An antidote against popery confected out of scriptures, fathers, councels, and histories. Wherein dialogue-wise are shewed, the points, grounds, and antiquitie of the Protestant religion; and the first springing vp of the points of popery: together with the Antichristianisme thereof. Being alone sufficient to inable any Protestant of meane capacitie, to vnderstand and yeeld a reason of his religion, and to incounter with and foyle the aduersary. By Iohn Mayer, B.D. and pastor of the Church of little Wratting in Suffolke.

AN ANTIDOTE AGAINST POPERY . In way of a Dialogue : Wherein , The Speakers are Saul or Paul , Sergius Paulus , and Elymas . Saul .

NOble Sir , because you are an elect vessell , the Lord hath sent mee to publish the true Religion vnto you , by the imbracing , and right professing whereof you may be saued .

Sergius Paulus .

What is that religion ?

Saul .

It is the Christian Religion ; taught , and maintained in the reformed , or Protestant Churches .

Serg. Paul .

Wherein standeth this religion ?

Saul .

The maine points of it concerne either faith , or practice in exercising the parts of Gods worship .

Serg. Paul .

Concerning faith , what doth the Protestant Church hold ?

Saul .

I will not rehearse all contained in the Symboll or Creed of the Apostles , about which it is agreed by all that beare the name of Christians ; but onely those particulars , about which there is difference .

Serg. Paul .

I am also resolued by that which I haue heard from thee heretofore , of all that is generally held by all Christians , that there is one God , which made , and gouerneth the whole world , who is a spirit , incomprehensible , and comprehending all things : and one Lord Iesus Christ , perfect God , and perfect Man , who dyed for our sinnes , &c. Tell me therefore onely , what particular points of faith are held by the Protestants , but contradicted by others ?

Saul .

The first is , that God onely is to be beleeued in , and not any man of what title or succession so euer , nor yet any company of men called the Church : Rom. 3.4 . because God only is true and all men are lyers : neither doth the Apostles Creed propound any other to beleeued in but God onely .

Serg. Paul .

What , doe you say that the Church is not to be beleeued in ? Is it not expressely said , I beleeue in the holy Catholike Church ?

Saul .

It is indeed said I beleeue the holy Catholike Church , but not in it ; because the Catholike Church , that is , the Church of God being in all ages , and ouer-spreading all parts of the world , is an obiect of faith , and not of sense ; forasmuch as by sense and experience wee cannot know this , but by faith onely , as wee apprehend the Communion of Saints , forgiuenesse of sinnes , and the life euerlasting . Of all which the same is said that of the Catholike Church , seeing there is but one Verbe , I beleeue , after which they all follow . So that if hence it might bee gathered , that the Church is to bee beleeued in , it may likewise be gathered , that the remission of sinnes , and the refurrection of the body , &c. are to bee beleeued in , which were absurd .

Serg. Paul .

What is the second particular point ?

Saul .

The second is , that Christ Iesus is our onely Mediator and Aduocate with the Father in Heauen ; neither is it lawfull to come to the Father by any other but by him , and in his name alone : and that the Saints departed out of this life know not of our seeking their mediation , if wee should craue it .

Serg. Paul .

Is the Lord so strict , that by him wee are thus restrained from all Mediators in Heauen , and yet directeth vs to craue the helpe of others vpon earth to pray for vs ?

Saul .

It is the voice of Gods own Spirit . There is one God , 1. Tim. 2.5 . and one Mediator betwixt God and Man , of whom onely , and of none else mention is made sundry times ; as Ioh. 14. Ioh. 16 Rom. 8. 1 Ioh. 2. As for that direction to craue the prayers of men vpon earth , it is that by hauing mutuall help one from another , our mutuall loue might increase , which cannot be in crauing their mediation in Heauen , seeing howsoeuer our loue may increase towards them , yet theirs is already fully perfect . But to insist vpon nothing else , they cannot heare vs , as the liuing doe ; and if they heare , it is kept secret from vs : neither hath the Lord spoken one word to direct vs to them , without which , who so seeketh to them , may iustly haue the complaint taken vp against him , Ier , 14.14 . Hee runneth before he is sent .

Serg. Paul .

What is the third particular point ?

Saul .

The third is , that we are iustified and saued only by faith in Iesus Christ , and that our workes euen when we are at the best , merit nothing towards our eternall glorification . For to this effect speaketh the Lord . Luke 17.10 . When yee haue done all that ye can , say that yee are vnprofitable seruants . And Saint Paul . A man is iustified by faith , Rom. 3.28 . without the workes of the Law .

Serg. Paul .

Is not the worke of him that hath faith then of more vertue , then his that hath none ? Is he not Christs member , and so Christs vertue his vertue , that as in Christs actions , so in his there should be merit .

Saul .

The workes of the best are of no more vertue to merit , because hee is still a seruant , and bound in duty to what hee doth , whereas merit implyeth doing more then duty requireth . And as for Christs vertue communicated vnto him , it is sufficient , that he is made thus worthy , though not his works , seeing perfect blessednesse is already fully merited by Christ for him , neither is there need of any more merit .

Serg. Paul .

Can hee be said to be iustified then that hath no workes , but resteth vpon a bare faith ?

Saul .

No by no meanes : for faith which iustifieth , worketh by loue , is liuely by workes , as the bodie by the soule . Wherefore Saint Iames writing against such a faith as is without workes , Iam. ● . 24 . saith ; A man is not iustified by faith onely , but by the workes of the Law : That is , hee is not become iust and righteous in the sight of God , that hath a single and bare faith , but proueth his faith sound by his workes . For , that he disputeth not of faith , which is the sauing grace wrought in the hearts of the Elect ; but of a common faith of which euen Deuils are capable , is plaine from the Text. For onely that common faith is the faith , of which he saith , A man is not iustified by faith onely .

Serg. Paul .

What is the fourth particular point ?

Saul .

The fourth is , that faith assureth a man without wauering or doubting of the remission of his sinnes , and of eternall saluation . Rom. 4.20 . For such was Abrahams faith . Hee doubted not through vnbeliefe , but strengthened himself in faith . And that faith which is ioyned with wauering in any man is like the waues of the Sea . Iam. 1.6 .

Serg. Paul .

This is much that man should come to know so farre what the will of God is , touching his future estate . It may be that some singular man as Abraham or the holy Apostles , might surely know by reuelation , because they had more then ordinary acquaintance with God : but for other beleeuers I cannot see , how they should know , though they may all hope well .

Saul .

There is great reason , why any faithfull person should know this , because hee hath receiued the Spirit of God , 1 Cor. 2.12 . which knoweth Gods will , euen as the spirit within a man knoweth his minde .

Serg. Paul .

But seeing euery man is apt to conceiue the best of himselfe , and naturall presumption ofttimes assureth a man of his saluation ; how shall he know that it is the spirit , whereby hee commeth to be thus assured , and not his owne partiall fantasie ?

Saul .

It is a great indignitie to the Lord , when as he hath taught vs , Rom 8.16 . that his Spirit witnesseth with our spirits that we are the children of God ; to question whether this testimonie can be knowne : for wherefore serueth the testimonie of any , if it be vnknowne . Many indeed doe through their own fault deceiue themselues , because being void of the spirit of sanctification they presume : But hee that is renued in his mind vnto holinesse , can neuer be deceiued .

Serg. Paul .

Will the Spirit alwayes abide where once he hath sanctified ? or may not a relapse to carnality and sinne , cause him to depart , that so the estate of that man , who hath beene once sanctified , through his owne default , may become as damnable or more damnable then before ? which if it may happen to be so , what certainty can any man haue ?

Saul .

He that is borne of God sinneth not , neither can be , 1 Iohn 3.9 . because he is borne of God . If I haue seemed to speake otherwise of those that haue beene enlightned and made partakers of the Holy Ghost , Heb. 6.6 . I sayd it to stirre vp to worke out saluation with feare and trembling , and not as positiuely setting down that such might fall away . Wherefore I added , I am perswaded better things of you , and such as accompany saluation , Heb. 6.9 . for God is not vnfaithfull to forget your labour and worke in the Lord . And , he that hath begun this good worke , Phil. 1.6 . will perfect is in you .

Serg. Paul .

What is the fift particular point ?

Saul .

The fift is , That the soules of the faithfull being iustified by Christ , doe immediately after their departure out of their bodies , take possession of that inheritance which he hath by his blood purchased for them ; and that there is not any punishment by a Purgatory fire to bee further endured before their comming into heauen . Luke 12. For Lazarus was caried immediately into Abrahams bosome ; and the dead that dye in the Lord are said to be blessed , Because they rest from their labours : which were not true , Reu. 14.13 . if they had more misery yet to passe through , rather greater then any already past .

Serg. Paul .

But then thy selfe hast taught , 1 Cor. 3.11 . that euery one must be tryed in the fire , after which , he whose worke abideth shall be rewarded .

Saul .

Thou art vtterly mistaken : for I neuer taught that euery man must be tryed by the fire , but euery mans worke ; concerning which it may be doubted here , euen as of mettall before it commeth to the fire : but at the last day , which shall be a time of fire and burning flames , it will plainly appeare , what solid or chaffie doctrine any man hath built vpon the true foundation Christ , because the righteous Iudge of the whole world comming in person , will lay euery thing open as it is . They are very inconsiderate therefore that take this as spoken of persons , it being altogether besides my purpose there to speake of any but builders , or of any paine by them to be suffered after death for the more clarifying of them from sinne : but onely of the difference of their acceptance before God at the last , as they haue beene solid or sleighty in their building ; that golden Doctors of the Church might be incouraged , and the chaffie terrified , as being like , if they would not build better , to come into great perill at the last .

Serg. Paul .

What is the fixt particular point ?

Saul .

The sixt is , that when any are departed out of this life , we that suruiue can doe nothing auailable to their saluation , by offering vp any prayers , almes , or sacrifice . Because as the rich man being dead , Luke 16.26 . it was said , they that would come from thence could not : so we beleeue , that there is no remouing of soules from woe to blisse , but as the tree falleth , so it lyeth . 2 Sam 12. And therefore , as Dauid prayed for his child being aliue , but when it was dead , ceased so to doe : in like manner we pray for the sicke , as being yet capable of mercy , but if they be dead , we cease from praying any more , being assured , that to pray now is no more deuotion , but superstition , sauoring more of violent affection , then of right reason .

Serg. Paul .

What is the seuenth particular point ?

Saul .

The seuenth is , that the Sacrament of the Lords Supper ought to bee administred to all the people in both kinds , and that it is a Sacrament consisting of two parts , the thing signifying , and the thing signified ; and not a sacrifice of Christs very body and blood there substantially present , as when he was crucified vpon the Crosse , iterated againe by the Priest to as great auaile , as when he suffered for vs . For this were not to remember Christ absent in the flesh , but to bring him backe againe to the death tenne thousand times ouer , and to make a miracle the obiect of faith , when as the proper end of miracles is to helpe vs to beleeue things inuisible , themselues being alwayes visible and sensible .

Serg. Paul .

Is not the Lord then to be beieeued , who saith , This is my body ?

Saul .

Yes by all meanes , but as in other speeches wee must not looke so much to the letter as to the sense ( as when he saith , I am the Vine , I am the Doore , I am the Way ; Iohn ●5 . 1 . in all which hee is figuratiue ) so here taking the speech as it is meant , we beleeue it with all our hearts , that the bread is Christs body to the faithfull receiuer , and is thus called , because by it Christ is exhibited and receiued indeed .

Serg. Paul .

What is the eighth particular point ?

Saul .

The eighth point is , that in Baptisme there is true and certaine remission of sinnes to all repentant and faithfull persons , but not an abolition of naturall corruption : for that remaineth still in the baptized , to intice , Iam. 1 14. Gal. 5.17 . Rom. 7.23 . and to draw to actuall sinning , in so much that the regenerate cannot doe what they would , nor yet I my selfe , for I find in mee the law of my members rebelling against the law of my mind , and leading mee captiue to the law of sinne .

Serg. Paul .

What is the ninth particular point ?

Saul .

The ninth is , that these two Sacraments are all the Sacraments of the New Testament , because the Lord Iesus ordained these , and none of the other fiue , which by some are added to make vp the number seuen . For a sacrament is Gods seale , and so properly to be appointed by him , who alone hath the power ouer that which is sealed vp hereby .

Serg. Paul .

What is the tenth particular point ?

Saul .

The tenth point is , that the best are not so perfectly righteous in this life , neither can any attaine to such perfection in keeping Gods Lawes , but that they are still much faulty : for in many things wee sinne all : and , Iam. 3.2 . 1 Iohn 1.8 . If wee say that we haue no sinne , we deceiue our selues , and there is no truth in vs .

Serg. Paul .

What ? doth Christ then command vs things impossible ? for he biddeth vs be perfect , Mat. 5.48 . Phil. 3.15 . as our Father which is in heauen is perfect ; and thou thy selfe hast said , so many of vs as be perfect , let vs be thus minded .

Saul .

There is a twofold perfection , of parts , and of degrees : perfection of parts , is when a man hath not onely one grace , or a few graces , but all graces : perfection of degrees is when a man hath attained such a measure of grace , as that there is in him no imperfection or want at all . Of the former the Lord speaketh , that wee should loue not onely friends , but also enemies , and exercise benignitie to all , and not of the other . Againe , there is a perfection of sinceritie , and a perfection of sanctitie , of the former of which onely I spake , and not of the latter ; for I had immediately before acknwoledged my selfe not perfect in that sense .

Serg. Paul .

What is the eleuenth particular point ?

Saul .

The eleuenth point is , that mans will is so corrupted euer since the fall of Adam , as that hee cannot desire to be conuerted , or thinke a thought tending to conuersion : but of his owne will , he is caried onely to euill , till that God of his grace changeth his will by putting a new heart and spirit into him . Gen. 6.5 . 2 Cor. 3.5 . Phil. 2.13 . For , all the imaginations of mans heart are onely euill continually : and , we are not able to thinke a good thought as of our selues , but it is God that worketh in vs the will and the deed of his owne good pleasure .

Serg. Paul .

Why then are we bidden to turne from sinne , to repent , and beleeue the Gospell ? and why is it vsed as an argument of iust iudging , How oft would I haue gathered you together and ye would not ? if they could doe no otherwise ?

Saul .

Wee are bidden to turne , to shew that the Lord will not turne vs without our being willing , and by thus calling vpon vs , he worketh a willingnesse , in such as bee elected : and if any notwithstanding are still hardened , and finally damned , the cause is not in God , who is tyed to no man , but in the corruption of their owne will , brought in by mans owne default , when at the first it was not so .

Serg. Paul .

What is the twelfth particular point ?

Saul .

The twelfth point is , that mariage is free for all men , and that none ought to be debarred from it : but if any can containe , they are to bee exhorted to vse this gift , that they may be more free to serue God , not being intangled with so much worldly businesse , as they which haue wife and children . For mariage is honorable amongst all men : Heb. 13.4 . 1 Tim 4 3. and it is a doctrine of Deuils forbidding to marry ; yea the Apostles themselues were maried men , and I might haue vsed the same libertie also , neither doth the Lord approue it to bee good for any sort of men , not to marry , Math. 19.12 . but for such onely as can containe .

Serg. Paul .

If mariage bringeth worldly incombrances , and the Ministers of the Gospell had need to enioy all freedome , that they may the better attend vpon their office , it seemeth , that the vnmaried are rather to bee preferred , if a sufficient number of such may be had : and if any bee therefore willing to liue alwaies single , that they may be the more fit for this seruice , it is no forbidding of mariaege to receiue onely such to holy Orders . Againe , though mariage be lawfull , and a mans companying with his wife be no sinne , yet it disableth him for a time to communicate in such things , as wherein holy persons onely haue libertie , as to eate of the Shew-bread . Abiathar telleth Dauid , 1 Sam. 21.4 . that if they had not lately companied with women they might eate of it , and the Priests vnder the Law , when their course came to serue in the Temple , liued apart from their wiues , as appeareth by the example of Zachary . Luk. 1.23 .

Saul .

If any sufficient and fit for life and learning , hauing the gift of continencie liue single , it is not to bee doubted , but that they are to be preferred : but because this gift is very rare , and for preferment men will take vpon them that , which they haue no abilitie vnto , to admit onely such into holy Orders , is in effect to forbid mariage to some , and damnable , as of the Deuill , as hath been already shewed . Yea it is a maruell , that they which pretend the Apostolicall title so much , should bee so plainely against the Apostle , who saith ; Let a Bishop be the Husband of one Wife . 1 Tim. 3. Neither are they that inforce themselues to a single life , but want the gift , the more free , but rather much more troubled , seeing lust is an hundreth times more incombring , then any domesticall troubles of the maried . And lastly , if it bee a good reason against the mariage of Priests , that companying with women makes them vnfit to partake of the Holy Bread for a time , it is good also against the mariage of any Christian man , who is now also to partake of this bread , as well as the Priest . No more therefore can be hence concluded , but that all should abstaine from companying with their wiues against the time of communicating , as against the time of fasting & Prayer . For so I haue elsewhere directed . Defraud not one another , 1. Cor. 7 5. except it be by consent for a time , that ye may giue your selues to fasting and Prayer , and come together againe .

Serg. Paul .

What is the thirteenth particular point ?

Saul .

The thirteenth point is , that the holy Scriptures , that is , the canonicall bookes of the Old and New Testament , are alone sufficient for saluation , neither are any other either Apochryphall Writings , or vnwritten Traditions of like authoritie , but onely so far forth to be receiued , as they agree with the contents of these Bookes . For it is plainely expressed , that though Iesus did and spake many things more , then are written , yet these things are written , that wee might beleeue , and beleeuing haue eternall life . Ioh. 20.31 . Gal. 1 8. And if we , or an Angell from Heauen , bring any other Gospell , let him bee accursed . We that are the Apostles of Christ haue euer submitted our doctrine to bee examined by the written Word , and therefore , Act. 17.11 . if any thing be pretended to haue been taught by vs by word of mouth , or by any that haue followed vs , not consonant to the written Word , it is without doubt to bee reiected .

Serg. Paul .

It is no where written , that the Lords day is to bee kept holy in stead of the old Sabbath , nor that infants are to bee baptized , nor that the Lords Supper is to bee receiued in the morning , or at the Church , or by women as well as by men , and yet these things are necessarie .

Saul .

These are agreeable to the written Word , and therefore good reason , that they should bee obserued : but this maketh nothing for vnwritten traditions contrary to the Word of God , or for the authoritie of any , that are without ground here .

Serg. Paul .

The Scriptures are obscure , and therefore alledged euen by the vilest Heretikes , so that if they onely be receiued , it seemeth , that there will be nothing to patronize the truth , more then errour . It is not therefore necessarie to take them with the sense receiued by the Church , that wee may hold aright , and be saued ?

Saul .

Many places of Scripture are plaine , and easie to be vnderstood ; namely , so many , as doe set forth the Articles of our faith , Gods holy will and commandements , and the doctrine of Prayer , and worshipping God , which is all necessarie to be knowne vnto saluation ; so that herein a Christian of ordinarie vnderstanding , needeth not to depend vpon the sense of others , but immediately vpon the Word of God . In places more obscure , the best Doctors of the Church haue alwayes differed ; and therefore euen herein Christian people are not tyed to the sense of any , but to that , which is most agreeable to the truth , plainely set forth in some other place .

Serg. Paul .

If all haue iudgement in the sense of Gods Word , then it seemeth that none are to bee debarred from reading the Scriptures , for feare of falling into errour by so doing : whereas it is plaine , that ignorant persons are peruerted sometimes by the scriptures themselues . 2. Pet. 3.16 . For , there are many places hard to be vnderstood , which the ignorant and vnstable peruert to their owne damnation .

Saul .

