THere is a nother question , whyther the chyrche maye erre . Whyche yf ye vnderstande of the pope and hys generacyon / is verely as harde a questyon as to aske whyther he that hath bothe hys eyes out be blynde or no , or whyther it be possible for hym that hath one legge shorter then a nother , to halte .

WHo wolde not nowe wene that thys man had a playne clere open cause and easy to defende / when that euyn in the begynnyng in so few wordes , he concludeth all the mater at onys / and that wyth ensamples so playne and euydent , that euery man muste nedys agree them to be trew● But when ye shall agayne se , that hys ensamples are no more lyghtsome , then v●lyke the mater that he resembleth them vnto / and that he eyther of wylynesse wyll not , or for lacke of wytte can not perceyue and se the poynt that he shulde towche : then shall euery wyse man well perceyue and se , that hys solempne shewe of suche confydence in hys euyll cause , is nothynge but a playne proclamacyon made by hys owne mouth , of hys owne rebuke and shame .

For here wolde I wytte what thynge Tyndale meaneth , by the pope and popys generacyon . If he meane hys carnall kynredde , or the pope and his cardynallys eyther : he then wynketh of wylynesse , and wyll not se the marke . For he knoweth very well that neyther of these is the thyng that we call the chyrche , when we speke of the catholyke chyrche of Cryste that can not erre .

If he meane by the pope and hys generacyon , all the crystens nacyons not beynge cut of nor caste out for theyr obstynate malyce , nor of wylfulnesse departyng out by sedycyouse scysmes : then seeth he the marke at the leste wyse . But then whyle he sayth that all these nacyons maye and hath all thys .viii. hundred yere , so entyerly fallen in to heresyes and dampnable errours , that by all thys .viii. hundred yeres laste passed vnto Luthers dayes , nor yet vnto thys daye neyther , there hath ben no one knowen congregacyon any where , wherin the professynge of the very ryght catholyke fayth of Cryst hath bene so surely kepte , that yt myghte there be surely lerned and knowen : then I saye Tyndale ys as blynde as he that lacketh bothe hys eyes / in that he seeth not that by thys waye he maketh our sauyoure Cryste that is very trewth to saye very false , where he sayth I am wyth you to the ende of the worlde / & wolde make hym farre ouerseen , ●atth. 28. where he commaunded that who so wolde not here the chyrche , Matth. 1● . shulde be reputed and taken as Paynyms and Publicans / and in many a playn texte of scrypture mo , as I haue before shewed , as well in my dyaloge as myne other thre formar bokes of this present worke , and yet hereafter shall forther .

Moreouer , yf Tyndale saye that all thys knowen corps of crystendome , haue all these .viii. hundred yere ben in a wronge bylyefe / where hath ben all thys whyle the ryght congregacyon of Tyndals chyrche , that hath h●● the trewe bylyefe ? And lette hym tell vs then , whyche congregacyon it was , or where any suche is yet , of whom we maye surely lerne the trewe fayth and trewe vertues .

If he saye that it hath ben amonge these , and was in thys chyrche but not of thys chyrch / but they haue lurked there a few faythfull folke , amonge the greate many multytude of the faythlesse , and haue euer bene to the worlde and outwarde syghte of man vnknowen / not so mych knowen as one of them to another , but yet very well knowen to god : to thys , besydes that yf they haue lyen all thys whyle lurkynge therin , they haue be then idolatres by theyr owne iudgemente , in image seruyce and prayeng to sayntes ( yf Tyndals doctryne be the trewe faythe ) and starke ypocrytes in beynge of one bylyefe in theyr hartes , and pretendyng another , both in theyr wordes and dedes / and besyde dyuerse other inuyncyble reasons , wyth which I haue all redy reproued that fonde opynyon in the seconde boke of my dyaloge , where vnto Tyndale hath made so bare answere that it hadde ben more wysedome for hym to haue lette it all alone and medle nothynge therwyth , as euery chylde almoste maye well perceyue that lyste to loke on them bothe , and aduysedly compare them togyder , as I shall my selfe set it forth vnto them when god shall after other thynges done gyue me tyme to come therto / and besyde dyuers other argumentes euydent and playne , whyche I partely haue , partely shall alledge and brynge forth in thys present work : this one can he neuer auoyde whyle he lyueth , that god had then lefte euery man perplexed in dowte and out of certaynte , what waye he myghte surely take and cleue vnto , eyther in the doctryne of fayth or knowlege of vertuose lyuynge .

