now stand . Therfore all the prophane were receiued into your Church without choise or seperation .

HVTCH.

There were none then receaued but such as made true profession , and we can neyther requyre nor discerne more .

BAR.

They could make no true profession that had no knowledge of the truth . But the people that tyme had no knowledge of the truth , Therfore they could make no true profession so sodenlye .

HVTCH.

They all had knowledg of the truth , They repented and sorrowed for theire synnes as appeareth in the Confession .

BAR.

Thus I proue that they had neyther true faith nor repentance . None can haue true faith & repentance but such as are called thervnto by the preaching of the gospell ; But all this people were receiued into your Church without the preaching of the gospell going before ; Therfore they were receiued into your Church without true faith & repentance ; For all were receiued into your Church at one instant , this ministerie at the first dash set ouer them all &c.

Here Mr. Androes began a large discourse , that the Iewes had two maner of excommunications , The one of the heathens , the other of the Publicanes The one they banished from comming into theire Temple , The other they suffred to come thither , yet abhorred they theire companie & conuersation in ciuile things . And here would needs know of me which of these were the greater .

BAR.

Your question is to no purpose neither is your assertion true ; The Iewes had not two kinds of excommunication , They did not excommunicate the heathen . And in that they abhorred the companie of the Publicanes in ciuile conuersation whilest they admitted them to the Temple , they synned .

ANDR.

Let him be vnto thee as a beathen & a Publicane . Is ther not two kinde of excommunications mentioned amongst the Iewes , one to the heathen , another vnto the Publicane ?

BAR.

No ; there is no excommunication of the Iewes mencioned : The heathen they could not excommunicate , because they were neuer in communion with them : The Publicanes they did not excommunicate , because they still admitted them vnto the Temple .

ANDR.

I will shew you in Scripture that the Gentiles were not suffred to enter into the Temple ; Therfore they were excommunicate : And the other was a ciuile discommuning .

BAR.

It should seeme you know not what excommunication is . They were neuer admitted to enter into the Temple , Therfore they were not excommunicat ; For none can be excommunicat but he that hath bene in communion . But the heathen was neuer in Communion . As for this ciuile discommuning of such as are still held members of the Church , it is a most vngodly deuise ; For to cast out or abhor in owr common meats such as the Lord receiueth vnto his Table , were verie vnchristian .

ANDR.

You vnderstand not the place ; Did not owr Sauiour Christ there speake of excommunication , willing them to haue such as refused to heare the Church in detestation , as the Iewes held theire heathens & publicanes , whom they excommunicat .

BAR.

Oure Sauiour there speaketh not of excommunication of the Iewes , but of the excommunicat Christians , willing all his Disciples to shunne & eschue such as heare not the Church , as the Iewes did the heathens & the Publicanes , to haue neither spirituall nor ciuile communion with them . But what is all this to the purpose , what answere do you make to my former reason ?

HVTCH.

Which reason ? You haue as yet made none , but proued the same whith the same .

BAR.

This reason . All the people of the Land were receiued into the Church at one instant ; had this ministrie & these Sacraments &c. without being called vnto faith & repentance by the preaching of the gospell . Therfore they were receiued into your Church without true faith and repentance , because it is impossible to haue true faith & true repentance without the preaching of the gospell going before .

ANDR.

Was not the Eunuche as sodainly receiued into the Church , had the Sacraments administred vnto him , with as little knowledg as they ?

BAR.

No , he was called by the preaching of Phillip , and had more knowledg then anie of these people , or well nigh anie of theire teachers then had , being all generally plunged in apostacy & Idolatry immediatly before .

ANDR.

Could he bewray greater ignorance , then to doubt of so Mr. Andros read the place out of Esai . plaine a place , as none in the Scriptures coud be more manifest . He was wounded for our transgressions , he was broken for our iniquities , The chastisment of our peace vppon him , & with his stripes we are healed , of whom else could this be vnderstood but of Christ ?

BAR.

I not loking vppon the place as Luke recordeth it Act. 8. Espied not then how craftely Mr. Androes falsefied & misaledged the text ; Yet I added this ; He was led as a Shepe vnto the slaughter , & like a lambe domb before his sherer , So opened he not his mouth . My answere therfore herevppon was , that it was no ignorant question . But that the greatest Rabbine of those times might well haue asked the question , seing it is so common a thing in the Prophetts , to haue figured manie things that came vnto Christ in theire owne persons , as appeareth euery where in the booke of psalmes , and also in this prophecy , and almost in all other . Is it not said in this prophet , Behold , I & the children that thou hast giuen me , are as signes & wonders in Israell . might not this question then be well asked whither the Prophet spake it in his owne person or of an other ?

ANDR.

It was a most ignorant question . Could anie beare or be broken for owr transgressions but Christ only ?

BAR.

But the Prophet might be led as a sheope vnto the slaughter &c. And therfore the question was according vnto knowledge , and such as without knowledg could not be moued ; Or vnlesse it were knowne , that text not be vnderstood . This Eunuche was a godly & zealous Proselite before Phillip met with him .

