The co[n]futacyon of Tyndales answere made by syr Thomas More knyght lorde chau[n]cellour of Englonde

¶ The confutacyon of Tyndales answere made by syr Thomas More knyght lorde chauncellour of Englonde .

¶ Prentyd at London By wyllyam Rastell . 1532 CVM PRIV 〈…〉

¶ The preface to the crysten reader .

OUr lorde sende vs nowe some yeres as plentuouse of good corne , as we haue hadde some yeres of late plentuouse of euyll bokes . For they haue growen so faste and sprongen vppe so thykke , full of pestylent errours and pernyciouse he resyes , that they haue enfected and kylled I fere me mo sely symple soules , them the famyne of the dere yeres haue destroyed bodyes . And surely no lytle cause there is to drede , that the great haboundaunce and plentye of the tone , is no lytle cause and occasyon of the great derth and scarcite of the tother . For syth that our lorde of his especyall prouydence , vseth temporally to punyshe the hole people for the synnys of some parte , to compell the good folke to forbere & abhorre the noughty , wherby they maye brynge them to amendement and auoyd them selfe the cōtagyon of theyr companye : wysdome were it for vs to perceyue , the lyke as folke beginne now to delyte in fedyng theyr soules of the venemouse caryn of those poysened heresyes , of whyche maye well be veryfyed the wordes of holy wryt : 4. Regum . 4. deth is in the pot / our lorde lykewyse agaynwarde to reuenge yt wythall , begynneth to wythdraw hys gracyouse hande from the frutes of the erth , mynyshynge the fertylyte both in corne and catell , and bryngynge all in derth myche more then men can remedy or fully fynde out the cause . And yet bysyde thys somwhere he sendeth warre , sykenesse , and mortalyte / to punyshe in the fleshe that odyouse and hatefull synne of the soule , that spoyleth the frute from all maner of vertues , I meane vnbylyefe , false fayth and infydelyte , and to tell you all at ones in playne englyshe heresye . And I say that god nowe bygynneth . For I fere me surely that excepte folke begynne to reforme that fawte the soner / god shall not fayle in suche wyse to go forwarde , that we shall well perceyue and fele by th encreace of our greyfe , that all this gere hytherto is but a begynning yet . The prophete Hely as it is wryten in the thyrde boke of kynges , for the infydelyte and idolatry that then was vsed in Israell , by his hartye prayour made vnto god , kepte that whole cuntre from rayne by the space of .iii. yeres and a halfe / not of euyll wyll or malyce , but of deuocyon and pytye / by the payne & pynchynge of the bodyes , to compell men to remember theyre soules , whyche ellys were in parell of peryshynge by false idolatrye .

Nowe all be yt that these bolde shamelesse heretyques , haue of longe whyle neyther letted nor ceaced , falsely to insymulate and accuse the chyrche of god / callynge all good crysten people idolatres for honourynge of sayntes and reuerent byhauour vsed at theyr images : yet that haue they done so farre agaynste theyr owne conscyence ( by whyche them selfe well wote that the chirche vseth to sayntes and ymages none honour but ordinate / not honouryng images but for the sayntes sake , nor sayntes but for the sake of god / & neyther image as saynte , nor saynt as god ) & this knoweth I say Tyndale hym selfe so well , and thereby so farre hath rayled agaynste his owne conscyence / that nowe at the laste in his answere to my boke , he retreateth so farre bakke , that he reuoketh almoste all that euer he sayde byfore / & is fayne now to graunte that cristen men may haue images , & knele byfore them to / as ye shall hereafter se when we shall come to the place .

But we on the tother syde saye playnely vnto them , that the thynges wherwyth they corrupte the worlde , are of infydelyte and faythlesse idolatrye , the very moste cursed kynde . The chyefe euyll in an idole was , that yt bare the name of god , eyther yt selfe or the deuyll that yt represented / and beyng so reputed and wurshyped for god , robbed the reuerence and deuoute honour fro god .

Now when Tyndale calleth his heresyes by the name of fayth , and maketh men serue the deuyll whyle they wene to serue god : what abomynable idolatrye is this ?

If yt be idolatry to put truste in the deuyll , & serue the deuyll wyth fayth : yt is worse then idolatrye to make men wene they serue god wyth fayth whyle they dyspyte hym wyth a false bylyefe .

And yf it be very infydelyte to do as the Turkes do , byd men byleue in Machometes alchoran : yt is more infydelyte to do as Tyndale hath done , purposely mysse translate Crystes holy gospell , to sette forth heresyes as euyll as the Alchorane .

And yf it be idolatry to do as the paynems dyd , make an idole god : yt muste nedes be myche worse idolatry to do as these heretykes do , that call god the cause of all euyll , and therby make god not a vayne idole but a very deuyll .

And what can be worse kynd of infydelyte● then to make bokes of heresyes , and call them the ryght fayth ?

And what more abomynable infydelyte then to abuse the scrypture of god to the colour of theyr false bylyef● ?

And what can be a worse bylyefe , then to byleue that the sacramentes that god hath ordeyned by his holy spyryte be but inuencyons of man , or as Tyndale sayth of confessyon , but inuencyon of the deuyll ?

And what can be worse bylyefe then to byleue that goddes word is not to be byleued , but yf yt be put in wrytyng ?

Or what can be a worse bylyefe , then to byleue the mennis good wurkes be they neuer so well done , be yet nothyng worthe , nor the man neuer the better for them , nor no rewarde for them commyng towarde man in heuen ?

Or what can be a wurse bylyefe them to byleue that a man doth wronge to pray for hys fathers soule ?

Or what can be a wurse bylyefe , then to byleue that a man may as sleyghtely regarde whytson sonday● as hokke monday / and as boldely eate fleshe on good frydaye , as on shroue tuysdaye ?

And what can be a wurse bylyefe , then to byleue that none other synne can dampne a man , but onely lakke of bylyefe ?

And yf yt be idolatrye to do as the Paynems do , geue wurshyppe vnto an idole : how myche is yt wurse then idolatrye to do as Tyndale doth , forbed vs to geue wurshippe to the very bodye and blessed blood of god in the holy sacrament of the auter ?

These pestylent infydelytees , and these abominable kyndes of idolatryes / farre excede● and passe , and incomparbly more offende the maieste of our lorde god , then all the secretynge vppe of Beel , and Baal , and Belzabub , and all the deuyls in hell . wherfore lyke as in other places where these heresyes haue taken deper rote , & ben more sprede abrode / god hath taken more depe and sore vengeaunce , not onely by derth and deth but also by batayle and sworde : so is yt to be fered that for the receypte of these pestylent bokes , our lorde sendeth vs some lakke of corne and catayle for a begynnynge / and wyll not fayle but yf our faute be mended to sende vs as sore punishement as he hath sent all redy , into suche other places as wolde not be by lyke warnynge mended / accordynge as he sayth in the .xxvi. chapyter of Leuiticus , where he speketh in this wyse : If ye wyll not geue eare vnto me , nor fulfyll all my commaundementes but sette my lawes at naught , despyce my iudgementes , and leue those thynges vndone that are by me ordeyned , and breake my pacte and couenaunt : then wyll I agaynwarde do these thynges folowynge vnto you . I wyll hastely vysyte you wyth penury and brennynge hete or feuer , whych shall sore vexe and greue your eyes , and consume you euen to the deth . Ouer thys ye shall sowe your sede in vayne / for your ennemyes shall deuoure it . I shall also set my face agaynst you , and ye shall fall byfore your aduersaryes , and be made subiectes vnto them that hate you . ye shall f●e where no man chaseth you . And yf ye wyll not yet for all thys obaye me : I shall for your synnes adde & put to these plages seuenfolde more / and I shall trede downe the pryde of your stobernes and so forth .

And who doth more properly fall in the daunger of this commynacyon and threte , then they that dyspyse Crystes sacramentes , whyche are hys holy ordynaunces , and a great parte of Cristes new law and testament . And who shall lesse set by hys commaundementes / then they that vppon the boldenesse of onely fayth , set all good workes at nought , & lytell force the daunger of theyr euyll dedes , vppon the boldenesse that a bare fayth and sleyght repentaunce wythout shryfte or penaunce suffyseth / and that no vow made to god can bynde a man to lyue chast , nor let a monke fro maryage / all whyche thynges wyth many pestylent errours besyde , these abomynable bookes of Tyndale and hys felowes teche vs .

Of these bokes of heresyes there be so many made with in these few yeres , what by Luther hym selfe and by hys felowes , and afterwarde by the new sectes sprongen out of his , whych lyke the chyldren of vippara wold now gnaw out theyr mothers bely : that the bare names of those bokes were almoste inough to make a boke / & of euery sort of those bokes be some brought into thys realme and kepte in huker muker , by some shrewd maysters that kepe them for no good .

Besyde the bookes of latyn , french , and douch , in which there are of these euyll sectes an innumerable sorte : there are made in the englysshe tonge , Fyrst Tyndales new testament father of them all by reason of hys false translatyng . And after that the fyue bookes of Moyses translated by the same man / we nede not dowt in what maner , when we know by what man and for what purpose .

Then haue ye hys introduceyon into saynt Poules pystle , wyth whyche he introduceth and bryngeth hys readers in to a false vnderstandynge of saynte Poule / makynge them among many other heresyes byleue , that saynt Poule were in the mynde that onely fayth were alway suffycyent for saluacyon , and the mennys good workes were nothynge worth , nor could no thanke deserue nor no reward in heuen , though they were wroughte in grace . And these thynges teacheth Tyndale as the mynde of saynt Poule / where saynt Poule sayeth hym selfe that they whyche so mysse constre hym to the deprauynge of mennys good workes , be well worthye damnacyon .

Then haue we by Tyndale the wykked mammona / by whyche many a man hath ben bygyled and brought into many wykked heresyes , whyche thynge ( sauynge that the deuyll is redy to putte out mennes yien that are contente wyllyngly to wax blynde ) were ellys in good fayth to me no lytle wonder / for neuer was there made a more folyshe frantyque boke .

Then haue we Tindales boke of obedience / whereby we be taught to dysobaye the doctryne of Crystes catholyque chyrch , and set his holy sacramentes at nought .

Then haue we fro Tyndale the fyrste pystle of saynte Iohn in suche wyse expowned , that I dare say that blessed apostle rather then his holy wordes were in suche a sense byleued of all Crysten people , hadde leuer his pystle hadde neuer ben put in wrytynge .

Then haue we the supplycacyon of beggers , a pytuouse beggerly boke , wherin he wolde haue all the soules in purgatory begge all about for nought .

Then haue we from George Iaye otherwyse called clerke , a goodly godly pystle / wherein he teacheth dyuerse other heresyes , but specyally that mennys vowes and promyses made of chastyte , be not lawfull nor can bynde no man in conscyence , but he may wedd when he wyll .

And thys man consyderynge that when a man teacheth one thynge and doth hym selfe a nother , the people sette the lesse by his preachynge : determyned therfore wyth hym self that he wolde of his preachynge , she● hymselfe ensample . And therfore beynge prest● , he hath ●ygyled a woman and wedded her / the pore woman I wene vnware that he ys preste . How be yt yf yt be not done all redy / yt is well lykely now that but if god be her speciall guyde , he shall by laysore worke her and wynne her to his owne heresye .

Then haue ye an exposycyon also vppon the .vii. chapyter of saynt Poules pystle to the Corinthyes / by whyche exposycyon in lykewyse prestes , freres , monkes , & nounes be taught that euangelycall lyberty , that they may runne out a caterwawynge , and so wow and wedde and lawfully lyue in lechery .

That worke hath no name of the maker but some wene yt was frere Roy / whych when he was fallen in heresy , then founde yt vnlawfull to lyue in chastyte , and ranne out of hys order , and hath synnes sought many a false vnlyefull way to lyue by / wherin he made so many chaunges , that as Bayfeld a nother heretyque & late burned in smythfeld tolde vnto me / he made a mete ende at laste , and was burned in Portyngale .

Th●n haue we the examynacyon of Thorpe put forth as it is sayd by George Constantine ( by whom there hath ben I wote well of that sorte grete plentye sent into this realme ) In that boke the heretyke that made it as a communycacyon bytwene the bysshoppe and his chapellayns and hym selfe / maketh all the pattyes speke as hym selfe lyketh / & layeth nothyng spoken agaynst his heresyes , but such as hym self wolde seme solempnly to soyle . whose boke when any good c●ysten man redeth , that hath eyther lernynge or any naturall wytte / shall not onely be well able to perceyue hym for a folysshe heretyke , & his argumentes easy to answere / but shall also se that he sheweth hym selfe a false lyar in hys rehersall of the mater / wherin he maketh the tother parte somtyme speke for hys commodyte , such maner thynges as no man wolde haue done that were not a very wylde gose .

Then haue we Ionas made ●ut by Tyndale / a boke that who so delyte therin shall stande in parell that Ionas was neuer so swalowed vppe wyth the whale , as by the delyte of that booke a mannes soule maye be so swalowed vppe by the deuyll , that he shall neuer haue the grace to gete out agayne .

Then haue we by Tyndale also the answere to my dy●loge / wherof I shall nothynge n●w nedeto saye , byc●●●● the confutacyon of that answere is the mater of my present boo●e .

Then haue we also the boke of Fryth agaynste purgatorye / th errours of whyche boke I shall hereafter god wyllynge declare you .

Then haue ye a boke of Luther translated into englyshe in the name of Bryghtwell , but as I am enformed the boke was translated by Fryth / a boke of suche sorte as Tyndale neuer made a more folyshe , nor more full of false lyes . And surely Frythes prologe , yf yt be his as yt ys sayde / ys ryght sutely and a very mete couer for suche a cuppe , as bryngeth the people a draught of dedely poysen .

Then haue we the practyse of prelates / wherin Tyndale had wente to haue made a specyall shewe of hys hygh worldely wytte / and that men sholde haue sene therin that there were nothynge done amonge prynces , but that he was fully aduertysed of all the secretes / and that so farreforth , that he knew the pryuy practyse made betwene the kynges hyghnes and the late lorde cardynall , and the reuerende father Cuthbert then bishoppe of London , and me / that yt was dyuysed wylyly , that the cardynall sholde leue the chauncellourshyppe to me and the byshopryche of Durhm̄ to my sayde lorde of London for a whyle , tyll he lyste hym selfe to take them both agayne . was not this a wyly dryft trow you ? whyche , whyle euery man well seeth there was no man so madde to tell Tyndale , no man dowteth , but that Tyndale dyuysed yt of his owne imagynacyon / and then nedeth no man to doute what maner a brayne Tyndale hath , that dremeth suche frantyque dryftes .

Then haue we now come forth the boke of frere Barns somtyme doctour in Camdrydge / whyche was for heresye byfore this tyme abiured , and is at this daye comen to the realme by saufe conducte , whyche at his humble suyte the kynges hyghnesse of his blessed disposycyon condescended to graunte hym / to th ende that yf there myght yet any sparke of grace be founden in hym , yt myghte be kepte , kyndeled , and encreaced , rather then the man to be caste away . whyche manner of crysten zele and pryncely benygnyte hys grace hadde byfore vsed , both to Rycharde Bayfeld and George Constantine , whych came ouer hyther wythout saufe conducte , vppon the onely truste of his gracyouse forgyuenesse , and had yt . And theruppon to by and by both twayne deceyptefully dyd abuse his goodnesse , & brought in agayn mo of Tyndales bokes and false heresyes a freshe / whereof as god hath of his iustyce synnys requytte the tone , so mote his mercy by grace amende the tother .

But to speke of frere Barns booke , surely of all theyr bookes that yet came abrode in englysshe ( of all whych was neuer one wyse nor good ) was neuer none yet so bad , so folysshe , nor so false as hys , as it hath synnes hys comynge ben playnely proued in hys face / and that in such wyse , that when the bokes that he cyteth and alledgeth in hys booke were brought forth before hym , and hys ignoraunce shewed hym hym selfe dyd in dyuerse thynges confesse hys ouersyghte● and clerely knowleged that he had myssetaken and wronge vnderstanden the places . And was in suche wyse fynally confounded wyth shame / that he was in a mameryng whyther he wolde retourne agayne ouer the see , or tary styll here and renounce hys heresyes agayne , and tourne agayn to Crystes catholyke chyrche . And therfore he desyred that he myghte haue a lerned man then present assygned vnto hym , for the ferther instruccyon of hys conscyence , whyche hys request was graunted hym , and what wyll ferther come theron god knoweth . If god gyue hym the grace to amende , euery good man wyll be glad therof . If he haue so farre gone agaynste goddes trewth , & therby greued god in such wyse , that god haue all redy gyuen hym ouer for euer / or ellys that though god offer hys grace agayne the malyce of the mannes wyll wythstande it yet and reiecte it : it is not then to be dowted , but god wyll fynde a tyme for hym well inough to shew his iustyce on hym , as he hath done vppon such other / & namely of late in Swycherland vppon zuinglius , which was the fyrst that brought Barns heresye thyther , concernyng the sacrament of the aulter . But as for hense he shall I am sure haue leue to departe saufe , accordynge to the kynges saufe conducte . And yet hath he so demeaned hym selfe synnys hys comynge hyther / that he hath clerely broken & forfayted hys saufe conducte , and lawfully myghte be burned for hys heresyes , yf we wolde laye his heresyes and his demeanure syth hys comynge hyther both twayne vnto his charge . But lette hym go thys ones , for god shall fynde hys tyme full well .

Then haue we ferther yet besyde Barns boke , the a b c for chyldren . And bycause there is no grace therin / left we shold lakke prayours , we haue the prymer , and the ploughmans prayour , and a boke of other small deuocyons , and then the hole psalter to . After the psalter chyldren were wont to go to theyr Donat & theyr Accydence / but now they go strayte to scrypture . And therto haue we as a Donat the boke of the pathwaye to scrypture / and for an Accidence bycause we sholde be good scolers shortely and be sone spedde , we haue the whole summe of scrypture in a lytle boke / so that after these bokes well lerned , we be mete for Tyndales pentateukes , and Tyndales testament , and all the tother hygh he resyes that he , and Iay , and Fryth , and frere Barns teche in all theyr bokes bysyde / of all whyche heresyes the seed is sowen , and pretyly sprongen vppe in these lytle bokes byfore . For the Prymer and Psalter prayours & all / were translated and made in this mane● , by none other but heretykes .

The Psalter was translated by George Iay the preste● that is wedded now / and I here say the Prymer to wherein the seuen psalmes be set in wythout the lateny , leste folke shold pray to sayntes . And the Dirige is leste out clene / lefte a man myght happe to pray theron for hys fathers soule .

In theyr calendar byfore theyr deuout prayers , they haue sette vs a new saynt / syr Thomas Hitton the heretyke that was burned in kent , of whom I shall tell you more after . Hym haue they set in on saynt Mathy is euen , be the name of saynt Thomas the martyr .

A longe worke wold yt be to reherse you all theyr bokes , for there be yet mo then I know . Agaynste all whyche the kynges hygh wysedome polytyquely prouyded , in that his hyghnes by his proclamacions forbode any maner englysh bokes prented byionde the see to be brought into this realme , or any to be solde prented● wythin this realme , but yf the name of the prenter and his dwellynge place were sette vppon the boke .

But yet so is yt as I sayde byfore , that of these vngracyouse bokes full of pestylent poysened heresyes , that haue in other realmes all redy kylled by scysmes and warre many thousande bodyes , and by synfull errours , & abomynable heresyes many mo thousand soules : haue now a few malycyouse myscheuouse persons broughte into this realme / and labour and enforce them selfe in all that euer they may , to corrupte and infecte all good and vertuouse people .

Nor no man is there any where lyuynge more studyouse and besye to do hym selfe good / them those enuyouse wreches be laboryouse and feruent to do all other men harme , in bodye , substaunce and soule .

There be fledde out of this realme for heresy a few vngracyouse folke / what maner folke theyr wrytynge and theyre lyuynge sheweth . For the captayns be prestes , monkes , and freres that neyther say masse nor matens , nor neuer come at ●hirche / takyng styll of fayth and full of false heresyes , wold seme Crystes apostles & play the deuels dysours / spekyng mych of the spirite with no more deuocyon then dogges / dyuerse of them , prestes , monkes , and freres , not let to wedde harlottes and then call theym wyues . And when they haue ones vyleyned the sacrament of matirmony / then wold they make vs violate the sacrament of the auter to , tellynge vs as Tyndale doth , that yt is synne to do the blessed body of Cryste in that sacrament any honour or reuerence , but onely take yt for a token .

Now when theyr chyefe captayns be suche / we shall not nede to dowte of what sorte we shall reken the remanaunt . These felowes that naught had here , and therfore noughte caryed hense , nor nothynge fyndynge there to lyue vppon / be yet sustayned and mayntened wyth monye sent them by some euyll dysposed persones oute of this realme thyther / and that for none other entent but to make them sytte & seke oute heresyes , and spedyly send them hyther .

whych bokes all be yt that they neyther can be there prented without great coste , nor here solde wythout great aduenture & parell : yet ceace they not with mony sent from hense , to prente them there & send them hyther by the whole fattes full at ones / and in some places lokynge for no lucre , caste them abrode by nyght / so great a pestylent pleasure haue some dyuelysh people caught , wyth the labour , trauayle , coste , charge varell , harme , and hurte of them selfe , to seke the d●●●●●cci●n of other . As the deuyll hath ●●edely delyght to bygyle good people , and brynge theyr soules into euerl●stynge torment wythout any maner wynnynge , and not wythout fy●all encreace of his owne eternall payne : so do these heretykes the deuyls dyscyples bysette theyr whole pleasure and study to theyr owne fynall damnacyon , in the t●aynynge of symple soules to hell by theyr dyuelyshe here●yes .

Myche they crye oute agaynste the clergye / sayeng that the prestes loue to reygne in mennys conscyence . But they them self shew that when they haue made the deuyll reygne in a mannys conscyence , so farre forth that he hath no conscyence to eate fleshe on good frydaye , nor to caste Crystes crosse in the ●anell , nor to throw his blessed bodye out of the pyx : then after that lykewyse as the false preachers that were Iewes , labored to haue all crysten people circumcysed , to th entent that as saynte Poule sayth they myghte glorye in theyr fleshe / so be these arche heretyques very glad & great glorye they take when they may here that any man is brought to burnynge thorow theyr bokes . Then they boste that they haue done a great maystrye , and say they haue made a martyr / when theyr poysened bokes haue kylled the crysten man both in bodye and soule .

Thus reioyced Tyndale in the deth Hytton / of whose burnyng he bosteth in his answere to my dyaloge , where he wryteth therof , that where I sayde that I hadde neuer founden nor herd of any of them , but that he wolde forswere to saue his lyfe , I hadde herd he sayeth of syr Thomas Hytton , whom the bishoppes of Rochester and Canterbury s●ew at maydstone .

Of thys man they so hyghly reioyce / that they haue as I sayde sette his name in the calendar byfore a boke of theyr englyshe prayours , by the name of saynt Thomas the martyr , in the vigyle of the blessed apostle saynte Mathye , the xxiii . daye of February / and haue putte out for hym the holy doctour and gloryouse martyr saynte Polycarpus , the blessed byshoppe and the dyscyple of saynte Iohn th euangelyste / for that was his day in dede , and so is it in some calendars marked .

Now to th entent that ye may somwhatse what good crysten fayth syr Thomas Hytton was of , this newe saynte of Tyndales canonysacyon , in whose burnynge Tyndale so gayly gloryeth , and whyche hath his ho●y daye so now appoynted to hym , that saynte Po●●●arpus muste geue hym place in the calendar : I shall some what shew you what holsome heresyes this holy martyr helde .

Fyrste ye shall vnderstande that he was a preste / and fallynge to Luthers secte , and after that to the secte of frere Huskyn , and zwynglius , caste of matens and masse and all dyuyne seruyce / and so bycame an apostle sent to an fro bytwene our englyshe heretyques beyonde the see , and suche as were here at home .

Now happed it so that after he had visyted here his holy congregacyons , in dyuers corners and luskes lanes , and comforted them in the lorde to stande styffe wyth the deuyll in theyr errours and heresyes / as he was goynge bakke agayne at graues ende , god consyderyng the greate labour that he had taken all redy , and determynyng to brynge his bysynes to his well deserued ende / gaue hym sodaynly such a fauour and so greate a grace in the vysage , that euery man that behelde hym toke hym for a thefe . For where as there had ben certayne lynen clothes pylfred away that were hangyng on an hedge , and syr Thomas Hytton was walkyng not far of suspycyously in the medytacyon of hys heresyes : the people dowtynge that the beggerly knaue had stolen the clowtes , fell in questyon wyth hym and serched hym / and so fownde they certayne letters secretely conuayed in hys cote , wryten from euangelycall brethern here , vnto the euangelycall heretykes beyonde the see . And vppon those letters founden / he was wyth hys letters brought before the moste reuerende father in god the archebyshoppe of Canterbury / and afterwarde as well by hys lordshyppe as by the reuerende father the bysshoppe of Rochester examyned , & after for hys abomynable heresyes delyuered to the secular handes and burned .

In hys examynacyon he refused to be sworne to saye trouth / affermynge that neyther bysshoppe nor 〈◊〉 hadde authoryte to compell hym to swere . whych poynte all though it be a false heresye / yet is it lykely that he refused the othe , rather of frowardnesse then of any respecte that he hadde eyther in kepynge or brekynge . For neuer coulde I fynde heretyke yet , that any conscyence had in any othe . And of trouth Tindale in his answere to my dyaloge , techeth them that they maye breke theyr othe and be forsworen wythout any scruple at all .

Hys father and hys mother he wolde not be aknowen of what they were / they were some so good folke of lykelyhed , that he coulde not abyde the glory●

He wolde not be a knowen that hym selfe was preste , but sayed that he had by the space of .ix. yeres ben beyonde the see , and there lyued by the ioyners crafte . How be it he sayd that he had allwaye as hys leysour wolde gyue hym leue , and as he coude fynde oportunyte in places where he came , taught the gospell of god after hys owne mynde and hys owne opynyon , not forcyng of the determynacion of the chyrch / & sayd that he intended to hys power so to perceuerstyll .

Of his techyng these thinges were parte . Fyrst as for baptysme , he agreed it for a sacrament necessarye to saluacyon / how be it euery lay person he sayd myght as well baptise as a preste , were the chyld in necessyte or not / and that the forme of baptysyng vsed in the chyrch were mych better yf it were spoken in englysshe .

Of matrymony whyther it were a sacrament or not he sayed he wyste nere . But he sayed yet that it was a thynge necessary and of crysten people to be obserued and kepte . How be it as for the solempnysacyon of maryage at chyrche he agreed it for good● but sayd it neded not . The man ment by lykelyhed that it was good inough to wed vppon a cusshyon when the dogges be a bedde , as theyr prestes wedde I wene where theyr persons be knowen . For ellys they let not to wedde openly at chyrche , and take the hole parysshe for wytnesses of theyr bestely bychery .

The extreme vnccyon or anelynge and confyrmacyon / he sayed be no sacramentes of the chyrche , nor be nothynge necessarye to the soule .

The sacrament of order he sayed is no sacrament of the chyrche , nor was neuer ordeyned by god in the new testament , but onely by man .

The masse he sayed sholde neuer be sayed . For he sayed that to saye masse after the maner of the chyrche , is rather synne then vertue .

As for confessyon made to a preste , he sayed nothynge profyteth the soule / nor penaunce enioyned of the preste vnto the penytent confessed , is nothynge necessary .

Purgatory he denyed / ●ayed also that neyther prayour nor fastynge for the soules departed , can do them any good .

To vow and entre into any relygyon approued by the law , he sayed auayleth not / but he sayed that all that entre into relygyon synne in so doynge .

He helde also that no man hath any fre wyll after that he hath onys synned .

He held that to say any diuyne seruyce after the ordynaunce of the chyrche , auayleth nothynge / and that all dyuyne seruyce maye be lefte vnsayed wythout any synne .

He helde that all the images of Cryste and hys sayntes , sholde be throwen out of the chyrche .

He helde also that what so euer the 〈◊〉 or the generall consayle make , besyde that that is expressely commaunded in scrypture / euery man may lawfully breke it without any maner synne at all mortall or venyall eyther .

He held also that yt is not lawfull neyther for the kynge of England , nor for any other cristen prince / to make any law or statute for the punyshement of any thefte or any other cryme , by whyche lawe any man sholde suffer deth . For he sayde that all suche lawes be contrarye to the gospell , whyche wyll no man to dye .

As touchynge the blessed sacrament of the auter , he sayd yt is a necessary sacrament / but he helde that after the consecracyon , there was none other thynge therin , but onely that very substaunce of materyall brede & wyne / and so he sayde he fermely byleued , and that he wolde holde that opynyon to the deth .

Fynally holdyng all these abomynable heresyes , wyth yet dyuerse other mo of lyke sewte & sorte / he sayd that he was very certayne and sure , that he hadde the grace of god with hym , and that the holy goost was wythin hym .

And so was he after myche fauour shewed hym , & myche labour charytably taken for the sauynge of hym / delyuered in conclusyon for his obstinacye to the seculare handes , and burned vppe in hys false fayth and heresyes , wherof he lerned the great parte of Tyndales holy bokes / and nowe the spiryte of errour and lyenge , hath taken his wreched soule wyth hym strayte from the shorte fyre to the fyre euerlastyng .

And this is ●o syr Thymas Hytton the dyuyls stynkyng martyr / of whose burnynge Tyndale maketh boste . wherfore syth Tyndale aloweth his cause / he must nedes defend his artycles . And now wote I ●ell that some of those artycles Tyndale hath hym self geuen ouer at laste for shame / as the artycle agaynst images , and the artycle agaynst the lybertye of mannys fre wyll / wherin he bereth me in hande in his answere to my dyaloge , that I bylye Luther . But when I shall come to the place / I shall lette you se Luthers owne wordes in that poynte so playne , that ye shall not meruayle though Tyndale were ashamed of hys mayster . And yet shall ye meruayle that Tyndale was so shamelesse to denye the thynge , whyche ye shall se so playnely proued .

But ye se that of thys holy martyr / Tyndale hath not so great cause to glorye , but that he may scrape out hys name agayne out of the calendare , and restore the blessed byshoppe saynte Policarpus agayne into his place .

Then haue ye hadde here burned synnys at London of late Rycharde Bayfelde , late a monke and a preste , whyche fell to heresye and was abiured / and after that lyke a dogge returnynge to his vomyte , and beynge fledde ouer the see , and sendynge from thense Tyndales heresyes hyther wyth many myscheuouse sortes of bokes : hadde yet the kynges gracyouse forgyuenes / & as yt was after proued bothe by other mennys and his owne confessyon to , was occupyed aboute two thynges at ones , that is to wyt both in sewyng for remyssyon and perdon of hys offence for bryngynge in those bokes , & therwith also in sellyng them here styll secretely , & sendyng ouer for mo , with whych at last he was taken . And to reherse his heresyes nedeth lytle / the bokes that he brought well sheweth them , and his holy lyfe well declareth them / when● beynge both a preste and a monke , he went about two wyues , one in Brabande , a nother in Englande . what he ment I can not make you sure , whyther he wold be sure of the tone yf the tother sholde happe refuse hy● / or that he wolde haue them both , the tone here , the tother there / or ellys both in one place , the tone bycause he was preste , the tother bycause he was monke .

Of Bayfeldes burnynge hath Tyndale no great cause to glory . For though Tyndales bokes brought hym to burnynge / yet was he not so constante in his euangelycall do●tryne , but that after that he was taken , all the whyle that he was not in vtter dyspayre of perdon / he was well contente to haue forsworen yt agayne , and letted not to vtter hys euangelicall brethern both it England and ellys where , causynge some of them to be taken / as George Constantyne ere he escaped , was redy to haue in worde at the leste wyse abiured all that holy doctryne / what his herte was god and he know , & peraduenture the deuyll to yf he entended otherwyse . But surely there was entended toward hym somwhat more good , then his dealynge had byfore deserued . And so mych the more fauour was there mynded hym , in that he semed very penytent of his mysse vsynge of hym selfe , in fallynge to Tyndales heresyes agayne . For whyche he knowleged hym selfe worthy to be hanged , that he hadde so falsely abused the kynges graciouse remissyon and pardon geuen hym byfore / and hadde for all that in the whyle both bought and solde of those heretycall bokes , and secretely set forth those heresyes , wherof he shewed hym selfe so repentaunt , that he vttered and dysclosed dyuers of hys companyons , of whom there are some abiured synnys , and that he wyste well were abiured before , namely Rycharde Necton whyche was by Constantynes deteccyon take and commytted to Newgate / where except he happe to dye byfore in pryson , he standeth in grete paryll to be ere it be longe , for hys fallynge agayne to Tindales heresyes burned . And thus it semed by the maner of George Constantyne , whyle he was here in pryson / that he so sore dyd forthynke hys errours and heresyes , and so perceyued the pestylent poyson of them / that he thoughte it better that such as were infecte therwyth myghte be by the meane of hys deteccyon amended , and wyth the losse of hys body the soule cured , then bothe twayne caste awaye / or yf the man were peraduenture of hard herte and malycyouse mynde incurable , he thought it were then better to sende hym to the deuyll alone , then let hym lyue and drawe many other wyth hym .

Thys good mynde it semeth that Constantyne had then and therfore was there good hope of hys amendement . And peraduenture the man hadde amended and standen styll in grace , yf some euyll consayle ●ad not comen at hym / of which there was lefte vnsought no deuelyshe inuencyon or meane to sende hym / in so mych that one of the letters I fortuned to intercepte my selfe wryten vnto hym , by one Iohn Byrte otherwyse callynge hym selfe Adryane , otherwyse Iohn bokebynder , & yet otherwyse now I can not tell you what .

Of trouth George constantyne after he hadde confessed vnto a faythfull seruaunt of myne to be declared to me , that Necton had of his deliuery many of those heretycall bokes : he sent worde forthwyth to Nec●on , that he sholde sende the bokes home to me● whyche yf he dyd & that I myghte haue yet seen sure tokens of amendement in the man / Constantyne perceyued well that he had ben yet lykely to haue had fauour shewed hym . But when that Necton had ones made Byrte of hys counsayle / they dyuysed bytwene them that Necton sholde not do so in no wyse , affermynge to Constantyne that it coude not be done / and happely it coude not in dede , for peraduenture they were all solde all redy . How be it Necton now syth he was taken sayed that hys wyfe had burned them . But it is well knowen that Necton had hym selfe and a man of hys also , solde many such bokes of heresye , bothe in London & in othey shyres syth his abiuracyon . But how so euer the mater was / Byrte by hys letter aduysed Constantyne yf he myghte possyble to call bakke hys confessyon agayne / wherin I thynke it good that ye here hys very letter it selfe . Lo in these wordes he wrote .

The grace and peace of our sauyour Iesus be with you good brother Constantyne . Syr as for the mater that ye wold haue brought to passe , will not be in no maner wyse / the person is not at home that shold receyue the stuffe , and delyuer it accordynge to vnto your mynde . Therfore yf ye haue not spoken so farre in the mater that it maye be none preiudyall or hurte vnto you : I wolde ye shold go no ferther in the mater / but euyn as a man armed wyth fayth , go forth in your mater boldely and put them to theyr proues . As for one is none you knowe well by the law of god or man . If there be any thynge that I can do / sende word and ye shall fynde me redy to my power euen to dethe by goddes grace , who I praye longe to preserue you and comforte you in your trouble to the confusyon of all tyrauntes .

Lo here haue ye herde an apostolycall pystle , counsaylynge the man to go bakke wyth the trouth , and arme hym selfe wyth fayth , and make hym stronge to lye lowde and forswere hym selfe yf nede were / for Byrt wyste well I were not lykely to leue and byleue hym at hys bare worde .

Here wyll Byrt peraduenture preche , and brynge vs in the mydwyues of Egypt that saued the chyldren of Israell from Pharao , for whych god gaue them new howses . wherin Byrt and I wyll not myche dyspute . For all be it that god hath gyuen hym no howse ●et , nor it is not all one wyth a lye to saue a yonge innocent babe , and wyth periurye to defende an olde pestylent heretyke / and though saynt Austayn sayth that it is not lawfull to lye for nothyng : yet I tell not my tale to lay a lye so hyghly to any suche mennes charge as these folke be , whose hole secte is nothyng els but lyes / but I reherse you his letter bycause ye shold se what trewth there is in suche folkes wordes .

How be it as for Constantyne as I sayed before , semed in pryson here very penytent , and vtterly mynded to forsake suche heresyes and heretykes for euer . In profe wherof he not onely detected as I sayd hys owne dedes & his felowes , but also studyed and deuysed how those deuelysshe bokes whyche hym selfe and other of hys felowes hadde brought and shypped , myghte come to the bys●hoppes handes to be burned . And therfore he shewed me the shypmannes name that had them , and the markes of the ferdellys , by whych I haue synnys hys escape receyued them . And it maye be by goddes grace , that though the man fledde hense for fere of suche harme as he wyste he hadde well deserued / & yet was nothynge towarde hym , but peraduenture more good then he was ware of : he is yet amended in hys mynde and hath in his harte forsaken all Tyndales heresyes , and so I pray god it be / for I wold be sory that euer Tyndale sholde glory and boste of hys burnynge . How be it in the meane whyle , tyll it maye well appere that he be surely turned to the catholyke fayth agayne , I wyll aduyse all good crysten folke and specyally the kynges subiectes , to forbere and estyew hys company . For the englysshe man whyche shall be founden to be famylyare wyth hym there , byfore hys conuersyon here knowen and proued , maye therby brynge hym selfe in suspycyon of heresye , and happely here therof at hys retournynge hyther .

I here also that Tyndale hyghly reioyceth in the burnyng of Tewkesbery / but I can se no very grete cause why but yf he reken it for a grete glory that the man dyd abyde styll by the stake when he was faste bounden to it . For as for the heresyes he wolde haue abiured them agayne wyth all hys harte , and haue accursed Tyndale to , yf all the myghte haue saued hys lyfe . And so he gaue counsayle vnto one Iamys that was for heresye in pryson wyth hym . For as Iamys hath synnys confessed / Tewkesbery sayed vnto hym , saue you your self and abiure . But as for me bycause I haue abiured byfore , there is no remedy wyth me buth deth . By whych wordes yf he had not ben in dyspayre of lyfe / it well appereth he wold wyth good wyll haue ones abiured , and ones periured agayne . And yet at hys examynacyon he denyed that euer he hadde holden any such opynyons as he was abiured for / notwythstandyng that there were at hys axamynacyon some persons present of myche honestye and wourshyppe , two that had ben present at hys abiuracyon byfore / to whyche also hys owne hand was subscrybed . And afterwarde beynge ferther examyned vppon the same / some he denyed , & some he defended agayne . Amonge other thynges he sayed that he vsed to praye to sayntes , & that he byleued them to be goddes frendes , and that theyr prayours were profytable to vs and well done to praye to them . wheruppon I sayd vnto hym my selfe that I was glad to se hym in that poynte yet amended , and I shewed hym as the trouth was in dede , that I amys helde the contrarye , and that he hadde so greate a truste in Tewkesbery , that I dowted not but when he sholde here that tewkesbery hadde reuoked that poynt , he wolde reuoke it to . As sone as Tewkesbery herd that , he went from it agayne by and by / & that so farre , that fynally he wolde not agre that before the day of dome there were eyther any saynt in heuen , or soule in purgatory , or in hell eyther . Nor the ryght fayth in the sacrament of the aulter wolde he not confesse in no wyse . For which thynges and dyuers other horryble heresy●s , he was delyuered at laste vnto the secular handes and burned , as there was neuer wretche I wene better worthy .

yet is there one thynge notable , and well declarynge what good and cherytable mynde the man dyed in . For● after that he was delyuered vnto the secular handes / neyther whyle he was in pryson nor at the tyme of hys deth , wolde he by his wyll be aknowen of any of hys heresyes vnto any man that asked hym any questyon , but couered and hyd them by all the meanes he coulde make , & labored to make euery man wene , that he had neuer holden any such opynyon . And by thys dealynge euery man maye se that he rought not so mych for his heresyes , nor toke them not in his owne mynde for suche thynges as he so gretely forced whyther they went forwarde or bakwarde , as he wolde fayne leue an opynyon amonge the people that hys iudges had borne hym wrong in hande , & condempned hym for such heresyes as he neuer helde . And what conscyence he had that dyed in that mynde , there is no good man dowteth .

Now was his examynacyon not secrete , but folke inough therat bothe spyrytuall and temporall , and of eyther parte ryght wourshypfull / so that hys malycyouse mynde can in that poynte lytell take effecte . And yet dyd the same Iamys also confesse afterwarde , that Tewkesbery had redde vnto hym wyclyffes wykke● agaynst the blessed sacrament . And ouer that was there founden about hym by the shyryffes offycers in the pryson , a boke of heresye of hys owne hande wrytynge , that is to wyt the boke of Marten Luther , wherin he teacheth men vnder the name of crysten lybertye , to ronne in to the deuyls bo●dage . And in hys howse was founden Tyndales boke of obedyence , whyche he well alowed , and hys wykked boke also of the wykked mammona , sayenge at hys examynacyon , that all the heresyes therin were good and crysten fayth / beynge in dede , as full of false heresyes , and as frantike as euer heretyke made any syth Cryst was borne . And yet all thys notwythstandynge , when he was in the shyryffes warde , and at the tyme of hys deth / he wolde not speke of hys heresyes any thynge , nor say that he had helde and wolde holde thys poynt and that / but handeled hym selfe as couertly as he coude , to make the people wene that he hadde holden no maner opynyon at all / nor neuer had I thynke yf Tyndales vngracyouse bokes had neuer come in hys hande . For whych the pore wreche lyeth now in hell and cryeth out on hym / and Tyndale yf he do not amende in tyme , he is lyke to fynde hym when they come togyther , an hote fyrebronde burnynge at hys bakke , that all the water in the worlde wyll neuer be able to quenche .

Another is there also , whom hys vnhappy bokes haue brought vnto the fyre , Tho. Bylney that was before abiured / whyche was the man of whom wythout name I spake so mych in my dyaloge / whyche beyng conuycte by .xx. wytnesses and aboue , dyd yet stykke styll in hys denyall / & sayd they were all sorsworen , and had vtterly belyed hym .

But god whyche is very trouth , and bryngeth at last alwaye the trouth to lyght , wolde not suffer suche obstynate vntrouth at length to passe vnpunyshed / but of hys endles mercy brought hys body to deth , & gaue hym yet the grace to turne and saue hys soule . For so was it that after dyuerse sermons , whyche he had after hys abiuracyon , and agaynst the prohybycyon gyuen hym vppon hys abiuracyon , made in sundry secrete corners , and some also openly , wherof the bysshoppe yet bycause he herde of none heresye therin had forborne to lay the dysobedyence to hys charge : he went vnto Nor wych , where he had enfected dyuers of the cytye before . And beynge there secretely kepte by a certayne space , had in the whyle resorte vnto an ancresse / and there began secretely to sow hys cocle , and brought vnto her dyuers of Tyndales bokes , and was there taken in the doynge , and the bokes after founden about a nother man that was conuayenge them thense / and these thynges who so herde the hole processe cam in suche wyse to passe , that he coulde nothynge dowbte but that it came to lyght by the very prouysyon of god .

when he came to examynacyon , he waxed styffe and stoborne in hys opynyons . But yet was god so good and gracyous lorde vnto hym , that he was fynally so fully conuerted vnto Cryste and hys trew catholyke fayth that not onely at the fyre , as well in wordes as wrytynge , but also many dayes before / he had reuoked , abhorred , and detested suche heresyes as he before had holden / whych notwythstandyng there lakked not some that were very sory for it / of whom some sayd , and some wrote out of Norwych to London , that he had not reuoked his heresyes at all , but styll had abyden by them . And suche as were not ashamed thus to saye and wryte , beynge afterwarde examyned theruppon , saw the contrary so playnely proued in theyr faces , by suche as at hys execucyon stode by hym , whyle he redde hys reuocacyon hym selfe / that they had in conclusyon nothynge elles to say● but that he redde hys reuocacyon so softely , that they coude not here it . How be it they confessed that he loked vppon a byll and redde it / but they sayd that they coude not tell , whyther it were the byll of hys reuocacyon or not . And yet rehersed they them selfe certayne thynges spoken by hym to the peple at the fyre / wherby they coude not but perceyue well that he reuoked hys errours , albe it that some of them watered his wordes wyth addycyons of theyr owne , as it was well proued before them . They coude not also deny but that forthwyth vppon hys iudgement and hys degradacyon , he kneled downe before the bysshoppes chauncellour in the presence of all the people , and humbly bysought hym of absolucyon from the sentence of excommunycacyon / and wyth his iudgement helde hym selfe well content , and knowleged that he had well deserued to suffer the deth , that he then wyste he sholde .

They coude not say nay but that vppon thys hys humble request and prayour / he was there in presence of all the people assoyled , byfore that he was caryed out of the court / whyche them selfe well wyste wolde neuer haue ben , but yf he hadde reuoked .

yet was there a nother thynge that they coude not deny ( For all be it they sayd they were not therat , yet they hadde herd it in suche wyse , that as they sayd they byleued it to be trew ) and that thynge was suche , as it selfe alone muste nedes make them sure that he had reuoked hys heresyes .

The thynge was thys . He labored and made greate instaunce certayne dayes after hys iudgement / that he myght be suffred to receyue the blessed body of Cryste in forme of brede . wherin the chauncellour made a whyle greate stykkynge and dyffycultye / to the entent that he wolde the better and more clerely perceyue what deuocyon the man hadde there to . And fynally perceyuynge hym to be of a trew perfyte fayth , and hys desyre to procede of a feruent mynde , it was agreed and graunted . And theruppon was he howseled in so trew perfyte fayth , & so grete deuocyon / that euery good crysten man hath greate cause to reioyce therin . And when hys confessour in the ende of the masse , which Bylney full deuowtely herde vppon hys knees , brought vnto hym the body of Cryste vppon the paten of the chalyce , wyth very good and godly exhortacyon vsed vnto hym , that excepte he were in herte as he was in worde and outwarde semblaunce , he shold ellys forbere to receyue that blessed body / syth he sholde then vndowtedly receyue it on hys owne damnacyon : it wold haue gladded any good crysten herte , to haue herd hys faythfull crysten answere / as they reporte & testyfye that were at that tyme by .

Moreouer where as in the presence of that holy sacrament holden yet vppon the paten in the prestes handes / Bylney byfore he receyued it sayd y● colecte , Domine Iesu Christe : when he came at these wordes , ecclesiae tuae pacem & concordiam , he dyuers tymes repeted those wordes wyth tunsyons & knok kynges vppon hys breste / and there vnto god confessed and asked his mercy , that he had so greuousely erred in the point , and so sore offended hym in co●tempnynge hys chyrche . And no meruayle was it , though he had a specyall remorse of that artycle . For the contempnyng of Crystes catholyke knowen chyrche , and the framynge of a secrete vnknowen chyrche that he lerned of Luther and Tyndale / was the very poynt that broughte hym vnto all hys myschyefe , as the very fundacyon wheruppon all other heresyes are byelded . And therfore as the goodnesse of god gaue hym grace to cast vnto the deuyll all hys other errours : so gaue he hym hys specyall grace to haue of that heresye that was and is the grounde of all the remanaunt , moste especyall repentaunce and remorse / wherby we may very well hope and trust that our lorde ( whose hygh goodnesse gaue hym suche grace so fully to repente and reuoke hys heresyes , that he wyth glad herte was content to suffer the fyre for the punysshement of hys offence ) hath of hys infynyte mercy taken and accepted that payne for so farre as he wyll exacte of the pore mannes purgatory / and settyng the merytes of hys owne paynefull passyon therunto , hath forthwyth from the fyre taken hys blessed soule to heuen / where he now prayeth incessauntly for the repentaunce and amendement of all suche as haue ben by hys meanes whyle he lyued , into any suche errours induced or confyrmed . And I fermely truste that goddys grace that effecte wyth that holy mannes prayour wyll worke / and so I praye god it maye .

But thus ye se the Tyndale hath no greate cause to glory of hys martyrs / when that theyr lyuyng is openly nought , theyr opynyons suche as hym selfe wyll abhorre , they redy to abiure agayne yf it myghte saue theyr lyfe , theyr sectes so dysperate that eyther they dare not at the fyre set forth theyr opynyons for shame , or ellys of malyce do dyssymule them , to bryng the people in a false opynyon of theyr iudges , to wene that they iudged wronge . And Bylney that had lernynge , and had ben accustumed in morall vertues , was by god reuoked from Tyndals heresye ere he dyed / and that of lykelyhed the rather , bycause god wolde not haue all his good workes loste .

And yet gloryeth Tindale vngraciously in theyr destruccyon / r●kenynge that theyr paynefull deth doth grete worshyppe to hys bokes , whyche are of suche sorte that neuer were there worse nor more abomynable wryten .

And yet hys bokes beynge suche / some folke there are that wyth suche folysshe fauour and suche blynde affeccyon rede them , that theyr taste enfected wyth the feuer of heresyes / they not onely can not decerne the thynge that they rede ( whyche yf they coude they were in good waye towarde amendement ) but are also dyscontent and angry wyth any man that wolde helpe them to perceyue it / and fayne wolde they haue them rather byleued then answered .

Of whyche sorte some haue asked what haue I to do to medle wyth the mater / sayenge that beynge laye man , I sholde leue it to the clergye to wryte in / and not hauynge professed the study of holy scrypture , I sholde leue the mater hole vnto deuynes . Surely fyrst as touchyng lernyng , yf that these maters were very dowtfull and thynges of greate questyon , or hadde bene so connyngly handeled by Tyndale and hys felowes , as they myghte seme therby maters of greate dowte and questyon : then wolde I peraduenture lette them alone my selfe , to be debated by men of more erudycyon and lernynge . But now the maters beynge so playne , euydent , and clere / and by the hole chyrche of Cryste so clerely put out of questyon , that it is playne and open heresye erenestly to brynge them in questyon : I neuer purpose beynge in my ryght mynde and a trew crysten man , to gyue an heretyque so myche authoryte , as to ●eken my selfe vnable in so playne poyntes of the crysten fayth to answere hym / namely syth I haue gone somwhat to scole my selfe , and bestowed as many yeres in studye , and vnder as connynge maysters as some of them haue / and that I se not hytherto these maters handeled in suche wyse by Tyndale , or the best of them bysyde that euer haue wryten therin , but that a ryght meane lerned man , or almoste an vnlerned woman hauynge naturall wyt and beynge sure and faste in the trewe catholyke fayth / were well able to answere them .

For so helpe me god as I nothynge fynde effectuall amonge them all , but a shamelesse boldenesse and vnreasonable raylynge , wyth scryptures wrested awrye , and made to mynyster them mater vnto theyr iestynge , scoffynge , and outragyouse rybaldry / not onely agaynste euery estate here in erth , & that agaynst them moste that be moste relygyouse in lyuynge , but also agaynste all the sayntes in heuen , and agaynste the blessed body of Cryste in the holy sacrament of the aulter . In whyche thynges they fare as folke that truste in nothynge elles , but to wery all wryters at last wyth endlesse and importune babelynge , & to ouerwhelme the hole worlde wyth wordes .

Now as for me , the cause is of my wrytynge , not so mych to debate and dyspute these thynges wyth them , whyche ( though I truste therin to gyue them no grete place ) many men maye do mych better yet then I / as to gyue men warnynge what myschyefe is in theyr bookes , bycause many good symple folke byleuynge that these men neyther saye nor meane so euyll as they be borne in hande / and longyng therfore to rede theyr bokes and se the thynge them selfe , be fyrste infecte wyth some heresyes that seme not at the fyrste intolerable , ere euer they come at the greatest / and then beynge before infecte wyth the lesse , they fall at laste to bere the greater , to whyche in the begynnynge they coude neuer haue abyden .

Now yf they wyll aske , is there no body to gyue them warnynge but I. yes there be that be mete there to , and there be that in dede do so / and yet amonge other that parte apertayneth to me . For I well knowe that the kynges hyghnes , whyche as he for hys moste faythfull mynde to god , no thynge more effectually desyreth then the mayntenaunce of the trewe catholyque fayth / wherof he is by hys no more honorable then well deserued tytell defensor , so nothynge more detesteth then these pestylent bokes that Tyndale and suche other sende in to the realme , to sette forth here theyr abomynable heresyes wythall : doth of hys blessed dysposycyon of all erthly thynges abhorre the necessyte to do punysshement / and for that cause hath not onely by hys moste erudyte famouse bokes bothe in englysshe and in latyn , declared hys moste catholyque purpose and entent / but also by hys open proclamacyons dyuers tymes iterate and renewed , and fynally in hys owne moste roiall person in the sterre chamber moste eloquently by hys owne mouth in greate presence of hys lordes spyrytuall and temporall / gaue monycyon and warnynge to all the iustyces of peace of euery quarter of hys realme then assembled byfore hys hyghnes , to be by them in theyr cuntrees to all hys people declared / and dyd prohybyte and forbydde vppon greate payne , the bryngynge in redynge , and kepynge of any of those pernycyouse poysened bookes / to the entent that euery subget of hys by the meane of suche manyfolde effectuall warnynge , wyth hys gracyouse remyssyon of theyr formar offence in hys commaundement byfore broken , sholde from thense forthe auoyde and estyew the parell and daunger of punyshement / and not dreue hys hyghnesse of necessyte , to the thynge from whyche the myldenesse of hys benygne nature abhorreth .

Now seyng the kynges gracyouse purpose in thys poynt : I reken that beynge hys vnworthy chauncellour , it appertayneth as I sayed vnto my parte and dewty , to folow the ensample of hys noble grace / and after my pore wyt and lernynge , wyth openynge to hys people the malyce and poyson of those pernycyous bokes , to helpe as mych as in me is , that hys people abandonynge the contagyon of all suche pestylent wrytynge , maye be farre from infeccyon / and therby from all suche punyshement as folowynge theruppon , doth aftentymes rather serue to make other beware that are yet clere , then to cure and he le well those that are all redy infected / so harde is that carbuncle catchynge onys a core , to be by any meane well and surely cured . How be it god so worketh , that somtyme it is . Towarde the helpe wherof / or yf it happely be incurable , then to the clene cuttynge out the parte for infeccyon of the remanaunt : am I by myne offyce in vertue of myne othe , and euery offycer of iustyce thorow the realme for his rate , ryght especyally bounden / not in reason onely and good congrewence , but also by playne ordynaūs and statute .

wherfore I recon my selfe of dewtye depely bownden , to shew you good reders the parell of these bokes / wherof the makers haue such myscheuouse mynde , that they boste and glory when theyr vngracyouse wrytyng bryngeth eny man to deth . And yet make they semblauns as though they were sory for yt . And then Tyndale cryeth owt vppon the prelates and vppon the temporall prynces , and callethe theym murtherers and martyr quellers / dyssymulyng that the cruell wrech wyth hys wreched bookes , murderethe the man hym selfe whyle he geueth hym the poyson of hys heresyes , and therby compellethe prynces by occasyon of theyr incurable and contagyouse pestylence , to punyshe theym accordynge to iustyce by sore paynfull deth● , bothe for ensample and for infeccyon of other .

whych thyng as sore as these heretyques reproue / affermyng that yt ys agaynst the gospell of Chryste , that eny heretyque should be persecuted and punyshed , and specyallye by bodylye payn or dethe / and some of theym saye the same of euery maner cryme , thefte , murder , treason , and all : yet in Almayn now contrary to theyr owne euangelycall doctryne , those euangelycalls theym selfe ceace not to pursew and punyshe by all the meanys they may , by purse , by pryson , by bodylye payne , and dethe , dyuerse theyre euangelycall bretherne that vary fro theyr secte / as there are of those counterfayte euangelycalls mo sundry sortys of dyabolycall sectes , then a man may well reherse .

And thys at the last be they dreuen theym selfe , contrary to theyre owne formar doctrine / bycause they fynde & proue well by experyence , that thoughe theyre sectes be but false heresyes all , yet can not the tone sorte long dwell wyth the tother / but that yf they begynne onys to be matchys , they shall not fayle at length to contende and stryue to gether , & by sedycyons , the tone dreue the tother to ruyne . For neuer shall the cuntre long abyde wythout debate and ruffle / where scysmes & factyouse heresyes are suffered a whyle to grow .

Byleue me not yf eny man can reken a place where euer he founde it otherwyse , in Affryque the Donatystes / in Grece the Arryanes / in Boheme the Hussytes / in England the wyclyffystes / and now in Almayn the Lutheranes / and after that the zuynglyanes / what bysynes they haue made , what dystruccyon and manslaughter they haue caused , partelye the storyes wytnesse , partelye men haue presentely seen . And yet hath god alwaye mayntened and contynued hys trew catholyke fayth , with the grete fall & ruyne at length of many scysmatycall sectes / whose fall vndowtedly the remanaunt wyll in conclusyon folow , wyth the playne & open wrathe of god shewed vppon theyr false prophetes / as it fell vppon the prophetes bothe of Beale and Baall , & now thys yere vppon zuinglius hym selfe● that fyrst brought in to Swycherland the abomynable heresye agaynst the blessed sacrament of the awter , and was as I say by the hande of god thys yere slayne in playne batayle agaynste the catholikes with many a thousand of his wreched secte , beyng in nomber to the catholykes thre agaynst one / and as prowdely and wyth as malycy●use purpose inuadynge them , as euer dyd the Egypcyans pursew the chyldren of Israell .

But now sayth Tyndale and frere Barns bothe , that I do them wronge , in that I call theyr bokes sedycyouse . For they counsayle they saye the people in theyr bokes , to be obedyent vnto theyr souerayns & rulers , all though they shold suffer wronge / and how can our bokes then ( saye they ) be sedycyouse ?

Surely to make men heretykes , and then byd them be meke ( when heresye spryngeth as saynt Austayne sayth of pryde ) standeth as well wyth reason / as to make a man dronke , and byd hym be sober / make hym starke madde , & byd hym be well auysed / make hym a starke thefe , and byd hym se he stele not .

How be yt besyde the sedicion that euery scysine and dyuisyon muste nedes moue and prouoke amonge any people that are of dyuerse sectis , all though they were all o●edient vnto one prynce / and cause them therby though they rebelled not agaynste his person , yet to breke the peace and quiete of his cuntre , and tunne in to the daynger & parelle of hys lawes : let vs yet ferther loke and consyder in what maner & fashyon they counseyle the people to obay theyr prynces .

They bydde the people for a countenaunce to be obedient . But they say therwyth that the lawys & preceptes of theyre souerayns do nothynge bynde the subiectes in theyr conscyencys , but yf the thynges by them cōmaundede or forbeden , were before commaunded or forbeden in scrypture . And all the wordes of scripture wherby they be commaunded to obay theyr gouernours , wold they restrayne vnto those thynges onely , that are expressede all redy wythin the corps of scrypture . So that yf they can begyle the lawys & preceptes of theyr souerayns vnware to other men , and therby fle fro the parell of outwarde bodely ponyshement : theyr euangely call lybertie sholde serue theym suffycyently for dyscharge of theyre conscyence , and inwardely make theym in theyre soules clere angelycall hypocrytys .

Nowe whan they falsely tell theym that they be not bounden to obaye theyre gouernours lawfull commaundementes / and thenne holyly counseyle theym to obay theyr vnlawfull tyranny ( for by that name call they the lawys ) what effecte wene ye they wolde that theyr aduyce sholde haue ? They knowe theym selfe well ynough and the maner of the people to / and be not so madde I warraunte yowe but that they perceyue full well , that yf they can persuade the people to belyue that they be not in theyr conscyence bounden to obay the lawes and preceptys of theyr gouernours / theym selfe be no such precyouse apostles , that folke wolde forbere theyre awne ease or pleasure , for the faynt fayned counseyle of a few false apostatas . And thus ys yt sure , that by theyre false doctryne they must yf they be belyued , brynge the people in to the secrete contempte , and spyrytuall dysobedyence , & inwarde hatered of the lawe / wherof muste after folowe the outwarde brech , and theruppon outwarde ponyshement & parell of rebellyon / wherby the pryncys sholde be dreuen to sore effusyon of theyr subiectes blood , as hath all redy mysse happened in Almayne and of olde tyme in Englande .

Let vs yet consyder ferther a poynt of theyr good holy counsayle concernynge the peoples obedyence .

Frere Barns in hys frantyke booke , byddeth the people that they sholde not rebell in no wyse . But he byddeth them therwyth that for all the kynges commaundement , they shold not suffer Tyndales false translacyon of the scrypture go out of theyr hande / but rather dye then leue it . Now knoweth he well that the false malycyouse maner that Tyndale hath vsed in the translatyng therof●as I haue proued bothe in my dyaloge and synnes agayne in thys boke / and as Tyndale doth hym selfe in hys owne answere openly confesse in the tytles of penaunce and preste : was done to set forth hys false heresyes wythall . And therfore it appereth well that Barns wold haue the people rather dye then obay theyr prynces , in puttynge away that boke that is falsely translated for the mayntenaunce of many pestylent heresyes . And thus ye se how fayne he wolde glorye in the peoples blode . For he woteth very well that the kynges hyghnesse wyll in no wyse , nor in no wyse maye yf he wyll saue hys owne soule / suffer that false translacyon in the handes of vnlerned people , whyche is by an open heretyke purposely translated false to the destruccyon of so many soules .

Now no man dowteth I thynke , but that Tindale hym selfe wolde no lesse were done for the mayntenaunce of hys false translacyon of the euangelystes , then wolde hys euangelycall brother Barns / but that folke sholde agaynste the kynges proclamacyons kepe styll hys bokes , & rather then leue them , dye in the quarell for the defence of his glory .

where as I byfore in my dyaloge dyd say that Luthers bokes be sedycyouse , as I now say that Tyndales be to , & mouynge people to theyr owne vndoyng to be dysobedyent and rebellyouse to theyr souerayns , in affermyng that they be not nor can not be bounden by any law made by men : Tyndale answereth me for Luther that I say vutrewly / and then sayth he ferther in thys wyse : A crysten man is bounden to obay tyranny / yf it be not a gaynste his fayth nor the law of god , tyll god delyuer hym therof .

Now let I passe myche raylynge that he consequentely maketh vppon prynces / and shall for thys tyme onely counsayle you to consyder these few wordes of hys , whyche he layeth forth for a rule of peoples obedyence to theyr prynce . For hys rule is that they shall obay theyr tyranny , tyll god delyuer them therof . And in thys poynt wyll I not be Tyndals interpretor / he may meane dyuerse wayes , but whych way he meaneth in dede , he shall hym selfe declare at his ferther ●eysore / for me thynketh he meaneth not very well , sauynge that I wyll not take hym to the wurste .

But in the tother poynt , I may be bolde to say that no good man may take hym well , where he sayth that a crysten man ys bounden to obay theyre pryncys tyranny , yf it be not agaynste hys fayth nor the lawe of god . And yet wyll I well agre that yf these wordes were spoken of a good faithfull mannys mouthe● and where any nede requyred yt : they were very well sayed / as they were when the apostles sayed , we muste rather please god then man . But when Tyndale that ys an heretyke putteth for a rule of the peoples obedyence to a good crysten prynce , that they be bounden to obay hys teranny yf yt be not agaynste his fayth : I say that this his rule of obedyence ys a playne exhortacyon to dysobedyence and rebellion . For euery man well seeth that Tyndale amonge many other abhominable heresyes techeth for the ryght faith , that freres may lawfully wedde nunnys / and that no man is bounden to the kepynge of any fastyng day or holyday made by the chyrch / and that no man sholde pray to any saynte , nor pray for all crysten soules / and that yt is great synne to do any wurshyppe to crystys precyouse body in the blessed sacramente of the awter / and wolde the people sholde kepe hys false translacyon of scrypture for mayntenance of these heresyes . And therfore yf any prynce make a lawe againste Tyndales heresyes , in any of these poyntes or suche other lyke : Tyndale here teacheth tha● the people are not bounden to obay yt / but may and must wythstande suche tyranny . Or at the leste wyse , though they be bounden peraduenture openly to obaye theyr pryncis tyranny , in forberynge fleshe on good fryday , or commynge to goddes seruyce on whytsone sonday , or freres in forberynge open weddynge with nonnes ( in all which thinges they be yet by Tindales godly gospell at theyr euangelycall lybertie , secretely to do what they liste theym selfe , where no peace is broken nor any weke conscience offended ) : yet for any law or commaundement eyther of prynce , or pope , or generall counsayle of all crysten nacyons , or of any angell that wolde come out of heuen to commaunde in goddys name the contrary / euery man must kepe still Tyndales false translacyon of scrypture , and abyde by hys other false bokes made for the mayntenaunce of hys manyfolde false heresyes . And no man muste for no law nor commaundement pray to any saynt , nor for any soule in purgatory , nor kysse any relyque , nor crepe to Crystes crosse , nor do any worshyppe to Crystes blessed body and bloode in the holy sacrament of the aulter .

But yf any prynce wolde by any lawe or commaundement , compelle hys people to any of those thynges : then Tyndale here playnely teacheth them that they maye and muste styffely wythstande hys tyranny . So that fynally concernynge obedyence / Tyndales holy doctryne is , that the people sholde in the defence of hys false heresyes , not let to dysobaye but stubernly to wythstande theyr prynce .

whych yf any man were so mad to do / & then were therfore in theyr obstynacye burned , or otherwyse in theyr rebellyon slayne : there were the tryumphe the greate reste and glory of Tyndales deuelysh prowde dyspytuouse harte , to delyte and reioyce in the effusyon of suche peoples blode as his poysened bokes had myserably bywyched , and from trew crysten folke , turned into false wycked wreches .

Now to th entent that ye maye the more clerely perceyue the malycyouse mynde of these men , and that theyr pestylent bokes be bothe odyouse to god and dedely contagyouse to men / and so myche the more perylouse in that theyr false he relyes wylyly walke forth vnder the counterfayt vysage of the trew crysten fayth : thys is the cause and purpose of my present labour / wherby god wyllyng I shall so pull of theyr gaye pay●ted vysours , that euery man lystyng to loke theron , shall playnely perceyue and byholde the bare vgly gargyle facys of theyr abomynable heresye .

And for bycause the mater is longe , and my leysour seld & shorte : I can not as I fayne wolde sende out all at ones , but yf I sholde kepe styll all togyther by me lenger then me thynketh conuenye●t .

I sende out now therfore of thys present worke , these thre bookes fyrste . In the fyrst of whyche I answere Tyndales preface made before his answere to my dyaloge / whiche preface of hys is in a maner an introduccyon into all his heresyes . The seconde boke is agaynst hys defence of hys translacyon of the new testament . The thyrde agaynst two chapyters of Tyndales answere / the tone , whythet the word were afore the chyrche or the chyrche afore the worde / the tother , whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten necessary to saluacyon , wheruppon greate parte of all hys heresyes hange .

Now shall I ( god wyllyng ) at my nexte leysor go ferther in hys booke , and come to the very brest of all this batayle / that is to wyt the questyon whyche is the chyrche . For that is the poynt that all these heretyke by all the meanes they may labour to make so darke , that by theyr wyllys no man sholde wyt what they meane . But I truste to drawe the serpent out of hys darke denne / and as the poetes fayne that Hercules drew vppe Cerberus the mastyffe of hell into the lyght where hys eyen dased : so shall I wyth the grace of that lyght whych illumyneth euery man that cometh in to this worlde , make you that mater so lyghtsome and so clere to euery man , that I shall leue Tyndale neuer a darke corner to crepe into , able to hyde hys hed .

Then after that I haue so clerely confuted Tyndale concernynge that poynt , and shall haue playnely proued you the sure and stedfaste authoryte of Crystes catholyke knowen chyrche , agaynste all Tyndales tryflynge sophystycacyons / whyche he wold sholde seme so solempne subtyle insolubles , whyche ye shall se proued very frantyke folyes : after thys done I say , before I go ferther wyth Tyndale , I purpose to answere good yong father Fryth / whych now sodaynly commeth forth so sagely , that .iii. olde men , my brother Rastell , the bysshoppe of Rochester & I , matched wyth father Fryth alone , be now but very babys , and as he calleth vs insipientes . But thus goth the worlde forth bytwene Fryth and vs . He encreaceth I se well as fast as we decay . For ones I wene the yongeste of vs thre , thre dayes ere father Fryth was borne / had lerned within a lytle as mych as father Fryth hath now . How be it I shall leue yonge father Fryth in his pryde & glory for the whyle . But when Tindale is ones in the article touchyng the chyrch confuted : them hath Frith alredy concernynge purgatory clerely lost the felde / and all hys welbeloued boke is not worth a b●ton , though it were all as trew as it is false . For then is the fayth of the chyrche in that poynt infallyble , or at the lest vnculpable , were there scrypture therfore or not . And no scrypture can there proue the very trew chyrch to holde an artycle as trew fayth , that were in dede dampnably false .

And yet shall I for all that go ferther wyth yonge father Fryth , and to wch yf god wyll euery parte of hys freshe paynted boke / and so shall I plukke of I truste the moste gloryouse fethers from hys gaye pecoks tayle , that I shall seue hym yf he haue wyt and grace , a lytell lesse delyghte & lykynge in hym selfe then he semeth now to haue / whyche thynge hath hytherto made hym for to stande not a lytell in hys owne lyght .

I praye god hartely sende that yonge man the grace to bestow hys wyt and lernynge such as it is , aboute some better busynes then Tyndale mysse bestoweth it now . For now is Frythys wyt and lernynge , nothynge but Tyndales instrument wherby he bloweth out hys heresye .

Fynally after that I shall haue answered Fryth / I purpose to retourne agayne vnto Tyndales boke , and answere hym in euery chapyter that he hath impugned in the .iiii. bokes of my dyaloge . wherin I truste to make euery chyld perceyue hys wyly folyes and false craftes , wyth hys open shameles lyes put in and mengled amonge them / wher wyth he fayne wolde & weneth to blynde in such wyse the world , that folke shold not espye the falshed & foly of hys erectable heresyes .

I thynke that no man dowteth but that this worke both hath ben and wyll be some payne and labour to me / and of trouth so I fynde it . But as helpe me god I fynde all my laboure in the wrytynge not halfe so greuouse and paynefull to me , as the tedyouse redynge of theyr blasphemouse heresyes / that wolde god after all my labour done , so that the remembraunce of theyr pestylent errours were araced out of englysshe mennes hertes , and theyr abomynable bookes burned vppe , myne owne were walked wyth them / and the name of these matters vtterly put in oblyuyon . How be it syth I se the deuyll in these dayes so stronge , and these deuelysshe heresyes so sore set a broche in some vnhappy hertes , that they neuer ceace in all that euer they may to sprede these bokes abrode to suche as kepe them in hukermoker , & secretely poysen them selfe wenynge the bokes were very good whyle they rede but then alone / and then of those euyll bokes so many dayly made by so many idle heretykes and by & by sent hyther : it were nede as me semeth that dyuerse wyse & well lerned men sholde set theyr pennys to the boke / whych though they shall not satysfye them that wyll nedes be nought , yet shall they do good to suche as fall to these folke of ouersyghte , wenyng that theyr new wayes were well .

Lucae .15 . Our sauyour sayth that the chyldren of darkenes be more polytyke in theyr kynde then are the chyldren of lyght in theyr kynde . And surely so semeth it now . For these false faythlesse heretykes , whose hertes are in the depe darke don geon of the deuyll / are more wyly and more besy therwyth in settyng forth of theyr heresyes , then are the faythfull lerned folke in the defence of the trouth .

And as the trew dyscyples of Cryst were in slumber and fell in slepe in Crystes company , whyle Iudas the traytor was wakynge and watchynge aboute hys detestable treason : so whyle these Iudasys watche & study about the makynge of theyr vngracyouse bookes , good and trew byleuynge men that were mete to answere them , and that were able in wrytynge to mych more then ouermatche them , yf they wolde wake and praye and take the penne in hande / be now so forweryed wyth the sorowe and heuynesse to se the worlde waxe so wretched , that they fall euyn in a slumber therewyth and lette these wretches alone / sauynge that yet somtyme some good Peter in a good zele so smyteth of Malchus eare , that god setteth it on better agayne and gyueth it grace to drawe bakke from the herkenynge of false heresyes , and to gyue it selfe to the herynge of Crystes trewe catholyque fayth . And somtyme agayne some good holy Poule shaketh the poysened adder into a fayre fyre / that lyeng and lurkynge amonge the drye frutelesse fagottes catcheth good folke by the fyngers , and so hangeth on theyr handes wyth the poysen styng of false onely fayth , that they wolde wythholde them from settynge theyr handes to any good vertuouse workes .

But now leuynge other men to do as god shall lyke to put in theyr myndes : I shall for my parte performe that I haue promysed yf god gyue me lyfe and grace therto . For as for leysore shall not I truste one tyme or other lakke to suffyse , for so mych & for mych more to . whyche when I haue as I before sayd all togyther performed : I wolde in good fayth wysshe that neuer man sholde nede to rede any worde .

For surely the very best waye were neyther to rede thys nor theyrs / but rather the people vulerned to occupye them selfe besyde theyr other busynesse in prayour , good medytacyon● and redynge of suche englysshe bookes as moste may norysshe and encrease deuocyon . Of whyche kynde is Bonauenture of the lyfe of Cryste . Gerson of the folowynge of Cryste , and the deuoute contemplatyue booke of Scala perfectionis wyth suche other lyke / then in the lernynge what may well be answered vnto heretykes .

The very tryacle were well loste● so that all venome and poyson were vtterly lost therwyth . And better were it not to be syk at all / then of a grete syknesse to be very well heled .

And yf it myghte be prouyded that euery man sholde be so well tempered , that no man sholde by dystemperaunce fall into dysease : then were it better that the physycyon bestowed all hys tyme about that parte of physyke that teacheth to preserue our helthe , then to wryte any worde of that parte that restoreth it . But syth it can neuer be brought to passe that poysen wyll be forgoten , nor that euery man shall vse hym selfe so cyrcumspectely , but that eyther of ouersyghte or aduenture some shall haue nede of cure : therfore it is necessary that tryacle for the tone , and other medycynes for the tother be prouyded and had . And therfore as I wold wyshe that theyr bookes were all gone and myne owne therwyth : so syth I se well that that thynge wyll not be / better it is I reken that there be tryacle redy , then the poysen to tary and no tryacle for it .

How be it though euery shoppe were full of tryacle : yet were he not wyse I wene that wolde wylfully drynke poysen fyrste to drynke tryacle after / but rather caste the poysen to the deuyll , and let the tryacle stande for some that sholde happe to nede it . And lykewyse wolde I counsayle euery good crysten man , and specyally such as are not groundely lerned / to cast out the poysened draught of these heretykes bokes , whych when they be dronken downe infecte the reader and corrupte the soule vnto the euerlastyng deth / and therfore neyther vouchesafe to rede theyr bokes nor any thyng made agaynst them neyther , but abhorre to here theyr heresyes so mych as named / accordyng to the gracyouse counsayle of the blessed apostle Poule agaynst fornycacion , where he wryteth vnto the Ephesyans : Ephes. 5. Let not fornycacyon be so mych as named or spoken of among you . And yet syth that wolde not be brought to passe that he counsayled , and wold fayne haue had obserued : he was fayne hym selfe to speke therof and wryte therof to arme the people agaynste it , in mo placys then one / as both he and other apostles and all holy doctors synnys haue ben dreuen to wryte againste heresyes , & yet wold fayne that folke wolde so clere haue caste all heresyes out of remembraunce , that neyther theym selfe shulde haue neded to wryte therof , nor other folke to rede the parte of theyre bokes .

And therfore as I wolde aduyse any man neither to rede these heretykes bokes nor myne , but occupy theyr myndes better / and standynge fermely by the catholyke faith of this xv . C. yere , neuer onys muse vppon these newe fangled heresyes : so vn the tother syde yf it mysse happe any man to fall in such a fonde affeccyon & vayne curiouse mynde , that neither parell temporall in brech of hys pryncys proclamacyon & the lawes of the realine , nor the parell spyrituall in hurtynge of his owne soule , nor they both to gether by puttynge hym selfe in daynger to burne both here and in hell , can hold his ycchynge fyngers frome theyre poysened bokes / then wold I counsayle hym in any wyse to rede therwith such thynges as are wrytten agaynste theym , and way theym both at the leste wyse indyfferently / and not to fall sodenly so dronke in the newe muste of theyre newe●angled neweltyes , that the olde holsome wyne with whych good folke haue lyued now this fyften hundred yere , offend theyr dronken taste , bycause yt is not so walow swete but drynketh more of the verder .

Forthermore for as mych as accordynge to the wordes of Cryst , Lucae .17 . It wyll none otherwyse be , but that some stumblyng blokkys wyll allway be by malycyouse folke layed in good peoples way / though beste were to stoppe your ●aris vtterly and gyue none herynge to any false euchauntors that wold bywych you wylyly , to make you delyte in those bokes : yet sith some that be playne & symple may fortune to be secretly mysse lede by false wyly shrewes excepte they be well armed before / I doute not by godes grace but yf they rede fyrste the thynges that are wrytten agaynste theym , they shall theym selfe be able to reiecte and confounde any deuyll that wolde drawe theym to them . And therfore as I am sure that euyl and vngracyouse folke shall euer fynde the meanys that suche bookes shall neuer in some corners lakke wherby good people may be deceyued and corrupted : yt ys more thenne necessary that men haue agayne at hande suche bookes as may well arme them , to resyste and confute them . Of which kynde of good bokes all be it I knowe well there may and dowte not but there shall be , many better made then myne / and that some such I se alredy : yet haue I not so sieyghtly seen vnto myn owne , nor shoffled it vp so hastely , nor let it so passe vnloked for by better men and better lerned also then my selfe / but that I truste in god it maye amonge the better stande yet in some good stede . And that it so maye to goddes honour and the profyte of some good folke , I hertely byseche our lorde / wythout the adspiracyon and helpe of whose especyall grace no labour of man can profyte / and to whom therfore be all thanke referred , whyche lyueth and regneth in eternall glorye . To whych as he hath all redy brought many a blessed saynt : so mote his mercy brynge with spede the soules that are in purgatory / and gyue vs the here lyue in this wretched worlde , ayde and helpe of grace by trewe fayth and good workes to folow them , the rather by the intercessyon and prayours of all his holy sayntes that are all redy wyth hym .

A, MEN .

The preface of Tyndall , wyth th● answere vnto the same .

Tyndall .

THe grace of our lorde , the lyght of his spyryt , to se and to iudg● trew repentaunce toward goddes law , a fast fayth in the mercyfull ꝓmises that are in our sauyour Cryste , feruent loue toward thy neybour after then sample of Cryste and hys sayntes be with the ( O reder ) and with all that loue the trouthe , and l●nge for the redempcion of goddys elect . Amen .

More .

TIndall here begynneth wyth an holy salutacyon , and so doth Luther to and so doth fre●e huskyne to / and id doth euery fonde felow of any of theyr sectys . They begynne theyr pystles in suche apostolycall fashyon / that a man wold wene yt were wryten from saynt Paule hym self . But wolde god they wolde onys rather folow hym truly in fayth and good workes , then in symulacion of lyke sancryte wyth theyr holy salutacyons .

For yf men consyder that where Tyndal here prayeth holy . +ly for the lyghte of the spyryt to see trew repentaunce / he then techeth hym selfe a sodayne sleyghte repentaunce / forbedyng both confessyon & all doynge of penaunce : they shall yf they be good men sett lytle by hys holy salutacyon . And when they consyder that where he prayeth god sende theym a fast fayth / hym selfe techeth a false fayth agaynst the sacramentys , and meneth that they shulde be fast in the same : there wyll no good crysten man can hym thank for that holy prayour . And where he prayeth here ●o holyly for the loue of the neygh . +bour / yf men loke on the loue that ys vsed amonge all the maysters of that hole holy secte , & consyder theyre lyuyngys , and loke vppon frere Luther the very father of theyr hole secte , and se hym ronne out of relygyon , & fallen to flesshe and caryn and lyue in lechery wyth a nunne vnder name of wedloke , and all the cheyfe heddys of then late monkys & freres , and now apostatas & lyuynge wyth harlotes vnder the name of wyues : he that lokyth on thys and then secth theym and theyr scolers , as Tyndale here and suche other come forth and speke so holyly / wolde he not wene that yt were a sorte of freres folowynge an abbote of mysrule in a Christemas game that were prykked in blankettes , and then sholde stande vp and preche vppon a stole and make a mowynge sermon .

And as lewd sermons as they make in such noughty games , wold god that these mennys ernyst sermons were not yet mych wurse . But surely as euyll as the tother be / yet is there more harme & more dedely poyson to in this one sermone of Tyndalys , as ye shall here or yt come at the ende : then in an hundred sermons of frere Frappe , that fyrste gapeth and then blessyth , and loketh holyly and precheth rybauldrye to the peopell that stande aboute .

For there is not the worste thynge that frere Frappe precheth in a lewde sporte : but fader Tyndall here wryteth mych worse in very great ernest , & mych worse then doth the tother abusyth the scrypture vnto yt .

The tother when he precheth that men may lawfully go to lcchery / he maketh commenly some fonde textes of his owne hed , and dare not in such madde matters medle wyth the very scrypture yt selfe . But Tyndall teacheth vs in good ernest that freres may walke out and wedde nunnes / and is neyther aferd nor ashamed to draw the holy scripture of god vnto the mayntenaunce of abhominabyll synne and seruyce of the deuyll .

The tother rybawde in hys fonde sermon medleth but with fleshly vyces and worldly wantonnes . But Tyndall here with an ernest hyghe professyon of godly spyrytuall doctryne teacheth vs a fals fayth & many mortall heresyes , and wolde with scrypture destroye the scrypture / and amyd dys hys ernest holynes falleth in to mokkes and mowes , & maketh madde apysshe iestynge agaynste the holy cerimonyes and blessyd sacramentys of● our sauyour Chryste / & the thynges sanctyfyed wyth the blessyd blode of oure sauyour Tyndall turneth in to scorne . Neuer was there any scoffynge frere Frappe prechyng vpon a stole , that durste play the knauyshe foole on suche a fasshyon as ye shall se Tyndall do here . For yf any sholde / his audyence ( were they neuer so wanton ) wold yet at suche wordes ( yf any sparke of christen ●●●e remayned in theyr hartys ) pull downe the rybawld by th●●●rte , and breke the stole vppon his hed .

And ●ow where as he saluteth vs wyth the lyght of the spyryte , and entendeth to brynge vs in darkenes of the deuyll / where he speketh of trewe repentaunce , and then wolde put awaye two partes thereof , that is to wyt bothe confessyon and satysfacyon / and where he speketh of faste fayth , and then teacheth a false presumptuouse faythe wy●h such truste put in fayth alone that he rekeneth all good workes fruteles and vnprofytable , and that fayth alone suffyseth to saluacyon , how dyuelyshely that any man lyue besyde : we may well perceyue that these tha● so teache , be wyth theyr holly salutacyons the false ydle prophetes of whome the blessyd apostle Pawle wryteth vnto the Romayns , Rom. 16 that by theyr swete blessynges waste oute and emptye the poore wydowes houses . For by such holy salutacyon , as by swete blessynge praynge for them so good thynges as they seme to do : they wynne theyr hartys to assent after to theyr heresyes , and so expell and kyll trew fayth in theyr hartes / and god so taken from them they make them wydows , & so waste and emptye oute the substancyall vertues of theyr soules .

But nowe when he speketh of feruent loue after the ensample of Cryste and his saintes / as ernest as the matter is , who can forbere laughynge when he seeth the lecherouse fleshly loue of those freres and theyr nunnes / wherof tyll Tyndall can tell vs some lyke ensamples of Chryste and his sayntis , that any of them were wonte to breke theyr vowes of chastyte and fall to suche fylthy lechery / tyll he can tell vs that , we may well tell hym that hys holy prayer of feruent loue here in his prologe / goeth quyte agaynste his purpose and shameth all his hole boke after .

wherfore good Cristen reders who so shall happen to rede his pernycyous boke , take wysdome wyth you as I dowte not but ye wyll / and be not so ledde wyth a few paynted holy wordes as yt were wyth the beholdynge of a pekokkes tayle but that ye regarde therwyth his fowle fete also / and loke well whyther he walketh and to what ende he speketh , and consyder hym by the hed maysters , and archherityques of hys vngracyous secte / whych when they haue spoken as relygiousely as he , yet haue as ye see well shamefully shewed them selues open incestuouse harlottes , and that of the moste abhominable sorte deflowrynge relygyous women .

And Tyndall hym selfe ( which thynge is worse then the dede doynge ) maynteyneth in hys boke theyr dede for well done .

Tyndall .

☞ Oure sauyour Iesus in the .xvj. chapter of Iohn at his laste souper when he toke his leaue of his disciples warned them sayeng , the holy goost s●all come and rebuke the worlde of iudgement , Tyndale 〈◊〉 now y● 〈◊〉 goste sent ●owne from heuen to ●e●uke the iugement of all crystendome thys . ●v . C. yere passed . that is he shall rebuke the worlde for lacke of trew iudgement and dyscrecion to iudge , and shall proue that the taste of theyr mouthes is corrupte , so that they iudge swete to be sowre and sowre to be swete : and theyr yees to be blynde , so that they thynke that to be very seruyce of god which is but a blynde superstycyon , for zele of whiche yet they persecute the true seruice of god : and that they iudge to be the law of god whyche is but a false imaginacyon of a corrupte iudgement , for blynde affeccyon of whiche yet they persecute the true law of god and them that kepe yt .

More .

How sone myght a pore symple soule be ledde to thynke , that all those that beleue not as Tyndall doth , were in a wronge way and in a false belyeff / when he heryth Tyndall here lay agaynst them the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe spoken vnto his dysciples in his laste soupper .

But nowe they that be lerned and know the place in the gospell , perceyue very well that Tyndall here synfully doth abuse the holy wordes of Chryste , and manyfestly mystorneth the mynde and sentence of our sauyour , folowynge th example of the deuyll that alleged the scrypture vnto Chryste in deserte .

For as the dyuell there falsely wrested the scrypture of god and leyd yt agaynste god : so dothe Tyndall here wreste the worde of our sauyour agaynst hym self and his hole chyrch , I say his hole chyrche not the clergye onely , but the hole congregacyon of all crysten people .

For yt is well knowen that Chryste spake those wordes agaynst the Iewes and Paynyms that refused him and his true fayth / shewynge that the holy goost at his comyng shold reproue theyr false iudgement and theyr vnsauery taste , that iudged swete sowre & sowre swete , and that he shold teache his chyrche and his congregacyon the very truthe and lede them in to all trueth that sholde be necessarye for theyre saluacyon .

And this promyse hathe oure sauiour bothe made in the gospell and also fulfylled in dede . For the holy goost hathe not fayled to teache his chyrch all such kinde of truthe from the begynnynge hytherto , nor neuer shall ceace so to do , as well by his owne holy secrete worde vnwrytten in the scrypture , and yet by hym selfe wrytten in chrysten mennys hartys / as by his holy scripture eyther wryten in tables of stone or in bestes skynnes / accordynge to his owne wordes spoken as well by the mouth of the prophete Ezechiel , Ezech. 11. as of the blessyd apostle saynt Paule .

These truthes had the apostles , the martyrs , the confessours , the holy doctours of Crystis chyrche , and the comen crysten people of euery age from Chrystes dethe hytherto . And in this comen knowen chyrche of christendome / excepte suche as at sondry tymes haue fallen there from as Arrius Pelagius , Donatus , wyclyff , and Husse , & such other / and now Luther , and Tyndall , and frere Huskyn , and theyr felowes ) hath euer the true iudgement remayned & the ryght sauored taste / and neuer loste any of those heretyques these necessarye truthes , tyll the dyuell hadde thorow pryde , enuye , and malyce , made them set naught by the chyrche . And then dyd he caste them forthe wyth in suche a feuer that they clene loste theyr taste / and then dyd they as Tyndall dothe nowe , iudge swete that all chrystendome iudged sowre .

And by those truthes and thys fayth alwaye from the begynnynge kept in Chrystes chyrche / be we now very sure that thys newe fayth of Luther , Tyndall , and frere Huskyn is very fonde and false , and that theyr mouthes are all out of taaste / syth that from Chrystes dethe hytherto all holy men , all good people , all true chrysten nacyons , haue sauored alwaye those meatys to be good and holsome , whyche these fonde felowes affyrme now to be bytter & peryllous meate / and haue alwayes affyrmed for vnsauery meate and euyll , suche as now these mad men affyrme to be well seasoned & good / & haue alwayes hytherto reputed for shamefull and fylthy lechery , the flesshly cowplyng to gether of freres and nonnes , that these losels now do boldely put forth & auowe for good and lawfull matrymonye .

If Tyndall graunte that I say trewe in this / then shall he be fayne to graunte that the wordes whyche he allegeth agaynst vs spoken by the mouthe of our sauyoure be not spoken agayst vs that byleue as all Chrystes chyrche hath byleued euer hytherto / but that they be spoken agaynst hym selfe and his felowys that byleue the contrary . And on the other syde yf Tyndall deny me thys , and wyll saye that all good men and goddes electes haue alwaye byleued as he & hys felowes do teache / and that they haue alwaye taught and done the same : let Tyndall then tell vs one good honest man , what speke we of honest man ? let hym tell vs of ony one so very a starke rybawlde in all this .xv. C. yere afore Luthers dayes and hys , that euer taught that it was lawfull for a frere to wedde a nunne . If Tyndall shewe you not thys as I wotte well he can not : ●● Tyndale taketh here saint Poule at his pleasure For saint Po●le speketh not there of b●rne agayne nor new created wyth the spyryt / but that sen●uall men as those that be carnal● & contenciouse be not mete for the perfit doctrine of spyrituall ieuelaciōs . and the● by that place Tyndales spirytual● s●rte be not spirytuall nor mete ve●●els to receyue & gyue ●ut the doct●ine of the spyrite / for there be no people so carnall & so ●●t●cic●se as they than be ye very sure that sythe euery holy man before hys dayes hathe taught the contrary , and hath had yt in detestacyon , & he now defendeth yt for good agaynst all good men that hath bene euer synnys Crystes dayes to hys owne / how holy a tale so euer he tell you besyde , & how so euer he paynt yt wyth scrypture , wrythen and wrested owte of all good course , ye may be sure ynoughe that hys doctryne ys for all that very starke noughte in dede , and that he meanyth no good / and that yf he beleue as he teacheth , as I verely beleue he doth not / hys fayth ys very false

Tyndall

☞ And thys same is it that Paule saythe in the seconde chapter of the fyrste epystle to the Corynthians / how that the naturall man that ys not borne agayne and created a new wyth the spyryte of god , be he neuer so grete a phylosopher , neuer so well seene in the lawe , neuer so sore studyed in the scrypture , as we haue ensamples in the pharysies : yet he can not vnderstond the thynges of the spyryte of god / but ( sayth he ) the spyrytuall iudgeth all thynges , & his spyryte sercheth the depe secretis of god / so that what so euer god commaundeth hym to doo , Saynte Poule in that place spekyth n●t of eny serche that spirytuall men shuld make of the cause of godd is commaundementis / but Tyndall fayneth the thing to finde by the se●che of the cause some dyscharge of the commaundment . he neuer leueth serchyng tyll he come at the botom , the pyth , the quycke , the lyfe , the spyryte , the marye , and very cause why , and iudgeth all thynge .

ye consyder well that Tyndall in these wordes wolde ye shulde wene that these folke of whom saynt Poule speketh in that place / be such as can not sauour the doctryne of Luther , frere Huskyn , and hym . But then consyder agayn vppone whome hys wordes fall . For ye dowte not nor hym selfe can not denye / but that hys doctryne ys farre frome the taste of saynt Austeyne , saynt Hierōe , saynt Ambrose , saynt Cypryan , saynt Gregory , and all those olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche vnto Luthers dayes and hys / or els as I sayd let hym tell me whyche of all theym dyd not abhorre that a preste shulde wedde a nunne . And therfore thus ye se that by Tyndalys holy tale there were none of all them were they neuer so gret philosophers , neuer so well seen in the law , neuer so sore studyed in scrypture / that cowlde vnderstonde the thynges of the spyryte of god , bycause they were but naturall men not borne agayne nor created a newe wyth the spyryte of god .

How knoweth Tyndale that none of all these that hathe bene aduersaryes to his doctrine , that is to wytte of all good men that euer were in crystendome syth Cryste was borne vnto Tyndalys tyme , was borne agayne or newe created wyth the spyryte of god . Howe hym selfe vnderstandeth his hyghe spirytuall wordes I wote nere / but I wote well that all those holy fathers were reputed for good crysten / and I wene they were all baptized and borne agayne of water and the spyryte as our sauyour sayd vnto Nychodemus / & after that they lyued well and spyrytually , and dyed well and spyrytually , as apperyth by theyr bookes and hystoryes wry●en of theyr lyues , and myracles shewed for them of god af●er theyr dethys . And vnto suche symple groce carnall peopell as we be / these thynges seme well to shewe that they were borne agayne of god & new created wyth his spyrite and so by Tyndalys owne tale shold seme able to vnderstande the thynges of the spyryte of god .

But yet wyll Tyndale none of that . For he lyketh not theyr iudgement / but he sayth that the spyrytuall iudgeth all thynges . And where as saynte Paule in the place alledged by Tyndale sayth that the holy goost the spyryte of god sercheth euen the depe thynges of god , by cause that vnto that holy spyryte whych is god there is nothynge of god vnknowen : Tyndale taketh that hygh power vnto his wursh●ppefull spirytuall sorte / sayeng the spyrituall iudgeth all th●nges , and his spyryte sercheth the depe secretys of god . And with this not satisfyed / he amplifyteh and enhaunceth theyr holy serche vppon heyth / and sayth that the spyryte of theyr spirytuall sorte serche the depe secretys of god so far that what so euer god commaundeth them to do / they neuer leue serchynge tyll they come at the botome , the pyth the quycke the lyfe , the spiryte , the mary , and very cause why / and so iudge all thynge .

what an hepe of hyghe vehement wordes hath Tyndale here heped vp to gyther ? who wolde not wene that he were wyth some holy medytacyon caryed vp in Ennoke and Helyas chare . But yet good crysten reder for all his holy tale / remember agayne the frere and the nunne , Luther and hys wyfe Tyndales owne mayster and maystres , the chyeff hed & author of his hygh spyrytuall fayth . For Lutherye wote well ( yf Tyndale and his felowes be spyrytuall & electys ) must as theyr fyrst author of theyr new spyrytuall secte , be nedys one of the very chyef . Let not therfore Tyndall ( good reder ) wyth his gay gloryouse wordes carye you so fast & so far away , but that ye remembre to pull hym bakke / by the sleue a lytle , and aske hym whyther his owne hyghe spirytuall doctour mayster Martyne Luther hym selfe , beynge specyally borne agayne & new created of the spyryte , whom god in many places of holy scrypture hath commaunded to kepe his vowe made of chastyte / when he then so far contrarye there vnto toke out of relygyon a spouse of Cryste , wedded her hym selfe in reproche of wedloke , called her his wyfe , and made her his harlot , and in doble despyte of maryage and relygyon both , lyueth wyth her openly and lyeth wyth her nyghtly , in shamefull inceste and abominable bycherye : dothe he the whyle after Tyndalys hyghe wordes serche the depe secretys , and neuer leue serchynge tyll he come to the botome , the pyth , the quycke , the lyfe , the spyryte , the mary , and the very cause of that commaundement why , and so iudgeth all thynge ?

Thus good reders examyne hym / and then shall ye perceyue how fondly suche an hyghe pure spyrytuall processe , accordeth wyth such a baas fowle fleshly lyuyng . But Tyndale hath an hope that whyle he paynteth his prologe wyth such gay colours of spirytuall vertue : there can no man in the meane whyle remember and consyder what vngracious frute theyr deceytfull doctryne & false fayth bryngeth forth . And therfore to carye the reder farther of / from the remembraunce therof / he letteth goo by theyr fylthy lechery and holyly speketh of loue .

Tyndale .

Take an example in the great commaundement , loue god with all thyn harte / the spyrytuall sercheth the cause and lok●●h on the benesytys of god , and so conceyueth loue in hys harte .

More .

In thys example of the great commaundement of louyng of god / there can lacke no causes , but wythout any farre serche there offer them selfe I now at hande , except men wil fully wyll forget them .

But yet all be yt that in many thynges a man may peraduenture well and with frute enserche the cause of goddes commaundementys / yet may the spyryte of a man that were as spirytuall as Tyndale is or Luther eyther , and take frere Huskyn to them / go some tyme to far in the serchyng of the depe secretys of god , and wade so farre therin / that he shall fynde these wordes of holy scripture true , Pro●er . 25 He that is that the sercher of the maiestye shall be oppressyd of the glorye and he shall fynde the depe secretis of god so depe that the secrete botome wyll not be founde oute for hym / and specyally in that thyng in which Tyndall and his felowes be as I shall hereafter shew you moste presumptuously besye / that is in goddys fynall electis & predestinatys wherof saynt Paule cryeth hymself , R●● . 11 O altitudo diuitiarum sapientiae & sci●tiae dei● O the he●th and depenes of the ryches of the wysedome & science of god .

And as for that that Tyndall sayth , that what so euer god commaundeth the spyrytuall man to do , he neuer 〈◊〉 serchynge tyll he come at the botome , the pyth , the quycks , the lyffe , the spyryte , the mary● and the very cause why● and iudgeth all thynges : I say as I sayd byfore it may peraduenture in some thynges do well to consyder the causes of goddes commaundement , so yt be done moderately and wyth reuerence . But many suche spyrituall persones as Tyndale is and Luther , and frere Huskyn / so be wonte to reason and serche the cause of goddes commaundementys wyth them selfe as kynge Saul dyd / or bytwene the dyuell and the●m selfe as our mother Eue dyd , R●●●● . 1● 〈◊〉 . ● that they fall vppon fallacyes and false causes / whereby lyke as Saul was deceyued in sauynge of the bestes for sacryfyce , whych bestes god hadde pr●cysely commaunded hym to destroy / and Eue was so by gyled that she thought she myght well ete the apple whyche god hadde precysely commaunded her to forbere : so doth I say to , these men that ar in this new fashyon spyrytuall , the dyuell theyr euyll spyryte and them selfe wyth theyr incessaunte serche fynde out salfe causes , wherof they take occasyon to breke the commaundementys of god / whyche commaundementys other good seely symple soules wythoute any serche obserue .

