A reflection of certaine authors that are pretended to disauow the churches infallibilitie in her generall decrees of faith. By F.E. Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640? This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A05217 of text S106826 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 15351). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 340 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 123 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A05217 STC 15351 ESTC S106826 99842535 99842535 7199 2240873523

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 Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 2, no. A05217) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 7199) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 769:02) A reflection of certaine authors that are pretended to disauow the churches infallibilitie in her generall decrees of faith. By F.E. Lechmere, Edmund, d. 1640? [38], 200 p. By the widdow of Mark Wyon at the golden Phœnix, At Doway : 1635. E.F. = Edmund Lechmere. Running title reads: Infallibilitie in decrees of councels œcumenicall. Page 85 misnumbered 49. Some print show-through; some leaves tightly bound. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng Catholic Church -- Infallibility -- Early works to 1800. eebo A reflection of certaine authors that are pretended to disauow the churches infallibilitie in her generall decrees of faith. By F.E. Lechmere, Edmund, 1635 246 55053 1452 0 0 0 0 0 263.75 F The rate of 263.75 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the F category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2009-09 Assigned for keying and markup 2009-10 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2011-08 Sampled and proofread 2011-08 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2012-05 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

A RELECTION OF CERTAINE AVTHORS That are pretended to disauow THE CHVRCHES INFALLIBILITIE IN HER GENERALL DECREES OF FAITH .

BY F. E.

Acts 15. It hath seemed good to the Holy Ghost and to vs .

AT DOWAY By the widdow of MARK WYON at the golden Phoenix . 1635.

TO THE RIGHT-WORSHIPFVLL MY WORTHIE FREIND M. S. N. MVCH HONOVRED SIR

WHEN I receaued from you the last rich token , I promised to returne a letter full of thanks . But being then vpon a iourney , found not meanes to send ; and so failed in my dutie . Whereby my obligation was doubled : to pay the debt , that first ; and then , to satisfie for the fault . In discharge of both which , if you please to accept of these few printed leaues , you shall oblige anewe

Your thankfull freind and seruant F. E.
To M. S. A. SIR

WHen a doubt is proposed out of a desire to knowe the truth , I must not ( being called vpon ) be wanting to professe what I haue learned and do beleeue : but if it comes out of a curious humor of contradicting , I can dispose of my time better then to spend it in disputes . What your mind is , you reserue as your secret ; yet not so secret neither but that I perceaue something of it . Your deliberation , might I be of your counsell , should quicklie be concluded .

He takes the safe way that followes the direction of the Church . That Church I meane , which all times could point at ; and which all Hereticks haue opposed . You know that neither a a Mar. vlt. Ioan. 3. Apoc. 21. Tim. 3. Galat. 5. vide S. Aug. li. 4. con . Donat Hereticks nor b b 1. Cor. 12 Col. 2. Gal. 5. Vide S. Aug. Ep. 152. & de vnit . Eccl. c. 4. Firmissimè tene & nullatenus dubites , non solum omnes Paganos , sed etiam omnes Iudaos , Haereticos , atque Schismaticos , qui extra Ecclesiam Catholicam praesentem finiunt vitam , in ignem aternum ituros , qui paratus est diabolo & angelis eius . S. Fulg. de Fide ad Pet. c. 38. inter Op. S. Aug. t. 3. Of the grieuousnes of the crime of Schisme see S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donatistas . Schismatiks ( one wanting charitie , the other faith too , ) be in state of saluation . These , and such like things , you can weigh , your self . And , where the minde is not ill disposed , the resolution is most easie . Prudence neuer sticks at such a matter .

If your hinderance be that onlie which is insinuated , I shall willinglie shew you how you may remoue it . Go the Catholike waie : that , is secure . Seeke no by-waies .

Suppose you might be made Arch-bishop of Canterburie , vpon condition that you would go to Lambeth on foote ; and that there were some danger , yet no great danger neither , of loosing your purse ( without further harme ) if you tooke the common way ouer the bridge . Would you stay , till winter , that you might go without that difficultie , in greater perill : and then , hearing Themse to be frozen , presentlie ( before they durst venture who told you so , ) take your iourney ouer the ice ? A wise man would not venture his life and all , in that manner ; to saue two or three , ten or twentie peices : being presentlie to receaue a thousand if he came to Lambeth safe , and euer after to liue in great aboundance . Yet your case is more desperate . You know that in heauen you shall receaue at your entrance the possession of an eternall kingdome , with a crowne of glorie amongst Angels in immortalitie . The common way thither is the Catholike , which way if you take , you conceaue the danger of being a little taxed in your purse ; and you think you heare some tell you , there is an other waie , but nice and ticklish : wherein those who speak , themselues durst not venture ; because if it miscarrie , soule and bodie and Heauen and all , is lost , by a fault of c c Quisquis ab hac Catholica Ecclesia fuerit separatus , quantumlibet laudabiliter se viuere existimet , hoc solo scelere quod à Christi vnitate disiunctus est , non habebit vitam ; sed ira Dei maret super eum . S. August . Epist. ●52 . Schisme , which opens into a downefall that ends not but ( where there is no end at all ) in Hell .

To venture your bodie ouer a deepe riuer vpon a bridge of thinne brittle glasse , and to venture your soule ouer Hell-mouth vpon a ticklish opinion , which is worse ? He that loueth danger ( the Scripture saith ) shall perish in it . Eccles. ● . What speake I of an opinion ? When your imagination doth cease from working , no bridge at all appeares : you are but in a dreame .

But , were there two or three , who did ( against the rest , and against the knowne practice of the Church , ) auouch what you pretend , would you venture your soule ( whilst worlds of learned men bid you take heed ) vpon their word ? Perpetuall torment among the damned spirits , is a matter of that horrour , that wisedome would seeke the safest waie to decline it : and he that could see heauen a far of , with those inexplicable ●oyes that are in it , would think on nothing els but the securest way thither ; and feare nothing more then to misse it .

Were you to purchase a temporall estate or inheritance for your child , you would not venture your mony vpon a title , which the practice of the kingdome doth dislike and which Lawiers commonlie say is naught ; though two or three should tell you that it were a good title : much lesse in securing to your owne soule an eternall inheritance , should you be contented to relie vpon the Authoritie of two or three ( were there such ) the rest , with the generall Spirit Gods people , contradicting and anathematizing such as proceede in that manner .

That Catholikes are against you , generallie , in this point● you know . They communicate not with those who d● openlie oppose themselues to the decrees of Councels oecumenicall . The Councels themselues excommunicate and anathematize them also . And , as manie graue Prelates and learned Deuines as euer esteemed their authoritie sufficient to determine a Controuersie and oblige men to conforme their iudgment therevnto , ( who be innumerable , ) so manie do counsell you not to trust vnto these fewe , ( suppose you found them ; ) telling you that if you do you forfaite heauen .

When a fewe , reputed Schollers , ( were they many , were it a whole Nation , ) hold a tenet that is against the Church , their Authoritie doth not make it Probabilia sunt quae videntur omnibus , aut plurimis aut sapientibus ; & his vel omnibus , velplurimis , vel maximè familiaribus & probatis . Arist. li. 1. Topic . c. 1. Nonomne quod videtur probabile , est probabile . Ibidem . probable . The truth of her assertions dependeth not vppon the approbation of euerie one that is in her Communion : Much lesse , of others . The Pastors are to teach ; and if some of them do chance to forgoe the truth and leaue it , there is power in the * * You remember the practice of the Church in her first Councells , against Arians , Nestorians , &c. rest to define the matter and condemne them . Docete . Matt. vlt. This Catholikes do know ; they be grounded ; they take the secure way .

The way which you take is temerarious : it is the same which Heresie doth vsuallie take to spred it self . And in making choise of it you shew in your self the disposition of a Sectarie . The Sectarie findes an opinion auouched by two or three , against the common , and against the Spirit of the Church generallie : yet , because it likes him , ( for that it is easier to be conceaued , or more agreeable to some phantasie that he hath , or better suting to the libertie which he could wish , ) he is content to ●hink the authoritie of those ●●o or three ( though the ●●st contradict ) sufficient to ●ake is probable : and then , iud●ng of the reasons and moti●es which they bring , as his ●●fections incline him , he thinks 〈◊〉 at last , certaine . So did the ●rians ; depending vpon the ●uthoritie , first of their lea●ers ; and then deeming their ●otiue ( as that , pater maior me 〈◊〉 ) to be manifestlie against the Church , and for them . Neither be the Leaders themselues ( Arch-heretickes ) wi●●out pretence of authoritie ; they cite the d d Fortasse aliquisinterroget , An & Haeretici , diuinae Scripturae testimonijs vtantur ? Vtuntur planè , & vehementer quidem ; nam videas eos volate per singulaquae que sanctae legis volumina : per Moysi , per Regum volumina , per Psalmos , per Apostolos , per Euangelia , per Prophetas . Siue enim apud suos , siue alienos ; siue priuatim , siue publice ; siue in sermonibus , siue in libris ; siue in conuiuijs , siue in plateis : nihil vnquam paenè de suo proferunt , quod non etiam Scripturae verb●s adumbrare conentur . Vinc. lirin . c. 35. Si quis interroget quempiam Haere●●corum sibi talia persuadentem , vnde probas , vnde doces , quod Ecclesiae Catholicae Vniuersalem & antiquam fidem dimittere debeam ? Statim ille mille testimonia , mille exempla , mille authoritates parat , de lege , de psalmis , de apostolis , de prophetis ; quibus nouo & malo more interpretatis , ex arce Catholica in Haereseôs barathrum infoelix anima praecipitetur . Idem c. 37. vbi ostendit eos à diabolo modum istum didicisse ; Scriptum est enim . Scriptures , ●●d gleane obscure speaches ●t of auncient , good writers , which in shewe do make for them .

When a man once takes this ●ay , he squares out his Religion to himself ; or rather he runnes out of all : from one thing to another , from more to fewer points or articles from that he calls probable to lesse and yet lesse and lesse probable ; till at last is he findes himself , most certainlie , in Hell . Faith is a firme assent but his , ( if well examined ) is not so . It is not diuine faith ; he doth but flatter himself and deceaue others , with a shadow If two or three tell him that● Councell may mistake ( though the rest auouch the contrarie , he is content to think it may and heereupon , presentlie doubts of all , that is so defined Then further , proceeding i● the same ( sillie ) motiue ; if th● whole Church auouch a thing yet so , as some two or three at some time or other , held th● contrarie ; he will not belee●● the Church neither , No , nor the Apostles , if any tell him they might erre . A Rainolds , a Whittakers authoritie , makes the contrarie to him probable ; and by that time he hath read their bookes , he thinkes himself certaine of it . But in the meane while , where is the faith of such a man ? wherevnto doth he giue a firme assent ? To the Scriptures ? No : their authoritie who denied them , makes him doubt . To the Creed ? nor so ; the authoritie of two or three serues his turne , and there is nothing in the Creede that more then two or three haue not refused . Arianisme , Nestorianisme , Sabellianisme , Eutichianisme , Pelagianisme , Lutheranisme , Swinglianisme , all great Heresies haue had multitudes of abbet●ors ; whereas two or three , serue his turne . Where then is his religion ? in his mouth peraduenture : but in his heart , well examined , there is none .

Others there be , not so readie to relie indifferentlie vpon the Authoritie of any whatsoeuer esteemed learned ; but determined extreamelie vnto one . The Puritan for example , to Iohn Caluin ; whom he prefers before the rest all together . Wherein he shewes himself as extrauagantlie peccant against the light of nature as the former . Amongst the many principes or Axiomes which reason dictates to the Prudent , this is one , that , in matters of beleefe the greatest Authoritie must sway our vnderstanding . He will not denie that this is true , he might as well denie the sunne shines at middaie ; but his manner of proceeding doth inuolue a deniall of it . The authoritie of a Councell entirelie oecumenicall , is greater then the Authoritie of one single man . The greatest ●chollers haue euer stooped to 〈◊〉 : yet the Puritan rather beleeues Caluin , then such a Councell . Yea rather , then all the knowne Churches in the world , though e e Though some now dissent , as you for example , yet these points haue had the consent of all Christian Churches as many as beleeued that our B. Sauiour had true flesh and blood . consenting . As , in the matter of the Masse , vnbloodie Sacrifice , reall Presence . And what way is there , think you , to deale with such a man ? or to what end is it to dispute with him ? If you cite Scripture , he will rather take the comment of his Master Iohn , then the definition and tradition howeuer auncient , of the whole Church , deliuering the sence of it . It is so in the point of the Reall presence . And , in admitting the Bookes of Scripture too , he will be his owne chooser ; and will iudge , himself , which is good and sound and which ought to be discarded .

Vide disput. de Eccles pag. 304. But who shall decide the controuersie betwixt the Church and him , touching the meaning of that Scripture which he pleaseth to let passe for currant ? The Spirit , no doubt . But , in whom ? in the Church or the vniuersitie of beleeuers before his time ? Not so . They might erre he thinkes ; and so might all the Councells of Bishops that euer were ; and all the Pastors of the world , though consenting ; they might all , he thinks , be deceaued . Where then speakes the Iudge he meanes to stand to , when the Controuersie is about the sence of Scripture , or about the sinceritie of the letter ? in whom speakes the Spirit which he will permit to be his Master ? In Master Iohn . So he beleeues ; rather than he will beleeue that he speaketh in the Church .

Now tell me , is not this a strange manner of proceeding in matters appertaining to our eternall estate ? to challeng to ones self , or his Master Iohn , authoritie to teach and interprete Scripture , and to denie it to the whole Senate of Catholike Bishops and Pastors , whom God hath giuen to teach diuine doctrine , and to keepe the Church from wauering in such matters ? and not onlie to them , Ephes. 4 in what age soeuer , but absolutelie to the Church , without exempting the first Disciples , and Apostles ? These for sooth , be the men that in the pulpits crie so lowde , who disesteeming the whole world besides , obtrude themselues as masters of mankind , each an Oracle .

I know you wash your hands ; your words condemne their insolencie : you will not seeme to participate of their fault . But what is in your heart ? Are not you too , one of those that abbet a priuate judgment against a publike ?

You plead against the power of the Church to determine matter of faith in her generall assemblies ; that I see . And I know too , that you punish men for not conforming themselues to the determinations of one not generall . Reconcile these if you can . And tell me , if I be not bound to conforme my judgment to the judgment of a Councell when it is perfectlie oecumenicall , what shall binde me to conforme it vnto one that is onelie Nationall ? if the Decrees of the whole Church may be lawfullie refused , what obligeth me in conscience and before God to receaue the Decrees of your Conuocation ? Is euerie subiect bound to be of his Princes Religion ? or is it lawfull for him to subscribe against that he knowes to be the truth ? Is England , since you began to teach , growne bigger then all the world ? is a part ( is was not of old so , ) bigger then the whole ?

In way of excuse for your not subscribing to decrees oecumenicall , you plead the Authoritie of some fewe men ; ( how vniustlie , heareafter it will appeare ; ) and shall not the Authoritie of farre more , and those great Schollers , excuse vs in conscience for not subscribing to your priuate Articles wherein be many things generallie condemned in former ages ? To giue instance in one point , that containes many . In your 23. article you determine thus , The Sacrifices of Masses in the which , was commonlie said that the Priests did offer Christ for the quick and the dead , to haue remission of paine or guilt , were blasphemous fables and dangerous deceits . So you . Yet was this Sacrifice , frequented f f Missa abominatio in calice aureo propinata , omnes reges terra & populos à summo vsque ad nouissimum sic inebriauit , vt proram & puppim suae salutis in hac vna voragine statuerint . Caluin . Instit. li. 4. c. 18. See the Protest . Apol. tract . 3. Sect. 1. and in the Conclusion ; to the Iudges ; Sect. 6. & 10. generallie , when Luther began to make your Schisme . It was auowed in the g g S. Iren. li. 4. c. 32. Noui testamenti Nouam docuit oblationem , quam Ecclesia ab Apostolis accipiens in vniuerso mundo offert Deo . Concil. Nicenum 1. can 14. S. Cyrill . & cum eo Concil. Ephes. in Anathem . 11. S. Augu. Conc. 1. in Psalm . 33. Nondum erat sacrificium Corporis & Sanguinis Domini quod nunc diffusum est toto orbe terrarum . S. Ambros . de Sacram. li. 4. & 5 S. Cyrill . Catech. myst. 5 S. Chrysost. lib. 3. & 6. de Sacerdotio , & Hom. 17. in Epist. ad Hebraeos . His Liturgie is yet extant . And so is S. Basils too . S. Gregor. Nyssen . Hom. 1. de Resurr . Praeoccupat impetum violentum , ac sese in oblationem & victimam offert pro nobis Sacerdes simul & agnus Dei. Vide Disp. li. 5 c. 9 & Coccium in Thesanro , t 2. li. 6. a. 4. times primitiue . And our Sauiours h h This is my bodie which is broken for you . This is the blood of the new testament which is shed for you . words , registred in the i i 1. Cor. 11. Matt. 26. That it was offered for the quick and the dead , it is also testified abundantlie . S. Epiphan. Haeres. 75 where he saith also the Church receaued it by tradition . S. Cyrill . Cathec 5. Pro omnibus oramus qui ante nos vita functi sunt , maximum credentes animarum iuuamen pro quibus offertur obsecratio sancti illius & tremendi quod ante nos iacet Sacrificij . S. Chrysost. Homil. 3 in Epist. ad Phil. Non frustra hac ab Apostolis sunt legibus constituta vt in venerandis inquam atque horrisicis mysterijs memoria corum fiat qui decesserunt , nouerant hinc multum ad illos lucri accedere , multum vtilitatis . S. August . in Enchirid. ad Laurent . c. 110. lib. de cura pro mort . c. 1. &c. 4. Non sunt praetermittenda supplicationes pro Spiritibus mortuorum , vt quibus ad ista desunt parentes aut filij , ab vna is exhibeatur ●ia matre Ecclesia . Lib. 9. Confess . c. 13. Meminerint ad altare tuum Monica famulae tuae cum Patritio quondam eius coniuge , &c. S. Ioan. Damasc . Orat. quod defuncti Missis inuentur . Quod quidem citra vllam controuersiam Catholica & Apostolica Ecclesia sine vlla ambiguitate retinet &c. Vt consuetudinis testem ●llum cito . The like appeares by the Liturgies . Where obserue that I reflect preciselie , vpon the termes of your Article , which condemneth vnbloodie Sacrifice offered by the Priest for the Quick and the Dead to haue remission of paine or guilt . If this be a blasphemous fable , the whole world was in Errour . So commonlie was it said and esteemed lawfull ; and so vniuersallie frequented See further Gualterius his Chronographicall table , verit . decima . The Protestants Apol. tract . 1. Sect. 3. subd. 4. and Sect. 7. subd . 6. The Conference of Cath. and Prot. doct. li. 2. c. 24. angl . Bible , being vnderstood in their natiue , proper sence , do k k What necessitie there is to enquire into the true sence of these words ( This is my bodie ) will best appeare in the after-examination of the diuers consequences of your owne sence , to wit , your doctrine of transsubstantiation , corporall and materiall presence , propitiatorie sacrifice , and proper adoration : all which depend vpon your Romish exposition of the former words of Christ . The issue then w●ll be this , that if the words be certainelie true in a proper and litterall sence , then wee are to yeild to you the whole cause . Morton Instit. of Masse . li. 2. c. 1. I omit to note how Luther who did impugne the Sacrifice of Masse , had his instructions from the Deuil . as doth appeare still by his owne booke de Missa Priuata , p. 228 Ego coram vobis And p. 230 ● . ●n summa . Edit. Wittemb . anno . 1558. where he puts d●wne the Deuils arguments ; amongst which one is against vnbloodie Sacrifice ; Contra institutionem Christi , Missa vsus es pro Sacrificio , &c. §. quarto . confessedlie make for , and confirme it . Now , should wee subscribe to your Article , wee should contradict all this . Wee should contradict open Scripture , interpreted by the whole Christian world , and by the l l And this Spirit is the Holie Ghost , Ioh. 14. & 16. Spirit in it . And whilst you sollicite vs so to do , what do you but abbet a priuate Spirit ? and this too , importunelie , vnseasonablie ; then , when you denie to the whole Church power to define the veritie , euen of this cause ; or to declare the sence of Scripture touching it , in her Councels oecumenicall .

I am not disposed to beleeue that a part is greater than the whole . The Authoritie of m m England also before Caluin was borne , beleeued the Sacrifice of the masse ; and offered it for the quick and the deade . See the Prudentiall Ballance . all Nations Christian , moues me more then the Authoritie of one n n Other Protestants admit not your Confession . onlie , now deuided and apart . Neither can I be perswaded that corpus doth signifie a signe or figure onlie ; or that bread properlie , was crucified for my sinnes . I am not wiser then heeretofore men haue beene ; not wiser then the Church . I reuerence her decrees , and am readie to be directed by her . Whether those you pretend vnto , were so too , will appeare in the discussion of the Controuersie wee now deale ●n , which doth concerne the generall Councells wherein she declares herself .

Of such Councels , your fellowes haue questioned many things : as first , who hath power to call them ? secondlie , what persons are to be in them ? thirdlie , who is to preside ? Fourthlie , whether they be infallible in their decrees ? fiftlie which be such Councels ? The Controuersie wee are to speake of is none of these ; but onlie what learned men , Catholikes , haue deliuered & taught about the infallibitie of a Councell , supposing it be intirelie oecumenicall : which supposition being premised , The four first , your selues honour with the title of oecumenicall . [ and it is confessedlie a possible supposition , ] the Question is this , Whether any Deuines of the Catholike communion , haue openlie and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church , auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie ●ecumenicall , such as were generall ●nd approued , that in decrees of Faith , they might mistake and ●rre ? Wee dispute not , you and 〈◊〉 , now , whether this , or that , Councell , be such a Councell . That is another matter . Nor , whether such a Councell [ sup●ose it be , and define , ] be infal●ble . But ; what , men , Catho●ike Deuines , haue auerred ●ouching the priuiledge of a Councell generall , entire , and ●pproued .

The termes of the Question ●e remarkable . Councels ; not whatsoeuer ; but , generall and ●pproued , or entirelie oecume●icall . Deuines of the Catholike ●ommunion ; not Hereticks . Wee know that Hereticks re●use entire approued Councels . Matters of Faith ; not matters ●f Fact . Auouched openlie ; the knowledge of the cause goes before the sentence of the iudge .

Your pretence is that some Deuines haue auouched their fallibilitie in matter and manner aboue specified in the Quaere . Which if it were true , [ that I note this by the way , ] the tenet of their Infallibilitie would notwithstanding , continue firme . The Church doth not at all times punish what euer she doth abhorre : and negligence of discipline in a Superiour , is a distinct thing from the lawes or principles of a communitie Much lesse could it be ouerturned by their doubtfull speaches if any could be found : and least of all by obscure passages . Dark and hard speaches may be found in o o Vide S. Hieron . Apolog. adu . Ruf. li. 2. Fieri potest vt — vel certè antequam in Alexandria quasi daemonium meridianum Arius nasceretur , innocenter quaedam & minus cautè loqun●i sunt , & quae non possint peruersarum hominum calumniam declinare . vide S. Aug. de Praedest . Sanct. c. 14. Auncient Writers , that seeme to make agains● such tenets of Religion as you call fundamentall ; and some Fathers haue doubted of , some ●aue denied , p p Euseb. Hist. Eccles. li. 3. c. 19. Origenes apud eundem li. 6. c. 19. S. Hieron . de Script . Eccles. & in Ep. ad Dard. Bilson Suru . p. 664. See the Disp. pag. 431. bookes of Scri●ture , which all now beleeue ●o be Canonicall ; wherefore if 〈◊〉 this matter of Councels-au●●oritie the like should haue ●appened , the tenet of Assistan●e giuen to them in their de●rees of faith , being grounded 〈◊〉 Scripture , and hauing for it 〈◊〉 more euident perpetuall tradi●●on then you can shew for di●ers parts of Scripture which ●ou do beleeue to be diuine , ●ere still ( euen by you in like ●anner ] to be admitted and ●aintained : vnles you think it ●wfull to reiect those Books al●● , because once doubted of or ●enied ; and neuer to beleeue ●at , which might with a pre●nce of authoritie , be oppo●●d or contradicted .

Thus I could answer , and ●are the labour to talke further of the matter : Vide S. Aug. li. 2. contra Donat. c. 5. but becaus● you wrong some that be lea●ned worthie Authors , and some Fathers too ; least you fin● adherents that will beleeu● you [ to the preiudice of the●selues , and others ] vpon yo● bare word , when they s●● none contradict and confu● that you boast of , I will suru●● the citations .

Our dispute in this matte● is to be of Catholikes ; it is [ as b●fore was noted ] impertine●● to talke of others ; and of suc● as in plaine termes haue auouch● and maintained what you pr●tend they did . Wee know th● some haue beene mistaken 〈◊〉 great matters , and yet cont●nued in the Church , either b●cause the thing was not suff●cientlie brought to light , [ 〈◊〉 matters appertaining to diuin● faith be not at all times equa●lie proposed ) or because they were readie to submit themselues , As in the Questions of the Canon of Scripture , of Baptisme giuen by Hereticks , &c. and conforme their iudgment , as soone as the Church declared her self . Wee know ●oo , that diuers haue beene tempted in their faith ; and of these , some haue falne into Heresie or Atheisme , wherof we haue examples in Luthers preach ; and before , in all ages , ●uen the primitiue . Others ha●e discouered their tempta●ions , with all the motions of ●heir vnderstanding , to and ●ro : concealing onlie the finall ●esolution or euent . Of which ●nfirmitie , some , ( and not wi●hout scandall ) haue exhibited ●hemselues by their writings , ●ublicke spectacles to the ●orld . With those you and 〈◊〉 need not meddle ; being to ●peake of such onlie ( if any can ●e found , ) as haue openlie denied , the infallibilitie aboue specified , and yet enioyed the communion of the Church , notwithstanding such a knowne deniall .

She doth not thrust out of her communion , one , who doth onlie propose his doubtes , to be resolued ; nor yet , if by way of disputation , he venters to far , but without auouching , especiallie when this is donne with submission to her iudgment : or , if he so conceale his mind , or vtter himself so , that nothing can be directlie proued against him . Secret and concealed thoughts , she cannot look into . Euerie one is to be presumed good , vnles the contrarie may be proued . As many as haue exteriorlie communicated with the Church , are lawfullie presumed to haue receaued her tenets , vnles it be made appeare otherwise .

Though it be true that some who liue amongst vs o●herwhile , be not of vs . Some ●o beare themselues for Ca●holikes , who be in their hear●es Atheistes , or Heretikes . There be , no doubt , Ipse Satanas transfigurat se in Angelum lucis . Non est ergo magnum si ministri eius transfigurentur velut ministri iustitia . 2. Corint . 11. Nonne ego vos duodecim elegi : & ex vobis vnus diabolus est ? Ioan. 6. rauening wolues in sheeps-clothing some ; and the Pastors driue them ●ot away , because they know ●hem not . The Disciples knew ●ot that one in the companie was a Deuil . Wee are heere to ●reat of things manifest ; and to ●he Church ; and so farre , that ●hey might be legallie proued against the men when they we●e ●e liuing , and exteriorlie en●oyed the benefit of Commu●ion : or , are now to be seene 〈◊〉 their books , ( bookes not ●ensured , ) so cleerlie that it is ●nexcusablie vndeniable . Your ●elf , I suppose , would require no lesse euidence to condemne a man ( and in so great a matter , ) after death when he can speake no more for himself , then was necessarie to q q Reus non antè condemnandus est quam si idoneis testibus , vel apertissimis documentis , vel indicijs indubitatis & luce clarioribus conuict is fuerit ; aut propria confessione , &c. Vide legem fi C. de Probationibus . & l. Qui sententiam 16. C. de poe● . Neq●e manifestò constet incurrisse in sententiam excomun : quod nullo modo potest occultari , aut per aliquod re●● edium iur●s excusari : &c. Extra . Mart V. Adeu●anda . condemne him when he was aliue .

To vndertake this Question in the latitude that I do , is more then was necessarie for the defence of a generall tradition● more then can be showne for diuers partes of the New testamen● by you receaued : but the powe● of the veritie will appeare th● better when it is found to hau● bene so vniuersallie manifest and so commonlie receaued that none , by the Church esteemed Orthodoxe in their ●●mes , haue beene euer known● ( though there were still occasion to looke vpon the authoritie of such Councels ) openl● to contradict it and auouch th● contrarie . Neither could I well refuse ( it is a duetie in him that hath reaped benifit by their ●abours ) to come abroad , and defend the iust honour of Per●ons wrongd , who be not a●iue now to maintaine their owne credit .

APPROBATIO .

IN hoc libro , cui titulus A Relection &c. nihil est fidei Catholicae , aut bo●●s moribus contrarium , sed multa quae ●eritatem Catholicam confirmant . Qua●opter dignum censui , qui praelo com●ittatur . Actum Duaci 22. Maij 1635.

GEORGIVS COLVENERIVS S. Theol. Doctor , & eiusdem regius ordinariusque Professor , Collegiatae Ecclesiae S. Petri Praepositus , Vniuersitatis Duacensis Cancellarius , & librorum Censor .
Ex Disput. li. 4. c. 5. pag. 377.

OFfer not to cite any knowne Schismatike , whose opinion is generallie by all Deui●e● reiected ; cite no booke but what is at least tolerated in the Church : and haue a care you proue that the man whom you cite , doth , himsef , directlie and openlie , asseuere and affirme the thing in Question . Because it were but losse of time to speake of others : such as either had their writings censured when they came to be knowne ; or durst not openlie auouch what they would , to you , seeme to say . There are degrees in leauing the communion of the Church ; and the same partie , at one time may be in it ; and at other time , either out ; or in such an errour , as , if obstinacie were added to it , would take him out . Neither can the subtile dealing of any discontented person , if he chance to step ouer shoes , preiud●ce our cause , or be taken for the tenet of the Church , vnles the Church approue it : and error it neuer did or will approue . So there , by way 〈◊〉 preuention ; howbeit you were not pleased to take notice of it And in the end of the leafe are cited some 〈◊〉 Ockams words , Whose authoritie you scan first ; a● so will I , for a reason ( not yours ) Which Will quickl● show it self .

THE QVESTION . Whether any Deuines of the Catholike Communion , haue openly and to the knowledge of those to whom it appertained to looke vnto the Church , auouched and maintained of Councels entirelie oecumenicall , such as were generall and approued , that in Decrees of Faith , they might mistake and erre ?

YOV haue vndertaken the Affirmatiue and will be Plaintiff . Your instance is in Austen , Vincentius Lirinensis , Athanasius , amongst the Auncient : and in O●kam and Waldensis amongst the later . To the same purpose others do cite Cameracensis , Panormi●●● Stapleton , Cusanus , Clemangis , and Canus , and Baro who professedlie disputes the matter , ioynes Optatus and Antoninus .

Franciscus Picus is alleaged some where too by the said Minister , reciting the Opinions of some of these men . What Councels he speakes of , I do not intend to dispute : being to looke into the Authors them selues ; and out of their owne Writings ; not out of other mens , to learne their mind .

You will not be displeased if I put the places downe as Baro cites them : that such as haue hi● booke , which is publike , may compare , and iudge● as they see cause .

§. I.

1. Ockam ( in a booke of his that is prohibited ) saies that some Christians , comprehending Hereticks vnder the name , seeme to think generall Councels , some , might erre . 2. F● brings in behalf of those men , an argument● proue it : which argument is manifestlie de●cient . In like manner he brings arguments proue that which he confesseth to be false ; as thought this also to be . 3. He recites an op●nion whereof he saies he knew no abbettor , th● speakes doubtfullie of the manner of assistin● 〈◊〉 and himself auoucheth the Authoritie of sincere generall Councels . He toucheth obiter the question , who doth approue and how , and who declares them to be generall . 4. His proceedings in this worke discommended .

QVia omnes Christiani sentire videntur quod tota multitudo Christianorum haereticari non potest ; quidam autem secundò quod nec Concilium generale : aliqui verò tertiò quod nec Rom. Ecclesia : nonnulli autem quartò quod nec Collegium Cardinalium : aliqui verò quintò quod nec etiam Papa potest hatetica pollui prauitate . Ideo de istis quinque quid sentiant Christiani cupio vt mihi reueles . Baro. p. 359. ex Ockam , dial . li. 5. c. 1.

1. OCKAM . All Christians doe seeme to thinke that the whole multitude of Christians cannot become heretick : but some ( Christians do seeme to thinke ) that neither a generall Councell .

Here first is not determined what generall Councells those people meane ; whether approued , or not approued by the see Apostolike . Se●ondly it is not said absolutly that they doe thinke and maintaine that Councells oecumenicall may propo●●e and teach heresie ; but that some ●oe seeme to thinke that Generall Councels ( whether some , or all , is not here expressed ) may haereticari , or haeretica prauitate pollui ; haereticate , ( to keepe his termes ) or , be stained with hereticall prauitie . Thirdly it is not expressed who these Christians were ; whether Catholikes , or Schismatickes : And , in case an excommunicated person ( seeking how to maintaine Schismaticall proceedings ) in a book not tollerated , but a a Index lib. prohibit . Conc. Trid. expresly forbidden , should , not avouch , but seeme to think that Councels , though generall , might erre ; this could not make good what yo● professe to proue , vzt , that men 〈◊〉 our Communion , haue , in their curra● works , openly denied infallibilitie to the decrees of approued generall Councels . Much lesse can the passage alleaged serue your turne , if the word Christians be not heere taken so strictly as your inference doth suppose ; but so farre extended that heretickes come vnder the name too ; for then it may be true that some Christians doe seeme to thinke so , and ye● no Catholikes thinke so : there being other Christians in the world beside Catholikes , euen in his opinion that said , ( and was it not the same b b Quaeso vt mihi reueles , an aliqui sentiant quod tota multitudo Christianorum valeat haeretica prauitate foedari . Mag. Iudaei , Sarraceni , & etiam Pagani firmissimè tenent fidem Christianam esse erroneam . Disc. Non intendo quaerere de illis sed de Christianis ; sub Christianis etiam Haereticos comprehendendo . Mag. Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teueat . Ockam . dialog. par. 1. li. 5 c. 35. Ockam thinke you ) that vnder the name of Christians he did also comprehend heretikes : who desired also in this Dialogue to heare the contrarie Opinions , of whomsoeuer , Catholikes , or Heretikes ; yea and sometimes others , ●hat no c c Nolo vt quod tenes in mente , reueles : sed responsiones aliquas quae cogitari vel teneri potuerint à quocumque , non differas recitate &c. sententias contrarias quorumcumque Catholicorum & Haereticorum , & interdum alia quae à nullo Christiano tenentur , licet possint habere Catholicos & Haereticos defendentes , te desidero recitare : sic enim multiplicius & efficacius exercitabimus studiorum ingenia . Idem c. 34. Christians hold . This for your argument , of omnes and quidam Christiani , some Christians and all Christians .

