Of the occasion of publishing this controversie ▪ and of the state therof .

AS they that styrr up warrs and strife , “ “ Iudg , 11.13 . &c. impute the cause unto others , which lyeth on them selves : so these our opposers , which wil needs bid us battel , yet begin it as occasioned by us thereunto . They object 1. our private letters , and 2. printed Articles , as reasons moving them to print against us . But how weighty motives these are on their part ; let the discreet reader judge , by these our answers .

1. I wrote no such letters to any , til they had printed their first book , and so possessed the world with the strife . 2. Mine were private , to freinds & brethren ; theirs publick , even to enemies also . 3. They did it of their own proper wil and motion ; I was provoked sundry wayes , by letters from abroad , and freinds at home . For example , one writeth to me thus : Because it is doubted by some , not onely whither [ Mr Jo. ] his practise with you , be answerable to his writing : but also whither in his writing ther be not a discoherence , he being so intricate that many cannot apprehend his meaning : my earnest desire is , and the desire of many others among us , that you would afford us this favour , to signify to us by your letter , the certaynty &c. Another writeth to my freind thus , we not knowing wel to send a letter unto M. A. thought good to write unto you to intreat him to write unto us concerning the differences that be amongst you &c. Those that come over of M. J. his side , say they hold no more concerning the Eldership , then M. A. hath written against M. Smyth : others say to the contrary ; we doo therfore intreat M. A. to certifie us of the truth &c. Vpon these and the like motives there and here by some that went over to their freinds , I have written as I was necessarily occasioned privately , of the differences between us ; making account my letters would come to our opposites hand , as is fallen out : for which I am not sory , save so farr as hereby they occasion their own evils to be further manifested , which I had rather ( if so it pleased God ) they were hid and buryed by repentance . 4. Themselves have doon the like , and even this Advertiser wel knowes , who wrote to a freind in Engl. perswading against us that saying of the Apostle , Receiv him not to house neyther bid him God speed : 2. Joh. 10. which letter ( if we would have sought occasion as they have , ) we might ere this have printed , with the answer . By this al may see , how partial these men are , which advertise the world of our writing coversly ; when themselves ( if it be a fault ) are guilty of the same .

2. Touching the printed Articles , so often spoken of in their Advertisement ; as we had no hand in , or knowledge of the publishing of them : so must we now shew the reason , of giving them out , as we did , being even against our wills forced therunto , by the frowardnes of these our Opposers .

1. First , for the Scornful that printed those articles , they † † Lawnes book . pag. 78. 82. bear the world in hand , as if the Congregation wherof I am , and my self had sued others at the law , for the meeting howse : wheras the contrary was publikly agreed in our Church , that we would rather bear the wrong , than trouble the Magistrate with our controversie : neyther have we ever commenced such a suit . 2. But wheras two of our brethren and a widow , were cheif owners of the building , they sought first in private freindly manner to come to agreement with their opposite brethren , but could not ; then they desired to put it to the arbitrement of indifferent citizens , but the other party refused : wherupon our brethren signifyed to vs , that they must seek help of the Magistrate , for the estate of some of them was such as they could not bear the loss and dammage . And asked us , if the churches right were caled in question ▪ ( for our adversaries plea was the church the church , ) what should be answered before the magistrate ? We , with signification as before , that we would rather suffer wrong , then sue at law ; yet could not hinder them of seeking for their particular right : & if in so doing the churches right were called in question , that then some certayn appointed , should answer for the same . 3. Those our brethren ( before they went to the Iudges , ) intreated the help of the Burgemasters , the cheif of the City : who laboured by perswasion with our Opposites , to put the matter to the arbitrement of good men chosen by both sides , but they stil peremptorily refused . 4. When it was brought before the Iudges , they also at first both perswaded unto , and nominated two indifferent men to hear the case : but when our opposers came before them , they refused to stand to their arbitrement . The Iudges the second time appointed them , with a mulct or forfeit upon those that refused their arbitrement : but our adverse partie , persisted in their refusal as before : and urged sentence of the Magistrates , and pleaded that they which build on another mans ground , are by law to loose their building ; which plea they made , because the assurance of the ground was made in the name of one man onely , ( now among them , ) whose name was used but in trust , for any other might have had the same as wel as hee , as was proved before the Magistrate by sufficient witness . Now unto these Arbiters appointed , did our brethren willingly referr the cause , and to them ( inquiring of the differences ) were those Articles exhibited : which it seemeth those Libellers , or their Scribe , by some means that wee know not of , procured a copy of , and so printed them . What cause now have these our opposers , to find such fault with our giving out those articles , which we were constreyned by them selves to doo , unless we should have suffred the truth to have bene troden down ? They rather have cause to acknowledge their own stiff & refractary cariage , who would not yeild to any good counsel given them , by our brethren , by Arbiters , or by Magistrates ; til law forced them therunto : and so have occasioned many wayes , our common adversaries to rejoyce .