As for ensample , lo where as god hath in holy scrypture euydently commaunded , Psal. ● 5 Ecc.c. 5 Esaiae . 19 Ionae . 2 that who so make a vowe shall performe and kepe yt , as is wryten by the holy Psalmiste , Uowe ye and pay your vowes to our lorde / and where as our blessyd lady thought her self bounde therto , & all the holy sayntes synnys Cristes dayes vnto Tyndals tyme , haue without any varyance written & affyrmed the same , & not onely they but also all crysten people both good & badde , haue this .xv. C. yer● abhorted as an abominabyle monster , and accompted yt in comen talkynge for suche a prodigyouse cryme that euer monke or frere shold wedde an nunne , as they thought shold neuer happen in crystendome , & therfore haue alway iested that Antecryste sholde be borne betwene a frere and a nunne : these new spirytuall men haue now , Luther , Tyndall , and frere Huskyn and the dyuell to gyther , so longe enserched the cause of thys commaundement of god , by whych euery man is commaunded to kepe his vowe / that they haue with longe serche founden oute at laste , that monkes , freres , and nunnes , be not bounden by that commaundement at all / but may for all theyr vowe lawfully runne out of relygyon and lye to gyther when they lyste , and call theyr fylthy lechery good and lawfull wedloke .

And thus lo good reder these newe spyrytuall men wyth theyr depe serche interprete and expowne holy scripture , and fynde oute therin suche godly vertues as this is whych the olde holy doctours coulde neuer fynde therin for lacke of grace by lykelyhod , for we se well they lacked no wyt & had as mych lernynge as these men haue and ten tymes more to , and dyd theyr dylygence to / but they were as yt semyth but naturall onely , not borne agayne nor created of newe wyth the spyryte of god as Luther is and Tyndale & frere Huskyn and hys felowes .

Take ensample sayth Tyndale in the great commaundement , loue god wyth all thyne harte , the spyrytuall serchyth the cause and loketh on the benefytes of god , and so conceyueth loue in his harte .

In these wordes I lay no fawte . But all be yt a man myghte assygne other causes of our loue towarde god then Tyndale doth / as for ensample his owne excellent nature and goodnes of yt selfe , worthy ●to be loued , lauded , and honored of vs , though we shold yf yt were possyble receyue to oure selfe no benefyte at his hande at all : yet I very well alow the cause that Tyndale allegeth , that is to wytte the consyderacyon of the great benefytys of god / & yt is a cause of loue in dede both resonable of y● selfe , and also by many a good and vertuouse man alleged and consydered byfore .

But yet me thynketh that this consyderacyon of loue affyrmed by Tyndale / dothe confounde both Tyndall & Luther & all theyr hole secte , in that they hold that yt is not laufull to loue and serue god neyther for auoydynge of payne , nor for obteynyng of rewarde / callyng this manner of loue and seruyce seruyle bonde and mercennary . This is theyre comen opynyon , and Tyndale hath yt often as well in this boke as in dyuerse other . But now remember good reder that Tyndale sayth here the contrary whych I am glad to here hym say . For I am better content that he say some tyme well then alway naught . And here he sayth ryght well that the respecte of goddes benefytys is a cause of oure loue towarde god , and surely so is yt in dede . For all though the very good and great excellent nature of god be worthy to be loued of vs and worshypped and serued to , for the souerayne and surmountynge goodnes of yt selfe , though we sholde our selfe take no manner of benefyte thereby : yet may we well haue mo causes of loue , honour , and seruyce ioyned therunto .

yet am I not sure whyther Tyndale wyll saye that I do hym wrong in that I ioyne seruyce wyth loue , where he s●eketh not of seruyce but of loue onely . But I haue bene bo●d to ioyne our loue and seruyce towarde god to gyther / bycause I veryly thynke that Tyndale wyll hym selfe graunt vs , that for what so euer cause yt is lawfull for vs to loue god / for the self same cause yt is lawfull for vs to serue god But Tyndale agreeth that we may loue hym for his benefytys / wherof yt foloweth excepte he say that we may loue for some cause , for whyche it is not laufull to serue hym : els I say muste Tyndale nedys graunte that for goddes benefytys yt is lawfull for vs to serue hym .

Now yf Tyndale graunte vs that conclusyon / we wyll then wade with hym a lytle forther , and ioyne therunto that yf yt be lawfull for vs to serue god for his benefytys , which we haue receyued : yt is also lawfull for vs to serue him for his benefytis which we longe & hope to receyue . And surely as the respecte of his benefytys whych we haue receyued is a good cause of loue : so is the belyef of hys ꝓmysys & hope of his benefitys to come , a good and a great cause of loue towarde hym .

Then yf we may seru● god for his benefytys to come / yt semeth no dowte but that we may serue hym for to get heuen , whyche is of all benefytys the greateste .

At thys poynte wyll Tyndale happely stykke wyth me / and he well say styfly that fayth we may vse and serue god therwyth , to th entent therewyth to gete heuen / for fayth his felowes and he affyrme to be the thynge whych onely doth iustyfye vs . But then they say playnly that yf we serue god wyth any other good worke , fastyng , prayer , or almose dede , to th entent that we may therwyth please god the better or the rather come to heuen : this seruyce is vnlawfull , dyspleasaunt to god , and playn vnfaythfulnes / for as mych as we shall as they say be saued onely by Crystes bloode & by oure belyffe in his promyses of the same / & therfore they call yt playne idolatrye to serue god wyth any good workes for heuen , or to th entent that we myght please god the better therby . For that thynge they say were as mych as to make oure self Cryste , and to saye that we wolde be our owne sauyours by our owne workes / and not Cryste by the worke of hys passyon .

In this poynte they stycke styffely / and when they be answeryd that all though we serue god wyth good workes wrought with his gracyous helpe , to th entent to please hym the better therby / as hymselfe hath in many places of holly scrypture commaundyd vs / & hope also that suche good workes shall the rather helpe vs to heuyn , and that we shall in heuyn be rewarded for theym and for the respecte of goddis commaundement / and for thys entent also we do them as Cryste hath also gyuen vs good occasyon , where he saythe that who so gyue so mych as a draught of colde water shall not lese hys rewarde , Mar. 9 and where he byddeth vs gyue vnto the poore to th entent that they may receyue vs in to the eternal tabernacles , Lucae . 16. and where he sheweth that at the daye of dome men shall haue heuyn for theyr charytable almesse dedes done here in erthe : now when we tell them thus , and that we do neuer the lesse knowlege and confesse therwyth that we neyther do nor can do any good worke wythout the specyall grace & helpe of god , and that our deades be commenly so defectyue that though good deades well done be rewardable , yet euery man maye fynde in hymselfe great cause to mystruste hys owne , and that we tell them also that all the best that the best man maye do , is yet not more than hys deutye for euery man is of his deutye ●ounden to labour for heuyn and to serue and please god aswell and asmych as he maye , and notwythstandynge that we also tell them that the best worke that any man worketh wyth goddys helpe and grace , is not yet rewardable with heuyn of the nature or goodnes of the worke it selfe , all though he suffred euery daye in a longe lyfe a dowble martyrdome accordynge to the wordes of saynt Paule , Rom. 8 the passyons of thys worlde be not worthy the glory that is to come that shall be reueled and shewed vppon vs / and notwythstandynge that we tell them to / that all the heuynly rewarde of mannes good workes cometh onely of goddys owne lyberall goodnes , in that it hath pleased hys hyghe bountye to gyue so great a ryche pryce for so poore and symple ware as are all mennys workes / & all be it that we tell them also that god wolde not rewarde our workes in such wyse , were it not for the shedynge of hys sonnes blood / and so we fynally referre all the thanke and rewarde of our good workes , bothe the begynnynge , the progresse , and the ende , effectually to god and the merytes of Crystes passyon / when we tell Tyndale and Luther all this yet fare they as though they herde vs not , and styll they synge vs on theyr olde songe that it is ydolatrye to serue god wyth any good workes , to th entent the better to please god therewyth , and the rather to come to heuyn therfore●and that we may not wyth out synne for any helpe to heuynwarde serue god wyth any good worke sauynge onely fayth .

yet when we aske them whyther we may not laufully for the same entent serue god wyth hope to : to that thyng they care not to graunte / but then they confounde the termys of fayth and hope , so as I neyther wote howe nor themselfe neyther . Then yf we aske them farther whither it be not laufull to serue god wyth charyte to ( whyche now they leue and fall all to lusty loue ) wyth intent to get heuyn the rather : to that they let not to graunte also / but they say the cause is for that fayth they say hath alwaye charyte therwyth . But all be it that in that poynte theyr affyrmacyon is fals , as by reason and pleyne scrypture hath ben often proued vnto them : 1. C●r. 13 Iac●bi . 2 that is ynough to me that they graunte that a man maye laufully loue god and serue hym wyth charyte to th entent to be the rather saued and come to heuyn therby .

For now semeth me that yf we laufully maye ( as Tyndale wyll graunt we maye ) serue god with the vertues of fayth and hope and charyte , or of any one of them wyth respecte vnto goddys benefytes receyued and also to come / and to th entent therby the rather to be saued & come to heuyn , we may then laufully with lyke respecte , purpose , & intent , serue god wyth any other vertue that procedeth of fayth , hope , & charyte , or of any suche one of them wyth whyche it is laufull for vs for suche respecte , entent , & purpose to serue god : then wyll not Tyndale denye but that prayer , fastynge , almesse dede , and contynence and clennesse of body , penaunce , trouble of the mynde , wyth sufferauns of trybulacyon or afflyccyon of the flesshe wyllyngly taken , wyth many other outwarde and inwarde workes / may procede of fayth , hope and charyte . wherfore I can not se but that Tyndale as he graunteth here that we maye serue god wyth loue , entendyng thereby to please hym and be sauyd the rather : so must he nedys graunte and agre that lykewyse may we wyth lyke entente and purpose serue wyth all other workes aboue remembryd , procedynge of a faythfull workynge charyte / wherof he and all hys fonde felowes in euery place holde hytherto the contrary .

And thus haue I now playnly deducyd vppon Tyndals owne wordes the full confusyon of hys owne comen conclusyon , so many tymes by hym and hys felowes obiected , and among them all neuer onys yet well prouyd nor neuer able to be proued , agaynst the profyte of good mennys chrysten workes / for chrysten be theyr prayers , theyr fastynge , and theyr almosse dedys , when they be done in fayth , hope and charyte , and in the state of grace .

Tyndall

And when he is commaundyd to obay the powers and rewlers of the worlde / be loketh on the benefytes whiche god shewyth the worlde thorow them and therfore doeth it gladly .

More .

In this obedyence Tyndale is yet content to haue a respecte to the benefytes that god worketh and shewyth the worlde thorow the powers and rewlers of the world , & putteth that for eyther the onely or the chyefe cause of hys obedyence , as he putteth it for the onely or chyefe cause of goddys commaundement . In whiche kynde of obedyence semeth not the greatest vertue , when a man obeyeth onely for hys owne aduauntage / but the very chrysten obedyence is to obaye specially for that god so commaundeth , and not so to serche and lymyte the cause of goddes commaundement / as he may therby take hymselfe & gyue to other an easy bolde occasyon to dysobaye , resyste , and rebell agaynst theyr hedys and rulers , pretendynge that they be not profytable .

Thys thynge meanyth Tyndale as it apperyth by hys wordes here in the cause of hys obedyence , to the powers and rulers of the worlde / & as it apperyth in dyuers other places of hys workes and Luther his maysters to . But god all though he wyll that the gouernours and rulers of the world sholde be good and profytable to the people / yet wyll he not that the people shall measure the dewty of theyr obedyence by the onely rule and measure of theyr owne profyte and commodyte / but that they shall obaye theyr prynces and other rulers and gouernours , bycause that they be theyr gouernours and rulers , and bycause that god hath so commaunded . For yf they may measure theyr obedyence by the measure of theyr owne profyte as Tyndale telleth vs : they shall sone seke occasyon of sedycion , and therof do themselfe also more harme in one daye then sholde theyr ruler in many yeres , all were he ryght vnprofytable in dede / as apperyd by the vplandysshe Lutherans in Almayn , whyche measuryng theyr obedyence by Tyndalys rule gyuen them before by Tyndalys mayster / became all vnrulye and dysobeyd and rebellyd agaynst theyr rulers , and therby dysobeyd goddes commaundement , and brought therby the vengeaunce of god vppon theyr owne heddys , to the slaughter of aboue foure score thowsand of them in one sommer , & the remenaunt the worse entreated euer syns / and that hath made Luther and Tyndale a lytell to retreate syns and set a new glose therto that will but shrewdly serue them as I shall shewe you when I come to the place hereafter in hys boke .

Tyndall .

And when he is commaunded to loue his neyghbour as hymselfe / ●e serch●●● that hys neyghbour is created of god and bought with Crys●es blode , and so forth .

More .

Loo thys is very louyngly spoken , & he sayth very well / and I praye god that he be one of those spyrytuals that so doeth , but surely many places in euery boke that he writeth seme clerely to declare that he hath another maner of spyryte then suche a spyryte of loue . And yet were it herde excepte the goddys commaundement gyue vs that warnyng / ellys wyll it be somwhat herd for any man vppon the other two causes by any serche to perceyue that he were in reason bounden to loue another aswell as hymselfe though they maye serue to loue hym ryght well .

Tyndale .

And therfore he loueth hym oute of his harte . Owt of 〈◊〉 ●erte not in hys he●●e . And yf he be euyll forbereth hym and wyth all loue and pacyence draueth hym to good as elder brotheren wayte on the yonger and serue them and suffre them / and when they wyll not come they speke fayre and flater and gyue some gaye thyng and promyse fayre , and so drawe them and smyte them not / but yf they may in no wyse be holpe , referre the ponyshement to the father and mother , and so forth . And by thes● iudgeth be all other lawes o● god and vnderstandeth the true vse and meanyng of them / and by these vnderstandeth he in the lawes of man whych are ryght and whyche tyrannye .

More .

Useth Tyndale and his spyrytuall mayster thys manes of loue , this forberynge , and this maner of pacyens to warde the pope and the clergye , and towarde prynces and other temporall rulers ? we se perde thorow all theyr bokes in what lowly louynge fashion they serue and suffer them , and how fayre they speke , and how plesauntly they flater all holy catholyque crysten people sauyng onely theyr own secte , with as venemouse wordes and as poysen speche as the dyuell can dyuyse them , wyth all the meanes they may to sow dyuysyon and dyssencyon and set the people in sedycyon / & vnder colour of true fayth to brynge them in heresyes and destroye both bodye and soule .

But Tyndale wold now that we shold for the whyle forget all that he and his mayster wryteth ellys where , and hym selfe in many placys after in this same boke / and that we sholde onely marke these holy louyng wordes that he wryteth here in his present prologe / in whych he sayth that they whych be spirytuall do neuer smyte theyr yonger brotheren , that ys to saye , suche as be not in fayth and vertue growen vp as they be , nor wyll not wyth them come forwarde therin , but be euyll and wyll be no better / but the spyritualles as theyr elder brotheren doth flater them and promyse fayre and gyue them gay thynges , and so draweth them forward in grace / and fynally yf that wyll not helpe them , then the spirytuall elder brother referreth theyr punyshement to the father and the mother , that is as he meaneth to all myghty god , for yf he ment vnto theyr rulers so yt is all redy / for none other hath authoryte to correcte and punysse . And hys mynde he hath declared in that byhalfe in sundry placys / that non man shold in any wyse pursue and punysh any man specyally for any heresye / for he that pursueth any man is no spyrytuall man . I let passe here that after this waye the worlde , all be yt that yt be badde ynough all redye , wold yet wax then mich worse / and I passe ouer also that as well all wyse men as all good men , and holy scripture also yt selfe , is open and playne to the contrarye .

And I wyll for the whyle no more but aske of Tyndale whether he accompte the pope & the clergy and the temporall prynces for menne borne agayne and renewed with the spyryte of god , and therby spyrytuall or not . If he reken them for suche : then by hys owne rule they can and do very well iudge all thynge , and so sholde he then thynke that the thynges that they do be well done / for he sayth hym selfe that the spirytualles do serche the botome of goddes commaundementes and fulfyll them gladly .

Now yf he say that they be not the spyrytualles , but such as Luther is and frere Huskyn and hym selfe , & suche other as so serche the causes that they care not as Tyndale sayth after , whyther the preste saye masse in hys gowne or in hys cope , and wyll as sone gape for sande as holy salte , and had as lyefe be smered with vnhalowed butter as enoynted wyth charmed oyle , excepte men can tell them the causes whyche they saye that no man can , and therfore they mocke and ieste therat / nowe yf thys theyr sorte be as Tyndale sayth the spyrytuall and therby the elder brothern : then wyll we say to Tyndale and aske hym why do not you Tyndale and your spyrytuall felowes accordynge to your owne wordes here , loue out of your hartes the pope , the cardynals , the clergye , the prynces , the people , and so forth , beynge as your younger brothern not yet borne agayne / and why do you not forbere them wyth all loue and pacyence & so forth , Tyndale taketh gre●●●●easu●e in often bryngynge in the●e wordes , And so forth . and wayte on them and serue them and suffer them and so forth / and when they wyll not wyth you come forth , why do you not then speke them fayre and flater them and promyse them fayre and so forth , and so drawe them forth and so forth . And yf that for a●l thys they wyll not come forth : why do you not then referre the punysshement to the father and mother and smyte them not / but contrary to your owne wordes vse at your yonger brothern to laughe them to skorne , to mocke , to ieste , to checke , to chyde , to brawle , & rybaldously to rayle / callynge them apyshe , peuysshe , popysshe , iuglers , theues , murderers , bloodsupers , tormentours , and traytours , Pylatys , Cayphaas , Herodys , Annaas , & Antecrystes , Iudaas , hypochrytes , mokenmongers , pryapystes , idolatres , horemaysters , and sodomytes , abomynable , shameles , stark madde , and faythlesse bestes , hangemen , martyr quellers , and Cryste kyllers , serpentes , scorpyons , dremers , and very dyuels / & fynally wyth such venemouse wordes and other malyciouse wayes the wurste that the dyuell and you deuyse to gether , bysely put forth youre payne to sow debate , dyssencion , scysmes , stryfe , and sedycion / and cause your spyrytuall people that ys to wyt the elder brothern borne agayne of the spirite , to ryse and rebell agaynst your yonger brothern , but naturall yet and not borne agayne / and the tone parte to smyte & kyll the tother by thousandys on a daye , as ye haue done in Almayne / prouidynge alway that your selfs the chyeff captayns and authours of such sedycion and rebelliouse bloodshed , gate vp vppon some hyll in the meane whyle , and stonde and loke vppon sure & safe a syde halfe out of all gonshot● and com not at hand strokes in no wise , but serue for trompetours with the blaste of youre wordes and vngracyous wrytynges to kynd●e them & call vppon and set them all a worke / and yf yt walke on youre syde then to gaude and glory , and yf yt go agaynste you & your parte go to wrake , then slynk awaye fro the felde and make as ye cam not there nor neuer entended harme nor ment any such mater / or as your mayster dyd in Almayne to put your selfe out of suspycyon , crye to the contrary parte to kyll them downe hande smothe , whom your owne wordes raysed vp and synfully set a worke .

And lo thus hath Tyndale connyngly declared the grete commaundement of loue , and by hym selfe and his felowes as ye se so louyngly put in vre , that they wolde helpe the tother parte to all the myschyefe they myghte / and wolde that on the tother syde what so euer they do them self be it neuer so myscheuouse , no man sholde ones chyde them nor gyue fowle wordes / but in theyr deuylyshe dedys forbere styll & suffer them , and take them then ●s younger brothern lytell babys vntaught , and gyue them fayre wordes and pretye proper gere , ratylles & cokbelles and gay golden shone / and yf the wantons wyll not lerne yet , but byte & scratche theyr felowes / bete not the babys yet in no wyse , but go and tell theyr mother and so forth .

And when Tyndale hath thus connyngly declared the greate commaundement of loue , and hath so spyrytually set it out to the shew : then concludeth he well & worshypfully that by thys commaundement of loue in suche a wyse waye vnderstanden , his spyrytuall sorte iudgeth all the lawes of god , and vnderstande the true vse of them / and by the same in lykewyse vnderstande they all the lawes of man which are ryght and whych tyranny . For by thys then vnderstande that for the loue that they bere to theyr own wyll / euery glose that they gyue them selfe is the ryght meanyng of the worde of god , and all that all other holy men haue wryten is but fantasyes and false . And in mennis law to let them bete other men for saynge trueth , were well ordeyned and ryghte / but any man to chyde onys any of theym for a hondred heresyes , that were vtter wronge and no lawfull law but playne tyrannye .

Tyndale .

If god sholde commaunde hym to drynke no wyne as he commaunded in the olde testament , that the preste sholde not when they mynistred in the tem●●e and forbade dyuerse metes : the spyrytuall because ●e ●noweth that man and ●uer all other creatures , and they his seruauntis made to be at 〈…〉 that yt is not commaunded for the wyne or meate yt selfe that man 〈…〉 in bondage vnto his owne seruaunt the inferiour creature / cea 〈…〉 the cause . And when he fyndeth yt is to tame the fleshe , and that 〈…〉 sober / he obeyth gladly and yet not so supsticiously , that the tyme 〈…〉 he wolde not drynke wyne in way of a medycyn to recouer his 〈…〉 uid ate of the holowed brede , and as Moyses for necessyte lefte the 〈◊〉 of Israel vncircuncysed , and were yet thought to be in no worse ●a●e 〈◊〉 they that were circumcised , as the chyldern● that dyed wythin eyght day● were 〈◊〉 ted in as good case as they that were circuncised / whyche ensamp●es myg●t teache vs many thinges yf there were spyryte in vs .

More .

Now cometh he to those thynges whyche he taketh for indyfferent / that is to wy● of theyr nature neyther good nor euyll , but takynge theyr goodnesse or theyr euyll of commaundement or prohybycyon and of the mynde of the doer wyth cyrcumstances of the dede / & in these thynges he speketh as one that wolde we shulde we●e that hys hyghe spyrytuall wysdome had a very depe insyghte in that he tellyth vs as a newe straunge tale , that neuer man had herd byfore that the inferyour creatures be subgettes to man and not man to them .

But now this truth● laboreth he to make a fals ground to byelde his lyes vppon . For by this he wolde haue vs wene that we were at lybertye to construe and interpretate all commaundementes eyther of Crystes chyrche or of Cristes owne mouth immedyate , after our owne swete wyll , when so euer ●e can fynde out any false glose of the commaundement to flater and begyle our self withall . Leuitici . 1● . As here yf god sholde commaunde hym to drynk no wyne as he commaundyd in the olde lawe whyle they mynystred in the temple : he wolde anone serche for the cause . And then he sayth that he sholde fynde the cause to be for tamynge of the flesshe and to kepe hym sober , and then for that cause he wolde obay the commaundement gladly , but yet not so superstycyously but that in tyme of hys dysease he wolde drynk wyne to recouer his helthe / & therof he layeth ensample of Dauid & of Moyses .

But what auayleth hym all thys tale . For we deny not but that the worde and precept of god receyuyth interpretacyon . But we say that the authoryte therof lyeth not in euery mannys hed at aduenture / & that all though some thynges be playne and open inough , yet it is peryllous for any man except certeyn reuelacyon of god , to take hymselfe for so far forth renewed wyth the spyryte of god , that he boldely lene in such thynges to hys owne wyt leste hys wyll blynde hys wyt / but let vs lene therin vnto the iudgement of the olde holy enterpretours passed , and specyall to the sense receyued of the hole catholyke chyrche , not the chyrch of onely electys whyche chyrche no man can knowe but vnto the catholyke knowen chyrche of all crysten people saue heretykes / whyche catholyke chyrche what so euer Tyndale saye can neuer fall in dampnable erroure .

For yf a man leue these wayes and boldely cleue to a cause of hys owne serchyng : he is well lykely to breke the commaundement .

As here Tyndale presupposeth yf god wolde hymselfe forbedde all men wyne vppon certeyne dayes , or commaunde them certeyne dayes to faste : here wolde Tyndale anon as a man spyrytuall enserche the cause why god wolde commaundyd hym so / and then wolde he fynde that the cause were but onely to tame the flesshe and to kepe men sober , & therfore wolde he obay it .

But now by thys facyon yf god gaue Tyndale a commaundement wherof Tyndale cowde fynde no cause at all / he wolde not do it at all .

If our father Tyndale had ben in paradyse in the stede of our father Adam / he sholde neuer haue nedyd any serpent or woman eyther to tempte hym to eate the apple of the tree of knowledge . For when god had forbed hym the eatynge therof vppon payne of deth , as he forbedeth vs lechery vppon payne of dampnacyon : then wolde he haue serched for the cause of the commaundement . And when hys wyt wolde haue founden none bycause the flesshe had there no need of tamynge : then wolde he haue eaten on a good pace & haue thought that god almyghty had but played the wanton with hym , and wolde not be angry wyth hym for an apple / and so wolde he by his owne rule of serchyng haue founde oute as myche myschyefe as the woman and the serpent and the deuyll and all .

And surely now to , by thys spyrituall rule of enserchyng of the cause of fastynge and forberyng meate , and fyndynge the cause to be none other but for tamyng of the flesshe and sobernes / who so euer thynke hymselfe to the synnys of the flesshe not mych inclyned as some of nature are not , nor by moderate drynkynge of wyne any thynge dysposed to dronkennesse : shall interprete hymselfe dyscharged of the commaundement , and shall drynke wyne and shall breke hys faste at his pleasure / or yf he forbere wyne or kepe the faste he shall at the vttermoste kepe it but for a countenaunce , and as they wryte themselfes in auoydynge the slaundrynge of suche as haue a weke conscyens and wene themselfes bounden to the kepynge therof . And therfore when they haue kept the faste in syghte / they shall not force to breke all those fastes pryuely , where the weke conscyences of other symple soules are absent and no body by them , but suche as are all spyrytuall and haue a conscyence stronge inough to breke the stronge faste vppon good fryday wythout grudge of conscyence at all . And afterwarde lytell & lytell they shall when they be suffryd amende also and make stronge in the lorde the weke conscyences of theyr syk brethern , and make them breke all the fastyng dayes to , wyth laude and thanke gyuen to the lorde that by hys ele●●e prechers in these latter dayes of thys blynde worlde , that coulde not on fastynge dayes fynde theyr meate / hath now illumyned theyr eyghen and gyuen them lyght , by whyche they haue founden they waye in to the crysten lybertye of eatyng , drynkynge , and honeste lykynge lechery , from the bondage and thraidom of all fastynge dayes and all professyd chastyte .

For thys ende we se that theyr spyrytuall doctryne hath all redy brought it in Saxony / for there is now the lent all turnyd in to shroftyde . And there it well apperith all though it were true that Tyndale sayth , that fastynge were of god ordeyned for none other cause but onely to tame the flesshe : yet was it nede for the chyrche to do as it hath done by the spyryte of god , ordayne and appoynte certeyn comon fas●yng dayes in whyche the people sholde faste together . For ell●● yf there were no suche / the moste parte of the people whyche now in the comon fastes do tame the flesshe togyther by the commaundement and laudable custome of the chyrche of god● wolde fynde very few dayes therfore of theyr owne mynde● and many not one thorow the hole yere as ye now se it in Saxony , where they that were woont to faste many , faste now neuer a one .

And surely yf fastynge were not profytable done of any other deuocyon but onely serued for tamynge of the flesshe , and then the custome taken awaye of comon fastyng dayes , in whyche folke faste togyder in obedyence of the commaundement , & those comon dayes taken away / folke were onely lefte to theyr owne lybertye and pryuate secrete conscyens , to chose theyr fastyng dayes theyr selfes , not of any other deuocyon but onely for tamynge of theyr flesshe , when them selfe fele it begynne to boyle : then many wedded men sholde nede few fastynge dayes to theyr payne , hauynge theyr remedy so pleasaunt and so present alway redy at hande , and then wolde many an honest mayden be ashamed to faste any daye at all , leste she sholde seme therby to gyue yonge men warnynge that she were waxe warme and byd them yf they wyll spede speke now .

But Tyndale with hys spyrytuall felowes are fallen in to thys foly by the lykynge of theyr owne luste , in fauoure wherof they synfully studye to fynde out fals gloses , to be open glotons wythout reproche / and also wyth the prayse of suche people as theyr false doctryne hath corrupted and brought in a wronge bylefe , contrary to all doctryne of all the olde holy doctours , and agaynst all holy scripture , euyn the very gospell it selfe and the very wordes of Cryste , by whyche not onely all crysten people hytherto but also the iewes haue from the begynnyng ben taught to byleue , that mannys fastynge hath ben pleasaunt to god for other causes then Tyndale wolde haue it seme , that sercheth and seketh onely the meanes to breke it .

Tyndale and hys mayster be wonte to crye owte vppon the pope and vppon all the clergye , for that they medle phylosophy wyth the thynges of god / whyche is a thynge that may in place be very well done , syth the wysdom of phylosophy all that we fynde true therin , is the wysdom gyuen of god , and may well do seruyce to hys other gyftes of hygher wysdome then that is . But Tyndale here in this place as it semeth , doeth lene vnto the olde naturall phylosophers all togyther . For as for abstynence to tame the flesshe from intemperaunce and fowle lustes also , thys was a thynge that many phylosophers dyd bothe teache and vse . But as for fastyng , that is a nother thynge whyche god hath alwayes amonge hys faythfull people had obserued and kepte , not onely for that purpose , but also for a kynde of payne● a●●ly●cyon , and punysshement of the flesshe for theyr synnes and to put vs in remembraunce that we be now in the vale of terys and not in the hyll of ioye sauynge for the comfort of hope .

And all be it that Tyndale be lothe to here therof , bycause he wolde not that any man sholde do true penaunce wyth puttynge hymselfe to any payne for hys owne synnes / yet wolde god the contrary . And as he wyll that men for theyr synnys sholde be sory in theyr hartes / so wolde he that for the same cause the sorow of theyr hartes sholde redownde in to theyr bodyes / and that we sholde for the prouocacyon of goddys mercy , humble our selfe before hym / and not onely pray for forgyuenesse but also put our bodies to payne and afflyccyon of our owne selfe , & therby to shewe how heuely we take it that we haue offended hym .

And to th entent that we sholde well knowe that fastyng not onely for tamyng of the flesshe , but also for payne to be taken for our synnys , was pleasaunt vnto hym : Leuit. 23. Zachar. 8. he taught hys people by hys prophetes that they sholde faste , and appoynted them certen dayes .

It apperyth also that fastynge was & is pleasaunt vnto god , when men do for de●ocyon to god not onely forbere theyr pleasure , but also parte of theyr necessary sustynauns , in occupyeng the tyme of vsuall fedyng of the flesshe about the plenteouse norysshyng & spyrytuall pamperyng of the soule .

Also vnto the obtaynyng of great spyrytuall gyftes of god & hygh reuelacyons , how specyall a thynge fastyng is / bothe our sauyour declareth hym selse in the gospell of Matthew , Matth. 17. where he sayth that that kynde of deuylles which he dyd caste out of the chylde is not caste out but by prayour & fastyng .

And of all these thynges we haue in holy sayntes lyues so many examples , that it were ouer longe to reherse them . But for as mych as we se well that Tyndale maketh but mokkys of all such maters , and all theyr holy reuelacyons and myracles taketh but for tryfels : we shall sende hym to loke better vppon the good bokes whyche hym selfe hath euyll & of euyll purpose translated , the bookes I mene of the holy scrypture it selfe . For therin shall he se that fastynge serueth not onely to tame the fleshe / but for all these good vses also that we haue spoken of before , and yet for many other mo . And there shall he specyally se the thynge that he is moste lothe to let you se / that fastynge and other bodely afflyccyon eyther taken by commaundement of god and hys chyrche , or wyllyngly taken of our owne good mynde done for our synnys , done in true fayth and deuocyon wyth purpose of amendement , is one of the very specyall thynges that obteyne remyssyon of the synne , releace of the more payne , with gettynge greater grace & increace of goddys fauour / whych thynge is the same that he & his felowes do so sore oppugne , that the whole chyrche of Cryste prestes and laye men bothe , call satysfaccyon / not meanynge that we can do penaunce inough for our synnes , nor that we coulde do any thynge therof at all wythout helpe of grace , nor that all that we can do coulde be wurth a flye to heuenwarde wythout Crystes passyon / but that wyth helpe of grace and merytys of Crystes passyon , our good workes well wrought , helpe to gete remyssyon and purchase vs pardon and releace of payne , and may well be done for that intente , and be by god ordeyned to serue vs to that intente / and for that cause be they by the chyrche called satysfaccyon , for the deuour that we shold do to punysshe at the full our offenses our selfe , that god therby the rather moued wyth mercy shold withdrawe his great heuy punyshement , whych elles he shall cause to be done vnto vs hym selfe , and not so sore yf we i●dge and amende our fawtes our selfe / accordyng to the wordes of the blessed apostle to the Corynthyes : 1. Cor. 11 If we iudged our selfes , we sholde not be iudged of our lord . And surely yf we iudge our self truly , we shal be content to punysshe our selfe .

And that fastyng is one of the good workes that bysyde other good & great godly purpose serueth for satisfaccyon of synne & procuryng of remyssyon , grace , and pardone / & that it serueth not onely for the tamynge of the flesshe as Tyndale here wolde haue it seme : ye shall se to manyfestly proued by many playne placys in euery parte of scrypture .

Fyrst the fastes that Moyses fasted fyrst for the law , and after for the synne of the peple and the synne of Aaron also / were thefe fastes for nothynge but for to tame his flesshe .

Item in .xxi. chapiter of the thryde boke of kynges when Achab had herd these wordes , he tare his garmentis and put on his bodye a shyrte of here , he fasted and slept in a sacke , and went hangynge his hede lowe done / and our lorde sayd to Helyas Thesbites , hast thow not sene how Achab hathe humbled hym before me ? And therfore bycause he hath humbled hym selfe for my sake , I wyll brynge no euyll in dutynge his lyfe . Doth yt not manyfestly appere by these wordes that kyng Achab fasted not for tamyng of his flessh t● kepe yt from wyldnes , but he fasted for the selfe same cause for whych he ware here and slepte in a sacke , that is to wyt to humble him selfe afore the face of god , and to do penaunce in punyshynge hym selfe for his synne to moue thereby almyghty god to mercy , & to the wythdrawyng of his hyghe punyshement , whyche ellys he fered wolde fall vppon hys hede / whych punishement god at the respecte of the kynges humble penaunce and payne of fastynge and other afliccyon wyllyngly taken by hym selfe , dyd mercyfully wythdrawe from hym , so that in all his dayes he suffred hym to fele no parte thereof .

And so may ye se this place of scripture euydent & playne agaynste Tyndale , and that very repentaunce requyreth of the repentaunte person not onely tamynge of the flesshe agaynste the synne immynent or to come , but also punyshement by fastynge and other afflyccyon for the synne all redy done .

And now Cryste hath to cristen men promysed of our synnes forgyuenes , and of our payne releace by vertue of hys payne / but this meaneth he to them that set not theyr owne synnes at so lyght after his great kyndnes shewed , but that theyr own selfe shewe by theyr owne wylf●ll punyshement worthy to suffre payne also them selfe therfore , and then his payne hath gyuen theyr payne the lyfe that maketh yt quycke and auaylable , not ent●ndynge yet that hym selfe so sholde take payne that the synners them selfe sholde synne at theyr pleasure and be saued all wyth ease as Tyndale & Luther wolde make vs wene . For that were the way to make men wanton and wax very bolde in synne .

Forthermore in the fyrste boke of Esdras and the .viii. chapyter yt is wryten thus in the person of the people : we haue fasted and prayed to god for this ( that is to wyt for helpe agaynst our enymyes , & yt is comen prosperousely to passe .

ye may here clerely se this pestylent opinyon of Tyndale wyth few wordes confuted . For this faste was not for tamynge of the flesshe , but for auoydynge of theyr pa●ell .

Agayne in the seconde boke of Esdras and the fyrste chapiter thus sayd Nehemias : when I had herd such tydynges , that is to wyt how the walles of Hierusalem were throwen done , the yates burnt , and the chyldern of Israel in great affliccyon and mysery : I sat downe and wepte and mornyd many dayes , I fasted also and prayed afore the face of the god of heuen .

Lo this faste was not for to tame the flesshe / for the man was in heuynes far from such wanton thynges : but he fasted as he wept and mornyd , to moue god to mercy .

Also the great preste of god Eliachym sayth in the .iiii. of Iudith : Knowe ye that our lorde shall heare your prayers yf ye contynue in fastynge and prayng in the syght of hym ,

I suppose no man is of so symple wyt & vnderstandyng , but he may at the bare rehersall of this brief texte well perceyue that Eliachim dyd not esteme fastyng as Tyndale doth , nother toke yt not onely for a tamynge of the flesshe , but for a meane also to purchace grace wyth remyssyon & pardon , and also to obteyne ayde and helpe of god in that great necessyte .

Is not the .iiii. of Hester also clene contrarye to the doctryne of these deuelyshe prechers of fleshly liberty : Go and assemble ( sayth that good quene ) all the Iewes that thow fyndest in Susan , and praye ye for me . Eate ye not nether drynke not in .iii. dayes and .iii. nyghtes . And I lykewyse wyll fast wyth my maydens .

wolde she that they sholde forbere mete and drynk to the intent that by theyr fastynge they myght tame her flesshe ? nay nor for the tamynge of theyr own neyther . But that by theyr deuoute fastynge and her maydens and her own / they myght prouoke our lorde to pyty● them and preserue them from that immynent parell that they were then all in .

what sayth Toby ? Prayer ( sayth he ) ioyned with fastyng is good . He sayth not this onely for y●ng lusty folke for tamyng of theyr flesshe in auoydyng of intemperaunce , for good crysten fastynge goeth sometyme farre aboue the naturall temperaunce / but he teacheth all men that may wythoute harme to ioyne wyth prayer that payne of fastyng , as a thyng pleasaunt vnto god in such wyse as the prayer is / and yt is a secrete inwarde effectuall prayer when the payne of all the bodye repentynge and punyshynge the synne , cryeth to god for mercy wyth voyce of the mouth .

In the .xxxiiii. chapyt●r of Ecclesiasticus yt is wrytten : The man that fasteth for his synnes and agayn commyteth the selfe same synnes , what auayleth hym this humilytye .

wherby yt is well vnderstanden that he whych fasteth & amendeth hym selfe / his faste auay●eth and is prof●table . And wherfore ? not onely for tamyng of his flesshe for that may be tame inough and yet the man bad inough but yt auayleth for remyssyon of synne and for meryte in heuen . For as holy saynte Austayne saythe : To saye that the faste of a crysten man shall haue no rewarde in heuen is not the opynyon of a true crysten man , but of an heretyque .

The prophete Iohel in the seconde chapyter : And therefore now sayth the lorde turne to me wyth all your herte in fastynge , wepynge , and weylynge . Tere your hertes & not your garmentes , and so forth .

Lo here the prophete exhorteth to fastynge as he doth to harty mornynge and wepyng , not for a countenaunce of sorow , but to be sorofull & to take payne in dede / not in theyr clothes where they fele yt not , but in theyr bodyes and inwardely in theyr hertes where they fele yt thorowly / so that they may therby not onely tame theyr flesshe , but also turne agayne to god , that he may take pytye vppon them and turne agayne to them .

Rede we not in the thyrde chapitre of the ꝓphete Ionas , that god seynge the Niniuytes chastyse and punyshe them selfe wyth fastynge and other afflyccions voluntaryly done vnto them selfe / dyd mercyfully take quyte away the great and greuous punyshement that was at hande ordeyned by hym selfe for theyr synnes and offenses ? wherfore dyd they faste ? for to tame theyr flesshe as Tyndale sayth ? Nay / they fasted and dyd penaunce for theyr synnes , & therwyth purchased pardon whych Tyndale wyll not perceyue .

I coulde here alledge vnto you crysten reders other te●tes owt of the holy prophetes and other places of scripture / as the fyrst chapyter of Iohel , the .ix. of Danyel , the .xxxvi. of Hyeremy , the .xx. of Iudicum , wyth an hundreth places mo very stronge for vs in thys mater of fastynge / but these few may seme to many for a thynge so manyfest and clere . How be it I wyll alledge vnto Tyndale the word●s of our sauyour hym selfe wryten in the .xvii. of Matthew , where he sayth : Thys kynde of deuylles is not cast out but by prayour and fastynge . The holy euangelyst Luke in the .xiiii. chapyter of the apostles actes wryteth thus : when they had ordeyneth them preestes in euery chyrche and had prayed and fasted / they commendyd them to the lorde in whom they beleuyd .

Here may ye clerely se good crysten reder , that the holy and blessyd apostle Paule with many other mo / dyd not fast in thys place for the subduynge of the flesshe and tamynge of bodyly lustes . For they fasted here for other folke , that is to wyt for the prestes to whom they had gyuen holy orders , and for the people whom they had commyttyd vnto theyr charge / that god for theyr deuoute prayours and fastynge sholde gyue encreace of hys grace and fauour among them

Fynally what wyll Tyndale say to the wordes that are wryten in the .vi. of Matthew , and spoken by the mouthe of our sauyour Iesu Cryste , where he sayth : when ye faste make not your selfe sadde lyke hypocrytes , for they waste out theyr faces to the entent it myghte be perceyued that they faste . Forsothe I saye vnto you they haue theyr rewarde all redy . But when thou fastest anoynt thy hed and washe thy face , that it appere not vnto men that thou fastest but vnto thy father whyche is in secrete . And thy father that seeth in secrete , shall rewarde the openly .

Lo dooth not our lord here promyse to rewarde all them that for no desyre of mannys prayse or itch of vayne glory , but of mere humylyte & true repentaunce of herte punysshe theyr body wyth fastynge . whyche one place beyng so playn open & manyfest for the meryte of fastyng though it myght haue ben more then suffycyent to confounde Tyndale and his mayster Luther with all theyr scollers : yet haue I bene therin the longer and haue spoken of thys mater sumwhat the more at large , for the manyfestacyon of theyr greate blyndnesse , and as it semeth malyce to mennys sowle / and for the comforte of them that hytherto haue had the mynde to punysshe the flesshe wyth fastyng , that they do not herafter as vnthryftes haue in Almayne done all redy , leue of theyr deuocyon to god for the fonde bablynge of suche sensuall here tykes . For yf Tyndale wyll saye that yet all thys was no thynge but to tame the flesshe , that the menne myght praye the more quyetly wythout rebellyous mocyons of the flesshe / what so euer he shall say therin consyder the placys and his wordes to gyther , and ye shall fynde all hys processe the●●● a fayre tale of a tubbe . For all be it that Cryste fas●ed fou●●● dayes and after hungered / yet whyther Moyses hungere● in his fourty daies or not we be not very sure . 〈◊〉 And it seme●● well that he dyd , for he wolde not of lykelyhed haue told it for any greate thynge that he fasted for the synne of Aron , & also for the synne of the people so strayghtly fourty dayes that in the whyle he neyther ete nor dranke / yf he neuer had in the whyle ben neyther an hungred nor a thurste .

How be it yf Tyndale wyll brynge all these fastes in questyon : yet of the Nineuites & the other aboue rehersed the●e is no maner of dowte but that they fasted in hunger & thy●●●● . And it were in dede a madde thynge to thynke that whe● they went about to punyshe theyr synnys and humble them selfe before the face of god with fastynge / they fasted but tyll they were a hungred and then gate them to brekfaste . If he wyll saye that the payne of the fastynge was onely to came theyr flesshe that they sholde not synne , he can not so say / for it appereth that they dyd it wyllyngly as well for theyr synnes before passed as for dyuers other causes . If he wyll say that there was dyfference bytwene the repentynge in the olde law and the new , and that there was cause why they sholde punysshe theyr synnes them selfe and not we , bycause Cryst hath now done penaunce for our synnys and had not at that tyme so done for theyrs : it wyll not serue hym , bothe bycause dyuers of the authorytees for fastynge be alledged in the new law , and also bycause the Iewys had the profyte of Crystes passyon by theyr fayth that it was to come & sholde be done , as we haue by the fayth that it is passed and all redy done / and theyr repentaunce and our repentaunce were lyke , sauynge our pryuylege of more habundaunt grace & perdon by the sacrament of penaunce whyche Tyndale goeth about to destroye . If he wyll saye that the fastynge serueth but to kepe the mynde calme and quyete in prayour , from all mocyons of flesshely lu●●es that ellys myghte trouble the mynde : to thys I say that the hungre it selfe maye trouble the mynde and make it lesse quyete , then yf the flesshe were in temperat reste without it . And ouer thys hys answere in that poynt wyll not serue , syth it apperyth well by the cyrcumstaunces in many of the places before towched , that many whych fasted were not in such ease of herte nor lust of body , that theyr prayours were at that tyme lykely to be letted wyth voluptuouse wanton myndes . wherfore let Tyndale say what he wyll : ye shall fynde for trouth that bysydes the tamynge of the body , fastynge and our payne taken therin pleaseth god done with deuocyon , and serueth vs for obtaynynge many and greate gyftes of grace .

Nay sayth Tyndale in hys boke of obedyence as for payne takynge , god is no tyraunt / and therfore reioyceth not in our payne , but pytyeth vs / and as it were mornyth with vs and wolde we sholde haue n●ne , sauynge that lyke a good surgeon he putteth payne of trybulacyon vnto the sores of our synne / bycause the synne can not otherwyse be rubbed owt of the flesshe and cured .

we saye not neyther that god reioyceth in our payne as a tyraunt , all be it that Luther and Tyndale wolde haue vs take hym for such one as had more tyrannouse delite in our payne , then euer had any tyraunt / when they by the takyng awaye of mannys fre wyll woulde make vs wene that god alone worketh all our synne , and then dampneth hys creaturys in perpetuall turmentys for hys owne dede .

But we say that god reioyceth & delyteth in the loue of mannys herte , when he fyndeth it suche as the man inwardly delyteth , & in hys herte owtwardly to let the loue of his herte so redownde in to the body , that he gladly by fastynge & other afflyccyon putteth the body to payne for goddys sake / and yet thynketh for all that , that in comparyson of hys dutye all that is mych lesse then ryght nought .

we saye also that god reioyceth and delyteth in iustyce / & for that cause he delyteth to se a man so delyte in the same , & to take hys synne so sorowfully that he is content of hym selfe by fastyng and other afflyccyon wyllyngly to put hym selfe to payne therfore . And I saye that yf god had not this delyte whyche is not a tyrannou●e but a good and godly delyte / elles wolde he put vnto man no payne for synne at all . For it is playne false that god doth it for necessyte of dryuyng the synne owt of the flesshe as Tyndale sayth he doth , bycause that otherwyse it can not be cured . For it is questyonlesse that god can otherwyse dryue the synne owre of the flesshe , and by other meanys cure it yf it so pleased hym / & so wolde he sauynge for his godly delyte in iustyce whyche he loueth to se man folowe by fastynge and other penauns / & whyche delyte of folowynge goddes pleasure therin , Tyndale in man by wythdrawyng of penaus clene goeth aboute to destroye .

Now where Tyndale as a spirituall ensercher of the cause of euery commaundement of god , dyd in reprouynge the ●●●perstycyouse maner of them , that wythout suche a de●e s●yrytuall serch do kepe goddys commaundement strayghte●● brynge in the examples of Dauyd and hys company which for necessyte dyd eat of the offred halowed brede wherof by the law he sholde not , and of Moyses also leuynge the chyldren contrary to the commaundement of god .xl. yere vncyrcumcysed in desert / he endeth that mater with thys greate weyghty worde : These ensamples myght teche vs many thynges yf th●●● were sprete in vs .

what thinges the euyll sprete that inspirith Tyndale teacheth hym I can not tell . But of any good spyryt he lerneth no ferther in these ensamples , then that in necessyte Moyses the leder of the people vnder god , and beynge also the p●cest of god dyspensed wyth the people in deserte in delaynge the cyrcumcysyon for parell of sodeyn trauell ther vppon ●yll they sholde come where they myght reste vppon it . 1. Reg●● . ●1 And that Achimelech the preste in lyke wyse for necessyte dyspensed wyth Dauyd and hys seruauntes , that they myghte eat of offred halowed brede / and yet wyth greate dyffycultye , but yf they were clene from any late cōmyxcyon and carnall knowledge of theyr wyuys . And of that poynt myghte Tyndale yf he had a good spryte in hym / lerne at the leste wyse one thynge agaynst the boldnesse of his wedded harlottes monkes and frerys , that from theyr fylthy lechery go so boldely not to the halowed brede , but to the body of god in forme of brede . But Tyndales spryte techeth●hym to be bold therin , and to ●yd euery frere boldely breke hys vow and the commaundement without any necessyte or dispensacyon at all / sayng that freres may no more lyue without nunnes then Dauyd myghte wythout meate .

Tyndale .

And lykewyse of the holy daye , he knoweth that the daye is sauaunt vnto man / and therfore when he fyndeth , hat● yt is done because he s●olde not be let from herynge the worde of god , be obeyth gladly / and yet not so superstycyously , that he wolde not ●elpe his neyghbour on the holy daye let the sermon alone for ●●●●ay●or that he wold not worke on the holy day nede requyrynge yt , at suche ●yne as men ●e not wonte to be at chyrche .

More .

Here Tyndale teacheth vs hygh spyrytuall doctryne , that chrysten men sholde not be to superstycyously holy on the holy daye / wenynge that they myghte do no bodyly worke for necessyte . But the people for aught that I se / knowe the well inoughe and more to . But yet to make them the more bolde : he teacheth them that the holy day is seruaunt vnto man , that he maye therfore be bolde vppon the holy daye as vppon hys owne seruaunt to vse it as it please hym .

But yet all be yt that Cryste sayde vnto the Iewes that the sone of man is mayster and lorde euen ouer the sabooeh daye , to vse yt as hym selfe lyste , whych neuer lysted to vse yt but to the beste : yet can I not well se that Tyndale is in suche wyse mayster and lorde of the sabbooth daye , nor no man elles , Mar. 2 that he may vse yt as his man , though yt was of god instytute for man and not man for yt / that is to wyt for the spirytuall benefyte and profyte of man as our sauyour sayth also hym selfe . But yet he calleth yt not seruaunt vnto man as Tyndale calleth yt . Exodi . 1. ● For the scrypture sayth that god hath sanctyfyed the sabbooth day vnto hym selfe .

And that was the cause why that Criste shewed vnto the Iewes that hym selfe was lorde of the sabbat daye , bycause he wolde that they sholde thereby knowe that he was very god / syth that they had lerned by scripture that the sabbat daye was sanctyfyed onely to god hym self for ma●nys profyte and no man lorde therof but onely god . A gouernour of people is made for the people and not the people for the gouernour / and yet is there no man amonge the people wonte to call the gouernour his man , but hym selfe rather the gouernours man . The very manhode of our sauiour hym self was to some purpose ordeyned for mankynde , as the incarnacyon of his godhed was ordeyned for man / but yet vseth no wyse man to call Cryste his seruaunt , all be yt hym selfe of his mekenes dyd morethen serue vs . But we wyll not mych stykke wyth Tyndale for a worde somewhat wrested a wrye / so that we wyste he ment no harme therby .

But I fereme more of his meanyng , leste he wold bryng holy dayes and workynge dayes all in one case . For as for doynge our neyghbour good , and also the workyng for our owne necessyte / the necessyte may be such that the chyrch denyeth yt not . But who so do interprete his necessyte ouer large , or dyfferre vnto the holy daye the worldly workes whyche he myght and sholde haue done vpon the workyng daye byfore , or may as well do yt after , and yet wyll worke yt on the holy daye , and therby wyll for his parte brynge yt in custome to wythdrawe the reuerens from the holy daye & make workynge day therof : this man hathe in my mynde mych nede to consyder . Salphat , whych for lyke vsynge of the holy day , Nume . ●5 gatherynge wood on the holy day that he myght haue done on the workynge daye / was by goddes owne iudgement stoned vnto deth .

And I lyke Tyndale in this mater the worse , bothe for his wordes in his other bokes , and for the custome of his secte now growen in Germany , and also for the onely cause that he fyndeth out here for the kepyng of the holy day , of which he putteth no mo but the onely hearyng of the word of god / so that by the cause whyche he fyndeth out , a crysten man that were eyther in deserte or amonge infydeles where he coulde here no prechyng , sholde haue no more respecte vnto Crystmasse day or Ester day , or whytesontyde , to kepe them for holy dayes hym selfe , then the worst day in the yere , or them wolde a turke hym selfe . And this is his hyghe spirytuall doctrine concernynge the holy daye .

Tyndale .

And so thorow out all la●es , and euen lykewyse in all ceremonyes and sacramentes / be sercheth the sygnyfycacyons and wyll not serue the visyble thynges . It is as good to hym that the pres●e say masse in his gowne as in his other apparell , yf they teache hym not somewhat , and that his soule be edyfyed therby . And as sone wyll he gape●while thou puttest sand as holy salt in his mouth , yf thou shew hym no reason therof / he hadde as seyffe be smered wyth vnhalowed butter as ano●nted wyth vncharmed oyle , yf his soule be not tought to vnderstande somewhat at therby and so forth .

More .

Lo good crysten reder this holy spirytuall man , at laste I wyste well wold somwhat shewe hym selfe , what goostly spyryte inspireth hym . For here you se for all his holy salutacyon at the begynnynge , wyth gay wordes of grace & lyght and fayth and feruent loue : he bloweth and blustreth oute at laste his abhomynable blasphemy agaynst the blessyd sacramentes of Cryste , and lyke the deuyls ape maketh mokkes and mowes at the holy ceremonyes , that the spyryte of god hathe so many hundred yeres taught hys holy catholyque chyrche .

And here perceyue yet the false wylynes of the deuyll in vtterynge of his dreggys and poysoned draught . He couereth his cuppe a lytle and shadoweth the colour of his enuenemed wyne , that yt may be dronken downe gredely ere the parell be perceyued . For he maketh here as though he founde no faute , but in that the sygnyfycacyons of the sacraments be not opened and declared vnto the people , as though yf that were done he were contente / and that he mokketh not the sacramentes but the mynysters that openeth not the bytokenynges therof .

But I shall fyrste shewe you that he playeth the deuyls dysor euyn in this poynte , all though he ment no ferther / & then shall I farther shewe you what myschyef he meaneth more , and proue yt you by expresse wordes of his owne .

Fyrste I saye yt is a lewde and a knauysshe raylynge vppon the sacramentes of our sauyour Cryste , to lyken and compare them in any maner wise vnto such scornefull thynges , as the anoyntynge wyth holy oyle vnto butter smeryuge , wyth other suche lyke knauysshe toyes whyche no wreche wolde do but such as hath the very name of the holy sacramentes in hatereth and dyspyte .

Now where he sayeth that his holy spirytuall sorte wyll alway so vyllanousely esteme the sacramentes , but yf men tell them the reasons and bytokenynges of them to the edyfyenge of theyr soules : yt wyll be great besynes and mych a do to edyfye and buyld vp the soules of such a sorte , which the deuyll hathe by the blaste of his mouth throwen downe so depe and frusshed all to fytters . But I praye god to whom nothynge is impossyble / to byeld them onys agayne vppon the rokke of his fayth , from whiche they shew them self so farre fallen down that they be full vnlykely to ryse . For truly if they stode theruppon theyr hertys wolde abhorre to vttre suche frantyque fantasyes . For as touchynge the sygnifycacyons and bytokenynges of the blessed sacramentes , the lacke of knowlege wherof Tyndale wolde make seme a suffycyent cause of his vilanouse blasphemy : all good peple that haue the vse of reason and come to these sacramentes wyth good deuocyon , be taught and do thynke and conceyue in theyre hertes , that god was incarnate and borne god and man for our saluacyon , and suffred his passyon , and dyed for our redempcyon , and that we were redemed to heuen wyth his blessyd blood , and that wythout hym we sholde neuer haue ben saued but had vtterly loste heuen by the synne of Adam / and for this cause we call hym our sauyour and beleue that he hath promysed vs that yf we be crystened and kepe his holy commaundementes , and for the brekyng be sory and turne agayne by penaunce / god wyll brynge vs to heuen that he hath promysed vs and bought vs to . And they beleue th●● he hath ordeyned here holy sacramentes , whych he wyll that we shall receyue wyth reuerence , and that euery man wyth those sensyble sacramentes excepte the faute be in hym selfe , receyueth some inwarde grace & ayde of god by the merytes of Crystes passyon and by his holy promyse and ordinauns / so that vnto all good crysten men the outwarde sensyble sygnes in all the sacramentes and holy ceremonyes of crystes chyrch , by one generall and comen sygnyfycacyon of them all , bytoken and do sygnyfye and that ryght effectually , an inwarde secrete gyfte and inspiracion of grace ●ffused in to the soule wyth the receyuyng of that holy sacrament by the holy spirite of god .

This comen sygnifycacyon of the sacramentes haue all the comenaltye of crysten people / & they beleue not onely that the sacramentes be tokens of suche grace and do sygnifye it , but also be in some maner wyse a meane to come to the getynge therof , bycause god hath so ordeyned .

But vnto Tyndale & his holy spirituall sorte , this gere is yet to groce for theyr subtyll thynne wyttes .

For that all crysten people haue this fayth and sygnyfycacyon of sacramentes , Tyndale can not denye them / but if he lyste to bylye them .

But why trow you can not this sygnifycacyon serue . Tyndale ? veryly bycause he byleueth yt not / for he byleueth not that any ceremonye or sacrament eyther is in the worke therof any meane to get any grace at all . And in almoste all the sacramentes he playnly saythe that they neyther cause any grace nor any grace do sygnifye , nor be no sacramentes at all / as by his owne wordes I shall hereafter shew you .

But in the meane while for as mych as in his preface here he maketh as though he cared but for the declaracyon of the tokens and sensyble sygnes of the sacramentes and ceremonyes : I haue shewed hym the great and chyef sygnifycacion of all / that is to wyt that they betoken the insensyble grace that god geueth them in to the soule thorow the merytes of Crystes holy passyon . And this is the very chyef sygnifycacyon that all holy doctours note & marke in the sacramentes / as apperyth by the dyffynicyons that in theyr bokes they geue therunto .

But nowe wyll not Tyndale sette a strawe the more by the anoyntynge wyth holy oyle / then by smerynge wyth vnhalowed butter , but yf men tell hym some ferther thynge therby that may edyfye hys soule and make it better . For as for grace edyfyeth not his soule / for god byeldeth not so fast therwyth as hym selfe helpeth the deuyll to pull it downe agayne and cast it quyte away , so that it is neuer the better . And therfore he wyll that hys holy spyrytuall sorte shall set all the holy ceremonyes and sacramentes at naught , but yf men can tell them what other specyall thynge is ment by the water of baptysme , and by the oyle in confyrmacyon and eneylynge , and by the cerymonyes of the masse , and by the salte , and by the asshes , and by the holy water , & by the blessynge of all suche maner of thynges / vppon all whych for the meanwhyle tyll all thys be tolde & taught hym , he thynketh that it becometh hym well agaynst crystes holy sacramentes to ieste and mokke and mow and rayle and skofe and ryally playe the rybawld resemblyng the salte to sand and the holy oyle to smeryng of some bareld butter . Ah blasphemouse beste to whose rorynge and lowynge no good crysten man can with out heuynes of herte gyue ere .

Nowe can men and do also for the more parte of these thynges gyue good causes and playne open reasons , bothe of the sygnyfycacyons and of the spyrytuall profyte and bodyly bothe . And yf that of any suche sacramentes or ceremonyes gyuen of olde by god vnto his blessyd apostles , and by them delyuered vnto hys chyrche , and therin euer synnys fro hand to hand contynewed / it hath pleased the spyryte to let his people haue and enioye the profyte wythout declaracyon of the specyall betokenynge , other then the secrete grace gyuyn than therin : is not Tyndale wene ye well ouer seen to mocke the sacrament and refuse the grace , bycause god wyll not make hym so secret of hys counsayll as to tell hym why he toke such an owtward sygne rather then suche an other / and then aske god almyghty why he wolde rather haue vsed for a ceremonye salte then sande whyle sande is so good a scorer , and why rather asshes then erthe syn man was made of erthe and not of asshes , and why in baptysme rather water then wyne whyle wyne wyll wasshe as clene , & why rather oyle then butter whyle the tone wyll sinere aswell as the tother wyll anoynte , and then why rather an halowed candell then an vnholowed torche that wyll gyue more lyght , and fynally why any bodyly ceremonyes or sacramentes at all , about grace to be gyuen to the spyrytuall sowle that god myghte aswell do wythout / and yf god lyste not to make Tyndale an answere and tell hym all thys gere : then wyll he lyke a spyrytuall man set all suche bodyly ceremonyes & sacramentes at nought / and say god what he wyll , Tindale wyll glose hys texte as it please hym , and then byleue as he lyste who shall let hym .

when our lorde in the olde testament descrybed so seryously all the apparell of the preestes / dyd he tell the people therwyth all the causes why . Exodi . 28 Of sume we se that he dyd , as why he wolde not haue Aaron ascende vnto the awlter by degrees But of all hys apparell , Exodi . 2● . Exodi . 26. ● , 27. ●euiti●i . 16. Exodi . 29 and all the fasshyon of the tabernacle , and the awlter , and the arche of the testament , and the ceremonyes of the expiacyon or purgyng of the tabernacle , and sanctyfyeng of all the vessels , and consecratynge of the preestes wyth the rytys and ceremonyes of all theyr sacryfyce : dyd god I saye tell the people what all the outwarde ceremonyes fygnyfyed ? nay , nor what sygnyfycacyon had the sacrament of cyrcūsycyon neyther , other then that who so obserued it not amonge them sholde fall in hys indygnacyon and therby perysshe● and who so fulfylled it sholde be in hys fauour and ascrybed therby in to the nomber of hys electe and peculyer chosen peple . But why he rather wylled them to haue the marke and token of cyrcumsicyon then an other , or why that in the tabernacle , arche , and awlter , apparell , sanctyfyeng , and sacryfyce , our lorde chose those outward sygnes and fasshyons that are wryten in Exodo , Numeri , and Leuitico before other , or what he sygnyfyed and ment by euery of the same : that I se not that god taughte the people / and yet had they thanke for the kepynge , and sholde haue ben shent for the brekynge .

Now yf our spyrytuall father Tyndale had ben there , that in euery commaundement wyll neuer cease serchynge tyll he come to the very botom and so iudgeth all thynge / when he sholde in all those thynges haue serched and sowght and cowlde fynde few thynges other then allegoryes , of whyche dyuerse men dyuersly diuyne , and all whyche he lyttell setteth by , and sayth they proue nothyng / and the very causes and sygnyfycacyons he cowlde not haue founden though he wolde haue mused out hys brayne : then wolde he not haue set a ry●●he by all that god had deuysed nor wolde haue kept it at all , lest he beynge so spyrytuall sholde haue serued as he sayth visyble thynges . Is nothere a wyse worke of Tyndale .

But he wyll happely say that in the olde law thys was lesse mater / for that was the law that was all in shawdoes and darkenes of fygures . But now in the law of lyghte in whyche the veyle is taken away and all set open : Tyndale can not abyde it to be ignorant of any sacrament or cerymonye of any thynge set therby , but yf he serche and fynde the vttermost sygnyfycacyon therof . Surely as lyghtsome as it is , and as open as all thynge is now that the veyle of the temple is withdrawen : yet wyll not Tyndale fynde out the proper causes and sygnyfycacyons of these sacramentes and ceremonyes of the olde law , thys seuen yere seuentene tymes tolde .

But go me to the new law & to those sacramentes which Tyndale agreeth for sacramentes , whyche be onely twayn , baptysme and the sacrament of the awter / in whych though he be content to call them sacramentes , yet hath he dyuersefull erronyouse opynyons and very fals faythes . But begynne therfore as I sayd at baptysme , when our sauyoure shewed vnto Nichodemus that except a man were borne agayne of water and the spyryto , I●●an . ● he cowlde not enter in to the kyngedome of heuyn : he tolde hym there the necessyte of baptysme , but not the proper sygnyfycacyon of the water why it pleased god to put it for the sacrament , by whyche we sholde enter in to heuyn . Nor when he sent hys disciples to go forth and baptyse : he shewed them not as farre forth as the gospell telleth , for what proper sygnyfycacyon god set the water in that sacrament before any other thynge / but onele shewed them that so he wolde it sholde be , & bad them go shewe it and do it . Nor I fynde not that in theyr baptysynge , they shewed vnto the people that thyng , that bycause water wassheth and clenseth , therfore god had appoynted it vnto the sacrament that wassheth and clenseth our soules . And yet who so shall say that the water hath for that cause a conuenyent symylytude for the mater / shall saye very well . And he shall also saye well , that wyll saye as doth the holy apostle Paule , Co●●s . 2 where he lykeneth the baptysme to a kynde of beryenge wyth our lord in hys sepulcre , and the rysynge out therof to a kynde and maner of risyng agayne with our lorde in hys resurreccyon in to a new maner & kynde of clene lyfe . And when he sheweth that the brede is made one of many greynes or cornes , and the wyne made one of many grapes : he toke a very conuenyent allegorye and symylytude and sygnyfycacyon where vppon he myghte shewe that all we chrysten people that are made pertycypant of that holy brede and that holy wyne , chaunged and turned in cryst● holy flesshe and blood ( of whyche twayne euery one is euer more with the other ) ought of many men to be made as one and in Cryst and with Cryst our hed , encorporate all in one mystycall body .

But yet though these thynges be meruelously well sayd and other thynges mo bothe haue ben and may be founden , that may be well alleged for good and conuenyent sygnyfycacyons of those two sacramentes : yet doth not the apostle tell vs that those sygnyfycacyons be the very thynges and the onely propretees for whyche god appoynted those outward sygnes of water in the tone sacrament and brede and wyne in the tother byfore all other ●ensyble thynges , of whiche he myght haue made the outwarde sygnes of those sacramentes yf it had lyked hym . But as the hygh knowlege of god for saw all those propretees that haue ben founden , and all that any man cowlde fynde forther therin : so saw he many moo peraduenture whyche no man hath founden yet , and wh●rof he hath made no man of hys counsayle / no more then why he wolde haue any vysyble token at all in the thynge whyche he cowlde haue pe●fytlydone wythout them and in many personys hath so done and doth .

And therfore Tyndale taketh and euyll way to stykke vppon that poyute so styffely , that he letteth not wyth open blasphemy to say that he had as leue sande as holy salte , and be smered wyth vnhalowed b●tter as anoynted wyth the holy chrysme , whyche he calleth charmed oyle , bycause god wyll not shewe hym euery specyall thynge that they sygnyfy besyde the generall sygnifycacyon of inuysyble grace , for that is comonly taught all redy , and euery specyall sygnyfycacyone that the scrypture expresseth is openly preched also . And bys●des that , suche ●ygnyfycacyons as are not there expressed & may seme conuenyent for them , be bothe taught and wryten . what wyll Tyndale aske more ?

But no reason can contente hym / for he sayth playnly , that who so euer do not vnderstande all the sygnyficacions of all the outwarde sygnes in the sacramentes : yt were as good to leue the sacramentes vnmynystred vnto hym as mynystred . where vppon yt foloweth whereso euer at an Ester the people sholde be houseled , all be yt that they be taught and do byleue that in the forme of brede is the very holy body of our sauyour Cryste hym selfe , and that yf they receyue hym wyth vnbylyef oute of hope or oute of charyte , and be not in peace and crysten loue wyth all people , or ●ntende to kepe styll & contynew in any dedly synne , they receyue theyr housell to theyr harme and parell of dampnacion / and yf they receyue yt the contrarye wyse , they shall re●eyue of god great spirytuall grace therwyth , thorow goddes holy ordynaunce by the merytes of Crystes passyon / and so haue geuen them such good counsell and exhortacyon on farther as the pore preste can : yet thynketh Tyndale that except he tell them ferther other sygnifycacyons of the sacrament , the peple were as good vnhowseled as howseled . But god be thanketh he is eyther deceyued or lyeth .

Now foloweth yt also that yf the sacrament were as good vnmynistred as mynistred to who so euer is not taught the proper sygnifycacyons of the outwarde token in the sacrament , as Tyndale here vnder a blasphemous iestynge fasshyon telleth vs : then foloweth yt I saye that there was neuer chylde crystened synnys crystendome fyrst begane , but that yt hadde bene as good to haue lefte it vncrystened , and neuer to haue let water touche yt , bycau●e yt coulde not be taught what the water sygnifyed . And let hym say what he wyll , but how so euer he couer and colour yt for the whyle / surely so wold he haue yt . For whyle he goth aboute to geue all our saluacyon to fayth alone , and to take all grace & all meryte vtterly from all outward workes , and yet seeth that he may not boldely at the begynnyng vtterly dyspyse baptysme nor the blessed sacrament of the auter : he wolde go fyrst as nere yt as he may . And therfore reiectynge the remanaunt by and by / he suffreth them twayne to tary for the whyle . But he wyll haue them serue but for bare sygnes & tokens , and sayth that they profyte nothynge , but onely by the declaracyon of theyr sygnifycacyons . And thereby meaneth he fyrst that where so euer occasyon of such declaracyon fayleth : there the sacrament sholde serue of nought . And so ye se that as for chyldern he wolde haue none baptysed in dede / and that thynge ones obteyned , wythin a whyle after no more he wolde no menne neyther .

Lo thus ye se to what a dyuelyshe ende Tyndals tale commeth , wyth his rebauldouse raylynge vppon the sacramentes , all though he ment no worse then he maketh for here in his preface / in which he wolde peraduenture seme to meane none other , but that the sacramentes coulde serue of nought , excepte theyr proper sygnyfycacyons were declared and taught to them that receyue them , other sygnifycacyons or otherwyse declared than they haue ben wonte these many hundred yeres to be . wherin if he ment but so / yet haue I shewed you many festly that he hath a very frantyke foly therin .

But to th entent that ye shall not be so deceyued by hym : I shall shewe you farther that he meaneth yet mych worse / & that he meaneth vtterly as he playnly sayth / that of the .vii. holy sacramentes fyue be none at all , & that thoder twayne be nothynge fr●tefull neyther . And ye shall farther well perceyue , that Tyndale hym selfe in neyther nother of the twayn , that is to wyt neyther in baptysme nor in the sacrament of the auter / doth byleue a ryght . For the clere perceyuynge of all whych thynges / I shall reherse you his own wordes wryten in diuerse places of his abhominable boke of obedience . And fyrste wyll we speke of these fyue whych he sayth be no sacramentes at all / that is to wyt confyrmacyon , penaunce , order , matrymony , and anelynge .

Tyndale .

That they call confirmacyon , the people call byshoppynge . They thynke that yf the byshope butter the chylde in the forhed , that than yt is safe .

More .

If I sholde here call Tyndale by a nother name , yt were no nyk name at all / and yet wolde there some then say , that yt were not honest so to do / & this wyll some such folke say , as in the vyllanouse wordes of his spoken by this blessyd sacrament , wyll fynde no faute at all . But me semeth surely that at the fyrste herynge of such a shamell worde spoken by the mouth of such a shamelesse heretyque by this holy sacrament of Cryste : the hole crysten company present , sholde not be able to contayne them selfe from callyng hym knaue all wyth one voyce at onys .

Now where as there be for the sacrament both of confyrmacyon & of holy orders , open & manyfest places in holy scrypture , Actuum .8 Hebre. 6 2. Timoth. 1 aswell in the actys of the apostles as in the pistles of saynt Paule / by whych placys yt apperyth playnly that by the apostles handes layd vpon them whych were before baptysed , they had the holy goost geuen in them / and by thandes of saynt Paule layd vpon Tymothee in makyng him prest , he receyued of god a specyall grace wyth that holy order / and lykewyse the deacons by the puttynge of the apostles handes vppon them in the gyuynge them that order : Act● . 6 Tyndale telleth vs in his boke of obedyence that all this is nothynge , and that the laynge of the apostles handes vppon them was but a maner of the countre , as a man putteth his hande here vppon a boyes hed and stroketh yt when he calleth hym good sone . were not the tyme well loste that were spent vppon Tyndale in allegynge holy scripture to hym , that can fynde in his herte thus to gyue yt a mokke in stede of an answere ? he sayth that the scripture and the sacraments be not both of one authoryte / but he maketh them bothe a lyke when he mokketh them both a lyke .

Of matrymonye .

Tyndale .

Matrimonye ( sayth he ) was or●eyned of god for an of●yce , wherin the husbande serueth the wyffe , and the wyfe the husbande . It is ordeyned for a remedye and to encreace the world , and not to sygnyfye any promyse that euer I herd or redde of in the scripture It hath a promyse that we synne not in that state , yf a man take his wyfe as goddys gyfte , and the woman her husbande lykewyse / as all manner of ●●eate hath a promyse that we synne not yf we vse them mesurably wyth thankes to god . If they call matrymonye a sacrament , bycause the scrypture vseth the symylytude of matrimonye , to expresse the maryage or wedloke that is bytwene vs and Cryste : so wyll I make a sacrament of mus●erd seed , leuen , a nette , kayes , brede , water , and a thousande other thynges .

More .

This holy sacrament of matrymonye was bygonne by god in paradyse , and whych when he bygan , he there instytuted to sygnyfye the coniunccyon bytwene hym selfe and mannys soule , and the coniunccyon bytwene Criste and his chyrch / for whych saynt Paule sayth that yt is a great sacrament , and for such euer more hath yt bene taken in Crystes chyrche . Ephe. 5 And though in those whyche for his sake forberyth yt he coupleth hym self to theyr soules with more grace : yet in that couplyng of matrymonye ( yf they couple in hym ) he coupleth hym selfe also to theyr soules wyth grace , accordynge to the sygne that is to wyt the maryage whyche he hath set to sygnyfye that grace / and wyth that grace yf they applye to worke therewyth , he helpeth them to make theyr maryage honorable , and theyr bedde vndefyled . And wyth that grace also he helpeth them towarde the good educacyon and bryngynge vp of such chyldren as shall come bytwene them .

And to this effecte wayed that holy blessynge that god ●ene . ● gaue our fyrst father and mother in paradyse / whyche blessynge reason wyll that we take and vnderstande to haue bene geuen by god , accordyng the kynde of them that yt was geuen to / that is to wytte to worke not in the bodye onely of reasonable folke , but mych more effectually to exercyse his strength in the resonable soule . where as Tyndale wyll that goddys blessynge was no better to mankynde then to the kynde of dogges and cattes / wherby sholde yt allmoste folowe that in generacyon vsed onely for respecte of goddys commaundement , had ben towarde god no more meritoryouse then to those other kyndes of brute bestes , the gettyng of a whelpe or a kytlynge .

And where saynte Paule for those holy sygnifycacyons sayth that matrymonye is a great sacrament , Tyndale dare say nay to his teeth / and sayth he can make as good a sacrament of leuen , of kayes , of mus●●●d seed , or ellys of a net . He sholde rather yet leste the grace get oute perde make yt of a sakke . But there is no grace therin sayth he . And why say we . Bycause sayth he that god hathe none promysed● whereby wote you that saye we . For I neuer redde yt in scrypture sayth he . where rede you then in scripture say we that god hath made you a promyse that he neuer made promyse nor neuer none wolde make , but he wold fyrste sende you worde by wrytyng . what Tyndale can saye to this I can not tell . But tyll he can say better to this then euer hym self or his mayster eyther could say to yt yet , or euer shall saye whyle they lyue / euery man may sone se what menne may say to hym .

Luther yet in his boke of Babilonica , where he sayth as Tyndale now sayth that matrymonye where saynte Paule sayth yt is a great sacrament , hath no grace nor is no sacrament : he answereth sayn● Paule well and pertely and sayth , that saynte Paule sayed yt peraduenture of his owne hed not of goddes spiryte . Then when the kynges grace had answered hym , and that he saw that for aught he could do men wold beleue saynt Paule better then hym , & that styll folke toke matrymony for a sacrament , and that they though that to faythfull folke god wyth that holy knot gaue grace towarde the kepynge and ordeyned yt hym selfe so to do : he swore then in great anger and made a great vowe that he wolde playnly proue the contrary , and ranne out of religyon and wedded fleynge cate his nunne , to shew to the world hym selfe a matrymonye of his owne makynge , that was neyther any holy sacrament nor had any grace therin . And tyll that Tyndale do the same as he sayth prestes both may & muste : he shall neuer any other waye proue his conclusyon trew whyle he lyueth .

Of the sacrament of aneylynge , these be his wordes .

Tyndale .

Aneylynge is wythout promyse , and therfore wythout the spyryte , and with out profyte , but all to geder vnfrutefull and superstycyouse .

Here is a shorte sentence and a false erronyouse iudgement gyuen by Tyndale , vppon all crysten people that haue ben aneyled synnys crystendome fyrst began . And he is ledde therto by two specyall motyues / the tone foly , the tother falsshed . For of hys foly he rekeneth hym selfe sure euery thyng to be false that is not euydently wryten in holy scrypture / whyche one thynge is the tone halfe of all the fals fundacyon wheruppon Luther and Tyndale haue bylded all theyr heresyes . For vppon thys Tyndale sayth there is not any promyse of thys sacrament wryten in scrypture : erg● there was no promyse made by god . whyche argument is so good , that euery boye in scolys laugheth it to scorne & well they may / for all the worlde can neuer make it good .

Hys other motyue is falsede , whyche is the antecedent of the same argument / that is to wyt that thys sacrament hath no promyse in scrypture . For it hath an expresse promyse in the ●pystle of saynt Iamys / where he byddeth that yf any be syk , Iacobi .5 he shall induce the preestes to come and praye for hym and anoynte hym wyth oyle , & the prayour of ●ayth shall hele the syk man / and yf he be in synne they shall be forgyuen hym . Nay sayth Tyndale here we maye se that the aneylynge doth nothynge / for saynt Iamys sayth that the prayour of fayth shall hele the man . Thys is a sure argument . Lo , bycause saynt Iamys geueth the great effecte to the faythfull prayour : therfore the oyle doth nothynge at all . If it do nothynge at all towarde the remyssyon of synnes : why wolde saynt Iamys haue it there , that myght sauyng for the sacrament as well be thens as there / except that Tyndale wene that saynt Iamys were so wyse in naturall thynges , that he thought oyle a mete medycyne for euery sore .

Thys place in saynt Iamis dyd so preace vppon Luther / that he was fayne to say that the epystle was neuer of saynt Iamys makynge , nor nothynge had in it of any apostolycall spyryt / but he that so sayd was full of an apostatycall spyryte .

Of the sacrament of penauns .

Tyndale .

Penauns is a word of theyr owne forgynge , to deceyue vs with all .

More .

Here ye se that the sacrament of penauns he setteth at lesse then nowght / for he sayth it is but a thynge forged and contryued to deceyue vs with . But euery good crysten man knoweth that such folke as he is , that agaynst the sacrament of penauns contryue and forge suche false heresyes / sore deceyue them selfe , and all them whom the deuyll blyndeth to byleue them . Now when he hath spoken his pleasure of the thynge : ye shall here what he sayth of the partes .

Of confessyon .

Tyndall

Shryft in the eare is verely a worke of Sathan , and that the falseste that euer was wrought , and that moost hath deuowred the fayth .

More .

If the deuyll sholde hym self syt & deuise to speke spyghtfully / what coulde he say more lyke hym selfe agaynste this parte of the holy sacrament of penauns , them he now speketh by the mouth of thys hys holy spyrytuall man .

Here hathe ben a shrew● sort of crysten folke thys .xv. hundred yere / yf euery man haue serued Sathan all the whyle they were a shryuynge .

ye maye se now to what perfeccyon thys gere groweth wyth Tyndale .

Luther yet that was Tyndales mayster , as lewde as he is played neuer the blasphemouse fole agaynst confessyon so farre yet as Tyndale doth . For Luther all be it he wolde make euery man and euery woman to , suffycyent and meately to serue for a confessour : yet confesseth he that shryfte is very necessary and dothe mych good , and wolde in no wyse haue it le●●e . But Tyndale amendeth the mater , and sayth it is the very worke of Sathan / & they therfore serue Sathan and worke hys worke yf they shryue them selfe secretly and speke softely at the preestes ere . But by lykelyhed he meaneth that yf they speke owt lustely that euery man may here them , all is well inough . For wyll waw forbade rownyng .

Of satysfaccyon .

He wyll that we shall for oure synnes nomore but onely repente . For as for goynge about to punysshe our selfe any thynge for oure owne synnys , by penauns doynge , wyth fastynge , prayour , almeyse dede , or any bodyly afflyccyon that god maye haue the more mercye vppon vs , whyche thynge all good chrysten people haue euer vsed to do , and whyche the chyrche calleth satysfaccyon : thys thynge Tyndale calleth as ye shall here .

Tyndale .

Synne we thorow fragilyte neuer so o●●e , yet as sone as we repent and come in to the ryght waye agayne , and vnto the testament whych god hath made in Crys●es blood : our synnes vanysh awaye as smoke in the wynde , and as darkenes at the commynge of syght , or as thou cast a lytle blood or melke into the mayne see . In so mych that who euer goeth aboute to make satisfaccyon for his synnes to god warde , sayeng in his herte , thus mych haue I synned , thus mych wyll I do agayne , or this wyse wyll I lyue to make amendes wyth all , or this wyll I do to gete heuen wyth all : the same is an infidele , faythlesse , and damned in his dede doynge , and hath lost his parte in Crys●es blood , bycause he is diso●edyēt vnto goddes testament , and setteth vp a nother of his owne imaginacyon , vnto whych he wyll compell god to obey . If we loue god : we haue ● commaundement to loue our neyghbour also , as sayth Iohn in his pystl . And yf we haue offended hym to make him amendes / or yf we haue not wherewith , to aske hym forgyuenesse , and to do and to suffer all thynges for his sake to wynne hym to god and to norish peace and vnyte : but to go●warde Cryste is an euerlastynge satisfaccyon and euer suffycyent .

The begynnyng of these wordes seme very godly , for the magnyfyeng of the great mercy of god . But consyder the hed , the myddes , and the tayle to gether & ye shall sone perceyue that he bosteth mercy , but to mak● a man haue so lytell care for hys synne and maketh hym selfe so sure of sodayne and short remyssyon , that he shall forse full lytell how sone he fall therto , when he beleueth that how often so euer he synne or how sore , there nedeth hym no more but onely bare repentauns , and then all forgeuen and forgetten synne and payne and all euen by and by an hundred tymes in a daye . Neyther purgatory nede to be fered when we go hens , nor penauns nede to be done whyle we be here / but synne and be sory and syt and make mery , and then synne agayne and then repent a lytell and ronne to the ale & wasshe away the synne , thynke ones on goddys promyse and then do what we lyste . For hopynge sure in that , kyll we .x. men on a daye we cast but a lytell blood in to the mayne see . But he that setteth so mych by hys synne and is so sory therfore , that to prouoke our lord to mercy the more by punysshynge hym selfe , and takynge payne therfore , eyther of hys owne mynde or by penaunce enioyned : he is a starke heretyke , it were euyn almese to burne hym . For he that wyll take any payne for his owne synne / weneth that Crist had not payne inough . Is not here a mad doctryne of hym that wolde seme a crysten man .

For as for that he telleth hys tale , as though men dyd reken theyr penauns for a thynge suffycyent to satysfye for theyr synne / that is but a pece of hys poetrye . For he is not so folysshe but that he knoweth well inowgh that all christen men byleue that no penauns is of it selfe suffycyent for the leste synne , but the passyon and payne of Cryste maketh our penaunce auaylable , to them that set not so lytell by theyr synne , but that they be content and thynke them selfe well worthy to take payne and penaunce for theyr synne them selfe .

But bycause he wyll that men repent the doyng of theyr synne , and then no more but fayth : I wolde wyt of Tyndale what calleth he repentynge , a lytell short sorow , or a great sorow and a longe ? If a lytell prety sorow and very shortely done : I wolde as fayne he sayed trew as I fere that he lyeth . If a great seruent sorow wyth grefe and trouble of mynde , not shortely shot ouer but kepte & contynued longe : then force I lytell of his heresye . For no dowte is it but that Tyndals tale to suche a man shall seme god wote full fond . For he that hath suche repentaunce , wyll to shryfte I warraunt you , and take penaunce of the preste , & do mych more there to what so euer Tindale tell hym . And he that is cristened & careth for no shryfte : repenteth neuer a dele / but they that repente not at all be Tyndals repentaunt synners .

wyll ye se that it is so ? Go me to Martyn Luther the fyrst mayster of Tyndale in thys mater , though now hys scoler passeth hym . whyle that frere lyeth with his nonne , & woteth well he doth nought , and sayth styll he doth well : let Tyndale tell me what repentynge is that . He repenteth euery mornynge , and to bedde agayne euery nyghte / thynketh on goddys promyse fyrste , and then go synne agayne vppon truste of goddys testament / and then he calleth it castynge of a lytell mylk in to the mayne see .

Of the sacrament of order .

Tyndale .

By a preste in the new testament , vnderstande nothynge ellys but an elder , to teache the yonger , to brynge them to the full knowlege and vnderstandyng of Cryste , and to mynystre the sacramentes whych Cryste ordeyned .

More .

By the wordes , he meaneth that the holy order is no sacrament , nor is nothyng ellys but an elder to teache the yonger , and to mynystre the sacraments suche as Cryste ordeyned . And in this wyse he sayth we be all prestes both men and women to . For he sayth in the same boke precysely and in this boke to , that women may consecrate the holy body of Crist. Agaynste whych folysh blasphemouse bablynge were very great foly to dyspute , syth of as many good holy vertuouse women as hathe bene in crystendone syth crystes deth vnto this daye / was there neuer none yet but that her harte wold haue abhorred , yf such an hygh p̄sumptuous thought shold ones haue fallen in her mynde .

And what wold yt auayle to dyspute wyth hym , syth he mokketh and skoffeth out the wordes of saynte Paule wrytten vnto Tymothe / in whyche the sacrament of order ys so playnly proued , that all the worlde can not denye yt , but yf they make a mokke at saynt Paule as Tyndale doth .

Now in that he sayth the sacramentes that Cryste ordeyned / he meaneth nothynge ellys but his playne heresyes agaynst all the sacramentes saue twayne / that is baptysme and the sacrament of the aute● , as yt haue all redy sene in all the remanaunt . And now syth he leueth but then twayne / I pray you consyder how holyly he handeleth them twayne , and ye shall se that he myght allmost as well deny them both as handle them after the fashyon . And fyrste here how he handeleth the holy sacrament of baptysme .

Of the sacrament of baptysme , these be his wordes .

Tyndale .

The sacramentes which Criste hym self ordeyned , which haue also promises and wolde saue vs yf we knew them and byleued them / them they mynyster in the latine tonge . So a● they also bycome as vns●rutefall as the tother .

And after he sayth forther : Baptisme is called volowy●ge in ma●ny places in Englande , bycause the preste sayth volo saye ye . The chylde was well volued say they / ye and our vicare is as fayre volwer as any preste wyth in this twentye myses .

More .

All this great scoffynge ariseth onely , bycause that chyldern be crystened in latyne . For whyche onely cause he sayth that the baptysme is vtterly frutelesse / ye & by his tale worse then frutelesse to . For he sayth they be now in lyke cause as ar the tother sacramentes , whych he sayth haue no promyse in scrypture , and therfore are ( he sayth ) supersticyouse . And lo thus fyrst ye se that as longe as euer any chyldern haue in Englande ben crystened in laten / there was neuer chyld● the better for the cristendome . And then yf this lye be trew : there is yet neuer a crysten man nor neuer a crysten woman in all England , excepte happely som well latyned Iewes conuertyd , or ellys suche Englysh chyldern as lerned theyr grammer in theyr mothers bely .

Howe be yt I wolde euery other thynge were as ethe to mende as this is / for this mater may be sone eased . It may be now vppon this faute founden , be prouyded vppon Tyndales counsell that all the Englyshe chyldern shall be crystened in englyshe , and then they shall vnderstande all the mater well inough ye wote well , and speke for them selfe to .

But then fyndeth Tyndale twoo great fautes for which he sayth that all the baptisyng of the chylde is fruteles . One he sayth bycause of the false byleue that the plungyng in the water saueth them / a nother for that the promyse is not taught them .

But there I wolde fayne wyt of Tyndale , syth he sayth that the baptysme is frutelesse for such causes , and syth he muste nedes meane at the tyme of the cristenynge , for yf he shold meane no more but that the chylde sholde lease the frute at lenght for lake of suche instruccyon after , then were his wordes false though he sayde therin trewe / for then were not bapaysme vnfrutefull , for yt were very frutefull at the leste wise to a great many that god calleth hens ere euer the lacke of such lernyng can be layed to theyr charge : thus I saye Tyndale must nedys meane therfore , that for these fautes the frute of the baptisme is lost euen at the fonte , & no grace goten therby / or ellys his tale were false . And ye wote well in no wyse wyll he lye for that were poetrye .

Now syth he sayth then , that the baptysme is frutelesse at the founte for these causes : I wolde wit of hym whyther it be voyde because these thynges be not at the fount preached to the godfathers , or because they be not preached there vnto the chyld yt self . If he say that yt is frutelesse for lakke of prechyng there vnto the chyld yt self : then I deny not but the Tyndale sayth ryght well and reasonable , and I shall speke to the persone of our parysshe that he shall preche to the chyld at the fount , and tell hym many good talis in his ere . But surely yf he say that the baptysme is frutelesse at the founte for lakke of such thynges there taught vnto the godfathers / therin coulde I not agre wyth hym , for they come not to be crystened there them self / and so the lakke of that prechyng there can not hyndre theyr cristendome . And as for the chyld , if neyther they nor the preste nother well vnderstande theyr dewtye nor well byleued in baptysme neyther / ye & though they were turkes , Iewes , or saracens , or that worse were then all thre very starke heretyques : yet so that in the baptysynge they purpose to make the chyld crysten , & therin do as the chyrch doth / all theyr lakke can not make the baptysme lese his frute . And yf that Tyndale knowe not this he is very porely lerned / and yf he know this , and then saye as he sayth , that for lakke of such teachynge at the founte the baptysme there is frutelese , what is he then say you ?

But now is yt good to se somwhat of Tyndales mynde concernynge these twoo thynges , that is to wyt the fayth set on sensyble tokens in the sacrament , and the prechynge of the promyses .

Fyrst for the visyble sygnes , there be twoo thynges to be consydred . Thone that Tyndale beryth vs in hand that the clergye maketh vs byleue that the visible sygnes alone doth all to gether , & therin he saythe false / a nother that hym self byleueth that they do no good at all , and therin he byleueth false .

For the fyrst poynt these be his wordes .

Tyndale .

They make vs beleue that the worke selfe wythoute the promyse saueth vs , whych doctryne they lerned of Aristotle .

More .

In this poynte he playnely bylyeth the clergye , whyche doctryne he lerned of the deuyll . who taketh baptysme but for a sacrament ordeyned of god for mannys saluacyon , by whych god hath promised that he shal be saued except synne after let hym , and wythout whych he shall not be saued , excepte ryght specyall cases , & those be very few neyther able to be playnely proued by scrypture , and yet wyll Tyndale agre them agaynste his maysters rule .

How be yt Tyndale hath here a nother rule and that as false as the tother , by whych as I was aboute to saye he rekeneth the outwarde tokens of the sacrament to be of none effecte , but onely bare tokens of that grace that is wrought wyth the worde , and that the worde of Cristes promyse .

For he sayth that the sacramentis be as yt were a precheour , and do onely preache goddes promyses / and therfore for to mynystre the sacramentes , is ( he sayth ) nothynge ellys but to preache goddes promyses . And for this he alleggeth the wordes of saynte Paule in the fyfte chapyter of his pystle to the Ephesies : Ephe. 5 Criste clensed the congregacyon in the founteyne of water thorow the word . And also the wordes of saynt Peter where he sayth in the fyrste of his fyrste pystle : 1. Petri .1 ye are borne of new , not of mortall seed but of immortall seed , by the word of god whych lyueth and lasted euer . He alleggeth also the worde of saynte Iamys in the fyrste chapyter of his pystle , Iacobi .1 . where he sayth : Of his good wyll bygate god vs wyth the worde of trouthe , that is sayth Tyndale wyth the worde of promyse . He sayth also : Thou seeste that it is not the worke but the promyse that iustyfyeth vs thorow fayth . He sayth also that as the preste purgeth by prechynge of the promyse , so do the sacramentes and none otherwyse / bycause he sayth that the sacramentes be but sygnes and tokens that betoken and preache the promises . And so he meaneth that as the preste prechyng the promyses , doth geue vs a knowlege of them , or putteth vs in mynde of them , and yet he doth but shew vs of the promyses & of grace , & doth not gyue vs any effecte of any promyse or grace , nor we by that preching do not gete no grace but by goddes worke bysyde : so though he minystre the sacraments , yet we do not attayne & gete any grace neyther by the preste , nor by the sacramentes , nor by that worke or dede that is done in mynystrynge or receyuynge the sacramentes , no more than by the prestes prechynge / but onely by the promyse of god thorow fayth to the infoundynge wherof the sacrament doth nothyng worke , nor is no cause therof nor cooperant thereto , nor meane nor instrument therin / but onely a bare sygnyfyer and a shewer thereof . And yet worse then thus : that lykewyse as yf a preste standyng vp in the pulpet to preche , do there stande styll and preche nothyng at all but so come downe agayne and say nothynge , doth vnto the people no profyte at all : so the sacramentes syth they be but bare sygnes as he sayth , and serue of nothyng but to sygnyfye certeyne thynges , he sayth therfore that bycause the mynysters of the sacramentes do not open and declare those sygnyfycacyons to the receyuers of the sacrament , therfore the sacramentes be frutelesse / and men take no more profyte by the receyuynge of them , then by the stondynge of the preste in the pulpet that standeth there and precheth not .

And it it to be consydered that thys is hys opynyon as well of the blessed sacrament of the auter as of the holy baptisme . wherby what mynde he hath of that blessyd sacrament , he leueth lytell doute to them that haue eyther lernyng or wyt .

If thys opynyon of Tyndale were trew that the preest doth in mynystrynge the sacramentes no more but preche the promyses / and in the mynystrynge he purgeth but as he doth by hys prechynge / and when he precheth not the sygnyfycacyons then he purgeth not : then were there wyth the baptysme no grace at all geuen vnto chyldren for the preest precheth not then / & though he dyd we fynde not yet that he sholde suffycyently purge the chylde wyth prechynge . And yet yf baptysynge be nothynge ellys but prechynge as Tyndale sayth / then after that the preest had well preched all the were to be preched and shewed what the token and the sacrament meaneth / he myght as it semeth by Tyndals tale send home the chyld agayne & neuer put water vppon hym . Tyndale wyll haue vs byleue no thynge but playne & euydent scrypture / I wolde he sholde therfore proue hys tale here by playne and euydent scripture / for as for these placys that he layeth proue it no thynge at all .

Ephe. 5 For the wordes of saynt Paule to the Ephesyes , Criste clensed the congregacyon in the fountayne of water thorow the word , is the thynge that all we say to / that is to wyt that by the holy wordes of baptysme comy●ge to the water god clenseth the soule accordynge to the wordes of saynt Austyne accedit verbum ad elementum & fit sacramentum . S. Austinus But Tyndale bycause saynt Paule sayth there / in the fountayne of water thorow the worde , we●eth that he setteth the water but for a sygne / as yf the one wolde say , a man doth in hys body faste , watch , gyue almesse , and praye thorow the deuocyon of the soule , Tyndale wolde then saye that the body were set but for a sygne and in all these thynges doth nothynge at all .

Hys texte also of saynt Peter is nothynge in thys world for hys purpose . For when saint Peter sayth : ye are borne of new , not of mortall seed but of immortall seed● by the worde of god whyche lyueth and lasteth euer : what meaneth he other then that by our sauyour hym selfe whyche is the lyuynge worde of god that lyueth & lasteth euer● we be borne agayn by the sacramentall water & the sacramentall word , whyche bothe he there vnderstandeth , for he there expressely speketh of neyther nother , but of the worde that is goddes sonne .

The wordes of saynt Iamys also , I●●●bi .1 . that god of hys good wyll begate vs wyth the worde of trouth , how proue these wordes that the water of baptysme serueth but for a sygne .

The worde of trouth sayth Tyndale is here vnderstanden the worde of ●ys promyse . How proueth Tyndale that ? by●ause that Crystes promyses be trew , muste it therfore nedys be that saynt Iamys in that place ment the worde of promyse / as though there were no more trew of all that euer Cryste spake but onely of hys promyses . why may not in that place the word of trouth wyth whyche god hath of hys good wyll bygoten vs , be vnderstanden our sauyour Cryst hym selfe / by whom god hath bygoten vs in dede , and whych is the very trouth it selfe as hym selfe wytnesseth of hym selfe , where he sayth : Ego sum via , veritas , & vita , I am the waye , the trouth , and the lyfe . Thus maye ye se that thys texte proueth Tyndales purpose nothynge at all .

But now suppose that the very wordes of saynt Iamys were , that god had bygoten vs wyth the worde of hys promese / what had thys made for the mater ? How had thys proued that the water and the sacramentall wordes were but bare sygnes & tokens ? If saynt Iamys sayde that god had bygoten vs by hys goodnes / do these wordes exclude all the meanys that hys goodnes vsed towarde it ? If god wolde saye to Tyndale : I haue brought that in to thys world which thou doste now corrupte , and I haue made the crystendom whyche thou gooste aboute to dystroye , and I haue bydden the beware of hell in to whyche thou rennest a pace : dyd he therin exclude Tyndalys father and hys mother , and hys sacrament of baptysme and the mynyster therof , and the prechers and ●echers of the tother ? So ye maye playnly se that Tyndales ●extes serue no thynge at all to proue that the sacramentes serue but onely for sygnes .

