The debellacyon of Salem and Bizance More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. This text is an enriched version of the TCP digital transcription A07695 of text S110041 in the English Short Title Catalog (STC 18081). Textual changes and metadata enrichments aim at making the text more computationally tractable, easier to read, and suitable for network-based collaborative curation by amateur and professional end users from many walks of life. The text has been tokenized and linguistically annotated with MorphAdorner. The annotation includes standard spellings that support the display of a text in a standardized format that preserves archaic forms ('loveth', 'seekest'). Textual changes aim at restoring the text the author or stationer meant to publish. This text has not been fully proofread Approx. 521 KB of XML-encoded text transcribed from 295 1-bit group-IV TIFF page images. EarlyPrint Project Evanston,IL, Notre Dame, IN, St. Louis, MO 2018 A07695 STC 18081 ESTC S110041 99845661 99845661 10575 2240942913

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Early English books online. (EEBO-TCP ; phase 1, no. A07695) Transcribed from: (Early English Books Online ; image set 10575) Images scanned from microfilm: (Early English books, 1475-1640 ; 125:03) The debellacyon of Salem and Bizance More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1478-1535. Saint German, Christopher, 1460?-1540. Salem and Bizance. ciiii; clxxiii, [4] leaves Prynted by w. Rastell in Fletestrete in saynte Bridys chyrch yarde, [[London] : the yere of our lorde. 1533] The author's name, Sir Thomas More, appears at the beginning of the preface. A partial reprinting of and a reply to: Saint German, Christopher. Salem and Bizance. Imprint from colophon, Y5v. "The secu[n]d part, the. vx. chapyter" (caption title) has separate register and foliation. With two final errata leaves. Y8 (blank) is replaced by a two-leaf address by the author signed [rum]² . Variant: lacking these leaves. Reproduction of the original in the Bodleian Library. eng Saint German, Christopher, 1460?-1540. -- Salem and Bizance. -- Early works to 1800. Catholic Church -- England -- Clergy -- Early works to 1800. Church and state -- England -- Early works to 1800. eebo The debellacyon of Salem and Bizance. More, Thomas, Sir, Saint, 1533 590 103989 842 0 0 0 0 0 80.97 D The rate of 80.97 defects per 10,000 words puts this text in the D category of texts with between 35 and 100 defects per 10,000 words. 2002-01 Assigned for keying and markup 2002-02 Keyed and coded from ProQuest page images 2002-03 Sampled and proofread 2002-03 Text and markup reviewed and edited 2002-04 Batch review (QC) and XML conversion

The debellacyon of Salem and Bizance .

THe Debella●yon of Salem and Bizans somtime two great townis , which being vnder the great turke , were by●wene Eas●er and Michelma● last passed , thys present yere of our lord , M.v. C. thyrty 〈◊〉 with a meruelouse metamorphosy● , enchaunted and turned into two englyshe men , by the wonderful inuentyue wytte and wychecrafte o● Syr Iohn Some saye the Pacifiar / and so by hym conuayed hyther in a Dialoge , to defende his dyuysyon , agaynst the Apology of Syr Thomas More knyght . But now beyng thus bytwene the sayde Mychelmas & Halowentyde nexte ensu●●●e in thys Debellacion va●●●●shed : they be fl●dde ●ense and vanyshed , & are bycome two townys agayne / wyth those old names chaūged● Salem into Hierusalem and Bizanc● into Constantinople / the tone in Grece , the tother in Syria / where they may se them that wyll , & wynne them that can . And if the Pacifier conuaye them hyther agayne , & tenne suche other townys with them , embatayled in suche dyaloges : ●yr Thomas More hath vndertaken , to put hym selfe in th aduenture alone agaynst them all . But and y● he lette them tary styll there ●he wyll not vtterly forswere it / but he is not mych mynded as yet , age now so commynge on & warynge all vnwyeldy , to go thider & geue th assaulte , to such well walled townys , wythout some suche lusty company as shal be somewhat lykly to , lepe vp a lytell more lyghtly .

The preface . Syr Thomas More to the chrysten readers .

IF any man meruayle ( as I wene some wyse menne wyll ) that euer I wold vouchsaufe to bestow any time about makynge answere to the pacyfyers dyaloge , consyderynge his faynt & his feble reasonyng : I can not in good fayth wel excuse my selfe therin . For as I sodaynly went in hande therwyth , and made it in a breyde : so whan I synnys considered how lytell nede it was , I merueyled myne owne selfe and repented to , that I hadde not regarded the boke as it was wurthy , and without any one worde let it euyn alone .

How be it good reders what one thynge or twayne specyally moued me to make answere to it , and how it happed me to fall in hand therwyth , and to spende and lese a lytell tyme about it , to make the mater the more playne vnto you : that thynge shall I shew you .

As soone as myne apologye was ones come out abrode , anone herde I worde that some were very wrothe therwyth . And yet in my mynde had there no man cause , neyther precher , nor pacyfyer , no nor none heretyke neyther . For I hadde but spoken for my selfe , and for good folke , and for the catholyke fayth / without reproch or reprofe to any mannes person , or wyllyng any man any harme that were wyllyng to mende . And who so were wyllyng to be nought styll , had cause to be wroth wyth hym self you wote well and not with me .

But all this wolde not serue me / for very wroth were they wyth me . Howbeit theyr causelesse anger dyd not gretely greue me . For I was not so farre vnreasonable , as to loke for reasonable myndes in vnreasonable menne .

But than herde I shortely that thykke & threfolde the pennys went to wurke , and answeres were a makyng , diuerse , by dyuerse very great cunnyng men . And of this trayuayle of such great mountayne hyllys , I herd myche speche made , almoste euery weke : so ferforth that at laste it was tolde me for trouth , that vnto one lytell pyece , one greate cunnynge man had made a long answere , of twelue whole shetys of paper , wryten nere to gyther and with a smale hande .

But in good fayth I coulde but laugh at that . For as for that pyece , I was very sure that the cunnyngest man that coulde come therto , neyther in tenne shetys nor in tenne querys neyther , wryte as nere as he coulde , sholde neuer answere it well .

For that pyece was the answere that in myne apalogye I make , as you se there vnto certayne sermons , wherin my dyaloge was towched for wrytynge agaynst Tyndals false translacyon . And wherin was also defended agaynst my confutacyon , Tyndals wyse chapyter , in which agaynst my dyaloge he laboreth to proue that the worde was before the chyrche / & in all his chapyter neuer towcheth the poynt / and the sermon that defended hym , walketh as wyde as he .

It was tolde me as I say that answere was made to that place / and what shyfte there was founde to the remanaunt , that coulde I not here . But to the fyrst poynt I herde saye that there was deuysed , ' that where as I reherse that the precher spake of poysoned brede , I rehersed hym wrong . For he spake but of moulden brede . And this pyece it was tolde me that in that new answere it was reasoned at length , & set forth very luste●y

But come the boke abrode onys , I shall sone abate that corage . For fyrst syth he taketh recorde that he sayd but mouldy brede : yf I brynge wytnesse also that he said poysoned bred , than can his wytnesse stande hym in none other stede , but for to proue for hym that he sayd bothe .

Secundly shall I proue that he sayd poysened brede , by such meanes that men shall se by reason , that though the tother were possyble : yet was it farre vnlykely .

Finally shal I ferther proue , that though the man had sayd not poysened brede but onely moulden brede : yet shall I proue I saye , that as the case stode , that same not poysened brede but moulden brede , was yet for all that a very poysened worde .

Heryng therfore that this gaye boke was made of the .xii. shetys of paper , & lacked but ouerloking , & that many mo were in hand the shortly shold come out : lyke as an husband , whose wife were in her trauayle , herkeneth euery hande whyle , and fayne wold here good tydynges : so syth I so myche herde of so sore trauayle of so many , so cunnynge , aboute dyuerse answeres , I longed of theyr longe laboure to se some good spede , and some of those fayre babes borne that they trauayled on .

And when these great hyllys had thus trauailed longe , from the weke after Ester tyll as myche afore Myche●mas : the good houre came on as god wold , the one was broughte a bed , with sore labour at laste deliuered of a dede mouse . The moder is yet but grene good soule , & hath nede of good kepyng : women wote what caudell serueth agaynst her after throwes .

Now after that the boke was out and came into myne handes / and that I sawe the maner and the fashyon therof : two thynges onely moued me to wryte and medle wyth yt .

One that I sawe therin folowed and pursewed , the selfe same shrewed malicyouse intent that was purposed in his fyrst boke of diuysyon / that is to wyt to make th ordynaryes with fere of slaunder and oloquye , seue theyr dutyes vndone and lette heretyques alone / and ouer that wyth an euyl newe chaunge of good old lawes , labour to putte heretyques in corage , and therby decaye the fayth .

This was in dede the very specyall poynte that made me wryte yet agayne . And yet founde I so lytle reason in hys reasonynge , that me thought yt sholde not nede . For thys wyste I very well , that who so euer had wyt , and wold conferre and compare to gether , the wordes of hys answere wyth the wordes of myne Apologye , sholde sone perceyue that hys answeres were euyn very dull and dede .

But thenne was there a nother thynge that I consydered in yt / whyche poynte vnprouyded for , myghte soon deceyue the reader . For all be yt the pacyfyer hath in some places put in myne owne wordes where yt pleased hym : yet hathe he for the moste parte vsed a prety crafte , to mysse reherse my mater and leue my wordes oute . Ye and besydes this , the man hath in some places lefte oute some of his owne , & mysse rehersed them / to make the reader wene , that in the reprouynge theym , I hadde wryten wronge .

Now had I supposed to remedy those thingꝭ , & make him an answere in thre or foure leues , wyth onely poyntynge the reader to the places , wyth wrytynge in what lefe he shold fynde the mater . For the wordis ones redde : the trouthe sholde shewe yt selfe .

But whyle I was thus mynded and went there about : hys answere in his dialoge had founden such a way wyth walkynge to & fro , kepynge no maner order , and therwyth makynge me seke so longe for some one place , that I saw wel I shold soner answere hym all new , then fynde out for many thynges the place that I sholde seke for .

I made therfore in few days● this answere that you se. And some suche places yet as I had happed to finde , I haue remytted the reader vnto in myne apologye / where for his redye findyng , I haue nombred him●the leaf . And yet haue I for some folke done somwhat more to . For I se wel surely many men are nowe a dayes so delycate in readynge , and so lothe to labour , that they fare in other bokes as women fare with theyr primer , which though they be content to saye some tyme the fyftene psalmys , & ouer that the psalmys of the passyon to , yf they fynde them al fayre lette out in order at length : yet wyll they rather leue theym all vn to , then turne backe to seke theym out in other partyes of theyr prymer .

And therfore leste some readers myghte happe in this boke to do the same : some places of th apologye myche necessarye and not longe , that wyth myche sekynge I fortuned to fynd out , to ease the reders labour , & make all open vnto hym , I haue put in also , into myne answere here . Ye and yet ouer thys in the thynges of moste weyghte , I haue put into thys boke hys owne wordes to . And so shall you good readers wythout any payne of sekynge , haue all the mate● playn and open afore your yien , that ye shal well se that I loue the lyght , no lesse thenne thys pacyfyer wolde fayne walke in the darke . For as the darke is in this mater all hys auauntage : euen so ys veryly the lyghte in lyke wyse myne .

And where as there are some that commende his answere , for the compendyouse breuite therof and shortnesse : I nothinge therin enuye the mannes prayse . For lyke as no man can make a shorter course then he that lacketh both hys legges : so can no man make a shorter boke than he that lacketh as wel wordes as mater . And yet when by the places conferred well to gether , the feblenesse of his answere shall appere : then shall he lese the prayse of shortnesse to . For when yt shall wel be sene , that he sayth nothyng to the purpose : then shall eu●ry wise man thynke hys boke to longe by all to gether . And that ye may wel perceyue that so it is in dede , let vs now leue of the preface and fall vnto the mater .

The fyrste chapyter .

IN his fyrste chapyter he toucheth thre thinges . One that I haue deceyued hys hope , in that I haue not in myne apologye dyuysed some conuenyent wayes to reforme and redresse the dyuysyon betwene the temporaltye and the spyrytualty , to whyche poynte I wyll answere after in the touchyng of hys seconde chapyter . The tother poynt is , that syth he neuer found any faute in any worke of myne , of whyche for other ●ettis he neuer redde none : he merueleth mych therfore that I make such obieccyon agaynste his / and namely in that worke whych I wolde name an apologye , whyche name sygnyfyeth as he sayth an answere or a defence .

Now where this good man declareth what thynge an Apologye ys , and sayth that yt is an answere or a defence / for whych cause he the more meruaileth , that I wold in that boke wryte agaynste any treatyse of hys , who neuer hadde any thynge wryten against any worke of myn / as though that therfore my wrytynge agaynste his worke wold in no wise agre with the name of my boke : I myghte answere hym that the touchynge of his boke , was but an incident as I shew in the .100 . leaf of my sayde boke , and not my pryncypall mater / and therfore of many noughty thynges I touche there but a fewe , and suche as were in no wyse to be dissembled .

But now meruaile I myche more , wherfore he shold so meruayle , that I wold in the worke which I name an answere or a defence , wryte agaynst his worke which nothynge wrote agaynst myn . For if the thynge that I wryte agaynst his wordes , be an answere or a defence in dede : thenne though it be not a defence for my self , yet is the cause of all his meruayle gone . For in that boke that is called myne apologye , yt is not requyred by the nature of the name , that yt be any answere or defence for myne owne selfe at all : but if suffyceth that yt be of myne owne makynge an answere or defence for some other .

And as these titles Caluicium Sinccii , Moria Erasmi , be names conuenyent for those bokes of theyres , though the maters in those bokes sygnifyed by those names do not onely pertein vnto Sinecius & Erasmus , or peraduenture to neyther of theym both at al : so may my boke well bere the name of an answere or a defence , yf it be an answere or a defence made by me , though yt were all made for other folke , and not one pyece therof made for me .

So is yt now that myne apology is an answere and a defence , not onely for my formare bokes , wherin the new brethern began to fynde certayn fa●tes / but ouer that in the self same parte wherin I touche the boke of dyuysyon , it is an answere and a defence for many good worshyppefull folke , agaynst the malycyouse slaunder and obloquye so generally sette forth , with so many salse some sayes , in that sedycyouse boke .

The selfe same pyece ys also an answere and a defence , of the very good olde and longe approued lawes , bothe of thys realme and of the whole corps of chrystendome / which lawes thys pacyfyer in his boke of dyuysyon , to th encoragynge of heretyques and parell of the catholyque faythe , wyth warme wordes & colde reasons oppugneth .

And finally for as myche as many good vertuouse folke began vpon that yll boke of dyuysyon to haue a ryght euyl opinyon of the maker him selfe `whom I for his playne confessyon of the trew faith , toke & take yet for a man good & catholike : therfore I in many places of myne apology , lay the faute fro the man hym self , vnto some wyly shrewes that deceyued hym . And so was myne apologye an answere also an a defence , for the person of the pacyfyer hym selfe .

& And where he goeth about nowe for to confute yt : there ys not in all the remanaunt of hys answere one pyece that any thyng appeyreth any poynte of myne Apologye . How be yt of trouthe in thys poynte he goeth moste nere me . For thys answere hathe he made in suche maner wyse , that I shall haue nowe myche more a do then I than hadde , to make any wyse man wene that euer hym selfe ment well .

And yet wyll I not leue yt so / but styll wyll putte it from hym to some false wyly shrewes , though the man do as he dothe , saye contrarye therto hym selfe .

And the more the man denieth that thynge hym selfe : the more he maketh yt lykely to be trew . For when in the thynges that so playne appere so nought , he rather taketh the mater all whole vppon hym , then suffreth any parte to be layed from hym , but if the man haue an importune pryde , as by goddes grace he hath not : elles is yt a sure sygne and a good token , that he is suche a good symple soule as soone may be deceyued / while we se that his wit serueth hym no better , but that he wolde rather appere malycyouse then vnwyse .

But nowe that I haue proued hym that the name of Apologye , may serue very well for euery pyece of my boke : nowe wyll I somwhat se how the maters of his boke agree well wyth the name therof . I mean not here hys boke of dyuysyon . For of that boke the name and the mater agree to gether well / but I meane of hys newe boke that we be nowe in hande wyth , whyche boke as appereth in the fyrste fronte of the fyrst leaf ys named Salem and Bizance . And therin of an hundred and syx leues ( for so many be in the boke ) there are scante fully fyftene , that any thynge agree wyth the name .

Nowe yf he wyll saye that the communycacyon betwene Salem and Bizance , ys but a bye mater besyde , and that all the remanaunt bytwene theyre talkynges , ys the very boke : thanne ys yt worse / for then hathe hys booke neuer a name at all .

More ouer yf yt so were : thenne sholde none of the thre laste chapyters bere the names that they do / that is to wytte the .xxii. the .xxiii. and the .xxiiii. chapyter / but lyke wyse as he calleth the begynnyng of theyr communycacyon byfore hys mater , an introduccyon : so sholde he haue called those thre chapyters after his mater , an extraduccyon .

And yet I wote not well what I maye saye therof . For in the begynnynge of the boke , theyre fyrste communycacyon ys called an introduccyon / and so ys it intyteled vpon the leuys . And yet in the very ende of that introduccyon byfore the fyrst chapyter , the man sayeth hym selfe in the persone of Bizance / that he hathe made as yet none introduccyon at all . What he meaneth by thys can I not tell / but yf he meane to make men wene that Salem and Bizance were two Englyshe men in dede , and spake those wordes them selfe wythout any worde of hys .

But nowe bycause he sheweth hym selfe so connynge in greke wordes , that vppon thys worde apologye , he fyndeth the afore sayde faute wyth myne apology , as though I were ouersene and obserued not the nature of an Apology : lette vs se howe well hym selfe that in the begynnynge calleth hys booke a dyaloge , obserueth the nature and propertye of a dyaloge .

In the thyrd lefe when Salem sheweth him self desyrouse to se the pacifyers answere : Bizance answereth : I shall cause yt to be wryten here after in this dyaloge worde for worde , as yt is come to my handes / and then thou shalt wyth good wyll haue yt . And thou shalt vnderstande that hys answere begynneth at the nexte chapyter hereafter ensuynge , and contynueth to the place where I shall shewe the that yt endeth .

Consyder good readers that this introduccyon he doth not bryng in , as a rehersal of a communicacyon hadde byfore , but as a communycacyon present . And thenne lette hym shewe me where euer he hathe herde in hys lyfe any two men in theyre talkynge to gether , diuyde theyr present communycacyon into chapytres . This is a poynte not onely so farre fro the nature of a dialoge , but also from al reason , that a very chylde wolde not I wene haue handeled the thynge so chyldyshely

Also that Bizance telleth Salem that the pacyfyers answere shall be wryten into theyr dyaloge , that is to wyt to theyr communycacyon : who sawe euer the lyke ? who sawe euer any thyng wryten into a communycacyon , and wrytyng planted in among wordes spoken .

And what reason hath yt to tell hym where aboute in theyr communycacyon , the pacifyers wordes shal begynne and where they shall ende● as though Salem talkyng wyth . Bizance , hadde not the wyt to perceyue when Bizance speketh hym self and when he redeth hym the pacyfyers wordes wryten .

Also what a straunge monstrose beste maketh Bizance to Salem the pacifiers answere , whyle he maketh as thoughe Salem coulde neyther perceyue the hed nor the tayle , but yf hym selfe poynted hym to them both with a stycke

More ouer where as Bizance sayth he wyll wryte it in to theyr dialoge , that is to wyt into theyr present● talkynge as soone as it cometh to his handes , so that at that word he had it not yet / and than he wryteth it in , euyn by and by , and neyther goeth any where to fette it , nor maketh any man come thyther to hym to bryng it : is not this proprely deuysed ?

Than stand they both styll there as they fyrste mete / and that is in the strete by lykelyhed ( for there folke most comenly mete , that mete at aduenture as they do ) and there is all the answere perused / the readynge wherof standeth them at the lest foure or fyue howres I trow . How be it there I was a lytell ouersene . For they stande not there styll aboute the readynge / but there stande they styll both twayne all the whyle that Byzance is as you se into theyr talkynge and communicacyon wrytynge it . And that is but yf Bizance wryte fast , I warraunt the wurke of a weke . Now than at the wekes ende whan all the .xxi. chapyters are wryten : Bizance in the .xxii. chapyter geueth Salem warnynge , that there is the answere of the pacyfyer ended . And this was by the pacifier fole prudently deuysed . For ellys wolde Salem wene that theyr owne talkynge together in the tother thre chapyters by mouth , had ben styll nothynge ellys but onely Bizances wrytynge / and els wold also Salem haue thought that his owne wordes exhortacyō agaynst the great turke , and his own rehersynge of that exposycyon of the apocalyps , had bene styll the pacyfyers wordis agaynst myne apology .

And finally in the very ende to shew that he could write , not in onely prose : he endeth all the whole booke in this wyse with a gloryouse ryme , And thus the gloryonse trynite , haue in his kepyng bothe the and me / and maketh Bizance praye for no mo but for theym two , after the maner of the good manne ●ryme , a mustarde maker in Cambrydge , that was wont to pray for hym self and his wyfe & his chyld , & grace to make good mustarde & no more .

And thus you se good readers that where this man is so cunning in greke wordis , that he can shortely fynd the fawt where I fayle in the nature of an apologye : hym selfe in his own dyaloge so well conserueth the propertye of a dialoge , & expresseth it so naturally , that it could neuer be done more naturally , not though he that wrote it were euyn a very naturall in dede .

But where he semeth to haue meruayled whan he redde myne apology , that I wolde make obieccyons agaynst his wurke , whyle he neuer wrote any thynge agaynste no booke of myne : in good fayth yf he had , I wolde neuer haue bene the more hasty , but somwhat peraduenture the lesse , leste it myghte haue semed that some desyre of reuengynge myne owne dyspleasure , had excyted me therto / where as nowe no worldely profyte growynge to me thereby , there is mych lesse cause for any good man to thynke , that I wolde take the labour to wryte agaynst a wurke I wyst not whose , but yf that it had at the leste wyse semed to my selfe , that there were suche thynges therin as god wold geue me thanke , to geue men warnynge to be well ware of them .

And where he sayeth he wyll not touch euery thyng partycularly , but take an other order all out of order in answerynge therunto : I can not let him in his own boke to vse what order that beste maye serue his purpose . But me thought and yet thynke , that I my selfe toke a very playne open way , whan the chapyters of his whiche I wold answere to , I perused al waye euery thynge in order . Whiche order while he foloweth not with me : how you shall fynd it , your self shall good reders iudge vpon the ende . But yet in the meane whyle at the fyrste face , it semeth not that wyth lepynge out of order , he meaneth to make you the mater very playne .

Nor all , he sayth he wyll not answere neyther / for auoydynge of tedyousnes . And of trouth yf he haue ( as he semeth to signyfye ) any other bysynesse : I thynke it be somwhat tedyouse to hym to answere all to gether .

Finally where he saith that he supposeth to make it appere as by hys answeres , and by his consideracyons and his declaracyons , that myne obieccyons are lytell to be pondered : fyrste for his argumentes made agaynste the lawes , wherby the fayth is preserued , and heresyes kept vnder , those argumentes all his answeres wyll neuer be able to mayntayne And as to the remanaunt , in good faith the better that he maye make you his innocent mynde appere , the gladder a greate deale wyll I be therof / nor nothynge purpose I therin by thys present booke to do ferther , than to make you clerely perceyue , that how well so euer hym selfe here declare hys good menyng , my selfe was not causeles there moued to fynd fawte in his wrytynge .

The .ii. chapyter .

IN the .ii. chapyter begynnynge in the fyfth lefe , he bryngeth forth the fyrste consyderacyon , whiche is that I in the 89. leaf of myne apology confesse that murmur and discensyon agaynst the clergye was than all redy farre gone onwarde in hys vnhappy iourney / & that afterwarde in the .106 . leaf of the same boke , I bryng in a very darke sentence , wherby it appereth that I mene that the dyspleasure & grudge bytwene them is in dede neyther so greate as he maketh it / and yet growen to so greate as it is , but euyn now of late . But who so loke there in that place , shall I suppose fynde it nothynge darke / but yf it be suche a man as lyste not to vnderstande it .

And where I saye there , that this dyuysion such as it is , whyche is no thynge such as this man maketh it , is not growen to so greate as it is , but synnys that Tyndalys bookes and Frythys , and frere Barons , bygan to go abrode : therin he wold seme to saye the contrary , & byddeth me loke better vppon the mater , and I shall fynde it otherwyse . And in dede with better lokyng theron , I fynd it somwhat otherwyse . For I fynde the tyme of such encreace as I speke of , mych shorter than I there assygne , & that by a greate deale . For it was growen the greater by th occasyon of the selfe same boke of the diuysyon , though the maker as hym selfe sayth and as I truste to , intended it not of purpose . And therfore where he saith that sith I confesse that there was diuysyon at the tyme of the makynge of myne apologye , it appereth that I haue no mynde to haue it ceaced , bycause that I seke not out the causes and deuise the remedyes : veryly good readers I neuer toke & accompted my self for a man mete & able to make a reformacyon , of such two great partes as the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye of this whole realme be . And veryly yf I knewe some suche great causes as thys man setteth forth for trewe , whych I knowe for false / and that I than knewe the wayes to reforme them to : I wolde vse other wayes towarde it , than sedycyouse slaunderouse bookes . For as I haue expressely declared in myne apologye , neyther neuer dyd I , nor neuer entende to do , put out abrode in prente vnder colour of reformacyon , fawtes that were hatefull and odyouse to here , eyther of the tone parte or of the tother / and specyally so many at onys , as yf they were all trewe , were not all lykely to be remedyed at ones / but the more parte for the whyle remaynynge lytell remedyed , shold● but make eyther parte to the other more odyouse , and bothe partes more infamouse , amonge suche other ( yf any suche any where be ) as wold be gladde and reioyce to here mych euyl spoken of them bothe .

And thys I saye all though that all were trewe . And now wolde I mych lesse vse that maner in makyng rehersall of those thynges , wherof many be false and vntrew , and many other also very tryfeles / & the very chyefe thynges that thys pacyfyer desyreth to haue reformed , be lawes all redy well made , whyche he wold haue made wurse . For where they haue ben by wyse men well deuysed for the repressyng of heresyes , some by perleament in thys realme , some by the generall counsayle of chrystendome : those deuyseth he so to be chaunged now , as the chaunge whyche he desyreth , though by goddes grace he desyreth not that it so shold , yet out of dowte in dede sholde turne to th encoragynge of heretykes and encreace of heresyes , wyth the mynysshement and decaye of the catholyke chrysten fayth . wherupon wold not fayle whych almyghty god kepe from vs , his greuouse indygnacyon vpon vs . And therfore god kepe vs from suche reformacyons .

Now to laye to me therfore as a greate fawte , that I blame his boke in those vntrew some sayes , that vnder colour of ceacynge dyuysyon , excyte and set forth dyuysyon , but yf my selfe coulde ceace it . Whan suche bookes make it : is myche lyke as yf he wold say that there ought no man to blame hym that wolde burne vp a nother mannes howse , but he that wolde buylde it agayne .

And therfore with thys good reason of his , be putteth me in remembraunce of an answere , that a man of myne made ones myche after the same fashyon . I had sometyme one with me called Clyffe , a man as wel knowen as mayster Henry Patenson . This Clyffe hadde bene many yeres mad / but age had taken from hym the rage , so that he was metely well waxen harmlesse among folke . In to Clyffes hed came there some tyme in his madnesse such imagynacyons agaynst images , as these heretykes haue in theyr sadnesse . For lyke as some of them whych after fledde and ranne awaye , and some fell to thefte and were caught , pulled down of late vpon London brydge thinmage of the blessed martyr saint Thomas : so Clyffe vpon the same brydge vppon a tyme fyll in talkynge vnto an image of our blessed lady / and after suche blasphemyes as the deuyll putte than in hys mouth , and now a dayes bloweth out by the mouthes of many heretykes , whyche seme they neuer so sad , be yet more madde than he : he sette hande vppon the chylde in her arme and there brake of the necke . And afterwarde whan honest men , dwellers vppon the brydge , came home to myne howse and there blamed Clyffe before me , and asked hym wherfore he brake of the chyldys necke in our ladys arme : whan Clyffe hadde herde them , he began to loke well and erenestly vpon them / and lyke a man of sadnesse and grauyte , he asked theym , tell me ●hys amonge you there , haue you not yet sett on hys hed agayne ? No ꝙ they we can not . No ꝙ Clyffe by the masse it is the more shame for you . Why speke you to me of it than ?

And euyn thus answereth me now thys good man / whyche where hys sedycyouse some sayes set forth diuysyon , and breke the chyldys necke rekeneth it a shame for me to fynde any fawte wyth hym for the brekynge but yf my selfe coulde glew it together agayne .

And therfore where he sayth that I sholde haue proued , that all the causes that he layeth as causes of dyuysyon , be no causes of dyuysyon , or ellys I sholde haue deuysed the remedyes : albe it I haue answered hym therin all redy , yet thys I saye therin ferther , that I haue proued wel & clerely , that the very chyef cause that he sayeth , is layd very vntrewly / that is to wytte the mysse handelyng the people to theyr destruccyon vppon suspycyon of heresye . Whyche cause yf it were as trewe as yt ys false , were so weyghty , that it were well wurthy to be layde for a mater of dyuysyon . And whyle it is not trewe : yet by suche kookes beynge blowen aboute in euery parte of the realme for trewe , maye well mysse happe to make a dyuysyon / whyle the dwellers in euery quarter aboute by credence geuen to the booke , may at the fyrste face wene , that though it be not so there as they dwell them selfe , yet wene I saye that it were so in al other places . Wherof though they shall by leysoure perceyue the contrary wyth serche : yet they that aske no ferther questyon , shall byleue it styll . And so a rumour onys begonne and spredde abrode , ys not after soone remoued

Nowe as for hys other causes of thys dyuysyon : dyuerse● I haue towched and shewed suffycyentely that they be not suffycyent . But as for me to peruse hys whole booke of dyuysyon thorow , was no parte of my purpose . For yf those thynges that I dyd towche hadde semed to me tollerable : I wolde in good faythe haue bene lothe to haue towched theym eyther .

In whyche whyle with hys consideracyons and declaracyons he goeth about now to shew that he than ment none harme : I wyll not therin mych hynder hym , but be gladde rather to forther hym in th excuse of hys menynge and so dyd I as I haue sayd euyn in myne apologye to . But though I be glad to excuse his own mynde in the menyng : yet can I not excuse his vnwyse folowynge of false wyly counsayle in the doynge .

The .iii. chapyter .

THe .iii. chapyter conteynyng hys second consyderacyon , rede and consyder it who so lyste / for I can se nothynge in it to be consydered by me . For in effecte in conteyneth no thynge ellys , but that he wolde the clergye shold as myche as they may auoyde all accasyon of murmure and grudge / of the temporaltye towarde them , but yf it be pharysaycal grudge ye and though the dede that they sholde forbere were good / in whych poynt bycause that one poynt wolde waxe a songe worke , I wyll fall in no dyspycyons . But in as farforth as he geueth any man good counsayle and wysheth all thynge well : so farforth shall he and I not varye / but and he call me to hym , I wyll syt and pray for yt wyth hym .

But yet where he sayth in th ende of the chapiter , that I endeuour my selfe very myche , to oppresse al them that wyll shew suche thynges of the spyrytualtye : in dede some suche as haue made suche lyes , I haue tolde yt theym . But as for any oppressyon let hym proue one , and let hym call that one .xx. And if he can ꝓue none , as I wote well he can not : then good reders let hym be beleued therafter .

More ouer where he sayth that I in my mynde proue yt an intollerable defaute in the people for mysse iudgynge the clergy , where as I thinke they haue no cause so to do / and that therin . I leue theym , as though all the whole cause and pryncypall defaute , were in the temporaltye , wherin he sayth that my iugement is farre deceyued : in this poynte good reder he sayth somwhat to me yf he sayde trew . And sure yf he thought that he wrote herein trewe / then wysedome wolde he sholde haue wryten myne owne wordes in . And yf he fered that yt wolde be founden false : then honestye wolde that he sholde haue leste hys owne wordes oute . But veryly good readers and he seke thys seuen yere , he shall in all myne apologye fynde you no suche wordes of myne . But he shall fynde farre the contrarye . For I do there I wote well , in suche places as I shewe that men were vnreasonable that wolde take thys thynge or that thynge ( suche as I reherse of hys bryngynge forthe ) for any reasonable cause of dyuysyon : there I saye in those places that the pacyfyer mysse sayeth the people , and that the people be myche more reasonable that to take yt so . And therfore here he belyeth me agayne .

And also let hym shewe you forth any one place , in whyche I say that all the whole faute or the pryncypal faute eyther , is in the temporaltye / and than byleue hym the better in a nother mater . And in the meane whyle tyll he brynge it forthe , or ellys that you fynde yt your self : ye may with reason , at the lest wyse in this mater byleue me better thenne hym / and I wil neuer desyre you to byleue me one day lenger . For I haue neyther sayde the pryncypall faute in the tone nor the tother . And thus hath he made you of me thre lyes in one chapyter .

The .iiii. chapyter .

IN his .iiii. chapyter begynnyng in the .viii. leaf , he fyrst sheweth a diuersyte betwene the sample that I put in the .94 . leaf of myne appologye , of a pacyfyer betwene a man and hys wyfe , and the thyng that I there resemble it vnto / that is to wytte hys owne boke , that maketh a lyke pacifycacyon betwene the temporaltye and spyrytualtye .

But surely the dyfference that he putteth semeth to my pore wyt greatly to a payre his parte . For yf it be as he sayth yt is , that where as the husbande wold be loth to heare any euyl spoken of his wyfe , and therfore wil can suche a pacyfyer no thanke , that wyll tell hym suche tales of her before his neyghbours : the temporaltye wyll be glad to heare harme spoken of the spyrytualtye : then was yt so myche the worse done , to wryte openly to the temporaltye suche thynges of the spyrytualtye , to fede and nuryshe any suche euyll delyte : or openly to the spyritualtye , beynge as he sayde lyke wyse affectyonate , the fautes of the temporaltye eyther .

Howe be yt I can not in good fayth saye , but yf I shold belye hym , that on that syde wyllyngely he greatly passed his boundes / but of ouersyght vnware , he hath in some thynges slaundered the temporalty to .

Then sheweth he farther wherfore he wrote those thynges in englyshe , though Iohn Gerson wrote theym but in laten / wherin to say the trouth , he layeth a cause suffycyent wherfore that Iohn Gerson wrote them in latyne . But whyther he laye cause suffycyent wherfore hym selfe shold not rather haue let them alone then wryte them in englishe , agaynst the counsayle of Iohn Gerson hym selfe as I touched in myne apology : that I leue your self good reades to consyder . For I wil not myche stryue agaynste his excuse . For I greatly shall not nede I thinke , syth al his excuse amounteth to no more , but that he ment that some laye men redynge the prestes fautes in englishe , myght put them in remembraunce to mende them / specially bycause he sayth euen in the same chapiter a litle afore , that the temporaltye so myche delyteth to here of theym .

Then goth he farther in the same chapiter / & where as in his boke of the dyuisyon , he wold haue semed betwene the temporaltye and the spyrytualtie to haue spoken indifferently , & to haue told them theyr fautes on both parti●●gally : here in the second syde of the x. leaf , he telleth vs the cause wherfore he dyd not so , & saith in this wise .

I haue spoken of defautes and abuses in the spyrytualtye , more then of defautes in the temporaltye / bycause the spyrytualte oughte to be the gyders and gyuers of lyghte by theyre doctryne & good examples to the temporalty : & if theyr light be derkenes , where shall the temporaltie then fetche theyr lyghter ? trewly I wote not where . And I doute that then they both shall walke styl in derkenes . And therfore yt is that Iohn Chrysostome sayth vppon Matthew the xxi . chapyter . That yf prestehode be holle & sound , all the chyrch florysheth : and yf yt be corrupte , the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth also and vanyssheth away . Lette thye therfore as to thys poynt be the fynall conclusyon for thys tyme , that who so euer proueth defautes to be in the temporaltye , he proueth also defautes to reygne in the spyritualty : & therefore the defautes in the temporaltye wyl neuer be auoyded , tyll the defautes in the spyrytualtye be fyrste reformed : and therfore haue I fyrste spoken of some defautes that be in the spyrytualtye .

Surely good readers I like wel these wordes . For they be very good & they proue very well , & very trew yt is / nor I ueuer sayd the contrary , but haue in myne apologye playnely sayd the same , that euery faute in a spyrituall man ( though the thyng were of it self al one , is yet by the difference of the person , farre worse and more ody●ouse both to god and man , then yt ys in a temporall man . But yet the worse that euery pryuate spyrytuall mannes faute is , so myche is yt the more harme to dyffame the corps of the spyritualtye openly in the face of the temporaltye , in suche maner as the boke of dyuysyon doth / of whyche I haue proued those that are weyghtye false , and could ( yf I wold now lese tyme about yt whyle that that I haue touched ys suffycyent ) shewe the substaunce of al the remanaunt to haue lytle substaunce to .

And therfore the wordes of saynt Chrysostome whyche he sayeth for his boke , were in part the very cause that made me wryte agaynste hys boke . For surely as saynte Chrysostome sayth , yf the presthed be corrupt , the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth and vanisheth away / whyche is wythoute any questyon very trouth for though saynt Chrystome had neuer sayde it , our sauyour sayth as myche hym selfe : ye be ( sayth he to the clergye ) the salte of the erthe , & if the salt waxe ones freshe and we ryshe , wherin shal any thyng be well seasoned ? And you be the light of the worlde . And therfore yf the lyghte that ys in the worlde , be darke : howe darke shall then the darkenes be yt selfe ?

But now say I syth that the prestehed beyng corrupted , yt muste nedes folowe that the fayth and vertue of the people fadeth and vanysheth awaye / and vppon Chrystes wordes yt muste folowe that yf the spyritualtye be nought , the temporaltye muste nedes then be worse than they : theruppon I conclude vppon the tother syde agaynste the pacyfyers boke , that syth this realme hath ( as god be thanked in dede yt hath ) as good & as faithfull temporalty , & ( though there be a fewe false brethern in a great multitude of a trew catholike men ) as hath for the quantite any other countrey cristened , it must nedes , I say folow that the clergy , though it haue some such false noughtye brethern to , is not in suche sore maner corrupted , as the boke of diuysyon goth about to make men wene / but as good for theyr part as the temporaltie for theyrs .

A therfore in lyke wyse I saye , that vppon the selfe same wordes of saynt Chrysostome and of our sauyour Chryste : the sayde boke of the dyuysyon in dyffamynge the spyrytualtie , diffameth the temporaltye myche more / whyche is the thynge that as I sayde semeth me neyther honorable nor profytable , in open prented bokes , for any englyshe man to do / nor veryly I thynke the maker wold not haue done , yf he then hadde thought so farre .

But now goth he farther and sayth .

And though mayster More can not denye these fawtes . ( I suppose you haue herde me denye suche as were the chyefe and proued them I wene vntrewe ) yet all the amendementes that he aleyth in hys Apologye is onely in punyshement of heresyes , as ys s●●● byfore : wherunto he specyally moueth the ordynaryes not to be slacke nor the more remysse for fe●e ●f enyll wordes and sclaunder of the people . And yf they be therfore the more ●lacke in callynge attachynge a●d examynynge , and farther orderynge of heretyques : he sayeth god wyll not fayle to make fall in theyr neckes the double slaunder of that , fro whens they fled . And in a nother place he moueth the temporaltye to ioyn wyth the spyrytualtye eche with other lonyngly to represse and kepe vnder those vngracyouse folke , by whom he meaneth heretykes Vppon whyche mocyon I shall somwhat shewe my mynde , as hereafter foloweth in the nexte chapyter .

Here he complayneth agayn that I deuyse no remedyes , as though the whole prouysyon for all thynge laye vppon myn hande . I do somewhat for my parte , when I praye god to geue vs al the grace spiritual & temporall bothe , to kepe well and obserue suche prouysyons as god hathe gyuen good men the grace to make all redye . For yf we kepe theym well : I wene there are me●ely many made . And yf we breke the olde : so wil we by likelihed breke these a● wel , that he wold haue me now dyuyse and studye newe . And somewhat I do better for my parte , whyle I labour to haue the good olde prouysyons kepte , than thys pacyfyer dothe for hys , whyle he laboreth to haue them broken , and namely those lawes that are of the very best , and made for the fayth agaynste heresyes .

But then laboureth he as me thinketh , to make the bretherne angry with me / and reherseth and inculketh into theyr eares , that I exhorte both the spyrytualty & the temporaltye to , those to whome the mater apperteyneth , not to be any thynge the more slacke in repressynge of heresyes , for any fere of infamye .

Surely good readers what so euer I wrote in that behalfe : I will requyre euery man to haue yt euyn here / for wryten and repeted agayn . For when we se that the wordes of his wrytynge , whych I haue in myne Apologye rehersed you , how well so euer he ment therin ( as I truste he ment but wel ) haue yet that playn open apparaunce in them , that they were wel lykely to put such as shold se to the repressyng of heresyes , in doute and fere of infamy , & to be had among the peple as folke suspect of missehādeling good folke and of crueltye : I reken yt the parte of euery good man , that any zele hath to the conseruacyon of the catholyque fayth , to encorage them on the tother side , to the doyeng of theyr dutye therin / and not to sette the respecte of theyr estymacyon amonge men ( whyche yet they shall also mych the better conserue among all the people saue those few that are nought ) byfore the sauynge of theyr soules , and kepynge the fauour of god : namely sythe the kepynge of people from heresyes and puttynge the scabbed heretyques oute of the clene flocke , is one of the specyall thynges that th apostle gaue the bysshoppe warnynge of . Let hym fynde oute any worde of myne , where with I wolde any harme to any man that wolde amende , and then let hym laye yt to me . And who so euer entendeth neuer to be good : I am wel content that the pacyfyer make hym not my frende .

The fyfth chapytre .

IN the fyfth chapiter he toucheth punyshement of heresyes , & dyuydeth the mater into foure sortes of people / wherin for as mych as he nothynge sayeth that toucheth me , I let them passe all foure .

After those .iiii. sortes perused : he speketh of the fyfth , whyche he very ernestly dysprayseth , that are those whyche take and hold contrary wayes / to the trewe fayth in dede . But then in that part he myche misse lyketh in me , bothe that I call them any euyll name , as the noughty bretherne or heretyque bretherne , and also that I call theym good namys to , as the blessed bretherne and euan gelycall bretherne .

And for the fyrst in callynge them any suche euyll names : he sayth I do not as I wolde be done to / as appereth he sayeth in myne apologye . ● Surely I suppose he maye therin fynde , that I force not what suche as they be call me . And I can wryte no worse worde by theym I wote well , then they wryte many by me .

And to as for to geue euyll names to suche folke as are so euyll in dede : lette hym call yt raylynge at hys pleasure / but howe so euer yt be in me . I wote well that some other haue done so , that yet were no raylours / excepte saynte Poule were a raylour , when he called hys carleshe kepers dogges , & when he called the chyef preste a whyted wal , whych was a spyghtful word among them / & except saint Policarpus rayled , when he calleth the heretike Ma●cyon the deuyls eldeste son , & excepte our souyour rayled , when he called the scribes & the pharysyes hyprocytes .

But then that I cal them agayn good names : this thynge lo this good man rekeneth a very monstrouse maner , to make theym both good and badde . But this is a monstre lo of euery manny● makynge . For so call not I them alone , but the whole people to , in such maner of spekynge as euery man vseth , when he calleth one self noughty lad , both a shrewd boy and a good sonne / the tone in the proper symple speche , the tother by the fygure of ironye or antiphrasys . And by a lyke maner figure saint Hierome agaynst the olde heretyke Vigilantius , calleth hym somtyme Vigilantius , and somtime agayne Dormitantius / and so he calleth that heretyke two contrary names , as well as I do these .

And where he can not te● what I mene by the new broched bretherhed : that am I content to tell hym / I mene that they be a barell of poysen , that the deuyll hath late sette abroche , and laboreth by them to poysen other men .

And where he can not bere it , that they beynge suche shold be called by the name of euangelycalles : I well allowe the good mynde of the good man , that he therin sheweth hym self so to bere to the fayth , that it greueth hym to here heretykes called by such a good graciouse name . But he must consyder that it is now , and some yeres al redy passed hath ben , the name by which they haue bene as commenly called in all the cuntreys catholyke , as by theyr owne very name of heretyke . And th occasyon therof grewe fyrst of that that themself toke the name euangelicall , arrogantly to them self both by th euangelycall lyberty that they pretended , as folke that wolde lyue vnder the gospell and vnder no mannes lawe besyde / & bycause they wolde also byleue nothynge ferther , than the very scrypture , all which they take now vnder the name of the gospell . For the new lawe they take for nothyng ellys , but for the declaracyon and perfeccyon of the olde .

Now whan they had taken thys name comenly vpon them self , the catholikes tellyng them , that they neyther lyued nor byleued accordynge to the gospell letted not yet to call them by the same name to / & that not to theyr prayse , but to theyr rebuke & shame . And some turned in wrytyng that name of theyrs in scorne , & in stede of euangelicos , wrote them pseudo euangelicos .

Now yf this man can not bere it , that I call them as the old folke do : though I wolde my selfe leue it for his pleasure , that wolde make ye wote well but a small chaunge . For other folke wyll call than styll yet by what name they lyst , and neyther I nor he can lette them .

But to th entent he may be somewhat the lesse discontent with me , for callynge heretykes by a good name : he shal vnderstande that vpon suche occasyon & such maner , it is no newe begon thyng so to do . For a certayne sorte there were of the heretikes that were the Manicheis , which were fyrst amonge them selfe called by the name of Cathari , that is to wyt pure and clene / & afterward the catholikes called them by the same name . And so doth saynt Austayne also call theym in his wrytynge . But yet he declareth bothe theyr false heresyes , & theyr secrete shamefull lyuyng for such , that though he call them by the name of pure and clene , as we call now these bretherne euangelycall , yet he ment that they were neither pure nor clene in dede , no more than these folke in lyuynge or bylyefe , folow the very gospell in dede .

But than cometh he forth vppon me somwhat solempnly with a very foly and with a solempne lye . For lo good readers these are his wordes I warraunt you wyse and trewe .

And now wyll I saye somwhat ferther concernyng thys mater , and that is thys . I meruayle mych , how mayster More durste for offence of hys conscyence , and for drede of the kynges dyspleasure , and of the whole realme , brynge vp such a slaunderouse name in this realme , and put it in prynt , that may lyghtly touche not onely many of the comon people , but also of the greatest of the realme , as well spyrytuall as temporall ; yf he and other of hys affynyte ly●te to call any of them one of the blessed bretherne , or of the good brethern . And in this poynt it semeth , that he forgate the honour of the realme , whyche he semed moch to regarde , whan he sayd : he coulde not thynke it to the honour of the realme , that other realmes shuld wene , that the whole clergye of this realme shulde be so farre fallen into the grudge and indygnacyon of the whole temporaltye , as he sayth it is spoken to be in the sayd treatyse , whyce he calleth the boke of diuisyon : for certaynly it is more dyshonour to the realme , to haue it noysed , that the realme is full of heretykes , than that the temporaltye grudgeth agaynste the spyrytualty , and so he esheweth and fleeth the lesse sclander , though it were all true that he sayeth and renneth heedlynge into the greater .

And now wyll I saye somewhat ferther concernynge thys mater / and that is thys . I meruayle mych how this man durst for offence of his conscyence & dyspleasure of god , brynge vp suche a slaunderouse lye vppon me , and wryte it in hys boke , that I sholde wryte in myne apologye , that the realme is full of heretykes .

If the case were nowe no better vppon my parte , nor no wurse vpon his , but that in myne apologye there coulde no suche sayenge be founden : what rebuke were it yet vnto hym , yf he were a man openly knowen by name ? as now the shame cleueth not on hys chekes , but he soone shaketh it of whyle hys name is not at hys booke . But nowe syth that in myne apologye I playnely wryte the contrary : what wordes wyl there serue to saye to thys man the thynges , that he were in this poynt wery wel worthy to here .

R●de good chrysten readers the xlvii . chapyter of myne apology , begynnynge in the .260 . leaf and there shall you playnely se , that I saye playne the contrary . For where as thys pacyfyer dyd in hys boke of dyuisyon vnder the name of some other bylye of lykelyhed some of the spyrytualty than , surmyttynge that they as of polycy noysed that the realme is full of heretykes more than it is in dede / as he now bylyeth me here , surmysynge that I do say the same : ye shall there se that I shewe it to be vnlykely , that any polytyke spyrytuall man wolde so saye for polycy / syth so to say were for them for the cause that I there shew , very far agaynst good polycy . And there I ferther shew , that some heretykes haue ●alsely made that noyse , and there I tell for what cause . And afterward in fo● 268. I shew that for all theyr besy bragyng , they be yet in dede but a few .

Now good reades whan I thus haue wryten there in both the places so open and so playne , that the realm is not full of heretykes , nor hath ther in but a few , though the few be in dede ouer many / & growen mo also by neglygence in some parte , than there hath bene in some late yeres passed : how may this man fynde in his harte for shame , to wryte in this wyse ? and as it were with such authoryte so solempnely chekke me falsely , for writyng that the realm is full , & than excuse his lyke fawte by myne / & yet in the comparison make myne the greater to ? But now is all the craft of the comparyson dyscouered , & the glory of that argument defaced , whyle you se that his fawt is trew , & that myne he feyneth & fyndeth not in myn boke , but playn and expressely the contrary / and that he spynneth that fyne lye without flex , fetchyng it out of his own body as the spider spynneth her cobwebbe . And thus is my fawte fayre wyped awaye , & hys lyeth styll in his necke , and another now layed vnto it .

Now as thys was no lytell foly for hym to lese his credence with that openlye , that myght be so soone and so playnely controlled and reproued : so is his fyrst poynt also no lesse foly than that , wherin he merueyleth so mych that I dare for my conscyence , and for dyspleasure of my prynce , & of the whole realme , brynge vp that slaunderouse name in the realme , to call these heretykes the bretherne / consyderynge that it maye lyghtely touche not onely any man of the comen people , but also of the greatest of the realme , as well spyrytuall as temporall , yf eyther my selfe or any of myn affinite lyste to call them , one of the blessed brethern or of the good brethern

This is forsoth one the most symple sought out foly , that euer I yet sawe set out with hygh wordes so solempnely . For fyrst as for to call them by the name of the bretherne , is nothynge of my bryngynge vppe , but a worde walkynge in euery mannes mouth ( whyche thynge I can not byleue but thys man wel knoweth hym selfe , as straunge as he maketh the mater ) and bygonne by the good blessed bretherne them selfe , as wel appereth vppon theyr owne letters , inough to be shewed at sondry seasons sent bytwene them .

Now touchynge the great fere & perel that he putteth , leste I or some of myne affynyte may slaunder any of the greatest of the realme , yf we lyste to call any suche man one of the good bretherne : the good man maye take his rest I warraunt hym , & shal not nede to breke his slepe therfore . For fyrst as for myne affynyte is not very great . For I haue none affinyte but as I thynke hym selfe hath and euery other man , that is to wyt eyther by gossepred or by maryage / excepte he mene to call all the trewe catholykes myne affynyte , and all the tother his owne . And than whyche waye so euer he mene , a sewde slaunderouse worde were as lykely to happen in one of his affinite as in one of myne . And as for my self the pacifyer hym selfe is ( as hys some sayes shewe ) somwhat more set vppon an appetyte of slawnderynge than am I , whych bere a lytell more reuerence to the great men of the realme , spyrituall and temporall bothe , and more honest mynd vnto the small all , than wrongfully to dyffame eyther great or small , by callynge eyther the tone or the tother , any of the blessed byched new broched brethe●hed / excepte onely such as by theyr own open wrytynges , or by theyr open wordes , be playnly proued heretykes .

But yet consider wel good reders , what a wyse reason thys is that he bryngeth forth . For what parell is there of such slaunder , more by this name of the good bretherne than by the tother name of heretykes ? is not the olde name of heretykes , as slaunderouse as this new name of the blessed brethern● what name can this good man deuyse vs hym selfe to call them by , in whyche name the same parell of slaunder may not fall as well as in this ? Men may by thys wyse reason call them by no name at al , for fere lest I or myne affinite might yf we lifte , call not onely any of the people , but also the grettest lordys both spyrituall and temporall , by the same name , and so brynge them in slaunder . For the slawnder is all one what so euer the name be , whan the thynge is all one that is ment and signifyed therby .

And this man vseth hym selfe in this place therfore , very circumspectely for this poynte in this chapyter , where he speketh of heretykes after his .iiii. sortys of folke before . For he calleth them there by no name at all hym selfe , but sayth of the fourth sort : These be the wurst sorte of people before all other , excepte onely an other sorte of people , whiche syre Thomas More in hys apologye calleth somtyme desperate wreches , sometyme starke heretykes , and somtyme the blessed bretherne , and sometyme the noughty bretherne &c. So that this good man him self here , lyke a true faythfull man , affirmeth them nought / & such & so nought , as ther be none wurse . But name ( as it semeth ) for fere of occasyon of slaunder , he durst here none call them hym selfe but sayth they be they , whome I call thus and thus .

Well I wyl make no vow therof as yet / but I wyll peraduenture at a leysour here after vppon better ad uisement , vse the same cyrcūspeccyō and polycye that I lerne of his ensample here / and whan I speke of suche maner folke , geue them no name at all my selfe / but for a token that men maye wytte whome I mene , I shall saye those felowes I mene that saint Poule perdy calleth heretykes so / & that be all they that obstinately holde any selfe mynded opynyon , contrary to the doctryne that the comen knowen catholyke chyrche , techeth & holdeth for necessary to saluacyon .

After all thys in the .xiiii. and the xv . leaf , he asketh me wyth a solempne dreuen processe , whyther I wolde not thynke it good and weldone / that all such as haue authoryte to punysh heretykes , shold before they punysh them , amende fyrst theyr own fawtes . And I thynke yes in good faith , that it were very well done / and I wold that euery man wolde so do in dede , that eyther sholde correcte heretyke or any malefactour els .

But than agayn I aske hym , that though this were weldone , yf euery man wolde waxe as good as another good man wolde wyshe hym , and as hym selfe wold wysshe another man to be : yet yf there were some that were not so sodaynly so well dysposed , as to mende theyr own fawtes so soone as the dewty of theyr offyce wolde requyre of necessyte , that they sholde do correccyon vppon the fawtes of some other folke : sholde they not yet do it for all that in the meane whyle , and other folke to whom it apperteyned / be bounden to assyste them therin , though theyr owne fawtes were not all amended yet .

To this question so he hath in the same place answered me yes , as I haue hym to the toth●r . And thus good readers this good man and I , after our sore conflycte in the tother mater , haue yet in these two poyntes stryken handes agayn , and be god be thanked metely well agreed togyther , god holde it .

The , vi . chapyter .

HIs syxth chapyter begynneth in the .xvi. leaf , wherin he shewed that I in myne apologye misse take the letter of his sayd treatyce / and he telleth which wordis . But he telleth neyther in what place of his booke his wordes are , nor in what place of my booke you maye fynde myne . Those two thynges he leueth out , bycause he wolde as he sayd in the begynnynge , not folowe th order of my chapyters , but take the waye that sholde be best to the playn openynge of the trouth . But for as mych as me semeth that to the playn openynge of treuth , the redyer waye is to reade fyrste bothe the places , & than this his answere after : ye may therfore good readers fynd both hys wordis and myne in my apologye / his in the leaf . 123 / and myne agaynste which he now reasoneth in his answer ye shall fynd fo. 127. And now good readers yf you reade and consyder those two places fyrst , and than compare well the wordes of myne apologye there , with the wordes of his answere here : it shall suffyce for this mater . For there shal you se wel that I mysse take not the letter of his wordes . For I say not nay , but that hys wordes go onely agaynst spyrytuall men / but his reason runneth out agaynst euery kynd of men spyrytuall & temporall to . And there I shew also , the reason wherfore and why . And therfore I wene it wyl appere plain , that I myssetake not the letter of his treatyse at all / & that his reason runneth out in dede agaynst euery kynde of men . For there is neyther spyrytuall man nor temporall , but he maye take harme by habundaunce .

But so is there as I there saye , neyther , spyrytuall man nor temporall , but he maye wyth haboundaunce do good .