For yf he saye that we nede no knowen company , but euery man maye rede the scrypture hym selfe : euery man he woteth well can not rede , nor euery man vnderstand it though he haue it in hys owne tonge / but by the redynge wythout a reder , maye soone fall into the dampnable errour of Arrius , Heluidius , and many a nother heretyke mo / whyche of the scrypture thorow theyr owne pryde toke occasyon of theyr heresyes .

If he then saye that of that vnknowen congregacyon , we maye haue a trew reder : where shall I seke hym , and wherby shall I knowe hym / yf I happen on hym , howe shall I be sure ? For in thys great knowen congregacyon , we be saufe agaynste all suche parell . For we be all agreed vppon the necessarye artycles of the fayth . And yf any wolde preche and teche the contrary / as he that wold percase teche that confessyon is not necessarye , and that penaunce nedeth not , and that of the .vii. sacramentes .v. serue of nought , and the syxte of almost as lytell / and that of the seuenth all crysten nacyons be , and all thys .xv. hundred yere haue ben in a very damnable erroure : he that thus wolde preache and teche suche habomynable heresyes as nowe Tyndale doth , he maye be soone controlled , accused and corrected / excepte he ronne awaye as Tyndale doeth .

And wherby can we be sure that hys techynge whyche ys accusyd , ys false and theyrs trewe that correcte hym / but by that we be sure that the comen fayth of the catholyke chyrch is trewe / and that the catholyke knowen chyrche can not erre in that fayth , whych from hande to hande hath ben taken & kepte from Crystes dayes and hys apostles hytherto . whyche fayth muste nedes be trewe by Crystes promyse made vnto hys apostles , as teachers of hys chyrche , and not for them selfe but for hys chyrche / that is to wytte , Matth. 16. the fayth that saynte Peter professed shulde not fayle , and that god wolde be wyth them all dayes vnto the ende of the worlde . Matth. 28. And that the fayth of the knowen catholyke chyrche , that corre●teth the false fayth of the false precheours and heretykes , is the same fayth whyche the holy doctours of Crystes chyrche in euery age haue beleued and taught : saynte Ierome , saynte Austeyne , saynt Ambrose , saynte Chrysosteme , ●aynte Gregory , and saynte Cypryane do well and clerely testyfye by theyr bokes . For whyche holy doctours our lorde hath shewyd many a wonderfull myracle .

These thynges and many other maketh vs sure , that the prechour whyche prechyth agaynste the fayth of thys congregacyon is a false prechour , and a false wryther and wrester of holy scrypture / howe solempnely so euer he paynte yt .

And yf we were not sure by these meanes , that the fayth of thys knowen catholyke congregacyon is trewe / how shulde I be sure of the prechour of that vnknowen congregacyon , whyche Tyndale calleth the chyrche . How shuld I know I saye whyther the prechour say trew or not . For he hath no knowen congregacyon to reproue hym or allow hym the suerty wherof myght make me sure that he sayth trewe or false .

But then muste I sayth Tyndale , trye hym by the trewth of scrypture . what yf I be vnlerned ? what yf I can rede & haue it in my langage , and yet vnderstand it but slenderly ? what yf I be well lerned , and the false prechour as well lerned as I though he were no better : yet he shall haue texte agaynste texte , and glose agaynste glose / and when shall we then agree ? Or yf I gyue place to hym or he to me / how shall yet the nomber of vnlerned herers be satysfyed wyth our dowtefull dysputacyons , yf they were not sure by the comon fayth of the knowen catholyke chyrch , whyche of vs lyed ere euer we came to gyther . By whyche they that neuer redde any scrypture / be now by the holy goost that hath planted the trewe fayth in his catholyke chyrche ( the holy doctours wherof haue in euery age ben approued by myracles ) so inwardly sure of the trewth , that a poore symple woman yf Tyndale and I broughte the trouth in debate and questyon , and that I were waxen so madde to graunte hym that hys false heresyes were trewe / she wold not lette to byleue and saye so to , that we were two madde folys and false heretykes bothe .

