A pleasaunt dialogue, concerning phisicke and phisitions

Interlocutores . ❧ Iasper , Bernardo , Don Nunio , Master Velasques . Iasper .

IT should seeme , that we espyed the one the other , by our comming out , and méeting at one season .

Bernardo .

Now truely you say well . But whether wander you .

Iasper .

If you commaund not other wayes : I was determined to goe visite Don Nunio , and to kéepe him company for one howre , for as yet he is weake of his infirmitie past , and goeth not out of hys doores .

Bernardo .

By my froth , and I came from home with the same intent .

Iasper .

Many times it doth so happen , the will of two men to moue vnto one thing , being a sunder in diuers places , yea & the one to remember the other , at one instant in such wise : that it shoulde séeme the mindes to vnderstand eche other .

Bernardo .

By the spirituall partes , it is no maruell though in some thing wée are like Angels : who vnderstand without speaking , and communicate their conceytes the one with the other .

Iasper .

How so euer it be , sith God mooued vs both at one time to méete , in a good howre be it , and let vs goe together to make our visilation .

Bernardo .

Let vs goe through the next stréete for this is pestered , with the Marchauntes workes .

Iasper .

You say well , but looke what a fayre fronte he hath buylt to his house , certenly of late the building in this Cittie of Ciuil is greatly mended , for within these ten yéeres , their buildings are most bewtifull toward the stréete , with many faire wyndowes of diuers fashions .

Bernardo .

Troth it is , ye and manye auncient houses are reedified , and although euery one can not doe as he would : yet truely the amendment is great . But in one thyng I sée it not , and that is , in their low buildings , for very fewe builde higher then one story , whervpon the houses remaine moyst and of small maiestie . And therefore straungers which come from Barselona , and other Citties where their buildings are of thrée stories high : can not away with ours , nor yet the buyldings of this Cittie content them .

Bernardo .

You say troth , but it were not wisedome to comply with bewty and brauerie , and to commit notorious hurt , bothe to health and life , in this countrey it is not conuenient to build high , and it hath been bothe aduise , & discretion , not to doo so , for naturally the situation of this Citie is hot and moyst , and to resist the heate is a principall remedy , the ayre is fresh , which ordinarily runneth in the Sommer , it is therefore néedefull that the houses be open , & not very high , to be visited with the ayre , and for this cause our auncestors vsed this building , for certainly the high buildings are more hotter than the low , and more vnholsome in Sommer season for want of aire , as we know some that are troubled with this defect , also it is necessarie in this place , the Edifices to be lowe , for remedie of the great moysture , that both stréetes and houses may be visited of the sunne and the ayre , so that if the houses and Edifices héere in this Cittie were high : they shoulde be more cold & moyst in wynter , and more hotter in Sommer . By meane whereof very vnholsome , for the moysture is so great that alwayes wee must procure that the sunne haue entraunce into all places of our houses , if it were possible al day long , the which could not be if the houses and lodgings were high . And also the cold here is not so great to consume the moysture , as it is in Castillia & other partes , and where great cold is : yet the heate of the sunne is necessarie , although in Sommer it be great , to consume the ouer much moysture . And therefore I beléeue that our forefathers vsed to this ende , to make the stréetes brode , as nowe the most are , yea and in our daies , shades and penthouses were commaunded to be taken away for that purpose , where by a notorious commoditie and health hath followed :

Bernardo .

Truely your reason is certaine and naturall , & although some times I haue mused thereon , yet I was neuer so well satisfied as now I am : and I thinke hytherto , the same respect hath bene , and if it had not , it is iust that it be héereafter . But it séemeth vnto me , that high Chambers are not good lodging , nor yet néedful for this place in the winter , which is not colde , and the heate of Summer excéeding hote . As for experience , noble men which haue high houses , doo seldome dwel in them , for those causes alleadged : but rather kéepe them to lay corne in , and for lodging of their seruauntes , rather then for other purpose , although in Castillia such high buyldings are most holsome : so that our houses béeing lowe : the cause was not for want of knowledge : but rather came of a good foresight . Let vs now sée howe Don Nunio will buylde his house , which hath a good beginning , & héere I sée much stuffe prepared for the woorke .

Iasper .

Let vs vnderstand what he dooth before we alight from our Moyles : for sick persons may not be visited at all seasons .

Bernardo .

No but yet it seemeth by yonder Moile that Maister Velasques is with him : therefore let vs alight , and I will leade the waye .

Iasper .

God giue your Woorship health . Entrance of the gentlemen .

Don Numo .

I kisse your Maistershippes hand , and am very glad that ye are comen at such time , to fynde Maister Docter Velasques héere , for if ye two will speake Latin he will vnderstand ye , or els if ye will argue any matter ( as ye were wont to doo ) yee haue a good and present Iudge .

Bernardo .

No sir , for now we come very conformable like good neighbours , and we haue not wherevpon to Dispute , if you throwe not in a bone as you were wont to doo .

Maister .

Senor Don Nunio , Dooth not euill therein . For alwayes good fruite proprocéedes out of a good discorde .

Bernardo .

At the least sir you haue small néede thereof : for it is euident that you teach vs all . But notwithstanding our talke , sir , how doo you féele your selfe .

Don Nunio .

Truely as yet I am very weake , for my disease principally hath béene of a long continuance , and also I was letten bloud thrée times , therefore I cannot so soone recouer strength , and I haue also an excéeding drines , remayning in my mouthe so that I cannot abstaine from drinking , and thinking my selfe neuer satisfied , and surely I beleeue that the Phisitions hath not vnderstood the secretes of my disease , to cure it accordingly

Bernardo .

Sir beléeue me I know a man that would not be offended with the drines you speake of , for on a time the same man hauing an exceeding burning feauer and drynes . The Phisission would haue giuen him certaine thinges to myttigate the heate and drought : vnto whom he aunswered very grauely . A pretie example . Maister Doctor , I pray you doo what you can to ease my extréeme heate . But as for my thyrstinesse , I would be contented to remayne with all .

Don Nunio .

Yea , but I am not so great a fréend of drinke : for when I am in health , I flée from the thinges that should cause thyrstinesse . But truly the extréeme drinesse which I haue now , came of a Purgation that was giuen me .

Iasper .

Yea , and therefore I defie Phisitions , for I promise you , if you had not purged your self : you had bene sooner whole , and not now so weake ,

Maister .

Why syr , the Phisitions know no better way to cure .

Iasper .

Mary syr , and that way , I would they knew not , for it is not conuenient to be vsed .

Don Nunio .

If ye had séene what a disputation héere was , about what should be giuen to purge me with all , and about the letting of me blood , ye would haue sayde somwhat .

Iasper .

Syr , I néeded not to sée the thing , for I haue other causes more sufficient , to approoue that which I meane to speake of : Long agone I knewe howe the Phisitions very seldome agrée in their opinions , yea , and I was about to say , that fewer tymes they happen to doo the patient good .

Bernardo .

Then must I say also , that you haue for a custome , seldome tymes to speake well , either of Aduocates or Phisitions . But say what you lyst , you shall , will or nill , trust the one with your life , and the A pretie conclusion . other with your goodes .

Iasper .

Then accursed be I , if I doo so , at the least , to put my lyfe in the Phisitions handes , for in all my life tyme hytherto , I was neuer let blood , nor yet haue had any Phisitions counsell , as long as I haue gone abroade in the world . And I finde my selfe better in health , and more sounder then you , who alwayes hath to doo with such kinde of men .

Bernardo .

Yea and therfore you brag , but I promise you , if any disease should take you vehemently : you would then crye out for the Phisitions .

Iasper .

It might so be , that the infirmitie might be such to depriue men of my witte , and so to demaund helpe of Phisitions , but as long as my memorie serueth , feare not that I commit any such madnesse : for sithens God be praysed I haue lyued 45. yéeres without them , yea , and haue bene holpen of some infirmities , with holsom dyet & good regiment : I meane not now to prooue new inuentions .

