The world being a wonderfull machine of variety , of greatnes , and of admiration , contayneth in it diuers sorts of creatures , but all of them conditioned and qualified like vnto it selfe ; that is to say , full of interest , and rapine : the birdes of the aire by flying , the fishes of the water by swymming , and the beasts of the earth by running , to catch and deuoure whatsoeuer they can ouertake : why then alone should man be blamed , for seeking in like manner to prouide for himselfe , aswell as the rest ; vnlesse you would thinke it conuenient continually to striue against kind , as the Giants be said by Cicero to ha●e done , when they stroue against the Heauens , the which would be no small infelicity ? Or that on the other side it should be good for vs by labouring all to be Angells heere on earth , to derogate from the celestiall spirits their due , and to vsurpe vnto our selues their blessednes before our time , which I thinke may be done soone inough , when we ariue vnto the place where they be liuing : in the meane while , in such sort , and with such an intermixture of cogitations and actions , as , not depriuing vs alltogeather of the way to Heauen , we may not also loose the fruition of those benefits which the world is still ready to bestow vpon vs .

Your manner of speach is somwhat extrauagant , but yet to make therof the most fauourable construction , my meaning was not in that which I said a little before to taxe the world in such a general sort , as by this your answere it seemeth you vnderstand me to haue done : but only to inferre vpon your owne words spoken in the behalfe of your mentioned friend , that the world was like to haue inough to do , to satisfy the worldlines of such swelling spirits , as he that thought himselfe to be another Mercurius . And this chiefly for only hauing had the happe to vncipher a simple ciphered Letter , and no more : the which by all likelihood , either a sollicitous Merchant , or a common Notarie might well inough haue beene able to do , no lesse then he .

Though you make but light accompt therof ; yet I do attribute much vnto the mind of such a man , who being so well perswaded of his owne doing , doth redouble therby the force of all his other sufficiency . The which alone were able to pricke him potently forward vnto some notable degree of Excellency , in whatsoeuer profession he should betake himselfe vnto : since the greatest operations hitherto done by any of the most famous men of the world , haue for the most part been seen to take their beginning from a good opinion of themselues .

I see as yet no contrary reason , why , to alter my opinion therein .

You put me in remembrance hereby , of a certayne Grecian Prince called Clitus , who for hauing ouerthrowne by sea some three or foure little Barkes , gloryed so much therof , as he vsurped the name of the God of the Waters , & caused himselfe to be called Neptune .

If Amasis the Egyptian had not had in him a great mind , and a greater opinion of himselfe , & his owne doings , then his fortune would seeme by birth to haue allotted him , he had neuer risen to be King of Egypt .

That same art of rising , as I perceiue by your words , is a very principall and materiall point , which greatly occupieth and troubleth your mind .

I know but few who either are not for the present , or haue not bene contented heeretofore , to trouble themselues sometimes with such cogitations as these .

An old Philosopher being asked by such an aspiring wordling , as you haue spoken of , what Iupiter was doing in heauen ? answered : He doth nothing els but make ladders for some to ascend , and some to descend by .

And what of this , I pray you ?

His blindnes notwithstanding was such , as it rather increased his folly than otherwise , by giuing him occasion to perplexe himselfe about the ascending ladder only , but nothing at all about the descending .

I expect to heare the end of your intention .

My meaning herein is this , that such worldly cogitations , be for the most part greater in the imagination , then they happen to prooue in effect .

Then belike you will resemble a worldly man vnto King Ag●●●● his shoomaker , who was wont to make great shooes for little feete .

¶ Heere Subsolanus interrupting a little their talke , began to say thus .

In these mysticall reckonings of yours , me thinks you pay one another like as a souldier of Aegipt did , who only with the sound of his money paid a brawling Cook , for the smel of his rost-meate ; since what with variety , and what with obscurity you determine of nothing .

Indeed , as you say , we Northern borderers be very obscure fellowes , for that we call a Hare a Hare , and a Dogge a Dogge , when we talke togeather in our owne domesticall language .

So that you leaue , I perceaue , vnto me ( said Fauonius ) to answer vnto the imputed variety of our talke , as also to the not determining of our things somewhat better . And therfore to follow our proposition a little more strictly then before , I say now : That whereas worldlines transgresseth most of all in excesse , if it be on your part amended , & temperately moderated , the rekconing will be easily made vp betwixt vs .

As though in such a man ( sayd Aquilonius ) as followeth the world attentiuely , there might not be tolerated , sometimes , an once of excesse in his actions , to get thereby a pound of credit .

