A briefe shevv of the false vvares packt together in the named, Apology of the Churche of England. By Iohn Rastell M. of Art and student of diuinitie

A BRIEF SHEW OF CERTAIN NAVGH● tye and false Argumentes made in the Apologie of the Church of England .

The first Chapiter .

Truth doth redely find enemies and slaunderers , Apolog. Maior .

We find enemies and slaunderers . Minor .

Ergo we ought to beare it quietly , Concl●●ion if we be at this day tormented , only because we teache the truth .

TO shew the faultes of this argument , Confut. p. 6. 7. ● . 9. by rules of logike , it were an easie mater : but it wold not be so easily vnderstanded of the common Reader . For his sake therefore , leauing the mode and figure of a logical answer , I wil shew the Absurditie thereof , in that it may be made to serue for the Catholiques also , their Aduersaries . For , Truthe dooth redelye finde enemyes and slaunderers : But the Catholikes at this day , finde enemyes and slaunderers , Ergo they haue the truth . That the Catholikes haue presently their enemies and slaunderers , it may be proued by the whole Booke of Actes and monuments , by M. Iewels Sermon and Replie , by this very Apologie of the Church of England . By al which it apereth , how sharply the Protestants are set , against the Catholikes , and how litle regarde they haue what they write or report of them . Ergo if thei which find enemys haue the truth : wherefore then are so many Catholikes , either in prison within the Realme , either in hatred of their owne Coūtriemen , out of the Realme ? And if the hauing of enemies proueth not , the parties that are hated to be of a good and sincere religion : it concludeth nothing for the Protestants , though they shew themselues to haue enemies . Yea it maketh against them , that by likelihod their doctrine should not be good and credible : because they now the Professours of it , haue all the fauoure that may be shewed in Englande . The right forme of this argument wold be this .

Truth findeth Enemies :

We haue the truth :

Ergo we find enemies .

But now the second proposition can neuer be proued .

So many thousandes of our brethern haue in these last twenty yeares suffred most painful tormentes : Apolog.

Princes desirous to restarine the Gospel haue nothing preuailed :

The whole world now doth begyn to open their eyes to beholde the light :

Ergo our cause already is sufficiently declared and defended .

Death for a religion doth not make a Martyr , Confut. .13 . to the first . As in example of Seruetus the Arrian , whom Caluin procured to be burned at Geneua ▪ and of Ioan of Kent that filth . And the Anabaptists , which to this day suffer death willingly .

So they do make lawes against theues , to the second . and yet the gallowes are dayly occupied . So do weeds arise and grow , be the ground or garden neuer so wel tilled . Yet neither theues nor weeds mai crake of it , that not withstanding the lawes or diligence of men , thei continue stil and maintein their race .

The more like it is , that Antichrist is at hand . For concerning the Gospel of Christ , it doth not begyn now to be knowen : but euery day more and more it shuld wax more obscure toward th end of the world .

This Gospel therefore , which , to beholde , the whole worlde now doth begyn to open their eyes , cummeth so late , that we must looke now for the wicked man to be reueled , 2. The● . 2. and Charitie to wax cold , and faith not to be found perchaunce vpon the earth : Math. 24 Luc. 18. and not to haue any increase of faith , hope or Charity , to be brought into the world .

Oure religion is come at lenght euen to Kinges courtes and palaces : Apologie . Ergo God him selfe doth strongly fight in our quarel .

It came not thither , Confut. 15. before it was sent for . Neyther do you properly turne princes to your Religion , but Princes turne all your preachinges , and procedinges , to serue their affections . So was Peter Martir at his first cumming to England a Lutheran only , but perceiuing afterwards , the Superiour powers to fansie an other way , he folowed also them with all the wit he had , and became an open Zuinglian . Again , you do wel to resort to Princes palacies for argument , because in deede thence is your cheefest ayde and succour .

Let the Scripture ( saith S. Ambrose ) be asked the question , Apolo . let the apostles be asked , let the Prophetes be asked .

Ergo we must vse no other force , but only Scriptures .

It foloweth not : Confu●tion . 3. for after al them , I may aske also , what S. Ambrose himselfe thinketh vpon the Scripture , Apostle , or Prophete . And wher as by many means , one in order aboue an other , a way is prepared to any knowledge , the vsing of the chiefest , must not exclude al the inferiour from their places . Again , why hath M. Iewel stuffed his Reply with so many allegations of phrases of doctours : and left it so void of expresse Scripture , if no other force , but of scriptures , is to be vsed ?

Christ is euer present , Apolog. to assist his Churche .

Christ nedeth not any man , to supply his roome .

No one mortal creature is able to comprehend in his mind al the parts of the world .

Ergo there neither is , neither can be any one man , which may haue the whole superioritie in the Church .

He is present in deede by his power , Conf. 45. To the firste . and truth , and grace : but to the external eye he is not present , and sensible men require a sensible Gouernour .

Christ nedeth nothing , To the. 2. yet for because of his wisdom and mercy , he communicateh his Office and Glory with men , and doth not al things immediatly by himself : although he be of suche almightines , that he nedeth no helpe .

It is as false as God is true . To the 3. For in dede the powers of the mind ( as the wil , memory , and understanding ) are by nature of that making and capacitie , that nothing vnder God himselfe can fully replenishe it . Yet if one man alone were not hable by himself to comprehende in his mind al the parts of the world , neuerthelesse by his officers he may doe it , though the whole were as bigge againe as it is .

Last of al , to stoppe your mouthes with feare , whom reason doth not persuade ye may , by these arguments , pluck the Croune from the heads of al Kings and Princes . For Gods prouidence ( you may say ) is ouer the whole world . And he nedeth no helper , And no Prince is hable to comprehend in his mynd al parts of his Dominion , how litle so euer it be .

The Bishop of Rome doth not his duty , Apolo . as he ought to doe . Ergo , we saye he ought not once to be called a Bishop , or so much as an elder .

The person and the office which any person beareth are distinct things : Confut●tion . 5● . And the vocation of Bisshop or King is to be honor●d , though the conditions of them shuld be contemptible for their lust and idlenes . Seruants are commaunded to obey their masters , not only when they be good and modest , 1 Pet. 2. but also if they be froward . And further , what are you that iudge , I wil not say , an other mans seruant , but your own lauful head and Bishope ? And if yow refuse his Authoritie for your part : why iudge you yet the Chiefe Bisshope of the Catholikes ? To be short , if it shal be considered , how greauous the Heretikes , and Turkes , and vnruly Christians , are to the Church of Christ , and what hath ben done by Popes euen in our dayes , for calling of a general Councel , and for defence of Christendom against the Infidels , and for suppressing of euyll maners : ther wil be litle occasion left , to reproue the Pope for not doing his duty .

A wonderfull vncleanenesse of life & maners hath followed vppon the lawe , Apolog. which commaunded pristes to liue single . Ergo mariage is holy & honorable in all sorts & stats of persons , & it was no good lawe which did forbid priestes to mary .

This disproueth not the lawe , Coufntation 78. but it betraieth the foule and corrupt inclinations of them , for whome the lawe was made . Without the Lawe , synne was dead ( sayeth the Apostle ) And I had not knowen ( sayeth he ) what concupiscence had bene , Rom. 7. except the law had sayd , thou shalt not lust . So is it , in the actes of parlament , which are wisely and profitably made for taking away the excesse and costlynes of apparel . For , Thou shalt weare no sylke ( sayth the lawe ) except thou mayst spend yerely by office or landes a certayne Somme . And by this , one wolde thinke , that poore seruing men shoulde not spende so much in their apparel , as before they did . Lesse robbing then and filching must folowe , and the common welth shall be quiet and rich . But the euent declareth , that it is bestowed now vpon the making of the cote , that which is diminisshed in the sylke that shoulde go to the cote . And superfluities are not diminished , but increased , and the mater of them is not taken away , but the forme is altered . Doe not therfore put any fault in an holy or goo● law , if sinne ▪ by occasion therof should en●●crease and multiply : but reproueth the coneupiscence and lust of them , which call not for the grace of God , that they may be able to kepe the good law .

We affirme , Apolog that Christ doth truely & presently geue his owne selfe in his Sacramentes . Ergo we meane not to abase the Lordes supper .

This doth not folow . Con●ut . 1●9 . For whereas the mind of Christ is , that in the open house which he kepeth , his owne pretious body should be geuen vnder form of bread , and that so freely and bountifully , that come who would , either frind or foe , he would not change his word and gift for that mater ( although he wold haue a saying vnto them , that by their vnworthy receiuing did frustrat his gratious benefit ) he that in this case saith , that Christ geueth him self truly , really ▪ substantially ▪ yea bodily and corporally vnto them that do receaue him by faith and charity , he speketh vndoutedly a great and a true word . But if he adde , that to them that haue no faith and charity he doth not geaue his true and real body , he abuseth the excellency and worthines of the prouision that is made . For the gift were not certain , and perfit , and consisting of the geuers own power only and goodnes , if the faith of the receauer should either make it , or marr it . You therfore that can speake excellently and substantially of the sacrament , do for al that abase Christs bountefulnes , because ye beleue not , that absolutly without respecte had to any persons he geaueth himself truely in his Sacraments , but that he geueth him self truly and presently only to the faithful receauer of him .

The Lawe of God is perfite , Apol. and requireth of vs ful obedience : Ergo we are able by no meanes , to fulfill that Lawe in this wordely life .

The Answer is easie . Confut. For the holy doctours doe note two kindes of perfections . The one of the waie , in which we walke : August . de p●cca . me●●tis The other of the Countrie , to which we goe . etremiss . lib. 2● C 13. The one of this life , the ●ther of the life to come . The one consisting in deniyng consent vnto concupiscences , notwithstanding we feele manie of them●● the other consisting in a perfite peace of body and soule , without any motion to euill . To fulfil the lawe so , that no motion of euill come to our thoughtes , it is for an other worlde : but not to obey the Concupiscencies , that is such a perfection , as many in this life doe come vnto . and that is a fulfilling of the lawe of God , in respect of our pilgrimage .

Paul sharply rebuked Peter : Apolog Barnabas departed from Paul , &c. Did Catholike Fathers striued one against an other . Ergo we should not be so greatly noted for dissensions which are found among vs .

The Apostles and holy Fathers haue so striued , Con●ut . ●39 . that they kept vnitie of faith and religion . And they were not so set , that they would liue and dye in the quarel . But your Strifes are in principal maters of Religion , and you be so obstinat eche of you in his opinion : that no Authoritie shal make yow geue ouer and yelde : which is not so , emonge the Catholikes , whereas al are obedient vnto one head .

Iustine the Martyr is witnes , Apolog. that al Christians were called , 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , Godlesse . Ergo this ought not to trouble vs , that they cal vs wicked and vngodly men .

The cause is not like . Confuti●●tion . 151. For if infidels speake euil of vs , it is no mater , because they are not our Ordinaries or Iudges . But when the Catholiks , from whom ye receued the faith , and without whom ye can not be sure of the Articles of your faith , when these that haue been and shuld be your Fathers and Rulers doe condemne your deedes : it should be a very simple confort vnto yow , that Infidels of olde tyme did speake against Christians . Of the same kind of argument it is , where you say .

Haman accused the Iewes as a people that vsed certaine new lawes . Fol. 228. The Athenians said to S. Paul : may we know what new doctrine this is ? Celsus writing of purpose against Christ : what , saith he , hath God after so many ages now a● last & so late bethought him selfe ? Eusebius writeth , that Christian religion was called new and strainge : Ergo t●●y b● wicked m●n , spiteful against the religi●●● of God , which cal vs new fangled .

These arguments are naught . For the testimonie of Infidels against Christian● is nothing worth : but the Sentence olde Catholikes vpon newfangled Protestantes , hath much authority in it .

Paul the Apostle found faults & falles euen in the prime & chief of the Gospel : Apolog. so that he was compelled to write sharply to the Galathians & Corinthians . Ergo the Church may faile and goe amisse .

I answer : Confut. 200. faults may be committed , either in life● either in faith . Againe particular churches may erre both in life and faith . The Church of Rome may erre in life , but neuer in faith : because the whole church then shuld be deceiued , as which is bound to obey the chief pastor , like as he is principally bound to feed and instruct it . But this is impossible , Mat. 16. Ioa. n 14. the promises of God standing , and the presence of the Holyghost assisting it . Ergo though S. Paul found errors in particular Churches , this cannot import , that the whol Church may be deceued , or that One Church of Rome , vpon the safty and trust of which the helth of the whole dependeth .

Pighius findeth fault with many abuses brought in , Apolog. euen into the very Masse : Gerson complaineth of a numbre of most fond ceremonies : Ergo the Church may erre .

You might wel say : Confut. 206. Ergo a particular Church may erre in a ceremony or suche like thing about the Masse it self . But this is nothing to the purpose , to proue , that the whole Church may erre , or that the chief Church of al , which is in Rome , may err in faith . Now as Pighius found fault with abuses : so haue the Heades of the Churches geuen charge , Sess. 6. that thei shuld be amended . As in the very last Councel at Trent . By which you may perceiue , that although fauts be found in the church , yet ar they not alowed generally of the Church .

Bernard was no heretike , Apolog. he had not forsaken the Catholike Church : yet neuerthelesse he did not let to cal the Bishops that then were deceiuers , begylers a●●● Pilats . Ergo the Church may erre .

As he letted not to cal som deceuers , Confutation . .209 . et● so he testifieth for other , that they we●● good and faithful Officers in the Church As Martianus the Cardinal and Gaufri● Carnotensis , Bernard . de consideratiōe . both of them , Legates o● the Pope , the one into Dacia , and the other into Aquitania . He prayseth also Eugenius the Pope , excedingly , and yet without flaterie . Whereby it is easy to perceaue , that all were not like them , whome he reproueth . And therefore the whole Churche was not deceiued , though some were Pilates , and not Prelates . An other answer is , that this Obiection doth not proue errour in faith ( of which the question is ) but of maners , which God amend , and which hurt not the good men , no more than the chaffe and strawe doth the pure corne .

The Grekes haue neyther priuate Masse , Apolog● . nor mangled Sacramentes , nor purgatories , nor pardons , Ergo they holde a still numbre of those thinges , which they receiued from the Apostles . Confut● 267.

First the antecedent is starke false . Then concerning the Argument , it is not only false , but folishe also . For it concludeth an Affirmatiue of one kind , of a plaine and pure Negatiue of an other , as if a man would say . The Church of Englande hath neither Crosses in their churches , neither order of Monastical life in their Religion , neither Latine tongue , lightes or ornaments in their Seruice : Er go it holdeth stil a number of those things , which it receiued of S. Austin the Monk .

It is madnes to think , that the Holygost taketh his flight from a general Councel to ●un to Rome : Apolog. Ergo the Pope may erre . Confut. 281.

It is madnes in dede so to think . And wher then had you the wit to imagin it ? For what place can you apoint to a Spirit , and especially what boundes vnto God ? Beware of it , least whiles ye seke so gredily to flout your aduersary , ye blaspheme in your foule termes and Ironies , the holy Ghost our Creatour .

Item , Apolo . what needed so many Bishops , with so greate charges , & so far iourneis haue assembled theyr conuocation at Trident : if the Bishop of Rome must determine al maters : Ergo he may erre .

If you had bene so obedient , Confut. 281. or if other were so wise as they should be , General Councels should not neede . But because the world is now come to that Infirmity and curiositie , that maters must be defended against al obiections of heretikes , and brought againe vnto examination , after they haue ben already determined and beleued : therefore hath the charitie and wisedom of the Pope● stoode to the charges of calling a general Councell , which facte of his doth not proue , that he may erre ( which the holy Ghost wil not suffer for his presence sake in the Church ) but that he doth so reasonably and discreetly order those maters that shal concerne our Faith , that he wil not erre as much as mans wit can prouide : but haue also the Aduise , Consent and Iudgement of other , which are of most authoritie and lerning in the Church of Christ .

Let the Bishope of Rome alone , Apol. be aboue al Councells : Ergo one parte is greater than the whole .

No Syr , Confut. 284 not parte greater than the whole , but parte shall be greater than parte , and one member worthier than an other . The bodie and heade togeather , make the whole : and take away the head ye take away a parte of the whole . Ye can not therfore make a diuision of the church into the whole and the heade : but into the head , and the reast of the partes of the whole . And then it is no absurditie at all , that the heade should be greater in price and honor , than al the other members beside .

Athanasius denied to come to the councell at Cesarea : Apolog.

Athanasius went away from the Councell at Syrmium :

Ihon Chrysostom kept himself at home , although the Emperour commaunded him to come to the Arrians Councel :

Maximus and Paphnutius depa●ted from the Councell at Palestine :

The Bishops of the East would not come to the Councel of Heretiks named Patropassians .

Paulinus and many others moe refused to come to the Councell at Milane :

Ergo we are not to be blamed for not comming to the Councel at Trent .

You mutiply examples al in vaine , Confut. 293. and there is no proportion at al , betwene the holy Fathers constancy , and your disobedience . For they refused to be at the commaundent of heretikes and their Fauourers , but you contempne the lawfull Authority of Catholike Bishops . If ye could truly say it , that the Fathers gathered of late at Trent , were Arrians , Patropassians , or heretikes of any sort : then might you laufully vse the examples of Athanasius , Chrysostome , Maximus , Paphnutius , and other . But for as much as it is impossible , that they could be heretikes , which held no strainge and singular opinions , contrary to the Catholike , common , and receiued faith in the whole world : you haue no excuse left for your pride and disobedience . That Cathalike Bishopes haue refused to come to the conspiracies of heretikes , ye neuer neede to haue proued it . But if ye can shew by any example , that euer any good man yet , did refuse to come to a Councel lawfully called by the Pope : then may that example make for you : but there is none suche to be founde .

None of vs can be suffered to sit in the Councell . Apolog.

The Popes Legats , Patriarchs , Archebishopes , Bishopes and Abbates do conspire togeather , sit alone by them selues , and haue power alone to geue they● consente :

And they wil haue al theyr opinions to be iudged at the will and pleasure of the Pope :

Princes and Embassadoures are but vsed as mocking stockes : Ergo le●●e not the wise and good maruaile , if we haue those rather to sit at home , then to iourney to the Conucel .

The Apostles neuer made such argumentes . Confut. 294 And you if ye had in dede the holy ghost , and if ye were chosen vesselles , to cary the name of God abrode : ye would neuer so childishely either without caus● feare , or if ye had a iust cause , complain● and whine , that you shal not sit , when● you come to the general Councel , or that then ye shal haue a number of Bishope● and Abbates against you , or that al shal● be referred to the Pope , or that they wil● mocke you , if ye goe thither .

For none of all these thinges should haue letted you from telling your opinion● and for the rest you should haue referred al to the will of God , what successe your words should haue had . But either ye be so prowde , that except you maie be of the chiefest , you wil not come into the presence of reuerend and lerned Fathers : or ye be so fainteharted , that except the Prince be on your syde , ye dare non trust the warrant of a safeconduct .

A Christian Prince hath the charge of both tables committed vnto him : Apolog. Ergo not only temporal maters , but Ecclesiastical also pertaine to his office .

He hath the Charge of both tables so far foorth , Confut. .303 . that he must defend the external geauing of due honour vnto God , and outwarde exhibiting of charitie towards our neighbour . But to offer vp Sacrifice , to minister Sacramentes , or to iudge of Murder , Adultery , Theft , or any thing that is committed only in hart , hath he any power ? Euery man seeth , that worldly Princes meddle not with suche maters . And therefore theyr charge is baser and narower , than the charge of Bishopes and Priestes : whom God hath appointed to be his Officers in the inward Courte of Conscience .

The prophets of God commaunded the Kinges to breake doune altars of Idols , Apolog. and to write out the books of the Law , for them selues : Ergo Ecclesiastical maters perteine to the iurisdiction of Kinges .

You see , Confut. 303. then that the Princes are not Supreme , but that betwene them and God , the Prophete is the greater Officer . For the Prophets commaund : the princes obey . The Prophets geaue charge : the princes doe execute it . The prophetes declare what an Idol is , the Princes destroie it according to the prophetes instruction .

Moyses ● Ciuile Magistrate recieued from God , Apolog. and delyuered to the people al the order for religion and sacrifices , and gaue Aaron a sore rebuke for making the golden calfe : Ergo ecclesiastical matters perteyne to the office of princes .

This example agreeth not , Confut. 05. because Moyses was not a Ciuile magistrate only , but also a priest . And he was made also by God the supreme gouernour and captaine ouer al the number of the children of Israel , were they temporal or Spiritual persons , in figure of Christ . If ye can shew that our Sauiour left any such power vnto any king in the world , and that his Apostles were not immediatly next vnto him , the chiefe gouernors of his church : then shal that temporal King haue the power whach ye labour to geaue him .

Iosue receyued commaundementes towchinge Religion and the seruice of God . Apolog. Ergo Ecclesiasticall maters perteyne to theyr Iurisdiction .

He receyued commaundement , Confut. 305. to meditate in the boke of the law , which God had geauen by Moyses , and to keepe it . But this was so far of from a Supremacy in maters Ecclesiasticall , that it is expressly sayd in the boke of Numeri , Cap. 17. that Eleazar the prieste should aske councell of God if any thing were to be done for Iosue , and that Iosue should goe furth and come in at the word of Eleazar .

And this one answer serueth all the Examples which ye bring in of King Dauid , Salomon , Ezechias , Iosaphat , Iosias , Ioas , Iehu . By which ye wold proue , that they had iurisdiction in maters Ecclesiastical . For they dyd nomore then , than Christian princes doe now , euen those princes that are obedient to the See of Rome . For they buyld Churches , and finde Singingmen and Priestes to keepe dayly seruyce , they geaue Bishoprikes , they put Bishoppes byside theyr offices ( as Queene Marie did put Crammer an● Ridly ) and twenty things moe they do abou● maters of religion , not as Supreme Gouernours , but as deuout and faithfull Princes , being glad to doe for the Churche , whatsoeuer the Spiritual heades thereof , shal moue them vnto , and being ready to defend the faith of the Churche , as they shall learne it of their Bishops .

It remaineth then , that you shew , not that the kinges in the olde lawe did set furth the Seruice of God , displace Priests , commaunded the temple to be clensed , destroyed Idols &c: but that they did these things by their absolute power , without asking aduise , leue or instruction of the priests .

Constantine called the Councell at Nice : Apolog. Theodosius the Councel at Constantinople : Theodosius the second the Councel at Ephesus : Martian the Councel at Chalcedon : Ergo Ecclesiastical matters perteine to the Office of Princes .

They called these Councels , Confut. .308 . not by vertue of their supreme autority , but by the assent of the B. of Rome . And so Princes haue to do with the maters of the Churche , at the second hand only .

The Emperour Constantine gaue in the Councel of Nice his aduise to the Bishops , Apolog. how it was best to trie out the mater by the Apostles & Prophets writings : Ergo he bare a great stroke with his Authority in their consultation .

As great stroke as he bare , Confut. .313 . he strake not the head of the Church from the body , nor made himself Supreme . Euse●ius in vita Constant. lib. 3. Theodor. lib. 1. c. 7. But that ye may vnderstand , how litle he toke vpon him , he came in last into the Councel with a smal company , and sate not doune before he had desired the Bishops to permit it . and then also he sate but in a low chaire . As for geuing of aduise , how things were best to be done , it is lauful for the least ●rier , Abbate or Doctor in a Councel , to do the like : and yet euery Frier that speaketh in a general Councel , is not supreme head of the Church : nor of the vocation and Authoritie , to define or geaue sentence on any Canon .

In the third Councel at Con●●antinople , Constantine a Ciuile Magistrate did not only ●itte among the Bishoppes , but did also subscribe with them .

In the Councel called Arausicanum , Apolog. the Princes Embassadours gaue their consent , and put to their handes : Ergo eccles●iastical matters pertein to Princes .

So likewise to subscribe vnto the Decrees of a Councel , Confut. 316. and to geue their consent vnto matters there determined , it is and may be ꝑermitted vnto meane layemen : but to define , determine , decree and geue Authority vnto a Canon , it is neither for Embassadours , nor Ciuile Magistrates , nor Emperours of the whole world , but for Bisshops only , whom God hath apointed to gouerne his Church .

Gods grace is promised to a good mind , Apolog & to one that fereeth him . Ergo not to the Sees and Successours .

This would folow , Confut. 334. if God vsed to geue but one kinde of Grace , such as maketh the receauer good . But now there is a Grace of faith , hope and charitie , and it is not an euil minde , that hath it . There is the grace of preaching , working of miracles , healing of diseases &c. and he may be euill that hath it . To be a Kinge , it is by the grace of God , and that grace continued vntil a certaine time in the Seed and Succession of Dauid : yet were not all they of a good mynde that were kinges of Iuda . By which it appeareth , that your Argument is false , and that the grace of Authoritie and continuance , is geauen not only vnto the good , but the euill that folow in the race and succession .

Peter when he was at Rome , Apol. neuer taught the Gospell , neuer fed the flocke . &c. sate him doune onely in his castle in S. Ihon Laterane , and poynted out with his fynger the spaces of Purgatorie , gaue orders to say priuate Masses , &c. consec●ated wyth hys holie breath oyle , wax , wolle , belles &c. mainteyned warres , set Princes togeather at variance &c. Ergo Peter did all thinges like vnto the Pope .

Of whose deuising is this Argument ? Confut. 335. Vndoubtedly no Catholike hath the 〈◊〉 to make it . Do the Protestants then speak●●●● al this of S. Peter , in sad ernest : ' ● thinke●● not so euill of them , although they can be●●● sometimes desperat . How then ? Doe they speake it but in sport , and dalie only with theyr Aduersaries ? The cause is to great to vse in so large wise , such mockery . Set him vpon the Stage with a furd cap and a motly cote , he wil plaie the vice without a vizarde , and make gaie sporte to the cumpanie .

Men say , Apolog. that one Cobilon a Lacedemonian , when he was sent Embassador to treate of a league , & found by chaunce , them of the Courte playing at dice , he retourned straytewayes home againe , leauing his message vndone . For he sayd , it should be a greate reproche to his Common wealth , to make a league with dycers : Ergo it should be a greate blot to our name , to returne to the Pope .

Cabilon might be parchaunce a wiseman in his own generation : but in these daies , Confutation . 337. he should not be much better , than an impatient or Solemne Fole . For to play at 〈◊〉 it is not absolutely and in all tymes , ●laces and persons , euil . And to let that ●vndone vpon priuate conceipt and iudge●ent , which is put vpon any man , by common consent and authoritie , it is not in most cases alowable . But such now is the perfection of the new Gospellers , they wil not be at any league with dycers or euill lyuers , and in theyr congregations and fraternities ther is ( I trow ) no blot of infamy to be feared . With what countenance then loke they , when they come into the Courtes of Princes or noblemen ? Do they fin dno dycing ●here , and no euil lyuing ? I haue so good opinion of these mens holines , that if the Pope with al his Cardinalles would take themselues to Wyues ( so to cal harlotes ) and in other things doe accordingly to the forme of the new Gospel , he should not only haue a league made with him , but also be mainteined in his supremacy which he hath in Christendome . And the Cobi●on that should be sent Embassadour for the purpose wold neuer returne again , ●●●uinge his message vndon , though 〈◊〉 plaied at dice neuer so much .

The Popes would needes make 〈◊〉 the realme tri●utary to them : Apolog. Ergo 〈◊〉 most iustly haue forsaken them .

It is not for Diuines to alleage an● such temporal cause , Confut. ●49 . of mony mater , 〈◊〉 their defence in departing from the churc●● For seeing that the Popes Authority ●●meth from God , what discharge of my 〈◊〉 is that to me , if he do more , than 〈◊〉 shuld by right and Conscience ? Do no● temporal princes somtimes oppresse thei● Subiectes , and yet continew in their place and authority aboue their subiects● Your Argument therefore and fact is naught . And if the argument were true , yet haue you no occasion to depart from the See of Rome : vnto which in Quene Maries time you were reconciled , considering that no tribute was required of you , no not so much as the restitution of the Abbey landes .

The Second Chapter , conteining certaine Absurdities of the English Apologie .

They be not mad at this day , Apolog. so many free cities , so many Kings , so many Princes which haue fallen away from the seate of Rome , and haue rather ioyned themselues to the Gospell of Christ .

HOW thinke you then , Confut. .16 . by common reason ? May any Protestant say , that AL free Cities , AL Kinges , AL Princes , and AL Christen men and women , from the highest to the lowest , were mad in these last ix . hundred yeares ( in which yow disdaine , and yet confesse , the Pope to haue ben obeied of all Christendome ) and him selfe in so saying be nothing madde ? Or can you reproue your Aduersaries , if they be so vnmannerly and hasty in their termes , as to call yours so many free Cities &c. madde , where your selues iudge that all your Forefathers , for hundred of yeares together , haue bene madde , when they all folowe ▪ with one consent Papistrie .

