Papisto-mastix, or The protestants religion defended Shewing briefely when the great compound heresie of poperie first sprange; how it grew peece by peece till Antichrist was disclosed; how it hath been consumed by the breath of Gods mouth: and when it shall be cut downe and withered. By William Middleton Bachelor of Diuinitie, and minister of Hardwicke in Cambridge-shire.

A BRIEFE ANSWERE to a Popish Dialogue between two Gentlemen ; the one a Papist , the other a Protestant .

The Dialogue . Sectio I.

PApist . Doe you beléeue the Catholicke Church planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea , and afterward dispersed through the whole world , which Church hath euer since remained on earth , and shall so continue vntil the second comming of Christ ? Protestant . All this I doe beleeue . Pap. Are the Protestants of this Church , or the Papists , or both ? Pro. The Protestants onely . Pap. Haue you any outward meanes to perswade you , that the Protestants are onely of this Church , or are you mooued thereunto by inspiration onely ? Pro. The inward meanes is the spirite of God ; the outward is the canonicall Scripture . Pap. This inward meanes lyeth hidden in your owne breast ; but how do you by this outward meane discerne the true Church ? Pro. That church which doth teach & practise the doctrine conteined in the canonicall Scriptures , is the true Church of Christ : contrariwise , that church which in matters of faith , teacheth a a Wittingly and wilfully . any doctrine repugnant , or not grounded vpon the same word , is an hereticall Church , & a synagogue of Satan . Pap. The Scriptures , you say , are the outward meane for discerning of the true Church , haue you some outward meanes to discerne the canonicall Scriptures , or doe you know them by inspiration onely ? Pro. The outward meane is the vniforme b b There be other outward meanes , beside the consent of antiquitie . consent of all antiquitie . Pap. You doe then receiue the testimonie of ancient writers for the discerning of the canonicall Scriptures , why doe you not likewise beléeue that the Apostles did leaue many things to be obserued in the Church by tradition without writing , séeing that the one and the other is confirmed by the like vniforme consent of ancient writers ? Pro. The Scripture is the sure rocke whereon to build our faith , wherein all things are contained necessarie for our saluation .

The Answere .

IT is a common saying , that such as doe deficere in extremo actu , faile in the last act , are foolish Poets ; but whether they be foolish Diuines , or no , that faile euerie where beginning and ending and all , iudge you ; and that you may doe it the better , obserue I pray you , how vntowardly this popish Diuine begins to lay his foundation , that you may the better iudge of the whole frame of his building . The word [ Catholicke ] is taken three maner of wayes ; first , for that which is opposed to heretical or schismaticall , as Ecclesia Catholica , the Catholicke Church , and Ecclesia Martyrum the Church of the Martyrs , Haeresi. 68. in Epiphanius . Secondly , for that which is opposed to the Church of the Iewes , for such a signification hath the word [ Catholicke ] in the inscription of Saint Iames his Epistle . Lastly , for the generall fellowship of all the children of God elected and adopted in Christ Iesu before the foundations of the world : for none else can bee the members of the bodie of Christ : Eph. 1.23 . & Colos. 1.24 . and in this signification it is taken in our Creed .

Now it would be knowne , which of these significations is meant in the first question , the first signification restraineth the word [ Catholicke ] to particular Churches , & it is not like that your Papist demaundeth , whether you beleeue this or that Church in particular . Againe , the second opposeth the word [ Catholicke ] to the church of Iurie , wheras your Papist includeth the church of Iurie , before there was any other church any where planted : in his question , saying Doe you beléeue the catholique Church , planted first by the Apostles in Iudaea , and afterward dispersed &c. The last signification is applied to the Saints of God predestinated to saluation , 2. Tim. 2.19 which Church was neuer planted by the Apostles , but by the eternall decree of God who onely knoweth who are his .

Againe , I can hardly brooke that the Church is here said to be first planted by the Apostles , for God had his Church euer from the beginning ; or that it hath remained euer since the Apostles planted it , for it hath remained euer from the beginning : now if it be sayd , that hee meaneth the Church vnder the Gospell ; Rom. 15.8 . Heb. 2.3 . it will trouble him to prooue that the Apostles were the first planters of that Church in Iudaea , seeing Christ himselfe was minister of the circumcision , and first began to preach saluation before it was confirmed by them that heard him .

Moreouer , that the Church was euer dispersed through the whole world by the ministery of the Apostles , is sooner said than prooued ; for though Paul say , that the fall of the Iewes was the riches of the world , yet doth hee not meane the whole world simply without exception , no more than Saint Luke doth when he saith that Augustus Caesar decreed that all the world should bee taxed ; Luk. 2.1 . Math. 28.19 . Luk. 24.47 . Mark . 16.15 . Act. 16.6 . &c. 2. Cor. 10.13 . &c. and so must wee vnderstand all Nations in Matthew and Luke , and all the world and euerie creature in Saint Markes Gospell : for though the words be generall , and without limitation , yet the Apostles were kept in , and guided more particularly by the holy Ghost .

Lastly , it would bee agreed vpon , what faith or beleefe your Papist meaneth , when hee saith , Doe you beléeue the catholicke Church , whether iustifying or historicall ? For though he seeme to fetch his question out of the Creed , wherein the articles of iustifying faith are recorded , and so to make the catholicke Church inuisible , for faith is the euidence of thinges not seene : Heb. 11.1 . yet when hee addeth planted by the Apostles in Iudaea &c. he maketh it visible , and so not to be beleeued . Wherefore though this first question haue neither head nor foot ; yet thus in charitie I conceiue of it , that it demaundeth , whether we beleeue historically that there were orderly Churches or companies professing catholicke doctrine taught by the Apostles first among the Iewes , and then among the Gentiles , which profession and professors shall continue in one place or other to the worlds end ; if this be the question , then haue you answered catholiquely , first that you beleeue this , and then secondly that the Protestants onely are the visible and knowne members of Gods church . Now where it is demaunded in the third and fourth place how wee knowe this , whether by outward meanes , or by inspiration : it is answered , that the canonicall word of God doth so testifie , and better witnesse than this we desire none ; and touching this word of God , the Papists graunt all those bookes to bee canonicall , which wee call canonicall , though they adde other Bookes which wee admit not for grounds and foundations of faith : but if wee cannot make good our profession by those bookes which both sides agree vpon , and by the same bookes ouerthrow all that the Papists hold against vs at this day ; then I for my part , will soone yeeld to the Pope , and craue absolution vpon my knees .

Nowe forsooth the discerning of these canonicall Scriptures is called into question , and they must bee subiected to the infirmity of man : howbeit your answere , though it be true , yet is it insufficient ; for howsoeuer , the vniforme consent of antiquitie is not to be neglected : yet as our Sauiour saith , Ioh. 5.36 . that he had greater witnesse than the witnesse of Iohn ; so hath the holy Scripture greater witnesse than the witnesse of the Fathers , namely , the puritie and incontrolled antiquitie of it , the Maiestie of the stile , the conformablenesse of the precepts thereof to the lawe of nature , and diuers other outward meanes noted by Master Caluine in his Institutions ; Lib. 1. Cap. 8. otherwise it were hard to tell how the men of Beroea , and other ancient Christians discerned the Scripture in the Apostles time and after , Act. 17.11.12 before any one of the ancient Fathers was borne , or had written a syllable : and herehence it is easily gathered how vaine the sixt question is , for traditions are not confirmed by such pregnant euidence as the Scriptures are , but hange in the winde vppon the conceits of men , which may be deceiued , and therfore a Christian man may well beleeue the one , though he neglect the other ; Rom. 1.16 . Heb. 4.12 . 1. Cor. 2.4 . 1. Cor. 14.24.25 . Luk. 24.32 . the powerfull working of the word of God described by Saint Paul , and the Author to the Hebrewes , and the Disciples of Christ in Saint Lukes Gospell are sufficient witnesses to the soule , that Traditions which haue not the same image and superscription , may be refused as the commandements and doctrines of men .

The Dialogue . Sectio II.

PA. Do you not perceiue , that by this description of the Church , you haue giuen two mortall wounds vnto your owne cause ? first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane out of the Church by you described ; and secondly , you thrust out all the ancient Fathers , and Doctors that euer flourished in the Church since the Apostles time ? Pro. The wounds you speake of ( surely ) are not mortall , for as yet I feele them not . Pap. They will prooue sensible when they come to the searching ; first you haue excluded the Protestant and Puritane , who hold many points of Doctrine not a a These points are warrantable by Scripture , as it shall appeare . warranted by the Scriptures , as the obseruation of the Sunday , in stead of Saturday which was the Sabbath of the Iewes ; that Christians may eat bloud ( notwithstanding the decrée of the first generall Councell to the contrarie : ) that a christian Magistrate may punish theft with death , which in a Iewish Magistrate was a breach of the commaundement ; that it is a greater offence in a christian to haue Concubines , and many wiues , then it was in Dauid , who notwithstanding was a man according to Gods owne heart ; that Christians should be tied vnto the law prescribed vnto the Iewes for marriage within degrées of affinitie , and not vnto the like law prescribed to the brother , to raise vp séede vnto his brother dying without issue . For all which you haue no warrant out of the scriptures . Pro. For all these points of Doctrine , wee haue sufficient warrant out of the booke of God ; and first concerning the Sabbath of Christians it is euident in the 20. of the Acts , that the Christians did assemble themselues the first day of the weeke to heare Paul preach , and to breake bread ; likewise in the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle to the Corinths , it appeareth that Saint Paul did ordaine in all the Churches of Galatia , that collection should be made for the poore , vpon the first day of the weeke , where hee doth also exhort the Corinthians to doe the like vpon the same day : whereby it is euident that the Sunday was appointed by the Apostles to be the Christians Sabbath , which is nothing else but a day of rest from labour , and a day to bee bestowed in hearing the word preached , breaking of bread , whereby is meant administration of the Sacrament , giuing of almes , and other workes of deuotion and pietie : for proofe whereof , out of the places aboue alleaged , I doe draw this argument against you : That day wherein the Apostles did ordaine , that Christians should weekely meete together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached , receiuing the Sacrament , and giuing of Almes : that same day did the Apostles ordain to be the Sabbath of Christians : but the Apostle did ordaine that Christians should weekly assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke for the purposes before mentioned : therefore the Apostle did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath . Pap. I denie the Maior , for ( that being graunted ) if the Apostles did appoint moe daies in a wéeke than one for Christians to assemble themselues for the like Christian exercises , by the same argument you a a Non sequitur . Looke the answere . may likewise prooue two Sabbaths in one wéek ; and no doubt those Christians , who liued together in the fellowship of the Apostles , sold their possessions , and had all thinges common , That b b is not their intent . Act. 2.45 . to the intent that they might be wholy employed in the seruice of God , had moe dayes than one in a wéeke appointed for that purpose . Your Minor proposition also , which is , that the Apostle did ordaine that Christians should assemble themselues vpon the first day of the wéeke , &c. is false , & not warranted by either of the places of scripture by you alleaged . In the 20. of the Acts , the first day of the wéeke is not prescribed vnto Christians , as a day whereon they ought to assemble themselues for the seruice of God , but there only mention is made that the Disciples were assembled on the first day of the wéeke to break bread , and that Paul ( intending to depart on the morrow ) continued preaching till midnight . Let vs c c Admit what you will , yet the first of the weeke is the ordinarie appointed day . admit that Saint Paul was to depart on the Tuesday , and that the Christians were assembled on the Monday to breake bread , and to heare Paul preach before his departure , might not I in this case , make as stronge an argument , to prooue Monday to be the Christians Sabbath , as yours is for the Sunday ? In the 16. Chapter of Saint Pauls 1. Epistle vnto the Corinths , the Apostle doth prescribe the first day of the wéeke vnto the Corinths , as a day whereon they ought to lay aside for the poore as their deuotion shall serue ; it is not preaching , prayer , or administration of Sacraments , that is in this place enioyned , but it is a laying aside for the poore . Why doth the Apostle enioyne this contribution for the poore to be made at that time ? the answere followeth in the text , That there be no gatherings when I come : Why would the Apostle haue no gatherings when he came ? no doubt because hée would not haue such spirituall exercises , as he determined to bestow amonge them at his returne vnto them d d Then this day was not onely for collections , but for spirituall exercises . , hindered or impeached by such collections : if this were the meaning of the Apostle , then is it not like that he would appoint the Sabbath for the making of such collections , which is wholy e e Not wholy , so as no time should be spared for collections . to be employed in such spirituall exercises as hée meant to vse amonge them at his returne , and therefore this place would better serue a wrangler to prooue that the first day of the wéek was not appointed to be the christians Sabbath , then it will serue you to the contrarie . Pro. Out of this place it may be gathered that the Christians , vpon the first day of the weeke , did weekely assemble together , for there is no time so fit for collections , as generall assemblies ; and a weekely assembly vpon that day doth manifestly proue it to be the Sabbath . Pap. You can wring no generall assemblies out of that place , for the text saith , Let euerie one put apart by himselfe , and lay vp , which argueth rather f f Neither doe we imagine , that all saw what euerie man gaue , or tooke it from him , but he himselfe layd it vp , as the rest did , in the common purse ; else Paul must either gather it , or tarry the gathering of it , when hee came . a priuate laying vp at home , than a contribution in an assembly , as your marginall note in the English Bible interpreteth : for how can a man bée sayd to lay vp that which he doth deliuer to another in such a contribution ? Pro. It appeareth in the first of the Reuelation , that in Saint Iohns time , the first day of the weeke was called the Lords day , which is as much as if hee had called it the Christians Sabbath . Pap. You shall find in that Chapter , that Saint Iohn was in the spirit on the Lords day , whereupon you may conclude , that in Saint Iohns time one day of the wéeke was called the Lords day , which we doe graunt ; and more than that , that the first day of the wéeke was then called the Lords day , ( which would haue put you to your shifts to haue prooued out of the word ) yet haue you gained nothing : for what consequent is this , the first day of the wéeke was of the Apostles called the Lords day , therefore the Iewes Sabbath is to be abolished , and the first day of the wéeke is to be obserued for the Sabbath of Christians ? might not the first day of the wéeke be called the Lords day in regard of Christs resurrection , and yet the Iewes Sabbath remaine , or be abolished , as other of their ceremonies were , without substituting another Sabbath in place thereof ? Or will you rather reason thus ; Saint Iohn could be in the spirit but on the christians Sabbath only , Ergo , the first day of the wéeke is the Sabbath of christians if this be your ? argument , you doe but clauum clauo pellere , for when you shall haue prooued your antecedent by the word , then will I graunt the consequent , and as easily may you prooue the one as the other : but let it be admitted , that you can prooue by scripture , that the Christians were enioyned by the Apostles to assemble themselues wéekely vpon the Sunday , to ioyne together in prayer , & hearing the word preached : yet what word haue you to prooue , that g g Neither doe we say , neither can you proue it is . all bodily labour is vnlawfull vpon that day ? they might well assemble in prayer vpon that day , and heare 2. or 3. sermons , and yet spare some time to bestowe vpon their labours , and the commaundement forbiddeth labor on the seuenth day , and not h h The first day is now become the seuenth . on the first day of the wéeke . Thus you may sée ( while you do nodum in scirpo quaerere , by séeking to prooue that by scripture , which the Church doth hold by tradition ) how you are driuen to wrest the scripture , and how weake and ridiculous your arguments be . If the obseruation of the feast of Easter , and other festiuall dayes , prayer for the dead , or the Sacrifice of the Masse , had found the same entertainment with Iohn Caluine , as the obseruation of the Sabbath hath done : I doubt not but that ( although he would not haue allowed of traditions ) yet hée would haue found you as sufficient proofe for any of them out of the word , as hée hath done for the Sabbath : for so great a mote in your eyes is the tradition of the Church , that if your appetite serue to take liking of any point of doctrine grounded thereon , you will make any homely shift , rather than you wil acknowledge the true i i Tradition , a fountaine in Poperie . fountaine , from whence it springeth ; and no maruell , for acknowledge the authoritie of those traditions , which k k If you may doe what you lift , we cannot stand . by the testimonie of all antiquitie , were first deliuered by the Apostles , and haue euer since béen obserued , and deliuered ouer as it were from hand to hand by succession of Bishops , and your heresie wil fall to the ground . The next point of doctrine which you doe hold without warrant of scripture , is , that it is lawfull for Christians to eat bloud , which was forbidden by the decrée of the first generall Councell where the Apostles were present : l l I will finde you scripture for this in Saint Pauls Epistles . what scriptures haue you to doe contrarie to a Canon of so great a councell ? Pro. It is manifest , that in the infancy of the church , the Apostles hauing to do with the Iewes , a people wonderfully addicted to the strict obseruation of their law , did not thinke good to take from them all the ceremonies thereof at once : but rather by little and little to seeke to winne them by tolerating many things for a time , which in the Gospell were abolished ; and to that intent Paul did circumcise Timothy , Acts 16. Pap. What warrant of scripture haue you to prooue that the commandement was giuen to be obserued but for a time , in regard of the weaknesse of the Iewes ? Pro. Wee haue the word to prooue that the ceremoniall lawes were abolished by the death of Christ , whereof abstayning from bloud is one : and it is euident by the 15. of the Acts , that the assembly of the Apostles in the first generall Councell at Ierusalem , was vpon this occasion ; they of the circumcision which beleeued were greatly scandalized , because the Gentiles , who were ioyned with them in the vnitie of the same faith , had vtterly reiected their law , whervpon much controuersie did arise between them ; the Iewes contending that the beleeuing Gentiles ought to be circumcised , and to obserue the lawe of Moses ; and the Gentiles to the contrarie . For appeasing whereof the sayd Councell assembled , and decreed that the Christians should abstaine from blood , by eating whereof ( as it seemeth ) the weake Iewes were greatly offended , intending thereby somewhat to satisfie the Iewes , and yet not to lay too heauie a yoke vpon the Gentiles . Thus you see how by the word the eating of bloud was prohibited vnto the Christians of those times , and how by the word it is permitted vnto vs . Pa. By what word can you prooue that the m m This fellow loues to beare himself speak else would he not make such an idle repetion . eating of bloud , which was both prohibited vnto the Iewes before the Gospell , and to christians in the Gospell , is now lawfull for vs to doe ? that the law prescribed to the Iewes , concerning marriage within degrées of affinitie , is still to be retained ? and that the like law which commandeth the brother to raise vp séede vnto his brother deceased without issue , is to be abolished ? that it is lawfull for a Christian Magistrate to take away a mans life for 12. d. which was not lawfull by the law of God to doe , but in such cases onely as in the same law are specified ? with many other such like instances too long to repeat : when you haue tired your selfe in searching and wresting of scriptures , you shall finde n n Else are you deceiued . no other warrant for them , than the continuall practise and tradition of the Church . Pro. It appeareth in the 5. Chapter of the 1. to the Corinths , that Paul did disallow of marriage within degree of affinitie , which is warrant sufficient , for the retaining of the lawes prescribed to the Iewes on that behalfe . Pap. You haue no such warrant out of that place : for the text saith onely , There is a o o The fornication had not been so haynous , if the Sonne in law might marry his Mother in law . fornication among you , not once named among the heathen , that a man should haue his fathers wife ; it will be hard for you to prooue out of this place , that the Fornication here specified , was committed by a marriage betwéen the Sonne and the Mother in law p p All this is but vaine talke , that helpes him not a whit . for the lawes of the Corinthians would permit no such marriage to be celebrated , as it may be gathered out of the text : for if such a fornication be not named among the heathen , much lesse is it permitted by the lawes of the Corinths , and therefore this Fornication was committed , by hauing his fathers wife as a Concubine or a Whore , and not as a wife , as you imagine .

The Answere .

YOur Papist heere talkes in his sleepe of two mortall wounds , which wee by our description of the Church , haue giuen to our owne cause ; and therefore your description must bee had in memorie , which as it bindeth the true Church to the voice of Christ , sounding in the canonicall Scriptures : so it giueth vs to vnderstand that the false Church heareth the voice of stangers , and will not bee ruled by the written word of the Almightie ; yet notwithstanding the true Church may mistake the voice of Christ , and so erre ; whereby the first wound is fully healed : and if it should be graunted , that the Church in generall cannot erre , yet it followeth not , that euerie one in particular that buildeth hay or stubble vpon the foundation , is therefore no member of the Church : And so the second wound , which speakes of the exclusion of the Fathers & Doctors , is neither mortall , nor sensible . Now touching the first wound , which cencerneth the Protestant and Puritane , it is here brought to certaine particular points , which I will speake of in order : The first is , the obseruation of the Sunday , which you proue syllogistically out of the Scripture , after this manner .

1. The day whereon the Apostles did ordaine , that Christians should weekely meet together to exercise themselues in hearing the word preached , receiuing the Sacraments , and giuing of Almes : that same day did the Apostles ordaine to be the Sabbath of Christians .

2. But the Apostles did ordaine , that Christians should weekely assemble themselues vpon the first day of the weeke , for the purpose before mentioned .

Ergo , The Apostles did ordaine the first day of the weeke to be the Christians Sabbath .

Now , where your Papist saith ; That if the Maior were true , then the Apostles appointing moe dayes than one for such exercises , should appoint moe Sabbaths in a wéeke than one , his answere hath no colour or shewe of reason , for though euerie day in the weeke had beene so appointed : yet had they not beene all Sabbaths , vnlesse they had weekely continued , as the first day did from weeke to weeke , till Saint Iohns banishment ; at what time still wee finde that day kept holy , and dedicated to the Lord , as appeareth by the name , which the holy Ghost giueth it in the Reuelation . Cap. 1.13 . Againe , where he saith : That the first Christians sold their possessions , to the intent they might wholy bestow themselues vpon the seruice of God : It would be knowne by what tradition , or inspiration he found that out , seeing the scriptures informe vs , Act. 2.45 . that their intent was to supply the necessitie of their poore brethren . I trow , the other Iewes that were to attend dayly vpon the morning and euening houres of praier and sacrifice , did not vnload themselues of their possessions : moreouer this lawe and sale of possessions , though it were vsed at Ierusalem , yet was it not in force in Galatia , and Achaia , and other Churches of the Gentiles , 1. Cor. 16.2 . Gal. 6 , 6 , &c. which had of their owne to put aside and lay vp for the poore .

And touching the Minor , your Papist sayth , that the Troiane Christians were assembled the first day of the wéeke to breake bread , but not appointed so to doe by the prescription of the Apostles ; belike they came together by hap hazard , or by their owne appointment ; howbeit , hee that planted the Church of Troas , cannot be so forgetfull , as to leaue euery man separately to himselfe , and not to appoint when they should assemble themselues , for the continuall watring of that which was planted : Act. 20.7 . now to note what time that was Saint Luke names , the first day of the weeke , otherwise there is no reason why it should bee mentioned : moreouer whereas Paul , and his companie came to Troas the second day of the weeke , and tarried there iust seuen dayes ; yet no day of assembly is registred but this one onely day ; and yet we may not think that Paul , and his companie lay idle sixe daies together , and forgat the worke of their calling : yea , but let vs admit , ( saith your Papist ) that Paul was to depart on the Tuesday , and that the Christians were assembled on the Monday , &c. Yea marry , then should we be wise men , but the Disciples of Troas met not to heare Paul preach , ( for most of them had heard him preach before sixs dayes together ) but to breake bread , which they would haue done , though Paul had not beene amongst them ; and therefore this supposition is cloudie and riculous .

Touching the place to the Corinthians , your Papist saith that Saint Paul doth not prescribe the first day of the week for prayer , preaching , and administration of Sacraments : but for a laying aside for the poore , according to euery mans deuotion , and I graunt all this to bee true : for those holy exercises were inioyned the churches of Galatia and Achaia , when they were first planted , and so was the collection for their owne poore : for this collection for the Saimes at Ierusalem was extraordinarie : but that the Apostle Paul would bee so troublesome , as not to content himselfe that this collection should be made , as their other collections were , vpon their ordinarie meeting day , but to appoint another day weeke by weeke , to the hinderance of their seuerall callings , is vtterly incredible ; nay see further , I pray you , how your learned Papist doubleth the power of the argument which he goeth about to weaken : for when he asketh [ why the Apostle inioyneth this collection to be made vpon that day , ] and answereth himselfe out of the text , [ that there be no gatherings when I come , ] and then asketh againe , [ why the Apostle would haue no gatherings when he came , ] and answereth with a [ no doubt ] because he would not haue such spirituall exercises as hee determined to bestow among them , hindered by such collections : what doth he else but confesse , that the first day of the weeke was the day , that Paul purposed to keepe holy at his comming , and therefore would not haue that day bestowed vpon collections , when he came , but before his comming : otherwise if hee had meant to bestow spirituall blessings so plentifully among them vpon any other day , then gatheringes made vpon that day , could not hinder him .

Yea , but if these collections were hinderances to the spirituall exercises of the Sabbath , then it followeth , that the first day of the week , wherin Paul would haue these collections made , was not appointed to be the Christians Sabbath . Well wrangled : but howsoeuer this extraordinarie collection , inioyned by Saint Paul , might hinder Saint Paul himselfe , that preached at Troas till midnight ; nay , till the dawning of the next day , Rom. 15.29 . and vsed to come with abundance of the blessing of the Gospell of Christ : yet their owne ordinarie ministerie , being farre lesse plentifull , could not be so easily hindered : Apol. 2. and therefore wee read in Iustine Martyr , that in his time , beside preaching and administring the Sacraments , collections were made vpon this verie day in Christian Churches .

One wrangle more remaineth against the force of this place to the Corinths ; namely , that no generall assembly can be wrung out of it , because the text saith , Let euerie one put apart by himselfe , and lay vp , which argueth a priuat laying vp at home : for a man cannot be sayd to lay vp that which he deliuereth to another . Well wrangled againe : but what ? call you this a gathering ? and is this kinde of laying vp at euerie mans owne home , a sufficient dispatch of all gathering , so as there should be no gathering at all , when the Apostle should come himselfe amongst them ? Wherefore little wringing will serue to prooue that this laying vp , is not meant of euerie mans owne purse , or cupbord at home , which might be done any other day , as well as the first of the weeke ; but of some publique Chest or Boxe , prouided for euerie mans free beneficence , as euerie particular man himselfe found himselfe able and willing .

Now followeth the place of the Reuelation , where Saint Iohn saith , that he was in the spirite on the Lords day , or , Cap. 1.10 . Psa. 74.16 . as the Rhems Testament translates it , the Dommicall day ; Out of which we learne , first , that albeit all the dayes of the weeke are the Lords ; yet this day is so called 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 as being a more excellent or eminent day , than the rest , and so consequently a day consecrated to the seruice of the Lord . Secondly , we learne that this day was famously knowne by the name of Lords day , or Dominicall day , in the Churches of Asia , Reuel. 1.4 . to whome Saint Iohn dedicated his Reuelation for it had been to no purpose for him to tell them , that hee was in the spirite on the Lords day , if they knew not what day that was , and how it was seuered by that name from the rest of the weeke , and therefore as it was an eminent day , and chosen from amonge the other dayes of the weeke for the speciall seruice of the Lord , so was it celebrated as an eminent day , and so still kept in fresh memorie in the Churches of Asia : now that this day was the first day of the weeke , and no other , it will bee easie to shew without shifts , not onely because no other day was euer permanently kept holy , but also because we may trace the name 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , and Dominica , applied to this day , as it were a Hare in the snow , issuing out of this place of the Reuelation , into all the Churches of Christendome . Yea , but ( saith your Papist ) Might not the first day of the wéeke be called the Lords day , in regard of Christs Resurrection ? I say no , for then it had been called the Rising day , or , the Resurrection day ; as the like dayes be , namely , Ascension , Circumcision , &c. For to call it , the Lords day , in regard of Christs Resurrection , is vtterly insensible .

When he demaundeth further ; Whether the Iewes Sabbath might not remaine , or be abolished , as other Ceremonies were , Col. 2.16.16 without substituting another Sabbath in place thereof ? I answere , that the Iewes Sabbath is taken away by Saint Paul , so farre forth as it was ceremoniall , but the morall parts thereof , namely , that one day in a weeke should be layd apart for spirituall meditations and exercises , Exod. 23.12 . and for the recreation of seruants and dum creatures , was to be kept still inuiolable without any such substitution , as he dreames of : and so his other wranglements about bodily labour , and resting the seuenth day , not the first day of the weeke are cleane dasht ; Mat. 12.5.11 . Mark . 2.27 . & 3.4 . Luk. 13.14 . &c. Ioh. 5.8 . &c. & 9.6.7.14 . Iren. lib. 4. ca. 19. howbeit , that which was the first day of the weeke , is now become the seuenth day , and bodily labour was neuer altogether vnlawfull , no not in time of the lawe , as appeareth cleerely in many places of the new Testament . Now iudge you , or any reasonable man else in the world , whether our arguments , or his answeres be weake and ridiculous : as for his Tradition , the more he vrgeth it , the more hee confuteth himselfe , and confirmeth our exposition of these three places : for if the Apostles deliuered the obseruation of the Sabbath by Tradition , wee may not thinke they deliuered it to some Churches , and not to other some ; and if they deliuered it to all without exception , then was it deliuered to them of Troas , to the Galatians , Corinthians , and the Churches of Asia ; if to them , then can it not bee denied , but that these places of scripture , which I haue now disputed of , doe cleerely containe the practise and continuall obseruance of the Lords day , as it was deliuered to these Churches by the Apostles . I will not vouchsafe to answere your Papists vnpowdered talke of Iohn Caluin , that worthy seruant of God , and wire-whipper of popish marchants out of the house of God , onely this I will say , that if Iohn Caluin were not a greater mote in his eie , then Popish traditions are in ours , he would haue spared this idle vagarie .

The next point is , eating blood , Act. 15 . 2●.29 which was forbidden in the first generall Councell , the circumstance whereof you haue well set downe ; howbeit your Papist still calls for Scripture , whereby it may be shewed him , that after the decree made at Ierusalem by the Apostles , it was lawfull for Christians to eate blood ; which hee would neuer doe if hee were learned , and had read the Epistles of Saint Paul with any diligence ? wherefore you may stoppe his mouth for this point , out of these places which I haue here quoted , 1. Rom. 14.2 , 3 , 6 , 14 , 20 , &c. 1. Cor. 10.29 . Coloss. 2.16 . Timothie 4.4 . Tit. 1.15 .

Now followeth the third poynt , which hangs vpon Tradition and not vpon Scripture , Leui. 28. & 20 Deut. 25.5 . namely the forbidding of marriage within degrees of affinitie ; as if Leuiticus were no scripture ; yea but , ( may he say ) Deuteronomy is scripture too , as well as Leuiticus , yet the brother is there commanded to raise vp seede to his brother , which in Leuiticus is made vnlawfull ; now tell vs why you receiue the one and refuse the other ? here must you call for the helpe of Tradition , or els lie in the dust ? Alas , good Papist , you are much deceiued , for the law of Leuiticus is morall , and naturally ingraffed in the hearts of all nations , as appeareth euidently in the conclusion of this law in Leuiticus , from the foure and twentieth verse to the end of the eighteenth Chapter : for if this Law had beene peculiar for the Iewes , there is no reason why the Canaaniticall nations should bee punished so seuerely , as there it is described , for the non obseruance of the same : as for the other law of Deuteronomy , it is an exception or dispensation in that particular case , for the common weale of the Iewes , wherein God had a speciall care of the first borne and his inheritance : againe , being repugnant to nature , and to the explication thereof twice told in Leuiticus , Cap. 18.16 . & cap. 20.21 . it might not continue longer vnrepealed .

Touching the example of the incestuous Corinthian which you propound ; it will sticke better to your Papists ribbes , then he is aware of : for how can that fornication be vnheard of among the Gentiles , which a man committeth with such a one as hee may lawfully marrie ? if then this Corinthian might lawfully marry his mother in law , verily single copulation with her could not be so abominable , as that the very Gentiles could not abide it should be once named amongst them , and if single copulation of the mother and sonne in law was so much abhorred , then was it vnlawfull they should marrie , and so the law of God in Leuiticus is confirmed ; and so indeed your Papist gently confesseth in these words [ the law of the Corinths would permit no such mariage , as may be gathered out of the text , ] &c.

The fourth poynt followeth , namely , that it cannot bee shewed by scripture , that it is a greater offence in a Christian , to haue many wiues , then it was in Dauid , howbeit we read in Scripture , that God gaue him his masters wiues into his bosome ; 2. Sam. 12.8 . Rom. 4.15 . Nulla lege prohibebatur , August . contr. Faust : lib. 22. cap. 47. Matth. 19.4 . &c. 1. Cor. 7.2 . &c. Eph. 5.31 . & if there be no transgression where there is no law , as Paul saith , then verily Polygamy , being neither cleerely forbidden by any law , nor reprehended by any Prophet from the beginning of the world , to the comming of Christ : it must follow , that it was eyther no transgression at all in the fathers , or a farre lesse transgression then it is in Christians , whom Christ Iesus himselfe , and the holy Apostle Saint Paul , hath so manifestly instructed , that nothing can be more euident .

Now touching the fift and last point , of punishing theft with death , it is confessed by your Papist , that it was lawfull by the law of God , in cases specified in the same lawe , that is , Cap. 22.2 . as I take it , if the thiefe breake vp a house , for that I finde specified in Exodus . Howbeit Dauid in a case not specified , giueth sentence of a thiefe , that as the Lorde liueth , he is the child of death , that is , that he should surely die and also that he should make a fourefolde or eightfolde restitution , 2. Sam. 12.5.6 Arbangtaijm ( Arbangtaijm ) Now if the Hebrue word be taken for eightfold , as no Romanist may deny , Exod. 21.1 . because the old catholicke translation hath so set it downe ; we see plainely , that beside the sentence of death , Cap. 6.31 . which Dauid iustifieth with an oath , the punishment specified in the law , is doubled ; nay , the incresse of the punishment appointed by the law , is cleerely made good in the Prouerbs of Salomon , where it is sayd , that a thiefe being taken , shall restore seuen fold , or giue all the substance that he hath . Rom. 13.4 . and touching the christian Magistrate , S. Paul saith , 1. Tim. 5.20 . that the wicked should feare the sword of vengeance , which God hath put in his hand , where feare is made the end of punishment , as it is in Timothy : where the same Apostle saith , them that sinne , rebuke openly , that the rest may feare , but if open rebuking did not strike such a feare as bridled sinners from corrupting their wayes , then Timothy was to proceede to a more heauye censure , that might worke this feare , and so keepe downe sinne from multiplying in the Church , and euen so ought the ciuill Magistrate to temper penall lawes in the ciuill state , that euill disposed men may feare , and neuer to take his lawes to be sufficiently penall , but still to increase the terrour of them , till feare to doe euill ; be sufficiently planted , and this equitie doth the Lord himselfe retaine in his owne displeasure , or indignation against sinne ; Psal. 90.11 . for so the great Prophet of God Moses teacheth vs in these words , thereafter as thou art feared , so is thy displeasure : wherefore these two , displeasure and feare , are like the two buckets of a Well , whereof the one commeth vp , when the other goeth downe ; and the one is at the highest , when the other is at the lowest : briefely then to conclude , as the Lord saw the punishment appointed in the law powerfull enough at that time , and a long time after , to worke feare in that Nation and State , but yet was increased afterward by the Iewish Magistrates , as they saw the disposition of the people to require it : so the christian Magistrate finding by experience , that the state and condition of his time and countrey is more desperate and lesse fearefull to robbe and steale then the Iewes were , and so not to be ruled without a greater sharpnesse ; must needs whe this sworde , and strike deeper then the Iewish Magistrate , that he may be feared .

The Dialogue . Sestio . III. Tradition .

PAp . I will a a It is better to omit them , then to speake of them so childishly as you haue done of the rest . omit those other pointes of doctrine , which you doe hold without warrant of scripture , for breuities sake , and passe vnto the searching of the second mortall wound , which as I sayd , you haue giuen vnto your owne cause , reseruing your answere to the rest , vnto your better leasure and premeditation ; yet , by the way let mée shew you the great difference betwéene the antiquitie and you in this point , b b We can ackdowledge no such traditions . who receiued the traditions deliuered by the Apostles , without writing , and continued and obserued from hand to hand , with no lesse reuerence , then they did the written Scriptures . Irenaeus saith of the heretickes of his time , that when the Scriptures were alledged against them , they would answere , that the Scriptures could not be vnderstood of those that were ignorant of the traditions , and that when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles , and kept in the church by succession of Bishops , were obiected , they would answere , that they had more vnderstanding then the Bishops or the Apostles themselues , and that they alone had found out the trueth . lib. 3. cap. 2. whereby you may see that the c c They might better doe it then , then you now . Catholiks in the first age of the Church , did alledge against the hereticks of that time , Scripture and Traditions , euen as the catholikes of this time do alledge the same against the heretickes of this time , and herein onely consisteth the difference , when Scriptures are alledged against the heretickes of this time , they doe flie to the interpretation ; when the interpretation of the Bishops , that is , of the ancient catholicke Doctors is produced against them , they answere in effect , that they haue more vnderstanding then the Bishoppes , and that they alone haue found the trueth : when the Traditions deliuered by the Apostles are d d You may sooner alledge them , then prooue that the Apostles deliuered them . alledged , they answere , that the Apostles did leaue none such , or if they did , that they are not to bee receiued , vnlesse they can bee prooued out of the canonicall Scriptures : thus you appeale from traditions to Scripture ; when scripture is brought against you , you appeale to the interpretation , and from the interpretation of the fathers , to the interpretation of Caluin , or to the e e This is but the imagination of your brayne . imagination of your owne braine , as to the supreame Iudge and primum mobile of all your religion , but let vs procéede in shewing the great difference betwéene the fathers & you herein : Epiphanius , O portet autem traditione vti , non enim omnia a diuina Scriptura accipi possunt , &c. Wee ought to vse traditions , beeause all things cannot bee learned out of the holy Scripture . And a little after it followeth , Tradiderunt itaque sancti Des Apostoli peccatum esse post dicretam virginitatem nubere , lib. 2. to . 2. haeres . 61. The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered , that after the vow of virginitie , it is sinne to marrie . The same father for the confutation of Aerius , vseth the authoritie of the tradition of the Apostles , haeres. 75. and for the confutation of Seuerus , hee voucheth a place out of the booke a a Then the Apostles deliuered them written in a booke . of the Apostles Constitutions , haeres . 45. Saint Augustine , Many things which are not found in the writings of the Apostles , b b How can it be knowne , whether this beleefe were right or wrong ? are beleeued to haue beene deliuered by the Apostles by tradition , because they are obserued through the vniuersall world , de baptis . cont. Donat. lib. 2. fo. 2. The same Author saith , that the vniuersall Church doth obserue , as a tradition of the fathers , that when mention is made of the dead ( at the tim of the sacrifice ) that they should be prayed for , and that the sacrifice also should bee offered for them , de verb Apost. serm. 32. Saint Chrysostome citeth a place out of the Canons c c These Canons are in writing . of the Apostles ; and to this effect could I alledge the testimony of all ancient fathers and doctors , as it were with one mouth , so that if you should deny S. Iohns gospell , I could vse none other d d The more vnwise you . proofe against you for the one , then I can for the other , which is the testimony and consent of antiquitie , and e e Surety you are deceyued . surely by denying of traditions , you haue brought your selfe into a very intricate Dilemma , for eyther you must proue f f That is soone done . by scripture , that the first day of the wéeke ought to bee kept holy as the Sabbath of Christians &c. and grant that all the ancient fathers , who were Papists , and held many things by tradition , were damned g g If they were Papists , they were heretickes , but they were neyther of both . heretickes , or else that you are hereticks your selfe .

The Answere .

NOw followeth as it were ( by the way ) a blind inartificiall proofe of Traditions out of the authoritie of men , Lib. 3. cap. 2. Lib. 3. cap. 1. whereof Irenaeus is the first ; yet Irenaeus speaks not of Traditions , but with this Preface , non per alios dispositionem salutis nostrae cognouimus , quam per eos per quos Euangelium peruenit ad nos , quod quidem tunc preconiauerunt , postea vero per Deivoluntatem in Scripturis nobis tradiderunt fundamentum & columnam fidei nostrae futurum : We haue knowne the manner or order of our saluation , by none other men , then by those , by whom the Gospell came vnto vs : which then indeed they preached , and afterward by the will of God deliuered to vs in the scriptures to be vnto vs the foundation and piller of our faith . Now hauing layd this foundation in the first Chapter , and concluded withall that all heretickes dissent from the Scriptures , hee begins the next Chapter after this sort ; Cum enim ex scripturis arguuntur in accusacionem conuertuntur ipsarum scripturarum , quasi non recte habeant , neque sint ex authoritate , & quia variè sint dictae , & quia non possit ex his inueniri veritas ab his qui nesciant traditionem : For when they are conuinced by the scriptures , they fall to accusing the Scriptures , as if they were not 〈…〉 set downe , or not of sufficient authoritie , and because things are diuersly spoken , and because the trueth cannot be found in them by those which know not the tradition .

These hereticks are as like the Papists , as if the one had bin spued out of the others mouth : I trow , you vnderstand who they be that call the scriptures of God , dead incke , a dead and a dumbe thing , dumbe iudges , the blacke Gospell , inckehorne diuinitie , a nose of waxe , &c. if you know them not , reade Iewels Apology , and there you shall find them , Part. 4. cap. 19 di. 1. Sectione 23. your owne Papist saith , that [ the Scriptures without the helpe of church , fathers and councels , are the fountaine of all heresie and atheisme , ] thus heretickes doe and haue done alwaies , quia ex scripturis arguuntur , saith Irenaeus , and so , eyther the scripture or their heresie must needs fall . But to proceede , Irenaeus tels you why these hereticks would not be ruled by the scriptures , namely , because Paul saith , sapientiam loquimur inter perfectos , and this is Bellarmines owne reason , for vnwritten verities , borrowed , as you see , 1. Cor. 2.6 . De verbo Dei non scripto lib. 4. cap. 11. Tertullian . of these old heretickes , and confuted by Tertullian in his Prescriptions , but thus the spirite of Antichrist goeth on still in these dayes , as it did in Irenaeus and Tertullians time , to make way to his owne dreames . It was full time for our Papist here to draw the Readers mind awry to Iohn Caluin , and I wot not what [ appeales ] and [ imaginations ] and [ braines , ] and such like floures of popish rhetoricke ; otherwise it had bin easie to see that hee and his friendes are the sonnes and heires of Valentinus , Marcion , Cerinthus , Basilides and Carpocrates , all of them , or some of them , as Irenaeus teacheth vs : and this may be yet better seene , in that Irenaeus being driuen from scripture , Iren. lib. 1. cap. 23. & 24. & lib. 3. cap. 2. which these heretickes contemned , to Traditions , which before they seemed to allow of ; he can no way fasten vpon them , neither by Scripture , nor Traditions , vnlesse they might be masters of both , as being wiser men in their owne conceites , then eyther the Apostles that deliuered them , or the Bishops that kept them . Now iudge , who bee the heires of these heretickes , Iohn Caluin , as this Papist prateth , or the Pope and his dependants , whose religion is called by Saint Paul ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) that is , 2. Thes. 2 : 7 , 8 Ni● . Cusanus de auth. eccles. supra & contrascript . Albert. Pighius , eccles. hierarch . lib. 6.13 such a mysterie , as will be ruled by no law , a mysterie of lawlesse iniquitie , and the Pope himselfe ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) that is , a lawlesse man , such as will stoope neyther to Scripture nor Tradition : one of his Cardinals saith , Nulla sunt Christi praecepta , nisi quae per ecclesiam pro talibus accepta sunt : There are no precepts of Christ but these , which the Church accounteth to be such ; so the Church of Rome is aboue the Scripture . And another Champion saith , Papa virtualiter est tota ecclesia , the Pope is in power the whole Church : and so the Pope is aboue the Church . Thus the Pope must be first , the Church must be next ; and the scripture giuen of God by inspiration , Must haue the third place . must , consistere in tertijs , and be glad of such roome , as these great masters will afford it : Quapropter vndique resistendum est , saith Irenaeus , wherfore wee must set our selues against them euerie way . If scripture will not serue , we vse tradition : and if both be contemned , wee vse all other meanes that may bee thought of , to draw them ad conuersionem veritatis . This is Irenaeus his conclusion , & whole discourse in this Chapter , which makes nothing at all for Popish traditions , which are not alleaged as witnesses , and backes to the truth of the scripture , nor yet against such as denye the perfection of the worde written .

Epiphanius is next , who , if he had sayd , Oportet traditione abuti , We must abuse tradition ; our Papist and his friends had been beholding to him : but Epiphanius saith else where That he gathered the truth of the doctrine of God , Ex vniuersa scriptura , out of the whole scripture ; to be an anchor-hold vnto vs , Heres. 69. Epip . Anchor . and in the beginning of his Anchorate , thus we read : De vide vobis scribam , quum requiratis vos , & fratres nostri ea quae spectant ad vestram salutem ex diuina & sancta scriptura firmum fundamentum fidei de patre & filio , & spiritu sancto , & de reliqua vniuersa in Christo salute , de resurrectione , inquam , mortuorum , & de vnigeniti in carne aduentu , & de sancto testamento veteri ac nouo , & in summa de alijs constitutionibus perfectae salutis , I will write vnto you concerning the faith , ( seeing you and our brethren require of vs the things which concerne your saluation , ) out of the holy scripture a firme foundation of faith , concerning the Father , the Sonne , and the holy Spirite , and all the rest of the matter of our saluation in Christ , to wit , of the resurrection of the dead ; of the comming of the onely begotten in the flesh ; of the holy Testament both old and new ; and in briefe , of other constitutions pertaining to the perfection of saluation . Now we may consider with lesse danger of the place here alleaged ; wherein that Epiphanius be not misunderstood , we must consider that these words ; Omnia a diuina scriptura accipi non possunt , Wee ought to vse traditions , because all things cannot be learned out of the holy Scripture ; must be restrained to the matter in hand : for Epiphanius meaneth that the bare letter of this or that scripture , doth not afford sufficient helpes to vnderstand it selfe , but requireth other meanes for that purpose ; for thus stand the words , Diuina verba speculatione indigent & sensu ad cognoscendam vniuscuiusque propositi argumenti vim ac facultatem , oportet & traditione vti ; non enim omnia à diuina scriptura accipi possunt , &c. The words of God haue need of speculation , and sense to know the force and power of euerie argument propounded : we must also vse tradition , because al things cannot be learned out of the holy Scriptures . Now by these means , he expoundeth a place of Paul to the Corinthians , 1. Cor. 7.28 . If a Virgine marrie , she sinneth not ; this place ( saith he ) is meant of such as had a long time continued Virgines , because none in that paucitie of Christians , did offer to marrie them ; and therefore Paul permitteth , they should marrie with Iewes and Infidels ; you haue heard his speculation : yea , but why may not this place of Paul be meant simply of all Virgines mariageable without exception ? Epiphanius answereth , Tradiderunt sancti Dei Apostoli peccatum esse post decretam virginitatem ad nuptias conuerti , The holy Apostles of God haue deliuered , that after the vow of virginitie , it is sinne to marrie . You haue heard his Tradition ; but like speculation , like Tradition . For it is incredible that the Christians of Corinth , had not as many sonnes and daughters , as many males as females , more incredible , that there was such a paucitie of Christians in so populous a Church , as the Church of Corinth ; 2. Cor. 6.14 . and most incredible of all , that Paul should permit , that in his first Epistle , which he forbad in his second : and so his Speculation faileth him . Moreouer , it is a fond conceit to think that there were Votaries in Pauls time , or that Paul in the seuenth of the first to the Corinths , spake not generally of all Virgines , but of such as could not get Christian husbands , Propter penuriam charitatis : & so his Tradition is come to nothing ; No , no , if there had beene such Nuns at Corinth , the Apostle being requested to set downe his iudgment for the direction of Virgins , could not possibly forget that principall kinde of Virgines , that had most need of direction , & speak only of some other meaner regard , and that in such generall termes without any exception , or mention of votall Virgines . More ouer Epiphanius fortifieth his tradition out of Paul , who saith Iuniores viduas reijce , postquam enim lasciuierunt contra Christum nubere volunt habentes iudicuum , quod primam fidem reiecerunt , The younger widowes refuse , for when they haue begun to waxe wanton against Christ , they will marrie , hauing damnation , because they haue reiected the first faith . Concluding therof , that Virgins are much more to bee blamed than Widowes . if they turne back from their purpose of continencie ; wherfore it is not an vnwritten veritie , that Epiphanius obtrudeth vpon vs , but a conclusion drawne out of the first to Timothie ; Cap. 5.11 . &c. howbeit S. Paul reiecting yong widows from vowing or promising continencie , doth by the same reason reiect yong virgins , which be in as great danger of breaking their faith and promise , as young widowes , and so still we finde , that no such votaries were allowed to snare themselues with vowes , and religious promises in Pauls time : but left free to vse the remedie of marriage , according to the ordinance of God . But to make short worke , whether Epiphanius here speake of written or vnwritten verities ; yet hee concludeth in the end , that it is better , euen for Votaries openly to marrie according to the law , than to be wounded dayly by the secret darts of concupiscence ; then which , nothing can be more contrarie to the practise and principles of Poperie .