But nowe the declaracyon of his mynde in thys answere , mendeth al the mater . For here he declareth that by these wordis of his in a maner stranglynge : he meaneth the mynyshynge of some feruour , as though a man wolde say that by almost killyng with a clubbe , he ment the geuynge of a fylyppe in the forhed wyth his lytle fynger .

But syth that in this .vi. chapite● of hys , his great mortall stranglyng is nowe strangeled away , and tourned into venyall synne : we shall for this mater trouble you no lenger / but eueryman maye take haly water and go home to dyner , for seruyce is all done here for to day .

The counsayle of saynte Bernarde that he there speketh of to the pope Eugenius , is in good fayth as me thynketh very well brought in . And I wolde aduyse euery spiritual man to folowe yt , and to take good temporal men to hym , and let theym do all hys temporall besynesse for hym . This thynke I good as for myne owne mynde , but yf there be in any parte any lawes made all redy to the contrarye , by suche folke as yt can not bycome me to contrall . Howe be yt I suppose that myche parte of theyre temporall besynesse is done by temporall men in dede .

As for his acte of parliament that he speketh of I suppose veryly that the clergye wolde not be agaynst yt . And suche actes are there all redy made mo then one , good and suffycyent / but yf he meane to sette an addycyon therto , that ●he kynges grace sholde expressely be bounden by the acte , that yf he gaue any lycence of mortysynge into the chyrche , yt shold be voyde / excepte such cases as thys good man lyste to lymyte and geue hym leue . Syth his hyghnes is now moued by this good man here therto : his grace may agre to it when yt pleaseth hym .

As for the great mater that he maketh , of that I neuer in all the tyme that I was conuersaunt in the court , could perceyue any of the noble men aboue the nombre of seuen , and yet not nowe so many , that euer thought yt good that any possessyons of the chyrche , sholde wyth oute a lawfull cause be taken awaye there from : I meruayle mych what he meaneth , and what subtyll conceyte he conceyueth in his wyse breste , that he so mutereth , and mumbleth vpon that word as though suche communicacyon eyther on the tone syde or the tother , were of suche hygh importaunce , that yt were eyther felonye or some heyghnouse mysprisyon , eyther in tellyng the tale agayn , or els in kepyng yt counsayle so longe .

For I wote nere in good faythe in whyche of the twayne this good man fyndeth the faute , or whether he fynde any or none . But yf he fynde any : in which of the twayne so euer he fynd yt , he fyndeth but his owne foly . For nowe shall you good readers se , what lytle insyght the man hath in any thyng that he readeth . Fyrst he reherseth a parte of my wordis wryten in myne Apologye fo. 130 , where I saye that I neuer founde in all the tyme whyse I was conuersaunt in the courte , of all the nobylyte of this lande . aboue the nombre of seuen , that euer I perceyued to be of the mynd , that yt were eyther ryght , or reasonable , or coulde be to the realme profytable , wythout lawfull cause to take any possessyons awaye frome the clergye .

Nowe vpon these wordis ye shall se what he gathereth , by whych ye shal se what wyt and what lernynge the man hath . These are his wordes lo.

Syth mayster More sayth that he hath not knowen aboue seuen ( wherof he sayth thre are dede ) that were of the mynde that yt were reasonable wythout cause to take possessyons fro the clergye / in whyche wordes yt is coucluded , that he knew seuen of that mynde , whose opynyons yt lyketh hym to reherse and putte in writynge and in prynte also .

This man hath a special insyght in inclusyues and exclusyues , when he weneth that in my wordes it were included , that I knewe .vii. of that mynde , that yt were reasonable to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche wythout cause . My wordes you wote well that I neuer knewe aboue seuen , that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the chyrche , thought eyther ryght , or resonable , or that yt coulde be to the realme profytable . What include these wordis now ? Do they include as he saith , that I say that I knew .vii. that thought yt reasonable ? Thys man ys so connynge in hys inclusyues & exclusyues , that he dyscerneth nothynge bytwene compulatyues and dysiunctyuys . This man I se well neuer lerned the rule that almoste euery boy can , that to the veryte of a dysiunctyue , yt suffyseth any one parte to be trew . Let hym now lerne yt therfore / and thenne shall he perceyue that my wordis include no farther , but that I saye that I knewe seuen which among them all thought some one of those thre thynges , that is to wyt , eyther some of them some one , and some of them some other or els al seuen some one of those thre thinges , that is to wyt , eyther ryght , or reasonable , or profytable , wythoute any determynacyon whyche of the thre . And neyther includeth those wordes of myne that I say all seuen thoughte yt ryght , nor that all seuen thoughte yt reasonable , no nor yet that all seuen thought yt profytable . But yt hangeth not vppon hys determynacyon , but vpon myn owne declaracyon , which of these thre thinges whyche of those same seuen thought or whyche one of the thre they all thoughte / and neuer one of those thre thynges is determinately included to any one of the seuen . For yf I wolde saye that I neuer knewe in all my lyfe any man aboue the nomber of seuen , that had ben eyther at Alkayre or at Salem , or at Bizance : do these wordes include that I saye that I haue knowen seuen that haue ben at Salem ? That am I sure they do not . But I maye well stande by those wordes , yf I sayde after , that I haue knowen seuen persons that haue b●n al seuen at Bizance / but as for Alkayre or Salem I neuer knewe any one that hadde ben at any one of them both .

And in lyke wyse wyll I well stande by myne other wordes and veryfye theym wyth a good excludyng of this mannes includyng . For I say and very trouthe yt is , that I neuer found any noble man aboue the nombre of seuen , that wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye possessyons fro the clergye , thought yt eyther ryght or reasonable , or that yt coulde be for the realme profytable . I founde not I saye aboue seuen , that thought any one of all these thre / is not this trew yf I found seuen , that thought all thre ? yes forsoth trewe ynough though I neuer found any one , that euer thought any two of the thre . And nowe therfore though I neuer founde any noble man so vnryghtuouse , or so vnreasonable , as to thynke yt ryght or reasonable , wythoute lawfull cause to take awaye any possessyons from the clergye : yet haue I founde seuen that haue thought , yf ryghte and reason wolde bere yt , they coulde tell howe that as for worldely polycye , some of the possesseons taken awaye myght be to the realme profytable And some one hathe thought that yt wolde be peraduenture profytable to the realme , that the lordes hadde the landes whose auncestours had mortysed theym . And peraduenture he that so thought , shold not haue lost a grote by yt . And some other hathe thought that it wold be more profytable to put yt into hospytalles of some certayn new fashyoned foundacyon , and therof neyther make prestes the maysters , nor no laye men neyther , but some good sad honest vertuouse wydos , that wolde be tendable & tendre to syke folke , and that shold yerely yelde a compte vnto th ordynarye . And some other haue thought yt better to dyuyde & cant yt amonge good pore husband men , that shold tyl the ground theyr own handes , & take the lande for theyr labour , with dyuers other deuyses mo , euery man after hys own mynde . And what harme was there nowe in any of all theyre myndes , that thys good wise man wold haue my wordes seme so heygnouse , vppon a sentence that hym selfe includeth in theym / and whyche sentence of hys , reason excludeth from theym / and in whyche as you playnly se proued , thys man woteth nere what he meaneth . And to th entent that he shold wel knowe that the mater is nothynge ferefull : therfore wrote I that thre were dede , bycause he sholde well wyt that there were yet the more parte a lyue . And therfore yf the good man thynke any great heygnouse offence in the mater : lette hym come to me hym selfe , and I shall brynge hym to some of theym , that shall not make yt straunge to say agayne the same to hym selfe / and than he may vse it at his pleasure as his hygh wysedome shal thynke conuenyent .

Than sayth he farther in the seconde syde of the .xviii. leaf , that he can not tel what cause I wold thynke a cause resonable , to take any possessions from the chyrche . But yet syth yt is implyed in my wordes , that some cause lawefull and resonable there may be : he thynketh he sayth , that peraduenture yf I were asked the question therin , by them that haue authoryte to do it , I wolde shewe what I ment therby . There shal in good faith nede no gret solemne examynacyon of me by men of authoryte for that mater . For I wyll not stycke to tel yt vnto hym selfe / but haue tolde yt al redy to hym and euery man ellys that lyste to reade yt , a good whyle a go in my booke of the Supplycacyon of soules / and there maye thys good man go seke yt yf yt please hym , and then vse yt as yt lyke hym .

But fynally after his harte some what eased , he cometh to hym selfe agayne , and endeth the chapyter very well / wyshynge the clergye the grace that the apostles had , and declarynge that he neuer desyred them th apostles pouertye / and exhortyng theym that haue aboundaunce of possessyons , to be well ware so to vse yt as yt be not a let of the deuocyon that they sholde haue to god , and the charyte that they sholde shewe to theyre neyghbour . In these thre thynges he sayth as me thinketh very specially well . And I praye you hartely good readers euery man the● rather at my pore request , what so euer he wrote before , thynke now that he ment then but thus .

The .vii. chapeter .

HIs seuenth chapiter begynneth in the .xix. leaf and therin vppon a sex leues / he argeweth agaynste a lytle doute that I moued vpon the begynnynge of his fyrste chapyter of hys dyuysyon / whych wordes of his and myne theruppon begynne in myne apologye fo. 101. And the same poynt is touched agayne there fo. 106. When you haue there redde what I ●●y : then may you rede here hys answere , wherin he declareth the mater , and argueth , it by cases of law , mych after the maner of a motable case , ful wel fauoredly in good fayth / and wyth longe labour proueth at laste , that yt must be taken in such wyse as he seeth , that among other construccions I construed his minde my self , though I was loth to do so , bycause that waye was the worste for hym selfe . But nowe he remedyeth that wyth a lyne or twayne● wherin he declareth that he ment not to preferre euery seculare preste byfore those that are in relygyon . wherin I wold haue trusted him as well vppon his worde , as vppon the reason that he layeth for it now / whyche saue for the truste that I haue to his word , I wold wene he neuer thoughte on whan he wrote the dyuysyon / but rather ended the clause in suche wyse as yt happed , wythout any respect peraduenture to th encrease and growynge of the sentence in the ende .

I was ones halfe in mynde here to haue kepte scoles wyth hym yet in this poynte ones agayne , euyn all of pleasure / and to haue broughte yt yet agayne in questyone , whether the cyrcumstaunces of his wordis were able to proue , that he ment otherwise than he now argueth that it muste nedis be taken . And then yf the cyrcumstances so dyd , whether commen vsage and acceptaunce of a worde sholde agaynste the cyrcumstaunces of the mater , haue lyke strength in all other thynges , as yt hath in maters of law / and whether the reason vsed in the courtes in maters of law , be of lyke strength in euery other thynge as they be when they be made in mate●s of lawe / and of lyke vygour and force in euery place abrode , as they be in the courtes in whyche they haue ben longe receued and accepted for sure and stable groundes .

And whyther in this poynte betwene hym and me , beynge no mater of the law nor perteynyng to the iudgement of any court , but to be consydered by the whole people in euery mannes reason at large , the cases of the lawe of thys realme that he bryngeth in , whyche be iudged and sure , and shold serue the tone parte in the lawe , though the mater were the weyghte of a thousande pounde , sholde hycause we be englyshe men , and our mater wryten in Englande and in Englyshe wordes , stande for a sure and an insoluble argument , though the lawes both ciuyle and canon that are called the comen lawes of all chrystendome besyde vs , were as peraduenture they be in the selfe same cases , full and whole to the contrarye .

And yet wolde I besyde thys a lytle haue assayed , so to shake his cases of London and Mychelmasse , that per aduenture to many a man in London betwene this and Michelmas , shold they neuer haue semed lyke vnto our mater , by that tyme that I had ones declared them the dyfference .

These poyntes and happely mo to , was I when I redde his answere halse mynded as I saye to haue brought in , and dysputed wyth hym vpon this mater . For I was waxen with the readyng of his answere very mery , and waxen me thought a yong man agayn / and semed set at a vacacyon mote with hym in some Inne of the chauncery , bycause of hys comen entendement , and his proper casys of lawe .

But than I consydered that as I was in the redynge of his answere mery : so was hym selfe I saw well in the wrytynge wery / and other readers that were no lawyers , wolde in the readynge waxe almost as wery . Than sawe I also , that whan hym selfe had all sayed , he lyked not hys owne all the beste / but after all hys payne taken in the answeryng , seyng that his answere lyked hym not , he was fayne to fall to another waye , & telleth me that there nedeth none answere to that poynte at all , bycause that there is no frute he sayth in that obieccyon .

Now therfore yf th obieccyon be frutelesse , and therfore th answere nedelesse , and verily frutelesse to : nowe to reply thereto were labour halfe loste and more . And therfore good readers for as myche as to the answere made by the maner , no law putteth vs ferther to reply : the mater is at a demurrour in thys poynt , and we at your iugement , wherein ye may vse your wysedome and iuge it euyn as you fynde it . Wherin the best that he can aske , is but to be dysmyssed , & iudge that he ment not to preferre the state of chauntry prestes before the state of relygyouse persons / but ment as he now declareth his minde ( whiche very few folke coulde before as I suppose haue gessed ) that the varyaunce bytwen prestes and prestes , that is to wyt bytwene seculare prestes and seculare prestes , is more to be lamented than bytwene prestes & relygyouse , or bytwene relygyouse and relygyouse , bycause the varyaunce bytwene prestes and prestes is more marked and more notable than any of the tother , bycause the prestes go more abrode .

Now yf this exposicyon of his mynde may serue to quyte hym now : ( which I am content it do ) it is all I promyse you that it maye do . For it wyll neuer serue hym to recouer dammages . For he can neuer blame no man that perceyued not that before , that is skant credyble yet .

But yet bycause he so myche incusketh the lacke of fruyte in many of myne obieccyons , and that they be no maters of no morall vertue : I wyll not answere hym wyth the lyke / and saye that in many of hys pretended causes of dyuisyon is no fruit at all , nor no morall vertue neyther / as in procurynge the people to byleue vntrewly , that the prelates handle men vncherytably , and for heresyes vexe them wrongfully , & geue occasyon that some peryshe both in body and soule / whyche yf the ordynaryes had handeled them cherytably , had ben in bothe twayne saued / and that it wyl be very harde to fynd so myche as any one spyrytuall man suche , as hym selfe deuyseth and aduyseth , that none but suche sholde be suffred to be iudge in heresye / and laborynge also the good lawes of thys realme and of all chrystendome to be chaunged , to the ease of heretykes , that haue ben made for the repressynge of heresyes / wyth suche other thynges lyke that are in his boke of dyuysyon mo than I euer wrote worde of yet / in whiche ( as I haue often sayd ) for as mych as I see that he professeth hym selfe to hate and abhorre these heresyes , that these folke now holde , whom saynt poule calleth heretikes ( I dare not now for hym but whan I forget my selfe call theym by none other name ) I wolde with good wyll that men shold thynke he ment none hurt . But in the wordes of the wrytynge , taken after the comen vsage and acceptaunce of spekynge , as he wyll in thys his .vii. chapyter haue me take them , there is neyther morall vertue nor frute , but full vnfrutefull vyce .

But as I sayd , I wyll not in defence of myne● , answere hym with the fawtes of his . For myne were neuer the better though his be nought to . But I saye that myne obieccyons in myne apologye be not frutelesse , bycause they defende the truthe , & make good folke perceyue both what harme it were to byleue suche euyll lyes , & what dammage it were to put awaye suche good lawes / and how vnreasonable it were in other mennes fawtꝭ to take small thyngꝭ for very heyghnouse and great / or for them that in a felesshyp are fawty , not to bere dyspleasure onely to theyr persons , but to be at dyuysyon in generall wyth the whole company . And this fruitis there also , that though that boke saye the contrary , straungers such as are here and can rede englysshe , whyche are not ye wote well a few , many yet perceyue by playne proues in myne apologye , that not onely there is no suche great generall causes of dyuysyon as the booke of dyuysyon sayth that there is , but also that there is no such great generyll dyuysyon thorow the realme in dede . These fruytes are there in many of myne obieccyons agaynste hys booke in myne apologye .

Now where as some of myne obieccyons peraduenture , say but eyther lacke of lernynge in hym , or lacke of naturall wytte , syth his name is not at his boke , but he speketh hym selfe vnknowen : this profyte is there in suche obieccyons , that wythout hys rebuke or shame , the readers may by those fawtes perceyue , that the wryter was not of any such specyall qualytees , as the booke wherin so mych euyll was conteyned , sholde be mych lened vnto , for credence and authoryte of the man .

Finally the very selfe obieccyon , wherof he speketh in that seuenth chapyter of his in his new booke , & sayth there is no profyte in that obieccyon , and that therfore it neded none answere / but he myght graunte me all that euer I saye therin , and yet none effectuall mater were there for all that : therto I saye that loke who so lyste what I saye therin , and he shall fynde that yf this man graunte all that , he shal graunte in hym self mych more ouersyghte & mych more lacke of lernyng to , than were requysyte in hym that wold put out bokes abrode / and therfore hys wrytyng the lesse to be regarded , whyle hys person is vnknowen / where as yf his person were knowen , he myght be peraduenture perceyued for all that , for suche a specyall man by syde , that hys approued wysedome and lernyng well knowen otherwyse , myght for th estimacyon of his boke , more than countrepayse some suche ouersyghtes as at a tyme myght happely to scape a right wyse man , that wolde wryte by candellyght whyle he were halfe a slepe .

But than I say ferther yet / that in that obieccyon was a mater of no lytell effect . For takyng that he ment as hym selfe sayth he dyd : his wordes semed playnely to shewe , that he rekened the state of chauntry prestis , to be a state of more perfeccyon than the state of relygyouse folke . And therfore th obieccyon contayned mater of great effecte , and whych he mych neded to answere and to declare that he ment not so / but that he ment as he now declareth , that dyuysyon is bytwene seculare prestes , more lamentable than bytwene relygyouse , bycause the seculare prestes be more abrode , and therby theyr varyaunce more knowen . Whyche exposycyon few men I wene wold haue thought vpon before . But now that he sayth he ment so : I am very well content therwyth , and wolde that all folke sholde take it so to / & yet is it ye wote well but very wynter ware , and a scu●e as colde as a ●ay .

The .viii. chapyter .

HIs .viii. chapiter begynneth in the secunde side of his xxv . leaf , and pretendeth to answere my wordes wryten agaynste his , in the .xix. chapiter of myne apology , whyche begynneth folio . 116.

And now he sayth that I say there , that I wote not wel what he meneth in that he sayth that the spyrytualtye call the worldely honour of the chyrche and of spyritual persons , the honour of god . And therfore he sayeth here , that he wyll , & so doeth declare therin , what he there ment therby .

But here is now the crafte . where as I did there shew what I thought he ment therby , and therfore made answere to those thyngꝭ that I thought he there ment : now the mater beyng chaunged here , by hys new declaracyon : he bryngeth in myne answers made there , and confuteth them for insuffycyent now , whan hys new declaracyon hath made a chaunge in the mater / as though I had than men●●o answere this , that I was not than ware that he wolde now saye , nor I wene hym selfe neyther .

But rede fyrste good readers the xix . chapyter of myne apologye begynnyng fo. 116. and there shall you se those wordes of his suffycyently answered , for the thynge that me thought he ment . And than after that done , consyder hys answere here / in whyche for all hys holy pyece of a sermon , what doth he tell me . He telleth me that honour is onely dew to vertue , & that no man may couet honour without offence / excepte it be to the honour of god , and that inordyna● appetyte of honour is dedely synne / and that yf a spyrytuall man wolde accepte honour by reason of any spirytuall dygnyte , and that god were therby dyshonoured , thanne that honour were not to be called honour but dyshonour / and that yet some laye menne saye that spyrytuall men call it an honour to god .

All thys whole tale for all thys holy sermon is yet to the mater , in mayntenaunce of hys formar wordis whiche he wold here seme to defend , vtterly tolde in vayne . For fyrste in all this tale he telleth vs not well what he calleth worldly honour , whyche he sayth the spirytualty calleth the honour of god , & which was the thynge that I sayed I wyste nere what honour he ment . For where he wolde seme to declare it : there is hys declaracyon both very bare , & yet agaynst hym to . For in the secunde syde of the xxvi . leaf , he drybbeth in a worde of spyrytuall dygnite / & thus he sayth . Then I mene ferther , that yf any spyrytuall man wolde accepte a worldly honour , by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte , & god were therby dyshonored , as it may be by many circumstances , as yf for suche worldly honour charyte be in any maner broken or denyed , iustyce delayed , any of the .vii. sacramentes not ●nely mynystred : or the people not dylygentely and playnely instructed : that then it is not to be called honour to god , but rather dishonour , and that yet some saye men say , they call it an honour to god . And surely the truth is , that many saye men saye , that for the mayntenaunce of such worldly honour , spyrytuall men bothe relygyouse and seculer , be neglygent somtyme in such thinges , as be before rehersed , and that yet they call suche worldly honour the honour of god .

Here he hath told vs that yf any spyrytuall man wold accept a worldly honour , by reason of any spyritual dygnite , wherby god were dyshonored , that honour were not honour . But yet he telleth vs not what maner of worldly honour it is that he meneth to be accepted by reason of a spirytuall dignyte / nor yet what maner thynge suche worldly honour is / nor touchyng that spyrytual dignite , he telleth not whyther he mene a desyre in any man to attayne any spyrytual dignite , for some kinde of worldly honour that he thynketh shold folow theron , or els some worldly honour by reason of any spyrytuall dygnyte , that the man hath all redy .

I let passe his cold and vnsauery tolde tale of cheryte denyed , and iustyce delayed , and some of the seuen sacramentes not duly mynystred , for mayntenaunce of such worldely honour , as some spyrituall men bothe seculares and relygyouse by reason of spyrytuall dygnytees accepte , as some laye men saye . A pore tale and a colde by my faye , to be tolde for a cause of an heyghnouse vniuersall dyuysyon . For thys were an endeles dyuysyon , yf euery suche ●awte of some , sholde vppon euery some saye be layed for a cause of dyuysyon agaynst the generall body .

And yet bysyde all thys , I saye that hys fyrste wordes are nothynge mayntened wyth all thys mater . For hys fyrste wordes spake of a consent and agrement , wherin seculare prestes and relygyous , for all the varyaunce bytwene them selfe for other thynges , yet agre togyther about the mayntenaunce of that worldely honour that they call the honour of god . And here he speketh but of another mater that is to wyt that for the mayntenaunce of wordely honour● spyrytuall men both relygyouse and secular be neglygent somtyme , & in some maner breke or denye cheryte , delaye iustyce , & do not dewly ministre some of the seuen sacramentes , nor dylygently & plainely instructe the peple .

All this tale as you se to wche●h the pryuate fawtes of some such , as for the mayntenaunce of that worldly honour which they call goddes honour , thus mysse vse them selfe . But thys tale is nothynge sybbe to hys other tale , that he tolde and I towched before . For that spake of such agrement all in one , that is to wyt an holdynge togyther whych sygnyfyeth a maynteynynge eche of other agaynst other men , in mayntenaunce of that worldly honour that they call the honour of god , in lyke wyse as for maters of theyr owne , they be one agaynste an other amonge them selfe .

And thus you se playnely good reders , that this maner of mayntenyng of his formar wordis , is a clene going from them , and a seuyng of them vnmayntened / and ( bycause he cometh vppon me byfore in another place with casys of law ) were in the lawe a very playne departure , and sholde in any of the kynges courtes yf I demurred vppon it , vtterly marre all his mater .

And so it appereth that some other some , haue sayd this vnto him sinnys to glose his fyrste wordes wythall . And yet I meruayle that he coulde thynke theyr sayeng worth the rehe●synge agayne . For who can byleue that any spyritual man wold be so madde , as to call worldely honour vsed to goddis dishonour , the honour of god . I can scant byleue that any laye man wolde so tell hym / at the leste wyse not wyth that adieccyon , that he now putteth new therto .

But now yf it so be that vn to tother syde , all spyrytuall men wold wyth one voyce to gether , call the honour of god , that wordly honour that worldely folke do to the chyrche and vnto spyrytuall persons , for the deuocyon that good lay men bere to god and vnto spyrituall persons for goddis sake , by reason of theyr holy orders and honorable romes that they bere in Chrystes chyrche / though some of theym as this man sayth / sometyme do not theyre dutye therin , but leue some parte of theyr dutyes towarde goddes honour vndone therfore : yet for the deuocyon of the temporall persons that for goddis honour do i● , they may all well call yt goddes honour in dede . And therfore is thys good man in that poynte full answered , as solemne a mater as he made therof .

But nowe concernynge hys formare wordes of the agrement of all spyrytuall folke to gether , in the mayntenaunce of theyr wordly honour , for al theyre pryuate dyspleasures and dyssensyons in other thynges among theym selfe / wyth whyche he cometh in after here agayne , and referreth hym to the commen opinyon of mych parte of the people bothe spyrytuall and temporal , whether laye men so saye or not : I saye that though al men so sayde , yet is no man at dyuysyon wyth theym therfore . For there is no cause wherfore any man shold . For yt is none vnreasonable thynge , that syth those thynges whych thys , man speketh of , that is to wyt those spyrytuall dygnytees to whyche he sayth suche worldely honour apperteyne●h , are lawefully theyr owne , eche of theym sholde in all laweful ways and such as are by no law prohybyted , helpe & ass●ste other to kepe them , though there be for pryuate maters of theyr owne varyaunce & suyt betwene theym . And thys may they with better conscyence do eche for other than eche of them for them selfe . For in thys that they do for other , is there not the synne of ambycyon that thys man here speketh of . And this is the parte not onely of spyrytuall men relygyouse and seculare bothe , but of euery good temporall man to / and not onely to do so for them , but euery man also for other . And therfore what reason hadde those same some that so tolde this man , yf there were any some suche in dede , to take thys thynge for any cause of dyuysyon ? or why dyd not he so rather tell theym , than putte theyre founde tale in hys boke ?

But than one pretie pyece he hath of two partes , by whych he weneth that the spyrytualtye can in no wyse escape but that they muste nedys be betrapped in the tone . For when he hathe sayde that the people saye that spyrytuall men be sometyme neglygent in kepynge or grauntynge charyte , or in spedy doynge of iustyce or in duely mynystrynge some of the seuen sacramentes , or in playne & dylygent instructynge of the people : then with a proper pyece of two partes thus he concludeth the mater .

And yf yt be not so as the people saye : then are the spyrytuall rulers bounden to helpe the people oute of that iugement , or ellys they be not wythout offence theym selfe . And on the tother syde , yf yt be as the people saye ● then are spyrytuall men bounden to reforme yt .

As for thys two handed sworde , some yonge lustye freee wold boldely bete of wyth a two handed staffe , and tell this man agayne , that yf the peple as he putteth for the tone parte sayde in such thynges not trew : than seeth he not nor no man elles neither , what the spyrytnal rulers coulde do to put theym oute of that iudgement , but tell theym , nolite iudicare et non iudicabimini / and so wyll that syde of the sworde do this man lytle seruyce . And then on the tother syde , yf the people in these thynges saye trew as yt is well lykely they do : than trewe yt is that the spyrytull men be bounden to reforme yt . But than is yt as trew agayne , that the thynge beynge but suche as this man reherseth , that ys to wyt neglygence but in some , in doyenge of some parte of theyr dutye , and that also but sometyme , is no cause of dyuysyon to sette the whole temporaltye agaynge theym all , and that syde of the sworde the frere wold wyth this ende of his staffe bete , harde vnto this mannes own hed .

Now goeth this man farther fo. 27. and sheweth that myne answere to his wordes whyche you reade in the .xix. chapyter of myn Apologye , be very darke , by the reason that I vse therin so often this word ( Some saye ) whyche is he sayth done after a raylyng fashion . But as you know wel good reders , I haue taken that word Some say , of his boke , in whyche I redde yt so often / that yt falleth somtyme into my penne ere I be ware .

And as for the raylynge fashyon , yf I durste be bolde to tel so sadde a man a mery tale , I wolde tell hym of the frere , that as he was prechyng in the countrey , spyed a pore wyfe of the paryshe wysperynge wyth her pew felowe / and he fallynge angrye therto , cryed oute vnto her alowd , holde thy bable I byd the , thou wyfe in the rede hode . Whyche when the houswyfe herd : she waxed as angry agayn / and sodaynly she starte vppe and cryed oute vnto the frere agayn , that al the chyrch rang theron : mary syr I beshrew his harte that bableth moste of vs both . For I do but wysper a word with my neighbour here , & thou hast babled there al this houre . And surely good readers saue for lettynge of the word of god in this good mannys sermone : I durste well in the same worde ( Some saye ) beshrowe hym and beshrowe hym agayne , that moste hathe raysed therwyth of thys good man or me . For reade my wordes there when ye wyll , and you shall fynde that I wyth that worde do but in a maner playe wyth hym . But by saynte Mary he , how well so euer he ment , hys wordes wyth his many ( Some sayes ) brynge good men in slaunder and obloquye of the people , and peraduenture in parell to , wyth vntrewe surmysed talys of mysse handelynge folke for heresye / and all coloured vnder some sayes to make the lyes seme somewhat lykely . Suche shrewd ( Some sayes ) lo be no mery sportynge , but be sadde and erneste rude raylynges in dede .

Then he toucheth myne answere made in the sayde chapyter of myne apology , & double confuteth yt , that I saye that he hath herd some laye men say the contrary . For fyrste he sayth he neuer herd lay man say to hym the contrary / but that al the spyrytual men relygyouse and seculare , holde to gether in the mayntenaunce of the worldly honour , that they cal the honour of god , & of the ryches of spyritual men .

Nowe you wote well I speke in the sayde .xix. chapytre , that of the spirytualtye suche as are fallen from the fayth vnto heresye , hold not at al wyth that honour that I thoughte he there had ment , that is to wyt wyth byeldynge and garnyshynge of chyrches / but be both agaynst that , and tythes , and offeringes , and obytes , and trentalles , and purgatorye , & masse , and al. And I had went in good fayth that of so great a thyng , and so mych spoken of , yt had happed hym to heare some say men speke , but he sayth nay . Wel we can no farther than , but stand vnto hys worde , and take an othe of his honesty therin , & yet I wene as honeste as he is , what so euer he be , his own honeste frende / wyll be loth to swere wyth hym therin .

But then sayth he farther , that though yt were so : that wolde not yet answere hys sayeng . It wolde not to saye the soth in very dede , takynge his worde as I wene he ment yt . But takynge his worde to the worst ( as he taketh alwaye myne ) and yet but euyn as he wrote yt ( but yf yt be prented false ) yt is a confutacyon to yt . For yf those spyrytuall persones bothe relygyouse and seculares , that are fallen from the fayth to heresyes holde not wyth the remanaunt : then perdye though they were fewer then they be , yt ys not all trewe that he sayeth , that in the mayntenaunce of suche honoure they holde the gether all . And yet as I haue all redye shewed you , yt wolde not helpe hys parte of a peny , though they dyd euery●hone seculares and relygyouse , catholyqnes and heretyques to . And therfore can he not saye but he ys in thys poynte answered , euen to the very full .

Than in the .xxviii. and .xxix. leaf he subtylly fyndeth a faute , that I saye that there are some suche of the spyritualty so fallen vnto heresyes , that yt is pytye that euer they were therof , bycause he sayth we sholde not dyspayre of theym / but they may repent and amende . And also though they do neuer amende : yet I sholde not saye so . For men maye not saye by the deuyll , that yt is pytye that euer he was created , bycause goddes iustyce ys sheweth on hym . We wyl in thys mater kepe no longe scholes . But thys euery man knoweth , that who so vse a commen worde spoken amonge the people , ys rekened so to meane therin , as the commen people meane that vse yt . And therfore syth the people that so speketh , meaneth not to speke agaynste amendement , but agaynste the present wreched state that the man standeth in at the tyme : that worde may by goddes grace be borne metely well ynough . And as touchynge the deuyll , though men maye not grudge agaynst goddes iuste punyshement : yet peraduenture a man myght saye wythoute parell of dampnacyom , that yt was pytye that he so mysse vsed hym selfe / as in theym that are for theyre heyghnouse offences put vnto paynefull deth , though we saye they were serued as they well deserued , yet we lette not to saye yt was pytye that they guyded theym selfe no better . And saynte Chrysostome pytyeth also the deuyll .

And our sauyoure hym selfe pytyed Hierusalem , and for the pytye wept also thereon , for the punyshement that sholde fall theron / and yet was yt the iuste punyshement of god .

And though the partyes afterwarde maye mende and do good agayne : yet for the tyme tyll they mende , ye and after to , we maye pytye that they were in suche case , as to hurte theym whome they haue all redy remedelesse destroyed , by theyr false doctryne dede in the damnable heresyes that they lerned of theym , and lye therfore beryed in hell . And therfore the thynge that I maye not absolutely pytye : yet in some respectes I may .

Fynally he sayeth that I sholde not call any heretyques desperate wrechys . This is a sore poynte I assure you , to cal a wreche , suche as he sheweth hym selfe to be / to cal hym desperate , whose lyuynge sheweth no maner hope of amendement . Saynte Cypryane I se well was sore ouersene , whyche in the seuenth pystle of hys fyrste booke , for lesse thynges than these are , calleth some folke desperate . And y●t was saynt Policarpus farther eu●●sene , whyche calleth Marcyon the fyrste begotten sonne of the deuyll .

Thys man hathe here as he weneth founde oute proper fantsyes , wherin I hadde leuer leue hym in the lykynge , thanne lese myche tyme in answerynge of suche blonte subtyll tryfles .

But to the mater good readers concernynge the formare wordes of hys dyuysyon , all be yt that I haue here more thanne fully confuted this chapytre of hys , for any defence that he hathe for hys sayde formare wordes , where aboute ys all our mater : reade yet the .xviii. chapyter of myne Apologye , wherin you shall se dyuerse other lyke wordes of his / and applye me myne answere there , to those other wordes of hys whyche he defendeth here / and ye shall se that he shal houe more worke then ynough , to defende theym well , and to make theym serue hym to purpose .

The .ix. chapyter .

HIs .ix. chapyter begynneth in the xxx . leaf . And his formare wordis which he therwyth defendeth and myne answere also therto , ye shall se in the xix . chapyter of myne apologye fo. 119. Whyche when you haue good readers there ones redde ouer / than forthwyth whyle yt ys freshe in remembraunce / retourne agayne vnto this , the .ix. chapyter of his dyaloge / and than iudge whether it any thyng touche the poynte or not . For al thys chapyter is spent in preachynge of restytucyon , full wel and ful trewly forsoth / and whych in my pore mynd I very well allowe / and wold haue allowed in lyke wyse his fyrste boke very well , yf there had ben no worse wordes in yt than suche . But nowe the mater standeth all in thys , that thys man maketh there as though the spyrytuallye were very besye to procure men and to enduce the people , to geue money to trentalles , to founde chaunteryes , and obytes , and to obteyne pardons , and to go vppon pylgrymages , leuynge theyr dettes vnpayed , and restytucyon vnmade , whyche thynges shold be done fyrst / and that thys ys the maner of the multitude of the spyritualtie . In this standeth the questyon . And therfore is now the poynt , not whether dettes be fyrst to be payed , & satisfaccyon of wronges fyrste to be made , byfore al these other thynges , wherin thys man sayeth here surely full well / but whyther ( as he wolde haue yt seme by his boke of diuisyon ) that the multitude of the spyrytualtie , that is to wit eyther al saue a fewe , or at the leste wyse farre the moste parte , do solycyte and labour lay people to the contrarye maner / that is to wyt , to do those other thynges , rather than to pay theyr dettis or make restitucyon of theyr wrongis . This is I say the point . And of thys poynt wherin al the mater standeth , this man in this .ix. chapiter of his speketh not one worde . And therfore in this thing , standeth myn answere made in the sayd .xx. chapiter of myne apolpgye clene and clere vntou●hed , as euery man may perceyue that readeth yt .

And therfore where in the seconde syde of his .xxxii. leaf , this man saith thus .

And to th entent I wold haue this mater the better loked vp●on : I wolde here aduertyse syr Thomas More , not by waye of argument , but for clerenesse of conscyence , to consydre whyther ye the more charytable waye , fyrste to make restytucyon and paye dettes , and releue extreme pouerte , and then to do the tother yf he haue to do bothe / or elles to do the fyrste and let the tother passe .

For this his good aduertysement I ve●y hartely thanke hym / & answere hym as hym selfe wolde wysshe I sholde , that surely me thynketh as he doth , that the more charytable waye of the twayne were that that hym self here moueth .

But than lo by and by , he geueth me another good lesson , wherwith he wolde I sholde amende myne owne fawte , that he wolde it shold seme I had in myne apologye made agaynst hym . For than lo thus goeth he ferther forth .

And yf he thynke that this waye that I moue be the more cherytable waye , that than he helpe it forwarde , rather than the other / and than not to blame any man that maketh that mocyon , as though he were agaynst trentallys , obitis , & such other . For he is not agaynst them dyrectely / but onely entendeth to haue them chaunged into a more cherytable orde● . For though prayours be ryght expedyent and helthfull to the soule : yet they serue not in all ca●es as to dyscharge dettes or restytucyons , where there ys inough to paye them wyth / no more than there can be founden any one salue , that can hele all maner of soores .

I neyther haue done that I wote of , nor wyllyngly intende to do , blame hym for any part of this cherytable mocyon / but thynke his mocyon ryght good , and that the fruyte therof yf it be folowed , wyt●e more yet than him selfe sayth he myndeth . For he sayth as you se , that he myndeth but to chaunge obitys and trentallys and those other thynges into a more cherytable order / that is to wytte in to payeng of dettes and recompensyng of wronges in them that haue not of theyr owne bysyde / and in them that haue than to paye the dettes and recompence wronges fyrste , and do the tother after . But me thynketh there wyll come yet a ferther profyte of this order to . For where as here we speke but of hym that payeth his det and recompenseth his wrongꝭ , of whiche folke many a man is able well to do the tother whan bothe those twayn be done / there is to the tother sort of menne also bysyde , to whome those wronges are done , and those dettes owynge , of whyche sorte there be many , that yf theyr wronges were ones recompensed them , & theyr dettis payed them , were able and wolde do those other thynges also them selfe , which now for lacke be not able / & so sholde there of lykelyhed be the selfe thynges that brynge ( as his fyrste boke sayth ) rychesse into the chyrch , by this good order encreaced . And therfore not onely haue I no cause , to blame thys good man for the mocyon of this good cherytable order / but also no more haue the multytude of the prestes , whiche myghte of lykelyhed wynne as mych by thys waye as by the tother , and more excepte the multytude of prestes wolde for the redynesse to take it where it is all redy , moue theym that haue it to do these other thyngꝭ fyrst , & leue theyr dettis vnpaied & theyr wrongis vnrecōpēsed , which that the multitude of prestis do / I neuer herd yet a●y honest laye man , that wolde for very shame say . For I thynke it were harde to mete with a prest that w●re so wreched , but that yf he were asked in that point his ad●●ce & counsayle , he wold in so playn a point though it were but for very shame well & playnely counsayle the trouth . And if percase there were some founden so shamelesse , that they wolde geue counsayle contrary : yet am I very sure they shu●de be farre the fewer parte / and not as thys good mannys fyrste booke sayth , the more parte and the multytude .

And therfore syth this order that this good man here moueth , is so good and so cherytable : I neuer blamed hym for the mocyon . But though this mocion in this boke be good : I myght well and so I dyd , blame his other booke / not for this mocyon , but for another mater , that is bycause it labored vnder pretexte of an vntrew report , to brynge the spyrytualtye in slawnder and obloquy amonge the temporaltye , by makynge men wene that of this cherytable order whyche he now moueth , the multytude of the spyritualty induced men to the contrary .

This is lo the thynge that I blamed . And therfore lyke as thys good man sayeth , that one plaster can not he le all soores : so surely thys same salue of this good cherytable mocion can not serue this good cherytable man , to salue and he le well , this vncherytable soore .

In this mocion , of this cherytable order , thys good manne waxeth so warme , that of a good zele he falleth in remembraunce of the soule ( which our lorde perdon ) of the moste noble prynce of very famouse memory kynge Henry the .vii. father to the most excellent prynce our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is / wherin after mencyon made of obitys and chauntrees , lettyng the dew examynacyon requysyte for restytucion , sodaynly thus he sayth . How be it the ryght noble prynce of blessed memory kynge Henry the .vii. father of our souerayne lorde the kynge that now is , wylled restytucyons to be made . But how hys wyll was performed I can not tell . How be it what so euer was done therin : I suppose hys good entent su●fyseth to hym .

What yf thys good man can not tell ? By lykelyhed there is nothyng owynge to hym therof . For yf there were : than were it lykely that he could tell . For he coulde tell than that all the wyl were not performed . I haue herde I wote well that the kyng our souerayne lorde , delyuered great substaunce into th executours handes , to fulfyll the wyll wythall . Whyche how they haue bestowed , thys good man maye ( yf he haue th authoryte ) call them to the rekenynge . And yf he neyther haue authorite to call for the accompte , nor haue nothyng owyng to hym neyther : the mater than towcheth not hym so nere , nor so specyally perteyneth vnto hym that he shold greatly nede to geue all the worlde warnynge thus , that hym selfe is not made of counsayle , how the kynges wyll is performed .

But here wyll this good man say that I do but mocke him / wherin I wyl not greately stycke wyth hym . But surely for my pore wyt , me thynketh it somwhat more ciuilite , in some such poyntes as this is , a lytell merely to mokke hym , than wyth odyouse ernest argumentes , seryousely to preace vppon hym . Whyche I wolde also be very loth to do , for chargyng of myn owne conscyence . And therfore in all thynges that me thynke are of greate weyght , though I touche his wordis , I accuse not his own mynde & intent For in good fayth I haue of that man good trust , that he meneth no wurse , but wold all thyng were well hym self / but euer more my mynde geueth me , that some wyly shrewes abuse the good mannes simplicyte .

The .x. chapyter .

HIs .x. chapyter begynneth in the xxxiii . leaf , wherin he towcheth certayne wordis of myne , wryten in the .xxvii. chapyter of myne apologye , that begynneth fo. 162. wherin he varyeth not mych with me , sauynge in that I say that yf the prelates of the chyrch wold wythdrawe from theyr worldely contenaunce , as is kepynge of honestley men in theyr seruyce , and kepynge of a good wurshypfull table , and wold bestow theyr plate & the moste parte of all theyr mouables at ones vppon poore folke , and yerely after the moste of theyr yerely reuenus to ( of whiche mynde I sayd I durste warraunt well that some prelates be , yf that wolde as I saye there , amende all these grudges ) that I durste be bolde to warraunt as well also , that yf the prelates so dyd , the selfe same folke that now grudge and call them proude for theyr countenaunce , wold than fynde as great a grudge , & call them ypochrytes for theyr almoyse , and wolde saye that they spende vppon noughty beggers the good that was wont to kepe good yomen , and that therby they both enfeble and also dyshonour the realme .

Vppon these wordes of myn this good man maketh me forsothe a full goodly sermon , in the .xxxv. leaf of his booke / where he begynneth it with these wordes , I can not se. And veryly yf he had there left & gone no ferther : it had ben well inough . For as for the thyng that he speketh of , it appereth by hys wordes he can not se very well in dede .

Bycause chryst commaundeth in the gospell , that we shall not iudge / and that saynt Poule sayth also , who art thou that iudgest another mannes seruaunt / and agayne byddeth vs that we iudge not before the tyme / al whiche places are vnderstand of iugyng certayne and determinate persons to do euyll , in the thynges that we se them do , where the thynges be but indyfferent of them selfe , and maye be done not euyl onely but well also : this good man therfore layeth these textys to touche me , for iudgyng that some folke whom I neyther assigne by name , nor as yet knowe not who they be , wyll do euyll hereafter , by mysse iudgynge other men .

I wene verely that saynt Poule hym selfe , at the tyme whan he forbode vs to ●iudge before the tyme , did euyn than iudge , that some wolde after that misse iudge and , iudge before the tyme to .

And albe it that our sauyour saith that who so call hys brother fole : is gylty to the fyre ● yet he ment not of him that wold say , that there were some folys abrode in the worlde . For yf he so ment : than wolde there not tenne fyrys be payne inough for hym that wrote these wordes in the scrypture : There are of folys an infynyte nomber .

And bycause this good man vseth somtyme thys fygure of examynacyon , I wolde wytte of mayster More thi● & that , I wolde nowe wytte thys one thynge of thys good man . Suche sawtes as he fyndeth wyth the spyrytualty wryten in hys boke of dyuysyon : whyther dyd he than iudge that some of the spyrytualtye wolde fall in them any more after or not ? If he iudged that all theyr fantasyes towarde those fawtes were all redy passed before , and that none of them wolde neuer do more so : than hadde he lytel cause to write all that wurke vppon theym .

And vn the tother syde yf he iudged that some of them wolde afterwarde do some such thynges agayne , eyther but yf he gaue theym warnynge , or ellys though he dyd , as I dare saye , what so euer hym selfe saye , in some of those thynges he dyd : than syth the tyme in which he iudged in his mynd , & made hym selfe therof sure , that some of theym wolde do some suche euyll thynges afterwarde , as were at the tyme of the same iudgement of hys mynde not comen , hym selfe fell as you se by hys owne argument , in the daynger of that prohybycyon that hym selfe bryngeth in , by whyche saynte Poule forbedeth and sayth : Nolite ante tempus iudicare . Iudge you not before the tyme .

Now yf he say that I tell whom I mene , though not by name : yet by a sygne and a token , in that I saye euyn the same wyll than call theym ypocrytes for theyr almoyse , that nowe call theym proude for theyr worldely countenaunce : he muste consyder , that I neyther tell nor can tell who be they / nor though I saye the same , I saye not yet all the same . And therfore no more mysse iudge any man determynately and in certayne , than he that wolde saye thus , as many men saye in dede : Euyn they that go now full fresshe , in theyr garded hosyn , and theyr gaye golden reuen shyrtes , and in theyr sylken sleuys , that nought haue to bere it out but gamynge , wyll ones I warraunt you fall fro gamynge to stelynge , & start strayt out of sylke into hempe . Thus sayeth and thus iudgeth ye wote well many a man / and yet meneth not that it shall so mysse happe them all , but that some shall amende and do better / and that yet hys worde wyll be veryfyed in many , & so doth it proue in dede / and he that so sayth before , is farre inough fro the dayngeour of all those textes whych this good man precheth to me .

But than he sayth ferther , that he trusteth that those prelates whom I saye I durste warraunt to be of such mynde , wyll not dyfferre theyr good purpose for no suche suspycyon that happely wyll neuer come , ne yet for no such vncherytable wordis , though they were spoken in dede . And thervppon he descendeth to the makyng of actys of perleament .

If those prelates that I mene of rekened them self very sure , that all the wytte and the lernynge that is in the worlde , or within this realme eyther , were eyther in theyr owne hedys , or in this good mannes and myne / which peraduenture for myne owne mynde colde agre well with this good man in this poynt , and aduise those prelates that I speke of , to folowe theyr owne mynde therin , and out of hande euyn so to do : than haue I lytell dowt but that they wold euyn so do in dede But some of them haue ofter ben as I suppose than onys , where they haue herde both wyse and good folke to , and peraduenture yet sholde here agayne yf it were as thys man wold haue it , spoken of in the playne open perleament , that wolde not fayle to dyssuade it , and laye no lytell causes why .

But I wyl not at this tyme with this good man entre in this mater , in to seryouse ernest argumentes . But I shall shew hym a good mery cause wherfore , that though I be of hys mynde therin , yet I dare not aduise them there to . The cause is , that I se them haue so greate desyre & feruent concupyscence towarde it , that I am aferde to counsayle theym folowe it , bycause of the scrypture that sayth , Post concupiscentias tuas ne eas . After thy concupyscences goo thou not .

I wyll make no lenger tale vpon this mater . For if you rede my .xxvii. chapyter , in whyche my wordes are that we now dyspute vppon : I truste you shall not thynke theym so very farre out of the way , but that they maye be wryten , without offence of Chrystes gospell well inough .

And also concernynge this word , proude worldely countenaunce , wherof we speke here : vouchesaufe good readers to rede my .xxx. chapyter of myne apologye , whych begynneth in the leaf .174 .

The .xi. chapyter .

HIs .xi. chapyter begynneth in the xxxvi . leaf / wherin fyrst he sheweth that I reherse ryght , and constre amysse thys worde of his . And therfore .

You shall fynde my wordes good readers vppon these whole wordes that he reherseth here , in the .xxxiiii. and .xxxv. chapyter of myne apologye / of whyche to tone begyyneth fo. 183 / & the tother begynneth fo. 184.

Here this man declareth that the worde of his boke , whyche here also he well & trewly reherseth , do not importe that hym selfe sayeth the thyng whych I by those wordes , and among other by thys worde therfore / afferme there that he sayth as of hym selfe / But he sayeth that the wordes proue playne , that he sayeth yt , but onely of the reporte of mych other folkes thynkynge , and not as of hys owne sayenge .

Surely neyther nowe , nor in any place of myne apologye , I neyther haue done nor intende to charge thys man , that his mynde & purpose was suche in his intent , as the great lykelyhed of his wordes , wold geue men occasyon to thynke . But vn the tother syde , that the wordes haue geuyn me good occasyon and suffycyent , to saye as I there haue sayde : who so rede the sayd two chapyters of myne apologye , shal by the whole cyrcumstaunce of the mater very wel I suppose perceyue . And you shall ouer that , yf after those two chapyters redde , you retourne to his owne declaracyon here in hys .xi. chapyter , wel perceyue also that to kouer slyly that ouersyghte of his ( for surely I thynke yt was none other ) he leueth oute properly in one place this worde therfore wheruppon a good pyece of all the mater hangeth . For in the ende of the .xxvi. leaf so , thus he handeleth wylyly the mater .

And in that he sayth , that I saye playnely those worde● my seflfe / he sayth playnely agaynste the ●etter of the sayde treatyse / whyche ye that they haue punished many persō● , which mych peple haue iudged them to do vppon wyll / and not that I sayd so my selfe .

Now good readers in this rehersall of hys own worde , he reherseth his own wordes wrong . For here he leueth oute as I told you the worde that maketh the mater . Whyche he rehersed hym self in the whole context before . For his wordis were not , that they haue punished many persons , whych mych peple haue iuged them to do vpon wyl , but that therfore they haue punyshed many persons / whyche mych people haue iudged them to do vppon wyl &c. Nowe when he sayth hym selfe that they haue punyshed many therfore , that is to wyt for the same cause , and hathe before also shewed a cause of his owne dyuynacyon to , & hath vsed the same word therfore in the same fasshyon before / and this worde therfore which sygnifyeth for the same cause , hath here in his laste clause nonecessarye place to the complement of the sentence folowyng : it appereth that he sayth therin two thynges , bothe that they therfore , that is to say for the same cause next before spoken of , the cause that him self ther imagineth , haue punished many / and also that ( as he sayth yt so ) myche people iudged the same .

And this shall you the more clerely marke , yf you tourne these wordes . And therfore they haue punyshed many whyche myche people &c. in to these wordis ( wherof the sentence is allone ) And for that cause they haue punyshed many whyche myche people &c.

And therfore , that is to saye for that cause whych I before told you , that is to wyt that you shold not perceyue thys poynte , this man in hys laste rehershall as you haue herde , bryngynge the thynge to the tryall , lefte his therfore oute . But reade my sayd two chapyters / & than as for the sentence of his open wordes , I trust you shall byleue me . As for the secrete meanyng of his mynde , I pray you byleue hym . For so that you byleue not the shrewd wordes of hys boke , I wolde to chose you sholde byleue well of the good man hym selfe .

Now where he saith in the .xxxvii. leaf , that he thynketh I chaunge his mater , bycause I wolde be lothe to haue yt reported , that myche people take yt so : veryly I chaunge not his mater . But trouth yt is that I am loth to haue that thyng so reported about . For trewly the report abrode is nought all though yt were not vntrew .

And were as for the farther maintenaunce of hys mater , he sayth that yf I make serche therin to knowe the trouthe , I shall fynde that myche people take yt so , that many whyche haue ben punyshed for heresye , the spyrytualtye haue done yt of no loue but of wyll , for such euyll mynde as in the booke ys there ymagyned of them : he hath of lykelyhed hym selfe made serche to fynde yt so . For as for me though I go not aboute to serche that poynte of purpose : yet I haue talked wyth many one in this meane whyle , & yet I thanke god it is not my fortune to fynde out that same mych people that take yt so . And yf there were myche people that so dyd , yt were theyre owne faute / wherin I can not deuyse what the spyrytualty myght do to chaunge theym , but onely praye god to mende theym .

And as for me , yf there were myche people that so toke yt , as I truste in god veryly there is not : I wolde as my dutye were be surely very sorye for theym / but in thys cause of trouth , trewely I wolde not flater theym . For though that sorte of people were neuer so myche in dede : yet is the trouth in that poynt so clere agaynste theym , that yf theyre myndes were suche , yt were bothe great shame for theym to saye yt , and also great synne to thynke yt .

And surely that theyre sayenge ys false and noughte in hys owne secrete iudgement : you maye se good reders by this that he laboureth so sore to put yt from hym selfe , and wolde be so lothe to haue yt taken for hys owne . And therfore whyle hym selfe thought theyre sayeng so false , he sholde not haue told yt after them . Nor nowe sholde he not sende me to serche and seke theym , but to saue hys owne honesty / leste men myght thynke he fayned , he sholde seke out & brynge forthe some of those shrewd sayers hym selfe .

A nother thynge thys man toucheth in the same chapyter , concernynge that seconde sorte of people whome I saye in some places of myne Apologye , that thys man calleth polytyques . And here he declareth that he doth not so / and proueth yt by lyke wordes spoken of a good mannys mouthe by an hypocryte , of whome a man maye say : Thys man vseth hym self as he were a vertuouse man / and yet cal hym not vertuouse . And so myght this man saye that they spake heresyes as of polycye , and yet call theym not polytyque .

But here must he now consyder , that who so speke suche wordes in such fashyon by an hyprycryte , sayth yt in hys desprayse and in detestacyon of suche hypocrysye / and therfore he that so sayeth , sheweth that by such wordes he taketh not the hypocrite for vertuouse . And therfore reade good readers this mannys whole processe of hys thre sortes of people to gether , whych you shall fynde in the .xxi. chapyter of myne apologye fo. 123 / and then yf you fynd his wordes of theyr spekyng● suche heresyes as of polycye , in lyke maner spoken by hym in dysprayse of heretyques , as he putteth here his sample of those wordes spoken by a good man in dysprayse of hypocrites / & not spoken by a way of geuynge theym by that worde as of polycye a colourable excuse for defence of sewynge theyre heresye : than am I contente , that euery man take yt that I mysse reporte hym shamefully . And ellys I truste loke in all the places in whyche I speke therof , and you shal soon iudge , that vpppon hys wordes vsed to suche purpose as he there vseth theym : I may wel vse the wordis of hys polytykes in suche wyse●as I vse yt .

And as for the tynkar and the tyler , that he speketh of in the ende of the chapyter / and sayth god forbede but that they● were dysmyssed and wente home aboute theyr besynesse , yf they can by any reasonable and trewe allegeaunce , so order theym selfe , that yt maye appere that they oughte to be dysmyssed of iustyce : therin holde I well wyth hym and god forbede ellys to / for els myghte they lese betwene theym , the tone the pryce of hys trewell , and the tother of his clouted ketyll . But loke good readers in myne Apology the .xlviii. chapyter , whych begynneth fo. 272 / and that done , I doute not but you shall fynde for the tylare and the tynkare / for heresy there called in of offyce , this good word so spoken here , but a very vayne worde of offyce / and that the tynkare wolde haue tynked oute of hys pannes botome , a reason that wolde at the leste wyse rynge a lytle better then thys .

The .xii. chapyter .

HIs .xii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxviii . leaf / whych bycause yt ys a good swete sermone & a shorte , made vnto my selfe , to put me in remembraunce howe I shold ●ere the lyke lyght fautis of other men , as I some tyme fall in my self : I shal take his chapyter in here euyn hole . Lo good readers thus yt sayth .