ANDR.

What , will you say godly before he had the knowledge of Christ ?

BAR.

Yea I say godly , and that before he knew that Christ was exhibited , & come in the flesh .

ANDR.

Then belike in that estate the Eunuche might haue bene saued , if so be he had dyed before he had heard that Christ was come in the flesh & ascended .

BAR.

Yea I doubt not therof .

ANDR. HVTCH.

That is heresie , will you set that downe vnder your hande ?

BAR.

Yea that I will , and abide by it also to be truth , and proue both you hereticks if you obstinatly affirme and teach the contrarye .

ANDR.

Whie then there were two faithes , two wayes of saluation , one for Iewes , an other for Christians .

BAR.

It followeth not ; There was but one faith , one saluation , common to all beleiuers from the begynning ; Christ to day , & yesterday , & for euer the same . The Iewes beleiued in Christ to come , The Gentiles then in Christ come ; Both in Christ ; Both saued by faith in Christ . The Iewes that had not as yet seene the person , nor heard of the ministerie of Christ , dying in that estate were vndoubtedly saued . The Lord bare much & a long tyme with the Iewes , and gaue a tyme of remouing these things .

HVTCH.

The Eunuche made a true profession when he confessed IESVS to be the Sonne of GOD , & was then baptised ; Therfore owr people making as good confession , whie should they not also as sodainly be receiued to the Sacraments & ministerie ?

BAR.

It hath oft bene sayd that your people do not neither could make so good a confession as the Eunuche because they had not the preaching of the gospell going before theire confession , neither shewed they such fruits of faith as the Eunuche did , who was a true worshipper of GOD before .

ANDR.

The Gaoler in the Acts was as sodainly called , baptised , and shewed no more fruites of faith then these did .

BAR.

That is not so ; he washed the Apostles stripes , administred comfort vnto them , & foode vnto them after that he & his howse-hold had heard & beleiued the word preached . But I neuer heard of anie Church erected in this maner , without the word preached going before as yours is .

ANDR.

They had the word preached in king Edwards time .

BAR.

What boted that , when they all fell to Idolatrie in Q. Maries time , and all without being called to repentance by the gospell , were receiued into your Church &c.

HVTCH.

The confession they made was sufficient .

BAR.

That is denied and proued insufficient , because it was not wrought by the preaching of the gospell going before . Answere that reason .

Herevppon Mr. Hutchinson toke the pen & ynke & wrote to this effect .

HVTCH.

The confession of sinne that is publiquely made in the Church of England , is sufficient to enable all such as say it sincerely , to the ministerie & Sacraments of the Church .

BAR.

The verball confession that is prescribed & vsed in the Church of England , is not sufficient to enable the people that say it , or say Amen vnto it , vnto the ministrie and Sacraments of Christ ; Neither could they make anie true or sincere confession , without the preaching of the word going before , to call them therevnto .

Vppon this issue we for that tyme ceased ; They affirming this verball confession in this maner sayd , to be sufficient to enable all the people so saying it ouer , And I for the reasons aboue said , denying the same .

Mr. Hutchinson put vp the paper wherein these Arguments and propositions were wrytten into his bozome , but promised me a Copie ; wherevnto I condiscended , so that vppon the next conference I might keepe the paper .

There arose controuersie betwixt Mr. ANDR. & me concerning these words 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 He affirming them to be all one ; I , to be very dyuerse ; the one signifying , vicinity ; the other , disiunction of habitations ; he alledging the ancyent vse ; And I both the ancient & present ; affirming all to be corrupt .

Mr. Androes also in reasoning with me oft swore by his honestie , for which I reproued him for swearing vnlawfully & making his faith an Idole . But he said I knew not what an oth or an Idole meant .

Mr. Androes also vsed this word Luck . I sayed there was no fortune or luck ; but all things came to passe by the prouidence of God . To prooue Luck he torned in my Testament to the 10. of Luke ver. 31. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 &c. And torned in a leafe vppon the place , and as he was going out willed me to consider of it . which is no more then to come to passe , although sodainly or vnloked for to vs , yet by the direction & prouidence of God vnto vs ; without which a sparrow falleth not vppon the ground . So that though the heathens abused this word , to chance & fortune , yet is it both contrary to Christian faith , and not the first and proper signification of the word .

A summe of such cheif poynts as were handled in the second conference , betwixt Mr. Hutchinson , Do. Androes on the one partie , and Iohn Greenwood & Henry Barrow prisoners in the Fleet , on the other partie , vppon the 13. of the 4. Moneth . The discourse whereof orderly to set downe we cannot , all things were so disorderly handled therein by them who sought nothing so much as to obscure & turne away the truth by theire schole learning , manifold cauills & shifts , shameles denyall of manifest truthes , & most vnchristian contumelies , scoffes , & reproches against owre persons .

1. FIrst they hold , by especially Do. Androes , that the scriptures now ought not to decide controuersies , because the scriptures cannot speake .

