CHRISTIAN reader , when I had perused this sermon made by M. Downame , in defence of the honorable function of Bbs , as he saith , & sawe that it tended directly to prove , that the Caling of our L. Bbs. ( as they now exercise it in the Church of England ) is not onely lawfull & good ; but also to be holden , jure diuino ; not as an humane ordinance , their ancient & wonted tenure , but by devine right , as the verie & ymediate ordinance of Christ : I deemed it as needfull to be answered , as any book our Opposites have at any time sett forth . For how ever M. D. affirmeth the doctrine therein conteined , to be not onely true , but a profitable & necessarie truth , and that in the judgment of all men , which are not partiall & full of preiudice : it is evident , that it is a doctrine vtterlie false , verie hurtfull & obnoxius , necessarie in deed , to be confuted , at no hand to be beleeued : doctrine , repugnant to the truth , the word of the truth , scripture of truth , contrarie to the judgment and practyce , of the prime Churches next after Christ & his Apostles ; & of all reformed Churches , since the restablishinge of the gospell by the worthyes in these later (a) (a) Wickliff , Husse , Luther , Zuinglius , &c. times : Against the doctrine of our ymediate forefathers , ( some of whom were worthy Martyrs , ) (b) (b) Latimer , Cramner &c who in their submission to K. H. the 8. at the abolishing of the Popes authoritie out of England , acknowledge with subscription , (c) (c) See the whole story in the acts & monuments & in the book called the Bbs. kook , that the disparitie of Ministers and Lordly premacie of Bbs , was but a politik device of the Fathers , not any ordinance of Christ Iesus : & Reformat legum Ecclesiasticarum , tit. de divi nis officijs . ca. 10. 11. and that the government of the Churche by the Minister and certeine Seniours or Eldes in everie parishe , was the ancient discipline : a doctrine , I saie , cleane contrary to the professed judgment of all our worthy writers , (d) (d) Whitakers , Fulk , &c. who in their answeres to the papists , that plead for their hierarchie , with the same reasons that M. D. doth for his , doe determine , that the government our Bbs. exercise ouer other Ministers , is iure humano , by the positiue lawe of man onely : the which , if M. D. saith true , is false : and soe the Papists are lefte vnanswered : yea a doctrine contrariant to the lawes of our land , (e) (e) S Edw. Cooke de jure Regis ecclesiastico . fol. 8. which make it one parte of the Kinges jurisdiction , to graunt to our Bbs. that ecclesiasticall power they now exercise ouer us : & also to tak it from them at his pleasure : the which his Highnes taketh to himself , & giueth to all Kinges , where he professeth , (f) (f) in his premonition before one of his last bookes . that God hath lefte it to the libertie , & freewill of princes , to alter the Church-gouerment at their pleasure . Lastly , it is a doctrine contrarying , the doctrine of the Church of England , professed even by the Bbs. themselues (g) (g) Bb , Iewell in his Apolog. defence . Arch. Bb. whitegifte ag: : M. Cart. till of late daies : when as men wearie to holde any longer in Capite & of the Kinge : they began to change their tenure into soccage , and desyred to be free even from Knights service . The newnes and strangnes of which doctrine notwithstandinge , ( to use the words of Socrates (h) (h) Plato in Apolog. Socratis . against his accusers ) M. D. hath told his tale soe handsomely , & carried the matter so smothely , likely & confidently ; that every word he speaketh , hath an appearance & promis of truth , though in truth , he hath scarce uttered one word of truth . By reason whereof , I sawe much hurt was lik to come to the Church of God . The papists would be much advantaged , seing that Antichristian doctrine ( even after the renewing and revivinge of their ceremonies amongst us ) soe freely preached and published , tending to the upholding of their hyerarchie , from the Pope to the Apparitor , aswell as ours : his reasons being in deed the verie same with theirs , as in the answere to them , it shall appeare . Others would be much scandalized ; those that were in love with their owne ease , would easily crouch downe lik Isachars Asse , and seeing that reste is good , would readily & without examination , imbrace his doctrine soe pleasing to the fleshe : as for others , it would remoras obijcere ardentioribus , cast blocks in their waie whose hearts were upright with God , and ran well , & soe mak themst and at the gaze like the Corpses of Asael & Amasa : or retardare zelum , make them slack their pace : at leste sanctorum spiritus in quietare disquiet the mindes of al the saincts , to see a sermon of that consequence , preached and published , by a man of that nam & note in the Church . These things considered , my hearts desyre and praier to God was , that he would raise up some man , like Moses to stand in the gapp , & by some short & sound answere , to make up the breach he had made , and waytinge for the performance of it , the newes was : that work was vndertaken and in hand ; but answere , and presse , & printer , and concealer of the author , were taken and imprissonned , as dealers against the state . Thus was my soule caste downe within me , to see a truth , soe profitable & necessarie a truth suppressed . I thought with my self , but shall the cause lie there ? hath no man that courage for the truth , as to sett upon that worke a freshe ? I sawe by experience , that nothing but bands & afflictions abode , him especially , who after this forewarninge should tak up the gant lett M. D. had throwne downe : but knowing of none that was resolued of it : I cast my counts and summed up my reckonings , & found that my life was not deare to me in this case : & nothing dismaied , I sett downe my rest , not to be bound onely , but to die also for the name of the Lord , & the giving testimoney to this parte of the word of his grace . With this resolution I sett upon this answere , & through the blessing of God ( who will mainteine his owne cause against all opposition of man whatsoeuer ) have here brought it to thy viewe : in much weaknes & with many wants I confesse : ( my self being the leaste able of thousands in this land to manage this busynes ) yet with evidence sufficient , to make it manifest , I doubt not , that M. D. doctrine in this sermon is nothing lesse , then true , profitable & necessarie , as he affirmeth . That his praeface is full of witty caluminations to make our cause odious , & our selues hatefull to the wourld : & that ( notwithstandinge his great boastinge ) his sermon hath in it no one sound syllable of argument to prove his cause & disprove ours . I have made no large discourses to teach over a newe the discipline of Christ : besides that it belongeth not to me to doe it at this tyme , professing to answere so farre onely as he opposeth : it hath bin already layd downe sufficiently & at large with proofes pregnant and demonstratiue those fewe of them which M. D. in his sermon indeavoureth to infringe , I have defended & upheild in this answere onely , except that sometimes I giue him and the reader to witt , & as it were a taste , what might further be sayd therein . According to his desyre & my abintie I have distinctly applyed my answeres to his arguments in order . Weigh them both well , good reader , compare the one with the other , beleve nether , further then evidence trulie produced , leadeth the : euery such Pythagoras as would be beleved upon his owne word without authoritie & good reason , was longe since condemned (i) (i) Ierom epist. 152. famae nemo credit nisiinconsideratus , quia sapiens non credit incerto , (k) (k) Tertull in Apolog . c. 7. he is not wise but inconsiderate that beleeveth flying and vncerteine speaches , look well therefore to thy evidence , before thou giue thy verdict . Yf thou fyndest no sufficiency in his reasons to inforce thee to acknowledg his doctrine for true , justly think with thy self , it is not else where to be had , all men know him to be a scholler ; he professeth he hath read the cheef treatisses on bothsydes , thou hast here the pith & substance of all that all of them can saie for themselues and against us . The Lord open our eyes to see his truth & sanctifye our hearts vnto the love of it . And the same God , the Lord himself of peace , graunt us his peace , alwaise , by all meanes . To him be praise for ever Amen .