Nothing can be more against the minde of Christ , then to debarre the people from reading , and hearing the Scriptures read in a knowne tongue . For hee hath bidden , Search the Scriptures , for therein yee looke to finde eternall life . Ioh 5.39 . The danger that some fall into hereby is otherwise to bee prouided against : viz. by diligent preaching , and opening the sense .

Serg. Paul .

But is not the Church all in all to Christian people . Haue they not the Scriptures from the Church ? and do they not by the Church come to know , that they are the Word of God ? and therefore howsoeuer the Church shall order the reading and setting forth of the Scriptures , is it not to be held to be done very well ?

Saul .

It is not to bee denied , but that as the Woman of Samaria brought the people there to the knowledge of Christ , so we are brought by the Church , at the first , to know the Scriptures to be the Word of God : but as the same people said vnto her , after that Christ had taught them : Ioh 4.42 . now we beleeue , not because of thy words , but because we haue heard him our selues : So Christian people receiuing the Word into their hearts , doe not beleeue any more because of the Church , but because the Word it selfe working vpon their consciences perswadeth them , that it is the Word of God . And as it gaue the being at the first vnto the Church , so the Church is to bee ordered thereby , as by the superiour , and not to order it , as an inferiour .

Serg. Paul .

What is the fourteenth particular point ?

Saul .

The fourteenth point is , that Christ onely is the supreme head and foundation of his Church , neither hath any one man , nor ought to haue superioritie ouer all others in spirituall matters , in all Countries and Nations , being as it were a common Rocke , whereupon all may stay themselues , nothing doubting , but that cleaning to him , they cleaue to Christ , 1 Cor. 3 9. and are free from errour . For , none can lay any other foundation , sauing that which is laid , Iesus Christ . If vpon any other the Church be founded , it is not vpon one , but vpon all the Apostles alike , Ephes. 2.20 Gal. 2.9 . and the Prophets too : if vpon any as more principall they are three , Iames , Cephas , and Iohn , who seemed to be Pillars . If a power spiritually to rule by opening , and shutting , binding , and loosing , be committed to any ouer all others , neither is that committed to one Peter , but to all the Apostles : Ioh. 20 23. For , whose sins ye remit , saith the Lord , they are remitted , and whose sinnes yee retaine , they are retained : and if any one hath rule ouer the world , as chiefe , it is not Peter , Gal. 2 7. but Paul : For , to Peter was committed the ministerie of the circumcision onely , which was but of one Nation ; to Paul the minister of the vncircumcision , which was of all the rest of the world .

Serg. Paul .

But of Peter the Lord saith singularly : Math. 16.16 . Thou art Peter , and vpon this Rocke will I build my Church , and to thee I giue the Keyes of the Kingdome of Heauen . And , follow me , and I will make thee a fisher of men . And againe , Peter louest thou me ? Ioh. 23. Feed my sheepe . By all which it should seemt , that howsoeuer others had power of binding and loosing too , yet he was preferred , as chiefe , and aboue all the rest , after whom such another should succeed , and so another from age to age to the worlds end . And this construction seemeth to bee verified by the vninterrupted succession of those Bishops , who challenge to be his successors , beyond all other Bishops of any other place , seeing there is no such sucression else where to be found ?

Saul .

If Peter had beene appointed ouer all , I had beene much to blame to withstand him to his face at Antioch , Gal. 2.14 . and to goe on in mine office without seeking allowance and aduice from him . I doe not therefore acknowledge any chiefly intimated in Peter aboue the other Apostles , but that hee should be a most notable instrument of glorifying God , and propagating the Gospell , wherein hee should exceed the rest , being fuller of the power of the Holy Ghost , as he was fuller of zeale towards Christ . And that last committing of the sheepe and lambs to his feeding singularly , was no more then was needfull after his grosse fall by denying his Lord and Master , through which hee might for euer haue beene discouraged , had not his commission beene againe renued . It pleased our good God for his owne glory to deale alike with him , and with me , both grieuous sinners and blasphemers , that where sinne had most abounded , zeale and grace might most abound ; and whereas wee were most darkned , through scandall that might hence arise , making vs vnfit to be lights of the world , to make vs shine by miracles aboue all others , that thus no scandall to hinder the Gospell might any more appeare . And as for the succession so much gloried in , it is no true succession of Apostolicall men , but of politicall Princes , maintained by the sword , and not by the word , euen as the successors of Mahomet haue done . Of Apostlolike men there hath beene a more true succession at Constantinople , Alexandria , and Antioch .

Serg. Paul .

But if there be no supreame power vpon earth , how shall vnity be maintained in the Church , seeing diners men will be of diners minds ? and in case of difference about matter of faith , who shall be Iudge to end it ? if no one man , how shall it come to an end ? or hath the Lord left his Church in such a miserable case , as that she must needs broile in contentions without end ?

Saul .

There was no supreame in the Primitiue Church , and yet they are said to haue beens all together with one mind ; Act. 2.46 . the Spirit which is the Author of vnity , shall keepe the true Church in vnity , though there be no visible head ouer all . And as for differences that arise , wee haue an exemplary direction to meet in Councell : Acts 15. Where being free liberty for any learned member to speake , it is not to bee doubted , but that the assistance of the Holy Ghost being inuocated , after reasonable debating of things controuerted , all shall bee swayed to hearken vnto and determine with one eminent man , as they did with Iames . Vers 22. If not , but as in the time of Arrianisme more are for error then for the truth , it must be borne as a crosse , till the Lord will be entreated to giue the truth the victory againe , as he did then after certaine yeres . And thus I haue related all the chiefe points of the faith maintained by the Protestant Church , so plaily founded vpon the word of God , as that if in any of them there be error , we may cry out with the Prophet , Ier. 20.7 . and say , If we be deceiued ( O God ) thou hast deceiued vs . There be many points more , but because they will better come vnder those that concerne practice , I will refer them thither .

Serg. Paul .

What are the points concerning practice ?

Saul .

First , as we hold that God onely is to be beleeued in , so we make all our prayers to him onely , vtterly refusing to pray to Angels or Saints departed , how gracious soeuer they may seeme to be with the Lord : And herein wee haue warrant from the word of God , who saith , Psal. 50.14 . Call vpon mee in the time of trouble , and I will heare and deliuer thee . Thus all the faith full , whose practice is recorded in holy Scriptures , haue alwayes done , neither hath any euer called vpon any other .

Serg. Paul .

Did not Iaacob pray to the Angell that was with him in all his peregrination , Gen. 48.16 . that he would blesse the two sons of Ioseph , Ephraim and Manasseh , when he said , God before whom my fathers did walke , the God , which fed me all my life long vnto this day , the Angell , which redeemed mee from all euill , blesse the ●ads , &c.

Saul .

The Angell named here , is none other but the Lord Iesus : for where doe we reade of any other Redeemer ? If he had meant an Angell , as the word is commonly vnderstood , he would haue said Angels , and not an Angell , for at all times of danger mention is made of the Angels appearing to him , as both in his iourney towards Padan Aram , Gen. 28.10 . Gen. 32.1 . and in his returne from thence . Onely hee , to whom his deliuerance from Esau is to be imputed , wrestled with him alone , of whom the Text speaketh so plainly , as that it is most certaine he was the Lord . If Iaacob should haue prayed to an Angell , how farre an Angell would haue beene from accepting of it , appeareth in the example of Iohn and Daniel , who were both forbidden to worship an Angell .

Serg. Paul .

What is the second point in practice ?

Saul .

Secondly , because God is a Spirit , which cannot be expressed by any similitude , wee abhorre the vse of any image or similitude in diuine worship : yea we refraine altogether from setting forth the diuine Maiesty by any image . For , both Moses chargeth the people , Deur. 4.15 . that they make no image , because they saw none in the day that the Lord spake to them ; Esay 40. and the Prophet Esay speaketh of it as a thing impossible to represent God , who is infinite , by a finite resemblance ; and Hahakkuk plainly calleth images teachers of lyes . Hab. 2.18 .

Serg. Paul .

But God hath sometime assumed a shape vnto himselfe , as to Daniel he appeared like an old man , at Christs baptisme the Holy Ghost appeared in the likenesse of a Doue . Why may he not then be thus pictured and set forth ?

Saul .

The precepts of God , and not his actions , ought to be a direction to vs ; so that if he hath forbidden to make an image of God , it will bee no good plea to alledge how hee hath sometime appeared , if we presume thus to picture him . Besides , all images made by man are dead things , whereas the resemblances which God hath at any time appeared by haue had life and motion . And such a picture of God is any huing man , rather then a dead and dumb image . And lastly , these resemblances were not exhibited to bee worshipped , but onely to expresse in vision , what the Lord would haue his people to vnderstand .

Serg. Paul .

An image putteth a man in mind of God , who is apt otherwise to be caried away with by-thoughts .

Saul .

Shall man take vpon him to bee wiser then God ; when hee hath commanded to make no image , but to worship him in spirit , what it is in effect but to instruct him ? What wilt thou , that no image be made , but onely that the minde be fixed vpon thee in Prayer : thou doest not so aduisedly herein , because mens minds are ready to bee drawne away if they haue nothing to behold . It were much better therefore for them to haue some image to keepe the minde from wandring , and to stirre vp deuotion . Oh intolerable arrogancie , that man should dare thus to correct the precepts of his Maker .

Serg. Paul .

Doth the command of God touch Images , or rather Heathen Idols , which are representations of false gods , which hee forbiddeth to haue in the first command : and then to make images of them in the second ?

Saul .

Indeed , some are much deluded hereby , thinking that their image-making is throughly iustified thus . But silly men that they are , they doe little attend the vehement inuectiues of the Prophets , against such as attempted by image , to represent the True God , both because it is impossible , and because it is the way to let in much corruption in the worship of God .

Serg. Paul .

It seemeth , that the Lord was delighted in images about his Tabernacle , and Temple ; for hee appointed Cherubins to be made in most glorious maner , which had faces like yong men : so that the garnishing of Churches with images now is not a thing so vnwarrantable , and without president , as you would make it to be .

Saul .

Those images were onely for ornament , and haply for some signification , but for adoration there is not the least syllable , that tendeth to shew that they were : neither did they serue to resemble God , but in some sort in what state and maiestie the Lord sitteth in Heauen , attended by such glorious creatures . It cannot be gathered hence , that Churches may now bee garnished in like manner , because then they were much taught by outward things , as children in their nonage , but now being of full age , we are no more vnder beggarly and impotent rudiments . Gal. 4.9 .

Serg. Paul .

What is the third point in practice ?

Saul .

Thirdly , because the Lord Iesus hath bidden vs aske any thing in his Name ; wee pray alwayes in the name of Iesus Christ onely to the Father , flying as sacrilege , prayers vnto Saints departed . For it is the proper honour of Christ to seek vnto God by his mediation . 1 Ioh. 2.2 . If any man sinne , wee haue an aduocate with the Father , Iesus Christ the righteous . Wherefore to vse the mediation of others , it is to rob Christ of his honour . Euen as if the Prince should bid vs all , that haue suits to the King , to come to him , and he will prefer them for vs : if notwithstanding we leauing the Prince , should flocke about some Courtiers to intercede for vs .

Serg. Paul .

What is the fourth point in practice ?

Saul .

Fourthly , wee make all our prayers in a knowne tongue : for , I will pray with the spirit , 1 Cor. 14.15 . and I will pray with my vnderstanding also . It is a confusion , and no edification to vse publike seruice in a strange tongue , euen as when a trumpet maketh an imperfect sound .

Serg. Paul .

What is the fifth point in practice ?

Saul .

Fiftly , because the Lord hath forbidden vaine repetitions , Math. 6. as heathenish : we doe not place deuotion in saying ouer a multitude of prayers , but in feruent and hearty praying ; one , or a few prayers at a time , so as that our affections may be quickened , and not dulled hereby .

Serg. Paul .

What is the sixth point in practice ?

Saul .

Sixtly , wee content our selues to confesse our sinnes only to God , and hold it not necessary to confesse all things vnto the Priest , but onely for necessary reliefe of conscience , being troubled in regard of some particulars . And generally wee deny not , but acknowledge to one another , that wee are sinners , and this is all that God hath commanded . Iam. 5.16 . Confesse your sinnes one vnto another , and pray one for another .

Serg. Paul .

What is the seuenth point in practice ?

Saul .

Seuenthly , when we haue humbled our selues for our sinnes , wee doe not take vpon vs to satisfie for them by punishing our bodies with whipping , or putting on Haire-cloth , but onely by abstinence and contrition of heart , watching more carefully ouer our wayes , that wee sinne no more . For Christ hath satisfied fully for vs , by bearing in his bodie the smart due for our sins , and no more reuenge is required to be taken by vs vpon our selues : but that whereby our bodies may be beaten downe , 1 Cor. 9. and the better kept from sinning for the time to come , such as is hearty sorrow , for so the Lord hath commanded ; Ioel 2.13 . Rent your hearts and not your garments : and fasting is often called for , but doing violence to the body , by striking till the blood commeth out , is rather to imitate Baals priests , 1 King . 18. that lanched and cut their bodies in their superstitious deuotion , then to follow any approued patterne of the truely godly .

Serg. Paul .

But the wearing of sackcloth and ashes is commended by many approued examples , so that if you refuse this penance , it seemeth , that you are iustly to blame .

Saul .

Wee must not confound , but distinguish betwixt times . Vnder the Law indeed these things were required , and the washing of the body , and the bringing of a sacrifice , for expiation of sinne ; because the Lord not content with inward contrition , would haue it outwardly expressed also ; such was the austeritie of the Law : but vnder the Gospel , these are remitted : for when the Publicans and people asked Iohn , Luke 3.9 . exhorting to workes of repentance , what they should doe , he omitteth all these things , and speaketh onely of ceasing from sinne , and doing good ; neither is girding with sackcloth , &c. any where else mentioned in the New Testament , such is the lenitie of the Gospel . Hereupon it is said , that the burthen of the Law was heauy , and such at neither we nor our fathers were able to heare : Act. 15.10 . Math. 11.28 . but of the yoake of the Gospell , the Lord saith : My yoake is easie , and my burden light .

Serg. Paul .

But are not some sinnes veniall ● for which Christ did not , neither needed to suffer ? and ought not wee then by these workes of penance to satisfie for them ?

Saul .

It is an imaginaly distinction , no where founded in the Word of God : Iam. 2.10 . Math. 5.19 . for here all sinne is condemned as mortall . He that obserueth all the Law , and yet faileth in one point , it guilty of all . He that breaketh the least of Gods commandements , and teacheth others to doe so , shal be counted the least in the Kingdome of Heauen . And what lesser sin can there be then an idle word , Math. 12.36 . Mark . 7.21 . and yet hereof account shall bee giuen at the day of Iudgement . And what lesser then euill thoughts , and yet these defile a man , and so debatre him from heauen , forasmuch as no vncleane thing shall enter therein .

Serg. Paul .

What is the eighth point of practice ? Apoc. 22.

Saul .

Eighthly , we hold that we may as acceptably worship God in one place , as in another ; namely , in our priuate worship one alone , neither haue wee need to goe on pilgrimage to any remote place , where the bones of any Saint , or Reliques are kept , or Church or Chappell in any respect supposed to be more holy , as though wee should the rather obtaine Gods indulgence , in respect of our sinnes , by thus doing . For when thou wilt pray , saith the Lord , Math. 6.6 . enter into thy closet . And for publique assembling to the worship of God , any consecrate place is as good as Ierusalem , or the Mount , where Iacob was wont to worship . For all such dignitie of one place aboue another , is plainly by Christ himselfe abrogated , saying : The houre commeth , when neither at Ierusalem , Ioh. 4.20 . nor in this Mountaine men shall worship the Father .

Serg. Paul .

What is the ninth point of practice ?

Saul .

Ninthly , if any bee sicke , wee pray for them , but anoint them not , Iam. 5. because although direction bee giuen thus to doe , yet consideration must be had of the times , anointing was then accompanied with healing , through a singular vertue vpon the Presbyterie , for the more confirmation of the Gospel , in the first beginnings thereof , but this hath ceased long agoe , and therefore if it were now vsed , it would bee a naked ceremonie , without benefit to the diseased .

Serg. Paul .

What is the tenth point of practice ?

Saul .

Tenthly , we doe not vse crossing or Holy Water , or any the like Ceremonies to blesse vs therewith : because we doe not finde , that they were instituted by God , but inuented by men giuen to superstition , and therefore can haue no further vertue , then such are able to giue vnto them .

Serg. Paul .

But by experience it hath beene diuers times confirmed , that there is vertue in these things : for the diuell hath beene often hereby chaced away .

Saul .

If any such effect hath followed vpon the applying of them , it hath beene through collusion of the Deuill , giuing way for a further aduantage : namely , that superstitious people might be the more confirmed , in their confidence in such impotent ceremonies , and be drawne away from God , who onely is able to curbe Satan ; that thus they might lye the more open vnto him .

Serg. Paul .

What is the eleuenth point of practice ?

Saul .

Eleuenthly , we do not vse any deceit , by keeping any thing written in the canonicall Scriptures , from the knowledge of the people , or by inuenting stories of things neuer done , to stirre vp deuotion in them . For whatsoeuer the pretence may be in thus doing , wee are sure that God hath pronounced them accursed , Deut. 4. that take ought from his lawes , or adde any thing thereunto .

Serg. Paul .

What is the twelfth point of practice ?

Saul .

In the twelfth place , we doe not commend wilfull pouertie , as a point of deuotion , that is , for a man to giue away all that he hath to the poore , so that himselfe is constrained to begge for reliefe . For we are not to giue so , as that we may be grieued , and others eased , 2 Cor. 8.13 . 1 Cor. 16.1 . but euery man as God hath blessed him , and as he can spare .

Serg. Paul .

Christ was poore , and so were the Apostles , and vnto him that asked , what he was yet to doe , it is prescribed , if thou wilt be perfect , Math. 19 21. goe sell all that which thou hast , and giue it to the poore : and according to this direction , they that had possessions , Act. 4. sold them , and brought the price , and laid it at the Apostles feet . And lastly , the poore are pronounced blessed , and woe is to the rich , and full .

Saul .

Christ was borne poore , the Disciples forsooke all to attend vpon their Apostolicall Office , which necessarily required●t , and to this Office was that Yong man called , who was bidden to sell and giue to the poore ; so that what is said to him bindeth not but in the like case : viz. when any man is called , the necessitie of the Church requiring it , in an Apostolike manner , to trauell through diuers countreys to set forth the Gospell . Touching that example of selling and laying downe the price at the Apostles feet , it was extraordinary , and only of such as ioyned themselues with the Apostles , for the publike seruice of the Church , and therefore soone ceased , as appeareth , Act. 5.13 . Lastly , the poore simply are not pronounced blessed , nor the rich woful : for he saith onely , Blessed are ye poore : namely , Luke 6.20 . which haue left all to follow , and serue me in this Office : and , Wee to you that are rich , that is , preferre your riches so , as that like the Yong man , ye refuse to leaue them , to follow me , though hereunto inuited .

Serg. Paul .

What is the thirteenth point of practice ?

Saul .

In the thirteenth place , we doe not vow perpetuall Virginitie , as supposing it a point of more perfection ; nor to liue in Cels , Wildernesses , or Monasteries , there to spend our time separate from the world , in the nabit , and according to the rules prescribed by the instituters of such Orders , glorying to be of their Order . For wee ought not to vow any thing , but what we can performe , but this wee cannot , because it is not giuen to all . And for Monasticall liuing , it is plainely repugnant to this . 1 Cor. 7.20 . Let euery man continue in that calling , wherein God hath called him . And to be named after any man , I haue by the Spirit of God condemned as carnall , in the persons of those at Corinth , that held some of Paul , 1 Cor. 3. some of Cephas , &c.

Serg. Paul .

What is the fourteenth point of practice ?

Saul .