And that thys is trewe shall mych the better apere when we well examyne and consyder what congregacyon Tyndale calleth the catholyke chyrch● .

I saye that Crystes electe chyrch is the hole multytude of all repentyng synners that byleue in Cryste , and put all theyr truste and confidence in the mercy of god / felynge in theyr hartes that god for Crystes sake loueth them and wyll be or rather is mercyfull vnto them , and forgyueth them theyr synnes of whyche they repente / and that he forgyueth them also all the mocyons vnto synne , of the whyche they fe●e leste they shulde therby be drawne into synne agayne . And thys fayth they haue wythout all respecte of theyr 〈◊〉 deseruynges / ye and for none other cause then that the me●●yfull truth of god the father whyche can not lye , hath so promysed and so sworne .

Nowe hath Tyndale here defyned and descrybed vs what he called the chyrche . And for as myche as hys tytell is of hys chapyter , the questyon whyther the chyrche can ●rre / and that he now for the clerynge of the questyon , declareth that there be two chyrches , the tone whyche he sayth that we take for the ch●●●he whyche he calleth the pope and hys genera●yon , and say●● that there is no dowte but that chyrche bo●●e maye ●rre and in dede so dothe / and th● tother chyrche ●hy●he hy●sel●e calleth the very chyrche ; ys thys that he now defyn●th : it wold s●me that he wold afferme that thys chyrche whyche hym selfe descrybeth , were the chyrche that can not erre . wherin what his fynall and resolute sentence is , ye shall in hys other chapyters hereafter folowyng , at a longe length very scantly perceyue / excepte hys wordes be somwhat opened and a lytell more clerely declared , then as it appereth by his wrytyng , hym selfe wolde they sholde be / and nathelesse I truste they shall be .

wherfore to th ende ye may the better vnderstande where about he goeth / & that he longeth to le●e vs in derkenesse , and fede vs forth wyth hys hygh solempne folyes that he wolde were not vnderstanden : let vs a lytell examyne the partys of hys dyffynycyon and descrypcyon of the chyrch .

where he sayth that Crystes electe chyrche , ys the hole multytude of all repentaunt synners , that haue the condycyons forther expressed in hys descrypcyon : we must fyrst aske hym how taketh he there thys worde electe● It had ben good reason that he sholde haue declared , whyther he meane electe and chosen as our sauyour . Cryste dyd electe and chose hys chyrche and congregacyon out of the Iewis and the Gentyles , to be dedycate vnto hys seruyce / after whyche maner he fyrste elected and chose hys twelue apostles though they were not all fynally good , of whose eleccyon he sayd , ye haue not elected me but I haue elected you / and also sayd vnto them , Iohan . 15. Iohan . 6. Haue I not elected and chosen you twelue , and one of you is a deuyll : or ellys that he meane by the electe chyrche the chyrche of the fynall electes and predestynates to glory , beynge there vnto predestynate in the prescience and purpose of god before the creacyon of the worlde .

Thys poynte whyther he meane that hys hole multytude of repentynge synners●●e the tone electe chyrche or the tother , hath he not exp●e●●ed / but h●th lefte vs at large to gesse and arede vppon 〈◊〉 derke rydles after folowynge , whyche of these two 〈…〉 m●ane●h . How be it for awght that I can se hys descrypcyō●greeth wyth neyther of theym bothe●

For as for the fyrst ●y●de of elec●yon , a●ter whych Cryste hath chosen hys cat●o●●ke chy●che out o● the Iewys ●nd Gentyls to be hys c●●●che herein 〈…〉 thys kynde 〈◊〉 there penyt●ntes ●nd i●pe●ytentes ●●the . For penite●●es are accompted amonge ●he good / and in ●hys ●●y●che ●e there bothe good and badde , as our sauyour sheweth hym selfe in the parables bothe of the felde wyth good corne & cocle , Matth. 13. Matt● . 1●● and also the nette wyth fysshes good and badde / and the scrypture sheweth by the arch of Noe with bestes clene and vnclene / and Cryste wyth hys aforesayde wordes to his apostles : Iohan . 6. Haue I not chosen you twelue and one of you ys a deuyll .