Thys opynyon hath Tyndale taken of Luther , whyche gyueth to the sacrament nothynge at all / but he sayth that god gyueth all the grace by the fayth alone , and not by the sacramentes any thynge at all . Now the chyrche beleueth & techeth that god hath not so bounden hym selfe to his sacramentes , but that where he gyueth the gyfte of fayth to any that can not come to baptysme , there he of hys power maye and of hys goodnes wyll gyue vnto that man the gyfte of such grace to come to heuyn without baptysme . But where god gyueth grace by the baptysme / there it is harde to set the baptysme at so short , as to saye that it serueth but for a bare sygne / and wythout the sygnyfycacyons preched at the font standeth in no more stede then a precher that precheth not .

Albe it that god maye cure a sore without a medycyne , & do a myracle in a mannys helth , and that for the regarde of the mannys good fayth and hys truste in god : yet yf it please god to hele hym by a plaster though hys fayth be the cause why god dothe it / yet is the plaster a meane in the doynge , and serueth not for a bare sygne .

And surely when our sauyour set thys order therin , that who so were baptysed in water in the name of the father & the son and the holy ghooste he sholde be saued / and that excepte a man were borne agayne as well of the water as of the spyryte , he sholde not entre in to the kyngdome of heuyn : god set it to serue for a more effectuall thyng then for a bare sygne voyd of any frutefull effecte . For thys were yet at the ●ai● wyse no lesse , then yf a lord wolde say to a poore felow : take the here thys badge or thys lyuery gowne of myne / & yf thou take it and were it I wyll take the for myn houshold seruaunt and in myne houshold gyue the meat and drynke & wages / or ellys yf thou were it not , thou shalte not come wythin my dorys . Thys lyuery gowne gyueth hym neyther meat nor money / but yet it is more then a sygne that he shall haue it / for the werynge therof helpeth hym to get it , not of any nature of the lyuery but by hys lordes ordenaunce .

And so lyke wyse though it were trew that the sacramentes dyde nothynge worke in them selfe , nor had no power in them selfe no more of god then of nature to purge & clense the soule : yet were it more then a bare token or sygne of grace , in that it hath by goddys promyse hys owne specyall assystens , whyche at the sacramentes mynystred doth infounde hys grace .

How be it many good vertuouse men hath there ben of olde , that haue had yet a mych hygher estymacyon of the sacramentes then so / and that haue thought that the sacramentes haue not onely god by hys promyse assystente to purge the soule and to infunde hys grace , but also that he hath vsed them therin as effectuall workyng instrumentes in the doynge therof , by reason of a certeyne influens of hys power , wherby he made them mete to worke in to the soule thorow the touch of the body .

And in to thys mynde they were ledde by the wordes of holy scrypture , and partely for the excellence of the sacramentes of the new law in respecte of the sacramentes of the olde law / bytwene whych two kyndes of sacramentes semeth to be as greate dyfference , as bytwene the two kyndes of the lawes them selfe / and that is no lesse then bytwene fygures , ymagys , symylytudes or shadowes , and the very thynges them selfe / as sayth saynt Paule : Omnia in figura contingebant ●●is , Corin. 1● . all thynge vnto them came in fygures .

Then syth the sacramentes of the olde law had god by hys promyse assystent wyth them in remyssyon of synnes , Leuiti. 4.5 . & . 6 as by the playne wordes of many places of scrypture doth appere : it semed to those olde holy vertuouse doctours , that the sacramentes of the new law for the preemynence ouer them , sholde of goddys especyall influens haue some effectuall vertue , force , and power , as an instrument of god in the workynge therof . To whyche mynde they haue ben moued not onely for the cause afore remembred / but also as I sayd before for that the very wordes of holy scrypture semen to lede them to it / when they redde in the actes , A●t●um .8 that by the puttynge of the apostles handes vppon them that were crystened , the holy gooste forthwyth came in to them , and by myracle shewed hym selfe by theyr spekyng in dyuers tonges . And when they redde saynt Paule wrytyng to Tymothee : 1. Timoth. 4 Neglecte not that grace that is in the , whych is gyuen the by prophecye , wyth the puttynge vppon of the handes of the preesthed / and vnto hym also those wordes : 2. Timoth. 1. I warne the that thou resuscytate and ●tyrre vp the grace of god that is in the by the imposycyon or puttynge vppon of my handes : these placys were very playne for theyr mynde , when they here redde that grace was by god infused wyth the receyuyng of the holy order of preesthode , by the outwarde sacrament of puttynge the bysshoppys hande vppon hym .

It semeth also that the wordes of god spoken by the mouth of the prophete Ezechiel souneth to the same / where he sayth : I haue wasshed the wyth water , Ezecl . 16. & I haue clensed thy blood . By whych wordes yt semeth to be sygnyfyed that the outewarde wasshynge of the water of baptysme , sholde be an effectuall instrument of the inwarde wasshynge of the soule . And by the mouth of the same prophete , Eze●● . ● . ●6 in prophecyeng of the sacrament of baptysme our lord sayth also : I shall shede out vppon you clene water , and ye shall be clensed from all your fylthynes . These wordes shewe that the water shall was●●e the fylthe . And what fylthynes meaneth he but the fylthynes of the soule ? and that doth no water wasshe but the water of baptisme . And where to wolde our lord by the mouth of his ꝓphete call it clene water / but for the difference that it hath in makynge clene the soule by influence of goddes gyfte ouer that other waters haue ? for ellys as for elementall clennesse of that water in yt selfe , other water is as clene as yt .

Those holy doctours consydered also the yet more open wordes of the ꝓphete zacharie : Zachar. 14 There shall go forth he sayth quykke lyuely waters oute of Hierusalem , the one halfe of them to the oryentall see , the other halfe to the very vttermost see . These wordes veryly descrybe the holy water of the sacrament of baptysme , the water that welleth oute of holy chyrch whyche strecheth to two sees of synnes , that is to wit both of synne orygynall and of all the actuall synne that the man hath done , all were he neuer so olde ere he were baptysed . And why calleth the prophete this water quykke and lyuely / but for the dyfference betwene it and other waters that are but deede ? in token that the water of baptysme hathe by the secrete sanctyfycacyon of god , a certayne strength of spirytual lyfe infounded in to that corporall element / wherby it is not onely a bare dede token , and sygne of grace , and clensynge of the soule , but also a quycke lyuely workynge medycyne meane and instrument .

By these places of scrypture and dyuerse other / many good holy men of old , all be yt the no man othe●wyse thought nor thynketh , but that the pryncypall worke and the hole workes in the clensyng of the soule and infundyng of grace is god hym selfe , and that he doth yt for the merytes of Crystes passyon as he hath promysed to do , and that vppon our parte is requyred in suche as haue vse & reason at the tyme of baptysme repentaunce of the euyll lyfe passed , with fayth and bylyef of the worde of god , and hope of saluacion wyth loue and charyte towarde god and our neyghbour , and a purpose of workynge of good workes : yet dyuerse god holy doctours haue tought as I say by such placys of scrypture , that god in the workynge of such clensynge of the soule , and infusyon of grace , vseth the sacramentes not as a bare sygne but as an instrument , wyth whyche and by whyche it pleaseth hym to worke them .

And they that thynke otherwyse / that is to wyt they that thynke that the sacramentes be but as yt were the lyuery gowne wherof I gaue you the ensample , and hath no sp●cyall power nor influence gyuen of god , by whych it any thyng may worke in clensyng of the soule : all they haue none other thynge for them selfe as far as I haue redde and could perceyue , but argumentes grounded vppon philosophye and metaphisycall reasons / by the constraynte wherof I wyll not say they be dreuen and compelled , but say that as yt semeth me , they dryue and compell them selfe to fynde gloses to these scriptures , & vnto the wordes of other good holy doctours to .

For as for my parte , I wold not let to deny an hole hepe of those reasons in maters of the sacramentes , whych hang all vppon goddes will and pleasure and his omnipotent power . For all be yt that we se no lykelyhed how that bodely water can worke vpon the spyrytuall substaunce of the soule / yet god can make that fyre which is a bodely substaunce as well as is the water , to worke not vppon soulys onely discharged of theyr bodyes in purgatory , but also vppon the euyll angelles the deuyls whose substaunce is as spirituall as is the soule : I can not greatly se why we shold greatly fere to graunte & agre , that by goddes ordynau●ce the water may be goddes instrument in purgynge and clensynge of the soule .

whyche argument for ought that I perceyue among them is to myne vnderstandyng so symply soyled / that till I here eyther better or perceyue them better : I lyke as yet that argument better then I lyke all theyre solucyons that they make thereto .

For some of them be fayne for theyr solucyon , to graunt almoste that theyr payne in the fyre were but a detaynynge therin by some strenger power then them selfe / and then were the payne but as a prysonement and restraynt of lybertye , if the fyre burne them not . And then why more in fyre then in water , yf they be for the fyre neuer the warmer . And vn the tother syde yf that by the kepynge of them in the fyre the fyre do worke vppon them and burne them , as I thynke the trouth is : then so maye by goddes ordynaunce the water helpe to wasshe and clense the soule .

And surely syth experyence teacheth vs that the soule whych is of yt selfe a spyrytuall substaunce , god hath of his hygh wysedome and power founden the meane so to put it in a bodye and so to knyt yt therto , that not onely by fyre or frosen water putte aboute yt , but also wythoute any outwarde thynge put vnto yt , by the onely boylynge of the distempered humours wythin yt selfe , the soule is in such gryef , pay●e and torment , that it wold be as fayne out of the body as the bodye wold be rydde of it : syth we fynde this thus , I dowte nothynge at all but that god can by mo meanes then men can thynke or imagyne , so bynde the spyrytuall soule to the fyre , that he shall fele the feruour of the fyre as he nowe feleth the hete of his ague here / and yet shall not the fyre and he be made one person as the soule and the body be now . which thynge who so wolde aske me howe maye that be / myght as well aske me how myght the worlde be made when there was nothyng to make yt of , and a thousand madde questyons mo . But to the purpose this I say , that god may by his power make the water in the sacrament an instrument with an efectuall influence of power geuen by god thereto at the tyme to purge the soule / as well as the fyre eyther to purge yt or punyshe yt . In whych thynge syth the scryptures seme to say that he dothe so , & no scrypture sayth the contrarye / and many good holy men haue bene of that mynde / I see not why we shold thynke otherwyse .

when our lord heled Naaman Syrus by his ꝓphete He lyzeus in the water of Iordane / no man dowteth but tha● god dyd the dede . ● . Regum . 5 yet were yt a great boldenes to afferme that the water there dyd worke ●othynge therin at that tyme , and yet had the water no such nature of ytselfe .

No more had also the water of whych yt is wryten in the gospell of saynt Iohn , Iohan. 5 where at the mouynge therof who so nexte were let downe thereto was there cured by the angell of god / and yet is yt well lykely that god gaue an influence of his power at the tyme , by which the water self was made an instrument of that helth .

And lykewyse where the woman was heled by the touch of Crystes garment , Lucae .8 . wherof saynt Luke speketh in the .viii. chapyter : the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe seme to shew some influence gone forth from hym selfe in to his garment , suche as by his myght with the touche of his garment vsed as an instrument therin , was able to gyue helth vnto that good faythfull wom●n .

when our sauyour as is wryten in the .ix. chapyter of saynt Iohn dyd take the dyrt of the grounde , Iohn . 9 and dyd spytte there vppon and made therof a plaster , & layed it vppon the blynde mannys yien and so gaue hym his syghte : I thynke that god gaue an influence of hys power in to that plaster , wherby he cured his yien . yet mighte he haue done it by his onely worde or by hys onely wyll , wythout any suche outwarde thynge layed there vnto . But it pleased hym to let them se that he not onely coude do it hym selfe , but coude also make the very dyrte of the strete able to do suche curys / as not all the plasters in all the surgeons shoppes were able to attayne vnto .

Now yf they wyll saye that it is not lyke in curynge the body and clensynge of the soule : I saye it is lyke , sauynge for the reason by whyche they say that the bodyly water can not worke vppon the vnbodyly soule . And therfore thereto I saye , that by no naturall power nor by no power excepte onely goddys / coude these bodyes that is to wyt those waters , garment , and plaster , haue in suche wyse wrought vppon the bodyes wherein they were workynge instrumentes of these meruelouse cures . And then I saye by hys power maye the bodyly water as well be a workynge instrument vppon the vnbodyed and vnbodyly soule , be it in clensyng , pourgyng , or punysshynge / as vppon the body .

For as for that reason by whyche some doctours reken the mater the more easy in the sacramentes , bycause the out warde sensyble thynges therof worke as they reken vppon the soule , as parte of the holeman by touchynge the body therof / as the fyre touchynge the body payneth the soule & all , all be it I repungne not thereat : yet I nothyng grounde my selfe theron , syth I neuer founde amonge them all one reason yet , wherby me thoughte it proued otherwyse , but the god may make the bodyly corporall water , able to worke vppon the vnbodyed incorporyall soule . whyche yf it maye / syth god hath set the sacramentes as meanys by whiche we come to clensyng of the soule and to saluacyon / all be it that no man denyeth but that the power of god is chyefe , & that he regardeth chrystes passyon and our owne fayth wyth dyuerse other thynges : yet I se not why we sholde take all effecte of workyng from the sacramentes them selfe , and leue them voide of all grace , and call them bare gracelesse tokens . For yf that any man were of the mynde that he thoughte the sacramentes do nothynge to the clensynge of the soule , bycause that all that euer is done is done by the power of god : so myghte he thynke that no medecyne doth any thynge in the cure of any dysease , bycause that all the nature of the medycyne is gyuen vnto it by the power of god to .

How be it in thys mater whyther that the sacramentes haue any influence of power gyuen them by god , whereby they may be workers and instrumentes in the purgynge or clensynge of the soule / or ellys that they be but in such wyse meanys and cause of the grace , as the lyuery gowne wherof I dyd put the ensample is of the seruauntes fyndynge in the lordes housholde / is not the thynge wherin I wyll gretely stykke . But in my mynde the scrypture most serueth for the fyrst opynyon / and good holy doctours and of the eldest haue ben of that opynyon , and nothyng but phylosophicall reasons haue drawen other from that opynyon . And synnys that some other hath fallen to the tother opynyon , whyche gyueth to the sacramentes lesse force and effycace then doth that fyrste opynyon : there are now come these new men , Luther , frere Huskyn , and Hy●hen , and such other lewde felowes , that wolde leue the sacramentes by theyr wyllys n● maner strength at all . And therfore so myche lyke I the better the fyrste waye that most h●ly men helde , and that fertheste goeth from the doctryne of those heretykes , whyche make the sacramentes as they sey to serue onely for prestes and prechers / & then they preche them selfe that the preesthed is no sacrament at all , and turne them all in to mokkes and iestes , comparyng sand with holy salte , and butter smeryng to the anoyntynge wyth the halowed chrysme / & such other folysshe blasphemy .

Now where they saye that all the saluacyon standeth in promyse of god , and nothynge in the sacramentes at all / bycause that they be but the tokens therof : by this reason they wyll wythin a whyle take a way the reuerence from the very promyse to . For of trouth the promyse of god worketh not our saluacyon no more then do the sacramentes , but god worketh our saluacyon hym selfe / and the promyse is the token wherby we knowe he doth so . For yf he had not promysed it / we had not so surely knowen it , nor had not had so greate a cause of good hope thereof / but yet myghte he haue saued vs though he had neuer promysed vs . And now them that he saueth , he saueth not so myche by the force of hys promyse as by reason of the selfe same goodnes that made hym to make the promyse . So that his owne lyberall goodnes worketh our saluacyon , and the promyse gyueth the knowlege of our saluacyon .

Now saye these men allwaye that god saueth vs by hys promyse , as thoughe they were sure that yf he were not surely bounden by his promyse , he wold not now do it at all / and sauynge that his promyse is onys passed hym somewhat as they make it vnware : he wold elles yf it were now to make , take a better auysement ere he bounde hym selfe so farre .

In menne such chaunge and such repentaunce happeth , that where one of his good wyll sometyme byndeth hym selfe to geue / the tother maye thanke the bonde yf euer the promyse be kept . But goddes hygh prouydence so foreseeth what he promysed / that he can neuer forthynk yt . And his inestimable goodnes is so great / that he geueth not bycause he promyseth , but he promyseth bycause he wyll geue / and wolde geue though he neuer promysed as he determyned to geue byfore he promysed / and wold yet promyse yf he had not promysed / not that his promyse sholde be the cause of hys gyfte , but that we shold by his promyse haue knowlege of his gyfte and comfort of the hope .

Now maketh me Ty●dale the sacramentes nothynge but a token of the promyse / and the promyse he maketh the cause of the gyfte : where of trouth as well the promyse as the sacramentes be tokens of the gyfte / and goddes goodnesse is the cause of the gyfte . And god hath from the begynnyng determyn●ed that he wolde after the fall of Adam ordinaryly not geue yt wythoute the sacramentes . But though he determyned also to make a promyse / yet neuer determyned he that he wolde not geue yt wythoute he made a promyse . And so be both the sacramentes and the promyses tokens of the gyfte / and yet semeth the sacrament rather then the promyse a cause of the gyfte . For the sacrament after the instytucyon , semeth a cause of the gyfte , at the leste wyse in some kynde of cause , and the promyse semeth no cause in no kynde neyther synnys nor afore . And thus ye maye se what a wyse processe Tyndale maketh vs .

But wolde god yet that thys were the worst pece of Tyndales techyng concernyng Crystes promyse . But he frameth crystes promyses after hys owne fasshyon . He sayth that we make promyses in sacramentes where cryste made none / but he maketh promyses that Crystes made neuer suche . For Chryste promyseth heuyn yf men labour for it : Tyndale wolde make vs wene we nede no labour at all . Chryste promyseth forgeuenes thorow the sacrament of penauns yf men amende and wyll do penauns : Tyndale of the sacrament putteth two partes awaye , and almost the thyrde to , & promyseth forgyuenes for a very shorte skant repentynge at the fyrst thought by and by / and to do penauns he taketh for idolatrye . Cryst promiseth vs heuyn yf we do good workes wyth our fayth : Tyndale sayth to do good workes wyth intent the rather to come to heuyn shall brynge a man to hell , and lese the reward of fayth . And thus Tyndale whych cryeth out promyse promyse , and wyll haue nothynge taught but Crystes promyse : yet in these thynges and an hundred moo stryueth and fyghteth agaynst goddys promyses , and vtterly goth aboute to destroye them .

Fynally where as Cryste hath made a promyse , one of the grettest , most solempne , most assuredly made , & therto most frutefull & most necessary that euer he made / that is to wyt that he wold be wyth hys chyrch of crysten people all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde , and that he wolde sende also the holy ghoost vnto them that sholde teche them all thynge & lede them in to euery treuth : Tyndale fyrst ( leste he sholde seme to gaynsay thys promyse ) wolde shyfte it from the knowen chyrche and company of all crysten people professynge the name and fayth of Cryste , vnto a secrete company of suche as they call good men and electe / whyche who they be who can tell ? And yet syth there can be no dowte but suche as be or haue ben very electes , haue alwaye ben partys of thys knowen crysten company / and syth they were not false dyssymylers : they haue byleued as they shewed , and they haue shewed that they byleued as we byleue in suche thynges as Tyndale now calleth myssebylefe , for they haue done therin as we do , and alwaye the best haue wryten these thynges that we byleue / and neuer was there any company tyll with in this twenty yere , that byleued as Tindale sayth that he byleueth . And he sayth also that hys bylefe is so necessarye to saluacyō● that the contrary bylefe is damnable / for ellis he wold not of his courtesye crye out so sore vppon the clergye for techynge the contrary . where vppon yf Tyndales lye be trewe / there must then of necessyte folowe that there must be trew also one of these two very playne falsedes / that is to wyt that Cryste hath neuer synnys hys deth tyll holy Tyndales dayes had in thys worlde here any chyrche at all / or ellys that yf Cryste haue had here any chyrche , yet from hys owne deth tyll holy Tyndalys dayes , the holy ghost whom hym selfe sent , neuer taught hys chyrche the treuth . Now then yf cryst had all this whyle no chyrche in erthe / his promyse was clerely broken , by whych he promysed to be with hys chyrche hym selfe all dayes vnto the worldes ende . For how were he wyth hys chyrche here vnto the worldes ende / yf before the worldes ende so many hundred yeres to gether , ●e had here no chyrche at all .

And on the tother syde yf he had here all thys whyle any chyrche / and then the holy ghost haue not taught that chyrche the trewth : then hath Criste broken that promyse , by which he promy●ed that the holy ghoste sholde teche hys chyrch all thynges and leade them in to all trewth . For how had the holy ghoste taught it all thynges yf he haue suffered the deuyll to teche it some thynges . And let Tyndale when he wyll answere thys poynt . Marke well and remembre that we speke here of bylefe and fayth / not of workes and dedes , lest after hys custumable fasshyon lettynge the bylefe go by : he answer vs wyth raylynge vppon mennys maners , and so lede the rea●er more then ●myle fro the mater .

And how hath the holy ghoste ledde the chyrche all thys whyle in to all trewth / yf one holy truth be , that freres when they lyst may wedde nonnes notwithstandyng theyr vowes , and the holy ghost hath almost this fyftene hundred yere togyther , suffered all hys hole chyrche ( neyther good nor bad excepte ) to byleue that breche of such vowes is dedly synne , and suche maner maryage pleyne incestuose lechery , and to dampne Tyndales fayth in that poynt for very false heresye .

And thus good crysten reders here ye playnly se what maner of fashyon Tyndale techeth Crystes promyses . For where as he seueth all at nothynge sauynge onely Crystes promyses made to man : he techeth men agayne to breke theyr promyse made to god / and so bryngeth all hys maters in conclusyon to that poynt , that yf he lyed not as he doth / Cryste had broken hys promyse made to hys chyrch / besyde thys that of Crystes promyses he denyeth many , and them that he graunteth he byleueth shrewedly , and wolde make them serue vs onely for a blynde boldenes of synne .

Of the sacrament of the auter .

For as mych as he seeth that the masse is the speciall thyng in whych the sacrament of the auter is honored , & in which yt is moste frutefull , in so mych as there the very body and bloode of our lorde is not onely receyued by the preste hym selfe and for hym selfe , but is also for his owne synnys and other mennys to , offred vppe to god as an holy hoost , oblacyon , and sacryfycye / representyng the same sacryfyce in whych our sauyour both beyng the preste and the sacryfyce , offred vp hym selfe for the synne of the world vnto his father in heuen , and acceptable sacryfyce vppon his paynfull crosse : therfore doth Tyndall after his maysters doctryne ●este and rayle and make mokkes at the masse , wherof these be his wordes .

Tyndale .

What helpeth yt that the preste when he goeth to masse ●●sgyseth hym selfe wyth a great parte of the passyon of Cryste , and playeth oute the reste vnder sylence wyth sygnes and profers , wyth noddynge , beckynge , and ●owynge , as yt were ●acke a ●a●●s / when nether he hym selfe nether any man else woteth what he meaneth , nor whereof no man can gyue a good reason as he saythe sone after .

More .

Here he mokketh and playeth hym selfe as ye se in mokkynge these holy ceremonyes vsed , as well in th apparell of the preste as in the secretes of that holy sacryfyce . whyche he sayth do no good but mych hurt , and make men superstycyouse / bycause as he sayth there , they haue the more deuocyon therby / & therfore he wold haue them l●●te , as though the deuocyon that is increased by the beholdynge of those holy ceremonyes were superstycyon , bycause they vnderstande them not .

If Tyndale say trew in this / then dyd god by hys owne commaundement make his chosen people of Israel to fall in to superstycyon in stede of deuocyon , wyth the ceremonyes vsed aboute the sacrafyces in the olde lawe , bycause they vnderstode them not .

After this he mengleth hys lyes therwyth , saynge that crysten menne thynke that they haue done habundauntly ynough for god , ye and deserued aboue measure , yf they be present on s in a day at such a mummynge .

More .

what may not such a man be bolde to saye that is not a shamed to lye so shamefully ? for he knoweth that all the readers well know that he lyeth when they rede yt / and yet he is not ashamed to wryt yt . what man wolde be so folysh to thynke that he hath done ynough for god ?

yet layeth he a nother incommodyte that the infydelys wyll mokke vs and abhorre vs , in that they se nothyng but suche apes playe amonge vs , whereof no man can geue a reason .

Lo what an hygh reason hath Tyndale here founde out , that such holy ceremonyes wherof Crystes chyrch hath receyued many , by the blessed apostles them selfe , & from theyr dayes vsed euer hytherto , as apperyth by the wrytyng of holy doctours far aboue a thousand yere a go / we muste now geue ouer , for fere left infideles as Turkes and Saracens wold lerne of Tyndale to mokke vs for them / because we can not tell them a good reason for eche of them . Be ye sure this ys a ryght solemne reason / and Luther in dede maketh a mych lyke , so that ye may se that they haue wayed it well bytwene them , or ellys Tyndale wolde not after so longe a laysour alledge yt agayne so solemnely .

But now wold I wyt of wyse . Tyndale whyther yf men could and dyd gyue a good reason vnto Iewes Turkes & Saracens and Paynyms / as for ensample such causes as Tyndale telleth some for great hydde mysteryes that no man could tell but he , whych he set out late of a good frerys boke called Rationale diuinorum / shewyng what sygnyfyeth the albe , the amys , and stole , and so forth : wold the● all the Iewes , Turkes , Saracens , and other infydelys hold them selfe satisfyed & mokke no more ? yf they so wolde / than were they all mych lesse infydeles than Tyndale is / for he hath sought out such thynges , and yet mokketh styll . How be yt that is lytle meruayle . For in dede he bryngeth all such thynges forthe but for to make mokkes at them .

But then wold I wyt of wyse Tyndale farther , whyther yf all these infydeles that he speketh of , as Iewes , Turkes , and Saracens were present at the masse / and no such ceremonye at all vsed thereat , but onely knelynge , knokkynge on brestes , and holdyng vp of handes at the syght , leuacyon , and receyuynge of that blessed sacrament / and that thereuppon merueylynge on the manner therof , they were tolde the very trouth that the cause of all this reuerent behauour , is bycause that there vnder that forme of brede and wyne is the very blessed body and blood of oure sauyour hym selfe , the same that hang vppon the crosse when he suffred his passyon for our redempcyon : wold those infydeles then holde them selfe all content , and neuer mokke at yt more ? Naye will none of them besyde the blessed sacrament mokke at all the hole mater , both at the incarnacyon , deth , resurreccyon and all ? .

Lo thus ye se good crysten readers , that by Tyndales reason we must caste of clene all our hole fayth / leste such infydelys as hym selfe is , shold make mokkes there at as he doth . what crysten eares can abyde such blasphemouse foly ?

yet wolde some vnwyse man wene peraduenture , that Tyndale dothe for all this not meane any thynge agaynste these holy ceremonyes of the masse / but onely mokketh the preest bycause he speketh not all the secretes of the masse a lowde / and also bycause he teacheth not all the paryshe what all those cerymonyes meane .

Surely there nedeth no man to dowte , but he that can fynd in his herte to make such mokkes vppon the deuoute obseruaunces vsed so many hundred yeres about the masse / hath a lewde bestely mynde agaynste the very sacrament yt selfe .

But yet to th ende that euery man may se yt the more clerely : ye shall perceyue by his owne wordes that accordyng to Luthers bablynge in his boke of Babilonica / Tyndale teacheth playnely that the blessed sacrament is in the masse no sacryfyce , none hoste , nor none oblacyon / by whych abomynable herefye he taketh ●uyte a way the very speciall profet and frute of all the masse . These be his very wordes :

Tyndale .

There is a worde called ●n latyne ●●cerdos , in greke hiere●s , in hebrue coha● / that is a mynyster , an offycer , a sacryfycer , or a preste / as A●●on was a preest and sacryfyced , for the peple , and was a mediatour be●wene god and then / and ●● the englyshe shuld yt haue had some other name then preest . But Antecrist● hath deceyued vs wyth vnknowen and straunge termes , to brynge vs in to confusyon and superstycyous blyndnes . Of that maner is Criste a preest for eu●r , and all we prestes thorow hym / and nede no more of any such preest on erth to be a meane for vs vnto god .

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By these wordes yese , that where as the prestes in the old law offred sacryfyces for the people and that of dyuerse 〈◊〉 des , as appereth in Leuitici and Numeri and other plac●s of holy scrypture / in stede of all whyche sacryfyces Cryste hath in his new law instytuted one onely sacryfyce , his own blessed bodye and blood to be offered vp to his father for his people by the handes of the preest in forme of brede & wy●ne / of whych holy offerynge in the masse nowe , the offerynge of Melchisedech that offred bred and wyne , C●●● . 14 was a solemne figure : Tyndale telleth vs here that bycause Crist is a preste for euer , and that all we be prestes thorow hym man & woman / ye muste vnderstande we nede therfore he saythe no more of any such preste on erth , that sholde be a meane betwene god and the people , to offer vp any sacryfyce to god for the people . For he sayth farther , that Cryste hath 〈◊〉 vs in to the inner temple wythin the veyle and vnto the mercy stole of god , and 〈◊〉 coupled vs vnto god / where we offer euery man for hym selfe the desyres and petycyons of his herte / and do sacryfyce and kyll the lustes and appetytes of his fleshe , wyth prayour , fastynge , and all maner of gol●y lyuynge .

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wyth these gay glytterynge wordes wolde Tyndale so blere our eyen / that he wold make vs to reken our selfe taken in so nere to god and so coupled wyth hym , that euen vppon god almyghtyes mercy stole we offer euery man so suffycyently for hym selfe the desyres and petycyons of his hart , and so suffycyently sacryfyce and kyll the iustes and appetes of his fleshe , wyth prayour , fastynge , and all manner of good lyuynge : that we nede now no preste as meane betwene god and vs , to offer vp for vs to god the holy hoste and sacryfyce of all sacryfyces , the blessed bodye and blood of our holy sauyour Cryste .

This is the goodnesse that he bryngeth all his holy processe to . And where as in other places all is nought among vs , and all is but synne : yet here leste we sholde nede the sacryfyce of the masse , we be all goddes good sonnes , & kyll and sacrifyce full well the lustes and appetytes of our flesh , wyth prayour , fastynge , and all manner of godly lyuynge .

How be it when Tyndale sayth that we offer our desires of our harte at god almyghtyes mercy stole / & that we kyll and sacryfyce the lustes of our fleshe with prayour , fastyng , and all godly lyuynge : he meaneth none of vs peuysshe , popysshe popystes , but the lyuely lyghtsome Lutheranys . For they perde as ye se by Luther hym selfe and hys holy nonne / kylle & sacryfyce theyr flesshely lustes , with prayour , fastynge , and mych godly lyuynge , euery man and woman woteth how .

I meruayle yet in what place of scrypture Tyndale fyndeth / that men sacryfyce theyr synnes . we fynde that men offer sacryfyce for synne and that men kyll synne / and then peraduenture offer them selfe clene depured from synne . But to offer vppe synne in sacryfyce / me semeth it is a very stynkyng sacryfyce , and of suche a scryptured man not very scrypturely spoken . But therfore Tyndale turneth those .ii. wordes out of theyr ryght frame , to iugle and blere our yien wythall . For he sayth not that we kyll and sacryfyce oure flesshely lustes / leste we sholde haue spyed that it were no metely sacryfyce . But he sayth that we sacryfyce and kyll them / as though that in the olde lawe men had ben wont to sacrifyce the bestes fyrst , and burne them vppe hole / or ellys burne parte and eate parte and then kyll them after .

But Tyndale careth not how he set hys wordes , so that he maye make vs to byleue , that we nede no preest to offer vppe dayly the same sacryfyce that our sauyour offred onys , and hath ordayned to be by the prestes perpetually offred in hys chyrche . For thys is hys labour to take out of our bylefe / and thys is Luthers labour , of whom he lerned it in hys booke of Babilonica . And for this cause be they wroth wyth the holy canon of the masse , bycause the sacrament is in the masse called as it is in dede , a sacryfyce , an hooste , & an o●̄rynge .

Thys wolde they haue vs leue of for the onely spyghte that they bere to preesthed / bycause they se that in thys poynt that holy order of preesthed hath an excellent pryuylege , in whyche none angell hath the lyke authoryte .

And all be it that Tyndale telleth vs many tymes as the man is somwhat shamelesse , that we wyll not byleue saynt Hierom , saynt Austyne , saynt Ambrose , saynt Gregory , and the other olde holy doctours of Crystes chyrche : yet knoweth Tyndale that in thys one poynt amonge many other , they be quyte agaynste hym euerychone . And bycause it wolde here make a longe worke to reherse many of theyr wordes : therfore that Tyndale shall not denye but that I therin saye trewth , I shall alledge hym Luther hys owne mayster / whyche in hys booke of Babilonica playnly confesseth the same , and answereth it wyth saynge that the gospell of god is playne agaynste them all / as thoughe that amonge them all , eyther neuer none had redde the gospell of god / or ellys neuer none had vnderstanden it but hym self . And then agaynst them all he construeth that gospell so folysshely / that afore god a man wolde wene almoste that a goslynge had as mych wyt as he . And yet now wolde hys wyse dyscyple Tindale haue vs for his pleasure in hatered of the order of preesthed / byleue that the preest doth at the masse make none offryng of the holy sacryfyce for our synne . wyth whyche heresye he clene taketh awaye the very frute of the masse , in whiche that blessed sacrament is both moost honored of the people , and is also most profytable to the people

But yet shall ye se ferther that as fayre as he couereth hym selfe in hys spekynge of thys holy sacrament in some other places : yet in some he sheweth his affeccyon full well : for these are hys wordes .

Tyndale .

The sacrament of Crystes body after this wyse preche they : ye maye 〈◊〉 pe●●ceyue 〈◊〉 th●● 〈…〉 Tyn●●●● . Thou muste byleue that it is no more brede but the very body of Cryste , flesshe , blood , and bone , euen as he went here on erthe , saue his cote . For that is here yet I wote not in how many places .

Is not here a fayre mokkynge maner in rehersynge of that holy sacrament ? But yet to couer his infydelyte / he maketh here a colour , as though he were angry that they teche no more . But he is angry in dede that they teche so mych / or ellis coude he neuer fynd in his herte to speke so mokkeshly of such a mater as he doth .

For euery man well knoweth that where he maketh after as though they whiche teche the people thys / dyd not teche them also the profyte of the receyuyng nor the promyse of god : he doth vntrewly belye them . For who is there so symply taught , but that he well vnderstandeth that the receyuyng of the holy body of our lord in suche wyse as men are taughe to receyue it / is holsome to the soule and that by goddys ordynaunce ? And therfore is in Tyndale but a shamelesselye , wherof euery man well knoweth the contrarye . wolde god hym self beleued as well of this holy sacrament , as the sympleste lerned preest in a contrey teacheth his paryshe . whych yf he dyd / his herte I dare saye wolde not serue hym so folyshely to ieste therat . For he speketh there of prechynge of ꝓmise , for no other cause but onely to bryng in his worshypfull ieste of our lordis holy body beyng in the sacrament , to say he is there all saue his cote . Of whych holy sacrament he that iesteth so / beleueth of lyklyhed that there is no more of his body there than of his cote . I haue in his boke of obedyence consydered his wordes of this holy sacrament / & I haue aduysed them the better for certayne wordes that I haue herd of hym : & I se not one worde by whych he may be bounden to saye that euer he confessed yt to be the very body and blood of Cryste . How be yt yf he had / yt were not yet wyth that sorte mych the surer . For they maye do as theyr mayster hath , saye the contrarye after / and when they say worse , than tell vs that they haue sene more synnys and lerned better .

How be yt he is in dede comen to that poynt all redy , as ye shall perceyue by his wordes in his boke made agaynste me / wherof I shall reherse you parte anon . And yet we nede not mych more profe , when we se that he mokketh at the masse , and wolde haue no preest at all , nor the sacrament to be taken as a sacryfyce / and now iesteth vppon the doctrine that teacheth vs to byleue that in the sacrament is the blessed bodye and blood of our lorde , to turne yt to a mokke , ye sayth this fole all saue his cote / a worshyppefull ieste in a crysten mannes mouth / that mouth is more mete in dede for sand then holy salt .

What auayseth sayth he to teache folke this , that the very bodye and bloode of our lorde is in that sacrament / the deuyll knoweth that Criste dyed on a frydaye and the Iewes to / and what are they the better . we haue a promyse . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉

why steppeth he from th example of the same sacrament . why saythe he not the deuyll kn●weth this to be trewe , that vnder the forme of brede is Cristes owne bodye , and yet the deuyll is neuer the better . Surely bycause hym selfe beleueth that the deuyll knoweth yt not at all nor god neyther . And for bycause he wold not yet haue vs therin perceyue his minde to the vttermoste : he ioyned the Iewes wyth the deuyll to f●e fro the sacrament to the fryday , where he myght haue seuered them and spoken of both / or ellys wyth the Iewes & the deuyll , he myght haue ioyned hym selfe , and haue bounden all thre in a bundell . For he byleueth lesse then the tone / and is as malycyouse as any of them both .

yet to th entent that ye may perceyue clerely , that he is playne of Luthers heresye / that the sacrament of the auter is very brede styll : ye shall vnderstande that where as I in my dyaloge reherse Luthers heresyes , and amonge other thys heresye that I now speke of , Tyndale in hys answere affyrmeth Luthers heresye for good and trew , sayeng : That that is broken , and that the preste ●ateth wyth his teth / is yt not brede what is yt elles .

And after those wordes he goth forth in iestynge & mokkynge god wote full lyke hym selfe .

And sone after in a nother place he sayth in defense of Luthers heresye , bycause he wold haue folke set lesse therby & haue lesse reuerence therunto : It were a perilouse case yf men and women touched yt , bycause the 〈◊〉 hath not oyled them .

And afterwarde he sayth : At Oxforde aboute the sacrament was no smale question of late dayes , whyther yt were brede or none / some affermyng that the flowre wyth longe lyenge in water was turned in to starch .

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what a cankerd mynde this heretyque hath / there can I trow no man dowte that hereth what folysh gaudes he deuyseth vppon it of his own frantyque hed . For yf euer there were any such folysh fantasye spoken there / yt was by hym selfe & one or twoo wretched felows of his owne secte , syttynge and blasphemynge god vppon theyr ale benche .

But now shall ye yet more playnely se , to what poynt he goth aboute to brynge you .

Tyndale .

It is the sacrament of Crystes bodye and blood , and Cryste calleth yt the new and euerlastynge testament in his blood , and commaundeth that we shuld so do in the remembraunce of hym / that his bodye was broken and his blood shede for our synnes . And Paule commaundeth therby to shew or preache the lordes deth . They say not pray to yt , neyther put any fayth therin . For I maye not beleue in the sacrament , but I muste beleue the sacrament , that yt is a true syg●e , and yt true that is sygnyfyed thereby ( whych is the onely worshyppynge of the sacrament , yf ye geue yt other worshyppe ye playnely dyshonour yt ) as I maye not beleue in Crystes chyrche , but beleue Cristes chyrch , that the doctryne whych they preache of Cryste is true . If ye haue any other doctrine / teache vs a reason and leade vs in syght , and we wyll folowe .

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No man can desyre better knowledge of hym then he sheweth of hym selfe in these wordes . For here he sheweth playnly that though to blere our yies wythall he calleth it the sacrament of Crystes body and blood , and his new and euerlasty●ge testament in hys bloode / and sayth that we be commaunded by saynt Poule therby to preche the lordes dethe : yet he wyl● not in any wyse that men shall praye therto nor put any fayth therin . And it is no dowte but he that hath that mynde , byleueth nothyng at all that it is the very body of Cryste , wherwyth hys holy soule is coupled , and hys almyghty godhed ioyned / from whyche fro the fyrst assumpcyon therof it was neuer seueryd .

And therfore vnto all hys other gaye gloryouse wordes he hath a false glose / by whyche he meaneth that the blessed sacrament is nothynge els but a token & a fygure ordayned for a remembrauns of Cryste , and not the very body and bloode of hym selfe .

It is also to be noted whereuppon he groundeth this holy precepte of hys , that men sholde not praye to the sacrament nor put any fayth therin . He sayth bycause that the scrypture doth not commaunde it / therfore it is dyshonoure to the sacrament to do it . Doth not these wordes alone teche vs suffycyently , to knowe the myscheyfe of that heresye / by whych they say that there is nothyng to be byleued without playn and euydent scrypture / when we se now that Tyndale vppon that doctryne of hys , forbedeth vs to honour the holy sacrament of the autre .

ye may se now that Tyndale vttered not all his false ware at onys . For fyrst he bygan wyth ymages / then wyth relyques , then wyth sayntes , that we maye wurshyppe none of all these . And now at laste he techeth vs that we maye not worshyppe Crystes owne body in the blessed sacrament of the autre , nor put any fayth therin . Put ye no dowte but he wyll saye the same by hys soule within a whyle , & sone after that by hys godhed to / and at the laste by the godhed of the father and the holy ghoste bothe , and vttrely deny all thre .

God is good lorde whyche maketh thys blasphemouse fole speke in the ende of hys blasphemy a few trew wordes , wyth whyche hym selfe destroyeth all hys whole abomynable doctryne . For he confesseth as ye haue herd / that though he maye not byleue in Crystes chyrche , as though the chyrche were hys sauyour : yet he muste byleue Crystes chyrch / that the doctryne which they preche of Cryste is trew . And with these wordes of hys owne , will I strayne hym faste & sure . For I aske no more but these few wordes of his owne , to the confoundyng of all that euer he techeth agaynst our fayth . For now hath he wyth these wordes destroyed th effecte of hys heresye / wherwyth he wolde draw all to an vnknowen chyrche of electes . For syth we muste byleue the doctryne & the prechyng of the chyrche of Cryste , as Tyndale sayth hym selfe , and that can we neuer do but yf we know them whom we byleue / and who be electys we can not knowe : farewell the force of all that heresye by Tyndales owne tale .

And now syth he hath bounden hym selfe to confesse that the chyrche of Cryst is & muste nedys be a chyrche knowen here to men , and none suche can he name but onely the catholyke knowen chyrche of all Crysten nacyons , from whych he hath and doth labour to flyt and fle vnto a darke unknowen chyrche of electes / the strength of whyche heresye hys owne wordes here haue confounded : he must nedys confesse that Crystes chyrche is the chyrche that we be of , and out of whyche hym selfe is downe fallen by vnfaythfulnes in to the depe dongeon of the deuyll . And now syth of hys owne confessyon he must byleue the doctryne of the chyrch of Cryste / and of the same confessyon of hys owne it foloweth that the chyrche of Cryste is thys comon knowen chyrche , that hath from Crystes dayes hytherto contynued / and that it is euydent also that by the doctryne of that chyrche the doctryne of Tyndale concernynge the blessed sacrament is false / for euer hath it ben by that chyrche of Cryste taught that the blessed sacrament shold be worshypped , and fayth to be put therin wherof Tyndale techeth the contrary : it is ineuytably concluded vppon Tyndales owne wordes , that Tindale is agaynste Crystes owne blessed person , a dedly deuel●she heretyke .

Now syth ye playnely perceyue good crysten reders , that thys malycyouse man entendeth to tourne pore symple soulys out of the very fayth / and of the .vii. holy sacramentes wolde take fyue awaye / and the other twayne that he wolde seme to leue , he handeleth yet in such wyse as men may well se that he leueth them as frutelesse as the other / and fynally in effecte beleueth neyther nother : there wyll no good man loke that we sholde now nede to proue these holy sacramentes to be trew , which all crysten peple haue this .xv. C. yere beleued / bycause that now a fonde felow and a folyshe heretyque denyeth them / excepte that any man were so madde to dowte whyther there were any god at all , yf he happed to here any man so madde to say nay .

And surely there was neuer secte of heretyques yet , that there was so great madnes to beleue as these . For of other heretyques that haue bene of olde / euery secte had some one heresye or ellys very few . Now these heretyques come in wyth almoste all that euer all they held and yet mo to . All the other heretyques hadde some pretexte of holynes in theyr lyuyng : these shamelesse heretiques lyue in open shamfull incestuouse lechery and call yt matrymony .

The olde heretyques dyd stykke vppon scrypture when yt was yet in a manner new receyued / and they contended vppon the vnderstandynge at such tyme as there had few crysten wryters expowned the scrypture byfore them , so as they myght the better say to the catolyque chyrch , why may not we perceyue the scrypture as well as you : but these new heretyques be so farre fro shame / that in the vnderstandynge of scrypture , and in the affyrmynge of all theyr heresyes / they wolde be byleued by theyr onely worde , agaynste all the old holy doctours that haue bene synnys the deth of Criste vnto this daye / and that in those roten heresyes to , whych they fynde condemned to the deuyll by the generall counsayles of all crystendome a thousande yere afore theyr dayes / and moost madde of all in denyeng the sacramentes whych they fynde receyued & byleued , vsed & honoured so clerely from the begynnynge / that neuer was there heretyque that durst for very shame so boldely barke agaynst them , tyll that now in these latter dayes the deuyll hath broke his chaynes , and of all extreme abomynacyon hathe set his poysoned barell a broche / from the dreggy draught wherof god kepe euery good crysten man , and such as hath dronken therof geue them grace to vomyte yt out agayne by tyme .

This longe dygressyon haue I made you / to lette you playnly se the sommary purpose and effecte of Tyndales doctryne touchynge the holy sacramentes / whych knowen vnto good menne suffyseth to make theyr hertes abhor●e his dyuelyshe doctryne wythout any ferther argument . And as for them that at the bare herynge therof abhorre yt not / they be surely so sore infected , that excepte the meruelouse mercy of god , neuer shall there eyther reason or authorite make them sauour the trouth .

But nowe that Tyndale hath commended vnto you the hygh spirytuall wysedome of vnfaythfull heretiques / he begynneth on the tother syde to rebuke and reproue the trew fayth of all good faythfull people .

Tyndale .

But the world capty●ateth his wyt , and aboute the law of god maketh hy● wonderfull ymagynacyons / vnto whyche he so faste cleueth , that t●̄n● I●hn̄ Baptistes were not able to dyspute them out of his hed .

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Now that Tyndale hathe done with his owne spyrituall parte , & hath as ye haue herd holyly declared how hygh spyrytuall wysedome they vse in serchynge the very botome of the cause in euery commaundement that god geueth / and accordynge to the thynge whych they take for the cause , so order them selfe eyther kepe the commaundement or breke yt : now commeth he to thoter parte / that is to all that are no heretykes , whom he before called naturall and not borne agayne nor renewed with the spyrtie , all which folke he calleth here the worlde / and sayth that the worlde captyuateth hys wyt , & about the law of god maketh hym wonderfull ymagynacyons / vnto whych he so faste cleaueth that tenne Iohn Baptystes were not able to dyspute them oute of his hed .

Here he meaneth that hym selfe and his felowes spyrytuall heuenly men / be not captyuate vnto the lawe of god , as we pore worldely men of mydle erth be . For they be no ferther bounden to the law , but as the cause of the law sought out by them selfe , leadeth them to and fro / and therfore they be in an euangelycall and in manner angelycall lybertye to do what they lyste / so that they geue the lawe some cause that may serue theyr luste , as they haue geuen to the law and commaundement of vowes / from whych they haue set them self in such a spyrytuall lybertye , that munkes and freres maye lawfully lye wyth nunnes and lyue in lechery , and call yt wedlocke .

And in dede they may call yt wedlocke and they wyll as lollardes dyd of late , that put a pygge in to the water , on good frydaye / and sayd go in pygge and come oute pyke / and so when they had chaunged the name , they toke yt for fyshe and ete yt . And so may these holy new spyrytuall men , when munkes and freres wedde nunnes , they may call yt wedloke & they will . But as the pore plough man sayd vnto the tauerner that gaue hym water in stede of wyne , god thank you mayster wyner for your good wyne , but in good fayth sauynge for the worshypfull name of wyne iche had as l●ue a dronken water : surely so may we well saye to these new holy spyrytuall maryed munkes and frerys / sauynge for the worshypfull name of wedloke , yt were as good they lyued in lecherye , as in suche byched bychery .

But we sely sowles of the worlde here , be captyuate and bounde he sayth and not in suche an heuynly lybertye / but make our selfe wonderfull ymagynacyons aboute the lawe of god , whyche thynge mych I meruayle of . For the worlde is not often wonte to muse mych vppon the lawes of god , nor greatly to studye vppon them , but let them go by well and easely & thynke lytell on them / nor nede not Iohn Baptyste to dyspute out of theyr hedys any wonderfull ymagynacyons that they haue studyed aboute the law of god .

But Mary on the other syde , these new spyrytuall men , haue wyth theyr new lybertye made them selfe wonderfull ymagynacyons to which they cleaue so faste , that .xv. Iohn Baptystes can not dyspute them out of theyr hedys . For they haue to the greate wonder of the worlde made them an ymagynacyon , that frerys maye lyue in lecherye wyth nunnes , and neuer nede do penaunce neyther for that nor for any synne ellys , but repente and do so styll and byleue that all is well , & do no penaunce nor take no payne for any synne at all .

Now euery man well woteth that saynt Iohn the Baptyste dyd dyspute agaynst these ymagynacyons of theyrs , bothe wyth hys lyuynge and hys techynge . For agaynste theyr lechery his lyuyng dysputed wyth chastyte / & agaynst theyr heresye of penaunce , he dysputed wyth prechynge penaunce . For he bad them , not euery boye go forth and take hym selfe for an apostle and go preche , but he cryed vppon them to do penaunce / and not onely bad them repente and do penaunce , but also bad them yf they wolde auoyde hell and the wrath that ellys was to come , Matth. 3. they shulde do worthy frutes of penaunce . And bycause that they sholde not wene that it was but a worde of offyce , and that it suffysed to byleue well in goddys promyse , and so go theyr way & thynke them selfe saue : he shewed them in hym selfe and hys owne lyuynge , for theyr instytucyon not for the deseruyng of his owne synne , a forme and fashyon of a repentaunt synner in what wyse he sholde do penaunce . And therfore he lyued solytary , sauynge that hys vertues caused hym to be vysyted . He lyued in holy vowed chastyte and neuer ●edded woman in hys dayes , nor neuer wolde haue done though he had lyued twyes as longe as Luther● He lyued in pore and paynfull apparell . Lucae . 1. He lyued in watche and prayours , in fastyng and forberynge meate . He dranke no wyne , but was cont●● wyth water . Thys maner of penaunce doynge dyd saynt Iohn Baptyste teche and dyspute , contrary to the fa●se ymagynacyons agaynst penaunce , and wonderfull deuyses of lewde lecherous lyuynge that these new spyrytuall men haue in theyr fantasye framed / whyche neyther saynt Iohn Baptiste nor such tenne saynt Iohn Baptystes , nor our sauyour Cryste hym selfe can dyspute out of theyr hedys .

Tyndale .

He byleueth that he loueth god bycause he is redy to kyll a Turke for his sa●e that byleueth better in god then he / whom god also commaundeth vs to ●●ue ●nd to leaue nothynge vnsoughte to wynne hym vnto the knowlege ●f the ●routhe , though wyth the losse of our lyues .

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Here Tyndale foloweth hys mayster Luther that wold haue all crysten men suffer the Turkes and fyghte not with them . How be it I vnderstonde by Tyndale in hys boke after , that Luther hath eaten vp his worde agayne afterward for fere , when he saw his countrye prepare them selfe agaynst the Turkes . But now Tyndale that is out of suche fere / is as it semeth dysposed to maynteyne and set forth hys maysters formar errour agayne . For he layeth it to the charge of the catholycall chyrche , as a chyefe and pryncypall fawte that we take it as token of loue to god yf a man haue a mynde for goddes sake to go fyghte agaynst the Turkes . But as madly as he mokketh it / a good token is it of loue to god for all that . For he that is for goddes sake content in the defence of other folke hys innocent crysten brethern agaynst the infidelys the enemyes of god and them , to put his owne lyfe in payne and parell of deth : we maye be bolde wyth Tyndales lycence whyle we haue Luthers leue all redy to warraunt that it is a token of good and ordynate loue to god , and for god to hys neyghbour .

For though we sholde loue infydelys to make them faythfull and be glad to suffer for them / yf our suffrauns wolde brynge them to the fayth , yet are we not bounden to loue them ●boue the householde folke of Cryste , and famylyars of our owne crysten fayth / and namely so farre , that whyle they come , not to lerne the crysten fayth but to kyll the crysten men , a prynce that hath the rule of vs sholde suffer them to ●yll on and sto●de styll by and preche .

I 〈◊〉 ●ot therfore but how holyly so euer it pleaseth father Tin●●le here preche in fauour of the Turkes / a prince may assemble hys hoost , and of good zele with grete thanke of god , go agaynst them and kyll them aswell and better to , then Moyses kylled the Egypcian that foughte wyth the Hebrew .

And therfore we shall not I truste greatly nede to fere the great worde that Tyndale in the Turkes fauour speketh , agaynst those that wyll go and fyght agaynst them / where he sayth that the Turke byleueth better in god then suche a crysten man . wherin yf Tyndale sayde trew as god be thanked he lyeth : how byleueth then Tyndale hym selfe in god , whych ( as his charytable bokes well declare ) wold be well content that heretyques and infydeles , shold wyth sedycyon or open warre kyll vp the clergye of the catholycall chyrch , and the great parte of such good people bysyde , as wolde be aduersaryes to theyr pestyferouse heresyes .

Tyndale .

He supposeth that he loueth his neyghbour as mych as he is bounde , yf he be not actually angrye wyth hym / whom yet he wyll not helpe frely wyth an halfpenny , but for auauntage or vayne glorye or for a worldly purpose . If any man haue displeased hym , he kepeth his malyce in and wyll not cha●e hym self aboute yt , tyll he se an occasyon to auenge yt craftely , and thynketh that well in●ugh . And the rulers of the worlde he obeyth thynketh he , when he flatereth them , and byndeth them wyth gyftes and corrupteth the offycers with rewardes , and begyleth the law wyth cauteles and sotyltyes . And because the loue of god and his neyghbour , whych is the spyryte and the lyffe of all lawes , and wherfore all lawes ar made , is not writen in his herte : therfore in all inferiour lawes and in all worldly ordynaunces , is he betell blynde .

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All this gere is but a fardell full of lyes / and that woteth Tyndale hym selfe well inough . For all be yt that there be mo than inough that in the catholycall chyrch of Cryste that vse to commytte such synnes : yet vse they not to thynke that they do well , and fulfyll the law of god in doynge / but they both byleue and confesse the contrarye , and to theyr confessour knowlege yt as yt is for synne .

For though men in the catholyque chyrch do synne / yet to take yt for no synne , but for holynes & vertue / this is neyther the doctryne nor manner & gy●e of the catholyque chyrch of Cryste . But this is in very dede the belye● or at the le●te wyse the gyse and custome of Tyndales chyrch & Luthers and frere Huskens . For they haue the loue of god and theyr neyghbour , the spyryte and lyfe of all lawes so well and wysely wryten in theyr hartes / that they can not be but feruently taken in theyr lewde lecherouse loue / nor be not in inferiour lawes and worldly ordynaunces so betyll blynded , but that a frere can fynde the way to a nunnes bed and it be at mydnyght , and after in the open day abyde thereby , and auowe the breche of theyr vowe boldely for very well done and holyly / and when he thus doeth , begyleth not the lawes wyth cawtels and subtyltees , but boldely breketh them vp lyke a stronge man , and bereth it owt bygly wyth shamelesse deuelysshe heresye .

Tyndale .

And yf he be commaunded to absteyne from wyne , that wyll he obserue vnt● the deth to / as charterhouse munkes had leuer dye then eate fleshe . And as for the sobernes and chastysynge of the members wyll he not loke for / but wyll powre in ale and beare of the strongeste wythout measure , and heate them with spyces and so forth .

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As for the munkes of the charterhouse , wolde god we were no ferther from very vertuouse deuocyon , then those good men be from vnlawfull superstycyon / amonge whom god be thanked we se many lyue to very greate age , and neuer herde I yet that any dyed for lacke of eatynge flesshe / & yet herde● I neuer that any of them haue eaten any , sauyng some suche as haue comen from theyr cloysters in to Luthers chyrche / as Otho dyd in Almayne , whyche ronne out of the charter house and lefte fysshe and fell to flesshe all togyder , and toke a wyfe for sobrenesse and chastysynge of his monkely membres as Tyndale speketh .

Tyndale .

And the holy daye wyll he kepe so strayte , that yf he mete a flee in hys bedde he dare not kyll her / and not ones regarde whe●fore the holy day was ordeyne● to seke for goddes worde / and so forth in all lawes .

Tyndale I thynke hath not knowen many kepe the holy day so strayte / that wolde feare to kyll a flee as it pleaseth hym to ieste . But yet● a● I leuer that men ●old kepe it so strayt as he speketh / thei● kepe it so losely as they do . But they that kepe i●●o losely / be neyth●r afe●d I warr●●t you to kyll a fle nor to do ●●rs neyther . And who so euer wold kepe it so strayt , as 〈…〉 of a●●e in hys bed : wolde kepe it bett●r then do the 〈◊〉 of Luthers c●●●che , that let not on the holy 〈◊〉 to 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 . For as for herynge of goddys worde , in many places in Almayne among theyr holy sectys , where they were in the begynnyng wonderfull hote vppon sermons : they be now blessed by god waxen colde inough .

Fyrst in many places they sange the seruyce in theyr mother tonge , men and women and all / and that was a prety sporte for them for a whyle . But after a lytell vse therof , the pleasure of the neweltye passed , and they set somwhat lesse therby then by a thre mannes songe . They chaunged also the masse / and sone after that many cast it vp cle●e .

Then was all theyr luste layed vppon prechynge , specyally bycause euery man myghte preche that wolde / sayenge that they folowed the counsayle of saynt Paule / whyle one wolde byd the precher holde hys peace a●● let hym speke a nother whyle , 1. Ceri . 14 affyrmynge that the spyry●● 〈◊〉 reucled hym the right sense , and that the precher lyed . 〈◊〉 ●●s turned they sermons in brawlynges , so that somtyme t●e people parted them from poyntynge theyr prechynges wyth syste●● But now as I here saye that maner is well amended / th●●●an suffer one to preche as longe as it please hym , and no man ones interrupte hym / for they be there waxe● women and all so cunnynge , that scantly come any to here hym . And thus doeth Tyndales chyrche and Luthers syt at home in theyr stewys in honour of theyr holy daye .

Tyndale .

And in ceremonyes and sacramentes there be c●pt yuateth his wyt and vnderstandyng● to obey holy chyrch , wythout askynge what they meane or desyrynge to knowe / but onely careth for the kepynge , and loketh euer wyth a payre of narow eyes and wyth all his spestacles vppon theym leste ought be lefte oute .

More .

The ceremonyes and sacramentes Tyndale maketh his mokkynge stokke / but let hym beware by tyme lest god mokke hym agayne .

Better is it good 〈◊〉 reader to do the thynge that Tyndale here reproueth / that is to wyt a 〈…〉 hys wytte and vnderstandynge and ob●● 〈…〉 in the ceremonyes and sacra●●●●●● , and 〈…〉 well wythoute ferther serche : then to do as 〈…〉 done , that with hys curyouse serche hath s● 〈…〉 pryed vppon them , wyth betle bro●es and his bryt●● spectacles of pryde and malice , that the deuyll hath stry●en hym starke 〈◊〉 and set hym in a corner wyth a chayne and a clogge , & made hym hys ape to syt there and serue hym and to make hym sporte , with mokkynge and mowynge and pottynge the sacramentes , whyche yet the deuyll dredyth hym selfe & dare not come anere them .

Tyndale .

For yf the preste sholde saye mas●e , baptyze , or here confessyon wythoute a stole aboute his necke / he wolde thynke all were marred , and doute whyther he had power to consecrate / and thynke that the vertue of the masse were l●ste and that chylde not well baptysed or not baptyzed at all / and that his absolucyon were not worth a myte .

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Thys is another ferdell full of lyes , and that he woteth well inough . For yf the preste lefte of hys stole / folke wolde then saye he dyd lewdely as they myght well saye in dede . But Tyndale knoweth full well that folke do not reken the sacrament hurted therby . For he knoweth well that chyldren be somtyme crystened of the mydwyfes hande / and the people knoweth well that she vseth no stole . And thus euery body well perceyueth how shameles Tyndale is in these lyes .

Tyndale .

He hadde leuer that the byshopes shold wagge two fyngers ouer hym / then that another man shold saye god saue hym and so forth .

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Blessynge of bysshopes Tyndale iesteth vpon in mo places then one . And for as mych as he knoweth well that all crysten people haue and euer haue had a good faythfull byleue in blessynge , both where a man or woman blesse them selfe , and also where as any that hath authoryte ouer them gyuen by god to blesse them , whyche is a kynde of prayour and inuocacyon of goddes grace vppon the partye so blessed wyth the sygne of the crosse / as the naturall father or the godfather blesseth the chylde , or the curate his paryshen , or the bysshope his diocesa●●e : such thynges Tyndale taketh for tryfels , and laugeth such blessynge and crossynge to skorne .

For in his boke of obedyence , the laynge of the bysshops hande vppon the preste in geuynge the sacrament of holy orders , he resembleth to the layeng of a mannes hande vppon a boyes h●d when he calleth hym good sonne . And the blessynge as he calleth yt here the waggynge of two fyngers / so he calleth yt there the waggynge of the hande in the ayre .

How be yt we nede not mych to meruayle though Tyndale and Luther and frere Huskyn and theyr felowes , sette lytle by the sygne of the crosse made by a mannes hande in the ayre / syth we se that they set so lytle by an ymage of the crucyfyx , and also by Crystes holy crosse yt selfe / wherof Luther wryteth that yf he had all the peaces , he wolde caste them all there as neuer sonne shold shyne vppon them . But all crysten men syth Crystes deth hytherwarde / hath set mych by that kynde of blessynge , in whych the sygne of the crosse is made vppon a man eyther by hym selfe or by a nother . And not a few storyes are there that testyfye great thynges done in the vertue of that sygne / not onely amonge good crysten men , but also sometyme amonge euyll men and the very infydeles them selfe .

And though that I entende not to prolonge this worke wyth wrytynge of storyes● yet commeth there one to my mynde so mete for the mater , and wryten by so great authoryte , that I cane not let yt passe .

Grego . Nazi . Saynt Gregory Nazianzene the great famouse olde doctour , wrytynge in his seconde oracyon made agaynste the great emperour infydele commenly called Iulianus apostata , wryteth that when that man was fallen from the fayth of cryste vnto paganysme and gentylyte / geuynge hym self therewyth not onely to the persecucyon of crysten men , but also to the folowynge of euery kynde of superstycyouse foly : he toke with hym on a tyme certayne necromācyers , and went in to a caue to coniure vp spyrites , to enquyre of them certayne thynges wherof he was very curyouse to knowe . And when he was in the pyt amonge them with theyr coniuracyons , there appered many terryble syghtes , so far forth that all be yt wyth the truste of his coniuracyons he bare yt oute a whyle , yet at the laste the terrour and feare so sore encreased , that he was fayne for the surest refuge to blesse him selfe wyth the sygne of the crosse , whych he so pursued and hated . At whyche onely sygne so made wyth the waggynge ( as Tyndale calleth yt ) of his hande in the ayre , as euyll an hande as yt was : yet were all the deuyls so sore afrayed , that all theyr ferefull illusyons fayled & vanyshed quyte away .

Lo what a force and strength hathe that fasshyon of blessyng that Tyndale setteth a● so lyght● wherin many a man dayly fyndeth great profyte , in au●ydynge of temtacions of our goostly enimye the deuyll , and in manye a soden fere of the fende .

And I lytle doute but as Tyndale foloweth Iulianus apostata in fallynge from the ryght fayth : so wold he at a nede folowe hym also in blessynge to . For as lytle as Tyndale setteth by blessynge now : yet yf he myghte ones mete the deuyll in the darke , he wolde I warraunte you crosse and blesse a pace . And I beseche our lorde to gyue hym grace so to blesse hym self by tyme , that he mete not the deuyll in eternall derkenes , where who so myshape to mete hym , can haue no grace to crosse and to blesse hym selfe / but shall in stede of crossynge and blessynge , fall all to cursynge and desperate sorowe and furyouse blasphemynge wythout comforte and wythoute ende .

Tyndale .

Wherfore beloued reader in as mych as the holy gooste rebuketh the worlde for lacke of iudgement / and in as mych also as theyr ignoraunce is wythoute excuse / before whose faces inough is set to iudge by , yf they wolde open theyr yies to se , and not captyuate theyr vnderstandynge to beleue lyes / and in as mych ●s the spyrytuall iudgeth all thynge euen the very botome of goddes secretes , that is to say the causes of the thynges whych god commaundeth : how mych more ought we to iudge our holy fathers secretes , and not to be as an oxe or an asse wythout vnderstandynge .

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It appereth well that the holy goost accordynge to the wordes of our sauyour at his laste souper , whyche wordes Tyndale wold falsely wreste a wrye / dyd rebuke the Iewes and the gentyles for lacke of iudgement , and that he taught the chyrch of Cryste the true iudgement / by whych euer synnys Crystes dayes by the iudgement of holy sayntes and all good crysten people bysyde , such thynges as now Luther & Tyndale and fxere Huskyn do teache , haue ben alway iudged for heresyes . And this is open afore euery mannes yies / excepte we wold wyllyngly captyuate our vnderstandynge to byleue Luthers lyes● And therfore those that folow them of theyr ignoraunce / haue none excuse when they se agaynst the hole consent of crystendome so many hundred yeres contynewed , foure our fyue fond frerys runne oute of relygyon and lyuynge in lechery , take vppon them selfe to preche and saye to the people of them selfe , we be the spyrytuales , we serche the botome of goddes secretes , we serch the causes of goddes commaundement , we vnderstande the scrypture in his ryght sen●e / and all that haue ben called holy doctours & interpreters byfore our dayes , were eyther false or folys , and haue eyther of euyll wyll or of ignoraunce brought all crysten nacyons oute of the ryght fayth / tyll now that god hath of hys hygh goodnes sent vs & our wyues to preche fayth , and teche heresye , and shew lechery / to torne the worlde to grace .

Now he that wolde in the declaracyon and vnderstandynge of the scrypture of Cryste and hys apostels , byleue suche a few flesshly blynde apostatas agaynst so many holy blessyd doctours and sayntes : what excuse coude hys ignorans haue afore god ? were not he a very oxe & an asse wyth out wyt or vnderstandyng ?

Tyndale .

Iudge therfore crysten reader , whyther the pope wyth his be the chyrche .

when Tyndale speketh of the pope wyth hys / here vseth he a lytell sophystrye . For he leueth vs in dowte what he meaneth by these wordes , the pope wyth hys . If he meane the pope wyth hys cardynals / then speketh he lytell to the purpose . For I neuer called nor no man ellys , the pope and the cardynals the hole catholyke chyrche . But yf he meane by the pope and hys , the pope and all the crysten reames and countrees that haue not by scysmes and heresyes departed and seuered them selfe from the corps of crystendome : he that then iudgeth the pope and hys to be the chyrche of cryste , iudgeth as it is in dede .

Now yf Tyndale brynge in questyon whyther the pope be of all those crysten countrees the chyefe spyrytuall hed vnder god and generall vycare of cryste : thys questyon wyll not helpe hym . For yf there eyther yet be , or any tyme hath ben , that eyther the Grekes or any other parte of trewe crystendome dyd not recognyse the pope for theyr chyefe spyrytuall gouernour vnder god : yet alwaye those that were lernyd or good men amonge them , and the hole people wyth them , in the necessarye artycles were of the same fayth , and confyrmed them selfe to the see of Rome , in such thynges as amonge them bygan to be disputable / as well appereth not onely by saynte Chrysostome and other olde holy docto●●s of the Grekes , but also by the generall counsayles , in which the Grekes in matters of dowte and questyon , fynally confermed them selfe to the Latyns and to the see apostolyke .

And for conclusyon bothe the Latyn chyrch & the Greke chyrche and pretour Iohnns chyrche to , and euery chyrche that bare the name of any good crystendome / ye and euery chyrche also of any honest heretykes to , and the chyrche of Panymes and Turkes to , and the chyrche of Saracyns to ( syth Tyndale wyll haue them all called chyrches ) and fynally the chyrche of all mankynde synnes the erth was well inhabyted , as many as euer haue knowen so mych as the name of god : hath euer hytherto dampned the chyrche of Luther and Tyndale & frere Huskyn , that care not to breke theyr promyse made to god , and contrary to all honestye make mokkes of theyr vowes / and voyde of shame auow theyr fylthy lechery for honeste wedlocke and lawfull matrymonye .

Tyndale .

Iudge whyther theyr author yte be aboue the scrypture , whether all that they teache wythoute scrypture be equall wyth the scripture , whyther they haue erred and not onely whyther they can .

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Iudge here good reader whyther that Tyndale playe the parte of an honest man , when the power & authoryte whiche the chyrche ascrybeth vnto god and hys holy spyryte / Tyndale wolde make you byleue that they do take and ascrybe it vnto them selfe .

For no man sayth that any man is aboue the worde of god / but we saye boldely that hys worde vnwryten is egall and as stronge as hys worde wryten / and that he is aswell to be byleued wythout wrytynge as wyth wrytynge / & that hym selfe and hys holy spyryte , vnderstondeth hys owne wrytynge better then all the creatures of the hole worlde . And then we say also that god by the mouth of our sauyour hath promysed that hymselfe wyth hys holy spyryte shall euer be assystent with hys ●hyrch / & that he shall alwaye instructe hys chyrche and lede it in to euery trouth . Matth. 28. Iohn . 16 And we say that he kepeth , and ●uer hath kepte , and euer shall kepe that promyse . And therfore we say that he teacheth hys chyrch all trewth / I meane all trewth necessary as hym self meant for theyr saluacyon , that is to wytte all suche thynge as he wyll vppon payne of damnacyon haue them bounden to byleue . I say also that vppon thys it muste nedys folow , that all be it our lord doeth suffer his chyrche to erre in the knowledge of a ●●●te or dede done among men : yet wyll he neuer suffer yt to erre and be deceyued in the knowledge of hys lawe , to whych he wyll haue it bounden , and in the tyme in whyche he wyll haue it bounden therto . And therfore wyll he neuer suffer hys chyrche to take , repute , & iudge a thynge for synfull and damnable , that is of trouthe good & pleasynge to god . For then sholde he therby cause hys chyrche to leue good vertuose thynges vndone them selfe , and also to forebede it other folke as thynges vycyouse and dyspleasaunt to god / and then were hys promyse broken , syth that the holy goost had not then tawght them the trouthe necessary , but had suffred them to be ledde in to dampuable vntrowth .

Then saye I ferder that yt consequently foloweth also , that god shall mych lesse suffer his chyrche to take for good and pleasynge to god the thynge that is very nought and odyouse vnto god and damnable to yt selfe . For then shold his chyrche by such errour not onely leue the good vndone , but also do the euyll , and not know whych way to mende it . And of these thynges I saye that yt foloweth necessaryly , that though the chyrch be not aboue the scripture and holy wryt : yet yt is so taught by the spyryte of god and his holy secrete in warde worde vnwrytten , that yt can not be dampnably deceyued in the vnderstandynge of his holy scrypture wryten . And theruppon yet farther foloweth , that all such as so conster the scrypture that they wolde make the scrypture seme to be contrarye to the fayth of Cristes chyrch : do damnably conster yt contrary to the teachynge of god and his holy spiryte . whyche by his owne promyse dothe alwaye teache his chyrche , and alwaye ledeth yt and alway shall lede yt , in to euery necessary trouth / and that vnto th ende of the worlde accordynge to the wordes of our sauyour Cryste hym selfe .

Of these poyntes Tyndale denyeth vs thre . One is that any thynge is certaynly to be byleued , excepte onely the scripture , and yet that muste be as Luther sayth euydent open and playne / of whych the contrary hath ben so often proued vnto hym , so euydent , open , and playne , that if Tyndale were not euydent , open , and playne shamelesse , his herte wold neuer serue hym for very shame to speke any more of that poynt . The t●ther poynte is , that he denyeth the catholyke knowen chyrch to be the chyrch of Cryste , and putteth yt in question whych is the chyrch / and fynally putteth for the chyrche of Criste here militaunt in erth the onely secret vnknowen folke that are predestynate . The Thyrde is that he putteth also in questyon , whyther the chyrche maye fall in to dampnable errour . And thereto he sayth that the chyrche of electes doth erre , but yet it doth not erre . And for asmych as these thynges be the chyefe thynges wherof hys boke treateth , lyke wyse as they that haue wyt and lernynge do all redy fynde hys handelyng of these maters full of malyce & very voyde of trewth : so I trust when we come hereafter to the places , to make ryght meane lerned folke and meane wytted to perceyue that all hys hygh inuencyon that he wolde haue seme so sothe , is in very dede a very madde mannys dreme .

Tyndale .

And agaynste the myste of theyr sophystr●ye take the ensamples that are paste in the olde testament , and autentyke st●ryes , and the present practyse whych thou seest before thyne yies .

we be well content that these thynges trye the myste of bothe partyes / so that Tyndale take wyth hym one thynge or twayne more , which I meruayle wherfore he now leueth oute , sauynge that he seeth well that they wyll clerely dyssypate and dyscusse the myste that he fayne wolde walke in . For ellys why leueth he clene out the new testament now . we must praye hym that we may take in that to .

And for asmych as we do on bothe the sydes agre vppon the texte of scrypture , and that the questyon mych lyeth whyther Tyndale and hys felowes vnderstond it ryght or ellys the hole chyrche of all crysten nacyons : we shall praye hym to be content that we may laye forth in the behalfe the mynde of the olde holy doctours and sayntes , whych wrote of these maters so many hund●ed y●●es ere euer thys busynes began , and wrote not for the pleasure of eyther other partye . And them wyll we the rather allege , bycause Tyndale aswell in hys boke of obedyence , as in dyuers places of thys boke is not ashamed to say● that we wyll not byleue the olde holy doctours , but that they ●o and be of the bylefe that those holy fathers were / and as I say he is not ashamed to wryte this , ye and that very often , when he woteth well that amonge them all he can not fynde one that euer byleued other , but that it was a shamefull abomynable sy●e a monke to mary a 〈◊〉 , whyche thynge hereafter in thys boke Tyndale so folyshly 〈◊〉 , that sauynge for pytye to se any man so madde , one that ●●ye sore sycke coude not forbere to lawghe at it .

Tyndale .

Iudge whyther yt be possible that any good sholde come oute of theyr domme ceremonyes and sacramentes in to thy soule . Iudge theyr penounce , pysgrymages , pardones , purgatorye , praynge to postes , domme blessynges , domme absolucyons , theyr domme paterynge and halowynge , theyr domme straunge holy gestures , wyth all theyr domme disgysynges , theyr satisfaccyons and iustefyenge . And because thou syndest them false in so many thynges / truste them in nothynge , but i●dge them in all thinges .

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Iudge good crysten reader whyther yt be possyble that he be any better then a beast / oute of whose brutyshe bestely mouth , commeth such a fylthye fome of blasphemyes agaynst crystes holy ceremonyes and blessed sacramentes , sent in to his chyrche out of his owne blessed bloody syde . And for bycause ye fynde this felowe so frantike and so false in the ray raylynge and iestynge agaynste the sacramentes of Cryste : ye may well iudge that who so can delyte or be content with his blasphemouse rybauldy , hath great cause in hym self to fere that his crysten fayth begynneth to fayle and faynte .

Tyndale .

Marke at the laste the practyse of our fleshely spirytualtye , and theyr wayes by whyche they haue walked aboue .viij. ho●dred yeres / how they stablyshe theyr lyes fyrst wyth falsyfyenge the scrypture , then thorow corruptyng with theyr ryches wherof they haue infynyte treasure in story , and laste of all with the swerde .

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ye mary marke I praye you . For this is mych to be marketh lo , that Tyndale can not bere the flesshelynes of oure spyrytualtye , bycause the flesshelynes of theyr chyrch is spyrytuall . For the flesshely wedded harlotes of theyr chyrche be theyr chyef holy spyrytuall fathers , and holy spyrytuall mothers , monkes , freres , and nunnes . And bycause theyr holy chyrch is but new bygonne / Tyndale wolde we shold wene , that this .viii. hundred yere and more Criste hath had no chyrch in the worlde at all . For so longe sayth Tyndale all hath be nought / by the reason that all this whyle the clergye hath falsyfyed the scrypture , and hyred men wyth gyftes , and compelled them wyth the swer●e to byleue them / & so all this .viii. hundred yeres sayth Tyndale by these meanes all the crysten nacyons haue in ●tede of true fayth byleued false lyes , and so haue ben out of the fayth & all nought .

If Tyndale dyd not lye now , as blyssed be god he doth / here had ben a grete gappe in crystendome thys .xv. C. yere . And where had Crystes promyse ben then all thys whyle ? with his electes ? Nay yf this chyrch haue had all this while false sacramentes / Cryste hath had none electes all thys whyle . For they haue vsed what so euer Tyndale saye , the same sacramentes that theyr neyghbours dyd .

I wolde also that he had tolde vs how mych more then xv . C. yeres the chyrche hath had false sacramentes / lest that that he calleth now more , he shall hereafter call yet mych more . For therto shall he be faine to fall , or els to call these .viii. C. bakke agayne , and confesse the sacramentes true / or fynally ( whyche he is most lykely to do ) bable on styll agaynst all reason agaynst all good men and agaynst all scrypture / and so that he be talkynge neuer care what , whereof , nor how . For I am sure that in the sacramentes and in the knowlege of the chyrche , hys malycyouse folye is reproued by the olde holy doctours aboue hys .viii. C. yere almoste as many mo , and ouer that by playne scrypture to .

Tyndale .

Haue they not compelled the emperours of the erth and the great s●rdes and bye offycers , to be obedyent vnto them , to dispute for them / and to be theyre tormentours / and the samsumyms them selfes do but ymagen myschyef and inspyre them .

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Here is all the great anger that greueth this good man / that eyther lorde , kynge , or emperour medleth any thynge for the mayntenaunce of the fayth , or set to theyr handes to the repressynge of heresyes .

But yf Tyndale fynde thys for a fawte / he must go farre aboue hys .viii. C. yere . For it is farre aboue a thousande synnys that as euyll lordes , prynces , and emperours , haue holpen and mayntened heretykes / so lyke wyse good lordes , prynces , & emperours haue set to theyr handes to subdewe them . And theyr maynteners haue vanysshed awaye wyth them , and theyr amenders and punysshers god hath mayntened and favoured / and good godly men haue called vppon prynces for theyr● ayde and assystence in suche case , and at theyr instaunce and pursuyt haue prynces and emperours bothe punysshed them , & made many good lawes agaynste them .

Tyndale .

Marke whether yt were euer trewer then now . The scrybes , pharyseys , Py●late , Herode , Cayphas , and Anna / are gathered to gether agaynste god and Criste , but yet I truste in vayne / and that he that brake the counsell of Achitophell , shall scatter theyrs

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Marke now good crysten reader when Tyndale hath told vs that the ryght fayth is heresye and heresye ryght fayth / and when he weneth that he hath made men so wyse , that we wolde at his worde take whyte for blacke and black for whyte , and god for the deuyll , and the deuyll for god : then when he weneth that he hath made men so blynde , he byddeth loke and marke that all emperours , kynges , prynces , lordes and prelates , and euery kynde of crysten people that any thynge do or saye agaynst heretyques / all they be Pylates , Herodes , Cayphas , and Annas , and are gathered agaynste Cryste sayth Tyndale , that is to wytte in dede agaynst heretyques that labour both wyth false heresyes to destroy the true fayth of Cryste , and also wyth theyr traytorouse settynge forth of sedycyons to rayse rebellyons as they dyd in Almayne , and therby destroye Crystes good crysten people .

For surely good reader though men may haue fayth and yet lacke charyte , as saynt Paule sayth , and saynt Iamis to , 1. Cori. 13 Iacobi .2 . euery one of whyche two is worthy more fayth and credens , then fyften hundred thousand Tyndales that telleth vs the contrarye / but though a man maye as I saye haue fayth and lacke charyte : yet yf he lacke fayth , he may well haue loue , but he can not haue no charyte .

And therfore syth Tyndale is thus runne out of the ryght fayth / neuer truste his fals loue lakkyng charite . For surely to wynne his conclusyon , and brynge in his heresyes , and to get therof the vayne glorye to be taken for an apostle : he wolde se seuen cytees burne & warme hym selfe by the fyre .

And euen in this place he maketh a manner of mocyon therof , shewyng hym self to haue some trust to worke wonders at length . For he maketh as though the princes that wold represse heresyes were as Absolon with his army & achytophell therin , that preserue kynge Dauid / as though frere Luther & his wyfe , wyth his fond felowes & theyr lemmans , were lyke to kynge Dauid and his hoste . And then hath Tyndale a truste that some Chusye that is some chyeftayn of Luthers counsayle , whych he meaneth as yt semeth shal be hym self / shall by his hygh wisedome make as though he were a faithfull frende and begyle all the company , and so scater them and make them to be taken and slayne , as Absolon was and his folke . But lyke wyse as Tyndales hole storye serueth here all agaynste his purpose , bycause that here the trueth doth of good mynde labour to put downe falshed / an Tyndale wyth his mayster & his fonde feleshyp wyth theyr fayned fayre holy speche lyke absolon wyth his fayre here , enforce them selfe to brynge in false heresyes and destroy the true fayth : why Tyndale sholde be lyke to Chusy that can I nothynge se , sauynge onely for one thynge , that for policye Chusy made a lye , and therin Tyndale ouer matcheth hym far , for he sayth neuer trew .

Tyndale .

Marke whyther yt be not true in the hyest degre , that for the synne of the people hypocrytes shall raygne ouer them . What shewes , what faces , and contrarye pretenses are made / and all to stablysh them in theyr thefte , falshed , and damnable lyes / and to gather them to gether for to contryue sotyltye , to oppresse the trueth , and to stoppe the lyght , and to kepe all styll in darkenes .

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Tyndale is a great marker / there is nothynge with hym now but marke , marke , marke . It is pytye that the man were not made a marker of chases in some tenys playe . For in good fayth he sholde be therin mych better occupyed than he is in this / when he sytteth and marketh all other mennis fautes and leueth his owne vnmarked / whych euery other man marketh well inough .

He byddeth the people marke that theyr prynces are hypocrytes in the hyghest degre / and so he teacheth theyr subiectes to haue them in good opynyon and reuerens . But I am glad as helpe me god on the tother syde , that the holy spyrytuall hedes of Tyndales heresyes , as frere Luther & frere Huskyn , and all the hole pakke of the pryncypall fathers of all theyr frantyque sectes , haue lefte of a pece of theyr hypocrysye , and by theyr fylthy weddynge shewed them selfe playne open rybaudes .

Tyndale .

Wherfore yt is tyme to a wake and se euery man wyth his owne eyes and to iudge , yf we wyll not be iudged of Cryste when he cometh to iudge . And remember that he whych is warned hath none excuse , yf he take no hede . Here wyth fare well in the lorde Jesu Cryste , whose spyryte be thy gyde and doctryne thy lygth to iudge wyth all . Amen .

Tyndale neuer spake better then he doth euyn here . For of trouth good crysten reader it is hygh tyme to awake and loke euery man wyth hys owne eyes / and that tyme was neuer so conuenyent as now . For in all other heretykes before thys tyme / euery man was not able to perceyue them with hys owne eyes . Heresyes were comenly sumwhat subtyle and hadde apparent textes in scrypture , that falsely taken semed to make for them . And then had theyr lyuynge such a pretence of honesty and clennesse / that these thynges so blered the vnlerned peoples eyes , that they were not able to iudge these men and theyr maters euery man hym selfe wyth hys owne eyes / but they folowed the iudgement of wyser and better and better lerned / and by theyr teachynge and good holy doctryne , they sawe and perceyued the tother fayned and false .

But mary now god hath ( lawd and thanke be to hym ) brought these felowes and theyr heresyes in a nother case . For he hath suffred them of hys hygh goodnes to shewe them selfe at laste , & to falle in to such open bestely fawtes , frerys & nunnes crepyng to bedde to gyther , and then to preche & teche theyr shameles lechery boldely about for god & laufull matrymony , that they haue therby now set out theyr gere so syghtely , that euery man maye well & playnly se suche open rybawdry wyth hys owne eyes , and well and easely iudge the thynge for synne and bestely bychery , and the defence therof for a shamefull shameles heresye , and the prechers therof for more then monstruose heretykes . And therfore of thys be Tyndales wordes well verefyed / that euery man maye and must awake , and se wyth hys owne eyes thys abomynable bychery of these bolde bestely prechers , that laye frerys and nonnys abedde togyder and call them man and wyfe . This must euery man iudge for abomynable heres●e / yf we wyll not be iudged of Cryste when he cometh to iudge .

And therfore when Tyndale closeth vp hys preface with a solempne threte / byddynge men to remembre now that he whych is warned hath none excuse yf he take none hede : he sayth as trewe as the gospell but all agaynst hym selfe . For thys open heresye of frerys fylthy matrymony gyueth vs so playne and open warnynge of theyr worldly flesshly deuylysshe spyryte , so playne agaynste all holy scrypture and all good honest men : that we neuer coude haue excuse afore god , yf we wolde gyue suche prechers so bolde in suche rybawdry , eyther fayth or credence or fauorable herynge : namely syth there was neuer in all crystendome syth the fayth fyrst began any holy doctour , nor doctour good or bad before Luthers dayes that any thynge hath wryten / but he hath abhorred and detested it to the deuyll of hell , that euer any person eyther man or woman , that hath vowed them selfe monke , frere , or nunne / sholde afterward ronne out of theyr relygyon , caste theyr vowe at theyr bakke , and fall to fleshe and wedde .

And therfore good crysten reders , syth holy scrypture hath warned you of suche techers as Tyndale is that techeth suche bestely weddyng wyth contempt of theyr holy vowys made before to god / and syth that all holy men that haue wryten vppon scrypture haue gyuen vs warnyng that it is playnly prohybyted , as well by the trew sense of scrypture as by the playne open wordes / and all good honest people of crystendome thys .xv. hundreth yere haue had such bestely weddyng in grete abomynacyon / and now ye se that all the captaynes of these pestylent heresyes whiche Tyndale now techeth you , haue gyuen you warnynge them selfe by theyr owne dedes in theyr named wedlocke theyr very synfull lechery , that they them selfe be suche as all this .xv. C. yere before , the scrypture hath reproued and all the worlde hath wondred on / and syth ye se Tyndale now teche and allowe theyr lechery and auowe it solempnely for god and laufull matrymony : I nothynge fere your iudgement in this mater . For I make me bolde in our lorde , that ye be so wyse in the wisedome of god and so fastened in his fayth , that when ye here an hyghe holy worde come out of suche a mouth as prayseth munkes maryages and mokketh Crystes sacramentes , and then precheth lyke a player in a fonde enterlude / & playeth somtyme the frere , sometyme the fox , sometyme the fole , and somtyme the oute ryght rybawde : ye wyll not be so vnwyse to wene that he were an holy man and therfore herken to hym / but take hym such as ye se he is , and let the deuyls dysour go . Delyte not in his deuelyshe doctryne , that ye se your selfe is nought , what so euer he set therewyth to make yt seme solemne : but cleue ye fast to the fayth of Criste which Tyndale goth aboute to destroy / and byleue the olde fathers that ye se be sayntes in heuen . For as Tyndales interpretacyon of scrypture and the vices byelded theruppon , is the very brode waye to lede men to hell : so is those holy sayntes exposycyons with the vertues that they taught and shewed , the very strayt path that ledeth folke to heuen . In whyche our lord for his paynfull passyon gyue vs all grace so to walke / that we come to gether to that place , where we may fynde our charyte not chaunged but increaced & perfayted , our hope turned in to hauynge and possessyon of blesse , and our fayth conuerted & chaunged in to clere and lyghtsom knolege / of whych fayth Tyndale so preacheth vs the name , that who so byleue hym well , is lyke to lese all the frute

¶ Thus endeth the fyrste boke .

¶ The seconde boke whych confuteth the defence of Tyndale for his translacyon of the new testament

An answere vnto the fyrst chapyter of Tyndales boke , why he translateth this worde chyrche in to this worde congregacion .

IN the begynnynge of my dialoge I shewed that Tyndales translacyon of the new testament was well worthy to be burned / bycause it well shewed in yt selfe that he had of an euyll mynde translated yt in such manner of wyse , as yt myght serue hym for a pryncypall instrument , towarde the settynge forth of all such heresyes as he had lerned of Luther , and entended to sende ouer hyther and sprede a brode wythin this realme / the trouth of whych my sayeng Tyndale and his felowes haue in such open fasshyon testyfyed and declared them selfe , that I nede for my selfe , in that poynte to vse no farther defence .

For euery man well seeth that there was neuer englyshe boke of heresye sent hyther synnys ( as there hath ben many , some partycularly agaynst the blessed sacrament of the auter , as was the deuelyshe dialoge of the father and the sonne , and the blasphemouse boke of the beryeng of the masse , wherof our lorde be thanke the maker is gracyously tourned agayne to god / and some were agaynste purgatory , & some agaynst almost all to gether that good is in Cristes chyrch / as are the bokes of Tyndale hym selfe , his wykked mammona , his obedyence , and dyuerse other ) in all these euer more one pece of theyr complaynte hathe ben the burnynge of Tyndales testament . For surely fyrst his false translacyon wyth theyr farther false construccion / they thought sholde be the basse and the tenour wheruppon they wold synge the trouble wyth mych false descant . And therfore very hote they take yt , that the goodnesse of the kynges grace wyth the lordes of his honorable counsayle and the clergye of the realme , haue burned vp theyr false prykked bookes .

So was yt now that amonge other tokens of Tyndales euyll entent in his translacyon / I shewed as for ensamble that he chaunged comenly this worde chyrche in to this worde congregacyon , and this worde preste , into this worde senyour , and cheryte in to loue , and grace in to fauour , confessyon in to knowledge , and penaunce in to repentaunce / with many wordes mo whych he chaungeth and vseth dayly , as in turnynge idoles in to ymages , and anoyntyng in to smerynge , consecratynge in to charmyng , sacramentes in to ceremonyes , and the ceremonyes in to wychecrafte , and yet many mo .

Now shewed I there the causes why Tyndale dyd euyll in translatynge the scrypture in to our tonge wyth suche maner chaunges / and shewed also the thynges that myghte well make euery man perceyue that he ment therein the settyng forth of som heresies , as appereth in my sayd dialoge , whych thynges yf I sholde here agayne reherse and repete , and in lyke wyse all other thynges agaynst which Tyndale doth obiecte : it were to longe a wurke , and as mych as to plante and set in to thys boke myne hole dyaloge agayne● wherfore in all suche thynges I muste nedys remytte the reader vnto the dyaloge selfe .

Now cometh Tyndale and for answere therof , and to dysproue all that I laye agaynst hym in the translatynge of dyuers of these wordes : sheweth that the latyn texte and the greke maye be hys excuse and defence / for as much as the wordes in the laten texte & the greke , do as he sayth sygnyfye suche thynges as he hath expressed in hys englysshe translacyon , by those englysshe wordes that I fynd the faute in . But fyrst to what purpose serueth all hys defence ? when he hath synnys hym selfe , proued by hys owne other bookes , that he is an heretyke / and that hys heresyes be suche , as it muste nedys make it clere , that though a nother man translatynge the testament and beynge good & faythfull , myghte haue vsed happely those chaunges amonge , wythout euyll meanyng or any suspicyon therof : yet he syth those chaungeꝭ so serued for hys heresyes , muste nedys be , not suspected , but manyfestley dedected and perceyued to haue vsed them beynge suche so many and so often , not of any chaunce or good intent , but of very playne purpose to gyue hys heresyes in the earys of vnlerned men , some coloure of profe in the texte of the new testament . And so myghte I now passe ouer .vi. or .vii. of the fyrst chapyters of his booke , as thynges that serue hym of ryght noughte .

But yet to the entent ye maye the better perceyue how wysely the man defendeth the mater , in suche wyse as he sheweth bothe lakke of lernyng , and more lakke of wytte , & moste lakke of grace : he doeth at the last confesse hym selfe that he made the chaunges for the settynge forth of hys heresyes / whyche was the poynt that I layed to hys charge , as the very thynge for whyche hys translacyon was very well worthy to be burned .

Now let vs fyrst consyder how he defendeth hys chaunge of thys worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon .

Fyrste to enduce the mater as though he went aboute to make euery thynge very open and playne : he telleth vs a longe tale of lytell weyghte , that thys worde chyrche hath dyuers sygnyfycacyons . And then he maketh as though he wolde telle how many / wherin when he hath all done , he leueth out one of the very chyefe . For he telleth vs that a chyrch sygnifyeth a place or a howse where crysten men were wont to resorte in olde tyme to here the word of god / and he sayth not to praye but to lerne how and what to pray .

Then he sayth it hath a seconde sygnyfycacyon , but that is he sayth but mysse taken and abused by whyche it sygnyfyeth the clergye / whom it pleaseth to hym in hys raylynge maner to call a multytude of shauen , shorne , and oyled / in mokkage and reprefe not so mych of the prestes , as of the holy order of presthode .

A thyrde sygnyfycacyon he sayth it hath / by whych it betokeneth a congregacyon , a multytude , or a company gathered to gyther in one , as a man may call the chyrche of London / meanyng not the spyrytualtye onely but the hole body of the cytye of all kyndes , condycyons , and degrees . And in thys thyrde sygnyfycacyon he sayth that though it be lytell knowen amonge the comon people now a dayes : yet in this sygnyfycacyon is he sayth the chyrch of god or Cryst taken in the scrypture for the hole multytude that receyue the name of Cryste to byleue in hym . And for the profe of this he layeth many places of saynt Paule . Fynally yet he remembreth hym selfe at laste , and addeth vnto this as it were a note & sayth .

Tyndale .

Not wythstandynge yet yt is some tyme taken generally , for all that embrace the name of Criste though theyr faythes be nought , or though they haue no fayth at all . And sometymes yt is taken specyally for the electe onely / in whose hartes god hath wryten his law wyth his holy spyryte , and geuen them a felynge fayth of the mercy that is in Cryste Iesu our lorde .

More .

Lo now ye haue herd how many maner of wise Tyndale teacheth vs that this word chyrch is taken . In whych yet he hath lefte oute one sygnyfycacyone or twayen that this worde playnely sygnyfyeth . One is that this worde chyrch besyde all the sygnyfycacyons that Tyndale hath here shewed vs : doth syginfye that parte of the chyrch that in synodis & counsayles do represent the whole chyrch . As when we saye that there is a law made by the chyrch that heretikes shall not be sufferd to preach / lyke wise as a parliament representeth the hole reame , & is by the comen speche so called to / as when we say that the realme hath made a law that heretikes shal be burned .

The chyrch also sygnifyeth sometyme a mych lesse nomber that is to wyt / the onely rulers or hedes of the chyrche . as where we be commaunded to complayne to the chyrch / yt is not ment to all the whole towne nor to all the clergy therof , of , but to rulers and gouernours . Syth Tyndale hath taken vppon hym to shew vs here his hygh doctryne , how many manner of wyse this worde chyrch is taken : yt bylonged rather vnto hym to haue taken in these sygnifycacions , then some of them that he hath taken as ye shall se anon

But fyrst I meruaile me mych that Tyndall hath eyther clene lefte out or ellys put in so darkely , that he wold not haue yt perceyued that sygnyfycacyon of this worde chyrch , that is one of the pryncypall sygnyfycacyons therof , and wherupon the greteste wayght of all our mater dependeth . And that is that sygnifycacyon , by whych● the chyrch sygnyfyeth not as Tyndale taketh yt in his thyrde sygnyfycacyon , for all a multitude gathered to gether in one , of all kyndes , condycyons , and degrees of people / but of such onely people as be crysten people , and them not in one cytye onely , but that hole nomber of euery cytye , towne , and village thorow out all the hole world : this sygnifycacyon Tyndale leueth out clene , bycause yt toucheth moste the mater .

For as for that he saith in his fore remembred note : he semeth but to set a specifycacyon of his thyrde sygnifycacion , as though he wolde meane yt for the hole nomber of cyteseyns , or ellys for the onely nomber of the electys wyth in some one cytye , as he there putteth London for his example . And yf he wold there name in his note the hole catholyque chyrch : I meruyle why he sayth that yt is called so sometyme / as though that sygnifycacyon were very rare and selde , where as of trouth there is of the chyrch no sygnifycacyon neyther more great nor more comen , then that by whych yt is ment and taken for the catholyque chyrch and vnyuersall .

How be yt of trouth Tyndale handeleth his thyrde sygnyfycacyon very secundely , and fareth as one that wolde fayne walke in the darke . For the places of scrypture seme to speke of onely crysten people in this place and that . But his descrypcyon of the chyrch in that sygnifycacyon goeth far otherwyse . For when he sayth that yt sygnifyeth not onely the clergye but the hole congregacyon , multitude , or company gathered in to one / as a man wold saye the chyrch of London , meanynge not the spyrytualty onely but the hole body of the cytye , and all that parteyne vnto the towne generally of all kyndes , condycyons , and degrees : of this sygnyfycacyon surely few folke haue herd . For though he name a crysten cytye for a sample : yet may there be some cytyes and haue bene , and yet be some such in some other places / that of the cyteseyns and of the hole bodye of the cytye , and of such as pertayne vnto the towne generally / not onely be there crysten prestes and crysten laye people / but open caste oute heretykes also , ye and peraduenture Iewes , Turkes , and Saracens to , that be not crystened and all . And in some cytyes few crysten people and the remanaunt infydeles / and suche were the cytyes to whome the apostle wrote . And then I am sure when saynt Paule spake of the chyrch of the Corynthyes or of the Ephesyans : he ment not in thys Tyndales thyrde sygnyfycacyon after his descrypcyon , all the hole bodye of the cytye , and all such as perteyned therto generally / but the crysten people onely .

Nor now also yf Tyndale wolde speke of the chyrche of London , where all the hole towne is crysten people : there wolde no man vnderstande therby th● hole body of the cyte , but the clergye onely / nor no man Tyndale excepte in spekynge wolde so meane . But this darkenes vseth Tyndale / bycause he wolde haue it seme that thys worde chyrche , which in the englysshe tonge hath euer had a good sygnyfycacyon & an holy in mennys hertes : sholde seme to haue somtyme the contrary . Out of whyche darkenes I shall drawe Tyndale anone I truste / and accordynge to my poetry wherin he mokketh me , pull vp cerberouse in to the lyght .