In the fourteenth place , we keep Holy-dayes in remembrance of Christ , the blessed Virgin Mary , and of the holy Apostles , as being set forth in the Word of God , for most notable and holy instruments of our best good : but other dayes dedicated to others we obserue not : partly , lest the people should be ouermuch burdened with dayes ; and partly , because we are vncertaine of the worth of such men , or the truth of such things , as in remembrance whereof these obseruations were taken vp .

Serg. Paul .

What is the fifteenth point of practice ?

Saul .

In the fifteenth place , wee keepe fasts of Lent , and Holy-dayes-eues , &c. according to the ancient custome of the Church of God , but wee reckon not this to be any part of Gods seruice , but a meanes , the better to enable vs against the flesh , and to the spirituall sernice . Neither doe wee thinke the conscience defiled at such times by cating flesh : for nothing that entreth into a man defileth him , Mark . 7.20 . but onely that they which doe thus , are worthily fined , for neglecting wholesome constituted Orders When there is any particular occasion to fast , wee abstaine from all food , from morning till night .

Serg. Paul .

What is the sixteenth point of practice ?

Saul .

In the sixteenth place , we all both Clergie and Laitie are subiect to our King as Supreme ; and to his Officers , whom we are bound to obey vnder him : and if he doth tyrannize ouer vs , if hee be an Hereticke , or setter vp of Heresies , we resist not by force , neither by treachery seeke to take his life away ; but we exhort him , and pray for him , and so leaue him to the Lord , who onely is aboue him , and can justly chastise him . For thus Dauid behaued himselfe towards Saul , and I haue plainely set it downe as a charge to all ; Rom. 13.1 . 1 Tim. 2. Let euery soule be subiect to the higher powers : and let prayers be made for all , especially for Kings , and Gouernours , &c.

Serg. Paul .

What is the seuenteenth point of practice ?

Saul .

In the seuenteenth place , wee proceed in that simple manner in our baptizing , that our Sauiour Christ hath prescribed , vsing neither Milke , nor Honey , nor Spittle , nor Salt , nor exorcising , but onely Water , in the name of the Father , the Sonne , and the Holy Ghost , and certaine prayers , and sitting admonitions before and after . For all other things were brought in since , and so are humane and superstitious .

Serg. Paul .

But ye vse a speciall vestiment , and the signe of the Crosse in your baptizing ?

Saul .

Wee doe so indeed , but not as any necessary appurtenances of Baptisme ; but the Surplice is put on for order as a distinguishing garment ; and the Crosse is made after baptisine ended , without opinion of any vertue in it , onely to figure out what a base profession in the opinion of the world we betake our selues vnto , we being yet no whit ashamed of the ignominie of Christs Crosse , but reioycing to beare euery man the Crosse , which he shall meet withall for his sake .

Serg. Paul .

What is the eighteenth point of practice ?

Saul .

In the eighteenth place , we receiue the Sacrament of the Lords Supper with all ●●●erence vpon nor knees , but after this ended , we do not keep the Holy bread remaining to be caried about in Procession , as hauing vertue to any other vse , but onely to seed the soules of such as are present . If any be sicke , which desire it , other bread and Wine are taken ; and being by the Minister consecrated , as in publike it is giuen to the sicke , and to some others with him . Moreouer , we vse common Bread and Wine , and not little Cakes of vnleauened bread to be giuen whole , being first lifted vp in the sight of the people , that they may worship them . For this vse onely of this blessed Sacrament haue we from our Lord Christ , and to bring in any other vse , is to presume to bee wiser then he , and so to become starke fooles . And thus I haue faithfully related the practice of the Reformed or Protestant Church .

Serg. Paul .

But why is this called the Reformed Church ? hath Christ any more Churches but one ?

Saul .

No : the Church of Christ is but one , wheresoeuer dispersed in all the world : but this Church partly through the ambition and couetousnesse of the Popes of Rome , and of the rest of the chiefe of the Clergie , and partly through blind deuotion , became very corrupt , both in doctrine , and manner of seruing God , wherein hauing lyon many yeares to the griefe of the truely zealous and wise , who did what they could or durst to rectifie things againe , but without effect , at length ( though very loth so to doe ) many without feare of bodily danger separated themselues from all society and communion with those , that still adliered to these curruptions , teaching and holding as hath be one before deelared ; who notwithstanding the hot brunts of persecution , which they met withall , increased dayly ; whole Countreys and Kingdomes , being in a short time by Gods prouidence ioyned vnto them . And because of this reformation , about which they made then protestation , that simply for conscience towards God , and his Truth , and onely according to his written Word they thus proceeded , they were called the Reformed or Protestant Church : others willfully cleauing to their corruptions still , and to the Pope and Roman Clergy , the chiefe maintainers hereof , were called the Church of Rome , or the Popish Church , or as they needes will haue it , Roman Catholikes .

Serg. Paul .

Then it seemeth , that the Church anciently one , is now become two , the one opposite to the other . Or , are they both one Church still , but diuided for their contrary opinions , and manners in many things ?

Saul .

As the Church of Christ hath beene , so it still is , and euer shall bee one , and not two ; for it is Christ ; Spouse , which is onely one . I doe not therefore acknowledge , but aduisedly deny the Church of Rome to be a true Church of Christ : Reu. 3.1 . As the Church of Sardis had a name to be aline , but was dead , so it may hold this name still , but is indeed a very carkasse without a soule , by reason of the grosse errours therein maintained and practised : for truth is the life of the Church . The reformed Church then is the onely true Church , neither may we returne againe to them vpon paine of damnation : but they must and shall come to vs at the last ; for truth is stronger then all .

Serg. Paul .

But the maine truth is still maintained in the Church of Rome : viz. That Iesus is the Sonne of God : and hast not thou thy selfe taught , 1. Cor 3. that who so buildeth vpon the foundation Christ Iesus , though but hay or stubble , which shall hurne , yet himselfe shall escape as it were through the fire ? What is this , but that so Christ bee cleaued vnto , no erroneous opinions or practice in the seruice of God shall damne the soule .

Saul .

The Church of Rome teacheth indeed generally this truth touching Christ Iesus , but in the particular explication of what they hold hereabout , they doe plainly raze this foundation , and so their building is not vpon the foundation Christ described in the New Testament , but imagined in their owne braines . Againe , although the foundation were rightly held , yet they are builders onely that shall be saued , not destroyers or demolishers , as they of the Church of Rome are .

Serg. Paul .

Wherein doe they raze the foundation Christ ?

Saul .

In that they doe not rely vpon Christ only for saluation and grace . For this is the property of a foundation , to beare vp all the building alone , if it be the only foundation , as I haue taught , that Christ is . If then the building rest partly vpon some other foundation , this is in effect razed , because though this be sound , yet the other vpon which it partly standeth being deceitfull and vnsound , when that shall faile , the whole building cannot but come downe .

Serg. Paul .

It seemeth then , that Christ is the foundation to them onely that rest vpon him alone ; and that they which together with him rely vpon any thing else , are in effect gone from the foundation , and so shall haue no more benefit of it , then they that hold not Christ at all . Can you proue the Roman Catholikes to be such ?

Saul .

There is nothing more plaine to them that will vnderstand . For first , when Christ only is relyed vpon , and so made the onely soundation , his passions alone are held to be fully satisfactory for all punishments due to vs for all our sins both temporall and eternall . Secondly , all merit whereby we become worthy of saluation is held to be in him onely . Thirdly , His mediation onely to God the Father , is rested vpon to obtaine any benefit or helpe in the time of need . Fourthly , The beginning , progresse and perfection of all grace is imputed to him onely through the working of his Spirit , and nothing to a mans selfe . But the contrary to all these are maintained in the Church of Rome .

Serg. Paul .

Declare this more particularly , and first , that they rely not vpon his passions onely as fully satisfactory .

Saul .

They say that he hath satisfied for all eternall punishments in hell , but not for temporall : for these are left to vs to be satisfied for , partly here by acts of penance , and partly hereafter in purgatory . And that there are certaine lesser sinnes called veniall , for which we our selues must satisfie . Flatly contrary to Saint Iohn , who saith , 1. Ioh 1.6 . the blood of Iesus Christ cleanseth vs from all sin . And I haue taught that Christ hath redeemed vs from the curse of the Law being made a curse for vs : Gal. 3.13 . Now this curse did as well extend to temporall as eternall punishments , witnesse Moses his dilating vpon it , Deut. 28. and Leuit. 26. throughout which Chapters he sheweth that the curse comming by sinne is temporall .

Serg. Paul .

If Christ had satisfied herein for vs , were it not iniustice in God to put his to so much smart againe daily , by sickenesses , losses , ignominies , and persecutions in the world ?

Saul .

It were iniustice indeed , if our sins being forgiuen and clensed away in Christs blood , hee should still require vs to be temporally panished . Luke 23.16 . This were iust Pilates iustice . I finde no fault in this man , I will therefore scourge him , and let him goe . God forbid , that wee should once thinke the most righteous Lord to be such in his proceedings . It is to bee vnderstood therefore , that the smart imposed vpon vs here is onely either for our triall , or for our correction in loue , as parents are wont to deale with their children .

Serg. Paul .

What doe they hold touching merit ?

Saul .

That Christs death and passion alone , are not the meritorious cause of our saluation , but the blessed Virgin Mary , and the holy Apostles , and other Saints which haue suffered death for the Gospell , haue also merited for vs ; and that there is merit in the sacrifice of the Masse , extended to all both quicke and dead ; and in the workes of the regenerate through which they become worthy of heauen .

Serg. Paul .

The Saints are so neere vnto Christ , as that it seemeth to be all one to ascribe merit vnto their passions , and to hi●● if they were diuerse from him , it were to lay another foundation indeed . Hast not thou written to the same effect saying , Col. 1.24 . I fulfill therest of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body which is his Church ? And touching the Masse , and good workes of the regenerate , whatsoeuer vertue is ascribed hereunto , it tendeth the more to the magnisying of Christs merit , which is able to giue vertue to other things to m●rit also .

Saul .

These are plausible reasons indeed to d●ceiue the simple , but he which hath any vnderstanding can consider , that by the like reason the sunne , moone and starres , might safety be associated vnto God in diuine worship , for they are neere vnto him also . And for that saying of mine , if any other part of my writing , or of the whole Bible did sound to the seconding of such an acception , it might well bee taken so : but considering , that I haue plainly professed elsewhere , that Paul is nothing , and Aposlo nothing , 1. Cor. 3. Phil. 3.9 . and that Christs righteousnesse is that onely wherein I desire to bee found . Mee thinkes what I haue said to the Colossians should not be wrested so , but bee simply taken of my sufferings , in going about to doe good vnto the Church , which I call Christs sufferings , because vndergone for him , who taught me sometime , Act. 9. that the persecuting of his members was the persecuting of himselfe . Lastly , where there is any such extent of the vertue of Christs passion to make other things meritorious certaine , it is good to acknowledge and extoll it , but out of this case , as it is in the matter of the Masse , and of good workes , it is a plaine derogating from Christs merit the onely sure foundation , and a razing of it . That there is no merit in these things hath beene sufficiently shewed heretofore .

Serg. Paul .

But did not the blessed Virgin Mary merit any thing for vs by thos passions , which she had together with Christ in her soule , when he hung vpon the Crosse ?

Saul .

I am glad that you put me in mind againe to speak of this , that the abhomination of the Romish religion might the more appeare . For indeed they make her aboue all the Saints , not onely a mediatrix of intercession , but of Redemption also : affirming , that her standing by when the Lord suffered vpon the crosse , full of sorrow to be hold it , was a ioyning with him in our Redemption : and therefore , where as it is said of Christ , hee shall breake the Serpents head , they turne it she ; and whereas the Prophet saith in his person , Gen. 3. I haue troden the winepresse alone , there was no man with me , Esa. 63.3 . they say there was no man indeed , but that blessed woman : yea and so farre be the Iesuites gone in their dotage about her meriting , as that they make comparisons betwixt her milke and Christs blood , ascribing as much to the one , as to the other , as appeareth in the booke called , The Iesuits Gospell .

Serg. Paul .

Touching his mediatorship , doe they rely vpon any other Mediators ;

Saul .

Yes that they doe , for they make both the Virgin Mary , and all the Saints departed mediators vnto God for them in all their common prayers , desiring them to pray for them , and sometimes as though they had the disposing of heauen , that they would conferre vpon them the Kingdome of heauen .

Serg. Paul .

Although Christ be the onely Mediator of Redemption , yet there are more mediators of intercession , for we all must pray one for another . It seemeth therefore that this doth no more raze the foundation , then desiring the Elders of the Church to pray for vs in the time of sicknesse .

Saul .

I haue already spoken enough to shew the error of this practice . It shall suffice therefore onely to adde thus much more , that this distinction betwixt a Mediator of Redemption & of intercession in heauen is vaine : for as Christ is the onely propitiation for our sinnes , 1 Iohn 2.2 . Rom. 8.34 . so hee onely at the right hand of God maketh intercession for vs . If any else doe the like it is concealed from vs , neither are wee bidden to come by them , but altogether by the Sonne vnto the Father . Moreouer , we cannot come by any in heauen vnto God , but wee must ascribe vnto them the diuine attribute of omniscience● wherby they know all things though neuer so remote from them , which is to rob the Lord of his peculiar honour , as if Maiesty or Supreme power were ascribed to any of the kings subiects .

Serg. Paul .

Proceed new to the last point : what doe they hold touching the beginning and proceedings of Grace ?

Saul .

They teach , that there is in euery man free will , whereby hee can desire , and doe preparatiue workes vnto grace , which the Lord beholding hath mercy vpon him , and inlargeth him , being before in prison and bound as it were with chaines , and then hee becommeth able to doe according to his desire , that is , perfectly to fulfill Gods Commandements , for which he shall finally haue the reward of eternall glory bestowed vpon him .

Serg. Paul .

And haue they not good ground for this in the example of Cornelius , Act. 10. whose almes and prayers done before his conuersion were acceptable to God , so as that hereupon Peter was sons vnto him , and the holy Ghost was bestowed vpon him ?

Saul .

God had wrought in the heart of Cornelius before this , Act. 10.2 . for hee is said to haue beene a deuout man and one that feared God , which could not haue been spoken of him , if he had been a meere naturall man . Therefore from his example no good argument can be made to proue preparatiue works in naturall men . Hee had doubtlesse so much grace , and knowledge , as was incident to the faithfull before Christs comming in the flesh , onely hee wanted the knowledge of his person in particular already come , to preach which , and that withall he might receiue the holy Ghost , Peter was sent vnto him ,

Serg. Paul .

But how doth this raze the foundation Christ ?

Saul .

Because vpon Christ all our well desiring and doing doth depend . We cannot thinke a good thought as of our selues , but all our sufficiency is of God : 2. Cor. 3.5 . Ioh. 15.5 . 1. Cor. 1. Gen. 6.5 . and the Lord hath plainly said , without me ye can doe nothing , and touching a naturall man , the wisdome of God is foolishnesse vnto him , all the imaginations of his bea rt are onely euill continually . To teach that then , whereby a man shall bee brought in part to rely vpon himselfe , is in effect to disanull Christ , the alone ground of our well doing and desiring .

Serg. Paul .

I am well satisfied by this , touching your first reasen , prouing , that the Roman Church is no true Church of God , me thought you game me an hint of a further reason , in saying that buildert onely vpon the foundation Christ should be saued , and not demolishers . Can you proue the Romane Catholikes to bee demolishers ?

Saul .

You did not conceiue amisse : for this word building is very notable in the text : Now that they are not builders , but demolishers I make it plaine thus : Hee onely buildeth vpon a foundation , that erecteth somewhat vpon it , though it bee but sleighty & weake , but if standing vpon this foundation he breaketh in peeces , and disanulleth the chiefe materials of the building , he buildeth not but demolisheth . And thus doth the Roman Churh , for bearing herselfe vpon the foundation Christ , she teacheth to transgresse Gods Commandements , and to proceed contrary to his ordinances , which are the chiefe materialls of the spirituall building .

Serg. Paul .

Wherein doe they commend transgressing against Gods Lawes and Ordinances .

Saul .

In exciting the people to get them images , and to bow before them in prayer plainly against the second commandement , which they seeing into , haue therefore put this commandement out of their Catechismes : in appointing the Sacrament of Lords Supper to bee administred to the people in one kind onely against Christs institution : in forbidding the people to read the Scriptures , and commending ignorance , as the mother of deuotion , against that expresse charge , search the Scriptures : in appointing seruice in an vnknowne tongue , 1. Cor. 14. being the representation of Babel , that by reason of strange tongues could not bee built , for so hereby such an vncertaine sound is made , as that no edification commeth of it : in absoluing subiects from their allegeance to their lawfull Prince : in dispensing with treasons , murthers , periuries , and incestuous mariages : in maintaining lying , vnder the names of equiuocations and mentall reseruations : in condemning mariage in some sort of people more then fornication : in exempting the Clergie from the power of the ciuill Magistrate , and setting vp the Pope aboue all both spirituall and temporall things : all which who knoweth not to be flatly against Gods Commandements .

Serg. Paul .

Yet there are many things wherein they are builders , in that they make many prayers , and condemne drunkennesse , pride , vncleannesse , oppression , &c. and exhort vnto the contrary vertues .

Saul .

Those things which haue beene already spoken being so , they cannot bee counted builders any more then notorious wicked persons , who notwithstanding their praying and some good cutward seeming things in them , are said to be destroyers of the Law ; for so the Prophet complaineth , Psal. 119.126 . It is time for thee Lord to put to thy hand , for men destroy thy Law . How is this but by transgressing ? and if simply to transgresse be a destroying of the Law , much more to teach and maintaine transgressing , and to oppose and destroy such as dare not herein offend God , as the Romanists doe by fire and sword .

Serg. Paul .

I cannot see how they can defend themselves , if these be their courses , but that they must come vnder that censure . Hee that breaketh the least of these commandements , Mat. 5.19 . and teacheth others to doe so , shall bee counted the least in the Kingdome of Heauen . Haue you any thing else against them to proue that they build not , but demolish and destroy ?

Saul .

There is one thing more , which may be reckoned a chiefe thing in this building , and that is faith . For when the foundation Christ is rightly laid , it is builded vpon him by faith and loue , these in short comprehending the whole edifice : so that hee which buildeth these two , is indeed a builder , and shall be saued , though he buildeth withall hay and stubble of curious speculations , frothy doctrine , or erroneous conceits , about points more mysticall , as his weake iudgement mis-leadeth him . Now loue is the fulfilling of the Law : and herein I haue shewed that the Romanists build not , but destroy : and as I haue shewed touching that , so I will further declare , to aching faith , that they build not by teaching it rightly , but destroy by putting true faith downe , and bringing in an vnsound and vaine faith ?

Serg. Paul .

How shall that appeare ?

Saul .

Very easily . For a sound faith is to beleeue stedfastly , without doubting , in regard of the defects in vs , casting our selues vpon Gods mercy in Iesus Christ for saluation , because he hath promised , and is able to effect it . For Abrahams faith , which is set forth for an example of a sound faith , is thus described . He doubted ●●t , Rom. 4.10 . neither considered the deadnesse of his owne body , &c. See the place , Rom. 4. But they maintaine , that there is no assurance to bee had by faith , but onely by hope , to the lift moment of our liues , and that we cannot but be doubtfull , without speciall reuelation , in regard of out owne corruptions , through which wee may fall away when we haue gone furthest in grace , flatly against that which is said to haue beene done by Abraham our patterne .

Serg. Paul .

This doth not seeme to be a destroying of faith , but humilitie for a mans owne vnworthinesse .

Saul .

They pretend humility endeed , but wee bee to that humilitie that denyeth the true instrument , which only can helpe vs to heauen , and taketh a counterfeit in stead of it . For they teach , that faith is onely to beleeue the things contained in the holy Scriptures , and that as the Church beleeueth them , without knowing in particular what these things are , Iam. 2. or applying them to a mans owne soule in particular . Which if it be true faith , then the deuill hath true faith : for he beleeueth thus , and goeth a little further , because he vnderstandeth what he beleeueth .

