THe Preface shewing what vtility disputation may bring , for discussion of matters in controuersy ; and how farre : togeather with the causes , why the reuiew of these ten disputations is now published .

1. Often publike disputations , recounted by Iohn Fox to haue byn held in England , about controuersies in Religion , especially concerninge the blessed Sacrament of the Altar , within the space of foure yeares , at two seuerall changes of Religion vnder K. Edward and Q. Mary ; besides many other more particular , held in Bishops consistoryes and other places about the same matters . CHAP. I.

2. The state of the cheife question handled in the forsaid disputations , concerninge the Reall presence , Transubstantiation , and the Sacrifice of the Masse ; with the cheese grounds that be on eyther side . CHAP. II.

3. Certayne obseruations to be noted , for better answeringe of hereticall cauillations against the forsaid articles . CHAP. III.

4. The examination of such arguments , as in the former disputations were alleaged by the Zivinglians and Caluinists , against the Reall presence of Christs body in the Sacrament . CHAP. IV.

5. What Catholike arguments were alleaged in these disputations for the reall presence : & how they were answered or shifted of by the Protestants . CHAP. V.

6. Of two other articles about Transubstantiation , and the Sacrament of the Altar , what passed in this disputation . CHPP. VI.

THAT disputation is a good meanes and profitable instrument , to examine and try out truth , euen in matters of faith , yf yt be rightly vsed , & with due circumstances , no man can deny ; for that experience in Gods Church doth teach yt , to witt , that great vtility hath often-tymes byn receaued by such disputations : and we read amonge other examples , that in the tyme of Antoninus the Emperour sonne of Seuerus , that died in Yorke , a little more then a hundred yeares after Christ , the Montanists heresy , who were called also Cataphrigians , growing strong , and drawinge to it diuers pricipall men , and namely Tertullian , with the admiration of the whole world ; one Caius a Cath man most excellently learned , and of rare and vertuous Anno Domini 215. life , tooke vpon him to dispute publikely in Rome in the presence of the whole Church , with licence of Zepherinus the Pope , against a chiefe principall man of that sect called Proclus , and so confounded him therin , as from that day forward the sect began greatly to decline ; of which disputation do make mention both Eusebius & S. Hierome , & yt did Euseb. l. 6. hist. c. 14. Hier. de vir . Illust. in Caio . much profitt that Catholike cause .

2. And about 2. hundred yeares after this againe , we read of another profitable disputation held in our countrey , by S. Germanus & his fellowes , French Bishopps , with the Brittish Pelagians vpon the yeare of Bed . l. 1. hist. c. 14. & Const. presbyt. in vita S. Lupi episc . Christ 429. wherby they were so confuted , as also with the miracles wrought by S. German , by certaine reliques brought from Rome , as their heresie neuer prospered there afterward , but was soone extinguished . We read in like manner of diuers publike conflicts & disputations , held by S. Austen with diuers learned heretiks of sundry sects , as namely with Fortunatus a Manichean priest , in the citty of Hippo in Africa , vpon the yeare 392. al the clergy & people being present , & publike notaryes appointed to set downe both their arguments : & the issue of this disputations was , that when the Manichean heretike could not answere , he said ( saith Possidonius ) secum suis maioribus collaturum , that he would conferre those difficultyes with his betters , & then if they could not satisfy him se animae suae consulturum , that he See the acts of this disputation in Possid . l. de vita Aug. c. 3. would haue care of his owne soule . But this care was ( saith the same Possidonius ) that he ranne away from the citty , and neuer appeared there againe . Which point S. Augustine himselfe obiecteth , in a certayne epistle , to another Manichee Aug. epist. 244. Priest , that came to succeed in Fortunatus his place in that citty , prouokinge him also to like disputation , but the heretike refused the combatt .

3. And after this againe , the said Father being now made Bishopp , vpon the yeare of Christ 405. he disputed publikely for two dayes togeather , with another principall Manichean heretike named Foelix , in presence of the whole people , notaryes being appointed on both sides to take their arguments . In S. Austens disputation with Foelix Manichaeus which disputation , S. Austen did so euidently conuince his aduersarie , as he in the end yelded ( a strange example in an heretike ) and renounced his heresie , and became a Catholike , whereby the Mauichean heresie was so shaken and discredited throughout all Africa , as no man euer openly afterward durst defend the same in disputation , but it vanished away by little and little , as a smoke when the fire is putt out . This whole disputation is to be seene at large in S. Austen , laid forth in two books of his de actis cum Faelice Manichaeo . And this for the Manicheans .