Dun Nunio .

Now truly Signor Maister , this fire beginneth to kindle , for these Gentlemen are armed for the purpose .

Bernardo .

I am not disposed to contend . But yet I will alwayes defend the trueth .

Iasper .

And the same shall neuer want vnto me , therefore if you haue any thing to say , begin when you lyst , for I am ready to aunswere .

Bernardo .

Truly Signor Iasper , it séemeth a merry toy , to call medicine a new inuencion , being as you know the most auncient Art in the world , approoued and admitted by God himselfe , & by men . Haue you not read in Ecclesiastes , that God created medicine of the earth , & that the Wise man should not slée from it , for the medicine dooth exalt & honour the Phisition , & for medicine he shall be praysed in presence of kings & mighty men . Also our Aucthors and humane woorks , maketh no lesse accoumpt of medicine , although they differ in whom was the inuenter thereof , yet all agréeth to reuerence & honour all such . Some say & holde opinion , that Mercurie was the first , others say Apis , other affirme Aposto , & some Aesculapius : Homero was also honored for a God , & fountaine of good writers , in many places , he I say commends medicine : yea , & did not let to shew ; & name medicinall hearbes , & how medicin hath ben estéemed of Emperors and kings , you know better then I. You haue also read what reward Alexander the great gaue vnto Aristouolus Phisition : and king Ptolome to Erasistrato . Yea , & the incredible stipend & fees which they had in that tyme of Emperors in Rome , wherof Plinie and others make mencion : In conclusion , looke what a treasure health is , which passeth all worldly ioyes , the felicitie of the soule excepted : yea , and contrary wise , howe bitter is infirmitie . So that these thinges considered , you may sée what honour is due to medicine , that conserueth vs in the one , & kéepeth vs from the other .

Maister .

Although it hath not bene much which Signor Bernardo hath spoken , yet his study hath not bene small , as appeareth by his explication .

Iasper .

You haue played the good Retorician , and sithens you haue taken the payne , I will doo the lyke . But I would first you should vnderstand , that I condempne not the good Medicine : for I tolde you that I had cured my selfe with only good dyet , and regunent , yea , and also with some hearbes , and other thinges whereof I haue experience . But I condempne the euyll Phisitions , who long agone made bothe Arte and Merchandize , inuenting and séeking straunge and violent medicaments , fylling & darkning , with their opinions and Cawtelles , the faculties which most cleere and simply ought to be , and of himselfe is and was in his beginning , when men cured one another for charity , and not for interest , and then they cured with hearbes and vertuous symples experimented , and not with venomous compositions that nowe are vsed , which you knowe not what they be , nor from whence they come , nor to what vse they serue , nor yet howe many they be , because they are so many that they are out of number .

The Medicine which is commended in Ecclesiastes , is the same that was vsed in those good dayes . But the Medicine inuented by those which you say were holden for Goddes , because they discouered the vertue & propertie of hearbes , stones fruites , and other thinges applyed them , to the Passions , sores , and infirmities , without making them Artes , rules , and preceptes , as afterward mallice & couetousnesse of men brought to passe , so that before that time , we found nothing written of medicine . Hipocrates by aucthority of Marcus Varro , according vnto Plinie affirmeth : was the first that wrote the precepts of medicine . The space of , 600. yéeres , the Romaines defended them selues from Phisitions , and would in no wise suffer them in Rome : since which tyme they neuer lyued so sound . True it is , that in the tyme when Enullius , and Marcus Libio were Consuls , which was after the foundation of Rome . 535 yéeres : I know not by whome perswaded , they admitted a Greeke Phisition Pelotones , called Archagatus , vnto whome they gaue a house & publique stipend , and as a new thing at the beginning , he pleased some men . But after they had experience of his letting blood , and his Cauteries , with strange inuencions of curing : bothe he and others that were newlye come , were banished , by the aucthoritie and counsell of the great Cato Censorinus , who lyued , 85. yéeres , because you may consider what want he had of Archagatus , or of any other . After Cato his death , the tyme running with couetousnesse , ambicion , and other vices , then entred Phisitions into Rome .

So that it plainly appeareth , before that time the Romaines had , dyet , medicines , and a way to cure with all , according to experience , without vsing any tyranny , for each neyghbour shewed vnto other , the thinges that he had prooued : in those dayes I say , looue and charitie cured , and not couetousnesse and poyson .

The Romaines only vsed not this good order , but also the Babilonians , who were learned . Estrabo , and Herodotus , wryte that , they had not knowen Phisitions , and therefore they vsed ( when any happened to be sicke ) to bring him foorth into the open stréete , because his neighbours and fréendes ( who had any experience in such diseases ) should giue their councell and aduise .

The selfe same order was vsed among the Egiptians and Portyngalles , after those golden dayes , Signor Bernardo , Phisitions crepte into the houses of Emperors & Kings , among whom , some were famous , as Hipocrates , who was the fountaine and father of them all , and after him came Aristogenes into seruice with king Antigonus of Macedonia , and Asclepiades his familliar , who was froend of great Pompetus . Antonius Muga was entertained of the Emperour Octauianus . Also bothe the Appollodors , of whome Plinie wryteth : Cornelio Celso the Romaine : the famous Erasistratus who by his singuler knowledge , vnderstoode howe the disease of Antiochus was vndecent looue , with his Mother in Lawe . Also Galenus , who now is honoured , and called Prince of Phisitions , with many other which now I will not name . But this I knowe , notwithstanding , that after Phisitions began to multiply , mans lyfe began to shorten . And in those dayes the auncient Romaines , lyued in more health then all these Princes , who entertayned the Phisitions with wages , and other excessiue rewardes : And if you will not beléeue me , let Alexander the great , who you brought for an example , say his opinion , for he lyued not full fortie yéeres . Let also the olde gray bearded men of the Mountaynes and Uillages , which neuer knewe Phisitions , speake their minde . And let the young men of the Cittie , declare also their opinions .

But doo you know what was the cause to admit Phisitions in Rome , the great disorder whereof I spake , because men would not temper , and cure them selues according to the rule of theyr Auncestors , they woulde néedes giue the charge of theyr health to them that knew it not . Wherevpon , as Plinie affyrmeth , great hurt followed to the health of man : for why , they left the care of them selues , and gaue credite to Phisitions for theyr health : and the Phisitions for theyr part , cared no more but for the interest & profit , exalting theyr Arte , and making ther of Merchandize , yea , and to giue a more comely visage to theyr newe Science , that none might know the secretes therof : they began to flee from common and true renredies , and to vse compoundes , mixtures , fruites , rootes , hearbes , neuer before seene nor heard of , to deceaue and bewitch the people , with the names and hydden properties , and for the common remedies , they sought straunge , casting cleane asyde the true way , and sticked fast to their new deuises . Héere also began the distylling of Waters , bothe of cleane and filthy thinges . Héere began Syrrups , bothe swéete and sower , some cléere , some darcke , made of such conceytes , that the Diuell himselfe would scarcely imagine what thing it were .

An other deuise also , is to cause vs to eate golde , stones , yea , and yron , lyke vnto Oystrages against all nature . Héere also began your Mytradate , and compound Treacle , made of aboue 54. things and some of them rancke poyson : if euerie of them were good of himselfe , the incomportable company of the one with the other , maketh an horrible poyson .

The which Plinie almost 1800. yéeres past , sayth , was made by ostentation and apparaunce of his Arte , for it is impossible Nature to be séene , nor experience knowen , nor the temper and concordaunces of so many thinges dyscordant , no it can not be . So that of these thinges and other lyke , they haue made experience in mans body , with such audacitie , and at all aduentures . So that in lew of giuing health : they happen many-tymes to kyll the patient , yea , and in recompence thereof , to haue his money for their labour : and that which wurst is , there is no punishment for them . Tell me I pray you , what Phisition haue you séene chastened , eyther for the death , or laming of any man ?