VNa sola est Ecclesia militans quae contra fidem errare non potest , quia de sola vniuersali militante inuenitur in Scripturis authenticis quod errare non potest . Concilium autem generale licet sit pars Ecclesiae militantis vniuersalis tamen non est Ecclesia vniuersalis . Igitur temerarium est dicere quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest . Baro. p. 361. ex Ockam . dial .

2. THe next thing obiected is an argument of those some Christians , whereby they imagined that perhaps the thing which they did seeme to thinke might be proued ; The vniuersall diffused Church onlie i● vnerrable : but a generall Councell i● not the vniuersall diffused Church Ergo. In which argument the proposition or is Maior false , as our Deuines doe proue by playne testimonie● of scripture ; and our aduersaries 〈◊〉 necessitie must acknowledg a● much , vnles they will oppose them selues to the Apostles and Father and Pastors of the Church , all together . For , if onely the Symbolica● or vniuersall Church , diffuse through all Nations and times , hat● the priuiledge of not erring in matter of diuine Faith , it followes , tha● the Pastors and Fathers and Apostles , all consenting , are not to b● relied on , as a proponent infallible since these be not the whole ( 〈◊〉 they neuer so glorious a part of the Church vniuersall . Howbeit t● Question here is not of that argument or proposition ; but , whethe● Ockam doth denie the infallibilitie of approued generall Councells ; or , whether he doth name , or giue other sufficient notice of , any Catholike that denied it . He names here none ●t all ; neither doth he say that they were Catholikes who seemed to thinke &c. and least any should suspect him , he professeth in the person of the other Dialogist to be of the d d Quamui● firmissimè putem quod Concilium Generale haereticari non potest , tamen rationes pro assertione contraria libenti animo auscultabo . Mag. Quod Concilium generale possit errare contra fidem rationibus & exemplis videtur posse probari . Prima autem ratio talis est . Vna est sola vniuersalis Ecclesia &c. ( vt pag. 5. ) Ockam . li. 5. c. 25. argumenti verò solutionem apud ipsum innenies cap 9. & habetur inferius ad lit h. §. ad vndecimam . minde that a generall Councell cannot ●rre in faith .

The like proceeding you may obserue in him els-where ; as , in the last Chapter of this booke , where he bringes reasons ( and leaues them without answer too , ) to proue that the whole multitude of Christians hauing vse of reason ( pastors and people , men and women ) may erre against the faith ; and that it is teme●arious to say they will neuer doe so ; though he there confesse this which ●e goeth about to proue , to (e) (e) Nescio aliquem Christianum qui hoc teneat . Disc. Licet nescias Christianum aliquem hoc tenere , tamen pro hoc al quas rationes excogitare nitaris . Mag. Ad quaestionem falsam nulla ratio nisi sophistica potest adduci . Disc. Concedo quod pro assertione praedicta nulla valet ratio nisi sophistica allegari ; tamen saepè rationes apparentes & difficiles ad soluendum pro falsis inducuntur . Vnde qualescunque inuenire coneris . Mag. Quod tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium possit contra fidem errare , tali ratione probatur &c. Ockam li. 5. c 35. Ergo temerarium est asserere quod nunquam tota multitudo Christianorum vsum rationis habentium contra fidem errabit . Ibidem in fine . be ●●lse ( as it is indeed , and manifestly against the Scripture , Daniel 7. I say 49. Mat. 18. Io. 14. Ephes. 4. Apoc. 20. ) and that he knewe no Christian at all ( he liued before the Protestant Religion ) that held it .

ESt quaedam opinio quae viam eligens mediam praedictis omnibus in aliquo aduersatur : tenens quod Scripturae diuin● contentae in Biblia , & eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus , & Vniuersall Ecclesiae , atque Apostolis , absque vlla dubitatione in omnibus est credendum . Nullis verò alijs quantacunque doctrina vel sanctitate praepolleant , est in omnibus absque omni exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda . Ita quod nec in Concilio Cenerali si esset congregata vniuersalis Ecclesia , no● decretis aut decretalibus vel assertionibus summorum Pontificum , nec Doctorum dictis , ( siue fuerint ab Ecclesia approbati siue non fuerint approbati ) est necessariò credulitas in omni dicto & casu absque omni exceptione praestanda : Licet in multis negari non debeant , & quoad multa Christiani ipsis credere teneantur . Baro p. 361. ex Ockami dial. 3. par. tract. 1. li. 3. c. 4.

3. THe third thing obiected is , that he mentions an Opinion holding amongst many other things , that credit is not to be giuen to a generall Councell in euery thing it saies , and in euery case without exception . Were this his owne tenet , our cause were not hurt , for wee do not maintaine in Councells of the Church , approued , much lesse in all Councels that are stiled generall , such an vnlimited and vniuersall infallibilitie as these words import , in omni dicto & casu , absque omni exceptione , in all they say , and in all cases without exception , neither indeed doth Ockam there mention that * * cited pag. praeced . opinion assertiuè as holding ; but recitatiuè as relating it : and this too , not as the opinion of any Catholike Deuine ( for he saies there in the person of the other Dialogist , that he neuer before heard or f f Si est aliqua opinio quae omnibus obuiet supradictis , ipsam audire desidero , vt mihi detur occasio intelligendi profundiùs veritatem . Mag. Est quaedam opinio quae viam eligens median &c. ( vt pag. 8. ) Disc. Istam opinionem aliàs non audiui , nec legi . Ockam . 3. p lib. 3. cap. ● reade it , ) but as an opinion which a searcher of curious questions (g) (g) Vt mihi detur occasio intelligendi profundiùs vertatem . Ibidem vt suprà . Vt cognoscam quod aliquid apprentiae vel veritatis contineat , ipsam intendo aliqualit tecum discutere . Ibidem . Nolo vt quod tenes in me● reueles , sed responsiones aliquas quae cogitari vel tene potuerint à quocunque , non differas recitare . Mag. Hoc p●cto vt omnia quae narrabo non aliter accipiantur 〈◊〉 quod aliquis quaestionum difficilium indagator po● dicendo computare consona veritati , quomodo ad pr●dictas instantias respondere contingat , ostendam . Vo● enim quod dicenda Fratri Magistro ( Michaeli de C●na , Generali Minorum . vide prolog ) & eius sequacib ( Ockamo , caterisque ) nequaquam imponas . Sicut praecedentibus multas recitaui sententias quae assertio●bus Domini Ioannis & suorum sequacium obuiant ●●nifestè ; quas tamen Frater Magister & sui sequaces schismate contra Ioannem illi adhaerentes ) minimè opin●tur : imò nonnullas impugnare nituntur . Ita in parte● tura operis huius ( si tu volueris ) plura referam q● Frater Magister & sui sequaces satagunt improbare . D● Quod istum modum teneas à principio acceptaui . Q● sententias contrarias quorumcunque Catholicorum & 〈◊〉 reticorum &c. ( vt supra ad lit . c. ) Ockam p. 1. li. 5. c ● Personam recitantis assumas , nec tantùm vnam sed pl●res quando tibi videbitur , ad eandem interrogation● narra sententias . Sed quod tua sapientia sentit , mihi●lis nullatenus indicare . Idem in Prologo Dial. Affectas video ) quatenus ex serie dicendorum nemo possit coll● quam partem dissentientium circa fidem catholicam 〈◊〉 putem iustiorem , quod tuae satisfaciens voluntati● cum alijs quae vel efflagitas vel affectas , seruare cura● Ibidem . might inuent and bringe into discourse as an occasion to penetrate the deeper into the trueth , which is most diligently sought when it is most cunningly contradicted ; and appeares more cleerly in the vnderstanding when all errors are distinctly remou● from it .

In proposing the grounds of that ●pinion ( whose arguments himselfe ●ppon another occasion and in a li●●e matter , had before (h) (h) 1. p. li. 5 c. 9. Nec ex sanctitate nec ex fidei firmitate Cardinalium ( Episcoporum ) maiori quam habuerunt Apostoli , est quod Collegium Cardinalium ( Concilium Episcoporum ) errare non potest , sed ex promissione Christi . Ibidem . Dignitas ecclesiastica nec sanctificat nec inobliquabilem in fide instituit aliquam personam , tamen Christus praeseruat ab errore contra fidem aliquod collegium habens aliquam specialem dignitatem ; quem ad modum regio Christiana nec sanctificat nec inobliquabilem red●● aliquam personam , Christus tamen praeseruat collegium suscipientium religionem Christianam ne erret contra fidem . Ibidem . Ad decimam dicitur dupliciter , vn● modo quod Collegium Archiepiscoporum & Episcoporum non potest contra fidem errare , & isti conced●● quod praeter congregationem fidelium sunt plura colleg● particularia , quae contra fidem errare non possunt , scilice Collegium Cardinalium & Collegium Episcoporum . Aliter dicitur quod Collegium Cardinalium quantum 〈◊〉 aliqua est eminentiùs Collegio Episcoporum licet qua●●um ad aliqua sit inferius ipso ; & ideo licet Cardinal● valeant eligi ad Episcopatus , poterit tamen Collegiu● Episcoporum vel ipsorum Cardinalium esse confirmatum in fide . Ad vndecimam dicitur quod de sola Eccless● militante in generali asseritur quod non potest con●● fidem errare , cum hoc tamen stat quod sit aliqua Eccles●● particularis quae non potest errare contra fidem ; Sicut conceditur quod congregatio fidelium errare non potest , 〈◊〉 tamen simul cum hoc conceditur : quod Concilium generale contra fidem errare non potest . Ibidem answered ) ●e discouers it to apprehend that ●●e infallibilitie , ( such as it doth im●●gne ) depends vpon some newe (i) (i) Eugen● ab Ammedera dixit , & hoc ego idem censeo haeretic● baptizandos esse . ( Augustinus ) huic respondetur ; Sed no● hoc censet Ecclesia , cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concili veuelauit . Quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis , se● quia in vobis charitas salua erat in vnitate permanebat● S. Aug. li. 6. de bapt. contra Donatist c 39. ●●uelation ; and then brings argu●ents against this way ; whereas ●ckam knew and had himself noted ●●at Catholikes defend infallibilitie ●therwise . And that same Opinion , for of it I must speake and not of him , since he doth not owne it , that same Opinion I say , maintayning as it doth , the vniuersall Church present to be infallible , and the decrees approued by it to be of authoritie vncontrouleable , so farre that none may (k) (k) Est quaeda● opinio tene●s quod Scripturae diuinae contentae in Biblia & eiusdem sacrae Scripturae scriptoribus , & vniuersali Ecclesia , atque Apostolis , absque vlla dubitatione in omnib● est credendum . Nullis verò alijs quantacumque doctrin● vel sanctitate praepolleant est in omnibus absque om● exceptione fides necessariò adhibenda . Ita quod nec i● Concilio &c. ( vt supra pag. 8. ) Ockam . dial. p 3. li 3. c. 4. doubt of them , must acknowledge another way ; for neither can this infallibilitie in matter of faith ●e attributed to humane industrie ; ●or will it ( the opinion I meane ) ad●itte a continuall dependance vpon ●●uelations , to be made alwaies to his purpose .

True it is that it seekes an answe● to the argument of Gods prouidence and protection , grounded in ou● Sauiours promise ; euer labouring to ●●de newe wayes ; but the issue is ●●ch as makes any wise man afraid to ●●bscribe . So little faith it hath in Iesus Christ , and his promises , that it ●eth ( and by the mouth of Ockam ) ●●at the whole (l) (l) Multitudo Christianorum ( dum tamen alij vel saltem vnus fidelis remaneat ) potest inuoluenti periculo haeresis & erroris ( alijs exigentibus peccatis ipsorum ) exponi . Quibus in haereticam prauitatem labentibus valet ille qui de lapidibus potest suscitare filios Abrahae , vel de aliquibus ipsorum aut de alijs quando voluerit numerum Christianorum augere . Idem 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Est quoddam periculum tantummodo imminens seu circumstans ; & est periculum inuoluens seu prosternens . Ibidem . §. Cum autem . multitude of Chri●ans , so one man remaine sound ( himselfe perchance ) may be exposed not 〈◊〉 circumstant and imminent only , ●●t to inuoluing and vanquishing or ●●erthrowing danger of Heresie and errour . In which case ( quibus in Haere●●am prauitatem labentibus ) it will haue God , who of stones can raise Abraham sonnes , of these or others to make vp his Church anewe .

You may further obserue if you read Ockam , how the blinde Opinion knowes not where to take footing , or which way to proceed whilst it ●es stumbling on : Wee must not bel●●ue a Councell (m) (m) suprà pag. 8. in all things ; so it ●gins : then , especially (n) (n) c. 7. if they be f●●e in it , as there haue bene some ty● ten or twelue : then , it is not necessar● (o) (o) c. 8. of euery Councell ; then , it is not ne●essarie to beleeue that a question of ●h is (p) (p) Ibidem alwayes ended by reuelations ; then ; neither (q) (q) c. 9. perchance 〈◊〉 there be alwaies a reuelation made 〈◊〉 oft as a generall Councell will be he● &c. with so many limitations a● cautions , fortè , and semper , and q●ties . And againe ; it cannot be pro● by this ( an argument there brough● that it is (r) (r) c. 11. necessarie to beleeue th● the determinations of generall Counc● touching the doubtfull meaning of h● Scripture haue the origen of their true that way by which they were inspi● to the writers of holy Scripture , wi● much more of like nature . And t● enforced answers which Ockam fein● for it , to the grounds of the comm● tenet brought in there in part agai● that new-conceaued blinde error ( whereof I haue related (s) (s) p. 13. one , ) 〈◊〉 so vnworthie of a learned Christi● that you may see looking on the● well , how , pretending to nouris● he ( on better aduise ) leaues it an●●bortiue ; and makes against it th● confession : First (t) (t) Concilium generale non debet regulariter occul●è seu secretè paucis scientibus celebrari : sed vulgandum est per vniuersalem Ecclesiam , hoc est per omnes regiones in prouincia in qua seu in quibus Catholici commorantur , generale Concilium conuocari debere , quatenus omnes Catholici tacitè vel expressé consentiant , & quasi authoritatem tribuant vt ad concilium profecturi , eorum nomine circa ordinanda & definienda in Generali Concilio canonicè & catholicè atque ritè procedant ; vt meritò quicquid catholicè & licitè statuerint vel definierint , vniuersali statuatur & definiatur assensu . p. 3. l. 3. c. 13 : quando igitur Concilium Generale ritè conuocatur , & in omnibus catholicè procedit , quicquid fecerit , ab vniuersali Ecclesia fieri est putandum . Ibidem . when a gene● Councell is rightly called and proce● in all things Catholikely and holily ( n●ther am I defending others ) quicq● fecerit what soeuer it shall doe is t● ●eemed done by the vniuersall Church . ●he Catholike Church then , it see●es in his iudgment , or in the iud●ment of the Opinion , for so wee must speake of it since it wants an author ; ●engaged in the Councells decrees ; ●nd consequently it much concernes him who hath the care of her , ( doce●t vos ) to take order , the Councell mistake not ; and so much ' that the ●edit of her ( cui in omnibus (u) (u) suprà pag. 8. abs●e vlla dubitatione credendum est , if ●●e opinion take place which you tell vs Ockam held ) is ruined with the same lapse , if in estimation both are one .

In the same place he sayth that (x) (x) Postquam acta Generalis Concilij per vniuersos Catholicos populos fuerunt promulgata , si nullus contradicens aut impugnans apparet , sunt putanda ab vniuersali Ecclesia approbata . p. 3. li. 3. c. 13. autem acta Generalis Concilij non fuerunt apud om● populos Catholicos diligenter exposita , non est dice● dum quòd tale Concilium Generale sit explicitè ab Ecclesia approbatum , licet si sanctè & catholicè fuerit celebr●tum , possit dici implicitè ab vniuersali Ecclesia approbat●● Ibidem . Quod statuitur vel definitur in Concilio Genera● non ligat vniuersalem Ecclesiam , nisi per vniuersale● Ecclesiam fuerit legitimè diuulgatum : & ideò non est co●● sendum explicitè approbatum ab vniuersali Ecclesia , a● tequam taliter publicetur . Non oportet autem taliter definitum singulorum auribus inculcare , sed sufficit ●ali● publicare quod nullus se possit , si in contrarium vene●● per ignorantiam excusare Ibid. after the acts of a generall Councell haue been promulgated amongst all Catholike people , ( to promulgate them amongst Heretiks he did not esteeme it necessarie ) if then no man ap●●ares ( he speakes still of Catho●●kes ) contradicting or impugning , they 〈◊〉 to be esteemed approued of the vni●●rsall Church . Secondly , (y) (y) Iuxta Sanctorum Pat●● sententiam , Concilia Generalia , quae ritè , iustè , sanctè 〈◊〉 canonicè celebrata fuerunt , sunt ab omnibus Catholicis 〈◊〉 notissimè suscipienda , amplectenda & veneranda . Ock●● 3. p. li 3. c. 9. those Councells which haue been celebrated , ●●derlie , rightlie , holilie , and canoni●llie , are according to the iudgment of the holie Fathers ( marke those Authors ) most deuoutlie te be receaue● embraced , and reuerenced by all Catholikes . Thirdlie ; if (z) (z) Aut Concilium generale catholicè def●● aliquid esse credendum , aut erroneè . Si catholicè , nulli li● publicè negare , vel etiam publicè dubitare taliter defi●●tum . Nulli etiam licet pertinaciter occultè vel etiam motaliter de tali definito dubitate . Ibidem . a generall Cou●cell doe Catholikelie ( that is in his e●plication ritè , iustè , sanctè , canoni● define something to be beleeued , it 〈◊〉 lawfull for none to denie publikelie , 〈◊〉 publikelie to doubt of the thing so de●ned . Neither is it lawefull for any m● stubbornelie , occultè , vel etiam men● ●●ter , secretlie , or as much as mentallie 〈◊〉 doubt of the thing so defined . He is ●onne farther now by much then you ●n suffer ; neither will you finde ●herein these words differ from our ●●net ; for wee maintaine not the in●●llibilitie of such Councells as pro●●ed against that order which is es●ntiallie required in a Councell .

By the way ; you must heere di●●inguish Councels ; ( if you will not ●ake this Opinion to contradict it ●●lf : ) those which be sincere and ap●●oued be certaine in their decrees ; those that are not , may mistake . And if there be doubt of any , to which sort they appertaine , it will ●●t haue them obaid . It doth also di●●nguish about the decrees of the for●●er sort , as others do towards Scri●ure ; an explicite , and an implicite ●th . There is none in your parish ●eeues the Scripture all in euerie ●t and euerie literall sence distin●●e , explicitè : no not your self ma●● Parson . And finallie it distingui●eth a double approbation of de●●es , one is authenticall , donne by 〈◊〉 Pope : another priuate , by any that is a Scholler : Consentiens subscrips● but I should not anticipate .

SI quaeratur quis habet iudicare an concilia fuerint catholicè celebrata ? Respondetur , quod quia non definirent aliqu● nisi quod potest elici ex Scriptu is diuinis , ideo periti in Scr●pturis , & habentes aliarum sufficientem intelligentiam script●rarum , habent iudicare per modum firmae assertionis , quod 〈◊〉 finita abijs sunt catholicè definita Ba●o . ex Ockami dial .

4. LAstlie you take occasion o● of his words , to question wh● shall iudge whether the Counc● haue defined canonicallie or no ; 〈◊〉 which case wee are not so ignora● as to runne out of the Church to H●retickes to learne of them . Neith● doe wee esteeme William Ockam great an oracle , that , were his doct●ne heerein singular , neglecting bo● the aa) aa) Quamuis omnes Episcopi orbis terrae praesentes fuissent 3 p. li 3. c. 9. per congregationem quae à multitudine fidelium Generale Concilium aestimatur . Ibidem . Councell , and the Chur● (bb) (bb) Et si quaeratur quis habet iudica●e an fuerint catholicè celebrata ? Respondetur , quod quia non definierunt aliquid nisi quod potest elici ex Scripturis diuinis , ideo periti in Scripturis & habentes aliarum sufficientem intelligentiam scripturarum , babent iudicare per modum firmae assertionis ( fortè , assentionis ) quod definita ab eis sunt catholicè definita . Summi autem Pontifices si non fuerint praesentes , sed tantum modo authoritate eorum praesentibus legatis ipsorum celebrata fuerunt authenticè , iudicare habent quod catholicè extiterint celebrata . Si autem Summus Pontisex praesens fueri● , sufficit quod authenticet ipsa . Ibidem . adherent to it , wee should g● learne of him what conditions 〈◊〉 necessarie to the subsistence o● Councell , and whether all were 〈◊〉 or no. Yet this is not the Questio● It is one thing to dispute whethe● Priest can consecrate ; and another dispute whether you be a Priest . O● thing to dispute whether a gene● Councell can define infalliblie , ano●her to dispute which is a generall Councell . The controuersie wee spe●ke of is about the former , wherein ●atholikes maintaine the affirma●ue , and you shall neuer proue that ●kam held the contrarie by his Dia●gues whilst his Dialogues are extant . 〈◊〉 fine if it be obiected that he hath ●t expreslie and professedlie answe●d diuers arguments which he bringes ●ainst Councells , this will not con●de that he held against such as ●ere lawfull and approued , and consequentlie that he did herein contradict himselfe : for l. 5. c. vlt. he beings arguments to proue that the ●hole multitude of beleeuers , as ●any as haue vse of reason , may er● concluding (cc) (cc) suprà ad lit. d vide etiam quae habentur , l●t●h it is temerarious to ●rme that it will neuer be : and ●se arguments as I told you once ●ore he leaues vnanswered ; not ●hstanding that in the beginning 〈◊〉 did acknowledge none but So●ticall could be brought : and ●t the thing was false , and that he ●ewe no Christian at all , Catholike or ●etike that held it . If you thinke that in his minde he was of that opinion , you cannot approue the Spirit , opposing all Christians and his owne conscience too : If you do not think he was , then let not his seeming want of answer , or indiscreet and scandalous proposing of doubts , moue you to iudge , ( neglecting the caueat he gaue in the (dd) (dd) suprà ad lit . f. beginning ) that in them he deliuered his owne minde . Much less● should you adore this vnhappie worke as a piece heauenlie-inspired for the worlds learning , considering how in it , like a serpent , h● rowles himselfe into windings striuing still to hide his head ; and tha● hauing turbulentlie snatcht pen i● hand to maintaine a Schisme , he beginnes the worke with the commendation of his owne great (ee) (ee) Quod tua Sapientia sentit . Ibidem . wisdome . For my part I should no● wonder to finde in such a work● fouler errours then wee speake 〈◊〉 hetherto . (ff) (ff) S. Hier. in Tit. c. 3. There is no scisme whic● feignes not vnto it self some Heresie ( S● Ierome saies , ) that it may seeme iust● to haue departed from the Church .

§. II.

1. Petrus Cameracensis reciteth diuers opinions , out of Ockam : whereof one is that of Councels , allreadie handled . 2. He said , in his yonger age , disputatiuè not assertiuè , that the infallibilitie of other Church besides the vniuersall could not be conuinced out of Scriptu●re . What , he thought of the point it self , he declared afterwards . 3. He did not hold that the whole multitude of Christians , Clerks and ( 4. ) Laicks , might fall from the true faith .

OMnes fideles in eo communiter consentire videntur , quod tota Ecclesia siue multitudo omnium Christianorum , hae●eticari non potest , siue contra fidem errare . Baro. p. 363. ex ●lliacens● . Octaua assertio est , quod etiam Concilium generale ●otest contra fidem errare , quia ipso sic errante adhuc staret ●●liquos extra concilium non errare , & per consequens fidem Ecclesia non deficere . Ibidem ex eodem .

1. PETRVS CAMERACENSIS . This man ( if the v●speriae and the Resumption of it , be his ) is brought , first , to beare witnes that in his time there were contrarie opinions about the authoritie of Councells . The reason why they call vpon him is , because amongst assertions which he relates in his Vesperiall Quaestion , one is , that a generall Councell may erre against faith . Wherevnto I answer , first that wee maintaine not the infallibilitie of all that beare the name . Secondlie he doth (a) (a) Recitandae sunt quaedam assertiones circa istam materiam plurimum differentes . Prima est in qua communiter omnes fideles videntur con●enire quod tota Ecclesia siue multitudo omnium Christianorum haereticari non potest , siue contra fidem errare . Secunda quod nec etiam Concilium Generale . Tertia quod nec Romana Ecclesia Quarta quod nec Collegium Cardinalium . Quinta quod nec Papa canonicè intrans . Aliae autem sunt quinque assertiones praedictis valdè repugnantes . Vna est quod Papa intrans canonicé , haereticari potest &c. Octaua quod etiam Concilium Generale &c. Nona est , quod tota multitudo non solum Cardinalium , sed generaliter omnium virorum potest sic errare , & fides Ecclesi●e in solis mulieribus conseruari Decima est , quod tota multitudo Christianorum no● solum virorum , sed etiam mulierum vsum rationis habentium potest errare contra fidem ; quia hoc stante adhuc in paruulis baptizatis possunt saluari omnes promissione● Christi de fide Ecclesiae vsque ad consummationem saeculi . Petrus Cameracensis Quaest. Vesp. recite assertions onely in that place , and not approue them , as appeares by his words recitandae sunt assertiones circa materiam istam plurimum differentes , I mus● recite certaine assertions about thi● matter that are much different ; or , as after he doth expound it , repugnantes , some repugnant to other , and , if in his iudgment they be repugnant , you haue no reason to conceaue he doth approoue them all . Thirdlie , he doth not name any Catholike author holding that assertion , which you speake of , or the rest which followe ; but tooke them out of (b) (b) Ex 1. p. li 5. capitibus 1. 2. 3. 7. 22. 25. 32. 35. Ochams Dialogues , whence he (c) (c) Confer capita 28. 30. 31. 32. 34. & 35. cum Quaestione Vesperiali & Quaestione de Resumpta Petri Camer . transcribes , and some times verbatim diuers peeces of these questions which you would make vse of . Neither doth he omitt to recite that opinion of all Christians as many as haue vse of reason erring possiblie all together against faith , which Ocham himselfe had said was false , and the reasons for it , those which Ockam giues , he calls apparentes , seeming , yet himselfe in the end of this Question (d) (d) Ex praedictis sequuntur aliquae propositiones corollariae : Prima est , quod semper in Ecclesia vniuersali erunt plures adulti illustrati veritate fidei . Secunda est , quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures iusti formati virtute spe● . Tertia quod semper in Ecclesia Vniuersali erunt plures electi inflammati charitate Dei. Prima propositio patet quia &c. Quast . Vesper . contradicts it , and maintaines the contrarie .

EX sacra Scriptura non conuincitur quod sit aliqua Ecclesia particularis quae regulae legis Christi semper conformetur . Baro p. 363. ex Alliac . Quaest. Vesp . Concilium generale pote● defformari legi Christi . idem p. 364. ex Quaest. Resumpta . Ecclesia Romana quae distinguitur à tota congregatione fideliu● sicut pars à toto , potest haereticari . Ibidem ex eadem quast .

2. THe second thing obiected is , that he thought it could not be conuinced out of Scripture that any Church distinct from the vniuersall , is alwaies free from errour ; whence is inferd that in his opinion it cannot be conuinced out o● Scripture that a generall Councel● is alwaies free . I answere , first , we● maintaine not all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall . Secondlie it is one thing to saie lawfull Councells are free from errour in definition , and an other thing to saie that wee can proue this by Scripture ▪ it is one thing to saie the Epistle of S. Iames hath sacred authoritie , and another thing to saie that by Scripture you can proue it . Wherefore suppose this Author had said in his yonger daies that he thought the infallibilitie of full and lawfull Councells could not be proued ex ●acra Scriptura , by Scripture , it doth ●ot follow that he denied their in●●llibilitie . Thirdlie what he saith in ●hat Question is deliuered ( they be (e) (e) Haec dicta sint de tertia conclusione & suis adiunctis : & de tota ista quaestione solùm disputatiuè & non assertiuè . Petrus Camer . Quaest. de Resumptâ , sine . his owne words ) disputatiuè , ●●on assertiuè ; by waie of dispute , not ●y waie of affirmation ; wherefore , if ●ou wronge him not , you must not ●ie he held that Councells infallibi●tie ( such Councells as had all con●tions necessarie ) could not be pro●ed ( yea and against a stubborne ●●uersarie sufficientlie conuinced ) ●ut of Scripture . Fourthlie , this which ●as said not assertiuè but onelie dis●●tatiuè , he submitted to the iud●●ment (f) (f) Non est ergo quò securiùs fugiam quam filius ad matrem , filius Ecclesiae ad matrem Ecclesiam ; &c. Ad hanc igitur confugiens & sua lege regulari ●●piens , me & dicta mea omnia suae & suorum filiorum tam ●sentium quam absentium charitatiuae correctioni committo : ●sub hac & alijs protestationibus fieri consuetis quas sup●co haberi pro repetitis , gratia breuitatis , ad quae●onis responsionem accedo . Idem Quaest. Vesper . in prin●● . of the Church , therely re●acting or disauowing ( according 〈◊〉 the manner of the schooles , yet in ●●e ) what in this disputation might ●●rchance escape amisse , either for ●●e substance , or the manner of his speech . And finallie , being after much more studie and reading of Scriptures publikelie in the nature o● Professor , made Bishop and Cardinall he was called to the Counce● of (g) (g) Acta Conc. Constant . Sess. 20. Constance , and there wit● the rest of the Bishops , he sufficientlie made knowne that he though all were bound to beleeue what 〈◊〉 generall Councell , and particularl● that of Constance , did declare touching faith . If you reade the interrogatories made (h) (h) Interrogetur vtrum credat , quod illud quod sacrum Concilium Constantiense vniuersalem Ecclesiam repraesentans approbauit & approbat in fau●● fidei & ad salutem animarum , quod hoc est ab vniue●● Christi fidelibus approbandum & tenendum ; & quod 〈◊〉 demnauit & condemnat esse fidei vel bonis moribus ●●trarium , hoc ab eisdem esse tenendum pro condemnato ; ●dendum & asserendum . Martinus quintus , approbante Ce● Constantien . vtrum credat sententiam sacri Const. Con● supra 45. articuli , Ioan. Wicklef & Ioan. Hus , latam 〈◊〉 re veram , Catholicam &c. Ibidem . there by th● Pope sacro approbante Concilio , y● will not vrge him any more in th● matter .

TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum virorum p● à vera fide deficere . Baro p. 364. ex Alliac Qua●● Resumpta . Intentio autem mea conclusionis sicut patuit ●ctis ●eis erat quod data quacumque Ecclesia certae den●●ionis quae non sit toti congregationi fidelium generalis , verbi ●au●a Ecclesia Clericorum , Ecclesia Italicorum , Ecclesia Galli●orum &c Ex Scriptura sacra non conuincitur quod semper sit ●liqua talis , siue consimilis denominationis quae Christi legis re●ulae conformetur . Idem ex eadem Quaestione .

3. YOu conceaue withall what is to be said in answere to the rest ●biected out of him , and particular●●e vnto that of the Clergie where he ●eemes not to haue then well reflected on those words of S. Paul who ●oth testifie ( and his testimonie is in ●he Scripture ) that our Sauiour cōsti●uted and (i) (i) Ephes. 4. gaue Pastors ; and Doctors ●o the consummation of the Saincts , vnto ●he worke of the ministerie , vnto the edi●ing of the bodie of Christ , vntill wee ●eete all into the vnitie of faith , that ●e be not children wauering and caried ●bout with euerie winde of Doctrine . The like wee reade in Esaie , vpon (k) (k) Esay 62. thy walls o Hierusalem , I haue appointed watchmen : all the daie , and all ●he night for euer they shall not hold ●heir peace . And other places there ●re to this purpose verie plaine , that ●●nnot be auoided .