This kind of merchandize I do not well vnderstand .

As for example , to commit some sort of excesse , eyther in extending somewhat too far the opinion of his owne sufficiency , or by vndertaking the execution of some greater enterprize , then he is well able to performe .

But what if his debility in eyther of these cases , should be after discouered ; would not this be rather a discredit , then a credit vnto him ?

The disered it were like inough to be attributed to his attentiue forwardnes in the affaires of the world , and the credit , if any happen , would fall vnto himselfe , aduancing him thereby not a little .

So that forwardnes in worldly affaires , you take to be a sufficient warrant to excuse any morall error whatsoeuer .

I do so indeed , Fauonius . But what if a man by louing the world ouer well , should vtterly loose himselfe , yet his worldlines will not so easely loose herselfe in him .

It seemeth hereby you haue not yet considered this other point , that there is not scarcely any thing in the world to be found so dangerous to be dealt withall , as worldlines it selfe , which as sayth an old Doctour of your owne Schoole , in his booke De Ciuitate Dei , leadeth men vnto things that be vaine , hurtfull , full of biting thoughts , perturbations , afflictions , feares , foolish delights , discords , quarrells , warres , intrapments , wrath , enimity , falsity , flattery , deceipt , stealth , rapine , obstinacy , pride , ambition , enuy , slaughters of men , of parents , of friends , of kinsemen , cruelty , malignity , carnalty , bouldnes , vnshamefastnes , violence , pouerty , fornication , adultery of all sorts , and other filthines , which are not fit to be spoken of ; sacriledge , heresies , periuries , oppressions , calumniations , preuarications , false testimonies , iniust Iudgments , inforcements , theeuery , and such like . And therefore not without cause is it elsewhere said , That the world , with her worldlings , is an assembly of wicked men a slaughter-house of good men , a nourisher of vice , an oppressor of vertue , an enemy of peace , a freind of contention and warre , a sweet receptacle of wicked men , a bitter intertayner of good men , a defender of lies , an inuentor of nouelties , an vnquietnes of ignorant men , a Martyrdome of euill men , a table of glottons , an ouen of concupissence , a Carybdes and a Scylla of suffocating thoughts : Whereupon it is said further by another , that the world doth hate those that do loue it , deceaue those that trust it , persecute those that serue it , afflict those that esteeme it , dishonor those that honor it , & forget those who do most of all remember it : Whose conuersation is full of affliction , whose myrth full of melancholy , whose pleasure full of remorse , whose consolation full of scruple , and whose prosperity is full of feare : Liberall it is in promising , and scarce in performing , producing many euills ; and is the occasion of many miserable effects , beginning without any prudence , & ending with bitter repentance . And therfore it is to be beheld a far off , like a monstrous and rauenous beast , least he that commeth too neere it , be deuoured by it . For the more familiar any man is with the world , the more perillous it is : vsing those men worse who do fauour it , then those who do abhorre it : And to loue it , & not to perish in it , is a thing impossible , because making shew of one thing it deceaueth men with another , like as Iezabel would haue deceaued Iehu , 4. Reg. 9. shewing to him her fine platted head , but sought to hyde from him her further abhominations : So as many it deceaueth , and many also it vtterly blindeth .

Then to begin with your selfe for one ; the world me thinkes would seeme to haue also blinded you , in not letting you see whome you calumniate heerein . For who made the world , I pray you , that you will needs inueigh so much against worldlings ? and that with such great exageration , as you haue vsed , to impeach the same ?

¶ Heere Subsolanus interposing himselfe betwixt them againe , spake in this manner .