Finally , Signor Bernardo , the mallice of man hath spoyled the best thing in the worlde , which is in making the thing naturall , an obscure Artificer : charitie an interest , mercie , couetousnesse , darckening reason so much , as though none could cure but Phisitions .

Iesting at common experience , and extolling with perswasion theyr Arte , or Mysterie , yea , euen to the names of thinges , giuing them newe barbarous and straunge tearmes , saying , both the Greeke and Latin names are well knowen .

Also in theyr writing they haue inuented Carraters and Sygnes , not to be vnderstoode , but of whome they deale withall for theyr Drugges : so that they procured by all meanes to darcken the thing which ought to be common , and knowen of all men .

Then what shall I say of the diuersity of theyr doctrine and opinions . The Alarbes differ from the Greekes , so that among them selues , they are not conformable , neyther the one nor the other . The order and manner of curing theyr Auicena , differeth from Galenus , & those of antiquitie , euen so much that it séemeth an other thing : nor yet those of our tyme cure lyke Auicena , nor lyke the other , for now all consistéth in inuencions and opinions . Yea , if you call two or thrée together , you shall finde each to be singuler in his iudgement . But when they agrée , iwis it is to the great peryll of the Patient : if you heare each of them by himselfe it is a myracle to finde them conformable , yea , & theyr receytes shall be diuers and contrarie each to other : It shall not néede that I make any further recytall therof , for dayly you see it before your eyes , thereforē I will not weárie my selfe in the rehearsall .

Maister Velasques .

It should séeme that these Gentlemen ●ame purposely to debate this matter , & héerein to shewe theyr learning & knowledge , because I sée them so earnest : therfore we may doo well to cut of , and abreuiate theyr communication .

Don Nunio .

No Syr , that were not iust , that Phisitions should thus remaine , without defence . Yea , and for my part , I doo greatly reioyce to heare this talke . Therfore let the conclusion be , that sithens each of them hath had his turne , although Signor Iasper ; hath bene somewhat long in his discourse , let each of them haue another course , and no more , which shall be as one that wryteth his minde , and an other that replyeth in our iudgement court . And then I am to desire you Signor Maister , to giue sentence , who hath the right .

Iasper .

I for my part am content , reseruing the benefite of appellation , if the sentence be not giuen in my fauour .

Bernardo .

And I for my part am also agréeed hauing so great a confidence in my Iustice , and also in the iudgement of Signor Maister , by meane whereof I binde myselfe to his iudgement and sentence .

Maister Velasques .

A harde matter is commended vnto me . But notwithstanding , I will saye what God shall giue me to vnderstand , to make an ende of your contencion , seauing lybertie to each of you to doo what ye please .

Don Nunio .

Me thinketh Signor Bernardo , is ready for the purpose : begin on Gods name .

¶ Heere followeth the aunswer of Signor Bernardo . Bernardo .

AT the begynning of our talke , I thought Signor Iasper that you iested . But when I heard you touch in Doctrine and Histories : then I knewe that your argument was in earnest . And therefore will I aunswere accordingly : that which I vnderstand of the thinges which you haue spoken , is in conclusion , that you thinke there should be no Phisions in the worlde : at the least , such as were knowen to be , and lyue of that vocation .

But rather you would haue vs all to be Phisitions , and to cure one an other : also you would not haue medicine by Arte confounded , in Science nor Philosophy : But onelye to followe experience and conference , and the voyce of the people , as though we should lyue in the Mountaynes where no pollicie nor discretion should be vsed .

These two principall points I meane to ouerthrowe , as a begynning to the processe , and then to aunswer some of the other mallices which you haue spoken . In the fyrst poynt touching Phisitions , it is a cleare case that you haue no reason , for the name of a Phisition is holie and amyable , and ought not to be odious vnto you : séeing Christe our redéemer dyd not despise both to be called and holden for a Phisition , when he was speaking of himselfe : sayth he then , for the whole folke néedeth not the Phisition . And againe , when he cured the eyes with clay and spyttle : and when he appoynted for medicine of the Samaritan● Oyle & Wine , yea , he letted not to cure and heale infinite infirmities : and the lyke commaunded his Disciples , for S. Paule Doctor of the people , tooke bothe person and office of a Phisition , when he wrote to Timothens , willing him to drink Wine to comfort his stomacke . Saint Luke the Euangelist dyd name himselfe a Phisition , and letted not to giue this Office vnto the Apostles . The Angell Raphaell woulde also vse this Office , when he gaue a receyt vnto Tobias , wherwith he should cure and recouer the sight of his eyes . So that in this poynt you haue no waye to contend , because the name of a Phisition is profitable in the world . And if there haue bene some Phisitions bothe false and couetous , and also haue vsed of such things wherof you haue enlarged , and I thereof ignoraunt , you ought not iudge nor beleeue them . But notwithstanding , the wise and good ought not to be cast of , it is a méete thing that there should be perticuler and appointed persons of so high an Office and misterie , and not rather , as you would to haue all men Phisitions , and so to walke in confusion and inconstancie , with ignoraunce of the people . Truly this way is not only vnprofitable , but also a thing impossible .

The example also of the Romaines , wherewith you helpe your selfe , who were . 600. yéeres without Phisitions : I say with you , that it is true . But yet through simplicitie and want of knowledge , as they were at that time ignorant of learning , and other Arts , so were they wanting of Medicine . But after they vnderstoode what Doctrine & Science was : and had receyued the same of the Greekes , they then embraced also medicine , as one of the most necessarie things . And lykewise the Maisters , who had sight therein : and euen so dyd the other Nations of whome you spake of . And where in the second poynt , you will not that we follow or obserue precepts , nor yet to haue Arte nor foundation of Science , nor you will vs not to followe reason & cause , but only experience which you allowe : and therfore you iudge euill of the forme and order which is obserued in medicines and their compound , wherof I doo not lyttle meruayle .

Fyrst , you know how naked experience is in Science holden for doubtfull , and consideration & iudgement dooth change in yéeres , with complexion , with tyme , place , and many other thinges . And therfore it is necessarie for him that wyll cure , to knowe these differences , the secrete cause and discouerie of the infirmitie : for it is a thing vnpossible the knowledge of curing vnto him that knoweth not whereof , and where the disease dyd spring . It is therefore néedefull that hée vnderstand the composture and complexcions of humayne bodies , their humors , & which of them beareth rule , and what disease thereof may growe . For , without doubt , the cure must otherwyse be handled , if you preuent the infirmyties of all fowre humors , as many Wise men affyrme . And contrarywise , if the cause be in onely moysture , as Eropilus holdes opinion : according to the writing of Cornelius Celsor and others , or in the spirits , as Hipocrates thought .

Yea , and also otherwise , if it be as Erasistratus iudged , that the blood turning backwardes , to the arteries or veynes of the spirits cause inflamation , and the inflamation causeth the moouing which we sée in the Feuer . So that he shall knowe how to cure , which reacheth to the originall & true cause . And therfore you may consider , whether Arte and study of Philosophy , be requisite or no : so that of necessity , the causes of infirmities ought to be knowen . And also to vnderstand the quality and property of mettals , stones , trées , fruites , hearbs , rootes , and also of beasts , and all other thinges which may serue to the vse of medicine , to auoyd error in their application . I doo not deny , but rather affirme that experience is profitable . But I presume and am bolde to iustifie , that there can be no experience without some reason or cause : nor yet I thinke that our Auncestors dyd vse their simples at all aduentures , without consideration . But rather I iudge that by speculations and foresight in things conuenient , they made their experience , the which fyrst they coniectured to be good . Therefore honour in this case ought not to be giuen to experience , but rather to wisdome and counsell , which was the chéefest part . Nowbeit , dayly are discouered diuers kindes of infirmities , vnto whome experience and vse can not serue , because there can be no experience of a thing not knowen . So that of necessitie it is néedefull to know by Arte and doctrine the obscure causes of the vice and corruption , which the humors and members may suffer in a man , besides these that are playne and open , as colde , heate , hunger , replexion , and other lyke .