2. That the scriptures ought to be iudged & interpreted by the ancyent fathers wrytings , & not by other scriptures , or the circumstances of the text .

3. That because the spirits of the Prophets must be subiect to the Prophets , therfore the wrytings of these dead men ought to iudge & interpret the scriptures .

4. That the scriptures ought to be interpreted & expounded by Logick .

5. That no man may preach the word , or interpret scriptures , but he that hath an office in the Church .

6. Being pressed with Acts. 13. ver. 15. And theire owne note vppon the same in theire Geneua Bible , he vtterly reiected both that translation & the notes therevppon , saying yt was inhibited to be vsed in theire Church .

7. They further said , that Paul was a minister of that Synagogue , because he was a Pharisey .

8. There is no Church where there is no administracyon of sacraments . Being pressed that the Pastor alone cannot make a Church , neither that vppon the death or deposing of the Pastor , at wich tyme the Church for a season is without sacraments , as also that the host of the Israelites were a long tyme in the wildernes without sacraments ; they only answered vnto the last , & said , that the Israelites were not without sacraments at anie tyme , because they alwaies had the pillar of fire .

9. Being shewed that this pillar was no sacrament of the couenant prescribed by God to be vsed of the Church , they still affirmed that the Church could not be said to be without the sacraments , whiles they had these Sacramentall signes .

10. They held that Christ after his death descended into hell .

11. Do. Androes indeuored to prooue it by Colos. 2. ver. 15. because Christ is there said to haue triumphed ouer the principalities & powers ; his consequent & collection being denyed & shewed to be a popish dreame , & to haue no groundworke or warrant from this place , he sought to escape by denying the english translation , which saith and hath tryumphed ouer them in the same cross , because it is in some copies tryumphing them in himself .

12. Being pressed that Christs spirit was in the hands of his father , Luke . 23.46 . his bodie in the graue , therfore he could not after his death descend into hell . To this Do. Androes answered , that his soule being in the hand of God might be in hell , because the hand & power of God was euery where ; Yt was then said that Christs soule was in paradise , & that all the soules of the blessed were then by that reason in hell aswell as his , yea Christ his soule now might so be said to be in hel likewise , because the power of God is euery where : But Christ having finished all his suffrings , & performed them vppon his crosse . Iohn . 19. had now nothing to do in hell .

There remayned an Argument at our last conference without answere , which was this .

None can be called to a true profession of faith , without the preaching of the gospell going before ; But all the people in these parishes were receaued into your Church without the preaching of the gospell going before ; Therfore they were receaued without a true profession .

13. Do. Androes here denyed the minor . & said the people were not receaued into theire Church & had the sacraments delyuered vnto them before they had bene taught half a yeare . Being demaunded what the people in the meane while were to be esteemed , whether faithfull or idolatrous , whether members or not members of theire Church ; he said , they were neither to be esteemed faithfull nor vnbelieuers , neither members nor not members , but they where all this while in membring .

14. Being demaunded what those preachers were to be esteemed , whither ministers or not ministers vnto this people , they answered that they were ministers .

Argument . 1. There can be no minister but vnto a flocke ; But here by your owne saying was no flocke at this tyme Therfore these could be no ministers vnto them .

15. They here denyed the Maior , & affirmed that there may be a minister without a flocke .

Argument . 2. A shepheard can be no shepheard ouer goates or swyne , but only ouer sheepe ; The ministerie of Christ cannot be set ouer infidells , or ouer anie people to take chardge or cure ouer them , vntill those people be called vnto , & haue made profession of the faith .

But here the people were not as then called vnto , neither had made profession of the faith : Therfore the ministerie of Christ could not at that tyme be set ouer them , in that estate .

16. They still denied the Maior , & gaue this reason therof , because the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church .

Wee graunted that the vnbeleeuers might heare the ministerie of the Church , but from hence it followeth not that they had interest in the ministerie before they were members of the Church ; It is one thing to heare the ministerie of the Church , & an other thing to be a member of the Church .

17. Then they brought Pauls example to proue that a ministerie might be set ouer infidells , because he was said to be the teacher of the Gentiles , & all the Apostles willed to goe and teach all nations .

To this it was answered , that Paul stood no minister neither tooke gouernment or chardge ouer anie heathen which were not called to the faith , & ioyned to the Church , still putting difference betwixt teaching the heathen the truth , & exercising a ministerie ouer them .

18. They alledged 1 Pet. 1. that the Apostle there tooke chardge & care ouer strangers .

Yt was answered that those strangers were Iewes , called to the faith , dispersed through manie regions , as the next verse . 1 Pet. 1.2 . & Iames 1. sheweth .

19. Paul wrote himself a father of the Corinths . though ye haue manie teachers , yet haue ye but one father .

Yt was still answered that those Corinthians were beleeuers .

Argument . 3. There can be no communion betwixt the beleeuers & vnbeleeuers ; therefore the infidells can haue no communion with the Church in the ministerie thereof , or in anie spirituall action .