If it were a synne in the Heluetian● to deliuer their own countrie from fore● gouernment , Apolog. specially when they were 〈◊〉 proudly and tyranniously oppressed : yet to burthen vs with other mens faultes , or them with the faultes of theire forefathers , it is against all right and reason .

Why then do you obiect against the Catholiques the euill liues and deedes of Popes , Confut. 177. Cardinalles , Monkes , Friers , Priestes , which may be founde in anie sorte or condition of men , after some continuance of tyme and age ? And why tel you , abiding in Englande , tales vppon Italy , Spayne , or other countries , of Aloisios , Casios , Diasios , and others , to burthen thereby the knowen and auncient Church ?

In tymes past , Apolog. where the first Christians our forefathers in making their prayers to God , did tourne them selues towardes the Easte , there were that sayed they worshipped the Sunne , and reckened it as God .

And you , Confut. .191 . to proue your selues the sweete Sonnes , and exacte folowers of Antiquitie , haue altered the olde maner and custom of the Catholike Church by charginge your Ministers , to praye towardes the sowth , and that in the chiefest tyme and place of all your deuotion and Religion . If you knew whether to turne your selues , after the putting awaye of the olde faith and ceremonies thereof , why chose you the south rather than the East ? And why remembred ye not the first Christians vsage ? Except ( notwithstanding the remembrance of it ) you regarded not what they had don and practised . How absurdly then cal you them the first Christians and your forefathers , whom ye disdain , or be ashamed to folow in the maner of their praying ?

That old Father Augustine denyeth it to be leefull for a monke to spende his tyme slouthfully , Apolog. and vnder pretensed holinesse to liue all vpon others . And who so thus liueth , an olde father Apollonius likeneth him to a theefe .

See the pity which these men take of the old Fathers , Confut. 239. because their sayinges are not regarded : and see the pityful absurdity in which themselues are taken , whiles they would seeme to alowe the old Fathers . S. Augustine liketh not the idlenes of Monkes : but ydlenes put away , did he not alow the order of them ? His booke is De opere Monachorum , of the labour of Monkes , prouing that none of them must so thinke hym selfe addicted to the seruice of God , in praying , reading , or in spirituall exercises , that he should not sette his handes to corporal labour . And he maketh it not a case of necessitie , that euerie Monke must labour : but he impugneth theyr sayinges , which made a necessitie of it , not to labour wyth the bodie for theyr lyuing , but to serue God and man by the labour of mynd only , as in praying , preaching , and such like .

Nowe therefore , if S. Augustine would haue had the very Order it selfe and profession of Monkes destroyed , he should haue made short and saied , not that such monks as wold hold the opinion , that they should not labour bodily , ought to be sette therevnto : but simplie and plainly he would haue concluded , that all Munkerie should be taken away .

And then , how could he make a whole Booke , De opere Monachorum of the labour of Monkes , except he would find some what where nothing is , and build a house without labourers ?

But you , whom the idlenes of Monkes offendeth , and the neglecting of the old Fathers orders : shew to vs , I pray you , your refourmed Monasteries . Let Heretikes shew their monasteries . And if your factes haue declared before , and yet hytherto your rayling tongues can testifie , that ye hate the verie Order and Rule of Monkes , nor would abide a laboriouse and a vertuous Monke in your companie , how vnsensiblie doe you confesse the olde Fathers to haue spoken againste idle Monkes , ( whereby they signifie no abhomination to be in the Order it selfe ) your selues allwayes so mockingly and spitefully handeling , not distinctly idle Monkes , but ( without all addition ) Monkes ? As maye appeare by Iohn Foxes no litle booke of Actes and Monuments ( to name one for all ) and by your great muse in the next sentence folowing these words of which I speake , where , you wote not whether to name them droues , or heardes of Monks , as though no other title might be geuen vnto them , besides that which is proper for brute beastes .

Concerning the old Father Apollonius , if idle Monkes be theeues , what call you them which doe robb and spoile , not only the idle , but the laborious and holy Monkes ? And robbe them , not of their house , land , and goodes only , but of their fame and estimation : and robbe againe , not only the Monkes , but the iust and true owners of such goodes as were bestowed vpon Monasteries .

But put the case , al Monks had bene theeues . He that robbeth a theefe , is he not him selfe a theefe ? And if by stelth a true mans landes be taken from him , should it not returne in conscience vnto him againe , if truth and Iustice were sought for , and not gaine or priuate lust ? How well therefore your Procedinges agree with truth and honestie , Apolog. lette it be iudged by the spoyle of Monkes and Monasteries .

The old Councell at Carthage commaunded nothing to be readde in Christ hys Congregation , Conf. 243 but the Canonicall Scriptures .

The Homilies which you apoint to be read in your Congregation , be they , thinke you , Canonical Scriptures ? Truely for so much as they are not , you muste eyther leaue them vnreaden in the Congregation , or confesse , that ye haue mystaken thys oulde Councell at Carthage . And in the meane while ye haue done very fondelye to complaine of transgressinge that commaundement , which your selues doe not keepe .

As for theyr religion if it be of so long● continuance as they would haue men wen● it is , Apolog. why doe they neuer proue it so by the examples of the Primitiue Church , and by the Fathers and Councelles of olde tymes ?

This is not resonably required of you . Conf. 231. For where as you without blushing , dare confesse , that your Gospell began to spring about fifty yeares sence , and whereas vnto vs , you graunt nyne hundred yeares , in whiche our religion hath continued : if nothing more could be alleged for vs , yet against you , this alone were a sufficient argument : And no man should be so hastie vpon vs , as out of hand to require of vs testimonies out of the Primitiue Churche , to whome we make it euident by the practise of nine hundred yeares , and that by confession of our aduersaries , that we be no vpstartes nor starters .

But nowe , whereas the late printed bookes of Catholickes ( vnto whiche you make no greate speede to answer ) doe ●hew the Primitiue Churche and auncient Fathers to make for our Religion , and you , on the contrary side , haue neuer proued yet your new Ghospel by any olde Example , Father or Councell : ye are in one sentence to be twise noted of absurditie , either requiring of vs proufes for our Antiquitie , your selues so conuicted in your owne consciences , to be of fewer yeres than the Papistes are by eight hundred and odde : either thinking it meete and necessarie that whosoeuer saieth his religion to be moste Apostolike and auncient , should proue it immediatly , your selues not remembring to declare s● much in your owne cause al this while .

We in Gods cause desire to stande to Gods only iudgement . Apolog.

By the cause of God you vnderstand , Confut. 272. I thinke , the due worshipping of God , in true Religion . But what meane you , by God his only iudgement ? Would● refer the whole mater to him only , th● his wil should come vnto you , neither 〈◊〉 the meanes of Angelles , nor men , 〈◊〉 anie other whatsoeuer creature ?

And when would ye looke to 〈◊〉 so muche performed vnto you ? In 〈◊〉 world , or in the life to come ? If in 〈◊〉 world : remember what was sayd to 〈…〉 desiring to see God his face : Exo. 33. No 〈◊〉 shal liue , and see me . And consider , 〈◊〉 the brightnes and incomprehensiblen● of God is such , as the wekenes of mans soul compassed yet with infirmitie , flesh and 〈…〉 can not without somewhat put betwene , apprehend or behold immediatly ▪

If in the world to come : so might 〈◊〉 saue in dede your selues from burning or fleyng , and ye should haue al the theues and whores in the world , most willing to ratifie that conclusion , of which ther is none to be thought so faithful or fearfulin the sight of God , but he would stand to his only iudgement that is to come , vpon the ●ope that by such a glorious protestation 〈◊〉 might escape the present Iudgement of 〈◊〉 ? A protestation ●hat wil saue theues , heretikes , and al malefactours if it may be admitted And therfore meaning by your standing 〈◊〉 Gods only iudgement , such an hering 〈◊〉 perceiuing of Gods wil , as is wrought by 〈◊〉 own essence immediatly without any 〈◊〉 of angel , man , or any other craeture , 〈◊〉 is for this present life impossible to be ●bteined , and argueth a blind and folish mind 〈◊〉 be in the wisher : and referring it to the world to come , it is spoken so vnreasonably , ●hat it may quikly be taken vp , to serue al wicked and desperate psons , and to saue them 〈◊〉 shame and punishment in this world : which how absurd it wold be in the common wealth ( if such an appellation or protestatiō●●er alowed ) euery simple soul may perceiue . ●et when a the●e not thinking perchance his 〈◊〉 to be therin vnreasonable , shal protest , for 〈◊〉 shift to say somwhat , or only to saue somwhat ( as his goods , or an opinion of innocency 〈◊〉 the vnwise and ignorant ) Y● he wil stand 〈◊〉 Gods only iudgement , he vttereth a simple 〈◊〉 , or a tolerable policie : mary when a preacher or prelate shal solemly 〈◊〉 and take a glorie in his bolde words , 〈◊〉 make his folowers conceiue a 〈◊〉 weight to be in them : that forsooth Gods cause he wil stand only to 〈◊〉 iudgement , meaning that vntil 〈◊〉 day come , he wil forbid al iudgement men vpon his doctrin , he falleth into a 〈◊〉 absurditie , partly because he 〈◊〉 the trial of that which presently must determined , vnto a time which is so 〈◊〉 of from vs : and partely because , he 〈◊〉 also of so idle and vaine a prot●●station .

But now , if ye meane not , to 〈…〉 your standing to God his 〈◊〉 iudgement , A vaine bragg of the Prostants , if thei take them selues only . to stande to Gods only iudgement . so precisely and absolutely but that his Iudgement , whiche 〈◊〉 call HIS ONLY , must and 〈◊〉 comme to yow by some meanes ( eithe● of Angels , or of men , or of other thinges then doe I note vnto you , first your 〈◊〉 and bragging sound of wordes , as though● you did heare almightie God his sentenc● whiche he geaueth vpon maters of faith and Religion , after a more familiar and truer sorte , then the Catholikes doe ( for they also stand to Gods onlie iudgemente ) . Vppon whiche pointe yet being examined , ye can not but confesse , that you heare him not immediatly , but by meanes of other thinges whiche it pleaseth his maiestie to vse , so that other poore men may heare him , and stand to his only Iudgement , as well as you .

Therefore , I doe aske nowe further , by what meanes God only speaketh vnto you ? God speaketh not to the heretikes by the ministery of Angels . ( For I truste without his vttering of his minde ye are not so well acquainted , or so excellent of vnderstanding as to knowe it ) doth he vtter his Iudgementes to you , by the ministerie of Angelles ? But howe shall we beleue it , excepte ye proue it ? And because ye haue not yet craked of it , surely I can not yet thinke it .

Wel , Nor by meanes of men . can you declare that he hath shewed his wil vnto you , by the meanes and mouthes of men ? If ye dare saie so , 〈◊〉 the persons , that they may be considere●● And further instruct vs , how ye did per●ceaue those worshipful felowes to speak vnto you , God his only iudgementes and not theyr owne fantasies ?

But you haue an other way perchaūc● to come to the understanding of Gods plea●sure . Not by means of dreames . What is that ? Consisteth it in dreames , imaginations , mouings of your sprite within you , and other such prety means ? Nay surelie , ye be not so dreamish , as to crake of these thinges , which are readie to depart as lightly as they came , and returne backe againe as quickely as they went away .

Or doth it consist in true visions and reuelations ? Not by meanes of reuelations . That is much . Yet they also shuld be referred to the iudgement of the Rulers in Christs Church , before ful credite might he geauen vnto them , because there may be iust feare of illusions .

The case therfore being so harde with you ( as we take it ) name that meane , which reioyseth your harte so much , by which , aboue the rate of other poore soules , you vnderstand the Iudgement of God , and stand to it , only .

The Scripture forsooth you wil runne vnto , and there loe God him self speaketh vnto you . But how ? Immediatlie by him selfe , or by meanes of inferiour things ? If immediatly : why goe ye then to the Scripture , Ergo by the meanes of the Characters and letters of the scripture . and then the crake is very absurde . which is needlesse in that kind of immediate talke ? But if he speake to you , and you heare him ▪ by meanes of these visible characters and letters of Scripture , of which visible letters , wordes and sentences be made , and in which words intelligible senses are concluded , and if : his be all , that so stoutly ye 〈◊〉 of ▪ that ye stand vnto Gods only iudgement , it hath a shew of a great mater , and in deede it is of no valew , and it maketh the reader beleue , that you are wiser then other in your procedings : yet whosoeuer wil consider them earnestlie , shal perceaue that your crakes are most vnreasonable .

For in the meanes , which Almight● God vseth in vttering his blessed wil● vnto our grosse vnderstandings and sensible natures , there be diuers degrees ▪ and not all of like dignitie or worthines . As when he declared his minde to the Fathers in the old lawe , by sending of Angels in forme of men , and when he sent afterwardes his only begotten Sonn● in the truth of our nature , To vnderstand the wil of God bimeanes of writing is one of the basest . And when this blessed Sonne of his declared what he was by sundry miracles , and further , chose certaine simple men and vnlerned to send them into the world to conquer al the pride and knouledge of the world , and to be short , when these Apostles of Christ , sent vnto diuers places the will of God conteined in their epistles or Gospell : In all these degrees , the lowest and basest meane to deriue by it vnto vs the will of God , is by Scripture and letters .

You therfore which by your standing to Gods only iudgement , doe meane his iudgement vttered by meanes , and not immediatly by himselfe , you also which doe signifie thereby , that you folow a better and more excellent way , than other do : you ( I saie ) being proued to take the wil of God vttered in scripture and writing , for that most excellent waie ( which by all reason , is a more vnperfite and base meane , than the appearing of Angels , preaching of men , or working of miracles ) what do you els , but crake of that as the chiefest which hath his better , and refer your self to that as principal , whiche requireth other thinges to goe before it . If you wil heare more certainly and principally that which God commaundeth , ye must go not to the scriptures immediatly : but to them that shall tell you what the Scripture is , and reade it after a Catholike tune , vnto you .

The Pope is appeached by vs of hainous and foule enormities , Apol. and hath not yet put in his answere .

In what court ? Confut. 218. before what iudges ? What yere of our Lord ? for what foul enormity ? Your selues may be wel enough Phariseis . But wher are your scribes , your sumners , your apparitors , for this mater ? Is not th●s an exceding absurd folie , to appeach ( which importeth an order and forme of law by you obserued ) him with whom you haue nothing to doe ? And to complaine that he putteth not in his answer , whom you can not appeach ? And which if he would , knoweth not where anie consistorie of yours is to answer you in it ? Your selues would not appere , being summoned to the late general Councel , where out of al Christendome there were your betters , both for spiritual and temporal gouerment , and therefore ye would not because they haue ( as you must now thinke ) nothing to do with you : and now your worshipful wisedomes haue appeached the Pope , as though you had iurisdiction ouer him .

Besides this , if the Popes enormities of which you speake concerne the priuate li●e and maners of the Pope , may an English magistrate , whatsoeuer he be , require by law and conscience that cause to be brought before him ? On the other side if ye haue appeached , not Pius Quintus now Pope ( a most nolie and innocent Father ) nor anie of his late predecessours , in this respecte as they were priuate men , but as heades of the church , then haue ye called into iudgement al Christians which obey them , as accessories to their enormities . And so besides the Pope , Cardinals , Archbishops , Bishops , Priests and others of the clergy , either ye haue ▪ or by as good law you may appeach the King of Spaine , Fraunce , Scotland &c. with al the princes , Dukes , and States of Christendome . and yet not accuse them for feare but be shrew them ( for your office sake ) that they do not put in theyr answer . Such iudges as you be ▪ such a king was capitaine Kete , or if that similitude be not fit , you be like to the madde frontike prince , of whom it is readen , that he tooke care and ioye ouer al the shippes of strangers which passed in great numbre doune by his palace , hauing in deede ( poore kinge ) verie fewe good vesselles of his owne to crake of .

Trulie , whether the Pope will put in his answer , or whether he hath receiued your Iudgement , I wil not striue vpon it , but , for desire to see the ende of your processe against him , ye should haue don exceading wel ( me thinketh ) to send your Officers , some to Rome , there to watche when the Pope with al his Cardinalles sitteth in the Consistori● : other some to the Emperour , wheresoeuer he be in Campe or in Courte , and when eche of them is occupied about maters of the Churche and the Empire , sodaynlie let your Officers come and arrest ( I can not tel yet in whose name , excepte it be of the Apologie of the Church of Englande , but it is no mater for the name ) let your Officers doe as you commaunde them , and l●tte them firste arreste the Pope an● his Cardinalles , as principall , with al the Bishoppes about him : And then afterwardes the Emperour as accessorie , with all his Dukes and nobles , and bring them closely to London before hygh commissioners , and vntil they wil be ruled , and put in theyr answer , set them faste , here and there , through all the gates and prisons in London . For either you haue no law , or possibilitie , to appeach the Pope , or els surely ye may by these meanes constraine him to bring in his aunswer . The one is as reasonable as the other .

Although the modestie and the myldenes of the Emperour Ferdinande , Apolog. be so greate , that he can beare this , because peraduenture he vnderstandeth not the Popes packing , yet ought not the Pope of his holynes to offer him that wrong , nor to claime as his own an other mans ryght .

A lykelie mater , Confut. .313 . that the Emperour should not vnderstand the packinges , if anie be made , of the Pope , hauing a wise Councell assisting him , and the worlde round about sownding of heretiks bokes and practises , him selfe also hauing ( as ye will not I thinke denie ) as muche iudgement and discretion as your ministers , of whom yet euerie one maketh himselfe to know much of the Popes packing , and goeth with his fardell about him , and ( like a spiritual pedler ) setteth foorth his smal wares in open pulpittes , and emong all other pointes , vttereth those of the Popes behauiour , as most gay geare for the brothers and sisters .

Note besides this , howe artificiallie they praise the Emperour for his modesty and mildnes : because ( say they ) peraduenture he vnderstandeth not the Popes packing . Thinke ye then , that if without peraduenture he vnderstande it not , that the hearing thereof doth proue a mildnes to be in him ? So may ye praise a deafe man for his meekenesse , when that not hearing the euil wordes that are spoken against him , he is neuer moued or troubled with them .

If so be they whom God hath placed in greatest dignitie , Apolog. did see and perceaue these mens practises , how Christes commaundementes be despised by them &c. no doubt they would neuer so qui●●lie suffer them selues , neither to be disdayned after such a proude sorte , nor so dispitefullie to be scorned and a●used by them .

No doubt , Confut. . 32● . but if you for your no litle wit or learning , were worthie to be in any great dignitie : you should quicklie perceyue , that the Princes and Rulers of the world haue and do vnderstande as much of the state of Religion , as any of the Brotherhood . either because they are wise of them selues , and are set in an high place , from which they may better see what is done in the worlde , than other of base degree : either because Kings and Princes haue commonly about them , either wise Councelers to instruct them of all things , Or Courtly Discoursers which will be ignorant of nothing , Or dissolute lyuers , which are ready to speake against the Auncient faith for loue of the late Gospels libertie and noueltie .

Ireneus often tymes appealed to the oldest Churches , Apolog. which had bene neerest Christes tyme , and which it was hard to beleue had erred : but why at this day is not y● common respect & consideration had ?

See how properly you wil haue appeale made to the oldest Churches , Confut. ●23 . which abandon the Church of Rome , which was in S. Ireneus time , so truly the chief , that vnto it ( as he saith ) al Churches must resort because of the greater principality , Lib. 3. c. 3. and which at this day is without all question the oldest : and from which you haue so strayed , vnto seeking of the ouldest Churches , that falling vpon a young congregation of three score yeare olde at the most , ye passe not very much vpon anye church new or olde , but onely the pure and plaine scripture .

For somuch as we were ascertened of Godes wil , Apolog. and compted it a wickednes , to be carefull and ouercommed about the iudgments of mortall men , we could no longer stand taking aduise with flesh and blood .

Haue ye receued your Gospel by reuelation , Confu● . .317 . as S. Paul saith of himself that he did ? Are you the Apostles of Christ neyther throughe man , neither from man ? If ye will be ashamed of such arrogancie , then haue you to confesse , that ye haue learned the Ghospel of ●od , at the mouth of men . If ye wil stil glory in it , and neuer blush , then walke as ye are , and shew vs your Reuelation : or tell what contrary Aduertisement you haue receiued , why ye should not throughly follow their iudgementes , of whom ye receiued the Ghospel at the beginning ?

Iohn Chrysostome , Apolog. although the Emperoure Constantius commaunded him by ●o wer sundrie letters to come to the Arrians co●ncel : yet kept he him selfe at home ●●ill .

How is the Prince then Supreame head ? Confut. 3●● . Or how doe you bring S. Chrysostomes example for defence of your fact ? For if the Kynge be chiefe Gouernour in all causes spirituall and temporall , surely he was no good and obedient subiecte , whiche would not come at fowre times sending for . On the other side , if ye dare reproue S. Chrysostome , for his not yelding to the supreme powres commaundement , what meant you to alleage S. Chrysostome in defence of your doings , allowing not the fact of S. Chrysostom ?

The third Chapiter , conteining the lies that are made in telling of Stories with Folies in crediting of vaine tales .

Were al things then pure and holy in Rome , Apolog. when Iohane , a woman rather of perfit age than of perfit lyfe , was Pope there , and bare her selfe as the head of the Church ? And , after that for two whole yeres in that holy See , thee had played the naughtie packe , at la●t going in Procession aboute the Citie , in the syght of all the Cardinalles and Bishops , fell in trauaile , openly in the stretes ?

THere was neuer any such woman Pope in Rome . Confut. .154 . Anastasius , an historiographer of that time , and master of the Popes Librarie , whiche was himselfe present at the creations of Sergius 3. Leo 4. Benedictus 3. and other Popes after them , maketh no mention of any such . And yet the makers of this woman Pope ▪ do place her ▪ betwene Leo 4. and Benedoctus 3. Other historiographers also , both old and late , of the beste sorte make no accompte of her .

Then he that telleth the tale of thi● Pope Iohane , telleth it with such probab●litie , that he must be of smal wit and discretion , which should geaue anie credite vnto it .

For he speaketh firste by heare saie onelie .

Then he telleth , that she was an Englishe woman borne , at Magunce : and Magunce is high Doutchelande .

Further he saith , that she was brought to Athenes by a louer of hers . And therefore by likelyhood she was more than a Childe .

Nowe , what should she doe at Athenes but lerne a Gods name . And Athenes , at that time , was not for learnyng , as being altogether barbarous .

And yet she not onlie learned , but profited also in diuerse sciencies , and so profited , that none was found to be compared with her . And yet it is 〈◊〉 to saie , whether women in mens 〈◊〉 , and kepte purposelie for the 〈◊〉 of theyr Louers , should haue the 〈◊〉 , the will , the wit , the leisure , the grace to passe all other of the Vni●rsitie . But let the tale goe forwardes .

How came she to Rome , by what fa●ur , by what hope , by what louers cost● 〈◊〉 fancie ? Well , this is not told but as ●hough , that there were no more in the 〈◊〉 , but that as sone as anie fine and excellent Scholare came to Rome , he should straitewaies be apointed out to be the next Pope : so the See being vacant , this for saied Iohane was ( no man knoweth how ) inthronizated : and yet it is not only bysides the practise of the Churche of Rome , but also against common sense and reason , that anie should be chosen vnto that Office , whom they should not knowe by manie yeares experience , and by commendation of worthie personnes : And also perceiue by the face it self , to be a man lykelie to gouerne the Church discretly .

But now saith the tale further , be●ing in the Popedome , she is begote● with child of her seruant . For ye 〈◊〉 understand , that her old louer was 〈◊〉 dead , or that either she was weary him , or he of her , and that she kept h● self an honest woman , vntil the secon● yeare of her Popedome , at which tim● her seruant begot her with child .

It is very credible she was past child bearing , which had a louer before she went to Athenes , and liued there 〈◊〉 long ( not without louers , I trow ) til she was the best scholar in the Vniuersitie ▪ And ●aried then afterwardes in Rome til she was thought worthy to be Pope But the grace of the tale were lost , an● all the short of the heretikes were marred , except she had a child .

And 〈◊〉 , say they , not knowing the tyme of her deliuerance , as she went from S. Peters to Lateran , she brought furth , and dyed . How incred●ble ▪ that a woman , and so honest a woman as from ●er youth had ben an harlot , and so lerned that none was found to be compared with her , should not knowe the time of ●er delyuerance , or not make so nigh a 〈◊〉 at it , that she would neuer ven●er abroade , when ieobardie might arise of betraying her selfe ? How vnlikelie also , that before the mater was opened in procession , she could kepe it so close , that none of the curiouse Italian eies , could perceiue it , either that shee looked not like a man , or did not so be haue her selfe as men doe , or were nothing chainged , in bodie or countenance , from that pleight she was in eight or nine moneths before ?

But I wil leaue to make further coniectures : this is certaine , the best Historiographers make no mention of any Iohane , Ioannes Polonu● a monke and he whom the heretikes at this time folowe , and which is theyr first author in this tale , is such a one , as is altogeather vnworthie of credite .

To whose eares hath it not come , Apolog. that N. Diasius a Spaniard , being purposely sente from Rome into Germanie , 〈◊〉 shamefully a●d diuellishly murther 〈◊〉 owne brother Thon Diasius , a moste innocent and a most godly man , onely because he had embraced the Ghospell 〈◊〉 Iesu Christe , and would not returne againe to Rome .

How proue you , Confutation . 1●7 . that he was purposely sent from Rome ? As though the Pope or anie of the Cardinalles had so greate care , what the poore correctour Iohn Diasius the Spaniard did , in his masters shoppe in Germanie .

How proue ye also , that Diasius his brother did murther him ? For he did not onely not murther him , but not so much as know of it , before it was done . The whole matter was brought before Iudges , Diasius was deliuered , and he that in deede committed the murther , was condemned .

Howe vniustlie then doe you , to condemne him for a murtherer , whom hys lawfull Iudges haue absolued ? Yow will , I trust , repent , or els you will answere for it , when it shal be to late to repent .

Who hurled vnder his table , Apolog. Frauncis Dandalus the Duke of Uenice , King of Creta and Cypres , fast bounde wyth chaynes , to feede of bones amonge the dogges ?

No bodye . Confut. 186. But tell vs now againe , who hath made fyue lyes in so fewe lines ?

First Dandalus was not hurled vnder the table , Sabellic . Decad. 2. lib. 1. but , he came of his owne accorde . And to moue the Pope vnto pitie , creeped vppon all fower to his table , and there layed hym selfe doune .

Secondlie , he was not then Duke of Venice . ( For their Dukes vse not to be Ambassadours , nor to goe out of the Citie ) nor Kyng of Creta , nor Cypres . For the Venetians haue no Kynges in their State . )

Thirdlie , he was not fast bounde in chaines , sauing that one chaine which he put about his owne necke , and which he might haue taken of , and gone awaie at his pleasure .

Fourthly , he was not hurled vnder the table to feede of bones . For neither the Pope doth make any fare so harde , neither setteth he any man to diner vnder his table .

Last of all , that he should be hurled doune to feede among dogges , I thinke that either the Pope hath none at all , eyther that he hath other places for than , or that he maketh not man and beastes commensales together .

Tel me then now , who hath made so vile , so spitefull , so doggish and so many lyes within iij. or fower lines togeather ?

And al this shal ye find in the very History of Sabellicus , Decad. 2. lib. 1. col. 1220. And the Quotation is true , although M Iewell in his Sermon of late , did tel it for a worthy point to be noted , that Sabellicus neuer wrate Decades , but Enneades . Which if it had bene true , the mistaking yet of the Title of a booke was not much to be spoken of , as long as it is found to be true , that which is reported , as out of such a booke . But thankes be to God , there is no harme done to D. H●rding , because Sabellicus hath in deede written Decades of the Story of the Venetians , although there be extant also Enneades of other Stories which he intitleth Rapsodia . And M. Iewel in pressing his Aduersary so earnestly with such a trifle , and yet fayling therein also of his purpose , doth proue himselfe to be driuen very sore vnto his shiftes , and that he is much to be pytied , that he hath not like good successe vnto his greate courage .

Who set the Emperiall Croune vppon the Emperour Henrie the Sixths heade , Apolog. not with hys hande , but with his foote ? And with the same foote agayne , caste the same Crowne of , saying withall , he had power to make Emperours , and to vnmake them againe at hys pleasure ?

You by likelyhood can tel which aske the question ? For vnto vs it is not onlie a fable , but a foolish one also , and absurde and malicious .

Who put in armes Henrie the Sonn● against the Emperour his Father , Apolo . Henry the fourthe : And wrought so , that the Father was taken prisoner of hys Sonne , and being shorne and shamefully handeled , was thrust into a Monasterie , where with hunger and sorowe , he pyned away to death ?