Neither did he finde himselfe able 〈◊〉 satisfie the argument , taken from the nature of a Hierarchie , and the acts pertaining to it , that are alwaies to be found in the Church whilst it lasts , that is , all daies till the consummation of the world , which argument is there brought , and he doth endeuour , but could not finde an answer for it . First he saith that supposing the whole Clergie should erre against the faith , some one of them might haue power to giue orders , to excommunicate or binde in way o● iurisdiction , to consecrate , and administer Sacraments : and so saith he praelationis ordo remaneret in Ecclesi● the Order of Prelacie , which is , of Ecclesiasticall Superiours to their inferiours , would remaine in the Church as , also distinction of degrees ; Sacraments and other rights . But his opponent would aske him instantlie , ho● the distinction of degrees of Prie● and Bishop , of Pastor and people how the order of Prelacie , and powe● to consecrate , absolue , binde , an● preach ; be within , if the Preists an● Bishops , if the Prelates and such 〈◊〉 haue this power , be without ? He answers ; licet fortè non actu , tamen in p●entiâ propinquâ , though perchance not ●●ctuallie , yet in a neere power ; and this , 〈◊〉 passiue power , for if the Preists and Bishops be without , the actiue is not within . How then is there actuallie 〈◊〉 Hierarchie , and the ministration before spoken of in the Church ? he ●eaues it heere , and goes to trie (l) (l) Secundo loco probat iste Magister secundam partem antecedentis sua principalis , sc. quod tota multitudo Clericorum non potest difformari legi Christi , quia Deus ita statuit Sacerdotes Leuiticos &c. ●ō firmat per aliqua superiùs tacta , quia sequitur quod pos●et cessare in Ecclesia ordo praelationis & distinctio gra●uum & caetera contra Apostolum ( ad Ephes. 4. vbi de Christo loquitur sic . Et ipse dedit quosdam Apostolos , ●uosdam autem Prophetas &c. ad aedificationem corporis Christi , sc. Ecclesiae , donec occurramus . ) Imo quod defice●e posset sacerdotium Christi ; Sacramenta & alij ritus Ec●lesiae &c. Ad ista potest probabiliter dici &c. Ad confirma●onē licet supra tactum sit de materia argumenti tamen ad●uc potest dici dupliciter . Vno modo quod licet tota mul●tudo Clericorum contra fidem erraret , tamen aliquis ●acerdos remaneret habens potestatem ordinandi , ligan●● , conficiendi , & alia sacramenta conferendi : & sic re●anent in Ecclesia ordo praelationis , distinctio graduum , ●cramenta , & alij ritus . Et licet fortè non in actu , tamen 〈◊〉 potentia propinqua . Petrus Camerac , Quaest. de Re●●mpta . another waie , which is , though no Clerkes , at all remained , no Bishops , no Priests , in all the world , to consecrate , ordaine , gouerne , preach , or exercise anie Hierarchicall actes , yet the Church thereby should no● loose the power to haue them , an● why ? if none remaine to consecrate preach , or make a priest ? because though she could neuer haue them b● humane power , yet by Gods miraculou● operation she might . And in fine h● concludes , that , though it be te●rarious to affirme that euer it shal● come to this , yet to denie that Go● by his omnipotencie can thus resto● m m Alio modo dicunt aliqui quod licet omnes Clerici haereticarētur aut omnino nulli remanerent , propter hoc Ecclesia potestatem habendi praedicta nequaquam amitteret . Licet illa nunquam habere posset per humanam potestatem : sed per miraculosam Dei operationem : qui sc. diuersis modis posset de aliquibus laicis Catholicis , Sacerdotes & Episcopos ordinare , & hoc suae Ecclesiae reuelare . In quo casu omnes Catholici deberent taliter ordinatos à Deo , sicut veros Episcopos & Sacerdotes habere . Et licet temerarium esset asserere talem casum de facto aliquā● euenire : tamen esset etiam temerarium huius casus ●testatem negare . Quia hoc esset de futuris ( in hypothesi per ●iraculum tantùm possibili ) temerè diuinare : & contra ar●culum de Dei omnipotentia impudenter impingere . Ibi●em . vide Ockam . Dial. 1. p. li. 5. c. 32. & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. ●dmiratione per moue or quod isti praesumunt asserere , to●m Clerum posse falsitate haeretica irretiri : & quia vix ●nquam aliquis sine motiuo assentit errori , aperias vnde ●ti mouentur pro opinione praedicta . Ockam . p. 1. li. 5. c. ●9 . a Hierarchie , or that he woul● if there should be neede , were also temerarious . And no doubt he tha● of stones can raise vp seed to Abraham , can without the ministerie 〈◊〉 men if he thinke good , make infidels beleeue , and ordaine the● Priests and Bishops ; the question i● not of his absolute power ; but whether by vertue of the present institution , there shall be , Hierarchical power in the Church euer till th● consummation of the world ( Past●res & Doctores in opus ministerij do●● occurramus omnes . ) The Scriptu● affirmes it ; and the same was intended by that argument for which h● could not finde , though he we● ●bout to seeke , an answer . And the●efore finding himselfe in those ●raites , he thought it necessarie to ●ublish his protestation , that what ●e said , was (n) (n) suprà ad lit . c. onelie disputatiuè ●ot assertiuè : leauing vs withall to ●onsider how dangerous a thing it 〈◊〉 for schollers to reade Ockams Dia●gues , where is vnhappilie ministred ●ccasion of errour , and whence he ●ooke manie things which you fin●e in this writing .

TOta multitudo Clericorum & Laicorum &c. vt suprà pag. 26.

IT is obiected further that he defends in his resumption , that ●he whole multitude of Clerks and lay-men may fall from the true faith Wherein he is much wronged ; h● defends it not ; as appeares in the resumption of the seuerall parts 〈◊〉 that ratio quinta § . o o suprà ad lit . l. Secundò prob● secundam partem antecedentis prin●palis , sc. quod tota multitudo Cler●●rum non petest difformari legi Chris● where comes in the argument before mentioned of Hierarchicall orde● and acts ; and in the solution yo● shall finde alwaies laicks remainin● in the Church : and the same is al● manifest by his three propositions before p p suprà ad lit . d. cited , wherein he saies the● will be alwaies in the Church plu● adulti illustrati veritate fidei , plu● iusti formati virtute spei , plures ele● inflammati charitate Dei , many ado●ned with faith , hope , and charit● which all will not be woemen , 〈◊〉 lesse you will learne of Ockam th● explication which he suggests ( 〈◊〉 he doth many strange ones ) el●● that is q q Ad secundam rationem ( vt in errorem ducantur , si fieri possit , etiam electi . ) potest dici quod electi comprehendunt viros & mulieres ; & ideo per hoc quod iuxta promissionem Christi tempore Antichristi remanebunt electi , non potest concludi quod illi electi ●nt viri , quia mulieres tunc poterunt esse electae . Ockam ●al . p. 1. l. 5. c. 34. electae ; men , that is , woe● chosen or elected : and then , as a ingenious proficient in his Dia●gues , make the like explication adulti , and iusti .

You will recurre to the print or ●ppie , for an excuse ; which plea ●ight be admitted in some others ; ●t in a scholler that pretends to ha● reade the Question in him , and ●●th vrge his authoritie against the ●hurch of God , such a pretence ●th no place .

§. III.

Waldensis yeilding to the Scripture a preminence in Authoritie , will haue vs depend ●on the Church for the sence of it . 2. She is ●o to declare which bookes are Canonicall ●ripture . A speach of Canus touching Wal●sis his Opinion , examined . 3. When he saith 〈◊〉 Fathers testimonie hath abolished all He●●es , he doth not exclude the Authoritie of 〈◊〉 Church , symbolicall , or representatiue . 4 . ●e symbolicall Church ( he saith against Wi●ef ) is not the Predestinated people only , but 〈◊〉 Vniuersitie of right beleeuers spred ouer the whole world . 5. He held that the Church of Rome cannot faile . 6. and that perfect oecumenicall Councels be infallible in their decree .

HAecipsa fides & authoritas Ecclesiae , quantum homi●● supergreditur rationem tantùm fateor diuina legis ●●thoritati succumbit . Baro p. 365. ex Waldensi Media est 〈◊〉 inter supremam authoritatem Scripturae & infimam ratio● fides Ecclesiae ; Scripturas venerabiliter attollens & exhibeus , rationem vagam hominis ad hanc geminam authorita● alligans zona Pauli . Idem ex eodem .

1. WALDENSIS , saith , the autho●●tie of the Church is inferiour the authoritie of Scripture . What this ? will you inferre that wee th●refore neede not obaie the decr●● of Councells ; or , that the Ch●●ches authoritie is fallible ? Infallib●●tie may be in others besides Sc●●pture . The Apostles were not Sc●●pture , yet were they infallible ●nesses of the trueth . The Churc● the pillar and ground of trueth , tho● the Church be not Scripture . 1. Timoth. 3. Th● may be diuers Authorities infall● and one of them Subordinate to 〈◊〉 other . And so are these two , acc●●ding to this Author , as you may ●by the places represented in the a a Quamuis fides vniuersalis Ecclesiae inuenitur per Scripturas expressa ficut est paenè tota , non tamen est ei●n authoritate par sed subijcitur . Waldensis de principijs fidei Doctr tomo 1. li. 2. c. 21. Fides vt est Ecclesiae Catholicae in hoc accedit fidei Scripturarum ; quod non licet de ipsa dubitare , eo quod testimonium Ecclesiae Catholicae est obiectum fidei Christianae , & legis latio scripturae canonicae . Subijcitur tamen ipsi , sicut testis iudici , & testimonium veritati : sicut praecon●zatio definitioni , & sicut praeco regi . Ib●dem Quod aliquis pater vnus singulariter per se sensit potes aliquo , saltem colore tuo decredere : quod autem poenè omnes quasi vnus homo loquuntur , fidei robur habet , quia vnitas ipsa in Ecclesia hoc loquitur omnium gentium linguis . Idem c. 25. margine . One onely , I will putt here , because it serues also for that which followes . In the 18. Chapter of his 2. Booke . Doct. Fid. he declares how the sinceritie of the Churches testimonie in matters of faith is beleeued in the Creed , ( there , where we professe to beleeue the holie Catholike Church ) and amongst other things to this purpose , hath these words ; Before the written Gospell , this ( in the heart of the Church ) was the Gospell which Iesus Christ wrote , and which the Apostles wrote in the harts of men ; and to whose testimonie euerie one must stand ( in the controuersies ) whether the text of the written Gospell be vnderstood or taken by the faithfull , or subuerted by the Heretick : whereof the Apostle speaks to the Corinthians , saying ●ow are our Epistle written in your hearts , which is knowne and read of all men , declared that you are the Epistle of Christ manifested by vs , and written not with inke but by the spicit of the liuing God , not in tables of stone but in fleshlie tables of the heart . And a litle after . Though the law of nature which men beare written in their hearts , be most certaine , yet much more hath the law of Christ certissimum interpretamentum , a most certaine interpretation , in the hearts of the faithfull succeeding one another from the beginning of the rising Church and the Apostles times , foreuer , according to that of the Prophet , this is the testament which I will make to them , giuing my lawes in their hearts , and in their sense or minde I will write them .

I must not omitt to putt you further in minde that in the place by you cited he saith , b b Haec ipsa fides Ecclesiae & eius authoritas , quantum hominum supergreditur rationem , tantum fateor diuin● legis authoritati succumbit , sed tamen qua● minoris esse authoritatis fidelibus si eam Ecclesia non praeferret Wa●d to 3. de Sacramentalibus tit 7. c. 63. Si verum sem per sit testimonium Ecclesiae , semper credenda est si quandoq●● fallere consueta , in omnibus est suspecta . Ibidem . the diuine law were vnto the faithfull , * * Non licet de ipsa dubitare , &c. vide in Addit . of lesse authoritie , if the Church did not preferre it . And c c Hoc est quod superius dixi , quantumlibet eminent Scriptura diuina sanctioni Ecclesiae , ipsa tamen taxabe● se sum eius quo aliter sentire non possis , & cuius interpraetationi resistere capitalis est culpa , dicit Origenes Ibid●● . howmuch soeuer the diuin● scripture is higher then the decree of ●he Church , ipsa tamen sensum eius ●axabit , she notwithstanding shall de●ne the sense wherein thou maiest not ●old otherwise , and whose interpreta●●on to resist is , as Origen speakes , a ●apitall offence . So he .

AD Concilium vniuersale praecipué pertinet definire qui liber sit canonicus Quam quidem propositionem aequo ani●o paterer ab haereticis non admitti , sed illud tamen doleo vehe●enter quod eam nonnulli fideles inficiantur , in quibus Tho●as Waldensis esse videtur li. 2. doc. fid. c. 19. Baro. p. 365. ex ●no . Addit . Baro , c. 20. & 21.

SEcondlie it is obiected that he denies to the Church now ●●esent , power to determine which ●●e bookes of scripture . And for this ●●e cited three Chapters of his 2. ●●oke Doct. Fid. the 19. 20. and 21. ●ut there I finde it not . He doth in●ed hold that the Catholick Churh ●●d no other is able to d d Et hoc est secundum dictum gloriosum de Ecclesia , quod sc. ipsa sola est cuius testimonium est tantae authoritatis & praeconij vt ipsos libros diuinarum scripturarum taxare , & decorum authoribus certificare possit fideles , nec fas erit tanto testimonio contraire . wald . li. 2. doct. fid. c. 20. Incertum ergo esse non potest cos esse libros canonicos & habere pondus authoritatissuae quibus Ecclesia declarata per omnes gentes & ab Apostolis propagata , testimonium certum reddit . Ibidem . Dico quod Ecclesia eam doctrinam docet esse credendam sub poena contumaciae . Ea dico quae praesens est , quae iudicia directa decreuit à temporibus Apostolorum vsque ad praesens , vel vsque in praesens per successiones Patrum id ipsum sapientium atque docentium ; ei inquam credi debet sub poena perfidiae . tom. 1. doctrina 2. certifie ●hich bookes are scripture , and that ●●e can commend none in this na●●re , but such as were written in ●●e Apostles e e Ipsis patriincumbebat qui tunc praesidebant Ecclesijs , ducere scripturarum volumina ad perfectum : tunc enim fuit temporis plenitudo , & non dubium libri non reciperentur in authoritatem sacri canonis nisi qui de illis temporibus Apostolicis agerent , & tunc temporis essent , quia aliter non facerent de diuinis rebus fidem summam . Idem li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà . daies : but this is ●t to denie the present Church or Councell , power to propose againe the same . There were , notwithstanding the Apostles approbation of diuers parts of the new testament ( which approbation came not , at least so manifestlie , to the notice of all , ) some who doubted of , f f Vide Disp. pa. 431 or denied , them ; as for example , the Apocalyps and S. Iudes Epistle , and the later o● S. Peter : yet you your selues doe , and Waldensis did receaue them a● the hands of the Church by tha● part which then liued when he did Neither doth Canus saie that h● denied a Councell power to propose bookes in the manner wee no● speake of ; but he saies onelie , tha● he seemes to be of those who denie th● power to define which booke is Canonicall , to belonge chieflie to a gener● Councell . It is one thing to saie th● a Councell can doe it ; another , t● saie the power belongs chieflie 〈◊〉 the Councell ; as you will percea● by the declaration of the next plac● obiected . Waldensis , as Canus wor● import , seemed to denie , not the fo●mer , but the later : neither doth 〈◊〉 saie that he denied it , but that 〈◊〉 did seeme to doe so , some things ( th● ●hilosophers vse to saie , ) do seeme 〈◊〉 be , and are not ; and some thing ●emes to one , otherwise many ti●es , then to an other . Had it been so ●deed , I make no question but that ●ou who haue been diligent in your ●inde to seeke in him what might ●e brought against vs , would not ●aue omitted to relate the words .

When you seeke for them next , ●ou will finde in him , first ( as I said ●efore ) that in his exclusiue he spea●es of bookes not written in the A●ostles time or before ; to which pur●ose he g g Waldens . li. 2. fid. doc. c. 20. brings the place of scri●ture , Dominus narrabit in scripturis ●opulorum & principum horum qui ●uerunt in ea , with S. Ieroms Comment on it , wherein are these words , vt exceptis Apostolis quodcunque aliud ●osteà dicitur , abscindatur , non habeat ●osteà authoritatem . And to the same ●enour he himselfe a litle after , let vs ●ote the differences of Scripture , because the scripture or writing onlie of ●he Princes , that is , of the Apostles , hath after our lord , the crowne of authoritie ; I meane , of canonicall authoritie ; for the saying of the Saincts which followed them haue their authoritie , b● not canonicall . Secondlie whereas 〈◊〉 might be obiected that the Churc● in a generall Councell might wri● a booke and put it into the canon 〈◊〉 scripture to be among other book● of holie writt , since S. Gregorie th● great doth professe to honour the● as the Gospels , in those words , h h S. Greg. mag li. 1. Regesti , epist. 24. & citatur in Decret. d. 15 Quintum quoque Concilium pariter venerot . Ibidem . Sicut Sancti Euangelij quatuor libros , 〈◊〉 quatuor concilia suscipere & venera●me fateor , Waldensis there answere to this argument , and expounds th● words of S. Gregorie . Thirdlie , because it might againe be obiecte● ( out of the decrees whence the former obiection was taken ) that i i Gelasius c. Sancta Romana . d. 15. Nec obstat Pelagiana epistola de libr●s recipiendis & non recip●ēd●s ; vbi scripturarum libros in authoritate ple●●r●a quomodo sint habendi denunciat non ad authoritatem per seipsum in instaurat . walden . vbi supra . Pelagius the Pope seemes to determine what bookes are to be receaued into the canon , and what not ; he answers with a distinction , which doth explaine his minde , and dot● suffice to stopp your mouth whe● occasion require , Scripturarum lib● saith he , in authoritate plenaria qu● modo sunt habendi denunciat , non 〈◊〉 authoritatem per scipsum instaur● That is , in briefe ; he doth not giue but declare , their sacred and diuin● ●thoritie . And the same , the Church 〈◊〉 all times , might and may doe , ●hensoeuer there shall be cause . ●hey were by the holy Ghost in●red , and written by the Apostles ●d Princes of the Church , qui fue●t in ea ; and were approued by them 〈◊〉 ; but it hath beene since necessa● to declare some of them ; to giue ●timonie that they be diuine ; and ●s testimonie the Church still can ●e . Neither is our Sauiour offen●d with her testimonie giuen to 〈◊〉 word , who was pleased that she ●ould giue testimonie of him●fe . Of which matter this author ●th much in the former Chapters , ●eciallie the eighteenth . Fourthlie , 〈◊〉 doth esteeme the iudgment of 〈◊〉 Pope , and of a perfect Councell ●e infallible as you will heare be●e wee leaue him ; and therefore ●ch more is he to be esteemed to ●eld this honour to the whole , whe● they be . All which being con●ered , that which you did vrge out 〈◊〉 Canus so appeares , that it is but a ●ere videtur ; without an est , vn● it .

HAec est sola machinae Christiana quae cunctas haereses mel aboleuit , ipsa sc. professio concors sanctorum Patr● secundum suorum temporum interualla reddentium testi●nium Christi verbis , & consuetudini primitiue . Baro p. 3● ex wald . to . 3. de Sacramentalibus ; doct. 3.

3. THirdlie , it is inferred that 〈◊〉 takes infallibilitie from Cou●cells , and from the present Churc● because he saith that the vnanim● profession of the holie Fathers giu● testimonie according to the distance● their times to the * * Latiùs patet verbum , quàm scriptura . words of Christ 〈◊〉 the primitiue custome , is the o●● Christian engine which hath once ●●lished all Heresies . Wherevnto I a●swere , first , that he speakes with● exclusion of the Church present● each heresie ; for it is well know● that the Church which did abo●● Arianisme , and Nestorianisme , 〈◊〉 the rest of the heresies before 〈◊〉 times , was that Church wh● knewe of them ; and that she di● by her Pastors ; and for the most p● in Councells , though not without 〈◊〉 censent of that part of the Chu●●● and those her Pastors which li●● in the precedent ages ; which o● 〈◊〉 or agreeable profession , was ●nd , partlie by their bookes , as in 〈◊〉 acts of the Councells appeares ●his daie ; and partlie by the tradi● of the particular Churches whe● they had liued and died . Which ●●nner the Church doth still obser● in condemning heresies , as they ●se , ioyning her present Authori● to that of the precedent ages ; ●●ose minde she doth enquire in ●●e manner ; that so , by consent of 〈◊〉 whole , still , errours be condem●d . Neither is it necessarie to finde ●at which she doth at anie time ●opose , vniuersallie professed by all ●fore , in plaine termes , and explici● or to finde it in all bookes of tho● times ; the Church informer ages ●d not so ; wee take the same course ●at she then did . Secondlie you must ●tend vnto the words cunctas abole●e hath abolished all ; No one Coun●ll , no one part , as that which liued 〈◊〉 the second age , or that which li●ed in the third , or fourth , hath abo●hed and destroyed them all ; but ●●e whole hath done it . Thirdlie that ●la , is not * * If sola be taken as you would haue it , what will become of your triall by scripture onlie . captiouslie to be stood vpon , least you wrong the same A●thor , who neuer excluded the Symbolicall Church for whose testimon● k k so. 3. doc. 3. & tomo 1. li. 2. ca. 18.19.20 . &c. he pleades so earnestlie , both i● the same place , and in his secon● booke Doct. Fid. in many chapter● prouing it ( it's testimonie I meane to be contained in the Creede : y●● the Fathers ( of whose consent 〈◊〉 speakes in the place by you hee● vrged ) be not the symbolica●● Church properlie ; but onlie , a par● of it . And in like manner , whe● speaking of the Church symbolical he saith it is she onlie whose testimonie is of so great l l To. 1. li. 2. c. 20. vt suprà ad lit . d. authoritie tha● she can certifie who are authors o● the bookes of scripture , that so● doth not exclude another authoritie that is within ; ( for example , th● vnanimous consent of Fathers whereof he speakes heere in the words obiected ; their authoritie were sufficient to certifie the same as you may see by him , To. 1. Doct. 3. and li. 2. eiusdem to . c. 26. and m m Apudomnes Catholicos valet & ligat vna sententia concors patrum : maximè autem temporis longaeu● & patrum successione sirmata , ita vt locum fidei habeat . De quacre ●enda sub poenae perfidiaein symbolo scribetur Credo sanctam Ecclesiam . walden to 1. doctrinâ 2. Verè enim ad omnes haereses compescendas , & omnes tractatus & definitiones terminandas in materia fidei sola via est in qua errare non contingit concors patrum sententia ab ipsis Apostolorum sedibus vsque ad nostratempora fideliter compilara . In hoc enim simile erit regnum caelorum , id est , ecclesia catholica homini patri familias qui profert de thesauro suo noua & vetera . li. 2. c. 25. els where , ) but it excludes authoritie Without . Fourthlie he doth no● exclude generall Councells ▪ by th● Christian world approued ; and h● ●t should , in Sainct Augustines ●es , haue refused to subscribe to ●h authoritie , or disputed against ●t which the vniuersall Church ●hat age beleeued and tought ; he ●t would not haue beleeued what ●s by so great authoritie proposed , ●d bene thought madde rather then ●rthie the name of man . Fiftlie , ●her doth he exclude from infal●litie , and power to abolish he●es , the Gospels , and other parts scripture ; and yet these be not ●t instrument or engine which he ●akes of ; so that you cannot build 〈◊〉 argument on those words , to ●e infallibilitie awaie from all but 〈◊〉 Fathers . Sixtlie , notwithstan●g that Councells , and the present ●urch , are infallible , it may be said ●the consent of the Fathers or ●he whole symbolicall Church , ●h abolish all heresie ; because faith ●re readilie giues assent vnto that ●ch is so vniuersallie proposed . ●derstandings ( not so well dispo● before , ) doe quicklie stoope in 〈◊〉 case , to giue reuerence to the ●h ; and such as doe not , are condemned of all ; and so confound● that they dare no more openlie p●fesse their errour : whence it co● to passe , that none making este● either of the doctrine or of th● who stubbornlie doe persist in it , degrees it is abolished . And this one of those glorious prerogati● which Waldensis so much comme● in the Church . Besides the fores● readines in the vnderstanding wh● it is by grace well disposed , or 〈◊〉 lesse repugnance to render obedie● when it cannot with any shew p●tend reason for the refusall , there d● appeare too more fullie in t● proponent the power of vni● which is in it selfe a dispositio● more plentifull participation of 〈◊〉 spirit ; and brings with it grea● force to conquer opposition . Vnd●standings well disposed , yeild p●sentlie when the Councell speak● when the present Church hath ●ceaued , and vniuersallie appro● the Councell , there is ex parte s●cti , more adhesion ; and yet m● when the consent of all former a● is added and vnited : and more 〈◊〉 there was in those that had , Gradus adhaesionis ex parte subiecti . as the ●choolemen speake , euidentiam in ●ttestante . S. Marke knew the Gos●ell which he wrote , to be true , yet , ●hat the faithfull more easilie might ●eleeue it , he had it n n Vide to . 1. doct. 3. & to . 3. li. 2. c. 20. & S. Hieron . Catol . script . in Marco . approued , ●s S. Hierom doth relate , by S. Pe●er . S. Paul knew the truth in the ●uestion moued at Antioch about ●ircumcision , yet to make the cre●ibilitie more appeare and more con●incing , he went with it to the Coū●ell at Hierusalem where it was o o Act. 15. ●efined . And the Pastors there knewe too , what was the truth , yet ●or the greater weight of Authori●ie they added testimonies of Scri●ture . The scripture many times ●rings testimonies of scripture for confirmation , as this Author showeth excellentlie to . 1. l. 2. c. 20. and our blessed Sauiour himselfe in con●irmation of his resurrection cited Moyses and the Prophets . When parts ●re vnited , Bishops in Councell , particular Churches in the vniuersall ; whole ages in the Symbolicall ; ●ater with most Auncient ; all vnder ●one eternall Word becomming one speaker , and vttering in the language of all Nations , as it were with one mouth , in one spirit , one and th● same thing ; no man that perceaue● it , morallie can , dissent . This proponent hath a commaunding powe● ouer a wise mans vnderstanding ; an● it is a great engine to confound errour ; in which great engine he tha● should denie there were many pa●ticular engines able to confoun● Heresie , wronges diuers particula● in the companie , vnlesse you esteeme it no wronge to denie that honour and abilitie to Prophets and Apostles .

ECclesia vniuersalis habet fidem indefectibilem , non q●dem in generali synodo congregata quam aliquoties err● percepimus , &c. Baro p. 366. ex wald . to . 1. li. 2. c. 19.

4. FOurthlie , to the same purpose● of remouing infallibilitie fro● the present Church , and Councell● he is cited out of another place speaking thus . The vniuersall Chur●● hath faith which cannot faile , not indeed assembled in a generall syn● which wee haue vnderstoode to ha● failed sometimes &c. In which cita●n , abruptlie broken of for aduan●ge , the Authors speach is man●d , and the parts ( such as be re●rsed ) are ill putt together ; so that 〈◊〉 intent and meaning cannot be ●ceaued ; as the learned reader ●y obserue by looking on his ●rds , related in the ( p ) addition . q q Etsi lex naturae certissima est quam ge●t homines scriptam in cordibus suis vt refert Apost. ● . 1. multo magis lex Christi habet certissimum inter●amentum suum in cordibus fidelium succedentium sibi 〈◊〉 ab initio nascentis Ecclesiae & temporibus Apostolorum vs●in sempiternum , secundum quod per Prophetam dicit ●minus , hoc testamentum quod testabor ad illos dando leges ●s in cordibus eorum & in sensibus eorum scribam eas . Quod ●onens Ambrosius , ô verè inquit testator aeternus qui ●ris in cordibus leges affigit suas , & scribit in sensibus , ●ihil aliud cogitare nisi diuina praecepta possimus , 〈◊〉 aliud sentire nisi Dei oracula debeamus . Walden . li. ● 8 and continuing his discourse ; Haec est , saies he , Eccle●●ymbolica , Ecclesia Christi inquam Catholica , & Aposto●●mater credentium populorum , quae fidem habet indefect : bi● ●ecundum promissum Christi ad Petrum qui tunc fi●m gessit Ecclesiae . Ego rogaui pro te Petre vt non deficiat ●tua . Non est ergo specialis Ecclesia non Africana vt ●atus dixit . Nec vtique particularis illa Romana ; sed ●ersalis Ecclesia , non quidem in generali synodo con●ata , quam aliquotiens errasse percepimus , velut illa ●ninensis congregata sub Tauro praefecto , & illa Con●inopolitana sub Iustiniano minore tempore Sergij Papae secundum Bedam , & quaedam aliae : sed est Ecclesia● Christi Catholica per totum mundum dispersa à baptismo Christi per Apostolos & caeteros successores eorum a● haec tempora deuoluta , quae vtique veram fidem continet , & testimonium Christi fidele , sapientiam praesta● paruulis , inter extremos errores stabilem retinens veritatem . c. 19. in principio . That others also may conceaue the same ; it is to be obserued that Waldensis is disputing there against Wickleff , about the Church which is the Creed wee professe to beleeue and is therefore by him called th● Church symbolicall . Wickleff considering that the faith of it is to be indeficient , it being still true to saie there is such a Church or congregation would haue it to be the r r Quod Ecclesia nostra symboliba est Ecclesia Catholica . Titulus Cap. 17. li. 2. Mugit acriter ( wickleffus ) contra Papam & Pastores Ecclesiae sub titulo iustae app●lationis Ecclesiae Christi quae est obiectum fidei Christ●nae , de qua articulus est in symbolo Credo Sanctam Ecclesiam Catholicam . Difficultas autem eius est ista . Quan● credere debemus Ecclesiam Sanctam Catholicam ta●quam fidem , & iterum credere debemus quòd quodli● membrum istius Ecclesiae sit praedestinatum ad gloriam , credere debemus quod iste Papa vel Episcopus sit me●brum Ecclesiae , credere debemus quod repugnat ipsum peccatum finalis impoenitentiae cadere . Haec Wicklef . Actor . Sub hoc globo verborum , vnà cum praesumpto s●● Ecclesia symbolica &c. Initium capitis 17. Prima ergo di●cultas , de quidditate huius Ecclesia symbolicae , quam vti● credere debemus &c. Ibidem . Predestinate onlie who do finallie perseuer in the faith . Waldensis ouer and aboue an indeficiencie , doth auouch ( and according to Scripture , Matt. vlt. Luc. 10. Ioan. 15. & 21. Act. 20. Cor. 1.12 . Ephes. 4. &c. ) that it is to teach and giue testimonie of the truth , in that sort that all may learne of it . And therefore it is to be a visible Congregation * * Ecclesia est fidelium congregatio . It inuolues à Hierarchie , Ephes. 4 Who told Wickleff that all the beleeuers , the predestinated only excepted , do fall from the faith before they die ? or Societie , Hierachicallie disposed . Whence he determines it to be , according to the words of the Creed it self , the Catholike or Vniuersall Church , that is , the wholeranke or companie of the faithfull people successiuelie descending from the first assemblie made by Christ in the bank of Iordan , vntill our times , and from henceforth vntill the end of the world ; and reaching into all partes of the world wheresoeuer the shining testimonie of the faith of Christ the head and author , is kindled . Ibidem .

In which description , by him there proued out of scripture , and confirmed by the testimonie of S. Augustine , he hath comprehended a two-fold vniuersalitie ; one loci , of place ; another temporis , of time : as is more distinctlie there specified in the same chapter by himselfe . And the benefit of this vniuersalitie he● saith , is , vt ( t ) sciamus discretè quae sit vera Christi Ecclesia veramque haben● doctrinam fidei ; that wee may knowe distinctlie ( as , a communitie so vniuersall is found easilie ) which is the true Church of Christ and hauing the true doctrine of faith . Heresies are limited , as he shewes , for time ; and place : but the Symbolicall Church , is both waies vniuersall . And to it when heresies arise , u u Ad hanc Ecclesiamergo quae per totum mundum vnam habet doctrinam Apostolicam , omnes fideles intonante noua haeresi debent habere recursum ; ipsi enim ( Apostoli ) cum vna sana doctrina , adhuc manente , imbuerunt totam Ecclesiam , & ob hoc tota Ecclesia Catholica etiam Apostolica nominatur . Walden . c. 18. fideles omnes debe● habere recursum , all faithfull must haue recourse , as he saith in the next Chapter . The reason is , because she hath x x c. 18. vt suprà ad lit . q. in her heart the Gospell , written by the holie Ghost , together with a most certaine interpretation of the Christian lawe ; and also giues y y Addit adhuc Ecclesia symbolica , id est , quam tenem● in dubijs credere sub poenae perfidiae : addit enim Ecclesi● sic dictae communiter ( id est , communi rationi Ecclesiae 〈◊〉 omnibus Ecclesijs abstracta ) rationem vnius fidelis & indu●bitantis testimonij : & hoc ratione qua est vna . Sic enim ●credimus vnam sanctam Ecclesiam , non quidem gente vel patria , sed professione vnam & fide , de qua ( fide ) vnicum ●cunctis gentibus reddit testimonium . cap. 18. Nam & hoc est credere Ecclesiam Catholicam , credere eam habere veram ●fidem de Deo & vera Sacramenta . Ibidem . Ratione ergo qua Ecclesia est obiectum fidei Christianae , sic facit testimonium abundanter de Christo cuilibet eam vel secundum eam credenti . Ibidem . Definita veritas antequam habeatur pro definita plus exigit , sc. vltra authoritatem Scripturae & Spiritus sancti reuelationem , fidem in dictis assumentis quod non extorqueat , & industriam quod per elusionem non seducatur aut non fingat ; & hoc ipsum est quod sponsus ille Ecclesiae sponsae reliquit in dotem dicens . Ecc●●go vobiscum sum omnibus diebus . Non dixit recum sum , sc. cum aliqua singulari persona , sed vobiscum sum , cum to●a Ecclesia Catholica & Apostolica quae seduci non potest ●ec seducere , & habet fidele testimonium de Christo , & no●it omnia mysteria Sponsi sui . cap. 19. vide etiam suprà pag. 49. certaine testimonie to the truth .

Wee cannot addresse our selues to the Predestinate , for instruction , ●or absolution , for orders ; wee know not who they be , nor how to finde them out . They be not the Symbolicall * * wickliffs Argument , The predestinate do perseuer in the faith , Ergo they be the Symbolicall Church ; Is like this ; A mans soule is rationall , Ergo a mans soule is a man . Church , they haue not all ●he conditions of it . Neither is any ●articular Church , or Congregation ; The Church symbolicall : no , not a Ge●erall Councell . A Councell is not ●till in being ; they be celebrated only sometimes , whereas the Symbolicall Church , is to be still . So likewise is , the Church diffused or Vniuersall , Dan. 2. Matth. 16. Ioan. 14. Ephes. 4. And , against a Councell , or a particular Church , he that were disposed to cauill would pretend that faith were not allwaies in it , and it therefore at that time , no Church ; ( for Ecclesia is fidelium congregatio ; ) whereas the Church symbolicall is in 〈◊〉 times , neuer failing : which thing notwithstanding doth agree well vnto the Church vniuersall ; which is in 〈◊〉 times existent , and in faith , indeficient Esay 59. Ierem. 31. Ezech. 37. Dan. 1 Matth. 16. & 28. Ioan. 14. & 16. Ti● 1. ep. 3. c. Ephes . 4. She only , hath * * The predestinated preciselie haue them not all . See the Disp li. 1. c. 5. 6. 7. li. 2 c. 2. 3 li. 3. c. 1. 6. 〈◊〉 the conditions of , and indeed is , th● symbolicall Church .