Not so ho●tly , Aquilonius : this matter would be talked of betwixt you a little more calmely . And therfore to allay somewhat your earnestnes , a conuenient occasion of some little pause is profered . We haue now talked standing a good while : let vs therfore take these chaires and sit downe , for that this Conference I doubt me , may continue long . No ceremonies at all , I pray you . In this lodging of myne , you must be content to be ruled by me . Take you the patience to sit heere , and you there : this other more vneasie seate you shall giue me leaue to take to my selfe . And let this be our custome still without any more adoe , so often as heerafter we shall meet togeather , admitting also this other allied Assistant of myne , to be present in the hindmost place , to supply all occasions which may happen , & likewise for his owne instruction if he thinke good , to note downe any thing that shal be said , for he hath inke and paper there by him : who to the end he may know , before hand , the scope whereunto our Conference hath to tend , and we also keep amongst our selues the better accompt of our owne indeauours , it will not perhaps be amisse , if I do here begin ( by your good leaues and liking ) to set downe some argumentes fit to be spoken of , during the twentie and seauen dayes , which we haue to abide in this Citty . And because three things do chiefly present themselues to be heere considered , namely the Variety of the World , the Subordination therof , and the Folly of the same ; therfore the first nyne dayes we will treate of Variety ; the second nyne dayes of Subordination ; and the last nyne dayes of the Folly of the world . And so to begin first with the Variety of the World , because , touching the same , there occurre three things to be considered , namely Humane Nature , the Mynd of man , and the Body of man ( from the which all Variety doth proceed : ) therfore as concerning the first branch , we will the first three dayes debate of Profit , of Pleasure , and of Honour : the second three dayes we will debate of Ignorance , of Opinion , and of Science : and the last three dayes our Conference shall be concerning Education , Trauaile , and Repose . And now because Aquilonius a little before hath so earnestly asked , who made the world ; I my selfe will take vpon me this burthen to tel it you , if you will but lend a little patience to heare the same . So it is therfore that about the creation of the world , the Poets first had two fictions , the one , that it was done by Demogorgon , Eternity , Chaos , and Erebus ; and the other that it was made by Iupiter , Hebe , Prometheus , and Epimetheus , wherof the one is very foolish and fond , and the other ridiculous . Also the Philosophers had diuers opinions therof . Aristotle was of the mynd , that the world was ab aeterno , & that consequently it should endure for euer . Democritus held , that it was created of inseparable Atomi : And Plato saith , that the primitiue matter therof was ab aeterno , but that the world it selfe had a beginning , though it shall haue no end . Finally our Deuins ( who teach the infallible truth , as well concerning this point , as other matters of Faith ) hold , that the world it selfe & the primitiue matter therof were both created , and therfore subiect to corruption : all I meane saue the Intellectuall spirits , and Celestiall bodyes only , the which according to some Deuines are eternized by the excellency of their formes , and also of the matter that God hath giuen them ; yet so , as they are certainly to be transmuted , and purified againe , more then as yet they are . But whether the Intellectuall , the Celestiall , & Terrestriall worlds were all created at once , some diuersity of opinions is found euen amongst the Deuins themselues . For S. Augustine , S Thomas , S. Bonauenture , and all the other Doctors of the Scholes do generally hould , that there was of them all , but one creation : and this is taken for the only true opinion . Though otherwise out of the doctrine of some of the ancient Fathers , some thinke it may be probably gathered ; that God created first the Intellectuall , and Incorporeall world ; that is to say , the Angels or Intelligences . Secondly the Celestiall corporall world , contayning the Spheres of all the Heauens : and thirdly this Elementall corporall world of ours , and all things therin contayned . Which doctrine may more particulerly be drawne out of S. Damascen , de orthodoxa fide , lib. 1. cap. 14. then out of any of the rest , where he saith : that the good , and all good , and excelling good , that is to say Almighty God , being Goodnes it selfe , would not suffer his sayd Goodnes to remayne sole in himselfe , without communication therof to others ; and therefore created first the Angelicall world , next the Celestiall , and lastly the Elementall world . And according to this sense , some also do expound the words of S. Iohn in his Ghospell , the first Chapter , where he saith , In mundo erat , meaning therby the Angelicall world : Et mundus per ipsum factus est , therby vnderstanding the Celestiall world , Et mundus eum non cognouit , speaking of this Elemental world of ours ; wherof Christ himselfe also spake when he said , Regnum meum non est de hoc mundo . And heere haue I set downe these opinions concerning the creation of the world , to the end that the verity of the first may be distinguished from the curiosity of the second . Now then to descend vnto the subdiuision of this Terrestriall world , and the contents therof . First it contayneth the soule of the same , with all the primitiue procreable matters : Secondly it contayneth the foure Elements of Fier , Aire , Water , and Earth , the which are all corruptible , but yet of themselues perfect and vnmixt : Thirdly the mixed Meteors of Haile , Snow , and the like , the which are imperfect : Fourthly the more perfect bodyes of Mettals and Stones , the which are without life : Fiftly the vitall bodyes of Hearbes , Plants , and Trees , the which are without sense : Sixtly the sensible bodyes of Fishes , Foules , and Beastes , the which are without Reason . And lastly it conteyneth the vitall , sensible , and also reasonable Creature , to wit Man , whom God hath constituted and appoynted to be Lord and Maister ouer all the rest .

