Then we turning to the auditorie , sayd , that seeing all the printed Bookes of Luther extant , that we could finde , doe conteine such commendations of Saint Iames Epistle as they had heard , and that Master Campion hath charged Luther so contrarily to all his printed bookes , wherein he commendeth that Epistle , and therby also chargeth vs as reiecting it , who euer haue receiued it : they might , we said , take Master Campions trueth and synceritie to be as it is , vntill he haue brought out his copies from the Emperour and the Duke of Bauaria , which he nor any liuing we beleeue can euer doe .

But Master Campion said , that might he haue his own bookes from Oxeforde , he woulde shewe that in Luther , which he had written of him .

Whereunto it was answered , that if he woulde let vs knowe where they were , we would become humble suters to their honors , that he might both enioye his bookes , and that the partie who had them in keeping might be without daunger . But this woulde he not consent vnto .

Then Hart one of his fellowes saide , that he being at Rome , heard Bellarminus the reader of controuersies there affirme , that the wordes reported by Campion in his booke were in that preface of Luther , and that therefore vpon his worde it was so .

Whereunto we answered , that neither his wordes , nor the testimonie of Bellarminus were of sufficient credite to carry away such a matter as that was without better proofe , specially so many and most manifest proofes in Luthers printed bookes being to the contrarie , who agreeth with vs in allowing the said Epistle , and that therefore Master Campion hath most impudently alleadged this place of Luther , as a profe that we should reiect S. Iames Epistle .

Then Master Beale said , It is not materiall to vs , if Luther had once so written : but he asked Master Campion whether euer he did read him selfe any such wordes in Luther , as he in his booke doeth charge him with , or not ?

Whereto he answered , that in a treatise made by Doctor Lee , sometime Archbishoppe of Yorke , against that booke of Luther intituled De captiuitate Babilonica , he had read these wordes alleadged , as he had set them downe in his booke .

Being againe asked , whether either vpon his othe , or vpon his credit , he would say to the presence there assembled , that he had euer seene the places alleaged by him in his booke : and whether he knewe them to be true ?

He answered , that he wrote his booke as he traueiled , and that he coulde not , we knewe , cary a librarie about with him , and therefore he was forced to giue credite to his notes .

We said it was more credible , that he brought the saide booke ouer with him , readie framed by the common and long conference of him selfe , and his fellowe Iesuites at conuenient opportunitie suddenly to be published , rather then that he did write it in his trauels , hauing so much besides to do , & being destitute of his librarie as he said , which is the vsual maner ( as we said ) of you all , hunting thereby for popular praise of speedie writing . But when & howsoeuer you did write your booke said we , you haue vsed ouermuch boldnes , so confidently to publish in print these slaunderous reportes of such men as you haue named , being not able to make any proofe of that , wherof you accuse them . And vpon these such good grounds of yours , you doe most vnreasonably and vntruly charge vs all , as those that haue rased , mangled and spoyled the body of the holy Bible .

The third testimonie or proofe alleaged against vs by Master Campion in his booke , is taken out of the Centuries , written by Illiricus , and others : which booke being giuen into his handes , and the like demaunde made as before , he would neither reade , nor once open the booke , neither yet made he any answere thereto , knowing that he could make no exception to the print , as he did before to Luthers bookes , seeing that booke was neuer printed but once .

And besides , where they as Historiographers , had only set down the iudgements of S. Hierome , Eusebius , Epiphanius , and of other ancient fathers concerning this Epistle of Saint Iames , of Tobias , the bookes of Macchabees , &c: he knewe that he could not thereby proue his assertion , that they suddenly cut away so many goodly partes of the holy Bible , much lesse that we had so done , as he doeth in his booke charge vs . For which causes chiefly , he would not as much as once open those bookes , and for the same cause , he woulde not looke vpon Kemnisius , whome , and vs by him , he had likewise falsely charged .