Serg. Paul .

Is it not then a sound faith , vnlesse it be stedfast ? oh how vncomfortable is this to many poore soules that cannot attaine to any such certainty ?

Saul .

It is therefore to be vnderstood , that though this be the vertue of a sound faith to assure the soule ; yet it is often a long time , before a beleeuer commeth to this . For euen as the impe must stand long in the stocke , before it closeth with it , and becommeth very fast ; so this assurance commeth after long experience , and continuance in Christ by faith .

Serg. Paul .

I am resolued now , that this Romish Church greatly erreth and dangerously too : but there are many in that Church , that know not the depth of these things : but onely beleeue a Purgatorie , and pray for the dead , and beseech the Saints departed to helpe them , and vse crossing , and Holy Water , and receiue the Bread and Wine in the Sacrament , as Christs reall body and blood , adoring it therefore with many the like superstitions . Is there any great danger to them , being ignorantly miss-led , and doing herein but as they are perswaded they ought to doe ?

Saul .

There is no lesse danger to them , Deut. 13. then vnto their Leaders , no more then there was vnto such as were seduced to idolatry . For as they also must dye for it without all partialitie : so the simply mis-led Papist cannot but expect ruine with this Leader , Math. 15.14 . For if the blind leade the blind , they shall both fall into the ditch . Onely the iudgement of the Leader shall be greater , especially if in sinister respects , his conscience being conuicted by the truth , he doth yet persist in vpholding errour , as experience hath taught that many of them haue done .

Serg. Paul .

It standeth with good reason that they which wittingly preferre errour , should beare the burthen of it : but methinkes such as are mis-led by them , following their conscience , should not perish : for many of them serue God according to their profession with a good heart .

Saul .

Errour is of that nature , as that it is damnable in whomsoeuer . First , because it is contrary to truth , which sanctifieth and maketh free . For so the Lord hath prayed , Ioh. 17.17 . Ioh. 8.32 . Sanctifie them by thy Truth , and hath pronounced , the truth shall make you free . Wherefore contrariwise errour polluteth and enthralleth , and so debarreth from entring heauen , Reuel. 22. because no vncleane thing shall enter there ; and the bond-woman shall bee cast out with her children . Secondly , Gal. 4. because it is a iudgement vpon those onely that perish , and are damned ; to haue their eyes blinded , and to bee giuen ouer to delusions , as I haue shewed , 2 Cor. 4.4 . 2 Thes. 2.11 . Thirdly , because God is truth , and the Deuill is a lyar ; and therefore by error the minde is out of the way to God , and can neuer enioy him , but is in the right way to the Deuill .

Serg. Paul .

Any one of these reasons is sufficient to proue their wofull case . But may there not be any meanes found out to reconcile these two Religions , by yeelding somewhat on both sides , and by laying aside austeritie and strangenesse , and by putting on lenity and familiaritie one towards another ?

Saul .

In all the particular points of difference I haue made it plaine , that we are in the truth : as therefore if wee would not goe from God , we must not go from any of these things either in faith , or practice● for ●hat were but to yeeld to accompany them in the way to perdition , and not to doe any thing aduantageous to their soules . Wherefore they must yeeld vnto vs , and as we haue already done , come out of this Babel of errours , and superstitions , if euer they will inioy true peace and comfort to Godward . In the meane season , if gentle and perswasiue meanes would doe them any good , they haue them in greater measure then they could expect , considering their forepassed cruelty , and rigour : but for familiaritie and bosome friendship , it is expressely against that charge ; Tit. 3.10 . An Hereticke after once or twice admonition auoid .

Serg. Paul .

I thanke you most heartily for this light which you haue giuen vnto me , and I thanke God , who sent you vnto me , by whose grace I resolue to liue and dye in the faith which you haue declared , and after no other manner to worship God . And for this you shall no more be called Saul : but because I count you my best friend in the world , and so another very selfe , you shall be called after mine owne name Paul , because I know not otherwise how to expresse how nearely to my heart I haue placed you for your good instructions this day giuen vnto me .

Elymas .

Most excellent and worthy Gouernor : I am sorie to heare that a man of your place , and wisdome , should haue his eares and minde so much abused , by the seducing words of an Arch-hereticke . Is your Church the onely True Church of God , and is the Church of the Catholikes a false Church , or none at all ? ( Oh God ) what will not these men perswade vnto ? Is it not manifest to all the world , that yee are a company of Heretikes , and Schismaticks , and a Church but of yesterday , or since Luthers time at the most ? Was God without a Church , till your faction began ? What impudencie is this to abuse Noble Gouernours of Countreys thus , by drawing them from the Catholike Church of Rome , that hath euer been famous through the world , for constant cleauing to the Christian Religion .

Paul .

Thou bewitching Sophister , and beguiler of simple soules , is is knowne to all men , that this is your vsuall false slander of our Church , and the chiefe string to your Bow : so that when yee haue nothing else to fay , your refuge still is the old Religion , the old Religion : what will ye forsake the old Religion for a new ? But to follow you and beat you with your owne weapon . Be it knowne , that the reformed Religion , is the old Religion indeed , and the present religion of the Church of Rome a new religion ; of which this noble person present shall be iudge , seeing you haue prouoked me to enter these lists with you .

Elymas .

I am content that either he or any man shal iudge herein betweene vs , and if you can proue what you haue s●yd , I will lose the day .

Paul .

I proue it therefore thus . The Religion commended to vs by Gods Spirit in the holy Scriptures is the old Religion ; and that whereof men of later times are authors is new in comparison of it : But the reformed is thus commended to vs , as I haue already fully declared , and the Religion of the present Church of Rome is from men of latter times . Ergo.

Elymas .

Neither is the Protestant Religion commended in the holy Scriptures , nor the Roman Catholike Religion inuented by man since . For , as much as you bragge of the Scriptures , you haue not one plaine sentence in your owne Bible for any one point of your Religion , without adding , altering or glossing vpon it , as is your vsuall manner . And for our Religion , shew if you can , when and by whom those points which you call errors , were inuented : for wee hold , that all things haue euer since the Apostles times been thus .

Paul .

I maruell that you and your fellow , whosoeuer hee was , that wrote the book blasphemously intituled , The gag for the Gospell , are not ashamed so boldly to charge vs , that we haue not one plaine place of Scripture . What is that saying of our Lord , Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God , and him onely shalt thou serue . Mat. 4.10 . Doe not both the words and the circumstances plainly make for vs , denying to fall downe and worship any but God , otherwise Christ had not spoken so appositè to Satan , bidding him to fall downe and worship him . What is that command ? Thou shalt not make to thy selfe any grauen image , &c. And againe , Deut. 4.15 . Take good heed vnto your selues , for ye saw no manner of similitude on the day that the Lord spake vnto you in Ho●eb , lest you corrupt your selues , and make you a grauen image , the similitude of any figure , &c. What is this saying ? There is one God , 1. Tim. 2.4 . 2. Cor. 3.5 . Phil. 2.13 . and one Mediator betwixt God and man , the man Christ Iesus : and this , Wee are not sufficient of our selues to thinke a good thought as of our selues : and this , God worketh in you the will and the deed of his own good pleasure ; with many more text● before alleaged , which I spare to repeat ; So that we may most truely affirme , that there is no one tenent of our Church , but we haue a plaine place of Scripture for it : but it may truly be retorted vpon you , that you haue not one plaine place for any one of your tenents or practices , so that ye are faine miserably to wrest and straine any text hence alledged , and when that will not doe , to fly to Apochryphall bookes , traditions , and ridiculous fables .

Elym .

Are all these sayings in your Bible , if they bee , it is more then I know , but sure I am , that there are sentences plainly teaching the same that we doe . For what else is that saying of our Sauiour ; This is my body , and , my flesh is meat indeed , and blood , drinke indeed : and , vpon this rocke will I build my Church : and , to thee will I giue the Keyes of the Kingdome of heauen : and againe , Peter feed my sheepe . And touching the Church , Math. 18.17 . 1 Tim 3.15 . If he heareth not the Church , let him be to thee as an Ethnicke : and , the Church is the ground and pillar of truth . Touching other points we need none other Scripture , seeing to the Church it is promised ; Ioh. 16.13 . When he is come which is the spirit of truth , he will lead you into all truth . Wherefore the Church cannot erre , and whatsoeuer is by her propounded , as matter of faith , or practice , must needs then be right : But bee it knowne vnto you , that wee want not plaine places for particular points . Touching iustification . Iam. 2.24 . A man is not iustified by faith onely , but by workes . Touching prayer for the dead . There is a sinne vnto death , I say not , that yee should pray for it . 1 Ioh. 5.16 . Iam. 5.14 . Luke 7.47 . Math. 25. Touching extreame vnction . They shall pray for him and anoint him in the name of the Lord . Touching the merit of workes . Many sinnes are forgiuen her , because shee hath loued much : and , Come ye blessed , &c. for I was hungry , and yee fed me , &c. For time would faile me , if I should go on to alleage all the places , that plainly make for vs .

Paul .

You doe well so to slieglit our euidences brought out of the holy Scriptures , because they are so plaine , that they cannot bee answered ; neither indeed doe your sect much acquaint your selues with the Bible : for there are some students in Diuinity of many yeares , that neuer read the Bible . To your places therefore : How doth the speech of our Sauiour make for Transubstantiation , without altering or adding ? It is meat indeed , we confesse , but he saith not , is meat for the body , nor yet in explaining himself afterwards hath he one word intimating a bodily substance that he would giue to be fed vpon , but the clean contrary , for he saith , Ioh. 6.63 . the flesh profiteth nothing , my words are spirit and life . Againe , for those sayings vnto Peter , there is nothing plaine for Peters supremacy , for his bearing vp all , as a foundation , and much lesse for his pretended successours the Bishops of Rome . For plainly to teach these things had beene to haue said , vpon thee and thy successours will I build my Church , and to thee and to him that shall succeed thee in thy Bishopricke at Rome , I will giue authority ouer all others . But so far is the Lord from this , that when there was iust , occasion offered vpon the motion of the mother of Zebedees children , to declare the supreme , & when they contended about it amongst themselues , hee speaketh no word to settle the supremacy vpon any one , but altogether to stop the mouth of any from once challenging it . But I haue spoken sufficiently of this before , so that I shall not need to adde any thing about his commission to feed his sheepe . It is maruaile that when all chiefe points of faith are so plainely expressed , that this which is so much stood vpon , as inferiour to none , should be so obscurely passed ouer . Touching the Church there is nothing plainely spoken , that it shall be alwayes visible , but onely it may be implyed , that as long as there are Christians to doe those mutuall offices of reproouing one another for sinne , there shall be a discipline exercised in the Church how corrupt soeuer , for the chastisement of such as are complained of , as manifest transgressors of the Law the iust proceedings whereof , notwithstanding the corruptions , are of force to the terror of malefactors . For that saying , tell the Church , at that time had reference to a most corrupt Church of Scribes and Pharisees , whose authority was yet by the Lord established , saying , Math. 23.1 . whatsoeuer they bid you obserue , that obserue and doe . So that from hence nothing more can be rightly taught , no not by inference , but that there shall alwayes be some visible Church good or bad , which we also acknowledge . But in case that there bee two such Churches together , who doubteth forsaking that which is corrupt , to goe to the best and soundest . Touching error , from which you seeke to exempt your Church , because the Church is called the ground and pillar of truth , what is this to the present Church of Rome , the sinke of most grosse errors and superstitions . The true Church indeed , such as it was in those dayes founded vpon the Prophets and Apostles , Christ himselfe being the chiefe corner slone , Ephes. 2.20 . was the ground of truth , because therein the truth was preserued and vpheld , and wheresoeuer it is so at this day , that Church is likewise the ground and pillar of truth . But it doth not necessarily follow , that wheresoeuer the Church is , whether sound or corrupt , it is the ground of truth , for so much as the truth held and eleaued vnto in all things maketh the Church the pillar and ground of truth , and not the Church that to be true whatsoeuer she shall think good to propound . For otherwise Christ , the Prophets & Apostles , with their dictates , institutions , and writings should not bee a ground vnto men succeeding and inferiour to them , but these men should bee a ground vnto them , which were absurd . And the same I answer to that promise of the spirit , it was peculiar to the Apostles and special instruments stirred vp for those times , to be so guided into all truth , as not to erre , because what came from them was to bee a ground to the faithfull in all succeeding ages , and it is most palpably wrested to your Church now . And if your fundamentall places be thus impertinently alledged , the rest will fall without any labour , at the least ( most worthy Sergius ) you may be able to iudge hereof by that , which hath beene already spoken in laying open the faith of the reformed Church .

Serg. Paul .

When these places were first alledged by Elymas , I thought it impossible to answer them and therefore did begin to incline to thinke better of the Roman Church , then you had perswaded me : but now I see that they are but the painting and colouring of a deformed face , being without all true beauty . And for the places omitted , I haue them so freshly in my memory , since you resolued them vnto me , at that I am fully reselued , that they are but wrested and wrung by the aduersary to sorne his turne .

Elym .

But by your fauour ( sir ) nothing hath yet beene sayd to one place plainly distinguishing betwixt veniall and mortall sinnes , and concluding prayer for some dead , viz. that sinne not vnto death , but are penitent , before they dye .

Paul .

You doe well to recall that againe , which I thought not worth the answering . How can it be spoken of mortall and veniall sinnes ? Is he that hath sinned a mortall sinne to be giuen ouer then , as a desperate Reprobate , and not to bee prayed for any more ? What is this , but to condemne Peter himselfe , and Dauid , and Manasseh , &c. as vnworthy to bee prayed for ? If your distinction of mortall and veniall sinnes haue no better ground but this , it is set vp altogether vpon the sands . And for praying for any dead , nothing can bee more absurd , then to alledge this : for he doth not note out the time of continuing , or breaking off from sinne , as making his case that hath sinned , desperate , or reparable by the prayers of others , by reason of this circumstance , but plainely in it selfe , for hee saith , There is a sinne vnto death . And againe , There is a sinne not vnto death ; that is , in plaine English , there is a sinne , which who so committeth it , shall dye therefore , without all hope of life , whatsoeuer prayers should be made for him : but there is sinne also , the proper sequell and wages whereof is death ; yet not so necessarily , but remission and life may be obtained notwithstanding . And if it be taken in this sense , there is the consent of other places to confirme it , as that . All sinnes shall bee forgiuen to the sonnes of men , but he that sinneth against the Holy Ghost , shall neuer bee forgiuen , of such a sinne Saul seemeth to haue beene guilty , when the Lord forbiddeth Samuel to pray any more for him . But take it of praying for such as dye repeneantly , and where can you finde any to second it ?

Serg. Paul .

I see it is in vaine for you ( Elymas ) to hold argument with him any longer by the testimonies of holy Scripture : preceed therefore to your plea of antiquitie , for therein ●o● may happen to put him downe indeed .

Paul .

It must needs bee so ( Sir ) as you haue said ; for whatsoeuer flourishes they make , their conscience telleth them , that the Scriptures are against them , seeing they can no more abide them , then the ●●●tle the day-light . Why else doe they keep them lockt vp in an vnknowne tongue ? Why doe they condemne our translations , as hereticall , and allow onely of Ieromes translation : for it were a mad part for them to condemne and forbid that , which maketh on their side . This their cracking therefore of the Scriptures is but a fruit of their late impudency , putting them on to vndertake the proofe of any thing , that can bepropounded . But they are very confident , that we cannot demonstrate in particular the time and persons , when and by whom their false doctrines were broached , and their superstitions brought in , yet I feare as little to enter the lists with him about this argument , as about the other .

Elymas .

And I doubt not but to put you to shame enough in so doing : for the most ancient Orthodoxe Fathers of the Church haue alwayes taught the same that wee doe ; and haue often mentioned the particulars of our deuotion ; which yee falsly call superstition . Which being so , I weigh not all your places of Scripture , if you had as many more ; nor your colourable answers to such as haue beene by mee alledged : for the customes of the Church , and traditions deliuered from age to age , are of the same authoritie with the holy Scriptures ; and they are rather to bee regulated hereby , as being certaine , then these by them , speaking as euery man listeth to wrest and turne them .

Paul .

It is a false slander by you laid vpon the Scriptures , that they are vncertaine , and a burthening of Christian people , for which you shall answere , to obtrude traditions thus vnto them , as I haue before declared . To passe that ouer therefore here . Who can tell , whether the ancient Fathers in those passages , wherein they haue made some mention of some practices by you vsed , were made to speake so by some audacious forger , seeing there are so many supposititious writings falsly fathered vpon so many imaginary Fathers , that neuer were in rerum natura , and such purging and altering of ancient Writings hath beene made of late by the authority of the Councell of Trent . Moreouer , it is possible that through the neglect of Historians , or wittingly in fauour of your abuses , the originall and first springing vp of them may be concealed . But if not , few men are read in History , neither is history reading necessary to saluation ; and therefore it maketh not any whit the more on your side , though they cannot precisely set downe , when and by whom your heresies and superstitions were brought in : euen as Mahumetisme were no whit the more approueable , though the originall thereof were vnknowne . For by this reason the Heathen priests of old sought to maintaine the credit of their idolatries , challenging the Christians for imbracing a new Religion . It is a poore shift , when any thing is particularly disproued by the Word of God , to cauill about the beginning of it , as if the day were lost , if that could not be done : for if the leakes of a Ship , or the decayes of an House be apparant , if corruptions within , or blemishes vpon the bodie be made manifest : what auaileth it to approue that they are no decayes or blemishes , by pleading , But can any man tell , when these first began ?

Elym .

Our errours , as you call them , are not so euident yet , as your comparisons . If you cannot therefore shew their beginning , it is plaine , that they were deliuered from the Apostles , and it is heresie and impiety in you to impugne them .

Paul .

Doth the same fountaine send forth salt water and sweet ? Doth the same mouth speake contradictories ? for so certaine is it , that these things cannot bee deriued from the Apostles , seeing they are altogether against them . But because you vige it so much , I will set downe the time and age of euery part of your Religion , that the nouelty of it may appeare to all the world . And first I will begin with the chiefe and head of all your errours the Popes headship . This was first established in a Councell at Rome of seuenty two Bishops , thirty Presbyters , and three Deacons , in the time of Boniface the third , Anno Dom. 607. Plat. in vita Bonis . 3. being then obtained of Phocas , who came to the Empire by murthering Mauritius , his Master : and therefore to prouide the better for himselfe , he was willing by granting the supremacie ouer all , to ioyne vnto him the Pope of Rome . Conc. Constant . the eight generall Councell . Afterwards there was a Councell held at Constantinople , in the dayes of Pope Adrian , vnder Basilius the Emperour , who slew his associate Michael , Anno Dom. 871. Wherein none were admitted , but such as subscribed to the Popes Supremacie : for Adrian had curried fauour with murthering Basili●s , as Bonisace had before done with Phocas . Lastly , there was a Councell at Lyons in the dayes of Gregory the tenth , vnder the Reigne of Michael Paleologus Emperor , Anno Dom. 1273 , wherein the Emperour confirmed the Popes Supremacie , that he might the more strengthen himselfe by him also : for he was an vsurper , and murtherer , by the slaughter of Theodorus committed to his custodie attaining to the Empire . Hee was so abhorred by the Grecians for yeelding herein to Gregorie , that when he was dead , they would not suffer his body to be buried amongst other Christians . Neither was this suprerr acie set vp by any but these persons infamous for murther , except Pipin and Charles his sonne , who attained the Kingdome of France , by the deposition of Chelpericke the lawfull King .

Elym .