The Pope did none of all these thinges . Conf. 187 But the Sonne himselfe , after a greate foile and ouerthrowe , whiche his Father had taken at the Saxons handes , seing him to be so strooken with feare , that he durst not appeare abrode , he toke vpon him selfe the administration of the Empire , and fought afterwades against his owne Father , which would haue had him to surrender the Empire . And taking his Father prisoner , he committed hym to straight custodie , without anie motion of the Pope therevnto , as with whome also he was at Variance . Then , as touching the Shearing or thrusting him into A Mo●asterie , or famishing of Henrie the fourth , lette hym that made these shamefull lyes , shewe his Authour , and defende hym selfe .

Who , Apolog. so ilfauouredlie and monstrouslie put the Emperour Frederikes necke vnder hys feete , and as thoughe that were not suffyciente , added further thys Texte out of the Psalmes : Thou shalt goe vppon the Adder and Cockatrice , and shalt tread the Lyon and Dragon vnder thy feete ?

Who this should be , Conf. 188 your selues can not tell , whiche are the onelie mainteiners of the tale . For sometymes ye laie it to Innocentius the thyrde : sometymes to Innocentius the eyght : sometymes to Alexander the thyrde . And the fact being so strainge and singular , that it coulde not be but notorious , yet ye haue so litle certeintie thereof , that ye knowe not who should haue done it . But the trueth is , no graue writer maketh any mention of such behauiour of the Pope .

The Emperour Theodosius , 〈◊〉 . as Socra●es sayth , did not only sit emongs the Bishopes , but also ordered the whole argui●g of the cause .

Here you speake of sitting , 〈…〉 as though Th●od●sius had then ben at some General Councel . You speake also of ordering the whole arguing of the cause , as though him selfe had ben a moderatour of some disputation .

The plaine storie is , Hist. 〈◊〉 9 ca. 19 Theodosius con●erred familiarly in his owne palace , with the Bishope of Constantinople , howe his people might be brought to an vnitie in faith . And when the heretikes refused one good way ( which was , to be tried by the testimonies of Auncient Fathers ) he went an other waie to worke with than : whiche was , that eche of them should bring furthe in writing , that which he had to say for his faith . Which being don , the Emperour read ouer theyr writings , and reiected the Arrians , Macedonians and Eunomians heresies , and embraced and commended the iudgement of the Nicene Councel , touching the consubstantiality of God the Sonne with his Father . So that this historie serueth nothing to the mater of a General Councel , nor proueth , that an Emperour may sit there , as Iudge emong the Bishops , nor that Theodosius did vpon his owne heade , and as Supreme Gouernour , that which Socrates here reporteth of him , but that he folowed the Councel of his Bishope Nectarius , and the former decrees of the Nicene Councel .

Iustinian put doun from theyr Papal Throne two Popes , Apolog. Syluerius and Vigilius , notwithstanding thei were Peters successours , and Christes Uicars .

No , Conf. 3. it was not Iustinian , but his Ladie Theodora , which was a great mainteiner of heretikes , and when women , theyr husbandes being alyue , be so feruent in sprite , that they must haue such Popes as please them selues , no wounder if Peters Successours be shamefullie handeled .

Charles the greate being Emperour held a prouincial Councel in Germanie , Apolog. for putting awaye Images , contrary to the second Councel at Nice .

This is so false , Confut. 327 that the contrarie is most true . For whereas the heretikes , named Imagebreakers , Abbas Vrsper . Anselm . Ryd . Pencerus . Carion . Pantal●o had holden a Councel at Constantinople , for abrogating of Images : directly against this impietie of theyrs , Pope Adrian and Charles the greate held an other Councell at Frankeford in Germanie . So muche it lacketh , that Charles the greate should be a fauourer of Imagebreakers .

The fourth Chapiter conteinyng the lies made vpon the Auncient Fathers and other Writers .

S. Augustin , Apolog. when he disputed against Petilian an heretik of the side of the Donatistes : let not these words , Aug. de vnitate Eccl. c , 30 quod he , be heard betwen vs : I say , or you say : let vs rather speake in this wise , thus sayth the Lord : there , let vs seeke the Church , there let vs boult out the cause .

THe question betwene S. Augustine and the Donatistes was this : Conf. 29. wher the Church should be ? Now , to proue that the Church was not with the Catholiks , the Donatistes were busie alwaies , in rehersing , how the Catholikes , had burned the holie bokes , and had offred incense to Idols , and had persequuted Innocentes , like as the protestantes in these daies , when the question is of the Supremacy of the Bishop of Rome , thei vse to make a long tale , how such a Pope was a Necromancer , and such a one a leachero●s man , and some other proude and ambitious .

Now although S. Augustine migh● ( and did also in sundry places ) say truely● that the obiections of the Donatiste● were false , Augu. de vnit . Eccles ca. 2. Idem lib. 2. cont epist. petil . c. 8. and though he might brin● furth against them also , greater examples of their faults : yet considering , tha● such oiections taken out of the euill life of the one side or the other , doe not perteine to the question proponed : And seeing , that altercation and strife only wa● mainteined thereby , whiles eche part● would say ▪ the other lied , and would no● ceasse to tell what they could one of th● other , being not credited yet one of th● other : S. Augustine therefore not desirous to chide , but earnest to proue th● Churche to be on his side , vseth thes● wordes : De vnit . Eccl. c. ● . Let vs not heare , This I saie , or , This thou saiest ; but , let vs heare , this saieth our Lord ▪ After which wordes , these folowe whiche the Apologi● should not haue omitted , Truly ther b● extant our Lordes bookes , the authoritie of which we both do agree with al , we both beleue , we both serue and obey : There let vs seeke the Church , there vs boult out our cause .

For the Church it self to proue it selfe by her owne wordes , is not conuenient : And to credit her at the reporte and commendation of a baser and vnworthier witnes then her self , is very dishonorable . It remaineth therefore , that her cause be examined by the Scriptures , as whiche haue so great authority , and are so generally receiued . And truly it is exceading wel prouided of God , that , in theyr seueral causes , the Church s●ould declare the scriptures , and the scriptures the church . And so , when any man beleueth the church , and striueth with me vpon a text of the scripture , I would say vnto him , let vs haue no more these words , I saie , or you say , but let vs heare rather , this saieth the Church .

On the other side , when one beleueth the scriptures ( as heretikes thinke they do ) and would reason with me about the Church , where it should be , I would answer : Let not these wordes be hear● among vs , I say , or you say , but let vs heare , This saith the Scripture . Therefore in this principall question betwene the Catholikes and the Donatists , which was , where the Church should be , the best waye was , only to appeale to Scriptures .

Againe , the Donatistes admitte● the Scriptures : but other thinges which S. Augustine alleaged out of laufull recordes , either of the Ecclesiasticall , or the Temporall Court , to encounter them withal , they did not belieue . And so , I say , and thou sayest , went to and fro betwene them , without anie conclusion or profite . To driue therefore the mater to some Issue , let vs heare no more ( saieth he ) I saie , or thou sayest , but , this sayeth our Lorde , his bookes we both belieue , we both obey . there let vs seeke the Church .

Now in other Kyndes of question , as , of fasting , receiuing the Sacraments , keping of holy dayes , and other traditions , S. Augustine wold neuer bind vs to Scripture onlie , him selfe saying of these and the like , in his Epistle ad Ianuarium . August . ● epist. 116. ad ●anuarium . What so euer the whole Church thorough the worlde dothe kepe , thereof to dispute , it is a most insolent madnes .

Likewise also , towarde such kynde of Aduersaries , as woulde be tried by testimonies of olde Fathers togeather with Scriptures , or without expresse Scripture , he would neuer charge vs to vse these wordes onelie , This saieth our Lorde : but well would haue bene contented , that we should saie ▪ this saieth Cyprian , Ambrose , Basile , &c. him selfe speakinge of Auncient Fathers before and in his tyme after this fasshion : Quod credunt , Contra Iulianum , Pelagianum . lib. 1. ca. 2. credo , that whiche they beleue , I beleue , that whiche they say , I say , &c.

Therefore ye haue abused very muche your Reader , and S. Augustine bothe , making the one to thinke , the other to testifie , that , we should not fight against Heretikes , but with expresse Scripture onelie .

Fulgentius ad Thrasimundum saith , Apolog. that Christ , tho●gh he be absent from vs concerning his manhode , yet is euer present with vs concerning his Godhead .

The forme of a seruant is one thing , Confut. 3● . and manhood is an other . The forme perteineth to shape and figure , which couereth our substance , and maketh it visible : the manhood perteineth to the inwarde nature , and is , only intelligible . The first is not graunted nor taught of the Catholikes , that Christ is with vs now in earth , after the forme of a seruant . The second yet they confesse and belieue , that he is with vs really in his manhood . The first is Fulgentius true sayeng , to the king Thrasimund : The second is your deprauing of Fulgentius , in face of the worlde .

Sozomenus saieth of Spiridion , Apolog. and Nazianzene saieth of his owne Father , that a good and diligent Bishoppe doth serue in the ministery neuer the worse for that he is maried , but rather the better and with more hablenes to doe good .

It will neuer ( I feare ) be better with you , Confut. 76. but alwaies worse and worse . Would ye make Gregorie Nazianzene , contrarie to the Apostle ? And S. Paule so expresselie pronouncyng , that he which hath a wyfe , is carefull for the thinges of the world , 1. Cor. 7. and is diuided , thinke you , that any Auncient Father or writer ( whose testimonie your selfe doe trust ) were likely to say , that a Bishop dothe serue the better in the ministery , for that he is maried ?

I am glad ye geue credit to Sozomenus and Nazianzene , vsing them for witnesses , that we may see whether ye wil regard their owne very wordes , and crie them mercy for abusiug them . Sozomenus saith thus , speaking of Spiridion . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 Lib. 1. c. ●● 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 . This Spiridion wa● an husband man , hauyng wyfe an● chyldren , but he was not therefore the worse to Godward .

How thinke you then , doth he praise Mariage ? Doth he saie , He serued God the better , and wyth more hablenes by reason thereof ? Doth he not rather note it , as a rare and a singular grace in him , that hauing such occasions of diuidyng and distracting his mind , he neuerthelesse was nothing abated in his diligence and attention towardes God ?

Nazianzene likewyse speaketh of S. Basiles Fathers perfect life in mariage with A ( but yet ) saying : Although he put himself in bondes of mariage , yet he liued so therein , as he was letted no whyt therefore , from the attaining of perfect vertue , and folowing of wisedome . As who should say , it commeth most times so to passe , that when students or holy men are maried , they looke but seldome on their bookes , but wait vpon the busines of the world : yet was it otherwyse with Basiles Father . For he , although he put himself in bonds of mariage , yet he was no whit letted therefore &c. In which words he commendeth his vertue , and geueth no example to vnmaried Priests , that if they wil be furthered to perfection , they should not be without a bedfelow : nomore than he which should report of an other , that he sitteth at a table ful of delicats , and yet neuer surfeiteth vpon them , that proue that it is a right waye to temperance , alwaies to be at many and fine dishes . Whereas contrariwise , in all things that are delectable vnto the senses , and hurtfull , by excesse , vnto morall vertues , the safest way is , to flee from occasions of euill , vntil by longe custome , an habite be obteined in the vertue . And then , as it is an argument of greate perfection , to liue with a woman and nothing to be hindred in deuotion by her , so , it is so rare a vertue , and needelesse ( thoughe it be in a man ) to be practised , that as it may sometimes come to passe , that one is not the worse , yet there was neuer yet any man so blind and vnsensible , which would thinke it to be a preferment toward perfection , to be at bed and at borde with a woman .

The more you haue then to answer for , which haue fathered such a sense on S. Gregory Nazianzene .

S. Hierome : Al these things , saith he , which without the testimony of the Scriptures , Apolog. are holden as deliuered from the Apostles , be throughly smitten doune , by the sword of Gods worde .

He saith not generally ( al those things , Conf. 30 omnia ) but , In ●rin●ū cap. Aggaei . Sed & alia , that is , and other thinges also . And he saith not , which are holden , afferuntur , but , which they find and f●ncie , meaning heretikes , of whom onely he speaketh in that place . And therefore he maketh not a generall rule against Traditions , but a special prouision against the deceits of heretikes .

It was ryghtly said by Pius the second a bishop of Rome , Apolog that he sawe many causes , why wiues should be taken away from Priests , but many moe and more weighty causes , why they ought to be restored to them againe .

His wordes , Conf. ●0 . as Platina reporteth , are these , that mariage hath bene taken from Priestes with great reason , And that it semeth , it were to be restored again with greater . Note ( it semeth ) not ( it ought ) and note ( greater rea●on ) and not , manie moe and more weyghtie . And if he had so ernestly spoken , as you suppose , yet dothe he not allowe the mariage of priestes , whiche he confesseth to haue bene taken away for greate cause : but so muche he seemeth to be greaued with the loosenes of them in his time , that he thought the causes why they might be permited to marie , were much greater .

After which maner , a very discreet and sadde Merchante of London might saie vnto you , that for greate good cause , Apology wold be so much ouerseen ? mary , aut integra percipiant , aut ab integris arceantur , either ( saieth he ) let them receaue the whole , De cons. dist. ● ca● Comperi . eihter let them be kept from the whole . Of receiuing therefore he speaketh , not of geuing .

Why , is it not al , in a maner , one ? and can both be receiued , except both be geuen ? No , thei cannot . But who shal constraine the Priest to geue both ? Or who shal compel the Bishopes ( whom God hath set to gouerne his church ) who shal compel them , to make a law that both be geauen ? For as they s●al see it expedient for the present state of the peple , ouer which thei haue authority , so may they , to some geue both , to some geue one : to some in forme of bread , to other in forme of wine : and some also they may kepe from receiuing in anie kind at al , like as by their discretion they shal see the diuersity of cases to require . And if ye could impugne this by any means , yet could ye not impugn it by Gelasius , and proue by him , that both kinds ought to be geuen .

Secondly I note against you , that neither the peoples receiuing in both , is proued by Gelasius to be of absolute necessity , vnder peril of committing sacrilege . For he speketh but of one certain kind of persons . How proue I that ? By his own words . For in his commuandement , that they , which were noted vnto him , should either receiue the whole , or abstain from the whole he laieth in , this cause betwen . Quoniam nescio &c. Because they be staid with a superstition , I can not tel what : ergo take superstition awaie , and the case of the Receiuer is altered . And he doth not forbid a vertuouse and right beleuing man to receiue in one kind , vpon good considerations . Shew ye now ▪ that the sacrament ought to be geauen in both kinds ▪ and that some sorte of people might not receiue vnder one alone : or confesse , that ye haue made a duble lie vpon Gelasius .

What can be sayd more plainly then that which Ambrose saith , Apolog. bread and wine remaine stil the same they were before , and yet are chaynged into an other thing .

As plaine as he speaketh , Confut. 94. you vnderstand him not : and if you do ( because nothing can be saied more plaine ) then doe ye abuse him most shamefully . The beginning of the sentence or periode , out of whiche you take certaine wordes for your purpose , Lib. 4. de Sacr. c. 4. is this in englishe . If there be so great power in the word of our Lord Iesus , that thinges which were not , should begin to be : how muche more , is it effectual and workinge , vt sint quae erant & in aliud commutentur , that thinges which were , be , and be chaunged into an other thing . Vpon the construction of which latine wordes our present question consisteth . The Apologie construeth thus ▪ vt , that ( vnderstand , say they ▪ panis & vinum , bread and wine ) Sint , quae erant , should remaine styll the same they were before : & commutentur in aliud , and should be chaunged into an other thing . Now the true interpretation is thus to be made . Vt quae erant , that the thinges whiche were : Sint , be , & in aliud commutentur , and be chaunged into an other . So that quae erant , is nominatiue case to the verbe sint , and not panis & vinum , as the Apologie faineth .

For in S. Ambrose argument there is this antithesis or opposition : from not being to being , and from being to an other being . As , if God hath made nothing somewhat , muche more of somewhat he may make another thing . Before the world began , the Heauens , waters , and Earth had no existance or being at al. God spake the word , and so of nothing he made them to haue a beginning and being : but bread had a being , when it was yet vnconsecrated , and after the wordes of consecra●●on it keepeth stil a being ( because it is not annihilated , and vtterly made nothing ) yet it keepeth not still the same being it had before , because it is no more natural bread , but is turned by the omnipotencie of Gods worde , into the bodie of Christe .

As in example of the meate whiche we eate , be it fishe or fleash , it had a being in it selfe before we did eate it ▪ an● after it is once digested it hath a being , ( for we are not fedde with nothing , and our meates are not annihilated in vs , but conuerted into our bodily substance ) yet they keepe not the same being whiche they had before . For then should theyr bodies which fed alwaies vpon veale , mutton , capons , wodcockes &c. consist not of mans fleash , but of calueflesh , shepes flesh , &c. And such men were quickely to be set to schole , or reformed in theyr opinion least by much vsing of the foresayd meates , they might proue ( in theyr own concepte ) as wise as Calues , Capons or Wodcockes .

This example wel considered , it will appeere , that S. Ambrose saieth right lie , that , quae erant , sint , the things which were , keepe a being ( as bread dothe when it is consecrated ) but not ( as the Apologie abuseth S. Ambrose ) that , Sint quae erant , they should remaine styll the same they were before . For bread is conuerted by consecration into the bodye of Christe , and so keepeth styll a being , but not the same , whiche it had before .

Cyrill saieth , Apolog. when we come to receiue these mysteries , all grosse Imaginations must quite be banished .

Grosse Imaginations in S. Cyrill , Confut. 107. doe signifie , not the Catholique beliefe of the Faithfull , whiche confesse them selues to receiue vnder the forme of bread , perfecte God , and perfecte man , One Iesus Christe : but the carnall thoughtes and opinions of Nestorius , and lyke Heretiques , whiche diuide Christe , that is but one , and imagine , that the Blessed Virgine was Mother of Christ man , not of the worde God , as though the manhoode had anie personall subsistence , separate from the Godheade . Of whiche false principle it woulde folow , that the bodie of Christ , which Christians receiue in the Sacrament , should be the bodie of a pure man . And therfor● he inueigheth against him , and saieth .

Num hominis comestionem &c ▪ what , doest thou pronounce this ou● Sacrament to be the eating of a man , and doest thou dryue irreuerently the mind of the faithful to grosse imaginations ? &c. Now the Catholikes , which beleue that they receiue , not the fleash of a bare man ( which could not but minister verie carnal and grosse thoughtes ) but the fleash of God and man , that by consideration of the presence of suche 〈◊〉 maiestie , our vnderstandings should yeld● vnto his wordes , by faith , and put awaie all carnall Imaginations concerning the mysteries : iudge you , whether we be giltie of grosse imaginations , and whether you haue rightlie vnderstanded S. Cyrill , or no.

As Chrysostome very aptly writeth , Apolog. we say , that the body of Christ is the dead ●●rcas , & we our selues must be the Egles , ●eaning therby , that we must flie high , if 〈◊〉 wil come to the bodie of Christ .

We must flie high in deede , Confutation . 109. which is , 〈◊〉 Chrysostome him selfe expoundeth it , ●o haue nothing to do with the earth , In 1. Cor. cap. 10. Ho. 24. neither to be drawen dounwarde to ●ase thinges . And againe : wype awaie ( saieth he ) al filth from thy soul , prepare thy mind to receiue these mysteries . No●e the worde , mysteries , and marke , that he dothe not meane fleeing vp by faith vnto heauen , in which place onlie ye would haue Christs body to be : but rather a fleyng by deuotion and good mind to the Aultar here beneth on earth , where the body , of whiche he speaketh , doth lie . He flieth high , which contemneth the Iudgement of his owne senses , which subdueth his reason to Faith , whiche despiseth the thinges that the worlde estemeth highlie , whiche conformeth his life to the life of Christ , which prepareth him self to the mysteries . No doubt but we must flee high , not chaunging of place but conditions : not by only conceiuing of Christ that he is our Mediatour in heaun , but also beleuing of Christ , that by his body he worketh our saluation in earth : hat by spiritual imagination , to fede on his body at his fathers hand al aboue , but with faithful and humble deuotion , to receiue his real body at the priests hand here beneth : not by light esteming of the sacrament as though ther were no real presence , but by diligent preparing of our selues towards it , as conteining the body of God our Sauiour .

Of which two kinds , ye chuse the first with refusal of the second , and would haue your reader or herer beleue , that he must not looke to haue the naturall sleash of Christ in the mysteries on the altar , nor beleue any transubstantion , nor make any adoration : for then we should haue Christ within our sight , our reach , our body , and haue our maker present among vs in earth , and this wil not stand ( say you then ) with the fleing high of which Chrysostom speaketh : But because you abuse S. Chrysostom herein , therfore I tel you of it , and bid you ●emembre , that the high fleing of whiche he speketh , is to be referred vnto the forsaking of earthly , vile , and base maners , and not to the drawing away of our mind from the beliefe , and reuerence of the mysteries .

For thus he expoundeth our fleing high : If the kinges child araied in purple and diademe were deliuered vnto thee to beare , woldest thou not cast doun on the ground al that thou holdest , and receiue him ? But now when thou receiuest not the Kings child , but the only begotten Sonne of God , Chrysost in 1. Cor. cap. 10. Hom. 24. tel me , I praye the , art not afraid ? And doest thou not cast away al loue of worldly things , and garnish thyself with him only , but doest thou loke doun on th' earth ? Art thou yet in loue of thy mony ? art thou yet geuen to the earth ? If it be so , what forgeuenes , what excuse shalt thou find ?

And of real presence he writeth thus , that we haue in earth that very body which was nayled , beaten , which was no● ouercome by death , which the Sonne seeing crucified , tourned awaye hi● beames , for which the veile of th● Temple was rent a sunder , stones an● all the earth quaked , the bodye that was made al bloody , and being thru●● in with a speare , powred forth fountaines of blood and water , healthful● to all the worlde . You therefore ar● much deceiued , and haue greatly misse-vsed S. Chrysostome , by fleeing so high , that ye see not his plaine Text and meaning .

How shall I holde him ( saieth A●gustine ) which is absent ? Apolog . How shall 〈◊〉 reach my hand vp to heauen , In Ioan. Tract. 50. to lay 〈◊〉 vpon him that sitteth there ? He aunswereth , Reach thither thy faith , and tho● hast laied holde on him .

He speaketh not in that place , Confut. . ●●0 . to th● faithfull about their receiuing of Christ ▪ but to Iewes which beleue not in Christ . And them he teacheth , not to seeke 〈◊〉 Christ as theyr fathers did ( which was to kyll him ) but ( as the faithfull doe ) ●hich is to keepe him . But howe maie ●ne keepe him , excepte he take him ? Or how maie one take him , except he come to him ? Or how maie one come to hym which is in heauen so far from him ? Mary ( sayth S. Austine ) reach furth thy faith , and thou hast hold of him . Thy fathers held him in fleash , holde thou him in hart , for Christ absent is also present .

Vpon which place I would note for my owne parte , that he sayth not , reach thither thy faith , but , mitte fidem , reach furth or put furth thy faith . For this mi●chiefe maie come to the reader of this word Thither , that taking S. Austine to speake ther , to them that alredy haue faith and beleuing his words in that place , to ꝑteine to the question of the Sacrament , he concludeth straitway , that Christs true and reall body must not be sought for in the mysteries vpon the altar , because S. Austin biddeth vs reach our faith thither , that is , to heauen . Yet the place is neither referred to perfect Christians , but only to Iewes , neither doth it specifie , reaching hither or thither , but only requireth plain● geauing of faith .

Yea ther is so great oddes betwen S. Austin as he is in his own worke , and as he is made to stand in the Apologie , that the worde thither , which the Apologie so gladly reporteth , is expressly refused of S. Austin . For to the Iewes question , asking how he might reach to heauen , and take hold of Christ , he answereth , put furth faith , and thou hast hold of him , and addeth after a fewe wordes this cause : For Christ absent is present . As if he should say , when I bid thee ( ó Iewe ) to apprehend Christ which is in heauen , I require faith of thee , and doe not bind Christ to a certain compasse and circuit , nor make it nedefull for thee , to clime vp to heauen . For Christ , as comprehended by faith , is i● earth as wel as in heauen , and thinke no● therfore , of chainging of place , but chaynging of hart , knowing that by faith Christ is in mens hartes , and is continually here to them that wil beleue in him .

As touching the multitude of vaine & superstitious Ceremonies , Apolog. we knowe that Augustine did greuously complaine of them in his owne tyme .

What saied he of them ? Confut. Howe sore did he complaine ? What one example did he bring of them , that you might gheasse , the Ceremonies which you haue abrogated , to be of like sorte with those of which he complained ? Why make ye the Reader to suppose or beleue , that S. Augustin did loue as fewe ceremonies as ye doe ? Or why teach you him not , out of S. Austin , how to discerne what is vain , what is fructful ? Let the truth be opened , and your vanitie wil sone appeare .

S. Augustine doth so greuouslie complaine , and he is so ready to diminsh the numbre of Ceremonies , that the greatest papist in the world , would not aske more fauor in the question and cause of them . First if the Scripture doth alow anie order or fashion , it is not vaine . If the whole Church hath generally receiued ani , it is not vaine . If it be but a particular Ceremony of one countries , and be not against the faith or good maners , it is not vaine . Yea if anie thing be in it which helpeth to amendement of life , it is not vaine .

By so many waies , and for so many causes , a ceremony maie wel continue , as ye shal finde in that verie epistle of S. Augustin : Epi. 119. c. 18. & 19. And had you the face so to alleage this holy Doctours complaining of ceremonies , as though he would haue as few as you ? What Sacrament haue you , about which ye doe occupie oile ? What thinke you of the fast of lent ? What of Alleluia betwixt Easter and Witsontide ? What vse haue you of any Octaues ? Cap. 7. 15. 18. Yet of these Ceremonies , he maketh mention in the foresaied Epistle , and reckoneth that they are to be vsed and regarded .

Gregory &c. if the Church , saieth he , shall depend vppon one man , Apolog. it will at once fal doune to the ground .

Ye belie him shamfully , he hath no such words at al. Conf. 203 Yet the protestant may think this impossible , that you should haue no more regarde of your honestye . Let him seeke then , if he be learned , and iudge by his owne senses , whether any such proposition is ther to be found . But is there not a like vnto it ? Ye as , so like as Rome is to Constantinople , or Gregorie S. Peters successour , to Nestorius of Constantinople an heretike . For if a man should seeke for his life , to find in that epistle , but some resemblance of that which the Apology reporteth , he findeth no more but this which I shal declare for th' vnlerned sake .

Iohn Bishope of Constantinople affected the title of Vniuersal Bishope . S. Gregorie then Pope of Rome , complaineth thereof to Mauritius the Emperour , declaring good causes and reasons , why such presumption should not be suffred . Emong other he maketh this argument . Lib. 4. epist. 3● . Surely we haue knowen manie Prelats of the Church of Constantinople , to haue fallen into the goulfe of heresie , and to haue ben not only heretiks , but archeheretikes also . Nowe for example , he nameth Nestorius and Macedonius : then bringeth he in , therevpon this conclusion . If therefore in that church ( vndoubtedly of Constantinople ) anie pul vnto himself that name ( of Vniuersal Bishope ) ergo ( which hath ben the iudgement of all good men ) the whole church ( which God forbid ) falleth from her state , when he falleth which is called Vniuersall .

An excellent argument vndoubtedly . For if the only or Vniuersall Bishope should be at Constantinople , that see hauing no priuilege of continuing stil in the right faith ( as appereth by the archeheretikes , which sate ther ) and al the world being bound to obey the Vniuersal Bishope , this one absurditie graunted , a thousand would folow , and that one Bishoppe erring , all the whole Church should go a straie . Loe this is al that may seme to geue any occasion of reporting that which the Apologie hath attributed to S. Gregorie .

And wher find we here , that if the church depend vpon one man ▪ it must at once fal doune to the ground ? Wil they yet defend theyr lying ? Or dare they yet stil abuse the old fathers ? ●s the Church , and that Church , al one in concluding ? Is depending vpon one man , and that man , al a like ? The successor of S. Peter , and Bishop in that chaire , in which neuer yet was found any archeheretike to set furth naughty doctrin , is he al one with a Bishope of Constantinople ▪ which neither succedeth any Apostle , and hath bene a defender of heresies ? let vs see now therfore whether you wil confesse your errour in mistaking S. Gregorie : Or mainteine your impudencie in misusing of him .

The bish●ps ( sayth Bernard ) who now haue the charge of Gods church , Apolog. ar not teachers , but deceauers , they are not feders , but begilers , thei are not prelats but pilates . These words spake Bernard of y● B. who nameth him self the highest Bishop of al , & of that other Bishops , likwise which then had the place of gouernement .

How then ? Confut. Did S. Bernard forsake al papistrie and abandon the Pope , because of those fa●ltes which he found ? If he did , why taried he in his monkes cote vnto his death ? If he did not , what vnwise men be you , to for sake the Church for euil maners sake ?