But now let vs fyrste consyder a lytell hys fyrst sygnyfycyon , where he sayth , yt sygnyfyeth a place wherunto crysten people were wonte in the olde tyme to resort at tymes conuenyent , for to here the worde of doctryne , the lawe of god , and the fayth of our sauyour Cryste , and how and what to pray , and whense to aske power and strength to lyue godly .

why sayth Tyndale here in the olde tyme / for all this we do in the new tyme to , how so euer Tyndale lyste to lye .

Then goeth he ferther and lyeth on lustely , sayenge that of Crystes promyses nor of hys mercye we knowe no thyng at all / as though no man had here herd euer any thyng spoken , that mankynde is redemed by Crystes passyon , & that he hath ordayned his holy sacramentes , and promysed men grace that wyth fayth and deuocyon receyue them . Is not thys man shameles so boldely to bere vs all in hande , that we neuer here worde of suche thynges as euery boy better byleueth then he ?

For euery chylde that is of competent age / hath herde that god gyueth by hys holy ordynaunce ( whych euer includeth hys promyse ) grace wyth all his .vii. sacramentes / where as Tyndale of seuen taketh it a way fro fyue , and from almost one and an halfe of the tother twayne to .

Euery boy byleueth , and byleueth trew / that god hath promysed rewarde to good workes . And Tyndale wyll not byleue the promyse at all / but denyeth it playnely , as playnly as god sayth it hym self in many places of the very gospell .

But then on the tother syde Tyndale telleth vs , that god hath promysed alwaye to euery man the blysse of heuen for onely fayth alone . And here euery boy byleueth and woteth well he lyeth .

Now towchynge the mercy of our lorde / who can speke of Crystes passyon and speke nothyng of hys mercy ? This man is to madde to talke wyth . Goddys mercy is so greate that no man can speke inoughe thereof . But the worlde waxeth such now a dayes / y● as it is nede to pray for mercy , so were it nede to preche of goddys iustyce , & put the people in mynde of hys wrathe and indygnacyon lykely to fall vppon vs , yf we gyue eare to suche dedely do●●ryne as Tyndale techeth / and I pray god of hys greate mercy to gyue that man a better mynde .

yet goeth he ferther and sayth , that of the lawe of god we thynke as dyd the Turkes and the olde Hethen people / that it is a thynge whyche euery man may do of our owne power .

what careth Tyndale what he saye / that careth not to wryte thys , wherein euery mannes earys that wolde hym well , glowe for very shame that here hym . where herde he euer any man saye , that any man may fulfyll the law of god of hys owne power . Mary thys we saye and saye trowth , the man hath suche power gyuen of god that he maye worke wyth goddes grace in the kepynge of the law . But this can not Tyndale bere / for theyr heresye is , that man towarde the kepyng of goddys precepte , hath no fre wyll at all / and now dyssymylynge hys owne heresye he dedely byleyth vs .

Now of prayour he sayth , we thynhe that no man maye praye but at chyrche / and that it is nothynge ellys but to saye a pater noster to a post / and that the obseruaunces and ceremonyes of the chyrche are vayne thynges of our owne ymagynacyon , neyther nedefull to the tamynge of the f●esshe , nor profytable to our neyghbour , neyther honour vnto god .

Those lyes come in by lumpes lo. I dare saye he neuer herde in hys lyfe man nor woman saye , that no man maye praye but at chyrche .

As trew is it also that men saye theyr pater noster to the poste / by whych name it pleaseth hym of hys reuerent crysten mynde to call the ymages of holy fayntes and oure blyssed lady , and the fygure of Crystes crosse , the booke of hys bytter passyon .

Though we reuerence these in honour of the thynges whyche they represent / and in the remembrauns of Cryste do crepe to the crosse and kysse it and say a pater noster at it : yet saye we not the pater noster to it but to god / and that woteth Tyndale full well , but that he lysteth to rayle .

As for that he sayeth of the seruyce , ceremonyes , and obseruaunces of the chyrche , whych he calleth here vayne ymagynacyons , howlynge , buzsynge , and cryenge out lyke halowynges of the foxes or baytynge of berys , & thus he sayth it is now / but of olde tyme he sayth that the officers appoynted there vnto , preched the pure word of god onely , and prayed in a tonge that euery man vnderstode .

As for prechynge of the pure word of god : I muste wyt of Tyndale whyther he meane the worde wryten or vnwryten or bothe . If he say they preched the worde of god bothe wryten and vnwryten and onely that : then I saye so do we now to . Peraduenture he wyll say that the precheours now lay thereto the ●ide holy doctours : I saye that therein they lay but goddes worde / for they laye them for the better vnderstandynge of goddes worde wryten , and for the better knowlege of goddes worde vnwryten . For we be very sure that yt is his worde when we se that all the holy doctours that spent theyr lyfe in the studye of his worde , and in the kepynge of his worde , and the prechynge of his worde : do testyfye from age to age by theyr holy wrytynge , that those wordes vnwryten which the chyrch beleueth were and be his wordes , as well and as veryly as those that be wryten in any parte of scrypture .

Then yf Tyndale wyll say that our preacheours preche Aristotle , philosophers , and poetes : thereto I say that they sometyme speke of philosophers in thynges of nature or of morall vertues . And yf this new apostle now saynte Tyndale take this thyng for so great an heyghnouse cryme : them is he surely mych more apostolycall then was Crystes olde apostle Poule . For he letted not in his epystle to the Romanes to alledge and alowe the philosophers connyng , though he dysproued and dyspraysed the foly of theyr fall & wrechednes of theyr lyuynge . Titi. 1 And in his epistle to Titus he toke yt for no synne to alledge the poetes versys / but in the disprayse of them of Crete for vsyng of Tyndales fasshyon in lyenge , and also in geuynge the worlde warnyng to beware of such as Tyndale is / whose euyll wordes and sermons do corrupte and marre mennys good maners as his doth , where he wolde make menne wene that good maners were nothynge worth . And thus yf Tyndale graunt the tone parte / that is to say that of olde tyme they preched both the worde of god wryten and vnwryten : then he wynneth nothynge / for euen so do they in the new tyme to .

Now yf he wyll not saye they preched both of olde tyme / but that of olde tyme they preched onely the tone , that is to wyt the worde of god wryten : then must we wytte of Tyndale whych he calleth the olde tyme . For this I wote well & so dothe Tyndale to , that fyrste of all , Cryste our sauyour hym selfe preched more then his worde wryten , and promysed also wythoute wrytynge , and was byleued then wythout wrytynge , that he wolde sende the holy goost that shold teache his chyrch all trewth wythout wrytyng / & Cryst full trewly fulfylled his promyse without wryting / and yet will not Tyndale now byleue hym wythout wrytynge / and after Cristes deth dyd his apostles preache mych more of goddes worde than was writen . And therfore yf Tyndale grownd hys argument vppon the olde tyme , and say that they preched onely goddes worde wryten : I haue dreuen hym onwarde one steppe downe / for I haue shewed hym here the oldest tyme and the best tyme of Crystendome , in whyche he can neuer wreste out but that he shall confesse that all the crysten prechours , that is to wyt all the euangelystes and all the apostles of Cryste , and Cryste hym selfe also / besyde the scrypture preched goddes word vnwryten as longe as euer they lyued . For I truste that Tyndale as madde as he is , is not yet so madde / as to thynke that after that some of the apostles had wryten eyther gospels or pystles , that then they alleged theyr owne wrytynges for theyr authoryte or theyr owne felowes eyther / as though theyr owne wordes & theyr owne wrytynge were not all of one credence .

But now yf Tyndale be not content to stande to that olde tyme / and wyll saye that he spake of olde tyme but not of so ●lde : then ●yth he compareth the olde tyme wyth thys tyme that is now , we must aske hym whyche tyme is that whych he taketh for the olde tyme in respecte of this newe tyme now . we call an olde man ye wote well at fourscore yere , and at an hundred yere very olde . wyll Tyndale stande to the tyme ? wyll he stande at two hundred , iii. hundred , iiii , v , vi , vii , viii ? Nay surely he wyll none of all those hundredes . For he sayth in hys preface that all thys eyghte hundred yere and aboue / the prechours haue ben false , and haue falsyfyed the scrypture . Now semeth me that eyghte hundred yere is in respect of now a metely old tyme . And syth he sayth that by all this old tyme they haue not preched goddys worde well : I wolde knowe whyche is that olde tyme in whyche they preched goddys worde well , and the worde onely wryten , wythout any prechynge of any worde of god vnwryten , and toke for vayne and fa●se all that euer were called goddys worde , but yf they founde it wryten . Let Tyndale no● tell vs that olde tyme . For this must he tell vs or els he tak●th a fowle fall .

Now wyll he make many shy●●es / and ●● the last he shall be fayne to fall bothe into hys owne poe●●y , and also in to hys grammer agayne / and come forth wyth hys .iii. degrees of compacyson , olde , elder , and eldest . And syth neyther the oldest 〈◊〉 of Cryst and hys apostels a●ay● serue hym , bycause the 〈…〉 besyde scryp●t●●e the ●●orde of god 〈◊〉 t●n / nor 〈…〉 ty●● of eygh●● 〈◊〉 y●res nowe lāste passed , bycause they preched as Tyndale sayth dyuerse sacramentes , ceremonyes , and promyses as the wordes of god vnwryten in whych he sayth they preched false / but he wyll take an elder tyme then thys , and not so olde as that , that is to wyt the tyme next after the apostels dayes / and he wyll say that all the wordes of god were then all redy wryten by the euangelystes and the apostels / so that there was none of goddys wordes lefte vnwryten / and therfore after theyr dayes by a certeyne tyme the trewe prechers preched purely the bare worde of god wryten in holy scrypture : well nowe be Tindale and I comen at last to some poynt . For he sayth a thynge here , wyth whiche he answereth me well , and with good grammer sauynge for his poetry , for that marreth all hys mater . For I saye surely that he sayth not trouth / but that of goddes wordes they wrote not all / but dyuers thynges were by god to them and by them to other taughte by mouth , and by tradycyon from hande to hande delyuered , and from age to age hytherto contynued in Crystes chyrch . And that I saye trewth in thys poynt / I haue dyuers good and honest wytnesses to bryng forth when tyme requyreth / saynt Austayne , saynt Hyerom , saynt Cypryan , saynt Chrysostem , and a greate many mo / whyche haue also testefyed for my parte in thys mater more then a thousand yere a go . yet haue I a nother auncyent sad father also / one that they call Origene . And when I desyred hym to take the payne to come and bere wytnesse wyth me in thys mater , he semed at the fyrst very well content . But when I tolde hym that he sholde mete with Tindale : he blessed hym selfe & shranke bakke , and sayde he had leuer go some other waye many a myle then onys medle wyth hym . For I shall tell you syrquod he / before thys tyme a ryght honorable man very connyng and yet more vertuouse , the good bysshoppe of Rochester , in a great audyence brought me in for a wytnes agaynst Luther and Tyndale euyn in thy● same mater , aboute the tyme of the burnynge of Tyndalys euyll translated testament . But Tyndale as sone as he herde of my name / without any respecte of honestye fell in a rage wyth me and all to rated me , and called me starke heretyke , and that the starkeste that euer was . Thys tale Orygene tolde me & swore by saynt Symkyn that he was neuer so sayed vnto of suche a lewde felowe synnys he was fyrste borne of hys mother / and therfore he wolde neuer medle wyth Tyndale more . Now in dede to say the treuth yt was not well done of Tyndale to leue resonynge and fall a scoldyng , chydynge , and brawlynge , as yt were a bawdy begger of byllyter lane . Fy for shame he sholde haue fauored & forborne hym somwhat , and yt had bene but for his age . For Origene is now .xiii. hundred yere olde or there aboute / and this was not mych aboue .vii. yere synnes .

Now yf this made Tyndale bold to set Origene as short as his olde shone , bycause saynt Hierome founde some fautes in his workes : he muste remember agayne that many a good man , and among those saynte Pamphilus the blessed martyr / founde in Origenes doctrine so mych er●dycyon , deuocyon , & vertue , bysyde that they veryly thought those errours none of his / nor neuer were there any such fa●tes founden in his wrytynge whyle hym self lyued , nor no man offended with hym , & many places in his bokes playne that seme to saye the contrary . And therfore many good men thought and yet thynge , all be yt saynt Hierome thought otherwyse ( as he myght well inow whyle that poynte no thynge perteyneth to the fayth ) that chose heresyes were put in to hys bokes after his deth by some that were heretyques in dede / and wolde for the great estymacyon that Origene● was in thorough all the chyrch , anaunce theyr owne heresyes forwarde vnder the name and standard of his famouse authoryte .

But graunted nowe that those fa●tes were his whyche were imputed vnto hym , yet is this none of them . But saynte 〈…〉 so 〈…〉 Tyndales scoldyng , accepted and taken 〈◊〉 all 〈…〉 wyll I brynge in with hym some other that I haue named / and yet other mo bysyde , that shall as I sayd testyfye with me before this boke be done / that god hath taught his chyrche many thynges wherof in the scrypture his worde is yet vnwrytem .

But now wyll I for the meane while touchyng this poynt wheruppon the great wayghte of all the mater hangeth , go nerer vnto Tyndale a nother waye .

It is ye wote well agreed bytwene vs / or yf he wold be so madde to say naye , ye wyll yet your selfe agre this in his stede : that ones of olde tyme Cryste hym selfe and his apostles dyd teache and preache m●ny wordes of god vnwryten .

Now thus I say , syth many thynges were tought fyrst vnwryten yf any of them be yet lefte vnwryten / then saye I that Tyndale is at the leste wy●e temerariouse & ouer bolde , so certaynely to affyrme that any sacrament that the chyrch vseth and so longe hath vsed , or ceremony eyther , is idolatrye / for as mych as if we lakked sure profe vppon our syde ( whyche in dede we lakke not by reason of goddes spyryte by Crystes owne promyse euer abydynge wyth his chyrch , and teachyng it all trewth / but yf we lakke I say that profe for our parte ) yet were he to presumptuousely bowe so precysely to affyrme the contrary / syth he can not say naye but that they myght be some of those that were sometyme to●ghte vnwryten , and yet remayne obserued vnwryten / as the other that now be wryten were tought & kept wythout wrytynge before .

To this wyll Tyndall answere , that sy●●●● that tyme all goddes wordes , promyses , & sacramentes that he wold haue kepte and byleued in crys●●ndome : he hath caused to be wryten , by his euangelistes and apostles / and lefte n●ne vnwryten , to 〈…〉 that his chyrch shall not stande in any d●wte nor fall into any errour of any necessary poynt for lakke of wrytynge / but mo●e ●know● by that he hath caused all to be wryten , that all be false and fayned , and ●●ennys madde in●encyons that they byleue and obserue vnwryten . For w●y sholde he ●●●se some to be wryten and suffer some lefte vnwryten / to make men sure of some , and to leue some in 〈◊〉

〈…〉 cause / for he seeth why well inough , and therfore I wyll gyue no rekenynge why god hath caused some to be wryten and some to be lefte vnwryten . But thys wyll I be bolde to saye / that he was not of any necessyte compelled to wryte any one sacrament or ceremony or weyghty poynt of byleue , for any fere leste it sholde fall awaye / and that he coude not wyth hys owne spyryte kepe it in mennys hertes and vsage wythout wrytynge , as well as he kept in the good generacyons the knowledge of his promyses and his lawes longe and many ages before the lawe was wryten / and yet wrote them not all therin neyther , but the people had a fayth of Cryste amonge them more large then was wryten in theyr lawe / whyche went from hande to hande I thynke from Adams dayes , to whom it is lykely that god made after his fall some larger promyse and reuelacyon of hys redempcyon agayne , than we fynde made vnto hym wryten in any place of scrypture . But we shall not nede mych profe for thys mater / for that god was able to kepe all hys sacramentes and artycles of the fayth wythout wrytynge , Tyndale I wene wyll not deny me .

Now to say that yf he sholde haue lefte some vnwryten , it wolde haue made dowtes and debates and be occasyons of errours and heresyes / and the writyng doth put all thynges oute of dowte , and therfore god hath lefte none vnwryten : we se that thys maketh neyther more sure nor lesse . For as well dyd men byleue before the wrytyng those thynges that are now wryten , as euer they dyd synnys / and we beleue now the promyses as well that are vnwryten as any that are wryten . And the wrytynge taketh not away all the dowtes / but as many ryse thereuppon , and many mo then vppon those thynges that we byleue vnwryten .

For fyrste the credence to be gyuen to the hole boke in whyche they be wryten / hangeth all vppon the same fayth vppon whyche dependen the thynges that are vnwryten . For as I byleue the tone so byleue I the tother . And as one maye by hys owne frowardnes lakke the grace to byleue the thynges vnwryten : so maye a nother by his owne malyce lakke the grace to byleue any parte of the hole boke of holy scrypture that is wryten / and take it all for fantasyes . And in good sayth I am aferd that so do they whych saye they byleue nothynge els but it . For as for parte of the boke they brynge in que●●y●̄ / 〈◊〉 boke of the Machabees , by cause it maketh questyon / as agaynst theyr purpose concernyng purgatory . And parte they let not mych to deny / as Luther doeth the epystle of saynte Iamys , bycause it speketh playnely agaynst hys idle workelesse fayth .

Now in that partes whyche they graunte for scrypture : yet taketh it not awaye all the dowtes . But vnto such folke as Tyndale is and Luther , that be so contencyouse : it mynystreth rather mych mater of dowte and of debate , & that mych more then do the thynges that are obserued wythout wrytynge .

For fyrst they refuse to obserue them , bycause they saye they fynde them not there wryten / & so ryseth that questyon fyrst vppon the wrytynge .

Then yf it be founden there : then dyspute they whyther it be fully founden there / as whyther we fynde there bothe the token and the thynge betokened . For the sacrament take they but for a bare sygne / and the thynge that is sygnyfyed they call no thynge but Crystes onely promyse . And here make they vppon the wrytynge many greate batayles , to bete downe allmoste all the sacramentes , sauyng scant one and an halfe . Then vppon the letter rayse they many greate errours , and saye the scripture is playne vppon theyr syde . And thys say not onely Luther , Tyndale , and Swynglius with frere Huskyn and hys felowes , agaynst the interpretacyon of all holy doctours and sayntes , and the comen fayth of all trewe crysten people .xv. hundred yere before them : but eche of them selfe also agaynst other amonge them selfe saye and swere that the scrypture is playne for theyr parte .

So that as for necessyte of wrytynge all or any parte concernynge the sacramentes , ceremonyes , or artycles of the fayth , god was not dreuen thereto / nor by the wrytynge be taken awaye the dowtes . But as I wote it well that god had good and greate causes why he caused some thynges to be wryten : so had he causes as good why he lefte some vnwryten . But neyther can Tyndale tell why he sholde wryte all , nor I gyue the rekenynge why he lefte some vnwryten .

To thys wyll Tyndale happely say ( for ellys can not I se what he can say ) that god hath causyd all his wordes spoken to his chyrche to be wryten in holy scrypture / and hath in the same scrypture gyuen vs playne warnynge that he so hath done / and thereby hath he delyuered vs from dyuerse dowtes though not from all . For all be it the dyuerse dowte● yet ryse vppon the writtynge : we , by his expresse warnyng in wrytynge shewynge that all is wryten / be put oute of all dowte , that we shall byleue nothynge as his worde wherof there is no wrytynge .

Surely yf Tyndale tell me this tale as in dede he doth / for both Luther and he and frere Huskyn and Swynglius , and all the rable of that rascayle / neuer ceace to saye thys / and they fynde folys that byleue them better vppon theyre bare wordes , then they wolde more honeste men vppon theyr obligacyons / but now as I say yf Tyndale tell me this tale : I shall by his leue be bolde to denye yt hym / and pray hym onys to proue yt yf he can fynde how . For this I wote well , they haue amonge them made great boste a great whyle / & alwaye promysed that they wyll byeld vppe that towre / and make yt very strong and sure / and surely so haue they great nede to do , for therein lyeth all the store of all theyr gunne powder , brymstone , pytch , & wyld fyre , that they shote out at the blessed sacramentes of our sauyour Cryste . And as for hytherto , brought they neuer yet so mych good stuffe , as wolde make a tyle pynne to fence theyr fortresse wythall . And what so euer they bryng herafter : they shall make pore paper walles .

But to th entent that they shall not bygyle you : lette vs wyth one worde or twoo put them in remembraunce what thynges they be that they muste nedes proue , and that by playne scripture to / for other profe them selfe wyll none admytte .

Tyndale muste proue me fyrst therfore by playne & euydent scrypture , that all the wordes necessarye to remayne & be knowen , whych our sauyour hym selfe and his apostles tought ones withoute wrytynge : all those he hath caused to be by them and his euangelistes wryten , preserued , and kepte , in playne and euident scripture . when Tyndale hath proued this , for whych I dare geue hym respyte tyll domes daye : then muste he yet by playne and euydent scrypture profe me farther lo / & for the profe therof though the poyntes be but easy , let hym take yet his tyme fyftene dayes after , wythin whyche he muste I saye by playne and euydent scrip●●●● p●ofe me farther yet of these two thynges one / that is to wy●●●ther that euery necessary worde whych god hath spoken by hymselfe and his holy spyryte vnto his chyrche , synnys the d●th of his .iiii. euangelystes and his .xii. apostles / he hathe caused to be also secretly sette in and wryten to these bokes whych Tyndale agreeth for holy scrypture / or ellys muste he profe me by playne and euydent scripture , that not wythstandynge his promyse made vnto his chyrch in his apostles dayes , that he wolde wyth his holy spyryte speke to his chyrch hym self and dwell therwyth and teache yt all trewth from tyme to tyme all dayes euen to the day of dome : yet as sone as he saw his apostles dede , & no man that herde hym left to bere vs wytnesse what he sayde / he bygan to go from his worde agayne , & sware that he wold eyther no lenger dwell here wyth his chyrch / or yf he cam , yt shold be but a geste wyse / and yet wold he play mumme to , and neyther by hym selfe nor his holy spyryte vouchsaufe to speke any one worde vnto them , that were at the leste wyse aught worthy the wrytynge but some wanton tryfle .

Remember nowe good reader that these be the thynges whyche Tyndale hathe to proue . And when he proueth these few thynges / then beleue hym hardely and so wyll I do to . But surely who so byleue hym wyth any lesse / vnder standeth nothynge what the mater meaneth .

Now yet ones agayne lette vs consyder Tyndales olde tyme / in whych he sayth the trew pure preachyng was vsed that is now quyte gone . I wolde aske hym when ended that olde tyme of his / and when beganne his new . He saythe yt hath bene thus as yt is more then this .viii. hundred yeres / and me thynketh .viii. hundred is a very longe nowe . But yet consyder good reader yf the trew preachynge was lefte and gone .viii. yere a go and more : then can he not say nay but that the trew fayth went quyte away therwith / without whych can be no chyrch of Cryste neyther catholyque nor of electes . And thus doth Tyndale tell vs that this .viii. yere at the laste our lorde hath broke his promyse / by whyche he promysed to be with his chyrch all days to the worldes ende . This man maketh hygh boste of Crystes promyses / & wold with them destroye all vertue safe fayth . And now ye se that playnely he denyeth Crystes promyse to / and wyll I wene at laste denye euen Cryste and all . For as ye se at your eye , he draweth very faste towarde yt .

Now tyll Tyndale therfore haue proued vs these few poyntes that are for theyr falsehed impossyble to be proued : the chyrche shall not nede for his fonde raylynge any thyng to fere , to vse the deuoute sacramentes & ceremonyes taught and delyuered them by god and his holy spyryte . For s●yghte wherof the deuyll and his damned spyrytes crye vppon to haue them lefte of / and bere vs in hand that they be frutelesse . For Tyndale sayth that they neyther tame the flesshe , nor do good to thy neyghbour , nor be honour to god .

But now doth all good crysten people very well perceyue by Crystes owne promyse in the very wryten gospell / that the chyrche of Cryste ys taught by hys holy spyryte , that these sacramentes and ceremonyes do please god . And they perceyue and se also that the holy sayntes whyche haue vsed them before our dayes / be now longe a go rewarded in heuyn wyth god . And they perceyue also that in the vse therof / theyr myndes rysen and be lyfte vppe a lofte in deuocyon to god / and b● these thynges and such lyke they perceyue well that Tyndale doeth but bylye them . For syth goddys spyryte hath ●aught them / they muste nedys be honour to god . And when men come togyther to honour god , eche of them is ꝓfyt●●le to other / for ellys were theyr assembly togyther in pr●your no dyfference from the prayour of one man alone . But when they come togyther to goddys seruyce / the hole company pr●●eth for the hole presence , and so is eueryche the better for ●thers praiour / 〈◊〉 all people the better bothe for the prayou● and the sacrament , and euery deuowte obser●ou●s vsed in the chyrche at the dyuyne seruyce .

And it is thyrdely very profytable to the very tamynge ●f the flesshe ●lso . For what thynge is there that better 〈…〉 flesshe then the grace of god . Dyd not god 〈…〉 ●a●le when he thryes prayed vnto hym to wythdraw●●he prykke of the flesshe , 2. Cori. 12 wyth whyche our lord suffered 〈◊〉 angel● of Sathan to vexe hym , leste hys herte 〈…〉 waxe prowde in beholdynge the 〈…〉 of hys reuelacyons / whyche though 〈…〉 for some other kynde of trybulacyon , 〈…〉 the very flesshely mocy●n 〈…〉 not then our lorde I say 〈…〉 S●ffyseth vnto the my 〈…〉 then sy●h 〈◊〉 can better ●ame the flesshe 〈…〉 god / whiche not onely can tame it but also 〈…〉 so resysted by the soule , that the 〈…〉 to ●●ryte & 〈◊〉 why shall 〈…〉 as the spyryte of good hath 〈…〉 whyche obedyently done wyth deuocyon and with desyre of grate , do stande in the stede of one of the moste effectuall kyndes of prayour / be profytable to the tamynge of the flesshe ? and eyther cause it the lesse to rebelle / or ellys ( whyche is yet happely better ) strength the soule in suche wyse agaynst the rebellyon of the flesshe , that by the valyaunt resystynge thereof , it may haue the more gloryouse triumphe of the vyctory . And for experyens ( let Tyndale say what it please hym ) good folke fynd thys in dede / that when they be at the dyuyne seruyce in the chyrche , the more deuowtely that they se suche godly ceremonyes obserued , & the more solempnite that they se therin / the more deuocyon fele they themselfe therwith in theyr owne soulys , and theyr flesshe the more tame and lesse rebellyouse , and farre the better in temper / so that all though they were at other tymes and places in ryght greate rage , yet in the chyrche at the voyces of Crystes mynysters in the quere / wyth organys and all to gether , & beholdyng the solem●ne godly sacramentes , and ceremonyes in theyr syghte , they fele theyr passyons appeased / as dyd kynge Saule in hys ragyouse fury at the sowne of Dauyds harpe .

Now where he sayth that of olde tyme the offycers appoynted thereto , prayed in a to●g that all folke vnderstode / of whyche poynte Tyndale maketh mych a do , and many tymes he speketh therof , bycause he wolde fayne haue hys false translacyon brought in to the chyrche to be there sayed and songen a goddys halfe : I wyll not saye nay but th●● in Grece and greate parte of Italy , they bothe sayde in the begynnynge the seruyce of the chyrche i● theyr owne tonge . But so dyd they not neyther in Affryke , nor in Almayne , nor in Spayne , no● in Fraunce , 〈◊〉 in Englande , nor as I trowe in any place 〈◊〉 elles , 〈◊〉 yet were they good men that brought 〈…〉 to all these contrees . And sone after also 〈…〉 chaunged bothe in Grece and Italy : the● 〈…〉 the seruyce in the olde langage , w●yche 〈…〉 people dyd not vnderstande / whiche wolde 〈…〉 so many good men so longe suffred so , 〈…〉 had 〈◊〉 requyred of necessyte . And saynt Paule 〈…〉 to 〈◊〉 Corynthyes , wherof Tyndale so myc● 〈…〉 the commodyte of the guyse that then was 〈◊〉 the C●●●●●thyes , for the confyrmacyon of hys reason agaynst● 〈…〉 coude but rede and speke and yet wolde smatet in 〈…〉 wyllynge the Corynthyes to labour fyrste for better vnderstandynge , and not therby meanynge that of necessyte the people muste nedes answere all to gether vnto the blessyng of the preste or the byshoppe . whych manner hath peraduenture for some thynge that in progresse of tyme they founde abused therin : ben chaunged in to better / as haue ben dyuerse other thynges and not wythout the secrete workynge of god .

And surely yf all the seruyce were in englyshe : yet wold yt not therby be mych the more vnderstanden / whyche was all the mater that saynt Paule spake . For many that nowe do vnderstande the laten tonge , do lytle yet vnderstande the sentence , farther then the bare storyes and collettes .

But lyke wyse as in some wordes that remayne styll vntranslated in to laten / men vse them with deuocyon , as amen and alleluia , that neuer knowe more of the sygnyfycacyon then that they be holy wordes : so do there many a good man and good woman bothe saye and here the seruyce of god in the chyrch wyth full great reuerence , and full great deuocyon / and therfore wyth great thanke of god / though they haue yt not in theyr owne vulgare tonge / whych thynge what yt wolde do here god knoweth . But as for Almayne there as yt is so all redy / we se well inough that yt dothe no great good there . For where as the people were fallen all redy to many folde heresyes : they now turne all the swete hony that they fynde in the seruyce , quy●e in to the poyson that hath taken vppe theyr hertes before .

And therfore where as Tyndale sayth that there is nothynge he●● in the chyrch amonge vs / but houlynge , buzsynge , and cryenge out , lyke halowyng of the foxe or baytynge of berys : yt maye well seme so to Tyndale and suche as he is / but vnto good deuout folke yt semeth farre other wyse .

But in theyr chyrch in Almayne , there is a nother manner of howlynge and halowynge & cryenge out . For where as we wyth holy wordes and trew fayth hawle and halowe out the false fox , and bayte out the rugged bere the deuyll : you Tyndale in your chyrches of heretyques , crye oute as lowde as we and lowder to / for ye crye out men and women and all . 〈◊〉 with your heresyes hawle out all sayntes & bayte 〈…〉 holy sacramentes and 〈…〉 oute god & all .

If 〈…〉 that is peraduenture mysse vsed in some places / where happely the fasshyon is more ruffelynge and in lesse moderacyon & sobernesse , then were conuenyent for mouynge men to deuocyon : as euyll as I lyke the man in such thynges as he sayth nought , that is almoste in all / yet wolde I fynde no faute wyth hym in that he sayed well . But nowe he saythe not that some such thynges be misse orderd somewhere / but that there is none other .

As for songe I se not why he sholde vtterly dysprayse in goddes seruyce / whyche was a thynge not onely vsed in the olde law but the new to , as well appereth by saynte Paule in his fyrste epystle to the Corinthyes . As for harpes and instrumentes of musyke / the scrypture sheweth yt openly both in the psalmes and many other places of scrypture / bysyde dawnsynge to , Psal. 150 1. Paralip. 13 2. Regum . 6 whych is more then men vse here now .

But Tyndale can be pleased wyth no fasshyon neyther cathedrall chyrch , nor paryshe chyrch , nor chapell , nor monkes , nor freres , nor nonnes , neyther Grenewych , Syon , nor charterhouse . If the quere be lowde : then they crye out . If they synge any thynge : yet they halow and bayte . If they do but saye so●●e : yet they buzse / so that I se well no fasshy● can please Ty●●●le but his owne : for as he , neyther cryeth oute , nor haloweth , nor bayteth , nor b●zseth in any seruy●e sayeng . For as th●y saye that know hym : he sayth none at allꝭ neyther matens , euyns●nge , nor masse / nor commeth at no chyrche but eyther to gase or talke .

But good crysten people whom he belyeth and sayth that they wene no m●n may pr●y but at chyrch : they praye both at c●yrch and at home / but yet more gladly at ●●yrche . For th●u●● they 〈◊〉 well that in ●●oydynge of vayne glorye ●word taught vs to praye in oure chamber : yet shewed he 〈…〉 spec●●●ly deputed to prayour . And yt is none hyprocrysye to 〈◊〉 there 〈◊〉 yt is to praye in the ●trete . For when they pr●●e in the ●hyrche they do but as other folke .

〈…〉 Matth. 21 so in the playne lytterall sence robbe oute the relyques and ornamentes of the chyrch to , pollute and myssespende them in prophane vses to fyll theyr belyes and couer theyr pokky scabbed skynnes wythall , Danielis .5 mych worse then kynge Balthazare abused the halowed vesselles of the temple , to serue his owne prowde execrable glotony .

And when they haue thus robbed the chyrches : then lodge they formore dyspyghte theyre frerys and theyr nonnes in them / and of an halowed chyrche they make a stynkyng stewys . And this is yet one sygnifycacyon more that Tyndales mayster hath made a chyrche to sygnyfye scilicet a bordele for brothelys anglice a stewys / whyche sygnifycacyon also Tyndale hath here lefte out .

The secunde chapyter why Tyndale vsed congregacyon for chyrche●

IN the seconde chapyter Tyndale sayth , that he chaunged thys worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon in the newe tes●●ment where he founde thys worde ecclesia in latyn / bycause that the clergye had he sayth brought the people in to the igno●●uns of the trew sygnyfycacyon of thys 〈◊〉 chyrche , makynge them vnderstande therby no thynge but the clergy .

〈…〉 is 〈◊〉 false what so euer Tyndale say . For all be it that men call the clergye by the name of the chyrche , as the parte ordayned of god to be the more spyrytuall parte therof : yet is there no man I suppose so rude , but that he knoweth and so hereth the clergy preche also them selfe , that of the chyrche of Cryste is euery crysten man / and that the hole chyrch is the hole crysten people / and therfore they 〈…〉 lyke c●●rche that is v●y●ersall / by whyche 〈…〉 I 〈◊〉 so madde to meane ●●ely the 〈…〉 Tyndale agaynst hys owne 〈◊〉 ●●porte 〈◊〉 s●lfe 〈◊〉 ●●ery other mennys . I wolde 〈…〉 so mych to other mennys con 〈…〉 of 〈…〉 where 〈…〉 haue not gyuen them selfe the name . The word is englysshe / and they teche not euery man hys mother tonge , as men teche chyldren theyr a b c. But the good people haue of olde tyme though they knowe them selfe also for parte of the chyrche : yet bycause the chyrch sygnyfyed an holy name of a crysten company gathered togyder in god , haue therefore of humylyte on theyr owne parte and reuerence towarde them , vsed to call the clergye by that name / accomptynge them for the more godly parte of that hole godly company .

And the spyrytualtye agayn warde do playnely declare , and euer haue declared in theyr prechynge / that the name is generall and comune bothe to the temporalte and them / and at large they declare the dyuerse partes of the chyrche , and therin reken them selfe but for one . And thys name so vsed by the temporaltye of theyr owne humylyte and reuerence to warde the spyrytualtye : is not a thynge new founden , but bygonne of olde / at suche tyme as bothe the partyes were I wene sumwhat better , then I fere me they be bothe now .

But now that thynge the good folke haue of good mynde bygonne , and many hundred yerys contynu●d / Tyndale as one of a nother sorte wolde haue vtterly chaunged / and rather then ley men sholde haue any suche reuerent mynde to prestys as to call them the chyrch he wolde take it from them bothe / and puttynge awaye from bothe that holy name of chyrche , wolde call them both by the name of congregacyon , a worde wythoute any sygnyfycacyon of crystendome any more then of Iewys or Turkes .

Tyndale

To this an●wereth Tyndale and sayth , yf this worde congregacyon were a more generall terme then this worde chirche : yt hurteth not , for the circu●staunce doth euer declare what thynge is ment thereby .

More .

If the settyng of the cyrcumstaunce make all well inoughe he nedeth not mych to care what worde he chaunge●● nor how . For he maye set suche cyrcumstaunces of 〈…〉 deuyce / that he maye make men perceyue w●at h● meaneth . For so he maye translate the worlde in to ●●o●eball yf he ioyne therwyth certeyne 〈◊〉 , and saye this rownderollynge foteball that 〈…〉 vppon 〈…〉 sayle vppon , in the people whereof there is no 〈…〉 stabylyte , and so forth a greate longe tale / wyth 〈…〉 staunces he myght as I say make any worde vnderstanden as yt lyke hym selfe , what so euer the worde byfore sygnyfyed of yt selfe . But surely the worde congregacyon wyth the circunstaunces in the texte : wolde not haue serued when he translated yt fyrste to make the englyshe reader to take it for the chyrch / no more then idolys for ymages , or ymages for idoles as he translateth in lykewyse , or repentynge for doynge penaunce whych he chaungeth to . But ma●y he hath added vnto his translacion such circumstaunces synnys , that the order of pre●thed is ryght nought / but that euery man , woman , and chylde is as very a preste as a preest in dede / & that euery man & woman may consecrate the body of Criste and say masse as well as any preste , and here confessyon & assoyle as well as maye a preste / and that there is no dyfference bytwene other folke and prestes , but all one congregacyon and company wythout any diffeerce saue an appoyntement to preache / and also that the comen knowen people of all crysten realmes , clergye , laye people , and all , be not the chyrche nor be no parte of the chyrche , bycause they vse sacramentes and ceremonyes and diuine ser●yce in chyrches / but that the chyrch is a secrete congregacyon of vnknowen chosen heretikes , scatered abrode in corners , and studyenge to destroye the chyrche .

These circumstaunces in dede make men to perceyue and vnderstande , what Tyndale meaneth by thys worde congregacyon put in hys t●anslacyon in the stede of chyrche . And they p●●cyue clerely by these cyrcum●●aunces , that he chaunged that worde of purpose to set forth those he●esyes of hys wythall / as boldely as he now sayth ●ay . But all his glose is therin that he wyll saye he taketh than for none heresyes . But on the tother syde all good faythfull people do , and therfore they call the chyrch the chyrch styll , and wyll not agre to ch●●nge the olde chyrch for his new congregacyon , but burne vppe his bokes that so calle● 〈◊〉 & who so wold so begynne to call yt , wold and well myght begynne to call 〈◊〉 hereteque , for his de●ytynge in the imi●●cyon of herety●●●● , and his euyll appetyte to sp●ke after an heretyques 〈◊〉

Tyndale .

For whereso euer saythe he that I maye saye a congregacyon / there I maye say a chyrch also / as the chyrch of the deuy●l , the chyrch of Sathan , the chyrch of wreches , the chyrche of wykked men , the chyrch of ly●rs , and a chyrch of Turkes thereto .

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This is lustely sayde of Tyndale add lyke a man . But yt pleaseth hym not to consyde● that I sayed that this worde congregacyon is indyffere●● vnto Turkes and crysten men and vnto all othe● companyes and a company of cristen men , so that yt as well sygnifyeth a companye of Turkes as of crysten men / and that this worde chyrch doth sygnifye a company of crysten people , and is not indyfferent to a company of Turkes and of crysten men . And I sayed and yet I say , that this is trew of the vsuall sygnifycacyon of these wordes them selfe in the englyshe tonge , by the comen custume of vs englyshe peple , that eyther now do vse these wordes in our langage , or that haue vsed byfore oure dayes . And I saye that this comen c●stume and vsage of speche is the onely thynge , by whyche we knowe the ryght and proper sygnifycacyon of any worde / in so mych that yf a worde were take● oute of l●te● french , or spaynishe , & were for lakke of vnderstandynge of the tonge from whense yt cam , vsed for a nother thynge in englyshe then yt was in the formare tonge : then sygnyfyeth it in england none other thyng than as we vse yt and vnderstande therby , what so euer yt sygnifye any where elles . Then saye I now that in England this worde congregacyon dyd neuer sygnyfye the number of crysten people as cristen pe●●le , wyth a connotacyon or consyderacyon of theyr fayth o● crystendome / no more then this worde assemble , whych ●ath bene taken out of the frenche , and now is by custume b●c●men englyshe / as cong●egacyon is out of the latyne . A●d yet I denye ●ot but vnder those wordes both twayne may be c●isten men spoken of . For euery asse●●blye and congregacyon in crysten realmes / is comē●● made of crysten pe●ple . But they be not there called cong●egacyon or ●ssemble , bycause th●●●e crystened / but 〈◊〉 be so called though they were Iewes or Saracens , though they 〈◊〉 so knowen and ●welled in cryst●nd●me . I say ●●w in lykewyse that this worde chyrche 〈◊〉 hath bene vsed to 〈◊〉 other companye then● crysten●d in comen spe●he 〈…〉 realme . And for this cause , and yet most 〈…〉 of Tyndals euyll entent / I sayed and yet saye that he dyd noughte in the chaunge of chyrche for congregacyon , an holy worde for a prophane as farreforth as they both sygnyfye in our englysshe tonge , in to whyche Tyndale made hys translacyon .

Thys was and is the thyng that I sayed and say . Now in sayenge thys / I do not saye vntrew , though Tyndale be at hys lybertye to call a chyrche what hym lyste . For neuer ●ayed I the contrary , but the Tyndale where so euer he maye saye a congregacyon there he maye saye a chyrche to . For though none englysshe men be wonte to speke so , nor in the comune spech the worde sygnyfyeth not so , nor of the chyrche that he sholde in his translacyon haue ment of , no good man wyll saye so : yet may Tyndale saye so , the chyrche of Sathan , the chyrche of wretches , the chyrche of wykked men ; the chyrche of lyers , and a chyrche of Turkys to / and yet & he lyste he maye set to it the chyrche of heretykes , and the chyrche of deuyls to .

But now though Tyndale may thus saye for hys pleasure whyche I deny not : yet can he not saye that thys is the proper sygnyfycacyon of that worde , whyche is the thynge that a translatour must regarde . But it is a certey●e fygure and maner of spekynge , by whyche men vse amonge to expresse a thynge by hys contra●y / as a man myghte say this is the wysdome of a fole / thys is the trouth of a false shrew / thys is the fayth of an heretyke . Thus may Tyndale abuse the holy name of chyrche to any lewde thynge that he lyste / but thys is not the parte of a tr●nslatour .

But Tyndale now to conuycte me clerely by lernynge & reason dowble confyrmed w●●h scrypture : sheweth hym selfe in few wordes that he bothe lakketh lernynge and reason , & shamefully abuseth the scrypture . These are his wordes .

Tyndale .

M. More muste nedys 〈…〉 haue ecclesia translated thorow oute all the new test●ment by thi● 〈◊〉 chyrche ) that chyrch is as comen as ●●clesi● . Now is eccle●i● a greke ●●rde , and was in vse byfore the tyme of 〈…〉 , and taken for a cong●eg●cyon amonge the Hethen , where no 〈◊〉〈…〉 or of Cryste . And also Luke hym selfe vseth ecclesia for 〈…〉 of Hethen people● thryes in one chapyter , euen in 〈…〉 Demetrius the goldsmyth o● syl●●rsmyth had gathered a 〈…〉 .

More .

Let vs now bygynne at the fyrste pece & ye shall se what he hath / M. More muste nedes graunte that chyrche is as comen as ecclesia , yf he will haue this worde ecclesia thorowe oute all the new testament translated by this worde chyrche .

Fyrst I say that mayster More must not nedys graunte thys to Tyndale neuer a whytte . For yf he turne it from a condycyonall proposycyon in to an affyrmatyue antecedent and consequent : it shall sone be shewed hym that hys consequent were possyble to be false and hys antecedent trewe . For it myghte be that thys worde ecclesia dyd sygnyfy m● thynges then the wryters of the new testament had occasyon to speke of wythin the same . And then though I wolde graunt vnto Tyndale that thys worde ecclesia sholde thorowout the new testament be translated by this word chyrch : yet must I not nedys be dreuen to graunte hym for all that , that chyrche were as comen as eccle●ia , bycause it sholde not yet sygnyfye those other sygnyfycacyons of ecclesia that were not spoken of wythin the newe testament . And thus where Tyndale wolde vppon suche an antecedent bynde me by and by of necessyte to hys consequent : it appereth that though I graunted hym the tone / I must not nedys for all hys great worde graunte hym the tother at all .

But now though I must not nedys yet wyll I graunte hym of courtesye / that yf I wyll haue ecclesia translated thorow out all the new testament by thys worde chyr●he● that then I muste nedys graunte thys terme chyrche to be as comen , and sygnifye as large and as many th●●ges as this terme ecclesia . But now when I that must not nedys graunte thys to Tyndale : Tyndale may not chose but must nedys graunte me thys agayne , that yf I wyll not haue ecclesia thorow out the new testament translated by thys word c●●●che that then Tyndale in all hys gay tale telleth vs nothy●●e to purpose . But that argument is now lyke as yf he wolde haue argued thus : If mayster More wyll graun●● me that euery horse is a goose : then must he nedys gr●●nte me that euery mare must haue a gander to get her 〈◊〉 ●ole . For I nede not to graunte hym the thy●●● that he ●●pposeth .

Now tell I Tyndale that in no wyse I ●yll not haue it so / and that I neuer tolde hym that 〈…〉 haue so . ●u● I saye playnely that yf he sh●l●e tho●●●o●t 〈◊〉 the 〈◊〉 stament translate thys worde e●clesia by thys worde 〈◊〉 I saye that he sholde translate it very naught .

And for bycause that Tyndale eyther euyll perceyueth my wordes , or elles euyll remembred them / or fynally which is moste lykely , wolde wyllyngly make the reader to take them wronge : I wyll desyre the reader to loke vppon the place hym selfe , which is the .viii. chapyter of the thyrd boke / and there shall he fynde that I fynde the faute , not in that he translateth this worde ecclesia sometyme in to this worde congregacyon , but that he chaungeth this worde chyrch in to this worde congregacyon , that is to say , that he translateth this worde ecclesia in to this worde congregacyon , in such places as he shold haue translated yt in to this word chyrch / that is where so euer he hath put this worde congregacyon for the companye of crysten people / for that companye is in englyshe sygnyfyed and of olde hath ben by this holy word chyrche and neuer by this worde congregacyon .

This is the faute that I fynde , and tell Tyndale in that chapyter good and playne causes wherfore , whyche Tyndale here letteth slyppe .

But I wolde in no wyse that as Tyndale taketh me / ecclesia sholde alwaye be translated by this worde chyrche , for that were also wrong . For trewth it is that ecclesia sygnifyeth in the greke tonge a congregacyon , wythout respecte of eyther good or bad crysten or vncrysten . For Tyndale sayth therin trewth , that the worde ecclesia was vsed a thousande yere before crystendome byganne as the bokes proue . But yt wyll be hard to proue & warraunt that this word chyrch was vsed for any congregacyon byfore cri●tendome began , or that euer it sygnifyed any cogregacion other then crysten . And therfore his reason grounded vppon this worde ecclesia is lytle worth / syth it procedeth not in lykewyse in this word chyrch

And yet toūchynge this worde ecclesia / as connynge as Tyndale wold seme therin wyth his greke & all : he semeth bu● porely to perceyue yt . For ye shall vnderstand that this worde ecclesia in the greke tonge dyd not sygnyfye euery man ●●●●●●upany or congregacyon , nor sygnyfyed not all the cytesay●● of a●y cytye , wyth that respecte that they were cyte●●●●●s of ●hat●yty , or that they were gathered for playeng or 〈…〉 any such other ca●se : but onely these congr●ga●●●● 〈◊〉 ●ere gather●d to g●ther to commen vppon 〈…〉 eyther aboute the comen 〈…〉 peace or wa●re or some other commodyte , or for pryuate folkes besynes in such places as all the comen people were iudges , as mych was vsed in Grece and sometyme in Rome to , and was as ye wolde saye the assemblye of the court or the comen counsayle .

Now for as myche as crysten people dyd resort to gether amonge them selfe to prayour and preachyng , and makyng of good ordynaunces delyuered them by the apostles : thys name of ecclesia was applyed vnto the congregacyon of the crysten company . And though yt beganne of such assembles together : yet afterwarde yt obtayned also , bothe amonge the Grekes and Latines crystened , to sygnyfye the crysten folk whyther they were at chyrch or at home , and to sygnyfye also the vnyuersall nomber of all crysten people thorow oute all the world / where as it sygnifyed no such maner of thyng among the paynyms byfore , but onely theyr seuerall assembles such as I byfore descrybed you , and whych was in laten called concio . And yet toke the laten chirch the greke word ecclesia of the greke chyrch that beganne byfore them / and neuer vsed this worde concio , whych sygnyfyed amonge the latine paynyms , both the congregacyon or assembly , and the oracyon also that any man pronounced among them in the same assembly .

Now may ye perceyue that Tyndale wyth all his greke tolde you but a lame tale . For he telleth you not what manner of congregacyon ecclesia dyd sygnyfye in the greke / but mysse taketh yt to sygnyfye euery manner of congregacyon at auenture .

And by this ye maye also perceyue how lytle yt maketh for his purpose , that saynte Luke wherof Tyndale so bosteth calleth ecclesia thryes in one chapyter of the actes , the congregacyon that was gathered in Ephese agaynste saynte Paule . For that was suche a congregacyon as I tell you , that ecclesia properly sygnifyed amonge the paynyms / sauyng that they gathered to gether vppon a rumour and not after theyr customable callynge .

Now though the chyrch was then newly bygonne to be called by the same name of ecclesia , and that after th example of the tother assembly , and the name not taken from the tother assemblye , nor they● assembly for suche maters called by none other : how wolde Tyndale haue had saynte Luke tell the tale but by suche wordes as then represented the mater ? But that maketh nothynge for his purpose , but 〈◊〉 agaynste yt . For syth that this worde ecclesia , dyd there sygnyfy that congregacyon of the Ephesyans whyche were paynyms / and therfore in that place ought not to be translated by this word chyrch , whych sygnifyeth onely a cristen congregacyon and not a congregacyon of paynyms : so shuld ecclesia in lyke wyse whereso euer yt sygnyfyeth a crysten congregacyon , be translated by this worde chyrch / whyche is & euer hath ben the worde that synnes crystendome fyrste beganne amonge englyshe men hath alway serued therfore / & not be translated by this worde congregacyon , whych word of congregacyon is a worde of latine , and sygnyfyeth a sort gathered to gether in to one floke , as they speke , in gregem oui uin , gregem gruum , gregem anserum . And so when Tyndale hath all sayed and all done / this worde congregacion , excepte some specyall places where they haue by custome appoynted it to sygnyfye some sorte of men , as in some vnyuersyties yt sygnifyeth theyr assembles : ellys where no such custome hath appropred yt to any specyall manner of congregacyon / the terme congregacyon absolutely sette , sygnifyeth no more a companye of crysten men , then a fayre flokke of vncrysten geese .

But yet the chaunge of the worde , yf Tyndale had done it eyther of chaunce or of purpose for hys pleasure , and for none euyll purpose : I wolde neuer haue spoken worde agaynst it . But for as mych as I perceyue that he hath ben with Luther , and was to at the same tyme when he so translated it / and that I knewe well the malycyouse heresyes that Luther began to brynge forth : therfore muste I nedys myssetruste hym in the chaunge●

And now I saye that euyn of hys owne wordes spoken here / ye maye in hys trans●acyons perceyue hys cancred mynde . For he sayth that Demetrius had gathered a company agaynst Paule for prechynge agaynste ymages . Here may the crysten reader well perceyue the poyson of thys serpent . It is to no man vnknowen that all good crysten people do bothe abhorre the Idols of the false Paynyme goddes , and honour also the ymages of Cryste and oure lady and other holy sayntes . And as they call the tone sort ymagys : so call they the tother sorte Idollys . Now where as saynte Paule preched there agaynste idols : cometh thys good man and sayth he preched agaynste ymages .

And as he sp●keth here / euyn so he translateth . For in the fyfte chapyter of saynte Paule to the Corynthyes , where saynte Paule sayth I haue wryten to you that ye company not togyther , yf any that is called a broder be a fornycatour or couetouse or a worshypper of idols : there translated Tyndale , or a worshypper of ymages / bycause he wolde haue it seme that the apostle had in that place forboden crysten men to worshyppe any ymages / and that who so worshypped any ymages , men sholde not company wyth hym . Here ye maye se the synceryte and playne menynge of the mannes translacyone .

Now seeth he well inough , that saynte Paule spake not of ymages but of idols / and he perceyued both that he so dyd , and also wherfore he so dyd , by hys other wordes wryten in the tenth chapyter of the same pystle / where saynt Paule spekynge of the meate offred vnto idols whyche he wolde the crysten men sholde forbere , sayth in thys wyse : what say I then that the idoll is any thynge , or that it whyche is offred to idols is any thynge ? Nay , but I saye that those thynges whyche the Paynyms offer / they offer to deuyls and not to god , and I wolde not that ye sholde haue any felysshyppe wyth deuyls .

Thys onely texte of saynte Paule is inough to answere all the hole hepe of heretyques , that barke agaynste holy ymagys that good men honour for goddys sake . For saynt Paule here sheweth that the cause why the worshyppynge of idols was vnlefull amonge the gentyles or Paynyms / was bycause that the worshyppe that was done to those idols , was done to deuylys . And why , but for bycause that it was done to those idols for the loue and honour that they bare to those deuyls , whom they called goddes , and whom those idols represented .

But so it is on the tother syde , that good folke whyche worshyppe ymages of Cryste and hys sayntes : do worshyp therby Cryste and hys sayntes whome those ymagys represente . wherfore it foloweth that lyke wyse as the p●●●yms worshyppers of idols dyd euyll in the worshyppynge of them , bycause that in the worshyppynge of them they worshypped deuyls : ryght so do the crysten men well in the worshyppynge of ymages , bycause th●t in the worshyppyng of ymages they worshyppe Cryste and hys holy sayntes . And now ye se good crysten readers that thys one place of say●● Paule so playnly reproueth all these heretykes that 〈◊〉 agaynst ymagys / that sauyng they be ●hamelesse , they shold neuer loke any man in the face for shame .

But Tyndale to blynde the reader wyth / hath corrupted in his translacyon all this place of saynte Paule also , and hathe in euery place put oute idole and sette in ymage / to make the reader wene that saynte Paule speke all this agaynste ymages / whych he so speketh agaynst the paynyms idoles , that his reason which he maketh agaynst them , doth op●nly commende and conforme the crysten wurshyppynge of holy sayntes ymages . And here maye ye se what a trewe translacyon Tyndales is , and for what purpose he translateth yt false / and god prouydeth that the scrypture which he falsyfyeth , openly fyghteth agaynste hym .

This pageaunt hath he played also shamefully falsyfyenge saynt Paule in the secunde chapyter to the Romayns / where sait Paule sayth to the Iewes : Thou abhorrest idols and robbest god of his honour / meanyng that though they abhorted the paynem idoles , & wolde not worshyppe theyr false goddes that were deuyls : yet for all that , they by the brekynge of goddes law wyth theyr euyll lyuyng , they toke away the honour fro god , i● causynge hym and his law to be dyshonorably spoken of amonge the paynyms .

Now commeth me Tyndale , and in dyspyght of holy ymages he hath translated that place in this wyse : Thou abhorrest ymages and takest from god his honour . Here ye se Tyndales trewth lo. Dyd saynte Paule say so ? dyd saynt Paule meane so ? dyd the Iewes abhorre ymages ? they abhorted idoles but not ymages . They abhorred not in the arch the images of the angeles● though the abhorted abrode the idoles of deuyls . But Tyndales translacyon of this place may meruelousely well be sayed vn hym selfe : Thou abhorrest ymages Tyndale and takeste the honour fro god / for thou woldest haue vs set Crystes ymage at nought , whiche wythout goddes disho●our we can not do .

what shyft shall Tyndale fynde now ? wyll he saye that idoles and ymages be all one , bycause that idoles be a kynd of ymages , and ymage is a terme indyfferent to good and badde . For a man may saye and image of the deuyll as well as an ymage of god .

Tyndale shall I thynke fynde no reader so slē●erly wytted to su●●er hym skape so . For though idoles be of the kynde of ymages / yet syth they be such a specyall kynde , as alway to crysten mennys eares do sygnyfy euyll ymages & deuelyshe : he maye not in translacyon change the name into the generall , wherby yt may not be perceyued of which kynd he speketh . For this were very nought if he dyd it in fauour of the worse kynd , to make men wene it were better . And now when he doth it in hatered of the better kynd to make men wene it worse / the is to wit in dispyght of the images of god incarnate , & of his holy sayntes , to make them seme idoles : he doth an hundred tymes worse . For he were not so wreched by an hondred fold as wreched as he were / the nedys wolde in his fonde fashyon loue god & the deuyll to gether as he the wold loue neyther nother .

And if the Tyndale wold styffely stykke in this poynt & abide ther by / that his translacyon of idole in to ymage is good inough because idols be images : them syth the deuils be angels as in dede they be by nature , & euyll angels be angels styll / Tyndale maye at his pleasure translate the deuyl in to angell without any other addicion where so euer he fynd hym thorow out all the bible . And then shall he do theri as dyd a lyke lerned pste / the thorow out all the gospels scraped out diabolus & wrote Iesus Cristus , bycause he thought the deuyls name was not mete to stande in so good a place . And thus I thynke that euery child may now perceyue / with how litle lernyng & lesse wit , & leste trewth , Tyndale hath translated this word ecclesia in to congregacion in stede of chyrch / & that he hath so substancyally defended yt , that in the mayntenaunce of one false foly , he is now founden in twayne . For by a lyke maner as he falsely translated ecclesia in to the vnknowen name of congregacyon , in such places as he shold haue translated yt in to the holy knowen name of chyrch , & that he this hath done of a malicyouse purpose to set forth his heresy of the secret vnknowen chyrch , wherin is neyther good workes nor sacramentes : so is it now ꝓued that in the same wyse & of lyke malyce , hath he translated idoles in to ymages , vnder the colour of the lykenes of false goddes & deuylles , to make the scripture seme to reproue the godly ymages of our sauyour hym selfe & his holy sayntes . And now vsynge hym self in his translacyon in such malycyouse & erronyous fashyon : he complayneth that good men haue burned his euyll translated bokes , and wyll not suffer his heresyes to go forwarde .

In the ende of this chapyter Tyndale telleth me , that I haue ben so longe vsed in my fygures of poetry / that when I erre most , I do now as he supposeth by reason of a long custume , byleue my self that I say most trew / or ellys as wise peple when they daunce naked in a net , byleue that no man se them : euen so he saith that I thynke myn errours so subtilly couched , that no man can spie them . As for myn errours how subtilly they be cowched I can not tell / nor what other men 〈◊〉 spie I can not say . But surely if I coud spye any i my writing my self : I wold not faile both to confesse it to god & the world & forsake it . Now yf I be by custume of poetrye so blynded , that I can not se myne errours but wene that niy lyes were trew : yet yf I fynde any that can shewe them me , I shall sone amende the fawte . But I haue one good lykelyhed that I do not erre or lye after suche fashyon as Tyndale telleth me / in that yf it so were , Tyndale than that pryeth there vppon so narowly , and wyth suche egles eyen as he hath , were very lykely to spye it / namely syth I go so bare dawnsyng naked in a net . And I am sure yf he spyed any such thynge in me / he wolde of hys charyte be so god to me as to tell me . But surely he hath spyed none yet . For all that he hath hytherto pored out and called myne errours be but hys owne , & tourne vppon hys owne toppe euerychone . And as for my poetry verely I can lytell ellys , & yet not that neyther . But it had ben good for Tyndales sowle and a thowsande sowles besyde / that he had medled but wyth poetrye in stede of holy scrypture all the dayes of hys lyfe . For of poetrye though there sholde haue comen lytell good / yet coude there neuer haue comen suche an hepe of harme to crysten people , as he hath of hys blynde malyce brought in to this realme by his vntrue translatynge , and more vntrew construyng of the holy scrypture of god / moste malycyousely makynge the blessed worde of god , to serue hym for an instrument to dryue men to the deuyll .

And yet yf poetrye be as Tyndale calleth it , nothynge but faynynge and lyenge : then is he connynge inough and can I assure you make as mych poetry vppon any parte of scrypture , as any poete can in englande vppon any parte of Uirgill . And he vseth in his wrytyng mych playne poetrye , wherwith he daunseth na●ed not all in a net / but for the more parte so starke naked wythout any nette at all , that there is not the bredthe of a sylken threde to couer his poetry / of whyche poyntes of hys playne open poetry I haue shewed you some all redy , and shall anon shewe you many mo .

Then he asketh me why I haue not contended with Erasmus whom he calleth my derlynge , of all thys longe whyle for translatynge of thys worde ecclesia in to thys worde congregatio . And then he cometh forth wyth hys fete proper taunte , that I ●auour hym of lykelyhed for makynge of hys boks of Maris in my howse . There had he hyt melo saue for lakke of a lytell salte . I haue not contended wyth Erasmus my derlynge , bycause I found no suche malycyouse entent wyth Erasmus my derlynge , as I fynde wyth Tyndale . For had I fownde wyth Erasmus my derlyng the shrewde entent and purpose that I fynde in Tindale : Erasmus my derlynge sholde be no more my derlynge . But I fynde in Erasmus my derlynge that he detesteth and abhorreth the errours and heresyes that Tyndale playnely techeth and abydeth by / and therfore Erasmus my derlynge shall be my dere derlyng styll . And surely yf Tyndale had eyther neuer taughte them , or yet had the grace to reuoke them : then sholde Tyndale be my dere derlynge to . But whyle he holdeth such heresies stylle / I can not take for my derlyng hym that the deuyll taketh for hys derlynge .

Now for hys translacyon of ecclesia by congregatio / hys dede is nothynge lyke Tyndals . For the laten tonge had no laten word byfore vsed for the chyrche , but the greke word ecclesia / therfore Erasmus in hys new translacyon gaue it a laten worde . But we had in englysshe a proper englysshe worde therfore / and therfore was no suche cause for Tyndale to chaunge it in to a worse . Erasmus also ment none heresye therein as appereth by hys wrytynge agaynste heretykes / but Tyndale entended no thynge ellys thereby as appereth by the heresyes that hym selfe tea●heth and abydeth by . And therfore was there in this mater no cause for me to contende wyth Erasmus , as there was to contende wyth Tyndale wyth whom I contende for puttynge in congregacyon in stede of chyrch / excepte the Tyndale peraduenture meaneth that I sholde haue ben angry wyth Erasmus bycause that in stede of congregacyon in hys laten translacyon , he hadde not put in our englysshe worde chyrche .

As touchyng Moria in which Erasmus vnder the name and person of Moria , whyche worde in greke sygnyfyeth f●ly / doth merely to wche and reproue suche fawtes and fol●es as he founde in any kynde of people / perusynge euery state and condycyon spyrytuall and temporall , leuynge all moste none vnto wched / by whych boke Tyndale sayth that yf it were in englysshe , euery man sholde then w●ll se that I was then ferre otherwyse mynded then I now wryte : y● thys be trew , then the more cause haue I to thanke god of amendement . But surely this is v●●●ew . For god be thanked I neuer hadde that mynde in my lyfe to haue holy sayntes ymages or theyr holy relykes out of reuerence . Nor yf there were any suche thynge in Moria : that thyng coude not 〈◊〉 make any man se , that I were my selfe of that mynde / the boke beynge made by a nother man though he were my derlynge neuer so dere . ●ow be it that boke of Moria doeth in dede but ieste vppon the abuses of suche thynges , after the manner of the dysours parte in a playe , & yet not so farre neyther by a greate deale , as the messenger doth in my dyalog / whyche I haue yet suffered to stande styll in my dyaloge , & that rather yet by the counsayle of other men then of my selfe .

For all be yt that yt be lawfull to any man to mysselyke the mysseuse of euery good thynge / and that in my dyaloge there not onely those euyll thynges rehersed but answered also and soyled / and the goodnes of the thyng self well vsed is playnely confyrmed and proued : yet hath Tyndale by erronyouse bokes in settynge forth Luthers pestylent heresyes , so enuenemed the hartes of lewdly disposed persones / that men can not almost now speke of such thynges in so mych as a play , but that such euyll herers wax a grete dele the worse .

And therfore in these dayes in which Tyndale hath ( god amende hym ) wyth th enfeccion of his contagyouse heresyes , so sore poysened malycyouse and newfangle folke / that the kynges hyghnes and not wythout the counsayle and aduyce not of his nobles onely , wyth his other counsaylours attendynge vppon his gracys person / but also of the ryght vertuouse and specyall well lerned men of eyther vnyuersyte & other partyes of the realme specyally called thereto , hathe after dylygent and longe consyderacyon hadde therein , ben fayne for the whyle to prohybyte the scrypture of god to be sufferd in englyshe tonge amonge the peoples handes / leste euyll folke by false drawyng of euery good thynge they rede in to the colour and mayntenauns of theyr owne fonde fantasyes , and turnynge all hony in to posyn , myght both dedly do hurte vnto theym selfe , and sprede also that infeccyone farther a brode : I saye therfore in these dayes in whyche men by theyr owne defaute mysseconstre and take harme of the very scrypture of god , vntyll menne better amende , yf any man wolde now translate Moria in to Englyshe , or some workes eyther that I haue my selfe wryten ere this , ●ll ●e yt there be none harme therin / folke yet beynge ( as they be ) geuen to take harme of that that is good / I wolde not on●●y my derlynges bokes but myne owne also , helpe to burne th●● both wyth myne owne handes , rather then folkesh 〈◊〉 ( though thorow theyr own faute ) take any harme of them , seynge that ●se●he● lykely in these dayes so to do .

But now after this Tyndale handeleth me full vncourtesly / for he taketh awaye all my thanke and rewarde that I sholde haue had of the spyrytualtye . For he sheweth them that I wrote not my boke for any affeccyon that I bere to them / no more then Iudas bytrayed Cryst for any fauour that he bare to the hygh prestes , scrybes , and pharaseys : but that I dyd the tone as he dyd the tother , for the lucre that shold come therof / after whych he sayth that I so sore hungre , that the good man as my frend prayeth for me that I eat not to faste for chokynge .

Now yf the spyritualtye had ben aboute to haue gathered a dysme amonge them and geue yt me : Tyndale here had loste yt me euery peny . But god forgeue the good man and I do . For when he speketh of my lucre / in good fayth he maketh me laugh / and so I wene he maketh many mo to , that knowe well god be thanked that I haue not so mych lucre therby , that I stande in so grete parell of chokynge wyth lucre , as Tyndale standeth in daunger of chokynge ( god saue the man ) wyth the bones of buttred bere .

Now where Tyndale sayth I haue fayntely defended the thynges wherof I wryte : the thynges be stronge inough and lytle nede me to defend them / and also my purpose was not so mych to do that that neded not , that is to wyt to defende them / as to proue and make the people perceyue that Tyndale went aboute to brynge in heresyes amonge them . And that nedeth now as lytle / for Tyndale hath proued yt hym selfe .

And so lytle defence suffyseth for any reason that Tyndale layeth agaynste yt . And fynally yf I were faynte therin as Tyndale sayth : yet is a faynt fayth better then a stronge heresye .

But Tyndale yet for all this as a good godly father of his haboundaunte cheryte , sayth that he charytably dothe exhorte me in Cryste by the examples of Iudas and Balaam to take hede / and ferther he counsayleth me and my felowes full holyly to awake by tymes ere euer our synnes be rype , leste the voyce of oure wykkednesse ascende vp and awake god out of his slepe to loke vppon vs and to bowe hys earys vnto our cursed blasphemyes agaynst the open trewth / and to sende hys herueste men and mowars of vengeaunce to repe it , excepte we repent and resyste not the spyryte of god , whyche openeth lyght vnto the worlde .

These wordes when I redde them , semed me so pytthy & so persaunt , set and cowched in suche an hyghe spyrytuall fasshyon / that they made me mych to meruayle what Tyndale had spyed in me , and caused me to serche my selfe , to se whyther I had vsed any suche hygh blasphemyes , that the wykkednes therof were lykely to ascende vp in to heuyn & awake god almyghty out of hys slepe . But when I hadde ouer serched all my boke & ransaked vp the very botom of my brest / though I founde in the tone som prety peccaduliūs , such as I wyll not now confesse to father Tyndale bycause he sayth confessours kepe no counsayle : yet coude I fynde in good fayth neyther in my brest nor in my boke I thanke god any suche hygh blasphemyes as Tyndale so hyghly cryeth out vppon , excepte he call it an hygh blasphemye to call heresyes heresyes / whyche I take as helpe me god in my pore conscyence for none hygher blasphemy , then to call a gose a gose . Nor I. fynde no trewth that I neyther blaspheme or onys speke agaynste , excepte Tyndale mene by thys open trewth all the false open heresyes that hym selfe techeth agaynste Crystes holy sacramentes . Agaynst whyche kynde of false trewth I no more fere to speke / then agaynst the deuyll hym selfe that fyrste founde it out . Nor I can not fynde wherein I resyste the spyryte of god in openynge hys lyght vnto the worlde / excepte that Tyndale take for the spyryte of god , the spyryte of the deuyll of hell / and for openynge of lyght vnto the worlde , he take the lyghtesome lanterne of good ensample / by whych the worlde maye se for a shewe of holy matrymony , frere Luther and Cate calate hys nonne lye luskynge togyther in l●chery . Now to resyste thys deuelysshe spyryte my pore spyryte , for all Tyndales hygh ferefull charge is so lytell afrayed / that I call hartely to the spyryte of god to quenche the fowle fyrebronde of that helly lyght , & that so thorowly that the worlde se neuer any suche example more .

And now when that I had thus thorowly serched well my breste and my boke , and saw my conscyence clere , farre out of any suche cause of ieoperdy : then Tyndals terryble exorcysme made me not mych to trymble / syth heretykes haue of olde be wont alwaye to vse suche wordes . But my mind more gaue me to laughe at his hygh solemne charge / wh●rby he 〈◊〉 wyth hys straunge wordes enchaunt and charme 〈…〉 , and 〈…〉 wene he were walkynge downe to helle quykke , yf he made so mych as a mumme agaynst Luthers lechery .

Now where as Iudas and Balaam were not mete samples for me , that bere my self neyther for an apostle nor for a prophete : I myghte here laye them bothe well for playne samples to hym that bereth hym selfe for a ryghte apostle that were sent to preche a new fayth to thys realme , and a newe euangelyste to , that maketh with his false translacyon newe scrypture of hys owne / & very proprely playeth he the parte of Balaam to , in that he laboreth to brynge maledyccyons vppon Hierusalem , that is the catholyke chyrche of Cryste . And here myghte I brynge hym other samples in also very mete for the mater of menne mych lyke hym selfe , heretykes I mene of olde tyme & some of later dayes not longe afore Luther . And when I had rehersed vp a Ragmans roll of a ●able of heretykes , and shewed a shrewed sorte that cam to sorow for theyr synne : then myght I lo yf I had Tyndals spyryte , spet out scrypture apace & exhorte Tyndale agayn holily , to take hede & beware by tyme lest like heresies & like malyce brynge hym to lyke myschyefe . But as for me I can no suche facyon / and therfore lettyng all such hygh processe passe , of rype synnys , and ascendyng to heuyn and wakyng god out of slepe , and set hym on husbandry , and dryue hym to heruest wyth mowers of vengeaunce and repers of rype synnys , leuynge Tyndale in hys vengeable parables : I can no more I , but praye god amende hym and make hym a good man .

Agaynste Tyndales vsynge this worde senior and elder , and not preste .

Tyndale .

ANother thynge whych he re●●●eth is , that I interprete this greke worde presbyteros by this word se●io●● . Of a treuth seniour is no very good englyshe , though seniour and iunior be vsed in the vniuersyties : but there came no better in my mynde at that tyme . How be it I spyed my faute s●●s , longe yere M. More told it me , and haue mended it in all the workes whyche I seus made , and call yt an elder .

More .

Tyndale in thys chapyter at great length declareth f●r his excuse , four fayre vertues in hym self / malice , ignor●●●● errour , and foly . For in hys longe babelynge he hath neuer a clause but it falleth in one of these foure , and some one in all foure as ye shall se ferther in hys wordes folowynge .

Here in the begynnynge leste he sholde seme to haue lerned the knowledge of his ignoraunce by my monycyon : he sayth that he perceyued hys faute hym selfe byfore & amended it to . For where as for lakke of fyndynge a better englysshe worde he sayth that he had translated thys worde presbiteros in to thys worde senyours in englysshe : he hath now amended it and made it elders .

Here hath he done a grete acte , now that he hath at laste founde out elder . He hath of lykelyhed ryden many myle to fynde out that . For that worde elder is ye wote well so straunge and so lytell knowen , that it is more then meruayle how that euer he coude fynde it out . And one thynge I promyse you yf it were not worse then senior / he hadde not founde it yet . For thys is a lyke amendynge , as yf he wolde where a man were blynde of the tone eye / amende hys syghte by puttynge out the tother .

Thys word presbiter in the greke , as it sygnifyeth that thyng that men call a preste in englysshe / was called somtyme senior in latyn . But thys thynge that englysshe men call a preste , and that the greke chyrche called presbiter , and the latyn chyrche also and somtyme seni●r : was neuer called elder neyther in the greke chyrch , nor the latyn , nor the englysshe neyther . Now thys beyng thus / iudge good readers your selfe whyther of two bad , it was not better when he called a preste a senior , by whyche worde it was called somtyme at the leste wyse in some langage / then when he calleth a prest an elder , by whyche worde it was neuer called nor knowen neyther in one langage nor other . And so ye maye se how wysely by longe leysure and warnynge to , Tyndale hath amended hys mater .

Tyndale .

And in that he maketh heresye of it , to call presbiteros an elder : he condemneth theyr owne olde latyn texte of heresye also , whiche they vse yet dayly in the chyrche and haue vsed I suppose this .xiiij. hundred yeres . For that texte d●●th call it an elder lyke wyse .

More .

Se the synceryte and playnnesse of the good man . It is no mayst●y for hym to make proper solucyons , yf hym selfe maye make the obieccyons , suche as no man obiecteth nor wolde obiecte agaynst hym but hym selfe . For here he sayth that I make it heresie to call presbyteros an elder , whych thyng I neuer sayed nor thought . But I sayed & saye and trewth I saye , that Tyndale dyd in his englysh translacyon chaunge the word of preste in to senior of an heretycall mynde and entent to set forth his heresye / wherby he techeth that presthe● is no sacrament .

For as for this worde elder , how coulde I then charge hym wyth yt as an heresye / when he had not then translated elder but senior , tyll now that he hath by lenger laysour amendyd yt and made yt worse . So that ye may fyrste here se a pece of his playne poetrye double proued and double reproued / by whyche he layeth vnto me the thynge that I neuer sayed nor had at that tyme eyther cause to saye or occasyon to thynke vppon .

Nor nowe I saye not that yt is heresye , yf he haue as he saith translated synnes that tyme presbyteros by this worde elder : but I say he doth it with the mynde of an heretyque to set forth his heresye . For ellys I wolde not call it heresye , yf one wolde translate presbyteros a blok : but I wold say he were a blok hed . And as very a blokhed were he , that wold translate presbyteros an elder in stede of a preste , for that this english worde elder sygnyfyeth no more a preste , then this greke worde presbyteros sygnyfyeth an elder stykke .

And yet this thynge beynge so properly spoken as ye se : he sayth that the olde translacyon in latyne redde in the chyrch this .xiiii. hundred yere , calleth presbyteros an elder in lyke wyse . whych worde of Tyndale I wolde call a lye / sauynge that yt is more then a lye by a syllable .

Tyndale .

In the .v. chapyter of the fyrste of Peter , thus standeth yt in the latine text : Seniores qui in vobis sunt , obsecro ego consenior , pasc●te qui in vobis est gre●● Cristi . The elders that are amonge you / I beseche whyche a●●●● elder also , that ye fede the flocke of Criste whych is amonge you . There is presbyteros called an elder .

More .

Herd ye reder euer such a nother ? Is presbyteros here called an elder in the olde latine trāslacyon ? I fynde there this word seniores , where the greke chyrch vsed in theyr langage presbyteros . But as for this word elde● which Tindale sayth is the old latyne translacyon : he were lyke to pore out his eyen vpp●● latyne boke ere he fynde the englyshe word elder th●●● , 〈…〉 he cause yt to be wryten in hym selfe . And yet he layeth lyke textes .iii. or foure / some in the pystles of saynt Iohn , & some in the Actes , where he fyndeth in stede of presbyteros this word seniores and natu maiores / and alwaye he setteth thereto , lo here is presbyteros called an elder and an elder in byrth , as though this latine word seniores or natu maiores were this englysh word elder / where he sayth that presbyteros is called elder in the olde translacyon / whych as ye se muste nedes be false : but yf this englyshe worde be in that latine boke , and that he make englyshe latine and latine englyshe .

But now leste he call the redargucyon of his foly sophystycacyon / lette vs diuine for hym what he myght meane . He wyll happely say , that he meaneth that this greke word pr●s●yteros is in the texte that he hath alleged called by the olde translatour seniores , and seniores sygnyfyeth elder or elders . And so though this worde elder be not in the latine translacyon , yet syth that latine worde is there that sygnyfyeth in laten the same thynge that this worde elder sygnyfyeth in englyshe : we can not blame hym for translatynge presbyteros in to thys worde elder / but yf we blame in lyke wyse the translatour , for translatynge presbyteros in to this worde seniores .

Fyrste yf I sayed that the olde translacyon were in that poynt not so well as yt myght haue ben / I sholde not saye so alone . And Erasmus whom Tyndale calleth my derlyng , and whom hym selfe doth for all that in his own trās●acyon preferre byfore the olde / doth as well in the sayed pystle of saynt Peter , as in the sayd .xx. chapiter of th apostles Actes , not onely kepe styll the greke worde presbyteros , but sheweth also that the old translatour translated it not well , bycause he translated there thys worde presbyteros into thys worde s●niores , and in the tother place into maiores natu / but sayth that he shold rather haue kepte styll the worde presbyteros vnchaunged , bycause that worde is yt that sygnyfyeth authoryte wyth the grekes / where seniore● in latine sygnyfyeth but theyr age , and all were not olde as appered by Timothe . And for that cause in the sayed place of saynte Peter his pystle / saynt Hierome amendeth that olde translacyon and kepeth presbyteros styll , recitynge saynte Peter in this wyse : Presbyteros qui sunt ●n vobis obsecro ego compresbyter . wherein saynt Hierome was rather cont●●● to ioyne the latine coniunccyon with the greke word , and ●all y● compresbyter / then to chaunge that worde sygnyfyenge the 〈◊〉 in to seni●res and consen●or , sygnifyeng but the age . For amonge the latines senior sygnyfyed none other / but amonge the grekes presbyteri was the name that many tymes sygnyfyed rulers and gouernours .

Now yf we lyste we may yet excuse the olde translatour / whych how sone after Crystes deth he translated it who can tell ? And then when the latine chyrche had no laten worde for the crysten prestes all redy receyued & vsed / what blame was he worthy that toke that worde not contynually but amonge , whyche of all the latine wordes semed to hym to go nexte the sygnifycacyon of presbyteros at that tyme . And that was as hym thought seniores , in whych word yet the chyrch neuer folowed hym though / but though they redde his translacion openly in diuine seruyce , yet neyther in theyr wrytynge nor preachynge wold they take vp that worde and call a preest seniour / as appereth by the bokes and sermons of all holy doctours synnys .

And therfore Tyndale is wythoute excuse , whyche hath translated presbyteros by this englyshe worde elders / a worde vnknowen amonge englyshe men to sygnyfye prestes / and amonge whom this word preste was the proper englesh word well knowen , and had serued in that sygnifycacyon so many hundred yere afore Tyndale was borne .

Also go me to the place whych Tyndale alledgeth in the fyrste pystle of saynt Petre : Seniores qui sunt in vobis obsecro ego consenior pascite qui in vobis est grezem Christi . whych place I take for ensample . For where he layeth two places of the pystles of saynt Iohn , and one in the .xx. of the Actes / all be for one purpose , and this one place answerd , answereth them all : I saye therfore that Tyndale hath euen here in this his newe boke translated that same place wronge , and all the remanaunt in lyke wyse . And that wyll I proue partely by Tyndales owne wordes , whych in this boke folowe the translacyon of those wordes .

The elders that are amonge you , I beche whych am an elder also , that ye ●ede the flocke of Cryste whych is amonge you . There is presbyteros calle● an elder And in that he sayth fede Cristes flocke / he meaneth euen the ministers that were chosen to teache the people and to enforme them in godd●● worde and ●● saye persones .

More .

Lo Tyndale here shewed hym selfe that by this worde se●niores , be there vnderstanden the minysters that were ch●●● to teache peple . Then say I that yf this word seniores 〈◊〉 in that sygnyfycacyon there / Tyndale sholde not translate yt in to this englysh worde elder , whych sygnifyeth not the offyce but the age here . And this is I say trew / all were it so that Tyndales false heresy were trew , that holy orders were no sacrament at all / but a bare offyce . For yf yt were , but in a prophane comen storye , in whych men maye boldely be in the translacyon at myche more lybertye then in holy scrypture . yet were he a noughtye trans●atour that wolde translate a thynge in to suche a worde , as in the tonge in to whyche he translateth , is not vnderstanden in that sygnyfycacyon .

As yf percase a man wolde translate a latine cronycle in to englyshe , in whyche were mencyon made of some thynge done in London / yf he founde in that cronycle the aldermen called by the name of senatores , or peraduenture seniores : he shold yet in his englyshe translacyon call them not senatours nor elders neyther , syth neyther of those two wordes is in englyshe the name by whych the aldermen of London be knowen / but he muste therfore translate senatores and seniores also in to aldermen in his englyshe translacyon . And ferther yf he there founde this worde senatus Londinensis : he shold not transite yt in to this worde senate / but eyther into mayre and aldern●en , or percase ( yf the circumstaunce of the mater so lede hym to yt ) in to mayre , aldermen , and comen counsayle .

And therfore as ye playnely se / Tyndales defence of his translatynge presbyteros in to elders is as feble to stykke to , as is an olde roten elder stykke , & though yt were but in a prophane storye .

Now where yt is in the holy storye of Crystes gospell : what manner a thyng is it to translate elder in stede of prest , whych worde elder in engleshe was neuer so taken nor vnderstanden / and thus to do wythout necessyte , hauyng this worde preste so comenly knowen and so longe .

〈◊〉 d●th he not by the same re●●on chaunge bysshoppe in to ouerseer , & de●k●● in to seruer● both whych he myght ●●●all do as preste in to elder . And then muste he wyth his tr●̄●l●●yon make vs an englysh vocabularye of his owne deuyse 〈◊〉 . And so wyth such prouisyon he maye chaung chynne into 〈…〉 b●l●e in to bakke , & euery worde into other 〈…〉 , yf all Englande lyste now to go to 〈…〉 , and ellys not .

Now yf h● 〈…〉 that wyth suche chaunges he coude chaunge the names in to the better and shewe vs what the names sygnyfye / fyrste yf he sayed therein trew , he may tell vs those sygnyfycacyons in a tale bysyde / but he muste in englysshe let englysshe wordes stande in hys englysshe translacyon for all that . And yet were out of hys mouthe a ryght good tale euyll worth the herynge / for wyth a lytell hony he mengleth so mych poyson : that rather then to swalowe the tone downe wyth the tother / a man were yet mych better to forbere them bothe . yet setteth me Tyndale one myghty stronge bulwarke to fence in all hys felde , out of whyche he shoteth a sore shot of serpentyns / when he asketh me why the apostles vsed not this greke worde hiereus , or the interpreter this latyne worde sacerdos , but alwaye these wordes presbyteros and senior / by whiche was at that tyme nothynge sygnyfyed other then an elder .

Thys shotte shall I not now mych nede to fere . For lykewyse as from the shotte of a gonne a man were metely saufe , that had ere the gonne were losed , made a steppe asyde .xv. hundred myle from it : so syth I am stepped now fyftene hundred yere from the apostles dayes , and almost as many from the interpretours tyme , of whose ententes and purposes Tyndale asketh me now the why / I maye saye that I neuer talked so mych with them by mo●th , as to aske them the why / and therfore syth they haue not wryten me the why , I am not bounde to tell Tyndale the why .

But I aske of Tyndale no suche farre fet whyes , but a why of hys owne dede . And that syth we now haue , and hundredes of yeres haue had englysshe names inough for such orders of offyces as he translated out of latyn : I aske hym thys why / why dyd he translate the same by thys englysshe worde elder , whyche nothynge sygnyfyeth the same . And syth that in the tex●ys that hymselfe alledgeth , ●●yth●● the greke worde presby●er● nor the latyne worde seniores sygny●yeth in those places by Tyndales owne confessyon the age ●ut the offyce : why gyueth he than that englysshe wo●●e● elder in theyr stede , whyche sygnyfyeth not the offy●● 〈◊〉 age . For though Tyndale say ●hat 〈…〉 was at that tyme nothynge 〈…〉 , wherin as to ●●●chynge 〈…〉 syth hym selfe sayth n●● 〈…〉 ( and in that 〈◊〉 it happ●th hym to saye 〈…〉 dede that b●the pres●yt●ros & 〈◊〉 be in those places 〈…〉 ●y● the 〈◊〉 ● no● the age ( forels had yonge 〈◊〉 ●ppon the callynge togyther of presbyteros or seniores , ben lefte vncalled and had leue to byde at home ) what so euer moued in the fyrste gyuynge of the name the apostles or the interpreter to call the offyce by the name of presbyteros in greke , or seniores in latyne / it was Tyndales parte yet in hys englysshe translacyon to gyue it that englysshe name , by whyche the offyce ( were it holy or prophane ) was and longe had ben comenly knowen in englande .

And ferther yf no specyall name wolde haue contented hym : yet sholde he then haue called presbyteros the rewlers , gouernours , or offycers , or some suche other englysshe worde whyche sygnyfyeth offyce , rather then to call it elders / by whyche name there is in the englysshe tonge none offyce vnderstanden at all but onely the bare age .

And thus as touchyng chaunge of presbyteros in to seniores , and hys amendement in to elders , that is to wyt from euyll to wurse : ye se how well he hath quyt hym .

How be it yf he had had in the chaunge none other fawte but foly / it sholde haue ben longe ere I wolde haue gone about to fynde it . But now standeth all the mater in this whyche he slyppeth ouer / that he dyd it of very cankered malyce , by whyche he setteth forth agaynste Cryste and hys chyrche hys dedely malycyouse heresye / wherewyth he wolde make men wene that holy orders were no sacrament . And for that cause he asketh why that the apostles dyd not call the prestes hiereus in greke but presbyteros , whyche sygnyfyed he sayth nothyng but onely elders . And by this reason wolde Tyndale haue it seme , that the apostles dyd take the crysten prestes for no more consecrate persons then other crysten men , bycause they vsed a worde that had none holy sygnyfycacyon .

But Tyndale here though he wynke faste / is not yet so faste a slepe as he maketh for . For yf he lysted to lyfte vp his hed and loke vp a lytell ●he sholde sone se that hys argument were assoyled wyth the tother worde , whyche he hath also ●ysse translated of lyke malyce ecclesia .

For yf he wyll nedys argue that prestes be no persons consecrated , nor theyr order no sacrament , bycause the apostles called them presbyteri / whyche name had at that tyme none h●●y syg●●●ycacyon in the greke tonge where they toke it : 〈◊〉 Tyndale well inough ( sauynge that he wynketh and wy●●●●●● ) that it must nedys folowe , that baptysme were no sac●am●●● neyther , bycause the apostles and euangelystes called it baptisma , and in holy scrypture also named the holy company of baptysed people by this greke word ecclesia / of whyche two wordes baptisma and ecclesia neyther nother had in the greke tonge before , any holy sygnysyfacyon at all , nor sygnifyed there any other thyng than the tone a wesshyng / the tother a congregacyone or assemble of hethen paynem people . And thus is in thys poynte Tyndales playne foly and dissymuled falsed , well and playnely conuycted .

And now syth that the apostles and euangelystes dyd apply and approper that prophane worde ecclesia , to sygnyfy the holy company of crysten people sacred and sanctifyed in the holy sacrament of baptysme / and in lykewyse the prophane worde presbyteros to sygnyfye a certayne sorte of the same companye , specyally consecrate vnto god by the holy sacrament of order : he that now translateth those wordes in those places in to the englysshe tonge by any other wordes then such as in the englysshe tonge do sygnyfye those holy consecrate companyes , the tone segregate from paynyms by the sacrament of baptysme , the tother segregate fro the laye people by the sacrament of order / as Tyndale hath done bothe in the holy name of chyrche and prestes , callynge the tone but congregacyon , the tother fyrst but senyor & now that worse is but elder / yf he know it for no faute , then is it grete ignoraunce / yf he forgete to marke it , then is it grete neglygence / yf he perceyue it and dyssymule it , then is it grete falshed / yf he do it as Tyndale doeth , to make presthed seme none holy sacrament , then is it a very malycyouse pestylente heresye / lyke as yf he wolde in lyke maner and of lyke entent translate baptisma in to wasshynge , to make men wene it were no nother maner wasshyng when the preste crysteneth a chyld , then when a woman was●heth a ●●●ke of clothes .

He planteth in a grete processe to small purpose / bycause I sayd that Tymothe was not olde . And then Tyndale sayth that saynt Paule chose hym bycause he found in hym more wysdome , sadnes , and vertue , then in the aged t●en of that place . And Tyndale doeth well to tell vs so for ●llys wolde all the world haue went that saynt Paule h●● made a yonge man bysshoppe , bycau●●●●e wolde haue had hym wylde .

But the goth he forth and 〈◊〉 ●s a solemne processe , that god and necessyte is law●●●●e / and all this he bryng●●● in to proue that not onely yonge men but women also 〈◊〉 for necessyte mynyster all the sacramentes / and that 〈…〉 may crysten for necessyte , so they may for necessyte preache , and for necessyte consecrate also the blessed bodye of Cryste . And for to make this mater lykely : he is fayne to ymagyne an vnlykely case / that a woman were dreuen alone in to an Ilande where Cryste was neuer preached , as though thynges that we call chaunce and happe , happed to come so to passe wythout any prouydence of god . Tyndale may make hym selfe sure , that syth there falleth not a sparow vppon the ground wythout our father that is in heuen : Mat. 10 there shall no woman fall a lande in any so farre an Ilande , where he will haue his name preached and his sacramentes mynystred / but that god can and wyll well inough prouyde a man or twayne to come to lande wyth her , wherof we haue had all redy metely good experyence and that wyth in few yeres . For I am sure there haue ben mo Ilandes and more parte of the ferme lande and contynent , dyscouered and founden out wythin this fourty yeres laste passed / then was new founden , as farre as any man may perceyue this thre thousand yere afore / and in many of these places the name of Cryste now new knowen to and preachynges had , and sacramentes mynystred , wythout any woman fallen a lande alone . But god hath prouyded that his name is preached by such good crysten folke as Tyndale now moste rayleth vppon / that is good relygyous freres & specyally the freres obseruauntes , honeste , godly , chast● , vertuose people / not by such as frere Luther is that is runne out of religyon , nor by castyng a lande alone any suche holy nonne as his harlot is .

when Tyndale hath proued by this vnprobable case , that women maye consecrate the bodye of Cryste : them he lamenteth the myserable seruytude of the symple soules the pore sely women● by cause men wyll not suffer them to say masse , and ●yeth out vppon vs : o pore women .

How dyspyse ye them . The vyser the better welcome to you . Better is to you ●●●●o●d then a good woman .

O the tender herte of py●uouse Tyndale . He begynneth now by lykelyhed to loke towarde weddyng he speketh lyke a ●●e● . But he wyll I warraunt you no vyle person . But byca●●e he is a prest and hath promysed perpetually to lyue chaste / h●●yll none whore therfore , but rather wyll do as Luther 〈◊〉 done , wedde a ●onne and make here an whore

Then exhorteth he full holyly , and in manner con●ureth also the re●●●●● 〈◊〉 lorde god , that he shall rede ouer the two pystles of saynt Poule wryten to Timothe , wherof hym selfe also reherseth parte / whych who so euer rede , shall se therin both the false malyce of the man , and yet the workyng of god therewyth . For god hath caused Tyn●al● to putte in suche thynges as dyrectyly reproue his owne condycyons / and the deuyll hath made hym falsely to l●ue out those wordes which yf he hadde set in / muste nedes haue openly declared that all is heresye that euer he gothe aboute .

For saynt Paule there teacheth Timothe to beware and avoyde the companye of men of corrupte myndes , whyche waste theyr braynes aboute wrangelynge questyons . And Tyndale is in companye of none other / but such as Luther is and frere Huskyn and theyr felowes , that had wasted out theyr wyttes so longe about wrangelynge heresyes , that now they are fallen at laste to runne out of relyg●on , and waste out theyre braynes aboute wrangelyng wyues .

Saynt Poule also teacheth Tymothe , that he sholde not sharpely rebuke any man that were elder then hym sel●e , but exhorte hym as his father , though hym selfe was bys●hope and as Tyndale sayth an apostle to . Now Tyndale beyng neyther nother , nor hauynge any offyce so mych as among heretiques : letteth neyther sharpely to rebuke his elders in age , nor also to ieste and rayle vppon all states spyrytuall and temporall thorow out all Crystendome , and namely agaynste all relygyouse men , but yf they wyll runne out and wedde . And thus ye maye se wyth what frute Tyndale readeth saynt Paule .

Now wold I that Tyndale had putte in this place these wordes that he leueth out : Noli ●●gligere gratiam quae in te● est , quae data est tibi per pr●y●etiam , cum impositione manuum presbyteri . Neglecte not the grace that is in the , 1. Timoth. 4 whych was geuen the by prophecye , wyth the puttynge vppon the handes of a prest . And ●fterwarde in the .ii. pystle : 2. Timoth. 1. Admoneo te vt resuscites gratiam ●e● , qu●e est in te per impositionem manuum mearum . I warne the that thou ●tyrre vppe the grace of god , that is in the by the putty●●e of myn handes vppon the.

These wordes of saint Paule to Timothe i● those pystles whyche Tyndale exhorteth euery man to rede , and wherof hym selfe rehers●th also partes● do manyfes●ely reproue ●●ndales heresye , and clerely proue the holy order of prestehed a sacrament .

For these places shewe bothe the sensyble sygne of 〈◊〉 the apostles handes vppon Timothe in the makyng of hym preste / and also that god gaue hys grace therwyth . And the fyrst texte sheweth also after the greke ( in whyche it is wyth the puttynge vppon the handes not of a preste as the latyn is but of prestehed ) the power and authoryte that Timothe had in gyuynge the same grace forthe vnto other● whom he sholde after make prestes .

And these textes do so playnely reproue hym / that he is fayne to make a shamefull shamelesse shyfte to voyde them , suche as all the worlde may wonder at . For he sayth in his boke of obedyence , that the puttynge on of saynte Paules handes vppon Timothe was no sacramentall sygne / nor any other thynge but a custume of puttyng a mannys hand vppon a nother / as men do here vppon a boyes hed when they call hym good sonne / or as saynt Paule vsed to streche out hys arme to the people when he preched .

what auayleth it to lay manyfeste holy scrypture to Tyndale , that forceth so lytell so manyfestely to mokke it . Tyndale cryeth out that euery man myssecōstrueth the scrypture / and then hym selfe ye se what construccyon he maketh . Saynt Paule sayth playnly that Timothe receyued grace by the puttynge of hys handes vppon hym . And Tyndale letteth not to tell hym as playnely nay / and that he dyd but stroke Timothees hed and call hym good sonne , by lykely hede bycause he was but yonge . But how so euer Tyndale lyste to tryfle / these places playnely reproue and connycte hys heresye , and proue prestehed an holy sacrament .

Now falleth he to raylyng● vppon the holy ceremonyes of prestehed as shauynge & anoyntynge . And fyrste he sayth that yf onely shauen and anoynted may preche or consecrate the sacramentys : then Cryste dyd them not nor none of his apostles , nor any man in longe tyme after / for they vsed no suche ceremonyes .

Thys is a worthy ieste I promyse you . If melysted here to tryfle as Tyndale doeth / I coude aske hym how he proueth that saynt Peter was neuer shauen , syth I suppose he neue● saw hym / or yf he wolde put me to proue that he was shau●n , and therin when I coude fynde no playne scrypture for it● Tyn●ale wold not byleue me but yf I broughte forth hys barb●●● : I myghte tell Tyndale agayne that I were not boside●●yth the s●●●pture sheweth it not , to byleue hym that ●ayn● 〈…〉 cry●tened , tyll Tyndale brynge forthe hys godfather .

But these fantasyes of hys and myne bothe , go farre fro the mater . The trouth is that as god by Moyses taughte hys synagoge certayne goodly ceremonyes for the garnysshynge of the seruyce done to hym by his chosen people there , and for the styrynge of them to deuocyon : so hath he by hys owne holy spyryte whom he sent to instructe hys chyrche , taught them holy ceremonyes to be vsed about hys blessed sacramentes , to the honour therof and to the encreace of crysten mennys deuocyon , as in dede it doth what so euer Tyndale bable . Now be there amonge these , the shauynge and the anoyntynge of the preste . And so is there th apparayle of the preste at masse , and many other obseruaunces vsed in the same . Now yf some of the same were before vsed eyther amonge iewes or paynyms / yet Crystes chyrche borowed them neyther of the iewes nor the paynyms as Tyndale sayth , but toke them agayne of god . Now where Tyndale argueth that yf none maye consecrate the sacrament but onely shauen and anoynted , then Cryste nor any of hys apostles myghte not , bycause they were neuer shauen nor anoynted : he maketh a worshyppefull reason . For fyrste our sauyour Cryste the very inwarde anoynted preste , whom god hadde anoynted wyth the oyle of gladnes aboue all hys felowes : neded neyther ceremony nor sacrament as towchynge hym selfe . And as towchynge hys apostles , though Cryste vnto them instytuted sacramentes : yet he lefte many of the ceremonyes to the holy ghoste to teche , by whom they be instytuted and by whom they be in the chyrche contynued . Now is there none that maye cons●crate the sacrament , but yf he be fyrste made preste / and pre●te is there none made , but the ceremonyes of shauynge and anoyntynge are vsed in the makynge / though they be not the substaunce of the sacrament of order , no more then the cathecismes and exorcism●● at the crystenyng , be of the substaunce of the sacrament of ba●●ysme . And therfore though before those ceremonyes vsed , prestes myghte consecrate vnshauen and vnanoynted , when shauynge and anoyntyng was not yet instytuted : yet now can there none do so , syth there is no preste made vnshauen and vnanoynted . For yf they make any at wyttēberge by a bare choyse , wythout the gyuynge of the sacrament of holy orders by such as haue power to gyue them / they be no prest●● 〈◊〉 maye not consecrate at all , no more then maye th● 〈◊〉

Tyndale .