Touching the confutation of Aerius , it stands vpon a tradition of fasting vpon Wednesdaies and Fridayes till night , and feeding vpon breed , water , and salt sixe dayes before Easter , which is quite dead long agoe . Moreouer , Epiphanius opposeth his traditions to matter of faith , saying ; Ecclesia acceptam à patribus veram fidem vsque huc continet itemque traditiones , The Church doth still retaine the true faith receceiued from the Fathers , and also their Traditions . And therefore , if Aerius had offended against nothing but Traditions , hee had beene sound in the Faith notwithstanding , and so no hereticke . As for the Booke of the Apostles Constitutions , either Epiphanius lost it out of his bosome , or it is that which is extant vnder the name of Clemens , and condemned longe agoe in the sixt generall Councell at Constantinople : Can. 2. yet are these Constitutions allowed for good scripture in the last Canon of the Apostles , Lib. 2. cap. 59 Lib. 6. cap. 14 Lib. 2. cap. 63 Lib. 5. cap. 16 which the verie Papists themselues are ashamed of . And good reason , for they say in one place , that Iames the brother of our Lord was not an Apostle ; and in another place , that hee was not an Apostle : they say also , that the people ought to come together euerie day , morning and euening , which is no where obserued ; they say , that Iudas was absent when Christ celebrated his last supper , which is contrary to the scripture ; to bee short , these Constitutions are so full of errours and falshoods , that no honest Christian will father them vppon the Apostles , or allowe them for canonicall Scripture .

The place of Austine , which your Papist ( as a blind man ) casts his staffe at , is in the seuenth Chapter of the second Booke De baptismo contra Donatistas , and the wordes bee these , Multa non inueniuntur in literis Apostolorum , neque in Conciliis postererum , & tamen quia custodiuntur per vniuersam ecclesiam , non nisi ab ipsis tradita & commendata creduntur , Many things are not found in the writings of the Apostles , nor in the Councels of later time , yet because they are kept by the whole Church , they are supposed to be deliuered and commended to vs by none but them . These words , though they seeme plaine , haue some doubt , which somewhat quaileth the force of them : for it is not so easie to know whether , ab ipsis , should be referred to Apostolorum , or posterorum ; howbeit , I say further , that the Traditions that Augustine speaks of , are of the same nature with that one Tradition , which he treats of in those Bookes against the Donatists ; namely , the not rebaptizing of Heretickes ; which though it bee not expresly , and explicately set downe in the writings of the Apostles : yet Austine himselfe knew it might be soundly deduced out of the Scriptures , and so hee testifieth almost in euerie Booke of that worke against the Donatists .

Haeres. 75. The other place , which he alleageth out of Austine , sspeaks of a Tradition indeed , but it was a Tradition of the Fathers , not of the Apostles , and euen so saith Epiphanius of the very same tradition , Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta , the Church doth this by a tradition receiued from the Fathers . In Philip. homil. 3. And therefore Chrysostome went too farre , when he sayth , Ab Apostolis sancitum est ; it is decreed by the Apostles : but though there be places of good shew in Chrysostome , yet your Papist could say no more , but that hee citeth a place out of the Canons of the Apostles , and yet quoteth neither Booke , Chapter , leafe , nor Homily , where a man may finde it in Chrysostomes workes ; howbeit if hee meane the Apostles Constitutions , he hath his answeare ; if those Canons that be set downe in the first booke of Councels , I say , they neuer sawe any of the Apostles , but were begotten in later times , as it is most cleere in the Canons themselues , Can. 8. Si quis Episcopus , aut presbyter , aut Diaconus sanctum paschae diemante vernale aequinoctium ex Iudaeis celebrauerit , abijciatur , If any either Bishop , or Priest , or Deacon shall according to the manner of the Iewes , celebrate the feast of Easter before the vernall equinoctiall , let him be deposed . If this had been inacted by the Apostles , it may bee wondred how there could be such adoe , about the feast of Easter , betweene the East and West Churches , the whole matter being so cleerely decided aforehand by the Apostles themselues . Againe , when we read in another Canon , Can. 30. that such Bishops , as came by their Bishoprickes by secular Princes , should be deposed : it is easily seene that some of these Canons were not shot off , till the time of Christian Magistrates ; for Infidels ( I trow ) vsed not to giue Bishopricks , neither was there euer any so farre beside himselfe , as to seeke a Bishopricke by their meanes ; if this will not content your Papist : then let him shew me some reason , why these Canons are not set downe as a part of the new Testament , but marked by Pope Gelasius for apochryphall , Apud Gratian . distinct . 15. C. Rom. Ecclesia . and then I will consider whether it bee needfull to giue him another answere .

Thus haue I runne ouer the choisest testimonies that hee could finde in all the ancient Fathers and Doctors : for if hee could alleage all , as it were with one mouth , to speake for his blinde Traditions , as here he bragges , it is to be thought that either he hath chosen the best , or els that he hath no iudgment : as for Saint Iohns Gospell , beside the Maiestie of the stile , let him read Epiphanius against the Alogians , and there hee shall finde some better proofes for the confirmation and defence of it , than the testimonie and consent of antiquitie . Nowe , touching his Dilemma , which hee takes to be so intricate , a verie childe may easily dissolue it ; for wee doe not hold , that any thing can make a damned hereticke , but the stiffe and peruerse holding and auouching of such doctrine , as is contrarie or inconsonant to the holy Scriptures , whereof the Fathers are not guiltie , neither will any Papist at this day stand in defence of such Traditions , as agree not with the word written .

The Dialogue . Sectio IIII.

PRo. Your learning ( I confesse ) is farre beyond mine , yet if you will giue mee leaue to presse you with your own argument , I doubt not , but I shall compell you to make such an answere as may serue vs both . Pap. Take your course . Pro. You shall finde in Epiphanius . Haeres . 73. that the Apostles did ordaine , that the Wednesdaies should bee fasted through the whole yeere , ( except in the feast of Pentecost , ) and that sixe dayes before Easter , no sustenance should be receiued but salt , bread , and water : Now if you doe thinke , that these Traditions were left by the Apostles , why doe you not obserue them ? and why doe you seeke to lay a burden vpon vs , which you do refuse to beare your selfe ? Pap. You must vnderstand , that from the first planting of the Church , many thinges taught and deliuered by the Apostles , haue béen altered , and taken away partly by the Apostles themselues , and partly a a Then were their Successors ouer-sawcie , vnlesse they had warrant in the Scripture so to doe . by their Successors , as the alteration of times and euents , haue giuen occasion to alter or take them away for the good of the Church , as the communitie of all things , practised and allowed by the Apostles , the office of b b They were men as well as widow women . Rom. 12.8 . Widdowes instituted by the Apostles ; the prohibition of eating of blood decréed by the Apostles : the antiquitie did fast vppon the Euens of solemne Festiuall dayes , and watch in the nights ( as the name Vigilia yet remaining doth testifie ) but when an abuse was perceiued to growe therby , the watching was taken away , the fasting being continued , & practised in the Church at this day . August . ad frat . in Eremo Serm. 25. We might giue like instances of the Sundaies in Lent , which were not fasted in ancient times , with the Wednesdayes fast , by you alleaged out of Epiphanius , and many such like too long to repeat . Out of which we gather with the Bée , that the Apostles did ordaine many things in the Church , which it is lawfull for themseleus c c How prooue you their Successors might doe it ? and their Successors to alter , or take away when time and occasion should require it , for the good of the Church : but if wée shall gather hereof , that because the Church vpon graue deliberation , hath taken away some d d What bee those things ? things deliuered by the Apostles , that therefore Iohn Caluin , or any other priuate man , may ( at his pleasure ) reiect other some , we shal sucke poyson with the Spider : if I should argue with you , that because you doe reiect the Wednesdayes fast , which was e e We heare you say so . a Tradition of the Apostles ; that therefore wee may reiect the obseruation of the Sunday : it would séeme but a weake argument , although you could be content to confesse , that the obseruation of Sunday is grounded onely vppon the Tradition of the Church , which to doe were lesse shame vnto you , than to seeke so ridiculously f f It is better prooued , than you can proue your Traditions . to prooue it by testimonie of Scripture . The ancient Catholickes ( as you haue heard ) did vse the g g They might better doe it then , than you now . authoritie of Tradition for the conuincing of Heresies , yet was there neuer any of those Heretickes , that denyed the authoritie of Traditions , because the Catholicks did not obserue all the Traditions which were left by the Apostles . Saint Augustine ( in the place by me aboue alleaged , where he saith : That we ought to beleeue many things , which are not contained in the writings of the Apostles , nor in the councels of their Successors , as Traditions deliuered by the Apostles because they are obserued through the vniuersall Church ) doth giue vs an infallible rule for the true discerning of those Traditions of the Apostles , which we are bound to follow & embrace of which sort is all the doctrine of the Catholicke , which is not found in the written Scriptures : and surely this is so certaine and direct h h This rule cracks the crowne of Poperie . a rule , that it cannot deceiue or mislead vs ; for can we imagine , that a i i The Apostles planted no weeds , but the enuious man that loued Poperie . Mat. 13.25 . wéede not planted by the Apostles should spring vp , ouer-spread the vniuersall Church , remaine and continue from age to age ; be deliuered from Bishop to Bishop ; that so many generall Councels , in the meane time , should be assembled for the extirpation of such Bastard plants ; and that so many Catholicke Doctors in the meane time should write against heresies , and yet that such a wéede should still k k Antichrist did worke in Pauls time , and must work still , till he bee abolished by the brightnes of Christs comming 2. Thes. 2 7.8 . remaine without checke or contradiction ? Contrariwise , these Traditions deliuered by the Apostles , which are nowe generally abolished through the vniuersall Church : as the Apostles ( who were directed by the Spirite of God ) did first institute them , for the benefite of that state of the Church , wherein they were ordained ; euen so , when times haue altered the state of the Church , the Apostles Successors ( directed by the same Spirit l l Had they no other direction but the Spirite ? take heed you bee not an Anabaptist . ) haue altered or abolished them for the like benefit of the Church . In the Apostles time , when the Ceremonies of the lawe were lately abolished , the Iewes and the Gentiles intermingled , and people flocked together from all parts of the world , to heare the doctrine of the Apostles , and to see the miracles which God did worke by them , the communitie of all thinges , the prohibition of eating of blood , and the office of widowes , was profitable for that state of the Church , and m m A gros●e ouersight . vniuersally practised ; but when that state of the Church was altered , all those ordinances were altered , with no lesse benefite of the Church , than before they were obserued . Pro. If the generall practise of the vniuersall Church , be the rule wherby to discerne the Doctrine , which we ought to obserue by the Tradition ; then is all your Doctrine , which is not grounded vpon the Scriptures , not warranted by your owne rule , because it is not practised vniuersally ; for the contrarie is practised by the greater part of Christendome . Pap. This rule was sufficient before Martin Luthers time , for then was the Catholicke Religion n n It was neuer vniuersall , and it was hereticall both before , and after Luthers time . vniuersall : and therefore I desire to learne of you ; how ( since that time ) the sufficiencie thereof should be impaired : for if then it was a fault in Luther to dissent from the vniuersall Church : how can the same doctrine which was naught in him , be good in his Disciples ? Pro. The Greeke Church did celebrate the Feast of Easter vpon the 14. day of the month of March by Tradition of the Apostles ; the Latine Church did celebrate the same feast vpon the Sunday nexte following after the fourteenth day of the Moone of March , ( if the said 14. day happened not vpon the Sunday ) by Tradition also , the like difference was betweene them for the vse of leauened or vnleauened bread in the administration of the Sacrament , eyther of them grounding their doctrine vpon the Tradition : now , if you will confesse that the Traditions of the Apostles were not contrary vnto themselues , you see how vncertaine and dangerous it is to ground our faith vpon vnwritten Traditions . Pa. a a A paultry cauill . The Lutherans and Caluinists hold contrary opinions , ( either of them grounding his doctrine vpon the word of God ; ) will you thereupon conclude that it is a dangerous matter for vs to ground our faith vpon the worde of God ? Pro. The comparison is not alike , for in the one case the question is , whether of them hath the true Tradition ; and in the other , whether of them doth rightly interpret the Scripture , which both parties do agree to be the word of God . Pa. If I had said , how dangerous it is for euery man to ground his faith vpon b b Why not his owne , as well as another mans . I must like it , and so make it my owne before I can beleeue it . his owne interpretation , you had béene preuented of this answere , but you doe mistake the matter in part , for it appeareth by Epiphanius haeres. 70. that this difference betwéene the Latine and Greeke Church concerning the celebration of Easter , did grow vpon c c As though the Apostles did not practise it in their owne persons in both Churches but onely deliuer it by Tradition . the interpretation of the Tradition ; but the rule before mentioned , prescribed by Saint Augustine for the discerning of those Traditions , which wée are bound to imbrace and follow , doth frée you from all this supposed danger : for if the question be of such a point of doctrine which is not conteined in the word of God , and yet notwithstanding is practised of some particular Churches , people , or nations , but not vniuersally through the whole world ; such a point of doctrine wée are not bound by the said rule , to receiue as a Tradition left by the Apostles , yet notwithstanding if such a point of doctrine bée not contrary to the word of God , those churches or countries where such doctrine is practised , ought to receiue and reuerence the same as a doctrine left vnto them by their spirituall pastors and superintendents for their spirituall benefit ; concerning which , you shall finde sufficient for your satisfaction , in those aduertisements ( set downe by S. Bede ) which Pope Gregory sent vnto S. Austine the Monke , for answere of this very question , concerning the diuersitie of customes vsed in diuers nations in matters of Church gouernement . But let it bee d d You cannot chuse but graunt it . granted that it was doubtfull for a time , whether the Greeke or the Latine Church did obserue the right Tradition ; the like doubt and question c c You can be content to loose the Scripture , so you may keepe your Traditions . was sometimes made of the Apocalypse of S. Iohn , and of other pieces of scripture ; but since the one was decided by a generall Councell , and both is nowe receiued and beleeued of the vniuersal Church , there remaineth no more doubt in the one than in the other , the tradition leading vs to the trueth of them both . Thus it appeareth as cleare as the Sunne , that the Apostles left many thinges which are not contained in their writings , by Tradition ; Secondly , that many traditions left by the Apostles , are now abolished ; Thirdly , that that doctrine which is practised & beleeued through the vniuersall Church , hauing no ground out of the writings of the Apostles , and which hath béene vniuersally practised from age to age , and from Bishop to Bishop , is a Tradition of the Apostles , and to be followed and imbraced ; and consequently , that all the doctrine of the Catholickes ( which is not warranted by Scripture ) is f f That is to say , vpon a fancy of your owne . grounded vpon the Traditions of the Apostles , and therefore to g g How long ? till it please you to disa●ull them . be followed and imbraced .

The Answere .

HEere your Papist takes paines to shew vs another point of his [ learning , ] namely , why some Traditions bee kept , and some be out of date ; but very simply in my opinion ; for antiquity appointing both wednesdaies and frydaies to be fasted , let him yeeld me any colour of reason or [ circumstance of times or states ] why the Church should reiect the one and obserue the other : they were both in force with like authoritie , with like consent , in omnibus orbis terrarum regionibus , in all the countries of the world : Haeres . ●5 . as saith Epiphanius , they were agreeable in all pointes to Augustines rule , which is so certaine and direct , saith he , that it cannot misleade vs , yet for all this , wednesday fast must be packing , and fryday onely must continue ; what Church , I beseech you , did this , and when , and vpon what [ graue consideration ] was it done ? it is not enough for him to talke his pleasure flyingly of [ the communitie of all things ] no where practised but at Ierusalem ; of [ the office of widowes ] still in force where it may be had , [ prohibition of blood , ] rerepealed by Saint Paul and such like ; but hee should shew vs what eare-marke one Tradition hath more then another , why it may or should be cancelled ; and touching [ not fasting vpon Sundayes in Lent ] or any time else in the yeere , it was generally obserued in the Catholike Church , as the same Epiphanius witnesseth , In compend ▪ doctr. eccles. haeres. 70. epist ad Phil. lib. de coronae militis . who telleth vs also in another place out of the Apostles Constitutions , that he is accursed of God that fasteth vpon Sunday , qui affligit animam suam in Dominica maledictus est Deo . Ignatius calleth them that fast vpon Sunday ( 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 ) Christicides , Christ killers . Wherevnto Tertullian accordeth , saying , Epiph. 75. die Dominico ieiunium nefas ducimus , wee count it a haynous sinne to faste on the Lords day : yet notwithstanding , the Romanists haue found some [ graue consideration ] or other to disanull it , and to agree rather in that point with Aerius and Eustathius too , whereof the one was an hereticke , Socrates hist. eccles. lib. 2. cap. 33. whatsoeuer the other was , apud Aerianos studium est , vt in die Dominica ieiunent : Eustathius dominicis diebus ieiunandum docuit , the Aerians are carefull to fast on the Lords day : Eustathius taught that men ought to fast on the Lords dayes . And therefore your Papist , I trow , will hereafter find it best for him not to vpbraid vs any more with Aerius : yea , but when Traditions were alledged against the old heretikes , neuer any of them denied the authoritie of some , because other some were not obserued ; a great piece of matters , we may not do it , because heretickes did it not ; but can he shew vs what hereticke euer affirmed , that of one bunch or heape of Traditions , some may be taken and some refused ; and beeing all birds of a feather , some may flie away quite , and the rest may in no case flie after , but flutter still in their nest ? I wis , Augustines rule will not helpe in this case , for fasting vpon wednesdayes , and not fasting vpon Sundayes , was as generally obserued euery where , as any other Tradition that can be named , nay , what Tradition can be more strongly fenced , than that of the age of Christ in Irenaeus ? Iren. lib. 2. cap. 39. & 40 , Euangelium & omnes Seniores testantur , qui in Asia apud Iohannem discipulum Domini conuenerunt , idipsum tradidisse eis Iohannem , permansit autem cum eis vsque ad Traiani tempora , quidam autem eorum non solum Iohannem , sed & alios Apostolos viderunt , & haec eadem ab ipsis audierunt & testantur de huiusmodi relatione , quibus magis oportet credi ? ne his talibus , an Ptolomaeo qui Apostolos nunquam vidit &c. The Gospell and all the Elders which were with Iohn the disciple of the Lord , doe testifie that Iohn himselfe did deliuer it vnto them , and hee taried with them til the time of Traiane : now some of them sawe not onely Iohn , but other disciples also , and heard the same things of them , & testifie of such a report : whom then ought we to beleeue ? whether such men as these , or Ptolomey , who neuer sawe the Apostles ? Ioh , 6.57 . Here is scripture out of S. Iohns Gospell , and Tradition from Iohns mouth , and others of his fellow Apostles , for the exposition of the same , here bee all the Elders of Asia that heard it with their owne eares , and liued to the dayes of Irenaeus that writes it , and yet for all this I thinke the church of Rome will as soone beleeue Ptolomey the hereticke , as this Tradition .

The like may be sayd of the celebration of the feast of Easter in the churches of Asia , where the Tradition from Saint Iohn and Saint Philip the Apostles to Polycarp , and so forward , was fresh in memorie , obserued by many Bishops and Martyrs , Euseb. libr. 5. cap. 22. and confidently and resolutely auouched by Polycrates then angell of Ephesus , and a great multitude of Bishops gathered together in Councell vnder their hands : yet Victor the Pope made no account of it , and within a while after Victors death , most men think it was condemned for heresie . Now , I pray you , tell vs what the Churches of Asia should doe in this case ? shall they [ receiue and reuerence ] this Tradition still [ as left them by their Pastors for their spirituall benefite ? ] what ? shall they [ receiue and reuerence ] heresy , crossing the decision of a generall Councell ] so saith your Papist , if I vnderstand him , yet I doubt whether [ Bede or Pope Gregory , or Austine the Monke ] will make good his saying , nay , himselfe within three or foure lines after , eats his word againe ; for the contrary definition , saith hee , was [ receiued and beleeued of the vniuersall Church , ] and so by consequent of the Churches of Asia , notwithstanding all he said before of [ their spirituall Pastors and Superintendents , ] shall I now tell you what I thinke ? verily if this Tradition of the feast of Easter , and that other of the age of Christ , so credibly reported , so confidently auouched , deliuered ouer to so few hands , and so short a succession , were found hollow and false at the heart in the very nexte age that followed the Apostles , and at length , as the receiued opinion is , condemned for heresie : I know not how a man should frame himselfe to beleeue such Traditions to be sound and vndefiled , which haue no such pregnant euidence , and haue runne through the hands of so many pitchmongers as haue liued successiuely so many hundred yeeres after the death of Victor and Irenaeus .

Yea but , saith he , this was not vniuersally receiued and obserued , but onely of those Churches in Asia , and therefore [ we are not bound by S. Austines rule to receiue it , as a Tradition from the Apostles , ] well , then succession from hand to hand , and Bishop to Bishop in particular Churches , is not sufficient to make a Tradition apostolicall , let him hold that without partialitie , as well in Italy as in Asia : Howbeit Polycrates and those worthy Bishops and Martyrs of Asia may not be ruled by S. Austines rule , and if that Epistle of Polycrates subscribed Synodically by so great a multitude of Bishops may be credited : this Tradition cannot chuse but be Apostolicall , and so vniuersall in nature , though particular in practise , but what shall wee doe on the other side with the Tradition of the West Church , which was further fetched then the other by so many winters and sommers , as S. Iohn liued after Peter and Paul , that is to say , thirtie winters at the least , and so many sommers , wherein this westerne Tradition might well bee either Sunne-burnt or weather beaten ? shall we follow S. Austines rule here too , and so beleeue neither the one nor the other to be Apostolicall ? ware that , friend Papist , if ye meane to goe for a good Catholicke ; yet it is cleare , that the Tradition of the west Church was not [ vniuersally receiued ] no more then the other of the East , before the Nicene Councell ; & therefore either S. Austines rule was then no rule , or else no Christian for the space of 300. yeeres , was bound to beleeue that the one was left by S. Peter and S. Paul , no more then the other by S. Philip and S. Iohn ; nay , further we reade not , that any Canon was made contra Quartadecimanos in the Nicene Councell , whereby Epiphanius or any other father should score them vp for heretickes , but onely that it was thought meete the Tessaredecatites beeing few , Euseb. in vita Constant. lib. 3 cap 13. & 17. Socr. lib. 5. cap. 20. & 21. Sozom. lib. 7. cap. 18. & 19. Can. 8. Apost. should yeelde to the greater number : now whether they yeelded or yeelded not , we haue no sure euidence ; onely we may strongly coniecture they did not yeeld , by that we reade of this matter in Socrates and Sozomen ; as for that peremptory magisterial Canon , which casteth euery Bishop , Presbyter and Deacon out of the Church , if he celebrate his Easter ante vernum aequinoctium cum Iudaeis ; it is not knowne where or when or by whom or what it was enacted , and so consequently where or when or by whom or what it should be obeyed . Wherefore I for my part cannot disallow the resolution of Socrates , that the feast of Easter was neuer imposed vpon the Church by the Apostles , but brought to obseruation by the free choise and liking of Christian nations , and so continued by long custome , till by the brawling and immoderatenesse of some wayward men , the Church was constrayned to worke out her owne peace by vniformitie .

Now to Augustines rule ( beside a number of instances which may be brought against it , as namely , the dignitie of Alexandria ouer Aegypt , Lybia and Pentapolis , and the dignitie of Rome ouer the West prouinces , which the Councell of Nice groundeth neither vpon Scripture , Apostle , Can. 6. Ierom ad Euagr . & in epist. ad Tot. Aug. epist. 19. nor Councell , but old custome ; as also the appropriating of the name [ Bishop ] to the chiefe Ministers , wherein the custome of the Church , no Tradition or Councell generally preuayled : to this rule , I say , that it cracks the very crowne of the popish church , for nothing not conteined in the scriptures could be vniuersally obserued , but eyther Traditions from the Apostles , or else the Decrees of plenarie Councels : it is cleere , that the Popes vniuersall power is shutte out of doores ; and therefore to requite [ the intricate Dilemma ] he talkes of , let me reason thus with your Papist . The Pope either hath power to impose decrees and constitutions vpon the vniuersall Church of Christ , or else he hath not ; if hee haue , then [ Austines rule ] is crooked and may deceiue vs ; if he haue not , then the Popes vniuersall shephardship ouer the whole Church , is come to nothing .

Howbeit , I beseech you , marke further how hee hudleth vp contraries , and so marreth the fashion of his owne rule , for if all things obserued vniuersally must be [ followed and imbraced ] as Traditions from the Apostles , if they bee not contained eyther in scriptures or Councels : then no man may presume vpon any [ alteration of states and times ] to abolish them , if they may [ abolish ] them , and [ alter ] them , then are they not [ bound to follow & imbrace them : ] adde hereunto , that as [ the Apostles successors ] as hee saith , might and haue alteted and abolished apostolicall Traditions [ generally practised in the vniuersall Church ] so I would see some reason , why they may not stil vpon the like [ alteration ] of circumstances [ abolish more of them ; and so it will follow that [ all the doctrine of the Catholicks not found in scripture ] hangs vpon circumstances , and may if it please [ the Apostles successors ] be quite [ abolished , ] hath he not spun a faire threed , thinke you , that thus indangereth his owne religion ? yet he croweth lowd , after all this fond feather-fluttering , that all is as cleare as the Sunne ; yet neuer durst any Catholicke father or church , one or other , set downe this remnant of Traditions , and vnite it to the body of the canonicall Scripture , which infallibly demonstrateth that all is not [ as cleare as the Sunne , ] and it is further to bee obserued , how hee is faine to clowt out Saint Austines rule with a new patch which marres all ; for when he saw that vniuersall practise is not enough to proue a Tradition apostolicall , vnlesse it be traced still downeward from the Apostles to our dayes ; Are kept he is not content with ( Custodiuntur ) which he findes in Austine , but addeth , [ haue bin vniuersally practised from age to age , and from Bishop to Bishop , which no man aliue is possibly able to make good in any one vnwritten Tradition , popish or catholicke , vnlesse the Church had continually appointed in euery age , such an one as Sir Francis Drake , that should trauell all the worlde ouer from Bishop to Bishop , to know and certifie the state of al Churches , and yet that policy could not worke faith further then the credite of the man , which is a poore stay for a christian conscience .

Verily the credite of men is but a sandye foundation to build vpon in matters not written ; seeing your Papist was so fouly ouerseene in [ the community of all things ] a matter written in great letters , and so determined in the worde of God , that all open eyes may see and perceiue that it was neuer vniuersally practised : and whereas it pleaseth him to talke of weedes and bastard plants , that they could not [ still remaine without checke or contradiction , I am sure he hath read in Matthew , Sap. 13.25 . that while men slept , the enuious man sewd tares among the wheat , and that both should grow together vntill haruest , and therefore no maruell though the mystery of iniquitie grew on stil by little and little by reason , of mens sleepines , and wrought closely , without any effectuall contradiction , otherwise it had not beene a mystery ; yet notwithstanding , when once it was growne so out of fashion , that men saw how vgly and mishapen it was , 2. Thes. 2.7.8 then the spirite of the Lords mouth began to consume it , and when haruest is come it shall be abolished , neither is it maruell that Councels and catholicke Doctors slept , while the tares of Anti-christian Religion were a sowing , and so ignorantly gaue their helping hand to the inthronizing of the man of sinne , Apoc. 2.13 . &c. for the Angell of Pergamus was a faithfull seruant of God , yet Satan had erected himselfe a throne in his Church to teach the doctrine of Baalam , Apo. 2.19 . &c. and the Nicholaitans which God hated ; the like may be sayd of that worthy Angell of Thyatira of whom God gaue testimonie that hee knewe his loue , seruice , faith , patience , and workes to be more at the last , than at the first , yet hee suffered the woman Iezabel to deceiue the seruants of God .

The Dialogue . Sectio . V.

PAp . Now let vs returne from whence we haue digressed , that is to say , vnto the searching of the second mortall wound , which ( as I haue sayd ) you haue giuen vnto your owne cause by a a How prooue you that wee haue excluded them ? excluding out of your Church all the ancient Catholick Fathers and Doctors : for admit that you could ( by expounding & wresting of scriptures ) intrude your selfe into such a Church as holdeth no Doctrine , but such as is warranted by the canonicall Scriptures ; b b Nonsequitur . yet must you leaue out of the same Church , as Heretickes and Scismatickes , all the ancient Fathers and Bishops of the Latine and Greeke Churches , neither are you c c you measure vs by your selues . able to name any time or place where or when your Church was extant , or any one Bishop or principall member thereof . Pro. What points of Doctrine are they which the antiquitie did hold without warrant of scripture ? & what ancient Fathers , Doctors , & Bishops were they that held such doctrine ? Pap. In a word , they were all Papists , which being prooued , you will not denie the consequent ; d d All the Fathers held not these points , and some of these points were bastards , and haue no knowne Fathers . they held prayer for the dead , purgatorie , transubstantiation , they offered a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead , they prayed to Saints , held also vowes of chastitie , the vnlawfulnesse of Priests marriage , and the descention of Christs soule into Hell , call you not this Papistry ? I am sure you had rather be in your Church alone , than to be troubled with such papisticall Companions : now shall you heare e e All this hath nothing in it , but facing . the opinion of euerie Doctor deliuered by his owne penne in such plaine words , as you shall not be able by any glosse or distinction to peruert , but must néedes confesse that they were all out of your new Church . I will begin with prayer for the dead , and so goe on in order .

The Answere .

THe second wound , is come at length to the searching , namely , that all the ancient Fathers and Bishops , must bee excluded as heretickes , and scismatickes out of our Church , and why so ? Marry because they held certaine points of Doctrine not warranted by the canonicall Scriptures , is not this a deepe wound thinke ye ? wee say indeed , that no other doctrine ought to bee curtant in the Church , but such as hath the image and superscription of the Canonicall Scriptures : but doe you therefore say , that all such as haue beene carried beyond those limits , through ignorance or infirmitie , Cyprian . lib. 2. Epist. 3. are to be put out for wranglers ? Si quis de antecessoribus nostris vel ignoranter , vel simpliciter non hoc obseruauit & tenuit , quod nos dominus facere exemplo & magisterio suo docuit , potest simplicitati eius de indulgentia domini venia concedi , nobis vero non poterit ignosci , qui nunc à domino admoniti & instructi sumus , If any of our Predecessors , either of ignorance or simplicity , did not obserue and keepe this which the Lord by his example and commandement hath taught , the Lord of his mercie may pardon his simplicitie ; but wee after wee haue beene admonished and instructed so of the Lord , may looke for no pardon . Thus sayd Cyprian of the Aquarians that were before him , and so say we of the ancient Fathers , that haue added the timber , hay , and stubble of traditions , to the gold , siluer , and precious stones of Scripture ; howbeit , see ( I pray you ) how your Papist hanges the principall pillars of his Religion vpon tradition , and all to wring out the Fathers out of our Church . The Fathers were all Papists , and held prayer for the dead , purgatorie , transubstantiation , Sacrifice for quicke and dead , prayer to dead Saints , vowes of chastitie , the single life of Priests , and the descention of Christs soule into hell ; all these trim points of learning , you shall heare now so prooued by tradition , out of euerie Doctor , as you must confesse to bee super excellent , yet take heed you do not expound these words euerie Doctor heretically , after the imagination of your owne braine ; for I dare assure you , he neuer saw the couers of euerie Doctor ; and therefore you may not vnderstand them simply , as they sound , but charitably , for so many as haue writings extant , and could be intreated of this suddain to speake an ambiguous word or two in these matters .

The Dialogue . Sectio VI. Prayer for the dead .

EPiphanius lib. 3. To. primo . Cap. 75. It appeareth there , that the Hereticke Aerius was of your opinion a a And of yours too , for you dare not pray for the release of incurable sinnes , as the Church then did , looke bet-vpon Epiphanius . concerning Prayer for the dead , and concerning the feast of Easter , and the equalitie of Ministers , he was a flat Puritane . For he held , that there was no difference betwéen a Priest and a Bishop , he vsed the b b Then were they good arguments . verie same arguments , for the maintenance of his Heresie , that the Protestants & Puritanes of this time do : for confutation whereof , this ancient Father vseth none other c c His confutation is so much the worse . argument but the Tradition and continuall practise of the Church . I am sure although you doe d d Who told you so ? exclude out of your Church Epiphanius , and all other ancient Fathers : yet Aerius shall be receiued and entertained as an ancient and principall pillar thereof : but be ye well aduised before you put him into your Kalender , for he was also an e e That s not so soone prooued , for Austine followed Epiphanius the first and onely author of it . Arian hereticke , as Saint Augustine recordeth ; but whatsoeuer he holdeth else , it sufficeth if he iumpe with you in any thing against the Catholicke .

The Answere .

HEere comes in Epiphanius and the hereticke Aerius once againe to walke a turne or two vpon the stage : howbeit , it may well be doubted by what authoritie Aerius was dubbed an hereticke ; I am sure , Mich. Medina a stout Papist saith , De Sacr. homi . orig. & conti . lib. 1. cap. 5. that Ierom , Ambrose , Austine , Sedutius , Primasius , Chrysostome , Theodoret , Aecumenius and Theophilact , were of his opinion in the equalitie of ministers ; Againe Aerius was enemy to Eustathius an Arian , and therfore if he had any desire to remooue him out of his Bishopricke , Haeres. 75. and to sit himselfe in his roome , as Epiphanius reporteth , there is no likelihood that hee would be an Arian himselfe , but keepe himselfe cleere to accuse and condemne Eustathius of so capitall an heresie ; Againe the opinion of fasting vpon Sunday , and condemning ordinary and set fasting dayes , Lib. 2. cap. 33. is attributed to Eustathius in Socrates storie , where wee read also that hee was twise condemned , once in the councell of Caesarea Cappadociae by his owne father Eueanius , and againe the second time in the Councell of Gangra in Paph agonia : wherefore I perswade my selfe that Epiphanius mistooke iust reprehension for emulation , and charged Aerius with the faults of Eustathius a double condemned hereticke , and as very a Papist , as euer Aerius was [ a Puritane , ] Nuptias fieri prohibuit , à cibis abstinendum docuit , nonnullos qui nuptias contraxerant à connubio segregauit , seruos simulatione pietatis dominis abstraxit , benedictionem & communionem presbyteri habentis vxorem tanquam scelus declinandum praecepit &c. He forbad marriage , taught to abstaine from meates , some that had bene married he separated , he drew seruants from their masters vnder colour of pietie , he commanded to shunne that blessing and communion of an Elder that had a wife of an hainous wickednesse . Call you not this papistrie ? call it what you will , I am sure it is so , and it is heresie too : Concil. Gangr . by your leaue if a nathemasit pronounced by a lawfull Councell be sufficient to make an heresie ; shew me the like euidence against Aerius , and I will confesse him to be an hereticke , otherwise I must craue leaue to say of Epiphanius , as Austine doth of Philastrius , In praesat . libri de haeres , ad quod . Multas assertiones inter haereses numerauit , quae haereses non sunt , Many assertions he counted for heresies , which were not heresies . Nay , I will be bold to say further , Multas assertiones haereses non numerauit , quae haereses sunt ; Many assertions he counted not heresies , which are heresies . For he hath wittingly concealed the assertions of Eustathius , 1. Tim. 4.1.3 . which Paul cals [ doctrines of deuils . ]

Now to the Tradition which Epiphanius bringeth for praier for the dead , I say in a word , it is accepta à patribus , i i Receiued from the Fathers , not from the Apostles . not [ ab Apostolis ] and therefore it hath no further credit then man can giue it ; yet notwithstanding prayer was then made , not after the Popish fashion , to ease the dead of the paines and torments of purgatorie but to perswade the liuing that they are not vanished into nothing , but liue and haue their being with the Lord , which knockes out the braines of purgatorie , for if men ought to beleeue that the dead for whom prayer is made , doe viuere apud dominum ; Epiph. ibidem haeres. 75. then may we not thinke that they doe viuere apud inferos in purgatorie , but Epiphanius helps you with better store of reasons ; you heard the first , namely , quod credant mortuos esse & viuere apud dominum , That they beleeue that the dead are aliue with the Lord . The second , Quod spes sit orantibus profratribus , velut qui in peregrinatione sint , That there is hope to them which pray for their brethren , as to them which want in trauailing . The third , Quo id quod perfectius est significetur , To the end , that which is more perfect , may be signified . The fourth , Vt Dominum Iesum Christum ab hominum ordine separent , that they may separate the Lord Iesus from the order and state of bare men . The fifth , Vt adorationem domino praestent , That they may yeeld adoration to the Lord . The sixt and last he sets downe in the words wee haue in hand , Ecclesia hoc perficit traditione à patribus accepta , The Church doth this by tradition receiued from the fathers . Howbeit , the fathers tradition was no more but [ memoriam facite , ] keepe a memory . Lib. 1. epist. 9. et lib. 3. epist. 3. As we may see euidently in Cyprian , whereunto was added by further curiositie , Misericordiam Dei implorate , Begge mercy of God . And at length , Masses and Indulgences , and oblations , and satisfactions : and a whole flood of pickepurse inuentions ; yea but , may it be said , memoriam facite , is little worth without misericordiam implorate : yes , by your leaue , for so the Church thought good to animate and incourage the liuing to stand constant in persecution , and not to reuolt for feare from Christian profession , and touching the crauing of mercy for sinners departed , which the Church vsed to doe , most were in Epiphanius time , you heard before all the reasons that Epiphanius could yeeld , and if you looke for more , or better , you must search else where , for Epiphanius cannot helpe you , but hurt you : for when he saith , preces prosunt , etsi totam culpam non abscindant , prayers profit , though they cut not off the whole fault . He marres the fashion of purgatory , where sinnes are not forgiuen but punished : to be short , if you peruse the words of Aerius , you shall soone find that he neuer heard of purgatorian doctrine , for when he obiecteth that if prayer profite the dead , men need not liue godly , or doe any good thing in their life time : but purchase friends to pray , that their incurable sinnes may bee layd to their charge , it is most cleere hee knew not that prayer is not auaileable , where there is no former merite ; and that veniall , not mortall or incurable sinnes , are purged by the suffrages of the liuing .

The Dialogue . Sectio VII .

SAint Austine . Pompous funerals , great troups of mourners , sumptuous monuments , these doe bring some confort , such as it is vnto the liuing , but they are not auaileable vnto the dead : but we ought a a What is it that puts the matter out of doubt ? let that be shewed , and we will doubt no longer . not to doubt but that the dead are relieued by the prayers of the holy Church , by the holesome sacrifice , and by almes which are giuen , that it might please our Lord to deale more mercifully with them , than their sinnes haue deserued . This custome the vniuersall Church doth obserue ( being deliuered by Tradition a a Austine saith , a patribus , not , ab Apostolis . from the Apostles ) that , whereas at the time of the sacrifice , commemoration is made of b b All communicants , and onely communicants are prayed for , is this catholicke doctrine think you ? all soules departed in the communion of the body and blood of Christ , they should be prayed for , and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them , de verb. Apost. sermon . 32. We ought c c Nor wee ought not to say it , vnlesse we could proue it . not to deny that the soules of the dead are relieued , by the deuotion of their liuing friends , when as eyther the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them , or almes giuen in the Church . Enchir. ad Laurent . prope fin . When the Martyrs are mentioned at the altar of God , they are not prayed for : but d d What all ? confessors , bishops , popes and all ? all other which are dead , which are there remembred , are prayed for , de verb. Apostol. serm . 17. When the sacrifice , whether it bee of the altar , or of almes déedes , is offered for such as are dead e e Why not before as well as after ? you may as well offer for the vnbaptized , as for those that be valdé mali . after Baptisme , for those that be very good , they be thanksgiuing ; for those which be not very euil , they be propitiatory ; for those which be very euill , although they profit not the dead , yet are they some comfort vnto the liuing , Dulcitij question . quest . 2. Reade his epistle ad Aurelium Episcopum , and his Treatise de cura pro mortuis . This was ( no doubt ) S. Austines f f Or else you know not what faith is . faith , which he wrote , taught , and practised in his church , and which was at that time generally receiued in the Latine Churches .

The Answere .

AVstine belike is plentifull in this question , for we haue here foure seuerall places out of his workes , which we will briefely runne ouer as they come : In the first Austine is forced to turne his tale , for whereas before where this place was alledged for Tradition ; prayer for the dead , was no more but a Tradition of the fathers : here Austine is intreated to say , that it was deliuered by Tradition from the Apostles ; me thinks your Papist should know that our writers alleage this verie place of Austine , to shew that this manner of praying was receiued of the Church long after the Apostles time , Decad. 4. serm. 10. as for example Bullinger in his Decades , Illud dissimulare non possum , saith he , id quod isti traditionem Apostolorum appellant , S. Augustinum nuncupare traditionem patrum ab ecclesia receptam , nam sermone de verbis Apostoli 32. hoc à patribus ( inquit ) traditum vniuersa obseruat ecclesia , &c. This I cannot hide , that that which they call a traditon of the Apostles , Quest. 1. Augustine calleth a tradition of the Fathers receiued by the Church , see Serm. de verbis Apostoli . 32. This ( saith he ) being deliuered by the Fathers doth the whole Church obserue . And a litle after concludeth , His significantius innuere videtur hunc ritum orandi pro defunctis , haud dubie post longa internalla à temporibus Apostolorum ab ecclesia receptum esse , By these words he seemeth more throughly to insinuate , that this custome of praying for the dead , was without all doubt receiued by the Church a long space after the Apostles times . Wherefore this budgening and setting downe quid , pro quo , in so materiall a testimonie , argueth a peruerse resolution , rather to quench the fire of truth , than the stubble and straw of our errours should be consumed . But for answere , I say , that Austine himselfe doubted of that which here he saith we ought not to doubt of ; thus he writes in the questions of Dulcitius , Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur , siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur , non abhorret , quantùm arbitror à ratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae , Whether men suffer these things onely in this life , or whether after this life , some such iudgements follow , this vnderstanding of this sentence , is not without some shew of truth as I suppose . Also in his Bookes De Ciuitate Dei , Lib. 21. cap. 26 Siue ibi tantum , siue hic & ibi , siue ideo hic vt non ibi , saecularia , quamuis à damnatione venialia , concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant non redarguo , quia forsitan verum est , Whether thinges committed in this world , though veniall in respect of damnation , doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely , or here and there , or therfore here , because not there ; I seek not to conuince , because perhaps it is true ; and in his Enchiridion , Cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri , incredibile non est , & vtrum ita sit , quaeri potest , That some such thing is done after this life , it is not incredible ; and whether it bee so done , it is a question . Now then if Austine himselfe doubted whether men be punished transitorily after this life : I knowe your Papist wil giue vs leaue to doubt , whether the dead be releeued by our prayers .

Moreouer , it is here likewise to be obserued , that no soule were praied or offered for , or thought worthy to be remembred at the Altar , but such as departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ , Lib. 1. Contr. Iulian. & lib. 1 de peccat . merit . & remiss . Concil. 6. cap. 83. & Carth. Con. 3. cap. 6. which includeth a generall beleefe of those times , that none but Communicants could be saued ; and therefore Austine vrgeth it as hotly , as any other tradition , that the Eucharist , as well as Baptisme , was necessary to the saluation of all , euen of new borne babes , wherof it commeth , that the bread & wine was then thrust into the mouthes of Infants , and dead carkasses , both in the Greeke and Latine Churches . Forasmuch then as this place of Austine , teacheth two points of generall doctrine , one that prayers , Sacrifices , and almes doe profite the dead ; the other , that none can bee saued but Communicants , and so prayers , and sacrifices , and doles to bee made for no other : we thinke our selues no more bound to receiue the one at Austines hand , than Papists thinke themselues bound to receiue the other .

Furthermore , these Offices of the liuing are here sayd to procure greater mercie at Gods hands , than the sinnes of the dead haue deserued ; where obserue , that the sway of the time so carried both Paulinus and Austine , two worthy renowned Bishops , that the one would not yeeld though he could not tell how to answere Saint Pauls authoritie ; 2. Cor. 5.10 . Cap. 7. par. 3. and the other sheltered himselfe , as Denys doth in his Hierarchy vnder a short heeld answere that s readie to fall backward if you do but look vpon it ; Paul saith , We must receiue euery man according to that he hath done in the bodie , either good , or euill : Here Paulinus is at his wits end , and cannot tell how this can agree with prayers , sacrifices , almes , and the Patronage of dead Martyrs , and such like humane inuentions , and yet he stickes in the mire still , and desires Austine to help him out : see now how Austine answeareth , Meritum , per quod ista profint , si nullum comparatum est in hac vita , frustra quaeritur post hanc vitam , If there be no merit , by which these things may doe good , Libr. de cura pro mortu . Cap. 1. gotten in this life , it is in vaine to seek it after this life . And a little after , Vt hoc quod impenditur possit ei prodesse post corpus , in ea vita acquisitum est quam gessit in corpore ; That this which is bestowed may profit him after the bodie , it is purchased in this life which hee liued in the bodie . But what merite is this hee talkes of ? doth it respect God or man ? if man , then man must reward it ; if God , why the Apostle assureth vs by Commission from God , 2. Cor. 5.10 . that we shall receiue good , according to that good we haue done in the flesh ; and therfore all such praiers & sacrifices are superfluous : again the praiers & sacrifices of the liuing , depending vpon our former merits , must needs procure either lesse , or the same , or more mercy than wee haue merited in our life time ; if lesse , then they hinder vs ; if the same , then do they not further vs ; if more , then doe we not receiue according to the good that we haue done in the body , as Paul saith , but according to the praiers & sacrifices of our friends . Here your Papist hath a Dilemma , & a Trilemma too to worke vpon , if he can do any thing , Austine & Paulinus shall be beholding to him ; if nothing , them Paul the Apostle must haue the victory .

In the mean time the verie same Dilemma and Trilemma too must repell the force of the next place cited out of Austines Enchiridion , Cap. 100. for there Austine addeth immediatly , Sed eis hac prosunt , qui cum viuerent , vt haec sibi postea prodesse possent , meruerunt , But these things profit them , who when they liued , deserued that they might profit them afterward . Wherfore Austine vsing the same shift to rid his hands of Saint Pauls authority . Vid. Lumb . Eb. 4. distinct . 45. D. I must vse the same answere to defend it ; if two men of equall merite be inequally rewarded , because prayers and sacrifices are offered for the one , and not for the other , then euerie man receiueth not according to that himselfe hath done in the flesh , but according to that other men doe for him , when he is out of the flesh . Howbeit , this second place of Austine speakes not of prayers , but sacrifices and almes giuen in the Church , which belongeth to the fourth point of doctrine , to wit , sacrifice for the quicke and dead ; if your Papist thinke that sacrifice and prayers goe together , let him take heed hee bee not deceiued , for Cyprian speaking of Laurentius and Ignatius Martyrs , saith thus , Lib. 4. Epist. 5. de verb. Apo. serm. 17. & in Ioh. tract. 84. Sacrificia pro eis semper , vt meministis , offerimus ; We alwayes as you know , offer sacrifices for them . Yet Austine saith , that Martyrs [ are not prayed for , ] and that it is iniurious to pray for them , but because hee dispatcheth two of his points at once , let this place and some other of Cyprian , strike some stroke in this question of Sacrifice , wee offer Sacrifices for Martyrs , saith he , Quoties Martyrum passiones & dies anniuersaria commemoratione celebramus , As often as wee celebrate the sufferings & dayes of the Martyrs , with a yeerely remembrance . And this sacrificing pro Martyribus , Austine himselfe confesseth to be nothing else but praise & thankesgiuing , and so hee celebrated the day of Cyprians Martyrdome ; yea , but though Martyrs bee not prayed for , Serm. de Cyp. Mart. in oper. Cypr. when they are remembred at the Altar ; yet all other which are there mentioned , are prayed for , saith Austine in the third place : and in the last place , sacrifices ( saith he ) for those that be Valdè boni , verie good , be thankesgiuing ; but for those that be not Valde mali , Verie euill , they bee propitiatorie . I see what Saint Austine saith , yet all other beside Martyrs stood not in need of releefe , as namely , the Patriarckes , the Prophets , the Apostles , the Euangelists , the Confessors , the Bishops , the Anachorits , and our most holy , vnspotted , most blessed Ladie , Gods Mother the Virgine Marie : All these , I trowe , were not Martyrs , yet were they all prayed for in the lyturgies of Basile , Chrysostome , and Epiphanius not to releeue them , but to glorifie God in his seruants , and to profite the Church by commemoration of their vertues ; it cannot be denied , but God blessed his Church continually with many such as were Valde boni beside Martyrs , and therfore either prayers and Sacrifices go not alwayes one way , or els some of these places of Austine must needs fall .

Howbeit , to returne to Saint Cyprian , we read that it was decreed by his predecessors , that if any brother at his death should leaue the execution of his will to any of the Clergie , he should not be offered nor sacrificed for ; now followeth the approbation and practise of this decree , in in these words , Cum victor frater noster de saeculo excedens contra formam nuper in concilio à sacerdotibus datam , Libr. 1. epist. 9. Gemintum Faustinum praesbyterum ausus sit actorem constituere : non est quo pro dormitione eius apud vos fiat oblatio aut de precatio aliqua nomine eius in ecclesia frequentetur , vt sacerdotum decretum religiosè & necessariè factum seruetur &c. Seeing victor our brother departing out of this world , durst contrary to the order taken of late by the Priests in the Councell , appoint Geminius Faustinus a Priest his executor ; there is no reason why you should make any offering for his decease , or that the Church should meete to deprecation for his sake , that the religious and necessarie ordinance of the Priests may be obserued . Thus farre Cyprian , out of which I gather , that if these offerings and sacrifices and deprecations had bin made for refrigeration of soules departed : then Cyprian and his Collegues and predecessors that made and executed this law , had bene most vnmercifull and most cruell and sauage tyrants , that wrote their decrees with the blood of soules ; and so we read in one of the Sermons Ad fratres in Heremo clamant quotidiè defuncti qui iacent in tormentis , Serm. 44. clamant , & pauci sunt qui respondeant , vlulant , & non est qui consoletureos , ô quàm grandis crudelitas , fratres mei , ô quàm grandis inhumanitas , clamant ad nos quotidiè , nec eis subuenire curamus , ô verè magna inhumanitas , The dead that lie in torments cry dayly , they cry , and few there are that answere ; they howle and there is none to comfort them ; oh how great cruelty is this my brethren ? oh how great inhumanitie ? they cry to vs dayly , and we haue no care to helpe them , or verily great inhumanitie . Farre was this inhumanitie from Cyprian , and the other good bishops of Africke ; and therefore farre were they from beleeuing , that praying and sacrificing did either helpe or hurt their dead brethren .