Being demaunded by them what we meant by communion , we answered , such communion as is spoken of Act. 2.42 . in doctrine , in prayer , in the sacraments , in mutuall communication in all Christian duties , & how none were receaued to this communion , before they were ioyned as members vnto the Church .

Argument . 4. There can now be no Pastor ouer anie people by the rules of Christi testament , but where a mutuall couenant is made betweene the Pastor & the people , he bounde to teach , guide , & gouerne them , they againe to obey him in the Lord : But the infidells haue made no such couenant with the Pastor ; Therfore &c.

20. Do. Androes said , the Pastor ought not to gouerne ; that he himself was a Pastor , yet no guyde or gouernor of the flocke ; and that in the Church there were gouernors ouer the Pastors , as Bishops .

We answered that the word Bishop or Ouerseer was a generall name , common to the Pastor , teacher , & Elders , which name importeth gouernment & care . Phil. 1.1 . Act. 20.28 .

21. Do. Androes here said , that the word bishop was not common vnto either the Pastor , teacher , or Elders , but vnto other higher gouernors .

We answered , that vnto their ministerie the name of a bishop did not indeed accord , but only vnto their Lord bishops , & desired some proofe of this their assertion out of the word of God .

22. Vnto which they answered , that all their ministerie was by positiue lawes .

We then said that it must needs follow , that all their religion & worship was pollitick also , & that ministerie which Christ hath not prescribed in his Testament is antichristian .

At lentgh , after manie bitter & reprochfull speaches against vs , we returned againe to our former discourse , & framed this Argument vnto the rest .

Argument . 5. The people now are to make choice & proofe of their Paestor : But thei without the faith cannot make choice of theyr Pastor : Therfore &c.

Here they said that this & allowre other positions were fond , vaine , & foolish ; & this was all the answere we could get of them .

Mr. Hutchinson at the breaking vp requyred me Henry Barrow to set downe some reasons whie I refused to ioine vnto their Church , that the people present might be satisfied ; whervppon I set him downe vnder mine hand as followeth .

The reasons whie I Henry Barrow cannot ioine with the Church of England , yeilded by me the 13. of the 4. Moneth .

1. The people as they stand are not called orderly to the faith , but stand mingled togeather in confusion .

2. The ministerie set ouer them is not the true ministerie of the gospell which Christ hath appointed to his Church in his testament .

3. The administration & worship of this Church is not according to the word of God .

4. The ecclesiasticall gouernment , Courts , officers & Cannons are not according to the testament of Christ , but new & antichristian .

Vntill all these points be eyther approoued by the word of God , or reformed , I cannot consent to ioyne vnto this Church in this estate .

These things I witnesse & subscribe . H. Barrow .

I Iohn Greenwood , being demaunded by Mr. Hutchinson whether I would set downe myne hand vnto this , or ells yeild some other cause of my dislike , refused to do either of both , vntill he had prooued the Church of Rome to be the true Church of Christ as he had twise promised , & at neither of his commings would performe .

A breif answeare to certayne sclaunderous Articles & vngodlie calumniations sparsed abrode by the BBs & theire adherents against diuerse faithfull & true Christians her Maiesties loyall and louinge Subiectes to cullour theire owne vngodly & tyrannicall dealing with them , & to bring them into hatred both with Prince and people .

Article 1. They hold that the Lords praier or anie sell prayer is blasphemy , & they neuer vse anie prayer for the Queene as supreame head vnder Christ of the Church of England .

Answeare WE hold that the Lords praier ( so commonly called ) is sacred & Canonicall scripture , conteyning a most absolute & perfect rule & grownd worke wherby all faith full prayers ought to be framed , gyuen by owr Sauyour Christ for the instruction and confirmation of his Disciples that theire prayers might be according to the will & glory of God : But that the very forme of words as they are in theis petitions were gyuen & instituted as a sett & stinted prayer , or that owre Sauiour Christ & his Apostles haue euer vsed yt in that maner , we finde not in the scriptures , where we see theire prayers according to theire present occasions &c. set downe in other words , & no mention made of such prescript & lymited saying of this as they requyre & enioyne : Moreouer , if they were as ignorant what belongeth to true prayer , or of the true vse of this forme for prayer as they seeme , yet euen theyre owne practize in theire pulpyts & Liturgies doth excuse vs thus far forth & condemne them . For her Maiestie we praye both publiquely & pryuatly , day & night at all tymes & places according to owre duties as becommeth vs , and god willing wyll not cease so to do whilst owre lyues shall last .

Article 2. That all set prayers or stinted prayers , or read seruice are but meere bablinge in Gods sight & plaine Idolatrie .