When Master Campion could not shew these words , out of any of those books by him alleaged , nor any good matter to proue them , nor vs suddenly to haue rased , mangled and spoyled the holy Scriptures , as he chargeth vs of desperation in our cause , to haue done : then did we shewe him , that we had not nowe suddenly ( as he vntruely reported ) cut off any part or line of the body of the holy Scriptures , but made onely a difference betweene those bookes of the Scriptures , that be commonly called Canonicall , and of all men be taken for vndoubtedly true , from those that haue bene long ago suspected of many , and are called Apocrypha , according as was before set downe by the ancient Doctors of the Church , aboue a thousand yeres since & more . And for the proofe hereof , we alleaged the testimonie of Saint Hierome , In Catalogo Scriptorum ecclesiasticorum , where he thus writes of the Epistle S. Hieromes wordes . of Saint Iames named by Master Campion : The Epistle of Saint Iames , is sayd to be published , by some other man vnder his name . And of the second Epistle of Saint Peter he saith in the same booke , that it is denied of many to be his , by reason of the difference of the stile .

To this Master Campion answered , that Hierome spake not of his owne iudgement , but reported what others sayde of them .

We answered , if Saint Hierome so reported of other mens sayings of those Epistles , and did not him selfe gainesay it , that it was a manifest token , that he did not greatly mislike their sayings . And seeing in S. Hieromes time and before , those Epistles were doubted of , you doe vs great wrong sayd we , to charge vs that we haue suddenly cut them off from the body of the Bible , who in deede notwithstanding the former doubtes of them , gladly receaue and allowe them . We alleaged againe S. Hierome , In Prologo Galeato , et Epistola ad Paulinum , where hee sheweth his owne iudgement , what bookes of the Scriptures of the olde Testament are to be taken for Canonicall , and which haue bene doubted of : which Epistles ( quoth we ) haue bene written and printed in all Bibles , by the space of these thousand yeres and more , to warne al readers of that difference of the said Apocrypha , from the true Canonicall : and to arme them as it were against the errour of confounding the Canonical Scriptures with these Apocrypha : for the which cause as it seemeth , hee also nameth that Prologue Galeatum , as an helmet for defence against that error . But nowe sitchence the Tridentine Councill , some Popish printers haue left out the sayd Prologue and Epistle of S. Hierome , who yet declareth this his iudgement likewise , in his Preface to the first booke of Esdras also .

Sherwin one of Master Campions fellowes , answered to these allegations , that Hierome did Iudaizare , and more was not ●…ayd to these places .

We also alleadged Eusebius , who hauing made rehearsall of those bookes of the newe Testament , which be vndoubtedly true , nameth also such as were gainesayd , and writes thus : Quibus vero Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 25. contradicitur , &c. those bookes that are gainesayde , though they be knowen to many , be these : The Epistle which is attributed to S. Iames , the Epistle of Iude , the latter of Peter , & the second Euseb. lib. 2. cap. 23. and third of Iohn . And the same Eusebius in another place affirmeth plainely , the sayd Epistle of S. Iames , to be a counterfaite or bastard Epistle . Adulterinam .

To this authoritie they said that it was true that he so said , and as we alleadged them , and that when he wrote , it was lawfull for any man to doubt of those bookes , that he called Apocrypha : but seeing by the Church ( that was by the Councill of Carthage , & now also by the Councill of Trident ) they were receiued for Canonicall , it was blasphemie , they said , to doubt of the authoritie of those bookes .

To that was replied , that the Synode of Laodicea , helde them for Apocrypha .

Yea said they , but that Synode was not generall .

No more was that of Carthage said we .

No said they , but that of Carthage was after confirmed by a generall Councill in Trullo .

So was ( quoth we ) the Synode of Laodicea , which helde them for Apocrypha , confirmed also by the same generall Councill in Trullo , as there is to be seene . But howe doth this agree , that not long before you did saye absolutely , that S. Iames epistle was written by the same spirit that S. Iohns Gospell was written with , and now you ground the credit of S. Iames Epistle and the other vpon these Councils :

But said we , these Councils had no authoritie to make any maner writings Canonical , that was not before Canonicall . For , by the iudgement of S. Augustine in many places of his bookes , there August . contra Faustum . li. 28. cap. 2. & lib. 33 cap. 6. are two things requisite to proue any writing Canonicall : one is the testimonie of the Church , in which the authour liued when he wrote : The other is the continuall contestation of the Churches succeeding . To this effect writeth S. Augustine : and so be all latter Churches barred from authoritie to make any writings canonicall scripture , specially those that haue of olde bene doubted of . They may testifie what the olde Churches before them haue done , as we nowe doe .