Moreouer , Lib. 4. epist. 5. we must vnderstand that the commemoration of the dead was celebrated but once a yeere , so saith Cyprian of the Martyrs , and so saith Tertullian of them that were no Martyrs , neither is it like that the memory of any Christian had moe dayes bequeathed vnto it , Lib. decor . milit. then the memory of a Martyr : now I beseech you , consider what humanitie or charitie this was , to releeue our brethren that were broiled and scorched in extreame torments , but once a yeere , and to leaue them to their clamant quotidiè all the yeere after ? may not a purgatory-monger cry out here to , ô quàm grandis crudelitas , ô verè magna inhumanitas ? Verely I must thinke so till I be better informed ; and this is yet further strengthened , in that these anniuersary dayes were celebrated festiually cum ingenti letitia , with great ioy : for had they beleeued that the soules of the brethren rested not blessedly from their labours , as the spirit saith , Apoc. 14.13 . but were tormented miserably in purgatory , as your Papist saith ; verely these dayes had bene dayes of fasting and mourning , not dayes of feasting and reioycing , I could obserue further that oblatio , or deprecatio , or facrificium pro dormitione , importeth not releeuing of soules , but a thankefull remembrance to God for the quiet and Christian departure of our brother , with a commemoration thereof to the profit and comfort of the liuing , but this that hath bene sayd , is sufficient to shew the innocencie of Cyprians riches from these popish abuses .

Now let vs consider a little before of Austines fourth place , for the third is sensibly false , confuted , as you heard , in the old Liturgies , & by Austine himselfe in the first place , where he saith , that wee should pray for all communicated soules ; and in the last two , where he saith , that sacrifice is offered , Pro baptizatis defunctis omnibus , Cap. cum Marthae . For all deceased after baptisme , for [ all that are dead after baptisme . ] Now then touching the distinction of soules , which this last place doth afford vs , it is found long agoe to want a legge , and so to bee lame and imperfect : for Pope Innocent the third will needes haue it goe vpon foure legges ; namely , a very good one , a very bad one ; an indifferent good one , and an indifferent bad one , and Austine himselfe graunts as much in his bookes De Ciuitate Dei , Lib. 21. ca. 24. cap. 110. Lib. 4. dist. 40. and in his Enchiridion , as the master of Sentences hath cited him ; so by this reckoning we must find out another purgatorie , for indifferent good soules : for seeing suffrages auaile them ad expiationem , to expiation , as Innocentius saith ; or as Lumbard mends the matter , ad plenam absolutionem , to full absolution ; they must haue a new purgatorie needs , for the old will receiue none but such as haue filth to purge , and are stayed by some inquinament or other from entring into heauen , and Austine tels vs that all good soules departed , haue ioy ; and all euill soules torments . In Ioh. tract. 49. I doubt your papist will be fowly troubled before he shew vs what ioy soules haue in purgatory : and here obserue further , that the soules which papists send to purgatorie , though they be not valdè malae , yet they bee malae in Austines opinion , whereof it followeth that at the generall resurrection , their torments wil be more grieuous , Habent omnes animae , cum de saeculo exierint , diuersas receptiones suas , habent gaudium boni , mali tormenta , sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio , & bonorum gaudium amplius erit , & malorum tormenta grauiora quando cum corpore torquebuntur . All soules after they goe out of the world , haue diuers rewards , the good haue ioy , & the bad torments , but when the resurection shal come the ioy of the good shall be greater ; and the torments of the bad more grieuous when they shall be tormented in their bodies . This wil hardly agree with the popish purgatorie , which is said to be the high way to heauen , not to hell ; againe , it being graunted that non valdè malae , be malae ; not very euill , be euill . Notwithstanding it will follow likewise , that they must continue euill still , and so neuer become good , that so they may flit from purgatory to heauen , for there the tree must lie , saith the wise man , where it falleth : Eccles. 11.3 . Serm. 49. ex paruis . which place Ierome expoundeth of the immutabilitie of the soule after this life , either in good or euill ; and so doth Barnard in one of his Sermons , but admit the soule may be changed , and be made a good soule , of an euil soule : now consider what it is that workes this change , whether our suffrages , or the fire of purgatory ; suffrages worke no more than we haue merited in our life time , as we haue seene before , hauing merits in our life time , we haue our quietus est in our life time , and so purgatory and suffrages are both discharged : as for the fire of purgatorie , Bellar. depurg . lib. 2. cap. 6. it is the same with the fire of hell , Theologi ferè omnes docent eodem igne torqueri damnatos & animas purgatorij . Now if this fire haue power in purgatory so to burne away sinne , that it purifieth an euill soule , and changeth it from euill to good ; it would bee knowen why the same fire in hell doth not change soules from valde malae , to non valde malae by the like consumption of sinne , and so bring them on from hell to purgatory , and from thence to heauen : if it be said that purgatory fire takes away sinne , not by way of purification , but by way of satisfaction , though this blasphemie be sufficiently confuted by the Prophet Esay , Cap. 53.5 . who assureth vs that the chasticement of our peace fell vpon Christ , and that we are heated by his stripes : yet forasmuch ar mortall sinne , in his owne nature is not infinitely more punishable than veniall : it wil follow , that if hell fire satisfie the iustice of God in the one , it will also in proportionall time satisfie in the other , which is not a coits cast from the heresie of the Chiliasts .

Obserue yet further that Austine here seemes contented that the pearle of the body and blood of Christ should bee layd to pawne for very euill soules , euen the cursed enemies of God , and laboureth to excuse it when he hath done ; such sacrificing , saith he , is some comfort to the liuing , as if it were lawfull to pleasure the affections of men , with the prostitution of the mysteries of God , & where he saith elswhere , Lib. de Cura pro mort . cap. 18. Harding Artic. 19. oportet , we must offer for all , quia non discernimus , because we cannot seuer the good from the bad : I answere , that his quia doth not make good his oportet , for the Sacrifice consisting of dead elements , cannot apply it selfe without prayer , and by prayer we may easily discard euill and cursed soules , and so apply this pretended plaster to such sores onely as may be cured .

There is yet one excuse more behind , where he tels vs , that it is better our sacrifices should bee offered for such as can haue no benefite by them , Lib. de Cura pro mort . cap. vlt. quám vt desint ijs qui egent , sicut benefacimus iniustis in hoc mundo , ne praetereantur iusti , then that they which haue need should want , as wee doe good to the vnrighteous in the world , least the righteous should not be regared . This excuse were something worth , if sacrificare pro valdè malis were commanded , as benefacere iniustis is ; but sacrificing for damned soules , being simply euill , we must learne of Paul , Rom. 3.8 . not to do euill , that good may come of it .

Howbeit these two last excuses teach vs , that we cannot helpe Purgatory vnlesse we pray for Hell ; we must offer for the vniust that be in hell , or els the iust that be in purgatory must be pretermitted , and this is done for both , nay , for all , tagge and ragge , with all indifferency of words and deeds , in one vniforme generalitie of prayer , otherwise the liuing , seeing their dead in any one point neglected , cannot conceaue comfort , but griefe and discouragement ; now , I beseech you , consider how this generall oblation can possibly be so parted among dead soules , that for some it is eucharisticall , for other some propitiatory , and for some a meere nullitie : but what speake I of parting ? it must be all eucharisticall for those that be valdè boni ; it must be all propitiatory for those that be non valdè mali ; and for all other , either consolatory to the liuing , or nullatory to the damned , is this possible thinke you ? we cannot offer for Martyrs and Martyrs fellowes , without agimus tibi gratias ; wee cannot offer for Purgatorians without prasta quaesumus , and howe both these can bee confounded in one applicatory prayer , as it were ale and beere in one pot to serue all turnes at once ; it is farre beyond the reach of my wit to conceiue .

Besides this , there remaineth yet another inconuenience , in that Austine holds the sacrifice of almes at as high a price , in this office of relieuing soules , as the sacrifice of the altar , and so the qualitie of his speech seemeth to import ; for when Paul saith , Ephes. 6.8 . Vnusquisque quod fecerit boni , hoc recipiet a Domino siue seruus , siue liber , What good thing soeuer a man doth , that shal he receiue of the Lord , whether he be bond , or free : He giueth vs to vnderstand , that in respect of the Lords rewarding of vertue , bond and free are of equall regard . And therefore when Austine saith , Sacrificia pro defunctis propitiationes sunt , siue altaris , siue quarumcunque eleemosinarum , Sacrifices for the dead bee propitious , whether they be of the altar , or of any almes whatsoeuer : his meaning is , that these two sacrifices , in respect of propitiating the dead , are of equall estimation . I doubt whether your Papist will allow this for currant diuinitie , that in any work of our redemption , corruptible things , 1. Pet. 1.18.19 as siluer and gold giuen in almes , should be aequallized to the precious blood of Christ , which he dreames to be really present in the Sacrament : and if it should happen that this absurditie will not stoppe his course ; yet when Chrysostome yeeldeth greater power to the sacrifice of Almes , than to the sacrifice of the Altar , I trow he will stoppe there , if he be not desperate , looke his Sermons vpon the Philippians , Serm. 3. and there you shal find that such as died without Baptisme , called Catechumeni , finding no helpe in the prayers and other sacrifices of the Church , were notwithstanding somewhat relieued by almes giuing in their names to the poore , Omni huiusmodi destituti sunt auxilio , saith he , vno quodam dempto , quonam illo ? pauperibus illorum nomine dare licet , vndeillis nonnihil refrigerij accedit ; they are destitute of euery such helpe , one onely excepted : and what is that ? men may giue somewhat to the poore for their sakes , wherby they receyue some refreshing : heerehence therefore we may safely gather , I thinke , that Austine and Chrysostomes sacrifice was not the same with the Sacrifice of the Masse , wherin a popish shaueling priest without all shame or feare of God , offereth the Sonne of God to his Father .

Concerning the Treatise , de cura pro mortuis agenda ; Instit. lib. 3. 5. 10. Caluin hath truely censured it in these words , Tot haetitationes continet , vt suo frigore meritò debeat stulti zeli calorem extinguere , &c. It conteineth so many doubts , that the coldnesse thereof , might iustly extinguish the heate of foolish zeale . And a little after , haec vna ect fultura quia inualuit consuetudo , &c. If that booke haue any better helpes then haesitations , and likelyhoods , and custome , let them be brought to light that we may see them ; if it haue no other , no reason the bare frozen authoritie of any man liuing or dead , hanging vpon vnchawed and vndigested coniectures , should keepe vs in prison .

Epist. 64. The Epistle to Aurelius , which we are likewise willed to read , hath this saying , Oblationes pro spiritibus dormientium , quas vere aliquid adiuuare credendum est , super ipsas memorias non fint sumptuosae , atque omnibus petentibus siue typho , & cum alacritate prebeantur , nequé vendantur , sed si quis proreligione aliquid pecuniae offerre voluerit , in praesenti pauperibus erogetur , ita nec deserere videbuntur memorias suorum , quod potest gignere non leuem cordis dolorem , & id celebrabitur in ecclesia quod piè honestequé celebratur . The offerings for the soules of the dead , which we must beleeue , doe indeed somewhat helpe , let them not be sumptuous ouer their memories , and let them be giuen to all that aske them without disdaine & cheerefully , & not sold : but if any man for religions sake wil offer any mony , let it be presently bestowed on the poore : so shall men not seeme to forsake the memories of their friends , which might be occasion of no small griefe of heart , and that which is celebrated in the Church , shall be godlily and honestly celebrated . It is not very easie to gesse what these oblations were , for the sacrament cannot be sumptuous , vnlesse we met some precious stone of great value in the Communion Cup , as Cleopatra did in a cup of Ippocras , other oblations cannot be sold , nor yet giuen to euery one that asketh them , if it be said that the sacrament might be called sumptuous , not in it selfe , but in regard of the pompe and costly braueries of funerals : it is easily seene , that Austine heere speakes not of funerals , but memorials ; which as they were sumptuous , so were they celebrated with feasting and ioy , not with mournefull calling vpon God for a gaole deliuerie , and therefore we may better vnderstand this same aliquid adiunare , somewhat to helpe ; of helping the liuing , who otherwise might conceiue sorrow of heart , or , of the inflaming of mens deuotion to zeale and feruencie of prayer , when they behold the representation of the death of Christ in the reuerend mysteries , then of offering Christ in sacrifice to God his father for the reliefe of the dead , Vero aliquid adiuuare credendum est , We might belieue that they doe indeed helpe somewhat , saith Augustine , but that euery one that celebrated the memory of his friend , should beleeue that his friends soule was in purgatorie , crauing yeerely reliefe at his hands ; that saith not Austine : it may be his friends soule was in heauen , it may be it was in hell ; it may be it was deliuered out of purgatorie the last yeere , or the yeere before , and therefore it may be that oblations could not helpe him , and so consequently that Austines [ credendum ] in this case , is no whit better then an [ ignorandum ] howbeit you may tell your papist that this place is not for his profite , for if his massing soule Priest may not sell his oblations and prayers , but giue them freely and cheerefully to all that aske : the poore man will hardly be able to keepe a Concubine ; Austine saw that veniale peccatum , veniall sinne , was like to prooue , venale , venall , or set to sale , and therefore he saith , prebeantur neque vendantur , let them be giuen , not sold . But now , no money , no masse , no penny no pater noster . Wherefore to conclude all in a word , if this had bene Austines faith , he would not haue taught it so loosely and vntowardlie , yet howsoeuer he teacheth it , as faith , or opinion , or custome , or what else soeuer ; the faith of one moderne sacrifice Sacrificatorians is of another Edition .

The Dialogue . Sectio . VIII .

SAint Ambrose who a a This Ambrose neuer saw S. Austine nor S. Austine him . conuerted Saint Austine to the faith , die likewise hold and practise the same doctrine : for thus he prayeth before the celebration of the diuine mysteries . Let the inuisible forme of the Holy Ghost descend to teach me thine vnworthie Priest , reuerently to handle so high a mysterie , that thou mayest mercifully receiue at my hands this sacrifice , to the helpe both of quicke and dead , Precatio prima praeparans ad b b The word Missa is not to be found in all Ambrose . missam .

The Answere .

BElike Ambrose and Austine must agree in all points , because the one conuerted the other , otherwise this tale of Austines conuersion is told out of season : but by your leaue if this counterfect prayer be construed after the Popish fashion , I doubt whether Austine will giue it allowance , Howbeit , supposing this Iacke Strawe to be the right Ambrose , I answere that he speakes not here of this mysterie , as it is a sacrament , putting vs in mind of God , for then the vertue of it could not depend vpon the worthinesse , the reuerent or irreuerent handling of the Priest , but as it is a sacrifice , putting God in mind of vs : now if Ambrose purposed to offer vp the very body and blood of the sonne of God in sacrifice to his father , the absurdity of receiuing it mercifully in regard of his reuerent handling remaineth still , for the reall body and blood of Christ had bene acceptable to God of it selfe without helpe of Ambroses holinesse : Contr. epist. Par. lib. 2. cap. 8. Austine could not abide that Parmenian should say that the Bishop is mediatour betweene God and the people , and auoucheth , that if Saint Iohn had taken so much vpon him : euery good faithfull Christian would haue taken him for Antichrist , rather then the Apostle of Christ , and therefore , if Ambrose had prayed that God would mercifully receiue the body and blood of his sonne at his hands , making himselfe mediatour betweene the sonne of God and his father , as Popish Priests venter to doe at this day in the Church of Rome ; I may well thinke Austine , notwithstanding his conuersion , would haue detested it . Lib. 4. part. 2. Cum sacerdos orauerit prohostia transubstantianda , eamque transubstantiatam patri obtulerit orat pro ipsius acceptatione When the Priest praieth for transubstantiating of the hoste , and doth offer it being transubstantiated to the father , he prayeth for the acceptation of it . Thus saith Durand : and the Priest in the Masse desireth God to looke Propitio ac sereno vultu , propitiously and cheerefully , vpon the body and blood of Christ his sonne , and to receiue the same , as once he receiued the sacrifice of Abel &c. This is a presumptuous and a desperate blasphemy , yet must we either make Ambrose guilty of it in this praier , or else see him discharged of transubstantiation , There is a full discourse in Irenaeus , where it is prooued out of the Scriptures , Lib. 4. cap. 34. that God euer accepted him that offered , better than the offering , and that no oblation is pleasing vnto God , when hee that offereth it doth not please him better , and therefore it is sayd in Genesis , Cap. 4.4.5 . that the Lord had respect vnto Abel and his offering , but vnto Cain and his offering he had no regard ; and if the offering of a wicked man were acceptable to God , it had bene out of season to charge that man to goe away from the Altar , to be reconciled with his brother , Matth. 5.23 . before he presume to offer his oblation , so long as a man choseth his owne wayes , and inwardly delighteth in abhominations ; Esa. 66.23 . &c. his killing of a bullocke is as if he slew a man ; his sacrificing a sheepe , as if he cut off a dogs necke ; his offering an oblation , as if he offered swines flesh ; and such a mans offering incense to God , is as if he blessed an idoll . It commeth to passe often among men , that the wicked is accepted for his gift , and so absolued because the iudge is either needy or couetous ; but God hath no neede of our sacrifices , he neither eats the flesh of Buls , nor drinkes the blood of Goats , Psal. 50.30 . he neither eats bread , nor drinkes wine , but lookes fauourably vpon him and his sacrifice , that hath an humble and contrite heart , and trembleth at his word , and therefore well concludeth that ancient Father , Igitur non sacrificia sanctificant hominem , non enim indiget sacrificio Deus , sed conscientia eius qui offert , sanctificat sacrificium pura existens , & praestat acceptare Deum quasi ab amico , Sacrifices therefore doe not sanctifie a man ; for God hath no need of sacrifice , but the conscience of him that offereth being , pure doth sanctifie the sacrifice , and causeth that God receiueth it as of his friend . I trow your Papist will looke about him , before hee presume to say that the purity of a Popish Priests conscience sanctifieth the sonne of God , and makes him to be accepted of his father , and so learne that this sacrifice which could not acceptably be receiued of God , vnlesse the holy Ghost did inuisibly teach Ambrose to handle it with due reuerence , was not the sacrifice of the Masse , but the Eucharisticall sacrifice of praise and thankesgiuing .

Yea but , may it bee said , how can praise and thankesgiuing helpe both the quicke and dead ? how , say you ? and how can the Masse do it ? I am sure , I can shew the one with more ease , then any man liuing can shew the other ; for it is easily vnderstood , that prayer is more deuout and feruent and forcible , when our soules are possessed of the graces of God offered in the Sacrament , as beeing then more inflamed with the loue of God , that hath not spared his owne Sonne , but gaue him ouer to death for our redemption , and we may well be said to helpe the dead , Apoc. 7.10 . & 6.10 . 1. Cor. 54. &c Luke 21.28 . Rom. 8.23 . Act. 3.19 . when we ioyne with them in praysing God , and in prayer to represse the rage of Tyrants , and speedy comming of the Lord Iesus to vanquish death , and to accomplish our redemption , and theirs in that day , which Peter calleth the day of refreshing : And that this , or some such thing as this , is the helpe of quicke and dead , In orat . de obit: Theod. In orat : de obit: Valent : which Ambrose meaneth , his owne practise wil euince it , for he reioyceth that Theodosius reigned with Christ , yet he prayeth God to graunt him optatam requiem , desired rest . So likewise of Valentinians soule he saith , that it was beautifull as the Moone , chosen as the Sunne , a blessed soule , that looked downe from aboue vpon vs that bee here beneath ; and that both Valentinian and Gratian his brother did inioy the pleasures of eternall life , yet thus he addeth immediatly in the same place , beati ambo , si quid meae orationes valebunt , nulla dies vos silentio praeteribit , nulla nox non donatos aliqua praecum mearum contextione transcurret , omnibus vos oblationibus frequentabo , Both are blessed ones , if my prayers can doe any thing , no day shall passe you ouer with silence , no night shall runne ouer , in which I wil not giue you some labor of my prayers , I will frequent you in or with all offeringes ; heere is a Masse of requiem , for Theodosius , and store of prayers and sacrifices for Gratian and Valentinian , yet because Ambrose conuerted Austine , and both held the same doctrine , thus must wee resolue , Sacrificia pro valdè bonis gratiarum actiones sunt , Sacrifices for those that be very good , are thankesgiuings , saith Augustine ; but Theodosius , Gratian and Valentinian were valdè boni , for their soules did shine as the morning starre , and had the fruition of eternall blisse in heauen , So Ambroses prayers and Sacrifices were not propitiatory , but eucharisticall , and if this resolution please not your Papist , then let him consider , that Austine in his Confessions prayeth thus for his mother , Promisisti misericordiam misericordibus , & credo iam feceris , quod te rogo , sed voluntaria oris mei approba Domine ; Thou hast promised mercie to the mercifull , and I beleeue thou hast done that already which I desire , yet approue o Lord the free-will offerings of my mouth : and let him conclude thereof , that Ambrose to shew his loue and affection , prayd voluntary for Theodosius , Gratian , and Valentinian , as Austine did for his mother Monica .

The Dialogue . Sectio IX .

SAint Chrysostome , it was not without cause ordained of the Apostles , that in the dreadfull Mysteries commemoration should be made of the dead , as a thing wherby much profite and aduantage doth redound vnto them , for when the whole congregation , & the priests do stand together , with their hands stretched forth toward heauen : how can we choose but entreat a a To do what ? to giue them rest ? then neuer pray more but once , if the Lord must needs be entreated by your prayer . our Lord for them by our prayers ? but this is to be vnderstood of those only which are departed in the faith . And againe in the same Homily , Why doest thou , after the death of thy friends , call together the poore ? Why doest thou beséech the priests to pray for them ? I know thou wilt answere , that they may attaine vnto rest : that they may finde the iudge fauourable . Tom. 4. ad populum homilia 69.

The Answere .

CHrysostome , though he might say , Voluntaeria oris mei approba domine , Approoue the free-will offerings of my mouth , as well as either Ambrose or Austine : yet hee thought himselfe bound to remember the dead , at the ministration of the dreadfull mysteries , euen by the Apostles ordinance , Austine neuer durst say any more of that order , but that it was traditum à patribus , deliuered by the Fathers , no more durst Epiphanius ; neither is it credible that either of them would hinder the credite of it , so much as to father it vpon the Fathers , if they had thought the Apostles had ordained it : Lib. 1. Epist. 9. we heard before that Cyprians Predecessors decreed , that if a Christian brother dying , should appoint a Clarke ouerseer of his goods , the sacrifice should not bee celebrated for him , which neither they would haue ventured to enact , nor Cyprian and the godly Bishops of his time to approoue and practise , if they had surmised the Apostles had decreed the contrarie . Againe , when Chrysostome demaundeth , how we can choose but intreat the Lord for the dead ? It may be demaunded of him againe , what he would obtaine for such as are departed in the faith , for hee dares pray for no other : if answere bee made , he desires they may attaine vnto rest ; he would be told that in fide abscedere , to depart in faith , and in fide requiescere , to rest in faith , are all one ; yet thus hee prayeth in his Liturgie , Offerimus tibi rationalem hunc cultum pro in fide requiescentibus , Wee offer thee this reasonable seruice , for those that rest in the faith ; And so desires rest for them that be in rest alreadie ; and indeed so it must be , not because Chrysostome prayeth so , but because the spirite of God saith so , Blessed are the dead that die in the Lord , Apoc. 14.13 . for they rest from their labours . This place is cleere ; yet Bellarmine hath scraped together two answeres , one out of Anselmus , who saith , that Saint Iohn speakes of the time , that followeth the last iudgement , which is absurd ; for then he would haue sayd 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 from thence-forth , not 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 from hence-forth ; his other answere out of Haimo and Richardus . De S. Victore , restraines the comfort of this heauenly voice to Martyrs and perfect men , which is a male part impounding of the grace of God common to all that keepe the commaundements of God , and liue and die in the faith of Iesus , it will trouble Bellarmine , and Victor : let father Haimo help them to perswade wise men , that Meri in Domino , to die in the Lord , is more proper to perfect men ; than ( Nubere in Domino , 1. Cor. 7.39 . to marry in the Lord ) to perfect women : howbeit , these two answeres play at hard-head , and beat out one anothers braines : Anselmus cannot abide we should allow the one , and Haimo and Victor wil be starke angrie with vs , if wee allowe the other , and therefore , to please both sides , it will be our best way to allowe neither .

But to proceede , Chrysostome makes another petition for the dead , [ that they may finde the Iudge fauourable , ] wherin we must consider two things ; the sentence of the Iudge , and the Execution . The sentence is either particular presently after death , Eccles. 11.26 . or generall at the last day in the clouds of heauen : touching the former Chrysostomes petition for [ fauour ] comes too late ; and touching the other , it must needs bee either venite benedicti patris mei , come ye blessed of my father ; or else , ite maledicti in ignem aeternum , Math. 25.34.41 . goe ye cursed into hell fire : no praying or sacrificing can either reuoke or alter this sentence , Ego Iehoua , & non mutor , I am the Lord , Malac. 3.6 . Genes. 18.25 . and change not : and as the Lord is immutable , so his sentence both first and last , is iust : Shall not the Iudge of the world doe right ? saith Abraham , as if he should say , it is impossible it should be otherwise : wherefore if any [ fauour ] bee to be found , it must be in the execution . Psal. 103.20 . Now the Executioners ( being either Angels or Diuels ) Angels must doe the will of God as it is enioyned them ; at the Diuels hands no [ fauour ] can bee looked for , nowe what s next ? verily it is hard to tell , vnlesse we call vpon God to rectifie that which is right , to mend that which is not amisse , to vndoe that which is done well , and to mitigate that punishment which is no sharper than it ought to be ; it may well stand with the folly of mans affections to make such prayers , but it will hardly stand with the wisedome and iustice of God to giue them the hearing , Suffragia aut ad hoc prosunt , vt plena sit remissio , Enchirid. cap. 110. aut tolerabilior damnatio , saith Austine , Suffrages are profitable to make either remission of sinnes more perfect , or damnation more tollerable ; but how remission or mitigation of an absolute and a iust sentence damnatorie , Ad supplicium tantum & tale , To punishment so great and of such qualitie : being vnder execution , can possibly stand with Ego Iehoua & non mutor in Malachy : it passeth the reach of all the wit & learning I haue to determine . Wherfore well might Chrysostome say , Nouerunt , the Apostles knew , what profite redounded to the dead , by commemoration in the dreadfull mysteries , for hee himselfe knew not how the prayers of Priest and people could profite the dead , much lesse how annuall commemorations could doe it .

And here let it bee considered , how vntowardly Chrysostome disputeth , the Apostles knew that commemoration of the dead at the altar was profitable vnto them ; Ergo , the Apostles ordained it should be so . I will not stand vpon the sequele , let that goe for good ; but how knewe Chrysostome what the Apostles knew ? who reuealed their counsell vnto him ? if any bodie told him ; what reason had he to beleeue it ? if no bodie told him ; what reason had he to say it ? and therefore he that loues Chrysostome best , must needs confesse that his antecedent is more doubtfull than his conclusion , but when hee reasoneth further , that the people and Priest stretching out their handes to heauen , must needs appease Gods wrath ; Ergo , commemoration of the dead is profitable : hee is much ouer-seene , for commemoration of the dead , and praying for the dead , are not the same , as the Papists themselues knowe and confesse , De purg . lib. 1. cap. 5. Epiphanius nusquam dicit orari pro sanctis , sed memoriam fieri , saith Bellarmine , Epiphanius neuer saith , we pray for the dead , but hold a memorie of them . And therefore herein Chrysostome is forsaken of all his friends both Papists and Protestants ; howbeit the growing of this vnluckie twigge , from profiting the quicke , to profiting the dead ; from commemorating at the altar , to praying , offering , and sacrificing at the altar ; from thankesgiuing to intreating , &c. is here made knowne vnto vs , so as now it is become a tree of so great spread , that a number of vncleane birdes build their nests in the braunches of it .

The Dialogue . Sectio . X.

TErtullian , a a This ancien father was a Montanist and a Chiliaste , as it appeareth by this place . This ancient father , reasoning with a woman ( whose husband was dead , ) concerning the bond that did still remaine betwéene her and her dead husband , concludeth thus , Let her pray for his soule , let her intreat that he may be refreshed b b What bond ? see Rom. 7.2 . He puts out and in , and misordereth Tertullians words . in the meane time , and that at the resurrection , she may haue the fruition of his company ; these things if she do not , it may be truely said of her , that she hath forsaken him , infinite are the places which might be alledged to this purpose , but this may suffice to prooue that this was the beléefe and practise of the c c Ierome saith that Tertullian was not homo ecclesiae a man of the church . Church in Tertullians time , who liued néere vnto the Apostles , that in Epiphanius , Ambrose , Austine , & Chrysostomes d d All these were of one time and onely Chrysostome fathereth this Tradition vpon the Apostles . it was holden for a Tradition left by the Apostles , and generally beléeued and practised through e e That which he called the Latine church is here called Vniuersall , &c. Vide Sect. 7. the vniuersall Church , and that it hath euer since bin so beléeued and practised through the world , vntill the bore affirmation of Luther that there was no such Tradition left by the Apostles , preuailed more with you , than the authoritie of all these ancient fathers , and the long continued practise of the vniuersall Church to the contrary .

The Answere .

YOur Papist heere alleadgeth Tertullian , and for very shame concealeth the place where this testimonie is to be found , if he had but named Tertullians booke de Monogamia , it had been a sufficient preseruatiue against the contagion of this allegation , for Ierome noteth this very booke , In Catal. Eccle. script . and the booke de exhortatione ad Castitatem , and some other to haue been written aduersus Ecclesiam , against the Church : and the same father writing against Heluidius , would not vouchsafe to answere a place alleadged out of Tertullians booke de Monogamia , no otherwise then thus , de Tertulliano nihil amplius dico , quàm Ecclesiae hominem non fuisse , of Tertullian I say no more , but that hee was not a man of the Church : so then Tertullian was a paracleticall Montanist , and the first father of the Tertullianists , which Austine speakes of in his booke of heresies , ad quod vult Deum ; Secondly , the booke de Monogamia is condemned of the Church ; and lastly , this very place hath two plague-sores running of it , as being infected with two capitall heresies , Tertulide Monogam . namely the heresie of the Montanists , and the heresie of the Chiliasts ; these be the words pro anima eius oret , & refrigerium interim adpostulet ei , & in prima resurrectione , consortium , & offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius , nam haec nisi fecerit , verè repudiauit quantùm in ipsa est , &c. Let her pray for his soule , and desire refreshing for him in the mean time , and his companie in the first resurrection , and let her offer yerely on the dayes of his death , for if he do not these things , she hath as much as lyeth in her made diuorce . Here wee see first , that Tertullian doth not say , ores , but oret , adpostules , but adpostulet , offeras , but offerat , feceris , but fecerit , repudiasti , but repudiauit , quantum in te est , but quantum in ipsa est , whereof it followeth , that hee doth not reason with a woman , but speake of a widow woman , reading her a Cataphrygian lecture not to marry againe , but to pray for the soule of one husband , to intreat for a refreshing to one husband , to desire companie of one husband , to offer yeerely for one husband , &c. for being a Montanist he thought it a fowle shame for her to pray thus for many husbands , Lib. de exhort . ad Castit . duplex iste rubor est , a double shame ; saith hee in another place , nay triplex , and quadruplex , if happily she marry so often , and so pray for the soules of so many husbands : wherefore we see by this little light that praying and offering for the dead , is held by Tertullian , as an appurtenance to Montanisme or the Cataphrygian heresie , and this is yet further strenthened in that Phylastrius saith , the Montanists held baptizing for the dead , which could not be done without prayers .

Now , touching the other heresie of the Millenaries or Chiliasts , your Papist translateth [ in prima resurrectione , in the first resurrection , ] [ at the resurrection , ] leauing out [ prima , ] as a note of shame ; for if there be a first resurrection , it followeth that there is another , call it a second resurrection , or what you will . Now ; euerie bodie knowes that the Chiliasts held two resurrections ; one at the next appearing of Christ in the cloudes , which blesseth all the godly with all bodily pleasures , meat , drinke , venerie , &c. Another a thousand yeeres after , when the wicked shall likewise be restored to felicitie . Apoc. 20.5.6 . If any happen to reply that Saint Iohn , ( though he be no Chiliast ) speakes of a first resurrection , as well as Tertullian : I answeare , that Saint Iohn by first resurrection , meaneth [ regeneration ] which Paul calleth [ a rising againe with Christ ] and so Beda expoundeth it , Colos. 3.1 . Beda . in Apoc. 20. saying , Sicut prima mors in hac vita est per peccata , ita & prima resurrectio in hac vita est per remissionem peccatorum ; As the first death is in this life by sinnes , so the first resurection is in this life by the forgiuenesse of sinnes . But Tertullians first resurrection , cannot be so vnderstood , vnlesse wee imagine [ this life ] to be after this life , which is impossible .

This is inough , I trow , and too much for answere to Tertullian , yet another tricke of false translation would not bee passed ouer , for where Tertullian saith , refrigerium interim adpostulet ei , & in prima resurrectione consortium , referring the word interim , to the intermediall time before the woman enioy her husbands companie : hee translateth it so , that it must needs be referred to the refreshing of his soule before the first resurrection in purgatorie or some place of sorrow ; which is not to be gathered out of this place , for , refrigerium , doth not import a former griefe , but a new blessing . And so this widow woman is not yet willed to pray for relaxation of paine , but that her husband may haue a ioyfull sentence of blessednesse in bodie and soule [ in the first resurrection , ] at what time shee was to expect the fruition of his companion .

Againe , obserue how this Popish translator hath vtterly omitted these words , [ & offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius ] whereby light is giuen vs , that all this praying and offering was but a matter of course , and custome continually performed for preseruation of the memorie of our friends and Christian brethren deceased : as there were annuall oblations , Tert. de Coron. milit. pro dormitione , for death or sleeping , so then were also pro natalitijs , for the birth ; and as the one was rather an honour to the dead , than an acknowledgement of their miserie , so was the other : yet now [ oblationes pro natalitijs ] are cleane taken away , and [ oblationes pro dormitione , ] or [ pro defunctis ] still continued , or rather augmented , or to speake more truely , cleane changed from the first institution ; howbeit I will not denie but Tertullian in time might haue some good conceite of purgatorie , or hell rather , for he cals it [ infernum , Lib. de Anima sect. 17. ] but I vtterly denie that euer he held any such doctrine before he was a Montanist , or euer knewe it , till his Paraclete taught him , in his Apologie against the Gentiles , within a lease or two of the end : thus he writes , Ideò representabuntur & corpora quià neque pati quicquam potest anima sola sine stabili materia , id est , carne , & animae non sine carne meruerunt , intra quam omnia egerunt , Therefore shall the bodies also represent , because both the soules offer any thing without stable matter that is the flesh , and the soules haue not deserued any thing without the flesh , in which they haue done all things . This opinion is not to be liked of , yet Tertullian held it so long as hee was a Catholicke : and therefore so long as he was a Catholicke [ Purgatorie ] would not downe with him , nor prayer for the dead ; neither if your Papists owne consequence bee good : And that Tertullian drew this purgatorian conceit , such as it was from Montanus his Paraclete , doe but read the last conclusion of his Booke de Anima ; thus hee writes [ Quum carcerem illum , quod euangelium demonstrat , inferos intelligimus , & nouissimum quadrantem modicum delictum mora resurrectionis illic luendum interpretamur : nemo dubitauit animam aliquid pensare penes inferos , salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnem quoque , When we vnderstand by the prison which the Gospell speaketh of hell , & interpret the last farthing , a small sin to be done away by the delaying of the resurrection : no man will doubt that the soule doth pay something in hell , leauing the rest to be fulfilled at the resurrection by the flesh also . Here we finde somewhat like purgatorie , though I dare not say it is the same , but let it be so if you will . Now , see what followeth in the same place immediately , Hoc Paracletus frequentissimè commendauit , si quis sermones eius ex agnitione charismatum promissorum admiserit , This the Paraclete hath often commended , if a man admit his saying , by acknowledging the promised graces ; Where you may learne that doctrine was knockt into Tertullians head by his familiar , that is , by the Paraclete of Montanus .

Yea , but why dare you not say , that this prison is Purgatorie ? doe you aske why ? Marry the verie wordes make me to stand doubtfull , namely , per carnem quoque , by the flesh also ; which to my vnderstanding import , that the soule only must not feele smart , but caro quoque , the flesh also , and good reason it should be so : for if nothing can enter into the kingdome of heauen before it bee purified , and wee know that the modica delicta , small sinnes , as well as other capitall sins , taint the body , as well as the soule ; wee must needes deuise a Purificatorie for the one , as well as a Purgatorie for the other , and so hold with Tertullian , that the soule before the resurrection , shall suffer per se , by it selfe ; and after the resurrection per carnem quoque , else all is marred . Robert Bellarmine the new Cardinall saw this place of Tertullian , I dare say for him , yet he passeth it ouer slightly , & citeth another place for purgatory out of the same booke , Ille ( id est angelus executionis ) te in carcerem mandet infernum , Bellar. de purg . lib. 1. cap. 4. & cap. 6. vnde non dimittaris , nisi modico quoque delicto mora resurrectionis expenso , He ( that is to say , the Angel of execution ) shall cast thee into infernall prison , whence thou shalt not come out , till euery little sinne be paid for by the delay of the resurrection . This place he cites in two seuerall places , and giues vs a speciall note to carry away with vs , Nota solum esse manendum in carcere purgatorij ad summum vsque ad resurrectionem ; But alas good father Robert , the other place marres the fashion of this note , for it addes , Salua resurrectionis plenitudine per carnem quoque , which giueth vs a new note , that both soule and body must likewise suffer in this infernall prison after the resurretion : I doubt when all is come to all , this prison will prooue to be hell , not purgatory , yet such a hell as the millinarie heresie dreamed to be temporall , not eternall ; wherefore I hope your papist will no more seeke the beleefe and practise of the Church in Tertullian , Ierom contra Heluid . who was not of the Church , nor looke any more in Tertullians mouth for his age , telling vs that he liued neere vnto the Apostles , till he can proue his doctrine to be apostolicall .

The names of Epiphanius , Ambrose , Austine , and Chrysostome are repeated heere for a shew , but you haue heard what priuate conference I had with them , whereunto adde that their witnesse , being single men , cannot iustly be accepted for a publike record of religion , whereunto Luther of any other seruant of God may not oppose himselfe ; they liued in a manner altogether , they could not see ouer farre either before , or behind , or about them , neither is it conuenient that wee should make an idoll of mans authoritie ; a great sort of fathers agree that Elias shall come before the last day , Mat. 17.12 . yet I had rather beleeue Christ that saith , Elias is come already ; many of the fathers say , the wicked a thousand yeres after domes day , Lib. 2. cap. 39. & 40. shal be saued , yet , by your leaue , I had rather say otherwise , Irenaeus held that Christ was nere fiftie yeres old when he was put to death , and proued it by the common consent of all the Bishops of Asia that learned it of S. Iohn : yet may we not beleeue that this was then beleeued through the vniuersall Church . Tertullian , in his Apologie for the Christian Churches of his time , saith that the soule cannot suffer any thing , Sine stabili materia , id est , earne : Yet may we not beleeue that Christians beleeued so through the world . The same father saith in the same Apologie , that Christians did them publikely pray , Pro mora finis , yet were it hard to say after him , Apoc. 22.20 . that the whole Church praied against the appearing of Christ in the clouds to vanquish death , and to accomplish their redemption . S. Iohn prayed , Come Lord Iesu , come quickely , And therefore I dare not say the Church euer prayed , Stay Lord Iesu , and come slowly . Howbeit let the Catholike fathers haue all the credite & honor that bare men be capable of , we will not stand against it , but to throw down so many kingdoms , so many dukedoms , so many flourishing Common-weales , so many free cities & Churches , as if the bare affirmation of one man did ouerrule them , it is too much indignitie : if Luthers bare affirmation be so mightie in operation , let not your Papist & his companions call any more for miracles to confirme his vocation , but if it be the breath of Gods mouth that began in him , & in his time more powerfully to consume Antichrist ; then in former ages : them feare , friend Papist , I say , feare the reuenging hand of God , who wil not suffer his power to be derided .

The Dialogue . Sectio XI . Purgatorie .

ALl the proofes before alleaged , for prayer for the dead , may as well serue for the proofe of Purgatorie , for such is the relation betweene the one and the other : as a a This is but a conceit , looke the answere . they cannot be separated . For why doe wee pray for the dead ? the answere is made by S. Chrysostome , that b b Some prayd to that ende without warrant , and some to other endes &c. as shall appeare . they may attaine to rest ; that they may find the iudge fauourable , whereof it followeth that they are in a place where they want rest , & where they haue néed of refreshing , yet I will alleage some few places for the peculiar proofe thereof . Saint Austine expounding the place of Saint Paul the third to the Corinths , if any man shall build vpon this foundation &c. saith thus , c c These places are not Austines . many there be , that by misunderstanding this place , doe deceiue themselues with a false securitie , beléeuing that if they doe build vpon the foundation , Christ capitall ofences , that those offences may notwithstanding bée purged by a transitorie fire , and that they may afterwards attaine euerlasting life : but this interpretation , dearely beloued , is to be corrected , for such men seduce themselues by this flatterie , for in that transitorie fire , whereof the Apostle speaketh where he saith he shall be safe as it were by fire , not capitall offences , but small sinnes are purged , d d This Sermon is written , long after Austines time , by Caesarius Arelatensis , Anno 670. Sermone de Sanctis 41. If you take exception against the authoritie of this place , as produced out of a counterfeit worke fathered vpon him ; you shall find in his 16. e e This is but facing and bracing . Homilie the same doctrine confirmed by the place of Saint Paul before mentioned , and out of the Prophets in such plaine manner , as no euasion will serue your turne .

The Answere .

PVrgatory hath his deaths wound alreadie , yet your Papist hopes to saue the life of it by the helpe of Austine and Ambrose and the Great Gregorie , yet none of them will say that prayer for the dead and purgatorie are so neere of kin , that the proofes of the one may serue for the other , for the Canon of the Masse praieth for such as doe Dormire in somno pacis , Sleepe the sleepe of peace : I doubt they sleepe not ouer peaceably in purgatorie , & if they do , yet I trow , he will confesse that Pope Leo , for whose soule they pray so deuoutly once a yeere , sleepes in heauen at more ease ; you heard before how Ambrose prayeth for Theodorus , Gratian , and Valentinian , whom he knew to be in heauen , and Pope Innocentius the third , Cap. cum Marthae , Homil. 32. confesseth that we may pray for increase of glory to the Saints of God , and so saith Chrysostome in his Homilies vpon Matthew . Againe , on the other side the Papists pray for the deliuerance of soules out of hell fire , Libera domine animas defunctorum de paenis inferni , In Missa de mort . Damas . in orat . de mort . Lib. 1. cap. 12. de profundo lacu , de ore Leonis , ne absorbeat eos Tartarus ne cadantin obscurum , &c. Deliuer oh Lord the soules of the dead from the paines of hell , from the deepe lake , from the mouth of the Lion , that hell swallow them not , that they fall not into darkenesse : Nay the great Gregorie himselfe prayed for Traians soule , & deliuered it out of hell ; and tels vs in his Dialogues that Saint Seuerus his prayers restored a wicked man to life , that had bene caried by deuils into hell , but if this be too strong for prayer to deale withall , what then can be said of such as pray for instigation of the paines of hell ? Austine saith they may be mitigated , Encharid . cap. 112. lib. 4. 1. dest . 46. and Peter Lumbard teacheth it out of Austine , now how this mitigation can be purchased otherwise , then by the prayers and suffrages of the liuing it were hard to define ; Saint Macharius , fetched this point of learning out of the dead scull or scalpe of an idolater that sayd thus vnto him , Quando pro mortuis offers preces , nos interim aliquid lenimenti sentimus , Damasc . in orat . pro mort . In lib. 4. dist. 45. Art. 2. quest. 2. When thou offerest prayers for the dead , we in the meane while feele some ease or mitigation of paine . And the Angelicall doctor of Aquine graunteth that the soules of the damned , reape some good by the prayers of the godly , wherfore we see that though we graunt prayer for the dead , yet purgatory will require peculiar proofes , before it can bee graunted .

Austines authoritie is first obiected out of a booke of Sermons which your Papist himselfe aforehand confesseth to be counterfeit , yet he alleageth it at large , as though currant and counterfeit were all one : neuerthelesse looke the Sermon through , and you shall find that these words , quia in igne reuelabitur , and these , Si cuius opus arserit , detrimentum patietur , If any mans worke burne , he shall suffer losse : and also these , Saluus erit sic tamen quasi per ignem , Yet he shall be saued as it were by fire , are all ment of the same fire , and that such as build gold and siluer and precious stones vpon the foundation of Christ , shall passe through it ; but without any hurt , Absque vlla violatione , and so come to heauen , Velut aurum purgatum , that is , as gold purified or purged by fire . I doubt your Popish Gentleman will not allow all this for currant in his Diuinity Mint , and therefore no reason , we should accept of it for good payment , I could say further that this Authour , yeelding somewhat to their errour against whom he disputeth , doth but correct their interpretation , and draw it a little aside from capitall offences to small sinnes , lest denying all , and yeelding to nothing , his exhortation might prooue fruitlesse . Howbeit the true Austine was neuer resolued that Saint Paul in this place to the Corinths speakes of purgatorie , as appeareth in his Euchiridion a worke not counterfeit , Cap. 67. & . 97. Si homo sceleratus propter solam fidem per ignem saluabitur , & sic est accipiendum quod ait beatus Paulus Apostolus , ipse autem saluus erit , sic tamen quasi per ignem , poterit ergo saluare sine operibus fides &c. If a wicked man be saued by faith onely , by fire , and so it is to be taken which blessed Paul the Apostle sayeth , but he shal be saued , yet so as it were by fire , therefore faith is able to saue without workes . Heere the knowne Austine makes an if at the matter , and dares not expound S. Paul as the counterfeit Austine doth , of the fire of Purgatorie , nay a litttle after he interprets this fire to be , animi dolor , saying , Cum iste animi dolor vrit , si Christus in corde fundamenti locumhabet , id est , vt ei nihil anteponatur , & malit homo qui tali dolore vritur , rebus quas ita diligit carere magis quam Christo , per ignem sit saluus . When this griefe of mind doth burne , if Christ haue the place of a foundation in the heart , that is to say , if nothing be preferred before him , and the man which is burned with such a griefe , had rather want the things which hee so loueth than Christ , he is saued by fire .

Yea but what say you to the place of Austine in his homilies , where the doctrine of purgatorie is so confirmed out of Paul to the Corinths , and out of the Prophets , that you cannot auoid it ? Alas , this is but a Popish brag , for this testimonie is as very a counterfeit as the other , & touching the place it selfe , thus lie the words , Qui temporalibus paenis digna gesserunt , de quibus Apostolus dixit , si cuius opus arserit detrimentum patietur , ipse ausē saluus erit sic tamen quasi per ignem , per fluuium igneum , de quo propheticus sermo commemorat , & fluuius igneus currebat ante eum , transibunt &c. They which haue done things worthie temporall paines , ( of whom the Apostle saith : If any mans worke burne , he shall suffer losse ; but he shall be saued , yet so as it were by fire ) shall passe through the riuer of fire , which the words of the Prophet mention : and a riuer of fire ranne before him . You see here that Pauls place is alleaged for nothing els but to shew that some doe things worthie of temporall paines , which we denie not , nay we will graunt further that our workes shall abide a fierie triall , yet the fire that trieth euery mans worke , is not a fire by nature , but by metaphore , and if it be metaphoricall any where , it must be so chiefly there , where it is slaked with sic tamen , yet so , & quailed with quasi , as it were .

Now where this Austine saith further , that these temporallists shall passe through that fierie streame which the Prophet speaketh of , Dan. 7.10 . though I might answere that they may so passe , Absque vlla violatione , without any hurt , as hath bin seene before , yet looke the place in Daniels Prophesie , & you shal soone find , that the Prophet speakes there , not of a fiery flood , that was indeed really , but which he saw in a vision ; he saw in the same vision the ancient of dayes , that is , God himselfe sit vpon a fiery throne in white apparel , & the haire of his head like pure wooll : yet I trow , no man will therfore imagine , that God sits in purgatorie ; or weares apparell , or hath either head or haire ; moreouer the horned beast that spake presumptuously against God , and his Saints was slaine , and his body was throwne into this fire ; I hope , purgatorie fire was neuer made for bodies , but for soules ; neither yet for blaspheming tyrants , but for pidling offences of small moment .

There is another place out of Ezechiel which this pretended Austine dragges in , whether the Prophet will or no , Cap. 24. to countenance purgatorie , for whereas the holy Ghost euidently compareth the citie of Ierusalem to an emptie pot or kettle , set vpon the hot coles of Gods wrath , to the intent that her filthinesse might be consumed : he will needes outface vs that the scripture compareth a sinfull soule to this pot , saying , Sermo diuinus quodam in loco ellae animam peccatricem comparat , and then cries out amaine , Illic sermones otiosi , & cogitationes iniquae , illic multitudo leuum peccatum , illic stannum vel plumbum diuersorum subrepentina delictorum consumentur , &c. There idle speeches and wicked thoughts , there the multitude of light sinnes , there the tinne or lead of diuers secret sinnes shall be consumed . Yet the great Gregorie tels vs , that they cannot be saued by fire which build ferrum , Dial. lib. 4. cap. 39. aes , plumbum , iron , brasse , lead , vpon the foundation , for by these he vnderstandeth peccata maiora , duriora , insolubilia , greater , harder , or pardonable sinnes ; and to say the trueth , such were the sinnes of Ierusalem which Ezechiel speakes of , and therefore no meat for purgatorie to feede on .