MAyster More in the .217 . leaf of hys Apology , speking of defautes , that as he thynketh , shulde haue ben leyde for causes of thys dyuysyon , concludeth thus : If there be such a dyuysyon : wherby it appereth that he doubteth , whether there be any diuysyon or not : for this coniunccion , yf , purporteth alway a doubte . And after in the same Apologye , fo. 241. he confesseth playnely , that there is a dyuysyon / and maketh no doute at yt : and he calleth yt there the late spronge dyuysyon . And so in one place to make a doute , whether there be suche a dyuysyon or not / and in a nother place to agre , that there ys suche a dyuysyon / semeth to be a varyaunce and contradyccyon in yt selfe : howe be yt surely I do not intende to laye that varyaunce to hym as for any notable defaute : For a lyke thynge may soon happen in any man by a lyght ouersyght . But the cause why I speke of yt is this , to put hym in remembraunce / that he hereafter ought the rather to beare suche lyghte defaute● of o●her the more charytably / syth he hym selfe hath lyke wyse ben oue● sene . For we be all ●rayle ignorant and vnstable / though we be estymed and taken as angels in cure conuersacyon . And therfore ys yt sayde in the fyrste boke of the folowynge of Cryste the .xvi. chapyter , that no man is in this worlde wythout defaute , no man wytho●te burden , no man suffycyent to hym selfe , no man wyse ynough of hym selfe . Wherfore yt beh●ueth eche one of vs to beare the burden of other , to comforte other , to helpe other , to enform● other , and to instructe and admonysh other in al charytie . And yf we wyll note well the sayde wordes , we shall the sooner lerne thys lesson / to do in al thynges as we wolde be done to : and to do nothyng that we wold not haue done to be . And that is as I tak● yt one of the moste souerayne doctrynes that is / to instructe a man how he shall in e●ery thynge conce●nynge hys neyghbour , kepe hym selfe in a clere conscyence , lerne yt who so may● .

Lo good readers , fyrste he bryngeth forth myne ouersyght , in contradyccyon vsed betwene myne owne wordes / and after wyth good wordes and fayre , excuseth my faute , by suche ouersyght of frayltye as maye soone happen in a man . And then he putt●th me after in remembraunce , that I muste bere suche thynges the more charitably in other men , syth I am ouersene lykewyse my selfe . He fareth in all this tale , as though we sat to gether playeng at post . For fyrste he casteth my contradiccion as a vye , to wyt whyther I wold geue yt ouer with a face . And bycause that wyll not be , falleth after to treatye , and wold fay●e parte the stacke , and diuide all such ouersyghtes betwene vs . But all this is in vayne / for I am as sure of this game and there lay . xx.li . vppon yt , as he that hathe thre acys in his hande .

For loke good readers in his own fyrste chapyter of thys booke of hys and there shall you se the thyng tha● shall serue me , suffycyently shew●● euyn by hys owne wordes , that there ys no suche contradyccyon in myne . And than loke myne auswere to the same / and than shall you se yt yet more clerely . Or ellys yf any man be lothe to tourne the leuys , and loke bakke : ye shall nede to take no besynesse in tournynge bakke at all . For he soyleth hys argument hym selfe agaynste hym selfe , euyn in the makynge therof , and all wyth one worde vnware .

For nowe rede yt agayne / and you shall se that he sayeth hym selfe , in the tone place I saye , If there be any suche dyuysyon . And so bycause thys coniunccyon If , he sayth inporteth all waye a doute : therfore he sayth that fo .217 . I doute whyther there be any suche dyuysyon or not . And after he sayth that in the tother place I confesse that there ys a dyuysyon / and call yt there the late sprongen dyuysyon . Lo nowe he forgetteth thys lytle shorte worde , this monasyllable , Suche , whych he rehersed fyrste in bryngynge forthe my fyrste place / and then by and by , eyther of forgetefulnes or ellys of wylynesse , leueth oute in hys illacyon that he maketh vppon the same wordes of myne .

Nowe good readers you se well that to saye there is a dyuysyon , and to saye there ys no suche dyuysyon , be nothynge contrarye at all . For I dyd in dede not deny but that some dyuysyon there was , that ys to wytte some lytle varyaunce in some place begonne , and by some fewe naughtye folke blowne forthe to farre ( For a lytle waye ys to farre in suche a thyng ) . But than meane I a dyuysyon such as yt ys , not suche a dyuysyon as thys man by hys booke maketh yt . I maye well wythoute contradyccyon saye to hym , There ys a dyuysyon / and yet saye that there ys no suche dyuysyon as he speketh of . For yt is not all one to saye there ys a dyuysyon , and ●o saye there ys suche a dyuysyon .

Nowe yf I wolde stycke wyth hym vpon tryflys : I coulde proue hym that If , dothe not alwaye purporte a doute , as he sayeth that yt alwaye dothe , but ys sometyme vsed to conferme a certayntye . As yf a man say he that dyeth in dedely synne shal go to the deuyll , yf goddes word be trewe , douteth not of the trouthe of goddes worde / but by the trouthe therof , meaneth to conferme the damnacyon of theym that dye in dedely synne .

But I saye not this as though yt sholde be lyke in myne . For I do not in dede take If there in such fashion . And therfore I wyll not do here by If , as thys man doth by As , in hys chapyter nexte byfore , in heresyes spoken as of polycye / vsynge the sample of wordes spoken by a good man in reprochynge of hypocrysee , to be lyke hys owne wordes spoken in the mynyshynge of theyre blame , that vnder suche pretexte of polycye / wolde speke and sow aboute playne and open heresye . I nede here no suche wayes for my wordes . For here haue you sene your selfe by his owne wordes , that there ys in my wordes , no contradyccyon at all .

The .xiii. chapyter .

HIs .xiii. chapiter begynneth in the xxxix . leaf / and by the rehersynge of diuerse wordes of his owne in dyuers other places of his boke , here he declareth his mynde that he entended not in his boke of diuysyon , to brynge in among the people any hatered agaynste the spyrytualtye .

Now in dede I do my self declare expressely , in many places of myne apologye , that what so euer wordes I speke therin , yet I ment euer more th entent of hys boke and not of hys person . And all though that in some places I say the pacyfyer here doth this or that , to this euyll purpose or that : yet I mene euer , the dede his , the malyce of the purpose some other wyly shrewys / whyche not beynge fully of so good catholyke mynde as I thynke all waye this man is hym self ( which openly dysprayseth these new broched heresyes , and with detestacyon of them reherseth them by name ) haue abused his playn simplycyte / makyng him wene good sowle , thou while he dyd put in of his own good mynde , these good wordes whych he reherseth here , and with them here & there in some sondry places pretyly powder the boke , it coulde not be taken that there were any hurt ment in the hole worke togyther , how euyll wordes and how malycyouse so euer the sotle shrewys made hym stuffe vp the boke with bysyde . Was not that a synful wily way of them , to begyle a good symple soule so ? For I wysse it is eth to se , that yf the good man were not of hym self very simple & playn , those dowble wyly shrewes coulde neuer deceyue hym so , as to make hym wene that these wordes whych he reherseth here in his .xiii. chapyter , were any maner token that his boke of diuisyon , ment not to brynge the clergye in hatered amonge the people .

For who were there that so intendynge , wolde yet for shame vtterly say that there were none good / and not rather to kepe his credence in slawnderynge the body , wolde caste in sometyme an excepcyon of some ? In suche crafte is no great sleyght . It is but a comen playne poynt , and as easy to spye as a longe nose vpon a lytell face / specyally whyle as clerely as he sayth that there be many good , yet as you maye se folio .238 . of myne apology , he sayth playnely that it is harde to fynde any one , with out that poynt , that ( yf he saye therin trew ) the very best is very nought , and as badde as a very best .

And for the ferther profe of this point , rede myne answere to hys .xvii. chapyter in thys boke .

And where he speketh here of the fere that he wold euery man sholde haue of the leste censures of the chyrche , as though he therin ment myche the fauour of spyrytuall men : consyder the place euyn here in hys new boke , where he speketh of inquysycyons o● heresyes in his .xvii. chapyter , and you shall well perceyue that they that made hym there put those wordes in , ment lytell good to the clergye . For it is there layed in a mater full chyldyshly to theyr charge / as though they wolde haue all the iustyces of the peace and all the iuryes of the realme , accursed for enquyrynge of heresye .

But yet is it of all thyngꝭ a v●ry specyall pleasure to se how he vseth here for a playne apparent profe of hys good mynde towarde the spyrytualty , that he wisheth wel for them , and prayeth god to sende them habundauntely zele of sowles , pitye , good doctryne , and deuowt prayour . And sayth that than a new lyght of grace sholde shortely shyne &c. and that he sayth also , that it is great pytye and mych to be lamented , that the spyrytualtye do not faste and praye and do other good dedes , to ceace the dyuysyon withall / but that all that euer they do therin moste comenly , is that they take it that they that fynde defawte at theyr abusyons and mysse order , loue no prestes / but do all of malyce that they do , to destroye the chyrche and to haue theyr goodes and possessyons them selfe / and that therfore the clergye thynke it a good dede to se them punyshed / and therfore ( that is to saye for that same cause ) haue they punyshed many persons , which mych people iudge to haue ben done of wyll &c. And sayth also that they do continue styl after theyr old course , pretendyng by confederacyes , worldly polycye , and strayte correccyons , to rule the peple / where he vseth these thynges whyche I haue here rehersed out of his .xiii. chapiter of this his newe boke , and somwhat made them more playne , with addyng therto his owne other wordes wryten in his diuysyon / as you maye rede in myne apologye fo. 158. in the .xxvi. chapyter , and answered there at length , in the same chapyter and diuerse other in order there ensuyng , of which this man hath answered to some very lytell , and to the moste parte and the chyefe parte no thynge : now is he so symple , that he vseth the same thynges / for a profe that he bereth the clergye very good wyll and mindeth not to brynge them in ob●oquy / whyche he wold we shold take for a thing playnely proued , bycause he pytyeth & lamenteth theym therin , and so bytterly prayeth god to make them good and amende them .

Thys good man many tymes taketh recorde of his owne conscyence that he meneth well , in suche thyngꝭ as his wordes make many good men wene , that he ment very nought .

And therfore wyll I now be bolde in thys poynt , to take recorde of hys owne conscyence , whyther hym self , yf one that knewe hys name , wold wryte suche a worke so to wchynge hym , as hys wurke of dyuysyon toucheth there the clergye / and wold therin vnder so many Some sayes , say that he were as euyll as he saith there that they be ( for worse coulde lyghtely no man saye ) wolde hym selfe hold hym satysfyed , and thynke that the wryter ment hym none harme , bycause he powdered hys shrewde slaunderouse some sayes , wyth lamentynge and pityenge that the man is no better .

And wold he wene by his trouth , that the wryter ment not to cal him gracelesse , bycause he prayed god habundauntely to sende hym grace ? nor to call hym witlesse , bycause he prayeth god send hym wyt ? Surely yf he can thynke so : than shall he well shewe hym selfe so simple a sowle , as men may well se that some wily shrewys begyle hym . And on the tother syde yf he be wyser than to thynke so : than he well sheweth hym self more wily in thys same .xiii. chapyter of hys , than to meane so well in his wurcke of dyuysyon as he wolde here make men wene .

Now where he saith these wordis Also I saye not in all the sayde treatyse , that the spyrytua●tye make confederacyes agaynste the temporaltye / but I saye that they contynue styll after the olde course , in not doynge good dedes / but pretendyng by confederacyes , worldely polycye , & straight correccyons , to rule the people .

Who coulde wryte thus , but eyther he that were a man of very innocent symplenesse , or he that entendeth to mocke of a shrewd wily dowblenese For ( sauynge that hys worde pretendyng signifyeth not in dede the thyng that he for lacke of language pretendeth here therby ) to go aboute not to do good to the people , but by confederacyes with wylynesse and strayght correccyons , to rule the peple : what thynge calleth he this but confederacyes agaynst the people .

How be it syth thys chapyter goth but to the dyschargynge of hys owne personall entent , that he ment not hym selfe malycyously what so euer hys booke speke : I wyll not therfore wrestle agaynst it mych , but wolde he were well byleued in that thynge . But yet yf you rede the places of myne apologye , and compare them with such partes of hys boke as I there speke of : ye shall well and clerely se , that though the manne in his own mynde ment it not him self , yet the thynge that I saye was the menynge of hys boke .

The .xiiii. chapyter .

HIs .xiiii chapyter begynneth in the xiii . leaf . In the begynnyng therof he laboreth to proue that he dyd not ( as I in myne apologye , saye that he dyd ) go about in his boke of diuysyon , to make men wene that the spyrytual iudgis in this realme handeled men for heresye so cruelly , that all the worlde had cause to wonder and grudge therat / which thynge that I shold so say , this good man myche meruayleth at .

For I sayed no more ( sayth he ) But that it were pitie it sholde be so , and that it sholde be trewe that is reported , that there sholde be such a desyre in spyrytuall men to haue men ●biure , or to haue men haue extreme punyshement for heresye / as it is sayde● that there is .

Rede good reders the .xlv. chapyter of myne apologye begynnyng fo. 243● and than shall you fynde this answere of his a very bare naked thing This man answereth here as though he trusted that all the worlde were woodcokkys saue hym self / and that hys fayre fygure of some saye , were so wylyly founde , that men had not the wytte to se therby what his booke meneth , & what wurke it goth about . But this I dowte not , but that yf eyther hym self or such another man , wolde deuise me suche another boke , eyther agaynste the nobylyte of the realme , or agaynste the iudges of the same , or agaynste the hygh court of perleament it self , which were soone done yf a man in lyke wyse lyste to slaunder & to bylye them / nor it could not I wote wel what so euer he sayd therin , be lyghty wurse or more false thanne that booke of hys dyuysyon , concernynge the poynt that we speke of , that is to wyt thys false slaunder of the spyrytuall iudges in mysse handelynge men for heresye , as it hath ofter than ones before the lordes of the kynges most honorable counsayle vpon lyke false bylles and complayntes of partyculare persons by good examynacion ben proued / and than if he that wolde make I say of the nobylyte , the iudges , or the perleament , suche another boke wolde brynge in all his false talys agaynst them vnder the selfe same fayre fygure of some say , and many say , & they saye / and than say that hym selfe wold say no piece therof , but onely that it were pytie that it sholde be trewe , that it were so as many folke reportei is so , and than preche and pray god send them the grace that they do not so : I dare be bolde to saye that there is no wyse man , but he wolde bothe soone se and saye , that the man wyth suche false lesynges went about to dyffame and slaunder them , and make the people wene that it were so .

Than after this thynge so fetely skused : he declareth hys wordes agayne , whyche he spake in his dyuysyon of spekynge heresyes of lyghtnesse , or of a passyon . And bycause I answered hym in myne apolygye , that yf such thynges shold be excused by lyghtnesse & by passyons , than myght there passe by myche lewdenesse and myche myschyef to / the begynnynge wherof groweth of lewd lyghtnesse & of euyll passyons : herin he sheweth that there is dyfference in dedys , and that some be more & some be lesse . And bycause I did put for samples , manslaughter and aduowter , whiche he thought was to high to be lykened to spekyng & talkyng heresye : he bryngeth it somwhat agayne to bace , and putteth other samples of one spekyng an angry worde , & yet wolde not kyll one / & one that hath a passion of aduowtry , & yet doth not the dede / & sayth that his treatise ment not obstinate dedely passyons , but passyons of ignor●unce & of frayltie , & done for lacke or good aduisement .

As for his passyon of ignoraunce , he may put vp agayne . For what so euer he say , he shall not fynde I dare warraunt hym whyle he lyueth , but that the thynges that heretykes are punyshed for , be such thynges as be well & openly knowen for heresyes , & to haue ben before condempned for heresyes by the comen knowen doctryne of the whole catholyke chyrch .

Now as touchynge hys passyons for frayeltye & for lacke of good aduisement : doth there no man kyll a nother euyn sodaynly vppon a passyon of angre , for lacke of good aduisement ? doth neuer none vnthryftes vppon a passyon of lechery , sodaynly fall together in aduowtry for lacke of good aduisement ?

Ye wyll this man saye , but these fo●ke do the dede . That is very trouth in dede . But yet they do the dede , but of a passyon of frayltye , for lacke of good aduisement . In that aduou●ry , the malyce is the lacke of goodnesse in the wyl to the kepyng of goddis commaundementes And yet euyn in those passyons to , though the ferther dede be not done , no man neyther kylled nor stryken , nor none aduowtry done in dede , though the lawes of the worlde for lacke of power to loke into y●●arte , can not punyshe the bare entent of suche thynges : yet our sauyour saith hym selfe very sore wordes therin , and sayth that hym selfe taketh theyr wylles for theyr dedys .

But now in heresye the wordes be the worke . For not onely the spekyng , but also the defendyng therof , is in wordes to .

But a man sayth he , maye speke heresye of lyghtnesse , & of a passyon of frayltye , & yet not entend● to fall fro the fayth . So may a man speke very lewde and rygh●e traytorouse wordes by hys prynce to , of a passyon and of a frayltye , without an inward entent and purpose to procure his destruccyon . But than wyll this man peraduenture say , that than be suche wordes yet no treason , without some maner of ouert & open actuall dede therwith . Whyther they be treason or not , yet in any englysshe boke that I wold put in prente , I wolde as thus aduised , aduise euery man for fere of treason , beware of all suche lewd language / and not vnder colour to teche the iudgys theyr part , go tell the people without necessyte , that though they talke traytorouse wordes , yet it ys no treason , as this good man in hys booke of diuysyon telleth them , that to talke heresyes is none heresye

Nowe as I sayed before , concernynge heresye whyche is the treason to god , the outwarde acte therof by whyche men muste iudge whyther the manne fall fro the fayth or not , standeth in the wordes . And therfore both wysedome and reason wyll , that folke well be ware vpon the parell of heresye , that they forbere all talkyng of heresye , as maye declare theyr mynde that they byleue suche heresye .

That I wyl well agre wyl this good man say . But than I wolde they sholde be ware , by meane of charytable warnynge geuen to theyr persons . I wolde veryly wene , that in a matter so heyghnouse and of suche weyght , wherof so mych harme may growe by the sufferaunce , the spyrytuall lawe that geueth hym leue to abiure at the fyrste , and in so great a cryme saueth ones his lyfe , geueth hym a warnynge as charytable and as larg , as in a cryme so perylous reson can wel bere . And that shold we soon fele , yf we wolde geue the lyke ly bertye for ones warnynge , to euery lesse cryme than that / & shal shortly fele it in heresyes , if besydes tha● we geue theym lesse fere and more lybertye in bolde talkynge and teachynge without other parel than warnynge .

For as for the order of warnynge that this man here prouydeth , in this xiiii . chapyter of his newe boke , takynge a coloure and a pretexte of the gospell of Chryste , that speketh of an order of monycyons , requyrynge a tracte of tyme , before any open denuncyacyon : I wyl not mych stycke vpon . For I purpose not to make a longe processe vpppon euery founde pyece of his deuyses , wherin thye good man is content to lese tyme and spyl paper . But I wyl say this and say trouth , that th ordinaryes , of this order that he speketh , do vse in dede as myche as may wel be borne , and sometyme I fere me more to .

For thys muste thys good man vnd●rstande , that thys good softe slowe sober order , that he descrybeth here , may not all , & alway , be kept , neyther in heresye nor treason , nor some other great crymes neyther , wythoute great hurte and damage to the comen weale , and vtter losse and destruccyon of many a good symple soule , that sholde by thys order alwaye kepte , paryshe in the meane whyle .

Nor our sauyour ment not in hys wordes , that if I wyst one that were walkynge aboute myschyefe , that wolde go geue such drynke about as shold poysen them that dronke therof , that thanne I sholde vse all that tracte of time , rather then cause hym be taken vp by tyme at the fyrst sope that I se him geue any man to syppe vpon . Nor that tract is not therfore to be vsed wyth them , that speke and boldely talke heresyes about , & therby do plainly teche them , though they byd not the herers lerne them . For ( as saynte Poule speketh of suche heresyes ) euyl communicacion corrupteth good maners . whyche wordes though the greke poete Menander ment by the communycacyon of other fleshely lewdnesse : yet the blessed apostle vsed them and applyed theym specially , to the lewd communycacyon of heresyes , whych wyth suche bolde noughty talkynge crepeth forth and corrupted ( as saint Poule also sayth ) lyke a corrupt canker . And therfore as I saye , suche a long sober tracte before theyr callyng by the ordynarye course of the law , as not alwaye to be vsed of necessyte wyth euery suche maner man , and let theym poysen other good symple soules in the meane season , whyche they may do percase with suche communycacyon , though they neyther mynded in theyr owne harte , to make any other men heretykes , nor to be he retyques theym selfe .

And yet wolde there besyde this , some suche as well wyste theyr myscheuouse dealyng to be suche , and so wel able to be playnly proued , as the ordinarye coulde not without goddes dyspleasure let theym after passe vnpunyshed / wolde at the fyrste worde spoken by the ordynarye to hym at large , flyt oute of that place / and as I haue in myne Apologye sayd , and as we se yt often proued , go kepe lyke scoles in a nother .

But yet because I haue herd say euen whyle I was wrytynge thys , that the myld sober order whych this good man hath here in this chapyter dyuysed , is very wel lyked , and hath bene wel praysed wyth some suche folke as my self haue had some communycacyon with ere this : I wyl therfore not hyde yt nor kepe yt awaye from you , but geue you good reders here euen his owne wordes , fo. 45. he sayth .

And nowe wyll I saye a lytle farther in this mater / concernynge suche wordes , that ys to say , that yf any man now in thys daungerous tyme , whyle this dyuysyon contynueth , wyll shew vnto the ordynary that he herde any speke wordes , that as he thought s●ode not wyth the catholyque faythe / and the ordynarye mysse lyketh the wordes also : I wolde than thynke / that yf he vppon whome the informacyon is made , be suche a man / that he that complayneth of hym may conueniently speke to hym wythout daunger / that than the ordynarye shal aduyse hym to kepe the mater secrete , yf yt be yet secrete / and not openly knowen : and that he shall than charytable aske of hym / what he ment by these worde● . And than when the questyon is asked hym , yf he make so reasonable an answere / that yt soundeth ●o no heresye / than is the mater answered . And yf he auowe the wordes / and yet they be in dede agaynst the catholyque fayth : than yt semeth good / that he that accused hym , folowe the gospell / and take wytnesse wyth hym / and efte charytably gyue hym monycyon therof . And yf he wyll yet stande styll opynatynely in his opynyon / and not accept the good monycyon of the other : than I thynke it good that he agayne informe the ordynarye therof / and than yt semeth to be conuenyent that the ordynarye sende for hym / not as for a man yet notoryousely knowen or detected for an heretyque / but to knowe farther , whether yt be trew as the other hath reported or not : and yf he fynde yt trewe by suffycyent profe / or by hys owne confessyon and he wyll not be reformed , than yt semeth couenyent / that he vppon the wytnes of the other / be p●nyshed as he hath des●●ued . And yf he wyll be by the ordynary secretely reformed : then yt semeth good , that he depart without any o●●n penaunce : but what were conuenient to be ther b●ne in that mater , I wyll commytte yt to other .

Consyder now good readers the cōmodile of this order . You se that he speketh of one that speketh such wordes , as to the herers seme heresye . For both he so taketh them that informeth th ordinary of them , and so doth th ordinary to . Nowe may you perceyue by the progresse of his deuyce , that though there were mo thān one that herd hym , or mo than twayne , or tenne eyther : yet wold he not that the ordinary shold send for him / but fyrst assay by some such as herd him , what he wyll saye there to when he ys asked the questyon what thynge hym selfe m●nt therby . And then if he haue the wyt to say that he ment in his wordis but suche a thynge as that meanynge soundeth to none heresies ( which wit heretykes ynough haue ) than ys all the mater answered . For than ye wote wel a wyly heretyque by this wyse order , may be bolde with gloses redy proued , so saye what he wyll and where he wyll . For the ordynarye maye not sende for hym to laye those ●eretycal wordes to his charge , and to consyder vpon the cyrcumstaunce of his dealynge in suche talkynge , peraduenture in diuerse places vsed whether he ment as hym selfe declareth yt , or ment to teache the thynge that he spake , and to hepe his declaracyon in store for a scuse . This fyrst poynte alone of thys good mannys order yf yt were surely obserued , were ynough to fyl an whole towne shortely ful of heresyes .

Than goth he farther to a second poynte , that yf he that spake heresyes , wyl when he is asked the questyon auowe theym : yet shal not he that herd hym resorte vnto th ordynarye but go fetche wytnesses fyrste , before whome yf the felow be so folysh to confesse them , and so frantike as to auow them , than this good man geueth theym leue to go tell th ordinary the tale and accuse hym . But nowe yf he haue the wytte byfore the wytnesses to lye and saye that he neuer sayd theym , or to saye that he wil saye so no more : then is all the mate● yet saufe ynough agayne / it shall neuer nede that euer the ordynary here any more worde of hym / but let hym go forthe and vse that fashyon styll , in as many companyes as he cometh . For that ye wote wel can do no hurt . But and yf euery man to whome he speketh heresye secretly , and secretely wolde make mo heretyques , shold secretely enforme the ordynarye / & that he sholde vpon .xx. suche secrete informacyons , afterwarde call hym forthe openly , and after vppon theyre open deposycyons , openly make hym abiure , and beare a fagot or accurse hym for hys obstynacye / and after an whole yeres sufferaunce fynally for his immedicable malyce , as a desperate wreche delyuere hym to the seculare handes , where a fagotte sholde beare hym : thys were a cruell delynge of the ordynarye , and a mysse handelynge of a good honest man for heresye .

And yet goeth he farther a lytle , that though he holde yt and auow his heresyes afore the witnesses : th ordynarye sholde not yet for all that procede agaynst hym openly , but speke with hym secretely . And though he auow theym before hym selfe to : yet sholde he not by thys good mannys aduyse , procede agaynste● hym by ordynarye meanes openly , but let hym departe wythoute open penaunce , yf the felowe be so wyse as at laste ( rather than he wolde come therto ) saye that he wyl amende and wyll say such thynges no more .

But than after al this , what were conuenyent to be farther done he wil he sayth ●emyt vnto other men . And so were yt myche nede in dede . How be yt yf this order that he deuyse●h here , were wel obserued for so farre forthe as he goeth : I wene all the worlde coulde not well deuyse farther , suffycyentely to reforme and remedy the myschyefe that hys charytable deuyse wolde do .

How be it the beste is therin , that he deuyseth not this order for a thing to stande for euer / but for this tyme now he saith which is he sayth a daungerouse tyme , whyle thys dyuyuysyon contynueth .

But nowe so is yt good readers that whether this tyme be so daungerouse as he speketh of or no , or whether there be in this tyme suche dyuysyon as he maketh or no : sure it is I saye , that euyn in this same tyme heresyes begyn to growe a great deale faster than they haue bene wont in some other tymes past / and therfore is this tyme so mych the worse to vse ●uch order in , than were a nother time , wherin there were many fewer .

For yf this pacyfyer wyl nowe be so peasyble , as to deuise such an order that al myscheuous factyous folke shold be suffered in peace : he shall wyth his peasyble order ( yf yt were obserued ) brynge the worlde in that case , that good peasyble folke that fayne wold lyue in peace , shold not for such inquiete and vnrestful wreches without some rufle lyue in peace longe .

Were it not a wise order wene you if he wold in like wise deuyse for theuys the same softe charytable fashyon that he deuiseth here for heretikis ? that is to wyt that men shold to hym that had stolen an horse , or robbed an house , go geue hym a monicyon fyrst and then yf he saye that he dyd yt not or that he wolde do so no more , take all the mater for saufe / and than say that he wolde not haue that order all waye kepte , but onely in suche dayngerouse tymes as many folke wolde fall to thefte . For than were yt good to spare theim and speke them fayre , and suffer theym tyll they wolde waxe fewer of them selfe / and than after that , vse agaynste theym the lawis & the old order again . Wold not thys wyse waye trowe you do well in thefte ? For sothe yt were awaye as farre vnwyse & as farre agaynst reason in heresy , as eyther in theft or murder or any other maner cryme .

And surely me semeth that where he calleth this a dayngerouse tyme : he vseth a very daungerous worde / and to fere the ordynaryes wyth all , wolde make the worlde wene , that heretyques were here so many and so stronge , that th ordynaryes myght not nowe do theyre dutyes in subduynge heresyes , wythoute great daungeour . Wherin there is as great daungeour yet , and shall I dout not in the kynges graces days that now is , and longe mote be , as there ys in the parynge of an apple . Howe be yt I wyl not denye hym thys inded , but that yf suche daungerouse wordes of his dyuysyon , may make th ordynaryes aferd of theyre owne shawdow a whyle : yt may grow to some daunger at the laste .

But than goeth ●e farther with a nother remedye , that I truste in god shall neuer nede . For I truste in god there neuer shall in thys realme , any suche great personage fall into heresye , as th ordinary dare not procede accordynge to the law agaynste hym . Howe be yt in case yt shold happen● than this good man prouideth for the remedy ( to say the trouth ) very wel , that is to wyt that th ordynary sholde haue recourse vnto the kynge , that his hyghnes vppon petycyon made vnto hym , and informacyon geuyn hym , maye ( as no doute were there but he wolde ) wyth his royall assystence , prouyde a meane suffycyent , that the course of the lawe myght ꝓcede .

This is wel deuised . And here in he plaieth the good kow , & geueth v● a good galon of mylke . But than shal you se howe he playeth the shrewde know agayne , and turneth ouer the payle euyn by and by wyth his hele . For vppon this good deuise , he forth with addeth this shrewd sayeng to yt .

But as longe as there is an opynyon amonge the peple / that the ordinaryes & theyr offycers wil geue lytght credence vppon informacyons made to theym of heresye / and that they wyll noyse theym that be complayned on a● heretyques / before dew examynacyon in that behalfe ; so long wyll the peple grudge and peraduenture the kynge not geue hys assystence so redyly to haue them attached as he wolde do , yf he herde that the ordynaryes noysed no man to be an heretyque wythout dew examynacyon , as is before rehersed .

If this good man had as myche wyt as I se wel he lacketh : I wold wax euyll content with hym , that he shold ones conceyue any such opynyon of the kinges graciouse hyghnes , as that his grace wold any thynge be the more remysse to geue royall assystence vnto th ordinaries , about the attaching of such as are suspect of heresy , as longe as hys grace herde that th ordynaryes noysed that any man were an heretyque wythoute suche dewe examynacyon as this man afore rehersed . For the kynges hygh prudence very wel perceiueth , that if he sholde forbere tyl that tyme that he sholde here no suche thynge sayde by theym : yt were almoste as myche to say , as he shold geue no asystence agaynste heretykes , tyl al heretykes were gone . For neuer shall there lacke suche a false sedycyouse fame agaynste the ordynaryes , as longe as there are heretyques here & there to sowe it , and suche sedycyouse bokes of dyuysyon , with such vntrew Some sayes to blowe yt farther abrode .

The vntrouth of such false fame , hath ben before the kinges honorable counsayle of late well and playnely proued all redy , vppon sondry suche false complayntes by the kinges gracyouse commaundement examyned . And all be it that this is a thynge notoriousely knowen , and that I haue also my selfe in myne apologye spoken thereof , and that synnys that boke gone abrode , it hath ben in lyke wyse before the lordes well & playnely proued in mo maters a fresshe / and all be it that this water wessheth awaye all his mater : yet goeth euer this water ouer this goosys backe / & for any thynge that any man can do , no man can make it synke vnto the skynne that she maye ones fele it / but euer she shaketh such playne proues of with her fethers of Some say and they say the contrary . Is not this a prety proper way ? And therfore thus you se good reders , that this mannes deuicys in his order to be taken with suche as speke heresyes , be very vicyouse and haue they neuer so fayre a fleryng at the fyrste face : yet whan they be consydered well , they be founden farre worse than nought . And yet was I not mynded as you maye se , to haue examyned them so farre , sauynge that euyn whyle I was in writynge of this chapyter , and about to leue of : worde was brought me that thys deuyce of his order for heresye , was with some folke whom my self haue knowen , so specyally well commended . But yet wyll thys man say , & in effecte so he dothe , mayster More wyll not say for all thys that euery thynge that a man speketh whiche yf he obstynately wolde holde he w●re an heretyke , is inough to iudge euery such man an heretyke , as doth in any maner speke it .

I wyll not at thys tyme varye with this good man for that , nor dyspute with hym vppon the trouth of the tale , there be so many maner waies of spekynge . For a man maye speke therof in dysprayse therof . But this wyll I saye to hym . That tale and such other lyke , were they neuer so trewe , were yet as me semeth mych better out of his englysshe prented booke than in it .

For yf he thynke it necessary to wryte it , bycause of any folke whom he thynketh necessary to lerne it : eyther he meneth that they nede it , whiche are the spyrytuall iudges , or els the comen people . Now as for the iudges , veryly I haue knowen and do knowe many of them , & yet knewe I neuer none so symple of wyt , nor so farre vnlerned , but for any wyt or lernyng that I perceyue in this man , the wurste of theym wyste a greate dele better what perteyned vnto theyr parte and theyr dutye in suche poyntes as these are , than doth thys good man here .

Than yf he saye he putteth it in , bycause that though they knowe it they mysse vse it , and do the contrary and so do therby misse handle the kynges people , and put theym to cruell punyshement vniustely : than I aske hym how he proueth that lye to be trew ? Therto ye wote well he wyll brynge forth for the playne profe of his playn trouth in the mater his old thre wurshypfull wytnesses whiche stand yet all vnsworne that is to wyt Some saye , and They say , & Folke say . And than hath he now brought forth other two , whome he maketh as me semeth bothe as wytnesses & iudges to , that is the good sely sowle Symkyn Salem , and his ryght honest neyghbour brother Byzance . Well I am content I , that all his fyue wytnesses be sworen & wel examined , how they know the thyngꝭ that they reporte / & than those spyrytuall iudges of whom they shall so speke and proue , set it be layed vnto theyr charges . And yf you fynde of suche so many , and theyr dealynge so cruell or vniuste , as this man maketh it , or any thynge well towarde it : than am I content that ye shall for them byleue all the remanaunt the wurse . And yet is that I wysse somwhat with the most . And than am I content that you byleue also , that this man had for that cause / a necessary occasion and a profytable , to put that tale in his bate makynge boke .

But in the mene whyle , I laye agaynste hym for that point , and agaynst all his fyue wurshypfull wytnesses to , the dede & the reporte of the gretest and the moste honorable temporall lordes of the kynges most honorable counsayle , and other ryght wurshypfull temporall men of the same with them , whiche by the gracyouse commaundement of the kinges hyghnesse , haue examyned dyuerse suche complayntes , at the suit of the partyes them selfe and theyr frendes , & haue theruppon founden the same complayntꝭ false , & that th ordynaryes haue done them but ryght , and that wyth great fauour to .

And therfore as for thys poynte , the treuthe beynge so substancyally proued vppon this syde , by all hys fyue forenamed wytnesses , on the tother syde sette I not fyue strawes . And therfore good reders as for this poynt , his puttynge of that pyece in hys boke of diuisyon , had neyther necessyte nor profyte / excepte it were eyther necessary or profytable to sow a euyll sede agaynste good folke , of vntrew reprouable slaunder in hys owne wrytynge , vnder the colour of some other mennes vnproued wordis .

Than resteth there as farre as I can se but one cause byhynde , that shold excuse hym . And that is that it was a thynge profytable for the people , to know that though a man of a lyghtnesse or of a passyon growynge of ignoraunce or of frayltye , speke and ●alke heresyes at lybertye : yet but yf he defende it opinatyuely , he shold not be taken for an heretyke therby . Deryly good readers yf thys tale were trewe : yet wolde I wene as I sayde , this tale vnto the people as good vnwryten as wryten , & a great dele better to .

As for thys good man or any man ellys , I can not let theym to wryte what they lyste , and saye they thynke it good be it neuer so badde in dede . But I durste in my conscyence no more vse thys fashyon of wrytynge concernynge heresye , than I wolde vse it in wrytynge any boke , wherof I wolde speke of eyther treason or any other felony / excepte some other necessary occasyon sholde happely dryue me therto , as no good occasyon in hys booke of dyuysyon droue this good man therto .

If I were agayne to reade in Lyncolns Ine & there were in hande wyth a statute that touched treason and all other felonyes : I wolde not let to loke , seke out and reherse whyther any heyghnouse wordes spoken agaynst the prynce , were for the onely spekynge to be taken for treason or not .

Nor I wolde not let in lyke wyse to declare , if I founde out any casy● in whyche a man though he toke an other mannes horse agaynst the law , sholde yet not be iudged for a felon therby . And this wolde I not onely be bolde there to tell them , but wolde also be bolde in such french as is peculiare to the lawys of this realme , to leue it wyth them in wrytynge to . But yet wold I reken my selfe sor● ouer sene , yf all suche thynges as I wolde in that scole speke in a redyng , I wolde in englysh into euery mannys hand put out abrode in prent . For there is no such necessyte therin as is in the tother . For in the places of court these companies must nedes be taught it / oute of whyche companyes they must after be taken that shal be made iudges to iudge it . But as for the comon people to be tolde that tale , shall as farre as I se do many folke lytell good , but rather very great harme . For by perceyuyng that in some thinges were no thynge the perell that they ferede , some may waxe therin more neglygent / and by lesse ferynge the lesse dayngeour , may soone steppe into the more . And therfore haue I wyste ere thys , the iudges of a great wysedome in great open audyence , where they haue hadde occasyon to speke of hyghe mysseprisyon or of treason , forbere yet the sayenge of some suche thynges , as they wolde not haue letted to speke among them selfe .

If any man wold happely thynke that it were well done that euery man were taught all / and wollde aledge therfore that if he know surely what thynge wolde make hys behauour hygh treason or heresye , than though he wolde aduenture all that euer were vnder that , yet wold he be peraduenture the more ware to kepe hym selfe well from that / as many a man though he byleue that he shall abyde greate payne in purgatory for hys venyall synnes , dothe for all that no greate dylygence in forberynge of them , and yet for the feare of perpetuall payne in hell , taketh very greate hede to kepe hym selfe frome those synnes , that he surely knoweth for mortall .

As for suche venyall synnes as folke of fraylty so comenly do fall in , that no man is almoste any tyme wythout theym , though the profyte wolde be more yf men dyd wene they were mortall , so that the drede therof coulde make menne vtterly forbere theym : yet syth it wyll not be , that men wyll vtterly forbere them / the knowlege of the trouth is necessary for them / leste euery tyme that they do suche a veniall synne in dede , wenyng that it were mortall , the doyng of the dede wyth the conscyence of a mortall synne , myghte make it mortall in dede .

But of any such kynde of veniall synnes as be not so mych in custume , and may be more easyly forborne : I neuer founde any wyse man to my remembraunce , that wold eyther wryte or teche the comune peple so exactly , as to say though you do thus farre , yet is it no dedely synne / but wyll in suche thynges syth the veniall synne it self is a drawyng toward the dedely , rather leue the people in dowt and in drede of dedely synne , and thereby cause them to kepe them selfe farre of from it / than by tellynge theym it is but a venyall synne , make them the lesse aferde to do it / and so come so myche the ner●r to mortall synne , and assaye how nere he canne come to it , and not do it , tyll he come at laste so nere the brynke , that hys fote slyppeth and downe he falleth in to it . For as the s●rypture saith , Quiamat periculum , peribit in illo . He that loueth perell shall perysshe in it .

Nowe as for heyghnouse wordes spekynge agaynste the prynce , or talkynge of heresye agaynste the knowen catholyque fayth : these are no thynges lyke these commen veniall synnes / but be thynges bothe twayne , whyche they that do theym , maye myche more easely forbere them . And therfore were it more profyte vnto the people , to thynke rather the more perell therin thanne the lesse .

The iudgis parte is to se that the punysshement passe not the grauyte of the offence . And therfore shall the comon people take none harme , though them selfe concernynge treason or heresye , fall not by suche bokes to the myncyng of suche maters , and dyspute howe farre they maye go forwarde in theym , wythout the extreme daynger and perell of them / but shall the better kepe them selfe from the greater , yf for fere of greater , they kepe them selfe well from the lesse .

But surely suche tales tolde vn the people , and geuyn euery man and woman at auenture in prented englysshe bookes abrode , as may geue them suche boldenesse in talkynge , as thys man here in thys .xiiii. chapyter dothe , and to tell theym that there is not therin so mych perell , as many man wolde wene : maye be myche harme bothe vnto them selfe and vnto other to . To them selfe , for with a lytell lesse feare than they had before , they maye soone fall ferther than they dyd before , or euer wolde haue done . And than sholde he in whome it so sholde happen , fynde that it were ( as holy saynt Hierome sayth ) better to leue some thynges vnknowen , than with perell to lerne theym .

To other men also maye a man do thereby myche harme . For some man with bolde talkynge heresyes , wherby he maketh other men fyrste to take them for lyght , and lytell and lytell after to byleue them to ( whyle they here him so boldely speke them , & here hym nothynge reproue them ) may do mych more harme by making many other fal from the fayth , though he were not fallen from it hym selfe , than he shold do if he hylde his tonge , though secretely in his harte he were a starke heretyke in dede .

And therfore surely good reader , what so euer the man ment in hys owne secrete mynde , the fashyon of his doctrine is yet in my mynde playnely a thynge to the people myche more perylouse than profytable / and in his booke of dyuysyon very euyll putte in , and here euyll repeted agayne .

Now where as he referreth the remanaunt of the mater concernyng heresye , vnto theym that can better skyl / of whom he desyieth me to aske what were to be done , wyth suche as speke heresyes and are none heretykes in theyr harte : surely yf euer any suche case sholde happen , as I shold nede to make serche for that poynte , I wolde wyth good wyll so do . But I loke for no suche necessyte . For it is inough for me , yf I sholde happe to here any talke heresyes , than to declare it vnto theyr ordynaryes , to whome the ferther charge apperteyneth , to make therupon ferther serch suche as he maye / and theruppon as he maye ferther fynde therof , so ferther do therin . And as for thys man hym selfe , as he canneth therin for any thynge that I se very lytell skyll , so wolde I that he hadde lesse medeled therwith , than to tell and teache the peple fyrst by hys booke of dyuysyon , and afterwarde by thys booke agayne , that they maye speke and talke heresyes well inough , wythout the daynger or perell to be for suche spekynge lawfully taken for heretyques . Wyth whiche tale though it were trewe , he doth them yet lytell good . For the vsyng of such spekyng of heresyes , yf it fully proue not a man an heretyque , yet may it make hym ye wote well of heresye in hys harte very ryghte sore suspecte . For as oure sauyour saythe hym selfe , Ex habundantia cordis os loquitur . The mouth speketh suche thynges as in the harte be plentuouse and haboundeth . And therfore I saye , that though he neyther defende it obstynately , nor can be precysely proued an heretique in his secrete harte : yet maye his open wordes be suche ( though they were spoken of I can not tel you what maner passyon ) that for the sore suspycyon that his own wordes hath brought hym selfe into , he maye well and wyth good reason be compelled to abiure . And therin were there I wysse no great honesty nor no very great profyte neyther . And yet is it al the profyte that I se can come of thys good mannes doctryne .

And this is the thynge so that this good man bosteth in this chapiter , the seconde syde of his .xliiii , lef , that I do not deny / as though he had goten therby a great ouer hande on me in the mater . But yet wold I good reders saue for the length , let hym perceyue thys ouersyghte and ignoraunce , in another maner touchynge the thynge that he so bosteth that I denye hym not / and wolde make hym loke a lyttell better euyn vppon Summa Rosella , whom he so mych allegeth here hym selfe .

And where as in the same lefe and syde , he maketh a certayne certyfycate ( as though I were a bysshoppe , and hadde sente hym a commyssyon to enquyre ) that he knoweth not one heretyke in all this realm in worde nor dede : mary I wolde meruayle myche yf he dyd . For yt muste nedes be very long ere he can knowe any , while the man is so lytle suspycyouse in maters of heresye , that though he sholde here theym talke heresye by hym , yet bycause though he heare what theyr mouthes speke , he can not yet perdyelo ●oke in vnto theyre hartes there , and se what they thynke , nor knoweth not also , whyther yf they were asked where they were well a ferde , they wolde holde yt opynatyuely / or elle● ( rather than be burned or beare a fagotte ) say that they sayde yt al but of a passyon of ignoraunce or frayltye : he can not therfore lyghtely knowe any one heretyque ( as he sayeth he doth not ) neyther in worde nor dede in all thys whole realme .

And then for hearynge by report , therin goth he farther and sayeth .

For howe be yt that I haue herde somtyme reported , that there be many heretykes / yet I neuer hard so farre profe therin , that I myght with conscyence ●uge or report / that this man or that man is an heretyque . And to euery lyght worde a man maye not gyue full credence in that behalfe / ne reporte yt lyghtly / that any man is an heretyque by suche lyght tales . And surely thys poynte is myche to be noted of all men / but moste spycyally of them that dayly myny●tre the sacramentes of the chyrche , lefte happely thorough suche reportes they mynystre theym somtyme in dedely synne , and yet wolde not thynke so theym selfe .

It wolde haue done very well , that thys good man hadde geuen as lyghte a credence , to suche reportes in mysse handelynge of heretyques as some haue made hym of the spyrytualtye ( yf hym selfe therin saye trewe ) as he semeth to haue geuen to theym that haue reported vnto hym that there are many heretiques . For than , syth after hys owne preachynge here , a man oughte to be so well ware howe he lyghtely reporte agayne , any euyll lyghte reportes that he hathe herde to the slaunder of any one man : hym selfe wold not of lykelyhed so lyghtely haue made such euyll report in that poynt , to the slaunder and obloquye of the prelates of the spyrytualtye , therby to brynge theym in grudge of the whole temporalty , vppon such lyght reportes made vnto hym , by some lyghte symple persones / where as by the kynges honorable counsayle the trouthe hathe ben so playnely proued to be contrarie .

But yet where as he confesseth that he hathe herde yt sometyme reported , that there be many heretyques : I wolde fayne wyt of hym , whether that suche reporte haue ben made vnto hym by any of the temporaltye . If he saye naye , but that all that so tolde hym were spyrytuall men : than may they byleue hym that thynke hys answere lykely . For I wolde wene in my mynde , that betwene hym and spyrytnall persones , were not so myche famylyare companye , as to come to tell hym that tale . For he semeth not very metely for spyrytuall men in that mater to make theyr mone vnto . And than yf he harde yt eyther of temporall men besyde , or of temporall men onely and no spyrytuall men at all : than dyd he not very well when he wrote in hys dyuysyon , that spyrytual men make that noyse for a polycye . And yet also wolde I farther wy●● whether he haue herde any speke heresyes in any place where hym selfe was present in companye . If he answere me naye : than wyll I preace no farther vppon hym , but let euery man as I saide before byleue yt that thynketh yt lykely . But on the tother syde , yf he answere me ye : than wolde I fayne farther wyt , whyther euer hym selfe wente so farre wyth theym , as to proue whether he sholde by hys owne rule in thys chapyter , haue cause to shewe theyr ordynarye of theym , that he myghte sende for theym / or ellys that herynge folke so speke heresyes by hym , he toke all to the beste alwaye of his owne specyall goodnesse / and leste he myghte wyth questyonynge happe to fynde yt worse , folowed euer in that mater , the good counsayle that saynt Poule gaue in a nother mater , nolite interrogare , propter conscientiam , aske no questyon , leste you brynge a scruple into your conscyence . If he vsed any dylygence in questyonynge : than were yt well lykely that he founde in all thys longe whyle , some where at the leste wyse some one .

But now yf he herde them speke heresye , & founde no faute therwyth , nor no questyon asked : then ys yt as I sayde lytle meruayle , though he neuer no where in al England found one . And that is euen one of the very thynges , whyle many folke nowe fall to the same fashyon , to heare heresyes talked and lette the talkers alone , whyche yet wyll ( yf they be brought into the court byfore the iudge ) tell than the trouth , and wyl not be so false as to be forsworen : thys is I say one of the very special thynges , for whyche in cryme of heresye the suyte ex officio ( whyche in the next chapyter folowyng he laboreth ●ore to destroye ) maye what so euer thys man saye , in no wyse be forborne , but yf we wolde haue the ●iretes swarme full of heretyques , why the very lykely were to folowe , though he saye naye .xl. tymes .

And that haue I agaynste hys boke of dyuysyon well declared in myne Apologye . And he hath agayn here in thys boke defended , in that poynte his boke of dyuysyon , as your self shal anon se god wote wyth myche worke full febly .

The secund part .
The .xv. chapyter .

HIs .xv. chapiter concernynge the suit ex officio , begynneth in the xlviii . leaf of his boke , & holdeth on into the .liiii.

And for as mych good christen readers at it may well appere , that this poynt is the specyall thynge that he fayne wolde brynge about , that is to wyt to sowe an opinyon in mennes heddes , that it were good to chaunge and put awaye that suit , toward whiche purpose all his boke of diuysyon bendeth / laborynge fyrst with his so many some sayes , to brynge the spyrytuall iudges in suspycyon and obloquy , and make the people wene that they meruelousely dyd with mych wronge & cruelty mysse handle men for heresye : therfore I shall in thys poynt here confute hys argumentes so playne & in such wyse , that who so lyste indyfferently to rede bothe the partes , shall fynde here causes good and suffycyent why , by his vnreasonable reasons neuer after to set a flye

And fyrst bycause ye shall well se that I wyll not wrestle in the darke , but brynge the mater into lyght open and playne at your eyen / I wyll in this mater leue you not out one word of this his .xv. chapyter , but brynge forth his wordis with myne . And than whyle you rede the tone fyrste , & the tother euyn after hande : there shall neyther he nor I / by any sly sleyght deceyue you .

But two thynges for thys mater wyll I requyre you fyrste / one that you reiecte one wyly sleyght of hys , with which he goth about euyn from the begynnynge to corrupte our iudgement that are temporall men , and in the redyng to blynd vs with affeccion

For in all this mater he maketh as there were two partes . The tone he maketh the spyrytualtye . And thys cause he so maketh theyrs , as though the commodyte of that suit to be kepte , were a thynge that perteyned onely vnto them . The tother partye he maketh vs of the temporalty , whom he wold haue put the same suit away . For though that in the perleament be spyrytuall men also : yet all were they al vpon one syde sure , he seeth wel they were to fewe

But it is necessary that we consyder in this poynt , that though the iudges be spyrytuall , yet yf that suit be necessary for preseruacyon of the catholyke fayth , than is the profyte not the spirytuall mennes onely , but that profyte and aduauntage is our owne to . And yf by the chaunge of that suit ex officio , the decay of the catholyke fayth shall folow in this realme : than is not the losse and damage vnto the spyrytualtye alone , but the harme is importable vnto the whole realme .

Therfore haue this poynt in this mater euer before your eyen , that the chaunge of that law yf that lawe be good , but yf he chaunge it in to a better , or at the leste as good , is a comen harme to the whole realme . And that harme happeneth in the gretest thyng that we coulde possyble take harme in , yf we be ( as I wote well we be & euer entende to be ) faythfull trew chrysten people .

Loke therfore good readers both to his reasons and myne , and yf you fynde by his reasons that the puttyng awaye of that law , be better for the kepyng of the catholyke fayth in this land , ye or better other wyse for this land without the minisshement of the fayth in the same , than am I well content that ye compte thys good man bothe for very wyse and for very faithfull to .

But now yf you fynde by myne answere on the tother side , that al his reasons in this poynt are not worth one rysshe towarde the profe of any necessary cause of chaunge / but hys reason and his argumentis alway such therin , that eyther they be byelded vppon a fa●se ground / or ellys yf he make any that happen to be true , yf ye fynde it yet but such as by the selfe same reason yf men wolde vnwysely folowe it , there myghte no lawe neyther longe laste , nor yet no law be made : yf you fynd I say his reasons agaynst this law but suche , ye wyll than I dowt not thynke it but good reason , for all his riall reasonyng to let the law stand .

But than yf ye fynde ●erther yet , as I wote well ye shall , that the chaunge that he wolde make , vnder a nedeles pretence of preseruyng innocentes out of dayngeour and parell , and can not proue that thys hundred yere any one was wronged with it , sholde cause heretykes to be bolde , take corage , & encreace , and for lacke of this law the catholyke fayth to dekaye : than wyll you not I wote wel let to tell thys man , that he lacketh in this mater , how gay so euer he make it , either wyt , or ( which wurse were ) loue to the chrysten fayth .

The tother thynge that I requyre , you shall your selfe se reasonable . For it serueth to the clere perceiuyng of vs bothe , how both he and I bere our selfe in this mater . And I shall not requyre therin parcyally for my parte , but a requeste indyfferent and egall for vs bothe , syth ye shall the clerer therby perceyue where about we bothe goo , and where any of vs bothe swarue a syde fro the mater , and to hyde the trouth out of syghte , slynke into lurkys lane .

My request is no more , but that it maye lyke you to take the laboure and payne for perceyuynge of the trowth , from the begynnynge to peruse the whole mater , as farre as perteyneth to the chaunge of this lawe .

Reade fyrste hys owne wordes in his owne boke of dyuysyon . And after reade myne answere in myne apologye , whyche you shall fynde in the fourtyth chapyter , the .218 . leaf , and his wordis to therwyth . And whanne those two thynges be bothe fresshe in your mynde , reade thanne this his fyftenthe chapyter of thys booke , wyth myne answeres euery where added therunto / and than haue I whan this is done lytell dowte of your iudgement , ye shall se the mater proue agaynste thys good man playne .

In hys .xv. chapyter good readers he wolde make men wene , that he suffycyentely proueth thre thynges . The tone is that it were none hurte to chaunge now this olde lawe . The secunde thynge is that it were great hurte to kepe it . The thyrde , that suche samples of the lawes of thys realme as I resembled vnto the suit ex officio , I resemble against reason , they be so farre vnlyke .

Into these thre poyntes therfore wyll I deuyde thys chapyter that the reader may the better se in what parte he is .

I shall reherse you fyrst here his whole wordes togyther , that he bryngeth for the fyrste poynte . Lo good readers these they be .

THen to the conuentynge of men before spyrytuall iudges ex officio , and wherupon mayster More sayth in his apology , fo , 219. that yf it were lefte , the stretes were lykely to swarme full of heretikes : Heryly I m●ruayle right moche at his sayeng therin : and that for this cause : It is certayne , that no man maye after the lawe be detected of heresye , but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before why he oughte so to be . For yf it be secrete in hys owne breste , none can be hys iudge but god onely , that is the sercher of man● herte . And yf any wyl ●d●owe , that he knoweth the ca●se , and wyl denounce hym as an heretyke therfore : than it is reason , that he be taken as his accuser . And yf he wyll not aduow to be his accuser , yf y● to thynke that he doth yt of some malyce or crafte rather then for the trouth of the mater . And yf he saye he da●e not for fere of hi● lyfe auow yt , I haue shewed a meane in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse how the wytnesse maye be saued from daunger , as by shewynge the mater to the kynge and hys counsayle , and that then yt is not to suppose nor so to thynke , but that they wyll pronyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe . And this remedye mayster More denyeth not to be conuenyent for this realme . And yet he wyll not assent , that a lawe be made that yt shall be so . And then yf the wytnesse wil not auow it , but an other wyl geue credence to hym and auow yt : then yt semeth reasonable , that they that wyll gyue credence therto , a wyl reporte yt / be taken as accusers : takynge those wytnesse for theyr warraunte , yf yt be denyed .

In these wordes lo good readers you se , howe he proueth hys fyrste poynt , that of the chaunge of this law by puttynge awaye this suyt ex officio , wherin wythoute any specyall accuser , offerynge hym selfe as party , the suspecte may be called in before the iudge ex officio , that is to wyt by reason of his office : there could none harme growe at all .

And howe dothe he nowe proue vs this poynt ? He proueth yt as you se fyrst by certain reason put & presupposed for a grounde / & then after that by a certayne order that hym ●elfe shortly diuyseth and setted vp vppon the same .

Hy● ground and his foundacion is this , yt is certayn he sayth that no man may after the law be detected of heresye / but that there is some man that knoweth the cause before / why he ought so to be .

Very trouth yt is that no man can be detected , except a man detect hym self , but yf some other se some thyng in hym wherfore he sholde seme nought , some one thinge or other that they whych perceyue it suspect hym therfore them selfe . And therfore as for this ground this good man and I wyll not greatly stryue Then foloweth his order that he dyuyseth & byesdeth vp theruppon thus .

And yf any wyll aduow that he knoweth the cause , and wyll denounce hym an heretyke therfore : then is yt reason that he be taken as his accuser .

This is a ryght good reason / and the spirituall lawe wyll not refuse so to take hym & accept hym for an accuser yf he will / and then wyll they not in that case vse the suit ex officio . For in that case it nedeth not . But nowe what yf he that knoweth it , & secretly detecteth it , peraduenture four or fyue and sometyme mo to , & yet not one of them al , wil openly be called an accuser , but wil be content to be taken and knowen for a wytnesse , called in by the court & sworen , and to tell the trouth as of an necessyte , & not as accusers of theyr neyghbour of theyr own offre wyllyngly : what shall the ordynary do then ? Agaynst this parel this good man geueth vs this remedy .