Hereunto they saide againe , that it was blasphemie after those Councils to call those bookes Apocrypha , or to doubt of the authoritie of them .

It is rather most horrible blasphemie said we , to make humane writings equall with the Canonicall scriptures , ( as of late your Tridentine Councill hath done , and as your Pope being but one Distinct. 19. cap. In Canonicis . man hath made his Decretal epistles ) then with S. Hierome , Eusebius , and other ancient godly fathers , to call those bookes Apocrypha , which they do so call .

And we said , that notwithstanding those Councils , Caietanus their Popes Cardinall thought it no blasphemie , who in the ende of his expositions vpon the olde testament , in very plaine wordes , maketh the same difference of the bookes of the scriptures , & doeth not onely alowe the iudgement of Hierome , but addeth further , that all writitings , yea of bishops of Rome them selues , of whome he nameth some , must be brought to S. Hieroms rule . Ad norm●… Hieronimi .

They vtterly reiected Cardinall Caietanus , because ( as they said ) he was but one man against all the Church .

We said , you of your side will not be charged with the wordes of others , though they be the Popes Cardinals , and yet you doe thinke it reason , that we should be charged with euery worde , that hath slipped from Luther . Nay you charge him , and vs by him , with that which you can neuer proue , that he did write or speake .

Hart said further , that Caietanus was a good scholeman and traueled in that course with commendation : but when hee began to become an expositor of the scriptures , said he , then he lost his grace and credit .

We answered , if they thought it reason to charge vs with all the sayings of Luther , or of any other : we might by good and great reason , charge them with the sayings of so great & learned a Cardinall of Rome , as Caietanus was . Last of all wee came to the place of S. Augustine in his second booke De doctrina Christiana . August . De Doctrina Christian . lib. 2. ca. 8. Which Campion and his fellowes gladly receiued , because they said , it made for them and not for vs . For , saide they , S. Augustine rehearseth those bookes for Canonicall scriptures , which you call Apocrypha .

To this wee answered , that they shoulde rather charge Saint Hierome and Eusebius , and other auncient fathers , who doe call them Apocrypha . And S. Augustine in that place rehearsing the order of the bookes of scriptures , though , said we , he differ somwhat from Eusebius and S. Hierome in shewe of wordes : yet hee doeth in deede agree with them . For where they deuide the bookes of the scriptures into three sorts , that is , Canonicall , Apocrypha and feigned or vntrue : Augustine deuideth them , into Canonicall and Apocrypha onely : and then he deuideth the Canonicall bookes into two sortes , that is , those that be certainely true ( which we with S. Hierome and Eusebius , do call properly Canonicall ) and those that haue bene doubted of , which Eusebius and S. Hierome do call Apocrypha . And S. Augustine nameth those that be vtterly vntrue , Apocrypha , which Eusebius calleth doubtfull , feigned and forged . Euseb. lib. 3. cap. 25. dubia , ficta , adulterina . August . de Ciuit . Dei . lib. 15. cap. 23. & contra 2. Gaudent . Epist. lib. 2. cap. 23. Testes Domini . And this may be gathered out of Augustine him selfe in diuers places , whereof we haue noted some . And albeit Augustine calleth those bookes Canonicall , yet he giueth not the like authoritie to them , as namely to the Maccabees , and to the other of that sort , as he doeth to those that be Christes the Lords witnesses , as he nameth them , which be these that are named properly Canonicall . Here would they not admit in any wise , that the worde Canonicall was aequiuocum , or of diuers significations in diuers places : but that wheresoeuer that worde was founde , it brought all bookes so called vnder one kinde . Much time was spent here about , and the matter was much argued on Master Campion and his fellowes part . At the last Master Campion was desired by vs , to reade the chapter in that Canon law , beginning In Canonicis , which Gratian takes out of this place of Augustine : and first that hee Distinct. 19. cap. In Canonicis . would reade the rubrick , which he seemed both to do . And Pound one of his companions sitting by ( who with his importunitie & impertinent speaches , had often interrupted the course of the conference ) saide , Father Campion , let them reade their places them selues . Yet at the length Master Campion read it , and it is thus . Inter Canonicas scripturas , Decretales Epistolae connumerantur : which after much desiring he englished also . The decretall Epistles are numbred together among the Canonicall Scriptures .

