A How now neighbour , haue I found you crouching to a Crucifixe ?

Sir , I am to conferre with you .

To conferre with me ? What authoritie haue you ?

I haue authoritie sufficient : for it was decreed in the late Synode holden at London , that b b Synod . Lond●nens . cau . 66. euerie Minister being a Preacher , and hauing any Popish Recusant or Recusants in his Parish , and thought fit ●y the Bishop of the Diocesse shal labour with them diligently from time to time , thereby to reclaime them from their errors .

Well , let me make an end of my prayers , and then I will come and conferre with you .

No neighbour , God loueth alacritie in his worke ; excuses he much disliketh . The delay that Elizeus made , let me go kisse my father ; and those shifts in the Gospell , let mee goe burie my father , or take leaue of my frinds , are not admitted in the Lords businesse : noe more is this of yours , let mee make an ende of my prayers .

I pray you intreate me not : for I dare not giue you leaue to commit idolatrie .

Idolatrie ? do you charge me with idolatrie ?

It is an old saying , and I see that it is true , not onely in corporall whoredome , but inspirituall c c Prou. 30. 20 an adulterous woman eateth ; and after wipeth her mouth , and saith , I haue not committed iniquitie . With what face can you denie your selfe to be an idolater ? haue I not taken you in ipso facto ?

You haue taken me indeede praying before a crucifixe ; but I hope you account not that Idolatrie .

Yes , Saint Ambrose telleth you , that to worship the Crucifixe is grosse idolatrie : and before him d Ambros . de obitu Theodo●● . Arnobius made this answer in the behalfe of all true Christians : e e Arnob. aduers Gentes , lib. 8. Cruces nec colimus nec optamus : vos plane quiligneos deos consecratis , cruces ligneas , vt deorum vestrorum partes , forsitan adoratis : We neither worshippe crosses , nor wish for them , you that consecrate woodden Gods , ● Chaz●s crux est NicephorM . lib , 18. cap. 54. de happily adore woodden Crosses , as parts of your Gods . In a word , you may as iustly be tearmed * Chazinzarij & Staurolatrae , as the Armenij ▪ for you worshippe the f Euthymius in Panoplia , et Nicephor , H●s●●ib , 18 cap , 54 , Crosse of Christ as well as they .

No we worship not the Crosse it selfe , but Christ h Alexand. de Hales , part 3 , quaest , 30 art , v●t , that was crucified on the Crosse .

i Greg , de , Valentia , tom , 3 , de ●d● lolat. punct , 6 , ᵏ B●liarm . de i. mag. lib , 2. ca. 23 Yes , g g Them . Aquin , part 3. quest , 25 art. 4. Thomas Aquinas , Alexander de Hales , Gregorie de Valentia , and the rest of your chiefest doctors doe teach , that Crucifixes are to bee worshipped with the very same worship , wherewith Christ himselfe is to be worshipped .

I Aunswere with Cardinall Bellarmine , that albeit Crucifixes are to be worshipped with the same worship ; yet is it with respect to Christ ; and that the worship passeth by the image to him .

This shift will not serue your turne ; for to co-adore the crucifixe with CHRIST , is palpable Idolatrie , as may bee prooued by the determination of the Councell of Ephe●u● .

Nestorius conceiued the manhood of Christ to be a distinct person from the word , or sonne of GOD : and withall he framed a co-adoration whereby this manhood was to be adored with the word . Now the Counsell of Ephesus condemned this co-adoration : in like sort may we condemne your coa-doration of the crucifixe with Christ . But to leaue this particular , why did you bow your knees , and lift vp your eyes , and handes to the crucifixe ?

Why may I not ?

Why ? because God requireth this outward honour of eyes , hands and knees as due to him alone , l l Isay , 45. 2● I haue sworne ( saith hee ) by my selfe : the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousnesse : and shall not returne , that euery knee shall bowe vnto me . m m Ephes , 3 , 14 , For this cause , ( saith n Lamen , 3 , 48 . Paul ) I bowe my knees vnto the father of our Lord Iesus Christ . Let vt lift vp our hearts with our hands ( saith the Prophet Hieremie ) to God in the heauens . And o o Psal. 123 , ● . I ( saith the Psalmist ) lift vp mine eyes to thee , that dwellest in the heauens ▪

God alloweth parents and Magistrates that present his person in blessing and iudging , to haue some part of his externall honour : and in that respect doe wee lift vp our hands to them , and bow our knees before them . But as for Images , God himselfe hath made a flat prohibition , that they shall haue no part of his honour , p p Exod , 20 , 5. Thou shalt not ( saith hee ) bowe downe to them .

But I pray you Sir , what is the principal cause that moueth you , to keepe this crucifixe in your house ?

Truely to pu● me in remembrance of Christs bitter passion forr ʸ sinnes ; and to stirre vp my selfe to sorrow , compassion and teares , by considering the pitifull handling of Christ vpon the Crosse .

