A courtly controuersie, betweene looue and learning Pleasauntlie passed in disputation, betweene a ladie and a gentleman of Scienna. Wherein is no offence offered to the vertuous nor any ill motion to delight the vicious.

¶ A Delicate Discourse betwixt a Lady , and a Scholler of Scienna . Ladie .

I Haue desired of long time , to haue heard your oppinion , but sure my hope neuer hapt so well as my wyll did wishe , tyll now at this instant , when least I lookte , it is my chaunce to gaine my desire . And therefore not refusing opportunity so well offered , nor your courtesie proffered , know you Sir in bréefe , my demaunde is this . Whether Learning may liue without Looue , or Looue liue without Learning : Loe this is all , it is no difficult demaunde , and yet sure it is doubtfull to me , therefore I beséeche your opinion heerin .

Scholler .

Madame , as your reason dooth craue no rashe reply , so are the causes to be scande according to their vertue , the c●mmodity of the one contemnes the discommodity of the other : and sure ▪ they bothe are not to be spared , yet may the one be vtterly reiected , and that is Looue . For touching the nature of the same , although by a naturall instincte , men haue rather giuen themselues thereto then otherwise : the thing of it selfe is but a vaine desire , a pleasaunt flame or furie kindled by affection , a bitter sweete : or rather as I might terme it ●●perefanion Cacone , a swéete euill ●auste with a sower sappe : the commoditie whereof cannot be so commended , but the abuses thereof more vtterly abhorred . For why ? as the thing it selfe ought to be preferred as moste sacred and profounde , so the inexecrable vices lincked there vnto , and the mischéefes so many which thereof ensueth : maketh the delight more odious then honorable , so that there is no comparison , but that Learning may better liue without Looue , then Looue without Learning . For as Looue is generally rather thought a vice , more then a vertue : so Learning from his originall is thought the onely touche , that tryeth such vanities to be rather detested then desired . But now as touching Learning and the swéete commoditie thereof ▪ I say that it is the Key of the Common wealth , the onely Loadestone of mans● life , the Nurse and Foster mother 〈◊〉 Science , the sure supporter and vpholder of vertue : yea and the stronge● and trustie Tower , that serues to● garde & gouerne Princes . Sure , if I should say so much of Learning , as if libertie would permit I could be wel content to discourse : my tongue should not waxe so wearie , as your eares woulde bee desirous to heare the depthe of suche a tale . For to Learning , is not onely the charge of the Common wealth committed : but also there dependeth therevpon the deuine direction , and sauegarde to mans soule . Without learning there could be no Lawe , without Lawe no L●ue , yea and without Looue no life : So that Learning by Lawe dooth rather maintayne Looue , then Looue by Lawe maintaine learning . Beside , I could tell of a number , which by learning haue béene aduaunced to honnor , whereas yet by Looue I haue heard of very few . For what was euer with the Romaines so much in estimation as Learning ? allwayes the Senate was supplyed with singuler Schollers , they regarded not the value but the vertue : so that Learning found there more liberty then Looue . Heere was wunne wealth by wisdome . A simple Shéepeheards sonne , by Learning hath prooued a Praetor , yea or rather Dictator of Roome . How many Clownes haue béene brought to the like honnor by Looue ? if none , then Madame you are to be loouing subiect to Learning , to whom I giue the Soueraignetie . And as for Looue , this I pronounce , it is generally vice , though a perticular vertue , and sure a very méere vanitye ; better to be wanted then wished : for by authority , aswell sacred as prophane , there is lefte to vs a memorie of the manifolde mischeifes , that thereby haue chaunced . And therefore ( Madame ) my aunswer is this , Learning excelleth Looue , if to the contrarye you thinke your selfe able to defend my argument : you here haue libertye to prooue at your pleasure .

Ladie .

I thanke you for it , but I perceaue if I were so ignoraunt , that I could not my selfe define on such a doubt : I were much the better to referre my want to your wisedome , for you argue , but you will not allowe : either you déeme me too simple to compare with your skill , or my wit too weake to counteruaile your wisedome . But Sir , surmise you now dispute with a Dame , and not a Docter : as I am not altogether a Sophister , so thinke me not so ignoraunt : but that I can sounde the depthe of a greater doubte then I haue yet demaunded . And whereas you rather infer the praise onely to Learning and not to Looue : I wil prooue that Looue in a publique weale , is to be allowed abooue Learuing , and Learning more better to be spared then Looue . Firste consider , that Looue is no particuler propertie : but that the same is generall and common to all liuing creatures , but of humanitie moste honoured . Secondly consider the originall from whence Looue taketh his beginning . And lastely , Philosophie in a woman . scanne the sence according to the simple meaning : and then tell me how great a matter is included in this little woord Looue . You wil not deny , but by nature men are learned to looue , and by Looue , Nature had her beginning . How can it then bee chosen , but Looue héerein was Schoolemaister to Learning : séeing the originall was Looue by Nature ? which brought foorth Schollers though not traynde in Schooles .

Scholler .

Not so , for as Looue at the firste was rather Subiect vnto Nature , then either Nature or Looue a subiect vnto Learning : so time héerein was to be preferred before either . Theology . For time brought foorth Nature , and Nature engendred Looue , of Looue came Lawe , and of Lawe Learning . So that I saye , learning had his orriginall from the beginning , and Looue by the diuine substaunce of the Deity , gaue aide to Nature : which after made Looue a Schoolemaister , and Learning a Scholler . But how ? that men ought to looue Learning , and not Learning to like of Looue . For why ? the discommodities thereof are so daungerous : as that Patriarkes , Prophets , Princes , yea and the moste notable Philosophers , doo vtterly estéeme it as an enemie to all vertue .

How many Princes , and other of as great power , haue ( by prophane and sacred authority ) béen seduced by this deceitefull Looue ? I reade of Sallomon , Dauid his Father , Genesis . yea Abraham and Lot , whom though all these were chosen Uessels of the Lorde , yet could they not but doate vpon this vaine desire . And therfore , these haue left behinde them , a staffe to leade the ignorant , least as they did , they féele the scourges of Follie. And yet Abraham forgot Gods promise , & doated vpon Agar : Dauid earnestly repented , and Salomon when he perceiued he had sinned , asked mercy of the Lorde . Therefore I must appropriate to them , that looue : thus saying . Dulce bellum in expertis , Warre is swéete to those that neuer felt it . And so Madam is Looue , but his sauor is sower .