But consider further . Whom called he deceauers ▪ beg●●ers , pilats ? Al the whole order of Bishopes and gouernoures of the Church from the Pope dounward ? Or spake he of some certain only ? If he noted but some certain , and ●hē worthely : those other some , which were not infected might wel preserue the state of the Church in truth of maners and doctrine , that ye need not to feare an vtter destruction 〈◊〉 it , and so through wretched foly depart out of it . If he spake generally of al , then wil I confesse that ye are not so much to be blamed ; for your departing from that Church , nor for anie your applieyng of S. Bernardes Authorie to that purpose . But because I am sure this is false , therefore I charge you , and blame you .

How proue I this ? I proue it by those very bookes , in which ( as you saie ) the foresaid wordes , against the Pope and Bishopes , are . For concerning Eugenius him selfe , he saieth in the third boke , after much complaint or reproufe made of the euil maners of the Court of Rome , Haec ad te , Berna . de Cons. lib ▪ 3 non de te scribo . I writ this vnto thee , not of thee . And immediatly , he declareth by example , how Eugenius refused bagges of monie , which came out of Germany and condemned a greate riche bisshop ( by likelyhode ) notwithstanding his mony . And how he gaue of his own vnto an other poore bisshop to geue vnto the officers in the Court , least the bisshop should seeme niggish and vncourteous , if he should haue nothing rewarded them . Now Doth it greaue thee to heare this ? And I ( ꝙ S. Bernard ) doe tell it so muche the more gladly , by how much thou hearest it the more greauously . The Pope the● him selfe was none of those deceauers , begilers or pilates , whom you mention .

Furth then : were al the Cardinalles and Bishops , deceiuers &c. No , neither al they , as you may reade it proued in the fourth boke of that worke , by the examples of two great Legats . The one was Cardinal Martine , Cardinal Martin . which being sent legate into Dacia , a countrie ful of gold and siluer , returned yet so poore , that for lacke of mony and horses , he coulde scarse reach vnto Florence . The Bishope of which place gaue him an horse , without mention making of any mater to be done for it . Yet the legat and Cardinal Martin , was 〈◊〉 soner at Rome , but the bishop of Florence came also thither : And seeking the fau●● of his frinds in a certain cause of his ow● at length he commeth to Cardinal Martin . Yea ( sayth he ) Decepisti me . Nescieb●tibi imminere negotium . tolle equum tuū● ecce in stabulo est . you haue deceued me , I knew not ye had any sute in hand . Take your horse to you , loe , yonder he is in the stable . This is one , and he , I truste no deceauer or Pilate .

An other , Cardinal Gau●rid . is Gaudfridus Bishope of Cartres , which many yeres together was at his own charges Embassadour and legat from the Pope in the costs of Gascoigne . Of whom he telleth , that ther was a sturgeon brought vnto him by a certain priest , but I wil not take him ( sayd the Cardinall ) except I pay for him . Againe , a Ladie of the towne where he lodged , brought vnto him for deuotion and good wil , three treen disshes with a towel , he beh●ld them , he praised them , but in any case he would not take them . And at both these tymes S. Bernard was present . And saieth herevpon vnto Eugenius : O that we might haue store of such men geuen vnto vs , as thes were , whom I brefly haue spoken of .

If therefore the Pope him selfe was good , and some Cardinalles and Bishopes were holie men , how can you witho● impudencie drawe S. Bernard to such 〈◊〉 sense , as thoughe he should condem●● the whole See and Church of Rome● And if ( as I saied before ) you thinke him not to speake generally , what helpeth it your cause , in departing from the Church , to proue that some Prelates be Pilats ?

Secondly , I might wel and truely say , that S. Bernard speaketh against the maners of the Court of Rome , and not against the faith of the Church of Rome . And though he should name the Pope for his euill behauiour , which he doth not , a Pilate : yet concerning his Authoritie and office , he geueth vnto him all the titles of excellencie , that are found in the Scriptures , from Abel to Christ . Affirming besides , him to be the shepheard , not only of sh●pe , but of all other Shepheardes also ▪ and , Others to haue bene called to take parte of the cure , but hym to haue fulnes of power , with other such wordes more , of like sense .

Thirdly I aunswere , he neuer spake so vnreuerentlie of the Pope in all hys workes . And that the testimony which you alleage , is not in the bookes ad Eugenium .

The old Father Epiphanius saieth , Apolog. it is an horrible wickednes , Epiph. and a sinne not to be suffred , Haere . 61. for any man to set vp any picture of Christ him selfe .

See how these felowes can amplifie and ●et furth a lie ? Confut. . ●35 . Epiphanius , they thinke , ●aketh for them , and therfore they dresse ●im in their own colours . Ye find not in hī●either these greauous and mightie ter●es , horrible wickednes , and Synne ●ot to be suffred . Neither these precise ●onclusions , that any man shal not set ●p anie picture : Neither this aggraua●ing addition , of Christ him self . He spea●eth quietly , and he speaketh not gene●ally , but against a certaine kind of Ima●es , or honor done to them , as appeareth by the words istiusmodi vela , such kin● of veiles . And he prescribeth nothin● against the Image of our Sauiour Christ●

If ye wil not leaue this place , but pro●● that it maketh against Images , Pluck●● out first these lies , and repaire the testimonie , making it neither better neither worse then Epiphanius doth permit you , and then shal you be otherwise answered .

The old fathers Origen & Chriysos●● exhort the people to reade the scriptures , Apolog. to bye them bookes , to reason at home betwixt themselues of diuine maters , wi●es with their husbands , & parents with their children . These men condemne the scriptures as deade ●lements , And , as much as eue● they may , barre the people from them .

Ye ioyne these two Fathers togeather as though they both confirmed your lyes . Confut. 236. But Origene neither speaketh of byeing bookes , Ho. 9. in Leuit ca. ●16 . nsither of reasoning at home 〈◊〉 the scriptures , but of coming to church and hearing the scriptures , and of thinking afterwardes at home , vpon the keping of them in mynde , and fol●wing them .

Then as concerning S. Chrysostome , he speaketh agaynst suche as neglected the reading of Scriptures , and thought this to he a sufficient excuse , for them that they were no Monkes : Ho. 2. in Matth. as who shuld sa●e , we haue wife , children and household , with other things besides to thinke vpon , and therefore it is not our vocation to looke in the lawe of God , and by that to amende our liues .

He speaketh likewise against other , which loued to haue faier and trym books of the Gospel , for ostentation sake , not to reade them and profit by them . Of which sort ther may be found , at this present , som in the world , which liuing loosly , and regarding their soules health slenderly , cary yet the testament or some parte thereof bound vp in golden forel , and hang it about their necks like a Iewel . But as for the biyng of Scriptures , he spaketh it by occasion only , in reprouing such as had books in their cupbords , and no understanding or sense of them in their mind .

For after he had saied : Hom. 3● . in loan . This hauing of bookes commeth of the Iewish ambition and craking , vnto whom the commaundementes were geuen in letters , and vnto vs not so , but in the tables of our hart , which are of fleash , least he shuld sem to derogate somwhat hereby vnto the written Scriptures , he addeth : yet I do not forbid it to gette books , yea rather I pray you most ernestly get them , but so , that we maie repere often in our minde , both the letters and sence the of them . He was not therefore so careful of it , that euery man shoulde bye the scripture : but this he studied for , that euery man should be diligent in bearing away of the scriptures readen ▪ or preached in the open church .

Proue ye now that S. Chrysostome exhorted all and singular of his people , to bye them bookes , especially in the vulgar tounge . And iudge ye whether he had so little discretion to mo●e al therevnto , which verie few could bring to passe , the raritie and pryce of the written bookes being considered .

Nowe as concerning the other lie , that wiues at home with theyr husbandes , or children with theyr parentes should reason betwixt themselues of diuine maters : either I vnderstand not your englishe , or els ye abuse S. Chrysostom most shamefully . For if ye meane , that al that reasoning ( which you imagin ) signifieth no more , but that the father shuld instruct his sonne , and the wife geue eare to her husbandes good counsel , then surely you must pardon me , I neuer vnderstood this much before , that reasoning of diuine maters should haue so litle question in it . But if reasoning betwixt parties doth importe an argueing to and fro , with obiections , solutions , replies , resolutions , diuises , suppositions , &c. And if reasoning of diuine maters , doth signifie the question proponed not to be of so smal geare , as the childes education , or the womans silence which she ought to kepe at home , but of the Trinitie , Incarnation of Christ ▪ value of Sacramentes , Iustification , predestination , &c. Doe ye make S. Chrysostome so vnlike himselfe , that ye woul● permitte a disputation of Diuinitie , betwixte the man , his wife , and his boye ?

Suche Scholes in deed kepte the Waldenses , and as thoughe it had bene nothing worth except the world did know it , Act. and Monu●ents . 673 they brought furth theyr yonge children so well instructed in Diuinity , tha● they were able to appose and aunswer one the other in no triflyng questions . But S. Chrysostomes meaning is altogeather otberwises : and he would haue lai● men to read the Scriptures at home , in maner of repeating , not of reading or making a lesson . And that they shoulde remembre and call to mynde suche thinges as they had learned of the Bishope , and not studie themselues vpon anie text at al , as though they must be preachers , T● edifiel also themselues and others by folowing a good life , not by seeking a newe conclusion of Doctrine .

How proue ye also , that he speaketh of the whole Bible , to be bought and readen ? For the easie partes thereof , maie be put into the peoples handes , but the whole in no wise . The Greeke texte also was not nor is not so corrupt , as your englishe translations . And to be shorte the people are nowe more proude and bolde , then at those daies they were . For then , with vnwasshed handes they were afraied to touche only the Scriptures : and now they take vpon them to interprete them in shoppes , alehowses , waggons , and feariebotes .

The auncient Fathers , Apolog. Cyprian , Epiphanius , and Hierom say , it is better for one , who , perchaunce , hath made a vowe to leade a sole life , and afterward liueth vnchastly , and can not quench the flames of ●uste : to marie a wife and liue honestlie in wedlocke .

Concerning S. Cyprian , Conf. 237 by his owne wordes I wil proue that ye misconstre him . If they ( saieth he speaking of virgins in generall ) haue by faith and promise dedicated themselues vnto Christ , Lib. 1. Epist. 11. let them continue honestly and chastly , that no tales be made of them . And so be●ng strong and stedfast , let them looke for the rewarde of virginitie . But if they wil not or can not continue , better it is that they mary , than fal , through their lustes and delightes , into the fier .

This is the place , and how doe ye now vnderstand it ? If ye refer it to virgins in general , that is truly saied in dede : ●ary it serueth not your purpose , to proue by S. Cyprian , that Nonnes maie marie . If ye refer it to virgins alreadie professed , th●● doth the one parte of the sentence destroie the other , and it is impossible , tha● both should hang togeather .

For if , according to your sense , virgins after vowe made , might laufulli● marie : how standeth the former parte● the sentence , defining , that if they hau● dedicated themselues vnto Christ , le● them continue ? And when this precept is to be obserued of virgins professed , how can it folowe by anie reason , that the selfe same persons , should haue it so sodenly graunted vnto them : That if they can not or wil not continue , better it is to mary ? S. Cyprian therefore speaketh of such , as are free to choose either this or that , and not of such as are past choosing .

And againe , if the place were vnderstanded as you say , then might Nonnes marie , not onely when they can not quenche the flames of theyr luste , but also if they wil not . For if they can not or wil not ( saieth S. Cyprian ) better it is that they marie , then fal through theyr lustes and delyghtes , into the fiere . But this is incredible , that so good a man would geaue a licence so euil : ergo you doe mistake S. Cyprian .

Concerning S. Hierome , Ad Demetriadē●e virginitate ●er ●anda . whome in like maner ye haue abused : his words are . The name of certaine , which behaue not themselues wel doth defame the purpose of holie virgins , and of the heauenly and Angelicall companie . Vnto whom ( which whom ? Vndoubtedly such as liued emong virgins , not yet professing virginity , but intending and purposing it only ) it must be plainly saied , that either they mary if thei can not conteine , or conteine if they wil not mary .

Now that there is such a distinction of virgins to be made , it appeareth most euidenly by S. Hieroms owne wordes not twentie lines before this place , saying . But let this perteine to those virgins which haue not yet chosen virginity , and nede exhortation , that they may knowe what it is , that they ought to choose . ( this is , to virgins not yet professed : but in the person of the professed , it followeth ) OF VS , the things , which we haue chosen , are to be kept . Therfore ye knowe , what followeth : that ye haue abused S. Hierome , because he permitteth not mariage to such as haue already made a vowe of virginitie .

Last of all , as touching Epiphanius , these be his words : Epipha , haere●● . .71 . The holy Apostles of God haue leaft this tradition vnto vs , that it is a syn to turne to mariage , post decretam virginitatem , after virginitie decreed and determined . And the Apostle writeth : 1. Cor 7. If a virgin mary , she hath not sinned . How then agreeth this with that ? That is to say , if this be true , that a vrigin may mary , how agreeth it with the Tradition of the Apostles , that It is a sinne for a virgin to turne to mariage ? Epiphanius answereth by expounding the Apostle in these words .

Illam dicit quae non est Deo dicata , The Apostle ( in saying , that if a virgin marie , she doth not sinne ) speaketh of that virgin , which ys not dedicated vnto God . Ergo he is not contrary to the foresaied Tradition of the Apostles , by which such virgins are forbidden to marie , as haue vowed their virginitie . Ergo , to say further : They which accompt mariage to be vncleane ( as the Apostolici did , against whom Epiphanius there writeth ) agree not with the Apostle . And further , they that saie , a virgin maie marie after she hath made a vow , ( as the compilers of the Apologie do falsly gather ) are contrary to the tradition of th' Aposples , and to Epiphanius most euident resolution , which I haue shortly declared .

By this it wil appere , whether the auncient fathers be wel vsed of the Apology , whereas S. Cyprian , S. Hierom and Epiphanius , whom so closely they name , for witnesses , do so manifestly testify against them that none must marie after they haue dedicated theyr virginitie vnto God .

The auncient Emperour Iustinian , commaunded , Apolog. that in the holy administration al thinges should be pronunced with a clere , loud & treatable voice , that the people might receiue some fruict therby . These men leste the people should vnderstand them , mumble vp al theyr seruice , not only with a drouned & holowe voice , but also in a strange and barbarous tongue .

First you make the Emperor to speke of Con. 242 the holy administration , not telling vs either what or whereof ? For ther is an holy adminstration of al the seuen sacraments , and in other things also which the church obserueth , as halowing of churches , of paschal taper , of palma , of asshes , and in bu●iyng of the dead . But the decre is referred to the holy oblation or sacrifice , the truth of which as ye wil not beleue , so the very s●und of the word ye can not wel abide . Secondly th' emperor speketh not of som fruit as you say ( as though no profit c●me of th' oblation , if the priest spake not aloud ) but of more deuotion to be stirred therby . Geuing vs to vnderstand that al is not lost , though nothing be hard , but somwhat is won , when the sense is more stirred . Thirdly your surmise that we therfore speke with a holow voice , lest the peple shuld vnderstand vs , is vnsensible . For neither the clergy shuld lese any thing , if the people were learned : Nor the people should vnderstand much , spake thei latin neuer so loud . And heretiks wold vtter the secrets of our seruice were we neuer so warie : And no charitable man will suspecte it of the whole Church , that they enuie the peoples commoditie . Then , as for mumbling vp the Seruice , the Catholikes doe in theyr most chiefest Churches , sing and saie more distinctly and treatably , then anie protestantes doe . And ( I feare ) if Seruice were so songe in England , as the Dominicans , Augustines , Franciscanes , and Carthusians doe vse , many of the moste feruente in sprite , would complaine vppon the leisure and treatablenes , that were taken in it .

Fourthely the Latine is no strange or barbarouse tongue , as being the most common in this west parte of the world , and one of the three principall and lerned tongues .

Pope Iulius doth euidently forbyd , Apolog. that a Priest in ministring the Communion should dippe the bread in the cup. These men contrary to Pope Iulius decree , diuide the bread and dyppe it in the wine .

He doth it so euidently , Confut. 243. that it is not at all , to be seen in his decree . Shewe it , that he forbiddeth the Priest to dippe the bread in the Cuppe ( as we vse in our mysteries ) and ye shal be honest men . But he speaketh , De consec distin. 2. cūomne not of the maner of the Priestes vsing or receiuing the Sacrament , but only of ministring of the hoste dipped in the blud , vnto the peple , which neither at this daie is allowed . You must serue vs no more with suche soppes dipped in lies .

Pope Clement saieth , Apolog. it is not lawfull for a Bishop , to deale with both swords . For if thou wilt haue both , saith he , thou shalt deceaue both thy selfe and those that obey thee . Now a daies , the Pope chalengeth both swordes , and vseth them both . Wherefore it ought to seeme lesse maruail , if that haue folowed which Clement saieth , that is , that he hath deceaued both his owne selfe , and those which haue geuen eare vnto him .

It is not laufull for you so desperatly to make lies . Con. 245 For how is not this desperatly done , to say that of any man , which 〈◊〉 not be proued by him ? The Pope sayeth , Si mundialibus curis fueris occupatus , if thou be occupied in worldly cares . And the Apologie maketh him to say , 〈◊〉 vtrumque habere vis , if thou wilt haue both swordes . If Cura signify a sword , and mundialis signifie two , Or if Occupari curis be , to occupi two swords , then hath the Apologie geuen a greate blowe to the Papistes . But whereas no such construction can be made , it hath fought , in this place , not only without 〈◊〉 sworde , but also without a scabberd : because there is no such word in Pope Clement , in which they maie put anie of the two swordes that they drawe out of his testimonie .

Nazianzen pronounced openly that he neuer had seen any good end of any councel . Apolog.

He spake of the prouincial Councels . And he spake also of his owne time , Confut. 278. i● which , heretikes did commonly deceaue princes , and by force set vp their new deuices . But he was not so vnwise , as to mislike with Generall Councels , or to geaue an example to the posteritie , of extreme and vnreasonable disobedience .

In old time when the Church of God ( if we wil compare it with their Church ) was very wel gouerned , Apolog. both elders & Deacons , as saieth Cyprian , & certaine also of the common people were called vnto Councelles , and made acquainted with ecclesiasticall matters .

What were these , certain of the people , whom ye would proue , by S. Cyprian , to haue ben called to Councels ? By this word certaine , you signifie , that there was an order taken , who should come , who should not come . And you make your Reader to conceiue , that out of the common people , som were chosen , which should be present at Councels , as though that had bene materiall in the Primitiue Church .

But S. Cyprian saith no such thing , that any at al of the people , Cypr. in Sententiis Con. Carthaginensis . were called to the Councell , but only this , that when manie Byshopes , at the first daye of September , were assembled together at Crathage , with their Priestes and Deacons , the most part of the people were also present . But who sent 〈◊〉 them ? Or who thought theyr presence necessary ? or how make you , the presence of the most parte , to be , a calling o● certeine of the people ? By like reason you might say , that in al causes , where either a spiritual or temporal lorde is examined , the people are called to the hearing of it , because they are very prone to vnderstand newes , and are not forbydde●● to stand by , and here what is done in open Courte .

At the commyng of Christ , Apolog. of God his worde , of the ecclesiastical doctrine , and of the ful destruction of Niniue , and of that most beautiful harlotte , then shal the people which heretofore had ben cast in a ●raunce vnder theyr masters , be raised vp , and shal make haste to goe to the mountaines of Scripture .

I note , Confut. .331 . in this testimony of S. Hierom , your lieing sprit● , and sprity she spite . For whereas he speaketh , not of the Church of Rome , but of the vniuersall state of the world which is signified by Niniue , and whereas you care not what come of the world , so that the church of Rome may be defaced : of that , which was but one in S. Hierome , you haue made two things , and turne that one , which is altogeather of your owne making , to the setting furth of your procedinges .

For S. Hierom speaketh of the destruction of Niniue , In com . in Nah. cap. 3 . speciosissimae quondam meritricis , of Niniue which was once a most beautiful ha●lot : and you make him to speake of Niniue , & speciosissimae meretricis , of Niniue , and the most beautiful harlot , as though that Niniue were one thing , and the beutiful harlot were an other . Yet because this was not plaine enough for your purpose , you geue S. Hierome the spirite of prophesie . And verely you thinke he ment to foretell of the most Gorgeouse harlot Babilon : So that the beutiful harlot must not be vnderstanded now of Niniue peculiarly ( as S. Hierome applieth it ) but of the whore of Babilon . Which by the interpretation of the whorish heretikes is the See of Rome .

Iudge now whether this be to interpret S. Hierom , or to make a tale of their owne , by the gifte of theyr lieing Sprite .

From thence sayth S. Cyprian spring schismes & sects , Apolog. because men seke not the head , & haue not theyr course to the Fountaine of the Scriptures , and keepe not the rules geauen by the heauenly teacher .

Where hath S. Cyprian these words ? Or where speaketh he of the fountaines of the Scripture ? Confut. .347 Or the Original of truthe : Of seeking to an head : Of the doctrine of the Heauenly teacher . He speaketh in the treatise De simplicitate Praelatorum , or vnitate Ecclesiae , and he bringeth al those three pointes to this end , that Christe made Peter the head of his Church . But of those fountaines of Scriptures , we can not tel whe● he speaketh , and we knowe you so wel by this tyme , that we can not beleue you , except ye shew it .

The Euangelistes and the Apostles & Prophetes sayinges shew vs sufficiently , Apolog. what opinion we ought to haue of the will of God .

This is a true sayinge , Confut. .313 . yet Theodorete speaketh not of the wil of God generally , but , lib. 1. ca. 7 . 〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉〈◊〉 , of the Godhead . For the controuersie was then , betwene the Catholiks and Arrians , about the Consubstantialitie of God the Sonne with his Father : And therefore interprete him better , or vse not his Authoritie .

The 5. Chapiter , declaring how Councels are belyed and abused in the Apologie of the Church of England .

According to the iudgment of the Nicen Councel , Apolog. we say , that the Bishop of Rome hath no more iurisdiction ouer the Church of God , than the rest of the Patriarkes of Alexandria or Antiochia haue .

The Canon is : Conf. 50. Let the auncient custome continue in force , whiche he is it Egypt , Libya and Pentapoli , that the bishope of Alexand●ia haue power ouer them all , for asmuch as the Bishope o● Rome hath thus vsed . In these words , ( for asmuch as the Bishoppe of Rome hath thus vsed ) appeareth manifestlie the prerogatiue of the Bishoppe of Rome , as from whose maner and custome they take an example of theyr doeinges .

For if it should be so vnderstanded , that because the Bishoppe of Rome hath power ouer the countries about him , therefore the Bishope of Alexandria , and not the Bishope of Antiochia , should ●ule Egypt , Libya , and Pentapoly : that hangeth no better togeather , than if you should say , let the Bishop of Canterbury be Archbishop of Yorkeshire or Ireland , because the Bishoppe of Rome hath power ouer the Countreies about him . And allthoughe this Argument maie seeme to conclude à Simili , thus ( as , the Bishoppe of Rome ruleth his Countrie , so let euerie Metropolitane in like maner beare rule ouer his owne Countrie ) yet to appointe by name , either Eygpte to the Bishope of Alexandria , or Ireland to the Bishop of Canterbury , that must depend of some other cause , and not of this , that the Bishop of Rome hath iurisdiction in Italy .

Now consider the mater as the truth is , that the Bishoppe of Rome hath supreme authoritie emong al Bishopes , and then it foloweth by good reason , that the Bishop of Alexandria shall rule Egypt , because the Bishop of Rome hath so vsed . That is , because it is so apointed and so receiued at Rome , that Aegypte , Libya and Pentapolis should perteine to the Bishoppe of Alexandria : therefore let that order continue .

And this is the meaning of the Nicene Councell , and this maketh for the Popes Supremacy , and this proueth you to belye the Nicene Councel , which hath not at al , any such wordes as you mention , that he hath , no more Iurisdiction ouer the Churche , than the rest of the Patriarches .

The Councel of Carthage , Apolog. did circumspectely prouide , that no Bishoppe shoulde be called , either the highe Bishope , or Chiefe Priest .

The Councell doth not say ( No Bishope ) but , Conf. 53. A Bishop of a first See , shal not be called Chiefe of Priestes or highest Priest . For whereas there be other priestes besides in the world , which are not subiect vnto his see : reason it is , that his title extend it selfe to no more than those that are vnder his Iurisdiction . Also this Canon was for the Bishopes of the prouinces of Aphrica . And last of all it extendeth it selfe , only to the first sees , which are many according to the numbre of Countries , and not to the Apostolike See , and chiefe aboue all , which is but one .

The Councel of Nice , Apolog. as is alleaged by some in greeke , plainly forbiddeth vs to be basely affectiouated or bent toward the Bread and Wine , whiche are sette before vs .

This disproueth nothinge at all the real presence of Christ in the Sacrament , Conf. 108 especiallie if you would haue added that whiche foloweth in the verie selfe same sentence , and not haue clipped so worthie a Councell . For it foloweth thus : But lyfting vp our minde , lette vs by faithe , vnderstand , on that holy table to be laied the lambe of God , that taketh away the synnes of the world , which is sacrificed of Priestes , vnbloudelie : and receiuing his preciouse body and bloud verely , let vs beleue these to be the pleadges of our resurrection .

Therefore the Councel in forbidding vs to be baselie affected , intended not to make vs beleue that Christ is in heauen onlie , and not also vpon the Aultar .

The old Councell at Rome decreed , Apolog. that no man should come to the seruice saied by a Priest well knowen to keepe a Conucbyne .

We find no such Canon in the old Romaine Councels . But Nicolaus and Alexander Popes , haue willed , that none should heare the Masse of that Priest , whom he knoweth vndoutedly to kepe ● Concubine , whereby ye may vnderstand the masse alowed , and the lustes of the Clergie punished , and your mistaking of the Councell corrected .

The olde councell Gangrense , Apolog. commaundeth , that none should make suche difference betwene an vnmaried Priest & a maried Priest , as he ought to thinke the one more holy than the other for single life sake .

The wordes be these , Confut. 240. If anie make a difference of a Priest who hath ben maried , as thoughe when he sacrificeth , a man might not communicate with his oblation , accursed be he . The Councell therefore speaketh of suche as were first maried , and afterwardes toke Priesthode vppon them , and not contrarywise , of such as were first of all pristes , and then afterwards did fall to mariage . In which poynte the obiection of Catholikes against you , consisteth .

The Councell at Carthage commaunded , Apolog. nothing to be reade in Christes congregation , but the Canonical Sciptures .

Why reade you then Homelies of your owne making ? Conf. 24● But to the matter . The wordes of the councel are these . It hath seemed good vnto vs , that besides the Canonical Scriptures nothing be red in the Church vnder the name of the holy Scriptures . Therfore it forbiddeth not the reading of other thinges , but in that sort , as they should be commended and vttered for Scripture it selfe . And strait wayes it foloweth in the same decree . Let it be lauful also for the passions and deaths of Martyrs to be read , when their yerely feasts are kept . Doe you see your lie now , and wil ye lowly confesse it ? Or are ye so froward , that ye wil not see it , or are ye so cunning , that ye can defend it ? Your confession or defension we are content te heare , but if you will be blinde , lette others behold and consider , that nothing but Canonical Scripture , and the , deathes of Martyrs to be readen also in the Church , can not both be true and stand togeather .

And beholde whiles I thought this obiection could not possibly be refelled , it was for certainty reported vnto vs here by some that were present at M. Iewels sermon at Poules Crosse the fiftenth of Iuly last , that he complained that M. Doctor Harding wrongfully charged the authors of the Apologie with this place , as being a manifeste abusing and mangling of the third Councel of Carthage . For , sayd he , we alleage not this out of the Councel of Carthage , but of the Councel of Hippo.

Did ye so in deede ? Is not your Apologie therin against you ? Is not the Councell of Carthage both named in the Text , and noted in the margent thereof ? Your Latine is thus . In Apol. Ecclesi . Angl. Vetus Concilium Carthaginense iubet , ne quid in Sacro coetulegatur , praeter scripturas Canonicas , and in the margent , thus it is noted . Tertium Carth. ca. 47. And the English interpretation hath thus : The old Councel at Carthage commaunded nothing to be readen in Christes congration , but the Canonical Scriptures : and there lykewise in the margent ye put Concil. Car. 3. cap. 47.

How dare ye then so loudly to lie , that ye alleaged the foresaied place out of the Councel of Hippo , and not the Councell of Carthage ? It appereth well , that Doctor Harding hath ye vpon the hippe , when to saue your selues from the fall , ye deny your owne words . In his reply to D. Cole . And wonder it is , that M. Iewel would euer be the reporter of such an answer , In his replie to D Harding .157 . whereas himselfe hath vsed this very place of the Councel of Carthage to like effect and purpose , as ye haue vsed it in your Apology . Especially wheras there is no Councel of Hippo extant at al , vnto which yet ye refer your selues . Consider therfore ( Indifferent reader ) of this place , and suffer not thy selfe so to be abused , that they shal make thee beleue , that they alleaged not that Councell , whiche thou maiest see with thy owne eyes to be named and quoted in theyr Apologie , and that they folowed the Canons of the Councell of Hippo of whiche they can shewe no Canons at all , that are extant .