3. But we have not ( sayth the † † pag. 17. Advertisement ) as we ought , handled and justified the causes for which we separated ; which were annexed at the end of the Treatise on Mat. 18.17 . but have gone about also to possess the world with other matters . So † † pag. 31. after they urge agayn this point , that we leav the Treatise unanswered , which was purposely written upon that occasion and argument . I answer . 1. We handled and justified the causes for which we separated , by word of mouth in much disputing , before we left them : and this for them was as we ought , and sufficient , according to the Apostles practise , Act. 1● . 8.9 . And now we are by their importunacie , caled to handle and justifie them before the world in writing : which whither we doo as we ought , the sequel shal shew , to the judicious reader . 2. It is not we , but they which have gone about to possess the world with other matters : for the things we charge them with , themselves in effect acknowledge ; and as wel as they can doo defend them . But their declaration against us in the Treat . on Mat. 18. is defective ; and the 7. points they article † † Advertis . p. 27. &c. now against us , are superfluous ; and injuriously wrested against us , as our answers to them shal manifest . The controversie in deed began upon the exposition of Mat. 18.17 . but so as we have heard in times past Anabaptists begin controversie upon Mat. 28.19 . who have reasoned both from that and al other scriptures , against the baptising of infants : so these opposites from Mat 18.17 . and al other scriptures that we could bring , reasoned against the power of the people in judging syn & synners . We formerly * * Apol , p. 65. professing the Church there to be Elders and people joyntly : they now striving that it is not so , but the Elders onely , we knew it must be eyther the name or the power of the church , that they would have . And we never thought them so vayn , as to make such a styrr for a name or title : we held therfore to the power which Christ hath given to his church for judging of them that are within , 1. Cor. 5.4.12.13 . Of this when we pressed them , they first gave this answer , that the Elders had the rightful power to excommunicate though without and against the consent of all the people , but not the able power : even as David had rightful power to put Ioab to death , but was not able , because others were too hard for him : 2. Sam. 3.39 . To which we answered ; in matters of this life , which are external , men may be hindred by outward force : but in the spiritual administration of the Church not so : Gods word ( by which they administer ) is not in bonds , 2 Tim. 2.9 . But if one man onely have the power from Christ , he may use it , † † Ier. 1.9.10 against all the world . So upon better consideration , a week after , they affirmed the Elders to have both rightful power , and able power , to excommunicate , though without and against the consent of all the people . And thus was ful power put in the Elders hands : & of the people they sayd , their power and right was as in Israel , and in the primitive churches . But being asked what that was ? answer was made , it was to be inquired . So the poor people are left to seek their right wher they can find it : the Elders have ynough , they have found that they sought for .

As Paul to disswade the Corinthians from their errour in denying the resurrection , shewed them the dangerous consequences of the same , as Ԡ Ԡ 1 Cor. 15 13 , 14. &c. that if ther be no resurrection of the dead , then Christ is not risen , then the Apostles preaching was vayn , then the Churches fayth was also vayn , &c. so I held it my duty to shew the people the consequences of the former error , which though at first it may seem smal , yet is it as a strong fort in the mouth of a country , which if the enemy win , the whole land is soon lost . For if all the power of receiving in and casting out , were given to the Elders : then our Church which was first gathered and constituted , did receiv in and cast out members without Elders , was not planted by the power of Christ ; neyther had they authoritie to set up Elders if they could not agayn vpon desert depose them , and if they had not power to judge their brethren , much less could they judge their Elders . And here came in the gathering of the church by vertue of popish baptisme , and of receiving the ministery from Rome , as wel as the baptisme , and the like , which our opposites were and must necessarily be driven unto , for defense of their errour . And as for the first gathering of this church , they sayd an error in the doing , overthroweth not the action : for Isaak erred in blessing Iaakob in sted of Esau , yet the action did stand . To which we answered , that it was doon by a person who had power from God to give the blessing , and the action was also confirmed by the evidence of Gods spirit afterward : but this people ( upon our opposites doctrine ) had no authority from God , to doo as they did , neyther could they shew any confirmation of the work by God , if our former grounds fayl us .