4. But with the Donatists and Arrians , he had many other like conflicts : as for example , vpon the yeare of Christ 411. there was a sollemne disputation held at Carthage S. Ausren his disputation with the Donatists . in Africa , for diuers daies togeather , betwene the Catholike and Donatist Bishopps , the Cath. Bishopps being in number 286. wherof the principall disputer was S. Austen Breuic . collat. primi diei . himselfe ; & of the Donatist Bishops 279. which sheweth the multitude of heretiks in those parts to haue byn great , notwithstandinge they had bin much diminished by Cath. Bishops labours and wrytings : for that 17. yeares before , there mett togeather against the Catholiks 400. Donatist Bishopps , exceptinge six : this disputation was before the Conte Marcellinus gouernour of that countrey , and publike notaryes were present to take the arguments on both sides , and all being ended the Iudge pronounced this sentence : Omnium documentorum manifestatione , à Catholicis Donatistas confutatos . Aug. in Breuic . That the Donatists were conuinced by the Catholiks , by the manifest truth of all kind of arguments . S. Augustine himselfe setteth forth a breefe relation of all that meeting & disputation , intituling yt Breuiculum . And in a certayne epistle of his testifieth moreouer of the euent , that albeit those miserable Epist. ad Gaudent . Bishops were not conuerted therby , but rather made more obstinate & obdurate : yet that many of their people were , & especially of the furious Circumcellians , that were ready to murder men vpon zeale of their heresie .

5. I lett passe another disputation which the said Father had , some 10. or 11. yeares after that , by the order of Pope Zozimus of Rome , in the Citty of Caesarea in Mauritania , with one Emeritus a Donatist B. of that Citty ; all the whole people of the Citty , togeather with diuers Bishopps , being present ; but little good could be done with him , his obstinacy was so great and peruerse . Acta apud Aug. ep. 157. & l. 2. Retract . c. 51. & Possidon . in vita Aug. c. 14. The acts of that disputation are extant in S. Austen , & often mention therof is made by himselfe , & by Possidonius in his life . And this for the Donatists .

6. But with the Arrians I find the same Father to haue had sundry disputations also , as namely once vpon the yeare of Christ 422. the Gouernour Bonifacius , hauinge many Possid . ib. cap. 17. Gothes in his campe who were of the Arrian sect : they had also an Arrian Bishopp that gouerned them , named Maximinus , who in their opinion was very learned , and therfore they made instance , that he might dispute with S. Augustine , which the good Father accepted , for he refused none , and so they had their meetinge and disputation , S. Augustines disputations with the Atrians . and the acts thereof are extant in his works , togeather with a certaine booke of his owne added thervnto , for explication of diuers points , wherof these heretiks were wont to vaunt afterward , as though they had gott the victory ; which happened to the same Father in another combatt , held the very same yeare , with one Conte Pascentius of the same Arrian sect , who was cheefe fifchall or treasourer of the Emperor , and most arrogantlie chalenged to dispute with S. Austen , but yet in priuate & without notaryes , in respect of the Emperiall lawes , that did forbidd publike disputations in fauour of sects and heresies . Which disputation S. Augustine accepted ; and the same was held priuatly , in the presence of many noble and learned men , but the heretikes Aug. epist. 73. 74. 75. 76. 77. would not yeld , but rather published soone after ( as their fashion is ) that they had the victory , which S. Austen was forced to refute by many seuerall epistles , and by settinge forth the disputation it selfe , as yt is to be seene in his works .

7. And this may suffice for a tast of some disputations , held at diuers tymes and in diuers countreyes , with heretiks of sundry sects in the ancient Church : And I might recite Photius in Bibliotheca . many more , as that of Maximus a learned Catholike monke in Africa , Anastasius hoc anno . who vpon the yeare of Christ 645. held a very famous disputation against one Pyrrhus , Archbishop of Constantinople , a great pillar of those heretiks called Monothelits , that held one only will , and not two to be in Christ our Sauiour , which disputation being made in the presence of many Bishopps , and of the gouernour of that Country , named Gregorius Patricius , the hereticall Archbishopp was so confounded , as he left his heresie , went to Rome , and gaue vp a booke of his pennance to Pope Theodorus , and was receaued by him into the Catholike communion againe : and that was the euent of that disputation .