If they wyll not be hys accusers , yt is to thynke that they do yt of some malyce or crafte , rather then for the trouth of the mater .

I wene good readers that there is no man but when he hereth this answere , he wold wene there were yet for the farther remedye some other more mater behynd . For what madde man wolde thynke that this were a suffycient remedy , so fully prouyded For thys mater , that yf there were any heretyques they could not fayle so fully to be detected by thys waye of accusacyon , that there sholde nede no suyte ex officio , bycause they that knowe yt maye eyther holde theyr peace yf they lyste , or ellys yf they wyll algates detecte any man , maye be taken and accepted for accusers / and yf they wyll not openly be taken so , then be taken for malycyouse and craftye , and therfore byleue theym not , but bydde theym lyke false harlottes hense and go gete theym home .

But howe shall we do yet for one thynge ? For thoughe that theyre refusynge to bycome open accusers , were a coniecture to lede vs somewhat to byleue them false or malycyouse : yet were yt not so great a coniecture on that syde , nor so sure , but that we might be therin decey●ed and they bothe charytable and trew , and the man that they detected a very perylouse heretyque in ve●y dede . And then for oughte that this man deuyseth yet , we sholde nede the suyte ex officio to buste oute this mater better / or ellys that man that they detected shall ( yf he be suche as they sayde he was ) teache heresyes styll , and do myche harme a great whyle .

Also good readers thys good man hathe no suche cause so sore to mysse truste suche a denouncer , onely bycause that he refuseth to be taken of his owne offre for a partye and an open accuser , consyderynge that he refuseth not to be broughte in by processe , and depose in the parties owne presence as a wytnesse , and wyll be content that his deposycyons hym selfe standyng by be publyshed , & redde openly byfore the world . And therfore any wyse man wold wene , that this good man to proue that we shold not nede the suyte ex officio , yf he wolde make hys suyte by waye of accusacyon , suffycyent to serue in the stede , he had nede to haue diuised some ●arther thing then this . But this good hoste of ours , prayeth you for this feste to be m●ry with such as you haue , for here is al your fare / sauyng that to make vs lyke this meate the better , & fyl our belyes somwhat the better ther wyth , he geueth vs therto one lytle messe of sauce to it , in shewynge vs a cause , wherfore it is good reason , that we shold geue theym no credence that detecte a man of heresy , and yet wil refuse to become his open accusers . And the cause that he geueth vs is this .

F●r vf he say ( sayth this good man ) that he dare not for ●ere of his lyfe auow yt , I haue shewed a meane in the seuenth chapyter of the sayd treatyse / how the wytnesse may be saued from daunger , as by shewyng the mater to the kynge and his counsayle / and that the● it is not to suppose nor to thynke , but that they wyll prouyde suffycyently for the indempnyte of the wytnesses in that behalfe .

Nowe good readers herde any man euer any reason made for suffycyent , by any man that any reason had in his hedde / and handeled so insuffycyently . Be this wyse reason he maketh as though no man detectynge any man of heresye , excepte he surmysed the mater of falshed & malyce , wolde refuse to be hys open accuser for any thynge saue for onely fere / nor for no lesse fere neyther then onely the fere of deth . And then for that fere , he hath as he sayth diuysed suffycyent remedye .

Now that none other thynge can set a man to make hym selfe a partye and an open ac●user , but onely fere● I wene there wyll no man graunte hym / and that no lesse fere then onely fere of deth , and adde fere of all bodyly harme thereto , that wyll I wene euery wyse man lesse graunt● hym .

But nowe let vs consyder whether the fere that hym selfe graunteth to be suffycyent , to let a detectour from takynge vppon hym to be an accuser , be so suffycyently prouyded for by thys good man , that yt muste nedes be , that by hys prouysyon that fere shall be quyte gone . For yf that yt maye be , that all hys prouysyon not wythstandynge , the mannys fere maye styll remayne in his harte / then may yt also be perdy , that be hys deteccyon neuer so trew , yet he maye for that fere , refuse to make hym selfe a partye and become an open accuser .

Consyder nowe therfore what is the remedye that he hath dyuysed in his seuenth chapyter . He reherseth yt here agayne , that vppon complaynt made to the kynge and his counsayle it is not to suppose nor thinke , but that they wold prouyde sufficiently for thindemnyte of the wytnesse in that behalfe .

I am content to graunte hym for the whyle , that they wyll suffycyently prouyde for th indempnyte of the wytnessys . But fyrst all this prouysyon is in our case here very nedeles . And his prouysyon in the seuynth chapyter of his dyuysyon , is brought in for another maner of mater / that ys to witte agaynst a prouisyon made in the spyrytull lawe , by whyche yt is there deuysed , that in some case for drede of perell that may fall to the wytnesses , the ordynary shall not suffre the ꝑtie that is detected , to knowe who hath wytnessed agaynste hym . And nowe wolde this good man bygyle his readers in this chapyter , & make theym wene that that specyall prouysyon in that one specyall case , whych prouysyon I wene was yet in Englande neuer put in vre , were a comen order in euery mannys case . But consyder good reader that our case is now , that the man refuseth not to be a wytnesse / but is contente both to be sworen when he is as a witnesse called in , and to auowe then hys deposycyon trewe , byfore the iudge in the partyes awne presence / and if he maye so be vsed as a wytnesse , wyll neyther be afrayed nor a shamed , nor desyre to putte the kynges counsayle to any busynesse aboute the prouysyon of his indempnyte at all . And therfore in our case thys good mannys prouysyon deuysed for wytnesses , shall not nede for our wytnesses , yf he lette the suyt ex officio procede , and receyue them as onely witnesses .

But on the tother syde , yf this good man putte a way that suyt , and wyll receyue no man fyrste for a denouncer secretely , and after that for a wytnesse to , that wyl refuse at the begynnynge to make hym selfe a partye and bycome an open accuser / but though they were suche twenty wyll take theym al for false shrewes and putte theym to sylence , excepte some one of theym wyll take vppon hym the name and persone of an accuser : I saye that his prouysyon dothe not suffyse , not euyn in hys owne case of fere , to make euery trew man content to accuse an heretyque / but that we muste eyther lette that heretyque alone and lette hym go make mo , or ellys muste we vse the suyte ex officio styll .

That is not so sayeth this good man . For yf he bycome an accuser I haue diuysed a remedye for hys indempnyte . That is well & properly sayde . But we speke not of hys losse but of hys fere . Why what shold he nede to fere whan he can take no losse ? hath this good man neuer herd in his lyfe that some man hathe ben wurse aferde than hurt ? a man may fere perdy though he fere causelesse . And yf he so do styl them wil he not bycome th accuser , & angre hym whome he fereth , though the man be bounden , and ryghte good suertyes with hym , that he shall do his accuser no bodyly harme at all .

His fere is also for all the prouysyon that can be made by suffycyent suertye , not all causelesse yet . For he may well and with good reason fere , that he that is bounden may by some secrete shrewes of hys acquayntauns murdre hym / and that in such wise as when he doth it , he may wene & haue hope that it shal neuer be knowen for his dede , nor he therby lese forfaiture of his bounde .

There can no man ( ye wote wel ) also kyll a nother , but with the parel of his owne lyfe . And yet is there dayly many a man , that standeth for al that in drede , that a nother man wil for euyll will and malyce des●roye hym . And the comen lawes of thys realme so farre forth alowe and approue his drede , for al that his enimy is vpon losse of his own lyfe bounden to the contrarye , that vpon his owne othe , they compell the party to be bounden with other suertyes for hym in certayne sommes of money , that he shal not . And yet the man that fered byfore , may peraduenture be fullferd styll , that his enymye wyll as well aduenture the forfayture of his frendes money , as he before fered that he wolde aduenture his owne lyfe . But yet bycause yt maye be that his resspecte vnto frendshyppe , wyl temper his respecte of malyce , and make him loth , for hurtynge of one whome he hateth , to hurte twayne whome he loueth : the man is content syth he can go no farther , to take that maye be goten , and so to sew for such suertye , to lyue therby , though not in ful suerty , nor clene oute of fere , yet in suerty somwhat the more , and in fere somewhat the lesse .

But now this man that doth detecte this heretyke , agaynst whom he fereth to make hym self an open aduersary & accuser , is not in the case byfore he become his accuser , but maye sytte styll you se well and hold his peace , and nedeth not to make that heretyque his aduersarye by his wylfull accusacyon / whyche yf he sholde ones do , he wyll neuer after happely whyle he lyueth , reken hym selfe so sure from bodyly harme that he may after hap to haue by him and by his meanes , as he wyl reken to be in yf he accuse him not / nor by such open accusacyon geue hym an open occasion of displeasure / no not for all the prouysyon that all the world can imagine for his suertie / except onely suche suertye as a pore man deuysed ones for him self , when he came to a kyng & complayned howesore he fered that suche a seruaunt of his wold kyll hym . And the king bode hym fere not felow , for I promyse the if he kyllthe he shal be hanged within a lytle whyle after . Naye my lyege lord ꝙ the pore soule I beseche your grace let hym be hanged for it a great whyle afore . For I shall neuer lyue in the lesse fere tyll I se hym hanged fyrste . Now will this good man happely say , that this maner of reasonynge shold proue not onely that a man for fere wold refuse to be an accuser , but also to be a witnesse / & then were it agaynst my selfe to .

That is not so in euery case . For comenly no man is in such wise angry with them that are in a mater wytnesses agaynst hym , & may seme to witnesse agaynst theyr willys , for the necessyte of theyre othes wherto they may be or may seme to be compelled , as with hym whom he seeth willyngly no man calling him , come forth of his own offre to accuse him . And therfore the cases be very far vnlyke . But yet in some cases when the partye that is detected is knowen for myghtye , and for so maliciouse therwith , that he wyll of lykelyhed hate & myschyefe any man by whome he taketh any harme , though the tother man do yt neuer so myche agaynst his wyll : in suche cases the fere maye be such in dede , that it maye peraduenture cause some that ellys wolde tell the trewth yf he sholde neuer knowe them , for drede of his dyspleasure to be forsworen , rather then abyde th aduenture , what so euer prouysyon any man sholde deuyse for theyr suertye .

And for suche case yf it happened was the law made , which in his seuenth chapyter this man so sore complayneth of , that the party detected shold in suche case be kepte fro the knoweledge of the wytnesses / & as ( with the prouisyons that are in that law made farther ) very good reason is that he sholde / and therfore is euen here that poynt of his seuenth chapyter of hys deuisyon , and all that euer he can farther deuyse for the farther defence therof , full answered here by the way .

But nowe sayeth this good man therto , that I denye not in myne apologye , that remedye of his dyuyse to be conuenyent for this realme / & yet I wyl not he sayth assent that a law be made that yt shal be so .

In this tale this good honest man sayth vntrew . The wordes in myne apologye wheruppon he taketh hold to say , that I denye not his deuyse to be conuenyent for thys realme be these .

His deuyse though peraduenture yt wolde serue in some one lande , wolde yet not serue in some other . And they that made that lawe of the chyrche , made yt as it myght serue most generally thorow chrystendome / where as this deuyse though it myght serue in Englande , myght not haue serued in many places of Almayne that are peruerted synnys / not euen whyle that mater was in a mamerynge byfore the chaunge was made . But surely that same law and other of old made agaynste heresyes , yf they had ben in Almayne dewely folowed in the begynnynge , the mater had not there gone oute at length to suche an vngracyouse endynge .

These be lo the wordes of myne apology the .xlii. chapyter folio . 232 , wherof this man taketh holde to say , that I denye not in myne apology , that his deuice is conuenient for this realme . For in these wordes in dede I do not denye it / but than you se well I do not graunte it neyther .

But afterwarde in the self same chapyter , the very nexte lefe after agaynste the sufficiency of his deuice write I these wordis folowing .

And on the tother syde , the remedy that he deuyseth for the suertye of the wytnesses , sholde not peraduenture make the men so bolde , as in a cause of heresie to medle in the mater against some maner of man●but that they rather wold for theyr owne surety , kepe theyr own tongys styll , than with all the suretie that could be founden them bysyde , haue theyr persons dysclosed vnto the partye .

Lo good reders the thynge that he sayth I deny not , bycause that in the fyrst wordes I neyther sayed ye nor nay ( for I sayd not that it myght serue in england / but that though it myghte serue in Englande , yet myght it not serue in Almayne / which wordes I myght haue sayd , though I had in the nexte lyne before , expressely sayd that it myght not serue in England ) the thyng do I ( as you se ) forthwith in the nexte lefe well & playnely denye . And yet you se that he sayth here agayne in thys boke , that I denye it not . This good man semeth not very shame fast lo , but yf his logyke lede hym to thynke that this were a good argument . In these wordis he denyeth it not : ergo he denyeth it not . which argument is euen as good as this . He denyeth it not in one place , ergo he denyeth it not in no place .

Now where he sayth that though I denye not his deuyce to be conuenyent , yet I wyll not assent that a law be made that it shall be so : surely as mych of his deuice as I thynke conuenyent for the realme , so myche therof wyll I not be agaynste that a lawe be made that it shal be so . For where this good man thynketh it conuenyent for this realme , that he which is detected or accused of heresye , sholde be bounden & fynde suretyes , that he shall not hurt neyther accuser nor wytnesse : I wyll not be agaynst it that a law be made that it shal be so But yet though that law were made ( syth for all that lawe there wold remayne a feare behynde in the mennes hartes , for whose sa●fe garde suche surtyes sholde be founden , and perell and dayngeour to , suffycyent to make them drawe backe from makynge them self in heresye open accusours , and in some case from berynge wytnesse also , but yf they thought theyr names sholde from the person agaynst whom they shold wytnesse , be surely kepte close and vnknowen ) I wolde not assent for my parte to put awaye the sayd law that he speketh of in his seuenth chapyter of his deuisyon , for chaunces that myght herafter happen . And mych lesse wolde I graunte to putte awaye the suyte agaynst heretikes ex officio , into his deuice of onely open accusers , for the harme that wold vndowtedly dayely growe , by the encreace of heretykes & hynderaunce of the catholyke fayth / no more than though I blame not the law , by whiche he that is aferde of kyllyng shall haue his aduersary bounden to the peace , I wolde yet when the tother is so bounden by recognisaunce , haue that lawe stande in stede of the tother , by whyche he shall yf he kyll that man , fall therby ferther into the daynger of hangynge .

And yet this his gaye gloryouse deuice , that he deuysed in his formar boke , and here now repeteth agayne : no man nedeth to geue him any great thank for . For who knew not that all way , that who so euer be aferde , may desyre & haue surety for the peace , yf he fere him self of his lyfe or bodyly harme , & may aske it of course vpon his othe as soone as he is aferd ( and soner perdye this man deuiseth it not ) of the kyngis ordinary iustices , without any other ferther suit , to trouble the kyngis grace or his counsayle withall .

But yet wyll all this surety f●ndyng as you se , neuer so take away the feare of harme from mennes hartes , but that they wyll rather forbere to be accusours , than by the becoming of an open accusour runne in the dedely malyce of that man , by whom for all his bond & all his suretyes founden , they fere still alway that they shal take hurt .

But here wyll happely this good man tell me nowe , that I am a man importune , & one whom no reason can satisfye / & byd me therfore go deuyse some ferther thyng myne owne selfe ●or●e●pe of the mater , and assay also what ferther thynge any other folke can f●nd therin . And if neyther myne own wyt nor no mannes els can fynd no ferther remedy , wherfore shold I than blame hym whan he deuiseth as full ● r●medy as any mannes reason can find . Forsoth I can with any wyt that I haue , nor I wene no more can no man els / fynd no ferther remedy than he fyndeth here hym selfe . But yet syth the ferthest that he can fynd is very far vnsufficient , with chaunge of the suit ex officio to kepe heresyes from great encreace , and preserue the catholyke fayth : I can therfore fynd at hand a mych nerer remedy than this that he fetcheth so farre that is to wyt to let his new deuicꝭ passe and let the old law stand styll●

And thus you se good readers that this pyece wherein he so bosteth the prouisyon that he hath deuysed so suffycyent to delyuer the accusers frofere , leueth theym so in drede & fere styll , that though there were no lette but the fere of bodely harme : yet of many trew men that wyl detecte and bere wytnesse , ye shold fynde but very few that wolde bycome accusers .

But now though there were founden prouysyon good and sure , to dryue out of th accusers harte all fere of bodyly hurt : yet are there many that dare secrely detecte , and by whome the ordynarye shall knowe who can tell more , and wyll also yf they be called and sworen , and wyll not vncalled and vnsworen , tell no tale at all / and they them selfe also wyl neyther accuse nor yet bere wytnesse neyther , nor so myche as haue it knowen that euer thei spake word therin . And that not for any fere of theyre lyfe , for whiche this good man fy●deth as he sayth a remedy / but for losse of theyr lyuynge , for whiche he fyndeth none , nor neuer ones thought theron . And yet is the lyuynge to some folke , as lyefe almost as the lyfe . And theyr lyuynge they feare vtterly to lose ( that they gete peraduenture by them whom yet of cheryte for theyr amendement they detecte ) yf they were ones perceyued any thing to medle in the mater .

And yet as I sayde before euery wyse man well woteth there are many other affeccyons bysyde all suche feare , that lette men to become accusers in heresye , and yet letteth them not to do otherwyse truely and charytably theyr dewtye , both in secrete detectyng of them , and also in open berynge wytnesse agaynst them , whan they be called forth and commaunded by the court to depose , that wyll neuer as I sayed of theyr owne offre make theym selfe a party , and openly become theyr accuser .

Now what if there were but two wy●nesse of the mater , suche as were well able playnely to proue the thyng , yf neyther of both maye be herd but yf the tone shold become th accusour : whan the tone were made party , than were the profe lost . But we shal not nede myche I warraunt you to care for this case . For of them both , you shal haue neyther nother that wyll .

How be it yet hath this good man at last founden a good way for that . For lo syr thus he sayth .

And than yf the wytnesse wyll not auow it , but an other wyll geue credence to hym and auo● it : than it semeth reasonable that they that wyll geue credence therto and wyll reporte it , be taken a● accusers / takynge those wytnesses for theyr warraunt yf they be denyed .

If he thynke it lykely that none of them wyll become accusours that were present and herde it them selfe : than is it yet lesse lykely that he wyll become the accusour , that hereth it but at a seconde hand .

And therfore me thynketh that this deuice is not mych wyser , than the deuice that a good felow deuised ones for his neyghbour , that had a greate hylloke in his close / whiche for planynge of the ground he counsayled hym to haue it away . Mary ꝙ his neyghbour I muste carye it than so farre , that it were lesse losse to me to geue away the close & all . Mary neyghbour ꝙ the tother , I shall soone fynde a way for that . For I shal deuise a pronision that it shal be had away & yet neuer caryed hense . For euen there as it lyeth lo , dygge me a great pytte , & cary it neuer ferther , but berye it euen in that . Where shall I than lay that hepe ꝙ his neyghbour that cometh out of the pytte ? At that the tother st●dyed a lytle . But whan he hadde well bythought hym : mary ꝙ he euen digge another greate pytte vnder that , and bery me that hepe there .

So this man wyll in any wyse lo , haue awaye this hyllocke , this suyte ex officio , that he sayeth dothe here myche hurte . howe shall we haue yt away say we without yet mych more hurte ? Good remedy sayth this good man shortely shall I deuyse . Putte accusers in the stede of that suyt , and they shall do myche better . who shall be th accusers say we ? Mary sayth he they that here them . They wyll not say we bycome accusers in no maner case . No wyl they sayeth he , then be they but false shrewes . what remedy then say we to supply the sayde suyt . A redy waye sayeth he , take some other that heareth the tother that herd the heretike speke .

He will myche lesse bycome accuser saye we , then they that herd yt theym selfe . what hath this good man farther to saye then , bydde vs take then a nother that wyll . And euer we folowe styll & say we shall neuer fynde hym / and that word he denyeth not , but alwaye byddeth vs go gete one . And now yf the second man were content , or the fyftenth after : yet hath this man marred all thys mater with one thynge . For you wote well that yf the wytnesse that sayth he was present and herd it his owne eares wyll refuse to bycome th accusar hym self : this good man wyll that the ordynary shall take hym for malycyouse or false . Now than yf we gete with longe labour some other man to accuse : yet hym that herde it and wold not be th accuser hym selfe , syth the bysshoppe must take hym alwaye for malycyouse or false in the mater , he maye neuer accept hym therin for a wytnesse . For yf we take hym for fraudulent & maliciouse to the partye / this mannes credence is tenne tymes lesse in all reason , than his is that afterwarde deposeth to his harme , where he was fyrst forsworen , whyle he wold fayne haue done hym good / and that man wolde not this good man byleue after in no wyse .

And thus bothe for the tone cause and the tother , for lacke of an accusour and credence of the wytnes , you se playnely good readers that by this mannes deuice , yf we dygge vp and bery this hylloke ex officio , we shall whan we haue all done say he what he lyste , make & leue that neuer wyll than be voyded , as great an hyllok● of heretykes in the stede .

And this you se good readers that this good man sheweth vs yet no le● but that for any thynge that he sayth here , yf the suit of officio were chaunged as he wolde haue it , and in stede therof truste all vnto accusours , of whyche for any thynge that he deuiseth we were lykely to fynde few , & as I feare me veryly rather none at all : it were well lykely to come to passe as I sayd , that the stretes sholde swarme full of heretykes , ere euer they were conuented and repressed by his way . Of which sayenge of myne as mych meruaile as he saith he hath : yet sheweth he nothynge ( as you se ) wherfore he shold meruaile of it / nor to the thynges that I preue it wyth / he no more answereth , than though he neuer herd them .

Whyche dealynge of his you may clerely perceyue , euyn by the very same lefe , wherin I wrote those wordes of which he meruayleth so mych and hath so lytell cause . For there lo my wordes be these .

For surely yf the conuentynge of heretykes ex officio were lefte & chaunged into another order , by whyche no man sholde be called , be he neuer so sore suspected , nor by neuer so many men detected , but yf some man make hym selfe party agaynste hym as hys accusour : the stretes were lykely to swarme full of heretykes , byfore that ryght few were accused , or peraduenture any one eyther .

These were lo my wordes in myne apology against which you haue herd what he sayth . Than bycause he shold not nede to meruayle at the mater , I shew by & by what maketh me so to say . For there it foloweth thus .

For what so euer the cause be , it is not vnknowen I am sure , that many wyll gyue to a iudge secrete informacyon , of such thinges as though they be trew , yet gladly he wyll not or per●●uenture dare not , be openly knowen that the mater came out by hym .

Consyder here good readers that as to bycome open accusars , I speke here of two lettes . One that men wyll not , another that some men dare not . And yet that they dare not / I put as the more rare & more seldome . Now cometh thys good answerer , and for the more seldome , that is to wyt where they dare not , he deuiseth a remedy , whych seldome yet or neuer , suffycyentely shall serue the mater . And the tother cause that I call moost commune as in very dede it is : that cause he neyther denyeth nor any one word speketh of it , but softely slynketh besyde it , as though he hadde neuer redde yt . what maner of answerynge good readers call you this ?

More ouer lest he myght deny me that I sayde trewe therin : I layed there for the profe the playne comen experyence , whiche this good man hym selfe I am very sure ( but yf he be a recluse and haue ben all his lyfe ) knoweth well to be true / and in dede he sayth not nay .

Then go I there farther yet , and I declare what profyte there cometh to the commen weale , to geue suche folke herynge / such folke I saye as this good man wolde haue reiected backe , and taken for false or malycyouse , bycause they come secretly and wyll not theym selfe openly bycome accusers . Therin lo these are my wordes .

●And yet shal he sometyme geue the namys of dyuerse other / whyche beynge called by the iudge , and examyned as wytnesses agaynst theyr wyllys , both knowe and wyll also depose the trouthe , and he that fyrste gaue enformacyon also / and yet wil neuer one of theym wyllyngly make hym selfe an open accuser of the party , nor dare peraduenture for his earys .

This thynge good readers euery man euery where fyndeth trewe that any order of iustyce in his hande . And in these wordes you se well I tolde hym there ones agayn , not onely that some dare not , but that though men dare they wyll not ( excepte the thynge do pryuately touche theym selfe ) for the causes of the commen weale become open accusers . And as I agayne there tolde yt hym : so he here agayne forgeth yt .

Then go I yet forthe a lytle farther , and these are there my wordes .

And this fynde we not onely in heresye , but in many temporall maters amonge our selfe / wherof I haue had experyence many a tyme and oft , both in the dysclosynge of felonyes , and somtyme of myche other oppressyon vsed by some one man or twayn in a shyre , wherby all theyr neyghbours sore smarted / and yet not one durste openly complayne .

Lo thus I there declared good reders by commen eyperyence , that if men shold do as this man here deuyseth , reiecte euery man for malycyouse & crafty that wil geue secrete informacion , but yf he be content to bycome an accuser openly : there sholde myche harme growe therof / not in heresyes onely , but besyde that in myche other myschief to . To al this gere you se good readers that this good man playeth as though he came in in a mummery , for any one word he sayth / whyche shold not so haue scaped hym ye may be very sure , but that he sawe full surely that he coulde neuer answere them . For though he wold haue denyed all that I speke of myne owne experyence , yet in the lyke thynges so many men of worshyp dayly do proue the thynge trew that I tell yt for , that he could nothyng wynne in his cause by al that denyenge . And yet dyd I not myne own selfe my besynesse in such wyse , but that I can yf nede requyre proue it playne inough . But of thys gere as I sayd he denyeth nothynge , nor answereth nothyng neyther thervnto . And sure maye you be that if he had coulde , he wold not haue fayled to haue done the tone .

And therfore good readers my wordes stand styll so sure , that thys good man hath not yet nor neuer shal whyle he lyueth , be able to voyde them with all the crafte he can , but that yf men wolde be so farre ouersene as in thys mater to folow hys deuice , to put awaye thys olde lawe the suit ex officio , and truste that all wolde be well holpen by meane of open accusers : it wolde at lengthe come to passe the thyng that I haue sayd , that the stretes were well lykely to swarm full of heretikes , ere euer that ryght few shold be therof accused , or peraduenture any one heretyke eyther .

And now good chrysten readers syth you se so clerely , that by suche chaungynge of that law , the catholyke fayth shold decaye : I care not now greately what he saye for his second parte , syth he hath so fowle an ouer throwe in the fyrste , vppon whiche fyrste parte all the mater hangeth . For though he coulde in his seconde parte make you now good profe , not onely that there myght , but also that there dyd & hath done , greate harme grow by that suyte , whiche he shall neuer proue you whyle he liueth / but at sundry tymes & that of late where it hath ben so surmysed , it hath alway be proued the contrary ; yet syth you se well that by this chaunge that he deuyseth , while we wold helpe these harmes that he speketh of , that is to wytte that no man sholde be conuented of heresye causelesse . we shold by the prouydyng for that harme , be the cause of farre more hurt and harme in the stede / that is to wyt , that when that suyte were so chaunged , the catholyque fayth sholde dekaye , and heretyques so sholde encrease , that by such insurreccions as they haue here byfore made , not in other countreys onely , but in this realme of England haue also attempted the same , put yt vppon the parell & assey to robbe spoyle and kyll also myche innocent people openly , and tourne folke from the fayth by force , and worke other maner of maystryes many mo , suche a● myne harte abhorret so myche as to reherse or name . Syth euery man may se I say , that suche harme were in parel to fal by this chaunge of his● there wyll I wene no wyse man folow his fonde deuyse in puttyng this law away , all though he proued wel in his seconde parte , that there were harme in the kepynge / whyle he can not defende the cō●rorye , but that there were incomparably mych more harme in the leuyn●e .

But by what waye he proueth that there is great hurt in the kepyng , that shall we now consyder . After whyche well examyned / I shall agayne retourne good readers efte soon vnto the fyrst , that this suyt ex officio taken onys away , the stretes w●re lykely to swarme full of heretykes . And as clere as you se that ponte al redy , and that this man hath therin neyther answered nor ones touched suche thynges as your selfe se that I sayd therin before : yet shall I make yt you anon , with the farther foly of his deuyse double ( ere we departe ) so clere .

Concernynge the seconde parte , thus lo thys man begynneth .

But ●o putte the partye that 〈◊〉 complayned on , 〈◊〉 answere , and to condempne hym , yf he saye contrarye to that the wytnesse haue sayde , not knowynge who ●e the wytnesse , ne who be hys accusere : yt s●meth not reasonable to be accepted for a law . For as I haue sayde in the sayd treatyse , yf he that is accused knewe theyr names that accused him , he myght percase allege and proue so great and so vehemen● cause of rancour and malyce in them that accuse hym , or beare wytnesse agaynst hym , that theyr sayenge● by no law ought to stande agaynst hym : as yf there were two men that had sworn the deth of an other● and bycause they can not brynge yt about , they ymagyne howe they maye brynge hym to all the shame and dexacyon that they can , and theruppon they apeche hym of heresye : yf he in thys case knew● theyr names , he myght proue theyr rancour and malyce . And bycause he knoweth them not , he can not proue yt . And also the wytnes may be such , as sha● haue his landes by eschete after hys deth .

And yf it be sayde , that these cases fall so seldome● that yt ought lytell to be pondred : so may yt be said lyke wyse , that it falleth but seldome , that the wytness●● in heresye stand in any feare of them , that they accuse . And then to make a generall lawe to prohybyte all men , that they shulde not haue knoweledge of the wytnes in no case , yt is not reasonable .

Now good readers one thynge opened vnto you whiche is trouth , which thys man of wylynesse hydeth from you , and wold make you wene the trouth were contrary : deuyde after that knowen all this myschyefe & vnreasonabylnes that he telleth vs here into .xx. partes / & with the bare knowledge of the one trouth , nynetene and a halfe of all hys false fayned mychyefes are gone .

The trouth is good chrysten readers , that except onely one case , wher of he speketh in his seuenth chapiter of his deuysyon , where to let the partie know the wytnesses were parell , to whyche I haue answered hym bothe in myne apologye fyrste , and synnys euen in this same chapyter byfore : elles in all other cases , the wytnesses , whose deposicions shal be taken & layed agaynste hym to proue hym an heretyque , and vppon whyche deposycyon sentence of condemnynge hym for an heretyke shall be gyuen agaynste hym , he shall se theym and shall here theyre deposycyons to . So that yf there be any suche great causes , as this good man here ymagyneth that myght happen , of enimyte , or hope of lucre , or any mych lesse either , the iudge both may and wyll consyder them before the sentence .

But why shall he not know them forth with , when he is fyrs●e conuented ? For yt were not well done he shold , no more then the kynges counsayle that many tymes call malefactours byfore them vppon secrete informacyon fyrste , vse alway there by & by to dysclose who told them the mater and what / whych if they shold and by and by brynge hym forth , then though the suspecte wold confesse happely some thynge therby the sooner : yet sholde it be but that thynge which he thought the tother knew . where as whyle the thyefe knoweth not who hath gyuen the informacyon , and yet thynketh by his examynacyon that among his many felowes though they be theuys all , yet some false shrewes there be , he mysse gesseth among and weneth yt were one where in dede yt was a nother / & so in stede of one felonye , to lyght there cometh twayne .

But at a nother time & in an other place , byfore he shall haue any iudgement theruppon , he shall commenly se them sworen and here them speke to .

And here I ●●y commenly , bycause that sometyme percase in poynt of iugement he shall not haue them brought forth and sworen in his presence , nor peraduenture neuer heare them speke in the mater . For they may happen to be some , that deposed and died to before hym selfe were taken / and some happely that were his felowes confessed his felonyes at the galowes , when they were on the lather . And some peraduenture bycame approuers vhen they were caste , and called for a coroner / and the lawe kepynge no store of him but hangyng hym vp forthwith , vseth yet his informacyon & all these other to , whych may happen to come so many to gether & so likely to be trew , that his lyfe may go therfore , and he well worthy to , and yet neyther hym selfe nor th enqueste neuer here any one witnesse sworen , neither the fyrst nor the second , neyther at th endyghtynge nor at hys arreyghnynge neyther .

Nowe maye yt so fortune in lyke wyse and sometyme so doth it to , that folke some good and honeste depose in cause of heresye agaynst some one man that is detected therof . And happely there depose also some other of hys owne affynyte / and in deposynge agaynst that one man detecte by theyr deposycyons , a noth●r man of the selfe same companye that is then walked farre of , no man can tel where , the appereth playnly vpon al theyr othes peraduenture the very chyefe heretyke of all . If he happe longe after when these wytnesses be dede , to come agayne in to the countrey and teache heresyes a freshe , and one or twayne detecte hym / they shall now be sworen and shall be brought forthe face to face byfore hym , that he shall obiecte agaynste theym what he can byfore his iudgement passe . But yet those olde deposycyons shall not serue for nought , but are admonicula probationis , though the men be dede . And agaynst all reason were it that it were otherwyse . Howe be yt what they sayde he shall here / and also who they were .

Lo this is good chrysten readers the maner of that suyte , wherof this good man wold here make vs wene the contrarye , and that men were commenly condempned of heresye by deposycyons of those men whome he sholde neuer knowe . And therfore syth the trouth is in dede , that all the wrong whych he speketh of , he groundeth vpon a playn vntrouth , though he make not thys lye wyttyngly him self , but hering some folke say so , weneth that yt were trewe : yet is as I sayde before all his reason spylt / and as I tolde you the harme that he sayeth in that poynt if he shold dyuyde it into ●wenty partes , xix . partes and an halfe were nowe clerely gone . For there remayned but y● one case which he wolde haue here seme comen , and yet in his seuenth chapytre of his fyrst boke he declareth hym selfe that the case is but specyall , that is to wytte , where the witnesses are kepte away for fere / elles in all the remanaunt this mannys harmes that he layeth here agaynste the law be very clerely gone .

And therfore his two gay cases of swerynge a mannys deth , & wynnynge a mannys land by eschete , haue place but in the specyall point of that one specyall lawe . And yet are his two cases suche as well consydered , are of no great effect . For yf we shold regard those two cases : the publyshynge of the wytnesses names wold seldome remedy the mater . For yt myght then as well hap , that such folke myghte hyre other that sholde beare suche false wytnesse as do the thynge theym selfe , and of lykelyhed so wolde they rather do .

But seynge that his cases for the farre fetchynge and lykelyhed of so seldome fortunynge , were lykely to be taken for fonde : yet for the fauour of his owne deuysynge he was lothe to scrape theym out , but excuseth the dyuysynge of them thus .

And yf yt be sayde that these cases fall so seldome that yt ought lytle to be pondered : so may it be sayd lyke wyse that yt falleth but seldome that the wytnesses in heresye stand in any fere of theym that they acc●se .

Nowe yf thys answere of hys were good & trew , that it happeth as seldome that the wytnesses stand in any such feare : then he soyleth hi● owne reason hym selfe . For than hathe he no cause to complayne for the law to kepe the wytnesse close , made but for to serue in that specyal seldome case , where it happeth such feare to fall .

And therfore is hys laste cause veryly not very shamefaste , where he maketh as though the lawe were made generall , to prohybyte all men that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesses in no case .

And as for in this poynte of hys , wheruppon all his whole mater hangeth , to shew you that he sayth playn vntrew , and groundeth all this gere of alwaye kepynge wytnesses close , vppon a playne open lye : I wyll for thys tyme take none other wytnesses agaynste hym but hys owne playne open wordes . For in his seuenth chapyter of hys dyuysyon , lo thus good readers he sayth .

And in the chapyter there , that begynneth Statuta quedam , it is decreed / that yf the byshoppe or other enquerours of heresye , se that any greate daunger myghte come to the accusour● or wytnes of heresye by the great power of theym that be accused : that then they maye commaunde , that the names of the accusours or wytnesse shall not be shewed but to the bysshoppe or enquerours / or suche other lerned men as be called to them , and that shall suffyce / though they be not shewed to the party . And for the more indempnyte of the sayde accusours and wytnes it is there decreed / that the byshoppe or enquerours may enioyne such as they haue shewed the names of such wytnes vnto / to kepe them close vppon payne of excommunycacion , for dysclosynge that secrete without theyr lycens . And surely this is a sore law / that a man shal be condempned / and not know the names of them that be causers therof .

Now good chrysten readers here you se playnely by his own wordes , that the cause of that law is specyall , & serueth but where as there is feare that the wytnesses myghte stande in dayngeour , by reason that the person detected were a man of great myght and power , which happeth very seld and almost neuer tyll it b● well nygh paste remedy . And therfore now you se by these wordes of hys owne , that those other wordis of his are to shamfull , where he now sayth here , that the law is generall , & forbedeth all men that they sholde not haue knowledge of the wytnesse in no case . vpon my fayth except this good man se better how to salue this sore than I se : I wolde not haue wryten such another poynt in my boke , for more than all the paper coste and the prentynge to .

But nowe as I saye , syth you se that al these gre●es of his be gone saue in this one onely case of so great probable feare , whyle he groundeth all the remanaunt vppon a greate open vn●rewth : it is you se well a very seldome gryefe that is lefte . For I neuer sawe , nor to my remembraunce● redde , nor trust in god neuer shall se the nede , that euer any great man who●● folke neded to fere , was condemned in thys realme for heresye , saue onely syr Hugh olde castle ones in the tyme of kyng Henry the .v. that was than lorde Cobbam / nor yet he neyther , tyll that thorowe his heresye he fell to treason to , and wolde haue ben the captayne of heretykes in a sodayne traytorouse insurreccyon .

And therfore as for thys harme that this good man telleth vs here , that ryseth by the suite ex officio in heresye , this poynte is as you se both reasonable yf it happed , and in lawe suffycyently prouyded fore / and yet besyde that so selde happeth here in this realm , that it was foly for hym to speke therof / and yet no more toucheth in dede the suite ex officio , thanne yf the suit were bygon and pursued by some great man , that wolde & fered not to professe hym selfe for accuser . And thus is this case vtterly nothing to purpose / & all the remanaunt is ( as you se also by his owne wordes proued ) grounded vpon great vntrouth . And therfore all this that he hath sayd set asyde for nought : let vs now se what other harme the good man fyndeth ferther . Lo good readers therin thus he sayth .

Also syr Tho. More denieth not , but that by reason of the law , ex de heretici● ca. Ad abolendam , which is recyted in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse ● a man may be dreuen ●o a purgacyon wythout any offence in hym , or be accursyd , as yf he be notably suspected , and yet not gylty , as it may well be : and yet he wyll not condescende , that that lawe shulde be chaunged , but sayth in fortyfyenge therof , that veryly he thynketh , that he whiche can not be proued gylty in heresy , and yet vseth such maner of wayes , that all hys honest neyghbours wene he were one / & therfore in theyr conscyence dare not swere that he is any other / is well worthy to do some penaunce . Truely thys is a merueylous persuasion , that a mā●hulde be put to hys purgacyon / bycause hys neyghbours dare not swere that he is no heretyke .

Now good readers bycause thys good man begynneth here to fortifye hys worde , wyth that that I dyd not in my sayd .xl. chapyter of myne apologye denye , that a man may be dreuen to a purgacyon wythout any offence in hym or be accursed , as yf he be notably suspected & yet not gylty : I wyll fyrst brynge you forth myne own wordes wryten in the sayd chapyter / and afterwarde than shall we se whyther he can take suche greate holde vppon my wordes , as he wold it sholde seme . Lo good readers these are my wordes . folio .220 .

It may be somtyme ( albe it very seld it happeth ) that in heresie vpon other vehement suspycyons wythout wytnesses , a man may be put to hys purgacyon , and to penaunce also yf he fayle therof / whyche thynge why so many sholde now thynke so harde a lawe as thys pacyfyer sayth there do I can not se / nor those wyse men neyther that made the law . And yet were they many wyse men / and not onely as wyse , but peraduenture many mo also in nomber , than those that thys pacyfyer calleth many now , that as he sayth now do fynde the faute . For though it be alledged in the extra . de hereticis : yet was that law made in a generall counsayle . And veryly me thynketh that he whyche can not be proued gylty in heresye , and yet vseth suche maner of wayes , that all hys honest neighbours wene he were one in dede , and therfore dare not swere that in theyr conscyence they thynke hym any other : is well worthy to do some panaunce for that maner of byhauour , wherby he geueth al other men occasion to take hym for so noughty .

Now good readers where thys man taketh me that I say a man may be dreuen to his purgacyon wythout offence : you se well I say not so / but I say that he doth a great offence , & well wurthy were to be dreuen to his purgacyon & to do penaunce to , if he be not able to purge hym selfe / but haue vsed hym selfe so lyke an heretyke in all good folkes opinion , that he can fynd no good folke that dare in theyr conscience swere that they thynke other wyse . This saye I is a great offence and worthy to dryue hym to this poynte . And this good man sayth that I denye not , but that he maye by the law be dreuyn to it without offence .

And where as he sayth I denye not that he may be dreuen therto without wytnesse : wherfore not I praye you ? For the suspycyons beyng proued by wytnesses , to be notable and vehement , wyll they not be cause sufficyent to dryue hym to pourge hym selfe of that infamy , or els to do penaunce for bryngyng hym selfe therin to , but yf there be wytnessys of hys expresse heretycall wordes ?

No sayth this good man , & meruayleth that I could thynk this any reason . But why he shold̄ so meruayle at the mater , or why I shold be ashamed to thinke so , therof telleth vs this good man no tale at all , but onely sayth , Truely thys is a meruelous persuasion , that a man sholde be put to his purgacyon bycause hys neyghbours dare not swere that he is none heretyke .

Meruelouse god where was this mannys mynde whan he wrote these wordes ? do I say that he shall be put to his purgacion , bicause his neighbours wyl not swere with him ? nay I say that whan there be by wytnesses sworen byfore his face , suspicions of heresie ꝓued vpon hym : than may th ordinary put hym to such purgacyon , to proue whyther they wyll swere wyth hym or no. For whan they wyll not but refuse it / what mad man wold say that he shal be put to that purgacyon than , whan he hath fayled therof , and yt all redy paste . This man speketh here as one that perceyued no pyece of the mater .

For where as I declare that he is in great offence that so vseth hym self , that none of his honest neighbours dare swere / that in theyr conscyences he is any other than an heretyke : this man taketh it as though they that sholde swere wyth hym in his purgacyon , sholde precysely swere that he were none heretyke / where as theyr othe shall not be what he is in dede , but what them selfe thynke of hys othe / they shall not swere that he is none heretyke , but that they byleue that he hath sworen trew , in denyeng th articles sayd vnto hys charge . Lyke as in the wageour of a lawe , they shall not swere that the defendaunt oweth not the money , but that they byleue that he swereth treuth .

I meruayle in good fayth that thys good man handeleth thys mater in this maner , & without any tellynge why , meruayleth so mych that I wold thynke that law reasonable .

But surely though he coulde make me a proper reason for his part , and my selfe another for the same syde also : yet wolde I thynke my selfe ryght vnreasonable , yf I shold vpon his reason & myn , aduise & counsayle this realme in a mater concernynge the conseruacyon of the fayth , to alter and chaunge that law that was made by so great aduyse , by an whole generall counsayle of all chrystendome / wherin there were ( I dowte it not ) men that had as good zele to kepe innocentes out of trouble , as any of vs twayne / and mych more reason also than we both haue to . But that point that I shewed hym in my apologye , that the same prouisyon that is made in the saw ad abolendam , was also made in a generall counsayle : the tale he letteth go by , as though he herde it not .

But than he cometh forth wyth a worde or two of a ferther fawte in the law , which eyther the man vnderstandeth not what in meneth , or ellys is it herd for any man to thynke that he meneth wel . These are his wordis so And veryly the law is that theyr othe in that case shulde not be accepted : for the sayde chapyter Ad abolendam , is that yf a man be notably suspected of heresye , that he shall purge hym selfe after the wyl of th ordinary or be accursed : and so the purgacyon of hy● neyghbour wyll not serue : Lette euery man therfore consyder , whether the sayd law be indysferent or not . And yf it be not , lette them put to theyr hande to haue it broken . And & thynke veryly , they shall deserue great thanke of god , yf they tourne it to a more indyfferent waye , then it is at nowe . For vnder thys maner the moost innocent man that is , may of malyce be reported to be suspected of heresye and be not so in dede , and so be dreuen to hys purgacyon or be accursed : and then there is another law , that yf he in that case of an indurate mynde stande so accursed a yere , he shal be punished as an heretike and that is by the law , Extra de hereticis , ca. Exc●municamu● .

This prouysyon good readers that he speketh , whyche is in the lawe ad abolendam , recited in the .v. boke of the decretalis in the tytle de hereticis that such as were suspecte shold purge them selfe at the arbitrement & discrecion of th ordynary , was as I before haue sayed afterward , loked vppon & alowed in the generall counsayle called consilium latranense , as euery man may soone perceyue that wyll well consyder the paragraffe exconmunicamus afterward in the same tytle . For where as the law there saith , Qui inuenti fuerit sola suspitione notabiles , nisi statim innocētiam suam congrua purgatione mōstrauerint : these wordis congrua purgatione be referred vnto the tother law ad abolendam therof made byfore , as bothe appereth by such doctours as wryte vpon the lawes / & also to hym that wyl consider it wel it wel appereth by the self text . For in the paragraf Excon . be rehersed part of the very wordes of the law● ad abolendam , wherby we may se that the counsayle there loked vpon that lawe . And so was I saye that prouisyon which this man calleth so vnreasonable , not onely made by pope Lucius the .iii. but after also made agayne by ratificacyō by pope Innocent the .iii. in an hose generall counsaile . And rede the stories who so wyll , and he shall fynde bothe by Platiua and Cronica cronicarum to , that both this pope Lucius and thys pope Innocent were very vertuouse men .

And here had it ben reason now therfore , that this good man sith he fyndeth in this point so gret a fawt in the wittis of both these good popes , & in al them that were membres of that generall counsayle , and in all the wyttis of al chrysten regyons that haue vsed and allowed that lawe for good euer synnys : reason wolde I say / that he sholde at the leste haue layed some reason here , wherfore the lawe can not please hym , that he whiche though he be not proued gysty of the dede , is yet proued suspecte , shold purge hym selfe after th arbitrement of th ordinary , that is to wytte in suche maner wyse as th ordynary sholde thynke conuenyent , vpon the qualytees of that person & cyrcumstaunces of the cause consydered .

Suppose now that there were none other maner of purgacion , but by his neyghbours swerynge wyth hym , & that those wordis ad arbitrium epi were not writen in the law : were it yet reason to accepte his oth in what so euer maner the man wolde hym selfe deuyse it ? and with as few handes as hym selfe lyste appoynt ? and with what maner folke so euer hym selfe wolde brynge ?

Nay syr . For it may so be , that there shal be good cause why somtyme and in some place , that th ordynary sholde not putte some man to that kynde of purgacion which yf he dyd , were he neuer so noughty , he shold be sure of compurgatours , peraduenture mo than inough . For it hath ben sene in many cuntreys ere this & somtyme in england to , that some euyll precher prechyng playne open heresyes , shold yet ( if he myght haue ben put to such purgacyon ) haue lacked none handes to lay on the boke with hym , that he neuer spake suche wordes .

How be it where the wordis are open & playn heresye , the law hath ꝓuided an other way for the remedy good inough

But than haue there ben some prechers such ere this , the techyng playne heresies to theyr familiars secretely , wold prech in such wyse abrode , that theyr wordis shold haue two senses , & one bote serue for eyther legge like a shypmans hose / & so shold be tempered as the peple shold haue occasyon alway to take them to the wurst / and hym selfe yf he were examined wold say before th ordinary & swere to , that he neuer ment but the beste .

Now whan it shold by good wytnesses appere , that his maner was such the peple toke mych harme therby , & alwaye toke his wordis so that they thought he so ment them , that he purposed by them to set forth & aduaunce those thyngꝭ that were stark heresies in dede : yf th ordinary shold than appoint him with other compurgatours to purge this suspicion , were these suspicions neuer so vehement , he shold lacke no compurgatours to purge hym self euery weke , & than do as he dyd before . And many good symple folke takyng him euen as he ment , shold fall into his heresyes the whyle / & wene while he preched so styll , that to byleue the way were no perell . And therfore those wise men that made the law , left the thyng in th ordinarys discrecion to assigne hym that is proued suspect of heresy , such kynde of purgacyon as the cyrcumstaunces of the person , and the peple and the tyme shall most requyre .

And therfore wyll th ordynary to some man so suspecte , somtyme assygne hym ( to purge his suspycyon that with his lewd maner of prechynge he is fallen in , to the greate hurte of his herers ) that he shall openly confesse that those heresyes that the people toke hym to mene , be very salse here syes in dede / and openly shall deteste them and swere that he so byleueth them to be / and swere that he neither ment to teche theym , nor neuer was mynded that any man shold take hym so , nor neuer wold afterward teche nor hold heresies , but abiure them for euer .

And yet for the ferther purgacyon of such suspicion , the ordynary myght also enioyne hym some certayn thynges to do , suche as maye declare the more clereli , that he is not of such mind / as open prechyng agaynste the selfe same heresyes , & the doynge of some suche thynges as those heresyes dyd stande agaynste .

And now by this purgacyon thys good shall he do , that yf he wolde after preache the same thynges agayne though he vsed agayne such a nother wyly fashyon : yet wolde his audyence then thynke thus ( as many as hadde any mynde to be good ) eyther this man meaneth nowe by his wordes to teache vs that poynt that hym selfe hath abiured , and then lette vs not lerne the thynge of hym that he wolde in no wyse we shold / or elles he meaneth to t●ache yt vs styll for al his abiuracion . And then wherfore sholde we be so madde to byleue a false wreche , that wold make vs byleue now , that that thynge were trewe / whyche hym selfe hath openly confessed and sworen to be false .

But then wyll happely this good man say , that this abiuracyon is perylouse for iubardye of the relapse . The parell of deth by relapse is not vppon euery abiuracyon . But of trouth he that is abiured vppon such thynges proued , as maketh hym not sleyghtly but very vehemently suspected , yf he fall after into heresye , putteth hym selfe in parell to fall into the fyre . And very good reason yt is that yt be so . And a man may some tyme be so suspecte of felony by reason of sore presumpcyons , that though no man saw hym do yt , nor hym selfe neuer confesse yt , but saye and swere to that he neuer hadde yt : yet may he be founden gyltye of yt , and theruppon hanged for yt , and haue no wronge at all .

And thus this prouysyon for purgacyon at the dyscrecyon of the ordynarye , is not I truste so vnreasonable , nor they so vnreasonable that made yt , nor they so vnreasonable that ratified it , nor al they so vnresonable that thys two or thre hundred yere haue accepted and allowed yt , but that yt maye nowe stande by thys good mannys leue at this daye as well as yt hath standen all this whyle before . But yet is there one thing that he taketh for a thing very sore . For than is there ( sayth he ) a nother law that if he that is so proued suspect , refuse to pourge hym self at the discrecyon of th ordynary , and be for hys con●umacy excommunycate : that in that case yf he of an obdurate harte stande so accursed an whole yere , he shal be punyshed as an heretyke . And that ys ( as he sayth ) by the law Extra de hereticis , capitulo Excommunicamus .

This prouisyon was made as I tolde you in the sayde generall counsayle . And where he bringeth it forth as though yt were a very sore thyng and a cruell : yt is in dede very fauorable . For sauynge that I wyll not do as he doth , go fynd fautes in their doynges , that were so many so mych better , and had so myche more wytte then I : elles could I lay a lytle better cause to proue that prouysyon ouer fauorable , then euer this good man shall fynde whyle he lyueth , to proue that prouysyon to sore .

And surely he that beynge proued suspect , and refuseth in such reasonable maner to purge hym self therof , as his ordynarye shall by his dyscrecyon assygne hym , whych must both by lawe & all reason be his iudge and not hym self , sheweth hym self lytle to force or care , though folke wene he were an heretyque : whych thyng sore aggreueth the suspycyon that he veryly is one in dede . And then when he wyll rather be ones accursed , then of suche suspycyon yet to purge and clere hym selfe : he yet encreaseth the suspycyon twyse so sore . But fynally when rather then to purge that suspycyon , he contynueth excommunycated all the whole yere , and neuer wyll be purged in the whyle , but yf he maye haue yt accepted in suche a faynte fashyon as hym selfe lyste to offre : the suspycyon of his heresyes from sore and vehement , tourne by suche dealynge into pleyne open and vyolent , so that he can in reason be none other rekened but a playne heretyque in dede , whome to tolerate so longe doth somtyme lytle good . And then syth the law is , that such as the fauour of the chyrche shall preserue from the temporall handes , shold by the lawe be onely those , which vpon theyr deteccyon , tourne of theyr own offre mekely by and by , and shewe good tokens of ryghte harty repentaunce : I wyll let no man from th inclinacyon towarde pytye , in preseruynge the lyfe of any man / when so euer he seme penytent . But yet surely when the chyrch receyueth agayne that man , that by his obstynate dealynge , wyth abydynge excomunicate and contempnyng the great curse all the whole yere , rather then he wolde purge the suspycyon of his heresye , but yf he may purge it after his own swete wyll , proueth hym self at last , to haue ben an heretyque so longe , & all that whyle wold not retourne but euer more drawe bakke : yf th ordynary for all that receyue hym to grace agayne , and kepe hym styll and preserue him from the seculare handes : I wyll not saye that he doth wrong / but fyndynge hym yet repentaunte , fayne wolde I se hym saued .

But yet wythout doute as farre as I can se , th ordinary to saue the mannys lyfe of pytye , strecheth out wyth his teth the lawe and reason both , so farre that euyn scantely can any of the both holde .

And therfore these lawes beynge suche as they be , made and ratyfyed by whole generall counsayle , accepted and vsed so longe thorow al chrystendome : when thys good man cometh now forth , and vppon his own bare reason as bare as euer I herd yet in all my lyfe , bycause onely that an innocente may somtyme take harme , whyche may happen vppon any lawe that euer all the world can make , wherby there shal be deuysed any punyshment for the euyl folke , he byddeth euery man consyder nowe whyther the law be iuste or not , & if it be not , byddeth euery man put to theyr handes to haue yt broken and make a better , and sayeth that he thynketh they shall haue great thanke of god therfore : his request is now no better , but in effecte euyn this , that agaynste euery wyse mannes reason well approued hytherto , euery man shold in this mater now , eyther trust vnto his , or els at the lest wise euery man to his owne / and in stede of a better old law , make a new mych worse . For if his deuise were folowed : it appereth playnely so there sholde / and heresyes sholde grow vp on heyght , and the catholyque fayth decaye . And then god saue vs frome that thanke of god that shortely we shold wyth such dealynge deserue .

Thus haue I good readers as you se clerely confuted this good mannys answere in bothe the pryncypa●● poyntes , of whyche the tone was wherin he mynded to shewe that in heresye the suyte of offyce myghte be lefte , and that by the leuyng there shold none harme folow to the catholyque faythe / bycause heretyques myght as well come to correccyon by the waye of open accusers as by that maner suyte .

But in this poynte you haue sene clerely , that his deuyse wolde neuer so serue the mater / but that yt were very lykely so to mynyshe in thys realme the catholyque fayth with encrease of heresyes , that th indygnacyon of god were sore to be fered therby to folowe theron : and the realme to fall in trouble and besynesse , with insurreccion of the same rebellyous● heretyques , that by the chaunge of that law had so bene suffred to grow as other countreys haue ben of late , and this realme was ere this so nere lyke to haue ben / that for thauoyding of the lyke parell to fall afterwarde , yt prouyded by parlyament of great polycye / for the better repressyng of heresyes , to fortyfye that lawe and gyue th ordynaryes yet greater power to maynteyne yt / and wyth temporall assystence to make yt more strong .

His secunde poynte was to shew that of the kepynge of that law , there sholde growe great harme / bycause the law is so vnreasonable he sayth , that innocentes may come to trouble therby wythout offence .

This parte howe properly thys good man hath proued , that haue you sene also / and that he therin is so full and whole confuted , that when he readeth yt agayne , I suppose he will not now greatly lyke it .

Now these two thus handeled he cometh to the thyrde poynte , whyche though I graunted hym all to gether , yet were he neuer the nere . For that poynt is suche as yf I wynne it , thanne it maketh my parte more playne : but on the tother syde yf I loste it & he wanne it , yet were myne playne inough . And stronge inough were my part wyth the fyrste poynt alone . For yf by the leuynge of the suit of office shold folow th encreace of heretikes , as euery man I thynke that wyt hath , may well se that there wolde / than though there wold some other harme happen somtyme therof , yet must that other harme in reason , rather be borne than that .