He also that will be a Phisition , should vnderstand what thing is actions , or naturall operations , and what are those by the which we giue and take the spirit of breath , we eate and drinke , the place of disgestion : and how the substance of our foode is deuided to giue strength to our bodies in all places . Also it is néedefull to be vnderstoode , why our Pulses haue continuall moouing , and what is the reason and cause of sléepe & watching : without knowledge whereof , it séemeth that he should not know how to preserue and cure infirmities . Besides this , men suffer great paynes and passions in the inward partes and members of the body , which is a thing néedefull to be known , & to haue séen Anothomyes of some dead bodyes , to haue marked & considered the cullor , the figure , the bignesse , the order , and the hardnesse & softnesse of them all . Also the variety and deuision of the same members , among themselues , which doo ioyne together , or how they giue place & receyue : As we reade that Erophilus and Erafistratus dyd , requiring for the same purpose , men that were condempned to death , to prooue experience . For it is a playne case , that when any gréefe or interior hurt happeneth , and not knowen , how or where it is , nor yet to apply outward medicine , for the vncertayntie of the inward gréefe , nor the nature & reason thereof . And finally , for auoyding of 〈◊〉 , I say that there are many necessary things appertayning to a good Phisition , yea , and to declare them only ▪ it is requisit that such a one be a learned Philosopher . How much more to know how to put them in vre , insomuch , that Hipocrates sayth , that a good Phisition ought to knowe the disease past , & to vnderstand the cure present : and also to pro●osticate the thing to come . So that Signor lasper , if you haue harkened well vnto me , you will not let to confesse that it is a thing necessary for Phisitions , to haue bothe rules and precepts , and that they be grounded on Sciences & Artes . And as this is a thing , that can not be common : it is therfore necessarie to haue perticuler men Phisitions , who ought to be honoured and estéemed as alwayes they haue bene . And it is not sufficient that you alleadge , that vices and disorders brought Phisitions to Rome , for although it had so bene , it séemed a speciall gyft of God , who hauing sent them diseases , dyd also send them remedy : And againe , contend and say what you lyst , the Phisitions dooth not counsell any to distemper them selues : but when any happeneth to be dystempered , then the straunge is their owne proper and true names from their origen , which is not vulgarly vnderstoode . And where you speake of their Letters & receypt , it may be accoumpted a iest , & a thing not woorthy of aunswer : because you know that such breuiations are vsed to auoyde perplexitie , for euery Science hath his tearmes , and breuiations in wryting .

And againe , where you touched theyr varietie in iudgement , the discharge is euident , considering the wittes & iudgements of men are diuers , so that with a good & whole intencion , they may be contrary in theyr sentence , and with small perill in medicine : considering that one disease may be cured by diuers wayes . And by this meanes Phisitions may varry , and by sundry wayes come to one ende , which is the cure & health of the Patient . Now in this order , your euyll suspition & opinion is dasht and broken in péeces , by the sufficient reasons which I haue declared . And I thinke without any more contencion , you ought to cease & leaue of your ar guing , and because I hope you will so do : I will not now procéede any further , although I haue matter ynough .

Dun Nunio .

By my fayth Signor Maister , although I vnderstand little , yet me thinketh that Signor Bernardo hath shewed himselfe a valliant Orator , so that I am nowe on the Phisitions syde , I know not what Signor Iasper iudgeth .

Maister Velasques .

What he thinketh he wyll say : for as yet I ought not to speake , because ye haue made me Iudge , his turne abydeth for him , he hath also wytte and yéeres to aunswer for himselfe .

¶ The second part of the Dialogue of Phisitions , wherin the matter is concluded and ended . Iasper .

I Am cleane contrary to the opinion of Signor Bernardo , and wyll not consent to any of his allegations : nay rather , I sweare by my conscience , that his own reason hath confirmed me more in my Phisition remedieth the same .

And where you murmure , of the inuencion of Syrruppes and distylled waters , and of the compoundes of medicines , you are the more to be blamed . For rather the wytte and aduice of the inuentor is to be praysed , and to receyue the same as a good gyft , & mercy of God , who dayly giueth vs new remedyes and medicines .

And if in olde time they wanted knowledge to make Syrrups , and distyll holsome waters , both swéete & pleasaunt , as now are vsed : I say therein , the aduantage is ours , and are therfore more bound to be thankfull to Phisitions , for so profitable and swéete a thing : and because it is a new inuencion , it is not therfore to be despised . For likewise in olde tyme they knew not was Amber Muske , nor Siuitte , which are most swéete and excellent Odors : And also the Mytridate and compound Treacle , which you reprehend . The reason is , because you vnderstand not , neyther the composition , nor the vertue of the things wherof it is made , nor yet the effectes therof .

And where you say that Phisitions ought to be punished as mankyllers , you are therefore worthy of great reprehension , to presume that they of mallice would kyll any , ne yet through ignorance they cannot do it . But for their straight examination I doo not mistike : but rather holde it for a thing conuenient , notwithstanding , the Phisition vsing well his office in the obseruing of Rule & Arte , and the Patient should happen to die : he ought not to be punished for his death . And of the same opinion was Plato , appearing in the ninth Dialogue of his Lawes .

And also where Phisitions procure to be payde for theyr paynes , they ought not therfore to be reprehended , sithens that by the Law of God and man , the laborer ought to haue his hyre . God also commaundeth , that the Oxe that freadeth out the Corne , be not mustod . Moreouer , I may say , that of too much sharpnes of wytte , nay rather of mallice , wher you presume that of industry they darcken their Arte , with straunge names of things : for why , if you vnderstoode them : you would say that those names which seemed vnto you straunge opinion . And before I had heard him speake : I was not so great an enemy of Phisitions , as now I am . But whether I haue reason or no , by mine aunswere ye shall heare .

Fyrst , I say you haue well vnderstoode my desire , wherein I would haue no office of Phisitions , in a common weale , at the least , such as should cure for money . But that we should one counsell & cure an other . And also we shall know & vse such remedies , which are already knowen & prooued by auncient men of experience , and to stick vnto the same . If this thing might so be , although there were some inconueniences : yet truly , they should be much lesse than those which procéede from the good and euyll Phisitions . By meanes of theyr purges & repurges , bléedings and rebleedings : yea , and you should haue as small a diffyculty therin , if determynatly we should begyn to dyspute , as to speake one language , and to haue one custome which are auncient in our Countrey , yea , and the great vse of olde tyme , should be as easy to cure the diseased , as in these our dayes .

So that héere is proofe and argument to sée , that for the one part of medicine , which according to theyr owne opinion is the principall , which they call ●suall : that is to say , to know of what the Patient ought to féede , howe , & what it should be , more or lesse , the experience , vse and counsell which they haue among them selues , and now so common to men : wherby without either counsell or receypt of the Phisition , men know what to eate , how & in what quantitie . And such rule wisemen dare vse and obserue . I speak not of such , who will voluntarily be disordred . Why alas , if in this , which is the chéefest poynt , we can lyue without tutors ? why should we not then bring to passe , the vse of curing should be as well knowen among vs ? for why , the difficulty or peryl should be no greater , as I will shew , after that I haue made aunswer to your argument .