But in this sentence of his , I charge him with slauder on the one syd , & suspect him of vntruth on the other . He maketh M. Calvin the author of the discipline , ( as Saravia , Bb. Bilson , D. Kinge & others have done before him ) how slandereth he the cause of God , soe making it the divice of man ? that Calvin should devise it & thrust it upon the Church for Gods ordinance ; what a notorious evil chargeth he vpon that man , whom he would seeme to reverence ? Oh that M. D. him self were not guiltie of that sin in this sermon teaching the gouernment by our L. Bbs. to be Gods ordinance , which is in deed of mans devysinge . M. Calvin was soe farr from being the devyser of the discipline we stand for , that he was not so much as the first preacher and publisher of it , no not in these later ages . Wicliff , Hus , Luther , Zuinglius , & others before him , brought the same to light , though not soe clearely and fully in all the partes thereof , as shall in the answere appeare . That he suspended his judgment for a long time , maie justly be suspected of vntruth . They that have knowne him in times past , ( from the time of his entrance into the Ministry till he became Doctor especially ) conceyved otherwise of him , then of one that suspended his judgment in his cause ; and that not without cause , if his writings and note bookes were seene , & he would but tell us , whether he never supplicated to any for the furtherane therof . But be it true that he did as he saith , maie we not justlie charge upon him the neglect of his dutie ; in that he entred into the Ministerie , and took one lyving after another and that with subscription ( for ought is knowne to the contrarie ) and yet held the matter in suspence a longe tyme , & resolued not to be ( as he afrerward saith ) a meddler on either syd ? But to proced ; he giueth us two reasons ( such as they be ) for his excuse ; The first is , he rightly supposed ( as he saith ) his paines might be better bestowed in other parts of divinitie . And why soe ? doth he not affirm this parte to be a profitable and necessarie truth ? And hath not God commanded to his Ministers especially the studie , as of everie parte of his will : soe of this soe profitable & necessarie a truth , as concerneth the government of his Church , the Ministers and Officers therof ? Yea can the Ministers more profitably bestowe their paines & studie , then in these pointes of divinitie , that are moste doubted of , & controverted in the Church , wherof they are members ? Yea , are they not bound to it , when the cause soe standeth that they must subscribe to the one , and that the moste suspected side , even such as the moste and beste learned in the world approve not ? Whether this supposition of his be right ( as he saith ) or no , lett the world judge . But to give it the more credit , he telleth us , how he heard M. Greenham a zealous Preacher reprove yonge divines in a sermon at Cambridge &c , for setting up the roofe , before they had layd the foundation . Al as poore man , what succour is there under this mans shadow ? Yf M. Greenham soe censured all yonge divines for studying the Discipline , whereto can it be imputed , but to some distempered passion , or zeale without judgment in him ? not to anie sound reason surely , yf we consider the matter well . Was there not greater reason for him , to reprove the Prelates , for urginge yonge divines to subscribe , to the Discipline in controversy , and seeking resolution in it ? Have not yonge divines juste cause to studie it , when seing it controverted amongst manie & great divines old and newe , they must notwithstanding beforced to subscribe , and thereby to approve that parte , which they know to be contrarie to the judgment of the greatest lights , that these later ages have affoarded the Churches of God ? Is it not strange , they can be contented men should , ( naie will they not condemne them if they doe not ) subscribe to that as true ; and yet blame them , yf they studie the same and examin whether it be true or no ? what is it else , but with the blinde Papists , to make ignorance the Mother of Devotion , even to beleeve as the Church beleeveth , and good enough ? yea what else is it , but to controule the courses of our owne , and all vniuersities in the world , who require of yonge divines , the publique defence of controversies of religion , in open schooles , & assemblies of learned men , and yet denie them the studie , of these controversies that trouble our owne Church , though they be deemed not to befoe deep and profound , as other controuersies are ; but such as easynes it self ( if we maie beleeve M. Hooker ) hath onely made harde ? But the truth is , that yonge divines indure no such censure , in case they so studie these matters of discipline , that they can learne to preach and dispute and raile against them in pulpitts and schooles : naie , they are the onely men , that are judged to laie the best foundation , & pave the readiest waie for their owne preferment . They onely which soe studie the same , that they cannot but like and approue the truth of them ; they , they , I saie , are the vuhappie men , that are ouerbusye in matters of discipline , & sett up the roofe before they have layd the foundation . In his second reason he telleth us , he could not see what good would come either to himself or to the Church of God , by his paines taken in that controuersy , For he conceyved the issue of his studie would be , either the disgrace of his Ministerie amonge the forwarder sort , if he resolued as no whe hath done : or the ouerthrowe of his Ministerie , if he should stand for that discipline . Wherein , besides his vncharitablenes renued , mark how he discouereth one shame whilest he assaieth to cover another . What else can it argue , but that he walked not in the execution of his function with soe right a foote and syncere affection as he ought to have done ; had he made streight stepps to his pathes , he would have respected , not so much the grace of men , how holie and forward in shew soeuer ; as the discharge of that office , which God imposed on him , & is to be parformed without respect of parsons . And is it any other but a vaine and ambitious minde , soe to feare the displeasing of some , and the disgrace of his Ministry with them , as in that regard , to forbeare of alonge tyme , the searching out of that divine truth , which himself affirmeth to be both profitable & necessarie ? Of as ill note is it , that he refused soe to doe , for seare leste in seing the truth & professing it , it would be the ouerthrowe of his Ministert : can this be any better then Symonie and intrusion ? had not G. D. subscribed this sentence , I could not have thought he had looked soe farre a squinte , & sought himself so much . But obserue we further , how he wrongeth those whom he calleth in a kind of disdeine , the forwarder sort as though the Ministerie of those onely that dislik the present government , were in grace with them : & the ministerie of all others were contemned & dispised of them ; soe his words importe , though vncharitablie . For however , the forwarder sort , ( that is , such as goe before others in welldoing ) would lik the better of those Ministers that approue of the present gouerment , yf they were of judgment for the discipline of Christ : yet so longe as they shewe themselves faithfull & painefull in all other duties of their Ministerie , and doe not sin of mallice in rayling against it ; all the world seeth , how they yeild due reverence vnto them , & their Ministerie . M. D. having thus layd downe the causes of his suspence , sheweth us the grounde of his resolution to studie it , where he saith , that when of late yeares the cause was soe altered with the time , that a necessitie was imposed on him to resolue & professe on the one parte : he entred on the studie therof parhaps with another mind then some others did , & therefore with other successe . Wherof I can make no other construction but this , an I leave his conscience to be examined by the searcher of hearts , whether it be not the meaninge of these cloudy speaches , that when of late his conceited desyres & other hopes of reformation in the begininge of his Magisties reigne did fayle him , & that he parceyved the case to be so altered , that except men would approue the gouerment established , & the Corruptions theirin , by subscribing & conforming to them ; they