Ladie .

You haue made a longe protestation , but I pray you tell me , if Looue had not béene liked of such holy fathers : whether had they hazarded theyr soules or not , for so swéete a sinne ?

Scholler .

I déeme that although by Nature they sinned , hauing a lust rather to flesh then faythe : yet by repentaunce theyr sinne was but small , and that theyr sinnes left vs a sacred Testimony , to eschew so vaine a delight as Looue , which in the ende is repentaunce . As sayd Demostenes , when he at Corinthe desired Layes of Looue , Whereof arose th●s Prouerbe . whose price béeing too high pitcht for his person , Non lice● omnibus adire Corinthum . he aunswered : I will not buie repentaunce so deare . Loe Lady , how little was looue estéemed , allthough Layes offered her selfe for a summe , which was then the thirde Thirioletta or Harlot of the worlde . How thinke you heerin ?

Ladie .

Marie very well , for as I remember , the moste wisest , learnedst , yea and moste Poets and Philosophers , were made by Layes a laughing stock , who heareing one day great prayse spoken of the Philosophers and Schoole of Athens : as one sodenly breaking out in laughter , she replied thus . Are these ( quoth she ) they whom you reporte for their learning Layes had more . so much renowned : Schollers then euer had Socrates . and come to Corinth to learne of Layes ? Now certainely ( quoth shée ) I am the Philosopher , and they are my Pupils or Schollers : for all theyr studie could neuer comprehend , what I in Corinth haue giuen them to vnderstand . How thinke you now to Layes ? was she not as skilfull in Learning as in Looue ?

Scholler .

In neither of bothe .

Ladie .

Why ? she was beautifull .

Scholler .

Yea , but more bountefull : for shee was better learned in luste then in Layes was Daughter to one of the préests of Apollo . looue , or els she had béene the onely Dame and delight of Pirrhus . But she learned Looue , and all her delight was to traine her Disciples with the like . So , that her learning prooued luste , her beauty a wrimpled brauerie , and all her Doctrine none other but destruction . If I should stande vppon authoritie , I could recite a number through her folly brought to miserie : & sure at the time when she liued , there were other twaine , Lamia the Concubine of Demetrius , and Flora béeing an Italian , farre more of honor then either Layes or Lamia . And therefore ( Madam ) you cannot ascribe any lawde vnto Layes : s●eing that by luste , she was bothe enemie to Looue , and foe vnto learning . For there is neither Poet , Orator , nor Philosopher : but vtterly abhorreth Layes , with her adherents in all their laboures .

Ladie .

Which are they ? expresse .

Scholler .

Why ? Plato , Aristotell , Socrates , Isocrates , Demostenes , and Pericles .

Ladie .

Why ? were all these by Women wronged ?

Scholler .

No , but the euils that happened to others in their time : made them the more carnest to enuie ●ooue .

Ladie .

Yet Ouid liked 〈◊〉 , A Philosopher subiect to Follie. Virgill did not hate it , nor as I remember Aristotle abhorre it , for if ● had , his Hermia had neuer rid him : he had not beene subiect to the spurre , nor her beautie beene the occasion to snaffle his skill , but he doated on delight .

Scholler .

Yet excepting his folly , who was comparable to him either in life or learning ?

Ladie .

Marrie that was Looue , by whome Learning lost his liberty , and Luste receaued the benefite of bothe . For the fancie of the flesh killed the desire of knowledge , and therefore luste at that time restrained Reason , and

Ladie .

And why Sir ?

Scholler .

For that Plato rather was amorous , to try the inconstancie of Looue● then for any affection borne to Archenasse .

Ladie .

Now certayn●ly Plato 〈…〉 beholding to you , 〈…〉 more beholding to 〈…〉 would not 〈…〉 vnwisely haue defended 〈…〉 . But since you are 〈…〉 farre , of trothe take 〈…〉 losopher , and then make 〈…〉 to Venus , as well for the 〈…〉 best .

I am sure you were 〈…〉 of S●crates , and for 〈…〉 beare him , you will not ●eare 〈◊〉 abused : Written 〈◊〉 Clearel●●●● but : yet I praye 〈…〉 angrye with Aspasi● , though shee Schooled your Socrates according to her owne skill . If she béeing a woman had power to teach such a Tutor : How then can you deny , but Looue is the onely Lampe of Learning ▪ the Adamant which drawes you to amorous delight , yea & the very Idoll whom you séeke , although you ferue the Sainct , and sew vnto the shrine . Tush Sir , if Trées could speake , Stones bewray their meanings , or 〈…〉 the delight which they 〈◊〉 by Looue : what were 〈…〉 more , then now there 〈…〉 And yet I dare auouche , 〈…〉 naturall coniunction as 〈…〉 creatures , as for exam●●● 〈…〉 Female from the Mals , ●he 〈…〉 dyeth , yea bothe perhap●● 〈◊〉 therefore generally , in all things , Looue is to be preferred 〈…〉 . For why ? Learning 〈…〉 estéemed but with the wi●e , nor ●ath any lasting , perpetuit● 〈…〉 permit : But Looue is immortall , not to be by death destroyed .

And therefore Sir , you play on a wronge Pipe , to condemne Looue , and commend learning .

Scholler .

Certainely Madame , you weary your selfe although to small purpose , for you chuse such occasions as best may serue your 〈◊〉 ▪ but you neuer regarde the wronge which you d●● to the Author .

Ladie .

Why ? haue I 〈…〉

Scholler .

Not one , but all .

Ladie .

Oh Sir , I blame you 〈…〉 seueare , séeing that your 〈…〉 Science is almost spoyled 〈…〉 You could doo very● 〈…〉 should not saye somewhat for them and your selfe . But 〈◊〉 that , I now will somewhat digre●●● , to show you of a rare example that happened by 〈◊〉 ● if you wyll bestowe time to heare it .

Scholler .

Certainely Madame that I will , or els you might déeme me very ingrate .

Ladie .

