NOW Sir , what thinke you of M S ▪ Iohns tryall in Star-Chamber ? I know that the bruite ranne that he was hardly dealt withall , because he was imprisoned in the Towre , seeing his disswasion from granting a Benevolence to the King was warranted by the Law .

Surely Sir it was made manifest at the hearing , that M.S. Iohn was rather in loue with his owne letter ; he confessed hee had seene your Lordships letter before hee wrote his to the Maior of Marleborough , and in your Lordships letter there was not a word whereto the Statutes by M t S t Iohn alleadged , had reference ; for those Statutes did condemne the gathering of money from the Subject , vnder title of a free gift ▪ whereas a fift , a sixt , a tenth , &c. was set downe and required . But my good Lord , though diuers Shires haue giuen to his Maiestie , some more , some lesse , what is this to the Kings debt ?

It is true my good Lord : but your Lordship will find , that when by these you haue drawn many petty summs from the subjects , & those sometimes spent as fast as they are gathered , his Maiesty being nothing enabled thereby , when you shal be forced to demand your great aide , the countrey will excuse it selfe in regard of their former payments .

What meane you by the great aide ?

I meane the aide of Parliament .

By Parliament , I would faine know the man that durst perswade the King vnto it , for if it should succeed ill , in what case were he ?

You say well for your selfe my Lord : and perchance you that are louers of your selues ( vnder pardon ) do follow the advice of the late Duke of Alva , who was euer opposite to all resolutions in businesse of importance ; for if the things enterprized succeeded wel , the advice neuer came in question : If ill , ( whereto great vndertakings are commonly subiect ) he then made his advantage by remembring his countrey councell : But my good Lord , these reserued Polititians are not the best seruants , for hee that is bound to adventure his life for his Master , is also bound to adventure his advice , Keep not backe councell ( saith Ecclesiasticus ) when it may doe good .

But Sir , I speake it not in other respect then I think it dangerous for the King to assemble the three estates , for thereby haue our former kings alwaies lost somwhat of their prerogatiues . And because that you shall not thinke that I speake it at randome , I will begin with elder times , wherein the first contention began betwixt the Kings of this land , and their subiects in Parliament .

Your Lordship shall doe me a singular fauour .

You know that the Kings of England had no formal Parliament till about the 18 th yeare of Henry the first , for in his 17 yeare , for the marriage of his daughter , the King raised a tax vpon euery hide of land by the advice of his privy councell alone . But you may remember how the subiects soone after the establishment of this Parliament , beganne to stand vpon termes with the King , and drew from him by strong hand and the sword the great Charter .

Your Lordship sayes well , they drew from the King the great Charter by the sword , and hereof the Parliament cannot be accused , but the Lords .

You say well , but it was after the establishment of the Parliament , & by colour of it , that they had so great daring , for before that time they could not endure to heare of S Edwards lawes , but resisted the confirmation in all they could , although by those lawes the Subjects of this Iland were no lesse free then any of all Europe .

My good Lord , the reason is manifest ; for while the Normans & other of the French that followed the Conquerour , made spoyle of the English , they would not endure that any thing but the will of the Conquerour should stand for Law : but after a discent or two when themselues were become English , & found themselues beaten with their own rods , they then began to sauour the difference betweene subjection & slauery , & insist vpon the law , Meum & Tuum : & to be able to say vnto themselues , hoc fac & vives : yea that the conquering English in Ireland did the like , your Lordship knowes it better than I.

I thinke you guesse aright : And to the end the subiect may know that being a faithfull seruant to his Prince he might enioy his own life , and paying to his Prince what belongs to a Soueraigne , the remainder was his own to dispose . Henry the first to content his Vassals , gaue them the great Charter , and the Charter of Forrests .

What reason then had K. Iohn to deny the confirmation ?

He did not , but he on the contrary confirmed both the Charters with additions , & required the Pope whom he had them made his superior to strengthen him with a golden bul .

But your honour knowes , that it was not long after , that he repented himselfe .

It is true , & he had reason so to do , for the Barons refused to follow him into France , as they ought to haue done , and to say true , this great Charter vpon which you insist so much , was not originally granted Regally and freely : for Henry the first did vsurpe the kingdome , and therefore the better to assure himselfe against Robert his eldest brother , hee flattered his Nobility and people with those Charters . Yea King Iohn that confirmed them had the like respect : for Arthur Duke of Britaine , was the vndoubted heire of the crowne , vpon whom Iohn vsurped . And so to conclude , these Charters had their originall from Kings de facto but not de iure .

But King Iohn confirmed the Charter after the death of his Nephew Arthur , when he was then Rex de iure also .