And therfore will I chaunge the forme of aunswering , because we are contrary in opinion . You meane to defend the Phisitions ; of tyme present , saying : that Christe our redéemer , dyd compare himselfe to Phisitions , and that truly is as much , as to defend the cruelty of the Lyons , because they are also called Lyons . Besydes this , your argument is verie weake , because your comparison of Christ to a Phisition dooth not so well fit your purpose . So that I say , you may make them more perticuler : yet you shall sée the Christe dooth rather approoue my opinion then yours , for he dyd not appoynt among his Disciples , one nor two to heale and cure : but generally , commaunded them all vnto whome he gaue especiall grace , to cure and make whole , as you your selfe affyrme : so that this allegation maketh for me . And where you speake of the Angell Raphaell , and S. Paule : truly those holy Persons , sent not the sicke folke to the Phisitions of the Cittie to be cured : but rather they themselues tooke the cure in hand , béeing none of that vocation : and how I pray you ? iwis not with Purgations , nor blood letting , nor with your Diacatulicions , nor Skamonea : but the one with a lyttle Wine , whereof he had experience , & the other with the vertue of a Fishe , which God gaue him for that purpose . And therefore , Maister mine , sithens that this Office is common to Angelles and to men : it is not iust that two or thrée should ingrate the same , lyke tyrants in the Towne : because forsoothe they are learned men as you say , as I would to God they were : But if they be , in good time be it , for I say not that learning hurteth any . But I say that for the vse of curing , it is not néedefull , for I holde not such thinges necessary , but only for the knowledge of cléere and euident thinges . For why , it is not greatly materiall to knowe the first and secrete origen of a disease , but rather to knowe what dooth helpe : But the inquisition and intelligence of secrete and hydden causes , and the knowledge of their naturall operations , and the rest which you say is necessary to be knowen , I holde for a vaine thing , and also impossible .

For besides , that the secrets of nature are incomprehensible , it is playne that this is so , for why , those that presume to know this matter , are Phisitions and Philosophers , who are diuers and contrary in theyr opinions , and can giue no certayne rule nor resolution .

For how would you that the Phisition should know the radicall cause , and first origen of all infirmyties , theyr opinions béeing so variable , as you your selfe haue declared .

And why should I more beléeue Hipocrates ( who affyrmeth the substaunce of the matter to be in the spirites : ) then Erasistratus , who attrybuteth it to the turning backward of the blood to the arteries ? And why should I credite more these , then others , who assygned other prynciples ? And howe will you knowe how disguestion is made in the stomack . Truly , I for my part , dare no more credite the one , then the other . Séeing there are so many opinions , vpon the case , for some say that the foode boyleth with heate , others say that it rotteth by way of attrycion & grynding , others denieth them bothe , & each giueth such reasons , as séeme true : so that following the opinion of any of them , the cure shal be perticuler & cleane contrary the one to the other . So that séeing the causes & origen so diffycult , the certeynty séemeth vnpossible , & I sée no cause for a man to weary himself therin . But only to content and serue our selues with the remedy that experience hath taught vs . And considering that it importeth not to know what caused the infirmity , but only the way to cure the same : Nor yet I will not trouble my selfe to know how disgestion is made , but chéefly to know what meate is soonest disgested , & what is good to helpe the same . Without vering my selfe to knowe the cause why : nor yet I passe not to knowe what is the cause of shortnes of breath , but rather the way to remedy it without payne : I will neyther know , who mooueth , nor how the artyres mooue : but only vnderstand what signifieth the disordered moouing . And also it maketh not for your purpose , that you alleadge for new diseases that may happen , for when any such thing doo happen , he that cureth , ought not to imagine what the origen was , séeing that of common things he is ignorant , as before I haue declared . For it is sufficient to consider how the lyke infirmity hath bene cured , & without medicine , and so by experience , we may hyt on the certeynty . As for example , the disease of the Poxe , how ignorant were Phisitions in the cure , as long as they went by Science & Arte ? But after experience had taught vs the vse of the wood , called Lignum Vite , or Lignum Sanctum : How notoriouslie were the diseases cured ? without the knowledge of the origen of the disease , nor yet the cause why the sayd medicine dooth helpe ?

It séemeth also vnto you a necessarye thing , the Anathomy of dead bodyes : and in my iudgement , it is a thing of small effect , yea , & I rather holde it for a kinde of crueltie . For true it is , in such an Anathomy , there remayneth neyther the proper cullor , softnes or hardnes , or any other liuely thing , which you say was in the members of the dead and wounded bodyes , which are abyding in the lyue & sound bodyes : for if there be in a whole and liuely man , colde , feare , wearines , or any other meane affect , or alteration , which make exterior , & notorious chaunges in the cullor and posture of the face : it is much more lyke the interior members , which are more delycate to change and alter with a straunge ayre .

And truly I holde it for a méere madnes to beléeue that the Armony and consert which is in the liue body of a man , is to be found in one that lyeth a dying , or is already dead . Now if the Anathomy were of any effect , or coulde giue any lyght for the health of man , there dayly chaunceth men to be slayne in the warres , and by other mischaunces : where without crueltie , but rather to cure theyr woundes , they might make experience without the spoyling and breaking vp of mannes fleshe , by him that hath professed rather to heale it .

And where you say that such men experimented , are Fallares , because they chaunge with age and tyme : I say that experience found out those chaunges and not Arte , so that to experience all is due , and by the same , all is obtayned . Moreouer , the aunsweres which you make to my reasons are so weake , that they néede no reply at all . And where you say that Phisitions are not the cause of vices and diseases , because they counsell none to distemper them selues , but rather cure theyr hurte , receyued by distemperance . But I say , because some men haue such confidence in them , they encorrage them selues to be gluttons , and dysordered persons , yea , and some tymes they giue them such counsell .

But sithens that Signor Maister , is héere present , marke what Saint Ambrose sayth , vpon the. Cviij . Psalme , which is . The preceptes of Medicine are contrarie to the diuine counselles , because they forbyd fasting , and permit no Uigilles , yea , they will compell men in such sort , that he who giueth himselfe there vnto , shall vtterly deny himselfe .

And where againe , you would defend Phisitions from punishment , by the Lawes of Plato I aunswere : that it is first néedefull that you bring the approbation of those Lawes from the Emperour , for without that , your Lawes are of small effect : but although they were , Plato dooth not salue , but onely hée that cureth well , by whome if any mischance happen , he is faultlesse . But I spake vnto you onely of such as knowe not what they doo , which is the cause that they erre in that which they take in hand , and where there is on the earth no punishment for such : I beseeche God to chasten them , for it is a hard case that only Phisitions are neuer ignorant of any thing . But if you goe to an Aduocate or Counsellor in the Law , with any hard question , he will aunswer , that be will study the cause . If you goe to a Diuine , he will oftentimes make theyr aunswere , and so will men of other faculties . But the Phisition wyll incontinent make aunswer to a thousand diseased solke , if they demaund any thing . Yea , they iudge it a lesser faulte to erre , then to confesse that they know not . Likewise their errors and euill successe , they will not let to lay on some body , eyther the disorder of the Patient , or the mallice of the humor , and whether I say true or no , I put you for witnesse .

And where you say , that I vnderstand not the properties & vertues of medicines , compounds : I aunswer that you say true , and I affirme the same , & say , that neyther the Phisitions , nor yet their Auicena , vnderstood them : nor yet is it possible to vnderstand the Armony and temper of . 300. thinges together , and therefore they are abhominable . And for my part I will yéelde no thankes for the inuencion of them , as you commaund .