In the Councell at Chalcedone , Apolog. & Ciuile Magistrate condemned for Heretiks by the sentence of his owne mouth , the Bishoppes , Dioscorus , Iuuenal , and Thalasius , and gaue iudgement to put them from that promotion in the Church .

In what parte of that Councell , Conf. 315. maie one finde this which you reporte ? In the thirde Action we doe reade , that Paschasius with his two felowes the Legats of the Pope of Rome , pronounced the sentence of condemnation against Dioscorus , the forme whereof is fully there expressed . How then ? Shall we thinke , that one of the Popes Legates was a Ciuill Magistrate ? Or that the Ciuil Magistrate condemned Dioscorus ageine by the sentence of his own mouth , when he was sufficiently iudged , by the whole Councel of Bishopes ? Ye haue manie fetches , yet you can not but be conuinced in this place of an impudent lye , or extreme folie .

The most that ye might saie ( as farre as we can reache ) is , that the Ciuile magistrate subscribed vnto the sentence of the Councell , and by his voice also condemned Dioscorus for an heretike . But this is not inoughe for you , to saue your honesties . For you must declare , that the ciuil magistrat , not only condemned them , by his testimonie or assent , but also by his sentence , and not such a sentence only as might concurre with the iudgmentes of the Superiours ( lyke as euery bishoppe in a general Councel geueth sentence in causes Ecclesiasticall . But it is included within that one sentence which the chiefest in al the Councel do alow and geue ) but you must proue , that the ciuil mgistrat gaue the sentence with his own mouth . For so ye speake as though he had ben the the best man in the place and president of the Councel .

To this of Dioscorus that ye may aunswer the more fully , I wil not troble yo● with Iuuenal and Thalassius , whome ye haue also belyed in this mater , Bishopes of an other sorte than Dioscorus was , although you haue condemned them together .

The Sixth Chapiter wherein is noted , how the Apologie belieth and abvseth the Scriptures themselues .

It was saied indifferently to all the Apostles , Apolog. Feed eye .

YOu meane , Conf. 48. I am assured , the one and twenty of S. Iohn , in which chapiter yet , there is no mention at al , of the plural number , with Feed ye : but , to S. Peter alone feede thou ( saieth Iesus ) my lambes , feede thou my shepe . Whether haue you a Ghospell not yet knowen to the world , in which Christ saieth indifferently to al his Apostles , feede ye ?

Woe vnto you Scribes and Pharseis , Apol. which haue taken away the keies of knowlege , and haue shut vp the kingdome of heauen before men .

The Scripture saying , Conf. 72. that one iote or title of the law shal not passe , vntil all be fulfilled , a changing of the numbre in any place of the Gospel , must not be thought to be vnworth the noting . Lu●● . 11. Of the keie of knowlege Christ spake , and not of keies in the plural number .

Paule saieth , Apolo . that the tyme should be , when men should not awaie with holsome doctrine , but be turned backe vnto ●ables and lyes , and that wythin the very Church .

And that within the very Church ? Conf. 20● . Where finde ye these wordes in S. Paul ? That men should not away with holsome doctrine , it is to be founde in the fourthe chap. of the seconde to Timothe . And it is verified in all heretikes : but that S. Paul ●hould referre those wordes to the very Church it selfe , it is impudently attributed to the Apostle .

And to graunte vnto you as muche as might be , for excuse of your wordes , that in some sense it might be true , that euen within the verie Churche men shoulde not away with holsome Doctrine : that is , that althoughe manie , for theyr vnderstandinge dissented not from it , yet in theyr lyuing they shoulde impugne it : Yet , to saye as you doe , that S. Paule dothe expound his woordes of the verie Churche , it is altogeather boldelie , and falselie affirmed .

God , Apolog. by hys Prophetes often and ernestly commaundeth the King &c. To wryte out the booke of the Lawe for hym selfe .

Ye bring this place to proue , Conf. 303 that temporal Princes haue as much to doe with Religion , as Bishoppes and Priestes . For the Kinge ( saye you ) muste write out the Lawe . Deut. 17. But whie leaue ye out that whiche foloweth , accipiens exemplar , takynge the Copie of the Priestes of the Trybe of Leuie ? By which woordes it is clearlie perceyued , that it is not in the Kynges handes to meddle with Scriptures , but as he receaueth them of his betters ( in that authoritie ) the Priestes .

King Ioas bridled the riot and arrogancie of the Priestes . Apol.

We finde no such wordes in the text , Conf. 307 4. Reg. 12.

Iosue receiued commaundements , Apolo . specially touching religion .

We haue readen the whole Chapiter Iosue 1. Confut. .305 . and we find no suche specialities there , but onelie that he shoulde passe ouer Iordane , And diuide the lande of Promise , and be of good cumforte and strength , with other lyke woordes , all to the Temporall Gouernement of the ●eople : but , of Religion , Sacrifice , Praying for the people , expounding the Law &c. no one sentence . Yea rather ( as it appereth in the first setting of him , in his office ) the scripture saieth expressly , 〈◊〉 any thing be to be done for this Iosue , Eleazar the Priest shal aske counsel 〈◊〉 the Lorde . Nu , 27. At his worde ( vndoubtedly at the Priests ) he shal goe furth and come in &c. Which of the two then 〈◊〉 nerer to God , and worthier by his office ? He that speaketh himselfe with God , or he that heareth God his word by any interpretatour ? He which geaueth the commaundement , or he which must obey it ?

Doe no more so , with the scriptures , and if none shal let you , to make your own sense vpon them : yet neuer take so much vpon you , to put in the text it self , which is not of the Scripture . And further consider , whether this be not to adde and take awaie from the Scripture , to make that of the plural number , which is of the singular only : To suppresse those wordes which being put in , doe dissolue the kno● of the question : To put that in , whiche is not at al in the text : To alleage sayinges that can not be found : And to misconstrue sentences that are founde . And then , when you haue considered all this , conferre therewith , that which ye finde in the Apocalipse of S. Iohn , that , If any man adde vnto these things , Apo vl. God shal lay vpon him the plagues that are written in this booke . And if anie man diminishe of the wordes of the booke of this prophecy , God shal take his part out of the booke of life , and out of the holy Citie , and from these things which are written in this booke .

The 7. Chapiter , conteining the flat lyes of the Apologie .

There haue ben wittely procured by the Bishop of Rome certaine persons of eloquence enough , Apolog. & not vnlcarned neither , which should put their helpe to his cause now almost desperate .

NAme the Pope which hath procured them : Confut. 9 Name the Persone which haue ben procured , and ye shal either confesse your faultes , or stand gyltie for two lyes .

Proue also , that he wylely procured ani men to help his cause : because this word wylely maketh your lye and slaunder more greeuous . For either you meane , that he did it in d●de , and that he would not be sene to doe it , either that he did it boldly and manifestly , but yet vsed a witty and subtil meane vnto it .

Concerning the first , he neded not to be ashamed to defend his cause . He might boldly without reproch choose any of the lerned and eloquent Catholiks for that purpose . For , the faith which the whole Churche openly confesseth ▪ what dishonesty at al is it , to commaund aloud , that the best lerned shuld declare it , and by declaring of it commend it , that when iust cause is geuen of it , it mai be knowen for a truth sufficiently , proved .

Concerning the second , it were a small part of policy , to labour by a fancy to perswade the whole world in a falsitie .

Princes desirous to restrain the gospel sought many wayes , Apolog. but preuailed nothing : & now almost the whole world doth begyn to open their eies to behold the light .

What place hath your gospel in Spain ? Conf. 1● What place in Italy ? What successe hath your gospel in France ? When Lady Marie was once proclaimed Queene , how preuailed your preaching ? Did ye not flee beyond sea into free Cities ? And why into those more than into ani other ? but because ye preuaile not with Princes , but such as cal you to their fauour , of whom yet ther are so few , and so weak in al Christendom that in the rekning they make a litle somme . And now ( say you ) the whole world almost , doth begyn to open their eyes . A worshipful begining after xv● yearis . But why say ye not ( without almost ) that al the whole world beginneth to open their eyes ? You haue a conscience ( I trow ) in making a lye and therfore you add almost . How much then lacketh I pray you ? If Lo●ā , Paris , Bonony , Padua , Salamanca , Cōplu●ū and other great Vniuersities , but smal ●ortiōs of the whole , if these were lightened by your gospel , would ye put out your almost ?

What meane ye by this almoste ? Perchance all is ouercomed with you , sauing Rome itselfe , and the small Cities about it . Nay , haue ye not greate and Princely states , ( as of Florence , Vrbine , Genua , Ferrara , Millaine , Venice , Treuers , Mentes , Colone , Salisburg , and the Catholike Cantones ) And sundrie Countries ( as Bauarie , Sauoy , Burgundie , Loraine , Brabrant , Flaunders , Holland , Artoys , Henaut , Friseland , Guelderland , Cleueland , Prussia , Carinthia , ) And many Ilandes , ( as Sicilia , Corsica , Sardinia , Maltha and the Zelands ) And many kingdoms ( as Naples , France , Spaine , Pole , Bohemie , Hungary , and Portugale ) and the Empire it selfe , which see well enough how darke your gospel is ? But no matter for these small peeces .

What say you then to the new Indians , which alone are greater , than all , whom we haue rekened ? If you lacke but them alone , haue you all the world all most ? No : This is so great a lye , that ● might turne it backeward , and say : the whole world almost doth defie your Gospel .

All theyr trauayle hath in a manner come to naught . Apolog.

How say you to the late general Councel , Conf. 15 . which had so wonderful good successe , and which is so executed in Rome it selfe , that not only the Bishopes , but Cardinals also are sent to theyr cures , and goe obediently vnto them .

No bodye driuing it forwarde , and without anie wordly helpe .

King Harry the eygth then , is no body with you , the Duke of Saxonie , Lantgraue of Hesse , King Edwarde the sixth , the Villaines of Boheme , the Hugonites of France . &c. Al these then are no body .

On the other syde our cause againste the wil of Emperours .

If Charles alone had not geuen more to clemencie ( which ouercommeth , most of all , noble personages when they haue the greatest victorie ) than to iustice : wher had the Dukes of Saxony and other your defendours bene ?

From the beginning against the wills of so many Kinges .

Euery Anabaptist in Brabant or Scotland , liueth against the Princes wil , because he generally wisheth euery heretike out of the way , for feare of infecting the good Chistians : yet ther is another wil in Princes , which if they would folow , no heretike could haue peeped vp in all Christendom , but he shuld haue ben quikly dispatched .

In spite of the Popes .

That is true in one sense , because in deed very spite hath moued diuers men to refuse his authority : but in an other it is false . For if he ( for example ) had stomaked the matter , he had held them for excommunicate which should haue the name of King Henry in their bokes , like as on the contrary side it was high treason to haue the name of Papa in any writing or Calender .

And almost maugre the head of al men , hath taken encrease .

Here again commeth in almost . No , if men had resisted it in deede , it had neuer ben receiued . But partly through couetise of Church goods , partly through werines of straight liuing partly through hatred of superiour powers , and partly through curiosity to heare what newes came out of Germanie , the merchandise of heretikes had an open vent .

And by litle & litle spread ouer into al countries , and is come at the length euen to princes Courtes and palaces .

Neuer say at length . For euen from the begining therof it was in the Courts of Princes , as of King Henrie the viij . Duke of Saxony &c. And by plaine force of law , the greater part of our owne country is kepte yet stil in it .

The holy Fathers did alway fight against the heretikes with no other force , Apolog. then with the holy Scriptures .

It is false , Confut. 27. as it appeareth by the first Nicene Councel , declaring the consubstantiality of God the Sonne with his Father . The second Councell at Constantinople , resorting to the writinges of theyr for fathers for profe of the Godhead of the holie Ghost . The Councel at Ephesus , defining our blessed Ladie to be Deiparam , the Mother of God , and not only Christiparam , the mother of Christ : And the Councel at Calchedon where the fathers cried out aloud against Eutyches ( denieing the two natures in Christe , and asking in what Scriptures laie the two natures ) Ea quae sunt Patrum teneantur . Those things which the Fathers haue thought , let them be kepte .

If there had bene any whiche would be but a looker on and abstaine from the holy Communion , Apolog. him did the old fathers and Bishops of Rome in the Primatiue Church , before priuate Masse came vp , excommunicate as a wicked person and as a Pagane .

How proue ye this ? Con. 92. Marie out of a decree of Calixtus , or as ye should say Anacletus . Yet he speketh not of al the people , but of the clergy onli ▪ which he apointeth to attend vpon the Bishop at the aultar : which are to saie , seuen , fiue , or three Deacons , likewise , Subdeacons , and other ministers . Neither are they excommunicated if they doe not receiue , but willed to be kept without the Church dores : a far lesse punishment , so far furthe at the least , that it proueth you a lyer .

Our aduersaries at this day haue violently thrust out and quite forbydden the holy Communion . Apolog.

They haue so forbidden it , Conf. 9● . that seeing th● slewth of the common people , they haue made an expresse law , that whosoeuer doth not communicate at Easter , shal not be taken for a Christian.

And bysides , if it be to far for you to goe to Rome it selfe , whereas the examples of the primitiue Churche continue in theyr best practise , you maie aske of the Churches of Flanders and Brabant , and if there be not more receiuing at euerie principal feast in the yere , than is church for church , in the whole yeare with you , then let me be reproued . And this ofte receauing of Catholike people , can not stand wyth a violent thrustyng out , and a forbidding the holy communion , as you belie the Clergie .

Now , if by the holy communion ye meane not , the receiuing of the Sacrament as Catholykes vse , but receiuinge vnder bothe kindes , neither in that sence speake you truely . For no violence was vsed whiles one kind only was ministred , no commaundement driuing the Christians at the first vnto it , but their owne willes and deuotions allowing it : neither , by anie later Canon of the Churche are both kindes so quite forbidden , but that vpon good aduise and charitable consideration , both may be graunted .

The Bishoppes of Rome doe carie the Sacramentall bread aboute , Apolog. vppon an amblyng horse whither so euer them selues iourney .

What if he would ryde twelue miles or seuen miles out of Rome , Confut. 111. doth he carie the Sacrament with him vppon an horse ? No forsothe . Ergo not whether so euer he iourneieth .

Againe , howe doth he carie it ? In lyke sorte , as noble men carie theyr necessaries with them vpon Sumpter horses , or packe vp in casketes trunkes or males anie of theyr singular and pretiouse iewelles ? Surelie the simple and plaine Reader , maie thinke vpon the credite of your woordes , that the Pope when he rydeth out of towne , carieth the Sacrament inclosed vp with him , and set vppon some horse , as though it were perteyninge to his household prouision .

Yet the truthe is farre otherwyse : for in solemne and greate processions onelie , the Sacrament is cariede about .

But , I truste , a Procession , is none of the Popes iourneys , neither muste his holines be sayed to ryde out of towne , when he goeth about the Cytie in his Bishoppelie Ornamentes for praiers sake onelie and deuotion .

Now when such high feasts do come , the monstrance or pix for the Sacrament being verie greate and massy , is sette in deede vpon an horse , not as a cariage of the Popes , but as conteining a Sacrament of the Christians . Which , that it might be the better in syght , and with more ease caried about , therefore hath it pleased the deuotion or inuention of no euil men , to prepare a fayre horse to carie vppon his backe the pix in which that bodie is kepte vnder the forme of bread , whiche disdayned not to ride vpon an Asse , Matt. 21 . when it came into Hieruselem in visible forme of fleash .

They say , Apolog. and sometyme do perswade fooles , that they are able by theyr Masses to distribute and apply to mens commoditie all the merites of Christe his death , yea although many tymes the partyes thinke nothing of the mater , and vnderstand ful litle what is done .

Name them that doe saie so , Confut. 115. and you shal be discharged of a lie , and they punished for their words . For the Catholiks alow not these phrases : we are able to distribute by our Masses &c. As who should say , the Priest were no more a sinfull man , nor an hygh minister , at the most vnder God , but were in dede a certaine God , and had in his owne power to pleasure whom he listeth : which is nothing so . For if we shal consider the acte of the Priest as it is his owne Psonal , so doth he according to his deuoute intention , not by authoritie , but by supplication , obtaine a vertue and influence to come frome Christ , to them for whom he specially offereth . ● But himselfe also being a poore wretche and compassed with infirmitie , he neuer learned of the Church so proudly to speake as , that , I am able to do this by my Masse .

Againe , if it were true , and if the Church did so teache , that the Priest is able of his own self without asking leaue , to make applications of Christes merits , ( which in dede is not so ) yet to say , that he maie applie al the merites of Christes passion , is altogeather impossible . For whereas there is no proportion betwen a finite thinge and an infinite : the Priest which hath a limited Authoritie , and such a power as hath an end , how can he stretche it to the distributing of all the merites of Christes death , whiche are endelesse and infinite ? Therefore I saie discharge your selues .

And concerning that absurditie by which you would encrease your readers indignation against our cause , saying , that we distribute and applye Christes merites when the parties thinke nothing on the mater , that is not so vnreasonable , as the vnwise brother would thinke it . Whereas the praiers of the English congregation ( if in dede God accepted them ) maie procure strength in the Lorde , vnto the brothers of France or Germanie , although they were either a sleping or drinking .

It is a shameful parte and ful of infidelitie , Apolog. that we see euerie where used in the Churches of our Aduersaryes , that they wil haue innumerable sortes of mediatours .

Innumerable . Conf. 12● This is one plaine lye . For the Churche knoweth but two , the one when the party which commeth in betweene to entreate and make peace , maie by equalytie or Authoritie , haue to doe with both , of whiche sorte Ihesus Christ alone is a mediatour , being perfite God nothing inferiour to his Father , and perfite Man , nothing disdaining a man : The other when by waye of requeste onelie and by intercession , the freindes and acquaintaunce of both sides speake a good worde and fauorable , for the partie distressed , vnable by them selues to commmaunde or woorke anie thing , but by the fauor and especiall grace of him whiche hath the better . Of this sorte are all the Saintes of heauen a●d al good men in earth .

And poore men can not tell to whiche Saynct it were best to turne them first . Apolog.

Blessing to your hart , that you care for the poore , emong whom I neuer hard of anie , which was in the doubt , of whiche you speake . But if it be so in anie , it maie quickly be told him , that he study not long about the mater , but praie generally in short wordes , and say : O all ye Saintes of God pray for me .

What would these men haue saied , Apolog. when in al Councels newe ordres & new decrees continually were deuised ?

Marie we would haue stoode to the Catholike Councels , Confut. 186. in which new Credes from the old were neuer made , but the old made more plaine , by expounding in plainer words the faith that was before .

Some of the Fryers , Apolog. and Monkes , put a greate holynes in eating of fyshe , and some in eating of hearbes , some in wearing of shewes , and some wearing of Sandales , some goeing in a linen garment , and some in wollen .

If by some ye meane special persons , Confut. .143 . I can not tel what , nor where : When ye name them to vs , or wil send your charitable letters to them , I warrant you they shal be spoken withal . But whereas this appertaineth not to the common cause of the Church , or the controuersie and question betwene vs , what Frier Tucke , or Don Roger doe thinke priuatly , therefore if by the worde one , ye meane the whole orders of Friers and Monkes , and make this sense , that some orders of Friers put a great holines in fish , and some in flesh &c. Then doe most shamefully and vilie slander them .

For S. Bernardan Abbate instructeth his Monkes after this sorte : Corporum conuersio si sola fuerit , Serm. 2. in capit● Ieiunij . nulla erit : that is , the conuersion of the bodies if it be nothing but that , it is nothing . And by conuer●ion of the bodies , he meaneth ( as it foloweth in the sermon ) the shauing of Monkes , the cotem , the Rule of theyr fastes , and apointed howres of singing . And Petrus a Soto , the diuinitie Reader in Oxforth , in Quene Maries tymes , himself being a Dominican Frier , and keeping himselfe faith●ully within his order , yet he made no such accompt of externall thinges , as you falsely sclaunder Monkes and Friers to make . But as all learned men doe , when they write of the true worshipping of God ▪ so he expresly sayth with the Apostle , Tract . de inst● Sac. Iect . 5. That Corporal exercise is profitable to little but Pietie and deuotion is profitable to al thinges . ● . Tim. 4. And againe . Rom. 14 The kingdome of God is not meate and drinke , b●t Iustice and peace , and ioy in the ●olygost . Bring you furth now on the 〈◊〉 side that Religious men put an holines in such externall ceremonies or rules , a● you specifie .

Zuinglians and Lutherans vary not betwixt them selues vpon the principles & foundations of our Religion ▪ 〈…〉 God , Apolog. 1. nor Christ , nor the Holygost , nor of the meanes to iustification , nor yet euerlasting life , but ,

Upon one only question , which is neither weighty nor greate :

Neither mistrust we or make any dout at all ,

But they will shortly be agreed .

They vary about the body of Christ , Confut. ● the one confessing a true presence thereof in the Sacrament : The other withstanding it , and faining , Christe to be present by figure onlie : This is one .

Neither in the Sacrament only doe they differ , Nicolaus Gallus in the sibus & hypo . but also in questions of the law , of the Ghopel , of iustification and of good workes , as Nicolaus Gallus a Lutherane protesteth against them .

Nowe , whether the question of Christes presence be weightie or no , let him be iudge whiche heareth Christ saying , Nisi manducaueritis , Ioan. 6. excepte ye eate the flesh of the sonne of man , and drinke his bloud , ye shal not haue lyfe in you , &c. This is the third .

This which foloweth I note not as a lie , 〈◊〉 as a sensible and vain foly ▪ for the 〈◊〉 themselues striuing euery day more and more th' one against th' other , and ( as Ams●orphius a Lutheran witnesseth ) their contradictions being vnable by any possibility to be made agree togeather . How ful of vaine hope are you , which haue so litle doubt of theyr concorde , that ye trust they will be agreed shortly ?

They haue throwen vs into prison , Apolog. into water , into fyer , and haue embrued themselues in our bloud , not because we were either Adulterers , or Robbers , or Murtherers , but only for that we confessed the Ghospel of Ihesu Christ , and put our confidence in the lyuing God .

To speake of the holines and honesty of your behauiour , Conf. 152 I truste to haue a better tyme , in the meane season , I aske you quietly , was W. Flower put to death only for his confidence put in the lyuinge God , Act. and Monuments . pa. 1129. and not for striking and wounding a Priest , as he was ministring the Sacrament vnto the people ?

Our purpose here ys not to take in hand at this present to bring to light and open to the world , Apolog. those thinges which were meete rather to be syd and buried with the workers of them . It be seemeth neither our Religion , nor our modestye , nor our shamefastenes .

Ye lye like hypocrites as ye are : Conf. 154 doe ye not tarie longer in speaking the worst ye can of the Catholikes , than in any other common place of your modest and shamefast booke ? Doe ye not put in writing most shamefull thinges , either not done at al , or done so longe a go , that now they were hid and buried ? Doe ye not bring to Englishmens eares the vnknowen prankes of foreners ? Doe ye not oft repeate Diasios and Cassios , as though it stoode with modestie , to iterat , and exaggerat such tales ? But such is your Religion ▪ your modestie , and your shamefastenes , that it beseemeth you wel enough .

Let the Uicar of Christ and the Head of the Church remember , Apolog. that they be of his canonists which haue tought the people that fornication betwene single folke ys no synne .

It wil be harde for him to remember it , Confut. because he neuer heard it or read it . And as hard it wil be to heare or reade that , which was neuer spoken or writen of a Canoniste , proue ye nowe , that euer anie Canonist hath taught as you report .

Iohannesde Magistris , to whom you refer vs in your margent , can not be found to haue anie such wordes . Perchance ye would saie , Martinus de Magistris , whiche vas no Canoniste , but after the fasshion of Scholemen , asking the question whether simple fornication be a deadly sinne , maketh obiections first against the truthe , and afterwarde refelling them , concludeth most expresslie thus : Simple fornication excludeth from the kingdome of God : Ergo it is a mortal sinne .

Now if anie Iohannes de Magistris , vnknowen yet to the worlde , canne be brought furth of you to saue your honesty in so impudent a lye , yet excepte ye can proue , that he was one of the , Popes own Canonistes , ye can not but be giltie of one ●ie at the least in this place , which yet I dare say shal be forgeuen you , if ye can but proue , that euer any Canonist hath so concluded .

Goe to now , and proue your selues true men : and burden the Popes Canonists with alowing of that which is expressly condemned by them . Apolog.

Let him remember they be of his owne which haue decreed , that a Priest ought not to be put out of his cure for fornication . Confut.

You must bring him the place , or it is not possible he shuld find it . for your marginal note willeth him to seke can. 3. 9. 7. wher no such thing is , and the paragraph , Quia , which speaketh of such only as are not to be promoted to holy orders , because of theyr Bygamie . But the trueth is , that by al Canons old and new , Can. Si quis Ep. the faulte is punished . For by the old , were he Bishop , Priest , Dit . 81 . or Deacon , he was deposed and put to penaunce : by the later the party offending had tene yeres penaunce inioyned him .

Let him remember also , Apolog. how Cardinall Campegius , Albertus Pighius , & others many moe of his own , haue taught , that the Priest which keepeth a concubine doth lyue more holily & chastly , then he which hath a wife in matrimonie .

If ye were Cardinalles to his holines , Confut. no doubt ye would do him great seruice , which being so far out of office , and farre from Italy , take such care to bring thinges to his remembrance . But doe not ye not forget your selues in the meane tyme by affirming so boldly , so many ●yes ? Campegius and Pighius do not say that , which you reporte of them .

For of two euilles , there is no one the better , both being euil , but one is lesse euil than the other . A concubine with a priest is naught , and an open harlot ( no mater though ye cal her his wife ) is worse . They saie not , that to keepe a concubine is more holily and chastely done ( as though any holines were in it at al ) neither that to haue a wife in matrimonie is euill ( as though mariage were not honorable ) but of these two foule faultes , a Priest to keepe a secrete harlot , which goeth vnd●r the name and pretense of a necessary seruaunt , or the same to professe that she is his yoke felow , and to take the parish to witnes , that she is his , at bed and at bord : the first is euil , the seconde is worse : the first hath not put al shame asyde , the seconde is impudent : the first may come of infirmitie , the seconde wil haue it allowed by Authoritie .

I trust he hath not yet forgotten , Apolo . that there be many thousandes of harlotes in Rome , & that him selfe doth gather yerely of the same harlotes vppon a thyrtie thousand durkattes by the way of annual pension : Neither can be forget , howe him selfe doth maintaine brothel houses , and by a most fylthie lucre doth fylthylie and lewdely serue his owne luste .

Speake ye by report of others , Confut. or by experience ? If by report , were they that reported it , somewhat skilful in the mater or no ? If they were not , but spake also by reporte , standeth this with your purpose ? and doth this beseeme your Religion , your modestie , your shame fastnesse , which ye acknowledge in your selues , so absolutely to obiecte so greate a mater , to so great a Bishop , vpon an heare saie onlie .

But if they spake of knoweledge , howe came they by it ? Sate they in commission in Rome it self , and called the harlottes before them by authoritie ? But how were that either tolerable or reasonable ; in a strange Citie to plaie the Magistrate , or to labour in the numbring of harlottes ?

Or went they from house to house with a pryuie serche , making a worthie occupation for Ghospellers to be curious in ? Or through acquaintaunce with whores and bawdes , was the whole accompte without further labour brought vnto them ? They are not to be accepted for honeste witnesses , whiche are so wel acquainted , or so muche fauored of those naughtypackes . Perchaunce as they went vp and doun in the streets , they numbred certaine scores of harlottes . There was a simple eye then I trow , and a deuout purpose in the marker of such occurrentes . Yet if it were so , howe gather they , that manie thousands of harlots are in Rome , because they obserued manie here and there to goe in the Citie ?

What so euer shal be aunswered , it will be replied , that they them selues are not far from harlottes , which being no Commissioners for the purpose , so diligently obserue such proceedings , and that they which couete after such knowledge , doe feede in theyr myndes vppon no better than carren . And as it maie be seene by theyr apparell , distincte from honest women , that Curtesans are in that populous City , so to beable to say it constantly , that many thousands of them are therin placed , it must procede of experience , And it should not be reported in the hearing of Christians , excepte it were euidently declared . Yea neither them also , if we rightly vnderstood our Sauiour sayng : Ioan. 8. Lethim which is without syn emong you cast a stone first at her . Wherfore this of many thousand harlots in Rome shal stand for onelie , and he which dare come forth and proue it in dede , shal stand to defence of his honesti .