must be turned out of their livings : he then began to think himself of the beste & clenliest waie to tak his leave of that cause , and to be enterteined of the contrarie . What that other minde should be , which brought other successe , I know not . Yf he meaneth that discontented needynes sett him a work , and plunged him with a desyre of yelding , no merveil though God answered him after the immagination of his heart , and gaue him leave to goe , that would needs be gone : but lett that other mind be farre from us to studie with . Yf he meaneth , that single and sincere affection which setting a parte all wourldlie respects , vnfeynedly desyreth to be informed in the truth ; see we not how vncharitablie he chargeth all his brethren that have in their studies resolued against the hierarchie , that they studied not the cause , with that single and syncere heart that he did ? But lett us heare him speak againe , and tell us what mind it was ; to witt , that he considered with himself , first that it was schismaticall and damnable presumption to make separation from our Church which holdeth and professeth all substanciall pointes of divinitie as foundly as any Church in the world , the primitiue Churches not excepted &c. and wherein the meanes of salvation are ordinarily and plentifully to be had . Secondly , that he being in the Ministerie , necessitie was laid upon him , and woe vnto him if preached not the gospell . And therefore studied these controversies , as one who ment if he were not convicted with evidence of truth to be respondent or defendant , resolving not to leave his place , vnlesse by force of argument he were remoued wheras others being out of loue with our Church discipline , & in affection wholly alienated from our Church-gouerners , studied these things as opponents and plaintiffs . Wherein first , he speaketh ydlely , seing it is not materiall touching the truth , whether he cam as a respondent or opponent to the studie of these controversies . Everie respondent doth not defend the truth , nether doth euery opponent oppugne it : some that defend , daube with vntempered morter , plead for Baal , and buyld up Babel . others that oppone , doe worthily in castinge downe by the word of God , their walles and Castles . Secondly , seing that other minde where with he studied , was not to leave his standing &c. What do the he againe , but charge others to be such fooles and sottes , as to forsake their standings , though by force of argument they be not convinced ; But what standing doth he meane ? was it the pastorall charge of that flock , that now dependeth on him ? it seemeth no ; for he that lefte Lotheburie for it ; and would have lefte it for Wiggen , in all likelihood will leave it for greater preferment . What then , is it the office of the Ministrie ? verely whatsoever he saith concerninge his purpose , this his sermon sheweth , he studied these controuersies as one , who neuer mente to loose his standing for the truth of the discipline , soe longe as by any colour , he could elude the arguments brought for it . As for his first reason , that he held it schismaticall and damnable presumption to separate from our Church &c. Not to insist upon his high & peremptorie comparison , which will hardlie be made good by him , yf we consider who they are that arrogate the title of the Church of England ; the vncerteinty of the doctrine they holde , altering and varyinge as it is expound dand interpreted at their pleasure , especicially that sitt in the sea of Canterburie , and the impugninge of diuerse parts of the truth by preaching and printinge , the cheefe prelates winckinge , yf not approving , and in a sorte provyding it maie be done impune . Nor yet to stand upon it , that however in manie places , the word is soundly and plentifully preached ; yet partly through the greate ecclipse lately made , by the silencing of soe many preachers , and putting out soe worthy lightes , which lieth heavy upon many a soul ; & partly through the dailie letting and holding in , of many dombe idols and blinde guides , togither with the pride , ambition , covetousnes , & voluptuousnes of others ; yf M. D. look about the feilds well , he shall find the harvest great and the labourers few , no springes of living water in manie places to refresh thirstie soules : many little ones asking bread , but have no Fathers to giue it them ; others in stead their of , giving stones , serpent , scorpions to eate of , & stinking puddles to drinke on : in which respects there cannot but be great cause of sorrow & grife to a godly heart ; Not to stand upon these things I saie , but granting it , to be even as he would have it ( the times of the primitiue Church excepted ) what will follow thereon , either for his owne defence or our hurt ? nothing I trow : vnlesse he be of mind & can mainteine it , that it is schismaticall & damnable presumption for a minister , in his judgment to differ from those Churches whereof he is a member , in any point : or that to refuse subscription & conformitie to them in everie thinge , ( provided they holde & professe all substanciall pointes of divinitie ) be , to make separation from it . M. D. I doubt not , is parswaded the Churches of Scotland , France and the lowe cuntries holde and professe all substanciall pointes of religion : & that in them the meanes of salvation is ordinarily & plentifully to be had ; what if he were a member of any one of those Churches , & required by them to subscribe for truth , that the gouerment of the Church , communi praesbyterorum consilio , by the presbyterie is jure divino : & the gouerment by our L. Bbs. is not divine , but humane & iure positiuo , maie it be thought , he would count it schismaticall & damnable presumption , to be of another minde ? And if for refusing to subscribe in that manner , ( which if his sermon be true were a greate fault ) he should be putt from his Ministerie , & out of the Church : might it be sayd , he made separation from it ? verely , yf a man must goe against his owne judgment & mind therein ; because the Church wherof he is a member , professeth all the substanciall pointes of divinitie ; & having in it the meanes of salvation , holdeth soe ; what doe we else , but make , the Church , or rather the gouernors thereof , Popes & Gods , yea lifte them up aboue all that is called God ? But further , yf it be schismaticall & damnable presumption , to suffer our selves to be cutt of from the execution of our Ministerie , in the Church wherof we are members , rather then against Consience to yeld to euery thinge it requireth of us ; what is it in our Prelates , by suspencion , deprivation & degradation to cutt of from the Ministerie , such as hold & professe all the substanciall pointes of divinitie as soundly , & practyce them as carefully , as the beste of them all ( none dispraised ) because they cannot , nor will not force their consciences , to yeild to some other smaller matters as themselues count them ? yea by excomunication , proceeding against them as heathens & publicanes , to cutt them of from the Church ? is this no presumption in them ? well , whether they or we be guilty of schisme lett Councels & Fathers judge . Schismaticus est , qui a comunione seipsum suspendit &c. he is a schismatik , saith the councell of Calcedon (c) (c) decret. pr. 2 Caus. 23. q. 5. cap. 42. which separateth himself from the comunion &c. Schisma ab ecclesia separat , schisme separateth from the Church , saith Ierom. Schismatici sunt ijsdem vtentes sacramentis , at dissentientes opinionibus seorsum celebrant conventus . They are schismatikes , saith Austin , (e) (e) de ve ra religs oneca . 5. who though they use the same sacramentes still that the Church doth : yet varying in opinions , doeseparate from it , & holde meetings a parte by themselues : the which I hope M. D. will not charge upon us : It were well . he could cleare our opposites aswell as we can our selues of this crime , they are the men , if we maie beleeve Austin , that run within that censure . Quicunque invident bonis ve querant occasiones excludendieos , aut degradandi , vel crimina sua sic defendere parati sunt , si abiecta velprodita fuerunt , ut etiam conventiculorum segregationes vel ecclesiae perturbationes cogitant excitare , iam schismatici sunt &c. Whosoeuer ( saith he ) (f) (f) Hipe rius de sacr: stud : non descrend . p. 76. envye those that are good , & seek occasions to exclud & degrad them , & are soe ready to defend their faultes , that rather then they will leave than , they will devyse how to raise up troubles in the Church , & dryve men from it into cunventicles and corners , they are the schismatikes , though they be not divided from the Church &c.