Are you not ashamed thus to seeke to blindfold mens eyes ? Did not Constanine the Great , long before this , finding that of right the primacie belonged to Saint Peters Chaire , Socr. lib. 2. c. 20. establish it in the councell of Nice ? And was not Iulius Bishop of Rome appointed by the Sardian Councel to be iudge of appeales ? Anno 35● . And did not the Bishops of Rome long before Boniface , exercise their iurisdiction in deposing Patriarkes ? and were they not acknowledged by the ancient Doctors to be supreme ?

Paul .

You may well be ashamed , I am sure , once to speake of the Councell of Nice , seeing the Popes plea founded hereupon , was so fully disproued in the sixt African Councell assembled at Carthage , Hist. Magd. Cent. 5. ● . ● . Anno ' Dom. 402. in the dayes of Honorius and Theodosius the second , consisting of 217 Bishops , lasting sixe yeares together . For thither did both Sozimus , Boniface , and Celest●nus , Popes , send their Legates , requiring to haue the Supremacie confirmed , according to the Councell of Nice : the Decrees of that Councell were searcht , the Copies of them kept in the Register of Alexandria , and Constantinople were sent for , and , no such thing being f●und , it was decreed , that no appeale should henceforth be made from Africa to Rome , and this plea was condemned , as a forgery . And in a councell somewhat before this at Meliuis●●● it was decreed , that no man should make appellation to Bishops beyond the sea , but in case his owne Bishop did him wrong , hee should appeale to a councell of African Bishops . In the third African or Carth: Councell it was decreed , that the Bishop of Rome should be called the Bishop of the first seat , but not the High Priest , or Prince of Priests , Anno 399. In the sixt Constantinopolitan councell , Anno 681 vnder Constantius , Pegonatus , Pope Sergius his Legate being present , and subscribing , it was decreed , Can. 4● . that the Patriarke of Constantinople was of equall authoritie with the Bishop of Rome , though Sergius being offended , refused afterwards to subscribe . I could reckon vp many more passages in councels , and worthy authors writings , and preachings , of ancient times , plainely oppugning the Popes supremacie , but these shall suffice . Touching Iulius , hee was a worthy Prclate and protector of the wronged , and therefore so set vp in the Sardian Councell , intending the dignifying of his person , not of his Sea . For the exercise of this iurisdiction , and learned mens ascriptions , you know , that à facto ad in s non valet consequentia ; and in the most learned being vnder the Bishop of Rome there might be some flatterie .

Serg. Paul .

I did not thinke , but that the Bishop of Rome bad euer been High Priest ouer all the Clergie , but it seemed euer to me an vsurpation in him to domincre ouer Kings and Emperors : but now I perceiue that this supremacie euen ouer the Clargie is but a crazie foundation , with much tugging and opposition , in time climbed vp into ; so that there is enough spoken to disproue his principalitie ouer Kings also , seeing this yeeldeth an argument à minore ad maius . Proceed therefore to some other point .

Paul .

After the Supremacy , images were brought into the Church to be worshipped , against which the Emperor Leo setting himselfe , sent his Mandate to Pope Gregory the third to abolish them . Gregory calleth a great Councell at Rome , about Anno 720 , wherein the Emperour was therefore excommunicated & depriued , & together with him Anastatius Patriarke of Constantinople . But soon after Constantinus Coprony●nus called a Councell in Constantinople , of 338 Bishops , Anno 755 , wherein all setting vp and worshipping of images is condemned as heathenish : and the Fathers writing against them are alledged : as Epiphanius , Eusebius , Gregorius Theel. Athanasius , Amphilochius , Chrysostomus and Theodorus A●cyra . After this there was a Councell held at Nice in Bythinia vnder Irene mother to Constantine , Anno 788 , who most vnnaturally put out her sonnes eyes , and so made him to end his dayes in misery : in which assembly of 350 Bishops , it was decreed , that the images of Christ , and of the blessed Virgin Mary should not onely be set vp in places of adoration : but also be adored , and wo shipped , because the honour of an Image doth redound to ●●m , that is there by represented . But marke vpon what grounds chiefely they proceeded thus . Pope Adrian wrote his Letters , wherein he telleth , how Constantine being a Leper , and aduised to bathe himselfe in the blood of children , which he was loth to do , had an apparition of Peter and Paul , bidding him send for Syluester the Pope ; who comming to him , and by the images of these two holy Apostles which he had ; making known to Constantine , ( that at the fight of them , said , these were they ) who had appeared to him , hee baptized him , and his Leprosie was cleansed . Now all this is a meere fable , as appeareth by Eusebius , who writing the life of Constantine , sheweth that Constantine was alwayes free from Leprosie , and baptized by Eusebius it . Nicomedia . Another great motiue to them to stand for images , was a foolish tale of a Monke , who said that the Deuill tempted him continually to vncleannesse , and would not cease , vnlesse hee did giue ouer worshipping the image of the Virgin Mary . The worshipping of images was againe confirmed at Constantinople , in the time of A●rian the second , Pope of Rome , Basilius being Emperour . But betweene these two Councels , there was one held at Frankfort , by the appointment of Charles the Great , Anno 794 , to which the Popes Legates came and offered the Decree of the last Councell of Nice to be confirmed : but howsoeuer something in the Councell of Constantinople against images were disliked ; namely , the forbidding of them to be made , yet the Decree of that Nicene Councell touching the worshipping of image● was more condemned , and that therefore iudged worthy the name neither of a Catholike , or Occumenicke Councell .

Elymas .

You are greatly mistaken to referre the beginning of images in the Church to the time of Pope Gregorie the third : for then the hereticall Emperour attempted the abolishing of them , which argueth , that they were in vse long before .

Paul .

They were in vse indeed amongst Heretikes , such as Simon Magus , of whom Theodoret , and Augustine report , that he offered his owne , and the image of his Concubine to be worshipped ; and the Cretians so much spoken against by Saint Paul to Titus , are said by Ierome to bee the first that brought images into the Church , Iren. lib. 2 c. 6. and the filthy Gnesticks worshipped the image of Christ : but Catholike Doctors haue euer anciently inueighed against them . Eusebius Bishop of Neocesarea saith , that it commeth from the Heathen : for Heliogabilus , Alexander Seuerus , and Adrianus , Enseb . lib. 7. c. 18 Heathen Emperours , had first the images of Abraham , Moses , and Christ in their Chappels . Epipb . Epist. ad Iob. 〈◊〉 . Epiphanius wrote an Epistle to Iohn Bishop of Ierusalem , against the bringing of images into Churches ; and he is famous for renting in pieces an image painted vpon a cloth , behinde a Church doore : and long agoe in a Councell held at Eliberis a towne of Spaine , Can. 36. Can. 60. it was decreed , that nothing that is worshipped should bee pictured on a wall ; and if any were slaine in breaking images down , he should be put into the Catalogue of Martyrs . This Councell was in the time of Constantine the Great . In the Councell of Constantinople before spoken of , many sentences of the Fathers were alledged against images , amongst which that of Eusebius Pamphili is most remarkable . Constantia the Empresse had sent vnto him for the image of Christ , vpon which occasion hee write●h thus vnto her . I would gladly know , what image of Christ you inquire for , if it be of the true , and vnchangeable nature bearing the Character and ingrauen similitude of the Father , I hope that you are sufficiently instructed , that as no man knoweth the Father , except the Sonne ; so no man knoweth the Sonne , except the Father . If it be the image of the shape of a seruant vndertaken for our sakes : vnderstand that the splendor and shining brightnesse of his glory , cannot be represented with dead colours : for euen the Disciples on the Mountaine were not able to abide the brightnesse of his shining face ; how much lesse are we able to abide the celestiall splendor of his glorified body ?

Elymas .

All this is onely against the worshipping of images , which we doe not , but only haue them for remembrances , knowing also , that an image cannot represent perfectly the diuinitie , but put vs in minde of him , that sometime appeared in this shape .

Paul .

Indeed so you make your seduced in England beleeue : but in your second Nicene Councell their worshipping was decreed , which made the Frankfort Councell so much distaste their proceedings . Constantine , Bishop of Constance , in that Nicene Councell said : I worship the holy images with the same worship , wherwith I worship the consubstantiall Trinitie . And Iohn the Legate of the East ; The Image of the King is the King , and so the image God is God : and therefore if any man worshippeth it with the same worship , he sinneth not . And the chiefe pillars of the Romane Church since . Thomas Aquinas , and Bellarmine speake to the same effect . Aquin. Tom 3. qu. 25. crtic . 3. The one faith ; Because the Crosse representeth Christ , who is God , it is also to be worshipped with diuine worship . Bell. de Ecclesia triumph . l. 2.6.2 . The other saith , that images are properly to bee worshipped . And vnto them we may ioyne a third speaking in the name of all , Azor. lib. 9 c. 6. Azorias , who saith . It is the constant opinion of our diuines , that the image is to be worshipped with the same worship that the thing represented by it . In a Councell held at London , An. 712 , the chiefe ground , whereupon they proceeded for images , was the tale of a certaine Monk , Eguuinus , who affirmed vpon oath , that the Virgin Mary appeared vnto him in a dreame , & declared that it was her wil , that her image should be set vp in Churches & worshipped .

Serg. Paul .

It seemeth , that here in England they are ashamed of the doctrine of worshipping Images ; and therefore they seeke to hide what their Church holdeth herein : and good reason , if the patrons of image-worshipping bee considered : for if I haue obserued you aright , there haue beene none but infamous persons , Irene , and Basilius for murder , the Pope of Rome for ambition , and superstitious Monkes blindly leading on the blind to the veneration of images by their fables . Enough therefore hath beene sayd of this point , proceed now to some other .

Paul .

The next shall bee the single life of men in holy Orders , because there was much trouble about this at the same time that images were in question . For in England at a Councell held at Canterbury Anno 975 , there was great question about it : but Dunstan then Archbishop of Canterbury handled the matter so , that when it was likely to haue gone against him , who stood for a prohibition of mariage , there was a voice heard from a Crucifixe standing there , that Dunstans opinion was best , and thereupon they decreed against mariage of men in holy orders . Hist. Magd. Cent. 10. c. 9. But at their next meeting Falihodus a Scot learnedly proued by the holy Scriptures that mariage was lawfull for all men , and so their minds were againe altered taking that voice to come from the Deuill and not from God , who cannot bee contrary to himselfe . And after this , Anno 1060 , Pope Nicholas the second sent one Damianus to hold a Councell at Millan , who condemned these mariages as the heresie of the Nicolaitans : whereupon a great tumult in the City followed . And after this at Erfurd , Anno 1074 , a Councell was called by the Archbishop of Mentz , commanded so to doe by Gregory the seuenth , Pope , to which came many maried Priests prouing the lawfulnesse of their mariages , and vrging the ancient practice of Clergy-men : but when they no whit preuailed , the Archbishop pressing them to put away their wiues , they went out , and through great discontent meditated his destruction , whereof he being aware , fled for that time from the Councell . The next yeare being againe commanded , and the Popes Legate being present , he attempted the same businesse againe at Mentz : but the Priests being assenibled , so terrified them both with clapping their hands , and with a vehement commotion of their bodies , that they fled away for their liues , neither durst hee euer after assemble any more Councell to that end .

Elym .

You doe well to pitch vpon these later times wherin Priests were growne more carnall and licentious : for you might if it pleased you , haue found out Councells long before these , determining against Priests mariage without any tumult . The 2 Carthag : Councell vnder Theodosius , about Anno 380 , forbad the mariage of Bishops , Priests and Deacons , and in such as were already maried , an abstinence from matrimoniall society . A Councell held at Altissidorum in France , Anno 613. ratifyed the same decree . And the 4 Councell of Tolledo in Spaine , Anno 639 , ordained , that when Priests and Deacons are admitted to their offices they should vow chastity . Yea it was a thing so generally receiued euen from the Apostles times , as that till of late yeares all were single without contradiction .

Paul .

That is a notorious lye . For in the first Councell after the Apostles times , which was held at Ancyra in Galatia Anno 308 , it was ordained , that Deacons p●ofessing at the time of their ordination that they had not the gift of continency , might afterwards marry . And in the Councell of Nice , Anno 330 , the mariage of such as were in holy orders comming in question againe , Socrat. Lib. 1.6 , 11. Paphnutim Bishop of a towne in Thebaids being himselfe single , so perswaded to leaue euery man to his owne liberty , that nothing was then concluded against these mariages . And in the 2 Councell of Tolledo it was ordained , Con. Toll . Con. 1. as in the Ancyran Councell before . Now I pitcht vpon later times , because then the debating of the question is set forth , and vpon what grounds your Church proceeded , which is omitted in Councels foregoing . But I am glad , that you can goe no higher in this point , then the second Carthag : Councell , wherein neither were their mariages condemned , but continency commended ; so that we haue two Councels before you , that left mariage free to all men that could not containe .

Serg. Paul .

You haue said enough touching this matter , and it is most likely , that the Dewill spake in the Councell of Canter ●ury on Dunstans side against Prusts mariages , because as I remember , you shewed me before , that to forbid mariage is the doctrine of Denils . Proceed therefore to some other point .

Paul .

The reall presence so much stood vpon shall bee the next . This was neuer determined , nor the word transubstantiation heard of , till the Councell of L●●eran , vnder Pope Innocent the third , Anno 1215 , and the Councell held at Rome vnder Leo the ninth , Anno 1050 against Berengarius , who seeing that such an opinion began to take place , impugned it , and was therefore condemned ; and in another Councell vnder Pope Nicholas the second , brought to recant , but hee afterwards wrote againe to iustifie the same truth , and to shew his repentance for his recantation .

Elym .

Herein you doe notoriously abuse the world . It is true indeed , that before Berengarius his opposition , because no man withstood the doctrine of transubstantiation it was not in a Councell determined . But doth it follow therefore , that it was not before this time maintained ? Haue not all the Fathers that liued before , from time to time , as they had occasion to treat of the Masse , taught with one consent , a secret conuersion by the Priests consecration . Ambr. vseth the very word conuersion & mutation . Lib. 4. de sacram . v. 4. Hom. 5. de Pascale . Euseb. Emissenus sayth , that the Priest by a secret power doth turne the visible creatures into the substance of Christs body & blood : what should I here reckon vp more ? Bellarmine hath numbred 32 Fathers speaking to the same effect .

Paul .

Although the Fathers doe vse the words conuersion , mutation , and making , yet it is true , that I sayd before , they neuer taught transubstantiation : yea after that Leo the ninth and his Councell had condemned Berengarius , Peter Lombard one of your Schoole-men , that liued Anno 1145 , Lombard . Sent. 1.4 . dist. 11. scanning vpon this conuersion , saith , If it be enquired what manner of conuersion it is , whether formall or substantiall , or of any other kind , I am not able to define . And after the determination of the Lateran Councell , diuers others of your learnedest Schoolc-men haueing enuously acknowledged , that the faith of the transubstantiation is founded only vpon the determination of the Church : as Scot. in 4. Dist. ●1 . 〈◊〉 3 , art. 1. and Bi●llect 41. in Ca● . Misse . Petr●● de A●aco in 4 Sem. qu. 5. art. 2. Conc. 2. with diuers others . To those sayings of the Fathers I answer , that they meant not any alteration of the substance of the bread & wine , but that it still remaining , they became in a wonderfull manner Christs very body and blood to the faithfull receiuer . For thus Ambrose expresseth himselfe , Amb. de s●●ram . 1.4 . c. 4 . ●ial . 2. Gel : in Eutych . saying , They are the things which they were , and are changed into another thing : And Theodoret saith , These mysticall signes doe not g●● from their nature after their sanctification . And Gelasius against Eutychcs saith ; The signes remaine in the propriety of their nature . And Dr●thmarus , that liued about An. 800 , writing vpon these words ; ' Doe this in remembrance of mee , Drutb in ●iet . 26. saith , the Lord turning the bread spiritually into his body , & the wine into his blood hath commanded vs to do the same , that hereby we might remember what he hath done for vs . Augustine saith , The Lord doubted not to say , This is my body , August . Cont. Adim . c. 12. when he game a signe of his body . I could also reckon vp many more , who haue taught , that the very bread in the Sacrament is Christs body , and not some other substance vnd●r the appearance of bread : as Iren. Iust in Martyr , Cyprian , Chrysostome , Origen , Nazianzen , &c.

Elym .

These are your shists : for though you bee vrged with places and sayings most plaine , you will still haue some euasion or other . Is it likely , that if transubstantiation , though not in word , yet in effect had not beene generally receiued before Leo , or the Latoran Councell , that all the world without any opposition , but onely of one Berengarius would haue at once yeelded vnto it ?

Paul .

I wonder that you can without blushing speake of such a generall consent of all , when as the whole Greeke Church withstood it tooth and nayle : for howsoener they agreed vnto the Church of Rome in other things , yet in this point , such as were present of them at the Councell of Flerence vnder Eugenius the 4 , Anno 1439 , could neuer bee brought to consent : yet because Eugenius was desirous of a consent for the credit of his Sea , hauing drawne them to subscribe to his supremacy , the proceeding of the Holy Ghost , the vse of vnleauened bread in the sacrament , and to Purgatory , he caused a Bull to be published , called Bulla consensus , notwithstanding their constant opposition in the point of transubstantiation ; but euen in other things , wherein they yeelded , such distast was taken at them by the rest of the Greeke Churches at their returne home , that they were publikely execrated therefore , and prohibited Christian buriall . And for others , that opinion of the Spirits guiding the Church in the truth did so preuaile with them , as that they yeelded to transubstantiation because it was in the Lateran Councell determined , as appeareth by the confession of the Schoolemen before cited , Scot. in 4 dist. 11 qu. 3. art. 1. the first of whom Scotus sayth ; If it be enquired , why the Church hath chosen this so hard an vnderstanding of this article about transubstantiation , when as the words of the Scripture might be expounded safely according to a more easie and true sense in appearance : I answer that the Catholike Church hath expounded the Scripture by the same Spirit of truth , whereby it was at the first deliucred .

Elym .

All this will not elude the antiquity of this doctrine . For if transubstantiation were not alwayes held , why was the Masse called a sacrifice , the table an altar , the Minister a Priest ? why hath it alwayes beene shewed to the people to be worshipped , and offered in one kind to the people , and carryed about with that reuerence , and the remainder of it kept for the same purpose in a Pixe to be ready vpon all occasions ?

Paul .

Wee doe acknowledge that very anciently these names of sacrifice , Altar , and Priest were vsurped , but not in your sense . The table of the Lord was called an altar , because the offerings of Christian people comming to the holy Communion which were brought for the reliefe of the poore , were layd vpon it , according to Ireuaus , who sayth , Lib. 2. Cap. 32. that Christ by taking bread and wine taught the Disciples a new oblation of the new Testament , the first fruits of his creatures . In those Cannons , which are sayd to be the Apostles , Can. 4. it is or●●yned , that nothing should be offered vpon the alter but eares of corne and frankinscense , and in the 3 Councell of Carthage , Can. 24. that nothing should bee offered but fruits of come and grapes . And hence partly came the name sacrifice , for almes are a sacrifice to God : and partly because of the representation of Christs sacrifice made hereby , seeing it is vsuall to call the thing representing by the name of the thing represented . Lomb 1.4 . dist. 12. And so Peter Lomb●rd sayth , that it is not properly called a sacrifice , but because it is a memoriall and representation of the true sacrifice of Christ vpon the crosse . And lastly , for the sacrifice of praise and thankesgiuing then offered vnto God . That Christians had not altars properly so called is most plaine , from Arnobins , Arnob. lib. 6. contra gant . Orig. lib. 8. cent . Cals . who sayth , that the Gentiles accused the Christians , because they had no altars : and from Origen , who acknowledgeth , that Christians had neither altars , nor images . And therefore as it is called an altar , so sometime it is also called a table . See August . cont . lit . Petil. l. 2. c. 47. Touching adoration , it was not vsed , till Honorius the third , Anno 1220 , fiue yeares after the Councell of Laterans Touching the administration in one kinde , that was neues vsed , Def. lib. de offic. py viri . till 1000 yeares after Christ , as Cassauder sheweth , and it was first decreed in the Councell of Constance , vnder Pope Iobu the 23 , Anno 1414 Touching the reseruation of the remainder , there was a long time no such vse , for they burnt it in the fire , Hesych . lib. 2. in Leuit ● 8. as Hesych : testifieth ; and if sometime it was reserued , it was by priuate persons , who caryed it home with them : but was not so generally approued ; and after more consideration in Councells condemned , as in the Councell called Caesar Augustau . Cap. 3. If any bee preued not to haue conformed the Eucharist receiued in the Church , let him be anathema . And in the first Tolletan Councell : Cap. 14. If they shall remaine ●ill the morrow , let them not be any longer reserued , but by the diligence of the Clerciks consumed . The name of your Masse is very ancient , but then the Masse or missa was a dismissing of the Catecumeni , when others remained to receiue , and thus it continued to Anno 600 , according to I sidor . lib. 6. Orig. c. 19. The Masse therefore in your Church now is new , and so are all your vsages of it , and iustly by Christians to be exploded .