Neyther yet holde I for profitable , the Muske , Siuit , and Amber , although they are of delectable swéetnes in Odor , for we might wel be without them : for they profit not so much the health of the body , but in as many tymes they are hurtfull to the soule : And sithens you are so wholy iudging , that those names & darke receypts are not made by industry & mallice , I pray you be a meane héereafter , to kéepe me from occasion of sinne : to induce them to Phisitions , to make theyr receyptes with a fayre plaine letter in our language , & then I will iudge as you doo . So that now Signor Bernardo , séeing that your argumentes and aunsweres vnto mine , are of no efficacie or strength , you ought to put them cleane from your opinion , and that you disturbe not medicine to be commonly knowen , and let vs not permytte to be subiect to two or thrée : Wherof Plinie complayneth because we will not knowe what is good for vs , and so we goe vpon other mens féete , we eat with other mens appetite , whervpon our lyfe and health is an arbitrement . Be not so curious in this matter , as to spend in learning , to study in the Uniuersitie all your lyfe tyme , by meane of which paynes , you may gette more disease , then by your study you might learn to cure . So to conclude , it is sufficient what I haue sayde , to approoue , that Experience , dyet , & good regiment , sufficeth principally for our health . Therefore , let vs not séeke rationall experience : but embrace the experimentall . And thinke not that medicine was found before reason , for the good Husbandman and the Marriner , by vse and practise , came to be Maisters , and not by study and learning to knowe the quallities of the heauens , nor the course of Planets and Starres , nor yet the bookes of heauen , and world of Aristotle : for why , we dayly fall among naturall infirmyties , with our chyldren , seruaunts , & neyghbours , therfore we ought not to be carelesse , for the vse and disease doo make vs Artistes , we haue nowe no neede of foundations : for the auncient and common opinion , which experience we holde for Maisters , without buying the same for money : howe much more men ought not to be inferior to the Fowles of the ayre , and Beasts of the Wyldernesse , among whome there are many that haue knowledge in medicine , necessarie for theyr vse : As the Harte knoweth howe to drawe out the arrowe wherwith he is wounded , with an hearbe called Ditamo . The Swallow giueth sight to her young ones , with the hearbe Chilidonia : the wylde Boore cureth with Organy . And many others likewise , of whom Plinie , and other wryters make relation .

Then it should not séeme much for man to doo the like : and thinke not , that it should be a thing vnméete to liue in such vniformity , although you think we should erre for want of Phisitions : Howbeit , the greatest error is , in hauing too many of them , and theyr medicines . Nature hath a care to heale the sicke , with verie lyttle helpe : for the Phisitions them selues , say , that Nature is he that woorketh and cureth , and that they be but mynisters .

In this sort lyued the Romaines , the time that I haue declared , and all the world accordinglye , before Phisitions were knowen , and the lyke at this day among the people which dwel in the Mountaines and barren Countries , who lyue longer and more in health , then the Cittizens , where medicine & Phisitions aboundeth .

Those men I say , would neuer suffer Phisitions to come among them : but only cure them selues with good regyment , hearbes & experience , among whome I could name some notable persons . But one will be sufficient for all the rest , who is the lyght , and honor of Spayne , for his incomparable doctrine and learning , he is called the Comendator , Hernam Nunes , maister of Rethorike , & other Artes , in the famous Uniuersity of Salamanca , who as yet would neuer put his health in the handes of any Phisition , and hath conserued the same aboue , 70. yéeres without their helpe .

You know also that in that tyme of great Pompeius was the toppe of the Mountain is for power : and dellycate Romaine wittes , as Plinie wryteth , and other Authors . Howe Aesclepiades the famous Phisition , condempned the Rules & preceps of all others , and cured onely with dyet & rule , in eating , drinking , and rubbing the ioyntes and members , so that with these things of great experience , he condempned vtterly Purgations , Uomyts and such lyke : the fruite of his curing dyd so much profite , that he onely was praysed and admytted , and infinite people came vnto him .

The same Plinie sayth in his . 35. Chapter , that he happened to cure one that was thought to be dead , and caried to burying , or to be burned , as then the vse was : so that Aesclepiades sayde , that his medicine was certayne , which he affirmed of himselfe , because his regiment kept them from sicknesse , or else he required not to be taken for a Phisition : and truly , be emplyed the thing which he affyrmed , for he himselfe was neuer knowen to be at any tyme sicke vntyll his death , although he lyued verie long , and with the fall from a Ladder , he ended his lyfe .

So that it appeareth manifestly by mine allegations and proofes , that my opinion is not new , or singuler , but common and of great antiquitie , bothe certayne and true : and for such you ought to embrace it , and so I hartely pray you . Wherwith all I conclude , although I leaue much behinde to auoyde prolixitie .

Don Nunio .

Truly Signor Iasper , you haue sayde well , and I for my part am so tender of condicion , that euery one hauing ended his tale , carryeth me with him . But yet now I will stay a whyle to heare the determination of the Signor Maister .

Bernardo .

If you will giue me leaue , I promise that my aunswere shall not want . But sithens the Signor Maister hath to giue sentence in Iustice so manifest , béeing so iust and wise a Iudge : there néedeth no farther information .

¶ The Iudgement and determination of the Maister . Maister Velasques .

TRuly Signor Dun Nunio , I would gladly be frée from my bond , because I sée each of these Gentlemen so earnest in theyr opinions , yea , and the cause so well treated and defended , that I take the Plea for doubtfull : But sithens the matter consisteth not in any Article of the fayth : I may speake what I thinke , and they shall haue what they payd .

Don Nunio .

Yet syr I pray you procéede , although they are so bent to theyr opinions , they referre the determynation to your learned iudgement , so that they cannot chuse but humble themselues thervnto , wheras reason demaundeth the same .

Bernardo .

That which Signor Don Nunio sayth , is true , and therin we will bothe receyue curtesie , at the least I for my part excéeding great .

Iasper .

And I much greater , for I beléeue assuredly , his woorshippe will approoue my opinion .

Maister Velasques .

Because I holde it for a good exercise , I will fulfyll your requestes , and giue my vowe in the matter , for I haue no iurisdiction to pronounce sentence , nor yet your maistershippes bound to passe or accept the same . But if I speake any thing to purpose , each may accept what he please , for I meane not to argue or dispute , but bréefly in few woords , I will speake what I thinke . Your contencion principally consisteth in two points , and all the rest is accessary thervnto .

The first is , that the one sayth , that for to cure humaine infirmities , neither Arte nor Science , is néedefull , but onely suffiseth vse and experience .

The other sayth , that Arte & Rules are most néedefull , and he that should cure , ought to be a Maister , learned , bothe in Arte & Science , and to haue great foundation in learning , as largely the matter hath bene communicated .

The second point which séemeth to come from the first , is , that Signor Iasper , who holdeth the part of only experience , would that there should be no knowen Phisition : but that generally all men ought to cure . And Signor Bernardo , defendeth the cause & sayth , that it is conuenient to haue them .

The troth is , that the first & principall question is not new , nor yet you the first that haue mooued and disputed the same : but rather it is very auncient in medicine and among Phisitions . And we say that alwayes haue bene the lyke discord , for some doo follow only experience , and therfore they were called Experts . And other desirous to knowe the reason and causes , and therefore they were named Rationalles . Cornelius Celso , and other Authors doo wryte thereof at large , and bothe the one & the other , hath had great fauorers , so that of these two first extremes ●f of force the one must be accepted , and the other to haue remedy .

The last perill and most reasonable , is to follow the first , as Aristotle sayth , that those of experience are most fit , and able to cure , then the learned without experience . And speaking perticulerly , Plato of Phisitions , in his bookes of common weale , affyrmeth that a good Phisition néedeth to communicate bothe with sick and whole men , yea , and that he himself haue bene also sicke , finally , the ought to be experimented : and also there is no doubt , but that medicine and Arte therof had his origen of experience , and no otherwise . So that in this case Signor Bernardo hath no reason to deny the same , for certaynly the experiences béeing knowen , men as amazed began thereby to enter into Philosophy , and thereby to séeke out bothe reasons and causes , and so is this true in other actes , as well as in medicine , whereof is aucthor Aristotle in his bookes of high Philosophy , and also Marcus Manillius , and Virgill , doo testifie the same , saying : by vatiable cases experience made Arte. And because I doo not remember which of these Gentlemen alleadged Saint Ambrose .