This construction of the word● of Waldensis , to one that reads th● whole discourse in him , is plai● and obuious . This , which hetherto I haue described , This , I saie , th● Catholik and Apostolicall Church 〈◊〉 Christ , the mother of beleeuing people which hath faith indeficient , accordin● to the promise of Christ to Peter 〈◊〉 ●hen did beare the figure of the Church , ( I haue asked for thee Peter that thy faith doth not faile ) is the symbolicall Church . Hauing established this tenet , he presentlie drawes from it an inference , Non est ergo &c. that , being the vniuersall Church , it is not anie particular ; as the African , or the Roman particular Church , or Dioces . vide Disput , pag. 619. ex Innoc. 3. These are no more the symbolicall Church then particulars are the vniuersall . Neither it is a generall synod ; such haue erred sometimes , one at Ariminum ; another at Constantinople ; and some others . But it is the Catholik Church of Christ dispersed ouer all the world , come downe from the baptisme of our Sauiour by the Apostles and others their successors to th●se times ; which Catholik Church verilie doth containe veram fidem true faith ( there is one thing , required to the Symbolicall Church , and that which Wickleff also thought necessarie ; but that is not all : ) and testimonium Christi fidele , the faithfull testimonie of Christ : ( there is an other : and the exercise of both followes ) giuing wisdome to the litle ones , amongst extreame errours retaining the truth firme . The Deuil by wickleff suggested pestilent inuentions to abbet Rebellion , and Schisme . Praescitus non habetpotestatem , &c. Nullus est Dominus ciuilis , nullus est Praelatus , nullus est Episcopus , dum est in peccato mortali . Recitantur in Concilio Constant . Sess. 8. & apud Wald. passim . See aboue , pag. 50. lit . r. Here is the sence of his words to the full : and for my part I see no more in them .

But you that can gase vpon chimeraes , would persuade vs there are two things for your purpose ; the one , that the Church of Rome may faile or erre ; and the other , that no Generall Councells haue infallibilitie . The former of these you ground vpon that part of his inference ; nec vtique particularis illa Romana ; neither also is it the particular Roman Church : the later vpon those other , quam ( Synodum ) aliquoties errasse percepimus &c. which ( Synod ) wee haue vnderstood sometimes to haue erred , as that of Ariminum gathered vnder Taurus the Prefect , and that Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian the yonger , and some other . These two parcels then , and his opinion in these two points , are next to be considered . I take them in order .

5. Nec vtique aa aa Suprà ad lit . q. particularis ill● Romana . The forme of speach is negatiue ; and the author by it denie● something of the Roman Church a● ●s a particular Church ; the Que●on ( since you will needs make a ●estion of it ) is Whether he denies ●o be the Symbolicall Church ; as it ●eares he doth by what hath ●ne said of this place hetherto ; or , ●ether he denies it perpetuall con●ncie in the faith , and indefectibili● . In answer to which question if ●u turne to the 48. Chapter , whose ●e is , de praerogatiua perpetuae immu●atis Romanae Ecclesiae in fide Christi ●ab omni ( bb ) contagione haeresis illibatae ; Locus ergo vnde fluxit ab exordio sapientia Chri●na , Romana est Ecclesia . Ab hac enim praestatur hu●nae inertiae dirigendae assistri● sapientia sedium diuina●n , vt nobiscum sit & nobiscum laboret , vt sciamus quid ●eptum sit coram Deo omni tempore . Walden . to . 1. li. c. 48. Quomodo erit vna fides quando pro captu suo ●squisque varia meditatur & inuenit , nisi vno magistro ●ante vnus doceat paedagogus . Ille puta , quem ad hoc ●cium prae caeteris Christus elegit dum diceret . Ego roga●ro te Petre vt non deficiat fides tua . Ibidem . Et quid mi● si Christo rogante , Romana Ecclesia non potest in fide ●cere ? non est magnum , Haeretice , non est magnum vt ●od per se caderet , Christo sustentante non possit cadere . ●dem . Ergo audacter dico , in Christi nomine & Christo ●ante , Romanam Ecclesiam in doctrina Christi esse im●cabilem . Ibidem . Interrogat quis vnde Romanae Eccle● tanta authoritas ? Mihi videtur ex concessione Chri● ad confessionem Petri primi Pontificis . Primus enim confessor fuit diuinae generationis &c. quomodo ergo 〈◊〉 dubijs fidei ad illam de fide consulendam non curritur , 〈◊〉 per quam , totam Ecclesiam suam Christus fundasse co●uincitur ? Ibidem . you shall finde auouched , an● proued , that Ecclesia Romana non p●test in fide deficere , the Church 〈◊〉 Rome cannot faile in the faith . A● further , I affirme boldlie in the na● of Christ , and Christ aiding the Rom● Church , that it is in the doctrine 〈◊〉 Christ impeccable . The origen of th● he refers there to our Sauiou● prayer and his graunt : and concl●ding the Chapter he saith , cc cc Ibidem . vide Sixt. Sen. in Cyr. & Pits . de biblioth . wald . Cy● not without cause extolles the Rom● faith , when expounding those w● ( portae inferi non praeualebunt ; ) te● Peter quoth he , it is said the gates 〈◊〉 Hell shall not preuaile against it ; ( 〈◊〉 Church : ) according to this promise● our Lord the Apostolicall Church of ●ter remaines cleane from all mislead● and hereticall circumuention aboue 〈◊〉 the Prelates , and Bishops , and aboue Primates of Churches and of Apos● in her chiefe Pastors in most abund● faith , and in the Authoritie of Pe● and whereas other Churches are comp●d with errour , she alone established ●moueablie doth raigne , imposing si●ace and stopping the mouthes of all He●tickes : and wee by necessitie of saluation , not by pride deceaued nor inebria●d with the wine of pride , doe acknowledge and professe openlie with her the ●me of truth and Apostolicall tradition . Hereby appeares what Wal●nsis thought of the Church of ●ome ; and by those words secun●m Domini professionem , and those ●abilita inquassabiliter , he sawe which himselfe had professed dd dd Non potest in fide deficere . vt suprà . ●efore ) that this immunitie and ho●our was to continue . And by this , ●nd much more which you may ●ade in that Chapter where the thing 〈◊〉 professedlie discoursed of , I ●aue as manifest , that you did mistake him in your first preten●e , which was about the Church of Rome .

Non quidem generali Synodo con●egata , quam ee ee Sūprà ad li. q. aliquoties errasse ●rcepimus , velut illa Ariminensis ●ngregata sub Tauro praefecto , & illa ●onstantinopolitana sub Iustiniano mi●ore tempore Sergij Papae secuudum Bedam , & quaedam aliae . Here againe you will haue the thing disputed , what he denies of a synod , and what he affirmes . He denies that it is the symbolicall Church ; this is plaine by the coherence of the discourse , as I declared before . He affirmes of generall Synods that some haue erred , as the Constantinopolitan vnder Iustinian ; the Ariminian vnder Taurus , and some others . Whence it followes that the Church so assembled is not the symbolicall Church ; for that neuer erreth . Holie , diuine faith , is in her essence ; and therefore as her essence or being cannot faile , no more can her faith . She hath fidem indefectibilem , such a faith as by reason of our Sauiours ff ff Matth. 16. care cannot be deficient : and without exception of any time , without admitting corruption to the preiudice of her integritie , she retaines the truth euer gg gg Suprà pag. 49. steedfast ; whereas a Councell or assemblie may be corrupted and want integritie ; as appeares in those which he speakes of .

Moreouer there are vnder the name of Generall Councells ( as appeares by him in this place , and elswhere ) some that are sincere ; some that are not . That of Nice was sincere , and was generall : that of Constantinople vnder Iustinian , was not sincere , yet is it here putt in the number of those , which he calls generall . The infallibilitie of such as are sincere , and approued by the successor of S. Peter , the Pope , wee maintaine ; the infallibilitie of all that are vnder the name of generall , wee doe not . Neither doth Waldensis contradict vs in the former part , which is of the sincere and approued . He saith indeed that some which goe by the name of generall haue erred ; you may adde if you please , that others ( like them ) hereafter may . But your argument will not hold ; Some , therefore all . Some men stagger in their faith , men denie God sometimes ; you are not wise if you vnderstand this of all men , or of wise men .

When Wickleff obiected as you doe , hh hh walden to . 1. li. 2. c. 26. Peccauit scimus Ariminense Concilium , peccauit & Nicenum Thraciae , the Ariminian Councell wee know did amisse , and so did the Nicene of Thrace ; The author ( the same whose authoritie you are medling with ) answers , peccauit vtique magnus exercitus Angelorum &c. a great armie verilie of Angells did amisse , yea and the holie number of Apostles , euen in apostacie , after they had receaued the faith , ( before the comming of the holie Ghost , the spirit of truth , to teach them all truth ; ) and yet neither is the companie of other Angels therefore depriued of their felicitie ; nor the assemblie of the Apostles , regularlie without doubt , of the principalitie of the Church ; nor a generall Councell , of its authoritie . Thus in the 26. Chapter ; and in the next , which is the 27. he deliuers his minde touching the matter whereof wee are disputing , in these words , Non dubitat Ecclesia sancta Dei , toties assistere sibi Spiritum sanctum quoties congregati fuerint authoritate plenario in nomine Christi ad fidei dubium resoluendum ; The holie Church of God doubteth not that the holie Ghost assistes her as oft as they by full authoritie be assembled in the name of Christ to resolue a doubt of faith . This was not onelie certaine , with him ; but it is , he saith , a thing which the Catholike Church holds as a matter out of question ; non dubitat ; she doubts not of it . And a litle after , Plenarijs Concilijs Ecclesiae , si tamen maneant incorrupta , Spiritus sanctus adest , & definit de fide . The holie Ghost is present vnto plenarie or generall Councells of the Church if so they continue sincere or perfect , and doth define of faith . And if this be so ; then , not exteriour onlie , as some would shift it of , but interiour obedience is due to the decree ; for such obedience wee owe to the holie Ghost , who is present assisting as was before said ; and , as it is further heere expressed , doth make the definition , definit . And consequentlie this Author had reason to saie ( as he doth in the same Chapter afterwards ) that it ii ii Multitudini ergo credentium est potius adhaeredū , quae cum claruerit quod in Christi nomine congregetur , ab eius decreto vnanimi non nisi cum periculo declinatur . c. 27. is daungerous to swarue from such decrees .

To this purpose , in the Chapter whence you dispute , he ponders those words of the first Councell assembled in Hierusalem , ( which gaue the forme to all others and taught them how to vnderstand our Sauiours ll ll Ioh. 14. & 16. promise ) It hath seemed good to the holie Ghost and to vs . mm mm waeldendens . to . 1. li. 2. c. 19. marke ; saith he ; they said not , it seemed good to the holie Ghost and the Church , but to the holie Ghost and to vs who heere doe represent the Church : and yet , not to vs without the holie Ghost , but to the holie Ghost in himselfe , and to the * * when this authoritie comes in , the fortè sic , and fortè non , haue no place , The Holie Ghost cannot be deceaued . What he doth auouch is most certaine . Remouentur dubitationes . Be mindfull of this note when you come to S. Aug. holie Ghost in vs in the Church , who in doubts of faith is neuer wanting to the Church , Christ promising to her , the holie Ghost shall teach you all truth . And therefore what seemeth good to him , the same also by his instigation , seemeth good to vs .

That he did acknowledg infallibilitie in sincere approued Councells , it is further manifest by that he held of the Popes iudgment . If he thought the resolution of doubts in faith were to be made by him , and that his decision was a truth so certaine that it could not be gainesaid , he without question made no lesse esteeme of a generall and approued Councell wherein the Popes iudgment and determination is included ; and consequentlie , when he questions or reiects the authoritie of Councells , he meanes not those wherein the Pope defines , or such as he approues ; and so , not all that are vnder the name of generall , but some onelie as hath beene said before . Now , that he had that estimation which I haue mentioned , of the Popes iudgment and dedefinition , it is manifest by the 47. Chapter , where professedlie he doth vndertake to proue it , bringing to this purpose manie testimonies out of S. Augustine , S. Hierome , Rufinus , Origen , the Bishops of Africk , and others . The title of the Chapter is , Quod Papa habet ab antiquo potestatem insringibilem ad determinandum fidei veritates & debellandum & cancellandum omnes falsitates haereticas . And in the verie nn nn Orthodoxi omnes ad iudices Christi currunt vicarios , & ordinatè requirunt vt tandem planam teneant veritatem . Propter hoc enim vt verè credunt , licet Doctores , & vltra eos Episcopos , & inter omnes mortales singillatim acceptos petere Papam , cuius moderamen & decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus . Apud ipsum enim piè credebant totius fidei nostrae latere mysteria , & pectus eius imbutum butyro illo prophetico , quo sciret reprobare malum & eligere bonum . Walden . to. 1. li. 2. c. 47. Nouit ( Hieronymus ) apud Papam Romanum authoritatem este ad emendandum fidem incongruam , vel ad probandum Catholicam : & postquam à tanto Apostolatu haberetur vt recta , sine dubio foret per null ●maltum violanda . Ad eiusdem quoque Damasi Papa doctrinam tanquam ad infallibilem fidei regulam Catholici Episcopi illo tempore suos aduersarios haereticos coëgerunt . Ibidem : vbi etiam refert illud quod suprà dictum est ex Hier. de Sancti Marci Euangelio per Sanctum Petrum approbato . beginning he saith , Papae moderamen & decisio pro irrefragabili vero tenebatur à Patribus , the Popes direction and decision was by the Fathers ( marke that , by the Fathers ) held for a truth which cannot be contradicted .

To the same purpose are manie things added in the next Chapter , which is of the prerogatiue of perpetuall immunitie in the Church of Rome ; where amonge other things he saith , that oo oo Propter hanc incorruptionem & claritatem famosam , omnes viri Catholici , quantumcunque magni , quantumlibet sancti , simul & authoritate territi magnae sedis , ab hac susceperunt in dubijs fidei documenta terrifica , cap. 48. all Catholick men , how great , how holie soeuer , haue from that See , receaued documents in doubts of faith ; and that it is , as he speakes in the words of Cyrill , stabilita inquassabiliter , so established that it cannot be moued or shaken ; and more to the same purpose , which in the additions you may reade . So that I may leaue this as sufficientlie demonstrated out of his booke , that you were mistaken in the sence of the words obiected .

Out of that which hath beene related from him , it appeares also ( that I may leaue a note for such as vpon this occasion may chaunce hereafter to looke on him ) first that he puts diuers degrees of adhesion ( deuines expresse it by certitudo maior & maior ex parte subiecti , ) respectiuelie to verities diuerslie proposed . Secondlie that , with him these proponents are infallible , vizt: the Church symbolicall ; that part of it which is now present , including both Pastors and people ; a perfect and syncere generall Councell ; and the Church of Rome as it is head , or the Pope defining . Thirdlie that the Pope , Councell , and present Church , when it will seeke the veritie of anie point of faith , called into question , or the authoritie of any writing or scripture to knowe whether it be diuine or no , is to looke into the symbolicall Church which hath all the Christian lawe , with the meaning , written in her heart , by the spirit of the liuing God , and there to finde it : not in euerie page of this greate booke , not expressed in the faith of euerie part ; but in the booke . And , if after the search made , it be proposed , by the Pope in a generall Councell by the present Church receaued ; or by the Pope in Councell to the Church , all are according to his principles to receaue and to beleeue it . Fourthlie , that the present Church finding and proposing the veritie , and the symbolicall ( in whom she finds it ) beleeuing and testifying the same ; doe make vp one organ , where by the holie Ghost the spirit of truth doth auouch it to the world . Fiftlie that besides the authorities before mentioned , all contained in the Church , ( wherein our sauiour pp pp Ego vobiscum omnibus diebus . Mat 28. qui loquitur in me Christus . 2 Corim . 13. Parecletum dabit vobis vt maneat vobiscum in aete●num , spiritum veritatis Ioh 14. In vobis erit . Ibidem . Non enim vos estis qui loquimini sed Spiritus Patris vestri qui loquitur in vobis , Matt. 10. likewise and his spirit be , ) there be in it also diuers other degrees of authoritie ; as , of generall Councells not including the Popes approbation ; not by the Church , or him , disapproued ; of particular Churches , especiallie qq qq Ecclesiarum Catholicarum , inter quas sanê illae quae Apostolicas sedes habere , & epistolas accipere meruerunt , &c. S. Aug. 2. Doct. Chri. c. 8. such as the Apostles haue liued in ; and amongst them chieflie the Roman , ( though considered with abstraction from the Popes authoritie . ) by reason of the traditions left in her by the two great Apostles S. Peter and S. Paul : of nationall or prouinciall Synods , and the like : all which according to this Author , haue their waight ; though not the same with the Pope in Councell . I omit to pleade further that Waldensis was at Constance in the Councell whereof I spake before treating of Cameracensis ; and passe vnto the next .

§. IV.

1. Panormitan the Lawier , speakes of a Councell not approued by the Pope , nor by the Church diffused : which Councells the Question meddles not withall . 2. It were possible , he thinks , for God , considering his absolute power , to conserue the true faith in one man or woman . 3. Antoninus his mind touching Councells .

PVto tamen quod si Papa moueretur melioribus rationibus & authoritatibus quàm Concilium , quod standum esset sententiae suae . Nam & Concilium potest errare , sicut a●iàs errauit super matrimonium contrahendum inter raptorem & raptum . Et infrà Nec obstat si dicatur quod Concilium Generale non potest errare , quia Christus orauit pro Ecclesia sua vt non deficeret &c. Quia dico quod licet Concilium Generale repraesentet totam Ecclesiam vniuersalem , tamen in veritate ibi non est verè Ecclesia vniuersalis , sed repraesentatiuè ; quia vniuersalis Ecclesia constituitur ex collectione omnium fidelium . Vnde omnes fideles orbis constituunt istam Ecclesiam vniuersalem , cuius cap●●t & sponsus est Christus . Et infrà . Et ista est Ecclesia qua no potest errare ( credendo scilice● ; controuersia autem est de errore in docendo ; siue de infallibili assistentia ijs exhibita quibus incumbit officium docendi , congregationem hanc vniuersalem ) Vnde possibile est quod vera fides Christi remaneret in vno solo : ita quod verum est dicere , quod fides non deficit in Ecclesia ; sicut ius vniuersitatis potest manere in vno solo , alijs peccantibus . Baro p. 367. ex Nicolao Panormitane .

1. PANORMITAN . This man is called from the Canon-lawe to saie some thing in a matter appertaining to Deuinitie , and two things are wrunge out of him whilst he a a Vide 36. q. 2. & Almain . Pot. Eccl. c. 17. mistakes a Canon of a particular Councell , which wee must answer vnto . One is , that a Councell may erre ; another , that it is possible the faith of Christ remaine in one onelie .

Concerning the first ; it is one thing to saie that a Councell may erre , and another thing to saie that a generall Councell may ; he saith a Councell may , and in proofe thereof makes instance in that of Meaux , which was a particular one , not a generall . Againe ; it is one thing to saie that a generall Councell may ; another thing to saie that a generall Councell confirmed by the Pope or by the vniuersall Church receaued , may erre .

Now that the Councell which he speakes of ( be it that he may be vnderstood of a generall ) is not a Councell by the Pope approued or by the Church receaued ; I argue from hence , that he compares the Pope and Councell together as distinct , considering the Pope without the Councell and the Councell without the Pope , touching which comparison he hath two positions , the one , that b b Panor . de electione cap. significasti . in his quae sunt iuris positiuï , Papa est supra Concilium , in things appertaining to the positiue lawe the Pope is aboue the Councell ; that Councell sure , which includes not him ; or his authoritie . The other ( which he did not himself adhere to much lesse proue ; vide suprà pag. 70. ) in concernentibus fidem c c Ibidem . Concilium est supra Papam , in things appertaining to faith the Councell is aboue the Pope ; and presentlie he begins to tell how the Pope is to conforme himselfe , vnles perchance his reasons be better ; where againe it is manifest that the Pope was not included in the Councell which he spake of . So that if any thing be collected out of him to contradict vs it is by vertue of the second part . Vnles perchance you thinke this a good argument , the vniuersall Church cannot erre , as he affirmes , therefore an approued Councell may . And if you should admit the forme ( which Logicians will not doe ) you must admit this ; the vniuersall Church is that Church which cannot erre , therefore S. Paul might erre , and so might the Euangelists and all the Fathers and Bishops that euer were . For they were not the vniuersall Church ; though they were in it .

Neither will the second part , or assertion of his , serue the turne ; since it is onlie de possibili , an assertion of a possibilitie ; and this too , not de lege ordinaria , since the comming of the holie Ghost and establishing of Pastors and doctors that wee be not wauering ; but de potentiâ absolutâ ; if the power of al mightie God ( remouing in our mind , all suppositions and promises now made , ) be considered absolutelie , in it selfe . In which case , the lawier makes this Argument ; once the faith remained in one ( so he thought it did in the time of the passion ; as if all Christians there present besides our B. Lady , and those also which our Sauiour had persuaded all the time and in all places that he preached ; and all which * * Reuersi autem 72. &c. Luc. 10. the disciples had instructed in what part of the world soeuer , had at once lost their faith : yet the lawier who takes it vpon trust , will suppose it ; ) once according to that imagination , the faith remained in one , therefore it is not a thing impossible in it selfe , therefore it may be ( though not according to the course which our sauiour hath established , yet ) according to Gods absolute power . If he hath not insinuated this absolute power vnder these termes so farre as d d Cameracensis Quaest. de Resumpta , vt suprà lit . m. Cameracensis and e e Ockam . Dial. p. 1. li 5. c. 31. fine . & 3. p. li. 3. c. 13. Ockam , whence he superficiallie gleaned it , in the like occasion haue donne ; you are too beare with him , as being a Lawier , not accustomed to the termes of schoole-deuines .

For my part I cannot thinke so poorelie of him as to imagine that he did not knowe the Church is a kingdome which f f Dan. 7. shall not be corrupted , that the gates of Hierusalem shall be g g Esa. 60 & 62. open still , and the watchmen which God hath placed on her walles shall neuer hold their peace , that our Sauiour hath established a Hierarchie h h Ephes. 4. till all meete in vnitie of faith , that euen in the hardest times of all there shall be i i Matth. 24. electi chosen people , and that the k k Apocal. 20. vide Disp. p. 53. camp of the Saincts and beloued cittie shall be diffused ouer the breadth of the earth , l l Matt. 16. and constantlie ( to the glorie of her Prince and Founder , ) in that extreamest tryall maintaine her faith and alleageance against Hell gates , when the deuil is let loose , and doth oppose her with all his art and furie .

The inference Panormitan makes vpon the case which he said possible in the sence before declared , is a strange one ; for he will haue it in that supposition to be true to saie fides non deficit in Ecclesia faith in the Church faileth not ; as if one man were fidelium Congregatio , a Church , a Hierarchie ; subiect and superiour , priest and clerk . That it should beginne , or end , or be continued in one , as a line is begunne or ended or continued with a point , a diuisible by an indiuisible , were something ; but one person to be a Church , is as strange as it is for vnitie to be multitude , or an indiuisible to be deuided .

ANtoninus p. 3. tit. 23. c. 2. § 6. haec omnia quae a Panormitano dicta sunt de Papa , Concilijs , & Ecclesia vniuersali , amplectitur . Baro p. 368.

3. IN confirmation of the Lawiers supposed testimonie , there is cited Antoninus ( the Question being not of lawiers but of Deuines ) as subscribing to Panormitans doctrine of the Pope , Councels and vniuersall Church ; or , as the Minister speakes , imbracing it . Whereas he doth onlie recite Panormitans words , Notat Abbas de Sicilia quòd &c. and hauing repeated them , concludes , haec ille . So passing immediatlie to another , Petrus de Ancharano &c. without more adoe . Yet since you will needes confound their opinions in this matter and make them both one ; one , and the Deuine rather , ( the matter appertaining to Deuinitie , ) may deliuer it for them both ; which he doth in this tenour .

Antoninus . m m Ad illum pertinet Sanctum canonizare , ad quem pertinet quaestiones fidei determinare . Quod quidem planum est spectare ad Summum Pontificem . S. Antoninus in summa p. 3. tit. 22. c. 5. §. 5 lege etiam si placet §. 3. eiusdem tit . Apostoli in Euangelijs & Epistolis affirmauerūt in omni doctrina Petrum esse loco Domini . Idem c. 6. §. 7. ex Cyrillo . Quaeritur vtrum authoritas vniuersalis Ecclesiae in determinatione fidei principaliter resideat in Papa . Respondet S. Thomas affirmatiue 2. 2. q. 11. a. 2. ad 3. Postquam aliqua essent authoritate vniuersalis Ecclesiae determinata , si quis tali ordinationi pertinaciter repugnaret , haereticus censeretur . Quae quidem authoritas principaliter residet in Summo Pontifice . Dicitur enim 24. q. 1. Quoties fidei ratio ventilatur , arbitror omnes fratres nostros & coepiscopos non nisi ad Petrum , id est , ad sui nominis authoritatem referri debere , & caetera vsque finem vt habentur in S. Thoma loco cit. S. Antoninus c. citato §. 19. Sancti Patres in Concilio congregati nihil statuere potuissent , nisi authoritate Summi Pontificis interueniente ; sine qua etiam Concilium congregari non potest . §. 20. ex codem S. Thom. li contra impugn . relig. To him appertaines the canonizing of Saints , to whom it belongeth to determine questions touching the faith : which manifestlie appertaines vnto the Pope . ( n ) The question is whether the Authoritie of the vniuersall Church in determination of faith reside principallie in the Pope , Saint Thomas ( they be Antoninus his words which I relate ) answers affirmatiuelie , that , after things be determined by the authoritie of the vniuersall Church , if any stubbornelie resist or withstand that ordination , he should be esteemed an Heretick . Which Authoritie is chieflie in the Pope . And to this tenet of Saint Thomas , Antoninus there subscribeth ; denying to the the Bishops power to ordaine in this manner , or to call a Councell to this purpose , without the Popes Authoritie . o o Concilium non solum comprehendit Papam vt caput , quod est principale in Concilijs : sed etiam & reliquum corpus Ecclesiae , vt alios Praelatos : de quo Concilio inquit Propheta ; Non abscondi misericordiam tuam & veritatem tuam à Concilio multo . Idem tit. 23. c. 1. A Councell doth not include onlie the Pope as Head , which is chiefe in Councels ; but the rest of the bodie withall , as other Prelates . Of which Councell the Prophet saith I haue not hid thy mercie and thy truth from a great Councell . p p A Concilijs vanitatis & malignitatis abscondit Deus misericordiam & veritatem : sed non abscondit à Concilio multorum , sc. tendentium ad vnum &c. Ibidem §. 1. From Councels of vanitie and malignitie God doth hïde his mercie and his truth : but he hideth them not from the Councell of many tending vnto one &c. q q Ea quae statuuntur in huiusmodi Concilijs generalibus omnes fideles astringunt . Idem , eod tit . cap. 2. in principio . things constituted in such generall Councels oblige all the faithfull .

§. V.

1. Cusanus held the infallibilitie of generall decrees . 2. The words obiected out of him against vs , are indeed plainely for vs ; as in the reading of them ( they are at leingth in the Addition ) it doth appeare .

CArdinalis Cusanus in Concilijs generalibus ad hoc vt eorum decreta à nobis acceptentur tanquam certa & infallibilia , quasdam conditiones requirit &c. Ba●o . p 368.

1. CVSANVS . This man is brought to teach vs , and to teach the whole Church , the conditions of a generall Councell ; as if none were good , but such as he liked of , and approued he was a yonge man when he wrote his booke , and a a Finit collectio &c. quam sacro huic Basiliensi Concilio cum omni humilitate offero , nihil in omnibus verum aut defendendum pro vero iudicans seu asserens nisi quod ipsa sancta Synodus catholicum & verum iudicauerit . Cusanus in fine Concordantiae suae Catholicae . earnest for the Councell of Basill , though he changed his minde b b Vide eiusdem Epist. ad Rodericum da Treuino . afterwards . Neither is the Question heere what be the conditions of a Councell ; but , Whether a generall Councell which hath all conditions that are necessarie , and is by the Pope approued , be assisted to the definition of the truth and be infallible ? in which matter wee shall easilie knowe Cusanus his minde .

In the third chapter , which you cite , he recites the words of Nicolas the first , terming such decrees c c Idem li. 2. de Concord c. 3. diuinitus inspiratas sententias , sentences inspired by God . And after , of himselfe he saith , d d Ibidem , si concordanti sententia aliquid fuerit definitum , per Spiritum Sanctum censetur inspiratum , & per Christum in medio congregatorum in eius nomine praesidentem , infallibiliter iudicatum . If any thing be defined by an agreeing Sentence , it is esteemed inspired by the holy Ghost , and iudged or determined by Christ praesiding in the middes of them that are assembled in his name . This he declares in the Councell of Nice , whereof the great e e Conc. Chalc. act. 1. Councell of Chalcedon saith , that , the holie Ghost did did there certainlie remaine or sitt amongst the Fathers , and ordaine the things which were there ordained . And then concludes f f Cusan . c. 3. vt suprà . talia fuerunt omnia orthodoxa Concilia , such haue bene all Councells orthodoxall .

As for the conditions he speakes of , none which he thought necessarie , be wanting in those generall Councells which wee maintaine . The presence of the fiue Patriarkes he doth not require but when they be Catholik , nor then neither , but for the more fullnes of the Councell . Others may be perfect which haue not all ; but that which hath all , is , he saith , synodus g g Ibidem . perfectissima , most perfect in that kinde . One may haue the whole essence of a man , all the essentiall parts ; and yet not be most perfect . Our Councells are not made in secret ; they be assembled , and openlie , from all parts of the world wheresoeuer the Catholick Church is ; and such as come may freelie speake and are heard . They looke into scriptures , and former Councells , and Antiquitie , to finde the truth ; and , though in the search it might appeare to some sooner then others , yet all in the end approue and propose , it .

DEbet sacrum Concilium vniuersale , regulis Sancti Spiritus , tam in Canone Sacrae Scriptura ac praeteritis Concilijs apertis , dirigi , maximè in negotio fidei , quae vna & inuariabilis necessario sicut fuit , permanebit : & scripturas rimari in dubijs , sicut in sexto vniuersali Concilio actum fuit , & alijs multis ; & tunc definitio ex allegatis sumpta , absque errore necessariò erit Vnde si ea non seruantur maximè libera omnium audientia , ac vbi atiqua attentarentur in synodis quae obuiarent fidei Romanae Ecclesiae ; protestatio iustè , ac simul & appellatio ad futurum aliud Concilium fieri potest . Baro p. 369. expunctis tamen ijs quae diuerso charactere notantur .

2. NEither is there cause to feare that a Councell , assisted by the holie Ghost and defining , will contradict , either scripture , or the h h Ex hoc etiam elici potest , fidem Romanae Ecclesiae , in nulla synodo vniuersali retractari posse . Cutan . Conc. li. 2. c. 4. Dicit Augusti●us li. 1. con . Donatistas , volens stabili fundamento ex de●isione vniuersalis Concilij fidem probare , Iam ne videar ●umanis argumentis id agere &c. Idem c. 5. vid●s quanta ●niuersalibus Concilijs authoritas inest , dum rectè cele●antur . Vnde Augustinus l. 1 Serm. con . Pelagianos , di● , matris Ecclesiae hanc esse authoritatem , quod quisquis ●ntra hunc inexpugnabilem murum arietat , ipse confrin●ut . Ibidem . faith of former times ; he that ●s chieflie interessed in the busines , vnderstands all things clearlie , and cannot contradict a veritie .

That which is obiected vpon oc●asion of S. Augustines words , that i i de verbis S. Augustini cum aliquo experimento rerum &c. fusius agemus suo loco . a plenarie Councell may faile in the experiment of things , and in that case iudge amisse , makes nothing to the purpose ; for wee dispute not of infallibilitie in things which may be found out by tryall or experiment ; but in matters reuealed , and of faith .

§. VI.

Clemangis professed , to reuerence the authoritie of Councells ; and only to propose some doubts for his instruction in some things touching them .

NIcolaus de Clemangis in disputatione cum scholastico Parisiensi , quaedam etiam tradit quae cum doctrina Pontificiorum de Conciliorum infallilibilitate , manifestè pugnant Baro p. 370. Dicit Concilium generale errare posse in controuersijs morum Baro Ibidem .

CLEMANGIS . His worke i● a a Index libr. prohibit . Conc. Trid. forbidden ; and his frind t● whom he directed it , perceaued i● came from b b Quanquam Deum ac conscientiam testari liceat , nullatenus stomachato animo illa fuisse scripta quod miror tibi visum esse , quia tamen vndecun que hoc euenerit , ita tibi visum est , vt tuae quantum fas fuerit voluntati ac petitioni morem geram , dulciora ac sedatiora enitar . Clemang . ad scholast . Paris . p 599. edit Parisiensi , anno 1576. discontent ; being forced as appeares by his owne Epistle c c Opressus namque ( vt nosti ) ante aliquot annos aemulolorum insultatione me tunc grauissimè persequentium , ex vrbe illa fui excedere compulsus latebrasque à facie tempestatis contra me iniustè admodum illic saeuientis alibi quaerere . p. 600. latebras quaerere , to plaie , least● sight . He writes bitterlie against the Clergie ; belike they made him flie . Touching Councells ; he doth not contradict their authoritie ; ( howsoeuer he mistakes the manner of defending it : ) but onlie writes vnto a freind to be informed better in it ; protesting both to honour them , and to be readie to amend what in his writing should be thought amisse . Heare some of his owne words . d d Idem pa. 587. Verilie I reuerentlie receaue , and faithfullie embrace , all Councells , as well such as longe agoe haue been duelie celebrated , as also those which are celebrated now adaies : and God forbid that I should thinke or speake any sinister thing of them . Neither should I therefore be calumniated as lesse sincerelie esteeming them , in that for the instruction of my ignorance I seeke to know , and desire to haue declared vnto me , some things ; that I may not only thinke of them well and faithfullie , but also according to the capacitie of my litle wit , trulie and wiselie speake of them . And a litle after . e e Clemang . pa. 588. I desire to be taught by thee , whether thou thinkest it must be beleeued as a Catholike veritie , that in those things which be of fact , or of manners , or of iudgments , a generall Councell can neuer be deceaued , as well as it is faithfullie beleeued that it cannot erre in faith . And in the end . f f Idem pa. 598. alioquin temerarium esset minus intellecta velle à sapientoribus discere ; quamuis etiam certè paratus sim , si ea quae me mouent dubia explicando aliquid in radice veritatis minus fundatum aut alicuius fortasse scandadali illatiuum nimis astruere viderer , aut fideli admonitu illud eradere , aut ad lineam rectitudinis lima exactiori emendare . Ibidem . I intend ( as I haue oft alreadie said , neither am I loath to repeate it ) in these or other writings to affirme nothing but that which may be altogeather agreeable to the Catholike integritie . But in case I haue proposed , not affirming , but doubting ; or arguing ; any thing , lesse certaine or true , whereby I may be the more fullie informed of the certaintie , I thinke that should not be thought rashnes in me . And the rest which you finde cited in the Addition .

