Immediate addresse vnto God alone First deliuered in a sermon before his Maiestie at Windsore. Since reuised and inlarged to a just treatise of inuocation of saints. Occasioned by a false imputation of M. Antonius De Dominis vpon the authour, Richard Montagu. Montagu, Richard, 1577-1641. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A07647 of text S112845 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 18039). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 400 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 127 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A07647 STC 18039 ESTC S112845 99848088 99848088 13165 2240883152

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A07647) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 13165) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 1146:11) Immediate addresse vnto God alone First deliuered in a sermon before his Maiestie at Windsore. Since reuised and inlarged to a just treatise of inuocation of saints. Occasioned by a false imputation of M. Antonius De Dominis vpon the authour, Richard Montagu. Montagu, Richard, 1577-1641. [16], 227, [1] p. Printed by William Stansby, for Matthew Lownes and William Barret, London : 1624. Printer's name from STC. Running title reads: A treatise of the inuocation of saints. Reproduction of the original in the British Library. eng De Dominis, Marco Antonio, 1560-1624 -- Controversial literature -- Early works to 1800. Prayer -- Early works to 1800. Christian saints -- Cult -- Early works to 1800. eebo Immediate addresse vnto God alone. First deliuered in a sermon before his Maiestie at Windsore. Since reuised and inlarged to a just treatise of inuoc Montagu, Richard 1624 253 72175 1188 0 0 0 2 0 167.37 F The rate of 167.37 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the F category of texts with 100 or more defects per 10,000 words. 2005-05 Assigned for keying and markup 2005-07 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2005-09 Sampled and proofread 2005-09 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2005-10 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

IMMEDIATE ADDRESSE VNTO GOD ALONE .

First deliuered in a Sermon before his MAIESTIE at Windsore .

Since reuised and inlarged to a just Treatise of INVOCATION of SAINTS .

Occasioned by a false imputation of M. ANTONIVS DE DOMINIS vpon the Authour , RICHARD MOVNTAGV .

LONDON Printed by William Stansby , for Matthew Lownes and William Barret . 1624.

TO THE RIGHT REVEREND FATHER IN GOD , AND RIGHT HONORABLE LORD , JOHN , Lord Bishop of Lincolne , Lord Keeper of the great Seale , of his Majesties most Honorable Priuie Councell , Visitor of the Collegiate Churches of Windsore and ●●on . Right Reuerend in Christ , Right Honorable ,

IT is now three yeeres , and more , that preaching at Windsore , as my course then fell , before his Majestie , I tooke my Text , Psal. 50.15 . which that Sunday was verbum dici in die suo , Read in the publike Seruice of the Church , according to directions in the Booke of Common prayer . In Pulpits , and in popular Sermons , J nor like it in others , nor Practise it my selfe ; to meddle much or far with any Point of abstruse , or controuerted Diuinitie . For common capacities , are made and fitted for matter of meane and ordinarie apprehension . Preaching is appointed to make men better in practique knowledge ; and so was euer vsed of the Ancients : not acute and subtile for discourse and speculation , which is the ordinarie pietie of these times . But as then it fell out , such was the Auditorie , so extraordinarie The wordes , as they fell in processe of handling that Psalme , and of that importment , Call vpon me in time of trouble ; So direct and plaine for addresse vnto God : vnto Him alone : for Immediate accesse without assistance or mediation , J could not well waue the Case of Inuocation , Aduocation , and Intercession of Saints and Angels , so much perswaded , vrged , practised , and abused , in the common vse and custome of the present Church of Rome . ( And yet not so , as to dwell vpon it wholly , or to make it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , altogether . ) Concluding it a point of plaine folly , if no more , for any man to implore the Helpe of others , to vse Aduocates and Assistants vnto God , in any exigence , time of neede or necessitie , who is so directed , counselled , and inuited by God himselfe , to immediate accesse without mediation , in , Call vpon me . Of folly and ridiculous absurditie , as it is by them conceiued , taught , and laid downe : euen by the most learned , judicious , and aduised amongst them ; though J know , in point of practice and performance , the simple vulgar people , not acquainted with , nor capable of Scholasticall niceties , or difference in termes , of Inuocation and Aduocation , Helpe originall , and deriued ; goe to it down right with direct addresse indeed , vnto flat Impietie against God , and Jdolatrie in their ordinarie deuotion vnto the Creature . J was as Conclusiue against this custome , as I could be , as directly opposite vnto their Doctrine of Aduocation as Contradiction could make me ; and yet Right Honorable , I haue beene vouched , for an Abettor of their practice , at least in part ; I am sure , slandered in my Opinion and Preaching . There was present at my Sermon , that infamous Ecebolius of these times , Religion is desultor , Archbishop somtime of Spalata , then Deane of that Church , Marcus Antonius de Dominis . This Man and Runaway from Religion ( a man , if any other of his Coate and Calling , apt enough to be circumcised and denie Christ Jesus , if the Grand Signior would but make him chiefe Muftie , so much would Ambition and Couetousnesse , his bosome infirmities , sway with Him ) in his late impudent , leud , shamelesse Recantation , in which he professeth and proclaymeth himselfe vnto the world a Knaue in graine , a man of a cauterised Conscience , and prostituted Honestie vnto all , euen Ciuill , conuersation ; as without all modestie , he belyeth that Church in generall , which my selfe haue heard him often publiquely and priuatly commend and admire : As he spareth not Particulars , of most Eminent place : so also , amongst others , hath he belyed me ; as if J concurred with himselfe now , in opinion ; or auowed that ridiculous Romane Doctrine and Practice of Praying vnto Saints and Angels , in time of need . For , He heard with great delight and content , as he saith , one of his then Canons of Windsore , preaching before the Kings Maiestie , maintayne , That there was no cause why euery man might not turne himselfe vnto his Angell keeper , and say , Holy Angell keeper , Pray for me . Hee nameth me not in this passage , I graunt , but wrappeth vp a certaine quendam in generall and in doubtfull termes . And had J not my selfe professed , En adsum qui feci , J well and quietly had rested blamelesse , ●y a namelesse aspersion , and left them to ghesse at randon , or shoot at Rouers , who would happely haue fastned it otherwhere . But nothing was said , why I should shunne the Charge , or diuert the Imputation vpon any . And because the first notice that euer I had hereof , being from ( though at second hand ) your Lordship , I could not possesse my Soule in patience , without giuing your Lordship intimation , how vntruly , an aspersion of siding that way , had by him , so loose a Lozell , beene cast on that society , whereof himselfe sometimes had beene , and my selfe am yet , through his Majesties Grace , a member : the rather , because wee haue all vnder his sacred Maiestie , especially in Cases of this condition , a Reference vnto your Honor , as our Visitor . May your Lordship then be pleased , to take notice of his dealing , conformable to the rest of his leuder actions , in his turne-coating from side to side . He stileth me , One of his Canons of Windsore : as if , for That , my dependance had beene vpon Him , or my selfe , and the rest of my Brethren there had beene his by appropriation . What the course is in the Court of Rome , J know not , where Places of such qualitie are bought and sold . But here J am sure , He was but one of vs , The fundamentall Statutes running thus , De tredecim Canonicis , quorum vnus Custos , vel Decanus existat . The Deane , and Prebends there , being no mans Canons , but his Maiesties : who by Right Originall , is , in his Royall Predecessors , Founder and Patron of that College . Secondly , he doth not bl●sh to write , that he heard me with great delight and content . Whereof He nor was , nor could be capable . For in his owne intent and meaning to heare , is to vnderstand and apprehend . This he did not : this he could not doe . For I preached in English , vnto an English Auditorie , though composed then of Royall and Noble presence . English , hee might heare ; but could not vnderstand , except carptim and sparsim , now and then , here and there a word , or halfe a sentence . And yet I know he Read , for I was present : and subscribed ( he saith since , against his conscience , the more Knaue he ) to injoy a good Benefice , for I was a witnesse thereto , the Articles of 1562. in West-Ilsly Church in Barkshire . But Reade I can that which J vnderstand not : Vnderstanding and Reading are two things . And yet , this honest man , as if he had vnderstood my Sermon from point to point , shameth not to say , he heard me . Which chiefly and thirdly is false for the mayne . The wordes , he putteth on me , I professe before God , I spake not . I nor did , nor doe hold the purport of them , Certum & de fide . The most that himselfe , who must now say , what they at Rome will haue him , is this , and no more , Peraduenture , or , it is Probable , quòd sic . But that which he did heare and vnderstand is this , for these wordes J spake in Latin , not in English , Sed de Angelo custode , fortassis ampliandum . No moe , nor fewer wordes then so , this way . How these wordes , so spoken , should affect him with such content , J cannot tell . I am sure , and can make good , they are farre enough remooued from abetting or maintayning ; that ordinarie course of Inuocation or assistancy of Saints and Angels : euen of Angels Guardians , that continually attend vs , as farre as resolution is from doubting . But howsoeuer , I resolued , euen instantly vpon first notice of this defamation , to say somewhat in the Case . And thereupon , repayring vnto my Papers , so soone as I could finde any leisure , out of my briefer Notes , for J wrote not my Sermon verbatim , J drew into a forme , the substance , J am sure , of all which was then deliuered : and enlarged it with much accesse , of more then I could well deliuer , or did speake within the compasse of an houre , especially , or rather wholly in that Eristical part and opposition which is inter partes litigantes , about Mediation in Jnuocation . Which I thought it my dutie to offer vnto the view and censure of your Lordship , in regard of that Reference , which , as a Canon of Windsore , I haue vnto your Honor , our Visitor . But much rather in respect of priuate obligation , in consideration of my owne particular . For , let the world take notice , if it may concerne any , your Honor is He , vnto whom , next vnto his most sacred Maiestie , my most gracious Soueraigne and Master , J owe more , then to all the world beside , though I confesse my selfe very much obliged vnto some of your Lordships Reuerend ranke . So that , I could not answere it vnto God and Man , if any act of mine , voluntarie and direct , should iustly giue your Lordship any distaste of my carriage or disposition in this kinde . And because your Lordship hath beene pleased to finde so much leisure , euen in your manifold distractions diuersly , and very great employments euery way , both in Church and State , as to reade it ouer , and approue it in your most able iudgement , and giue it your Honorable warrant to the Presse ; I could not but make it your owne in publike , both out of dutie and discretion ; professing vnfainedly , in the word of a Priest , Fecisti vt viuam & moriar , ingratus . Jn which Profession , and Protestation J rest , recommending your Honors long health and happinesse , in my daily prayers , as J haue good cause , vnto God Almightie , and my selfe vnto your Honors seruice and deuotion

Most obliged , RI. MOVNTAGV .
A TREATISE OF THE INVOCATION of SAINTS . PSAL. 50.15 .

Call vpon mee in the time of trouble , so I will heare thee , and deliuer thee , and thou shalt glorifie mee .

IT is read and remembred , Act. 2.37 . that they who were pricked at the heart with S. Peters Sermon , As we vse to doe it . being streighted , and not knowing what course to take , doe instantly , as men in perplexitie vse , fall in with 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; Men , say they , and Brethren , what shall wee doe ? Thus they make demurres , vpon that present exigent , out of customary practice , in course of kind . For so it is : The man that is in miserie , will make his moane . Hee that is distressed , will soone enough complaine . Set hee neuer so good a face vpon the matter , wittingly , perhaps , at least vnawares we may , take it vp , dropping from his mouth , What course shall I take ? What shall I doe ?

In this Case , vpon this Quaere , What shall I doe ? Euery man will answere , each mans heart and motion will suggest , and reply : What ? but , Sit not still : cast about : looke abroad : seeke out for some succour , and reliefe . At least goe Call and Cry for helpe , if that ( peraduenture ) there be any nigh at hand , that will Stay , Consider , Heare , and giue Succour in Distresse .

It is not euer vsuall , nor a common practice with God , So it is not with●ut good reason to call for helpe in time of trouble . which was sometime affoorded extraordinarily by him , Open thy mouth wide , and I will fill it . Or , Stand still , and expect Saluation of the Lord . But the God who at first made vs , without our owne helpe or Concurrence , will not Saue , nor deliuer vs , without our owne indeauours , and Cooperation .

Our Creation , and our Being we haue from Him alone : who so wisely disposed of vs afterward , that in point of Preseruation , wee are not more passiues and dependants . To Deliuer , is his Act , in time of trouble : But to Call , and that formerly , is vpon our part to be performed first . And indeed , hither Nature addresseth vs , in Extremitie ; as being euer Sui Conserua●ri●s , desirous to preserue our Being in State . And therefore , Liue of our owne welfare , affecteth our Good , and well Subsisting . Skin for skin , and all that a man hath , will he giue for his life , if it bee in hazard , was spoken vpon no other but this ground . Therefore Sense is apprehensiue in extremitie . Vnderstanding is quick and operatiue vpon smart , hurt , losse , or danger . The Powres and Faculties of Soule and Bodie , are as soone summoned so standing readie in pr●cinct● , to doe their Deuoyre , in whatsoeuer they may , for Ease , Relaxation , Helpe , Deliuerance ; if it may bee had . Dauids practice in this point was not particular . Hee fell vpon a common course of kind , When , He called and cried , hee looked round about , to see if any would comfort him . Psal. 142.4 . If any man cared for his soule . So that , What shall I doe , in Time of trouble , is a Case soone resolued of on all hands . What but this , Looke vp : looke about . But the question is vnto . For Men are not so readie to helpe , as to pitie . Seeke out for succour : Call , and also , Cry for helpe . But vnto Whom shall I goe and complaine ? vnto whom with good Successe , may I make my moane ? or tender my humble Supplication ? The best reliefe to be gotten , or expected , was long since resolued to haue beene this , Omnes miscerentur . Nemo succurrit . Alas my Brother : God helpe the man , and the like are Almes , Seneca . and Charitie very ordinarie , because they runne at a low rate , and may largely bee conferred without much expense . But it is a matter of greater charge , and cost , to powre Wine , and Oile into wounds . It will stand vs in much more then so , to take care with the Samaritane for recuring , of the languishing wounded man ; if he lie vpon our hands for his recouerie .

Wee haue heard of , no doubt , and sometime commiserated peraduenture , his complaint , who in the anguish of his agonized soule , and in the sore extremities of his vnknowne paines , had cause enough to lament his owne , not to be expressed Case and Sorrowes thus , Haue you no regard , O all you that passe by the way , Lament . 1.12 . As being disrepected ; not regarded , much lesse comforted , of those , who saw with their eies , which remorslesly , they slighted ouer in their affections . Dauid in the dayes of his indurance , though , hee Called and Cried too , as himselfe professeth : though , he looked vpon his right hand , and vpon his left ; yet , if we beleeue his one relation , found no place to flye vnto : and no man cared for his Soule , Psal. 142.4 . Wee are commonly to seeke , and vnresolued vpon this Quere , Vnto whome shall I make my supplication ? And tha● in a 〈…〉 re●pect .

The Resolution herein is not easie : For two Respects . First , for Disabilitie , of Power to performe . Men cannot doe Euermore what they would doe , their meanes are not answerable vnto the good wils and desires . As not able . As not willing .

Secondly , for Disproportion , in the will vnto habilitie : Few are so well disposed as to doe what they can . For there is , if not , a Lion in the way : yet a Reason of profit to withstand . It will Cost more to Succour , then to Commiserate . Agar for examples sake , would with all her Heart haue relieued Ismael ; being readie to Dye for want of drinke , Gen. 21.15 . Motherly Compassion did whatsoeuer was to bee done for the Childe : yet the poore woman wanted to relieue him . The Case was otherwise with the Priest and Leuite , both of them might , it was in their Power , haue shewed more Mercie vnto the wounded man , had their good Inclination beene as well fitted , as their meanes and abilitie were consorted . Gallio Deputie of Achaia , could haue taught the Iewes , with authoritie , better manners ; and freed Sosthenes from their outragiousnesse . But his affection was not at all that way . Gallio cared not what they did , Acts 18.17 . If Will or Power , or both be wanting , wee may long looke and hope , and Call , and Cry , for helpe , but all in vaine , Non est , qui curet , None are nigh , to take notice of our Case or indurance .

Now I would bee loth in Deliquio , Therefore , specially in time of trouble , it is good to find out some other vpon whom to Call . when my Life is fleeting : when Soule and Bodie , scarce can hold together , at such a time , in such a pinch , 〈◊〉 place of Bezoar water , Aqua-vitae , or some such infusion to reuiue the spirits , haue only cold water cast vpon my face , which may weat the surface , not releeue the trance . So vpon an exigent of extremitie , Court holy water is but small comfort refreshing , the which , but actiuated with Aurum potabile , worketh scarce somewhat , without that ingredient , no great effect at all . I would be loth , being to leape a Ditch for my Life , relie my selfe vpon a broken Pole , a rotten Stay , a Reed of Egypt , which not only faileth , and layeth me in the Ditch , but the dishiuered splinters runne into my hands , and wound me sore . I would bee loth being naked , cold , hungry , to meet with no better repast and refreshing , then , Depart in peace ; bee warmed ; bee filled : and yet ▪ nor meate , nor drinke , nor clothing giuen mee . The Almes and Charitie of the Hypocrite , Iames 2.16 . Miserable Comforters are all these : as good , no better , then Iohs friends . Therefore in Extremitie , when my life is at a lift , or my state set vpon a desperate Cast , I will hold him my very friend indeed , and acknowledge his Benefit with gratefull recognition of his Loue and Kindship , who not onely , doth affoord mee , the helpe hee can Himselfe , and commeth to the rescue with all his Power and Possibilitie : But him also , that aduiseth , or addresseth me , when I may be sure not to faile of assistance in time of need : to meete with the man , That both Can and Will releeue me . When , He that hath Power , doth not want Good will , his Client , his Petitioner in distresse , needeth not at all despaire , or bee much dismayed , for Non caret effectu quod voluere duo . He is sure to be heard , if these two conspire , and to be deliuered in the Day of trouble . But such a Friend is not euery where to bee found like good Corne cast into bad ground , Thicke sowne , but thinne come vp : Nor can euery man tell who , or where is He.

I haue seene a man sometime neere drowning , and readie to sinke vnder the water , And better to vse one sure meanes , then to try a great many vncertaine . catch at euery Bul-rush that swimmeth by : lay hold on each Sedge or Reed that groweth in , or floateth on , the water willing to saue by any meanes , if it might be , his life , yet not knowing how or in what sort to assure it . In Extremities and Exigences , so it falleth out , men multiply deuices many wayes : haue many proiects in hand , and purposes in minde , and also peraduenture sundry assayes on foot ? We haue read in the Prophet of some that , Sacrifice vnto their Nets : of others that , Digge Pits as deepe as Hell . Many make friends of the wicked Mammon . And , By our owne tongues , say diuers , wee will preuaile . Some put their trust in Princes , the Sonnes of men : Runne to Physicians for their health . Thanke Tobacco happily for their Life : the Prince in State , for their Liuelihood and their meanes . Great men and such , as sway with authoritie , need seeke for no supportance otherwhere . For they like to a boysterous whirlewind , beare all before them , and carrie downe whatsoeuer they vndertake . As for that , s●r● defence indeed , The name of the Lord , vnto the Righteous , it commeth very seldome within the Verge of their thoughts ; much lesse to the Centre of their Actions themselues being a long from God in Life and Conuersation : and therefore running Circular , vp and downe , into many Imaginations and speculations what to doe .

But see the difference in euent , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Fox had many waies to escape , the Cat but one way and no moe . In effect it is that resolution in the Prouerbes , The riches of the Rich man are his confidence : But the name of the Lord is a sure defence indeed , the Righteous runneth thether and is safe . The Case was once , as is imagined , That the Cat and Fox were in deepe discourse , which way best to make escape when the hunt was vp . Reynard discoursed of this and that . For he had deuices his Budget full . The Cat had but one way , but it was a sure one , and worth , in Conclusion , all his plots and policies , to climbe a Tree , or get vp into an House , which stood her in good stead when Reynard failed . As they stood thus discoursing , they heard the Cry , the Dogges came vp hot vpon the scent : The Cat lightly leaped into a Tree and escaped : the Foxe was caught and torne in pieces , for all his policies : None of his deuices stood him then in stead .

This vncertaintie in all humane things . We reade in the Prophets much to this purpose . Their turning of deuices prosper not , Are they not esteemed as the Potters clay ? Into the Pits which they digge , themselues are fallen . Their Nets are broken : the Birds escaped vpon the wing : Nay , oftentime it commeth to passe , that the Fowler is caught in his owne snares . Their tongues taught to talke at randon against God , cleaue , at most need , vnto the roofe of their mouthes . Riches and Princes faile both at a pinch : and Friends runne away in the time of trouble . All humane abets , are well compared vnto Summer Brookes and water courses in the Wildernesse : dry without water in time of drought and extremitie , running ouer in Winter , when water needeth not . The Trauellers to Tema , were deceiued in their hopes : the Carauans of Sheba in their expectations : finding no water there to drinke , died with thirst in the Land of Desolation . He said well , that had seene much in his time , and was as Potent as any in his daies : An Horse is but a vaine thing to saue a man : and to deliuer by his great strength . Who professed againe to purpose vpon his owne particular , I will not trust in my Bow , It is not any Sword that shall helpe me . And semblably gaue counsell , to the well aduised , Put not your trust in Princes , nor in any child of man : For why ; there is no helpe in them . Samson , we reade was surprized when his great strength failed him The Riches and Wisdome of King Salomon , could not secure the state of Rehoboam , nor yet free his owne times from some troubles . Achitophels Head-piece , so working and practique , brought his necke vnto the halter . Aman that great Minion of the Persian Monarch , was disfauo●rited in a moment : and yet lifted vp to looke higher then hee did before . In the vse and custome of the World , Reason of state for common course of management , calleth Reason of Religion vnto Counsell seldome : as if God were not interessed in the affaires of men , but stood and beheld , what , and not wherefore , a farre off . But yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , at a pinch indeed , the profoundest Politician is often at a stand : In God it is not . the greatest States man is to seeke , and at a losse : there is No helpe for him but in his God . God must stand in procinctu : put himselfe into the breach , and come on lustily to the rescue , or else 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , For two reasons . What shall we doe ? for all is lost . Therefore , Call vpon him , haue addresse to his assistance in time of Trouble .

For first he is of Power , to make good his partie , against the Deuill and all the World beside : Who hath resisted the will of the Lord ? His power . Who can stand with Him ? or stand before Him ? much lesse can any stand against Him , or hinder his purposes to take effect . As hee is Elshadai , The Almightie , the Lord and commander of both Heauen and Earth . So is Hee Emanuel , God with vs also : Our God of old ; the God of our Fathers , and of their Children . And from Him Our God , Compassion doth plentifully flow . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ where these two concurre , a man may set vp his rest , and , ne quid vltra , for assurance rest contented .

Now of his Power there is no Question , but Hee Can. No Christian : no reasonable humane Creature , doth doubt of this , or make scruple of it , that the God , and Lord of all things is Almightie . But assure me hee will doe it , and then I rest assecured : His willingnesse . Power and will both concurring in One , giue full resolution to all doubts , and satisfaction , which any way arise for point of performance . Let mee haue his Promise that Hee will , and I rest secured for Performance . God is not a man that He should lye , nor as the Sonne of man that Hee should alter the thing that is gone out of his lips .

And we haue his Promise , Who hath promised to heare That faithfull God and true : I will heare and deliuer thee . To Heare , is to Regard , in Gods Dialect and phrase of speech both ascendendo , In whose Dialect to heare i● to regard . from Earth to Heauen in due Obedience , when man is to doe what God will haue him , as Heare my Law O my People : Psal. 78.1 . In effect , the same with that which followeth , Incline thine Eares vnto the words of my mouth ; As also Descendendo , from Heauen to Earth , The Lord heare thee in the day of Trouble : the same with that which followeth by Interpretation . The name of the God of Iacob defend thee . So at Present , in this passage it is instanced here , and per omnia in effect the same . He maketh no stop , at , I will heare : And who ioyneth hearing & deliuering so close together . but commeth in instantly with , And deliuer thee . Accept both thy Person and Petition . In gracious Acceptance , Heare and Regard : In reall Performance , Deliuer thee . First so : then thus : For Pitie must goe before Performance . It is impossible for any to regard : that heareth him not Cal , or Crie , Sue , Petition , or make his case known , whom He doth regard : and Deliuereth , vpon regard . Vpon regard had , assistance doth insue . For Pitty runneth soone in gentle heart . Can God behold vs , his , in Misery & heauines , and not soone compassionate our distresse . This Text is to the contrary most pregnant , if wee were once resolued of the Parties therein , Mee and Thee , which indeed , are Indefinite , no way determined : and so wee may aske the Eunuchs question , Of whom speaketh the Prophet in this place ?

Ye● , before we call it is good to be resolued of both the parties , Mee , and Thee . Aske wee may ; but if we will bee soone resolued , of that doubt and scruple from the Text. For though the Parties interessed , Me and Thee , are not expressed directly in the passage , they are necessarily inferred from the premises , and so concluded to bee no other , then the Creator and Creature ; God and Man whom God hath made ; The Lord and his people whom hee hath redeemed . And that this intercourse and Negotiation , for so it is , and seemeth to be , is betwixt these two , Me , and Thee , appeareth by Collation of ver. 7. Which refer to the euenth Verse . Heare , O my people , and I wil speake , I my selfe will testifie against thee , O Israel : for I am God , euen thy God . There first beginneth this Commerce to be set on foot , and here they hold on in the same termes . So that the Premises considered , it cannot bee questioned , but that To Call , in time of trouble : to Heare and deliuer out of Distresse , are actions interchanged , betwixt God and his Chosen , Mee and Thee .

Wee beleeue an honest man vpon his word ; All these things being considered , we may take it vpon his word , that Heare and Deliuer will follow one another . such a mans Word , sooner then some mans Bond ; and shall wee make doubt of the God of Truth ? Him , so Righteous in all his wayes : so holy in all his workes ? Challenge him who can for breach of Promise , for forgetting his Couenant and stipulation . Hee made a Couenant with Abraham , for Himselfe , his Seed . Ero Deus tuus , & seminis tui . And did hee not renue it vnto Isaac for a Law : and confirme it vnto Iacob for an euerlasting Testament ? Because hee said in his Holinesse , I will not faile Dauid : Are we not often put in mind what things , how great he did for Dauids sake ? Is it not yet vpon record , to stand for euer , that they were The sure mercies of Dauid . Whom he loueth once , he loueth euerlastingly on his part ; his Gifts and Promises , are all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 without Repentance , as much as appertaineth vnto Him . If man breake not Couenant in , Thou shalt bee my People ; God will not faile on his part , I will be thy God , and the God of thy seed .

Men so interessed , are most what , It hath beene the confidence of all the faithfull so to take it . many of them , well perswaded for the point . It was a strong Confidence & strange resolution of some , Psalm . 46.2 . We will not feare though the Earth be mooued , and the Hills be carried into the middest of the Sea . In effect , though the Fabricke of the World bee out of frame ; though Heauen and Earth , and all those mother Elements of the World , bee blended , shaken , and vpon point of dissipation ; Why ? Vpon what ground are they so confident ? The Lord of Hosts , this is the reason , is with vs , the God of Iacob , is our refuge . The Lord of Hosts : Who can resist him ? The God of Iacob ; who need doubt of him . God Almightie , can doe what hee will : God of Iacob , will doe what hee can . Answerable to his promise of old , Ero Deus tuus , & seminis tui , Thy God I am , and the God of thy seed after thee for euer . Our God now , this is their resolution , As our Fathers God , in time of old . At hand to helpe vs , in time of trouble , as hee hath beene Good and gracious vnto all our Kinne . Hee that is I am : can not become , I haue beene , or I will be hereafter . Therefore Verse 7. as in Proprietie , I am God ; so in Appropriation , I am thy God . Mine and Thine are possessiue Relatiues , each hath deepe interest in other . So that , My God , thou art Holy : my Soule , thou art happy , in hauing so good a God , as is our God , so readie , so willing to doe thee good .

To come home to the purpose ; Hee that can diuert or preuent a mischiefe , will not sit still and look on in the ruine of his house , nor irrelentlesly see the desolation of those , who are indeed , & are called , Psalm . 83.3 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the hidden , secret , the receiued ones of God , nor the vtter destruction of his deerest friends . The Deuill indeed will no doubt , antiquum obtinere , suggest in extreamity to dismay and driue vs into despaire , There is no helpe for him in his God . But Loquitur è proprijs : who bad him say so , or put this word into his mouth ? God neuer did it : Hee speaketh it onely of himselfe : and himselfe , was a Lyer from the beginning . Absit enim vt credat aliquis , cuilibet minimo quicquam d●futurum in confessione nominis constituto . Beleeue not him therfore , who is the Father of lyes . Beleeue his word rather , who is truth it selfe ; who keepeth his promise better then Princes doe , and could neuer yet bee challenged for non performance of what hee had said . Beleeue his Promise , I will heare and deliuer , who is and continueth Truth it selfe for euer : and could not yet be challenged for non performance .

Beleeue his Promise , and for farther assurance , And it may be further perswaded by his extraordinary affection vnto his . take in by the way the deere affection he beareth vnto His owne : the Partie interessed ; more then ordinarie , because themselues are more then of the common sort , Diliguntur alieni , this is the ascent of Loue , magis proximi : maximè proprij . Which is Transcendent , because it is Gods . For Perfect are the workes of the mightie God , intimated to vs , as wee can conceiue of them , at some extent indeed , though not their owne largenesse , onely thus Far , and to this End , that wee may perceiue how they doe excell ; Deus su●● Nobi● nostra ●alutis amorem significaturus , saith Chrisostome , gallinarum charitatem , Patrum curam , matris affectum , sponsi amore●● praesefert ; which are the greatest affections named amongst men . Non quia tentum duntaxatam●t , but because wee doe not vsually apprehend or conceiue , any greater instances of Loue then these . Could we imagine greater , yet would his surmount ; as exceeding in proportion whatsoeuer is , or is named great . For as the man is , such is his strength , as is the agent such the action . The greatest and largest sized Loue on Earth , is the affection of a Mother to the Sonne of her Wombe . Can a mother forget her child , saith God , and not haue compassion vpon tht Sonne of her wombe ? Naturall affection , in tendernesse of compassion , and embowelled pittie wil say no. She cannot ▪ But were it possible ; could shee doe so ; yet would not I forget you , saith the Lord . The Reason is not only from his being Great , that hee is Paramount in all Perfections , by himselfe communicated to his Creatures ; as hauing and enioying that without measure , which in measure proportioned hee hath imparted vnto vs : But also and rather , quia Nos ●mamus necessario . If wee Loue , it is because wee cannot chuse but doe so ; and often know no reason why wee doe so , or should doe so . Necessitie causeth vs to doe as wee doe ▪ either that of Nature , or Conueniencie . But de merâ voluntate diligit Deus , There is no other moouer of Him , then his Will. Meere gracious goodnesse in Himselfe , without motiue on our part maketh him for to doe as hee doth , being disposed to doe good . Motus à se misericordiam facit , à Nobis motus facit iustitiam . In no case let it once be imagined of man , that God hath now at last forgotten to be gracious , or shut vp his louing kindnesse in displeasure . Make no question , hee hath not , but is the same hee was euer . His Promise is past and vpon record , I will heare thee and deliuer thee . And his words and meaning euer went together . Had hee not purposed and fully resolued , To heare and Deliuer in Time of Trouble : Hee would neuer haue Inuited vs to Call : nor Directed vs to Call on mee . For what , and to whom , wee had beene yet to seeke : left to follow , and to wander in our owne wayes : and take vs to our owne Imaginations : and then by all likelihood and probabilitie wee had balked the right way , Otherwise our addresse had rather been to some other . not fallen vpon Him , who is willing and able only to relieue vs . Rather had our addresse beene vnto Any other , then vnto Him : and that principally in two regards ; for Disproportion , And that in two regards . then for Disaffection betwixt Mee and Thee , God and Man , to which two , adde Ignorance to know and to vnderstand what is for our good , and auaile in the day of trouble . Which like the three destroying bands of the Philistines , 1. Sam. 13.17 . consume all good indeauours in the Land .

I may wel say , Inuited , nor directed : for so it is ; But contrariwise it is only vnto him . By way of direction . Cal vpon me , as addressed from God , as it stands in this passage considered here , is indeed by way of Direction and Inuitation . Consider Me , in respect of Thee alone , and goe no farther then Inuoca me , Call vpon me , that is , reflect vpon the Souereigne command God hath ouer man : the necessa●●● dependance , man hath vpon God , in Esse simply to haue his Being : and in Bene esse also , all Good things from him , so Call vpon mee is a strict iniunction , ab Imperio : no gentle Inuitation , à Consilio . Nay by way of command indispensible at all 〈◊〉 . A precept tendred vnder that high commanding forme , Doe this and liue , the stile of the statutes of the Lord of Hosts , in which all those eternall morall Duties are tendred , which binde vs semper habitually , albeit not ad semper Actually . Specially , if by Calling vpon God , wee vnderstand the worship of God . So conceiued , and so vnderstood , Call vpon me , is Honour me , Worship me , Feare my name ▪ Loue , serue , and obey me . So , How shall they call on him whom they haue not knowne , is , how shall they serue and worship Him as they ought ? And this is a Dutie indispensable , at all times , not that of trouble alone : An Honorable respect incommunicable not to be imparted vnto any Creature : not to be suspended at our pleasure . Thus , in all places , at all times , vpon all Occasions , Call vpon me , by way of eternall Obligation . And in this sense and meaning , vpon None but Me. Such Honour is due vnto God alone .

It is confessed vpon all hands , by the parties diuided in point of Pietie , that This Honour is Gods peculiar due . Latria , is for none but only God . That as Authour originall of Deliuerance ▪ that as Donor of euery good gift indeed , God is alone to bee called on , hee will not part stakes with any other . But here the passa●● 〈…〉 , and so rather a kind Inuitation . Had he stayed here at , Call vpon Me , and gone no farther , I would haue resolued it a strict Iniunction of a morall and eternally binding Dutie : But because the Passage is of larger extent , and taketh in withall , The time of trouble , I suppose it a tendry of kindnesse rather , a Gentle Inuitation , to come and Call : with a needfull Direction , vpon Me.

The time of trouble is not euery Day . For it takes in withall the time of trouble , which is not euery day . A day of Compunction , Psal. 69.18 . and therefore also , of Anguish , and Coarctation , Esay 37.3 . A day of darknesse and of blacknesse , Ioel 2.2 . Fire , sword , storme , tempest : waters , many , raging , deepe and roaring . Threatned , imminent , pressing oppressing , ouerwhelming and sweeping desolations . When ab intra from within , as great or greater , doe adde vnto the bitternesse of that Day , and agrandise the heauie weight of trouble . When friends are farre off : Consolation not neere : Counsell is to seeke : Inuention at a stand . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ Thy selfe and Thine at point to perish , to bee vtterly vndone and cast away for euer , Then , at that time , in This day of trouble call vpon me , and I will heare . As much as kindest kindnesse can offer .

So wee are directed to informe vs first , And this direction may well amend our ignorance . and amend vs in our Ignorance and want of Direction , that are much to seeke , and naturally instantly haue addresse vnto quò me vertam , What shall I doe ? which is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the voice of amazed admiration : but properly 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the word of one at gaze and at a stand ; not knowing what to doe , how to resolue , which way to take , or turne himselfe in those streights . Ignorance of good , of right , of behoofe , is the Naturall disease of the soule of man : euen since that great Light of supernaturall Grace , from the Sunne of Righteousnesse , then verticall in man the little World , was vtterly extinct in the fall of Adam . Ignorance since then , is the Cause of those Curses which we indure or incurre , in the course of our Life any way . Had not Samson lost his Eyes , he had not left his Life so , with the price of his own bloud vpon the Philistines : no Man so dearely payed the pawnage of folly in his separation from the God of his life , the Death of his soule , and losse of indowments of Grace . Remooue this Ignorance in the vnderstanding , and eftsoones the formes of things appeare as they are , crooked , streight , mishapen , entire . Vpon sight of Errours , Confession is Instant , Non putâram , I was not aware : I did it of Ignorance : I wist not what I did : agnizing the Originall of our miscariage . Hence our Designes and Consultations consequent are , Quò me vertam , how may I mend that which is amisse ? Thus being dazeled , wee are to seeke groping , as the men of Sodome , at Lots doore : or as Elymas , to find a guide , wandring else as men do in a Maze . Our tongues teach our hearts , what they thinke or should ; God helpe the man thus wrapped in Errours ; and lost in the Labyrinth of deuices . And God doth helpe him : by Direction , For it le●des vs to call vpon him . Call vpon mee . Which leaueth no plea for farther Ignorance : but vs inexcusable , if wee goe wrong , and Call vpon any else but Me. It is formerly obserued , what is the Course of kinde , men multiply deuices many wayes : The reason is euident , they know not the way ; nor had euer hit vpon it but by Direction ▪ of this or some such as this , Call vpon me ; from God .

And yet 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , we must haue somewhat more then so . It assures vs of a hearing . In a Case of wrong and Iniustice done by some great Grantorto , I know my Recourse for Redresse must bee vnto Him , that can set all right , The Prince in State , Gods Lieftenant for that purpose , To helpe them to right that suffer wrong : to which end and purpose hee beareth the Sword . Yet vnlesse I finde that fauour to bee Heard in my Request and humble Petition , I were as good , nay better , possesse my soule in Patience , sit still and indure whatsoeuer indignities rather after that ancient rule in Tacitus , Iniurias ferre & gratias agere , Say I thanke you Sir to Him that doth mee wrong , least stirring and storming to no purpose , if I cannot haue due redresse in time , I exasperate his oppressing humour the more , and so draw vpon my selfe needlessely greater grieuances , indignities , and vexations . So in Case of addresse vnto , and Intercession with God , when we stand in need of his helpe and assistance , to bee heard and deliuered in time of trouble , that our Suites bee not quashed ; our selues not disheartned , our Prayers may come into his presence , we must be aduised two wayes . First that we stand in no tearmes of disgrace , nor out of fauour with Him . Secondly , that wee want not meanes of Addresse and free accesse vnto him . It takes away the two ordinary impeachments of helpe and assistance . Which is in respect of Disaffection to our Persons : In respect of Disproportion to our state . Two ordinarie empeachments of Helpe , assistance , Both which hinder vs in the Court● of men . and redresse , in Course of Ciuill common cariages amongst men .