I doo remember nowe that fauouring and holding part with Medicine , he dooth say and affirme in the same , I will therfore declare his woords , because his aucthority is great , which are these . Where sayth he , had Medicine origen , but onely of infirmitie . And where in the first age , men would teache theyr successors , and Decendentes , what thinges had done them good , and wherewith they cured theyr diseases , whereby vse made Arte , and infirmitie made maisterie , and that is the first and sufficient medicine , which experience made , and not the coniecture , and therefore they were called Expert , so that out of this sort sprung the other , and from thence tooke his vse & force , so that woord for woord , S. Ambrose affyrmes the same .

But to auoyde wearinesse , I alleadge not other reasons and aucthorities , for therein is no doubt at all : but that experience was origen to medicine , & totally necessarie . But yet notwithstanding , those that were named expert , remayne not victors , who will not allowe any other thing but onely experience , nor yet are ouercome . The Rationalles , which followeth Arte , because betwixt these two opinions there is a thyrd , & a meane which ought to be obserued , and that is . That although experience was , and is the origen , and without the same we can not well craue this faculty : yet notwithstanding , after the expected preceptes , Arte was profitable , and not onely profitable , but also necessary , as well for the inconstancie and chaunges which are in experience , as by reasons . Héere hath bene touched , as well to chuse and know the best , which without learning were vnpossyble to doo . For it is a playne case , that without learning and doctrine you can not make an intiere iudgement and election .

And if this thing should not be reduced to Rules and Arte : all should be confusion , and forgetfulnes , and discord would confound all : so that if onely experience should be admytted . Yet Arte and Rules thereof , should be needefull to knowe and learne , howe and at what tymes , in what places , at what ages , in what dispositions , to what infirmities , and to what occations the●●●ofit to some , and what vnto others , and hereof perforce wée can not be without Rules and meanes , and this is the Arte which may not be wanting : for although experience hath bene the origen , and knoweth howe to finde , but not to kéepe .

But Arte dooth kéepe and conserue : also you haue no leysure , euerie day to make experience , nor all men can not make euerie proofe , nor yet to carrie in minde the thinges that hath bene done without Rule and artifice therof . And for proofe of a thing so notorious , it shall not néede many reasons , nor aucthorities , for the experience wée haue before our eyes , that there is no worke nor occupation so base , which is not guyded by Arte and reason .

The Husbandman , and the Marriner of whome Signor Iasper spake , saying , vse maketh maisterie . Although the same were so , yet they can not want theyr Regimentes , grounded vpon experience , wherby they were guyded , and learned theyr Arte , to be a lyght to teach others the thinges , whereof experience neuer wanted vnto them .

The like dooth the Mason , the Carpenter and other Artificers , who ioyntly with vse and experience , haue their foundation and Rules . And sithence medecin hath a more precious and higher suiect : it is no reason that it should by them be deminished , how much more many of the other causes , and knowledge of other things , which already hath béen argued , and although same will say that to know such thinges : should not notoriously be necessary . Yet at the least they cannot deny , but that it is profitable , & also although the same should not make a Phisition more perfit : yet he should be made more discréet and aduised , all which things can not be brought to passe without the learning of Arte and Rules , & if these things are difficult & many , they are not therefore to be refused nor yet the knowledge of them , as Signor Iasper affyrmeth : we know well that Arte is long , but yet continuall labour and goodwill ouercommeth And also if all may not be known yet passe with the possible , and most necessarie : and though there be varietie in oppinions , yet also their are determinations , and resolucions , there are also Phisitions and Counsell for all , wherof the good Phisition , ought to be replenished , more then an other , of this opinion are the moste of the wise and learned Aucthors . But chéefely Plato in his booke of Rethorick , saith , for this cause is Arte the medecyn , for why : it is a faculty that dooth consider & know the nature of him that cureth , and the cause of the thing that worketh , and can of those thinges giue a sufficient reason . And that which is alledged is not to be vnderstood only necessary to cure the infirmytie , but also , a way to sustaine the health : for although Signor Iasper say that we know how to eate and drinke without counsell of the Phisition , or other Arte by only experience : true it is , but he that so dooth vsing temperaunce : dooth follow counsels and Rules , and also aduises giuen by Phisitions and wise men , and not so dooing commonly is caused infyrmitye .

And euen so the moste Sapient Cicero in his second booke of Offices , affyrmeth that for to gouerne and sustaine health , is needefull for a man to know his owne complexion , and to abstaine from suche thinges that offende him , and to vse of other thinges which agrée , and are profitable for him , and to followe the counsell and Arte of them who knowe the same , meanyng the Phisitions . So that to conclude , for with men so graue and wise , I néede not to enlarge .

The resolucion and my vowe is touching the first poynte , which was if onely experience were sufficient , or else if Arte and learning were néedefull of which two wants in a Phisition : The want of learning is more to be suffered than the want of experience , but also that the perfit Phisition ought to be expert and learned , so that the Medecine muste appeere on bothe sides , that is aswell in the experimented as rationales , and ought to haue Arte , precepts , and foundation ioyntly with experience .

Now let vs precéede to the second point , which is whether it be néedefull to haue perticuler Phisitions , apointed & ordained or no. I say that of my former words dooth follow the true conclusion : that it is necessary to haue Phisitions and knowen maisters , and that generally all men may not be of that vocation for although that only experience were necessary : it were not possible that all men should be experymented . How much more we haue approoued , and holde for certaine that Arte , Rules , and variable doctrines are néedefull , the which cannot be commen . And sithence of all other Artes , and mecanycall Artifices , there are workemen , and knowen Maisters : Medecin ought not to be of lesse condicion and to haue learned me therein , bothe to study and dispute if néede require : then coning to be experimented , may vse and cure with holly medecine : And it is not to holde for comparison , that Christ did commaund all the Apostles to cure and heale infirmities , for that purpose was only to lay foundation of our holy faith , and not principally for corporall health whereof we now treate : how muche more , bothe for the one , and for the other , he chose and apointed seuerall persons , and gaue no power without distinction and election , the office and names of ordayned Phisitions , Signor Iasper , are of more antiquity , then as yet we haue spoken , no nor yet your profaine writers make thereof no proofe , for before Aesculapius , or Ipocrates , aboue 500. yeares , were Phisitions in the world , we reade Gen. chap. 50. that Ioseph commaunded his Phisitions in Egipt , to anoint the dead body of Iacob his father , and in Exo. chap. 21. among the lawes that God gaue vnto Moyses for his people is one , that he who hurteth his neighbour shall pay , what be looseth in his worke , for the time spent , and also the cost and hyer of the Phisition where manifestly appeareth the wages and reward of the Phisition is iust and of great antiquitie , and in other places of holy Scripture , we finde that Phisitions were ordayned & knowen , as appeareth in Peralipomenon 2. Chap. 16. where king Assa was reprehended because he called not on God in his sicknesse , trusting more in the Arte of the Phisitions , in which place it is plainly called Arte and not experience , which place maketh for our purpose , and euen so are there many other moe . The History and example of Asclepiades , which you aledge , who was in the time of great Pompeus , is true . And in that time began the sect , and maner of curing . But it was a plaine and a manifest deceit that he intended , because he knew not how to cure by Science , as Plyny himselfe affyrmeth : for he was an Oratour , and because he gayned little by that office , he determined to make himselfe a Phisition , and there spronge that heresy in Medecine , as other hath doone in other Artes , but as a thyng without foundation , it indured but a while , how muche more Esclepiades made not medecyne common : but his meaning was to inuent a new Arte , and to make hymselfe Maister thereof .