In his second reason he telleth us , how he considered that being in the ministerie , necessitie was laid upon him , and a woe if he preached not the gospell . Which consideration I wishe more familiar to him , & others that seeme litle to regard it : but doth he think it proper to him ? know he , that others who have laboured in the ministerie as faithfully & painfully as he ; & have that testimony of loving & lyving with their flocks depending upon them ( though now deprived (d) (d) Ad Titum Ca. 3. of them ) which he hath not ; have seriously considered the necessity layd upon them , and notwithstanding that woe , know no such necessity as to redeeme the libertie of preaching with the bondage of conscience , and the doing of those things which God forbiddeth . But how can that necessity he upon us ? Doth not the Apostle there speake , of them onely to whom the dispensation is committed , but doe it not at all , or not willinglie through their sloth and negligence ? We for our parts , desyre nothing more willingly , then to have againe that libertie of preaching which once we had , wherein we shewed not our selves soe unwillinge and negligent as manie of our opposites doe ; and from which , because some of us will not be bound , we are bounde in prisson , as the Gatehouse at this daie can testifie . And ( to ask M. D. a question ) yf he were injoyned ( to speak nothing of subscription which will never be justifyed whilest the world standeth ) to weare , with his surplice and doctorall robes , habit , hood , tippet , preists gowne and cloak , the graie Amice , & the rest of the induments & ornaments of the popish preisthood , to tak upon him a shaven crowne that honorable mark of preisthood , ( which his good L. to whom he dedicateth his sermon , as it is sayd , would not refuse ( to crosse often , to duck &c. in the administration of the supper , to kisse the pax , to giue holy bread and sprinckle with holy water , and to swallow manie such gnattes , all which are no worse then the thinges required of us ( as we are ready to mainteine , yf we maie have such an indifferent tryall as the modest offer mencioneth ) yf these things I saie , were injoyned him , would he think that such a necessitie is layd upon him to preach , that he must yeld to the doing of them , rather then suffer himself to be putt from his standinge ? Many in deed doe ingenuously confesse , that in such a cause they would swallow many such guatts ; yea admitt and devoure all popish rites and ceremonies how filthy & abhominable soever ) being washed with english water , such a woe heth upon them if they preach not the gospell , though in deed they preach verie seldome . Is M. D. of theire mind too ? we for our paries have not so learned Christ , but think rather , that a necessitie is laid upon all men in such cases not to preach ; & a woe not farr from them that will preach with such conditions , and admitt none therevnto but with such provisoes , especially when such a necessitie is layd upon us . Is not that man blinde of his right eie , think ye , that can see a woe against them , that suffer ( that which they cannot hinder ) themselues to be deprived of their ministerie , rather then they will yeld to matters vnlawefull : but no woe to them that who depriue us for such matters & forbidd us to preach to the gentiles that they maie be saved ? To proceed , M. D. having shewed with what mind he studied the controuersy , telleth us , in the next words , that others studyed it ( being out of loue with our gouerment and gouernours ) as opponents & plaintiffs , that is , with purpos to oppose , not yeild to the truth , how cleare soeuer it should appeare to them : where was his Christian Charitie , trow we , when he wrote this ? Although we see no great cause in the gouernment by our L. Bbs. why we should be in love with it , considering it is neither the best nor any plante at all of the Lords setting in his vynearde , and therefore in due time to be supplanted by him : And albeit we cannot much abound in harty affection towards the gouernours themselues who , having gotten an inche of his Magistie , doe take an elne , and not onely reigne as Lords ouer their brethren : but against all law depriue , degrade , suspend and excomunicate them , many of whom are not much inferior in many graces to the best of them ; yet have we not bin so farr out of loue with the one , nor our affectione soe farr estranged from the other , as to studie these controuersies with no other mind but to oppose to the truth as M. D. calumniously suggesteth ; however by the study of them , we fynd juste cause to be soe farre out of loue with them both , as not to subscribe to the lawfullnes of the one , or giue allowance to the oppressions of the other . In the next place , M. D. laieth downe the successe that followed upon our so studying of it , as that we have sought knots in rushes streyned at euery gnatt , picked soe manie quarrels against our Church & ministerie , that we have suffred our selues to be depriued , the land to swarme ( even in our owne opinion ) with Papists & Atheists , our owne places to be destitute , or occupied with such as we account vnprofitable Ministers , & all this , rather then we will so much as without preiudice & partiallity read what is truly sayd for the defence of our Church . I hope he hath the grace to blushe at least , when he considereth what he here chargeth upon us . Is it a seeking of knottes in rushes , a streining at gnattes & picking of quarrels with our Church ; to contend for the truth , & labour to purge out the corruptions of the Church ? what shall we saie then to Elias , who indeavoured the clensing of Israel from the alters of Baal ? to the Angel , who troubled the water to cure the sick ? what else doe we but seek to cure the sicknesses & diseases in the Church , yf we trouble it ? doe we pick quarrels who desyre a plaisture for health ? quid agunt qui resultant , what doe they which keep it from the soare ? yf we ; because we would preserue the worship & service of God vndefyled ? what doe they , who will not abide the purging of it from the vncleane things of Antichrist ? Let Cassander an Adiaphorist be Iudge who they be that pick quarrels , he telleth us , (g) (g) G. Cassander Consulta : act. 7. that though the protestants in their Godly zeal did at the first sharplie reproue certeine manifest abuses ; yet the cheefe cause of the Churches distraction at that tyme , ( illis assignan dam esse , qui inani quodam fastu ecclesiasticae potestatis inflati , recte & modeste admonentes , superbe contempserunt & repulerunt ) is to be ascribed to them , who puffed up with that arrogant pride of the ecclesiasticall power , scornfully contemned and despysed those that rightfully and modestlie admonished them . The which , to whom it now apperteineth , who seeth not ? who are they that still crosse us , even so much the more that in all humility , we sue and seek for reformation of things amysse , as if the Taskmasters of Egipt were making Israels burthens , the more heavy , the more they sought for libertie ? vbi spiritus contentionis veraciter pugnat , veritas ipsa indicat , I will accuse none , lett the truth it self shewe , who be they that picke quarrels . But to proced ; Is it our opinion onely that the land swarmeth with Atheists & Papists ? is it not the judgment of all , that have any judgment at all ? hath M. D. the face to deny it ? That manie of our places are supplied by such as are vnprofitable Ministers , men frutefull in nothing but in the vnfrutefull works of darknes , that preach not at all ; or if they doe ; their tongues were better cleave to the roofs of their mouthes ; is too true . And howsoeuer M. D. here to save his head from breaking salveth the matter , by saying such as we account vnprofitable , as if it were not soe in deed ; Yet Gods people see and feele the contrarie , and M. D. himself also hath published it to all the world in his sermon of the dignitie and duties of the Ministers . But where and in whom is the fault ? that is the question in deed : M. D. casteth it up on us , for we must beare the blame for all : but lett the matter be carefully inquired into , and the lott caste , that