For Disproportion first in point of State , in regard of awfull Maiestie in the person and Condition of Princes aduanced 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , high vpon the steps and staires of Honour , the Petitioner doth and is to keepe Distance , in his Cariage and Decorum : not to presse or presume into his Princes presence , nor hand ouer head neere vnto his Person , without good warrant and incitement . For God , it may seeme semblably of like Condition , that we should not presume to come so neere him , And this disproportion should make vs also stand at distan●e with the Almightie . nor thrust our selues forward to importune him , or indeed at all to petitionate Him , who is the God of glorie , in state of Maiestie : who dwelleth in Light , that is in Excellencie vnapproachable : attended about his Throne in his Palace Royall , by Angels and Archangels , Thrones , and Dominations , those Mightie Executioners of his will , and most glorious Ministers in his managements abroad , who beeing , as they are , so transcendent vnto men , are admitted no farther into his designes and purposes reserued vnto Himselfe then only 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to haue a certaine glimmering of his glorie , to behold him , as it were , behind a trauerse , as light at a crany of a windore , or ●hink of a doore . But now , What is man ? who is The Son of man ? to come so neere vnto his Maker , or presume to approach his Presence Royall . Take him in his Naturals , Dust and ashes . Take him in his best state , no better then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in all his Royaltie , though on equall tearmes with Salomons , but a Clod of Clay gilded ouer , as well said Epictetus in Arrhianus . In point of good manners and ciuilitie , such an One may and must Fall off , stand at distance , and not dare come neere to petition God , in Person at the least , but only if need bee , by Seconds and Mediators . Suppose it hee may , to be spoken vnto him , which indeed is in an other case , and vnto persons of other Condition , Esay 65.5 . Stand aloofe : by thy selfe : Touch me not : come not neere mee , for I am Holier then Thou .

Nay more , so Hee must , stand off and at distance with the Almightie , And that by Gods owne direction insinuated here in the kind of Inuitation , Call . by very direction of God Himselfe insinuated here . His very warrant of addresse in this his kind Inuitation , telleth him tacitely so much , and assigneth him his station for his state , in letting him know his Condition , by the carriage and conduct of his Petition . Had hee not beene inuited to doe So , first , what is Hee that durst presume , and Call vpon this Mee , The God of Israel , the glorious God which ruleth in Sion ? Being inuited out of Grace and Goodnesse , hee is yet further limited and stinted to his Cariage , and quousque , which putteth Him in remembrance , who and what is Hee ; where , and vpon what termes is his station . For to Call is not peculiar vnto Euery man : nor indistinctly spoken To , or Of any man . We know it is the proper Act of those , that are à longè , farre off , and at distance when they Call . We vse not to Call vnto Him that is nigh , at hand , fast by vs , in the same roome . We only speake to him , and most what also summissa voce , To come and helpe vs , to lend vs the hand , to relieue our Necessities , and doe for vs in our wants that surcharge vs sore . Inferre then wee may from Gods intent in this direction , out of the nature and manner of his Inuitation : that God and Man stand at distance , are not in proximo or propinquo , but parted and disseuered asunder farre .

Which may be aggrauated from the degree of disproportion here . In regard of Disproportion of State , Nature and Condition : this hath beene touched vpon alreadie : No such distance inter duos , betwixt any two other , as God and his Creatures . The first and last of Things that are and haue reference each to other . For what Disproportion is elsewhere , is inter subalternos , only betwixt them , that haue some equalitie and combination , of Nature , Essence , Condition of kinde , which hold no Concurrence or Correspondence here . Vpon this Remoouall so farre in Nature , insueth a second , in site and place ; For locus and locatum in Natura rei , hold tearmes of Proportion necessarily . Now as farre as Heauen is from the Earth so farre apart is His Maiestie from vs . Wee dwell beneath on Earth , in houses of Clay , and haue our Habitation in the Dust : His aboade is on high , farre aboue our reach , wee cannot ascend thither if we would ; though it were granted that wee knew the way . Locally wee cannot , by approximation , as Bathsheba came to Salomon hauing a suite vnto Him , or as Hester vnto Ahashuerosh . Which shall hereafter bee qualified . One day wee shall haue that Honour and aduantage also : yet thanke him for it , or we neuer should : when this Corruptible hath put on Incorruption : and this Mortall hath put on Immortalitie . But that One day , is not Any day : is not euery day , is not this day , that is Mans day , while yet wee haue need and cause to Call vpon Me , in time of trouble . Then , in that day , no Trouble is , shall , or can be nigh , to make vs Call for reliefe , and redresse , when Peace and securitie haue met together : height of ioy and gladnesse kisse each other , embracing Perpetuitie for Companion for euer , in full fruition of Eternall blisse foreuermore . Interim , wee are not so cast off , so shut out , or kept off at distance , as hauing no Accesse to the Royall Maiestie of Heauen , nor meanes to come neere his Person , or into his Presence at all .

Much we haue and many , And is here in some mea●ure , specially by the ascent of Prayer ; implied in these words , Call vpon Me. very effectuall and sufficient : all 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in one word here , Call vpon me . That is in other tearmes , Pray vnto mee , Prayer is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , An Ascent , as they define it , and going vp vnto God , of those that are at distance , and remooued in suo vbi , of Naturall posture Locally : of Hereditarie incumbrances affectedly , of which also in loco , and anon . An ascent : but what manner ? in what fashion ? How ? yet wee are as farre to seeke as before , How shall I come before the Lord , or approach vnto my God ? This is chiefly the ascent of the minde . They adde , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vnto the forme● Description , an Ascent , not of Bodie , but of the minde to God : The Soule is interessed in this Action , that noble and actiue part of man . The Soule , a Subsistance of a large capacitie , not any Thing on Earth can fully giue satisfaction to it : No not all things , but God in Heauen and Earth ; so is it a Substance of very strange agilitie . Ou●nis spiritus ales est : It is a Spirit , as Angels , euiternall to the Image of God , that Eternall Spirit : and Spirits all of them , are of a quicke dispatch . An ancient Adage it is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so swift as thought doth imploy ; the dexteritie of this noble part of man , and strange agilitie , with which , in a moment of Time , in imperceiued time , it passeth with speed from East to West , Walketh the rounds of North and South . Nor height nor depht , no lenght or extent , no force of opposition , or resistance , can bound it in , or exclude it out . Anima est vbi amat , non vbi animat , nor only where it liketh there it liueth , but where it worketh , there it walketh , giuing Life and motion to the Bodie : is not yet bounded within the Bodie . The Soule of man liuing vpon Earth , ascendeth farre aboue all Heauens and heights : approacheth with quicke and easie speech and pace , vnto that Throne of Maiestie , and yet of Grace in Heauen , and there tendreth Petitions by Calling vpon Mee , our God that hath promised to heare when we call , and to deliuer vs in time of trouble . To him 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , by Deprecation of euill to come , and feared : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in Desire of whatsoeuer wee would haue , making our wishes and desires knowne vnto Him affectionatly : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in Intercession for our friends , that would be remembred by vs in our Prayer . Or lastly , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , giuing him thankes , that hath wrought and sent Redemption vnto his people , that hath not denied vs the requests of our lips , but Heard and deliuered vs in our trouble . It is not the bodies Act by locall motion : it is peculiar to the soule , by mentall exaltation , to approach , and come neere , to Call vpon God , as being onely seruiceable for that imployment .

And yet it must be granted , it can not be denied , but that 〈◊〉 is Incident to the whole man . More then Incident : very conuenient : yet farther , requisite : and so , in some sort at least , of necessitie urgents . Prayer is an Ascent of the minde : But so that the ascent of the voice may seeme also to be implied . so is ●oo● the voice , or else why here , Call vpon mee , sayth God , in time of trouble , seeing Call is an act of the outward man , performed by those organs of speech and motion ?

The dutious respects we owe vnto God : those Human● performances we doe for God : our seruice of Pietie performed vnto Him : our Actions any way interessed in him : all passages of Negotiation and Commerce interchanged with Him , are all of Condignitie or Co●gruitie . Such as cannot but be done by vs : or such , as being done , it is the better for vs . Such , as must needs bee done in this sort : such as being thus done , are the better done by vs euery way : or would not otherwise be so well done as so . With this difference , that the heart is required of absolute necessitie . The Heart is required , of Absolute necessitie . God hath chalenged it for his owne part and portion : My Sonne giue me thy Heart . No Pagan but thought it euer due vnto God . Therefore , Optimus animus pulcherrimus cultus , was assigned in the state of meere Nature without Grace , as most well pleasing vnto and accepted of God . If that be wanting in our deuotions , our best performings are but the sacrifices of fooles : wee offer , but the calues of hypocriticall lips . The voice of conuenience . The voice is not necessarie absolutely . Wee finde them sometime singled , and that cum effectu : Moses at the red Sea , cried amayne vnto God : yet Moses was not heard to speake one word . Hannah prayed feruently , with a troubled spirit ; yet her tongue went not at all : her lips scarcely moued ; yet both of them Called , and Cried too : both of them were heard , and that to purpose . But D●uid Called , and Cried , and Rored too : he lift vp his voice vnto an high streyne , and was heard and deliuered often times . Not then Call vpon mee , with thy voice , as if the heart were not sufficient : but because the voice is very conuenient , As in the time of trouble : but specially in time of publike Diuine Seruice . As it helpes . especially in the Time of trouble . Conuenient then : and expedient elsewhere , in publique Seruice and communion of the Church , met together for that purpose .

1. To make vp 2 part . Man is considered two manner wayes ; his Occasions to call , are so many wayes diuersified : as he is Himselfe , consisting alone : as hee is , a member of , and maketh vp a part in a societie . Time of trouble accrueth , and is incident vnto Him either way . When many call together , Call with the voice is of absolute Necessitie , in the vsuall and set Seruice of the Church . No man of sense or reason will question this , that the prayers of the Church must be vocall : as Dauid sang lustily , and with a Courage , when he praised God in the great congregation . Not of absolute necessitie for him that is alone , whose priuate wants and vrgences set him on worke : but yet of Conueniencie for him also , if I be not mistaken , many wayes .

The voice , 2. To raise vp the affections . set to call vpon a pitch and a loude streyne , serueth as a bellowes , naturally to kindle and inflame the feruor and eleuation of the heart to raise it vp the easier , and send vp the affections thereof sooner vnto Heauen . Marke this who so pleaseth ; the voice in such heauenly occupations as this , giueth life and motion vnto desires : vigour and actiuenesse vnto affections , Attention and intention more bent and reserued , and inforced vnto our words and purposed supplications . Their wits goe not a woolgathering , nor yet their thoughts on wandering , that bee thus throughly bent and busied in and vpon Call on me . The voice , not alone , or by itselfe : for the Heart must helpe and carie it vp . Nor yet the Heart so actiuely set on seruent deuotion , as when the voice doth enlarge it otherwise contracted , and most what shrunke vp . Aaron and Moses were imployed vnto Pharaoh : fratres animo , as well as vtero : to impart Gods will and directions vnto him . Heart and Voice , are our Interpreters and Intercessors vnto God , to implore his helpe , and impart our necessities vnto him . The Voice in Call , is as Aaron vnto Moses , spokes-man to Pharaoh : interpreter to God . The Heart to the Voice , as Moses vnto Aaron , to direct , aduise , and put the words to be spoken into the mouth . Both vnited in Combination , as Elias and his fiery Chariot , in which he ascended into Heauen . Nixus Cordis , that we call . Partus Oris , what we call . He that singleth either vpon singularitie , whether impairing in point of congruitie : or else parting points of condignitie , doubleth with God in Deuotion and Pietie , and depriueth himselfe of successe and succour in Necessitie . For he calleth not as he should , and therfore distasteth in his call : and can he looke for acceptance , with distast ? That which God hath ioyned , let not man presume to put asunder . God made both , and appointed both , Heart and Voice , vnto one purpose . And ( call ) being here read indeterminatly , maketh both ( that of the heart , and the other of the voice ) liable to performance . Call is not here , that wee can reade or finde , confined and limited vnto either , Heart or Voice : we haue it indefinitely : we reade it indeterminatly , call vpon mee , without adiection at all . So , or thus , a signe that both are liable to performance vpon occasion : and Hee that is directed and inuited to Call , left vnto his Libertie , or Necessitie , as his publike exigences , or priuate necessities shall imploy him . It is an infallible signe , I suppose , when no one nor other , heart or voyce is excluded , that Call vpon mee is a ioynt Act of either , but left vpon indifferencie , to Place and Person , Need and occasion , as Discretion and employment shall thinke behoouefull : yet Call , verbum oris , a word that importeth an externall Act , the performance of the tongue , not of the heart is vsed , I suppose , to insinuate , that for this time of Life , the seruice of God in our best endeauours , must bee conformed vnto what wee can doe , as mortall men , not what wee should doe , as perfect men , or shall performe hereafter , at Home in Heauen ; as Angels rather then mortall Men.

The voyce is not necessarie in some misconstructions ; because , forsooth , Yet some would be too spirituall , in excluding the voyce . Gods seruice is spirituall : and we must meerely become intellectuall . So sighs , and groanes , as many as you will ; and eyes gloyted vpward , God knoweth why , or whether ; but Call with the voyce , is too Carnall , an Angelicall conformitie would better fit vs . Nay , will , perhaps , hereafter ; will not now , or yet : we must doe as we may , and Call as we can ; which wanting not deuotion appertaining , will not want effect or acceptance that is expected . There neuer was but one amongst the sonnes of men , whose Actions are and euer were absolute rules of imitation ; Hee that saith in the Gospell , Learne of mee . It was a Call to purpose , a loud one indeed , in which hee commonly did commence his suits vnto his Father . Wee are sure it was then , when as the Apostle telleth vs , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 hee was heard to purpose by the God of his Life , and deliuered from the danger of that hee feared . Hee cryed and called as loud as might be , with a great voyce , wee read it in the story of his passion , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 strong Cries , in Saint Pauls relation of all that euer were , Hee least needed so to lift vp his voyce : a more summisse tone would haue serued his turne : yet this was his cariage in commencing his petitions : None euer Called so loud as Hee . I read not any mentall Prayers of his related , though he , if euer any , prayed continually . Hee did this for Precedent vnto vs , not so much for Practice in Himselfe ▪ who was not tied to so , or so ; but freely might follow his owne wayes , and counsels at pleasure .

But peraduenture it may seeme 〈◊〉 disparagement , They might better vrge a disaduantage in the vse of it , being easily tired , if it bee continued . at least some disaduantage to Call with the voyce , though Dauid vsed it often : because , as it is truely obserued in Naturall courses and Occurrences , Nihil violentum est diuturnum ▪ Nothing violent can long bee permanent : Those that in Calling vpon Mee , God at some distance in time of trouble , doe raise their Call vnto so high a pitch , in strong cries vnto God , and supplications , cannot long continue in the selfe same tone , nor yet goe through in their Deuotions , vnlesse that sometimes they breake off , and fetch breath ; and rally themselues now and then vpon a Pawse , to be heard the sooner , to be heard the better , to enforce the more effectually their Calling vpon God ; reenforced a new by a Fresh supply , as it were , of forces ; that , as Tertullian speaketh , Doe lay siege vnto Heauen . And what of that , if they so make some stops and breakes in their Meditations ? Much more , I suppose , But that will rather prooue an aduantage , if they often breake it off by shorter ejaculations . it will be for their aduantage euery way . A line Drawne out in length , both in Art and Nature , is the weakest of all Dimensions or Figures whatsoeuer . The longer Drawne out , so much more the weaker , where each part sustaineth the peise alone , hath no helpe nor supportation from another part . A line redoubled is the stronger ; the more redoubled and ioynted , so much more the stronger . Wee see it veryfied in an Arch , and rounded building , where each stone buckleth into another . As in Art and in Nature , so likewise in Grace . Our hearts are like vnto Moses hands ; heauie of themselues : their affections extended , as a line Drawne out ; weake and feeble in extension ; the longer extent , the more feeble , especially vpward , against Course and kind . For Ascent is not Naturall vnto heauie Substances : Violent motion must so enforce them , which cannot long hold out in statu quo . Affections in this Case are all in all , and they thus considered are as a Bow , which standing long bent prooueth but a slug , striketh the marke very seldome : rather indeed sendeth not the Arrow home . So farre from drawing bloud , or making a deepe wound , that hardly stringit , it doth raze the skinne . Interchanged res● with motion , is so Naturall and Necessary , that nothing can subsist without it long . Perpetuall Action and Motion doth empaire the state of that , which is continually mooued , and in moouing weareth , though sens●ms●nt se●s● , not so soone perceiued by the sense .

For so ou● prayers are truely made Cal● , as they are in my text . In this regard I cannot but much commend those Prayers which are indeed , and truely Calls . Vbi multi dantur ad Deum reditus . Many breakes , and returnes vnto God are vsuall ; letting downe and stretching vp the strings of our affections , from and vnto their fit and iust proportion and measure . And that was ( such Cassian ) the meaning of the Monkish deuotion in Egypt . Ins●i●ut . L●b. 2. c. 10. Antiquitie named these , Iaculatorias Orationes , Prayers shot forth with some bent of Affection ; the vse and profit of them is thus expressed by Cassian , speaking of the Monkes in Egypt in his time , who much & often vsed them in their rigid and most exact Deuotions . Vt frequentiùs Dominum deprecantes jugiter eidem coharere possimus : & vt insidiantis Diab●lijacula , quae in●ligere nobis tum praecipuè insistit , cùm oramus , succinctà vitemus breuitate . No small profit , to preuaile against the Deuills assaults , to put by his temptations , and suggestions that incumber our affections in their performings . No better meanes to put them by , then by such jaculatory Prayers as these , which preuent him in his attempts , and are sooner dispatched then he would thinke them begun . Say Cauilling Catharists what they can to the Contrarie , it is a Manifest , that the Prayers of the Church , in our Common Liturgies , authorised and in vse , are very well thewed and composed for the nonce , to fit the dispositions and affections of men . Short and effectuall , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , none so potent or likely to preuaile with God . Collect● , they are called ; And it is the meaning both of the name , and vse of our Church-Collects . Epist●l● 1●1 . and such they are ; Collected and shut vp into a narrow roome and scantling : and so Constipatae , are more effectuall and forceable , As vis vnita fortior , such are they combined . Saint Augustine seconding that relation of Cassian , giueth the same reason of that Deuout Practice . Ne illa vigilanter erecta qua oranti plarimum necessaria est , per productiores mor●s euanescat atque hebetetur intentio . For long continuall beating in , and plodding on the same , Dulleth the edge and Liuelinesse of the Agent . Therefore Mother Rebekah , out of her Discretion and experience , knew how to Dresse a Dish for Father Isaac , that so a blessing may Descend vpon the head of Iacob her sonne .

There are that glory much in very long Prayers ; That loose themselues often , and their Desires in their Deuotions ; and may very well goe blow the seeke for them ; that Can not tell why they came to talke with God . Say they know not in Discourse with God ; and hauing long babbled , and battalogised with God , immannerly enough , and to no purpose at all , after all this much adoe , and his so long Patience to heare them talke idlely , may well bee questioned with , what would the good man say ? Absit ab Oratione multa locutio , sed no● absit multa precatio . Mistake not my meaning , as if I meant to condemne or preiudice long and feruent Deuotion . Yet doe I not c●nd●mne 〈◊〉 praying , but much 〈◊〉 nor many prayers but many words . In Prayer , Pray much and feruently , a Gods name ; but take heed of talking and ta●ling much , Sic si feruens perseueret intentio . The longer men continue in familiar Discourse with God , the more Honor , so redoundeth Doubtlesse to the Discourser . The more and more many waies they make their Cases known ; the more instant and vrgent men are with God , the better at all times welcome to Him , and more likely to preuaile . As Intention is no way to bee blunted , if so bee the edge bee both sharpe and Durable ; and will not be broken nor taken off : So if it bee keene , and yet soone blunted , giue new quicknesse , by whetting it once , and often . Many Words , but no many Prayers , are frequent and vsuall in our Ordinary Talkers of Deuotion . To speake and talke much , is with wordes superfluous and more then needeth , to prise the obtaining of that which is not very behoouefull , whereas were men well and rightly Disposed , some sighs and salt teares , might dispatch all . Plus gemitibus , indeed , quàm sermonibus agitur : plus fletu quàm affatu . Multum precamur , in how few words soeuer , cum ad Eum quem precamur pià cordis excitatione pulsamus . To excite and stirre vp , to hold on , and hold out the well settled and resolued Deuotion of the Heart , nothing more potent nor preuailing , then voce clamare , to Lift vp the voyce , and Call vpon God : Call and spare not , For ( Call ) 〈◊〉 an extent , being a word of degrees . Chrysost. as long as may be ; as loud as can be . Call hath an extent ; it is a word of Degrees : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 written not with many Letters , yet of great employment in Preuayling Deuotions euery way .

With this Condition , if yet farther we Call and Cease not : but Call and Call ; Call and Cry aloud so long , Donec misereatur nostri : at last let him not goe without a blessing . Call is but once , I grant it , in the Text. But yet Call and no more is not sufficient . Nor is it intended wee should Call but once . But Call and Call , againe and againe , vntill hee attend vnto our Prayer . I inforce not the Direction , beyond purpose , I suppose , and intent . The words themselues giue it . If not Call ; which is single : yet Call vpon ; which employeth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Once and againe : Call , and Call : often , instantly , now , Neither is it Call in a single word , but Call vpon , which implies it to be instant . then anon : that is , Call vpon God ; giue him no rest ; as Himselfe saith vnto Moses in an importune suit , Let him not alone : nor Let him goe . God loueth and approoueth importune Suitors : Such as will not soone , nor bee easily put off ; such as will take no Deniall . With men in Ciuilitie it is held good manners , Si ter pulsanti nemo respondet , abit● . Knocke thrice , if none answere , then bee gone . In Course of Life and Friendship it is good Fauour , to Doe a good turne once and haue Done for euer . And therefore such wise men as well vnderstand the world , are carefull to husband vp , and not to spend fauour . But with God it is otherwise : No good inducing argument with him , I come not often : I am not like to trouble thee againe in haste . Nay , nothing more ha●sh or Distasting vnto Him , then , I neuer did till now trouble thee with suit , nor am I likely to doe it againe in haste . But Call vpon mee , toties quoties , when , and as often as thou wilt : And at all times instant . The more often the better welcome . Be instant , vrgent , giue not ouer . Pray continually , at any time . Offer vp Pure hands , and an honest Heart in any place : Vpon any Occasion : For any thing . The Day of trouble , in the Text , Specially in the day of trouble . is not Exclusiue , So , as if not at all but then . Not Definitiue , So , as if onely then . It is indeed the fittest , but not the onely time . And not the fittest neither for it Selfe ; or in regard of any Disposition in God : but onely in regard of Mens Dispositions , In regard of our better dispositions then . then rather fit , then at other times . Otherwise any time is alike vnto God ; for Mens Priuate Prayers and Deuotions . In the Day of trouble , Men are of all other times most Sensible , most apprehensiue of want of Comfort , of Reliefe and Deliuerance ; and so most willing and well disposed to Call vpon mee ; whom otherwise , at other times , they are well enough contented to let alone , as if God were Disquieted , with Petitioners and Suits . It is a Course obserued in Israel of old , In their affliction they did seeke the Lord : whom still in Prosperitie they forsooke when they were full . Seldome Doe wee say , God helpe mee ; or , What shall I doe ; but when wee are pinched with some Extremitie . God knoweth our humor and Disposition , that the best and fittest time to deale with vs , is , The day of trouble .

Therefore hee leaueth Goades in the Israelites sides : therefore 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : a stub in the Flesh , with Saint Paul : therefore coarctat , hee narroweth & streighteth vs at home . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , saith Saint Basil , not delighting to trample on vs . It is Childrens play , to build houses of Reeds and Bulrushes , and streight to Demolish them againe . God will no such pastime as this . But , as I haue seene , a Nurse Suffer her Foster child to take a knocke , with a Fall , that hee may become more wary , and not wander at randome as otherwise hee would , but be the more fond of her , for want of whose readie assistance hee fell : So I know , that God , to haue our Company the oftner ; to enioy it the longer ; to secure vs vnto himselfe the better ; suffereth the Day of trouble to ouertake vs , for our good : that so drawing neere him , wee may bee safe without Scruple of Disproportion otherwise : which may happily put vs off farre enough from Him . Besides thee , which we haue said of disproportion : there is a s●cond impeachment in regard of disaffection .

In respect of Disaffection yet farther remooued from Him . For who can looke for Helpe at his Enemies hands ? For good Respect there , and for gracious acceptance , where hee hath beene euer at oddes , and ad oppositum ? For aduancement or Reward from his Prince ; who in Iustice might take his head for a Traytor ? It is most Certaine , God and Man , in effect Prince and People , Subiects and Souereigne haue Anciently beene at oddes vpon many great Differences Diuersly ; vpon high termes of Disunion sundry wayes . And therefore no Cause for Him , to looke to bee heard at his Call in time of trouble . Adam , at first , instantly vpon the breach betwixt God and Himselfe , did Discouer this affection vpon guilt of Conscience , in Himselfe , Which may well fright vs from comming to call vpon God : it frighted Adam from comming to Gods call . and His ; Gen. 3.10 . I heard thy voyce in the Garden , Calling Adam , where art thou , and was afraid . Afraid to Come at Gods call : much more afraid to come and to Call on God ; in time of trouble and affliction .

True indeed , and good Reason for it . Therefore Euery one that Calleth is not heard . Nor is Call on mee , directed indifferently : but vpon supposall of status alteratus , But , indeed we haue had a better call since Adams : and so wee may also the better call to him , and hop● to be heard . Men becomming new men ; by Submissiue Reconciliation . The Person is first accepted , then the Petition granted : as the gift elsewhere is gratefull for the Giuers sake : God had respect to Abel and to his gift . God heard Abraham , for hee was his friend : deliuered Iacob , who was his Seruant . Here , not singuli generum , are directed to Call ; euery man , euery where , at any time ; nor genera singulorum , at all aduentures : but only such as be remembred , Vers. 15. That heare the Lord first , Israel Vers . 7. The people whom hee chose . For there are some concerning whom he hath resolued and set downe , They shall call vpon mee , the very cariage of these , and tearmes heere vsed ; But with a double distinction . but I will not heare : they shall seeke mee early , but shall not find mee , Prou. 1.28 . So then Distingue perso●●● , put difference to the Persons , and Scripture seeming contrary , will bee well accorded . This Intercourse is not left at large : the Negotiation is not betwixt Any and any , this man or that : Call , and I will Heare , passeth betwixt two , Of the persons implyed in the words , Thee and Me. Mee and Thee , God and Gods chosen . The Redeemer of Israel , and the People whom hee hath bought : his Beloued Ones , because his Faithfull Seruants . Faithfull , trusting in him , assured of Him : and Faithfull also to Him , that deceiue Him not Fides is dictorum factorumque , they say , and truly , constantia atque veritas , and these keepe touch with God , and stipulation per painte , and punctually , I may say Couenant . For in all and euery Gods promises of Grace , there is an Indenture drawne betwixt God and man , for performing of Couenants on either part . The Conditions are reduced to these parts , For there are Conditions drawne betweene them both . Walke thou before me and be vpright : So , I will be thy God , and thou shalt bee my people . These euer expressed or supposed , must bee supposed Performed before we come to Call vpon Him , that is able to Deliuer vs in time of trouble . Wee haue the same instanced in this present passage . For the Promise and Direction , is vpon Condition : the Illatiue , And , in this present pas●sage ; the promise runnes vpon a condition . And call , is in effect thus , And so : or , then call , and not before . So there lyeth a● Incumbrance vpon this Promise of Assistance and Inuitation . I will heare , there is a Condition to keepe touch with God , which must be formerly and first performed : Th●● Verse being ●●ferred vpon the former Verse . Pay thy vowes , in the Verse preceding this , then come and Call in the day of trouble . Pay first the old Debt , then goe on with a new score . No reason to Heare him when hee Calleth vpon God , that is , challengeth Performance of Gods Promise for assistance , that hath not Himselfe kept touch with God first . Not without good reason . For can Promise-breakers expect Performance ? or Hee challenge an other that is false himselfe ? Ioshua had a Promise at his first entrance into State , As I was with Moses , so will I be with Thee . A Charter sealed from the Almightie , No man shall stand before thee all the dayes of thy life . And yet not many moneths after the ensealing , Israel fell before the men of Ai. Sensit hic peritus Dux , that all was not as it should be , expostulating with God , he found the Cause was breach of Promise on Israels part , The People had not payed their vowes to the most High . Vpon Inquisition had it appeared by Confession , and Euidentia facti , that A●han had commited Sacrilege , in Interuerting the Consecrated thing , and Prophaning that which was Religious . Therefore Israel fell before their Enemies , as beeing guiltie of a roaring Sinne , Theft and Roberie against God .

Rar● antecedentem scelestam , deseruit pede poena claudo . Marke who list , and then make this obseruation , If Sinne march before , then will assured Vengeance be in the Rere . If Iudgement ensue , it is most certaine , Iniquitie hath beene found in Iacob . Had Zimri peace that slue his Master ? Achan escaped not with his Sacrilege . The Sinne of Achan is a Ranger in the World . Many Hunters haue Taken and diuide the spoyles of the Sanctuarie , neuer determined for such Prophane hands , nor appointed for such vngodly vses , as they are conuerted and serue vnto : The true Cause alone , if well aduised on , why so many mightie Nimrods in the World miscarie , they and their Posteritie , at least in the third Generation , marke it who list , being swept away and gone-out of Gods houses by them deuoured : out of his Inheritance , which they and theirs had dismantled and laid wast . Goe therefore , Solue vota , pay what thou owest , discharge thy Promise , make peace with a good Conscience , bee at one with God , this Inuitation is warrant enough , to Call , and be heard in time of trouble . Call then and Challenge Him if hee doe not Heare . It is made a Booke Case , and fitteth well the purpose , Malach. 3.10 . Prooue mee now if I open not the windores of Heauen , and powre you out a blessing without measure . As great an Obligation as can be entred into , I will powre you out a blessing without measure . See the Condition , on their parts to bee performed : without which no such blessing at Gods hand . Bring all my Tithes into my Store-house , that there may bee meate in my house , saith God there vnto them . Israel , hauing robbed him , in his owne reserued portion , were iustly plagued for this their Sacrilege , and not heard , nor deliuered , vpon their Call , in time of trouble ; vpon amendment , certainly assured , that A blessing without measure , should bee giuen them : that God would set open the windores of Heauen vnto them .

And this is euer God his manner of dealing with vs . Vpon condu●●● , but very easie . God dealeth as it were vpon trucke and exchange . He selleth indeed his Fauours , as in bargaine and sale ; though he sell them at an easie rate . Not for Money , nor yet money-worth , that is disclaymed by Proclamation , Esay 55.1 . Come buy without Money , or money-worth . Not at such rate that men be thereby vndone : as if a man should s●ll his Patrimonie , to buy a Bishopricke , or Office , and dye soone after : or some other Preferment at Steeple-faire . Or take vp Sinne from the Deuill vpon Bond , the Interest whereof will at length eate them out ; God meaneth no such Vow or Promise as this . No such Peace Offering that may vndoe the Sonne of thy Bodie , for the Sinne of thy Soule . It is easie enough Payment , by thy Selfe conditioned , and therefore iustly by Him exacted , Walke before me , and bee vpright . Then Call and Spare not : Call and Doubt not , but veniens veniet : hee that shall come will come and not tarie long , if in Calling thou Double not : that is , Single Him that which alone will not Content Him , Call with the mouth , not with the heart . Giue him voice enough : but sparingly or nothing of the Inward man . Inuocare , is , intus vocare . The Mouth is but Midwife to the Heart ; our Inward parts then should bee employed , that so we may bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , attend that only which we doe : not , as the Prouerbe was sometime , Castra in Hispanijs aedificantes . Diuine actions , require the whole man . God will not be serued by halfes ; nor will he part stakes with any other in that which is his peculium and peculiar .

Here then as Personas , so distingue tempora . As Euery man is not alike with God , Of the times . nor in the same Degree of Regard with God : so also , in ●jsdem , distingue tempora . The same men are not euer considered in the same state , nor yet accompanied with the same attendants , and therefore haue not euer the same successe . For we must not euer expect the like successe , though we bee interessed in the promise . There are different affections , and varying Dispositions in the the same men , to Call , at sundry times . Nor doe they come alike prepared euer . So now , as anon : or as they did at other times . Nor yet so qualified as they should be . The best are not alway and euermore heard , and deliuered when they call . No not , when they Call out and Cry , with the whole heart : nor though they Cry aloud , and lift vp their voyce , and Roare for disquietnesse of their soules , as Dauid hath obserued in himselfe . And it is most certaine , it cannot be denied , Practice and Experience in common course of Life , doth auerre and make it good , that euen in the best ; those that Pay their vowes , and keepe touch with God : that are of Israel according to Adoption and Grace ; the Secret , the Hidden , the Reserued ones of God : that Call and Cry aloud ; that double not with God : that Pray with the Heart and Vnderstanding also : Are not euer heard , when they Call . I adde , because wee must bee instant in Calling , and , in Calling vpon , continue calling ; that is , be Feruent and instant in Prayer , those that Call and Cease not , Expect and doubt not , yet are not euer answered in their earnest desires , nor haue a fiat vt petitur , assigned to them : They Call , and Call , and yet are not heard . Paul auoucheth his owne Case and Example to this purpose . Thrice hee besought the Lord , and was not heard , the Angell of Satan continued buffeting of him , the Stub in the flesh was not remooued from Him . Of Esaus Calling and Crying , calling often and with teares , the Case is plaine and auouched by Saint Paul vnto the Hebrewes , and many more instances might be giuen . But for Esau and his Compeeres the Case is plaine , the answere expedite , Hee was not of the Tribe of Populus meus . A Stranger from God , and the Word of his Grace . Hee had then no part nor portion in that Promise , I will heare : Hee was not intended in that Inuitation , Call vpon me . Paul was a man of an other making indeed , cast in the mould that God would haue him . And yet 2. Cor. 12.9 . for all that , he Called thrice and was not heard : where then is the Truth of his Promise in Performance , Call vpon me and I will heare , seeing Paul the partie interessed , was , if euer any , of the stocke and kindred of Populus meus , interessed in the Promise for Performance , I will heare and deliuer : and also called , if euer any did , with due obseruation of Conditions ?

Now that God may be cleered , when he is questioned for performance of his Promise : Since God may heare vs two wayes . and our hopes secured , when they rest affianced on his Word , I will heare and deliuer : thus it is ; A man is heard at Gods hand , two manner wayes . First , ad voluntatem , In his very desire according to his will : which is not euer ad salutem , 1. Ad voluntatem . for and to his good . Or , hee is heard ad salutem , 2. Ad salutem . for his good and his auaile , as he should and would intend , if he vnderstood himselfe aright : though not ad voluntatem which was irregular , enormious and damageable . Saint Paul was heard , as he desired . Not indeed according to the errour of his opinion , And our opinion may often misdeeme that to bee good , which is not . by which hee misdeemed it good for him , to be free from that buffeting of the Deuill : but heard as hee should bee , and as hee would desire , according vnto his better iudgment , in that which was more auaileable and for his greater good . I put the Case : a man of Seruice in Church or Common-wealth is a Suitor to his Prince of whom he well deserueth , hauing spent in his Seruice much time and meanes , for some Pension of one hundred Crownes per annum : and vpon some Reason of Profit , or ground of State , is denied his Suite in that Particular : but so , that in lieu thereof he hath an Office of Honour , of a thousand pound a yeare passed ouer to him instantly . Or say that a Petitioner for a poore Parsonage , missing that , as formerly disposed of , were rewarded with a Deanerie of good Corps and value : no man will or can say otherwise , but , that both they sped well , and were heard to purpose , according to desire , though denied in their prime intended Suite , according to the letter . For by their Petition , intentione primâ , their purpose and proiect was this , to doe themselues good , by procuring meanes and maintenance : to which end , vpon a second intention , they pitched and resolued on this or that particular ; which in their Opinion , lyable to misconceit and errour , was a Suite of Consequence to doe them good ; though in Issue and Conclusion they missed of it : and if they had obtayned it , as they desired , their Case and state had beene much worse then it fell out to be otherwise . Paul was not heard ad voluntatem , as hee would and wished : because hee wished what was not then so expedient for Him . But yet ad salutem , hee was heard abundantly , My Grace , said God vnto him , is sufficient for thee ; this Grace was imparted to him plentifully . The Deuill himselfe on the other side , was heard ad voluntatem , when he sued to become Iobs Tormentor . To goe into and destroy the heard of Hogs . When they are permitted to possesse , afflict , seduce men vnto Sinne , they haue then their desire at their owne wils . But better it were for them not to bee heard so at all . It maketh for their greater condemnation , to aggrauate the weight of their eternall punishment , and fill vp the measure of their Impietie . They are not , nor shall they euer be heard ad salutem . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For God hath sworne vnto them in his wrath , they shall neuer more returne vnto his rest . Their Iudgement is sealed , whatsoeuer some Mercifull ones doe dreame and doate , their Damnation sure : The sentence passed against them is Irreuersable , not to be trauersed by Writ of Errour : So that all things worke together vnto their Confusion : euen the grant of their desires , by God .

For Gods Children and Beloued , At the least it is not so good as we apprehend it . it is a ruled Case in Nature , and holdeth true in Grace , No man euer did , no man euer can or will , desire his owne proper hurt and damage intentionally . That which He knoweth and is assured to bee euill , that no man euer did or can desire as euill .