I cannot but iudge you to be not onely verie dull , but wicked , that cannot remember Christ crucified , except you haue a crucifixe before your eyes , to kindle your appetite , and to moue your heart with such a carnall commiseration and pitie , as wee often finde in our selues , when wee see deserued torments inflicted vpon malefactours . Let mee therefore intreate you , to content your selfe with such meanes as God himselfe hath commended vnto you ▪ therby daiely to renue the memorie of your redemption ; and not to deuise such your selfe , as serue onely to prouoke you to a naturall and humane affection .

What meanes hath God commanded vnto vs , to put vs in minde of the passions of Christ .

Truely , the true preaching of the word of God , & the right administration of the Sacraments .

Is there any representation of Christes passion in these two ?

Yes , there is as liuely a representation of the passion of Christ , in the preaching of the word and in the administration of the Lords Supper , as if Christ were yet in crucifying , and as though his precious blood were now distilling from his hands , and sides . This appeareth by the verie words of the Apostle Saint Paul , who taxeth the Galathians , saying : q q Gal , 3. O foolish Galathians who hath bewitched you , that yee should not obey the truth : to whome Iesus Christ before was described in your sight , and among you crucrified , that is , to whome was preached the doctrine of saluation by Christ , in as liuely and euident manner , as if Christ had beene painted with orient colours before your eyes , and crucified , in , or among you . As for the administration of the Lords Supper , the same Apostle telleth you , that , r r Cor , ii , 23 24. 25 the Lord Iesus in the night that he was betrayed , tooke bread : and when he had giuen thankes , hee brake it , and said , take eate : this is my body , which is broken for you : this do ye in remembrance of me . Hee said not , keepe y● Crucifixes in your houses in remembrance of me .

Although he said not so ; yet I see no reason , but that we may as lawfully paint Christ in our houses with colours , as you paint him with wordes in Sermons , and in the administration of the Lords Supper :

Sir , there is not the like reason : for the Lord alloweth the one , namely the description of Christ in speech , and in the administration of the Lords Supper . But the other , to wit , the caruing or painting of his image in your houses , and that for a religious vse ▪ hee vtterly condemneth in the twentie of Exodus , saying : s s Exod , 20. 4. Thou shall make thee no grauen Image , neither any similitude of things that are in heauen aboue , neither that are in the earth beneath , nor that are in the waters vnder the earth .

But I maruaile , that you stand thus in defence of Images , seeing that all the ancient fathers , whome you pretende to bee on your side , doe in expresse words condemne the vse of them : & are so farre from teaching you with your late writers , that images are Lay-mens bookes , as that they tell you with the t t Haba. 2 , 18 Prophet HABACVK , that they are teachers of lies .

Do the ancient fathers condemne the use of Images ? Which of them I pray you ?

Clemens Alexandrinus speaking of his time , saith this v v Clemens , Alexand . orat , exh●●tat , ad Gentes , et in 6 , Strom. not is non est ●nago sensilis de materia sensili , sed quae percipit●r intelligentia ▪ &c. With vs there is no Image that is materiall , and seene with eyes , but onely such as is perceiued by the vnderstanding and inwardman , because that God , who is the onely true God , is apprehended by the vnderstanding and inwarde man , and not by the outwarde sences .

And of the same minde is the other Clement , as appeareth by these his words x x Clemens epis● Rom , de Ia●ob fratre Dom , lib. 5 runne not vnto these Images of wood and stone , to honour pictures and images , that haue no soule . Againe , this is nothing else but the suggestion of the old serpent , who maketh you beleeue , that you are very devout , when you honour the insensible things . Yea , hee cryeth out saying ; What manner of impietie , and how great ingratitude is it to receiue the benefit from God , and to giue thanks vnto sticks and stones .

Tertullian likewise saith , that y y Tertul. de cor. mil. it is great indignity , that the Image of the liuing God , should be translated into the Image of an Idoll , or of a thing that is dead . And answering an vsuall obiection , hee saith : z z Tertul. de id●●a● It is noe hurt that the same God by his law forbad a similitude , to bee made , and by an extraordinary precept commanded the similitude of the brasen serpent to be set vp . If thou wilt obey God , thou hast his law , make thee no similitude . If thou looke to the precept that was giuen after for making a similitude , then see thou imitate Moses ▪ make no image against the law , vnlesse God bid thee as he badde Moses .

Although the Councell of Eleb●ris did banish Images out of their Churches , and would not suffer them to be adored : yet the second Councell of Nice did authorize both the hauing of them , and the adoring of them .

What tell you me of the second Councell of Nice ? that Councell was not helde till almost eight hundreth yeares after Christ . Secondly , I aunswere you that their authorizement of images wanted vniuersalitie : for there was shortly after a Synode of the Bishops of France , Italie and Germanie ( in which Charles the great , and the Legates of the Bishop of Rome were present ) that condemned the seconde Councel of Nice , as hereticall .

How proue you that ?