W●ll , then Sir attend .

As I remember Athineus wryteth , that a certaine Courtezan named 〈◊〉 Milesienna , A proper example by three Loouers , written by Athineus . no lesse adorned with regardes of Nature , then 〈◊〉 ●er person preferred in hart of 〈…〉 personages : was desired of many , not of the inferior sort , but of the best , insomuch , as that in the end ▪ she fixed her fancie to fauour 〈…〉 the named Colophomen , 〈…〉 ●●quisite in beautie : with 〈…〉 her dearest and daintiest 〈◊〉 , she chose to performe her amorous pleasures , although others had some interest , yet to him she was at 〈◊〉 commaund .

Neuerthelesse , as I wyll not héerein commend her last●uious life : so I will not forget to ●●we a rare regarde of loyaltye , to be in this common Courtezan .

Shée determined 〈…〉 to giue him ouer first , 〈…〉 should vnderstand she 〈…〉 new made choyce : and 〈…〉 one day to put the same 〈…〉 what time her loouer 〈…〉 thinking to be no lesse welcome t●en before : he found his Lady had chaunged her coppie , the 〈◊〉 was altered , her countenaunce séemed to him 〈◊〉 could as the Ise of the Mountay●● , making no accoumpt either of his proffers or of his complaints . Which when Colophomen once conceaued 〈…〉

The youngman departing 〈◊〉 rate of all hope , either to 〈◊〉 grace of his Lady , or the 〈…〉 compasse the Chaine of 〈…〉 last hazarding the hap of bothe 〈◊〉 me th●to Bachide , and vnto her 〈◊〉 the dollerous disco●rse , late hap●pened twixt him , and his 〈◊〉 fr●e●d . Not forgetting to beséeche 〈◊〉 of her ●ountie , in committing to the court●fie of his a●ncient 〈…〉 Chaine , whom he so dearely 〈◊〉 Bachide , A singuler curtesie in a Courtezan . which behelde with what care her Colophomen was 〈◊〉 , and how beside , of long time the familiarity was great twixt 〈◊〉〈…〉 young man : saying . 〈…〉 shall neuer cause my 〈◊〉 to be contemned , take the 〈◊〉 therefore , and present thy Lady 〈◊〉 therewith : and say , that 〈◊〉 then she should be ielous 〈…〉 of her Iewel , I send her my Iewell to driue away her ielousie . The young man hauing the Chaine depa●ted , how glad , that I commit to the 〈◊〉 of Loouers . And finding his fréend Milisienna , presenteth her therewith : not forgetting to adde thereto the woordes of Bachide . Which when Milisienna had well 〈◊〉 , and sawe the courtesie , 〈…〉 also resignes her 〈…〉 Colophomen to be at her 〈…〉 for her selfe , to be at the 〈…〉 pleasure of them bothe . 〈…〉 not to put in practise , ought 〈◊〉 should be preiudice to either 〈…〉 persons : So to conclude , they 〈◊〉 were contented to impart then 〈◊〉 alike to Colophomen . I doo 〈◊〉 now , which of these had the greater conquest : she that bestowed her Chaine so bountefully , or shée that reto●ned it with so great a rewarde , as to commit her fréend to the liking of the other .

Scholler .

Certainely , shee that gaue the Chayne was the greatest Conquerour , for that shee did hazarde it without hope of any happe ● and 〈…〉

Ladie .

〈◊〉 is this your oppinion ?

Scholler .

〈…〉 , but to what end serues 〈…〉 , I cannot perceiue it ?

Ladie .

Naye you will not , and that is 〈◊〉 , for if you did , you then might 〈◊〉 how secreat the effects of Looue wrought in these thrée : but especially in the man , for he béeing forsaken of Milesinna , with charge neuer to pre●●●● her presence , without the 〈◊〉 of B●chide : did 〈◊〉 haz●●● 〈…〉 so that his hap hung 〈…〉 vnlesse he brought the 〈…〉

Scholler .

Alas Madame , this is but 〈◊〉 example , to appro●ue this 〈…〉 loyall either of the one or 〈…〉 : for you confesse them 〈◊〉 , them are they common by 〈◊〉 and looke what kinde dooth , 〈…〉 hardly be reformed . Therefore 〈◊〉 Lo●ue was Luste , theyr courte●●● 〈◊〉 vnchaste : yea & all theyr praise 〈◊〉 to be counted pernici●us , then to be preferred for perfect . But now Madame ) ●éeing we are entered 〈◊〉 farre into examples of Looue 〈…〉 you of o●e more notable then any yet rehearsed , which Plutarche hath written in contempte of Looue , and his lawe , and that is this .

〈…〉 yeares in her vnchaste and las●iuious looue : she was a● lengthe demaunded 〈…〉 , and so delightfull to 〈◊〉 , that by the sodaine glaunce 〈…〉 from her inticing lookes 〈◊〉 caught in the mischéeu●● 〈◊〉 and nette of her beauty . In 〈◊〉 , as his owne former plea●●●● 〈◊〉 were vtterly abandoned : and 〈◊〉 his fancie fixed to behold the 〈…〉 fauour of his Lamia . In so much , as that he would u●uallye swea●e by Lamia , as had shée béene a Godde●●● : and as Plu●a● 〈…〉 at such time when the Athenian● to assist him in his warres , 〈…〉 of theyr courte●ies eleuen , Tallents of siluer to paye his Souldiours : 11. Ta●ents of Siluer giuen to a H●rlot . he regarding more the Looue of his Lamia , then the safety or 〈…〉

〈…〉 take my Lamias life , thou leauest 〈◊〉 her looue behinde with me . She being dead ( as some writers affirme ) was by him kissed and imbraced as 〈◊〉 when she liued : & when he saw n● remedy , but the law of nature must haue her due , he causd her sepulcher to be made before his window , whereas he vsed once a day whilste he liued to waile the death of her . In so much the it was proponed by the Philosophers of Athens , 〈◊〉 woorkes yet liue , and in spight of 〈◊〉 , they vaunt of victory . Therefore ( Madame ) heere was looue loste with Lamia , and though Demetrius , 〈◊〉 her , his Learning did loathe her . And therefore I hope this example may make you content not to striue any further .