Serg. Paul .

I thinke this point hath beene so seanned , that there needs no more to be sayd , for mine owne part you hour giuen we such light into these things , as I neuer had before : for the ancient name of the Masse and Sacrifice , and Altar , &c. made still some scruple in my minde , that transubstantiation was a most ancient tenent of the Church . But seeing I am now fully satisfied , proceed to some other point .

Paul .

The next new thing is the Latine tongue , wherein the Masse is offered , and prayers are made , and the Scriptures are kept . This was not , but where Latine was vnderstood till the dayes of Vitalian Pope , An. 666 , Os●●d . Cont. 7. in whose time Latine was first vsed in Constantinople : Neither doth your Nauclerus much differ : For hee assigneth it to the time of Pope Agatho , Anno 675. In the other Countreys , which vnderstood Latine , as in France , Britaine , and in Africa , it was vsed more anciently : for the Latine tongue was familiar to them for the space of 700 yeares and vpwards , as appeareth in one passage of the third Councell of Tours , Cap. 17. Anno 770 , wherein it is appointed , that Homilies should bee turned into a rusticke Latine tongue , or Theotiske , that they might the better be vnderstood . So that , if the seruice was more anciently performed in the Latine tongue , it was because they commonly vnderstood it best : but since , it not being vnderstood , it is an absurd noueltie to vse it .

Elym .

It is necessarie , that seeing Christs Church is one , the seruice should be vniforme ; and for the Scriptures great reason , to keepe them in an vnknowne tongue , to preuent error .

Paul .

It is necessarie indeed , as conducing to establish the Latine Monarchy ; but it were more necessary for edification to haue all in a knowne tongue , as anciently it was wont to be , as may be gathered from Chrysostom , who saith , Hom. 18. in 2. Cor. that common prayers are made both by the Priest , and the people : and Isidor . When Psalmes are sung , they ought to be sung of all : De Ecst. off . ib. 1. cap. 10. when Prayer is made , let it be made by all ; and when there is reading , let silence be made that all may heare . And for your pretended feare of heresie , that may be an excuse : but seeing anciently all had the Bible in their owne languages , it cannot but passe for a nouclty .

Serg. Paul .

Be there any more points , the antiquitis whereof you can disprous , as you haue done these ?

Paul .

Yes : the doctrine of Purgatory and praying for the dead , came in also long after the Apostles . The first that make mention of Purgatory , are Tertullian and Origen , whose authoritie is not so great , because the one was a Montamst Hereticke ; and the other was condemned for many errours . In Augustines time , which was 400 yeares after Christ it was spoken of but doubtfully . Tnchit . c. 67.69 . Whether there shall bee such a thing or no , it may be enquired , and either be found out , or be kept secret from some faithfull persons , In Esa. l. 28. c. 〈◊〉 . saith Augustine . And Ierome saith , that these things are to be left to the iudgement and knowledge of God . Grog . in Iob 13. c. 20. And Gregory the first , Bishop of Rome , who was after , Anno 600 , saith , because we are redcemed , wee haue this benefit , that when we are taken away from the habitation of our flesh , wee are presently earied to beauenly rewards . Tertul. de Cor. mil. And the same Tertullian was the first , that spake of praying for the dead , who also confesseth , that if you require Scripture for it , you shall find nonc : but tradition shall be pretended as the increaser ; custome the confirmer : and faith the obseruer of it . Yet it is to bee acknowledged , that euen the most approued of the ancient , haue prayed for the dead , as Augustine for his Mother Monica , and Ambrose for Theodosius : but doubtingly because without ground in the Word .

Elymas .

Then I hope you will yeeld this to be more ancient , then your not praying for the dead , and your vtter denying of Purgatory , as an inuention deriued from the H●●●hen .

Paul .

Their praying for the dead was not the same with yours : but either for the augmentation of their glory , who were in Heauen , as Ambrose hauing said , that Theodesius remained in the light , and gloried in the company of the Saints : yet he prayeth , giue perfect rest to thy seruant Theodosius ; Confes l. 9. c. 13. or to expresse their affection , as Augustine , who saith of his mother Monica ; I beleeus , that thou hast done what I desire , but accept of the voluntaries of my mouth . Or if they thought them damned ; they prayed for a mitigation of their paines ; or holding that they might all bee kept in one common place , till the day of iudgement , as La●tantius sheweth de diuin. Draem . lib. 7. cap. 21. Iren. lib. 5. Th●y prayed for the hastening of their Deliuerance . They prayed not for soules in Purgatoric ; neither did they , which held Purgatory , beleeue , that veniall sinnes were there done away , and temporall punishments satisfied for , till after Anno 1000 , as your Church now teacheth ; and therefore , euen these points , as you hold them are new , and vnthought of by antiquity . And seeing no such custome is grounded vpon the Word of God , as Tertullian hath confessed , our denying thus to pray is more Apostolicall , and so more ancient then either yours or theirs .

Serg. Paul .

But thus you will make the Church in the time of these holy Fathers to haue beene no true Church , and them no true members , whom we all yet haue in high esteeme .

Paul .

It doth not follow , because they erred in one thing in practice , through too much affection , that they were no Church : for it is not any errour , that ouerturncth the Church ; but errours razing the foundation , as hath beene before declared .

Elymas .

But these holy Fathers vsed the same things about the seruice of God that wee doe , as holy Water , and Chrisme , both to the sicke , and to the baptized , and Exorcizing , and Crossing , and honoured the Saints departed with going to visit their Reliques , and praying vnto them , and commended a Monasticall life , and confession to a Priest , and workes of penance , wherein the very life of our Religion consisteth . And therefore if we be no true Church , they were no true Church neither .

Paul .

Although there were some tincture of these superstitions in the Church in the dayes of the holy Fathers : yet there was great difference betwixt them and you herein . They vsed the Crosse , not for any confidence they had in it , but as a signe of their profession , as a Aruobius testifieth , saying ; We doe neither worship , nor wish crosses . And Ambrose speaking of Helena , who found the Crosse of Christ , faith , Arnob. l. 8. Shee found the title , and worshipped the King , but not the wood . Ambros de Obit . Theo●os . For this were a Gentile errour , and a venity of the wicked , They anointed the sicke at the beginning of their sicknesse in the part grieued to ease them , as Gregory Turoneusis saith . Hist. Franc. l. 6. c. 7. But you to conferre grace at the end of sicknesse , when there is no more hope of life . They did not pray to the Saints departed , as able to heare them ; but in their soliloquies by way of consabulation through a Prosopopeia . For they held , that the Saints departed could not heare them : witnesse Saint Augustine , who to proue , that they know not what is done , ox said here , bringeth in that place of Esai . L. de Cura . pr● mont . c. 13. 63. Abraham knoweth vs not : and 2 King . 22. I will gather thee to thy Fathers , that thy eyes may not see the ewill to come . And they did commonly hold then , that all the faithfull departed remained in some secret place out of heauen , where they had not the sight of God ; as Iren. l. 5. Iust. Martyr . qu. 60. & 76. Orig. Hom. 7. in Leuit. Chrys. Hom. 38. in 1 Cor. &c. And for worship they gaue them none , neither Doulia , nor Latria . For so saith the same Augustine . They are to be honoured for imitation , not bee worshipped for Religion . Aug. de vera relig. c. 55. And he vseth the very word , expressing Doulia . Wee honour the Saints with charitis , not with seruice . Neither did they vse praying to them in their publique seruice . For so also Saint Augustine saith . Aug. de Cinit . Dei lib. 22. c. 10. The Martyrs are named at our sacrifice , as men of God , that haue ●uercome the world , but they are not called vpon by the Priest that sacrificeth . But you pray vnto them in all your Liturgyes , and worship them with Doulia . And for all other things by you alledged , though they haue been anciently vsed , yet their beginning is not vnknowne vnto vs .

Elym .

But you haue not yet answered my argument , prouing , that our case and theirs is all one . For admit , that there were some little difference , yet this cannot conclude against vs , as no Church , if they were a true Church , seeing wee agree together in one kinde of seruice .

Paul .

They agreed not with you in errours against the foundation , and therefore were not implicated in the same danger , as euen in this about the Saints departed , where the chiefe danger lyeth , viz. in worshipping them , and trusting to them , as to Mediators , that shall preuaile , and that haue power to helpe . But you shall not thus put me from the first thing propounded : viz. to shew the beginning of these superstitions . Pope Alexander first instituted Holy Water , Anno 115. Sabel . Tom. 1. Concil. Pope Hig●●● Chry●●ne in Baptisme , Anno 141. Euseb. lib. 4 c. 10. An Exorcift was first ordained by Pope Caius , Anno 283. Sabel . The signe of the Crosse was not vsed , but for signification 300 yeares ; or if for blessing , with inuocation vpon him that was crucified , the trust not being in it , but in Christ crucified . A materiall Crosse or Crucifixe , was not set vp till 400 yeares after Christ : neither was it appointed , till Anno 710 , when the Trullan Councell ordained , Cap. 82. Policbron l. 5. c. 12. Can. 15. that Christ should bee pictured hanging vpon the Crosse . The first Crosse erected in England , was Anno 635 , in the time of King Oswald . In the fift Carth. Councell , Anno 409. the worshipping of Saints Reliques , is declared to be heathenish : and supplication was made to the Emperour , that Reliques should be abolished , In a Councell at Laodu●ea , Anno 368 , the worshipping of Angels is condemned , as horrible idolatry . Petrus Gnapheus is no●ed to bee the first , that brought inuocation vpon the Saints into the publique seruice , Anno 500 : Niceph. l. 15 c. 28. and at euery turne the mention of the Mother of our Lord . And about Anno 600 , Pope Gregory the first appointed your Liturgy with prayers to all the Saints , as now it is . Anthony was the first that renouncing the world , led a solitary life in the Wildernesse , because of the hot persecutions of the Church , Anno 300. For so Frising saith ; Lib. 4. cap. 5. There were in these dayes famous Princes of Cbrists Kingdome , Paul and Antony the first Eremites . And Basilius first built Monasteries : Basil . Epis● . 63. for hee saith that the Neocesareaus obiected vnto him the newnesse of a Monasticall life . Eustatius an Hereticke extolled a Monasticall life , and condemned mariage , holding it necessary to saluation , to forsake all and to turne Monke . Against him a Councell was assembled at Gangra , Anno 324 , and his opinions were condemned , where they professed , that they honoured true Virginity , and withall the chaste bond of mariage , &c. Auticular confession to a Priest began not , till An. 800. It was first appointed in Concil. Cabiloneusi 2. c. 32. and coneil . Mogunt . in the time of Gregory 4. c. 26. Before if it were vsed , yet it was not inioyned , yea , warning was giuen against it . Chrys. hom. 4. de Laz. Chrysostome saith ; Take heed that thou tell not thy sinnes to man , lest bee vpbraid thee ; but shew thy wounds to the Lord , Scal paradisi Grad . that hath a care of thee , that is gentle , that is the Physitian . And Iohannes Climacus , An. 580. Before all things , let vs confesse our sinnes onely to the Lord our iudge , and bee ready at his command to confesse them to all men . And with confession began workes of penance . For before , Chrysostome speaking , how a man might attaine peace with God , saith , Hee hath not commanded thee to passe ouer the Mountaines , Chrys. in Math. Hom. 55. to sayle ouer the Seas , to digge so much ground , to remaine fasting , or to put on sackcloth ; but to giue of that which thou hast vnto the poore .

Serg. Paul .

But seeing you acknowledge most of these things to be very ancient , and the Fathers which subscribed vnto them with the Church in their dayes , to be the true Church of God : Why haue you vtterly abolished all these things ? Had it not been better to haue restored them onely to that state wherein they were in the time of the Fathers , cutting off the accessions that haue since been made ?

Paul .

No , by no meanes , for it would not haue beene so safe to hold these customes after their manner , seeing they haue since proued rootes of most pestilent weeds , lest in time , there should bee danger of the same euils comming on againe . Euen as it is no wisedome in taking away B●yars and Thornes off a ground , to preserue the rootes still . For from their praying for the dead to expresse their affection , if happily they might increase their ioyes , or mitigate their paines , sprung an opinion of a third place , wherein the soules of the faithfull are tormented , but may bee holpen out by praying for them . From vsing a crosse in the aire for commemoration of their Christian profession , sprung confidence , and adoration of the Crosse . From mentioning the Saints departed ouer their altars , praising God for them , sprung praying vnto them . From annoiling to heale sicknesse of the body , sprung annoiling to conferre grace to the soule . From a Monasticall life taken vp for necessity , sprung vp an opinion of the necessity of a Monkish life in all , that would be perfect , and of the merit hereof .

Serg. Paul .

You haue not yet shewed the first broaching of that doctrine touching freewill , instification by workes in part , vncertainty of faith , of perfection , the merit of workes , and of workes of supererrogation : nor of Christs satisfaction onely for eternall punishments , which you shewed did chiefely pull downe the foundation . I pray you therefore now shew the beginning of these points also .

Paul .

This whole brood was hatched almost at one time , viz. of the Schoolemen about Anno 1200 , or of the Councell of Trent , Anno 1500. That man hath freewill to desire to trune vnto God , as one wounded and halfe dead hath to be succoured , was vtterly reiected by the Fathers , especially after that occasion was giuen by Pelagius an Hercticke , to looke more narrowly into the truth hereabout . Before , they speake somewhat vncertainly ; De Sp. & lib. c. 3. de dogmat . Ecclesiae c. 27. Cont. Epist. 2. Pelag. l. 3 c. 8. but then Augustine saith ; Freewill anatleth to nothing but to sinne . And againe , A holy thought , a good purpose , a godly counsell , and euery motion of a good wil is from God . And againe , freewill anaileth to nothing but to sinne . And with him consenteth Ierome against Pelagius : and Prosper , and Chrysostome who saith , that wicked men are altogether dead . Yea , to the dayes of Bernard the same was held . For he saith , We haue power to will , Barn . de gra & lib. arbuitrio . but neither good nor euill : to will good is a profect , to will euill is a defect . O — r freewill maketh vs willing , but grace well willing . And nothing is more frequent amongst the Fathers , then to teach , that whatsoeuer proccedeth from a naturall man is sinne . Ieron . in Gal c. 3. Heare Ierome for all , who saith , without Christ all vertue is vice . This point then is not yet foure hundred yeares old .

Elymas .

Nothing was more frequent in the mouths of the Fathers before Pelagius , then freewill . Apol. 1. Lib 4 c. 71. Iustin Martyr saith , that there were nothing in men worthy of praise , if they had not equall power to turne themselues either way . Ireneus saith ; Man hath power to choose , euen as the Augels . Wherefore their impugning of freewill afterwards was to bee imputed to the heat of their opposition made to Pelagius , who taug●● that men had power to turne to God , and to keepe his ●●mmandements out of the libertie of their free-will .

Paul .

That which you alleage touching their oppugning Pelagius , may much more truely bee applyed about their sayings , wherein they seeme to be for the freedome of mans will : for they had to doe with the Marcionitel , and Mannichces , who held a necessity of all things wherby men were caried either to good or euill ; and hence it came to passe , that they vttered such sayings as these : but when they saw the danger of the Heresie touching free will ensuing , they laboured by speaking against it to quite themselues from the least aspersion this way .

Serg. Paul .

And truely this is most likely : for the proper time for a man to expresse what he holdeth , is then , when disputation is moued about it , whereas be speaketh not so warily at other times , when be feareth not that any hold will bee taken vpon his sayings against the truth . And I am the rather perswaded , that they were against all liberty of the will vnto good , because they so consentingly taught , that euery thing proceeding from a naturall man before his conuersion is sinne .

Paul .

Touching iustification by workes , or by inherent righteousnesse , and not onely by the righteousnesse . of Christ imputed by faith , none euer taught it , till An. 1500. For Christs righteousnesse onely hath euer heene rested vpon by the Fathers : Ieron in 2 Cor. 5. in ● Cor. 1. Ierome saith , Christ hath so receued the name of sinne , as we are made the righteousnesse of God in him , not ours , nor in vs . Ambrose sayth , This is appointed of God , that he which beloeueth in Christ should be saued without workes , hauing his sinnes freely forgiuen through faith onely . And Chrysostome sayth , In Rom. 3. Hom 7. Epist. 190. So soone as a man beleeueth , he is iustified . Bernard saith , Another mans righteousnesse is assigned vnto man , because he wanted his owne , the satisfaction of one is imputed to vs all .

Elym .

But there is a double iustification : the first , which is onely by faith , and hereby a man passeth from the state of sin into the estate of grace : and the second , which is by inmherent righteousnesse , whereby a man of iust becommeth more iust and worthy of heauen . And of the first of these onely the Fathers spake , not of the other .

Paul .

They could not well speake of that , seeing it was vnknowne in their dayes , and long since inuented . And touching the merit of the best mans righteousnesse . Bernard doth vtterly deny it , saying , The merits of men are not such , Bernard Ser. 1. de An●●n . as that for them eternall life should be due of right ; or so as that God should be vniust , if he did not therefore bestow eternall life : for to say nothing , that allour merits are Gods gifts , and so man is for them a debter vnto God , not God vnto man ; what are all merits to so great glory ? Wherefore if meriting bee spoken of by the Fathers , they meant nothing else but to preuaile or obtaine , or else they called good works merits , to set forth their dignity in respect of the diuine acceptance , that men might be incouraged hereunto .

Elym .

You doe altogether peruert their meaning : for they taught good workes in the regenerate to be properly meritorious , seeing perfect righteousnes according to the law is worthy of heauen , and such righteousnesse they taught , that men through the grace of God inabling them , did attaine vnto in this life , yea and that they could doe and did more then the law required , and so merited for others also .

Paul .

You doe most impudently wrong the Fathers : for none till aboue 1000 yeares after Christ , taught perfection of degrees in this life , but onely perfection through Christ , and a comparatiue perfection , some exceeding others ; but altogether against it . Saint . Angustine saith , Charity , Epist. 29. ad Hieron . that cannot be increased is in no man bere , and that which may bee increased is in fault , because it is lesse , then it ought to be , by reason of which fault there is no man iust and sinneth not , by reason of which fault no liuing man shall bee iustified in the sight of God . And Ierome saith , to affirme that any man liueth so , as that he is without sinne , is to take man out of man , and to affirme that a man in the body is without the body , Ierom contra Pelag. Epist. and rather to wish then to teach . And if they held , that no man can perfectly keepe the Law , then it is certaine , that they taught not , that men could both doe all that the Law requireth , and more also . If then they haue spoken any thing , wherein they may seeme to be for supererogation , it is to be vnderstood either of outward things , or of some speciall commendable thing , which is not commonly commanded to all , but commended to some . And so their doing more then is required was onely with reference vnto others ; who did not likewise as not hauing that particular gift , Hom. 3. in 1. Cor. or in exterials , wherein Chrysostom saith , euen the Philosophers exceeded the Commandement of God .