But now to come good readers vnto the thyrde poynt , whyche yf he wan all together coulde very lytell serue hym / ye shall se hym yet by goddes grace , wynne hym neuer a pyece .

The thyrde poynt good readers in myn apology you se well your self entendeth nothynge ellys , but by en●emple of the comen lawes of thys realme , to shew that the same spyrytuall law , whyche this man wolde proue vnreasonable , is not in d●de proued vnreasonable by thys thyng that he here putteth for the ꝓfe / that is to saye , bycause that by that lawe sometyme yt myght happe that a man myght fall in parell of a cryme whyche he commytted not . For yf yt so were nowe , that in all the cases that I rehersed of the commen lawe , there coulde neuer no man that hadde not done the dede , take any harme so myche as a phylyppe / yet though I hadde myssed in those ensamples , the th●nge myghte yet be trewe . For there m●ghte be for all that , other ensa●ples ynough , bothe in other good la●es and in the same to , th●● a lawe w●re not vnreasonab●● , nor to be put a 〈…〉 myght hap●e somtime some m●n take some harme that neuer dyd the dede that were layde to his charge . And of trouth this conclusyon is so clere that yt nedeth no profe at all . And therfore though he wanne al that poynt / yet hadde he loste the mater . But let vs now a lytle se whether he wynne thys poynte or no.

And bycause the effecte of all hys answere lyeth all waye in this , that he sayeth all waye that the sample of the comen lawe that I laye , is not lyke the thynge that I resemble yt vnto in the spyrytuall lawe : I shall fyrste reherse you myn owne wordes in myne apologye / and then shall I reherse you hys wordes here , ●●at when you haue herd bothe tw●yne , whether they be lyke or vnlyke ye ●aye the m●re surely iuge . These were 〈…〉 aders m● w●rdes .

And 〈…〉 thynketh t●at he whych can not be proued gylty●●n heresye , and yet v●eth suche man●r o● wayes that all hys honeste neyghbours wene he were one , and therfore dare not swere that in theyr conscience they thynke hym any other / is well worthye me thynketh to do some penaunce for that maner of byhauour , wherby he geueth all other folke occasyon to take hym for so noughtye .

And by the comen law of this realme , many tymes vppon suspycyon the iuges a warde write to enquyre of what fame and behauour the man ys in his countrey / and hym self lyeth somtyme styll in pryson tyll the retourne / and yf he be returned good , that is to wyt yf he be in a maner purged , then is he delyuered / & yet he payeth his fees ere he go . And yf he be retourned noughte / then vse the iuges to bynde hym for hys good aberynge , and som tyme suertyes wyth hym to , suche as theyr dyscrecyon will allowe . And then to lye styll tyll he fynde theym , is somtyme as myche penaunce to the tone , as the spyrytuall iudge in●oyneth to the tother . For the tone cometh to the barre as openly as the tother to the consystorye / and somtyme hys feters waye a good pyece of a fagotte , bysydes that they lye lenger on the tone mannys legges , then the fagotte on the tothers sholdre . And yet ys there no remedye but bothe these must be done , both in the tone court and in the tother / or ellys in stede of one harme ( whych to hym that deserueth yt not happeth seldome , and as seldome I am sure in heresye as in thefte , and myche more seldome to ) ye shall haue tenne tymes more harme happen dayly to folke as innocent as they / and of innocentes many made nocentes , to the destruccyon of theym selfe and other to , bothe in goodes bodye and soule .

To thys pyece lo good reader thys is this good mannys answere .

Then he goeth further for mayntenaunce of the sayde suyte Ex officio , and resembleth it to arestyng for suspecyon of felonye , and to the suertye of good aberynge , and to indytementes : wheruppon men be put to answere at the commen lawe . And how farre these resemblances varye from the suyte Ex officio , he in some place openeth yt hym selfe . But yet for a more playne declaracyon therin , I shall saye a lytle farther in that mater . Fyrst as to the arres●ynge for suspycyon of felonye , yt is in dede an olde lawe of thys realme , that for suspycyon of felonye , a man may be arrested , so that he that doth arres●e hym vppon a reasonable cause , doth suspecte hym : but yt is a generall rule , that he shall neuer be put to answere vpon that arreste , but proclamacyon shal be made that yf any man wyll lay any thynge agaynst hym , that is so suspected , that it shal be herde : & yf none such come he shal be delyuered without fine or a●y other punyshment , with a good exhortacion of the iudges , that he shall take good hede howe he ordereth hym selfe in tyme to come . And then mayster More lykeneth the penaunce of suche a man that hath ben in pryson vppon suspycyon of felonye , and so delyuered by proclamacyon , to the bearynge of a fagotte for heresye . For he sayth , that the one of them shal come as openly to the barre as the other to the consystory : And that sometyme his fetters shall ●ey a good pece of the fagot , besydes that they lye lenger on the one mannys legges , then the fagotte on the other mannys shulder : but he reherseth not howe they lye many tymes lenger in pryson for heresye , then they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge . And ouer that I dare say , that there are but few , but that they hadde wel leuer abyde the payne to be thryse acquyted by proclamacyon , and peraduenture ofter , them ones beare a fagot for heresy .

Howe goeth nowe good readers thys answere of thys good man vnto the purpose , to proue the trouble of hym that ys arrested vppon suspycyon of felonye , to be vnlyke to the trouble of hym that ys sued ex officio for heresye , touchynge the poynte that I resemble theym for ?

The point ye wote wel for whyche I speke of th arrestyng for suspycyon of felonye , is to shew , that lyke wyse as yt may happen a man for heresye to fall in trouble sometyme though he were none heretike in dede● : so may yt happen a man somtyme to be troubled vppon suspycyon of fel●nye , though he be no felon in dede : and yet bothe the tone lawe necessarye and the tother to / and neyther of bothe maye be forborne . Hathe this good man proued vs the contrarye of this ? that you se well he hath not . And then hathe he not perdye proued them vnlyke .

He weneth he sayth somewhat , whan he telleth vs that vpon th arrestynge vppon suspycyon of felonye he shall not be put to answere tyll he be indighted . What is hys trouble the lesse for that ? If he lye in pryson tyll the sessyon as he maye happe to do were it not more his ease to be putte to answere before and acquytte , yf he be not fawty ( for of suche folke we speke ) than for lacke of puttynge to answere lye styll in pryson the lenger ?

As for that , that in conclusyon yf no man laye nought to his charge at the sessyons , he shall be delyuered by proclamacions / so shall he that is suspected of heresye to : For yf there be nothynge founden agaynste hym , he shall neyther be dreuen to abiuracyon nor purga●ion , but be deliuered quyte , how so euer that eyther thy● man myssetake or wolde make other men myssetake the mater to the contrary .

And as to that , that the tone shall pay no fyne / no more shall the tother neyther .

Yf this man wyll peraduenture say , syth that th ordinary fyndeth the man not suspect in the ende , why dyd he take and arreste hym for suspecte in the begynnynge . Bycause that in the begynnyng the man semed vpon good consyderacyons suspecte , and semed lykely to fle , and vppon his examynacyon the mater full serched out , the causes of suspycyon so well auoyded , that th ordynary declareth hym for dyscharged wythout any other purgacyon . But yet hath it myshapped hym to haue some harme the meane whyle / and so hath it hym also that was arrested vppon suspycyon of felony that neuer was after indyghted , but delyuered forth fre vpon the proclamacyon .

I se no great dyfference bytwene these two men in all this mater yet , saue that the tone lyeth at his owne fyndynge , the tother at the bysshoppes coste .

For where as this man sayth , that he whyche is delyuered by proclamacyon , hath , alwaye geuen hym by the iustycis a good lesson at his departing : yf the bysshoppe geue not the tother a good lesson at hys departynge to , than is he somwhat to blame in dede / but in ●ood fayth I here saye that he doth so to . And therfore where is this dyfference yet ? I loke alwaye for that . For as for the shame of open brynging forth , is both one as I said / sauynge that the sessyon hath comenly mych more people present to gase vppon the tone , than in the consystory loketh vppon the tother .

And where thys man sayth , that they lye lenger in pryson for heresye , than they do eyther for suspycyon of felonye or for good aberynge / yf he speke of those whyche are in conclusyon founden in no more fawte concernynge heresye , than those are that are deliuered by ꝓclamacion be founden at the sessyon concernynge felony / I dare be bolde to tell hym nay . And I am very sure the trouth wyll proue so to . But now yf he speke of those that appere vppon th ende in suche fawte that by the law they be bounden to abiure / than is it good reason that they lye lenger in dede . And so lye there as reason is sometyme some for felonye to , repryed vpon causys from one sessyon to another , and somtyme kepte you se well all the whole yere and more . And that somtyme such as are in conclusyon neuer indyghted neyther , but after all that delyuered by proclamacyon , and yet good causes in the meane whyle why they were kepte so . And therfore where as this man sayth , that they be in worse case that bere a fagotte , very trouth it ys somewhat and so is it reason they be . For they be not fawtelesse but conuicted of the fawte . And our dyspycyons is of innocentes that happen by the lawe , the tone lawe or the tother , to take harme without theyr fawte . For yf he wolde compare the fawty with the fawtye , than must he compare the tone berynge the faggotte , with the tother at the very fyrste tyme borne vppe wyth the rope .

And therfore I dyd in that place , not onely shew● that he that is innocent , maye by arrestynge for felonye happe to haue as myche harme , as he that is innocent and arrested for heresye : but that he maye happen to haue sometyme also as mych harme , as he that for the fyrst tyme is founden fawty in heresye and playnely conuycted therof . And surely saue for the ferther perell vppon hys ferther fawte , so maye it happe in dede and yet as I sayed in my dyaloge the lawe muste nedes be kepte , but yf you wyll by the chaunge haue fyue theuys for one . And thus as for this pyece of arrestynge for suspycion of felony , the case hath he not proued vnlyke , towchynge the purpose that I putte it for , but for my parte very stronge . And so hath thys good man in thys fyrst pyece of the thyrde point a very great fall .

Than cometh he nexte vnto another case that I spake of also , that is to wyt arrestynge vppon good aberynge . And where as in myne apologye that pyece is the thyrde , the pyece in hys answere he maketh the second / and I se why well inough . For syth hym selfe seeth that he answereth it so slenderly , he wrappeth it vp in the myddes , bycause it sholde be the lesse marked , and wold ende with another pyece wherin hym selfe weneth tha● he sayth somwhat better .

Now as for this good aberynge , to th ende that ye may se the better how gayly this good man answereth it , I shall fyrste reherse you the wordes of myne apology that he maketh this answere to .

After that I haue sheweth there , that the iudges of the spyrytuall court be not so folysshe , but that they had leuer not medle with any man , saue onely vppon some suche open inquisycyon as are indyghtementes of felonye for auoydynge of obloquy , sauyng that necessyte compelleth them to take thys way , for feare that with sufferaunce of heresyes to go forth & grow , all myghte at length thorow goddes displeasure very farre grow to nought / I say there farther thus folio .225 .

Necessyte somtyme causeth also both the temporall iuges and the kynges counsayle , to put some folke to busynesse or dyshonestye somtyme , wythout eyther iury or bryngynge of the accuser to the profe of the mater in the partyes presence .

For yf the iudge knowe by sure enformacyon , that some one man is of such euyll demeanure amonge his neyghbours , that they may not ●ere it / and yet that the man is bysyde so vyolent and so iuberdouse , that none of them dare be aknowen to speke of it : wyll there no iudges vpon many secrete complayntes made vnto them , without makynge the party preuye who tolde hym that tale , bynde that busy troubelouse man to good aberynge ? I suppose yes , and haue sene it so to / and wronge wolde it be some tyme wyth good pore peasyble folke in the countrey , but yf it were so done amonge . And my selfe whan I was chauncellour , vpon suche secrete enformacyon haue put some out of commyssyon and offyce of iustyce of the peace , whyche els for mych money I wold not haue done , & yet yf I were in the tone rome styll and they in the tother agayne , but yf they be mended ( wherof I neyther than sawe nor ye● here any lykelyhed ) I wold put them out agayne , and neuer tell them who told me the tales that made me so to do●

Lo good readers here you se , that in thys pyece I mene nothynge els , but that where as this good man fyndeth a fawte that the spyrytual iudge sholde medle wyth any man for heresye without an open accusour complaynyng to hym , or an open presentement in the begynnyng / I shew there that necessyte is the cause , and forth wyth afterwarde I proue it , whiche thys good man dyssembleth here and inuerteth here th ordre for the nonys . And I shew that necessite ( lest mych more harme sholde grow theron ) causeth the temporall iudges & the kynges honorable counsayle to , to putte some man to busynesse somtyme and so to dishonesty both , without eyther indyghtement , or open accusour , or suffryng hym to make answere eyther / and thus be they fayne to do , but yf they shold suffre many great harmes to growe . Now marke well I requyre you how substancyally thys good man answereth thys . These are hys wyse wordes so .

And then as to the arrestynge for good abearynge , trouth it is , that a man by commaundement of the iustyces may so be arrestyd , but he shall neuer be put to answere vppon that arrest , but onely bounde , and suretyes with hym of his good aberynge . And yf he can no suche surety fynde , and he haue lyen there longe in pryson , then the● iuges by theyr ●yscresyon may sende a wrytte to enquere of hys fame , and of hys behauour , whyche is called a wryt de gestu et fama● wherof syr Tho. More maketh mencyon in hys apologye : and yf it be founde for hym vppon that wrytte , that he is of good fame and behauour , then he shal be delyuered . Wherby mayster More sayth , he is in a maner purged , and by that sayenge it semeth that hys meanynge is , that that desyuerye shulde be resembled to hys purgacyon vppon the suspycyon of heresye , as is sayd before . But how ferre they be vnlyke , it appereth thus : when a man is delyuered vppon the sayd wrytte De gestu et fama , he is delynered ● as a man proued to be of good honestye and to be clered by hys neyghbours , of that he was spspected of . And when he is purged vpon the suyte E● officio , or for suspicion of heresye , he is put to penaunce by th ordynarye , as a man suspected , wherof he is not clered , and so shall he be taken amonge his neyghbours , as a man worthy to do that penaunce for hys offences , wherfore it appereth ●uydentely , that they be nothynge lyke●

In this answere good reader one piece he answereth with an vntrouth another piece he leueth halfe vnanswered , and to another pyece he maketh none answere at all .

For where as he saith , that he that is purged of heresye in the suyte ex officio , is put vnto penaunce by the ordynary as a man suspecte , wherof he is not clered : this man sayth vntrewe , and woteth not also what he meneth . For the spyrytuall iudge not onely ( as I haue sayde ) though he were sore suspected in the beginnyng whan he toke hym , yet yf he fynde in the xamynacyon those suspicyons clered : he putteth hym to no ferther busynesse at all , but also yf it be not so fully clered , but that there remayne some tokens of suspycyon , of whych he thynke it good to pourge hym by the othe of hym self & some other cōpour gatours with hym , he putteth hym after that purgacion vnto no penaunce neyther . But now yf it so be , that there be wel ꝓued such suspicions as are so vehement , that though they proue not precysely the dede , yet make euery man that hereth them , that he can none other wyse thynke : there wyll the ordynary cause hym to abiure / and that rather to purge hym of the suspycyon that he were styll nought and afterwarde styll wolde be nought , than that he was such before . And than for vsyng hym self in such wyse before : though he do penaunce he hath but right . But in all those other cases of suspicion purged , he saith vntrew / for they do no penaunce at all .

Now concernynge the good aberynge awarded by the iustyces : he answereth that it is trew / but it is he sayth vnlyke vnto this mater , bycause the iustyces ( sayth he ) whan he hath long lyen in pryson , maye by theyr dyscrecyon ( yf he can fynd no suertyes ) a ward a wrytte de gestu et fama .

This is but half an answere , nor scant so mych neyther . For fyrst hym selfe sayth that this wryt they maye sende out after that the man hath long lyen in pryson / so that than the man yet wythout presentement or open accusour hath had that longe lyenge in pryson in the meane whyle for hys ●uyl demenure at home among hys neyghbours , wherof they durste not openly make complaynt . And thys doth as you se thys good man deny , whych is for my purpose inough .

But than saith he ferther for me , in that he sayth they may award that wrytte yf they wyll . wherin he implyeth that yf they wyl not , they may vpon good dyscrecyon lette hym yet lye styll & let the wrytte alone . And so hath he therfore putte in one poynt ferther for me .

But yet hath this good man one stoppe gappe for me styll , to proue alwaye that my sample is not lyke / and that is that where as in the suyte ex officio , men be put to answere vpon this arreste and imprysoment vppon good aberynge , the man shall neuer be putte to answere .

For answere of this euasyon I wyll aske this good man this , that he which is in pryson vpon good aberyng shall neuer be put to answere , whyther is it his profyte or his losse ? If his losse : than his not puttyng to answere , maketh the mater of my resemblyng , mych the more strong for me . And yf this good man dare answere me that it is his profite : than wyll I no more but praye hym to put the felow in choyse / & than yf hym selfe chose it for the better , let hym lye styl for me .

This you se good readers that this man sayth not nay , but that vpon good aberynge by dyscressyon of the iustyces , for all the wrytte de gestu & fama , a man maye lye longe in pryson & some peraduenture euer , how be it of trouth I trow it happeth not so .

And yet can neither this good man say , nor I suppose no man ellys , but that it maye somtyme happe by possybylyte , that all that informacyon were wronge . But that is a thynge not lykely to happe so often , but that yf we sholde for suche may happys , put away that ordre whiche order very necessyte brought vp : there wolde mych myschyefe grow , & many great harmes wold there than happe in dede .

Now as towchyng that I sayde , that the kynges counsayle vsed also somtyme vppon great secrete informacion to put some folke to busynes and to some dishonesty to / and I letted not to laye some sample in myne owne dede whyle I was chauncellour my self , by puttyng some out of commyssyon in theyr contreys / which dishonesty saue for such secrete informacyon , I wold not for an hundred pound haue done them , & dare yet vpon such se●ret informacion very well auow the doyng / & dowt not but that yf I sholde declare the cause openly , bothe good men & wyse men wold allow my dede : to all thys poynte lo this good man sayeth nothynge at all , but letteth it go by his eares as though he neuer herde it .

And thus as I tolde you , concernynge thys pyece of good aberynge : thys good answerer hath here borne hym selfe so wel , that some parte he answereth with vntrouth , some part he answereth a greate deale lesse than halfe , and some parte neuer a deale . If men be content to take this fashyon for answerynge : let any man make than agaynste me as many bokes as he wyll , and putte in what mater he lyst , and I shall neuer nede to study mych for an answere , but may make answerys to theym all shortely and shorte inough , and answere a longe boke in space of one paper ●efe .

But now lette vs se how he handeleth this thyrde piece of endyghtementes at the sessyons . For that pyece he setteth in the rere warde , to staye therwyth all the felde . But nowe that you may se what strength he hath in that warde : I shall fyrste brynge you forth that warde agaynst whyche yt fyghteth . In myne apologye fo. cc.xxii . these are mye wordes lo.

And bycause thys pacyfyer taketh yt for so sore a thynge in the spyrytuall lawe , that a man shall be called ex officio for heresy , where he shal not know his accuser : yf we sholde chaunge the spyrytuall lawe for that cause , them hadde we nede to chaunge the temporall to , in some suche poyntes as chaunge yt when ye wyll , and ye shal chaunge yt into the worse for aughte that I can se , but yf it be better to haue mo theuys then fewer .

For now yf a man be endyghted at a sessyons , and none euydens geuen openly at the barre ( as many be , and many maye well be . For th endytours may haue euydence gyuen them a parte , ● or haue herde of the mater ere they came there , and of whome be they not bounden to tell , but be rather bounden to kepe yt close , for they be sworen to kepe the kynges counsayle and theyr owne ) shall then the partye that is endyghted be put vnto no besynesse aboute his acquytayle ? And who shall tell hym there the names of his accuser , to entytle hym to his wryte of conspyracye ? This pacyfyer wyll peraduenture saye , that the same twelue men / that are hys endyghtours are his accusers , & therfore he may know them . But what helpeth that his vndeserued vexacyon yf he were fauteless ? For amendes the law geueth him none agaynst any of them , nor it were not well done he sholde / but may when he is after by other .xii. acquyte , go gette hym home and be mery that he hath had so fayre a day / as a man getteth hym to the fyre and shaketh his hatte after a shoure of rayne .

And nowe as yt often happeth , that a man cometh into a shoure by his own ouersyght , though somtyme of chauns and of aduenture : so surely though somtyme yt happe that a man be accused or endyghted of malyce , or o● some lykelyhed whyche happed hym of chaunce and not his faute therin yet happeth yt in comparyson very selde , but that the partye by some demeanure of hym selfe gyueth occasyon that folke haue hym so suspected .

In this pyece my purpose is good reders as you se , to shewe that lyke wise as a man shall in the suyt ex officio for heresye , not knowe his accuser : so may yt also happen many tymes , that no more he shall neyther , when he is at the comen sawe indyghted of felonye . And I shewe also therin as you se , that though yt maye tometyme happe eyther of malyce or chaunce : yet yt seldome happeth for all that , that the partye so falleth in trouble without some defaute of hym selfe , and that the commen generall lawe maye not for such seldome specyall happes be forborne . To this pyece lo this good man answereth me thus .

And then mayster More sayth yet farther , that vppon indytementes at sessyons , the indyters vse not to shewe the names of theym that gaue them informacyon . And he sayeth farther , that they may not shewe theyr names . For they may not dysclose the kynges counsayle nor theyr owne . But as I take yt that prohybycyon of openynge of the counsayle in this case is onely to be vnderstande of theyr own co●●sayle amonge them selfe , after that they be sworne / but for openynge of the names of theym , that gaue them informacyon before they were sworn , I know no prohibicyon . And yf they wyl not shew theyr names , they be not bounden to do yt / for they be not bounde to helpe the partye to his wryt of conspyracy , but as they lyste to do in conscyence

Nowe good readers all this pretendyd defence , is nothynge ellys in effecte , but a fayre confessyon , that yt is in dede trew the thyng that I sayd my selfe , that he whych is endyghted of felony , maye be ( as for any adu●tage that he can take therby ) as ignoraunt somtyme who be his accusers , as he shall in the suyte ex officio . And therby may happen somtyme , that he whyche is fautelesse shall not be all saued harmelesse / and when he hathe hadde his harme , shal be remedylesse . And yet for all that the lawe not vnreasonable , nor for auoydynge of myche more harme may not be forborne . And therfore as for my purpose euen at that poynte myghte I haue left , and neded to go no farther . And then as you se this good man had ben quyte answerelesse .

But yet went I farther where me neded not , and that this good man sayth that I dyd of necessyte , wherof for this mater I hadde of trouth no nede . And yet wolde I not nowe but I so hadde done in dede . For I haue therby the better broughte to lyghte , what lacke thys good man hath of any suffycyent answere . For these are there lo good readers therin my farther wordes .

Nowe yf thys pacyfyer saye , that yet here ys at the leste wyse in a temporall inge an open cause apperyng , whereuppon men maye se that the iudge calleth hym not , but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym / where as the spyrytuall iudge maye call a man vppon his owne pleasure yf he bere the partye dyspleasure : thys is very well sayde as for the temporall iudge . But what sayth he now for the temporall .xii. men ? For ye wote well they maye do the same yf they were so dysposed / and then hadde I as leue the iudge myght do it as they . For in good faith I neuer saw the day yet , but that I durste as well trust the trouth of one iudge as of two iuryes . But the iudges be so wyse men , that for the auoydynge of obloquye , they wyl not be put in the truste .

And I dare saye the ordynaryes be not so folyshe neyther , but that they wolde as fayne auoyde yt to yf they myghte / sauynge that very necessyte leste all sholde fall to noughte , compelleth theym to take this waye .

Here you se that I meane in this wordes , that though the pacyfyer wolde tell me that the temporall iudge hath by suche endyghtement at the leste wyse , an open cause apperynge wheruppon a man maye se that the iudge calleth hym not of hys owne mynde , but vppon a mater broughte vnto hym : I wolde them graunte hym that thys is in dede a good ease to the temporall iudge , to kepe hym oute of obloquye . And the spyrytuall iuges be not so vnwyse , but that they wold be glad of such a nother pauyce sauynge that they be bounden to take the tother waye , and suffre them self euyl peples obloquye , for auoydyng of the harme that ellys wold folow , by the decay of Cristes catholyke faith . Whyche thynge I there proue well to , as you shall after se. This as I saye wolde I haue graunted allway thys good man . But then I wold allwaye therwythall haue tolde hym to , that yet all that tale of hys hadde nothyge touched the poynte / but that alwaye for all this tale , the man that was indyghted , yf the mater were in dede vntrew , was neuer the nerer the knowledge who were his accusers , to gete any amendes therby , no more then he that is called of offyce for heresye byfore a spyrytuall iudge . And here nowe what he sayth to this , and whyther we be by his answere for the poynt that was ment by me , any one ynch yet the nerer . Lo good readers this is hys proper answere .

And then bycause he can none otherwise do , but confesse a great dynersyte betwyxte them that be put to answere ex officio , and them that be putte to answere before the kynges iustyces vppon indytementes at the common lawe : for there the iudges haue suffycyent and apparant mater to put theym to answere vppon , and in the other there is none , but that the spyrytuall iudge vppon a dyspleasure may do yt ex officio , yf he wyll . Therfore he goeth yet farther and sayeth , that the .xii. men maye yet do the same , and make a man to be called that is not gyltye , yf they were so dysposed . And trouth yt is , they may indyte a man , that is absent , and that is also not gyltye , and be vntrewe , yf they wyll : but yet in suche case the .xii. men be knowen that do yt , and be also compelled to be vppon the inquyrye : for they maye not be vppon it , but they be therto assygned : and also the partye vppon theyre verdyte shall not be put to answere before theym , as yt is vpon the suyte Ex officio , but before the kynges iudges , before whome the indytement is no atteynder to the partie : but that he maye be founde not gyltye , not wythstandynge that indytement . And though mayster More saye , that he neuer saw the daye yet , but that he dursie as well truste the treuth of one iudge as of two iuryes : I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thanke f●r that preyse : for surely inryes must nedely be beleued and trusted . And therfore it is not the maner of the iudges to laye vntrouth vppon a iurye , ne yet to commende theym that do yt , but yt be proued afort them o●●ecorde after the order of the lawe .

Here you se good readers that touchynge the poynte that we spake of , all thys tale helpeth nothynge , but goeth all aboute a nother mater , to proue a nother dyfference betwene the suyte of offyce and indyghtementes , as though I had sayd there were no difference betwene them at all . But I was neuer yet so madde to be of that mynde . For then must I say they were both one . And then were euery endytement a suyte of offyce , & euery suit of offyce an indyghtement , yf there were no dyuersytees betwene them at all .

And therfore yf his dyuersyte shall serue aughte for the purpose : he muste make yt appere that the suyte of offyce bycause of that dyfference , and bycause yt is not lyke indyghtementes in that poynte , is therfore in heresye eyther very clerely nought , or ellys that at the lest wyse yt were somwhat better , that they sholde neuer put any man to answere in heresye , but eyther vppon open accusacyon or psentement had byfore . For els if he wene to wynne this poynt of me with shewynge forth a dyfference : if his difference proue me no such thyng as I tel you , he may for the mater as wel brynge vs forth any verse dyfference at aduenture , that he lerned at grammer scole .

Now when he hath layed al his dyuersyties on an hepe , & wold theruppon conclude , that bycause of those diue●syties , the suyte of officio were nought and vnresonable : I say that foloweth nothing : For it proueth yet no farther at the farthest , but that the order of the comen law were better , & not that the tother were nought . For it myght well be for al that , that the commen law might be good ynough , though they that secretly or openly come now & enforme the queste , came either secretly or openly , and lykewise enformed the court .

And now saw I well , that to this poynte was there none answere for this good man agayne / but to tell me that in such thingꝭ as they now trust the questes , it were parell in stede of ●uryes so myche to truste the courte , by cause the iuges myght then fayn mater agaynste men , and say they were secretely enformed . To this syth I saw what truste the realme must nedes put in the iudges handes , so farre aboue the wheyghte of the fyrste endyghtement , that serueth for nothynge but for an informacyon and seynge also what maner of men they be that be chosen to be iudges , so that there is nothynge of so great weyght but that yt well may be put in theyre handes : I rekened theym of suche trouth , that saue for euyll folkes obloquye , to them selfe warde / elles to the people there sholde come none harme , though the truste that we put in th endytours , were in stede of them put in the iudge hym selfe . This I there sayde lo , and this I thynke in dede . For as I sayde there , I neu●r saw yet the day , but that I durst as wel truste the trouthe of one iudge , as I durst truste the trouth of two iuryes . What hath this good man answered me nowe to this ? To all this gere here is lo his worsyppefull answere . I thynke the iudges wyll can hym but lytle thank● for that prayse . For surely iuryes must nedes be beleued and trusted . And therfore yt ys not the maner of the iudges , to lay vntrouth to a iurye / ne yet to commende them that do yt . But yt be proued afore them of recorde after the order of the lawe .

This answere of trouthe is not worthe a straw . For as for that he sayth the iudges wyll for that prayse can me lytle thanke : that word were somwhat , yf I hadde sayde it for theyr thanke . But I sayd it in good sayth , not for theyr thanke at al , but bycause yt is very trouth , that I neuer saw the day yet in dede , nor neuer I truste in god I shall , but that I may wel and so wyll I do in dede , ●rust the trouth of one iudge , as well as the trouth of two iuryes . I wolde here wytte of this good man , what disprayse is this to any iury ? what vntrewth is there here layed vnto them , or to any one man of them , I wyll vse one worde now this ones , whych this good man vseth often . For now wyll I saye a lytle farther , and that is this ( though this man maye happe to thynke the sayenge straunge ) I wyll not let to beleue the trouth of some one man , of whose trouth I make my selfe sure & doute nothyng at al , euen as wel as the trouthe of a great many at ones , though they be all suche as I beleue euery one of theym as well as I beleue hym selfe . And I also byleue some one iuge alone , not in connynge but in trouthe , as well as I wyll beleue both hym selfe & all his felowes to . For some one man may be suche , that if he shold tel me a tale as of his own perfyt knowlege : I wold so litle doute yt to be trew , that I could beleue yt no better , though all the town told yt with hym . Lo what a great vntrouth I lay here to the iuryes .

And this I say for my selfe . And now wyll I with this good mannys leue , saye yet a lytle farther , and I wene I sha●l not say so alone . I suppose veryly that there be very few , but so that it myghte make a fynall ende in theyr mater , excepte happely some such as trust more in the fauour of the countrey then in the trouthe of theyr cause : they wold rather be content to put yt whole into the iudges handes , then trouble the countrey wyth callynge vppe of the iuryes , whose trouth yet many tymes deceyueth them , that in an euyl cause haue very great truste vnto theym .

And yet in all this saye not I that the commen order and longe con●ytynued law of this realme , to trye the maters by iuryes , & in felony or treason neuer to ꝓcede but vpon endyghtementes , is not good / nor that the contrarye waye were better . Mary two thynges I saye , that in treason and felonye this ordynarye lawe of endyghtementes is many tymes fayn to be holpen forth by a nother meane , myche lyke in many thynges to the suyte ex officio / and that ys by dylygent polytyque serche and examynacyons bysyde , both by the kynges honorable counsayle , & the iuges , & iustyces of peace , euery man for theyr parte in euery parte of the realm / & els wold there many such mischiefꝭ passe by & by indightem●t neuer wold be founden . And some great and clerely proued felonyes byfore dyuerse and ryghte worshypfull of the kinges counsayl , haue I wyste ere thys , that neuer coulde be goten to be founden by endyghtement in theyre countreys , for all that . How be yt suche examynacyons hathe caused yet many myscheuouse people to be brought to theyre punyshement / and haue put also many suche other vnthryftes in fere , & made them refrayn fro theuyng and drawe them selfe to thryfte / or elies not wytstandynge that there are yet theuys ynough , there wold be wythout doute many mo .

The tother thynge that I wyll say is this , that all these dyfferences & dyuersyties that this good man putteth here , betwene indyghtementes & the suyte ex officio , proueth nothing that the suyte ex officio is not good / but onely at the very vttermost , that the ordre not to procede wythoute an open presentement were better . For 〈◊〉 sayd before , though this lawe by endyghtementꝭ be better in felony now : yet were not the tother waye nought , yf the lawe were so that the iudges myght procede and put felons to answere without endyghtementꝭ / as in treason is vsed in thys realme by the lawe marshall vppon warre rered , as we sawe by experyence in captayne Quintyn captayn Genyn Corbet and ●elke . And yet is that lawe not euyll , thoughe that oure owne comen law be better , and that though we truste the iuryes neuer so well , yet myght we truste the iudges as well . And this maye I saye me thynketh without any dysprayse or fawte fyndynge in the iuryes at all . For let him assygne me two iuryes of very well knowen good men / & than yf he wyll aske me what fawte fynd you syr in these men : I wyll answer hym , Mary syr no fawte at all I. I take them all for good men & trewe , and thynke they wyll not saye but treuth / nor I neuer sayd nor thought other wyse . But than wold I assygne hym by name one of oure iudges agayne / and say now syr that I truste the trouth of your two iuryes well , what fawte is that that you fynde in thys iudges trouth , that maketh you to chekke me so bycause I wyll trust h●m no wurse than I wyll truste them . For that is ye wote well al that euer I sayde , that I wolde trust the iudge as well , and not that I wolde truste hym better . And yet yf I had sayd I wolde of the bothe trus●e the iudge better : I hadde not by that word neyther , dyspraysed the trouth of iuryes . For he that sayth he wyll better bysene .xxiiii. than .xii , dysprayseth not the trouth of the petit iuries , but byleueth theym well also , saue suche as be founden false . And thus I haue shewed you that I may well say the wordes that I sayd , without any fyndynge of any fawte in any iuryes . And it app●reth also metely well , that hym selfe can not well say the contrary without some maner of dystrust in theyr trouth . And yet syth theyr wurshyppys be so well knowe that this good mannys dystruste can not apayre it : they wyll I dare saye forgeue hym . How be it sith the iudges wold ( as this man sayth , and as I dare also saye they wolde , be sore dyscontent wyth me , yf I dystrusted the ●routh of the iuryes : the iuryes may now no lesse do agayne of courtesye , than for his wurse opinion of the iudgis trouth somewhat be angry wyt● hym .

Nor herin se I none other shyfte for this good man , but for the mayntenaunce of hys mater to saye , that in the comen law , the law wold be good inough in felonye , though the truste were put in the iudges , to putte traytours and felons to answere wythout indyghtement / but in heresye it coulde not be good before an ordynarye / and wolde saye for hys cause a dyuersyte bytwene the tone iudge & the tother , and saye that oure iudges be good men and worshypful , & euer 〈◊〉 ben and euer shall / and that the ordynaryes be , and euer haue bene , & shal be , very false & nought . Other shyfte hath this man none that I se than euyn to saye thus . And veryly his boke of diuisyon , saue that it saith nothynge to the prayse of temporall iudges that I now remember : yet to the dysprayse of the spyrytuall , for those algates that be now , saith euyn in effecte as mych , ye and rather yet wurse to , saue that the colour of some say saueth hym from sayenge it hym selfe .

But now yf he defend hym selfe with that fasshyon agayne : what the iuryes wyll say that can I not tell / for the panellys be not yet called . But as for oure iudges , I knowe theyr wysedoms and theyr wurshyppys such , that I am very sure in his so sayenge and his so lyenge vppon the spyrituall iudges , they wolde can hym no thanke at all .

And veryly that the spyrytual ordinaryes be not at these dayes lykely to be such , the temporall iudges beyng so good as they be : there is amonge many other one lykelyhed this , that he hath chosen the tone that hath chosen the tother , the kynges gracyouse hyghnesse hym selfe / whiche hauyng on both sydes very good to chose of , hath I dare say ben as cyrcumspecte in chosynge of th ordynaryes , as of the iudges . And yet leste in theyr absence the offycers of theyr owne choyse might happe to misseordre the maters : his grace kepeth not two bysshoppes of all the realm out of theyr diocises , nor to say the trouth not so myche as one . For he whose attendaunce hys grace vseth moste , is far the moste parte of the yere in hys owne dyocise euery daye .

And therfore as I sayd before , all these verse dyfferences , and all these dyuersytees , whiche thys good man sayeth bytwen the suit ex ●fficio in heresye , & the not procedynge with out indyghtem●tes vpon treason or felony , proueth at the very fertheste not that the suit ex off●cio is noughte , but that not to procede but vpon a presentement w●re the better away . And than I saye that it is a pore tale and a colde , yf a man wolde come forth & labour vs to breke euery olde lawe longe vsed in this realme , whyche he could not proue but that it were good inough / but yet wolde nedes haue it chaunged , bycause that if it were now to make , hym selfe coulde he sayth make it better .

But now wyll I come a lytell nerer vnto this good man , wyth the ●o●he rpoynte that I towched before / that is to wytte that it is not in thys mat●r inough for this good man , to proue 〈◊〉 that not to procede wythout open o●●●sacion or presentement is the bet●er waye , bothe vppon treason and ●●●onye , but yf he proue vs ferther , i● a● the same waye were also better in heresye

But thanne haue I shewed byfore in myne apologye , that in heresye that waye wyll not serue . And that haue I there proued by the playneste profe that in suche maner thynges any man can make , that is to wytte by comon open experyence / wherunto thys good man of polycy wolde geue none eare , but in hys answere he hath left it quyte out .

And therein he fareth lo lyke a geste , that maketh hys rekenynge hym self without his hoste / which is therfore after fayne to reken agayn / as I shall nowe brynge in here one peny more into this good mannes rekenynge , whyche I perceyue well hym selfe wold very fayne forgete . Lo thus wrote I ferther good readers to wchynge thys poynte in that selfe same chapiter of myne apology folio . 226.

But yet wyll peraduenture thys pacyfyer saye , that sometyme in some very specyall case , he coulde be content that the spyrytuall iudge shold vpon hys● dyscrecyon call one for suspycyon of heresye ex officio / but he wolde not haue men comenly called , but eyther by accusacyon or presentement in theyr senys or endyghtementes at the comon lawe . I had as lyefe for any thynge that I se , that thys pacyfyer sholde say thus : By thys way that they be called I wolde not haue them called / but I wolde haue them called after suche an order as they myght be sure that than sholde they neuer be called . For as for accuse folke openly for heresye , euery man hath experyence inough , that ye shall seldome fynde any man that wyll / but yf the iudge shold set an officer of the court therto wythout any perell of expensys / and than were thys way and that way all of one effecte . And as for presentementes and endyghtementes , what effecte wolde come of them concernynge heresye , ye se the profe I trowe metely well all redy .

For thys is a thyng well knowen vnto euery man , that in euery sene , euery sessyon of peace , euery sessyon of gaole delyuery , euery lete thorough the realme , the fyrste thynge that the iury haue gyuen them in charge is heresye . And for all thys , thorow the whole realme how many presentementes be there made in the whole yere ? I wene in some seuen yere not one . And I suppose no man dowteth , but that in the meane time some there be . I wyll not be curiouse about the serchyng out of the cause , why it is eyther neuer or so very selde presented , not fyue in fyftene yere . But thys I saye that syth some wyl not , some can not , and none doth / yf he sholde put away the processe ex officio , the thyng shold be lefte vndone / and than shold soone after with heretykes encreaced and multyplied , the fayth be vndone / and after that thorough the stroke of god reuengyng theyr malyce and our neglygence , sholde by sedycyon , & trouble , and derth , & deth , in thys realme many men bothe good and badde be vndone . And therfore for conclusion of this pyece , my pore aduyce & counsayle shal be , that for heresye , and specyally now thys tyme , men shall suffer the pro●esses ex officio stande / and for as many other synnys also as are onely reformable by the spyrytuall law , excepte there be any such synnys of theym as ye thynke were good to growe .

What hath this good man good readers sayd vnto this pyece ? what shall we good reders say now to this good man ? that in this goodly answere of his , whiche he wolde were taken for so stronge , vnto this piece vppon whiche gr●at part of the mater hangeth , sayth not so mych as mum / but letteth it s●ippe euyn by , as though he were one that had as for this point ben born defe & therby dumme .

And now concernynge this poynt , I wyll yet saye a lytle ferther , that in places mo than one , good euidence haue ben geuen vnto questꝭ of playn & open heresye , whych yet wolde not fynde it / that wold vpon mych lesse euydence , haue shortely presented felony .

And one of these maters wyth the prest the preched it whan I was chauncellour , was brought vnto me by ryghte wurshupfull folke , that before me aduowed it in his face . And yet coulde not all they cause the quest to present it , but some folke bygan to fal to fauour hym / & had he not ben taken by good wurshypfull temporall men , many wold haue flocked after hym , & haue folowed hym about for pleasure of hys new fasshyon prechynge . And yet for all that flockyng , though they had made .ii. or .iii. hundred as they sholde hahpely within a whyle yf a few good men had not letted it : they had ben yet but an handfull to theyr good catholyke neyghbours / and yet by such flockynge togyther , and folowynge on a plumpe , they sholde haue semed in folkes eyen farre the more parte / and at length peraduenture yf they went on & were not letted , they myght grow to it in dede .

That preste I delyuered vnto his ordynary , and that with good and playne profe of his heresye / whyche was in dede soone after that abiured But for this I tell it you , that the iury wolde not fynde it for all the good folke that gaue them open euydence . And that this is not in one case , nor a thynge that happeth seld , as I sayd in myne apology , playne experyence prou●th . wherby you maye se , that in heresy yf the iudge sholde not ex officio procede , tyll the mater were presented by the iuryes : heretikes myght be bolde to procede on a pace and so they wold I warraunt you , and multyply full faste .

And thus you se good readers , that concernyng this pyece , this good man hath in euery point a gr●t ouerthrow .

And therfore now the last clause of this .xv. chapyter of his , is clerely wrested awry . For as though he had all proued , wh●re all is dysproued : he fynysheth hys chapyter thus .

And thus it appereth , that mays●er More can neyther proue the suyte Ex. officio to be lyke to the arrestyn●e of men for suspycyon of felonye , for good aberynge , to puttynge of men to answere vpon indytementes , ne yet to them that may be accused by .xii. men , and knowe not of it , and tha● for the causes before remembred . Wherfore it semeth , that though it were clerely putte awaye , the stretes shulde not swarme full of heretykes neuer a whyt .

This good man sayth here I can not proue any of al these thyngeꝭ like . But euery man may wel se , that lyst to loke backe and rede it , that there is not any one piece of all these that he speketh of , but I haue very playnely proued it very lyke , for the purpose & entent that I resemble it for . And this shall euery man clerely se , that wyll aduise pyece by pyece .

And therfore whyle vpon dyfferences & dyuersytees that he putteth bytwen them , such as let them not to be lyke in the thyng that I lyken them for , he bosteth in conclusyon that I can not proue them lyke : I shall shewe you what thyng now this bost of his is lyke .

If it had come in this good mannes hed , to diuise a law and wryte a boke therfore , to kyll vp all the band dogges thorow out all the realm● ( wherin his tyme as vnwysely as it were bestow●d , had not yet ben so ill spent as it hath ben in this ) and than wold lay for the cause , the bandogges do spende vitayle , & wyll somtyme byte folke to : yf I wolde than wryte agayns●e his wyse boke , and say that he myght by that reason kyll vp hounde● and grayhoundes & all , for they must eate to , and wyll somtyme byte chyldren to / but lykewyse yet as they maye not yet for all that be forborne , bothe for the pleasure that they do , and also for that they helpe to take vs some suche bestes of venory as men eate , and hunte and kyll also suche other bestes and vermyn , as ellys wolde destroye mych vytayle / so the band-dogges may not be forborne neither , for they both defende husband mennes howses fro theues , & helpe folke home with theyr bestes to somtyme , such as wold not ellys come home : now myghte this good man by this reason that he vseth here , write agayne & defend his polytike deuice agaynst bandoggꝭ / & therin answer me thus . Fyrst that for defence of folkes houses there shal nede no bandogges at all / for men may make theyr seruauntes watche , or make fast all theyr dorys / and whan the●es wolde breke in , defende theyr howses them selfe . And as for suche bestes as wold not come home , yf they be not ouer heuy they may bere them home / and those that be to heuy to be borne home , taye ropes to there taylys and drawe theym home . And than myght he saye yet a lytell ferther / and that is this , that he merueiled mych that I could for shame and fere of myne own conscyence resemble & lyken together , gentle houndes or goodly greyhoundes , to such il fauored mast●ffes . And than to proue them very farre vnlyke put his dyfferencꝭ & his dyuersitees , and saye a mastyff● hath you wote well a great iolte hed , & a great mosel & a thycke boystuouse body / where as a greyhound hath a ꝓperhed , with a goodly smal long snowt , & fayre long slender sydꝭ / & the houndꝭ yet mych lesse lyke

And theruppon myght he there conclude ( as he nowe concludeth here ) and saye thus .

And thus it appereth that maister More can neyther proue the mastyfes to be lyke to the greyhoundes , nor to the tother gentle houndes neyther , and that for the causes before remembred . wherfore yt semeth that though all bandogges and mastiffes were clerely putte awaye : yet mennys houses sholde be defended well inough , and theyre bestes broughte home well ynough to , so they sholde so .

Now yf he ryally tryumphed vppon this , and thought he had auoyded me well : I could no far●her go therin in good fayth , but let him take that glorye to hym . And surely wyth any wyse man that readeth ouer here in this chapyter , both hys wordes and myne , and one after a nother consydereth wherfore I resemble theym together : shall fynde I dare boldely warraunt , that wyth his dyfferencꝭ and hys dyuersytees , he wynneth lyke worshyppe in thys .

But now to turne agayn as I ꝓmysed to the fyrste poynte , that ys to wyt his deuise of open accusers : consyder well this good chrysten reader , that where as this good man in his boke of diuysyon , where he wold haue the suit ex officio left of : he then reserued vs yet both open accusacyons and presentementes , to put heretyques to answere vpon . But nowe in this .xv. chapiter of his , in his boke of Salem & Bizance , for fauour towarde the catholyque fayth , he dyuyseth no more agaynst heretyques but open accusers alone / and sayeth that open accusers shall suffyciently serue the mater . And vnto that here that I say , and that euery man seeth , that no man wyll in heresy make hym self a ꝑtye by way of open accusyng : therto saith thys good man nothynge .

He seeth perdy very well , that in many thynges forboden by sondry statutes for the comen weale , as agaynste the great excesse of apparell and some such other thynges : the law dothe inuyte and hyre euery man to th accusynge of the brekers of the same by geuynge theym the tone halfe of the forfaytoure . And yet for all that as longe & as many lawes , & as sore as haue ben made agaynste suche excesse of apparayle , and as myche as some men myght haue wonne by the suyt : yet howe fewe folke haue ben founden that haue taken those accyons and therby accused those offenders , the kynges courtes can declare , and the lytle amendement may shew .

Ryottes be open thynges and enquyrable , with paynes also set vpon the concelours , yet many great ryottes go by vnfounde & the concelours neuer spoken of / & a statut was there fayn to be made , that it myght be pursued , & punished by the kingis counsayle without presentement , and that euen by suyte in maner ex officio to . For though the partyes that made the ryot , and the partye vppon whome yt was made , were so well agreed agayne , that neyther nother wolde by theyre wylles haue the mater moued or any more spoken of it : yet may the kyngis counsayle vpon secrete informacion , cause the kynges atturney to make a byll of the ryot , and put the partyes to answere , and sende for what wytnesses they wyll .

Nowe thys man wyll not be so madde I trowe to lay me for a defference , that in the suyte ex officio there is none accuser , and that here the kynges atturney is . For as I haue sayde byfore yf the spyrytuall courte sholde assygne in lyke wyse an offycer of theyre owne wythoute eyther parell or coste ; what wolde that auayle the partye ?

If this good man had therfore dyuised rewardes for accusers , & great paynes of forfaytours for them that wolde conceyle and hyde : yet wolde not all that haue holpen well the mater in heresyes . And weneth he then that his bare diuise of open accusers alone , neyther compelled nor hyr●d , wyll helpe yt ? Nay not and take endytementes and presentementes to them , wyth paynes set vppon the conceylours to .

And this hathe all chrys●endome good chrysten reders perceyued / and therfore in euery good chrysten countrey , do they vse the same suyt of offyce ( whyche vppon a lyghte reason this man calleth vnreasonable ) and haue vsed many longe yeres . Thys lawe also whych this good man thus impugneth vppon his owne vnreasonable reason , was thoughte a lawe ryght reasonable as I tolde you in a generall counsayle at Rome there holden by pope Innocent the thyrde and many great wyse & well lerned vertuous men there at . There were th embassyatours of all the realmes and countreys chrystened / & amonge tother th embassiatours of England . There were th embassiatours of both the emperours , that is to wyt Almayn & Grece . There were also the .iiii. gret pa●riarches / that is to wyt the patriarche of Antiochia , & the patriarche of Alexandria by theyr deputies / & the patriarche of Constantinople , & the patriarche of Hierusalem in theyr own proper persons . In this great ful & whole counsayle of crystendome , was this lawe agreed & approued . And from the fyrst makyng al cristen countreys receiued yt / & haue by the contynuall v●e euer syns alowed it . And this realm hath found it so necessary , that by statutes yt hath strengthed it . And al trew cristen countreis to this day styll obserue it / nor no countrey hath there any where left & forsaken it , except such places onely as haue lefte and forsaken the fayth of Chryst / wyth all whose ensamples I truste thys realme is to faythfull to folowe , vpon such good reason as this good man here bryngeth / wherof the very whole summe when it is gathered to gether , a mounteth to no more , but that yt may some tyme happen , that an innocent maye take harme therby / a reason that ones receiued , may suffre no law to stand . For what lawe can he geue so made in al this world , wherby none innocent can possibly take hurt ? But here you se playnely proued agaynst this good man , that by the chaungynge , there wolde surely folowe a nother maner of perell , the decay of the catholyque fayth by th encoragyng of heretikes / whiche wold be well content that we made lawes to burne theym twyse when they be proued heretykes , so that the good counsayle of this good man be folowed , that the suyte ex officio maye be chaunged into suche open accusers , as in seuen yere shall neuer one come forth , nor one heretyque of lykelyhed ones be put to answere / with a nother good counsayle of thys good mannys also dyuysed for theyr farther saufegard agaynst arrestyng of them , wherof we be to speke afterwarde in a nother chapyter . Say this good man what he wyll , yf we breke thys lawe so longe approued thorowe crystendome , and take hys deuyse in the stede : his worde wyll neu●r so stay the thynge , but that after his wayes ones taken , and by his newe euyll counsayle the good olde lawes broken , men sholde shortely se wythout any doute great encrease of heretykes / whych , where as they were wonte but to crepe to gether in corners , and secretely scoulke to gether in lurkes lauys , shall sone wax bolde and put oute theyr hornes and flocke and swarm to gether so thycke in th open s●retes , that such myschyefe wolde fynally folowe theron , as wo wyll euery good man be that sholde lyue to se yt . And yet wolde god of his goodnes turne at length the chief harme vppon theyre heddes . But better folke sholde fyrst fele so mych therof , that it were better for bothe , that by these good lawes well kepte whyche thys good man wolde breke , these heretyques be well repressed , and kepte vnder by tymes .

The .xvi. chapy●er .

HIs .xvi. chapyter begynn●th in the .liiii. leaf , wherin he fyrste recyteth agayne hys own wordes writen in his boke of diuisyon wherin he disputed agaynst the lawe in the chapyter Accusatus , perag . Licet , wherby yt is ordyned that though one beynge accused & sworne confesse nothyng , and yet afterward he confesseth bothe of hym selfe and other , such thynges as it may wel appere , that yf he were not forsworen in the secunde , he was forsworen in the fyrste , and yet that lawe there admytteth hym for a witnesse in the same court and in that mater of heresye , yf there appere manifeste tokens that he doth it not of lightnesse of mynde , nor of hatered , nor for other corrupcyon / whych he sayth is therfore a daungerouse law , and more lyke to cause vntrew and vnlawfull men to condemne innocentes , then to condempne offenders .

And you shall vnderstand good reders , that in his boke of diuisyon , he not onely dyd impugne the lawe that he speketh of here / but also a nother chapyter In fidei fauorem , bycause that therby suche as are accursed , & suche as are partyes to the same offence , shal be wytnesse in heresye .

This reason of his good reader , all be yt that me then thought and yet thynke so vnresonable , that I r●kened yt lytle worth the answeryng , as a reason reproued by the comen law & by the course & vsage of all realmes chrystened , and in other crymes bysyde heresye playnesy reproued , and the contrary wel vsed in this realm here also : yet in the .xli. chapiter of myn apo logi● fo. cc.xxviii in this maner wyse I answered hym .

This pyece concernynge the testymonye of knowen euyll persons to be receyued and taken in heresye / I haue somewhat touched in the thyrde chapyter of the thyrde boke of my dyaloge / where syth they maye reade yt that wyll , I wyll make here no longe tale agayne therof . But well he woteth that heresye , wherby a Chrysten man becometh a false traitour to god is in all lawes spyrytuall and temporall bothe , accompted as great a cryme as is the treason commytted agaynst any worldely man . And then why sholde we fynde so great a faute , that suche wytnesse sholde be receyued in a cause of heresye , as are receyued not onely in a cause of treason , but of murder also , and of other more syngle felonye / not onely in fauour of the prynce , and detestacyon of such odyouse crymes , but also for the necessyte whyche the nature of the mater wurketh in the profe . But syth euyl folke vse not to make good folke of counsayle in doynge of theyre euyll dedes / those that are done , shold passe vnpunyshed , and mo lyke be commytted a freshe , but yf they were receyued for recordes to theyre condempnynge , that were of theyre counsayle and perteners to the doynge . whyche kynde of folke wyll not lette to swere twyse nay , before they confesse ones ye / and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde , then theyre twyse naye vppon a solempne o the / and yet confesse they not so symplye , but that it is commenly holpen wyth some suche cyrcumstaunces as make the mater more clere .

Nowe as to those thyngꝭ that I wrote in my dialoge concernyng great crymynouse wytnesses to be taken in great criminall causes , he answereth wyth no worde at all . How be yt to say the trouth he the lesse neded . For he geueth ouer here , al that faute that he founde in the chapyter In fidei fauorem , as a thynge● wherin hym self seeth now that he was ouersene than and therfore he setteth that here passe by , as though he hadde neuer spoken therof , and stycketh onely vppon that one case of hym that is ones forsworen .

But now let vs se what he sayth here concernynge this selfe same case . Fyrst he saith that the lawes , though they must deuyse suche waysas euyll persons maye be punyshed : yet the makers of the lawes must ( as mych as in them is ) prouyde that innocentes shal be saued harmelesse . This is very trew as myche as in them is / the tother poynt beynge prouyded for to , that offendours maye be punyshed . But then say I that yt is not in all the wittes of the world , for punyshement of myscheuouse wreches , to dyuyse a sawe in suche wyse , that men maye be sure that none innocent can take harme therby . And then yf he graunt me this ( whyche whyther he graunt or no , yet very trew yt is ) then say I that his onely reason agaynst the suit ex officio , and agaynst this lawe to , that is to wytte that innocentes maye take harme therby , if such a reason that yf it were folowed in euery law wher by mysseguyded folke are punyssed , there shold no law stand for theyr punyshenēt at al , but lest it myght misse happe that some innocent myght take harme , we sholde lette all myscheuouse folke alone , & therby suffre many mo good innocent men take harme .

But then goeth this good man ferther & sayth that the punishement of an offender must be by a dew & a reasonable order . And that is very trew also / & therfore we shal agre well in that . But than goth he ferther and sayth , I can not se what dew or resonable order of tryal it is that he that vpon his oth hath fyrst clered hym self & h●s neyghbour of heresyes , sholbe after contrarye to his fyrste othe , be receyued agayne as a wytnesse , to condemne hym that he cler●d byfore , and that in the same courte , and in the same mater .