DIcit Christi assistentiam &c. ad solos sanctos & spirituales pertinere Baro p. 370. Non obscure innuit eam persuasionem seu fiduciam de conciliorum infallibilitate qua multi tumescunt , esse Ecclesiae admodum perniciosam Idem p. 371.

ANd whereas he proposeth by waie of doubt , that holy men only were to be heard speaking out of a Councell ; he seemes not to haue remembred what our B. Sauiour said of Scribes and Pharisees teaching out of Moyses chaire , quae dicunt facite , imitate not their workes , but practice what they teach .

That such as doe celebrate a Councell should not , nimis inniti , to much insist or presume , on this , that they are a generall Councell , as if therefore they might freelie doe quaecunque libuerit , doth not make against vs ; it denies not to a Councell , infallibilitie ; as he denies it not to Prophets and Apostles , who saies they should not relie to much therevpon , as if therefore they might doe what they listed . Moreouer his speach is qualified by himselfe if you marke it , non debent vt videtur , and g g Clemang . pa. 597. non vtile crediderim illos inniti ; mee thinks they should not ; I should not esteeme it profitable for them to relie &c.

§ VII .

1. Canus defends the infallibilitie of approued Councells . 2. His opinion of others which are not confirmed or approued Councells . 3. It is a sophisticall proceeding , to impugne one veritie with another veritie .

FAteor equidem quodcunque Concilium generale vniuersalem Ecclesiam representare . Sed dum vrges Ecclesiam errare non posse , verum est in eo sensu qui à fidelibus accipitur . Intelligimus enim totam simul Ecclesiam , hoc est , fideles omnes non errare : at nihil obstat cur maior Ecclesia pars non erret . Baro p. 381. ex Cano. loc. 5. c. 5.

CANVS , Is pretended to contradict vs ; though he be knowne to maintaine the Councells infallibilitie , such as wee speake of : adding withall , that the contrarie is hereticall . In the fourth Chapter of his fift booke , where he treates of that controuersie , his third conclusion is , a a Tertia Conclusio . Concilium generale confirmatum authoritate Romani Pontificis certam fidem facit Catholicorum dogmatum . Quam quidem conclusionem ita exploratam habere opus est vt eius contrariam haereticam esse credamus . Canus li. 5. c 4. A generall Councell confirmed by the authoritie of the Bishop of Rome , doth make certaine the faith of Catholike tenets . Which he there proues with many reasons ; resoluing also the doubts which Heretikes obiect against it .

2. Hauing established that authoritie , he disputes further , whether 〈◊〉 Councell not confirmed by the Pope , hat● certaine and firme authoritie or no ? some learned men b b Dubium excutiendum est , an Concilium per legatos summi Pontificis celebratum , firmam certamque habeat authoritatem ; an potius episcopi Romani confirmatio expectanda sit vt certa habeantur decreta Concilij . Idem c. 5. viri doctissimi , doe affirme it ; because it represents the vniuersall Church , which cannot erre . Wherevnto Canus answers , that the whole Church or an approued Councell , ( which doth perfectlie represent it , ) cannot erre ; but a part of either , may . c c Ibidem . The iudgment ( saith he ) of the greater part ( of the Councell ) though the Legates follow it , is not certaine : certum autem esset si a summo Pontifice confirmaretur , but if it should be confirmed by the Pope , it would be certaine . And in the same manner he doth answer to a second argument of assistance , made for the same purpose . d d Ibidem : euen as ( saith he ) that which seemeth good to the whole Church , the same also seemeth good to the holie Ghost ; but not presentlie what the greater part of the Church shall haue iudged , the same is the iudgment of the holie Ghost : so if anything be iudged by all the Bishops , it is verilie iudged by the spirit of God ; but not presentlie if many fathers of the Councell agree into one sentence , shall it be to be beleeued the sentence of the holie Ghost vnles it be confirmed by the Pope .

3. By the waie I obserue here two things ; one is , that if an author interprete those words Ecclesia errare non potest , the Church cannot erre , of the whole or vniuersall Church , it doth not followe that he denies therefore infallibilitie to generall approued Councells , which are perfect representations of the Church diffused ; for this e e Simile , in S. Antonino obseruare licet de quo suprà . Et nota , post verba ab aduersarijs citata ( vt supa pag. 86. ) seq●i immediatè in authore , sic igitur non ego admitto , vt totum Concilium cum legatis errare possit : at errare poterit maior p●●s Conc●lij , & e●●nti illi poterū● le gatis subscribere . A● que id est quod nos in praesentia dicimus , ●udicium maioris partis etiam si legati sequantur , non esse certum ; certùm autem esset si à summo Pontificeconfirmaretur . Nec enim opus est , quemad modūpaulò antè docuimus , sententiam Concilij omnes simul patres approbare . Canus li. 5. c. 5 , q. ● . man whom you cite for the former part , doth also maintaine the later . And the manner of arguing , is indeed absurd ; because it would impugne one truth by another . As if I should saie ; the whole Gospell of S. Iohn is the vndoubted word of God , therefore the first Chapter of it is not . And were it admitted , it would proue , as before I said on the same occasion , that euerie Apostle , yea all the Apostles and Fathers might haue consented in a grosse , yea and in the most fundamentall errour : because they be not the whole and vniuersall Church .

The other thing which I obserue , is , that without sinceritie or conscience you doe make vse of mens words , contrarie to their knowne professed meaning and intention ; which proceeding , especiallie in matter of religion , is inexcusable . The like obseruation I might haue made in Antoninus , who is alleaged against that which he did openlie maintaine .

§. VIII .

1. Stapleton did acknowledge degrees of extension in diuine assistance ; and maintaine the infallibilitie of the Church in her publike decrees of faith . 2. To be obnoxious to errour in matters not reuealed , doth not any way impeach the promise of assistance and infallibilitie in all that doth intrinsecallie appertaine to the substance of diuine faith .

QVando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent , sed salua fidei compage variè a varijs intellig● possunt &c. consulitur vel obiter disputat Ecclesia aberrare aliquando poterit &c. ex Stap.

1. STAPLETON , is brought , as if he gaue no more to the Church and her Councells , then Protestants doe ; because he doth not maintaine their infallibilitie in curious subtilities , and questions indifferent vnto faith ; nor thinke it so ample in obiect as was that of the Apostles . Where , first it is to be considered , that as in faith or science , so likewise in assistance or infallibilitie , more or lesse extension doth not change the nature of the thing . Mathematicall science in one is more extended then in another ; one knowes more conclusions then another doth ; yet is it in both , of the same nature . The light of glorie in all the Saints is of the same Species and kinde , as the Deuines teach ; though one by it knowes more , another lesse . Faith , in vs , and in the Apostles ; before , and since the Incarnation ; is of the same nature : but more extended in the Apostles , then in vs ; and since the incarnation , more generallie , then it was before . The like wee saie of assistance or infallibilitie in iudgment ; it hath been more extended , in some , then in others ; more at one time , then at another .

Secondlie it is to be considered that the Apostles , who did write scripture ; had infallibilitie in a a Singuli Apostoli de omnibus plenissimè à Deo instructierant , ita vt eorum quilibet de quocunque dogmate ad fidem siuè necessariò siue non necessariò pertinente , pronunciare potuisset : idquetanta certitudine , vt non solum pastores essent fidelissimi , sed etiam magistri peritissimi , omniaque etiam subtilissima circa fidei mysteria penerarent . Staeplet , de princip. fidei Doctrinal . li. 8. c. 15. Quod autem de Apostolis modo diximus , vt non solum in doctrina , sed etiam in forma docendi infallibili veritate niterentur , peculiare hoc Deus esse voluit &c. Ibidem . all they did affirme ; whether the matter were dogmaticall , or historicall ; whether substance , or circumstance : whatsoeuer they did affirme , and put into the Scripture , it is a truth . But the infallibilitie of Councells is not so ample ; it is not so farre extended . This Stapleton doth proue in the place obiected ; where , hauing giuen the prerogatiue to that in sacred writers and Apostles , he concludes , b b Natura nihilominus ac substantia potestatis ac certitudinis , eadem est Ecelesiae nunc , & illius Apostolorum : sicut fontis ac riuuli inde fluentis eadem est in specie & bonitate naturali aqua , nisi ab aliquo extrinseco immutetur : quod his fieri non potest quia semper eundum Spiritum Sanctum magistrum ( tanquam formalem rationem puritati● & synceritatis tam fontis quam riuuli ) successores habent quem Apostoli ipsi habebant : licet in alio diuerso gradu . Ibidem . the nature notwithstanding and substance of the power and certitude , of the Church now ▪ and of that of the Apostles , is all one . All one in substance ; but , In the Apostles euerie waie exact , as reaching to the decrees , and to the meanes o● proofes ; and to the consequence o● forme ; and to the circumstances all ; and this , in all kinde of matter ▪ In the Successors , not so farre exact ; nor in that extension or fullnes ; but in alio gradu ; in another , an inferior , a more limitted , and contracted , degree .

In the same c c Apostoli hanc certitudinem omnimodam & sapientientiam habuerunt tam in medijs quam in fine . Conseruare autem prius tradita &c. quia non tam praeclara & exacta sapientia indiget , sed satis habet si diligenter acceptis & ●emel traditis insistat ; indefit quod Ecclesia succedens tan●a certitudine in ipsis medijs non dirigitur . Neque enim ●nta argumentorum certitudine opus est aperire & expli●are quod virtute in semine fidei later , aliudque ex alio ●e lucere , quam de nouo rem penitus ignoratam explorare 〈◊〉 docere . Sic enim Philosophi &c. atque haec vna causa ●st quare tantam infallibilitatem in ipsa forma & ratione ●ocendi , successorum , Ecclesia non desideret , quantam ●psi Apostoli . Stapl. doctr. fidei cont. 4. li. 8. c. 15. place ( to satisfie by the way another doubt ) you may finde cleerelie deliuered , what some haue mistaken touching his minde , in the * * Metere quae alij seminauerunt , exacta & omnimoda infallibilitate non indiget ; sed satis est semel acceptis diligenter insistere . Neque tanta certitudine opus est aperire & explicare &c. quam de nouo rempenitus ignoratam explorare . Ex Staplet . Relec. contro . 4. q. 2. Relection : those words , tanta , ●nd omnimoda , or exacta ; which are ●ound there ; import in him , a comparison ; not in the substance of the ●ertaintie , or infallibilitie , or assistance ; that , as he said before , is , eadem , the same ; but , in modo , in the quantitie , manner , and degree , which ●s diuers . Out of which diuersitie in the manner , and quantitie , or extension , it comes , that the successors doe not reach vnto the meanes or ●rguments , and consequences , and ●acts , and circumstances , so vniuersallie , with as ample , and in euerie ●ne of those respects as immoueable a ●ertaintie , as the first Masters and Planters of Religion , and writers of the scripture , did ; who were to ●aie the foundation , and by waie of ●euelation to deliuer , what the Church in after times was to insist vpon .

Thirdlie it is to be considered , that , the Pastors in Councell , according to this Author , ( and , as by their Acts you may perceaue ) doe proceed , Sometimes as Deuines , deducing or inferring one thing out of another , and Sometimes as Witnesses of the faith and iudges of controuersie , deciding and testifying the truth , and proposing it to the world to be embraced and beleeued . The former is a preamble to the later ; in which later , it is alwaies infallible whether it be , or be not so , necessarilie , and alwaies , in the former , from which further Question wee do heere abstract . The reason is because their decrees are generallie proposed to all , not to be seene or knowne scientificallie , that waie were verie singugular ; the most part of Christians is not able to conceaue it : but , to be beleeued . The d d Ibidem . Church ( saith th● Author ) doth not teach , ex arte , sed ex authoritate , not by art , but by authoritie , neither doth she conclude as it were by Theologicall science , of God and diuine things , but by the Pastorall pow● which from God she hath receaued , s● doth giue sentence or determine . Our Sauiour did not open a schoole of science but of faith ; neither did he send his disciples to proue the Gospell , but to preach it , And , teach indeed he bid them ; but so , as by testifying and preaching they should doe it ; not by proueing or disputing . e e Ecclesiae pastoribus & magistris decernētibus creditur , non quia legitimè probarunt quod decernunt ; sed quia apertè decernunt & tradunt sic esse credendum ; siue decretum suum ex legitimis medijs probasse nobis constet , siue non . Haec enim est obedientia fidei de qua disseruimus . Ibidem .

Fourthlie it is to be considered that the infallibilitie of the Church-decrees , depends vpon the f f Ioan. 14. promised assistance ; which was not to all veritie possible , nor to all that is actuall neither ; but to reuealed onlie , docebit vos omnia , & suggeret vobis omnia quaecunque dixero , is the promise . The spirit of truth , the holie Ghost , shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you . To things not reuealed , the promise was not extended . The course was taken for bearing in minde and vnderstanding , the lesson which Gods eternall Word hath giuen : and whatsoeuer , in this kinde , the Church doth determine and propose to the faithfull to beleeue , is true . Neither can she propose any thing in this manner , which is not indeed such as she declares it to be ; she hauing diuine guidance and assistance , in euerie such act . This , which you denie , Stapleton doth teach . g g Stapl. Relect . cont. 4. q. 2. not. 4. Ecclesia in conclusione fidei semper est certissima & infallibilis . Marke that , semper ; the Church , in the conclusion of faith , is alwaies most certaine and infallible . So that if you finde any thing declared by the Church to be de fide , it is , according to his tenet , most certaine ; and may no further be disputed . And in another h h Staplet . de princip. si . contr. 4. li. 8. c. 15. place , Ecclesia , quia non ratione , sed authoritate , assistentia , & prouidentia diuina , nititur , eamque infallibiliter promissam habet , nec prater veritatem , nec erroneè , nec contra Deum , vllo modo decernere potest . The Church , because it relyeth , not on reason , but on the diuine authoritie , prouidence , and assistance , and hath it infalliblie promised vnto her , can in no sort or manner , nullo modo , determine besides the truth , or erroneouslie , or against God . Whence it followes , as before , that if the Church doth applie her testimonie vnto any booke , auouching and publikelie declaring it , to be scripture ; or to any proposi●ion , determining it to be a point of ●aith , and proposing it vnto the world for such ; there can be , accor●ing to this author , no further que●tion made of it : since the diuine ●rouidence doth so guide her , that ●n such definitions , she , in no sort , ●an iudge erroneouslie , or determine ●esides the truth .

● . Neither is this integritie in de●●nition violated , or our sauiours promise of assistance broken , if , not in matter of diuine beleefe , ( such as ●or the good of his Church God ●ath reuealed , ) but in i i Longè aliter se habent quaestiones istae quas esse prae●er fidem arbitratur ( Celestius , ) quàm sunt illae in quibus ●lua fide qua Christiani sumus , aut ignoratur quid verum 〈◊〉 & sententia definitiua suspenditur ; aut aliter quam est , ●umana & infirma suspicione conijcitur . Vel●●● cum quae●●tur , qualis vel vbi sit Parad●sus ; cum tamen esse illum ●aradisum fides Christiana non dubitet . Vel cum quaeri●r vbi nunc sit Elias &c. vel cùm quaeritur vtrum in cor●ore vel extra corpus in ter●ium caelum sit raptus Apo●olus &c. vel quot sunt Caeli , &c. vel vtrum elementa ●undi huius conspicabilis quatuor , an plura sint &c. vbi ●otuit Methusalem viuere &c. Quis non sentiat in his at●e huiusmodi varijs & innumerabilibus quaestionibus , sine ad ●bscurissima opera Dei siue ad Scripturarum abditissi●as latebras pertinentibus , quas certo aliquo gener● complecti ac definire difficile est , & multa ignorari salua Christiana fide , & alicubi errari sine aliquo haeretici dogmatis crimine . S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Pelag. & Celest. c. 23. vide Canum li. 5. c. 5. qq . 3. 4. 5. other questions which it hath not pleased him by reuelation to discouer ; ( as , where is Elias , where Paradice , how many heauens , &c. ) not in definition , and attestation ; but in some particular * * It is one thing to argue out of reuealed principles ; and another thing to argue out of others . Of this later kind of deduction I speake heere . deduction and coniecture , she doth inferre amisse . Not euerie consequence orillation , not euerie thing syllogisticallie inferd out of premises , in matter of that nature ; hath infallibilitie , according to this Author ; but , the definitions and decrees , all , haue it . If you knowe not yet the difference betwixt the one and the other , you may reade him , or Canus ; or looke vpon the Acts of the Councells , where you may , with litle studie , discerne it .

If it be replied , that in his fourth Controuersie , he seemes to limit and contract the obiect of assistance , to points onlie fundamentall , excluding all other : I answer , that euen k k Docendi infallibilitas in causa fidei Ecclesiae data , tantummodo in illis fidei dogmatibus infallibiliter definiendis , & fideli populo ce●ta veritate tradendis locum habet , quae vel in controuersiam vocantur , vel alioqui ad publican Ecclesiae fidem necessariò pertinent . Staplet . fid. doc. li. 8. c. 15. Quando de ijs quaestionibus quae vel non necessariò ad fidem pertinent &c. vel non ad publicum aliquod & commune dogma explicandum ( quod vel omnes fideles explicitè crederè debent vel in publico religionis vsu versatur , vel saltem maiores explicitè credere tenentur , populus autem implicitè , in maiorum fide ) sed ad priuatam alicuius &c. Ibidem . there , he doth extend it to all points of faith , which , either are called into controuersie ( at any time wherein the Church is ) or otherwise doe necessarilie appertaine to the publike faith of the Church . In which compasse , is contained , all , that is in the Councell of Trent defined , against you : or in any other oecumenicall Councell proposed , to be beleeued . Your masters , Luther , Caluin , and others , called into question diuers things , appertaining , and intrinsecallie as parts , to the substance or obiect of diuine faith and publike exercise of Religion , as , bookes of holie scripture , iustification , Sacraments , and the Masse . And therefore , if according to Stapleton , the Churches infallibilitie doth reach vn●● all points of faith called into question , it is according to the same tenet , extended vnto these ; which he beleeued so to pertaine to faith . But , in questions that are impertinent , or * * Such as some aboue , pag. 97. litter . i. in marg . indifferent ; or , that appertaine onlie to the direction of some one , that is weake in iudgment , and in some priuate case ; or , to the satisfaction of some proude mans curiositie : to conclude ; in questions , that appertaine to the explication of those things which are ( appendices , ) additions , rather then contained in , or appertaining to , the substance of faith , if the Church should mistake , it were not ( he thinks ) any preiudice to the graunt of assistance , or the promised infallibilitie : not , if in matter of this nature , she should affirme , or ( discoursing as a Diuine , which in her examination of difficulties otherwhile she doth , ) should inferre , and logicallie l l Vel asserendo vel etiam concludendo . Ibidem . conclude , amisse . But , to make a publike decree of that which is false , and propose it , openlie , to be beleeued of Christians , as matter of faith ; that she cannot ; being in her publike decrees 〈◊〉 definition , infallible , as you heard him saie before . And the same he hath proued at large , both by Scripture , and Theologicall reasons , in diuers m m Doc. fi li 8. c 12. 13 Relect. cont. 3. q 4 cont. 4. q. 2. & alibi . places of his booke .

§. IX .

1. Saint Augustine will not haue any other bookes equalled with Scripture in authoritie .

2. Other witnesses , or testimonies of other nature then that of Scripture , and not recommended by it or by the author of it , wee be not obliged to in that manner as wee are obliged to beleeue the Scripture . 3. The comparison of Scripture with other writings , in authoritie . His forbearing to presse an Arian with the authoritie of the Councell of Nice . 4. The Donatists refusing to yeild vnto the authoritie of the whole Church Catholike , and consequentlie of her Councells too , and admitting Scripture , he doth challeng them to shew there the decision of the Controuersie which was betwixt them and him . 5. He did both auouch and relie vpon the authoritie of plenarie Councells , esteeming them to be , in their decrees of faith , infallible . What mending that is which he speakes of .

EGo solis eis Scriptorum qui iam ca●onici appellantur , didics hunc timorem honoremque deferre vt nullum eorum scribendo errasse audeam credere , alios autem ita lego vt qua●talibet sanctitate doctrinaque polleant , non id●o verum pu●em quia ipsi ita senserunt , sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonicos vel probabili ratione , quod à veritate non abhorreat , persuadere potuerunt . Baro p. 333. ex Aug. Ego solis eis Scriptoribus qui canonici &c. Ibidem .

1. OVT of that which hath been obserued from Stapleton , will appeare the sence of S. Augustine ; wherefore he comes next . There are four or fiue places cited out of him , against the authoritie of Councells ; but , for the most part , verie impertinentlie ; and , altogether against his minde . We knowe , there is a greate difference betwixt the canonicall writers , and others ; betwixt the Epistles of the Apostles , and those of Bishops after them ; betwixt their Acts , written by S. Luke , who in all he affirmes or relates is infallible ; and the Acts of generall Councells , whose writers had not that assistance . Wee doe not equalize , or parallell , one of these writings with the other . Wee giue the soueraigntie to the scripture , as being infallible in all ; so farre , that it doth no where at all , mistake , in any thing . This reuerence wee giue to the testimonie of those writers , in what euer they auerr ; and giue not the like to any other , testibus , aut testimonijs , be they witnesses or testimonies . Albe it wee beleeue other witnesses , in diuers things also ; though not so generallie , in all , without exception . But I come to your exceptions . The first is out of the 19. Epistle , where

S. AVGVSTINE tells S. Hierom , to whom he writes it , that he doth not imagine he would haue him so reade his bookes , as if it were a heinous thing to doubt , whether perchance , in them , some errour might be found ; that priuiledge was reserued to sacred writers . I confesse , saith he , that vnto those bookes of scripture onlie which are now called canonicall , I haue learned to deferre this feare and honour , that I most firmelie beleeue , none of those Authors , to haue erred any thing in writing ; and if ( in eis literis ) in those writings I finde any thing which may seeme contrarie to the truth , I make no doubt but that , either the booke or coppie is faultie , or that the interpreter hath not vnderstood what was said , or that I my selfe doe not conceaue or vnderstand it . In Baroe who doth vrge this authoritie , against the Church and Councells decree or sentence , and impertinentlie , you may note these corruptions ; first that for a a Si cum doctiore amico sic disputemus vt quicquid dixerit necesse sit approbare , nec quaerendi saltem causa liceat aliquantulum reluctari : tum verò sine vllo timore offensionis tanquam in campo luditur , sed mirum si nobis non illuditur . Ego enim fateor charitati tuae , solis eis Scripturarum libris qui iam canonici appellantur , didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre , vt nullum eorum authorem scribeodo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam . Ac si aliquid in eis offendero literis , quod videatur contrarium veritati , nihil al●ud quam vel mendos●m esse codicem , vel interpretem non assecutum esse quod lictum est , vel me minimè intellexis●e non ●mb●gam . Alios autem ita lego vt q●a●ta ●be● sanctitate doctrinaque praepolleant , non ideo ve●●m p●●●m quia ipsi ita senserunt ; sed quia mihi vel per illos authores canonic●s vel probabili ratione , quod à vero non abhorreat , persuadere potuerunt . Nec te , mi frater , sentite aliquid aliter existimo ; prorsus inquam non te arbitror sic legi tuos libros velle , tanquam Prophetarum vel Apostolorum ; de quorum scriptis quod omni errore careant dubitare nefarium est . S. Aug. Epist. 19. ad Hier. Scripturarum libris , to accomodate it the better for his purpose , he puts in , Scriptorum ; and Scriptoribus ; vrging the word against vs . Secondlie he omits aliquid , in that part , nullum eorum authorum scribendo aliquid errasse , whereas the force of the speach , and prerogatiue is by that word specified . Thirdlie , because in the words immediatlie following , if they had been put downe , his corruptions had been laid open to the reader , by another aliquid , and litteris , he leaues them out ; immediatlie ioyning others which he thought to be more for his purpose : as by comparison of his citation put aboue , pag. 101. to the words themselues in this Addition , it will appeare .

QVanquam sicut paulò ante dixi , tantummodo Scripturis canonicis hanc ingenuam debeam seruitutem , qua eas solas ita sequar vt conscriptores earum nihil in eis omnino errasse , nihil falliciter posuisse non dubitem . Baro p. 335. ex S. Aug. & ad eundem sensum plura .

S. Augustines minde is further opened by another place , brought , as against vs , out of the same Epistle . S. Hierome had obiected against him seuen authors for his opinion in the matter whereof they dispute in that conference made by letters : and demanding whom he followed , he , ( S. Aug. ) shewes first that S. Hierome did not approue of fower of his owne , so that he was to finde out onlie three to set against the three that remained ; to which purpose he mentioneth , as fauouring him , S. Ambrose , and S. Cyprian , vnto whom ( because be did not himselfe esteeme so of their authoritie , as if there might not exceptions be taken against their writings or opinion in some matter , ) he addes a third , of authoritie incontroulable , namelie S. Paul . His b b Flagitas á me vt aliquem saltem vnum ostendam , cuius in hac resententiam sim secutus , cùm tutam plures nominatim commemoraueris , &c. cùm sint fermè sex vel septem , horum quatuor authoritatem tu quoque infringis . Nam &c. tres igitur restant &c. Si quaeras quid hinc senserit noster Ambrosius , quid noster itidem Cyprianus , inuenies fortasse nec nobis defuisse quos in eo quod asserimus sequeremur : quanquam sicut paulò ante dixi tantummodo Scripturis &c. vt suprà , pag. 105. S. August . epist. 19. words obiected , which are by him vttered on the foresaid occasion , be these , I owe to the canonicall scriptures onlie this ingenuous seruice or subiection , whereby I follow them onlie so as I firmelie beleeue that their writers erred in them nihil omninò , nothing at all ; nor put any thing in them deceitfullie . It is the verie same that was before deliuered out of Stapleton . And the rest of the citations wherein he compares writings with the Scriptures haue all the samesence . * * Neque enim quorumlibet disputationes quamuis Catholicorum & laudatorum hominum velut Scripturas Canonicas habere debemus , vt nobis non liceat salua honorificentia , quae illis debetur hominibus , aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere , si forte inuenerimus quod aliter senserint quam veritas habet diuino adiutorio vel ab alijs intellecta , vel à nobis . S. Aug epist. 111. Other bookes haue not , in euerie part , that infallibilitie ; other writers haue not such ample assistance , as the Sacred writers had .

SI diuinarum scripturarum , earum sc. quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur , perspicua firmatur authoritate , sine vllae dubitatione credendum est . Alijs verò testibus vel testimonijs , quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur , tibi credere vel non credere liceat , quantum ea momenti ad faciendam fidem vel habere vel non habere perpenderis . Baro p. 336. ex Aug. epist. 112.

2. THe Second exception is , that S. Augustine in an other place ( Epist 112. ) speakes not of writings only , but of witnesses ; and leaues it , as it is pretended , in our choise , whether wee will beleeue or not beleeue any but the Scripture . Wherevnto I answer , that he doth not either there or in any other place of his writings , reiect all authoritie or testimonie that is other , in your sence ; binding vs onlie to the scripture so as you pretend . For it is manifest that he doth admit the testimonie of the Church , as infallible ; esteeming it c c S. August . epist. 118. c. 5. most insolent madnes to contradict it ; yet the Church is not scripture . To this purpose there be many places in him , whereof I will cite one . In his booke de Vnit. Eccl. disputing with an heretick about the Question of rebaptizing such as out of the Church had been baptized , and vrging the custome of the Church which did receaue such as were penitent into communion , without rebaptizing , he makes this discourse ; d d S. Aug. de vnit . Eccles. c. 19. If some wise man to whom our Lord Iesus giues testimonie , should be consulted of vs in this Question , wee ought no waies to doubt of doing or putting in execution what he tould vs , least wee should be esteemed to repugne not so much him as our Lord Iesus Christ , by whose testimonie he was commended : now , our Lord Iesus doth giue testimonie to his Church , wherefore , as that Church ( diffused ) thorough all Nations , beginning at Hierusalem , doth receaue such ( penitents , ) so without all windings and tergiuersation thou art to be receaued . And if thou wilt not , thou doest , most perniciouslie , contrarie to thy owne saluation , striue against , not me or any man , but our Sauiour himselfe , whilst thou wilt not beleeue that thou art so to be admitted , as that Church which he ( whom not to beleeue thou doest confesse to be detestable ) commends with his testimonie , doth admit . The same is confirmed out of the Gospell , wherein our blessed sauiour saith to his Apostles , and Disciples , and in them to the Church , that they should beare e e Matth. 24. Ioan. 15 . testimonie of him ; yet the Apostles , the Disciples , the whole Church , be not Scripture . Againe , f f Luc. 10. he that heareth you heareth me , ( saith our Sauiour ) he that contemneth you contemneth me . There is therefore an authoritie aliue , and distinct from the written word , which wee must yeeld vnto ; by S. Augustine also confessed ; and consequentlie , it is not in our choise , to beleeue or contemne , any but the scripture . Nor were the primitiue Christians without obligation of beleeuing the Gospell proposed vnto them by the Apostles , before it was written downe ; as you knowe by those words which immediatelie followe their commission , g g Marc. vlt. he that beleeueth not shall be condemned .

To the place obiected , Supra pag , 107. alijs testibus vel testmonijs quibus aliquid credendum esse suadetur , tibi creder● vel non credere liceat quantum ea momenti &c. Pag. 108. his words aboue cited , doe suggest an easie answer : as , this Others , not commended by this authoritie , beleeue or not beleeue , as you see cause ; but , others , commended by this authoritie , you must beleeue , as farre as by it they are warranted and commended . Our Sauiour proued that those who beleeued Moyses and the Prophets and the Psalmes , must beleeue him , for of him they giue testimonie . The like it is of the Church ; if you beleeue the Prophets , you must beleeue the vniuersall Church , for they giue testimonie of it , and ( as S. Augustine saith ) more cleere , then of our i i S. Augu. Enarr . in psal. 30. conc. 2. Sauiour himselfe . One testimonie may warrant another , and so they will become , in a manner , one . He that obaieth the magistrate , doth therein , honour the Prince by whom he is put in authoritie . And he that yeildeth all due reuerence to Princes , doth therein a dutie vnto God , who commands it . Wee stoope to God , when with all reuerence we receaue his word written or vnwritten ; and wee submit our selues to the written word or Scripture , when wee listen to the Church which the Scripture doth commend .

When S. Augustine in his dispute with Cresconius about rebaptization , was come this k k S. Aug. li. 1. contra Cresco c. 31. & 32. quia nec vos potestis proferre de Scripturis , quarum nobis communis est authoritas , ab haereticis venientem denuò baptizatum , nec nos ita susceptum ; quantum ad hanc remattinet , par nobis causa est . Since neither you can produce out of Scriptures whose authoritie is common to vs , one comming from Heretikes againe baptized , nor wee one so receaued , for as much as concernes this matter ( that is , producing out the Scripture an example of the one or the other , ) our cause is equall ; he shewes notwithstanding , how , euen in this point , the Church in his time and he with it , followed the most certaine authoritie of the Scripture , l l Ibidem c. 35. neque enim paruï momenti &c. for it is not of small regard or moment that , whe among the Bishops of the age precedent to the time when Donatus part ( or faction ) began to be , this Question did wauer and had the different Opinions of compartners or collegues amongst themselues without breach of vnitie , it was thought good that this which wee now maintaine should be obserued by the whole Catholike ( Church ) spred ouer all the world . And a litle after . wherefore though trulie there be not any example of this thing brought out of the canonicall Scriptures , yet the truth of the same Scriptures is held of vs , and euen in this thing , when wee doe that which hath now seemed good to the vniuersall Church , whom the authoritie of the same Scriptures doth commend ; that because the holie Scripture cannot deceaue , whosoeuer feares to be deceaued with the obscuritie of this Question ( and of any other obscure Question pertaining to faith it is the same ) eandem Ecclesiam de illa consulat , let him require , in it , the iudgment of the same Church which the holie Scripture without ambiguitie doth demonstrate .

There is yet a further Answer in the word Alijs . You know that actions donne with ones owne hand , by the motion of his owne spirit , a man reputes not aliene : but his owne . So doth our B. Sauiour esteeme the actions of his mysticall bodie , donne by the motion of his Spirit . Settle it in your hearts not to meditate before , what you shall answer ; for I will giue you a mouth and wisedome , which ●ll your aduersaries shall not be able to gainesay nor resist . Luc. 21. It shall ●e giuen to you in that same hower what ●ou shall speake : for it it not you that ●peak , Cum venerit ille Spiritus veritatis , docebit vos omnem veritatem . Non enim loquetur a semetipso : sed quaecunque audiet loquetur , &c. de meo accipiet , & annunciabit vobis . Ioan. 16. Mea doctrina ●ō●st mea , sed eius qui misit me . Ioan. 6 T●es sunt qui testimonium dant in caelo &c. & hi tres vnum sunt 1. Ioan. 5. but the Spirit of your Father that ●eaketh in you . Matt. 10. My words ●hat I haue put in thy mouth , shall not ●epart out of thy mouth , and out of the ●outh of thy seed , &c. saith our Lord , ●om hence foorth and foreuer . Esaie ●9 . He that heareth you , heareth me . ●uke 10. Since you seek a proofe of ●hrist speaking in me . 2. Cor. 12. The ●pirit of our Lord hath spoken by me , ●nd his words , by my tongue . 2. Kings ● .