For , malum sub ratione mali , nor is , nor can bee die peculiar Obiect adaequatum of our Wils and Desires , but malum only , sub ratione boni . The Euill which wee would not , that indeed wee doe , that wee desire and procure also to our selues : wee Call , and Cry , and sue , and seeke , an● Labor often earnestly with God , to procure it to our selues : but out of Opinion and Misconceit , that it will be for our good and great aduantage : Bonum vtile or delectabile ; In point of pleasure or of Profit . Now the Case standeth thus betwixt God and his Children , Hee loueth them dearely with tender Compassion , and with Mercie euerlasting hee doth embrace them ; and therefore of Himselfe , and from Himselfe , hee wisheth , willeth , worketh , and procureth , that which is Good , and euer Good , and onely Good for them . Man is much and often his owne Foe , in Willing and Procuring his owne hurt and losse , which hee doth not directly as intending so , but out of Ignorance and vnwittingly , as taking things to bee what they are not : mistaking much the Formes and Fashions , Euents , and Consequents , the Causes and Occasions of things Contingent , yet in their Causes , not in Act , and so , Vnseene , Vnknowne , and Vndiscerned what they will bee . The Will is Chiefe Monarch of the Soule , The Wil being not rightly informed by the vnderstanding . ordering and disposing authentickly . The Vnderstanding is Chiefe Counsellour of State , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , The Kings Eye . Much is done amisse , because commanded ill ; yet the King is blamelesse , beeing ill aduised : Informe him aright , all shall bee well : for hee disposeth , as Hee is informed , by him that most what mistaketh the marke , calling Bad good , and good bad : suggesting , as conuenient , which is no way competent . Now God farre otherwise doth dispose : Actually , intuitiuely , simul , semel , he beholdeth and discerneth all things as they are . For past or to come there is nothing with Him , who seeth from euerlasting to euerlasting : knowing what will bee before it is . To purpose , when wee Call , hee knoweth and is assured , that were our desires granted vs , as wee wish , it would sort vnto our hurt and vtter vndoing . And thereupon his Wisdome out of his Loue denieth vs the request of our lips , the earnest and affected desires of our hearts : though with strong Cries and Supplications , with feruent affection , yea with teares : as knowing it better to be denied , then by hauing them granted to be vndone . Not any man , I suppose , that hath had to doe with God , but either hath or might haue made this reall obseruation vnto Himselfe in his owne experience . I appeale in this particular to their owne Priuitie , And therefore God may be aid 〈◊〉 to heare vs , when hee seem●s to denie vs . who or can or will remember it , whether God in not granting them many their desires , hath not in that very particular done them good : and made manifest his Care and Loue enlarged vnto them ? For they find , or may so finde it vpon after-experience , that had they obtayned it , they had beene vndone : being denied it , they were made men . So that wee may bee Heard very well vnto a purpose , when wee are not heard , nor deliuered as wee would bee . And God is iust of his Promise , true of his word , when hee doth not heare vs at Call , in time of trouble : but putteth vs off , putteth vs by , or plainly denieth vs our request .

This giues a further rule to our Call . When we call , not to prescribe the time or meanes , or subiect of our desires Therefore Call but prescribe not , So or So : Now or then , as the men of Bethulia did , by such a day if hee saue vs not , wee will render vp the Citie vnto the Enemie . Leaue God vnto his Libertie , for When , How , and What to doe . The Time , the Meanes , the Subiect of our desires , which shall rest in his best disposition for our aduantage , Which is often crossed for many Reasons . many wayes : whether prorogued , precipitated , or denied . In Particular , there are Reasons to mooue and perswade vs yet farther in the point .

As for Humiliation of our Hearts ; For our Humiliation . apt enough to swell vp bigge with selfe-conceit of our owne worth , vpon opinion of some , the least Grace and Fauour with God : expressed in Saint Pauls case 2. Cor. 12.7 . Least he might be puffed vp , he was beaten by that Angell of Satan .

Secondly , For triall of their Faith , and fidelitie to their Master , For triall of our Faith . that it may appeare the Deuill was a Liar , when he affirmed , Iob serued not God for naught , that he did it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hee had need of him ; and to leaue him , hee could not tell where to bee better . It was a signe of Fidelitie indeed , Though thou kill mee , yet will I loue thee .

Thirdly , For Augmentation of their Loue , much more indeared by hauing need of God . For Augmentation of our loue . I will loue thee dearely , said he in the Psalme , because hee had beene his , Refuge in time of his trouble .

Fourthly , For Declaration of his worth : which as Gold in the Fire , For declaration of our worth . so is manifested by tribulation ; and the more tribulation , the greater manifest thereof . Ille latebat & fallebat . Iob was not discouered , till hee was put vnto it . Hee was reputed as other men , till he was tried and found Faithfull .

Fiftly , For Exaltation of their reward ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : For exaltation of our reward . The more we endure for Gods sake in Earth , the greater shal be our reward in Heauen . Call then and murmur not , Call , despaire not , Call and expostulate not with God , for being not heard instantly , or not at all , when thou Callest for Deliuerance , according vnto Expectation ; A greater suit is granted , when a smaller is denied , which also would turne vnto apparant losse ; and so what breach of Promise , I will heare and deliuer , in these Cases ?

So that it is no preiudice , to be de●erred , or denied . These must bee remembred , least that , as it happeneth very often , Wee being not heard , nor yet Deliuered vpon request and Call , according to Expectation : but differred a while , adiourned , put off vnto a farther day , bee soone discouraged , disheartned , and finally put by that assured assistance , which wee looked for , and otherwise might haue from our God . Men soone grow weary of wel-doing : more soone in actions of Pietie ; most , when they faile though neuer so little of Expectation : which as it is not regular , nor yet well directed ; so it holdeth not stanch any long time ; a little disaster will quite dismay it ; a small Crosse or rub in the way quash it . In truth , For , God euer hath his reasons of loue why he doth it . Deus vt iterum venias pau●a dat : vt frequenter adeas difficulter dat . God doth not lauish out his Graces , though aboundantly hee could doe it all at once , but giueth indeed sparingly , and with a streightned hand . It is not for niggardise that hee doth so : It is to haue thee come the oftner . He heareth , giueth , deliuereth not vpon the first motion , at present suit ; it is not for any sinister intent ; it is to haue thee Come and Call the oftner . The oftner , the better welcome . Vnto Himselfe without Mediation : thou by thy selfe without Deputation . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 it is a Personall Intercourse , Call , I will heare , betwixt Mee , and Thee . So wee cannot pretend disproportion . It is not to be thought there is disaffection .

Had wee not beene inuited to Call first : Therefore , whether we consider the manner of his hearing , or of his inuiting vs to call , we may put off all thought of disaffection . vpon Conscience of Desert , wee peraduenture might haue Cast in some scruple of Disaffection . It is more then Manifest , hee hath put vp all , passed by all , pardoned all , that so kindly inuiteth to Call vpon mee . Wee find not any Suit in the Premises commenced ; no Petition exhibited for accesse or Fauour . The first thing wee heare of independantly , is Call vpon mee . Thus Grace preuenteth with the blessing of Goodnesse , those that in Necessitie had need of God . Had wee not beene preuented by Inuitation , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 in his owne Person ; wee might haue put in excuse for our selues thus , By what warrant is this Inuitation ? Wee must not presume ; wee dare not come at him vpon so great termes of disproportion . But being inuited so , By Himselfe , though there bee no proportion betwixt Him and vs ; the Maiestie of Heauen , and Mortall men on Earth : But , we must not put off our duty of calling , it is no manners to refuse the offer and gift of a Superior . No pretence of Disproportion can bee auaileable , if that God doe condescend to such termes of Proportion . If God doe condescend to talke with Abraham , Abraham may be bold , though Dust and ashes , to discourse with God , and importune him for the Sodomites , as wee know hee did . The more immediate Mandate , The rather ; being his own immediate mandate , that we should call . the greater respect due vnto it from the Subiect . The more immediate Promise , euer the surer hope from him that hath euer bin his words master . The word of a Prince , is a Royall engagement , and graund assurance . Noblemen were wont not to breake their words hauing spoken vpon their Honors . Which , as it challengeth a greater respect And in Verbo Sacerdotis hath beene held a surer tye , then a Corporall oath is for a Priest : And shall wee admit any quarrell against God , as if hee meant not truely , that we should haue accesse vnto him , and assistance from Him ? A Princes Inuitation by Himselfe in Person , giueth greater assurance then by message . This Call vpon mee , is as immediate as may bee : Nothing possibly can bee more . God with his owne mouth , in his owne person speaketh and inuiteth , not by delegation , by another mans . And wee are inuited to Come as hee calleth , not by delegation , but our selues : immediate Inuitation , for immediate accesse . No one steppeth in betwixt Mee and Thee in this negotiation . No Interloper in this Intercourse and Commerce . No Intercessor , to bee heard and deliuered in time of trouble . Either of Himselfe , without warrant , comming in motu proprio , vnrequested : nor : by appointment in Subordination from God , by intreatie or atonement from our Selues , or others .

Thus effectually to deliuer , So , it cannot but produce a surer hope , and greater confidence . and that at a pinch , and but vpon Call , in Exigence of trouble , should aduance our indeauours , euen extremum potentiae , by all meanes possible to bee thankfull . Si totum me debeo pro me facto , quantum rependam pro me redempto ? A maine part of thankefull Dutie vnto God , and recognition of his Loue , is to beleeue his Promise , and build vpon his word ; to Follow his Directions , Come at his Inuitation ; not to stand , as in doubtfull suspence what to doe , or what Course to run in time of Trouble : Seeing hee that is Able , doth declare himselfe willing to Heare and Deliuer , at our Call , by Immediate warrant from himselfe , without helpe or mediation , or Suit of others .

And yet the Church of Rome , The practise of the Church of Rome ▪ farre otherwise . hauing lost her first Loue , and long since made forfeiture of her Honor , hath prostituted her Deuotions , euen 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : As a common strumpet , giueth entertainment to any Commoner promiscuously ; So hath shee also diuided her Call , in her Deuotions , to euery one that passeth by : Each Saint hath a part , as it happeneth , as men are disposed , or occasions are presented . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; as the Foxe in the Fable , Shee hath many addresses vnto many Mediators , For Accesse and Audience : For Dispatch and Riddance at Gods hands , to bee heard and deliuered in time of Trouble , few or none immediate To , or By himselfe .

Many Mediators of Intercession onely : For I say not , For though shee be wise enough in confessing God the donor , & principall author . I cannot , I must not say that the Church of Rome denieth Call vpon mee , to hold in good Obedience , or in Diuinitie . For Certainely Shee addresseth Te ad me , Man vnto God , vnto none but vnto God , to be heard and deliuered by him alone , out of tribulation in the Day of trouble : as Author and Originall of all helpe and Grace , deduced and deriued meerely , wholly , and totally from Him . Freely professing , willingly acknowledging , as truely beleeuing as any doe or can doe whatsoeuer , that , Euery good gift and perfect giuing is , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the worke of God , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 sent of God . It is true , and must not bee denied , The Romane Church in her Doctrine ( for , and concerning Practise ; it is otherwise ) doth not impaire , or impeach the Sure , firme , and fastest Meditation , the Peculiar worke of Christ Iesus , or appoint Propitiators in his place , who alone , as all sufficient in himselfe payed the price of our Redemption , and made vp without assistants or Concurrents , the alone , absolute atonement , by his Reall and perfect Satisfaction , betwixt God and Man . Willingly they acknowledge and professe together with vs , that , None but Christ : none but Christ . In Earth they haue none beside Him , and in Heauen not any to bee compared to him : who onely through the Dignitie of his Person : and alsufficiencie of his Desert , meritoriously obtaineth what wee can desire , or what wee Call for at Gods hands . It is false which is imputed , if yet it bee imputed , and layd vnto , their Charge , That they haue many Gods , or many Lords . That they Call vpon Saints , as vpon God to helpe them : That they mention not Christ , but Saints in their Deuotions . They doe not deny Call vpon mee . In their Doctrine and Opinion , Inuocation is peculiar vnto God alone , as a part of that Eternall Morall dutie , which man euer doth owe vnto God , his Maker and Protector in all his wayes , Inuocation I meane , in a proper Sense : it is Aduocation and Intercession onely which they giue vnto Saints ; which Act is sometime called Inuocation in a large extent , as it passeth and is directed from man to them . Their helpe , with Dauid , onely standeth in the Name of the Lord , who hath made both Heauen and Earth . For Gratiam & gloriam , say they , dabit Dominus , It is the Lord alone that Giueth , because it is in his power to giue , both Grace and Glorie . Therefore the great Dictator of that side layeth downe this Proposition , as resolued vpon on all hands by his Partie , It is not lawfull to desire or request of the Saints , that as Actors of Diuine good things and Benefits , they grant vnto vs , glory , or grace , or any other meanes vnto eternall happinesse . For why : Our helpe standeth in the Name of the Lord , that hath made Heauen and Earth . And he addeth , That the Saints are no immediate Intercessors for vs with God , but whatsoeuer they obtaine for vs at Gods hands , that they doe obtaine by and through Christ . And it is for ought I know , the voyce of euery Romanist , Non ipsi Sancti , sed eorum Deus , Dominus nobis est . So it must not be imputed , which is not deserued , were they worse then they are . It is a Sinne , they say , to belye the Deuill : a Shame to charge men with what they are not guiltie of , to make the breach bigger , Being in this , as shee is in other opinions , somewhat 〈◊〉 us . already too wide . Concerning Saints departed , thus they teach . First , that according vnto Scripture and Faith of the Church , They liue and subsist in their better part . That , their Life is hidden in Christ with God ; whose Presence they now enioy in Glory in Heauen . That there , they rest from their Labours , and magnifie his Mercies incessantly , who hath sent such Redemption vnto their soules ; That there they forget not their brethren vpon Earth , but remember the Church Militant vnto God . And sure , if there bee a Communion of Saints , and a Fellowship betwixt those two maine parts of the Tolu● , the Church of the Redeemed by the blood of Iesus , Triumphant in the Heauens , and yet Militant heere in Earth : Orant pro Nobis saltem in genere ; those that enioy the Fruit of their Labors now with God , are not Forgetfull of their brethren behinde , and not consummate in the Flesh . I insist not on this , it is not now questioned by the Opposites .

But farther , they teach that the Saints in Heauen , make also Particular Intercession for vs : that is , Some of them , for some of vs here , which is , in my Opinion , though no point of Faith for which I would burne , yet true and certaine in all Credibilitie . But how it is limitted or to bee enlarged : how and in what sort and sense it is true , may appeare more particularly vpon the Processe , Thirdly , that Saints and Holy Angels in Heauen , may bee ioyntly or seuerally prayed vnto : Many by many , by one , or some : One , by any one , or by many , which accordingly their People put in frequent practise , Chaunting it euery where , Ora pro me . The Councell of Trent , that Oracle of the Romane Faith and Religion , resolueth thus . Sanctos Orationes suas pro hominibus De● offerre . Bonum esse atque vtile , suppliciter eos Inuocare . Ad eorum Orationes , opem , auxiliumque confugere . In some Generalities , as their manner is , leauing way and libertie for disputes abroad .

And in this point not better to be answered , then ; by taking away the ambiguitie of the word Inuocation . For better Euidence in this point , the Question controuersed , inter partes , may be limitted , or rather explained thus . Inuocation , as was touched , is a word of ambiguous signification ; as most words are , because there are more things then words , Subsistances , then names to Call them by , It is taken specially for to Call vpon mee , as him vpon whom we absolutely relye : at least vltimatè in that kind . It is also vsed for to Call vnto , as to Helpes , Assistants , or Aduocates in suite , when in Time of Trouble and Necessitie , wee haue Cause to come and Call on God , directing our Prayers euer , primâ intentione vnto him . When therefore wee talke of Inuocation of Saints , and dispute concerning praying vnto Saints , wee must vnderstand Inuocation so , as directed vnto them onely , as Assistants , and Mediators onely of Intercession ; and therefore not to be Inuocated , or Called vpon in the same sense and termes as God Almightie is , the Author and Donor of euery good giuing : nor to bee implored as Christ Iesus is , the onely Mediator of Redemption , and Meritorious Aduocate of Intercession . Therefore , hauing occasion and Cause , to Call vpon mee in time of trouble , they imploy not Te ad Me , Man vnto God immediately , but doe it secundariè , and by Mediators . This is not vnlawfull in it selfe . It is no exclusiue , Call in thy owne Person . For warrant and practise is for the Contrary . Orate pro Inuicem : is a Precept . The Church prayed for Peter , there is practise . But such Mediators they vse in this Case , as are supposed not to bee , apti nati : not accommodated to the purpose ; not fitted or disposed to bee employed in , and therefore incapable of that office of Intercession . Who if they were such as they take them to bee , and it could appeare plainely that such indeed they were , might very well bee imployed as Intercessors , none sooner , none better , or with more aduantage then they euery way : and happy such as could intreate their aduocation , in regard of that great Grace & Fauor they stand in with God : as also that affection they beare vnto their brethren , & apprehension they haue more then holy Angels haue , or can haue , through their owne experience , of Tribulation .

The Church of Rome is thus perswaded of them ; therefore they vse in all exegincies , and times of trouble , in all their addresses vnto God for helpe and succour , to vse the assistance of holy Saints and Angels : to haue recourse into them , the blessed Virgin , Saint Peter , Saint Paul , that so they may finde fauour and acceptance at Gods hands , to be heard and deliuered the sooner in time of trouble . Herein they are perswaded that they doe well and wisely , and with great aduantage to obtaine their desires . I am not yet so perswaded of this their vse and practise : I see no reason yet to subscribe vnto their doctrine ; I may hereafter peraduenture be of their minde , to say Sancta Maria ora pro me , though it be vnlikely , and I doe not thinke I shall , If any Romane Catholike , or all the Romane Catholikes liuing , can euict by any one conuincing demonstration : or bring but one irresistable argument , from Reason , Nature , or from Grace , Can proue it by Scripture so expounded by the Church , for fiue hundred yeares after Christ , So dogmatically concluded , by cases so ruled , by rules so giuen in general Counsels : or in Prouinciall or Nationall confirmed by General ; By generall consent and practice , so expressed and at full , in the vse and euidence of that auncient Church to the determination and end of the Councell at Chalcedon , about fiue hundred and fiftie yeares after Christ : Finally , to giue a little more aduantage , by any one Father of credit amongst themselues , that dogmatically resolueth it , vt certum & d● fide , and I will subscribe , and say together with them , Orate pro me . Hee or they that dare and can , vndertake this taske , performe it , and I subscribe . Till then , my Resolution is and must be , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as I haue receiued so will I hold : Yet she is more ca●telous , then Wise , to goe about for Assistants , when shee may goe a neerer way without them . It is not to bee taught as a point of Faith , nor to bee vrged vpon any with obseruation : nor to be tendred with Anathema to the gainsayer , nor to bee practized necessarily . That it is builded vp out of meere coniectures , and vncertainties ; what they can doe , and how farre preuayle : and therefore it is folly for mee or any man ordinarily to haue recourse vnto the Angels of God : or vnto Saints at rest with God , ordinarily and in point of Pietie and Deuotion : to vse them as Aduocates and Mediators in my suites , to Call vnto them to Call vpon God : when my Selfe that am then interessed principally , may commence my owne Suites , commend my owne Case , follow my owne businesse , and effect my owne purposes personally , beeing graciously inuited to doe it my selfe , and immediately directed vnto God by himselfe , in Call vpon me in time of trouble .

I say it is Folly , and so it is , in extremitie ; Her opinion in this and many other points is not so farre from Atheisme as her practice is neere vnto folly . to Call vnto them in such sort as is accustomed , in common sense of Reasonable men . For lesse adoe by much would serue , then is made , in imploring this Saint and that : a surer and a more warranted course might be taken , then to goe about , when wee may goe the neerer way . Wee are not certaine at the best , what they doe or can doe for vs in these cases , that are so employed and implored by vs . I will not , I dare not be so harsh and rigorous , as to condemne them of Impietie for Calling vnto them . For though more bee done vnto them , then is , fit or conuenient : and more bestowed on them , at least by Consequence , then can consort with the Condition of their Creation : yet nothing is detracted there from the Creator , in giuing them that they are not capeable of .

It is no generall rule of necessarie Consequence , They take from God , who ouerlauishly giue any thing vnto men . Thus it standeth in Case betwixt vs and them , if we take them in the lumpe , at whole sale in their Doctrine , as it were . I cannot say it doth so , for their Practice , as if that also were so gently to bee handled . In this , as in many other ; if not in all points of Practique Pietie , Practice and Precept , their Doctrine in Schooles , and Discipline abroad , Coelo & Solo disparantur , are so much at oddes in so many particulars , as if the one had not to doe with the other : or they that did the one , were not the men interessed in the other . In their Doctrine of defrauding the People of the Cup in the holy Sacrament of the Altar , they plead it , and conclude it in Schooles and Councels , that the Cup must not bee giuen vnto the Laitie : the People are to receiue but in one kind . And yet their Practice is now , of what standing I know not , to giue them also of the Wine , as I haue beene assured by some Roman Catholikes I can name , my Neighbours , and it hath beene auerred by their Priests .

Mary marke their iuggling , and obserue them conuicted of foule Forgerie : the Laitie drinke not of the Chalice , though they drinke of the Wine of Consecration , powred out of the Chalice into a Glasse , which peraduenture altereth , in their opinion , the Propertie of the bloud of Christ , and euacuateth the power , and efficacie of the words of Consecration . Whether this bee so or not , I cannot sweare , I haue nothing but hearesay : that I haue , and can name my Authors .

In their Doctrine of Images they disclayme Idolatry indeed : and take the imputation with great offence , and as the most part of them doe teach in their Bookes the vse of Images , I see no cause to stile them Idolaters . But sure the Peoples practice is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 next doore vnto it : very like it , if not the same . A man , one of their owne for his Profession , Catholike Moderator . a man of good account for his Experience , confesseth , that the vulgar , the greater part of men who vnderstand no Greeke , nor can tell what Latria or Dulia meaneth , comprehend not any other Mediocritie , then to Adore right downe , or else not at all goe to it bonâ fide ; and with as much deuotion adore our blessed Ladie and other Saints now with God , as they doe God Himselfe But be this , as it is , in their common Custome , it is grand Impietie , so confessed on both hands , to inuocate any , beside Me. For it is a part of that Diuine Honour , whereof God hath said , No man shall haue it , because it is not Communicable to any Creature with or beside God . It is as good Blasphemie as can bee committed in point of Practice , to Call vpon , still I say vpon , not vnto , any other at all beside Me. For to Call vpon any , emplyeth them to be the Authours Originall , and Donors Principall ( so much is intended by that Phrase ) of the good implored at their hands . But to Call vnto , that is to vse in their Suits , vnto God , in their Necessities and Exigences , beside God , Assistants , Aduocates , and Mediators , Proctors vnto God , Procurers from God of good things vnto themselues ; though it bee not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 flat impietie , yet is it 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 plaine downe right Folly . To beate the Bush while they may catch the Bird ; To goe about , when they may walke the neere way home , to vse much adoe , when little helpe will serue , to imply Mediators when they need none : to pray and intreate the Porter for entrance , when they may goe freely vnto the Closet of the great King : to bribe a Seruant to deliuer a Petition , when the Lord doth Call for it out of their owne hands . A plaine Case , he may well bee begged , that will runne such an idle and wandring course .

They suggest to perswade it from vse and Congruitie thus . In the Fashion and Practice of the World say they , Poore men that are Petitioners to Prince , or Potentate , to Iudge or Iustice , must be faine , and are inforced , that they may procure Fauour and haue good successe , to make meanes , and so commonly to make Friends , and by their mediation come to speed , that otherwise might long enough attend , and it may be , returned without effect .

They vrge , that Kings haue their Masters of Requests : their Cabinet Counsellors , Minions and Fauourites in State , who preferre at their pleasure whom they please , and keepe backe whomsoeuer they doe not affect ; that they vse to bestow Graces , and Offices by Recommendation . Great men most commonly attend not Dispatches in Person themselues , but turne Suiters ouer vnto others : bid them come againe to morrow , I haue no leisure to day , goe to my Man , giue him your Petition , and at conuenient leisure I shall peruse it . Answeres immediate are not ordinary ▪ with Persons that keepe state , and stand vpon tearmes of Distance and Disproportion . And what so great Distance or Disproportion say they , any where as here , in Case of intercourse betwixt God and Man ; where is no common medium to make a mutuall Commerce betwixt them ? Thus they doe plead plausibly , and make simple people beleeue much . As if it were and needes must bee so with God as Man .

And , it seemes , they are willing to be foole themselues , i● vs they cannot But in this Faire shew and cariage of comparison , our great Masters aut fallunt aut falluntur ; wittingly and willingly they would deceiue : or ignorantly they erre not remembring the Nature and Practice of God : not considering his intimations of his will and good pleasure to vs reuealed . First , the Practice they produce , vpon which they insist to perswade , is not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 so generally true , For , how weak is that , which they falsly vrge as a perpetual practise with earthly Princes ? such a receiued ruled Case , as hath not suffered at all , contradiction . There are and haue beene alway such as vse it not . And no maruell , it is no Naturall course of kind , that so it should passe for an vniuersall Practice . It came in by abuse from the State and Pride of the Persian Monarchs , from the loose licentiousnesse and Socordia of those Easterne Nations very Imperious in their Grandees , and men of authoritie , most seruile and abiect in their Peasants ; With the Romans , an ingenious and Free People : with the Grecians , a ciuill and well disposed Nation , it was long ere this Seruile Course came into pactice . Augustus Caesar , vpon occasion was requested of an old Souldier of his to affoord him his Presence at hearing of a Cause he had ; the Prince replyed , he would depute one for him : which the Souldier , not vsed to such tearmes of putting off , or if you will , of Distance , answered him stoutly , But I sent no Substitute , O Emperour , to fight in thy quarrell at Philippi : I went my Selfe , and aduentured my life in Person , and am I put ouer to a Proxie ? which Augustus acknowledging , with some bloud in his face , went himselfe as he requested , and did not assigne a Substitute to doe it . In the Graecian Storie it was as stoutly replyed by one to Philip of Macedon , if I remember aright , who making this answere to a Petition , I haue no leisure , receiued as free a returne from the Petitioner , Noli ergo regnare , What dost thou with the Kingdome , or with a Crowne , if thou haue no leisure to dispatch and heare suites ? And not to goe beyond the surroundry of foure Seas , wee haue a Precedent amongst our owne Kings , that Princes giue not all : nor yet dispatch euery thing by mediation . He amongst our Kings , Qui coniunxit Rosas , that both knew and practised rights and points of State , as well as euer did any since his time , gaue his Offices of Church and Common-wealth so freely and absolutely of himselfe , that Hee only tooke and deserued thankes if hee gaue them : Himselfe had the Benefit and Profit if hee sold them . Mediators were not much in request in his time , not much employed , nor many things done by them as it seemeth . So this practice is not so certaine .

But to admit it an Eternall truth and vniuersall Rule , Which if it were granted perpetuall with them , would be no Argument to proue it so with God . That intercession must bee made , by Abettors vnto great men and Mediators , that Princes neuer giue dispatch but by deputation , as is pretended in the Persuasion : yet might they not hereupon inferre by any good sequell or consequence , that thereupon , it hath beene and must bee so with God . For what are we vnto Him , to inuert the Argument ? What is our Modell vnto his Making ? The●e is and hath beene euer , as Himselfe hath auowed it , a mayne disproportion and dissimilitude betwixt vias meas , and vias vestras : the wayes of God , and the by-walkes of man . My wayes , saith the Prophet , are of an other fashion . If then by so good warrant there bee auouched such dissimilitude , There being so great disproportion betwixt them . and disproportion betwixt God in his courses of communication , and man in his cariage to his Neighbour : wee had need of as good a warrant to conclude this particular , Men doe so , therefore it is Gods course : or else , Tu quis es , What art thou O man , and where is thy Commission , that thus vpon bare Presumption and no more , doest amussitare , square and rule out , the perfect and absolute proceedings of God in Grace , by the Leaden and Lesbian Rule of humane vse and practice ? let him that can , shew me forth his Warrant to doe so : if none can , as I know none can , I dare not so slight nor vnder value this Direction and Inuitation of his owne , Therefore it is better to follow Gods direction vpon good ground in the Verse : then theirs vpon none at all . Call vpon me . It is true , to disable Me , the Partie inuited , is but Dust and Ashes : No more was Hee that was called Gods friend , and admitted to familiar conuersation with Him . I confesse with Gedeon , My Father is a poore man in Manasses , and I the least in my Fathers house . But what of that , if God do● not disregard me ? if hee be pleased to haue it , as is premised ? Awfull regard presumeth not boldly , nor hand ouer-head into the presence of a Prince , neere vnto the person of Him that is Verendâ maiestate conspicuus : But if a Prince bee pleased to condescend so farre , it is scarce good manners then to keepe aloofe . Vnlesse Adam did well to hide himselfe , when God called for him , Adam , where art thou ? Sure it had beene no wisedome nor discretion in Hester , to say no more , when Ahashuerus held out the Scepter to inuite her approach , to haue kept off , fallen backe , or interceded with Aman to speake for her vnto the King . If this be not folly , tell me what is ? For I know not .

It is said , men may , and I know that oftentimes many doe , For , as there may be reasons giuen , why it should be so with men : so this Verse may furnish vs with as good reasons , why it should not bee so with God . waite long and attend for dispatches in Courts of Honour and Iustice , that haue not good Meanes and Mediators for accesse , and diligent Sollicitours for dispatch . For State , for Conueniencie , for Necessitie , for Multiplicitie of businesse , immediate accesse , immediate audience , immediate and quicke dispatch is not ordinarie with men . But God , as hee is the Authour of our good : So is hee the Promotor thereof Himselfe . Call vpon mee , without mediation : I will heare thee my selfe , without Delegation . The Action is personall : the Inuitation proper . No Substitute , Aduocate , or Atturney . No Suite commenced from hand to hand , which often miscarieth in the cariage . I am sure no Petitioner will apply himselfe to meanes , who can haue immediate dispatch : will addresse himselfe to Seruants though of chiefest ranke , as those of the Bed-chamber to the King : or to the chiefe Fauourite in the State , that toties quoties , may haue free and personall accesse , without any Sir Oliuer to impeach him : Who can haue cheerefull countenance at approach , without any Secondary to assist him : Gracious audience in petitioning , willing acceptance vpon audience , and without long tarrying or much adoe , good , expected , and quicke dispatch . Hee that may doe so , will not ; if he vnderstand himselfe aright , or his owne strength , relye vpon promise or performance of another , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , vnlesse hee haue a Priuiledge to weare a Fooles Coate , but in person prosecute his owne Cause .

There is much in this Inuitation Call vpon me , to giue satisfaction vnto this Obiection , It contaynes enough to satisfie all our desires , and all their obiections in this case the most in vse , and most frequent in the mouthes of the multitude . Wee doe not obserue any pause in the passage betwixt this Call , and I will heare . As if time would bee required to answere Petition , as in course of Law vpon Bill of Complaint ; and a space , of Necessitie or of Course , passe on betwixt Performance and Supplication ; as if it could not be answered the same day . No Verse interlopeth twixt Heare , and Deliuer , as if The King would aduise first what to doe : Whether Heare when we Call : or giue no Audience , or Heare , giue Audience , but not Deliuer , denie dispatch . In exigent need , when we are at a pinch , at a stand , to aduise and deliberate what to doe , is a kind of denyall . Bis dat , qui citò dat , in extremities . God keepe me from Scepticke in my necessitie . Now in Gods inuitation and Direction in the point , there is only Actus continuatus as it were , Call , heare , deliuer , with a breath . And no maruell . Such is his course , his custome such . Nescit tarda molimina Spiritus sancti gratia . When he commeth to deliuer in time of trouble , hee commeth on lustily , not gradu testitudineo . Can a man wish better successe , or quicker successe then Abrahams Seruant had , who went immediately to the God of his Master Abraham ? Goe seeke , enquire , returne and come , it will appeare true vpon Search made , that neuer was hee ashamed , because neuer deceiued that tooke this course . Hee need not incumber himselfe with Atturneyes : Bee at great cost and charges to fee Pleaders at Barre : or entertayne Sollicitors with expence : but Himselfe in Person may become his owne spokesman that dealeth with God , his owne Mediator and Intercessor for Christs sake . What soeuer is pretended in the course , vse , and practice of the World : It is folly and madnesse in some degree at least , to entertaine as they vse , Necessitie with Delayes , or dally out Extremities , when we may be heard by God without more adoe instantly , by our selues .

Secondly , they would perswade to say Sancta Maria ora pro me , and inuocation to bee vsed vnto Holy Saints with God , because Angels haue beene prayed to as Mediators , and that without taxe , rather with approbation . So that the perswasion supposeth as true , and taketh it as giuen , that whatsoeuer accrueth vnto the Angels , is competible also with the Spirits and Soules of the blessed Dead ; of the Liuing with God : of the Righteous . And then proueth it factum by euidence of Text , that Angels haue beene called to in Deuotions . And first concerning that supposition , the equall indowments of men and Angels .

In this Question of Inuocation , it is to bee obserued , that our great Masters in Israel , In this Question of Inuo●ation , one main Fall●●re is , that they ioyne Saints and Angels indifferently together . of the Church of Rome , suggest vnto vs and put in the plea , Saints and holy Angels , indifferently , in distinguishedly , as if they were two words of one signification : as if there were no difference in the choice , to addresse our selues vnto one or other indeterminately ; at any time , in any place , vpon any exigent or occasion , both whom , and when , and as wee please , as particular deuotion , or some more priuate respects and affection shall lead vs .

So we find it ruled with negligence enough by the Master of Controuersies to our hands . Sancti siue Angeli , piè & vtiliter inuocantur : the very decision of the Oracle of Trent . So they dispute without any scruple : as if there were no difference for the employment , nor any distinction of condition for the engagement : Not obseruing how much they differ both in employment , and condition . when as Saints and Angels differ many waies : and Angels are set vp 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ▪ in regard of men . For the Excellencie of their nature , Nobilitie of kinde , Extent of their ●●dowments . Vse of their Employments , and worth of their Atchieuements , many waies , aboue and beyond the Sonnes of men . They are called Angels , from their Employments : and are Agentes in rebus , vpon Earth vnto God , vpon course in kind ordinarily , and extraordinarily . Angels Liegiers , Angels Keepers , of men and Countreyes ; Angels Messengers vpon occasions . Saints in Paradise are nor so nor so , sent , employed at any hand . They haue their Habitacula , their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 Mansions : not Free among the dead , to goe and walke at libertie as they will : to performe Seruice in attendance vpon Gods Employments , except peraduenture vpon peculiar Dispensation , some one or other , at some one time or other , Vnlesse vpon peculiar dispensation of employment . hath beene dispensed with for egresse è receptaculis , and for some extraordinarie Dispensation : as Moses and Elias , at the Interuiew with Christ vpon Mount Tabor . One in a Million , in long tract of Time happily hath had such vnusuall Employment : whereas Angels are messengers ordinarily , by prime institution in their kind . So that the Case being different betwixt these two people : Holy Saints and Angels , not in one allotment ; were it commanded , were it lawfull or expedient to Call vnto Holy Angels in time of trouble ; yet can it not ex aequo bee inferred , we may therefore Call vnto Holy Saints as well , and in semblable sort .

To prooue the supposition of Equalitie betwixt them euery way , Which spoyles that conclusion out of Matth. 22. it is alleaged out of Matth. 22.30 . that by euidence of our Sauiour Himselfe , the Saints are 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , equall with Angels euery way : goe hand in hand with those blessed Spirits , so many waies Transcendent in Nature and Employment .

Thus it is alleaged by the Master of Controuersies as well as by others to this purpose and intent , Or rather the collusion out of that Text. but falsly and with much Collusion . For the Text is no way to the purpose of any such equalitie of Saints and Angels .

First , there is a meere disagreement in time . Our quaere , is onely de praesenti . What , In regard of the disagreement in time . and in what state the Saints are at present , not yet reunited vnto their Bodies : It is not questioned , it is not to purpose , what they shall bee hereafter in Time to come . It is questioned what Power they are of for Intercession now , when wee doe , or may stand in need of Assistance , to bee heard and deliuered in time of Trouble . What is it to our purpose what they shall bee hereafter , when wee stand in no need of their Assistance any more , nor of Recommendation vnto the Maiestie of Heauen ? We with them , and they with vs alike interessed in God , and both alike partakers of that blessed state , which shall neuer bee changed , not so much as accosted , with any time of trouble . The Power they are of ; the Profit to be had by them , is for time of this Life , and Gods dispensation with vs in this present world , wherein our necessities are often very great and vrgent , and sore extreamities are vpon vs many waies . It must needs bee then an idle discourse in them : an halting and a lame Conclusion , nothing to purpose , not able to perswade , that disputeth and proceedeth from what Shall bee hereafter in Time to come , after Iudgement , to that which is now in vse , and being in the olde World . Many things are now , which shall not bee then , when as all things shall become new ; and what is now shall not be then , when we , and all shall be changed . So that , First the place of Scripture is not to purpose in regard of Time .

Secondly , lesse in respect of Subiect : It is another thing of a different Nature , In respect o● Sub●ect our Sauiour himselfe 〈…〉 that 〈◊〉 to the present 〈◊〉 . which there particularly is insisted on . Our Sauiour in that passage doth precisely and punctually direct his speech vnto the Sadduces , those Iewish Atheists and Epicures , that denied the Resurrection of the dead ; and to prooue their impious assertion , Put a Case , as they imagined , of absurd Inference , if there were granted a Resurrection : A woman there was that had seuen husbands in her life : to whom shall shee appertaine at the Resurrection ? It is answered , To none of them as wife . For in that other world , is no more man or wife , marrying , or giuing in marriage , but Men are like Angels . Then like Angels . At the Resurrection , the Saints of God become 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , then , and not before , equall to the Angels . So precisely hee speaketh of the Time to come : these perswaders alleadge it for the present . Secondly , not then alike , per omnia , point per point , no not in the Kingdome of God in glorie . Our Sauiour nor said , nor yet meant so . Amongst men shall continue Male and Female , in distinction of Sexe as now ; Angels nor are nor shall bee Male and Female . Men shall neuer become Spirits , as Angels are : nor Angels haue flesh , and bones , and be clothed with their skin , as men shall be . For then there is no Resurrection of the dead , if Bodies raised vp out of their dusts to Life , be not the same againe which sometime they were . Different Natures , Men and Angels , must necessarily haue distinct Naturall Proprieties . Accidents doe follow the condition of those Substances in which they are . In qualities and Indowments of kind , as well as in formall being and Subsisting ; Men and Angels shall differ , and bee distinguished after the Resurrection . Therefore not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 like Angels in euery point ; and if not so , how in this of Indowment , vnlesse peculiar warrant can bee shewed ? To conclude , our Sauiour limitted that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Equalitie of Holy Saints , after the Resurrection vnto Angels , vnto one thing only , and no more ; one particular alone and no moe : that whereof the present quaere then was , marrying after the Resurrection , or remaining man and wife . Euen in this particular not being married , not giuing , or being giuen in marriage ; Saints shall bee then , but are not as yet equall vnto the holy Angels . So , the issue is : So that the equalit●● is many wayes nothing to the purpose . They are like in one thing onely , not in all : that One thing is not , hath nothing to doe with , this thing . Nor are they yet alike in that one thing they shall bee hereafter , are not now . And we must be answered for now , not then : for the Present , not the Future , or to come . So the Euidence is 〈◊〉 and speaketh not to purpose , neither for Particular , nor for Time .