the transgressor maie be found out ; I dout not , but we shall passe by , and some others be taken . Who are they that dominere at their pleasure , that scourge their brethren ( even faithfull & painefull preachets ) with scorpions , but have not , or at lest use not so much as the lesse rodd against Atheists & Papists ignorant asses , doumb Ministers , abominable nonresidents , scandalous & profane lyvers ? nay , are there not more such yearely made in Ember weeks , as if the bottomeless pitt were opened to send forth Locustes ? what rodd I saie doe our Bbs. beare them with ? naie doe they not , make & ordeine them , admitt & receyve them , continue & countenance them , yea succour & defend then ? While contrary to law & conscience , we are thrust out of our places , in which we laboured faithfully & painfully for many yeares ? deprived of our freeholds , denyed the benefitt of law , the comon right of all subjects , shutt out from the comon refuge & sanctuarie of the oppressed , denyed the prosecution of our appeales , & offring to pursue them , & to preach for the hindring of the increase of those vermin he speak of ? are we not clapt up in prisson , & there kept without bayl or maineprize , till we take an oath , or giue sufficient caucion , to meddle no more in any ministeriall action , no nor so much as to teach or catechize our own families , any other parson occasion being present ? this is our verie cause , & this doe the prissons wittnes at this daie : how then doth M. D. laie all the blame upon us , as the heathen were wont to doe vpon the Christians ? and how doth the D. plaie the sophister , in setting downe a false cause for a true , & making us the cause why Atheists , and Papists increase ? might he not aswell charge us with suffering the powder plott and ditchers ? But it passeth aboue all , that he chargeth us to doe all this , rather then we will soe much as read without preiudice & partiallity , what is trulie sayd for defence of our Church ; then which , what can be spoken more vncharitably and vainely ; as if all that imbrace not conformitie , reade allwaise with partiallity and prejudice ; & as if whatsoever is written by our opposites , were sufficient to satisfy everie one , that is not forestalled with prejudice , & none had layd it by when he read , but M. D. himself . But whether that which he or others have sayd , be truly sayd for the defence of the Church , or rather of the corruptions in our Church , & how we have read the same , doth in parte appeare by that we have already written , and would doe , yf fredome were permitted to the presse , & we might without perill and extreme charge publish our answers , as others vente & broach their oppositions ; they maie speak & write what please them , & call for our answeres ; but we must keep silence or kisse the prissons & abid the censures , while they tryumph & saie we reade with prejudice . Well lett us now goe on with him , having dealt thus Christianly with others he returneth to his tale againe concerninge himself , & telleth us what he found when he had studied som the cheef treatisses on both sydes , to witt , on the one syde , certeine places of scripture , drawne as it were by the neck to that syde , a fewe straggling sentences quoted out of the Fathers , & as it were with oares wherried by these men ( looking as one would think the other waie ) against the full straeme of antiquities , some prettie speaches & wittie proofes , which yet were but meere colours rather then sound arguments ; On the other syd , full & plentifull proofes , especially in the treatisse of the perpetuall gouerment , from which he receyved good satisfaction , and as he after saith , would satisfy others also , yf they would sett preiudice asyd , what a floorish is here ? as if Dioscorus were aliue againe , lifting up his voice in the Calcedon Councell . Ego defendo dogmatasanctorum patrum , ego illorum habeo testimonia , nec obiter in transcursu , sed in ipsorum libris posita : ego cum patribus eijcior &c. That which I mainteine is the doctrine of the holy Fathers , I have there wittnesses at larg , not stragling here & their & gathred up by chance , but taken out of their owne bookes , I am cast out with the Fathers &c. A florish in deed ; as if all learning sound & honest dealing had bin in himself & non in the Councell ; when in truth he had nether truth nor antiquity on his syde , no more then there is in these vaine glorious speaches of M. D. The answere following shall make it manifest , that he himself & the men that gaue him so good satisfaction , ( with the reste of their syd ) are they who wrest scriptures even worse then papists , alleadg Counterfeits in stead of Fathers , wherrie in others as it were with oares , against the full streame of their owne meanings , and that there best & soundest grounds , are carnall policies , fleshly perswasions , bitter reproches , sharp censures , suspencions , excommunications , deprivations & imprisonments , by all which they dispute & conclude , almost all their matters . The scriptures & Fathers we alleadge , are rightly vnderstood , accordinge to the Circumstances of the places themselues , & the judgement of the best & moste learned writers in the wourld . For the evincing whereof , our opposites are driven to such shifts as is strange to see , even to devyse diuerse strange sense of one and the same place , some extending , some restreyninge , euery one dryving to a diuerse sense , either manifestly absurd , or soe obscure , as if the true meaninge could not be atteyned to . One instance wher of , to passe by the rest , lett the Reader veiwe well , in their handling of 1 tim. 5.17 . & Ambrose upon 1 tim. 5.1 . But to goe on ; the cheefbook from which M. D. receyved good satisfaction , was as he saith , the learned treatisse &c. to witt Bb. Bil sons : we will beleeve him , for he hath little or nothing in all hisermon which is not in that treatise ; but seing he that will parte with his frend , as the wyseman saith , will fynd an occasion to doe it , & when good causes want . pretences shall serue the turne ; I wish him to look to it , that other inducements best knowne to himself , were not more perswasyve and forcible with him , then these he here sett downe . And where he presumeth soe farre upon other mens judgments & affections , that they must needs turne round by the same swaie or poyze , & stande & fall as it were by the same staffe with him , if they sett prejudice asyd ; ( for he saith , he knoweth nothing to the contrary but the same arguments that perswaded him , will preveile with others ) what doth he else but followe the presumption of error , whose propertie is , as Austin saith , (h) (h) de gene: cout : Mauich : ut quod cuique displicet id alijsquoque oportere existimet disi licere , to think that that which pleaseth or displeaseth it self , must needsplease or displease others also : but as Tertullian to the Valentinians , soe maie I saie to M. D. artificium habent quo prius persuadent , quam doceant , veritas autem docendo suadet , non suadendo docet , M. D. hath great skill to perswad before he teach , but the truth perswadeth by teaching , teacheth not by perswadinge , the judicious reader I doubt not will hearken to his reasons , & lett goe such perswasions . Thus much for his first head , lett us now enter upon his second wherein he sheweth us what exceding good he hopeth to see & that quickly , in case men would be perswaded with him : namely an ende of this pernitious division against us ; & why soe ? because , though some other particulars be controuerted , yet this of the Church-gouerment is the chiefe , & the rest , as he hath sometimes thought , are but controuersies in pretence , to avoyde the envy of this . For he doubteth not , but if men syncerely affected were right ly perswaded of the gouerment , either they would not so stand upon matters of ceremonie & such like of small importance &c. or if any out of tendernes of conscience should make scruple , that they would favourably be respected . Here first I charge upon him the wronging , & that verie vnchristianly , of manie godly Ministers in thus judging of them : can it enter into a Christian heart so to think , that they have opposed to the ceremonies , yea & suffred for them , not in synceritie as being perswaded of their vnlawefullnes , according to their profession , but onely in pretence & hypocrisy , & to avoyd the envy of this of the hierarchy ? what is this else but to calumniate ? can he be ignorant , that as the ceremonies have bin oppugned by the Godly before now , in our neighbour Churches , who could not make this controversy their pretence : soe there be diverse amonge our selues , of judgment for the lawfullnes of the hierarchy jure positiuo , who yet suffer & are ready to suffer more then hath yet bin inflicted on them , rather then they will conforme to the allowance or practyce of the ceremonies ? no , no , it cannot be hidd from him , that diverse of the Ministers , at the time of their depriuation , were of this judgment , what ever they now are or will be herafter , when they further consider the matter . Secondly , lett it be observed , how he counteth all mattersnow in question for which so manie Ministers have suffered , but tristes & ( this of the Church gouerment onely excepted ) matters of small importance , and as he sayd before , even knotts in rushes and seely gnatts : as light accounet doe all the rest of that syd make of them , & even so did Harding tell Iuell , the things were small , where with he charged their Church . Wherefore their plea being the same , with his : well maie that worthy ruells answere to Harding then , serue M. D. turne nowe . How great or small these matters are , saith he , (i) (i) desence of artic ag: : Hardings preface . it forceth not . In deed they are avouched with verie small proofes : as small as you would have them , it appeareth you keep no small seriue about them : nothing ought to be counted small , where with soe manie of Gods people are deceived and scandatized &c. Robberie is no lesse in a small matter then in a great , saith Plato . A little leaven so wreth the whole lumpe , saith the Apostle . Alia sunt frivola & innoxia , alia frivola & noxia saith Gregorie ; though these matters be small , yet the evills that rise of them , are not small ; yf they be small , there is the lesse hurt in leaving them , & the more wilfullnes in defending them . Christ saith , qui in modico iniquus , & in maiori iniquus , he that is vnfaithfull in a little , will be vnfaithfull in much verely the greatest parte of the land is wearie of them . Thus farre that blessed Iuell ; yf M. D. will not heare him , lett him giue eare to Austin , (k) (k) Tom 10. Hom 42. de minutis guttis flumina implentur , per augustasrivulas in sidat aqua , impletursentina , mergitur navis , small dropps make great fludes , through small riftes the water soaketh in , filleth the deck & drownes the shipp . Could Hamans money recompence the Kings losse of the Iewes ? no more can these their ceremonies of small importance for which our Bbs. stand so stifflie , euer recompen ce the Churches losse of so manie worthy preachers as are deprived for them : had it not bin more wisdome in our reuerend Fathers , to have forborne their brethren in those things , themselues count trifles ? yea to caste those trifles , ( I will not saye their honours too ) into the sea ? the wise and skilfull Pilote , tempestate urgente , quaedam exenerat , ut caetera salva permaneant , when the tempest inforceth it , emptieth the shipp of some thinges to save the rest , yea though the wares be pretious , he spareth them not : doe our Bbs. well then , to caste out the Pilots of the shipps themselues , & all to save those romishe wares , those base and vile trifles ; (l) (l) Herman . Hamelman de tradit . part 1. l. 4. Col. 377. Itance propter consuetudines ( was it once sayd to Cassander ) audes iubere ut pij viriqui alias syncere docent , eijciantur ? and maie not the same be nowe sayd in english to our Prelates ? Is it even soe , are these matters of small importance , trifeling customes ; how dare you then for them , cast out of the Church , Godly men who otherwise teach well and syncerely ? But to proced , obserue we secondly , how he faileth utterly in the maine drifte and purpos of his sermon , which is , by bringing men to the imbraceing of his doctrine concerninge the hierarchie , to compound all other the controuersies amongst us , soe his words shewe & both his reasons , that either the sincerely affected would not stand upon them , or if they did , they should be respected : doth he not utterly mistake the matter ? seeth he not the cleane contrarie before his eies ? how manic doe approue of the Bbs. calings & yet oppose to the ceremonies ? vnlesse therefore he will againe charge them not to be syncerely affected ; that first reason of his , is without reason . How longe will M. D. giue us cause to suspecte he writeth not as he thinketh ? we cannot imagin him to be ignorant , how in all ages manie profitable Ministers howeuer agreeing in matters concerninge the hierarchy have yet varied about matters of ceremonie : remembreth he not how Austin (m) (m) In his answer ad inquisitiones I an uarij lib. 1. Cap. 2. in his time complaineth , that ( tantae fuerunt certationes in ecclesia , de traditionibus humanis , & rebus indifferentibus , ut secuta sit inde miserabilis vastitas in ecclesia ) there were soe great contentions in the Church about mens traditions and things indifferent , that the Church was almoste layd wast therewith ? hath he forgotten that controuersy about Easter , (n) (n) Eu seb . hist. lib. 5. Cap. 23. when , Neque Anicetus Policarpo persuadere poterat , neo Policarpus Aniceto suasit , the contentions of Anicetus & Policarpe , being as Salomon saith like the barres of a pallace , the one could nor perswad with the other ? nay , to come lower , are the late troubles of our neighbours Churches in Germanie about things indifferent ( soe called ) cleane out of his mind ; & how many ministers suffred them . selues to be depriued of all for them ? yet were there no controuersies about the hierarchy . His first reason then hath nether truth nor likelihood ; no more hath his second , yf the expersence of tymes past & present , can teach us to guesse of the times to come ? manie are deprived & suspended for the ceremonies notwithstanding they have bin of judgment for the hierarchy , that partely out of their owne sense & feeling , & partlie being warned by other mens harmes , they have learned to make it a parte of their Letanie , to be kept from the Bbs. blessing . M. D. we see hath layd a slender foundation whereon to build his successe and great good that would come upon the imbraceing of his doctrine , and yet he reareth up many glorious things thereon , & amplifieth the matter by a nomber of rhetorications from the consequentes of yolding in this point , as compounding of differences , healing of breaches , reuniting of divided mindes , glorifying of God in the edification of his Church , propagation of his gospell , confusion of poperi & atheisme &c. in steed of manie evills growing by opposing in this point , as dishonor of God and his true religion , advantageing poperie and atheism , scandalizing whom we ought to edify , both backwarder and for warder sort . All which , what are they but vaine smoakes easely blowne awaie ; & serue for no other use in deed , but to make his owne waie , to come the more handsomely , to have his full strok at them whom he calleth the forwarder sort . For who knoweth not , that before this vnjuste Claime of the Bbs. & diuision about this point , that there callings are iure diuino : & before the tendring & exacting of conformity & subscription soe contrarie to law : and before this woefull breach made : not by us , but by them that will needs surgere in altum , dommeire and have their forth vijs & modis ; who knoweth not saie , that before this , there was no such care and zeale in the Bbs. ( manie of them especially ) or other their Chapleines for the edification of the Church , propagation of the gospell , confounding of poperie and atheisme ? doth not their carelessnes therein , testify to their faces ? doth not all the wourld see , how seldome the most of them preach , even now that atheism and poperie groweth soe fast through their silencinge of soe manie preachers ? doe they not for all that , count it the least or no parte of their L. function ? doe not their Chancelors , Archdeacons , Deanes , Doctors and Chapleins ( many of them ) heap living upon lyving ? defend they not nonresidencie & other corruptions in the vniuersities ? place they not daily in benefices , idle idols , dumbe dogges that cannot barke ? or else such doggs or Doegs rather , as loue all words that maie doe hurt , ventinge much corrupte popish & atheisticall doctrine , like the