Now concerning the yearely pension which the Pope ( you saie ) gathereth of them : how great is it ? Mary vppon a thirty thousand duckates . And howe manie harlotes are there ? Manie thousandes you saie . But I aske how manie ? Make a gheasse as you do vpon the annual pension gathered of them . Are there think you , thirty thousande harlottes or thereabout ? Nay are ther three or foure thousands of So many as you would haue seme to be there ? Surely within this number you can not welcome , because ye affirme that manie thousandes are there .

Goe to then , if there can not by your accompt be lesse than three thousand ( for of two thousand only no man euer sayeth there are many thousandes ) euery one paieing ten ducketes by the yeare , the whole pension maie easely be made vp . And thinke you , that any man disposed to make a vantage , would gather no more of such persons , as so lightly come by their mony ? If but three thousand tippling houses were in anie Citie , a very fauorable Prince would not make so litle of them ( for excises &c. ) as thirty thousand duckates by the yeare . But if he were a couetous and greedie Prince , hauing suche a foule companie in his Citie of whome he might take large exactions euen for iustice sake , would he be contented with an yearely pension of so litle value ? So few thousand duckattes agree not with so manie thousand harlottes : and therefore ye shal doe wel to make areuew , and mend the lye where it is .

You procede further as it were to a greater mater : which if it be so , ye make a third lye , although in deede I suppose , that it is but the second lye in this place , set more abrode and dilated . For he maintayneth ( you saie ) brothel houses , &c. How proue ye that ? I think ye wil tel vs here again of the thirty thousand duckats , specially because ye speke also of a most fi●thy lucre , to which duckats we haue answered before . And now we say further , that he taketh no annual vantage of harlotes at al , but such as commeth from euerie one that dwelleth in the Citie , by auncient tribut and custome .

But you saie further , he maintaineth them ( I would ye were so maintained ) But by what meanes ? Defendeth h● theyr cause , as he would the causes of honest persons ? Doth he prouoke them by immunities and priuileges to tarie ? Is he offended when anie good man either mercifully doth conuerte them to a better kinde of lyfe , or iustlie punishe them , for offending againste the Lawe ? Wil ye see how they be maintained ?

They muste not dwell in haunted or great places , but in bycorners and lanes . They must not ryde abrode in coches or chariotes , but walke a foote in the streates . They muste not goe in apparell all lyke other women , but weare a shoorte vayle of one certaine colour vppon theyr heades , that they maie be knowen , for harlottes . And if they lyke strumpets doe offende against anie of these orders , they paie a greate forfait .

Of whiche pointe if ye will gather , that the Pope serueth therein his owne lust and lucre : what men are ye so to peruerte that , for whiche praise is due vnto him ? Shoulde he not punishe them at all ? Or in punishing them , should he not doe it to the terror and example of others ? Ye will aunswere perchaunce , that he shoulde haue none suche in the Citie . Obiecte then onelie that against him , and slander him no more with procuring aduantage in maintaininge of whores , nor defame hym no more that he seeketh his owne lucre by settinge greate Forefaites , or trybutes vppon hem .

And then concerning the permitting of them in the City , If Canel● and sinkes becommendable , them let M. lewel crie on ( as he did in his ●ast sermon against him ) that M. Harding wil defend 〈◊〉 cause of harlottes . I aunswere you , that in temporal gouermente it is not euil in respecte of a worse which els would follow , to lette harlottes and bawdes * lye with dishonor and shame in the sinkes of great Cities like as Minstrels , Daunsers , Iugglers , Vsurers , and other of vnhoneste and vile behauiour of life are suffered to remaine euen in London it selfe , and that when al the Superintendents of England shal be at theyr conuocation .

And this I speake touching ciuill policie : for concerning the spiritual gouernement , there is in Rome daily and vehement preaching against them .

In the beginning of Lent , and before Easter the Pope doth solemly accurse them .

Besides this , they shal make no testament before theyr death , nor afterwards be buried emong Christians , except they did repent in tyme of theyr life . How say you then ? Proue not these things in the iudgement of an indifferent man , that the Pope wil haue no harlots at al in Rome , if either experience of ciuil policy should perswade it , or force of his spiritual sword and sentence , could winne it ? And yet dare you so lewdly to write , that he mainteineth brothel houses . &c.

Of a monasterie , made by the blessed Pope Pius Quartus charges and charity , in which the Harlottes conuerted from their wicked trade of euill life , through publike preaching or priuate exhorting , should be receaued and kept in all honestie : of such a house and maintenaunce of them to such a life , we haue hearde , and they which haue ben at Rome , are certaine . But of any procuring of their contynuaunce in their filthe and harlotrie , you haue heard perchaunce , but you should not haue so stoutly obiected it , before ye had bene more sure of it .

Bring furth your Author , that we may see whether ye be not light of credit , Or proue your owne sayings true , if your selues be the Authours , that ye be not conuicted of impudencie .

If these things would haue pleased vs ( that is , Apolo . harlottes , brothel houses . &c ) we needed not to haue departed from these mens felowship , emong whom such enormities be in their chiefe pride and price .

I would this were true . Confut , 170. For then no doubt , but if ye were in company of good Catholikes , such as be as sorie as you for enormities , and complaine thereof as hartely as you , though not so vndiscretely : ye would repent you of your lying and slandering , and heare Masse with a good wil and deuotion , and pray to Saints , and pray for the soules departed , and obey the B. of Romes authority ▪ Which Bishop , at this present , is a man so diuine and excellent , ( as appeareth most euidently , by his expelling of deuils out of possessed bodies , by expelling the Courtesans out of the City , by correcting al disorders in the Court of Rome , by prouiding for those partes of Christendome , which either haue no Bishops , and then he sendeth them some , as of late he did into the Indians : or had Bishops , and enioyed them not , in which case he hath sent them home to their Countries ) that if in deed , ye had the mind to returne to the Catholike Church , ye might neuer better doe it , than now , when the heade therof is so wonderful for his holines , fortitude of mind , vprightnes , and Charitie .

But ye haue a mad fansie to belye your selues and say , that ye had no cause to depart from vs , if enormities of life wold haue pleased you : whereas in deede as long as the masse and the Pope be regarded , you cannot abide our companie , though the maners of the Catholikes were neuer so well amended . Now if ye dare be bolde with your selues and say , that ye be so persuaded as ye be not : take hede yet , what ye report of others , and think not , it is enough to say it , and neuer to proue it , that such enormities are with vs , in theyr chiefe pride and prince .

Paule the fourth not many monethes sence , Apolog. had at Rome in prison , certain Augustine friers , many Bishops , & a greate numbre of other deuout m●n , for religions sake , he racked them , and tormented them .

The truth is , Con. 171 he caused a Publike Edict to be made , charging all such as were gone out of their religion and habite , to returne againe to their house and Order . This commaundement preuailed with many , which considering their dissolute liues , came willingly vnder obedience and order . Others which passed not for the Popes commaundement or their former vowe , being apprehended were put in prison , that vexation might geue them vnderstanding , and that disobedience shoulde not escape vnpunished euen in their bodyes . As for racking and tormenting them , that is one : and that many Bishops were so handled , that is an other : or that they suffred for religions sake and not for their owne disobedience , that is a third fowle lye .

Although we be not the men we ought and professe to be , Apolog. yet whosoeuer we be , compare vs with these men , and euen our owne life and innocencie will sone proue vs true , and condemne their malicious surmises .

Concerning your liues , Con. 127 the greate adoe which yow make for wiues , proueth what gift of continencie is emong yow . And they being in deede no wiues but concubines , either one synne defended and mainteined , draweth not an other with it ( which is i●possible ) either els one maie iustly collecte and gather , that in the other maters besides incontinency , ye be not innocent . I reporte me also to your rayling vpon the Pope , whom ye knowe not : Your belying of honest men which yet liue : Your slaundring of whole orders and companies , either vpon heare-say only , or for the peculiar faults of some fewe persons . &c.

Call ye this innocency ? Let the world iudge , where more disordre of life is , emong Catholikes , or heretikes .

We haue ouerthrowen no kingdom , Apolog. we haue decayed no mans power or ryght , we haue disordered no common welth . Confut. 173.

The hundred thousand bandes of Germanie , which by tumult and vprore armed themselues against the nobility , and died al in it , be witnesse against you .

The Duke of Saxony and Lant graue of Hesse , he witnesses against you , because they stoode in field against Charles the v. whom ye can not denie to haue bene theyr true Soueraigne and Emperour .

The Sacramentarie Zuitzers of Berna , who robbed the Duke of Sauoie of his townes and Countryes from the farder side of the Lake of Geneua vnto the Alpes , they shal be brought against you .

Geneua it selfe , which is neither in the power of the Duke of Sauoie , nor vnder theyr lawefull Archebishoppe , but hath taken all iurisdictions from them , into her owne handes , maie proue somewhat against you .

The Hugonotes of Fraunce , your brothers , and others in Scotland which haue and doe yet continue in theyr rebellious stomakes and enterprises , shal testifye , that some mans ryghte is decayed by you . But if you thinke all these witnesses to be farre of , and that they can not be well examined , aske ( I praie you ) and I thinke ye shall finde , that the Brothers of Englande haue furthered the cause of the Hugonotes of France and Knokes men in Scotland .

And to be shorte , goe into your owne bosomes , and consider what compassion ye haue ouer the afflicted congregation of the lowe countries , where theyr conspiracies and enterprises , are so clearlie betraied and broken . Or consider what ioye ye haue had in it , when not only against lawful Authoritie , but also common honestie , and order , they spoiled Monasteries , expelled the Religious , threwe doune Churches , and plaied other suche parts , as sprites of hel doe sometymes in greate tempestes .

The B. of Rome to fede his ambition & greedines of rule , Apolog. hath pulled in peeces the Empire of Rome , and vexed and rente whole Christendome a sunder .

Merciful God , Con. 17● what meane ye ? Are ye offended , that the empire was placed in the Weast , to the defence of Christendom ? And the suppressing of the Lombards power which them was greuous to Italy , doth that of fend you ? Charles the greate , so blessed and valiant a Prince , shal his actes not onlie be called nowe into question , but vtterly be condemned through you ?

If you cal this , a pulling of the state in peeces , that an Emperour was set vp in the Weast , because the Emperour of the East was both vnable and vnready to helpe the Weast church , them is this present Emperour with al his predec●ssours gilty of vniust possession and accessory to the Popes ambition , as you terme it . For if at the beginning the title was not good , he can not with safe conscience abide in it . And if that were pulling the Empire in peeces , you perchaunce wil set it together againe , and helpe to put doune the Emperour now liuing with al that state , that ye maie make al ful and perfite , as it was vnder one Emperour ouer the whole .

Againe he did not feede his ambition , being as great in authoritie before as after . Neither pulled he it in peeces , but where ther was no whole and good peece left , there he placed a perfite state of gouernement . And it lacked so much that al Christendome was rent a sondre by it , that except by that meanes prouision had ben made for defence of the Church , the Lombardes euen at those daies and the Turke sense that tyme , had spoiled and rent al Chris̄tendome .

He put Chilpericus the French king being no cuil prince , Apolog. beside his realme , only bycause he fansied him not , & wrongfully placed Pipine in his rome .

Chilperike was so good a Prince , Confut. that He was commonly called stupidus , a dolt . He was also wholy geuen to belly chere , and loue of women . And therfore the whole realme of Fraunce made ernest sute to the Pope , that they might be loosed from theyr othe made vnto him : wherby it appereth , that the Pope folowed not an only fansy of hys own , but the requeste and aduise of a whole Countrie .

Now as for placing of Pipine wrongfully , I knowe not how they could make it probable , except he were made kinge against the good willes of the nobility , and communaltie of Fraunce . For whereas euery common wealth is greater than the Prince which gouerneth it , and maie depose the same vppon lawfull cause , and whereas ryot and doltishnes are causes sufficient so to does ( as making the prince vnable to gouerne it wel ) it foloweth consequently , that if the whole state of Fraunce deposed Chilperike and erected Pipine , ther was not fault cōmittedin so doying .

He vtterly destroyed the state of the most florishing Citie and common wealth of Florence , Apolog. his owne natiue countrie .

How great words , vtterly destroied , and , Confut. florishing Citie ? It was neuer more quiet , than it is now vnder the Duke . For by naturall reason vnder one certaine heade , peace is better maintained , then in number of families and factions , be they neuer so smal . And by experience they do feele , that they haue lesse stur and vprising , than they haue knowen : whereas vnto fourtie 〈◊〉 which they had before aboute the 〈◊〉 place , they haue not one as nowe .

All these were Popes , Apolog. all Peters suces●● , all most holy fathers : whose seueral ●●oordes we must take to be as good as 〈◊〉 Ghospels .

Who told ye so ? Con. 184 Wher find ye it so ? Who 〈◊〉 taught you to lie so ? For not only the ●opes words , but also his priuat writings 〈◊〉 taken to be subiect vnto errours and ●gnorance , as other mens doings are : but ●ot his definitiue sentence vpon any ma●●er to be generallie beleued .

The selfe same men which haue led theyr 〈◊〉 at Rome , Apolog. in the holy city , in the face of the most holy father , who also were able to se 〈◊〉 theyr secrets , & at no time departed from 〈◊〉 catholike faith : as for example , Laurentius ●alla , Marcilius Patauinus , Frauncis ●etrarke , Hierom Sauanorola , Abbote 〈◊〉 ●oachim , Baptist of Mantua , & before al ●hese Bernard the Abbat , haue many a time & much complained of it , geauing the world 〈◊〉 ●lso somtime to vnderstand , that the Bi●hop of Rome him selfe , by your leaue , 〈◊〉 verie Antichriste .

Fyue lyes I will note at the leaste 〈◊〉 this one sentence . Confut. 207.

First , of al these whom ye name , no one 〈◊〉 did lead his lyfe in Rome , but Laurence Valla.

Secondly , they were not well able to see the Popes secretes whiche lyued 〈◊〉 in the Citie with him familiarly .

Thirdly , concerning your lye , that 〈◊〉 no tyme they departed from the Catholike faith : Laurentius Valla was 〈◊〉 fangled , Marcilius was a plain heretike ▪ Abbate Ioachim vttered heresie , which was condemned , but submitting himsel● to the Catholike Churche , he escaped fo● his owne person .

Fourthely , of the faultes of Rome , 〈◊〉 Bernard hath complained , but neuer 〈◊〉 the Popes tyranny , and barbarous pryde●

Fifthely , it was the speciall grace 〈◊〉 Luther , and the blindnes or follie of th● foresaid persons , to geue you to vnde●stand that the Pope should be very An●tichrist . For the making of which lye , 〈◊〉〈◊〉 wil neuer so much aske our leaue , we haue no such Authoritie to geue it vnto ●ou , and therefore I praie you quiet your selues , and neuer trouble vs more hereafter with such requestes .

We , Apolog. saieth Hosius , wil bid away with 〈◊〉 same scriptures , &c. It behoueth not 〈◊〉 man to be expert in the law & scripture , 〈◊〉 to be taught of God . It is but lost about that a man bestoweth vpon the scriptures . For the scripture is a creature & ● bare letter . This is Hosius saieing .

This is not Hosius saying . Conf. 21● Nay , of set purpose he reherseth it for an heresie : to declare how the new Ghospellers of this 〈◊〉 , haue proceeded still from naught to worse , and are now come some of them , to such a diuine spritishnes , that they contemne the studie of the Scriptures as a carnall thing and vnprofitable , and will not haue anie man vse the testimonie of them .

But God forbid ( saieth Hosius ) that we should euer so much as think these things , Hosius de expr . ver. Dei . which belong not to a Christian man . For we hold with S. Hilarius who iudged heresie to come from the vnderstanding , not from the scripture Seeing therefore that Hosius hath so expresselie declared him selfe , to 〈◊〉 from Zwenkefeldius heresie , which● woulde not haue the Scripture to be 〈◊〉 credite , what impudencie is it , so bold●● lie to chardge him with it , as thoug● it were his opinion , to haue the 〈◊〉 put away .

Yet this , so greate impudencie , 〈◊〉 howe it shall be maintained ? For allthough it be perceiued , of the Authors 〈◊〉 the Apologie , that Hosius wil sone 〈◊〉 against them , and saie , that they doe 〈◊〉 wronge : yet rather than they will 〈◊〉 seeme to eate theyr woorde , and to 〈◊〉 vnable to defende that , Note the stomach . whiche 〈◊〉 had once sayed in the firste edition 〈◊〉 the Apologie , they increase theyr 〈◊〉 and shame in the second edition . 〈◊〉 whereas in conscience , they should haue cried Hosius mercie , and 〈◊〉 confessed theyr mistaking of him ( which had bene a token of good natures , and such as especially should be in the professours of an holy Ghospel ) yet in theyr seconde Edition and further deliberation vppon the mater , they not only doe not reuoke theyr slaunder , but make Argumentes to defende it .

And firste , to that whiche Hosius mighte truelie saie vnto them , that they doe hym wronge , and that the woordes whiche they obiecte againste hym , are not hys owne woordes , but the woordes of the Heretike Zwenkefeldius : they aunswere .

But howe then , Apolog. In the second edition . if Zwenkefeldius make Exclamations on the other syde and saye , that the same verie woordes are not hys , but Hosius owne wordes ? Confut.

If he will be so shamelesse , as to obiecte that vnto Hosius , as Hosius owne , for whiche Hosius expressely reproueth him : Or if he wil be so folish as to professe that opinion , whiche he wil put await from himself , when he is chalenged of it , he is a meete witnes for the Apologie . But howe is it likely and probable , that Zwenkefeldius might so doe ? It foloweth .

For tel me , Apolog. where hath Zwenkfeldius euer writen them .

What if so much be not tolde you , Confut. will it folowe , that because you knowe not , where to finde them in Zwengelfeldius , therefore they are not in him at all ? Or because it is not told you wher Zwenkfeldius hath writen them , therfore Hosius doth alow them ? For herein is the pointe , whether Hosius aloweth them for his owne wordes , or no.

Or if he haue writen them , Apolog. & Hosius haue iudged the same to be wicked , why hath not Hosius spoken so much as one word to confute them ?

By like reason you might make S. Augustine a greate heretike , because in 〈◊〉 booke ad Quoduultdeum , he 〈◊〉 shortlye the heresies that were in 〈◊〉 world , and doth not also confute them 〈◊〉 he telleth them . But the cause of Hosius fact is euident , for that his principal purpose in that place , was to shew the heretikes procedinges , and not to tary about the confuting of theyr sayinges . And whereas he compteth Zwenkfeldius an vptars̄t heretike for those foresayd wordes , is it not manifest , that he him selfe hath no lyking of those woordes ? Verelie although Hosius in noting Zwenkfeldius for those wordes , hath not straitewaies aunswered his argumentes : yet he sufficiently proueth himself to be of a contrarie opinion , and thereby aunswereth your fonde obiection , by whiche your would seeme to make Hosius a Zwenkefeldian , in that he iudged Zwenkfeldius wordes to be wicked , and yet spake not so much as one worde to confute them . As though it were not to speake some word at the least against a position , to saie no more but this of it , that it is an heresie . But see what foloweth in the Apologie .

Howe so euer the matter goeth , Apolog. allthough Hosius peraduenture wyll not allowe those wordes , yet he doth not disalow the meaning of the wordes .

This , Confut. howe so euer the matter goeth , of which you speake , hath this sense in it , that there is no remedie , but you must , one way or other , make Hosius to be a Zuenckefeldian , least you should seeme to recant and reuoke that , which most vniustly and blindly ye haue layed vnto his charge .

And therefore , whereas it is most manifest , that Hosius aloweth not those heretical wordes , which he attributeth vnto Zuenkefeldius , and whereas ye can neuer purge your selues of the slaunder made vppon him in that behalfe : ye depart from the matter , neither prouing sufficiently your obiecton , neither confessing honestly that you haue mistaken him , but leauing it with a peraduenture Hosius wyll not allowe those wordes , ye procede to proue , that how so euer the matter goeth , Hosius disaloweth alloweth not the meanynge of those wordes .

In which poynt , ye discharge not you● honesties , but shew partly your fond inuention , in burdening your Adueruersarie with the sense of those wordes , the speaking or writing of which , ye can not proue against him , his open fact and denial standing to the contrarie : partly your wretched disposition , in mainteyning a lye by impudencie , as though neuer to confesse your fault , were the next way to be deliuered . I adde further , that ye be lesse sure of Hosius meaning , than of his speaking or writing . For wordes and letters are sensible , but the meaning without some externall signe ●ade , is not intelligible .

If therefore you will leaue to presse Hosius with the foresaied wordes , 〈◊〉 peraduenture he will disallowe 〈◊〉 should ye not much more haue 〈◊〉 your selues , from laying the 〈◊〉 of them vnto his charge ?

Except you be so folish , as to thinke , that he wil not put awaie from him the sense of those words , the very forme of which ye ghesse he wil disalowe .

But let vs see further how substantially ye wil proue Hosius to be of this mind that the Scriptures are to be reiected . It foloweth .

For wel nere in all controuersies . Apolog.

Your slaunder is to general : Confut. come to some special poynt or other .

And namely touching the vse of the holy communion vnder both kindes : Apolo . although the wordes of Christ be playne and euident , yet doth Dosius disdainefully reiecte them , as no better than cold and deade Elements .

What meane ye by , disdainfully reiect them ? Confut. Doth he scrape them out of his boke ? Doth he cal them , not worth a straw , as Luther calleth S. Ioannes epistle stramineam , a strawen epistle ? Doth he say that they are crepte into the text out of the margen , Beza ia Anno. in Luc. 22. as Beza reporteth ( like a blindebuzzarde ) the wordes of S. Lukes Ghospel , which shal be shed for you , to haue ben infarced ? What hath Hosius don to the texte of the Scripture , that ye shoud so lowdly obiecte it , that he doeth disdainefully reiecte them ? Bringe in your arguments , that they may be considered : And shew vs some euidence , that ye seeme not to light and slaunderous of your tongue .

There is no doubt , but Hosius and you , will not agree vppon the sense of many textes : but concerning the wordes them selues of the Ghospel , Hosius can not possibly reiecte them , being a Catholike . For in such cases he can doe nothing of him self , but must folow the Catholike church . And the Catholike Churche is so religious towardes Scripture , that as she hath receiued it , so she mainteineth and keepeth it still .

Note therefore this place ( gentle Reader ) and marke whether the Authours of the Apologie , haue either the habilitie to proue that , by which they haue defamed a right Catholike and Reuerend Bishoppe : Or the humilitie and honestie , to confesse theyr fault , and to aske forgeauenes for theyr obiecting of that which they are not hable to proue .

The Canonistes of this day , Apolog. for they● bellyes sake vse to say of the Pope , that for as much as he is Lord of al benefices , though he sel for mony Bishopriks , Monasteries , Priesthod , Spiritual promotions , and parteth with nothing frely : yet , because he compteth al his own , he c●n not commit simonie though he would neuer so fame .

How proue ye , that the Canonistes , Confut. 259. of this day , haue such a conclusion as you speke of ? The author of Summa angelica , or Theodoricus , whom ye name in the margen , for the profe of this mater , are dead many daies agoe , and serue not to proue , that the Canonists of this day now liuing , haue this or that opinion . Therfore I wil be so bolde as to charge you with one lye in accusing the Canonistes of this day .

An other lye shal be , that you slaunder them , to speake ( what soeuer they be of whom ye meane ) for their belies sake . For ( God knoweth ) al the lawiers which you euer haue seene or had to do withal , fare litle the better for the Popes table .

The thirde lie , ( and that moste notable ) is , that ye make them to conclude it absolutely and generallie of the Popes prerogatiue , which they meane but in a certaine case , and one certaine respecte onlie . For , the distinction and determination of this question , by the verie Summam Angelicam it selfe is , that concerninge suche punishementes and paines , as are sette vppon Symonie by the positiue Law , the Pope is not subiect vnto them . But for the other thinges , which are Symoniacal , and punishable by the Law of God : In ijs quae sunt Symoniaca de iure diuino , the Pope is not exempted from the fault and p●●ne due to it .

The Greeks haue neither priuate Masses , nor mangled Sacramentes , Apolog. nor purgatories , nor pardons .

An instance in anie one of these , u sufficient to proue you a lyer . And therefore to let passe Asia , Syria , Assyria , and Armenia , countries too far to goe vnto and see whether we say true or no : In Venis at this day , in the Greeke Church , the priest receiueth alone at the altar , which is ( by your interpretion ) to saie a priuate Masse : and of this you mai be fully perswaded , if ( because ye mistrust the Catholiks reporte , which haue seen it ) you wil but aske of the Reuerent Father Shire , or some of your owne Merchantes whiche haue trauailed thither , or send some letter of yours by theyr frendeship to anie false Christian , and faithful brother ther , to knowe whether you haue not spoken more , than you are able to proue .

We turne the scriptures into al tongues : Apolog. they scante suffer them to be had abroad in anie tongue .

Haue ye turned them yet into welsh and Irishe ? Confut. but for lieing vpon yourselfe I leaue you to your selfe .

Concerning the Catholikes , if your saying be true , who then maintaineth the Hebrue Readers of the old testament in Rome , the expounding the same in latin in euerie Catholike Vniuersitie , the open selling of Bibles , Hebrue , Greek and Latin● , in al Printers shoppes , the continual reading of Scriptures in Monasteryes , not only in open Church and secrete Celle , but euen in the Refectories , at diner and supper ? Who doe al this but Papistes ? Your lye therefore is verie notorious .

Peter verely whom the Pope hath oftence in hys mouth and more reuerently vseth to speake of , Apolog. then he doth of Ihesu Christe , dyd boldely stand against the holy Councell .

If ye loued , Con. 274 either God or man so trulie and iustly as ye would be thought to doe , it were impossible for you , so suspitiousely to interprete the honour geauen to the Seruant , to be a diminishing of the honor and reuerence due to his Master . For the charitie of God , the greater as it is in vs : so it maketh vs to reioyse stil more and more , the more that anie is praysed or remembred , whom he fauoureth . And to murmur , grudge , cast doune the heade , or make a lippe at it , when S. Peter , or any other of the glorious and blessed in Heauen , is dayly and reuerently spoken of : what is it els , but malitiously or blindelie to thinke , that S. Peter hath alreadie honour inough , or rather to much seruice done vnto him , and that God him selfe is like to fare the worse , if his Sainctes be continuallie magnified ?

On the other side , 1. Cor. ●● . concerning our neighbour , Charitie being patient gentill , not suspitious &c. howe might a man full of spirite ( excepte it be of the hotte sprite of Hel ) iudge by a mans reuerent speaking of S. Peter , that he would not speake , so reuerentelie of Ihesus Christe ?

Besides this , ye whiche lyue in England , and make suche reportes of the Pope , whose abode is in Rome , being neither of priuie chamber , nor householde , no● of the same Citie or Countrie with him : howe can ye ( by anie likelyhode ) be other then false lyers in iudging so particularlie of his ma●ers , vntill ye bringe the Authonr of this your saying : or light beleuers of tales , when ye haue named the Authours ?

Yet truly we do not despise councels , Apolog. assemblies and conferences of Bishops and learned men , neither haue we done that we haue done , altogeather without Bishopes , or without Councel . The mater hath ben treated in open Parleament , with long consultation , and before a notable Synode and Connocation .

Yeas , Con. 275. altogether without Bishops and without a Councel . For in that notable Parleament , the first of our Soueraigne Lady that now is Quene ( in which that was don for you that was done ) ye could haue no Bishops in the plurall number to stand for you : because ye had not so much as one in the Singular number .

Albeit afterward in dede one ye had , and he being deceaued or ouercummed did beare with the procedinges more proprely , then support them .

This is one . Now , as for the treating of the matter in open Parleament , it was so open , that your voices had no place in it . This is an other .

Thirdly , concerning the long consultation that was vsed , the Parleament began after Christmas , and without any greate arguing to or fro , the maydenbill ( as it was called ) of the Princes Supremacie was readye to haue passed aboute the beginning of Lent . Then stode one vp that spake against it , with such libertie that he was examined vpon it , and lost his owne libertie 30. dayes together , and with such truth and grauitie , that for so many daies after , the matter also of the Supremacie was suppressed . Yet about Easter , for the worde head , came in the word Gouernour . And so was the Supremacye admitted , when the Parleament so little thought of such a fetch , that an earnest fa●orer of the Gospel toke indignation at it , and saied , that if men were ashamed of the word it self head , they should also refuse the Supremacie it selfe which was imported by it . And cal you this a long consultation ? This is a third .

Last of all touching the notable Synod and conuocation , it put vp to the Parleament an expresse bil of information against your procedinges . So far of it was from helping you . This is the fourth greate lye , in this one little sentence of yours .