And seynge that the oyle is not of necessite : let M. More tell me what more vertue is in the oyle of confyrmacyon , in as mych as the byshoppe sacryth the one as well as the other / ye and let hym tell the reason why there shuld be more vertue in the oyle wherewith the byshoppe anoynteth his prestes Lette hym tell you from whence the oyle cometh , how it is made , and why he selleth yt to the curates wherewyth they anoynte the sycke , or whether this be of lesse vertue then the other .

More .

Tyndale here putteth many questyons to me , whyche he wyll that I muste nedys answere bycause the oyle in the makynge of a preste is not of necessyte / but surely these questyons be to the mater of mych lesse necessyte . How be it bycause I must nedys answere to men of suche authoryte , when the questyons be so solempnely put : I saye that yf a bysshoppe sacre the tone oyle and the tother bothe alyke , there is no more vertue in the tone then is in the tother . But I say that the oyle beynge all one / it is in the anoyntynge of the preste an holy ceremony / and in the anoyntynge of the chylde at confyrmacyon it is the mater of an holy sacrament / and in the anelyng of the sycke also , and euery of these two is one of the seuen , whyche the spyryte of god hath taught the chyrche of Cryste to knowe and vse for .vii. souerayne meanys of very specyall grace .

And therfore such dyfference is there , as is bytwene the halowed water standynge in the font before it be occupyed , or yf it were sprynkled vppon a man for holy water / and the same holowed water beynge occupyed in the crystenynge of a chylde at the tyme in whyche it is applyed thereto . For in that tyme besyde the goodnes that it hath of the halowyng / it hath a nother effectuall goodnes by goddys ordynaunce , whereby it is made a meane of purgyng the soule fro synne and● infusyon of goddys grace , and of enablynge the newe regendred creature to inherytaunce of heuyn .

And when Tyndale asketh me in any of these thynges the cause & the reason why : I myght as well aske hym the cause and reason why , in the nature and properte of any naturall thynge , beste , herbe , tre , or stone . whych yf I were so madde to loke that Tyndale were able to tell me : what had he more to saye , then that god had planted that nature and properte therin● whych answere shall also serue in these holy ceremonyes and ●a●ramētes / wherof the vertues be caused by goddes ordyna●●ce thorow his holy wordes , whereof the profyte is lymyt●● and po●●●n●d after such rate and degrees● as is to no man full & perfitely knowen but onely to god that gyueth it . And thus answere I Tyndale to these qstyones .

He asketh farther from whence the oyle commeth , and wherof yt is made : what is that any more to the mater , then from whens the water is fet that is put in to the fonte , or of what grapes the wyne was made that Cryst at his maundye turned into his blood

Now where he asketh me why the byshope selleth it vnto the curates wherewith they anoynt the sycke : thereto I saye that the byshoppe sendeth yt to the curates , bycause they shold therwith anoynte the sycke in the sacrament of anoylyng

But why he selleth yt to the curates yf he so dyd : therof can I not tell the cause / but yf yt were peraduenture bycause he wold be payed therfore . But I can tell well that the byshop selleth it not to curates nor no man ellis , but the curatis haue it sent them fre , but if they reward the brynger of theyr courtesy with a grote , which brynger is yet the archidecons seruaunt , & not the byshops . And this I can tell for I haue inquyred for the nonys . And by this can I tell as well that Tindale here bylyeth the byshope shamfully for the nonys .

Tyndale .

And when he affyrmeth that I saye how the oylynge and shauyng is no parte of the presthed : that improueth he not nor can do , and therfore I saye yt yet .

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It is very truth that I improue hym not in that poynt / but am well content that he saye yt yet , and I wyll saye the same . But I improue that he sayth euery Crysten man and euery woman to , is as veryly a preste as these that at the recepte of that holy order are both anoynted and shauen . This is yt that I improue / and this is yt that is a starke heresye though Tyndale saye yt yet .

Tyndale .

When he enserched the vttermost that he can : this is all that he can say agaynst me / that of an hundred there be not tenne that haue the propertees which Paule requyreth to be in them . Wherfore yf oylynge and shauy●ge be no parte of theyr preesthed : then euer more of a thousan●e .ix. hundred at the le●te sholde be no prestes at all . And quoth your frende wolde confyrme yt wyth an othe and ●were depely that yt wolde folowe , and that it muste nedys so be . Whych argument yet yf there were none other shyfte / I wolde solue after an Oxforde fashyon wyth concedo couse quentiam & consequens .

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Tyndale here maketh a tale , as though yt were a dyaloge or rather a tryaloge , bytwene hymselfe , the messenger , and me / sayenge that I in my dialoge dyd alledge , that yf ●ylynge and shauynge were no parte of theyr pr●●●h●d / then of a thousande prestes nyne hondred at the leste were no prestes at all , for lakke that ●f an hundred prestes , there be not tenne that haue the propertes that saynt Paule requyreth to be in them . And he sayth the messenger wolde afferme yt wyth a great othe / and that hym selfe wolde yf there were none other shyfte , soyle yt after an Oxforde fashyon , wyth concedo consequentiam & consequens . wherin he meaneth that syth he sheweth none other shyft , he graunted both twayne for trew / that is to wytte that excepte oylynge and shauynge be parte of the prestehed , ellys yt muste nedys folow that of a thousande prestes nyne hundred be none at all for lakke of good condycyons . And also he graunteth not onely that of reason yt wolde so folow / but also that yt is trew in dede , that for as so myche as oylyng and shauyng be not the thynges that maketh them prestes , and good condicyons they lakke / therfore they be no prestes at all .

But for as mych as he sayth that he wyll soyle yt so for lakke of other shyfte / he shall not nede so to do / for I wyll fynde hym a nother shyfte my selfe , and a playne contrarye shyfte , and soyle yt wyth nego consequentiam & consequens . For where as he graunteth bothe to be trew : I saye that they be bothe false . And where as he maketh as though they were myne owne wordes and the messengers with me : in good fayth I neyther remember them nor fynde them , all be yt that I haue purposely loked for them in all such places of my dyaloge , as me thought yt shold be yf yt were there at all . And therefore leuynge the poynt in questyone betwene vs , tyll I come to replye to his answere made vnto my dialoge / at whyche tyme I shall rede yt ouer of necessyte and muste nedes fynd yt yf yt be therin : I wyll i● the meane whyle not let if I sayed yt my selfe , to say that I sayd wronge . For by goddes grace neuer wyll I wyttyngly whyle I lyue defende the thynge that my selfe shall thynke vntrew , though yt hadde happed me to saye yt my selfe / but that I shall well and playnely reuoke yt and call yt bakke , not dissymulyng myn owne ouer syght . And wold god Tyndale wolde do the lyke & Luther to / they sholde then neyther so styffely defende so shamelesse heresyes as they do , nor make so shamelesse gloses of theyr owne formare wordes , when they se them so reproued that they can in no wise defende them / nor so shamefully chaung from worse to worse , as Luther hath agaynste his owne conscyence done in some one mater thryes .

To the mater I saye therfore , that yt is false that yf oylynge and shauynge be no parte of the presthed , then it must folow that of a thousande there be .ix. hundred no preestys at all . For I say that oylynge and shauyng be no parte of the presthed in dede / but be holy ceremonyes vsed about the consecracyon / lykewyse as in matrymony and baptysme both , be dyuerse holy ceremonyes vsed that be not the essencyall poyntes of those sacramentes . And therfore is yt false that yf oylynge and shauynge be no parte of the presthed , the prest is no preste for lakke of prestely vertues . For the holy sacrament of order is gyuen hym by the imposycyon of the bysshoppes handes vppon hym , in such wyse as the chyrche of Cryste vseth and euer hath vsed synnys the deth of Cryste vnto these dayes .

And that the grace by god appoynted vnto holy orders is geuen wyth that puttyng vppon of the handes / is twyes declared by saynt Paule in his pystles to Tymothe / & that so playnely that yt greueth Tyndales herte to here thereof , and maketh hym to make a mokke thereat , and saye it was but lyke as a man layeth his hande on a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne .

But the place is for all that so playne / that when Tyndale so playeth therwyth and so lawgheth thereat : he lawgheth but from the lyppes forwarde , and gyrneth as a dog doth when one porreth hym in the teeth wyth a stykke . And thus haue I proued the consequency to be false , which Tyndale graunteth for trew . Now to thet other parte , that is to wyt the consequente whych he graunteth for trew also , I saye that yt is false also . For lyke wyse as he graunteth that a preste is no preste at all for lakke of prestely condycyons : so myght he saye as well that a crysten man is not crystyned at all , for lakke of crysten condycyons . And bycause Tyndale wyll haue a preste nothyng but an offycer : yet after his owne false and fonde fashyon he sholde not graunte yt for trew . For then muste he saye that euery euyll offycer , mayre , baylye , constable , or shyryffe yf he mysse vse hym self in his offyce , were forthwyth out of offyce . And thus ye se that the consequente is false , whyche Tyndale also graunteth to be trew .

But all this bysenesse maketh he for hatered and dyspyte that he bereth to presthed , and to the dyuyne seruice that the prestes say , wherof hym self sayth none at all / & for the malyce that he bereth to the masse whych hym self neuer sayth / and vnto the holy sacramentes which the prestes minystreth , and whych Tyndale vtterly stryueth to destroye .

Agaynste Tyndales translatynge of charitas in to loue rather then into cheryte .

HEre maketh Tyndale a grete processe / and telleth vs that cheryte hath in englysshe speche dyuers sygnyfycacyons , somtyme loue , somtyme mercy , somtime pacyence . And what is all this to purpose ? Sholde he therfore leue out cheryte where it may conueniently stande ? By thys wyse reason we sholde neuer vse the worde in one sygnyfycacyon nor other / leste the tone sholde be taken for the tother . Now it lyketh hym to forgete that the cyrcumstaunces take awaye the dowte / whych thyng syth he layeth so often for hys excuse , he muste be content that it also serue for hys charge . For syth thys word loue that he setteth in the stede of cheryte , hath of hym selfe some dowte also , whyther it meane good or euyll but yf the cyrcumstaunce sumwhat set it out : what nede was it to put the indyfferent worde loue in the place of the vndowted good worde cheryte , there as the sentence well shewed that it sygnifyed neyther mercy nor pacyence but loue / and then the worde sygnyfyed that it ment good loue whych is expressed by cheryte .

Then sheweth he that ●he greke worde agape standeth so somtyme , that he muste nedys interprete it loue and not cheryte / as though I had founde a fawte wyth hym bycause he vsed thys worde loue in suche places as thys worde cheryte myght not conuenyently stande / where I fynde the faute in this that he putteth out cherite where it myght well stand , and that so often that he semeth to myslyke the name of cheryte .

Now bycause I saye that euery loue is not cheryte , but onely suche loue as is good and ordynate : Tyndale answereth me , no more is euery fayth Crystes fayth . That wote we well inough / but yet put by it selfe it comenly sygnyfyeth Crystes fayth in mater of the fayth / so that when we meane a false fayth , we be fayne alwaye to set some other worde therwyth , as when we say Tyndales fayth , Luthers fayth , frere Huyskyns fayth and such other lyke .

He putteth a nother ensample by thys worde hope , and sayth that euery hope is not a Crysten hope / and yet he must vse it & a thousande other wordes lyke , such as ben indyfferent and sygnyfye bothe good and bad / all whyche yf he sholde eschewe , he sholde he sayth translate no thynge at all .

who byddeth hym leue all such wordes out ? or who saith that he sholde neuer put in thys worde loue ? He answereth the thynge that no man layeth to hys charge / and the thyng that I laye to hys charge he leueth euer vnanswered . For go me to hys worde hope whyche is indyfferent , and sygnyfyeth as well hope of getynge the loue of hys lemman , as hope of rewarde in heuen for cheryte borne to hys enemy / though thys be thus , yet yf there were in englysshe a worde that sygnyfyeth none hope but a good godly hope , as cheryte sygnyfyeth no loue but a good godly loue / then were he an euyll translatour , that where the place in greke or latyn speketh of good hope , wolde not translate it in to that englysshe worde that sygnyfyed none other hope but good . And therfore it well appereth that Tyndale doeth not well , when there as the scrypture speketh of good loue , he had leuer translate it by the worde loue , that is indyfferent to bothe good & bad / then by the worde cheryte the sygnyfyeth no loue but good . Thys is it that I charge hym wyth , & to thys I wold haue hym answere onys / and not leuynge thys vntowched , walke and wander at large & neuer mete wyth the mater .

Tyndale .

yet sayth he farther : Agape and charitas were wordes vsed amonge hethen men ere Cryste cam , and sygnyfy●d therfore more then a godly loue . And we may say well ynow , and I haue herde yt spoken / that the turkes be charitable one to a nother amonge them selfes , and some of them vnto crysten men● Bysydes all this agape is comen to all loues .

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yet he is in hande agayne wyth agape often and bryngeth not forthe one wyse worde . For though thys greke worde agape sygnyfye loue indyfferentely good and bad : yet thys worde charyte sygnyfyeth no loue but good . And therfore in such places of scrypture , as agape sygnifyeth good loue : why sholde Tindale translatyng in to englysh , rather take this worde loue that sygnyfyeth no more good loue then badde / rather this worde charyte that sygnyfyeth no loue but good . This I aske hym yet agayne .

Now though this laten worde charitas was a worde vsed amonge the hethen ere Cryste cam / & though yt had sygnyfyed in laten at that tyme amonge them an euyll loue and a noughty : yet this englyshe word charyte neuer sygnyfyed amonge vs any other loue then good / not euen in that speche that Tyndale speketh of , that turkes be charytable among them selfe , & some of them to crysten people to / where yt sygnyfyeth yet rather pytye then loue . And therfore Tyndale muste in hys englysshe translacyon take hys englysshe wordes as they sygnyfye in englyshe , rather then as the wordes sygnyfye in the tonge , out of whyche they were taken in to the englysshe . And yet remember I not that charitas in the latyne tonge was vsed to sygnyfye euyll loue . And I saye to Tyndale yet ferther , that though thys englysshe worde cheryte had ben englysshe before the byrthe of Cryste , and had then sygnyfyed amonge englysshe infydelys an euyll wanton loue / ye though it had then amonge them sygnyfyed none other loue but noughty : yet syth it sygnyfyeth not that but the contrary now in our tyme , and so hath sygnyfyed longe before our dayes / Tyndale muste nedys in hys englysshe translacyon vse hys englysshe wordes in suche sygnyfycacyon as the people vseth them in hys owne tyme / and not in such sygnyfycacyon as they were vsed in of olde tyme , which the people haue chaunged and forgoten hundrethes of yerys ere he were borne .

For ellys he sholde make a gaye confusyon , yf he wolde in the maters of vertue and crysten fayth vse the olde wordes after the olde fasshyon / and take ●ides for nothynge but suche as it sygnyfyed ere Cryste came . Then where so euer he founde in saynte Austyne and other holy doctours persona patris , persona filij , persona spiritus sancti : Tyndale muste call them not the persons but the visours of the father , the sonne , and the holy ghost / & make men wene that they dawnce in a maske .

And thus yet agayne ye se to how lytle purpose this reason serueth Tyndale , that agape and charitas were wordes vsed amonge the hethen ere Cryste was borne .

Tyndale .

Fynally I saye not cheryte god or cheryte your neyghbour , but loue god and loue your neyghbour .

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This is a prety poynt of iuglynge / by whyche he wolde make the reader loke a syde that hym selfe myght playe a false caste the whyle / and men sholde not se wherin the questyon standeth . For he maketh as though I reproued that he hath this worde loue in his translacion in any place at all , where I neyther so sayed nor so thought . But the faute I founde , as in my dialoge I sayed playnely inough / was that he rather chose to vse thys worde loue then thys worde cheryte , in such places as he myghte well haue vsed thys word cheryte / and where the latyn texte was charitas , and where thys holy word cheryte was more proper for the mater then thys indyfferent worde loue . Thys was the fawte that I found . And therfore wherof serueth hys tryflyng betwene the nowne and the verbe . I let hym not to say loue thy neyghbour / nor I bydde hym not say cheryte thy neyghbour , nor good affeccyon thy neyghbour , nor good mynde thy neyghbour , ●● more then drynke thy neyghbour . And yet as he maye saye there geue thy neyghbour drynke / . so may he if it please hym saye , here thy neyghbour good mynde , bere thy neyghbour charyte .

Tyndale .

Though we saye a man ought to loue his neyghbours wyfe or his neyghbours doughter : a cristen man doth not vnderstande that ●e is commanded to defyse his neyghbours wyfe nor his neyghbours doughter .

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This mater is somewhat amended here by this worde , ought to loue . But ellys if Tyndale fall not to the cherytyng , but to the louynge of his neyghbours wyfe , or the louynge of his neyghbours doughter : I had as leue he bare them both a bare cheryte , as wyth the frayle feminyne sexe fall to far in loue , namely syth he sayth that prestes muste nedes haue wyfes .

But where of serueth hym this ensample . Dyd any man forbede hym to vse this worde loue . He maketh as though I forbode the worde vtterly / bycause I forbede yt hym where he sholde not vse yt but charyte . Thus cryeth he 〈◊〉 vppon all the chyrche / & sayth they forbede all 〈◊〉 , bycause they forbede the banys bytwene frerys and ●●●nes .

Agaynste 〈…〉 fauour in stede of grace .

Tyndale .

ANd wyth lyke reasons rageth he , bycause I torne charis into fauour and not in to grace / sayenge that euery fauour is not grace , and that in some fauour there is but lytle grace . I can say also in some grace there is lytle : goodnesse / as when we say he standeth well in my ladyes grace , we vnderstande no greatë godly fauoure / and in vnyuersitees there be many vngracyouse graces goten .

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Thys ys all that he sayeth for hys puttynge out of grace and settynge in of fauour . And I praye you consyder what cause hath he now shewede why he so sholde do . And yet his tytell of this chapiter is , why fauour & not grace , as though he wolde tell you why . And hath he now shewed you any cause at all / but thynketh that hys proper scoffynge is suffycyent to chaung the knowen holy namys of vertue thorow all scrypture , in to suche wordes as hym selfe lyketh . And now he pleaseth hym self wonderfully well , bycause he hath founde out so fetely that prety scoffe that grace sygnyfyeth somtyme no good / as when a man standeth well in his ladyes grace . But he seeth well that I fynde wyth hym the faute , for chaungynge grace into fauour , where the scrypture speketh not of the grace of my lady but of the grace of our lorde . In spekynge wherof all be it that goddys fauour is neuer but good : yet is in respecte vnto hys creature hys grace and his fauour not alwaye one / but he both fauoreth for his grace , and gyueth grace for his fauour , & fauoreth for his mercy / and yet his fauour and his mercy not bothe one , in respecte I saye to his creatures , though hys owne nature be so entyere and hole , that all that euer is in hym is all one . And yet where he putteth his ensample of standyng in his ladyes grace / bycause yt is yet but indyfferent , for that maye be good inough : he sholde haue made th ensample by ●●wde Luther & his lew● ladyes grace . And when he sayeth that in the vnyuersyte many vngracyouse graces be goten : he sholde haue made it more playne and better perceyued , yf he had sayed , as for ensample when hys owne grace was th●●● graunted to be made mayster of arte . And thus gracyon ●● hath he quytte hym selfe in puttynge out of grace .

〈◊〉 Tyndales chaungynge of confessyon in to knowlege , & penauns into repentauns .

Tyndale .

ANd that I vse thys worde knowlege and not ●●●s●syon , and thys worde repentaunce and not ●enaun●● in which all be can not proue that I gyue not the ry●●●● englysshe vnto the greke worde .

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Thys is playne vntrew that Tyndale sayth , as I haue playnely shewed all redy in the wordes chyrche , preste , cheryte , and grace / all whyche chapyters who so rede and consyder from the begynnynge , and aduyse well Tyndales wordes and myne , be he lerned be he not lerned that readeth them , yf he haue naturall wyt and be but indyfferent / he shall ( I dowte not fynde ) Tindale in these poyntes so clerely confounded , that he shall truste bothe hys lernyng the lesse and his wyt the worse whyle he leueth after . Besydes that he shall perceyue also malyce , hatered , and enuy , so stuffed in Tyndales harte / that all though he had greate wyt and lernyng bothe , yet must the myste of suche blynde affeccyons nedys blyndefelde them bothe .

Tyndale .

But yt is a farre other thyng that payneth them and byteth than by the ●restis . There be secrete pa●ges that pinche the very hertes of them , wherof they dare not complayne . The sykenesse that maketh them so impacyent is , that they haue loste theyr iuglynge termes . For the doctours preachers , were wont to make many diuisyons , distinccyons , and sottis of grace , gratis ●ata , gratum faciens , praeuenicus , & subsequens .

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Nay god he thanked they haue not lost these termys yet , and god forbede they sholde . For these termys of grace be no englyush termys / but termys necessarye for the trewe knowledge of goddys gy●tes & graces . But Tyndale hath indede loste them / from whose harte the deuyll hath 〈◊〉 all grace , saue gratia gratis data , and yet that to alm●●●e/●●yth whyche gratia gratis data all had he therof ●yche 〈◊〉 then he hath , he myghte go forth as he goth the strayg●● 〈◊〉 downe to the deuyll . For those 〈◊〉 graces and 〈…〉 god gyueth a man , wherof he maye make a m●●●r of 〈◊〉 or a mater of vyce as hym lyst to 〈…〉 them to 〈◊〉 , the man is mych the worse for them as 〈◊〉 , strength , lernynge , or wyt . Gratia grat●● facie●●s , is that grace by 〈◊〉 the man is acceptable to god . As the grace gyuen in y● 〈…〉 though it be to chyldren , and the grace with which in fayth , hope , and cheryte , man worketh good workes , watche , fast , pray , gyue allmose , and suche other lyke as god rewardeth in heuyn . Now for as myche as man can do no good but yf god begyn , and he is alwaye redy to begynne : therfore the grace wyth whyche god begynneth to set vs a worke , is called , gratia praeuen●ēs . And for as mych as we shold sone ceace to , but yf grace contynued wyth vs / as our eye sholde ceace to se , yf that we lakked lyghte : god contynueth his grace with vs to worke , wyth vs , whych is called gratia cooperans . And yet for as mych as he that well worketh wyth grace , deserueth of god by goddy●● goodnesse encreace of grace accordynge to the gospell , omni habenti dabitu● & habunda●it , Matth. 25 to euery man that hath there shall be gyuen , and he shall habounde that well bestoweth his talentes of grace and worketh well therwith : therfore the grace that god gyueth a man for the good vse of hys formar grace , may be called gratia subsequens . And fynally for as mych as grace perceueryng with man at hys ende , bryngeth hym to glory / whyche who so attayneth is then in suretye of stedefaste and vnperysshable grace and fauour of god : this fynall grace is called gratia con●i●n 〈◊〉 , that is grace that perfyteth the thynge .

Now syth euery man perceyueth well , that all be it that in god all is one grace , with whych he preuenteth our good workes ; and wyth whyche he helpeth them forth in the progresse , and whych addeth and maketh more , habounde , and wyth whyche he perfyteth hys creature in glory : yet fyth that in vs and our workes it is dyuersely consydered after dyuerse , respectys / and of eueryche of those respectys falleth necessyte for men in sco●●● oftentymes to speke / specyally for the reprose of those heretykes that wolde haue no dyuysyons nor dystynecyons , wherby the thynge sholde be made open and playne , but wolde blynde and begyle theyr herers ●yth darkenesse and confusyon : reason requyreth to gyue euery dyuers ●especte a dyuers name , a●onge them that must often syche thereof / e●cent that they sholde in an argument 〈◊〉 thyrde worde repete an hole ●●le , where one worde 〈◊〉 ●ppon may well and suffycyently f●r●e .

And therfore ye may● se that these be no iuglynge 〈◊〉 , 〈…〉 deuysed wyth good reason and of necessy●● . But 〈…〉 subtyle iu●●e● the deuyll / hath tau●●● these 〈…〉 Luther Huskyn , a●d ●●●ndale , to fall to such false iuglynge : that they labour f●re to iugle awaye , not onely those termys of grace and the very name of grace out of mennys earys / but also the byl●fe of all grace , and therwith the effecte of all grace clene out of mennys hertes / and frewyll and grace taken away , to make men byleue that there is nothynge at all but desteny / and so pretendyng lybertye , they put all in thra●dome / and pretendyng vertue , they dryue men to vyce / and pretendynge god , they dryue men to the deuyll . And thys is Tyndales iuglynge / whych bycause he wolde not were perceyued : to dyssemble hys false iugelyng and haue it taken for trouth , he calleth the playne truth by the name of iuglynge , as ye shall here by and by .

Tyndale .

Wyth confessyon they iugled , and made the people as ofte as they spake of yt , vnderstande shrifte in the eare , wherof the scrypture maketh no mencyon . No , yt is clene agay●ste the scrypture as they vse yt & preache yt / and vnto god an abominacyon and a foule stynkyng sacrifyce vnto the fylthy idole Priapus●

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This hygh godly spirituall man taketh for none abominacion at all , but can abyde well and hold very well with all , & not defende yt onely but commende yt also / that a nonne consecrate vnto god , shold runne out of relygyon , and do fo●le stynkyng sacri●yce to that fylthy idole of Priapus , that frere Luther bereth about to gather in his offerynge wyth / & that they shall both , and a great many such reba●des mo / shame fully shew theyr abomynable bychery , to the corrupcyon of the worlde openly . But he can not abyde in no wise that any man sholde so repent his secrete synne , that he sholde vnto his confessour shew yt secretely . This can Tyndale in no wyse abyde . And why ? For he wolde rather haue synne shewed in shamelesse b●stynge , whereby it myght encreace and grow / then shamefas●ely shewed in confessyon , where it myght be weeded out and caste away .

I purpose not here to fall in dys●ycyons wyth Tyndale for y● mate● / nor at euery lewd felowes blasphem● / to bryng the blessed sacramentes in questyon . For syth Tyndale can not hym self deuye , but that sayne Austayne , 〈◊〉 Hierom , saynt Ambrose , 〈…〉 , and other holy sayntes haue b●th vsed , 〈…〉 , and taken c●●essyon for a necessary 〈…〉 / & euery go●● man hath in hym selfe euer fou●● no lytle spyrytuall pr●fy●e and soule comfort therin : yt shall not now greatly 〈◊〉 what a new founden sorte of heretykes barke & baule therat .

And as for this worde knowlege is very farre from the greke word exomologesis / & as farre from the latine word confessio / and yet mych more from the very mater selfe , that is to wyt from the sacrament of penaunce . For bothe the greke worde and the latine , do sygnifye an openyng and a shewyng of the thyng / and the mater selfe meaneth a willyngly offered declaracyon of the secrete hyd synne / and this englyshe word knowlege is anthyguouse & doutefull . For as yt is a nowne / yt sygnifyeth but the knowynge of a thynge or vnderstandyng / as where a man sayth , this chyld hath yet no knowlege neyther of good nor euyll . And when yt is a verbe , or that yt is turned in to this worde knowlegynge / yet sygnyfyeth yt rather the not denyenge then the wyllyngely tellynge of oure owne faute , and namely of our owne offer . For that nowne knowlegynge and that verbe knowlege / hath in our tonge theyr proper place , where the faute is by some other layed vnto a manys charge / and where this laten worde agnosco or agnitio maye stande in the place yf they talked in latyne . As where we say of a stuberne bodye that standeth styll in the denyenge of his fawte that is layed afore his face / this man wyll not knolege his faute , or he wyll not be a knowen of his faute . And therfore is this word knowledge or knowlegyng not very mete nor very proper neyther for the greke worde nor the latyne : and leste of all for the mater / syth that confessynge and confessyon is the wyllyngly made declaracyon of our synne vnlayed vnto vs by any man saue our selfe . In whyche doenge though the penytente vse amonge wyth his confessour this word knowlegynge : yet is yt rather his wyllyng behauour that se●●●th the mater , then the propertye of that englysshe worde .

Now yf Tyndale wyll tell vs that confessyon and confessynge is drawne out of the laten , and then wyll aske me what englyshe worde had we for the thynge byfore : I wene we had byfore ●on● at all / but euer synnes the proper en●●●he worde hathe bene shryfte and shryuyng . For sauyng 〈…〉 goodnesse of god brought in that thynge wyth hys 〈…〉 of penaunce , whyche was brought in by the 〈…〉 were I wene farre of from confessynge of theyr 〈…〉 of theyr owne offer / and scantly wolde 〈…〉 they were layed vnto theyr charge & 〈…〉 Onely god hathe brought in wyth the grace of the sacrament , that men are so supled and made humble in herte , that they wyll wyllyngly go shewe them selfe theyr owne synnes to the preste , whom god hath there appoynted in hys stede / and there abyde the shame and the rebuke therof , and lowly submytte them selfe to such payne and penaunce as theyr confessour shall assygne them , and the same faythfully fulfyll in punysshement of them selfe for theyr synne .

But thys is it that Tyndale meaneth / he wolde haue all wyllynge confessyon quyte caste awaye , and all penaunce doynge to , as hym selfe sheweth by and by .

Tyndale .

And in lyke maner by this worde penaunce , they make the people vnderstand ●oly dedes of theyr enioy●ynge , with whiche they muste make satisfaccyon to godwarde for theyr synnes : when all the scrypture precheth that Cryste hath made full satysfacyon for our synnes .

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Thys is a greate synne lo , that euer any man shold take payne for his synne . Now though the scrypture precheth that Cryste hath made full satysfacyon for our synnes : yet wold I fayne that Tyndale sholde tell me where he fyndeth any one place in scrypture , that Crystes satysfaccyon for our synnes is in such wyse full , that he wyll there be no payne put vnto vs therfore . Let vs consyder hys owne wordes y● folowe .

Tyndale●

And we muste now be thankefull to go● agayne , and kyll the l●stes of our flesh with holy workes of goddes enioyn yn ge●a●d to take pacyently all that god sayeth on my bakke .

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Thys is well and holyl●●●●ken . But now let passe fo● thys ones holy Luther and hys holy noune wyth all theyr holy workes that they worke togyther , in kyllynge the lustes of theyr flesshe , in shewyng them selfe thankefull agay●● 〈◊〉 god .

I wyll aske Tyndale fyrste , whyther suche h●●● workes as god hath taught hys chyrche to be eni●●●●d , 〈◊〉 hy● by hys goos●ly father / be not enioyned vnto 〈◊〉 by god . If not , he taketh awaye all the 〈…〉 of father 〈◊〉 mother , prela●e & prynce , 〈…〉 any good 〈◊〉 to be done to goddys honour / 〈…〉 in all suche commaundementes , god commaundeth Tyndale 〈◊〉 euery man ellys to be obedyent , and accompteth theyr ●●●maundementes for hys owne .

yet yf Tyndale wyll no payne enioyned but by goddes owne mouth / nor suffer nothynge layed vppon hys bakke but yf god trusse vp the pakke hym selfe and wyth his owne handes , & bynde it vppon hys bakke wyth a paksadle : then wyll I yet wyt of Tindale whyther god do not enioyne any such holy workes , or laye any such burden vppon the bakkes or repentant synners for the synnes that be passed , & wherof he is al● 〈◊〉 ●epentaunt .

If Tyndale answere no : then shall we put hym in remembraunce of many places in holy scrypture / as well in Exodi , where he promyseth to punysshe the people for theyr idolatry notwythstandynge theyr repentaunce and hys remyssyon to / as in the seconde boke of kynges , 2. Regum . 12 where he punysshed kynge Dauyd for hys manslawghter and aduowtry notwythstandynge hys repentaunce / & many places besyde .

Now yf he graunte that god punyssheth the synne notwythstandynge the repentaunce of the penytent , and the remyssyon of his dyspleasure : then graunteth he and so must he graunte , that all be it one droppe of Crystes precyouse blode had ben suffycyent to satysfye for all the synnys of this whole worlde / and for all the payne also that were in any wyse dew to the same : yet hath it not pleased hym so to order it . But leste that such shorte forgyuenes , as well of all the payne as of the dyspleasure of god , & of the dedelynesse , or as men myghte saye of the damnabylyte belongynge to the mortall offence / myghte make men waxe the worse , and set mych the lesse by synne : he forgyueth at the repentynge and by the shryfte and absolucyon his hygh indygnacyon , wheruppon foloweth the perpetuall banysshement from the syghte of his face , and fruycyon of hys glorye into th eternall turment of helle / but he leueth ordynaryly some temporall payne to be sustayned for the euyll acte passed / and that to be suffered eyther here by good workes of penaunce doyng , or other satysfactory paynes or good workes eyther in this world here or after thys worlde in purgatory / but yf they be by other ●●lkys good dedys done for them thorow goddys goodnes releued . And thys I saye as by good authorytees appereth our lorde doeth ordynaryly / not forbarrynge hys absolute mercyfull power , wherby he maye do when he wyll what he wy●●●

Now yf Tyndale graunte as he nedys muste , that not wythstandynge the repentaunce and the remys●yon both / & Crystes satysfaccyon also for theternalyte of the payne , and full restytucyon to goddes fauoure / yet there remayneth a temporall payne , or by good holy workes other satysfaccyon for the same : then is it not agaynste all scripture ( as Tyndale sayth yt is ) nor agaynst any parte therof neyther , that men shall wyth penaunce doynge endeuour themself to satysfye for that payne / syth yt is not goddes ord●●●● pleasure that his passyon shall serue euery man for the ●●ty●fa●cyon of that payne , bycause yt accordeth not wyth his ordynary iustyce / leste the fere of all payne vtterly taken awaye● , men were lykely to make lytle force how boldely they fall to synne .

And then yf yt be well done that a man for his synne , willyngly punyshe hym selfe : why maye he not mekely submyt his wyll to the counsale of his confessour , and take penaunce at his hande .

Tyndale .

And yf I haue hurte my neyghbour , I am bounde to shryue my self vnto hym , and make hym amendes yf I haue wherewyth / or yf not , then to aske hy● forgyuenesse / and he is bounde to forgyue me . As for theyr pen●●nce the scrypture knoweth not of .

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He neuer bryngeth in a good worde but for an euyll purpose . He sayth here very well concernynge our duty toward our neyghbours . But he saythe malycyousely to make vs wythdraw our dutye towarde god , for the satysfaccyon of the temporall payne that is dew for our synne , after the restytucyon to goddes fauour , and theternalyte of the payne forgyuen . ●nd that payne god hath not ordeyned of comen course to be satysfyed , by the onely merytes of Crystes passyon / but yf mennys workes wrought with his grace beadded therunto .

Tyndale .

As for theyr pena●nce , the scrypture knoweth not . The greke hath metanoia and metanoite , repentaunce and repente , or forthynkyng and forthynk / as we saye in englyshe , yt forthynketh ●e or I forthynke , and ● repent or yt repe●teth me , and I am sory that I dyd .

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Tyndale herebereth vs in 〈…〉 the scrypture ●peketh not of penaunce / bycause hym selfe geueth this 〈◊〉 worde a nother englyshe name . And bycause that Ty●●ale . calleth yt forthynkynge and repentaunce : therfore all englyshe men haue euer hetherto , myssused theyr own langage in callynge the thynge by the name of penaunce .

Now as for the worde penaunce what so euer the greke worde be : yt euer was and yet yt is lawfull inough ( so that Tyndale geue vs leue ) to call any thynge in englyshe by what worde so euer englysh men by comen custume agre vppon . And therfore to make a chaung of the englyshe worde , as though that all Englande shold go to scole wyth Tyndale to lerne englyshe / is a very frantyque foly .

But now the mather standeth not therin at all . For Tyndale is not angry wyth the worde but bycause of the mater . For this greueth Luther & hym / that by penaunce we vndrestande when we speke therof so many good thynges therin / & not a bare repentyng or forthynkyng onely , but also euery parte of the sacrament of penaunce , confessyon of mouthe , contrycyon of herte , and satysfaccyon by good dedis .

For yf we called it but the sacrament of repentaunce , and by that worde wolde vnderstande as mych good therby as we now do by the worde penaunce : Tyndale wold be than as angry wyth repentaunce as he is now wyth penaunce . For he hateth nothyng but to here that men shold do any good .

we haue for our pore englysshe worde penaunce , the vse of all englysshe men syth penaunce fyrste beganne amonge them . And that is authoryte inough for an englysshe word / excepte Tyndale wyll bynde vs to fetche authoryte of reason for euery worde of euery langage , out of Albert de modis significandi / bycause that frere Luther , frere Huyskyn , and frere Lamberte , haue so sore se● theyr study vppon Alberte de secretis musierum . And yet yf he wyll nedys prece vppon vs therewyth : we maye saye that we take in penaunce of the latyne worde penitentia , whyche the chyrche vseth for the same sacrament / or we maye saye that the worde penaunce is deryued and commeth of the worde payne , whyche bothe in harte , in worde , and in dede , the penytent sholde indeuour hym selfe 〈◊〉 conceyue and sustayne for his synne . But this is it that Tyndale so sore doth abhorre . For he consequentely sayth .

Tyndale .

So now the scrypture sayth repent or set yt forthynke you , and come and by● se●e the go●●●ll or glad tydynges that is broughte you in Cryst / and so shall all befor 〈…〉 ben● forth : sy●e a new lyfe .

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Here semeth a godly thynge , and is in dede very deuelysshe . For the wordes that be spoken to the hethen to come to crystendome / in th entre wherof at baptysme they be new regendred to god , and clensed clene & purged from all spottes : these wordes draweth Tyndale to them that be crystened all redy , & kepe theyr bylefe styll , and yet fall into dedely synne agayne . For whose reconcylyacyon agayne to god , our lorde hath of hys goodnesse instytuted the sacrament of penaunce / wythout whyche they that after baptysme fall agayne to synne , do lese the frute of theyr baptysme yf the tyme serue them to take it .

And therfore sayth holy saynt Hierom , that the sacrament of penaunce is the borde vppon whyche a man geteth to londe and saueth hym selfe after the shyppewrake . whyche wordes of hys , Luther in hys boke of Babiloni●● sore dysprayseth . For saynt Hierome sheweth that the sacrament of baptysme is the shyppe , and was fygured by the shyppe of Noe , out of whyche there was no man saued . And when a man breketh the shyppe of hys baptysme in the storme of tentacyon , and falleth into the depe see of synne : then hath he yet hys remedy prouyded by god , yf he catche holde vppon the borde of the salte sacrament of penaunce & so swymme / and god wyll helpe whyle he laboreth hym selfe to lande . But Luther and Tyndale wolde haue vs wene that after baptysme there nedeth no more but repent / and by and by all is gone agayne and clene wasshed awaye , synne & payne eternall and temporall and all togyther / and that man in lyke case as when he came fyrste fro the fonte .

But who ●o consyder well the ●ordes of saynt Poule in the syxte chapyter vnto the Hebrewes , shall fynde it farre vnlyke / where saynt Paule sayth in thys wyse : Hebre. 6 It is impossyble that they whyche haue ben ones illumyned , and haue tasted the heuenly gyfte , and haue ben made per●eners of the holy goost , and haue also tasted the good worde of god and the powers of the worlde to come , & then are slyden downe : sholde be renewed agayne by penaunce , crucyfyeng agayne to them self the sonne of god , and hauyng hym in derysyon .

Here sheweth thys blessed apostle Poule that the dedely synne commytted after baptysme / putteth a man in that case , that it shall be very harde ( for so is impossyble somtyme taken in scrypture ) by penaunce to be renewed agayne / that is to wyt to come agayne to baptysme or to the state of baptysme , in whyche we be so fully renewed , and the olde synne so fully forgyuen , that we be forthwyth in suche wyse innocentes , that yf we dyed forthwyth , there were neyther eternall payne nor temporall payne appointed for vs , that is to wyt neyther helle nor purgatory . But that dedely synne commytted after baptysme / is very harde by the sacrament of penaunce , confessyon , contrycyon , and greate payne taken to , to brynge vs agayne in the case , that the temporall payne dew therfore in purgatory , shall be worne all out by our penaunce done here . In all whyche thynges we neuer exclude the specyall pryuylege of goddys absolute mercy . For by hys myghty mercy the thynge that is impossyble to man , is not impossyble to god / as our sauyour sayth in the gospell of Mathewe . Mat. 19 But I speke of the ordynary course of hys comen ordynaunce , in whyche is excepted also the prayours and good dedys / wyth whiche any man is besyde hys owne penaunce holpen and releued wyth the good dedys of other mennys cheryte , or the spyrytuall treasour of Crystes chyrche vppon good cause applyed , conuenyently towarde the redemynge of hys temporall payne . But ellys I saye by the authoryte of saynt Poule in thys place / that it shall be very hard for a man by penaunce wrought in grace , to be restored agayne to the state of baptysme clere from all payne dew for the synne .

For syth the sacrament of baptysme whyche regendreth vs and maketh vs new creaturys , doth not so fully apply the passyon of Cryste for our satysfaccyon , that it so dyschargeth vs from all the payne of synne , but that we sustayne yet euery man for hym selfe the pa●nefull twych of bodely deth : we maye well byleue the apostle in thys place , that the payne temporally dew to our actuall synne commytted after baptysme , is not so sone worne out and payed by penaunce , but that it is as saynt Poule sayth , a thynge very harde to do . For the spyrytuall creature whyche baptysme begeteth and createth of new : penaunce fyndynge by synne agayne all to frus●hed , plastereth and patcheth vppe and maketh mych wo●●e to cure the wounde and brynge it to a scarre .

●●●ude for my parte be very well content , that synne & pay●● and all were as shortely gone as Tyndale telleth vs . But I were lothe that he deceyued vs yf it be not so . And therfor● to the entent it may the better appere that penaunce is necessary , and that to retourne to god and clene to be forgyuen , is not so lyght a thynge as Tyndale maketh it / but that the chyrche of Cryste appoyntyng payne for the synne , and not a bare forethynkynge or repentaunce as Tyndale wolde haue it , is therein taughte by the holy spyryte of god : let euery man consyder in what wyse the prophete Ioell descrybeth the maner , wyth whyche man sholde retourne to god agayne after synne . The lorde sayth , Iche● 2. retourne to me wyth all your harte in fastynge , in wepynge , and weylyng . Teare your hertes and not your garmentes , and retourne to your lorde god . For he is benygne and mercyfull , pacyent , and plentuouse of mercy , and redy to forgyue synne .

Tyndale .

And yt wyll folow yf I repente in the herte / that I shall do no more so wyl●lyngly and of purpose .

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In these few wordes there are many doutes . Fyrste how Tyndale taketh repentynge in the harte / whether he meane that who so repenteth in his harte shall no more do so agayne wyllyngly and of purpose , as longe as he so repenteth , or ellys that who so repent onys in his harte , shall neuer ceace to repente / or though he do , shall neuer yet do more so wyllyngly and of purpose whyle he lyueth . And yf he meane in the fyrste manner , his wordes be lytle to purpose . For yf he graunte that though he repent at one tyme , he may ceace to repente at a nother , and then do as euyll as he dyd , and be as euyll as he was : then had I as leue that he sayed y● man whych onys repenteth , wyll do so no more as long as he doth so no more , and wyll be good styll tyll he be nought agayne

Now yf he meane in the secunde manner , that who so repenteth onys in his herte , can neuer after ceace to repente as long as euer he lyueth / or though he ceace to repent shall yet as longe as euer he lyueth , neuer wyllyngly and of purpose fall to synne agayne : them eyther of all that fall to synne agayne , that is to wyt of all cryst●● people allmoste , there was neuer none that euer repented in ●arte / in 〈◊〉 who so euer haue onys repented in his harte , all the 〈◊〉 that euer he doth after he doth none of them wylly●●●● / or at the lefte he doth them not of purpose , but 〈…〉 by chaunce & myssehappe , ere euer hym selfe ●ew●re therof at aduenture sodaynly .

Now yf he saye that neuer any whych do synne agayne , dyd hartely repente byfore / and then that he requyre●● 〈◊〉 then herty repentaunce of man for his reconcylyacyon to god : he preacheth vs no gospell nor telleth vs no glad tydynges , but the heuyeste tydynges that euer man tolde . For then he telleth vs playne that of all cristen people there is almost none that standeth in state of grace lenger then the lakke of reason excuseth the defaute of his dede / or that the lakke of lyfe leueth hym no tyme to synne agayne after his repentaunce . For we playnely se that such as repent fall agayne to synne / and so by hym they neuer so repented that euer they were reconcyled agayne to god in all theyr hole lyfe . And then were there also mych doute of theyr deth . For though yt be good in some case , yet were yt not good alwaye that euery man were ouer bolde vppon the sodayne grace that the these gate at laste , that honge on the crosse at Crystes ryght hande .

And yf Tyndale wene to make the mater more easy , bycause he sayth he that repenteth in harte wyll do so no more , meanynge that he wyll no more fall to that kynde of synne : this wyll not serue hym . For he falleth out of goddes fauour and the state of grace by the commyttyng of any other synne that is vppon his damnacion forboden . And therfore yf harty repentaunce be able for euer to kepe hym from one kynde / yt muste be able to kepe hym from euery kynde of lyke dedelynesse , or ellys yt suffyseth not .

Now to the tother poynt . If Tyndale thynke to ease all the mater by this that he sayeth not , that he whyche repenteth in harte shall do so no more / but that he shall do so no more wyllyngly and of purpose : then ryseth there a nother doute what he calleth wyllyngly and of purpose .

He hath as yt semeth some other vnderstandynge of this worde wylly●gly , then other men haue . we saye that yf he do yt not wyllyngly / he synneth not at all yf his wyll no●hynge do therein at all ; except yt depende vpon some other synne of hym selfe done wyllyngly byfore / as where a man synfully falleth in dronkenesse or in fransye , and then dron●e● or frantyke doth harme / or where as one man geueth other occasyon of ruyne , as Tyndale dothe , when men be 〈◊〉 here wyth his bokes , and after damned for his here 〈◊〉 , such men peraduenture as he neuer knew / and yet fallen all th●●● dethys both of body and soule in Tyndales nekke . For as 〈◊〉 sa●nte Austayne sayeth / the heretyke that is a teacher 〈◊〉 a ●etter forth of heresyes , though he be depeda●●●● in hell ●●●ll neuer ye● knowe the vttermoste of hys payne tyll the daye of dome . For as many men as byfore the day be damned for his heresyes : shall e●er as they come to hell more and more encreace his payne .

But ellys I saye , where a man hath no wyll in the dede nor in the occasion therof / there is he as I thynke no partener in the synne . I wote not what Tyndale meaneth by wyllyngly and of purpose . For he is wonte to reken as though there is nothyng done willyngly that is done of frayletye / nor I can not tell what he calleth purpose / how longe tyme serueth after his rekenyng to make yt done of purpose .

But this I wote well , allbe yt that there be degrees & circumstaunces that aggreue the synne & make it more weyghty / as when yt is in the mynde longe contynued , & done of pure malyce , and such other thynges : yet yf these lakke so the damnable dede that god hath forboden to be done in dede , by hym that is not agaynste his wyll forced there vnto / this ca●● we wyllyngly done , & saye that he synneth dedely that so doth , all though he neuer purposed him selfe longe byfore vppon yt . As yf a man mete a nother and kyll hym s●●enly for an angry worde / or mete a mayden sodaynly and so de●●ore here this wolde I call wyllyngly , but yf she were so stronge or had so mych helpe that she rauyshed the mān●s 〈◊〉 and dysuowred hym by force .

Now such thynges as these be , we dow●e not but the folke haue fallen to agayne after repentaunce and after penauns to / and such as haue ben by the sacrament of penaunce res●●●ed vnto the state of grace . And syth that these be damnable , whyther they be byfore purposed or no : therfore yf is partely false partely folysh that Tyndale sayth , that who so repent in herte shall neuer do so more wyllyng●● and of purpose / syth he that hathe repented 〈◊〉 harte may do so agayne wyllyngly and of purpose to / & he that dyd 〈…〉 ●sed purpose , doth yt yet for all that 〈…〉 he do yt wyllyngly .

And for conclusyon though yt may be say●● 〈◊〉 good men of good mynde in exhortacyon in perseueraū●● 〈◊〉 good workes , agaynst the 〈◊〉 of such as 〈…〉 agayne , that they 〈…〉 lyghtenes geueth 〈…〉 to thynke and saye yet to put ye for a rule and 〈…〉 as Tyndale doth , that who so repenteth onys in ha●te ●●all 〈…〉 wyllyngly & of purpose / & that they that synne 〈…〉 lyngly and of purpose dyd neuer repent in harte , is very ●alse doctryne & a very playne heresye .

Tyndale .

And yf I beleued the gospell , what god hath done for me in Criste : I shold surely loue hym agayne , and of loue prepare my selfe vnto his commaundement .

More .

It is vndowtely a very good occasyon to moue a man to loue god agayne , when he beleueth the loue that god hath to hym , and the thynges that of very loue god hath done for hym . But yet it is not trew that Tyndale sayth , that euery man whyche byleueth thys loue , doeth so loue god agayne , that of loue he prepareth hym selfe vnto goddys commaundementes . I dare say that saynt Peter loued hym well / and yet he bothe forsoke hym and forsware hym to . But a man that well byleued sholde peraduenture prepare hym to goddys commaundementes , yf neyther the worlde , the flesshe , nor the deuyll drewe hym bakke / nor suche heretykes worse yet than all ●●re , 〈◊〉 the r●te of ryght bylefe out of hys harte . And 〈◊〉 standen the wordes of Tyndale wyth Luthers holy doctryne , whyche he precheth agaynste the lybertye of mannys fre wyll / wherof yf man haue none , as theyr heresye techeth : then how can it be trewe that a man can of loue prepare hym selfe to the commaundementes of god ?

And fynally yf it be trew that Tyndale sayth / that is to 〈◊〉 th●● yf he beleued the gospell he sholde surely prepare hym selfe to the commaundementes of god / and then yf thys be trew 〈◊〉 as in dede it is , that he that doeth ( as Tindale doeth ) enfeete hys neyghbours wyth dedely poysened heresyes agaynst the blessed sacramentes , & therby maketh theyr bodyes be burned in erthe wyth hys bokes , and theyr soul ys burned in helle wyth hys heresyes , is the most tray●●rouse 〈◊〉 of goddys commaundementes that can be 〈…〉 very clerely that Tindale byleueth not 〈◊〉 gospell 〈◊〉 all / and surely no more he doeth .

And now cometh he and sayth , that I knowe that all y● 〈…〉 for hys defence in the chaunge of chyrch , preste , 〈…〉 , penaunce , and suche other is trew : bycause 〈…〉 as he ●ayth the greke afore hym / where as I by 〈…〉 knowledge as I haue of greke , latyn , and of our owne 〈…〉 tonge togyther , knowe hys defence dothe 〈…〉 . And that haue I so clerely proue● / that to the 〈…〉 of bothe hys 〈◊〉 and hys ●oly , there shall not greately nede the knowlege of th●● tonges nor twayne neyther / but an indyfferent reader that vnderstandeth englysshe , and hath in hys hed any reason or naturall wyt . For all be it that the more lernynge the reder hath , the more madnesse he shall perceyue in Tyndales defence of these thynges afore remembred : yet he that hath wyt and no lernyng at all , shall clerely perceyue inough●

And to that entent onely haue I taken the labour 〈◊〉 answere hys defence , to make it open to lerned and vnlerned bothe , that he bryngeth to the mater after hys two 〈◊〉 musynge thereuppon , ●eyther insyghte of any substancyall lernynge , nor yet any profe of reason or naturall wytte , but onely a rasshe malyciouse frantyke brayde , furnysshed with a bare bolde assercyon and affyrmacyon of false poysoned heresyes . For sauynge to make thys appere / I neded not to touche those poyntes at all . For euery man well knoweth that the entent and purpose of my dyaloge was none other , but to make the people perceyue that Tyndale chaunged in his translacyon the comen knowen wordes to th entent to 〈◊〉 a chaunge in the fayth . As for ensample that he chaunged the worde chyrche in to thys worde congregacyon , bycause he wolde brynge it in questyon whyche were the chyrche / an● set forth Luthers heresye that the chyrch whyche we sholde byleue and obaye , is not the comen knowen body of all crysten reames remaynynge in the fayth of Cryste , not falle● of nor cut of wyth heresyes / as Boheme is and some parte● of Germany : but that the chyrche whyche we sholde byleue and obay , were some secrete vnknowen sorte of euyll lyuyng and worse byleuyng heretykes . And that he chaunged preste into senior / bycause he entended to set forth Luthers heresye techynge that presthed is no sacrament / but the 〈◊〉 of a laye man or a laye woman appoynted by the people to preche . And that he chaunged penaunce into 〈…〉 he wolde set forth Luthers heresye techyng that penaunce is no sacrament .

Lo thys beyng y● onely purpose & entent of 〈…〉 Tyndale cometh now and expressely 〈◊〉 the same thynge that I purposed to shew . For he 〈◊〉 & wryteth openly those false heresyes in dede that I ●●yed then ●●teded after to do / so that hy● selfe sheweth now that I 〈◊〉 then shew● the people trewth / & th●●●eded I to make 〈◊〉 answere , syth hys owne wrytyng sheweth that he made his translacyon , to the entent to set forth suche heresyes as I sayed he dyd .

For as for that that Tyndale calleth them none heresyes but the very fayth , forceth me but lytle / for so hath euery he retyque called his owne heresyes syns crystendome fyrste byganne . But for all that the deuyll wyll be the deuyll though Tyndale wolde call hym god .

And I made my boke to good crysten people that know such heresyes for heresyes / to gyue them warnynge that by scripture of his owne false forgynge ( for so is his false translacyon , and not the scrypture of god ) he sholde not bygyle them , and make them wene the thynge were otherwyse then yt is in dede . For as for such as are so madde all redy , to take those heresyes for other then heresyes , and are thereby them selfe no faythfull folke but heretyques , yf they lyst not to lerne and leue of , but longe to lye styll in theyr false bylyefe : yt were all in vayne to gyue them warnynge thereof . For when theyr wyllys be bent thereto , and theyr hertys set thereon : there wyll no warnynge serue them . And therfore syth Tyndale hath here confessed in his defence , that he made suche chaunges for the settynge forth of suche thynges as I sayed : yt is inough for good cristen men that know those thynges for heresyes , to abhorre and burne vppe his bokes and the lykers of them wyth them / so that as I say I neded none answere to all his defence at all , sauynge to make as I haue done , both lerned and vnlerned folke perceyue hym for an vnlerned fole . And yet defendynge hym self so fondely , and teachyng open heresyes so shamefully : he sayeth yt appereth that there was no cause to burne his translacyon , wherein such chaunges founden as ye se , and beynge chaunged for such causes as hym selfe confesseth / that is to wyt for a foūdacyone of such pestylent heresyes as hym selfe affermeth & wryteth in his abomynable bokes : he myghte mych better yf he cut a mannys throte in the open strete , say there were no cause to hange hym but bydde men seke vppe hys knyfe & se yt hym safe . This myght he in good fayth myche better saye then , then he maye now say that there is no cause to burne his translacyon . wyth the falsed wherof and his false heresyes brought in there wythall : he hath kylled and destroyed dyuerse menne , and maye hereafter many , some in body , some 〈◊〉 soule , and some in ●oth twayne .

And 〈◊〉 where as in the ende he loketh so mych to me , that he forgeteth hym selfe / and makyng me a nother holy sermone of my couetousenesse , my great aduauntage in seruyng in falsed , myne obstynate malyce agaynst the trewth : he forgeteth in the meane whyle that his owne malyce is agaynst the trewth in such manner obstynate , that he doth as the deuell dothe , endure payne for the mayntenaunce of hys false deuelyshe heresyes agaynste the treuth / and puttynge me in mynde agayne of the false prophete Balaam and his euyll ende , and that all suche resysters of the trewth come at laste vnto an euyll deth : he forgeteth in the meane whyle the double deth that his felowes heretyques comenly come vnto , fyrst by fyre in erth , and after by fyre in hell / saue they that at the tone renounce his deuelysh heresyes , & so escape the tother . Tyndale therfore where yt lyketh hym to lyken me to Balaam , Pharao , and to Iudas to , syth the pytthe of all hys processe standeth in this one poynte , that his heresyes be the trew fayth , and that the catholyque fayth is false / that the holy dayes nor the fastyng dayes no man nede to kepe / that the dyuyne seruyces in the chyrche is all but superstycyon / that the chyrche & the ale howse is all one sauynge for such holy preachyng / that men haue no fre wyll of theyr owne to do nother good nor yll / that to reuerence Crystes crosse or any saynts ymage is idolatry / that to do any good worke , faste , geue almysse , or other , with entent the rather to gete heuen , or to be the better rewarded , there is dedely synne afore god & worse then idolatrye / to thynke that the masse may do menne any good mo then the preste hym selfe , were a false belyefe / a false fayth also to pray for any soule / great synne to shryue vs or to do penaunce for synne / freres may well wedde nonnes and muste nedes haue wyues / and the sacramentes of Cryste muste serue for Tyndales iestynge stoke : these be the trewthes that Tyndole preacheth . And bycause I call these trewthes heresyes : therfore Tyndale calleth me Balaam , Iudas , and Pharao / and ●hreteneth me sore wyth the vengeaunce of god and wyth an euyll deth . what deth eche man shall dye that hangeth in goddes handes / and martyrs haue dyed for god , and heretykes haue dye● for the deuyll . But syth I know yt very well and so doth Tyndale to , that the holy sayntes dede byfore these dayes synnys Cristes tyme tyll our owne , byleued as I do / that Tyndales trewthes be● starke deuely●he heresyes : yf god gyue me the grace to suffer for sayeng the same / I shall neuer in my ryght wyt wysh to dye better . And therfore syth all the mater standeth in this poynte alone / that yf his heresyes be the trew fayth , then I stande in parell / and yf they be a false fayth , I maye be safe inought : lette hym leue his sermon hardely for the whyle , and fyrste go proue his lyes trewe , and then come agayne and preache , and frere Luther also & his lemman wyth hym to / and then may the geese prouyde the foxe a pulpette .

Here endeth the seconde boke , in whyche is confuted Tyndales defence of his false translacyon of the new testamente .

¶ The thyrde boke , Here after foloweth the thyrde boke , in whyche be treated two chapyters of Tyndales boke / that is to wyt whyther the chyrche were before the gospell , or the gospell before the chyrch / & whyther the apostles lefte ought vnwryten , that is of necessyte to be byleued .

whether the chyrche were before the gospell , or the gospell before the chyrche .

TIndale hath all thys whyle wyth his defence of chaungynge chyrche and other thynges vsed in the chyrch , malycyously by hym chaunged in his translacyon / kept vs as it were styll stryuynge wyth hym in the chyrche porche . But now haue I wonne the porche vppon hym / and we be comen to ioyne togyther wythin the chyrche . For now takynge hys translacyon for damnable as it is / we be comen to trye bytwene vs the falsed of hys pestylent heresyes concernynge the chyrch and the worde of god , by the spyryt of god taughte vnto hys chyrche / wyth which heresyes he corrupteth the worde of god , and wyth poysen infecteth hys chyrche / as I haue before manyfestely declared , bothe concernynge Crystes holy sacramentes and dyuerse other artycles of Crystes fayth .

But for as mych as by the dyscourse of my dyaloge , I proued clerely that nothyng can be sure & certayne amonge crysten men not so mych as the holy scrypture it selfe , but yf we byleue the chyrche / and I proued also that the chyrch of Cryste can not fall in dampnable errour , but hath ben , is , & eue● shall be , taught by the spyryte of god euery necessary ●r●u●h to the bylefe wherof god wyll haue them bounden / and that thys chyrche is and euer hath ben taughte by the worde of god partely wryten and partely vnwryten / and that those two wordes are bothe of one authoryte / and fynally dyd I proue that the very chyrche of Cryste here in erthe whyche hath the ryght fayth , and whyche we be bounden to byleue and obaye , is thys vnyuer●all knowen people of all crysten nacyons , that be neyther put out nor openly departed out by theyr wylfull scysmes and playnly professed heresyes / and that Luthers chyrche & all the chyrches sprong out thereof , wyth all the prophetes and patryarches of the same , as Suinglius , Butzer , Balthasar , Otho , frere Huyskyn , frere Lambert , and Tyndale , be the synagoge of Sathan and seruauntes of the deuyll : nowe cometh me Tyndale and perceyuynge hym selfe sore bounden to the stake wyth the strength of thys chayne / begynneth to wrythe and wrestle and fareth fowle wyth hym selfe , to loke yf he coude breke any lynke therof . where about for as mych as he seeth that all the rable of heretykes haue longe labored of olde / and yet theyr bokes vanesshed awaye to the deuyll with them selfe / and that the deuell hath of theyr dry asshes reysed vp an hundred sortes of new sectes of heretykes , mych more blasphemouse then euer were the olde : he hath ouerloked studyously all theyr bokes / and wyth all the poysen that the deuyll hath put in them hath stuffed hys mouth full , to spet it out agayne agaynste god and hys holy sacramentes , and all good crysten people whom he laboreth to enfecte with the fury , that they sholde not knowe the very chyrche of god whereof them selfe be membres / but wolde make them so madde as to byleue that the chyrche of god were some one sorte of an hundred sectes of heretykes , & no marke among them all why more the tone then the tother / where as they muste and do in thys poynte all agree , that they be all false saue one , and the trouth is in dede that they be false euerychone .

Now to knowe that the nerer Tyndale cometh to the mater , the forther he fleeth from that trouth / and hydeth hym selfe in the derkenesse of the deuyll , walkynge with a sconse of a dymme lyghte to make men w●●e he wolde shewe them the way , and ledeth them clene awry : ye shall here how boldely he begynneth / and after shall I so shew you the mater , that euery chylde shall perceyue hys bolde wyly foly to come of no good truste in hys cause , but lakke of wytte and shame .

Tyndale .

Whyther the chyrche were before the gospell , or the gospell before the chyrche . An other dowte there is , whether the chyrche or congregacyon be before the gospell , or the gospell before the chyrche . whyche questyon is as harde to solue , as whether the father be elder then the sonne , or the sonne elder then his father . For the hole scrypture and all byleuynge hertes testyfye , that we are begotten thorow the worde . Wherfore yf the worde begette the congregacyon , and he that begetteth is before hym that is begotten : then is the gospell before the chyrche . Pause also Romano . ix . sayth : how shall they call on whom they beleue not . And how shall they byleue without a precher . That is , Cryste must fyrste be preached ere men can byleue in hym . And then it foloweth , that the worde of the preacher muste be before the fayth of the byleuer . And therfore in as mych as the word is before the fayth , and fayth maketh the congregacyon : therfore is the worde or gospell before the congregacyon .

More .

Lo he that redeth this and hereth not th answere , excepte hym selfe be well ryped in the mater : maye wene that Tyndale in these wordes had quyt hym selfe lyke a man , & borne me ouer quyte / he solueth the obieccyon so playnely , & playeth therwith so pleasauntely . But now when ye shall vnderstande that neuer man was so madde to make thys obieccyon to Tindale but hym selfe : then shall ye laughe to se that he wresteleth all alone & gyueth hym selfe a fall , and in hys mery solucyon mokketh also no man but hym selfe .

I sayed in my dyaloge that the chyrche was before the gospell was wryten , and that the fayth was taught and men were baptysed , and masses sayd and the other sacramentes mynystred amonge crysten people , before any parte of the newe testament was put in wrytynge / and that this was done by the word of god vnwryten . And I sayed also there , and yet say here agayne / ●hat the ryght fayth whiche Adam had and suche as in the same fayth succeded hym , longe ere wrytynge beganne , was taught by the worde of god vnwryten / and so went from man to man , fro the father to the sonne by mouth . And I sayed that thys worde of god vnwryten / is of as greate authoryte as is the worde of god wryten .

I shewed also that the chyrche of Cryste hath ben , is , and ●uer shall be , taught and instructed by god and hys holy sp●ryt wyth hys holy worde of eyther kynde / that is to wyt bothe wyth hys worde wryten and hys worde vnwryten / and that they whyche wyll not byleue goddes worde but yf he put it in ●●●●ynge , be as playne infydeles as they that wyll not byleue it wryten / syth goddes worde taketh hys authoryte of god th●● s●eketh it , an● not of man that wryteth it . And there is lyke suertye and lyke certayne knowledge of the worde of god vnwryten , as there is of the worde of god wryten / syth ye knowe neyther the tone nor the tother to be the worde of god , but by the tradycyon of the chyrche . which chyrch as all crysten men byleue , and the scripture sheweth , and saynt Austayne declareth , and Luther hym selfe confefseth , and the deuyll hym selfe sayeth not nay / the blessed spyryte of god hath inwardely taught , teacheth , and euer shall teache , to know , iudge , and dyscerne the worde of god from the worde of man / and shall kepe the chyrche from errour ledynge in to euery trouthe / as Cryste sayth hym selfe in the .xvi. chapyter of saynt Iohnns gospell . whych he dyd not yf he suffered the chyrche to be dampnably deceyued in takynge the worde of man for the word of god / wherby it sholde in stede of seruyce to be done to god , fall in vnfaythfulnes , and wyth idolatry do seruyce to the deuyll .

And therfore I shewed in my sayd dyaloge / and yet the kynges hyghnes mych more playnely shewed in hys moste erudyte famouse boke agaynst Luther out of which I toke it : that the word of god vnwryten is of as grete authoryte , as certayne , and as sure , as is hys worde wryten in the scrypture / whyche poynt is so faste and sure pytched vppon the rokke our sauyour Cryste hym selfe , that neyther Luther , Tyndale , nor Huskyn , nor all the hell houndes that the deuyll hath in his kenell , neuer hytherto coulde , nor whyle god lyueth in heuen and the deuyll lyeth in hell neuer herafter shall ( barke they , bawle they neuer so faste ) be able to wreste yt out .

And that they be all as I tell you so feble in this poynte , whereuppon th effecte of all theyr hole heresies hangeth ( for but yf they veynquysh this one poynt , all theyr heresyes fully be burned vppe and fall as flatte to asshen as yt were all moyse all obstinate heretyques dyd ) ye maye se a clere ●roue by these wordes of Tyndale , whyche he hath sette so gloryously forth in the fore fronte of his batayle , as th●●gh they were able to wynne the hole felde . For where as I sayed that the gospell and the worde of god vnwryten was byfore th● chyrche / and by yt was the chyrche begonne , gathered , and tought / and that the chyrche was byfore that the gospell that now is wryten was wryten , that is to wyt byfore any par●● of the gospell was wryten / for as for all the hole gospell , 〈◊〉 is to wyt all the wordes of god that he wold haue 〈◊〉 byleued , and kepte , was yet neuer wryten : this beynge the thynge that I sayd , Tyndale wyth all the helpe he hath had of all the heretyques in Almayne this two or thre yere to gether / is yet in such dyspayre to be able to matche therewith , that he is wyth shame inough fayne to forgete that I sayed the chyrche was byfore the gospell wryten , whyche thynge hym selfe can not denye , and is fayne to frame the doute & make the obieccyon / as though I had sayed that the chyrch had bene byfore the gospell and the worde of god vnwriten / wherof hym selfe knoweth well that I sayed clene the contrarye . And therfore good readers hauynge this thynge in your remembraunce : take now the payne to reade Tyndales wordes agayn , and ye shall haue a pleasure to se how fondely he iugleth afore you . For now his crafte opened & declared vnto you : ye shall perceyue that he playeth nothynge clene / but fareth lyke a iugler that conuayeth his galies so craftely , that all the table spyeth them .

Tyndale .

And agayne as the ayer is darke of yt selfe , and receyueth all her lyght of the sonne : euen so are all mennes hertes of them selfe darke wyth lyes , and receyue all theyr trewth of goddes worde , in that they consent therto .

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And this lyketh me very well / and so myche the better by cause that the goodnesse of god causeth Tyndale to speke these wordes , nothyng touchyng the mater for any reprofe of my boke / but onely reprouynge hym self and condēnyng all his hole secte . For I neuer sayed , nor no man ellys as I suppose neyther crysten nor hethen / that god taketh hys trewth or his lyght of man but man of god . And therfore this holy sermone he spendeth but in waste / sauynge as I sayde for the condemnynge of hym selfe and his secte .

For syth yt is trew that by the lyght of god as Tyndale here confesseth , mennys hartes be clensed from lyes & false opynyons and from thynkyng euyll good , and therfore from consentynge to synne / and we se well that Tyndale and all hys secte be sette all vppon heresyes & false blasphemouse lyes , and thynke ( yf they thynke as they saye ) bothe euyll good & good euyll / for they call Crystes sacramentes euyll and 〈◊〉 lechery good / and so not onely consent to synne but also commytte and defende and teache the whole dede stynkyn●● 〈◊〉 of synne : yt foloweth by Tyndales own holy sermon here , that his owne herte and the hertes of all hys whole secte be the darke ayer of hell / from which the lyght of goddes owne gloryouse sonne that came to geue lyght in to the darke ayre of this erth , hath farre wythdrawen his bemys . And this hath Tyndale wyth his owne holy wordes deuysed of none occasyon / and farre from the mater but onely to shew the glorye of his hygh spyrituall phrase : nothyng done at all but geuyn hym selfe a fall , and throwen all hys mater in the myre .

yet hath he one worde , by whyche it appereth that whyle he saw hym selfe fallen : he wolde pull downe other men in to the myre to hym . For yf ye consyder hys wordes / ye shall se that he cowcheth them in suche wyse , that he wolde make men wene that where so euer there were a trew bylefe and false opynyons taken awaye / that there it muste nedes be that men shall not consent to synne . whyche thynge he doeth for the colour and cloke of theyr false opynyon , by whyche they teche that fayth alone alwaye suffyseth / wherin when they fynde them selfe so shamefully confuted and conuicted , they be loth to seme to fle by day , and therefore they fle by nyght and retrete them selfe in the darke / makyng as though they were mysse taken and ment no thyng , but that who so haue a ryght byleue & not a false opynyon , it can not be but that he must nedys do well as Tyndale sayth here , that he which doth not byleue euyll to be good , he shall neuer consent to synne .

As it is a greate foly to afferme thys / so were it all moste as mych foly to confute thys . For who is there that thynketh that to kyll a man for hys money is no synne and yet many wretches do it . who thynketh that aduowtry is no synne , & yet many wretches do it . who th●nketh that to wedde a nonne is no synne / I dare saye not euyn these wretches them self that wedde them , but they veryly know it for synne and yet the wretches do it . And therfore thys tale of Tyndales is but a very folys●he heresye .

Tyndale .

Iohn .xvij. Sanctyfye them o father thorow thy trewth . And thy worde is trewth . And thus thou seyst that goddys trewth dependeth not of man . It is not trew bycause man so sayth o● admitteth it for trew .

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whereof serueth all this whyle no man sayed the contrary .

Tyndale .

But man is trew bycause he byle●eth it , testyfyeth , and gyu●th wyl●●● 〈◊〉 hy● harte that yt is trew .

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Nay pe●de thys is not alway trew . For saynt Peter hym selfe was not trew , when he testyfyed & gaue wytnesse wyth hys mayster in his harte , and yet forsware hym openly with hys mowth . And Iudas byleued in hys harte that goddys worde was trew / and yet was hym selfe not trew but a false thefe and a false traytour to . And now adayes also be there many false theuys and traytours vnto god , false heretykes I meane , that by the worde of god byleue and wote well inough that it is abomynable thefte and sacrylege for a frere to wedde a nonne / and yet as false harlottes bothe , do and teche the contrary to theyr owne bylefe .

Tyndale .

And Cryste also sayth hym selfe Iohn .v. I receyue no wytnesse of man . For yf the multytude of mann ys wytnesse myghte make ought trew : then were the the doctryne of Machomet trewer then Crystes .

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Now cometh he sumwhat to hys purpose in dede / but he cometh to a full shrewde purpose . For by these wordes of Cryste in the fyfth chapyter of Iohn / he wolde make it seme that there sholde no credence be gyuen to the chyrche bycause they be men / and therefore can not as Tyndale sayth ●ere ●ytnesse vnto Cryste nor hys worde , syth Cryste sayth hym selfe I receyue no wytnesse of man . To thys purpose hath he brought forth all hys gaye paynted processe byfore / the glyterynge wherof he hopeth sholde so dase our eyen , that we sh●lde not se the falsed of hys shorte sodayne conclusyon , in whych he knytteth vp Cryste and Machomet togyther , to confounde the credence and authoryte of Crystes chyrch .

But good crysten readers , dyfferrynge for the whyle Machomett●s doctryne wyth whom Tyndale maye make a matche : I shall shewe you what fraude and deceyt Tyn●●le here vseth , bothe in the translatyng and in the interpretacyon of these wordes of our sauyour Cryste , that he reher●●th wryten in the fyfthe chapy●●r of saynt Iohn . Cryste in 〈◊〉 place neyther meaneth nor sayth , that he taketh no wyt 〈…〉 man as Tyndale reherseth / but he bothe meaneth & 〈…〉 he taketh not hys specyall wytnesse of man but 〈…〉 to the entent that ye maye the better perceyue 〈…〉 heresye seme proued by the gospell , he 〈…〉 the 〈◊〉 . ye shall vnderstande that the latyn tonge 〈…〉 artycle that the greke hath , and whiche artycle in parte both oue englysh langage hath , and the frenche also , and dyue●se other t●●ges , and yt is in englyshe this worde , the. For wher● as we ha●e two artycles in englysh , a and the : a or an ( for both is one artycle , to tone byfore a consonaunt the tother byfore ● vowell ) is commen to euery thyng almost . But the sygnifyeth often tymes some specyall thynge , and dyuydeth yt from the generall . As when I saye a man or a horse / yt standeth indyfferent , & ●●●pereth not what man or what horse I meane . For if I vow be so vnwyse to say to my seruaunt , go ●o me this ●tand to a man / he sholde not wyt what man he sholde go to . But wh● I saye , go do this erand to the man : he woteth wel● that I meane a certayne specyall man to hym and me knowen , to whom the erand perteyneth . This artycle the , doth therfore in oure englyshe tonge gyue great lyght vnto the sentence / and the greke tonge hath an artycle that doth the lyke in theyrs / & the lakke of the lyke doth in the latyne tonge leue often tymys the sentence obscure and darke , whyche ●olde wyth that artycle yf the latyne langage had yt , appere open and playne .

I shall shew you fyrste an example therof in the ●●●●● cha●pyter of the gospell of saynte Iohn , whyche place Ty●●●le hath wronge translated also / for what cause the deuyll and he knoweth . For Tyndale is not ignoraunt of that artycle , neyther the greke nor the englyshe , and maketh hym felt as though he translated the new testament out of greke . The●e wordes be the wordes of the gospell in that place after Tyndales translacyon :

This ys the recorde of Iohn , when the Iewes sent prestes and seu●●es fro● Hierusalem to aske hym what art , thou / and he confessed a●d denyed not and sayed playnely I am not Criste . And they asked hym what ●●ē , arte 〈◊〉 lias . And he sayed I am not . Arte thou a prophete . And he answered 〈◊〉

I wolde not here note by the ●uaye , that Tyndale here translateth no for nay , for yt is but a trys●e and wysta●●yng of the englyshe worde : sauynge that ye sholde se● he which in two so playne englyshe wordes , and so co●●e as is 〈◊〉 and no , can not tell when he sholde take the tone , and 〈◊〉 the tother / is not for translatynge in to englyshe , a 〈◊〉 very mete . For the vse of those two wordes in answery●●e to a questyon is this . No answereth the questyon 〈◊〉 by the affyrmatyue . As for ensample , yf a man 〈…〉 Tyndale hym selfe : is an heretyke mete to transla●●●● scrypture into englyshe . Lo to this questyon yf he wyll answere trew englyshe , he muste answere nay and not no. But and yf the questyon be asked hym thus lo : Is not an heretyque mete to translate holy scripture into englysh . To this questyon lo yf he wyll answere trew englyshe , he muste answere no & not nay . And a lyke dyfference is there bytwene these two aduerbis ye , and yes . For yf the questyon be framed vnto Tyndale by th affyrmatyue in this fasshyon . If an heretyke fasely translate the new testament in to englysh , to make his false heresyes seme the word of god , be his bokes wurthy to be burned ? To this questyon asked in this wyse , yf he wyll answere trew englyshe he muste answere ye and not yes . But now yf the questyon be asked hym thus lo by the negatiue : If an heretyque falsely translate the new testament in to englysh , to make his false heresyes seme the worde of god / be not his bokes well worthy to be burned ? To this questyon in thys fasshyon framed yf he wyll answere trew englyshe , he maye not answere ye , but he muste answere yes , and saye yes mary be they , both the translacyon and the translatour , and all that wyll holde wyth them .

And thys thynge lo though yt be no greate mater / yet I haue thought good to gyue Tyndale warnynge of , bycause I wolde haue hym wryte trewe one waye or other / that though I can not make hym by no meane to wryte trewe mater , I wolde haue hym yet at the leste wyse wryte tre● englyshe .

But now to the mater selfe . ye se that by Tyndals translacyon the iewes asked of saynt Iohn whether he were a prophete and that he answered nay / and so he denyed that he was a pr●phete . Now doeth Cryste testyfye of hym , that he was b●●h a prophete and more than a prophete / so that yf saynt Iohn sholde say of hym selfe that he was no prophete , and Crysts sayed yes / eyther sholde saynt Iohn say vntrew hym selfe , or ellys sholde there an vnt●●●th be spoken by the mouth of our sauyour hym selfe / of whyche two thynges the tone is ●●●edyble and the tother impossyble . And in the latyne 〈…〉 thynge is lefte in dowt● for lakke as I tolde you 〈…〉 correspondent to the greke artytle & to the en 〈…〉 the / and for that cause some eyght holy men 〈…〉 were for 〈◊〉 of the greke tonge myth 〈…〉 be vnderstanden 〈…〉 perceyuynge the artycle / saw well inough that he sholde not haue translated it in to the englyshe , art thou a prophete , but art thou the prophete / and then were the mater open and playne . For they asked hym not whyther he were a prophete , that is to wytte whyther he were any prophete / but whyther he were the prophete , that is to wyt the greate prophete of whom Moyses prophesyed and promysed in the dewteronomy / of whyche prophete there was opynyon amonge many of the iewes , Deuter. 18. not that he sholde be Cryste but a grete prophete that shold come before hym / and therfore they asked saynt Iohn , arte thou the prophete , menynge that specyall prophete . And yet the iewes that asked saynt Iohn the questyon , notwyth standynge that by theyr owne questyon they knewe that he dyd not in hys answere denye hym selfe to be any prophete , but that specyall prophete of whome they ment : dyd yet falsely reherse hym in theyr anger , when they sayd agayne vnto hym , yf thou be neyther Cryste nor Nelyas nor prophete , why baptysest thou then . And as the iewes dyd then wyttyngly false reherse hym : so doth Tyndale as falsely now translate hym / makynge it seme that by theyr questyon and hys answere , eyther saynte Iohn sholde saye vntrew , or ellys ou● sauyour hym selfe . And for what intent let Tyndale hym selfe tell / but that he so doeth hys translacyon sheweth . And that he doeth it wyttyngly well appereth , by that he is not so ignoraunt in the greke tonge , but that he knoweth the artycle there whyche he sholde haue taken in to the englysshe / and in many other places so hath he done . And in this place yf he had not perceyued it hym selfe : yet that good vertuouse and well lerned man Nicholas de lyra , gaue hym warnyng therof / whom though Tyndale lyste to set at so shorte and mokke and scorne , sayenge that Lyra desirat : yet he shall not say nay but he gaue hym good warnynge here , and hath in dede more good lernynge in the scrypture of god , then hath Luther and Huchyns , and fyue frere Huys●yns , & as many frere Lambertes to .

Now that I haue shewed you somwhat of the strength and effecte of the artycle , bothe greke and englysshe , whych declareth that the worde whereto it is set , sygnyfyeth not a thynge generally and confuse at large , but some specyall thynge determynate of that kynde / and that I haue sh●●ed you one ensample therof in the gospell whyche Tyndale h●●● euyll translated : I wyll now go ferther and shew you 〈◊〉 he hath euyll translated also thys selfe same texte of saynte Iohn to , whyche he now alledgeth , & hath therin falsyfyed the wordes of our sauyour hym selfe , whyche he now bryngeth forth for hys purpose .

The wordys spoken by our lorde be as Tyndale hath translated them these , I take no recorde of man . In the latyn they be thus Ego testimonium ab homine non recipio . whyche yf it be translated into englysshe without the artycle as the latyn hath none / then is it thus , I take not recorde of man , and not as Tyndale hath translated , I take no recorde of man He maketh his englyshe as though the latyn were , ego nullum testimonium ab homine recipio . And whyther the sentence be precysely both one in these twayne , I take not recorde of man , & I take no recorde of man : we shall not now nede to dispute , syth Tyndale taketh the sentence wronge whyche of them both so euer were the wordes , as I shall shew anon . But fyrste I shall go forth and shew you as I byganne , that he sholde haue translated the wordes in to englysh otherwyse / and therby haue expressed the greke the better , and yet not contraryed the latyne .

ye shall therfore vnderstande that in that place of saynt Iohn the fyfte chapyter , where Tyndale hathe translated Crystes wordes in this wyse , I receyue no recorde of man : the greke boke hath there vppon thys worde recorde the artycle , that is as I haue shewed you correspondent vnto our englyshe artycle the / by which artycle put byfore the word recorde , that word there in the tonge in whych th euangelyste wrote the wordes hym selfe , sygnyfyeth not a comen record in generall , but a certayn● specyall kynde of recorde / as the greke artycle made the worde prophete in the fyrste chapyter , to sygnyfye not a prophete in generall , but a specyall prophete whome the Iewes loked for .

And therfore I saye that Tyndale sholde in his englysh translacyon not haue lefte oute that artycle the / but sholde at the leste wyse haue translated yt thus , I receyue not the recorde of man / where as wyth his translatyng no record , that article the , wheruppon the wayght of the sentence hangeth / he hath not onely lefte oute but clene excluded also . For yf he had translated yt , I receyue not recorde of man , though he le●t oute the● yet he myght take yt in there to and mende yt , makynge 〈◊〉 I receyue not the recorde yf man . But now that he hath translated yt , I receyue no recorde of man : he hathe excluded yt vtterly but if he take in not , and putte out his false no / for he can not saye I receyue no the recorde of man . And thys hathe he done not of ignoraunce but of malyce , to make yt seme that Cryste vtterly refuseth and reiecteth all maner wytnesse of man , in testyfycacyon and wytnessynge of hym and his trouth . And this translacyon therfore deuyseth Tyndale / bycause he wold haue vs wene that Cryste wolde haue the wytnesse of all his chyrche vtterly serue of noughte .

But now bycause yt wyll peraduenture seme vnto some menne , that though he had in his translacyon expressed the greke artycle and made yt thus , I take not the recorde of man , that yet yt were all one and no difference bytwene those wordes and these , I take no recorde of man : of trouth the dyfference is not ethe for euery man to man to perceyue / & yet some difference is there in dede , as there is bytwene these twayne : If a man wolde saye in spekynge of god and Moyses , I take Moyses for no leder of the chylderne of Israell / he shold say wrong , for he shold deny hym to haue ben theyr leder in any maner wyse , as he was theyr leder in dede . But yf he wolde saye I take not Moyses for the leder of the chylderne of Israel , he shold saye well inough / for he shold therby not vtterly denye Moyses to haue bene any maner leder of them / but he shold denye that he was theyr onely leder or theyr chyefe leder / meanynge that though he were a leder , yet god was the leder , that is to wyt the chyefe leder . Now yf any yet perceyue not clerely the strength of this artycle : he maye consyder that yt is not all one to saye , I take you for no man , or I take you not for a man / & I take you not for the man . The two fyrste excludeth hym vtterly from all the nature and kynde of man / the thyrd doth but denye hym to de some such certayne man as they meane of .

But yet shall ye ferther vnderstande that as I sayd in the begynnynge , though oure artycle the , be correspondent vnto the greke article in declaryng the certayntie of the thyng that it is put vnto , and in restraynynge the worde from hys generall sygnyfycacyon to a more determynate especyaltye / and that in many thynges thys is very playne and clere : yet doeth not our artycle somtyme so fully and so effectually declare that thynge as doeth the artycle in the greke specyally , but yf we chaunge the order of our englysshe wordes from the order of the greke . And therfore I saye , that to put away the dowte and for the better expressyng of the artycle / Tyndale shold in the translatynge of that place , haue chaunged somwhat the order of the wordes . And where they lye in the latyn in thys wyse : I receyue not the recorde of man / he sholde rather haue translated it thus : the recorde I receyue not of man . For by so translatynge those wordes , and so chaungynge the order : he sholde haue gone more nere to the expressynge of the very sentence that Cryste there spake and ment / whyche was that the specyall recorde he toke not of man but of god / and not that he wolde take of man no maner recorde at all , as I shall anone so clerely proue you , that Tyndale shall neuer whyle he lyueth wade out therof .

But fyrst it wyll happely seme hard to some men , that he whyche translateth sholde in hys translatynge make any chaunge in the order of the wordes . ye shall vnderstande that it is a thyng whych he must many tymes nedys do / bycause of the maners and formes of spekyng in dyuers langages . For yf he shall alwaye translate worde for worde and in the order as it standeth / he shall somtyme gyue a sentence vnable to be perceyued or vnderstanden / and somtyme a wronge sentence , ye & somtyme a contrary to , of all whyche I coude gyue you samples were it not bothe nedeles & also to longe for thys present boke .

I wyll therfore of a greate many gyue you but one / in whyche Tyndale hath for lakke of chaungynge the order of the wordes , translated a very playne place in the very begynnynge of saynt Iohnns gospell , whyther wronge or no lette other iudge / but surely otherwyse then I wolde haue done .

Hys translacyon is thys , In the begynnyng was that worde , and that worde was with god , and god was that worde .

Fyrst thys worde that , putteth Tyndale for the artycle the , wherof I haue shewed you before / wherin he doth mych a mysse . For it is no dowte but that it is here put for to sygnyfye the specyaltye of the thynge , as of god and the worde / bycause there be many wordes , and the paynyms worshypped many goddes / the artycle is set to those wordes to sygnyfye not a worde nor a god , as though it were one of the many wordes of men , or one of the many goddys of paynyms / but the god and the worde that is the synguler god and the synguler worde , that is to wyt the worde of god . And that artycle is not in englysshe thys word that , as Tyndale hath translated / but thys word the , as he sholde haue translated / but yf he wyll turne the artycle out of hys kynde .

A man maye say the man that we spake of was here , or that man that we spake of was here . But and yf he speke of hym absolutely , wythout mencyon of any speche before had wyth hym , he muste then saye , the man was here / and maye not saye , that man was here , but yf he adde sumwhat to it .

If ye speke of the cheyfe capytayne of the felde / ye maye saye , the capytayne wyll marche on to morow . But ye maye not saye , that capytayne wyll march on to morow , but yf ye shewe whych capytayne by some other token , or ellys poynt hym wyth your fynger . And Tyndale knoweth thys well inough / and therfore he calleth god all waye the lorde , and not a lorde nor that lorde . And therfore I meruayle why he translated In principio erat verbum , In the begynnyng was that worde / for surely that worde that , was not to begynne with all nor to stande there , but yf Tyndale entended to mokke .

But as I was about to saye , where he translateth god was the worde / all be it that in the greke and in the latyne it doeth well inough , and in the englysshe that maner of spekynge maye stande in many other thynges , and specyally in the plurell nomber , or in the fyrst persone or the seconde synguler , where the thynges that we speke of or the artycle or the dyuersyte of the worde whyche is in the verbe in our englysshe tonge , chaunged in those two persons synguler , taketh the dowte awaye , and maketh the mater open whyche of the two termys we take for subiectum and whyche for praedicatum : yet in thys greate mater I wolde rather in our owne tonge haue chaunged and turne● the order of the wordes & translate it thus : the word was god / then as Tyndale doth god was the word / lykewyse as I wold in englysshe rather saye Cryste was god , then god was Cryst . For these wordes god was Cryste , or god was the worde be not well spoken / sauynge that we vnderstande thereby the tother wyth the wordes chaunged , that is to wyt Cryste was god , and the worde was god . For ellys vnderstanden as it standeth god was Cryste / were as mych to saye as that all the thre persons the father , sonne , and holy gooste were Cryste all thre .

How be yt I saye not this to shew that I thynke that Tyndale ment any euyll in this / nor I impugne not in this pa●●●● his traslacyon so greatly , but yt maye be borne : but 〈◊〉 the tother is in englyshe better and more clere . And 〈◊〉 this / to shew that the order of the texte in scripture , maye be sometyme by the translatour better chaunged then kept . And I tell you this to th entent that ye maye the more clerely perceyue , that Tyndale sholde not haue letted in the tother place that he alleged in the fy●the of saynte Iohn , I receyue no recorde of man / to chaunge the order of the wordes wyth settyng in the artycle , and to haue sayed , the recorde I receyue not of man . ye and syth the artycle sygnifyeth the specyall kynd of recorde : rather then to do as he hathe done leue yt quyte out , as though god refused all maner wytnesse of man / he sholde rather haue translated yt , the chyefe recorde I receyue not of man / as hym self hath in the .xiiii. of saynt Iohn translated , the chyefe ruler of thys worlde commeth / where as in the greke is not this worde chyefe / but that he putteth yt in hym selfe bycause of the artycle , whyche he wolde not withdraw from the deuyll , te●●● he shold haue mynyshed his honour . But he wythdraweth yt here from the wytnesse of god / bycause he wold take from god the witnesse of all trew crysten people , whyche by theyr trew bylyef do sette theyr sealys as wytnesses to the trewth of god .

Now yf he wyll contende and stryue wyth vs vppon the vygour & strength of this artycle the , or of his correspondent in the greke / and brynge vs forth example in our speche or in the greke eyther , in whyche yt maye seme that those artycles haue not alway that man●r strength : all this shall nothynge 〈…〉 all .

〈…〉 receyuynge . Now yt is not all one to say I take no recorde of man , & to saye I receyue no reorde of man . For the tone sygnyfyeth that I care not greatly for yt , nor y● I●wyll not go aboue yt . But the tother I receyue no wytnesse of man / sygnyfyeth that I wyll not receyue yt but refuse yt though yt be offerde / or ellys a nother thyng whyche wyll not serue for Tyndales excuse , that is to wyt , I receyue none bycause no man o● erth me none . But Cryste wythout sekynge for yt , was offerd the wytnesse of saynt Iohn / whych Tyndale maketh as though Cryste rei●cted , whyle he falsely translateth the wordes or our sauyour , and maketh hym say , I receyue as wytnesse of man .

Now shall I playnely shew you by many places of scrypture , that yt ys false that Cryste receyueth no recorde of man / and then may ye therby se that Tyndale hath translated false . Or yf he wolde blynde you wyth brabelynges vppon the greke tong / ye shall at the leste wyse perceyue playnely , that he taketh the sentence falsely . For these two be playne repugnaunt , that god receyueth some recorde of man / and that god receyueth no recorde of man .

For Tyndale can 〈◊〉 saye● here that Cryste spake yt there by the fygure called ype●bole , as saynte Iohn dyd where he sayed● his wytnesse no man taketh , meanyng very few . Our sauyour hym selfe in the . xxliii chapyter of saynt Luke , when he had shewed his apostles and other of his dyscyples that all thynge wryten of hym by Moyses and the prophetes and in the psalmes , were and most be fullfylled / and theruppon opened theyr wyttes to the vnderstandyng of scripture , and sayed vnto hym , thus yt is 〈◊〉 & thus yt dehoued Criste to suffer and to ryse agayne from deth the thyrd daye , & 〈◊〉 penance and ●omyssyon of synnys sholde be preach●d in his name amonge all nacyons begynnynge at Hierusalem● he sayed vnto them forther , and ye are wytnesses of ●●●ges / & lo I wyll sende the promyse of my father 〈…〉 but tary you in Hierusalem tyll ye be endewed wyth power from an hygh .

He sayeth also hymselfe 〈…〉 ende . The new testament is full of those places / in which yt appereth playnely that men be the wytnesses of god . For though that hys tre●th is so iustyfyed in yt selfe , that yt nedeth no wytnesse neyther of man nor angell , as touchynge any nede that god hath for hym selfe : yeth syth he entendeth to worke the waye to mannes saluacyon , not by onely myracle ( wherby he myght yf he wolde so wreste man●es wyll to consent , that he sholde not fayle to byleue / or caste in to the he●●● such● a lyght of vnderstandynge , that he sholde not fayle to knowe euery artycle of the fayth ) but also by a naturall waye ioyned thervnto / wherin the wyll of man maye by the labour of hym selfe wyth god in the captyuynge of his wyt , wyth helpe of grace in to the obedyence of the worde of god , somwhat indeuour hym selfe towarde his owne saluacyon by fayth : yt pleaseth god to vse in thys waye the wytnesse of men for a meane / as he sayth in the same .v. chapyter spekynge of the wytnesse of saynt Iohn , where he sayth , there cord I take not of man , but I tell you this bycause ye shold be s●●ed / geuyng them knowlege that though his credence hang not vppon the mouth of man , for he hath as he there sayth a greater wytnesse then the wytnesse of saynt Iohn , that is to wyt the wytnesse of the father hym selfe : yet was yt ordeyned that he shold haue also the witnesse of saynt Iohn , & so afterwarde of hys euangelistes & apostles , ye & after that of his other holy doctours & sayntes of euery age , & specyally , the wytnesse of his hole 〈…〉 ere & gyue ●redence vnto them for a meane by god prou●ded , by whych man shold come to fayth for his saluacyon . Here ye ꝑcey●● that not onely in other places of holy scripture / but also in the self same place that Tindale br●ng●●h ●●●th hym 〈◊〉 , wyllyng by hys false translatyng & false vnderstandynge , to make men w●ne that god taketh no ma●er wytnesse of man : it is clerely proued that he neyther sayed nor 〈…〉 ●aner / but that he receyued not hys 〈…〉 use he had greater recorde then 〈…〉 whyche hys father 〈…〉 of hys father hym 〈…〉 he receyued and accepted 〈…〉 the wytnesse of man also , 〈…〉

〈…〉 whyche is the spyryte of trouth that 〈◊〉 ●●●●eth of the father , he shall bere wytnesse of me / and ye shall bere wytnesse also , bycause ye haue ben wyth me from the begynnynge .

And yet for bycause we sholde not by these wordes wene that he wolde haue no wytnesses of ●enne , but those onely that were wyth hym in hys owne tyme whyle he lyued here on erth : god sayth by the mouth of saynt Iohn the baptyste in the .iiii. chapyter of saynt Iohn the euangelyste : he that cometh from heuyn is aboue all , and testyfyeth : the thynges that he hath seen and herde ; and hys testymony 〈…〉 ●eceyueth . who so euer do receyue hys ●ecorde hath putte hys seale thereto that god is trew . And what is that to saye ● but that euery trew byleuyng man is a wytnesse that god is trew .

And thus appereth it not onely that Tindale hath mysse translated and mysse construed these wordes of Cryste , I receyue no wytnesse of man , for the furnysshynge of hys heresye , by whyche he wolde take awaye the creden●e of Crystes catholyke chyrche : but also ye se it proued by these wordes of saynt Iohn bapty●te , that euery trew byleuyng man that byleueth goddes worde , is a good wytnesse of god and hys worde / whyche clerely proueth that Crystes catholyke chyrche is a very specyall wytnesse . For onely in that chyrch is the nomber of trewe byleuynge me●●● / and all that are fallen owte of that catholyke knowen chyrche are very false byleuynge heretykes .

And also syth our sauyour sayth , my cheyse ●ytnesse I take not of man / but yet I saye to you thys , that is to wy●●e the wytnesse of the good holy man saynt Iohn , bycause ye sholde be saued : it appereth that Tyndale refusyng all wytnesse of man , is lykely to be one of those that for ● 〈◊〉 nes ●●ue● shal be saued .

Now all be it that I haue in thys 〈…〉 uycted Tyndale of ma●● 〈…〉 by 〈…〉 uertynge the holy scrypture of god , as well in 〈…〉 as in the sentence , for the settynge for th●●●ys yt 〈◊〉 resye / takynge awaye the 〈…〉 gyue to the chyrche of god , and the 〈…〉 men are bounden 〈…〉 doeth all thys bycause 〈…〉 brynge men into the 〈…〉 myth as I se that Tyndale 〈…〉 py●et● and wolde we sh●l●e 〈…〉 handeled , I wyll a lytell stykke the lenger therin / to th entent that I maye make you the better and the more clerely perceyue , that all that he sayth therin is eyther playne vntrew , or ellys suche parte as is trew proueth hys purpose false .

And for as mych as Tyndale is all in the worde of god / and wolde therby make vs wene that mennys wordes sholde vtterly serue of nought , not so mych as for the wytnesse of goddys worde : ye shall vnderstande that where Tyndale sayth that the word of god clenseth mannys soule from false fayth , Io.v. ye be clene by reason of the worde / yt is not trew that ( as Tyndale wolde haue yt seme ) the worde alone clenseth the soule from false fayth , no more then fayth alone as he wolde haue yt also seme , clenseth the soule fro synne . For bysyde the grace and goodnesse of god preuentyng mennys wyll , wyth offerynge man by the herynge of hys word a gracyouse occasyon of fayth / & bysyde mannys owne wyll workynge wyth grace towarde the captyuynge of hys vnderstandynge , towarde the bylyefe of goddes worde / & bysyde the grace , ayde , and helpe of god workynge wyth mannes wyll towarde that obedyence , wheruppon foloweth the grace that accomplisheth and perfay●eth the full acte of belyuynge : bysydes all these I saye there helpeth towarde yt a nother thynge , wythout whych many a man sholde neuer haue commen to yt / and that is bysyde the worde of god , the wonderfull workes of god in ●oyage great and meruelouse myracles , wythout whyche in 〈◊〉 a man sholde neuer haue byleued that he had ben god / as hym selfe testyfyeth in the .v. of saynt Iho● , sayeng : The workes whyche my father hathe geuen me to do : the same workes whyche I do , they be wytnesse of me that my fathe● sent me .

wyll ye se that Cryste putteth not all in hys worde , but ioyneth hys worke the ●●●yth . Here what he sayth in the .xv. chapyter of saynt Iohn . If I had not comen and spoken vnto them , they shold 〈◊〉 synne / but now haue they nothynge to cloke theyr sy●ne wythall . He that hateth me hateth my father . Now though thys be in dede trew , that yf 〈◊〉 had neuer comen and spoken to them , there coude not 〈◊〉 ben layed vnto them the synne of that 〈◊〉〈…〉 ere now 〈◊〉 when they refused to byleue on 〈…〉 hated 〈◊〉 to shewe that h●s onely 〈…〉 wroughte myracles amonge them for the profe of his word● therfore he saith ferther , If I had not 〈◊〉 workes among them whyche none other man dyd / they sholde be wythout synne . But now they haue seen and yet haue hated both me and my father .