The Dialogue . Sectio XII .

SAint Ambrose , This ancient father ( expounding the same place of S. Paul ) saith thus , he shall be saued , because the a a He consisteth of body and soule ; but both , I trow , belong not to purgatory . substance whereon he consisteth , shall not perish , as his euill doctrine shall , because an accident is the cause , and therefore the Apostle sayd , yet as it were by fire : because this saluation is not without punishment , he said not , he shall be saued by fire , as if by b b I trow , he may escape purgatory by merits . his merite he should remaine vnburned , being examined by fire ; but when he saith , yet as it were by fire , he sheweth that hée shall be saued , and yet receiue c c In this world , not in Purgatory . punishment , that being purged by fire , he may be saued , and not punished with the damned in eternall fire .

The Answere .

AMbrose conuerted S. Austine , and therefore , I trow , they expound S. Paul both alike , and indeed Ambrose here is cleere against Purgatory , and must be vnderstood , for ought I yet see , of the fierie tryall and afflictions of this life ; 1. Pet. 1.7 . for tell me , what substance doth a false teacher consist of ? doth he not consist , as other men doe , of body and soule ? why then his substance whereof he consisteth , is neither examined nor punished in purgatory fire , which toucheth not the body , but by that same animi dolor , griefe of mind , which Austine speakes of : moreouer Ambrose here excludes merite , saying , that his merite cannot so saue him from burning , but he must needs receyue punishment , that he may be saued , which cannot be vnderstood of the paynes of Purgatory , for they may be redeemed by the merits of this life , if you will beleeue counterfet Austine ; De Sanctis serm. 41. Hmil . 16. totis viribus vnusquisque laboret , vt minuta peccata possit ita bonis operibus redimire , vt de ipsis nihil videatur remanere , quod ille ignis possit absumere ; and againe , Illic multitudo lenium peccatorum consumentur , quae hic ab anima separari per eleemosynas & lachrymas compendiosa transactione potuissent , Let euerie man labour with all his might , that hee may redeeme his small sinnes with good workes , that there may seeme nothing to remaine of them , which that fire may consume . There the multitude of light sinnes shall bee consumed , which might easily haue bin separated from the soule by almes and tears .

Againe , Ambrose applieth Pauls words to false teachers , whose euill doctrine shall perish , as hee saith , and indeede Paul speakes of the Doctors of Corinth , and of their faults in teaching and therefore if there be a purgatory to be found here , it must be a purgatory for preachers and teachers of euill doctrine , Bellarm. de purg . lib. 1. cap 4. Mat. 5.19 . not for euery one that commits a smal pidling offence , and hath payd all but a few farthings : now where it is said , that there is the same reason of other mens sinnes , I doubt they teach euil doctrine that say so , and so make them selues thrall to purgatory , for he that breaketh the least commandement , which Papists count but a veniall slip , and teacheth men so , shall be called the least in the kingdome of heauen , saith our Sauiour , teaching vs , that the sinne of a teacher and of another ordinary man , euen in small things , differ much , and may not be ballanced with the same weights , for to breake and teach is a greater offence by much , then to breake onely , and so the one may goe to heauen without trouble , when the other must sticke in the bryers and stand vpon his purgation . So then this place of Ambrose , you see , is like a Carpentars toole called a twibill , which , when a man hewes with the one ende of it , is ready to pecke out his eyes with the other : and this did Bellarmine see wel inough , for he cuts off the forepart of Ambroses testimony , which speakes of substance and merite , and euill doctrine , and alledgeth onely these last words ; Cum Paulus dicit , sic tamen quasi per ignem , ostendit quidem illum saluum futurum , sed poenas ignis passurum , vt per ignem purgatus fiat saluus , & non sicut perfidi aeterno igne in perpetuum torqueatur ; When Paul saith , yet so as it were by fire , he sheweth indeed that he shal be saued , but shall suffer the paynes of fire , that being purged by fire he may be saued , and not tormented perpetually in euerlasting fire , as the obstinate , &c. Wherefore I like your popish fellowes simplicitie a great deale better , who cites Ambrose by whole sale , substance , accident , merite , euill doctrine , and all ; for though in so doing , he haue lesse wit then Bellarmine , yet I will beare him witnesse , he hath more honesty , but to wind vp all in a word , if you be desirous to know Ambroses meaning , I thinke you may easily picke it out of these words of S. Austine , De ciuit . Dei lib. 21. cap. 13. Nos etiam in hac quidem mortali vita esse quasdam paenas purgatorias confitemur ; Wee also confesse that there are in this mortall life , certaine purgatory paynes .

The Dialogue . Sectio XIII .

GRegorius Magnus , The a a The trueth giueth you no such thing to vnderstand , looke the answere . truth hath sayd , if any man shall blaspheme the holy Ghost , he shall not be forgiuen in this world , nor in the world to come : whereby he giueth vs to vnderstand , that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in this world ; and some in the world to come : for proofe whereof , he vseth also the place b b Hee saith , it may be vnderstood , de igne tribulationis in hac vita . of Saint Paul before cited by Saint Austine , and Saint Ambrose , to the same effect . Dialog. lib. 4. cap. 39.

The Answere .

POpe Gregorie , is heere brought in with his great title to fray vs , and yet , God wote , hee pleads but simply for Purgatorie ; for touching the place of Saint Paul , thus hee writes , Quamuis hoc de igne tribulationis in hac vita nobis adhibitae possit intelligi , tamen si quis hoc de igne futurae purgationis accipiat , &c. Although this may be vnderstood of the fire of tribulation , which wee feele in this life , yet if any take it of the purgation of fire to come &c. As if hee should say , though I be of opinion , that Paul speakes of the fire of affliction , whereby God examineth his children in this life : yet if any take it otherwise , I will not stand against it ; this is but a silly proofe : and touching the other place of Saint Matthew , out of which hee concludeth , that [ some sins are forgiuen in this world , and some in the world to come : Cap. 12.32 . ] his conclusion is cleane contrarie to all Logicke , for no reason will lead vs to reason thus , this one sinne is not forgiuen , Ergo , some sins are forgiuen in the world to come ; this is a plain Non sequitur , and so saith Bellarmine , De purg . lib. 1 cap. 4. Non sequitur secundum regulas dialecticorum , It followeth not according to the rules of Logicke ; but will you know now how it followeth ? then hearken what the Iesuite saith further , Sequitur secundum regulam prudentiae , It followeth according to the rule of wisedome . So you see howe it followeth , and how it followeth not , it followeth by the rule of wit , it followeth not by the rules of Logicke , belike Wit is a Papist ; and Logicke a Protestant : but consider ( I beseech you ) how farre this Popish wit would goe , if it might hee suffered , Dominus ineptissimè loquitur , ( saith Bellarmine ) si in futuro saeculo nullum peccatum remittitur , The Lord speaketh most foolishly , if no sinne be forgiuen in the world to come . See how this sawcie Iesuite thinks it not inough to say , Dominus non loquitur secundum regulam prudentiae , &c. The Lord speakes not according to the rule of wit , which hath some little shew of modestie ; but Dominus ineptissimè loquitur , &c. The Lord speakes most foolishly , if his Iesuiticall conceit of remitting sinnes in another world be not admitted , this is the desperatenesse of Popish Diuinitie : but tell mee , I beseech you , is not the speech still alike foolish , if no great sinnes be remitted in the world to come ? yes verily , for thus must it be conceiued , the great sinne against the holy Ghost shall neuer bee forgiuen , neither there where great sinnes are forgiuen , that is , in this world ; nor there where no great sinnes are forgiuen , that is , in the world to come . Is not this speech ( thinke you ) as farre from Bellarmines [ regula prudentiae , rule of wit ; ] as the other ? yet is it propounded according to the Popish conceit ; for as wee thinke no sinne , so they think no great sin , is remitted in seculo futuro , in the world to come . Gregory in this very Dialogue saith , Dial. lib. 4. ca. 39. Serm. 41. that peccata maiora , greater sinnes , be tunciam insolubilia , be impardonable ; and counterfeit Austine saith as much in his sermons De Sanctis . Now then whereas the Pope thinkes , that our Sauiour in Mathew giueth vs to vnderstand , that some sinnes shall be forgiuen in the world to come ; let him tell vs what sinnes those be , great or small ; great sinnes be tunc iam irremissibile , as he saith himselfe : and if he meane small sinnes , then is our Sauiours speech as farre out of square , as if a man should say , This great heape of corne cannot bee contained , neither in this bushell , nor in a fleeting dish .

But why should the speech of Christ bee most foolish , if no sinne at all be remitted in the world to come ? might not our Sauiour speake so by exaggeration , that the speech might the better pierce the vncircumcised hearts , and eares of the Pharises ? No , saith the Iesuite , Exaggeratio non debet esse inepta , qualis est , cum fit partitio & vni membro nihil respondet , An exaggeration ought not to bee foolish , as for example ; when a partition is made , and nothing agreeth to one of the parts . Is this the folly hee talkes of ? why it is easie to see , that not to remit the sin against the holy Ghost , is answerable alike , both to this world , and the world to come , which bee the members of our Sauiours partition , for that great sin is neuer remitted , neither in the one , nor the other ; 1. Cor. 13.1 . Galat. 1.8 . Apoc. 5.3 . yet notwithstanding we haue examples of such foolish partitions in the word of God : Paul saith , Though I speake with the tongues of men and Angels , whereas Angels haue no tongues to speake . And in another place , though we or an Angell from heauen speake otherwise , &c. Yet Angels be no Preachers ; so likewise the spirite of God saith , No man is able to open , read , or looke vpon the Booke , neither in heauen , nor in earth , nor vnder the earth : yet be there no openers , or readers , or lookers vpon Bookes in heauen , or hell .

Thus Pope Gregorie is answered ; Cap. 12.32 . yet that you may euidently see how insufficient this place of Mathew is to found Purgatorie vpon ; I will set you downe diuers sufficient and full answeres which take away the force of all Popish collections . And first we may well aske what is meant by this world , and the world to come . For , albeit men commonly take this world , to be the space intermedial between a mans birth and his death , which makes as many worlds , as there be men , or shall be , and euerie world to haue a seuerall beginning and ending , some past , some present , some to come : yet if I should vnderstand it otherwise , for the whole continuance of this world , 2. Pet. 3.10 . till it bee dissolued in the great day of God , and that same new heauen and newe earth bee made , whereof the world to come shall consist ; the case would be cleane altered , for then the Papists must not seeke for purgatorie in the world to come , as they did before , but in this world , where it is impossible to finde it , when the blind man in Iohns gospel saith [ since the world began , Ioh. 9.32 . was it not heard that any man opened the eies of one that was borne blinde . ] I hope he means not , that such a miracle was neuer wrought since the day of his birth , but from the creation . Mark . 13.19 . Math. 24.21 . For so Saint Marke expoundeth Saint Mathew , where he sayth , [ there shall be great tribulation , such as was not from the beginning of the world . Againe , when wee read elsewhere in Mathew , Math. 13.39 . that [ the haruest is the end of the world , ] he doth not meane the day of euerie mans death , but the day of Christs second comming , 1. Cor. 15.24 . [ for then shall bee the end ] saith Saint Paul . And then the reapers , that is , the Angels shall gather the tares to the fire , and the wheat to Christs barne , so shall it bee , Math. 13.30 . Math. 13.40.49 . ( saith our Sauiour ) in the end of the world . Now then as this present world beganne , when this heauen and this earth were created , and shall continue till they bee melted with seruent heat : so it is agreeable to reason , and not disagreeable to Diuinity , that the world to come should begin , 2. Pet 3.7 . Ibid. vers. 13. when there shall bee a new heauen , and a new earth , as Saint Peter hath fore-prophecied .

But I will not hold your Papist to such hard-meat : and therefore I answere secondly out of Marke , who expoundeth Saint Mathew thus , Mark . 3.29 . Non habet remissionem in aeternum , Hath not remission for euer ; or , Reus erit aterni delicti , Guiltie of an euerlasting sinne ; or , Aeternae damnationis , Euerlasting damnation . Here comes in Bellarmine sweating , and tels vs that Mathew expounds Marke , not Marke Mathew . This is strange , that a text should be expounded before it is written , or the author extant , but why must wee take Mathew to be the expositor of Marke ? Marry , Quia Mathaeus copiosiùs scripsit , & pluribus verbis vtitur , Because Mathew wrote more copiously , and vseth more words . So , Glossa ordinaria , and interlinearis , or what other glosse , or briefe draught soeuer , may not be sayd to expound , vnlesse it bee more copious than the text , than which , what can be more dotingly spoken ; but goe too , saith he any thing else to that purpose ? Yes that hee doth , for thus hee reasoneth , Aut Christus dixit vt haket Mathaeus , vel vt habet Marcus , vel vtroque modo ; si primum veltertium , habeo intentum , si secundum , tunc Mathaeus exposuit verba Christi , Christ spake either as Marke hath it , or as Mathew , or both wayes ; if the first , or the third way , I haue my intent ; if the second , then Mathew expounded the words of Christ . How like you this reason ? Verily , I neuer heard a worse , for it is incredible that Christ spake word for word , either as Mathew or Marke haue set downe , and it is impossible hee should speake , vtroque modo , both wayes together , vnlesse it were by way of exposition thus , Non remittitur , idest , non habet remissionem in aeternum , neque in hoc saeculo , neque in futuro , id est , reus erit aeternae damnationis , He shal not be forgiuen , that is to say , hath not forgiuenes for euer , neither in this world , nor in the world to come , that is , shal be guilty of euerlasting damnation . But let vs grant him his partition , though euerie part of it be false ; yet may you soone see he hath said nothing ; for if the first bee true , then Marke hath expounded it ; if the last , it is so likewise ; if the second , then wee haue our desire , for then the words in Mathew haue no more in them , than Marke hath set downe ; 1. Cor. 11.23 . otherwise Mathew deliuered more than hee receiued of the Lord . Wherefore that he may be taken himselfe in the snares of his owne reason , I will send it him home , as a Proselite , or conuert to dispute against his old Maister , and to say to him , Aut Christus dixit vt habet Marcus , vel vt habet Mathaeus , vel vtroque modo , si primum vel tertium , habeo intentum , si secundum , tunc Marcus exposuit verba Christi , Christ spake either as Marke hath it , or as Mathew , or both wayes ; if the first , or the third , then I haue my entent ; if the second , then Marke expounded the words of Christ .

A third answere we fetch out of the vsuall knowne manner of the Hebrew tongue , which expoundeth one contrarie by negation of the other ; and contrarywise , Psal. 69.26 . Act 1.20 . Psa. 69 , 29. Psal. 109 , 13. Prou. 19.5.9 . Esay 34 , 10. Mark . 3 , 29. the negatiue of the one , by affirming the other , as for example , [ Let their habitation be voide ] id est , [ Let no man dwell in their Tents . ] [ Let them be wiped out , ] id est , [ Let them not be written . ] [ Let his wickednesse be remembred , ] idest , [ Let it not bee done away . ] Againe , [ he shall not escape or be vnpunished , ] idest , [ he shall perish . ] It shall not be quenched day nor night . ] id est , [ It shall smoke for euermore . ] And to giue one example for all , Marke the Euangelist expoundeth himselfe after this manner : for when he had said , [ shall neuer haue forgiuenesse , ] hee addeth for explication , but is vnder eternall damnation , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . So then being armed with so many examples in this behalfe , and hauing Saint Marke to be our Captaine , and as it were fore-man in our quest , we say , that not to bee forgiuen , neither in this world , nor the world to come , is no more , but to be punished and perish both here and there , to be vnder eternall damnation , to bee out of all hope of future deliuerance .

But what should wee labour to answere that , that needes no answere , for we confesse , there is a doing away of sinnes in the world to come ; and yet you are neuer the neerer your Purgatorie : for first , as [ not to forgiue ] is as much to say , as [ to punish , ] so [ to forgiue ] is as much to say , as [ not to punish ; ] in which sence , there is forgiuenes in the world to come , as well as in this world . Secondly , Saint Peter saith , Act. 3.19 . [ Amend you liues and turne , that your sinnes may be done away when the time of refreshing shall come , &c. that is , at the second comming of Christ to restore all thinges , where wee learne , that our sinnes are compleatly forgiuen , till death , sinne , and hell be fully vanquished , and discharged at the last day .

De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 9. Lastly , Bellarmine saith , that Mali habitus in vita contracti , are taken away , per primum actum contrarium animae separatae , that is to say , a habite of ill doing , which grew a long time by many bad actions , De Purg. lib. 2. Cap. 2. & 3. is cleane purged in a moment by one good deede ; and yet hee holds stiffely against Luther , that soules departed can neither mereri , nor demereri ; howbeit here we finde a taking away or forgiuenesse of sinnes in another world , without scorching in purgatory , by the good deedes of soules departed . Now , whether these deedes be merita or demerita , or what other name it will please him to allow them , some of his Popish friends may doe well to resolue vs .

The Dialogue . Sectio XIIII .

THus You a a speake of more than you haue done , or can doe . haue I , for proofe of this point of Catholicke Doctrine , produced against you , all the meanes that euer were deuised to conuince an heresie ; and on the other side , you are put to all the shifts , that euer hereticke deuised for defence of Heresie , from the b b The Doctors haue no authoritie or dominion ouer our faith . authoritie of Doctors , and Fathers , and the continuall practise of the vniuersall Church , you must appeale vnto Scriptures ; from Scriptures c c We make no such appeale . to the interpretation ; and from the interpretation of d d We looke not to be saued by Ambrose , Aug. and Gregories faith , but by our owne . Abak . Cap. 2.4 . Ambrose , Austine , and Gregorie the Great , to the interpretation and deuise of your owne braine , as vnto the supreame and onely sufficient Iudge of all controuersies . So that I must either discontinue my suit , or put the matter to comprimise , and make your selfe sole arbitrator , which if I should doe , and could tell how to propound the case vnto you in such couert maner , as the Prophet Nathan did to Dauid , I would not doubt but to drawe from you the like sentence as Dauid pronounced against himselfe , as for example ; if I should put your owne case vnto you thus masked , and disguised , in the habit of a case in law , Iohn a Stile seazed of the Manor of Dale , wherof he and his Auncestors haue béen quietly possessed time out of minde , hath to shew , for proofe of his title , a record of the Tower , dated the first of H. 1. whereby it appeareth that the Conquerour gaue this Land to one of his Auncestors ; to the same effect , he hath also another like record of H. 2. and another of H. 3. Iohn a Noke claymeth an interest in this Land , and alleageth for maintenance of his title thereunto , that , notwithstanding the sayd possession and records , the Conqueror did giue no such Mannor vnto the Auncestors of Iohn a Stile , and that , without a Charter from the Conquerour to be shewed to that effect , his interest is neuer the better . A faire Charter is produced and acknowledged by the Plaintiffe , but he desireth , that the true and right interpretation of the words may be taken ; the interpretation concerning the true meaning and sense of the words deliuered by the reuerend Iudges in a like case , long before this controuersie grew , is shewed , which ouer-ruleth the matter plainely with the Defendant . The Plaintiffe replyeth , that the Iudges like men , did erre in their opinion , and that himselfe , and some other , that claime like interest in the land , can giue the right interpretation of the words , whereunto he will referre the whole triall of his cause . I pray you either tell me who is like to haue best interest to this land , or giue mée an d d Ye shall haue instances inow , looke the answere . instance where the cases doe differ . The Testimonies of Epiphanius , Chrysostome , Austine , & Ambrose , who e e They affirme it not , but you father it vpon them . affirme that praier for the dead , was a tradition of the Apostles , are the records of the Tower , the Scriptures the Charter of the Conqueror , the interpretation of the sayd Doctors of the place of Saint Paul Cor. 3. the opinion of the Iudges deliuered for the explication of the true sense and meaning of the words of the Charter . This case being agréed by our Counsell , let it bée mooued at the Checker barre , and let my f f This should haue been omitted in common discretion . Lord chéefe Barons opinion therein be a finall end of the controuersie betwéen vs .

The Answere .

HEre our popish Diuine will needs bee a Lawyer ; and therefore he puts cases against vs : but his deuises and producements , are too homely to controll a truth , and to settle a mans faith and conscience . We haue seen what those Fathers and Doctors say , and we haue shewed him how vnable they are to beare the burden hee layeth vpon them , and therfore he had need to deale couertly , by masking and disguising , if euer he looke to enioy his Mannor of Dale .

Howbeit , the breake-necke of all , is this , the cases differ , as may bee shewed by many instances . First , you haue not had quiet possession time out of minde ; for it was disturbed by Aerius , and so along euen to the daies of Luther , as Bellarmine confesseth in his Treatise of Purgatorie . Secondly the Greeke Church was neuer seased of this mannor . Vsque in hodiernum diem purgatorium non est à Graecis creditum , Lib. 1. cap. 2. De haeres . libr. 8. ca. 1. Euen till this day Purgatorie is not beleeued by the Grecians , saith Alphonsus , and so saith Roffensis , in Polidore de inuentoribus rerum . Thirdly the conqueror neuer gaue it by charter , but it was taken rather from the paraclete of Mountanus , as I shewed before out of Tertullian , and so defended afterward by colour of charter . Fourthly your Iohn a Stile hath no sufficient record to shew that prayer for the dead , is a Tradition of the Apostles . Fiftly , if that record could be found , and were graunted , yet that which he claimeth by Charter from the Conquerour will not follow , Lib. de fide et●per . cap. 13. & 16. & ad Dulcit . quaest . 1. Esa. 53.5 . Rom. 8.1 . Apoc. 14.13 Eccles. 9.6 . as hath bene seene alreadie . Sixtly , the Charter which is shewed , is not faire , but doubtfull , and full of difficulties , so saith Austine , one of your own iudges . Seuenthly , there is a fairer Charter to the contrary in Esay , Paul , and Saint Iohn , and Salomon saith plainely that the dead haue no part in the world of any thing , ( whether it be prayer , sacrifice , Almes , or whatsoeuer else ) that is done vnder the sunne , which cleerely confoundeth Iohn a Stile , and all other Iackes that plead for him . Lastly , the doctors may aduise , and giue counsell , and plead at the barre , but if they presume to sit vpon the bench as iudges , 1. Pet. 5.3 . 2. cor. 24. and ( Lords ouer Gods heritage ) or hauing dominion ouer their faith : then are they traitors against the Conquerour .

The Dialogue . Sectio XV. Transubstantiation .

NOw followeth Transubstantiation , wherein , because I haue a a You take much vpon you but you performe little taken vpon me to alleage no proofe which may by any glosse or interpretation be wrested into another sense , there is greater difficultie , for what can be deuised to be spoken thereof so perspicuously : which by some such shift , may not be auoided ; if the fathers say that the body of Christ , after words of consecration , is really present , that is a figuratiue spéech ; if they make mention of the vnbloody sacrifice , or of the sacrifice of the Altar : that is b b who makes such an interpretation ? interpreted , the sacrifice of thankesgiuing , they could not vse the word Transubstantiation , because it was not c c The fathers had not the wit to deuise such a trimme word . deuised before the Councell of Laterane : let vs admit that d d One will hardly serue for the vniuersall Church . one of the ancient fathers were risen from the dead , for to vnfold what his beliefe was , and what the vniuersal Church did hold in his time concerning Transubstantiation , what should we e e Transubstantiation must stand by deuises , or els it wil soone fall . deuise to demaund of him , or what might he deuise to say vnto vs for final determination therof ? if we should aske whether the very body of Christ be present in the sacrament in forme of bread , and he should answere , f f No father answereth so . yea , this would not serue , but if we should replie thus . How can it bée the bodie of Christ ? Shall I not beléeue mine owne eies , which tell me that it is bread ? if this doctor should g g Theodoret , Chrysostome , Austine , Tertul and Ambrose himselfe answere so . answere that the bread is called the bodie of Christ in a figuratiue sense , & that in Sacraments , the signe is many times called , by the name of the thing signified , were not this controuersie cléerely determined on the protestants side ? Contrariwise , If this doctor should answere , that God is omnipotent , and therefore able to doe what hée will , seeme it neuer so contrary to our senses and vnderstanding : that he was able to make heauen and earth of nothing : and to doe all the great wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt : were h h No verilie were it not : see the answere . not the matter as cléerely determined on the Papists side ? what cauill could you ( in this case ) imagine or deuise eftsoones to cal in question what this doctors opinion should be concerning i i Transubstantiation wil not come without a better pull . transubstantiation ? will you imagine that he hath spoken al this of Gods omnipotency , to proue that he is able to make you k k As though there were nothing held by vs , but , calling , naming , signifying , and figuring ? cal the signe of the Sacrament by the name of the thing signified , or to make bread to be a figure of Christs naturall bodie ? Pro. When such a doctor shal arise from the dead , and so determine of the matter as you haue imagined , I will make you answere , in the meane time you must giue me leaue with reuerence to thinke that none of the auncient fathers weare so grosse and absurd as to be of your opinion in this point : but to admit that such a castle were built in the aire as you haue imagined , I must then l l Then do you confesse more than other Protestants will . confesse that such a supposed doctor did hold Transubstantiation . Pap. This very question was thus asked , vrged , answered , and determined for the Papists , by Saint Ambrose when he was liuing , and m m Non sequitur . therefore you must néeds graunt that he did hold Transubstantiation , read his booke De ijs quae initiantur mysterijs , the Chapter beginneth thus , Quomodo tu dicis mihi , hoc est corpus Christi ? aliud video , panem video &c. How sayest thou that this is the bodie of Christ ? I doe sée it to be another thing , I doe sée that it is bread , for answere hereof Saint Ambrose doth alleage , that God was able to make heauen and earth of nothing , and for the proofe of Gods omnipotent power , he repeateth all the wonders and miracles of the land of Egypt , as in that Chapter at large appeareth , this was , n n But no doubt it was not , but if it were his faith , then was it not his opinion . no doubt , Saint Ambrose his faith in this point , and the beliefe and practise of the vniuersall Church in his time , for it is not like that so great a doctor did dissent from the Catholike Church in so materiall a point , neither is it o o No , for they were both Protestants . probable that S. Ambrose was a Papist in this opinion , & S. Austine , whom he conuerted to the Christian faith , a Protestant .

The Answere .

IF your Papist were acquainted with such another as the witch of Endor , 1. Sam. 28.7 . it seemes he would cause one ancient father or other to be raised vp from the dead to auouch Transubstantiation , his companions depend vpon the apparitions of soules , the speeches of dead corpes , & dead skuls & such like strong illusions , as the heathen did vpon their oracles , otherwise it would not be so open & cleare a matter that Poperie is a doctrine of deuils , he hath taken vpon him to alleage such proofe as cannot be wrested by any glosse or interpretation into another sense , and therefore being intangled with such a difficultie , he thinkes himselfe hardly able to mainetaine his credite without helpe from the dead : yet me thinkes a wise man should not measure other mens wits by his owne , nor imagine all glosses and interpretations to be in his owne head , neuerthelesse I see heere that hee can make glosses of words that were neuer either spoken or written ; if the fathers say that the bodie of Christ is really present ; that is a figuratiue speech : a figuratiue speech , quoth he ? that must needs be a strange figuratiue speech , that was neuer spoken , and they be strange fathers , that driue vs to shift them of by figures , when they say nothing .

Againe , if the fathers mention the vnbloody sacrifice , or the sacrifice of the Altar , that is interpreted the sacrifice of thankesgiuing , heere is a glosse more then needs , for if the fathers should so say , they hurt not our cause : and therefore no reason we should seeke for glosses or interpretations to shift them of , Euseb. de demonstr. euang. lib. 1. cap. 10 : Sacrificium Altaris , Sacrifice of the Altar , doth no more hurt vs , then sacrificium mensae , sacrifice of the table , doth hurt him , and sacrificium incruentum , sacrifice vnbloody , hurts him , and not vs , for the popish sacrifice wherein blood is really offered by boulefuls , and drunke vp by the Priest , if not by the people , can hardly beare the name of an vnbloody sacrifice without some charitable glosse or interpretation , if the fathers should call it the vnfleshly sacrifice , I thinke it would do his carnall presence little good , and therefore I cannot see how the terme vnbloody can greatly further him .

Yet see how this fond Papist prattles one , as though these termes , Sacrifice , Altar , and vnbloody , were equiualent with Transubstantiation , they could not vse the word Transubstantiation , because it was not deuised before the Councill of Lateran : a worthie deuise , no doubt , if the bodie of Christ be made of bakers bread , for Transubstantiation is a turning of one substance into another , but if the bread vanish to nothing , and then the body of Christ come into the void roomes , which the bread leaues behind it , as the Papists hold at this day : then must the word Transubstantiation giue place too , as well as the bread , and cessio , or or substitutio , giuing place , succession , substituting : or some such new deuise or other must succeed it , howbeit the old fathers wanted no words to vtter their mind , they were as well able to speake , I trow , as Pope Innocent , and the priests of Lateran .

But though nothing else be commendable in this Lateran deuise , yet may we see by it , that it was deuised onely for the Latine Church , for [ transubstantiatio ] is Latine , and such Latin as cannot be handsomely expressed in the Greek tongue , and the last session of the Councill of Florence , holden two hundred yeeres after this of Laterane giueth vs to vnderstand that the Greeke Church neuer yeelded to Transubstantiation & touching the vanishing away of the bread , and substitution ; of the body of Christ , me thinkes , when I consider of it , I heare old Nakefield tell how he came to a wild colt that lay fast a sleepe in the field , and being merrily disposed , cut a round hole in the forehead of it , like prima tonsura clericatus , the first shauing of a clearke ; and then blew his horne in the eare of the colt , so as it started vp suddenly and plunged out at that hole , and left his kinne behind him : euen so the Popish priest , finding bread a sleepe vpon the Altar , blowes the horne of consecration in the eare of it , and makes it skip out at some hole or other , and leaue his accidents behind it , marry herein our good Catholickes goe beyond Nakefield , for he would go no further to tel that the colts skin stood still as plumpe as it did before , though the stuffing was run away , but these men makes vs beleeue , that the body of Christ creepes in at the hole the bread went out , and so fils the vacuity of the roome , that the accidents or skinne of the bread remaines still as well stuffed , as it was before , without corrupting , or shrinking , or any alteration in the world ; so as in the Sacrament of their Altar , men shal see round thing : yet nothing is round , a white thing , yet nothing is white , a thicke thing ; yet nothing is thicke ; a heauie thing , yet nothing is heauie ; a lumpe of accidents , yet nothing denominated round , white thicke , heauie , or any thing else by any one of them all , blame me if these men passe not Wakefield by many degrees , they say that after consecration it is the reall body of Christ ; yet if you breake it , you breake not the body of Christ ; if you bite it , you bite not the bodie of Christ ; and which is most absurd , you may eate the bodie of Christ , but you may neither bite , nor crush , nor grind it with your teeth .

All this may be seene in Peter Lumbards Sententious distinctions , Lib. 4. dist. 12. Est ibi vera fractio & partitio , saith he , quae fit in pane , id est , in forma panis , vnde Apostolus ait , panis quem frangimus , quia forma panis ibi frangitur & in partes diuiditur , It is true breaking & parting which is done in the bread , that is to say , in the forme of bread , whereupon the Apostle saith , the bread which we breake , because the forme of bread is there broken and deuided in parts . See the impudencie of these men , that dare say that is not broken , which Paul saith is broken , nay which say , that is broken which cannot be broken ; for to say accidents and shewes are broken and eaten with teeth , is too great frowardnesse ; and this did my friend Peter see well ynough : and therefore he intreats vs not to thinke much of the matter , 1. Cor. 10.16 . saying , Ne mireris vel insultes si accidentia videantur frangi , cum ibi sint sine subiecto , Wonder not , nor insult not , if the accidents seeme there to be broken , seeing they are there without their subiect . Wel , wee are content to pleasure you in so small a matter ; but when you make Saint Paul to say that broken accidents are the communication of the body of Christ ; I wish you had beene better aduised , but howsoeuer you rid your hands of vs , yet Pope Leo the ninth , and Victor his successour , and Pope Nicholas the second , and the rest of their seuerall Councels gathered together at Vercels , Turon , and Rome almost a hundred yeeres before you were borne , or your Sentences written , will not be so easily shifted of : for Leo and Victor condemned Berengarius , and Pope Nicholas at length compelled him violently to recant vnder this forme of words , Ego Berengarius confiteor panem & vinum , quae in altari ponuntur , post consecrationem non solum sacramentum , sed etiam verum corpus & sanguinem Christi esse , & sensualiter , non solum sub sacramento , sed in veritate manibus sacerdotum tractari , & frangi , & fidelium dentibus atteri , I Berengarius doe confesse that the bread and wine which are layd vpon the Altar , are not onely a sacrament , but the very body and blood of Christ , and that they are sensiblie handled by the priests , and broken and torne with the teeth of the faithfull , not onely in sacrament , but in trueth . This is a Popes iniunction sitting in his chaire , president in Councell in a matter of faith and doctrine , which is of irrefragable authoritie in the Popish Church : moreouer , being a publicke confession , it was drawen plainely without gards or welts , and must be vnderstood literally & Grammatically without shifs or sleights , according to the simple purport of the words ; wherefore my good friend Peter , when you presume to say thus , Illa Berengarij verba ita distinguenda sunt , vt sensualiter non modo in sacramento , sed in veritate dicatur corpus Christi tractari manibus sacerdotum , frangi verò & atteri dentibus verè quidem sed in sacramento tantum : Those words of Berengarius are so to be distinguished that the bodie of Christ is said sensibly to be handled by the Priests , not onely in a sacrament but in trueth : but to be broken and torne with teeth , truely indeed , but onely in a sacrament . Your glosse sets the text vpon the racke , & violenlty drawes the members of it a sunder , which are copulatiuely chained together in the text , tractari , & frangi , & fidelium dentibus atteri , distinguenda sunt , quoth he ; alas euery child may see it cannot beare such a distinction , and therefore either suffer your Popes text to stand still in force , or else set downe plainely like honest meaning men , that your Pope and his Councell haue grossely erred .

Howbeit the former part of the Popes words haue most need of a glosse , for when he saith , that bread and wine , after consecration , is not onely a sacrament , but also the true body and blood of Christ , if he meane the accidents ; they can be neither body nor blood , if he meane the substance , that s vanished , Lib. 4. dist. 1● . if he meane substantia mutata in id quod facta est , the substance changed into that which it is made , that is , in carnem & sanguinem Christi : Lib. 4 : dist. 11. Into the bodie and blood of Christ : as Lumbard some where seemeth to tell vs : then is it not both a sacrament , and the true bodie and blood of Christ too , but only one of them , namely id quod facta est , that whereinto it is changed , and here you may smell Transubstantiation , though it were not yet deuised , but it stunke so , that Lumbard himselfe could hardly abide it , Ibid. for thus hee writes , Si quaeritur qualis sit illa conuersio , an formalis , an substantialis vel alterius generis , definire non sufficio , If a man aske what manner of conuersion it is , whether formall , or substantiall , or of some other kind , I am not able to determine it . Which is as much to say as I cannot tell whether the substance of bread be changed into the bodie of Christ , or no , for graunt me this antecedent , substantia panis mutatur , the substance of bread is changed , the conclusion wil follow of necessitie , ergo , est substantialis mutatio , a substantiall change , & so he that tels me that he cannot define whether the change of bread into flesh , and wine into blood be substantiall , tels me withall that he cannot define whether the substance of bread and wine , be changed into the body and blood of Christ .

These be the colours , and shewes , and accidents that haue bewitched a great part of the world , and these be the glosses and interpretations that haue caused men to runne mad , and at length to sleepe in their owne excrements , but if you looke into the ages before Berengarius , you shall find such as did write openly against these Popish accidents , and formes without subiect , and against all vntoward glosses , in defence of the sacramentarie heresie , as heretickes now call it , without all controlement or contradiction , which is a maine euidence to perswade , that these reall conuersions and transmutations , which be defended so stoutly and peremptorily in Poperie , are not Catholicke , but hereticall . Iohn Scotus a learned man , venerable Beds scholler taught the same doctrine wee hold at this day , Iohan. Scotus almost two hundred yeeres before Berengarius , so did Bertram Bertram . a famous man in his time , as appeareth by his booke , De corpore & sanguine Dei , written at the request of Charles the Great , and Doctor Tonstall witnesseth , Lib. 1. de Sacr. Euchar. that before Transubstantiation was concluded in the Counsell of Lateran , it was lawfull for euerie man freely to thinke of it as he thought good ; and if this euidence be not stronge inough to carrie away the matter ; then would I faine learne , how they dare stand against Pope Gelasius , that tels them plainely , that the substance and nature of bread and wine remaineth still , Gelas . contr. Eutych . Non desinit esse substantia panis & natura vini , There ceaseth not to bee the substance of bread and nature of wine . They tell vs verie demurely , that by vertue of Christs prayer , Luk. 22 , 32. the Popes faith cannot faile , and that hee is to confirme his brethren : yet herein they make Gelasius faith to faile , and vtterly refuse to bee confirmed by him , yet was it not Gelasius owne priuate opinion , De Sacram. li. 4. cap. 4. Dialog. 1 , & 2 Ambrose saith of the consecrated bread and wine : Sunt quae erant , & in aliud commutantur , They are the same they were , and are changed into another thing . Theodoret , Signa mystica post sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua , manent enim in priori substantia , & figura & forma , The mysticall signes after sanctification , do not depart from their owne nature , for they remaine in their former substance , figure and forme . Chrysostome , Ad Caesarium . in Math. hom. 15. Panis sanctificatus dignus est dominici corporis appellatione , etsi natura panis in illo remanserit , The sanctified bread is worthy the name of the Lords bodie , although the nature of bread remaine in it . Origen , Ille cibus qui sanctificatur per verbum Dei , & per obsecrationem , iuxta id quod habet materiale , in ventrem abit , & in secessum encitur , That meat which is sanctified by the word of God , and by prayer , according to that which is materiall in it , goeth into the bellie , and is cast out into the draught . And if all these authorities be reiected , yee shall they neuer bee able to auoide the words of our Sauiour Christ , who after the ministration of the Sacrament in both kindes , concludeth after this maner , [ I say vnto you , Math. 26 , 29. Mark . 14 , 25. I will drinke no more of this fruit of the vine , till I drinke it new in the Kingdome of God , ] vnlesse they can make men beleeue , that blood may be the fruit of a Vine .

Let vs now returne to the examination of the ancient Father , which our Papist imagineth to bee raysed from the dead . What if hee should say , saith he , that the verie bodie of Christ is present in the Sacrament in forme of bread ? Many then , ( say I ) hee should lye , for Chrysostome saith , In oper. imper. in Math. hom. 11. In vasis sanctificatis non est ipsum corpus Christi , sed mysterium corporis eius continetur , In the sanctified vessels is contained not the verie bodie of Christ , but the mysterie of his bodie . But forasmuch as it is heere confessed , that if this Doctor raised from the dead should answere , that the bread is called the bodie of Christ in a figuratiue sense , and that in Sacraments the signe is many times called by the name of the thing signified , he doth cleerely in so answering , determine the controuersie on the Protestants side : what should wee labour further , it being too too manifest , that the Fathers doe answere so in their Bookes extant at this day , and that in as plaine manner as can be wished . Qui seipsum vitem appellauit , Dialog 1. ibid. saith Theodoret. Ille Symbola & signa quae videntur , appellatione corporis & sanguinis honorauit , Hee that called himselfe the vine , did honor the signes which are seene with the name of his bodie , and blood . And againe , Seruator noster commutauit nomina , & corpori quidem symboli nomen de dit , symbolo verò nomen corporis , Our Sauiour changed the names , and gaue to the bodie the name of the symbole , and to the symbole the name of the bodie . Chrysostome , Ad Caesar . Monach . ad Bonis . Epist. 23. Contr. Adim . cap. 12. Panis sanctificatus dignus est dominici corporis appellatione , The sanctified bread is dignified with the name of Christs bodie . Austine , Sacramenta plerunque rerum ipsarum nomina accipiunt , Sacraments doe often take the names of the things themselues . And againe , Non dubitauit Dominus dicere , Contr. Marcion . lib. 4. In 1. Cor. 11. De his qui init . myst . cap. vlt. hoc est corpus meum , cum daret signum corporis sui , The Lord did not sticke to say , this is my bodie , when hee gaue the signe of his bodie . And againe , facinus vel flagitium videtur inbere , figura ergo est praecipiens passioni domini esse communicādū , & suauiter atque vtiliter recondendum in memoria , quod pro nobis caro eius crucifixa & vulnerata sit , He seemeth to command a heinous or horrible wickednes , therfore it is a figure instructing vs to communicate of the passion of the Lord , and pleasantly and profitably to keepe in memorie , that his flesh was crucified and wounded for vs . Tertullian , Hoc est corpus meum , hoc est , figura corporis mei , This is my bodie , that is to say , this is a figure of my bodie . Ambrose , Quia morte domini liberati sumus , huiusrei memores in edendo & potando , carnem & sanguinem , quae pro nobis oblata sunt , significamus , Because wee are deliuered by the death of the Lord , being mindefull thereof in eating and drinking , we doe signifie his flesh and his blood which were offered for vs . And againe , Post consecrationem corpus Christi significatur , After consecration the bodie of Christ is signified . Such places as these , be so common in the writings of the ancient Fathers , that it is vtterly needlesse to rehearse any more of them . Thus is your Papist preuented , for our cause , you see , is cleerely determined . Yet notwithstanding it is pittie the poore mans tale should not be heard , if this Doctor ( sayth he ) should answere that God is omnipotent , and able to doe what he will , that he was able to make heauen and earth , & to doe great wonders and miracles in Aegipt , were not the matter cleerely determined on the Papists side ? No verily were it not , neither would any man euer thinke so , if he knew the vertue and power of a Sacrament . Pope Leo , speaking of the water in baptisme , though it be not transubstantiate , saith thus , Christus dedit aquae , quod dedit matri , De Natiuit . serm. 4. virtus enim altissimi , & obumbratio spiritus sancti , quae fecit vt Maria pareret saluatorem , eadem fecit vtregeneraret vnda credentem , Christ gaue that to the water which he gaue to his mother , for the power of the most high , and the ouershadowing of the holy spirite , which caused Marie to bring foorth the Sauiour , made the water to regenerate a beleeuer . So Austine , Cont liter . pet tan . lib. 3. cap. 49. Nec iam baptizare cessauit Dominus , sed adhuc id agit non ministerio corporis , sed inuisibili opere maiestatis , Neither hath the Lord now ceased to baptize , but he doth it still , not by the ministerie of his bodie , but by the inuisible worke of his maiestie . So Chrysostome , Angeli qui adfuerunt ( in baptismo ) iam inenarrabilis operis modum non possunt enarrare , adfuerunt tantum & viderunt , In Ioh. ho. 24. nihil tamen operati sunt , sed pater tantum & filius , & spiritus sanctus . The Angels which were present in baptisme , were not able to declare the manner of that vnspeakable worke , onely they were present and beheld , but wrought nothing , but the father onely , and the Sonne , and holy spirite . This verie power of the most high , and ouershadowing of the holy Ghost , this verie worke of the Maiestie of God , is it , and onely it , that maketh these outward elements , Rom. 4.11 . Eph. 4 , 15 , 16. Ephe. 5 , 30. seales of the righteousnesse of faith , and effectuall signes and meanes of our regeneration , and growing vp into him which is the head , euen Christ ; so as we be made , flesh of his flesh , and bone of his bones , Immortalitatis alimonia datur à communibus cibis differens , Cypr. de caena domini . corporalis substantiae retinens speciem , sed virtutis diuinae inuisibili efficientia probans adesse praesentiam , A food of immortality is giuen differing from common meats , retaining the forme of a bodily substance , but proouing that a diuine power is present , by the inuisible efficacie of it . You see now , I trow , that Gods omnipotencie , hath somewhat else to doe , than to transubstantiate , bread and wine , and to vphold emptie accidents that haue no subiect .

And touching the words of Saint Ambrose , which bee counted so pregnant for transubstantiation , as we are here willed to read them in his Booke , De ijs qui initiantur mysterijs : So you may read them obiected by Steph. Gardiner , and Chedsey , and so answered by Peter Martyr , that few Papists or none at al from that day to this euer durst propound them . Ambrose doth not say , that the substance of bread and wine is abolished , for he flatly auoucheth the contrarie , when he saith , sunt quae erant , they are the same they were ; but that the nature of them is changed ; that whereas before they were common creatures and prophane by nature ; now by consecration , they be holy signes , such as doe not onely represent , but exhibite the bodie and blood of Christ to the faithfull receiuer , and bee effectuall and powerfull instruments , whereby life and immortalitie is conuayed into vs , and this exposition doth Ambrose himselfe confirme , where he saith , toward the end of the Chapter , that this is a Sacrament of the true flesh of Christ , and that after consecration the bodie of Christ is signified . Nowe to make light of so wonderfull a change , which passeth the capacitie of Angels ( as Chrysostome saith ) and to make it inferiour to the wonders of Aegypt , whereof most were done by sorcerers , as well as by Moses , argueth an vnderstanding darkened , with deepe ignorance , and too much addicted to Popish deuises . I could adde that this place of Ambrose , is obiected also by Harding , and answered by Bishop Iuell , Art. 10 , diuis. 3. and that this Booke is thought by many wise and learned men to bee falsely fathered vpon Ambrose , but this that I haue sayd alreadie is sufficient to beat downe the fond bragges of our Papist , and to shew him cleerely , that Ambrose is wrested long agoe out of Gardiner , Tresham , Chedsey , and Hardings hands , who were farre better able to hold him , than our wandring Papists be at this day ; and therefore this is none of those inanswerable proofes he hath taken vpon him to alleage , and Saint Ambroses Faith or Opinion in this point , is not yet found to be Papisticall .

The Dialogue . Sectio XVI .

EPiphanius ; This ancient Father , after a large discourse made for the Catholicke exposition of diuers places of Scripture , peruerted by Arius and other Heretickes , who turned all things contrary to their owne reason , and vnderstanding into Allegories , and figuratiue spéeches , concludeth that a Christian must beléeue many things beyond the comprehension of humane reason , for proofe hereof , he sheweth that we must beléeue that man was made according to the Image of God , because it is the word of God , and not to turne it into an allegoricall sense , because we cannot comprehend what it is , wherein this similitude doth consist , which is neither in the bodie , nor in the soule , nor in vertue , nor in baptisme . Then he procéedeth vnto another like instance , Et quot sunt quae similia sunt saith he , videmus enim quòd accepit saluator in manus suas veluti euangelium habet , quod surrexit in coena & accepit hac & vbi gratias egisset dixit hoc meum est , hoc , & hoc , & videmus quòd non aequale est , neque simile , non imagini in carne , non inuisibili deitati , non lineamentis membrorum , hoc enim est rotunda figurae , & insensibile quantum ad potentiam , & voluit , per gratiam , dicere , hoc meum est , hoc , & hoc , & nemo non fidem habet sermoni , qui enim non credit esse ipsum verum sicut dixit , is excidit à gratia & salute . a a this is a very homely translation looke the answere . And how many like examples are there ? saith he , for we see that our Sauiour did take into his handes , as it is in the Gospell , that hée rose vp at supper ; and when he had giuen thankes , he sayd , this is my bodie , and so forth , and we see that it is not equall , nor like vnto a fleshly bodie , nor vnto the inuisible deitie , neither hath it the lineaments of the members of a bodie , for that is of a round figure , and impossible to bée discerned of vs , yet it pleased him to say , through grace ; this is my bodie , and so forth ; and there is no man which beléeueth it not , for who so beléeueth not that it is he , according as he hath said , is fallen away from grace & saluation . Thus farre this ancient Father , who b b So did many an hereticke and scismaticke , as well as Epipharius . liued in Palestine 1200. yéeres ago : out of which words , being considered with the scope of the discourse going before , and following after from the words : Maxima me subijt admiratio , &c. vnto these words , & fabula est de caetero ipsa veritas , & omnia allegoricè dicuntur , We may collect diuers good Lessons to the purpose in hand ; first , that a Catholicke man must beléeue many places of Scripture to be c c So many be true in a figuratiue sense , and so is this for one . true , being taken in the literall sense , although it be aboue the comprehension of humane reason : Secondly , that in the place of Scripture last rehearsed , there is something , beyond the comprehension of mans reason , which notwithstanding must be beléeued , and not turned into an allegorie d d That is , such a figuratiue sense , as is allegoricall . For Epiphanius here speakes onely against allegories , and no other figure . or figuratiue sense , which I do ground vpon these words , Et quot sunt quae similia sunt ? and how many like examples may we find ? If I do inferre or alleage any thing amisse , reprooue me : if not , let vs procéed , Libro Anacoratus circa medium . Pro. Epiphanius in that place inueigheth against Arius , and Origen , as well for interpreting things literally , which are to be vnderstood figuratiuely , as he doth for interpreting things figuratiuely , which are to be vnderstood literally : and therefore if you doe interpret these words , [ this is my bodie ] literally , whereas it is to bee vnderstood figuratiuely he inueigheth against you , and not against mee . Pap. True it is , that Epiphanius doth reprooue as well the literall as the figuratiue interpretation , but who so shall read the discourse with indifferencie shall finde , that the examples of the blessed Sacrament ; and of the similitude betwéene man and the Image of God , are produced and vrged onely to prooue that many places must be vnderstood literally , and not turned into allegories and e e Epiphanius speakes not here against any other figures , but allogories . figures , because we cannot comprehend how they can be true in the literall signification ; for first he inueigheth against Origen , for interpreting many things , that are spoken in the scriptures concerning paradise , which ought to be vnderstood literally , into an allegorical interpretation , then hee produceth those two examples to prooue that many thinges in scripture must be f f And not turned into allegories , but other figures cannot be auoided , no not in the Sacrament . beléeued , although we be not able to comprehend how they can be true , and so returneth to the prosecution of his argument against Origen , concerning his deniall of a terrestriall Paradise , and his turning of all things thereof spoken into allegories : but this I referre to the censure of the iudiciall Reader , and will procéede in that you haue not excepted against , to wit , that there is something in the blessed sacrament which we must beleue although it be incomprehensible , desiring to learn of you , whether it bée a thing incomprehensible , that the bread should bee a figure of Christs bodie , or what other incomprehensible matter you doe find therein ? Pro. The inuisible operation of the holy Ghost in the Sacrament , is a thing incomprehensible . Pa. You must not so escape , for the thing that this Father noteth to be incomprehensible , is , that whereas our Sauiour sayd , it is his bodie , which must be g g It is true , as the truth meant it . true , because the truth hath spoken it , yet it is not like vnto a naturall bodie , but of a round forme , &c. Now I will learne of you , if it be not Christs true bodie , but a figure and signification thereof , what wonder h h But it is incomprehensible , how it should be so powerfull a figure . or incomprehensible matter is there , that the Sacrament ( being a figure of Christs bodie ) should neuerthelesse be of a round forme , and not like vnto a naturall bodie .