TO this we answeare that we are taught in the Scriptures a a Iohn . 4. That God is a Spirit & wil be worshipped in Spirit & truth : we finde further in the Script . & in owr selues b b Rom. 8.26 . That God gyveth to all his Children ▪ and hath gyuen to vs his holy Spirit to help owr infirmities & to teach vs to pray according to his will in his worde : we are also there taught . c c 1. Io. 2.27 . That we neede no man to teach vs but as the same anoyntinge teacheth vs of all things . moreouer we finde not anie such deuised prayers or stinted seruice perscribed to the Church by those excellent & perfect workemen Thappostles ; d d 1. Cor. 3.11.12 . & ● ▪ neyther yet anie Commaundment or authoritie gyuen by them vnto the church to make , bring in , ympose , or receiue , Matt. 15.9 . Coll. 2.20 . Gall. 5.1 . anie such stinted , deuised , & Apochripha seruice where only the worde of God & the graces of Gods spirit ought to be heard : For these causes we esteeme & refuse all such deuised Liturgies as superfluous , will not worshipp inuentions & traditions of men , besids & contrary to Gods reuealed worde , to the graces of Gods Spirite , & to owr Christian libertie ; Wherfore we wonder at the ignorance of theise blynde Pharesies , which knowing neither the right ende , Reue. 10.4 . 1. Thes. 5.19 vse , nor meanes of prayer themselues , yet dare in this maner teach , correct , & quench the Spirit of God in others by ymposing the chaffe & leauen of their own lypps vppon the whole Church , yea as a sacryfice vppon God himself will he nyl he .

Article 3. They teache their is no head or Supreame gouernor of the Church of Christ : And that the Queene hath none authoritie in the Church to make lawes Ecclesiasticall .

WE hold Christ to be the only a a Ephes. 1.22.23 . heade of his Church , & the greatest Princes in the world to be but members of his Church : We hold her Maiestie to be b b 1. Pet. 2.13 supreame gouernor of al persons estats & causes whatsoeuer with in her Dominions : We renounce the Pope & all popishe iurisdictions ouer eyther Conscience , Queene , or Contrye , and we acknowledg no other Prince , potentate , or power forreigne , or Domestical , Ecclesiasticall or Ciuill , to haue anie superiour or equall authoritie within her Maiesties Dominions : We hold Christ to be the only c c Deu. 18.15 Matt. 17.5 . Acts. 3.22 . Lawgyuer in his Church , and that he hath already ( beinge the d d Heb. 3.6 . Sonne , & as faithfull in his howse as his seruant MOSES in his Tabernacle ) established sufficient Lawes for the gouerment of his Church vnto the worlds end in his last e e 1. Cor. 2.16 will & Testament ; which no Prince , nor all the Princes in the world nor the whole Church may f f Gal. 3.15 . alter g g Deu. 4.2 . Reu. 22.18.19 . add vnto or take from , vppon the paynes contayned in the Scriptures . But both Prince & people ought with all their endeuour , as farr as the Lorde hath gyuen them knowledge & meanes , to put the same in execution .

Article 4. They teache that a lay man may beget faith , And that we haue no neede of publique administration .

WE know not what you meane by your old popish termes of lay men , we holde al true beleyuers Ecclesiasticall & a a 1. Pet. 2.5 . Reu. 1.6 . spirituall , yea and that anie such beleyuer may beget faith , and for euident proofe thereof referr you to these places of scripture Luke . 10.1 . &c. Luke . 8.39 . Acts. 8.4 . Acts 11.19 . &c. Acts. 18.26 . 1 Corin. 14. entier 1 Corinth. 7.16 . Phil. 2.15.16 . 1 Pet. 3.2 . 1 Pet. 4.10 . 2 Tim. 2.2 . 1 Thessa. 5.11 . &c. Iam. 5.19.20 . which shall eyther instruct of conuince your herein . Yet hold we the publique administracyon of the word by PASTORS , TEACHERS and the PROPHETS in the church by far , & without all comparyson more excellent , more blessed , & more to be desired , and iudg your synne and iniquitie by so much the more heynouse and euen come to the full , in that you so bitterly with all your gall and spyte resist the holy ghost , by hindring vs his seruants from proceeding to so heauenly & gracious a meanes of owr saluation , 1. Thes. 2.15.16 . Mat. 23.13 . and earnestly with all your forces oppose your selues against God , in that you will neither enter your selues into his kingdome nor suffer such as would .

Article 5. They condemne all comming to Churche , all preaching , all Institution of Sacraments , and say that all the Ministers are sent by God in his anger to deceaue the people .

THe Lord condemneth , and we according to his Commaundement shunne all false Churches , false & deceitfull preaching , and false Institutions of Sacraments , and we belieue as the Lord hath said a a 2. Thes. 2.10.11.12 . Reu. 13.13.14 . Ren. 19.20 . that all false Ministers are sent of God in his wrath to deceaue the people , of which sorte we protest , your publique parrish assemblies as they stand in this Confusion , disorder , and Idolatrie , your publique preaching , Sacraments , and ministrie to be , and are ready by the manifest euidence of Gods vndoubted word to approue the same to your faces , it anie Christian audience or indifferent tryall might be granted .