Thus haue I clerely shewed you that where Tyndale wolde haue yt seme , that goddes worde alone alwaye clenseth mennys soules from false fayth : he teacheth in that a false fayth / for the myracles many tymys helpe to the clensynge of mennys soules .

And lette Tyndale stykke well to thys poynt / for I entende shortely to shew by this , that the miracles wrought in Crystes chyrche , clerely reproue all the false fayth that he & his mayster , & all theyr whole hondred sectes that are theyr ofsprynges preachen.

But fyrst where Tyndale sayth that goddes worde ys trew / & layth therfore the .xvii. of saynt Ion̄ : no man sayth nay to y● . And where he sayth forther , the goddis trewth dependeth not of mannys word : we wyll graute hym this , & mych more to then he loketh for . For I say ferther that the trouth of god dependeth not vppon goddes owne worde neyther / but is absolutely trew in yt self without any dependaunce vppon hys word at all . And as yt is trew that Tyndale sayth , that goddes trewth is not trew bycause man so sayth : so is this trew also , that goddes trewth is not trew bycause god so sayth . But on the tothe● syde lykewyse as this argument or consecucyon is trew , god sayth that who so byleue not his chyrch / is to be taken as a paynem , ergo that thyng is trew : so is thys consecucyon trew , Crystes chyrch ●ayth the who so breke hys vow of chastyte synnet● dedely , & who so holdeth yt for lefull holdeth an heresye / e●go these two thy●ges be trew , and yet is neyther the ●●ye●● of the chyrche the cause of the trewth of these two , nor the sayeng of Criste the cause of the trewth of the tother . But lykewyse as y● I 〈◊〉 syt , yt must nedes be that he sytteth whyle I se hym syt / b●●●use I could not se hym sytte but yf he ●atte in dede / & yet he sytteth not bycause I se hym sythe , for 〈◊〉 sholde though I saw hym not / 〈…〉 vppon the trouth of hys dede . For though the worde of god can not be but trew , syth yf the thynge were not trew , god that is the trewth wolde not saye yt : yet is the thynge trew that god speketh / not bycause it is trewly spoken , but bycause it is trewly done . For treuth was the thynge in yt selfe , & treuth yt sholde haue bene , all had yt neuer be spoken . And thys I saye is trewe , touchynge the wordes and proposycyons by whiche god any thynge telleth to his creatures by wrytyng or wythout / leste Tyndale make vs here some sophystycacyon , as though I spake of the great worde of god wherby all thynge is made , the sonne of god hym self one egal● god wyth hys father and theyr holy spiryte .

If Tyndale aske vs now wherof serueth then the treuth of goddes wordes : I saye that yt serueth to make knowen or byleued amonge vs the treuth of goddes dede . For when god sayth , who so byleueth and is baptyzed and lyueth well after , or doth penaunce for his synne / shall for hys fayth & good workes be hyghly rewarded in heuen : though thys shall not be trew bycause god sayth yt , but bycause he wyll dot yt / nor he dothe yt not bycause he wyll saye yt , but he sayth yt bycause he wyll do it : yet hath he ordeyned that his worde shall be the way by whiche that trouth shal be shewed vs / and that myracles ioyned vnto hys worde sholde make vs perceyue that yt is his worde , whereby wyth reason we muste nede● be bounden to byleue yt / and it beyng byleued , we ●e by reason ●●unden to obey yt .

And this y● therfore the waye that god hath taken from the begy●nynge , that is to wyt he hath from the begynnyng ioyned hys word with wonderfull workes ; to make his word perceyued for hys awne .

Thus 〈◊〉 he in eu●ry age before the comyng of Cryste . Thus dyd he in Cryste hym selfe , whose wordes he proued by hys wonderfull workes as hym selfe sayth in the .xv. of saint Iohn . Thus dyd ●e also by his blessed apostles , whose doct●●ne he 〈◊〉 by 〈…〉 . And thus hath he done 〈…〉 . For likewyse as when he sent his owne sonne , 〈…〉 hym and hys doctryne decla 〈…〉 selfe suche as he was ● god made hym do myra 〈◊〉〈…〉 then euer any dyd amonge 〈◊〉〈…〉 the sent his apostles & 〈…〉 that Cryste dyd , the countrees to whome they were sent , wolde haue went that they had lyed , and fayned suche fables them selfe : therfore Cryste caused them to do myracles in his name before the people / as god caused Moyses to do before Pharao . And when the world was turned to hym ; and that apostles were not sent about : then was the chyrch of euery tyme , the apostle to suche as were bor●e and came in to the worlde in theyr tyme / of whome suche as lyued and remayned after theyr tyme / were in theyr stede lefte for the apostle that sholde teche & preche to those other that sholde be borne in to the worlde in theyr tyme , and so forth from age to age . And for bycause that they whyche from tyme to tyme come in to thys worlde , new borne fyrste of theyr flesshely father and mother , and after of god and theyr mother holy chyrche by the water and the spyryte , sholde be sure that theyr sayde mother the chyrche is Crystes apostle and techeth them the trewe doctryne , & neyther deceyueth them wyth false scrypture , as doth the congregacyon of turkes / nor with false tradycyons , as do the synagoges of iewes / nor wyth false exposycions as do the false chyrches of heretykes : he causeth hys chyrche to do myracles styll in euery age , and to be dyscerned and knowen by the plentuouse workyng of goddys wonders by hym selfe wrought therin so many and so grete that no man can be ignoraunt the●●f , but he that wyll neyther se nor here / or is so desperate and so sore set in an obstynate malyce that he wyll to the deuyll wyllyngly , by doyng now as the iewes dyd of olde , and as Tyndale now doth of new / ascrybynge the myracles wrought by the goodnes of god to be done in goddes chyrch by the power of the deuyll .

And yet when Tyndale is so 〈◊〉 to tell vs thus / he to●cheth nothyng thys poynte ●hyche I layed agaynst hym in my dyaloge / that yf hys ly● were 〈◊〉 in , then shold●● folow that of so ma●● false chyrche●●f false heretikes , 〈◊〉 shold some suche myracles be wrought as well as 〈◊〉 / syth yf that oure chyrche were a false chyrche , it 〈…〉 one of the many . And yf he wyll saye that 〈…〉 the greatest and the falseste , and therfore ●alse 〈◊〉 therin 〈…〉 they stretche from heuyn to hell : they haue not yet amonge 〈◊〉 all 〈◊〉 myracle done greate nor small ; neyther by god nor deuyll .

And thys I shew you for the order of the thynge , that ye maye perceyi●e that the trewth of god is ●ustyfyed in it selfe , and dependeth not vppon hys worde , nor hys worde is not the cause of hys trewth : but by hys worde he sheweth hys trewth / and by his worde we byleue that he doeth it / and by hy● ap●●●●es and euangelys●es we byleue that he sayed it / a●● by the chyrche of euery age folowynge , we be taughte and byleue that the eu●ngely●es a●d the apostles preched and taught partely by wrytynge partely by worde wythout wrytynge , suche thynges as the catholyke chyrche of Cryste telleth vs to haue bene taughte by them . And by the myracles done in the same catholyke chyrche , we know that the same chyrche is the ●e●y chyrche of god / and that the doc●●●ne of the same chyrch is reueled and tought vnto yt by the spyryte of god / and that all other congregacyons 〈…〉

And therfore though yt be trew as in dede yt ys , that the trew doctryne doth proue the trew myracles , and false doctryne proueth the false myracles / by which we be sure that the Crysten myracles be trew , & the paynyms myracles false : yet know we whyche ys that trewe doctryne , by the reason that the trew doctryne hath bene better proued and dayly ys better proued , by mo and greater then euer was the false doctryne or euer shall be to the worldes ende . For as our sauyour saith hym selfe : If I had not come & wrought workes such as no man ellys had done / they had bene wythoute synne . And he promyseth that his preachers shall do the same , and yet greater / and so dyd hys apostles , and his dyscyples , and hys holy doctours , euer synnys in euery age .

And as for false myracles / the catholyke chyrch of Criste as yt is taught by the spyryte of god , dyscerneth them well inough from the trew / and therfore yt dyscerneth and forbe deth the meruayles that appere in crystall stonys , and such other superstycyouse coniuracyons / and ys not moued any thynge to set by them , but condempne them though they be meruelouse / & hath the spyryte of god accordyng to Crystes promyse assystent , wherby yt bothe re●ecteth the superstycyouse meruayles , and worketh the very faythfull myracles , for the profe of the trew faythfull doctryne and the trew marke and knowlege of Crystes very trew chyrche , syth none hath miracles but yt .

Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that the doctours of the catholyque chyrche haue not done miracles for euery poynt of theyr doctryne : I say no more dyd the apostles them selfe , though Tyndale saye yes , whych he shall neuer proue . But by theyr myracles they proued th●m self trew preachers and goddes trew messengers / and that thynge suffysed for the profe of theyr whole doctryne . And so god hath done miracles synnys for all hys sayntes in euery age / and that suffyseth to proue that theyr fayth was trew and the contrarye false .

And yf he saye farther that euery man in the catholyque chyrch doth not myracles , nor euery doctour neyther : to that I answere that of many men teachyng all one fayth , yt suffyseth yf any one of them do myracles . For when the Iewes were in desert / euery man that was of the well beleuyng sort dyd not myracles / nor 〈◊〉 also dyd no miracles but Moyses dyd , & god wrought ●onders among them self .

Nor when diuerse apostles went to gether / euery one of them dyd not alwaye a myracle by hym selfe . But syth they were all of one fayth : it suffysed for the profe of the techyng of them all , that any one of them dyd .

If he wyll saye that sometyme the doctours whyche we call holy sayntes , haue not all agreed in one / but some one hath sometyme thought in some one thyng otherwyse then other haue done : I saye that thys his sayenge is nothynge to purpose . For god doth reuele hys trouthes not alwayes in one manner / but sometyme he sheweth yt out at onys , as he wyll haue yt knowen and men bounden forthwyth to byleue yt / as he shewed Moyses what he wolde haue Pharao do . Sometyme he sheweth yt leysourly , suffryng his flokke to comen & dyspute theruppon / and in theyr treatynge of the mater , suffreth them wyth good mynde & scrypture and naturall wisedome , with inuocacyon of his spirituall helpe , to serche and seke for the treuth , and to vary for the whyle in theyr opynyons , tyll that he rewarde theyr vertuouse dylygence wyth ledyng them secretely in to the consent and concorde and bylyef of the trouth by his holy spirite qui facit vnani mes in domo , whyche maketh his flokke of one mynde in hys house , that is to wyt his chyrche . So that in the meane whyle the varyaunce is wythoute synne , and maketh nothyng agaynst the credence of the chyrch / excepte Tyndale wyll say that he wyll neyther byleue saynt Peter nor saynt Paule in any thynge that they teache / bycause that ones they varyed in the manner of theyr doctryne as appereth . But he shall neuer fynde that any of the holy doctours helde obstynatly , the contrarye of that thynge whyche the hole catholyque chyrch had in his tyme determyned for an artycle of the fayth . For I dare surely saye that yf any so had done / he had repented and chaunged are god dyd any miracle for hym eyther quykke or dede .

And therfore as tou●hynge Tyndale and Luther & frere ●usken : this obte●cyon wyll not excuse theyr obstynate heresyes , holden so● styffely agaynste all the olde holy sayntes , whyle they saye now that freres maye well wedde nonnes / but yf they repent , and leue theyr heresyes , and do penauns , and teache trouth / for by such meanes they may yet be fayntes to , and so I 〈◊〉 god make them .

Now yf Tyndale wyll yet forther saye , that the chyrche yt selfe haue not 〈◊〉 in euery age vtterly byleued a lyke / but that the chyrch in some age hath byleued otherwise then it hath in some other : I say that this can also nothyng serue his purpose . For what so euer Tyndale sye : neuer shall he proue the contrarye , but that god is at hys lyberte styll and euer styll shal be , to teache hys trouthes more and more , as his pleasure shall be to haue them known , and to gouerne his chyrche to hys pleasure in dyuerse ages after dyuerse maners , such as hym self lyste for to dyuyse / wherof his chyrch is by theyr hole consent sure . For ellys shall the spyryte of god assystent euer with them by goddes promyse , & ledynge them in to all trouth : neuer suffer his hole catholyke chyrch to consente thereto .

And yf Tyndale saye the contrarye of this / he muste also saye that Cryste hath broken hys promyse / and he muste also tell vs , that we be styll bounden yet vnto thys day● , & euer shal be bounden styll , to the law made by god and hys holy apostles at Hierusalem , whyche they made & sent out in wrytynge / where they forbode fornycacyon and eatyng the meate offred vp to idoles , & all meate of bestes suffocate or strangled , and the eatyng of any bestes blood . whyche ordynaūs yf yt now stande , and that we muste now byleue that yt ys not now lawfull to do any of those thynges there forboden ( as we muste in dede yf god were not for all that at his libertye styll in the gouernaunce and teachynge of his chyrche , what he wyll haue byleued and what he will haue done ) then is quyte gone a good pece of theyr plesaunt preachynge of theyr euangelycall lyberty . For then where as they preache that every man is at lybertye to eate what he lyste / they leue no man at lybertye to eate a pore ●uddynge .

But hys chyrch is sure inough / by that they knowe well that theyr hole assent is not wrought wythout the spyryte of god assystent in hys chyrche . And that them selfe be hys very chyrche they be sure inough / by that they se hym specyally present wyth them by hys contynuall myracles , whych fayle in all false chyrches that be fallen out of thys . All whych false chyrches thys trewe chyrche of cheryte Crystes proper badge / ceaceth not to sollycyte and labour to reuoke and receyue agayne into the porte of saluacyon and the hauen of heuen : excepte the deuyll by theyr ded●ly malyce , drowne them vtterly wyth dreuynge them downe into the dep●he of indurate harte , thorowly perced with they● pestylent heresye .

And yet I say ferther , that thys obiection of dyuerse a●tycles byleued by the chyrch in diuerse tymes wyll not serue the heretykes for theyr defence / syth that they teche suche thynges for trew , as not onely all the holy doctours and all the holy sayntes of euery tyme , but also all the hole chyrche of euery tyme , haue euer taughte to be false . Or ellys they muste shewe vs some one man at the leste wyse that in thys fyftene hundred yere before theyr dayes , hath holden for good and lyefull , that such persons as haue vowed chastyte to god , may● ronne out of relygyon and wedde harlottes at theyr lybertye .

Now yf Tyndale wyll take holde of that that I haue sayd / that god is at hys lybertye to reuele a thynge when he wyll / and that he hath now reueled thys new artycle to hym and hys holy felowes : they must I say then proue vs by myracles that they be goddes trewe messengers / for ellys why sholde we byleue them .

If he say that they proue it by scrypture , in that they preche hys worde : I saye agayne the scrypture I knowe for goddys worde , but them I knowe not for goddys messengers , bycause they wyll not he aknowen of all goddys wordes / for they wyll byleue no word of hys wythout wrytyng / and also his wordes wryten they mysconstrue . And therfore concernyng the worde of god wryten : the questyon lyeth bytwene vs , not vppon goddys worde but vppon the ryght vnderstandynge therof , wherin whyle all the olde holy doctours be quyte agaynste them , we say now to Tyndale that of reason we maye not byleue hym . For in these poyntes wherin we vary / as for ensample that freres maye wedde nonnes : eyther the scrypture is playne and easy to perceyue , or dowtuouse and harde to vnderstande . If it be playne & easy : we can not thynke but that amonge so many of the old , holy , wyse , and well lerned doctours / some one at the leste in all thys longe whyle sholde haue ben as able to perceyue it as Luther and he now so sodeynly . And on the tothersyde yf he saye that in that poynte the scrypture is darke & hard : then maye we wyth reason thynke that Luther and he and frere Huskyn to , maye as well mysse vnderstande it now , as all those holy wyse well lerned sayntes all thys fyftene hundred yere . So that yet agayne we be come to the poynt , that Tyndale yf in hys doctryne dependynge vppon th exposycyon of scrypture he loke to be byleued , that freres maye wedde nonnes , agaynst the doctryne of all those olde holy doctours that in theyr exposycyons calle it abomynable lechery : he muste nedys do myracles as they dyd , or els must Luther or frere Huskyn or some one of theyr felowes at the leste .

For where he sayth in one place of hys boke agaynst me , that we maye requyre no myracles of them : yf he had sayd , bycause they can none do , I wold haue taken it for a fynall answere , and wolde haue troubled hym no more wyth that troubelouse questyon . But now bycause he sayth it nedeth not / and wolde it sholde seme that the myracles which Cryste and hys apostles dyd , sholde serue for the profe of hys doctryne : my conscyence can not suffer me to let hym go so .

For syth our questyon is not vppon Crystes & hys apostles wordes , whyche theyr myracles proued trewe / but vppon the exposycyon and vnderstandynge that Tyndale and Luther gyueth to them / whyche exposycyons all they that god hath euer hath synnes the apostles dayes hytherto by myracles proued to be hys trewe prechers , haue playnely taught to be false : Tyndale maye not saye for shame , but that for hys doctryne taughte by those exposycyons , yf he wyll be byleued agaynst many prechers proued trewe by many myracles , he must do myracles to / or ellys yf we byleue hym before all them , we be mych more then madde specyally but yf some of hys company and felowes in hys heresye dyd some myracles for hym , whyche our lorde be thanked he suffereth no false chyrche of heretykes to do , but hys owne catholyke chyrche alone .

And now in suche thynges as god seeth moste nede , and the heretykes moste busy to assaute hys chyrche : there doth he moste specyally fence in hys chyrche wyth myracles . As in the reuerence of ymages , relykes , and pylgrymages , and worshyppynge of sayntes , and hys holy sacramentes , and moste of all that holy sacrament of the auter hys owne blessed body , for whych maner of thynges he hath wrought and dayly doth many wonderfull miracles / and the lyke of those that he wrought in the tyme of hys apostles , to shewe and make profe that hys catholyke chyrche is hys perpetuall apostle , how many nacions so euer fall therfro , and how lytell and small so euer it be lefte .

And therfore we saye not as Tyndale bereth vs in hand , that the trouth of god dependeth vppon the multytude of mennys mowthes : but that the catholyque chyrche illustrate wyth the myracles of god , and taughte by the spyryt of god / is set vppon the hygh mountayne of the stone that is Cryste / and therfore can neuer be hyd , but that the myracles whyche god euer worketh and euer shall worke therin , doeth and shall make the lyghte of the doctryne shyne and shewe the ryght waye to heuen .

And these myracles hath god often wrought to the conuersyon and amendement of iewys and heretykes / & often to the confusyon and burnynge vppe of obstynate iewes & heretykes , wyth the begynnynge of theyr hell euyn here in erthe .

Now Tyndale denyeth not but that there be and haue ben suche myracles / but he sayeth that they be done by the deuyll . But then saye I that in hys so sayenge he is worse then euer was the deuyll . For the deuyll durste neuer say so myche hym selfe , as dyd the iewes and nowe Tyndale saye .

But when he sayth it / I saye yet agayne he must shewe me why there be no myracles amonge all hys false chyrches of heretykes / or ellys to calle the trew myracles of god done in the catholyke chyrche of god false illusyons of the deuyll , is a worde well able alone to proue hym selfe a deuyll .

Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that the turkes haue myracles amonge them as well as our chyrche : I maye denye it hym by his owne rule , but if he proue it by playne scripture . But now yf I graunte it hym , yet shall it not serue hym . For I may proue hym by playne scrypture that there be neyther none suche , nor so many done amonge them as these be that be dayly done in Crystes catholike chyrch . For our sauyour sayth that hys owne myracles passed all that had ben before / & that yet hys apostles and dyscyples and hys faythfull byleuynge folke , Io●● . 14 shold do as greate and greater . And we se that in the catholyke chyrche god hath done and dayly doeth for hys sayntes , bothe whyle they were here and after theyr departynge hense / and hath also done and dayly doeth at dyuerse ymages and pylgrymages , as greate myracles in confyrmacyon of our fayth in that behalfe , as euer he dyd in the tyme of the apostles . And therfore am I very sure that neyther paynyms nor turkes be able to matche our chyrche in myracles / but that ours as farre passe all theyrs yf they haue any , as euer the myracles of Moyses passed the wychecrafte of the egypcyan iuglers . And of thys am I as sure / as that the false chyrches of heretykes do no myracles at all .

Forther more as for miracles or meruayles done among the Turkes or Saracenis , syth Tyndale is not yet as farre as I know cyrcumcysed , nor professyth not hym self a Saracene , nor I know hym not very surely for a Turke but for an heretyque : I shall not greatly nede to dispute with hym vppon myracles done amonge the Machometanys / but ( whyche were as good as to do that he doth ) let hym go cyrcumcyse hym self , and then come agayne and speke for Machomete and his men , and I shall answere hym forther for theyr miracles . But in the meane tyme whyle I know hym but for an heretyke : yt is inough to tell hym that among all the false chyrches of fals heretikes there be no miracles at all . But god worketh hys miracles in his trew chyrch , to shew his trew chyrche , that is to wyt his trew apostle . And then his trew preacher knowen / that is suffycient for all his preachynge , and to proue that he doth teache & expoune the scripture after the ryght vnderstyng tought and inspired by the spiryte of god , sent to dwell wyth his chyrche for euer , accordynge to Crystes promyse / and therfore shall not nede n● partyculare miracles vppon artycle , for Cryste vsed not that hym selfe .

And thus in this myne answere to his one chapiter , which he so gayly florysshed , that he had went the glyteryng therof wold haue made euery mannys yies so adased , that no man sholde haue spyed his falshed and founden oute the trouth : I haue is suche wyse confounded hym and all his hole doctryne vtterly / that yf I neuer wold wryte one worde more , yet sholde he neuer agaynst this alone defende his deuelysh doctryne whyle he lyueth , and take all the deuyls in hell to helpe hym .

whyther the apostles left aught vnwriten , that is of necessyte to be byleued .

WE be come now good crysten reader vnto that mater , whyche is vndoutely one of the moste specyall poyntes that are in debate bytwene these heretyques and vs . For vppon thys questyon hangeth all theyr whole hold , in the destruccyon of many holy thinges byleued and obserued in Crystes catholyque chyrche .

For yf we speke of fastynge the lent or other holy vygiles : they saye we fynde yt not in scrypture . If we speke of kepynge the holy daye : the saye the scrypture appoynteth none . Iewe speke of worshyppynge the sacrament of the auter : they saye yt is not commaunded in scrypture / and so of euery good thynge almost in lyke wyse . For in this poynt they ende not . It serueth them but for a steppe forwarde . For after tyme that they haue sayd this ones , that euery necessarye thynge is wryten / all be yt that they say therin false and are neuer able to proue theyr sayeng trew as ye shall se anon : yet when they be confuted and concluded openly therin , they dyssymule shamefully theyr confusyon / & makynge then as though theyr parte were proued , they runne on farther & wyll here no more therof / but denye also the thynges that be well and playnly wryten in holy wryt in dede .

As for ensample when we saye that confyrmacyon , presthed , and matrymonye , be holy sacramentes : Tyndale sayth naye / for he sayth yt is not wryten in scrypture . we shew hym playne scryptures for them , of grace geuen in them by the imposycyon of the handes by the wordes of saynte Poule / and Tyndale laugheth his wordes to scorne , sayeng it was but a maner of the countre , as a man layeth his hande vppon a boyes hed when he calleth hym good sonne . And as for matrymony / he sayth that saynt Poule mente not in suche wyse / and that he can make as good a sacrament of salte , of musterd seed , of a kaye , or of a nette .

So that as I saye byleue them onys in this , that we be bounden to byleue nothynge but the onely scrypture / and take awaye the credence ●●o● the catholyque chyrche , as though that god leuynge his onely scrypture therin , hadde broken his promyse and taken his spyryte therefrom : the very scrypture yt selfe shall serue euery folyshe heretyque for a bable .

Now for as mych therfore as the mater of thys chapyter , wherin Tyndale as he dyd in the chapyter laste before in whyche I haue playnely confounded hym , gooth abowte agayne to take awaye the credence of Crystes catholyke chyrche / whyche onys fallen awaye , the credence & the feute of scrypture and all gooeth wyth it ( For bothe wolde euery secte of heretykes wreste it vnto theyr owne e●●ours / and as saynt Austayn sayth , saue for the chyrche we knowe not the holy scrypture of god fr●● vnholy wry●ynge of man ) : I requyre the reader to consyder well what he readeth , and passe it not ouer sodaynly , but aduyse it sadly / and I dowte not then but he shall playnely se that Tyndale shall in this chapyter as solemply as he setteth forth , take a shamefull fall . Here now therfore what he sayeth .

Tyndale .

But dyd not the apostles teache ●●ght by mouth that they wrote not . I answere , because that many taught one thynge , and euery man the same in dyuerse places and vnto dyuerse people , and confyrned euery sermon wyth a sondrye miracle : therfore Cryste and his apostles preched an hunderd thousande sermons , and dyd as many myracles / whyche hadde ben superfluouse to haue bene all wryten .

More .

Now consyder good reader that Tyndales purpose is , to proue vs that the apostles wrote all that was of necessyte to be done or to be byleued . And remember that as yet he doth but tell vs that they dyd so , and proueth it not yet / but he wyll anon full worshyppefully . But in the meane waye marke me this fyrste , that he sayth that Cryste and his apostles dyd confyrme euery sermone with a sondry miracle . For tyll he proue me that by scrypture / I denye yt playnely . For syth neyther scrypture teacheth yt , nor the catholyke chyrch preacheth yt , nor any reason proueth yt : I maye well and boldely denye yt , and so I do .

For I se well his falsed for whych he fayneth yt . He seeth miracles wrought by god plentuousely in hys chyrche , and that thereby his chyrche and the fayth therof is confermed / and therfore to brynge at the lestewyse some parte therof in questyon , he wold saye that we fynde not specyall miracles done for euery poynte . But I say no more dyd the apostles neyther , nor Tyndale shall neuer proue yt . For yf he wyll proue me that / he muste proue me trew , not onely the thyng that hym selfe sayth , whych is more then euer he shall proue trew / that is to wyt that they proued euery sermon wyth a sondry miracle / but also that eyther they neuer preched but one artycle in one sermone . Or yf they preached many / he muste then proue me two thynges / one , that they confyrmed that sermon wyth as many miracles as they preached poyntes / a nother that they shewed the people that the miracles whyche they then dyd , was so many miracles for so many poyntes / for ellys myght all those myracles be done for the profe of one of those poyntes , and all the remanaunt vnproued . For yf Tyndale wyll say that thinge neded not for as mych as any one miracle suffysed to proue them all , syth yt proued hym a trew preacher : then shall Tyndale say ●o the thynge that I wolde haue hym saye / for then hym selfe proueth that it neded not that they sholde proue euery sermone wyth a seuerall myracle made amonge one people / nor peraduenture any one sermone neyther otherwyse then as by miracles shewed at other occasions bysyde theyr sermons , they proued them selfe holy men and goddes messengers . For we fynde many miracles done by them at suche tymes as they were not makynge of sermons . And yet when they dyd them in Crystes name / we finde not alway that they added a specyall artycle of oure faith , whyche specyaltye they wolde haue by that miracle confermed .

And thus ye se that h●re he affermeth one thinge that he shall neuer proue / whych thynge yet I wolde not vouche safe to speke of , sauynge that he doth it of an euill purpose . For hys mayster Martyne Luther when Erasmus layed agaynste hym for mannys fre wyll the doctry●e of the olde holy saynts , whose fayth was approued by miracles : layed agaynst hym agayne , that though they dyd myracles , Erasmus yet coulde not proue that any of them dyd a myracle specyally for that artycle and therfore he wolde haue that artycle seme vnproued as for any myracle . And this way taketh Tyndale now for the selfe same ●●t●nt / & therfore fayneth that the apostles confermed euery sermone wyth a sondrye myracle . But I dowte not but that yf we sholde bydde Tyndale here or Luther hym selfe , proue vs euery artycle of his fayth whych he wolde we sholde wene were the fayth that the apostles preached / yf we sholde I say dyd them proue vs , that the apo●●les conf●●med euery artycle therof by a sondry myracle : they shold seeke in scrypture tyll theyr eyen were ●●●ete they ●●●●de it .

More●●er Tyndales wordes fyghte to gether , and one 〈◊〉 can not agre wyth an other . For yf these wordes ●● trew that they preued euery sermon with a sondry myracle / 〈…〉 false that he sayth here also , that is to wyt of ●●racles , 〈…〉 be wryten as nedeth .

〈…〉 that Tyndale say●h , that thapo●●le● 〈◊〉〈…〉 miracle : yt foloweth that euery necessary poynte that they preached , they dyd proue by miracle . Then ferther yf euery necessary poynte that they preached they preued by miracle , bycause yt was nedefull that yt sholde be , for credence to be geuen to that point for our soules helth : it was nedefull then for the conseruacion of the same credence , yf the credence coulde not be kepte wythout wrytynge , that of euery suche necessary poynt of fayth and necessarye doctryne of theyrs , wythout whych byleued we canne not be saued / there were one miracle wryten at the leste . But there ys not of euery suche artycle one miracle wrytyn : ergo yt is not trewe that Tyndale goth aboute to proue , that the miracles as many be wryten as nede / and that euery necessary thynge is wryten . And veryly yf euery thynge that we sholde necessaryly byleue , had ben th entent of god to haue it put in wrytynge / and that yt hadde ben also necessary that euery poynt were preued by one miracle / and not suffycyent that the prechers were proued by miracles them selfe , & therby their doctrine to be byleued : yt were very probable then , both that the wryters wolde haue wryten some thinges mych more open and playne than they ●aue done / and also that of euery necessary poynte of fayth , they wolde haue wryten one miracle at the leste . But now syth god entended not to gyue his new lawe by bokes , but specyally by the necessary poyntes therof wryten in mennys hartes / wherof hym selfe wolde be the specyall inwarde mayster : he hath prouyded that scrypture to serue for parte , but not to serue alone for all . And syth suche myracles as be wryten therin , suffyse to proue the apostles goddes trew preachers / and therfore neded not myracles to be wryten●for euery poynte of theyr preachynge : no more neded there to be myracles done for euery poynt of theyr prea●●●ge .

And for farther profe therof / hew many thynges , preac●ed the apostles by theyr pystles , wyth whyche we rede not that they sente by the messengere for euery poynte a myracle .

And thus good readers here ye se fyrste that thys poyn● of Tyndales preachynge muste be better proued / whyche poynt thus reproued , answereth and reproueth clerely dy●●●● other places of hys boke hereafter . But yet is i● 〈◊〉 ●o ●e consydered & wayed in hys wordes that he sayth , 〈…〉 substau●ce in generall of euerythynge ●●●●ssary to 〈◊〉 soules hesth , both of what we ought to byleue , and what we ought to do / 〈◊〉 wryten . So that what so euer we ought to byleue or do , that same is wryten expressely / or drawen of that whyche is wryten .

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In these wordes though I fynde lakke of trouth / yet I sumwhat alow hys wyt / as our sauyour sayed by the wykked bayly , Lucae . 15 whyche though he played the false shrewe for hys mayster / prouyded yet wylyly sumwhat for hym selfe . And so playeth Tyndale here . For now that he playnely perceyueth that the doctryne is playnely false , whyche hys mayster Luther & hym selfe to , haue taught so playnely bytwen them all thys whyle / that is to wyt that there is no necessary trouth to be byleued , but yf it be proued by playne & euydent scrypture : now cometh Tyndale and seeth that they shall be put to flyghte and fayne to runne awaye / and therfore wylyly prouydeth a startynge hole , steppynge from playne and euydent scrypture theyr old specyall playne euydent wordes , vnto darke debatable termes of generall pyth and substaunce , and of drawynge out and deducynges and dependynge vppon scrypture / vppon euery whyche worde he maye make an argument when it cometh to the poynte .

But yet yf he wolde honestly stande to hys taclynge in thys poynt , and gyue vs the lyke lybertye that hym selfe wyll take / and neyther vse false deduccyons of hys owne , nor refu●e our deduccyons yf we deduce them well : we wolde neuer fynde faute in thys poynte . But now let vs deduce a thyng neuer so strayght , it can not be alowed . Let hym selfe drawe it neuer so farre a wry / yet wyll he swere that it is ryght inough . I shall gyue you for the more clerenesse one ensample of eyther syde . Matthei 2● we saye that syth our sauyour hath hym selfe promysed in the gospell , that hym selfe and hys holy spyryte shall be wyth his chyrche all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde : yt foloweth say we therof , that hys chyrch shall neuer fayle as longe as ●he worlde lasteth . Iohn . 16 And bycause our sauyour sayth in lyke●●●e , that hys holy spyryte euer abydynge wyth hys chyrche , shall teche his chyrch all thynges , and lede them into euery trouth , and put them in remembra●●●e of all that he hym selfe had or wolde say vnto them : we deduce theruppon that he wyll not suffer hys chyrche fall in to the erronyouse bylefe of any dampnable vntrouth / but lede them into the t●outh that is the contrary of that vntrouth . And syth 〈…〉 the holy g●●●● shall wryte vnto you all thynges , nor shall wryte you all trouth / but shall lede you into all trouth : we deduce theruppon that the bylefe where into the spiryte of god ledeth vs and planteth it in our harte , is as good and as sure to saluacyon of oure soules wythout any wrytynge at all , as yf it were wryten in parchement wyth golden letters and Crystes owne hande .

Here haue I shewed you a sample of oure deduccyons / whyche I truste euery man may se that we draw it not farre of , but that the scrypture well and clerely maynteneth oure deducynge therof . And the sample also that I shew you serueth mych for our mater agaynst Tyndale , that contendeth and laboreth to proue that we be bounde to byleue nothyng but goddys promyses / and here he seeth that god promysed not to put all thynge in wrytynge , but that the holy gooste sholde teche vs by ledynge vs into euery trouth .

Now shall I shewe you a sample of Tyndales deduccyon vppon scrypture , whyche as god wolde he bryngeth forth hym selfe in thys same present chapyter , to the entent that ye sholde not lakke a shew / wherby ye shall se how playnely he proueth hys holy doctryne by the holy scrypture .

The scrypture sayeth , loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe . Now vppon this texte deduceth Tyndale , that women may crysten and consecrate the body of Cryste and saye masse to . How other men wyll alowe thys deduccyon I can not tell . But lest they that lyke it not , myghte happe to wene that he sayth it not : I shall reherse you hys owne very wordes .

Tyndale .

They wyll happely demaunde where yt is wryten that women sholde baptyse . Veryly in this commaundement , loue thy neyghbour as thyselfe / yt is wryten that they may and ought to mynistre not onely baptisme , but all other sacramentes also in tyme of nede , yf they be so necessarye as they preache them .

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Lo syr here ye se that yf the masse be so necessary as the chyrche techeth / whyche sayth and hath ordeyned that it is necessary to be sayd vnto the parysshe at the le●●e wyse euery sondaye : yf the preste be not at home , then some good wyfe maye for a nede steppe to the awter and saye masse in hys stede / bycause the scrypture sayth , l●ue thy neyghbour as thy selfe .

what is there that these folke maye not proue by sc●●pture / yf they may deduce it thus and haue theyr deduccy●● alowed . Or a made as good deduccyon as thys , and y●●●●● no thanke . For he thoughte that bycause of the commaundement , 1. Parasip . 13. thou shalt honour thy lorde god / he myghte & was bounden to set hys hande vnto stayeng and kepynge vp of the arche of the testament that was aboute to fall . But god taughte other men by that mannys sodayne deth / that he was to malapert to medle wyth that kynde of goddys honour that was not mete for hym . And Tindale bycause a woman muste loue her neyghboure as her selfe : wyll haue her not touche the arche but the blessed bodye of god , and bodely consecrate yt her self / which neyther the blessed mother of Crist , nor the hyghest angell in heuen , durste euer psume to thynke , bycause god had not appoynted them to that offyce . Suche deduccyons vppon scrypture made they of lykelyhed that toke vppon them in the old testament more then theyr parte cam to / as Chore and Abyron , and the kynge Ozias , Numeri. 16. 2. Parasip . 2● . that wolde nedes playe the preste and encence god hym selfe / for whyche honorable seruyce● our lorde sent hym shame and sorow .

Now yf Tyndale aske me why a woman maye crysten & not consecrate syth both be sacramentes : I can answere hym the comen answere , that though both be necessarye / yet both be not lyke great nor lyke necessarye . For both is there greater reuerence to be had to the sacrament of Cristes body , then to the sacrament of baptysme , and yet is baptysme of more necessyte then the tother , syth that ●or faute of baptysme saluacyon fayleth and not forfaute of housell . But as for my parte I wold geue hym none answer to that question , other then the ordynaunce of goddes spyryte / whyche I se that god hath taught his chyrche , and ellys wolde he not suffer them to byleue that yt were well done , wherof no man is bounden to geue a precyse cause . But yt were ouer mych boldenes to thynke that we coulde precysely tell that cause of euery thynge that yt pleaseth god to deuyse / though Tyndale and his spirituall sort will not oba● goddes byddyng , tyll them self as he sayth haue enserched & founden the very full cause why .

It is to me for all Tyndales deduccyon a greater que●●yon yet , sauyng for the custume of Cristes catholyke chyrch why a woman may crysten , then why she may not consecrate . For surely syth god sent out onely men to baptyse : I wolde set no woman thereto for any nede , no more then to be a confessour , and ●●●oyle men of theyr synnys for ned● / sauynge that I se ye●one euer 〈…〉 where in Cristes ho●e chyrche , and the consent of holy sayntes approuynge and allowyng the same . And in consecratynge neuer woman dyd yt / nor good man byleued that any woman myghte do yt . whyche bylyef yf yt were false : I doute not but the spiryte of god techynge his chyrche , wolde ere this haue led his chyrche into the contrarye trewth accordynge to Crystes promyse .

But now as I say ye se by Tyndales ensample , for what entent and purpose he putteth in his deducynge & drawyng of articles of the fayth out of the scrypture / wherein he may as well byleue what he wyll and take what he lyste , not of the tradycyon of Crystes catholyque chyrche , but of the tradycyon of Martyne Luthers lemman / as frame hym selfe a fayth by a deduccion of scripture deduced in such a fashion .

In the same manner he draweth out of scrypture in hys boke of obedyence , and in thys boke also , that a frere may marye a nonne by the authoryte of saynt Poule . For beyng asked where he fyndeth yt in scrypture / he sayth yt is wryten in these wordes to Timothe , 1. Timoth. 3 a byshoppe muste be vnreprouable and the husbande of one wyfe . And in the wordes of saynte Poule , 1. Timoth. 4. there shall come false prophetes that shall forbede maryage . And in this texte also , 1. Corinth. 7. yt is better to may then to burne .

Is not this conclusyon trow ye well deduced ? In the fyrst bycause saynte Poule dyd putte in this word one , to forbyd and exclude any mo then one : Tyndale deduceth that a bysshoppe muste nedes haue one / and thereby maketh saynte Poule false in a nother place , where he counsayleth & wysshyth that he sholde rather haue none .

In the seconde texte bycause saynt Poule condemneth them that wolde saye , yt were not lawfull for any man to mary : Tyndale deduceth that euery maye mary , though hym self haue made vnto god a contrary promyse byfore / & myght as well deduce that no man maye be forbode to mary , though he haue a wyfe all redy . For the fr●re is as well and as clerely forboden to mary by the scryptures , that forbedeth hym the breche of his vowe : as is the man forboden to mary that hath a wyfe all redye .

And vppon the thyrde texte , bycause saynt Poule sayth that yt is better to mary than to burne : Tyndale deduceth that it is better for a frere to marye , then to forbere lechery / & consydereth not that when he breketh his vow and weddeth an harlot , then he burneth both bodye and soule , fyrste hete in fyre of foule fylthy luste , and after thys worlde in euerlastynge fyre of hell . Is not thys conclusyon worshypfully deduced vppon scrypture ? It is meruayle that he deduceth it not rather vppon the texte that he speketh of here : Loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe / and vppon thys texte also : Do to another as thou woldest be done to thy selfe . These haue yet some better colour for Luther and hys lemman / and I doute not but he wyll fynde them at laste , and saye that hys maryage is grounded there , bycause he loueth her wyth suche a lewde lousy loue , as the lewde lousy louer in lechery loueth hym selfe / and is so ryghtuousely dysposed , that he wyll neuer desyre that she shall lye wyth hym , but when he is euen as well content that hym selfe shall lye wyth her . Thys that we saye now in sporte / he wyll saye ones in erneste I warraunt you .

Now for the declaracyon of hys purpose , in drawynge & deducynge of th artycle of theyr faythlesse fayth out of scrypture of god , these ensamples suffyse / and therfore I shall procede farther .

Now nexte he commeth to the purpose , to proue you that euery necessary thyng that we be bounden eyther to byleue or to do● is wryten in scrypture . And now harke I praye you how properly the good man proueth it . These are hys wordes .

Tyndale .

For yf that I were bounden to do or byleue vnder payne of losse of my soule , any thy●ge that were not wryten nor depended of that whyche is wryten : what ●olpe me the scrypture that is wryt●n .

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Lo here is hys fyrste argument that he setteth forth in the fore fronte of the feld , as a specyall stronge bande . whyche argument who so w●ll aduy●e and consyder : yf hym selfe haue wyt , shall playnely saye that it commeth out of a mad mann●s mouth .

For by thys ●●afon tyll the gospellys were wryten , euery man myght● haue refused all the doctryne of Cryst in euery poy●t that was not wryten in the scrypture before his day , nor drawen out therof by a lytell streyghter lyne then Luther draweth his . And when Cryste taught them the counsayle of virgi●●t● and ●any other holes●●● thynges aboue the perfeccyon of theyr olde lawe : they myght haue sayd ; shew me t●ys in wrytyng . And then yf he had answered that hym selfe beynge suche as he was , and for suche testyfyed by wrytyng , and by the worde of hys father , and by hys owne wonderouse workes , owed to be byleued of them in euery thyng vppon payne of the losse of theyr soules : they myghte haue sayed agayn as Tyndale sayth now / yf we be bounden vppon the payne of losse of our soules to beleue any thynge that is not wryten nor dependeth of that whyche is wryten , what holpe vs the scrypture that is wryten ? Thys tale of Tyndales myghte they haue tolde vnto Cryst hym self , agaynst the sacrament of baptysme & the sacrament of the awter to .

1. Corinth. 11. Now when saynt Poule in his pystle to the Corynthyes sayed , I wyll order the remanaunt when I come my selfe : they sholde by Tyndales reason haue sent hym hys pystle agayne and saye / If we shall be bounden to do any thynge vnwryten , what auayleth vs all that euer thou wrytest ?

But there nedeth no places of scrypture to thys blasphemouse foly of Tindale spoken agaynst the scripture / bycause god hath taught & left some parte of hys pleasure wythout scrypture . For yf a man wryte certayne rules to hys howsholde seruauntes , and yet gyue them certayne besyde by his owne mouth , such as peraduenture shold nede no warnyng in wrytynge , bycause the contynuall vse and excer●yse of them coude not suffer them to b● forgotten ( in whych kynde of commaundementes be the blessed sacramentes so dayly vsed in Crystes chyrch , that forgoten they can not be , nor lefte they shall not be for all the besynesse that these heretykes the deuyls doctours can make ) yf thys lordes seruauntes were so wyse to lerne thys lesson of Tyndale and saye , naye syr and ye leue these thynges vnwryten then a strawe for all that ye haue wryten : myghte not the mayster saye that hys menne were a sorte of malaperte folysshe knauys . And thys is as ye se Tyndales fyrst reason , wherwyth he full properly proueth vs that the apostles wrote al● togyther that euer we sholde be bounden to byleue . whyche reason ye se your selfe is not worth one ●ysshe / but r●●her a playne ●nreasonable blasphemy , folysshely spoken agaynst the ●criptu●● of god / whych he sayth serueth for nought yf god byn●● vs to byleue any worde of hys bysy●e .

Now let vs procede to the seconde / why●● is I promyse you very seconde , fo● any frute that ye shall fyn●● therin . These are hys worde● .

Tyndale .

In as mych as Cryste and all his apostles warned vs , that false prophetes shold come with false myracles , euen to deceyue the electes yf it were possible : wherwyth sholde the trew precher confounde the false , excepte he brought trew myracles to confounde the false , or ellys autentique scrypture of full authoryte all redy amonge the people .

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Grete cause haue we to gyue thanke to god / whose goodnesse wresteth the tonges of heretyques and maketh them there speke most agaynst them selfe , where they wene to speke for them selfe the beste , as he serueth Tyndale here . For these be the wordes that I wolde haue wysshed hym to say . For where he meaneth that all must be wryten bycause that ellys there were nothynge that coude confounde false prophetes that sholde come and shewe false myracles , excepte the trewe prechers sholde shewe trewe myracles agaynste them : I answere to Tyndale two thynges . The fyrste is that it is playne false that Tyndale taketh for a playne truth / that is to wyt that the trewe prechers coude haue no thynge to confounde the false prophetes that sholde come wyth false myracles , but yf all the trouth were wryten in scrypture autentyque amonge the people . And that yf it so were / then the trewe precheours had inough wythout trew myracles to confounde the false prophetes bryngynge false myracles . The seconde thynge that I answere hym wyth is thys / that yf it were trewe that he sayeth , that wythout myracles nothynge wolde suffycyently serue in suche case , excepte that euery necessary thynge were wryten in auten , +tyque scrypture : yet syth hym selfe confesseth that trewe myracles myghte in suche case suffycyently serue the trewe precheour , and confounde the false , and saue the fayth vp ryghte / and that he can not saye but that god is able to do them when so euer he lyste , and wyll neuer leue hys chyrche destytute of helpe and comforte necessary , and therfore in suche necessyte wyll not fayle to do them : Tyndale must nedes agre ( be he neuer so lothe to comme to it ) that god hath no necessyte for auoydynge of suche parell , to prouyde that hys chyrche sholde haue euery necessary thynge delyuered vnto them , and euer more kepte wyth them in autentyke scrypture / whyle hym selfe by hys promyse wolde euer dwelle wyth them , and hadde for the profe of theyr fayth agaynste false prophetes and theyr false myracles , the myghtye meane of trew myracles , and oute of measure greter in his owne hande . whyche meane of miracles for the trew profe of his worde among mortall menne / is and hath bene and euer shall be , the fynall peremptorye stoppe agaynste all contradyccyon .

This secunde answere is open and playne inough in yt selfe . And for as mych as the fyrste appereth not peraduenture so fully playne at the fyrste syght / I shall make yt clerer . when Tyndale sayth that excepte all were wryten that we be bounden to byleue or to do , there were ellys nothyng saue miracles to confounde false prophetes that sholde come with false miracles : ye perceyue well that he prosupposeth that yf euery such thyng be wryten in autentique scripture , then wythout myracles the mater is saue inough / and the trew preachers able inough to confounde the false by the scripture alone . For but yf he saye so , he sayth no more for the alledgyng of scrypture then for the alledgynge of the fayth wythout scrypture .

Now Tyndale tellynge vs thus / we muste fyrst wyt of hym whych false ꝓphetes he meaneth , Paynyms , Turkes , or heretikes . If he meane Panynyms or Turkes , them goeth he very farre wyde / for the trew preachers can not confounde them wyth our autentyke scrypture / for yt is not autentyke amonge them , but they saye that yt is false . If he meane heretykes , he goth almoste as farre wyde / for they wyll also when they lyste denye for holy scrypture any parte of holy scrypture that proueth agaynste theyr purpose / as they denye the boke of Machabees , bycause yt proueth purgatory and prayours for them that are dede / and denye the pystle of saynte Iamys , bycause yt reproueth a bare fayth wythout good workes .

Now yf they admytte the scrypture for scrypture , yet are ye neuer the nere / for they wyll denye the trew sense therof , and obstynately defende a false / s● that the trew preacher and that false prophete shall be styll as farre a sonder , as yf they denyed the very scrypture yt selfe .

Now when he speketh of confoundynge them : we must wyt of hym what he meaneth by confoundyng them . whether he meane that the trewe preacher shall make the false prophete ashamed / or that he shall make the people perceyue theyr doctryne for false . As for makyng the false prophetes ashamed : ye se your selfe they be so shamelesse that yt wyll not be , for ye se they wedde nonnes openly . And when they be not ashamed to loke folke in the face , after that shameful sacrylege and abomynable bychery : whereof wyll they be ashamed ? Now if he meane that the trewe preacher shall by thautenque wrytyng , make the people perceyue the false prophete false : I saye that shall he not do by scrypture any thyng more largely , then he shall do the same by the worde of god vnwryten / whyche worde Tyndale wolde haue no man by leue . For the perceyuynge wherof , suppose me now that the trew preacher and the false prophete came to gether to dyspute the trouth in a great audyence of people , vppon some suche artycle as the false prophete wolde teache agaynst the comen fayth of the catholyque chyrche . As let me se for ensample / whether freres may wedde nonnes . Tut nay , that can serue for no sample , yt is to clere and to farre vndysputable for any false prophete to fynde any reasonynge therin / as the thynge whych neuer syth the world was pepled , could haue founden any man to thynke yt lawfull , tyll now / nor yet now neythe fyndeth any that so thynketh , as many wreches as so sayth and so dothe / nor yt were not possyble for the false prophete to fynde any colour therin , but such as all the world wolde wonder at / excepte suche bestes as luste to seyt so for hatered and despyght of honestye . But let vs take therfore for ensample , some suche heresye as hath bene holden & dysputed of olde . And what rather then one of the greattest ? that is to wyt that heresye that Arrius held and his great company , that our sauyour Cryste was not one egall god wyth his father .

Suppose me therfore I saye that some false prophete were so deuelyshe as to preache that poynt agayne / and that he hadde by false preachynge wonne vnto hym ( as Arrius had in his tyme ) myche people all redy of euery state and degre / and that he sholde then come in an open audience of a mayne multytude , to dyspute wyth any trew preacher that wolde offer hym self to defende in that poynte the parte and bylefe of the catholyque chyrche . Now when the trew preacher and the false prophete were comen to gether , and fallen in dyspycyons in two pulpettes on hygh that all the people myght here them / and that the tone alledged dyuerse textes of scrypture for the trouth , & the tother as many for the false parte , and eche of them glose agaynst glose / & when the trew preacher wolde laye therto the consente of all the olde douctours , & of all the catholyque chyrch of Cryste this fyftene hundred yere , the false prophete wolde saye agayne as the false prophete Luther sayeth hym selfe , I set not by Hyerome , I set not by Austayne , I care not for an hunderd Gregories , I not for a thousande Cyprianes , I laye for me the playne worde of god . And for the catholyque chyrche that thou callest the chyrch of Cryste , it is but a multytude of mortale men , whom yf I sholde byleue for the multitude , I must rather by leue the Paynyms or the Machometanys , whych be many mo . And thy sayntes whom thou layest for the be dede / but the worde of god that I laye for me , lyueth and shall lyue for euer . And the chyrch of Cryste is vnknowen to men , but yt is well knowen to god / oute of whose hande no man can take them as our sauyour sayth , but though they slepe now and reste in hope as the scripture sayth , my fleshe shall reste in hope / they shall yet in the daye of the lorde awake at the blast of the trumpe , & euer after lyue wyth the lord in his reigne . And of these I doute not was that holy man Arrius & many a nother holy man of his secte .

Now yf agaynste all this , the trew preacher fall in farther dyspycyons agayne / as well about hys fyrste questyon as about the chyrch , wyth dyuerse other that incydently fall in debate bytwene them / and then for the fynall ende & playneste profe conclude and reste vppon the scrypture , and saye that he hath proued his parte well thereby , and that his textes be clere , and the textes of the tother parte are falsely wrested , and hys owne answeres effectuall , and the tothers but sophystycall / and then the false prophete for hym selfe agayne saye , that he ioyeth mych that theyr dysputacyon is come to so good a poynt / for he knoweth well that he hath alleged the scryptures ryght , and constrewed them in theyr trew sense , and that his aduersary is aduersary of the playne open trouth , and preacheth and teacheth agayn his owne conscyence , and therby synneth agaynste the holy goost , whyche shall neuer be forgeuen in thys worlde nor in the worlde to come / for whose irremyssyble synne hym selfe is full sory , and exhorte hym to remember the false prophete Balam , and beware by tyme , leste he come to lyke ende / and then say that he is yet glad agayn on tother syde , & hyghly thanketh the lord , that hathe by his trew teachyng● the●e ●pened the yi●s of the peple about them , that they now cle●ely se the lyght of trouth / whyche hath now putte awaye the darkenes of theyr ignoraunce , wherin the blynde leders the false popysh prechers haue led them wronge all this whyle byfore / the errour of whom he douteth not but that god hath by hym made them now so playnely to perceyue , that he well dare and so dothe make them all his iudges , whether of them both hath defended his parte better / and therfore prayth them to speke and shew theyr myndes therin / for the apostle sayth while other speke , the congregacyon muste iudge / and euery man ( sayth Luther ) for his owne soule byleueth or byleueth not , vppon his owne parell / & therfore vppon his owne bylyef what he sholde byleue and what not , muste nedes be iudge hym self : now good readers when they thus haue spoken bothe / thynke ye by your trouth that the people vnlerned of theyr audyence , shal be metely to dyscerne and iudge whyther of them hath spoken better , and whyther parte is bytwene than better proued by scrypture ? Are not the people well lykely wyth suche doutefull dyspycyons to be rather ledde out of the trouth , then well confermed in yt ? namely syth many of them shal be corrupted in corners , & drawen in to that false fayth byfore , as the guyse of heretyques is .

But now how myche parell were there more , yf this false prophete sholde as Tyndale putteth his case , come forth with false miracles to / and in the ende of his dysputacyon and his holy e●hortacyon theruppon , saye farther to the people thus : Dere brethern in the loue of the lorde the father & hys onely begoten sonne our sauyour Cryste , that cam into this wreched worlde to shew yt ensample of mekenesse , and not to make hym selfe as great a god as his father , as the popyshe preachers preache vnto you / whych therby make you byleue that our may●●er Cryste passed in pryde the proud angell Lucifer , that for the same pryde was depryued of heuen and throwen in to hell , where he reigneth as prynce vppon all the sonnys of pryde : I am come as ye se sent by the blessed spyryte of the lorde , that hath prayed for you wyth syghes vnspekable , that ye myght be delyuered from thys errour , that this false preacher here & I haue dysputed vppon in your presence / where as you se & I am sure perceyue full well , that I haue wyth the worde of god ouercome hym vtterly though he bable on styll . But yet bycause the trouth standeth not in wordes but in vertue and power of dede : yt pleaseth god that for the strengthynge of weke conscyences , I shall shew you more profe of the glorye of god . For syth this euyll man misse ledde wyth an euyll spyryte , wold lede you styll in a wronge waye , and make you mysse vnderstande the scrypture / sayeng that I take yt wrong & teache you false , where as I made your selfe iudges of the mater : I shall now call god to iudge it hym selfe in your syghte , by some shew of his specyall presens and power . And then after this spoken / sholde call vppe vnto hym some well knowen blynde man , and in the syght of all the people sodaynly make hym se. what sayth Tyndale to thys ? here is hys owne case . were the autentyque scripture in thys case lykely to stay the people ? surely me semeth naye . For though the scrypture be trew in yt selfe : yet syth yt is not so playne b●t that many great dyffycultees aryse thereuppon / in whyche though he , whyche vppon the studye therof hath bystowed many yeres , may perceyue the trew parte from the false : yet vnto the vnlerned yt shal be lykely full ofte , that in suche dyspycyons the false parte maye seme treweste . And then how mych more yf he se in his owne syght myracles set therto .

But now say I that on the tother syde the worde of god vnwryten may stay all to g●ther . For I say that the trewth of that artycle taught and byleued as the chyrche wythout any doute or questyon byleueth / may be so surely grauen in mannys harte , that though he neuer haue redde nor herde neyther any scrypture in that poynte : yet presupposynge yt for an vndouted trouth , he shall set at nought all the false wrested scrypture of the f●lse prophete , and all his false myracles to / and shall euer conster the scripture by the knowen artycle of the catholyque fayth , whych was tought and byleued byfore those textes of scrypture were wryten , and hath yet the same trouth now that yt hadde then , not wythstandynge all the textes that seme to saye the contrary . And by this fayth in the worde of god vnwryten in theyr bokes / and yet wryten in theyre soules : dyd there many martyrs stand and shede theyr blood in wytnesse of the trouth therof , that neuer red nor herde the scrypture in theyr dayes / and wold in the same word vnwryten , wyth goddes grace haue wythstanden false myracles to , whych had yet bene vndoutedly the sorest pynche , sauyng for the mo and more meruelouse myracles that them selfe saw or byleued done on the tother syde for the trouth .

But I say therfore as I haue often sayd byfore , that as for miracles he hath so specially kepte for the profe● of the trouth , that all the myracles whyche the paynyms or other infydeles haue done excepte heretyques / he hath euer made his trew preachers to do greater myracles agaynste them , & by the greater miracles to destroye them / as he dyd in Moyses and in Heliseus , & in his holy apostles , & other holy sayntes after them . But as for heretykes , god hathe neuer sufferd them to do any miracles at all / bycause he wolde haue by the marke of miracles hys very trew chyrche knowen from all the false chyrches of heretyques . Nor neuer shall he suffer them to do any , tyll the great archeheretyke Antycryste come hym selfe / whyche as helpe me god I fere be very nere hys tyme , and that Luther is his very fore goar & his baptiste , to make redy his way in the deserte of this wreched world / and Tindale , frere Huskyn , and Swynglius , his very fals prophetes to preache for hym . But when he shall come hym felfe and worke wonders , to peruert ( yf yt myght be ) the euery chosen to : yet shall he not worke miracles alone , but god shall for his chyrche in miracles farre passe hym / for anger whereof he shall kyll them and truste all in strength of sword . And bycause he shall haue so many wayes to turne the peple wronge : god shall not suffer the wreche longe , but shall shorten his dayes / and puttynge strength and miracle to gether , shall kyll hym wyth the spiryte or blaste of hys holy mouth . And thus good readers ye playnely now perceyue that syth the scrypture alone agaynst heretyques and miracles maye not suffyciently serue to vnlerned people , otherwyse then maye the bylyefe wythout the scripture / and also that heretykes shall do no miracles tyll Antecryste come / and yet then shall haue also greater miracles wrought agaynste hym , and that his tyme shal be but shorte , and hym selfe fynally by miracle destroyed and kylled : ye se proued playnely , the Tyndales secunde reason wyth whych he wold proue that the apostles lefte no necessary thynge vnwriten , hath in yt no reason at all .

Tyndale .

Some man wolde aske , how dyd god contynue his generacyon from Adam to Noe , and from Noe to Abraam , and so to Moyses without writyng but with teachynge fro mouth to mouth . I answere fyrste that there was no scrypture in the worlde all the whyle / that shall they proue when our lady hath a new sonne .

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Tyndale sayth that some man wolde aske this question . But he knoweth well inough that I laye this agaynst hym in my dialoge , bycause he so precysely sayth that nothynge maye be certaynely knowen to be byleued but by scrypture . And now he answereth me that our ladye shall haue a newe sonne , ere I can proue that there was not scripture from the bygynnynge . He wayeth his wordes wysely , when he sayth that our lady shall haue a new sonne fyrst / whych he myght as well say by euery woman that is passed this world , sauyng that our lady neuer had a new sonne bysyde our sauyour Criste , is none artycle of his false fayth , as hym selfe playnely confesseth / bycause yt is not playnely wryten in scrypture .

But is not this a proper answere now ? where as agaynst hys false grounde that there can be no trewe fayth but yf it be wryten in scrypture , I obiected agaynste hym the fayth of many good faythfull men / in whose dayes we can not preue that theyr fayth was wryten , & yet we dowte not but that they were good & faythfull : he sayth I can not proue that they had no scrypture . If he wyll saye ( as he doeth ) that they coude haue no good and sure fayth wythout scrypture / and wyll also confesse ( as he doth ) that they had good and sure fayth : he must hym selfe proue that they had scrypture / and not tell me that our lady shall haue a newe sone ere I proue that they had no scrypture . For it is inough for me , that our lady shall haue two new sonnes ere Tindale proue that some of those faythfull folke in the fyrst or seconde generacyon , had any wrytynge at all / and that our lady shall haue fyue new sonnes , ere Tyndale proue that the faythfull people had before Moyses dayes and scrypture suche as Tyndale muste mene , but yf he go about to begyle vs wyth sophystycall equyuocacion . For our mater is not of scrypture , as it is taken for bare wrytynge , suche as euery scryueners boye wryteth in hys maysters shoppe / but as it sygnyfyeth suche holy wrytynge as god causeth to be wryten & byndeth folke to byleue , vppon the parell of theyr soule helth . And then I saye yet agayne that it is inough for me that our lady shall haue fyfcene new sonnys , ere Tyndale be able to proue me that some of those whom I alledge & he confesseth for faythfull folke , had any suche scrypture at all .

And Tyndale felynge full well that thys poynte prykketh hym , shrynketh hyther and thyder thereat , and seketh many shyftes . And for all the shyftes that he fyndeth here , bycause they all satysfye not hym selfe : he is fayne a●terwarde in hys answere to my dyaloge , to seke vp some new / & sayth that in Noes dayes when the flode came , there were no mo lefte that byleued ryght but those that were saued in the shyppe . In whyche place he iesteth vppon that vertuose connynge man Nicholas de lira , sayeng Lira delirat . But it is more easy for Tyndale to make a mokke vppon hys name / then to obtayne his vertue and lernyng . But what winneth Tyndale by that answere there ? yf he sayed trewe / yet were he neuer the nere . For yf the hole worlde were at that tyme fallen from the fayth saue those few : yet were it for my purpose suffycyent that the trewe fayth had fyrste from god to man , and so forth fro man to man , com● by mouth without scrypture vnto those few / though all the remanaunt that hadde herde thereof hadde then bene fallen fro the bylyefe thereof , excepte onely those few / as all the knowen nacions of the worlde that hath herd of Crystes fayth and holy scrypture to , be now fallen from both twayne , saue onely these few that yet remayne . And of them , some fall from the fayth and from th effecte of scrypture by false interpretacyon / as they that fall fro the sacramentes , & that so constre the scrypture , that they wolde make yt saye that freres may wedde nonnes . Of both whych sortes yf there went so many away that the remanaunt whyche were lefte were as few as were taken into Noes shyppe : yet shold alway those few be the very chyrch of god vppon erth bycause of the ryght bylyef , all though that of those few some were nought of lyuyng . And amonge them shold there myracles of god contynue , to shew the presence of god , and strength them in the fayth , & make his chyrche knowen / that such as are out , may fynde the way to yt to come in yf they wyll / as he ceaced not to walke wyth the Iewes by miracles all though ther were many nought , tyll he quyte forsoke them / whyche by his promyse he shall neuer do Crystes catholyque chyrche .

Tyndale .

God taught Adam greater thynges then to wrytte .

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If he meane of spirytuall reuelacyons , it maketh lytle to the purpose / yf of worldely thynges , I thynke well he taught hym thynges of greater necessyte , as peraduenture tyllage of the ●●●●●de . But as for wrytynge , I wene as long as he lyued , was founden yet longe after Adams dayes . For though Adam hadde as g●●at a wit as any man hath hadde synnys : yet he founde not out euery thyng that many a more mene wyt hath founden synnys / excepte Tyndale tell vs that Adam prented bokes , and made glasses , and shotte gonnes to .

Tyndale .

And that there was writyng in the world long ere Abraam , ye and ere Noe , do storyes testyfye .

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Full well . But there is none of those storyes any thynge sybbe to saynt Iohnns gospell . He fyndeth not in them : Qu● vidit testimonium perhibuit / nor , verum est testimonium eius .

There were storyes , whyche as saynte Austayne sayth , wrote of thynges done thousandes of yeres byfore the world was made . And though yt were proued as yt is not , that there were wrytynge from the bygynnynge : yet as I sayed byfore , yt wolde not proue that there was holy scrypture that tyme / whyche is the onely wrytynge that muste be proued , or ellys all that he proueth is as good vnproued .

Tyndale .

Not wythstandynge though there hadde bene no wrytynge : the preachers were euer prophetes gloryouse in doynge myracles , wherewyth they confyrmed theyr preachynge .

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Thys is ryght well sayed and very largely / and lakketh nothynge now , but euen to be as well and largely proued . whych when he shall so largely proue me by playne scripture ( wythout whych by Luthers owne rule , Luthers owne scoler maye not loke to be byleued ) he shall haue myche a do I trow . For he sayth that by all this tyme whyche was the space of so many hundred yeres , the preachers were euer prophetes and gloryouse in doynge of miracls , wherwyth they confermed theyr preachynge . Ueryly Noe we fynde that he confyrmed his preachynge wyth myracle , that was wyth the flode that drowned the whole worlde . But ellys in that age from Adam to his day / what myracles fyndeth Tyndale done by the preachers ? Now from Noe to Abraam , how many myracles fyndeth he done by the preachers . Nor from Abraam to Moyses neyther , he fyndeth not very many / so that yt wyll I wene be very harde for hym to proue , that the preachers dyd alwaye proue all that whyle theyr preachynge by myracles .

But I am very glad to here hym saye so / and am●●te●ts to discharge hym of the profe , and agre that he sayeth trouth . And then say I that syth hym selfe agreeth that for the profe of the prechers doctryne , prechynge all one thynge downe fro generacyon to generacyon by the space of so many hundred yeres , holy preachers and myracles were so necessary , that for the necessyte therof he presumeth that it was so : it is reason that he agre also , that by thys hole tyme of fyftene hundred yeres of Crystes chyrche , holy preachers wyth myracles haue ben as necessary . And then syth he muste also graunte that god hath had as mych cure of the chyrche of hys sonne , as he had of any chyrche before : he muste graunte that of eche thynge necessary god hath as well prouyded for it , as euer he dyd for any . wherof it foloweth that syth holy preachers and myracles were alwaye so necessary in the other , that god alwaye prouyded them so plentuousely , that they neuer lakked : he hath in lyke wyse all thys whyle prouyded , that in hys owne chyrche holy preachers and myracles haue also contynued and haue neuer lacked . And then foloweth forther , that syth in all thys whyle there hath neuer ben in any chyrche of heretykes ( as many as haue ben of them ) neyther saynt nor myracle / but bothe twayne euer plentuousely contynued in thys onely chyrche , whyche is the comen knowen catholyke chyrche of Cryste : theruppon foloweth it fynally , that onely it is the trewe chyrche of god / and that all the other be false chyrches of the deuyll .

Now yf Tyndale wyll saye that it is now not lyke / for there is no cause neyther of holy preachers nor miracles , bycause we haue the scryptures / as Abraam sayed vnto the ryche gloton that lay in hell and wolde haue Lazarus sent into his fathers howse to gyue hys brethern warnyng , Lucae . 1● they haue all redy Moyses and the prophetes / and yf they byleue not them , no more wyll they byleue one that were come hense neyther : thys wyll not serue Tyndale . For they were not excusable whyche then hadde the scryptures , consyderynge that the scrypture had bene and yet euery age were well testyfyed with myracles , in that the prophetes and prechers therof , and the places where it was preched and occupyed in goddys seruyce , were by god illustrate and set out wyth myracles / in so mych that he dyd not onely sende in to the worlde his prophetes and trewe preachers with myracles , 4. Regum . 13. but also by the bon●s of them raysed and sent in to the worlde dede men also , to gyue the worlde warnynge to , though he lysted not to do so mych at that wreches request● And fynally when all was to lytle , and that they fell to false constrewynge of the scrypture , and so byganne to multyply theyr false doctryne , that they made the better byleuynge folke the fewer and the false parte the greater : he taryed not longe but cam hym selfe to reforme yt & bygynne his owne specyall chyrche wyth hys owne preachynge and hys holy apostles / not wyth bare dyspycyons and berynge men in hande the wordes of the scryptrue were playne inough / but wyth plentuouse miracles , to reproue the false doctryne of the false pharysees that had bygonne to teache contrary to tehyr olde holy fathers byfore . And thus hath god euer synnis sent holy sayntes in to his chyrch , as the reason of his goodnesse requyred that he shold . And where these new pharisees these manyfolde sectes of heretykes , both now do , and fro the bygynnynge haue done , mysse constre the scrypture of god agaynst the mynde of Cryste and his apostles : our lord sendeth and euer hath sent not onely good vertuous preachers agaynste them , but also reproueth and euer hath reproued theyr moste commen heresyes agaynste sayntes and sacramentes wyth dayly meruelouse miracles / and neyther sufferth nor neuer ●uffred any one to be wrought amonge all them , but suche as he worketh sometyme , where he maketh an image to speke , or the blessed sacrament to blede , to detecte theyr dyspyghtfull dealynge , and make them be burned therfore / where as they shall neuer fynde in scrypture that euer god suffred false miracle eyther by man or deuyll to be done to the confusyon of his trew prophete . And therfore yt is playne yet agayne that t●e catholyke chyrch is the trew chyrche , and all these heretykes congregacyons false .

Tyndale .

And beyonde that , god wrote his testament vnto them allway , both what to do , and what to byleue euen in sacramentes . 〈◊〉 the sacrifices whych god 〈◊〉 Adams sonnes , were no dumme popetrye or superstycyouse maho●et●ye , but sygnes of the testament of god / and in them they red the worde of god as we do in bokes .

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Tyndale telleth vs here a nother fayre tale . But in thys I say as I sayed byfore in the tother / that hys tale lakketh but all that yt sholde haue , that is to 〈◊〉 the profe . For ye shall here now how he wolde seme to proue yt .

Tyndale .

The testament whyche god made wyth Noe , that he wolde no mo●e drowne the worlde wyth water / he wrote in the sacrament of the raynebowe . And the appoyntement made betwene hym and Abraam / he wrote in the sacrament of cyrcumcysyon . And therfore sayed Steuen , Actes .vij. he gaue them the testament of cyrcumcysyon / not that the outwarde cyrcumcysyon was the hole testament / but the sacrament or sygne therof . For cyrcumcysyon preached goddys worde vnto them as I haue in other places declared .

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Is not this well proued now . He sheweth vs of sacrifices of cyrcumcisyon , and of the raynebowe / whyche he coupleth wyth sacryfyces and circumcysyon , and calleth yt a sacrament lyke the tother , bycause he wolde haue vs wene that no sacrament eyther then dyd or now doth , any more profyt the soule then doth the raynebowe . whyche raynebow whether god made new to make men sure of his promyse by the meruelouse new syght therof , or that it beynge but an apparaunce naturall by the reflexyon of the sonne / I wyll not dyspute bycause of other mennys wrytynge . But thys I wote well , I se no man wryte therof that euer saw yt afore .

Nor yf it hadde neuer be sene yet / there wolde I wene for all the naturall reasons that men make now therfore , neuer a man haue myssed yt . But as I saye were yt the tone were yt the tother / god eyther made yt or appoynted yt but for a sygne of bodely helth and the worlde , to be preserued from vnyuersall flode / where as sacryfyces and cyrcumcysyon & mych more the blessed sacramentes of Crystes chyrche , perteyne to the soule helth / not as bare sygnes , but as thynges well helpyng there vnto / as prayour doth and all reuerent maner and deuout fashyon vsed by man therein . But thys is all Tyndales purpose to pull down the sacramentes and haue them taken for bare symple sygnes . For surely to couple the sacryfyce of Ab●ll or the sacrament of circumcysyon wyth the sygne of the raynebow / is almoste as well lykened as to lyken the matens that men synge at chyrche , or the blessed sacrament at the masse , to the sygne of the sarasons hed .

But now consyder how well these thynges proue his goostly purpose . He sayth that from Adam to Moyses god taught them in sacramentes alwaye both what they shold do & what they sholde byleue / and he proueth yt bycause god dyd so in thre . And so this is hys argument , god dyd so ●hryes , ergo he dyd so a●way / god dyd s● 〈◊〉 thre , ergo he dyd so in al / god in sacramentes taught them some thynges , ergo in sacramentes he taught them all thynges .

where fyndeth Tyndale that god taught Abraam , what thynge the cyrcumcysyon sholde sygnyfye , or wherfore he sholde do yt , other then that he wolde haue hym and all hys do yt / what morall vertue he shold vnderstande therby , as the cuttynge of and ca●tynge awaye of all superfluouse carnall thynges , or any suche other thynge , what dyd he teche hym . Or where fyndeth he that to the people was any suche thynge preached therby , when the circumcisyon was geuen and commaunded .

In the sacryfyce of Abell in kyllynge and offerynge the bestes / where fyndeth Tyndale that there was taught vnto Abell or any man ellys , that yt sholde sygnyfye the kyllyng of fleshely lustes or any suche other thynges / sauynge that they sholde serue god in that maner , whyche yet we rather gather by reason then fynde yt wryten in scrypture .

where fyndeth he that Abraam was taught , that in offerynge vppe his sonne Isaac , and then the shepe in hys stede / yt sholde sygnyfye the offerynge of Cryste vppon the crosse , or any thyng ellys , but his thankfull obedyence and profe of his faste fayth and hope in god .

And though yt may appere in euery sacryfyce and in euery prayour vnto god , that men sholde loue god aboue all thynge : yet in what sacrifyce were they lerned to loue theyr neyghboure ?

Thys is a vayne tale of Tyndale whyche he shall neuer proue whyle he lyueth . And yet the better he proueth it yf he coulde proue yt / the worse sholde he make his mater . For if sacramentes were wyth them in all that tyme able to be profytable wythout scrypture : then so may oures be now profytable wythout scrypture / excepte he fynde therfore a prohybycyon in scrypture , whyche neyther he nor none of hys felowes euer founde yet , nor neuer shall fynde whyle they lyue . For where as they lay for a prohybycyon the wordes of Moyses in the Deuteronomy / commaundynge that no man shall adde nor mynyshe● they that laye that texte for a prohybycyon of oure sacramentes vnwryten , be as I shall shew you afterwarde surely to madde to lyue .

Now seeth Tyndale this to be very trouth hym self , th●● yf sacramentes were wythout scrypture profytable vnto them , and stode them in the stede of scrypture : yt myght be by the same reason in lykewyse profytable to vs , and stande vs instede , whyche thynge destroyeth all his whole purpose . And therfore to answere that wythall / he sayth that so yt myght in dede , yf that the wykked pope hadde not taken away the sygnyfycacyons of our sacramentes from vs , as he hath robbed vs ( sayth Tyndale ) of the trēw sence of all the scrypture .

Tyndale muste here tell vs whyche pope hath taken from vs the sygnyfycacyon of the sacramentes , and robbed from vs the trew sence of the scrypture . If any pope this .viii. hunderd yere ( by all whych tyme Tyndale sayth they haue ben all nought ) haue done any thyng therin contrary to the old popes that were by the space of .vii. hundred yere nexte byfore that , which popes he denyeth not for good nor can not deny : let hym tell whyche , and wherin , and wherby he can proue yt . But that am I sure he shall neuer shew whyle he lyueth . For I wote well that the olde holy workes that haue bene made , as well by olde holy popes , as saynte Gregory , saynt Leo , and other / as by the olde holy doctours , as saynt Hyerom , saynt Austayne● and other , concernynge as well the sygnyfycacyons of sacramentes , as the trew sence of scrypture : do consent and agre to gether agaynst Tyndale and Luther and frere Huskyn and all theyr fonde felowes . And yf Tyndale saye nay : lette hym shew me whyche olde holy popes were they , that euer hylde that the sacramentes of the auter is suche a bare symple sygne , and sette but onely to sygnyfye the memoryall of Cry●tes passyon , and vnyte of hym and vs , wyth loue and concorde amonge our selfe / & that it were synne to thinke yt were not brede styll as Luther sayth , or to thynke yt were any thynge ellys , as Tyndale & frere Huskyn sayth / and great synne to worshyppe yt , as Luther Huskyn , and Tyndale saye . And as concernynge the trew sence of scripture , whych he sayth the pope hath robbed from vs / and meaneth the popes of eyght hundred yere last passed , whyche trew sence Tyndale now bryngeth agayne : let hym shew then whyche popes of the tother seuen hundred yere byfore , or whyche holy doctours of all that longe tyme byfore / dyd constre the scrypture so , that any of them wold saye that a monke myght wedde a nonne . And lo thus ye se good readers in what worshyppefull wyse Tyndale proueth all his purpose . But now wyll we go farther .

Tyndale .

But in the tyme of Moyses when the congregacion was increaced , that they must haue many preachers and also rulers temporall : then all was receyued in scrypture .

More .

Here is hys hole grounde wheruppon he wyll anone conclude , that syth all was then receyued in scrypture amonge the iewes / so must it folowe that all was receyued by scrypture amonge crysten men . whyche foloweth not as I wyll after shewe you , though he sayed trew / in that he sayth that in the tyme of Moyses all was receyued in scrypture .

But syth that theruppon is all hys hole mater grounded : let hym proue you that poynte fyrste . For ye consyder well that it is not inough to hym that they then receyued scrypture / but he must proue that then they receyued all in scry●ture / and that euery thyng● that they sholde do or byleue , was then delyuered them in scrypture . And therfore syth that thys is the poynt and the thynge that he sayth and proueth not : let hym proue you thys well fyrste , and then go forther in goddys name . what profe he bryngeth ye sh●ll se / & how trewe it is ye shall sone iudge . Thus he sayth .

Tyndale .

All was then receyued in scrypture / in so mych that Cryste and his apostles myghte not haue ben byleued without scrypture for all theyr myracles .

Lo thys is all the hole profe that euer he bryngeth forth for thys poynte , wheruppon hys hole purpose hangeth . And in dede it were somwhat / if it were as trew as it is false For he neyther hath any scripture to proue it / & all reason is quyte agaynste it . Fyrste as for scrypture , though Cryste shewed to the iewes as the trouth was , that the scrypture made mencyon of hym : yet he neuer sayed vnto them as Tindale sayeth , that he myght not be byleued els / nor no scrypture so sayth . He sayeth no more of scrypture then of saynte Iohn the baptyste . For he sayeth that the scrypture ●ereth wytnesse of hym , and so sayth he of ●aynt Iohn to .

But bycause Tyndale compareth the scrypture with myracles , and setteth so lytell by goddes worde vnwryten : Cryste sayed sumwhat more by myracles and by hys owne worde at that tyme vnwryten , then he sayd eyther by saynte Iohn or by the scripture eyther . Iohan. 15. For he sayed of those twayne● that yf eyther of bothe had lakked / they ●●d not ben in the synne of infydelite . And he sayth not so mych of saynt Iohn , nor of the scrypture neyther .

Now reason is clere agaynste Tyndale , in that he sayth that Cryste and his apostles could not be byleued for all the miracles . For though god hadde neuer geuen warnyng by Moyses , that there sholde come a nother prophete : yet excepte god had expressely sayd that he wolde neuer sende mo ( whyche he sayed not ) what sholde let Cryste to be byleued commynge wyth miracles / and though he wolde teache in the bylyefe , not contrary artycles to those that were byfore taught , but other reuelacyons farther that were not taught byfore , and in workes make what chaunge that god lyste to commaunde . Goddes worde when yt was brought vnto the people by Moyses / was yt byleued for goddes sake or for Moyses ? If for goddes sake / then though Cryste had not bene god as he was : yet syth god sent hym wyth miracles as he sent Moyses , what sholde lette hym to be byleued as well as Moyses , though he hadde neuer be spoken of byfore ? Now yf for Moyses sake / Cryste was as good as Moyses was , all hadde he not ben god / and incomparably better syth he was god . why coulde he not then haue ben byleued wythoute the wytnesse of Moyses , commynge wyth miracles mo then euer Moyses dyd or all the prophetes bysyde / and namely doyenge so many in his owne name .

And bycause that in the credence geuen vnto Cryste● Tyndale geueth so great preemynens to the scrypture aboue the myracles of Cryste / that is to saye to the worde of god wryten aboue wonderfull workes of god done : lette Tyndale vnderstande that the cause why the wytnesse of scrypture holpe vnto the credence of Cryste , was by reason of miracle / that is to wyt bycause yt prophecyed of hym . whyche thyng that shall come so longe after / is a great miracle .

And yet farther they that wolde not byleue in Cryste for hys miracles / wolde not byleue in hym for the scrypture neyther .

And yet for the fynall confutacyon of Tyndales foly , in sayeng that Cryste for all his miracles coulde not haue ben byleued but for the scrypture : euery fole knoweth that all the worlde saue the Iewes in theyr turnynge to Crystes bylyefe , were not led by the scrypture but by the miracles / and byleued not Cryste for the scrypture , but byleued the scrypture for Cryste , & Cryste for the myracles . And the Iewes whyche people moste byleued the scrypture / of them I saye fewest byleued in Cryste .

Tyndale .

Wherfore for as myche Crystes congregacyon is spredde abrode into all the worlde , mych broder then Moyses / and in as mych as we haue not the olde testament onely but also the new , wherin all thynges are opened so rychely and all fullfylled , that byfore was promysed / and in so mych that there is no promyse byhynde of ought to be shewed more saue the resurreccyon / ye and seynge that Criste and all the apostles with all the angellis of heuen yf they were here , coulde preache no more then is preached of necessyte to our soules : how then sholde we receyue a new artycle of our fayth wythout scrypture , as profytable vnto my soule as smoke for sore yies .

More .

Here Tyndale maketh hys conclusyon , that syth Moyses bycause the people was encreaced , so fully receyued all thynges necessarye to be byleued in scrypture , that Cryste hym selfe myghte not haue be byleued wythoute scrypture ( whyche thynge is very false ) therfore yt foloweth that Cristes congregacyon hath all thynges necessary to be byleued wryten in scrypture / whyche thynge is as false , and reason yt is that yt be false , when he concludeth yt vppon false . But Tyndale perceyuyng well hym selfe how fals his fundacyon is , & how feble hys byeldynge is that he setteth theruppon : hath therfore to make yt stande the surer , vndershoren & vnderpropped it wyth certayne other stronge postes made of roten redys .

One is that all thynges be now bysyde the olde testament , opened rychely in the new testament , that byfore were promysed . Thys vnderpropper is not very proper for to bere vppe his byldynge / for yt is the selfe same thynge that is in questyon . For we saye that yf he take the new testament for the boke of that scrypture wryten : he muste not onely saye but also proue , that euery thynge is opened therein , that of necessyte for our soule helth is to be byleued or done / & this is the thynge selfe that is in debate . And therfore whyle he doth but tell vs and proue it not / and so vnderproppeth his assercyon wyth yt selfe : he sheweth hym self as wyse , as one that leste his roten house sholde fall , wold go about to take downe the roefe , and pull vppe the groundsell to vndershore the sydes wyth the same .

Then setteth he to yt a nother shorer , that all thynge is in the new testament fulfylled that was promysed byfore / & also that there is no promise byhynde of ought to be she●ed more , saue the resurreccyon . Nowe this shorer ys so surely sette , that yt is shortely blowen downe quyte , yf a man say no more but what than . For bysydes that , as there laye mo promyses in the olde testament then euery man well vnderstode / so maye there yet peraduenture lye mo promyses vnperceyued yet , eyther by Tyndale or me , both in the old and in the new . But I saye bysydes this / and bysyde this also that Tyndale sayth here vntrew ( for bysyde the resurreccion there are yet vnfulfylled as well dyuerse promyses of tokens & thynges that shall come byfore the resurreccyon , & all those thynges perde that are promised to come after , as the iudgement yt selfe , and blesse or payne euerlastynge to the iudged bodyes ) but yet I saye bysyde all this / what yf all the promyses be fulfylled sauynge the resurreccyon : dothe that proue that there coulde be nothynge of necessyte byleued wythoute scrypture ? Is there nothynge to be byleued but promyses ? If god tell me a thynge or byd me do a thynge / am I not bounde to byleue the tone nor to do the tother bycause they be no promyses ? If Tyndale speke wysely in thys , I muste nedes confesse my foly / for in good fayth I can se no wyt therein .

But fynally he setteth to a myghty stronge poste able to bere downe all , when he sayth that Cryste , and all hys apostles , and all the angellys of heuen , coulde preache no more then is preached of necessyte to our soules . And therfore● and for all the wyse and well framed reasons whyche I haue reproued , and proued vnresonable byfore : he sayth that to receyue a new artycle of fayth wythout scrypture , were as profytable for our soules as smoke for sore yies

This is a substauncy all shorer lo , and very surely set I assure you . For fyrste I myght agre all that he sayeth and his purpose neuer the more proued . For where he sayeth that all is all redy preached that is necessary or can be necessarie to the soule : yf I wold answere and say , that is very trew , all suche thynges is all redy preached , but all suche preachyng is not wryten / where were now Tyndales conclusyon ? But I wyll not be so madde to graunte hym that all is eyther writen or preached eyther , that can be of necessyte to mannes soule . For who wolde be so madde to thynke that god knoweth not many thynges that we know not / and that he can yf yt please hym reuele and shew vs any of those , and commaunde vs to byleue them when so euer he lyste . And when he so wold do / then were they of necessyte to our soules saluacyon to be byleued . And he maye when yt please hym commaunde vs to do some other thynges that he hath not commaunded yet / and then sholde we be bounde to do them . And he maye commaunde to leue vndone some thynges that he hath byfore commaunded to be done / and then sh●ld● we be bounden to leue them vndone . And this is so playne and euydent to euery man , that hath any sparke of reason in his hedde / that I wonder where Tyndale hadde lefte his wyt when he wrote thys ?

And this was also a wyse temperaunce of the mater that he sayeth for these wyse causes , that yt were as holsome for our soules as smoke for sore yies , yf we receyued any newe artycles of fayth wythout scripture . If the yien of his soule were not sore blered or starke blynde wyth the smo●e o● the smoky fyre of hell / he wolde sone haue sene wyth hys two yien hys two folyes in these few wordes . For he sayth if we receyued a new artycle wythout scrypture / wherby he confesseth that yf god wyll geue vs a new artycle in scrypture , as he gaue Moyses / yt were not vnholesome . And what can he then saye but yf god gyue yt wythout scrypture , he must be byleued / but yf Tyndale dare saye that the tre●th of god do depende vpon his wrytynge , and that his worde be nought worth tyll yt be wryten ? A nother fol● is thys , that he sayth yf we receyue a new article / and then all the samples● that he putteth be olde / and we shall putte hym some other as old .

Tyndale .

What holpe yt me to byleue that our ladyes bodye is in heuen .

More .

If thys be a new byleued artycle / lette Tyndale tell when thys bylyef beganne / & he shall fynde that yt hath ben thus byleued euen from the tyme of her deceace . And now the thyng that almoste .xv. C. yere hath ben byleued / he calleth a ne● artycle . But now how lyke is thys bylyef of this newe artycle of .xv. hund●ed yere olde , vnto hys ensample of smoke & sore yies . For fyrste yf yt holpe hym not / yet at the leste yt hu●ted hym not as sm●ke doth sore yies . But syth it is trew and taught vnto the chyrche by the spyryt●●f god , whyche ledeth the chyrche int● euery tro●th / and ●h●●hyrche grow● into the consent and argument the●of by the same spiryte of● concorde and agrement , whych maketh all the house of on● my●de / and though the bylefe therof were very new : yet yt helpeth hym and doth hym good to byleue yt / as yt helpeth hym and doth hym good yf he byleue other trouthes whych god hath reueled and shewed by wrytynge byfore / excepte Tyndale trust not god vppon his word , but yf he geue hym his wrytynge there vppon and his letters patentes vnder his great seale . For ellys why sholde yt not helpe hym as mych to byleue that our ladyes body and soule is in heuen , syth god hath taught his chyrche so to byleue / as yt helpeth hym to byleue that Enoch or Hely , is bodye & soule in paradyse , syth he maye do the tone that doth the tother . And he sayth the tone that sayth the tother / though he saye them not bothe in one maner , but the tone by wrytynge the tother by mouth . For the inwarde inspiracyon of hys spyryte / is his mouth vnto his resonable creatures .

How be yt he sayth and speketh in dede the tone thynge and the tother , bothe of one fashyon . For yf he speke / he but inspyreth his worde in to some creature that speketh yt out . And as he speketh he wryteth . And therfore who so better byleueth the word of god wryten , them the worde of god vnwryten / that is to wyt the scripture , then the inspyracyon : he byleueth better the creature that wrote it , then god hym self that inspyred yt .

If Tyndale wyll auoyde thys and say , nay / but I byleue better these men that wrote the tone of Enoch and Hely , then I beleue th●se men that tell me the tother of our lady : then muste Tyndale tell vs why he better byleueth those then these . wherin what hath he to saye , but that those that wrote it in the scrypture were inspyred of god and so he byleueth it , as the worde not of men but of god . Then answere we agayne / that they that tell me the tother of our lady , were inspyred of god / and therfore it helpeth hym to byleue it as the worde not of menne but of god . If he aske how shall he know that god inspyred the men that tell hym the tale of our lady : we must aske hym agayne , how knoweth he that god inspyred them that wrote the tale of Enoch or Hely . If he say that he knoweth it bycause it is holy scrypture : we then shall aske hym ferther how he knoweth that it is holy scrypture . And then is he dreuen to the poynt , that when he hath all do●● / he muste be fayne to fle to the chyrche , and say that he know●●h ●● by the chyrche . And when he shall shewe you by whych● chyrche he knoweth it : he muste nedys shew you some chyrch● whyche hym self● may knowe / for ellys how sholde any suche chyrche tell it hym as hym selfe knoweth not ? And when he sheweth you any knowen chyrche / he is dowble confounded . For bothe he destroyeth hys heresye that no chyrche sholde be byleued but electes / and also shall be dreuen to confesse , that he knoweth the scrypture by our chyrche / that is to wyt Crystes catholyke chyrche whych he refuseth . And then shall we ferther tell hym for hys thyrde confusyon , that by the same selfe chyrche doeth he knowe that god hath inspyred that other artycle of our lady . And yet for his fourth confusyon , we shall tell hym ferther , that the selfe same scrypture whyche hym selfe by the meane of the chyrches techynge byleueth to be the worde of god , techeth hym also to byleue , that thys thynge whyche yt byleueth of our lady , is eyther good to byleue or at the lestewyse not euyll , nor lyke smoke to sore eyes / syth our sauyour hym selfe in the same scrypture sayth , that the spyryte of god shall teche them all trouth , and lede them into euery trouth and that for euer / syth hym selfe there promyseth that he wyll not leue them , but be wyth them for euer vnto the worldes ende .

And thus good crysten ●eaders ye se to what wourshypfull conclusyon , wyth a fourfolde confusyon . Tyndale hath brought hym selfe , wyth layenge thys artycle wherby he wolde mynysshe the wourshyppe of our most blessed lady .

But lykewyse as he speketh here of the assumpcyon of our lady / the bylefe wherof he wolde sholde seme to serue of nought : the same sayth he in dyuerse places of the bylefe of the perpetuall vyrgynyte of our lady / sayenge , that it is nothynge pertaynynge to the saluacyon of our soule . But I saye that the catholyke chyrche of Cryste byleueth , that the bylefe therof beynge ( as it is , and from the begynnyng hath ben ) taught by the holy goost / so perteyneth to the saluacion of our soules , that the contrary bylefe perteyneth to the dampnacyon of our soules yf heresye be dampnable . And that thys is no new artycle , well appereth by that that the olde holy doctour saynt Hierome so ferforth rekened it for heresye , that he wrote an hole boke agaynste the olde heretyke Heluidius for the confutacyon of the heresye . In which vertuouse boke saynt Hierom neyther proueth nor goeth aboute to proue her perpetuall vyrgi●yte by s●rypture / but onely proueth that the places of scrypt●re whyche ●●●●●dius brought forth for the contrary , were not effectu●●● 〈◊〉 proue hys malycyouse purpose , agaynste the comen r●●●●ued fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche . Agaynste whyche we may be very sure that the scrypture neuer speketh in dede / how apparent so euer an heretyke make it seme .

For lykewyse as though a sophyster wolde wyth a fonde argument , proue vnto a symple soule that two egges were thre / bycause that there is one , and there be twayne , and one and twayne make thre : that symple vnlerned man , though he lakke lernynge to soyle his fonde argument / hath yet wyt inough to laugh thereat , and to ete the two egges hym self , and byd the sophyster take and ete the thyrde . So is euery faythfull man as sure in the syghte of hys soule , how apparently so euer an heretyke argue by scrypture to the contrary , that the comen fayth of Crystes catholyke chyrche is out of questyon trewe / and that the scripture vnderstanden ryght , is neuer therto contrary / syth he woteth well bothe by hys fayth and by the scrypture , that the chyrche is taught hys fayth by god and hys holy spyryte / accordynge to Crystes promyse that can neuer be false / and woteth well also that god neuer techeth agaynste the trouth , nor wryteth agaynst hys worde , but that the contraryete that semeth , arryseth of heretykes malycyouse soteltye , or as holy saynte Austayne sayth , for lakke of well vnderstandyng . whych mysse vnder standynge may sone mysse lede y● man whych lyst to leue the fayth of Crystes catholyque chyrche , and lene to the doctryne of a false heretyque or to the lykynge his owne wyt .

But for bycause Tyndale wyll when we haue all sayed , stykke styll at one poynt / and aske vs what shall profyte his soule to byleue that our ladye is in heuen bodye and soule ( of whyche he playnely ●yleueth the contrary , bothe for her bodye and her soule / for he byleueth wyth Luther , that all soules slepe , and slepe shall tyll the daye of dome ) and wyll aske vs also what profyteth hym to byleue that our ladye was a perpetuall virgyne and neuer hadde chylde but Cryste / syth none of those both articles is proued by playne scrypture / and we myght be saued well inough though our ladyes body cam not in heuen tyll domes day / & also though she hadde mo sonnes then one and mo husbandes to : I wyll aske hym then agayne , what profyteth hym to byleue that our sauyour hym selfe dyed a virgyne , and neuer had wyfe nor chylde / syth that artycle is not proued by very playne scripture neyther : & he myght by his passion haue wrought our redempcion , all though he had wedded & goten chyldren to

And in good fayth I wene we shall se those folke fall so frantyque ones / that they shall not let at laste , to say he dyd so to / and bydde vs go proue the contrarye by scrypture , or ellys they be at theyr angelycall lybertye to byleue whyche waye they lyste . But now come we to Tyndales other example that he putteth of purgatorye .

Tyndale .

What am I the better for the bylyefe of purgatorye .

More .

In good fayth not the better of an halfpeny , whyle ye by leue yt no better then ye do . But surely if ye byleued yt well / ye myghte be bothe the better for purgatorye and the farther from hell .

Tyndale .

To fere men wyth , thou wylte saye .

More .

He maketh men answere as yt pleaseth hym selfe . But we wyll not saye so / for it were a folyshe sayeng to say , Tyndale is the better for the bylyefe of purgatorye to fere men wyth . what fole wolde saye so but Tyndale ? For Tyndals bylyef can not fere folke , no more then other mennys bylyef fereth Tyndale / nor Tyndale is not the better though other men be aferde . And therfore that questyon as he folyshely frameth yt , so he folyshely answereth yt .

But I saye that purgatory is ordeyned for the punyshement of suche synnys , as were eyther venyall in the bygynnynge / or from mortall turned to venyall by the forgyuenesse of the mortalyte .

And I saye that the bylyefe th●rof profyteth two maner of wyse . One wyse in that yt maketh a man to be preserued thens , or to be the lesse whyle there / by that yt maketh hym do penaunce and good workes here , of whiche two thynges Tyndale abhorreth to here .

A nother waye the bylyefe therof profyteth , in that as for so farre forth yt kepeth the byleuer from hell / into the fyre wherof for the contrary bylyefe and heresye holden agaynst yt , he sholde ellys fall hed●ynge downe / byleued he neuer so well , and lyued he neuer ●o well also bysyde . And therfore of the bylyefe of purgatory there commeth ●hese profy●es 〈◊〉 other folke / though Tyndale be neue●●he better for the bylyefe therof , whyche byleueth yt not .

Tyndale .

Cryste and his apostles thoughte hell inough . And yet besydes that , the flesshely ymagynacyons maye not stande with goddes worde . what greate fere can there be of that terryble fyre , whyche thou mayste quenche almoste for thre halfpens .

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Nay surely that fyre is not so lyghtely quenched , that folke sholde vppon the boldenesse of perdons , stande out of the fere of purgatory . For lykewyse as though the sacrament of penaunce be able to put away theternalyte of the payne / yet hath the party for all that , cause to fere bothe purgatory and hell to , leste some defaute vppon hys owne parte letted god in the sacrament , to worke such grace in hym as sholde serue therfore : so though the perdon be able to dyscharge a man of purgatory / yet may there be suche defaute in the party to whom the perdon is graunted , that though he gyue for thre halfpence thre hundred pounde , yet shall he receyue no perdon at all . And therfore can he not be for thre halfepence out of fere of purgatory , but euer hath cause to fere it . For no man excepte reuelacyon , can be sure whyther he be partener of the perdon or not / though he maye haue and ought to haue bothe in that and euery good thynge good hope .

And yf the fere of purgatory were so clere gone , bycause it myghte be quenched wyth the coste of thre halfepence : then were the fere of hell gone 〈◊〉 by Tyndales techynge / syth bare fayth and sleyght repentyng putteth out that fyre clene , wythout the cost of a peny .