Thou 〈◊〉 was of 〈◊〉 purpose falsified by the Controuersor . Faultie , and falsified also voluntarily . The Controuersor for readeth the Text thus , Sunt aequales Angelis , are equall at present vnto the Angels : whereas the Gospel hath it , as our Sauiour spake and meant it , de futuro , of the Time to come : Erunt aequales Angelis , are the words of the Text , Shall be equall vnto the Angels . That he meant to corrupt it , appeareth by his Glosse , A● appeareth b● his glosse there . a notorious lye , Imprimis nihil deest eorum quae Angeli habent , quantum ad hoc munus . They want not now any thing at all , wherewith Angels be endowed , as much as appertaineth to this employment . An assertion most false in it selfe , and directly crossed , by a contrary assertion of Himselfe , and his Complices in this very point of Inuocation . For in point of Information , wherby Saints departed come to vnderstand our Needs and Necessities , our Cases , and States , when wee implore their helpe and assistance vnto God , this is one , that the Angels , Agentes in rebus , in the Church on earth with men , as ordinary Agents , or emploied occasionally , doe informe and giue knowledge thereof vnto Saints . Which himselfe elsewhere contradicts . Which supposall of such Information from them , be it true or false , vaine and imaginary , or reall and indeed , I dispute , I question , I care not , doth of necessitie inforce a disproportion and , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of the Saints vnto the Angels ; against the resolution , of our great Master here , ( As his fashion is . ) whose custome is to serue himselfe for the present purpose , to put by the thing that presseth him , hee careth not how : and so that he may serue his turne then , and rid his fingers of present trouble , respecteth not what hee hath said elsewhere , or what will ensue vpon his assertions , then and there . In common sense and Reason hee that informeth anothers ignorance , and giueth him to vnderstand what he vnderstood not , is superiour , at least in point of Information ; and so , Granting the Angels superiour , in point of information . Aliquid eis deest eorum quae Angeli habent , quantum ad hoc munus , precisely : the flat Contradictory to his Position . Saints and Angels are not equall , no not in this : and therefore also the Question is ill stated by Him and his , touching Inuocation of Saints or Angels ; as if there were no termes of inequalitie or disproportion betwixt them at all .

We may easily 〈◊〉 why it 〈…〉 wi●h him , both to contradict himselfe , I wonder not at this Contradiction : For mendaces are seldome memores : Forgers and Faulsers cannot carry things so cleanly , but at sometime or other they will discouer and betray themselues . For as in Truth , one part is Comportable and Compliable with another , so falshood euer doth dash against it selfe , hewing hoofe against hoofe . They agree not long with and amongst themselues , that conspire together against God and Truth . But let them be lumped or consorted as they would haue it , as they please , let holy Saints and Angels , euen now at present , before the Resurrection , goe hand in hand together , passibus aequis , in all points : or if yet they will let Saints in some sort bee Superiour vnto Angels , to further the Case of Inuocation : That is , both being apt and disposed , and fitted to pittie and compassionate , to helpe and relieue our necessitie and needs : let Saints haue this Prerogatiue , to commiserate sooner , and assist readier , and helpe effectualler , as they plead for them , because they are more neere vnto , and conioyned with vs then Angels are , as being members together with vs of Christ , flesh of his flesh , and bone of our bone . As hauing felt themselues , being yet in the Flesh , those miseries of Mankind , whereof Angels had neuer experimentall knowledge or triall : let it be granted that therupon in these regards , they are more likely to put to for our assistance , extremum potentiae , the vtmost extent of their best indeauours , according to that well knowne and approoued saying in the Poet , Non ignara mali miseris succurrere disco . Let it be added , that what they intreate for , they shall obtaine it at Gods hands ; God will not deny them , whom hee heareth alway when they Pray vnto Him : yet are all these but faire Pretexts and pretences , and Circumductions ; nothing materiall to the point in Question : And to ●oaue from the Question . only brought in to make a shew , to dazle the gazer with imaginations : and so to lead men off from that which indeed is to be prooued , As appeares in this particular . to pitch vpon things that are not questioned , as will appeare in particular more precisely . The Question is , Whether Saints may bee called vnto , to Call vpon God for vs in distresse . The reason is ; It is doubted whether they can heare when wee call . The maine to bee proued will bee this , They can , and that ordinarily , at any time , in any place , any men or man . Hic Rhodus , hic saltus : these are to bee made good , and then wee yeeld . Prooue them , and I will say as well as any Romanist , Sancta Maria , ora pro me . But because they doe wander whom wee must follow ;

Therfore , since we can 〈◊〉 follow them the right way into the Question : let vs hu●t them out of their by paths . And first for the practise of praying to Saints .

In Iacobs practise they can nei●h●r find Inuocation ,

haue after them in their by-paths whatsoeuer : and first vnto Praying to Angels , in Practice , and vpon Record , as is supposed in holy Writ , for practice long agoe , before the Law .

Iacob lying on his death-bed praied to an Angell , Gen. 48.16 . Angelus qui eruit me de cunctis malis , benedicat pueris istis . Hic apertè S. Iacob Angelum inuocauit : saith Bellarmine in the point ; The Angel that deliuered mee out of all euill and aduersitie , blesse these children . Here it is apparent that holy Iacob inuocateth the Angel . Not so apparent , I wis Sir , as is supposed , either for Inuocating in generall , or for Inuocating an Angel by holy Iacob . Not for Inuocation , we find no Ora pro istis , heere by way of addresse , or directed Supplication : not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , so much as any termes of Compellation , Thou Angel which hast kept mee Preserue them ; or assist them with thy helpe , furtherance , and praiers : which should haue beene if it were to purpose : For saith the Master of Controuersies himselfe , Non debere peti à Sanctis , nisi vt orent pro Nobis , All wee can , or must aske of Saints is , That they would pray for vs . And therefore it is professed and protested by the Perswaders themselues , that they neuer goe beyond degree of Compellation thus , Sancta Maria , ora pro Nobis : and herein they say right ; they should not goe farther , most what they doe not : at least their meaning is no more but so . Secondly , this passage of Iacob is not to the Angel , it is concerning him : Nor Inuocation of an Angel . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 meerely by way of wish and desire , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 by way of Supplication . Iacob relateth what the Angel had done for him all his life time : and wisheth he would doe as much for them his graund children , Ephraim , and Manasses , the sonnes of Ioseph . A wish or desire , that such , or such a good thing , and happie successe may bee , is no Praier vnto the thing that it would be so . Vnlesse wee imagine , and as well wee may , that Balaam praied vnto his owne Soule , when in the Selfe same forme that Iacob wisheth here , hee desired , Moriatur anima mea morte justorum . Let my Soule die the death of the righteous , and let my latter end be like vnto his . Or Dauid praied vnto the Angel , when hee saith , Let the Angel of the Lord persecute them . Hee praied that it might be : not to him to doe it . No more doth Iacob in this place .

Thirdly , had it beene an expresse and direct praier , Let it be read , Vnlesse of such an Angel , which onely may be prayed vnto . Thou Angel which hast deliuered mee , blesse them . Yet our Perswaders are neuer the neerer , but out of the way . For this Angel might be praied vnto , and yet not euerie Angel so : nor yet Saints inuocated accordingly . For howsoeuer Saints are vnto other Angels , this Angel is paramount to them , infinitis parasangis : and transcendent vnto all Angels beside . He is Angelus foederis , that Angell of the Couenant in the Prophet . Not Angelus Domini , an Angell of the Lord : but Angelus Dominus , The Lord that Angel , Christ Iesus himselfe ; no Created Angel , that Iacob meant and intended here ; who indeed had preserued him in all his wayes , and kept him safe in his going out , and returning home , from Esau his Brother ; Laban his Vncle ; in his owne Countrie , and in a forraine Land . That found him in Bethel , and spake with him there : Ose 12.4 . That Angel mentioned formerly , Chap. 31. Vers. 11. and explained , Vers. 13. I am the God of Bethel , where thou anointedst the pillar , and where thou vowedst a vow vnto mee . Thus the Fathers of old vnderstood that Scripture , As the Fathers also of old vnderstood it . from the first Infancie of the Church : not of any Created Angel , Custos ; but of Christ , God , Creator of Men and Angels . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Hee , Page 71. an Angel , God and Lord , saith Iustine the Martyr , disputing with Trypho the Iew , appeared vnto Abraham in humane shape ; was seene of Iacob in the Forme and Figure of man . Wrestling with him , as is recorded , in his returne from Mesopotamia , at such time as hee met with his brother Esau , and at his going vp to Bethel . And more precisely comprehending all other apparitions , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , it was hee , the same , and no other , who was seene of , and appeared vnto the Patriarkes of old . God , and also Lord of all , howsoeuer called Angel there . Thus that holy Writer , Vir Apostolicorum temporum , who pricked fast on vpon the Apostles time , if hee did not know some of them in the Flesh . Athanasius hath a discourse vnto the purpose , and therein is peremptorie , that Hee was Christ . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 &c. Orat. 4. 〈…〉 . 260. If so bee that the Patriarke Iacob , in blessing his Nephewes , Ephraim , and Manasses , said thus , The Angel that deliuered mee out of all aduersitie , and nourished mee from my youth vp , vntill this day , blesse these children : yet he doth not there couple or compose any one Created and Naturall Angel with God , Him that was Creator of all Angels . Nor doth he forget and by passe him , of whom he had beene nourished from his youth vp vntill then , that is God , and desire a blessing for his Nephewes from an Angel . But in phrasing it thus , That hath deliuered mee out of all aduersitie , hee plainly sheweth , that hee did not intend any Created Angel , but insisted vpon the ground of the Word of God , whom hee coupleth with the Father in praying vnto Him , By whom God deliuereth whom he will deliuer , knowing that he was , as sometime he called , The Angel of the great Counsell of the Father . Iacob professeth it was Hee , and no other beside Him , that had deliuered Him out of all aduersitie , and had hitherto deliuered Him , and blessed Him also . Nor was it his meaning , by Prayer to obtaine a blessing for Himselfe at Gods hand , and to put ouer his Nephewes to bee blessed by Angels . But he prayeth vnto him to blesse his Nephewes , vnto whom Himselfe had sometime said , I will not let thee go except thou blesse me , and without all question this was God , as himselfe professeth and affirmeth plainly , I haue seene God face to face . It may seeme this Champion of Christ vndertooke his Masters cause in this , as hee did in the maine , against some Angel adorer in those dayes : so fully he discourseth vpon the point , at this day denied by Victorellus and others , Beu-pleaders for Inuocation and worship of Saints & Angels so frequent with them : For after other discourses hee concludeth thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . It was therefore none other , but the Lord God himselfe that appeared and said vnto him ; Loe I am with thee , I doe keepe thee , and preserue thee in thy way wherein thou walkest continually . I could father enlarge vpon the point out of others , but I write not Commentaries , nor Common-places . In opinion of Antiquitie and sense of the Church , Christ Iesus was that Angell that Iacob meant : and it is apertè false , and a forgery , which Bellarmine auoucheth , Hic apertè Sanctus Iacob , inuocauit Angelum . In opinion of Antiquitie , as in Euidence of truth , this Angel was no Created Spirit , but God Himselfe . Lastly , at least if He were an Angel , Hee was not any other but his guardian Angel : For the words in the Text doe imploy the office of his Angel guardian ; The Angel that hath kept mee from my childhood ; vnto whom now , being to goe the way of all flesh , hee might intend to put ouer his two young Nephewes , the Sonnes of Ioseph . Mistake me not , I say not he , meant his Angel guardian ; For I am fully resolued with the old Fathers , Hee meaneth Christ : but to suppose and grant Hee was an Angel , he could then be no other but his Guardian Angel , which will not pleasure the Perswaders in their plea at all . For in this present question touching Inuocation , the Case of Angels Guardians is peraduenture different , much and many wayes , from the condition , and employments of them at large . The conclusion is then , Iacob did not emplore the helpe or patronage of any Angell here , Iacob then cannot helpe the ● purpose . nor haue we any Precedent in Iacobs practice for our addresse in necessitie or other wayes , in point of asistance by Inuocation vnto Saint or holy Angels whomsoeuer . Nor is this Text of Scripture to the purpose .

I 〈◊〉 they will 〈…〉 . They proceed and produce the fift of Iob , Verse 1. for an Instance , or Precept for Inuocation . Call now if there bee any to heare , and vnto which of the holy Saints and Angels wilt thou turne thee ? Thus they enlarge vpon the Text , adding for explication , and Angels , which is not there . For by Saints they tell vs , Saint Augustine there vnderstandeth Angels . A needlesse allegation of Saint Augustine howsoeuer : for if Saints were only men and not Angels , yee if the allegation bee as they would perswade , the Text is to purpose , I deny not . The resolution beeing laid downe once for all , that in this question Angels and Saints goe passibus aequis for Inuocation . But so and not so it mattereth not : Nor Saints are able , nor yet Angels to relieue Him , or to vnderstand Him when hee calleth in time of Trouble . Siquis est qui respondeat , For , it rather make 〈◊〉 against them , and 〈…〉 . is as much in effect , as Nemo est qui respondeat . There is no helpe for thee in any one of them : therefore if thou call , it is to no purpose : as good an inducement as may , for Call vpon Me , Turne thee vnto them . Call vpon them , though neuer so loude , so often , so effectually , it is in vaine , They can neither helpe nor heare . The man that doth this , may take vp that saying to himselfe , Iob 19.14 My familiar friends haue forgotten mee , and well take vp that saying . For if that speech of Iob 19.21 . Miseremini mei amici mei , Haue compassion vpon me my friends , because it runneth out in tearmes of Inuocation , must bee vnderstood of the Angels of God , as our great Masters doe pretend ; then Angels , those very Friends by Iobs owne verdict , are to no purpose called vpon . For Verse 19. hee complaineth againe , All mine inward friends haue abhorred me . Such vnfortunate Vndertakers are these great Masters in Israel , that contrarie to Rules in their owne Schooles , doe for want of better euidence in a desperate Case , make speeches metaphoricall argumentatiue , and deriue demonstrations from Similitudes , which may indeed illustrate and explicate , but prooue 〈◊〉

But to grant which is not proued , Nay , suppose those words of Iob vnderstood as they would haue them : yet was it , if any at all , but a dispensatorie action . were Sancti Angeli in this passage , did God actually counsell and aduise Iob , or permit him only to make some Angell his Mediator ; yet what of that ? It was by way of dispensation . A passage not vsuall , but permitted vnto him extraordinarily . And courses of that kind , extraordinarie , and dispensatorie actions are not for vs . Therefore nothing is prooued by any of them . Vpon that supposition it might bee ( I say not it was so , I am perswaded otherwise ) that some Angell in particular might repaire vnto Him , conuerse with Him , vnto whom Iob then might , why not , vse such words of Inuocation or Intercession , as to his Friend , desire his helpe and assistance thus or thus , which aduanceth the vse and approbation of Inuocation , then Moses and Elias apparition in Glorie vpon Mount Tabor , the lewd and loud Lyes that are coyned daily in the Church of Rome of apparitions by the blessed Virgin at Lauretto , Sichem , to Ignatius Loyola , or such like ; or the Miracles of Eliseus doe iustifie , the supposed Forgeries , Miracles I should say , of that grand Impostor the Pampelonian Souldier Loyola , enrolled of late in the Kalender of Saints , more likely by farre , to be a firebrand in Hell .

And as they proue nothing from the practice of Iacob and Iob : neither can they from any other . I conclude , Shew mee it written in the Scriptures of the house of Israel , Old or New , that I should , I may addresse my selfe by Prayer or Intercession vnto any Angell : point mee out any practice , though practice bee 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 very ticklish in point of Pietie to goe further , so vsed or so supposed to bee vsed , by any one Writer for the time prefixed , viz. to the Councell of Chalcedon , & herbam porrigam , I will yeeld and say , Sancte Angele ora pro me . If not , if none be , or can bee alleaged Positiue to the point in question , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Adiew Angels intercessors to bee inuocated , it is but sopperie which is pretended . I would not willingly transgresse the Ancient bounds , nor violate the precincts and limits Antiquitie hath set . I know not any that practized this part of Pietie to make holy Angels their Mediatours , and said in their Deuotions with allowance , Sancte Angele ora pro me .

But yet De Angelo custode fortassis ampliandum . But whatsoeuer we denie for other Angels , perhaps they would plead more pro Angelo custode . Where a little to enlarge and expresse my selfe in this , being charged publikely and in print , for I confesse , I am the partie intended though not named , by that infamous Ecebolius of these times , and impious Renegado , I speake what I know , the vnworthy Archbishop of Spalato , in a publike Audience , and that before his Maiestie at Windsore , to haue affirmed expresly in a Sermon , And hope to euince it out of my owne mouth . That there was no cause why euery faithfull man should not turne himselfe vnto his Angell Keeper , and say , O holy Angell Keeper pray for me . I doe auouch in verbo Sacerdotis , that those words neuer passed the hedge of my lips , I neuer spake them as I know , and haue beene assured , his most sacred Maiestie can well remember . And who is this vncircumcised Philistine to be beleeued before the Lords Anoynted ? The truth is this , Preaching at Windsore vpon this present passage , Call vpon me , being then my course in that Church , and the words , Sermo diei in die suo , read in the Church at Prayer that day , which is and shall be my custome most what to preach vpon , as the Ancients vsed , to take some Text of the day , and somewhat enlarging by occasion vpon this practique part of that Romane Faith , and Tridentine prescription for Inuocation 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 to shew the folly thereof , In processe , falling on Angelicall intimation and assistance in the point , I vsed these very words , nor more nor fewer , Which was neuer opened to that purpose . De Angelo Custode fortassis Ampliandum . Which so spoken the man might vnderstand well enough , For I spake them in Latine , and hee was present , whatsoeuer else was spoken was in English , which , I am sure , hee vnderstood not at all , vnlesse his Angell Keeper , or Deuill attendant , did expound them to him .

Nor could it make any thing to their maine purpos● if it were spoken , Had I then so concluded touching Angelum custodem : yet Quid hoc ad Iphicli boues ? The Angell Keeper is not to bee remembred vpon equall tearmes with Angels of Commission extraordinary . Nor turning vnto Him with Pray for mee , vnto imploration of their aide , who haue no such commission ordinarie as hee hath , but are all vpon employments extraordinarie . Nor any more affinitie with the businesse in question , then Alexander the Copper-smith that wrought Saint Paul much vexation , had with Alexander of Macedon who so much troubled the whole World . It is an opinion receiued , and hath beene long that if not euery man , each sonne of Adam , yet sure ●ach Christian man regenerate by water and the holy Ghost , at least from the day of his Regeneration and new birth vnto God , if not from the time of his comming into the World , hath by Gods appointment and assignation , an Angell Guardian to attend vpon him at all assayes , in all his wayes , at his going forth , at his comming home . Who though hee goe inuisibly , and assist insensibly , as his Nature is , yet is supposed to attend vpon vs , to bee present with vs continually : Parum est fecisse Angelos tuos , fecisti & Custodes paruulorum , who Continually behold the face of their Father in Heauen . This being supposed to bee so : So that it were also rightly vnderstood . It being resolued that hee doth not leaue vs at all , the time of our life : it being beleeued , that he is euermore present at hand , and neere vnto vs : vnder correction , to say now , which I said not then , I see no absurditie in Nature , no incongruitie vnto Analogie of Faith , no repugnancie at all vnto sacred Scripture : much lesse impietie for any man to say , Sancte Angele custos ora pro me . This in priuate discourse I might say vnto him , talking vpon this , as wee did vpon many other particulars , disputed of betwixt the sides of Protestant and Romane Catholikes . It is no impietie , it can be no foolerie thus to resolue , only vpon the former supposition . For as to my Brother , or to my Friend at hand , neere vnto me , I may say , Good Friend , or good Brother , let mee haue your good Prayers vnto God for me : so good Angell Keeper pray for mee , supposing him present , and alway at hand , as , if he be Guardian perpetuall he must be . And therefore Caluine obserueth against this Romane tenet of Inuocation , Nor if wee granted Inuocation for all Angels , as well as this , would th●t 〈◊〉 the Inuocation of Saints . that the case is not the same betwixt Angels and Saints , because Angels are appointed , which Saints are not , and deputed to protect vs , though in particular hee grant no Angell Custos . It is true , that Inuocation of Saints is a point of Foolery , it being , at least vncertaine , whether they are , and in what manner they can be , acquainted with our wants , seeing their condition is not to attend vs , and they are remooued farre aboue our reach and Call , Though for them we grant not : for the Angell Guardian we might better grant it . though wee call vnto them neuer so often or so loude : but the case of Angell Guardians is farre different , being euer in procinctu , nigh at hand vnto vs , continually , and neuer abandoning vs all our dayes . If my selfe , at London should say vnto a friend at Constantinople or in the Indies , Sir helpe me , I might be laughed at deseruedly for my folly . This case commeth home to their practice of Inuocation . But if I speake vnto him that is present with me , standeth by me , to helpe and assist mee , I commit no absurditie in Reason , nor in Pietie . And this vpon supposall of Angell Keepers , which I vrge not as a point of beliefe or Pietie , Wee doe not vrge 〈◊〉 certaine truth . the case it selfe of Angel Keepers is not so resolued : but only mention , as of congruitie , because it is most probable there are such Keepers . If thus my selfe resolued , doe inferre , Holy Angel Keeper , pray for mee , I see no reason to bee taxed with point of Poperie or Superstition , much lesse of absurditie or impietie . But bee this as may be : Salus Reipublicae non vertitur in istis : a man may goe to Heauen that vseth it , and he that denyeth it may goe thither also , as likewise they may , hoc non obstante , goe either of them the contrary way , to the contrarie place ; through breach or obseruation of things of an higher nature , and greater allay tendred vnto vs vnder that strict forme , Beleeue this and liue .

But to returne to our Perswaders for Prayer vnto Saints , But , whatsoeuer we grant or denie , they are eloquent Orators , for the Inuocation of Saints too . they vse to tell vs many long and plausible Discourses , of the happie and blessed estate of the Saints in Heauen : of the fruition and enioying of his presence in Glorie , with whom is the fulnesse of ioy , at whose right hand is pleasure for euermore . They discourse of their Charitie and good affection vnto vs their Brethren militant in the Church vpon earth , the great desire they haue to doe vs good : their readinesse to helpe and to assist vs at need : The grace and fauour they are in with God , and the possibilitie they haue to bee heard in their desires , and to haue whatsoeuer they aske granted to them . As if it were questioned at all by vs , whether quoad statum they did see God or not : or were as yet , quoad locum , in Heauen with God or no. Some haue doubted of both in the Church of Rome I grant , especially for statum more materiall of the two : as Iohn 22. and that Renegado , a man of no Religion , as appeareth by his owne Profession , nor Conscience , who publikely taught little lesse then this , not by way of Probleme , but Position , as I am more particularly assured of it , who disswaded him from doing so , but he would not heare mee . Wee make question of neither Place or State , but in Faith and full assurance hold them partakers and possessed alreadie of that state of happinesse and glory with Christ Iesus , Vrging what we doe not denie de ●oco , & s●atu , who in the highest Heauens , sitteth at the right hand of God in Glorie , which winneth infallibly , leadeth indeclinably , holdeth inseparably vnto and with God . Foelix anima , as Saint Augus;tine meditateth vpon this state and condition of the Righteous : Quae terreno corpore resoluta , libera Coelum petit , secura est , & tranquilla : Non timet hostem neque mortem . Habet enim praesentem , cernitque indesinenter Dominum Deum pulcherrimum , sui seruiuit , quem dilexit , & ad quem tandem laeta & gloriosa peruenit . But what is this to purpose , But to no purpose . their being with God , enioying God , preuayling with God , louing vs ? to the purpose of ordinary power to assist vs : & practice of Intercession to mediate for vs ? What is i● to mee what another is in himselfe , if it be not otherwise ad me , that I receiue some benefit or aduantage ? Not any of these , nor all these indowments and atchieuements come home to the point of power and possibilitie , ordinarily to heare the Petitions of any , at any time , in any place , necessarily required , and to bee assured before I can say ; Ora pro me .

Nor is it to purpose or for aduantage , that they come in vpon the Seconds with a faire Discourse vnto Nouices and their Proselytes , of that loue and deare affection which they beare vnto their Brethren . And therefore doubt not , And , with as little successe , discoursing of their deare affection to vs . say they , as if this were questioned , or to the purpose , but they wish , and will , and what they can most readily procure , quantum in ipsis , as much as they can , and they can doe much , whatsoeuer in God may stead them or doe them good . They loue vs indeed , no question of that : and so consequently , according vnto the nature of loue in the effects thereof , will , and wish , and seeke the good of those whom they loue . Their loue is now greater being in Heauen , vnto man , then euer it was or could bee when and while they liued vpon Earth . For Charitie is transcendent in those celestiall Citizens . And therefore no question they pray for men vpon earth . But how ? and for whom ? All Christians in generall : their Brethren as yet in great tribulation : the Church militant vpon the face of the Earth . This they know : the state of these , and their necessities are knowen to them in Heauen : and vpon knowledge they doe commiserate them : and Commiseration procureth Intercession , else were there no Communion of Saints : no bond betwixt the militant and triumphant Church . In specie , for those Churches whereof themselues were parts , noble and liuely members yet being in the flesh : as more interessed there then otherwhere . For if charitie bee ordinate here vpon earth : diliguntur alieni , magis proxi●●i , maximè proprij ; It cannot be imagined to bee disordinate , it is not sure irregular in Heauen : where order is most of all especially regarded , as the Place and Persons , where and by whom Gods will is performed so absolutly , as that by the Doctor of Israel in his perfect patterne of Prayer , wee are thither addressed for imitation , thus , Thy Will bee done in Earth as it is in Heauen . But so for those ordinarily and of common course , as that which they pray for is the generall good of all , not the particular interest of any one . Thus Gregorie Nazianzene was perswaded himselfe , but did not presse others to beleeue it , that his deceased Father then with God did specially intercede for his particular flock . Orat. 19. pag. 288. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . I am verily perswaded and beleeue that my Father now with God , and the rather because hee is with God , doth by mediating and interceding with God for you , doe you more good , and stand you in greater stead by his prayers , then hee did while he liued amongst you by his Doctrine . This is the common voice with generall concurrence , without contradiction of reuerend and learned Antiquitie , for ought I euer could reade or vnderstand , and I see no cause or reason to dissent from them touching Intercession , in this kinde .

I adde in particular yet somewhat farther . ( To which we had rather adde then detract from it . ) Those with God , may and doe recommend vnto God in their celestiall Prayers , their kindred , friends , and acquaintance vpon Earth , whom they knew , in whose loue and familiaritie they had interest yet being in the flesh , & with whom they had conuersed more reseruedly . But no other sort and manner for them then onely for such instant and exigent necessities . But , in reference to what they were here acquainted withall . For such causes , occasions , and employments , as being yet in viuis , and conuersant with them , they knew of , vnderstood , and were acquainted withall or interessed in , and haue not forgotten being Resiants in those heauenly habitations , and all teares wiped away from their own eyes . For the Soule of man separated from the Body by Death , and subsisting alone in all freedome , Which they cannot but retayne in memorie . happinesse , and content with God , cannot bee thought to empaire or suffer losse in any indowment naturall or acquisite , which tend to perfection of state and being : and I speake and intend this of those indowments formerly had in time of life . For , as concerning those newly acquired , accruing in , and to the state they then enioy with God , speake they that can tell , if yet they can tell what they speake . Nor is it so strange . For if that those who are restored againe by Christ , and raysed vp from the dust of the earth , to liue with him in glorie , in the day of restauration of all by Christ and retribution of the Righteous , shall perfectly know , and take notice of , those whom they neuer knew nor saw , perchance nor heard of in the flesh , as being post-nati vnto them so many hundreds or thousands of yeeres : If they shall know Adam , Seth , Enoch , Noah , Abraham , all the Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles : how can they forget the names and notions of them , with whom they conuersed so many yeeres ? From whose societie and companie they so lately departed ? vnto whom they imparted of their owne secrets , and with whose counsels they were acquainted ? with whom so long they liued together seruing one God together as friends ? Diues in Hell , where the Soule , if any where , Since euen the soules in hell can doe it . loseth her indowments , knew Abraham whom he had neuer seene in Earth , and acknowledgeth him to be the Author of his stock and people the Iewes . Diues in Hell , had not forgot the number and condition of his Brethren on earth , and was also carefull and mindfull of them , least they should come into that place of torment . Whether it bee an Historie , as Tertullian and many other suppose , or else a Parable , as others rather thinke : yet euen so it will come home to purpose . For parables are not Chimaraes , or speculations meerely : but deduced from condition of things that bee . Hee saw him as hee could , with his vnderstanding ; he tooke notice of him , with his vnderstanding : Hee lost not the memorie of the things hee had ; who acquired the knowledge of what he had not . Had he lost what he had , it had beene in vaine for Abraham to haue said , Sonne remember , Ex hac parabola discimu● , well resolueth Euthymius , quòd in futuro saeculo non solùm peccatores vident bon●s , & boni peccatores , sed ●g●●scunt etiam igrotos . Nam Diues ab Abraham c●g●osc●tur , & Lazarus à reprobo epulons , saith Gregory . Nor will , nor effects of will are extinguished in them : either Naturall , in good things , as the rich man desired his Brethrens good , or Deliberatiue in bad , as being immutable vnto good . And doubtlesse if in Carcare , it be retained , much more it is eminent in palatio . The Saints in glory haue a greater portion , Glory being the Perfection of Grace , and Grace the aduancer of Nature , then the Reprobate in Hell can enioy , of the acts and perfections of the Soule .

Vpon this ground and perswasion of the Soules indowments , Celerinus in Cyprian , writeth vnto Lucianus , a man readie to be offered vp in persecution , thus : Rogo itaque Domine & peto per Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum , vt caeteris Collegis tuis fratribus mejs & Dominis referas & abijs petas , vt quicunque prior vestrûm coronatus fuerit , istis Sororibus nostris Numeriae & Candidae tale peccatum remittant . I intreate and beseech you sir , by our Lord Iesus Christ , that you speake vnto the rest of your Collegues , and Fellow Confessors , my Brethren and Masters in Christ , and intreate them that whosoeuer shall first obtain the Crowne of Martyrdome , aske and procure forgiuennesse of this Sinne , vnto our Sisters Candida and Numeria . This indeed Cyprian hath by way of Relation , remembring the practice of another man : but He himselfe in another place out of his owne iudgement , maketh this request for himselfe ; Mementote tunc mej , cum in vobis virginitas honoratur . And hee maketh this agreement and compact with Cornelius , Bishop of Rome , and holy Martyr ▪ That whether of them twain should depart this life first , should remember his companion left behinde , and recommend his estate vnto God in Heauen . In his 57. Epistle thus . Concordes atque vnanimes vtrobique pro nobis semper oremus : pressuras & angustias mutuâ charitate releuemus . Et siquis isthine nostrum prior diuinae dignationis celeritate praecesserit , perseueret apud Dominum nostra dilectio pro fratribus ac sororibus apud misericordiam Patris non cesset Oratio . And answerable to this , out of the same perswasion is that of Hierome , where he putteth Heliodorus in mind , what hee would haue him doe for him after death . Tunc & parentibus eiusdem ciuitatis scispetes , & pro me rogabis qui te vt vinceres induxi . Hee prayeth not to him being dead , but aduiseth him what to doe when hee is dead ; Remember his Friend vpon Earth left behinde , and Recommend his Cause vnto the Almightie : which is nothing to the Romane Inuocation of Saints ( if yet Saints ) altogether vnknowen and vnacquainted with any of vs in their Life time .

Thus farre wee may goe peraduenture safely , in Negotiation betwixt the Saints dead and aliue , and that through euery species and kinde of Prayer and Supplication . Intercession for good to bee obtained . Neither doe we onely grant this memory : but , if they wil a more peculiar care , and charge of their friends here . Deprecation of euill to be auoyded ; giuing God thankes for good obtained and receiued . I adde yet further , peraduenture some Saint or Saints departed , may haue more speciall care of , interest in , charge ouer , some men or man , Country , or Countries , then is vsed ordinarily , or others commonly haue by vsuall disposition ; out of some speciall dispensation , peculiar deputation , out of ardent affection , religious deuotion , or some like other regard best knowen and approoued vnto God , in his secret counsell and purpose , in some extraordinary course . Leo had this opinion of Saint Peter , as appeareth in his Epistles in sundry places ; as specially superuising and patronising the Church of Rome . Nos experti sumus , saith hee , & nostri probauere majores , Serm 1. de S. Petro & Paulo . credimus & confidimus inter omnes labores istius vitae , ad obtinendam misericordiam Dei semper nos specialium Patronorum orationibus adjunandos . And it may be admitted , that , as opinion hath beene , some certaine Saints haue more speciall Care , and a peculiar Patronage , Custodie , and protecting Power , as Angels also haue , ouer certaine Persons and Countries by especiall deputation . Not for employment , to bee sent è tabernaculis beatorum , the Office of Angels in their Ministery , but for aduancement of their good , in generall intercession for the Bodie , not in speciall mediation for any part or member occasionally : Examples hereof are frequent and many . Saint George is accounted the Patron of England : And this also , as we did the other , de Angelo Custode , we doe but grant , we doe not vrge , de fide . Saint Andrew of Scotland : Saint Iames for Spaine ; others for other People and Countries anciently chosen and deputed . It needs not bee tendred or held as de fide ; it is no point of necessitie to Saluation ; it may bee true , there is no Impietie in beleeuing so or so : nor doth this opinion of a generall Protection , inferre any speciall Intercession . This I am sure , the Ancients supposed it , and were of opinion , yet neuer said to any such Patron Saint , Ora pro Nobis , or Pro me . Leo had that opinion for Saint Peter ouer Rome . Nor doe we thence inferre Intercession . Basil imagined the like for those fortie Martyrs of Caesarea . Nazianzene relateth a storie done , whereby the most blessed Mother of God , may seeme to haue speciall Care of holy Virgins : De Cura pro mort . Cap. 16. And S. Augustine supposeth not much differently . Deus suorum merita Martyrum vbi vult , quando vult , quomodo vult , maximè per eorum memorias , quoniam hoc nouit nobis expedire ad aedificandam fidem Christi , pro cujus illi confessione passi sunt bonitate mirabili & ineffabill commendat . So Saint Augustine opined , and I see nothing to the contrary , but so may wee . For no support is hence , no direction , no colour at all for Call vnto them ordinarily . Incident occasions newly arising euery day , haue no dependencie vpon , nor correspondencie with these Precedents . Though Cyprian and Cornelius might so agree in time of Life , while ordinarily they could speake or intimate their Necessities one vnto another : though hee that dyed first of them two ( Cornelius was the man , first martyred ) might , and doubtlesse did recommend Saint Cyprian , left behinde him , vnto God in his prayers , and so strengthen his Faith , confirme his Loue , aduance his desires and deserts in suffering , and that , according vnto compact , and promise betwixt them two in Earth ; yet was this no warrant for Saint Cyprian , remaining behinde some yeeres after him , to direct his addresses vnto Saint Cornelius , for after occasions not knowne vnto him before his death . Nor did hee euer after put him in minde of his promise , or commend his Case vnto him , with Sancte Corneli , ora pro me . For how could hee giue him notice thereof , which is in this Case , all in all ? And though it may bee , for wee are not ascertained , nor can so bee , nor euer were any so resolued , that the Martyrs had some interest in some occasions , in some places , toward some persons extraordinarily , that some Saints haue peculiar dispensations : yet I say with Saint Augustine in the place before remembred , Ista diuinitùs exhibentur : longè aliter quàm se habet vsitatus ordo singulis Creaturarum generibus attributus : as euen the opposites must confesse . Because we are to bee ruled by ordinary course ; not by extraordinary dispensation . And we are to be regulated and directed by that Ordo in rebus vsitatus , not to addresse our selues for Practice , vnto vnusuall courses of extraordinary dispensation . Non omni quia in vinum aqua cum voluit Dominus repentè conuersa est , ideo non debemus quid aqua valeat , in Element●rum ordine proprio ab istius diuini operis raritate , vel potiùs singularitate , discernere . Nec , quoniam Lazarus resurrexit , iccirco mortuus omnis quando vult resurget : aut eo modo exanimis à viuente , quomodo Dormiens à vigilante excitatur . Alia sunt , rerum humanarum limites , alia diuinarum signa virtutum : alia sunt quae naturaliter , alia quae mirabiliter fiunt . In effect these passages are not to purpose for our Deuotion , who are left vnto ordinary courses of kinde , and not directed to incertaine , extraordinary , dependant dispensations .