Whereupon one of vs saide , you charge vs with blasphemie , for naming those bookes Apocrypha , which Saint Hierome , Eusebius , and other ancient holy fathers doe so name : but here may you see most horrible blasphemie in deede , in the Canonical lawe of your Pope , which matcheth his Decretall Epistles ( that is meere fables ) with the Maiestie of the Canonicall Scriptures , as he doeth in this distinction , and sundry other places , whereby you may see to what point this boldnesse of making mens writings Canonicall Scriptures is come .

Then saide we to M. Campion , do you hold that Popes decrees for Canonical scriptures ? as you do the bookes of Moyses and the Prophets ?

He answered no : and graunted then that the worde Canonicall , was aequinocum or of diuers significations , which before they all did so constantly denie .

Whereupon we sayde that we had some good hope of Master Campion , for that he blushed . And we sayde further that Cardinall Caietanus in the place before alleadged , sayeth expressely that S. Augustine placed those books in the Canon of maners , but not in the Canon of doctrine , whereby he plainely declareth that the word Canonicall is aequiuocum .

After this he was desired to reade the text of that Chapter , and there he founde and could not denie , but that the place of Augustine was vntruely reported by Gratian , and by manifest corruption drawen altogether from the meaning of Augustine . For where S. S. Augustines wordes . Augustine saith , that those Scriptures are to be taken for Canonicall , which the most or greatest part of Christian Churches so take , among the which those Churches be , which deserued to haue Apostolique Seas , and to receiue Epistles from the Apostles : these wordes of S. Augustine are chaunged , and in the The report of them . Distinct. 19. Cap. de Canonicis . place of the Apostolique Seas , is put the Apostolique Sea , ( meaning the Church of Rome ) and those Churches which deserued to receaue Epistles from the said Church of Rome : which is cleane contrary to S. Augustines wordes and meaning .

Both often before , and here specially , Master Campion and his fellowes seemed to be desirous to dispute vpon some pointes of religion , rather then to continue in this examination of his booke , which we said we woulde not at afternoone refuse , but the forenoone ( qd we ) is so farre spent , that we must at this time make an ende . And then turning vs to the auditorie , we said : You haue heard howe Master Campion in his printed booke , hath charged vs as rasers , manglers and spoylers of the holy Scriptures , of meere desperation and distrust in our cause , as he saith . You haue heard how he would proue vs so to be , by certeine places by him in his said printed booke noted , as being the wordes of Luther and others in their bookes . You haue heard and seene proued by the bookes them selues , that there is no such thing to be founde in those places of their bookes as he hath set downe : but onely that S. Hierome , and Eusebius aboue a thousande yeere sithen , doubted of the authoritie of those Epistles & bookes . And you haue heard , and it is vniuersally knowen , that S. Hieroms Prologue and Epistle , wherein he noteth those bookes to Hierom. Prolog . Galeat . & epistola ad Paulinum . be Apocrypha , haue bene ioyned with all Bibles that haue bene written and printed euer since S. Hieromes time , by the space of a xi . hundred yeeres and more , vntill now of late sithen the Tridentine Councill , some Popish Printers haue left them out . And you haue heard , that not onely now of late , the Councill Tridentine hath made the Apocrypha of equal authoritie with the vndoubted Canonical scriptures : but also that it is set down in the B. of Romes Canon law , that his Decretal epistles are to be numbred together among the Canonical scriptures : & so finally you see what iniurie these men do themselues to the holy scriptures , & what blasphemy they haue committed , in matching their fables with the Canonical scriptures , who do most vniustly charge vs with those crimes .

Sherwin said , but you should haue told withall , what we haue answered to all those pointes .

We said , your answere is to be looked for , when you can bring foorth your copies which you speake of , and promised : for in any bookes by you named , & extant and to be had , there is nothing of that which M. Campion hath set downe to be found . And here the time being spent we made an end for that forenoones conference .