Article 6. They affirme that the people must reforme the Church and not tarye for the Magistrate , And that the Primatiue Churche sued not to Courts or Parliaments , nor wayted vppon Princes pleasures ; But we make Christ to attend vppon Princes , & to be Subiect to their lawes and gouernment .

WE goe not about to reforme your a a Ios. 6.26 . Iere. 51.9.26 . Romish Bisshopricks , Deanes , officers ; Aduocates , Courts , Cannons , neither your popish Priests , halfe-Priests , Ministers , all which come out of the bottomlesse pytt : But we leaue those merchantmen & their wares with the b b Ier. 50.15 16. Reu. 18.6 . curse of God vppon them vntill they repent : We are also taught in the word , that the kingdome of God commeth not by c c Luke . 17.20 . obseruation , neither is brought in by the d d zach. 4.6 . Isay. 40.10 . Iere 17.5 . arme of flesh , but by the spirit of God , and by the power of his worde e e Mat. 3.3.8 . working in the harts of all Christs faithfull seruants true repentance from deade workes and all things that displease the Lord euen as sone as they are reproued vnto them by his worde , as also a true conuersion of theire harts and soules vnto the Lord , with an earnest loue , continuall zeale , and ready desire to put in practise what soeuer the Lord sheweth them to be his will in his worde without all f f Luke . 9.59 . &c. delaye or g g Luke . 14.18 . &c. excuse whosoeuer forbyd or Commaunde the contrary : We are to obey God rather then men , and if anie man be ignorant let him be h h 1. Cor. 14.38 . Reu. 22.11 . ignorant stil ; We are not to stay from doing the Lords Commaundement i i Mat. 15.12 &c. Gal. 1.10 . vppon the pleasure or offence of anie .

Article 7. That the Booke of common prayer is a pregnant I dole and full of abhominations , a peice of Swynes flesh , and abhomination to the Lorde .

WE haue shewed in owr answeare to your second Article what we thinke of all Apocrypha & deuised Liturgies , when they are brought into & emposed vppon the Church : But seinge you are so zealous for the syluer shryne of your DIANA , and wayle for your Portuise , we affirme it to be as you report a ( PREGNANT IDOLE ) which hath in it an infinite sorte of Idols , & is full of abhominations & bytter fruite . As may appeare by the double Idols of your solempne & double feasts of your hollomass , Christmass , Candlemass , Easter , Whitsontyde , Trynitie sonday &c. Your Lady dayes , Saints dayes with the Eaues , feasts fasts , and deuised worshipp vnto them , which fill a great part of your booke , Also your lents , Rogacōns , ash-wensdayes with the bitter cursings & comminations , Your mawnday & holy Thursdayes , your goodfrydayes with their peculiar worshipps , Your deuision of the yeare into your Aduent , Septuagesima , Easter and trinety Sonday with theire Collects & worshipps servinge to euery weeke in the yeare , yea to euery day in the weeke , except such feasts & Dayes as are aboue named , To all which you add your blasphemous abuse of the Scriptures shredding and rendinge them from theire naturall sence & true vse , to bende & applye them to Your Idole feasts & dayes ; Your abhominable Collects ouer , for , & to the deade , Your celebrating dayes to Angells , as your Michaells day , your making Archangells there and making Michaell a Creature . As also your high prophanacion of the Sacraments peruerting changing & corrupting the holy institution of Christ with your popish deuises , sigens , Godfathers , Godmothers , with theire ridiculous dialogue betwene Priest , Cleark , Godfathers , Godmothers , & the infant , and the rashe , vndiscreete , and vnpossible vowe of the saide gossipps , Your purifications , & Churching of the Woman , with her offring then for her self , & at the Christnings ( as they call it ) for the Childe , your hastie baptisme by the midwifes , your bishopping or second baptising of Children ; Neither is the other Sacrament free from your pollutions , It is sold for 2 pence a head , th' institucion of Christ broken and changed in the delyuery , a stagelike Dyalogue betwene Priest , Cleark , people added , new Apochrypha lawes and iniunctions added , to the Priest to stand at the North end of the table &c. to the people to kneele , verse & Collect in their appointed tymes & tornes . Moreouer your popish & Idolatrous housling the sick with this Sacrament , Thus prostituting & selling both Sacraments to the open vnworthie & their seede ; As also your popish maner of visiting & pardoning the syck , wherwith this your booke swarmeth , as with sondry peculiar errours , which were euen a wearynes to report much more to confute : Yea we doubt not but that these which we haue named do appeare to all men which haue anie sparke of light in them , to be most grosse Idolatries & heinouse blasphemies , as wherby the honour which is due to God is gyuen to Creatures , God is worshipped after the deuices and fantasies of men , & not after his reuealed will in his worde , Gods name highly taken in vayne , the holy Scriptures prophaned , the Sacraments sacriligiouslie abused , yea euen the office of God taken from him and gyuen to an impiouse Priest . If you doubt of anie of these things let your Portuise this seruice booke be but brought & tryed by the worde of God ( wheras now it is sett vpp as the Idole of Indignation & Dagons stump aboue the worde of God ) and you shall finde these things to stand thus & worse then we report . And now you should not thinke it strange that it is termed a peice of swynes-flesh ; Let it be brought to the old vsuall mass-booke , and see if you finde it not a Collop of that fowle mezeled hogg howsoeuer it hath lighted into some conning Cooks handling that hath finely mingled & interlarded it to the pollecies of theis tymes that it might please both sorts , aswell the new forward protestants of theis dayes , as those that lyked the old relygion ( as they terme it ) best ; Innouation ( espeacially to Christs Testament ) was then ( as well as now by owr polletique Deuines ) held dangerous to the Common wealth . Well as we sayd you shall finde it a peyce , nay a pyg of that Swyne , now growen to a greater age , euen to th' encrease that you see ; And wee doubt not , if you bring it to that beast the parent , yt wil acknowledge as much , yea we haue crediblie hearde by some of no small accompt , that the Popes holynes himself hath offred to ratifie this Booke , ministrie &c. if so be we would receaue him as our Arch-B : And this you know that Swynes-flesh was forbidden by Gods lawe both to sacrifice & dyet , It was an abhominacion both to God & man as then , and surely if it were so in the Tipe , it is much more now in the substance .