And where he say●●h that Cryste and hys apostles thought hell inough / I aske hym how he preueth that . For we se well by experyence that hell and purgatory to , be scant inough bytwene them bothe , to refrayne folke from synne . we se also that bothe Cryste and hys apostles , haue shewed vs that there is purgatory . And that haue they shewed vs not onely by mouth , whyche were suffycyent to faythfull folke / but by the scrypture to . And yet bothe twayne be not inough to Tyndale . For hys felowes and he wyll not vnderstande those places of scrypture , but after theyr owne fasshyon .

And therfore now , where as he calleth as vnprofytable ●● the so●le as smoke to sore eyes , all thynges that be not eyther wryten in scrypture or deduced theruppon / & put the ensamples of the assumpcyon of our ladye and purgatory : he muste adde vnto them as many thynges mo as hym selfe putteth in the same case . And so therby ye se that he sayth now , that a chylde to be confermed or to be crystened eyther , yf yt be crystened in latyne / or a man to shryue hym selfe of his synnys , or to do penaunce , or to do any good workes toward heuen warde , or to be aneled , or to pray to sayntes , or to byleue in the holy sacrament of the aulter , the blessed body and blood of Cryste , or to do any honoure vnto yt : all these thynges be by Tyndale as profytable for the soule , as smoke is for sore eyes . But I praye god that the sore eyes of hys sycke soule maye ones loke vppe better / leste he fynally fall in to the foule smoke of hell , where he shall neuer se after .

Tyndale .

And that the apostles shold teache aught by mouth , that they wold not write / I pray you for what purpose .

More .

Now haue ye herd all redy by what hygh reasons Tyndale hath prouyd you the thynge that he affermeth / that ys to wyt that the apostles wrote and lefte in wrytynge euery thynge that is of necessyte for the soule , eyther to be done or to be byleued .

But syth he seeth hym selfe , that in his reasons for hys owne parte there is so ly●●e pyth / & that he can neuer proue nor no man ellys , the thynges that Tyndale muste proue or ellys proue hym self a fole , for fallynge from the fayth of Crystes chyrce / that is to say that the apostles left all such necessarye poyntes of the fayth in wrytynge : he leueth of now his parte hym selfe , & asketh vs why they left aught vnwriten as though if I that neuer was of counsayle with them , can not tell vnto Tyndale playnely wherfore and why the apostles left aught vnwryten , he myght theruppon conclude that they wrote all to gether . Is not this a wyse and a worshyppefull reason ?

Thys maner is mych lyke as Tyndale wolde afferme that all the lawes of England be wryten , and what so euer were vnwryten were no law . And when he hadde longe wrestled therwyth and coulde not proue it / wolde then aske me , hath the realme of Englande any lawes that he not wryten● to what purpose I praye you sholde they be lefte vnwryten . And then yf I coulde not gyue hym an answere therto , such as coude content hym : he myghte therfore wyth good reason take hys parte for proued / and well and wourshypfully conclude that all that euer are vnwryten are no lawes . But now in my name he answereth hys questyon / and then confuteth that answere .

Tyndale .

Bycause they sholde not come to the handes of the hethen for mokkynge sayth mayster More . I praye you what thynge more to be mokked of the hethen / coude they teache , then the resurreccyon , and that Cryste was god and man and dyed betwene two theues , and for his deths sake all that repente and byleue therin sholde haue theyr synnes forgyuen them . ye and yf the apostles vnderstode therby as we do / what madder thyng vnto hethen people coude they haue taught , then that brede is Crystes body and wyne his bloude . And yet all these thynges they wrote . And agayne purgatory , confessyon in the eare , penaunce and satysfaccyon for synne to godwarde , with holy dedes and prayenge to sayntes with suche lyke / as dome sacramentes and ceremonyes : are maruelouse agreable vnto the superstycyon of the hethen people / so that they neded not to abstayne from wrytynge of them , for feare lest the hethen sholde haue mocked them .

More .

Thys was an happy happe for mayster Tyndale , that it happed mayster More wyth the layenge of suche a slender cause , to mynyster mayster Tyndale so mych pleasaunt mater of replycacyon . For yf I had not happed to haue sayed that the apostles forbare the wrytynge of some thynges , for estewynge of infydeles mokkynge : Tyndale had had now no more to saye , but had l●●te of wyth shame inough / where as now by thys poynt he hath occasyon of mych mater and wynneth mych wourshyppe therwyth .

But now yf I wolde be content to saye , that I was ouer seen in so sayenge / and that I can not defende my wordes that they forbare to wryte any maner thyng for any such cause / ●nd that also I can not tell why nor for what cause the apoles wrote some necessary thynges , and lefte some necessary ●●●nges vnwryten / no more then I can tell why that euery e●angelyste wryteth many thynges that hys felowes haue , and yet l●●eth out some as greate and as necessary as some that h● w●●●●●h in : yf I wolde for Tyndales pleasure saye thys ( ●h●c●● y● I dyd I neded not mych to force , for any greate ha●●● that my parte could take therby / for the thynge were in it selfe neuer the lesse trewe that the apostles so dyd in dede , though I coude not tell why ) then hadde I taken away quyte all Tyndales pleasure in his present bablyng , and lefte hym onely to those reasons that he hath layed before / in all whych he is as ye se to shamefully confounded .

But yet yf it lyke you good readers to rede myn owne wordes as I wrote them , which ye shall fynde in the fyrst boke of my dyaloge the .xxv. chapyter : there shall ye perceyue it / that it is not fully so farre from all reason , as Tyndale wolde haue it seme . For I shew there that the apostles dyd more playnely speke , and more openly declared , many thinges by mouth amonge the crysten folke , bycause theyr audyence was more mete whyle they were onely amonge them selfe / then they dyd by theyr wrytynge , whyche myghte percase come in to the handes of hethen men , that wold laugh some such thynges to scorne . Now cometh Tyndale and sheweth that thys is fondely sayed , syth the apostles letted not to wryte the thynge that the hethen wolde moste mokke of all / and that purgatory and the sacramentes were lest lykely to be mokked amonge them , for that they were most agreable vnto theyr owne superstycyon . But now lest he sholde haue combred hym selfe somwhat wyth the answere , and haue defaced therwyth the bewtye of hys owne tale : he leueth out here all suche thynges as I layd in that place for the profe . How be it those thynges wyll yet● I truste serue me suffy●yentely agaynste all Tyndales scoffes . Amonge whyche yet where he weneth that he speketh wyseste / he helpeth me so in what hym selfe euyn here vnware . For fyrste though I coude not tell why they wrote somwhat that the hethen men wyll mokke , & yet leue out somwhat lest they sholde mokke / though I coude not I saye tell why they dyd thys : yet is it inough yf I proue that they so dyd in dede . For the profe wherof I maye laye and so dyd in my dyaloge ( whych Tindale here leueth out ) that not onely saynt Peter so dy● , 〈◊〉 the seconde chapyter of the actys , Actuum . 2 where he forba●e ●o call C●y●t god lest it sholde haue hyndred the fayth in that audyen●● / but that our sauyour dyd the same hym selfe in the many 〈◊〉 preachynge of hys godhed , a● app●reth in the●● c●apyte● of saint Iohn . Now syth ye se th●t thus th●● dy● in dede / wh●● nedeth me to ca●e for all Tyndales why●s 〈◊〉 they 〈◊〉 bare thys where was lesse cause to ●ere ( and wh● the● 〈◊〉 thys where was more cause to fere : syth he can 〈…〉 but that they so dyd , am I bounden to gyue the rekenynge why and wherfore they so dyd ? This dare I be bolde to say / that they neuer taught thynge of dyffyculte be wrytynge , but that they taught yt more playnely by mouth / by whych explanacyons by mouth , the people cam into the vndouted trouth and fayth of the mater , were the wrytynge neuer so full of doute .

For the profe wherof / Tyndale hath here as I sayed byfore , by reason of his heresye wyth false vnderstandynge of saynt Paule / brought forth a ryght good sample . For thus he sayeth .

Tyndale .

ye and yf the apostles vnderstode therby as we do / what madder thyng vnto the hethen people coulde they haue taught , then that brede is Crystes bod●e and wyne his blood / and yet all these thynges they wrote .

More .

Lo here ye se that Tyndale hym selfe dowteth vppon saynt Poules wordes , whyther he ment as we do / whyche yet meane not as Tyndale doth , that brede is Crystes bodye and wyne his blood , so that the brede and wyne styll remayne as Tyndale sayeth that the apostles wryte / but that the brede & wyne is conuerted and chaunged into Crystes body and blood / and that by what wordes so euer the apostles wryte yt , yet that is the thynge that they meane / & that all be yt that they haue wryten yt playne inough in scrypture , yet bothe Cryste and they wyth many wordes so clerely dyd declare yt by mouth , that in that artycle neyther then nor neuer after was there any doute arose , tyll that these heretykes here now of late yeres make dowtes vppon the wrytynge , contrary to the declaracyon made by Cryste and his apostles , and well and surely writen in mennys hartes fourtene hundred yere byfore . Such parell is yt lo to fall from the vndouted fayth vnto the dyspycyons of the scrypture , whyche by the fayth is vnderstanden as the scrypture yt selfe . For lykewyse as yt sayth playnely , scrutamini scripturas , serche ye in scrypture : so sayth yt as playnely , nisi credideritis non intelligetis , but if ye byleue ye shall not vnderstande . And here ye se that though Tyndale wyll not confesse that the apostles lefte any thyng● vnwryten , nor that they wrote any thynge the more coue●●●●●or the mokkynge of the Hethen / yet he sayth hym selfe that t●e apostle wrote so that men myght doute what they me●●● A●d that I ●are well say that in the crysten flokke , they presently so farreforth declared yt / that they lefte no such doute therin . And also dare I say that they taught thinges by mouth whyche they wrote not / parte for the cause afore sayde , parte for that yt neded not / and thys I saye boldely . For though Tyndale saye nay : ● . Corinth. 11. yet saynt Poule sayed yes hym selfe , when he wrote vnto the Corinthianes , caetera quum venero ipse disponam : the other thynges I wyll dyspose or order when I come my selfe .

But the sacramentes so sore greue Tyndales sore yien , that he may not abyde the syght of them / & therfore he goth on agaynste them styll .

Tyndale .

More ouer what is yt that the apostles taught by mouth and durst not write , the sacramentes . As for baptyme and the sacrament of the body and blood of Cryste , they wrote / and yt is expressed what is sygnyfyed by them . And also all the ceremonyes and sacramentes that were from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnifycacyons / and all that are made mencyon of in the new testament . Wherfore in as mych as the sacramentes of the old testament ha●e sygnyfycacyons / and in as mych as the sacramentes of the new testament ( of whyche mencyo● is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very Apostles at Crystes commaundement ) haue also sygnifycacyons / and in as mych as the offyce of an apostle is to edefye in Cryste / and in as mych as diuyne ceremonye edefyeth not , but hurteth all to gether ( for yf yt preache not vnto me , then I can not but put confydence therin , that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth me / whyche is the denyenge of Crystes blood ) and in as mych as no mencyon is made of them as well as of other / ner is knowen what is ment by them : therfore yt appereth that th apostles taught them not , but that they be the false marchandyce of wylye hypocrytes .

More .

If a man rede ouer these wordes and examine them not / he maye be sone abused . But who so well way them , and consyder euery parte / shall sone perceyue that this processe ys fylled vppe wyth malyce , falsed , and foly . Fyrste he wolde that bycause the apostles haue writen the two sacramentes , that is to wyt baptysme & the sacrament of the auter , and the sygnyfycacyons of them / and of the tother fyue as he sayth , haue not wryten : he wolde I saye therfore that we sholde take yt as proued , that the other ●yue were no dyuine sacramentes , nor delyuered to the chyrche by Cryste nor hys ap●stles . Now is this argumen● though his anteceden● were trew / yet as wysely concluded , as this is of the lawes of ●●glande : Men haue wryten some / ergo they haue w●●ten a●●●

By the tytle of his chapyter he taketh in hande to proue , that the apostles haue lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten . And now he proueth yt , by that that they haue wryten some . For of his reason , ye & of all his reasons in conclu●yon this is the hole somme . whyche somme what effecte yt hath euery fole may se / but yf Tyndale proue me farther that the apostles promysed that they wolde wryte all / wherof saynte Iohn professeth playne the contrarye , and so dothe saynte Poule to .

Now yet in this reason of his as faynte and as feble as yt is , he is fayne to psuppose false . For he presupposeth that of any of the remanaunt / the apostles haue not writen . whych is so playne false , that yf there were any shame in hym , he myght not for shame say yt . Of confyrmacyon wryteth saynt Luke in the actes playnely / & saynte Poule to the Hebrues as playnely . A●● . 8. He●re . 6. 〈◊〉 . ● . 1. Tim●●● . 4. 〈◊〉 . 5. M●rc . ● . Of matrimony and presthed , saynt Poule manyfestly / the tone to the Ephesyes , the tother to Timothe . Anelynge , saynt Iames , and saynt Marke in the gospell also . And of penaunce and the partes thereof , euery man all moste in euery parte of scrypture . And this thynge Tyndale so well knoweth / and that yt hath bene so often so playnely proued vnto them , that they coude neuer yet nor neuer shall whyle they lyue , be able to wythstande yt , neyther wyth scrypture nor wyth reason , but wyth raylynge and bablynge . And therfore as I say this knoweth Tyndale so well , that yt is more the● shame for hym now so to wryte , as though the apostles hadde neuer wryten of them . whyche yf they neuer had done in dede / yet were the sacramentes sure inough , whych hange vppon god●es worde as sure as all theyr wrytynge / and of whych vnwryten worde we be certayne & sure by the selfe same meanes , by whyche we knowe theyr bokes for holy wrytynge / that is to wyt , by the relacyon of the catholyque chyrche of Cryste , and by the spiryte of god that ledeth the chyrche in to the bylyefe of the trouth / & ledeth euery well wyllynge person a parte / into the byleuynge of the catholyque chyrch , & by the belyuyng of the chyrch , into the ryght bylyefe of euery necessary trouth / & by the groundes therof fyrste hadde , into the ryght vnderstandynge of holy scrypture / whereby the fayth byfore had , is more and more fastely confe●med / and wyth out which fayth byfore hadde , the wyt of ●an myght abuse the scrypture to the occasyon of infydelyte and ●nfayth●ullnesse .

But yet bycause I wolde be loth that Tyndale myght say that I mysse take hym in any thyng / and then grounde my reason agaynste hym vppon my owne mysse takynge of his wordes : I wyll yet a lytle examyne his wordes better / when he sayth that the remanaunt of the sacramentes bysyde baptysme and the sacrament of the auter , be no profytable sacramentes , nor haue no promyse of grace , bycause the apostles wrote not of any of them as they dyd of the tother twayne . I wolde wyt of Tyndale whyther he meane that of any of the tother fyue , the apostels wrote nothyng at all / or ellys that they wrote not of any grace promised vnto any of them / or ellys that of none of them the apostles wrote any proper sygnyfycacyons of theyr outwarde sygnes / as saynt Poule dyd of baptysme when he resembled yt vnto Crystes beryeng and resurreccyon / and of the sacrament of the auter , when he teacheth the Corynthyes that one lofe is made of many graynes of corne , and the wyne of many grapes , and that crysten men sholde in lykewyse beyng many in person , be made one in loue and concorde , and as it were , made all one bodye in and wyth our sauyour Cryste hym selfe . If he meane the fyrste way / that is to wyt that yf any of the sayd fyue sacramentes the apostle wrote nothyng at all / then shall he shew hym selfe to shamelesse . For the wordes be clere both of confyrmacyon , presthed , anelynge , and bothe the other twayne . If he meane of the secunde manner / his ●ayeng shall be as shamelesse as in the fyrste . For yt is euydent in all the thre byfore remembred , that the apostles wryte of grace geuen wyth the puttynge vppon of the handes . And therein when Tyndale seketh an euasyon in his boke of obedyence / sayenge that the puttyng of the handes was but a maner of menne in that co●tre , as yt was to stretche oute the arme in prechynge , or to laye an hande vppon a boyes hed & call hym good sonne / this euasyon is no●e euasyon . For in the syxte chapyter of saynt Poule vnto the Hebrewes / saynte Poule wolde not haue made so seryouse & ernest remembraunce of the puttynge vppon of the handes ( whyche he reherseth as ernestly as baptysme ) yf yt were but such custumable maner that men maye do and lyue vndone as they lyste . Nor yf yt were but suche a thynge / he wolde not so expressely saye to Tymothe , that he had grace geuen v●to hym by the pu●●yng of his handes vppon hym . These places of scryptu●● and many mo to / be for this mater so playne agaynste T●ndale , and so ●uydent / that when he wrestleth with them and wold fayne scape away wyth some gay glose of his owne diuyse : he fareth lyke a butter flye fallen on a lyme twygge , whych the more yt stryueth and flotereth , euer the faster yt hangeth .

Now yf he meane in the thyrd fasshyon / that is to wytte that the apostles of those fyue sacramentes , do not besyde the comen sygnyfycacyon of grace , wryte any specyall and proper sygnyfycacyons of the outwarde tokens , to whyche sygnyfycacyons the same outwarde tokens hadde suche resemblans and lykenesse that they were therfore appropred vnto them / as water in baptysme hath by the wessynge of bodye a resemblauns vnto the clensynge of the soule , yf Tyndale meane in this manner as yt semeth that he dothe ( for when Luther and he and all the sorte of them : hadde longe labored agaynste the blessed sacramentes , and hadde fyrste assayed to saye that fyue of them were not in scrypture spoken of at all / and whan that wolde not be bydden by , then that there was at the leste wyse no grace promysed wyth them / when they se them selfe shamfully conuycted and reproued in that poynte to , then fell they fynally to the thyrde poynt / and wolde not wythstandynge that the scrypture make mencyon of them / & of grace also graunted wyth them / yet wold the wise men make vs so madde as to take them all for nought , but yf we fynde in scrypture what other specyall sygnyfycacyon euery outwarde token hath / and preache that sygnyfycacyons to the people , as the specyall thynge and the hole effecte of the sacrament lettyng the grace go by / whych these men wolde were clene forgoten , & in no wyse byleued . But where as in all theyr wry●ynges they rayle vppon allegoryes , & crye out vppon such holy doctours as preache them : yet the holy sacramentes selfe they wolde shold serue for allegoryes onely and for nothynge ellys )

Now then I saye syth Tyndale meaneth thys wyse and therfore sayth in his wordes afore remembred , that otherwyse preached they do no good but hurte all to gether / for yt maketh he sayeth the audyence to put confydence therin , that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth a man , whyche is the denyenge of Cristes blood / syth Tyndale I saye sayeth thus : I wolde wyt of Tyndale whether the sacramentes and the ceremony●s of the olde law were by god prouyded to be well , and with theyr profyte delyuered & taught by M●yses vnto the Iewes . I thynke ●●●t Tyndale wyll not be so madde to say , that god dyd by Moyses teche them to serue hym wyth those sacramentes , sacryfyces , & ceremonyes , dyspleasaunt to hym selfe , thankles toward them selfe , & also to theyr hurte . wherfore yf he haue eyther wytte or grace / he muste nedys graunte & agre , that they were by Moises taught vnto the iewes , very well and agreable to goddys pleasure & theyr welthe . But then say I that those specyall and proper sygnyfycacyons of euery sacrament , sacryfyce , and ceremonye were not taught them / nor they vnderstode them not : wherfore it foloweth that Tyndale sayeth false / in that he sayth that the knowledge of them was so necessary for the soule helthe / that wythout that knowledge the vse of them muste nedes be noyfull and not lawfull vnto them . For but yf Tyndale teche false in thys / god had taught hys people in the begynnynge to serue hym wyth damnable ceremonyes hym selfe .

Now yf Tyndale wyll at thys clappe turne hys cheke a syde / and say that bycause that ellys all theyr seruyce to god done wyth those sacramentes and ceremonyes hadde bene dampnable / therfore it app●reth well that all the sygnyfycacions of them were taught them / and so the minor of myne arguēmt false : yet in turnynge the to cheke for me , he tourneth the tother very fayre to me / so that he wyll haue a clap on the tone cheke or the tother make what skyfte he can .

For then say I thys vnto hym , that yf the knowledge of all these sygnyfycacions was so necessary to them that with out that knowlege , the doynge of those thynges whyche without synne they myghte not leue vndone , were synne as ofte as they dyd them / and that therfore lest we sholde be so wretched to wene god had on ●ue●y syde so bywrapped hys people in synne hym selfe , by hys owne specyall prouysyon , that they coude not by no meane escape : we muste nedys perceyue that god caused them to be by Moyses taught all those sygnyfycacyons . Then say I that syth they were not wryten vnto them in the scrypture , they were yf Tyndale tolde vs trew taughte them but onely by mouth / and so fro mouth to mouth taught and contynued amonge them , tyll men by theyr foly and slougth fell to forge●● them or lytell to force of them , and then to not byleue them as these heretyques fare by the ryght fayth at thy● d●ye .

And then saye I that therup●on● it very well foloweth ferther / that Tyndale sayeng that M●yses receyu●● all ●●cessary thynges in wrytynge , sayed very false & 〈…〉 fole / for the knowlege and vnderstandynge of those sygnyfycacyons of all theyr sacryfyces and ceremonyes , he confesseth to be necessary vppon parell of theyr soulys , and yet he confesseth that they were not wryten in the scrypture .

And yf Tyndale wene to wry asyde and skape , by that he sayth that those sacramentes & ceremonyes serued them for bookes / & that they ●ed all the sygnyfycacyons in them as in bookes : I aske hym whyther the ceremonyes were tokens so lyke the sygnyfycacyons , that they were able to teche the sygnyfycacyons , and kepe them by the beholdyng of the ceremonyes or not . If they were / they had not ben forgotten . If they were not , and yet the sygnyfycacyons so necessary / then yet agayne was not euery thynge necessary delyuered Moyses in wrytynge .

But lettyng Tyndale with his foly passe / the trouth is that the iewes had necessary thynges taught them besyde the wrytynge / & had an expectacyon of Cryst and of redempcyon by hym before the law wryten / & in that tyme , and after , and the iewes loke for it yet / & they knowe that wythout hym all theyr sacramentes coude not for theyr fynall saluacyon serue them . But when they began lytell & lytell to fall from that fayth / and began to truste in the law & the ●●orkes of the law alone / leuynge of thys poynt of fayth which was of the law , sacramentes & ceremonyes , and all theyr bodyly workes the soule : then went they wronge . And that is ●he thynge whiche saynt Poule so sore reproueth , in theyr t●ust & confydence to be saued by the workes of the law / where as yf they had not lefte of the force & strength of fayth / both workes of the law , and the ceremonyes to , had stande them in ●tede of heuen . And therfore thys nothyng toucheth the chyrch of Cryste when they put truste in the sacramentes / for they do it not wythout the fayth that all the force and strength of them cometh of Crystes passy●n / for thys they beleue , and thys they teche .

And it is no dowte but that the iewes neuer knew the specyall sygnyfycacyons of all theyr sacramentes , sacryfyces , & ceremonyes , other then grace & remyssyon of synnes , or peraduentu●● that they were fygures & tokens of thynges that shold fall not yet perceyued by them / as we know our sacramentes 〈…〉 sygnes of grace . And it is vndowted , that both they & we ●hich in fay●h , hope , & che●yte , do any such thyng as god 〈…〉 & 〈…〉 such fashyon as he byddeth v● / all though we know● not why he wyll be serued in suche wyse , no more then Abraam knew why god bad hym to serue hym wyth the sacryfysynge of hys owne sonne : yet is that doynge of that dede done in that wyse , pleasaunt & acceptable to god , and profyte to mannes soule / what so euer Tyndale tell vs , and hys mayster Martine to , & frere Huskyn also , and take theyr wyse wyues wyth them . And therfore all thys tale of Tyndale agaynst the sacrament / is not worth the leste fether of a wylde gose wynge .

But yet consyder one thynge by the way , that ye mysse take hym not , nor be not by a fayre word ledde out of your way . He calleth the sacrament of the auter the sacrament of the bodye & blode of Cryste / in which wordes he calleth it well , but yet meaneth he not so well therby as good crysten men do , nor as hym selfe wolde seme to do . For he meaneth not that there is the very body & blode of Cryst in dede , though he saye there is the sacrament therof . For by that meaneth he nothynge ellys , but onely a bare sygne , and token , and a memoryall therof .

For the great heretyke Thorpe in his examynacyon , calleth the sacrament a ryght ; and by the same name that Tyndale now doth / so that ● man wold at the fyrst heryng fynd no faute therin , but mysse take hym for a good crysten man . But afterward he declareth hym selfe well and clerely , that he meaneth lyke a naughty heretyke / as Tyndale doth also in sondry places of his boke . For he saith the sacrament , sygne , and token , be but thre names of one thynge / and that the sacrament of the auter is very brede styll . And he mokketh at them that teache it to be the very body of our sauyour hym selfe / and he is woode wyth them that do it any honour .

And so in this poynt concernynge the blessed sacrament of the auter , Tyndale is yet a mych more heretyke then Luther is hym selfe in hys wrytynge / all though in dede it appereth well that he ment as mych in the begynn●ng , tyll he wythdrew hym selfe for enuye of other , that hasted forward and set forth that heresye byfore hym .

And of trouth I am ryght credebly enformed by a very vertuouse man , whom god hath of his goodnesse illumined & called home agayn , out of the darke Egypte of theyr blynd heresyes / that at suche tyme as frere Barons and Tyndale fyrste mette & talked to gether beyonde the see , after that he fledde out of the f●eres where he was enioyned to 〈…〉 his penaunce after he hadde borne his fagot ; Ty●dale ●nd he were of sondrye sectes . For frere Barons was of zwynglius secte agaynste the sacrament of the auter , byleuynge that it is nothynge but bare brede . But Tyndale was yet at that tyme not fully fallen so farre in that poynt / but though he were badde inough bysyde , was yet not content with frere Barons for the holdynge of that heresye . But wythin a whyle after ( as he that is fallyng is sone put ouer ) the frere made the fole mad out ryght , and brought hym blyndfelde downe into the depeste dongeon of that deuylysshe heresye / wherin he sytteth now as faste bounden in the chayre of pestylence , wyth the chayne of pertynacyte , as any of hys vnhappy felowes . And this I geue you knowledge of / bycause I wolde not in any wyse that ye were deceyued wyth hym , where he speketh well & yet meaneth nought . But now lette vs yet farther consyder well hys wordes . Thus he sayth .

Tyndale .

All the ceremonyes and sacramentes that were from Adam to Cryste , hadde sygnyfycacyons / and all that are made mencyon of in the new testament .

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Uppon this he concludeth after , that except baptysme & the sacrament of the auter / all the remanaunt be no trewe sacramentes for lakke of sygnifycacyons . But ere he can so conclude / he muste fyrste proue , not onely that all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste hadde sygnyfycacyons / but also that all those sygnyfycacyons were them to the people knowen and vnderstanden . For ellys though god dyd sette thynges to sygnyfye and to be done : yet yf he commaunded them to do it and tolde them not the sygnyfycacyons , but wolde leue them to be shewed and dysclosed at suche tyme afterwarde as it sholde lyke hym selfe / it was no synne for them in the meane whyle to do the thynges that god bode them do / but greate meryte to them , though they vnderstode not what the thynges sygnyfyed that they dyd / no more then my ●eruaunt that can no more but wryte , is worthy rebuke and blame in the wrytynge of a latyn booke at my byddynge , wherof he woteth not what any one worde meaneth . Now that all the sygnyfycacyons , of all the sacramentes and ceremonyes from Adam to Cryste , were vnderstanden of the people : that shall not Tyndale proue me , though he shuld lyue as many yeres as were betwene the creacyon of Adam / & the ●●rth of Cryst . And therfore as many yeres must he nedes haue also● ere euer h● make hys conclusion folow and hys argument good . For yf god gaue them ceremonyes and sacramentes , wherof he gaue them not the sygnyfycacyons : then so myghte he lykewyse gyue vs yf it so please hym to do . And farther yf they by the doynge of those not vnderstanden ceremonyes and sacramentes in obedyence of his byddynge , dyd not synne , but deserued thanke / all suche I saye as dyd them in dew fayth of saluacyon by Cryste that was to come : then maye we also by the obseruynge of sacramentes and ceremonyes , hauyng some sygnyfycacyons farther then we perceyue ( for one generall sygnyfycacyon of them all we knowe , that they be all good tokens and sygnyfycacyons of grace , in that they be taughte by god and hys spyryte that in such thynges doth instructe hys chyrche ) we maye lykewyse I saye obserue them wythout synne , and not wythout thanke of god . And so Tyndales argument goth to grounde quyte / all though our sacramentes & ceremonyes were not good in dede . For they may be good for any reason that he maketh to the contrarye .

But now that they be good in dede , and delyuered vnto Crystes catholyke chyrche by hym selfe and hys holy spytyte sent by hym selfe to dwell therin , to teache it all necessarye trouth , and therby necessaryly to preserue it from all damnable vntreuth , false bylyefe , and idolatrye ( as the sacramentes & ceremonyes were yf they were false ) : thys haue I proued to Tyndale ofter I trow them fyftene tymes / to whyche in fyftene hundred yere he shall I am sure neuer make one good answere .

Tyndale .

Wherfore in as mych as the sacramentes of the olde testament haue sygnyfycacyons / and in as mych as the sacramentes of the new testament ( of whyche mencyon is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very apostles at Crystes commaundement ) haue also sygnyfycacyons / and in as mych as the offyce of an apostle is to edyfye in Cryste / and in as mych as a 〈◊〉 ceremonye edyfyeth not , but hurtet● all to gether ( for yf yt preache not vnto me , then I can not but put confydence therin that the dede yt selfe iustyfyeth me / whyche is the denyenge of Crystes blood ) and ●● as mych as no ●e●cyon is made of them as well as of other , nor is knowen what is me●● of them therfore yt apereth that the apostles taug●t them not / but that they be the 〈◊〉 marchaundyse of wylye hypocrytes .

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He repeteth here & hepeth vppe all hys proues together , whych proues I haue repreued pece mete all to gether / and so his conclusyon whych he deduceth vppon them , ys all redye reproued all to gether . But yet for his double confusyon can I not forbere to touche one pece agayne , whyche in his repeticyon here he semeth to sette out more open & more clerely to declare .

This pece is , where he sayeth that all the sacramentes of the new testamente haue sygnyfycacyons also / and then expowneth whych all he meaneth / sayeng all of which mencyon is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very apostles at Crystes commaundement .

It is to me more then wonder what this man meaneth . Fyrst yt muste nedes be that he accompteth amonge suche as he sayeth , there is no mencyon made of theyr delyuery by the very apostles , all those fyue whyche he so often and so fully refuseth to take for sacramentes / that ys to wyt confyrmacyon , penaunce , wedloke , holy order , and anelynge . For he sayth alwaye that the tother two , that is baptysine and the sacrament of the auter haue sygnyfycacyons , and that these haue none / and by thys reason he wolde now conclude that onely those two be very sacramentes , and none of all these fyue .

But now his wordes wyll rather proue that these fyue haue sygnyfycacyons to . For he sayth that all haue sygnyfycacyons , wherof mencion is made that they were delyuered vnto vs by the very apostles . wherfore Tyndale doth here eyther confesse that these fyue haue sygnyfycacyons also / & then confesseth his wordes false , by whych he so often sayth they be no sacramentes , bycause they haue no sygnyfycacyons / for lakke , wherof he calleth them dumme ceremonies : or ellys he sayeth here , that there is no mencyon made that any of these fyue were delyuered vs by the very apostles / and then is he therin to playnely proued false . For euery man seeth that there is none of all these fyue , but that as I haue often shewed , mencion is made of them by the euangelystes , A●t . 8. Tim●o ● . 4 . Ephes. 5. Iac●●● . 5. Marc. 6. and the other of the apostles / yf they be the very apostles whom he and we bothe call the apostles , saynte Peter , saynte Poule , saynte Iamys , and theyr felowes . So that I wonder what the madde man meaneth to speke in thys mater so ●olempnly , and handle yt so madly . For when they make mencyon of them : the wyse man maye well wyt that they dyd not bygynne by any wyly fo●e after / but by Cryste hym selfe that taught those thynges to them , and they forth to hys chyrche .

Tyndale .

And therto presthed was in the tyme of the apostles an offyce / whyche yf they wolde do truely it wolde more profyte then all the sacramentes of the worlde .

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Is not here a nother madde reason ? Hys purpose is to proue that the apostles lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten / and Tyndale proueth it thus . In the apostles tyme prestehed was an offyce / whych yf the prestes wolde do it truely , wolde more profyte then all the sacramentes in the worlde . Now ye wote well his conclusyon must nedys be thys : And therfore it foloweth that the apostles lefte no necessary thyng vnwryten● ys not thys a madde concluded argument . And yet are there in hys wordes mo folyes then one besyde . For graunted that presthed was an offyce / yet myghte that offycer be consecrated wyth a sacrament , and so was in dede . And a parte of hys offyce was also to mynyster the sacramentes to the people .

Now yf that offyce well occupyed , were more profytable then all the sacramentes besydes : what letteth that the other sacramentes to be good and necessary to saluacyon . were thys a wyse argument ? Better is it to forbere synne then to do penaunce for synne / ergo to do penaunce for synne is not necessary . Now after thys goodly argument goeth he to another as gay , and sayth .

Tyndale .

And agayne , Goddys holynesses stryue not one agaynste a nother , nor defyle one a nother . Theyr sacramentes defyle one a nother . For wedlocke defyleth presthed , more then horedome , thefte , mur●●er , or any synne agaynst nature .

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Here is but one argument , and that but shorte / but here be two lyes longe & lowde inough . For fyrst where he groundeth hym selfe vppon thys , That goddes holynesses stryue not one agaynst another , nor defyle one another : he sayeth playne false and agaynst holy scrypture quyte . For the beryenge of dede men , euer was and is an holy dede and well alowed wyth god / and yet wolde he not suffer the bys●hoppe to bery any man , and though it were hys father . And also yf Tyndale wyll abyde by thys : eyther he muste say that perpetuall vyrgynyte is nought and not holy , contrary to saynt Poule and our sauyour hym selfe , who take it and teche it for holy and preferre it before wedloke wyth hys w●rke / or ellys he must say that wedlokke with hys worke is nought and not holy , whyche god hym selfe bothe blessed and commaunded in paradyse / and whyche holy scrypture commendeth , where it sayth that wedlokke is honorable where the bedde is vndefyled wyth auowtry . And then must he confesse also that hys owne mayster Marten Luther ( yf the worke of wedlokke be fowle and synfull ) hath synfully double defyled hym selfe wyth weddynge of his nonne . Or elles fynally muste he confesse hym selfe for a fole , in sayenge that goddys holynesse stryue not one agaynst another / but yf he saue hym selfe and saye , that perpetuall vyrgynite and the worke of wedlokke , be not repugnaunt the tone to the tother / and then he shall not nede to confesse hym sel●e a fole , for the hole worlde wyll confesse it for hym .

Now maketh he another ly / where he sayth that wedlok defyleth prestehed more then horedome , thefte , murder , or any synne agaynst nature . For yf he say this as of hym self / it is a folysshe lye . But yf he saye it as he doeth in the person of the catholyke chyrche , to make men byleue that the chyrche techeth so : then is it a very malycyouselye . For it is not trew , nor the chyrche techeth not so . For the chyrche playnly techeth that horedome , thefte , murder , and synne agaynste nature , coude neuer be lawfull neyther to preste nor lay man . But the chyrche bothe knoweth and confesseth , that wedlok and prestehed be not repugnaunt but compatyble of theyr nature / and that wedded men haue ben made prestes and kepte styll theyr wyues . But syth perpetuall chastyte and the forberynge of the worke of wedlokke , is more acceptable to god then the worke of wedlokke in matrymony : therfore the chyrche taketh none to be prestes but suche as promyse and professe neuer to be maryed , but kepe perpetuall chastyte . And then doth maryage after the promyse made , not by reason of the presthed taken vppon them , but by reason of the promyse made vnto god and broken : defyle the preste , I wyll not dyspute whyther as mych as thefte , murder , or the synne agaynst nature / but I am sure as mych as horedome doth . For syth the maryage is no maryage / it is but horedome it selfe . And I am sure also that it defyleth the preste more then dowble and treble horedome / syth that hys maryage ●eynge as it is vnlawfull , and therby none other but horedome , doth openly rebuke and shame two sacramentes there at ones , that is both presthed & matrimony / & besydes that not onely commytteth horedom , but also sayth openly that he wyl lcommytte horedome / and as a bolde beste and a shamelesse whoremaster , playnely professeth afore the face of god and all crysten people , that in stede and dyspyght of his professed chastite , he commeth there to bynde hym self to shamelesse perpetuall horedom . And thus good crysten reders ye se , how well this wyse argument serueth hym .

And now putteth he after yt his great solemne questyon , where he fyndeth in scrypture that women may crysten chyldren / whyche ioyneth to his wordes byfore , nere inough in the boke , but in reason as farre of as the scrypture that he layeth therfore , is farre of from the mater / as I haue touched before .

And surely thorow all his boke and almoste euery thyng that he maketh , sometyme the chapyters , sometyme the paragraphes and reasonynges wythin the chapyter , haue so euyll dependence one towarde a nother / that yt semeth the mater to be gathered by dyuerse folke / and as they come to hym in dyuerse papers , so he wythout order and at auenture patcheth in hys peces nothynge lyke to gether , wyth great sakke semys , and some seme rent bytwene . And in lykewise ioyneth he now the fynall clause of thys chapyter vnto the remanaunte / so that who so consyder what and how many thynges go betwene yt , and the thynge wheruppon he concludeth yt / shall surely wene yt were a poysened stynkynge tayle of some stynkynge serpent that were quyte cutte of , & after layed a syde farre from the poysened body . For this is hys fynall clause and hys hole conclusyon .

Tyndale .

And fynally though we were sure that god hym selfe hadde geuen vs a sacrament what so euer yt were : yet yf the sygnifycacyon were ones loste / we must of necessite eyther seke vppe the sygnyfycacyon , or put some other sygnyfycacyon of goddes worde thereto , what we ought to do or byleue therby , or ellys put yt downe . For yt is impossyble to obserue a sacrament wythout sygnyfycacyon , but to oure damnacyon . If we kepe the fayth purely , and the lawe of loue vndefyled / whyche are the sygnyfycacyons of all ceremonyes : there ys no ieobardye to alter or chaunge the fashyon of the ceremonye , or to putte yt downe yf nede be .

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Lo good readers here ye se finally how well and how w●sely , and thereto how vertuousely Tyndale fynysheth th●s chapyter . For the whole effecte of all these wordes is in th● worlde nothynge ellys / but that yf god bydde you do a thynge and he tell you not what he meaneth thereby , and for what cause he wyll haue you do it : ye must nedes leue yt vndone , & bydde hym do it hym selfe . wolde Tyndale ( wene you ) be well contente wyth hys owne seruaunt , that wolde serue hym of the same fashyon ? not do what he byddeth hym tyll he tell hym why he byddeth hym ? wold it not haue bycome Adam well when god forbode hym the tre of knowledge , to haue asked god agayne why he dyd so / & saye , tell me god lorde wherfore , and what thou meanest therby , and why sholde I more dye for etynge thereof , then of a nother tre / tell me thys good lorde ere thou go , for ellys be thy bakke turned onys , I wyll ete therof whyther thou wylte or no.

when god taught Moyses the makynge of the tabernacle , the temple , & all thynges bylongynge therunto : wold yt not haue done well in Moyses mouth to haue sayed vnto god : Tell me what yt meaneth that thou wylt haue the tabernacle made of thys maner , or ellys yt shall lye vnmade for me .

when our sauyour hym selfe sent out hys dyscyples , and bade them in the confyrmacyon of theyr doctryne , lay theyr handes vppon syke folke , and they sholde be hole , and that they sholde anoynt some wyth oyle : wolde yt not ( wene ye ) haue done very well , that they sholde haue sayd nay , but yf he wolde tell them why laye theyr handes more then speke theyr bare worde , & why anoynt them wyth oyle rather then smere them wyth butter . Surely the deuyll hath made this man madde / he wolde ellys neuer saye as he sayth . For yf it were impossyble to vse a c●remonye but vnto damnacyon , & the obedyence to goddes byddyng be euer more dedely synne , but yf the sygnifycacyon be knowen : then lyued the chosen people of god in the olde law in a straung perplexite . whych what so euer Tyndale say , shall neuer be proued to haue vnderstanden the sygnyfycacyons of all the ceremonyes / which god expressely commaunded them to fullfyll and obserue / though he wolde not that they sholde wene that the obseruyng of them wythout fayth and other good workes , shuld suffyse them as Tyndale and Luther saye / that fayth alone shall saue vs wythout good workes / as they sayed of olde , and as he sayeth now wythout sacramentes to . For this ys his fynall conclusyon of all / that yf we kepe the fayth and the law of loue ●●defyled , there is no parell at all to alter and chaunge the fashyon of the ceremonyes , & to put them downe to / meanyng as yt semeth that yf we kepe the fayth and beleue wyth Luther that there nedeth no more but fayth / and then therwyth kepe the lawe of loue after Luthers louynge maner , in lodgynge louers freres and nonnes louyngly to gether : then we shall neuer nede to care whether we chaunge or put downe ceremonyes and sacramentes and all .

And surely very soth he sayth . For when we fall ones to be contente wyth that : there wyll , but yf we chaunge that mynde and mende , neyther any ceremony nor any sacrament serue vs .

And yet yf fayth and loue be as Tyndale here sayth , the sygnyfycacyons of all the ceremonyes : what parell is there to kepe all the ceremonyes with them twayne , wythout any other sygnyfycacyons ? And thus by Tyndale hys owne tale we shall neyther nede to put them downe , alter , nor chaung them / where he sayth afore we muste seke the sygnyfycacyons agayne , or put downe the ceremonyes vppon payne of damnacyon .

And here haue ye now sene all that euer he sayth , for the profe of the thyng that he hath in this chapiter taken in hande to proue / that is to wyt that the apostles haue lefte wryten in scrypture all thynges that of necessyte perteyne to the soule helth , both in thynges to be done , & thynges to be byleued . And now perceyue ye perfitely also / that all that euer he sayth , there is not any one thynge that to the profe of his purpose serueth hym worth a rysh .

Here myght I now well leue ( ye se well ) as for thys mater / syth I haue suffycyently confuted and auoyded clerely all that Tyndale hath alledged for hys parte in thys chapyter / in whyche he wold proue that the apostles haue lefte wryten in holy scrypture euery thynge necessarye to be byleued or done , for the saluacyon of our soules / and that so fully , that what so euer is not wryten in scrypture , nor deduced theruppon ( by whyche deducyng what he meaneth● I haue by his owne example shewed you ) that thynge is not as he sayth to be byleued nor to be done of necessyte / but men be at theyr lybertie in all such maner thynge to do yt or do yt not , byleue yt or byleue yt not , or rather in synne to byleue yt or do yt , though all the catholyque chyrche of Cryste both do byleue , and many hundred yeres haue byleued that the thyng is of necessyte to be done or byleued . In whyche mate● 〈◊〉 ● saye , syth Tyndale hath fayled of his profe , I myght here make an ende / sauynge that I haue though● yt conuenyent for his more vtter confusyon , to brynge in by and by suche thynges , as I fynde writen by hym for his parte in this mater bysyde / that ye maye se wythout farther sekynge for yt , all that he can saye at ones . I shall therfore shew you his answeres to suche thynges , as I in the .xxv. chapyter of the fyrst boke of my dyaloge alledged / for the profe that all necessarye thynges were not wryten in scrypture , but some suche onely taught and delyuered vnto the chyrch by mouth . And when ye shall here haue herde Tyndales answeres vnto those thynges : ye shall then the more clerely perceyue how foule a fall he hath in thys mater , vppon whyche the greate parte of all hys heresyes dependeth / and ouer that ye shall ryght easely iudge what pyth and substaunce is in his boke of answeres , wherwyth he wolde fayne seme clerely to confute my dyaloge .

I shewed there in my dialoge by the authorite of saynte Iohn the euangelyste in the laste chapyter of hys gospell / that all thyng was not wryten . For there he sayth hym selfe , Iohn . 21 Many thynges dyd Iesus / whyche yf they were all wryten , the worlde wold not receyue the bokes . To thys answereth Tyndale thus .

Tyndale .

He iugleth . For Iohn meaneth of the myracles whyche Iesus dyd / and not of the necessarye poyntes of the fayth .

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ye se well now that Tyndale well feleth , that syth the euangelystes dyd not go togyther by appoyntement to wryte theyr gospels / nor when they hadde wryten them conferred theyr bokes togyther , to se whyther euery necessary poynte were wryten in amonge them all / or ellys at that collacyon to put it in some one / as we fynde that saynt Poule had conference wyth Peter and other of the apostles , Galathas . 2 , to come and speke of the fayth amonge them , but not to wryte it all out in bokes / but euery euangelyste of occasyon offred vnto hym selfe , as god put in hys mynde and remembraunce , wrote hys owne gospell seuerally by hym selfe , and theyr epystles in lyke wyse / and peraduenture one of them in all theyr lyues neuer redde the gospell that the tother wrote : thys I saye beynge thus , excepte that god besyde theyr purpose prouyded ● amonge them all euery necessary poynte sholde be wryten ( whyche thynge Tyndale neyther doth nor can by reason or scrypture proue ) ellys yf any of them lefte vnwryten any poynt necessary to be byleued , Tyndale can not saye but that euery of the other apostles myghte do the same / and then hath Tyndale no surety that euery suche thynge was wryten .

And therfore Tyndale feleth full well how nere this place of saynt Iohn prykketh hym / yf in those wordes of saynte Iohn myghte be vnderstanden that he had not wryten euery necessary poynt of our bylefe .

And therfore to auoyde this pynche / Tyndale sayth that I iugle . For saynte Iohn he sayeth ment onely of Crystes myracles / and not of any necessary poynt of the fayth .

I iugle not . For I saye not nay but the saynt Iohn ment of myracles . And in the tone place of the twayne he speketh of myracles by name / sayenge Iesus wroughte many other myracles in the presence of hys dyscyples that be not wryten in thys boke . In the tother place in the very ende he sayth the Cryste dyd many other thynges / whyche yf they shold be all wryten , all the worlde coude not receyue the bokes that sholde be wryten . In whyche wordes I denye not but that saynte Iohn ment of Crystes myracles to , & therfore I iugle not . But Tyndale that in that seconde place where saynte Iohn meneth no myracles , there excludeth hys doctryne / & wolde make vs wene that saynt Iohn lefte not vnwryten any necessary point of fayth : he iugleth & goth about to begyle vs

I thynke he taketh not so grete hold● vppon this word , dyd / in that saynt Iohn sayth , Cryste dyd many other thynges , and sayth not Cryste taughte many other thynges . For thys worde doynge , includeth techynge , talkyng , spekyng , and all . As yf a man wolde saye / Cryst prayed , preched , and taught / this dyd he daye and nyght . And therfore syth saint Iohnns hole boke , was made not onely of Crystes myracles but also of hys doctryne & as well worde as dede / and then he sayth in the very ende of hys boke , that Cryste dyd many thynges mo , wherof yf all were wryten the worlde coude not receyue the bokes : why maye not thys be vnderstanden of wordes and dedes and all / but yf Tyndale wene that the bokes wolde be the fewer yf the doctryne were in them to .

But now let vs se whyther of vs two playe the false iugeler / I that tell you that euery necessary poynt of bylefe is not wryten in saynt Iohnns gospell / or Tyndale that wolde make you wene that what so euer ye fynde not wryten there , ye were not bounden to take it for any necessary poynt of fayth . For ellys yf Tyndale wolde graunte that saynt Iohn had not wryten in dede euery necessary poynt of fayth : then is it as good for Tyndale that saynt Iohn say so , as that in dede it be so . Let vs therfore leue disputyng vppon the word , and loke vppon the dede , and se whyther it be so or not . If a man seke amonge the other euangelystes : he shall fynd mo necessary thynges then one lefte out in saynt Iohn / and in eche of them somwhat that some other hath . And yf a man loke ferther in the boke of fayth , wryten in the hartes of Cristes hole catholyke chyrche : he shall fynde some thynges that none of them all hath wryten , and yet necessary poyntes of fayth / as I haue shewed you samples and shall .

But now bycause of Tyndale / let vs take some one . And what thyng rather then the last souper of Cryste , hys maundye with hys apostles / in whych he instytuted the blessed sacrament of the auter , hys owne blessed body and blode . Is this no necessary poynt of fayth ? Tyndale can not deny it for a necessary poynt of fayth / & though it were but of hys owne false fayth agreynge wyth Luther , Huskyn , or zuinglius . And he can not saye that saynte Iohn speketh any thynge therof , specyally not of the instytucyon . Nor he can not saye that saynt Iohn speketh any thyng of the sacrament at all , syth that hys secte expressely denyeth that saynt Iohn ment the sacrament in hys wordes , where he speketh expressely thereof in the .vi. chapyter of hys gospell .

And thus ye se howe wysely Tyndale sykketh wyth me in the sentence of saynte Iohnns wordes / when the thynge that I entende thereby is proued by his dede .

And yet bycause Tyndale wyll nothynge alowe but the word / if he pull frome that word of saynt Iohn : I shall proue hym the same purpose by the worde of saynte Iohnns mayster , our sauyour Cryste hym selfe / and saynte Iohn shall bere me recorde that yt was Cryste that sayed yt . For oure sauyour lo as wytnesseth saynte Iohn in the .xvi. chapiter , Iohan. 16 sayed vnto his dyscyples hym selfe : I haue yet many thynges to saye to you , but ye can not bere them now / but when that the spyryte of trewth ys come , he shall teache you all trewth .

Lo here ye here our sauyour saye hym selfe , that he lefte and wolde leue some thynges , and that great thynges , and therfore of lykelyhed necessarye / that they sholde not here tyll after his passyon , that the holy goost sholde come and teache them / and well ye wote that saynte Iohn endeth his boke byfore . And therfore as for thys authoryte of saynte Iohn , that I layed in my dialoge : Tyndales answere wherin he calleth me a iugler , hath not yet iugled awaye the force / but hath by his false caste of iuglynge , fetely conuayed hym self out of the fryenge panne , fayre into the fyre .

where as I shew in my dyaloge that yt is not wryten in scrypture that our ladye was a perpetuall virgyne , and yet yt is a necessarye poynt to be byleued : This is his answere thereto .

Tyndale .

And how bryngeth he in the perpetuall virgynite of our lady / whych though yt be neuer so trew , is yet none artycle of our fayth to be saued by / but we byleue yt wyth a storye fayth , bycause we se no cause resonable to thynke the contrarye .

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By this answere yt appereth well , that god be thanked he fyndeth not yet the peoples deuocyon so farre fallen from our lady / that he dare be bolde to saye all that he thynketh . For ellys he wolde saye more then he doth . And lyke as he forbedeth folke to pray to her / and specially mysselyketh her deuowt antem of Salue regina : so wolde he not fayle yf he saw the people frame all after hys fantasye , to blaspheme her in this mater of a nother fashion / as other of his felowes haue done byfore his dayes .

But now for the meane whyle he is contente that men may thynke them selfe at lybertye to byleue it or not byleue yt as they lyste , as a thynge of no necessyte to be byleued vppon saluacyon of our soules . And full well he woteth , that though he say now that he can se no reason why to thynke the contrary : yet if he could bryng vs ones in the mynde that there is no parell therin , he myght afterward well inough tell vs when he wolde the contrarye / and saye that wyth better lokynge theron , he hath now founden that Eluidius & other elder heretyques of the same sewte , sayde therin very well , and that reason and scrypture is wyth them / and that saynt Austayne and saynte Hierome & all the remanaunt say wrong , bycause theyr parte is not wryten in scrypture .

This wyll not Tyndale herafter let to say when he lyst / yf he maye make vs wene in the meane whyle that we maye chuse whyther we wyll byleue thys poynt or not .

But I saye that in that poynte Tyndale sayeth wronge . For in any suche thynge as we be bounden to byleue / yf I byleue yt in dede , & yet byleue therwyth that I maye lawfully chuse whether I wyll byleue yt or not : I saye that in so byleuynge I byleue nought , nor my bylyefe shall not serue me .

Then saye I farther that this artycle is suche , that we be bounden to byleue yt . For he that byleueth yt not is an h●retyque / as yt playnely appereth both by saynt Austayn in his boke to quod vult deus / and by saynte Hierome in hys boke agaynste Heluidius / and by the other holy sayntes and martyrs , who as saynt Hierome & saynt Austayne reherse , dyd wryte agaynste heretykes byfore / & called them Antidichomarians , that is to say Maries aduersaryes .

Then say I fynally that for as mych as it well & playne appereth , that all those holy connynge men and blessed sayntes / & therwyth all the whole catholyke chyrch bysyde , haue euer hytherto taken the perpetuall virginyte of our blessed lady for so sure a poynte of crysten fayth and bylyefe , that they haue euer condemned the contrary for an heresye / and then syth the artycle is not in holy scrypture wryten , but that the wordes of scrypture not well vnderstanden , seme to say the contrary : I may & do agaynst Tindale & his felowes well and fully conclude , that there is some thynge necessary to be byleued , and yet is not writen in scripture . And so to my secund argument , ye fynde his answere fonde . For as for his story fayth / wyth onely whych he sayth we byleue this poynt : I shall touche yt I trust in ●uch wyse , & his felynge fayth ther wyth when I come thereto / that euery man shall fele wyth hys fyngers endes , that Tyndale feleth neyther fayth , lernynge , reason , wyt , nor grace . I alledged in my dialoge the wordes of saynte P●ule to the Corynthies , where he wryteth vnto them of the holy howsell : As our lorde hath delyuered yt to me , so haue I delyuered yt to you . To this doth Tyndale answere thus .

Tyndale .

And when he alledgeth Paule to the Corinthies : I say that Paule neuer knewe of this worde masse / neither can any man gather therof any straunge holy gestures , but the playne contrary / and that there was no nother vse there then to breke the brede among them at soper , as Crist dyd . A and therfore he calleth it Cristes super and not masse .

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Here goth Tyndale aboute to iugle / but his gallys be to greate . I layed those wordes for none other cause , but to proue that the apostle byfore his wrytynge taught them that great mystery by mouth / and shewed them the manner hym selfe byfore his pystle writen / which he wold not haue wryten vnto them at all , yf he myght then conueniently haue ben present wyth them . And now where I sayed that yt was well lykely , that of saynt Poule by his present tradycyon was receyued holy gestures as the chyrche vseth in the consecracyon : he answereth me that there is no suche thynge there spoken in the pystle . whyche I sayed not there was / but I saye that he fyndeth no worde in the pyst●e that proueth that saynt Poule therin wrote euery thyng that he presently spake or dyd . But yt appereth well that saynt Poule speketh of that thynge in that chapyter , not to put in wrytynge all thynge that he hadde byfore tolde them by mouth / but onely to put them in remembraunce that the thyng whyche they there receyued in the forme of brede , though yt were called brede , was yet in dede the very blessed bodye of Cryste . And for the more clere profe therof : he put them in remembraunce / that as he hadde byfore shewed them , our sauyour hym self told hym so . And this he remembred them of by wrytyng , to make them vse them self there after the more reuerently . For lakke wherof he wryteth to them , that sykenesse and deth by the vengeaunce of god fell amonge them / bycause they dyd not vse suche reuerence & honour as they sholde do to the precyouse body and blessed blood of Cryste . And in that chapiter saynt Poule speketh but of certayne vnreuerent poyntes in specyall / and concludeth sayeng , caetera autem quum venero disponam / the remanaunt or all the other thynges , I wyll my self order at my commyng . Here may we se what so euer Tyndale saye , that saynte Poule bysyde thys that he wrote of the sacrament , gaue the people other tradycyons thereof by mouth ( as I sayde in my dialoge ) p●cteynynge to the reuerence and honour therof , and Tyndale sayeth here the contrarye . But now let the boke be iudge / and by that chapiter iudge also the false fayth of Tyndale , that sayth yt is synne to do any honour to yt .

And where Tyndale sayth that saynt Poule neuer know thys worde masse , I byleue that well inough / for I neuer herd that he spake any word of englyshe . But that he knew not the thynge that englyshe men call the masse / Tyndale hath not proued yet , nor wyll not do this weke . For he must proue yt better then by that saynte Poule spake of goddes supper . For we call the howselynge of the people goddes borde and Crystes table / and yet we know the masse to for all that besyde . And the apostles them selfe I dowte not sayd masse many a tyme & oft before any gospell wryten . And holy saynte Chrysostheme sayeth that the apostles in the masse prayed for all crysten soules .

where as I sayd that of the apostles tradicyon was lerned the maner of consecracyon : that answereth Tyndale in this wise .

Tyndale .

A great dowte / as though we coulde not gather of the scrypture how to do yt .

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Surely men settynge no more therby then Tyndale and his felowes do : may gather out of the gospell or the pystle eyther , or out of what they wyll , the maner of the consecracyon , & saynge of the masse that shall serue them self● whyle they say yt they care not how , & byleue they care not what / whyle they byleue yt to be none oblacyon , hoste , nor sacryfyce / nor the body nor blood of Criste to be in the sacrament / nor that the masse doth any man good at all , saue onely to the preste him selfe . For what care they how they say masse / whyche the more synfull they be , and the more encombred conscyence that they haue / the more encombred , & the more boldely as Luther byddeth in Babilonica● presume they to goddes borde . But vndouted who so haue a reuerent care therof , and ryght fayth of the sacrament / well percey●eth that how to saye masse hathe ben taught the apostles by the spiryte of god , and by the apostles forth . And yf Luther , frere Huskyn , zwinglius , Ty●dale , and Lambert , hadde neuer knowen it afore / but shold haue taken the scripture in theyr handes , and eche of them deuyse a maner of sayng masse by hym selfe : I dare well saye for all Tyndales boste , eche of them sholde haue deuysed a sondry fashyon , and yet neuer one of the ryght . For profe wherof Luther hym self castyng awaye the holy canon of the masse / frameth after his fonde fashyon a maner of consecracyon and saynge of the masse in hys boke of Babilonica . whyche folyshe inuencyon of hys Rosseus impugneth and playnely proueth , that sauyng for the tradycyon of the chyrche , Luther coulde neuer tell how or in what wyse to consecrate or saye masse / and that the way that Luther deuyseth is vnsuffycyent and vncertayne by Luthers awne rule . And I doute not but that Tyndale hathe redde both Rosseus and Luther in those places / and therfore I meruayle so myche the more that he dare be so bolde to saye yt / when beynge hym selfe but Luthers scoler , he seeth his mayster made a fole therin all redy .

where as I in my dialoge alledge , that the preste in the consecracyon putteth water in to the wyne , where as the scrypture speketh but of wyne : therto answereth Tyndale thus .

Tyndale .

A great dowte also and a perilouse case yf yt were lefte out . For eyther yt was done to slake the hete of the wyne / or put to after a ceremonye , to signifye that as the water is chaunged into wyne , so are we chaunged thorow fayth as yt were into Cryste , and are one wyth hym . How be yt all is to theyr owne shame , that ought sholde be done or vsed amonge vs crysten , wherof no man wiste the meanynge . For yf I vnderstode not the meanynge / yt helpeth me not one corne .1 . Corinth. 14. and as experience teacheth . But yf our sheperdes had bene as wyllynge to ●ede as to shere : we hadde neded no such dispycyēce , ner they to haue burnt so many as they haue .

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where Tyndale sayth in skorne ( as he gladly scorneth alway when he speketh of the sacrament ) that yt were a great doute and a perylouse case to leue the water oute : I am very sure that yf there hadde be not dowte nor parell to leue yt out / there was neuer good crysten man that any reuerence hadde to Cryste , but he wold haue put great dowte , & haue thought yt great parell to put any water in . For what best wolde be so bolde when he fyndeth not that Cryste in the consecracyon and chaunge of the wyne into hys owne blood , vsed any other thynge then wyne● and spake also hym selfe of the onely lycoure of the grape : who durste I say haue put therto any thynge ellys / and to haue consecrated his blood of wyne and water . But one thynge is there that maketh Tindale in this poynt so bolde / that is to wyt his owne spyrytuall rule that he so myche bosteth of , in serchyng out the cause , and then rulynge all thynge by some cause of his owne makynge . As here , he gesseth here two causes why the water is putte in . And though he wote nere whyther of the twayn is the trewth / yet he maketh hym selfe sure that yt must nedys be the tone . And then rekeneth he the causes both twayne so substancyall / that yt maketh in his mynde no mater why ther the thyng be done or vndone .

Luther was hym selfe also so meshed in thys mater , when the kynges hyghnesse layed agaynste hym the puttynge of the water into the wyne , that in hys frantyke answere he fared as Tyndale doth here / and not wyttynge what to saye therto , began to gesse at the cause wherfore it was put in : wherin he sought so farre / that at last he founde , that whyther it were in or out it made no mater , bycause he sayd it was a thynge impertynent to the mater / so that by hym a man myght put into the wyne what he wolde besyde . yet then founde he forther that it is euyll done to put it in . For he sayed it had an euyll sygnyfycacyon / and sygnyfyed that the syncerite of scrypture was watered with mennes tradycyons . Lo so was he be wrapped therin , that he coude not in thys worlde wyt what to say therto / but farynge lyke a frantyque fole , and answerynge thys and that he wyste nere what nor at what poynt to holde hym , fynally fell to blasphemy . And now his good scolar Tyndale wyll be nothynge a knowen of hys maysters foly , but diuyneth and deuyseth two new causes of hys owne brayne / and affyrmeth that some one of those twayne muste nedys be the very cause / as though god hym selfe coude fynde no ferther cause then Tyndale hath serched out / and then he theruppon concludeth , that they water may be as well lefte out as put in .

But what so euer Tyndale saye / there was neuer good man yet thys .xv. C. yere that durste leue it out / nor other wyse vse it than god hath taught his apostles with his owne worde vnwryten otherwyse then in crysten hartes .

Holy sayntes also haue thought vppon other causes . For some haue thought that god ordayned the water to be mengled wyth the wyne , as the water welled out wyth the blood out of hys blessed harte vppon the crosse . And holy saynt Cypriane that connynge doctour and blessed martyr theruppon sayth , that our sauyour hym selfe at the tyme of the instytucyon of that blessed sacrament , dyd put water in to wyne , though there was no mencyon made therof in the wrytyng / no more then there was of dyuers other thynges that our sauyour dyd as saynt Iohn sayth , & that he wolde haue to be done in hys chyrche euer after . Of whyche thynges thys infusyon of water is one , taught vndoughtedly by god to hys apostles , and by them forth / and so thys .xv. hundred yeres contynued in Crystes chyrche wythout any mencyon therof made in scrypture , & yet men of necessyte bounden to obserue it / nor no man euer thought or durst thynke the contrary● tyll now Luther and Tyndale and suche other of theyr sorte● whyche set so lytell by that blessed sacrament , that they wolde haue all honour and reuerence taken from it , and rekened for a bare sygne set but onely to sygnyfye , wythout any geuynge of grace / and therfore they wolde haue yt homely handeled how so euer men lyste . Deuyse ones some sygnyfycacyon / & then wold those heretykes by theyr wyllys , that in stede of wyne and water , men wolde consecrate new ale in cornes .

Now where he sayth that it is the shame of the clergy if aught be vsed amonge crysten men , wherof no man wyste the meanynge : why more then for Moyses to delyuer and leue to the people many ceremonyes commaunded by god , wherof the people what so euer Tyndale saye neuer vnderstode the meanynge . wold the wyse man that yf god bydde a man do a thynge / he shall saye hym nay but yf he tell hym why ?

Then fynysheth he this mater wyth a proper taunt , that yf our shepeherdes were as willynge to fede as to shere : we hadde neded no suche dyspycyons / nor they to haue burned so many as they haue .

Lo the great faute that Tyndale fyndeth in that the prelates do not as he doth , deuyse causes at auenture and warraunt them for trewe / nor leue out the water boldely vppon hys goostly consayle now , agaynste the fayth of all faythfull folke this .xv. hondred yere byfore .

And where he layeth that the slaknesse of fedyng hath caused so many to be burned : I wyll not saye naye but that yt myght haue been better with some , if there had ben vsed more dilygence in preachyng . But as f●r many such as haue ben burned / all the pchynge in the world wold not haue holpen theyr obstynacy . But sure yf the prelates had taken as good hede in tyme as they sholde haue done : there sholde peraduenture at length fewer haue ben burned therby . But there shold haue ben mo burned by a great many then there haue ben wythin this seuen yere laste passed . The lakke whereof I fere me will make mo burned within this seuen yere next commynge / then ellys sholde haue neded to haue ben burned in seuen score .

where I alledged the chaunge of the sabbaoth daye into the sonday wythout scrypture : thereto he answereth thus .

Tyndale .

As for the sabbaoth a great mater . We be lordes ouer the sabbaoth day , and may yet chaunge yt into the monday , or any other day as we se nede / or may make euery tenth day holyday onely yf we se a cause why . we may make two euery weke yf yt were expedient , and one not inough to teacke the people . Neyther was there any cause to chaunge yt from the satterdaye , then to put dyfference betwene vs and the Iewes / and leste we shuld be come seruauntes vnto the daye after theyr superstycyon . Neyther neded we any holy day at all , yf the people myght be taught wythout yt .

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Tyndale maketh the chaunge of the sabbat daye a very sleyght mater . And bycause that our sauyour sayde of hym selfe , that the sonne of man , that is to wytte he hym selfe was lorde of the sabbat daye : therefore as though euery man were god almyghty his felow , Tyndale sayth that we be lordes of the sabbat day , so that we may chaung the sondaye into mondaye .

He sayth that there was neuer cause to chaung it fro satterday , but onely to put a difference betwene vs & the Iewes , and leste we sholde bycome seruauntes vnto the daye after theyr superstycyon . But I thynke there was bysyde thys a nother cause more pryncypall then any of both those . For the Iewes and the crysten hadde other dyfferences and dystynccyons betwene them / as baptysme and cyrcumcysyon . Nor yt hadde not ben so great inconvenience that they shold both haue serued god on one daye , that for the auoydyng therof we sholde haue lefte the daye that god hym selfe appoynted in the begynnynge . And also crysten men both myght haue kepte the same daye that the Iewes kepte , and yet haue left the superstycyon therof that the Iewes vse . And may nowe also ( as happely some do ) kepe the sonday wyth lyke superstycyon as the Iewes do the saterday . And therefore these causes be but dyuyned and gessed at , and seme but very secundary . But the very cause of the chaung is / that men were not the lordes of the sa●batday , nor men were not the pryncypall authours and makers of the chaunge . But the sonne of man our sauyour . Cryste hym selfe , beynge ( as he sayde hym selfe ) lorde euen ouer the sabbatday to / and whyche as god hadde made and ordeyned the sabbatdaye for man and not man for the sabbatday , and yet neuerthelesse subdued man vnto certayne order of seruynge not the sabbatday but god vppon the sabbatday : he I saye hym selfe when he delyuered the people from the obseruaunce of the olde law , dyd as lorde of the sabbatday , dyscharge them of the sabbatday .

And yet bycause they sholde not haue suche a lordely mynde as Tyndale here teacheth vs to haue / as to thynke they myght at theyr pleasure take what day they wolde , and make and breke as they lyste : he appoynted them hym selfe and his owne holy spyrite , the day of his owne resurreccion . whyche gloryouse rysynge of his blessed body not onely to reste , but also to eternall glory : it pleased hym to haue wekely celebrate wyth the restynge day drawen from wordely besynes , to the desyre of heuen & acceptable seruyce of god . And for this is yt and euer hath ben specyally called our lordes daye . wherof to say that we be now the lordes and able to chaunge yt to fryday for our pleasure , or turne yt to euery tenth day when we lyste : I wene that none wyll saye so but lurdanes , that longed to make gaudyes of goddes passyon , or make hym honored selder then he shold . For as for nede / fell there neuer none such yet , to chaunge this day that Cryste hath ordeyned hym self . And he is as able to kepe it from such nede of chaunge for euer here after / as he hath kepte yt this xv . hundred yere byfore .

If Tyndale stykke styll in this poynte / & say the chyrche made yt and the chyrch may breke yt : I say that the chyrch as yt made yt so yt maye breke yt . That is to wyt that as yt made yt by the spiryte of god , so yt may breke yt by the same spiryte . That is to say that as god made yt , so hym self may breke yt , yf yt so shall please hym . For in suche thynges though the chyrche haue ordeyned yt : yet hath the chyrche not done yt but the spiryte of god / as holy saynte Austayne sayth in the receyuynge of ou● howsell , where he sayth that yt hath pleased the holy goost , that where as in the bygynnynge yt was receyued after other meatys , yt shode be now receyued of folke whyle they be fastynge .

And in lyke wyse the apostles , to geue vs knowlege that though the chyrche make the ordinaunce , yet the spyryt of god is the worker therof : wrote as is remembred in the .xv. of the actes : It hath pleased the holy goost and vs , & so forth shewed what lawes they had made / declarynge therby that though them selfe made them , yet made they them not wyth out the mocyon of goddes holy spiryte . And neuer shall the whole catholyque chyrche , neyther make wythout god nor breke agayne wythout hym . But he shall wyth hys presence and hys holy spyryte , so gyde and gouerne hys chyrch in suche manner of thynges / that they shall not chaung● chaunge the sondaye neyther of lordely mynde● pleasure , nor necessyte . Nor I thynke he shall neuer suffer the chyrch to chaunge it . But it is a chaunge ones so made and establysshed by our sauyour hym selfe , that as the saterdaye was ordeyned by god hym selfe to stande vnchaunged tyll Cryst came / so is Crystes daye so ordeyned by hym selfe● that it shall stande vnchaunged tyll hym selfe come agayne , & chaunge all the weke and all the yere to into one eternall daye wythout eyther weke or yere . And thys chaunge hath he made I saye fro saterdaye to sondaye hym selfe wythout scrypture / whyche we be bounden wythout scrypture obedyentely to kepe and obserue , what so euer Tyndale bable and scoffe agaynste it .

For where Tyndale sayth that we be suche lordes ouer it , that we maye chaunge and make our sabbatdaye as well vppon any other daye as vppon the sondaye : I wolde wyt of hym whyche we ? whyther the hole catholyke chyrche or euery pertyculare prouynce / and yf so , then euery dyocyse / and by the same reason , euery parysshe by it selfe / and then any howsholde / and fynally any one man is by hym selfe at the same lybertye to kepe for hys owne sabbat daye whyche daye he lyste hym selfe , and nede not to come to chyrche wyth other but whan there is a sermone . And then ye wote well thys waye wolde do well . Now yf he meane by we , all we the hole chyrche of Cryst by a comen consent : then must he tell vs whyche is it , and then muste he nedes assygne a knowen chyrche . where is then becomen hys heresye of theyr secrete vnknowen chyrche of electes and penytentes wythout penaunce ?

And where he sayth we nede none holydaye at all yf the people myghte be taught wythout it : thys is one drawght of hys poyson putte forth vnder the swete pretexte of preachynge . wherby syth preachynge is necessary / he wolde make men byleue that commynge to chyrche on the holy-day , or there to honour god wyth dyuyne seruyce and prayour , were but a thynge of nought / where as the apostles came them selfe in to the temples in the holydayes to praye . And our sauyour alledgeth hym selfe the wordes of Esay : Esaiae .51 . My howse shall be called the howse of prayour .

Now where as I alledged in my dyaloge the wordes of saynte Poule vnto the Thessalonycenses , to whom he wryteth in thys wyse : kepe you my tradycyons whych I haue taken you , eyther by worde or letter : to this doth Tyndale answere no●hynge to me , but thys .

Tyndale .

I haue to that answered Rochester in the obedience / that his tradicyons were the gospell that he preached .

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In very dede Tyndale in hys boke of disobedyence laboreth sore to wade out of those wordes of saynte Poule / in whyche as my lorde of Rochester sayed , it appereth playne that saynt Poule sayth hym selfe that he taught thynges by mouth whyche he wrote not . And what sayth Tyndale to it there ? he sayth nothyng ellys in this world but as he sayth here / that the thynges whiche saynt Poule taught by mouth , were the selfe same thynges that he wrote . And then goeth he forth wyth a longe babelary , parte to no purpose & parte playne heresye / and fareth as though hym selfe had standen by all the whyle that saynt Poule taughte any thynge by mouth . Now whyther hys w●rdes be to purpose or not / I pray you consyder your selfe .

we saye that these sacramentes and many holy ceremonyes vsed in the chyrche in the masse and in other partes of dyuyne seruyce / were taught by the spyryte of god and delyuered by hys blessed apostles . Nay sayth Tyndale that coude not be / for all necessarye thynges that they taught they wrote . Proue that say we and take all . But we wyll proue by saynt Poules owne wordes , that he taught thinges that he wrote not . For he byddeth the Thessalonicensis kepe and obserue well all that he had taught them , eyther by mouth or letters / & then that none of them were any necessary poyntes , that poynt we byd Tindale proue . His profe therin ye haue herd before / that yf the apostles wrote not all suche thynges , what coude it auayle that they wrote any thinges at all . And that reason ye remember that we haue a●swered before / and proued it a great foly , to reken that in our owne realme no law byndeth that is vnwryten , bycause there be many wryten / or that theyr wrytynge were vnprofytable that wrote vs parte , bycause they wrote vs not all . But now in that place of the obedyence , where the rude rybaude rayleth agaynste the reuerende father my lorde bysshop of Rochester : he sayth styffely that none of those thynges whyche we speke of , and specyally sacramentes or ceremonyes , were any of those thynges that saynt Paule taught by mouth . Then aske we hym wherby know you that . Mary sayeth he , for I shall tell you what he taughte . He taughte the same that he wrote / and hys tradycyons were the gospell that he preached / and good maners and vertues , and some good custumes to , that be synnes for abuses chaunged , as ●ys●ynge eche other . And some he taught as preceptes , and some as good counsay●es / as virginite , and wydolye chastyte , not to ●ynne heuen therby ( For neyther cyrcumcysyon nor vncyrcumcysyon is any thynge at all , but the kepynge of the commaundementes is all togyder ) but that they myghte be without trowble , and the better wayte on goddys wordes , and the frelyer serue theyr bretherne .

Here I passe by his heresyes , that in these wordes appere bothe agaynst vyrgynyte and wydoly chastyte / whyche he meaneth to be nothynge worth as touchynge any rewarde to be gyuen for them in heuyn . For though he say no ferther here but that they wynne not heuyn , whyche euery man agreeth : yet meaneth he ferther as he declareth in many other places / and as it here appereth by hys ensample of circumcysyon . I let passe also hys heresye concernyng the cyrcumcysyon , whyche wyth hys false vnderstandynge of saynte Poule , he wolde haue taken ●o haue standen in no stede at all towarde heuen / and by the same reason no more he wold that baptysme neyther , as he hath oftentymes declared .

I let passe also / that by those wordes of saynte Poule whyche hym selfe now bryngeth in , that the kepynge of the commaundementes is all togyther , hys owne heresyes be ouer throwen . For yf the kepynge of the commaundementes be all together / then fayth alone is not all together . But rather as he maketh cyrcumcysyon nothynge , bycause the commaundementes be all : so myghte he make fayth nothyng bycause the commaundementes be all togyther . But he maketh saynt Poules wordes to serue hym for hys iuglynge stykke . For saynte Poule meaneth of cyrcumcysyon alone in the olde lawe , wyth fayth and good workes / as saynte Iamys speketh of fayth . And in the new law now it is nothynge at all in dede .

These wordes also of saynt Poule destroye Tyndales heresye , that mennys good workes be not rewarded in heuyn / and that it is idolatrye to serue god wyth any bodyly workes , or to do any of them to come the rather to heuen . For yf the kepyng of the commaundementes be all togyther / and some of them be bodyly workes : a man maye lawfully do them for goddys sake , and to his worshyp to , and haue his rewarde in heuen to .

But now lettyng these poyntes passe as I saye : I wold aske Tyndale whyther amonge those poyntes that saynte Poule taught by mouth , & whyche he wrote not / were any thynges necessarye to be byleued or done , vppon parell of our soules helth . If he say ne : then destroieth he his whole reason that he made afore for the contrarye / where he sayde that yf the apostles taught any suche thynges & wrote them not , what auayleth all those thynges that they wrote . If he saye nay / but that all the thynges that he taught by mouth , were thynges of lytle weyght , and not worth the wrytyng / and that therfore he wrote vnto the Corinthyes that all the other thynges he wold dispose and ordayne hym selfe at his commynge , bycause he rekened them not worthy to occupy place in hys pystle : yf Tyndale tell vs thys , we wyll aske hym who tolde hym so / and wherby he knoweth that saynte Poule taught the people by mouth , no mo thynges , nor of none other kynde then Tyndale sayth he dyd . was hym self at that tyme companyon to saynt Poule / and that so contynuall and so vnseparable , that daye nor nyght he neuer departed from hym / but euer watched hym so surely , that he coulde neuer saye nothynge but Tyndale stode by and herd hym ?

Tyndale in this poynt well perceyueth hym selfe , howe harde a parte he hath to proue . And therfore seynge that he hath entrede a mater that he can not ende / & hath sayd that he can neuer make good : at laste he waxeth angry . And bycause he can not tell all thynge that saynt Poule taught , as he beganne to take vppon hym : he concludeth nothyng but that saynt Poule taught none of the sacramentes nor ceremonyes that Luther and he reproue . And thus he sayth .

Tyndale .

But that the apostles gaue vs any blynde ceremonies , whereof we coulde not knowe the reason / that I denye and also defye .

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Forsoth saue for the ryme I wolde not geue a ryshe , neyther for his denyeng nor for hys defyenge , nor for any reason that he layeth forth therfore .

For where he sayth that yt is contrary to the lernynge of saynt Poule euery where : I say that therein Tindale sayth not trew . For saynt Poule reproued but the superstyciouse truste that the iewes hadde , as well in theyr ceremonyes & sacramentes , as in the workes of theyr law wythout fayth and iustyce and dedes of cheryte / and the superstycyon 〈◊〉 them also that thought theym selfe bounden of necessyte to kepe them styll after the new lawe promulgate and spred about / when the tyme of those olde ceremonyes , sacramentes , iudycyalles , & all was gone / sauynge for as farreforth as the chyrch of Cryst by the spiryte of god hath taken vp any a●ayne . But let Tyndale brynge of saynt Poule all the places that he possyble can / and he shall neuer fynde one whyle he lyueth amonge them all , in whyche saynte Poule reproueth any sacrament or ceremony taken vppe and accompted for good thorow Crystes whole catholyque chyrche / nor yet the iewes for vsynge the ceremonyes geuen by god to Moyses , and by Moyses to them for the tyme whyle they serued , though they knew not the sygnyfycacyons / excepte yt were for lakke of some other vertue , whych they lefte of & rought not for / and thereby loste the frute of theyre ceremonyes at all .

One other thynge he sayth whych he taketh for an hygh poynt , to proue that saynt Poule taught no ceremonyes or sacramentes , but suche as h● taught also theyr sygnyfycacyons . And that he proueth thus .

Tyndale .

Paule commaundeth that no man ones speke in the chyrche that is the congregacyon , but in a tonge that all men vnderstnade / excepte that there be an interpreter by .

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And what than ? At suche tyme as the lawe was gyuen fyrste to the chyldern of Israel / yt was in dede wryten in a tonge that the people vnderstode . But yet the ceremonyes though they were wryten in the same tonge , yet were there many of them that the people neuer vnderstode what they ment , nor peraduenture Moyses neyther / and yet were they bounden of obedyence to obserue them / and theyr obedyence was frutefull to , but yf that some other faute made yt lese the frute .

And therfore where Tyndale telleth a longe tale that saynt Paule commaundeth them to labour for knowelege , vnder ●tadynge , felynge / and beware of hypocrosye , ceremonyes , and all maner of dysguysynge , and many such wordes mo , some of saynt Poule & some of his owne planted in among them : hys tale semeth somwhat solemne , but yt is nothyng substauncyall . For the sacramentes a●d ceremonys geuen by god vnto 〈◊〉 chyrch , be neyther hipocrisye nor iudaycall ceremonyes , nor dysguysynges neyther / whyche worde Tyndale setteh in hym selfe in scorne as yt semeth of the blessed sacrament of the auter . Nor saynt Poule though he wold haue them labour for knowlege / meaneth not yet they shall leue the sacramentes vnserued which god hath taught , tyll he teche them the knowlege why he taught them , and what specyall sygnyfycacyon euery sacrament & ceremony had .

For where as Tyndale rymeth yt out , and sayth that he both denyeth and also defyeth , that the apostles taught any ceremonye wherof the reason coulde not be knowen : for all hys denyeng and also defyenge , a better man then the apostles dyd , our sauyour Cryste hym selfe , when he sent is dy●cyples forth to baptyse and to preache / he taught them how they sholde go and what they sholde do , but the reason and cause of euery ceremony that fynde we not that euer he taught them / but at some of them he suffred both them then , and vs euer synnes , to gesse and to dyuyne .

For that he wolde haue them neyther bere walet , nor sachell , nor shone vppon theyr ●●te , nor stykke in theyr hand , nor salute any man by the way , nor why he chose water and baptisme in stede of circumcisyon , nor why he wold they shold lay theyr handes vppon some syke folke whom they shold hele , nor why they shold anoynt syke folke wyth oyle & hele them by that meane : the causes I say and the proper sygnyfycacyons of all these ceremonyes and many other , we fynd not that our sauyour when he sent them shewed them / and yet he bode them do yt , and they were bounde to obaye and meryted and deserued by theyr obedyence . Myche more than he sholde haue done , who so wolde haue sayde , tell me fyrst good lorde why maye I not putte on my shone , why maye I not take a stykke in myne hande , what arte thou the better thought I go bare fote , what shall yt hurte the mater though I bere a stykke , why were yt not as good to smere a syke man wyth butter as anoynt hym wyth oyle / tell me the causes of all those thynges and the proper sygnifycacyon ere I go . For ellys to say that I wyll be sent out with such dumme ceremonyes , wherof I know not the causes , that I denye and also defye . He that thus sholde haue sayd lyke Tyndale / shold haue goten lytle thanke .

And as I haue byfore somwhat say●e / almyghtye god taught many ceremonyes to Moyses , and he forth to ●he people / and neyther can Tyndale nor any man elips proue me by scrypture , that the people vuderstode all theyr sygnyfycacyons / no nor Moyses neyther . And where is then Tyndales worshyppefull ryme , that I denye and also defye ?

I lette passe all the ceremonyes taught about the arche , the temple , the sacryfyces , and many other thynges / & wyll wyt but howe Tyndale can proue me that the chyldern of Israell , or as I saye Moyses eyther , vnderstode all the ceremouyes commaunded by god about theyr departyng out of Egypte ? why a lambe , why a kydde , why of one yere , why wythout spotte , why taken the .x. daye , why offred the xiiii , why the vengauns of god put fro the house at the token of the blood put vppon the postes , why eaten by nyght , why none lefte tyll the morow , but rather the remanaunt burnte , why vnleuened brede , why wylde letuse . I knowe well god wyste why he commaunded all those ceremonyes / but I saye Tyndale can not proue that the people vnderstode them all , nor peraduentnre that Moyses neyther .

If Tyndale yet say that the people vnderstode all those ceremonyes : I wyll fyrste bydde hym proue me that poynt by scrypture . And then for some lykelyhed towarde a profe of the contrary / I wyll laye forth for authorite agaynst wyllyam Tyndale , the wordes of one man whom Tyndale wold were moste byleued of all men / that is to wytte the wordes of wyllyam Tyndale hym selfe . For hym selfe sayth in hys boke agaynste me .

Tyndale .

Cryste axed the apostles Matth. xv , whom they toke hym for . And Peter answered for them all / saynge● I say that thou art Cryste the sonne of the lyuynge god , that art come into this worlde . That is , we byleue that thou art he that was ꝓmysed vnto Abraham , shuld come and blesse vs and delyuer vs . How be yt Peter yet wyste not by what meanes . But now yt is opened thorow out all the worlde , that thorow the offerynge of hys body and bloude .

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Now syth as Tyndale sayth hym selfe , saynt Peter at the tyme dyd not knowe by what meane Cryste sholde redeme vs / and yt is very lykely that saynte Peter al be yt he was not yet fully lerned , dyd yet at the tyme goynge to scole wyth Cryste , vnderstande as myche at the leste wyse as the comen peple dyd euen in Moyses days : I thynke therfore the Tyndale sholde hym selfe agre contrary to that hym selfe hathe sayde byfore , that the people vnderstode not all the ceremonyes . And yet I thynke he wyll not saye that they myght at that tyme leue all such vndone / and say as Tyndale sayth , all that vtterly we denye and also defye .

I wolde fayne wyt wherfore Tyndale sholde take it for so straunge , that god or hys apostles sholde gyue vnto Crystes chyrche any ceremonyes , wherof they sholde not vnderstande the reason / when he seeth well that god hath spoken to his people many wordes by his prophetes and his owne sonne , and hys sonnes apostles to , and caused them to be wryten also in holy scrypture / in whyche textes men be no more sure of the very sentence then of the very sygnyfycacyon of those ceremonyes . But god hath not wythout oure frute lefte suche thynges vnknowen vnto vs , to quykken & e●ercyse as saynte Austayne sayth some mennys myndes in the studye and deuysynge theruppon / whyche yf all were open and playne , wolde waxe neglygent and dull / and now in the deuysynge theruppon , fynde out good and frutefull thynges , allegoryes and other , not affermynge those to be the very thynges there entended ●ut thynges that deuoutely & frutefully may be thereon taken and turne men to deuocyon , and thys as well in the ceremonyes as in those harde and not intellygyble textes . And yf Tyndale deny thys / bycause he wolde seme sure of all thynge , and that there were no place in scrypture to hym not vnderstanden : he shall whyle he wolde seme so wyse , proue hym selfe a fole in the iugement of all men , that any thynge laboure in scrypture . And thus ye se now in what substancyall wyse that Tyndale hath answered my lorde of Rochester , vnto the playne wordes of saynt Poule wryten vnto the Thessalonycenses / by whych wordes he sheweth playnely hym selfe , that he wrote not all that he taught . And then that these thynges whyche Tyndale impugneth , why that they myghte not be among those thynges that saynt Poule taughte by mouth / ye haue herde I say how wourshypfully Tyndale hath proued .

I were lothe to leue vntouched any thyng that Tyndale any where sayeth agaynste my purpose in thys mater . And therfore syth I fynde in hys answere to my dyaloge yet a nother patche , wherin I perceyue he taketh great pleasure / and weneth or wolde at the lest that other men sholde wene , that he had therwyth vtterly proued hys parte and clerely reproued myne : I wyll wythdrawe none of hys glory , and therfore ye shall here that to . In hys answere to the .xxix. chapyter of my fyrste boke these are hys wordes .

Tyndale .

In the .xxix. chapyter M. More alledgeth , that Cryste s●yed not the 〈◊〉 goost shall wryte , but shall teache . It is not the vse to saye t●● holy 〈◊〉 writeth / but inspyreth the wryter .

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Properly answered , yf I wolde holde my peace . But I muste put Tyndale agayne in remembraunce bycause he byleueth nothyng but scrypture , and then draweth all the scripture into goddes promyses : I muste therfore I say putte hym in remembraunce that I brought in that authoryte to shew hym that god made no promyse that he wolde wryte all his new testament , nor cause yt to be made all in bokes / but that he wolde sende his holy goost to teche his chyrch & to lede them into euery trouth . And where Tyndale sayth it is not the vse to say the holy goost writeth but inspyreth the wryter / I say agayne that the scrypture letteth not to speke of goddes writyng / & to tell how he wyll wryte his new testament when he sayth by the mouth of the prophete Hieremy : I shall geue my law in theyr bowles / & I shall wryte yt in theyr hartes . Hi●r●m . ●1.

Lo here he telleth what maner of wrytyng he wyll vse in wrytynge of his newe law / bycause we shall not excuse our selfe & say , that we wyll not byleue no more thereof then we shall fynde wryten in bokes . He maketh vs no promyse that he wyll cause it to be wryten in bokes / but pursuyng these wordes of the prophete , he sayd hym selfe his owne mouth● that he wolde send the holy goost to come teache his chyrche & lede them in to euery trouth . To this will Tyndale happely say in the word he ment and so dyd the prophete also , that he wolde wryte yt in the hartes of the euangelystes and apostles and teache them & lede them ●nto euery trouth / whych shold put all the necessary trouth in wrytynge . Let Tyndale proue this meanynge by some one text of scripture , or some one necessary reason / of whyche neyther hym selfe , nor any other of his felowes haue founden any one yet . And the wordes as well of the prophete as of our sauyour hym selfe , declare them selfe to the contrary . For the prophete and the euangelyste sayth● E●●iae .54 Io●annis . ● . that they shal be all goddes owne scolers / whych sygnyfyeth that the congregacyon and companye shall be taught by god and his spyrite , that shall wryte the new law the ryght fayth in the hartes of hys chyrche . And our sauyour sayd , I shall sende the holy goost that shall teache you all thynge , and lede you into euery trouth . He sayde not the holy goost shall teche some of you that shall wryte yt out vnto the remanaunt . And therfore Tyndales comely glose wyll not so substauncyally serue hym , as he wolde haue yt seme . For as that holy spiryte enspired mo then them that wrote / so enspyred he the wryters in mo thynges then they wrote / whych thynges they taught by mouth , and lefte it wyth the people by tradycyon as god lefte it wyth them / whych thynge doth by theyr owne wordes well appere Iohannis .xxj , ad Thessalonicenses , 2. Thess. 2. ad Corynthios .xj. And yf these playne textes seme not yet suffycyent for our parte / let hym and all his felowes brynge forth some halfe texte halfe so suffycyent for theyr , parte prouynge that all is wryten and take all to gether .

But yet goth he farther and wolde seme of hys curtesye to helpe me somwhat forth , & say more than I could for myne owne parte / and yet auoyde yt to . For thus he sayth .

Tyndale .

I meruayle that he hadde not brought as many of his brethern do , Mathew in the laste / where Cryste commaunded the apos●les to go and teache all nacyons , and sayed not wryte .

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In dede this wolde haue ben well brought in there / and many of my brethern haue as he sayth brought yt in , & my selfe also some where ellys in places mo then one / whyche I now boste of , bycause ye shall se that Tyndale hathe not yet so gayly answered yt as to make me ashamed to laye yt forth agayne . For yf he could brynge out one texte so good for hym , as that is for vs / that is to saye , that lyke as my brethern fynde out that texte by whyche Cryste byddeth all his apostles go preache and teache hys gospell : so yf Tyndale or any of hys brethern could● fynde out any texte , in whyche Cryste hadde boden any of them go wryte hys gospell / lorde god how solemnely Tyndale wolde set yt out to the shewe ? And where as he now maketh lytle a do of Crystes word , byddyng them go preache : he wold make mych a do of his word , byddynge them go wryte . But nowe ye shall se what answere he maketh , & what he bringeth for the shote ancre of all his shyfte / to proue that they wrote euery necessary poynte .

Tyndale .

I answere that this precepte , loue thy neyghbour as thy selfe , and god aboue all thynge / went wyth the apostles and compelled them to seke goddes honour in vs , and to seke all meanes to continue the fayth vnto the worldes ende . Now the apostles knew byfore that heresyes sholde come / and therfore wrote that yt myght be a remedy agaynste heresyes as yt well appereth Iohn .xxi. where he sayth these are wryten that ye byleue , and thorow bylyfe haue lyfe . And in the second of his first pistle he saith : these I write bycause of them that deceyue you . And Peter and Paule there to , warne vs in many place . Wherfore it is manifeste that the same loue compelled them to leue nothyng vnwriten , that shold be necessarely requyred / and that yf yt were lefte out sholde hurte the soule .

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Lo now haue ye herde his vttermost , wherby he preueth vs that they wrote all to gether that is of necessite to be knowen . whych he proueth not as ye se by any scrypture proper for the poynte / as that any of them hadde any specyall commaundement to write : but that theyr cheryte droue them to yt . whyche he proueth by a deduccyon vppon this commaundement , loue god aboue all thynge , and thy neyghbour as thy selfe . For theruppon as he deduced afore that women may synge masse , and muste in tyme of nede : so he deduceth now that the apostles were by the same cheryte dreuen by theyr wrytynge , to prouyde agaynste heresyes whyche they saw sholde come / and that coulde they not suffycyently do , but yf they prouyded a lyke agaynste all heresyes , ergo they wrote euery necessary trouth . This argument is god wote full pore , syke , and sore / & myght syt at saynte Sauyons a beggynge wyth a dyshe and a clapper , for any thynge that yt can helpe yt selfe / yt is so blynde and lame & lakketh so many lymmes / & yet hath it one the mo for me that Tyndale forgate to sette in . But yet lakketh he bothe hys legges for all that , and his yien , and his handes , and his brayne to . For he muste sette in , that they whych wrote , knew well euery heresye , that euer shold spryng after theyr days , and this muste he proue by scrypture .

He muste also sette in , that no mo of the apostles knewe that poynte but onely those that wrote : or ellys that the tother coulde not wryte nor god coulde not teache them / or fynally that eache of them redde others wrytynge , and so saw that all was writen by theyr felowes / & then caried all theyr felowes writynge wyth them into the countres where them selfe preched , and lefte yt there . And this muste he proue me by scrypture / for ellys he saueth not vpperyght the cheryte of saynte Andrew nor saynte Bartlemew , that wrote nothynge at all nor of saynt Peter in wrytyng lesse then saynt Poule / nor of saynt Iohn for leuynge out the consecracion at Crystes maundye .

He must also put in that they saw that wythout wrytyng god coude not kepe the poyntes of fayth amonge the people / for ellys the cheryte strayned them not of necessyte so sore to put all togyther in wrytynge .

He muste also put in , that all theyr wrytynge is kepte & reserued saufe , and euer shall tyll the daye of dome / for ellys he seeth what foloweth . And then knoweth he well that besyde corrupcyon of bokes , myche therof is lo●te / but yf he wyll saye that in that scrypture was nothynge necessary , but that it is in thys the remayneth . And then must he proue me that by scrypture ere I beleue hym . And ouer thys must he put in , that they haue wryten all thynge as clere as they myghte haue done to answere all heretykes wythall / for the thynge longed to cheryte to , yf of cheryte theyr purpose was to wryte agaynste all heresyes .

And yet whyche I had almost forgoten , he muste put in to , thys argument also , that they haue gyuen vs warnynge that they haue wryten all togyther that eyther than neded , or at any tyme after shold nede to be byleued or done , vppon payne of dedely synne . For thys is one of the very chyefe poyntes of all / & therfore thys muste he proue by scrypture . For ellys they lefte vs in daunger to byleue some other thynges mo then they wryte / namely synnys the some wrote not so mych as theyr felowes , sum confesse that they taught by mouth more then they wrote / and some wrote nothynge at all / and of that the other wrote , good parte loste / and of that wrytynge that remayneth , some corrupted by writers , some by prenters , and mych so hard that no man vnderstandeth .

And fynally muste he put in to thys argument also , that after theyr dayes Cryste wolde neuer shewe nor reuele any thynge to hys chyrche more / nor byd any of them any other thynge byleue or do then was put in wrytynge all redy by hys apostles / or ellys that though he wolde byd them any forther thynge at any tyme after eyther byleue or do : yet wolde he neuer be angry wyth them though they wold neyther byleue that he told them , nor do that he bode them / but tell hym well and playnely to hys teth , that yf he wolde be byleued or obayd , he shold haue made his apostles wryte it . Thys poynt specyally muste Tyndale amonge other proue me by playne and euydent scrypture . For ellys were it ye wote well a great parell for any man to saye nay to goddys specyall byddynge / though that specyall byddyng were not specyfyed in scrypture / but yf god haue playnely spoken in scrypture that he wyll neuer whyle he lyueth , eyther tell or bydde any other thynge then he hath all redy reueled or commaunded in scrypture .

Now se you good readers how syke , how sore and how feble his argument is / by whyche he wolde proue vs that the cheryte of the apostles droue them to put all necessary thynges in wrytynge . But yet hadde there almoste one reason of hys passed me vnware / whiche yf I hadde lefte vntowched , Tyndale wolde haue sayed I hadde dissymyled● and lefte vnanswered his chyefe reason of all . For where as his feble argument before touched , was but the cause that droue the apostles to leue nothynge vnwryten : he hath yet one , that sheweth the cause why and wherfore god wolde hym selfe haue euery necessary thynge wryten , and that ye wote well muste nedys be stronge / and therfore what strength is in it ye shall here . Thus he sayth .

Tyndale .

Now syr god hath made his lasie ●nd euerlastynge testament , and no more byhynde then the apperynge of Cryst agayne . And bycause he wyll not styrre vp euery daye a new prophete with a new myracle , to conferme new doctrine , or to call agayne the olde that was forgoten : therfore were all thynges necessary to saluacyon comprehended in scrypture euer to endure .

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If Tyndals bare worde be worthy to be taken for so greate authoryte , that what so euer he say men must byleue it , onely bycause Tyndale sayth it : then is this argument very sure and stronge / but than it is superfluouse & a great dele to longe . For then it sholde suffyse hym to saye , the apostles haue lefte all thynge in wrytynge , and let all hys reasons alone . But surely yf Tyndale be no better then other men / so that as he wyll byleue no man without playne scrypture , no man wythout playne scrypture is bounden to byleue hym : then is thys argument more feble yet then the tother . For he shall neuer make it stronge , neyther by playne s●rypture , nor good deduccyon , nor necessary consequense , nor any probable reason .

For fyrste how proueth he that all thynge is open . How proueth he that he vnderstandeth euery place in scrypture ? euery place in Genesys , euery place in the prophetes , euery place in the Psalter , euery place in saint Iohnns gospell , euery place in saint Poules pystles , euery place in the Apocalipsys . Be all these thynges open to Tyndale ? Is any man so mad to byleue hym therin vppon hys worde , bycause he boldely sayth in many places of his vngraciouse bokes , that the scrypture is easy to vnderstande / whych thyng he sayeth of an vngracyouse mynde , to make euery symple person bolde to take hym self for and interpreter .