Therefore wee put in Ordinarily , and it must not in any case bee left out . For Ordinary , and Reuealed things are for vs , Secret , and reserued , for God . Reason in Nature , Illumination in Grace , from Reuealed Intimation , must bee the pole-starre of our passage in practice : eyther Lex scripta , or ●onnata : What wee haue read , or are assured of . It may bee peraduenture by some speciall dispensation and indulgence , vpon some Reason best knowne and reserued vnto the Maiestie of Heauen , And we are not to conclude a general out of some particulars ▪ that Some one holy Saint , or also many holy Saints , may in some certaine cases , take speciall notice of some men , bee especially informed in some particulars , and giue thereupon particular helpe and assistance , at some time , vnto some persons , in some places , as Saint Augustine relateth of the Reliques of Saint Stephen : and Ambrose , of Protasius and Geruasius . Yet this particular , these many particulars , cannot make a Generall in true Art and Reason : and therefore the rule tendered as Generall thereupon must needs bee faultie . God is not tyed vnto Course in kinde ; nor necessitated by the Law , which Himselfe hath proposed and appointed in Nature . And therefore , though according vnto Order , and Course established , the Soules of the Righteous in the hands of God , haue no commerce at all any more , As , on the other side , we must not confine God , or limit his Saints from particular dispensations . or Conuersation with men , so farre , as to bee acquainted with their ordinarie affaires and proceedings , or to take notice of their Courses , which is the true meaning of Caluin in that place ; Lib. Instit . 3. Cap. 20. Sect. 24. belyed by Bellarmine , so farre as if the man denyed an Article of the Creed , the Communion of Saints : yet extraordinary dispensations are not thereupon denyed , or thereby taken away at all . For Moses and Elias , came forth of Paradise actually , and were seene vpon Mount Tabor , talking with Christ Iesus in Glory . For Potamiaena remembred her promise after her death made vnto Basilides in her life , and in a Vision set a Crowne of Gold , in assurance of Martyrdome , vpon his head : related by Eusebius , in his sixth Booke , and fifth Chapter . And so Christ Iesus might meete Saint Peter at Rome Gates , though Heauen must containe him till the End of all : and Mercurius wound Iulian the Apostata to death by speciall dispensation . So ordinarily , though when the Soule is departed out of the Bodie , and the bodie returned into dust , not to bee restored againe to life till the Day of Doome and Consummation of all : yet contrary to this course of kinde , some haue beene raised againe to life by Diuine Power , extraordinarily , as we are assured : and some peraduenture vnto eternall Life , not to returne againe vnto their dust , as those that rose at our Sauiours Resurrection , and were really discerned and seene of many , the first fruits with the first begotten of the dead , Illos non tumulos certum est repetisse silentes , Ampliùs , aut terra retineri viscere clausos . as Tertullian is peremptorie and the most of our Writers old , new . But Olle quid ad te ! these Dispensatorie Singularities of Gods will and power vnto some particulars , are no Rules for our Actions , or Expectations . Reuealed things , and ordinary only are for vs , Though wee must not regulate our actions by them . and to be our directions in practice of Pietie and Deuotion . Wee are not to relye vpon what God can doe , nor what he sometime hath done : but only vpon that ordinary course , which vnlesse he shall thinke fit otherwise to dispose of , hee hath appointed to bee alway kept and done . Whatsoeuer he will doe , I know hee can doe . If once it be 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 gone out of his mouth , it is not impossible : it shall come to passe . Vnlesse we haue very good warrant indeed , and where it may bee had speake those that can tell , such speciall Acts of peculiar Dispensations build not vp our Faith towards sauing of our Soules , no● yet square out our practice any way . Can wee finde it assured vs by good warrant vnquestionable , that Angels and Saints , both or either , attend vs in our courses at all assayes ? If wee can , say and spare not , Holy Angell , holy such , or such a Saint pray for vs : If no such assurance , then I see no warrant so to say : Their will is good , no doubt , Wee conclude then , that there is no question , whether they are affected to vs , but how they are informed , of our wants . for what they can doe . No man will doubt of their good affections , vnto their Brethren , who knoweth their Charitie is inlarged . Their Power is great , no question , to doe much which they will doe . Much indeed , but not yet all they would doe . Whatsoeuer they aske at Gods hands for Christs sake , they obtaine it , without controuersie . God denieth them nothing . Nor any on Earth so soone as Saints in Heauen , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , haue God so ad placitum , and command in a sort that I may so speake , as they : being powerfull with Him to preuaile for all their desires . But yet as Ignoti nulla cupido , No man affecteth that whereof hee neuer heard : So no man doth commiserate , the partie and case hee neuer knew . The Heart , wee say , rueth not , what the Eye seeth not . Can they then intreate for mee , or for any , without Information wherein or for what ? How shall I informe them for my estate , or bee sure I am heard when I supplicate thus , Sancta Maria ora pro me ? Shee is in Heauen : I vpon Earth , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a great Gulfe is betwixt these two places . She is there by Definition , or Circumscription , as the Soule separate can be determined and confined . Shee neuer knew mee or mine in the flesh : had no correspondencie with any of my Kinne , beeing gathered to her Fathers in ioy with her sonne , long before my selfe was borne into the World , or had any thing to doe , amongst the sonnes of men . I know the saying is that , Kings haue long eares , their 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Agentes , in rebus and many Informers giue them notice of passages euery where . And yet not so long , but that many great Rumours of great sound and noyse neuer came within the compasse of their Eares . But whether Saints in Heauen haue such long Eares or not , Bellarmine cannot resolue Caluin , I am sure , though hee traduce him for vsing the Phrase , as if hee would embase the glorie of Gods Saints , who meant only to shew the folly of these Perswaders in this particular .

Pag. 156. de al●era vita . It is childish and ridiculous that Pinello the Iesuite hath , Abraham was heard praying for Abimelech , when hee liued vpon Earth : Hee will therefore bee much sooner heard of God , being now in Heauen , for those that he commendeth vnto Him . Ridiculous : For this is not the Question , whether hee shall now bee sooner heard or no : but , whether hee can as well recommend any now vnto God , as hee did the Case of Abimelech , beeing with Him . Can hee as well heare and vnderstand those men that desire him now to recommend their cause vnto Christ , as he could Abimelech when he requested him to pray for Him ? If hee can so well , and easily vnderstand their Case , I grant hee shall as soone , nay sooner be heard . See how toyishly these great Masters play with their owne fancies , making much adoe , with that which need not trouble their enquiries , but balking the maine of which most men doe doubt , and yet this is that Achilles for the Catholike Cause , that vnanswerable Argument , forsooth , which the Master of Controuersies boasteth of could neuer be answered nor assailed . We reade , saith He , in both Testaments Viuentes , à viuentibus inuocatos : his meaning is , that men yet liuing haue desired the Prayers of their Brethren yet liuing also , as for instance , Rom. 15. the Apostle intreateth thus , I beseech you Brethren assist mee with your Prayers vnto our Lord , therefore , Licebit etiam nunc eosdem Sanctos cum Christo regnantes inuocare . Euery Child can giue a non sequitur to this foolish Reason , Therefore it is lawfull to inuocate the same Saints now with Christ . Lawfull for Saint Paul I suppose , meaneth he not so ? Sure the Argument concludeth for Him , if for any , as though Saint Paul now stood in need of the Romans Prayers . If lawfull for vs to doe now that which Saint Paul did then : and this bee his meaning as it is , but that I know him a man of extraordinary Learning , I would suppose him scarce a Smatterer in common sense and reason ; so that needs , Roscius noluit agere , aut crudior fuit : the man was not himselfe in this childish dispute , their state being different , their conditions diuers , much and many alterations interuening euery way . Were there but some circumstances not the same , it were sufficient to alter the state of the Question . But saith He , the great Controuerser , thus . And therefore that they plead in vaine for Inuocation , If wee may not much more and rather inuoke them now , then Saint Paul might then speake vnto them , it is either because they will not intermediate for vs , and this is false : Or because they cannot : and that is false : Or because it is not sitting they should as being an iniurie done to Christ , vnto whom alone all our Addresse should bee . The first hee prooueth , because their Loue is inlarged , and vpon the improouement of their Charitie , their desires much greater to doe vs good . The second , because their Power is much larger now then it was then . The third hee saith , cannot be supposed , for then Christ was also wronged in his Office , if liuing men on Earth desire their Brethren , in priuate or publike to pray for them . Indeed I grant Christ is not wronged in his Mediation , It is no impietie to say as they doe , Sancta Maria , ora pro me : Sancte Petre , ora pro me . and so no wrong vnto Christ Iesus , to vse mediation of Intercession vnto Him . As it is taught , I adde in their Schooles : by their Doctors : resolued by that Oracle of Trent . But not as is practised in their vse and custome , where simple men inuoke Saints as they doe God : goe to their Deuotions vnto the blessed Virgin , not only far more frequently then to Christ Iesus : but without any difference at all goe to it downe right , as to the Authors and Originals of the things they desire , hauing them in their power to bestow or not . They haue power much more then they had on Earth . Not to giue , but to intreate , to preuaile with God , now sooner , in the state of blisse and immutabilitie , then in the state of Subiection vnto Sinne and Miserie . But admit it not Impietie , as I thinke it is not , It is flat and egregious foolerie at the best .

Peter might say to Paul at Antioch , Vnlesse , they could proue them acquainted with our affaires , when they liued together ; and Vice versa , Paul vnto Peter , Pray for mee , without scruple , or doubt , or question at all . But what need for one to say so now to either , when neither needeth Intercession of other ? I cannot say now to either one or other without incongruitie , or touch of Foolerie , Pray for me . Were I with Them : could I come at them : or certainly enforme them of my estate , without any question or more adoe , I would readily and willingly say , Holy Peter , blessed Paul , Pray for me : Recommend my case vnto Christ Iesus our Lord . Were they with mee : by mee : in my kenning , I would runne with open armes , and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , fall vpon my knees , and with affection desire them to pray for me . But seeing it is nor so , nor so : at least I cannot bee resolued so , nor all Saint-inuocators in the World can prooue it so : I would gladly see and know , by what warrant I on Earth so vncouth and therefore vnkist , so vnknowne vnto them altogether , for ought can bee proued , so farre remoued from all ordinarie meanes of intimation to make my case knowne , can say vnto them , Holy Peter , blessed Paul , pray for mee . Let their great Grace and Fauour with God alone : of which I make no question . Their loue and entire affection vnto their Brethren alone , of which I am as well perswaded as all the Romane Catholikes in the World are . And in both these respects , their more then probabilitie to preuaile in whatsoeuer they shall petitionate God for mee . All this is nothing , to no purpose , if they cannot tell who nor what I am : what I would haue or desire them to sollicite for , or whether I speake vnto them , implore their assistance , or recommend my suite vnto them or not . For I must needes in common reason , make him acquainted with what I would haue , whom I meane to employ in that I would haue . Knowledge is the first moouer in all humane actions whatsoeuer . Vltimus actus intellectus practici , est primus voluntatis : The Will willeth not , but that which is suggested by Vnderstanding . Knowledge is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 all in all in this present question and dispute of Inuocation of Saints , which ordinarily they seeme not to haue of themselues , nor yet possibilitie to be informed thereof . Or shew how they should be acquainted with them . Prooue mee this , that they haue or may haue notice thereof , and proue all . I will no more contend against their Intercession , if any Papist liuing , or all the Papists liuing can prooue that I may make my necessities knowne vnto them ordinarily ; but instantly subscribe without more adoe . I grant they know much , and that ordinarily of themselues , their owne indowments , or else by infused , or reuealed knowledge . Know all they doe not , no not what is necessary and required in this case ; and what they know , or how much , none but themselues , or God can relate : which was neuer yet discouered , that I could find . To make them omniscious wee know , is to giue them that of God , which is Incommunicable to a Creature . Bellarmine rightly detesteth this , and complaineth that Melanthon doth iniuriously cast this aspersion vpon their Church . Wee are told , and haue heard much talke , of their morning and euening knowledge , of their Naturall power and free disposition ; of Diuine supernaturall dispensation ; of Angelicall information ; of Almightie reuelation . But all these and other , bring forth no better or stronger issue , then some things , at some times , some of them , wee know not who : by some meanes or other wee cannot tell what ; may attaine vnto , God knoweth how much : and so leaue vs vncertaine wee know not where , to relye vpon some helpe , wee know not from whom , what , or how farre . The great Canuaser of Controuersies , for all his confidence , was faine to fall off with a flat Ignoramus , touching their knowledge resolued on by himselfe for a stay : and cast vs off at aduentures , with this resolution irresolute euery way ; Vnde sciant Angeli conuersionem peccatorum , pro qua tantoperè gaudent in coelis , vt dicitur , Luc. 14. Indè sciunt Sancti nostri , nostras preces . The question was asked by one in good earnest , How the Saints in Heauen may come to take notice of our prayers : his answere is , In that very sort as the Angels come to know the conuersion of a Sinner , for which they so much , and so greatly reioyce . But , good Sir Confuter of Caluin , resolue vs of fellowship , vndè is it that Angels know that ? and then peraduenture we may bee still as farre to seeke for answere , as hee is said to bee , vnto this indissoluble argument of Intercession of Saints departed ; because men liuing are employed as Mediators vnto God by Prayer , therefore the Saints may be so employed .

Whether by Intuitiue knowledge , or communication . But to come to the point : Whatsoeuer thing or Substance hath , or can haue a knowledge of the state and condition of another , must haue it originally , or by Meanes and Communication . Originall knowledge , is Plenary and Intuitiue , peculiarly proper vnto God alone , who is intimi●r vnto euery thing , then the thing is or can be to it selfe : And vnderstandeth more and more perfectly , then that Thing doth by , or of it selfe . For he only hath knowledge comprehensiue . The knowledge that Saints and Angels haue , ( For in this Question as is specified , they are not diuided by the Perswaders to their Intercession ) is Communicated , not originall ; they being not Creators , but Creatures . Communicated from God two wayes , as is auouched . In Himselfe : without Himselfe . That Supernaturally to Saints and Angels : by which they that beholde his Face in glory , doe withall , in him , as in a glasse , behold infinite Formes of things and beings . The other naturally proceeding from the Power of that indowment , wherewith Saints and holy Angels are indowed , quatenus tales , in that their blessed estate . Antiquitie , taking vp the phrase from a passage in Saint Augustine , hath named these two different degrees and kindes of knowledge in Men and Angels , Matutinam & Vespertinam cognitionem : Their Morning and Euening knowledge . That which they know in beholding of God , most perfect and pure , by way of Resultation from his alsufficiencie . That which resideth in themselues , and proceedeth from themselues , not so eminent , excellent , nor so far extended as the other . Whether by effluxe and emanation out of themselues , by species congenitas , which is not probable : or else , which is most likely , though themselues are not perswaded , nor yet resolued of it , by sp●cies abstractas , from the Creatures . Concerning their Morning knowledge more anon , when wee come to take a view of their glasse of the Deitie .

But as touching their Euening , or Naturall knowledge , For , their knowledge may be strict enough . seeing it is vncertaine whence , and what it is , or how farre it extendeth ; who can determine ? or of what Capacitie and Efficacie it is . For either wee must determine of it from the Effects ; or conclude of it by the Cause . The Cause is vncertaine ; because vnknowne . The Effects vncertaine ; because vnapprehended . Who can say how far it extendeth ? Who can measure or bound it out , that neuer yet spake with any Saint or Angel to be informed , and take thence resolution ? And for any experimentall knowledge thereof , it is absolutely without the verge of mans walke . How little , how much soeuer it bee , it is put downe by themselues as a ruled Case : Their Naturall disposition , or vnderstanding , doth not reach home to such a Power or abilitie , as necessarily must concurre , and is required absolutely vnto Inuocation , but is of an assise , by much shorter and more curtayled then will serue : as thus . The Prayers , Petitions , and Desires of Men , vpon any occasion , at any time , are either Conceptus animi , meerely Mentall , and not expressed by voyce : or withall Vocall , thereby made knowne vnto such as are within distance . Mentall Prayers meerely they apprehend not , nor vnderstand at all . For how can any Vnderstand the Spirit of man , the thoughts of the heart of man , but the man whose thoughts they are , who is priuie to his owne minde ? Onely God , who made and fashioned the Heart : Who vnderstandeth all things long before they come to passe : Who seeth from euerlasting to euerlasting , intuitiuely , knoweth the secrets , discouereth the boughts and turnings of the heart , because hee is intimior , neerer vnto man , then man is or can be to Himselfe . Vocall prayers they cannot , being out of distance , not present with , or neere vnto them that call . Now in case of Petition and Inuocation , it often standeth thus : Men in diuers , and those remote and distanced places , farre asunder , may , and often doe , at one and the same time and instant , Call , and Cry out for helpe and assistance in their exigent necessities . How shall they helpe , who cannot heare ? How can they heare , that are not present , or neere , either actually , or virtually , by Contiguitie , or Continuitie , vnto and with those that Call ? As Saints in Heauen , and men vpon Earth , nor are , nor can be so present each with other ordinarily : except perhaps , and but also perhaps , by some particular dispensation . I grant , that the Soule is a Substance of exceeding quick dispatch , and of wondrous agilitie euerie way : especially sole , it selfe intire , separate from the incumbrances of the Bodie . And yet , vltra posse non est esse . The actiuenesse of it is not indetermined , or vncircumscribed . The Soule is a Substance confined To , where it is , and worketh determinately . If heere , not there : if in one place , at instant not in another , and though mooueable , yet how , in what fashion , with what disposition who can say , or determinately resolue ?

It is an Idle , as are many moe in him , speculation , that I say not Prophane , which Pinell●s the Iesuite hath , Lib. 1. ca. 17. . de alterâ vita . How farre soeuer the Iesuite seemes to extend it , that the Soules of the Righteous , now in Heauen with God : of all the Righteous , and euery one of them : euen the lowest and least in the Kingdome of Heauen , doe behold in verbo , or in Essentiâ diuinâ , the formes and fashions , the seuerall natures and kindes of all things whatsoeuer , that were done , procured , or brought forth in the world . The frogs and lice of Egypt . The gourd of Ionas : the haire that Absolon shaued and weighed in the scales : him weighing it in the ballance hauing beene poled . And why so ? Ratio est , and it is worth the marking , quia omnes beat● naturale quoddam habent desiderium ejusmodi res cognoscendi ; The Soules of the Righteous haue a Naturall propense inclination and desire to see and know all such things as these : all the things that are in God , and , an Actuall desire , nor is , nor can bee frustrate for euer . In effect this is , to see and know as much as God himselfe seeth or knoweth ; not onely what may or can bee imparted vnto them from God . Which desire , if any such hath beene , or is , is too very much extrauagant and exorbitant . Lucifer did no more . His desire was to be equall with God ; and in knowledge , at least , Beyond all reason . like vnto the most High . But whatsoeuer the man childishly imagineth of them , their desire is limitted , and must bee ordinate . It is at all times conformable vnto Gods wil , & euermore submitted , subiected vnto his good pleasure . More then hee will discouer they must not know : they cannot ; they doe not desire to vnderstand . And that this in question was of that kinde , hee should haue prooued , and not haue brought in , what no man denieth , Hee fulfilleth all their desire . Proue that this is a part of their Desire . It is no part or portion of ; it belongeth not to , the Essence of their happinesse or Perfection : though it belong vnto Perfection , and is a principall part thereof . But Perfection of God , and not of man . Of Diuine perfection whereto it is consequent : Not of humane , to which it is not appendant , nor hath any relation thereto at all . Now it is not the Diuine , but humane Perfection , that is their inheritance . Farther , their indowments are not extended , Neither doth the deniall of that knowledge , argue 〈◊〉 imperfection in them . Perfectum est , cui nihil deest , secundùm modum perfectionis ejus . Not simply and absolutely , Cui nihil deest : Such is the Perfection of God alone ; who absolutely is alsufficient to Himselfe , and w●nteth or standeth in need of nothing : But such Perfection , as whereof the thing is capable , according vnto kind , and in degree of possibilitie which it hath to receiue such endowments ordinarily . Now it is the resolution of their owne Schooles : Non est de ratione beatitudinis essentialis , vt nostras orationes , aut alia facta nostra matutinâ cognitione in verbo videant . It doth no way appertaine to the Essence , and condition of the felicitie of Gods chosen in the land of the liuing , that they know our Desires , or vnderstand our Prayers , by beholding of them in God . So Gabriel Lect. 31. in Canon : Missae . And it is not certaine , saith the same Gabriel , whether it be incident to their felicitie accidentall . The one Certaine , quod non : it is not at all any part of Essentiall happinesse : The other Vncertaine , An sic , whether it concurre to Accidentall happinesse or no. Then what Certaintie is there for the Inference , they doe know ; Or for the Preface , they Desire to know ; when all their Desire , as it is ordinate , so doth it make for their happinesse one way or other , Essentiall , or Accidentall . Therefore for the mayne , Gabriel concludeth , That the Saints with God , doe not by any power of their owne : by any Naturall or Euening Knowledge whatsoeuer , vnderstand our Prayers Mentall or Vocall , Nullas Orationes nostras , peremptorily , neque mentales , neque vocales cognoscunt . They are not then Idonei auditores of vs , when wee Call , though wee Call , and Cry , and Roare ; though 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 with strong Cries and Supplications wee lift vp the voice .

For his Reason is to purpose , vnanswerable , vndenyable , They are too farre remooued out of distance . They and wee are disparted so farre asunder , it is not possible there should be Relation at all . And yet in point of Inuocation it will appeare , and hee confesseth as much , that their Naturall or Euening knowledge only is that which we must trust vnto : as being alonely in their power to vse and to dispose : and of ordinarie dispensation . Therefore Gregorie saith himselfe , as Bellarmine confesseth , that Iob is peremptorie against Naturall knowledge where he saith , Vnto which of the Saints wilt thou turne thee ? And so hee there putteth ouer all vnto the glasse of the Deitie● which alone in conclusion must beare all . But because it is the last hope and refuge they haue , wee adiourne it vnto the last place , and take in some other vncertainties by the way .

But the Patrons of this cause , confirme their knowledge further by Angelicall Reuelation . As in point of Irresolution men fleete vp and downe , catch sometime at this , sometime at that : so they retyre , being beaten off from Naturall knowledge of Saints , vnto Angelicall Reuelation . So by Intimation and Ministerie of the Angels , Mens Actions , Petitions , States , and Necessities , say they , are imparted and made knowne vnto the Saints in Heauen , who , as they are charitable abundantly , doe instantly addresse themselues to intreate the Almightie for reliefe . To make this good , Saint Augustine is produced ; Who indeed in his Booke , De Curâ pro Mortuis Cap. 15. amongst other peraduentures and vncertainties , as himselfe professeth them to bee , falleth vpon this of Angelicall Intimation . Possunt & ab Angelis , qui rebus quae aguntur hic praesto sunt audire aliquid mortuj , quod vnum quemque illorum audire debere iudicais , cui cuncta subiecta sunt . In which passage not to purpose , it is plaine and euident , that Saint Augustine doth not relie vpon it : insisteth not on it at all , as certaine . Possunt audire , It may be they doe heare , is all hee will stand vnto , and that neither is but aliquid , which hee so propoundeth , and that aliquid , yet limited with a iudicat . So in conclusion , Saints may peraduenture , and peraduenture not , Heare and know something from Angelicall Relation , if hee will and permit , and no otherwise : and as hee permitteth and willeth both , whose Absolute Will is the Rule of all : who dispenseth euen this also as hee pleaseth . Is not this good assurance for Inuocation ? But admit it more certaine then as yet we can find it ; The Proposers of this May be this so vncertayne Proposition , doe first of all in the Assertion crosse , and fall foule with their owne Position ; that Saints in this dispute , and to this purpose are euery way equall vnto the Angels . Which mainly opposeth the foresaid equalitie of Saints and Angels . For equalitie supposeth the same tearmes vbique . And Saints haue it no otherwise then vpon retayle , at second hand . For the Angels make it knowne vnto them , who else had beene Ignorant , and that inuincibly , of the particulars . Secondly , if they vrge Angelicall Reuelation , At the least , if that Angelicall Reuelation may be granted . then that vnanswerable Argument of the Controuerser is but as a Shaw foule , in a Corne field , Vndè sciunt Angeli conuersionem peccat●rum , indè sciunt Sancti nostras prec●s . False , and falsly alleaged of him , out of his owne mouth , by the verdict of his Associates . For Saints know them no otherwise then by Information from Angels . Angels know and vnderstand the Repentance of Sinners and their Conuersion , by Naturall or acquired knowledge , as being then present some of them , when Peter , for instance wept bitterly : or Nineueh repented in Sackcloth and ashes . Angels are all of them , Saints are none of them , ordinarily , without any exception or priuiledge , of Hierarchicall Order , Ministring Spirits , as their very name importeth , Gods Agents employed in the Church , in Defensiue sort , to protect his Friends , in Offensiue actions to oppugne his Foes , generally vsed and employed for their good , who shall bee heires of the Promise . Now as is their Employment in Destination : such their Execution , in putting it to practice , as they should : to visit , take notice of , assist , insue , protect , prouide for : and that either Ordinarily , as Leiger Angels doe ; for their particular and peculiar charge being Custodes paruulorum , by speciall assignement : or extraordinarily , as doe Angels at large , where and when God sendeth them vpon speciall seruice .

Or , beeing granted if it make a compleate information . The men that Moses sent , to search out and to view the Land of Canaan , made report at their Returne of their Obseruations there . In like sort , bee it granted that Angels at their Returne home into Heauen from their Agencie on Earth , impart what they find , and haue obserued in their Agencie abroad , either one to another , Saints and Angels , as it were of course and in full Assemblies : or occasionally in particular as it hapneth . Neither is certaine , neither assured . Beside , as much to seeke are wee , Whether all they know , haue met with and obserued in lumpe , or what may concerne each ones particular to whom they doe impart it : as to Saint Peter that which toucheth the Romane State and Papacie , to Saint George of England , Saint Iames of Spaine , Saint Denis of France , what is for them to know , in and touching those Countreyes ouer which they are designed or reputed Patrons . Whether so or otherwise , speake those that can tell : if yet they can tell what it is they speake . Luke 15.17 . There is ioy in Heauen amongst Angels for the Conuersion of a Sinner . And it is , I grant it , a Necessarie inference , Therefore they knew it first : or else they had not reioyced for it . They did know it without all question : nor doe I , nor need I , dispute the question , or enquire the manner how they came to know it . Angels , and Saints also without question know and vnderstand much done vpon Earth , For a compleat and generall knowledge can not be proued by one particular . which yet doth nothing further Inuocation . One Swallow maketh not Summer , no more then one Woodcocke doth Winter . The Granting of one Act , though ordinarily , necessarily ( and yet it cannot bee said here , So , or so ) doth not in any good Logicke inferre a Generalitie . Because they know the Conuersion of a Sinner , Mary Magdalen , suppose it , or Zacheus , a thing notorious in it selfe , and done in the view of Men and Angels ; doth it insue , that therefore necessarily they know all the desires , thoughts , wishes , and Prayers , nay I will say publike Actions of the one or other ? much lesse doe they so vnderstand all things of all men in all places whatsoeuer . The Conuersion of a Sinner is a particular : and no particular doth conclude a Generall . Else , because Eliseus knew the Secrets of the King of Aram , and the packing of Gehezi with Naaman ; there was done in Israel nothing but he knew it , which wee know to be otherwise by his owne confession , in the Shunamites Case , Shee is troubled , and the Lord hath not reuealed it vnto mee .

Secondly , that particular is of a mayne consequence , Specially from that particular : of the conuersion of a Sinner . The bringing home againe of the lost Sheepe . An Action of such Nature and employment , as toucheth the Communion of Saints . And so the sooner , and rather , imparted vnto those , that are interessed as members are all , more or lesse , in the Collaterall mayne Actions of another member . Therefore wee reade that a Feast was made , and publike ioy frequented , at the Prodigals returne home vnto his Father : not vsuall in matters of another Nature . And it must not be ouer-passed heere , that our Sauiour doth not say , The Conuersion of a Sinner is knowne in Heauen , by which might bee employed an ordinarie course , for the Conuersion of euery Sinner : but thus , At the Conuersion of a Sinner there is ioy in Heauen . As if it had beene said , Then when it is made knowne vnto them : as if it were not ordinarie or Naturall for them to know it , but vpon Information . Howsoeuer , we are yet but vpon , Vncertainties . Peraduentures , are our greatest , and vtmost Resolutions . Wee are directed for common course of Life against common sense and reason , vnto extraordinarie passages , and addresses . To relie vpon some stay : wee cannot tell what . Bid goe call vpon some Angell , to the purpose , that Hee may impart our petition vnto some Saint : which Saint doth communicate it to the blessed Virgin : and she obtaine it by intreatie , though once it was by command of her Son . A long Circumduction with much adoe : before all can be dispatched , I may bee vndone . I may perish , before my case come to knowledge or scanning , whereas , Call vpon me ▪ is a shorter way , I am sure : a surer course , I dare auow , where instantly I may be heard and deliuered at my Call , if not ad voluntatem as I would : yet ad salutem , for the best , in time of trouble , and my most and surest aduantage .

From hence they go on , Therefore , since this will not serue , from Angelicall they flye to diuine Reuelation . to haue moe strings vnto their bow , vnto diuine Reuelation , that God imparteth vnto the Saints in Heauen , the necessities and extremities , the Prayers and Desires of men vpon Earth , at that very instant , in which men make them in any vrgency any way . No otherwise then the Prophets vnderstood things to come : or knew the thoughts of men , and secret actions , otherwise vndiscernable because performed in priuate , and vpon the absence of the parties made acquainted with them . This is not apertissima sententia Augustini , as Bellarmine fableth . For then he should resolue for it and pitch vpon it , which hee doth not , Lib. de Cura pro mortuis , cap. 15. but only reciteth it , one amongst other probable and coniectural means , wherby Saints departed may be supposed to come to vnderstand some of the actions of the liuing . Poscunt etiam spiritus mortuorum , A thing both vncertaine , aliqua eorum quae hic aguntur , quae necessarium est eos nosse , & quae necessarium non est eos non nosse , non solùm praeterita vel praesentia , verumetiam futura , spiritu Deireuelante cognoscere . The soules of the dead 〈◊〉 also vnderstand somewhat that is done amongst vs on Earth , which it is necessary they should know , and not be ignorant of , not only things that are past or present , but also what is to come . He saith no more but possunt , They may peraduenture , and Aliqua somethings , we know not what , which is nothing to our Prayers certainly , where , or whensoeuer we do make them vnto Him . Such things as Predictions Propheticall , and other such like extraordinary Donations , are to some only : at some times : in some cases : to some ends , to men and Angels : to men by Angels ; as Saint Augustine doth affirme , and that apertè in this passage . Non omnes homines , sed Prophetae , dum hic viuebant , cognoscebant . Nec ipsi omnia , And weake ▪ sed quae illis esse reuelanda , Dei prouidentia iudicabat . A very weake support to beare so great a weight as doth follow Inuocation . Vnlesse in this case it be particularly auouched , that God must discouer all things in heauen and in earth , vnto men departed , and to Angels ordinarily at all times in all places without priuiledge or exception . So that , as Pinellus auouched for the formes of all things , they haue knowledge omniscious with this alone difference ; And absurde . Saints & Angels are omniscious , but by communication : God is originally , and not from others . A thing absurd in Dispensation , if it were true otherwise , God communicateth perfections , his perfections vnto his Creatures : but it is only de suis : a part and portion befitting the condition and proportion of the Donee , not answering the abilitie and sufficiencie of the Donor . It is not sua : All that he hath : All Power , all Wisdome , Knowledge , and Vnderstanding of all things to all purposes . For nothing doth or can communicate to other , Extremum potentiae , all it hath . But were it fit , conuenient , or possible for the Donor so to indow ; yet it is not possible for the Donee so to receiue . For it is a ruled case in Nature and in Grace both , Quicquid recipitur , ad modum recipientis recipitur , as the Donee , can receiue it : not as the Donor could conferre it . They follow the Lambe whithersoeuer bee goeth . So they may be of his Court , not of his Counsell . Amici sunt agni : They are indeed and must be esteemed the Lambes friends . But neuer was any Friend so entire : Neuer yet Fauourite had that Interest , as to reuerse that Dictate of Reason , Wisdome and State , Secreta mea mihi , Reserued Secrets are for my selfe . Many Secrets were hid euen from the Angels : and not made manifest , but by the euent , in & by the Church euen vnto them : And are they not yet in statu quo ? for ordinary knowledge howsoeuer : for extraordinary is not to purpose , will not serue the turne . Or if it were , and would ; yet then all things must bee the obiect of this extrauagant vnderstanding : or how come these into Interlope alone , Our Prayers and Petitions vnto the Saints !

It is not , it cannot bee resolued how by any Reuelation from God ordinarily this is or can bee a setled truth . And yet if it cannot ordinarily be done : they fly fur●her to the glasse of the Deitie . Nor how by any Naturall Power or abilitie in themselues , they may bee raised vp vnto so high a pitch : therefore lastly as Ad anchoram sacram in tempestate , they haue recourse vnto their Morning knowledge in verbo , in the Essence of God , in the Glasse of the Deitie which must beare all . The Glasse of the Deitie a quaint and very plausible conceit . Qua cognoscitur verbum , & relucentia in verbo , the very Destina of this Doctrine according to the practice in the Church of Rome : Qui videt videntem omnia , is videt omnia , is the Position : in which God is made and supposed a glasse , by way of resemblance , as representing vnto the beholders view , somewhat no doubt : but what , or how much wee cannot say ; nor they assure vs . But to the point : In things of God , For so they 〈◊〉 our knowledge in Heauen ▪ being of an higher streine then the Capacity of man , we must not talke at randome , according to our owne Fancie , nor measure the Almightie in himselfe , as wee please , or in his Actions , according to the poore scantling of humane passages , or abilitie . Therefore Quo Warranto , doe they talke thus of God , or represent vnto vs the glasse of the Deitie ? Who taught him to speake so ▪ that spake so first ; Gregorie , or who euer was the author of it ? In the language of Ashdod , they may babble so : but they talke not in this manner in the tongue of Canaan . The Glasse must bee in this World , if any bee at all . Men liuing looke into the Glasse , if any doe . For here wee beholde as in a glasse : There , and then , our Beholding is reuealedly , When men on Earth doe rather behold as in a glasse . and Face to face ; vnlesse a glasse bee no glasse : or Saint Pauls opposition of Termes and Times bee false , or not to purpose .

Secondly , the condition of a Glasse is , wee know , Neither can it agree with the condition of a glasse : which represents all before it . to expresse and represent vnto the beholder , All , whatsoeuer is before the Glasse . But Gods Perfection is such , that in Him are comprehended 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , What Is , Was , or Shall bee hereafter . So that Videns videntem omnia videt omnia . It cannot bee otherwise , but that Hee who seeth God , seeth whatsoeuer is in God . Say you so ? And that Essentially , and comprehensiuely ? Then man is made like vnto the most high : God seeth from euerlasting to euerlasting , and so by this rule must all his Saints see . In which regard , Since something in that 〈◊〉 is 〈…〉 all the Angels , I wonder Saint Paul durst auow , That the mysteries of our most holy Faith , were not knowne vnto Angels from the beginning , but by reuelation from the Church . And yet those mysteries were euer in that Glasse , as being resolued on in the purpose and counsell of God , not secret , from the beginning . And the Angels , from the first instant of their Creation , especially confirmed in Grace , did euer indeclineably , Behold the face of God in glory . And how can this Conclusion of Christ Iesus stand firme , But of that day and houre , the day of Doome , knoweth no man , no not the Angels in Heauen : it being to bee receiued as an Eternall truth , That hee who seeth him , that seeth all things , doth also in and with , and by Him see all things ? For , is the Day resolued on in his Counsell ? Doth God Himselfe know when it shall bee ? No● can it without absurdi●i● and 〈◊〉 be granted , that all things are 〈◊〉 . Why then Saints and Angels are therewith acquainted , that read and behold in Him , as in a glasse , whatsoeuer is Reconditum , in his most secret thoughts .

I adde , it is absolute absurditie , nay flat impietie , to tie God Almighty , and therefore most free , vnto a fatall concatenation of Causes . Thus they doe in this case , or else , nor do they , nor say they any thing to purpose . There is a twofold glasse , if yet they needs will insist vpon , and prattle of a Glasse : at least all things are , which in effect is the same , to the same purpose , in a twofold difference and disposition . Naturall , and so necessitated : or voluntarie , and so free Agents are they all . Naturall Agents worke , and cannot chuse but worke alwayes , at all times , in the same sort , being not diuersly applied vnto Patients . The Sun being risen , giueth light , and cannot chuse but giue light vnto the world . The Fire burneth alway , and cannot chuse but burne combustible matter put vnto it . For , if they make it a voluntary glasses nothing is reuealed but at his pleasure . But voluntary Agents not so . They Can and Cannot worke at pleasure . They suspend their Actions , if they will : and dispense and dispose them according vnto Time , Place , Occasion . It was a prophane Paganicall conceit , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Calaber . that God was also subiect vnto fatall necessitie and decrees , and hissed out , with indignation by the wisest of them . For wee know , and are assured , not only Christians , but euen men indued with common sense and reason , that God of all Agents , is most free : As being absolute of himselfe alone , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , no way depending vpon any ; no way beholding to another . He can then suspend his Actions as he will , in reuealing and concealing what he pleaseth : To , and from whom he will and pleaseth . What he doth conceale : how much he doth discouer of Himselfe vnto others , they must first assure , that from the Morning knowledge of Saints & holy Angels , in the glasse of the Deitie , goe about to perswade vnto Inuocation , and to establish Intercession of Saints . Vnlesse , and vntill they can doe this , it is idle to talke of the glasse of the Deity , in which all Gods Counsels and Actions are beheld : or the Saints looking and prying into that glasse , in which they may view and surueigh all his counsels . Est enim verbum speculum voluntarium , saith Biel most truly , ostendens , videnti se , quantum voluerit , non autem quantum relucet . And Thomas farther , 1. par. qu. 12. artic. 8. Cum nullus intellectus creatus illum comprehendat , non potest in ipso videre , omnia quae facit vel facere potest . Sed vel plura vel pauciora , secundàm quod perfectius vel imperfectius eum videt . Enough to breake in pieces this fancie of a glasse .

And , if they make it a naturall glasse : ye● , who shall giue the beholder , as sufficient capacity , 〈◊〉 glasse is of continen●● . And yet farther , to condescend to that which must not be granted , because it is absurd , false , and impious , that God is not a Voluntary , but a Naturall glasse : yet euen then , and so , are they neuer a whit the neerer by looking into , or staring vpon that glasse , to vnderstand whatsoeuer may concerne this case , vnlesse that Obiectum be adaequatum , the Beholder be of as great capacitie , as the Glasse is of continencie , which He beholdeth . Suppose a glasse as wide , large , and spacious as all Europe , which naturally may and doth represent all that part of the world ; yet what is that to mee for my information , for businesse of Spaine , Norway , or Constantinople , vnlesse my sight , not able to reach in plano , vnto all parts of Europe , nay not of England , a point of Europe , could take a perfect , and thorough view of each part and corner of the glasse , so much more large and spacious , then that one not very big Country is ; Each finite Subsistance , hath a quousque , for magnitude , durance , and perfection ; thither it may come , but go no iot farther . In the Glasse of the Deitie , if there bee imagined such a glasse , there are Actus , and ordines Hierarchici , and of Subordination , according to capacitie , capabilitie , merit , disposition : or else the blessed Virgin hath but an equall portion with ordinary people : S. Paul no more aduancement in Glory , then he whose Acts burne , and is himselfe scarce saued by fire . And yet wee know there are vix saluati : there are Porters at the house of God ; and such as are admitted , ad mensam , ad dextras , ad sinistras . But those that haue most , and deepest insight , greatest shares , all come short of that large and immensurable dimensum , to be made partakers of all the secrets of God , nay to know the thoughts or praiers of men , which they must vnderstand , and that ordinarily too , or how can a man say to them , Pray for mee ? Nay , vnlesse I doe know their nice dimensum , how can I , or any one say , Pray for mee ? It may be that Saints part and portion whom I implore , vnto whom I make Petition , is not so large , of such capabilitie nor extent , as is requisite , as anothers is . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Angels behold what they can behold and see , and Archangels as much as they are capable of , each according vnto his owne measure and scantling ; For the Angels may see mu●h : al●hey cannot . but euery one , and all short of this degree and measure , to know and vnderstand all things ordinarily . Bellarmine in this point , hath brought an argument , that , nor Himselfe , nor any for Him , haue or will euer bee able to answere . If the Saints need at any time any new Reuelation , and haue not the Abilitie and Sufficiencie at once from God , & that at the instant of their admittance into Glory , the Church were too bold , so hand ouerhead , to implore them all , or say vnto any one of them , Ora pro me . but first in Reason and Congruitie should Call vpon God , to reueale and make knowen our Prayers vnto them . Vpon which wee inferre , They are too ●old . For the Church is vniustly made accessory therto : For their Abilitie is not absolute at the first , but receiueth an accesse euer day by day , vntill the Consummation of all by Christ .