Now as for the electe chyrch of predestynates yf he speke therof , as it may be verifyed in euery tyme syth it began as he must yf he speke to the purpose / then are there therin accounted not onely repentyng synners , but synners also , some that yet repente them not , & some also that neuer dyd the thyng wherof they shuld repente / as was our blessed lady whyle she lyued here , and our sauyour hym selfe also for any syn of hym self . For he was neuer penytent synner / but beyng synlesse hym selfe , paynfully payed for ours . So is not the electe chyrch all repentyng synners onely , except that eyther Cryste were no man or wer● also a synner , or els his manhed not parte of thys chyrche , but the chyrche of predestynates hedlesse . And in this I speke of that electe chyrch of predestynates , concernyng onely the congregacyon of such as shal be saued in the kynde of man . For as for to consyder angels therin , is very farre fro thys mater .

yet are there also in thys chyrche of electes many that neuer came to the fayth , but are yet enmyes there vnto / as Iewes , Saracenes , or Turkes , not yet conuerted vnto the fayth . And therfore thys electe chyrche wyll in no wyse agre wyth the dyffynycyon or descrypcyon of Tyndale . I wolde that he therfore to gyue his mater more lyght , had shewed vs as I say , which kynde of eleccyon he meaneth .

How be yt we shall gesse at hys mynde as nere as we can and make the best of hys mater / and then se whyther the beste be able to stande● He maye seme to meane by Crystes electe chyrche of hys descrypcyon● a parte of the electe chyrche of the seconde maner / that is to wyt as many therof as be repentaunt synners wyth those other condicyons that are expressed in hys des●rypcyon . For other then thys I can not deuyne what he shold meane . But then as those repentaunt synners be a parte of the chyrche predestynate / so be they a parte of thys catholyke chyrche here mylytaunt after the fy●st kynde of eleccyon , in whych are bothe good and bad / of whych hole nomber the good are the tone parte .

Thys fayth haue they wythout all respecte of theyr owne deseruynges / ye and for none other cause , then that the mercyfull trewth of god the father whyche can not lye , hath so promysed and so sworne .

I dowte not good reders but ye remember well , that all the doctryne of Crystes chyrche is full of warnynge , that no man sholde put a prowde truste and confydence in hys owne wurkes , nor onys thynke that he can of hym selfe alone without goddes gracious helpe , do any good wurke at all / and greate cause hath to fere and mystruste all hys owne workes , for vnperfyte cyrcumstaunces seldom perceyued by hym selfe . And also that in all that a man maye do he doth but hys onely dewtye / and that the beste worke were noughte worth to heuenwarde of the nature of the worke yt selfe , ne were it for the lyberall goodes of god , that lysteth so hyghly to rewarde it / and yet wolde not rewarde it so , sauynge for the passyon of hys owne sonne . All these thynges and many suche other mo be so dayly taught and preched in the chyrche / that I truste in good fayth that almoste euery good olde wyfe can tell them .

And therfore it ●●pereth well that Tyndale varyeth not wyth vs for so farre / but that he meaneth a farre forther thynge , where he sayth that the electe chyrche trusteth so vtterly to be forgeuyn all synne & mocyons vnto synne , wythout any respecte of theyr owne deseruyng / & playnely meaneth therin ( as in other places also he playnely declareth hym selfe , whyche I haue in my formar bokes proued and reproued ) not onely that men shold not nede , but also that it were synne to go about any good wurke wroughte wyth grace in fayth , to deserue any thyng toward the gettynge of full and perfayt forgeuenes .

To thys poynte cometh Tyndals holy felynge fayth , that feleth alwaye full forgyuenesse , wythout any regard or respecte of mannys owne endeuour● deserue it . Thys false felynge fayth hath Tyndale taken of Luther / when he and all the rable of theyr secte saye , that fayth of necessyte bryngeth forth good wurkes , as the frute of the tree of faith . And yet they say the good wurkes be nought worth and therby make they that tre of fayth lytell better . For what good tre can that be , wherof the good frute is noughte worth .