It is true , for he durst doe no other , standing accursed , whereby few or none obeyed him , for his Nobility refused to follow him into Scotland : and he had so grieued the people by pulling downe all the Parke pales before harvest , to the end his deere might spoyle the Corne ; And by seizing the temporalities of so many Bishoprickes into his hands , and chiefly for practizing the death of the Duke of Brittaine his Nephew , as also hauing lost Normandy to the French , so as the hearts of all men were turned from him .

Nay by your fauour my Lord . King Iohn restored K. Edwards Lawes after his absolution , and wrote his letters in the 15 ● of his reigne to all Sheriffes countermaunding all former oppressions , yea this he did notwithstanding the Lords refused to follow him into France .

Pardon me , he did not restore King Edwards Lawes then , nor yet confirmed the Charters , but he promised vpon his absolution to doe both : but after his returne out of France , in his 16 th yeare he denyed it , because without such a promise he had not obtained restitution , his promise being constrained , and not voluntary .

But what thinke you ? was hee not bound in honour to performe it ?

But King Iohn was not in prison .

Yet for all that , restraint is imprisonment , yea , feare it selfe is imprisonment , and the King was subject to both : I know there is nothing more kingly in a King than the performance of his word ; but yet of a word freely and voluntarily giuen . Neither was the Charter of Henry the first so published , that all men might plead it for their advantage : but a Charter was left ( in deposito ) in the hands of the Archbishop of Canterbury for the time , and so to his successours . Stephen Langthon , who was euer a Traytor to the King , produced this Charter , and shewed it to the Barons , thereby encouraging them to make warre against the King . Neither was it the old Charter simplie the Barons sought to haue confirmed , but they presented vnto the King other articles and orders , tending to the alteration of the whole common-wealth , which when the King refused to signe , the Barons presently put themselues into the field , and in rebellious and outragious fashion sent the King word except he confirmed them , they would not desist from making warre against him till he had satisfied them therein . And in conclusion , the king being betrayed of all his Nobility , in effect was forced to graunt the Charter of Magna Charta , and Charta de Forestis , at such time as he was invironed with an Army in the meadowes of Staynes , which Charters being procured by force , Pope Innocent afterward disavowed , & threatned to curse the Barons if they submitted not themselues as they ought to their Soueraigne Lord , which when the Lords refused to obey , the King entertained an army of strangers for his own defence , wherewith hauing mastered & beaten the Barons , they called in Lewes of France ( a most vnnaturall resolution ) to be their King . Neither was Magna charta a law in the 19 th of Henry the 2● , but simply a Charter which hee confirmed in the 21 ● of his reigne , & made it a law in the 25 th , according to Littletons opinion . Thus much for the beginning of the great Charter , which had first an obscure birth from vsurpation , and was secondly fostered & shewed to the world by rebellion .

I cannot deny but that all your Lordship hath said is true ; but seeing the Charters were afterwards so many times confirmed by Parliament & made lawes , & that there is nothing in them vnequall or prejudicial to the King : doth not your Honour thinke it reason they should be obserued ?

Yes , & obserued they are in all that the state of a King can permit , for no man is destroyed but by the lawes of the land , no man disseized of his inheritance but by the lawes of the land , imprisoned they are by the prerogatiue where the King hath cause to suspect their loyaltie : for were it otherwise , the King should neuer come to the knowledge of any conspiracy or treason against his Person or state , and being imprisoned , yet doth not any man suffer death but by the law of the land .

But may it please your Lordship , were not Cornewallis , Sharpe , & Hoskins , imprisoned , being no suspition of treason there ?

They were , but it cost them nothing .

And what got the King by it ? for in the conclusion ( besides the murmure of the people ) Cornewallis , Sharpe , & Hoskins hauing greatly ouershot themselues , and repented them , a fine of 5 or 600 l was laid on his Maiesty for their offences , for so much their diet cost his Maiestie .

I know who gaue the advice , sure I am that it was none of mine : But thus I say , if you consult your memory , you shall finde that those kings which did in their own times confirme the Magna Charta , did not onely imprison , but they caused of their Nobility and others to bee slaine without hearing or tryall .

My good Lord , if you will giue me leaue to speak freely , I say , that they are not well advised that perswade the King not to admit the Magna Charta with the former reseruations . For as the King can neuer loose a farthing by it , as I shall proue anon : So except England were as Naples is , and kept by Garrisons of another Nation , it is impossible for a King of England to greaten and inrich himselfe by any way so assuredly , as by the loue of his people : For by one rebellion the King hath more losse then by a hundred yeares observance of Magna Charta . For therein haue our Kings beene forced to compound with Roagues and Rebels , and to pardon them , yea the state of the King , the Monarchie , the Nobility haue beene endangered by them .