Article 8. They say it is a greater synne to go to the Church to publique prayers , then for a man to lye with his Fathers wife .

THe first is grosse Idolatrie & high synne against the whole first Table ; The seconde is an horrible abhominacion against the Lawe of God & of Nature , not so much as to be spoken or thought of by anie chaste or Christian hearte , much lesse in this maner compared : But it is euen shame to heare or repeate those things you are not ashamed to publish , much more which manie of you commyt in secret .

Article 9. Those that will not refraine from our Churches , preaching , or seruice they gyue vnto the Deuyll and excommunicate .

AS we meddle not neither haue anie thing to do to iudge them that are a a 1. Cor. 5.12 . without , so receaue we none as b b Act. 2.41 42. 2. Cor. 6.17 members of our Congregation , but such as hauing left all false assemblies where God is not rightly worshipped , ioyne themselues vnto vs to serue God togeather according to his worde , and to leade our lyues in his holy faith & feare : If anie of these fall into c c Rom. 16.17 . 1. Tim. 6.3.5 . Titus . 3.5 . 2. Tim. 3.5 . 2. Thes. 3.14 errour , apostacy , Idolatry or anie other knowen synne , and will not be reduced by Christian admonitions exhortations &c. therunto belonging , such obstinat offendors then , we togeather ( according as we are Commaunded of God ) by the power of our Lord Iesus Christe ( which he hath d d Mat. 18.17 , 2 Cor. 2.7.10 . left vnto his Church ) e e 1 Cor. 5.4 delyuer vnto Sathan in the name of our Lord Iesus Christe , for the humbling of the flesh , that their soules might be saued in the day of our Lord Iesus ; this beinge the last remedy God hath appointed , the last duetie we can performe to them for their saluation : The neglecting wherof as it should be to their hurt , so should it be to the chardge of the f f Iosu. 7.12 . & 22.16.17.18 . 1 Cor. 5.6 . Heb. 12.29 . 2 Pet. 2.4.5 . whole Church before the Lord , who is a ielouse God , euen a consuming fyre .

Article 10. They hold it not lawsull to baptise Children among vs : They neuer haue anie Sacraments among them .

WE neither condemne nor neglect the Sacraments , being ministred by a lawfull Minister to the faithfull & their seede according to Christs institution : In that we refuse your Sacraments it is for your wilfull prophaning & prostetuting them to all commers , for the defaults of your assemblies , worship ministrie , and the heinouse breach of Christs Institucion &c. In that we haue no Sacraments amongst vs it is not by our default ( whose soules gaspe & bray after them ) so much as by your barbarous crueltie & Tyrannicall dealing with vs , who will not suffer vs to assemble not so much as to see one annothers faces by your goodwills , hunting , pursuing them abroade , persecuting , confiscating , shutting vpp close prisoners them you get into your hands : Wherfore we with the Prophet Dauid , euen crye out vnto our God against such wylde Boares as thus destroy the tender vines , against such cruell tyrants as persecute vs into the wildernes , and keepe vs from the comfort of the worde & Sacraments in th' assemblie of the Saints by their open force & pryuie sclaunders .

Article 11. They refuse to take an oth to be examined .

WE refuse not reuerently to sweare by the holye a a Deu. 6.15 Ier. 4.2 . Heb. 6.16 . name of God before a lawfull Magestrat vppon iust occasion according to the worde of God : But we haue iust cause to refuse that vngodly rash and vnlawfull oth , b b Amos. 5.14 . Zeph. 1.5 . Matt. 5.34.35.36.37 . Mat. 23.16 &c. by or with their booke &c. offred & enforced by theis BBs. at their pleasure vppon euery occasion to euery one that commeth before them after the manner of the Spanish Inquisition , expreslye contrarie to the word of God , the Lawes of this land , & derrogatorie to her Mats. prerogatiue royall , her Crowne & dignitie .