The sentence given in the end by the Elders that leaned to the Pastors error , was , not that discourse they speak of at the end of the Treatise on Mat. 18. ( for that was privately penned afterward by the Pastor himself , ) but a breif and yet large approbation of the things which the Pastor had shewed , to be the truth ; and a promise that by the grace of God they would so practise . Vpon which sentence giving , we on the contrary approved our former profession published , and shewed sundry reasons ( which hereafter shal be set down ) why we could not yeild to their new vowed practise .

And because they alwayes sought to extenuate the controversie , as if it were but a strife about words , or about the meaning of Mat. 18.17 . We purposely prevented it , signifying expressly , before we parted , that we would bear with them in their understanding of Mat. 18.17 . so as they would yeild the point in controversie , ( which was about the Churches power , ) from other scriptures , shewing it also by an other case , that if we had to deal upon John . 1. with an Arian that denyes the godhead of Christ , if he would plainly and sincerely yeild to the truth of that doctrine , though he thought it not proved by Iohn . 1 , ( where yet it is evidently proved , ) we would bear with him therin . And this we still offer unfeighnedly to these our opposite brethren , let them yet directly and plainly renounce the error it self touching the power of the church now ingrossed into the Elders hands , and the other errours that necessarily flow from the same : and we wil bear with their judgement concerning Mat. 18.17 . though we think of it otherweise that doo they .

Moreover seing we offred much more , ( which concerneth not onely Mat. 18.17 . but al other scriptures , ) that we would notwithstanding our difference of judgement , have continued together , if our former practise might have been reteyned ; and themselves in their Advertisement * * pag. 73. can not deny this : how doo they then bear the world in hand , that the breach among us was for the understanding of Math. 18.17 ?

Touching their Treatise on Mat. 18.17 . the causes why I have not answered it are . 1. When others heretofore ( as namely Mr. Smyth ) wrote against the truth which they formerly professed : we al thought best not to answer , til the second and third time we were excedingly provoked : for we considered how the common adversary would rejoyce at our intestine troubles . The same I minded here ▪ and these men should ( if they were not partial ) have doon the like . 2. I had experience , in former dealing with M. Smyth , of his unstayednes , that would not stand to the things which himself had written : I mind the like in these Opposites , who are not setled for the constitution of their Church and Ministerie , upon any ground that I know of , unless it be popish succession . Their former writings about the Church and ministery , and their present estate , wil not stand togither . Seing those books are unanswered by others , they should answer them ( if they can ) themselves ; and shew us by Gods word what is allowable , what disallowable in them . Till they doo this , who would willingly deal with them ? 3. Ther are 9. reasons in that our “ “ pag. 62.63 . Apologie to confirm the power of the Church now in question : the foresaid Treatise dealeth but against one of them , leaving the rest there , and whatsoever is written of that argument in other our books , unanswered : what reason have they to cal so upon others to write , when so much is already written ? If they yeild us the cause , upon the other reasons , we wil not strive about the meaning of one scripture , as before we shewed .

4. The meaning of Mat. 18.17 . is handled by Mr. Robinson against Mr Bernard ( whose book , our opposites so much respected , ) and the false gloses upon that text , sufficiently refuted : why doo not these men answer the things there written , but cal styl for more ; as if al men must leav other studies , to folow them in their hunting for preeminence . 5. I have had intelligence of Mr. Robinsons further purpose to answer in particular that their treatise , as occasion shal be given . And in deed , I for the love and respect that I have alwayes had to these now opposite brethren ; have desired their conviction rather by others then by my self ; who are both better able to perform it , and are likely to be more regarded then I , and to doo it with less publik scandal to the world : who desire nothing more , then to see us , that were so neerly joyned , to sharpen our penns one against another . Thus have I been stayed hitherto , though now as the things in that Treatise are repeted in this their Advertisement , I shal discover also the insufficiencie of their reasons there alleged .

Now as the Advertiser * * pag. 18.19 sheweth by examples of troubles in ●hurches heretofore , that the godly wise should not be offended at these dissensions : accordingly doo I desire all syncere harted for to walk . And further that he himself with others , would look into the 3. particulars that he allegeth . 1. For the troubles in Corinth , the Apostle composeth by shewing the Church their place in Christ above their ministers , 1. Cor. 3.21.22.23 . which might also if it were wel observed , end the strife that is now among us .