Well Sir , let that passe , why should not our kings raise mony as the kings of France doe by their letters and Edicts only ? for since the time of Lewes the 11 th , of whom it is said , that hee freed the French Kings of their wardship , the French Kings haue seldome assembled the States for any contribution .

I will tell you why ; the strength of England doth consist of the people and Yeomanry , the Pesants of France haue no courage nor armes : In France euery Village and Burrough hath a castle , which the French call Chastean Villain , euery good citty hath a good Cittadell , the king hath the Regiments of his guards and his men at armes alwayes in pay ; yea the Nobility of France in whom the strength of France consists , doe alwaies assist their King in those leavies , because them selues being free , they make the same leavies vpon their tennants . But my Lord , if you marke it , France was neuer free in effect from ciuill warres , and lately it was endangered either to be conquered by the Spaniard , or to be cantonized by the rebellious French themselues , since that freedome of Wardship . But my good Lord , to leaue this digression , that wherein I would willingly satisfie your Lordship , is , that the kings of England haue neuer receiued losse by Parliament , or preiudice .

No Sir , you shall find that the subiects in Parliament haue decreed great things to the disadvantage and dishonour of our kings in former times .

I confesse , my Lord , that the house excused themselues by reason of their pouerty , and the Lords taking of Armes ; in the next yeare it was manifest that the house was practised against the king : And was it not so , my good Lord thinke you in our two last Parliaments , for in the first euen those whom his Majestie trusted most , betrayed him in the vnion , & in the second there were other of the great ones ran counter . But your Lordship spake of dangers of Parliaments , in this , my Lord , there was a deniall , but there was no danger at all : But to returne where I left , what got the Lords by practizing the house at that time ? I say that those that brake this staffe vpon the K. were ouerturned with the counterbuffe , for hee resumed all those lands which hee had given in his minority , hee called all his exacting officers to accompt , hee found them all faulty , hee examined the corruption of other magistrates , and from all these he drew sufficient mony to satisfie his present necessity , whereby hee not onely spared his people , but highly contented them with an act of so great Iustice : Yea Hubert Earle of Kent , the chiefe justice whom hee had most trusted , and most advanced , was found as false to the King , as any one of the rest . And for conclusion in the end of that yeare at the assemblie of the States at Lambeth , the King had the fortith part of euery mans goods given him freely towards his debts , for the people , who the same yeare had refused to giue the King any thing , when they sawe hee had squeased those spunges of the common wealth , they willingly yeelded to giue him satisfaction .

But I pray you , what became of this Hubert , whom the King had favoured aboue all men , betraying his Majestie as he did .

There were many that perswaded the King to put him to death , but he could not be drawne to consent , but the King seized vpon his estate which was great ; yet in the end hee left him a sufficient portion , and gaue him his life because hee had done great service in former times : For his Majestie , though hee tooke advantage of his vice , yet hee forgot not to haue consideration of his vertue . And vpon this occasion it was that the King , betrayed by those whom hee most trusted , entertayned strangers , and gaue them their offices and the charge of his castles and strong places in England .

But the drawing in of those strangers was the cause that Marshall Earle of Pembroke moued warre against the King .

It is true , my good Lord , but hee was soone after slaine in Ireland , and his whole masculine race , ten yeres extinguished , though there were fiue sonnes of them , & Marshall being dead , who was the mouer and ring-leader of that warre , the King pardoned the rest of the Lords that had assisted Marshall .

What reason had the King so to doe ?

Because he was perswaded , that they loued his person , & only hated those corrupt Counselours , that then bare the greatest sway vnder him , as also because they were the best men of warre hee had , whom if he destroyed , hauing warre with the French , he had wanted Commanders to haue served him .

But what reason had the Lords to take armes ?

Because the King entertayned the Poictoui●s , were not they the Kings vassals also ? Should the Spaniards rebell , because the Spanish King trusts to the Neopolitans , Portagues , Millanoies , and other nations his vassals , seeing those that are governed by the Vice-royes and deputies , are in pollicy to be well entertayned and to be employed , who would otherwise devise how to free themselues ; whereas , beeing trusted and imployed by their Prince , they entertaine themselues with the hopes that other the Kings vassals doe . if the King had called in the Spaniards , or other Nations , not his Subjects , the Nobility of England had had reason of griefe . But what people did euer serue the King of England more faithfully then the Gascoynes did even to the last of the conquest of that Duchy .