The Answere .

ANother ancient Father , is brought to speake for transubstantiation , whether he will or no , and his testimonie is so tediously dilated with multitude of words , and false translations , and blinde lessons , that it wearieth me to looke them ouer , yet may I not suffer such loquacitie to triumph against the truth . Ambrose is raised , as it were from the dead , leading Saint Austine in a string , and carrying the vniuersall Church vpon his backe , as though his words had neuer been nor could be answered , and this facing may become a Papist reasonably well , but when he brings in Ephanius with a wrong translation to second the matter , whose testimonie hath ben often answered , and the edge & point of it turned long agoe to the very throte and bowels of transubstantiation : I may truely say of him , as the wise man doth of vnaduised pratlers ; Prou. 29.20 . & Cap. 26.12 . namely , that there is more hope of a foole than of him . Epiphanius saith , Et accepit haec , And hee tooke these ; speaking plurally of many round cakes , or peeces of bread , which after hee cals , hoc , & hoc , this , and this , more distinctlyt : his our translator cleane omitteth , and englisheth hoc est meum , hoc , & hoc , this is mine , and this , and this ; this is my bodie , and so forth . Againe , hoc est rotundae figurae , & insensibile quantum ad potentiam , this is of a round figure & insensible , he translateth , that is of a round figure , and impossible to be discerned of vs . And againe , qui non credit esse ipsum verum , hee that beleeueth not that it is true : Hee translateth thus ; who so beleeueth not that it is hee , whereas ipsum verum agreeth grammatically with sermonem immediately before .

These forgeries bee verie materiall , for when Epiphanius saith , hoc meum est , hoc , & hoc , as of three round cakes , wherof euerie one seuerally and separately is sayd to bee the bodie of Christ ; verily , we must either admit a new trinitie in vnitie , whereof euerie one seuerally is the bodie of Christ , and yet all three but one bodie , or else we cannot hold transubstantiation , it will not be so hard a matter to exemplifie the mysterie of the Trinitie , which is beyond all example , if hoc , hoc , & hoc , be a trinitie in vnitie . Secondly , when Epiphanius saith , that the round cake is without sense , and powerlesse , for so wee are taught to translate it by opposition following , in these words , Dominum verò nostrum nouimus totum sensum , totum sensitiuum , &c. Wee know that our Lord is all sense , and all sensitiue . We see plainely that it cannot be sayd of the bodie of Christ simply and absolutely , vnlesse we imagine the bodie of Christ to be senselesse and powerlesse . Lastly , when Epiphanius saith , that wee must beleeue the words of Christ to be true , as hee spake them ; we may not thinke that he vnderstood by ipsum verum , verie Christ himselfe , bodie , blood , and all , as this man translateth in fauor of the popish single sacrilegious communion , for that s not sicut dixit , as any man may easily perceiue . The Counsell of Trent decreeth thus ; Sess. 13. cap. 3. Si quis negauerit totum & integrum Christum , & omnium gratiarum fontem & authorem sub vna panis specie sumi , anathema sit . If any man shall denie that whole Christ , and the author and fountaine of all graces is contained vnder the onely forme of bread , let him be accursed . But I beseech you , tell vs by what wordes this strange consecration is made ? hoc est corpus meum , makes but the bodie that is broken , and bloud is not broken , but shed . Againe , hic est sanguis meus , makes but the blood that is shed , and the bodie is not shed , but broken . Verily our Sauiour himselfe when he gaue bread , gaue his bodie , and not blood , for that he gaue after supper , when he took the cup , Luk. 22 , 20. and if he gaue integrum Christum , whole Christ , when he gaue bread , then he gaue nothing , when he gaue the cup , and therefore these good fellowes had need take heede they inuolue not the Sonne of God himselfe within their , 1. Cor. 12 , 3. Anathema sit , for no man speaking by the spirite of God calleth Iesus execrable . In decret pontiff . dist. 2. cap. Comper . No , no , they that diuide this holy mysterie bee Sacrilegi , saith Pope Gelasius , and so by good consequent this Anathema sit , must returne home , and fall vpon their owne bald pates that made it .

But to leaue these fashoods , and to giue you the true meaning of this ancient Father , in a summary Compendium , wee must beleeue that bread in the Lords supper , is the bodie of Christ , not simply , but in such a figure as taketh not away the truth of the Scripture , as we also beleeue man to be after a true vnderstanding , Gent. 1.26 , 27 the Image of God , for as man is after a sort the Image of God , as the word of God testifieth , though hee be not throughly so , neither in regard of bodie , nor soule , nor minde , nor baptisme , nor vertuous liuing , not any other euident and liuely similitude wee see him to haue with God , so doe wee beleeue that the bread which is of a round figure , and without sense and feeling , is after a true manner and meaning the bodie of Christ , as the wordes of Christ teach vs , though it be not so by substance or apparant proportion and portraiture of bodily members . Wherefore though bread by nature be but a prophane common element appointed of God to feede our bodies : yet ( by grace ) it pleaseth the Lord to make it , and to call it his bodie , that is a Sacrament of his bodie , whereby , as by an effectuall instrument , the faithfull receiuers are spiritually fed and nourished to eternall life .

This I take to be Epiphanius meaning , whereunto I will adde a few lessons for more perspicuitie , and for the ouerthwarting of those two lessons , which our Papist heere giueth vs . Frst Epiphanius being learned and industrious , knew well inough wherein the Image of God consisted , Ephes. 4 , 24. Coloss. 3 , 10. for Paul teacheth it plainely in his Epistles to the Ephesians and Colossians . Secondly , this Image is so defaced and ouershadowed in the posteritie of Adam , that nothing in man or about man , seemeth answerable or agreeable vnto it . Thirdly , notwithstanding this obscuritie , wee must beleeue the truth of Gods word , that man is created after the Image of God , and not ouerthrow that truth by allegoricall subtilties . Fourthly , wee haue the like example in the wordes of Christ at his last supper ; namely , this bread is my bodie , which Epiphanius knew to be spoken per gratiam , by grace ; whereby that common element was aduanced supernaturally and mystically ; yet truely to haue the name of the bodie of Christ , whereof it was a Sacrament . Fiftly , there is no apparant equalitie , or likelyhood , or outward sensible similitude or proportion of members , why bread should be so called . Lastly , notwithstanding this difficultie , we must beleeue that by bread , is meant true bread , and by bodie , the true bodie of Christ , and that the one is sayd of the other , figuratiuely indeed , because they be dispanita , yet truly as our Sauiour spake , and not flye to origenicall allegories , which ouerthrowe the hystoricall truth of Gods holy word , and turne it into fables .

These lessons ( I trow ) be plaine inough , yet I doubt our Papist will not think his knot is yet loosed ; there is nothing ( saith hee ) in the Sacrament that is incomprehensible , but Epiphanius saith not so , though he say it , neither can it bee inferred , out of quot sunt & similia sunt , for the Image of God was comprehensible in Adam , though it be defaced in vs , and things may be , Similia secundum magis & minus , but not to multiply quarrels , let vs graunt that he saith to bee true , what then ? Marrie then I would learne ( saith hee ) if it bee not Christs true bodie really present , but a figure therof , what wonder or incomprehensible matrer is there , here is a little prety It , three times repeated in the knitting of this knot , It , is his bodie , It is not like to a naturall bodie , and if it be not Christs bodie , &c. I beseech you what meanes this man by his It ? is [ It ] something , or is [ It ] nothing , or what is [ It ? ] Epiphanius saith , It , is of a round forme : therefore It , is not accidens , for rotundum is not accidens , but rotunditas ; if It be a substance , then It must bee either the bodie of Christ , and so the bodie of Christ is of a round forme , or else it must bee bread , and so indeed all the three Euangelists are bold to call It , Math. 26 , 26. Mark . 14 , 22. Luk. 22 , 19. 1. Cor. 10 , 16.17 . 1. Cor. 11 , 23 , 26 , 27 , 28. and so is the Apostle Paul twise in one Chapter , and foure times in another , and hee himselfe for all this mincing of the mattter , comes downe in the end out of the clouds , and confesseth the Sacrament to be of a round forme , whereof it followeth , that it is neither an accident , nor the reall substance of Christs bodie , but bread as the Scripture cals it . Now , for the vnloosing of his knot , I say , that it is incomprehensible , howe a round peece of bread should bee such a figure , as is worthy to bee called the bodie of Christ , and so to exhibite and conuey the graces and merites of Christs passion into vs , that our sinnes are remitted , our faith encreased , and wee incorporate , and made members of his bodie , of his flesh , and of his bones . Let him shew me , that this is not farre beyond the comprehension of mans reason , and I will giue him his asking .

But for a full cleering of Epiphanius , it is to bee remembred that Manes and his disciples , liuing vpon the sweat of other mens browes , and supposing all things to haue life & soule , as man had , were wont to consecrate the bread and wine , that was giuen them to fill their slowe bellies withall , after this sort , Ego non seminauite , non messui te , non molui , in clibanum non misi , alius obtulit & comedi , innoxius sum , &c. I sowed thee not , I reape thee not , I ground thee not , I baked thee not , another offered it , and I did eate , I am innocent , &c. Wherunto Epiphanius answereth , ipsi non recidunt botrum , sed edunt botrum , Haeres. 66. circa medium . vtrum grauius est ? etenim vindemians semel recidit botrum , qui vero comedit , per dentes sectores ac manducatores singula grana edomat , & per hoc magis multipliciter torquet ac secat , & non amplius similis erit , ei qui semel secuit , is qui manducauit & consumpsit , They cut not the bunch of grapes , but they eat it , which is greater ? the Grape-gatherer did once cut the vine , but he that eateth it doth cut and grinde with his teeth all the graces , and in the respect he doth torment it much more , and hee that hath eaten and consumed it , is no longer like to him that onely once cut it . You heare what Epiphanius saith for confutation of the Manichies . Now consider how that he saith can possibly be good , if the liuing sensitiue bodie of Christ , blood , and all be eaten of the Catholickes ; might not the Manichies then reply , that they were more to be borne withall , that were compelled by hunger and thirst to eat and drinke liuing things of meane regard , crying for griefe , Ego non seminaui te ; non messui , non molui , &c , Than Epiphanius and his Catholickes that presumed to eat the liuing flesh of Christ , and to drinke his blood ? verily Epiphanius being learned & wise , would not haue left his reason in this case wide open without either fence or shelter against the aduersarie , if the reall presence and manducation of the bodie and blood of Christ , had been catholickely beleeued in his time . Peter in the Acts , when a voice from heauen commanded him to kil and eat , though he were hungry , and in a traunce , yet he forgat not the law of God , but answered , [ God forbid Lord , for nothing polluted , or vncleane hath euer entred into my mouth , ] and shall wee thinke , that the same Peter , when our Sauiour saith [ take , Act. 10 , 10. &c. Et cap. 11 5 , &c. eat , this is my bodie , ] and [ take , drinke , this is my blood : ] would neuer make any question , neither he , nor any of his fellow Apostles , against the eating of mans flesh , and drinking mans blood , if they had vnderstood the wordes of Christ after the popish fashion ? Euen so , hee that thinketh that Epiphanius , holding the reall eating and drinking of the bodie and blood of Christ ; would dispute , so loosely as he doth , against the Manichies : must needs thinke withall that his wits were in a deeper traunce than Saint Peters , and so fitter to gather wooll , than to confute heretickes .

The Dialogue . Sectio XVII .

I Will leaue this knot for you to vnloose at better leasure , and assay you with another argument to prooue the a a This will you neuer prooue while you liue , nor your child after you . consent of all ancient Fathers , and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church in this doctrine of transubstantiation : but first , I will set downe certaine places out of the Fathers whereon to ground mine argument , although I haue alreadie vsed the same places for the proofe of prayer for the dead . This Custome saith b b These places are answered all of them . Saint Austine , the vniuersall Church doth obserue ( being deliuered by tradition from the Elders , ) that whereas at the time of the Sacrifices , commemoration is made of all soules departed in the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ , they should be prayed for , and that the sacrifice also should be offered for them , De verb. Apost. Sermone 32. You shall also finde , that there was a Sacrifice offered for the quicke and dead , in Saint Ambrose his first prayer Praeparans ad missam , and in Tertullians Booke de Monogamia about the middest of the Booke , the place beginneth , dic mihi soror in pace , &c. Hereby it is manifest , that c c How many ages were they , I pray you ? in all these ages , the Church did d d That is to say , Signum & repraesentationem sacrificij , Aug. de ciuit . dei lib. 10. cap. 15 offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead , which being agréed vpon betwéen vs , I desire to know of you , whether that sacrifice which was offered , was the sacrifice of the Masse ( which implyeth transubstantiation , ) the sacrifice of the Protestats communion , the sacrifice of prayer , or the sacrifice of thankesgiuing ? for if it was none of the thrée last , it must néedes bee the sacrifice of the Masse , and so is transubstantiation prooued . Pro. e e And why not the Protestants communion ? It might bee either prayer , or thankesgiuing , for both are often times in the Scriptures called by the name of a Sacrifice . Pap. Thus doe I prooue , that it was neither : and first , that it was not prayer , it is manifest by the place of S. Austine before cyted , De verb. Apost. Serm. 32. where he maketh mention of the prayers , that the Church made for the dead , and of the Sacrifice which it vsed to offer for them , as of two distinct things , for there he saith that at the time of the Sacrifice , prayers were made for the dead , & that the sacrifice was also offered for them , That it was not the Sacrifice of thankesgiuing , it appeareth likewise by the same Doctor , by the place by me aboue cited out of his Enchiridion , where he sayth , Neque negandum est defunctorum animas pietate suorum viuentium relouari , cum pro eis sacrificium redemptoris offertur , &c. Neither must we denie that the soules of the dead are releeued by the charitie of their liuing friends , when as the sacrifice of our Redéemer is offered for them : the sacrifice therefore , which the Church did offer , was the sacrifice of our redéemer , and it was offered that the dead might be releeued , how can you call the sacrifice of thankesgiuing the sacrifice of our redéemer ? or how can you say , that the church did offer the sacrifice of thankesgiuing , that the soules of the dead might be reléeued ? for thankesgiuing is for benefits receiued , and not for benefits to be receiued : it remaineth therfore , that this sacrifice of the church was f f This is a worthy disputer , that concludes for our communion , as well as his owne Masse . either the Protestants communion , or else that it was the sacrifice of the Masse , and consequently that the bodie of Christ is really in the Sacrament .

The Answere .

THe knot he talks of , was so loosely tyed , that it was no masterie to vndoe it , but now we shall haue such an argument as shall prooue vnto vs the consent of all ancient Fathers , and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church for transubstantiation , these be great words ; yet notwithstanding , when he grounds this doughty argument vpon Austine , Ambrose , and Tertullian , concluding thereof , that in all these ages the church did offer a sacrifice for the quicke and the dead , I can take them for no better than the words of a man beside himselfe ; he knew well inough , that Ambrose and Austine were both of an age , for he hath told vs once or twise , that the one conuerted the other , and if he knew not that the annuall offerings of a widow woman vpon the day of her husbands death , enioyned her by Tertullian in these wordes , Et offerat annuis diebus dormitionis eius , was not the sacrifice of the Masse , I must needes thinke his head was out of temper , if these three Fathers had written in three seuerall ages , it had been the least number that the word [ all ] could bee spoken of , Aristot . de caelo lib. 1. cap. 1. for we call two [ both , ] and not all , and therefore by what wit or common sense , he could say all these ages of one age , or two at the most , if Tertullian had not been mistaken , I cannot possibly imagine ; but for answere to these Fathers , Contr. Collyr . haeres. 79. Epiphanius saith truely , Deo abaeterno nullatenus mulier sacrificauit , A woman did neuer in any case offer any sacrifice to God : And againe , Nusquam mulier sacrificauit , aut sacerdotio functa est , A woman neuer sacrificed , nor exercised the priestly office . Dialog. cum Tryphon . Whereunto adde out of Iustine Martyr , that God receiueth no sacrifice , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , but onely of his Priests , whereof it followeth , that the annuall oblation that Tertullian speakes of , was no sacrifice , vnlesse you will say , Epiph. haeres. 49. that Tertullian was a Priscillianist or Artotyrite , that allowed of Romane Priests and women Bishops to offer bread and cheese in Sacrifice to the Lord .

And touching Ambrose , I shewed before , that hee offered not the verie bodie of Christ , which is receiued of merite , not of mercie , how irreuerently soeuer it be handled , but celebrated the communion of the bodie and blood of Christ , ioyned with prayer and thankesgiuing ; so nowe Austine is left alone , of whome I may say , as our Papist taught me a while agoe ; namely , that it is not probable , that Saint Ambrose was a Protestant in this opinion , and Saint Austine ( whome hee conuerted to the Christian faith ) a Papist ; howbeit , you shall bee further instructed out of Lumbard , Lib. 4. dist. 12 that the ancient Fathers doe not vse the word Sacrifice , and immolation in proper sense , these be his words , Vocatur sacrificium & oblatio , quia memoria est & representatio veri sacrificij , & sanctae oblationis factae in Ara crucis , It is called a sacrifice and an offering , because it is a remembrance and representation of the true sacrifice , and holy offering made vpon the altar of the crosse . And a little after , Quotidié immolatur in sacramento , Hierar . cap. 3. quia in Sacramento recordatio , fit illius quod factum est semel , We sacrifice dayly in the Sacrament , because in the Sacrament there is a remembrance of that which was once done , or of that Sacrifice which was once made . Dyenis , in his Hierarchy , calleth it , De demonst. si. 1. cap. 10. Ad Hebr. hom. 17. De ciuit . Dei . lib. 20. cap. 15. 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 a figuratiue sacrifice , and Eusebius , memoriam magni sacrificij , a remembrance of the great sacrifice , and Chrysostome , recordationem sacrificij , a remembrance of the sacrifice , and Austine himselfe , signum & representationem sacrificij , a signe of representation of the sacrifice : wherefore we can agree with your papist no farther in this point , than to confesse that the ancient fathers , called the sacrifice of the body & blood of Christ improperly [ a sacrifice ] because it is a memorial and representation of that one all sufficient , vniterable , euerlasting sacrifice , which our Sauiour , the last true Priest that euer liued or shall liue vpon the earth , offered to God vpon the Altar of the crosse , and so the ground , whereupon this popish argument is builded , is sandy and deceitfull .

Now let me shew you that prayers , and supplications , and prayse , and thankesgiuing are the onely true sacrifices of the new testament , and that the ancient Christians of the Primitiue Church neuer knew or hard of any other ; to this purpose therefore you must remember that God receiueth no sacrifice but at the hands of a Priest , for so we learned a little before out of Austine Martyr , [ Priests ] we read of none specially so called in Gods holy word , but either Leuiticall , or after the order of Melchizedech , Heb. 7.12.18 . wherof the one gaue place to Christ , the other hath place in Christ , and in Christ onely , for this priesthood is said to be , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Heb. 7.24 . that is , such as passeth not from one to an other successiuely , as did the Priesthood of Aaron , and this is yet further strengthened in that the ministers of Christ hauing so great varietie of names in the new Testament to shew what their office is , and what they haue to doe in Christs Church , are no where named [ priests ] which the holy Ghost , that knew best how to giue fit names , would neuer haue done , if Christ had euer instituted such a kingly priesthood to succeed him , wherefore the Priesthood of Melchisedech figuring onely the euer-standing , & neuer-passing priesthood of Christ , for no other Priesthood can possibly be answerable to the paterne of Melchisedechs priesthood ) it must follow that such as challenge to be Priests after Melchisedechs order , are sacrilegious traytors against Christ , and lay violent hands against his royall prerogatiues .

Neither is this doctrine preiudicall to the sacrifice of prayer and thankesgiuing , which needeth no erection of a speciall priesthood , for as it is a common duetie , so we are all in generall a holy and a kingly priesthood to offer vp spirituall sacrifice acceptable to God through Iesus Christ , 1. Pet. 2.5.9 . & Reuel. 1.6 . and to shew foorth the prayses of him that called vs out of darkenesse into his marueilous light ; so then the sacrifice of prayer and thankesgiuing may euery Christian offer in priuate by himselfe , and publikely by the mouth of Gods minister , other sacrifice the old fathers knew none ; Iustine Martyr saith , In dial . cum Triphone . that supplications and giuing of thankes , are the onely perfect and acceptable sacrifices to God , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , for these onely Christians haue learned to offer , where the force of the preposition 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 for 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 is to be obserued , Vide Bez. Annot. in Math. 1.20 . which teacheth vs , that these Christians of these times had receiued this only kind of sacrificing , and no other , of the fathers and teachers that were before them . Ad Scapulam . Againe , Tertullian saith , Sacrificamus pro salute imperatoris , sed Deo nostro & ipsius , sed quomodo praecepit deus pura prece , The dead must be prayed for , when they are remembred at the sacrifice in their order , and it must be declared that it is offered also for them . In which words after he had sayd generally , we sacrifice for the health of the Emperour : he then restraines this sacrifice , first to the true God , and then secondly to the Christian maner of sacrifycing in pure prayer , as the true God had commanded , teaching vs that God neuer gaue commandement to offer any other sacrifice vnto him ; and if he had , no doubt but the Christians of Carthage and other places in Afrike would haue offered most readily and willingly for the safety of the Emperour .

These two fathers , both in regard of their great antiquitie & plainesse of their testimonie , are of sufficient force to shew that the first Churches neuer knew what the Popist sacrifice of the Masse meant , yea but will you say likewise that they knew not the sacrifice of the Almes , for these two testimonies are as full against the one as the other ; not so , by your leaue , Dulcit . questio . 2. & Enchir. cap. 209. Phil. 4.18 . Mat. 9.13 . & 12. epist. 6.6 . for Almes is contained vnder gratiarum actio , and Austine saith it is gratiarum actio pro valde bonis , and propitiatio too pro non valde malis . Howbeit Almes , though Saint Paul call it a sacrifice , yet needeth it no speciall priesthood to offer it , neither is it an immediate seruice of God , as prayer is , but mediately pleaseth him as a worke of the second table , and therefore our Sauiour saith , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , I will haue mercy and not sacrifice , and so sayd the Prophet Osea long before , opposing sacrifice to the exercise of mercy . Now comes in our Papist crying , thus doe I prooue that the sacrifice , spoken of in the fathers , was neither prayer nor thankesging , and therefore Iustine Martyr and Tertullian had neede to looke to themselues ; well let vs heare these worthie proofes , and consider of them , whether they be strong ynough to outface two fathers of so great antiquitie ; Austine , saith he , maketh mention of the prayers and sacrifices of the Church , Lib. 10. cap. 15 as of two difficult things , ergo , it was not prayer , No , nor sacrifice neither , by your leaue , but a representation of the sacrifice of Christ ; for that s Austines meaning , as himselfe tels you in his booke De ciuitate Dei , and so is the other argument to be answered , where your papist tels vs out of Austine , that the dead are releeued by the sacrifice of our redeemer , whereas thankesgiuing can neither be so called , nor yet relieue soules , because we giue thankes for benefits receiued , not for benefits to be receiued . For Austine knew well ynough that , to speake precisely , there was no sacrifice of our redeemer in his time , nor any time els after the death of Christ , Dyonisius , Eusebiu● Chrysostome , &c. but that which himselfe cals signum & representationem sacrificij , a signe and representation of the sacrifice : and other fathers , a token , a memoriall , a recordation of the sacrifice of Christ : now whether this recording the Lords death till he come , 2 , Cor. 11.26 . doe releeue the soules of the dead , it hath been already disputed .

But to graunt him more then either may bee graunted ; or he can possibly euince , namely , that it is indeed a sacrifice , as it is called , yet may it be said , that it is so , and is called so , not absolutely in it selfe , as it consisteth of dumme and deafe elements ; but in regard of prayer and thankesgiuing , which be inseparably annexed vnto it , otherwise it is not like that Austine would say , that the sacrifice of the Altar , for those that be valde boni , Enchir. ca. 109. & Dulcit . quaest. 2. is thanksgiuing : now if this sacrifice pro valde bonis be thankesgiuing , as Austine faith it is , why may it not be said likewise that the same , sacrifice pro non valde malis , is prayer ? I am sure Austine saith it is propitiatio , which includeth prayer : and heere againe consider how weakely he disputeth , when he saith that thankesgiuing which is for benefits receiued , August . ibid. not for benefits to be receiued , cannot releeue soules &c. For , though it may be sayd , that God rewardeth a thankefull remembrance of benefits receiued , with new blessings : yet Austine writes not any where that the vse of the sacrifice is alwayes to releeue , but sometime to giue thankes , in which regard it is called the Eucharist ; but for as much as Iustine Martyr , and Tertullian testifie , that the Christians in their time did sacrifice not only by thanksgiuing , which is for benefits receiued ; but also by prayer , which is for benefits to be receiued , the edge of this wise dispute is vtterly blunted .

To goe yet a little further , if it should bee graunted him that this sacrament is a sacrifice absolutely in it selfe , yet I hope it cannot releeue soules , nor doe any such feat by it selfe , as it consisteth of dead elements , vnlesse prayers and supplications , and giuing of thankes be annexed vnto it , for he that neither prayeth , nor giueth thankes , be hee priest , or king , Aaron or Melchisedecke , cannot be said to offer this sacrifice : and relieue soules it cannot , vnlesse it be offered . Now then see the vnskilfulnesse of this prating disputer , who teareth into pieces things that be inseparably knit together , and so in this foolish fit , desireth to know whether this sacrifie was the sacrifice of the Masse , the sacrifice of the Protestants communion , the sacrifice of prayer , or the sacrifice of thankesgiuing ; let him shew me that either his Masse , or our communion is said or song without prayer and thankesgiuing , or else let him hold his peace till he haue learned to dispute better . Augustine distinguisheth his sacrifice from prayer and thankesgiuing , but he doth not separate them , and so his meaning must needes be that our prayers and supplications are profitable at all times , but specially then , when the Communion of the bodie and blood of Christ is ministred , and our soules inflamed thereby , and stirred vp to greater deuotion , In Philip hom. 3. and hereunto Chrysostome accordeth , saying , Stante vniuerso populo , manus in caelos extendente , caetuitem sacerdotali , verendoque posito sacrificie : quomodò deum non placaremus pro istis orantes ? The whole people standing , and lifting vp their hands to heauen , as also that companie of the Priests , and the reuerend sacrifice layed before , how should we not appease God when we pray for them ?

This is sufficient to shew that the pricking arguments you speake of , draw no blood , and that they may be answered , sine sanguine & sudore ; yet a knacke or two of Popish knauerie is heere to be discouered , that you may the better see the sleights of these companions , for when he foresaw out answere to Austine like to be as I haue set it downe : hee thought it his best way to falsefie Austines testimonie after this prettie fashion ; Austine saith , that at the time of the sacrifice , prayers were made for the dead , and that the sacrifice was also offered for them , but doth Austine say that the sacrifice was offered , at the time of the sacrifice ? is it credible that Austine spake so foolishly ? no , friend Papist , Austines wordes are these , pro defunctis , cum ad ipsum sacrificium loco suo commemorantur , oretur , ac pro illis quoque id offerri commemoretur , The dead must be prayed for , when they are remembred at the sacrifice in their order , and must be declared that it is offered also for them . That is , when the dead are mentioned in their order at the time of the sacrifice , let them be prayed for , and ( that the people may be stirred vp to pray the more deuoutly ) let it be told them also , that the same sacrifice is offered for them , and for the better explication of his meaning : Austine presently after in the same place ( as Chrysostome in the place before alleaged ) mentioneth prayer , and not the sacrifice , saying , Orationes Deo non inaniter allegantur , Prayers are not directed in vaine to God , whereby inclusiue such prayers are to be vnderstood as were sharpened and set on edge by the celebration of the sacrament .

Againe obserue how your Papist lets slip the Protestants communion through his fingers , and concludes no more but thus , therefore this sacrifice of the Church was either the Protestants communion , or else the sacrifice of the Masse ; well , but is this all he purposed to prooue with his sprinckling arguments ? if this be all , our controuersie will soone be at an end ; and yet he neuer the neerer his transubstantiation . no , no , this is not the daysie which he skipt at ; he must prooue that the sacrifice of the Church , which the ancient fathers speake of , was the sacrifice of the masse , and no other , and that shall he neuer be able to doe till he haue remoued the Protestants Communion , as wel as prayer and thankesgiuing , out of his way . This he could not but know if he had any wit in his head , & therefore what can be sayd else to this , but that the Protestants Communion was too to hot for him han-dle , and that all the wit and learning he had , was not able to out-face it .

The Dialogue . Sectio XVIII .

PRo. I may say vnto you heere as the Auditor in Tusculanes questions sayd vnto Marcus , Spinosiota haec prius vt confitear me cogunt , quàm vt assentiar , your pricking arguments doe rather compell me to graunt , than perswade me to consent ; for although by my silence , I may seeme to graunt ( as not being able to vnloose your Gordions knots ) yet am I so farre from consent , as I was at the beginning of this conference , which bringeth to my remembrance a merry tale I haue heard of a scholler of Oxford , who hauing attained some pretty skill in Sophistry , would needs take vpon him to prooue vnto his father by the rules of Logick , that two chickings which were set vpon the boord in a dish , were three ; the father , although he could not vnfold his sonnes arguments , yet was he so farre from being perswaded by them , as I am now from being perswaded by yours : and for an infallible demonstration that he could not be deceiued in his opinion , he tooke vnto himselfe the two chickins , leauing the third ( which lay a a As the bodie of Christ doth in the pix , for foolish Papists to feed one . inuisibly in the emptie dish ) for the Logician to feede vpon : euen so although you haue prooued your assertions by such arguments as I am b b It is not so hard a matter to doe . not able to answere , and prooued the same by the testimonie of such reuerend witnesses , as I cannot except against : yet cannot I beleeue the same , because all my sences together with infinite absurdities , and impossibilities that would follow thereon , doe infallibly demonstrate the contrarie , doe not all our senses tell vs , that Christs naturall bodie is not in the sacrament ? doth not our reason and vnderstandin teach vs that a natural bodie cannot be in infinite places at the same instant ? and that it is impossible the sacrament , being diuided into a c c This is a greater mysterie than the mysterie of the Trinitie . million of parts , that euery of these parts should be the entire body of Christ ? & yet that al these bodies , are but one & the same body ? can all the arguments and reasons , by you produced and vrged , be more forcible to perswade me to be of your opinion , than these demonstrations to the contrary ?

Pa. It fareth with you in this businesse , much like as with a man that hath lost his way , who the more hée bestirreth himselfe , the further hee is from the end of his iourney , your heresie hath beene pursued and chased through all the doubles & windinges which it can possibly imagine , and is now retyred ( like a crafty foxe ) into the burrow where it was first littered & bredde , which is the iudgement and censure of humane reason , whereunto ( as vnto a supreame iudge ) it doth now appeale from the authoritie of c c Non potest per vllam Scripturam probari . Roffensis contra captiuit : Babiloni : i. It cannot be proued by any scripture . scriptures , fathers , and Councels , and surely this is the very fountaine and seminary of all atheisme & heresye : for if I should labor to instruct an Infidell in the principall points of christian religion , as the resurrection of the very same bodies after they bée consumed to dust & ashes , that the Father is God , the Sonne God , and the holy Ghost God , and yet that they thrée are but one God , without confounding of the persons , that the Sonne is eternall , and yet begotten of his father , that d d I maruell how this can he shewed to be a principall point of christian religion . Christ came in vnto his disciples ( the e e Are the Protestants hereticks for so interpreting ? what if he came in at the window or chimney , or louer hole ? Non dicitur quod intrauit per ianuas clausas , &c vide Durand : lib. 4. dist. 44. q. 6. 1. It is not said that he entered by the doore being shut . doores being shut ) not as the Protestants interpret , the doores opening vnto him , but after a miraculous and supernatural manner , as S. Austine expoundeth it , Tractatu 121. euangelij S. Iohannis , all which is as contrary to the capacitie of humane reason , as the reall presence in the sacrament : if the Infidell in this case should appeale vnto the same iudges , might he not with the same reason , and by the iudgement of the same arbitrators , as well reiect these and many like articles of our christian faith , as you doe the reall presence , if the imperfection of mans vnderstanding be such in the comprehension of the workes of nature , that ( as f f We must needs yeeld , if such authors speake against vs . So is not Gods word , 2. Tim. 3.16 . & Psa. 119.105 Socrates saith ) Hoc solum scimus , quod nihil scimus , this one thing wee doe know , that wee doe know nothing , how great is the imperfection thereof in the comprehension of things supernatural , being so farre remote from our senses and vnderstanding ? the wisedom of man ( as S. Paul saith ) is foolishnesse with God , and therefore a farre incompetent iudge is it to determine of things appertaining to God : from this fountaine sprang first the heresie of Arius , who , not being able to comprehend how the Sonne of God could be begotten , when as there was no time of his begetting , chose rather to rend himselfe from the vnitie of g g That s not the popish church . Belike the catholicke church can vnderstand things that be aboue vnderstanding without the scriptures helpe . the catholicke Church , and to wrest the Scriptures to his owne capacitie , than to submit his owne vnderstanding ( in things aboue vnderstanding ) vnto the censure of the Catholicke Church , the sure rocke and pillar of trueth ; and whosoeuer he be , that ( in matters of his faith ) consulteth with flesh and blood , measuring the same by rule of humane reason , must needs be an hereticke , if not an atheist ; if you demaund how the body of Christ is in the Sacrament , I answere , I h h No , nor any man els liuing . cannot tell , because it is ineffable , neither can I conceiue it , because it is incomprehensible ; if you doe alleage impossibilitie , I answere that i i So answered Praxeas the hereticke , vide Tertul. nothing is to God impossible ; if you require arguments of credibilitie , you haue as many and as great as for any one article of our christian faith , you haue the vniforme consent of the k k I pray you where doth S. Iohn say , hoc est corpus meum , or what other plaine and direct words hath he , or any of the greeke churches ? foure Euangelistes in direct and plaine wordes , you haue the vniforme consent & practise of the ˡ Gréek churches continued and remaining at this day , so that there is nothing wanting but the assistance of Gods holy spirite , which you are to séeke and craue be continuall and hearty prayer .

The Answere .

OVr Protestant here is worse afraid than hurt , the big lookes of his aduersary made him afraid , but his withered armes could not hurt him ; hee telleth vs with full mouth , and face enough , that he will proue the sacrifice of the masse which implyeth transubstantiation , by the consent of all ancient fathers , and the vniforme practise of the vniuersall Church , but when all is come to all , hee runnes away , and leaues this withered conclusion behind him , ergo , the sacrifice of the Church was either the masse , or the Protestants communion , I trow , such arguments as these may soone bee answered : but now that our Protestant calleth forth sense and reason to witnesse against him , and to demonstrate infallibly that his assertion is not to be beleeued ; he comes backe againe , and intreats him to shut his eies , and suffer himselfe to be hudwinked , and then he will take paines to lead him into a popish ditch . If we relie vpon the censure of our senses and reason , saith he , wee are in the hie way to all Atheisme and heresie : Iohn 20.27 : 29. a strange thing that that which was a meane to faith in Christs time , should now become a fountaine of heresie : our Sauiour saith to Thomas , because thou hast seene , thou beleeuest : and againe , put thy finger here , and see my hands , and put forth thy hand , put it into my side , and be not faithlesse , but beleeue : and in another place he saith , Luke 24.38 . why are yee troubled ? and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts ? behold my hands and my feete , for it is I my selfe , handle me and see , for a spirit hath not flesh and bones , as you see me to haue . Now I beseech you tell me , if the consecrated bread had a mouth to speake , as it hath an inuisible mouth , if Papists may be beleeued , and should say to vs , why are yee troubled ? and wherefore doe doubts arise in your hearts ? behold my forme and colour , handle , taste , and see , for the body of Christ is not round , white , sweete , heauie , thicke , grosse , earthie , as you taste , feele , and see me to be . Shall wee answere that this is the fountaine of heresie and Atheisme ? No , by your leaue , answer so who will , and who dare , this shall be my warrant to settle my conscience , and without further trouble of minde , or doubt of heart , to beleeue that it is very bread , and not the body of Christ . Moreouer the holy Apostle S. Iohn assureth vs of the certentie of his doctrine by the infalliblenesse of the outward senses , 1. Iohn 1.1 . saying , that which we haue heard , which wee haue seene with these our eies , which wee haue looked vpon , & these hands haue handled of that word of life , that I say , which we haue seene and heard , declare we vnto you , not that you may be Heretickes and Atheists , but that you may haue felloship with vs , and that our fellowship may be with the father , and with his sonne Iesus Christ .

Now touching humane reason , I would gladly know whether our Papist haue framed his arguments with it , or without it ? if with it ; let him take heede he be not an Hereticke or an Atheist : if without it ; I doubt , he shall hardly mooue either Hereticke or Catholicke to be of his opinion : much lesse conuert Infidels . It were strange doctrine to teach men neuer to vse the helpe of humane reason , because Saint Paul saith , Rom. 1 , 19. the wisedome of this world if foolishnesse , for though the mysterie of our redemption in Christ Iesu , be farre beyond the reach of mans wisedome : yet the same Paul saith , that 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 that you may be knowen concerning God , is ingraffed in the heart of man , whereby Gods eternall power and Godhead shining in his works is knowen vnto him , and Peter Lumbard , Lib. 3 , dist. 24. his owne Prophet saith , Quaedam fide creduntur , quae intelliguntur naturali ratione , Somethings are beleeued by faith , which are vnderstood by naturall reason . But to make short worke , Paul saith indeed , that the naturall man perceiueth not the things of the spirit of God , and God forbid we should denie it , but yet the same Apostle presently after saith , 1. Cor. 2.14 . &c. againe the spirituall man discerneth all things ; now let him shew vs that papists are spirituall men , and Protestants naturall men , and then we will vayle the bonnet of his insensible and vnreasonable assertions , otherwise we may not become fooles and run mad at his pleasure .

Againe , where he disputeth that an infidell may reiect the resurrection of the dead , the mystery of the Trinitie , the eternitie of the sonne of God , the comming in of Christ in his naturall bodie to his disciples the doores being shut , and such like Articles of our Christian faith , as well as we may reiect the reall presence in the Sacrament ; you may see the pure simplicitie of this man , who makes Christs entrance through a shut doore , to be an Article of faith . Howbeit his master of sentences findeth documents of the Trinitie in things created , and Saint Austine saith , Lib. 1. dist. 3. De Trinitate lib. 6. cap. 20. Oportet vt creatorem per ea quae facta sunt intellecta conspicientes , Trinitatem intelligamus , It behooueth vs , that we beholding in vnderstanding the creator by the things which were created , should vnderstand the Trinitie . Againe , Tertullian hath written a booke De resurrectione carnis , and Athenagoras a Christian Philosopher hath written another 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Of the resurrection of the dead , Tertullian . Athenagoras . wherein this article of faith is soundly prooued by humane reason , and it being a sure ground that God cannot be without his power and wisedome , and that the father is , Fons & origo Deitatis , as , sol , is , fons & origo lucis , The fountaine and originall of the Godhead , as the sunne is the fountaine and originall of light . It will not be so hard to conceiue by reason , that the son of God may be begotten , & yet coeternal with God his father , but I shal not need to labor further in this point ; there is a Treatise written purposely of this argument by Philip Morney a noble man of Fraunce , Phil. Morney . wherin you may see how far reason may wade in these & such like articles of Christianity , & therfore if [ an infidel ] flie to humane reason , he shal haue some stay to leane vpon in matters of faith , wheras neither he , nor we , nor any man els liuing , can find any possibility of reason or sense to induce vs to beleue the real presence .

Howbeit he may do well to teach vs from what an infidell should appeale to the arbiterment of humane reason ? is it like that any man will presse an infidell with Scriptures , Fathers , & Councels , & so to driue him to appeale to reason ? Paul saith , that prophecying serueth not for infidels , but for them which beleeue , 1. Cor. 14.22 where the Apostle meaneth such infidels , as be altogether strangers from Christian doctrine , and must be won by signes , not by prophecying , as for Fathers & Councels we may not prefer them to Paul and Peter in the conuersion of an infidell : and besides that , infidels will make more account of their own Prophets Epimenides , Menander , and Aratus , Tit. 1.12 Plato , Hesiode , and Homer , & such like , than of our Fathers and Councels : yet notwithstanding if we should confesse that other matters of faith cannot be measured by humane reason without danger of heresie : yet if you cleaue to his faith , & not to your owne reason in the reall presence : you cannot choose but be an hereticke ,

Dial , 2. in con.

The Symboles or signes of the Lords bodie , after the priest hath inuocated , are charged & made other shings .

and this doth Theodoret euidently declare in one of his Dialogues , where the hereticke saith , Symbola dominici corporis & sanguinis post inuocationem sacerdotis mutantur , et alia fiunt . And this he speakes of a substantial change , as our Papists do at this day ; but the Catholicke answereth , Signa mysticapost sanctificationem non recedunt à natura sua , manent enim in priori substantia , & figura , & forma . Thus hath Theodoret a learned and auncient father of the Greeke Church , written almost 1200. yeeres agoe , giuing cleerely to vnderstand , that the doctrine of transubstantiation was not Catholicke in his time , but hereticall , what the Greeke Church thinketh of it at this day , may better be learned by the last Session of the Councell of Florence , than by the bold face of this Papist , whose head is so full of vniforme consents and arguments of credibilitie , Council . Florent . sess , vltima . that he forgets how many of the Euangelists speake of the Lords supper .

See then what ill lucke this poore man hath , that both his vniforme consents faile him , the one confuted by Theodoret and the Councell of Florence , the other by Saint Iohns Gospel , where you shall not finde one word spoken of the Sacrament : all the foure Euangelists , quoth he ? how I pray you ? in thought , word , or deed ? marry , saith he in direct and plaine words ? Indeed the words of three Euangelists are direct and plaine against him , but the fourth saith nothing ; Matthew & Marke say , that the Sacrament of Christs blood after consecration , is the fruit of the vine : Math. 26.29 . Mar. 14.25 . cap. 22 , 20. and Luke saith , that the cup is the new Testament in his blood ; now if you vnderstand by the cup , not wine , but reall blood , it will follow that Christ had twoo bloods , or a double blood , for then is it all one , as if Saint Luke reported our Sauiour to haue spoken thus , This blood conteined in this cup , is the new Testament in my blood , Againe all these three Euangelists say , This is my body , where the demonstratiue pronowne must needs shew some visible thing or other , els our Sauiour dallied with his disciples , willing them to take and eat , when they saw nothing ; & the disciples themselues were witlesse , to reach out their hands to take and eat , that which they saw not , neuer asking where the thing was which our Sauiour spake of : now what was this visible thing , trow ye ? the body of Christ , they say is inuisible , if we say it was a lump of accidents then we must imagine our Sauior to speak thus , this lumpe of accidents is my body , which cannot be taken directly and plainely as the words lie without figure , and therefore that sense may not be abidden , what then ? can this visible thing be but bread which our Sauiour did breake , and his disciples did eate , whereas neither breaking nor eating can agree either to accidents or the inuiolable body of Christ .

But goe too , let vs admit that our Sauiour spake thus after the Catholicke fashion [ this that lieth hid inuisibly vnder these visible accidents , is my body ] then will it follow inanswerably either that Christ had two bodies , one visible that spake to the disciples , another inuisible that lay hid vnder accidents ; or else , if both were but one bodie by miracle , that the same one body is both visible and inuisible at once which is impossible , yea but God is omnipotent and nothing is to God impossible , yes , by your leaue , and so will Peter Lumbard tell you , Lib. 1. dist. 24. if it please you to heare him : Howbeit because the popish doctrine of transubstantiation cannot be maintained , vnlesse we hold that the bodie of Christ is visible and not visible at once , and also circumscribed and not circumscribed at one and the same time ; I will set you downe the iudgement of Saint Thomas of Aquine , who auoucheth in plaine and direct termes , that these contradictions cannot be auoided by appealing to Gods omnipotencie whereunto they are not subiect , these bee his wordes , Sum part. 1. quaest. 25. arti● . 3. Quicquid potest habere rationem entis continetur sub possibilibus absolutisre spectu quorum deus dicitur omnipotens , nihil autem opponitur rationi entis nisi non ens , hoc igitur repugnat rationi possibilis absoluti , quod subditur diuinae omnipotentiae , quod implicat in se , esse & non esse simul : hoc enim omnipotentiae non subditur , non propter defectum diuinae potentiae , sed quia non potest habere rationem factibilis neque possibilis : quaecunque igitur contradictionem non implicant , subillis possibilibus continentur , respectu quorum dicitur Deus omnipotens ; ea vero qua contradictionem implicant , sub diuina omnipotentia non continentur , quia non possunt habere possibilium rationem , vnde conuenientiùs dicitur quod ea non possunt fieri , quàm quod Deus ea non possit facere ; Luke 1 : 37 : neque hoc est contra verbum angeli dicentis , non erit impossibile apud Deum omne verbum , id enim quod contradictionem implicat verbum esse non potest , quia nullus intellectus potest illud concipere , Whatsoeuer hath the reason of ens is conteined vnder absolute possibilities , in regard whereof God is called omnipotent , now nothing is contrary to the reason of ens but non ens , this is therefore contrary to the reason of absolute possibility , which is subiect to the omnipotency of God , which implieth in it , to be and not to be at one instant : now this is not subiect to omnipotency , not for any defect of power in God , but because the same thing cannot haue the reason of possible to be done , and impossible : whatsoeuer things therefore doe not imply contradiction , are contained vnder those possibilities whereof God is called omnipotent ; but the things which imply contradiction are not conteyned vnder G●ds omnipotency , because they cannot haue the reason of possibilities , whereupon it is more fitly sayd , that these things cannot be done , than that God cannot doe them ; neither is this against the speech of the Angel , which sayd , No word shall be impossible with God ; for that which implyeth contradiction , is not a word , for no vnderstanding can conceiue it . Thus hath S. Thomas , the Angelicall doctor , the crowne and foretop of all poperie , dragged out transubstantiation by the heeles from vnder the shelter of Gods omnipotencie , and will not suffer such popish contradictions and impossibilities , as it is maintained by , to haue any succour in the almightinesse of Gods power .

The Dialogue . Sectio XIX . Prayers to Saints .

IDeòque habet ecclesiastica disciplina , quod fideles nouerunt , cùm Martyres eo loco recitantur ad altare Dei , ibi non pro ipsis oretur , pro caeteris autem commemoratis defunctis oretur , iniuria est enim pro Martyre orare , cuius nos debemus orationibus commendari : and therefore it is the practise of the Church , ( as the faithfull doe know ) that when as mention is made of the Martyrs at the altar of God , they are not prayed for , as others are who are departed ; for it is an iniury to pray for a Martyr , vnto whose prayers we ought to Not a a by praying to them after they are dead . commend our selues : Austine de verbis Apostoli sermone 17. Ideo quippe ad ipsam mensam non sic Martyres commemoramus , quemadmodum alios qui in pace requiescunt , vt etiam pro eis oremus , sed magis vt orent ipsi pro nobis , vt eorum vestigijs hereamus , quia impleuerunt ipsi charitatem , qua Dominus dixit non posse esse maiorem , and therefore at the Lords table we doe not b b Augustine doth not say here we should pray to Martyrs : make mention of the Martyrs , as wee doe of others that rest in peace , to the intent to pray for them also , but rather that they should pray for vs , that we may constantly follow their steps , &c. Sancta Maria succurre miseris , &c. c c Cauendum ne dum matris excellentia amplietur , filij gloria minuatur , &c. Bonauent. in 3. dist. 3. quest. 2. We must take heede , least while the excellencie of the mother is enlarged , the glorie of the sonne bee diminished . Holy M●rie succour vs wretches , helpe vs that are weake hearted , comfort vs that mourne , pray for the people , &c. Austine de Sanctis d d These sermons be none of Austines . sermone 18. reade also the 35. sermon de Sanctis .

The Answere .