Ladie .

Nay Sir , you shall not so shake me off , séeing you by common Courtizans doe rather gaine glory , then by loyall looue vsed of constant Ladyes : I will now requite your example with the like , although I might rather blushe then to boaste thereof . Yet séeing we stand vpon example hetherto , onely vpon prayse and disprayse of Looue : I purpose now to wade a little farther , and either to prooue Looue Soueraigne of Learning , or Learning superior , and looue his Subiect . I am sure you are not ignoraunt of Flora , for that I heard you name her of late , the life of whom , though I wish not to commend : so will I not condemne her wisedome , in the subtill Schooling and Nurtering of her Pupils or Schollers .

FLora was of byrthe noble , of nature gentle , of personage beautifull , and of Looue liberall , in so much that ouer the place where she dwelt , she set vp this scrole or prescripte . Except King Prince , A large title . Dictator , Praetor , Consull , Censor or Questor , heere is no place for any to enter . As for Emperor or Keyser , they were not then knowne , this was her vse , she neuer set her honour like Layes to salery : for Laies would commonly haue her hyer before hande . Now Flora had this fetch , she as not respecting Goulde or Siluer , gaue her selfe to be gouerned by her Loouer . And so by this meanes she got treasure infinite , for why ? this was her common phrase , béeing one day demaunded the cause by Noble men , why she refused to aske what she would haue , she aunswered thus .

I commit my selfe ( quoth she ) to Princes and Noble men , that according to my beautye , I may be pertaker of their bounty . For ( quoth she ) by the Gods whom I doo serue , there was neuer man gaue me so little , but that I had more then I lookt for , or double to my demaund . There ought ( quoth she ) no sage woman to set her selfe to sale , for all things in the world are rated at a price , except Looue , and that is not to be payed but with Looue : so that none ought to demaund duety for the amorous pleasure she dooth to a man , but for the Looue she beareth vnto him . This was the opinion of this Courtezan , who though she were common , it was not so much for coyne as courtesie . She sought to none , yet was she sought of all . The learnedst thought no shame to be her Schollers . Then Ergo Looue was héere more regardant then Learning when Consuls & Censores left all for lust & Looue of Flora. Whether was Wit or Wisdome héere best Scholler ? Witte wan Looue and wealth , and Wisdome loste wealth and gaynde Luste .

Scholler .

Sure Madame , you scan the sence contrary , for though Flora found such fortune , as that the wisest and wealthiest were bondmen vnto her beautie : yet she neuer held Learning in subiection . Learning still had liberty to triumphe ouer Looue , although the learned were snared by her subtilty . So that if Looue haue conquered any , blame the Booke bearer , and not the Booke : for Learning it self neuer yet hath nor will bende to beauty , I stand vpon this oppinion .

Ladie .

Of trothe I beléeue you thinke your selfe in your study , or els you would not speake so obscure : but what figure you take I know not , but wel I note all your woords are per Allegoriam . But Sir according to my Lodgicke , I will approoue , that as long as the Learned are liuing , they enioy Learning , and the benefit thereof : you cannot seperate them a sunder , for conquere one and take bothe . Euen as a man should say , take my heart and take my life , naming two when one would suffise . Therefore Sir , I say that if Loone subdue the Learned , shee then is conqueror of bothe : vnlesse you will make a distinction , touching the person of the one , and the property of the other , and that you cannot , for that they bothe are so faste lincked as nothing can sunder them : therefore you erre , if to the contrarye you conster the case .

Scholler .

Well , then I perceaue you will haue it : either to what perfection you please , or els you wyll not giue ouer . And therefore as I remember , Cornelius Suetonius . Cornelius Suetonius sheweth a notable example , to the vtter abollishing of Looue , which you tearme amorous or pleasaunt pastimes : and for because that you will not be perswaded , that Looue can any way be reiected rightfully : I will now by example prooue it to be so odious , as you your selfe shall confesse it hath varyed from the lawes of Nature : and this is the example .

THe Tirant Nero , who not onely longe time moste● inordinately and beastly , spoyled a number of Uir●ins and chaste Ladyes : A moste horrible acte of Nero . bothe against God . and the Lawe of nature . but also finding a beautifull Boye , more pleasaunt in his eyes then any other Uirgin or woman : caused his secrets to be spoyled , thinking thereby to haue him transformed to his owne pleasure , by such a Metamorphosis as of a man to haue a woman . Not long after he married him , naming him Sporus , endowing him with such secret duties , as to a Wife are due by dowry . Héere was lust more than law of Nature , and yet it was Looue . But I hope you will not allow this , séeing that Nature was héere a foe vnto her selfe , in kindling so great a fire in Nero , as could not be quenched without such a cursed coniunction . This Luste of Nero quite extinguished the glory of Looue , and makes the same so odious to the eares of such as reade this tragedy : that men rather séeke by reason to brydle such fiery affections , then to be found acquainted with such pestilent passions . So that Cornelius and Suetonius doo leaue their Learning , to be a Lampe or Loadstone vnto our liues , that though we séeke to be rather thralle to Looue , then by Learning to haue liberty : yet theyr counsell is héerein to be ruled by Learning , and not to raunge beyonde reason : so that Learning is héere vtter enemy to looue .

Furthermore , sithe I am so farre entred , I will yet make a farther discourse of the vnnaturall Looue of a Father to his owne Childe : that the terror of the tale may giue light as in a Glasse , to beholde how vnchaste and inconstant Looue , is for the moste parte .

Ladie .

Beginne your tale , I attend the same with dilligence .

Scholler .