Your Lordship sayes wel , & I am of that opinion that if it had pleased the Queene of Eng. to haue drawne some of the chiefe of the Irish Nobility into Eng. & by exchange to haue made them good freeholders in Eng. , shee had saued aboue 2. millions of pounds which were consumed in times of those rebellions . For what held the great Gascoigne firme to the Crowne of England ( of whom the Duke of Espernon married the inheritrix ) but his Earldome of Kendall in England , whereof the Duke of Espernon ( in right of his wife ) beares the title to this day . And to the same end I take it , hath Iames our Soueraigne Lord given lands to divers of the Nobility of Scotland . And if I were worthy to advise your Lordship , I should thinke that your Lordship should do the King great service to put him in mind to prohibite all the Scottish nation to alienate and sell away their inheritance here ; for they selling , they not only giue cause to the English to complaine that the treasure of England is transported into Scotland , but his Majesty is thereby also frustrated of making both Nations one , and of assuring the service and obedience of the Scots in future .

You say well , for though those of Scotland that are advanced and enriched by the Kings Majesties will , no doubt serue him faithfully , yet how their heires & successours , hauing no inheritance to loose in England may be seduced is vncertaine . But let vs goe on with our Parliament . And what say you to the deniall in the 26 ● yeare of his reigne , even when the King was invited to come into France by the Earle of March , who had married his mother , and who promised to assist the King in the conquest of many places lost .

It is true , my good Lord , that a subsidy was then denied , & the reasons are delivered in Enlish histories , & indeed the King not long before had spent much treasure in ayding the Duke of Britaine to no purpose , for hee drew ouer the King but to drawe on good conditions for himselfe , as the Earle of March his father in law now did : As the English Barons did invite Lewes of France not long before , as in elder times all the kings and states had done , and in late yeares the Leaguers of France entertayned the Spaniards , and the French Protestants and Netherlands , Queene Elizabeth , not with any purpose to greaten those that ayde them , but to purchase to themselues an advantageous peace . But what say the histories to this deniall ? they say with a world of payments there mentioned , that the King had drawne the Nobility drie . And besides , that whereas not long before great summes of mony were giuen , and the same appointed to be kept in foure castles , and not to be expended but by the aduice of the Peeres ; it was beleeved that the same treasure was yet vnspent .

Good Sir you haue said enough , judge you whether it were not a dishonour to the King to be so tyed , as not to expend his treasure , but by other mens aduice as it were by their licence .

Surely my Lord , the King was well aduised to take the mony vpon any condition , & they were fooles that propounded the restraint , for it doth not appeare that the King tooke any great heed to those ouerseers . Kings are bound by their piety and by no other obligation . In Queene Maries time , when it was thought that shee was with child , it was propounded in Parliament , that the rule of the Realme should bee giuen to king Philip during the minority of the hoped Prince or Princesse , and the king offered his assurance in great summes of money to relinquish the government at such time as the Prince or Princesse should bee of age : At which motion when all else were silent in the house , Lord Dueres ( who was none of the wisest ) asked who shall sue the kinges bondes , which ended the dispute , for what bonde is betweene a king and his vassals , then the bond of the kinges faith ) But my good Lord the king notwithstanding the deniall at that time was with gifts from perticular parsons , & otherwise supplyed for proceeding of his iourney for that time into France , he tooke with him 30 caskes filled with silver and coyne which was a great treasure in those dayes . And lastly notwithstanding the first denyall in the Kings absence hee had Escuage graunted him ( to wit ) 20 s of euery Knights Fee .

What say you then to the 28● yeare of that King in which when the King demaunded reliefe , the states would not consent except the same former order had bin taken for the appointing of 4 overseers for the treasure . As also that the Lord chief Iustice & the Lord Chancellor should be chosen by the states with some Barons of the exchequor & other officers .

My good Lord admit the King had yeelded their demaunds , then whatsoever had beene ordained by those magistrates to the dislike of the Common wealth , the people had beene without remedie , whereas while the King made them they , had their appeale and other remedies . But those demaunds vanished and in the end the King had escuage giuen him without any of their conditions . It is an excellent vertue in a King to haue patience and to giue way to the fury of mens passions . The whale when he is stroken by the fisherman , growes into that fury , that he cannot be resisted , but will overthrowe all the ships and barkes that come in to his way , but when he hath tumbled a while , hee is drawne to the shore with a twind thred .

What say you then to the Parliament in the 29 th of that King .