From which fowre , if ye wil defende your selues , by referring your meaning , not to the first Parleament of the first yeare of Quene Elizabeth ( in which ye were Sirs out of office ) but vnto the other that folowed ( the Catholike Bishops now being safely kept in prison ) then as ye debate the poyse of your former 〈…〉 for al that ye doe augment 〈…〉 your foly . For your matt●●● 〈…〉 to passe for you , in the first Parleament , in which none of you were present , though the Parleament folowing , had ben open the consultation long , the conuocation notable ( albeit this might be proued to be an open , longe and notable lye ) yet note , I praie you , the folie and lie which in this sentence goe togeather . For your maters being don to your hands , in the first Parleament , where no place was made for you : it is a verie lye to saie : We haue not done , that we haue done , altogeather without Bishoppes . And the first Parleament seruing your purpose so fullie , that ye needed not an other , what wisedome was it to haue a longe consultation and notable Synode vppon that ; whiche was before concluded for you , and by you was not to be remoued , for all your notable conuocation ?

Continuallie for the space of fyue hundred yeares , Apolog. the Emperour alone appointed the Ecclesiastical assemblies .

Where beginne you to recken ? Con. 311. Three hundred yeares af●tr Christ , there was no Emperour in the world , openlie professing him selfe a Christian : and yet Ecclesiasticall assemblies were apointed and kepte in Hierusalem by the Apostles , In Palestina when Victor was Pope , At Rome by Fabian &c. Then if ye will begyn at Constantin the first , and take the fyue hundre yeares folowing , howe make you it true ? For the first Councel of Nice it self , was called by Syluester the Pope .

Temporall men subscribe and geaue sentence , Apolog. in generall Councels .

Subscribing we graunt : Con. 318. geauing of sentence we vtterly denie , and you can neuer saue it from a lye . Excepte by such a figure as shal make two diuerse thinges in degree and perfection , to be all one with you , and that it is as lawful to geue sentence in a mater , as to subscribe to it , after it is geauen .

The Popes would nedes make all the realme of England tributary to them , Apolo . and tracted thence yerely most vniust & wrongful taxtes . So deare cost vs the frindeship of the Citie of Rome .

Was the Realme so vnable to resiste him , that you may truely s●ie , the popes would nedes haue it so ? Through your ouer much study on the boke of the Lord , ye may be perdoned , for not knowing the historie of our Realme : which if you will take the leasure to consider , will teache you , that the taxes or Peterpence of which you speake ( or els ye must perdone me , if I vnderstand you not ) were so frely geuen by Kinge Ihon to the Popes for euermore : that excepte his conscience had moued him vnto it , there was no force of armes , nor will in the Pope , to make him of necessitie to doe it .

And because you make it a faulte as it were general of all Popes , that needes they will haue taxes of you : remember Paulus the fourth his dealing with you , at the comming of Quene Marie to her raigne : at which tyme hauing Princes on his side , and by his owne strength some what able to he●pe forward , yet he neither required Peterpence ( a small matter in respect of our Realme , or his charges vppon Christendome ) neither absolute restoring of religious houses to the former and laufull holders of them , a great matter without all controuersie , yet such as he might haue brought to passe if Popes were the men , as you make them to be . Wherby it appeareth , that although ye might freely make lyes vpon the Ambition and couetis● of Popes in olde time : yet these Popes which of late haue in dede bene so much able , and yet through charitie so litle willing to take of you , do in all mens eyes and iudgments , conuince you of lying and slaunderous tonges .

Men folowing God his bidding , Apolog. of theyr owne free wil resorted vnto the doctrine of Iesus Christ .

As for example , Con. 345 in our owne countrie : In King Harry the viij . dayes , who so would not haue abandoned the Authoritie of the Bishop of Rome , should be hanged , drawen , and quartered . To haue but the name of a Pope in a matins boke was treason , permitting men to praye to S. Gregory which was a moste holy Pope , and punishing them for hauing that name Pope standing by him in their kalender &c.

In king Edwarde his tyme , the procedinges increasing , it was punishable to heare Masse , &c. And at this present , it is so odious and dangerous , not to come vnto your Ghospel , that your selues prouoking the Catholikes to answer you ▪ or alowing the bragging manlynes of such a challenger : yet now when answers are prouided for you , ye stoppe by all feare that ye can make , first that none be brought in , and afterwards that none be readen , vpon paine of the commissioners dispeasure . And , were not the iudgement of our Princesse greater , than to suffer suche an absurditie , as that you shoulde prouoke and crake , when none is willing to fight , and when the enemie is comming forwarde , then call vppon the temporall Arme to driue him backe , that you might triumphe in your maner without the victory , surely had not the goodnes of our Princesse misliked this cowardnes , ye had by this tyme made it death , to haue any booke of the Papistes making in Louane . And call you this , Men of theyr owne wil to resorte to your doctrine ?

And for our parts truly we haue sought hereby neither glory , Apolog. nor wealth , norpleasure , nor ease : for ther is plentie of al these thinges with our aduersaries .

It is harde to truste you , Con. 34● . especiallie whee as this nedelesse saying ( that you haue not sought for glory ) proueth that you are content to be thought to haue the contempte of glorie : which is but a base and sory argument of humilitie . As for your desire of wealth , although Luther , the man reised of God , had not for couetise preached against pardons , and if Peter Martir ( chaynging his opinion with whiche he came to Oxforth , and from his Lutheranisme turning himself to Zuinglianisme for loue of so sweete a liuing did not make it probable ( as he sayed vnto Iulius his man after a greate feast made to him in Oxford , O Iuli , bonum est nos hîc esse , O Iuly , it is good being here ) And although your miserable misery and banishment in which you were at Geneua , that in condition the popish Religion might be displaced , you woulde be content to conforme your selues to the Princes Religion and orders , which ( in the article of supremacie ) Caluin your master coulde not abide , And although your selling of stone , lead , slat &c. your woodsales , your bying of Copyholds , your begging of mony and wheat toward household , your breeding of swyne with the ouer sight of the Superintendent himself in that kinde of cattell : although ( I say ) all these matters might make it not vncredible , that you had the desire of wealth in your pouerty , which be so greedie thereof yet dayly stil in your plentie : yet because in these foresayd poyntes the fault may be layed not vpon religion , but on the persons professing it , I shall therefore bid you consider one principall end and conclusion of your Gospell , to see thereby whether ye seeke not for ease and pleasure , or ( if your selues be better disposed ) whether the course of your Religion doth not drawe men to that affection .

For running out of Cloysters , breaking the vowes of pouertie , of obedience , of chastitie , no rising at midnight , short prayer , contempt of prescribed fastings , yoking of Priestes and their women togeather &c. and such an Apprehension of Christes merites by Faith , as maketh the handes to let goe all meddling with good workes &c. these being the effects of your religion , and part of the greatest poyntes of your profession : let it now be iudged , whether these men saie true or no , in glorying that they seke not ease and pleasure , except you will say , ye be not inclined after the wayes of your owne religion .

The 8. Chapiter conteining the Rhetoricall , Slylie , and Frumping lies .

We can not away in our Churches with the shewes , Apolog. and sales , and byeing , and selling of Masses .

AS who shoulde saie , Con. 111. we your Aduersaries doe abide it . No verelie , we no more alowe the sellinge of Masses , than the Inceste of the renegate Friers and Sisters : And yet there haue ben in the Catholike Church Religiouse personnes so fowlie disposed . As doeth appeare by the chiefe Apostles of the new Ghospell , Luther , Oecolampadius , Peter Martir , Bale , Barc●let , Barlowe , Scorie &c. Which departed out of the Churche on theyr owne heade and perill , and liued not well in the Churche whyles they were interteined in it . And so , although some faithlesse and wretched fellowes , might be proued to haue sold theyr Masses in the Churche : that conuinceth them to be naught , and not that the Churche consenteth vnto it .

We verelye , Apolog. because we knowe the shedding of Christe hys Bloud vppon the Crosse to be the onelie Sacrifice , are well content with it alone , and looke for none other . And forasmuche as yt was to be offered but once , we commaund it not to be renewed againe .

You woulde ( I perceaue ) haue the Catholikes compted exceading couetous and insatiable , Conf. 123. as thoughe they shoulde thinke the shedding of Christe his Bloud vppon the Crosse to be vnsufficiente to saluation .

But yet howe thinke you ? Notwithstanding ye are so well content , ( as ye saye ) with Christe his Passion alone : doe ye not thinke it necessarie for you , to obey the Churche , to obey your Prince , to absteine from lying , from adultery , from Simonie & c ? If besides the passion of Christ , you must also keepe the Commaundementes , and doe as manie good workes as ye may , then as you are content , so are we : And you are no wiser ( by this rekening ) than other poore folkes are .

But , if Christ his Passion doth so content you , that ye seeke not to suffer also with him , after your degree , in a certaine proportion : then doth it plainlie appeare , that you are quickly satisfied . And in such sorte to be well content , is for suche as neuer thincke to ascend after Christ , and are verie vnlike vnto him .

Why hath he hys Legates ( as much to saie as moste suttle spyes ) lying in wayte in all Kinges Courtes , Apolog. Councelles and priuie chambres ? Why doth he , when he lyst , sette Christian Princes one against an other , And , at his owne pleasure , trouble the whole world with debate and discord ?

First , Con. 178 let it be proued , that the Pope doth it , and then afterwardes aske the cause why ? And consider also , whether it becommeth the Church of England , that such an Apologie should goe furth in the name of it , as meddleth with the legats , whom other Princes of Christendome doe interteyne ? And which obiecteth to a person of much Authoritie , at the least , such an heyg●nous and shamefull crime , as , that at his plesure he should trouble the whole world . If the Pope were no more quiet and peaceable , than ye make him : had England all this while continued in schisme and heresie , and not ben made a praye to some that would haue taken it ?

What is he that commaundeth the Emperour to goe by him at his horse bridle , Apolog. & the Frenche King to hold his stirope ?

Some Pope by lykelihode of your owne making . Con. 185. For the Catholiks know of none such at al. Yea , Paulu● Iouius . when Charles the fifthe , of worthie memorie , would haue helde Pope Clements stirope , he was not suffered so to doe , the Popes modestie ouer comming the Emperours deuotion .

Why doe they hyde , Apolog. why doe they keepe vnder , the Ghospell , which Christ woulde haue preached alowde from the house toppe ?

We beleue , Con. 222. it is not hydden , that which is openlie readen in the Churche , Catholikelie expounded in Vniuersities , Ordinarelie readen in Religiouse houses , And commonlie solde in Hebrue , Greeke , and Latine , to all that will studie it . This lye is dilated by the Authours of the Apologie . Fo. 264. this also is emong the flatte lyes .

Why doe they not proue theyr Religion , Apolog. by the examples of the Primitiue Churche , and by the Fathers , and Councels of old tymes ?

Our bookes doe aunswer for vs , Conf. 231. that this is a lye .

Why be they afrayd to take a paterne , Apolog. of the Apostles and old Fathers ?

We be neuer afraied , Con. 20● but when we come to such heretikes , as wil not admit the old Fathers , nor theyr interpretations vppon the Apostles : then in deede we alleage not so thicke theyr Testimonies , whose Authorities the loftie and prowde mindes , doe easelie contemne .

Why dyd Iohn , Apolog. 1. Clement , a Countrie man of ours , 2. but fewe yeares paste , 3. in the presens of certaine honest men and of good credite , 4. teare and 5. caste into the fyere , certaine leaues of Theodorete the moste , 6. Auncient Father and a , 7. Greeke Bishoppe , wherein , he playnlie , 8. and euidentlie taughte , that the nature of Bread in the Communion was not chaynged , abolyshed , or brought to nothinge . And thys dyd he of , 9. purpose , bycause he thought , 10. there was no other copy thereof to be found .

Ye haue done well so particularlie to set furth this mater , Con. 231. declaring by manie circumstances , that Doctour Clement shoulde Teare , and Caste into the fier , certaine leaues , of such an Author , of such a mater , before men of good credite , and for suche a purpose and 〈◊〉 ▪ as you specifie . And nowe , as though the mater needed no further 〈…〉 aske , why Iohn Clement a Coun●rieman of yours dyd so ?

But I will tel you firste , 〈◊〉 he dyd not so . For , as him selfe hath 〈◊〉 me and other asking this verie qu●stion of him , that you appose vs withall , he neuer had anie parte of that booke in Greeke or in Latine in written hande : And therefore could not wel burne that which he neuer had . Nowe , if the honest men that you speke of , did not only se him cast certeine leaues into the fier , but did reade also , the contentes of those leaues before they were cast into the fier , and vnderstoode vpon what intent D. Clement dyd it &c. name them that they maie be knowen for theyr honestie .

When they did of late put in print , Apolog. the auncient Father Origenes worke vp on the Ghospel of Iohn , why left they quite out , the who●e sixte chapiter , wherein it is lykely , yea rather of verie suerty , that the 〈…〉 , had writen many thinges con●●rning the Sacrament of the holy Communion contrarie to these mens myndes ?

We could not leaue that Chapiter out , Con. 233. which was not founde in anie Copy . But if you can bring anie such chapiter furth , ye shal make it lykely and probable , that we are to blame for not putting it in . And , if you can not , you proue your selfe to be verie suspitiouse and slaunderouse , which reproue the Catholikes , for not putting that in , which is not , as farre as we or you doe hitherto know , to be found in any place extant . Yet you haue suche a grace , as in speaking , so also in reading without booke , that you further saie it to be , not onlie lykelie , but rather of verie suertie , that such and such things should be in that place of Origen , which yet you neuer sawe in al your lyfe , that you might be able to reporte anie thing of it .

Which of al the Fathers haue at an●e time called you by the name , Apolog. of the highest Prelate , the vniuersall Bishoppe , or the head of the Churche ?

S. Hierome ad Damasum : Con. 247 The Councel of Chalcedon ▪ and Victor de persequutione Vandalica these haue geauen the for sayd titles vnto the Bishoop of Rome .

Which of them euer sayd , that both the swordes were committed to you ? Apolog.

S. Bernard saiteth it , lib. 4. de consideratione ad Eugenium . Con. 247

Whiche of them euer sayed , that you haue an Authority to cal Councels ? Apolog.

There folowe a broune dosen moe of such which of them ? Con. 248 Which either nede no aunswer , because the Catholik Church hath no suche Articles , as you aske question of , Or because it is not bound to answer euerie gentleman controllers busie questions , although it be able , either by expresse Authoritie , or els by necessarie consequence to declare good and sufficient cause and reason for euery thing that it aloweth . But touching this present question , Socrates Hist. Tripart . lib. 4. ca. 9. doth plainely testifie against you .

What one error haue they amended ? From what kind of Idolatry haue they reclaimed the people ? Apolog.

Here is a suspicion reised of more than one error , Con. 291. and of more than one kind of Idolatry to be in the church , and ther is no probatiō annexed to proue that which is sayd . But herein your blindnes and ignorance , doth vtter it self , that ye know not what is truth , and right worshipping of God , which obiect errors and Idolatry to th' church of God , in which church the techer of truth th' holy Ghost , Ioan. 14● is alwaies president , and shal be vnto the worlds end .

Again , if you consider , what hath ben don of late in general councels , and what is don daily both by preching , and writing against euil life and heresy , you can not iustly find fault with the heades of the Churche , as though they had no regard what the people did beleue and folowe .

Then further I say , if you willo biect ignorance vnto the Catholykes that , they knowe not what is true Religion : then doth it remaine , that you tel your owne mindes , and answer theyr Confutations and Replies . Before which tyme to insulte vpon them and to crowe out a lowde , from what kinde of Idolatrie haue they reclaimed the people ? is , to triumphe before the victorie , and to goe merelie awaie with the sentence , whiles the mater is a hearing yet in the consistorie .

But if you obiecte this crime to the Catholikes , that they knowe wel inough what Idolatrie is , and see the kindes of it , and yet reclaime the people from no kind thereof : this trulie is so heighnous and so vile a fault , that ye shoulde haue euidentlie proued it , before ye had so artificiallie concluded it .

For a plaine answere to whiche fowle suspition , let any reasonable man be iudge , whether it be lykelie and possible , that they which with great paines and daunger of bodie , haue prouided , verie Idolatours in deede , to be conuerted vnto our faith , would wittingly suffer an Idolatry to be at home before theyr eies , and yet not take a litle paine to open theyr mouth but once against it . The Franciscans , and they of the societie of Ihesu , haue and d●e take exceding greate paines about the barbarous people in the East and Weast India , and with hazard of theyr temporal lyfe , they venter to bring the Infidels , to the knowledge of the life euerlasting . Therefore surely it is bysides al reason and likelyhod , that of so manie of the same order and profession , as liue here in Europe emong vs , no one should be found so honest , so hardy , or so faithful , as to reclaime the people from theyr Idolatrie , if anie were in them at all .

Why doe they so vncourteously or with such spite , Apolog. leaue Princes out , & as though they were not either Christen men , or els could not iudge , will not haue them made acquainted with the cause of Christian Religion , nor vnderstand the State of theyr owne Churches ?

And why doe you so openly and so licentiously r●yse a fowle suspition , Con. 297 against the Cleargie , where no cause is ? The temporal princes , are solemly warned before , of the general councel , when so●uer it is to be kept . Theyr Legats haue honorable and meete places for them , in the Cou●cel house , that they may not be ignorant of that which is done , in debating and examining the cause of religion : They be humbly and hartly thanked , for theyr helpes and assistance and presence , made in the cause of the Churche : They be sent home with peace : And say you , that princes are so lefte out , as though they were no Christen men , whose Embassadours you maie vnderstand to be interteyned and vsed so honourably ?

What ys the Pope , Apolog. I praie you , at this daye , other than A Monarche , Or A Prince ? Or what be the Cardinals , who must be none other nowe , but princes and Kinges Sonnes ?

We neuer hearde anie wyse man call Con. 299 the Pope A Monarche . But a Prince he is in deede , either as the worde Prince maie signifie the Chiefe in all Priestelie function , either as it signifieth a man so indued with Temporalties , that he maie worthely be a Kinges felow .

But saie you , what other is he than a Monarche , or a Prince ? As who shoulde thinke , that he sate imperiallie vnder his clothe of Estate , and hearde Embassadours out of all quarters of the world , and gaue kingdomes or toke them awaie at his pleasure , and after such maters of weight dispatched , then that he went to hunting , hauking , plaieing , daunsing , feasting , &c. as worldely Princes doe . For such a thing do the common people imagine a Monarche or prince to be , one that ruleth al , and liueth in al pleasure .

That you therfore may be corrected of your lie , and the simple Reader of his error , I say that the Pope is no Monarche at al. And I confesse boldly , that he is a Prince , by reason of the Temporall , and greate Iurisdiction which he hath ouer S. Peters patrimonies , but as Pius the fifthe that now liueth , did answer agreably to his holines , and wisdom , Licet Princeps sum , antiquius tamen Pastoris quàm principis nomen agnosco : so ( to say the like in English ) I geue you to vnderstand , that although the Pope be a prince , yet he acknowledgeth and taketh , the office of a Pastor to be the more former and principal with him , than the Office of a Prince .

By this office then of a pastour , he gouerneth , and f●deth his flocke : he sendeth non residents , home to theyr cure : he apointeth out Preachers and Bishopes for the new found lands : he calleth Councels , endeth Councels when it shal please him he goeth in visitation ( as this last yere he did through althe parish churches of Rome ) he excommunicateth such as wil not repent ( as he doth Courtesanes , expelling them bodyly also out of the Citie ) he succoureth such as wil conuerte ( for which purpose , his predecessor Pius the fourth of blessed memorie , built a peculiar Cloister or house ) he preacheth vnto his flocke , ( as he did thrise the last yere , first in S. Peters Churche , after that in our Ladie Churche , which is called Maria Maior , thyrdly in S. Iohn Laterane ) he ministreth the Sacramentes , he confirmeth Bishopes , he bindeth , he looseth , he chargeth , he dispenseth , and by vertue of his Authoritie and Priestehoode , he expelleth the dyuels themselues out of the possessed bodies .

Nowe if Princes and Monarches haue the Office and power to doe these spirituall functions , whiche I haue short●lie and in parte noted : then shall they also be holie Fathers , and take vnto them the title of Supreamehead vnder God in earth . But if no man be so foolishe as to holde it , that a Prince is a Priest : then are you answered , that the Pope at this daie is some other thinge than a Monarche or a prince . And so we praie you to be content , and not to sue vnto vs for aunswer of that , whiche is in plaine sight , so euident against al truthe .

As for Cardinalles , who ( you say ) must be none other now but Princes and kinges sonnes doe ye thinke , that of Princes and Kinges Sonnes , one maie loke for no other thing , but wildnes youthfulnes and ignorance ? Cardinal Pole , the Cardinall of Loreine , Hercules Gonzaga , Gaspar Contarenus , Fregosius : Nauagerus These I trow ( if any be ) are the ●ardinalls whom you wil number emong the Sonnes of kinges and princes . And what thinke you of them , or what shal ye find in them ? Shal ye not find euerie one of them more notable and famous for theyr learning and vertue , than for theyr familie and Parentage ?

If ye thinke then , that the Princes Sonnes that are made Cardinalles , are nothing els but vnlerned Courteours , you shall shewe your selues to be verie simple Scholars , whiche canne iudge no better of the foresaied Cardinalles . On the other side , if ye confesse them to haue bene , and yet to be men verie wyse and learned : then maie ye mistruste your wittes and iudgement , in obiectinge that , as an Infamie to the See of Rome , that the Noble men whiche th●re are Cardinalles , are Princes Sonnes . Whereas the same be greate Diuines also and Doctours .

But it greiueth you , that Cardinalles muste be none other now , but Princes and Kinges Sonnes . There is no muste in the mater : For the pooreste of you all , if his pouertie consisted in byrthe onelie , and not in witte and honestie , he might be not onlie a Cardidinall , but also A Pope . Lyke as of Adrianus the sixthe , we not onelie reade , that he was borne at ●ltreicht● , of verie poore Father and Mother : but also we heare of the Auncient in Louane , that he liued here by begging very much at the beginning .

But ye affecte not to be Popes : Cardinals perchaunce ye could lyke to be , if that letted it not , that Cardinals must be none other now , but princes and kings Sonnes . As who should say , that no man knoweth , that Hosius , Seripando , Amulio , Sirlettus , and he de ara Coeli in Rome , are Cardinals by authority , and meane mens Sonnes by natiuitie .

But to conclude , it appeareth that you are very base borne childerne , whiche so beggarlie and ignorantly talke of maters out of your knowledge , and woulde seeme to haue no litle intelligence of the state of the court of Rome , of which ye so speke as pedlars , that make discourses in Alehouses of Reformation in Religion , and war or peace betwen Princes , and not as graue men , whiche shoulde be sure firste of that whiche they saie , especiallie when they speake in the name ( as it were ) of A whole Realme or Countrie .

The 9. Chapiter , Of an impudent and desperate maner of lying , which may well be called , facing of a Lye .

As for those thinges which by them haue bene layed against vs , Apolog. in parte they be manifestly false and condemned so by theyr owne iudgementes whych spake them .

SHewe , Con. 10. where , when , and by whom .

If they perchaunce will not see that , Apolog. which they see in deede , but rather will withstand the knowen truth .

You doe well to adde ( perchaunce ) and yet you be to suspicious without very good argument , Conf. 19. to thinke that anie Catholike will withstand the knowen truth .

Lorde God thou knowest , Apolo . that our Aduersaries were the verie foes to the Gospel , and enemies to Christes crosse : who so wittingly & willingly did obstiuately despise Gods commaundements .

In this you haue done politikely , Con. 151. to appeale to the knowledge of God , with Lord God thou knowest . For in the iudgement of men , which knowe not what is within an others breast , except it be vttered by some external signe , it is impossible , that you should with any reason obiect it vnto vs : that wittingly and willingly and obstinately we despise Gods commaundements , hauing no word or writing of ours , by which ye are hable to shew it . And if you haue any , let that rather be brought foorth , than a naked slaunder onely exhibited , without any confirmation or likelyhode .

Our enemies doe see , Apolog. and can not denie , but we euer in all our wordes and writings haue diligently put the people in mynde of their duetie , to obeie their Princes and Magistrates , yea though they be wicked .

If we can not denie it , Conf. 175. howe is it , that we doe denie it ? Yea rather howe could we denie that , which is to be sene so openly ? Are you only straungers in the affaires of the newe Ghospel , and doe ye not knowe , howe it hath proceded hytherto ?

Tel me , I pray you , whose counsell the Duke of Saxonie and the Lantgraue of Hesse did followe , when they stoode in Armes against theyr laufull Emperour Charles the fifth ?

Of what Ghospell was Luther , when he wrote , that the Emperour and Catholike Princes were proditores scelesti , vanique nebulones , traitours , wicked men and vaine knaues ?

How came the Caluinists by Geneua , a denne nowe of the Gospellers , and vnto what Prince should it be subiect , if right and conscience could preuaile emong them ?

By whom was Pultrone chosen vnto that ministery , to kyl the Duke of Guise , the chief Captaine of the French King ? Was not Beza the preacher , one of them that promoted him to that office ?

And to be short , were your eares only not , those thinges which they bost they haue &c. and though they haue a desire rather to dissemble : yet they them selues are not ignorant thereof , yea & somtime also they let not to confesse it openly .

See , Con. 252. how deuoutly these felowes can make lies . They talke with God about the matter , and they comfort themselues with this ( I trow ) that he yet is their witnes , that we haue not Antiquitie , Vniuersalitie and Consent , which we say we haue . And it foloweth , that we our selues are not ignorant hereof , but the proof hereof ( as I suppose ) is to be referred to the knouledge of the good Lord only . For concerning the knowledge of men , wheras it is manifest by al our doings and writings , that we haue those three things for vs , Antiquitie , Vniuersalitie , Consent , and that against al our aduersaries we proue , that these three be so with vs that they are not with them : it is vnreasonably and impudently set furth in print , where he that will may iudge of it , that we should be of any other minde , than can be proued by euidence of some externall signes .

We are come to that Church , Apolog. wherin they themselues can not denie ( if they will say truely , and as thei think in their owne conscience ) but all thinges be gouerned purely and reuerently , and as much as we possibly could , very nere to the order vsed in the olde tyme .

Here againe our owne conscience is brought furth against vs , Conf. 269 as though thei did see by their sprite , what we thinke in wardly : though we outwardly shew all signes to the contrary . Many Catholikes liue out of their Countrie , other many lye in prison within their Country , some write whole bookes against the procedings , And al ( I thinke ) doe speake against them , when they may do it without daunger of displeasure . What should we doe more , to declare that the newe Gospel is damnable ? Yet al this notwithstanding we thinke in our conscience ( say the Authors of the Apology ) that al thinges be gouerned purely and reuerently emong them &c. Haue they any honesty , which set such faces vpon maters ?

Let vs see in al that while ( of the first syxe moneths in which the Councel sate at Trente ) of so many , Apolog. so manifest , so often confessed of them , and so euident errors , what one errorhaue they amended ?

But what are they first , Con. 291. that we may knowe them ?

These men vse of course , Apolog. to denie all thinges , be they neuer so cleere : yea , the very same , which they presently see and beholde with theyr owne eyes .

This lye is of the same sute with his foresaied felowes , Conf. 317. because it layeth such thinges to our charge , as our doeinges proue to be most false and incredible . For , al the Scriptures we haue receiued , and excepte we had commended them , no protestant could euer haue trusted them . The old Councels and Fathers we more esteme than Protestantes doe , we refuse no laufull testimonie of any age . That which we see with our eyes we do neuer deny , though we vnderstand such thinges as come vnder our senses , otherwise than the heretikes doe .

To whom therefore may I compare these Aduersaries , which wil make vs beleue , that we see well inough that , which we do deny , and sometimes denie that , which we do see . I thinke they are disposed only to make sporte , and so to plaie in maters of religion , like as idel spenders of theyr wit and time doe , in the deuising of mad mery games . For when halfe a dosen such are agreed togeather , one of them ( for example ) laieth handes vpon a quiet man that passeth by : And whyle the innocent looketh backe vpon him , in commeth an other that helpeth to holde him , so fast , as though it should be for the kings auantage , to haue such a one made sure . With that , he that without cause is so apprehended , wondreth at the matter and asketh what they meane and stretcheth his power to break away from them . But he beginneth no soner to resist , but straitwaies they cry , helpe Sirs , helpe for the Lordes sake , this felow is mad : see how his colour chaungeth , see how he panteth &c. And with that , the rest of the brotherhoode sore moued with bitter compassion , make in to him , and for lacke of other sprites , there they possesse him , and holde him , and crie vnto him , and kepe such a sturre about him , as is able to bring many a man halfe out of his wittes , and to perswade with other that stande by and consider the thing , that vndoutedly the felow that suffreth the violence is mad , and not that they , which goe so sadly and constantly to the holding of him , should be any thing madde .

After which sorte if the Authors of the Apologie haue concluded to cry out vpon vs , that we can not denie , that , we knowe in our owne conscience , that , we knowe for a truth , such and such thinges as we lay against them , to be false , and if they will needes enforce it vpon vs , that we can not deny , but all thinges are gouerned purely and reuerently amonge them , what remedy but patience , and to suffer them to cary vs into Bedlem with so many holy and learned men our forefathers , as already they haue condemned , if they will not be answered with our open confession in worde and deede ? But if this be vnreasonably done of them , to burden vs with such a Conscience as can not be gathered of any our external acte : Iudge thou Indifferent Reader , whether this be not properly facing of a lye .