THis point of popish doctrine may well be called a doctrine of diuels , and therefore wee answere them that defend it , and vrge it vpon vs , as our Sauiour answered the deuill , Matth. 4.10 . Deuter. 10.20 Rom. 10.14 . auoyd Satan , for it is written , thou shalt worship the lord thy God , and him onely shalt thou serue , when Paul saith , how shall they call on him in whom they haue not beleeued ? hee sheweth vs to whom this seruice belongeth , namely , to him in whom wee beleeue , De ciuit . Dei lib. 22. cap. 10 which cannot agree to any creature in heauen or earth , and therefore well saith Austine , whose authoritie is here pretended , Vni Deo & Martyrum & nostro sacrificium immolamus , ad quod sacrificium , sicut homines Dei qui mundum in eius confessione vicerunt , suo loco & ordine nominantur , non tamen à sacerdote qui sacrificat inuocantur . Wee doe offer sacrifice to one and the same God both of the Martyrs and ours , at which sacrifice , though the men which haue ouercome the world in the confession of his name , are in their place and order named , yet are they not inuocated by the Priest that sacrificeth . This is a plaine testimonie against the inuocation of dead Martyrs , and therefore we must not accept of these places , which our Papist here offereth vs , according to the first view , but looke better into them , and so expound them , as they may agree together with that other place which I haue quoted , and here I offer you three seuerall expositions , agreeable ( I thinke ) to Austines words heere alleaged by our Papist ; the first is , that the commending of vs to the Martyrs prayers here spoken of , is not by praier made vnto them when they are dead , but by request made vnto them before their Martyrdome , when they are aliue , as the theefe in the Gospell prayed our Sauiour vpon the crosse before his death , [ Lord , remember me when thou comest into thy Kingdome , Luk. 23 , 42. Libr. 1. Epist. 1 in fine . ] Cyprian writes so to Cornelius , Si quis hinc nostrum prior diuinae dignationis celeritate precesserit , perseueret apud Deum nostra dilectio , pro fratribus & sororibus nostris apud misericordiam patris non cesset oratio , If any of vs through the goodnesse of God goe hence first before other , let our loue still continue when we are with God , that we cease not to pray before the Fathers mercie , for our brethren and sisters . Secondly , when Austine saith , that the Martyrs are therefore remembred at the Altar , that they may so be mooued to pray for vs , he taketh the thankefull commemoration of their names at the Lords table without any further praying vnto than , Contr. Faustum lib. 20 , Cap. 21. to be a sufficient spurre to exercise them to yeeld vs such helpe , as they can afford vs , & therfore he teacheth vs elsewhere , that Christians celebrated the memories of Martyrs for these two intents , Vt meritis eorum consocientur , atque orationibus adinuentur , That they may be associate to the merits , De tempore serm. 244. and holpen with their prayers . And in another place , that Martyrs do make intercession for vs , quando in nohis aliquid de suis virtutibus recognoscunt , when they find any of their vertues to lie in vs . Thirdly and lastly , the one of these two places alleaged for this superstitious kinde of praying , may serue for an exposition of the other , for when the one saith , Iniuria est pro Martyre orare , cuius nos debemus orationibus commendari , It is iniurie to pray for a Martyr , to whose prayers we ought rather to be commended . The other telleth you that the word magis , rather , is wanting , whereby wee are informed , that we ought rather to pray to Martyrs , than for Martyrs , and yet neither the one simply lawfull , nor the other .

Now , touching the last authoritie out of the counterfeit Sermons De sanctis , it is shamefully derogatorie to the mediation of Christ Iesus , so as a Christian heart can hardly brooke it ; we thinke it a foule speech , that Cardinall Bembus vsed in an Epistle he wrote to Clarles the fifth , Bembus . wherein he calleth the blessed Virgine , Dominam & Deam nostram , Our Ladie and Goddesse . But here in these Sermons she is called , forma Dei , the forme of God : so likewise Ambrose Catherine in the Councell of Trent calleth her , Sess. 2. fidelissimam Dei sociam , the most faithfull mate of God ; and these Sermons say little lesse , where we read , Te rex regum vt sponsam sibi associat , Thee the King of Kinges doth associate to himselfe as his spouse . To be short , this wretched author calleth her , Sponsam Dei , reginam coelorum , Dominam angelorum , mundi redemptricem , reportatricem gratiae reconciliationis , The Spouse of God , the Queene of heauen , the Ladie of Angels , the Redeemer of the world , the bringer of the grace of reconciliation ; and teacheth vs to inuocate her after this manner , Tu es spes vnica peccatorum , per te speramus veniam delictorum , in te nostrorum est expectatio praemiorum , Thou art the onely hope of sinners , by thee we hope for pardon of our sinnes , in thee we looke for our rewards . And then followeth immediately , Sancta Maria succurre miseris , &c. Holy Marie helpe vs wretches , as our Papist here hath alleaged ; if this Diuinitie may bee tolerated , then let our gathered stickes , Ierem. 7.18 . and the Fathers kindle the fire , and our women knead dough to bake cakes for the Queene of heauen , and let the Collyridians bee heretickes no longer , Christus dixit ( saith Epiphanius ) quid mihi & tibi est mulier ? non dum venit hora mea , Heres. 59. Ioh. 2.4 . quo non putarent aliqui magis eximiam esse sanctam Virginem , mulierem eam appellauit veluti prophetans , quae essent futura in terra sectarum & haereserie genera , vt ne aliqui nimium admirati sanctam , in hanc haeresim eiusque deliramenta dilabantur , Christ said , what haue I to doe with this woman ? mine houre is not yet come , that some might not think the holy Virgine to be more excellent than she was , he calleth her woman prophesying as it were , what kindes of sects and heresies there should bee in the world , least some admiring too much her holy person , should fall into this doting heresie . And Ambrose , In Rom. Cap. 1 Isti se non putant reos qui honorem nominis Dei deferunt creaturae , & relicto domino creaturas adorant , nam & ideo ad reges per Tribunos & Comites itur , quia homo vtique est rex , & nescit quibus debeat rempub . credere , ad Deum autem , quem nihil latet , omnium enim merita nouit promerendum , suffragatore non est opus , sed mente deuota , vbicunque enim talis loquutus fuerit ei respondebit illi , These men thinke not themselues guiltie , which giue the honour of the name of God to a creature , and leauing the Lord , adore creatures : for therefore indeed , wee goe to Kings by Tribuues and Earles , because the King is a man , and knoweth not to whome to commit the publique affaires ; but to God , from whome nothing is hidden , for hee knoweth all mens need , we haue no need of any to speak for vs , but a deuout mind , for wheresoeuer a man so qualified speaketh , he wil answere . These be reuerend witnesses , such as cannot be excepted against , to whom Chrysostomes witnesse may bee added out of his Homilies de poenitentia , Homines vtuntur atriensibus , Homil. 4. ( saith hee ) in Deo nihil est tale , sine mediatore est execrabilis , Men vse dore-keepers , in God there is no such thing , for he is execrable or easie to bee intreated , without a mediator . And againe elsewhere , De profect . Euang. Nihil tibi opus est patronis apud Deum neque enim tam facile Deus audit si alij pro nobis orent , quam si ipsi òremus , et si pleni simus omnibus malis , With God thou hast no neede of any Patrons , for God doth not so readily heare , if others pray for vs , as if we pray our selues , although we bee full of all manner of euils . Wherefore they that set vp to themselues new mediators , whether it be of redemption or intercession , for by such nice distinctions our good Catholickes elude the authoritie of Saint Paul , those men dishonour Iesus Christ our onely mediator , 1. Tim. 2.5 . and so make open shew to the world , that they are the members of Antichrist .

The Dialogue . Sectio XX. Vowes of Chastitie and marriage of Priests .

VEteribus Iudeorum sacerdotibus vxores ad vsum habere licebat , &c. It was lawfull for the ancient Priests among the Iewes , to haue the vse of wiues , because they a a After that Dauid had sorted them , not before . had much time wherein they were not employed in the administration of their office ; but when the time drew néere , wherein they were to serue in their turnes : First , hauing prepared themselues some dayes before they came vnto the Temple to offer to God , but now there ought to be b b Why doe you not obserue this as well as the other ? seuen Deacons , and so many Priests as euerie Church may haue two Priests , and euerie Citie one Bishop , and for this cause ought they all of them , to abstaine from women , because they are all of them bound c c What ? night and day ? continually without intermission ? continually , to attend vpon their office in the Church , neither haue they any time of intermission , wherein after their companying with their wiues , they may d d There was neuer any purification of Priests since Christs time , yet many were maried , neither is it needfull to purifie an vndefiled bed . Hebr. 13 4. be purified , as the Priests of the Iewes had , for they are to offer euerie wéeke , if not euerie day vnto strangers , yet twise euerie wéeke for their Parochians , and there are dayly some sicke persons to be baptised , Saint Ambrose in his Commentarie vpon the third Chapter of the first Epist. to Timothie .

The Answere .

THese Vowes , and single life of Priests , which our Papist here propoundeth for Catholicke , proceeded first from the Deuill the spirite of errour , and so Paul teacheth vs in the first to Timothie , Cap. 4.1.3 . neither is it any thing to the purpose , that the ancient Fathers allowed of these errours , and gaue them countenance in their writings , for heretickes did so likewise aswell as Catholickes , and the Fathers did it not of a set deliberate iudgement , but of an extraordinary zeale and loue they bare to that kinde of life , especially in Gods Ministers , Castitas blanda est , & quemlibet ad se alliciens , Ier: in Math. cap. 19 , Orig : in Rom. ca. 12 , lib. 9. Chastitie hath a faire shew , and doth easily entice any man to it , saith Ierome , and Origen , Potest aliquis de Castitate plus sapere quàm oportet sapere , A man may haue a better conceit of Chastitie , than hee ought to haue ; and that the Fathers sometime went beyond the bounds of sobriety in this point of doctrine , let Chrysostome serue for example , who writes thus in his first Homilie vpon Mathew , Chrysost: in Math. Hom. 1. Haec ipsa coniunctio maritalis malum est coram Deo , non dico peccatum , sed malum , This verie coniunction of married couples is euill before God , I do not say it is sin , but euill . And yet presently after in the same place he sayth , Non potest fierie vt vna eademque res pro parte sit iustitia , & pro parte peccatum , aut enim tota est iustitia , aut totum est peccatum , quia libido in maritis & adulteris res vna est . It cannot be that one & the same thing , should be partly righteousnesse , and partly sinne , but it must be either all righteousnesse , or all sinne , because lust in maried persons and adulterers is one thing . You shall haue another example out of the west , I meane out of Tertullian , who though he were a Priest himselfe , as Ierome witnesseth , Descrip: ecclesiast : lib. 1 , ca. 11. Tertul : lib. de exhort . ad castitat . and maried too , as appeareth by his Booke written to his wife , saith notwithstanding , In matrimonio deprehendo , quae stupro competunt , In matrimonie I finde some things , which are competent to adulterie . And againe , Nuptiae ex eo constant quod est stuprum , Marriage consisteth of that which is whoredome . The like vnciuill out-roads against Gods holy ordinance , may you finde in Ierome against Iouiniane , and Heluidius , and in his Letter to Gerontia , and in some other of the ancient Fathers , and therefore in all equitie you must thinke they are not fit Iudges to determine either of Priests marriage , or vowes of Chastitie .

Howbeit , let vs heare what they say , The first is Ambrose , whose reason ( drawn from the Priests vnder the law ) is now nothing worth among vs , where neither of the Sacraments is so often to bee attended vpon , but that your Priests , for ought may appeare , haue time inough to be purified in , neither was this often baptizing and communicating general euery where , or most where in Ambroses time . Againe , what impuritie or pollution can there bee in the true and lawfull vse of marriage ? doth Saint Paul say , [ the bed is vndefiled , Hebr. 23 , 4. De bono coniug. cap. 11. Socrat. hystor . lib. 1. cap. 8. ] and Austine , Sancta sunt corpora coniugatorum fidem sibi & domino seruantium ? The bodies of married folkes are holy , if they keepe their faith betweene themselues , and to the Lord . And doth not Paphnutius that worthy Confessor , say in the hearing of all the Fathers in the Counsell of Nice , Viri cum vxore legitima concubitus , castimonia est ? The companying of a man with his lawfull wife , is chastity ? Verily , I see not why I may not answere Saint Ambrose , as the voice of God from heauen answered Saint Peter in the like case , [ those thinges that God hath purified , pollute thou not . ] I am sure Ignatius giueth him a sharper answere , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Act 10 , 15 , & 11 , 9. ad Philadelph . That is to say , Hee that calleth lawfull copulation and procreation of children , corruption and pollution ; that man hath the apostaticall Dragon , the Diuell dwelling in him .

Thirdly , wee must vnderstand that those legall impure things were not so , all of them in their owne nature , but so layd apart by Gods lawe as vncleane to signifie the inward puritie , that God required in the soules and spirites of them that approached vnto him , for there is no other reason of worth why a Conie , Leuit. cap. 11. or a Hare should be more vncleane than a Bull , or a Cow , or why a Duck or a Goose should be more pure , than a Swan or a Hernshaw . And this appeareth by the generalitie of Gods graunt or Patent giuen to Noah , Genes. 9.3 . and his Sonnes in the ninth of Genesis . Now this outward bodily puritie was requisite in all that medled with Gods mysteries both priest and people , 1. Sam. 21 , 4. Exod. 19.15 . as that noble priest Abimelech teacheth , who would not suffer Dauid and his men to eat of the hallowed bread of God , vnlesse they had beene cleere before for some good time , from the companie of their wiues . Here-hence then we learne three things ; first , that as meat , so marriage of it selfe polluted not , no not in time of the law , but because the ceremonial law which then had place , had so appointed . Secondly , that if it were to bee obserued still in this point of companying with wiues , then not onely the Priest that ministreth , but the people that receiueth , should bee subiect vnto it ; nay , rather the people than the priest , because the priest hath no such particular commaundement . And thirdly , that outward cleanesse appointed in the law , Lib. 1. Epist. 4. signified inward puritie , and so Cyprian applyeth it in one of his Epistles . Now those outward shadowes , hauing serued out their prentiship , are now made free , and may not still be counted shadowes vnder the Gospel , wherin the thing signified by them , is required of God with open face without any ceremoniall obscuritie , Imagines transeunt admipletae , Tertul. de Monog . definitiones permanent adimplendae , imagines prophetant , definitiones gubernant , the figures passe away being fulfilled , or definitions remaine to be fulfilled , that figures prophecie , but the definitions gouerne . Cap. 21 , 17. &c. There be a number of blemishes reckoned vp in Leuiticus , whereby the seed of Aaron was made vncapable of offering the bread of his God , yet haue they no place in the ministerie of the Gospell , further than to signifie how free it should be from the blemishes of the soule .

But to send Ambrose away with his quietus est , 1. Cor. 23 , & 24 , &c. Exod. 30.7 , 8. wee must vnderstand that before Dauid in the end of his raigne appointed the courses and orders of the Priests , and Leuites ; the high Priest himselfe was to offer incense morning and euening , and otherwise to minister in the tabernacle , yet is it cleere , that hee abstained not from his wiues companie , Quest. 82. but begate Sonnes and Daughrers , and this doth Austine acknowledge vpon Leuiticus , where hee demaundeth how the high Priest could offer incense dayly morning and euening , which by reason of sicknesse incident , and the duetie of marriage hee must intermit ? and then he answereth , that God might preserue him in health for his seruice , and that the high Priest might haue prerogatiue aboue other men , not to bee defiled by the act of matrimonie ; yet this last answere pleased him not , Retract . lib. 2. and therefore in his retractations he saith , that the high Priest after morning Sacrifice might vse his wife , and then wash his clothes and purifie himselfe against the euening , which vtterly defaceth Ambroses argument , for if the Priests vnder the law had such a prerogatiue , as the act of matrimonie could not make them vncleane , or being made vncleane in the morning , might so hastily purifie themselues before euening : then verily their example yeeldeth no reason against the marriage either of popish Priests , or our Ministers .

The Dialogue . Sectio XXI .

SAint a a This Chrysostome was neuer Bishop of Constantinople . Chrysostome . Honorabiles , inquit , sunt nuptiae & cubile thorum immaculatum , &c. Marriage is honourable ( saith he ) and the marriage bed vndefiled , but fornicators and adulterers God will iudge : but now the priuiledge of mariage cannot excuse thée , for he that hath once ioyned himselfe in the b b All true Christians haue so ioyned themselues , Hebr. 12.22 . fellowship of Angels , if hée shall forsake the same , and intangle himselfe in the c c Marriage is not a snare , but a meane to saue vs from the snares of Satan . snares of mariage , he shall defile himselfe with the d d It cannot be adultery , and worse than adulterie too . sinne of adulterie , and although thou doest oftentimes call it by the name of mariage , yet I doe pronounce , that it is so much e e That is to say , Epist. 6. worse than adulterie , by how much an Angel is greater and better than a mortall man . f f Id est , nulla . Tom. 6. ad Theodorum monachum homilia . 21.

The Answere .

CHrysostome is next , but it is not an Homilie , but an Epistle to Theodorus which is here fathered vpon Chrysostome ; howbeit , supposing that Chrysostome is the true author & founder of that counterfeit Epistle . I answere that hee is so hot in his amplifications that hee forgets himselfe , for if the marryage of one that hath vowed chastitie bee the sinne of adulterie : how can it bee so farre worse than adulterie , as he saith it is ? and if it be so farre worse than adulterie , as an Angell is greater and better than a mortall man ; then why may not we pronounce likewise , that it is not the sin of adulterie ? but ( I beseech you ) consider what fellowship of Angels the promise of chastitie ioyneth vs into : doth not the holy Ghost say as much , and more a great deale of all the faithfull children of God married , and vnmarried ? [ Yee are come vnto Mount Sion , Hebr. 12.22 . and to the Citie of the liuing God , the celestiall Ierusalem , and to the fellowship of innumerable Angels , & to the companie of the first borne which are written in heauen , and to God the Iudge of all , and to the spirites of the iust and perfect men , and to Iesus the mediator of the new testament , and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better things than that of Abel , &c. ] We see here that a true Christian is ioyned in fellowship with innumerable Angels , and farre more than that comes to , yet I would reckon him for a hastie disputer , that durst not venter thereof , to conclude , that euerie man or woman , taking a wife or a husband after profession of Christianitie , defileth himselfe with the sinne of adulterie , and farre worse too .

Howbeit , it may bee Chrysostome had respect to that place , where our Sauiour saith , Math , 22.30 . &c. Mar. 112.25 . that in the resurrection they neither marrie , nor are married , but are as the Angels of God in heauen ; if it be so , then his votaries wait , till the resurrection be past , and then lay claime to the fellowship of Angels , for being as the Angels of God , is not there spoken of onely in regard of not marrying , but also in regard of not dying , Cap. 20.36 . as Saint Luke expoundeth it , looke the Bible ouer and ouer , and you shall neuer read that Angels refused man or womans fellowship because they were married , or accepted of it , because they were vnmarried and single , and therefore these vehement speeches of the ancient Fathers , especially Chrysostome , may not be racked to the vttermost , but charitably and friendly construed to the best , Chrysostome here in his vehemencie , goeth beyond measure in reprehending , & the Christians of his time in their lightnesse went beyond measure in vowing , yet the East-Church then neuer exacted any such promise or vow , but left euerie Christian man and woman to their owne libertie , Socrat. histor: lib. 5. cap. 21. Illustres presbyteri in Oriente , & Episcopi etiam , modo ipsi volluerint , nulla lege coacti ab vxoribus abstinent , nam non pauci ipsorum , dum Episcopatum gerunt , etiam liberos ex vxore legitima procreant , Famous Ministers in the east , yea , and Bishops also are not compelled by any law to abstaine from wiues , for many of them euen when they are Bishops , doe beget children of a lawfull wife .

Well , but what s that charitable construction you speake of ? I pray you let vs heare it , and so an end . Content , Chrysostome saith , that such marriage is worse than adulterie , and Austine saith as much , yet Austine expoundeth himselfe presently in the same place , De bono viduit . cap. 9. saying , Non quod ipsae nuptiae vel talium damnandae iudicentur , daemnatur propositi fraus , damnatur fracta voti fides , &c. Not that the verie marriages euen of such men as ought to be iudged damnable , their deceitfull purpose is damnable , the breach of their vow is damnable . And againe , Damnantur tales , non quia coniugalem fidem posterius inierunt , sed quia continentiae primam fidem irritam faecerunt , Such are condemned , not because they did afterward enter into the state of mariage , but because they brake their former vowe of continencie . You see heere howe Austine expoundeth himselfe , and therefore if wee charitably expound Chrysostome after the same manner , we haue as good warrant as Austine can giue vs , neuerthelesse to speake yet more precisely , wee may not take the breach of faith to be so great a sinne , as the giuing of it vnaduisedly beyond our strength , if a man should vow to fast bread and water all the dayes of his life , and afterward feeling his strength to faile , should fall to better fare , for the recouerie of the same : there is no reasonable man that will find fault with him for breaking that yoake of bondage at the last , but for thrusting his necke vnto it at the first Si quis castitatem promiserit , & seruare non poterit , In Leuit. lib. 3 pronunciet peccatum suum , ( saith Cirill in one place , ) If any man haue promised continencie , and cannot keepe it , let him confesse his sinne , But he saith againe in another place , In Leuit. lib. 16. Oportet commetiri doctrinam pro virium qualitate , & huiusmodi , qui non possunt capere sermonem de castitate , concedere nuptias , We must measure the doctrine according to mens strength , and graunt marriage to such as cannot receiue that doctrine of continencie .

The Dialogue . Sectio XXII .

EPiphanius , Quae enim ad sacerdotium tradita sunt , propter eminentiam celebrationis sactorum , ea ad omnes aequaliter ferri putauerunt , &c. Those traditions which were deliuered peculiarly for the Clergie , by reason of their a a None more supereminent , than the Apostles , who were married men , so was Peter himselfe . supreminencie in the celebration of the diuine mysterie , these heretickes would haue all men tyed vnto , when they did heare that a Bishop ought to be vnreprooueable , the husband of one wife , and continent , and likewise of Deacons and Priests , for in truth since the comming of Christ , the Doctrine b b Where is it forbidden in all the new testament ? of the Gospell doth not admit into these offices any that haue married a second wife , by reason of the excellent dignitie of priesthood , and this holy c c But either Churches obserued it not , as appeareth in Tertullian , De Monog . church doth sincerely obserue , yet doth not the church admit any into those Offices , that is the husband but of one wife , whose wife is yet liuing with him in the fellowship of marriage , but him onely d d Here Epiphanius is fasly translated , that Epiphanius might not seeme vnreasonable . that either was neuer married , or that after the death of his first wife liueth vnmarried , the church receiueth into the office of a Deacon , Priest , Bishop , or Subdeacon , which is especially obserued where the Ecclesiasticall Canons e e There is smal sinceritie in such Canons . are sincerely kept , but thou wilt say vnto me , that in many places Priests and Deacons doe liue in wedlocke , but this is not according to the sinceritie of the Canons , &c. Thus haue I f f You must search better , or you will neuer finde it . searched , and ( as I hope ) made sensible the second mortall wound , which ( as I sayd ) you haue giuen to your owne cause by fashioning vnto your selues such an imaginarie and mathematicall Church , as all the g g They acknowledged no other . ancient Fathers and Doctors of the Church did neuer know , nor acknowledge ; whereupon it will follow , if that out of the Church , as out of the Arke , there bée no saluation , that all these reuerend Fathers and Doctors were heretickes , and are damned Spirits , or else that you be heretickes your selues .

The Answere .

EPiphanius comes in now to tell his tale , and our Papist bearing good will to traditions , englisheth quae tradita sunt , which were deliuered , those traditions which were deliuered , and yet when all comes to all , those traditions are found in Paul to Timothie and Titus , and they are as cleere against the necessitie of single life in a Bishop , as can be desired . Paul saith , [ a Bishop must be the husband of no more but one wife ] at once , Cap. 3.2 . Tit. 1.5.6 . for that s his meaning in the first to Timothie . Now in the Epistle to Titus , he willeth Titus [ to ordaine Elders in euerie Citie , ] such as hee found irreprooueable , the husbands of one wife , &c. euidently teaching vs , that marriage was then no barre against being a Bishop , or a Minister of the Gospell : and so saith Chrysostome , Ita pretiosa res est , vt cum ipsa etiam possit quis ad sanctum Episcopatus solium subuehi , In Tit. Serm. 2 It is so precious a thing , that a man with it may be aduanced to the seat of a Bishop : Againe hee translates , qui abvna continuit , which hath contained from one , him onely that was neuer married , adding the word [ onely ] to the text , and peruerting the meaning of Epiphanius , who thought it commendable for a man to renounce his wife , ob continentiam , for continencie , and tels vs elsewhere , that Priests were chosen , Here. 61. cont. Apost. in compend . doctr: eccles. ex his qui continent à proprijs vxoribus , aut ab vnis nuptijs viduitatem seruantibus , Of these which contained from their owne wiues , or after their first wiues were dead , liued vnmarried . Whereby we learne that he speakes here of such as kept their bodies cleere from the vse of their wiues , which Saint Paul forbids , 1. Cor. 7 , 3 , &c. not of such as were neuer married , as our Papist dreameth .

But what be these Canons that Epiphanius talks of ? where may a man finde them ? what Councell decreed them ? what words are they conceiued in ? I feare me , when all is done , they will prooue Apochryphall , agreed vpon in some Prouinces where the chiefe Bishops had beene wanton , and written loue Sonnets in their youth , as one Heliodorus did , who to prooue himselfe a new man in his age , caused such Canons to be made against the Ministers of Thessalia . The like may be thought of such Bishops as were chosen from among such as led vitam solitariam , a solitarie life ; Socrat : eccles: hyst . lib. 5 , cap. 21. Epiphan: in Comp: doct: eccles. as the maner was in Epiphanius time , who being magnified in the world for their chastitie , thought good to impose it as a law vpon their brethren . Againe , it might well be , that these Canons being borne and bred among heretickes , such as the Montanists , Catharans , Apostolickes , and such like , were layd hold vpon by Catholicke Bishops with some mitigation , thinking it no small disgrace , that heretickes should goe beyond them in a vertue : then so highly esteemed in the world , howsoeuer it was , Sorom : lib. 6 , 23. Epiph: her : 26 yet Epiphanius being brought vp solitarily among the Monkes of Aegypt and Palestine , and hauing escaped the filthy enticements of the Guostickes , to his great prayse ; it is no maruaile though hee were somewhat hardly conceited of the marriage of Priests , and talke flyingly of I wote not what apochryphall Canons , whose authors knew them not , nor they their authors .

Wherefore , till these hidden Canons be brought to light , it is fit other knowne Canons should take place . In the Canons of the Apostles , thus it is written , Episcopus , aut presbyter , Can. 5. aut Diaconus vxorem suam pretextu religionis ne abijciat , aut si abiecerit à communione segregetur , etsi perseueret deponatur , Let not a Bishop , Elder , or Deacon put away his wife , vnder pretence of religion , if he doe , let him be barred from the communion , if he continue in his error , let him be deposed . Can 4. In the Councell of Gangra thus , Si quis discernint presbyterum coniugatum , tanquam occasionem nuptiarum quod efferre non debeat , & abeius oblatione abstinet , Anathema sit , If any man iudge of a maried Bishop , as if because hee is maried , he ought not to minister , and doe abstaine from his ministration , let him be accursed . In the Councell of Ancyra thus , Can. 9. Diaconi , si in ipsa ordinatione protestati sint , velle se matrimonio copulari , hi , si postea vxores duxerint , in ministerio maneant , Deacons , if in their verie ordination , they protest that they will be maried , if afterwards they do marie wiues , ought to remaine in the ministerie . In the Councell of Constantinople thus , Dist. 31. quoniam , & Canon . Tertullianis Conc. 6. can . 13 Si quis praesumpserit contra Apostolicos Canones aliquos praesbyterorum & Diaconorum priuare à contactu & communione legalis vxoris suae , deponatur , similiter & praesbyter aut Diaconus , qui religionis causa vxorem suam expellit , excommunicetur , If any shal presume contrary to the Canons of the Apostles to separate any Elders , or Deacons from the companie and societie of his lawfull wife , let him be deposed , & likewise the Elders or Deacons , which vnder colour of Religion putteth away his wife , let him bee excommunicated . To be short , when the Councell of Nice purposed to seuer Bishops , Presbyters , and Deacons from the vse of their wiues , Paphnutius thought it vnlawfull and intollerable so to doe , and brought the whole Councell to bee of his minde , Serem . lib. 1.22 . Paphnutij sententiam approbauit Concilium , & de hac nullam legem tulit , sed eam in cuiusque arbitrio , non in necessitate poni voluit , The Councell did approoue the sentence of Paphnutius , and made no decree concerning this matter , but left it in euery mans choise , and made not a matter of necessitie .

But what should we talke of sincere Canons , in such matters as bee ouer-ruled and determined in the Canon of the Scripture ? for if it be doubted whether a Bishop may marie ; Paul saith , to auoide fornication , let euerie man haue his wife , and in another place , [ mariage is honourable among all . And againe , [ if thou takest a wife , thou sinnest not . 1. Cor. 7.2 . Heb. 13 , 4. 1. Cor. 7.28 . 1. Cor. 7 , 9 , 39. Tertul. de Mo. nog . ] If you doubt whether hee may marrie a second wife , Paul saith , [ if they ( meaning widowers ) cannot abstaine , let them marrie , ] and Tertullian after his fall to Montanisme , obiecteth against Christians , that their Bishops maried second wiues , quot & digami president apud vos . If you doubt whether a Minister may containe from the vse of his wife , Paul saith , [ let the husband giue to his wife due beneuolence . ] And againe , [ the husband hath not the power of his owne bodie , but the wife . 1. Cor. 7 , 3. 1. Cor. 7 , 4. 1. Cor. 7.5 . ] If you doubt whether a Minister may containe with his wifes consent ; Paul saith , [ defraud not one another , except it bee with consent for a time , that ye may giue your selues to fasting & prayer , and come together again , that Satan tempt you not for your incontinencie : ] & in another place , [ art thou bound to a wife ? seek not to be loosed . 1. Cor. 7.27 . ] Marke well these places of holy Scripture , and then iudge how sincere those Canons were , that Epiphanius talkes of , I doubt you will easily finde , that the word of God and sinceritie would agree better .

Now , where this reuerend Father speakes of the Super-eminencie , and excellent dignitie of Priest-hood , as if the honourable institution and ordinance of God did abase it ; we must needs thinke him too partially affected : for the Apostles of Christ , whome our Sauiour aduanced to the highest degree that euer was in ministerie , were almost all maried men , & to say that Peter was not as excellent an Apostle as S. Iohn , and that the maried Priests of the primitiue Church were not as excellent men in all respects , as the rest that liued singly without wiues , is more than any godly learned man will venter to auouch ; yet notwithstanding , the dignitie of Priest-hood , doth not free any mortall man from the daunger of fornication , neither will Satan therefore cease to tempt vs , because we are Priests , but set himselfe so much the rather to mooue vs to incontinencie : and therfore if a man , feeling his owne weakenesse , shall sooth himselfe with an ouer-weening conceit of the excellencie of his Priest-hood , and so neglect the remedie that God hath appointed ; how can that man promise to himselfe any assistance from God to keepe him from falling ?

Thus much briefly of euerie point of Doctrine , and euery testimonie thereto belonging , whereof you may gather , that this second wound is easily healed , I hope the disagreement that was between Paul and Barnabas , doth not prooue them to be of two Churches , or either the one or the other to be a damned hereticke . The ancient Fathers were men , and might erre , and did erre many of them together , euen whole Councels , as it is apparant to the world , yet God forbid that therefore wee should count them Heretickes , and throw them ouer-boord out of the Arke of Gods Church ; No friend Papist , though wee discent from them in some points of doctrine , as they likewise discented from such as were before them , yet all of vs hold one foundation , and it was no part of their beleefe , that such as held not these points , were out of the Church , neither is it any part of our beleefe , Ad Fortunatianum Epist. 111. that such as held them , were damned Heretickes ; Austine saith , Catholicorum , & laudatorum hominum disputationes velut scripturas Canonicas habere non debemus , vt nobis non liceat , saluae honorificentiae quae illis debetur hominibus , aliquid in eorum scriptis improbare atque respuere , We ought not to haue the same , in regard the discourses of Catholicke and laudable men , as the canonicall scriptures , that we may not sauing that honour which is due to those men , disallow and refuse something in their writings . And when Ierome had alleaged the authoritie of sixe or seuen Fathers against Austine , Epist: 19. in defence of Peters hypocrisie ; Austine is bold to answere him thus , Solis eis scripturarum libris , qui iam Canonici appellantur , didici hunc timorem honoremque deferre , vt nullum eorum authorem scribendo aliquid errasse firmissimè credam : Alios autem italego vt quantalibet sanctitate doctrinaque praepalleant , non ideo verum putem quia ipsi ita senserunt , sed quia per illos authores canonicos , vel probobabili ratione , quòd à vero non abhorreat persuadere potuerunt . I haue learned to giue this reuerence and honour only to those bookes of the holy scriptures , which are now called Canonicall , to beleeue assuredly , that no authour of them did erre in writing any thing . But others I read , so that of how great learning or holinesse soeuer they be , I do not therefore thinke a thing to be true because they thought so , but because they were able to perswade it by those Canonicall authors , or by some probable reason agreeing with the truth .

The Dialogue . Sectio XXIII .

PRo. The Doctors did erre grosly in many things , as you must of force confesse , & therfore a feeble foundation are they to build our saluation vpon : Austine wrote his Retractations , & in the doctrin of purgatorie , which you labor so seriously to build vpon his authoritie , he was so a a These places are too hot for our Papist to handle . doubtfull and wauering , that sometime he writeth thereof doubtfully , as [ fieri potest ] it may be that there is such a thing , [ forsitan ita est ] peraduentute it is so ; sometime he seemeth to affirme it , and sometime he flatly denieth it . Irenaeus held , that the soules of the righteous should remaine in a place appointed for them of God , and not enter into heauen before the generall resurrection . Tertullian wrote a booke of the vnlawfulnesse of second marriages . Hilarie held , that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his body . Thus could I run ouer all the Fathers , and find in them many such points of doctrine , which you doe no lesse detest then we doe those things which you doe labour to build vpon their authoritie . Now tell me , why doe we exclude the Fathers out of our Church , by refusing some of their opinions , more than you doe exclude them out your Church , by refusing of other some ? or why is it not as free for vs to reiect their authoritie in the one , as it is for you to reiect it in the other ? or why may not I argue ( as you doe against vs ) that because these doctors did hold these opinions which I haue set downe , that therefore the vniuersall Church in their time , did imbrace the same ? or ( if that their said opinions had bene erroneous ) that some men or other would haue impugned than by writing ? Pap. Your answere doth consist on diuers points , b b Where , or when ? here I am sure you do not all which I wil prosecute particularly and in order : first therefore , I must not denie that the doctors were men , and that they were not without their blemishes and errors , c c We must d sappoint you of your hope . Looke the answere . hoping that you will also confesse , that they were such men as for their great learning and piety , haue euer bene admired , and had in high reuerence of all posteritie , and accepted for the principall workemen in the building of Gods spirituall Temple next vnto the Apostles of Christ . To erre is incident to mans frailtie , and to d d As you papists doe . persist in an errour , is brutish , but to e e As you papists cannot abide to doe . acknowledge and recant an errour , is the worke of the holy Ghost , and a great argument of an humble and weake spirit , and therefore if you seeke to detract from Saint Austines doctrine by abraiding him with his Retractations you doe but séeke to quench the flaming fire with powring oyle vpon it ; but if you doe f f We insinuate that euery thing is not Gospel that S. Austine writes insinuate by alleaging of his Retractations , that he hath retracted any thing by me alleaged against you out of his workes , the booke is extant , let the iudge be brought foorth : your next allegation , whereby you seeke to extenuate Saint Austines authoritie , is the instabilitie of his g g His doctrine touching purgatorie , but now simply , as you insinuate . doctrine , for one while , say you , he affirmeth , another he denieth , another he doubteth ; it were an hard matter for you to perswade any man to credit you héerein , that hath read how famous Saint Austine was for his great learning amongst the Gentiles before the conuersion ; and how , after his conuersion , hée hath bene euer held for the most learned doctor and subtile disputer that euer flourished in the Church for who so h h Beleeue not vs , but your owne eyes , look and peruse the places . beleeueth you herein , must also beléeue therewithall , that S. Austine had neither learning , wit , nor regard of his repuputation : but let vs admit that such foule blots , as you do pretend , had dropped from his pen , is it not like think you , that in his i i What if he were not resolued when he wrote his Retractations , how then ? Retractations they should haue bin discouered and wiped away ? This might serue for answere of this friuolous obiection , concerning the instrabilitie of Saint Austines doctrine ; but because it is a string much harped on , let vs assay , by harping , whether it be a true cord or not : now do you k k Be like you will not know wheere , vnlesse it be shewed you . k k This place of Austine is cleere against limbus puerorum . shew me where Saint Austine doth denie purgatorie , as I haue shewed you where he hath affirmed it ? Pro. Austine in his 14. Chapter De verbis Apostoli , saith thus , The Lord who shall come to iudge the quicke and the dead , as the Gospel saith , shall diuide them all into two parts , whereof one shall bee placed on his right hand , and the other on his left ; to those on his right hand he shall say , Come ye blessed &c. The one he calleth his kingdome , the other damnation with the deuill , there is no third place left for infants ; and a little after he concludeth thus , if there shall be a right hand and a left , since we haue none other place by the Gospel , behold the kingdome of heauen is on the right hand . Pa. Héere is a faire l l There be fairer showes in Austine then this . shew , but all is not gold that glistereth ; S. Austine in that place , hauing to deale with the Pelagians , who held that children which die before baptisme , should ( by reason of their innocencie ) attaine vnto eternall saluation , but not vnto the kingdome of heauen ; and that children are to be baptized , not for eternall life , but for the kingdome of heauen : for confutation of that heresie , doth there labour to prooue that whosoeuer doth not appertaine to the kingdome of heauen , doth appertaine vnto damnation ; his argument is this . At the generall iudgement , Christ shall diuide the quicke and the dead into two parts , whereof one shal be on his right hand , another on his left : therefore children which die before baptisme , must either be on the right hand , to whom the kingdome of heauen doth appertaine ; or on the left , whose portion is m m That is damnation into euerlasting fire with the diuell and his Angels , Mat. 25.41 . I trow this is hell , not limbus puerorum . damnation : for , saith he , there remaineth no third place for infants . What maketh this place against purgatorie ? for they that doe allow low of Purgatorie , doe hold also that there are but two places , to wit , heauen and hell ; and that whosoeuer shall be placed in purgatorie for a time , doth notwithstanding appertaine to one of those two places , for a third place they likewise doe not know : behold how easie a matter it is to carpe at contrariety in any mans writings , be they neuer so plaine and perspicuous n n Heere the flood-gate is opened to a great deale of prophane , and irreligious talke . euen so doe the Iewes taxe the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie , and great appearance thereof there seemeth to be therein . S. Iohn saith , He that is borne of God , sinneth not ; And againe , in the same Epistle , he saith , If we say we haue no sinne , we deceiue our selues , and the trueth is not in vs : The Bee sucketh honie , and the Spider poyson , take away the authoritie of the Church , Councels , and Fathers , and leaue euery man to his owne o o As though fancy had no place in Councels , and fathers , but only in Scriptures . fancie in the interpretation of Scriptures , and open the fountain of all heresie and Atheisme . After your single incounter with Saint Austine , you seeke to ouerthrow the credite of all the Doctors at once , by taxing them with many grosse errors , I graunt the doctors had their errours and imperfections , so had S. Peter , for S. Paul withstood him to his face , and p p We doe not say they are . are your new writers of the purest stampe , free trow ye ? much lesse are Cronographers & writers of ciuil histories : what then ? shall we q q No , but resolute diuines . become Scepticke Philosophers ? what shall we not beléeue that which they do write out of their own knowledge , and wherof themselues were eye witnesses , and consequently shall we beleeue nothing but what we doe r r Yes , what we taste , smell , and feele too , Lord , what vaine chat is this ? heare and see ? If you will affoord an Historiographer any credite in these cases , affoord the Catholicke doctor the like in the same case , beléeue that which he writeth as an eye witnesse ; if not , beleeue an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers of them in a matter of fact , confirmed by the testimonie of their owne eyes : if not , yet beléeue them at the least wherein they doe produce themselues for eye witnesses , and s s All this is but impudent facing . a thousand other like witnesses with them , of this last sort are most of the testimonies of the doctors , which I haue produced against you : they write that prayers were made for the dead , that sacrifice was offered for the quicke and the dead , that it was vniuersally obserued in all Churches , they were present themselues , and heard and saw it done , and thousands moe with them , and were themselues principall agents in the doing of it . Now let vs see what those errors bée wherewith you seeke to bring the auncient doctors out of credite . Irenaeus held t t Belike Irenaeus neuer heard any newes of Purgatory . that the soules of the righteous should rest in a place for them appointed of God vntill the generall resurrection ; that Satan did not know his owne damnation before the comming of Christ . Tertullian , that second marriages were not lawfull . Hilarie , that Christ did walke vpon the water by the nature of his bodie . Cyprian held rebaptization , and so might I passe through the rest of these and such like errors , u u As though they were not deliberate assertions , but only scapes . escaped in the writings of the fathers ; Erasmus alleaged a threefolde reason . First ; the points wherein they erred , were not as then called in question , or , if they were , the Church had not as then determined of them . Secondly , they were constrained , for the confutation of heresies , to handle such high mysteries as were beyond their capacitie . Thirdly , in dealing earnestly against heretickes , they were sometime , with feruor , carried into the contrarie extreame . Now will I shew you the difference beeweene these and the like errours escaped in the writings of the fathers , and those points of doctrine wherein I haue cited them as witnesses against you ; the one they deliuer as their owne priuate opinion , the other set downe as a doctrine x x How knew they that , or you that they did so ? generally receiued , and practised through the vniuersall Church , the one is ( as the Prouerbe saith ) but one doctors opinion , the other an vniforme consent of many ; the one the Church hath reiected , the other it hath receiued and practiseth . Thus y y So may you see , you haue sayd nothing : may you see the reason why the doctors are to be reiected in the one , and receiued in the other , why we doe not exclude them out of our Church , as you haue excluded them out of yours . Pro. You shall find in the Fathers as many places against those points of doctrine , as you shall find for them , and besides that many bookes fathered vpon the fathers are bastards . Pa. It is a great argument of a y y It will at length pull the crowne from your Popes head , as desperate as you make it . desperate cause , when we sée the authoritie of any authenticke writer so plaine and direct against vs , as it cannot be auoyded by any glosse or colourable interpretation , to seeke to euade by carping at contrarietie in the same writer , and in so doing wée shall shew our selues more desirous to obscure a truth than to bring it to light : touching your last obiection , I am content vpon any reasonable cause of challenge , to forbeare to vouch any booke that you shall suspect of bastardy . Thus haue I answered all your cauils and calumniations obiected against the auncient doctors , which is your last refuge , for when you cannot tell how by some cunning interpretation or glosse to vnloose the knot ; your manner is to cut it in sunder , and to breake away .

The Answere .

WEe are come now to a great deale of void talke of the errors of the fathers , and doctors , and Austines retracting , and wauering in the doctrine of purgatorie . The first is confessed , not simply , but vnder hope that wee will also confesse that the doctors were not onely admired for their learning & pietie , but accepted also for the principall workemen , next vnto the Apostles , which cannot be confessed without iniurie to the Euangelists , and other that had extraordinary graces , and power from aboue a long time after the Apostles , Iren. lib. 2. 28. & lib. 5. 1. Eusebius histo. eccles. lib. 3. 34 & lib. 5. 7. 9. as appeareth in Irenaeus and Eusebius , besides that we may not thinke a few fathers , whose writings remaine extant , to be excellenter workemen than a thousand other , whose writings are lost , and their names forgotten in the world . These few doctors whose bookes wee haue , were worthy men , yet one more worthy than another , and no one of them nor all of them together , to be preferred to those that were before them . And heere let it be obserued that Tertullian , as he is a Montanist , is set down for one of of these admirable doctors of the Church , for he erred not in the case of second marriages while he was a Catholicke doctor , but when he was an hereticke and fallen from the Church ; nay see further how intollerably hee defaceth the fathers , when he goeth about to magnifie , for if they looke vpon them to handle high mysteries beyond their capacitie , and were caried in heat against heresie to the contrary extreame , verily their learning and piety may well be doubted of , and if they could not see the trueth vnlesse it were called into question , & determined by the Church , there is no great reason why they should be so highly admired , and had in reuerence .

What man ? why say you so ? the doctors had their errors and imperfections no otherwise then Saint Peter had , whom Saint Paul withstood to his face , and will you not admire and reuerence Saint Peter ? Yes , sir , that I will , for wee speake not here of errors in liuing , which neuer any but Christ was free from , but errors in writing , whereof Saint Peter was neuer guiltie , and therefore bethinke you how , this suspicious and irreuerend calling of Saint Peters credite into question , to cloake the fathers errours withall , can be the part of a good Catholicke , we beleeue Saint Peter neuer erred in any thing he hath written , but you shal hardly driue vs with all your wharting ; to beleeue the like of our new writers , or your old doctors , much lesse the autors of prophane Histories , but why keepes this man all this doe , trow ye ? would he haue vs pinne our religion vpon the sleeues of the doctors , and ciuill Historiographers too ? will nothing else please him ? Yes , hee tels you he will be content if you will credit an vniforme consent and harmonie of diuers doctors , producing themselues for eye witnesses , and a thousand other like witnesses with them : well , when I heare those thousand other speake , then he shall haue my answere , In the meane while haue we commended to him , and tell him that I cannot beleeue a million of thousands , when they say nothing ; and heere , I beseech you , note how his wit ebbes , and his tongue flowes beyond the bankes of all possibilitie , they write saith he , that praying and sacrificing for the dead , was vniuersally obserued in all Churches , they were present themselues and hard and saw it done , and thousands moe with them &c. Quid audio ? Did they heare and see it done in all Churches vniuersally ? this is no lie , my Lord , and that s all that I will say to it .

Now touching Austine , we so much the more admire him , in that he retracted his former errors , as many as hee could well-obserue in his owne workes , neither doe wee doubt , but that he would haue retracted more if he had liued longer , & could haue considered deliberately of all that hee had written , howbeit he wrote diuers bookes after his [ retractations ] , neither could he so narrowly looke into euery corner of his workes , but that many things worthy to be [ retracted ] , slipt through his fingers : to be short , his [ retractations ] do euidently shew , that as he was a good and an honest minded man , so he altered in opinion as hee grew in yeeres , and was better instructed by long experience and trauell in diuinitie , and so consequently , that he is so farre forth to bee receiued , as he buildeth vpon the foundation of the canonicall scripture , such building will stand without [ retracting ] , all other doctrine , as it begins in man , so man may end it , neither can it stand any longer than man listeth to vphold it .

This wauering in the matter of Purgatorie , our Papist denieth impudently , & cryeth in an agony , shew me where Saint Austine doth deny purgatorie , as I haue shewed you he hath affirmed it ? alas , he hath shewed Austines affirmation , out of the counterfeit sermons and Homilies neuer either written or preached by Saint Austine , which is a most simple kind of shewing , but why doth he aske where Austine denieth purgatorie , and neuer asketh one word where he doubteth of it ? These be fine fellowes that aske after such points as they thinke they can hold talke of , and can suffer other things to passe by , as if they saw him not : Howbeit our Protestant heere cites a place out of Austines Sermons , De verbis Apostoli , which is little to the purpose , Serm. 4. yet notwithstanding where our Papist answereth , that he knoweth no third place for infants , but either heauen or hell ; what doth he else but disclaime his [ limbus puerorum ] which Pope Innocent the third , Cap. maiores extra de bapt. and most of the schoolemen place aboue purgatorie , and will needs haue it to be eternall : but to helpe out our Protestant , let him take these places out of Austine against purgatorie , Hypognost . lib. 5. Primum locum fides Catholicocorum diuina authoritate credit regnum esse caelorum , secundum Gehennam , vbi omnis Apostata vel à fide Christi alienus aeterna supplicia experietur , tertium penitus ignoramus , imo nec esse in scripturis sanctis inueniemus , The first place the Catholicke faith doth by the authoritie of God beleeue to be the kingdome of heauen , the second to be hell , where euery Apostota and alien from the faith of Christ , shall be punished euerlastingly , a third place we knew not at all , neither shall we find in the holy scriptures that there is any such . Againe , In Ioh. tract. 49. Habent omnes animae cum de seculo exierint diuersas receptiones suas , habent gaudium bom , mali tormenta ; sed cum facta fuerit resurrectio , & bonorum gaudium amplius erit , & malorum tormenta grauiora , quando cum corpore torquebuntur , All soules after they goe out of the world , haue diuers rewardes , the good haue ioy , and the bad torments ; but when the resurrection shall come , the ioy of the good shall bee greater , and the torments of the bad more grieuous , when they shall be tormented with their bodies . Againe , In Psal. 32. Si texit peccata , noluit aduertere , si noluit aduertere , noluit animaduertere , si noluit animaduertere , noluit punire , noluit agnoscere maluit ignoscere , If we haue hid our sinnes , he would not see them ; if he would not see them , he would not iudge them ; if he would not iudge , he would not punish ; he would not acknowledge , he had rather pardon them . Againe , Ad Hesick . epist. 80. In quo quemque inuenerit suus nouissimus dies , in hoc eum comprehendet mundi nouissimus dies , quoniam qualis in die isto quisque moritur , talis in die illo iudicabitur , In Psal. 25. In what state any mans last day findeth him , in the same shall the last day of the world take him , because as a man dieth in this , so shall he bee in that day adiudged . And againe , Valeat mihiad perfectionem liberationis tantum praetium sanguinis Domini mei , So great a price of my Lords blood is sufficient for my perfect deliuerance . Sermon . 57. Adde to these , if you will , out of the Sermons Ad fratres in Heremo , Scitole quod cum anima á corpore euellitur , statim aut in Paradiso pro meritis bonis collocatur , aut certe pro peccatis in inferni Tartara praecipitatur . Know this , that so soone as the soule is taken out of the bodie , by and by it is either placed in Paradice for good deserts , or else certainly cast headlong into hell for sinnes .