WEll Madame , then know you when Diophes was Kinge of Egipt , Herodotus . whose substaunce , treasure and reuenues , were vtterly consumen and spent , to maintaine a sumptuous woorke , which he had then in hande : the number of whose workemen , was not so f●we as one hundred thousand . Who labouring long tyme vppon a pyle ( as the Author affirmeth ) wasted so much wealthe : as that he was not onely destitute , but also desperate to comprehend the same . A father compelleth his owne daughter to liue laciuiously . And séeing by no meanes possible the same could be finished but onely by the meane of money , which then he did want : He commeth to his Daughter , and commaundeth her earnestly to giue her selfe to sensuall prostitution , menacing her not onely to pitch a great price vpon her honor : but also to embrace euery one that brought to her commodity . Which soone after she fulfilled , no lesse with regarde to her owne profit , then also to performe her promise to her father . For looke how many dealt or had dalliaunce with her , of euery such she demaunded a Stone : whereby at last she gathered such a gayne , that the price thereof builded the Piramides , a certaine hill which beareth on the top one hundreth and fiftie foote . This Looue you must néedes confesse was neither good nor godly : and therfore Learning in this place had béene better then Looue . For then the excessiue expence of the father , had neuer sought the sale and the spoyle of his owne séede : but héere was Luste and no Learning , which forced folly bothe in Father and Daughter .

Farther more as I remember , A straunge kinde of loouing . Lodouicus Vartomanus writeth of a straunge and wonderfull wooing or looue making : which in a prouince in India named Tarnassery , is commonly vsed , and thus it is .

WHat time as any young man becommeth amorous of any Dame : he commeth to her , and taking a péece of woollen cloathe which he dippeth in Oyle , he clappeth the same to his naked arme , and setting fier thereto : he protesteth by his Gods to endure no lesse torment for her whom he looueth , then that which in her sight she séeeth him to receiue : signifying therby , that there is no torment or martirdome that may be ministred to a man , but that he is able to abyde the same for her sake . But what thinke you Madame ? wrought Looue or Learning first the effect ? If it were Looue , what néede he then to scorche his skinne ? If it were Learning , as it can be no other , vnlesse Diuine inspiration put it in his head , which if it were , yet was it Learning , although applyed leawdely , to a more lasciuious Luste .

How thinke you Madame ? haue you examples enowe , or wyll you any more ?

Ladie .

My sence is almoste surprised with these detestable , yea or rather diuelish discourses : for amongst all these euils , although I confesse they haue béene contributores to Cupid , there hath not yet beene any without spot : and yet the bad is as good as the best to reason with you . But leauing them as they are , not yéelding any whit to Learning : What thinke you now Sir ? of such Dames whose vertues haue béene vaunted of the wisest , praysed of Philosophers and Poets : yea , and so lamented of the learnedst , as that neither Pen nor Poet was able to discourse the Looue and loyaltie , which in their liues they ought to their husbandes ? ne like case , to Recorde the reuenge with lyuing , with theyr Husbands losse , they vsed on themselues ?

FIrste to begin with Porcia , Porcia consumed her selfe with hotte coales . the Daughter of Cato , and wife vnto Brutus : who when shée vnderstoode of the slaughter of her spowse : not hauing an instrument for death , so ready as she wisht , to shew the looue and loyalty she bare to her Brutus , deuoured burning coales . Cleopatra Quéene of Egipt , ●ppianus Alex. at such time as the death of her Anthonius , was once to her reuealed : no myrthe , no meate , no delight , was so much desired of her as death Whom when Octauius Caesar had perceiued , and sawe by her passions , that she could not preuent the same without perill of her person : hee caused her to be strongely garded , war●ly watched , yea and so circumspectly conducted , as that he déemed her safe , from séeking slaughter of her selfe . But how brought she to passe her will ? she approoued a straunger torment , then either sworde or fier : and that which moste deare she alwayes reserued for Anthonius , she refused not to bestow bountefully on venemous Serpents , wherewith her corpes was cleane consumed . Thyrdly , let vs not forget that loyall Ladye Arthemezia , Quéene of Caria , and wife of Mansolus : who when her Husbands death was blowen into her eares , wepte so bitterly with such aboundaunce of teares , that well nighe all the moysture in her body , conuerted into watry humores , yea , or rather floods of Salte droppes . Whose death , when with mourning and sorrowing , shee had sufficiently supplyed : she caused a moste sumptuous Sepulcher or Shrine to be made , and as the bodys wasted and consumed , so dranke she vp still the duste of her deare Mansolus : neuer leauing , til the very bones had satisfyed her , as the rest before . Thus was her selfe the Sepulcher of her spowse , déeming the woormes vnwoorthy for him , although they were fed with her selfe . Furthermore , Liuie reciteth , that when it was reported to Iulya , Titus Liuius . how Pompaeus her husband was slaine in the féelde : she tooke the same so sorrowfull , that in the presence of Pompaeus , she passed her life . Also the wife of Brucollo an Allemaigne , when for treason her husband was by the Emperor Claudius Marcello condemned to be deuoured of Lions : she sued vnto the Emperor , to participate the torment of her Husband . And when she sawe no intercession would serue , neither for his suretie of life , nor for her selfe , who desired to accompany him to death : shée brake into such a furie , Augustino de panchio . as not regarding the torment , she spake the moste vyle and reprochefull woordes she could inuent , against the Emperor Claudius . Yea , and if his Garde had not béene , shee had slaine him . Which the Noble Emperor séeing , and considering of the cause : not onely pardoned her Husband and her selfe , but also gaue them largely for to liue .

How thinke you now sir ? whether dooth Looue or Learning héere get moste prayse ? Learning in this place preferres Looue , or els there had béene no memorie made of the liues of these chaste and constant Ladyes . And therefore Learning hath made a Register , and vollume of their vertues , wishing others to immitate the like , as did these honest Matrons , whose liues is the onely Lampe or Loadestone for Ladyes . How thinke you Sir ? can you alledge any thing to the contrary ?

Scholler .

I cannot well condemne them , ne will I els commend any part●●●ler person .

Ladie .

Why ? were they not chaste and constant to theyr husbandes : that would not refuse to accompany them to the death ?

Scholler .