The 10. Chapiter , conteining the Problematicall or Hypotheticall lyes , with , how then , what ifs , and put case . Not so impudent and open faced as other , but not vnworthy to be noted , and no lesse shameful than the worst of all .

But , I put case , Apolog. an Idoll be set vp in the Church of God . And the same desolation , which Christ prophesied to come , stand openly in the holy place .

It should not long continue , Con. 192. I beleue , to graunt your case . For when Antichrist him selfe shal come , he shal be quickelie destroied , and neuer haue any successour openlie to syt in his Chaire after him .

What if some theefe or Pirate inuade and possesse Noes Arke ? Apolog.

I thinke the Arke woulde sinke . Conf. 192 And whereas God him self keepeth the Arke his Church , and prouideth it to be a place of safety in which the iuste seed shall be preserued : to let a Pirate and Theefe to possesse the Arke , were as muche to graunt , as to lette there be no honestie , no Faith , no laufull Authoritie in the Church : Yea it is as much to saie , as , I put the case there were no God .

Howe then if I call furthe those for witnesses , Apolo . whom them selues haue vsed to honour ? What if I saie , that Adriane the Bishop of Rome did frankly confesse , that all those myscheefes braste out first fr●● the hygh throne of the Pope ?

Mary ye lie , Con. ●06 if ye saie so .

But howe then yf Zwenkeseldius make exclamation on the other syde , Apolog. and 〈◊〉 , that the same verie wordes be not 〈◊〉 , but Hosius owne wordes .

If he will be so wise as to recall his owne woordes , Con. 217 the Churche is mercifull to al that repent . If he wil be so desperat , as to denie that which is in sighte : that shal helpe him nothing in theyr iudgment , which knowe Hosius to be a Catholike .

But howe if the thinges which these men are so desyrous to haue seeme new , Apolog. be founde of greateste Antiquitie ? Contrariwyse , howe if all thinges well nie , whiche they so greately sette out with the name of Antiquitie , hauing bene well & throughly examined , be at length founde to be but newe and deuised of verie late ?

Verely they wil be strange cases , Con. 230. when any suche fall .

But I put case these Abbates and Bishops haue no knowledge ? Apolog. What if they vnderstand nothing what religion is , nor howe we ought to thinke of God ? I put case the pronouncing and ministring of the lawe be decayed in Priestes , and good counsell faile in the Elders , as the Prophete Micheas saieth , the nyght to be vnto them in stede of a vision , and the darkenesse in stede of prophēsiyng ? Or , as Esaias saieth , what if all the watchmen of the Citie are become blinde ?

What if the salt haue lost his propre strength and sauerines ? And , as Christ sayeth , be good for no vse , scant worth the casting on the dunghill ?

The lesse knowledge you would make the bishops and Abbats to haue , Con. 280. the more miracle it wil be , that without knowledge they haue such learning , as their bookes , and preachings , and doinges doe testifie . Take for an example the Catholike Bishops of England . Is there among them all any one against whom you may come with your textes of Micheas , Esaias , or Christ our Sauiour ? Yet , you put the case they haue no knowledge : I aunswere , that your case is a verie hard one . But yet to remedie somewhat this matter , if our Bisshops should be so vnlearned and ignorant , I thinke it were better for the common wealth to set them to Schole , than to put them in prison . Or if they be nothing mete for lerning , to set them rather at libertie , being suche as can hurte the procedinges nothing for lacke of good life and knowledge , than to kepe them in , so preciselie and politikely , as though euerie worde that they should speake , were able to confound an heretik .

Howe then if the Pope haue seene none of these thinges , Apolog. and haue neuer reade either the Scriptures , or the old Fathers , or yet his owne Councels ?

I aunswer ▪ but first , Con. 284 I will also put a case . What if there were no shame in a man ? What if there were no regarde of the sight of God ? What if in all thinges he should seeke for this onlie , howe to fill the peoples eares , and to make them gather of an exceading greate word somewhat at the least ? W●●ld there be anie discretion or staie in suche a one of putting cases , of deniyng moste manifeste truthes , of slaundering worthie persons , and goeyng against sense and reason ? So is it with the Authours of the Apologie . For , how then ( say they ) if the Pope haue neuer readen , either the scriptures , or the old fathers , or yet his owne Councels ? How then ? Are ye not ashamed to put such a case , as neither euer yet happened , nor euer is like to come to passe by any reason ? Shew the occasion of this your suspition and feare ? Declare your selfe to be of greater experience and consideration than those are , which quake for feare where no cause is ? Name anie one Pope that hath not bene so learned , that you might welthink him to haue readen the Scriptures ? Ye can name none at al. You put only a case with , how then if he hath neuer readen the Scriptures ? And I aunswer , that if it be so , it is a great miracle . And that except you bring furth some certificate of it , it is not to be beleued . But neither you meant it ( I suppose ) to affirme it : only ye thought it enoughe , to speake much , as thoughe you could bring furth somwhat , And to leaue it to your Reader to suspect somwhat , although you proued nothing .

I confesse vnto you : I can not tel what to saye to such What thens ? and What yfs ? But if you haue any arte in iudging of them : I pray you , if the skye should fal , were not many larkes like to be taken ? And if such kindes of What yfs ? as you haue put , might be folowed in other examples : were not manie fooles like to be made and preferred by it , and many Wyll Sommers would they not be found in England , which would quickly saie : what if all the Councell be vnlearned ? And what if poore knaues haue as great a gift of wisedome , and knowledge , as the Noble and Learned of the world ? Thus far concerning this matter .

The 11. Chapiter , confuting a blasphemous Lye .

BY manie smal practises , at length an habite is goten , and he that refrayneth not his tongue , and thought in the lesse , shal make it so fond and slipperie , that it will offende in the greater : And the Apologie of England whyles it toke not good heede inough , to speake trulie of men , it is come to that blind audacitie , that it belieth God him selfe . For this cause therefore , that the Authours thereof maie the better consider of theyr rashnes , and the Indifferent Reader may the more plainelie see , that he muste not truste euerie Sprite : I place this lie by it selfe as a singular one , without felowes and without comparison , and I call it as it deserueth , a Blasphemous lye For thus they saie in defence of theyr discession from the Catholike Church .

Though we haue departed from that Church whiche these men cal Catholike , Apolog. & by that meanes get vs enuy amongst them , that want skyl to iudge : yet thys is inough for vs , & it ought to be inough for euerie wyse and good man , and one that maketh accompt of euerlasting life , that we haue gone from that Churche , which had power to erre , which Christ , who can not erre , told so long before , it should erre .

Where find ye this in anie Ghospel ? Con. 322 Or why tel ye not your Reader of it , that he also might perceaue it ? Or why directe ye him not to the place , at the leaste , where he might seeke it ? Can it be any other than wicked impudencie , to make Christ saie that which he neuer saied ? If Christ hath fore●old it in deede , that our Churche shoulde erre , shewe vs that , and there is nothing to be replied . Fathers , Councels , Stories , Apologies , Replies , Reioynders , al other labours maie be spared : onelie that place were to be shewed , where Christ hath so plainly confounded vs . For this you maie be sure , if ye can proue that our Church maie erre , you shal perswade al the sort of vs , to forsake it , and get vs to an other of whiche we maie be sure it can not erre .

But forasmuch as ye can bring furthe no such word of Christ : why make ye such a wretched crake , as though ye were departed from a church that may erre to a better congregation , or as though Christ should beare witnes vnto the goodnes of your doeynges by his foretelling , that our Churche should erre ?

Here ye are to be pressed , and here should ye be enforced to aunswer . For by this place it will quickely be seen , who hath wonne , or who hath lost . For if it were S. Ambrose , or S. Augustin that did affirme anie thing , the Catholike would so farre accepte it , as he should see other Fathers to agree to it : and the heretike woulde so litle make of it , that if all the fathers bysides did saie with them , he woulde not be bound to folow theyr authority , because they al were men . But if Christ once saie the word , both partes wil submitte themselues vnto it , because it is impossible that he should speake anie vntrueth .

His authoritie therefore being , for so good cause , so great with vs : either ye can proue that Christ hath fortold as ye report of him , or ye can not proue it . If ye can not , what an impudencie is it againste Christ himself , so to belie him , and what an iniurie ●s it to the Reader , so to abuse him by the name of Christe ? But if ye can shewe it , where Christ hath foretold , that our Churche shoulde erre : doe so then , and speake not so mightie woordes againste vs , without anie prouing of them at all .

But , howe is it possible , that ye should proue them . Christ hath a Church . For this first ye will not denie , that Christ hath a Church : otherwise his Incarnation and Passion hath bene in vaine , if he haue not her , for whom he toke flesh , The Churc● 〈◊〉 visible . and shed his blud . This church then of Christ , is it visible , or no ? Visible it must nedes be , because it consisteth of men , ●nd men are creatures consisting not of pure and simple soules , but of soules and bodies togeather . And Christ saieth of it , Math 5. The Citie can not be hid that is set vpon an hyl .

Being then visible , The Churche hath order in it Sap. 11. shal ye see good order in it , or no ? Vndoubtedlie he that hath made al things by number , weight , and measure , muste not let that to be without order , which he estemeth most of al other thinges . For 〈◊〉 is the bodie of Christe , Eph. 4. compacted and knit togeather through euerie ioynt , wherewith one ministreth to an other , hauing in it distinction of offices , and duties , to rule , to obey , to preache , to heare , to minister , to receaue .

This Order then , The order in the Church must continue . Dan. 7. shal it for anie tyme be lacking in Christes Church , or shal it continue to the worldes end ? It muste needes continue , because the kingdome of Christ is euerlasting , and no power is hable to destroie the order which he taketh . The Apostle also most expresly telling vs , that Christ hath geuen Apostles , Prophetes , Euangelistes , Pastoures and Teachers , ●ph. 4. to finish and perfite the holy , to worke in the ministery , to build vp the bodie of Christ . Which bodie whereas it can not be perfited , vntill al they be borne that shal be saued soules : it foloweth , that this Order which I speake of , must continue so long vntil all meete togeather in vnity of faith and knowledge of the Sonne of God , which wil not be , til al be borne that shall so meete togeather , and that is at domes day , and not before .

These grounds then so standing , I say vnto you : for as much as the Church of Christ consisteth of a visible cumpanie of men , which is kept in order and vnitie , by reason that euery one knoweth his place and keepeth himselfe within his boundes least he loose his place : and for as much as this cumpanie and order must continue to the worldes end without dissolution or distruction : I say therfore vnto you , that either our Catholike Church is the true Church of Christ , or els that Christ hath no Church at al. For besides our Church ther is none that hath bensene to continue in any form of religion euer sensth ' Apostles time hitherto . As in example , before Luther brake out from his cloister and Rule , ther was not in al the world anyone cumpany , of Lutherans , Zuinglians Caluinists , or any other sect , that braggeth at this day of the light and knouledge of the gospel . Wel ther might be in corners some faithles men and women , that in hart were heretical ( like as at this present if harts were sene , many shuld be found euen in England it self , to dout of th' īmortality of the soule , and th' Incarnation of Christ , &c ) but ther was no open congregation of them , nor approued form of ministration emong them , nor any face or shew of a Church . For yourselues do say , that Martin Luther , and Hulderik Zuinglius wer the first that came to the knowledge and preaching of the Gospel , so that if they were first . it foloweth that before they came , ther was no congregation of protestants in al the world , or if it were , it was not visible , or if it were visible , it had no true preachers , or if it had true preachers , Luther , and Zuinglus need not to be praised of you , for most excellent men euen sent of God to geue light to the world , because there were in the congregations of the sincere in the Lord , as illumined preachers of the word , as they . But wher as the truth is , as you say , that Luther , and Zuinglius were the first that cam to the knoulege and preching of the Gospel ( which is none in dede ) and wher as it remaineth to this day , not only in the bokes that are writen , but in the memories of men that knew those daies , that before Luther and Zuinglius made a tumult in Religion , ther was not in al Christendom any other profession of faith , than was sene in our Church which we know to be Catholik : it foloweth that your church can not possibly be the Church of Christ , the continuance of which your church can so litle be perceiued , that yourselues know , it began to com furth in Frier Luther and Sir Zuinglius time .

In whiche Churche there was so little order , that ye can name neither Superintendent , nor minister , nor preacher , nor bro●her of it that liued before the most excellent men Luther and Zuinglius : and which Churche was so inuisible , that ye neuer sawe so much as any forme of communion table pulpit , vestiment , or other thing vsed in it .

Yet , we see this by experience , that when a cumpany of heretikes doth mete togeather , they wil not be longe without theyr preacher ( euerie one is so readie to be preacher ) and they can not be without some place , and they wil make harde shifte but they will haue a good place : which is the cause , that so many requestes haue bene made to Gouernours of certaine Countries , and so manie Religious houses and Churches haue bene hewed and squared for the receiuing of the newe Ghospel .

Therefore if there was anie congregation extant of this your Church , before Frier Luther lay with Nonne Katerine and begate manie foule and fi lt hic opinions of his owne braine : and if that Church was the true Apostolik Church , and had so continued from the beginning : them had they places to resort vnto , and they vsed such order , as they had receiued of theyr Forefathers , and you are hable to name the place and tel vs theyr Order .

But we can he are of no such thing : ergo there was no Church of yours at all as then . Add then now vnto this , that Luthers Church began with Luther , and so furth euery Church sens Luther hath begon with the Diuiser of it : And consider , that the true Church of Christe can haue no suche discontinuance or interruption , as that it shoulde be saied after manie hundred yeares comming in betwene , in which one forme of Religion was vsed : now is Luther or Zuinglius sent of God to geaue lyght vnto the world : Gather , I saie these thinges together , and ye shal perceiue , that either Christ had no church hundred of yeres together , and that yet he hath none : or els that our Catholike Church is the one and only church of Christ . For alother Churches haue either discontinued , either they haue not bene sensiblie perceiued , either they haue ben within memorie erected , and so they lacke Succession , visiblenes , Antiquitie .

Of whiche three pointes , the Church that Luther and Zuinglius went vnto , when they departed from the Catholikes , had not one . But afterwardes when they became them selues builders of A new Church , and that vpon theyrown heades and Authoritie ( for they acknowledged no creature then liuing for theyr superiour in that mater ) them in dede , it was not long but they gote one of the forsaied three pointes . For they kepte such a sore sturre against all Christendome , that it was most euident , that they were a visible Congregation . But as for succession , and antiquitie , they can neuer get it , because they can neuer proue it : for why , they neuer had it . Yet for Antiquitie they wil striue , and crake ( as the Authours of the Apologie doe ) that they doe come as neere as they possiblye can , to the Church of the Apostles and of the old Fathers . But in the point of Succession , they can not tell , what to aunswer for them selues .

For how , Let the heretiks shew their succession . thinke they is it possible , that the Church of Christ should be without the lauful succession of the Apostles ? Could his wisdom not for see it , that for as much as he minded continually to cal in gheasts vnto his feast : therefore it was necessary to prouide seruants , one after another , for that purpose ? Would his chartie suffer it , that togeather with the Apostles deathes his compassion vpon the poore soules of the world , shuld die , and that ther shuld not be for euery age vnto the worlds end , like officers ( for their authority ) as th' Apostles wer , to dispense his graces and mercies ? Could not his power perfourme it , that come who would , none shoulde be hable to staie the succession of his Lieutenants and Vicars ?

What then can the heretike nowe say , why he hath not a succession ? A thing so necessary for the wisedome of God to prouide , and so natural for his Charitie , to geaue , and so proper , for his almightines to maintain . Verely were it not , that he is almightie , it is impossible by naturall power and reason , that the Bishop of Rome , whom heretikes haue alwaies hated , at whom the greatest Bishopes in the East Churche haue enuied , with whom Lordes and Ladies of the world haue ben so much offended , whom the Barbarous haue so ofte assaulted , whom the Christians at home haue so trobled : that he yet , should continue still , and alwaies haue a successour , it passeth al cumpasse of mans wisdom and prouision , but that he that made him his Vicar in earth , is God almightie in ●eauen and earth .

In some other thinges the heretikes maie so contend with the Catholikes , that it will be hard for the indifferent man certainlie to knowe whom he maie folowe . They wil alleage the same letter of the Scriptures as the Catholikes doe , they wil vse the same councels , and fathers , They wil challenge Antiquitie , and say that they haue descended from the Apostles ( like as Parking Warbecke saied he came of king Edward the fourths bloud , and what so easie as to saie a worde , if one will be desperate , and die rather in field than vnsaie it ) but when they are brought to the mater of succession , in which they lacke the verie bare names , and much more the Actes and Monumentes of such as they should shewe to haue descended lineally and orderly from the Apostles , doune vnto them : then loe they are at a staie , and haue not one wise worde left to them , by which they might aunswer a question so principall and so reasonable .

And yet they crake stil that they are come to the Churche of the Apostles , and of the old Catholike Bishops and Fathers , whiche Churche ( saie they with exceding blindnes or impudencie ) we know hath hithervnto ben sound and perfite , Con. 322. and ( as Tertullian termeth it ) a pure Virgine spotted as yet with no Idolatrie , nor with any foule or shamefull faulte . Note ( Gentle Reader ) that they speake of theyr knowledge , and excepte theyr knowledge be so diuine and ineffable , that neither we can conceaue it , nor they well vtter it : desire them to be so good , as to make vs also knowe it .

For if they knowe the Apostolike Churche , to be hythervnto sounde , perfite , and pure : lette them tell vs where it was in the yeare of our Lorde 1500. or , 1400. or , 1300. The Churche of Rome is knowen , to haue stoode in those yeares : but all the sorte of them holde it for A Principle , that manie errours and faultes were founde then in it . Ergo if ( by theyr saieing ) that Church had errours : what other Church was there , in those dayes whiche they knowe to haue bene sound , perfite , and pure ? They can reken none at all . For al these Weast partes of Christendome folowed the Church of Rome : and they themselues confesse , that the Greeke Churche doeth erre . Ergo , if the Churche of Rome was not sounde , and perfite , in those foresaied yeares , and if the Greeke Churche be notorious for the errours of it : howe doe these Felowes knowe , that the Apostolike Church hath hithervnto bene sound and perfite ?

For what signifieth hithervnto , but euen vnto our time ? And if the Apostolike Church hath ben found and perfite euen vnto our time : there was suche a Churche vndoubtedlie in the yeares of our Lorde 1500. 1400. and 1300. and that Churche was not ( as they holde ) the Churche of Rome : Ergo some other . But there was no other that they knowe to haue ben sound , perfite , and pure : Ergo they speake more then they know , and ioyne themselues close to the Apostolike Church without any succession from the Apostles , and crake of a pure and perfite building without anie foundation . Such is theyr miserable and blind braggyng .

How much more trulie should ye conclude , that for as much as the Apostolike Churche not onely hath bene hytherto sound and pure in doctrin , but must also continue sound and pure vnto the world end : and for as much as no Church hath continued so , but only the church of Rome , therfore he that maketh accompt of euerlasting life , can not possibly attaine vnto it , excepte he come to that Churche , in which only the succession continueth , by which it is easie to ascend vp euen to the chiefe of the Apostles . For to S. Peter our Sauiour saieth : Math. 1● . Thou art ●eter or a Rock , and vpon this Rocke I wil build ●y church , and the gates of hel shal not ●reuail against it . ●uc . 2●● Again for thee ●eter I haue praied , that thy faith should not ●aile and thou being once turned confirme thy bretherne . Againe , to S. Peter he committeth his whole flocke , saying , Ioan , 21. feede my lambes fede my sheepe . To S. Peter then as the singularly chosen the promises are made , and the priuileges are by praier obtained , and the charge by expresse worde is committed .

Nowe , for confirmation of these wordes , consider the effectes that haue folowed , what heresie was euer mainteined by the See of Rome ? What question was there euer in the Church of Christ , and not referred to that See , and determined or pacified by it ? What See hath continued in al tempestes , but onlie the See of Rome ? Who can shewe theyr succession from the Apostles , but onlie the Bishopes of Rome ? What See is preferred in the writinges of holy Fathers , but the See of Rome onlie ? That is the Chaire , vnto which perfidiousnes can haue no accesse , 〈…〉 That is the chaire of vnitie , in which God hath put the doctrine of veritie , 〈…〉 That is the Chaire , in which euill men are constrayned to speake good thinges , that the faith of the Christians may be out of doubt with them , whiles it shall depend vpon the infallible promises of God , and not vpon the deceiptful coniectures of men .

This Churche therefore being the Church which we cal Catholik , in which the chiefe Master of the worke laied S. Peter as the first stone next to himselfe , and in which there is a continual rew of Bishops one vpon an other to the meruelous strengthning and beautifieng of the whole building , against which Church it is impossible , that any wind or weather should so preuaile , as it might ouerturne it ( for it is builded vpon a sure Rocke ) in which Church also there is the presence of the Holyghost sent of our Sauiour to teach it all truth , and to tarie with it for euer : these thinges being most euident and consequent , what a blasphe●ouse lye is it , to say , that Christ hath told longe before , that this Churche should erre ? For what other thing is that to say , but to blaspheme either the wisedon of God , as though he had not erected a church that should not erre : or his power , as though he could not bring it to passe : or his Charitie , as though he would not : or his veritie , as though he had not sayed , poynting to S. Peter , Math. 1● . vpon this Rock I wil build my Churc●e , and againe , I haue prayed for thee Peter , Luc. 22. that thy Faith might not faile ?

But for this tyme this is inough , to note only the blasphemie : he that wil see is more largely betraied and conuinced , let him reade Doctor Saunders booke lately set furth of the Rocke of the Church .

The 12. Of the Contradictions .

Martin Luther & Hulderycke Zuinglius , Apolog. ●74 . a being most excellent men , euen sent of God , to geue light to the worlde , firste came vnto the knowledge of the Gospell .

ERgo before their tyme , Confut. ther was a generall darknes in the world .

I wysse it is not so harde a matter to find out Gods Church : Apolog. .24 . for the Church of God is set vpon an hill & glistering place .

Ergo Luther and Zuinglius could not be the first that shoulde see the Church , Confut. except either Christ had no Church at all in the world when Luther was borne , or except a Citie set vpon an hil ( and for that purpose vndoubtedly sette , that it might be sene ) should not yet be sene , before Luther came in with his lanthorn .

We saye we haue no meede at all , Apolog. 125. by our owne workes and dedes .

Ergo it booteth not to labour , Confut. except it be for nothing .

God hath plucked vs out from the power of darknes , Apolog. 225. to serue the liuing God , to cut away all the remanents of synne , and to worke out Saluation in feare and trembling .

Ergo that is not without some meede and rewarde , Confut. by which we worke our saluation .

Our Aduersaries must be heaued from their mother , Apolog. 194. that is , from this vaine coloure and shadow of the Church .

Ergo ye should vtterly d●spise the Church , Confut. especially as it is now , if yo●r aduersaries mother be of no substance , but a vaine colour only .

To say truely , Apolog. 192. we doe not despise the Chu●che of these men , how so euer it be ordered by them now adayes .

●rgo the Catholiks Church is no vaine colour of a Church , Confut. seing that your selues dare not despise it .

〈◊〉 popes had neuer hitherto leisure to 〈…〉 and earnes●●●e of those matters . Apolog 19. 〈◊〉 , some other cares do let them and diuers waies pul them .

Item , ●61 . they compt these thinges to be but common and trifling studies , and nothing to appertaine to the Popes worthines .

Ergo being so carelesse , Confut. they would neuer haue perceiued the case of their Religion , nor procured men to defend it .

There haue ben wylily procured by the Bishop of Rome , Apolog. certaine persons of eloquence inough , and not vnlearned neither , which should put their helpe to this cause now almoste despaired of .

Item . In deede they perceyued , that their owne cause did euery where goe to wracke .

Ergo it appeareth , Confut. that the Popes haue had care of the cause of Religion .

In this point ( that is , lifting vp the Sacrament ) consisteth nowe all theyr Religion . Apolog 250.

Ergo al is not in salt , Confut. water &c.

In these thinges ( they meane salt , water , Apolog. 255. Oyle , spittle , Palme ) they haue set all their Religion .

Ergo all is not in lifting vp the Sacrament . Confut.

What fault haue they once acknowledged and confessed ? Apolog. 209.

Why burden ye then vs with not amending manifest and ofte confessed faultes ? Confut.

Of so many , Apolog 291. so manifest , so often confessed by them , and so euident errours , what one haue they amended ?

Why aske you then , Confut. what faulte we haue once confessed ?

For so much as we were most ascertened of God his will , Apolog. 327. and comp●ed it a wicked thing , to be careful and ouercumbred about the iudgments of mortal men .

Therefore ye should haue neuer called a Synode of mortal men . Confut. Yet it foloweth .

Therefore we thought good to remedie our Churches by a prouincial Sinod . Apolog.

But what neded a remedy by a Synod , Confut. if mortal mens iudgmentes are not to be cared for ?

Our cause against the wil of Emperoures from the beginning , Apolog. .15 . against the willes of so many Kinges , in spite of the Popes , and almost maugre the head of al men hath taken encreace &c.

You neuer nede then , Confu .. to aske leaue that your Gospel may procede , if it be so victorious and trium●hant , that maugre the head of al men almost , it take encrease .

Let them geue the Ghospell free passage , Apolog 133. let the trueth of Ihesu Christ geue his clere light , & stretche furth his bright beames into all partes . Confut.

Ergo your procedinges are not so currant and forceable , but that ye are faine to aske leaue , that no man stoppe you of your passage .

We might easely be brought to atonement touching all th●se matters , Apolo . 348. were it not that ambition , gluttonie and excesse did let it . Hence commeth their whining , theyr hart is on their halfpeny .

How saie ye then to the ignorance , Confut. errour , Superstition , and Idolatrie , which ye lay to our charge , should there be no odds betwene you and vs for them ? And is this only the matter that causeth dissension , that you contemne glorie , and P●●●sts desire it : you liue temperatly , and Papistes are gloutenous : you kepe a measure in al thinges , and Papistes exceede ? O where is your Charitie , to bea●e with your euen Christians infirmitie ? Or where is your wisdome , to forsake the vnitie of a Religion for the diuersity of manners and conditions ?

For our partes , Apolog. 19● . if we could haue iudged ignorance , error , superstition , Idolatry , mens inuentions , and the same commonly disagreing with the holy Scriptures , either pleased God , or to be sufficient for the obtayning of euerlasting saluation &c we graunt there had bene no cause at all , why we shoud haue lefte these mens companie .

Saie ye so indeede ? Put the case then that in the Catholikes ye might find the faultes of imbition and glotonie ? I know the place where ye saie , that suche causes did let your at one mē● with them Whether your hart them also be not vpon your half-peny ? Peraduenture it is . But without per aduenture , either your mind is not vpon that which ye speake , either ye care not how ye agre with yourselues when ye speak .

The 13. and last Chapter , Of the false Interpretations of the Latine Apologie of the English Church .

Apologie . Confutation . All Bishops be of lyke Preheminence . 53. Correcte , and reade . Be of like merite . Non de●init esse substantia panis , vel natura vini , the substance of the bread or nature of the wine ceaseth not so to be . 98. It is not so in the Latine , And therefore leaue out this So. Mystica symbola manent in priori sua substantia , figura & specie . The my●●icall Signes remaine in their former substance , forme and kind . 100. In their former substance , figure and shape . Pauperes de Lug duno . The Friers of Ly●ns . 206. The poore bretherne rather , or Heretikes of Lyons . Aduocabātur ad Ecclesiasticarum causarum cognitionem . They were called and made acquainted with ecclesiasticall matters . 279. They were called to the hearing and decreeing of Ecclesiasticall matters . Petrus à Soto . Petrus Asotus . 287. Peter of Soto . Cum vocatus esset ab Imperatore ad Concilium C●sariēse . when he was called by the Emperour to his Councell at Cesarea . 297. To the Councel of Cesarea . Videmus pios Principes procurationem Ecclesiarum ab officio suo nun● putasse alienam . We see that good Princes euer tooke the Administration of Ecclesiasticall matters to perteine to their dutie . 304. The proctorship , or procuration , or prouiding for Churches .

NOWE therefore to conclude , whether the Authours of the Apologie in the Church in England , can discharge themselues of so euident faultes as they are burdened withall by D. Harding , it may sone be t●ied by this briefe shewe and Recapitulation which I haue made of theyr faultes . If they cleare themselues , then shall we see wonders . If they faile in theyr defence , God geaue men the grace to build vppon surer ground , than such mens Authorities . So maie they returne againe vnto the Church , from which they haue departed very hastely , and so may they haue forgeuenesse of all their faulties , in the Church , that hereafter they maie liue euerlastinglie .

Amen .