Serg. Paul .

I like this your interpretation of the Fathers very well , and am hereby perswaded , that both perfect keeping of the Law and workes of supererrogation are nouelties . Proced therefore to vncertainty of faith .

Paul .

This vncertainty was not determined , not certainty of faith condemned , before the Councell of Trent Anno 1500. The Fathers are most plaine for assurance by faith . Aug. Tract 75. in Johan . August : saith , Christ is now in vs , and we in him , but we beleeue this now , then wee shall know it , although we know it now also through beleeuing , but then we shall know it by bebolding it . Regist. lib. 6.187 . Gregory saith ; The soule that thirsteth after God is first pricked with feare , then with loue , but when seare hath beene consumed with long anxiety of sorrow , a certaine security of presumption of pardon doth arise . Hom. 14. in Rom. 8. And Chrysostome sayth : The supreme Essence , which doth also bestow what it promiseth , testifying vnto vs , who can any more doubt of this dignity hereafter ? And Bernard exhorteth to beleeue without doubting , Bern in Cant. Serm. 8. Whatsoeuer soule of you feeleth at any time in the secret of his conscience the Spirit of the Sonne crying Abba Father , let it presume that it is beloued with afatherly affection , and beleeue , doubting nothing .

Elym .

They meant nothing else , but certainty on Gods part , but because man is mutable , and all promiser runne vpon condition of his perseuerance , they haue plainely taught elsewhere , that none can be certaine by faith . Heare August . for all , who sayth . Who of all the multitude of beleeuers can presume that he is in the number of beleeuers as long as he is in this mortality .

Paul .

They spake in this manner to preuent carnall security , which followeth vpon presumption , but they neuer impugned , but incouraged to assurance by faith .

Serg. Paul .

There remaineth now onely one point , wherein I desire to heare you speake , viz. that of satis faction .

Paul .

And this is none of their least errors , that Christ satisfied onely for eternall punishments , but for temporall due vnto vs for sinne we our selues are to satisfie : for as it is a plaine derogation from the dignity of his passions . Touching this therefore I say , as of the former points it was not taught anciently , but the plaine contary : Tertullian saith , Tertul. de Baptis . Guiltinesse being taken away , the punishment is also taken away ; and that he may not seeme to speake of eternall punishments onely , hee nameth death , according as it was threatned , Gen. 2.17 . In the day that thou catest of it , thou shalt dye the death , which death here comprehendeth all punishments . And Saint Augustine sayth , E●cbit . c. 70. Christ by taking vpon him the punishment , and not the fault , hath done away both fault and punishment : Aug. de verb. Dom. Scr. 37. and elsewhere more expresly ; Christ had two good things , righteousnesse , and immortality , wee two euill things , sinne and wortality , the one hee tooke vpon him , the other he did not , and by taking vpon him the one , he freed vs from both . As for satisfaction required of vs , it is not , as he sheweth , for punishment , but to shew our repentance by our outward actions . So that according to August . wee are deliuered from mortality as a punishment , and not only from hell fire .

Elym .

Howsoeuer you seeme to make these learned Fathers to speake , it is plaine , that they meant onely eternall punishments , borne by Christ for vs . And therefore they doe vsually speake of works of penance and almes , as hauing force to purge and wash away sinne . Chrysostome sayth , Hom. 1. in Gen. The common Lord of vs all , desirous to haue all our sinnes washed away , hath inuented this cure , which is made by fasting . Lib. de promis & prad . part. 2. c. 2. Hom. 1. And Prosper saith , Almes cleanse the whole man . And Cesarius sayth , that a man who by sinning hath lost himselfe , doth agains redeeme himselfe by his satisfaction .

Paul .

Where is there a word in all these touching satisfaction for temporall punishments ? It may rather bee inferred , if these speeches be strictly taken , that wee are able to doe something to deliuer our selues from sinne , both in respect of guilt and punishment temporall & eternall . Wherefore it must needs bee yeelded , that these things were spoken improperly , that being ascribed to the instrument or meanes , which is proper vnto Christ . Satisfaction therefore , as it is now taught in your Church , is rather to bee referred to the Lateran Councell , Anno 1215 , wherein the sacrament of penance was established , an appendix whereof is satisfaction .

Elym .

Because you haue spoken of the sacrament of penance first appointed in the Lateran Councell , I will lay hold vpon the occasion to put you to proue the nouelty of the seuen sacraments : for if seuen haue beene anciently acknowledged , this is not so new , as you would make the world beleeue .

Paul .

I am very willing to follow you herein , and let the issue rest vpon my prouing your seuen Sacraments to be nouelties . I say then , that this number was not knowne , nor acknowledged by antiquity , but was first taught by Peter Lombard and the Schoole-men following him , aboue 1000 yeares after Christ . Epist. 118. Saint Augustine sayth , the Sacraments of the New Testament are most few in number . Isidorus An. 600 sayth , Lib. 6 Originum c. 19. Pasc . de Caena . The Sacraments are Baptisme and Chrisme , and the body and blood of Christ . And Pascasius Anno 900 ; sayth likewise .

Elym .

They say , these two are the chiefe indeed , but they exclude not the rest . Hugo de Sancto Victore teacheth seuen sacraments , and of them he saith some are the principall , wherein saluation standeth , Lib. de sacram . 7. part. 9. c. 6. viz. Baptisme and the Supper of the Lord ; the rest though they bee not so necessary , yet they profit vnto sanctification . And I could easily shew , that the ancientest Fathers haue called euery of these Sacraments .

Paul .

I grant you without shewing , that they called them sacraments , and so they called any holy signe , according to Augustines definition ; August . Epist. 5. Euery holy sigue is a Sacrament . But that there are any more , then two , properly so called , they neuer taught , and euen your Hugo , who acknowledgeth 7 , can be no ground for your 7 , for he reckoneth not penance for one , but the water of aspersion . And the very Schoolemen deny the rest to be sacraments , Lib. 4.26 . properly so called . P. Lombard denyeth Matrimony to be a Sacrament properly and vniuocally with the other sacraments , and Durand likewise vpon that place . Lib. 4. dist. 24. The same Lombard denyeth ordination to bee properly a sacrament , and Alexander de Hales , and Thomas Aquinas vpon that place , &c.

Serg. Paul .

This your dispute about the Sacraments hath brought to my mind another point yet ●●toucht about the holy Scriptures and Traditions . Can you shew , that it is a noueliy is hold , that together with the Canonical Scriptures , Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued , and vnwritten traditions , as a rule of our saith , or hath it euer beene held thus ?

Paul .

It is a nouelty to hold , that the Scriptures doe not containe in them all things necessary to saluation , and that Apocryphall bookes are to be receiued as Canonicall , and that traditious are necessary to saluation . For the Fathers sought to hold all men onely to the Scriptures : Hom. 1. in Psal. 95. Chrysostome saith , If any thing bee spoken without Scripture , the thought of the bearers limpeth , sometimes yeelding , and sometime doubting . And againe , If ye hears any saying , I haue the holy Spirit , Serm. de S. Sp. but not speaking out of the Gospell , bee speaketh of himselfe , and the holy Spirit is not in him . So Basil , reg. Mor. 8. & 28. Epist. 80. And touching Apocryphall books , Cyril . Hierusalym , sayth ; Haus nothing to doe with Apocryphall bookes . Catee . 4. but read the canonicall which are considently read in the Church . The Apostles and first Bishops were much wiser and more religious then thou , who deliuered the scriptures vnto vs . Doe not thou therefore , seeing thou art a child of the Church , ges beyond their bounds . Athen in Synop. Athanasius sayth , There are 22 bookes of the old Testament Canonicall , but there are other bookes which are not Canonicall , which are onely read of the Catecumeni , as the booke of Wisdome , Ecclesiasticus , &c. Ierom calleth the History of Susamus , Prafat . in Den. of Bel and the Dragon fables , and saith the same was the opinion of Eusebius , Apollinarius , Methodius , &c. Baruch was not receiued as Canonicall till the Councell of Florence , Anno 1439. And touching vnwritten traditions , they receiued none of old , but either such as were consonant to the holy Scriptures , which were written in sense , though not in word , according to Augustine , of which was the baptisme of Infants and not to rebaptize : De Gen , ad lit . lib. 10 c. 23. Tertul de Coron. c. 23. or customes in indifferent things according to Tertullian , who saith , Dost thou not thinke , that it is lawfull for euery faithfull Church to conceiue and constituent that which agreeth to God , 〈◊〉 to diseiplione , and profireth 〈◊〉 solnation ? And these by the prestice of your owne Church may be left off again . For the thrice dipping in Baptisin , standing in time of prayer vpon the Lords day , tasting of milke and honcy in Baptisme , &c. anciently receiued , are now abrogated , and not held to bind .

Elym .

I could reioyne with you about this argument , and bring many passages of the Fathers shewing their high esteeme of traditions : but lest these disputes should proue tedious to this noble person , and that he may not , being fascinated with that which you haue said , incline to your colourable Heresies , I say that all , which you haue produced to disgrace the Catholike Religion as nouell , are nothing but cauils . For if our Religion be new , and so faire degenerated , as that the foundation is hereby ouerthrowne , there was no Religion , and so no true Church of God in the world for many hundred yeares , seeing by your owne confession , the Church which was aboue 1000 or 1300 yeares agoe , had many customes , and held many things which you doe not at this day . And with what face then can you alledge them , as being on your side so commonly as you doe , as though your Church were all one with theirs , when as it is plaine to any that will vnderstand , that they are our Fathers , and not yours ; and such as suffered death , our Martyrs , sealing vp with their blood the Romane Cathohke Religion , and not your new deuised way of seruing God without crossing , Chrysme , Holy water , Prayers for the dead , deuotion to the Saints , &c. and full of carnall liberty , in all things pleasing to the flesh , as mariages of Priests , and worldly liuing of all , without any renouncing of secular affaires for the seruice of God , and repenting only with a little griefe , no workes of penance being after required , with many other points of licentiousnesse . If any held with this Religion in all these points , tell who they were , when and where they liued , if you can , till within these hundred yeares , and that is as late as the newest of our points , to grant you your owne saying .

Paul .

Neuer were any so iustly to bee taxed for cauilling , as you : for what can it else bee , when all your points , in that manner you hold them , haue beene plainly shewed to bee new , to fly to this generall reason for euasion ? The Church in the time of these ancients , was the same with ours in all matters of faith , as I haue fully declared , neither can a few ceremonies since , more corrupted , and therefore by vs abolished , estrange our Church from theirs , no more then the breaking downe of the brasen Serpent , and seruing God without it in Hezekiahs dayes , estranged the Church then from the Church in the time of Moses . As for the holy Martyrs , it is a most vaine bragge that they sealed your Religion with their blood , which was not then in question . It was rather our Religion , that they sealed , seeing they commonly suffered for such zeale to Christ , as that together with him they would not worship Idols , as we also refuse to doe . For holding the same points with vs in euery particular , it is not necessary to shew any that did , it is sufficient to proue our Religion true , and Apostolicall , to haue shewed the rising vp of all those rites , that we ahue done away , to haue beene long after the Apostles dayes . And for carnall liberty , whereby you seeke to disgrace the truth , herein you blaspheme the very liberty of the Gospell , after the manner of the malicious Pharisees , who cryed out vpon Christ ; Behold a glution , and drinker of wine , a friend of Publicans and sinners . When hee did no more then hee might in taking liberty herein . For euen so wee maintaine liberty of mariage to all men , and reiect your superstitious austerities ; because mariage is honourable amongst all men , and wee would not through a multitude of obseruances make Christs easie yoake and light burden , heauy , Heb. 13.4 . like to that vnder the Law , of which Saint Peter complaineth that it was such , that neither we , nor our Fathers were able to beare . Act. 15.10 . And if experience may be heard , this your taking vpon you to be stricter then God , shall bee abundantly conuinced to opon a farre wider gap to licentiousnesse , seeing all he world ringeth of the carnality , vncleannesse , and dissolutenesse of your very votaries and Priests , and of Rome it selfe aboue all . And it is obserued , that your very Confessions and appointments of penance is turned into a fountaine of liberty , seeing more rioes and disorders are against the time of shrift in Italy comitted , then all the yeare before .

Serg. Paul .

But can you not show any that were of your reformed Religion for substance and matter of faith from the time of the ancient Fathers , till Luther . That was a very long distance of time of about 1000 yeares . Doe you hold that God was without a true visible Church all this time ?

Paul .

God was neuer without a true Church , neither was she hid long at any time : For till the Pope was made an Idoll , and idolatry with Images , and with the Masse tooke place in the Church , and the Virgin Mary was made ioynt mediator with Christ , it was a true Church , which was till about Anno 700. And when the Latine Church was by these abhominations corrupted , the Greek Church still continued more sound : for they withstood the Popes supremacy , opposed images , held no transubstantiation ; neither subscribed to the points maintained by the Romanists , till the Councell of Florence , Anno 1439 , at what time I haue also shewed , how much this subscription was mis-liked by the body of that Church . So that if no where else , yet in Grecia the true Church was to be found , till then . But there wanted not oppugners of Images , and of the Popes supremacy in other places at the same times . The Councell of Franckford was famous for determining against Images , as I haue also declared . Betweene 700 and Anno 800 Albertus Gallus a French Bishop opposed himselfe against the Pope in his Legate Boniface , Hist. Magd. Cent. 8. c. 10. and with him one Clemens a presbyter , and Saemson , who were therefore excommunicated by the Pope , and imprisoned . And about the same time Iohan Mailrosius and Claudius Clemens sent from Scotland , & first Professors of learning in the Vniuersity of Paris , denyed to subscribe to the Romish superstitions . Betweene 800 and 900 Claudius Taurinensis Bishop of Thurin in Piemont , denyed the Pope , to bee an Apostolike Bishop , for he is not , sayd he , an Apostolike Bishop , that sitteth in the Apostolike chaire , but that fulfilleth an Apostolike office . Whights way to the Church . p. 386. He cast images out of the Church , and impugned the worshipping of the crosse . About that time were Ioh. Scotus also and Bertram that denyed the reall presence , Anno 847.

Thergandus Bishop of Treniris inueighed against Pope Nicolas , calling him Antichrist , Auentin : Reginold . lib. 2. for which he was excommunicated , and afterwards staine . Betweene An. 900 and ●000 , Otho impugned the supremacy , Uhite ibid. and Arnulphus called the Pope Antichrist . Betweene An. 1000 and 1100 , Berengarius impugned the reall presence , of whom I haue already spoken . About that time Leaskerius an Archbishop in France was of the same opinion . Berweene An. 1100 , and 1200. A certaine Bishop of Florence preached , Hist. Magd. Cent. 12. that Antichrist was come , in the time of Pascalis the second . Also one Francis an Abbor , and Petrus do Beuis a Priest , impugned the reall presence , with many other Popish points : and Bernard is famous for many points against Popery . Betweene Anno 1200 , Hist Magd. Cent. 13. c. 2. and 1300 , Gulielm . de Sancto amers , was banished for an heretike and had his bookes burnt ; and Robert Grosted Bishop of Lincolne , greatly opposed the Pope . Between An. 1300 and 1400 , was Iohn Wickliffe professor of diuinitie in Oxford , who opposed the Pope in sundry points . Hist. Magd. Cent. 14. And out of Greece came diuers by reason of the Turkish tyranny , amongst whom Marsilius Patauinus was of most note : he , maintained that the Pope had no power ouer other Bishops , much lesse ouer Kings . Armachanus an Archb. in Ireland , and Iohannes de Rupeseissa were of the same opinion also . And after this Iohn Husse , and Ierome of Prague , with almost all the country of Bohemia , were famous for standing for the truth .

Serg. Paul .

But these were but a few in an age , neither could they make a Church : how hapned it , that there were no more till . Wickliffes time ?

Paul .

Where Bishops and learned teachers haue been stirred vp to stand for the truth , there is no doubt , but as lights of the world they did inlighten many more , though they be to vs vnknowne . Neither was the mysterie of iniquity growne to that height till about Wickliffes time , and the dayes of the succeeding Worthies , so that the Romane religion was not altogether so dangerous : but now they being almost quite gone from Christ , their superstitious deuotion increasing towards the Virgin Mary , and the rest of the Saints , satisfying for a mans owne sins in part , being taught , and the merit of workes , and freedome of will set vp , and the assurance of faith condemned , and such horrible idolatry with the Masse more then euer committed , they which had the Spirit of God in any measure within them could no longer forbeare , but in great companies vtterly separate from the Church of Rome , lest whilst they would bee worshippers of Christ , they should become limmes of Antichrist , to the destruction of their soules .

Elymas .

Nay rather are ye now become limmes of Antichrist , by following Martin Luther a Monke , that brake his Vow , and maried a Nunne , & was of a notorious wicked life , and had consultation with the Deuill , and so went to the Deuill at the last : and by following King Henry 8 , a man so sensuall and tyranicall ; for these and such like were your leaders to this Schisme , and not any good Spirit , as yee pretend .

Paul .

In seeking to wound the truth through the sides of these men , you doe but according to your accustomed manner , it being one of the Pillars of your Religion , to lay slanderous imputations vpon your Aduersaries , as a late Writer of ours hath notably shewed . Willet Tetrastul . Papismi . But as for Martin Luther , it is well knowne , that he was a man of great zeale for the truth , and succeeded accordingly ; your Pope and all your power not being able to lay violent hands vpon him , but that hee was preserued to dye in peace . If there were any thing taxable in him , in what holy man hath there not beene likewise it is no preiudice to the truth , which hee stood for : no more , then Saint Pauls forepassed persecuting and blaspheming was to the Gospel . And for King Henry 8 , God can vse any instrument to beat down the pride of such an enemy as the Pope , as be vsed Nebuchadnezzar to chastice idolatrous Iudah , and the Syrian Presidents , and Romane Emperours , to destroy Christs enemies , and to abrogate the legall seruice by burning vp the Temple , and yet this made nothing the more for the credit of the Iewes Religion , or discredit of the Christian thus aduanced . But because you haue giuen mee so iust occasion , I say that if the wickednesse and miscrable ends of chiefe erectors of any Religion , be an argument of a bad religion , as vndoubtedly it is , the Religion of the Church of Rome is abundantly conuinced to bee such ; seeing so many Poper haue beene so notoriously wicked , and perished so miserably , and such apparant iudgements haue beene executed vpon others , that hath holpen to aduance it . Gregory the third , who drew vp the Popedome to such a high pin , was a most wicked man : for when Phocas , who had murthered Mauricius , Platina . and was therefore greatly taxed by the Patriarke of Constantinople , for which hee was much offended with him , hee sent his image to Rome , and Gregory receiued it honourably , and flattereth with this parricide , but inioyed not long the honour of vniuersall Bishop thus attained , for he dyed within nine moneths after . And Phocas the founder of the primacy proued soone after a slothfull beast , Pompon . Latus Paul . Diacon . cruelly murthering many of the Nobles , rauishing many Matrons and Virgins , wallowing in dayly drunkennesse , and acocrdingly was rewarded . For hee was taken by Priscus , and Heracleon , and his hands being fast cut off , then his priuy member , he was beheaded , and his body burnt in a brazen Bull , R. Barus supplem . Chron. Nancl. and all his posterity destroyed with him . Siluester the second was a Coniurer , and was slaine by the Deuil , Iob. Marius . when he was saying Masse in the Chappell of the Crosse of Ierusalem . Iohn the 13 committed Incest with two of his Sifters , and was slaine at the last in the act of Adultery . Gregory the seuenth put out the eyes of Iohn the 15 , and killed him with famine in the Castle of Saint Angelo , that he might reigne in his stead ; and hauing laboured mightily to aduance the papall Sea , he was shortly cut off by a sudden death , and his body was drawne by the feet through the streets , Fascic . Temp. Otho 1. and pierced with speares by the Romanes . Whereupon the History called Fosciculus tempor●● , noreth , that the Bishops of Rome were now adayes slaine , as in the Primitiue Church , but were not made Martyrs as they , there was the like death , but not the like cause : thy suffered , as wailde lambes following the Lambr Christ , Plat. vit. pontif . these as ran●●ing Wolues an empting a new Empire . Gregory the ninth dyed in despaise . Boniface the eighth dyed of madnesse . Paul the second , hauing yoted as much as euer did Hesiegabalus dyed of an Apoplexy . Alexander the sixt committed Incest with his owne daughter , whom also he maried to his sonue , Pasquil . Natal . comes Hist. l. 4. and was at the last poysoned by him . Pius the fourth dyed in the very bosome of his Concubine . Paul the third , when he had waxed old in a filthy course of life , dyed , crying out , my sinne is alwayes against mee . And what should I reckon vp more : whoso desireth to read further of them , let him looke into Pelanus Dan. part 2. p. 467 : and Parker of the Grosse , who sheweth what whores , and Ganimedes by name , seuerall Popes haue had . Sergius had Marozia . Gregory the seuenth , Matildis . Alexander the sixt , Lucretia : all their daughters or Sisters . Sextus the fourth had for his Ganimede Riarius . Iulius the second , Germanus . Leo the tenth , Hypolitus . Iulius the third , Innocentius , &c. And Napier , who in his exposition vpon the Rouelation reckoneth vp the number of most notorious wicked Popes . Napier Reuel . p. 138. There haue beene thirteene adulterers : Three common Stewes-haunters : foure incestuous persons : eleuen Sodomiticall persons : seuen erectors of Stewes , and two and twenty Necromancers . And Henricus Echartus , who in his booke called Papa Pharisaizans reckoneth vp the vilest heresies , wherwith Popes haue been tainted . Some Sadduces , some Montanists , Arrians , Nestorians , Eutychians , and Epicures , and patrons of wickednesse . Innocent 4 , defended for gold any luxury in the Clergie . Sixtus 4 gaue liberty of Sodometry to the Cardinals . Alexander 4 sent into England for money , absolution to all periured and wicked persons .