If for instance , the glory of Saint Paul doth increase daily in heauen , as by meanes of his workes remaining to posterity , the glory of God , the effects of his grace , the bounds of the Church are increased daily . The reward of Saint Paul must be answerable to it , and receiue an addition , as their owne Schooles doe determine euery day . Nor had hee his dimensum , or portion at first . So then , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Adieu fine fiction of the Glasse of the Deity , it is but a prety toy to play withall . Adieu no lesse inuocation of Saints , especially built vp from that fiction , a foregery inuented to delude men withall , to teach them to rely vpon a reed of Egypt , and lose faire and sure possibilities , nay certainties sure otherwhere . A fiction cast off , if I well remember , for at this instant I haue not the book by me , by Hugo a Victore , long agoe .

Can that be sure or well built for others to relye vpon , and flie vnto , where the Master builders of Babel , not to say Bezaleels , are confounded , and in distraction among themselues ? the Schoolemen I meane , one with another . Cognitio is all . Saints Intercessors must first know , and be acquainted with our necessities , before they can giue vs helpe or assistance . And before they can know it , wee must acquaint them with what they must know . Now , de modo quo cognoscant ▪ How and in what sort , these holy Saints and Angels , albeit they behold , and that indeclinably Gods face in glory , doe see also and know other things beside God , Non conuenit inter omnes , saith Pinello . And yet it must conuenire , and inter omnes too , or we must goe seeke for Patrons in aduersitie , And if wee doubt whether they can see our wants : we may well doubt whether they can helpe them . hauing no scriptum est for our warrant , and what is tradition not accorded ? In Gods Precepts and Tendries of beleefe , I will subiect , and captiuate my enquiring into plaine beleefe , and be content though I can but know 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 that so it is : because he hath said it : though he hath not discouered 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 what it is , nor I can reach vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , wherefore it is . But in that which is not tendred vnder so high commanding forme , as Beleeue th●s and true , it is good wisedome to play the Sceptick a while , and to enquire , An , & cursit , before Assent , consent , and full approbation bee yeelded thereunto . Pinellus relateth it , vpon his word I take it , that Occam , Gab●el and Iohn Maior , doe positiuely affirme that Saints departed and with God , And how many be there that doubt of that 〈◊〉 . behold no creature at all in verbo per visionem beatisicam : Much lesse in all probability , the needs and necessities , the votes and petitions , the cryes and complaints and seuerall desires of men vpon earth , to be manifested and made knowne vnto them , but by other , I know not what , notions , meanes , and reuelations . Catetan , Soto , and Durand hee saith , Flye for sati●faction , vnto particular reuelations . The glasse of the Deity they vtterly deny , affirming it assuredly , and tantum non de side , that Saints behold nothing at all in the diuine Essence . Bellarmine casteth off these their reuelations as incredible and improbable . Scotus and Occam will not be beholding vnto that imagined glasse wee speake of : because , as Gabriel Biel relateth it of them , they are naturally indowed , Distinctè & intuitiué cognoscere cogitationes aliorum : That is , they are set downe in the throne of God himselfe , Almighty and Omniscious , who was wont to challenge it as his owne peculiar , Ego Dominus scrutans renes : and had it giuen him without all contradiction , 2 Paralip . v● . Tu solus nosti corda filiorum hominum . And againe , hee seeth from euerlasting to euerlasting , and vnderstandeth our thoughts long before . The glosse vpon Esay 63. resolueth it , that Mortui etiam sancti , nesciunt quid agunt viui : etiam ipsorum silij : The dead , though Saints in heauen , and liuing there with God , vnderstand not at all , what men that liue vpon earth doe . No , not , though they be their owne children , of whom they haue , in all probability , a more speciall care . Thus he : expounding that sentence of the Prophet , vers. xvj . Doubtlesse thou art our Father , though Abraham know vs not : and Israel take no notice of vs . Which exposition , there the Author of that Glosse , Biell telleth vs , did borrow , as indeed he did from Saint Augustine . And lastly , let them consider what consequence will insue vpon this resolution of Saint Thomas : in 1 par. quest. 12. ar. S. in respons ad 4. Inuocatio est de rebus singularibus . Sed talia non faciunt ad perfectionem intellectus Angelici vel beati . Non ergo illum ●ntellectum habent . This is no obiection but his owne resolution . Where such diuersity and inconstancy is , what assurance can men haue to relie vpon the intercession of Saints , not yet determined how , or whether it may be had and obtained or not ?

Saint Augustine in his fourth Tome . Lib. de Curâ pro mortuis cap. 13. discourseth vpon this point at large . Si rebus viuentium interessent animae mortuorum . If the soules of the departed were present with , or interessed in the affaires of the liuing : and if they did really and indeed discourse with vs , then when we behold them in our sleepe : my most deere and louing mother would in no case leaue me now , who in her life time followed me vp and downe , by Land and Sea , to the intent shee might liue with me continually . For God defend , that shee now in blisse , should be more auerse or cruell then when she liued . Beleeue me , were I greeued at any time , or perplexed : it cannot enter into my thoughts otherwise , but that shee would visit and comfort her distressed sonne ; whom sometime she loued with such tender affection , as shee could not indure to behold him heauy . But questionlesse it is true which the holy Psalmist saith , when my father and my mother forsooke me , the Lord tooke me vp . If so bee then our Parents forsake vs in death , how can they bee present or interessed in our cares or affaires , any way ? And if our Parents haue then no such interest in vs , who are the dead beside that can tell what wee doe ? how , or wherewithall we are distressed ? The Prophet Esay saith , For thou art our Father , though Abraham know vs not : and though Israel take no notice of vs . If so great and famous Patriarchs , as Abraham and Iacob , did not vnderstand , how the world went with their posterity , the people that came from their loynes , how can it be that men deceased should at all take any notice of the state , or intermeddle with assisting men aliue on earth ? Thus that learned and most iudicious Augustine discourseth to the point . Who yet farther enforceth the truth of this position from the promise made by God vnto that good King Iosias , viz. That he should be gathered vnto his fathers in peace , and not see the destruction of Ierusalem , nor the plagues that were to come vpon that people . Which promise had beene to no purpose at all , as hee well inferreth , Si post mortem sentiant , quaecum que in vitâ humanâ calamitates contingunt . Bellarmine he answereth nothing to purpose : nor doth himselfe , I suppose , know what , viz. That the meaning of S. Augustine is ; The Saints departed , do not conuerse with men here naturally , that is , as hee expoundeth himselfe , sicut faciebant , cum hic vinerent . That such an addle and senselesse answere should drop from the mouth of such a Master in Israel ! or that hee should beare vs in hand Saint Augustine would so play the child in earnest , as to argue the case , That dead men are not aliue when they are dead , That is , doe not conuerse with men then , as sometime they did , while yet they liued , naturally ? Though Bellarmine be disposed thus to toy and t●flle , S. Augustine meant seriously , that the soules departed are not interessed at all , doe know nothing at all of the passages and affaires in the world : as his whole discourse : the instance of his mother , the example of Iosiah well declareth . If by naturally , he meant ordinarily , as it seemeth he would haue done , if he durst haue touched it , because he streight opposeth supernaturall interest thereunto : it is most true , that Saint Augustine doth resolue , that ordinarily they meddle not at all , know nothing at all of our affaires , and no other intercourse betwixt them and vs , Vnlesse by some extraordinary dispensation . will hold vp Inuocation then this naturall , and ordinary . He granteth , and I subscribe to his opinion , that some Saints may extraordinarily , at sometimes , by speciall dispensation take notice of some things , and be assistants in some cases , vnto some particular persons , Bellarmine himselfe bringeth that out of S. Augustine which implyeth that thus he should haue said , enough to discouer his owne folly . Non ideò putandum est , vivorum rebus quoslibet interesse posse desuntos , quoniam quibusdam sanandis vel adiu vandis Martyres adsunt . Sed ideò potius est intelligendum , quod per diuinam potentiam , Martyres vivorum rebus intersint quon●am defuncti per naturam propriam , viuorum rebus interesse non possunt . This case is put by speciall dispensation . Put for Martyes onely ; and not for all holy Saints departed . Put as a speciall act of Gods omnipotency : therefore ill and falsely applyed vnto ordinary practice for all Saints departed : and that speciall dispensation made a common course of ordinary practise . Thus like S●s●phus , he altereth and changeth the formes , the stampes , and markes of things , and that all to no purpose , vnlesse speciall acts of Diuine Omnipotency be made common rules of action in course of Piety , and intercourse betwixt God and Man .

●ut ordinarily 〈…〉 . Yet well fare Hugo de sancto Victore , who concludeth this question thus , as B●el setteth it downe . Many make question whether Saints departed doe heare the prayers made vnto them , yea or no. Whether it bee possible that Petitioners suites should come vnto their notice and vnderstanding . Certainly , it is no very easie matter to set downe a conclusion resolute in questions of this nature . For how can we be ascertained and resolued in our knowledge concerning them , we being not able to conceiue nor find out , what knowledge they haue of vs and our affaires , and by what meanes they attaine vnto it ? This is most sure and certaine , that the souls of the Righteous residing with God , in the secret place of Diuine contemplation , where they both doe see God , and haue so farre forth information of things done abroad , as may only extend to aduance and augment their own ioy , & inlarge their assistance tendred vnto vs . He meaneth in generall , not in particular to this man o● that . Hetherto little aduantage is for Inuocation : and no matter : For marke what followeth : We desire Intercessors with God , in our need . And what wilt thou more ? Dost thou peraduenture feare , that happily they will not pray for thee , whose practice is to pray perpetually ? How can it then be that they should not pray for thee ; if thou prayest for thy selfe , who yet cease not praying when thou dost desist ? But thou wilt reply : If they heare me not , I doe but wast words in vaine , in making Intercession vnto them , that doe neither heare nor yet vnderstand . Be it so : Saints heare not the words of those that call vnto them . Well : nor is it pertinent vnto their blessed estate , to be made acquainted with what is done on earth . Admit that they doe not heare at all . Neither , whether they doe , o● doe not 〈…〉 . Doth not God therefore heare ? If hee heare thee , why art thou solicitous then what they heare , and how much they heare , seeing it is most certaine that God heareth vnto whom thou prayest ? he seeth thy humility , and will reward thy Piety and Deuotion . In effect , as if it were concluded by him . It is no materiall thing or of necessity to pray vnto Saints .

Not the ten●t any point of faith : Be it then vnto vs as indeed it is not , No point of Faith , but meerely brought in out of some priuate affect●ons , without any warrant any way more , then incertainties and peraduentures , that Saints departed , But in 〈…〉 . are to be called vnto for Aduocates and Assistants in time of trouble , or howsoeuer . Be it at most a point of Indifferency , to be beleeued in opinion , or else reiected ; but in practice ordinary , a point of flat foolery to call vpon them , In 〈◊〉 , a point of fooly . who are peraduenture Saints , peraduenture not . It may be at some time , it may be not , inabled or disposed , wee cannot tell , how or how farre ; to vnderstand our Petitions and our Prayers ; to accept , and accommodate our desires . I suppose the man that vnderstandeth himselfe , being in need , and in necessity , will in his exigent necessity , ( where euer bis dat qui citò dat , ) not goe so farre about the bush : and that on peraduentures will aduenture Life and State vpon vncertainties . Iamblychus a Pagan will stout him for it , whose iudgment was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Men make themselues fooles , and deserue to be laughed at , that aske good things otherwhere then at Gods hands , who is able and willing to come at call : to heare and deliuer in time of trouble . Who beside his goodnesse in preuenting grace , that hee willeth vs to call , before he was intreated , hath giuen direction in most louing inuitation : For immediate accesse call vpon me : thou thy selfe call vpon me , without any aduocate at all , or mediator , or any assistant for intercession : As if Inuocation of Saints were but idle .

Last of all they goe to practice and imitation , Yet is it mainly vrged from the practice of ancient times . thether they appeale : and tell vs of vse in being long agoe : produce vs Precedents in ancient times , and tradition without the memory of man . The Fathers did so in the Primitiue times : Et vir●s magno , sequi est penè sapere . Since that , God himselfe hath ratified the custome , and confirmed it by miracles from heauen ; and therefore wee may safely doe , why not , as they haue done before , and as God would haue vs to doe , by speciall warrant .

This perswasion is a potent one I confesse indeed with ordinary men in course of life : But that practice not squared by a perfect rule . because we liue by practice and not by precept : are directed by that which men doe , rather then by that which men should doe . But first we might answere by S. Augustines rule in point of Precedence and example : where the practices of Superiors in common course doe become rules of action vnto Inferiors : and that which hath sometime been done so or so , is tendred to be done so perpetually : viz. A sanctis accipe perfectis exemplum . If needes you will goe to it by practice , set downe for a rule , for to follow that which is of perfection indeed : as being squared by a perfect rule . Goe take in Precedents deriued from perfect men . Now that is to doe as Moses was commanded : To follow the patterne shewed him in the mount . That is to doe after the rule directed and shewed vnto him from heauen . The which rule is , Call vpon me : and the practice according vnto that rule , ●or the rule is here contrary to their practice . of those men that in the mount haue talked with God , and followed the patterne shewed them there . Thus he that was the Father of all the faithful . Thus the eldest of the promised seed : thus hee that preuailed with God Almighty : thus the man that spake with Him in the bush , And we haue practice ancient 〈◊〉 , and 〈◊〉 to that rule . and saw the face of his Creator . So all descending downwards , righteous men & Prophets , famous & honorable in their time , who called vpon Me , the Lord alone , and neuer vpon any but on Me. This ancient vniuersall practice in Israel , their successors in time and place , the Apostles of the Lamb , haue commended vnto the Church by word and example euermore . Who neuer in her best parts and purest times presumed to transpose the ancient fixed bounds . If that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the men that came after these in time , and therefore in honour and account come farre short of them , haue altered the language once spoken in the land , and babled in an vnknowne tongue , We haue no such custome , nor the Church of God . The best of their Compeeres , the principall and flower of the sonnes of Seth , I meane those seruants of Abraham , armed at all points , against the enemies of Christ , the three hundred and thirty in the Councell of Nice , haue put a word in our mouthes , which may serue as an answer to all obiections whatsoeuer , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Let things continue as they were long agoe in the eldest times : In vse and practice from the beginning . Innouations grow in , most-what vpon the by , and in processe of time it commeth to passe , that Exempla fiunt quae esse facinora desierunt .

But I will not now vse this aduantage here , And , after them the practice and doctrine of the Fathers , if rightly vnderstood , is not much against it . especially against men of such rancke and reckning , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the men deserue farre better words and vsage then so ; hauing beene all famous in their generations and such as haue left a name behind them . And therefore with awfull respect vnto the persons and place , I answere , first in generall , that their words are not to be taken aduantageously , nor cited for assertions resolued , which were neuer meant nor intended for so peremptory conclusions , as are in these cases deduced from them . We should weigh and consider , what and how we reade in the writings of the Fathers touching points in Controuersie at this day . Non eadem , de ijsdem , ab eodem dicuntur , vpon experience we finde it , That the same man of the same thing , speaketh differently , in diuers places : With some imputation perhaps of vncertainty and contradiction , yet not deserued : if we consider diuers and different circumstances . In heat of Opposition , by way of contention , some things fall from them now and then , For many things beyond their iudgement may fall from them in heat of disputation . which will not hold weight at the beame of the Sanctuary , and the men that take aduantage at them in one point , will soone fall off from them in another . S. Hierome is much in this kinde , according to the vehement cholericke nature and disposition of the man . Secondly , in publike and popular collations very often to mooue affection , Or popular discourse . and gaine action in point of practique Piety , they lauish by way of exaggeration , in large hyperbolies & amplifications . So the Grecian Homelists , & Chrysostome especially aboue them all : not in this , but in many other passages also . Thirdly , much is found in them , Or related ex opinione 〈…〉 . of which they are reporters , & no more : they relate vnto vs the opinions of other and not their owne : They tell vs what was done , but doe not entermeddle by way of censure or opinion for their parts . All these when they speake positiue diuinity indeed , & conclude things de side dogmatically , their Positions then run in another tone , which giueth , though vniustly , occasion of suspition of contradiction , if men doe not consider their sayings perpensedly , or be disposed to take aduantage couertly . A case to be exemplified , as shall appeare in the present question afterwards .

Againe , it is a point considerable , how many of those Ancients , And in many things they are mistaken , or belyed of those that produce them . that either are , or else may be produced by the Opposites for Patrons and Abettors , of Intercession and Mediation by Saints , could in no case condescend vnto this conceit , their Positiue grounds and resolutions being direct for the cleane contrary and flat opposite opinion to be true : viz. That they had no interest at all in GOD ; nor yet meanes or possibility to commence any such suite vnto him for themselues , much lesse for others . It is confessed by the grand Dictator of Controuersies , that the Patriarchs and Prophets were not inuocated of olde , vnder and before the Law , as the Apostles , Martyrs , and holy Saints were after the Law : in regard that Christ was not then come in the flesh , nor yet they in statu , quo anon . For vntill he came , and in Death descended , and deliuered them thence , they were conclusi in carcere , shut vp in Limbo , a region of Hell , and did not enioy the presence of God in glory , nor come neere to put vp any suites vnto him : Againe ▪ it is by him supposed a chiefe cause , why many deny Inuocation of Saints , Heretiques , as hee calleth them , old and new , because that they , both are and haue beene in that error , that as yet they are in atrijs , attending in the Porch or base Court abroad , not admitted to the presence of the Alm●ghty . If things stand thus , as hee would haue them , then vpon supposition of the premises , many ancient Fathers in the Primitiue Church , called to be witnesses for practice of Intercession of Saints , doe in their intention say nothing to purpose ; cannot indeed bee produced for witnesses in the point , but are made to speake what they neuer thought , what they could not thinke , being men knowne and confessed to haue held this opinion , that the Soules of the Righteous departed hence , are not yet with God , enioying his Presence , and beholding his face in Glory ; but are in Atrijs & in vestibulo domus Dei , and in those Repositorijs , seated God knoweth where , expecting the full accomplishment of their consummation in Christ ; in the day of the retribution of the Righteous . This being supposed , needes 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that hope of great helpe and assistance from them , by so free accesse , and representation of our Prayers vnto God , as these men talke of ; from those , who could not euen in their owne opinions , intimate their owne suites vnto God , in presence representatiuely , being not admitted thither where hee had his residence , not comming to looke into the Glasse of the Deity : For they were , it is taught , in Limbo , a verge of Hell , farre enough remote from God and Heauen . Thus it is determined by him that can tell , Haec quaestio fundamentum est omnium aliarum , ( namely , concerning the honour due and done vnto them : Canonization of them , Assistance from and by them , ) an Sanctorum animae Deum videant , & vere beatae s●nt ante diem iudi●ij . So that Irenaeus , the Author of the Questions vnder Iustine Martyrs name : Tertullian , Origen , Hillary , Chrysostome , Theodoret , and others , must be spunged out from the list and Catalogue of Assertors of this point , The Saints departed , may profitably be inuoked .

Farther , it may be noted in this generall view , that in many passages of the Ancients , And lastly , in many thin●● they are m●●rly Rhetoricall . pretended for this particular : those Rethoricall Figures , Prosopopeyes , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and Compellations of holy Saints and Martyrs , to be found in the Panegyricall Orations of the Greeke Fathers , especially , are directed , not at large to any Saint or blessed soule , as to parties vnknowne , Specially speaking to Saints , supposed to haue more particular int●lli●ence , and care of them . without our acquaintance , but onely to such as had , or be supposed to haue had , some more speciall and reserued reason of intirenesse , presence , assistance , or intelligence with them , then others had , as interessed in the State , Calling , Profession , Place , Life , and manner of Conuersation of the Petitioners , or directed vnto such as were their familiars and acquainted in this life : and so more priuate and peculiarly addicted vnto them in Heauen . Who peraduenture might , as hath beene said , through peculiar disp●nsa●ion , be very carefull of their good , intend their necessities and behoofe : and through that peculiar dispensation , attend the occasions sometime of their acquaintance , according to that practice and opinion in vse , specified in that compact betwixt Cyprian and Cornelius Bishop of Rome . These generall Obseruations , These f●●e obseruations may helpe vs in the allegation of the texts of Father . may be exemplified in the particular allegations of texts of Fathers ; either representatiuely for the body of the Church in Councels : or else particularly in their priuate writings and allegations ; which are not demonstrations of the Church Doctrine in those times , but onely priuate opinions of some men , deliuered obiter , and vpon the by , without any contestation at all ; or violence for the maintayning of them . Which seuerally perswade not , but being laid together , if they speake one thing , and runne all one way , may not be lightly reiected or cast off : Nam quae non prosunt singula , multa invant . Therefore to ioyne issue , let vs try their force , and see of what efficacy they are of to perswade to a generall opinion and beliefe .

Dionysius Areopagita leadeth the Ring ( as he is cited by the great Master of Controuersies ) in his 7. Chapter of the Church-Hierarchy , See it first in Dien . Ar. Idem sit , acsi sole suos radios sanis elargiente , oculis , sibi quis oculos eruens , solaris luminis particeps fieri postulat . Sic impossibilium superfluâ spe ille suspensus est , qui sanctorum flagitat preces , & Naturae ipsorum consentaneus , sacras operationes abigit . I will take no exception to the person of this witnesse ; Whose Testimony , if it be good , let him passe for an honest legall man , though hee be generally , anciently , and probably also suspected for a counterfeit , and held insufficient to giue any witnesse in vpon euidence of Record . To the witnesse and testimony which he giueth , I answere . Here is no mention of the practice : nor yet Iustification for the rule of Invocation of Saints . Nay , rather that practice , in generall or particular , is disallowed , as vnprofitable , because vsed in a Subiect that is impossible . Flagitare preces Sanctorum , is superfluous , because the hope of helpe from them is impossible . It is , saith he , as if a man that hath no eyes , should expect or desire to be enlightened from the beames of the Sunne , which shineth indeed forth vnto them that are api nati , fitted to receiue it , and capable of it . Nor can the allegation bee aduantaged any way , because Sani , are comforted and refreshed by the light of the Sunne , which indeed shineth vnto those that are capable of it : For it is confessed , to hold proportion there with , that the Saints departed , doe in generall pray for the Estate of the Church militant vpon Earth : May well be applyed against them . for the state and necessity of particular Churches , or priuate men their friends , with which they were acquainted in time of life . That is , That the Sunne indeed sheddeth , and casteth beames abroad . But the question is of particular Intercession for any man : that is , of applications of those beames of the Sunne , to the eyes of the blinde in vaine , and without profit , which are pleasant and profitable to him that hath his sight . Thus this Testimony , as it lyeth in the body of those Controuersies , is pregnant against the Pleaders of it . But farther , in the Deposition subscribed with his owne hand , And , it cannot make for them , if Sancti be so vnderstood , as he meant it . Areopagita speaketh a farre off , and to another purpose . Sancti in Dionysius Language , are not Defuncti , or Regnantes with Christ , as the Controuerser supposeth : but the word is to be taken according to the phrase of those most ancient times . So Saints , in Saint Paul , are not Saint Stephen , Saint Iames , and such as they , Then dead : The phrase is not once , I suppose in him that way : but men then aliue in the bosome of the Church ; parts and members of the Church militant . The Saints in Dionysius answerably were such holy men as serued at the Altar ; as the last words in the Testimony , as it is laid downe there , might very well haue informed him : Et Naturae ipsorum consentaneas sacras operationes abigit . In effect , Will not regard , or partake of the Doctrine and instruction which they affoord him , And the latter words restored to their true construction . or of the Sacraments which they minister vnto him . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . In neglect and disregard of the gifts of God ; and in breach of his Commandements . Againe , I adde , that Bellarmines eyes were not in his head , when hee tooke a view of the Testimony of Dionysius ; or else hee tooke vp the witnesse from some Knight of the post , who was ready to say any thing for his owne aduantage . For the whole discourse of Dionysius in that Section is concerning Prayer for the dead , not vnto them : for their refreshing and consolation ; And the occasion considered , wherupon Dion . spake them . not for their actuall assistance and reliefe . Reader doe but goe view the Euidence , and tell me if the alleager be not either much to seeke , or much more too blame : a very silly man , or a sly Sophist , and very Colluder in the point in question .

Another & a better Euidence is of those times , as ancient , See 〈◊〉 again● 〈…〉 . and more authenticke witnesse , then Dionysius ; a legall man , and without exception any way . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . I salute that beloued and much affected name , whom , Oh might I see , placed in my seate , then when I am with Christ , enioying Heauen . Hee meaneth Hero , a Deacon of the Church of Antioch , and Successor to himselfe in that See . Which speech had not passed doubtlesse from that holy man , had hee not beene perswaded that the dead with Christ , had notice of , and were interessed in the affaires of the liuing in this World . I grant this was his iudgement or opinion : But yet for all that , this is nothing to purpose . For Ignatius doth not will Hero , Who in that which they alledge , desires onely to know his Successor , and that by special dispensation . or his people of Antioch , to call vnto him after death : no , nor yet assure Hero he would pray for him . The most that we can resolue of , is this , that hee should know him to be his Successor , and take notice of him in his Spirit . And that this also by speciall dispensation . For saith he , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : I would to God I might see him , that is , be permitted to see him , as if it were not ordinary : For then hee needed not haue so wished , if he could not choose but see , and so take notice of him . It is granted that Saints by speciall dispensation , may take notice and care , and patronage in some speciall Actions , of some speciall men or Societies , in whom they are more neerely interessed , as was Ignatius in the Antiochians . What if I should say , by some naturall , though vnknowne approximation ? this will neuer produce so large an inference , as , therefore , any man may call vpon any Saint , in any place , at any time , for any exigence , or occasion . And it is onely his desire , which proues nothing to their purpose . He that knoweth the Inualidity of a particular , to inferre or conclude a generall , will not much be moued with such allegations . Lastly , I adde , Ignatius doth but wish it ; and a man may wish meere impossibilities .

Irenaeus , as in age , Another Euidence is out of Jrenaeus . so also succeedeth in allegation . In which the man meant to make vs merry , or maruell , in sending Eue the wife of Adam , and Grand-mother of all , dead , A merry one . and being gathered vnto her place and people , so many thousand yeeres before the Virgin Mary was borne , to invocate for Intercession that blessed Virgin : Et sicut Eua seducta est , ( are the words of Irenaeus , ) vt effugeret Deum : ( reade it aufugeret . ) Sic Maria suasa est , obedire Deo : vt Virginis Euae , virgo Maria fieret aduocata . A meere impossibility in Nature , and in Reason , that the Virgin Mary should be Eues Intercessor , yet closed vp with this Epipho●ema , Quid clarius ? because there is the word Aduocata in the Text. Or else a mad one . I may say , Quid clarius , that the man is beside himselfe ? Yet so beside him , and out of him supposed , that rayling Franciscan , answerable to his name , Feuardentius , tooke vp the same allegation , and as hee dreamed it to be Eu●dentissimum , so he scored it also in his margin with this goodly glosse , Beata virgo Maria 〈◊〉 & caeterorum pec●antium aduocata est . I wonder he did not adde this excellent blasphemy thereunto . Euam & peccantes à morte redemit : For so it ensueth in Irenaeus . Et quemadmodum astrictum est morti genus humanum per virginem , soluatur per virginem . Aequalance disposita virginalis inobedientia per virginalem obedientiam . Much more plaine for Redemption , then that former part is for Intercession : yet I hope the man will not fasten such blasphemy vnto so great a worthy in Christs Church , as was Irenaeus . His meaning is this , and no more : That as by Eua sinne came into the World , Valesse the Father be soberly exp●unded . and by sinne death : So by the Virgins meanes , life , and saluation instrumentally : In that shee was that chosen vessell of the holy Ghost , to beare him in her wombe , who by taking flesh of her , redeemed vs from the curse of death . So shee in a sort was cause of Life : and in that sort Mediatrix ; that is , Aduocata here : not Intercessor for Eue , who was so long in time before her ▪ First then the man playeth fast and loose : the Colluder , As by them he is not in a threefold regarded . in the ambiguity of the word Aduocata . Secondly , hee inferreth an impossibility , and therefore an absurdity , that the blessed Virgin Mary did pray for Eue : which must either be in Heauen , and then she needed it not : or in Limbo , and that was but for a time , till Christ in his death descended into Limbo , and led both her , and all other the Fathers thence with himselfe into Heauen . Thirdly , according to the opinon fastened vnto Irenaeus , She is Aduocata to none but to Virgins ; and therefore not promiscuously to be called one of Any : and by those of whom she is Inuocated , to be so called on , onely for a time . For so is the comparison there instituted , betwixt Eua and Maria Virgines .

To him succeedeth Eusebius in the Controuersie , whose testimony speaketh thus , A fourth they haue out of Eusebius . as there it standeth reported , out of 13 booke , 7 Chapter of his Euangelicall preparation . Haec nos quotidiè factitamus , qui verae pietatis milites vt Dei amicos honorantes , monumenta quoque illorum accedimus , votaque ipsis facimus , tanquam viris sanctis , quorum intercessione ad Deum non parum juvari profitemur . I answer , first , Eusebius doth not speake , Where he speakes onely of the generall mediation of the Saints for vs . of particular Inuocation for part●cular Intercession . But of generall Mediation of the Saints in Heauen , who without all question , nor doth any man doubt of it , doe pray for Saints on earth in generall , according to the nature of Communion of Saints , without any Intercession vsed to them , Inuocation of them , by that other moity of the Church militant on earth . Specialy , that of the Martyres . Secondly , Eusebius doth not enlarge his speech to all the Saints departed , of any state or condition whatsoeuer , but , whatsoeuer it be that he saith , he confineth , it vnto Martyres onely , whom he calleth according as the alleager hath it , Verae pietatis milites . Now the case of Martyres and other Saints is not equall or paralell . For in the opinion of the Ancients , that of Martyres was paramount to all other departed with God : as enioying more priuiledges from God , with Christ in glory , by some specially inlarged dispensation , then they the other holy Saints did : as Saint Augustine teacheth in De cura pro mortius , 18 Chapter . Thirdly , to come home to the point indeed , If the place will not rather proue to be corrupted . Bellarmine wilfully corrupteth , or ignorantly citeth , or negligently taketh vp this Text vpon credit , by retaile : For Eusebius hath no such thing as is pretended . His words in his owne language are these : 〈◊〉 ▪ 8● . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . In that Section parallelling the opinion and doctrine of the Pagans , the Doctrine of the Church , and reuealed knowledge of God , from which at first they deriued whatsoeuer they opened in these points , though with much deprauation euery way , he relateth the heathenish opinion touching the soules of these men , who had spent their liues for their countries cause , and dyed manfully in defence thereof . Their happy estate : Their eternall felicity : and from thence descendeth vnto Martyrs in the Church of God in these words . Atque ista quident non incongruè vsurpari poterunt , de morte vtrorum Deo imprimis dilectorum , Quos si verae pietatis milites appellare volueris , non aberrabis . Vnde apud nos in more positum est , illorum adire reconditoria , & ibidem Orationes fundere , animas ipsorum foelices honorare , quae a nobis fiunt summâ cum ratione . Here is no mention of assistance from their intercession : No word of intercession or mediation at all . No praying vnto them to pray for vs : but only praying vnto God . Their God : their God and ours : at their Tombes and Monuments onely , with deuotion : an vsuall practice of those times

The next allegation out of Athanasius , The next is out of Athanasius . may very well come vnder the censure of the Statute of Rogues : if yet we would learne the place of Natiuity , or could tell whether to returne it to be kept . He Canteth indeed to purpose , and speaketh home . Inclina Maria aurem tuam , & ne obliuiscaris populitui . In so much as that , heare Bellarmine with much greater good reason , might haue put to his quid clarius , then to that testimony of Irenaeus . But we know this language was not spoken in Irenaeus's time : nor yet in Athanasius dayes . The inuenter thereof , and Pater fabulae was of much later date . In plaine tearmes : he is a counterfeit that saith it , But so that it wa● n●uer in him 〈…〉 not Athanasius whose name he beareth . I doe not faine this answere of my selfe : I doe not take it vp from the Centuries of Meydenburg . I borrow it not at all from some forlorne Hereticks , or mis-begotten Innouators : it is the direct Censure of those two 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 of Romane Catholique Religion Baronius and Bellarmine : which you may maruell at , but so it is : Of Baronius as Bellarmine relateth : and he saith true ; for so we find it , Anno Christi 49. Sect. 19. Of Bellarmine when he was of better iudgement : and not tyed to point of propugning Inuocation : In his Catalogue of Ecclesiasticall Writers . Let him therefore passe , this Athanasius , I meane , as a branded rogue , seeing he that produceth him , and needeth his testimony hath discarded and discredited him sufficiently to be a counterfeit .

Saint Basil hath furnished them with a double testimony . Saint Basil is the next in this Iury of twelue : For so many are empanelled of the Greek Church ; who Orat. in 40 Martyres , directeth vs to call vnto them in the time of trouble . Qui aliqua premitur angustia ad hos confugiat . Qui rursum laetatur , hos oret . Ille , vt à malis liberetur : Hic , vt duret in rebus laetis . This is the first testimony out of him : In the former for there is another . First , I answere : Basils words are depraued by the Cardinals Controuersie : he is not 〈◊〉 as he speakes . for he reciteth them as if Basil had giuen his counsell with approbation , and exhorted men to haue recourse to them in time of need . Ad hos confugiat . So he citeth the place : Let him flye vnto them . Hos Oret . Let him Pray vnto them . But S. Basil in his owne language hath no such thing : It is onely a narration of practice : without counsell , aduice , or approbation . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , doth fl●e vnto them . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hath recourse vnto them . There is a difference , I ween , betwixt these two passages , howsoeuer altered , let him see to that that did it . Secondly , he speaketh not dogmatically , by way of any Positiue resolution , but as Orators vse to cary themselues in Panegyricall discourses . Basil was one of those , He speakes like an Orator , not dogmaticlly , as they cite him . wel-nigh the first of those , that excelled in that popular kind of Homilizing , wherein to moue affections , and to stirre deuotions , those Christian Orators tooke vp the course and the practice of great Masters in that Faculty , not plainely to teach , and positiuely to demonstrate , but to improue their Doctrine and teaching by Art , to settle the better what they would deliuer in points of Piety ; and for course of life . It was è re Christianâ in those times , much euery way , that the holy and most blessed Martyres of Iesus , should be had in great respect and awfull regard of men , who if neede so required , must tread after them the same steps , must maintaine the same cause ; and howsoeuer , stand continually in procinctu , at all assayes . That themselues might expect at Pagans hands , the selfe-same measure , meeted vnto those Heroes . Now nothing could be more potent for perswasion in that point , then to settle an assurance of their interest in GOD. There honour at his hands receiued . To be not onely highly rewarded themselues , but to haue that grace and fauour to recommend others : As with men on Earth , which is plaine in Cyprian : so with God in Heauen to preuaile , recommend to him , and obtaine for others what they desire . This point the Fathers presse much and often in their Anniuersary solemnities vpon Martyres memorials . Now , what is spoken Panegyrically ; raised vp to height with Hyperbolies , and bo●sterings of Arte , is not to be pressed dogmatically : For they vse to come downe to a lower straine , when they speake to the point , yea , or no : More reseruedly and suspensly in farre much streighter termes . Againe , S. Basil speaketh only of that time & place , the day of their festiuity in annuall obseruation : And he speakes onely of the place , and time of their annuall festiuity . The place their sacred Oratory , dedicated to Gods holy seruice in them : At which time , in which place , more specially they might be present , and were so imagined to be , rather then at other times , in another place . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Church of these holy Martyres is a refuge ready fitted and prepared for Christians . And yet then , And then , and there auerreth no inuocation of them ▪ but intercession by them . and there , not inuocation of them , but intercession by them , is auerred by S. Basil . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Ioyne your Prayers vnto and with the Intercession of those Angels ; with them , not to them , vnto God : for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 he resolueth God was present there : W●llin● them to ioyne in prayer with those Martyres . And therefore thirdly wee must remember that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hee would haue them ioyne in prayer with the Martryes , because that these were more interessed where Saint Basil vttered that Oration , then Saints at large are , or can be , vnto any of vs . They were all Cappadocians , of that Countrey : and they not long before Martyred , at least not so long before , but that they then liuing , might remember them well enough ; and they remember the state of that their Countrey , whereof peraduenture , they were deputed to take speciall care and charge . And so lastly it was a particular case , and relyed vpon some dispensation onely , which doth not warrant a generall practice , of all , vnto any , at any time indeterminately .

A second testimony is recited out of the same Basil in his Comment: The other testimony is of a higher straine . vpon the 33. Psal. these words of the Psalme , The eyes of the Lord are vpon the Righteous : and his eares are open vnto their prayers . Where Saint Basil thus : Sanctae spirituales virtutes aliquae , oculi dicuntur , quod curam susceperint nos intervisendi : Nonnullae aures , vt quae nostras suscipiunt preces . But not high enough to take hold vpon Inuocation of Saints . This passage is indeed of another straine , as putting to decision dogmatically : not related , or amplified Panegyrically . But euen this doth not reach home , it is too short to take hold vpon Inuocation . For he speaketh it of Angels , not of Saints , Being meant onely of Angels . and their case is different : their condition not the same . Secondly , not of all Angels in generall , but onely of some , and so appointed to that Act by speciall dispensation : which it selfe is . Thirdly , Appointed by speciall dispensation . peculiar Protection , as they are Custodes parvulorum . In the text there is a plaine diuersification of their Act : Some are eyes : others eares : some imployed in messages to vs : As peculiar Protectors . Others receiuing our prayers : but of whom ? From them it is probable , that were sent to visit vs : either as Guardians , or Extraordinarily : either way no warrant , for Inuocation of Angels , or Saints at large . Lastly , hee meaneth by our prayers , The prayers al●o being vnderstood not of particular men , but of the whole Church . the prayers of the Church , and not of euery particular man .