8. And not full 20. yeares after this againe , to witt vpon the yeare 664. was that great disputation also in England , betwene the English and scottish Bishops , about the obseruation of Easter , in the presence of two Kings Oswyn and Egfrid his sonne , Kinges of Northumberland Beda l. 3. h●st . cap. 25. and of the Mercians : the cheefe disputers , on the Scottish Bishopps parte , were Colman and Cedda , and of the English , Agilbertus Bishopp of the Westsaxons and Wilfrid : and the issue of this disputation was , that Kings Oswyn was conuerted to the vnion of the Roman Church , and caused the vse thereof to be practized in his countrey .

9. And so we see by these examples , and many more that might be alleaged , that disputations in points of Religion are sometymes necessary , & do much good , when they are taken in hand with equall and due conditions , and conuenient lawes for indifferency in tryinge out the truth , for that otherwayes they may be pernicious , & haue byn refused by ancient Fathers , as we read of one reiected by Saint Ambrose in Milayne , vpon the yeare Publike disputation refused by S. Ambros. vpon iust causes . of Christ 286. when Auxentius the Arrian-Bishopp , being puffed vp with pride & arrogancy , by the fauour of the Empresse Iustina , infected with the same heresy , had not only prouoked S. Ambrose to publike disputation , but had further procured that Valentinian the yong Emperour , being yet a child , & not baptized but only Cathecumenus , did make a publike edict , to commaund the said disputations to be held vpon such a day , in his publike court or consistorie , before himselfe & the said Empresse , certaine learned Pagans and Iewes being appointed for iudges in that matter . But S. Ambrose , by the counsell of diuers Bishopps gathered togeather with him , refused to come to those disputations , wryting a booke to the Emperour Valentinian for his Ambros. epist. 31. where is extant also the booke sent by Ambrose to Valentinian . excuse , shewinge the iniustice and vnequality of the order , and of those tymes , and persuadinge him to recall the said law . And yf he would haue that controuersie in religion , betweene them and the Arrians , treated againe , he should follow therin the excellent example of his predecessor Constantine the great , who suffered Priests and Bishopps only to handle that matter in the Councell of Nice , and so was this disputation broken of : & presently there happened a thing of great admiration ( saith Paulinus in the life of S. Ambrose ) which was , Paul . in vita Ambrosij . that a certaine principall learned Arrian , acerrimus disputator ; & inconuertibilis ad fidem Catholicam , being a most eager disputer , and esteemed not possible to be conuerted to the Catholike faith ; being deceaued , at it seemeth , of his hope and expectation to dispute in this conflict , went to the Church , to heare at least what Ambrose could say out of the pulpit in his sermons : where seing an Angell to speake as it were in his eare , he was by that miracle not only conuerted to be a Catholike , but became also a most vehement defendor of that faith against the heretiks .

10. To returne then to our purpose of disputation , yt is of great moment , how , and in what tyme and place , and with what lawes and conditions they are made , wherof yow will see the proofe and experience also in these ten , that heere we are to present ; wherof six being The comparison betwene Cath & hereticall disputations . held vnder the gouernement of Protestants , and 4. vnder Catholike magistrates , yow shall see complaints on both sides of inequality vsed : but he that shall read and consider them in differently , and without passion , euen as they are sett downe by Fox himselfe ( for we could gett no other records therof for the present ) he shall easily see no small differences to appeare . For that the disputations both at Oxford and Cambridge in K. Henryes dayes , were only certaine ostentations of light skyrmishes a farre of , so vainly and fondly performed , as they haue no substance in them at all . And so he will see that shall read these examinations . The other vnder Queene Mary , though the first of them in the conuocation-house , wherin Protestants only were opponents , was not much vnlike the former for substance , or rather lacke of substance : yet the other three held in Oxford against Cranmer , Ridley and Latymer by Catholike disputers , are of a farre different kynd , as hauinge both iudges , notaryes , and arbitrators to the likinge of both parts appointed . And albeit in the manner of vrginge arguments , there want not complaints of the Protestant party , as after yow shall heare : for that diuers somtymes are said to haue spoken togeather , & one man to haue putt himselfe into the prosecution of another mans argument , somewhat disorderly as to them yt seemed : yet touchinge the thinges themselues , to witt the arguments & proofes there laid forth & prosecuted , there were so many cleere , substantiall & weighty , as the reader will confesse there was no tyme lost in those 3. dayes disputation of the Cath party . And so to the examination therof I remitt me .