doggs in Capitolio , that Tully speaketh of , that barked against true men , instead of theeves ? tollerate they not many in the ministerie , who notwithstandinge their gifts , pull downe more by their scandalous life , then others can buylde up , like the synner Salomon speaketh of , that destroieth much good ? suppresse they not faithfull and painefull preachers ? yea snubb they not & curbe they not ( so much as lieth in them ) euerye one Minister or other , of what guifts , pietie and godlines soever , in case they conforme not to their orders and canons vniuersally ? & in the meane time lett they not Papists and Atheists goe awaie vnpunished ? are not these & manie such like the things that dishonor God & his true religion ? hinder the proceeding of the gospell ? advantage popery & atheisme ; scandalize such as we ought to edifye ? would none of these ihings be done any more , yf the poore deprived Ministers would now subscribe that the caling of our Bb. is jure divino ? would all this good be done , if this one cotroversy were at an ende ? why then doe our Bbs. themselues begin and uphold , yea reinforce the controuersie ? why stand they so much for their honors , as not to content themselues to holde their soveregneties of the Civil Magistrate , as their predecessors before them have done , but must needs enjoye it now by a new found pattent even jure divino ? at least why leave they not this claime , till such great matters be effected ; but presse both it , and their beggerly ceremonies more then the lawes of Christ , and that to the depriving of soe manie worthy preachers , by whose ministery M. D. himself confesseth so much good might be done ? fynaly , why occosion they so manie of all sorts backward and forward , to be scandalized , in seeing how they deale for them selues so zealously ; for Christ soe carelesty ? But lett us follow him to the ende of this race , where he falleth foule upon the forwarder sort : ( as he calleth them ) of whom he maketh two sorts , to witt , all such Christians in generall as indeavour to goe before others in weldoinge , and those that published that book , called the modest offer of disputation &c. upon both whose backes he ploweth and maketh longe furrowes , & leadeth them with heavy imputations . The creimes charged upon the former he comprizeth in 5 heads , some of them having diuerse hornes wherewith he pusheth hard to gore them ; one would thinke , althings considered , he should have inveighed againste the former evills , with their authors and Fautors ; but as if he himself were one of the Doegs before spoken of , he spendeth himself whollie upon the true men and letts the robbers goe . His first charge is , that they despise the solemne worship and service of God , and whatsoever good thinge else is sett forth by authoritie ; A meere calumniation not much differing from Hamans , (o) (o) Hest. 3.6.8 . who thought it too little to laie hands on Mordechaij , and therefore slandered the Iewes , to be a people diverse from others , which kept not the Kings lawes : except that his mouth runneth more ouer , when he saith , they dispisethe solemne worship and service of God , and whatsoever good thing else &c. And the slander is so much the greater , because we dare boldlie and in the presence of God affirme , that we are see farre of from the gilte of this crime , that the accuser of the brethren himself , can nor justly charge upon us the contempt of any good thing sett forth by authoritie , which either we are perswaded is good , or he able to make good . Obedientiam infringit , saith the old Lindvood rule , quisine causi id facit , he is to be charged with contempt or disobedience , that can gine no good reason of his doinge ; the world seeth the reasons of our doings ( good as we are perswaded ) or else lett them be confuted ; with reuerence & patience we suffer for that we cannot doe , doth M. D. call that a despysing ? is it not rather a fullfilling of the law , soe farr as it is intended it should be kepte ? is it not as sure a signe of subjection , & doth it not free as much from despising as obebience it self ? aske Bb. Bilson & he will tell you : (p) (p) Conz . Apol: Seme part 2. pag. 349. why then doth M. D. thus traduce us ? It were well for the Bbs. themselues and their adherents , ( M. D. not excepted ) . Yf this burshen laie not heavye upon them then upon us : how they regard authoritie , maie easily appeare , yf we consider there notorious & wilfull transgression of manie good & profitable Canons & constitutions ; as (1) (1) Injunct art. 3.4 . that which requireth 12 sermons yeatly in euery parish (2) (2) art 44 & rub : before confirm : that which enjoyneth them to catechise their parishioners euery fabboth (3) (3) Can episc pa. 41 16. that which willeth them to examine their people before they come to the communion (4) (4) In●● act art. 23 rub . before the Com. that which debarreth from the communion all notorious offenders (5) (5) Injunct art. 20. that which commandeth to keep holy the sabboth by visiting the sick , & reconciling of enemies betwene & after the publik exercises (6) (6) Can: episcop. pa. 79. that which requireth private admonition to be used before publique presentments (7) (7) Injunct art. 14. that which allotteth to the poore , the 40 parte of non residents livings (8) (8) Injunct art. 12. that which appointeth 4. l. yearely to be payd out of euerye livinge worth per annum 100 , l. for the keeping of a scholler , at the vniuersitie (9) (9) Can: Ep: p 51. that which forbiddeth the granting of advousions (10) (10) Can epis . p. 25. that which affirmeth pluralities & non residences to be res in se soeda , in vulgus odiosa , & ecclesiae Dei pernitiosa (11) (11) Injunct art. u. 34.34 that which injoyneth the abolishing out of Churches & houses all superstitious pictures & paintings in walles or glassewindowes &c. are not these Canons & constitutions with manie moe , good & profitable & well sett forth by authoritie ? are they well or ill observed by our opposites ? lett M.D. therefore take back againe this imputation to himself & the men of his syd , onely I confesse , that if by solemne service , he meaneth that of the organes in Paules & such like places ; then in deed we doe not soe highely esteme therof , as they . His second charge is , that they not onely vilify and disgrace the ministery of those that are conformable , though not inferiour , but in many graces by manie degrees superior to manie of those whom they admire ; but also incourage by all meanes their admired Ministers to stand out as though they had rather want the food of their souls , then not to enioye their fancies &c. In deed M. D. did well to notify what Ministers he ment ; namely not the ignorant & blinde guides , the ydle and scandalous parsons , such as have no conscience to execute their ministrie , though with titles and degrees they grow so fast , that a new world must be made , or many of them will faile of their hopes , and want their desyred dignities : all who carrie in themselues the cause of contempt ; and are soe marked out by M. D. in his former sermon of the dignitie & dutie of the Ministers that it is no merveil they be in disgrace . He meaneth not such I saie , but those who according to their places and graces take paines amonge their people , though otherwise conformable . Well , if soe , & they be despised in deed , lett it be examined whether they have not brought the contempt upon their owne heades ? are not some of them reeds shaken with the wind ; & like wethercocks turned round ? have they not in one day preached earnestly for reformation , & in another against it ? in one daie practized contrarie to the ceremonies , & in another persecuted their people for not joyning with them in use of them ? have not others of them subscribed ( as themselues confesse ) they know not to what ? and in deed have manie of them soe much as read , much lesse considered those fyve bookes to which they have subscribed ? professe not manie of them , they will not read these bookes , because they will not be troubled with it ? have not diuerse others , with as little wit as honestie giuen out , they will not loose their cocks of barley , there pease ricks , their rie and wheate sheaves for such trifles ? and what ever their gifts be , when they preach ; stuffe they not their sermons full of gt . & latin , Fathers & Fables , outcries & exclamations ag : Calvin , Beza , Cartwrite , Puritans &c. calling for