But I dare be as bolde to say that the scripture ; all be yt many places be playn , & in the hardeste place good folke may take frute yf they play not as Tyndale doth , be bold vppon yt lyke blynde bayarde , & thynke it playn & open / yet is it not so open but that there is many a place in euery parte therof , so darke , & of such diffyculty / that there neyther is nor I wene neuer was synnys the apostles dayes , nor ꝑaduenture euery man amonge them neyther , that durst haue ben so bold to say that all thyng was so open to him / but that there may lye yet therein for all the vnderstandyng the men haue therof , many a great mystery hyd that neuer shal be clerely vnderstanden / tyll such tyme as god vppon the thynge done and shewed , shall by his spyryte promysed , sente , and assy●tent vnto his chyrche in the tymes conuenyente , and by god appoynted therunto , reuele yt / whyche thynges shall then be necessary poyntes , to be byleued , and nowe neyther necessarye to byleue , nor possyble to be thought vppon .

But when yt shall please god any suche thynges to do , shew , & reuele : he shall then sende no Luthers , nor no Tyndales , nor none Huskyns , nor no frere out of a nonnes bedde to preache yt / but he shall send suche holy messengers as he hath ben euer wonte about such besyn●sse to send , that shall not come with a false fayth , and euyll workes , and be accursed out of Crystes chyrche / but wyth the trewe catholyque fayth , and holy lyuynge , and reuerent handelynge of holy scrypture , and some of them wyth many great miracles confoundynge the false wonders of Antecriste / as the miracles that Moyses wrought confounded the meruayles that were wrought by the wychecrafte of the Egypciane iuglers . And he shall not sende suche fonde felowes as wolde be so shamelesse wythout any miracle shewed , to bydde all the world byleue them vppon theyr bare word , in the vnderstandyng of holy scrypture , agaynste all holy sayntes and connynge doctours of .xv. hundred yere passed / and bere men in hande that all is open and playne , and proue yt by nothynge ellys but by that there is no place of holy scripture so hard , but that them selfe can expowne yt in suche wyse that yt shall serue them shamefull for iestynge and raylynge agaynst god and all good men , agaynste all good workes , agaynst all relygyon , fastynge , prayour , deuocyon , sayntes , ceremonyes , and sacramentes / & to sette forth vyce in boldenesse of fayth , and to prayse lechery betwene freres and nonnes , and call yt matrymony , and thus make mokkes of holy scrypture solemnely , with such open shamelesse abomynable blasphemy , that yf the zele of god were amonge men that shold be , such raylyng rybaldes that so mokke wyth holy scrypture , shold at euery suche exposycyon haue an hote iren thruste thorow theyr blasphemouse tonges .

Such false prophetes shall god as I saye sende none of his erand . But Tyndale can not proue yt trew that he sayth , that all thinge ys yet so fully fynyshed , but that the tyme may come when god maye yet shew thynges whereof we yet nothyng thynke , and yet peraduenture wryten of in the scrypture / and may yf he lyste do and shew also mo thynges yet , wherof nothynge is wryten for any worde that is wryten to the contrarye . And that bysy●e Crystes owne apperynge at the dome , there yet resteth some rekenynges to come / well & playnely appereth by scrypture both concernynge Tyndales great Mayster Antecryste , though Tyndale & Luther lyste lewdely to rayle wyth those holy places of scrypture / and also concernynge Ennoke and Hely . And therfore where Tyndale saythe ,

Tyndale .

Bycause all is done saue the dome , and bycause god wyll not stere vppe euery daye a new prophete with a new myracle , to conferme new doctrine or to call agayne the olde that was forgoten : therfore were all thynges necessary to saluacyon comprehended in scripture euen to endure .

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Lo now haue we herd hym say yt / & now lakke we no more but euen to here hym proue yt . For when Tyndale proueth not that the thynge is so done in dede / but layeth vs onely the causes for whyche he sayth god caused yt to be done : in this doth he nothynge ellis but tell vs what god shold haue done yf he hadde taken hym to counsayle .

Tyndale proueth not that god hath shewed hym that all is done saue onely the day of dome / whyche he muste proue or ellys we wyll denye yt hym . Nor he proueth not that god hath shewed hym that he wolde not sterre vp yf nede were euery daye a new prophete , and that wyth new miracles to , rather then bynde hym selfe that he sholde neuer teche any thynge more , or haue hys olde doctryne forgoten eyther . whyche thynge he must proue , or els wyll we denye it hym / syth god hath taken more labour and greater payne for his chyrche then that . For he hath shedde hys blood for it , and myghte do all that wyth the lest worde of hys mouth .

And we saye also that god hath dayly stered vp & dayly doth sterre vp new prophetes in sundry partes of hys catholyke chyrche , holy doctours , and preachers , and faythfull men● and good lyuers / for whom bothe quycke and dede he doth shewe myracles in hys catholyke chyrche , and therby approueth the fayth and workes that they lyued and dyed in , as he sterred vp prophetes amonge the iewes in sundry ages for all the myracles done by Moyses / and doeth not so for no chyrche of heretykes .

Nor he proueth not that the poyntes of fayth muste nedys haue fallen awaye , but yf they had ben wryten . whych thyng he must proue vs / for ellys wyll we boldely denye it , and go nere to proue the contrary . For we se that the chyrche hath kepte dyuerse thynges wythout scrypture thys .xiii. C. yere , and as it is thought .ii. C. yere afore / and is yet as lykely to kepe it as many mo , and twyse as many mo yf the worlde laste so longe .

Now haue they be kepte so longe eyther by man , or by the deuyll , or ellys by god . And yf Tindale say that eyther man or deuyll haue kepte them all thys whyle : we maye be bold to tell hym that then was god as able to kepe them , as was any of those both / and neded no more scrypture therto , then neded eyther man or deuyll .

Tyndale proueth vs not neyther that when the thynges were wryten they were therby sure as he sayth to endure for euer . For he proueth not by scrypture that the scrypture shall endure for euer . For though the scrypture saye that the worde of god shall laste for euer , and that there shall not therof the leste letter be loste : yet is that ment of the sonne of god and of the mater , & of the worde vnwryten , and not of the wordes wryten in scrypture / excepte none of saynt Poules epystles be loste , or that suche as be lost was no scrypture , or that in those pystles were no letters .

Nor Tyndale hath not proued that the scrypture is so clerely wryten , but that god nedeth as well to sterre vp prophetes with miracles for the declaracion of the trouth therof , whyle the false exposytours be so contencyouse / as he shold haue neded for the teachynge , kepynge , and confyrmacyon of the poyntes of fayth vnwryten . And as I byfore sayde euen so he doth . And thus ye se that these wordes are to Tyndale very lytle worth . But then sayeth he farther .

Tyndale .

By the scrypture the counsayles generall , and not by open myracle , haue concluded suche thynges as were in them determined / as storyes make mencyon .

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Lette Tyndale brynge forth one story that sayeth as he sayth , and then ●ette hym tell vs the tale agayne . I make my selfe very sure , that he shall fynde no story that shall say that the generall counsayles in theyr conclusyons , regarded no miracles but onely scrypture . For he shall fynd in the storyes that the good holy fathers that were in dyuerse of the generall counsayles ( of whom there be many that all Cristen people honour and worshyppe for sayntes ) had many thynges to moue them to determyne and conclude agaynste heretykes / of whych thynges the scrypture was one and was not all .

For when the Arrianes and the catholykes were in debate vppon the vnderstandynge of the scryptures ( as the catholyques be wyth these heretykes now ) the catholyques dyd not onely se then that the heretykes wrested & mysse constrewed the scrypture ( as we se that these heretyques myche more mysse wreste yt now ) but they saw also that the comen fayth of the catholyke chyrche , was receyued & byleued byfore that heresye bygon / and beynge very sure by the promise of god , that yf that fayth hadde ben false the spirite that god sent vnto his chyrch , wold neuer haue sufferd the catholike chyrch , the corps of Crysten people , the mystycall bodye of Cryste , of fall into that bylyefe / they were thereby wyth that fayt● wryten by the fynger of god in theyr crysten hartes , very sure that the Arrianes were heretyques / and so sholde they haue ben though neuer word of scrypture hadde ben wryten / and sholde haue concluded agaynste the Arrianes in lyke wyse as they dyd .

They saw also that god dyd miracles in hys catholyque chyrche , and sufferd none amonge the Arrianes / sauynge in the takynge of vengeaunce vppon them to theyr payne and shame , as when Arri●s guttes fell out of his bely into the draught / ( as we dayly se that he doth , and euer shall se that he shall do in hys catholyke chyrche / and suffreth none to be done amonge all the scoulkes of heretykes , nor neuer shall suffer tyll the dome nere approche , but onely in detectynge theyr wykkednesse and bryngynge them to the fyre / as our lady by miracle brought Berquyne of late at Parise ) thys thynge vndowtedly not a lytle confermed the fayth , & made the chyrche boldely conclude agaynste the Arrians . And this thynges appereth well in storyes very old and autentyque . And Tyndale shall I am sure neuer brynge vs forth his stories , saynge that the generall counsayles hadde no regarde to miracles . And yf he wyll saye that the storyes tell that there was none open miracles done at the generall counsayles . yet I wene shall he fynde none such storyes neyther . And yf he wyll say that the storyes do not tell of any open miracles done at the generall coōsayles / them shall he tell vs a tale to lytle purpo●e . For surely so many as were shewed bysyde , yt was a thynge that neded not . But then goeth he farther and sayth .

Tyndale .

And by the same scryptures we knowe whyche counsayles were trewe and whyche false .

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Thys is a pratye poynt lo. For now may ye se for what cause he sayth that the generall counsayles made theyr determynacyons by scrypture and not by miracle / bycause he wolde haue yt seme that there were nothynge of goddes spiryte wurkynge wyth the generall counsales , but onely the wytte and affeccyons of men / so that he wolde as appereth playnely by this worde , haue them serue all of nought , but euery heretyque lefte at lybertye to saye nay to them all .

For he sayth that by the scrypture we knowe whyche of those counsayles were trewe and whyche false . But where he sayth we knowe : I wolde wytte of hym whyche we he meaneth / whyche of his hundred new sectes he calleth hys we . For they agre so euyll to gether , that the thyng whych the tone sayth that by the scripture he knoweth for trew , the tother sayth that by the scrypture he knoweth for false .

Tyndales mayster Mar●en Luther and all the sectes in Almayne , call for a generall counsayle . Now wolde I wyt to what purpose , yf all that were concluded therin sholde be neuer the surer / but that euery frowarde fole maye as well after as he myghte before , say that he knoweth by scrypture that the counsayle was false , and all that was determyned therin was nought . Thus myghte an Arryan an erraunt heretyke saye now , that he knoweth by scrypture that all was false that was determyned in the counsayles agaynste the Arrians of olde . Saynt Poule wyll that when one speketh / the remenaunte that is the hole congregacyon shall iudge . As yet at thys daye yf a preacher preache heresye / god hath by the fayth wryten in crysten mennys hartes , made the people able to knowe hym for nought / excepte it be a false preacher wyth a false company , wyllyngly drawen togyther , and fallen from the chyrche / whyche false preacher and his companye is euer able to be iudged by the hole chyrch remaynyng styll in the formare fayth . And now wyll father Tyndale that euery obstynate heretyke , euery pratelynge fole , euery smaterer in scrypture / shall be iudge ouer all the generall counsayles , and ouer all the hole corps of crystendome , to tell them all that hym selfe vnderstandeth the scrypture better then they all . Is not this we●e ye a godly wyse way ? Then goeth he ferther yet and sayth .

Tyndale .

And by the same scrypture shall we yf any new questyon aryse , determyne it also . For Abraam answered the ryche man : They haue Moyses and the prophetes , let them here them / and sayd not , they haue the scrybes and the pharysees , whom they sholde here preachynge out of the sete of theyr owne doctryne without scrypture .

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I had lytell went that Tyndale wolde haue brought in this poynt of Abraam , Lazarus , and the ryche gloton in hell . For Tyndale seeth well inough that though that same Lazer was not raysed by Abraam , and sent vnto those folke at hys requeste : yet was another Lazare raysed afterward by Cryste , & sent amonge men agayne at good folkes request / where though he came for the glory of god and for the shew of the godhed of his onely son / yet is it no dowte but though hys wordes be not wryten , he dyd in that poynte also mych good vnto menne of the meane sorte / though some suche as were obdurate in malice , as were some pharisees , or drounde in the credens of theyr false secte as were some saduceyes , byleued no more hym then Moyses / but in that poynt mysconstred the tone and mokked or hated the tother .

And Tindale seeth also full well , that those wordes of Abraam nothynge touche the new testament , nor nothynge that this question hangeth vppon . For those wordes were spoken by Abraam peraduenture longe byfore Crystes commynge , & and at the leste byfore any worde of the new testament wryten . And therfore though they myghte be drawen to touche the tradycyons whyche the false pharasees gaue vnto the Iewes : yet could they not be drawen to touch the tradycyons whych the trew spiryte of god by Cristes promyse , hath geuen vnto hys chyrche . And that all those be wryten / Tyndall seeth full well those wordes of Abraam , proue nothing at all . And therfore yt is to me more then meruayle , that he ys not ashamed to lay those wordes for this purpose .

For where he sayeth that euery new questyon that maye aryse , we shall determyne by scripture : ye se your selfe very well he speketh of an vngracyouse purpose / wyllynge to bryng in his poysened heresyes vnder that ptexte , syth that he knoweth that the scrypture proueth not the perpetuall virgynyte of our lady , whyche he wolde haue no man bounden to byleue / and also concernynge the sacrament hym self sayth is but brede , and that there ought none honour to be done thereto / and falsely defendeth the tone by the wordes of ●uyll constrewed scrypture , and the tother bycause yt ys no● commaunded in scrypture .

And yet se ye farther that he speketh as though he herde not his owne voyce . For he sayd afore that by the scrypture we iudge the counsayles . And then how can any thynge be determyned by scrypture / when of the ryght vnderstandynge therof there can neuer any determinate ende be made , though all Cristendome sholde come to gether and agre theron , but that euery folyshe heretyque may saye that all they vnderstode yt wronge , and hym selfe onely ryght . Thys is a substancyall reason of Tyndale be ye sure . But bycause he wyll that wyth scripture the generall counsayles must be iudged : what scrypture alledged the apostles for theyr determynacyon in the .xv. chapyter of the actes , where they in theyr counsayle sayde , & by theyr pystle wrote , the holy goost & we haue sene yt good , to put no more burden vppon you , then these necessary thynges / that is wyt that you abstayne from thynges offred to idolys , and from blood , & all thynge that ys strangled , and from fornycacyon / from whyche thynges yf ye kepe your selfes ye shall do well .

what scripture layed they for thys generall counsayle of theyrs . For though there were scripture in the old testament , that forbode these thynges and other to : yet was there no scrypture wherby they concluded those thynges to be kepte and obserued partely for euer , partely for a tyme , rather then the other commaundementes of the law . was not the authoryte thereof by the reason of Crystes worde : He that hereth you hereth me / whych worde hadde as great strength byfore yt was wryten , as euer yt hadde synnes .

Now this same authoryte hath Crystes chyrche assembled in the generall counlayles / and the same spiryte enspyreth them , and the same wordes of Crist byndeth his flokke to obay them that bounde them to obay his apostles .

Tyndale .

Nay sayth Tyndale , not so . when M. More alledged , he that hereth you hereth me / and also this , If any man here not the chyrh ta●e hym for an he then / concludynge that we muste byleue what so euer is shauen in all that he affyrmeth wythout scrypture or myracle : I wolde fayne witte in what fygure that syllogysme is made .

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I wold fayne with of Tyndale in what place of my boke he fyndeth that I make that conclusyon / wyth whyche yt pleaseth hym to bylye me to swete his owne answere wyth . For I neuer concluded nor sayde that we were bounden to byleue all that is shauen in all that euer he sayth . But I then sayd and yet I say , that these wordes of our sauiour Criste , who so hereth you hereth me / were no more proper commaundement to bynde any man to byleue the apostles , then to byleue the whole catholyque chyrche and generall counsayls , that represent that whole body of the catholique chirch / and that they were not spoken to the apostles onely , no more then the holy goost was promysed by Cryste to be sent vnto the apostles onely . And Criste no more promysed to send the holy goost vnto th apostles onely / then he promysed to be with the apostles onely , all the days vnto the ende of the worlde .

Now these wordes of Criste , if any man here not the chirch , take hym for an hethen : euery man well wotech that thys is manifestly spoken not of the apostles onely for theyr tyme , but of the chirch as longe as the world shall laste . For so long shall the chirch endure , do these heretikes what so euer they can to the contrary . And as yt is trew of euery partyculare chirche and the gouernours therof , as long as yt swarueth not from the whole body of the chirch vnyuersall : so is it mych more properly ment of the whole vnyuersale chirche yt self / and of the counsayles generall representynge that hole chyrche , wherof euery pertyculer chyrche is but a member .

And therfore where as Tyndale sayth he wolde fayne fynde in what fygure the syllogysme is made , whyche he sayth I conclude : he muste go lyghte a candle and seke vp that hym selfe / for it is hys owne syllogysme and not myne , for hym selfe maketh that conclusyon and not I.

But my syllogisme is thys . Euery crysten man refusyng to here , byleue , and obaye , the chyrche / is to be taken as an heretyke and an hethen . But so it is that Tyndale beynge a crysten man , and takynge vppon hym in the vnderstandyng of s●rypture , to controll and condempne the chyrche / refuseth to here , byleue , and obaye the chyrche : ergo Tyndale is to be taken as an hethen man and an heretyke .

Thys syllogysme is myne . And thys syllogysme yf Tyndale wolde fayne wyt in what fygure it is made : he shall fynde it in the fyrst fygure , & the thyrd mode / sauyng that the mynor caryeth his profe with hym , whych wold ellys in the same fygure and the same mode haue made another syllogysme .

Now knytteth he vp all thys gere wyth another syllogysme of hys owne makynge . And in what fygure he maketh that , lette hym tell that can / for surely that can I not . These are hys wordes .

Tyndale .

Crystes dyscyples taughte Crystes doctryne , consermyng it with myracles / that it myghte be knowen for goddes and not the yrs. And euyn so muste the chyrche that I wyll byleue / shew a myracle , or brynge autentyke scrypture that is come from the apostles that confyr●●d it with myracles .

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Now maye I be bolde to make the conclusyon of hys argument for hym . For syth he goeth aboute in hys boke to teche not hym selfe but other that shall reade hys boke : hys conclusyon can be nother , but that no man sholde byleue any chyrche wythout myracle or autentyke scrypture . wherof the cause is bycause he wyll not otherwyse byleue any . Let hym put that in fygure when he can , and set there to the cause that moueth hym therto , to byleue no chyrch wythout scrypture or myracle / and yet wyll all togyther wyth .xvi. syllogysmes brynge hym shorte home .

For when he sayth that Crystes dyscyples taught his doctryne , confyrmynge it wyth miracles / and so must the chirch that he wyll byleue , or ellys brynge autentyque scrypture● I saye that he muste proue the thynge that he so often sayth , & neuer proueth , nor neuer can / that is that the apostles proued euery poynt by a specyall miracle . whych poynt I haue reproued byfore / and yet I aske hym now agayne what miracle wrought the apostles for euery poynte of theyre doctryne in theyr letter , that I spake of mencyoned in the .xv. chapiter of the Actes / or where is yt wryten that they wrought any one for them all ? I saye also that the catholyque chirch bryngeth miracles for theyr doctryne as the apostles dyd for theyres / in that that god ceaceth no yere to worke miracles in his catholyque chyrche many and wonderfull , bothe for hys holy men quykke and dede , and for the doctryne that these heretykes unpugne / as images , relyques , & pylgrymages , and the blessed sacrament of the auter . And these so many & in so many places / that these heretykes them self can not denye yt , but are shamefully dreuen to saye lyke the Iewes , that yt is the deuyll that doth them .

I say therfore farther the Tyndale doth but mokke & trifle / when he sayeth he wyll byleue no chirch without miracle or autentike scripture . For he refuseth to byleue the chirch though it bryng both twayne . For yf we bryng autentyque scripture : he wyll not let to say that it is not autentique , as he playeth by the Machabees , & his master be saynt I amys pystle . If he denye not , then wyll he saye that the chirche vnderstandeth yt wronge / so that the chyrch hath nede to brynge myracles , to proue hym that the scrypture is the scrypture / and that they all to gether vnderstande yt better then he alone , as well as that the chyrch is the chirch . And yet when the catholyque chirch bryngeth miracles wrought by god in yt , & for yt , and the plentuously / & no chirche any one but yt : then sayth Tyndale that they be all wrought by the deuyll . And thus ye may se when he hath all sayde / he neyther regardeth miracle nor scripture neyther , but mokketh both twayne .

Now haue ye herd all that I fynde Tyndale answere , agaynst suche thynges as I layed byfore in my dialoge / to proue that all thynge necessary is not wryten in scrypture . And then what profe he can make for hys owne parte , to pue that all is wryten , ye haue herd all redy / wherin how lytle pyth there is , euery chylde maye perceyue .

And then may ye surely reken , that syth thys is hys laste boke , and the place in whyche he maketh a specyall tytle for the mater : he bryngeth in all the beste that he can fynde . And yf he fynde any thynge ellyswhere wryten by his mayster , or hym selfe , or any other of hys felowes for that purpose , whych he leueth out here : ye may be faste and sure he seeth well● he sholde haue but shame to brynge yt in . As the wordes of Criste : Ins●●●●te scriptur●● , quoniam i●s● testimonium ●●hibēt de me . Loke you in that scriptures for they bere witnesse of me . which thyng no man denyeth / but we deny them that nothyng witnesseth Cryste ellys but the scrypture alone . For our sauyour hym selfe whyche sayde those wordes , sayde that saynte Iohn also bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture / & that hys father bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture / and that hys owne workes bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture / and that the holy goost at hys commynge bare wytnesse of hym bysyde the scrypture / and hys apostles ( as hym selfe sayd they shold / bare wytnesse of hym besyde the scrypture . And now that all euer they all witnessed of Cristes wyll to be necessaryly byleued or d●ne , is synnys those wordes of Cryste spoken by his apostles wryten in the scripture : this seeth Tyndale well that he must proue vs by scripture / and not bynde vs onely to the scripture by those wordes of Criste : Serche you that scrypture / whyche were spoken of Cryste byfore all the new scrypture , and sholde serue to strayne vs to proue all thynge by the olde scrypture , & to byleue nothyng farther then we fynde writen in the olde testament . And therfore Tyndale hadde yet some witte when he lefte those wordes oute .

And lyke wyse he saw that yt hadde not ben to purpose to brynge in those wordes , whyche some of that secte bryng forth full solemnely , that ys to wyt the wordes of saynt Iohn in the Apocalyps , where he sayth : If any man any thynge sette to these thynges / god shall putte vppon hym the plages wryten in thys boke . And also yf any man any thyn ● my nyshe of the wordes of the bokes of thys prophecye / god shall take from hym hys parte of the boke of lyfe , and of the holy cytye , and of those thynges that are wryten in this boke .

By whyche wordes he meaneth not that no man shall neuer after be so hardy to wryte any prophecye , yf euer it please god any other thynge to reucle . And mych lesse he meaneth to put god to sylence , that he shall neuer any other thynge reuele yf hym lyste / nor sayth not that god hath shewed hym that he neuer wyll . But he gyueth a charge th●t men vse dylygence and treuth in the wrytynge out of hys owne . And mych lyke charge all be it not of lyke authoryte / haue other wryters gyuen for theyr owne bookes as it is to se in the ende of the cronycle of Eusebius translated I trowe by saynt Hierom / and in saynte Ireneus workes the same charge gyuen in lykewyse , wyth mych lyke adiuracyon ioyned there vnto .

And therfore as solempnely as some of hys bretherne brynge forth these wordes of saynt Iohn : Tyndale saw yet that they wolde not serue , and therfore he lefte them out .

Now laye some folke for thys purpose , the wordes of Moyses in the .xii. of the deuteronomy , where he sayth● The thynge that I commaunde the , that thynge onely shalte thou do to god / and thou shalte neyther any thyng adde nor mynysshe . whych wordes be yet in thys mater lesse to the purpose , then the wordes byfore rehersed of the apocalyps . For who so loke in the place , and rede ouer the chapyter : he shall se that Moyses sayed those wordes onely for fere that he had / leste syth he hadde on goddes behalfe commaunded them some certeyne sacryfyces vnt● god , the people prone to idolatrye , wolde adde of theyr owne myndes , eyther some sacryfyce vnto idols / or vnto god some kynde of suche abomynable sacryfyce , as the gentyls offered vnto theyr idoles . And for fere therof / he sayed vnto them : Thou shalte do vnto god that thynge onely that I commaunde the. And thou shalte neyther any thynge adde nor mynysshe . But he tolde the cause before & sayed : when the lorde thy god shall haue destroyed before thy face the gentyls , vppon whom thou shalte entre to take them in thy possessyon / and whan thou shalte haue them in thy possessyon , and shalte dwelle in the lande that belonged vnto them : beware that thou folow not them , after that they shal be bythy comyng in , ouerturned / beware I saye that thou seke not after theyr ceremonyes and saye : As these peple were wont to wourshyp theyr goddes / euyn so wyll I wourshyppe ●o . Thou shalte not do lykewyse to the lorde thy god . For they haue done vnto theyr goddes all the abomynacyons that our lorde hateth / offerynge theyr owne sonnes and doughters , and burnynge them vp in fyre . And then setteth Moyses there vnto the wordes before rehersed , wyllynge them that they shall neyther lene vndone any of those ceremonyes and sacryfyces that he had commaunded , nor adde any newe kynde of theyr 〈◊〉 mynde / leste they myghte happe to fall to those kyndes of sacrifyce of the paynyms , that were abomynable afore the face of god .

Now what serue these wordes of Moyses to our psent purpose . For fyrste yf Moyses had not ment as I say , & as the circumstaunce of the terte sheweth / but hadde vtterly ment to commaunde them that they sholde nothynge adde at all in no maner thynge vnto those thynges that he commaunded them hym selfe as the wordes sowne : then hadde he forboden theym to byleue or obaye any prophete that euer sholde come after hym / excepte onely the prophete of whom he prophecyed and bad they sholde here hym . And yet myght they thynke that prophete restrayned by those wordes , in suche thynges as sholde perteyne to the seruyce of god .

Also yf that Moyses had not ment as I say , but pcysely forboden them to adde any thyng at all vnto his instytucyons : they myghte neuer haue added any new feste of holy dayes vnto those that god hadde by Moyses appoynted them all redy . And then how myghte the feste called festum encc●niorū haue ben instytuted afterwarde , whych was longe after Moyses dayes instytuted and very sol●mnly obserued / and god ther with so well content , that our sauyour honoured it with his owne blessed presence hym selfe .

But now suppose that Moyses hadde hym selfe ment as strayghtly as theyr vnreasonable construccyon wold strayn hys wordes to : what wolde all that serue vnto theyr purpose in our mater . May crysten men do nothynge but that that Moyses bad / bycause the iewes myghte do nothynge but that that Moyses bad ? where were then bycome the sacrament of baptysme , and the sacramē● of the auter ? ye say they , but thys proueth that the chyrche sholde adde nothyng of theyr owne mynde vnto goddes worde / for suche a note in the byble some haue set solemnely in the margent vppon those wordes . But I dare be bolde to tell theym agayne , that they may better scrape that note out agayne / then vse it vnto this purpose . For fyrst those wordes proueth no such thynge at all , but yf Moyses had ment as straytely as they strayne hym / in whyche I haue proued that they take hym wronge .

Secundely I say that yf Moyses hadde ment as precysely as they mysse take hym : yet hadde yt touched but the iewes / and vs crysten men nothynge at all .

Thyrdely I say that in the thynges whyche Tyndale reproueth the sacramentes of the chirche / the chirche hath added nothynge vnto the worde of god . For we say that they be the worde of god well wryten in holy scrypture as hath ben playnely proued them / and that hym self well knoweth , but that he lysteth to play hys parte and saye nay styll , be the profe neuer so clere .

Fourthly we say that any such thynge as the chirche vseth or byleueth as necessary , though yt be not wryten : yet adde they therby nothynge vnto goddes wordes . For we say that yt is goddes worde vnwriten , and of as great authoryte as ys his worde wryten / as the thynges that partely were delyuered to the chirch by the apostles , and partely taught vnto the chyrche by that holy spiryte of god , that was by Crystes promyse sente vnto the chyrche to be wyth yt for euer● to teache yt and lede yt into euery trouth .

Fynally for conclusyon to proue you the foly of that allegacyon : ye know well all our questyon is no more but whyther the apostles lefte euery necessary thynge in wrytynge , as Tyndale affermeth . And now consyder you whither this be a good profe or not / though Moyses wordes were taken as strayght as these men mysse take them . were not this wene ye well argued . Moyses forbode the iewys to adde or mynyshe to or from any thynge that he commaunded : ergo the apostles haue lefte no necessary thynge vnwryten .

Bysyde that this argument is very folysh in yt selfe : yet haue I byfore at large opened you the lakkes therof , where I answered Tyndale concernynge hys hygh reason of the apostles cheryte , compellynge them to leue nothynge vnwryten . And bysydes that one playne dyfference ys there , that Moyses was commaunded to wryte , and the apostles were not commaunded at all / though god alowed , assysted , and aspired them hys grace therin , as he dothe many good men in many good wurkes besyde any commaundement .

And Moyses also commaunded to wryte as he was / was not commaunded yet to putte all to gether in wry●ynge , that the people sholde be bounden to do or byleue , by any texte the Tyndale hath shewed vs yet , or euer shall shew I suppose .

How be it as for this allegacyon , though some other haue thought yt gay : Tyndale yet perceyued it for such as he saw well wolde not serue hym / and therfore he lefte it out .

yet are there some , & amonge them frere Barons / that layeth for the purpose the wordes of our sauyour wryten in the .xxiii. of Mathew , where he sayth , Uppon the cheyre of Moyses , are now set the scrybes and the pharyseys . All thynges that euer they say vnto you obserue them and do them / but the thynges that they do , do not you . For they bynde vnportable burdayns and lay them vppon other mennes shoulders , and wyll not so mych as wyth a fynger of theyr owne , ones styrre them . By these wordes wolde frere Barons that there sholde nothynge be taught but onely scrypture . And ouer that he wolde by these wordes , that a man myghte breke all the lawes that the hole chyrche maketh besyde the expresse preceptes of god conteyned in the scrypture wythout any scruple of conscyence / so that he do it secretely where there were no weke conscyence of feble faythed folke offended . where as vndowted those wordes neyther proue hys purpose in the fyrst , and proue clene agaynst hys purpose in the seconde . For begynnynge wyth the seconde / those wordes playnely declare that bycause our sauyour bothe then intended to shewe , and often before had shewed , that the scrybes & pharyseys were nought : yet lest the people myghte happe to thynke that he wolde therfore they shold be set at nought and not obayed / he gaue them not warnynge onely but also playne commaundement , that syth they were in the authoryte and occupyed the place of Moyses that gaue the law , & were the rulers and gouernours of the people , they sholde obay them and fulfyll that they commaunded them . And leste the people sholde take hym as frere Barons doth / and wene bycause he spake of Moyses chayre , that therfore they sholde obaye hym in nothyng ellys but as far as they shold rede in Moyses bokes / and vppon euery thynge that they sholde be boden , sholde saye shew me that wryten in Moyses bokes : Cryste therfore commaunded them that they sholde obserue and fulfyll all theyr commaundementes . Not meanynge by that generaltye that they sholde obaye any commaundement that by god were forbe●en , nor to set goddes law asyde for mennys tradycyons as hym selfe sayed in the xv . of Mathew : but forbedynge them to refuse to fulfyll the commaundement of theyr rulers , wherof there were no mencyon made in scrypture , where the commaundement tended to vertue , good maners , or goddes honour . Now the wordes of saynt Austayn whyche frere Barons bryngeth in , do nothynge proue the poynt that Barons wolde proue by them . For he wolde haue it seme that saynt Austayne taketh those wordes of Crystes as hym selfe doeth . But saynt Austayne there by the allegorye of the chayre of Moyses occupyed by the scrybes and pharaseys : expowneth those wordes of a preacher that is not the very trew shepeherd that in his preachyng seketh nothynge but the profyte of the shepe and the glory of Cryste / but that is a mercennary preacher and an hyred , whyche seketh hys owne temporall aduauntage and commodyte . Of whom saynte Austayne gyueth warnynge that yet euen suche preachers nought as they be / yet for the whyle that they be suffred to preache , in all that they saye well and accordynge to the law of god , we sholde here them & alowe them therin , and lerne to lyue therafter . But on the tother syde , yf they wolde when they haue begon wyth good thynges for a countenaunce to gete them in credence / then 〈◊〉 of suche thynges and preache of that they seke for that is to wyt fantasyes of theyr owne inuencyon , and for them selfe and theyr owne commodyte : therin be they not to be herd or byleued . And thys is the mynde of saynte Austayne as euery man that wyll consyder hys wordes in the place where they be wryten , the .xlvi. tretyce vppon saynt Iohn , shall very playnely perceyue . And therby shall he that there redeth them as playnely perceyue , that those wordes of saynt Austayne brought forth by Barns , do nothynge proue Barns purpose / that is to wyt , that those wordes of Cryste do dyscharge euery mannes conscyence of obedyence vnto any preceptes , lawes , or tradycyons of men , other then be wryten in scrypture .

For the thynge that saynt Austayne there sayth : dyuers holy men entreatyng the same wordes in the lyke allegorye of doctryne and preachynge , do saye and confyrme in ●ykewyse / and neuer wyse man wolde saye otherwyse . But the thynge that Barns sayth / neuer was there yet eyther good man or wyse man that wolde agree . For those wordes of Cryste sauynge by waye of the allegorye , seme not so properly to pertayne to techynge of the scrybes and pharaseys , as to theyr commaundementes and byddynges / as well appereth by the wordes folowynge , where he byddeth that they shold obserue and do all the thynges that they saye to them . And that he sholde meane not onely the preceptes wryten in the law , but also theyr other commaundementes besyde , suche as were not superstycyouse or vnlawfull to be kepte : is clerely declared by the wordes of Cryste folowynge , where he sayeth in thys wyse , For they bynde importable burdayns and laye them on other folkes shoulders , but them self wyll not put a f●nger of theyr owne therto . As though he wolde saye Syth they syt vppon Moyses chayre , and occupye hys place and be your gouernours : do ye all that they commaunde you all though the burdayns that they bynde and laye on your shoulder be so great & heuy , that they seme in a maner unportable / but do not as they do . For they wyll them selfe leue them all vndone , and not set onys a fynger to the doyng of them . But I warne you do not you so .

I know ryght well that those wordes maye be well expowned on the tother fashyon afore remembred , vnderstandyng in the allegory by the chayre of Moyses , the doctryne & law of Moyses . And then may those greuouse importable burdayns be called the burdens of the olde lawe / wyth whyche saynt Peter and the apostles were not contente , that some other wolde lade the crysten people commynge vnto Criste / saynge that neyther them selfe nor theyr fathers coulde bere t●em . Thus I know well men may expowne those wordes , and good men● holy men , and connynge men so haue done / and other in lykewise after the maner that I now do , & both twayne haue therein done very well . For one texte maye be dyuersely in dyuerse senses expowned● though Luther and Tyndale wyll haue now but one , tyll a nother may better make for theyr owne purpose / for then they wyll not let to make fyftene . But though those wordes may be so expowned : yet as I sayde yt appereth well , that the very proper sense is of theyr owne tradycyons bysyde Moyses lawe / in that Cryste sayde that the scrybes and pharasyes dyd bynde greuouse burdayns and importable , and lay them on other mennys shoulders . For euery man well woteth that neyther the scrybes nor the pharysees , dyd bynde and lay on mennys shou●ders the burdens of the lawe , but our lorde hym selfe . And whyche at that tyme whyle he wolde yet haue them kept , he wolde not haue dyspraysed , wyth callyng them greuous and importable / though the apostles dyd afterwarde when tyme cam to caste them of .

And therfore as I haue sayde , those wordes of Crystes were properly ment of the tradycyons & commaundementes of the scrybes & pharasees them selfe bysyde the law / whych thinges our sauiour there cōma●̄ded to be kept & obserued , where so euer they were not superstycyouse , nor contraryed not the lawes and commaundementes of god / but were tendynge to his honour , or to vertue , or to the comen weale● for the place and offyce that the scrybes and pharysees kepte , though them selfe were nought . And theyr good tradycyons dyd neuer Cryste dysprayse / though he somtyme dyspensed wyth his dyscyples concernynge them and the law to .

Now there is no man I thynke so madde● when he dowteth not but the seruauntes in a mannys housholde are so bounden to fulfyll and obaye theyr maysters lyefull commaundementes , that yf they wolde refuse at hys byddynge to knele downe and say certayne praoyurs with hym to bed warde all the whole house to gether , tyll he shold shew them some such commaundement in scrypture / they were well worthy to go to the deuyll for theyr proude dysobedyence in the defence of theyr false euangelycall fredome : he that douteth not I saye of thys ( of whyche I thynke no good man douteth ) can not be so madde to thynke that neyther bysshoppe , nor pope , nor whole generall counsayle , nor all crysten people to gether , though they were all assembled vppon a playne , were able so to commaunde so myche as a generall processyon vppon any certayne daye / but that any lewde lyther losell that lyste not to ryse , may lye styll in hys bedde , & say he is not bounden to obay mannys tradycyons , nor nothyng but scrypture except for auoydyng of slaunder / and then there shal be so many at the processyon that he shall not be myssed , & yf he be , some man may say he is syke .

Uppon these wordes concernynge theyr tradycyons , wold I not haue ben so long / sauyng that both frere Barns rially triumpheth wyth them agaynste the lawes of the chyrch , and also that Tyndale in his answere to the .xviii. chapyter of my dyaloge , bryngeth in the same for the lyke entent . which entent how properly they proue bytwene them both , now ye may partely se / and yet farther shall by goddes grace when I shall hereafter god wyllynge , come to touche the place in Tyndales answere to me .

But now that I haue proued that those wordes of Crist make not onely nothynge for they purpose agaynst the lawes of Crystes chirche / but also make playnely for the lawes agaynste theyr purpose : I shall not nede longe to tary you for the tother poynte / that is to wytte , to proue you that those wordes of Cryste nothynge make agaynste our pryncypall purpose . For they nothynge proue that euery necessary thynge is wryten / though we constre Crystes wordes not of the tradycyons , of whyche they be properly spoken in d●de , but of the law of Moyses / and set therunto the wordes of saynte Austayne also , wyth whyche Barns wolde seme so well to furnyshe his mater . For fyrst as for Crystes wordes yf they hadde ben playne & expressely these , what so euer the scrybis and pharysees bydde you do that is wryten in the law of Moyces , I warne you se that you do yt : yet whyle he sayde not farther , & I warne you byleue them not in any thyng ellys / these wordes were no profe that all to gether was writen , wher in the peple shold byleue them no more than that all thyng wher in they sholde byleue them , was wryten in Moyses bokes . whyche yf yt were taken so / then were all that they myghte teache the people writen in Esaie● Hieremie , or Ezechiel , by Cristes worde wyped oute of credens .

Therfore by those wordes expownynge them of the doctryne of Moyses , and not of the tradycyons of the scrybes and pharysees / yet is there nothynge proued that they were not to be byleued in any thynge that they sholde teache bysyde Moyses , nor bysyde all the scrypture neyther . Nor those wordes of Cryste be not contrary , but that there myghte be yet at those dayes trewthes kepte amonge the people by tradycyon from the begynnynge , whyche the scrybes and pharysees bothe myght preache and remember to the people as they myght the scrypture , and be therin byleued . And therfore our sauyour sayd not , byleue them in nothing but the bokes of Moyses or other bokes of scrypture / but he sayd , do not as they do / not forbedinge them to byleue them in many other thynges , but forbedyng them to folow them in theyr vyces .

Now if Cryste had sayd farther to the iewes / all thynges necessarye be wryten , & therfore byleue the scrybes & pharysees no farther then ye fynde wryten in Moyses and in the prophetes : had thys proued that all thynge that crysten me● muste byleue , is wryten in the apostles and the euāgelistes● Now the wordes of saynt Austayne whyche frere Barons addeth therunto / do for this purpose nothyng auaunce the mater . For when saynte Austayne applyeth those wordes of Cryste to a preacher that is not a very trew shepeherde , so kyng onely the weale of the flokke and the pleasure of Criste / but mercennary and an hyred man , that preacheth for luc●● or other wordely affeccyons of hys owne / and then sayeth that in the chayre of Moyses is vnderstande the lernynge of the law of god , and sayth that therfore god dothe teache vs by them , that is to wytte by those mercennary preachers to / and therfore when they teache the law of god , here them and do thereafter / but and if they wyll teache theyr owne doctrine , here yt not , do yt not / for suche men seke that is theyres and not Crystes , that is to wyt theyr owne commodyte and not the pleasure of god : lo sayth Barns these wordes of saynte Austayne be playne agaynst all them that preche any thyng but the law of god onely . And forthwyth well and wyse●y in stede of prechyng , he putteth ensample of statutes makyng / as though yt were both one thynge , one man to preche and all the chirche to make a statute . And bycause ye shold se yet hys playnesse and synceryte therin / he fayneth that the chirch maketh some openly and directly agaynst the worde of god , and to the destruccyon of the fayth / as is that statute sayth he , whereby they haue condemned the new testament and also forbeden certayne men to preache the worde of god , hauynge no cause agaynste them but all onely theyr owne malycyouse suspycyon .

Now of trouth there is no such statute made● nor no such thynge done , neyther concernynge the tone poynte nor the tother . For as for the new testament / yf he meane the testament of Cryste , yt is not condemned nor forboden neyther , no more then was the holy arche , though euery man myght not be so bolde to touche yt . But of trouth , there is a false englyshe translacyon of the newe testament newly forged by Tyndale , so altered & chaunged in maters of great weyght , malycyousely to sette forth agaynste Crystes trew doctryne Tyndales antichrysten heresyes / that yt was not worthy to be called Crystes testament , but eyther Tyndales owne testament , or the testament of hys mayster Antechryste . And therfore that boke is condemned as it is well worthy / and the condemnacyon therof is neyther openly , nor pryuyly , directely , nor indirectely agaynst the worde of god , nor tendeth not to the destruccion of the fayth , but very consonaunt wyth the worde of god , auferte masum ex vobismet ipsis / and greatly tendyng to the mayntenaunce of the fayth .

And concernynge that testament : I haue both in my dialoge and in the secunde boke of thys wurke , well proued this poynte / wherunto when Tyndale weneth to fynde any farther defence , let hym lay yt forth .

There is also no statute made by the chirch , to forbyd any man to preache the worde of god hauyng no cause agaynst hym but theyr owne malycyouse suspycyon . Nor god I dowte not wyll neuer suffer hys chyrche to fall so madde , as to make suche a law . If frere Barns fynde any law made of suche mater● let hym reherse it / and I waraunt you he shall fynde no suche wordes in it . There is in dede a law made , bothe by the chyrche and in thys realme by the parlyament to that no man shall be suffred to preache in any dyocyse agaynste the bysshoppes wyll . And I wene that law be not agaynst goddes law , nor agaynste reason neyther / excepte eyther goddys lawe or good reason sholde suffer that one man sholde medle wyth another mannes charge magry his teeth to whom the charge bylongeth / or ellys shold be suffred to sow shrewd seed of heresyes , scysmes , & sedycyons , among the people fyrst● & then be burned vp after at leysour . Such folke I suppose were better prohybyted bytymes , ere they be suffred longe to go forwarde , to the parell of other mennes soules & theyr owne to . Such haue we had some prohybited here of late / of whyche one was yet so sore set vppon euyll prechyng , that after the prohybycyon & abiuracyon to , yet wold he preche heresyes styll / vntyll at the last god caused hym to be taken , & Tindals bokes with hym to , & both two burned togyder / wyth more profyte vnto his soule than had ben happely to haue lyued lenger & after dyed in his bedde . For in what mynde he sholde then haue dyed our lorde knoweth / where as now we know well he dyed a good crysten man . And when he wyste well his reuocacyon coude not saue his body : yet reuoked he his heresyes and abhorred Tyndals bokes for to saue hys soule .

Now here serue well the wordes of saynte Austayne agaynst Barns , whyche wordes Barns bryngeth for hym . For when we here such a mercennary precher as these heretykes be / for the tyme that we here them , yf they say aught well , and accordynge to the catholyke fayth , as they can not for shame saye all nought at ones : then take it . But when we here them preache theyr owne heresyes for the rewarde of worldely prayse , or delyte of theyr owne syngulare pryde , and so seke theyr owne and not Crystes : then here them not , but putte them to sylence and prohybyte them to preache any more .

Thys allegorye wyll agre wyth the sayd wordes of saynt Austayne & of Crystes wordes to . And yet so mych the better , in that these heretyques maye properly be called not onely mercennaryes , of whom saynt Austayne speketh / but also very scrybes and pharisees , of wurse kynde then were those of whom Criste in that gospel speketh . For these be false scribes / that is to wytte wryters , not wrytyng any trew bokes of scrypture , but false gloses and contrary commentes vppon scrypture , and erronyouse bokes of dyuelyshe heresyes dyuysed of theyre owne frantyque braynes / to the coloure wherof they abuse the scrypture , and when they lyste they also denye the scrypture . These be also the worst kynde of pharysees . For these haue dyuyded them selfe not from the other people by any professyon of a more honest & more vertuous lyuynge / but haue dyuyded them selfe from the catholyque chirche of Cryste by abomynable heresyes , and from all honeste people by the contempte of all good wurkes , and by the bestely professyon of freres & nonnes lyuyng to gether in lechery , & preachyng theyr horedome fo● honeste matrymony .

These be the thynges whyche we sholde not vouchsaufe to here these scrybes and the●e false pharysees preache . For these be the deuyls deuyces and theyr owne . For as for all that is preached consonaunte to the catholyque fayth , ys very goddes law whyther yt be wryten or not . Nor saynt Austayn sayth not , Here them in preachynge onely the scripture / but goddes law he sayth , wherein is comphended all that euer we be bounden to do or byleue . wherof saynt Austayn doth hym selfe confesse , that dyuerse thynges are vnwryten / as for ensample the perpetuall virgynyte of our blessed ladye , whyche who so byleueth not bycause yt is not wryten , saynt Austayne calleth a fals● heretyque in hys boke wryten vnto Quod vult deus . And so doth saynte Hierome to in hys boke agaynste Eluidius . And all such thynges be therfore partes of the plantes whyche the father of heuen planteth by hym selfe , hys apostles , his holy spiryte , and his owne sonne abydynge in hys chirche : whyther they be wryten or not .

And thus ye se good reders , that neyther those wordes of Cryste , nor of saynt Austayne , neyther do proue that the apostles haue lefte all necessarye thynges in wrytynge . And therfore though Barns was so fonde to brynge in that text for this purpose : yet Tyndale perceyued well that yt wold not serue , and therfore lefte yt out .

yet layeth frere Barns a nother texte for thys purpose , the wordes of saynt Poule wryten vnto Timothe the .iii. chapyter of the .ii. pystle . where saynte Poule wryteth vnto hym in thys wyse : Abyde thou in those thynges that thou hast lerned , and that are betaken to the / knowynge of whom thou haste lerned them and that from thyn infancye thou haste knowen holy scrypture , whyche maye instructe the to helth by the fayth that is in Cryste Iesu. All scrypture inspyred of god is profytable to teche , to reproue , to correcte , to teache men in iustyce , that the man of god maye be perfayte instructed to euery good worke .

I haue rehersed you saynt Poules wordes more full than doth frere Barns / bycause ye maye haue some gesse why he lefte the remanaunt out . For he reherseth no more but that the chyrche muste neyther make law nor statute nor nothynge do but onely preache and mynyster the worde of god / and that nothynge addynge nor mynysshynge , but as Poule sayth to Timothe , abyde in those thynges that they haue lerned and that be commytted vnto them .

Now se ye well that saynte Poule speketh nothynge to Timothe agaynst addynge o● any good order or statute in hys chyrche / but byddeth hym abyde faste by those thynges that he hath lerned of hym , and that he hath lerned in scrypture / ioynynge to the scrypture alwaye the ryght fayth of Cryste whyche he had lerned of saynt Poule . And therfore agaynste makynge of any law , thys texte serueth frere Barons a strawe .

Moreouer it is to be consydered that saynte Poule sayth not to Timothe , Abyde in those thynges that I haue wryten , but abyde in those thynges that thou hast lerned eyther in scrypture or ellys otherwyse of ●e wythout scrypture , as he wrote vnto the Thessalonycenses , Obserue ye my preceptes whyche I haue gyuen you , eyther by worde or wrytynge .

And as he wryteth vnto Timothe before in the same pystle , Haue thou the forme and fasshyon of the holesome wordes , whyche thou haste herde of me in fayth & loue in Cryste Iesu. He sayth not the wordes that I haue wryten vnto the , and that thou hast redde of myne / but the wordes that thou hast herd of me .

But yet is there for thys purpose in that texte of saynte Poule that Barns bryngeth forth , another thynge to be consydered / that where as saynt Poule telleth Timothe , that all be it he haue ben lerned in scrypture from hys chyldhed / yet he must ioyne therwyth the artycles of the fayth of Cryst . And that it may well appere that he gyueth Timothe thys warnynge to arme hym wyth agaynst heretyques , whyche wolde labour by some colour of apparent scryptures to destroye the fayth that Timothe had lerned , as these heretykes do now : it is I saye therfore to be noted that saynt Poule gaue Timothe that warnynge● that he sholde stande faste in those thynges that he hadde taught hym / remembrynge of whom he had lerned them , of a trew apostle● and not of such as they were , that wolde tell hym contrary , false heretykes . And so must we agaynste these heretykes that wolde draw vs from the trew fayth that we haue lerned / stande fast and remember of whom we haue lerned it● of Cryste and hys apostles , and contynually from them of hys perpetuall apostle the catholyke chyrche of Cryste , anymated and instructed accordynge to hys promyse wyth hys owne spyryte this xv . C. yeres / and not by suche as thes● be that now bable agaynst it , false heretykes / whose snakysshe and serpentyne generacyons , haue euer more hytherto when they haue crept out as adders and snakes in somer , had theyr heddys troden downe by god and all good men .

Saynt Poule tolde Timothe to / that the scrypture was good and profytable to teache the faythfull folke , and to reproue heretykes yf he ioyned therwyth alwaye the fayth of Cryste / wythout whyche it wolde do hym no seruyce , for all that he had ben lerned therin from hys chyldhed . And in the warnynge gyuen to Timothe saynt Poule hath taught vs also , that yf we haue sure in herte the artycles of Crystes fayth , whyche be surely kepte by Cryste in hys catholyque chyrche : then shall we be able well to vnderstande the scrypture , so mych as shall suffyce and be necessary . And but yf we haue that bylefe / we shall haue no ryght vnderstandyng . But that ryght byleyfe , and therby that vnderstandynge had / the scrypture ( though all thynges be not wryten therin ) wyll yet be profytable and stand vs in good stede , not onely for our instruccyon towarde the perfeccyon of vertuose lyuynge , but also in dysputacyon agaynste heretykes / bothe in the profe of many artycles of the ryght bylyefe , and to proue them clerely that the comen consent of Crystes catholyke chyrche can not in crystes very trew fayth erre and be dampnably deceyued , whyther the thynges byleued be wryten in scrypture or not / and also that hys catholyke chyrche ys this comen knowen chyrche of all crysten nacyons , saue such as be by false heresyes separated there fro . And vn the tother syde , wythout the catholyque fayth of Cristes chirch fastened in our hartes / the scrypture as yt coulde not haue serued Timothe wythout the trew fayth hadde in his harte , so can yt not serue vs neyther to the confusyon of heretykes nor to the spirituall profyte of our selfe .

And thus ye se that frere Barons hath very pore helpe of this texte of saynt Poule / whyche thynge Tyndale well percyued & therfore he lefte yt out . And Barns hym self perceyuynge that the moste parte wolde make so mych agaynst hym / toke in a lytle and lefte the remanaunt out .

yet bryngeth in Barns a nother texte of saynte Poule , where he wryteth vnto the Romayns in the .xv. chapyter : I dare not speke any other thynge then those that god hath wroughte by me . whyche wordes fyrste be so hard as they stande in the place , that the old interpretours stode in great doute what saynte Poule ment by them / so farre forth that by exposycyon of saynte Ambrose , saynte Poule ment that there was nothynge that perteyned to the glory of prechyng the worde of god , but that god had fulfylled yt in hym / as though he wold say that all that was to be taught , god had taught the gentyles by hym . Origene expowneth them in a nother maner / that saynt Poule in those wordes ment , that he wolde not take vnto hym self the prayse of other mennes dedys , but wolde onely speke of suche thynges as god had wrought by hym selfe . Theophylactus aloweth Origenes exposycyon , and yet addeth a thyrde therto , sayenge in the person of saynt Poule : I boste yo● not the thynges that I haue not done / but onely shew you the thynge I haue done my selfe . How be yt that that I haue done / yt is not I that haue done yt , but Cryste hath done yt by me .

I shew you this good reders bycause ye shold somwhat perceyue the maner of these men / whyche vse in many thynges to proue theyr maters by those textes that are of moste dyffycultye , and suche as are leste vnderstanden . And therfore in the mater of the lyberty of mannys wyll , & predestynacyon , and the mater of fayth , and good wurkes : they passe ouer the playne textes of the other euangelystes wyth some slayght glose of theyr owne diuyse / and then for the profe of theyr owne parte they runne to the hard places of the gospell of saynte Iohn , or to the apocalyps , or to the pystles of saynt Poule , in suche places as are almoste as hard as the apocalyps . All whych when they expowne as yt please them / then the call them playne , and say that euery man & woman may vnderstand them easyly / notwythstandyng that saynte Peter beynge longe at scole wyth Cryste , and the chyefe of hys apostles , protesteth openly to all the worlde by wrytynge , that saynte Poules pystles haue thynges hard & dyffycyle . And he sayth farther of suche as Barns is & Tyndale● and such other heretyque theyr felowes : Those hard thynges sayth saynt Peter that are wryten by saynt Poule / men vnlerned and vnstable , do depraue and mysconstre as they do all the remanaunt of the scrypture , vnto theyr owne perdycyon . And saynt Poule sayth hym selfe also● that in the mater of good wurkes , these false heretykes mysse constre hym / and sayeth therfore that theyre dampnacyon ys iuste and ryghtuouse .

And thus as I say these heretyques laye forth for theyre parte hard textes and doutefull , as Barns doth here / which texte in the place where yt standeth , the beste lerned men are in dowte how to constre yt . How be yt let Barns constre yt whych way he lyste , that may haue any hold of the wordes / and it shall neuer serue for his purpose , neyther concernyng any forbedynge of lawes to be made by the chirche , nor to proue that euery thynge necessary to saluacyon is writen in scrypture / but rather playne the contrarye . For euery man well woteth , that euery necessarye thynge is not wryten by saynt Poule , nor he hath not wryten euery thynge that he taught , nor euery thynge is not now had that he dyd write . And therfore this text of saynt Poule brought in by Barns nothynge helpeth his purpose , but rather greatly hyndreth yt / whych thynge Tyndale well perceyued , and therfore he lefte yt oute .

Tyndale saw well also that any thynge that his mayster Marten Luther layde and lashed oute agaynste the kynges hyghnes , concernynge this purpose , or spekynge agaynste the tradycyons of men / serue to no purpose in this mater agaynste the sacramentes , or any poynte of the catholyque fayth , whyche we saye be the tradycyons of god . wherof as Tyndale well knoweth / nothynge that Luther layed , any thynge proue the contrary , nor any thynge touche the purpose , to proue that all the necessarye poyntes of the crysten fayth were by Crystes apostles putte in wrytyng . And therfore Tyndale seynge his mayster Martine Luther in that poynt by Rosseus so shamfully sowsed in the myre byfore : thought he wolde beware of that pudle and come no more nere yt / and therfore lefte out all that his mayster had brought in for the mater .

Then was ther yet one texte remayned , wherof many of them were wonte to bere theym hygh . And that was the saynge of saynt Poule / which text Tindale hath also brought forth ere thys , to proue that we muste byleue nothynge but onely scrypture . And that is where he wryteth to the Galathyes in the furst chapyter : that yf an angell of heuen wold come downe and preache any other gospell then hym selfe had done , accursed were he . Thys texte hath nowe frere Barns brought in a freshe for the same purpose in hys new frantyke boke , and magnyfyeth mych hym selfe there wyth , when Tyndale hath left it of for shame . For Tyndale at last after longe lokyng on it / espyed well that yt wold nothyng serue for hys mater . For he saw well that saynt Poule ment none other , but that an angell were not to be byleued , yf he taught a contrarye gospell / and ment not that none angell were to be byleued , yf god sent hym both to conferme that , and also shew somwhat that god wolde haue done farther .

Tyndale saw also that that texte sayeth not that saynte Poule hath wryten all hys owne gospell , nor that all hys felowes hadde wryten yt amonge them all / whyche he wyste well was the poynte that muste be proued . And therfore as frere Barns folyshely bryngeth yt in / so doth Tyndale wysely leue yt out . And surely as I haue sayde , hys wytte serued hym well in leuynge out all th●se . But hys wyt fayled hym in one thynge , that he hadde not lefte oute also all that euer he hath hym selfe brought in . All whyche as your selfe se well / I haue nowe proued hym as lytle to preue hys purpose , as hym selfe seeth well that all the tother dyd , whyche for that cause he was ashamed to speke of .

Now haue ye herd as farre as I can fynde , all that euer Tyndale eyther hath sayde or can say in this mater / eyther hym selfe or any man ellys for the profe of hys owne parte , or for the dysprofe of ours . And therby se ye well that he neyther hath proued , nor neuer shall he proue whyle he lyueth , neyther hym selfe nor no man ellys , the thyng that he so boldely sayth , that all thynge necessary for saluacyon is wryten in scrypture / nor able is he not , nor no man ellys , nor neuer shall , hereafter be able to auoyde yt / but that god taughte & ys not yet so bounden , but that he may teche what he wyll and when he wyll , wyth scrypture or wythout / and may commaunde yt to be byleued not beyng contrary to that he hath taught all redy , and maye commaunde some thynges to be done though they were contrarye to some thynges that he hadde hym selfe by scrypture commaunded afore .

And I thynke yt not to be dowted but notwythstandynge that Moyses receyued the laws ad ceremonies in writyng : yet receyued he not ( as Tyndale sayth he dyd ) all thyng so fully in wrytynge , but that there remayned in the peoples myndes bysyde the wrytyng dyuerse thynges necessary and of great wayght , that they hadde receyued byfore● & kepte peraduenture from Adams owne dayes / concernynge the commynge of Cryste , and the redempcyon by hym , and the state of soules , both in heuen , hell , purgatory , paradyse , & lymbus patrum .

And yt wyll who so lyste to loke therfore , well be perceyued in them that wrote after Moyses dayes / that the iewes had myche open lyght and knowlege in some such thynges bysyde all that that appereth writen / in the .v. bokis of Moyses whereby yt wyll well appere that Tyndale sayeth not trew , where he sayth that Moyses dyd put all in wrytynge .

ye shall well fynde also , that not wythstandyng all that euer hath ben wryten synnys , eyther by the prophetes , euangelystes , or any other apostle : yet wyll yt neuer appere that all is wryten that was taught by mouth / but that the chirche of Cryste hath had taught vnto them by the spiryte of god , dyuerse treuthes , whyche no good man can doute in , wherof the scrypture nothynge determyneth / and whyche thynges therfore false heretyques brynge in questyon , and lette not to say the contrary , as in the comen knowen ensamples of our ladyes perpetuall virgynyte , of the assumpcyon of her blessed body , whyche god wold ellys haue had founden in erth , & honored as well as the bodyes of any other saynt / of whom hym selfe hath caused by specyall reuelacyon dyuerse to be sought out and founden , ●o be wurshypped here in erth for hys sake , and confermed yt by many manifest miracles , as we fynde in autentyque storyes .

By these tradycyons haue we also the prayeng to saynts , and the knowledge that they pray for vs / all be yt in the boke of Machabe●● yet that thynge well appereth .

By these tradicions haue we the holy lenton faste / which these brotheles so boldely take vppon them to breke , and as lollardes to eate fleshe / and whyche holy faste these folys in theyr wrytynge call the folyshe faste .

By these haue we also the saterdaye chaunged into the sondaye , whyche they care not to turne into frydaye now .

By these haue we the halowyng of chalyces , vestyments , pascall taper , and holy water , wyth dyuerse other thynges .

By these tradycyons of that holy spiryte / hath the chirch also the knowlege how to consecrate , how to say masse , and what thynge to pray for and to desyre therein .

By thys haue we also the knowlege to do reuerence to the images of holy sayntes , and of oure sauyour / and to crepe to hys crosse / and to do dyuyne honour vnto the blessed sacrament of the auter , to whyche yet to saye the trouth neuer tradycyon neded . For syth the scrypture ys playne that yt is Crystes owne precy●use bodye , whyche ys not dede but quykke , wyth that blessed so●le and wyth them the godhed vnseparably ioyned : what frantyque fole coulde doute but yt sholde be wyth dyuyne honour wurshypped , though neyther god nor man bysyde that knowledge , hadde geuen vs warnynge therof .

But yet is Tyndale so farre bysyde hym selfe / that he byleueth not the scrypture of god , nor the word spoken by goddes owne mouth , when he sayde that yt is hys owne body / and is so blasphemouse agaynst god , that he calleth it great synne to do to that blessed bodye of Cryste in the sacrament any honour at all , bycause yt ys not commaunded he sayth in scrypture .

But thus may ye good crysten readers se , to what poynt at laste thys heresye bryngeth these folke . For when they fyrste fall to that poynt , that they regarde not goddes word but yf he geue yt them in wrytynge● wythin a whyle after fall they downe so farre , that they neyther regarde hys worde , nor his wrytynge , nor yet hym selfe neyther .

But nowe is yt a worlde to se what shyfte these folke be fayne to seke . Sometyme they come forth shamlesse , and boldely tell on theyre tale . And yet when they perceyue in the myddes thereof , that all that here theym wonder on them : then they caste on theyr hodes and keuer theyr faces for shame .

For somtyme they say they care but for scrypture alone , and set nought by all those that euer wrote synnys the apostles dayes . Then se they agayn that to abyde by that word were to shamelesse / and then they restrayne it vnto this .viii. hundred yeres laste paste , in whyche they saye all is corrupted . And then they graunte that before , there were good men that taught the trewth / and then they saye that we wyll not byleue them , as though them selfe wolde .

And when we aske them then / whyche of those olde men before .viii. C. yere last past , euer sayed that relygyous men myght runne out and wedde nonnes : to that they say nothynge , but fare as though they herd it not .

But when that my lorde of Rochester in the selfe same mater that we haue now in hande , to proue that dyuers thynges whyche the chyrch vseth and byleueth , and whych were neuer made by any law wryten , and yet obserued thorow the catholyke chyrche / were of suche antyquyte that euery man myghte well perceyue that they came from the very apostles them selfe : h● layed forth the greate clerke & olde auncyent father Origene / wherwyth as I haue shewed you before Tyndale was very angry , and all to rated Origen & called hym starke heretyke .

But yet shall not Tyndale so fere me there wythall / but that to th entent that he shall not blynde you and make you wene that all the olde fathers were in thys mater of hys mynde / but that ye shall well se that the thynges whyche he reproueth and wolde haue you wene were nought worth , bycause he sayth they be not in scrypture , be not thynges deuysed as Tyndale sayth by popys and popysh wythin thys viii . C. yere : I shall as I promysed byfore in the second boke , reherse you bothe the wordes of Origene / and besyde some vndowted holy men synnes , I shall reherse you dyuers other above .viii. C. yere , and aboue .xi. C. yere , and aboue a thousande to , of whom my lorde of Rochester hath gathered dyuerse togyther , and rehersed in the same mater in hys boke agaynst Luther / all whyche saue Origene onely Tyndale dyssembleth , bycause he may not call them her●tykes as he called Origene / for whom I haue in that poynt answered Tyndale in my sayd seconde boke before .

Origene in the fyfte homely vppon the boke of Numeri wryteth in thys wyse : In the obseruaunces of the chyrche , some thynges there are , whyche muste of necessyte be obserued and kept / and ye● the cause why appereth not to euery man . As ( for ensample ) that we knele when we pray / & that of all partes of the heuen , we moste specyally tourne vs towarde the este . I suppose that no man lyghtely knoweth the cause why . Moreouer of the sacrament of th aulter , eyther the maner in the receyuyng , or the guyse and fashyon of the consecracyon / or of the formale wordes and ceremonyes vsed in baptysme , and of the questyons and answeres vsed in the same : who may well open and declare the reason ? And yet all these thynges though they be coueryd and hyd / we bere vppon our shoulders what tyme we in such wyse accomplysh and fulfyll them / as we haue receyued them of the great byshoppe Cryste and hys chyldren , delyuered and commended vnto vs .

Damascene in the fourth boke in the .xiii. chapyter of the prayeng towarde the oryente wryteth thus : This tradicyon of the apostles , is not wryten / for many thynges are delyuered vnto vs wythout wrytynge . And farther in the .xvii. chapyter where it is wryten of y●●urshyppynge of the ymages of sayntes , he sayeth that many thynges the holy apostles haue delyuered vnto vs wythout wrytynge . Saynt Poule the apostle of the gentyles wryteth in this wyse : Stande faste and obserue our tradycyons , whyche ye be taught , be yt by our worde or by wrytynge . And vnto the Corynthyes thus : I commende ye my brethern / by cause in euery thyng ye haue remembred me , and kepte the tradycyons as I delyuered ye them .

Dyonise the fyrste chapyter of Ecclesiasticae hierarchiae , of the leders and maysters of the crysten fayth , sayth that they delyuered vs many thynges to be kepte , partely by wrytynge and partely by theyr instytucyons vnwryten .

Saynte Cypriane in his sermon of the wasshynge of the fete : The hygh preste hym selfe , is the ordayner and author of his owne sacrament . In all the resydew men were taught by the holy goste . And lykewyse as in Criste and in the holy goste , is lyke and egall godhed : so is there in theyr instytucyons and ordynaunces , lyke power and egall authoryte . And no lesse is yt ratyfyed of god , the thyng that th apostles by the inspyracyon of the holy goste dyd instytute : then the thynge that hym selfe hath ordeyned / and hath in remembraunce of hym selfe , wylled and commaunded to be done . Eche of them hath theyr owne proper dygnyte / and eche of them hath in theyr owne kynde egall authoryte . Nothynge maye there eyther be addyd or wythdrawne , nothynge neyther reformed nor chaunged .

Saynte Hyllary in the syxte boke of the Trynyte , when he had made mencyon of the apostles wryteth in this wyse : Of these apostles am I taught these thynges that I obserue . In them am I so seasoned , that the taste can neuer be goten oute .

Theophilactus vppon these wordes of saynt Poule My brethern stande faste and kepe the tradycyons that ye haue lerned , be yt by my worde or by my letters : of this trewly yt is euyd●nt that saynt Poule delyuered vnto them many thynges to be kepte wythout wrytynge , and by worde of mouth onely / that ys to saye wyth lyuely voyce , not by letters all onely . For as well be those thynges to be byleued , as these . And therfore let vs esteme th obseruaūces of the chyrce , worthy to be byleued / so that yf any thynge be delyuered to vs by the chyrch : neuer aske farther questyon .

Saynte Hierome interp●etynge the .xi. chapyter of the fyrste epystle to the Corynthyes , sayth in this wyse : Saynt Poule preuented them , to th entent none of them shold say / where is this wryten ? nor shold wyth any other argumentes stryue agaynste this reason . And therfore he sayde , we haue no suche custome to stryue and contende / neyther we nor yet the chirche of god , whych is rather geuen to myldenesse then to contencyon and stryfe .

Theophilactus expowneth the same place lykewyse and sayth : For as myche as the Corinthyans wolde perchaunce collour this mater by certayne subtyltyes , and wente about yt by syllogysmys & sophistycacyons / alledgynge that these thynges were neyther good nor bad , but of theyr nature indyfferent : therfore saynt Poule sayde , we haue no such custome other to be contencyouse , or a man to let his here grow in length , or a woman to go bare hed , neither haue we ( sayd saynt Poule ) this custome / nor the chirche of god that ys , nor the other crysten people neyther . And therfore by suche frowarde argumentes / ye seme to resyste and withstande not onely me , but also the chyrche yt selfe .

These wordes therfore of saynte Poule / maye make the herers ashamed , to do any thynge contrarye to the custome receyued by the chyrche .

Saynte Leo also an holyman and a cunnynge / in a sermon that he maketh in the faste at whytesontyde , sayeth in thys wyse : There is no doute my welbeloued brethern , but that euery crysten obseruaunce is of Crystes techynge / and what so euer is receyued of the chyrche into a custome of deuocyon , commeth of th apostles tradycyon , and of the doctryne of the holy goost . which holy spiryte euen now also doth rule all faythfull hertes wyth his own instruccyon , to make them kepe them obedyently and vnderstande them wysely .

Saynte Austayne in the boke of the baptysme of yonge chyldren , agaynste the Pelagians wry●eth in thys wyse . Chyldren whiche be baptysed be taken in the nomber of faythfull peple / and that onely by an olde cononyke & sure grounded custome of the chyrche . And in a nother place agayne : Now sayth he we haue shewed you afore that the lyttell chyld beleueth , & that he is accounted amonxst men that be baptysed . Thys holdeth the authoryte of our mother holy chirch / and this holdeth the rule of the sure grounded fayth . who so runneth agaynste this fortresse , this inexpugnable wall / shall all to frush hym selfe .

Cassianus in the .xi. collacyon the .xii. chapiter : th authoryte of the olde fathers , and the custome of our elders contynued by the space of so many yeres vnto this day / although the cause of them be not perceyued by vs : muste we fyrmely byleue . And that custome must we with perpetuall obseruaunce reuerently fulfyll , in such wyse as yt was delyuered of olde .

Saynte Austayne in the .cxviii. pystle to Ianuary sayeth thus : Those thynges whych are not wryten , and yet we by tradycyon obserue them , such I meane as are thorow Crystendome kepte : we may well vnderstande that they be kept as thynges ordeyned and commaunded vnto vs , eyther by the apostles them selfe , or ellys by generall counsayles / the authoryte wherof is in the chyrch moste necessary . As for ensample that the passyon of Cryste , and his resurreccion , and hys ascensyon into heuen , and the comynge of the holy goost from heuen are yerely celebrate with a solemne feaste / and what someuer thyng we fynde that is obserued amonge all people , where the chyrche of Cryste ys sprede .

Many thynges be not founde in the wrytynges of the apostles , nor in the counsayles of those that cam after them / whyche yet bycause they be kepte of all the hole chyrche , we byleue them to haue hadde no nother bygynnynge , but by the tradycyon and commendacyon of the apostles vnto vs by them selfe .

Saynt Austayne in the fourth boke of baptisme agaynst the Donatystes : The thynge that the hole chyrche holdeth , and is not instytute and ordeyned by counsayles , and that not wytstandynge hath ben euer obserued : we very well by leue , that yt neuer byganne but by the authoryte of the apostles tradycyon .

Saynte Austayne in the fyfte boke of baptysme agaynst the Donatistes sayth , Many thynges are there whyche the vnyuersall chyrche holdeth / and therfore be well byleued , that the apostles haue commaunded them , though they be not founde in wrytynge .

Saynte Austayne in the .xi. chapiter of the .ix. boke of his confessyons , wrytynge of the departyng of that holy blessed woman his mother Monica : sheweth that all be yt before tyme she had ben very studyous of the place where she wold be beryed , longed specyally to be layed by her husbande / yet at the tyme that she lay dyenge , beynge then farre from the place where her husbande lay / shewed vnto saynt Austayne then psent wyth her , that she cared not in what chyrch they beryed her bodye / but she prayed them very effectually to remember her in his masse whyche thynge I wryte the ye may se , that the masse and prayenge for soules therin , ys not so new a thynge as Tyndale wolde haue yt seme .

And in the nexte chapyter after , saynte Austayne sayeth these wordes spoken vnto god : Her body was caryed forth , we folowed , & cam agayne wythoute teares . And ouer that in those prayers whych we made vnto the , when the sacryfyce of our redempcion was offered for her , the corps beyng set by the graue as the maner is there : I wept not in those prayers neyther , but all the day was I in a greuouse secrete sorowe .

And afterwarde in the laste chapyter of the same boke , saynt Austayne prayeth for his mother vnto our Lord among many other wordes in thys wyse . I good lorde that art my prayse and my lyfe , the god of my hart / settynge a syde for the whyle my mothers vertues and goodnesse , for whych I ioyfully geue the thankes : wyll now beseche the for her synnys . Here me gracyously good lorde / for that medycyne of out woundes whyche honge vppon the crosse , and now syttynge at thy ryght hande , doth call vppon the for vs . I know good lorde that she dyd workes of mercy , and that she hartely dyd frogyue the dettes vnto her dettours . Forgyue thou good lorde her dettes to her , suche also as she hath fallen in by so many yeres after the water of helthe . Forgyue her good lorde forgyue her I beseche the , and enter not wyth her into iudgement . And afterwarde he sayth , And I beleue good lorde that thou hast done all redy the thynge that I praye for . For she when the daye approched of her departynge / nothyng bethought her how she myghte haue her body costely couered or dressed wyth spyc●s , nor longed for a sumptuouse sepulchre , nor cared not to be beryed in her owne countrey . These were not the thynges that she any thynge requyred vs / but onely desyred vs to haue her in remembraunce at thyne auter to whyche she hadde ben accustomed no daye myssynge to do seruyce / from whyche she well knewe that holy sacryfyce to be dyspensed , by whyche the oblygacyon that made agaynst vs was cancelled , and by whyche was led as a captyue in triumphe that ennemy of ours , that kepeth a rekenynge of our synnes / and sekynge what he myght obiecte , coulde in hym nothynge fynde in whom we haue had the vyctory● who can shed hym agayne an innocent blood for hys ? who can restore hym agayne the raunson that he redeined vs wyth ? To the sacrament of whych raunson of ours , thyne hand mayde hath bounde her soule with the bonde of fayth . Let no man pull her from thy proteccyon . Let neyther the lyon nor the dragon neyther byforce nor by false sleyght , steppe in betwene her and the. She shall not answere that she oweth the naught , lest she be therin conuynced and cast , and that therby her suttle accuser get her . But she shall answere that her dettes be forgyuen her , whom no man is able to paye that he payed for vs , when he owed naught for hym selfe . In peace mote she be therfore , and her husbonde to / a fore whom and after whom she neuer maryed non / whom she lyke a seruaunt obeyd bryngynge frute to the , thorow her pacyent sufferaunce , that she myght therby wynne hym to the to . Inspyre good lorde my god , inspyre thy seruauntes my bretherne , thy chyldren my lordes , whom both wyth worde and herte and wrytynge I serue / that as many as rede thys may remember at thyn aulter , thy seruaunt Monica with Patricius somtyme her husbande , by whose flesh thou haste brought me into thys lyfe I can not tell howe . Make them remember wyth a deuoute assercion , them that were in thys transytory lyfe my father and mother , & vnder the my father and my mother the catholyke chyrche , where my syster and brother , and in the eternall Hierusalem , shall be my neyghbours and cytesens / whyche Hierusalem thy people from theyr goynge forth tyll theyr commyng home , in all theyr pylgrymag longeth for and sygheth . Good lord graunte thys , that the thynge whych was the laste that euer she desyred of me , she may the more plentuously obteyne● by the prayours of many mo .

The olde holy doctour saynte Chrysostome , in his home lye wherin he sheweth that almes dede , masses , and diriges greatly profyte them that are dede / among many other thynges wryteth in thys wyse .

It was not for naughte ordeyned by th apostles , that in the dredfull mysteryes of the masse , sholde commemoracyon be made for them that be dede . For th apostles knewe that thereby cometh to the soules , great auauntage and profyte . For when all the people standeth to gether , holdynge vppe theyr handes , and the preste fulfyll●th hys obseruaunce , and that dredfull sacrifyce set forth : how can yt be , but that then praynge for the soules , ●e shall obteyne .

Now se you very playne good cristen readers , that of the eldeste and the very best that euer haue wryten vppon the scrypture of god in Crystes chirche , and whyche bene holy sayntes in heuen , and suche as sufferd persecucyon for goddes sake : do testyfye for our parte , that the thynges whych the catholyke chirche vnyuersally ●yleueth and vseth , are nothynge to be douted of / but to be byleued and vsed whyther they be founden in scrypture or not . And ye se that they saye that the apostles taught and delyuered to the chyrche dyuerse thynges by mouth , bysyde all that they wrote , whyche thyng saynt Poule sayth also hym self / and yet bysyde that , we se that of his wrytynge there is parte soste .

ye se also that some suche thynges as Tyndale sayeth , that the popes haue oflate fayned them selfe for theyr lucre , as the masse and the paynes of purgatory : both saynte Austayne , and saynte Chrysostome , and other holy sayntes / saye that the thynges were byleued , vsed , and taught by the apostles them selfe .

〈◊〉 as for the olde holy doctours , ye se howe farre they 〈◊〉 Tyndale / and therfore of Tyndale or theym byleue whom ye lyke ●este for me / and consyder well wyth your selfe , wyth whyther of those two were surer to sende your soules .

yet is there as old as any that I haue rehersed yet , saynt Polycarpus the dyscyple of saynte Iohn , whyche wrote a boke of the tradycyons geuen vnto the chyrche by the apostles / whyche wolde playnely haue proued Tyndale a fole and a lyar both , yf the boke hadde not ben loste . And vndoutely god wolde neuer haue sufferd yt to be loste , yf he coulde not haue kepte hys tradycyons without wrytynge .

How be yt what nede we better or elder then as I byfore haue sayde , the authoryte of saynte Iohn hym selfe in hys laste chapyter of the gospell : Many thynges were done that are not writen in this boke / or of saynt Poule wrytyng hym selfe to the Corynthyes : All other thynges I wyll ordeyne when I come my selfe / and to the Thessalonycenses : kepe you my preceptes or institucyons , whych I haue geuen you eyther by worde or by my pystle . By whych wordes yt appereth well , that he had wryten vnto them byfore that then was holy scrypture , and yet hadde ●en yf yt hadde ben kepte and preserued , and was not wythout good thynges therin and necessarye / wherof parte may be suche thynges as the heretykes now do barke at , bycause the pystle is loste . But god is not loste , that preserueth styll the mater though he lette go the letter .

Saynte Poule also to Timothe wryteth of such vnwryten tradycyons well and playnely , in his secunde pystle in these wordes : Thou therfore my son Timothe , be comforted in the grace that is Cryste Iesu / and those thynges that thou haste herd of me by many wytnesses , commyte theym vnto faythfull men , such as shal be mete to teche them forth to other men . Those wordes of saynt Poule do very playnely shew , that some thynges there were whyche saynt Poule taught Timothe , and that in presence of certayne good vertues wytnesse / and whyche thynges were as saynt Ambrose sayth secrete mysteries . whych thynges he there commaunded Timothe to commytte also to other faythfull men , suche as shold be able and mete to teche , to th entent that they myght teche the same thynges farther / and whiche be some of such thynges as these heretyques now barke at , that are comen fro mouth to mouth , and from hande to hande , from the apostles dayes vnto our owne .

It is a myche lesse thynge also , to byleue our selfe to be bounden to do a thynge of necessyte , wythout authoryte of scrypture / then to thynke our selfe wythoute scrypture vnbounden and in no necessyte to do the thynge whyche we fynde commaunded in scrypture . But we fynde commaunded in scrypture , fyrst by the law of nature , and after in the law wryten the olde law wyth a cause annexed for vyolatyng of nature , and after agayne by the apostles as I haue rehersed in the new law the .xv. of the actes , that men sholde abstayne from strangled , and from bloode / of whyche commaundement in scrypture we se no dyscharge but the custome of the catholyke chyrch / & yet hath Tyndale no scruple to eate a puddyng though he se it prohybyted by all the lawes , and by the apostles them selfe , & by the holy goost to , wyth lyke wordes as they forbode fornycacyon . And dyscharge as I say seeth he none , but the tradycyon of the chyrche / whyche when he dare byle●e in leuynge a thynge vndone , that the scrypture so often commaundeth : why dare he not byleue the tradycyon of the chyrche , where it commaundeth a thynge to be done , that the scrypture dothe not forbede , but onely speketh not of it .

I wolde in lyke wyse fayne wyt of Tyndale , whyther he thynke any parte of crysten people bounden at thys daye of necessyte to the wasshyng of the fete , wherof Cryste at hys maunday gaue ensample and commaundement also / not without a greate thretenynge vnto saynte Peter of losse of heuen , but yf he suffred hym to wasshe his fete . I dowte not but Tyndale thynketh hym selfe dyscharged of that bond / and yet are the wordes of Crystes commaundement in that obseruaunce , as playne as in the commaundement of the sacrament of the auter / and longe was it vsed after in suche wyse / and saynte Cypryane dyd in hys dayes reken it for a thynge necessary . Now let Tyndale tell me wherby he knoweth hym selfe dyscharged of that wasshynge , but by the spyryte of god abydyng in his chyrch . And let hym then tell me whyche chyrche but hys catholyke chyrche . For an vnknowen chyrche can tell hym nothynge , and all other knowen chyrches besyde the catholyke be all knowen for heretykes . Or ellys let Tyndale tell whyche of all them is the trew chyrch / & why rather that then any of all the remanaunt .

If the spyryte of god gouernynge the chyrche , and ledynge it in to all trouth , put vs not in surety and certaynte of the trouth : how coud he be to vs as he is named paracletus , that is a comforter , yf we were lefte so comfortele●●e that we were vncertayne whyther the hole chyrche were in damnable errour in stede of the ryght fayth .

Take awaye that spiryte fro the chyrche / and howe can Tyndale excuse the apostles of theyr baptysynge in the name of Cryste onely , when Cryste hadde hym selfe commaunded them to baptise in the name of the father and the sonne & the holy goost . How wyll he excuse saynt Poule for takynge awaye the circumcysyon , whych god hadde byfore commaunded , and sayde that yt sholde be his euerlastynge token and couenaunte , and Cryste kepte it hym selfe / and saynt Poule circumcyded Timothe hym selfe , and yet afterwarde forbode yt ? how knew he when he shold do the tone and when the tother ? by bare ymagynacyons of hys owne mynde ? naye by that spiryte they knew yt / whyche as yt ruled them , so ruleth yt the chyrch in the necessary poyntes of fayth , and euer shall vnto the worldes ende .

God proued wyll Tyndale saye theyr doctrine wyth myracles . So doth he say I the doctryne of hys whole chyrche contynually . For therin he wurketh miracles contynually / and in all the chyrches of heretyques is there wroughte neuer one . weneth Tyndale that our lorde hadde the cure of hys apostles whom he ordeyned for hys chyrche / and that he hath no cure of hys chyrche for whome he made hys apostles .

And yf Tyndale lyste so precy●ely to lene to scrypture onely , that he wyll not take the comen catholyque fayth for an interpretour : he shall fynde it very hard to defende some suche poyntes as be not onely trew , but be also suche as yf the chyrche wolde saye contrary , yet wolde he say they were trewe .

For Tyndale setteth not so myche by baptysme , but that he wyll agre that fayth iustyfyeth wythoute baptysme . And yet take awaye the credence of the catolyque chyrch / and he shall neuer be able whyle he lyueth so well to proue by scrypture , that a martyr may be saued and broughte to heuen wythout baptysme , but that these wordes of oure sauyour shall alwaye stande styll in his lyghte , Nisi quis renatu● f●erit ●● aqua & spiritu san●to , non potest introire in regnum dei . who so be not borne agayne of the water and the spyryte , can not enter into the kyngdome of heuen .

Now where as Tyndale techeth after his mayster Martine Luther , that as often as a man onely repent , though he be neuer in mynde to do penaunce nor be confessed neyther / hys onely fayth shall saue hym , and geteth hym forthwyth full remyssyon both of synne and payne : yf he wyll geue credence to the chyrche , he shall fynde that fayth of hys full false . And yf he wyll not geue credence to the chyrche , but precysely stande to the scrypture : then shall he fynde yet that fayth more false , yf he wyll be bounden as precysely to the wordes hym selfe as he wolde bynde other men . For he shall neuer be then so well able to proue that any man fallynge to dedely synne after crystendome ones hadde , shal be by any repentaun●e restored agayne / but that there wyll stande styll in his lyghte the wordes of the apostle sayenge , when we wylfully synne after the knowledge of the trouthe hadde , there is not nowe lefte vs any sacrifyce for synnes / but a terryble expeccyon and lokynge for of iudgement , and of fyerce and ragyouse fyre , whyche shall consume the aduersaryes . There wyll also stande in this lyghe , these wordes of the apostle : He● . ● . yt is impossyble that they whyche haue ben ones illumyned and haue ta●●● that heuenly gyfte , and haue be made partetakers of the holy goost , and haue tasted also the good worde of god , and the vertues of the world to come , and are fallen downe : sholde be renewed agayn to penaunce / crucyfyeng agayne for theyr owne parte , the sonne of god , and hauynge hym as in de●isyon .

If Tyndale say that he can so constre these textes as they shall not hurte his heresyes : I deny not the he so may do / & I can to so constre them● , that they shall not hurte the trouth , that is to wytte the catholyque fayth . But yet this I saye , that when he and I haue both done what we can / yet who so lyste to holde that heresye agaynste his repentaunce and the chyrches penaunce to , shall not lakke wordes wherwith he maye seme to suche as wyll sette the chyrche at naughte , to maynteyne hys parte as well as we bothe maynteyne ours . And therfore I say takynge awaye the credence from the catholyque knowen chyrche ( for no chyrche vnknowen can be byleued , syth it can not be herd / and all other knowen chyrches be false , or ellys lette Tyndale as I haue often sayde tell me whyche of theym all is the trewe , and why we sholde therin byleue hym , the credence therfore as I saye taken from the catholyque knowen chyrche / there can be no thynge sure but all thynge vncertayne , both tradycyons of th apostles , exposycyons of scrypture , and the very scrypture yt selfe to .

And vnto the tother syde , yf the credence of the knowen catholyke chyrche abyde , as it nedys muste abyde yf the scrypture abyde , by whyche it is promysed by Cryst that hym self and hys owne holy spyryte shall dwell therwyth all dayes vnto the worldes ende : then be we sure not onely whyche are the holy scryptures and the sure holsome exposycyons therof but also whych are the tradycyons delyuered vnto the chyrche by god / of whythe some were delyuered by the apostles them selfe , and some by hys holy spyryte synnes . And what so euer Tyndale bable to the contrary / god is yet at as mych lybertye to teache hys chyrche forther what trouth he wyll hereafter , and to delyuer it what tradycyon he wyll hereafter , and to commaunde hys hole chyrche to byleue and obaye hym therm / as well I saye hereafter as euer he was before .

For I wolde fayne wytte of Tyndale , yf the hole chyrch shall neuer byleue nor do nothynge as of necessyte , but that is all redy wryten in scrypture : why shall any one man be bounden to byleue or do any thynge as of necessyte , though god byd hym by mouth / yf it be not wryten in scrypture . And yf he wyll saye , no more maye any one man be bounden neyther : then putteth he away quyte all reuelacyons / whych I neuer herd any man hytherto deny , but that god maye reuele and man be bounden to byleue and obaye . And surely yf he graunte that any one man maye be bounden therto : so maye then for aught that I can se or aught that he can saye , the hole chyrche in lyke wyse .

Fynally there is no dowte , but that ere the new testament was wryten / men were bounden to byleue thynges without scrypture . And then syth Tyndale wyll nothynge byleue vs wythout scrypture / and he maye not loke of reason that we sholde any more byleue hym wythout scrypture then he vs : let Tyndale now tell me therfore by whyche texte of scrypture in all that is wryten , is that bond releaced and dyscharged . And where are we eyther commaunded or lycenced nothyng to byleue but yf it be conteyned in that scrypture that is now wryten . whyche thynge yf he can not shewe ●as he can not in dede ) then abydeth that bond styll to byleue the thynges that the catholyke chyrche techeth vs as the worde of god to be byleued and yet vnwryten as the same bonde stode and bounde vs before , to byleue those necessary thynges that now be wryten .

Now yf Tyndale answere thys argument and saye that he nedeth not to laye forth any texte of scrypture dysch●rgynge vs of that bonde / but that it is inough for hym to proue that all thynge that is of necessyte is by the apo●●●es wryten / and that no suche thynge as we be bounden to ●●leue or do , is by them selfe vnwryten : yf Tyndale answere vs thus , then is he but whe●e he was . For then shall we yet agayne do as he nedys muste , and neuer may brynge in one texte of scrypture by whyche he maye proue that all suche thynges be wryten .

whyche thynge when he can not do / yf he wyll then be playne and confesse the trouth that he can not proue hys owne parte , but wyll then byd vs proue our owne parte / and wyll tell vs that lyke as he sayth that the apostles d●d put all in wrytynge wherof he fayleth hys profe , so we saye that they dyd leue dyuers thynges vnwryten / and that of those be some of such thynges as the chyrche now byleueth and obserueth that are not wryten in scrypture / and wyll byd vs go proue hym that for our parte , and wyll saye that ellys he is no more bounden to byleue vs then we be to byleue hym : yf Tyndale wyll as I saye confesse the trouth that he can not proue hys owne parte , and therfore wyll byd vs go proue ours / then shall we tell hym that we proue oures by the manyfolde playne textes of holy scrypture afore remembred , bothe of saynt John & of saynt Poule / & myghte yet adde dyuers other wyth whyche Rosseus an englysshe man hath longe a go proued that poynte vnto Luther / and that so clerely that as Tyndale knoweth , Luther was neuer able to answere one worde agayne . And I saye ferther that we proue our parte , that is to wyt that the apostles gaue thynges vnto the chyrche wythout wrytynge , whyche haue in the chyrche contynued besyde the scrypture : thys I saye we proue to Tyndale by the selfe same meanys , by whyche Tyndale proueth vs that he knoweth the scrypture to be the scrypture● For yf he wyll saye as he sayeth in hys boke agaynste me● that he knoweth the scrypture by the same meanes that the eagle knoweth her byrdes / meanyng that as she knoweth them by a secrete inwarde instincte of nature , so he knoweth the scrypture by a secrete inwarde instyncte of the spiryte of god : I saye that we know the tradycyons taught by god and hys apostles by the same secrete inwarde instyncte of the same spiryte . But then saye we farther that the same spiryte dyd teache the chirche to know whych was the very scrypture , byfore it dyd teche y● Tyndale . And Tindale had not byleued that the scrypture was the scrypture , yf the chirche hadde not tolde hym so . Nor the holy spyryte hadde not wrought wyth Tyndale towarde the bylyefe therof / yf Tyndale when the chyrche tolde hym so , hadde done as he doth , sette the chyrche at nought . For synnes that he so hath done / he not onely byleueth not the tradycyons of god geuen to his chyrche by his apostles and his worde vnwryten , but also byleueth lesse of the scrypture then he dyd byfore . And I saye that god by hys worde vnwryten dyd teache his chyrche to know his wordes wryten , and his tradycions also , whyche he taught the chyrche by his apostles / and made the chyrche agre therin by his spyryte , whiche maketh men of one mynde and one custome in the chyrche , and whyche spiryte kepeth both the wordes wryten and the wordes vnwriten in perpetuall knowledge and obseruaunce in his chyrche / accordynge as the very worde of god vnwryten , that is hys naturall worde of hym selfe bygoten seeth necessarye abydynge wyth his chirche for euer accordynge to his owne promyse . And now if Tyndale aske with which chyrche ? I saye wyth hys catholyque chyrche / wyth hys chirche in whyche onely chirche he wurketh miracles wyth his chirche , whyche he commaundeth men to here and obay / and fynally wyth the same chirche , by whyche chirche Tyndale lerned to know whych is the scripture . whych chirch lette Tyndale tell me why he shold not as well byleue when yt telleth hym , these thynges the apostles dyd teache and d●lyuer wythout wrytynge / as he byleueth yt , when yt telleth hym these bokes the apostles dyd wryte .

If nothynge hadde be wryten / Tyndale muste haue byleued the chirche in all to gether . And why sholde he now for the wrytyng of parte ( for that all is wryten ye se well he can not proue ) byleue the chyrch the lesse in the remanaunt that remayneth yet vnwryten / or for that that was wryten at one tyme , byleue the chyrche the lesse in all that yt teacheth after vnwryten . whyche thynge Tyndale doth , and that so farre forth / that where as god worketh mirycles in his chirche to make the chyrch● and the doctryne thereof knowen for trew : Tyndale then vnder the false pretexte of fauour to goddes wrytynge , blasphemeth all his vnwryten wordes , and hym selfe to , wyth callynge goddes myracles nothynge but dyuels wonders .

And this dot● Tyndale / bycau●e he wolde not in any wyse , that the chyrche hadde any credence farther then yt can proue by the wryten wordes of some apostle , where he woteth well that th apostles wrote not all that they taught , and also that god ordeyned his apostles for hys chyrch , and not his chyrche for hys apostles / and doth therfore more esteme and more sette by his chyrche , then by any of his apostles , or all the whole twelue to gether . And yet wyll not Tyndale byleue for goddes word any thynge that the chyrch teacheth for his worde , but yf he fynde it wryten in holy scrypture / where as yf he byleue not the chyrch , he can neuer tell of any parte of scripture whyther it be holy scrypture or not .

But his dealynge well declareth wherfore he wold haue nothynge byleued wythoute scrypture . The cause is none other but bycause he wolde haue nothynge byleued of no man but what he lyste hym selfe . For he wyll not stykke to denye some parte of holy scrypture for holy scrypture / and expowne all the remanaunt in suche false folyshe fashyon , that among his other hundred heresyes , he wolde make vs so madde to byleue that freres may wedde nōnes● and that no man sholde wurshyppe the precyouse body & holy blood of Cryste in the blessed sacrament of the auter .

And fynally thus ye se that Tyndale and suche other as wolde haue vs reiecte and refuse al that god hath taughte hys chirche , but yf yt be proued by scrypture : be not onely vnable to proue or defende that heresye / but also do handle the scrypture yt selfe in suche a shamefull wyse , that yf other men whom they reproue dyd not handle yt better , yt hadde ben better to haue lefte all to gether vnwryten , and neuer hadde scrypture at all . And we muste nedes perceyue that wythout the bylyefe and credence geuen vnto the catholyke chyrche of Cryste we coulde be sure of nothynge , but that as saynte Paule sayth , the chirche is the pyller and strength of the trewth .

And thus ende I my thyrde boke , conteynyng the answere of hys two specyall chapyters / the tone , whyther the worde were byfore the chyrche , or the chyrch byfore the worde / and the tother , whyther the apostles lefte any thynge vnwryten , necessary to soule helth . In whyche two poyntes as gloryousely as he glytered in his owne y●e : euery man seeth now how fowle a fall he hath / whereby more then halfe of hys heresyes are vtterly drowned in dyr● .

And now shall I ( god wyllyng ) in my fourth boke as sone as my tyme shall serue my / so confute his false fayth , and so shew whyche is the chyrche : that I shall leue Tyndale neuer a chyrche for hys flokke / but the chyrche wherof the the prophete speketh , Odiui ecclesiam malignantium , I haue hated the chyrche of malycyouse folke / whyche chyrche is very proper for hym . For all that euer Tyndale wryteth , when it is well consydered : is powdered with malyce toward all good men , bothe relygyouse that lyue here in erth , & sayntes that are lyuyng in heuen .

Thus endeth the thyrde boke .

¶ The fawtes escaped in the pryntynge .

Thefawty●inthepreface. The fawtes The amendementy● . v. leaf . ●● . syde A. v● . takyng talkyng vj. leaf A. xij . deth Hytton deth of Hytton the same lefe C.x. to an fro to and fro vii . lefe.ii.●yde B. xii . Thymas Thomas viij . leaf B. xiiij.i● England in England the same lefe .ii. syde A. i● . and that and some that ix . leaf A. ix . accordyng to vnto accordyng vnto x. lefe.ii.syde B. iiij . thas that xiiij . leaf A. ij . And thys And to thys xvj . leaf B. iij . ●efte fefte

¶ThefawtesintheBoke. ● . C.viij . then them ix . A.j. is that the is the ix . C.j. salfe false xxvii● . A. vj . neth ned xxx . C.xiiij . man maner xxx . C.xiiij . penaus penauns xxxj . C.vi sauaunt saruaunt xxxii● . B. xi● . vncharmed charmed xl . B.j. keth ked xlii● . A. vj . acco●●yng the accordyng to ●he l● . B.v. la●●ed la●●eth lij . A. xi . i● i● i●● liiij . B. xiiii . lo●t le●t lxv . C.xiiii . fyght le●acyon syght of the leuacyon lxxxix . A. viii . xv . C. viii . C. xc . C.ix. preserue persecute xciii . B. xii . god good xcv . C.ii. thanke thanked xcix . B. xi . and all at all cxxxi . B. iii . neyther eyther cxxxvi . C.vi beche beseche cxl . A. xi . holy hole cl. C.xiiii . rather thys rather than thys clxxxiiii . B.i. euery man to man perceyue euery man to perceyue clxxxviii . C.i. vnto hym vnto them cxcvj . C.xiiij . them selfe them hym selfe cc. B. iii . euer hath synny● euer synny● ccx . B. vii . may mary ccx . C.iii. euery may euery man may ccxv . B.v. neythe neyther ccxvi . A.v. not care not ccxix . B. iii . euery very ccxx●ii . C.xii. argument agrement ccxl●iii B. vii . yf any of any ccxl●iii . B. viii apofile apofiles ccxlvi . B. vii . for me fro me cclxv . B. xii . vnwryten otherwyse vnwryten eny otherwyse cclx●ii . A. iii . teac●e teache cclxxii . A.v. say ●● say yt cclxxiii . B. ii . at all and all cclxxvii . B. iiii . bowle● bowels ccxc . C.v. be nother be no nother ccxcii . A.v. Iuspicite S●rutamin● cccvii . A. ix . heretyque heretyques cccxiiii . A. xi cononyke canonyke cccxv . B. vi . them hym cccxvi . C. xii● . where were ccxxi . B. ix . thy● lygh● ●ye lygh● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈…〉〈…〉