2. The contention about Easter , as it was evil in it self , being about mens traditions : so was it as ill caried . For they learned not to redress things as Paul before taught , 1. Cor. 3. but contrariweise as Hierom after telleth “ “ Comment in Tit. 1.5 . us ▪ by setting up one Elder about others , that the seeds of schismes might be taken away . Which humane wisdom furthering the mysterie of Antichrist so far prevailed , that about this their Easter strife , Victor Bishop of Rome , determined to have excommunicated the East churches , and had doon it , but † † Euseb. l ▪ 5. c. 26. that Irenaeus blamed him and stayed it . Thus ambition having wrung the power first out of the whole Churches hands into the Elders onely , and then out of the Elders hands joyntly , into ones alone : began to work factions and styrrs in the churches , worse then ever before .

3. The troubles which they speak of , in the English church at Frankford in Q. Maryes dayes , is even a picture of our present calamities , and worthy of perpetual remembrance . For there when M. Horn the pastor with his felow Elders vsurped authority above the church ; they were wel withstood by the body of the congregation , among whom were sundry men of wisdom and learning . And to appease that strife , by the Magistrates counsel they agreed upon articles , which directly overthrow the errors so stood for by these our opposers . For thus the printed Discourse of the troubles of that church sayth .

* * Discourse of troub . at Frankford . p. 11● . &c. The Discipline reformed and confirmed by the authoritie of the church and magistrate .

Art. 38. The ministers and seniors severally and jointly , shal have no authority to make any maner of decrees , or ordinances to bind the congregation or any member therof : but shal execute such ordinances and decrees as shal be made by the congregation and to them delivered .

44. The ministers and seniors elect , have authoritie as the principal members of the congregation , to govern the sayd congregation according to Gods word , and the discipline of the church : and also to cal togither and assemble the sayd congregation for causes and at times , as shal to them seem expedient . Provided alwayes , that if any dissention shal happen between the ministers and seniors , or the more part of them , and the body of the congregation , or the more part of it : and that the sayd ministers and seniors in such controversie , being desired therto , wil not assemble the congregation ; that then the congregation may of it self come togither , and consult and determine as concerning the sayd controversie or controversies , and the sayd assembly to be a lawful congregation , and that which they , or the more part of them so assembling , shal judge or decree , the same to be a lawful decree and ordinance , of sufficient force to bind the whole congregation , and every member of the same .

46. Item in case some doo depart [ out of the sayd congregation ] that yet not withstanding , those which stil remayn , ( if they be the greater part ) to be a lawful congregation : and that which they or the more part of them shal decree , to be a lawful decree , of force to bind the whole body , ministers , seniors , deacons , and every other member or members therof without exception .

53. If any of the congregation be offensive &c. to any of the brethren , so that the offense be private , he is first brotherly to admonish him alone . If that doo not prevayl , to cal one or 2. witnesses . If that also doo not prevayl , then to declare it to the ministers and Elders , to whome the Congregation hath given authoritie to take order in such cases , according to the discipline of the Church .

54. Ther be 3. degrees of ecclesiastical discipline : first , that the offender acknowlege his fault , and shew himself penitent before the ministers and seniors . The 2. that if he wil not so doo , as wel his original crime , as also his contempt of the ministers &c. be openly declared by one of the ministers , before the whole congregation &c. The 3. that if he remayn stil obstinate before the whole congregation , after a time to him by the whole congregation limitted to repent in , he then shal be openly denounced excommunicate : which excommunication , seing it is the uttermost penaltie of ecclesiastical power , shal not therfore be executed until the matter be heard by the whole Church , or such as it shal specially appoint ther unto .

62. If al the ministers and seniors [ which have authority to hear and determine &c. ] be suspected , or found parties , or if any appeal be made from them : that then such appeal be made to the body of the congregation , the ministers , seniors , and parties excepted : and that the body of the congregation may appoint so many of the congregation to hear & determine the sayd matter or matters , as it shal seem good to the Congregation .

65. That the Ministers and Seniors , and every of them , be subiect to ecclesiastical discipline , and correction , as other private members of the Church be .

67. If any controversie be upon the doubtful meaning of any word or words in the discipline ; that first it be referred to the ministers & seniors . And if they cannot agree therupon , then the thing to be brought and referred to the whole congregation .

These and the like things were agreed of by that church , to suppress the exorbitant power which the ministers then chalenged : wherby the reader may see , 1. what the learned and most conscionable of the church of England held heretofore : which if they had continued in , would have freed them of al antichristian prelacie , the bane of so many churches . 2. That this opinion of the churches power above the Elders , is not new , or first professed by us , as some doo reproch us . 3. And that these Advertisers , which now oppose against us , if they had looked upon the examples which themselves alledge , might have seen their errours resisted by others , against which the Lord hath now caled us also to witness . He vouchsafe to be with us in this busynes ; and guide my hart and hand , to defend his truth .