Article 12. They will not marrie amongst vs in our Churches , but resort to the Fleet & to other places to be married by one Greenwood & Barrow .

WE finde not in the scriptures the gyuing & ioyning in matrimonie to be an action of the Church , neither to be restrayned or to belong to the ministers or Pastors office : Wherfore seing the action is meerely Ciuile wee see not whie we may not after the a a Ruth . 4.9.10.11.12 . Iohn . 2.1.2 . examples of the godly in the scriptures marrye in all b b Heb. 13.4 1. Cor. 7.9 . 1. Tim. 4.3 . places , at all tymes in the Lord by the direction or consent of Parents , ( vnlesse it be by their owne manifest defaults ) before faithfull witnesses &c. Neither haue the men ( whome you here vntruly sclander ) taken vppon them to marry anie , or executed that office otherwise then togeather with other faithfull to wytnesse the same and to praise God for yt .

3 Thou dost loue Euill more then good , Lies more then to speake the truthe . Selah

4 Thou louest all wordes that may destroy , o deciptfull tongue

Psal. 52. 5 So shall God destroy thee foreuer , he shal ▪ take thee and pluck thee out cut of thie Tabernacle , and root thee out of the land of the liuing : Selah Let the lying lips be made dumbe which cruelly , pryuely , and spitefully speake against the Righteous . Psal. 31.18 .

YEt as greate paynes as these men haue taken by theyr close imprisoning , open rayling , and pryuie sclaundering to convince owr errors & instruct owr Consciences , they haue left out & not acquainted you all this while with the greatest heresie we hold , & that is , that her Maiestie hath as good right to the personages , gleabe lands , Bishopricks , Prebendaries , and all other cathedrall collegiat Church lyuings , as her Mats. Father of most famouse memorie king Henry the Eight had to the Abbies , and that it shal be as greatly to the glorie of God , the good of Christs Church , the benefit of her Maiestie & the whole land to dissolue theis now , as the dissolucon of the Abbies was in the tyme of her Maiesties Father . The Abbies & theis had both one originall , they sprang all from one fountayne ; Now the scripture a a Iam. 3.11.12 . Mat. 7.16 . saith one fountayne sendeth not out bitter & sweete water , men gather not grapes of thistles ; As for b b Nom. 8.18.24 . Heb. 7.12 . Tythes they belonged to the Leuiticall priesthode , and to the seruice of that Temple , and therfore ought now to be abolished . Set stipends haue no stay to leane vppon in the scriptures except c c Iudg. 17. entier . Iudg. 18.19.20 . Iude. 11. MICHA his Priest help to prop them vpp . Owr sauioure Christ d d Mat. 10.8 9.10 . 1. Tim. 6.8 . & his Apostles perswaded to sufficiencie but appointe not neither will them to e e 2 Cor. 2.17 1. Thess. 2.5 condicyon for anie certentye : this is the matter that boyleth in thier stomacks , & will by no meanes be digested , this is hit that toucheth to the quicke , and maketh all the syluer saints in this land aswell tything priests as hyred lecturers thus to bestur them , least their portions should be reproued ; They would gladly haue their portions improued , the one sorte in seeking to haue personages impropriat restored , th' other sort in suing to haue the Bishoppricks reformed by conuerting their lyuings from them to their seruants the preachers ; Both labour in vayne , DAGON of the Philistims cannot stad before nor with the Arke of God , the head & the hands are cut of , the stump must follow after ; The stone that was cut without hands hath smytten & broken their Image , euen that stone which these euill buylders refused wherat they stumble and are offended , 1. Pet. 2.8 . zach. 4.7 . Mat. 21.16 . is appointed the cheife of the corner ; his poore saints whome they so despise & persecute shall bring yt forth with shouting & ioye , and crying GRACE GRACE vnto yt , maugre all their turning of Deuices ; yea euen the Children in the street shall welcome Christ into his Church saying HOSANNA to the Sonne of Dauid , Luk. 19.27 . when he shall take vengeance of his enemyes , & of all such as would not that he should reigne ouer them . That nation & kingdome which will not serue hym shal perish , Isay. 60.12 and those nations shal be vtterly destroyed , for all the kingdoms of the world are owr Lords & his CHRISTS & he shal raigne for euermore ; Reuel . 12.15 There is no connsell , nor strength , nor pollycy against the Lord .

Bewise therfore now ye kinges , be learned al ye Iudges of the earth . Serue the Lord in feare and reioyce in trembling . Kisse the Sonne least he be angry and ye perish in the way ▪ when his wrath shall sodenly burne blessed are all that trust in hym .

EXPECT theyr other Conferences with all possible speed :

FINIS .

Faults escaped in the printing . for thruth reade truth . & for wne reade owne . page 3. for aimisse reade amisse . pa. 4. for them reade then . pa. 11. for babtised reade baptised . pa. 12. for note reade noted . pa. 13.

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