Againe . The decrees which wee ●eak of , haue the testimonie of the ●olie Ghost ; and the Scriptures ●ue the testimonie of the Holie ●host . Now , the Holie Ghost giuing testimonie to both these , i● not thereby in himself deuided into two : He is still the same testis .

Saint Gregorie our Apostle , reuerenced the four first generall Councels , li. 1. Regest . ep. 24. vt quatuor Euangelia , as he did the four Gospels . Saint Augustine whose authoritie is heere obiected when he speakes of the sentence against the Donatists , li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. saies Deus plenario Concilio reuelauit . The Church Waldensis aboue told you , make no doubt but that the Holie Ghost assists her , li. 2. Doct. fid. c. 27. in her sincere oecumenicall assemblies : He is present to them , and defines in them . So d● the Apostles beleeue too , Act. 15. attributing their decree to the Holie Ghos● whose assistance was * * Suggeret vobis omnia . Ioh. 14. In vobis erit . Ibidem . Docebit vos omnem veritatem . c. 16. promised It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghos● and to vs . This for Councels . No● for Scripture .

Well spake the Holie Ghost by Esa● the Prophet vnto our Fathers . A● vlt. God who at sundrie times and 〈◊〉 diuers manners , spake in times pas● vnto the Fathers by the Prophets . He● 1. He spake by the mouth of his ho● Prophets which haue beene since 〈◊〉 world began . Luc. 1. Holie men of God spake as they were moued by the Holie Ghost . 2. Pet. 1.

In a word . There are diuisions of graces , but one Spirit : and there are diuisions of operations , but one Lord : and there are diuisions of ministrations , but one God ; who worketh all in all . And the manifestation of the Spirit is giuen to euerie one , to profit . To one &c. Vide Disput. li. 3 vbi agitur de Spiritus Sancti assistentia . And all these things worketh one and the same Spirit , diuiding to euerie one according as it will . 1. Cor. 12.

I forbeare to note that Saint Augustine speakes in the place obiected of a point * * Cùm enim petiuisses vt de inuisibili Deo , vtrum peroculos corporeos possit videri , prolixè aliquid copioseque ad te scriberem , negare non potui . S. Aug. Epist. 112. Quod non sic ostendero , vt aut corporis , aut animi sensu , visum perceptumque teneatur , & tamen dixero aliquid quod aut verum quidem aut falsum esse necesse sit sed nullo illorum duûm genere videatur , restat vt tantum modo credatur vel non credatur . Sed si dininarum Scripturarum , earum sc. quae canonicae in Ecclesia nominantur , perspicua ( quod dixero ) firmatur authoritate , sine vlla dubitatione credendum est . Alijs verò testibus &c. vt suprà . Ibidem . Dico itaque quod visuri sint Deum in ipso corpore ; sed vtrum per ipsum , sicut per corpus nunc videmus solem , lunam , stellas , mare , ac terram , & quae sunt in ea , non parua quaestio est . S. Aug. li 22. de Ciuit. Dei c. 29. Ratiocinatio illa Philosophorum qua disputant ita mentis aspectu intelligibilia videri , & sensu corporis sensibilia id est corporalia , vt nec intelligibilia per corpus , nec corporalia per scipsa mens valeat intueri , si posset nobis esse certissima , profectò certum esset per oculos corporis etiam spiritalis nullo modo posse videri Deum . Sed istam ratiocinationem & vera ratio & prophetica irridet authoritas . Ibidem . Tametsi nec Scripturae , nec Conciliorum , nec Patrum testimonijs expressè definitum sit , non posse Deum oculo corporeo videri , id tamé adeo efficaci ratione naturali &c. Vasquez 1. p. disp. 40 c. 2. not determined by the Church : whence ariseth a third Answer . And he that can but English his m m Inspiciatur codex manuscriptus . words , will himself espie a fourth ; and a fift .

Quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata . Baro. p. 336 ex Aug. 3. The third exception is , that Councells according to S. Augustine , be not equall to the Scripture . But I see not how any thing can be drawne hence against their infallibilitie in decrees . Wee doe not equall the Apostles or the Prophets to our Sauiour Iesus Christ ; nor the written word , with the eternall and increated word ; yet , the Prophets and the Apostles , and the Scripture or written word , are infallible . Moreouer ; the Canonicall Scriptures are infallible in all what euer they auouch , of what argument or matter soeuer it be , which latitude of infallibilitie wee finde not in the acts of Generall Councels ; nor in any other booke or writing , as you were told before ; and , though I doe not , your selfe will , repeate againe out of S. Augustine , quis n n S. Aug. li. 2. de bapt. contr. Donat. c. 3. nesciat Sanctam Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamenti certis suis terminis contineri , eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi , vt de illa omninò dubitari & disceptari non possit vtrum verum vel rectum sit quicquid in ea scriptum esse constiterit ? That quicquid , doth import an amplitude of infallibilitie , which Councells haue not ; and therefore they are not equall vnto Scripture . The Donatists excepted against a Councell , because it had in it registred the daie and the Consuls . o o Etiam hinc gestis ipsis Cirtensibus calumniabantur quia ibi dies & Consules legebantur ; & exigebant à nobis vt aliqua Ecclesiastica Concilia proferremus , vbi dies recitarentur & consules , &c. etiam hoc exigebant vt de Scripturis sanctis ostenderemus alicubi dies & Consules esse conscriptos : quasi Episcoporum Concilia Scripturis canonicis aliquando fuerint comparata , aut possunt etiam ipsi de Scripturis sanctis proferre Concilium vbi Apostoli iudices sederint & accusatum aliquem damnauerint vel absoluerint . Et tamen respondebimus eis etiam Prophetas libros praenotatis & definitis commendasse temporibus , quo anno , cuius regis , &c. S. Aug. li. cont. Donatist . post Collat. c. 15. Requiring of the Catholikes to shewe any where out of Scripture , where the daies and consuls were registred and enrolled . Wherevnto S. Augustine answers , that Councells are not parallelled with Scripture ; the one ( to wit , the Councell ) may doe well , in registring both daies and Consuls , though the other doe not so ; or , they may be added , and not by the authoritie of the Councell ; though nothing be registred in the Scripture , but by the direction of the holie Ghost . The acts of Councells are not equalized in exactnes , and extent of infallibilitie , to the books written by Gods Secretaries ; wee giue the prerogatiue to the Scriptures , and so do the words obiected out of S. Augustine ; which are cited in the margine .

In the same place whence they were taken he tels how the Catholikes , did forbeare to examine , why in one Councell the daie was noted , and in the other not , quia illi ( Donatistae ) vanas moras volebant innectere ; and all heretikes are of the same condition , they hinder with impertinent Cauills the processe of the Catholikes arguments , and catch at all occasions to trifle out the time . For the same cause , disputing in another place with an Arian , he did forbeare to vrge against him the authoritie of the Councell of Nice , against which the heretick tooke exceptions , opposing the Ariminian Councell . The examen of which two points , thereby called into controuersie ; I meane , the lawfulnes of the one , and the vnlawfullnes of the other ; would haue taken vp the time , and transferd the dispute into another question ; which heretikes greedilie desire when they cannot answer . but S. Augustine would not permit that scope to his aduersarie : and therefore , hauing mentioned the two foresaid Councells , and in honour of the one which had defined the thing he was disputing of , said , it p p S. Aug li. 3. contra Max. c. 14. was there veritatis authoritate & authoritatis veritate firmatum , established by the authoritie of truth and truth of authoritie ; and contrariwise , of the other ; that there were multi paucorum fraude decepti , many deceaued by the fraude or circumuention of a fewe , whereby hereticall impietie endeuoured to weaken what the Catholike fathers in the power of truth and authoritie had established ; Sed nunc nec ego Nicenum , nec tu debes Ariminense , tanquam praeiudicaturus proferre Concilium ; nec ego huius authoritate , nec tu illius detineris . Scripturarum authoritatibus , non quorumque proprijs , sed vtrisque communibus testibus &c Baro p. 337. ex Aug. hauing I saie mentioned these two Councells , he forbeares to vrge his argument out of the authoritie of the Nicene Councell , and makes it out of that authoritie which his aduersarie did admit ; thereby the sooner to conclude , being so to dispute onlie about the meaning of the words he was to bring , and needing not to argue for his authoritie whose words they were . But now ( for both of vs be content with this course ) neither doe I , the Nicene , neither oughtest thou as by way of preiudice , produce , the Ariminian Councell : neither am I held in with the authoritie of this ( the Ariminian , ) nor thou , of that , ( the Nicene . ) thou doest assume to thy selfe , the libertie not to obaie it , and out * * Infrà , in fi . huius relectionis ad sextum . of thy malice art not held in , with that great authoritie , though thou , and all others , ought to be ; since q q Hoc est illud homousion quod in Concilio Nicaeno aduersus haereticos Arianos à Catholicis Patribus Veritatis authoritate & authoritatis veritate firmatum est : quod postea in Concilio Ariminensi propter nouitatem in verbis minus quam oportuit intellectum , quam tamen fides antiqua pepera● , multis paucorum fraude deceptis , haeretica impietas sub haeretico Imperatore Constantio labefactare tentauit . Sed post non longum tempus libertate Catholicae fidei praeualente &c. S. Aug. li 3. contra Maxim. c. 14. Sed nunc nec ego &c. ( vt supra in marg. ) Ibidem . the authoritie of truth it selfe , which cannot lie , doth there establish the thing which wee dispute of . See what S. Athanasius hath testified of the authoritie of that Councell to conuince Heretiks . Efficax ad omnem impietatem euertendam &c. infrà in Addition : ad Athan.

PEtit Augustinus à Donatistis vt Ecclesiam suam demonstrent Non in sermonibus & rumoribus Afrorum , non in Concilijs Episcoporum suorum , non in literis quorumlibet disputatorum , non in signis & prodigijs falla●ibus &c. sed in praescripto legis , in Prophetarum praedictis , in Euangelistarum praedicationibus . Baro. p. 337. & in eandem sententiam plura p. 338.

4. THe fourth exception out of S. Augustine is , that disputing with the Donatists he vrged them to shewe by Scripture how theirs and not the Catholike or vniuersall , was the true Church ; and would not haue the matter tryed by their Councells . I answer that though the Church once knowne , and her authoritie admitted , that will serue to determine controuersies , as you heard S. Augustine saie before ; yet , when the Question is of the Church it selfe , Whether it be a thing in the intention of our Sauiour confined to one Nation , or extended ouer all , and , with an Aduersarie who doth admit Scripture ; the way to demonstrate against him ( vt ex tuis concessionibus &c. S. Aug. li. con . Cresc . c. 33. ) the way I saie , to demonstrate against him , is , to looke vpon the Prophecies and see the description of it there ; and , to harken withall what our Sauiour in the Gospell hath deliuered , of it . The Donatists , with whom S. Augustine deales , admitted the canonicall bookes wherein these two things are ; and they being once admitted , the Question might be defined out of them . And , of the testimonies of the Lawe and Prophets and Psalmes ; and , of our blessed Sauiour himselfe ; in this controuersie of the Church , S. Augustine said vnto the Donatists r r S. Aug. de vnit . Eccles. cap. 16. haec sunt ca●sae nostrae documenta , haec fundamenta , haec firmamenta ; the cause he speakes of , was , Whether the Donatists i● Africk , or the Catholikes in all Nations , were the Church ; whether 〈◊〉 were a thing confined vnto the limits of that contrey or extended ouer all the world , according to Gods intention ? and , the testimonies of our Sauiour , and of the Law , and of the Prophets and Psalmes , these testimonies he saith , were documents and foundations and establishments of this cause . He was not to proue it out of Councells ; for he that denies the whole , doth withall reiect the authoritie of each part , or what euer is within the whole ; they who condemned and opposed the whole Catholike Church did withall sleight the authoritie of her Councells , as Pagans also doe ; but he was to proue it by a principle , which they reiected not .

Neither doth it followe that Councells therefore in themselues are not worthie of beleefe , or infallible in their assertion ; or , that S. Augustine did not esteeme them so when to conuince the Donatists he tooke his arguments from the Prophets to confirme or proue the foresaid point . S. Peter heard a voice from s s 2. Petr. 1. heauen testifying of our Sauiour , yet he confirmes it the same way , firmiorem babemus Propheticum sermonem , wee haue the prophets words which yet confirme vs more : and our B. Sauiour , though most worthie of credit , as being the truth it selfe , confirmed his resurrection , and other mysteries , to the Disciples , by the same t t Ipse Dominus Iesus cum resurrexisset à mortuis , & discipulorum oculis videndum , manibusque tangendum corpus suum offerret , ne quid tamen fallaciae se pati arbitrarentur , magic eos testimonijs legis & propheratarū & psalmorum confirmandos esse iudicauit , ostendens ea de se impleta quae fuerant tanto antè praedicta . S. Augu. de vnit . Eccles. c. 16. meanes . One testimonie , as I said before vpon the like occasion , doth illustrate another ; and many ioyned together , doe more easilie master our vnderstanding , and make it yeeld obedience to the truth .

For the better comprehension of S. Augustines minde in this matter , I will adde a word or two more touching this waie of discouering a truth in Religion ; suppose it be , whether Iesus be the Messias and Redeemer of the world ? or , whether this or that congregation , be the Church of the Messias ? For the notice of the former of these two , reade the Prophets , where you shall finde that a Messias shall come , that he shall be borne in Bethlem , preach , doe miracles ; be resisted and reiected by the Iewes , who were keepers of these bookes of Prophesies ; be persecuted , scourged , put to death , pierced ; and after death rise againe ; and be acknowledged and adored by the Gentiles . This you reade there ; and it is a good direction ; but this is not all . You must finde out the man , to whom this description doth agree ; and , in the comparison of them both together , the man Iesus with the circumstances of his birth , life , and death , to the propheticall description ; and the Prophesie to the man , in this comparison I say you knowe that which you looke for , vizt. that , Iesus is the Messias and redeemer of the world , when you would get knowledge of the later , viz. which companie is the Church , you first take notice of a companie of people , professing one faith , in all Nations , beginning at Hierusalem : defending it , by her Pastors u u Vt omittam sapientiam ( syncerissimam ) quam in Ecclesia esse Catholica non creditis , multa sunt alia quae in eius gremio me iustissimè teneant . Tenet consensio populorum atque gentium ; tenes authoritas , miraculis inchonta , spe nutrita , charitate aucta , vetustate firmata : tenet ab ipsa sede Petri Apostoli , cui pascendas oues suas post resurrectionem Dominus commendauit , vsque ad praesentem episcopatum successio sacerdotum : tenet postremò ipsum Catholicae nomen &c. S. August . cont . Epist. Fundamenti c. 4. Ego verò Euangelio non crederem nisi me Catholicae Ecclesiae commoueret authoritas . Ibid. c. 5. Cum igitur tantum auxilium Dei , tantum profectum fructumque videamus , dubitabimus nos eius Ecclesiae cōderegremio , quae vsque ad confessionem generis humani , ab apostolica sede per successiones episcoporum , frustra haereticis circumlatrantibus , & partim plebis ipsius iudicio , partim conciliorum grauitate , partim etiam miraculorum maiestate damnatis , culmen authoritatis obtinuit ? cui nolle primas dare vel summae profecto impietatis est , vel praecipitis arrogantiae . S. Aug. de vtil credendi c. 17. in Councells , and otherwise ; offering to God , euerie where Sacrifice or oblation , leading an innocent life in exteriour profession ; and , confirming , with miracles , her beleefe and doctrine ; but this alone , so abstracted from the increate authoritie , doth not breed an act of diuine beleefe that this companie is the Church of God ; wherefore you goe further , and in the Prophets , and other parts of the Bible , reade a description of the Church , diffused ouer all the world beginning at Hierusalem , with power to meet in Councell , and assistance of the Spirit ; offering to God , in all Nations , a cleane oblation● disposed Hierarchicallie , with her watchmen euer on her walles ; he● Pastors readie to maintaine the truth , and attending carefullie to the flock that by Errour they be not circumuented : and then , comparing one of these vnto the other , vizt. the companie to the prophesie , the prophecie to the companie ; in the comparison you finde , and beleeue , ( with an act of diuine faith ) the true Church . It is this , as I conceaue which S. Augustine points at , in the place before cited , when he saith our Sauiour confirmed the faith o● his resurrection by testimonies o● the Prophets , x x S. Aug. de vnit . Eccles. c. 16 ostendens ea de s● impleta , que fuerant tanto ante praedicta , shewing those things to be fulfilled of him , which so longe before were for●told . And to this end he shewed hi● hands , and side , when he did appeare after his resurrection . Which brought his disciples in minde of , foderunt manus meas & pedes meos ; aspicient ad me quem confixerunt , they haue digged my hands and my feete ; they shall looke vpon me whom they haue pierced ; and the rest mouing them to faith ; and S. Thomas putting his hand in to the wound , in his Master found God .

How to finde the Church in this manner , you haue beene tould y y Disp. li. 2. els-where . Looking all about , on the world , and into monuments of antiquitie , you see a great companie of people , reaching from the Apostles time , and stretched out into all Nations , communicating with the See Apostolike in the profession of one and the same Religion , and holding out a booke to all that will reade it . You reade ; and obserue . And considering the companie , you percaue the booke is a prophesie ; for , being written long before the companie was extant , it doth describe it perfectlie ; and foretels the comming of it ; with diuers particulars that come not of necessitie but of election and free choise : considering the booke , you perceaue the companie to be the Church ; for , there you finde it so deliuered and affirmed by him that made the booke , Disp p. 177. who foreseeing things future , ( many ages before they came to passe ) certainly foretold of it ; and is worthilie belieued , as hauing such an infinite foresight and certaine comprehension of all kind of things future .

ET ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones vel prouincide fiunt plenariorum conciliorum authoritati , quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano , fine vllis ambagibus cedere ; ipsaque plenaria saepe priora posterioribus emendari , cùm aliquo experimento rerum aperitur quod clausum erat , & cogno cit●r quod latebat . Baro. p. 339. ex Aug.

5. IN the fift place are obiected out of S. Augustine those words , Prouinciall Councells without all tergiuersation giue place to the authoritie of generall Councells assembled out of all the Christian world , and many times the precedent plenarie or generall Councells are mended by the following ( plenarie Councels ) when by some experiment of things , that is opened which was shut , and that knowne which was vnknowne . For the vnderstanding of which words , it is to be noted , first , that S. Augustine is there disputing with the Donatists , who amongst other things had obiected against the Catholikes , for their errour , Saint Cyprians au●horitie , and his writings or Epistles ; and a Councell which he made , whe●ein their tenet of rebaptization was ●ffirmed . To which three points he ●here answers : first , if the example ●r authoritie of S. Cyprian were of ●uch esteeme with them , they should ●ather followe him in embracing ●he communion of the * * Si authoritas Cypriani seq●ēda est , magis ea sequenda est in vnitate seruanda , quam in Ecclesiae consuetudine commutanda . Si autem Concilium eius attenditur , huic est vniuersae Ecclesiae posterius Conci●●um praeponendum S. Aug. li. 2. de Bap. c. 9 vide etiam c. 1. eiusdem li. Church ; which he did ; and not breake into ●hisme , which was a thing he de●ested . Secondlie the letters and wri●ngs of S. Cyprian ( and it is the ●me of other Bishops writings ) are ●ot to be presumed so entire for ●uth , that nothing in them z z Certè nobis obijcere soletis Cypriani literas , Cypriani sententiam , Cypriani concilium . Cur authoritatem Cypriani pro vestro schismate assumitis , & eius exemplum pro Ecclesiae pace respuitis ? Quis autem nesciat Sancta●● Scripturam canonicam tam veteris quam noui testamen●ti certis suis terminis contineri , eamque omnibus posteriorum Episcoporum literis ita praeponi vt de illa omni● no dubitari non poss●t vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum f● quicquid in ea scriptum esse constiterit ? Episcoporum a●tem literas quae post confirmatum canonem vel scripsunt vel scribuntur , & per sermonem fortè sapientiore● cuiuslibet in ea re peritioris , & per aliorum episcoporu● grauiorem authoritatem , doctiorumque prudentiam , 〈◊〉 per concilia , licere reprehendi si quid in eis fortè a verita● deuiatum est . Et ipsa concilia quae per singulas regiones & 〈◊〉 ( vt suprà pag. 128. ) S. Aug. li. 2. de Baptis . con . Donat● c. 3. may ●e reprehended : such integritie of an ●pistle or other writing ( vt de illa ●ninò dubitari & disceptari non pos● vtrum verum vel vtrum rectum 〈◊〉 quicquid inea Scriptum esse constiterit , ) is the prerogatiue of hol● Scripture . Thirdlie prouinciall Synods ( such as that of S. Cyprian ) yeel● vnto generall Councells , which a● assembled out of the whole worl● aa aa S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. cap. 9. vniuersum partibus , semper in● optimo praeponitur , the whole is deso●uedlie preferd before the part . Such 〈◊〉 Councell , hath now determined th● controuersie ; the world subscribe● and S. Cyprian would haue yeeld● too ; wherefore you haue no reaso● to stand any longer , vpon his Cou●cell , or his writings ; or to pretend 〈◊〉 example and authoritie .

By this S. Augustine hath fullie answered the Donatists obiection . Yet , hauing by that occasion , mentioned generall Councells , * * Our B. Sauiour sometimes in his answers taught more then was demaunded , as Matth. 21 36. Queadmodum in superioribus cum de resurrectione interrogaretur , plus docuit quam tentantes petebant : sic in hoc loco de primo interrogatus mandato , secundum etiam non valdè quàm primum inferius spo●te attulit . S. Chry. Homil. 72. in Matth. of him selfe he goes further ; and saies , that some of those , otherwhile , may be ●mended also ; bb bb Suprà pag. 128. when by some experiment of things that is opened which was shut vp before , and that knowne which was vnknowne . Where , aduisedlie , ( treating of so great a matter , ) ●he hath ballanced his words ; and not ●eft the speach , absolute ; as he did the other next before , of prouinciall Councells ; but limited it , with two qualifications ; the one restraining it from being extended vnto all ; saepè ; not alwaies this ; but , oft : the other contracting it to the case or matter , when that which was shut vp , is opened by some experiment of things . Which metaphor of opening , he doth expound presentlie in other words , not adding another case , but expressing more the same which was before deliuered vnder the Metaphor of opening , & cognoscitur quod latebat , and ( by the same experiment of things ) that is knowne which was before vnknowne .

Secondlie it is to be noted , that S. Augustine doth vrge against these heretikes the definition of a generall Councell , wherein by the consent , as he speakes , of the whole world , the cc cc S. Aug. de Haeres . n. 69. controuersie was decided ; and the truth established , so , that now the men were heretikes who resisted the veritie ; though before the definition they were not ( for holding what they did in this matter of rebaptization ) guiltie of so great a crime . In this sort he doth excuse S. Cyprian ; and accuse , or charge the Donatists . S. August . de Hares . n. 69. They presume , saies he , to rebaptize Catholikes wherein they did further confirme , th● they were heretikes ; it hauing seeme● good to the vniuersall Church , not 〈◊〉 reuoake ( or as another lection hath it , not to repeate ) the common baptisme , euen in heretikes themselues . And dd dd S. Aug li. 1. cont . Donat. c. 7. the obscuritie of this question , ( of baptisme , disputed with the Donatists , ) hath in the former times of the Church before the schisme of Donatu● compelled great men and those endowe● with great charitie , Fathers , Bishop● so to contend amongst themselues , without breach of peace , and so to wauer , that the different decrees of Councels in their seuerall Countries did longe time shake , vntill that which was most wholesomely iudged , was , ( remotis dubitationibus , ) all doubts remoued , established by a plenarie or generall Councell of the whole world . Againe , ee ee Ibidem cap. 18. before the consent of the whole world had established by the decree of a generall Councell what was to be embraced of all in this matter , S. Cyprian with almost fourscore of his fellowe-Bishops of the Churches of Africk , thought that euerie one who was baptized out of the communion of the Catholike Church , was , when he came to the Church , to be baptized or christned againe . And againe , ff ff S. Aug. li. 2. cont. Donat. c. 9. Consuetudinis robore tenebatur orbis terrarum , & haec sola opponebatur , &c. Ibidem . as yet there had been no generall Councell assembled in that behalfe , but the world was held in by the strength of custome , and this custome onlie was opposed to those which endeuoured to bring in that noueltie ( of rebaptization ) because they could not apprehend the truth ; yet afterwards , whilst amongst many on both sides it is spoken of , and sought , it is not only sound out , but also brought to the authoritie and strength of a generall Councell , after Cyprians passion indeed , but afore wee were borne . And a litle after the words obiected . gg gg c. 4. Neither durst wee affirme any such thing if wee were not well grounded vpon the most consenting or agreeable authoritie of the vniuersall Church , vnto which vndoubtedlie he ( S. Cyprian ) would haue yeelded if as then , the truth of this question , being cleered and declared , had been established by a generall Councell . Hence it followes , first that he did acknowledge in generall Councells , authoritie to determine controuersies ; and this controuersie particularlie of rebaptization , ( which you hh hh Error de rebaptizatione hereticorum , qui certè fundamentalis ●o fu●● , no●dum erat in concilio plenario damnatus &c. Baro p. 348. confesse was not in a matter fundamentall ; ) and that , therein the truth was established by authoritie , ( not of scripture , this matter was not so resolued ; but ) of the world , in a Councell ; and so farre established , that all , were to beleeue it , and , remotis dubitationibus , without as much as doubting of it . Whence it comes secondlie , that to resist such a decree it is diabolicall , which word he doth vse vppon another occasion , and that such as maintaine the contrarie , are indeed , heretikes .

Thirdlie it is to be repeated ( which hath been said oft before ) that though wee maintaine the infallibilitie of sincere and approued generall Councells , in their decrees of faith , yet wee doe not beleeue that their infallibilitie is extended vnto all they write or speake , and in all kinde of matter ; as not equallizing their acts with bookes of Scripture ; and consequentlie , there may be something in such a Councell , sometime , that may need mending . Neither yet doe wee maintaine or beleeue , that all Councells which goe vnder the name of generall , haue infallibilitie in their decrees ; some haue , as those which are approued ; some haue not , and these later may need mending , euen in the decree they make touching faith . Moreouer , though the Councell that is plenarie and approued , cannot commaund a vice , or condemne vertue by decree , yet may it commaund that which after may proue inconuenient , or forbid what after may be admitted when circumstances are changed . And , if a lawe which at first was well made , ( the circumstances of time and persons being afterwards other then they were before and notablie changed , ) become inconuenient , ( and consequentlie not good in these circumstances , though good in it selfe , and in other circumstances , such as those were wherein it was first made , ) it may be changed , by power equall to that which made it . The Apostles , by decree , did forbid the eating of suffocata , things strangled ; yet afterwards , when the circumstances were charged and feare of scandall quite remoued , the Church began to doe the contrarie . To frequent the ceremonies of the lawe , now , it were a Sinne , peccaret mortalitersi quis nunc ceremonias obscruaret . S. Tho. 1.2 . q. 103. a. 4. though you knowe by what authoritie ( for the time ) they were commaunded . If you be sick , physick is good ; if you be well , the same is bad for you . The same thing , may be conuenient , and inconuenient , good and bad , in diuers circumstances . When the common-wealth is distempered , a lawe may be necessarie ; and at other times , not vsefull , yea inconuenient ; and therefore to be annulled . And the common-wealth in anulling of it , mends her Statute-booke , respectiuelie to these later circumstances ; though when she made it first she did not commit a fault .

Fourthlie it is to be noted that by the doctrine of S. Augustine before deliuered , there be some kinde of Councells which in their decrees of faith are not to be mended , nor to be doubted of ; that it is hereticall to oppose them ; and consequentlie , that they haue nor exteriour onlie , but interiour obedience also ( remotis dubitationibus ) due , to such , their decrees : which being manifest in him , you labour in vaine to be extend his words obiected , vnto all : which were to make him contradict , both the truth , and the Church of his time , and himselfe . He saith , and wee too , that some generall Councells may be mended , when by tryall or experiment that is opened which was shut vp , and knowne which before was vnknowne ; but some generall Councells cannot be mended ; no , nor questioned or doubted of , in their decrees touching faith . Now to your obiections in particular .

First you saie that he speakes of mending in matter of faith ; I answer that those words , in matter of faith , be your addition . He speakes indeed , of mending in such matters as by triall or experiment may be knowne , but , diuine verities which are the obiect of our faith , be not of this nature . Neither if there had been expressed in that clause , ( which is of generall Councels , ) matters of faith , were you able to conclude any thing against vs , for wee graunt that some which beare the name , may be mended in that , also . Of all wee cannot graunt it , without contradicting S. Augustine , and making him withall to contradict himselfe .

Secondlie you saie that his scope or intention was to distinguish the authoritie of Scripture from all other authoritie , wherefore since no generall Councell whatsoeuer , is Scripture , he meanes them all ; and will haue all subiect vnto mending . I answer , that he intended to satisfie three things obiected . 1. S. Cyprians sentence or example . 2. S. Cyprians writings . 3. S. Cyprians Councell . The comparison of Scripture , is with writings ; and it is a part of his answer to the Second point ; as I haue related it . And it is true , that this writing hath the prerogatiue aboue all writings , vide suprà , pag. 130. & pag. 106. marg. that nothing at all can be questioned , which it affirmes . To S. Cyprians Epistles , or any other mans , wee owe not that seruice or honour . Of Councels he speakes afterwards , in the third place ; and you knowe that , it is not essentiall to their decrees , to be written . There is also great difference , betwixt Councells and the Scripture , in infallibilitie , ( as hath been showne many times ; ) although the decrees in faith , ( of such as are approued ) are infallible . But if you will haue him aime at this , that all generall Councels whatsoeuer , may be mended , and in their decrees of faith , you make him , as before was obserued , to contradict himselfe . For , these are contradictorie ; some may not , as that of Nice ; and , all may . Moreouer by that saepè , it is manifest that his speach is not generall , as you would haue it ; saepè , is short of Semper . And the qualification which he doth vse , is another argument of the same .

Thirdlie you saie that vnles S. Augustine speake in the words principallie obiected , of amendment in matter of faith , he leaues vnanswered , the Donatists obiection . But neither will this make any thing to your purpose ; for , before he comes to speake of amending plenarie Councells , he hath fullie satisfied the three points of their argument , taken from S. Cyprians example ; from his writings , or Epistles ; and , from his Councell : his example should haue moued them rather to adhere vnto the Church ; his writings were not canonicall Scripture ; they might haue something in them liable to reprehension ; Suprà in marg. &c. in additionibus . and his Councell ; being onlie nationall , was to giue place to a generall . There staies their argument , whollie satisfied . The rest was added for a fuller illustration of the matter of Councells , wherevnto that occasion had led him . They be not all of one nature ; some kinde of mending or other , they be subiect to , sometimes ; though not all vnto the same . Wee doe not , of necessitie , so adhere vnto them all , as if nothing , in any , Saepè priora , à posterioribus emendantur . But I pray you what amendment had he seene in the Decrees of faith , of approued generall Councels ? shew me the saepè there . Name , out of him , the Councells ; and the decrees so mended . might be better then it is . The Ariminian was generall , but he would not maintaine it ; the second Ephesine was generall , yet the Councell of Chalcedon did anull it . Yea , suppose the decrees of faith be all right , and the Councell lawfull and approued , yet something otherwhiles may be mended ; as , when by some experiment of things that comes to light which before was vnknowne .

Moreouer , in that you saie the Donatists argument is not answered , vnles it be graunted , that any generall Councell whatsoeuer , may be mended in their decree , touching faith ; you seeme to call their heresie againe into dispute : for , that which S. Augustine so much vrgeth against them ( and it was the thing indeed which choked that Heresie , ) was the decree of a generall Councell . And it is strange you should imagine that he doth heere in the same booke disauow the same decree ; as if his answer to their weake obiection could not haue place , but by cutting the throate of his owne Argument , which they durst not looke vpon ; and , that his owne forces , of necessitie must be ruined and oppressed , with the fall of their cause .