Not to diuide them in Opinion who in affection were so combined together . Greg. Naz. commeth in with a thraue of testimonies : not all indeed broght in by the Master of Controuersies , but yet of that Nature & Condition as that they may all speak as wel as some : Naz●●●zen seem● 〈…〉 , as they will haue it , that we must take him in parts . I wil produce them as they happened to come to my hands . And first in the nineteenth Oration , as the Copies goe , pag. 288. touching his owne father deceased , before Saint Sasil then present at the Sermon , In the first , he saith in deed , what we deny not . thus he : Nec dubito quin hoc nunc quoque tanto magis deprecatione suà , quàm prius doctrina , praestet , quanto nunc magis Deo appropi● quat. Nazianzene in this place may well be taken to resolue this position dogmatically . That the prayers of the Righteous in heauen , regnant with God , are more effectuall , and doe sooner preuaile with God , That the prayers of the Saints in heauen are more effectuall . then the prayers of men militant in the Church vpon earth . This is not questioned when they doe intercede . Secondly , Nazianzen resolued there that his father with God in heauen , That his deceased Father would not forget his late Episcopall ●harge . and happinesse , did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , fight for his flocke ; Doe the Office of a Pastor in praying for them . No more doe I doubt then Nazianzene did thereof . They whom he meant were sometime his fathers Episcopall charge . He loued them , instructed them , cared for them ▪ defended them in his life : nor could hee forget them being dead . For the soule doth not drinke of Lethe lake , to forget the things and passages of this world , wherewith formerly shee was acquainted . But I make a question indeed , But neither he saith , nor can they proue that he , o● any of his Church prayed to his Father . whether Nazianzen did pray vnto his father : or any of his Church recommended their priuate necessities , and afterward , occasions vnto his mediation or aduocation . I reade not that he or any else did so . I am sure he prayed not vnto him there : Not so much as speaketh vnto him by way of Apostrophe or compellation . That which he supposeth his father did for his flocke , is also supposed to be done motu proprio , and not vpon solicitation . And what is this to the case of Inuocation vnto peculiar Saints ?

Farther hee proceedeth with Saint Basil his friend in his Funerall Oration thus : The next is the supposed Inuocation of his friend Basil . Tu verò Sacrum & diuinum caput , de coelo nos quaso respice , carnisque stimulum à Deo nobis ad disciplinam datum aut precibus tuis siste , aut certè vt forti animo perferamus persuade , atque omnem nostram vitam ad id , quod maximè conducibile est , airige . Nosque postea quàm ex hâc vitâ migrauerimus illis quoque tabernaculis tuis suscipe . As direct an Inuocation supposed as may be . Nay rather a desire and a wish , that Saint Basil might be permitted to doe so , and so , then a prayer vnto him , vpon this resolution that hee could and would doe so . At least not so direct , as is Ora pro Nobis ; of strangers euery way vnto one vnknowne . But to one that he knew . But indeed as Nazianzen spake it in his own language , when he spake it , it was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a wish and desire at Gods hands : as Billius , a Papist , hath translated it , it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , a prayer . Respice nos ( so he hath it ) is an higher straine , to an higher note , then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , o si , or vtinam , nos respicias . And that the Translator hath wronged Nazianzens meaning , Abused by the Translator . whereby the Controuersor was willing enough to take aduantage , appeareth by his owne words a little before , whereas the ground of his prayer is but opinion . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And now hee is in Heauen , and there , as I verily suppose , offereth vp sacrifice for vs , making Intercession for the people . For howsoeuer hee is gone from vs , yet verily hath hee not vtterly forsaken , nor yet abandoned vs . All that he auoucheth , whatsoeuer it be , is but 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as I am perswaded , But howsoeuer vnresolued , and grounded vpon opinion . as I take it , and therefore vncertaine : and in him vnresolued . Nor doth he so much as say , Doe this ; but , oh that thou wouldest doe this for me ! Secondly , it is but a point of his rhetorique , and no more : And meerely Rhetoricall . and so is all that conclusion directed vnto him as present there , an ordinary straine of wit and inuention in such passages , Nazianzen was not of opinion , I suppose , that Saint Basil really and actiuely did 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that is , in the phrase of the Church , at that time , offer the holy Eucharist or consecrate it in Heauen : No more was he resolued that those other parts and particulars here specified by him , were then at that time really and actually performed . Lastly , it is a precedent of a particular case , And at the best , it is but a particular case of a friend to a friend . of a friend to a friend , then lately dead : and also concerning that which he might very well remember : and concerning which it had peraduenture passed by contract betwixt them , as was betwixt Cyprian and Cornelius , touching 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a stabbe in the flesh , some certaine tentation or other , for remouing of which Saint Basil is put in mind to entreat God : Very likely according vnto promise and stipulation . So in effect , it is a particular case , And so proueth no generall practice . of one friend to another ; which can be no precedent for generall practice and example . It is grounded meerely vpon peraduentures , not resolued positiuely : It concerneth remembrance of things formerly passed ; and not intimation of things newly done .

Vpon the selfe-same termes runneth that which is said to be directed vnto Athanasius by the same Nazianzene : The next , directed to Athanasius by Nazian ▪ is better interpreted . onely the Interpreter is there the honester man , and maketh him speake in the Optatiue ▪ as out of opinion , not in the Imperatiue , as out of Iudgement , thus : Nos autem vtinam ipse benignus desuper , & placidus aspicias , atque hunc populum gubernes : meque siquidem res pacatae futurae sint , in vitâ adhuc teneas ▪ gregemque vnà mecum pascas : sin autem Ecclesia , sit bellis flagratura , reducas , aut assumas tecumque & cum tui similibus colloces tametsi magnum sit quod postulo . Which if we take it literally , and dogmatically , Athanasius is made therein much more then a Mediator of Intercession . He could haue said no more vnto Christ Iesus himselfe . And if it bee as well vnderstood . But Gregory was too well grounded in Diuinity , and had not his name Theologus , for naught , thus to erre ; and too religious , thus to fall soule vpon Gods owne prerogatiues . It is a Prayer directed vnto God , that Athanasius then in rest , It is either directed vnto God . might doe for him thus , and thus : as a speciall friend , as interessed in that common cause of the Church , wherein no man had his part so deepe as he , hauing beene in his life , the principall defender of Christian verity , and opposer of hereticall impiety . Athanasius against all the World , and all the World against Athanasius . Or if to Athanasius alone addressed , no more but a rhetoricall flourish with a figure . Or , if directed to Athanasius , to be taken as a Rhetoricall flourish . I neede not seeke farre , for warrant to this exposition : In the same passage wee haue , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Doe thou breake off my present Oration here . His meaning is , not that Athanasius should either really come downe from Heauen , or actually , by some extraordinary course and meanes from Heauen , make him to desist and breake off his Oration , and stop his mouth : But in effect thus , and no more : Let mee here conclude , and make an end . Such proofes hath Nazianzene for this Inuocation , that Rhetoricall Figures , Apostrophees , Prosopoiees , and such like , must goe for demonstrations .

That Oration of his vpon Saint Cyprian commeth last , to pay for all . And so may we take that also in this Oration vpon Saint Cyprian . The first allegation wherout is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the same , and may receiue the selfe-same answere , which that did out of the other vpon Athanasius : whereto an ancient Scholiast , and Commentor , whom I haue seene and vsed , in written hand doth accord : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The Conclusion , according vnto Rules of Art , is cast into the forme of a wish : Therefore to be discussed in Hermogenes Schoole , and not pressed in disputes of Dogmaticall and Positiue Diuinity . Nazianzene concludeth his Oration vpon Saint Cyprian thus . At tu nos è caelo benignus aspicias : sermonesque nostros & vitam gubernes : sacrumque hunc gregem pascentem adjuues : cùm in caeteris rebus quoad eius fieri potuerit , Eum ad optima quaeque dirigens : tùm graues lupos syllabarum & verborum captatores amoliens . This passage will not reach home to Ora pro nobis , with confidence , in perswasion , He speakes to one that la●ely knew the persons and passages of the Church . to parties vnknowne , and not interessed particularly . He desireth it might be so , that Cyprian might doe it : he doth not desire Cyprian to doe it : For he was not resolued Cyprian could doe it . He beleeued that the Saints departed vnderstood , Yet he desires him not to do , what he knew whether hee could doe , or no. and tooke notice of things done here . But by credibility , not by Faith . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is the phrase he putteth on it : and though in two places hee seemeth to goe farther , vnto 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : yet it is but in some onely cases that he so speaketh ; nor is that with ordinary resolution . In some Cases , as to those that were but lately departed , acquainted with the persons , and the practice and passages of things in the Church , or of priuate men : the memory whereof may cause in them a fellow feeling , and procure a carefull respect to them in Heauen , and so recommendation vnto the Almighty . Thus in his 24 Oration touching Athanasius then with God , he pronounceth . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . I know right well , and am perswaded , saith he , that now at this present Athanasius being in Heauen , doth from thence behold vs , and helpeth those that suffer for Righteousnesse sake . He meaneth , by interceding vnto God for them , being a man that in his life had suffered much for Piety and Christs cause , and drunke as deepe of tribulation as euer did any . Out of this compassion from a fellow-feeling vpon experience , Athanasius hee thought , and so doe I , recommended the cause of the Church vnto God . But Nazianzene thought not , no more doe I , that Athanasius did , or could vnderstand euery priuate mans passages , or needs in the Church . And therefore , neither doth he himselfe pray vnto him , nor aduiseth vs , or any for to doe it . As for 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , I know right well , it doth often inferre no more then 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Opinion vncertaine , A● appeares by the like doubtfull speach . not Resolution . And what Nazianzene indeed did thinke of this particular , is plaine , and apparant out of his owne writings resolued and dogmaticall . In his Funerall Oration vpon his Sister Gorgonia , In his Funerall Oration vpon his Sister . pag , 190. he commeth off directly with this conclusion . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Now if thou haue any regard or apprehension of our Actions here , and if GOD doth permit and giue that power to the Holy Soules in Heauen , to haue any vnderstanding of such passages as these : Receiue at my hands this Oration of mine , in leiue of , and before many Funerals . The Interpreter doth somewhat draw off his meaning vnto a shorter scantling : as if in Gregory Nazianzens opinion , those blessed Saints , did happily take notice of honour done vnto them , and happily not : Whereas his meaning is , and so his speech runneth generally , concerning all things , and any thing whatsoeuer . Bellarmine vsed a better Translation : Si tibi aliqua nostri sermonis est ratio ; but answereth poorely and falsly that Si there , is not Dubitantis , sed affirmantis , And though Bellarmine striue to helpe it forward with a criticisme . as in the Epistle vnto Philemon ; Si habes me Socium , suscipe illum : In effect Quoniam habes me socium . Indeed as true the one as the other : For Saint Paul not doubting of Philemons willing Obedience , proposeth this as a Condition : Spoiled in the illustration , that should haue confirmed it . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , If you respect me as a Friend ; If you desire to hold friendship and fellowship with me : then receiue him . Not receiue him , because thou art my companion : A foolish Exposition in common sence and reason . But be the folly of that glosse what it will be ; Yet , to end all , Nazianzen doth elsewhere better interpret himselfe ▪ Nazianzen elsewhere declareth what his opinion was plainly , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . And heare , Pag. 30. oh thou soule , of great Constantius , if yet thou haue any sense or apprehension hereof : and likewise , yee the soules of all Christian Emperours before him , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . If there be any sense is not I suppose Affirmatiue , that they haue vnderstanding , but meerly dubitatiue , whether they haue any apprehension or not . Hee was not resolued , himselfe confesseth , ( and what may wee thinke then of all other passages alleaged ) whether the soules of the Righteous , at rest with God in Heauen ( and in that number he rancked Constantius , whom Athanasius sendeth to another place ) had any ordinary notice of things done here : indeed any notice at all . Rather it appeareth , he thought no : and then , what aduantage from him for Inuocation of Saints or Angels in the Church of Rome ?

Another passage yet they haue out of the same Oration vpon S. Cyprian , by them not sufficiently explained of Iustin . .. But at length we haue it home in a second passage selected out of the same Oration vpon Saint Cyprian , where Iustina a Christian Virgin , Virginem Mariam rogauit , vt peri●litanti virgini opem ferret . Thus the Master of Controuersies without any more adoe , or farther enlarging vpon the passage . The Story is thus . The Greeke Church had gotten vp a strange Story of Saint Cyprian Bishop of Carthage and Martyr , neuer heard of , nor dreampt of in the Westerne or African Church , in which he liued and dyed , not remembred by Pontius his Deacon , who liued with him and wrote his life . And yet it is certaine and cannot be denyed , the Grecian Tradition can be referred vnto no other Cyprian but this . That Tradition is this , That Cyprian formerly was a Pagan , and a Conjurer . That durante his Paganisme he fell in loue with Iustina a Christian Virgin of Antioch , whom when as by woing and ordinary meanes , he could not winne vnto his will , he went about to intice and preuaile with by Magicall spels and Coniurations . Which the Damosell perceiuing , fell to worke against him , with the ordinary armes of Christians in those times , Prayer , and Fasting , and the signe of the Crosse . Puella , simul at que persentit , desperatis alijs rebus , Who , after prayer , and fasting , without any Mediator , commenceth her owne suite . ad Deum confugit . Sponsum suum Christum defensorem assumit : recounteth vp , and putteth God in minde , of his workes of old , the wonders hee had wrought in times long agoe . Hac atque his plura commemorans , Virginemque Mariam supplex obsecrans , vt periclitanti Virgini suppetias ferret jeiunij & chameuniae pharmaco sese communiret . This is the state of that story in Nazianzene . In relating of it , they first commit crimen falsi . For in the Controuersies it is so reported , as if Iustina , in her exigency had had recourse onely vnto the Virgin Mary , who nor principally nor primarily had recourse vnto her . That indeed had beene home to the practice in the present Church of Rome , that take vp that course indeed : Runne first vnto her : solely vnto her : not so much as taking in Christ Iesus by the way , in mumbling their Martins , and deuotions . But this Virgin Iustina had beene better brought vp , and taught better things then so . First , shee prepareth her selfe by fasting and Scleragogie , to dispose his prayers and her deuotions aright . Then shee addresseth her selfe vnto GOD immediately according to direction , Addresseth her selfe first , and immediately vnto God , and Christ her Patron . Call vpon me : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . As if there were no helpe for her but in GOD. Secondly , Shee taketh Christ her Patron that was her Spouse : for it is more then probable she was a Votary . Thirdly , she taketh in , tanquam ex abundanti , And then ●akes in the blessed Virgin , ex abundanti , as a second or third . the blessed Virgin by the way , as if resoluing thus , what she can doe I know not , if any thing she can doe , a virgin to Christ a virgin , her helpe and assistance also I implore : So it is to small purpose for that Inuocation ▪ which addresseth Saints to God , as Mediators where men forsooth , dare not commence their owne suites themselues , the contrary being instanced in this particular . And whereas she taketh in the blessed Virgin vpon the by as a second , or a third , it leadeth to opinion , Which onely shewes the opinion of those times , that Saints departed could peraduenture vnderstand them . and but opinion of those times , that the blessed Virgin or other Saints departed could peraduenture vnderstand some passages here , and therefore if they could they might assist if they would , if nor so , nor so , there was no hurt done . Againe , not opinion of the Church , peraduenture , but onely of some few in the Church : and if those some in extremity , And the practice of men in extremity , that lay hold vpon any thing to saue their liues . when , & where , as those that are sincking and now to be swallowed in the streame , doe catch at any thing to saue their liues : so parties distressed vse any meanes , though it helpe them not , hauing no time , in exigence to dispute or resolue , quam bene , quam male , with what hope of successe they fall vpon it . And the rather so , And this is the onely example of such practice in antiquitie , and as weake to helpe them as she was then to helpe her selfe . because this is the onely example of such practice in Antiquity : a good inducement to suppose the Custome was not farre growen in , nor the opinion much preuailing . So that here is but a single practise , of one onely Maide , in fearefull extremity : vpon some vncertaine perswasion , that the virgin Mary happily might by extraordinary dispensation , haue some speciall Patronage by assignment ouer Virgines . Which is no absurdity much lesse impiety , was grounded on a more generall perswasion of the Church , that the Saints , though in heauen , had interest some way in the state of their friends allies and companions : especially for Professions of life , Societies of men , Countries , and Churches whereof themselues were . A perswasion then but of opinion , not Religion : no man compelled to beleeue or to practice it . Nor it selfe , nor the consequents thereof points of faith commanded : Grant vs this liberty , and we contend not . If they in all assayes , practice it themselues , & would teach their Nouices and Proselites so to doe , as this Virgin doth , Haue recourse , to God , and Christ : to God in Christ : and then ex abundanti , vpon the By , helpe or helpe not , take in Saint Mary , Saint Peter , Saint Paul , so , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , as Nazianzen phrased it , if they can heare , vnderstand , or helpe , there is no more but this , If they assist , good and well , if not , no hurt or harme done , God can and will , to whom principally , primarily and before all , we haue recourse in Christ Iesus , with full hope and confidence of assured deliuerance , ad voluntatem , or salutem . But 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : In the Church of Rome it is otherwise : Our Lady hath all Prayer and Deuotion addressed vnto her . All Saints there attend vpon her . Our Lord hath but reuersion , at second hand : Our God hath few suppliants , or none at all : euery man running to our Ladies shrine , or Saint Curlos .

And an example onely related by Nazianzen , and no more . And yet farther I adde : Nazianzen is but Narrator of this story , and no more , that which he hath is diegematicall , not by way of conclusion , or of approbation . He passeth no censure to it , any way : nor letteth vs vnderstand what his owne opinion was in the point . And yet by the Master of Controuersies , it is alleaged as dogmaticall , a proofe from Nazianzen , and for his iudgement in the case : For so was his proposall for the conclusion , that Sancti are Inuocandi , Probatur quartò testimonijs Graecorum & Latinorum Patrum . So that we find a manifest collusion in our great Master here . Beside , the Narration was but an heare-say . Nazianzen was no eare witnesse thereof , nor doth report it of his certaine knowledge . So that peraduenture it was , nor so , nor so . And the learned know that this narration of Saint Cyprian , howsoeuer taken vp in the Easterne Church , and beleeued hath nor view nor appearance of Fact in the West . Nor can be clearely resolued by all the Annalists in the World . Their great Dictator Baronius is plainely buzzarded in the point , and wisely concealing that which hee could not reconcile , passeth it ouer as in a dreame . So that the whole story for ought we know or can conceiue , is but Apocryphall , I know not whether meerly Apocryphal . and this particular narration must needs come vnder the same verge and rancke . Or if not : But , if authenticall , not of authority enough to confirme their tenet . but we admit it for authenticall , yet singularia haue no warrant , to be rules of actions vnto others . No more this , then that other of Gorgonia , related also , and with better credit , because ex certá scientiá , by the same Nazianzen , she being his owne sister . So it was , that she being desperately sicke , when all Physick and hope of helpe from man failed , as Iustina in extremity , Ad mortalium omnium medicum confugit . But how ? in a peculiar and strange manner . Hauing some remission of her sicknesse from the violence thereof , on a night at midnight , she getteth vp , and out of her chamber into the Church she goeth ; falleth on her knees downe before the Altar : intreateth him that was worshipped vpon the Altar , of all loues , mercies , & works of wonder , to restore her vnto her health : at last , hauing prayed long , wept much , & watched a good space , she layeth her head down vpon the Alter , and threatneth God , so Nazianzen phraseth it , she wil neuer rise vp from that place , vntill hee send her health and strength againe . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Wonder as it was , See , instantly , she felt her selfe perfectly whole and sound . This might be done : and doubtlesse was so : For we beleeue the publike protestation vpon knowledge of such a Reporter as was Gregory Nazianzen : But this is no precedent for imitation ; No more then that fact of Iustina , was exemplary , though we yeeld him the Euidence to be true . Priuate humours ; Singular actions , vpon sudden motions of some speciall instinct , must end where they began ; though excusable , tolerable , or auailable in particular , dangerous they may bee for directions vnto others , that haue no such speciall warrant as they might peraduenture haue vpon occasion .

Their equall in time , deare friend and neere alliance in blood , Gregory Nyssen is yet more plainely Panegyricall , in that which they cite . Gregory Nyssene commeth to speak next . Who performeth more apparently the part of a Panegyrist , in that Encomium of Theodorus , remembred by the Controuersor . Intercede as deprecare pro patriâ apud communem Regem ac Dominum . Timemus afflictiones , expectamus pericula , non longè absunt scelesti Scythae . A plaine Rhetoricall 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , in the very carriage of his Oration : no dogmaticall resolution of his faith : yet one such testimony , could our Masters afford vs one , or find vs one out , is worth an hundred of these that insinuate but prooue not , because they do not vnderstand . Nyssen spake it as an Orator , not as a Diuine . In a popular Sermon of Commemoration , not in a Doctrinall determination : as appeareth by that which is added for exaggeration . As appeareth by his following exaggeration . Quod si majori quoque opus fuerit aduocatione ac deprecatione , fratruratuorū Martyrum roga chorum , & cum omnibus vnà deprecare . Multorum justorum preces , multitudinum & populorum peccata luant . Admone Petrum , excita Paulum , vt pro ecclesijs quas constituerunt , soliciti sint , pro quibus catenas gestauerunt , pro quibus pericula ac mortes tulerunt . They will not , I imagine , presse vs to beleeue , that when any Saint inuocated cannot preuaile alone and by himselfe ( for their owne assertion is , God heareth them alway ) hee goeth vnto others and desireth their assistance : yet such a case is put by Nyssen here , as if Theodorus , not being in such grace with God , to obtaine , he must be forced to take to himselfe seconds and thirds , Peter , Paul , and the rest of that glorious company his fellow Martyres . It is idle to alleage such Rhetoricall passages , and Panegyricall straines , to proue points of difference and Controuersie dogmatically . Againe , it is to purpose , and must be remembred , that Gregory spake it on the ninth of Nouember , And the solemnity of the time , in which some greater honor perhaps might accre● to the Saint of the day . the day of his Excesse and Consummation vnder Maximianus , and then kept holy-day in that Church . It may be probable , and that is all : For certaine it is not , there being no constat of it in infallible truth , onely coniecturall in opinion ) that vpon that day , vpon that occasion , God , who as hee is glorious in his Saints , so is he also glorified by his Saints , doth discouer vnto that his glorious Saint and Seruant , whose memory for his noble Acts , is famous in the Church that day , for the honour that is done vnto himselfe in him , either by Angelicall intimation , or Diuine extraordinary dispensation , for his more accidentally at least accrewing glorification , some passages , in that place , where he was interessed , that so he may honour him the more , in granting his desires and petitions ; for the good of them that in him , and by him , doe honour and glorifie God . If the Church had such an opinion of old , as peraduenture they had , it was but opinion and probable pious meditation ; to excite others to goe after those Worthies examples , by recommendation of the so excellent reward . It was no point of faith , nor preached to beleeue , not beleeued to practice generally , but left at mens liberty to beleeue or not . So let the Church of Rome beleeue it if they will : So they presse not all others to beleeue it with them , nor condemne them of Heresie that doe not practice it , nor will beleeue it . Thirdly , it was a generall case , Being 〈…〉 touching the whole Church , and the likelie● to be knowne of Saints in heauen . and touched notoriously the whole Church : that which Nyssen intended in that place , no priuate occasion , or peculiar interest of some man . It was 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For the state of his Countrey then in hazzard : The Scythians , the Gothes , and such other enemies , were then vp in armes . Publike actions , Vniuersall occasions , long in suspense , much depending , a good while before notorious vnto Heauen and Earth , are the subiect of that Intercession there intended , which immane quantum di●●ert from such cases as commonly come vnder their Inuocation . Theodorus in Nyssens opinion could not be ▪ was not ignorant of these passages , and vpon such perswasion hath addresse vnto him . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Although thou art passed the course of this life , yet thou well enough wortest , the sufferings and necessities of man what they be . Begge peace therefore of God for vs , that so this Festiuall solemnity of thine may not cease . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The state of mankinde in generall not particular : and that also by remembrance of things past , not information of things present : or if so , yet of generall report and common fame , not of speciall notice or intimation . And lastly , what certainty he had hereof , of Theodorus Presence , Assistance , And all the while spoken by one full of vncertainties . pag. 1017. and possibility to relieue , appeareth , by his owne words somewhat before , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Wheresoeuer thou now wonnest , come hither in person , and be a spectator of this solemnity . For we call vnto thee againe , that hast called vs to participate thereof . And whether thou conuersest in heauen with God on high , or wonnest in some heauenly habitation aboue , or Copartner and Companion with the Quie●s of Angels , art assistant in the presence of theirs and thy Lord : Or else with Powers and Principalities , as a most faithfull seruant dost honour and worship him : For a little while omit those imployments there , and come in friendly , though in inuisible sort vnto them , who do honor vnto thee . These words doe not runne in such a straine , as soundeth for resolution and dogmaticall proofes , scarce for opinion or conceit . And yet if it did , as it doth not , we answere it is an extraordinary case , and therefore , not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , to the purpose ; 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , nor 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , much , often , and frequent come not home to the point . Inuocation warranted , must insist vpon perpetuall deputation thereto : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , alway , and euery where must come in . It must be a rule of generall practice or we cannot subscribe it : let it be done and taught dogmatically .

Ephraim the Syrian , harpeth vpon the same , no other string : Their next testimony 〈◊〉 vpon the same string of Rhetoricke . Precamur beatissimi , qui pro Domino saluatore , proque illius charitate , sponte & impigrè tormenta sensistis , atque ideò familiarius Domino coniuncti estis , vt pro nobis miseris , &c. Dominum interp●llare dignemini , vt superueniat in nos gratia Christi . Nay he striketh not so full a stroke . For it is but an Apostrophe in generall : which inferreth no conclusion at all . Not to any one peculiar selected Saint , But toucheth a more general assembly of Saints . but to the intire and whole Assembly of those happy ones in generall . And that not in a peculiar case of neede , or priuate interest of any one man , but in an vniuersall case of mediation : In which kind there is no question betwixt the parties contendant this day . In an vniuersal case of mediation . For it is in Confess● , that all the Saints departed , each seuerall Saint departed , and with God , doe and doth incessantly inuoke the high Maiestie of Heauen , pro Nobis miseris peccatoribus , & de Negligentiae squalore sordentibus : Which Brother-like affection , and Saint-like performance , is an especiall part of the Communion of Saints .

Cyril of Ierusalem , Cyril of Ierusalem strikes not so strong a stroke . if yet hee be the Author of those Mystagogical Catechismes vnder his name , which in some ancient Copies are ascribed to Iohn of Hierusalem , who , or what he was , I know not , is recited thus by the Controuersor , in moe places then one . Cum hoc Sacrificium offerimus , facimus mentionem etiam eorum qui ante nos obdormierunt ; primum Patriarcharum , Prophetarum ▪ Apostolorum , Martyrum : vt Deus orationibus illorum suscipiat preces nostras . In which saying , he commeth not so farre as Ephraim . He remembreth the practice in the Church in those dayes : a most ancient and very laudable custome , tending to piety and example of good life , to commemorate the memory of the dead at the Altar ▪ Speaking onely of the Commemorations of the dead ▪ after an ancient and laudable custome . Patriarchs , Prophets , Apostles , Martyrs , and Confessors ; and withall , to beseech the Maiesty of Heauen , that he would gratiously accept , regard , and grant their prayers for his Church vpon Earth : and mercifully giue eare vnto their owne Supplications then poured out vnto him . This Testimony , in my vnderstanding , speaketh to another purpose , not for Intercession by Inuocation . The Prayer here intended , is made , not to Saint , nor Soule , nor Angell , but to God : He supposeth , so doe all ; that those Holy ones with God , And of prayers made onely to God . doe continually pray vnto God for the Church ; which prayers he desireth God would mercifully heare , and grant vnto them , for the good of his chosen vpon Earth : Both parts in this passage , militant , triumphant , employed in Prayer : The prayer of either directed vnto God . This onely difference , The one as in necessity ; praying for themselues , the other in security ; themselues interceding for others . Neither Inuocating other for to doe it : but de motu proprio , and correspondent to their state .

Theodoret spake of the like prayers . Theodoret intendeth no more but so , in that testimony taken into the Controuersies : Ego autem huic narrationi sinem imponens , rogo & quaeso , vt per horum intercessionem diuinum consequar auxilium : Rogo & quaeso , nor this , nor that Saint , but God alone ; to this end and purpose , that by their Intercession and Prayers , I may finde assistance : which might be done , although hee neuer said ; Sancte , Tu , aut Tu , ora pro me : as being a member of that holy Society , for which they intercede continually . And yet if they did intercede for him particularly , it was vpon occasion extraordinary , his paines , and desert of them and the Church , in that History which he wrote , out of which this Testimony is recited , De vitis Patrum . But speciall Actions and particular Dispensations , as hath beene often said , are no rules for generall directions of Piety , in point of deuotion , and of Gods seruice necessarily incumbent . But whereas the Controuersor telleth vs , that Theodoret in Historia Sanctorum Patrum singulas vitas ita concludit : If hee meane in those precise words ; it is most false : And , for that which they vrge out of his History , is meerly belied . scarce doth hee conclude any so . If he vnderstand it to that sence , it is likewise false : For the 1. the 13.16.17 . lines haue no such thing at all ; the rest that haue the thing , yet differ , in substance somtime ; often in circumstance , very seldome therein agreeing . The eight in number , falleth in with that practice of the Ancients , of friends vnto friends , to remember them vnto God . Ego autem , cuius , dum adhuc esset superstes , percepi benedictionem , ed vt nunc quoque fruar precatus finem imponam : And in the 18. to the same purpose : Ego autem rogo , vt illam consequar intercessionem , quam huc vsque percepi , dum esset adhuc superstes . Not by speciall Inuocation of him , to remember him : but by prayer vnto God , that he may remember him : or if vnto him , as vitâ ; id. Rogans Sanctos , yet not with such confidence , as if he were certaine to be assuredly heard : Vitâ vj. Ego autem nunc oro , vt quam dare potest cius consequar intercessionem : He was not resolued what manner it was , but whatsoeuer it was , desireth to obtaine it . So , or we haue no certainty in the point , or that which wee haue , is not to purpose : not to interpose an exception against the party , as incompetent , because suspected or misvnderstood , because of that number , who held that Saints departed doe not yet see God . Damascene and Theophylact , are not Homines legales , to be empanelled vpon this Iury of twelue , out of the Greeke Church ; being both Postnati vnto Primitiue antiquity , and out of the verge of the Churches purity : Damascene liuing in the yeere 730. and Theophylact suruiuing William Conqueror .

Their testimony out of Chrysostome , of the Emperor his interceding . To conclude with Chrysostome , thus hee speaketh to the purpose , in the Controuersies : Homil. 66. ad populum Antiochenum circa finem . Nam & ipse qui purpuram indutus est ; He meaneth the Emperor , the Prince then in state , Accedit illa complexurus sepulchra & fastu deposito stat sanctis supplicaturus , vt pro se intercedant apud Deum : Et scenarum fabrum & Piscatores orat , qui diademate incedit redimitus . Hee meaneth Saint Peter , Saint Andrew , Iames , Iohn , and Paul ; though Bellarmines Interpretor , whosoeuer hee was , hath ignorantly , and falsly , and impiously too , translated 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 scenarum fabrum : as if Saint Paul had beene a Stage-maker , who was a Tent-maker , as 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or rather 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 signifieth , and not a stage-maker , a course of life I dare say he did detest : But let that passe , as not to purpose . I answere first , If the testimony be no better then the title of the Oration , If it be true . it is not worth three blew beanes , in a blew bladder : For Chrysost. neuer made halfe so many Orations , vnder that title of Ad populum Antiochenum . Bellarmine himselfe else where is my Author : 〈◊〉 de Scriptori 〈…〉 3●8 . Ex homilijs ad populum Antiochenum viginti & vna tantum reperiri dicuntur manuscriptae in antiquis bibliothecis . Secondly , this is onely a narration what was done : Yet it is 〈◊〉 narration , without any approbation of the thing done . it is no approbation of the thing done , or doing of it . The testimonies recited out of the 5. and 8. Homil. vpon Saint Mathew : and 1. vpon the 1 Thessal . doe speake of Saints liuing and not departed , and so are not to purpose , The other testimonies speak of Saints liuing . or ad rem . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . It is good to enioy or participate the prayers of Saints : and hee instanceth the profit by Saint Peter deliuered out of prison , at the prayers of the Church ; which I know , and I thinke our Masters doe beleeue , was of the Church militant , and not triumphant . So Hom. 44. in Gen. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Which we vnderstanding beloued , let vs haue recourse vnto the Intercession of Saints , and intreat them to recommend vs to God . But as I said , he meaneth liuing , not departed Saints : as interpreting that of Ier. 3.15 . And my selfe could furnish them with a better . But I will helpe them to a Text indeed , that commeth home , et rem acu : carrying with it approbation , nor so alone , but also inuitation to performe it . Tom. 5. pag. 481. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Not onely vpon this day , their holy day , and solemne festiuall , but other dayes likewise , let vs persist and attend vpon them at their Memories , ( he meaneth , Bernice , Prosdocia , and Domnia ) let vs make meanes vnto them , intreat them to vouchsafe and vndertake the Patronage and protection of vs : They can doe much with God , now dead , as they could aliue ; much more and rather dead then aliue : For now they beare about them the markes of Christ Iesus ; and can obtaine any thing of our Lord and King , if they but shew these markes vnto him . And yet this doth not proue precisely and home , And yet will not that proue the point in Controuersie . the point in Controuersie , no , not though hee addeth : If then they haue this great power with God , let vs by them endeauour to make God our friend , to deriue downe Gods mercies vnto our selues , by continuall attendance at their , Memorials , by our frequent repayring thither , hauing made our selues in effect their meniall servants . We cannot conclude hence , that he beleeued , As not concluding any faith , or practice , or perswasion of his . or practised , or perswaded Inuocation of Saints : but onely pleaded it out of some opinion , to helpe deuotion , and stirre vp the multitude in his popular Sermons , to a reuerend opinion , an actiue imitation of holy Saints , out of those worthy apprehensions of them . And spoken rather out of his Rhetorick , then out of his Diuinity . Thus hee lauisheth often as a good Pleader , when hee carryeth not himselfe in Cases of beliefe , as a positiue Diuine . So speaking of the holy Eucharist , hee calleth it fire : He saith , the bloud runneth about our teeth , and appealeth to the Auditory , As his manner i● elsewhere . if they haue not obserued it . At the time of communicating , hee saith , wee are in Heauen , conuersing there with Cherubins , and with Ser●phins : And yet hee meant not these transcendant speeches literally , I suppose , no , not in your opinions you Transubstantiators . Nor are all passages in this very testimony so to be taken , And as he cannot but be conceiued , in this very testimony . as at first sight they seeme to carry sence , and emply . For good Sirs , what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , markes of Christ Iesus , could those three soules in heauen and happinesse carry about with them ? How could they represent them vnto God or Christ , before the resurrection of the body ? But if yet you dare auouch that , this speech of his , I hope yet you will not iustifie 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . To the vtmost of our power , let vs imitate her . Hee meaneth Saint Pelagies , who yet slew her selfe . Consider in the Fathers , and all Writers indeed , How , what , wherefore , and when , is said , and of whom , by Panegyricks and popular Preachers in their Sermons . Otherwise many Impertinencies , Incongruities , flat absurdities , false impieties will ensue and be taught as positiue truths .

Secondly , I answere , it cannot be determined how Chrysostome could be of this opinion , The rather , because it is his opinion that the Saints doe , yet expect 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . at least in ordinary course of Gods dispensation , that holy Saints could helpe vs by recommending our cases vnto God : or therefore were to be Inuocated , because where hee speaketh Positiuely , as vpon , 1 Cor. 15. Hom. 39. and Hom. 28. vpon the Epistle to the Hebrewes , and in other places , hee seemeth to be through for that opinion , that the Saints departed , not yet in Palatio , behold not the face of God in glory , but expect in 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the Porch , as he phraseth it , the accomplishment of the reward to the Righteous , and finall Consummation of all in Christ . Which opinion cannot stand with our Inuocation , where of necessity they must haue accesse , that are to be imployed as Mediators , vnlesse Absalon could daily haue addresse vnto Dauid his Father , and commend all Suitors vnto him then , when for three yeare together he saw not his face .