Though this good man can not se yt : other men can se yt / and haue sene it , & dayly do se it to wel ynough . I haue sene suche thynges as thys is my selfe proued , I can not tell howe often , that in the excuse of a thefe some haue taken an othe , that the felon was with hym in hys owne house at suche tyme as the felonye sholde be done in a nother place . And a man wolde haue wente he hadde ben credyble and sayd trouth . And yet afterwarde hathe hym selfe confessed that the feson and hym selfe also were at the robberye bothe twayne / and hys bare worde then more trewe , then byfore was hys solempne othe . And euery man that hathe medeled myche wyth suche examynacyons , hath a sure experyence , that this ys a commen fashyon of murderers and theuys and such as are theuys receyuours / of whome at the fyrste face some seme honest men , & are so some tyme reputed , and come forth for declaracyon of them that are suspected and in trouble , and depose for them / and yet after vppon some other occasyon in examynynge of the mater , begynne to be suspected theym selfe , and afterwarde confesse yt to , bothe of them selfe and theym whom they came to clere by theyr periury before . And I am very sure there be not a fewe that haue herd suche euydence , geuen in causes of felony dyuerse tymes to the iurye .

But hereuppon bycause I spake in myne apologye of suche witnesses in felonye : thys good man maketh here ad●ute / what maner wytnesses I mene / whyther I mene the .xii. men that are the iury , or other wytnessys that are brought into the court for to enforme them . And than fyrst if I mene the .xii. men , than he answereth me certayn thynges , to shew that he can skyll of the law . But veryly as for me , I shal put hym out of that dowt , that I ment not them . For I neuer toke the .xii. men for wytnessys in my lyfe . For why shold I call them witnesses , whose verdycte the iudge taketh for a sure sentence concernynge the facte , without any examynacyon of the cyrcumstaunces , wherby they know or be ledde to byleue theyr verdicte to be trew ?

And also wherfore shold I mene to call them wytnesses , whome I se desyre wytnesses at the barre to enforme them in the mater , as wytnessys enforme a iudge ? He myghte therfore haue spared hys labour in the pyece well inough . For I neyther ment tht iurye , nor neuer toke theym for wytnesse .

If he wyll aske me what they be than : I saye they be the iury . And yf he wyll wyt ferthermore what person they represent of those that are v̄suall in other courtes wherin there be no iuryes vsed : than can I metely wel tell hym to yf the tale were as necessary as it wolde be longe .

But than cometh he to the tother parte and sayth , And yf mayster More by that terme , witnesse , mene suche wytnesse , as be somtyme brought into the kynges courtes , to geue euydencys to an ●nque●t , than to that wytnesse no suche wytnesse , as the wytnesse bene in the spyrytuall courte , that shall acquy●e or condempne the partyes : for of those wytnesse so brought into the kynges court to geue euydence to an ●nqueste at the comon lawe , no mencyon shall be made in the recordes , ne the iury be not bound alway to folow tho wytnesse . For yf the iury of theyr owne knowlege or otherwyse know the trouth agayns●e the sayenge of suche wytnesse , they be bou●den to fynde accordynge to the trouth , and let tho wytnes go . And yet yf it ha●ned , that such collaterall wytnes fyrst testyfyed vpon theyr othe , that the partye were not gylty : and after it were informed the iudges , that they reuoked theyr fyrst sayeng , and wold saye that the partye were gylty : I can not thynke , that the iudges wolde any more calle them to here theyr sayenge therin . And though they wolde , yet as I sayd before , it were farre vnlyke to thys case . For theyr sayenge there , is but as an euydence , whiche the iury sholde not be bounde to byleue , but as the truth is . I can not se therfore , how mayster More can proue his sayenge , that suche wytnesses , that is to say , suche as be periured in ●he same court , shulde be afterward receyued as wytnes in any of the kynges courtes .

Now good readers euer more remember this , that it is not inough for hym that wyl auoyde a resemblaunce bytwen two thynges , it is not inough I saye for hym to proue that in some poyntes those two thynges are vnlyke / ( for so muste euery two thynges nedes be , for ellys were they not two but one ) but he muste proue that they be vnlyke in the self same point wherin , and to the self same purpose wherfore , they were so resembled to gether .

And now I say that in that poynt for that purpose for whyche I resemble them , I say that they be lyke . I dyd not say that they were lyke in the maner of the examynacyon , and puttynge of theyr names and theyr deposycyons in the recorde , in whych thynges this man sayth & I confesse that they be vnlyke / but I sayde that they were lyke in this point , that lyke as he that hath bene sworne and clered one as farre forth as in hym was of heresy , may yet be receyued swo●en agayn & herd , and by his new contrary deposycyon may hurt the same party whom he dyd clere , before the same spyrytuall iudge , whyche lawfully may geue credence vnto hym vppon certayne cyrcumstaunces by his wysedome well wayed / so maye in lyke wyse he that hath ben sworn , and by his othe cl●red a man as myche as in hym was of felony , be yet receyued and sworne agayne and herd , and by hys new contrary deposycyon maye hurte the same partye whom he dyd before clere in a temporall court , before the selfe same iudges / by the reason that the iury maye lawfully byleue hym in the seconde othe , vppon certayne consyderacyons by theyr wysedoms wysely wayed , notwithstandyng his formar othe in the same court to the contrary .

And all be it that here before I thought vppon no ferther than vpon such wytnesses taken before the kynges counsayle , or iustyces of the peace men of wurshyppe in the cuntrey , & afterwarde those deposycyous with such contrary ohtes and all the cyrcumstaunces therwith geuen in euydence to the iury at the barre , in the face of the kynges ordinary court , syttynge vppon the deliueraunce of the prysoner : yet syth this good man dissymuleth that poynt , and draweth me forth before the iudges , I am well content to wayte vpon hym thyther . And I nothynge dowt but that euyn there he shold , the case myght so fal , fynde it trewe that I tell hym .

That is not so sayth this good man . For yf it happened that such collaterall wytnesses , fyrste testyfyed vpon theyr othe that the party were not gilty / and after it were enformed the iudges that they reuoked theyr fyrst sayenge , and wolde say that the party were gylty : I can not thynke that the iudges wolde any more call them to here theyr sayenge therin .

Here you se good reders that he proueth thys poynt by none other thynge , than onely by his owne thynkyng . Now albe it that against his thinkynge that they wolde not , it were inough for me to saye that I thynke they wolde : yet wyll I not leue it so bare , but I wyll shew some cause wherfore in some case they sholde / & I wyll also put you some such case , whiche if the case happed I nothyng dowt but they wolde .

Fyrst the cause wherfore a person ones periured is repelled from beryng wytnesse agayn , is bycause the lawe presumeth that he setteth not so mych by an othe , but that his oth notwithstandyng he were likely inough to lye .

Now syth this presumpcyon is the generall let , and therfore the reason of the generall law : yf the case happen that this presumpcyon be more than countrepaysed with a con●r●ry presumpcyon vpon the tother s●de , there is that contrary presumpcyon a reason sufficyent , to make in that case a contrary law , or a law that shal be for that case an excepcyon out of that generall rule .

Now syr as he that on his oth cl●reth hym self & his felow to , eyther in heresye or in felonye , doth after confesse & swere also the contrary : yf we wold not byleue him in the secund oth , bicause we fynde hym therby periured in the fyrst / than in that we iudge hym in the fyrst to haue sworen false , it implieth that euyn therby we iudge hym in the secunde to say trewe .

If he wyll refuse his secund oth , and not thynke hym worthy to be byleued , bycause that he sware the contrary byfore , & therby presume hym a false shrewe whan he sholde by the secunde othe proue hym selfe ones periured , and than we could not tell in whyther othe of the twayne : here I say the fyrste presumpcion is ouer borne wyth the secunde . For it is an other presumpcyon that no man wyl caste awaye his soule for nought . And yet a greater presumpsyon that no man wyll cast awaye his soule , to do hurt eyther to his owne body or to his frendes .

Now loke me than vp this mannes two othes , his fyrst othe and his secund. And though there be a comon presumpcyon therin also , wherupon the credence of all othes resteth , that is to wyt that a man reputed good & honest , wyl not for his frendes body nor for his owne neyther , caste hys soule awaye by periury : yet whan hym selfe after sheweth vppon hys seconde othe , that he was periured in the fyrste , the presumpcyon of hys trouth in his fyrst oth , is taken away by the secunde .

Now the secund if it be to th accusynge of hym selfe & his frende both , whome his fyrste othe excused , hath these other two presumpcyons for to bere agaynst the fyrst presumpcyon generall of his vntrouth for his periury . The tone , that though it be presumed in the law , that he wolde be false and forsworen for somwhat : yet is it presumed that he wyll not be forsworen for ryght nought . And yet as I sayed it is more strongely presumed that he wyll not be forsworen to the hurt of hym selfe and hys frend . And therfore hath hys secunde othe inough to bere it agaynste the fyrste , syth in the fyrste he sware for his frendes aduauntage and his owne , for whiche ( syth he nowe appereth false in the tone othe or the tother ) he was than lykely to be forsworen . And in the secunde yf he were forsworen , it were to theyr both harme . And therfore is that othe presumed to be trewe , though the man hym self be presumed false .

This is I trowe to no man any dowt , but● that though a man had ben openly periured thryes : yet yf the worlde myght ( as it may not ) be sure that in another mater he wold for all that swere trewe , the worlde wolde receyue his othe . Now for as myche as of no mannys o th any man can be so sure , but that he maye be by possybylyte deceyued : the law goth as far forth as it can , and taketh theyr othes for a profe , whych are in that case by presumpcyon lykely to swere trewe . And syth that he therfore whom the respecte of his frendes saufgarde & hys owne , gaue occasyon to be forsworen in the fyrst , in the secund swereth contrary wyse to theyr bothe parell & harme : therfore in the case reason bereth the law , that in such heyghnous crimes his secund oth shold be receyued .

Here haue I shewed you a reason whych semeth me sufficient , that bothe in heresye and felony , the iudges sholde be content not withstandyng the fyrste othe , in some case to suffer hym swere the contrary .

But now for the temporal courtes , let vs put some case for a sample , to se whyther the iudges wolde yf the case happed so , here the witnes again or not

I wyl not put the case in treason , wherin th●re wolde I wene be no dowte / but that yf after his euydence gyuen vppon his othe in clerynge there the prysoner , he happed euyn sodaynly there at the barre to repent hym selfe , & say that he was hyred to be forsworen , & that he was forsworen in dede , & than wolde tell another tale far contrary to the fyrst , ere euer he went fro the barre : wold his tale not be herd trow you ? yes and ( the iury so desyrynge as peraduenture they wold the iudges wolde swere hym to I suppose / and very good reason wolde bere it that they sholde .

But as I say let treason go , and come but euyn vnto felonye . If two or thre wytnessys wold at the barre excuse vppon theyr othes some one man of felony / and afterward whan they were stepped fro the barre happed to be herde rowne and reioyce to gether , that they had geuyn good euidence for acquytayle of theyr felow , with whom them selfe had ben at the same robbery : if they were sodaynly brought agayn to the iudges , the iury not yet departed fro the barre / and beynge seuerally questyoned in that sodayne abashement , seynge that god had so vttred theyr falshed , bygan to haue remorce and came forth wyth the trouth , and agreed in the cyrcumstaunces and told all one tale , confessynge both the prysoner & them selfe gylty , and wold be content to swere that this tale were trew con●rary to the othe that they sware there byfore : wolde not the iudges trowe you geue them the herynge ? yes yes I dowte not , and the iury to .

And thus you se clerely good readers , that in this poynt if this man had wysely wrought , he sholde haue geuen it ouer .

And now albe it that here I myght ende this chapyter , and haue no nede at all to go any ferther : yet to the ferther openyng , how lytell holde there is in the causes that he layeth of dyssymilitude & vnlykenes , bytwene the wytnessys brought into a spirituall court , & the wytnesses brought in to the temporal for informacyon of the iury / I meruayle mych yf hym self know not that lyke as the iury may yf they se cause why , way the wytnesses at lyght , and quyte the prysoner for all the wytnesses wordes , so may the ordynary do to . For in his estymacyon the power lyeth , to way and consider the qualytees of the wytnesses / and all suche other cyrcumstaunces as may mynysshe or encreace theyr credence .

Ye and vnto the tother syde , the wytnessys are not in the temporall courtes wayed and estemed so lyght , but that the iury shall yf they byleue them not , be somtyme dreuyn to yeld a good rekenynge why . For though the wordes of the wytnestes be not entred in the recorde , yet in attaynt they shall agayne be geuen in euydence agaynst the petyt iury , and testyfye by the court and by the othes of them that before herde them depose .

And thanne yf it appere vnto the graund iury in theyr conscyence , that the petyt iury wylfully of some corrupte mynde regarded not the wytnessys , and therfore in the geuyng of theyr verdycte passed agaynste theyr owne conscyence : euery man well woteth that they shal be attaynted .

And necessyte hath also dreuen the kingis grace & his counsayle for the sure punyshment of felons , to prouide that yf the iury lykewyse regard the wytnessys so sleyghtly , that the iudges thynke they quyte the felon agaynste theyr own conscyence : they bynde them sometyme to appere before the kyngis counsayle . And there haue there dyuerse iuryes bene proued so to haue myssevsed them self therin , that they haue ben punysshed therfore .

Now wyll I good readers come vnto that piece , which ( as a thyng all redy confuted & of it self vnworthy to be touched ) I wold haue passed ouer & not ones vowchsafed to write one word therin , sauyng that I se him to haue taken such labour therabout , that he semeth to wene that he hath defended it well / whiche whither he haue well defended or not , your selfe shal good readers iudge .

These were his wordes in his boke of diuision .

Thys is a daungerous law , and more lyke to caus● vntrew and vnlawful men to condempne innocente● then to condempne offenders . And it helpeth lytell , that yf there be tokens , that it is not done of hatered nor for corrupcyon of money : that it shold be taken : for somtyme a wolfe may shew hym selfe in the apparell of a lambe . And yf the iudge be par●yall , such tokens maye be sone● accepted then trewly shewed .

To thys pyece these were my wordes in myne apology folio . 229.

Syth euyll folke vse not to make good folke of theyr counsayle in doynge of theyr euyll dedes / those that are done , sholde passe vnpunyshed , & mo lyke be commytted a fresshe , but yf they were receyued for recordes to theyr condempnynge , that were of theyr counsayle and parteners to the doynge . why●he kynde of folke wyll not lette to swere twyse naye before they confesse ones ye / and yet theyr one ye more trewe vppon theyr bare worde , than theyr twyse naye vppon a solempne o th / and yet confesse they not so symply , but that it is comenly holpen with some suche cyrcumstaunces as make the mater more clere .

Nowe se you well that as hym selfe sheweth , the lawe prouydeth well agaynste all lyght receyuynge of such confessyon . And yet thys pacyfyer sayth that all that helpeth lytle , bycause the iudge may be parcyall , and the wytnesse maye be a wolfe , shewynge hym selfe apparelled in the apparell of a lambe , whych apperynge in apparell , pore men that can not apparel theyr speche with apparell of retoryke , vse comenly to cal a woulfe in a lambes skynne .

But what order may serue agaynst suche obieccyons ? what place is there in this world spyrituall or temporal , of whyche the iudge maye not haue some saye that he is , or at the lest wise ( as he sayth here ) maye be parcyall ? And therfore not onely such wytnesse shold be by this reason of his reiected in heresye , treason , murder , or felony / but also by his other reson of a woulf in a lambes skynne , all maner of wytnes in euery mater . For i euery mater may it happen , that he that semeth a lambe , may be in dede a wolf / and be nought where he semeth good / & swere false where he semeth to say trew . And therfore this patche of this pacifyer concernynge witnesse / euery wyse man may bere wytnesse that there is lytle witte therin / and lesse good wolde growe therof , yf folke wolde folowe his inuencyon , and make of the lawes a chaunge .

Now that you haue good reders h●rd what we saye bothe before . Now shall you se how substancially this man defendeth his fyrst wordes agayne . These are so in this xvi . chapyter of hys newe boke hys wordes .

Nowe by reason of this obieccyon I wyll speke somwhat father in thys mater , then I dyd in the sayde treatyse . And fyrste I wyll saye thus , that yf ys to me a great meruayle , to se mayster More so faire ouerseen , or el●ys yf he be not o●●rseen therin , that then he wolde yf he coulde , deceyue other and make theym so farre ouerseen , to byleue that yt shulde be one lyke reason of a periured wytnesse , that wyll loke lyke a lambe , and saye contrarye to that he hathe deposed before , and of a wytnesse that cometh to depose in a matter that he was neuer yet sworne vppon . For when a wytnesse ys broughte in , that was neuer sworen vppon the mater byfore / the iudge maye not by the lawe refuse hym , nor iudge any defaulte in hym / oneles he knowe a suffycyent cause hym selfe in that behalfe / or that the partyes do alledge yt : but he muste byleue / that he ys honeste , good and indyff●rent / tyll the contrarye be shewed / as euery man ys in charytye bounde to do of hys neyghbour . But when a wytnesse hathe deposed in the courte / and then wyll offre hym sel●e to depo●e to the contrarye that he sayde byfore : the iudge maye wyth good conscyence mystruste and thynke , that he doth yt of lyghtnes of mynde , hatered , or for cor●upcyon of money .

If I were in thys poynte ouersene , I nede not greately to be ashamed of the ouersyghte . For then hathe there bene many suche other men ouersene also , as I wolde not wyshe to be wyser . And I no more entende to deceyue other men in thys mater , thanne many other haue entended , that vsed and allowed thys thynge that I defende now byfore / such men as wyth the condycyon that I were neuer worse , I wolde neuer wyshe to be better . This man maketh as though it were great shame for me , to liken to gether a person ones periured , and a person that was neuer yet ones sworen . I wolde in dede be a shamed to lyken theym to gether in euery poynte , all though there were no more dyfference betwene theym , but that the tone had a longe nose and the tother a shorte . But I am not mych ashamed to say that for some purpose , where he speketh of the tone I maye speke of the tother , and lyken them well ynough to gether . For I may say ( as I said ) that lyke wise as he that hath for sworen hym selfe , may fayne hym selfe to saye trew , and loke lyke a lambe , and yet be a woulfe in dede : euyn so I saye maye he that neuer was sworen byfore .

Ye sayth thys man , but yet these two be not lyke . For he that was neuer sworen , there is no cause to mystruste nor presume that he wyl play the woulfe in a lambes skynne . But he that hath bene forsworen , is of reason to be mystrusted / and yt is to be presumed , that he wyll play the woulfe in a lambes skynne .

Marke yet in the meane whyle , that yf I could make no father answere : yet hadde I wonne and he loste . For his fyrst wordis were in his boke of dyuysyon , that he that confesseth hym selfe forsworen , shold in no case be receyued to swere agayne the contrarye / bycause that though there seme a good cause to byleue hym in his seconde othe , yet yt maye be that he dothe but fayne / and I sayde so may he to fayne and dyssemble , that neuer was sworen byfore . And then yf the onely power and habylyte to fayne , were a cause suffycient to put any oue man from berynge witnesse vppon his othe : euery man were by reason repelled / for euery man ys able to fayn . This was as you se the thynge that I then sayde . Whyche thynge neyther this mannor any man elles is able to confute , nor proue the forsworen man and the man vnsworen vnlyke in the poynte that I lykened them / that is to wit in powre and abylyte to fayne . And farther then that , went not I. For I had no farther cause in answerynge hym there , whyle he wente no farther there , nor sayde none other , but that he that was forsworen may fayne . And nowe reade your selfe his wordes , and loke whyther I say trewe .

But nowe thys beynge proued as yt is proued playne , that he hathe a fall in those wordes whyche he spake byfore : let vs a lytle se whyther wyth thys leysour after hys mater agayne consydered a freshe , he haue caughte any better holde now . And surely me thynketh not one whyt .

For where hys newe reason reste●h in thys , that he whyche confesseth hym selfe ones forsworen , is by reason mystrusted , as one not onely to be able to swere false , and wylyly cloke hys falshed vnder a colour of trouthe , but also presumed that he so wyll do in dede : to thys I saye that he sayeth trouthe , as longe as there is no greater presumpcyon on the tother syde to serue for hys seconde othe . But when the case happeth that there is , as yt happeth in the case of this lawe : than ys the presumpcyon that he wyll swere false gone , as I shewed you byfore .

And then that presumpcion by a greater presumpcion beyng purged : this man forworne and the man vnsworn are in the thynge that I resembled them for , waxen well lyke agayne . And that the sayde presumpcyon ys purged : I shewed you byfore , in that it is now a greater presumpcyon for his seconde othe , that he wyll not fo●swere hym selfe , to the parell of his frende and hym selfe to .

Then goeth he farther , and enforceth his reason with the reason of the lawe before the peragraph Licet was made . And therin thus he sayth .

In so mych that byfore that parag . Licet was made the iuge myght none otherwise haue done of iu●●yce , but to haue refused to haue taken any farther examynacyon of hym . And yf he hadde , and the other had sayde contrarye to that he hadde sayde byfore : hy● saynge hadde ben voyde in the lawe .

And thys thynge wherwyth he thynketh his reason made the s●renger , maketh his reason a great deale febler . For whyle the generall rule of refusynge suche wytnesse in all cases , was made so longe byfore : it appereth playnely that necessyte found the faute , and caused oute of the generall rule this case to be made an excepcyon / and so the lawe made by better delyberacyon .

And in such other horible crymes , the same lawe is vsed in temporall courtis , and was also before that law made by the chyrche .

But agaynste all thys yet , thys man maketh me this reason .

what the makers of the sayde peragragh ment , to put into the dyscrecyon of the iudge , that yf he saw by euydent tokens that yt is not done of lyghtnesse of mynde , nor of hatered , nor for corrupcyon of money , that hys sayenge shall stande as well agaynste hym selfe as agaynste other : I can not tell . For I can not se how there can be any euydent token in any suche case , but that there myght be in suche a periu●ed wytnesse sometyme inwarde hatered or corrupcyon that the iudge can not knowe , so that he can not iudge of certayntye that there ye none .

Consyder now good readers that all the strength of this reason hangeth in this , that the iuge can not surely se somtyme , whether the periured wytnesse do it for the trouth , or haue an hatered in his breste so secret that the iudge can not se yt , & therfore he can not certaynly iuge that he hath none . Consyder here now that he sayth not that yt is presumed , or must be presumed , that the periured wytnesse hath so / ( for yf he so sayde , he sholde saye to no purpose . For as I haue shewed you how that presumpcyou maye be ouer wayed wyth greater presumpcyons to the contrary ) but he sayeth that it may be in dede , that the forsworen wytnesse hath so . And then saye I yet agayne , yf we go to the possybylyte of the dede , and not vnto the presumpcyon and lykelyked / he that was neuer sworen byfore , may haue a secrete hatered whyche the iuge can not se , as well as he maye that was twyse sworen byfore . And theron I saye also yet agayne , that yf the iuge were charged to geue no sentence but suche as he knew of certaynetye sure to be trewe : he coulde neuer vppon any wytnesses in this worlde geue any sentence at all . For no wytnesse were there but he myght swere false & the iuge myght wene he sware trew .

Now yf this man wold saye that he meaneth no farther certayntie , then onely a sure thynkynge in the iudges owne conscyence , and that therfore he modered all his other wordis ( with this worde conscyence , sayenge that the iuge could not with conscyence iuge of certaintie that there were no hatered : this meanyng were a very marryng of al that he goeth about there to proue . For though the periued witnesse might haue ( and happely hadde in dede a secrete hatered in his own breste , as an other witnes myght haue ( & happely had in dede ) that neuer was swore byfore : yet myght the iuge beyng i●duced by certayn tokens & lykelyhedes haue a sure & a certayn ꝑsuasyon & bylyefe in his own conscyence , that neyther the tone nor the tother had any hatered at the time , but onely deposed the trouth . And therfore if he wold say that he ment thus : he marred all his mater .

But it appereth playn that he ment in the tother maner vpon which there must nedes folowe ( yf he were not in his sayeng deceyued ) that euery iudge in euery sentence that he shold geue vpon any witnesses , were they neuer so honest in apparence , were in a daunger ineuy table . And that he mea●eth in that maner , that the bylyefe of his owne conscyence iuduced reasonablye thereto , coulde not excuse the iudge yf he were deceyued and the thynge other wyse in dede : he declareth farther by the wordes that next ensewe , where he goeth farther thus .

And therfore me semeth that the makers of the said peragraph layd ouer great a daunger to the iudges , that they sholde haue lybertie to accept yf they wold the sayeng of hym that so offreth hym selfe agaynst hys fyrste othe / for so myche as the iudge can not be sure to saue hys conscyence therin , but yf he clerely refuse to accepte any thynge that the wytnesse wold saye contrarye to hys fyrst othe . For yf the iudge dyd otherwyse , & therupon the witnesses testyfy agaynst the partye , & yet the partie not gylty in dede : I suppose verily that the iuge were party to the same offens .

And I suppose not the contrarie , but am very sure of the contrarye . For I am very sure , that where the iuge seeth suche tokens as seme vnto him manyfeste and open tokens , to proue that his seconde othe is not offr●d of any corrupt effeccion , but of remor●e of his periurye and of a mynde to amende his faute and saye trewe : he falleth in no daungeour of conscience , though the trouthe be otherwyse in dede . For yf there neuer hadde lawe bene made at all to refuse any wytnesse bycause he was ones periured : the iuge had ben clere at libertie vpon resons & lekelyhedes ledyng his conscience , to haue receyued him again with out any ꝑell of his own conscience at al , where so euer hym self had thought greater lykelyhed that he wolde saye trouth at the second othe , then he dyd before at the fyrste . And then syth he was now letted to receyue hym , and his lybertye therin restrayned but by a lawe made : what parell can he more fall in when a seconde lawe hathe set hym at large , then yf the formare lawe hadde neuer made the restraynte .

Also where the lawe there prouydeth , that the iudge shall styll reiecte that witnesse , which offreth to tel the trouth vpon a second oth contrary to his fyrste , but if there appere manyfest tokens that he do it not of any corrupt effeccion : it meaneth none other but that yf the tokens seme suche vnto the iudge , that they induce hym in his conscyence so to byleue & thynke and not that he shal be certayne & sure that the thynge is so in dede , by lokyng into the secrete corners of the mannes harte / no more then the kynges iuges at the comen lawe , by what wordes so euer they geue th enqueste an oth , nor by what precyse wordes so euer they receyue theyre verdycte , meane not to charge theym vppon parell of theyre soules to say none other wyse thenne the trouthe of the thynge shal be in dede / but as the trouthe shall seme to theym to be , vppon suche thynges as they shall perceyue eyther by the euydence geuyn theym at the barre , or otherwyse ere they came there . Nor the iudges theym selfe in the iudgynge of a matter of lawe , neuer meane precisely that the lawe is so . For then yf other iudges after reuersed that iudgement or iudged the same case otherwyse in a nother tyme bytwene other men , the tone iudges or the tother hadde putte theyr soules in parell , doynge bothe twayne theyre best to iudge as well as they coulde .

But syth no man can se farther then his eyen wyll serue hym , no nor no man can se farther than his own reason can vppon the mater thorowly debated perceyue : yf eyther the .xii. men or the iuges , neyther neglygent nor corrupt , iuge as they thinke trew , theyr soules are saufe ynough / as saufe as is the soule of the carpenter , that putteth in hys frame no tymber but such as is good & sounde as farre as men can se / and yet some of yt secretely may be suche in very dede , as soon after shall fayle and fall downe all the rofe . His soule is saufe ynough , though his purse may happe to swete , yf he bounde hym selfe to prouyde the tymber at hys owne parell . But so byndeth hym selfe neyther iudge nor iurye for the wytnesse on parell of theyre owne soules , that the tother shall swere trewe .

And thus you se good reders that the iudge is oute of parell , vsynge dylygence and trouth , though the witnesse be false and haue hatered in his harte / where the iudge weneth none vpon tokens that he thynketh manifeste , al though the witnesse were forsworen before . And thus is this good man in this mater all gone quyte awry .

But yet beynge sore troubled wyth the wylde woulfe , that maye swere false and seme trew , nothyng mystrusted bycase he cometh lapped in a lambes skynne : thys good man goeth ferther yet and therin thus he sayth .

And where I sayde in the sayd treatyse , as before appereth , that somtyme a wolfe may shew hym self in the apparell of a lambe , and that yf the iudge be parcyall , suche tokens maye soner be accepted then truely shewed : If is euydent inough , that by those wordes I note no iudge to be parcyal , but I say that yf the iudge be parcyall , suche tokens may be ●o●ner accepted then truely shewed . As who sayth , the iudge may accepte such a token to be true , though there appe●e some suspycyon of vntruth in the wytnes . In whyche acceptaunce he shal more lyberally and wythout offence of the lawe do wronge to the party that is accused / then he could do by acceptyng of any other wytnesse agayns●e the law , that were neuer sworne before . For yf he accepte any suche wytnes contrary to the rules of the lawe , it appereth to all theym that knowe the lawe , that he doth agaynst the law therin : and that wyll sounde somwhat to hys rebuke , and that wyll make hym the more loth to do it . But yf the iudge accepte suche a periured wytnesse where there is no suffycyent token to proue that he doth it not for lyghtnesse of mynde , hatered , corrupcyon , nor such other : yet he breketh no lawe therin . For all is commytted to his dyscrecyon . And that may hapely gyue a boldnes to some iudge to accepte suche a periured wytnes where he ought not to accepte hym . And though the ●ayde Peragr . say that yf there be suche tokens as before appereth , that then in fauour of the fayth hys wytnes shall be taken : yet I can not se , yf the party accused be gyltlesse in dede , as he maye be for all that wytnesse , how it can be taken in fauour of the fayth , to accepte the wytnesse . For it can not be sayd in fauour of the fayth to condempne an innocent .

All thys tale whan it is all tolde , wayeth vnto no more , but that yf the iudge be parcyall , than he may abuse the lawe , and than that lawe in that case may do harme in heresy .

Now besyde that the quest herynge the same wytnesse sworne fyrste , and after contrarye , maye yf they be parcyall , do lyke harme in felonye : what lawe was there euer made , wherein the iudge coulde do none harme yf he wold be parcyall ? what lawes maye there serue , yf the mynystres wolde be false ? Thys man is content that to a mannes condempnacyon , the presumpcyon shall serue that the wytnesses wyll swere but trewe , suche wytnesses at the leste wyse as are not proued false before / and yet maye they marre all yf they be false a●d parcyall . And whan he presumeth suche indyfferencye in a wytnesse : why fereth he so sore parcyalyte in a iudge ? yf he saye he mystruste the iudges , bycause of some Some sayes : ●hanne muste he mystruste wytnesses , iuryes , and iudges , and all togyther . For suche Some sayes there lacke not that can say well by no man .

Thys reason of hys dothe but putte a suspycyon in mennys heddes agaynste the iudges , for euery thynge that is putte in theyr dyscrecyon . But surely ( ●s I haue often harde that greate wyse and ryghte wursshypefull manne syre Iohn Fineu● say , late chyefe iustyce of the kynges benche ) who so taketh from a iustyce the order of hys dyscrecyon , taketh surely frome hym more thanne halfe hys offyce . If thys realme sholde mystruste iustyces : it must in the lawes than make many suche chaunges , as I neuer sawe nede yet , nor truste I neuer shall . What harme myghte any iustyce of the peace do , yf he were dysposed to be false and parcyall ? And euer shall be able to do make what lawes men wyll , but yf men wolde vtterly put a waye that offyce And than in stede of one harme that maye happe , we shall haue an hundred happe in very dede .

Consyder also good readers , that by the lawes afore made , there was not onely forboden to bere wytnesse , he that appered to be ones forsworen , but also many other maner of cryminouse persons , for the generall presumpcyon that they were vnworthy credence / and yet haue bene by other lawes after made , receyued to bere wytnesse agaynst them selfe & theyr felowes in heresye & in ●reason both , for the necessyte as I haue sayd and vppon presumpcions more probable that they were in that case wel likely to swere trewe .

Now yf this good man for fere of suche harme as maye by possybylyte fall vppon an innocent , wyl put one of these frome witnessynge : he must repell them all . For as the latter lawes haue synnys receyued all : so the formar lawes generally dyd fyrste refuse them all . For the generall rule is naturally before hys partycular excepcyons .

And than yf he wold in lykewyse repell them all , than for one harme that may happe , and happely neuer shall : he sholde haue many myschyeuouse people very bold , whyle they myght be sure they muste nedes passe vnpunyshed , bycause theyr priuy myschief coulde neuer well be proued , but yf they wold whan they went about it , take honest men wyth theym to bere recorde of it .

And thus you se good readers very clere and playne , that this good man hath hytherto brought you forth no reason . And I thynke he saw that hym selfe / and therfore he though he wolde saye beter at last , and not leue it so . For thanne goeth he ferther and sayeth .

And ferthermore it appereth also , that the wordes of the sayd treatyse e●tende no fe●ther , but to suche as be iudges , where there is before them suche a periured wytnes , and not to al iudges . And in lykewyse those wordes , that a w●●●e maye shew hym se●●e in the apparel● of a lambe , sitetche onely to suche a periured wytnes . For there is no other wytnesse spoken of in the sayd treatyse in that place .

Thys man goeth to his wordes and forg●tteth what I saye / whyche is that though his wordes go no ferther , yet the reason of his wordes ( yf it were reason as I haue proued it none ) wolde stretche so farre farther that it wold marre all . And this point haue I proued you very clere and playne .

And therby is ment , that suche a periured wytnesse maye haply shewe hym selfe to denye that he sayde before , of a compuncte harte and of a new knowlege of the treuth , and of a very zele vnto the ●ayth : and yet do it in dede of couetyse , falshod , rancoure , and malyce to the party . And so as the gospell sayth , he may happe outwarde to appere in the apparell of a shepe , and within forth be a raumpynge wolfe . And suche one maye that periured wytnesse be , that i● spoken of in the sayde treatyse . And of suche a wytnes in heresye the sayd treatyse speketh onely there and of none other witnesse , as to the readers wyll appere . And therfore as me semeth , mayster More fyndeth defaute in thys behalfe , where he hadde no cause reasonable so to do .

Now good reders where as this man sayeth , that he ment that suche a forsworen wytnesse maye happely play the woulfe in a lambes skynne : I graunt that he ment so . But as I graunte that to hym : so muste he graunt thys agayne to me , that so maye he playe to , that was neuer sworen before . And than whyle he goeth no ferther , but that the tone happely may , and can not hym selfe saye naye but that the tother happely maye so to : there foloweth vppon that the thyng that I sayd before , whyche this man sayth he merueyleth mych that I wold say , that ys to wytte , that by that wyse reason there sholde be receyued in suche crimynall causes , no maner wytnesse at all .

Now yf he leue his may happely and say that it is lykely , that the forsworen witnesses wyll say false , and the tother trew that neuer was swo / ren before / and that the witnesse ones forsworen afore , is in his secund othe contrary to his fyrste , more lykly to playe the wyly woulfe in the lambes skynne , than suche a playne symple man as was neuer sworen before : I wyll be so bolde for thys ones as in some case to tell hym boldely nay . For where he sayd a lytell afore , that he coulde not se how there coulde be any suche euydent token in any suche case , but that such a periured wytnes myghte do it of a secrete hatered , and seme charytable , and so play the wyly woulfe in the simple lambes skynne : I can se well inough , that in some case there may be an euydent token , that some suche wytnesse as was so fyrst forsworen , were after in his secunde othe swerynge the contrary , lesse lykely to lye & play the wyly woulfe in the lambes skynne , than were an other that neuer was in hys lyfe before neyther forsworen nor sworen .

For yf he that was before vppon his o●h examyned both of hym selfe & his sone , or of hym self & his father , or his other specyall knowen frende , & on his othe clered them all , do at an other tyme vppon a new oth confesse them all gyltye , and hym selfe also / and where peraduenture hym selfe must to the fyre , bycause he was abiured before , & they maye turne yet in tyme & be but abiured : were not thys an euident token that he doth it not of any secrete hatered , nor playeth not the wyly woulf in a lambes skynne ? For iwys to confesse hym selfe gylty in such case , and puttyng hym self in worse case than hys felowes , were but a pore poynt of a wyly woulfe And as I putte thys case for ensample : so may there be many other . For the tokens myght be playne inough though they were lesse playne thanne thus . And therfore to conclude in this mater , this man hath no reason in this worlde to defende hys fyrste booke wythall .

And therfore where he spendeth a patche in the ende , about his declaracyon , that it may be lawfull for hym to fynde defaute at lawes made by the chyrche , so that he fynde them vppon a suffycyent reason , bycause all that poynt nothyng helpeth hym here in this law , agaynst whych he sheweth no reason reasonable , but a reason as vnreasonable as euer reasonable man herde : I shall I saye therfore let that piece passe by , and here make an ende of hys .xvi. chapyter .

The .xvii. chapyter .

HIs .xvii. chapyter begynneth folio .lxii. In the begynnyng wherof he merue●●e●h that I speke so ofte in myne apology , of his vsyng this word Some saye . And he sheweth that in a ●ale tolde hym by other folke , there is good reason that he so sholde say / and that I vse the same worde my selfe to sometyme , and telleth two places where , fo. 77. and fo. 100. I neither dyd nor wyll fynde fawt that he vse this worde some say / nor I wyll not let ( where the case requireth ) to saye my selfe , that some say this or that . For I know well it is englyshe . But the fawte that I founde and yet fynd , is that hys booke of diuysyon abuseth the figure of so many some sayes , to the sedicyo●s slawnder / of the clergye / and specyally of th ordinaryes in the punysshement of heresy , to bryng them in obloquy of the people therby . And where as vppon complayntꝭ made the maters haue late ben examined , & the treuth hath ben playnely proued contrary : yet hath he neuer one Some say therof in al his boke , neyther in the tone boke nor the tother / but all hys Some sayes euer more saye euyll , & neuer a Some say well . This is the fawte that I fynde . For yf he made a boke with fiue times as many good Some sayes , as his Some sayes in that boke be nought : I wold fynd in his Some sayes no defawt at all . For some say is ( as I saye ) good englysshe . But whan a booke is full of shrewde Some sayes : there do some men saye , that Some saye is as shrewd an englysh , as any dowch woman speketh .

But now to shew that in all hys Some sayes he meneth none harme , he goeth ferther , and for a sample he bryngeth forth one , whych is in very dede a very malycyouse noughty pestylent Some saye , wherof the pretence is the sauegarde of innocentes / th effecte is the dekaye of the faythe by the boldyng of heretykes , the instrument is a false imagyned slaunder agaynst the ordynaryes . And as wylyly as those shrewys that begyle hym haue holpe hym to inuolue and in●ryke the mater : I shall vse so playne and open a waye therin , that euery man shall well se the trouth .

Lo these are thys good mannes wordes .

And one of the ( some sayes ) that he fyndeth defau●e at is thys : I saye in the .viii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse thus : And here some saye● that bycause there is so greate a desyre in spyrytuall men , to haue men ab●iured or to be noted wyth heresye : And that some as it were of a polycye doo noyse it , that the realme is full of heretykes , more then it is in dede , that it is very peryllous , that spyrytuall men shulde haue auctoryte to arres●e a man for euery lyght sus●peccyon or complaynt of heresye , tyll that desyre of punyshement in spyrytuall men be ceassed and gone but that they sholde make processe agayne them to brynge them in vppon payne of cursynge : and then y● they t●●ye .vi. dayes , the kynges lawes to bryng them in● by a wrytte of Excommunicato capiendo , and so to be brought forth out of the kynges gayo●e to an●were . And it foloweth in the sayd .viii. chapiter thu● : but surely as it is somwhat touched bef●re in the .vii. chapyter , it semeth that the churche in tyme 〈◊〉 haue done what they coulde to brynge about that they myght punysh heresy of them self , wythout cal●ynge for any helpe therin of the ●ecular power . And therfore they haue made lawes that heretykes m●ght be arrested , and put in pryson , and stockes y● nede w●re , as appe●eth in Clementinis de h●reticis , Cap. Multorum querela . And after at the specyall cal●ynge on of the spyrytualty , it was enacted by parlyament , that or●ynaryes myght arest men● that preche● holde , teche , or enforme other in heresye , there pr●h●●●yte , or that therof holde any ●onuentycles or ●ch●●ys . For ●●me men thynke that the sayd Clementine was not of effect in the kyn●es lawes to arrest any man for heresye . But yf a man were openly and notably sus●ected of heresye , and there were suffycyent recorde and wytnes agaynste hym and there were also a d●u●te , that he wolde ●lee and not appere , wherby he myght infecte other it ●●meth conuenyent● that he be arrested by the body , but not vpon euery lyght complaynt that full lyghtly may be vntrue . And that it wyll be ●yght expedyent that the kynges hygh●es and hys consayle ●oke ●pecyally vpon thys mater , and not to cesse , tyl it be brought to moore quietnes then it is yet : and to se with great dylygence that pryde , couetyse , nor worldly loue be not iudges , nor innocentes be punysshed ne yet that wylfull o●fenders go not wyth●ut due correccyon .

And when mays●er More in his apologye hath recyted the sayd wordes of the sayd trea●y●e : then he endeuoyreth hym sel●e very moch , to make it ●ppere that the mocions that he made in the s●●● treatyse in the place before rehersed be vnreasonable , & can not be brought aboute : or els that yf they we●e brought aboute they sholde do hurte and 〈…〉 . And to make hys sayenges the more accept●●●● / he la●eth sometyme defa●te in my sayenges and sayth tha● I therby defame the iudges spyrytuall , where I defame them not / but say onely that it is ●●pedyent that the kynge● hyghnes and hys couns●yle se / that pryde couetys● nor worldly ●one be n● iudges . And whether thoo wordes amount to that effecte / that mays●er More sayth they do / that is ●● saye that I defame all spyrytuall iudges it appereth e●●dentely they do not .

Now good readers to the entent that you may the more playnely perceyue , both the good mynde of thys good mannys fyrst boke of dyuysyon and also his secunde boke here in defence of the same : take the labour to rede the .xlvi. chapyter of myne apologye fo. 232. And than shall you thynke I suppose , that all hys defence is so faint that I lytell nede to reply .

For fyrst where he sayth , that I saye that in those wordes , he dyffameth the iudges spyrytuall : I wold he had rehersed my wordis with whiche I saye so . For I am sure inough my wordis be no larger than the treuth . But that is hys vsuall crafte to leue out for the more part , both my wordis & the place , bycause men myght wene it were in some part of my boke though they remember not where .

But now bycause he sayeth , that it is euydent that those wordes of his do not amounte vnto the dyffamacion of the spyrytuall iudges : I haue shewed and proued in dede in one or two places of myne apologye , that a●l the great mater of his complaynt , vppon the crueltye of the spyrytuall iudges , in handelyng men for heresy , syth there hath bene very fewe troubled therfore in any dyocise in Englande or Walys / by the space of these xx . yeres or .xxx. laste passed / except onely Lyncoln and London / and that therfore the false complaynt of mysse handelynge , could haue lytle colour any farther then those two dyoceses / and yet to saye the ●routhe neuer complaynt broughte forth by any suche man but in London dyocese , nor yet not but in London and some pyece of Essex alone / and the complayntes vppon examinacyon hadde by the kynges honorable counsayle , alwaye founde causelesse and false : syth thys is I saye so clere , that no man can saye the contrarye , but that thys is trew , I declare and shew in my sayde appologye , that where wyth hys false some sayes he defameth and laboreth to brynge in obloquye of the people , all the spyrytuall iudges in the realme : of wrong and cruell handelynge men for heresye , all the men that his false some says ( if they were trew ) dyd touche , were yet in dede so few , that he myght in a maner as well speke of them by name . And in very dede so few they be . For they be as few or fewer , then are the iuges eyther of the tone benche or the tother .

And therfore when he cometh now forthe vnder shadowe of a shrewed some saye , and sheweth that the spyrytualle men haue a great desyre to put men to abiuracyon , and to haue men noted of heresy , and that therfore tyll they leue that condycyon , it were well done they sholde haue lesse authorytie / & that yt wyll be ryght expedyent that the kynge and hys counsayle loke specyally vppon thys mater , and to se wyth great dylygence , that pryde , couetise , nor worldly loue be not iudges , nor innocentes punnyshed , nor yet that offenders go not wythout dew correccyon : ys not this a lewde colored slaunder and ( wythout any such thynge proued ) a shame lesse dyffamacyon ?

If thys good man wold in lyke wyse wryte and put in prent a nother boke , and there in speke fyrst of ius●yces in generall , as it myght s●me to touche all the iudges of euery base court , & iustyces of the peace to / and then by some certayn cyrcumstaunces restrayne it in such wyse , ●hat euery man may se that he meaneth onely the kyngis iuges at w●stmynster , ● say , that some say that specially of la●e the maters of comen plees be euyll handeled by the iudges / and that in writtes o● errour & in ple●s of the crowne the iudges mysse handle the people sore and do mych wrong / & that some say that they haue this euyl desyre , & that / & that tyl they haue left them , it were w●l done that they had lesse authoryte . And then after such a false folyshe some say● , com forth with his sayeng , & in approbacyon of his other sayng , conclude & saye thus myche farther , it wyll be ryght expedient therfore , that the kynges hyghnesse and hys counsayle loke specally vppon this mater , and to se wyth great dylygence that pryde couetyce , nor worldely loue be not iuges &c , were this wyly folyshe handelynge no false dyffamacyon at all ?

And nowe when he handeleth the spyrytuall ordynaryes wyth lyke wordis for heresye , and his somesays false ymagyned lyes / and though hys boke of dyuison laboreth to draw that false suspicyon farther / yet hym selfe seeth by experyence that whyle there hathe in long whyle but in two dyoceses very fewe bene punyshed for heresye , the slaunder that he soweth toucheth some very few , no lesse than though he wrote in theyr names . How can he therfore for very shame saye that yt is no dyffamacyon ? Weneth he the reders of his worke were all such folys , that he myght auoyde his playne open dede wyth his bare bolde worde , where he sayth yt appereth euydentely nay , where euery wyse man that readeth yt seeth well hym selfe that yt well appereth euydently yes .

Nowe goeth he farther wyth a nother pyece and sayth .

Nor yet my wordes proue not that I wolde haue al spyrytuall iudges chaunged . For the spyrytuall iudges that be nowe , maye be iudges styll , and haue al the propertyes before rehersed , as well as other , for any thyng that I haue sayd . And yet mayster More taketh yt otherwy●e , and sayeth / I wolde haue such iudges , as haue no spyce of any of the sayd poyntes . And he sayth , that tyll suche iudges may be founde , heretykes may make mery for a lytle season / why●e men walke aboute and seche for such iudges / which he weneth wyll not be done in a wekes worke .

Here he leueth oute agayne the place of myne that he toucheth . For when that is ones redde , all hys gay tale is gone . For there shall you se that I consyder hys wordes , and declare two wayes that the good man myght meane / of whyche twanne he taketh here the tone , and the tother he lette●h slype . And yet in takynge his wordes as he wolde nowe seme : my wordes whyche he dyssembleth here , turne vppe a●l his tale / and that the man sawe full well / and therfore wynked of theym . But I shall br●nge theym in agayne here , and repe●e theym for hym . Lo good readers in the .xlvi. chapiter fo. 253. after h●s w●rdes rehersed at length , thus I 〈◊〉 myne owne .

I● thys processe lo good readers this pacyfyer declareth , that he wold haue the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle so specyally loke vppon thys mater , that neyther innocentes sholde be punyshed , nor yet wylfull offenders go wythoute dewe correccyon● who could ende and conclude all hys mater more frutefully .

But now the specyall ways wherby he dyuyseth , that the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle sholde bryng this thynge about be twayne .

The tone is , yf they prouyde that neyther men that be proude nor couetouse , nor haue any loue to the worlde , be suffred to be iudges in any cause of h●resye .

The tother ys , that the byshoppes shall arreste no man for heresye , tyll the desyre that spyrytuall men haue to cause men abiure heresyes , and to punyshe theym for heresyee , be ceased and gone .

And surely I thynke that his two deuyses wyll serue suffycyently for the tone parte / that ys to wytte that none innocentes shall be punyshed . But I fere me very sore , that they wyll not serue halfe so suffycyently for the tother parte , that ys to wytte that wylfull offendours go not with oute correccyon .

For now to begynne with his fyrst dyuyse , that none be suffred to be iudges in cause of heresye , that are proude or couetouse , or haue loue to the world yf he meane of suche as haue none of these affeccyons wyth notable enormyte , then tyll he proue theym that are all redy worse thenne he proueth them yet / that is to saye tyll he proue yt otherwyse by some of theyre outragyouse dedes in the dealynge and myshandelyuge of men for heresy , that he here defameth them of , then he hath yet proued , and that he proue theyre cruell wrongful dealynge , otherwyse then by somesayes , or by hys owne sayenge : the kynges hyghnes & hys counsayle can se for all hys holesome counsayle , no cause to chaunge those iudges that are all redy , but to leue them styll / and them serueth that dyuyse of nought .

And on the other syde , yf he meane that the kynges hyghnesse shal suffer none to be iudges in cause of heresye that hath any spyce at all , eyther of pryde , or of couetyse , or any loue at all vnto thys worlde : heretykes may syt styll and make mery for a lytle season , whyle men walke about and seke for such iuges . For yt wyl not be lesse then one whole wekes worke I wene both to finde such , and to be sure that they be suche .

Here haue you herd good reders a resonable cause why that I sholde take hym that he wolde haue the spyrytuall iuges , such as shold haue no spice of pride couetouse nor worldly loue . For either he must meane so / or elles ( as I sayde ) he must meane on the tother maner which I reherse fyrste , and whych he wold now seme to mean . But then ( as I haue sayd ) yf he ment in the fyrst fashyon as he wolde now seme : all his tale is ouer turned . For then hadde he no cause of any suche complaynte . For he n●yther hadde hym selfe when he wrote nor any man elles , preued by any of theym the contrary . And then neded he not to spende oute hys profounde wysedome , in makynge suche exhortacyons to the kynges hyghnesse and his counsayle , to se with so great dilygence ( as though they had be so long neglygent ) to the thyng that him self could not say nay , but that it was metely well ynough all redy . And thus you se good reders that he lefte oute and dissembled that fyrst part of my wordes , bycause he wys●e nere what to saye therto . And therfore syth , except he ment in the fyrst maner ( which he could not do without the marryng of all his mater ) you se well that him self droue me to thynke , that he wold haue the kynges grace and his counsayle , se dylygently that there shold be no spyrituall iudgis , but they that had no spice of pryde , couetise , or worldly loue at all . And then myghte heretyques as I sayd ( whyle suche iudges were in sekynge ) make mery for a lytle whyle . And I kepte my selfe metely well wythin my boundes . For where I sayde yt wolde be a wekes worke to seke theym : I wene yt wold he fourtenyght ful ere we founde them .

But then gooth he farther somewhat aboute to shewe , that I haue mysse handeled his wordes , & wyth ioynynge myne owne vnto his , haue made yt seme that he sayeth myche worse by the spyrytualtye then he eyther sayde or ment . But when you haue herde all hys tale and myne to , you shall well se good readers that he shall neuer whyle he lyueth conuey this gere so clene . For these are fyrste his wordes here .

And he sayeth / that yt wyll be the more harde to ●ynde suche iuges . For he sayth , that I haue putte that mater oute of doute / that where no men wol●e haue wende ●oneste to haue founde theym , that there I saye / yt wyll be meruaylouse harde to ●ynde any one of theym / eyther prelates , seculere prestes or relygyouse persons . For he saythe that I saye playnely / that haue they neuer so many vertues besyde / that yet I saye , yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man / but that he ys so infected wyth desyre and affeccyon to haue the worldely honour of prestes exalted / that he is thorough suche pryde farre fro suche indyfferency and equytye , as oughte and muste be in suche iudges / whych as he saythe , I assygne to be suche , that they muste haue no spyce of pryde couetyse nor lo●e towarde the worlde .

As to thys laste rehersed sentence of master More this is the trouth therin / I say in an other place of the sayde treatyse , other then that / that mayster More hath rehersed here / that is to say , in the .vii. chapyter of the sayde treatyse , that though many spyrytuall men maye be founde , that haue many grea● ●ertues , and great gyftes of god / as chastyte , lyberalytye , pa●yence , ●obernesse , temperaunce connynge and suche other : yet yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man that ye not infecte wyth the sayde desyre and affeccyon / to haue the worldely honour of pres●ye axalted . And there my sentence endeth , as to thys purpose . But then as yt appereth before , mays●er More in hys sayde Apologye addeth immedyatly to those wordes of myne , wordes of his own puttynge in / whyche be these : That he ye through such pride ferre fro such indifference and equyte / as ought & muste be in the iuges , whyche he sayth I assygne . And he combyneth the wordes to myne / in suche maner as though I spake theym my selfe . So that they that shall rede theym , can none otherwyse take theym , but as my wordes : wherby he perue●teh clerely my meanynge and my sentence therin . For my sentence , ne yet my meanyng therein / is not but that iudges spyrytuall maye haue some spyce of pride couetyse and worldly loue , and yet be meate iudges in heresye / as the frayltye of man suffereth . For we be no angelles but synners , that lyghtlye may fall and be deceyued . Ne I meane not , ne yet my worde● amount not to yt , but that a man may haue a desyre and affeccion / to haue the worldly honour of prestes exalted / and yet be a mete iudge in heresye . For I suppose / that a man may haue that desyre in some degree , and to some entent / and not offende therin / specyally dedely . How be yt he may also lyghtly offende therin , yf he be not ryght well ware .

If thys good man her saye trew in these aforesayde wordes of hys And there my sentence endeth as to this purpose : then am I content to confesse , that he sayth well , and I wronge . But on the tother syde nowe , yf he saye not trewe , hut that in the defamynge and slaunderynge of the spyrytualty , his sentence ended not there , but wen●e there myche farther forth , and so far forthe also / as amounted vnto as myche as I saye that he sayde , & vnto myche more to : then wyll euery man bere me recorde , that I mysse reporte not hym but he me .

Now shall you good reders sone se thys tryed bytwene vs . For hys whole wordis as they lye there to gether , I shall nowe reherse you here . Lo these they be as you shall fynde them bothe in hys boke of dyuysyon , and in myne Apologye fo. 237.

And though many spyrytuall men m●y be founde , that haue ryghte many great vertues and great gyftes of god , as chastyte , lyberalytye , pacyence sobe●nesse , temperaunce , connynge , and suche other / yet yt wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man that is not infecte wyth the sayde desyre and affeccyon to haue the worldely honour of prestys exalted and prefe●red / & therfore yf any lay man reporte any euyll of a pres●e / though yt be openly knowen that yt is as he sayeth / yet they wyll be more dylygent to cause the laye man to cease of that sayenge / then to do that in them is to reforme that is a mysse in the preste that it is spoken of / takyng as if were an occasyon to do the lesse in suche ●eformacyons / bycause laye men speke so myche agaynst theym : But surely that wyl be none excuse to spyrytual rulers afore god / when he shall aske accompt of hys people / that were commytted vnto theyr kepynge .

Now you se good reders , how vntrew it ys that this man telleth you . For here you se that his sentence leueth not where he sayth yt lefte as to that purpose : but you se that yt goeth forth farther aboute that purpose styll , to shewe that it wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man iuste & indyfferent , but that the desyre and affeccyon to haue the worldly honour of prestes exalted and preferred , hath so farre infected them , that yf a lay man reporte any euyll of a preste , though it be openly knowen that it is as he sayth , yet they wyl not onely rather put the lay man to sylence , then any thynge amende the preste : but that they will also do the lesse to the amendment of the preste , because the lay men speketh of yt . whyche affeccyon can not be but a very proude dampnable frowardnesse .

And therfore whyle this good pacifyer there sayth , that all the prestes be so farre infecte wyth such a proud damnable desyre of theyre wordely exaltacyon , that yt wyl be harde to fynde any one of them any other . And then a lytle byfore those wordes ( as you may se in hys sayde chapyter in myn apologye fo. 235. he sayth vnder the fygure of a great rumour amonge the peple / that spyrytuall men punyshe heresyes rather to oppresse them that speke any thynke agaynste theyre worldely honour and rychesse &c: then for zele of the fayth : these wordis of his beyng there such , iudge nowe good reader whether I might not well say that this good man saiyh it wyll be harde to fynde any one spyrytuall man , but that he is so infected with the desyre and affeccyon to haue the wordely honour of prestes exalted , that he is thorough suche pryde farre fro such indifferencye & equyte , as oughte and mus●e be in suche iudges as him selfe assygneth to be such as they muste haue no spyce of pryde couetyse or loue toward the worlde . I am very sure that hys wordes mayntayne myne and more to .

Naye ( sayth he ) for I do not meane that they shold haue no spyce therof . For they may haue some spice therof : and yet maye be iudges in heresye well Inough . For they may haue that desyre in some degree and some entente , and not offende therin , specyally dedely .