Looke better on his words : and in them you shall finde that he resolued as wee do . He saith touching this Controuersie with the Donatists , that it was taken into consideration , and the (1) (1) Nec nos ipsitale aliquid auderemus asserere , nisi vniuersae Ecclesiae concordissima authoritate firmati : cui & ipse ( Cyprianus ) sine dubio cederet , si iam illo tempore quaestionis huius veritas eliquata & declarata per pleuarium Concilium solidaretur S Aug li. 2. de Bapt. c 3. truth declared , and (2) (2) Postea tamen dum inter multos ex vtraque parte tractatur & quaeritur , non solum inuenta est ( veritas , ) sed etiam ad plenarij Concilij authoritatem roburque perducta . c. 9. established , by the (3) (3) vt suprà num. 1. & 2. authoritie ( not by plaine Scripture , there was none ; but by the authoritie ) of the (4) (4) Si autem Concilium eius ( Cypriani ) attenditur , huic est vniuersae Ecclesiae posterius Concilium praeponendum . cap. 9. vt suprà . Totus Catholicus orbis amplexus est . li. 1. c. 18. vniuersall Church : and this authoritie not in the Laietie , or diffused ; but in (5) (5) suprà . plenario totius orbis Concilio c. 7. a Councell , wherein the (6) (6) Antequam plenarij Concilij sententia quid in hac resentiendum esset totius Ecclesiae consensio confirmasset . li. 1. c. 18. whole Church did in (7) (7) Ibid. a Decree , expresse her minde . So that ( although before , men perchance might (8) (8) Salua pace disceptare atque fluctuare , vt diu conciliorum in suis quibusque regionibus diuersa statuta nutauerint , donec . li. 1 c. 7. doubt or stagger in the matter , ) it was now to be beleeued (9) (9) Donec plenario totius orbis concilio , quod saluberrimè sentiebatur , etiam remotis dubitationibus firmaretur . Ibidem . remotis dubitationibus ; and (10) (10) nutauerint , donec . Ibid. Cui & ipse sine dubio cederet &c vt suprà . obedience to be giuen to the decree , ( whereof (11) (11) Ammedera dixit , Et hoc ego idem censeo Haereticos baptizandos esse . Huic respondetur ; Sed non hoc censet Ecclesia , cui Deus iam plenario etiam Concilio reuelauit ; quod tunc adhuc aliter quidem sapiebatis , sed quia in vobis charitas salua erat , in vnitate permanebatis . S. Aug li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. vide disput. p. 404. God had beene author , ) by all who would not expose themselues to be (12) (12) Scripturarum etiam in hac re à nobis tenetur veritas , cum hoc facimus quod vniuersae iam placuit Ecclesiae . li 1. cont . Crescon . c. 33. quisquis falli metuit eandem consulat &c. Ibidem . vt suprà . deceaued , and most perniciouslie striue against (13) (13) Quòd si non vis , non mihi aut cuiquam homini , qui vult ita suscipere , sed ipsi Saluatori contra salutem tuam perniciosissimè reluctatis , qui te sic susciptendum esse non vis credere quemadmodum suscipit illa Ecclesia quam testimonio suo commendat ille cui fateris nefarium esse non credere . De vnit Eccles. c 19. our Sauiour himself ; and confirme or assure themselues to be (14) (14) Audent etiam ( Donatistae ) rebaptizare Catholicos , vbi se ampliûs Haereticos esse firmarunt , cùm Ecclesiae Catholicae vniuersae placuerit nec in ipsis Haereticis baptisma rescindere . S. Aug. de Haeres num 69. expende verbum illud ( ampliùs ) quod indicat gradum , in eodem genere . Hereticks . This , I trow , doth import as much as wee teach of a Councells authoritie . And the grounds whereby S. Augustine could haue defended himself , at that time and in that case , be the same whereby wee now defend our selues in other causes of no lesse importance ; as , of the reall presence , propitiatorie Sacrifice , prayer for the dead ; and the like : the diuine assistance being not tied peculiarlie vnto that Age wherein S. Augustine liued .

Fourthlie you saie , those words & cognoscitur quod latebat , and that it knowne which was before vnknowne ; be meant in matter of faith , because matters of faith doe come to light after they haue been vnknowne . As if this were a peculiar thing in matters of faith , and not common to diuers other matters , euen those which by experiment may be knowne , to come to light after inquisition . there are many other verities which may so come to light , besides matters of faith , and therefore vnlesse you will argue from the genus to the species , affirmatiuelie , as thus ; it is aliuing creature , therefore it is a man ; which manner of discourse is absurd , you cannot out of those generall words , make it good or proue , that he meanes matter of faith ; not , if this part were disioyned from the former with a vel ; for , there were yet other things which might so come to light besides matters of faith ; all other verities are not manifested by triall and experiment , though some be : much lesse can you doe it ●f you consider that the later part and the former be coupled into the same sence , by the coniunctiue & . 〈◊〉 answer secondlie that , were mat●ers of faith expressed in that part , 〈◊〉 for of that part onlie which con●ernes plenarie Councells I speake , ) ●s it is manifest they be not ; still ●ou were short of your aime ; for , some kinde of generall Councells , such as are vnlawfull , or such as are lawfull but not approued , ( though you would neuer be able to proue so much out of this place ) might neede mending ; and yet , approued and confirmed Councels need none .

I knowe that some of yours doe sleight the distinction of confirmed and not confirmed Councels , as a thing not knowne to S. Augustine and other Auncients ; but they be mistaken much . If you looke into the tome of his Epistles you will see that kk kk S. Aug. Ep. 90. he , with many other Bishops , in a Councell , wrote vnto Pope Innocentius , to confirme their acts and decree made against those errours which Pelagius and Caelesti●● had auouched ; vt statutis nostrae mediocritatis etiam Apostolicae sedis adhibeatur authoritas ; that to the decree● of our mediocritie , the authoritie of the See Apostolike be added . And afterwards , error & impietas quae tam multos assertores habet & per diuersa dispersos , etiam Apostolicae sedis authoritate anathematizanda est . The errour and impietie ( of those men ) which hath so many abbetters , and those disperse● in diuers parts or places , is to be anathematized also by the authoritie of the See Apostolike . Wherevnto the Pope answers , ( and his Epistle is there ll ll Apud S Aug. Epist. 91. also ) first , commending them for requiring , as they ought to doe , the iudgment of the See Apostolike , scientes quid Apostolicae sedi debeatur ; Secondlie , confirming this obligation , the Fathers saith he non humana sed diuina decreuere sententia vt quicquid de disiunctis remotisque prouincijs ageretur , non prius ducerent finiendum nisi ad huius sedis notitiam perueniret , vbi tot a huius authoritate iusta que fuerit pronunciatio , firmaretur ; the fathers haue decreed by a sentence not humane but diuine , ( marke the words ) that whatsoeuer should be donne in dis●oyned and remote prouinces , they should not esteeme it to be ended , vnles it come first to the notice of this See , where the proposition or sentence which is iust should be established with the whole authoritie of this . Thirdlie , he declates , quisquis huic assentiens videtur esse sententiae ( speaking of the the Pelagian errour ) nimium se Catholicae fidei , & Dei beneficijs profitetur ingratum , who soeuer seemes to consent into this opinion , doth professe himselfe an enemie to the Catholike faith , and ingratefull to gods benefits . And in fine , he cuts the faction of , from communion , separetur ergo &c.

Neither doth S. Augustine omit to giue notice of this answer , for in the 106. Epistle , hauing signified the sending of the acts of the foresaid Councell , and of another also , against the same errours ; together with letters to the same purpose , to Pope Innocentius ; he saith , mm mm S. Aug. Epist. 106. vide eundem Epist. 104. item serm. 2. de verbis Apostoli & li. 2. cont. duas Epist. Pelag. c. 3. ad omnia nobis ille rescripsit , eodem modo quo fas erat , atque oportebat , Apostolicae sedis antistitem . He wrote vs an answer to all things in such manner as a Bishop of the see Apostolike lawfullie might before god , and ought to doe . Adding also els-where , that by those letters , dubitatio tota sublata est , al● doubt in that matter was taken away . I omit to put you further in minde that the Councell of nn nn Relat. Conc. Chalc. ad Leonem Papam . Chalcedon asked of Leo the great , as their Head and Father , confirmation of their decrees ; which he also gaue , though oo oo Leo Papa Epist. 55. ad Pulch. Aug. not in all they desired , and thereby did manifest the fullnes of his authoritie . It were easie to bring many examples in this kind , were I professedlie to treat of it , but keeping my self ( as I haue donne hetherto ) to those authors you obiect , it sufficeth to satisfie by S. Augustines authoritie the difficulties which you bring out of S. Augustine . The necessitie of the Popes approbation you finde elswhere , Disput. li. 4. c. 4. and it is a thing so manifest by the Scripture ( Matth. 16. & Ioan. 21. ) that he , in his Predecessor S. Peeter , is peculiarlie designed as Chiefe of those Pastors on whom the Church is to relie for the knowledg and meaning of Gods word , according to the Apostles doctrine , Ephes. 4. Ephes. 2.20 . Epist. Iudae . v. 20 ( which Pastors are therefore assisted accordinglie , to support the faithfull built vppon them , ) that all other interpretation which would exclude it , is violent vnto the text ; and , Disput. li. 4. c. 1. & 2. inasmuch as it labours to remoue the foundation which our Sauiour laide , doth indeuour ( though vainelie , for it is more then Hell can do , ) to ruine the whole Church .

The pretence of plaine Scripture , or of manifest reason ( such as an vnderstanding man considering , cannot but assent vnto , ) against the consent of all the Pastors in a Councell , is openly insufficient , because it doth suppose ( and without , yea against all reason ) that they , ( the Pastors ) with all their Exercise in Diuinitie and diligent inquisition , looking into and considering the words of Scripture , comparing texts together , examining the traditions of the Church , perusing former Councels , with the writings of the Fathers , and other monuments of antiquitie ; and assisted by the Holie Ghost their interiour Master ; be not as able ( as their aduersaries ) to conceaue plaine Scripture , Innumerabiles sunt qui se videntes non solùm ●actant , sed à Christo illuminatos videri volunt . sunt autem Haeretici . S. Augu. in Ioan. tract. 45. and reason so manifest : or , that conceauing and vnderstanding it , they should be , all , so malicious , ( and our Sauiour so vnmindfull of his promise ) as to propose vnto the world and oblige it to beleeue as our Sauiours words , the contrarie . But it is familiar in such Opponents as want them selues that Authoritie which the Sonne of God hath established to keepe vs from Errour , to pretend euident Scripture and manifest pp pp Illi , qui cum in vnitate atque communione catholica non sint Christiano tamen nomine gloriantur , coguntur aduersari credentibus , & audent imperitos quasi ratione traducere , quando maximé cum ista medicina Dominus venerit vt fidem populis imperaret . Sed hoc facere coguntur quia iacere se abiectissimè sentiunt si eorum authoritas cum authoritate catholica conferatur . Conantur ergo authoritatem stabilissimam fundatissimae Ecclesiae quasi rationis nomine & pollicitatione superare . Omnium enim Haereticorum quasi regularis est ista temeritas . Sed ille fidei imperator clementissimus , & per conuentus celeberrimos populorum atque gentium , sedesque ipsas Apostolorum , arce authoritatis muniuit Ecclesiam , & per pauciores piè doctos & verè spirituales viros copiosissimis apparatibus etiam inuictissimae rationis armauit . S. Aug. Epist. ad Diosc . 56. reason against the Church , to the end they may seeme to bring something greater for to oppresse or ouercome her authoritie , as S. Augustine well obserued long agoe . And by the like stratagem did the pagans heeretefore striue to withdraw men whollie from the Creede , by shewing the contrarie so cleerelie that no doubt , as they pretended , could be made of it ; which was a way they thought , to get qq qq In Catholica me tenet consensio populorum atque gentium &c. apud vos autem vbi nihil horum est quod me inuitet ac teneat , sola personat veritatis pollicitatio , quae quidem si tam manifesta monstratur vt in dubium venire non possit , praeponenda est omnibus illis rebus quibus in catholica teneor . Si autem tantummodo promittitur & non exhibetur , nemo me mouebit ab ea fide quae animum meum tot & tantis nexibus Christianae religionis astringit . S. Aug. contra Epist. Manich. Fundam c. 4. Promitteba● scientiam veritatis , & nunc quod nescio cogis vt credam . c. 5. Multò iustiùs & cautiùs facio si catholicis quoniam semel credidi , ad te non transeo , nisi me , non credere iusteris , sed manifestissimè ac apertissimè scire aliquid feceris . Quocirca si mihi rationem redditùrus es , dimitte Euangelium . Si ad Euangelium me tenes , ego ad eos me teneam quibus praecipientibus Euangelio credidi , & his iubentibus tibi omnino non ctedam . Quod si fortè in Euangelio aliquod apertissimum de Manichaei apostolatu inuenire potueris , infirmabis mihi catholicorum authoritatem qui iubent mihi vt tibi non credam . Qua infirmata , iam nec Euangelio credere potero &c. Sed absit vt ego Euangelio non credam . Ibidem . schollers , but it proued a meere bragge .

§. X.

1. Optatus cited his Aduersaries , who refused to submitte them selues to the Church , to be tryed by the Testament , admitted by themselues . But the cause it self , was , in the iudgment of the whole Catholike world , to be decided in a Councell : and was , in fine , so determined .

2. For finding out the truth , in matter of faith , recourse is to be made to the fountaine .

VOs dicitis licet ; nos , non licet . inter licet vestrum & non licet nostrum nutant & remigant animi populorum Nemo vobis credat , nemo nobis : omnes contentiosi homines sumus . ( Esto . ) Quaerendi sunt iudices , si Christiani , de vtraque parte dari non possunt , quia studijs veritas impeditur . Deforis quaerendus est Iudex : si paganus , non potest nosse Christiana secreta ; si Iudaeus inimicus est Christiani baptismatis . Ergo in terri● nullum de hac re reperiri po●erit iudictum , de caelo quaerendus est Iudex . Sed vt quid palsamus ad caelum cum habeamus hic in Euangelio testamentum . Baro p. 328. ex Optato .

1. HAuing answered what was obiected out of S. Augugustine ; he , will vndertake , for vs , to satisfie that you bring from Optatus . and where he lookes about for a Iudge to decide the controuersie moued by the Donatists , this great Doctour doth answer , yea the a a S. A●g . contra Donati●tas passim . Specialiter vide li. 2. de Bapt c. 7 li 5. c. 23. & li. 1. co●t . Cresc . c. 31. & 32 whole Catholike world did agree , that the matter was to be defined in Councell ; and that , not by cleere scripture ; there was none ; but by tradition . By the testament ; yes . not the written , but , the nuncupatiue . By the holie Ghost , c c S Aug suprà inter citat . ex Ock lit. 1. a iudge from heauen ; but , speaking ( b ) in a Councell . The whole world did iudge , that this verie Controuersie whereof Optatus speakes , was to be determined so ; and accordinglie it was so determined and ended .

Neither doth Optatus denie , that which all Catholikes when Saint Augustine wrote , graunted , ( and he himselfe yeelded as much of the c c Serpit corum sermo v●lut cancer . dixit hoc de haereticis quorum caeperat esse illis temporibus vitiosa doctrina , &c. Dictum est hoc & de Arrio , cuius doctrina nisi Nicaeno Concilio à 318. Episcopis dissiparetur , pectora multorum sicut cancer intrauerat . Optat. Milleu . li. 4. Nicene Councell , of whose authoritie wee shall presentlie heare more from S. Anathasius who was in it , ) that the Church , which hath promise of assistance , or the Pastors , all assembled in a Councell , those whom the holie Ghost hath placed to gouerne , and our Sauiour hath giuen to keepe vs from being borne about with euerie winde of doctrine , haue power to determine a controuersie in Religion : But , the Donatists excepting against the Catholikes , as parties in the cause , he betakes himselfe to scripture ; against which ( being admitted on both sides ) that pretended exception , had no place . children that contend about a Legacie , both admit their father testament ; and , if there , his words decide the controuersie ; they rest : and so , he pleades , the Donatists must do when the words of our Sauiours will or testament be showed ; vnles they proceede ( as they had denied Church-authoritie , so ) to denie that , and him . So on he goes to shewe the thing , inscripture . But what if the words of the testament be obscure ? The matter then requires a Iudge ; and this Iudge must haue authoritie , and assistance ; if the case be , as this was , about diuine faith : which assistance , none hath , but by vertue of our Sauiours promise ; and his promise was made to none but to the Church ; not to Pagans , nor heretikes ; but , to the Church : wherefore , the Church is to iudge . Yet further : what if the words of the testament haue it not at all ? the question was , Whether one baptized by an heretike was to be baptized againe when he came into the Church . The answer to which Question , you doe not finde in scripture ; the d d Qui lotus est &c. place which Optatus brings doth not mention such as were baptized by heretikes . There is not in all scripture Saint Augustine saies , an e e Quamuia huius rei certè de scripturis canonicis non proferatur exemplum &c. S. Aug. li. cont. Cresc . c. 33 vt suprà . Apostoli nihil quidem exinde praeceperunt , sed consuetudo illa quae opponebatur Cypriano , ab eorum traditione exordium sumpsisse credenda est ; sicut sunt multa quae vniuersa tenet Ecclesia , & ob hoc ab Apostolis praecepta benè creduntur , quanquam scripta non reperian tur . li. 5. de bapt. c. 23. Cùm in Scripturis non inueniamus aliquos &c. De vnitate Ecclesiae c. 19. example of it . Shall the matter then rest ; and the Donatists , against the custome and practize of the Church , obtaine the cause ? There is yet a remedie ; and this is , to call a Councell , from all parts of the world ; and there , by the promised assistance , to decide it . Which was done accordinglie , and in the heart of the Church symbolicall , the booke wherein Christian Religion is written by the spirit of the liuing God , it was found , and brought to light ; and proposed . And to this iudgment , all Catholikes afterward did subscribe , and S. Cyprian also who in his time thought the other more probable , would , if wee beleeue Saint Augustine , most willinglie haue donne ; and such as would not ( hauing notice of it ) were , and are , accounted Heretikes .

2. Hence ( that I note this by the way ) wee take an Argument against you to proue by the iudgment of Antiquitie , two things . 1. that the Church can propose and oblige vs to beleeue that which she hath receaued onlie by word of mouth . 2. that our Sauiour did not limit his promised Assistance , to fundamentalls onlie . Not onlie to fundamentals , nor onlie to the written word . Wee haue , I saie , in these two things , the iudgment of the Church which was in , and before Saint Augustines daies , against you . They did inquire , diligentlie , what had beene taught formerlie , what tradition had been left in the Church by those who first planted Religion in it ; they made recourse to the fountaine . Which kind of proceeding for the resolution of difficulties , had beene commended to them from the f f Quid enim & si de aliqua modica quaestione disceptatio esset , nonne oporteret in antiquissimas recurrere Ecclesias , in quibus Apostoli conuersati sunt , & ab ijs de praesenti quaestione sumere quod certum & reliquidum est ? Quid autem si neque Apostoli quidem Scripturas reliquissent nobis , nonne oportebat ordinem sequi Traditionis , quam tradiderunt ijs quibus committebant Ecclesias , cu●●ordinationi assentiunt multae gentes Barbarorum , eorum qui in Christum credunt sinc charactere vel atramento scriptam habentes per Spiritum in cordibus suis salutem , & veterem traditionem diligenter custodientes &c. S. Irenaeus adu . Haeres . li 3. c 4. cuius capitis initio Non oportet , inquit , adhuc quaerere apud alios veritatem , cùm Apostoli quasi in depositorium diues , plenissimè in ea ( Ecclesia ) contulerint omnia quae sint veritatis , vti omnis quicunque velit , sumat ex ea potum vitae . Et Optatus in hanc sententiam Nam & fontem , inquit , constat vnam esse de dotibus , vnde Haeretici non possunt vel ipsi bibere , vel alios potare . ita li. 2. Caeterùm lege in Irenaeo c. 3. li. 3. vbi de traditione praeclarè disserit . In compendio est apud religiosas & simplices mentes , & errorem deponere , & inuenire atque cruere veritatem . Nam si ad diuinae Traditionis caput & originem reuertamur , cessat error humanus ; & sacramentorum coelestium ratione perspecta , quicquid sub caligine ac nube tenebrarum obscurum latebat , in lucem veritatis aperitur . Si canalis aquam ducens qui copiosè priùs & largiter profluebat , subitò deficiat , nonne ad fontem pergitur , vt illic defectionis ratio noscatur , vtrumne arescentibus venis in capite vnda siccauerit ; ( siccata sit ; ) an verò integra inde & plena procurrens , in medio itinere destiterit : vt si vitio interrupti aut bibuli canalis effectum est , quo minus aqua continua perseueranter ac iugiter flueret , refecto & confirmato canali ad vsum atque potum ciuitatis aqua collecta eadem vbertate atque integritate representetur , qua de fonte proficiscitur . Quod & nunc facere oportet Dei Sacerdotes praecepta diuina seruantes , vt si aliquo nutauerit & vacillauerit veritas , ad originem Dominicam & Euangelicam , & Apostolicam Traditionem reuertamur ; & inde surgat actus nostri ratio , vnde & ordo & origo surrexit . S. Cyprianus Epist. 74 ad Pompeium . De qua ep. vide S. Aug li. 5. contra Donat. c. 23 & 25. Vide etiam de modo veritatem inuestigandi , Tertullianum , lib. de Praescript . c. 19. 20. 21. &c. beginning ; and was in after-ages still approued , as appeares by the * * See the Tomes of Councels practice of the Church vpon all occasions of importance .

§. XI .

Saint Athanasius esteemed it a vaine thing for those who would not stand vnto the Nicene decree , to call for Councels . He did esteeme the decree of it , infallible . Of diuers infallible Authorities , one may he more powerfull and commaunding then another .

FRustra igitur circumcursitantes praetexerunt ob fidem se Synodos postulare , cum sit diuina Scriptura omnibus potentior . Quod si ad hanc rem vsus Synodi desideratur , supersunt acta patrum : nam neque in hac parte negligentes fuere qui Niceae conuenerunt , sed ita accuratè scripserunt vt qui sinceriter eorum scripta legat , facilè reminiscatur eius in Christum religionis quae à sacris literis annunciatur . Baro. p. 327. ex Athanasio .

S. ATHANASIVS was at the Councell of Nice , where the Arian heresie was anathematized , and the Catholike faith established ; yet he is also brought against the authoritie of all generall Councells ; first because he tels the Arians , ( who would not stand to the iudgment of that Councell which was oecumenicall , and yet cried out for Councells , ) that in vaine they runne about the world pretending they required Councells for the faith , whereas the diuine scripture is more powerfull then all . Secondlie because he saith that , who so reades the writings or acts of the Nicene fathers , they will easilie call to minde that Religion which is showed in holie scripture .

I am not yet so learned as to conceaue how , the infallibilitie of Councels is any waie contradicted in these words ; so farre I am from thinking that this great Saint did forget himselfe , and vndoe what with others he before had donne . The decree of the Nicene Councell , together with the Acts , did so bring to minde the faith commended in the scripture , that withall it had force , he saith , enough to a a Quis vsus quaeso Conciliorum , quum Nicaenum Concilium aduersus Arianam caeterasque haereses satis valeat ? S. Athanas . de Synodis . Indecens & nefarium aliquid ex rectè & iustè decretis , & ex rebus Niceae publicè cum illustrissimo principe Constantino patre tuo per accuratam deliberationem constitutis immutare velle , &c. per quam ( Synodum ) non illa sola , sed & reliquae haereses sublatae sunt , in qua certè & addere aliquid temerarium est , & auferre periculosum . Ibidem epist. Synod , ad Constantium . August . ●ufficiunt ea quae Niceae confessa fuere , satisque per se vi●um habent , tum ad subuersionem impij dogmatis , tum ad ●telam vtilitatemque Ecclesiasticae doctrinae . Idem in E●st . ad Episc. Africae . ouerthrowe the contrarie , and to put the matter b b Ego arbitrabar omnium quotquot vnquam fuere haereticorum inanem garrulitatem Nicaeno Concilio sedatam esse . nam fides quae inibi a Patribus secundum sacras Scripturas tradita , & confessionibus confirmata est , satis mihi idonea , efficax que videbatur ad omnem impietatem euertendam , & pietatem eius quae in Christo est fidei constituendam Atque ideo diuersis Concilijs per Galliam & Hispanias , & Romae celebratis , omnes qui in eo conuentu fuere , istos luci fugas qui sese etiamnum occultant & quae Arrij sunt sapiunt , comm● calculo vnius Spiritus incitatu anathemate percusserunt , e● quod isti sibi nomina vendicauerint Synodorum &c. 〈◊〉 Athanas . Epist. ad Epictet . Qua igitur audacia fit vt post tanti Concilij authoritatem disceptationes aut quaestiones inf●tuant ? Ibidem . out 〈◊〉 question ; and so farre , that , who 〈◊〉 did oppose themselues , were c c Ego autem demiratus sum tuam pietatem haec sustinuisse , quod non simul & istos compescuerit , & piam●dem ( in Concilio Nicaeno traditam vt suprà ) illis propos●erit , vt ijs auditis vel in quietem se darent , vel si inquieti intradicerent haeretici homines iudicarentur . Ibidem . ●ereticks . It was a vaine thing so he steemed it , in the Arians by other Councells , to seek to reuerse what was ●●ere established ; the definition of ●●e holie Ghost , there made , the word ●f God , by that Councell , remaines fo●uer ; d d Vanus eorum labor qui contra illud ( Nicenum ) ali● subinde concilia moliuntur , quippe qui plusquam decem synodos iam instituerint , in singulis semper aliquid innouantes &c. ignari interim omnem plantationem qua● non plantauerit pater caelestis cradicandam esse : verb●● autem illud Domini per oecumenicam Niceae Synodum in aternum manet . S Athanas . Epist. ad Episc. Africae . verbum illud Domini per ●licaenum Concilium manet in aeter●um .

As for the comparison which he ●akes , with scripture ; it e e Catholici Scripturam Sacram non subijciunt sed anteponunt Concilijs : neque in hoc vlla controuersia es● Bellarm. li. 2. de Concilijs c. 12. Quod si interdum aliq● Catholici dicunt Scripturam pendere ab Ecclesia siue 〈◊〉 Concilio , non intelligunt quoad authoritatem & secundum se , sed quoad explicationem & quoad nos . Ibidem . hurteth ●ot . He that saith , the scripture where it is plaine and vniuersallie ●eceaued , is more powerfull then a Councell ; or that , the eternall ve●tie openlie reuealed , as it is to Saints , 〈◊〉 more powerfull then scripture ; ●oth not preiudice infallibilitie . Both ●ay haue it , and yet one be more ●owerfull . And this supposed , visit ●hat both scripture and the Coun●ell , be infallible ; but the power of cripture more ; the discourse of S. Athanasius is conuincing . He tha● will not submit his iudgment to tha● authoritie which is most powerfull ▪ doth in vaine pretend he will be ruled by the lesse ; he doth easilie contemne a Councell , who contemne● the Scripture , proposed by the vniuersall Church ; as the Arians did , who contradicted open Scripture , and all Antiquitie .

Neither doth this make any thing against the decision of controuersies , by Councells ; for , though the waie of Councells be a certaine waie to determine what wee must beleeue , yet may there be another way to finde it out ; and that certaine too . And doubtles , he that seeth in scripture that , which he knowes the whole symbolicall Church ( that which holds out the booke wherein ●he reades it , ) doth beleeue , is more powerfullie moued to giue assent , then he that heares a Councell on●ie . And our assent is more proue when the Prophets and Apostles all , propose the same , then when one alone doth auouch it ; though one Prophet or Apostle by himselfe be sufficient and infallible .

§. XII .

Vincentius Lirinensis will haue Church-authoritie relied vpon in matter of faith , as certaine and vndoubted . How a man is to carrie himself , when matter of faith is questioned . The way to finde the Catholike sence . Generall Councels , infallible in their decrees ; and those are Hereticks that contradict and oppose them .

SAepe magno studio & summa attentione perquirens à quaplurimis sanctitate & doctrina praestantibus viris quonam modo possim certa quadam & quasi generali ac regulari vi● Catholicae fidei veritatem ab haereticae prauitatis falsitate disc●nere ; huiusmodi semper responsum ab omnibus ferèretuli . Quo● siue ego siue quis alius vellet exurgentium hereticorum fra●des deprehendere laqueosque vitare & in fide sanus atque integer permanere , duplici modo munire fidem suam Domino adiouante deberet ; Primò scilicet , diuinae legis authoritate : tu● deinde Ecclesiae Catholicae traditione . Baro p. 349. ex vincent Lycin c. 1.

VINCENTIVS LIRINENSIS ▪ The argument taken from this Father is , that in his golden treatise entitled Aduersus prophanas haereseô● nouationes , he hath omitted to specifie generall Councells and their decrees , and diuers leaues are spent t● proue that he did not giue vnto them any place in the direction of our beleefe . But no paines will serue . H● doth more then once or twice mention them , and hath testified wha● he thought of their authoritie . Two generall a a Vicent . Lyrin . c. 1. waies there are to distinguish the truth from errour in mat●er of Religion ; the one by Scripture , ●he other by Tradition : but the scripture is profound and obscure , whe●evpon it hath come to passe that diuers heretikes haue interpreted it ●iuers waies ; so that , to knowe the ●ight meaning of it , it is necessarie ●o recurre to tradition ; and , ( as he ●aith in the second chapter of his booke ) b b Idem c. 2. vide Disp. li. 5. c 1. & li. 4. c. 8. pag. 405. & pag. 395 fine , that the line of the propheticall and Apostolicall interpretation be directed according to the rule of the Ecclesiasticall and Catholike sence . Which Catholik sence , may be found three waies chieflie , according as he conceaues it ; one is to see if it be held by the symbolicall or vniuersall Church ; a second is , to see if it be held by the Fathers , each writing in his owne time ; a third , to see whether it be defined in any generall Councell . By these three waies principallie , a man is directed to the Catholik or true sence of scripture : and all three are not necessarie , but any of the three will serue the turne . c c V●i●nt . c. ● . In the Catholik Church , saith he , wee must haue a great care wee hold that which hath bene beleeued euery where ; that which hath been beleeued euer ; that which hath been beleeued by all , for this is truelie and properlie Catholick as the power of the name and the definition doth declare , which truelie doth comprehend all vniuersallie . And this is donne in fine if we follow vniuersalitie , antiquitie , consent . Vniuersalitie wee shall follow thus ; if wee confesse that one faith to be true which the whole Church thorough the world doth acknowledg : And antiquitie thus ; if wee doe not in any sort goe back from those sences which it is manifest that our holie Auncestors and Fathers haue celebrated and commended : and Censent likewise , if wee followe the definitions and decrees of all , or neere all , the priests and masters in Antiquitie . And d d Quid igitur faciet Christianus Catholicus , si se aliqua Ecclesiae particula ab vniuersalis fidei communione praeciderit ? quid vtique , nisi vt pestisero corruptoque membro sanitatem vniuersi corporis anteponats quod si nouella aliqua contagia non iam portiunculam tantum sed totam pariter Ecclesiam commaculare conetur ? ( locum hunc corruperunt Wittaker & Vitus , haeretici , ) tunc item prouidebit vt antiquitati inhaereat ; quae prorsus iam non potest vlla nouitatis fraude seduci . Quid si in ipsa vetustate duorum aut trium hominum vel certè ciuitatis vnius aut etiam prouinciae alicuius error deprehendatur ? Tunc omnino curabit vt paucorum temeritati , vel inscitiae , fi qua sunt vniuersaliter antiquitus vniuersalis Ecclesiae decreta praeponat . Quid si tale aliquid emergat vbi nihil huiusmodi reperiatur ? Tuuc operam dabit vt collatas inter se Maiorum consulat interroge●que sententias ; eorum duntaxat qui diuersis licet temporibus & locis , in vnius tamen Ecclesiae Catholica communione & fide permanentes , magistri probabiles extiterunt : & quicquid non vnus aut duo tantum sed omnes pariter vno eodemque cōsen●● , apertè , frequenter , perseueranter , tenuisse , scripsisse , docuisse cognouerit , id sibi quoque intelligat absque vlla dubitatione credendum . Vinc . Lyrin c. 4. more he hath to the same purpose .

He liued in the yeare 440. and before he wrote this booke , there had been three generall Councells ; whose decrees , though not made , the * * Nicenum anno 325. first of them , much more then a hundred yeeres before him , he ●umbers amongst the records of an●iquitie which are to be looked into . And in like manner , the decrees ma●e 200. 500. 1000. yeares before vs , ●ake place and order in the records ●f antiquitie , respectiuelie to our times : the distance of precedence ●eing more , then was the distance of any Councell precedent , respectiuelie vnto him .

You are further to obserue , that , ●o the vniuersalitie of a truth he doth not require , that it be distinctlie beleeued of all that professe Christian religion ; some haue professed it who beleeued not the blessed Trinitie , others denied the Incarnation ; the greatest mysteries were not Catholick in this sense , neither doth ●he require that a point or veritie which is Catholik , be such that it hath been expreslie and distinctlie beleeued of all Catholiks at all times ; the Catholick Epistles in this sence e e Vide Disp. pag. 431. An excellent lesson for these times . were not all , Catholick : but his meaning is , ( as I insinuated before , ) that a sence or veritie appertaining to faith , which is beleeued by the Symbolicall , that is by the vniuersall catholike Church , either allwaies , or at any time , ( for it can neuer erre in diuine faith ; ) or , which the Fathers haue vniformelie in their times and ages taught , and professed ; or , which hath beene defined by all , or neere all the Pastors , ( those which are to teach , ) in a generall councell ; is to be receaued as a Catholick sense .

Twice , in that little booke , herepeates againe this matter of finding out the Catholik sense by antiquitie consenting , either in Councell , or out of Councell ; and , by vniuersalitie ; and in both places the definition of generall Councells , and their authoritie comes in . As , in the 38. chapter , where giuing direction how to auoid hereticks , who like the Deuil vrge Scriptures against the truth , in this case , saith he , Catholikes shall take greate care that they interprete the diuine canon according to the traditions of the vniuersall Church , and according to the rules of the Catholike doctrine or decree ; wherein likewise it is necessarie that they follow the vniuersalitie , antiquitie , and consent of the Catholick Church . And if at any time a part doth rebell against the whole , noueltie against antiquitie , or the disagreement of one or some fewe erring persons against the consent of all , or at least of farre more Catholikes ; let them preferre the integritie of the whole , before the corruption of the part . And in the same whole , the religion of antiquitie before the prophanesse of noueltie : as also in antiquitie it selfe , let them preferre before the rashnes of a verie fewe , f f primum omnium generalia , si qua sunt , vniuersalis concilij decreta praeponant ; tunc deinde , si id minus est , sequantur quod proximum est , multorum atque magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum . Vincent . Lirin . c 38. first of all if any be , the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell : then after , if that be not , let them followe that which is next , ( to wit ) the sentences or opinions of many and great masters consenting amonge themselues .