I proue it by the testimonie of Huicmarus Archbishop of Rhemes who liued when these things were fresh in memorie . His testimonie is this . k k Huicmarus Rhemens. c●nt● Hui●mar . Ian da●ensi ▪ episc . cap 20 The seuenth generall Counsell so called by the Graecians ( indeed a wicked Counsell ) touching Images , which some would haue to bee broken in pieces , and some to be worshipped , was kept not long before my time , by a number of Bishops gathered together at Nice , and sent to Rome , which also the Bishop of Rome directed into France . Wherefore in the raigne of Charles the great ( and the see Apostolicke willing it so to be ) a generall Councell was kept in Germanie , by the conuocation of the said Emperour , and there by the rule of the s●ripture , and doctrine of the fathers , the false Councill of the Graecians was confuted , and vtterly retected : of the confutation whereof was a good bigge booke sent to Rome by certaine Bishops from Charles , which in my young yeares I read in the Palace .

Thus you see , howe that Images were not established in Churches in these west partes of the Worlde , till almost eight hundreth yeares after Christ .

No , they were not publikely receiued in the Church till aboue seuen hundred yeares after Christ : for it was not decreede till about that time , that the image of Christ should be set vp , p p Synod Trullens . ●an. 82 , proveteri agno , ( that is ) in the Roome of Agnus Dei. As for the ancient fathers that you alledge to proue the contrarie ; they speake not of the formed Crucifixe , but of the reall Crucifixe , thatis , of Christ himselfe crucified vppon his owne proper Crosse .

To make an ende nowe of this dayes conference , Iexhort you , as Saint Paul did his auditors at Lystra , to turne , q q Act. 14. 15 , 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 〈◊〉 , from these vaine , foolish and paltry Idols . And to breake this your Crucifixe in peeces , and the rest of your Images .

Breake my Crucifixe in peeces ? marry God forbid .

If you will not , I will .

Yes , see here .

What reason is there , that you should thus breake my Crucifixe in peeces ?

Truely , great reasons : for it is Gods commandement , that we should r r Exod , 34. 13. ouerthrow the altars of idolaters and breake , their images in peeces , and cut downe their groues : Wee haue also the examples of sundrie godly men , as fit paternes for our imitation herein . To beginne with Moses , s s Exod. 32 20 , Hee tooke the Calse which the Israelites had made , and burned it in the sire , and ground it vnto powder , and strewed it vpon the water , and made the children of Israil drinke of it .

Hezekiah likewise t t 2 , reg. 13. 4. tooke away the high places , and brake the images and cut downe the groues , and brake in peeces the brasen serpent that Moses had made , and called it Neh●shtan that is , a peece of brasle .

Loe heere you see , that though the brasen Serpent was an ordinance of God a figure of Christ , and a monument of the Israelites deliuerance from fierie Serpents in the Wildernesse , yet when it was abused to idolatrie , this good King brake it in peeces , and ( not thinking it worthie to be called a Serpent ) called it ( by contempt ) Nehushtan , a peece of brasse .

Yea but Epiphanius also , though he was no King ; yet finding a painted cloth in the Church of Anabletha by Ierusalem , he did v v Epiphan. epist an Iohan. Hierosolymit . ( as he himself reporteth ) teare it in pieces , and pronounced that painted imagery , notwithstanding it represented Christ or one of the Saints , to be quite contrarie to the sacred scriptures . And thus for this time I leaue you ; trusting that you will not impute that to mee as a vice , which in Epiphanius is accounted as a vertue .

I cannot but impute thi● vnto you as a vice ; because it appeareth hereby , that you are an enemie to the Crosse of Christ , and are ashamed thereof .

No sir , x x August . de verbu Apost. ●erm , 8 Non pudet nos crucifixi ; sed in parte vbi signum pudoris cst , signum crucis eins habemus . Wee are not ashamed of him that was crucified ; but in that part where the signe of shame is , haue we the signe of the Crosse . And for mine owne part , y y Aug , in Psa. 141 , Vsque adeo de cruce non erubesco , vt non in occulto loco habeam crucem Christi , sed in fronte portem : I am so little ashamed of the Crosse of Christ , as that I beare it , not in a secret place , but in my forhead . Yea , I am so farre from playing either the * * Insultet P●ga ●us 〈◊〉 Christe , videam ego in front ●as r●gum ciucens Christi , Aug. in Psalm , 141. Pagan or Puritane , as that when I Baptize any , z z Iu●●●us Martyral Orth●●oxos , a● quest , 118 a Bu●er . Dextramanu in nomine Christi eos consigno . With my right and ●●gne then , in the ●ame of Christ . a Signum hoc nontam quo● est vsu● inecclesits anti quissimi , quam quod est adm●●um simplex , & praese t is admonitionis crucis Christi , adhiheri neciu decens necinuttle existimo si adhibeatur modo pure intellectum & religiose excipiatur , nulla superstitione adiuncta , &c. And I holde it neither vnseemely , nor vnprofitable , that the signe of the Crosse should be vsed in Baptisme , not so much , because it is of that long time and continuance in the Church , as that it is of so good vse , and tendeth to such good end , as being most simple and of present admonition , as putting vs in mind of the Crosse of Christ , so it be rightly vnderstood and religiously intertained , wihout any addition of superstition ,