But I haue agaynste that proued afore that he muste meane so : or ellys muste haue lefte hys tale vntolde . Fo yf he ment to be contente wyth folke of meane condycyons wythoute notable enormyties , suche they were all redy , and then had his great exhortacyon lytle place .

Also this pryde with whyche hys wordes saye that they be all so sore infected , that it wyl be very harde to fynde any one other / is a very pestylent pryde / and in an hygh degre , and suche as he coulde not well deuyse a more dedely dyffamacyon of the hole spyrytualtye / than those wordes be , whyche yf they were trew ( as they be false ) playnely proued , that in all the hole clergy it were hard to fynde any one good honest man , or me●e to be a iudge , eyther in heresye or in any thynge ellys . And so wold he by this deuyce of his , take awaye as I sayd frome examynacyon of heresye , all the spyrytuall iudges , and leue them none at all .

And yet good readers to th ende that you maye the better perceyue , what those wordis of this man amount vnto / whyche he wolde make you wene here that I both mysse reherse and myssecōs●re : wouch saufe to rede my wordes that I wryte vpon them in myne apologye folio . 238.

But now this good pacyfyer perceyuynge , that it wyl be harde to bere it , but that his wordes clerely take away fro the clergye , all suche indyferency and iustyce , as hym selfe assygneth to be requyred of necessyte , in euery man that shold be suffred to be iudge in heresy / he falleth to another shyfte to saue the mater vpryght . And therin thus he sayth .

And farthermore though it were ●● mayster More taketh it to be / that my wordes shuld sounde to that effect that the iu●es that were then were , through such pryde farre fro the indyfferencye and equytye that I assygne : yet that proueth not / but that they be now indyfferent and ryghtwyse . For they myght syth the ma●ynge of the sayde treatyse , bycome through grace , indyfferent , ryghtwyse , meke , lyberall , and louynge to god and theyr neyghbour / though they were not so then . And yf they be , so then heretyke● shall not make mery for lacke of iudges a weke ne yet a daye . For the same iudges may sit styll wythout chaungynge / to here and e●amyn theym whan nede shal be . Thus as me semeth , it appereth euery waye / that the excepcyon that mayster More taketh of ●haūgyng of spyrytuall iuges is but of smal effecte .

This reason hath so some s●tylty : but it hath no substaunce . For yf they were all so noughty so late , as this good man saith they were , it wyl be but hardely byleued , that so many of them , vppon so shorte a sermon of this poore precher , sholde be so well chaunged so soone , but that as I said , t heretykes were well lyke , yet one weke lenger to make mery , before men myghte haue so sure experyence as to put theym so sone in truste to be iudges in heresye , whom thys pacyfyer hadde perswaded to be so farre vnmete for the mater so late . And therfore it appereth euery waye that thys good mannys inuencyon is towarde euyll of very great / towarde good of very small effecte .

Than goth he forth on with the mater and thus he sayth .

Then sayth mayster More ferther that yf some say ●e no suffycyent profe / then is my tale all l●st . And to these wordes I wyll answere thus . I wyll agree that my sayenge that some saye thys or thys / is no profe / neyther to proue that some saye so / ne yet to proue that it is so . For in euery profe must be two wytnesse at the leste . But yf two wyll saye it is so ● then it is a proffe .

And surely yf mayster More wyll inquere for the truth in thys mater , he shall fynde that there be many mo then two that say so . And veryly yf many m●n saye so● though the tre●th be not so , yet the ta●e i● not all loste to say that some men say so . For then it shall put the byshoppe● and rusers spyrytuall in mynde , that they are bounde in conscience to helpe them that saye so all that they can● fro the daunger that they ronne in by that sayeng . And yf it be true , then may the spyrytuall rulers order the mater as they shall se cause , and reforme it in suche chary●ab●e maner that none shall say so hereafter : but they wyll of malyce do it , and renne into the slander of the Pharyseis : and that wolde charytably be examyned , whether it be so or not .

Thys is a prety pyece , and suche as I haue seldome sene the lyke , come out of any wyse mannys mouth . For though that in iugement , men muste presume a thynge is trewe , whyche two good honest persons sworen and examyned depose and testyfye , that themself haue sene the dede , or herde the wordes spoken , by the mouth of the person whyche for suche dede or sayenge is accused : yet sayth no man for all that / that bycause two men say it and swere it to , therfore it is so . For as to the necessary consequence of the dede / this argument is very faynt that thys man maketh . Two men saye it is so , ergo it is so .

Than vpon thys argument such as you se , he sendeth me to inquere and than I shall he sayth fynde , that there be many mo than two that saye so . That maye well happe now , by occasyon of his boke of dyuysyon . But what yf I enquered of them . that I shold happe to fynd not onely many mo than two , but also many mo than two hundred , that wold say that the spyrytuall men for such euyll affeccyons as this good pacyfyer surmyseth , haue great desyre to abiure men or note theym of heresye : y●t whyse all they coulde amonge them all ley no profe at all / but alway the trouth proued contrary , both by that , that in farre the moste parte of thys realme , and take Walys therto , there haue not ben before his boke of diuysion , fiue men abiured in fiftene yere . And in those that haue bene / rigour hath not ben vsed more than necessary : but there hath ben vsed more than necessary fauour / & that this hath ben alredy proued ofter than ones , before the kynges honorable counsayle , I wold not esteme the bablyng of two hundred , no not though they were two thousand , & yet many mo to , the mountenaunce of .ii. strawes / for any thyng that I wold regard any good man that wurse . But I wold for theyr owne partes be sore ashamed to here them , & clerely perceyuynge that they so lewdely lyed : I wolde be sore ashamed to tell the tale agayn after them . And this I say yf I sholde with inquery thus happe to fynde , as I veryly trust I shold not yf I dyd enquere .

But now his Some say beynge so false as it is , it is a world yet to se what a founde shyfte he fyndeth , that he wolde not yet by hys wyll haue that lye loste . For he sayth , that though the tre●th be not so , yet the tale is not loste to say that some men say so . For ( he saith that ) then it shall put the byshoppes and spyrytuall rulers in mynde , that they are bounde in conscience to helpe theym that saye so all that they can , fro the daungeour that they ronne in by so sayeng .

What good I praye you can thys false Some saye do ? For what can the spyrytuall men do for theyr helpe that so bylye them ? any other than aduise them to leue suche lyeing ? And that had ben a better parte for thys good pacyfyer to haue played hym selfe , & so to haue told them vpon whose tale he wrote it : than to the reproch & rebuke of so many good worshypfull men make a boke of diuisyon , & therin write euery lewde worde , that any lewde folke , or any false shrewes wolde tell hym . Whose euyll tonges the spyrytualtye can neuer appease : but yf to please them they sholde dysplease god / and without lettynge heresyes growe and go forth , shold them selfe rather do euyll than let lewde folke speke euyll .

And now to th entent good reders that you may the more clerely se , to how lytell purpose the pacifyer hath in thys poynt answered me / ye shall vnderstande that my wordes in myn apology whiche he wold seme to answere well here , were these . fo. 257.

But yet is thys pacyfyer not so fauourable towarde folke suspected of heresye , as to take away the power of the byshoppe for euer , of arrestynge them , and to dryue the ordynaryes for euer to sue cytacyons agaynst heretykes and processe of excommunicacyon / but wyll haue he sayeth the bysshoppes power of arrestynge no lenger suspended , thanne as longe as spyrytuall menne haue that great desyre to cause menne abiure or to haue theym punysshed for heresye / as though he hadde well proued that they haue so , bycause he sayeth that some men say so .

But now yf Some say be no sufficyent profe / than is hys tale lost . For than he sheweth no cause why that power of theyrs sholde in any case be more suspended now , than in any time here before . And on the tother syde , yf some say be a good profe / than the ●uspendynge wyll be as longe as a depryuynge for euer , syth there shall neuer be any tyme in whyche there shall lacke one or other some saye to saye more than trouth .

Lo good readers here you se , that vnto the secunde parte of these wordes of myne , he answereth nothynge at all . And than haue you sene before that vnto the fyrste , hys answere is so feble , that it had ben better for him to haue done therwyth as he dothe wyth the tother , leue it vnanswered to .

But nowe goeth he ferther and saith , Then sayth mayster More yet ferther , that which is a lyghte suspycyon and whyche is a heuy , and whyche wytnes be suffycyent , and whych not , must be weyed by the spyrytuall iudges , and vppon theyr weyinge of the mater for lyght or heuy , to folowe the arrest of the party , or the leuynge of the arrest . Now veryly in thys poynt me thynketh that may●●er More maketh a ryght good mocyon , that is to saye , that the mater shulde be examyned before the arreste . For it hath ben sayd in tymes paste , that in suche ca●e the arrest hath many tymes gone before the examynacion . Neuerthelesse vnder what maner the examynacyon and the arrest shulde be made in suche case , I wyll make no deuyse at this tyme : For happely mayster More wold anone fynde a defawt at it , and therfore I wyll leane it to them that haue auctoryte , to treate ferther of it , and to dyuyse how to auoyde the mase that mayster More speketh of in hys sayd .xlvi. chapyter .

Now good readers this man maketh here , as though I hadde geuen hym in my wordes , some greate aduauntage to grounde some great mater vppon . And therfore I shall reherse you what my wordis were , that your selfe maye se how sore I ouersaw my selfe therin , and what he meneth by the mase that he nameth here These are lo my wordes in myne apologye fo. 257.

yet is he content at the laste , leste euery man myghte spye the perell of hys deuyce , to temper hys deuyce in suche wyse , that tyll the spyrytualty haue lefte theyr cruell desyre of abiurynge and punysshynge folke for heresye , they sholde not be suffred to arreste folke for euery light suspycyon , or euery complaynt of heresye . How be it he graunteth that where one is openly and notably suspected of heresye , and suffycyent recorde and wytnes agaynst hym , & bysydes all that , a dowte that he wolde fle wherby he myghte enfecte other : than he graunteth it conuenyent that he shold be arrested by the body . And therin he bryngeth in the Clementine and the statute , by whcih the ordinaries haue power to arrest fol●e for suspycyon of heresye / and wold as farre as I perceyue , haue the kynge reforme them after hys deuyce . But yet syth whych is a lyght suspycyon , and whych is an heuy / and whych is a lyght complaynt , and whych is an heuy / and whych is an open suspycyon , and whyche but a preuy , and whyche suspycyon ys notable , and whyche is not notable , and whyche wytnesses be suffycyent , and which be not suffycyent , be thynges that must be wayed by the spyrytuall iudges / and vppon theyr way●nge of the mater for lyght or heuy , muste folowe the arrestynge of the party or the leuynge of the arreste : we be come agayne as in a mase to the poynt where we beganne , that be the mater greate or smale , lest all the whyle they be cruell they shold iudge lyghte heuy and smale greate , theyr arrestynge of any at all muste be susspended fro them , and sende them to sue by cytacyon , tyll men se that same mynde of theyrs of desyryng mennes abiuracyon and punysshement vtterly chaunged and ceace / that is to say tyll there be no man lefte that wyll so mysche as saye , that some men saye that they haue not lefte that mynde yet , and make a lye agayne of theym than , as those some haue done that haue so sayde all redy to syr Iohn some say now . And longe wyll it be I warraunt you ere euer all suche folke fayle .

And therfore syth in the mean season by thys pacyfyers good deuyse , here●tykes maye go vnarrested / I can not byleue that yf his way were folowed , it wold be any good meane to make that wylful offenders in heresy shold not passe vnpunysshed , as faste as bothe in the ende of thys chapyter & the tother before also , he calleth vpon the kynges hyghnes and hys counsayle and hys parleament , to loke vppon thys mater after his good aduertysement , and neuer ceace tyll they brynge it to effecte .

Here you se good readers , bycause thys man wyth hys deuyces bryngeth hym selfe into a mase , out of whyche he can not se how to gete , he wold now set other folke to study there about . And wolde make theym very carefull , aboute a thynge lytle nedefull . For it hath well appered , & well ben proued to , that the spyritual iuges haue yet hytherto in arrestyng for heresy , ryght well examyned and considered , fyrst bothe the cause , and the necessyte , & haue ben rather therin many tymes to slow / than any tyme ouer hasty . And therfore I maye and wyll say here agayn as I sayd there , that I lytell dowte but that yf the kynges hyghnes do as I dowte not but his hyghnes wyll do , maynteyne and assyste the spyrytualty in executyng of the lawes , euyn those that are all redy made agaynst heresyes / & commaunde euery temporall officer vnder hym to do the same for his part : though ther were neuer mo new laues made therfore , yet shall both innocentes be saued harmelesse well inough , & offendours punyshed to . To thys commeth forth this good man in this wise .

Now veryly to those wordes of mayster More I dare say thus , that mayster More or he had spoken tho wordes , had occasyon by reasonable coniecture to haue doubted more at the mater thenne he hath done , and to haue thought it very lyke , that yf the same lawes shulde s●onde as do nowe in euery poynt concernynge heresye , that many innocentes that be not gylty , myghte vppon suspeccyon of heresy be dryuen to pourge theym selfe , after the wyll of the ordynarye , and yet be not gylty● ye and ouer that mayster More myghte haue reasonably doubted , & as I suppose in conscience he ought to haue doubted more then he hath done , that somtyme innocente● myghte happen vppon the suyte Ex officio , or vppon lyght complayntes by fauour of offycers , or ●ppon malyce or dyspleasure , be arrested before examinacyon , and yet mayster More hym selfe assenteth , that the examynacyon shulde be before the arreste . And he myghte haue doubted also , that some innocentes myght by suche periured persons , as be aboue rehersed in thys chapyter be somtyme condempned . And therfore the sayde wordes of mayster More wherby he taketh vppon hym to saye , as it were in hys owne auctoryte to performe it , that innocentes by the same lawes as be all redy made for heresye , shal be saued harme lesse well inough , myght happen to be of small effect to helpe an innocent man or woman that shulde happen to be wrongfully troubled in tyme to come agaynst hys wordes before rehersed

Now verily to all these wordis of this good man , I dare say thus , that I whan I wrote the wordis had & yet haue very good coniecturs to put litle dowt therin . For though I myghte thynke that this harme and this harme myghte happe : yet syth I haue well sene it proued , that the spyritual iudges haue vsed themself in these maters , not onely so truly , but ouer that also so fauorably / that no man can ꝓue in this realm suche harmes to haue happed yet / but where as such thynges haue ben of late surmysed , the trouth hath ben well proued contrary byfore the kyng●s honorable counsayle / I had and haue very good cause to thynke , that as they haue done well hytherto , so shall they well do hereafter .

And syth all thys good mannes grownd is no more , to take away wel approued lawes with , but the harme maye happe sometyme , to some good man therby , whyche reason he maye make agaynst the beste lawe that all the worlde can make : I dare be bold to warraunt , that that colde reason so feruentely sette forthe in suche a weyghty mater , is not well worthe a ryshe .

And yf men wolde go aboute to chaunge these old long proued lawes : I wolde as my duyte is , praye god geue them the grace to make the chaunges good / but for that lytle wyt that I haue , I veryly byleue and thynke that ●f any chaunges be made rather more slacke then streighter : then shal the chaunges be made rather farre worse then better . And thus ende I good readers this good mannys xvii . chapyter .

The .xviii. chapyter

HIs .xviii. chapyter begynneth , fo. lxix . Wherin he beginneth first wyth the ca. vt inquisitionis negocium & li. vi . wherby yt appereth , that all lordes and rulers temporall , be prohyhyted that ●ey shall not in any maner take know●edge or iuge vppon heresye . And vp●on this hym self addeth vnto it in hi●●oke of dyuysyon , that he that enquyret● of heresy , taketh knoweledge of her●●y , and that him selfe sayth not so alone , but that Summa Rosella sayth so to . And hereuppon he concludeth , that yt sholde seme , that all the iustyces of the peace be excommunycate , and al stewardes in letys , & all enquestes to , as many as medle wyth all . For whether in letys they may or not , that he sayth he dowteth , but he sayth that I say they may , but he telleth not where I say so , nor as I veryly thynke he neuer founde yt in any boke of myne . I saye in myne apologye , fo. 227. that in euery lete they do so , whyther they lawfully so maye do or not thereof speke I nothynge / all be yt I thynke they may well ynough , bothe wythout offence of the kynges lawe , or parell of c●rsynge eyther .

For I lytle doute , but that ●here were of the clergye at the m●kynge of the statute mo men then ●e , that vnderstode Summa Rosel● , as well as thys good man doth , yf Summa Rosella were then made and in mennys handes .

And I doute not also as lytle , but that there were at those days in the clergye mo then one , that were of counsayle in the makynge of the statute , that vnderstode the chapyter vt inquisitionis , as wel as this mam doth , and as well as he that made Summa Rosella to . And that they well vnderstode that the sayde chapyter ment of suche inquysytours , and suche inquysycyons , as they make that are in the corps of the lawe called Inquisitores heretice prauitatis / of whyche there are in some places specyall offycers to enquyre , procede , and do therin as th ordynaryes do : and ment not of such inquyrours and suche inquysycyons , as do none other wise inquyre , but onely by way of informacyon to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes knowledge .

For as for the minour of this good mannys argument , that he that enqnyreth of heresye , taketh knowledge of heresye , so dothe euery denouncer , euery accuser , and in a maner euery wytnesse to , take vppon theym knowledge of heresye in some maner wise : for they take vppon theym as they well maye that thys thynge or that thynge is heresye . But thys is not the knowlege that the law forbede●h : but the knowledge that we call holdynge ple vpon yt , whyche our inquysycyons do not : but onely serue to brynge the mater to the ordynaryes handes , whyche ellys sholde peraduenture not haue herde therof .

And for thys cause , to be sure that by these inquysycyons no man shold fall in daunger of any examynacyon yt was substancially prouyded in the sayde statute , that thynquistcyō and the endyghtement of heresye , shold serue the ordynarye nothynge to the procedynge in the mater : but that he shold begynne hys processe agaynste the partye a freshe , wythoute layenge that endyghtement vnto hys charge .

And therfore where as this good man , by the hygh authorite of Summa Rosella denounceth here al the iustyces of peace accursed . I dare be bold by the hyghe authoryte of Summa Angelica to denounce them all assoyled agayne . And therfore where as this good man wenynge that he had well wonne hys spurrys in thys poynte tryumpheth vppon me and say●th .

And to thy● lawe mayster More an●wereth not , But passeth yt ●uer , as a thynge that ●● yt semeth he lyt●e regardeth / but onely that he sayth , that the lawes of thys realme , and of holy chyrche in heresyes maye well stande to gether , for oughte that he seeth : And yet yt appereth , that vppon thys lawe they do not agree nor stande to gether . And therfore me thynketh yt wol●e not be so lyghtly passed ●ue● as mayster More doth passe yt ouer . For yt is a dangerous thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche .

There were two causes for whyche I answered hym not / one a generall cause , concernynge all hys maters of lawes of the chyrche , wherin he fyndeth fautes , of whych I shall speke afterwarde . A nother specyall cause there was concernynge thys excommunycacyon . And that was that me thought & yet thinke , that he spake therin so chyldyshely that I was a shamed on his byhalfe to medle with yt / and to make open hys chyldyshe handlynge therof .

But nowe syth I se hym compte for so great a conqueste , that he put me to sylence therin , what purpose can he dyuyse for whyche I sholde haue answered any thynge to that poynt ? had I made any professyon to proue euery worde wronge that he sayd in all hys hoke ? he knoweth that I sayde not that I wolde medle , but wyth those certayne thynges that I there speke of .

But now suppose that there were in that law such faute as he allegeth what could myne answere amende the mater , or his boke of diuisyon either ? If men were accursed as he mysse taketh it , could my boke or his boke take away the curse ? No , but we may put the parlyament in mynde to make a lawe . His boke alone is as able to put theym in remembraunce therof as hys and myne to gether . And yet for that poynte neyther nedeth myne nor hys neyther . For the parlyament hath made all redy a lawe for these inquysycyons . Whych yf thy myght lawfully make in such forme as they haue ( as I am sure they myght ) then am I sure that they fall not in excommunycacyon for it . Now if they myghte not laufully make it , & therby fel ther in , what could the parlyament farther adde vnto it , that might deliuer them of yt ? And therfore I can not in good fayth se to what purpose he wrote of that poynte hym selfe .

No but thys lawe is one great cause of dyuisyon betwene the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye . That wolde I very fayne wyt howe . For temporall men be not I wote well so farre ouersene , as to be angry wyth the spyrytual men here now , for that lawe that a pope made at Rome ere they were borne . And the spyrytuall men haue also as lytle cause agayn of any grudge agaynst the temporaltye for the mater . And therfore why he sholde put yt in hys boke of dyuysyon , for a cause of diuisyon I can dyuyse no reason . Foras for that , that he wolde shold seme a cause here , is to vnresonable where he sayth .

As long a● that law siddeth so vnrepelled / s●me prestes that se yt , wyll saye that they that do agaynste yt / be accursed : and so may lyghtly fall the●by into a wrongfull and vntr●w iudgement / whych though yt be no great offence , oneles yt be of pryde / by dyspysynge of the temporall power in that behalfe , yet yt wolde be eschewed . And also yf they that be so noysed to be accursed / here of yt , they wyll be dyscontented . And so grudges and varya●nces maye ryse and encrease by occasyon of yt .

Thys is a very colde tale , & as dede as euer was dore nayle . For before hym selfe broughte in thys babelynge of his owne about that lawe / ( whych babelyng is yet ) as I haue shewed you ) to no purpose at all ) I neuer herd any man talke any such worde of that lawe in my dayes , nor in good fayeth no more I wene dyd he neyther .

Nor I dare saye he hereth no where yet any prestes saye , that the iustyces of the peace be accursed for enquyrynge agaynste heresyes / none I dare saye but suche prestes as be heretyques . And therfore thys whole tale of his , saue for the malice that yt meaneth / ys euyn a very try●lynge .

For as for the mocyon that he maketh so often to haue that lawe repelled , bycause yt is he sayth agaynst the lawes of the realme : excepte he mokke I wote nere what he meaneth . For yf the realme here may repell yt : them by that the law is here made to the contrarye ( yf yt were contrary as yt is not ) yt is repelled all redy . And yf he thynke that the realme here can not re●ell yt / thenne wereto wryteth he and prenteth that pyece in his boke of dyuysyon , as a thynge for whyche the temporaltye & the spyrytualty of thys realme sholde fall in varyau●ce for , where neyther the makynge nor the repellynge lyeth in neyther nother of theyr handes .

But surely the repellyng though yt be the thyng that is spoken of , is not yet the thynge that ys ment in thys mater as yt aypereth in these wordes .

And therfore me thynketh yt wolde not be so lyghtly pa●sed ouer as mayster More doth passe yt ouer . For yt is a daungero●s thynge to fall into the lefte censure of the chyrche . And yf yt be sayde , that the sayde lawe ys voyde , bycause the chyrche hadde no authoryte to make yt : And that yt is therfore not to be fered . And I wyll yet say therto , that though yt were voyde / that yet as longe yt standeth so not repelled , yt were good to eschewe it , and not to fal wylfully into the daunger of yt : and therfore yt were better to repelle yt then to lette yt stande styll , and rather do hurte then good .

Here you may se good readers , that where as otherwyse to repell that law then it is repelled , lyeth not in oure handes yf oure lawe were agaynste yt / and where as of ●routhe yt nedeth no repellynge at all , but the lawe of the realme standeth ther wyth well ynough , he maketh as though al ●he iustyces of pea●e were accursed there by , as ofte as they geue the iuryes in charge to enquyre of heresye : therfore leste they sholde wylfully fal into the censures of the chyrhe , wherof as he sayth the leste is a daungerouse thyng , ye may playnly se that these wyly shrewes whych abuse his labour , meane in all thys mater nothynge ellys , but that they wolde not haue heresyes enquyred of . And yet they nede not so greatly to care therfore , for any great thingꝭ that by such inquisyciōs are in heresyes presented . But yet thus declare they theyr good wylles these wyly shrewes that thus deceyue this good symple soule , & set hym so euyll a worke .

If he fere so myche the censures of ●h● chyrche as he maketh for , and vnd●rstande and byleue Summa Rosella so surely as he pretendyth : yt hadde ben better for hym to examyne well hys boke of dyuysyon , and thys his seconde boke also by the tytles of Summa Rosella , and se well why ther hym selfe varye not fro Summa Rosella , & be by the sentence of Summa Rosella fallen in the censures of the chyrche hym selfe , by some such maner of wrytynge as hys sayde bokes haue .

But now cometh this good pacifi●r forthe wyth a goodly pyece & to declare hym selfe indyfferent , and to shewe also a great ouersyght vsed vppon my parte : thus the good man Some say sayth .

And therfore yt semeth ryght expedyent that the sayd law be repelled . And in lyke wyse it were good to repelle all suche lawes spyrytuall , as be made contrarye to the kynges lawes and the custome of the realme . And yf yt be sayde , that yt were good also / that suche statutes and lawes / as be made and vsed by the temporall power to the grefe of the people were also reformed / and that yf I were indyfferente / I wolde make some mocyon so to h●u● yt : And so it semeth maysier More doth parte●● 〈◊〉 that I ought to haue done , & to haue founde 〈◊〉 defaute in the temporall lawe as in the spyry●●●ll lawe : How be yt bycause be wolde beare n● 〈◊〉 of the temporall lawe in that mocyon , yt s●m●th that he somwhat mytygateth hys sentence 〈◊〉 and sayeth / that yf I do so / and that then I 〈◊〉 theym / that ys saye , the temporall lawes and ●ynde defautes at them / as trewly as I do at these● that is to saye at the spyrytuall lawes : that then I shulde make two lyes for one / and yet as I suppose , I haue assigned some defautes in the spyrytuall lawe , whyche mayster More can not tell howe they shul●●●e excused .

As to hys repellynge , I se as I haue sayde no substaunce in hys wordes . For we repell theym as farre as I se we can , when we kepe theym not but make our owne lawes to the contrary . And therfore as farre as I se all that he speketh of these repellynges , saue onely for settynge forth of his dyuysyon , is ellys but a very vayne tale .

But nowe where he sayeth that I wolde haue hym and seme to moue hym / to fynde fautes in the temporall lawe to . I wote nere whether his word● haue herein more falsed or more foly / but surely they haue both twayn , and eyther the tone or the tother double .

For fyrste euery man maye se by his owne wordes euen here , that I moue hym not to vse as for indyffer●ncye , to fynde fautes in the temporall lawes as he hath done wyth the spyrytuall lawes , when hym selfe here sheweth that I saye that yf he so dyd , he sholde make double lyes . This sheweth that he vseth in thys saynge playne and open vntrouthe . And syth hys owne vntrouthe appereth vppon hys owne shewynge , thys sheweth also , that he vseth open foly .

And where he sayeth that he hath assygned some defautes in the spyrytuall lawes , which I can not tel how they sholde be excused : I answere hym agayne , that vnto all lawes , or all maters that he lyste to bable of , am I not bounde to medle wyth / but of these spyrytuall ● lawes that were made for the repressyng of heresyes , wyth whyche oure temporall lawes are also conformable and concurraunt wyth whyche ● thys good wyse man for the ease of heretyques , hath now founden suche fautes as a wyse man maye be ashamed to speke of , I haue clerely declared that they nede not to be excused / but that for the fyndynge of suche fautes hys foly to be myche accused . Thys haue I proued so playne , that he can fynde no great cause of glorye when he lokath backe vppon yt .

But nowe to th entent you maye good readers se , that eyther this man is not so symple in hym selfe as he semeth , or els that some wyly shrewes shamefully do deceyue hym : I beseche you consyder a lytle eyther the foly or the crafte that the man vseth here .

He hathe brought you forth wordes of myne whych I speke he sayth of the lawes , where as of trouthe I speke theym not of the lawes at all , as your selfe shall well se. For though he dyssemble the place bycause he wolde not haue you reade yt : yet haue I soughte yt oute for you , in the .99 . leaf of myne Apologye / and there lo these are my wordes .

And thys pacyfyer aggreueth ( as myche as in hym lyeth ) the clergye of Englande , for vse of the lawes not made by theym selfe , but be commen lawes of all chrystendome .

If he wyll saye that he blameth but theyr abuses therof , the trouth appereth in some place otherwyse in hys boke . And yet syth he proueth that poynte but by a some saye / he myght wyth the same fygure lay lyke fautes in the temporaltye concernynge the lawes of thys realme , and proue yt in lyke wyse wyth a greate Somme say to . And therin he sheweth him self not indyfferent whan he bryngeth in the tone and leueth the tother out . And on the tother syde , yf he brynge in the tother to / than shall he make two fawtes for one . For yf he handle them as truely as he handeleth these / than shall he make two lyes for one

Lo good readers consyder here I bysech you the maner of thys good man . To the fyrst piece of these wordes of myne , in whyche case is also the law that we be now in hand with al , vt inquisitiōis , wherwith he wold in hys boke of dyuysyon aggreue the clergye of this realme whych neuer made the lawe : he answereth not in all his boke one word . And yet in his such maner of aggreuynge he vseth a very synfull , and in hys not answerynge , a very shamfull waye .

Than in the remanaunt you se good readers your self , that I speke not of the lawes . For whan I saye thus , yf he wyll say that he blameth but theyr abuses therof : yet syth he proueth that point but by a Somsay / he myghte by the same fygure laye lyke fawtes in the temporalty to , concernyng the lawes of this realme : is it not here playne that I laye blame in hym , for hys bylying of the mynistres of the spyrytuall lawes vnder a figure of Somsay , as though they abused the spyrytuall lawes in myssehandelynge of heretykes wherof I speke more aft●r . And I saye that by a lyke figure of Some say , he might dyffame all the temporall mynis●res to , and brynge theym in grudge and obloquy of the peple wyth lyke lyes of abusyng the temporal lawes to .

Now consyder good readers , ey●ther how fa●sely thys honest man hath hym self , or ellys how folyshly he hath suffered false shrewys , to make hym turne and chaunge the sentence of my wordes fro the men to the lawes , to brynge in his maters vppon , and say that I moue hym to fynde fawtes in the temporal lawes and put them in pr●n●e abrode as he doth in the tother , wh●re as you playnely se I speke not of the lawes but of the mynis●res / nor yet aduise hym to vse suche fasshyon wyth the tempora●l mynystres neyther , leste he make two lyes for one .

Is not now thys chaunge of my sentence that he maketh here a very shamelesse dealynge , eyther of hym selfe , or of some shrewed counsayle of hys ?

And now knytteth he to this handelynge the remanaunt of the sayde .xix. chapyter , and sheweth that he speketh fyrste of the spyrytua●tye , bycause the causes of the dyuysyon specyally be growen by theym / and layeth forthe a sorte of gryefes , some parte very tryfles , and some parte remedyed before hys booke of dyuisyon made , and some parte very folyshe , & some part for all hys some sayes vndowtedly very false .

He hath there two leuys in the ende of that chapiter which any wyse man that readeth them , shall I suppose , iudge a very dreamynge tale . And therin it semeth that as he hath bygonne wyth the spyrytuall lawes , so he wyll after procede in the temporal lawes to . And fayne wold the man make me so fonde as to be hys felow therin / and saith yf I know any such made , as the perleament had none authoryte to make , or wheruppon the people ha●e i●ste cause to complayn : it w●r● we●● done that I shold shew them . And so he thynketh verily that cher●t● shold compell me to do , seynge that I am he sayth lerned in the lawes of the realm● .

Veryly yf I knewe any suche : yet wold I not folow neyther this good mannys holy exhortacyon , nor hys godly sample neyther , to do in the tone as he hath done in the tother , but yf I lyked hys doynge a lytell better than I do .

And yf I be lerned in the temporall lawes , the lesse wyll I folowe his counsayle . For the better that I were lerned in them the lesse wolde I wene it wold become me , to prent and put abrode amonge the people , a slawnderous boke of them to shame theym .

And vnto this point good readers I haue answered and shewed my mynde in myne apologye byfore , wherto thys man geueth a defe eare alwaye . And here , vppon a soughte occasyon with a fonde wyly chaunge of my wordes , exhorteth me to the thynge to whyche I made answere all redy . And what I before sayde therin , that he dyssembleth , and sayth not one worde therto . But in myne apologye good readers , the .159 . leaf these were in this poynt my wordes .

Hys other murmours & grudges that he sayth he can not now reherse , he reherseth after many of them in his other chapyters / whych I wyll passe ouer vntowched , bothe for that the more parte of them be suche as euery wyse man wyll I suppose answere them hym selfe in the redynge , and satysfye hys owne mynde wythout any nede of myne helpe therin / & for that some thynges are there also therin , that are very well sayed / and some also that be they good or badde , I purpose not to medle myche wythall , as are the thynges that towche any lawes or statutes all redy made , be they of the chyrche or of the realme , defende them I am content to do , yf I thynke them good . But on the tother syde yf I thinke them nought / albe it that in place & tyme conuenyent I wold geue myn aduice & counsaile to the chaunge , yet to putte out bookes in wrytynge abrode amonge the people agaynste theym , that wolde I neyther do my selfe , nor in the so doynge commende any man that doth . For yf the lawe were suche as were so farre agaynste the lawe of god , that it were not possyble to stande wyth mannes saluacyon / than in that case the secrete aduyse and counsayle may become euery man / but the open reprofe and redargucyon therof may not in my mynd well become those that are no more spyrytuall than I. And sure yf the lawes maye be kepte and obserued without perell of soule , though the chaunge myght be to the better : yet out of tyme & place conuenyent to put the defawtes of the lawes abrode amonge the people in wrytynge , and wythout any suretye of the chaunge geue the people occasyon to haue the lawes in derysyon , vnder which they lyue , namely syth he that so shall vse to do , may somtime missetake the mater & thynke the thyng not good wherof the chaunge wold be worse : the way wyll I not as thus aduised neither vse my self nor aduise no frend of myne to do And therfore I wyll as I saye leue some thinges of his boke vntouched , whyther he say well or euyll .

Here you se good readers myne answere to thys poynt , concernynge the fyndynge of fawtes and puttyng theym abrode in prente : whiche answere he dyssembleth , & agayne prouoketh me to the same , as though he had neuer herd it / whyche answere I wyll therfore be had as repeted in euery place where he prouoketh me hereafter to the same poynte . And thus you se good reders , that where as he hath not in any one chapyter of hys , brought forth any reason yet : yet hath he brought forth leste in this hys .xviii. in whiche he bosteth moost . For by thys hath he playnely declared , that he neyther vnderstandeth the law vt inquisitionis , that he alledgeth , nor so mych as the pore summe called Summa rosella neyther . For that good man that made it , vndowtedly neuer ment of suche inquisicions as ours are , of whyche maner he hadde happely neuer knowen none . And as for the law , they very fyrste wordes therof to hym that vnderstondeth them and consydereth them well , suffycyently do declare , that that lawe forbedeth laye men to medyll wyth suche maner knowledge of heresye , as sholde be a let and impedement to the ordynaryes , or other the spyrytuall inquisitours / & not suche knowledge as we take by our inquisicyons , that onely serue to helpe the toth●r forth & bringe the mater to theyr handes .

And ther●ore syth I se well , that this man in the laten lawes and Summes , hath so lytell vnderstandynge : I shall be the more content in his lawes & his Sūmys , so mych the lesse to dyspute or medle wyth hym .

The .xix. chapyter .

IN his .xix. chapite● he declareth what he meaneth by confederacyes of the spyrytualtye / and sayth he meneth confederacyes wherby spyrytuall men pretende to mayntayne some suche lawes of the chyrche , and some such constytucyons prouincyall , as are agaynste the kynges lawes and the olde customes of the realme / and putteth for a sample , the puttyng of ●restes to answere afore temporall iudges , & the statute made de Silua cedua , and the statute of Mortuaryes . As for conuentyng of prestis before seculare iudges , trouth it is the one tyme th occasyon of a sermon made the mater come in communication before the kyngis hyghnes . But neyther any tymes synnys nor many yerys afore , I neuer herd that there was any bysynes about it . And yet was the mater ceaced long before any worde sprange of this great generall dyuision , that his boke maketh as though there were such , in a maner generall thorow the whole realme .

And diuerse statutes haue there sinnys ben made , concernynge the same poynt . And many prestes conuented as they were wont to be byfore / and no by synes made by the spyrytualty therfore that I here of , nor I trow him self neither . And in lyke wise men cutte downe theyr woodꝭ euery yere , in one place & other of the realme / & eyther is there not asked the tyt●e ag●ynst the statute / or yf some person wold with good wyll gete it , & therfore aske yt , he geteth yt not yet in dede . For where he sayeth that yf I wolde remember my self well , how often the constitucion prouincial , made agaynste the statute de Silua cedua , hath ben put in execucyon of late dayes , to the gryefe of many lay men : I wolde not haue sayde so generally that there is not any one constytucyon prouinciall that he speketh of , to any mannes gryefe or grudge put in execucyon in the tyme of any of the prelates that are now lyuyng / and affermeth that the same constytucyon hath of late in the tyme of dyuerse of the same prelates that nowe be , ben put in execucion , to the gryefe and grudge of many persons within this realm . Fyrst as towchyng myne owne rememberaunce : in good faith I can not remember one . And as to his owne remembraunce , vpon which he affermeth it to haue ben done so lately , to the grudge and gryefe of so many : he shall perdon me though I byleue hym not tyll he proue it , or at the leste wyse name them that haue had the wynnyng , & them also that haue borne the losse / so that I may my self proue whyther it be trewe or not . For excepte he do the tone , ellys haue I good cause in the meane whyle , in this poynte to gyue no greate credence to hym .

For fyrste I can scantely byleue that vppon the persons bare worde , for allegacion of the constytucyon prouyncyall , his paryshen wold let hym haue it . And yf there happed any man that wold : yet am I sure they were so few , that it were so dowble foly to lay that for any cause of diuisyon , which were done bothe but by a few , and also not without the parties wyll , and rather of his own pryuate deuocion , than for any fere of compulsion .

Now if the person wold take it of hys parishon byforce : I se the comen experyence therin suche : that I dare boldely saye the whole paryshe wold not suffre hym . And yet yf it were taken in dede : neyther sholde the person enioy the profyte , nor the paryshen bere the losse / but sholde at the kyngis comen lawe recouer a ryght large amendes . For well ye wote his dammages sholde be tared hym , not by .xii. prestes , but by .xii. temporall men , & his costes by the kynges iudges that are no prestes neyther .

Now yf this man wyll saye , that many of the personys haue in the tyme of the prelates that now be lyuynge , or that were lyuyng at the tyme that hym selfe wrote those wordes , recouered in any of the spyrituall courtis , the tythe of such woodꝭ , agaynst the statute , by force of that prouinciall cōstytucyon : I wyll se this man proue it ere I byleue hym in it . For the dayngeour of that suit may be p●raduenture more , than I suppose the person wyll put in perell for his tythes . And also the paryshen maye soone stoppe the suit in the begynnyng by the kyngis prohybycyon / wherby the kyngis iudges shall se whyther the person sewe for suche tythes or not , & wyll not therin suffre hym to procede .

And therfore tyll thys good man make me better proues of this mater than hys owne bare sayenge : he geueth me no cause agaynste so many lettes to the contrary , therin to byleue his word . But I durst wel warraunt it , that if he come ones to the namyng of the partyes , so that the specialtyes of the maters may be sought out and made appere : you shall surely fynd it vntrewe .

Now than to mayntayne withall hys great word of confederacyes : he bryngeth forth that some prestes say styll , that those tythes & mortuary●s also , for al the statutes be theyr dewtyes styl , & that they which pay them not be accursed . I haue espyed thys good man is a man of sadnesse , & no great gamener . For yf he were he wolde neuer be angry for an angry worde , spoken by a man that is on the lesynge syde . Hit is an olde courtesye at the cardys perdye , to lette the leser haue hys wordes . And in good fayth in thys mater I here no suche talkyng at all . And veryly this deuyce of his to put thys for a cause of diuisyon , is in my mynde a very chyldyshe thynge .

But thanne goeth he ferther that prestes make partycular confederacyes , to mayntayne obytys , & prestes wages , and to haue more at byryalles than they haue bene wont to haue or ellys to shewe them selfe not content , that is to saye to aske more than they can gete / and bycause they can not gete it , shewe them selfe not content / that is to wytte lowre and loke angerly , and say they be not pleased . Be not these hygh maters and mete for that heyghnouse name of confederacyes

And yet goeth he ferther wyth an other heyghnouse confederacy , that yf a preste haue a besynesse to do in some countreys : other prestes wyll as it is sayde so confeder whyth hom at arbytr●nentes and other metynges / or ellys make theym suche frendes pryuyly , that the tother partye though he be of right good substaunce a haue also good ryghte / yet shall he sometyme haue mych a do to obtayne yf .

Is not here good readers a wonderfull heyghnouse worke , and well worthye the name of confederacies of the spyrytualte / that but in some countreys , nor there neyther of any certayntye , but as some saye , some prestes in the besynesse of a nother preste , wyll , and yet but somtyme neyther at arbytrementes confedere wyth theyre good worde to helpe forthe theyr felowe , or ellys to make hym frendes ? Ye and thenne what a myschyefe he sheweth that enseweth therupon ? The tother party hath he sayth myche a do to obteyn his ryght and yet that but somtyme neyther . But as for lese his ryght by theyre meanes , he sayeth not that any man dothe . Be not these heyghnouse confederacyes , & thynges mete for thys man to make a boke of diuysyon for ? And yet as though he had very well acquyte hm selfe : he knytteth yt vp wyth these wordes .

And these be some of the confederacyes of pres●es that I ment of / and not the gatherynge to gether of the clergye at the conuocacyons .

In good fayth I sawe not howe he sholde meane any other thynge , nor that neyther well . For the name of confederacyes taken to an euyll parte as thys man taketh yt , dothe sygnyfye a metynge and gatheryng to gether , and a determynacyon of certayne euyll folke , conspyrynge to gether aboute an euyll thynge to be done , wyth a couenaunt and promyse by eche of theym made vnto other , eche to stande wyth other therin . Nowe where as at conuocacyons good men come to gether to do good , and therfore he coulde not call theym confed●racyes as he nowe sayeth he ment not to do : yet I douted somewhat whyther he so ment or not , bycause the conuocacions be at the leste wise comen assemblies to gether , wher of he myght hap I thought to geue a good thyng an euyl name . But these maters that he now speketh of , I could not ymagyne that euer he ment to cal them confederacyes , wherin he neyther seeth assemblies , nor can assygne and proue any conspyracy & mutuall ꝓmyse , in assystyng eche other about the procurement of any thynge at all good or bad . For where as he sayth that these be some of the confederacy●s that he ment : I am sure no man douteth but that these be eyther all he confederacyes that he fyndeth , or ellys at the leste wyse the greatest . And thenne are those that he calleth here partyculare confederacyes , so chyldyshe that in good faythe I myche meruayle , that his herte could serue hym for very shame to speke of them . And then the tother that be taketh for generall confederacyes / he neither seeth nor assygneth so mych as any assembly about theym , or promyse or abettement to procure and pursue theym . And therfore though some prestes wold here or there speke of them as theyr owne affeccyon sedeth theym : this is farre fro the nature and name of confederacye .

And yet when he hath al to gether done , whyle he proueth nothynge at the vttermoste ( though all that he sayeth were as trew as yt is not ) but that they wolde fayne haue the tythe of tymber styll , and that they wolde fayne haue the mortuaryes styll , and that some wolde fayne haue greater wages , and some wolde fayne haue more money at the beryalles , then for all theyre fayne wyllynge they can gete / when they wold onely fayn haue yt , and yet in dede gete nought of yt , nor other folke nothynge lese : to make now so great a mater of this and call yt an hyghnouse name of confederacyes , ys as me semeth somewhat lyke to hym , that wolde nedes haue an accyon agaynste his neyghbour bycause his neyghbours ho●se stode and loked ouer his hedge . For he sayde that he sawe by hys countenaunce that he wolde haue eaten hys grasse yf he coulde haue goten to yt . For as for that , that the hedge letted hym , was lytle thanke to hym / for hys wyll was neuer the lesse . And thus hys .xix. chapyter you se good readers howe lytle reason is in yt .

The .xx. chapyter .

HIs .xx. chapyter begynnynge in the lxxvi . leaf , hath so lytle effecte & substaunce in it , and so faintly defendeth his formare mater whyche yt pretendeth to defende , that I puroose to make no longe worke aboute yt .

For yf you rede fyrste his wordes as they lye in mine Apology fo. 159 in the seconde syde begynnynge at these wordes , And here me thynketh I myghte saye : ye shal there good readers fynde , that I reherse those wordis of his euyn whole , wyth those wordes in them , which he wold in the begynnynge of this his .xx. chapyter , make men byleue that I had wythdrawen / as though they were wordes of suche substancyall effect , that I wold not haue it appere in my boke that he had wryten so piththely .

Afterwarde in a nother place where they be rehersed again fo. 162 then prenter of lykelyhed left them out of ouersyght & hast . And surely they be not of so great weyght , but that if the authour had hym selfe left them out in his boke of dyuysyon , yt had made lytle mater . And yf he had ouer that left out the whole clause : then hadde he lefte in hys boke one lye the lesse , and hys boke the better by so myche . For wherby proueth he that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theym selfe to be so clene and pure , that there ys no defaute in theym , but all in the people alone , and in theym selfe no maner faute at all ? Where herde he euer any spyrytuall man saye thys , by the whole spyrytualtye or by any one man therof ?

They confesse theym selfe to be men and synners . And they confesse and knowledge also , that the very cause of thys chyefe myschyefe that nowe begynneth to make dyuysyon , that ys to wytte the execrable heresyes , whyche myschyefes thys good mannys euyll deuyses with chaunge of good lawes were lykely to mayntayne , yf men wolde folowe theym : dyd bothe begynne , and ys also sette forthe & auaunced forward , by those vngracyouse folke that are suche amonge the spyrytualtye , as Iudas was amonge th apostles / & thys not in thys realme onely , but in othe● countreys to . As by frere Luther , and preste Pomerane , Otho the monke , and frere Lambert , frere Huskyn , and Swynglius / & here in Englande Tyndale , frere Barns George Ioy , & some other suche , as with the sede of sedycyouse heresye , haue so wen and set forth dyuysyon .

Thys thynge the spyrytualtye bothe knoweth & knowledgeth . And therfore they do not pretende as thys pacifier sayth they do , that there hath ben no faute amonge theym , but all amonge the people . And therfore this good man where he sayeth that I lefte out thre wordes in that clause of his ( which yet I did put in indede : hym selfe hadde somwhat amended hys mater with leuyng in of one lye the lesse , yf he had left out the whole clause all to gether .

As to that that he sayth I chaunged his wordes in the ende from these wordis the syghte of grace that ys spoken of before wyll not appere , into 〈◊〉 wordes the syghte of grace tha● 〈◊〉 spoken of byfore , be wyth you no● and euer more amen : therin he sayeth very trewe . For syth ●e was fallen into preachynge , I not onely in the fyrst place rehersed hym as he spake hym self , but afterward also in the seconde place I toke the payne for hym to mende his colla●yon in that poynt , & make yt ende some what more lyke a sermon with a good gracyouse prayour .

Then goeth he forthe , and in the same lefe and the next folowyng , he maketh a suspicyouse mater , and can not tell what mynde I was of , in chaungynge his worde spyrytuall rulers , into this worde prelates . But loke good readers vppon the place , and you shal se that I dyd yt of good cause . For I do not there saye that he sayth prelates , but I saye there that peraduenture he wyll saye so . And also besydes this that there y● no very great dyfference betwene these wordes , the prelates and the spirytuall rulers : the chaunge from this worde the spyrytuall rulers into this worde prelates , semed me the more mete and more proper for the mater that the pacifier speketh in that place , where he speketh of au●horite that they pretende , and obedyence that they clayme .

Howe be it rather then I wolde geue any cause of dyuysyon agaynst me , to hym that vseth to make great dyuysyons vpon smale groundes / I shall be content to geue hym his own worde agayne . And therfore I pray you good readers euery of you mende your bokis / & in the stede of prelates in that place , put in spyrytual rulers . And when you so haue done , the chaunge shal for the mater not be very great / & yet so myche as it shal be , shal more serue me then hym .

But yet to make me sory , that euer I was so farre ouersene , as to take a way his gay golden worde of spyrytuall rulers from hym , he begynneth as it were with a great thret ● sayth .

What mays●er More meaneth to chaunge these wordes spyrytuall rulers into prelates , I can not te●l . But nowe by occasyon of the wordes that mayster More hathe spoken , I wyll saye farthe● in the mater then I hadde thought to haue done .

Howe happy was I so , that I had not the grace to let his owne worde stande . For now wyll he saye farther in the mater thenne euer he hadde thoughte to haue done . And that ys ( sayth he ) this .

That I thynke veryly that if so great an ouersyght fell in to prelates and spyrytuall rulers , that they wolde take vppon them to preache heresy , that they wolde that the people sholde byleue theym therin / and to take yt to be catholycall that they preached . For who wolde preache any thynge but suche as they wold haue theyr audyence byleue .

Byleue me good readers , that thys man weneth he sayeth well fauoredly in this point / wherin he taketh such pleasure , that afterwarde fo. lxxix . he falle●h into the same agayn , and sayth thus .

Mays●er More go●th about onely to proue , that all my tale ys los●e , bycause prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they preache heresye as he taketh yt that I shol●e saye they do . And yet I sayde not so in dede . And yf I dyd say so / I sayde but trewly . For yf they dyd preache heresye , yt is certayne that they wolde loke to be byleued as I haue sayde byfore / ye and yf they wolde preache and saye that yf they preched heresye , that they wolde the people sholde not byleue theym : yet yf they dyd after preache heresye in dede , they wolde loke that the people sholde byleue theym . For they wolde saye that they were no heresyes that they preached . For who wyll confesse that he preacheth heresye .

Nowe good readers here haue I ioyned you to gether this good mannis gaye wordes in two places , wherin I perceyue he pleaseth hym selfe ryght well . But to th entent that you may se whether he haue so good cause as he weneth , consyder well his wordes and myne byfore , wheruppon he cometh to thys poynte . For he maketh as though , I wythoute occasyon geuyn of his wordes , hadde writen that the prelates pretende not to be byleued yf they wolde preache heresye . Wherin whether he saye trew or not you shall se by hys owne wordes , whyche are these .

The lyghte of grace wyll not come , as longe as the spirytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyate of god , that the people are bound to obay them & to accepte all that they do and teache , wythoute argumentes resys●ence or grudgynge .

Nowe good readers fyrst consyder well here in these wordes of his , what wysedome the man hath shewed , in makynge suche a mumblynge of chaungyng spyrytuall rulers into prelates . For when he saith here , that the spyrytuall rulers pretende that theyr authoryte is so hyghe : what doute is there but though he meane other rulers mo besyde whom he calleth no prelates : yet he meaneth prelates to / ye & prelates specyally to . And then when he sayth that the prelates & the other spyritual rul●rs pretende this or that : may I not wel say that he sayth the prelates pretend this ? yes veryly that I may . And yet in so chaungyng his worde : I chaunge it to his aduantage & not vnto myne , in that I make his odyouse sayenge myche lesse , and nothynge more . And thus fyrste you se good readers this mannys myche ouersyght in fyndynge of that faute .

Now consyder farther good readers that he sayth in those wordes , not that the spyrytual rulers , that is to saye both the prelates & all the remanaunt to , pretend theyr authorite to be hygh and so immedyatly deryued fro god , that the peple are bound to obey them in this thynge or that thynge , one , or twayne , or tenne , or twentye / but vtterly to accept and obaye not onely all theyr teachyngꝭ , but also al theyr doynges to / and neyther argue resyst nor grudge at any maner thyng , that they wold eyther teache or do .

This generall thynge he saythe . And therfore though I deale as you se so fauorably with him in my .xxvii chapyter of myn Apologye , as to dyuyde the mater , & aske whether he ment yt by theyr whole authoryte or part : I myght well vpon these wordes of his haue taken it , that he had very shamfully belyed them , & had sayde that they had pretended to haue theyr whole authoryte immediatly of god euery whit . For if I wold so haue sayd / his generall wordes wolde well haue warraunted myne . Also syth his saynge is so generall , and extendeth vtterly not onely to all theyr techyngꝭ , but also to al theyr doynges to / & sayth that they pretend , that by goddes immediate ordynaunce the people shold accepte all to gether , both al that euer they say , & all that euer they do : by how many maner thynges myght I haue confuted his saynge , and haue proued it false ?

But yet his sainge beyng such , I toke but one thyng / & that was such , as for the mater that we both specially spake of was next at hand . And therfore I sayde / that they pretende not to haue suche an authory●e that men sholde obay th●ym in all thynges / for they ptēde not to haue authorite to bynde m●n to byleue and obay them , yf they wolde preache heresyes . But they p●●ynly professe that if they so wold men shold not byleue theym nor obey them therin .

Here you se that where he sayth that he ment not that the prelates wo●de preache heresye : he speketh all besyde the purpose . For I sayde not that he eyther so sayd or so ment . But I sayde and yet saye , that in those wordes he sayde , that yf they wolde preche heresies , they do now pretende , that by the authorite whyche god hathe geuyn theym , the people were thenne therin bounden to beleue and obey theym .

And in hys so sayenge I there sayde and yet saye , that he sayth very farre vntrewe , and that they pretende yt not , but playnely pretende the contrary . And thus in this poynt that he maketh a mater without grownd or cause , and that hym selfe with his owne wordes gaue me good occasyon to wryte the thynge that I wrote : this you se good readers proued very playne .

But now consyder his other wordes , wherin he lyketh hym selfe so well , and weneth that he proueth that the spyrytuall rulers of the realme pretende , that yf they wolde preche heresye , the people were by goddes ordynaunce bounden to byleue & obey them therin , bycause they wold than say that it were none heresye . In thys poynt hys reasonynge hath I promyse you a lytell more subtylte than substaunce / and yet but symple subtylte neyther .

Fyrste as for his case , that yf all the spyrytuall rulers wolde preche heresye : yf he had ment of the spyrituall rulers of all chrystendome , I wolde haue admitted his case none other wyse , but as men put & admitte a case impossyble , to se what myghte ensew theron yf it were possyble / as saynt Poule putteth the case that yf an angel came from heuyn & preched a contrary gospell , yet the same angel shold not be byleued . But now syth he putteth it but by the spyrytuall rulers of one realme , I admytte the case as possyble / but yet as suche a case , as I truste in god this good man shall se the skye fall fyrste and cache larkes ere it happen , though it maye be lykely inough to happen in some one or twayne , or some fewe● agaynste whome the remanaunt shall preche and teche the trouth .

But now sayth thys good man thus . If it so happened in them all : than wolde they all pretende , that by theyr authoryte gyuen them of god , the people were bounden therin to byleue and obaye theym . For they wolde than saye that theyr heresyes were none heresyes .

I am content lo to graunte hym all thys / and I aske hym now what than ? For all thys good readers proueth ( you se very well ) no more , but that yf that case happened that they also preched , they wolde thanne al so pretende . But all this proueth neuer a whyt , that the spyrytuall rulers eyther now do , or at any tyme haue done , pretended theyr authoryte such . Now consyder than for what purpose he speketh of suche pretendyng . He sayeth ( you wote well ) theyr pretendynge of theyr authoryte to be so great , that they people shold obay them without argument , grudge , or contradiccyon in all that euer they eyther say or do . This he layth I say for so sore a cause of this diuision , which he maketh in his boke , that he sayth the lyght of grace wyl not come to ceace it , tyll they ceace so to pretende .

And therfore good readers syth thys is the thynge that he sayth , and the purpose that he sayth it for , makyng it a cause of dyuysyon present : how can he maynteyne hys sayenge with a case fayned , wherby it may be that they wyll so pretende hereafter / where as euer hytherto hym selfe sayth not naye , but that they bothe haue pretended and yet pretende the contrary ? Can he mayntayne that the temporalty is at dyuision wyth the spyrytualty now all redy , bycause it maye peraduenture happe here after by a farre fet possybylyte , that they maye than , no man woteth whan , pretende peraduenture a thynge , wherof they presentely pretende the contrary / and protest also that yf the case sholde so mysse happe hereafter , they desyre now for than that no man sholde therin than byleue theym ? Saw you euer good read●rs any man with suche a symple subtyltye , caste all his mater in the dust so shamfully ?