I will not deny , but theyr death did argue a great signe of constan●ie : for that in such extremeties , the losse of lyfe is a Touchestone , either to trye Looue to be faythfull , or els to bee fayned . For otherwise , there are many , that wyll vowe in showe to taste any torment , for the health or surety of their husbands , Death tries the trothe of all men . but the deedes dye wi●h th● death of the Husband . And therefore , for troth , I must giue praise to those whom you haue named : but ●ouching their death ; for that the same was doone desperately , there can be no cause of prayse preferred to such persons . For that by sacred writ , we are 〈◊〉 , in what sorrow or 〈◊〉 soeuer we be , not to shorten 〈◊〉 dayes by any stroke of death : but paciently to take the same , vntill by the prouidence of God , we finde ease of all such euils . And therefore Learning hath left no such lawde of the death of these Dames , although their liues be woorthy the writing . Therfore ( Madame ) you muste vale now , and giue place to Learning : or els you erre much in your oppinion , for that you by their deathes , make them to be renowned , which rather deserue vtterly , to be reprochefully reputed . In that they , to féede their fonde and amorous affection , would by the losse of their 〈◊〉 , breathe life into the bodyes of their buryed husbande 〈…〉 wish with my hart , all women 〈◊〉 follow the same : but touching theyr deathes , that I referre to Diuines : but surely , on my part it is vtterly detested . For I can appropriate no 〈◊〉 to such a pernicious 〈◊〉 ne can any man commend the same to be doone of constancie , but rather frantick or foolishly , And therefore ( Madame ) I cannot allow your argument to be good .

Ladie .

Why Sir ? I am sure I haue forged no fable , whereby to make theyr prayse a president 〈◊〉 my purpose : ●e séeke I to attribute to their dooinges any larger discourse , then I can affirme ●y authority . And therefore , i● 〈◊〉 the contrary , haue declared of 〈…〉 ●ene dead . And if by their deathes they haue rather merited reproche then renowne : who then is in the fault , but those that haue painted their prayse , in place of dysprayse . For if their liues were honorable , and their deathes odyous : theyr liues should haue béene registred , & their deathes béene put in obliuion . But I will not be perswaded ( although you deeme their desperation to be damnable ) but that those Dames doo yet liue in delight 〈◊〉 for at that time they rather chused death to winne a 〈◊〉 life there●y , A good hope . then to liue licenciously , to die a double death .

And therefore ●y opinion is , these Ladyes , although they knew not Christianity : 〈◊〉 had and haue they● foules , the glory and gaine of 〈◊〉 on , and therefore Learning 〈…〉 l●ttle to contend with 〈…〉

But now vnto a farther 〈◊〉 you will not allow Looue to be 〈◊〉 ouer Learning : and therefore 〈◊〉 approoue it by an example , 〈◊〉 shal be no lesse familiar then faithfull : What , will you then giue ouer ?

Scholler .

Madame , I will ●iue you the hearing , and as I like your reason , so shall you heare my reply : if it be good , I will allow it , if otherwise , I muste and will confesse the con●rarie .

Ladie .

Well then Sir to the purpose .

WHen the King of Hetruria had Titus Liuius . sent his def●aunce to the Senate of Roome , and that his Legats expected the aunswer of the Senator● : Mutius Sc●●uola and Coclius ( then Consuls ) béeing in the Senate : the●● was a controuersie betwéene 〈◊〉 they were deuided on contra●●● 〈◊〉 , parte helde it best to make 〈◊〉 with the Hetrurians , and 〈◊〉 some to giue aunswer to the ●●ntrary , but especially Coclius , who 〈◊〉 an eloquent Oration openly 〈◊〉 the Senate : perswaded the Ro●●ines not to take truce , but valiantly to prooue themselues , as theyr noble Progenitors had doone before them . Whose Oration béeing ended , as you know Scaeuola replyed , that Coclius had little care of his Countrey , so to perswade them to warres : when by their wisedomes , they were able to appease the hatred of the Hetrurian King . But whilest they contended about this case , a Messenger came running 〈◊〉 into the Senate house , and brought ridings how the enemy was at 〈◊〉 : the Feildes were couered with armed men , and the Walles of Roome at point to b● scaled . Which Co●●●us hea●ing , now my Lordes ( quoth he ) defend Roome by your wisdome and Learning , I leaue you : and with that woord sodainly departed , and hastily 〈◊〉 himselfe , came firste to 〈…〉 where , by an assault , the enemy 〈◊〉 ready to enter . One man fought against a whole Armie . But Coclius 〈◊〉 more the sauegarde of his 〈…〉 then surety of himselfe , stoode in 〈◊〉 fence and kept the Bridge 〈◊〉 the whole Hoste of He●rurians : and when he sawe no remedy , he fired the Bridge twixte him and the enemy , and taking his halfe Shéelde , which then he had left , he refused not to leap into Tyber , and so to hazarde his life ▪ rather then to leaue to his foes the conquest and spoile of his Countrey . Héere was Looue more then Learning : for if Learning could haue defended Roome , I déeme it sufficiently supplied with Schollers . But héer was Looue conquer●● , and whilste Looue labored by life to frée Roome from ruine Learning lay soft at home , expectyng , when the enemie would come to fight with words , But had Looue , bothe by Coclius , and after by Mucius Scaeuola ● béene no better Soldiers to their Countrey by theyr Looue , then such S●hollers by their 〈…〉 walles of Rome should then 〈◊〉 at this day , the sloth of theyr 〈◊〉 Senators , and prayse the Looue and vertue of Coclius and 〈◊〉 . And though the one held 〈◊〉 a wrong opinion , against the other : when Mutius Scaeuola had heard what a valliant exployt was by Coclius atcheiued : What ( quoth he ) shall Mutins he mewed vp in the Senate , and heare such fame ringe in Rome of Coclius ? No. And with that woord , he departed to the Campe of his enemy , where he by his endeuor shewed such a Looue to his Countey : as neuer was the like since the death of Curtius . Curtius who leapte into the gulfe at Roome . Whose example if I séeme to passe with out prayse : I should sure ecclipse the honour that by him was doone to Roome , and also wrong much the Knight , who for his Country counted his lyfe to be as nothing . These and such other examples are ryfe in memory , and therefore I but giue notyce of theyr noble nature . But Sir , how many were in Roome of your profession , that for the publique weale , would put himselfe in perill like to any of these ? that is to say , Coclius , Curtius , or Mutius Scaeuola . And how if I named Marcius , Regulus , Manlius , Coriolanus , yea , or Scipio , surnamed Africanus ? these were all Schollers , yea and Senators . But how many shewed like Looue to Roome as they did , and had so small a guerdon for their good will ?