So that Gentlemen , let vs vnderstande that experience made the Arte of Medecine , and that it is necessary to haue perticuler expert and learned Phisitions , and also I say another thing which as yet hath not béene touched , and is the moste necessariest of all , which is that such men ought not only to be learned , but vertuous faithfull Christians , and fearefull of God without the which no good Arte can be ministred , and for the abuses and defects which Signor Iasper hath touched , I knowe well that some doo passe in the world , and I truely desire the remedy of them . But I say not what such Phisitions are , but I declare what they all ought to be . I also say and knowe some that synneth not in their opinion in manifesting them of their dealing , aswell in their mallice as in theyr medecynes , but the good Phisition will cure Christianlye and plainely , and apply according to wisedom the Medecines conuenient , he also knoweth what is néedefull , either in Medecine simple or compound , which is the chéefest thing that Signor Iasper hath impugned , but not with reason , for although the simples are excellent and doo profite to mixe one with another : I say it is not hurtfull , for some vertues and properties doo helpe and temper others and that which one force could not doo : two or thrée do finish , for seldom , one humor offendeth the pacient , therefore it is to prouide for a whole & compound infirmitye , and thereto to apply compound medecine , and euen as we are compounde of sundry complexions and elements , euen so we stande in néede of compounde medecines , aswell as of simples as in all things we sée plainly , in hot Countries , we myxe stronge wine with water , we compound thinges to make them more profitable for vs , we also ioyne and mixe our meates , to make them more sauery and medicinall , to Uinegar we put oyle , & to Hunny , Sugar , all things doo ioine , temper and resist , the which certainly is most necessary in medicine , and is of great effect and profit . But if in these things and others there be any indiscreete Phisitions or euill woorkemen : we should not therefore reprooue the good , nor yet the Arte , which of itselfe is good , holye and profitable : but rather to procure that euery one be such as is conuenient , and to desire of God the same , vnto whom this Citty of Ciuill in my iudgment ought to giue moste harty thanks , for the plentie of good and learned Phisitions , which dwell in the same , of whom truly I presume . But particulerly I haue had familiar conuersation in my diseases with fowre or fiue of them , and assuredly in them dooth conteyne the qualities of excellent men , bothe of experience , learning and goodnes , and I haue the same opinion of many of the others , and although Signor Iasper is not contented with onely literature and precepts : let him therfore loue , and procure iointly with them experience , and also Signor Iasper , condemne not the doctrine in Phisitions , and trust not so little vnto them that you let to cure your selfe , when you are sick . But my meaning here is not of such Phisitions as the Iester tolde the Marquesse Ferrara , of whom Pontanus writeth . But now here is no place to tel that tale , although it is not euill to declare , for such as heretofore hath not harde therof . But sithence it is now late , I conclude for this day , the thing I was required to do : and the rest shall remaine for another day .

Don Nunio .

Signor Maister , I sweare vnto God , that I beléeue there is no more to be saide , sithence you haue so singulerly well determined the cause , & at the least I for my part , am fully satisfied , and should finally profit in any further disputation of these Gentlemen , to chaunge me from your sentence , howbeit I beléeue that now they are of your iudgement , for alwaies troth is of great force being also holpen by your authoritie and eloquence .

Bernardo .

I for my part doo holde myselfe satisfied , and doo consent in the determination of Signor Maister , and I thinke Signor Iasper will doo the like , and so we may depart as we came .

Iasper .

I cannot chuse but kéepe silence to the thing that Signor Maister hath sayd , and the same ought to be moste certaine , sithence he hath so pronounced : but yet in my iudgement I thinke it not conuenient to cure with Phisitions , but rather take diet and good Regiment to be sufficient , yea and I haue heard them their selues say , that to cure therewith is a moste happy cure , so that still I will follow experience and counsell and you not able to condemne me , and for the other matters , let them passe in good time , as Signor Maister hath declared : and so we may depart , and God giue vnto your Worship entire health , that you neuer néede any Phisition , but onely that you may dye of age .

Don Nunio .

Patience is good for aduersytie , but yet I wyll not that ye depart vntill Signor Maister hath tolde his tale , touching the Phisitions of Ferrara . And with his tale Disputation shall ceasse for this day , for it is not late , and time there is for all .

Maister Velasques .

Because , Signor Iasper shall pacifie his anger , I will recite the tale , although he hath read the same as well as I : the History is . That on a time , Nicholaus Marquesse of Ferrara , sporting and iesting with his Iester , he enquired of him of what Science or occupation were most number in Ferrara ? the Iester aunswered , saying sir , the moste in number of any one trade are Phisitions , the Marquesse hearing this aunswer , laughed him to scorn , saying , thou idiot séest thou not that of that facultie there is not in the Citty aboue fiue or sire , and I am sure there is aboue 300. Shoomakers , and as many of many other Occupacions ? The Iester aunswered , sir , where your Lordship is occupied in great matters you haue no particuler recknings , nor yet you know what nomber of Massailes you haue , but beléeue me sir I haue told you troth , that of the Art of medecin is the greatest number in Ferrara , and I dare lay 200. Ducats that you shall finde it so .

The Marquesse began to laugh againe and to deny his opinion , and in conclusion the wager was layde , although he iudged it for simplicity and madnes , and so he soone forgot what he had layd . But the Iester who had great desire of the money that was laide , hauing well considered the matter : The next day in the morning he arose , being Sonday , and wrapped clouts about his head , & Towe and Wooll bounde to his chéekes , fayning that he was wonderfully vexed with the tootheache , and in this order he sate him downe at the doore of the Cathedrall Church of the Cittie , and had sitting by him a boy who was his sonne , that had good skill in writing , this lad had his Pen , Inkehorne , and Paper , now the Iester being a man so commonly knowen in the Cittie , the people that entered and came out of the Church asked of him the cause of his sicknes , and he made aunswer to euery one that he had a maruelous paine in his téeth and Gummes , desiring them for Gods sake to giue him some remedy for the same , and where we generally vse to giue counsel to those whom we sée suffer any pain : as many as passed by tolde him what to take , although some one thing , and some another . So that his boye foorth with wrote euery mans name that had giuen any remedy , and hauing abode there the time conuenient , and his copie of names and medcines full , and in the pickle that he sate at the Church dore : he went to the Marquesse Pallace , who had cleane forgotten his wager , & as the Marquesse espied him , he as other had doone , enquired the cause of his greefe , and being answered as the others were , he of gentlenes tolde him of remedy wherewith he should be whole . The Iester sayde sir & kisse your Honours handes , and after a while that he had abode there , he went his way home to his house , and caused all his processe to be written fayre , which amounted to néere 500. persons , who were all Phisitions , and the Lord Marquis was placed for the first and principallist in the copie , and euery mans medecine ioyned with his name , the next day he came to the Lord Marquesse Pallace without his rags about his head , as a whole man , saying , right Honourable sir , now I am whole , and I thanke God cured by the moste honourablest Phisition of all Italy , which is you , for with your good counsell I obtained my health . Therfore I pray you commaund to pay the wager : for assuredly for my disease I founde all these Phisitions in Ferrara , that are here contayned in this memoriall , and if I would haue fought for more , iwis I had found more . The Marquesse beholding the roule of names and medecines , and séeing himselfe the first man , and many other principall persons of the Cittye , he laughed , and confessed that he had lost his wager , and commaunded the same to be payde foorth with , which truely was a merry iest . So that if Signor Iasper be contented with suche Phisitions : I say he hath reason , and shall finde aboundaunce .

Don Nunio .

By my trothe the tale is pretie , and to be laughed at with reason . I wyll therefore stay you no longer , depart on Gods name .

Iasper .

The Iester was pleasaunt , but I promise you on my faith , that if he had the tootheache in déede , he mought haue béen cured with the counsels giuen vnto him . And I would rather trust the 500. Phisitions contained in the memoriall , then the fiue or sixe , which the Lord Marquesse spake of . And with this conclusion Signor Bernardo let vs depart , for although we haue béene earnest in our Disputation , yet we wyll depart as good fréendes as we came hether .

FINIS . T. N.