11. One thing of no small importance there is to be considered in this preface about the nature of disputation ; to witt , that as it is a fit meanes Disputation fitter in some to moue doubts & examine the truth , then to resolue the same . to styrre vp mans vnderstandinge to attend the truth , by layinge forth the difficultyes on both sides ; so is yt not alwayes sufficient to resolue his iudgement , for that yt moueth more doubts then he can aunswere or dissolue . And this happeneth not only in vnlearned people , which by no meanes can descerne which party hath the better , when both parts are learned & alleage arguments for themselues , in matters aboue their capacity , but euen the most learned also , yf they haue no other meanes of resolution then arguing to and fro by disputation , are brought many-times to be more doubtfull therby then before , & this euen in matters both naturall and morall of this life . The reason wherof is , that mans vnderstandinge being limited , and the light of knowledge imparted vnto him from God , being but a little particle or sparkle of his infinite diuine knowledge : yt cometh to passe , that the more this sparkle is exercised , & inkendled in searching out Gods works and secrets in this life , the more yt seeth her owne weaknes , and beginneth to doubt more , & to be more ambiguous in herselfe , whether that which shee apprehendeth be truly apprehended or no , or whether by further search shee shall not find it otherwise , and see herselfe deceaued in this apprehension , as she hath found in many other apprehensions that went before , when she had lesse knowledge .

12. And vpon this ground no doubt came those philosophers , called the Academicks , to found their sect & profession , that they would belceue or affirme nothing , but dispute of all things to and fro without assent . And heere hence came also the sayinge of that other philosopher : Hoc Unum scio , me nihil scire . I know only this , that I know nothinge . And S. Austen himselfe before his conuersion , being yet a Manichee , & wearyed out with this search by way of arguments to and fro , which should be the true Religion ( for this was one of their principall grounds , as himselfe testified , to beleeue nothinge , but that which was euident by reason ) fell at length to forsake the Manichees , & to ioyne himselfe to the Academiks : but after long search finding no certainty also therin , and hearing their sect Aug. l. de moribus Ecclesiae contra Manicheos . euery day impugned by S. Ambrose Bishopp of Millayne ( where then Augustine remayned ) he returned in the end by the motion of almightie God , to consider what more grounds the Catholike Religion had , to stay a mans iudgement Aug. confess . lib. 5. cap. 13. & lib. 6. c. 1. 2. 11. or conscience , then the vncertainty of disputations , and findinge the same , resolued himselfe to renounce all sects and to be a Catholike , as in his owne confessions at large he declareth .

13. By this then we do see , that albeit disputation rightly vsed , be a good meanes to discouer truth by mouinge doubts to and fro , yet is yt not alwayes sufficient to resolue and quiett a mans iudgement , euen in naturall thinges : and yf not in these , how much lesse in supernaturall and diuine , wherin humaine disputation hath farre lesse force ? For that humaine sciences , deducinge their disputation from principles that are euidently knowne vnto vs by light of nature , may farre better resolue a man by force of those disputations , and enforce What force disputation hath in resoluing matters of faith . him to yeld his assent , then in matters of diuinity , where the first grounds and principles , are not knowne to vs by light of nature , as in humaine sciences , but are receaued only by light of faith , & reueyled from God : wherfore these disputations may serue to examine and discusse matters , for stirring vp our vnderstanding , but the resolution & determination , must come from a more certaine meanes which is infallible , and this we see practised in the very first controuersy , that euer was handled in the priuitiue Church , as is recorded by S. Luke in the Acts of the Apostles , where the question being , whether Christians conuerted of gentills , should be bound to the obseruation of the mosayicall law or no ? there was ( saith the text ) first magna conquisitio , Act. 15. a great search or disputation about The manner of proceeding vnder the Apostles . the matter ; and then secondly the Apostles declared their sentences in order ; and finally the determination was in all their names , representing the whole Church , visum est spiritui sancto & nobis , yt seemed good to the holy-ghost and vs , and so was the matter determined , and the like forme hath byn obserued euer since that tyme in the Cath. Church , determining all controuersies that haue fallen out , to wit , that first there should be great search & discussion of the matter , by lawfull and free disputation , to which end the most learned men of all nations are sent commonly to generall Councells , to performe this point . And secondly all arguments on both sides being heard & examined , the Bishops present do giue their voices , and accordinge to the greater part , with concourse & generall approbation of the generall head , do they determine visum est spiritui sancto & nobis . So as heere disputation serueth not to determine but to examine .