Manlius , A sor●● recompence for true seruice . after long and manye yeares , venturing his life in the quarrell and right of his Countrey : When he came vnto Roome , was throwne ouer the walles into the riuer Tyber , Coriol●nus was banished , and when he 〈…〉 Voltians against the 〈◊〉 Roome : they then fearing theyr destruction , sent out his Mother , Wife , and children , with charge not to returne , till they with him had gotten truce . Which once vnderstood of the Voltians , when he returned to his Campe , he ●as of them trayterouslie slaine . M●r●us Regulus after many notable things by him a●chieued : was cruelly stoned , or pres● to death by his owne Countreymen , whom he had doone so much for . Scipio likewise , spending all his time , in the wars and defence of his Country : neuer found any such enemy as Roome , which rewarde● him with banishment . So that he dyed in a Uillage in the Countrey , accusing Roome to be the enemy , and author of all his euils . A 〈…〉 Hanniball likewise , found Carthage so vnkinde , that flying in his olde age to Prusius ●or succour , 〈…〉 : and so rather then to yeelde to his foes , poysoned himselfe . These fellowes looued not to pra●● of Table Philosophie , nor to make a 〈◊〉 ▪ sitting in theyr Ladyes lapp●s . For these Loouers neuer went to studie , what elloquenc● they should vse to please theyr Loouers : but bluntly powred it out , that bothe earth and Skies , resounded the Eccho df theyr enuie .

And furthermore , A rare example . when as Dametria vnderstood , that her sonne , sent in the defence of his Countrey , fayled to shew his valliancie according as it was in charge to him committed . How aunswered she the Messenger ? Hath not my sonne ( quoth she ) wun fame to his Countrey ? No certainly ( quoth he ) but vtter dishonor by his cowardnes . Well ( quoth shee ) and what he hath loste among his foes , at his returne he shall finde amongst his freends : he shall neuer bring confusion to his Countrey , nor sorrow to my so●le : 〈…〉 rewarde , 〈…〉 sonne within a while came home , and hauing then proo●●● valiant indéed● , came , according to the auncient custome of C●nquer●●s . Which wh● she sawe ; she with teares séemed tenderly to welcome him : But in the dead time of his sléepe she murthered him . And béeing demaunded the cause , shée replyed thus . Héereby ( quoth shée ) I haue fréeed my selfe and ●ountrey from a cowarde , and giuen victory to him by death , that could not attayne it by life : meaning , that by his death , his Countrey should neuer come to ruine by his cause .

Héere was a straunge kinde of Looue , when the Common wealth was nourished before nature and the libertie thereof pawned by the pryce and corpes of her owne Childe . But shee estéemed not his life so much , as the Looue she ought to her Countrey : yet was she Learned , and 〈◊〉 Lawe of nature , thought her sonne woorthye to taste such a torment .

Also Genutius , A moste rare constancie in Genutius , who to kéepe inuiolate the Romaine law , c●used his owne Sonne to be slain● . when his enemyes Campe and his were so nigh , as that the one would ( in time of tru●● ) visit ●he other : he commaunded vpon paine of death , no man for any cause , the Trumpet of truce once sounded , should encounter his enemy .

Not long after , it hapened a noble youth comming towards the Campe of Genutius , from the other side , bothe in signes and woords of reproche challenged Briaro , the sonne of Genutius : who knowing the daunger , yet séeing the hautie heart of his enemie , answered . Neuer shall it be sayde that a Consulles sonne of Roome , will suffer himselfe to bee so scorned : and turning himselfe towardes his foe , gaue him that , which to crakers and praters is moste due , in so muche that hée slewe him . Whereat the Souldiours reioysyng , thinking to haue had praise of 〈◊〉 : bewrayeth the whole summe . Which when he heard , béeing m●●ued therewith , that his commaundement was no more regarded : Goe ( quoth he ) take him , whippe him at a ●●ake , and after strike of his head . Neuer shall the Lawe of the Romaines , be broken by Genutius .

How thinke you Sir ? hee was Consull , and he bothe knew Looue , Learning and Lawe : yet was Looue preferred héere before bothe . Therefore , you now cannot otherwise , but accoumpte this saying true . Amor vinci● omnia . For héer generally Loue is still Conqueror , and Learning the onely Uassaile and Subiect vnto Looue .

Scholler .

You haue waded very farre , in searching authorityes , but sure Madame , you are yet wide of the white , your Shaftes are well shotte , but they light very short of the Marke : and therefore Madame , I hold it best you rather giue ouer with indifferencie , then to weary , your selfe , and loose all in the end .

Ladie .

Well sayde Sir , I am content that I serue you vaine 〈◊〉 , to giue you delight by my 〈◊〉 , to trye your wit and capacetie : and séeing you are so plesauntly disposed , haue with you for company , but first , I pray you make me resolution 〈◊〉 this demaund .

Who was the wisest that 〈◊〉 was , the Learnedst that euer was , the Loouingst that euer was , the liberallest that euer was , and the strongest that euer was . Loe this is all , therefore commaunde your wittes into your counting house , and let me sée how finely you can define of this Demaund : it is as good for you as a Doncaster bitte , therefore hemme , and to it with a courage . What ? faynte you all readie ? nay soft , you must yet sift a little farther , turne the backside of your braynes once the backside of your braynes once more ouer 〈◊〉 now man ? no metuas , be not afraide .

Scholler .

Tush Madame , these your quippes I 〈…〉 delightfull as your disputation , 〈◊〉 etting that passe : I now apply my selfe , to the aunswer of your demaunde .

The 〈◊〉 that euer was sin●● 〈…〉 was S●llomon : for that there was no Riddle , nor Allegor 〈…〉 , but by his wisdome he made 〈◊〉 ●a●e open . But yet for all his wisdome he fell from God , and was by Loo●e , made thrall to a number of vices . But why ( Madame ) stande we héere vpon ? Me thinkes you in●er 〈◊〉 vpon necessitie , because you want matter to follow your argument ▪ which if you doo : I shall not onely 〈◊〉 in 〈◊〉 a Ladie , but reioyse that by my meanes , your minde shall bee altered from Looue .

Ladie .

Forwarde Sir , you haue yet mist the marke , and gon some what downe the winde : but shoote once more . Who was the Learnedst that euer was ?