But without all question , whatsoeuer Chrysostome said , And howsoeuer , that 〈◊〉 doe not much need their mediation . To. 5. pag 416. he would neuer had dyed in that defence of this opinion , nor maintained the practice of it against opposers . For hee telleth vs plainely , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Thou hast no need of Mediators vnto God Almighty , nor yet to runne vp and downe from one to another to speake for thee . But be thou alone forsaken , abandoned of all men , no man taking care or tuition of thee : yet come thy selfe vnto God : intercede with him in thy owne person , and without all question thou shalt haue thy desire . He vseth not to grant our desires so soone : nor so willingly our requests when others become Mediators for vs , as when we speake for our selues , although wee be otherwise laden with sinne . And the same word ; almost in another place he hath . To. 1. Ho. 4. ● . in Genesin . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For as much as we haue a mercifull Lord and Master , he doth not halfe so soone condescend to our Petition , And , that we are sooner heard at our owne suite , then at theirs . vpon mediation , as he doth at our owne suite . And farther affirmeth it an experimental● truth thus , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Which instantly he prooueth by examples . And yet to purpose more inforcedly : To. 5. pag. 546. When we haue cause to imply the helpe of man , we are faine to be at cost and charges : to sue , pray , intreat in most submisse and seruile sort . Much adoe we neede : great businesse we haue to effect it . We cannot directly haue accesse , to giue thancks , or to petition in our owne persons ; But we must make friends , by their Tutors , and Stewards , and seruants first , by faire words , by bribes , all the meanes we can , if yet by mediation we attaine our suits . Now no such adoe when we deale with God himselfe : He requireth no intercession for those that sue vnto him , nor doth he so readily grant vs our suite by mediation of others , as hee doth when we intreate him for our selues ; without any mediation or assistance at all . And so in many other places beside , the repeateth 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . We haue no need at all of Mediators : Vnlesse they will haue Chrysostome various and contradictory to himselfe . Shall wee thinke that Chrysostome forgat himselfe : or spake as his present occasions led him , without respect vnto the truth , saying , vnsaying the same thing ? Belieue it who list . But Positiuely he addresseth Te vnto Me , God vnto Man , without any Mediator at all . Ex abundanti peraduenture , Who , though he might perhaps take them in ex abundanti : yet neither was that his ordinary course . he thought Saints departed might sometimes in some place vpon some occasion giue good assistance vnto our Prayers . Ordinarily the course is , Call vpon me : Extra ordinem , it may be , vse their assistance . Generally they may pray in the consent of the Church : particularly they doe , or doe not as happeneth . Happen it may occasionally , as Martyes vpon their festiuals : which some Antients thought . Then especially : but otherwhiles also . A case not resolued on in those dayes . And therefore as if it were no generall beliefe , hee addeth that their Suffrages at other times , may doe good , but most probably , in all likelihood vpon their Natiuities , vnto such as make their prayers at their memorials : not so much inuocating their speciall and priuate assistance , as vpon this occasion , that God will that day extraordinarily extend his louing kindnesse for his seruants sake . That day , and in that place alone . For that day they did imagine them to be present : and as present so spake vnto them . But onely vpon d●yes of peculiar respect . To. 5. pa , 505. Thus Chrysostome else-where of Saint Ignatius . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . In consideration and regard hereof , let vs preferre our abiding here before all other content and pleasure whatsoeuer . That so being aduantaged with much content , we may , through the meanes of their intercession , become Inmates with them our fellow seruants . And this was rather in the opinion of Him or Them that came thether , And rather fitting himselfe to the opinion of others , then expressing his owne . to visite their shrine , by working vpon his or their affection , then in any actuall or reall performance of the Saint toward them , as the same Father expresseth it in his second Oration vpon the Martyr Babylas . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The very sight of the Coffin presented by view to the vnderstanding , amaseth it streight , and so affecteth it in that very sort , as if the party there interred were present really , to be seene with the eye , and together in prayer vnto God ioyned with vs . A plaine proofe of Chrysostomes resolution in the point , who seemeth to be ●o very much for Saints mediation . A strong imagination , and no more ; an impression , no reality vpon the vnderstanding . And he addeth yet a case parallell of those men , that hauing lost some one deare friend or other , and going to visit the place of his buriall , imagine that they behold him personally there , which we know is an ordinary impossibility : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , addresse their speech vnto him or them , as present , as hearing , instantly . Imagination is strong , they say , and doth much : sure it doth , which produceth such effects in Inuocation : for which , Neither will they haue any better successe either with the Greeke or Latine Fathers . if Chrysostome may interpret his owne meaning , there is no great warrant in his workes . Thus the Iury of Greeke Fathers , ten of them at least , haue said , what they knew , or could speake in the Case vpon their knowledge . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Not at all to purpose , nor answering the question propounded to them . The Latines succeed , if not more full to purpose , yet more frequent to the point . For to supply defaulters if any were , there are returned well-nigh a Decem non tales , as being postnati , and so partiall , that speake indeed to the practice since it was in being , out of the verge of our limitted time , Gregory the Great , he of Tours , and some other . And yet against the foreman is more exception : For they are honest men at least , of good reputation in the Country amongst their neighbours although their witnesse , as interessed , be not receiueable : but Cornelius , is a Counterfeit , no legall man , a flat Knight of the post . Ex Latinis , saith Bellarmine , St. Cornelius Papa , in Epistola 1a. quae est de translatione corporum Apostolorum , is the first and formost that is brought to speake : much to the preiudice of this cause : more to the iust reproofe of the Defendant , that bringeth that party to speake for him , whom himselfe , else-where , will not acknowledge otherwise then for a Rogue . For there hee resolueth that onely foure Epistles of Cornelius are extant , and this alledged is none of them . De scriptor : Ecclesiae . But he set forth his booke of Ecclesiastique Writers since , and therefore more aduised vpon better search , and second thoughts , he hath not authorised the Epistle as authenticke . But admit Cornelius were the Writer therof , and not some boy of the Scullery , or of the Stable , yet the fellow whosoeuer speaketh not to purpose : Orantes Deum , & Dominum nostrum Iesum Christum , vt intercedentibus Sanctis suis Apostolis , maculas vestrorum purget peccatorum . The prayer that is made , is to Iesus Christ , and to no Saint . There is mention of Intercession , but without Inuocation . Nor needed that . For he meaneth onely such and no other Intercession but such , which the Apostles of the Lamb , and Church of the redeemed in heauen , did make vnto God , for their Brethren yet in Earth . And euen that Intercession is not inlarged vnto all , but confined vnto the Apostles alone , Saint Peter , and Paul , because the present occasion touched them alone . The most that can be made of it , is this , that God would be pleased , to apply the generall Intercession of those Apostles , in , and with the Church triumphant , vnto this part of the Church Militant , that at present did this honour vnto those Apostles : this is all .

Saint Hillary is the next man , Saint Hillaries testimony is more true , then materiall . and his witnesse is true , vpon Psalme ●29 . but not to purpose , Hee speaketh onely of Angelicall Intercession , Intercessione Angelorum non naetura Dei indiget , sed infirmit as nostra : As speaking onely of Angels . Not a word touching Inuocation or Intercession of Saints . Now Saints and Angels as it hath beene declared , are ill and ignorantly combined per omnia , in this case , which are most ▪ what 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 and 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Incompatible companions in the point . Secondly , hee speaketh of particular Intercession , for them , And of particular Intercession . vnto whom they haue beene imployed , or vnto whom they are assigned : The first is a singular extraordinary case , and so holdeth not for generall practice euery where . The second is ordinary , as is supposed ; which if it be indeed as is supposed , then it is to purpose , but not to the question ; and therefore this witnesse might haue been spared , as that is in part out of 124. Psalme , where if any intercession be intended , it is that in generall for the whole Church . Sed neque desunt stare volentibus Sanctorum custodiae : neque munitiones Angelorum . And anon , to explaine the praesidium hee meaneth : Ac ne leue praesidium in Apostolis vel Patriarchis ac Prophetis vel potius in Angelis qus Ecclesiam quadam custodiâ circumsip●runt , crederemus , adiectum est . Et Dominus in circuitu populi sui . This is their Praesidium , a sure one indeed , the other is accessory and for all , out of that Communion and Society of Saints in the both Triumphant and Militant Church .

Saint Ambrose is produced to speake next , but he speaketh not home as they would haue him : Saint Ambrose speakes not out of full resolution . nor to purpose as they alledge him : Obsecrandi sunt Angeli , qui nobis ad praesidium dati sunt . Martyres obsecrandi , quorum videmur nobis corporis quoddam pignore patrocinium vindicart . Possunt pro peccatis rogare nostris , But onely out of some opinion of their patronage . qui proprio sanguine , etiamsi quae habuerant peccata lauerunt . Isti enim sunt Dei Martyres , nostri praesules , speculatores vita actuumque nosirorum . Non erubescamus eos intercessores nostrae in●irmitatis adhibere , quia ipsi infirmitatem corpori● , etiam cum vincerent , cognouerunt . The very carriage of this passage telleth vs thus much : that Saint Ambrose spake it not as out of resolution ▪ or conclusion Theologicall . It was but opinion that they were our Patroni . His speech bewrayeth his meaning ; Videmur , we doe seeme to haue it and no more . Secondly , And that opinion : 〈…〉 as patrocinium quoddam is from full patronage . it was restrained euen in that his opinion , & not left at randon or full liberty : Patrocinium quoddam is all he can stretch vnto , he could not well resolue , what , where , or when it was afforded . It is not an impossible thing for them to pray for vs . And he that saith so , & no more but so , might as well be produced to say it was no certaine thing . Beside , Saint Ambrose there speaketh of there Intercession in Genere ; for the Church , not in particular for any man vpon occasion : And not more vncertaine then too generall Intercession at large . and of Inuocation at large , that which is else-where more cleerely explained : that God would be pleased to accept and to grant the prayers and Petitions that they make for vs , the Church yet militant vpon Earth : being certainly inserted into the Couenant of grace , Baptismo sanguinis , and by shedding of their owne blood , so seeing and enioying God , that like vnto Angels Guardians they become vnto vs , Praesules , vitae speculatores , actuumque nostrorum : vnto whom res nostrae , did belong and appertaine , as the ioynt Actions of a Community doe in common to any of that Society . The manner how they were so : The tearmes how farre they were so : The meanes whereby they did so , he resolueth not , he could not tell , and therfore contenteth himselfe in generall termes with that onely Intercession , which without all doubt they make for the Church : which may cause them desire to know what they can , though what they might know , he , nor no other , could certainly tell , and therefore could not warrant , as indeed he doth not , any ordinary Inuocation of any one Saint , for any particular occasion whatsoeuer . What his opinion was therein , no man can better tell then himselfe : or speake to more purpose then he hath done . In Comment: ad cap. 1. Epistol. ad Rom. where hee concludeth , Ad Deum , quem vtique nihil latet , promerendum , suffragatore non est opus , sed mente denotâ . It was not then of necessity in Saint Ambrose opinion , to vse Intercession of Saint or Angell . He might goe himselfe by personall addresse , and euery pious deuout man might so goe in person , needed not vse Intercession of any : if any did interced for him good : if none did , yet lost he nothing thereby .

Lastly , whatsoeuer Saint Ambrose hath , or opined in that place , it is not meant de sanctis , with God in generall , And not mean● de sanctis 〈◊〉 in generall , but of Martyres 〈◊〉 particular . but onely of Martyres in Particular . Now their case was singular , their priuiledges surmounting in the opinion of antiquity . And therefore what by some is applied vnto Martyres is not to be transferred vnto all in generall . It was an vse in the Primitiue Church to pray for the dead : how and wherefore I dispute not now . But he that should doe so for any Martyr , in Saint Augustines iudgement much wronged the Martyr .

Hierome concluding his Funerall Oration vpon Paula , Gregory Nazianzen hath taught Saint Hierome , also how to Rhetorize . desireth her in heauen , to assist him with her prayers thus . Vale Paula , & cultoris tui vltimam senectutem Orationibus j●ua . This hee learned of his Master Gregory Nazianzene : and both of them as Panegyrists , in Rhetorum scamnis . For it is no more but a Rhetoricall conuersion vnto her , not of force to conclude a Diuinity probleme .

Secondly , I answere , it is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 a wish : and not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , And it appears as it is , onely a wish . a direct prayer vnto her .

Thirdly , it was addressed to one , his most familiar , inti●e , and ancient friend : and therefore no way obligatory , or exemplary for vs , Addressed to a late familiar friend . ex opere operato : and it may be he spake it out of assurance of , or with reference vnto , some promise or compact betwixt them made , as in the case of Cyprian , and Cornelius .

Lastly , Hierome was perswaded shee did remember him already , Vpon ground of her kind remembrance . and so it was no prayer by direction : For so else-where we finde it concerning Blesilla , Loquitur illa , & alia multa quae taceo , & pro te Dominum rogat : mihique , vt de eius mente securus sum veniam impetrat Peccatorum . Max●imus of Turin by the like addresse concludeth his Panegyricall Sermon vpon Saint Agnes . The like addresse Maximus of T. had vnto S Agnes . Itaque O splendida Christo , pulchra Dei filio , & omnibus Angelis et Archangelis grata , vt nostri meminisse digneris , quibus possumus precilus exoramus . He made that Sermon vpon her Anniuersary minde day : and as then fortè present , at that speciall occasion , by peculiar dispensation : so he directeth his speech vnto her : and that not with confidence of being heard : Without any great confidence of being heard . Quibus possumus precibus , is as much as nothing : In effect , as I can , so I direct this my addresse vnto thee : heare and helpe me accordingly as thou canst , and maist : So the man , in the point , was not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; He was not so fully perswaded of that , or any Saints assistance , as that he went farther then opinion . In another place , to that purpose , hee speaketh so reseruedly , Ideò veneremur eos in saeculo , quos defensores habere possumus in futuro . Possumus , peraduenture , and no more : vncertaine he was whether I , or no : And yet farther , Possumus , saue onely those as wee were sometime interessed in here . And thirdly , Defensores , vpon generall cases of the Church : not in particular assayes of our owne .

The Emperor Theodosius in Ruffinus History , Lib. 2. cap. 33. doth not inuocate any Saint , And wee cannot thinke much otherwise of Theodesius . or Saints at all : onely vpon that exigent of the Rebellion of Eugenius and his Complices , he went in Procession with Clergy and Laity that were firme vnto him , in great deuotion , to the Oratories , Churches , Chappels , Sepulchers , and Shrines of the Apostles , of Martyrs , and other holy Saints : there he made his prayers vnto God in Christ , not vnto them , though hee were so perswaded they could and would take notice of him , and assist him with their prayers vnto God Almighty ; as well they might then , and hee be so perswaded at that time concerning them , in such a publike action as that was , in which not onely the Imperiall Maiesty and State , Though his was also in a 〈◊〉 action , ●●●thing both the Imperiall State , and the State of Religion . but Christ an Religion also lay at stake , vpon the hazard and tryall of that dayes aduenture . If then any some , or all the Saints of Paradise did assuredly take notice , and were informed in particular , and this were also to be proued , yet is it no warrant for their ordinary knowledge in other passages , nor yet for extraordinary when we will haue it : no more then that wee expect in all actions of Annes , against : Rebels , Traytors , Tyrants , or Infidels , God declare himselfe so as then he did . For so it is , God shewed himselfe then the Lord of Hosts indeed ; and the Mighty God of battell , if euer else in the sequell of this action against Eugenius . For this is that memorable action , concerning which Claudian wrote thus .

Te propter gelidis Aquilo de monte procellis Obruit aduersas acies , Panegy ad Honor : in 3. eius Consulatis . reuolutaque tela Vertit in authores , & turbine reppulit hastas O nimium dilecte Deo , cui fundit abantris Aeolus armatas hyemes , cui militat aether Et coniurati veniunt ad classica venti .

What friends Theodosius made in this exigence , vpon whom he called , vnto whom he had addresse , Ruffinus relateth in the same place , Tum verò vt conuersas suorum acies vidit Theodosius , stans in editâ rupe vnde & conspicere , & conspici ab vtroque exercitu posset , proiectis armis ad solita se vertit auxilia , & prostratus in Conspectu Dei , Tu inquit , omnipotens Deus nosti , quia in nomine Christi filij tui , vltionis iusta praelia ista suscepi : si secus , in me vindica , si verò cum caussâ probata , & in te confisus huc veni , porrige dextram tuam , ne dicant forte Gentiles . ( For they were Pagans , or addicted vnto Paganisme in the action ) vbi est corum Deus ? In which exigence hee preuailed by his owne immediate Inuocation of God himselfe . Thus the Emperor then preuailed not by intercession of any Saint , but at his owne immediate inuocation vnto God himselfe , as Socrates , Theodoret , Sozomenus relate it : and it is expressed by Ruffinus , that this was , and had beene his vse of old , often approued with successe : ad solita se vertit auxilia . So nothing is gotten by this allegation : To aduance the proofe farther for their aduantage , beyond the obseruation of the Controuersor , Lib. 7. ca. 24. Sozomenus reporteth that the Emperor setting forth vpon his voyage , made his recourse vnto God in a Church , which he himselfe had builded in honour and memory of Saint Iohn Baptist , For whatsoeuer is related of his Inuocating Iohn the Baptist . seuen miles distant from Constantinople , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , earnestly entreated the Baptist to assist him : nor onely so , but he did this with successe . Fertur enim , saith the Story , quod eo tempore quo pugna haec committebatur , ex eo templo Dei , quod ad septimum lapidem situm erat , in quo preces fuderat Imperator egressus daemon quidam , abreptus in sublime , Iohanni Baptista conuitiatus sit , & capitis obtruncationem obiecerit , magnaque voce clamarit , Tunc me vincis , & exercitij meo insidiaris . But the credit first of this Story may be questioned : It hath little credit . for Socrates , and Theodoret , elder then Sozomenus , haue it not ; and Sozomenus himselfe hath no greater warrant for it then heare-say : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , the report is : but who the Author was , what credit it was of , is not related . Theodoret reporteth , that not Iohn Baptist , but Iohn Euangelist , and Philip the Apostle were 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , and assistants vnto the Emperors Forces . But be the Story authenticall , and of incontrolable credit , it is a singular fact , ioyned with miraculous operation of him , who is euer glorious and admirable in his Saints : but then especially , when as his owne glory , and the state of the Catholike Church doth lye at stake , as it did vpon the hazard of that dayes successe . Such singular passages , are not to be called into precedent , vnless also we expect the like extraordinary and miraculous deliuerances in our addresses . Lastly , the Emperour had repaire vnto God alone , At the least , it is but a prayer , that God would appoint the Baptist for aide . without any mediation at all : it is plaine in the Text , afterward 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , hee yet farther calleth vpon God , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , that he would appoint the Baptist for to aide him . But to put it home for the most aduantage , admit that 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , he calleth vpon the Baptist indeed , and without more adoe ; it is not to assist him in his prayers vnto God : but hauing gone himselfe in person , with confidence first vnto the Throne of Grace , And being in a Church dedicated to him , he might the better take him in by the way for assistance . he taketh in , ouer and aboue ( 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ) the furtherance of the Baptist , as a second , not as a principall : as peraduenture able to doe some good , being occasioned by the place where he made his prayers vnto God , the Church of Saint Iohn Baptist , by the way .

The two next are Paulinus and Prudentius , To the testimony of Paulinus and Prudentius , it is enough to say , they are Poets . Christian Poets , who vse the liberty of Poets , Quidlibet agendi : They may passe on : and if he neede testimonies of this kinde , I can affoord him 500. as fit , as pat , as pregnant as these , and build him vp strange positions in Diuinity ; if I may be permitted to take and alleage literally , and sensu primo , the enforced passages of Poets , Christians as well as prophane .

And of Victor , that he is an Historian . Victor Bishop of Vtica , is an Historian : and such are Narratores , of other mens Acts , not expositores of their owne opinions . Narrations haue no more weight or worth , then haue those Authors from whence they proceed . But Victor in this place laying aside the person of an Historian , taketh vp the carriage of a Panegyrist meerely : That takes vp also the cariage of a Panegyrick . To deplore the calamity of the Church in those times , by the barbarous Vandals , &c. he conuenteth , as it were , the Catholike Church by parts , and addresseth his Rhetorique in this wise , Adestote Angeli Dei : D●precamini Patriarchae : Orate Sancti Prophetae : Estote Apostoli saffragatores : Praecipue tu Petre beate , quare siles pro ouibus & agnis , à communi Domino magnâ tibi cautelâ et solicitudine commendatis ? Thus he expostulateth with Saint Peter , and chideth him , you will not suppose , really and indeed , but onely Rhetorically & figuratiuely , no more then to expresse Art , rather then Piety therein : and why not in like sort for Inuocation , in which sort and fashion he goeth on , Tu Sancte Paule , gentium magister , cognosce quid Vandali faciunt : which a man might as well produce , to proue that Saint Peter and Saint Paul , were ignorant of , not interessed in the calamities of those times : and so farre of to be inuocated , or their help implored by the Church , as hauing no notice thereof at all .

The next testimony . Fulgentius was a man of worth in his time , but the testimony produced is none of his : It is suppositions , and a counterfeit . The whole Homily is in Saint Augustines workes , Tom. 10. as one of his , vnder title of Sermo 15. de Tempore . Nor deserues any . The Louanists , found it ascribed vnto Seucrianus in some Copies , which argueth it a stragler , a masterlesse piece , a rogue : And more then that , a blasphemous varlet in this very place recited by the Cardinall Controuersor . Omnes cursus naturae virgo Maria in Domino nostro Iesu Christo suscepit , vt omnibus ad se confugientibus foeminis subueniret , & sic restauraret ( so it followeth , where the Cardinall left of ) omnegenus foeminarum ad se venieutium , noua Eua seruando virginitatem : sicut omnegenus viuorum Adam nouus recuperat Dominus Iesus . Is not this a varlet in graine : a fit Patron for Inuocation , that in the very grand-work of Redemption parteth stakes betwixt Christ Iesus and the Virgin Mary , that entitleth her nouam E●am , as Christ is called nouus Adam . That professeth she restored all Woman-kind , as Christ did all Mankind . I suppose William Postel coyned this worke to giue credit and countenance vnto his old Beldame . Howsoeuer the Cardinall wanted witnesses it seemeth , that tooke in such a Rascall to make vp a number , for want of better euidences , and to purpose .

As for Saint Leo , The other of Leo , if they were doubled could not help their cause . hee might afford him many moe testimonies of like nature , concerning Saint Peters Intercession , as Serm. 3. in die Anniuersario , Serm. 1. de jeiunio . 10. mensis . Serm. 5.6.8 . in Natali Apostolorum . All which extend no farther then this , that some speciall Church and people , as Saint Peter had ouer the Roman Church , Being all of particulars . and yet Leo goeth no farther then this , By his merits and Prayers , we hope to find assistance : Intercession , without any Inuocation . These testimonies looke toward Intercession : that produced in the Controuersies is for neither : Vnlesse this may be remembred for to establish Inuocation , Make you friends of the vnrighteous Mammon , that is , make Intercession , and call vpon Mammon . For the text of Saint Leo looketh that way , Per bonam aemulationem , ipsorum exambi●e suffragia .

Saint Augustines authority would haue preuailed much , if he had fauoured the cause . I haue reserued Saint Augustine for the last , as being the man vpon whose shoulders for dogmaticall points disputed and resolued , the Church of God hath as much relyed , as vpon any since the Apostles times . For scarcely is intercession found in him , vnlesse it be of Martyres , who in the opinion of the Church , and also of Saint Augustine , But he resolues it , onely as an act of speciall dispensation for Martyres . had an especiall priuiledge aboue other Saints . And therefore he that yeeldeth Martyres as were interessed , rebus viuentium , denieth it precisely of other Saints . Non ideò putandum est vivorum rebus quoslibet enteresse possed defunctos , quoniam quibusdam sanandis vel adiuvandis Martyres adsunt . Sed ideò potius intelligendum est , quod per diuinam Potentiam Martyres viuorum rebus intersint , quoniam defuncti per naturam propriam viuorum rebus interesse non possunt . So that by Saint Augustines resolution it is an Act of speciall dispensation , no naturall ability or sufficiency in any Saint , to take notice of any thing done vpon earth . And secondly so an act of speciall diuine dispensation , that it belongeth vnto some onely , and is not communicated vnto all generally : Martyres alone haue that priuiledge . Which instance of Saint Augustine , out of the opinion of the Church , answereth well-nigh all allegations , of any practice this way for Inuocation or Intercession in antiquity . And lastly , Martyres with some limitation , Ad memorias eorum , And for them too , with some limitation . and not else-where . These Memoriae being now no where extant , Inuocation in his opinion is ceased . Or else in Natali eorum die vpon the day of their consummation : which being but once in the yeare : and in so long a tract of time , vncertaine also , Inuocation can bee but seldome , and then too vncertaine : and they being onely to be then Inuoked , doe make Intercession onely then . Sicut dicit Apostolus non omnes sancti habent dona curationum : ita nec in omnibus memorijs sanctorum ista fieri voluit ille , qui diuidit propria vnicuique , sicut vult . August . Epistola . 137. And the testimonies recited in the Controuersies out of Augustine are all for Martyres , not Saints of any other rancke or reckoning , betwixt whom and Martyres he putteth this difference , that Cum pro caeteris defunctis oretur , Martyres pro nobis rather intercedant .

Thus they spake and wrote that for fiue hundred yeares or thereabout after Christ , And so it was resolued by the first , and best in the Primitiue Church . were the chiefe and principall amongst the Worthies of Dauid . Whereof not any one speaketh positiuely to the point , as in full resolution of the truth of that conclusion . Holy Saints and Angels are to be Inuocated . And therefore the latter Writers . Those that remaine vpon record , filed vp in the Controuersies , Gregory the first , Gregory of Turon , Bede , Anselme , Bernard , are later , postnati , to the practice growne into vse , and therefore not authenticall in the question . Nor did Philip Melanthon at all enlarge Quiante Gregorium ignotam fuisse scripsit sanctorum Inuocationem . Namely , for vse and approbation of the Church . And Decrees of Councels are the lesse to be listned vnto . As for decrees of Councels in determinations of Faith : Our Masters of Controuersies are not much troubled with any great store of them . In the appendex vnto the Councell of Chalcedon , the Bishops of Europe write thus vnto the Emperour Leo. Sanctissimum Proterium in choro , & ordine sanctorum Martyrum ponimus , & ejus intercssione misericordem & propitium Deum habere postulamus . But first of all it is no Councell decree : indeed it specifieth a practice of the Church , and so also a beleefe . They vsed to pray vnto God that he would be pleased to accept the Intercession of Martyres : which is nothing to the point in question . For here is inuocation directed vnto God , not Saints . Intercession of Saints is remembred , but not of all : onely Martyres . Then Intercession is not Inuocation . It is , and may be where Inuocation is not , etiam in particular , but this is also in generall . For , if not the whole Church represented , yet for the Church representing in a speciall action , a peculiar time , singular occasion so remarkeable and notorious , it could not be hid , they desire God , that Proterius might remember them , and commend them vnto the Maiesty of Heauen . The second allegation is of lesse operation , Flauianus post mortem viuit : Martyr pro nobis orat : It is onely an asseueration what he did , not Inuocation , that so he might , and that which he did , was a speciall case , of Intercession for them whom he knew in the flesh : of deprecation for the state of the Church whereof hee had speciall notice in his life , being therein interessed particularly : But , quid hoc ad Bacchum ? for ordinary practice commonly ? Shew mee any positiue assertion of Father : any Decree of Councell within the time prefixed of 550. yeares , and I subscribe .

As for miracles , And the miracles which they report , least of all to be belieued . I beleeue them when I see them . Sure I am , there is much cosinage and collusion in them . The Donatists were wont to brag much of them : Quae figmenta mendacium hominum , vel portenta fuerunt fallacium Daemonum , in the opinion of Saint Augustine . For euen the Diuels those Gods of the Gentiles wrought miracles , and true ones substantially , for the confirmation of Paganisme and Idolatry . Orata . in Iuda● 1. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . For euen the Diuell , saith Chrysostome , hath by his Art and cunning cured many diseases , and restored men vnto their health againe . What then ? Shall we therefore subscribe vnto , and partake of their impiety ? God forbid . And who knoweth not Hereticks haue euer run this course to confirme their impieties from such delusions . Adijcient multa de authoritate cujuque doctoris ●aeretici : illos maximè dostrinae suae sidem confirmasse : mortues suscitasse , debiles reformasse , futura significasse ; v●i merito Apostoli crederentur . Quasi nec hoc s●riptum sit venturos multos , qui etiam virtutes maximae● ederent , ad fallatiam munie●dam corruptae praedicationis . 〈…〉 . 44. So that in opinion of Tertullian , it is no safe proceeding by this Mirabiliatian courses , to iustifie Inuocation of Saints or Angels . So that no reason but to embrace Chrysostomes resolution , For either they confirme nothing ▪ 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Credit is to be giuen to the Scripture , rather then vnto Miracles whatsoeuer . But to grant them true , truely done , by the onely finger of God , yet being , as they are , extraordinary workes of wonder , whensoeuer they confirme that for which they are alledged , we may doe well to remember , that what they so confirme , are also extraordinary dispensations , Or nothing but extraordinary dispensations . not to be drawne into practice ordinarily , and so nor they , nor their effects any thing to purpose .

And so they must euery way faile in the 〈◊〉 of Intercession Shew me , to conclude , any positiue practice in antiquity , not one or two examples of some priuate parties . A receiued resolution for the verity thereof , concluded dogmatically . Demonstrate vnto me infallibly , by reason , Scripture , authentick tradition , that Saints departed are call of them , or any of them interessed ordinarily , rebus viuentium . That by either Euening or Morning knowledge . Naturall indowments , or acquired accruments . By diuine reuelation . Angelicall relation , Till they haue found vs better assurance , that they know , and are interessed in our affaires . or other meanes they doe or can know and vnderstand my necessities , exigences , prayers , or practico in any time or place when I call vpon them , or vnto them , and I will vnfainedly ioyne hands of fellowship , and say , Saint Peter , Saint Paul , pray for me . Vntill that , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 ; and so I thinke will any , desire to be excused for Inuocation : For to bee perswaded as some haue told me they are , that in their opinion Saints nor doe , nor can be priuy vnto my necessities , nor heare my prayers , and yet to pray vnto them , is to my vnderstanding so poore a part of Piety , that it is without warrant of common sense . It is peraduenture possible , saith Saint Augustine , that the dead know something done here amongst vs , by relation of Angels , Qui rebus quae aguntur hic praesto sunt , and beholding the actions and occasions of mortall men with whom they conuerse , peraduenture make report of them in Heauen . Such things and no moe , and no other then those are , which he to whom all things are aperta , and in subiection , thinketh fit and conuenient for them to know . Somewhat God may be pleased to reueale and let them know immediately from himselfe . ( Vnlesse as we by particular Reuelation , may know of theirs . ) Some men may haue at some certaine times particular reuelation , or peraduenture apparitions from the dead : as Saint Paul yet liuing 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , was rapt vp , but how , into the third Heauen . Verum ista diuinitus exhibentur , longè aliter quam se habet vsitatus rerum ordo , singulis creaturarum generibus attributus , saith Augustine . All these being extraordinary dispensations , no ordinary rules of practice are not to be made ordinary Precedents , especially in cases of Religon and Piety , or of such humane exigences as require quicke dispatch , and certaine assurance for deliuerance : Specially since we haue a surer , and speedie● way of dispatch , with 〈◊〉 them . Can I expect through the Meanes , Mediation , or Intercession of any Saint , or all the Saints of Paradise , any spedier admittance then I can haue from God himselfe ; any readier dispatch then he immediately affordeth ? Call vpon me , and I will heare . Inuitation out of Mercy ; promise of Grace are not so farre a sunder in the text of Dauid : and as instantly consequent in Gods performance . The word is no sooner out of thy mouth . Heare me , O Lord : but it is in the Eares of the Lord of Hosts , and instantly findeth grace and acceptance ; For streight he commeth in with . I wil heare and deliuer thee . Abrahams seruant , a good seruant of such a Master , in that great imployment , To take a Wife for Isack , Gen. 24. Hath recourse vnto the God of his Master Abraham . Immediate addresse , without aide or assistance ▪ and what successe ? such as none could expect or desire better . For vers. 15. Before he had left speaking , behold Rebekah came out . The party prouided for him : So God instantly heard his prayer , and granted his request . No man , I suppose , would desire better Audience . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . If thou haue any suite to , To. ● . pag. 195. or businesse with man , thou first enquirest if he be at leasure ? to be spoken with ? He that attendeth on him , answereth my Master is a sleep , he cannot be spoken with . But no such matter if thou addresse thee vnto God . Goe to him and Call , he instantly answereth and giueth eare : No businesse hindereth : No Mediator needeth : No seruant or attendant to keepe thee out . But say , Lord haue mercy vpon me , and eft-soones behold , God is at hand . While yet the Word is in thy mouth , he returneth answere , Loe here am I. Thy Petition is dispatched before thy suite be fully ended . No long suite : No great charge : not much trouble or attendance in Call , and I will heare . It is not man , thou hast recourse vnto , that so thou shouldest follow him farre , or repaire vnto the place of his abode . God is alway neare , euer at hand . Thus to purpose . And againe , in the case of the woman of Tyre . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Pag. 190. She doth not addresse her selfe to Peter : shee supplicateth not vnto Iohn : shee doth not intreat Iames to helpe her : but passeth through the middest of them to Christ . I neede no Mediator quoth she : but with true repentance my companion , I come personally vnto the spring head . Hee came downe from Heauen : hee tooke flesh for this cause , that euen I , might come and speake vnto him . Therefore in conclusion , to their perswasions , that direct , and inuite me otherwise then to call vpon Me. Without more ado I answere with Nazianzene in another case , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : Let vs stand as we doe : all things considered , we haue no reason to change for the worse . Hold that fast which we haue receiued from our Elders , the ancient Christians of the purest times : the eldest Tradition of the Church : who neuer were acquainted with such diuersions from the right and direct way . And their contrary Doctrine is both a nouelty , and foolery . It is a nouelty I auerre , and will auow to vse such Intercession . Not heard of for practice ordinary in the Church for aboue fiue hundred yeares after Christ . It is foolery to goe so about the bush , when without much adoe , the bird may be had . It cannot be proued by any Romane Catholique nor all the Roman Catholiques liuing , that Saints departed , of what Rancke , Condition , Quality , Mansion or Degree soeuer , can vnderstand ordinarily our Needes , Necessities , Votes , Desires , or Petitions , and therefore , as vnfit for this imployment , are not ordinarily to be Called vpon , for Helpe , Assistance , or Reliefe . Origens conclusion will hold and shall be defended and made good against all Opponents . Vtrum sancti qui cum Christo sunt , aguni aliquid & laborant pro nobis , in particular , vpon particulars , est inter mysteria occulta Dej : And therefore not so rashly to be resolued affirmatiuely . Without any ground . It is no point of Faith fundamentall , or secundary : neuer so resolued for many ages in the eldest times of the Church : no practice of the faithfull ancient , imposed , or vniuersall : no tradition for it , much lesse Scripture : no ground in reason , or in Diuinity . It is but folly in time of necessity to rely vpon their mediation : The best course is , The vsed course hath beene euer : the surest way is euer without their mediation , to haue immediate addresse vnto God in Christ . If any Papist liuing , or all the Papists liuing , can iustifie the practice of their Church herein , against the Doctrine and practice of the Church of England , I will subscribe vnto all Popery .

And yet we are wronged , And yet we deny no honour to the blessed Saints . and deepely calumniated by foule mouthed detractors , as iniurious vnto God in the dishonour of his Saints , because we giue them not the honor which is not due vnto them , wherof they are not any way capable . Those blessed ones with God , that haue fought a good fight ; kept the Faith , finished their course : as they are now regnant in glory , with their Redeemer ; so are they honourable amongst the Righteous vpon Earth for euer . They haue left a name behind them : so that their praise shall be remembred for euermore . The Lord hath gotten great glory by them , and therefore with renowne hee will reward them . No Christian will deny , or enuy them their due : And for my selfe , I say with Nazianzene , or Basil I am sure . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . It doth me good at heart to see them honoured , I admire , reuerence , adore them in their kinde ; their Triumphs and Trophees ouer Death and Hell my Tongue and Pen shall most willingly set out to life , with all the poore skill and faculty I haue . Thrice happy Reapers of that mighty Booz , that did so worthily in Ephrata , and were so famous in Bethleem : that sowed in teares , when you went out weeping , but reape now the fruit of your labours in ioy , you haue left some gleanings for Ruth to gather after you , to the comfort and cherishing of her poore widow mother . Thrice happy guests of that royall Ahashuerosh , admitted to eat at his Table in his Pallace , that Non-such of God , to drinke the sweet wine of felicity in the cuppes of immortality , clad in the wedding garments of immutability : Blessed Soules and immaculate , it hath beene your turnes already , being purged with the Oyle of Purification , and perfumed with the Odors of the Lambes innocency , to goe into the Chamber of that great King , and to be married vnto him by immortality . Spies of that Land of promise , which indeed floweth with milke and hony , to whom that Captaine of the Armies of the Lord of Hosts , the Ioshua in truth , and not in type , hath giuen rest from all enemies round about . Faire Flockes of that great Shepheard of Israel , that feede vpon the Mountaines of Eternity , and repose your selues in Pastures , by the waters of life , wee know you affoord vs your best wishes and desires : refresh vs with the crummes of your delicacies there , compassionate our yet Pilgrime estate , that lye among Lyons , feed with the Wolfe , and goe to water with the Dragons . We cannot forget , we must not be vnmindfull of your worth , Iohn , Peter , Paul , Iames , Stephen , Luke , Andrew Tecla , those 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , Sacrifices for Christ , Pag. 76. as Nazianzene calleth them , such as with them , after them , and before them , Pro veritate periculis se obiecerunt : cum igni , ferro , belluis , tyrannis , malis praesentibus et denunciatis , alacri animo , velut in alienis corporibus non suis , imò , vt expertes corporum , dimicarunt . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . These you honour not , but disgrace what you may : so he expostulateth with , and chargeth Iulian that Renegado : but he neuer intended so to honour them , as Honorificentiam regis deferre Comiti , But that which is onely due vnto their Maker . to giue them the honour due vnto their Maker . This I must not , I cannot , I dare not presume to doe : For how can I answere it vnto my Master , who hath denounced , My honour shall no man haue , nor will I part stakes with any other ? Nay , how vnto those Grandies themselues , the Saints ? so iealous of their Redeemers honour , that before all they first would plead against me , and cast me vpon enditement of high Treason : so farre are they from admitting , or patronizing mine excesse . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , I confesse with Origen ; they deserue to be honoured , Contra Cels. 1. but not 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , or 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , not to be worshipped or adored : 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , is 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . The honour they expect , the most and greatest we can doe vnto them , saith Chrysostome , To. 5. pa. 625. is to goe after them in their worth , and to be followers of their good deseruings . Nazianzene enlargeth himselfe much vpon this point , and concludeth : Hoc honorum genere magis oblectatur Cyprianus , O●at . 18. quam cunctis alijs in vnum congestis . Haec et cum apud Homines versaretur , vita moribusque praesiabat : et absens per nostram vocem omnibus in mandatis dat , quam obsecro ne contemnatis , si tamen aut illius in dolorum acerbitatibus tolerantiae , ac certaminum pro virtutis defensione susceptorum , aut etiam mei , qui hac legatione fungor apud vos vlla habetur ratio . Nazianzene did not in this , nor doe we with him , and all antiquity , vnder-valew their worth , or esteeme lightly of their atchieuements . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 . Men , saith Chrysostome , that feare GOD , ●o. 5. pa. 721. when they refuse to adore the Creature , doe not vilifie or despise the Creature , but rather giue honour to the Creator . The godly man hateth not the Sunne , because with Pagan Infidels he adoreth not the light thereof , but giueth that respect thereto which is due . Thus wee answere in this point of Inuocation , and make our Apology against detraction , for dishonouring or disparaging Gods holy Saints . That GOD , glorious in them now and euer , grant vs of his grace , through their Intercession for his Church in Christ , that we may so passe through things temporall , that finally wee loose not things eternall : but together with all the Saints departed , may rise againe to immortall Life .

FINIS .
Errata .

Pag. 2. lin. 29. meere , p. 3. l. 3. loue , l. 17. miserentur , p. 8. l. 1. alongè , p. 14 - l 2 reserued , p. 20 l. 7. nor man , p. 26.14 . which doth , l. 27 , cas●e dis. patch , p. 35.27 , know not what , p. 37.19 . 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 : p. 107. l. 11 , ius petes , p. 110. l. pen . Non enim , p. 136. l. 14 , possunt , p. 145. l. 8. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p 146. l. 5. vnto , p. 178 , l. 8 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , l. 23. for vs to , p. 182. l. 13 , to a Christian Virgin ber , l. 28. and of , p. 189. l. 15. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , l. 18. 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , p. 210. l. 19. Exercitui .

END