Thus haue I shewed where Austine doth denie purgatorie , and though our Papist list not to heare of that side , yet let me shew him likewise where Austine doubteth of purgatorie , Encharid . cap. 69. Tale aliquid post hanc vitam fieri incredibile non est , & vtrum ita sit quaeri potest , That some such thing is done after this life it is not incredible , and whether it be so done it is a question . Ad dulcit . quaest. 1. & lib. de fide & oper. cap. 16. de ciuit . dei lib. 21.26 . Ibid. cap. 27. Againe , Siue in hac vita tantum homines ista patiuntur , siue etiam post hanc vitam talia quaedam iudicia subsequuntur , non abhorret quantum arbitror , aratione veritatis iste intellectus huius sententiae , Whether men suffer these things onely in this life , or whether after this life some such iudgements follow , this vnderstanding of this sentence is not without some shew of trueth as I suppose . Againe , Siue ibi tantum , siue hic & ibi , siue ideò hic vt non ibi , saecularia , quamuis à damnatione ventalia , concremantem ignem transitoriae tribulationis inueniant ; non redarguo , quia forfitan verum est , Whether things committed in this world though veniall in respect of damnation , doe find a transitorie fire of tribulation here onely , or here and there , or therfore here because not there ; I seeke not to conuince , because perhaps it is true . And againe , Quis sit iste modus , & quae sint ista peccata , quae ita impediunt peruentionem ad regnum Dei , vt tamen sanctorum amicorum meritis impetrent indulgentiam ? difficilimum est inuenire , periculosissimum definire , ego certè vsque ad hoc tempus , cum inde satagerem ad eorum indagationem , peruenire non potui , What is this manner , or what be those sins which so hinder the comming to the kingdome of heauen , that yet the merite of holy friends may obteine pardon for them ? it is very hard to find , and very perillous to determine : surely though I haue laboured earnestly to search , yet can I not find it out vntill this time .

These places be sufficient to shew Austines wauering in the matter of purgatorie , and if it were not for shame , I would shew also where he affirmeth it , because our Papist hath shewed it so sillily , yea , but it were a hard matter , to perswade any man to credite you herein : then let him credite his owne eyes , let him looke vpon the places , and consider of them , and they , I trow , will be sufficient to persuade so much as you say ; not so , I hope , for Austine was a great learned man before his conuersion , and after his conuersion the most learned doctor , and subtilest disputer that euer flourished in the Church , what then ? altering in iudgement is an argument of increase in learning , and our Papist himselfe told vs a while agoe , that to consist in errour is brutish if therefore Austine say one thing at one time , and afterward , vpon better triall and trauell , say otherwise at another ; I doe not see how it can hinder his estimation , much lesse proue him to haue neither learning , wit , nor regard of his reputation , as our Papist here without either learning or wit , hath concluded . What ? if a man set downe an errour , or many errours in his young dayes , doubt of them in his middle age ; and write the cleane contrary when he is of greater yeres and experience ; shall he therefore be thought to haue neither learning nor wit , nor regard of his reputation ? No , friend papist , it would not hurt your reputation a whit , to deny that in a new booke which you affirme in this , and to affirme that which you denie here , and to doubt of that whereof here you seeme to be resolute , remember your owne conclusion , to erre is incident to mans frailtie , but to persist in error , is brutish .

Touching the quickenesse and acutenesse of Austine in disputing : I easily confesse it , for hee was a learned doctor , and a most subtile disputer indeed ; yet a quicke wit doth soonest fall into contradiction , and the heat of a quick disputer , carieth him sometimes , as our papist telleth vs out of Erasmus , De Genes. ad liter . lib. 10. into the contrary extreame . Austine himselfe , speaking of Tertullian , saith thus , De Deo noluit aliter sapere , qui sane quoniam acutus est , inderdum contra opinionem suam visa veritate superatur , quid enim verius dicere potuit , quam id quod ait quodam loco , Esse corporale passibile est , debuit ergo mature sententiam qua paulò superius dixerat , etiam Deum corpus esse , neque enim arbitror eum ita desipuisse , vt etiam Dei naturam passibilem crederet , &c. He would not conceiue otherwise of God , who indeed because he was of quicke iudgement , sometimes he is ouercome by the sight of the truth contrary to his owne opinion ; for what could he speake more truly , than when hee saith in a certaine place , that to be bodily is to be passible , therefore he ought to haue altered that sentence in which he had said a little before , that God is a bodie , for I doe not thinke that he was so vnwise as to thinke that the nature of God is passible . Heere is a contradiction , namely to be bodily is to be passible , and God is bodily , which be the premises of a Syllogisme , and if you adde the conclusion , which ariseth of them , Ergo , God is passible , the falsehood of it will prooue the one of them to be false likewise : now the maior is most true , saith Austine , ergo , say I , the minor is false , and so consequently the one agreeth no better with the other than truth and falsehood , you will say then , debunt ergo mutare sententiam , it is true , but he changed it not for ought wee know , but left this , and some other contrarieties behind him vnretracted , yet was he still accounted a very learned man , Cyprian when he called for Tertullian , was woont to say , da magistrum , giue me my master , Austine saith , acutus est , he is a quicke and subtile disputer , and Erasmus , Inter Latinos Theologos multò omnium doctissimus Tertullianus , Tertullian was the learnedest by much , In praefat. oper. Hilaric , of the Latine diuines .

Now , where our papist still goeth on , and tels vs , after his absurd manner , that the Iewes tare the writings of the Euangelists with contrarietie , and that great apparance thereof seemes to be therein : heere is but a seeming of apparance against the Euangelists , and therefore , I hope , he is well able to stop any Iewes mouth in that behalfe , and to defend the writings of the Euangelists against seemings of apparance : if he cannot doe the like for the fathers and doctors , then hath he sayd nothing to purpose , but bred a suspition in his reader , that he had rather the Euangelists should miscarie , than the Fathers , and this suspition is yet increased , in that he accounteth the holy Scriptures without Churches , Fathers , and Councels , to be the fountaine of all Heresie and Atheisme , for may not a mans fancie mislead him in the fathers as well as the Scriptures , and sucke poyson out of the one , aswell as the other ? I am sure Dioscorus crieth out in the Councell of Chalcedon , Ego testimonia habeo sanctorum patrum Athanasij , Gregorij , Action 1. Ibidem . Cyrilli in multis locis , ego cum patribus eijcior , &c. I haue the testimonie of the holie fathers Athenasius , Gregorie , Cyrill in ma-many places , I am cast out with the Fathers &c. So Eutyches , Ego legi scripta beati Cyrilli , Athanasij , Ibid. Action . & sanctorum patrum . So Carosus , Ego secundum expositionem trecentorum decem & octo patrum sic credo , &c. I beleeue thus according to the testimonie of three hundred and eighteene Fathers . Heere bee Fathers and Councels alleaged by arrand heretickes as the grounds of their poyson : but of the Scripture , Ad pompeium cont. epist. Steph. de peccac . merit & remiss . lib. 1. 12. Cyprian saith , Si ad diuinae traditionis caput & originem reuertamur , cessat error humanus , If wee returne to the head and fountaine of Gods tradition , the error of man doth cease . And Austine , Scriptura sacra nec falli potest nec fallere , The holy Scripture can neither deceiue nor be deceiued . As for the Church he talkes of , if he be straitly examined , he will tell you he meanes the Church of Rome , and so no Scripture , nor enarration of Scripture may goe currant , but that which Rome will affoord vs , that s the Church which hee takes to be , as he said a while agoe , the sure rocke and pillar of trueth , De expresse . verbo Dei . Hosius saith , Si quis habeat interpretationem ecclesiae Romanae de loco aliquo scripturae , etiamsi nec sciat nec intelligat , an , & quomodo cum scripturae verbis conueniat , tamen habet ipsissimum verbum Dei , If any man haue the interpretation of the Church of Rome of some place of scripture , although he neither know not vnderstand , whether and how it doth agree with the words of the Scripture , yet he hath the very word of God . How like you this my maisters ? you need talke no more of Fathers and Councels , no , nor of learning , nor wit neither ; for the Church of Rome , whether it agree , or agree not with the words of the Scripture , will serue the turne , you may burne your bookes and goe about other businesse , the Church of Rome will watch for you , but sirs , I pray you tell vs ? wil your Church of Rome , when she hath giuen vs an interpretation , stand to it like a post , and neuer alter ? that would be knowen before we yeeld to this which you vrge vpon vs . Nicho. Casanus . No , we dare not promise you that , for we haue a great man , one Nicholas Cusanus once a Cardinall in the Church of Rome , who hath intituled a book which he hath written in defence of the Church , thus , De authoritate ecclesiae , & conciliorum supra , & contra scripturam , of the authoritie of the Church , & Councels aboue , & contrary to the Scripture . And in that booke he hath set downe , Praxis ecclesiae vno tempore interpretatur Scripturam vno modo , & alio tempore alio modo , nam intellectus currit cum praxi , &c. The practise of the Church interpreteth the Scriptures at one time one way , and at another time another way ; for the vnderstanding runneth with the practise . Marry then , fie vpon you and vpon your Church , our owne fancie will prooue as good an interpreter , as either you , or your Church .

Now let vs consider of his three differences betweene the errors of the Fathers , & those points of doctrine whereof we haue disputed , I pray you looke vpon them , and you shall find the two first to be the same , and the third little differing from the other two : the Fathers errors , saith he , were priuate opinions , that s the first , one doctors opinion , that s the next ; reiected of the Church , that s the last . Now , if this word reiected , be no more but not receiued or allowed , for the Church neuer condemned euerie seuerall errour of the Fathers by publicke sentence or decree ; then all three is but one , for one Doctors priuate opinion , includeth a non-allowance or approbation of the Church . Againe , the foresayd points of Doctrine , ( saith hee ) are set downe as receiued and practised through the vniuersall Church , that s the first ; vniformely consented vnto by many , that s the next ; receiued and practised by the Church , that s the last ; these three likewise , for ought may appeare may goe for one : and therefore this man delights rather in number than weight , and layeth his learning abroad , as wide and side as hee can , to fray men rather , than to teach them .

Howbeit , if wee giue him his differences to be as many as he would haue them , what differences be they ? Marry they be differences of errours from points of doctrine , and what bee those points of Doctrine , true or false ? Marry they bee true , else the Church would not receiue them and praise them : Why then you see this man laboureth to shew differences betweene errour and truth ; which is no controuersie , let him shew those points of Doctrine to be true , and we will easily yeeld that they differ from errour , but if they be errours and falshoods in religion , as they be indeed , the consent of the Church , cannot helpe them to bee truths . It is a fond conceit , to imagine that the Church receiueth & practiseth nothing that is erroneous , for if the Church cannot tread awrie , why saith Chrysostome , In oper. imperf. in Math. hom: 49. Ne ipsis quidem ecclesijs credendum est , nisi ea dicant vel faciant quae conuenientia sunt scripturis , We are not beleeue the Churches themselues , vnlesse they say and doe those thinges which are agreeable to the scriptures . If an vniforme consent of many cannot erre , why saith Austine , Ad Paulum Apostolum , ab omnibus qui aliter sentiunt literarum tractatoribus prouoco , Epist. 19 , ad . Ierom. I appeale to the Apostle Paul , from all other learned men that thinke otherwise . If the vniuersall Church can decree nothing but truth ; why saith the same Austine , Ipsa plenaria concilia quae fiunt ex vniuerso orbe Christiano , De bapt. cont. Donat. lib. 2. cap. 3. saepe priora posterioribus emendantur , Euen of plenarie Councels which are gathered out of all Christendome , the former are mended by the latter . And Gregorie Nazianzen , Ad procopium . Concilia non minuunt mala , sed augent potius , Councels doe not diminish , but encrease euils rather . As for the Church of Rome which our Papist takes for his vniuersall Church , In Math. Can. 8. S. Hilarie giueth vs a rule to cast her state by , saying , Ecclesiae , intra quas verbum Dei non vigilauerit , naufragae sunt , The Churches , in which the word of God doth not watch , haue suffered ship-wracke . Wherefore , if there be any grace in the Romish Church , let mee councell her , not to bragge and vaunt that Christ hath prayed for Peters faith , Luk. 22.32 . Math. 16.8 . Luk. 22.57 . and that she is built vpon a rocke that cannot be shaken : for Saint Peters faith fayled almost as soone as our Sauiour had done praying , and therefore there is no doubt , but she may be shaken . This is Saint Pauls councell too as well as mine , for thus hee writes euen to the Church of Rome , when she was in better case than she is now , by size ase and the dice , Rom. 11.20 . &c. [ Thou standest by faith , bee not high minded , but feare , for if God spared not the naturall branches , take heed he spare not thee , for if thou continue not in Gods bountie , thou shalt also be cut off . ]

Thus much of his differences ; now let vs see how he doth apply them to the assoyling of our Protestants obiections : [ You may see the reason , ( saith he ) why the Doctors are to be reiected in the one , ] that s in their priuate opinions , [ and receiued in the other ] points of doctrine , [ and why we doe not exclude them out of our Church , as you haue excluded them out of yours . ] You shall not need exclude them , for they neither are , nor euer were , or will bee of your Church , and where you say [ wee haue excluded them ; ] it is but a cast of your tongues office , which cannot be made good by any of your differences , we exclude their errours , not them , and these points , how generally soeuer they were receiued and practised , are no better than errours ; Howbeit , ( I beseech you ) obserue the temeritie of this man , who talkes thus hand ouer head of receiuing Fathers , and yet some of these Fathers he nameth were schismatickes and heretickes , as Tertullian for example , who was not [ homo ecclesiae , Contr. Heluid . Austin . de Haeres . ] as Ierome saith , and Saint Austine hath registred him for an Hereticke and Schismaticke too in his Booke de haeresibus ad quod vult Deum ; neither is Hilarie , howsoeuer the Romish Church hath made him a Saint , ouer hastily to be receiued , De Trinitate libr. 10. if he spake as hee thought , that Christ had Corpus ad patiendum , non naturam ad dolendum , A bodie to suffer , not nature to be grieued ; Ibid. lib. 12. & alibi . and knew not whether the holy Ghost were God proceeding from the Sonne , as well as the Father , and to be adored as well as promerited ; Hierom. Ierome against the Luciferians , saith , That Hilarie did Segregare se cum suis vermitis , & nouum balneum aperire , Did separate himselfe with his wormlings , and open a new bath , and wrote Bookes against the Church , De haereticis rebaptizandis , Of rebaptizing Heretickes .

Obserue further , that our Papist reiects Ireneus , Tertullian , Hilarie and Cyprian , in their priuate opinions which he specifieth , and receiueth them in the other points in controuersie , whereof they say nothing at all , neither hath hee alleaged any one of these Fathers to that purpose , but Tertullian onely , who speakes not of these points after the popish fashion . Is not this a proper reiecting and receiuing thinke ye ? he reiecteth for a [ priuate something , ] and receiueth for an [ vniuersall nothing , ] yet the more vniuersall an errour is , the more hurtfull it is , and therefore till he prooue these points to bee true , as well as vniuersall , hee doth confirme , not answere our obiections , yet were they neuer any of them so vniuersall , as Cyprians rebaptization , Austines necessitie of communicating , and some other errours of the Fathers . Thus haue I taken away his answeres , and vnloosed his knots without cutting , and shewed him withall that not one cause , but his hanging of his Faith and Religion vppon the Doctors authority , is desperate .

The Dialogue . Sectio XXIIII .

PRo. All that you haue hetherto sayd being admitted , yet cannot the Church of Rome , that now is , bee the true Church of Christ , because it holdeth many other points of Doctrine directly contrarie to the word of God ; as the doctrine of Iustification by our owne works , whereby you doe attribute your saluation vnto your owne workes , and to the merites of dead Saints , as if they had workes sufficient for their owne saluation , and a surplussage to be bestowed vpon others , which you terme workes of supererrogation , your doctrine of free-will , whereby you doe attribute vnto man an absolute power to doe all good workes , and thereby to merite heauen . And your doctrine of the keys , whereby you doe attribute to the Pope and his Priests power to forgiue the sinnes both of the quicke and dead , an easie way to heauen for such as haue money and are disposed so to dispose it ; is not this doctrine as contrarie to the word of God , as light vnto darkenesse ? Pap. I will answere you herein as briefely as I can , desiring you first to a a Which you seeme not to vnderstand your selfe . vnderstand rightly the doctrine of the Church of Rome in these points , and then to iudge indifferently . First therefore , concerning iustification by workes , we doe hold with Dauid , that the iust man offendeth b b Then must hee doe seuen good workes , else can he not bee iustified by workes . 7. * * Pr. 24 , 16. It is Salomon , not Dauid , nor doth Salomon say seuen times a day , that is no addition to the text . times a day ; we doe acknowledge also the death of Christ to be sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world ; we doe confesse that euery good and perfect gift commeth from aboue , and that our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth , yet we doe hold therewithall , that our good workes , such as they are , being clensed in the bloud of Christ , are both c c They may be acceptable , but meritorious they cannot be . acceptable vnto God , and meritorious , which we doe ground vpon the promise of our Sauiour Christ , where he saith , he that giueth to one of these little ones a cup of cold water , shall not want his d d What reward ? temporall or eternall , or what ? reward , grace goeth before and draweth vs vnto good workes , our will consenteth and worketh together with the grace of God , so that ( as S. Austine saith ) Tractat. 3. primi cap. Iohannis , God crowneth his owne gifts in vs , and giueth vs grace for grace , this is our Doctrine of Iustification by workes , wherein we doe e e Then nothing that is good in man , can merite . ascribe whatsoeuer is good in man vnto God as vnto the Fountaine : attributing nothing vnto our selues , f f This tale will hardly agree within it selfe . but the libertie of our will , whereby to apprehend the grace of God offered vnto vs , which frée will also we doe acknowledge to be the gift of God . Concerning the merits of dead Saints , we doe hold that as God doth many times spare the wicked for the righteous that are liuing among them : and shewe mercie vnto thousands in them that loue him , and kéepe his commaundements : euen so he doth many times spare the liuing for the righteous sake , that are departed hence , g g You are deceiued , it doth not appeare there . as appeareth in the 2. of the Kings , Cap. 13. Where you shall find that the Children of Israell were deliuered from the hand of King Aram , for Abraham , Isaak , and Iacobs sake , whereby h h You must prooue it better , before I can see it . you sée that the merits of dead Saints are auaileable vnto the liuing , whereupon we may conclude further , that if the children of Israel were spared for Abrahams sake who was dead , that it was lawfull for the Iewes to pray vnto God , that he would deliuer them i i That is , for the couenant sake made with Abraham , which being graunted , you are at a stop . for Abrahams sake , which being graunted , why is it not as lawfull for Christians to pray vnto God to be mercifull vnto their sinnes , for Saint Peter and Saint Pauls sake ? This Doctrine was beléeued and practised in the Church in Saint Austines time , as appeareth Can. 40. Meditationum , where he prayeth to be deliuered from all euill , by the praiers of the Patriarkes , by the merits of the Prophets , &c. And more than this , the Church of Rome doth not attribute vnto the merits of Saints .

The Answere .

HEere our Protestant layeth three capitall errours to the charge of the Church of Rome . First , iustification by our owne workes , and the merites of dead Saints . Secondly , free-will to merite heauen . Thirdly , forgiuing sinnes by the power of the keys , Mar. 2 , 7 , & Luk. 5 , 21. which the Scribes and Pharisies , as blind as they were , knew and professed to be blasphemous , [ herein I will answere you ( saith our Papist ) as briefely as I can , ] yea , but when shall wee haue your briefe answere ? ] Marry [ first I must desire you ( saith he ) to vnderstand rightly the doctrine of Rome in these points ; ] Well , but will you then be so good as [ answere vs as briefely as you can ? ] Yes marrie will I , for I will say nothing at all , and that s as briefe an answere as can be deuised . Thus this mans pleasure is to delude vs with expectation of an answere , which hee ( God wote ) is not able to afford vs , and therefore we must be content with [ we hold , ] and [ we confesse , ] and what s that thinke you ? Marry , [ the iust man offendeth dayly , the death of Christ is sufficient for the sinnes of the whole world , and our righteousnesse is as a polluted cloth , ] which is sufficient to perswade any man that is not contentious , that we are not iustified by our workes , for that which is sufficient needeth not to be pieced and patched with a polluted clowt of our righteousnesse , yea but our workes iustifie not so long as they bee polluted , but after they are clensed in the blood of Christ , and so they are both acceptable and meritorious : Alas man , that s not the question whether they be acceptable and meritorious ; but whether they iustifie , and the filly fellow himselfe , telling vs that our workes are clensed in the blood of Christ , tels vs withall , that we are iustified not by our workes , Act. 15 , 9 , & Mar. 7 , 21. that want clensing , but by faith in the blood of Christ , which clenseth our works , and makes them acceptable ; howbeit , all the world together in a heape will neuer be able to proue , that works polluted with an arrogant conceit or intention of iustifying , can bee possibly clensed in the blood of Christ , his blood can no way else clense that which euacuateth his crosse and passion , but by taking it away quite , and reforming the proud conceits of such heretickes .

And touching meritoriousnesse , the verie name is odious to the seruants of God ; Paul saith , 1. Cor. 4 , 4. Luk. 17 , 10. [ I know nothing by my selfe , yet am I not thereby iustified , ] and our Sauiour hath taught vs to say , wee are vnprofitable seruants , and haue done that which our dutie bound vs vnto , when wee haue done all that is commaunded , but what should I labour to take away merites , which this man himselfe groundeth vppon the promise of Christ ? Genes. 15 , 6. Ro. 4 , 3 , 9 , 13. Galat. 3.18 , 22 , &c. I hope the promise of Christ was free , and must be layd hold vpon by faith , not workes , as Abraham did , for hee beleeued God , and it was counted to him for righteousnesse . Againe , this promise may bee vnderstood of temporall rewards , which the Lord bestoweth oftentimes vpon such as neither be , nor euer shall be iustified , beside a cup of cold water , Cap. 20 , 23. can merite no great matter , vnlesse it bee such water , as wee read of in the Epistle to the Hebrewes , Math. 10 , 42. Mar. 9 , 41. adde to this that our Sauiour speakes of doing good to his Disciples , whom hee sent to preach in the Cities of Israel , for so Marke expoundeth it . To be short , here is a reward spoken of , which we denie not , for he that freely promised it , is true of his word and promise that hee made to a thousand generations , Psal. 105 , 8. yet here is nothing sayd of Iustification , I hope no man lookes to bee iustified by giuing a cup of cold water .

But now ( I trow ) hee comes to the point , [ grace goeth before , ( saith he ) and draweth vs vnto good works , our will consenteth , and worketh together with the grace of God , and so God crowneth his owne gifts in vs , as Saint Austine saith : ] Indeed Saint Austine saith , Coronat dona sua , non merita tua , He crowneth his owne gifts , not thy merites ; speaking of the Apostle Saint Paul . And againe , Coronat in nobis Deus dona misericordiae suae , God crowneth in vs the gifts of his owne mercie . But what s this to [ iustification by workes ? ] As for that which he addeth in the same tractate , that [ we receiue grace for grace ; ] he tels you that the first of these graces is faith , Accepimus de plenitudine eius , primò gratiam ; rursum accepimus gratiam pro gratia , quam gratiam primò accepimus ? fidem , in fide ambulantes , in gratia ambulamus , We haue receiued of his fulnesse , first grace ; againe we haue receiued grace for grace ; what grace haue we first receiued ? faith , walking in faith , we walke in grace . Againe , Si consequutus es istam gratiam fidei , eris iustus ex fide , iustus enim ex fide viuit , If thou hast obtained this grace of faith , thou shalt bee iust by faith , for the iust shall liue by faith . Moreouer thus he expounds gratiam pro gratia , Ipsa fides gratia est , ( saith he ) Et vita aeterna gratia est pro gratia , Faith it selfe is grace , and eternall life is grace for grace . And againe , De plenitudine eius omnes accepimus , de plenitudine misericordiae eius , de plenit adine bonitatis eius accepimus , quid ? remissionem peccatoram vt iustificaromus ex fide , & in super quid ? gratiam pro gratia , idest , prohac gratia , in qua ex fide viuimus , recepturi samas aliam , Of his fulnesse haue we all receiued , of the fulnesse of his mercie , of the fulnesse of his goodnesse haue we receiued : What ? forgiuenesse of sinnes , that we may be iustified by faith , and what more ? grace for grace , that is to say , for this grace , in which we liue by faith , we shall receiue another . Now then , where our Papist talkes of [ grace going before , ] let him tell vs plainely without clowding whether it be faith or not : if it bee faith ; then hee pleads our cause , and lets his owne fall ; if it bee not faith , then let him intreat Saint Austine to hold his peace .

Moreouer , see ( I pray you ) how handsomely this mans dreames agree with the word of God : For whereas Saint Paul saith , Rom , 3 , 24 , & 11.6 , Eph. 2 , 8 9 , we are iustified freely by grace , and not of works , hee is not ashamed to talke of grace going before , which draweth vs at length , to worke together with the grace of God , as if the grace of God in Christ Iesu , were not able to iustifie vs without the assistance of our workes , or as if the Apostle did not euidently exclude workes , when hee sayth in one place , wee are freely iustified , and in another , if by grace , not of workes , else were grace no grace . Besides this the same Apostle saith , that if Abraham were iustified by workes , he hath wherein to reioyce , but no man , Rom. 4 , 2. Rom. 4 , 2. & 3 27 , Eph. 2.9 . Rom. 4 , 5. &c. Rom. 4 , 4. Rom. 11.35 . De Rom. pont. lib. 3. cap. 23 , & Aurithes . 2 cont. Chytraeum . no not Abraham himselfe , hath any thing wherein to reioyce with God . Ergo , no man liuing is iustified , or euer was or shal be iustified by workes . No , no [ faith is accounted for righteousnesse to him that worketh not , saith Saint Paul , ] he that worketh hath his wages , neither by faith nor by fauour , but by debt , and who is he that hath giuen , or can giue to God first , and he shall be recompensed ?

A man would thinke such euident testimonies as these be , should bee past the reach of all wrangling ; Yet Bellarmine tels vs , that Abrahams works , which Paul speakes of , proceeded from nature without either faith or grace , Cap. 12.3 . & cap. 15 , 6. Cap. 11.8 . & Act. 7.2 . &c. as if Paul had spoken of Socrates , or Aristides , not of Abraham the Father of the faithfull ; yet I am sure he had the righteousnes of faith before he was called Abraham , as appeareth in Genesis , and the Author to the Hebrewes testifieth , that hee had faith before hee went out of Chalde , to dwell in Charran . Now ( I beseech you ) must wee needs thinke , that Paul speakes of such workes as Abram wrought in Mesopotamia , when hee and his Father Terah serued strange Gods , Iosh. 24. not of such as Abraham wrought afterward , when hee was called away from his Fathers house , kinred , and countrey ?

Moreouer , the same Iesuite tels vs , that there is a second kinde of workes , which proceed from faith and Gods grace , and those works doe but disponere ad reconciliationem cum Deo , & remissionem peccatorum . Dispose vs to reconciliation with God , and remission of sinnes . But what doth faith and Gods grace in the meane time ? doe they still bring forth good workes , and good workes a disposition , and so neuer actually reconcile vs ? Marrie looke the Tridentine councell for your answere , Ideò gratis iustificatur homo , quia nec fides nec : opera , iqu● iustificationem praecedunt , ipsam merentur , nimirum ex iustitia quasi eiusmodi operibus esset debita iustificatio , A man is therefore freely iustified , because neither faith nor workes which goe before iustification doe deserue it , to wit , of right , as if iustification were due to such workes . Well sayd , hold you to that , and goe no further , for wee teach not , that faith properly iustifieth , but layeth hold vpon Christ , that iustifieth the vngodly , & makes them blessed by imputation of his righteousnesse without works , as Paul teacheth out of Dauid , Rom. 4 , 5 , 6. but here followeth a [ tamen , ] that marres all , Fatemur tamen haec opera , quatenus ex fide & adiutorio diuino proficiscuntur , diuina esse opera , & suo modo mereri , hoc est , impe●rare peccatorum remissionem , Yet we confesse that these workes , as they proceed from faith and the help of God are diuine , and doe merite after their manner , that is to say , obtaine remission of sinnes . But ( I beseech you ) tell vs , how did this man speake of them before ? did hee not vnderstand them as proceeding from faith and Gods grace , when hee sayd , Haec apera non dicimus esse meritoria , We doe not say that these workes are meritorious . And out of Trent Councell , Ideò gratis iustificatur homo , quia nec fides , nec opera merentur iustificationem quasi eiusmodi operibus esset debita , A man is therefore freely iustified , because neither faith , nor workes which goe before iustification doe deserue it , to wit , of right , as if iustification were due to such workes . Thus wily beguiles himselfe , for though the truth sticke in his teeth ; yet all his tamens , and quasies , and quatenusses cannot smother it . Wherefore let those men talke of grace , as holily as they lift , yet when they attribute their iustification to their workes of the law , either in part or in whole ; they abrogate the grace of God , either in part or in whole , and so either diminish or disanull the glorie of the crosse of Christ . Well , saith Austine , Detur totum Deo , tutiores viuimus si totum Deo demus , Galat. 2 , 21. De bono . perseuer . cap. 13. non autem nos illi ex parte , & nobis ex parte commuttimus , Let vs giue all to God , wee liue more safe if we giue all to God , and not if wee commit our selues to him in part , and in part to our selues . And so Bellarmine confesseth , De Iustificat . lib. 5 , Cap: 7. when the fit is ouer ; for thus hee writes , Propteer incertitudinem propriae iustitiae , & periculum inanis gloriae tutissimum est , fiduciam totam in sola Dei misericordia & benignitate repanere . Because of the weakenesse of our owne righteousnesse , and danger of falling into vaine glorie , it is the safest way for vs to repose our whole trust in the mercie and fauour of God also .

Touching free-will , or libertie of will , we shall speake of it anone in his order and place , in the meane time see , I pray you , how your Papist doth part stakes with God , wee attribute nothing to our selues , ( saith he ) but the libertie of our will . And againe , [ wee acknowledge our free-will to bee the gift of God , ] so free-will is attributed to God , and to our selues too . Now let him tell vs whether this gift come by nature or by grace , if by nature , then grace is excluded , vnlesse ye confound nature and grace with the Pelagians : if by grace ; then our will must not worke together with the grace , as he sayd before , but follow after grace , as an effect and fruit of regeneration , but to leaue this till anone , wee are nowe come , from our owne merites , to the merites of dead Saints , which laboured so hard in their life time , that they earned heauen for themselues , and left a surplussage to helpe others , which is cleane contrarie to the law of works , which saith , doe this and thou shalt liue ; Rom. 3.27 . and not let another doe it , and thou shalt liue : we must either bee saued by the law that saith , Doe this , or by the Gospell that saith , Rom. 10.5 , 6 , 7 , &c. Beleeue this , Nihil est tertium , There is no third : No is ? doth not the Lord spare the wicked for the righteous sake , that liue among them ? yes that he doth , but hee doth not saue , one for anothers sake ; temporall bleshngs , and eternall saluation are not both of one weight , but what of that ? marry euen so God doth many times spare the liuing for the righteous sake that are departed hence . This fellow hath forgotten what hee should prooue , for the question is not whether the Lord doth temporally spare the liuing for the dead sake , but whether the merites of dead Saints can saue them from hell , and bring them to heauen ; this is a farre greater matter , 2. Reg. 13. than the deliuerance of the Children of Israel from the hands of the King of Aram , vnlesse the King of Aram were the Deuill of hell : Howbeit , Rom. 11.28 , there is another place in the new Testament , that fits his turne better , where it is said , Rom. 11.28 . Lib. 2 , 13. that the Iewes were beloued for the Fathers sakes , yet notwithstanding both this place , and that other of the Kings , is not to be vnderstood of the Fathers merits , whereof Abraham himselfe had none to spare , Rom. 4 , 2. but of the free promise and couenant made vnto the Fathers , for so it is written expresly to the Romanes , Rom. cap. 11.27 . Cap. 13.23 . and more expresly in the second of Kinges , though your Papist heere hath no list to see it , and therefore where hee inferreth that a man may as well pray to God to be mercifull to his sinnes for Saint Peter and Saint Pauls sake , hee ouer-reacheth as tyred Hackneys vse to doe , vnlesse hee can shewe , that God made the like couenant with Peter and Paul , that hee made with the Fathers .

Yea , but there bee other places , where not onely the couenant is remembred , but also the iustice and holynesse of the Fathers and Patriarkes , as for example in the Psalmes , [ Lord , Psal. 132.1 : remember Dauid with all his humilitie or affliction . ] This is one of Bellarmines quotations , more easily answered than quoted , De sanct. beattit . lib. 18. cap. 19. 2. Sam. 6. & 1. Cron. 13 & 15. for this is a Psalme appointed to bee sung in Dauids life time when the Arke was brought from Baalath in Kiriathiarim , or , from the house of Obed Edom ; and whereas the same man alleadgeth another place out of the Kings , where it is sayd , that for Dauids sake , the Lord gaue King Abijam a light in Ierusalem , 1. Reg. 15.4 , 5 that is , a Sonne to raigne after him , because Dauid did that which was right in the sight of the Lord . I answere , that this was a condition annexed vnto the couenant made with Dauid and his posteritie , 1. Cron. 28.7 . as Dauid himselfe giueth it out againe to Salomon his Sonne .

Touching Austines Bookes of Meditations , I will meditate vpon the matter before I admit it for Canonicall ; yet me thinkes crauing mercie for our sinnes at Gods hand for Peter and Pauls sake , and attributing saluation and deliuerance from all euill to the merits of dead men , bee they Patriarks , or bee they Apostles , or Prophets , or whosoeuer else liuing or dead , being so derogatorie to the passion and obedience of the Sonne of God , should be forborne for verie shame , if the feare of God cannot bridle vs . De Sanctor : beat . lib. 1. ca. 17. Bellarmine a Captaine Papist sets downe this for a generall rule ; Sancti non sunt immediati intercessores nostri apud Deum , sed quicquid à Deo nobis impetrant , per Christum impetrant , Saints are not immediate intercessors for vs with God , but whatsoeuer they obtaine of God for vs , they obtaine it by Christ . I hope per Christum , by Christ , doth include Christi merita , Christs merites , for so the same popish Doctor confesseth , willing vs to note three seuerall persons in our prayers , Vnam ipsiùs Dei , à quo petimus ; alteram Christi , per cuius meritum petimus ; tertiam eius qui petit , One of God himselfe ; the second of Christ through whose merite we aske ; the third his that asketh . And so concluding , that neither the first , nor the second may be attributed to dead Saints : and therefore to craue mercie , not for Christs sake , but for Peter and Pauls sake , and to bee deliuered from all euill , not by the merites and mediation of Christ , but by the merites of the Prophets , or the Patriarkes , or whosoeuer else dead or aliue , is not allowed by his owne Doctors .

Yea , but the last words of that Chapter , De Sanctorum beatitudine , teach you , that we mention Saints in our prayers after this forme , Concede nobis Deus , intercessione huius sancti , tale beneficium per Christum dominum nostrum , Grant vs O God , by the merite of such a Saint , such a benefit through Christ our Lord . I graunt you that this is set downe as a patterne of Catholicke prayer , wherein by intercession , he vnderstandeth not onely the prayers , but also the merites of dead Saints , for so wee learne before in the same Chapter , in these words , Sancte Petre da mihi hoc & illud tuis precibus & meritis , Saint Peter giue me this or that , by thy prayers and merits : Also per Christum , is as much to say , as per Christi preces & merita , by Christs prayers and merits , as I shewed before . Now shew vs how you can tel , that either hic sanctus , or haec sancta hath or will pray , or pawne their merits for you ? and if you know it not ; what makes you so bold , as to speake more to God , than you know to bee true ? Againe , the liuing know not , whether the merits of these or those Saints bee drawne drie , for they cannot supererrogate more than they haue , Bellar. de purg . lib. 2. cap. 2 ▪ haue still , and giue still , they cannot without a new supply , and supply they can haue none after this life : so likewise the dead know not whether their prayers and merites shall preuaile , vnlesse they knew who bee chosen , who bee reprobates , that cannot bee knowne , because God hath sealed it , as Paul saith , the foundation of God of remaineth sure , 2. Tim. 2 , 19. and hath this seale , the Lord knoweth who are his , &c. Wherefore either the Saints pray , and bestow their merits at all aduenture without faith , or assurance of Gods acceptance , which Peter Lumbard likes not of : Lib. 4 , distinct. 45. or else this popish doctrine , is but a dreame of a drie Summer . Thirdly , it would be knowne , when these superfluous workes are made acceptable to God ? Is it as soone as the breath is out of the Saints mouth , or before , or else a week , or a month , or a yeere after , or when else ? if before , or presently after his death , as they must either begin then or neuer , then Christ hath done that which belongeth to him alreadie , so as wee need not now conclude our praiers with per Christum dominum nostrum . Last of all , I would know whether any of these Saints , that had so many spare works , did themselues in their time , pray after Bellarmines popish fourme ? did they pray that other Saints , that were dead before them , would procure them this or that benefit , which they had need of ? either they knewe their owne stoare , or they knew it not ; if they knew it , they were much to blame to ioyne prayer with the Church after Bellarmines patterne , and so to lauish needlesly the treasure of the Church , wheras they might haue prayed , as neuer any durst pray , Lord , graunt me this or that , for my owne merites sake ; if they knewe it not , and so continued all their life time , howe come wee to knowe it when they are dead ? Iwis , it is not the Popes Canonization that can stoppe this gappe , for it cannot bee shewed that euer Pope presumed to canonize any one Saint before the time of Charles the great , and if there had been any certaine rule to dubbe Saints by in Austines time , hee would neuer haue sayd , Multorum corpora honorantur in terris , quorum animae torquentur in Gehenna , Many mens bodies are honoured in earth , whose soules are tortured in hell . Wherefore it behooues our good Catholickes to looke better about them , before they put themselues and their prayers to so dangerous a venter .

Now in conclusion , let mee intreat you to note further , how these men open their owne shame there , where they would faine hide it , for when Bellarmine knewe , that the Church of Rome prayed to the Virgine Marie , and the Apostles not as secondarie mediators , but principals : thus hee slubbers vp the matter , as though it were but a triflle , De Sanct. beat . lib. 1. ca. 17 Non agimus de verbis , saith he , sed de sensu verborum ; nam quantum adverba licet dicere , S. Petre miserere met , salua me , aperi mihi aditum coeli , &c. dummodo intelligamus salua me , & miserere mei orando pro me , da mihi hoc & illud tuis praecibus & meritis , Wee deale not about the wordes , but about the sense of the wordes ; if we respect the wordes , it is lawfull to say , Saint Peter haue mercie vpon me , saue me , open mee the gate of heauen , so that wee vnderstand , saue mee , and haue mercie vpon me , by praying for me , and giue me this and that by the prayers and merits . As if he should say , Be sure ye name Peter , or the Virgine Marie , or the Saints to whome ye pray , else all is marred , but God the Father , 1. Tim. 2 , 5. and Christ his sonne , the onely mediator between God and man : You may vnderstand them as accidentall implements , that may adesse & abesse sine interitu subiecti . You neede not care greatly for naming them , for the holy Virgine Gods mother , and Peter , and Paul , and the rest of Gods friends , will excuse the matter . Thus these men can remember dead Saints , and let God , and his Christ go , as though they counted it but a small matter to forget God , Psa. 9.17 . Rom. 10 , 9.10 . and knewe not that we must confesse the Lord Iesus with our mouthes , as well as beleeue in him in our hearts . Howbeit , they that forget the mediation of Christ in their Masse-booke , Durand . lib. 4. parte 2. vide Sect. 8. where they pray for the acceptation of his bodie and blood , and that God would looke vpon them , propitio ac sereno vultu , ( for they cannot pray pro Christo , and per Christum both at once ) will hardly remember it when they are let loose , to wander in the wildernesse of Bellarmines Intelligamus .

The Dialogue . Sectio XXV . Free-will .

COncerning Frée-will , wée doe say with Saint Iames , that euerie good and perfect gift commeth from aboue , and with Saint Paul , Deus operatur in nobis & velle & perficere : and wée must not denie that which our Sauiour Christ hath affirmed , Nemo venit ad me nisi pater meus traxerit eum , No man commeth vnto me , vnlesse my Father shall drawe him : yet we doe say with Saint Austine , that this a a yet Austine elsewhere makes it to be more , than perswading , looke the answere . drowsing , is as the pleasant pasture draweth the shéepe , and not a violent drawing , as a Beare drawne to the stake , man can doe no good workes except he be drawne , vnlesse he be inspired from aboue , but being b b No maruell , for then we are regenerate and iustified alreadie , yet haue wee then no freedome to refuse . so drawne and inspired , it is then in the election of mans frée-will , either to be obedient therevnto , or else to refuse the same , and to quench the spirite as Saint Paul calleth it , Diabolus dat consilium , saith S. Austine , sed Deo auxiliante nostrum est eligere , vel repudiare quod suggerit , Homil. 12. If there be no power in man to repent , or to doe good workes , c c Because God by that means worketh repentance in vs . 2. Tim. 2 : 25. how is it that the Scriptures doe so often exhort vs to repentance , newnesse of life , and good workes , and threaten gréeuous punishments to those that will not doe that which ( as you say ) they d d The fault is in themselues , not in God . This is the verie obiection of the Pelagians answered by Saint Austine lib. de grat . & lib. arbitr. cap. 16. cannot do ? For your full satisfaction herein , read Saint Austine , sermone 7. de verbis Apostoli , Irenaeus libro 4. cap. 72. Saint Hilarie vpon 118. Psal. Epiphanius Tom. 1. Haeres . 16.

The Answere .

ABsolute [ freewill ] either to good or euill is hardly to be found vpon the earth , yet our papist heere makes as though he had found it , and might hold it by Saint Austine , though Saint Iames and Saint Paul say no , howbeit mans [ freewill ] may begge his bread well inough , if it haue no better friends then Saint Austine , for where that good father in his Tractats vpon Iohn , Tract. 26. saith that the father draweth vs vnto Christ , as a greene bough draweth a sheepe : you must vnderstand that this green bough resembleth our faith , as our Sauiour expoundeth it , Ioh. 6.64 . &c. Ad simplician . lib. 1. quaest. 2. and Saint Austine else where is bold to say , Quis habet in potestate sua , vt sua mens tali viso tangatur , quid voluntas moueatur ad fidem . Who hath it in his owne power , that his mind might be touched with such a sight , whereby his will may be moued vnto faith . Againe , you must presuppose that the sheepe is hungry , and is not afraid of him that holdeth & offereth that bough , otherwise he may hold it till his armes ake : Matth , 5.6 . 1. Iohn 4.18 . Ephes. 3.12 . and euen so it fareth with the sheepe of Christ , for they are first brought to hunger and thirst after righteousnesse , and to haue the loue of God which casteth out feare , before they will regard the pleasant pasture that is offered vnto them , and therfore the same father else where saith , that the Lord draweth men , De correct . & gratia ad Valantin . cap. 14. Ibid. cap. 2. Suis voluntatibus , sed quas ipse operatus est , By their wils , but yet such as himselfe hath wrought in them . And againe , Ideo volunt , quia Deus operatur vt sic velint , Therefore they will , because God worketh that they will say so . Besides this , the sheepe is naturally drawen to feede vpon a greene bough when she is hungry , but our hunger after righteousnes is not naturall , but Gods extraordinary and supernaturall blessing , Matth. 5.6 . which may not be confounded with nature , vnlesse we will shake hands with Pelagius the hereticke ; and yet if you consider of that generall flying power to choose or refuse good or euill , which the papists call grace , for feare of Pelagianisme : you shall hardly discerne it from nature , and therefore well saith Saint Austine against Pelagius , and Celestius , and the papists their successors , Lib. 1. cap. 10. Non satis est confiteri qualemcunque gratiam , sed illam qua per sua deamur , qua trahamur , & qua detur ipsum bonum , It is not inough to confesse any kind of grace , but that by which wee are perswaded , by which we are drawne , and by which the good it selfe is giuen .

Touching the place in Austines Homilies ; I answere in a word that [ eligere ] and [ repudiare consililum diaboli ] is [ nostrum ] the one by nature , Ephes. cap. 2.23 . the other by grace : by nature we are the children of wrath , and walke after the counsell of the deuill , but by grace wee haue some freedome from that captiuitie , yet would I wish you to haue a more particular regard of this allegation : man saith your papist can doe no good worke except he be drawen , that s true , and inspired from aboue , that s true to , and what then ? marry then after this drawing and inspiring , it is in the election of mans free will either to obey or refuse , and how is this prooued ? marry , you shall heare it proued out of Austines Homilies , Diabolus dat consilium , Homil. 12. sed Deo auxiliante , nostrum ect eligere vel repudiare quod suggerit , The deuill giueth vs counsaile , but it is in our power , the Lord assisting vs , to chuse or refuse that which he suggesteth . Is not this a worthy proofe ? the question being of Gods worke in vs , Cap. 3. he answereth that the deuill doth counsell vs , and we by the freedome of our wils , may either [ eligere or repudiare quod suggerit ] what ? dare you accuse Saint Austine of so hainous a crime ? they be Austines very words . But by your leaue , you must prooue that before it will be beleeued , I am sure Saint Austine would not say that we may choose , that which the deuill entiseth vs vnto , by the helpe of God , indeed the regenerate man may [ repudiare consilium diaboli ] by the helpe of God , but I am sure God will not helpe him to yeeld to his suggestions . The child of God that s borne againe hath freewill in some measure , but to good , not to euill , and so haue the wicked , but to euill and not to good , and both their wils are therefore free , because neither the one is constrained to that which is good , nor the other to that which is euill , but farre was it from Saint Austines thought , that God should affoord any helpe to choose the councels and suggestions of the deuill .

As for quenching the spirit , 1. Thes. 5.19 . which Saint Paul somewhere speakes of , I answere that the Greeke word signifieth keeping vnder , or shaking , as wel as extinguishing , & so the word quenching , is sometime taken in our English tongue : secondly , the same Apostle saith else where , Eph. 4.30 . greeue not the spirit , which may well be interpreted , slake not , or quench not , or keepe not downe the power of the spirit , yet it followeth presently , by whom ye are sealed to the day of redemption . But let it signifie ( vtter extinguishing and putting out ) in this place to the Thessalonians , yet me thinkes he should know what Beza answereth in his Annotations , Annot. in . Thes. epist. 1.5.19 . where this obiection is extinguished , thus he obiecteth . Si in electis nunque extinguitur , frustrà hoc praecipitur , If it be neuer quenched in the elect , this precept is giuen in vaine . Then he answereth , Imo verò ideo non extinguitur in electis , quoniam eum fouent , vt autem foueant , istis exhortationibus adducuntur , Yea rather therefore it is not extinguished in the elect , because they cherish it , and that they doe cherish , they are prouoked by these exhortations . And hereof it commeth that Saint Paul addeth immediately in the very next verse , despise not prophecying , that is , Vers. 20. giue heede to Gods holy word preached and opened vnto you , whereby this fire of the spirit was first kindled , and must still be kept burning in your hearts ; moreouer it may be considered , that the Prophet Dauid , Psal. 51.10 , 11 , 12. euen in the same verse where he calleth vpon God to create in him a new heart , addeth further , and renue a right spirit with in me , & where he saith , cast me not away from thy presence , then he saith also , take not thy holy spirit from me , & he had not so soone sayd , restore to me the ioy of thy saluation , but he sheweth againe , that all was not lost , saying , stablish me with thy free spirit . And so we find the creating he speaketh of , to be a renuing , the not casting of him away , to be the not taking of Gods holy spirit from him , and lastly restoring to be establishing .

One dusty reason yet remaineth , which our papist shakes out of the bottome of his bag , in these words , if there be no power in man to repent , or to doe good workes , why doth the Scripture exhort vs to repentance , newes of life , and good workes , and threaten to punish vs for not doing that we cannot doe ? 2. Tim: 2.25 doe you aske why ? marry Paul tels you why , saying , instruct them that be contrary minded , proouing if God at any time will giue them Repentance , that so they may come to amendment out of the snare of the deuill , where that we learne cleerely that God by the meanes of the Scripture draweth vs to repentance and amendment of life . Repentance and remission of sins was giuen freely to Israel , Act. 5.31 Act: 11.18 likewise God graunted repentance to the Gentiles ; if we at this day be neither Iewes nor Gentiles , or if God worke not in these dayes , as he did in those : then may we brag of our freedome and manumission , if not , then are they ouer-sawcie that honour themselues with the spoyles of God .