the sword of the Mag: & crying crucifige ; so making the heart of the rightuous sadd , and strengthninge the hand of the wicked ? all which considered , no great merveile , is it , though they have not such place in the hearts of the forwarder sort , & reuerence from them as they expecte , nether in deed ought they if M. D. saie true in his former sermon . But if he meane it of such Ministers as being of good gifts ( though conformable ) doe in Godly purenes and simplicity according to the grace receyved , execute their ministrie ; ( of which sort we know and acknowledg manie amonge us ) I will be so bold as tell him that the first part of this second imputation is a well knowne slander & the frequentinge of their ministerie by the best Christians in citie and cuntrie , & that with traveyle thereto 2.3.4.5.6.8.10 . myles at a time , & contributing to their maintenance , doth prove it so to be . As for their incouraging of their admired Ministers to stand out , therein , what doe they but their duties ? ought they not to deale so with them , that they maie contynue & perseyer in their good cause ; & not for loue of meede , & feare of need , goe back , sell the truth & wreck their consciences shall it not be their sin to discourage them , & by neglecting them to occasion or driue them to Apostacie ? & must it needs argue , that therefore they esteme not the Ministeries false word their chife treasure , but had rather want the foood of their souls , then not to enjoye their fancies &c. as he saith ? verely , how false this is , manie places wittnes , where the people yeilding and paying their tithes , to their Parsons and Curates who are little better thou theeves and robbers ; doe notwithstanding to their great charge mainteine preachers that conforme , and otherwise to their great trouble , charge & perill , traveil many milles to heare them : In his third Charge as out of a murdering peece , he shooteth all kinds of shott , knyves , daggers , bullet , hayleshott and all , as if he would kill all afore him : but in truth in the discharge of it , it recoyleth yea reboundeth upon himself & his . First , saith he , they place the height of religion in disconformitie , how much more truely may we saie it of him and the Bbs. ( diuerse of them ) who place it in conformitie , the substance in ceremonie , the forme & that which giueth the very being to it , in formalitie . Doe we forsake the assemblies where the ceremonies are used ? refuse we to comunicate with the Ministers that use them ? doe not they withhold the ministers from preaching and administring the sacraments that subscribe not , & conforme not ? and which is more , doe they not suspend , excom: & cutt of from the Church for want of it ? doth not their Canon decree suspension , for Minister and people both , that conforme not to that one gesture , of kneeling to receyve the supper ? Secondly he telleth us , they turne zeale into faction , combine themselues into a divided brotherhood &c. Cruelly , disdeynefully and spite fully speaketh he against the rightuous , & the accusers heart knoweth how innocent they are herein , lett him name us the man that hath his hand in this trespasse , as not to esteme them brethren that conforme , or to refuse society with them for it : doe we not as Policarp and Anicetus , Policrates and Victor , communicate one with another , though we dissent one of us from another in some ceremonies as they did in other ? But as he and others write , soe they speak and preach , and seek by such calumniations to estrang from us , yea to inflame his Magisties heart , & the hearts of his Nobles , Iudges , Iustices and people against us . Lett him remember what Iulian once sayd , si accusasse sufficiat , quis crit innocens ? yf it be enough to accuse , who shal be innocent ? not Moses , not Ezra , not Nehemy , not the prophets , not Christ himself , nor his Apostles , upon all whom this verie slander laie . And whereas through these & such lik slanders our Opposites have soe preveyled against us with our Soueraigne , ( as others by the like did against Chrisostom (q) (q) Bilson cont. Apol: Sem. part 2. p. 210. with Arcadius , ) that they which have petitioned for us , ( as others did for him ) are now , as then , reproached as troublers of the state ; and the more we are sued for , the hardlyer both we & our freinds are used ; I wish the accusers , M. D. especially , to withdrawe their hands out of this trespasse , leste they drawe much blood upon them , & the Lord look upon it & require it . Thirdly , they turne , saith he . Godly conferences into bitter invectives ag : Bbs. & odious censures of such as they call formalists &c. Yf we conferre & dispute of the discipline and use of the ceremonies so urged , what merveil ? would not any one gladly see whether Christ & his Apostles euer ordeyned such yokes to be layd upon the necks of his disciples , by such Taskmasters as plague their purses by excessive fees and exactions , wearie their bodies with longe journeyes to and fro their courts 500 myles in a yeare ; tyrannize ouer their soules with Canons and Constitutions , sett thick and threefold as snares and trapps to ketch in , and to that end talk and conferre about them , that if at be the yoak of Christ , they maie willingly beare it , if not , as it is not , gladly and by good meanes be ridd of it ? but that they turne all their studie of the scriptures in such disputaitons &c. is also vntrue : and if there be a fault committed , it is in studying and conferring of these matters to little , rather then too much . The accusation in deed lieth upon the men of his owne syde , who for Godly conferences , orderly disputations , and graue sermons , be ( many of them ) nothing else , for the moste part , but make odious invectiues , giue forth vnjust censures , slanderous reproaches , filling pulpitts , benches , consistories , & fornishing printers presses with little other stoffe , but such and such false imputations of combination , faction , sedition , puritanime , & odious termes of schismatikes , humorists , refractaries &c. & what else can we look for , at other mens hands , when M. D. pen is full of them ? Fourthly he blameth them for being ignorant in the Catechism , & yet to stand upon these things . A fault in deed : & if those whom he counteth the forwarder sort be ignorant of the Catechism , what are the backwardder ? but where is the fault ? is it not in such as should instructe them better ; but disdeine to teach the Catechism , it is soe base a service ; or if they teach it , doe it but for fashion , even to pronounce a fewe words without vnderstanding more like parrats & popingaies then otherwise ? But lett us heare his laste slander in this 3. charge , where he saith , they confine their charitie to their divided brotherhood , as if they ministred to the necessitie of no other , but those that are as forward as themselues . The which is soe notoriously false in the knowledge of all men , that all men maie wonder , how it slipped from his pen . Yf men , who by the labours of the Ministers are brought to the knowledg of the truth , conuerted to God , & confirmed in good , have shewed mercie & compassion to those Ministers , their wyves & children , wrongefully deprived of their lyvings , & exposed to poverrie , or wreck of conscience : have they done otherwise then the Lord requireth of them & the Saints have practized ? (r) (r) 1 thes. 5.12.13 . Gal. 4.13.14 〈◊〉 6 6. what meaneth M. D. eie then , to be evill because others are good ? is he greeved that we liue , that there are yet some fewe lefte to seek the wealth of Israell ? wisheth he with Caligula , that we had all but one neck , & in his hands a sword to cutt it of at one strok ; that he cannot passe by in silence , or speak with charitie of that benevolence that is ministred to us ? or doth his mouth crave it of his pen , have we too much & he to little , would he have part with us ? yf soe , we will speak for him . But the truth is , this imputation must goe home from whence it cam ; even to himself and others of his syd , whose charitie , if it were not confyned to their divided brotherhood of conformitans , why crie they out upon those that succour us , & speak evill upon the lyving & the dead both , for giving to us ; condemninge it as given to impious uses ? yea what else meaneth the taking of that from us , which is giuen to us , and bestowing it upon formalists ? Lord lay not this sin to their charge .