Serg Paul .

Are these things true ? is it possible , that so many monsters should sit in the Apostolike chaire ? yet it is true , the office doth not priuiledge from sinne , alse Iudas being an Apostle should not haue been a Deuill , As Iudas therefore was no preiudice to the Apostolicall office , no more it may bee are some wicked Popes to the religion by them maintained . Else by the like reason the wickednesse of some of your Bishops & Ministers would be an argument against your religion .

Paul .

For the truth of these things I haue alledged my authors ; who in these sifting times would not haue written thus , if they could haue been disproued , And howsoeuer the wickednesse of ordinary persons of the Clergy or Laity cannot minister an argument against their religion ; yet when one , that is aboue all , & as an Oracle , giueth Edicts to all , and guideth the ship as he pleaseth , is noto●iously wicked : there needs no greater argument of a wicked religion . Because the religion professed by vs is not founded vpon the Bishop or Minister , but vpon Gods Word ; but the religion of the Church of Rome is founded vpon the Pope , seeing it is their common Plea , that their Church is founded vpon S. Peter , and his successors . Such then as the Pope is , such must the religion built vpon him needs bee ; for so much as the building alwayes standeth and falleth with the foundation . It is a silly shift to say , he may erre , as he is a man in manners , but not as Pope in doctrine . For what ground can there be , that the holy Ghost will dwell to direct in the truth vpon all occasions , in a nasty sty of vncleane spirits ? For how is the holy Spirit , if not by abominable sinnes , quenched and chaced away ? It is a priuiledge of such as feare God , Psal. 25.12 . to be directed in the right ; and not of Balaam , or Caiaphas , though they might ex●raordinarily prophesie as Balaams Asse spake .

Elywas .

You must not thinke yet to beare vs down thus , as Antichristian and abominable in our religion : no , no , although all were , as you haue said , yet wee want not the strongest argument of all , which must stop all mouths , the very finger of God , which hath often manifested it selfe , miracles wrought at Saints sepulchres , and images , by exorcising of Priests to the casting out of Deuils , by Crosses , and Holy Water , which haue often put the Deuill to flight ; and almost all points of our religion haue beene confirmed by miraculous reuelations , to some holy persons of vnsuspected credit , who haue vpon their faith affirmed the same .

Paul .

These miracles make much on your side indeed , to proue your religion Antichristian , Thes. Reuel . and your Pope Antichrist , seeing it is said , that he should come with lying wonders , and should cause fire to come downe from heauen , to these ducing of many ? Miracles indeed had their vse in the first propagating of the Gospell : 1 Cor. 14. but they were for vnbeleeuers , smce they haue ceased as needlesse , euen as ( to vse the similitude of Gregory ) the husbandman hauing newly planted an Orchard , watereth it : But when it is well rooted , hee watereth it no more . Deut. 23. If any giue a signe amongst the people of God , to proue any new matter in religion , not propounded in the written Word of God , hee is pronounced a false Prophet . Moreouer , many of your miracles haue been proued coosenages , by which we may ghesse what the rest are : and for reuelations , they may well bee counted rather delusions of Satan , who is ready to tempt men according to their humours , and superstitious Monkes to more superstitions .

Serg. Paul .

Are miracles then of so little force now ? What meaneth our Saniour Christ when hee maketh this a signe of the true faith ? Mark . 16.17 . He that beleeueth , these signes shall follow , he shall cast out Deuils , lay his hands vpon the sicke and heale them , &c.

Paul .

Miracles were very frequent indeed then , as was needfull : but it was not to bee expected , that these signes should follow alwayes , when al countreys and Nations being conuerted , the truth had gotten other sufficient testimonie without signes . Onely God doth something miraculously oftentimes for the credit of his Gospell in all ages , as by punishing extraordinarily the enemies of his truth , and blessing such as fauour it . Thus the persecuting Emperors were extraordinarily iudged ; and the first Christian Emperor extraordinarily blessed , in that they all for the space of three hundred yeares liued most turbulent liues , had most vnquiet estates , and almost all of them suffered by violent deaths , after a short raigne : but Constantine the first Christian Emperour liued long , was euery where victorious , and then reigned in peace , and dyed in peace . And of these miracles , blessed be God , we are full in this kingdome : for Queene Mary that stood for Poperie , had but a short time , was extraordinarily disappointed of the hoped for successor of her owne body , to the amazement of all , and so was cut off in the prime of her age . But Queene Elizabeth of blessed memory , had a long time , and the diuine protection did compasse her about as a shield against all treasons , and conspiracies ; so that they were miraculously disappointed , and hauing reigned in peace , inticht her kingdom more then euer , abated the pride of her enemies , and mightily succoured other distressed Protestants , in a good old age she departed in peace . And since that time our gracious King , that now raigneth , whom God long preserue : how miraculously both he and we all vnder him haue beene deliuered ; and in what peace he hath and doth still gouerne such mighty Nations , like another Salomon in such tumultuous times : it is so well knowne , that I shall not need to speake . And that blow , which your Religion had at Blacke-Friers , October 26 of this yeare , by the onely hand of God , both Teacher and people , to the number of about an hundred persons , being suddenly cut off at one of your Sermons : and the first , that hath beene publike to our Country-men , since the suppression of Pope y , and that vpon your Nouember 5 , at what time our ouerthrow ( thankes bee to God ) was in another yeare in vaine attempted : that , I say , the like whereof was neuer heard , was a very miracle to the confounding of your superstitions , which you thought by degrees to bring in here againe , and to crowde out the truth . For howsoeuer we are all to tremble , and to take occasion to repent by Gods iudgements ; yet when Corah , Dathan and Abiram with their company , are in the very offering of their incense destroyed ; their seruice as a conspiracy is confounded , that all men may take heed of it , and the seruice of Moses and Aaron honoured . I could ascend higher to times past , and shew miracles in the fufferings of our Martyrs , and in the iudgements vpon your persecutors : and I could inlarge my selfe to speake of the miraculous preseruation of Geneua , and of the wonderfull successe of the Protestants in France in former times , and of some Kings there , and of the Bohemians in the time of Iohn Husse : and it shall suffice to haue giuen this taste at home , and so neare hand .

Elym .

These outward things are no proofes , Eccl 9.2 . seeing all things fall out alike vnto all . But in the midst of all your good successe , ye haue not been able to inlarge your Religion , but onely to a few countreys here in Europe : whereas the true Church is Catholike ouerspreading all Nations , which marke is in the Church of Rome , but not in yours .

Paul .

You abuse that Text of all things falling out alike to all . For that is spoken only of the godly , and the wicked , which are religious and care not for religion ; and not of those that are zealous for their religion , bee it true or false , when they are all bound to embrace the truth . For in this case God hath euer put a plaine difference betwixt those of his people that haue worshipped him aright , and that haue beene corrupted by idolatry , powring downe great and manifest blessings vpon the one sort , and apparant curses vpon the other , as it is at large set forth in the bookes of Iudges , Samuel and the Kings : thus as the great Vmpire ouer all , determining for the Truth , and against Errour . As for the Catholocisme , which you so much bragge of ; I haue already shewed , that Grecia a part of the world not the furthest remote , hath neuer wholly imbraced your Religion ; and by your cruclties your Church hath become so odious amongst the Indians , that they abhorre it therefore ; and it is notoriously knowne , that by your very images and faithlesnesse , the Turkes haue been hindred from ruining to Christianitie , and so haue the sca●tered Iewes . Our Church is Apostolike , as hath beene proued , and therefore Catholike , though the time is not yet come , since the reformation , of being inlarged to all parts , for so neither was Christianitie vpon the sudden , though caried forth by extraordinary instruments . But to yeeld the pretended vniuersality of your Church so corrupted : what tendeth this vnto indeed , but to proue your Church to bee spirituall Babel , and your Pope to be the whore of Babel , seeing as shee , so Rome sitteth as a Queene , and ruleth ouer the Nations of the earth .

Serg. Paul .

Fie , fie , Paul , this sauoureth rather of spleene , then of sound iudgement : for that Babylon is a persecuter of all Christians , and an open oppugner of Christ , and so may with good reason indeed bee reputed heathen Rome , vnder the persecuting Emperours , but not Popish Rome , wherein Christ is honoured , and Christians are harboured .

Paul .

Worthy Sir , I speake out of no spleene , but aduisedly , pitying the people , that being seduced by this whore , run headlong after her to their own destruction . For , that popish Rome and not heathen Rome is that Babel , I proue by these 2 inuincible reasons . First , from her name , the great Whore , Reu. 17.1 . vers. 5. and the mother of whordomes and abhomiuations of the earth . Now whordome in the Scripture phrase , as all know , is Idolatry , and yet euery idolatrous nation is not said to be a whore , but only that where God hath beene rightly worshipped , but his worship is become corrupt by the bringing in of Idols : for in this respect when Iudah and Israel are said to haue playd the whore , neither Babel nor Sodom , nor any other nation is taxed by this name . Whence is necessarily followeth , that Rome where God hath beene truly worshipped , but since hath beene by Idols corrupted , must be meant by Babel that great whore ; and not heathen Rome , which was originally idolatrous . Again , the other part of the name , the Mother of Whordomes , implyeth a place , from whence the idolatries of other Countreys haue sprung , such as was not Heathen Rome , which receiued her idolatries from other nations , as she subdued them , that they might the more willingly obey the Romane State ; but Popish Rome , the very mother of all the Idolatries in all nations round about . Secondly , I reason from the end of this Babel . Reuel 18 2. Babylon is falne and is become the habitation of Deuils , the bold of all foule spirits , and a Cage of euery vncleane and hatefull bird . And againe , vers. 3. She shall be burnt with fire . Heathen Rome falling , this desolation hath not succeeded , but was more worthily inhabited then euer before , with Christians in stead of Ethnicks , and therefore this Babel is not that Rome , but Rome that now is , whose iudgements shall be according to her blessings , as the iudgements of Ierusalem , not to bee once destroyed , and then repeopled againe , but to be burnt with fire , neuer to be againe reedifyed , but to remaine a perpetuall spectacle of desolation for the glory of Gods iustice against such a sinke of abhominations .

Serg. Paul .

But you haue not yet touched that note , which chiefly is pointed at as the cause of Babels ruine . In her was found the blood of the Prophets , and of the Saints , Reu. 18.24 . &c. What Prophets or Saints haue beene slaine in Rome , since the Christians bare sway ? She hath honoured many Saints with canonizing them , but blood of Saints she hath shed none .

Paul .

By Prophets , as all know , are vnderstood Preachers of the Gospell , and by Saints , godly and faithfull people : for such in the holy Scriptures are called saints , the Pope canonized saints not being knowne then . And of these , what place in the world so full of the blood as Popish Rome , sith she hath beene the bellows to blow vp the coales , that haue burnt thousands of most godly innocent people , and from her hath been deriued the bloody cruelty which hath been exercised by the Potentates of the earth against the numberlesse shepheards and sheepe of Christs flocke , to the destroying of them in most inhumane and barbarous manner . I thanke you therefore for putting me in minde of this note ; for by cruelty and blood-shed is the sinne of the Church of Rome come to the height , neither doth any thing threaten so formidable iudgments against her as the cry of so much innocent blood , shed with such exquisite torments , that if Nebuchadnezzar King of Babel were aliue , he might be asham'd that hee could inuent no more long lingring tormenting death , but cast those that would not worship his Image , into a hot fiery furnace , so hot as that they might bee presently dispacht , when as the King of this Babel hath an hundred wayes more tormenting , to destroy his oppugners , and a far more terrifying course by imprisoning long , vilely dieting , cruelly racking , and at last burning them in a lingring paineprotracting fire .

Serg. Paul .

But it is not for their sanctity , that he dealeth thus with them , but for their Heresies , for which he thinketh them worthy of any torment , that others being by them warned , may take heed of falling into the like .

Paul .

This is his pretence indeed , but if it be heresie , then the pure milke sucked out of the brests of the old and new Testament without any forraigne mixture must be heresie , for such I haue particularly shewed in the beginning of this Colloquy all our doctrine to be . It is therefore for zeale and sanctity meerly that we suffer , and if it were otherwise , yet the Pope must needs for this be Antichrist , and popery Antichristianisme . For who is Antichrist , but he that is against Christ ? and who is against Christ , but he that teacheth and setteth men on to doe against Christs teaching ? If Christ then had bidden Peter to put vp his sword and not to strike therewith for his cause , in way of reuenge , vpon those that were contrary minded , is not he Antichrist that gloryeth in striking with the sword ? If Christ rebuked the rash zeale of those that would haue called for fire from heauen to destroy such as refused to entertaine Christ ; are not they Antichristian that with fire & fagot destroy all ? If Christ bad , let the tares and wheat grow together till the haruest , lest whilest the tares be pulled out , the wheat be plucked vp also ; is not he Antichrist that biddeth pluck vp the tares howsoeuer , destroy the Hereticks in France and in Germany by the sword , and in England with Gunpowder , though many Catholikes perish together with them also ? To say nothing of other things wherein he is plainly against Christ .

Elym .

You shew your spite against his Holinesse now indeed . How can you speake thus without blushing , when as it is plainly set forth , as the note of Antichrist , 1. Iohn 4.1 . that he denyeth Christ to haue come in the flesh : and to confesse Christ come in the flesh , the note of Gods Spirit ; Wherefore the Pope cannot be Antichrist . And if cruelty against Heretikes bee an argument to proue Antichrist , I pray let your rulers take part with him herein ; seeing that in cruelty they are no whit inferiour to Catholike rulers , if they exceed them not . For what holy Priests , and zealous desmits haue beene spared from the sword , what priuate professors of the Catholike Religion from most cruell vsage , imprisoning and spoyling since the beginning of Queene Elizabeths reigne , cill euen of late , when the clemency of a more mercifull King abhorring from all tyranny , hath made their yoak somwhat easier ?

Paul .

You shew eyther your ignorance or wilfulnesse in alleaging that text of Saint Iohn . For who knoweth not , that there are more Antichrists then one ? some are open professed enemies to Christ ; of whom St. Iohn speaketh , that those may easily be knowne by their denying of Christ ; but there is one called the Antichrist , which I haue also set forth , that sitteth in the Temple of God , and commeth with all decei●ablenesse , which things could not agree vnto him , if hee plainly denyed Christ ; and this Antichrist your Pope may well be , notwithstanding his outward profession of Christianity . And for your reply to draw in our Gouernors into the same predicament for their cruelty . I wonder , that you and your fellowes are not ashamed to broach so many notorious lyes , as you haue done touching all manner of cruelties exercised here in England , against your sect , when as since the beginning of that most blessed Queenes reigne ( though there was iust cause , and but your owne measure should haue bin meted to you againe , if all your sect had beene rooted out with fire and sword without partiality ) not one Papist hath beene put to death for his religion . But because by experience it was found dangerous to the State , to suffer Priests and Iesuits to come into the land , their comming being for treason and rebellion , they were proceeded against as traytors that presumed contrary to the Law to enter this Kingdome . And lest there should bee danger in the rest , they haue beene confined and fined , as commmon policy requireth , the more they were kept vnder and restrained , the security of the State being the more ; and contrariwise the more their wealth and liberty was , the greater was the danger of the Kingdome . Wherefore here hath beene no persecution of Religion , but of rebellion , no execution done vpon conscience , but vpon treason , as your own conscience cannot but witnesse with vs .

Elym .

There is no end , I see of wording with you , so many are your shifts and colours at euery turne : but I hope you haue seen your best dayes , & both you & your religion shall now downe as fast , as euer it came vp , and the Catholike religion shall be againe in euery place restored , and then the deed will proue the truth , and that your heresy is not of God , for then it could not bee resisted . Wherefore ( most noble Gouernor ) let not this Heretick seduce you , but prouide for your honor , peace , and safety by ioyning with Catholicke Princes , who alone almost rule all Europe , and would be glad , to see you become a good Catholicke also , and so to prosecute with all entire loue , honor & estimation .

Paul .

Now you shew your selfe in your colours indeed a true child of the Deuill , tempting by worldly honours and respects , as he did Christ . But ( most excellent Sergius ) your wisedome I hope is such , that you will easily reiect these temptations as Christ did the Deuils , with it is written , Psal. 20.8 . They which trust in horses and chariots , or in worldly Princes shall fall downe , but such as trust in God shall stand vp stedfastly . For mine owne part I doubt not , but the eager putting on of popish Potentates of late dayes to ouerthrow the truth at once , is a presage of the ruine of that superstition being euen at the dores . For so the Christian Religion being most indangered in the dayes of Eugenius , when the aduersaries sought to destroy it all at once ; his rage was turned to bee fatall to Gentilisme , being immediatly after so put downe as that it was neuer able to make head againe .

Serg. Paul .

God forbid , that I through any feare or hope should be drawne to that , which I so plainly now see to bee dangerous to the soule . No , no , ( thou bewitching Elymas ) I haue giuen too much care to thy deceiuable reasons to incline to so fauourable an opinion of your Antichristianisme . From henceforth I charge you to come at my Court no more , for I will no more haue communion with you , or such as you are , but onely as I am commanded , I will as much as in me lyeth haue peace with all men . And thou Paul , ( the true messenger of God ) shalt at all times be welcome vnto me . Many such Preachers God blesse mee and my Dominion with all , for they are truely the seruants of God , and all that will be moued the rather for my countenance , let them hearken vnto them , and fly all communion with sophisticall Iesuites and Priests : So shall I account them good and loyall subiects to me in whom my heart shall trust , and they shall escape the greatest and the most bewitching danger of the soule that euer was .