Scholler .

If a man may aime 〈…〉 then were the sonnes of 〈◊〉 , the learnedst : for knowing and 〈◊〉 the secreates and Misteries of the Heauens , they found , that the world should be destroyed , either 〈◊〉 fire or water . And therefore to leaue a memorie behinde them of such 〈◊〉 hidden misterie , they erected 〈…〉 , the one of earthe , and the 〈◊〉 of brasse : in which they orderly engraued the Science of Astrologie and Astronomis , thinking that if the worlde were consumed with fire the 〈◊〉 of Earthe should yet be 〈◊〉 , and if with water , then the other of Brasse . So that I déeme them the Learnedst , for that they were the founders of Learning .

Ladie .

All this is labour lost , well , what and who was the loouingst that euer was ▪

Scholler .

The 〈◊〉 that euer was , I déee● 〈…〉 our Sauiour Christe : whose 〈◊〉 was such towarde vs poore sinners , that he disdayned not to leaue Heauen , to come and take 〈◊〉 nature héere vpon him on earth , 〈◊〉 so of his mercy he might make ●●tis●action for our sinnes , whose 〈◊〉 otherwise had béene cleane 〈◊〉 of saluation . So that I affirm● his Looue towards vs , neuer was , is , or shal be the like .

Ladie .

So sir , come no more , a● that scantling I pray you , for you haue hit the Clowte in the middest 〈…〉 againe , who was the liberalle●● that euer was ?

Scholler .

The liberallest that euer was , was Esau , for he solde bothe his inheritaunce , and also the blessing of God , to his brother for a messe of Pottage . I neuer knew a more liberall gifte vpon so little gaine . And as for the strongest that euer was : I confesse that Sampson was he , for that he was almoste inuincible , if he had not fallen in his faithe .

Ladie .

Well , and is this your definition : are you content to yéelde it vp so ?

Scholler .

Yea sure .

Ladie .

If you doo , it is little to your prais● ▪ for that except in one point , you haue fayled in all . Yea , and in that too , for that all these vertues expressed , are resident with one person : and you haue prooued them contrarie , to be dispersed . But what will you say , if I prooue them all in one ?

Scholler .

I saye then ( Madame ) that you do● very well .

Ladie .

Nay : but if I approoue i● true , and like case conclude Looue to be Nurse to Learning . Will you ●o affirme , and cease longer to co●tend thereof ?

Scholler .

On that condition I will , I promise you : but if you fayle to doo it , how then ?

Ladie .

Then will I giue chéefe prize and prayse to Learning .

Scholler .

Well then Madame , beginne at ●our pleasure .

Ladie .

The Wisest , Learnedst , Loouing●●● , Liberallest , and Strongest that euer was , is Iehoua , the onely maker and creator of all thinges , who by his wisdome made the worlde , and in the same hath not onely planted and placed all kinde of creatures : but also made man , to be the onely Lord of all creatures els liuing . So that who may compare with his wisedome ? or who can comprehend a woorke of such woonder ?

As touching now the Learnedst that euer was , I likewise affirme that the Learning and Lesson , which he first taught our Father Abraham , was so profound , 〈◊〉 of so great importance : that all the Diuines in the world , could neuer define the misterie thereof .

Thirdly , you confesse him to be th● Loouingst that euer was , and I mus● néedes allow it . For what greater Looue could he showe to man : then firste to make him , béeing nothing but slime , like to his moste glorious and diuine Image . Secondly , when man had transgressed , and was by the Law condemned , how Loouingly sent he , according to his promise , his onely sonne our Sauiour , to paye our raunsome , and to deliuer vs from deathe and damnation . What Looue was euer like to this ? and yet this Looue was meant to man , before the beginning of the worlde .

And now touching his liberallitie , what Prince in the world from the East to the West , hath power to doo the like ? Firste , he hath giuen vs the world frankely to liue in , and all the creatures therein contayned , to be at our com●●ndement : he féedes vs , he cloathes vs , he prouides vs h●rbor , he hath giuen generally all the world , and all things therein . What can be more wished ? or who euer was so liberall ? Lastely , the strongest that euer was , like case he is : for at his woorde , bothe Heauen and the Earth shall faile , the Mountaines fall , yea , and the Seas ●●ell abooue the toppes of the same . So that our God is inuincible , and his woorkes not to be wondred at , but praysed .

And therefore Sir , now confesse your selfe subdued , for Looue héere got the vpper hande of Learning : how say you ? can you denie this ? haue I not prooued it bothe by Philosophie , and also by Diuinitie

Scholler .

〈…〉 I muste commend 〈…〉 , for Looue in déede , in this 〈…〉 to L●●rning . For that the : same Looue hath no ende , no● knew no beginning : And therefore it must 〈…〉 orriginall of Learning .

Ladie .

Well , I am glad yet that one so simple as I , haue confused 〈◊〉 a Scholler , I well may 〈…〉 this victorye . But yet for 〈…〉 ●●e that you haue doone vnto me , in this our longe 〈◊〉 ▪ I will conceale the conquest to my selfe , vpon condition that you shall counte your selfe conquered . For I would not ingratefully requite you , in consideration , that the cause of this long conf●rence was onely through my meane : and therefore Sir , take it in good parte I ●ray you , that I séemed so homely with you , for I honour the Learned ●nd looue them as my life .

Scholler .

〈◊〉 ▪ if ought in me yet 〈◊〉 , hath brought liking to your honour : I am glad you fo●nde me héere so luckily : And as for your conquest , of trothe I muste confesse you haue 〈…〉 it : and therefore by deserte , you may best make boaste thereof . But if héereafter , when opportunitie shall permitte , it be 〈…〉 to vse the like : I rest at your ●●mmaunde in any thing I 〈…〉 .

Ladie .

Sir ▪ 〈…〉 you , and for that I sée 〈…〉 ●●●teth , I leaue you to your fo●mer exercise : in hope héereafter you wyll not inuaye against Looue . And thus good Sir fare you well , when I haue the like occasion : I will not make dainty in 〈◊〉 of your company .

Scholler .

Nor I ( Madame ) 〈◊〉 straunge , in performing your 〈◊〉 .

〈…〉

FINIS . A. M.