Now where he sayth to mayn●ayne hys mater here withall , that it is not to suppose the spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende that such authoryte as they haue of the graunte of prynces , is immedyately of god : I say that therin he sayth trouth , and that I suppose that they wyll not . But yet let hym selfe loke wel in his own boke of diuision , & he shall fynde that hym selfe sayth the contrary there , of that he now sayth here / and sheweth some thynges whiche he bothe sayth that they haue but by the meane of prynces and the good mynde of the people , and yet sayth also that they pretende to haue the same thynges immedyately of god . As for ensample both theyr a●thoryte to haue the tenth part for tythe , and the thynge● whyche they enioy by the name of the lybertyes of the chyrch , wherby theyr persons be in many thynges pryuyledged in this realme byfore the person of a say man . These thynges hym selfe sayth that they haue but by a meane and not immedyately of god . And yet he sayth in this same xx . chapyter , that the thynges whych they call the lybertyes of the chyrch , they pretende to haue immedyately of god / and for all that he sayth now that it is not to suppose that they wyll pretende so . And thus you maye se good readers , that for the defence of thys place , he is dreuyn to a shrewde narow streyte , whan to defende one fawte he is fayne to make twayne .

Now where as he saith I myght haue satysfyed my selfe wel inough , and that the letter of his wordes were playne : you se that in the rehersynge agayne of hys own wordes fo. lxxx , he is fayne to suppresse & stele away these hys owne generall wordes , all that they do or teche , to make hys wordis seme playne . For as you se , they standynge styll , his wordes are playne agaynst hym . For hym selfe now confesseth that they pretende not to do by authoryte immedyate fro god , suche thynges as they do by authoryte gyuen them by prynces .

But bycause I wold fayne fully satysfye hym : I shall now shew you that with his new declaringe that his wordes were well inough , he hath made his mater out of all measure wurse .

For now rede his wordes agayne fo. lxxx . & th●re you shall se that he saith that he meneth onely of such authoryte as the spirituall rulers pret●̄de to haue imm●diately of god . And yet after he declareth it ferther & better on the secunde syde of the same lefe in the .xiiii. lyne , that he meneth onely such authoryte , not as they pretende to haue , but as they haue in dede immediately of god . And to th entent men myghte se that he meneth not of authorite falsely pretended , but truely had immediatly of god , he putteth for the sample theyr authoryte in ministracyon of the sacramentes .

Thys is hys owne exposicyon of his owne wordes , whyche he wolde haue taken for so playne , that he is angry with me that I could not spye it , and so satysfye my selfe before .

Well go to now : let vs reherse his owne wordes agayne as hym selfe for his owne aduauntage folio .lxxx. reherseth them , & let vs plant in hys owne exposicion with them , to make his sentence the more clere / & than shal we se to what good conclusion he bryngeth all in conclusyon . For than commeth hys whole tale to thys .

As longe as the spyrytuall rulers wyll pretende , that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god , in suche thynges as they haue theyr authoryte immedyately of god in dede , ( as in the minystracyon of the sacramentes and such other thynges lyke ) that the people are bounden to obay them wythout argument or resystence : so long the lyght of grace wyll not appere .

Now good readers here be now hys owne wordes wyth hys owne exposycion therin . And how lyke you them now ? For now the sentence hath he brought at last with myche wurke to none other , but that the lyghte of grace wyll not appere , as longe as the spyrytuall rulers pretende to be obayed and not resysted in the mynystracyon of the sacramentes & suche other thyngꝭ lyke , bycause they haue theyr authoryte therin immedyately of god in dede . But than on the tother syde , whan so euer they wyll not pretende theyr authoryte so hygh therin , nor so immedyately deryued of god , as to be obayed therin , but wyll be content that men grudge and argue and resyste them therin , and pull them from the awter , and suffre them to mynyster no sacramentes no● any such other thyngꝭ lyke : than shal by thys good mannes newe declaracyon the light of grace appere by and by . Hath not thys pacyfyer here good readers , wyth myche laboure at last brought thys mater to a wyse conclusyon●

If he wyll nowe go fro thys agayne , and put in his other generall wordes agayne / whyche for his aduauntage he lefte out in that place : than is all gone agayne that he goe●h aboute / and all myne answere made ( as I haue shewed you ) good , and all his owne wordes nought .

In the leaf also● lxxxi . these are hys wordes .

where I saye that as longe as the spyrytuall ruler● wyll pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued of god , that the people are bounde to obaye them wythout argument or resystence &c. By these wordes I confesse that they haue authoryte immedyately deryued fro god . But as I sayd before in the seuenth chapyter , mayster Mor● hath a ryght greate and a ryght inuentyue wytte , wherby he can lyghtly tnrne a sentence after hy● appetyte . And so he doth here &c.

What hygh wytte or inuentyue I haue to turne a sentence , let the reders iudge . But surely the heygth of my wyt can not reche so hygh , as to perceyue in those wordes of his , the sentence that hym selfe turneth them to / nor I trow no mannes els / tyll these wordes , They haue authoryte , and these wordes , They pretende to haue authoryte , be bothe one thynge , whyche they were neuer yet . And therfore before his confession that he now maketh here new : I myght than well take that excepcion which I haue brought there , to a litle better effect , than doth his here , whiche wyth all hys wrestelynge and al hys new declaracyons , bryngeth all togyther euer the lenger vnto the wurse conclusyon .

For nowe to colour this his ouersyght with all , he telleth vs whiche maner of pretences he ment in those wordis , which he wold here so fayne defende . And than in stede of pretendynge to be by goddes ordynaunce byleued & obayed in all thyngꝭ as well wordes as dedes , he bryngeth forth here a few amountyng in a some totall to the infynyte nomber of foure .

The fyrst is , that the order and disposicyon of the thynges that are to be disposed of the chyrch , be to be disposed by the prestes : whyche poynt to put as for a mater that hath made dyuysyon bytwene theym and vs , is a poynt of smal reason as farre as my reason can geue me . For I remember not of any varyaunce that euer arose bytwene them & vs for that poynt .

The secunde is , that all chrysten prynces must subdue theyr execucions to bysshoppes , & not to preferre them aboue them . I can not tell you whyther there be any suche lawe made or not . But I can tell you well that though there be , this poynt wyll not serue his purpose the value of a blew poynt . For I am sure he neuer sawe in hys dayes any bysshoppe in thys realme , vse that pretence agaynst the kynge , or that euer there arose any diuisyon theruppon .

The thyrde is , that no charge shold be set vppon clerkes by laye power . I neuer herde yet any dyuision ryse vppon thys poynt in my dayes / nor he neyther in his I dare saye . For I neuer saw the day yet nor he neither , but that whan any nede of the kyng & the realm requyred it , they haue euer more ben redy to set taxes vpon them selfe , as lyberally and as largely as any man well myght wyth any good reason requyre .

The fourth is he sayth , that yf a seculare iudge be neglygent in doyng of iustyce , that thanne after monicion to amende it geuen to the iudge , yf he wyl not , than the spyrytuall iudge may compel hym to it , or ellys supply his ●ome and here the cause .

If I shold loke now for th●se .iiii. lawes , it myght p●raduenture happen that I sholde fynde , that thys man had mysse taken some of them , as well as he hath mysse vnderstonden some of the other that he hath spoken of before . But syth that I neuer knewe grudge or diuisyon ryse here vppon any of them , me nedeth neuer to loke more for the mater . For sith this man neuer saw that any spyrituall iudge hath interprysed , in defawt of iustyce to geue any such monicion , or to supplye the rome : were that law neuer so vnreasonable , yet to say that vpon that lawe the temporaltye hath here conceyued such grudge as it hath ben a cause of diuisyon , this pacifier of diuisyon may be mych ashamed that euer he deuysed it . For I dare say that as well this fourthe cause , as many of all his other be suche , as the people neuer neyther talked of nor thoughte vppon / nor before his own boke , had neu●r redde nor herde of . And therfore by the puttynge in of such thynges : euery chyld as I sayd in myne apologye may sone perceyue that his bokes labour & entende not to quenche but rather to kyndle diuisyon .

And therfore verely with his seyenge here euyn in the ende and conclusyon suche causes of his dyuisyon , whych causes but by hym selfe the peple neuer herde of : I maye well saye onys agayne good readers , is not this gere by this good pacyfyer brought vnto a wyse conclusyon ?

To those wordes wryten in myn apology the .169 . leaf , this good man answereth thus .

And now to thys conclusyon of mayster More I wyll say thus , that I beseche almyghty god , that the ende of all these maters may come to thys conclusyon , that the very groundely causes of these dyuisyons , that now be not onely in thys realme , but also in maner through all chrysten realmes , maye come to perfite knowledge . For surely I do not take it , that they began eyther by heresyes , or apostasyes as mayster More in his apology meaneth that they ●●lde do .

Here you may se good readers that this good man wold be loth that it shold appere , that the diuision , parel , & harme haue any where sprongen vpon heresies begon & set forth by false apostatase , wedded freres & monkes , as clerely as it is knowen that by th occasion therof , there haue ben slayn in Almain within these very fewe yeres , aboue .lxxx. M. persons in one somer & yet synnys among the Swychis whan zuynglius was slayne , many thousandes killed to / and the warre bygonne by the heretykes , and the lashe by goddis great goodnes layed in theyr own neckys / as falsely as Fryth bylyeth the catholykes , and agaynst the playne and open knowen trouth , wolde wyth shame inough to hym self make men wene that the catholikes began the warre .

But than goth he ferther & saith . And yf mayster More wyll nedyly endeuour hym selfe to hyde the truth therin , a● it semeth he hath done in this chapiter , and dyuerse other places of his apologye , by kepynge secrete suche abusyons and pretences , as in my conscyence haue ben moste pryncypall causes of thys dyuysyon , wherof parte be recyted in the sayd t●eatyce , and part in thys answere but not all .

Of these there had nede in dede to be mo , & some more trew , and some of a lytell more substaunce to , than be the most parte of these that this good man hath layed forth yet .

Now here he sayeth that I kepe secrete such abusyons and pretences as be the pryncypall causes of the dyuysyon , wherof hym selfe hath he sayth shewed some : eyther he meaneth that those which I kept secrete , be those that hym selfe hath wryten , or other besyde theym . If he meane other : then eyther hym self knoweth theym or not . If he knowe them not : how knoweth he that I know them , or that there be any suche at all ? If hym selfe knowe theym and shewe them not : then he hydeth theym and kepeth theym secret hym self as wel as I. Nowe yf he meane but those that hym selfe hath wryten : how can I kepe those secrete that he hath writen ? Can I bothe gather vppe all hys bokes and go hyde theym , and also make them that haue redde them go vnreade them agayne , or forgete what they haue redde .

But now after this , lyke wyse as he is wonte when reason fayleth hym to fal to preachyng : so here , bycause reason faileth hym , he falleth to prayenge / and therin thus he sayth .

I beseche almighty god that he haue no power to do yt , but that the trouth maye come to fyghte therin , tho●gh he resyste yt all that he can . For yf yt were knowen / and the fautes charytably reformed : all these dyuysyons wolde shortely haue an ende .

Nay perdye , this man seeth well ynought that though the fautis of the spyrytualtye were neuer so fully reformed , yet could not all that suffyse to brynge all dyuysyons to an ende , but yf one thyng be done / whych wyl neuer be done , wherof ( which he forgeteth ) I gaue hym warnynge in the .116 . leaf of myne Apologye in these wordes .

But now if thys pacyfyer to cease and quenche thys dyuysyon , coulde fynde the meanes to make all the whole clergye good : yet for all that , syth he layeth for causes of this dyuysyon that some men saye thys by the clergye , and some men saye by them that / were all the clergye neuer so good in dede , and serued god neuer so wel , this diuisyon by his own tale , yet could not for all that cease / except he coulde prouyde farther , that no pytuouse pacyfyer sholde in lamentynge of dyuysyon , putte forthe a boke and saye , that some lay men say that some of the clergye be noughte , and loue theyre ease and theyr welth / and that some saye that those that seme best and take moste labour and payne , be but hypocrytes for all that , and serue god but for vayne glorye to gete theym selfe laude and prayse amonge the people .

Also yf defautes sholde be charyble reformed , as this man sayth he wolde haue theym : yt wolde be nede then to sette a lytle more charytable folke aboute yt , then those haue ben , that haue begyled thys good man wyth euyll counsayle in hys bookys / and haue made hym vnder pretexte of pacyfyenge dyuysyon , sette forthe and encrease dyuysyon , wyth dyuysynge and spredynge abrode causes of murmure and grndge , makynge in some of them an elephant of a gnat , and for olde grudges bryngynge forth some suche , as the people neuer had herd of tyll they redde his bokis and some of the very worst , whyche were most effectuall causes yf they were trewe , bryngyng forth by hepes wyth a fygure of some say , and very playn lyes in dede . Is this the way good readers for a pacifyer to make peace wyth , and put awaye dyuysyons ?

And nowe hymselfe handelynge the mater thus / he taketh of his charyte great thought , leste I go about to hynder hys holy purpose . And therfore sayth .

I doute me very sore , that maister more goeth about rather to marre all , then to endeuoyr hym selfe to make all well .

Whyche be the lykelyheddes now good reders that lede this good man , into this gret fere ? Bycause I make open the shrewde mynde of hys demure countenaunce , and the harmful intent and purpose of his holy holesome wordes . Bycause I wolde haue the temporaltye and the spyrytualtye as the bodye and the soule of one man , loue well to gether and agree and neyther of theym be glad to here euyll of other , nor to geue eare to false sedycyouse slaunder , but the good folke of eyther parte , drawe bothe by one lyne , accordynge to both the law is , to represse and kepe vnder the bad / and among other vyces , specyall suche pestylent heresyes , as elles wolde oppresse the catholyque fayth , & prouoke the dyspleasure of god , and fyrste sow deuysyon , and afterwarde rere rebellyon in the realme , as they haue done byfore thys tyme both here and in other places / and that I to thys entent geue myne aduyce to kepe styll those good lawes that bothe thys realme and all the corps of chrystendome haue long vsed and approued . Bycause I thus do so : therfore this good man fereth that I go about to marre all .

But whyle his bokes go aboute on the tother syde , to make the world wene , that heresyes be no causes of dyuysyon / and to haue heretyques lyue in the lesse fere , wyth many malycyouse some sayes falsely slaundereth the ordynaryes , of cruell wrong full handelyng of the peple , to dryue them by drede or by shame or other tedyouse besynes , to sette heretyques alone / and go aboute wyth balde reasons the beste not worthe a ryshe , to put away the good lawes that haue ben made agaynst theym / & vnder colour of a feruour to the faith exhorte men to go wynne the holy land / and in the meane whyle yet wyth suche wyly wayes , labour wyth heretyques , to fyll vp the ●tretes at home , & by the decay of the crysten catholyke fayth , prouoke the wrath of god vpon al our heddes , whych our lord rather turne vpon theyrs that so wold haue it : his bokes besyly goyng about this gere , hym 〈◊〉 goeth about ( ye se well pe●dye ) to make all thynge euyll .

But now wyll I fyrste fynyshe vp his .xx. chapiter , wherin he goeth forwarde thus .

And in thye chapyter mayster More layth dyuer● other obieccyons to proue the sayde letter vnreasonable , whych were very tedyouse to reherse at length . And therfore I shall as shortely as I can / touch● some of theym .

Ye knowe well ynough why they be tedyouse to reherse . Surely bycause they be very tedyouse to answere . But where he sayth he wil reherse some of them : he begynneth first to shew that I had no cause to doute of his wordes wherin he sayth that the spyrytuall rulers pretende theyr authorytye to be so hygh & so immediately deryued from god &c. I hadde sayth he no cause to doute of what authoryte he ment . For he sayth that his wordes were playn ynough , that he meaneth onely of suche authoryties , as they pretende to haue immedyately from god .

To this I say playnly , that than are his wordes playne false .

For hys wordes be , that they pretende that theyr authoryte is so hygh and so immedyately deryued from god , that the people are bounde to obay them and to accept all that they do and teache , wythout argument resystence or grudge .

Now knoweth euery man very wel that they do not pretende to haue authoryte immedyately from god , to do all thynge that they now lawfully do and may do , in whyche the people are now bounde to accept and obey them . For as I sayde in myne apologye , in many suche thynges they pretende & claym theyr authoryte deryued from prynces . And therfore ye se that and he labour about yt thys .vii. yeres : he can neuer defende his wordes , but that I answered hym trewly / & with the necessarye dystynccyon that I there made , answered euery parte . And this hym self seeth wel inough / and therfore in the .lxxx. leaf in the begynnynge of the seconde syde , where he reherseth hys wordes agayne , he leueth out these wordes of his owne . and to accepte all that they do and teache .

Vppon whyche wordes the poynte of the mater hangeth . And therfore here you se nowe , that where as in the begynnynge of this chapyter , he wolde make yt seme that I stele two or thre wordes of hys , whyche I neyther dyd nor neded for any strength that was in them : here was hym selfe fayne to stele awaye hys owne wordes , to begyle the reader vppon the readyng of the place , and make hym passe ouer hys faute for the whyle vnmarked .

And thus good reader you se , that to saue his owne wordes vp ryghte , and to impugne myne : in those two seuys .lxxx. & .lxxxi. he bestowed his labour in vayne .

But then goeth he farther & toucheth these wordes of myne Apololye , wryten in my sayde .xxvii. chapyter fo. 165.

Surely in suche thynges as the whole clergy of cristendome teacheth & ordereth in spyrytuall thynges , as be dyu●rse of those lawes which this pacyfyer in some places of this boke toucheth , beynge made agaynste heretyques / and all be yt that they be & longe haue bene thorowe the whole corps of crystendome both temporaltye and spyrytualtye , by longe vsage and custome ratyfyed agreed and confyrmyd , yet he layeth some lacke in theym callynge theym very sore / in those thynges I saye , that syth I nothynge doute in my mynde / but in that congregacyon to goddes honour gracyousely gathered to gether , the good assystence of the spyryte of god is accordynge to Chrystes promyse as veryly present and assystente as it was wyth his blessed apostles , men oughte wyth reuerence and wythout resystence , grudge , or argumentes to receyue them . And yf a prouyncyall counsayle erre / there are in Chrystes chyrche ordynarye wayes to reforme yt . But in suche thynges as any spyrytuall gouernours after a lawfull order and forme , dyuyse for the spyrytual weale of theyr soules that are in theyre charge , and whyche thynges are such as good folke may soon perceyue them for good / in these thinges at the leste wyse sholde the good not geue eare to the badde folke and frowarde , that agaynst the beste thynge that can be deuysed can neuer lacke a fonde frowarde argument .

To these wordes this good man answereth me thus .

Then to shew my mynde in some thynges that mayster More hathe touched yet farther in the sayde chapiter : I wyl fyrst agree wyth mayster More / that in suche thynges as the hole clergye of crystendome teacheth and ordreth in syrytuall thynges / and why the of longe tyme haue ben by longe vsage and custome thorough the hole corps of crystendome spyrytualtye and temporaltye , ratyfyed agreed and confyrmed , ought wyth reuerence to be receyued : but yet yf the same thynges thorough longe contynuance and thorough abusions that ryse by occasyon of them , proue hurtefull & ouer greuous to the peple to bere ● they may the people g●udge and complayne lawfully to theyr superyours / and desyre that they maye be reformed / as lawfully as they may do to haue temporal● lawes reformed when nede requyreth .

As vnto thys , bycause he ys so gentle to agree with me , I shall as gently agre wyth hym agayne / but yet he getteth nought therby . For sith the lawes agaynste whyche he wryteth , made for the correccyon of heretyques , as I haue in the . xv.xvi . and .xvii. chapyter playnely proued agaynste hym , and reproued his obieccyons therin , be good and very reasonable / and that abusyons ( by occasyon wherof he wold make yt now seme , that in long contynuaunce they become hurtfull ) he proueth not one in this worlde , but by false slaunderouse some sayes surmysed agaynst the ordynaryes , and dyuers tymes founde false byfore the kynges honorable counsayle : this answere here of his , helpeth nothyng his mater .

Then goeth he ●arther and sayth vn thys wyse .

I wyll also agre that in the congregacyon of the clergye , to goddes honour gracyously gathered to gether : the good assystence of the spyryte of god , accordynge to Chrys●es promyse / wyll be as veryly present and assystente wyth them● as yt was wyth hys blessed apos●les / yf they order them selfe in mekenesse and charyte and put all theyr truste in g●d , as the apostles dyd . But yf they wyl trust 〈◊〉 theyr own wyt and in worldly polycye : then may they lyghtly lose the spyryte of god . And whether yt were so at the makynge of the lawes , which mays●er More speketh of concernynge heresye or not , I can not tel● but this wyll I say , that yf they were not go●d and reasonable in them selfe at the fyrs●e makyng , that they were neuer made by the assystence of the spyryt of god . And surely I can not then se , how the vsage and longe contynuaunce of them can ratyfye or confyrme them . For as yt is of an euyll custome , that the lenger yt is vsed , the greater is the offence : so i● yt of an euyll lawe . And lyke as an euyll custome ys to be put awaye , so yt is of an euyll lawe .

Of what strength the generall counsayles be , & whether we may in any of theem by laufulorder gadered togeder , put any diffydence or mystrust / and yf we may then in what maner thinges , and in what wise they bynd , & whom , & how long : I shal not nede for thys mater to dyspute wyth this good man . And all his doute concernynge the sayd lawes , whyther they be reasonable or not , and whether the contynuaunce of them be good or not : in all these thynges haue I so confuted thys good man all redye , that these wordes of hys can serue of noughte . But yet to make it seme that he sa●d some what / and that no lawe of the chyrche whyche he hath here impugned , made agaynst heretyques , was eyther ratyfyed or approued in thys realme : ye shall heare how properlyly he proueth . Lo good readers ●hese are his wordes .

And the lawee affermed by vsage and agremente of the people be the lawes of ●astynge and kepynge of ●●lydayes , and suche other as the people of theyr free agremente accepte and agree vnto : but these lawes made for punyshement of heresyes were neuer agreed by a comen assente of the people , but that some partyculare persons / wherof some haue ben gyltye / and some peraduenture not gyltye / haue ben punyshed the●by ryghte sore agaynste theyr wylles . And that can not be a confyrmacyon of them that so agree against theyr wyl . But as to them that do the correccyon , yt y● a confyrmacyon : for they do it with theyr good wyll . And though that correccyon were a ●uffycyent confyrmacyon , as agaynst theym that be so punyshed : yet yt can not be a confyrmacyon to make the lawe approued for all the resydue of the people .

I can not se therfore that any ratyfyeng , agreyng , or confyrmynge of the people can be pr●u●d in tho lawes , concernynge the correccyon for heresye :

Dyd euer any man good readers here suche a nother reason as thys is ? He denyeth not but that the suyle ex officio , and the order taken in the generall counsayle , and the other farther procedynges agayns●e heretyques , accordynge to the comen receyued spyrytuall lawes , haue bene vsually longe accustom●d in thys realme / & by the princes of the same & generally by all the people by comen vsage accepted / and ouer that , by playn parlyament lawes and orders made for all temporall offycers to assyste the ordynaryes therin , and to put the offenders in execucyon ther upon and knowynge wel all thys , be dyssymuleth yt euery whytte , & sayth not one worde therto / but argueth that yt was neuer ratyfyed in thys realme , bycause the heretykes that are for h●resye punyshed , be burned agaynste theyre wyll , and agree not them selfe therto . This reason wyl I neuer labour to confute . For if any man be so mad to lyke yt , I were almoste as madde as he yf I wolde reason wyth hym .

After this he resorteth agayne to the vnreasonablenes of the lawes / and proueth theym vnreasonable , by the sentence of hys owne conceyte . For these are his wordes .

And then whether the lawes in them self be good & indyfferent or not , I wyll remytte the iugement in that behalfe to theym that haue authoryte . But to shew my conceyte therin , I shall wyth good wyll euen as my conscyence meueth me to / & that is , that I coulde neuer se , that yt was reasonable to be accepted as a lawe / that a man shulde be accused & knowe not his acuser . And that yt is yet more vnreasonable that a man shuld be condempned / and know not the the wytnesse that condemned hym . Also that a man vpon suspeccyon shuld be dryuen to make his purgacyon at the wyll of the ordinary , or be accursed : Or that a periured wytnesse shulde condempne hym , that he had clered afore : That a greate offender and a le●se offender shulde haue one lyke punysshement , yf they renunced : or be a lyke arrested and put in pryson : I neuer saw no indysferencye in it .

Now good readers as for the conceyte that the good conscience of this man hath conceiued , is of very trowth but euyn a very pore conceyte / as in the sayed chapyters the .xv. the .xvi. and the .xvii. euery man maye soone perceyue .

How be it in the laste poynt that he fyndeth so great a fawte , that a greater offender and a lesse off●der , sholde haue one lyke punysshement , thys man loked not well about hym whan he wrote that worde . For whan the thynge is well loked on / the weight of his reason wyll fall vppon the wronge syde , and all agayns●e hys mynde . For where so euer a greater offender and a lesse offender be bothe punysshed alyke : yf the greater offender haue no more payne than the lesse hath deserued , there is the order some what lesse sharpe than it sholde be / but yet not vnryghtuouse . For yf it were , than were the lawes of this realme vnlawfull , that hange vppe hym that doeth but robbe a man , as well as hym that robbeth hym and kylleth hym to . Now so is it in the spyrituall law , that whan two do both renounce theyr heresye , and abiure and bere faggottes bothe , yf the tone hylde .x. heresyes and the tother but twayne , the greater offender hath no more payne than the lesse deserueth . And therfore yf this man in that case complayne : thys complaynt ( as I sayd ) turneth vn the tother syde / and fyndeth the fawte in that , that whe●● the lesse offender bereth one faggot , the greater bereth not fyue , yf theyr bodyes be lyke of strength .

How ●e it good readers all thys ta●e of hys is to no purpose at all . For in the spyrytuall law , they waye the offences / and consyder the cyrcumstaunces , and enioyne the penaunce after the weygth or grauyte of the trespas / and for emprysonynge vse to put no man to it , but where good reason wolde not suffre hym walke abrode . And therfore I suppose / that whan the man was wrytynge thys / hys wytle was walkynge towarde the holy lande . For yf he wold● saye that he meneth by the lesse offender and the more offender , suche twayne as abiure bothe , and bere fa●ottes bothe , wh●re the tone was worthy and the tother not worthy at all : I saye that neyther his wordes wyll mayntayne any such menyng ( for he speketh generally of the lesse off●der & the more ) nor also he proueth none suche but by his slaunderouse some sayes , whyche haue ben playne proued false .

Than goeth he ferther and knytteth vppe all the chapyter wyth this goodly conclusyon .

And yf any man wyll saye that these reasons wyll gyue a boldenesse t● heretykes : trewly I wyll not ●ully make answere therto . But thys wyll I saye , that I thynke veryly that they wyll gyue a boldenesse to trewth and teew men . And veryly I haue herd say , that it were better to suffre an offender g● vnpunyshed , than to punyshe hym vnryghtuo●sely and agaynst dew order of iustyce .

Marke good reders here for our lordes sake , what maner of reason thys is . The thynge that hym selfe very well perceyueth to be the very weyght and pyth of all the mater , & therfore at laste obiecteth it agaynste hym selfe , as a thynge that had nede to be soyled , what answere doeth he make vnto it ? He sayth he wyll not answere it fully . In fayth that is spoken very dully : well , syth so greate weyghte hangeth on it , yf he wolde not answere it fully , he sholde haue answered at the leste wyse halfe . If not halfe , a fourth part yet , or a fyfth parte at the lest . For thys that he sayth , answereth no parte at all . For two thynges he sayth / one that though he can not saye naye , but that his reasons yf they be folowed , shall gyue a boldenesse to heretikes : yet he thynketh they shall also gyue boldenesse to trowth and trew men . And by my trowth I thynke weryly vn the tother syde , that yf heretykes haue boldenesse gyuen them , and ( as they therby soone shall ) take corage and myche encreace , they shall make the trowth shrynke , and many trew men aferde . And yf the geuynge boldnes to falsed , shall geue boldenesse to trouth / assaye than and geue boldenesse / and than loke whyther trewe men shall wax the bolder by it .

The secunde thynge that he saith is thys , whyche yet he dothe not afferme but sayth he hath herd it sayd , that it were better to suffre an offender go vnpunysshed , than punyshe hym vnrightuousely and agaynst dew order of iustyce .

Thys were somewhat pretely sayd , yf thys good man had proued that heretykes myght not be punyshed by those lawes , but vnryghtuousely and agaynst the order of iustice . But than how hath he proued that ? By no meane in thys world but twayne . The tone , that it is not ryghtuouse nor indyfferente , that a greater offender and a lesse offender sholde be punyshed , emprisoned , or arrested lyke / whych vnreasonable reason oppugneth playnely in all crimynall causes almost , all the lawes of thys realme and yet helpeth not hys mater , but impayreth it mych , as a lytell here before I haue well & clerely proued .

His other reason is his generall reason that is his whole grounde , wher vppon he b●yldeth agaynst all those lawes all his whole mater / that is to wytte , that by those lawes whyche are made for punysshement of heretykes , it may somtyme fortune that a man may be punysshed whyche is no heretyke in d●de .

Now is thys reason so vnreasonable to be layed for a reason to ●ake awaye a lawe , that yf it were admytted for reason , it could suffer neyther in thys realme , nor in any realme els any lawe stand in this world , that all the wyttes in this world coulde imagyne or deuyse , for any maner punysshement of vngracyouse folke . And albe it that of such lawes some maye be reformed from the wurse vnto the better / though neuer fully to suche poynt , but that an innocent may take harme : yet both by r●ason and experyence it appereth playnely , that these lawes whyche he wolde haue chaunged and made more easy , can neuer haue any good chaunge , but by makynge them more streygth .

And thus hath this good man soreouersene hym selfe , more I trowe than .xx. tymes in hys .xx. chapyter .

The .xxi. chapyter .

IN hys .xxi. chapyter begynnynge in the .lxxxiiii. leaf , bycause I sayd in myne apologye that there be fewe partes in his boke of diuysyon , that shall yf they be well consydered , appere so good at length , as they seme to some men at the fyrste syght and at superfycyall readynge : he prouoketh me to shew what other fawtes I fynde therin . And than to prycke me forwarde , he bryngeth forth two or thre thynges , whych he sayeth it semeth moste lykely that I shold meane . But wherfore it shold be moost lykely that I sholde meane those thynges / therof sheweth he no thynge / but leueth folke occasyon to thynke , that hys owne mynde mysgea●th hym in those thynges . For me hath he neuer herd make any busynes of them .

And afterwarde in the leaf .91 . agayne he prouoketh me to the same . And there he recyteth how many chapyters of his I medle not withall / wherin he myghte haue made a shorter worke yf he wolde haue let them stande that I towched not / and haue spoken of them onely that I towched . For they were very few , as he that was very vnwyllynge to haue towched any one at all , saue for the mych euyll that couertely was cloked in them , And for the withdrawynge of that cloke that men myght the better se what it ment : I towched the fyrste chapyter for a shew , and the .vii , and the .viii , for that they labored to the great decay of the catholike fayth , to put awaye or chaunge in to wurse the moste specyall good lawys , bothe of the whole chyrche and of this realm , that haue bene made and obserued longe for the preseruacyon therof . And the fyrst chapiter was in effecte nothynge ellys , but by false slaunderouse surmyses agaynst the ordynarys ( as though they myshandeled men for heresye ) a shrewde preparatiue to it . And therfore leuynge his other tryfles alone : I answered in effecte onely these , of whych so mych harme myght growe . whych thyngꝭ yf they had ben out of his boke , all the remanaunt good and bad togyther , sholde haue gone forth for me / and therfore yet so shall they : For I purpose not to embuse my selfe with confutynge of euery fawte that I fynd in euery mannes boke . I sholde haue than ouer mych a do .

Nor I wyll not dysprayse or depraue any thyng that I thynke good eyther in his boke or in any mannes ellys . And therfore I haue in myne apology sayd expressely , that he saith some thynges wel . But for as mych as there be many thynges nought to : I geue therfore the reader warnyng not to walke awaye with theym ouer hastely , but rede them with iudgement and aduise them well / and not byleue euery spyryt , but proue whyther it be of god or not / and that that is good take / and that that is euyll , lette it go to the deuyll .

I well allow therfore and lyke not a lytell the great good mynde of Salem toward the vaynquysshyng of the great turke / and conquerynge of the holy lande , wherin he spendeth the tother thre chapiters of his boke . But I mysse lyke mych agayn , that as he wold dylate the fayth , by force of sworde in farre cuntres hense : so he laboreth to chaunge and take away the good & holsome lawes , wherby the fayth is preserued here at home .

I lyke also meruelousely well , that suche poyntes of the catholyke fayth as heretykes nowe labour to destroye , as prayenge to sayntes , pylgrymage , and purgatory , & the sacramentes , and specyally the blessed sacrament of the awter , wherof in the lxxxvi . leaf he speketh so well , that as helpe me god it dyde me good to rede it : this I saye lyketh me meruelousely well , that the ryght fayth of these poyntes he confesseth so well and so fully for his owne person . But the better opynyon that I haue of his owne person therin , the more sory am I to se , that his bookes are by some shrewde counsayle handeled in such wyse , as if they were folowed / wolde make the faythe decaye and peryshe in many other folke . Thys is the greate thynge that in his bokes greueth me .

For as for the poynt that he speketh of in the leaf . 91 , of that that the prestes shold eate no flesshe fro quinquagesime to Easter : I take it for a mater as small as he dothe I. But than he asketh me wherfore in the .xxxi. chapiter of myne apology begynnyng in the .175 . leaf , I make so greate a mater of it . Who so lys●e to reade the chapyter , shall se that I wrote it not all in vayne , nor shewe my selfe vnwyllynge that the prestis sholde do it neyther , though they be not bounden to it . But the lesse that the weyghte of the mater was / the more cause this man gaue me to speke therof . For the more was he to blame to put that and other suche smal maters as that is , for causes of so great a diuisyon , as he surmyseth that this is . This was lo the cause that made me to speke therof . whych cause this man gaue hym selfe / and therfore nedeth not to meruayle as he doth , wherfore I spake therof .

And therfore thus haue I good readers now replyed to euery chapyter of his boke by row , saue onely the last thre which go about a good viage into the holy lande , a great way farre of fro me . And I haue not leped to & fro , now forwarde , now bakward , in such maner as he playeth in his answere made vnto me , without eyther order kepte or cause apperynge wherfore , saue onely the cause that euery man may spye , that he wold not haue it sene what places he lefte vntowched . Which is in a maner the moste parte of all togyther , that in my boke towched the thre chapyters of his . And I haue on the tother syde not lefte any one pyece vnproued , that my selfe spake of before , or that any thynge perteyned vnto me .

And therfore where as in the begynnyng of the .xxii. chapyter , Symkyn Salem geueth hys sentence vppon the sayde answere to the sayde apologye , and alloweth the sayd answere well : me thynketh that yf he consydered not onely how myche he hath lefte vnanswered , & how mych of his owne wordes vndefended , whyche he nothynge hath towched at all / but ouer that how febly he hath defended those thynges that he hath towched here : Salem beynge indyfferent , had ben like to haue allowed it but a lytell .

For settynge asyde for the whyle all the remanaunt , yf he go but to the very pryncypal poynt alone , wherin he laboreth to chaunge and put awaye those good lawes / the chaunge wherof ( suche as he deuyseth ) the decaye of the catholyke fayth and the encreace of heresyes wolde folowe : in that poynt alone , I say we laye agaynst hym , the comen consent of this realm . And he layeth his own reason agaynst it . We laye agaynste hym the consent of the generall counsayle . And agaynst this he layeth his owne reason . We lay agaynst hym the generall approbacion of all chrysten realmes . And agaynst this he layeth his own reason . And what is hys owne irrefragable reason that he layth agaynst all this ? Surely no more as you se , but that by those lawes an innocent may sometyme take wrong . Agaynste this reason we lay hym , that yf this reason sholde stande , than agaynst malefactours there could no law stande . We laye agaynst it also that by his deuyces yf they were folowed , by the encreace of heresyes many innocentes must nedes take mych more wronge .

To thys answereth he , that he wyll not answere that . And nowe when Salem seeth that he can not answere that , & seeth that al the weigth of the mater hangeth vpon that : than Sym Salem geueth sentence that he hath answered very well . But surely yf suche answeryng be well / I wote not whyche way a man myght answere yll

And therfore where as Symkyn Salem sayth , that yf this good man wyll , he wyll cause a frende of hys answere all the remanaunt : he may do this good man a myche more frendly tourne , yf he make hys frende answere this better fyrst , that this good man hath answered allredy . How be yt yf they lyste thus to geue ouer thys , and assaye what they can saye better to any other pyece : let theym a goddes name hardely go to for me . And yf they saye any thynge metely to the mater , I wyll put no frende to payne to make them answere / but at leasure conuenient shal answere them my selfe . And where they say well / I wyll not let to saye so . And where they say wronge / I wyll not lette to tell theym . But on the tother syde yf they go no better to worke , nor no nerer to the mater , then thys man hath done : I shall peraduenture let them euen alone / and lette them lyke theyr wrytynge theym selfe , and no man ellys .

But now lettynge passe all specyall that poyntes : I shall answere the generaltyes that thys good man speketh of . Form in the leaf .xc. these are hys wordes .

And now shall I saye somwhat farther in a generalytye , as mayster More hathe done / and that y● t●is : that al that I speke in the sayde treatyse , was to appeace this diuysyon / and not to begynne any , ne●● contynue yt . And therfore how they can saue theyr conscyence / that saye I dyd rather intende a dyuysyon then agrement , I can not tell / theyr one conscy●nce shall be iudge . And I entended also somwhat to m●●e that myght be occasyon to put awaye abusy●●● , euyll examplys , and heresyes : and not to ●●cr●ase theym or maynteyne theym I dare boldely saye .

To this I answ●re , that yt neyther was nor is my mynde , that men shold thynke that he ment e●yl him self , as I haue in many placis of myn apology testified . But verily I thought & yet thinke , that by some wyly shrewis his boke was so mysse handeled , that yt ment nought , though he ment wel . For where as he sayeth that wyth hys boke of dyuysyon , all hys purpose was to appease dyuysyon : I wyll not contende wyth hym vppon hys owne mynde . But surely thys wyll I saye , that yf I hadde ben of the mynde to sow and sette forthe dyuysyon : I wold haue vsed euen the selfe same ways to kyndle yt , that he vsed ( as he sayth ) to quenche yt .

Thenne goeth he farther and sayth .

And farther as mayster More knoweth better then I , mentire est contra mentem ire , that is to say to lye ys when a man sayeth agaynste hys owne mynde / & in good fayth in all that treatyse , I speke nothynge but that I thought was trew .

To thys I answere , that in dede suche a thynge I haue redde , and as I remembre in Aulus Gellius . Whyche thynge though I haue now no leasure to loke for : yet two poyntes I remembre therof . One that yt ys there mentiri and not mentire / whyche infynytyue mode in what boke of grammer this good man hath founde , I can not tell . I was aferd yt had ben ouersene in the prentynge . But I haue loked the correccyons , and there fynde I no faute founde therin .

The tother poynte I remembre that there ys a dyfference putte betwene m●ntiri & mendacium dicere , that is as we myghte saye / betwene hym that wyttyngly lyeth , and hym that telleth a lye wenyng that it were trewe . And here yt is sayde , wittyngly not to tell a lye , perteyneth to a good man . And not to tell a lye vnware , is the parte of a wyse man . And surely syth the scrypture sayeth that he that shortely byleueth is ouer lyghte : thys good man to byleue so many lyes so soon , and wyth so many some sayes to set theym forthe in prent , to the rebuke and slaunder of the spyrytual iudges , and make men wene they mysse handeled men for heresyes , though the mannys innocent mynde made the synne the lesse , yet was the thyng at the lest no lesse , then a very great lyghtnesse , ye and also a great profe towarde the reprofe of his wordes that folow next , where he goeth farther thus .

And farther I wyll acertayne mayster More a● farre as in me is , that I neyther hadde any sotle shrewes counlayle , ne any euyll counsayle at the makynge of the sayde treatyse , whyche he calleth the boke of dyuysyon ( as ys sayde before )

To thys I answere , that all be yt thys good man and I be at myche varyaunce here in dyuerse thynges : yet for the good and playne professyon of the catholyque faythe that I fynde in hym , in good fayth I mych better loue hym then in that poynt to beleue hym . For yf he sayde therin trew , then were all the fautes onely hys owne / in whyche as I haue often sayde , I myche rather thynke , that some sotle shrewes haue deceyued hym .

And besyde sondry other thynges that lede me so to thynke , one very stronge thynge ys thys , that euery man maye well se by hys boke , that all suche as haue resorted to hym to tell hym any suche thynges , as vnder some sayes he put oute agayne , haue alwaye tolde hym euyll / and neuer told him good . And of misse handlynge for heresyes haue euer tolde hym lyes , and neuer tolde hym trew . For where as the punyshement for heresyes hathe ben very lytle any where , saue euen here at hande , and here but ryght done to them , and that wyth myche fauour to : they haue made hym good sely soule byleue , that ordynaryes mysse handle men for heresye in maner thorow oute the realme .

Also where as such slaunderouse clamour hath bene sondry tymes of late in al that euer complayned , playnly proued false before the kynges most honorable counsayle , not one man cam to tell hym nothynge therof , nor not one some say therof wryten in all his boke / and ouer this where as myne owne self haue playnly told hym ●he same thyngꝭ in myn apologye by writing : yet ( which most meruayle were of all , saue for such wyly shrewes ) euery man may well se that he neu●r redde yt . For he sayth not one worde therto . And therfore yt is eth to perceyue what so euer hym selfe saye whych is loth of his goodnes to put other folke in faute , that there be some wyly shrewes so myche about hym , that they neyther suffer hym any thyng to here but that them self lyst to tel him , nor yet any thinge to rede , but where them selfe lyste to turne hym .

And nowe syth I haue here answered these generalytyes of hys : I wyll not longe encumbre you with any generaltyes of myn own , but generally I wold that al were well . And so helpe me my sauiour & none other wise , but as I wold wishe none heretike one halporth harme , that had clerely lefte hys heresye , and were well tu●ned to god . But on the tother syde , who so sticke styl therin : rather wold I wyshe hym sorowe to his synne , wherby there are many folke many tymes amended , then prosperousely to procede in hys myschyefe to the losse of his own soule and other mennys to . And towarde that poynte , agaynste all male factours in the spyrytualtye and the temporaltye to , wold I wyshe all good folke of bothe partes to agre , and eche loue other wel , and stycke faste to the fayth , whyche were like sore to decay by the chaunge of these good lawes that thys good man goeth aboute to destroye . For whose vnreasonablenesse therin the better to be perceyued , wyth the daungeour and parell that wolde ensewe theron : I wyll desyre you good readers to resorte to myne Apologye / and begynnynge at the leaf . 270 , rede vnto the leaf . 287. wherin you shall I truste be well and fully satysfyed . And vnto all that euer ys in all that spoken : thys man hath nothynge sayd .

And where as in confutynge the fautes that thys man fyndeth in the suyte ex officio , and the lawes made agaynste heretyques , I haue vsed some examples of the comen lawe , whyche this man hathe labored to proue vnlyke / and I haue therin clerely confuted hym a freshe : yt maye peraduenture happen that he wyll now take a nother waye therin , and saye that in such poyntes those spyrytuall lawes maye be reformed , and those temporall to .

How be yt yf he so saye , but yf men forgette what hath ben sayd before : ellys shall they se that his sayenge wyll not serue hym .

For fyrste as I haue sayed ofter then ones all redy , the same thynges in the comen lawe be not to be chaunged . For yf they be : there shall come therof more harme thanne good . And yf yt happen one innocent to take harme by the lawe : there shall fyue for one take more harme by the chaunge .

More ouer yf we sholde for that cause chaunge those temporall lawes , that ys to wytte bycause some innocent maye somtyme take harme by them : we must chaunge by the same reason , all that olde vsed lawe that a man maye be arrested and remayne in pryson tyll he fynde suertyes for the peace , vppon the bare othe of hys enmye that sayth he is a ferde of hym . For by that law may some tyme an innocent take harme to . And yet muste that lawe stande yf we do well . For ellys shall there by the chaunge , mo innocentes take more harme .

What trouble haue there many men in Walys , by that they be compelled to be bounden to the peace , bothe for them selfe and for theyr seruauntes and other frendes to ? And yet is the order there so necessary that in many lordshyppes yt maye not be forborne .

And surely yf we fall to chaungynge lawes vpon the symple ground : we muste then chaunge so many that it wolde not be well .

Bysydes thys yf men sholde reforme and chaunge a lawe , bycause that an innocent maye somtyme take harme therby : then must they when they haue chaunged it , chaunge yt yet agayne / & after that chaunge , yet chaunge yt agayne / & so forth chaunge after chaunge and neuer cease chaungynge tyll the worlde be all chaunged at the daye of dome For neuer can all the wyttes that are in yt , make any one penall lawe / suche that none innocent may take harme therby .

How be yt yf a newe lawe were drawen and putte forthe to be made agaynst any such myschiefe as wold els do mych harme : good reason yt were to take an excepcyon to the byl , and shewe that innocent●s myghte be myche harmed by thys poynt or that / and therwyth prouyde the remedye and putte it in the lawe , and stoppe as many such gappes as then coulde be spyed . Ye and yf after the law made men foud notable harme , that good folke were myche wronged by it / and the lawe suche that it eyther myghte be forborne , or els the meanes founde to be chaunged to the better : good reason wold it to make prouysyon for it .

But surely to come forth as thys man cometh here , agaynste so good lawes , so well made , and by so great authoryte , so longe approued thorow the whole corps of chrystendome , in thys realme ratyfyed specyally by parlyament , and that vppon a profe not wythout great grounde & cause , euer synnys founden so profytable for preseruacyon of the fayth , and proued se necessary vpon thys mannes own deuyces , that without great encreace of heresyes they can not be forborne / nor neuer can be chaunged but eyther to the strayghter or ellys to the wurse : to come now forth and for appeasynge of dyuysyon , so we fyrste a slaunder that maye make dyuysyon , and than labour to chaunge those lawes , vpon none other ground but onely that an innocent may happe to take harme by meane of false iudges , and than proue not any wronge done , but by false some sayes onely , agaynste whyche false some sayes the trouth is proued contrary , bothe by iuste examynacyon before the kynges counsayle , and ouer that playnely by thys one poynte also , whyche no man can denye , that there ys no lawe prouyded agaynste so great a cryme , by whyche lawe lesse people haue in thys realme be punyshed : therfore to come nowe thus as thys good man dothe , and procure the chaunge of these lawes , so olde , so good , and so necessarye , and to make theym more easy , wherwyth heretyques wolde war bolde , whyche thynge hym selfe ( as you se ) denyeth not in the ende : what is this good chrysten readers , but to procure that the catholyque chrysten fayth , myght fade and fall awaye ?

And yet as for thys man hym self to tell you for conclusyon what I thynke / all be yt there are as you se ryghte euyll and perylouse thynges in hys bokes , wyth deuyces that wolde make heresyes encrease : yet syth he professyth so playnely the catholyque chrysten faythe , and by his exhortacyon also towarde the conqueste of the holy lande , declareth hys mynde zelouse and feruent towarde yt , I rather byleue though hym selfe therto saye naye , that in those thynges whyche he wryteth so perylouse and so noughte , some wyly shrewes begyle the good innocent man , than that hym selfe in hys own mynde , meane all that harme .

But yet for as myche as in thys poynt , without syght of mannes hart we can but go by gesse / & who so goth by gesse , may be deceyued ( For ( as hym selfe sayth ) a wolfe maye loke symply lapte in a shepes skynne ) I shall therfore trust the best , and leue the trouth to god . And concernynge suche euyll wrytynges , syth yt must nedes be , that he wrote them eyther deceyued by some shrewys , or ellys but of hym selfe / I can no more do for hym , but hartely praye for hym thus . If shrewys deceyue hym : god sende theym shortely from hym . If he wrote them of his own mynde : thanne syth the thynges be noughte , he wrote theym eyther of euyll wyl , or of ouersyght . If he wrote theym of malyce / god geue the euyll man more grace . If he wrote theym of folye : god geue the good man more wytte .

And thus I beseche our lorde sende vs euerychone , bothe the spyrytuall and the temporall to , bothe wytte and grace to agre to gether in goodnes , and eche to loue other , and eche for other to praye / and for those that of both partes are passed into purgatorye , and there praye for vs as we praye here for theym , that they and we bothe thorowe the merytes of Chrystes bytter passyon , maye both wyth our own prayours , and the intercessyon of all holy sayntes in heuyn , auoydynge the eternall fyre of hell , haue pyty powred vpon vs in the very fyre of purgatorye , whyche in those two places veryly burneth soules . And fynally for our fayth and good workes , whych his grace ( workynge wyth the wylles of thoses the wytte haue ) geueth eche good man here : good geue vs in heuen to gyther euerlastynge glorye .

Prynted by w. Rastell in Fletestrete in saynte Bridys chyrch yarde , the yere of our lorde . 1533.

Cum priuilegio

The fautes escaped in the pryntynge of the fyrste part of thys boke .

fo. pa. li. the fautes . the amendementes iii. ii . xxii . in tenne shetes in .xii. shetes nor nor in tenne in .xii. v. ii . vi . oloquye obloquye viii . i. ii . thre two x. i. x. an a ano a xii . ii . xii . wyt to wyt into xiii . ii . xvi . fole full xv . i● . i. appere ●● by appere by xviii . i. vii . fayle whyche fayle to fal which xx . ii . xxi . in conteyneth it conteyneth xxii i. x. that than xxv . ii . ii . of a trew of trew xxv . ii . xi . A And xxxiii . ii . xix . all also xxxix . i. xv . wordes worde● were xl . ii . x. yf but yf xlii . ii . v. pouerty / and pouerte , nor wold them no lesse then they haue / and xliiii . ii . v. hycaus● bycause xlv . ii . xvi iudge iudged xlv . ii . xviii . persons prestes xlvi . i. i. betwen prestes betwen other preste● xlvi . i. vi . the prestes the seculer preste● xlviii . ii . xx . folke prestes ●● . ii . ix . therto therwyth lxi . ii . xxii● i● to the is the lxvii . i. v● . no more I no more lxx . i. xiv . noneces no neces lxxxiii . i. xvi . aduowter aduowtry lxxxv . i. iiii . all talkynge all such talkyng lxxxv . ii . xiii founde fonde lxxxvi . ii . xii . , as , ys lxxxvii . i. iiii . / wolde / they wolde lxxxvii . ii . xxxiii . ther farther lxxxviii . i. xxii . proued prouyded ci . i. xxii thys hy●

The fautes escaped in the seconde parte .

fo. pa. li. the fautes . the amendementes iiii . i. xix . playne so playne . v. ii . i. certayne a certayne v. ii . iiii . setted setteth v. ii . vi . hys ground & his foundacyon is thys All thys muste be in the great letter vii . ●i . xi . vs therto vs viii . i. v. Be By xxi . ii . xiii . in hys hath in hy● xxvii . i. vii . admonicula adminicula xxviii . ii . iii. , made , is made xxxvii . i. viii . meaneth meaneth not xxxvii . ii . xii . hadde it dyd it xli . i. iii. it prouyded it was prouyded xlvii . i. xxiii . dyaloge opologye xlviii . i. v. sheweth shewed xlix . i. xix . so to some to l. ii . ix . was was not lvi . ● . viii . them then lx . ii . xxi . proueth proue yet lxii j. v the contrary wythout some the contrary , that is to wyt that he wil not trust a iuge so well : thys can he not say● wythoute some lxvii . j. xviii . felony , for felony , or for lxxi . ij . vii . Almayne of Almayne lxxii . j. ii . Chryst / with all whose Chryst with all / whose lxxii . ii . xxi . la●ys lanys lxxiiii . ii . viii . But For lxxv ii . xiii . yf y● lxxvi● . ii . viii . than that lxxx . i. xxii . If he If we lxxx ii . xiiii . vp vppon lxxxiii ii . xv . & xvi . testyfye be testyfyed lxxxvii . ii . ii . reason that reason xcv . ii . v. though thought xcviii . ii . xxiii an englysh englyshe ciii . ii . xxiiii . haue any lo●e haue lo●e ciiii . ii . xi . them then cxi . j. xi . that I and I cxi . ii . xxii founde fonde cxviii . j. iii. doute not also dout also cxvii● . ii xviii . examynacyon excommunycacyon cxxvi . j xviii . xix . xviii . cxxxi . j. x. so double double cxxxv . j. xx . pur●ose purpose . cxxxix . ii . xii . be hygh be so hygh cxlvi . j viii . than doth than he doth cl. j xv . ble tably clii . j. i●ii . all thyng euyl all thynge well clii . j. v. I fyrste fynysh I fynyshe ●lix j. xiii boldenesse / and boldenesse to theu●e / and clxi . ii . xiiii . embuse embysye clxiii . ii . xii . touched the ys touched of th● clxv ii . j. & . ii . all specyall the all the specyall clxvi . ii . x. And here And the●e

Syr Thomas More knyght to the chrysten reader .

AFter these fautes of the prenter escaped in this boke , I shall not let good reders to geue you lyke warnynge of one faute of myne own , escaped me in the begynnyng of this boke . In the .xiii. leaf wherof , and in the fyrste syde , cancell and put oute one of those ouersyghtes that I laye to the pacyfyer , in those .ix. lynes , of whyche the fyrste is the .ix. lyne of the same syde , and the laste is the .xviii. For of trouth not the pacifyer but my selfe was ouersene in that place with a lytle haste , in mysse remembrynge one worde of his . For where as he sayth in the person of Byzance , in the thyrde leaf of Salem and byzance . I wyl cause yt to be wryten into this dyaloge word for word as yt is come to my handes : I forgate whan I answered yt that he sayde , as yt is come / and toke it as though he sayd as it cometh to myne handes .

And therfore albe it that I haue knowen many that haue redde it , of whiche I neuer founde ony that found it : yet syth it happed me lately ●o loke theron & fynde myne ouersyght my selfe , I wolde in no wyse leue it good reader vnreformed . Nor neuer purpose whyle I lyue , where so euer I maye perceyue , eyther myne aduersarye to say wel , or my self to haue sayd otherwyse , to let for vs both indyfferently to declare and say the trewth .

And surely yf they wold vse the selfe same honest pl●●ne trewth towarde me : you sholde sone se good readers all our contencyons ended . For than shold you se , that lyke as I haue not letted after myne apology , to declare that Tyndale had somewhat amended and aswaged in one poynt , hys formare euyll assercyons concernynge satysfaccyon : so shold he confesse the trouth that I hadde trewly touched hym / and that hym selfe had sore erred , as well in the remanaunt therof as in all his other heresyes . And than also , lyke as I let not here for the pacyfyers parte to declare my self ouersene wyth haste in thys one poynt : so shold he not let well & honestly to say the trouth on the tother syde , & confesse hym selfe very farre onersene wyth longe leysoure , in all the remanaunt by syde . I saye not in all that he sayth , but in all that is debated betwene vs .

I wote well the beste horse were he which were so sure of fote that ronne he neuer so faste wolde neuer in hys lyfe neyther fall nor ●●●̄ble . But syth we can fynde no●e so sure : that horse is not mych to be mysselyked , whych that wyth corage & pryckyng forth in haste , happynge for all hys foure fete somtyme to cache a fall , geteth vp agayne lyghtly by hym selfe , wythout touche of spurre or any checke of the brydell . No nor yet that horse to be caste awaye neyther , that getteth vp a●ayne apace with the cheke of them bothe . Now lyke a● wyth the best kynde can I not compare : so of the thyrde sorte at the leste wyse wyll I neuer fayle to be , that is to wyt ryse & reforme my self , whan any man she● me my faut . And as nere as I can 〈◊〉 I serche them / & as sone as I spye the● before any man controll them● aryse● and as I now do myne owne selfe reforme theym . whyche kynde ys you wote well nexte vnto the best . But yet on the tother syde , of all myne aduersaryes could I neuer hytherto fynd● any one , but whan he catcheth on●● a fall , a●●●he ●●theym hath caugh●● full man●● there lyeth he styll tumblynge & toltrynge in myre , and n●yther spurre nor brydyll can one ynche preuayle / but as though they were not fallen in a puddle of dyrt , but rubbed & layed in lytter vnder the manger at theyre ease , they whyne & they byte , and they kycke , and they sp●●ne at hym that wolde helpe them vp●e : And that is yet a fourth kynde , the wurste ye wo●e●●ell that can be .

Finis .