In the next chapter , he tells what Fathers those must be , whose opinions wee take ; they must be g g Idem c. 39. orthodoxe , such as liuing piouslie in the Catholike faith and communion , and remaining constant , haue died in Christ ; or happilie bene put to death for him : and those he saith are so to be beleeued , that what soeuer either all , or the greater part , haue established or confirmed , receauing , holding , or deliuering , with one and the same meaning , manifestlie , oft , constantlie , as it were in a certaine councell of masters agreeing among themselues , the same is to be esteemed certaine and vndoubted . And againe in the h h Idem c. 40. next , Hos , in Ecclesia Dei diuinitus per tempora & loca dispensatos , quisquis in sensu Catholici dogmatis vnum aliquid in Christo sentientes contempserit , non hominem contemnit sed Deum . He that contemnes these ( fathers ) diuinelie distributed , according to times and places , in the Church of God ; agreeing in Christ in the sence of a Catholick point of doctrine , he contemneth not man , but God . So greate hee esteemeth this authoritie of the fathers and masters , which God hath dispensed , not at one , but in seuerall times ; and yet , the generall decrees of an oecumenicall Councell , with him , haue i i c. 38. vt suprà . the precedence ; primum omnium generalia , si qua sint , vniuersalis Concilij decreta praeponant ; tunc deinde , si id minus est , sequantur quod proximum est , multorum at que magnorum consentientes sibi sententias magistrorum .

Againe in the 41. chapter he repeates a second time the same matter , of finding out the Catholike sence by antiquitie , consenting , in Councell or out of Councell : where he speakes yet more home . k k Diximus in ipsa Ecclesiae vetusta●e duo quae●am vehementer studioseque obseruanda , quibus penitus inhaerere deberent , quicunque haeretici esse nolunt . Primum si qu●d antiquitus abomnibus Ecclesiae Catholicae Sacerdotibus vniuersalis Concilij authoritate decretum : Deinde si qua noua &c. c. 41. Exemplum adhibuimus Sancti Concili● quod antè trienmum fermè in Asia apud Ephesum celebratum est &c. Vniuersis Sacerdotibus , qui illò ducenti feré conuenerant &c. omnes verò Catholicos sacerdotes fuisse &c. c. 42. Wee haue said that in the antiquitie of the Church two things are greatlie and with greate diligence to be obserued ; ( quibus ) wherevnto , all those must adhere steedfastlie , that will not be hereticks : ( why do you start ? ) first of all , if any thing should be auncientlie defined with the authoritie of an oecumenicall Councell , by all the Priests of the Catholick Church : and next , if any new question should arise wherein that were not found , recourse to be made to the opinions or sentences of holie Fathers , those onelie who euerie one in their owne time and place were found to be approued masters , continuing still in the vnitie of communion and faith : and what soeuer they be found to haue held with one and the same meaning and consent , that without all scruple should be iudged the true and Catholike ( doctrine ) of the Church . Here besides the faith and profession of the Church symbolicall or vniuersall , be two other rules , wherevnto all , that will not be flat heretiks , must of necessitie conforme themselues ; the decrees of oecumenicall Councells , and , the vniforme consent of Fathers . I leaue you now , to compare your condition , with his opinion . What he deliuers in this matter , is not his doctrine alone . c. 1.

That you conceaue him the better , he presentlie brings , for instance or example , the proceedings of the Councell of Ephesus ( held l l c. 42. three yeares , no more , before he wrote this booke , ) wherein Nestorius was condemned ; the anathematismes of the Councell you may see when you please . It is worth the noting by the way , for it is your practise too , and indeed , of all hereticks , that Nestorius , as he relates in the end of the chapter , renounced the authoritie of the Church in deciding controuersies , affirming m m c. 43. totam etiam nunc errare , & semper errasse Ecclesiam , that the whole Church euen now , ( in the time of the Councell ) doth erre , and alwaies hath erred . In the last chapter of all , he brings in the authoritie of the See Apostolike and in fine , concludes his booke , If neither Apostolicall definitions , nor Ecclesiasticall decrees , whereby according to the sacred consent of vniuersalitie and antiquitie , all Heretikes euer , and in fine Pelagius , Caelestius , Nestorius , haue been deseruedlie condemned , be to be violated , it is necessarie verilie that all Catholikes hereafter , which haue a care to shewe themselues lawfull children of the mother-Church , be associated and close ioyned vnto the faith of the holie Fathers , and , so insist , that they die , in it : and that they detest , abhorre , speake against , persecute , the prophane nouelties of prophane men .

§. XIII . Exceptions against a text , or two , refuted .

THE last Opposition which you make , is against two of the places of Scripture , which our Deuines bring to confirme the Councels infallibilitie . These also , least you conceaue there is difficultie , I will consider as farre as your Opposition goes , ( though otherwise not meddling with the Question de Iure , which you finde in our Deuines discussed at large , ) and then make an end . The one of these places containes our Sauiours promise of the Holie Ghosts assistance , made vnto the Church ; The Spirit of Truth when he comes , shall teach you all truth . Ioan. 14. & 16. The other of the places represents vnto vs the interpretation of the forsaid promise , as it was vnderstood by the Apostles , who relying on it , met in Councell and there defined a Controuersie ; It hath seemed good to the Holie Ghost , and to vs . Acts 15.

Against the former place , you saie , first that it is meant of the Apostles onlie . This is false : for it is , foreuer ; I will aske my father , and he will giue you another comforter , that he remaine with you for euer , the Spirit of truth . And , apud vos manebit , he shall remaine with you , Io. 14. the Catholike Church is his mysticall bodie , which cannot subsist without his Spirit ; and , for confirmation and illustration of her faith , not onelie in the Apostles time when our Sauiour was gone , but euer since , after they be gonne , she needs assistance of the Spirit . Neither was it his minde to leaue the faithfull without such comfort , non relinquam vos orphanos , Ioh. 14. I will not leaue you orphans . O father , establish , confirme , sanctifie them , in the truth . I aske not for them onlie , Ioh. 17. ( the Apostles ) but for the Church , for those which by their word shall beleeue in me . That , by thy prouidence , for my sake , in our Spirit , all be , as it were , one ; and agree ( to their proportion ) as wee doe ; who doe iudge , and approue , still , the same .

But tell me ; hath the Spirit left the Church , or is he still in it ? if he hath left it , how hath she supernaturall operations ? how doth she beleeue the diuine word ? how doth she subsist ? as the Gospell saith she shall , notwithstanding all the endeuours of hell it selfe . Mat. 16. If he doth remaine in it , it is then true that the promise holds still , euen that , which was made vnto the Church , in the Apostles time , and began first to be fulfilled in them .

The greatest promises in all the Scripture be two ; one of God the Father , to send his sonne to redeeme the world ; the other of God the Sonne , to send the holie Ghost , his spirit , to teach and instruct his Church : if you doe not beleeue the later is performed , you will giue vs cause to thinke that you would euacuate the former too , and not trust God , at all , in his promise ; nor in his couenant neither ; ( though so farre you trust one another . Ierem. 35. Ezech. 37. ) I will giue my lawe in their bowels , and in their hart I will write it , and I will be their God , and they shall be my people . My Spirit that is in thee , and my words that I haue put in thy mouth , Isa. 59. shall not depart out of thy mouth , and out of the mouth of thy seed , and out of the mouth of the seed of thy seed saith our Lord , from this present , and foreuer . See the Disp. li. 3.

Secondlie you saie , that it is not to be vnderstood of all the dogmaticall points , or doctrine , by our Sauiour reuealed , and deliuered vnto the Church ; but of some points onlie ; ●hose which are expressed in the Apostles Creed ; and not necessarilie of all those neither . Here againe you doe manifestlie contradict the text of Scripture ; and open the waie to let errour and heresie into the Church . For , if the holie Ghost teach no more , by the promise of our Sauiour , then those fewe points ; it is impossible for men to knowe the truth touching other reuealed verities ; though they be necessarie to be knowne . And the iudge of controuersies , the holie Ghost , being put ●o silence , errour , in all other matters of that kinde , is remedilesse .

For example ; if a man denies the Sacrament of Baptisme ; this errour were pernicions to the Church ; and ●hould it preuaile in all , ( as it might ●f the holie Ghost taught nothing but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed , ) both infants , and others inmumerable , would be ruined thereby : for , vnles a man be borne againe of water and the holie Ghost , Ioh. 3. he shall ●ot enter into the kingdome of heauen . The Eucharist is not expressed in the Apostles Creed , yet you saie that it is necessarie to receaue it , and , by the diuine commaund , in both kinds . The commandements and the interpretation which our Sauiour gaue of them , be not expressed there ; yet the Church hath , them , and the whole Christian lawe , written in her heart by the spirit of the liuing God . Our obligations towards superiours , of all sorts , ( in conscience , and by diuine precept , to be performed , ) and the rules of Christian conuersation , be not expressed there , though the Church may not be ignorant of them Pastors and Bishops are necessarie and , by God ordained for her direction ; and the Prophecies be necessarie for confirmation of her faith ; and therefore she is to knowe both the one and the other , though they be not expreslie in the Apostles Creed .

I speake of that Creed , because you name it ; as also , because the certaintie of other Creeds , set out in Councells ; or , of the explication made and proposed by the Church is the thing here disputed . I acknowledge it , as proceeding from the assistance of the holie Ghost , to the Church , in more then is expressed in the Apostles Creed . Hence it is that I beleeue the Nicene , or that of S. A●hanasius . if you beleeue it too , then ●ecall your answer ; for whilst it stands , there is no remedie for errours in these matters , and many more ; nor way of assurance for many things , which it is necessarie for the Church to knowe .

Moreouer it is certaine by the Gospells , that our blessed Sauiour ●aught many things to the Church , ●oth before his passion , and after his ●esurrection , which are not expres●ed in the Apostles Creede , whereun●o , you think , only , assistance is ex●ended . Reade the Gospell of S. ●ohn all ouer , or of S. Luke , or S. Ma●hewe ; and you shall finde this to be ●ue . And these things also , the Spi●it , according to promise , doth suggest . I haue yet many things to saie vn●o you , which you cannot beare nowe ; ●ut , when he , the Spirit of truth , comes , ●e shall teach you all truth : for he shall ●ot speake of himselfe ; Ioh. 16. but what things soeuer be shall heare , he shall speake . This before his passion ; and after it , for fortie daies he appeared to them , speaking of the kingdome of God . Act. Apost. c. 1. Now , that all this , whether written , or not written , otherwise then by the holie Ghost in the minde and heart of the Church , is included within the obiect of the promised assistance , I proue by no lesse authoritie then of our Sauiour Iesus Christ ; vpon whose promises , all that acknowledge him to be true God , Ioh. 14. should relie , beleeuing them and him , as most faithfull . He , ( the Spirit of truth ) shall teach you all things , and suggest vnto you , all whatsoeuer I shall haue said vnto you .

It is also necessarie for the Church to knowe the Scripture , and the sē●● , which without assistance of the holie Ghost cannot be done , as I could easilie shew were I to treate of that matter : Vide Disputat . li. 3. c. 4. & 5. but forbearing that discourse , 〈◊〉 demaund Whether it be necessarie for the Church to knowe that o●● Sauiour did ordaine Baptisme , and Eucharist , and Order ? ( if perchanc● you thinke the institution of Bishop to be * * Acts 20. deuine ; ) and , how a man may knowe the meaning of those passages of Scripture which doe mention these things ; or , that the texts , indeed be , Scripture ; if the holie Ghost , doth by promise , teach the Church no more then what is expressed in the Apostles Creed ? I demaund also , how you come to be certaine that he doth teach that which in the Creed is expressed ? or , that he doth teach any at all ? if by the Scripture ; them he teacheth more then is expressed in the Apostles Creede ; for , the Scripture is not expreslie there . And my demaund returnes againe with a greater difficultie then before ; If he teach none but what is expressed in the Apostles Creed , how be you certaine that the Gospells be diuine Scripture ? who taught you that ? The same Question I will aske , and you must answer ( mark well ) of euerie Cha●ter ; and of the meaning of euerie verse which you pretend to be against any part of our whole doctrine ; or to make for any peece , of your Religion .

Thirdlie , some perchance will obiect , that though he teach the Church all the dogmaticall points , or heauenlie doctrine which our Sauiour taught and commended , yet this is not verified of the Bishops and Pastors , but onlie of the symbolicall or vniuersall Church , which may retaine it , though the Bishops and Pastors all should erre . You knowe , out of the begining of this Relection , where this euasion is insinuated ; and being beaten from your owne hereticall tenet of the whole Church erring , you seeme to make an offer , in the end to repose heere . But , none that beleeues the Scripture , can rest in it ; First because our Sauiours words are directed to the Apostles and their Successors , who were to teach ; and needed assistance in it ; Ioann. 14. he shall teach you . And so they did vnderstand it , as appeares by their decree whereof I am to speake afterwards . Secondlie the symbolicall or vniuersall Church doth include Pastors and people ; and the people are to learne of the Pastors , whose office is to teach ; how shall they beleeue vnles they heare ? and how shall they heare with out a preacher ? Rom. 10. Teach all Nations , was said , Matth. vlt. not to the people , but to the Pastors ; Ioann . vlt. and S. Peter and his successors in him , were bid to feede the flock of Christ : wherefore it was requisite the Pastors on whom the people , and among them the predestinate , depend for instruction , should be assisted in their teaching : especiallie then when they speake all , the same . Thirdlie , our Sauiour ordained Pastors and Doctors in the Church , Ephes. 4. to the end that wee be not wauering and borne about with euerie winde of doctrine , in the circumuention of errour ; and if this meanes , which is established till the worlds end , be fit for this purpose , ( as no Christian can thinke otherwise of our Sauiours prouidence , whom he beleeues to be God , ) it is assisted so , that it neuer errs in the doctrine of the faith which it deliuers to the world with obligation to beleeue it . Fourthlie , if euer wee are to beleeue that Christ speaketh and resolueth doubts by the Pastors of the Church , according to that , He which heareth you heareth me , Luc. 10. he which contemneth you contemneth me ; wee must beleeue , that when all , deliuer one and the same thing , as Gods word or meaning , vnto the world ; then , without all doubt , our Sauiour speakes by them : and he who heares or contemnes them , doth heare or contemne Iesus Christ , whose ministers and Embassadors they be . 2. Corint. 5.

Neither doe you satisfie this argument by saying that you will heare them if they speake according to the word of God ; Disput. li. 3. c. 1. & 2. for , therein you challenge vnto your selfe , without warrant , that , which you denie to the whole clergie , who in the Apostles were bid teach , and had the promise of assistance : and , in the Question , Whether they or you haue the true sence of Gods word , ( as of this , This is my body , ) you , most arrogantlie , doe make your selfe the iudge . Your selfe I say , without the Spirit ; denying in the meane time , and impugning the power of iudging in this case , in and to them , which haue and shewe , the promise of the Spirit . Vt Diodorum ac Theod. non expellerent PP . aut inuenerunt eos iam mutasse sententiam , aut quod extremum est , admonitos mutate fecerunt . Nam aliter co● in Ecclesia Catholica manere potuisse quis sapiens Catholicus credat ? Cum verò tanta quae dicta sunt , ego indoctus & Latinae linguae , de causa apud Graecos habita , post centum annos pro meo captu & facultate , vel intelligere vel explicare potuerim , quanta credendum est illam Sanctorum Patrum Congregationem in causa penes se & recenti memoria cognoscere potuisse , illo etiam reuelante qui dixit , Vbi sunt duo vel tres congregati in nomine meo , ibi in medio eorum sum ? Nam fideliter inuocatus non solum à Sacerdotibus , sed ab omni quoque populo suo , cuius fides & expectatio ex illorum Authoritate dependet , dat omnibus congregatis vnum cor & animam vnam , vt nullus eorum suam velit esse sententiam , nisi quae fuerit veritatis . Quo●ies ibi doctiores indoctioribus , & plures paucioribus , illo eorum medio cedunt ? Q●oties etiam per nescientes scienter operatur ipse qui potest omnia facere supra quam petimus , aut intelligimus ; qui promisit quòd nobiscum sit omnibus di●bus vsque ad consummationem saeculi ? Vtinam sibi nunquam saecularis potestas , quod ei creditum non est , in his negotijs vsurparet , quae nunquam faeliciter vsurpauit . Caeterùm congregatis in suo nomine Christus deesse non potest : quia cùm sit omnipotens Veritas , mentiri nullatenus potest . Facund . Episc. Defens . Chalced. Concilij li 8. c. 7. Et in eandem sententiam plura , li. 12. c. 2. inter alia verò , de sancto Leone dicit , Neque vlterius retractare neque discutere se posse professus est ea , quae semel fuerant Chalcedonensi definita Concilio , velut quae nosset non tam humano quàm diuino Spiritu constituta . This Father , as also S. Aug. when they saie God reueales vnto the Councell , vse the word something largelie , in the sence imported in the promise of Assistance ; docebit vos . suggeret vobis . See the Disput. pag 404. See the Disput. l. 3. c. 6.

Fourthly , he that seeth the truth of this , and would yet flie Councells , will imagine perchance , that , although the Pastors all dispersed , when they consent , haue the warrant of the Spirit ; yet , not when they be gathered in a Councell . But this imagination argues a weaknes in conceauing the termes which are spoken of ; for , in this congregation or Councell , there is the whole teaching-power : which teaching power , ( as hath been shewed ) hath , and by promise , diuine assistance ; and is to establish the rest , predestinate and all , in faith and true beleefe .

Fiftlie , you will saie that in generall Councells all the Pastors or Bishops be not present ; if they were , you would beleeue what they propose ; because the whole exteriour teaching-authoritie is there obliging ; and they shewe their warrant , Luc. ●0 he that heareth you heareth me . Would your fellowes doe this , there were but one thing more to be disputed in this matter , that is , Whether it be necessarie to the generalitie of a Councell , that all the Pastors and Bishops without exception , be actuallie present in it ; the resolution of which Question wee haue in the practice of the Apostles , and of the primitiue Church . so that no further difficultie can be pretended , if the truth be reallie our desire , and hereticall obstinacie put aside . See the Disput. li. 4. c. 7. & 8.

Against the later place , which brings with it the Apostles interpretation of the promise registred in the former ; it is said first that , although that Councell had the assistance of the holie Ghost in making of their decree , so that it was , his also , as their words import ; yet others after , haue it not , it was , ( you think ) a priuiledge in them , and lasted no longer in the Church , but wilst they liued . This euasion is precluded , both by the words , and the circumstances of the graunt ; it was made vnto the Apostles as Pastors , for establishing of the Church , ( dedit Pastores , Ephes. 4. vt iam non simus paruuli fluctuantes , & circumferamur &c. ) which Church needed it , not onelie in the Apostles time , but afterwards , The Arian , Sabellian , Nestorian , and other Heresies . as other difficulties ( whereof some were about the most fundamentall points , in the verie Creed , ) did arise : and the diuel hath not yet donne , suggesting heresie and oppugning the doctrine which our Sauiour left vnto the Church ; and thereby , impugning Him , and Her ; wherefore , still it is necessarie . And accordinglie , the promise was absolute ; without limitation of yeeres ; or ages . Yea the text it selfe , hath in aeternum , Ioann . 14. Ephes. 4. for euer : and , donec occurramus omnes , vntill wee meete all .

Secondlie it is said , that vnto Pastors so assembled , the holie Ghost by vertue of the promise , is present assisting to fundamentall points ; but no further . Before , you would haue detracted from the graunt and wiped out of it , the latitude of time : now you limit it for the matter . If a Lawier should vse your lease so , you would exclaime that he did corrupt it . When our Sauiour had prayed to his Father that he would establish or Sanctifie his Apostles ( and those who by their meanes were to beleeue in him , that is , his Church , ) in the truth ; he did presentlie , vnfould what he meant by that truth , and said sermo tuus est veritas , thy word ( the word of God ) is the truth ; and in this , which comprehends not the Apostles Creed onlie , he would haue them established . This sanctification is according to S. Cyrill , a participation of the holy Ghost , ad intelligendas rectè Scripturas , & Ecclesiae dogmata , Cyrill . Alex. in Ioan. li. 11. cap. 25. to vnderstand the Scriptures well , and the doctrine of the Church . In a like fullnes doth our Sauiour himselfe expresse the latitude of this assistance , the shall teach you all things and suggest vnto you all what soeuer I shall haue said vnto you . Ioann. 14. So did the Apostle vnderstand it also , in saying that Pastors are giuen to the end wee doe not wauer , Ephes. 4. nor be borne about with euery winde of doctrine . Such a giddines , happens in other things also , besides fundamentalls .

The Church likewise beleeues the graunt to be thus vniuersall ; to all our Sauiours doctrine : as appeareth by the matters which she defineth in generall Councels ; as in that of Trent . And so much you will acknowledg of the primitiue Church , if you reflect vpon that which hath beene said out of S. Augustine , in the Donatists case about Baptisme ; which controuersie ( not being expressed in the Apostles Creed , ) was in a Councell , defined ; and , in vertue of this assistance ; by the whole Christian world . Neither doe you finde the difficultie , which was resolued by the Apostles in their Councell , put into the Creede .

Thirdlie you saie that out of a generall assistance , such as God giues euerie man towards euerie good worke , infallibilitie cannot be inferd ; and more you will not graunt . But our Sauiour graunted more ; he promised the holie Ghost should teach the Church all truth ; Ioh. 14. & 16. and his lessons must not be doubted of ; he cannot misse the truth , or teach a lie . The sence which he doth inspire , teach , affirme , is certaine ; and the falsitie of any one thing ( were it possible he should teach a falsitie , ) would infinitelie preiudice his authoritie , in the estimation of his creatures , yea , the whole Scripture would be questioned , if this ground were not firme ; ● . Petr. 1. if that were not certaine , which men , inspired by the holie Ghost , and affirming , as from him , or he , in them ; might be false .

Fourthlie you saie that if the Councell follow Scripture , it hath assistance and is infallible ; but not els . This supposeth that the Church without assistance can vnderstand the Scripture , or teach and define matter of faith ; whereas our Sauiour in the Scripture saith , Ioann. 15. without him wee can doe nothing ; and therefore he hath promised assistance , that wee may knowe his will , and our dutie ; and left the holie Ghost in the Church to teach her all truth . The Iewes , and Pagans , and heretikes , looke on Scripture ; but they doe not vnderstand it . The Church hath a Master the Holie Ghost , left to teach her ; and by his helpe , doth vnderstand . What need a Schoolemaster , if your child doth by himselfe vnderstand his booke ? or will you call it instruction , if he neuer tell him any thing , but what the child himselfe knowes before ? you knowe moreouer , that when the Controuersie is about the Scripture , the written word ; or , about the Apostles Creed ; or generall tradition ; assistance is necessarie : and also , for the sence of Scripture , more then is by your definition , fundamentall . To omitt , that in your answer you allowe the Church no greater securitie from errour , by the promised assistance , then you graunt to be in pagans and heretikes without it : for , they dot not erre , if they followe Scripture , and iudge as it is there . So little is the discretion of this answer , and so small a benefit , or rather no benefit you conceaue to be bestowed in that faire promise . Whereas wee , beleeue our Sauiour to be God who neither mocks his Church nor breakes his word : he can , and will , make and bringe to passe , Ezech. 36. that she walke in his precepts . He writes his lawes in her heart ; Ierem. 31. what hinders him ? and keepes his words , Isa. 59. in her mouth . He hath opened a Schoole , and put a Master in the chaire . Docebit saith he , he shall teach ; and , if the lesson be forgot , suggeret , Ioan. 14. he shall bringe it to minde againe : he is not to staie till men finde it of them selues ; he is Master , and shall teach it .

Fiftlie , you saie that you are content exteriour obedience be giuen to generall Councells , but no more . Yet more must be giuen to the holie Ghost , and in Councells He defineth . Visum est Spiritui Sancto & nobis , Act. 15. were the words of the Councell , it seemeth good to the holie ghost and to vs ; not to vs onlie , but to him , in himselfe ; and in vs , heere assembled , with his assistance ( promised in cases of this nature , and wee are certaine that he who promised will performe , ) to decide a controuersie : our act , is , his act ; 2 Cor. 13. to Him it hath seemed good . In S. Paul Christ spake ; the Apostles words , 1. Thess. 1. were acknowledged to be , and were indeed , the words of God ; Luc 10. the holie Ghost speakes in the Church ; the definition is his : you must beleeue it ; and , Matt. 18. remotis dubitationibus to vse S. Augustines words ; S. Aug. suprà . there is no more doubt to be made of it .

In the conclusion of your discourse you repeate againe what you said in the beginning , Alij fatentur opus esse iudice loquente●e● homine . Volunt tamen posse ab eo prouocari in foro in ●erno sea conscientiae . Si● Wittakerus &c. Sed hoc facilè refellitur , tum quia in hac materia gratis confingitur haec distinctio fori : tum etiam quia pax Ecclesiae sita est potissimum in foro interno , scilicet in fide ; ergo non licet in eo foro prouocare à Iudice Ecclesiae , alioquin nunquam pax esset conscientiae : tum praeterea quia praxis Ecclesiae in Concilio Apostolorum , & aliorum generalium Conciliorum planè declarat quod Iudex Ecclesiae habeat potestatem dirimendi lites in foro conscientiae : tum demum quia si quis teneretur obedire iudicio Ecclesiae in foro externo & non in interno , teneretur aliquando silentio sepelire veritatem Dei , eamque non confiteri coram hominibus , nempe si Ecclesia sententiam ferret contra Dei veritatem . Accedit quod potestas Ecclesiae est spiritualis & in animas ipsas , ergo potestas illius iudicandi se extendit etiam ad forum internum . Reuerendiss . Chalc. in Collat. li. 2. c. 28. that wee beleeuing the Councels to be directed in their Decrees by the Holie Ghost in vertue of our Sauiours promise made vnto the Church , attribute more to them then Antiquitie hath donne . The vanitie of which your pretence sufficientlie appeares by that which hath beene answered to your exceptions in particular . You finde none that denies what wee beleeue . Yea those whom you produce to speake against vs , affirme it , constantlie . And who more Auncient in the ranck of Christians , then the Apostles themselues , whose testimonie you haue heard in our behalf . You haue beene told also that in Sainct Augustines daies the Catholikes vniuersallie , and amongst them the greatest schollers submitted their iudgments to the iudgment of the Church in Councell : and this too , though the point so determined were neither fundamentall , nor found in Scripture . You shall finde also ( as hath beene likewise insinuated by occasion of your discourse ) in the Councell of Chalcedon , six hundred Fathers together , acknowledging diuine assistance to the Nicene , so farre , that the Decrees , they said , could not be retracted without 1 1 Si ergo Spiritus Sanctus consedit Patribus , vt manifeste consedit & ordinauit que ordinata sunt , qui retractat ea Spiritus Sancti cassat gratiam . Sancta Synodus dixit , Omnes haec dicimus . Anathema qui retractat . Conc. Chalced. Acti . 1. making void the grace of the Holie Ghost . And others accordinglie saie they were 2 2 S. Leo , Epist. 53. & 54. vide etiam S. Aug. li. 6. de Bapt. c. 39. diuinelie ordained , 3 3 Si quis fidem illam à sancta & magna Synodo optimè & diuino afflatu definitam ac expositam , dicere voluerit basim animarum nostrarum , fundamentum que inconcussum & munitum , is vtique probatissime loquitur . Lib. 1. de Trinit apud Cyrill . Alexand. Suis autem verbis à nobis scribatur , diuinum & sanctissimum Synodi illius Oraculum . Ibidem . Vide S. Ambros li. 1. de Fide , ad Gratian. oracles of faith . It sufficeth to make instance in that one , being the first oecumenicall that was celebrated after the Apostles daies ; to shewe that it stopped not in them , but was continued after their ( the Apostles ) time , vnto the Church . And in like manner it was affoorded afterwards to the second , and the third , and fourth ; the decrees of which 4 4 li. 1 Regest . Epist . 24. Quintum quoque Concilium pariter ve●eror . Ibidem S. Gregorie , our Apostle , did honour as the Gospels ; and so also to the rest ; by vertue of one and the same Promise ; made absolutelie , to the Church . Vpon which promise that also of the Apostles did relie , as before hath been obserued .

Moreouer the Fathers held , that the definitions of oecumenicall Councells might not be called into a a Conc. Chalc. acti 1. anathema ●●qui re●ractat . De rebus apud Nicaeam , & apud Chalcedonam definitis , nullum audemus inire tractatum , tanquam dubia vel infirma sint , quae tanta per Spiritum sanctum fixit authoritas . S. Leo epist. 78. vbi plura in eandem sententiam . doubt ; that they were rather to loose their b b S. Ambros . epist. 32. S. Hier. contra Luciferian . liues then to denie them ; that those who did oppugne them , were c c Nullo modo fieri potest vt q●i diuinis a●dent contradicere sacramentis aliqua nobis communio●e socientur S. Epist 78. Pat●faciētes in omnibus & probantes non esse omnino inter Catholicos computandos , qui definitiones venerabilis Synodi Nicenae , vel sancti Chalcedonensis Concilij regulas non sequuntur . Ibidem . not Catholikes , but d d S. August . de Haeres . nu 69. S. Basil . epist. 78. S. Athanas . epist. ad Epict. Vincent . Lyri . c. 41. heretikes . And the Councels themselues did e e Conc Nice . Ephesin . &c. anathematize all , that reiected , or dissented from them . Now by these anathematismes and excommunications ; by the deepe censure , and branding with the note of Heresie ; by the deniall of the name of Catholike , to such as did stubbornelie contradict oecumenicall definitions : by the knowne custome of the Pastors , in all ages , and cases of greatest difficultie , ( when soeuer they could with safetie meete in Councell , ) to define sub anathemate , and to oblige all to conformitie without further dispute or doubt ; ( they being the men whom our Sauiour hath giuen to teach his people and establish them in the truth : ) by the generall obedience of the Symbolicall or vniuersall Church , in all times , to the Pastors , so teaching ; ( manifested in their acceptation of such Decrees , and conformable profession of the faith : ) by the esteeme which holie Fathers had of Councells , whereof in Saint Augustine I gaue an instance , in the case of S. Cyprian , and , by the Apostles practice , in regard and contemplation of the promise ; together with their reall interpretation of it : the meaning of those words , The Spirit of truth shall teach you all truth ; and He gaue Pastors and Doctors , that wee be not wauering or borne about with euerie winde of doctrine ; is so discouered ; and the tradition of assistance and direction , afforded to Councels oecumenicall , in their decrees of faith , so confirmed ; that a weaker sight then yours may discerne it .

You may further call to minde , that the Councels wherein the Controuersies betwixt the Protestants and vs are defined , be receaued by the whole Church , and by it vniuersallie approued . Wherefore , had any of those you name , told you that an oecumenicall Councell might mistake , and erre ; the decrees of faith made in these Councels , as in that of Trent for example , had still beene , according to their iudgment , notwithstanding , to be admitted ; because the Vniuersall Church , hath receaued and approued them . And you , opposing them , do oppose , not a Councell onlie , but the Catholike and Vniuersall Church ; and the Spirit in her , the Spirit of truth , remaining in , and with her , to teach her all truth .

That this is the Catholike Church , and not yours , nor the whole companie of such as professe themselues Christians as it includes both the Orthodox and Hereticks , you see proued and defended f f Disp. of the Church . elswere . If your Spirit be disposed to contradict it , bring your Catalogue of men that held your Articles , all : men , purelie Orthodox according to the new straine , without any defect or superstruction ; whose tenents intirelie be * *

The Vniuersalitie of the Church , and the long Communion of the Graecians and other Nations with it , is demonstrated at large by C. Baronius in his Annals : and briefelie in the Disputation of the Church pag. 145. 146. 147. & 148.

By the Church thus Vniuersall , in her flourishing time , the Nestorian and Eutychean Heresies , which made against the fundamentall articles of Christianitie and the common Creede , were you know , condemned : and such as abbetted them were cut of from Communion , lawfullie and oecumenicallie in the Councels of Ephesus and Chalcedon . Wherefore in the Catalogue which you are to make do not put vnder the titles of Orthodox or Members of the Catholike Communion , any Nations or People ( howeuer great ) approuing and maintaining either of these Errours . Such as were the Nestorians , Armenians , Iacobites , Abassins , and Aegyptians or Cophti ; as appeares by Photius , Damascen , Euthymius , Nicephorus , Prateolus , Guido , Baronius , Miraeus , Godignus , and others .

Neither can you challeng them as yours when they were re-vnited to the Church and See of Rome , as the Grecians , Armenians and others were in the Councell of Florence , ( Acta Conc. Flor. in Decreto Eugen. Aemilius , Platina ; Chalcondas , Gordonus . See also Miraus , Not. Episc. li. 1. c. 18. ) but you must finde a time when they neither held with vs , nor abbetted either of the foresaid Heresies ; but were entirelie Protestant or Orthodox in your sence . And the Catalogue must represent vnto vs in all Ages some of these , so many as may challeng from all other Communities the title of the Catholike and Vniuersall Church .

If you looke vpon the whole aggregation of Christian Churches that euer were in the world before Luther , you shall finde the Societie of beleeuers in Communion with the See of Rome to be without all Controuersie the greatest and most Vniuersall . And , that Arians , Nestorians , Iacobites , Armenians , and others going out of it to subsist by themselues , neuer could arriue any of them , to that Vniuersalitie .

Where you will finde or feigne your Protestant more Vniuersall Congregation , or of what kind of men or what fantoms rather it doth consist , wee shall know when your description of the Spaces Imaginarie comes out in print . What is to be obserued in the drawing of your Catalogue hath beene partlie told you in the Disp. lib. 1. c. 1. 2. 3. & 4.

currant there , and iustified by you their children : and this continuallie , euer since the Apostles daies ; with Pastors , lawfullie ordained . Proue that yours was , and that ours was not the Church which hath celebrated Councels , condemned Heresies , conuerted Nations , &c. Meane while ( and euer , for this taske will be neuer donne , ) wee do securelie subscribe to the Decrees of Councels oecumenicall , approued and receaued generallie by that Communitie , out of which your Father Luther , went : and do not doubt at all , to imbosome our selues in that Church , which , by Successions of Bishops from the See Apostolike , hath , euen to the acknowledgment and confession of mankind , obtained the top of Authoritie ; Hereticks in vaine barking round about , and condemned ; partlie by the iudgment of the very multitude or common people , partlie by the grauitie of Councels , and partlie by the maiestie of miracles . To which Church not to giue the prize , it is verilie , either extreame impietie , or foole-hardie presumption .