Not ouer all ; for that the woodes and deserts , he hath constituted for the habitation of wild beastes : The pastures and meddowes for the feeding of cattell : The ayre for that habitation of birdes : and the seas and waters for the feeding of fishes .

This doth not alter the case at all , for euen as in a magnificent Pallace , although the Kitchin , Stable , and other like places are more to be inhabited by the seruants , then by the Lord and Patron himselfe ; yet the Pallace cannot be said to be made for the seruants , but for the Patron only . And so we may likewise say of the vniuersall World : That though the wild Beastes , Cattell , Birdes , and Fishes do inhabite a great part therof ; yet both they themselues , and all the rest is made for the benefit of Man only . And that this to be true , what more manifest argument can you haue , then that out of the woods and deserts the strongest Lions , the swiftest Tigers , and the most monstrous Elephantes are taken , and tamed by Men , yea ledde vp and downe the world vnder the obedience and gouerment of Man ? Out of the pastures and meddowes he draweth to his yoke , the most vntamed Bull : and vnto his bridle the most fierce Horse ; and vnto his trap the most rauening Beare , or Wolfe . Out of the aire he bringeth into his snares the wildest sort of birdes , and maketh them after so tame , that though he turne them loose abroad they obay his voice , and returne againe vnto his lure . And out of the deepest seas he draweth into his nets innumerable sorts of fishes , yea the Whale himselfe falleth many tymes to his Prey , though he be sometimes so bigg , as an hundred men may stand hewing with their axes the flesh of his back .

Supposing it to be as you say , that man may do great things in the world , yet this would still ( me thinkes ) be vnderstood , not by his contemning the world , but by his more and more addicting himselfe therunto ; otherwise , either he for ●is part should seeme to haue byn made in vayne , or the world it selfe , touching temporall things , to haue been made to small effect .

It is no mar●ell at all , though the world , with her temporall small effects , do herin deceaue you , since the same long before , with the only effect of the beauty of the prohibited apple ●n Paradise , deceaued our first Mother Eue , before , by the Serpent , the reasons were yet giuen her to eate therof , Gen. cap. 3.

My meaning is not to reach so high , as vnto things done in Paradise , for that the case since then is altered with vs not a little ; only hereupon I ●elye me , and no more ; That the temporall wealth of the world , to those who liue in the same , is not to be contemned .

To come downe therfore ●omewhat lower ; the world with her glittering temporall wealth , like as now it deceaueth you ; so heretofore , in other kinds , it hath done the like vnto others , as it deceaued the children of Israël with the Moabites , Num. 25. Sampson with Dalida , Iud. 16. Acab with 400. false Prophets , 3. Reg. 22. and Naboth with the false promise made by Acab of a better vineyard then his owne , 3. Reg. 21. the which while Naboth attended to belieue , he was not only depriued of his vineyard , but also of his life . So that , the deceauing snares of the world , be Auarice , Pleasure , Sensuality , Flatterie , and Falsehood : wherof , the Auarice corrupteth , the Pleasure infecteth , the Sensuality wasteth , the Flattery swelleth , and the Falsehood betrayeth : according as in the world , it is easie inough so to do ; for that the world it selfe is like a Citty without a wall , a House without a dore , a Shippe without a helme , a Pot without a couer , and a Horse without a bridle .

None of all this though it cannot be well denied ; yet we also our selues , being more or lesse of the same condition that the world is , must be contented to take the temporall euill with the good .

Some temporall good , no doubt , there is in the world , though more be the euill , and more frequently appearing then the good it selfe . And therfore in the world there is not any ioy without dolour , any peace without discord , any quietnes without feare , any health without infirmity , any bread without labour , nor any pastime without discontentment : and which is worse , ech where the wicked do persecute the good , as Cain did Abel , Gen. 4. Ismaël , Isaac , Gen. 21. Esau , Iacob , Gen. 27. Saul , Dauid , 1. Reg. 19. and Iezabel , Elias , 3. Reg. 19. who againe for their labour , so soone as they , or any such other , be waxen rich , the world doth make them poore , and those that be poore , it maketh them rich , like as an Houre-glasse putteth the sand out of one cruet into another . So as no worldly man , can haue in the world any animosity at all , for the instability of his owne estate , readier then to come downe when he is at the highest : and therfore , all the animosity of the world , remayneth with vertue , whose state and dominion is high and full of generosity , while being as it is in the world , yet it pretendeth nothing of it . For which respect , better it were for a worldly man , to the end he may the more rely vpon vertue , to quit himselfe of his Wealth of his owne accord , rather then to be corrupted therby , or to see it consume away of it selfe , to his owne greater dolour in the end .