But Tyndale and Luther bothe lye lowde in bothe the poyntes . For bothe maye a man haue the ryght fayth idle and workelesse , and therfore dede and frutelesse . Dede I saye , not in the nature and substaunce of bylyefe a fayth / but dede as to the attaynyng of saluacyon . And also good wurkes wrought in fayth , hope , and cheryte , be very profytable towarde obtaynynge of forgyuenesse and getynge reward in heuyn / excepte the scrypture of god be false , Ecc●●●ias●icae . 3. when it sayth that as the water quencheth fyre , so doth almoyse dede auoyde synne / and except our sauyour hym selfe saye false , where he sayth , ●uc● . 11. Gyue your superfluouse substaunce in almoyse , and then lo are ye all clene . And in lyke wyse where he promyseth rewarde in heuen in sondry playne places of scrypture , M●t●● . 1● . for good wurkes done here in erth . ●uc● . 1● .

Now yf Tyndale answere , that the good workes be nothynge worth of them selfe , nor wythout fayth , as he answereth me in his answere to the thyrd boke of my dyaloge : then maye euery chylde se that he is dreuen to the harde wall , & fayne to seke a shamfull shyfte . For what thynge is awght worth of yt selfe to heuenward , without goddes grace and the greate goodnesse of god ? No fyry cheryte , though men wolde burne for goddes sake , coude deserue heuen of yt selfe wythout the lyberall goodnesse of god . For as saynt Poule sayth , Roma. 8. the passyons of thys worlde be not worthy to wynne the glory to come , that shal be shewed vppon vs .

And yf he saye that good workes be nought worth , bycause they be nought worth without fayth / so myght he as well saye the fayth were nought worth , bycause it is nought worth wythout cheryte . So that ye maye playnely se that he seketh nothynge but shyftes / whyche wyll yet serue of nought when he hath all together done .

For ye maye fynally perceyue , that though euery man maye well fere that the workes which hym selfe hath done semed they neuer so good , were yet for some lacke vppon hys parte in the doynge , so vnperfyt in the depe secret syght of god , that they were vnworthy to serue hym or be any thynge rewarded / and also that were they neuer so pure & perfyt , they were not yet worthy ●uche rewarde but of goddes lyberall goodnesse : yet is it a very false fayth and a pestylent heresye , to byleue as Tyndale here techeth vs , that god wyll saue suche as maye worke wythout any respecte or regarde vnto theyr deseruynge / as though he rought not whyther they dyd good or yll , but wyll saue all suche as hym lyste do they what they lyste , onely bycause hym lyste / and that hym selfe so lysteth for none other cause , but onely bycause he hath so promysed and sworen .

For surely , neyther is the promyse the cause as I haue in myne other boke shewed / but the goodnesse of god whych caused hym so to promyse . Nor also he hath not so sworne nor so promysed neyther , that he wyll saue man wythout any regarde of good wurkes / but hath bothe promysed & sworne the clene contrary , that but yf we wurke well yf we maye , Psalmo . 10● . or repent that we dyd not and be in purpose to do / ellys shall our fayth stande vs in lytell stede , Matthei . 25. but greately aggreue and encrease the payne of our dampnacyon . And now that hys fayth is proued very playne false and faythlesse / it is a worlde to se how ryally he runneth forth in the prayse , as though it were proued trew .

Lo what a prayse he hath made you of thys fayth , that feleth that folke sholde nede to do no good workes . How he calleth it euerlastyng lyfe to come , to the bare knowlege of that fayth that shall take away from vs all respecte and regarde of deseruynge any rewarde or thanke , the rather for any good wurkes . For yf men myght haue any suche respecte / then were it greate parell leste men wolde fall the more to do them . For other greate parell I se none , consyderynge that we be well taught to put no proude confydence in them , but referre all the thanke of them to god by whose helpe and grace we do them .

Now wote ye well that no good man can deny , but that for lacke of suche wurkes men shall be dampned , as Cryst sayth hym selfe in the gospell . Matt● . 25. And harde it were that the good nature of god beynge more redy to rewarde then to punysshe / wolde punysshe vs for the lackynge and not rewarde vs for the hauynge / namely syth hym selfe sayth in the same gospell , Matt● . 25. that he shall gyue men heuen for theyr almoyse ded .