I say that the commons being vnable to pay , the king relieues himselfe vpon the richer sort , and soe it likewise happened in the 33 of that king , in which hee was relieued chiefely by the Citty of London . But my good Lord in the Parliament in London in the 38 yeare , he had giuen him the tenth of all the revenues of the Church for three yeares , and 3 markes of every knights Fee throughout the kingdome vpon his promise & oath vpon the obscruing of magna Charta but in the end of the same yeare , the king being then in France , he was denyed the aydes which he required . What is this to the danger of a Parliament ? especially at this time they had reason to refuse , they had giuen so great a some in the beginning of the same yeare . And again because it was known that the King had but pretended warre with the king of Castile with whome he had secretly contracted an alliance and concluded a marriage betwixt his sonne Edward and the Lady Elenor. These false fires doe but freight Children and it commonly falles out that when the cause giuen is knowne to be false , the necessity pretended is thought to be fained , Royall dealing hath euermore Royall successe : and as the King was denied in the eight & thirtyeth yeare , so was he denyed in the nine & thirtieth yeare , because the Nobility and the people saw , that the King was abused by the Pope it plainly who aswell in despite to Manfred bastard son to the Emperour Fredericke the second , as to cozen the King and to wast him , would needes bestowe on the King the kingdome of Sicilie , to recouer which , the King sent all the treasure he could borrow or scrape to the Pope , and withall gaue him letters of credence , for to take vp what he could in Italy , the King binding himselfe for the payment . Now my good Lord the wisdome of Princes is seen in nothing more then in their enterprises . So how vnpleasing it was to the State of England to consume the treasure of the land , & in the conquest of Sicily so farre of , and otherwise for that the English had lost Normandy vnder their noses and so many goodly parts of France of their owne proper inheritances : the reason of the deniall is as well to be considered as the denyall .

Was not the King also denyed a subsidie in the fourty first of his raigne ?

No my Lord , for although the King required mony as before for the impossible conquest of Sicily , yet the house offered to giue 52000 markes , which whether hee refused or accepted is vncertaine , & whilst the King dreamed of Sicily , the Welsh inuaded & spoyled the borders of England , for in the Parliament of London , when the King vrged the house for the prosecuting the conquest of Sicily , the Lords vtterly disliking the attempt , vrged the prosecuting of the Welshmen : which Parlament being proroged did again assemble at Oxford , & was called the madde Parlament , which was no other than an assembly of rebels , for the Royall assent of the K. which giues life to all lawes , form'd by the three estates , was not a Royal assent , when both the K. & the Prince were constrained to yeeld to the Lords . A constrained consent is the consent of a Captiue & not of a K. , & therefore there was nothing done there either legally or royally . For if it be not properly a Parliament where the subiect is not free , certainely it can be none where the King is bound , for all Kingly rule was taken from the King , and twelue Peeres appointed , and as some writers haue it 24 Peeres , to gouerne the Realme , and therefore the assembly made by Iack Strawe & other rebels may aswell bee called a Parliament as that of Oxford . Principis nomen habere , non est esse Princeps , for thereby was the King driuen not only to compound all quarrels with the French , but to haue meanes to be revenged on the rebell Lords : but he quitted his right to Normandy Aniou & Mayne .

But sir what needed this extremity , seeing the Lords required but the confirmation of the former Charter , which was not preiudiciall to the King to graunt ?

Yes my good Lord , but they insulted vpon the King and would not suffer him to enter into his own castles , they put downe the Purvey or of the meate for the maintenance of his house as if the King had beene a bankrupt , and gaue order that without ready money he should not take vp a Chicken . And though there is nothing against the royalty of a King in these Charters ( the Kings of England beeing Kings of freemen and not of slaues ) yet it is soe contrary to the nature of a King to bee forced euen to those thinges which may be to his advantage , as the King had some reason to seeke the dispensation of his oath from the Pope , and to drawe in strangers for his owne defence : yea Iure saluo Coronae nostrae is intended inclusiuely in all oathes and promises exacted from a Soueraigne .

But you cannot be ignorant how dangerous athing it is to cal in other nations both for the spoile they make , as also so , because they haue often held the possession of the best places with which they haue beene trusted .

It is true my good Lord , that there is nothing so daungerous for a King as to be constrained and held as prisoner to his vassals , for by that , Edward the second , and Richard the second lost their Kingdomes and their liues . And for calling in of strangers , was not King Edward the sixth driuen to call instrangers against the rebels in Norfolke , Cornewall , Oxfordshire and elsewhere ? Haue not the Ks. of Scotland beene oftentimes constrained to entertaine strangers against the Kings of England , And the King of England at this time had he not bin diuerse times assisted by the Kings of Scotland , had bin endangered to haue bin expelled for ever .