This counsell of yours is not vnlike vnto his , who aduised his friend , because a tooth of his had bitten his tongue , to pull out the tooth that did it , in reuenge of the dolour receaued therby ; though yet of the two , better a man may liue without teeth , then he may liue without wealth , which must nourish the teeth , the tongue , and all the rest .

If men were not seene , to become by occasion of their wealth , worse and worse , according ●s Pharao , Saul , and Ieroboam did , you might haue some colour to defend it : but this being so , much better it were , to be vnto vertue a poore slaue , then to be a rich freeman to the world : since the worldly man , while he fol●oweth attentiuely his worldlines , doth togeather with his worldly Pride loose God , togeather with his worldly Enuie loose his neyghbour , and togeather with his worldly Wealth loose himselfe : making a false shew therby to haue in him that vertue which he hath not , and ●herby couering withall those vices which he hath , because he is ashamed of them . And yet for all this , he is not able if he would , to rid himselfe of his worldlines , ●ntill he become so bare againe , as when into the world ●e entred first ▪ and men , like as if all before had byn but a dreame , he may well resemble himselfe vnto Ionas , who when he fell a sleep , he was couered with a greene Yuy , ●nd when he waked , the Yuy being dried vp , he was left wide open in the parching sunne , ●on . cap. 4. Therfore ●ee in what vnstable state , the meere worldly man doth ●ue and wallow in the world , when he thinketh himselfe ●t the best : though yet still it cannot be denied , but that , as hath byn said before , all whatsoeuer is in the world , either flying in the aire , or swimming in the water , or residing vpon the earth , God , indeed , hath made them all for man , and all to be vnder his rule and commaundement , as Lord and Maister of all .

Then if God at leastwise , who made this terrestriall world , haue appointed man , as you say , to be Maister and Lord of all , what reason is it , that he should not loue the same ?

Let Fauonius answere to this if he will , for that it most of all concerneth himselfe , I hauing already performed so much as my promise was .

I haue not ( quoth Fauonius ) directly said as yet , that the World is not to be loued , but that the excesse in louing it is to be hated .

By this which now you say , you affirme neither the one , nor the other , since whatsoeuer is indifferent betwixt Loue and Hate , cannot properly be said either to be loued , or hated .

Perhaps in this you deceaue your selfe , and so much the rather , because a great Deuine in his Booke of Sentences saith : That the world is both to be loued and hated ; meaning belike , that it is to be loued as the worke of the Creator , and to be hated as the instrument of temptation vnto sinne .

Your citation of Diuinity , knowing as I do of what Schoole you be , moueth me not so much , as the reason it selfe of your argument ; whereby still you would make it a sinfull thing , I perceaue , for a man to liue in the world , like a worldly man ; and yet not yong men alone , but old men also , do by their actions argue the contrary ; while as none do proue more worldly then old men themselues , who you know are the wiser sort of men .

For all your making so little accompt of my Diuinity , a daungerous point I can tell you , it is , to determine what is sinne , and what is not , by this or that mans proceeding only , be he young or old .

I speake of multitudes both of the oldest & wisest sort of men , and not of any one particuler person alone .

Let them be as old and as wise as they will , it is nether their age , nor their wit ( but some other higher mysterie ) that can keep them from straying out of the true beaten path of discipline .

Then belike old men , and the wiser sort of men , do not know what they do .

As though it were not possible for an old Wise man , sometymes to play the Foole ?

If he play the Foole in any thing , it is in this , for not to attend to the World , and to his Profit , so much as he ought to do ; considering the diuers wantes , to the which Age is dayly more , and more subiect , as Ease , Seruice , Aboundance of clothes , Extraordinary sustenance , and the like , which cannot well be had without some store of money .

Nay rather the contrary , for that the more he attendeth in his age to worldlines and Profit , the more he may be said to be ouerseene therin ; because hauing , as then , but a little while to liue , the same world which bringeth all , carryeth with it all away againe . And therfore so long as old men be moderate in their desires , and cheerfull of Nature , their age , albeit it be not accompanied with any great store of Wealth , will not be very noysome vnto them : but if they be immoderate & with all melancholy , their age wil be dolorous vnto them , notwithstanding they be rich . And not only age , but youth also it selfe , in that case , would be no lesse , because it is not the wealth , but the mind which maketh the well contented , either youth or age .