And touching Gods threatnings for not doing that we haue no abilitie to performe , who but a blind papist can or will therefore charge God with iniustice , considering that he gaue vs abilitie in the loines of Adam , though now by his fall , Iohn 15.5 and ours in him , we haue lost it . Our Sauiour when he saith , without me yee can doe nothing , doth he therefore leaue off exhorting , conuincing , and threatning ? or doth S. Paul hauing once testified that it is not in him that willeth , Rom 9.16 . nor in him that runneth , but in God that sheweth mercy ; neuer after exhort men to will and to run aright , nor threaten them , if they happen to will and to runne amisse ? when Christ saith , Mark . 1.15 repent and beleeue the Gospel , must we needs conclude against the plaine euidence of Gods word , that repentance and faith , Phil: 1.29 . & hebr: 12 : 2 Ad simplicianum lib. 1. quest. 2. are not the gifts of God , but the home-spunne fruit of our owne wils ? wherefore I will conclude this point with Saint Austine , whom our Papist here seemeth to follow as his speciall guide , Quis potest rectè viuere ac iustè operari , nisi iustificatus ex fide ? quis potest crederenisi aliqua vocatione , hoc est , aliqua rerum testificatione tangatur ? Quis habet inpotestate sua , vt sua meus tali visu tangatur , quo voluntas moueatur adfidem ? Who can beleeue except he be touched with some calling , that is to say , some testification of the things , who hath it in owne power that his mind should be touched with such a sight , Despir . & liter . Cap. 34. whereby it may be moued to faith ? Againe , Cur hnic ita suadeatur , vt persuadeatur , illi autem non ita : duo sola occurrunt quae mihi placeat respondere , ô altitudo diuitiarum , Rom: 11.33 Rom: 9.14 . & nunquid iniquitas est apud deum ? cui ista responsio displicet , quaerat doctiores sed caueat presumptores . Why this man is so instructed that he is perswaded , but another is not so , I haue found two onely answeres that doe please me : O the depth of the riches , and is there iniustice with God ? he that is not pleased with this answere , let him seeke him learneder instructers , but withall let him take heede he find them not presumptuous . Now let your Papist tell Saint Austine , that the one was persuaded , the other not , because it is in mans freewill either to obey or refuse , for so he may prooue a presumptuous foote like his fellowes , but better learned then Saint Austine will he neuer be .

Yet for all this , we must read Saint Austine for our full satisfaction , as if Saint Austine were a patrone of such licentiousnesse , or as if a man liuing or dead , by his owne authoritie could fully satisfie any Christian conscience , yet S. Paul in that place which Austine expounds , Ephe: 3.13 . writes to regenerate men that had their wils freed by the mercy of God , & were to go on by the same mercy to a further perfection . Austine saith , Quod peto à vobis , rogo det vobis , De verbis Apost. serm. 7. That which I require of you , I desire for you . And againe , Hoc à Deo petit , quod ab hominibus exigit , This he desireth of God , which he requireth of men . And againe , Det vobis , inquit , non enim habetis , nisi det vobis , Let him giue you ( saith he ) for you haue it not , vnlesse he giue it you . Yea but what say you to Irenaeus , Hilarie , and Epiphanius , doe not they satisfie you ? No , nor any man else that is not a Pelagian hereticke , Irenaeus saith plainely , Lib. 4. cap. 72. Omnes eiusdem sunt naturae , & potentes retinere & operari bonum , & potentes rursum amittere id , & non facere , All men are of the same nature , and able to reteine and to worke that which is good , and able againe to loose it , and not to doe it . Againe , Liberae sententiae ab initio est homo , est liberae sententiae est Deus , cuius ad similitudinem factus est , Man had freewill from the beginning , and God hath freewill , according to whose similitude he was made . To be short , the same Father , when he saith , In fide liberum & suae potestatis arbitrium hommi seruauit Dominus , God hath reserued to man in faith , a will free and in his owne power . What doth he else but place faith in the free will and power of man , than which nothing can be more contrary to the doctrine of the Gospel , Hilar. in psal. 118. neither is the testimonie of Hilarie and Epiphanius of much better regard , for when the one saith , Est à nobis cum oramus exordium , The beginning is from our selues when we pray . Idem . in psal. 2. Againe , Vnicuique nostrum libertatem vitae sensumque permisit , He hath graunted to euerie of vs libertie of life and sence . And againe , Voluntas nostra hoc proprium ex se habere debet , vt velit Deus incipienti crementum dare . This our will ought to haue proper of it selfe , that when it beginneth , God would giue increase . And the other , Epiph. heres. 16. Possumus peccare & non peccare , It is in our power to sinne , and not to sinne . And againe , Circa hominem est bona operari , aut malas res appetere : It it in mans power to doe good , or to desire euill things . I see no inckling of any grace , but onely of the naturall force and power of mans will , I will not charge these auncient fathers with all that may be gathered out of their writings , but this I may say , vnder benedicite , that such sayings as these , were the first grounds and foundations of the Pelagian heresie , August : contra Iulianum Pelag. lib. 1. ca. 2. Pelagianis nondùm litigantibus securius loquebantur , saith Austine , the Fathres spake with lesse circumspection , before they were combred with Pelagianisme .

The Dialogue . Sectio XXI . The doctrine of the keyes .

AS touching this point of doctrine , the church of Rome doth teach none a a But by your leaue , you are deceiued . other thing , then that which our Sauiour Christ doth in the 16. of S Matthews Gospell in plaine and expresse wordes , where hee saith vnto S. Peter , Whatsoeuer thou shalt bind on earth , shall be bound in heauen , and whatsoeuer thou shalt loose on earth , shal be loosed in heauen : and in the 20. of S. Iohns Gospell , where he saith to all his disciples , Whosoeuers sinnes ye remit , they are remitted vnto them , and whosoeuers sinnes ye retayne , they are retayned : so that you see the literall sense is for vs , and the question betweene vs , is of the right interpretation and true meaning of the wordes ; you b b We doe so , for the keyes of discipline are giuen , Matth. 18.18 . do interpret the binding and loosing here mentioned , to be the preaching of the word of God , whereby sinnes are forgiuen and loosed to the penitent hearers , and retained vnto the impenitent and vnbeleeuers : and we doe say , that by these wordes our Sauiour did giue authoritie and commission vnto his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes , not by their owne power and authoritie , but by the power and authoritie of him , whose commissioners they be , wherein wee doe attribute no more vnto the commissioners in the forgiuing of sinnes , than wee doe vnto a seruant that giueth possession of his masters land by vertue of a letter of atturney , who although he haue himselfe no interest in the land at all , yet hath he full power to conuey his masters interest therein to c c He knowes to whom , so doth not your popish priest . whosoeuer his pleasure is to haue the same conueyed ; it pleased God to make water an instrument in the forgiuing of sinnes in the Sacrament of Baptisme : and in the d d We know no such sacrament , this must goe among other your forgeries . sacrament of penance , to make man an instrument , vnto whom wee doe attribute no more ( as touching the forgiuenesse of sinnes , in the one sacrament , then you doe vnto water in the other : man ( who cannot see the heart ) giueth remission to all that pretend to be penitent and contrite : but God who seeth the heart , e e And would giue it , though your new-found sacrament had neuer bin forged . giueth remission ( by the ministery of man ) to those onely that are truely penitent and contrite : And thus much for the true vnderstanding of the question betwéene vs . Now forasmuch as ( the literall sense being wholy for vs , ) the controuersie doth consist onely in the right interpretation ; let vs compare together your interpretation and ours , that we may the better discerne whether of them is most like to be true : f f We build our faith vpon no mans opinion , old or yong , doe you as best beseemes your p●ofession . you doe build your faith herein vpon the opinion of Luther or Caluine , or perhaps vpon the conceit of your owne braine ; and wee vpon the authoritie of the g g Here is a goodly vaunt , if the matter could be so caried away with bigge wordes , this fellow would doe well inough . ancient fathers , and continuall practise of the vniuersall church through the whole world , continued from the Apostles , and remayning euen to this day . To conclude , for the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation , thus I doe argue against it ; If Christ did giue this authoritie of binding and loosing vnto his disciples onely and to their successors ( as I thinke you will not deny it ) then cannot the preaching of the word bee that binding and loosing giuen onely to the disciples and their successors , because h h As though a learned lay man had authoritie to preach the word . a learned lay man , who is none of the disciples successors , may bind and loose in that sense that you doe interpret , and open and shut the kingdome of heauen , as well as an i i We allow no such ministers . ignorant and vnlearned minister : Other doctrine then this , as touching the forgiuing or retayning of sinnes , the church of Rome teacheth not , sauing that whereas in the sacrament of Penance , temporall penance is inioyned ; we doe hold that the k k Who gaue that power to the Pope ? I am sure it is more then euer Peter had , or practised or bequeathed to his successors , this is not to be found either in S. Matthew or S. Iohn . Pope hath power to release , alter , or mittigate the same , eyther in the life of the partie , or , if the partie fortune to die before the performance of his penance , to pardon the same after his death . For your ful satisfaction herein , I l l And I you to the answere . wil referre you to a learned discourse thereof written in the english tongue by our countrey man Cardinall Allen .

The Answere .

THe Keyes now remaine to bee scoured from popish rust , and to this purpose wee may consider that Saint Peters keyes are first taken in hand , Math: 16.19 . Iohn 20.23 . Bellar. de pontif . and then those keyes that were committed by our Sauiour to the Apostles ; yet if you will beleeue Bellarmine , the first place out of Matthew , doth but promise that Saint Peter should be a keykeeper ( I will giue the &c. and the other out of Iohn , Rom. lib. 1. cap. 2. giueth the Apostles no more but Potestatem ordinis ad remittenda peccata , Power of order to remit sins . Thus must your papist either be at oddes with Bellarmine , or else giue claues iurisdictionis , the keyes of iurisdiction , onely to Peter and his successors , and to the rest nothing but potestatem ordinis , and so consequently he must find other places besides these , or else his keyes will neither open nor shut as he would haue them . Wherefore let him consult with Bellarmine his master , before he presume ouer farre vpon the doctrine of the Church of Rome , and he will tell him that the keyes both of order and iurisdiction were giuen to Peter in these words , Iohn 21.15 . &c. Iohn 20.21 . &c. Pasce oves meas , Feede my sheepe : and to the other Apostles in these , as my father sent me , so send I you , and in these words to receiue the holy Ghost , whose sinnes ye remit , they are remitted vnto them , and whose sinnes yee reteine , they are reteined , and here note by the way , how solemnely Father Bellarmine tels vs that our Sauiour in these two places gaue Summam potestatem ; Chiefe power to all his Apostles , Sed cum quadam subiectione ad Petrum , But with a kind of subiection to Peter . As if [ summa potestas ] and [ subiectio ] could possibly agree together , or as if Peter himselfe receaued that same high power among the rest , vsed it , Cum quadam subiectione ad se ipsum , with a kind of subiection to himself . Such ridiculous absurdities doe men runne headlong into , when they are ouer hastily carried away with their owne dreames .

But goe too , let vs intreat the Cardinall to beare with his friend , and to procure him a dispensation to vnderstand these two places , which he citeth , after his owne liking ; what hath he than to say ? Marry then I say , our sense is more literall then yours , well , and what saith he else ? Nay we say , that our Sauiour by these words , doth giue authoritie and commission to his disciples and their successors to forgiue sinnes , not by their owne power and authoritie , but by the power and authoritie of him whose commissioners they be . Yea , but haue they commission to forgiue sinnes wheresoeuer they find it , or else in them onely that God is willing to forgiue ? Their commission I trow , is not vniuersall to all without discretion , and to dreame who it is that God purposeth to shew mercy vnto , is beyond the capacitie of any man liuing , Papist to Protestant ; he that hath a letter of Atturney from his master to giue possession of , and knoweth the man to whom he is commaunded to conuey his masters interest , Rom. 9.18 . but our master hath mercy on whom he will , and whom he will hee hardeneth , neither may your popist Priest presume that hee knoweth the mind of the Lord , Rom. 11.33.34 . and can find out his wayes and iudgements which be insearchable , and so this silly papist heere confesseth , when he saith , that man giueth remission to pretended penitents , which God who seeth their hearts , doth not ratifie : now then conferre this power thus exercised hand ouer head to good and bad , as papists vse it , with our preaching or publishing remission to penitent sinners , and then iudge whether is most like to be the better .

And because he bragges of the literrall sense , that it makes wholly for him , let him tell mee how the generall words of the Scripture , whatsoeuer thou shalt bind , whatsoeuer thou shalt loose , whosoeuers sinnes yee remit , and whosoeuers sinnes ye retaine , can be literally restrained to such onely as be truely penitent ? if this cannot be done without a quatefication , let him not bragge that his sense is more literall than ours , we preach remission to all that be penitent , and so open vnto them the kingdome of heauen ; to the impenitent , Rom. 2.8 . and such as contentiously disobey the truth , wee denounce indignation and wrath , Esay . 5.14 . and so shut heauen , & open hell wide , that their glory , their multitude , & pompe may descend into it , neither can this sense seeme strange to such as be conuersant in the writings of the Fathers , Thus saith Tertullian , Contr. Marcion lib. 4. Esa. lib. 6. cap. 14. De Cain & Abel lib. 2. cap. 4. In Oper. imperf. in Mat. cap. 23. Quam clauem habebant legis doctores , nisi interpretationem legis , What keyes had the doctors of the law , but the interpretation of the law . Thus Ierome , Soluunt Apostoli sermone Dei & testimonijs scripturarum , & exhortatione virtutum . The Apostles doe loose , by the word of God , and testimonies of the Scriptures , and exhortation vnto vertues . Thus Ambrose , Remittuntur peccata per verbum Dei , cuius Leuites est interpres , Sinnes are remitted by the word of God , of which the minister is interpreter . Thus Chrysostome , Clauicularij sunt sacerdotes , quibus creditum est verbum docendi & interpretandi scripturas , The key-keepers are the Priests , vnto whom the word of teaching and interpreting the Scriptures is committed .

But it may be our papist , by comparison of his interpretation and ours will find out the truth , thus hee writes , you build your faith vpon the opinion of Luther , or Caluine , or the conceit of your owne braine , and we vpon the authoritie of the auncient fathers , and continuall practise of the vniuersall Church through the whole world continued from the Apostles , and remaining to this day . Heere is a tale told with all circumstances pressed downe , and running ouer , for hee might haue left out either [ vniuersall Church , ] or , through the whole world ; either continued , or continuall practise , or remaining to this day : if he had not purposed to dazle vs with emptie wordes , but is this the comparison he crakes of ? Now surely we must needs bee hard hearted that cannot yeeld to such comparisons , can you prooue that wee build our faith vpon Luther , or Caluine , or our owne braine ? or doe you compare together our faith and yours , when you compare the opinion and conceit of Luther or Caluine , with the authority of the ancient Fathers ? Alas good Papist , you cannot but know that our faith is no mans conceit or opinion , and it is a shame for you to confesse that you build your faith vpon the authoritie of the Fathers , or practise of the Church , be it neuer so ancient ; I hope the fathers builded not vpon other Fathers that were their ancients , but vpon the infallible word of God , and what should ayle vs , that we may not vse that meanes the Fathers vsed before vs ? you may talke long inough of Fathers and traditions , and your toppe gallant [ Church of Rome , ] as though no one Father sayd any thing for vs , yet when you haue all done , you must giue vs leaue , ot we will take leaue to found our faith and religion vpon the written word of the Almightie .

Thus is your Popish fellowes Rhetoricke come to small effect , and therefore he will now trie what his Logicke can doe . Thus I argue , saith he , to the vtter ouerthrow of your interpretation ; how , I pray you ? marry you shall heare , if Christ giue authoritie of building and loosing onely to his disciples , and their successors , then cannot preaching be that building and loosing , why so man ? because a learned lay man may bind and loose in that sense , as well as an ignorant and vnlearned minister , what is this I heare ? may a lay man preach the word ? or any ignorant and vnlearned minister either ? we allow no such blind preachers , as you doe Priests , Rom. 10 , 15. Hebr. 5 , 4. and Paul excludeth the laity from preaching when he saith , how shall they preach , except they be sent ? And againe , no man taketh honour vnto himselfe , but he that is called of God as was Aaron , but marke this arguing a little better , preaching forsooth cannot be binding and loosing , because a learned lay man is able to preach , and may not a learned lay man bind and loose too , as formally as your popish Priests ? you will say no , because he is not authorised so to doe by the Church , and I say againe , that he hath as good right to bind and loose , as to preach the Gospel , and therefore our papist must looke out some new premises , if euer hee looke to haue good of his conclusion .

Harding , one of the captaines of his hoste , saith , that if remitting sinnes consist in pronouncing and denouncing of the Gospel , euery lay man , yea women , Cont. Apolog. Cap. 6. Diuis. 2. yea yong boyes & girles may assoile sinners , yea euery man may assoile himselfe , but these fellowes neuer looke at the order of their owne Synagogue , where an old wife , or a young girle is authorised to baptize , and so consequently to remit sinnes : the Church of Rome oftentimes rolleth vp the power of the keyes in a bull of lead , and sends it abroad to seeke his fortune by a lay pardoner , yet make they no doubt but remission of sinnes is annexed vnto it ; but if we say , as Christ saith , Math. 23 , 13. & Luk. 11.52 woe be to them that take away the key of knowledge , and so shut vp the kingdome of heauen that they that would enter , cannot come in ; this forsooth must needes bee farre fetched , and the litterall sense will not beare it .

But what should a man spend his leasure with such vntoward and insensible triflers , that will needs authorise the Pope to pardon the soules of the dead , for not performing bodily penance ? we hold , saith he , that the Pope hath power to release , alter , or mitigate temporall penance , both in the life time of the partie , and also after his death ; if any of his penance be vnperformed , and so our soules must fast bread and water , they must repent in sackecloth and ashes , they must whippe themselues like Iesuits , and shed teares , and wring their hands , and lie vpon the cold ground , and goe barefoot and barelegd , and such like , if it please not the Popes holinesse to release them : but by your Popes leaue , I had rather beleeue the voice of God from heauen , that tels me , that such as die in the Lord are blessed , and rest from their labours , at the least wise they must needs rest from corporall pennance . Cardinall Allens learned discourse is answered long agoe , and the answere hath meate , drinke , and lodging among you without contradiction ; but let Allen and all his fellow Cardinals say what they can , yet this I am sure off , the Pope can haue no power ouer any of the dead , but onely Gods chosen , for reprobates are beyond his reach , Rom: 8.33.38 39. of the chosen , thus saith Saint Paul , who shall lay any thing to the charge of Gods chosen ? it is God that iustifieth , who shall condemne ? and a little after , I am perswaded , saith he , that neither death , nor life , nor Angels , nor principalities , nor powers , nor things present , nor things to come , nor height , nor depth , nor any other creature can separate vs from the loue of God , which is in Christ Iesus our Lord .

But to let this passe , if it be demanded , what cause the Pope hath to pardon that which the dead cannot bee charged withall , what will or can any papist possibly answere ? he that is charged with foure , or fiue , or two yeeres penance , or lesse , if he be preuented by vntimely death , must either be discharged , or else be punished for not doing that he cannot do , which himselfe a while a goe thought to be absurd ; if it bee sayd that in this case God punisheth not for omission of penance , but for the sinne for which penance was inioyned , Mar. 2.7 . & Luk. 5.21 . and not done : then the Pope must be sayd either to forgiue that which cannot be required , and that s folly ; or else the sinne which remained vnsatisfied , and that s blasphemie .

Yet notwithstanding this blasphemie is rise among papists , Contr. Apol. cap. 6. diuis . 2. Math. 9.2.6 . Luk. 7.48 . howsoeuer this fellow heere would faine hide it ; as the sonne of man , saith Harding , remitted sinnes to him that was sicke of the Palsie , & to Marie Magdalen ; euen so he hath transferred the same power vnto Priests : and againe , sinnes are released by the power of the keyes in the Sacrament of penaunce , to the benefit of them that after baptisme be relapsed and fallen into sinne againe , of which power , Apol. cap. 6. diuis . 1. De author . eccles. & concil . supr. & contr. scriptur . no Christian doubteth , vnlesse he be a Nouatian hereticke ; And againe , the Nouatians were condemned by the Church , because they denied that Priests in the Church had authoritie to remit sinnes , and so denied the Sacrament of penance : Cardinall Cusan , Haec ligandi & soluendi potestas non minor est in ecclesia , quàm in Christo , This power of binding and loosing , is no lesse in the Church , than in Christ . Your owne Cardinall a a In his Booke of Priesthood . Allen saith , that the Pope forgiueth sinnes properly . And Pope Iulius , Iulius Concil. tom. 1. de primat . Rom. eccles. Habet sacrosancta Romana ecclesia potestatem , singulari sibi priuiligio concessam , aperire & claudere ianuas regni caelestis quibus voluerit , The holy Church of Rome hath by a speciall prerogatiue power graunted vnto it , to open and shut the gates of the kingdome of heauen , to and against whom it will . Wherefore , if the case be so plaine as this papist seemes to make it , why doe they not make vs a new expurgatorie Index , that may blot out these , and many moe such sawcie seazings vpon the Lords owne peculiar , out of their bookes ? No , no , howsoeuer they face out the matter , yet are they the sonnes and heires of those priests that Ierome speakes off , In Math. cap. 16. who thought they had power to absolue the wicked and condemne the innocent , and were woont to say euen in Saint Austines time , Nos sanctificamus immundos , August . de fide & oper. ca. 14 nos iustificamus impios , nos petimus , nos impetramus , Wee sanctifie the vncleane , we iustifie the vngodlie , wee aske , we obtaine .

The Dialogue . Sectio XXVII .

ANd here will I make and end , referring that which hitherto hath béene spoken , to your better censure and further consideration ; whereupon if you shall rest resolued that you haue rightly described the Church of Christ , and that you are also a member of the same ; yet a a No such matter , it is but the vanitie of your conceit . must you be inforced to graunt , that all the ancient fathers before mentioned , were hereticks , and that so was also that vniuersall Church whereof they make mention so often in their writings , b b Paul saith , that Antichrist doth sit in the temple of God , and therefore no maruel though his seat were alwayes in preparing in the Church . wherin the said heretical and papisticall doctrine was taught and practised : but let vs admit , although it bée most false that there was in the world such a Church as you haue c c We goe by truth , not by imagination . imagined , for the first 300 yéeres next alter Christ , and that these ancient fathers and doctors with their adherents did afterward ecclypse that cleare light of the Gospell which shined in those first 300. yéeres ; yet how can we imagine that the Church of Christ ( which was indowed with so many gifts of the holy Ghost , and which euer flourished and increased most amidst the tortures of so many heathen Emperours ) could vpon d d We doe not imagine so , for the kingdome of Antichrist was not erected vpon a suddane , but by l●tle and litle irremarkeably , as weeds vse to grow among th● good co●ne . a sudden be so vtterly quayled and extinguished by these hereticall doctors , as that no member thereof should once take pen in hand in defence of the trueth against their heresies ? or how can we e e Who bids you imagine so , but your Synagogue lay hidden til Antichrist was d sclosed . 2. Thes. 2.3 . imagine that the Church of Christ should for the space of 1300. yéeres lie hidden in so secret corners of the world , as that none of the said papisticall doctors ( who wrote against all those , by the name of heretickes , which helde any doctrine contrary to that which they f f The ancient fathers neuer termed such as you be Catholicks , nor your doctrine Catholicke . termed Catholicke ) could heare of them ? or that in all that time , no generall Councell ( who were gathered together from all parts of the world ) should receiue intelligence g g No Chur h had any being then , but ours onely . of the being of your mathematicall Church professing christianity in so farre different a maner ? which if either any of the said doctors , or any of those general Councels had done , h h Non sequitur . we should haue heard of them in the Catalogue of heretickes , or haue found their opinions condemned by some generall councels : so soone as Aerius arose and denied prayer for the dead &c. he was i i Full simply , and full little to your credit , but single men such as Epiphanius was in this case , haue no authoritie to dubbe heretickes . confuted by Epiphanius , and afterward by S. Austine ; when the reall presence was k k It was impugned 200 nay 500. yeeres and odde , before your Lateran councels . first impugned , the first authors thereof were condemned by the Councell of Laterane , and so of other of your opinions , as they sprang vp in latter yeeres ; but a Protestant religion , such as is now established in England , was neuer heard of in the world before king Edwards time , neither hath that religion at this day any being in the world l l A foule vntruth without either ga●d or welt . but in England onely : And Puritany , such m m They professe no such matter . as professe to be of a church which holdeth no doctrine but such as is warranted by scripture , neuer had nor yet hath any being in the world , so that it is n n This fellow seemes not to know what religion and Church is . a religion , and a church , as yet in imagination onely , for although Puritanes you o o haue cause to loue them the better , for in so doing , they resemble you Papists . doe violently and ridiculously wrest the scripture for proofe of euery point of their doctrine : yet doe they hold many things not warranted by scripture , as before I haue sufficiently prooued . There was neuer heresie in the world , but you shall reade when it first sprang vp , how it grew and increased , and when it was cut downe and withered away ; you shall neuer p p you may read in Paul when it first sprang , and when it shal be cut downe , 2. Thes. 2 , 7 , 8 reade when the catholicke religion first sprang , it hath for these 1300. yéeres ( by q q We confesse no such matter . your own confession ) increased and florished , it hath béene confirmed by infinite miracles , and watered with the blood of millions of Martyrs , and therefore the way that leadeth and directeth vnto the catholicke religion , is r r But by your leaue , we must doubt of it , or rather be out of doubt it is not . no doubt , the way whereof the Prophet Esay speaketh , saying , And there shall be a path , and a way , and it shall be called the holy way , and it shall be to you so direct and plaine , as fooles shall not be able to erre therein . Contrariwise you shall s s In the Bible . reade when and where your doctrine first sprang vp , who were the fathers thereof , and it hath béene t t The more to blame they that did it . cut so oft as it hath reuiued ; so oft as any branch thereof hath sprung vp , it hath béene confuted and condemned by generall Councels , and is registred in the Catalogue of latter heresies : you can shew no succession of bishops , no myracles , no u u These be stale prattlements of no weight , beseeming such vain ianglers . martyrs , nor name any one member of your Church , before Iohn Caluin ; for although Wickliffe , Husse , and Luther , with the Waldenses , and certaine other condemned heretickes of Armenia and Grecia did iumpe with you in some of your opinions , yet was none of them either Protestant or Puritane , and so none of your Church , and therefore the way that leadeth to your Church , is not that direct and playne way whereof the Prophet speaketh , but rather an inexplicable Labyrinth , wherein there is x x We haue the holy word of God to giue vs light , and to guide vs , & cursed be he that lookes for better direction , Amen . no light , no path , no compasse or guide to direct your course .

The Answere .

HEere this man would make an end , if hee could tell how , but his conscience telling him that his discourses are weake and insufficient , he would faine fortifie them with a little generall talke propounded and answered longe agoe : Sect. 5. & alibi . and therefore , though it be needlesse to keepe downe a dead Carkasse with any newe answere , vnlesse hee could blowe life into it with some newe defence ; yet somewhat more would bee added in this place , for the repressing of popish insolencie . First therefore , where it is disputed , that if our description of the Church be right , then the ancient Fathers were heretickes , and the vniuersall Church hereticall ; I am content this sequele be iudged by that which hath been alreadie disputed : if euerie disagreement from truth must needs bee heresie , Gal. 2.11 . &c. Act. 15.39 . Act. 11.2 . &c. then either Paul or Peter was an hereticke , and so was either Barnabas or Paul , who were so stirred the one against the other , that they parted asunder . Peter was chidden of the Church of Iewrie , for communicating to the Gentiles ; yet the Church was deceiued , and not Peter : 1. Co. 3 , 12.13 euerie errour is not an heresie , and euerie one that builds timber , hay , or stubble vpon the foundation , is not an hereticke , and therefore this loose talke is little worth .

Yea , but let vs admit , saith hee , that there was such a Church , as you imagine , in the first three hundred yeeres after Christ , though it bee most false : nay , you must admit it maugre your head , neither is it false euer the sooner with a merrie word ; prooue it to be false , and wee will bee as farre from either admitting it , or imagining it as your selfe ; but so long as you vse such a generall defence , as they of Sodome and Gomorha , and the Cities adioyning might haue vsed against Lot , the Cananites against Abraham , and the old world against Noah and his familie ; there is no cause why such goodly shewes of antiquitie should controll Gods truth ; if Lot , Abraham , and Noah had beene ruled by prescription of time , by multitude , by authoritie of Princes , by traditions of Elders , or by any thing else in the world , but Gods owne mouth , they had been as Sodome , and like to Gomorha : and yet for all that , Peter the head Patron of Rome , as you say , and the Iewes that depended vppon him , playd the hypocrites together , and Barnabas a good man , full of the holy Ghost and faith , Act. 11.24 . was led away with them to the same hypocrisie ; and though the scripture testifie of Lot , that hee was a iust man , Gal. 2.13 . and that his righteous soule was vexed from day to day with the vncleanly conuersation of the wicked : yet , by your leaue , 2. Pet. 2.7.8 , the prostitution of his daughters , his drunkenesse , and incest , Gen. 19.8.31 . &c. doe plainely euince , that he was somewhat tainted with the sins of Sodome .

Yea , but Sodome was not the Church of God , neither was there any Christian Church established , when Peter and his companie playd the hypocrites . Well , Let that bee graunted , yet my reason is so much the stronger , for if Strangers from God , and young Nouises in religion preuailed so much , that the one drew Lot , the other Peter and Barnabas to doe thinges not conuenient , how much more may the vsuall slips , and fals , and infections of Christian Churches worke the like inconueniences in the Fathers and guides of the same ! we doe not imagine that the Church of Christ was vtterly quailed and extinguished vpon a suddaine , for that s more than the gates of hell shall euer be able to bring to passe ; but this we say , and are sure , that the mysterie of iniquitie did worke in Pauls time , and fell not a sleepe as soone as Saint Paule was dead , waking againe 600. 2. Thes. 2.7 . yeares after when this mysterie was disclosed , for Rome was not built in a day , or vpon a suddaine , and the Maister builders of it are none of the seuen Sleepers , and therefore no maruaile though perusing Councels , Fathers and Stories from the Apostles forward , we finde the print of the Popes feet here and there scatteringly , and so perceiue how he went on , and grewe to the fulnesse of the age of Antichrist .

Neither is it preiudiciall to Gods cleere truth faithfully registred in the word of God , that none tooke penne in hand to defend it against Antichrist : for the Angels of Pergamus and Thyatira , Reuel . cap. 2.14.15.20 . though they were Gods faithfully Ministers , yet doe wee not read , that either they or any of their fellowes and friends wrote or spake any thing against Baalamites , and Nicholaitans , and the false prophecies of Iesabell that infected their Churches . Epist. 119. ad Ianuar. Austine saith , Multa huiusmodi propter nonnull trum vel sanctarum , vel turbulentarum personarum scandala deuitanda , liberiùs improbare non audeo , I dare not freely as I should , improoue many scandals of this kind , because of some either holy or troublesome persons that fauour them ; and therefore no maruell though the religion of Antichrist , being a compound heresie of many simples , grew on soft and faire , and plodded still forward by little and by little without any resistance , till the time came it should bee disclosed : if the light of truth had been suddenly eclipsed , the ancient Fathers and their adherents , would haue laboured to restore it ; but this eclipse growing slowly by small peeces , they knew not the deepenesse of Satan , Reuel. 2.24 . Math. 13.25 . &c. and so gaue the tares of Antichrist leaue to growe so long among the wheat , til they were past weeding ; neuerthelesse looke the preface of Caluines Institutions to the French King , and there you shall finde the testimonies of Acacius , Spiridion , Ambrose , Austine , Epiphanius , Gelasius , Chrysostome , Calixtus , Cyprian , Apollonius , Paphnutius , and others , against outward braueries , abstinence from flesh , monkish idlenesse , painted Images , suffrages for the dead , transubstantiation , the halfe communion , vnwritten determinations , set fastings , forbidding mariage , mans weak iudgment , and such like flowers of Antichrists garland : and if these had sayd nothing , yet there were many other Fathers besides these , and whether they tooke penne in hand , and wrote more fully against the seuerall branches of Poperie as they grew , it were hard to tell , yet may wee affirme it with as good probabilitie , as you may denie it , howsoeuer it be , the wisedome of God hauing so decree to punish our vnthankefulnesse : the doctrine of Rome , Reuel. 17.9 . which is the seat of Antichirst , grew and increased a long time , but thankes bee to God , it is now in such a consumption as eats vp the flesh of it , 2. Thes. 2.8 . and wee haue sufficient warrant that it shall bee abolished .

Neither is this increase and multiplication of errour , till it conquer sinceritie and truth , and breake forth into open absurdities , so strange a matter in the Church of God . Thus you may read in the Valentine Councell , In proemio . Quorundam patrum vtilis fuit & religiosa suggestio retractandi de his , quae nec recipere possumus ob ecclesiae sanctitatem , nec tamen vsquequaque consuetudinis causa damnare , ita enim per omnes ecclesias eiusmodi vitiorum germen inoleuit , vt ad plena remedia non facilis sit recursus , Profitable and religious is the motion of certain Fathers , concerning retracting those thinges , which because of the holynesse of the Church , we may not receiue , and yet by reason of custome dare not condemne , for such a seede of vices hath growne by custome in all Churches , that now wee haue no easie recourse to a full remedie . Againe , Can 1. Fratrum nostrorum vel imperitiam , vel simplicitatem , vel etiam presumptionem damnare non possumus , nec per omnes ecclesias quae sunt iam pridem male gesta corrigere , Wee cannot condemne either the vnskilfulnesse , or simplicitie , or ( if ye will ) presumption of our brethren , nor correct all the thinges that haue beene of late badly done in all Churches . Againe , Quod prauae consuetudinis vitio ab Hispaniensibus Episcopis factum est , ita reprehendimus , vt propter numerum corrigendorum , Innocen prim . Epist 24 ad S nod . Tolet : cap. 1. ea quae quo quo modo facta sunt non in dubium vocemus , sed Dei potius iuditio dimittamus , That which was done by the Bishops of Spaine , through the corruption of euill custome , wee so reprooue , that because of the number of them that bee to be corrected , wee call not in question the thinges that were disorderly done , but leaue them to the iudgement of God . And againe , Mens potentiae auida , Leo primus ad Anathol . Constant . Epist. 51 nec abstinere nouit à vetitis , nec gaudere concessis , dum inordinato prauoque progressu impunitarum transgressionum augentur excessus & crebrescunt culpae , quae toleratae sunt studio fidei reparandae & amore concordiae , A minde that is greedie of aduancement , knoweth neither how to abstaine from things forbidden , nor how to vse well things that are graunted , whilest excesses are increased and faults multiplyed , thorough the inordinate and wicked proceding of transgressions vnpunished , which were tolerated of a desire of repayring the faith , and loue of concord . Thus may you see , that good men and worthy Fathers of Gods Church , by bearing with small matters for the common peace and welfare of the Church , did so multiply absurdities , that in the end , they might cast their caps at them , sooner than represse them , & withall you may see what Fathers Poperie is an adherent vnto , namely , such as the Valentine Councell , Pope Innocent and Leo speake of ; as for the former ages of the Church , Bishop Iewell in the defence of the Apologie & Challenge , hath so vncased the face of Antichrist that hid it selfe vnder the visard of Fathers and Counsels , that none of the Popes Adherents , euer went about to couer it with any answere .

Moreouer , whereas this fellow relies so much vpon antiquitie , as if the ancient Fathers were flesh of his flesh , and bone of his bones , why doth not hee , or some of his idle companions take Master Foxes booke in hand , where the substance of all antiquitie is orderly set downe , Apoc. 17.5.6 . and the whole glorie and power of his Babilon , that is drunken with the blood of Saints and Martyrs , vtterly defaced ? I haue heard that there is an answere abroad called , [ The hunting of the Fox , ] but such lustie vnmaried Priests as bee so well fedde and fatted here in England , are fitter to haunt I wote what , than to hunt such a Fox as hee is to any great purpose : it may well be nibled at , like a great chase among mice , but I perswaded , that Papist liues not at this day , that either hath , will , or can afford it a full answere . But to returne to this fellow that prates so of Fathers and Counsels , as though they were al in his bosome , let it be obserued how cunningly hee takes that for graunted , which neither hee , nor any man else liuing is able to iustifie , [ let vs admit , saith he , that the ancient Fathers and Doctors with their adherents did eclipse the cleere light of the Gospel , which shined in the first 300. hundred yeeres . ] Againe , how can wee imagine [ that the Church of Christ , for the space of 1300. yeres lay hidden in so secret a corner , that none of the Doctors could heare of it ? ] Againe , how it can bee [ that in all that time no generall Counsell should haue intelligence of the being of the Church that professed Christianitie in so different a manner ? ] And againe , if any of the Doctors , or any generall Councell had heard of them , they had been put in the Catalogue of heretickes , and their opinions condemned : all this silly Sophistrie called petitio principij , for we neither will , nor doe , nor euer did graunt , that the Fathers eclipsed the light of the Gospell , or that the Church in their time lay hidden in secret corners , or that no generall Councell had intelligence of it : these thinges our Pettyfogging-Papist is faine to beg , and to take as granted , because he can no more proue any one of them , than he can eat a load of logges . No , no , the Fathers were members of Gods Church , and so were , and are wee : as for Poperie , what is it else but a certaine scumme , and froth , that seethes out of the liquor of the ancient Fathers , which the Scripture hath taught vs to cast into the fire .

And here let me set you downe Doctor Whitakers words , Answere to Reinolds , cap. 6. that such blind Sophisters as haue not seene them in his Booke , may see them here , and bee ashamed : the mysterie of iniquitie , saith he , which in Papistrie is fully finished , began to worke in the Apostles age , and so continued still forward in the Fathers dayes , vntill it came to his height and perfection in the Kingdome of Popery ; they slipt a little , you are fallen headlong into the pit ; they were ouerseen through infirmitie , you are blinde of malice ; they scattered some darnell in the Lords field , you haue plucked vp by the roots the good corne ; they suffered losse of this building , being not agreeable with the foundation , yet are saued ; you ouerthrow the foundation it selfe , and therefore cannot in this opinion be saued . Againe , the ancient Fathers holding the ground and foundation of Doctrine , did oftentimes build thereon stubble and straw , partly by some superstitious opinions which themselues conceiued of such inuentions , and partly by the sway & violence of custome , wherby they were caried to a liking of those things , which they saw commended and practised by others , & yet God forbid that because of some errours which they held , wee should raze their names out of the Kalender of Gods Saints , or thinke otherwise than reuerently of them . Againe , though they erred , yet were they notwithstanding good men and holy Fathers ; were not the Apostles holy men when they dreamed of an earthly Kingdome in this world ? were they void of holynesse , when they beleeued that the Gospell was to bee preached to the Iewes onely ? Many holy Fathers were infected with the errour of the Chiliasts , who notwithstanding are worthily accounted Saints of God ; Cyprian and many godly Bishops with him erred about the baptisme ministred by heretickes , yet lost they not for all that the opinion and name of holy Fathers , &c. Againe , the case of the Galatians is the same with yours , for as they thought to be iustified by the workes of the law , so doe you ; as they were warned of their errour , so are you ; as they without repentance lost the benefite of Christs sacrifice , so shall you : if the Fathers had been as often and plainely admonished as you haue been , they would being holy and sincere men , haue reformed their iudgement , and keeping the head , though they erred in some part , the Lord will not impute that error vnto them . And againe , they erred not so wilfully as you , and therefore we account not of them as of you who haue multiplyed your errours , and left almost no one ground of pure religion vnshaken .

This is a sufficient answere to such beggarly petitioners ▪ yet his mouth will not be stopt , till wee shew some of the Popish reuolts from Gods ancient truth , to the seuerall heresies whereof Poperie consisteth . To this end therefore , we may remember the double condemnation of Eustathius in two seuerall councels , Socrat. Hyst . lib. 2 , cap. 33. Casaria , and Gangra , for such Catholicke Articles as runne currant among Papists at this day ; as for example , forbidding to marry , abstinence from meats , sundring men from their wiues , and seruants from their Maisters , vnder colour of Religion , abhorring the blessing and communion of a married Priest , and such like articles , as were condemned , most of them , of all Churches vnder heauen 200. yeeres before Eustathius was borne , for thus writes Apollonius a Martyr , Euseb. hystor . lib. 5. cap. 16. speaking of the hereticke Montanus , Hic est qui coniugia dissoluere docuit , ieiuniorum leges praescripsit , qui Pepuzam ac Tinium modicas ciuitates Phrygiae , Ierusalem vocauit , vt cunctos vndique ad illas congregaret , qui pecuniarum exactores constituit , qui sub pretextu & nomine oblationum numerum captationem artificiosè concutus est , qui salaria doctrinae praedicatoribus subministrauit , vt per ventris studium doctrina ipsius inualesceret , This is he which dissolued mariages , prescribed lawes of fasting , which called Pepuza and Tinium two little Cities of Phrygia , Ierusalem , that hee might gather men from euerie place thither , which appointed exactors of money , which vnder the pretence and name of offering , did cunningly deuise to get gifts , who ministred stipends to the preachers of his doctrine , that so for his bellies sake , his doctrine might be euerie where declared . The same Father and Martyr sayth , that his Prophets and Martyrs did extort money , not onely from the rich , but also from the poore , euen widowes and Orphanes ; Marcion and Appelles forbad mariage , as appeareth in Tertullian ; The Manichies were condemned first by Pope Leo , and then by Gelasius , as the first Fathers of communicating vnder one kinde ;

De prescrip. ad haeret . Serm. 4. de quadrag . In decret pontif . distinct . in cap. comperimus .

In Catalog . dogm . Manich. lib. de anima , in fine Dialog. 2. Contra Eutyc . Can. 36. Haeres. 70.

The same heretickes were the Fathers of monkish idlenesse , and therefore Epiphanius cals them , Desidentes vespae , & nihil operantes , &c. Idle Waspes , and doing no worke . The Doctrine of Purgatory was first recommended to Tertullian by the paraclet of Montanus . The hereticke in Theodorets dialogues saith , as the Papists doe , Symbola dominici corporis & saguinis , post inuocationem sacerdotis , mutantur & alia fiunt , The Symboles of the Lords bodie and blood , after the inuocation of the Priest , are changed and made other things . And Pope Gelasius tels the hereticke Eutiches , Non desinit esse substantia panis , & naturavini , There ceaseth not to bee the substance of bread , and the nature of wine . The Counsell of Eliberis enacted , that that which is worshipped , should not bee painted vpon wals , thereby condemning Popish Imagerie . Epiphanius faith of the Audians , * * They vse great store of Apocryphall writings . Epiphanius haeres . 46. 47. 61. &c. De preser. advers. haeret . & libro de baptis . in fine . Euseb. hystor . lib. 3. cap. vlt. & lib. 2. cap. 15. De prescript . advers. haeret . Irenaeus lib. 1. cap. 23. & 24 & lib. 3. cap. 2 Canus lib 3. cap. 3. fund . 4. Bellarm. de verb. non script . lib. 4. cap. 8. Vtuntur Apochryphis multis abunde . The Tatians , the Eucratifes , the Apostolickes , and such like heretickes , were the first founders of single life , and being so highly esteemed , it tooke hold in time vpon the Church . Womens baptisme which is currant in Poperie , came first from heretickes wiues , of whome Tertullian sayth , that they were Procaces , audentes docere , contendere , exercismos agere , curationes repromittere , forsitan & tingere , Malepart , such as boldly tooke vpon them to teach , to contend , to exercise , such as promised to cure diseases , and perhaps also to baptize . Papias a Chiliast was the first father and founder of Traditions , and Peters primacie , or Romish Episcopalitie . Tertullian and Irenaeus tell vs that heretickes held the Apostles did not reueale , Omnia omnibus , sed quaedam palàm & vniuersis , quaedam secretò & paucis , All thinges to all men , but some things openly , and to all , some thinges secretly , & to a few ; as namely , Basilides , Carpocrates , Valentinus , Marcion , Carinthus . And this is the opinion of Papists at this day .

This is sufficient for a tast , that therby you may iudge how toothsome Poperie is , that consisteth of these , and many other such roots of bitternesse : And that you may be yet better infourmed how the good corne of true religion may bee ouer-growne with the weeds of popish errours and heresies , and yet in time get the victorie againe , and ouer-maister them ; Cap. 2 : 19. the Church of Thyatira so highly commended in the Reuelation , may bee a plaine document vnto vs ; which though it seemed to be euacuated by the Cataphrygian heresie : Epipha . haeres. 51. yet a hundred yeeres after , the Church reuiued againe and multiplyed , and so by Gods mercie conquered the woman Iezabel and her hereticall Prophets , & euen so it fareth with the Church of God in generall , for howsoeuer it pleased God for the punishment of our sinnes to giue Antichrist leaue by little and little to growe to such a height , that at length hee ouer-shadowed and ouer-dropped all truth , and sinceritie : yet , when God saw his time , hee began to raise vp such worthy men as lopt off his braunches , Daniel . 4. and shooke off his leaues , and scattered his fruit , and so continueth , and will continue to execute his iudgements vpon that man of sinne , that in the end he will not leaue so much as the stumps of his roots in the earth .

Touching Puritanie , which still this fellow quarrels withall , when hee can prooue it to bee either a Church , or a Religion by it selfe , we will shape him an answere ; in the meane time , let him know that no Protestant in England , or out of England , holds any doctrine necessarie to saluation , but such as is warranted by Scripture , neither are we left wholly to our selues in matters of discipline , to appoint what wee thinke good , Rom. 14.23 . 1. Cor. 14.26.40 . but are guided by the generall rules of Gods word , how to behaue our selues in the house of God : as for wresting the Scripture , when any of you all can iustifie , that the most witlesse Puritane in England , doth wrest them more violently and ridiculously , than your selues , then will I be a Protestant no longer . You Papists , though your brawles bee endlesse one with another , Canonists against Schoole-men ; Franciscans against Dominicks ; Nominals , against Reals ; Thomas against Lombard ; Scotus against Thomas ; Occam against Scotus ; Alliacensis against Occam ; Peter Sot against Catharine ; Catharine against Caietan ; Caietan against Pighius ; Iesuites against Priests ; and Priests against Iesuites : yet forsooth these dogs & cats are of one Cage , they are all members of the Romish Church , but Protestants and Puritans being diuers names that differ not in the grounds of faith , but in small points , as Richard and Thomas , or Iohn and Iames , doe in colour and complexion and countenance , they forsooth cannot bee both members of the same Church .

But what should I spend time with such a prater , as dares face vs out , that such a Religion as is now established in England , was neuer heard of in the world before King Edwards time ? I am sure there is no other Religion established in England , but that which is cleerely taught in the word of God , brought hether first by Simon a a Nicephor . lib. 2. cap 4. Zelotes , Ioseph b b Ghildas . of Arimathea , Saint c c Theodor. de cur . graecor . affect . lib. 9. Paul the Apostle , al of them , or some of them & watred stil on in the daies of d d Lib contra Iudaeos . Tertullian , e e In Ezec. ho. 4 Origen , f f Apolog. secunda . Athanasius , g g Initio lib. de Synod . contra Arian . Hilarie , h h Homil. quod Christus sit Deus aduers . gentil . Chrysostome , i i Hyst . eccles. lib. 1. cap. 10. & lib. 4. cap. 3 Theodoret ; all which ancient Fathers speake honourably of the Church , and Religion , and Prelates of Britaine . Now whether this Church , and this Religion so planted , and so watred , were the same that was restored and established in the happy daies of King Edward , and Queene Elizabeth , both Princes of blessed memorie ; it is so cleerely decided in the written word of God , that the crying and yelling of our forlorne Papists , shall neuer be able to perswade the contrarie .

Yea , but Aerius you know , as soone as hee denyed prayer for the dead , was confuted ; and the first that impugned the reall presence , was condemned in the Councell of Lateran , and so were other of your opinion as they sprange vp in later yeeres . This man , you see , will not giue ouer as long as hee can say any thing ; but goo too , let vs not thinke much to answere these triflles , Aerius indeed denyed prayer for the dead , if Epiphanius mistake not the matter ; yet I denie that hee vnderstood such kinde of praying for the dead , as the Popish Church vseth at this day : Papists pray for the release of veniall offences punishable in Purgatorie , but Aerius spake against the common errour of his time , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . namely , that the forgiuenesse of incurable sinnes might bee procured to the dead by the prayers of the liuing ; if this be heresie , then bee you heretickes your selues . Touching the reall presence , Bertram . it is well knowne , that Bertram wrote against it without any mans contradiction , 400. yeeres before the Counsell of Lateran . Aelfricus . And so did Aelfricus Archbishop of Canterburie , almost 200. yeeres after Bertram , in a Sermon which was yeerely read in our Churches at the feast of Easter . As for the time that followed in later yeeres , after the Lat eran Councell ; wee say of it , Luk. 22.53 . as our Sauiour doth of the like time , [ This is your verie houre , and the power of darkenesse . ]

Thus haue I shewed you briefly , but sufficiently , when the great compound heresie of Poperie first sprange , how it grew peece by peece till Antichrist was disclosed , 2. Thes. 2.8 . I haue told you also , how it hath been consumed by the breath of Gods mouth , and when it shall be cut downe and wither . As for Miracles and Martyrs , Cath. 7.22 . & 24 , 24. 2. Thes. 2.9 . & Apoc. 16.14 . the one prooueth you to bee th● brood of Antichrist , of whose lying wonders the scripture hath foretold vs ; the other , namely , Gods Martyrs , they crie out for vengeance against blood-suckers , for so we are taught in the Reuelation , and such blood-suckers are you , and haue euer beene , as Master Foxe hath most truely set it downe to your euerlasting shame and confusion : such Miracles as yours bee , wee can shew none , neither can wee make Martyrs , as you can ; God giue vs all grace to keepe that way and path , that leadeth and directeth to the Kingdome of heauen ; and graunt vs rather good Bishops without succession , than succession without good Bishops , that all of vs , both Bishops and people , high and low , rich and poore , one with another may glorifie God the Father of our lord Iesus Christ . So be it .

Ierem. Cap. 49.10 .

I haue discouered Esau , I haue vncouered his secrets , and he shall not be able to hide himselfe .

Tertul. de prescript . aduersus heretic .

Haereses de quorundam infirmitatibus habent quod valent , nihil valentes , si in bene valentem fidem incurrant .